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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

COMMENT TELECONFERENCE

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

OCTOBER 13, 2015

+ + + + +

The Board met telephonically, Jean 

Richardson, Ph.D., Chair, presiding.

PRESENT

JEAN RICHARDSON, Ph.D., NOSB Chair; Consultant

and organic maple syrup producer

TRACY FAVRE, NOSB Vice Chair; Consultant

HAROLD AUSTIN, NOSB Secretary; Zirkle Fruit 

Company

CARMELA BECK, Driscoll Strawberry Associates,

 Inc.

COLEHOUR J. BONDERA, Kanalani Ohana Farm

TOM CHAPMAN, Clif Bar & Company

LISA de LIMA, MOM's Organic Market

ZEA SONNABEND, California Certified Organic 

Farmers (CCOF)

ASHLEY SWAFFAR, VitalFarms

JENNIFER TAYLOR, Ph.D., Florida A&M University

FRANCIS THICKE, Ph.D., Radiance Dairy

C. REUBEN WALKER, Ph.D., Southern University and

A&M College
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STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT

LISA BRINES

EMILY BROWN ROSEN

PAUL LEWIS, NOP Standards Division Director

MILES MCEVOY, Deputy Administrator

DEVON PATTILLO

JENNY TUCKER, NOP Associate Deputy Administrator, 

Technology Facilitator

JESSICA WALDEN

SONYA WILSON

COMMENTERS PRESENT

KEVIN BOYCE, Agricultural Conversation

JESSICA BELZ, Fiberstar, Inc.

LAURA BATCHA, Organic Trade Association

PATTY LOVERA, Food & Water Watch

RONALD GONZALEZ, Dole Tropical Products Latin

WEST MATHISON, Stemilt Growers

RHODES YEPSEN, Biodegradable Products Institute

AMBER POOL, CCOF

MARNI KARLIN, Organic Trade Association

AMELIE HAYTE, GNT USA, Inc.

PAMELA SAUNDERS, CROPP Cooperative

BRIAN LEHMANN, Consumer

HILDA TOVAR, Berrymex

KATHERINE DiMATTEO, Wolf, DiMatteo + Associates

EILEEN HOURIHAN McCARTHY, Registered Dietician
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A-G-E-N-D-A 

Welcome and Introduction

Dr. Paul Lewis........................... 5 

Chair Jean Richardson.................... 6 

General Comment / Other - Manure .............. 8 

Kevin Boyce

HS 2017 Sunset Reviews 205.601Q .............. 15

Jessica Belz

General Comment / MS - Prevention Strategy

Guidance for Excluded Methods ................ 22

Laura Batcha

General Comments ............................. 36

Patty Lovera

CS 2017 Sunset Reviews ....................... 44

Ronald Gonzalez

CS 2017 Sunset Reviews; CS - Lignin Sulfonate;

General Comment; HS 2017 Sunsets; LS 2017 

Sunset ....................................... 55

West Mathison

CS 2017 Sunset Reviews ....................... 65

Rhodes Yepsen

CS 2017 Sunset Reviews ....................... 72

Amber Pool

HS Proposal - Reclassification of Alginic Acid;

Reclassification of Carnauba Wax; PDS Report PPM

Updates/Revisions ............................ 75

Marni Karlin 

HS 2017 Sunset Reviews 205.606 ............... 79

Allen Widman

HS 2017 Sunset Reviews 205.606 ............... 88

Amelie Hayte
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HS 2017 Sunset Reviews 205.606 Celery Powder

Pamela Saunders......................... 92

General Comment / MS - Prevention Strategy

Guidance for Excluded Methods ............... 102

Brian Lehmann

CS 2017 Sunset Reviews ...................... 107

Hilda Tovar

General Comment / Other ..................... 113

Katherine DiMatteo

CS Proposal - Lignin Sulfonate, Sulfuric Acid,

General Comment / Other ..................... 120

Eileen Hourihan McCarthy

Summary and Closing Remarks

Chair Jean Richardson.................. 125

Dr. Paul Lewis......................... 126
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 1:05 p.m.

3 DR. LEWIS: I'd like to welcome NOSB 

4 members and members of the public for today's 

5 teleconference.

6 We appreciate the NOSB members 

7 presentation on this call today and to all the 

8 members' efforts and for serving on the Board.

9 I'm really excited about this 

10 opportunity for the Board to conduct this meeting, 

11 the public comment process via teleconference 

12 really supplies the opportunity for greater public 

13 access to NOSB.

14 These meeting, along with other 

15 meetings, public meetings of the NOSB operates 

16 under the Federal Advisory Committee Act. 

17 I'm looking forward to hearing the 

18 comments that will be occurring today and the --

19 (Telephonic interference.)

20 DR. LEWIS: -- in addition to the actual 

21 face-to-face meeting we'll be having the last week 

22 in October.
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1 It will help the Board preparing their 

2 recommendations to USDA.

3 I want to again thank members of the 

4 public for participating in today's 

5 teleconference. And I'm looking forward to a very 

6 productive and engaging meeting today. Thank you.

7 DR. TUCKER: Okay, we're going to turn 

8 it over to Jean Richardson now. So Jean, welcome. 

9 As Board chair she's going to be moderating the 

10 public comment process. So let's do a sound check. 

11 Jean, can you hear us?

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Hello. Yes, I can 

13 hear all of you and I hope you can hear me too.

14 DR. TUCKER: Yes, we can. Please go 

15 ahead.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Very good. Okay, 

17 the first thing is this is the first time we've done 

18 this everybody out there in internet-land or 

19 wherever you are.

20 And it looks as though there are 68 

21 people on audio and 60 on the web, looking at the 

22 numbers that I have on my computer screen. 
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1 So, what we have to just all do is try 

2 to think of ourselves at some gorgeous meeting 

3 place. The sun is shining outside and it looks 

4 just great. And we're forced to be inside to be 

5 on this call, but it's going to be good fun anyway.

6 I just want to remind all of you that 

7 as you're speaking if you're using your speaker 

8 phone you're never as clear as if you're sort of 

9 speaking directly into a phone.

10 So when you are giving your 

11 presentations be sure you speak as clearly and as 

12 loudly as is appropriate so that we can all of you 

13 hear.

14 Because there's bound to be some 

15 background and some odd little kinks that happen 

16 during the next couple of hours.

17 I'm really pretty excited to have this 

18 opportunity to expand our public comment period.

19 We still have just as many people going 

20 to be talking as usual at the in-person meeting. 

21 And so this is allowing us to hear from 

22 more people, people that couldn't come, or can't 
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1 take the time or afford necessarily to fly all the 

2 way to Vermont for the next meeting.

3 So it's really great. And I'm just 

4 delighted to be able to have this opportunity 

5 today.

6 So hopefully you'll excuse our 

7 technological mistakes and errors as we try to 

8 start a new and expanded way of taking public 

9 comment which is so critically important to all of 

10 us as Board members.

11 So, I will ask the first person to speak 

12 on my list is Kevin Boyce. And on deck we will have 

13 Jessica Belz. So, over to you Kevin if you are 

14 there.

15 MR. BOYCE: I am here. Thank you very 

16 much. 

17 I wanted to address the Board on some 

18 of the current standards on the pathogen kill for 

19 organic material, processed manures specifically.

20 We have a technology that allows us a 

21 pathogen kill in a nonthermal manner. So 

22 currently the two guidelines for the elimination 
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1 of pathogen within manure product is by composting 

2 or by the addition of heat to the process.

3 We have -- our technology is a little 

4 bit unique again, and it's a nonthermal technology 

5 that has a pathogen kill far greater than we can 

6 achieve with even a composting process. And it's 

7 much more uniform. So we don't have any spots make 

8 it through the process without a pathogen kill.

9 It's a very consistent pathogen kill 

10 and all material is subjected to the pathogen kill.

11 So our process is unique in the fact, 

12 again it doesn't use a thermal technology. It 

13 actually uses a shock wave. We send the material 

14 through a venturi that gets a shock wave.

15 When it hits the shock wave it implodes 

16 the product, the manures, swine, chicken, cattle, 

17 and so forth.

18 And in that implosion of the product 

19 there's a massive pathogen kill which puts us far 

20 below the requirements outlined by the NOSB and NOP 

21 for pathogen kill.

22 So we are hoping at some point in time 
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1 to find a way that our equipment can be listed 

2 possibly as an alternative to the composting or 

3 heat process for pathogen kill.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And that's it, 

5 Kevin? 

6 MR. BOYCE: So, that's kind of it at a 

7 high level. And I just wanted to take some 

8 questions from you folks and see what we might have 

9 to do to make that happen.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

11 very much, Kevin. Are there questions from the 

12 Board or comments? 

13 DR. TUCKER: It looks like Francis has 

14 a question.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Francis, yes. 

16 Francis.

17 MEMBER THICKE: Can you hear me?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

19 MR. BOYCE: I can hear you, Francis, 

20 yes.

21 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. Can you explain 

22 what you mean by implode? Is that a biological 
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1 process, a physical process? What does that mean?

2 MR. BOYCE: It's a physical process. 

3 So, and again, I'm sure you guys understand all this 

4 but just in case somebody doesn't.

5 So we send the material through the 

6 machine. We have a pre-process that gets it to 

7 about a 70 percent moisture level in the product.

8 And then goes through the second piece 

9 of technology here that we're talking about which 

10 is pulling it, and basically enters an air tube.

11 At initial entrance into that tube the 

12 product moves about 100 miles an hour. The air 

13 flow is about 100 miles an hour.

14 And then it goes through a venturi which 

15 is basically like squeezing the garden hose a 

16 little bit, right?

17 So it picks up speed. And by the time 

18 it hits the treatment area it's going about Mach 

19 1.

20 At the same time there's an air flow 

21 that causes a paper thin shock wave.

22 When the material hits that shock wave 
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1 the material actually implodes, in a physical 

2 implosion.

3 Makes it into a powder form, but also 

4 in that process the moisture molecules implode as 

5 well. And those are taken out as HNOs.

6 So we get to a point where it's an 8 

7 percent moisture level. So we go from 70 percent 

8 moisture level to 8 percent moisture level in the 

9 treatment area.

10 The other unique piece of this process 

11 is that in that same shockwave area or treatment 

12 area the E. coli and so forth also implode. And 

13 they're removed, the vast majority of those are 

14 removed through that process as well.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, excellent. 

16 Thank you very much, Kevin.

17 I should just point out that the 

18 National List is composed of materials and I think 

19 what you're presenting us with which is very 

20 interesting is a process.

21 And I'm hoping that you will also have 

22 submitted some written comments or some other 
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1 written materials that we could look at at a later 

2 date.

3 MR. BOYCE: I have submitted that.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank you.

5 MR. BOYCE: Earlier. So I was hoping 

6 to have it in your hands today, but it sounds like 

7 it didn't get there.

8 But those have been submitted.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

10 very much. 

11 The next presenter is Jessica Belz and 

12 on deck will be Jessica Green.

13 DR. TUCKER: Jean, I'm sorry. 

14 Jennifer Taylor also had a question.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, I'm sorry, 

16 that's not showing up on my screen. Okay.

17 DR. TUCKER: She just chatted to the 

18 chairperson, not to all co-presenters. So I can 

19 see it but you cannot.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay.

21 MEMBER TAYLOR: Sorry about that 

22 process. Can you hear me?
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1 MR. BOYCE: Yes.

2 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you so very much 

3 for your presentation.

4 I wondered if there is a concern for 

5 residues of pesticides, process aids in particular 

6 and others within the process.

7 How do you see that taking place?

8 MR. BOYCE: I'm sorry, we haven't 

9 focused a lot on pesticides in the animal manures. 

10 What we were most concerned with were 

11 the NOP standards which were for the salmonella and 

12 the fecal E. coli and so forth.

13 So I'm not really sure I can discuss 

14 today at least the pesticide residue in that 

15 product.

16 MEMBER TAYLOR: Okay, thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

18 Jessica Belz.

19 MS. BELZ: Okay, thank you. This is 

20 Jessica Belz. I am director of quality assurance 

21 at Fiberstar with its headquarters in River Falls, 

22 Wisconsin, and a production facility in Clewiston, 
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1 Florida.

2 I was going to be discussing Sunset 2017 

3 regarding substance 205.601Q which is orange pulp, 

4 dried.

5 I don't know if you guys received my 

6 slides yesterday but I had a few diagrams to show 

7 you as well.

8 But the topic here is our understanding 

9 is that during the preliminary stage of the current 

10 sunset review the Handling Subcommittee believes 

11 that there might be a sufficient supply of organic 

12 materials now available to manufacture the dried 

13 orange pulp, and that this is the reason that the 

14 NOSB is currently considering its removal from the 

15 National List.

16 So for that reason I'm just going to 

17 talk for the majority of the period about the 

18 question of availability.

19 So first of all, I want to make sure that 

20 you understand how dried orange pulp is 

21 manufactured.

22 The dried orange pulp is produced under 
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1 patent protection exclusively by Fiberstar at our 

2 single facility in Clewiston, Florida.

3 This location was selected because the 

4 availability of raw materials is dependent on the 

5 orange juice industry.

6 According to various sources Florida 

7 citrus is typically grown for use in processing 

8 while citrus grown in other parts of the country 

9 is more often for fresh fruit.

10 Are you guys able to see my slides?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No, I don't see 

12 them. Are they being posted, Jenny?

13 MS. ARSENAULT: Jessica, this is 

14 Michelle. I'm sorry, I didn't get your slides 

15 yesterday so we don't have them up.

16 MS. BELZ: Oh, that's fine. Okay, we 

17 can continue without them.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: When they come in I'll 

19 make sure that I forward them.

20 MS. BELZ: Okay. So, just discussing 

21 how the processing works.

22 Every box of oranges is approximately 
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1 90 pounds of oranges. So from a box of 90 pounds 

2 of oranges the juice facility yields approximately 

3 5 pounds of wet pulp.

4 Because the moisture content of that 

5 pulp is approximately 95 percent the 5 pounds of 

6 wet pulp generates only about 4 ounces of dried 

7 pulp.

8 So to reiterate, a 90 pound box of 

9 oranges produces only 4 ounces of dried orange 

10 pulp.

11 So the process of dried orange pulp 

12 itself is a continuous process that produces 1,000 

13 pounds of dried orange pulp or more per hour.

14 When our existing dried orange pulp 

15 facility was established we determined that the 

16 minimum time and quantity needed to make product 

17 at a steady state condition is 20 hours, so 

18 approximately 20,000 pounds of dried pulp.

19 And because that moisture content of 

20 the starting pulp is 95 percent it takes 400,000 

21 pounds of wet pulp to produce one of those batches 

22 of 20,000 pounds of dried orange pulp.
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1 So in order to produce a single batch 

2 of organic dried orange pulp a steady supply of 

3 400,000 pounds of organic wet pulp needs to be 

4 sourced.

5 So keeping in mind that that 400,000 

6 pounds of wet pulp is the minimum amount needed to 

7 produce one 20-hour day of production let's talk 

8 about the organic pulp availability.

9 So first of all, the citrus growing 

10 season is typically six months long, December 

11 through May, and the organic harvest is spread out 

12 over that entire six-month season, making it 

13 infeasible to collect and store any available wet 

14 pulp so that it may be processed into a single day 

15 of dried orange pulp production.

16 According to the USDA's Certified 

17 Organic Production Survey released in October 2012 

18 there were 233 farms producing organic oranges in 

19 the United States, and of those only 18 of them were 

20 located in Florida.

21 Now, remember that Florida oranges are 

22 those typically used for processing while those 
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1 from other states are for the fresh fruit market.

2 So, most of the organic production is 

3 actually grown in California. 

4 Of the limited amount of organic 

5 oranges that are put into juice a large percentage 

6 actually ends up in the pulp in the orange juice 

7 itself.

8 A typical orange juice contains 6 to 12 

9 percent pulp so consequently only about 35 percent 

10 of the orange pulp is removed after juicing and 

11 would be available for further processing.

12 This is according to the Handbook of 

13 Citrus Byproducts and Processing Technology by 

14 Robert Braddock.

15 Referencing again the USDA Organic 

16 Survey of 2014 there were less than 6,000 tons of 

17 oranges in Florida that were sold as organic in 

18 2014.

19 Using the conversions I told you about 

20 earlier this is equivalent to 133,000 boxes of 

21 oranges which would yield at the most 667,000 

22 pounds of wet organic pulp over the entire 
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1 six-month growing season.

2 If we figure that only about 35 percent 

3 of that wet pulp would be available after the juice 

4 processors have collected what they need for juice 

5 that would leave only 233,000 pounds of wet orange 

6 organic pulp for the entire year from the entire 

7 state.

8 Remember that twice that amount or a 

9 minimum of 400,000 pounds of wet pulp is necessary 

10 to produce just one day of dried organic pulp 

11 production.

12 DR. TUCKER: Okay, we're going to leave 

13 -- the timer is running. You timed that 

14 beautifully. So we're going to let you hear what 

15 it hears like when you run out of time.

16 So for public commenters that come on 

17 after this when you hit your five-minute point 

18 that's the noise you're going to hear to let you 

19 know that your time was out.

20 So, thank you for timing that so 

21 beautifully to let us demonstrate that technology.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jessica, thank you 
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1 for your comments. And you should be assured that 

2 all members of the Board will be receiving your 

3 written materials, the slides, as part of the 

4 general comments which will aid the Handling 

5 Subcommittee and the whole Board.

6 Are there any questions from Board 

7 members? I'm not seeing any question marks come 

8 up on my screen. Your presentation was very clear 

9 and much appreciated, Jessica. Thank you.

10 MS. BELZ: Okay, thank you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

12 Jessica Green and she'll be followed by Laura 

13 Batcha. Jessica. Jessica Green? Jessica 

14 Green, citizen commenter had some general 

15 comments. 

16 Okay, I guess she's not there at the 

17 present time. I'm sure technologically you'll let 

18 me know if she turns up.

19 So therefore Laura Batcha, you are up 

20 and Patty Lovera will be next.

21 MS. BATCHA: Hi, can you all hear me? 

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.
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1 MS. BATCHA: Great, thank you. This 

2 is Laura Batcha with the Organic Trade Association. 

3 And I will see you all in Vermont in a 

4 couple of weeks, but I thought I'd take the 

5 opportunity to provide my comments during the 

6 webinar and free up a few minutes for you during 

7 your onsite meeting with your big workload.

8 So I'm going to comment on just a few 

9 areas. And you'll hear more about our extensive 

10 written comments onsite in Vermont.

11 I want to start with thanking the 

12 subcommittee for its continued work on the topic 

13 of GMOs and for the opportunity to provide some 

14 comments on the Materials Subcommittee's proposal 

15 on the prevention strategy guidance for excluded 

16 methods.

17 We greatly appreciate your recognizing 

18 the prior comments that we submitted on this 

19 discussion document and incorporated them into 

20 your current proposal, specifically the elements 

21 regarding the Organic Systems plan.

22 And we also are pleased to see you 
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1 acknowledge that the certifiers may need some 

2 additional training on GMO testing.

3 The issue of GMOs is continuing to rise 

4 in terms of a priority in organic. It's of course 

5 prohibited but the producers and handlers face 

6 significant challenges in the environment with 

7 adventitious contact with GMOs.

8 And it's really important as we look at 

9 this that we address these challenges in a way that 

10 distinguishes between what's in control of the 

11 organic producer and handler and what's not in 

12 control of the organic producer and handler.

13 Recent data released from USDA's 

14 National Agriculture Statistics Service in its 

15 2014 Organic Survey provides for the first time a 

16 quantitative accounting of market losses due to GMO 

17 contamination over the last several years.

18 For the first time this national survey 

19 asked questions about crop losses due to 

20 contamination of GMOs, specifically in organic 

21 production systems.

22 And the survey indicated that between 
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1 2011 and 2014 there were 87 incidences of market 

2 loss totaling $6.1 million in crop losses, or about 

3 $70,000 per farm affected.

4 By comparison the data reported for the 

5 period of 2006 to 2010 aggregated to only $7,600. 

6 So that's a jump from $7,600 to $6.1 million in 

7 reported crop losses in the USDA's official data 

8 through its ag census.

9 It clearly speaks to the escalating 

10 pressures that the producers are feeling on this 

11 issue.

12 And so the work you're doing here is 

13 critically important.

14 We support the proposal. We urge you 

15 to pass the recommendation as written, but also 

16 just want to encourage you to continue the work 

17 that's not yet completed on strategies to mitigate 

18 GMOs coming into systems through conventional seed 

19 through your work on seed purity.

20 I'd like to also briefly address two

21 petitions that we filed with NOP and NOSB. The 

22 first is a petition to revise the current allowance 
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1 for natural flavors in organic processed products 

2 to require organic forms when commercially 

3 available.

4 And the second is for the removal of 

5 lignosulfonate from the National List as an allowed 

6 floatation agent in post-harvest handling. 

7 And we're pleased that the Crop and 

8 Handling Subcommittees have both voted in favor of 

9 those petitions.

10 These petitions are part of a portfolio 

11 of work that OTA is doing to ensure that the agency 

12 is a good steward of the National List.

13 And our goal is to help innovate 

14 alternatives to the National List and move towards 

15 organic alternatives where possible, and at the 

16 same time defending the judicious use of existing 

17 tools when those alternatives are not yet 

18 available.

19 We just have recently formed a new 

20 working group called the National List Innovation 

21 Working Group amongst our membership to create a 

22 vehicle to invest dollars and resources in applied 
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1 research to identify alternatives to materials on 

2 the list and find more compatible alternatives.

3 The Organic Center's Ph.D. scientists 

4 are going to be assisting the group to identify 

5 university and other scientific partners on these 

6 projects.

7 The first project that the National 

8 List Innovation Working Group is taking on is our 

9 organic alternative to celery on the National List 

10 606 for curing organic meat.

11 The group is going to be working to 

12 identify celery or other vegetable varietals that 

13 can be grown organically, can be replicable and 

14 allow for use of the standardized product and meet 

15 the specification necessary to accomplish that 

16 functional cure in organic cured meat products.

17 As we get this work underway we do 

18 encourage the Board to re-list celery seed on 606 

19 while this work gets underway.

20 But rest assured that this Innovation 

21 Working Group will be taking on this project and 

22 many others over the coming years.
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1 So thank you and I look forward to 

2 seeing you all in Vermont.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thanks very much, 

4 Laura. And you did it without the bell going off. 

5 Okay, Colehour, it looks like you have 

6 some questions.

7 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. I apologize for 

8 pressing the button twice. Excuse me. I only 

9 have a question.

10 So, Laura, thank you for your comments. 

11 And as a side comment it was nice to see you in 

12 Hawaii. Thank you for spending the time at the 

13 NASDA meeting to see me and to make your 

14 presentation there.

15 My question is to follow up on your 

16 comment regarding the GMO topic and the testing.

17 And like you say, we should continue 

18 working on this. I wholeheartedly agree. 

19 But what kind of steps or process could 

20 you expand upon regarding what you think we as the 

21 NOSB might be doing to mitigate some of these issues 

22 that producers deal with in terms of receiving 
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1 contamination from GMO from non-organic sources 

2 primarily, although that of course is not at all 

3 the only concern with all of the airborne 

4 pollination, et cetera, that happens.

5 Like in Hawaii it's out of control 

6 because it's not any producer growing something, 

7 it's wild grown papaya, for example, that you can't 

8 blame on a particular producer. And it's not 

9 specifically from production sites. 

10 But I don't know if you have some 

11 specific ideas of how people could -- not people, 

12 how NOSB could continue down this path, or what next 

13 steps we might take. Thank you.

14 MS. BATCHA: Thanks, Colehour. And I 

15 enjoyed getting to see you as well. And I have 

16 finished up all of your wonderful coffee that I got 

17 from you at the farmer's market so I'm missing that 

18 good coffee. It was a nice trip to Hawaii.

19 On that question I think it's 

20 challenging because we want to be careful about 

21 who's responsible for what.

22 But a couple of things come to mind. I 
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1 think specifically in moving forward this 

2 contamination prevention strategy. That way we 

3 know we've covered our bases as an organic 

4 community and we can be on the record saying our 

5 producers and handlers know what to do. 

6 Our certifiers know what to do. And we 

7 have the best rigorous system in place for 

8 monitoring our practice standards.

9 Therefore, when we are seeing this 

10 inadvertent contamination coming from outside of 

11 the system the rest of agriculture has to start to 

12 take some responsibility for those occurrences.

13 Because we know we're doing everything 

14 that we can within our own system to prevent this 

15 presence.

16 So I think that that's very important. 

17 The continued work for the certifiers 

18 on the testing is key because we can't avoid a 

19 future where we have to have some sort of visibility 

20 on what's going on.

21 We might want to sort of defer to the 

22 don't ask/don't tell model, but I think we're just 
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1 simply beyond that. So we have to have good 

2 information. 

3 And the certifiers have to know when 

4 they do get test results how to begin understanding 

5 again what's within the control of the operator and 

6 what's not within the control of the operator.

7 So I think those two things work 

8 together. The seed issue is the specific one. 

9 And one of the things that as we've worked on this 

10 over the years and provided comments to NOSB that 

11 we're really interested in focusing first and 

12 foremost on non-organic seed use in organic 

13 systems.

14 And as a starting place to really 

15 require the minimized contamination of those seed 

16 supplies.

17 I think you're right in identifying the 

18 wind and the pollen, particularly for coordination 

19 in terms of cross-contamination.

20 But the source of the seed is going to 

21 continue to be the most critical point in the supply 

22 chain in terms of being successful in the 
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1 marketplace.

2 So those are my initial ideas, 

3 Colehour. And I serve on the AC21 Committee and 

4 that group has been reconstituted. It's an 

5 Advisory Board to the Secretary on 21st Century 

6 Agriculture. 

7 And we're going to be meeting again 

8 starting in December. And I think I'll continue 

9 to share information between that board and NOSB, 

10 and encourage NOSB to weigh into AC21 when the 

11 opportunities arise just to demonstrate that we're 

12 leading the way in terms of responsible action in 

13 this regard, and that we need USDA and the rest of 

14 agriculture to help prevent the contamination 

15 that's outside of the control of our operators.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Laura. 

17 Harold has a question.

18 SECRETARY AUSTIN: Thank you, Laura. 

19 This is Harold. A couple of points.

20 One, I wanted to thank you for the 

21 efforts that you guys are going to put forth dealing 

22 with the celery issue that you're talking about and 
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1 helping to move us forward in a different 

2 direction.

3 Also with a couple of petitions that OTA 

4 has put together and submitted to the various 

5 subcommittees.

6 One question on the petitions. And I 

7 think just for public knowledge, the steps that 

8 you've taken as you work on those petitions and 

9 bring them forward, gathering that information so 

10 that you can present it to those of us on the 

11 subcommittee and ultimately onto the Board, how do 

12 you gather the information that it's the right 

13 timing for something to be looked at for removal 

14 and then get behind it to support it in the form 

15 of a petition?

16 MS. BATCHA: Thanks, Harold. So I 

17 think it's a multi-year process. 

18 I think if you look at the petition on 

19 the annotation change on natural flavors on 605A 

20 that work in terms of monitoring the issue goes all 

21 the way back to 2006.

22 And as we've followed the issue and 
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1 worked with our membership and the NOSB I think as 

2 far back as 2005 we reached out to industry, labor, 

3 manufacturers as well as users in the system and 

4 our membership. And we aggregate data about use 

5 and incidence and availability.

6 And in that particular instance we felt 

7 like given the Board reviewing the material in 

8 sunset and the new requirements for limiting 

9 annotation changes through that process we felt 

10 like now was the time to take that step and move 

11 toward the commercial availability with a 

12 preference for organic in certified organic 

13 products in the 95 category.

14 Simply because there was enough 

15 incidence that we could demonstrate a product 

16 available, but not quite yet enough volume.

17 So it's sort of the next logical step 

18 in moving the system that way.

19 But typically it's the number of years. 

20 The same with the lignosulfonate. We first 

21 started working on that material back in some of 

22 our early advising on the trade discussions with 
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1 the European Union and Japan and Korea on organic 

2 equivalents, and recognized it as a material that 

3 was causing some challenges in terms of those 

4 discussions.

5 So we started to dig in and try to learn 

6 more about how often it was being used.

7 And we surveyed, and visited 

8 manufacturers, and spoke with the pear 

9 association, and spoke with pear growers to really 

10 make sure we understood what the data was out there 

11 in terms of use and alternatives.

12 So it's really a multi-year combination 

13 of all that engagement and aggregation of the data, 

14 Harold.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, great answer. 

16 Harold, do you have a follow-up?

17 SECRETARY AUSTIN: Yes, thanks Jean. 

18 I couldn't get off the mute button.

19 Laura, thanks. That was a great 

20 explanation and I just wanted to thank you on behalf 

21 of the various subcommittees that I sit on for the 

22 effort to reach out to the stakeholders that are 
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1 directly involved, that are directly impacted, and 

2 taking the time to really do some solid research 

3 and information-gathering. That's all I really 

4 wanted to pass back. Thank you so much for all the 

5 energy and effort put forth.

6 MS. BATCHA: Well, thanks, Harold. 

7 And I'll share that with Gwendolyn Wyard and Nate 

8 Lewis because they do all that, all the heavy 

9 lifting. Thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Laura. 

11 And the next presenter is Patty Lovera and on deck 

12 will be Ronald Gonzalez.

13 MS. LOVERA: Hi, this is Patty. Can 

14 everybody hear me?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

16 MS. LOVERA: Okay. Hi, my name's 

17 Patty Lovera. I'm with Food and Water Watch. So 

18 we're a national non-profit advocacy organization. 

19 So I'm going to try to quickly cover a 

20 couple of topics that we also covered in our written

21 comment.

22 So the first one is on the GMO 
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1 contamination piece. In 2014 Food and Water Watch 

2 worked with OFARM which is a network of organic 

3 grain cooperatives to survey organic grain growers 

4 about not only what they were experiencing in terms 

5 of contamination but to try to get a handle on some 

6 of the costs.

7 So I submitted that into the record 

8 before. If anybody hasn't seen it I'm happy to 

9 give it to Board members again.

10 And we're happy that now some of the 

11 economic data we collected as part of that survey 

12 has been updated when asked those questions. We 

13 think that that's great. 

14 That's an appropriate role for USDA to 

15 be collecting that kind of economic data on the 

16 impact on organic growers.

17 But a couple of other things I just will 

18 pull out from the survey results that we got from 

19 surveying organic grain growers predominantly in 

20 the Midwest was just their thoughts about how it's 

21 working in terms of the policy or lack of policy 

22 to date in terms of this coexistence.
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1 So one out of two of the respondents who 

2 were surveyed was skeptical that the current 

3 coexistence programs are working.

4 And two out of three of them were 

5 skeptical or basically said that good stewardship 

6 practices on the part of users and non-users of the 

7 technology is going to be enough to prevent 

8 contamination problems.

9 And then they went on and many of them 

10 were also skeptical of whether crop insurance was 

11 an adequate response to that.

12 The reason I bring those up is this is 

13 the conversation that USDA is having in many forms 

14 through AC21, through redoing the other 340 process 

15 for approving new GMOs and even 

16 administration-wide as they talk about the 

17 coordinated framework for how GMOs are regulated 

18 between agencies.

19 And I think it's really critically 

20 important that organic is in that conversation. 

21 So, we just really urge the NOSB to keep talking 

22 about this and keep elevating it to really just make 
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1 sure that there's an understanding in that 

2 conversation that the organic community is being 

3 impacted by this technology.

4 They are bearing very real costs and an 

5 unfair amount of the burden of trying to coexist.

6 So we would just encourage the process 

7 to continue and encourage the Board to be quite 

8 vocal inside the USDA and out about what it means 

9 for organic to deal with this technology.

10 So, to move onto another topic of the 

11 process for reviewing inerts.

12 To keep it short I will just say that 

13 Food and Water Watch is not supporting the proposed 

14 annotation to change how NOSB would review all 

15 synthetic inert ingredients.

16 And instead we think that the NOSB and 

17 NOP should implement the previous NOSB 

18 recommendation to review the inerts individually.

19 We're concerned about the 

20 appropriateness of shifting that responsibility to 

21 EPA. And we think that this is the NOSB's job. 

22 So we think that we need to have a 
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1 process of notifying manufacturers and putting 

2 requests for information out there about these 

3 inert ingredients, developing a time-line for 

4 review, and while working with EPA review all of 

5 these ingredients and voting on them individually.

6 And then finally I'll just shift to one 

7 specific material that I mentioned in our written 

8 comments and that is ash from manure burning.

9 And ash from manure burning, I would say 

10 that Food and Water Watch supports the 

11 recommendation to reject the motion to remove ash 

12 from manure burning from 205.602.

13 There are very good reasons listed in 

14 the materials NOSB put out for this meeting and I 

15 would just add one which is the role that we see 

16 manure incineration technologies are playing in 

17 essentially propping up excessive concentration of 

18 livestock production in certain parts of the 

19 country.

20 Food and Water Watch spends a lot of 

21 time talking about industrialized livestock in

22 particular. We spend a lot of time on that in 
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1 Maryland where the big focus is the Chesapeake Bay 

2 and the tremendous concentration of chickens in 

3 particular on the Eastern Shore. There are too 

4 many chickens in that region.

5 And rather than deal with that core fact 

6 and the fact that they are producing too much waste 

7 to ever be used at an agronomic rate on that land, 

8 that piece of land, or even in the larger region. 

9 Instead we need technology like incineration 

10 proposed as a way to try to prop that system up and 

11 not deal with that root problem.

12 So there's very good reasoning in the 

13 NOSB document about how that particular material 

14 fits with the philosophy of organic inputs.

15 But we would just add this kind of 

16 economic motivation as well. So I'll stop there.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Patty. 

18 Questions from Colehour.

19 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, thank you, Patty 

20 for your comments.

21 I at first thought I was going to ask 

22 a question sort of along the lines of Laura in terms 
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1 of how NOSB can be more functionally active with 

2 the whole GMO contamination question.

3 However, you went onto the inert topic. 

4 And I think that I am curious instead to ask you 

5 about one of your comments about it which is if it's 

6 the NOSB's job which I actually personally to some 

7 degree concur with, and not the EPA's, I guess my 

8 question is and the problem, and I just wondered 

9 if you have some thoughts off the top of your head 

10 is how frankly and realistically and honestly an 

11 overburdened NOSB already could be taking that on?

12 In what format or how could we as NOSB 

13 members actually accomplish that level of review 

14 and consideration and communication that would be 

15 necessary for all of those inert listings?

16 Because I think that that's one of the 

17 rationale of defaulting to the EPA. And so I'd 

18 like to hear your comments on the how part of that 

19 question. Thank you.

20 MS. LOVERA: Sure. Yes, we're aware 

21 of that. I don't make this recommendation 

22 lightly.
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1 There was a previous plan, or plan of 

2 attack kind of laid out. And I think it's just a 

3 matter of starting.

4 I think there could be a rational way 

5 to group them together when it comes to getting 

6 information from EPA to review them, and grouping 

7 them together for some similarities. But I think 

8 each one does deserve its own note when it comes 

9 time to make the assessment of if it stays or if 

10 it goes.

11 And I think that there it may take a 

12 different time-line and a different process, and 

13 maybe some of the other processes like sunset take 

14 with the five-year plan.

15 But it just has to start. I think it's 

16 been many, many, many years of talking about how 

17 to start it, and some progress could be made if it 

18 had been started.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Patty. 

20 I see no additional questions and so we'll go onto 

21 the next presenter, Ronald Gonzalez. And 

22 following Ronald will be Eileen Hourihan.
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1 MR. GONZALEZ: Hello.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Hi, we can hear you. 

3 Thank you.

4 MR. GONZALEZ: Okay, good afternoon. 

5 My name is Ronald Gonzalez. I am the research 

6 manager of Dole Tropical Products, Pineapple 

7 Division.

8 I have over 10 years of experience 

9 conducting applied research to topics in 

10 production.

11 As you may know Dole is currently the 

12 major producer and exporter worldwide of organic

13 pineapples and it has many years of experience 

14 producing and exporting organic pineapples to the 

15 USA and European markets.

16 I'd like to comment on the use of 

17 ethylene to induce flower in organic pineapples 

18 which is necessary for different reasons, some of 

19 which I would like to describe.

20 Pineapple farms are divided in planting 

21 blocks. Each planting block has thousands of 

22 plants. Without the use of ethylene it would not 
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1 be possible to synchronize flowering in any 

2 specific pineapple field.

3 As a result fruit harvest could not be 

4 planned and it would not be possible to program the 

5 fruit harvest in any field or in any week of the 

6 year.

7 It would be necessary to cover the whole 

8 farm and screen field looking for fruit that has 

9 reached the required physiological condition to be 

10 harvested.

11 It would require a tremendous amount of 

12 labor and would be substantially complicated.

13 As a result the cost of harvesting would 

14 increase significantly and the percent that you put 

15 rejected, not meeting market specifications would 

16 increase substantially.

17 It would be extremely difficult to 

18 comply with contracts regarding the volume of fruit 

19 that the farmer has to provide to the market on time 

20 which may also have economic consequences for the 

21 grower.

22 Not being able to comply with contracts 
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1 where the market may require transition to 

2 conventional production and that would imply an 

3 increased use of synthetic chemicals.

4 Pest control to flower induction would 

5 be extremely difficult and highly inefficient 

6 because there would be flower plants throughout the 

7 farm in different stages of development.

8 Different pineapple fruit pests attack 

9 the fruit at certain fruit phenological stages. 

10 Hence, having flower plants scattered in the fields 

11 throughout the farm would result with the 

12 attraction of different pests and greater pest 

13 pressure at all times.

14 Consequently the incidence of food 

15 pests would increase substantially, resulting in 

16 a much greater percentage of food rejection.

17 Under the recent growing conditions the 

18 pineapple plants are naturally induced to 

19 flowering between November and February in 

20 response to environmental stress factors.

21 There are pests during this time of 

22 year.
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1 Without ethylene, a substantial number 

2 of plants in the farm would get induced during this 

3 time of the year, and as a result a bigger fruit 

4 would be observed between April and July, and a 

5 deficit of fruit would occur during the rest of the 

6 year.

7 The size of pineapple fruit is related 

8 to the size of the pineapple plant at the moment 

9 of differentiation.

10 Hence, if the large number of plants are 

11 naturally induced at a low plant weight, then the 

12 size of the fruit will decrease substantially and 

13 also would reduce yield per hectare.

14 The sum of increased harvest costs, 

15 increased fruit rejection and reduced fruit yield 

16 would make the operation non-profitable to the 

17 farmer.

18 Consequently --- currently, sorry, 

19 there are no non-synthetic alternatives to the use 

20 of ethylene to induce flowering in pineapples.

21 The efficacy of ethylene as a flowering 

22 induction agent in the pineapple is greater than 
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1 95 percent. 

2 Ethylene is produced in natural plants. 

3 There is no scientific evidence indicating a 

4 negative impact of ethylene use on human health or 

5 on the environment.

6 Ethylene has been used safely for many 

7 years by pineapple growers in Latin America.

8 As organic pineapple growers strongly 

9 support the use of ethylene for production in 

10 organic pineapples.

11 And that would be my comments. Thank 

12 you very much.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Ronald. 

14 That was very clear. Are there questions from the 

15 Board? There is a question from Harold Austin.

16 SECRETARY AUSTIN: Ronald, thank you 

17 -- this is Harold -- for taking the time to 

18 participate in this opportunity for oral 

19 testimony.

20 In the spring we hadn't heard a great 

21 deal from the producers that are using ethylene in 

22 organic production.
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1 With your comments we've had 42 written 

2 comments now on this round of our sunset review.

3 And it seems to be rather obvious that 

4 there seems to be a trend towards how important this 

5 material is.

6 Without the ethylene for use for your 

7 flower induction, what would that do to the organic 

8 crop production in Costa Rica of the pineapple?

9 MR. GONZALEZ: Well, thank you very 

10 much for the opportunity.

11 Yes, without the possibility to use 

12 ethylene to induce flower in organic pineapple 

13 production in Costa Rica we may have to transition 

14 to conventional agriculture.

15 Because it would be extremely, 

16 extremely difficult and very, very expensive to 

17 grow organic pineapples.

18 We plant more than 65,000 plants per 

19 hectare. I don't know, something like 30,000 

20 plants per acre.

21 And we would have to go looking for 

22 differentiated plants that may be scattered all 
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1 over the farm.

2 And once we identify the plant, we would 

3 have to treat it individually to protect it against 

4 fruit pests.

5 And then we would have to make sure that 

6 we go back to that specific plant in that specific 

7 field at the right time in order to harvest it at 

8 the right maturity -- physiological condition --

9 that is with the right mix, with the right fruit 

10 internal condition so that it can be exported.

11 And that would be a tremendous, 

12 tremendous amount of labor and logistically it 

13 would be just, I don't know, maybe impossible. It 

14 would be very, very difficult.

15 For us, it is crucial to be able to 

16 program the harvest because then once we know when 

17 we are going to harvest the fruit, then we generate, 

18 we design how our pest control practices and all 

19 the other practices that we have to implement --

20 for instance, to protect the fruit against the Sun 

21 radiation so that it doesn't get burned.

22 All the practices have to be 
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1 systematically programmed so that we get the right 

2 quality of produce at the end.

3 And that without ethylene would be just 

4 extremely difficult.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And a question from 

6 Colehour Bondera.

7 MEMBER BONDERA: Hello. Thank you, 

8 Ronald, for your presentation. I have a question 

9 of you regarding your role as an employee of Dole.

10 And as you are probably, aware Dole used 

11 to have its pineapple production before it moved 

12 it to Costa Rica and Hawaii. 

13 And for the sake of labor expenses 

14 decided to go somewhere where it would be less 

15 expensive.

16 That aside, my question regarding Dole 

17 is the fact -- and just as a side note I also produce 

18 pineapples on my farm, but not for export.

19 My question to you though is if you feel 

20 that Dole as a company is or should be working and 

21 supporting research into seeking non-synthetic 

22 alternatives to ethylene gas to induce ripening, 
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1 and/or is already trialing those at the field 

2 level, et cetera, et cetera.

3 So if you could comment on the other 

4 option besides -- like you said -- the labor and 

5 the no use, but the other things that could be used 

6 or have been tried for inducing flowering in 

7 pineapples that Dole has been pursuing or 

8 supporting. Thank you.

9 MR. GONZALEZ: Okay, thank you for your 

10 question.

11 Yes, we don't know of any alternative 

12 for flowering induction currently. A 

13 non-synthetic alternative for flowering 

14 induction, we don't know any alternative.

15 We do not use ethylene as a ripening 

16 agent. We go to the field and we harvest the fruit 

17 when it has reached naturally the right 

18 physiological condition, the maturity to be 

19 harvested.

20 We do not utilize any ripening agent, 

21 or we do not utilize ethylene as a ripening agent.

22 We only use ethylene to induce 
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1 flowering.

2 And in the past, Dole has conducted 

3 research to try to find alternatives to ethylene 

4 as a flowering inductor, but we haven't found any 

5 that could be utilized in organic production.

6 And so basically we depend entirely on 

7 ethylene for that purpose. Not as a ripening 

8 agent, because we harvest the fruit when it gets 

9 ripened naturally --- not with an agent, for that 

10 matter.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

12 for that clear response. Appreciate it, Ronald.

13 I'd like to move onto the next speaker 

14 just to help us move along. We're running about 

15 20 minutes behind where we thought we might be. 

16 But we do have plenty of time.

17 So just be patient for those of you that 

18 are waiting in line.

19 The next speaker is Eileen Hourihan, 

20 and she'll be followed by West Mathison. Eileen? 

21 Hello, Eileen, are you there? Eileen Hourihan, 

22 McCarthy Manufacturing? No? I'm not hearing 
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1 Eileen so I'm going to move on to -- hello?

2 DR. TUCKER: I don't have anyone from 

3 area code 708 on the line, and she did not -- her 

4 phone didn't respond to the call when we called her.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, so we'll move 

6 onto West Mathison. You would be up. And then 

7 following that there will be Rhodes Yepsen. West, 

8 are you there?

9 MR. MATHISON: Yes, can everyone hear 

10 me okay?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, we can hear you 

12 loud and clear. Thank you.

13 MR. MATHISON: Okay. Well thank you 

14 for hearing me. My name's West. I'm the 

15 president of Stemilt Growers. 

16 Stemilt is a family-owned business and 

17 I'm a fifth generation farmer here. Stemilt is 

18 owned by -- it was started by my grandfather and 

19 is owned by the family.

20 Stemilt is a vertically integrated 

21 company, and we are active farmers. So we own a 

22 lot of our own farmers and we have independent 
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1 growers some of whom are guys like Gray Fuller who 

2 was Organic Grower of the Year and Mike Brownfield 

3 who holds organic certification -- either number 

4 1 or number 2, I can't remember.

5 We have packing lines and a marketing 

6 company. We sell about 20 million packages of 

7 total apples, pears, cherries, peaches, nectarines 

8 and apricots, and about 20 percent of our products 

9 are organic.

10 The question I'd like to start out with 

11 is really more about strategy and the strategy of 

12 the group.

13 Because in any strategy there are 

14 tradeoffs. And those tradeoffs need to be 

15 properly stated in order to reinforce the strategy.

16 So for example, I hear some different 

17 strategies that I sort of -- the line of thinking 

18 that I went down.

19 How do we grow consumption of organics 

20 and expand the reach to more consumers, elevate the 

21 standards and protect consumers, improve 

22 traceability and maintain integrity of the system 
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1 at its critical points.

2 So we're growers and we need to sell our 

3 stuff. My grandfather would say you can't have 

4 demand or grow demand unless you have supply first. 

5 Once they eat it then they'll come back.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calvin, you need to 

7 mute your phone.

8 MR. MATHISON: My grandfather started 

9 organic farming in 1989, and we hired a Ph.D. to 

10 do more research to understand how do we create more 

11 gentle practices and reduce toxicity in the system.

12 It's common sense now, but at the time 

13 it wasn't so common that things like good roads and 

14 reducing the dust in the orchard reduced fore-load 

15 and increase storage life without fungicide.

16 We changed the dunk tank water on a 

17 regular basis and balanced both the use of chlorine 

18 and monitoring the salts.

19 And there's a huge push on industry 

20 research around integrated pest management, where 

21 we leverage the natural systems -- for example, 

22 predator cycles, mating disruption, creating 
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1 indexes around fire lights, and other bio controls.

2 Of course, "bio control," the word 

3 didn't exist back then.

4 So during my career I've lost many 

5 organic orchards and crops due to the lack of proper 

6 controls, primarily fire blight on apples, psylla 

7 on pears, aphids on cherries, and reduced packout 

8 due to smaller size, lack of fertility, crop load 

9 management and higher defects, with russeting and 

10 coddling moss in spotted wing drosophila.

11 So I'm going to specifically talk about 

12 in two areas of the business. Right now it's 

13 pre-harvest, or the orchard side of the business. 

14 Then I'll talk about the post-harvest, or the 

15 packing side of the business.

16 We need to maintain good tools for soil 

17 health, which would be compost, natural 

18 fertilizers and inert acids.

19 And then pheromones to maintain -- that 

20 we need to maintain for mating disruption and to 

21 do more research in this area.

22 And continuing to improve the fire 
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1 blight controls that we have because it becomes a 

2 major limiting factor in what we can grow 

3 organically.

4 How do we find a better way to manage 

5 psylla on pears?

6 Also, we need to maintain the use of 

7 fish oils and fish products for improving fish oils 

8 used to improve the absorption of the material on 

9 the tree bark and the fertility for the tree.

10 Lime sulfur and sulfur products are 

11 very important as well as coppers.

12 So I'd just make a general statement 

13 around cautioning the removal of further products 

14 because many times these new products might work. 

15 However, their efficacy is not fully understood.

16 And the consequence is, as these items 

17 change, many times the logistics around the orchard 

18 have to increase because sometimes they aren't as 

19 efficient or effective. And you have to increase 

20 the precise management on the farm.

21 And so one example with the loss of 

22 microshield, it required us to buy more tractors 
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1 and more sprayers in order to cover and spray our 

2 orchards better with the replacements of 

3 microshield.

4 Also, this has been a difficult fact 

5 when we think about the amount of wind that we have 

6 to factor, when to spray, when not to spray. 

7 Sometimes it rains and we are not able 

8 to get into the orchard to spray. And so even 

9 though there is efficacy with the new product, it 

10 has greatly increased the capital investment for 

11 the growers and increased the management on the 

12 farm.

13 This past year, we lost the use of 

14 ReTain on apples, and this helps to reduce 

15 pre-harvest drop.

16 This past year we had a compressed 

17 harvest from the heat we experienced in the 

18 Northwest. And on varieties like honeycrisp 

19 requires -- with the use of ReTain we've 

20 historically picked the orchard in two picks, 

21 sometimes three picks where we have to pick the ripe 

22 fruit and go back for the fruit that ripens later.
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1 Because we lost ReTain, we had more 

2 apples drop to the ground from pre-harvest drop 

3 because we did not have that. And the only way that 

4 we can battle against that is to have more pickers. 

5 And for us in eastern Washington, we have to build 

6 more housing.

7 And so --

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: West, could you 

9 wrap up? Because you're over the time.

10 MR. MATHISON: Am I over the time?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

12 MR. MATHISON: So, two other quick 

13 points. 

14 We need to maintain our hygiene for 

15 sanitation, chlorine, ozone and those types of 

16 products.

17 We need to explore using MCP-1 to expand 

18 the marketing window for apples and pears, and to 

19 maintain U.S.-grown organic products for longer 

20 periods of time.

21 And we need to research the use of 

22 methyl bromide alternatives because we have 
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1 organic equivalencies in other markets. However, 

2 our fruit has to be fumigated currently to go into 

3 some of these export markets.

4 And so with that, those cover the 

5 topics.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

7 much, West. I should note that the bell was so 

8 quiet I could barely hear it, Jenny. So, you might 

9 have to make it --

10 DR. TUCKER: We'll turn up the volume 

11 on the bell. But if it sounds like the speaker 

12 isn't hearing it, we will politely jump in.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, great. 

14 Thank you. 

15 Harold, question?

16 SECRETARY AUSTIN: Thanks, Jean. 

17 West, thanks for your presentation. I know your 

18 family has been a long part of organics in the 

19 Northwest, and we're grateful for the high mark 

20 that you set for the rest of us to try to follow.

21 You mentioned the need to protect the 

22 materials -- white pine sulfur, copper, sulfur 
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1 pheromones, that type of stuff.

2 Aren't those materials that even prior 

3 to the founding of the NOP, materials that your 

4 grandfather and your father were using in their 

5 organic crop production? 

6 And aren't they still just as important 

7 today, or are they as important today as they were 

8 back then?

9 MR. MATHISON: Well, they've become 

10 more important with the loss of other products.

11 And also we've become better at using 

12 them and when to use them. I think that's the other 

13 piece of the research that we're -- we're trying 

14 to use them less and not as broad, but really 

15 finding the timing so they have better efficacy.

16 So it's become more important.

17 SECRETARY AUSTIN: Jean, one more 

18 quick one.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay.

20 SECRETARY AUSTIN: West, also, 

21 organics versus conventional. With the Food 

22 Safety Modernization Act coming in, how 
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1 significant are the sanitizer --, the various 

2 sanitizers you were beginning to mention earlier 

3 -- how significant of a role are those going to play 

4 in organic crop production and also at the 

5 warehouse for handling?

6 MR. MATHISON: Yes, so for the Food 

7 Safety Modernization Act and the new technologies 

8 for studying the microbial loads and the presence 

9 of items like listeria on packing equipment, the 

10 technology has increased.

11 And so the actual detection of things 

12 like listeria has gone way up because now we can 

13 see it better.

14 So we have to have these types of 

15 sanitary tools in order to properly clean our 

16 packing line equipment.

17 Because with the amount of monitoring 

18 and record-keeping and enforcement, when you take 

19 a product that's grown outside and then you store 

20 it for a period of time, then run it across the 

21 packing line, it has a bio load on it that has to 

22 be reduced.
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1 And the only way that we can get the 

2 lines clean are with these items like chlorines, 

3 and ozones, and hydrogen peroxide, and using 

4 phosphoric acid for bussers is extremely 

5 important.

6 There are no substitutes for those 

7 items.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

9 very much, West. That was very clear.

10 Our next speaker is Rhodes Yepsen. And 

11 he'll be followed by Amber Pool. Rhodes, are you 

12 there?

13 MR. YEPSEN: Yes, I am. Can you hear 

14 me?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, thank you.

16 MR. YEPSEN: Hi, this is Rhodes Yepsen, 

17 and I'd like to comment on the sunset of plastic 

18 mulch and covers.

19 I'm the recently appointed executive 

20 director of the Biodegradable Products Institute, 

21 or the BPI.

22 The BPI is a not-for-profit association 
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1 with the mission to promote the production, use and 

2 appropriate end of lives for materials and products 

3 that are designed to fully biodegrade in typically 

4 biologically active environments such as 

5 composting.

6 There are known alternatives to 

7 conventional plastic mulch, including 

8 biodegradable mulch films, which as of September 

9 30, 2014, is on the National List.

10 Such mulches are available today; 

11 however, confusion has resulted due to the NOP 

12 policy memo 15-1.

13 The Crops Subcommittee has been asked 

14 by the NOP to review the policy memo regarding 

15 biodegradable biobased mulch film and to clarify 

16 the recommendation approved by the NOSB regarding 

17 the use of such mulch films in organic production.

18 Biodegradable mulch films that were 

19 petitioned are biobased products. In other words, 

20 they do have some plant-based content, and the 

21 biobased content can be determined using the test 

22 ASTM D6866 method to provide transparent 
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1 information about the product.

2 The mulch films that are currently 

3 available on the market have a minimum of 10 percent 

4 biobased content, which is an improvement over the 

5 current use of 100 percent fossil-based plastic.

6 But more importantly, these mulch films 

7 must meet the soil toxicity and biodegradability 

8 requirements as required by the USDA organic 

9 regulations.

10 In other words, they break down safely 

11 into carbon dioxide in water and soil.

12 The origin of the material has no impact 

13 on biodegradability. In other words, 

14 microorganisms in the soil will treat a 

15 biodegradable mulch film the same whether it is 100 

16 percent biobased or 10 percent biobased.

17 Polyethylene mulch that is currently 

18 allowed in organic production has numerous 

19 problems, namely that it breaks into small pieces 

20 that are left in the field, and the bulk of it must 

21 be removed and sent to landfill at significant 

22 expense to farmers and the environment.
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1 Biodegradable mulch films eliminate 

2 the labor of removal and sending discarded plastic 

3 mulches to landfill, as well as environmental harm 

4 from broken pieces of plastic remaining in fields 

5 and surrounding areas.

6 Farmer comments to the NOSB in 2012 

7 strongly supported use of biodegradable material, 

8 and the NOSB agreed that a crop production material 

9 -- as a crop production material biodegradable 

10 mulch film aligned with organic principles and 

11 National List criteria.

12 However, the material that ultimately 

13 was approved did not reflect the material that had 

14 been petitioned or evaluated in the technical 

15 review.

16 The petition was for biodegradable 

17 mulch film made from bio-plastics, not 

18 biodegradable biobased mulch films.

19 BPI had supported the annotation 

20 included ASTM D6866, which is the standard for 

21 determining the content of biobased material as a 

22 condition for compliance.
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1 However, this standard does not contain 

2 a definition of biobased material, nor does it 

3 require a minimum amount.

4 The NOP memo published in January 2015 

5 was issued to clarify NOSB recommendations --

6 (Telephonic interference.)

7 MR. MATHISON: -- in other words 

8 entirely from plant material. 

9 These petitions disregarded the fact 

10 that there is no biodegradable mulch film 

11 commercially available now or in the foreseeable 

12 future that can meet those requirements.

13 It also disregarded the definitions 

14 that are included in the USDA organic regulations.

15 Interpretation that it must be biobased 

16 equates to 100 percent carbon-based material 

17 derived from renewable resources via biological 

18 processes exceeds the National List criteria, as 

19 well as the content of the petition and its 

20 technical report, the support of public comments 

21 for the use of biodegradable mulch film and also 

22 the principle of continuous improvement in 
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1 production practices and materials.

2 We submitted a recommended change to 

3 the Crops Subcommittee in the written comments, and 

4 I welcome your questions and concerns. Thank you.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Rhodes. 

6 Have you also submitted the comments that you just 

7 read? Have you also submitted those?

8 MR. MATHISON: Yes, a version of those.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, good. 

10 Great. Because the detail is -- the devil is in 

11 the detail as we know. So that was good.

12 MR. MATHISON: Yes.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

14 much. I don't see any specific questions for you, 

15 but I do note that I ought to have announced the 

16 names of all of the Board members who are sitting 

17 in on this call listening. I mean, not everybody's 

18 asking questions, but they're all listening.

19 So, Jenny, could you read that out for 

20 me, please?

21 DR. TUCKER: Sure. So, here's the 

22 tally of folks who are on the line. These are all 
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1 the Board members.

2 We have Ashley Swaffar, Carmela Beck, 

3 Colehour Bondera, Francis Thicke, Harold Austin 

4 --- we just heard from Jean Richardson -- Jennifer 

5 Taylor, Lisa de Lima, Tom Chapman, Tracy Favre and 

6 Zea Sonnabend.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And Calvin Walker.

8 DR. TUCKER: I'm sorry; Calvin Walker 

9 is also online.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

11 very much.

12 DR. TUCKER: Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And thank you, 

14 Rhodes. Our next speaker is Amber Pool, and she'll 

15 be followed by Marni Karlin. 

16 MS. POOL: Hi, good morning. This is 

17 Amber. I'm a senior farm certification specialist 

18 at CCOF; I've been certifying organic farms for 

19 nine years now for CCOF.

20 And I just wanted to thank you guys for 

21 doing this webinar. I'm really enjoying this 

22 format and I can really hear everybody's comments 
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1 clearly. 

2 This is really great because I wouldn't 

3 have been able to do oral comments without this 

4 format. So thank you.

5 I wanted to say that CCOF supports the 

6 annotation change that references the EPA list for 

7 inerts that no longer exist.

8 We have a lot of members who use 

9 registered pesticides that contain inert 

10 ingredients. 

11 And most of our growers and livestock 

12 producers who are using these materials, they have 

13 no idea that they're using materials with inert 

14 ingredients.

15 They're relying on organizations like 

16 CCOF and OMRI to review these materials. So they 

17 don't know and so that's why you haven't probably 

18 heard from a lot of the organic farmers who are 

19 using pesticides.

20 Since I started nine years ago, I've 

21 just seen so many new organically-approved 

22 pesticides come on the market.
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1 And so we support an annotation change 

2 that would ensure that only the safest materials 

3 are approved for use in pesticides for organic 

4 crops and livestock.

5 We also have a concern that any changes 

6 cause minimal disruption to our organic producers.

7 It takes a long time for these pesticide 

8 companies to get products tested and approved by 

9 the EPA, so we would like to see a long phase-out 

10 period so the people don't lose these tools that 

11 they rely on.

12 I was able to come to the April meeting, 

13 and I saw the presentation on the Safer Choice 

14 Program. And I really enjoyed that and I found it 

15 really interesting.

16 I do have some concerns about basing our 

17 reviews off of another program's reviews, 

18 especially since this was more of consumer products 

19 instead of agricultural products.

20 So I think it could work but it would 

21 take some careful vetting and thorough review.

22 And if you guys have any other questions 
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1 about our organic growers or their use of pesticide 

2 with inerts, I'm happy to answer any questions. 

3 Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Amber. 

5 I am not seeing any questions, and so thank you for 

6 your presentation.

7 MS. POOL: Thank you.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And we'll move onto 

9 the next speaker which is Marni Karlin, and she'll 

10 be followed by Allen Widman. 

11 And I note that Eileen Hourihan has been 

12 able to join the conference now. Eileen, I'll put 

13 you on towards the end; I hope that's okay. Thank 

14 you.

15 And so let's go to Marni.

16 MS. KARLIN: Hi, thanks for the 

17 opportunity to comment. Can you all hear me?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

19 MS. KARLIN: Great; thanks. My name 

20 is Marni Karlin. I'm with the Organic Trade 

21 Association. And like I said, I appreciate the 

22 opportunity to comment in advance of the meeting.
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1 Unfortunately, I won't be able to join 

2 you all in Vermont, and so I'm very pleased to be 

3 able to join you all here in this webinar.

4 I'd like to begin by saying that OTA 

5 supports the work that the NOSB has done and 

6 continues to do on classification.

7 And we very much appreciate the 

8 competence and professionalism NOSB brings to the 

9 task.

10 Based on the information provided in 

11 the technical review for each material, and NOSB's 

12 draft guidance on classification of materials, OTA 

13 agrees with NOSB's assessment that alginic acid 

14 should be classified as synthetic, and kanaba wax 

15 should be classified as agricultural.

16 We'd like to raise just a side note of 

17 caution. We are uncertain about the urgency to 

18 move to reclassify both of these substances at this 

19 time.

20 We would like to point out the risk of 

21 making such a determination based on draft rather 

22 than final guidance.
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1 And we're concerned that such action 

2 may result in getting out too far ahead of NOP.

3 To be clear, this concern does not 

4 relate to any of the work the Board does in response 

5 to petitions or the sunset materials, but solely 

6 when the Board initiates determinations based on 

7 draft guidance.

8 OTA recognizes that NOSB is actively 

9 and regularly making classification decisions, and 

10 in doing so must use the best information available 

11 in a timely manner.

12 In other words, NOSB cannot and should 

13 not put its work on hold until NOP finalizes the 

14 guidance and classification of materials.

15 NOSB must respond to petitions, sunset 

16 requirements and requests from NOP in a timely 

17 manner, and the use of draft guidance is 

18 appropriate in these areas.

19 OTA also acknowledges the good work the 

20 subcommittee has completed in drafting these 

21 proposals, and we're not suggesting that these 

22 proposals be tabled.
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1 We largely agree with NOP's draft 

2 classification of materials, and in the case of 

3 alginic acid and kanaba wax, we believe the 

4 classification decision is fairly 

5 straightforward.

6 However, going forward, we believe it 

7 would be prudent to hold off on NOSB-initiated 

8 reclassification activities until final guidance 

9 is issued.

10 This would eliminate the potential need 

11 to engage in rulemaking to correct a decision that 

12 was made according to draft guidance, but then 

13 differs from the ultimate determination made under 

14 final guidance.

15 And I'd like to make clear that in 

16 situations like this the Board can and should make 

17 sure NOP knows the organic sector needs a 

18 particular guidance to be finalized.

19 The Board can put appropriate pressure 

20 on USDA to complete its work so that the Board can 

21 continue to do its work and allow the organic sector 

22 to continue to thrive and grow.
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1 I'd also like to make one additional 

2 slightly unrelated comment.

3 I'd like to acknowledge the release of 

4 the updated NOSB Policy and Procedures Manual.

5 OTA very much appreciates the work the 

6 Board has done on this. It's very important to 

7 have established procedures that are transparent, 

8 both for the Board and all stakeholders in the 

9 organic sector. Thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

11 very much, Amber. It was very clear and very 

12 helpful. I don't see any questions on my screen, 

13 so thank you. 

14 Sorry you can't come to Vermont. But 

15 you know it will be raining and snowing by then, 

16 so just stay where it's nice and warm. Marni, 

17 thank you.

18 The next speaker is Allen Widman, and 

19 he'll be followed by Hilda Tovar. Allen, are you 

20 there?

21 MR. WIDMAN: I'm here. Can you hear 

22 me?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

2 MR. WIDMAN: Thank you. My name's 

3 Allen Widman; I'm an organic grain farmer in 

4 Washington State. 

5 I'm presenting today because I need 

6 your considered opinion for guidance on the 

7 Washington Department of Agriculture's organic 

8 program with respect to a liquid fish fertilizer 

9 I would like to use on my farm.

10 I feel the product is aligned with the 

11 spirit of organic production in that it's nutrients 

12 cycled from the ocean, not the Haber-Bosch process, 

13 and is approvable under the allowed synthetic 

14 exemptions of liquid fish products.

15 Its guaranteed analysis is 400. The 

16 nitrogen is in the molecular form of ammonium 

17 sulfate.

18 It only differs from already approved 

19 liquid fish product in the manufacturing process, 

20 but not input sources, reaction, or molecule.

21 This product is captured condensate 

22 from heated fish emulsion, where the ammonia in the 
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1 emulsion is evaporated and condensed via a 

2 temperature gradient in the use of sulfuric acid, 

3 which also serves to pH-adjust the product and 

4 stabilize it from microbial growth.

5 The questions to be answered in short 

6 form: are there limits to reactive molecules in 

7 liquid fish products as a result of acid addition? 

8 In this case, is ammonium sulfate allowed? 

9 Further, are liquid fish products limited to fish 

10 emulsions and hydrolysates, or can they also be 

11 derived from them?

12 The following emails help to clarify 

13 the input needed. The first was between myself and 

14 Sam Schaeffer; he was the input coordinator for the 

15 WSDA organic program.

16 And he says, "Hi Allen, I don't want to 

17 reveal any confidential information regarding 

18 Ocean Protein's process, and I'm not sure how much 

19 they have shared with you. But suffice it to say 

20 the conversion of ammonia into ammonium sulfate is 

21 not allowed as it is a chemical change not mediated 

22 by an enzyme or within a living organism."
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1 And I responded, "I have to take issue 

2 with your decision. The most recent review of 

3 liquid fish products for use in organic production 

4 states, 'Liquid fish products include fish 

5 emulsions and fish hydrolysates --- also called 

6 fish hydrolysates. There is no language that 

7 liquid fish products are exclusive to fish 

8 emulsions or fish hydrolysates. The 400 

9 fertilizer is composed entirely of liquid products 

10 from fish, with the exception of sulfuric acid. 

11 "Sulfuric acid is clearly alliterated 

12 in the NOP allowed synthetic list. Also, the most 

13 recent review approved legal uses of substance. 

14 Liquid fish products are currently on the National 

15 List as synthetic substances allowed for use in 

16 organic crop production.

17 "In response to your assertions that 

18 when captured ammonia is transformed into ammonium 

19 sulfate it becomes synthetic, no longer allowed in 

20 organic production, and conversion of ammonia into 

21 ammonium sulfate is not allowed as it is a chemical 

22 change not mediated by enzymes or within living 
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1 organisms.

2 "Note the specific conversion already 

3 happens in liquid fish products that are approved 

4 organic.

5 "Both physical process and temperature 

6 and pressure, as well as acid pH adjustment, induce 

7 a myriad of chemical reactions in liquid fish 

8 products that are not mediated by enzymes or within 

9 living organisms.

10 "This is pointed out in the most recent 

11 review itself. Note, the evaluation questions to 

12 be used for organic crop production," and then I 

13 listed the three questions and their answers.

14 It didn't change his opinion of his 

15 denial, so I went to Brenda Book, who's the director 

16 of the WSDA organic program, and she responded, 

17 "I've looked into your issue for you. We have also 

18 consulted with the USDA National Organic Program 

19 regarding the decision that was provided to you.

20 "Based on the information we have been 

21 provided and input from the USDA, our program's 

22 response was accurate.
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1 "Although the WSDA program has approved 

2 the use of different fish fertilizers, we have not 

3 previously approved the use of ammonium sulfate 

4 fertilizers.

5 "As a USDA-accredited certifying agent 

6 we must strictly follow the USDA regulations 

7 regarding which substance is allowed in organic 

8 production. 

9 "Ammonium sulfate is not on the list of 

10 allowed substances in organic crop production and 

11 is not referenced in the technical review of liquid 

12 fish products used by the NOSB when they made their 

13 recommendations to allow liquid fish products in 

14 organic production."

15 And it goes on, but my response was, 

16 "Thank you for your response. I get the idea that 

17 this product will not be approved through the WSDA.

18 "It should be noted though that all 

19 liquid fish products that are approved organic by 

20 the WSDA and are pH-adjusted with sulfuric acid are 

21 ammonium sulfate fertilizers.

22 "The NOP list for approved synthetics 
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1 does not enumerate any reactive molecules from pH 

2 adjustments in liquid fish products.

3 "When reactive with phosphoric acid, 

4 ammonia in fish becomes ammonium phosphate. When 

5 reactive with sulfuric acid magnesium in fish 

6 becomes magnesium sulfate, et cetera.

7 "It is in my opinion arbitrary and 

8 poorly reasoned to pick one molecule that is 

9 already approved in many other organic products and 

10 the result of the same chemistry and source and then 

11 deny it in this case."

12 And so that's my basic question to you, 

13 is: are there limits to the reactive molecules, and 

14 should this substance be considered a liquid fish 

15 product and exempted under the already exemption 

16 for liquid fish products?

17 I guess I need some input, not 

18 necessarily a rule or anything, but some guidance 

19 for the WSDA because it is a new substance in the 

20 manufacturing process. So, thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

22 much, Allen. Right on time. And do you also have 
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1 these comments in written form that you've 

2 submitted as well? Because that would certainly 

3 be the most reasonable way in which the NOSB could 

4 provide you with any kind of feedback.

5 MR. WIDMAN: Yes, I sent those in.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, great. So we 

7 will certainly look at those comments and think 

8 about what the best way is to handle them. 

9 Obviously I can't suggest any kind of response here 

10 on this call.

11 Thank you for the comments. I don't 

12 see any specific questions, so I would like to move 

13 to the next speaker, Hilda Tovar. And Hilda will 

14 be followed by Amelie Hayte.

15 Hilda, are you there? Hilda Tovar from 

16 Berrymex had some comments for the Crops 

17 Subcommittee I see from the notes.

18 DR. TUCKER: She is online with a 

19 headset. Hilda, is your computer on mute? 

20 It shows Hilda's online with a headset. 

21 So Hilda, can you hear us, and can you try getting 

22 off mute if you're on mute on your computer? If 
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1 your computer volume is off.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Hilda, can you hear 

3 us? No luck.

4 DR. TUCKER: She's calling 

5 internationally, so that may be the --

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ah, okay. 

7 DR. TUCKER: Maybe we should try again 

8 later. 

9 She just chatted in that she can hear 

10 us. Hilda, we cannot hear you so please check the 

11 mike on your computer to see whether the input part 

12 of your microphone is working. Because I'm 

13 assuming you're using voiceover computer. 

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: She says it's 

15 working. I can see her written words, but I can't 

16 hear her. And she is on her computer.

17 DR. TUCKER: For some reason, Hilda, 

18 your input mic is not working. So I'm not sure how 

19 to help you troubleshoot that, unfortunately.

20 If I can suggest perhaps that we go onto 

21 the next commenter and then we come back to Hilda 

22 after the next commenter, give her a little bit of 
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1 a chance to troubleshoot.

2 Hilda, you may want to contact 

3 ReadyTalk during the next couple of minutes here. 

4 Their technical support is actually quite good if 

5 you're able to reach them.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Hilda, we'll hope 

7 that you can get in later. And so I'll turn now 

8 to Amelie Hayte. Amelie, are you there?

9 MS. HAYTE: Yes, I'm here, thank you. 

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, great. Off 

11 you go. I can hear you.

12 MS. HAYTE: Okay. So this is Amelie 

13 Hayte with GNT USA. 

14 First I'd like to thank the Board for 

15 taking the time to review the colors that are 

16 currently listed on the National List.

17 So, GNT is a manufacturer of colors from 

18 fruits and vegetables. And back in 2007 we 

19 petitioned for most of the colors that were listed 

20 on the 205.606.

21 And today we're commenting in support 

22 of relisting various colors on the National List. 
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1 I'm going to list them - beet juice extract, black 

2 currant juice color, black and purple carrot juice 

3 color, blueberry juice color, carrot juice color, 

4 cherry, chokeberry, elderberry, grape, pumpkin, 

5 purple potato, red cabbage, and red radish extract 

6 for color.

7 So first, since we petitioned these 

8 colors in 2007 GNT has been able to develop organic 

9 colors. And we currently offer organic colors 

10 made from black currant, black/purple carrots, 

11 regular carrots, elderberries, pumpkins, and red 

12 radish. 

13 So those type of raw materials help to 

14 give colors that are red, purple, orange and 

15 yellow.

16 So even though some of the colors are 

17 now available as organic there are still some 

18 challenges that are associated with organic 

19 production.

20 The first challenge is that organic 

21 colors are still available in limited quantity. 

22 And just as a reminder GNT does not 
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1 source fruit and vegetables from the open market. 

2 So we use special varieties that are grown and 

3 harvested specifically for color.

4 So, most of our raw materials are 

5 actually grown within 150 miles from our factory. 

6 And so there are a limited amount of organic fields 

7 and organic farmers.

8 Additionally, the organic fruit and 

9 vegetables do not have the same quality as 

10 conventional fruit and vegetables. And the 

11 quality of our raw material is directly affecting 

12 the quality of our colors.

13 So for example, organic colors are not 

14 as concentrated as the conventional colors and the 

15 organic colors do not work in all applications.

16 Finally, the organic colors that we 

17 offer are only available in liquid form. And so 

18 we feel that removing colors from the National List 

19 would prevent the industry from using conventional 

20 colors that are available as all-soluble, for 

21 example, or in powder form.

22 That would affect some segments of the 
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1 industry like powder drink mix, snacks, seasonings 

2 and tablets just to give a few examples.

3 So for these reasons we would like to 

4 relist the colors. We recommend to relist the 

5 colors on the National List. 

6 And then as a side note we were also 

7 wondering if the Board decides to relist the colors 

8 or any of the colors if it would be possible that 

9 the Board recommends that the CAS number 

10 assignments are removed from the National List 

11 because those don't really apply to colors made 

12 from fruits and vegetables.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Very good. Good 

14 comments. Very useful. Have you also submitted 

15 these in writing, Amelie?

16 MS. HAYTE: Yes, we did.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, good. 

18 That's always helpful when we're trying to look 

19 through all the materials as we are voting and 

20 reviewing the materials.

21 I don't see any specific questions 

22 coming up on my computer at the moment. So I thank 
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1 you very much for your comments. They were very 

2 helpful and I also look forward to reading your 

3 written comments as well. Thank you.

4 The next speaker we have is Pamela 

5 Saunders. And Pamela will be followed by Brian 

6 Lehmann. Pamela, are you there?

7 MS. SAUNDERS: Hello.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Hi, Pamela. Yes, 

9 we can hear you, Pamela. Now we can't hear you. 

10 Pamela Saunders from CROPP we cannot presently hear 

11 you except your initial hello.

12 MS. SAUNDERS: Can you hear me?

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, now I can hear 

14 you. Yes.

15 MS. SAUNDERS: Okay, thank you.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay.

17 MS. SAUNDERS: I appreciate this 

18 opportunity to address the full Board as I won't 

19 be able to be in Vermont.

20 This is Pam Saunders. I am 

21 representing the organic meat company Organic 

22 Prairie which is a wholly owned subsidiary of CROPP 
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1 cooperative Organic Valley.

2 And our written comments address a 

3 whole range of issues in detail.

4 I'm going to take this time though to 

5 kind of give a broad overview of how we got to where 

6 we are in regards to celery powder.

7 And it's up for sunset review, as you 

8 know. We appreciate the Handling Subcommittee's 

9 recommendation to relist celery powder.

10 The petition originally in 2007 

11 anticipated that we have an issue of scale and 

12 quantity. After all, there was organic celery and 

13 there would be more, right?

14 But we really didn't anticipate that 

15 there would be technical issues with the growing 

16 of an organic crop for the use in processing meat.

17 At that time, the alternative curing of 

18 meat was in its infancy. And use of the naturally 

19 occurring nitrates in vegetable powder which are 

20 converted by the use of a lactic acid starter 

21 culture to nitrites which are an alternative to 

22 sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate. Those things 
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1 are not allowed in organic processing.

2 By the way, they are allowed in European 

3 standards, but not in U.S. standards.

4 So, since that infancy in alternative 

5 curing our process has become much more 

6 standardized with predictable and acceptable 

7 results for the consumer.

8 I would say that everyone has been doing 

9 their due diligence in those years since 2007.

10 We reached out to every kind of dryer 

11 and juicer of organic celery and other vegetables.

12 And we, of course, continued to query 

13 our suppliers of conventional celery on an annual 

14 basis as required, showing a growing but really 

15 still a small industry demand.

16 And in the meantime those suppliers 

17 were doing their due diligence in trialing organic 

18 crops.

19 You'll be particularly interested to 

20 review Kerry Ingredients' comments which kind of 

21 details the results that they got from trialing 

22 organic crops.
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1 I believe there were upwards 20 

2 different crops trialed in these intervening years 

3 by Kerry Ingredients and Florida foods who are the 

4 two main suppliers of meat processors in the U.S.

5 The challenges fall down to this. It's 

6 really about nitrate content in the organic crop.

7 And without a high enough nitrate 

8 content you can get unwanted color and flavor, and 

9 you might not accomplish the cure without a high 

10 enough nitrate content.

11 So, really, we've used the last seven 

12 years to take advantage of this developing 

13 alternative cure, to grow a market which has grown 

14 to somewhere between $150 to $200 million to build 

15 a cured organic meat, processed meat business. 

16 We're growing at double digit rates. 

17 And meeting consumer expectations in 

18 regards to not just color and taste, but also in 

19 regards to food safety and shelf life.

20 So, how would we use another five years 

21 if we've already had these seven or eight years?

22 And I think that we're in a special 
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1 moment. Laura Batcha in her comments a little 

2 while ago referred to the industry group for -- a 

3 working group on innovation and that they were 

4 taking on the celery powder challenge as their 

5 first project.

6 We've been working with our competitors 

7 and with our suppliers. And those will be the

8 people who are working in this working group. 

9 I've reached out to a number of 

10 agronomists and plant scientists and researchers 

11 who are actually pretty enthusiastic about this 

12 project.

13 And it's clear that not all avenues have 

14 been exhausted.

15 I'll just give you one example. I 

16 spoke with an ARS researcher, Eric Brennan, in 

17 California. 

18 And he's working on a project that 

19 addresses the problems that we potentially could 

20 turn into an opportunity. 

21 And that problem, he is growing cover

22 crops to scavenge and absorb the excess nitrogen 
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1 from organic vegetable crops. 

2 Is that the bell?

3 DR. TUCKER: Yes, sorry.

4 MS. SAUNDERS: Okay. Let me just 

5 finish this example for you.

6 And so he's going to be juicing and 

7 assessing the nitrate content of those cover crops. 

8 And we're going to be able to look at that and see 

9 if that's got potential of turning that excess 

10 nitrogen problem into an opportunity if that 

11 substance can be used for curing meat.

12 And that's not the only thing. That's 

13 not proven, but it just shows that there are --

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I do have a question 

15 for you coming up, Pam, that might help you to 

16 expand your comments without taking more of the 

17 five-minute allotment.

18 MS. SAUNDERS: Let's do that.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tom Chapman has a 

20 question for you. Tom.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Can you guys hear me?

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, reasonably.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay. Pam, thanks 

2 for your comments.

3 Can you help me understand what's the 

4 necessary nitrate content in celery powder to 

5 achieve the cure and how it compares to organic 

6 celery powder?

7 MS. SAUNDERS: I can't be real specific. 

8 The product that we use now is standardized to, I 

9 believe it's 15 to 20 parts per million. 

10 And I think that the crops that have 

11 been tested have been well below 50 percent of that. 

12 But they tested organic crops I believe 

13 without really trying to enhance through soil 

14 amendment, possibly other kinds of perhaps foliar 

15 applications.

16 They didn't select in particular for 

17 varieties that might have a higher nitrate uptake.

18 So that's why we think this area, the 

19 potential has not been exhausted in this area's 

20 possibility for getting an organic product that 

21 would have a functional quantity of nitrate.

22 And of course without causing excess 
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1 nutrient runoff in the form of nitrate and 

2 phosphorus, like from the over-application of 

3 manure.

4 So it's a complex matrix of issues that 

5 can be explored including varietals, including 

6 cropping methods, and including potential 

7 scavengers of nitrogen.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Francis Thicke has 

9 another question for you.

10 MEMBER THICKE: Are there alternatives 

11 to nitrate for curing meat?

12 MS. SAUNDERS: Well, we use vegetables 

13 because vegetables are naturally high in nitrate. 

14 In fact, from a dietary standpoint 

15 vegetables are the highest source of nitrate in our 

16 diet.

17 There is sodium nitrate, potassium 

18 nitrate, neither of which is allowed in organic. 

19 So, vegetables are the logical choice for 

20 exploration, unless we go down the path of allowing 

21 sodium nitrite.

22 MEMBER THICKE: I guess I wasn't 
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1 totally clear. I was asking if there are 

2 alternatives to nitrate, something besides nitrate 

3 for curing meats.

4 MS. SAUNDERS: There's salt curing 

5 which there are some minimal nitrates that occur 

6 in sea salt. 

7 And there are other kinds of dry curing 

8 methods. But there aren't alternatives for the 

9 products that we're used to eating like hot dogs, 

10 pepperoni, all that kind of product.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

12 for your comments, Pam. 

13 Have you also submitted these in 

14 writing?

15 MS. SAUNDERS: Our written comments 

16 are more detailed than what I've just given you and 

17 really address the size of the industry. They 

18 address human health impacts. And they address 

19 particulars about what the working group is going 

20 to try and accomplish.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Very good. Thank 

22 you for your comments.
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1 The next speaker is Brian Lehmann and 

2 he'll be followed by Katherine DiMatteo. And then 

3 we'll work on fitting Eileen back in and we're going 

4 to try still to get Hilda Tovar as well.

5 DR. TUCKER: Can we do a very quick 

6 test? Hilda, if you are on the line can you just 

7 say hello just so we can see if we have solved your 

8 problem?

9 MS. TOVAR: Yes, I am.

10 DR. TUCKER: You are. Okay. So 

11 Hilda, we'll pick you up after -- we'll actually 

12 call on you when we're ready, okay?

13 MS. TOVAR: Okay.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, we'll let 

15 Brian Lehmann talk and then let's just fit Hilda 

16 in right after that before Katherine as long as 

17 that's okay with Katherine. 

18 So, over to you, Brian.

19 MR. LEHMANN: Okay. Can you hear me?

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, I can hear you.

21 MR. LEHMANN: Good afternoon. I'm 

22 Brian Lehmann commenting as an organic consumer.
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1 I know that the ad hoc subcommittee has 

2 looked at proposals in recent years that in some 

3 way have involved testing for purity of seed in 

4 organic.

5 I also feel that USDA and NOP have 

6 pushed back against NOSB since this effort towards 

7 seed purity was undertaken with various unilateral 

8 actions such as revisions and sunset rules, 

9 agenda-setting and chairmanship of NOSB meetings.

10 And the current proposal is for a best 

11 management practice for verification of 

12 non-organic seed.

13 But as a consumer I feel cheated. I 

14 have no assurance that certified organic products, 

15 particularly corn and papaya, are free from 

16 unwanted GMO contamination unless that product is 

17 also verified with Non-GMO Project or other 

18 independent means.

19 But even then there's still a level of 

20 no more than 0.9 percent GMO. Even if we had 

21 mandatory testing some level of degradation to the 

22 organic seal would likely already have taken place 
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1 under purview of USDA.

2 But in reality many providers of 

3 certified organic products don't bother with 

4 non-GMO verification.

5 So a consumer is really left in the 

6 dark.

7 A given company's customer rep is 

8 probably not going to be able to tell me what batch 

9 of corn a particular product came from much less 

10 what level of contamination was found or not found 

11 unless, as I said, the product carries non-GMO 

12 verification as well as organic certification.

13 But USDA just simply is not making it 

14 easy to know what's going on. In 2014 Food and 

15 Water Watch and OFARM released a report indicating 

16 over 50 percent of respondent corn and soy farmers 

17 had experienced rejection of loads for unwanted GMO 

18 contamination at significant cost.

19 A more recent USDA census on 

20 agriculture found the value of organic crop loss 

21 from unwanted GMO contamination exceeded $66,000 

22 per farm.
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1 But while these efforts expose a 

2 serious problem they don't necessarily alleviate 

3 concerns for the consumer marketplace.

4 Biotesting is the main source of 

5 discovery of unwanted GMO contamination. But it 

6 doesn't tell me if loads intended for the domestic 

7 market are tested to the same exacting standards 

8 and product destined under contract to an overseas 

9 market, or even whether a load rejected by one buyer 

10 can still find its way into the organic food supply.

11 With reports of contamination as high 

12 as 17.5 percent in the Food and Water Watch report, 

13 for example, and maybe it just winds up as feed, 

14 still I believe the problem is so critical as to 

15 require inspection of USDA certified organic corn 

16 under 7 CFR Part 205.670(a) more than under (b) or 

17 (c), or in other words, for cause.

18 At the same time USDA has not seen fit 

19 to establish a level of unwanted GMO contamination 

20 which would be considered unacceptable in USDA 

21 certified organic.

22 Obviously this must be done. While the 
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1 commonly accepted standard of 0.9 percent does 

2 represent a certain level of encroachment already 

3 it should not be exceeded under any circumstances.

4 If coexistence is as feasible as USDA 

5 claims this modest level of protection should not 

6 be a burden.

7 But if we're to maintain a process 

8 standard, if unwanted GMO contamination is then 

9 found to exceed established levels it must become 

10 the responsibility of the offending patent-holder.

11 But if USDA will not protect the organic 

12 seal under its purview it risks exposing it as 

13 fraudulent.

14 Thank you for the opportunity to 

15 comment and I just wanted to say if I seem to preach 

16 the choir, excuse me; if I seem to preach the choir. 

17 But I just wanted to register a certain 

18 level of dissatisfaction. So thank you.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, thank you very 

20 much. Yes, you may well be preaching to the choir. 

21 Your comments on this very complex and serious 

22 subject are appreciated.
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1 I don't notice any specific questions 

2 for you but I know we will continue working on this 

3 topic, Brian. Thank you.

4 I would now like to see if we can patch 

5 in Hilda Tovar of Berrymex on her international 

6 call. Hilda, are you there?

7 MS. TOVAR: Yes, I am. Can you hear

8 me?

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, I can hear you. 

10 Yes.

11 MS. TOVAR: Okay. Thank you for your 

12 time and I apologize for the inconvenience.

13 I'm Hilda Tovar. I work in the 

14 continuous improvement of food safety area for 

15 Berrymex of Mexico. I'm representing the central 

16 Mexico and Baja facility and I really appreciate 

17 this opportunity to talk to you.

18 The comment that I submitted was 

19 regarding several items that you are proposing to 

20 remove from the 205.601.

21 (Telephonic interference.)

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Some folks mute 
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1 yourselves out there. We can hear lots of 

2 conversations. Thank you. Please continue, 

3 Hilda.

4 MS. TOVAR: I am asking you to consider 

5 the permanence of products in the pest control 

6 area, disease control area, nutrition, 

7 disinfection, weed control.

8 I can give you a lot of examples of the 

9 explanations why keeping those.

10 But as a general I want to put you in 

11 context, I know you don't know where we are growing 

12 our berries.

13 We are growing our berries in central 

14 Mexico. That includes Jalisco, Michoacan states 

15 that are in the center of Mexico and also up north 

16 in Baja, California.

17 We have different weather conditions in 

18 both sites of production. And we need to have wide 

19 always available material.

20 Due to the weather conditions and also 

21 the location the farms that we have in Baja, 

22 California are 178 miles from Tijuana.
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1 So when we are running off one of the 

2 products or substances that we are using, or 

3 materials that we are using in the regular 

4 production process or farming process it is quite 

5 complicated to get another.

6 And also we have to be careful with the 

7 environment.

8 For example, one of the options that we 

9 are discussing keeping or removing is the plastic 

10 mulch cover.

11 Right now we are using it as weed 

12 control. You know that the weed control is 

13 mechanical, mainly mechanical. This involves a 

14 lot of people and right now we have a scarcity of 

15 people. It is a difficult environmental, labor 

16 environmental in Baja.

17 In central Mexico we start experiencing 

18 lack of people to do these activities. So the 

19 plastic mulch cover are big help for us.

20 And we have integrated into our company 

21 a recycling program. We are making sure that all 

22 the plastic -- not only the plastic mulch that we 
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1 are using in our production are properly 

2 transformed into something else and are not just 

3 left in the environment, polluting the water or the 

4 soil.

5 For soil amendments we are asking you 

6 to consider keeping elemental sulfur and 

7 micronutrients, and liquid fish products just as 

8 a help.

9 We have mainly in Michoacan very stony 

10 ground. And they are poor and difficult to get all 

11 the nutrients that the crops are needed. And you 

12 are expert on the matter so I don't have to go deeply 

13 to explain why we are needing all these products

14 available.

15 And regarding disease and pests, we 

16 would like to keep the hydroperoxide, the lime 

17 sulfur, the oil, the copper sulfate, the copper 6 

18 and potassium bicarbonate to have like a rotation.

19 We know that it doesn't create 

20 resistance, but it is also availability from more 

21 suppliers, especially in the north, up north. 

22 Sometimes we don't have everything we want from our 
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1 suppliers, or they take too much time to get in too.

2 And we are trying to have an integrated 

3 pest and disease management based on the 

4 monitoring, trying to apply or to handle the pest 

5 and diseases as they are presenting these as 

6 prevented as possible. That's why we would like 

7 to keep the pheromones.

8 It is a key part to monitor the pest 

9 population that we have in our crops.

10 Also, if the pheromones are without 

11 effectiveness we dispose them correctly. We have 

12 to comply by condition and by law that we cannot 

13 pollute our environment. Thank you very much.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

15 much, Hilda. Right on time. Good job.

16 And just a question from me. Have you 

17 submitted these comments also in writing?

18 MS. TOVAR: Yes. We didn't submit the 

19 distribution. As I told you, I can provide it if 

20 you need it.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, because you 

22 did have a long list of materials which we will be 
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1 considering and so it's very helpful for us to know 

2 how many producers and farmers are using these 

3 materials as we make our decision.

4 MS. TOVAR: Okay.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

6 MS. TOVAR: Thank you.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I don't see an 

8 additional question at the moment from the Board 

9 members, so I'd like to turn next to Katherine 

10 DiMatteo. And then she'll be followed by Eileen 

11 Hourihan. Katherine?

12 MS. ARSENAULT: Jean, if I could just 

13 interrupt for one second. This is Michelle. 

14 Hilda, if you would like to email that 

15 to me that would be great.

16 MS. TOVAR: I will do it. Thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So, the person that 

18 just spoke Hilda, that's Michelle Arsenault. And 

19 I'm assuming that you have her phone number as well 

20 as email. So she's asking you to send the comments 

21 that you just made so that we have that list of 

22 materials that you're interested in. Okay, thank 
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1 you.

2 Now, over to Katherine DiMatteo.

3 MS. DIMATTEO: Thank you. Can you 

4 hear me?

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, we can hear you.

6 MS. DIMATTEO: Great. I am Katherine 

7 DiMatteo. I am a partner in the consulting firm 

8 Wolf, DiMatteo and Associates. We've been 

9 providing advice and service to the organic sector 

10 for over 25 years.

11 Thank you for the opportunity to 

12 comment, for setting up these webinars that allow 

13 more participation in the NOSB process and for your 

14 dedicated work as volunteers to maintain the 

15 integrity of the organic sector and encourage its 

16 growth and continued improvement.

17 We have submitted written comments and 

18 my comments now reflect what we have submitted to 

19 you already.

20 We have four points that I will be 

21 talking about supports the proposed work of EPA to 

22 replace the list for inerts with EPA's Safer Choice 
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1 program. 

2 The plastic mulch and biodegradable 

3 mulch films on the National List, natural sodium 

4 nitrate and its lack of prohibition to date, and 

5 the rationale for sunset renewals and removals.

6 List for inerts. We urge the NOP, EPA, 

7 and NOSB to proceed quickly with this proposed list 

8 and ensure compliance with the requirement of the 

9 Organic Food Protection Act and the rules that 

10 apply to human safety and effectiveness of organic 

11 pest control materials.

12 We especially encourage you to avoid 

13 unnecessary duplication of relisting inert 

14 ingredients.

15 Regarding the mulches, we do not oppose 

16 the continued listing of plastic mulch. 

17 We urgently request though that the 

18 currently available biodegradable mulch films 

19 which meet the National List criteria and 

20 definitions in the NOP regulations be allowed for 

21 use immediately.

22 To accomplish this the NOP policy memo 
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1 15-1 will need to be corrected to match the actual 

2 language of the regulations.

3 Our understanding of the NOSB 

4 discussions on the vote to add biodegradable mulch 

5 to the National List with a biobased constant would 

6 be required and the content would be tested and 

7 reported.

8 No minimum content would be required at 

9 this time.

10 The policy memo in January of this year 

11 restricted the biodegradable biobased mulches to 

12 only those that are 100 percent biobased of which 

13 there are none available currently nor are there 

14 any expected to be available in the near future.

15 To your original petition for 

16 biodegradable mulch film the supporting 

17 documentation and the industry technical review 

18 indicated that some petroleum products are part of 

19 the production process.

20 As a matter of fact, many materials on 

21 the National List of allowed synthetics are derived 

22 from petroleum products and the biodegradable 
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1 mulch films should not be treated differently.

2 Petroleum-based plastic mulch will 

3 petition for the first time and compare to the 

4 alternative biodegradable bio-plastic mulch films 

5 that are available it would be obvious that the 

6 biodegradable bio-plastic mulches are 

7 significantly better choices for organic 

8 production when the manufacturer, content and 

9 impact on the environment are compared.

10 Natural sodium nitrate. According to 

11 the recommendation of the NOSB the annotation for 

12 the use of sodium nitrate was to sunset in October 

13 of 2012, but there has not been rulemaking to this 

14 effect.

15 Since the Secretary has not taken 

16 action in five years then shouldn't sodium nitrate 

17 and its annotation have been considered during the 

18 2017 sunset review?

19 We urge the NOSB to request that a 

20 proposed and final rule that reflects the petition 

21 of 2011 be published prior to October 2017.

22 This silent allowance of sodium nitrate 
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1 has --

2 (Telephonic interference.)

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, I don't know 

4 what's going on but I have an ad coming on.

5 DR. TUCKER: Hi, this is Jenny. If you 

6 can still hear me I'm going to try and un-mute the 

7 person who was speaking.

8 I apologize. Somebody put us on hold 

9 and when that happens everyone gets to listen to 

10 the hold music.

11 So Katherine, I've now un-muted you. 

12 Please go ahead and try and speak.

13 MS. DIMATTEO: Okay. Can you hear me?

14 DR. TUCKER: Yes. Apologies for that. 

15 Now we can hear you but no one else. So I'm going 

16 to have to take people off one by one as it's time 

17 for you to speak.

18 So please don't go on hold, anybody. 

19 That's a lesson for the day. Katherine, please go 

20 ahead.

21 MS. DIMATTEO: Okay. So, I was 

22 speaking about sodium nitrate. 
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1 I was about to say the silent allowance 

2 of sodium nitrate has caused an unfair situation 

3 and competitive disadvantage for the input 

4 companies and the growers who are honoring their 

5 April 2011 recommendation vote of the NOSB to 

6 prohibit.

7 Lastly, the National List is part of a 

8 toolbox for organic production and handling. 

9 Amending the list or making it shorter or smaller 

10 is not automatically a goal or likely to be helpful 

11 to the organic community in the long run.

12 The decision about whether something 

13 should be on this very small list of synthetics for 

14 non-organic materials that may be used in organic 

15 production and handling is not a popularity contest 

16 of how many comments are received.

17 Relying on the number of comments 

18 received is a poor indicator of actual value or 

19 future value of a material.

20 The decision should be based upon 

21 review of the criteria intended to evaluate 

22 materials.
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1 Please ask yourself if the material 

2 could be of use in the future. It is very difficult 

3 to put it back on the list. Adding material to the 

4 National List is a very long and arduous process, 

5 and removing something is not to be taken lightly.

6 Please do not limit the toolbox 

7 unnecessarily. We need to do everything we can to 

8 encourage more organic acreage in the United States 

9 and to allow those just starting in organic to have 

10 the tools that they need to be successful. Thank 

11 you very much.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

13 much, Katherine. Appreciate your comments. And 

14 I know that they have been sent in. Written 

15 comments have already been sent in.

16 Are there specific questions for 

17 Katherine on any of these topics? It's always nice 

18 to have someone out there in the community 

19 reminding us that we need to constantly be pushing 

20 as an NOSB to have some of those materials that are 

21 just sitting there be further addressed by the NOP. 

22 So that was helpful.
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1 Okay, I don't see any questions coming 

2 in on my computer so thank you, Katherine.

3 Our next speaker is Eileen Hourihan who 

4 couldn't get on earlier. Eileen, are you out 

5 there?

6 MS. HOURIHAN MCCARTHY: Yes, hi. Can 

7 you hear me?

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, I can hear you 

9 loud and clear.

10 MS. HOURIHAN MCCARTHY: Okay, great, 

11 hi. This is Eileen Hourihan McCarthy. I'm a 

12 registered dietitian in Illinois.

13 And I just have a few comments. And I 

14 just wanted to speak against the use of sulfites 

15 in food -- actually, in other products too. And 

16 the reason why I'm saying that is because some 

17 people are allergic to them. And as you all know 

18 they respond negatively to them. They can get 

19 anaphylaxis which they can die from. They can get 

20 hives. There's all kinds of reactions that you can 

21 get from sulfites.

22 And so I would think as human beings and 
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1 as a country that we would say gosh, if there's any 

2 product chemical out there that harms another 

3 person or puts them at risk then certainly we would 

4 ban that from the food supply and from the product 

5 supply.

6 I would just think that we would do 

7 something like that.

8 I know this is coming from a human point 

9 of view but that's what medicine is, that's what 

10 being human is all about. That's who we are.

11 So anyway, I would just -- if we could 

12 get rid of those sulfites it would be wonderful.

13 And if we can't, I think that we should 

14 move the system to more of a regionally grown, our 

15 food regionally grown, and then just eat whatever 

16 is in season near you.

17 And I know you say my gosh, we're going 

18 backwards and how archaic. But in truth it isn't 

19 because as a medical practitioner the fewer 

20 chemicals and oftentimes ingredients that I have 

21 in my food, the healthier I'm going to be. We 

22 really need to go back to something that's as 
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1 natural and pure as we can.

2 And I know, I don't mean any harm. I'm 

3 sure a lot of you don't like me saying that, but 

4 it really is true.

5 And the other side of it is that if any 

6 of us responded medically to sulfites or any other 

7 chemical or product or our families and our 

8 children or anyone we would get that off of that 

9 GLAS list as quickly as we could.

10 And I think that's kind of the bottom 

11 line here. I mean, we've heard a lot of 

12 information from everyone, but my gosh, you know, 

13 farmers have families too.

14 And I do understand capitalism, it's 

15 money, we make a living. I understand how 

16 difficult it is for the farmer. I really, really 

17 do and I really feel for you.

18 But I think that the really smart farmer 

19 says I'm going to the other extreme and I'm going 

20 to make a heck of a lot of money doing this.

21 Set up a system and get rid of all those 

22 chemicals that our body just doesn't need or want. 
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1 Our little cells don't know what to do with them.

2 But anyway, thank you for your time and 

3 forgive me for saying that, but I'm sure a lot of 

4 us agree.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh no, it's fine. 

6 Your comments are most welcome, Eileen.

7 And I note that the two materials 

8 perhaps that you were most concerned about were 

9 lignin sulfonate and sulfuric acid.

10 Are there any other specific chemicals 

11 from your point of view as a dietitian that we are 

12 going to be looking at for sunset that specifically 

13 come to mind apart from just sulfites in general?

14 MS. HOURIHAN MCCARTHY: Not at this 

15 time and not for this discussion, but I'm going to 

16 look further into it and then I can respond back 

17 to you appropriately.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Very good. Well, I 

19 don't see any other specific questions for you so 

20 I thank you very much for your comments. Much 

21 appreciated.

22 MS. HOURIHAN MCCARTHY: Okay, thanks 
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1 so much.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Now, Jenny, 

3 according to my list here that completes the 17 

4 people that were signed up for this webinar. Am 

5 I missing anybody?

6 DR. TUCKER: We did look for Jessica 

7 Green to see if we could find that area code to see 

8 if she's online. Jessica Green, are you out there?

9 We don't believe that Jessica Green 

10 ended up calling in. But we did check her by both 

11 name and number.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. Well, 

13 thank you.

14 So this brings us to the end of our first 

15 webinar. And as NOSB chair I'd just like to say 

16 wahoo, that was pretty darn fabulous.

17 We still have it says here on my screen 

18 72 audio, 55 web. So we've managed to have a really 

19 terrific conversation and hear some very 

20 interesting comments under less stressful 

21 circumstances than sometimes we have at the 

22 in-person meetings where we are more pushed for 
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1 time and we have three minutes per person and not 

2 always as much time for a conversation afterwards.

3 So I'm really very pleased with this. 

4 And I'm looking forward to the next webinar on 

5 October 20.

6 And I hope that as many of you as 

7 possible can tune in because these public comments, 

8 as I said at the beginning, are an absolutely 

9 critical part of our work on the NOSB to be sure 

10 that we've heard from the maximum number of 

11 stakeholders that we can do.

12 And it's especially helpful to us to 

13 hear people that we know can't come to the meeting, 

14 and perhaps farmers who can't take long enough to 

15 get off the tractor to certainly make the travel 

16 to a more distant place.

17 So, thank you everyone. I'll turn it 

18 back over to you, Jenny, in case there's any closing 

19 comments from the NOP or to Paul. I'm not sure. 

20 You guys, NOP.

21 DR. LEWIS: Let me speak on behalf of my 

22 colleagues here at NOP, thanking Board members and 
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1 the public for joining us today at our first 

2 webinar.

3 I agree wholeheartedly with Jean in 

4 terms of the success we've had here. I'm looking 

5 forward to having future webinars. Obviously, 

6 we're having one next week.

7 I want to also thank the NOP staff that 

8 really in terms of the background behind the scenes 

9 work, Michelle and others, that it's really 

10 helpful. 

11 So again Michelle, Jenny and others, 

12 thank you for all your work. And I'm looking forward 

13 to joining everyone in about a week. Thank you. 

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. I'll 

15 talk to many of you next Tuesday. Same time, same

16 station. Goodbye.

17 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

18 went off the record at 3:07 p.m.)

19 

20 

21 

22 
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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1

 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 + + + + +

 NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

 + + + + +

 COMMENT TELECONFERENCE

 + + + + +

 TUESDAY

 OCTOBER 20, 2015

 + + + + +

 The Board met telephonically at 1:00

p.m., Jean Richardson, PhD, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT

JEAN RICHARDSON, PhD, Consultant and organic 

 maple syrup producer, NOSB Chair

TRACY FAVRE, Consultant, NOSB Vice Chair

HAROLD AUSTIN, Zirkle Fruit Company, NOSB 

 Secretary

CARMELA BECK, Driscoll Strawberry Associates, 

 Inc.

COLEHOUR J. BONDERA, Kanalani Ohana Farm 

TOM CHAPMAN, Clif Bar & Company

LISA de LIMA, MOM's Organic Market

ZEA SONNABEND, California Certified Organic 

 Farmers (CCOF)

ASHLEY SWAFFAR, VitalFarms

FRANCIS THICKE, PhD, Radiance Dairy

C. REUBEN WALKER, PhD, Southern University and 

 A&M College
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

2

STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT

LISA BRINES

EMILY BROWN ROSEN

PAUL LEWIS, NOSB Standards Division Director

MILES MCEVOY

DEVON PATTILLO

BETSY RAKOLA, USDA, Organic Policy Advisor

EDDIE STOKER

JENNY TUCKER, Technology Facilitator, 

 National Organic Program

JESSICA WALDEN

SONYA WILSON 

COMMENTERS PRESENT

AISHWARYA BALASUBRAMANIAN, AgroFresh, Inc. 

BOB BLUE, Fetzer Vineyards

BARRY FLAMM, Citizen

DIANE KULL, Applegate LLC

GOLDIE CAUGHLAN, Citizen

JACKIE DeMINTER, MOSA

JEFF NOLAND, EnergyWorks

JANE PARKER, Gourmet Garden

JESSICA SHADE, The Organic Center

KEVIN ENGELBERT, Citizen

KENT HENDERSON, Citizen 

MARGARET SCOLES, IOIA

PAUL BROWNER, DSM

ROBERT LAROSE

STEVE ETKA, National Organic Coalition

THEOJARY CRISANTES, Organic Farmer

VAL GEORGE, CCOF

VICTORIA ALVAREZ SAAVEDRA, Flavor Industry 
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 T-A-B-L-E O-F C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

 PAGE

Teleconference Technical Information 

 Dr. Jenny Tucker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5

Welcome and Introduction

 Dr. Paul Lewis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6

 Ms. Betsy Rakola . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7

 Chair Jean Richardson. . . . . . . . . . . . 9

PUBLIC COMMENTS:

MS Proposal, Research Priorities 

 Jessica Shade. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11

HSá2017áSunsetáReviews

205.605(a),á205.605(b),á205.606á 

 Paul Browner . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18

LSá2017áSunsetáReviews

 Kent Henderson. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .26

General Comments, MS Proposal,

Research Priorities 

 Steve Etka. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .36

CSá2017áSunsetáReviews

 Jeff Noland . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .41

General Comments

 Theojary Crisantes. . . . . . . . . . . . . .47

CSá2017áSunsetáReviews;áLSá2017áSunsetáReviews

 Margaret Scoles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .55

LS Annotation Change for Parasiticides 

 Val George. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .63

General Comments

 Barry Flamm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .68
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General Comments

 Goldie Caughlan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .77

CS,áHS,áLS,áMSá(Misc) 

 Jackie DeMinter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .88

HSá2017áSunsetáReviewsá205.605(b) 

 Diane Kull. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .95

General Comments

 Kevin Engelbert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 101

HSáProposal, Flavorsá

 Victoria AlvarezáSaavedra . . . . . . . . . 111

General Comments

 Aishwarya Balasubramanian . . . . . . . . . 118

HSá2017áSunsetáReviewsá205.605(b)

 Bob Blue. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 127

Call for any missed Speakers

 Jean Richardson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 131

Summary and Closing Remarks

 Jean Richardson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 134

 Paul Lewis. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 135

HSáProposal SodiumáLactateáandáPotassiumáLactate 

 Jane Parker . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 136

Closing Remarks and Adjournment. . . . . . . . . 141
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (1:00 p.m.)

3 DR. TUCKER: Okay everybody, this is

4 Jenny Tucker with the National Organic Program. 

5 I am your technology facilitator today. And so

6 if you are on the phone, and would also like to

7 follow with us online, you can go to

8 ReadyTalk.com and enter in the participant code

9 on the left, 7202 thousand. That will get you

10 into the online version.

11 We've requested that everyone stay on

12 mute throughout the call so we can minimize the

13 risk of background noise and interference. When

14 it is your turn for folks that signed up in

15 advance to give public comment, we will call you

16 and then you can unmute yourself. But in the

17 meantime, we'd like everybody else to just mute

18 themselves throughout the call.

19 So again, thank you very much for

20 joining us. If you run into problems you can

21 chat with us down in the left side of your

22 screen, so you can send us a message. So if
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1 you're having technical difficulties, the

2 ReadyTalk technical support is quite good. Go to 

3 ReadyTalk.com and they will help you out.

4 Okay. I'm going to go ahead and hand it

5 over to Paul. Dr. Paul Lewis is our new

6 Standards Division Director, and so I'm going to

7 turn it over to him for his welcome to the group.

8 DR. LEWIS: Thank you, Jenny. Good

9 afternoon, and welcome everyone to today's

10 teleconference. I'd like to welcome NB Members

11 and the public. Appreciate NOSB Members'

12 involvement in this call and all your efforts and

13 work serving on the Board.

14 I'm excited about the opportunity for

15 the Board to conduct a meeting via teleconference

16 that provides an important opportunity for

17 greater public access to NOSB meetings. In this

18 meeting, like other meetings of the NOSB, we

19 operate under the Federal Advisory Committee Act. 

20 I'm looking forward to hearing comments from the

21 public to assist the NOSB in preparing the

22 recommendations to USDA.
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1 I want to take a moment to thank my NOP

2 and Standards Division colleagues with the help

3 behind the scenes today to bring us to today's

4 teleconference on --

5 (Telephonic interference.)

6 DR. LEWIS: -- to a productive meeting,

7 and continuing our NOSB meetings to next week. 

8 Before I turn the meeting over to our Chair, I'd

9 like to welcome Betsy Rakola, USDA Organic Policy

10 Advisor, and invite her also to make a few

11 remarks.

12 MS. RAKOLA: Thank you Paul. Hello

13 everyone, thank you for joining us. Again, my

14 name is Betsy Rakola. I am the USDA Organic

15 Policy Adviser. I sit in the office of the Under

16 Secretary for Marketing and Regulatory Programs

17 and I'd like to read a brief statement from the

18 USDA.

19 USDA takes any complaints regarding our

20 operations seriously, and that is why AMS looks

21 into any formal complaints issued by outside

22 groups. This was the case when the Cornucopia
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1 Institute filed a complaint earlier this year.

2 AMS launched a thorough review and

3 ultimately found and determined that the

4 operations were in compliance and that there was

5 not sufficient evidence to conduct additional

6 investigations. Furthermore, there is no

7 investigation of the National Organic Program or

8 its staff happening by USDA's Inspector General. 

9 That is inaccurate.

10 The focus on any one public servant in

11 an attempt to damage his credibility is

12 inappropriate and without merit. USDA values and

13 has faith in Deputy Administrator Miles McEvoy's

14 leadership of the National Organic Program.

15 USDA's National Organic Program is the

16 bedrock regulatory program responsible for

17 developing national standards for organically

18 produced agricultural products. These standards

19 assure consumers that products with the USDA

20 organic seal meet consistent, uniform standards.

21 The USDA organic seal, and the NOP

22 program itself, have helped organic producers and
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1 businesses achieve unprecedented levels of growth

2 for organically produced products. The retail

3 market for organic products is now valued at more

4 than $39 billion, while USDA organic operations

5 have grown more than 250 percent since 2002.

6 USDA's National Organic Program is a leading

7 global standard and a major factor in this

8 success.

9 DR. LEWIS: Thank you, Betsy. Again,

10 this is Paul Lewis, and I'd like to turn the

11 meeting now over to our Chair. Jean?

12 Jean, are you there? I'm just getting

13 our Chair on board.

14 DR. TUCKER: Jean, are you with us?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: What, can you hear

16 me?

17 DR. TUCKER: Yes, now we can hear you. 

18 It was showing as mute, so you're unmuted now.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, yes I had

20 myself on mute. I was being obedient which is a

21 change, but there you go.

22 Today, in the state of Vermont it's a
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1 gorgeous 60 degrees. The sun is shining and the

2 mountains are snow-topped against the blue sky. 

3 And it's lots of lovely leaves are still in their

4 fall colors. So hopefully it will be a bit like

5 this when some of you come to Vermont next week.

6 I'd like to welcome you all to this

7 second session. I'm looking forward very much to

8 hearing from all of you. I'd like to start first

9 by asking Michelle if you could read out the NOSB

10 Members that are on the call today?

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello everyone, this is

12 Michelle. I have with us on the line, Ashley

13 Swaffar, Calvin Walker -- is somebody -- if

14 you're not talking please make sure you're on

15 mute. We're getting a little feedback here in

16 the office. Thanks.

17 So Calvin Walker, Carmela Beck, Colehour

18 Bondera, Francis Thicke, Harold Austin, Jean

19 Richardson, Lisa de Lima, Tracy Favre, and Zea

20 Sonnabend. Did we miss anyone?

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Sounds right.

22 MS. ARSENAULT: And Jean Richardson, I
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1 said Jean, right?

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, you did. Yes,

3 okay that sounds good. Well I'm -- when I look

4 at the computer here, I see that there's 40

5 people present out in the broader public and 68

6 on audio. So that's really a great bunch of

7 people on the call.

8 I'd like to call on the first speaker of

9 this afternoon, and that is Jessica Shade. And

10 when each of you come on to give your five minute

11 presentation, could you please -- talk loudly,

12 and say where you're from, so that the record

13 clearly reflects who's talking? Thank you very

14 much. Jessica, over to you.

15 MS. SHADE: Hi, can you hear me?

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, we can.

17 MS. SHADE: Great. So first I just want

18 to thank you so much for the opportunity to

19 provide these comments. My name is Jessica Shade

20 and I'm the Director of Science Programs for the

21 Organic Center. We are a non-profit organization

22 that covers up-to-date studies on sustainable
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1 agriculture and health. And we also collaborate

2 with academic and governmental institutions to

3 fill gaps in our knowledge.

4 So first of all I want to say thank you

5 to the Materials Subcommittee for its

6 recommendation on research priorities. We really

7 appreciate both the creation of the research

8 priorities framework and the efforts made by each

9 subcommittee to bring forth its research

10 priorities.

11 We were especially happy to see the

12 inclusion of research priorities related to

13 livestock management. And the development of

14 alternatives for materials on the national list. 

15 We really rely on the annual NOSB research

16 priorities to guide the development of our own

17 research projects.

18 And livestock management issues, and

19 materials or alternatives, are some of the topics

20 that we've also heard raised by stakeholders. To

21 that end, I also just want to say that we're

22 really excited about the Organic Trade
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1 Association's National --

2 (Telephonic interference.)

3 MS. SHADE: -- working group, and we

4 plan to support it and help it move forward. The

5 Organic Center is really eager to advise it on

6 scientific methods, identifying and coordinating

7 with researchers, and grant management, as

8 appropriate. 

9 So I'm just going to quickly highlight

10 a couple of our current projects that were

11 informed by NOSB priorities. And then go into a

12 few suggestions for additions to this year's

13 list.

14 So a few years ago the NOSB put out a

15 research priority to find alternatives to

16 antibiotics for Fire Blight, and the Organic

17 Center responded to that by collaborating with

18 researchers from the University of Washington to

19 provide critically needed information on how to

20 prevent Fire Blight from decimating apple and

21 pear orchards without the use of antibiotics.

22 And our report that's out now covers
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1 issues such as sanitation, vigor control,

2 sequence and timing of control materials, space

3 coverage, and varietal susceptibility, and it's

4 published online, it's available to the public. 

5 We've also been passing out hard copies and

6 traveling with researchers to provide

7 presentations about our findings.

8 We also have a project examining organic

9 solutions to control citrus greening disease,

10 which is a response to the 2014 NOSB priority for

11 plant disease management. And our project looks

12 at the efficacy of organic pesticides for

13 controlling the Asian citrus psyllid, tests

14 combinations of antimicrobial treatments, and

15 also tests non-GMO varieties of citrus for their

16 use in organic systems.

17 And we just finished the first phase of

18 the project which identified effective organic

19 compliant insecticides to fight the Asian citrus

20 psyllid. And now we're analyzing preliminary

21 data on the effectiveness of organic approved

22 antimicrobials.
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1 We're also addressing the NOSB 2014

2 priority area, soil building practices through

3 our collaboration with the National Soil Project

4 at Northeastern University, where we're looking

5 at specific soil matter components -- soil

6 organic matter components, to measure soil carbon

7 sequestration and soil health, while developing

8 a reference data base that will allow 

9 agronomists, farmers and environmental scientists

10 to correlate soil health and productivity with

11 agricultural practices.

12 We have several other projects going on,

13 but to keep this short I'm going to move on to

14 our suggestions for additions to this year's NOSB

15 research priorities.

16 So first I want to highlight the need

17 for more research on manure safety. As you know,

18 last fall the FDA proposed revisions to FSMA that

19 included changes for the required interval that

20 untreated manure could be applied, and they

21 suggested a nine month minimum interval

22 requirement, which directly contradicts the
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1 National Organic Program regulations for applied

2 application of raw manure.

3 And that ruling was not adopted, because

4 the FDA decided that further research was needed.

5 And we believe that it's really important for

6 organics to be involved in that research process. 

7 So the Organic Center is working with a team of

8 researchers to assess current practices used by

9 the organic industry related to manure and

10 rotational grazing, to conduct a needs

11 assessment, to gather information about the use

12 of animal-based soil amendments in organic

13 agriculture, and evaluate and characterize the

14 current practices and needs of organic producers,

15 and the result of that project -- just a minute

16 --

17 (Telephonic interference.)

18 DR. TUCKER: All right, Jessica, I

19 forgot to announce that when we started. 

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, so can you

21 just sort of wrap up, Jessica?

22 MS. SHADE: Wrap up, absolutely. So we
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1 just want to make sure it gets on the radar of

2 OREI priorities, so more research on manure

3 safety.

4 I also want to suggest including

5 pollinator health as a research priority. We

6 completed a review of scientific literature about

7 pollinator health and we really need more

8 research to confirm the specific best practices

9 used by organic that have beneficial effects on

10 pollinators, And methods for implementing them on

11 farms. So thank you so much.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you,

13 Jessica for your comments. Are there questions? 

14 I don't see any question marks coming up on my

15 screen. Are there questions for Jessica? I know

16 you also have written remarks as well, which we

17 will be looking at from your organization.

18 So the next speaker will be Paul

19 Browner, and he will be followed by Robert

20 Larose.

21 Paul, are you there?

22 MR. BROWNER: Yes, I'm here. Can you
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1 hear me?

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, thank you.

3 MR. BROWNER: Great. Okay, so in an

4 effort to keep things rolling, my name is Paul

5 Browner. I'm the global head of Regulatory

6 Affairs and Quality Management for DSM

7 Nutritional Products. We're a company that makes

8 a wide variety of nutritional products including

9 Omega-3. 

10 I have comments that I want to make on

11 -- primarily on fish oil, and touch on, if time

12 permits, on some other substances on 605(a) and

13 (b). So for fish oil, I want to hit on three

14 main topics, sustainability, contaminants, and 

15 plant-derived alternatives.

16 First of all, sustainability. It's

17 important to note that first and foremost, fish

18 are not fished for their fish oil. Fish is what

19 some people call a byproduct of the fish

20 agriculture industry. And it's turned into a

21 value-added product for consumers.

22 Although fishing remains a global
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1 concern, the fish that traditionally are used in

2 fish oils are not those that are over-exploited. 

3 Things like sea bass, and shark, and some species

4 of tuna. Fisheries such as the Peruvian fishery,

5 the Anchoveta Fishery are one of the most highly

6 regulated fisheries in the world. 

7 What is often misinterpreted as a poor

8 fishing season is the location of an anchovy

9 biomass. During some years when the Kelvin waves

10 are high, the biomass moves further offshore, and

11 what the inshore fishery's permitted. So it's

12 not to say the levels are low, but that the

13 biomass is further offshore.

14 The Subcommittee used the FAO report,

15 The State of World Fisheries and Agriculture. 

16 While FAO is a very respected agency of course,

17 I believe it over-generalizes the state of the

18 fisheries. Global fishing zones are huge and

19 it's my view that the FAO report is not the only

20 reference that needs to be reviewed. Non21 government organizations such as sustainable

22 fisheries partnerships are important, as the FAO
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1 report. 

2 The SFP surveyed individual fisheries

3 and fish stocks within a wide area. Each region

4 is separately evaluated for sustainability. 

5 Rather than the broad generalizations, situations

6 go down to individual fish stocks, individual

7 countries, and individual fisheries. 

8 If the NOSB wants to delve into this

9 complicated question, it should give itself

10 adequate time instead of potentially rushing to

11 judgment based on the over-generalization of the

12 FAO report. Sensational unsubstantiated claims

13 that the fish oil industry will be responsible

14 for the global collapse of the world's fisheries

15 is a truly uninformed opinion.

16 Contaminants in fish oil. Fish oil used

17 for human consumption is a highly refined oil

18 that undergoes classic refining steps to

19 eliminate or significantly reduce the amount of

20 environmental contaminants found in fish oil. 

21 The FDA itself will recommend we eat two to three

22 serving of fatty fish weekly. Health benefits
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1 far outweigh concerns of contaminants.

2 You know, for foods, for organic foods

3 some people fry with concentrated fish oils. 

4 Concentrating the oils also concentrates

5 contaminants. As an actual fact, I know one

6 company, American organic fish oils in the U.S.,

7 that uses actual concentrated oil. Often times

8 it's just highly refined oil that is not

9 concentrated.

10 Mercury for example, is a contaminant

11 often associated with fish oil. The technical

12 report of the -- on the laboratory analysis of 31

13 fish oil supplements, and they quote, every

14 product contains a measurable amount of mercury.

15 What are these measurable amounts? 

16 Average concentration of 2.9 parts per billion,

17 of 6 parts per billion? Even the Center for Food

18 Safety admits that, in their comments, that these

19 are well below the established FDA tolerance

20 level.

21 You can talk about fish oil with mercury

22 contamination, but the fish that are primarily
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1 sourced for oils are small pelagic fish, you

2 know, anchovies and sardines. They don't bio3 accumulate high levels of mercury. Levels are

4 further reduced through refining.

5 And to wrap up, we talked about plant6 derived alternatives, plant-derived alternatives

7 of Omega-3, ALA is a fatty acid. While this is

8 a recognized polyunsaturated fatty acid, the

9 health benefits of ALA, only a fraction of the

10 fatty acids are converted to EPA DHA in order to

11 be metabolized by the human body.

12 The conversion of ALA is very, very

13 inefficient, approximately about ten percent. 

14 Health conscious organic consumers receive only

15 a fraction of Omega-3 benefits from ALA. Plant16 based source of Omega-3 would not be an efficient

17 alternative to fish-based Omega-3.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That's the five

19 minute bell. Is that okay, Paul?

20 MR. BROWNER: Yes, just as a final

21 comment, if I could get just two more sentences

22 here?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Sure, go ahead.

2 MR. BROWNER: DSM strongly recommends

3 relisting of fish oil to the organic list upon

4 changing notation, and we encourage NOSB not to

5 move fish oil based on uninformed opinions and

6 loosely presented facts.

7 Please be informed that the true nature

8 of healthy fish oil does not have the dire

9 consequences on sustainability others will have

10 you believe.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank you very

12 much, Paul. I don't see any specific questions

13 coming in on my computer, and I said you would

14 comment --

15 DR. TUCKER: Tom Chapman, sorry. Tom

16 Chapman has a question.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Sorry?

18 DR. TUCKER: Tom Chapman has a question.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, Tom.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Hi, Paul.

21 MR. BROWNER: Tom.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: I have three questions for
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1 you. In your written notes, you state that the

2 primary source of your fish oil is from Peruvian 

3 fisheries. What do you mean by primary? Can you

4 quantify that for me?

5 MR. BROWNER: Well, for many, many

6 years, Tom, the Peruvian Fishery has been the

7 primary source for not only our fish oil, but

8 many, many fish oils that are marketed in the

9 U.S. 

10 It's not the only fishery. And many

11 organic fish oil -- or sorry, fish oil

12 manufacturers we start to see coming on line and,

13 you know, supplying all the fish oil from the

14 anchoveta industry, is not possible, basically. 

15 They have quotas, you know, they have quotas that

16 are very highly regulated. So what it means is

17 that some fish oil suppliers may have to qualify

18 other fisheries, other regions of ocean waters.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay?

21 MR. BROWNER: Great.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: And one other question, if
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1 I can?

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: You know the FAO code of

4 conduct for sustainable fishing and responsible

5 fishing, is that a requirement that DSM places on

6 its suppliers?

7 MR. BROWNER: It's one that we -- well,

8 we qualify fisheries. We always ask that

9 question, if they abide by the FAO requirements

10 for sustainable fishing. And it's --

11 sustainability is a pillar of the DSM business.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Paul. I

13 know that there are extensive comments from the

14 fish oil industry for us to read and they contain

15 all this in more detail, and that's been much

16 appreciated by those of us that are reading it.

17 The next presenter is Robert Larose and

18 he will be followed by Kent Henderson.

19 Robert, are you there? Robert Larose of

20 BioSafe Systems, if you're talking, we can't hear

21 you.

22 DR. TUCKER: We've been trying to find
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1 Robert on the list, but he's not showing up. 

2 Robert?

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Robert Larose does

4 not appear to be there. Robert, if you are

5 online, we can't hear you. So let us know, and

6 we could fit you in later on if that is the case.

7 So therefore our next speaker is Kent

8 Henderson, a veterinarian. Kent, you're up now.

9 MR. HENDERSON: Hello, can you hear me

10 now?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

12 MR. HENDERSON: Very good. I'm doing a

13 PowerPoint so I will just ask to have the slides

14 advanced as I go from slide to slide.

15 Thank you very much for inviting me this

16 afternoon. This is my second presentation. I

17 also did this four years ago. I'm a veterinarian

18 in a seven person practice in Northwest Vermont. 

19 I've been servicing dairy herds and their

20 parasite problems for the last 40 years.

21 I'm here today to ask the Board to

22 reduce the current restrictive meat and milk
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1 withholding times assigned for Fenbendazole, in

2 order to allow modern organic and dairy beef

3 farmers to better manage the health of their

4 herds, and also consider removing Ivermectin

5 dewormers with the approved product list, because

6 of their detrimental effect on dung beetles and

7 growing antiparasitic resistance development to

8 Ivermectin type deworming products. Next slide.

9 From the written comments in 2001, a

10 zero day milk withholding time was established

11 for Fenbendazole by the FDA. Peak Fenbendazole

12 level in milk is only 18 hundredths of a part per

13 million, occurring 24 hours after ingestion of

14 the product and FDA approved safe concentration

15 is determination to be 1.67 parts per million. 

16 So Fenbendazole's actual peak concentration in

17 milk is nearly ten times less than the safe FDA

18 concentration. Next slide.

19 This graph is from the 2001 FDA approval

20 submission and shows that blood concentration is 

21 clear, totally cleared in eight days, and is

22 below the safe level at three days. If a 14 day
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1 meat withhold for organic beef was adopted, it

2 would allow for another six day buffer for any

3 medication delivery variation. Next slide

4 please.

5 Current organic standards only allow for

6 emergency treatment for severely infested sick

7 cows. These current standards place the modern

8 organic dairy in jeopardy of bankruptcy by

9 forcing the farm to accept current -- to accept

10 negative non-organic prices for three months

11 while the milk clears after treatment with FBZ

12 for lungworm.

13 In this case, after finding 35 of their

14 65 cows coughing and showing signs of lungworm

15 infestation, this herd was fed aloe vera pellets,

16 diatomaceous earth, kelp, and Agrimoss as

17 directed by the certifier, but no improvement

18 occurred.

19 Cornell Lab diagnosis came back as

20 lungworm. So this organic producer resorted to

21 feeding Safe-Guard pellets to his dying -- in two

22 days the cows began to recover and normal
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1 production resumed.

2 This 65 cow Jersey dairy will lose over

3 $55,000 in milk sales due to the extensive 90 day

4 milk withhold period. The producer commented

5 that if lungworm infests his cows again, he will

6 be forced to drop out of organic production, so

7 he hopes that NOSB will reduce the unnecessary

8 milk withholding time. Next slide please.

9 These are the current classic deworming

10 strategies that have been proven to work well in

11 our non-organic herds. By placing restrictive

12 milk and meat withholding times on FBZ, organic

13 dairy producers are unable to deworm an entire

14 herd in the fall, or individual cows or heifers

15 at freshening when an immune system must be

16 working at peak performance. Next slide.

17 If parasite eggs are removed from the

18 whole herd in the early grazing season, load

19 stays low for the entire grazing season. 

20 Therefore, the whole herd needs to be dewormed. 

21 And it is not economically feasible to operate a

22 non-organic milk process while waiting out the
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1 excessive 90 day milk withholding time. Next

2 slide.

3 Proactive strengthening of immune

4 systems is a goal of organic producers because

5 they have chosen to care for their animals

6 without antibiotics and other antibacterial

7 drugs.

8 Proper vital security management goes

9 beyond just injecting cows with vaccine. It

10 requires adequate nutrients and trace minerals in

11 the diet, and removal of internal and external

12 parasites to promote a strong immune system. 

13 Next slide.

14 Internal parasites promote the TH2

15 pathway which competes with the proper immune

16 response to vaccines and leaves the calves

17 susceptible to secondary invaders like

18 coccidiosis and bovine respiratory disease. Next

19 slide.

20 355 stocker calves were placed in a

21 split trial design on pasture. Half were treated

22 with Fenbendazole and the other were untreated,
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1 controlled. Then the calves were moved onto the

2 feedlot, and half the controlled were left

3 untreated, and the other half were treated with

4 FBZ. The same with the treated pasture calves. 

5 Of the four groups in the feedyard, 60 percent of

6 the polled, that is the ones treated for

7 pneumonia, came from the group that received no

8 Fenbendazole on pasture or in the feedlot.

9 And there were only seven percent of the

10 polls came from the calves that were treated in

11 pasture and in the feedyard. The only difference

12 was the deworming, and it shows a negative effect

13 of internal parasites on natural immunity. Next 

14 slide. 

15 FBZ is the superior -- 

16 (Telephonic interference.) 

17 MR. HENDERSON: Could I go to my 13th

18 slide please for my closing remarks?

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, okay.

20 DR. TUCKER: Is it that?

21 MR. HENDERSON: Okay, and this is the

22 closest example that I could come to, to find an
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1 organic identified field trial where --

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Slide No. 13, Jenny.

3 DR. TUCKER: Yes, except I have the

4 inserted first slide, so his 13th slide is our

5 14th slide here.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Go ahead.

7 MR. HENDERSON: Okay, so what I'm seeing

8 on my screen is the photo of the pasture from the

9 buffalo herd?

10 DR. TUCKER: Is that what you want to be

11 showing, or?

12 MR. HENDERSON: Yes, that's what I want

13 to show. And so what this is showing is it's the

14 closest example I could come up to to an organic

15 identified field trial. And if you'll notice the

16 intact fecal pats across the pasture, this is

17 where Bison received eprinex pour-on. Eprinex

18 was extruded six days and killed off all the lung

19 beetles that would have ingested these manure

20 pats. 

21 So to assist organic cattle producers,

22 build soil health and subsequent water quality,
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1 Ivermectin dewormers should be removed from the

2 NOSB approved product list. For further evidence

3 of the lethality to dung beetles, please look at

4 sections in the written comments.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much,

6 Kent. And I know that the Board Members will be

7 getting copies of these slides so that we can

8 look at rest of them -- I believe there were 29,

9 so that we can review these prior to the meeting,

10 and certainly prior to the discussion document

11 that we'll be looking at later in the week, and

12 then in April.

13 I am not seeing any questions coming up.

14 DR. TUCKER: Francis has a question.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Francis?

16 MR. THICKE: Yes, can you hear me?

17 MR. HENDERSON: I got you, I can hear

18 you.

19 MR. THICKE: Okay, I got three quick

20 questions. One, how long do you think the

21 withholding time should be for Fenbendazole?

22 MR. HENDERSON: In milk it should be
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1 zero. It is always below the safe level in milk. 

2 I think it should go out to 14 days for beef. As

3 I said, baby calves are -- in cows that have been

4 dewormed, we've got data and it's in your written

5 comments, that those calves, it doesn't show up

6 in the tissue of bob veal, from newborn calves

7 from cows that have been dewormed.

8 MR. THICKE: Okay, Number 2, what about 

9 moxidectin, what's your opinion on that? If it

10 should stay or be taken off the list?

11 MR. HENDERSON: Moxidectin, I don't use

12 the product, I'm not real familiar. If it is an

13 Ivermectin-type product, I would not recommend

14 that it be used on organic cattle or any pasture

15 cattle.

16 MR. THICKE: Okay, and the third

17 question, currently we have a requirement that if

18 you use Fenbendazole, it requires a

19 veterinarian's prescription, and that's not the

20 case for Ivermectin currently. Do you think that

21 it should remain that a veterinarian has to

22 prescribe Fenbendazole to use it for an organic
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1 farmer?

2 MR. HENDERSON: It is not done so for

3 non-organic farms. I do not see why it would

4 have to be a veterinarian prescription item. I

5 know that it is sold over the counter, the blocks

6 are sold over the counter, and so it is not a

7 prescription item.

8 MR. THICKE: Okay, thank you.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much,

10 Kent, appreciate your comments.

11 The next speaker is Steve Etka, and

12 he'll be followed by Jeff Noland. Steve, are you

13 there?

14 MR. ETKA: I am, can you hear me?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

16 MR. ETKA: Great.

17 DR. TUCKER: I'm going to ask, Steve,

18 before you start, everybody please, please go on

19 mute. We are still getting some background

20 noise. I can't always tell who it is, so please

21 stop monitor and go on mute. Thanks so much. 

22 Steve?
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1 MR. ETKA: Okay, thanks. My name is

2 Steve Etka and I'm Policy Director for the

3 National Organic Coalition. I'd like to talk a

4 little bit about some of the things that NOC is

5 working on in Washington D.C. and how those

6 things relate to your work on the NOSB.

7 First we continue to be very pleased

8 that the NOSB is putting forth the list of

9 research priorities, and in addition to that

10 excellent list and discussion of research

11 priorities adopted by the Materials Subcommittee,

12 NOC is urging the addition of two topics to the

13 list.

14 First, methyl bromide alternatives for

15 organic strawberry production. Currently no

16 commercial scale organic strawberry nurseries

17 exist to supply organic strawberry transplants to

18 growers.

19 As a result organic strawberry growers

20 have no other choice than to purchase transplants

21 from conventional nurseries, which fumigate their

22 soils with the argon depleting chemical methyl
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1 bromide.

2 Now that methyl bromide has been

3 outlawed for use under the UN's Montreal protocol

4 since 2005, the U.S. has applied for an exemption

5 for the strawberry industry for the past ten

6 years. And NOC believes that the U.S. should

7 prioritize research on organic alternatives to

8 the use of methyl bromide in strawberry

9 production.

10 The second is celery powder. Non11 organic celery powder contains higher levels of

12 nitrates, thereby performing an important

13 antimicrobial function that organic celery cannot

14 provide in organic processed meat products.

15 This raises a couple of questions. 

16 First, why does non-organic celery powder contain

17 higher levels of nitrates? And is this desirable

18 from a health standpoint?

19 Second is, is it possible to modify the

20 growing conditions to grow celery organically to

21 obtain the same antimicrobial function?

22 We're also very pleased that the
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1 subcommittee has included a section calling for

2 more research on sanitizers and alternatives to

3 the use of chlorine.

4 I also wanted to note, to let you know

5 that in the congressional annual preparations

6 process, the Senate Appropriations Committee

7 included language noting the NOSB's work in this

8 regard. And urging USDA to consider these

9 priorities in crafting requests for research

10 proposals under two key USDA competitive grant

11 research programs.

12 The second issue I wanted to bring to

13 your attention is regarding the use of ionizing

14 radiation. Currently the organic rule prohibits

15 the use of ionizing radiation in organic, but

16 points to an FDA description of ionizing

17 radiation to guide handlers in knowing which

18 specific technologies are prohibited.

19 But on closer inspection, it appears

20 that the FDA description is too narrow. For

21 instance, our research has shown that a subset of

22 ultraviolet radiation, specifically UVB and C, is
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1 actually considered to be an ionizing, and yet

2 such UV technologies are not captured in the FDA

3 description of ionizing radiation.

4 As a result, we feel that there may

5 actually be some forms of ionizing radiation

6 technology that should be prohibited in organic

7 that are not, because of the inadequate FDA

8 description. NOC has written a memo to the NOP

9 raising this concern and we've recommended that

10 the NOSB take this issue up for further analysis

11 and public debate.

12 The last issue I'd like to raise is the

13 issue of animal welfare standards, and

14 particularly outdoor access for poultry. At the

15 last NOSB meeting, Miles McEvoy mentioned animal

16 welfare standards as being on the short list for

17 new NOP rules. Animal welfare standards are one

18 area where organic is most in need of

19 improvement, particularly in the area of outdoor

20 access for poultry.

21 NOC members are very eager to see

22 progress in the area. Unfortunately, we've heard
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1 some suggestions in Washington that the recent

2 avian influenza challenge that's faced in the

3 poultry sector could interfere with NOP plans to

4 strengthen rules with regard to outdoor access

5 for organic poultry.

6 NOC members argue that there is no

7 reason to delay the immediate improvements based

8 on the recent AI problems, in fact existing NOP

9 rules already allow for temporary confinement of

10 birds in emergency circumstances.

11 But in the long run, we would argue that

12 allowing poultry to have access to open air and

13 sunlight should be viewed as part of the solution

14 to pathogen problems, and not the problem itself.

15 NOC has submitted a short paper to the

16 NOP laying out some of the most recent science

17 about the relationship between avian influenza

18 and confinement versus outdoor access. And we'd

19 be happy to share that paper with NOSB members

20 too if that would be helpful. Thanks for the

21 opportunity to testify.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much,
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1 Steve. Questions are not coming to Jean

2 Richardson, maybe they're going to Chairperson,

3 but I'm not seeing any.

4 DR. TUCKER: I don't see any questions

5 on the screen. They have been coming for co6 presenters, so if you can't see that I'm not sure

7 what the problem is.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. So thank you

9 very much, Steve. Much appreciated and I know

10 we've read the -- I mean, you've sent to NOC and

11 sent in extensive other comments which I know

12 we've all read.

13 The next speaker is Jeff Noland, and

14 he'll by followed by Theojary Crisantes. Jeff

15 are you there?

16 MR. NOLAND: Hi there, yes I am here. 

17 Can you hear me?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

19 MR. NOLAND: Okay, perfect. Now thank

20 you all so much for allowing me to participate. 

21 I'm the Managing Director of a firm by the name

22 of EnergyWorks BioPower in Annapolis, Maryland. 
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1 And my comments today are regarding the

2 commencement of the proposed sunset of the

3 prohibition against using ash from manure burning

4 as an organic fertilizer ingredient.

5 So that the first point I would like to

6 make is within the National Organic Program

7 there's a compulsion for the NOSB to consider the

8 environmental value of a particular course of

9 action. And I will say as second that in our

10 region -- and also I think the initial comments

11 that were made today, reflect the fact that at

12 least around here manure is the single largest

13 contributor to water pollution. Certainly in the

14 Chesapeake Bay watershed, and in general in the

15 mid-Atlantic region.

16 And quite frankly, that something has to

17 be done about it. It's a major issue and it's

18 certainly the major issue in the Chesapeake Bay. 

19 One of the points that I would make is that I

20 know that it'd be great if we could dry all the

21 manure and put it in a form where it could be

22 easily transported. But it's just not practical
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1 to do that. And it creates the potential for

2 significant air emissions.

3 And from the people that have tried it,

4 a really big outfit in that category, Perdue

5 Farms, are not succeeding with it financially. 

6 One of the solutions that has evolved is to take

7 manure and use it to generate renewable power. 

8 This kind of an approach consumes very large

9 quantities of manure. And it can be a major

10 element in solving the excess manure challenge.

11 However, the economics of projects such

12 as that can be a struggle without a significant

13 amount of government intervention. An economic

14 model that maximizes the value of reclaimed

15 manure minerals is therefore crucial to the

16 viability of projects like that.

17 In being able to commit use to manure

18 minerals in an organic fertilization program more

19 than doubles the revenue that a renewed energy

20 facility can derive from these residues.

21 Another point is that reclaimed minerals

22 can replace calcium phosphates in an organic
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1 fertilization program. While manure minerals are

2 excluded from use, synthetic products that are

3 mined are not. And so it's very common to mine

4 phosphates to rely with, and declare excavation

5 a radioactive tailings.

6 And these tailings piles, or stacks as

7 they are called, are regulated by the U.S. EPA

8 and they are a major environmental hazard today

9 in phosphate mining regions such as Central

10 Florida. So a synthetic product that generates

11 significant quantities of regulated radioactive

12 waste is allowed within the organic list. But

13 non-synthetic manure minerals are prohibited.

14 I'm sorry to say that most organic

15 consumers, myself included, would find this to be

16 completely inconsistent with logic, and with the

17 organic mission.

18 So in light of this an open-ended

19 prohibition on using manure ash as it's called,

20 in organic fertilization programs really needs to

21 be allowed to sunset. And it needs to be

22 replaced with something that reflects the current
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1 reality. That way all -- manure is a major

2 weather pollutant. There are pollution control

3 solutions and for a chemical reaction to select

4 nutrients and operate under EPA regulated air

5 permits.

6 Then I wanted to talk to you about

7 uncontrolled open burning, but a controlled

8 environment reaction with the mission controls. 

9 Evidence that the prohibition has outlived its

10 original function is evidenced by a lack of

11 consensus on what it is supposed to be

12 prohibiting or promoting.

13 So for example, this technical panel

14 reviewed our material and purport to have been in

15 on its original conception. They say that it's

16 in place to prevent the loss of organic nitrogen

17 sources, but when the subcommittee voted

18 unanimously against sunsetting this, the current

19 organics, you know they said it had something to

20 do with carbon and the use of carbon in this.

21 So ash, and also ash from animal sources

22 which contain carbon are allowed but ash in the
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1 air is not. So it's inconsistent and by solving

2 the nitrogen imbalance problem, and putting

3 carbon to use in generating renewable power,

4 neither of those arguments hold water.

5 So I will say kindly, that this position

6 isn't just ours -- I mean our firm operates a

7 manure to energy system, but supported by the

8 Departments of Agriculture and the Environment,

9 and all Chesapeake Bay watershed states by the

10 U.S. EPA region affiliated with Chesapeake Bay

11 Program Office, by the Chesapeake Bay Commission,

12 and furthermore by the immediate environmental

13 organization in the Bay, the Chesapeake Bay

14 Foundation. So my point is, it's time to make a

15 change. We need to replace a prohibition that

16 promotes water pollution with a modern approach

17 reflective of today's reality.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank you very

19 much.

20 MR. NOLAND: Those are my comments.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jeff, thank you.

22 MR. NOLAND: You bet.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions for Jeff? 

2 Are there questions for Jeff? Sorry, I can't

3 hear you.

4 DR. TUCKER: We see no questions for

5 Jeff on the screen.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, me neither. 

7 Okay, thank you very much, Jeff.

8 MR. NOLAND: Thank you, any time.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

10 Theojary Crisantes, and he'll be followed by Bob

11 Blue.

12 Theojary, are you there?

13 MR. CRISANTES: Yes, I'm here. Can you

14 hear me?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

16 MR. CRISANTES: All right. I have a

17 presentation that has slides. Are they showing

18 up on the screen?

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I don't see anything

20 on the screen, and could you also tell us who you

21 -- you're an organic farmer. Could you tell us

22 something about yourself?
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1 MR. CRISANTES: Sure, my name is

2 Theojary Crisantes, I'm an organic farmer. I

3 work in Wholesum Harvest, I'm the Vice President

4 of Organic Production. We're based out of

5 Nogales, Arizona.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. And I

7 don't see anything on the screen, was this some

8 material that you sent in ahead of time?

9 MR. CRISANTES: Yes, I did.

10 MS. ARSENAULT: This is Michelle, and

11 sorry I don't recall getting your PowerPoint

12 presentation. I'll look for it, but will you be

13 able to continue without it?

14 MR. CRISANTES: Yes, I can continue

15 without it, it's no problem.

16 DR. TUCKER: Before you start talking,

17 I'm going to ask once more to go on mute when

18 you're not speaking. If you're not speaking go

19 on mute.

20 Okay, go ahead.

21 MR. CRISANTES: Okay. Good afternoon,

22 thank you for your time. My name is like I said
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1 Theojary Crisantes. I'm an organic farmer of

2 tomatoes, cucumbers, squash, pepper, and eggplant

3 from our family farms in the United States and

4 Mexico.

5 My grandfather planted his first crop in

6 Mexico over 85 years ago. Then my father read

7 Rachel Carson's Silent Springs several decades

8 ago and switched organic operations to organic

9 production. The book highlighted for our family

10 and for many of our customers the important

11 ecological interconnections between nature and

12 human society.

13 The feedback we get from consumers of

14 our products is that the most important reason

15 for buying organic produce is that it's

16 practically free from chemicals not found in

17 nature. They feel organic offers a better

18 solution to their concerns for their own health,

19 the health of the workers in the fields, and the

20 reduced impact on the complex web of life found

21 in their natural environment.

22 In our company, we are passionate
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1 to make organic vegetables available to everyone. 

2 Not just for those with high incomes. We want

3 all Americans to enjoy the benefits afforded by

4 having access to organically grown vegetables. 

5 These efforts have lead us to choose several

6 technology packages that help us minimize the

7 impact on the natural environment.

8 Many of our farms are located in

9 established agricultural valleys where the

10 balance of nature has been disrupted over 100

11 years of productions. We found that often times,

12 the best way to create a sustainable and thriving

13 organic system is to exclude from our production

14 sites, pests and diseases that cannot be

15 effectively controlled by our existing organic

16 methods.

17 For example, for squash we have

18 minimized the use of a lot of chemicals by

19 incorporating floating row covers to help exclude

20 aphids while still being planted in the outer

21 crust of the earth.

22 For peppers, deleting the presence of
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1 the pepper weevil in our main production sites --

2 our production areas that lack the beneficial

3 predator insects, we found that we can minimize

4 the impact on the environment by growing in shade

5 houses, which are mesh covered steel structures

6 covering the soil. The shade house allows us to

7 exclude the damaging pests and virtually

8 eliminate the need for chemical sprays.

9 For tomatoes the disease, pest, and

10 environmental pressure are extremely high in the

11 open field production areas. We experimented and

12 discovered that we could -- that we end up using

13 heavy loads of chemicals and other scarce

14 resources while we are still rarely producing a

15 commercial, viable, organic crop.

16 We have invested in glass houses where

17 we grow our tomatoes in containers. The

18 greenhouse system allows us to have a primary

19 disease and pest control system to the exclusion

20 of damaging organisms such as fusarium,

21 verticillium, and nematodes.

22 At the same times the organic -- the
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1 greenhouse increases the efficiency of our

2 beneficial insect program. Growing our plants in

3 containers system allows us to reduce the water

4 use by 80 percent and to reduce the need of

5 production areas by 90 percent, helping us to

6 preserve critical natural habitat and resources.

7 We are strong believers in the food --

8 in the solid food way and apply its principle to

9 all of our operations, even in the containers in

10 the greenhouse. We create living environments

11 with significant, diverse, biologicals natured by

12 our own compost heap to help us grow healthier

13 and more productive plants.

14 We believe that our greenhouse

15 operations meet the standards of biology,

16 diversity, and natural growing media in the 2010

17 NOSB recommendations. As an added benefit we use

18 the combination of production technologies that

19 allow our company to move virtually all of our

20 employees to full-time, year-round work, helping

21 to eliminate the need to migrate from region to

22 region throughout the year to feed and care for
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1 their families.

2 Nevertheless, we understand that what is

3 the most environment sustainable solution for our

4 operations will not necessarily be the best for

5 other crops and other production regions.

6 As the community moves forwards to

7 debate whether hydroponics and aquaponics have a

8 place in the organic industry, we should be

9 careful not to stunt the evolution of methods and

10 systems that help make organics more accessible

11 for our customers.

12 We must find that a careful balance to

13 avoid -- we must find a careful balance to avoid

14 either excluding approaches that might be truly

15 more environmentally sustainable, or creating a

16 set of exceptions that is neither consistent nor

17 logical.

18 We are ready to share our experience and

19 knowledge and the task force, and look forward to

20 helping the Board, and the industry, move forward

21 on the issue of hydroponic roles in organics. 

22 Thank you for your time.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, that was

2 a great presentation. Much appreciated. And I

3 know that the PowerPoint should be able to be

4 made available to all of us. Is that correct

5 then, Michelle?

6 MS. ARSENAULT: Yes, I just searched my

7 email and I don't see it. So if you could

8 forward it to me, I will make sure the Board gets

9 it. Sorry about that, thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So Theojary, do you

11 know the right email address to send it to?

12 MR. CRISANTES: I believe is --

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Michelle Arsenault.

14 MR. CRISANTES: Yes. 

15 Michelle.arsenault@ams.usda.gov?

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct

17 and she'll get it to the Board.

18 MR. CRISANTES: Great, I will do that.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much.

20 The next speaker is Bob Blue, and after

21 Bob it will be Margaret Scoles. Bob, are you

22 there?
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1 (No audible response.)

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Bob Blue from Fetzer

3 Vineyards?

4 DR. TUCKER: We don't see Bob's area

5 code on the screen, and his name is not listed as

6 somebody who dialed himself in.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. I do know that

8 we have written materials that have also been

9 sent in from Fetzer Vineyards, so perhaps that

10 will be adequate. But Bob if you're out there,

11 and we can't hear you, feel free to call in and

12 see if we can add you in at the end.

13 So therefore, the next speaker will be

14 Margaret Scoles of the IOIA, and she'll be

15 followed by Val George.

16 Margaret, are you there?

17 MS. SCOLES: I'm here. Can you hear me?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, we can hear you. 

19 Thank you.

20 MS. SCOLES: I am Margaret Scoles, the

21 Executive Director of the International Organic

22 Inspectors Association, located in Broadus,
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1 Montana.

2 Very appreciative of this web-based

3 opportunity to provide comment. It's a great new

4 way to do it. I won't be in Vermont with you,

5 although our organization will be sending someone

6 to that meeting. And we've already submitted

7 extensive written comments, so I won't repeat

8 everything that's in the written comments.

9 First, just a little bit more about who

10 we are and why we're commenting. The

11 International Organic Inspectors Association is 

12 a globally organized membership association of

13 organic farm, livestock, and processing

14 inspectors in more than a dozen countries. And

15 we are the leading voice for organic inspectors.

16 Our mission is to address issues and

17 concerns of organic inspectors, provide quality

18 inspector training, and to promote consistency

19 and integrity in the organic certification

20 process.

21 Our members represent a wide range of

22 participants in the organic sector. Two members
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1 of our Board of Directors are certified organic

2 farmers. And our members, although they may not

3 be certified, see thousands of certified organic

4 operations in the course of their annual

5 inspections. The annual inspections are of

6 course one of the critical components to the

7 certification process.

8 About 68 percent of our inspector

9 members are based in the U.S., but more than

10 that, inspect to the NOP because the NOP is

11 applicable to our members in Costa Rica, and

12 Australia, and most other places in the world.

13 So, I wanted to start with a general

14 comment. We did submit comments to each of the

15 three subcommittees. But our focus is really on

16 materials for farmers and livestock producers. 

17 And the reason that we chose that focus is that

18 we think that handlers are usually -- maybe not

19 always, there are a lot of small handlers that

20 may be in a better position to speak to the

21 materials that they need to stay on the list, but

22 farmers are less likely to make the trip to
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1 participate. And that's why I think these web

2 sessions are so important.

3 And they are a lot more likely to

4 suddenly find that a material that they use has

5 fallen off the list. So our general comment to

6 you as a Board is just because there aren't lots

7 of farmers speaking to keeping a material on the

8 list, doesn't mean it should not still be on the

9 list.

10 And we reviewed all the materials that

11 were up for sunset review and commented on most,

12 but not all of them, because some of them we

13 didn't necessarily have a strong opinion on.

14 I just chose a few to comment on. On

15 the crop list, we think it's essential that

16 ethylene for regulation of pineapple flowering,

17 be kept on the list. It's just important to

18 allow for coordinated transport of organic

19 pineapples. And this material is equally

20 important to all pineapple producers, no matter

21 whether they're small or large.

22 And then there is some materials that
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1 are up for review, which sometimes you wonder why

2 we would speak to them, because you're probably

3 already in favor of them. But in case you have

4 any questions, there are many, many producers

5 using liquid fish, copper, sulfur, and humic

6 acid.

7 I wanted to share something with you

8 from the Chair of our Board of Directors, who is

9 a professional agrologist. He wrote something on

10 humic acids and he said, humic acids are the

11 essential component of naturally occurring soil

12 organic matter.

13 And one of the few standards that didn't

14 allow for humic substances, was alkali extracted

15 humic acid, was the JAS standard. But now that

16 we have NOP/JAS Equivalency Agreement this

17 barrier is no longer an issue for U.S. farmers.

18 He inspects hundreds of farms and he

19 said that roughly ten percent of the organic

20 farms he inspected out of 200 farms, use humic

21 extracts. And the majority of these were in

22 regions with a naturally low organic matter
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1 levels.

2 And so he wrote a little bit about the

3 benefits of that, but I will just, it's an

4 example of where you may not get lots of farmers

5 who show up to say please keep humic acid on the

6 list, but there are a lot of farmers who would be

7 really startled to discover that a material that

8 they knew was on the list was no longer there.

9 We also really support your proposal for

10 changing the annotation for micronutrients. We

11 think that's more, allows more flexibility and is

12 very sensible. The livestock issue, I just

13 wanted to see what -- does that mean that's my

14 final -- 

15 (Telephonic interference.)

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Margaret, that's your

17 five minutes up. Is this something that you've

18 already put in writing?

19 MS. SCOLES: We --

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: In your comments?

21 MS. SCOLES: Not exactly, I mean not

22 this, not what I was just going to say.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, could you just

2 be real quick and add it? That would be good.

3 MS. SCOLES: Sure, I just wanted to

4 share the fact that I visited with a producer

5 this summer on an inspection. And he was

6 concerned that, he said, I hear they're taking

7 vaccines away from us. And I, and he said I

8 heard the fact that vaccines are off the list.

9 And I said, I'm quite sure that they are

10 part of a required preventive program and the

11 organic standards. And I'm sure that they're not

12 coming off the list. But when I thought about

13 it, it did seem that it was worth bringing it up

14 that producers don't always feel that they can

15 come to the NOSB and say, we need vaccines and so

16 I'm saying it for them.

17 Actually, that's all I had to say, and

18 our written comments have everything else. Thank

19 you.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank you very

21 much, Margaret. It was very helpful and

22 informative. I don't see any questions coming up
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1 on my screen.

2 MR. AUSTIN: Jean.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, is that Harold?

4 MR. AUSTIN: Yes, ma'am.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Hi, Harold. Harold

6 is not on my screen, but he's on the phone line,

7 so this Harold Austin in Washington, Margaret.

8 MR. AUSTIN: Thanks, Jean.

9 Margaret, thank you. I've read your

10 comments. You started your presentation talking

11 a little bit about the ethylene and the need to

12 keep it for -- because it was used by all sizes

13 of growers.

14 Could you elaborate on that just a

15 little bit from the inspectors side of the -- the

16 size of the operations or the need? That it's

17 not just one particular segment. Is it all

18 segments, as far as sizes and stuff, of organic

19 pineapple producers that relied upon this

20 material?

21 MS. SCOLES: It's my understanding based

22 on the input of our Board of Directors, who sent
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1 these comments, most of us don't inspect

2 pineapple, but some of us do. And that was the

3 comment of the Latin American inspector was

4 everyone needs it, everyone uses it, this is not

5 something that just large producers use.

6 Because what it does is synchronizes

7 flowering so that the harvest can be -- get to

8 market in a more manageable way.

9 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. Thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Margaret. 

11 The next speaker is Val George, and Val will be

12 followed by Barry Flamm. Val, are you there?

13 MS. GEORGE: Hello, can you hear me?

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: You're extremely

15 faint.

16 MS. GEORGE: Okay, let me turn up some

17 volume here.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Sometimes if you're

19 just only speak on the computer, you have to

20 really speak up quite loud.

21 MS. GEORGE: Okay, is that a little

22 better?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That's much better,

2 yes.

3 DR. TUCKER: Could we also have

4 everybody else go on mute, please? There's some

5 background noise. Please go on mute when you're

6 not talking. Okay, go ahead.

7 MS. GEORGE: My name is Val George, and

8 I'm a farm certification supervisor at CCOF.

9 Thank you for your work to maintain

10 organic integrity and also for the opportunity to

11 share our comments. We really appreciate this. 

12 I would like to start by addressing the issue of

13 synthetic parasiticides in organic livestock

14 production.

15 Organic livestock producers primarily

16 utilize their experience, and deep understanding

17 of pasture management as a means of controlling

18 parasites. Even so, there are still occasions

19 when preventive tactics are not enough to

20 overcome a heavy parasite load, and it is during

21 these times that organic farmers and ranchers

22 need tools to help keep their herd healthy.
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1 CCOF supports the continued listing of

2 both ivermectin and moxidectin at least until

3 nonsynthetic alternatives are widely available.

4 It is important to note that we do not see these

5 products used as a crutch to support poor

6 management, but rather in cases when there has

7 been a documented emergency, whether through

8 fecal tests, animal condition reports, and/or

9 veterinarian recommendations.

10 While we agree that there is tremendous

11 value in protecting dung beetles, and the organic

12 community should remain united on that front, the

13 problematic issue seems to be the persistent use

14 of products like ivermectin having long term

15 negative impacts on the beetles. Organic

16 regulations strictly prohibit persistent and

17 routine use.

18 Organic livestock producers work very

19 hard to protect their soil biodiversity because

20 they also know the benefits of a healthy and

21 balanced eco-system.

22 I would also note that many of the
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1 studies cited on the impact of ivermectin on dung

2 beetles were not conducted on organic farms. And

3 perhaps there is something to be gained from an

4 organic system that inherently supports a more

5 robust soil microbe community.

6 Similarly, concerns about parasite

7 resistance are valid, but I would just reiterate

8 that we do not see these products being used in

9 a way that would lead to resistance. We see them

10 used cautiously and as a last resort when herd

11 health is compromised.

12 Furthermore, we support changes to the

13 parasiticide annotation to ensure that these

14 tools are only for emergency use. CCOF

15 encourages an annotation change that includes

16 additional required documentation that is

17 sensible and supports organic integrity.

18 Organic livestock producers need tools

19 to protect animal health. The welfare of their

20 animals is their top priority, and having access

21 to materials like vaccines, hydrogen peroxide,

22 iodine, aspirin, and parasiticides provide the
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1 opportunity to diligently maintain a whole

2 systems approach that supports resilient, healthy

3 animals, while also knowing they have sound and

4 practical list of allowed materials when

5 preventive measures are not effective and

6 nonsynthetic alternatives are not available.

7 Removing of these materials could result

8 in either large numbers of organic animals

9 removed from certification, or worse, compromise

10 the welfare of the animal.

11 Even beyond these healthcare practices,

12 CCOF recommends that the broader topic animal

13 welfare be a top priority and encourages further

14 research and development of standards focusing on

15 this area. Thank you for your time.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much,

17 Val. I have to say, that it was not always easy

18 to quite catch what you were saying, so my first

19 question is: are many of these comments that

20 you've just made also in the written comments

21 submitted by CCOF?

22 MS. GEORGE: Yes, most of them are in
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1 the written comments as well.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, very good. So

3 I don't see any questions coming up for you, so

4 I very much appreciate your comments.

5 Before I turn to Barry, I will point out

6 that Bob Blue has --- is able to call in, and

7 we're going to add him in at the end of all the

8 people that in sequence that we have coming up.

9 So the next speaker is Barry Flamm, and

10 he'll be followed by Goldie Caughlan. If you're

11 there and if Goldie isn't, we will move on to

12 Steve Sprinkel because I know that Goldie may or

13 may not be on at this time.

14 Barry Flamm, you're up.

15 MR. FLAMM: Hi, can you hear me?

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

17 MR. FLAMM: All right, I want to give

18 out a special "Hello", to the Board Members I

19 have worked with in the past. And this is the

20 first time, figuratively speaking, that I sit on

21 a different side of the table from the Board.

22 As most of you know, I'm a former NOSB
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1 member and served on the Environmental seat from

2 2008 to January 2013. As a true volunteer, not

3 receiving any compensation or any assistance from

4 anyone.

5 Chair Rigo Delgado appointed me to the

6 three committees, Crops, Compliance Accreditation

7 and Certification, and the Policy Development

8 Committee. And they made me Chair of that

9 Committee soon after. I served in that capacity

10 until being elected Board Chair in my last year. 

11 Therefore, I know something about NOSB, and my

12 comments today are primarily about process.

13 There's not enough time to summarize my

14 background but for those who don't know me, I've

15 many years' experience in education in

16 conservation and organic, nationally,

17 internationally with governments, NGOs, private

18 companies et cetera. I spent 27 years in the

19 U.S. government, mostly in the USDA Agency.

20 Presently I'm engaged in conservation

21 consulting and volunteer activities with a number

22 of conservation, agriculture groups, including
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1 the Montana Organic Association, which I was

2 involved in its founding and the Cornucopia

3 Institute as a Board member.

4 My first Board meeting, NOSB people

5 meeting with us, was Spring of 2008 in Baltimore. 

6 I was very impressed by the member and the public

7 presentations and the seriousness that the Board

8 paid to those presentations.

9 Of my many public meetings over the

10 years, this was superior. And public input was

11 and is very important to the Board. In fact, a

12 major duty as voice of the organic community. 

13 The Board has served a vital role from the very

14 beginning of USDA Organic Program, holding

15 meetings and controlling of public regulations

16 for implementing the initial organic regulations.

17 When these recommendations were ignored

18 by USDA, there was unprecedented public response

19 leading to the regulations rewrite, excluding

20 undesirable features such as allowing GMOs.

21 To guide its important activities, the

22 Board developed a Policy and Procedure Manual,
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1 the PPM. Policies were developed with public

2 review and comments before the Board votes. As

3 the Board at work matured, issues arose that was

4 need for revision, which was done and very

5 transparently.

6 And some of the proposed changes came

7 directly from public comment. At the time of --

8 and none of the Board was around at this time --

9 the time of my appointment, Dr. Robertson was

10 Deputy Administrator for Transportation and

11 Marketing in AMS. The NOP was buried in that

12 organization at that time, with a staff of only 

13 seven and a budget of one and a half million.

14 To put it lightly, Dr. Robertson was not

15 an organic person, and often in conflict with the

16 office. And did not really believe in the

17 material concept. Then in 2008 political changed

18 organics, substantially increased financially and

19 added to USDA for clarity. Support for organics

20 and pledge for organic integrity from farm to

21 table, consumers trusted the organic label. 

22 Great, we were enthused.
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1 The Board worked with the new Deputy

2 Administrator, Miles McEvoy to help make this a

3 reality. Working with Mr. McEvoy, procedures

4 were improved. NOSB/NOP collaboration was

5 developed by the PDC and approved by the full

6 Board as of October 10th meeting. At the same

7 time, the strength of organic integrity, the

8 Policy Committee proposed a revision in the

9 Policy and Procedure Manual for the Sunset

10 Procedures, to better achieve the mandates of

11 office. These changes had the support of Mr.

12 McEvoy.

13 My direct involvement with the Board in

14 these issues ended when my term expired in

15 January 2013. However, I was taken by surprise

16 and shocked when I learned the NOP effectively

17 just disbanded the Policy Development Committee

18 and indicated that the Policy and Procedure

19 Manual was no longer in force.

20 The most immediate and serious result of

21 these changes was that on September 13, Mr.

22 McEvoy announced changes in approval of the
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1 petition process. And most critically, the

2 Sunset Procedures were dramatically changed,

3 requiring a two-thirds vote to remove the listed

4 material, rather than the required two-thirds

5 vote to keep it from --

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That indicates five

7 minutes. Do you have much more?

8 MR. FLAMM: I just have a couple points. 

9 I want to point out the concern that the authors

10 of the -- Senator Patrick Leahy and Peter DeFazio

11 -- expressed on the changes and urged the

12 Secretary of Agriculture to reverse this policy.

13 The other thing is, my major concern is

14 the effect this is having on organic integrity

15 and the fact the Consumers Union has downgraded

16 the organic seal.

17 What I recommend is that, to restore it

18 and its devaluing of the organic, the seal. It's

19 to return to the PPM August 12th, the version of

20 then PPM and then use the process that was setup

21 to make changes. And changes, of course, will be

22 needed as they have in the past.
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1 And I'd like to see the authority of

2 NOSB restored -- the full authority -- like the

3 development on its own, intended. Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thanks you

5 very much. Barry, as one Chair to a former

6 Chair, I can appreciate what it was like for you

7 when you were chairing things. I believe I have

8 a question on the line from Tracy Favre, who's

9 presently the Chair of the Policy and Procedures

10 Subcommittee. Tracy.

11 MS. FAVRE: Hi, Barry. Thanks for

12 sending us your comments and your perspectives

13 today. When you say the regular process for

14 receiving comments and collaboration, can you

15 elaborate on that a little bit, please?

16 MR. FLAMM: Yes. I think one, is that

17 they we would consult and work together on

18 developing the work plans. And take into account

19 the --

20 (Telephonic interference.) 

21 MR. FLAMM: ---- of the NOP, but leaving

22 in the final decision with the Board. So it
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1 could appropriately advise the Secretary and

2 fulfill its requirements.

3 It was a lot of trying to clarify the

4 staff's, clarifying and you know, the

5 perspective, what is now called subcommittees. 

6 The committee would present its work plan to the

7 Executive Committee, this would be discussed. 

8 And everyone would have a chance to talk about

9 it.

10 There wouldn't be any surprises in the

11 work plan. And that the NOP would, you know, be

12 able to express their needs. And it was just to

13 clarify what had been in the Policy and Procedure

14 Manual before, but to strengthen it because the

15 full intent was to work together for the benefit

16 of the organic community.

17 MS. FAVRE: Okay, Jean, may I ask --

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, certainly, want

19 to follow up?

20 MS. FAVRE: Yes, I just wanted to

21 clarify, Barry. That actually is how the process

22 works currently. And maybe we just didn't put
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1 language in there clearly enough to fully

2 articulate that. But something to look at, so

3 thank you for your comments.

4 MR. FLAMM: Yes, I actually, from

5 reading it and looking at it, I thought that

6 section had been deleted. But it was very, I had

7 three different computer screens up, looking at

8 the different versions and comments. And so it

9 was difficult for me to interpret that. So if

10 that's the case, I'm very happy to hear that and

11 I, you know --

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, we should

13 probably add, Barry, that we had a heck of a time

14 trying to do redline version I can tell you. I'm

15 also on that subcommittee, and it proved so tough

16 I think we all went crazy looking at all the

17 underlining and the redlines.

18 So in the end, we generated a clean

19 document and hoped you could do your own

20 comparison, but I agree. It's not easy to do,

21 but I think they've -- we are making some good

22 progress and really appreciate your comments for
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1 that. Thank you.

2 Our next speaker is Goldie Caughlan,

3 Caughlan, yes, Goldie Caughlan. Are you there

4 Goldie?

5 MS. CAUGHLAN: Yes, I just got on. 

6 Unfortunately, I was not on to hear Barry's talk. 

7 I'm sorry.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, that's okay. So

9 the, just a few --

10 MS. CAUGHLAN: What did Barry speak to?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Your name and the

12 organization that you represent, that would be

13 good. Thank you.

14 MS. CAUGHLAN: Hello. I represent my

15 own views, but I also represent as a member of

16 the Board of the Cornucopia Institute, and as a

17 former member of the NOSB from January of 2001

18 until my five years were up, 2006.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, go ahead.

20 MS. CAUGHLAN: Yes, I as I say, I'm

21 sorry that I don't know what Barry covered,

22 perhaps I'm covering some of the same.
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1 I was wanting to speak to a sense of

2 disappointment at what I feel is becoming an

3 almost intolerably difficult situation for all of

4 the members of the NOSB, who I know from personal

5 experience worked very, very hard and are trying

6 desperately to work on always growing list of

7 things to do.

8 But it seems to me that with the loss of

9 the -- and perhaps Barry spoke to this -- but

10 with the loss of the Policy and Procedure Manual,

11 which did outline much of the intent and the

12 types of work that, and how those should be

13 undertaken, and which had gone through the NOSB,

14 pardon me. Had gone through the federal register

15 and had been approved and so forth.

16 And to have had that just completely

17 plucked away.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Goldie, I do need to

19 interrupt you, just a slight sort of correction

20 is that we have in fact got an active Policy and

21 Procedure Manual, and that's what was put out for

22 public comment.
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1 It's an edited version of the one that

2 was from 2010.

3 MS. CAUGHLAN: Yes.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We do in fact have --

5 we have not lost the PPM. So if you could sort

6 of, you know, go on from there. And Barry did

7 talk about this a little bit.

8 MS. CAUGHLAN: Okay. So I just wanted

9 to be sure that I register my concern, and thank

10 you for that.

11 But also I just want to say that I think

12 that at the time that I served on the Board, we

13 underwent a lot of difficulty working with the

14 leadership at the USDA. It was on ongoing

15 situation, but we struggled through it and we had

16 also a lot of good relationships, but it

17 frequently became almost impossible to do our

18 work. But again, it seemed that things were

19 going in a much better direction. And I'm deeply

20 disturbed to see what appears to be just an

21 extraordinary, cantankerous, situation.

22 And I also feel that some of the worst
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1 parts that really concern me, because I

2 represented also people who everyday just go to

3 the grocery store and get food, and are dedicated

4 to organic, or to the best quality food that they

5 can get for their family.

6 Because I worked in a consumer

7 cooperative for more than 33 years and that was

8 my role was to work directly with the public,

9 which I guess was why I was placed on the Board

10 in the first place --- just to represent the

11 voice of the consumer.

12 And I do know that the food cooperative

13 that I worked for -- which is the largest in the

14 United States -- continues to get a lot of

15 concerns; consumers continuing to ask questions

16 about the quality of organic.

17 There's a great deal of confusion about

18 what organic ingredients are, why are there so

19 many synthetics, and so forth. And you know they

20 don't understand.

21 I believe that a great deal of the

22 problem is that the -- under the current
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1 situation, there seems to be very, very huge lag

2 time, or difficulty in getting the technical

3 reviews that you as Board Members need to work

4 with at all times. And I feel that, that is

5 extremely unfortunate and also that there is no

6 transparency now.

7 We, as consumers, have no way of knowing

8 really what kind of support you do get

9 ultimately. What is the quality of those

10 technical reviews upon which the decision to

11 either place synthetics, for example, or to

12 utilize organics. There is just very, very

13 limited -- it seems to me -- transparency.

14 And I know that from working, struggling

15 to even make sense of a lot of the TRs. So we

16 have --

17 (Telephonic interference.) 

18 MS. CAUGHLAN: -- inputs that are used

19 in the fields and so forth.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank you. 

21 Goldie, that's really good. So the five minutes

22 there is up, and I know that I have some
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1 questions from Tracy Favre for you.

2 MS. CAUGHLAN: I beg pardon.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I have questions for

4 you from Tracy Favre. She is currently the Chair

5 of the Policy and Procedures Subcommittee.

6 MS. CAUGHLAN: Yes. Thank you.

7 MS. FAVRE: Hi, Goldie. Thanks for your

8 comments today.

9 MS. CAUGHLAN: Sure.

10 MS. FAVRE: And appreciate your service

11 on the Board. I know things were a little bit of

12 a wild west back in the early days. And you guys

13 laid the path for the rest of us today.

14 I have a couple of questions for you. 

15 Just, and I did want to reiterate Jean's comments

16 about the Policies and Procedures Manual. We do

17 actually currently have a PPM; it was presented

18 with proposals for public comment. And that is

19 in the federal register. So we do have

20 transparency on that document. I want to allay

21 your concerns in regards to that.

22 And I would also just like to speak to
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1 the collaboration between the program and the

2 NOSB. I'd say that you are right, it has been a

3 contentious relationship in the past. But I, for

4 one, have found the program generally --

5 generally --- willing to hear our counsel and

6 discuss points with us.

7 Certainly we have some constraints just

8 by the nature of what we are -- have authority to

9 implement. And sometimes we need clarity where

10 that line is. But so I just want to speak to

11 that.

12 But so, the comment about the TR lag

13 time and the quality of the TRs, I actually found

14 that the TRs get done in a pretty quick order,

15 given that the subcommittee makes the

16 determination on a TR requirement and then turns

17 it back to the program. So can you tell me a

18 little bit more about what your concerns are on

19 the lag time? And why you think that might be

20 taking too long?

21 MS. CAUGHLAN: Why do I think it's

22 taking too long? I don't know, it appears that. 
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1 I had some notes here, I'm trying to find them on

2 a different screen now, and I can't find my

3 notes. Oh, well I'll just go from -- I'll wing

4 it.

5 But the fact of the matter is I know

6 that working -- we have staff at Cornucopia that

7 has been going through and has given many, many

8 comments on materials that are under review for

9 sunset and so forth.

10 And of course we are critical of the --

11 at Cornucopia representing what kinds of

12 interests that we hear voiced from our consumers,

13 are concerned about the fact that there is not,

14 there does not appear to be a full transparency

15 in who are those who actually provide those

16 reviews.

17 And not only as to their training, or

18 their ability to be the preparers, but also as to

19 any disclosure of who they are. So who knows

20 what their conflicts may be. So that, that can

21 have obviously a strong effect on what you

22 ultimately end up with.
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1 And for the most part, those of us who

2 sit on the NOSB are at the -- if I shall call it

3 that -- the mercy of the quality of those TRs,

4 which will enable us to either make a sensible

5 safe decision or not. Right?

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So, Tracy, one last

7 question.

8 MS. FAVRE: Okay, and I'll wrap this up.

9 Goldie, I would just ask your thoughts on the

10 depth in detail, comparing the TRs you get today

11 compared to the old TAP reviews that were done

12 during your tenure on Board. Can you speak to

13 that?

14 MS. CAUGHLAN: Well actually we had some

15 pretty darn decent ones by the time we waded

16 through at least a couple of the first years. 

17 But the point was, we at least had an

18 understanding of who those reviewers were.

19 We were able to be relative -- we were

20 frequently critical and would sometimes ask for

21 different reviews because they were either

22 incomplete, they showed a lack of understanding
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1 of what we were asking them, or whatever.

2 But we also, I would agree, had much

3 better reviews than we had had, for the most

4 part, than the people that had preceded us. So

5 in other words, it would seem that we ought to be

6 able to be at a place by now where the reviews

7 are done by very, very, well respected people who

8 also have no "dog in the fight", so to speak. 

9 Who have no conflicts of interest or whatever.

10 And judging by the difficulty that there

11 seems to be to get complete reports done, but

12 also the lack of transparency. And I have to

13 stress that; I do think it's important to know

14 who the TR reviewers are. And what their own

15 backgrounds are, because there are apparent

16 conflicts.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, I think we

18 should leave this there. I think we've got that

19 point. It's -- and I think it's also written in

20 the Cornucopia recent comments that we've also

21 received to look at. And hopefully we can

22 address more of that at the public meeting in
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1 Stowe.

2 MS. CAUGHLAN: Thank you for your work.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And our next

4 presenter is Steve Sprinkel, followed by Greg

5 Gunthorp. Steve are you there?

6 (No audible response.)

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Hello, Steve are you

8 there, Steve Sprinkel? I believe also of

9 Cornucopia.

10 DR. TUCKER: Steve is not listed by

11 name, and we don't have a phone number. So I

12 don't know what area code he's coming from. 

13 Steve if you are out there and can hear me on

14 line. You can go ahead and chat in that you're

15 here with the number you're calling from. 

16 Because if there was background noise, I may have

17 muted you.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Steve. 

19 And if you do that, and we catch it, we will add

20 you on after Bob Blue later this afternoon.

21 The next speaker will be Greg Gunthorp,

22 a farmer. Greg, are there? Greg Gunthorp,
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1 listed as a farmer wanting to speak on livestock

2 issues.

3 DR. TUCKER: Again, we don't see a 260

4 number on it, and I don't see his name listed on

5 the system.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, well we'll move

7 to the next person. Same thing, Greg if you're

8 there and we can't hear you, please try to

9 contact us so that we can fit you into the call

10 sequence.

11 So the next speaker will be Jackie

12 DeMinter from MOSA, and she'll be followed by

13 Diane Kull from Applegate. Jackie, are you

14 there?

15 (No audible response.)

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jackie DeMinter from

17 MOSA?

18 MS. DeMINTER: Yes, I am here. Can you

19 hear me?

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, we can. Go

21 right ahead, thank you.

22 MS. DeMINTER: Excellent. Hello, my
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1 name is Jackie DeMinter, I am the Certification

2 Policy Manager at MOSA. We currently certify

3 approximately 1,600 clients, including about 700

4 livestock operations and around 150 handlers.

5 We have extensive experience with

6 reviewing inputs and maintain an internal

7 materials review database, which includes over

8 5,700 brand name products and generic materials.

9 We submitted six letters and one

10 informational chart addressing several topics. 

11 I'll summarize some of our comments here. EPA

12 lists for inerts, for both livestock and crops. 

13 We support the proposed annotation change and the

14 modernization of reference lists. But we have a

15 few comments and questions about the annotations.

16 Regarding the FIFRA 25(b) list, please

17 clarify this list to reference the inert list,

18 not the minimum risk active ingredient list. We

19 assume the active ingredient review would not

20 change.

21 Please also clarify the use of the safer

22 chemical ingredient list, which is sorted in
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1 functional classes. Will certifiers need to

2 verify that a particular material is used in a

3 product according to the functional class it's

4 listed under? This would add another layer to

5 the review of the material. And we can see the

6 challenge with trying to gather what is generally

7 considered proprietary information.

8 We see some materials listed in the

9 safer list under a functional class that are

10 broadly listed on the 25(b) inert list. Please

11 clarify how we are to use the safer ingredient

12 list. And also about the brand name products

13 listed by EPA as safer chemical program.

14 If the active ingredients in a safer

15 choice labeled product checks out, then it seems

16 we can safely assume the inert ingredients are

17 okay too. Please give additional guidance on

18 list use to enable consistent implementation of

19 review criteria.

20 Micronutrients on 601, we support the

21 proposed changes related to micronutrient

22 applications. We agree the diversified
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1 approaches are valid and sensible for determining

2 micronutrient deficiencies.

3 The proposed changes are practical and

4 will allow flexibility for certifiers, and

5 encourage better input from crop consultants. We

6 do have a couple of questions though.

7 What is meant by a professional

8 recommendation? The 2017 Sunset Review for

9 micronutrients refers to a recommendation from a

10 certified professional agronomist. While the

11 micronutrient proposal refers to professional

12 crop advisors and agronomists, we see

13 professional recommendations from a variety of

14 qualified individuals. As a certifier, we're

15 required to ensure that clients are in compliance

16 with the standard. And we already do validate

17 sources of information. So please do not require

18 us to start checking credentials.

19 We also recognize that professionals

20 recommendations are only one of the tools farmers

21 use to determine if micronutrients are needed. 

22 We also ask that the NOSB ensure that the list of
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1 micronutrients referenced is accurate. The 2017

2 Sunset Proposal includes nickel and chromium,

3 which are not on the national list now.

4 Flavors, we support efforts to require

5 organic preference for natural flavors, but we do

6 have some concern about method and consistency of

7 enforcement. We request clear guidance from the 

8 NOP regarding how commercial availability

9 criteria should be enforced in general.

10 We understand that commercial

11 availability decisions must consider an

12 ingredient's form, quality, or quantity. 

13 However, we often find it very difficult to

14 validate a client's argument based on former

15 quality. That challenge is exacerbated with a

16 broad complex class of materials like flavors. 

17 We encourage NOP follow-up action on the 2006

18 NOSB recommendation for establishment of

19 commercial availability criteria.

20 Ancillary substances, and

21 microorganisms, dairy cultures, yeast and pectin,

22 many MOSA-certified operations use these
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1 materials, so over the years we've reviewed many

2 spec sheets. We appreciate the ongoing

3 consideration of ancillary substances in national

4 list materials. This new part of the Sunset

5 Review Process represents due diligence and will

6 provide needed clarification regarding any

7 substances that might be of concern.

8 We generally like the approach of

9 identifying functional classes allowed, and we

10 also appreciate the subcommittee's stating that

11 additional ancillaries that fall within those

12 classes do not need further review. That's

13 better than a prescriptive closed list, but it

14 will require a certifiers to ascertain functional

15 classes, which means more information than is

16 currently supplied on spec sheets.

17 Assuming you've done your due diligence

18 in identifying potential concerns and found none,

19 we see our review work as redundant and

20 burdensome. If there are materials that are of

21 concern, we'd appreciate an approach similar to

22 the listing for flavors where the annotation
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1 eliminates such materials.

2 Steve Walker will be giving additional

3 comments in Vermont, and will address the

4 prevention strategy guidance for excluded

5 methods. We really appreciate your work on these

6 topics and the opportunity to give comments. 

7 Thank you.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank you very

9 much, Jackie. I don't see questions on the

10 screen. Are there any questions?

11 I do know that we have received a lot of

12 written materials. I know because I've been

13 reading them day after day. So I'm sure that at

14 the meeting we will have more questions for the

15 MOSA representative. Thank you.

16 The next speaker is Diane Kull, and

17 she'll be followed by Kevin Engelbert. Jackie,

18 are you there -- or sorry. Diane, are you there?

19 (No audible response.)

20 Diane Kull from Applegate?

21 DR. TUCKER: Okay, Diane we're not. Is

22 she 908?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

2 DR. TUCKER: Okay, I may have muted her

3 if there was background noise. Diane, try again.

4 MS. KULL: Okay, can you hear me?

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, we can hear you,

6 yes.

7 MS. KULL: Okay, so I wanted to comment. 

8 I'm with Applegate, and I wanted to comment on

9 the celery powder, Sunset Review. As Applegate

10 is the leading brand for natural and organic

11 meats, I'm taking this opportunity to express the

12 importance of celery powder.

13 Celery powder is currently an allowed

14 ingredient on the NOP list for use in organic

15 processes, and this ingredient will be

16 discontinued on June 27th, 2017 unless renewed by

17 the NOSB.

18 We understand that the NOSB is reviewing

19 celery powder this month at the fall meeting, and

20 I am to speak today in order to highlight the

21 importance of this ingredient for the continued

22 growth of Applegate's organic meat sector.
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1 I'd first like to acknowledge how much

2 I appreciate the work done by the NOSB, the

3 subcommittees on the 2017 sunset review of so

4 many materials, including the one I speak of

5 today. Organic products make up about 30 percent

6 of Applegate's portfolio, but they play an even

7 more significant part in our growth strategy as

8 they will make up a greater percentage or our

9 total sales in coming years.

10 According to ---- 

11 (Telephonic interference.) 

12 MS. KULL: ---- Applegate is far and away

13 the largest brand of naturally cured organic

14 meats in the regional space, with products

15 utilizing celery powder totally roughly 60

16 percent of our total organic sales.

17 Without the use of celery powder, much

18 of these products and our growth will be severely

19 halted in 2017. As our consumers demand more

20 organic choices, I would like more time to work

21 with industry partners to secure an organic

22 source.
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1 I will speak to some specific questions

2 the committee had in regards to this ingredient. 

3 In regards to commercial availability, we

4 continue to work on the problem of commercial

5 availability for a viable organic alternative.

6 An industry working group of the leading

7 producers of celery powder, including Kerry

8 Ingredients, Diana Foods, and Florida Food

9 Products, as well as our leading competitors in

10 the organic space, Organic Prairie and Coleman

11 Natural, as well as research institutions has

12 been formed to find an alternative. The group

13 has expressed a united message. Additional time

14 is needed to find an acceptable replacement for

15 celery powder.

16 Applegate has been a significant

17 contributor to this effort. As we research

18 alternative vegetables we uncover more

19 challenges. For example, in ensuring a

20 consistent high quality level of nitrates while

21 being able to verify no additional environmental

22 nutrient runoff. We are confident that if given
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1 the time, an organic source will be developed.

2 As far as food safety, celery powder is

3 a tool for introducing cure for food safety into

4 organic products. It has been the vegetable of

5 choice to culture for the conversion of

6 sufficient nitrate to nitrites to provide the

7 necessary pathogen control to assure food safety.

8 Today a suitable organic alternative has not

9 been found. Additional to food safety, organic

10 processors need this tool in order to continue to

11 use as many cuts of the organic livestock as

12 possible.

13 Celery powder continues to allow

14 Applegate to use some cuts of the animal, for

15 example trim and bellies, which would not be

16 possible without an organic curing solution. 

17 This ingredient is critical for whole animal

18 utilization. Human health impact of celery is a

19 source of nitrates. Processed meat is a minor

20 source of nitrate, nitrite in the human body. 

21 Normally the biggest dietary source of nitrite

22 is, in fact, vegetables.
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1 The body also manufactures nitrates for

2 body function. Bacteria in the mouth and gut

3 reduce nitrate to nitrite just as bacterial

4 culture is used to convert the nitrate in celery

5 powder to nitrites. Some research indicates

6 nitrites are actually beneficial to human health.

7 How we want to use the next five years? 

8 As I mentioned previously, an industry working

9 group has been formed and is committed to the

10 goal of finding organically grown vegetable for

11 curing meat naturally. This panel of

12 stakeholders, which will be under the Organic

13 Trade Association, need this additional time to

14 develop and research alternatives for celery

15 powder.

16 In summary, celery powder has been

17 critical ingredient of Applegate ham, bacon, and

18 hotdogs, and is needed to develop color, texture,

19 flavor, functionality, to improve food safety,

20 and to meet the consumer's expectations of a

21 cured meat attribute.

22 There's no sort of suitable organic 
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1 alternative today. Applegate is proud to have

2 been a leader in the naturally cured meat segment

3 for the last 28 years, producing an array of both

4 organic and natural products. And we are working

5 with our industry partners to develop suitable

6 replacements. We strongly urge the NOSB to allow

7 the continued use of celery powder in organic

8 products beyond 2017. Thanks very much for the

9 opportunity to comment on this critically

10 important ingredient.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much

12 Diane. A very clear presentation, and I know

13 that I've also received from Applegate some

14 written comments that most of us I'm sure, have

15 already read. Are there questions from any Board

16 Members? I don't see any coming up on my screen.

17 (No audible response.)

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And I'm not hearing

19 from Harold, I'll call Harold on phone. So thank

20 you, Diane.

21 MS. KULL: Yes.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And we'll move on to
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1 Kevin Engelbert, and he'll be followed by

2 Victoria AlvarezáSaavedra.

3 MR. ENGELBERT: Hello.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Kevin, are you there?

5 MR. ENGELBERT: I hope so.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, I hear you,

7 Kevin.

8 MR. ENGELBERT: Okay. My name is Kevin

9 Engelbert. My family and I operate a certified

10 organic, dairy, beef, and crop farm in upstate

11 New York, a little town called, Nichols. Our

12 primary source of income is the dairy. We ship

13 the majority of our milk to Organic Valley, but

14 we divert a small amount for our own label

15 cheese. We also raise 20 to 30 hogs a year that

16 we sell under our label, and we do a small amount

17 of vegetables, primarily my wife does that. We

18 market at our farm store, at restaurants, and

19 stores within our area.

20 Our farm was the first certified organic

21 dairy in the United States. That doesn't make us

22 better than anybody else, but I mention that fact
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1 because I think it's important for those of you

2 who are listening to know that I've been involved

3 with organic agriculture for a very, very long

4 time. Or I should say a relatively long time.

5 I'm also a farmer NOSB member with my

6 last meeting on the Board taking place five years

7 ago. I remember when I got on, I couldn't

8 imagine how long it would take to fulfill that

9 commitment. But it happened so fast, I can't

10 believe it's been five years since I was on.

11 During my time on the Board, I came to

12 develop a great deal of respect for the

13 Cornucopia Institute, and I'm currently the Vice

14 President of that Board. While I don't agree

15 with all the decisions made or the actions taken,

16 I do believe wholeheartedly in their mission to

17 preserve the integrity of organic agriculture.

18 While I was on the NOSB, I came to trust them as

19 an unbiased, reliable source of information. And

20 I would encourage you Board Members to do the

21 same. The facts that the Cornucopia Institute

22 provide you ahead of your meetings are unbiased,
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1 and without financial motivation.

2 My comments today are general in nature,

3 and I've taken the time to do so because I am

4 very disheartened at the changes that have taken

5 place with the National Organic Program since I

6 left the Standards Board. The writers of OFPA

7 created the National Organic Standards Boards and

8 gave it somewhat statutory authority to protect

9 farmers and consumers from the moneyed interests

10 that they knew would have undue influence on the

11 program. And yet, moneyed interests do seem to

12 be in control.

13 Some examples are: one, the makeup of

14 the National Organic Standards Board and the

15 secrecy with which appointments are made. Two,

16 the National Organic Program trying to take

17 control of, and lead the National Organic

18 Standards Board's meetings. Three, the change in

19 the sunset process with absolutely no public

20 input, which makes the removal of materials on

21 the list, the national list, virtual impossible.

22 Next, only allowing three minutes for
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1 public comment at NOSB meetings, which is

2 obviously meant to discourage public

3 participation. The first day of my meeting on

4 the Board lasted 14 hours. We did whatever was

5 necessary to ensure that anyone who wanted to

6 make public comments, was able to do so, and we

7 encouraged people to do so.

8 Next, the NOSB doesn't determine who

9 will write the technical reviews, or even what

10 materials need them. The authors of the TRs are

11 now secret, so conflicts of interest and

12 competency cannot be evaluated by the public. 

13 The NOP now determines what the NOSB can and

14 cannot work on, instead of just offering

15 suggestions regarding the subjects and materials

16 they would like recommendations for.

17 Next, the attempt by the NOP to do away

18 with the Policy and Procedures Manual. Next, a

19 general lack of respect by the NOP for the long,

20 well established relationships that has existed

21 between them and the NOSB, as well as a lack of

22 transparency in the work done and the decisions
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1 that are made. An elimination, the elimination

2 of the National Organic Standards Board's ability

3 to use annotations to limit the use of materials

4 on the national list.

5 Next, the forming of a Hydroponic Task

6 Force after the National Organic Standards Board

7 made a recommendation that hydroponics does not

8 fit the definition of organic agriculture, and

9 that there should not be hydroponics or

10 aquaponics allowed in organics. And lastly, a

11 lack of enforcement by the National Organic

12 Program of existing rules, and especially the

13 Pasture Rule. When I was on the Board, I was

14 told many times that any recommendation that we

15 made had to be scale neutral, which I

16 wholeheartedly agree with. But the rules are not

17 being enforced on a scale neutral basis. Factory

18 operations produce a larger, and larger

19 percentage of the organic milk supply --

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are you about done,

21 Kevin?

22 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes, I am. I only have
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1 another paragraph.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I'll tell you what,

3 let's just, I know you've had your five minutes. 

4 I'm going to be a bit of a bully here. I'm sure

5 we have some questions that will come in, but I

6 did want to clarify before you take other

7 people's questions that we actually do determine

8 the TRs, and we've been demanding lots of them,

9 and we've been getting them, so just to clarify

10 and perhaps correct your thinking on that. 

11 And also as regards annotations. We

12 have a mechanism for doing annotations, and I

13 thought that that was clear, but I think I'm

14 going to have to explain it again at the

15 beginning of the meeting to everybody again.

16 MR. ENGELBERT: That's great.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We're going to be

18 putting in separate annotations, they're not, so

19 in other words we're voting on Sunset Materials

20 as separate individual materials, and then the

21 annotations, there will be separate annotations

22 that we'll be generating.
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1 I think we have some at this meeting. 

2 My brain is already scrambled, I've been reading

3 so much stuff. But certainly, we'll have a bunch

4 of them in the April meeting. So we do have a

5 handle now on how to effectively do annotations

6 so that there is even better transparency for all

7 the members of the public to know about the

8 annotations, prior to us coming to a public

9 meeting and voting on them.

10 MR. ENGELBERT: Good.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So let me turn over

12 and ask some questions, a few that, Tracy you had

13 a couple of questions or comments you wanted to

14 make to Kevin?

15 MS. FAVRE: Yes, actually. The main one

16 was to clarify the point about the annotation

17 change, so I appreciate that, Jean. Kevin, again

18 thank you for your service on the Board. You

19 like other past members, can really appreciate

20 the buck load that we've had, and the effort that

21 goes into our deliberations and our discussions. 

22 So I appreciate your perspective. I'd like to
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1 hear a little bit more about your thoughts on the

2 access to pasture for livestock.

3 MR. ENGELBERT: In what respect, Tracy? 

4 All I can, you know I have a lot of sources of

5 income. I don't want anybody to assume that the

6 only organization I belong to, or get information

7 from, is Cornucopia. It's not. I belong to

8 quite a few, I've tried to stay connected. And

9 my comments reflect my thoughts from what

10 information I've been able to gather.

11 I'm just, you know the fact that these

12 operations are not providing pasture is extremely

13 detrimental and discouraging. We continue to

14 have organic farms in the New York sell out. I

15 think we've had six sell out in the last two

16 years. And there's still more that are putting

17 their farms up for sell, either because they

18 can't make it financially, or they don't have

19 anyone that wants to take over given the outlook,

20 on the outlook.

21 MS. FAVRE: Well, maybe you'd let me

22 offer this question for clarity: were you
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1 speaking about pasture for poultry, or you were

2 speaking pasture for ruminants?

3 MR. ENGELBERT: I was speaking pasture

4 for poultry, but it also includes outdoor access

5 for poultry. We have a small organic grain

6 business, and we provide grain for small

7 operations that are raising either layers or

8 broilers. And we've had three of them quit in

9 the last two years because they can't compete

10 with the organic eggs and broilers that are on

11 store shelves. And they can't convince people

12 that there's a difference in how they do it, as

13 opposed to what they're buying on the shelf.

14 MS. FAVRE: Right. And along those same

15 lines, I actually agree with you. And I think

16 all of us are eagerly looking forward to the

17 Animal Welfare Standards. Have you had a chance

18 to review those standards, and do you have

19 thoughts on that?

20 MR. ENGELBERT: Well, we started working

21 on them way back when I was on the Board.

22 MS. FAVRE: That's right.
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1 MR. ENGELBERT: And to be honest with

2 you, I haven't looked at them closely since that

3 time. No, I have not.

4 MS. FAVRE: Okay. All right. Thank you

5 very much.

6 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes, thank you.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, thank you Kevin. 

8 We're all pushing the NOP and the USDA to get out

9 the Animal Welfare Standards. It's so critically

10 important. It's very frustrating. Thank you.

11 MR. ENGELBERT: I'd like to say, I'd

12 just like to close with you know the work that

13 you're doing is very important. And it's a

14 matter of public record, not just now, but

15 forever. And once, you know, eventually the

16 history of the NOSB and the NOP is going to be

17 written. And you know the work you're doing is

18 so important, I wanted to take the time to thank

19 you for listening to my comments. And

20 specifically a thank you to the NOSB members. I

21 know first-hand how much time you spend on NOSB

22 work, and I'm very appreciative of it.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Kevin. We

2 appreciate that. Mostly, we get a lot of grief,

3 so it's nice to understand what we're doing.

4 MR. ENGELBERT: I've been there and done

5 that many times. And I often thought if I got

6 grief from every side, we were probably pretty

7 close to what needed to be done.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, exactly. I

9 agree. All right, thanks Kevin. Our next

10 speaker, Victoria AlvarezáSaavedra, and she'll be

11 followed by Jane Parker. Victoria, are you

12 there?

13 MS. SAAVEDRA: Yes, can you hear me?

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

15 MS. SAAVEDRA: Okay, excellent, thank

16 you. I'm speaking on behalf of FEMA, the Flavor

17 Extract Manufacturers Association of the United

18 States. We want to appreciate the opportunity to

19 comment. And I also want to thank the NOSB for

20 the hard work ensuring the integrity of organic

21 products. Again, I'm talking on behalf of FEMA

22 the Flavor Extract Manufacturers Association.
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1 And I work for a flavor company, so I

2 would like to also give you some information on

3 that. Again, my name is Victoria Alvarez

4 Saavedra. I'm the leader for the FEMA Organic

5 Task Force. I'm Vice Chair for the FEMA Flavor

6 Labeling Committee, I'm also Vice Chair for the

7 IOFI RAAC. IOFI is the International Organization

8 of the Flavor Industry, and RAAC is the

9 Regulatory and Advocacy Committee.

10 I'm Director of Regulatory Affairs for

11 Virginia Dare and I've been working for Virginia

12 Dare for the last 16 years. Virginia Dare is a

13 manufacturer of organic certified vanilla extract

14 and some other flavors, but mostly extract. On

15 behalf of FEMA, I would like to say that FEMA has

16 been working in collaboration with the OTA and

17 certifiers for many years to develop a Natural

18 Flavor Questionnaire to help ensure the integrity

19 of the organic program.

20 FEMA was founded in 1909 and is based in

21 Washington D.C. FEMA members include not only

22 flavor manufacturers but flavor users, food
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1 companies, flavor ingredient suppliers, and other

2 who are interested in ensuring the supply of

3 flavoring materials. FEMA members manufacture

4 and market more than 95 percent of all flavor

5 sold in the United States and creates flavor for

6 use in a wide variety of foods and beverages.

7 FEMA has a long standing history of

8 working with regulatory authorities. FEMA

9 members create flavors for you to have a wide

10 variety of foods and beverage products, including

11 both certified under the NOP regulations. FEMA

12 supports the continued usage of non-synthetic

13 flavors in 205.605(a) on the national list. Also

14 FEMA would like to state that we generally

15 support the NOSB handling subcommittee

16 recommendation, annotation change for flavors on

17 205.605(a). 

18 And also, we'd like to highlight the

19 following very important point: the supply of

20 organic flavors is not sufficient to warrant the

21 sunset of non-synthetic flavors from 205.605(a). 

22 Although there has been an increase in the number
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1 of organic flavors that have been developed,

2 organic flavors are not available in sufficient

3 quantities, quality, and form to satisfy current

4 demands.

5 Non-synthetic flavors should remain on

6 205.605(a) of the national list, but could be

7 subject to commercial availability if the organic

8 flavor is available in sufficient quantity,

9 quality, and form. Because there is insufficient

10 availability of organic flavors to satisfy

11 current demands, removing non-synthetic flavors

12 as a category from 205.605(a) of the national

13 list will create lasting and significant market

14 disruption in the processed organic food sector.

15 However, when organic flavor is

16 commercially available in sufficient quantity,

17 quality and form to satisfactorily function in

18 the finished organic product applications that

19 would be required by the NOSB handling

20 subcommittee recommended annotation change, that

21 organic flavor should be used. Non-synthetic

22 flavors must remain on 205.605(a) of the national
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1 list even if flavors are subject to commercial

2 availability.

3 Again, we would like to say there is

4 insufficient availability of organic flavors to

5 satisfy current demands. And the removal of non6 synthetic flavors as a category from 205.605(a)

7 of the national list would create significant

8 market disturbances because so many processed

9 organic products utilize non-synthetic flavors

10 for which there is no organic substitute.

11 Additionally, removing non-synthetic flavors from

12 the national list puts into jeopardy the many

13 organic products already on the market that

14 currently utilize non-synthetic flavors.

15 The NOSB has at least on two other

16 occasions retained a category listing on

17 205.605(a) while adding an annotation. Any

18 regulatory action should both encourage further

19 organic development in the flavor categories, and

20 also maintain the integrity and supply of

21 processed organic food products that utilize non22 synthetic flavors., but cannot ignore its issues
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1 of supply, quality, or functionality to utilize

2 current available organic flavors.

3 Flavors are essential to the continued

4 success of the processed organic food sector. 

5 Processed organic food production has enjoyed

6 market growth over the last several years. 

7 Processed organic food consumers expect that both 

8 organic food products meet the federal standards

9 and also meet their taste and sensory

10 expectations. Flavors help ensure that the

11 consumers are delighted by the organic foods that

12 they consume.

13 FEMA appreciates the opportunity to

14 comment on the hard work of the NOSB. FEMA urges

15 your consideration on this important matter as

16 you finalize the non-synthetic flavor Sunset

17 Review and evaluate the NOSB handling

18 subcommittee recommendations to change the flavor

19 annotations. Again thank you for this

20 opportunity to comment and we would like to make

21 sure that we're available if you have any

22 comments or need additional assistance. Thank
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1 you again.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much,

3 Victoria. I'm not seeing any questions coming up

4 from the NOSB members, and it's been certainly --

5 (Telephonic interference.) 

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: -- large body of

7 material from the flavor industry, including some

8 from your own company. So we have I think a

9 large amount of very useful information to help

10 guide our voting on this subject. It's complex. 

11 Okay, thank you, Victoria. I'd now like to move

12 on to Jane Parker to speak, and she'll be

13 followed by Aishwarya Bala -- it's a difficult

14 name for Jean, Aishwarya Balasubramanian. So

15 Jane, are you there?

16 (No audible response.)

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jane Parker from

18 Gourmet Garden?

19 DR. TUCKER: Jane, I don't know the area

20 that Jane is calling from. It's an international

21 number so I'm sure exactly what number off the

22 list, but Jane, are you out there?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Brian says she's

2 Australia.

3 (Telephonic interference.)

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: -- if we can't make

5 contact with Jane, we could move on to Aishwarya?

6 DR. TUCKER: Jane, if you're on, you can

7 go to the site and test us on the chat button,

8 and then I'll know what number you're calling

9 from. If you let me know what your number is. 

10 Can you hear us?

11 (No audible response.)

12 DR. TUCKER: Touch your chat menu on the

13 bottom left of your screen, if you can hear me.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, Aishwarya

15 are you there?

16 MS. BALASUBRAMANIAN: Yes, can you hear

17 me?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, we can hear you,

19 Aishwarya would you please state which company

20 you're from and present your comments. Thank

21 you.

22 MS. BALASUBRAMANIAN: I thank for, I
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1 know my name is quite a feat. Good afternoon

2 all. First I would like the Board and everyone

3 present today for your time and the opportunity

4 to speak to you all. During our last webinar

5 here, some of you might have heard, West

6 Mathison, son of Kyle Mathison, who are organic

7 apple growers, mention the need for 1-MCP for

8 organic apples. And here is just that we stand

9 on that.

10 We at AgroFresh have collaborated for

11 over 15 years with apple growers globally to help

12 maintain post-harvest quality of apples, during

13 storage, and distribution. Our product,

14 SmartFresh is simply 1-MCP gas trapped in natural

15 sugars. Like the Mathisons, we meet a lot of

16 organic growers who understand the need for

17 SmartFresh in organic apples. And I wanted to

18 give an introduction about SmartFresh, it's

19 safety and benefits in this webinar.

20 So let me start with: what is

21 SmartFresh? As I mentioned SmartFresh is 1-MCP

22 gas molecule, stabilized in natural sugars. It
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1 is used in airtight rooms, where it's similar to

2 ethylene gas used on organic bananas in banana

3 rooms. So the apples are first picked at a good

4 color and good maturity, and then is taken to

5 storage rooms where SmartFresh is mixed with

6 plain water in the closed rooms to help get 1-MCP

7 out.

8 Next, what does SmartFresh do? So

9 before we get into that, I need to let you on to

10 the basics as to what ethylene does for apples?.

11 Ethylene is a natural plant hormone, as many of

12 you know. And it's produced internally in

13 apples. So it is responsible for all the great

14 things such as color, flavor development.

15 But it is also responsible for aging the

16 fruit, and it causes the fruit to soften, become

17 mealy and rot. So for ethylene to work in

18 apples, it needs specific sites, what we call the

19 ethylene receptor sites. So ethylene goes and

20 binds to these sites and triggers production of

21 more and more ethylene.

22 So SmartFresh basically makes fewer of
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1 these sites available for ethylene to bind, and

2 this slows down the production of more ethylene. 

3 So it takes a longer time for apples to soften

4 and rot. The use of SmartFresh we have seen as

5 much as doubles the storage life, and since it

6 takes longer for the fruit to age, it makes

7 fresh, crisp, local apples available for

8 consumption for a longer period.

9 SmartFresh is safe. It is very

10 effective at very low levels. So in apples, if

11 you take a thousand cubic foot room, that has

12 about 7500 kilograms of apples, and we recommend

13 a level of 59.4 milligrams of 1-MCP. So when

14 used as recommended, it does not leave any

15 residue on the fruit, and it gets metabolized

16 just like ethylene does.

17 If you can Google, 1-MCP is one of the

18 most researched and well documented compounds,

19 globally, due to its non-toxic and non-persistent

20 effect in slowing down ethylene activity.

21 How are organic apples stored now? They

22 are stored and controlled in atmospheric storage. 
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1 But the storage life date is relatively short and

2 once they are through, they are taken out of

3 storage, there is a discernible quality loss. 

4 And because the fruit tends to ripen faster and

5 it leads to softer fruit which is not ideal for

6 consumption.

7 So the wastage is not just the wastage

8 of fruit that is unavailable for us to eat, but

9 also wasting the resources used for production,

10 storage, and transit. So SmartFresh we believe

11 could help prevent this waste, and also give

12 organic growers the peace of mind that their

13 fruit will provide consumers with satisfying

14 experience long into marketing season.

15 The other thing, CA, it may not be

16 feasible for small farmers supplying local

17 markets to use CA. We worked with small farmers,

18 for example we have one, a low spray,

19 environmentally friendly orchard, and SmartFresh

20 is used on their eco apples. They consider it a

21 great tool to help provide consistent quality

22 apples for consumers, and help them keep local
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1 apples in market longer.

2 So we continue to hear from organic

3 growers and they clearly recognize the benefits

4 that SmartFresh can bring. I want to conclude by

5 saying, there's no greener technology available

6 today to improve the quality of their fruit they

7 use that make local apples available longer in

8 the market place. I want to thank you again for

9 this opportunity to introduce my comments. Thank

10 you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much,

12 Aishwarya. Are there specific questions from the

13 Board? I'm sort of hoping that Harold, you could

14 help us with a question here from your

15 perspective as an apple grower.

16 MR. AUSTIN: Yes, ma'am. I am ready.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay.

18 MR. AUSTIN: Aishwarya, thank you for

19 your presentation. Two points of question I

20 guess. One would be, with the application of the

21 MCP-1, exactly what would be the benefit of the

22 grower? I mean we pick the apples, we put them
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1 into the cold room. Could you elaborate just a

2 little bit what would that do for the storage

3 ability and the quality of the fruit coming out

4 the other side?

5 MS. BALASUBRAMANIAN: So thanks, Harold,

6 and you can call me Ash. It helps, I guess. So

7 does 1-MCP, or -- 1-MCP in SmartFresh basically

8 increases the window of storage. And again, as

9 much as double the window of storage. What it

10 does is once you put your apples in storage and

11 when they come out there are a lot of issues that

12 can happen.

13 Like, once the fruit comes out, it can

14 soften very fast. The other thing is they can

15 also develop storage scald, which is the browning

16 of the skin. There are a lot of things that can,

17 so an organic grower puts the apples inside a

18 room, storage room and when it comes out after

19 six months say, he wouldn't know what is the

20 quality of the apples.

21 So SmartFresh over 15 years, we have

22 helped apple growers protect the quality and when
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1 the fruit comes out it is still crisp and fresh

2 to eat. And it undergoes the natural softening

3 process, like any other apples, but it takes a

4 slightly slower than the normal process.

5 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you, so we use it on

6 a lot of our conventional packed and stored

7 apples. Will you be coming forward with a

8 petition to add MCP-1 on the national list for

9 the handling as a material? Or is this going to

10 be a product that going to be reviewed, that's

11 going to go through one of the certifiers?

12 MS. BALASUBRAMANIAN: We are planning to

13 get a petition in as soon as possible.

14 MR. AUSTIN: Okay, and this will be

15 strictly for the warehouse use, or would there be 

16 any indication that this would be also looked at

17 as field juice as well?

18 MS. BALASUBRAMANIAN: We are currently

19 looking into the warehouse use for the storage,

20 post-harvest handling. But we would be also

21 think about putting about a pre-harvest.

22 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. Thank you. It's a
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1 wonderful tool if we can get it.

2 MS. BALASUBRAMANIAN: Thank you.

3 MR. AUSTIN: Thanks, Jean.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Ash. That

5 was very interesting comments and for your

6 questions, Harold. So now we come to I think,

7 Bob Blue. You are out there now. And our time's

8 gone but --

9 MS. ARSENAULT: Jean, can you hear me

10 okay? We have a question from Zea, who can't --

11 (Telephonic interference.) 

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, you have a

13 question for Ash?

14 DR. TUCKER: Hello.

15 MS. BALASUBRAMANIAN: I'm here.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Aishwarya, are you

17 speaking?

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello.

19 MS. SWAFFAR: So can you hear me?

20 DR. TUCKER: Yes, we can hear you, Zea,

21 go ahead.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Well my question was the
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1 was the same as what Harold ended up asking which

2 is, petition is usually the way to approach this

3 first. And you didn't say whether it was a

4 synthetic gas or not, but I suspect it is. And

5 you really need to petition.

6 MS. BALASUBRAMANIAN: Thank you, Zea. 

7 Yes. We are submitting it shortly. Thank you.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay. That's all, thanks.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Zea. The

10 next speaker is Bob Blue. Bob, are you there?

11 MR. BLUE: Yes, I'm here. Can you hear

12 me?

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, we can, clearly.

14 MR. BLUE: Great. So my name is Bob

15 Blue. I'm Director of Wine Making at Fetzer

16 Vineyards. I've been with Fetzer for 27 years. 

17 I'm the founding wine maker of our made with

18 organic wine, which started as a Fetzer wine in

19 1990. And then in 1994 we launched Bonterra as

20 our flagship organic brand.

21 And our growth has been steady, and we

22 started modestly. We're at 400,000 cases now. 
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1 The wine's in 35 countries with nice accolades,

2 I'd like to think. And we work with about 35

3 organic growers, and we have about 950 of our own

4 acres. So to just give you a sense of our scope.

5 We have submitted written comments for ascorbic

6 acid, carbon dioxide, potassium acid tartrate,

7 which is cream of tartar, ozone, and sulfur

8 dioxide. All of these inputs are important and

9 we want them to continue to be available for wine

10 made under the NOP rules.

11 Of these, the most important input is

12 SO2. Sulfur dioxide, you know, has a long

13 history use, first noted in the Roman times, but

14 more importantly in the early 19th century. It's

15 naturally occurring in fermentation, whenever you

16 have a fermentation, you get at least usually ten

17 parts per million estimate, but up to 30 parts

18 occurs naturally.

19 For us in wine making, we use it in a

20 couple of different points in time. It's very

21 important in the beginning, when we first receive

22 the grapes. And we've pressed, we're starting
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1 the fermentation process. We add a little bit of

2 sulfur dioxides as an antiseptic. It's very

3 effective in killing bacteria which compete for

4 resources with the yeast, and it inhibits some of

5 the sort of weak yeast that come in with the

6 grapes.

7 It also neutralizes oxidative enzymes. 

8 So in the case of something like Sauvignon Blanc,

9 where you want the wine to be very fresh, and you

10 want to preserve some of the green qualities of

11 the fruit, the sulfur dioxide actually inhibits

12 the browning enzyme and keeps the juice very

13 fresh. And then you get, it reveals that quality

14 of the Sauvignon at the end.

15 After fermentation, after fermentations

16 are complete, whether it's a yeast fermentation

17 and in the case of red, after a natural

18 malolactic fermentation, we add another small

19 amount of sulfur dioxide to stabilize the wine. 

20 And then prior to bottling, in the process of

21 bottling, there's always an intake of oxygen, and

22 so adding an addition right at the very end, as
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1 an antioxidant, sulfur dioxide grabs oxygen and

2 protects the wine from the oxygen molecules. And

3 then the wine can just age naturally in the

4 bottle.

5 So for us there's really just no

6 alternative to SO2. You know, over the history

7 of wine making, we've worked on sanitation and

8 temperature control, carbon dioxides to blanket

9 wines, and the use of ozones, and those sorts of

10 things to reduce the amount. And in the made

11 with category, you know we're limited to 100

12 parts per million. The national, the U.S.

13 standard is 350 parts per million and so we're

14 well under that. And I think it's very

15 responsible use and very important to the overall

16 quality of the wine.

17 Without it, it makes it difficult to use

18 barrels. So you know, when we extract wine from

19 barrels, they want to spoil very quickly and so

20 sulfur dioxide gas is used to keep the bacteria

21 load down until we can fill the barrels again. 

22 And then in the aging process in the barrel,
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1 that's an area where you can have spoilage very

2 easily, and in the case of sort of fresh wine,

3 making really fresh wine, especially white wines,

4 the antioxidant property is key to quality.

5 So without it, it's going to really have

6 an impact on the quality of our products, the

7 longevity of our product, which will impact us

8 economically. And all of our growers, everyone

9 will be impacted. So in closing, we ask the NOSB

10 to allow the continued use of these wine making

11 materials, especially sulfur dioxide, to ensure

12 that we can continue to produce quality wines.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you

14 very much, Bob. I know that you've also

15 submitted written comments which I've read. So

16 I feel like you've provided us with a lot of very

17 useful information. And I'm looking to see if

18 anyone has any questions out there on the

19 computer. I don't see any, or on my email

20 calling in, so I don't see any questions but your

21 presentation is very clear and helpful. Thank

22 you.
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1 MR. BLUE: Thank you.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Let's now turn and

3 see who that's left out there that would like to

4 talk, that did not come in when we called them. 

5 I'll work from the top down. Is Robert Larose

6 anywhere out there?

7 (No audible response.)

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: What about Steve

9 Sprinkel?

10 (No audible response.) 

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: If you're talking,

12 you're on mute and we can't hear you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Greg Gunthorp?

14 (No audible response.)

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And lastly, Jane

16 Parker?

17 DR. TUCKER: Jean, Greg is on the line,

18 but maybe he's muted, and --

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Greg, Greg Gunthorp

20 is on the line, okay. Greg, would you like to

21 say something?

22 DR. TUCKER: He got on, but maybe he
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1 dropped off again, but I don't have a 267 number

2 anymore. He was on for a little bit, but then he

3 dropped out.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Thank you. And

5 then Jane Parker from Australia?

6 (No audible response.)

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jane are you out

8 there anywhere?

9 DR. TUCKER: We decided it's 3 o'clock

10 in the morning in Australia, and she probably

11 decided not to join us.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, I can imagine. 

13 Oh, that's dedication. Hopefully she sent in

14 comments in writing, and then we be sure to see

15 them. Actually I believe they did. I know I've

16 read a lot on sodium lactate and potassium

17 lactate which she was going to talk on. So, that

18 in my reading here, correct me if I'm wrong here,

19 Jenny. Seems like we've got through everybody

20 that wanted to speak on this call.

21 DR. TUCKER: I've now unmuted everybody

22 that doesn't have a name. If you are one of the
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1 people that Jean just called, you had signed up

2 for public comment in advance, but did not get a

3 chance to talk, please speak up now. We'll count

4 to five. Okay, I don't think anybody wants to

5 talk.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I don't think so,

7 okay, we haven't missed anybody. That's good

8 because we're trying to do this right. So in

9 wrapping up this afternoon, I'd just like to

10 thank all of you enormously for being on this

11 call for this length of time. We still have 36

12 people left on the web and 58 on audio. So we've

13 had a really good turnout for this, as we did for

14 the first webinar.

15 I'd like to comment on Kevin Engelbert's

16 statement that, how he didn't like to have just

17 three minutes at the face-to-face meeting, and I

18 agree that's tough. And we might be able to do

19 four in April when we don't have all the Sunset

20 materials to deal with, like we have this fall.

21 But we are trying to avoid those 14 hour

22 days that they used to do on the NOSB that Kevin
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1 mentioned. We're trying to make sure that we can

2 expand the ability for people throughout all of

3 the NOP certifying world, and as you see we're

4 getting calls from overseas, which is fabulous.

5 And by putting on these comment, public

6 comment webinars at this point in the public

7 comment sequence that we have to deal with, and

8 I think it's going to be just great. Because it

9 means that we won't have to have 14 hour days,

10 and we hopefully can expand the time to four

11 minutes, as I say, in the Spring for the public

12 speakers. And generally we find four minutes is

13 pretty darn good.

14 And I just want to say how pleased I am

15 at how this has gone. And I hope you did too,

16 and look forward to seeing those of you who can

17 come, come to glorious Vermont. And I'll try to

18 keep the snow away from the town where you are,

19 but let it get to the mountains. And thank you

20 very much. I'll turn it back to Paul in the 

21 office, at this time, Paul.

22 DR. LEWIS: Great. Thank you again, and
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1 thank you for your leadership serving as Chair

2 for the Board, and for really moving us forward

3 to again, the successful webinar that we've had. 

4 And again I want to thank all the Board Members

5 for being part of the call for several hours

6 today. And looking forward to meeting all of you

7 face-to-face next week as we continue our NOSB

8 meeting in Vermont. Thank you.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Are we done,

10 Jenny?

11 DR. TUCKER: I think we're done. 

12 (Telephonic interference.)

13 DR. TUCKER: And who's that speaking?

14 MS. PARKER: Jane Parker.

15 DR. TUCKER: Hi, hello. Jane, it's

16 Jane. Jean, are you still on?

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I'm still on Jenny. 

18 Jane, I'm Chair of the NOSB. If you have

19 comments that would be great.

20 MS. PARKER: Okay, thank you very much. 

21 It's Jane Parker from Gourmet Gardens --

22 (Telephonic interference.) 
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1 MS. PARKER: -- sodium lactate. Thank

2 you for giving me the opportunity to talk today.

3 (Telephonic interference.) 

4 MS. PARKER: -- sensitive to

5 degradation. And therefore it's difficult to

6 maintain their integrity even in a ---- 

7 (Telephonic interference.) 

8 MS. PARKER: ---- and traditionally these

9 herbs have been preserved by drying, cooking,

10 freezing. And although these methods worked well

11 for fruits and vegetables, they result in

12 degradation of the oils in herbs and spices.

13 Inherent with spices, because of their

14 nature and depending on how they're grown, the

15 traditional methods of preservation are at high

16 risk of contamination. The contamination listed

17 is, to an extent, mitigated by the fact that

18 they're used is such small amounts. As a current

19 example we have the contamination issue --

20 (Telephonic interference.)

21 MS. PARKER: -- cyclospora, which we've

22 seen over a thousand cases in three years. And
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1 what we use on the herbs and spices is actually

2 heirloom technology, which combines several

3 preparation methods. And not from the

4 preservatives, but it's growing the plants

5 correctly for the environment, harvesting it in

6 the correct season and correct time of day,

7 storing at the correct temperature, washing and

8 sanitizing.

9 And while ---- 

10 (Telephonic interference.) 

11 MS. PARKER: ---- enough to do all these

12 things, and combine them, and that's where sodium

13 lactate comes in. It's got a really diverse

14 functionality which provides additional hurdles

15 for maintaining safety and the integrity of the

16 food.

17 If you're having spice bases infused to

18 maintain product safety, integrity by functioning

19 within a single product as an microbial agent and

20 anti-pathogen, which includes the function of

21 acidity control, buffering and water activity

22 control throughout the whole shelf life of the
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1 product.

2 As an acidity control agents, the

3 product PH must remain within a critical range. 

4 At high PH, microbes can pose food safety and

5 quality issues, such as several documented cases

6 of botulism in garlic stored in oil due to

7 uncontrolled PH levels. At low PH certain

8 compounds such as chlorophyll become unstable, 

9 resulting in a loss of integrity.

10 Another buffer, because the natural PH

11 in raw herb and spice vary by day, by grower et

12 cetera, a buffer prevents this PH fluctuating

13 within the natural variability and keeps the PH

14 of the final product within the safety region. 

15 And to achieve a buffer requires an organic acid

16 and organic salt such as sodium lactate.

17 And as a microbial, the lactic acid

18 portion of sodium lactate is part of its

19 important antimicrobial function. And lactic

20 acid is particularly known for its effectiveness

21 in controlling the growth of bacteria such as

22 Listeria. But with GG paste we need to add
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1 lactic acid in the base form of the lactate

2 following the acid form.

3 The acid form provides the necessary

4 antimicrobial properties but it does not provide

5 the buffer that I talked about and the water

6 control activity, its water fighting properties.

7 Maintenance of the water activities of the

8 product within the desired range is critical for

9 the control of undesirable microbes.

10 And sodium lactate imparts many

11 different functional attributes in the product,

12 and we understand there is no other single

13 ingredient or even combination of ingredients

14 that can take its place and effectively control 

15 (Telephonic interference.) 

16 MS. PARKER: -- finally, over ten years

17 of research has been spent on examining replacing

18 sodium lactate with other ingredients. And the

19 result --

20 (Telephonic interference.) 

21 MS. PARKER: ---- we believe that

22 putting sodium lactate in the national list will
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1 give organic growers a critical antimicrobial

2 ingredient, pathogen inhibitor, to protect

3 consumers from food borne illness such as

4 listeria and botulism, contamination that

5 traditional preservatives such as sugar, salt,

6 and smoke aren't able to prevent. We also

7 believe that, as shown by our current research

8 that sodium lactate application is outside the --

9 -- 

10 (Telephonic interference.) 

11 MS. PARKER: ---- and sincerely request

12 that this be considered. Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much,

14 Jane. Now isn't it 3 o'clock in the morning in

15 Australia?

16 MS. PARKER: No, it's 5:20, no it's just

17 after 5:00.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: 5:00 a.m.?

19 MS. PARKER: After 5 o'clock, yes.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, well that's not

21 so bad. You're a farmer, you're probably up by

22 now, that's good.
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1 MS. PARKER: Yes, I'm happy to say, it's

2 light. It's bright, so it's okay.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We have received

4 quite a lot of comment on sodium and potassium

5 lactate, and your presentation here today was

6 very clear and very helpful. And checking to see

7 if there are any questions from our NOSB Board

8 Members of whom are listening also on line. Are

9 there any questions --

10 MR. AUSTIN: Can I speak?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

12 MR. AUSTIN: This is Harold.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold Austin is

14 asking you a question, Jane.

15 MS. PARKER: Okay.

16 MR. AUSTIN: Jane, thank you. Thanks

17 for your presentation and the written comments

18 that you submitted. Just for clarification. You

19 tried, I believe you just mentioned, that you've

20 tried lactic acid and it does not provide the

21 functionality that you need for your process. 

22 Was that correct?
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1 MS. PARKER: Yes. We tried to get away

2 from sodium lactate, we tried several times and

3 tried several formulations, and tried to get away

4 from sodium lactate. And just found that lactic

5 acid on its own doesn't work. And it gives some

6 cover, but the shelf, no it doesn't give a lot of

7 cover because we're required the lactate part of

8 it, which is some, you know to do the science of

9 it. To the base part, is what does better

10 control to act as a PH buffer.

11 MR. AUSTIN: Okay, thank you.

12 MS. PARKER: The lactic acid, does

13 antimicrobial on its own, but is doesn't act as

14 a PH buffer. When the PH moves up and down

15 that's when you get a food borne illness issue.

16 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. Thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank you very

18 much, Jane. And so I'm a Northumbrian, so I'm

19 just on the other side of the border, so to

20 speak. Except I'm in Vermont and there you are,

21 a Scotswoman in Australia. So between us we

22 should resolve all the problems that we have in
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1 front of us.

2 MS. PARKER: That sounds really good, 

3 I would appreciate that.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, great. 

5 Thank you very much for your comments. I believe

6 there are no further persons that wish to comment

7 at this time. Is that correct?

8 DR. TUCKER: We believe that is true. 

9 Last call for anyone signed up in advance that

10 has not spoken yet?

11 (No audible response.)

12 DR. TUCKER: I think we are good.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, I think we're

14 good. So I'll wish you all a good afternoon and

15 see you next week in Vermont if you're coming. 

16 Thank you.

17 DR. TUCKER: Thank you.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Bye.

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

20 went off the record at 3:24 p.m.)

21

22
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A

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68:6 75:12 85:19 86:6

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adopted 16:3 28:1

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26:16 48:21 87:20

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99:2 117:6
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Bondera 1:16 10:18

Bonterra 127:19

book 49:9

border 143:19

borne 141:3 143:15

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96:13 127:20

Brian 118:1

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123:4

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129:12

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139:15 140:5 143:10

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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 3:1

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6:12 10:10 11:7,8

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88:9 100:19 120:18

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31:10 34:3,5,6

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82:2,6,9 83:21 85:14

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23:19 24:20 25:2,12

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61:1,20 62:3,5 63:10

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76:12 77:8,11,19

78:18 79:4 81:20 82:3

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87:7,18 88:6,16,20

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105:20 106:2,17

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111:14 112:5,6 117:2

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90:6 92:15

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changes 15:19 66:12

71:6 72:11,21,22

73:11,21,21 90:21

91:3 103:4

changing 23:4 60:10

Chapman 1:17 23:15

23:16,18,20,22 24:19

24:22 25:3

characterize 16:13

chart 89:10

chat 5:21 87:14 118:7

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checking 91:18 142:6

checks 90:15

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chemical 36:22 45:3

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chemicals 49:16 50:18

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46:9,10,11,13

chlorine 38:3

chlorophyll 139:8

choice 36:20 90:15

98:5

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choose 50:5

chose 57:17 58:14

chosen 30:5

chromium 92:2

circumstances 40:10

cited 66:1

Citizen 2:11,12,14,15

citrus 14:9,13,15,19

claims 20:12

clarification 93:6

142:18

clarify 75:3,13,21 89:17

89:21 90:11 106:6,9

107:16

clarifying 75:4

clarity 71:19 83:9

108:22

class 90:3,9 92:16

classes 90:1 93:9,12,15

classic 20:18 29:9

clean 76:18

clear 27:21 92:7 100:12

106:13 131:21 142:6

cleared 27:21

clearly 11:13 76:1

123:3 127:13

clears 28:11

client's 92:14

clients 89:3 91:15

Clif 1:17

close 110:12 111:7

closed 93:13 120:6

closely 110:2

closer 38:19

closest 31:22 32:14
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closing 4:14,21 31:18

131:9

Coalition 2:17 36:3

coccidiosis 30:18

code 5:8 25:3 55:5

87:12

cold 124:1

Colehour 1:16 10:17

Coleman 97:10

collaborate 12:1

collaborated 119:10

collaborating 13:17

collaboration 15:3 72:4

74:14 83:1 112:16

collapse 20:14

colleagues 7:2

College 1:22

color 99:18 120:4,14

colors 10:4

combination 52:18

140:13

combinations 14:14

combine 138:12

combines 138:2

come 10:5 11:10 31:22

32:14 61:15 106:5

124:11 126:6 129:5

132:4 135:17,17

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24:12 33:13 41:1,5

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comment 1:5 5:15

22:21 23:14 56:3

57:14 58:5,14 63:3

71:7 78:22 82:18

83:12 95:7,8 100:9

104:1 111:19 116:14

116:20 134:2,15

135:5,6,7 142:4 144:6

commented 29:4 58:11

COMMENTERS 2:9

commenting 56:10

comments 3:6,12,16,20

4:1,5,8 6:20 11:19

17:13 18:10 21:18

25:13 27:9 33:4 34:5

35:10 41:11 42:1,10

46:20 56:7,8 57:14

60:20 61:18 62:10

63:1 64:11 67:19,20

68:1,4 69:12 71:2

74:12,14 76:3,8,22

82:8,15 84:8 86:20

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100:14 103:2 104:6

107:13 108:9 110:19

116:22 118:20 123:9

126:5 128:5 131:15

133:14 136:19 142:17

144:5

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51:15 92:8,10,19 97:3

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commercially 114:16

Commission 46:11

commit 43:17

commitment 102:9

committed 99:9

committee 6:19 38:6

69:8,9 72:8,17 75:6,7

97:2 112:6,9

committees 69:6

common 44:3

community 53:6 65:12

66:5 70:12 75:16

companies 69:18 113:1

company 1:14,17 18:7

21:6 49:22 52:19

112:1 117:8 118:19

compared 85:11

comparing 85:10

comparison 76:20

compensation 69:3

compete 109:9 129:3

competency 104:12

competes 30:15

competitive 38:10

competitors 97:9

complaint 8:1

complaints 7:19,21

complete 86:11 129:16

completed 17:6

completely 44:16 78:16

complex 49:20 92:16

117:10

compliance 8:4 69:6

91:15

compliant 14:19

complicated 20:9

component 59:11

components 15:5,6

57:6

compost 52:12

compounds 121:18

139:8

compromise 67:9

compromised 66:11

compulsion 42:7

computer 11:4 23:13

63:19 76:7 131:19

concentrated 21:3,7,9

concentrates 21:4

Concentrating 21:4

concentration 21:16

27:14,16,18,20

concept 71:17

conception 45:15

concern 19:1 39:9 73:9

73:13 79:9 80:1 92:6

93:7,21

concerned 61:6 84:13

concerns 21:1 49:18

56:17 66:6 80:15

82:21 83:18 93:18

conclude 123:4

condition 65:8

conditions 37:20

conduct 6:15 8:5 16:10

25:4

conducted 66:2

confident 97:22

confinement 40:9,18

confirm 17:8

conflict 71:15

conflicts 84:20 86:9,16

104:11

confusion 80:17

congressional 38:5

connected 108:8

conscious 22:14

consensus 45:11

consequences 23:9

conservation 69:16,20

69:22

consider 27:4 38:8 42:7

92:11 122:20

consideration 93:3

116:15

considered 39:1 90:7

141:12

consistency 56:18 92:6

consistent 8:20 53:16

90:18 97:20 122:21

constraints 83:7

consult 74:17

Consultant 1:13,14

consultants 91:5

consulting 69:21

consume 116:12

consumer 80:6,11

consumer's 99:20

consumers 8:19 18:21

22:14 44:15 49:13

71:21 73:15 80:15

81:7 84:12 96:19

103:9 116:7,11

122:13,22 141:3

consumes 43:8

consumption 20:17

121:8 122:6

contact 88:9 118:5

contain 25:14 37:16

45:22

containers 51:17 52:3,9

contains 21:14 37:11

contaminant 21:10

contaminants 18:14

20:16,20 21:1,5

contamination 21:22

137:16,16,19 141:4

contentious 83:3

continue 36:7 48:13,14

97:4 98:10 108:13

123:2 128:9 131:12

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100:7 113:12 116:3

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continues 80:14 98:13

continuing 7:7 80:15

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contributor 42:13 97:17

control 14:1,2,9 45:2

51:19 98:7 103:12,17

130:8 138:21,22

139:2 140:6,9,14

143:10

controlled 31:1,2 45:7

50:15 121:22

controlling 14:13 64:17

70:15 139:21

controls 45:8

conventional 36:21

125:6

conversion 22:12 98:5

convert 99:4

converted 22:10

convince 109:11

cooking 137:9

cooperative 80:7,12

coordinated 58:18

coordinating 13:6

copies 14:5 33:7

copper 59:5

Cornell 28:19

Cornucopia 7:22 70:2

77:16 84:6,11 86:20

87:9 102:13,21 108:7

correct 54:4,16 106:10

133:18 138:6,6,7

142:22 144:7

correction 78:19

correctly 138:5

correlate 15:10

Costa 57:11

coughing 28:14
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counsel 83:5

count 134:3

counter 35:5,6

countries 20:7 56:14

128:1

couple 13:10 37:15

73:8 82:14 85:16 91:6

107:13 128:20

course 19:16 42:8 57:4

57:6 73:21 84:10

cover 143:6,7

coverage 14:3

covered 51:5 77:21

covering 51:6 77:22

covers 11:22 13:22

50:19

cow 29:2

cows 28:7,14,22 29:5

29:14 30:9 34:3,7

crafting 38:9

crazy 76:16

cream 128:7

create 50:12 52:10

113:9 114:13 115:7

created 103:7

creates 43:1 113:5

creating 53:15

creation 12:7

credentials 91:18

credibility 8:11

Crisantes 2:17 3:16

41:14 47:10,13,16

48:1,2,9,14,21 49:1

54:12,14,18

crisp 121:7 125:1

criteria 90:19 92:9,19

critical 52:6 57:6 84:10

85:20 98:17 99:17

139:3 140:8 141:1

critically 13:19 73:1

100:9 110:9

crop 49:5 51:15 58:15

91:5,12 101:10

crops 53:5 69:6 89:12

crucial 43:15

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cucumbers 49:2

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cultures 92:21

cure 98:3

cured 96:13 99:21

100:2

curing 98:16 99:11

current 13:10 16:8,14

26:22 28:5,7,9 29:9

44:22 45:18 80:22

114:3,11 115:5 116:2

137:18 141:7

currently 34:17,20

36:15 38:14 75:22

82:4,17 89:2 93:16

95:13 102:13 115:14

125:18

customers 49:10 53:11

cuts 98:11,14

cyclospora 137:21

D

D.C 36:5 112:21

dairy 1:20 26:19 27:2

28:8 29:2,13 92:21

101:10,12,21

damage 8:11

damaging 51:7,20

Dare 112:11,12,12

darn 85:15 135:13

data 14:21 15:8 34:4

database 89:7

date 122:1

day 27:10,22 28:2 29:3

30:1 94:13,13 104:3

138:6 139:11

days 27:21,22 28:22

32:18 34:2 82:12

134:22 135:9

de 1:17 10:19

deal 80:17,21 102:12

134:20 135:7

debate 39:11 53:7

decades 49:7

decent 85:15

decided 16:4 133:9,11

decimating 13:20

decision 74:22 81:10

85:5

decisions 92:11 102:15

104:22

declare 44:4

dedicated 80:3

dedication 133:13

deep 64:16

deeply 79:19

DeFazio 73:10

deficiencies 91:2

definition 105:8

degradation 137:5,12

degrees 10:1

delay 40:7

deleted 76:6

deleting 50:22

Delgado 69:5

deliberations 107:21

delighted 116:11

delivery 28:3

delve 20:8

demand 96:19

demanding 106:8

demands 114:4,11

115:5

DeMINTER 2:12 4:3

88:12,16,18,22 89:1

DEPARTMENT 1:1

Departments 46:8

depending 137:14

depleting 36:22

depth 85:10

Deputy 8:13 71:10 72:1

derive 43:20

derived 22:6

description 38:16,20

39:3,8

design 30:21

desirable 37:17

desired 140:8

desperately 78:6

detail 25:15 85:10

determination 27:15

83:16

determine 91:21 104:8

106:7

determined 8:3

determines 104:13

determining 91:1

detrimental 27:6

108:13

devaluing 73:18

develop 99:14,18 100:5

102:12 112:17 124:15

developed 70:22 71:1

72:5 98:1 114:1

developing 8:17 15:7

74:18

development 12:13,16

27:7 67:14 69:7 72:17

74:3 115:19 120:14

DEVON 2:4

deworm 29:13

dewormed 29:20 34:4,7

dewormers 27:5 33:1

deworming 27:8 29:9

31:12

DHA 22:10

diagnosis 28:19

dialed 55:6

Diana 97:8

Diane 2:11 4:4 88:13

94:16,18,20,21 95:3

100:12,20

diatomaceous 28:16

diet 30:11

dietary 98:21

difference 31:11 109:12

different 68:21 76:7,8

84:2 85:21 128:20

140:11

difficult 76:9 78:3 92:13

117:13 130:17 137:5

difficulties 6:1

difficulty 79:13 81:2

86:10

diligence 93:5,17

diligently 67:1

dioxide 128:6,8,12

129:11,19 130:1,20

131:11

dioxides 129:2 130:8

dire 23:8

direct 72:13

directed 28:17

direction 79:19

directly 15:22 71:7 80:8

Director 2:3 6:6 11:20

36:2 41:21 55:21

112:10 127:15

Directors 57:1 59:8

62:22

disappointment 78:2

disbanded 72:17

discernible 122:3

disclosure 84:19

discontinued 95:16

discourage 104:2

discouraging 108:13

discover 60:7

discovered 51:12

discuss 83:6

discussed 75:7

discussion 33:10 36:10

discussions 107:21

disease 14:9,11 30:18

51:9,19

diseases 50:14

disheartened 103:4

disrupted 50:10

disruption 114:14

distribution 119:13

disturbances 115:8

disturbed 79:20

diverse 52:11 138:13

diversified 90:22

diversity 52:16

divert 101:14

Division 2:3 6:6 7:2

document 33:10 76:19
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82:20

documentation 66:16

documented 65:7

121:18 139:5

dog 86:8

doing 26:12 106:12

110:13,17 111:3

double 124:9

doubles 43:19 121:5

downgraded 73:15

dozen 56:14

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23:18 25:22 31:20

32:3,10 33:14 35:17

41:4 47:4 48:16 55:4

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88:3 94:21 95:2

117:19 118:6,12

126:14,20 132:17,22

133:9,21 135:22

136:11,13,15 144:8

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dramatically 73:2

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drop 29:6

dropped 133:1,3

drugs 30:7

dry 42:20

drying 137:9

DSM 2:16 18:6 23:2

25:5,11

due 29:3 93:5,17

121:19 139:6

dung 27:6 33:3 65:11

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E

eager 13:5 39:21

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earlier 8:1

early 29:18 82:12

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easily 42:22 131:2

easy 67:17 76:20

eat 20:21 122:8 125:2

eco 122:20

eco-system 65:21

ecological 49:11

economic 43:13

economically 29:21

131:8

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121:10 129:3

effectively 50:15 72:16

107:5 140:14

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efficiency 52:1

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eight 27:21

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elaborate 62:14 74:15

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eliminate 20:19 51:8

52:21

eliminates 94:1

elimination 105:1,1

email 54:7,11 131:19

emergency 28:6 40:10

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encourage 23:4 91:5

92:17 102:20 115:18

encouraged 104:7

encourages 66:15

67:13

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enforcement 92:7

105:11

engaged 69:20

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105:22 106:16 107:10

108:3 109:3,20 110:1

110:6,11 111:4

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enjoy 50:3

enjoyed 116:5

enormously 134:10

ensure 66:13 91:15,22

104:5 112:18 116:10

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ensuring 97:19 111:20

113:2

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enthused 71:22

entire 29:13,19

environment 45:8 46:8

49:21 50:7 51:4 53:3

138:5

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20:20 42:8 44:8 46:12

51:10 69:1 97:21

environmentally 53:15

122:19

environments 52:10

enzyme 129:12

enzymes 129:7

EPA 22:10 44:7 45:4

46:10 89:11 90:13

eprinex 32:17,17

equally 58:19

Equivalency 59:16

especially 12:11 105:12

131:3,11

essential 58:15 59:11

116:3

established 21:19

27:10 50:9 104:20

establishment 92:18

estimate 128:17

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ethylene 58:16 62:11

120:2,10,11,17,19,19

120:21 121:1,2,16,20

Etka 2:17 3:13 35:11,14

35:16 36:1,2

evaluate 16:13 116:17

evaluated 20:4 104:12

eventually 110:15

everybody 5:3,17 35:18

64:4 106:15 133:19

133:21

everyday 80:2

evidence 8:5 33:2 45:9

evidenced 45:10

evolution 53:9

evolved 43:6

exacerbated 92:15

exactly 60:21 111:8

117:21 123:21

examining 14:8 140:17

example 21:10 31:22

32:14 45:13 50:17

60:4 81:11 97:19

98:15 122:18 137:19

examples 103:13

excavation 44:4

excellent 36:10 88:22

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exceptions 53:16

excess 43:10

excessive 30:1

excited 6:14 12:22

exclude 50:13,19 51:7

excluded 44:2 94:4

excluding 53:14 70:19

exclusion 51:19

Executive 55:21 75:7

exemption 37:4

exist 36:17

existed 104:20

existing 40:8 50:15

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expand 135:2,10

expect 116:7

expectations 99:20

116:10

experience 53:18 64:16

69:15 78:5 89:5

122:14

experimented 51:11

expired 72:14

explain 106:14

express 75:12 95:11

expressed 73:11 97:13

extensive 25:13 29:3

41:11 56:7 89:5

extent 137:17

external 30:11

extract 111:17,22

112:13,14 130:18

extracted 59:14

extracts 59:21

extraordinary 79:21

extremely 51:10 63:14

81:5 108:12

extruded 32:18

F

fabulous 135:4

face-to-face 134:17

136:7

faced 40:2

facilitator 2:6 5:5

facility 43:20

fact 21:5 40:8 42:11

61:4,8 70:11 73:15

78:20 79:4 84:5,13

98:22 101:22 108:11

137:17

factor 9:7

Factory 105:17

facts 23:6 102:21

faint 63:15
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faith 8:13

fall 10:4 15:18 29:14

93:11 95:19 134:20

fallen 58:5

familiar 34:12

families 53:1

family 49:3,9 80:5

101:9

FAO 19:14,16,19,22

20:12 25:3,9

far 21:1 62:18 96:12

98:2

farm 1:16 28:9 56:13

64:8 71:20 101:10,18

101:20

farmer 2:17 35:1 47:21

48:2 49:1 87:22 88:1

102:5 141:21

farmers 1:18 15:9 27:3

57:2,16,22 58:7 59:17

60:4,6 64:21 91:20

103:9 122:16,17

farms 17:11 35:3 43:5

49:3 50:8 59:18,20,20

66:2 108:14,17

fast 102:9 124:14

faster 122:4

father 49:6

fatty 20:22 22:7,8,10

favor 59:3

Favre 1:14 10:19 74:8

74:11 75:17,20 82:1,4

82:7,10 85:8 107:15

108:21 109:14,22

110:4

FBZ 28:11 29:12 31:4

31:15

FDA 15:18 16:4 20:21

21:19 27:11,14,17,19

38:16,20 39:2,7

feasible 29:21 122:16

feat 119:1

features 70:20

fecal 32:16 65:8

fed 28:15

federal 6:19 78:14

82:19 116:8

feed 52:22

feedback 10:15 49:13

feeding 28:21

feedlot 31:2,8

feedyard 31:5,11

feel 39:4 49:17 55:11

61:14 78:2 79:22 81:4

131:16

FEMA 111:16,21 112:4

112:5,15,15,20,21

113:3,7,8,11,14

116:13,14

Fenbendazole 27:1,11

27:11 30:22 31:8

33:21 34:18,22

Fenbendazole's 27:16

fermentation 128:15,16

129:1,15,16,18

fermentations 129:15

fertilization 43:18 44:1

44:20

fertilizer 42:4

Fetzer 2:10 55:2,9

127:15,16,18

fewer 120:22

field 32:1,15 51:11

125:17

fields 49:19 81:19

FIFRA 89:16

fight 14:19 86:8

fighting 140:6

figuratively 68:20

filed 8:1

fill 12:3 130:21

final 22:20 60:14 74:22

139:14

finalize 116:16

finally 140:16

financial 103:1

financially 43:5 71:18

108:18

find 13:15 25:22 31:22

44:15 53:12,13 58:4

84:1,2 92:13 97:12,14

135:12

finding 28:13 99:10

findings 14:7

finished 14:17 114:18

Fire 13:16,20

firm 41:21 46:6

first 10:8 11:8,17 12:4

14:17 15:16 18:16,17

32:4 36:7,14 37:16

42:5 49:5 56:9 67:18

68:20 70:4 80:10

85:16 96:1 101:20

104:3 119:2 120:3

127:3 128:13,21

134:14

first-hand 110:21

fish 18:11,13,17,18,18

18:19 19:1,2 20:3,6

20:13,16,16,20,22

21:3,6,11,13,21,22

22:1 23:3,5,8 24:2,7,8

24:11,11,13,17 25:14

59:5

fish-based 22:17

fished 18:18

fisheries 19:4,6,15,18

19:22 20:2,7,14 24:3

24:18 25:8

fishery 19:4,5 24:6,10

fishery's 19:11

fishing 18:22 19:8,18

25:4,5,10

fit 26:6 88:9 105:8

five 11:10 22:18 60:17

73:6 77:18 81:21 99:7

102:6,10 106:3 134:4

flagship 127:20

Flamm 2:11 3:21 63:12

68:9,14,15,17 73:8

74:16,21 76:4

flavor 2:18 99:19

111:16,22 112:1,5,8

112:18,22,22 113:1,4

113:5 114:8,15,21

115:19 116:16,18

117:7 120:14

flavoring 113:3

flavors 92:4,5,16 93:22

112:14 113:9,13,16

113:20,21 114:1,2,5

114:10,11,22 115:1,4

115:6,9,11,14,22

116:2,3,10

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104:10,15 105:3

106:19,20 113:3

131:11 134:20

Mathison 119:6,6

Mathisons 119:15

matter 15:5,6 58:20

59:12,22 84:5 110:14

116:15 144:19

matured 71:3

maturity 120:4

maximizes 43:14

McEvoy 2:4 39:15 72:2

72:3,12,22

McEvoy's 8:13

MCP-1 123:21 125:8

mealy 120:17

mean 24:3 41:10 46:6

58:8 60:13,21 123:22

means 24:16 64:17

93:15 135:9

meant 91:7 104:2

measurable 21:14,15

measure 15:6

measures 67:5

meat 26:22 28:1 29:12

37:14 95:22 98:19

99:11,21 100:2

meats 95:11 96:14

mechanism 106:12

media 52:16

medication 28:3

meet 8:20 52:15 99:20

116:8,9 119:15

meeting 6:15,18 7:6,8

9:11 33:9 39:15 56:6

70:4,5 72:6 86:22

94:14 95:19 102:6

104:3 106:15 107:1,4

107:9 134:17 136:6,8

meetings 6:17,18 7:7

70:9,15 102:22

103:18 104:1

member 69:1 70:3,6

77:15,17 102:5

members 6:10,11 10:10

33:6 39:21 40:6,19

56:21,22 57:2,9,11

68:18 78:4 81:3

100:16 102:20 107:7

107:19 110:20 112:21

113:3,9 117:4 136:4

142:8

membership 56:12

memo 39:8

mention 101:22 119:7

mentioned 39:15 99:8

119:21 135:1 142:19

menu 118:12

mercury 21:10,14,21

22:3

mercy 85:3

merit 8:12

mesh 51:5

message 5:22 97:13

met 1:10

metabolized 22:11

121:15

method 92:6

methods 13:6 17:10

50:16 53:9 94:5

137:10,15 138:3

methyl 36:14,22 37:2,8

Mexico 49:4,6

Michelle 2:2 10:9,12

48:10 54:5,13

Michelle.arsenault@...

54:15

microbe 66:5

microbes 139:4 140:9

microbial 138:19

139:17

micronutrient 90:21

91:2,11

micronutrients 60:10

90:20 91:9,21 92:1

microorganisms 92:21

mid-Atlantic 42:15

migrate 52:21

Miles 2:4 8:13 39:15

72:2

milk 26:22 27:10,12,17

28:11 29:3,4,8,12,22

30:1 33:22 34:1

101:13 105:19

milligrams 121:13

million 27:13,15 71:13

128:17 130:12,13

mind 122:12

mine 44:3

mined 44:3

minerals 30:10 43:15

43:18,21 44:1,13

minimize 5:12 50:6

51:3

minimized 50:18

minimum 15:21 89:18

mining 44:9

minor 98:19

minute 11:10 16:15

22:19

minutes 60:17 73:7

81:21 103:22 106:3

134:17 135:11,12

misinterpreted 19:7

missed 4:11 134:7

mission 44:17 45:8

56:16 102:16

mitigated 137:17

mixed 120:5

model 43:14

modern 27:2 28:7 46:16

modernization 89:14

modestly 127:22

modify 37:19

molecule 119:22

molecules 130:2

MOM's 1:17

moment 7:1

moneyed 103:9,11

monitor 35:21

Montana 56:1 70:1

month 15:21 95:19

months 28:10 124:19

Montreal 37:3

morning 133:10 141:14

MOSA 2:12 88:12,17

89:2 94:15

MOSA-certified 92:22

motivation 103:1

mountains 10:2 135:19

mouth 99:2

move 13:4 15:13 23:5

52:19 53:20 68:11

88:6 100:22 117:11
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118:5

moved 31:1

moves 19:10 53:6

143:14

moving 136:2

moxidectin 34:9,11

65:2

mute 5:12,17 9:18,20

10:15 35:19,21 48:17

48:19 64:4,5 132:12

muted 87:17 95:2

132:18

N

name 7:14 11:19 18:4

36:1 41:21 48:1,22

55:5 64:7 77:11 87:11

88:4 89:1,8 90:12

101:8 112:3 117:14

119:1 127:14 133:22

narrow 38:20

national 1:3 2:6,17 5:4

8:7,14,15,17 9:6

12:14 13:1 15:3 16:1

36:3 42:6 92:3 93:3

103:5,7,14,16,17,21

105:2,4,6,11 113:13

114:6,12,22 115:7,12

125:8 130:12 140:22

nationally 69:16

natural 31:13 49:21

50:7 52:6,16 92:5

95:10 97:11 100:4

112:17 119:14,22

120:11 125:2 129:17

139:10,13

naturally 59:11,22

96:13 99:11 100:2

128:15,18 130:3

nature 23:7 49:11,17

50:10 83:8 103:2

137:14

natured 52:11

NB 6:10

nearly 27:17

necessarily 53:4 58:13

necessary 98:7 104:5

140:3

need 15:16 17:7 39:18

46:15 51:8 52:4,21

57:21 61:15 62:11,16

64:22 66:18 71:4

78:18 81:3 83:9 90:1

93:12 98:10 99:13

104:10 116:22 119:7

119:16 120:9 127:5

139:22 142:21

needed 13:19 16:4

73:22 91:21 93:6

97:14 99:18 111:7

needs 16:10,14 19:20

29:20 44:20,21 63:4

75:12 120:18

negative 28:10 31:12

65:15

neither 46:4 47:6 53:16

nematodes 51:21

neutral 105:15,17

neutralizes 129:7

Nevertheless 53:2

new 6:5 39:17 56:3 72:1

93:4 101:11 108:14

newborn 34:6

NGOs 69:17

nice 111:3 128:1

Nichols 101:11

nickel 92:2

nine 15:21

nitrate 98:6,20 99:3,4

nitrates 37:12,17 97:20

98:19 99:1

nitrite 98:20,21 99:3

nitrites 98:6 99:5,6

nitrogen 45:16 46:2

NOC 36:4,12 37:6 39:8

39:21 40:6,15 41:10

Nogales 48:5

noise 5:13 35:20 64:5

87:16 95:3

Noland 2:13 3:15 35:12

41:13,16,19 46:20,22

47:8

non 19:20 37:10 115:5

115:21

non-GMO 14:15

non-organic 28:10

29:11,22 35:3 37:16

non-persistent 121:19

non-profit 11:21

non-synthetic 44:13

113:12,21 114:5,11

114:21 115:9,11,14

116:16

non-toxic 121:19

nonsynthetic 65:3 67:6

NOP 7:1 8:21 39:8,17

40:3,8,16 57:10,10

71:11 72:16 74:21

75:11 92:8,17 95:14

104:13,17,19 110:8

110:16 113:11 128:10

135:3

NOP/JAS 59:16

normal 28:22 125:4

Normally 98:21

Northeastern 15:4

Northumbrian 143:18

Northwest 26:18

NOSB 1:13,14,14 2:3

6:11,17,18,21 7:7

10:9 12:15 13:11,14

14:10 15:1,14 20:8

23:4 29:7 33:2 36:6,8

39:10,15 40:19 42:7

52:17 61:15 68:22

69:11 70:4 74:2 77:17

78:4,13 83:2 85:2

91:22 92:18 95:17,18

96:2 100:6 102:5,18

104:1,8,13,21 110:16

110:20,21 111:19

113:15 114:19 115:15

116:14,17 117:4

131:9 134:22 136:7

136:18 142:7

NOSB's 38:7

NOSB/NOP 72:4

notation 23:4

note 18:17 38:4 65:4,22

noted 128:13

notes 24:1 84:1,3

notice 32:15

noting 38:7

number 34:8 69:21

87:11,15 88:4 113:22

117:21,21 118:8,9

133:1

numbers 67:8

nurseries 36:16,21

nutrient 97:22

nutrients 30:10 45:4

nutritional 18:7,8

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o'clock 133:9 141:14,19

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obedient 9:20

obtain 37:21

obviously 84:21 104:2

occasions 64:18

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occurred 28:18

occurring 27:13 59:11

128:15

occurs 128:18

ocean 24:18

October 1:7 72:6

offer 108:22

offering 104:14

offers 49:17

office 7:15 10:16 46:11

71:16 72:11 135:21

offshore 19:10,13

OFPA 103:6

Oh 77:8 84:3 133:13

141:20

Ohana 1:16

oil 18:11,13,18 20:13,16

20:16,17,20 21:7,8,11

21:13,21 23:3,5,8

24:2,7,11,11,13,17

25:14 139:6

oils 19:2 21:3,4,6 22:1

24:8 137:12

okay 5:3 6:4 9:19 11:3

18:3 22:19 23:19

24:19,20 31:19,21

32:6,7 33:19 34:8,16

35:8 36:1 41:8,19

47:6,7 48:20,21 55:7

61:1 63:9,16,21 64:6

68:2 75:17 77:8,19

79:8 85:8 86:17 88:6

90:17 94:21 95:2,4,7

101:8 110:4 111:15

117:11 123:17 125:14

125:22 126:10,12

127:8 132:20 133:4

134:4,7 136:20 142:2

142:15 143:11,16

144:13

old 85:11

Omega-3 18:9 22:7,15

22:16,17

once 48:17 110:15

122:2 124:10,13

ones 31:6 85:15

ongoing 79:14 93:2

online 5:7,10 14:4 26:5

open 40:12 45:7 51:11

open-ended 44:18

operate 6:19 29:21 45:4

101:9

operates 46:6

operations 7:20 8:4 9:4

49:8 52:9,15 53:4

57:4 62:16 89:4 92:22

105:18 108:12 109:7

opinion 20:15 34:9

58:13

opinions 23:5

opportunity 6:14,16

11:18 40:21 56:3

64:10 67:1 94:6 95:11

100:9 111:18 116:13

116:20 119:3 123:9

137:2

opposed 109:13

orchard 122:19

orchards 13:21

order 22:10 27:2 83:14

95:20 98:10
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OREI 17:2

organic 1:3,13,17,18

2:5,6,14,17,17 5:4 7:9

7:14 8:7,14,15,20,21

8:22 9:3,4,6 11:21

12:22 13:5,16 14:8,12

14:16,18,21 15:6 16:1

16:7,9,12,14 17:9

21:2,6 22:14 23:3

24:11 27:2 28:1,5,8

28:20 29:6,12 30:4

32:1,14,21 34:14,22

36:3,15,16,17,19 37:7

37:11,13,14 38:14,15

39:6,18 40:5 42:4,6

43:18,22 44:12,14,17

44:20 45:16 47:21

48:2,4 49:1,8,8,15,17

50:1,13,15 51:15,22

53:8 55:21 56:11,13

56:15,17,19,22 57:1,3

58:18 59:12,19,22

61:11 62:18 64:10,13

64:15,21 65:11,15,18

66:2,4,17,18 67:8

69:16 70:1,12,14,16

71:15,20,21 72:7

73:14,16,18 75:16

80:4,16,18 92:5 95:10

95:14,22 96:5,13,16

96:20,21 97:5,10,10

98:1,4,8,9,11,16

99:12,22 100:4,7

101:10,13,20 102:3

102:17 103:5,7,14,16

103:17 105:2,6,8,11

105:19 108:14 109:5

109:10 111:20 112:4

112:13,19 113:20

114:1,2,7,10,14,15,18

114:21 115:4,9,10,13

115:19,21 116:2,4,5,7

116:8,11 119:6,8,16

119:17 120:2 121:21

122:12 123:2 124:17

127:18,20 128:3

139:15,16 141:1

organically 8:17 9:2

37:20 50:4 99:10

organics 16:6 45:19

53:10,21 71:18,19

81:12 105:10

organisms 51:20

organization 11:21

17:17 46:13 56:5

71:12 77:12 108:6

112:7

organizations 19:21

organized 56:12

original 45:10,15

OTA 112:16

ought 86:5

outdoor 39:14,19 40:4

40:18 109:4

outer 50:20

outfit 43:4

outlawed 37:3

outline 78:11

outlived 45:9

outlook 108:19,20

outside 7:21 141:8

outweigh 21:1

over-exploited 19:2

over-generalization

20:11

over-generalizes 19:17

overall 130:15

overcome 64:20

overseas 135:4

oxidative 129:7

oxygen 129:21 130:1,2

ozone 128:7

ozones 130:9

P

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

5:1

p.m 1:11 5:2 144:20

packages 50:6

packed 125:6

PAGE 3:2

paid 70:8

panel 45:13 99:11

paper 40:15,19

paragraph 106:1

parasite 26:20 29:17

64:20 66:6

parasites 30:12,14

31:13 64:18

parasiticide 66:13

parasiticides 3:19

64:13 66:22

pardon 78:14 82:2

Parker 2:13 4:19 111:11

117:12,17 132:16

133:5 136:14,14,20

136:21 137:1,4,8,21

138:11 140:16,21

141:11,16,19 142:1

142:15 143:1,12

144:2

part 27:12 40:13 61:10

85:1 86:4 93:4 96:7

136:5 139:18 143:7,9

participant 5:8

participants 56:22

participate 41:20 58:1

participation 104:3

particular 42:8 62:17

90:2

particularly 39:14,19

139:20

partners 96:21 100:5

partnerships 19:22

parts 21:16,17 27:15

80:1 128:17,17

130:12,13

passing 14:5

passionate 49:22

paste 139:22

pasture 30:21 31:4,8,11

32:8,16 34:14 64:17

105:13 108:2,12

109:1,2,3

path 82:13

pathogen 40:14 98:7

141:2

pathway 30:15

Patrick 73:10

pats 32:16,20

PATTILLO 2:4

Paul 2:3,16 3:4,10 4:16

6:5,5 7:12 9:10 17:18

17:21 18:4 22:19

23:12,20 25:12

135:20,21

PDC 72:5

peace 122:12

peak 27:11,16 29:16

pear 13:21

pectin 92:21

pelagic 22:1

pellets 28:15,21

people 11:5,7 18:19

21:3 43:3 68:8 70:4

80:2 86:4,7 104:7

109:11 134:1,12

135:2

people's 106:7

pepper 49:2 51:1

peppers 50:22

percent 9:5 22:13 31:5

31:9 52:4,5 57:8

59:19 96:5,16 113:4

percentage 96:8 105:19

Perdue 43:4

perfect 41:19

performance 29:16

performing 37:12

period 29:4 121:8

permits 18:12 45:5

permitted 19:11

peroxide 66:21

persistent 65:13,16

person 26:18 71:15

88:7

personal 78:4

persons 144:6

perspective 75:5

107:22 123:15

perspectives 74:12

Peruvian 19:4 24:2,6

pest 51:9,19

pesticides 14:12

pests 50:14 51:7

Peter 73:10

petition 73:1 125:8,13

127:2,5

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143:10,14,14

phase 14:17

PhD 1:11,13,20,21

phone 5:6 62:6 87:11

100:19

phosphate 44:9

phosphates 43:22 44:4

photo 32:8

pick 123:22

picked 120:3

piles 44:6

pillar 25:11

pineapple 58:16,20

62:19 63:2

pineapples 58:19

place 28:7 45:16 53:8

80:10 81:11 86:6

102:6 103:5 123:8

140:14

placed 30:20 80:9

places 25:5 57:12

placing 29:11

plain 120:6

plan 13:4 75:6,11

planning 125:12

plans 40:3 74:18

plant 14:11 22:5,15

120:11

plant-derived 18:15

22:6

planted 49:5 50:20

plants 52:2,13 138:4

play 96:6

please 10:14 11:11 23:7

28:4 29:8 31:18 33:3

35:18,18,20 60:5 64:4

64:5 74:15 88:8 89:16

89:21 90:10,17 91:17

118:19 134:3

pleased 36:7 37:22

135:14

pledge 71:20

plucked 78:17
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pneumonia 31:7

point 42:5 43:21 46:14

68:5 73:9 85:17 86:19

107:16 113:19 135:6

points 38:16 42:19 73:8

83:6 123:19 128:20

Policies 71:1 82:16

policy 2:5 7:9,15 36:2

69:7 70:22 72:8,9,17

72:18 73:12 74:9

75:13 78:10,20 82:5

89:2 104:18

political 71:17

polled 31:6

pollinator 17:5,7

pollinators 17:10

polls 31:10

pollutant 45:2

pollution 42:13 45:2

46:16

polyunsaturated 22:8

poor 19:7 65:5

portfolio 96:6

portion 139:18

pose 139:4

position 46:5 57:20

possible 24:14 37:19

98:12,16 125:13

post-harvest 119:12

125:20

potassium 128:6

133:16 142:4

potential 43:1 93:18

potentially 20:10

poultry 39:14,20 40:3,5

40:12 109:1,4,5

pour-on 32:17

powder 37:10,11,16

95:9,12,13,19 96:15

96:17 97:7,15 98:2,13

99:5,15,16 100:7

power 43:7 46:3

PowerPoint 26:13

48:11 54:3

PPM 71:1 73:19,20 79:5

82:17

practical 42:22 67:4

91:3

practically 49:16

practice 26:18

practices 15:2,11 16:8

16:14 17:8 67:11

Prairie 97:10

pre-harvest 125:21

preceded 86:4

predator 51:3

preference 92:5

preliminary 14:20

preparation 138:3

preparations 38:5

preparers 84:18

preparing 6:21

prescribe 34:22

prescription 34:19 35:4

35:7

prescriptive 93:13

presence 50:22

present 1:12 2:1,9 11:5

75:6 118:20 119:3

presentation 11:11

26:16 47:17 48:12

54:2 62:10 100:12

123:19 131:21 142:5

142:17

presentations 14:7

70:7,8

presented 23:6 82:17

presenter 25:17 87:4

presenters 41:6

presently 69:20 74:9

preservation 137:15

preservatives 138:4

141:5

preserve 52:6 102:17

129:10

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President 48:3 102:14

presiding 1:11

pressed 128:22

pressure 51:10

pretty 83:14 85:15

111:6 135:13

prevent 13:20 45:16

122:11 141:6

prevention 94:4

preventive 61:10 64:19

67:5

prevents 139:12

previously 99:8

prices 28:10

primarily 18:11 21:22

64:15 69:12 101:17

primary 24:2,3,7 51:18

101:12

principle 52:8

prior 33:9,10 107:8

129:20

priorities 3:7,13 12:6,8

12:10,12,16 13:11

15:15 17:2 36:9,11

38:9

prioritize 37:7

priority 13:15 14:10

15:2 17:5 66:20 67:13

private 69:17

Proactive 30:3

probably 59:2 76:13

111:6 133:10 141:21

problem 40:14 41:7

46:2 48:15 80:22 97:4

problematic 65:13

problems 5:20 26:20

40:8,14 143:22

Procedure 70:22 72:9

72:18 75:13 78:10,21

procedures 72:3,10

73:2 74:9 82:5,16

104:18

process 16:6 29:22

38:6 56:20 57:7 69:12

73:1,20 74:13 75:21

93:5 103:19 125:3,4

129:1,20 130:22

142:21

processed 37:14 98:19

114:14 115:8,21

116:4,5,7

processes 95:15

processing 56:13

processors 98:10

produce 49:15 105:18

131:12

produced 8:18 9:2

120:12

producer 1:13 28:20

29:4 61:4

producers 8:22 16:14

29:13 30:4 32:21

57:16 58:20 59:4

61:14 62:19 63:5

64:15 65:18 66:18

97:7

producing 51:14 100:3

product 18:21 21:14

27:5,14 33:2 34:12,13

44:10 90:3,15 114:18

119:13 125:10 131:7

138:18,19 139:1,3,14

140:8,11

production 29:1,6

36:15 37:9 48:4 49:9

50:13 51:1,2,11 52:5

52:18 53:5 64:14

116:5 120:20 121:2

122:9

productions 50:11

productive 7:6 52:13

productivity 15:10

products 8:18,19 9:2,3

18:7,8 27:8 37:14

44:2 49:14 65:5,14

66:8 89:8 90:12 96:5

96:14,18 97:9 98:4

100:4,8 111:21

113:10 115:9,13,21

116:8 131:6

professional 59:9 91:7

91:10,11,13

professionals 91:19

program 2:6 5:4 8:7,14

8:15,16,22 9:6 16:1

42:6 43:18 44:1 46:11

52:2 61:10 70:14 83:1

83:4,17 90:13 103:5

103:11,16 105:12

112:19

programs 7:16 11:20

38:11 44:20

progress 39:22 76:22

prohibit 65:16

prohibited 38:18 39:6

44:13

prohibiting 45:12

prohibition 42:3 44:19

45:9 46:15

prohibits 38:14

project 14:8,11,18 15:3

16:15

projects 12:17 13:10

15:12 43:11,16

promote 30:12,14

56:18

promotes 46:16

promoting 45:12

proper 30:8,15

properties 140:4,6

property 131:4

proposal 3:7,12 60:9

91:11 92:2

proposals 38:10 82:18

proposed 15:18 42:2

71:6 72:8 89:13 90:21

91:3

proprietary 90:7

protect 65:19 66:19

103:8 124:22 141:2

protecting 65:11

protects 130:2

protocol 37:3

proud 100:1

proved 76:15

proven 29:10

provide 11:19 13:19

14:6 37:14 56:3,17

66:22 84:15 93:6 98:6

102:22 109:6 122:13

122:21 140:4 142:20

provided 131:16

provides 6:16 138:14

140:3

providing 108:12

psyllid 14:13,20
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159

public 3:6 5:15 6:11,17

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39:11 70:6,9,10,15,18

71:1,7 78:22 80:8

82:18 86:22 103:19

104:1,2,6,12 107:7,8

110:14 134:2 135:5,6

135:11

published 14:4

purchase 36:20

purport 45:14

pushing 110:8

put 13:14 42:21 60:18

71:14 75:22 78:21

123:22 124:10

puts 115:12 124:17

putting 36:8 46:2

106:18 108:16 125:21

135:5 140:22

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qualified 91:14

qualify 24:17 25:8

qualities 129:10

quality 18:6 32:22

56:17 80:4,16 81:9

83:13 85:3 92:12,15

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116:1 119:12 122:3

122:21 123:6 124:3

124:20,22 129:13

130:16 131:4,6,12

139:5

quantify 24:4

quantities 43:9 44:11

114:3

quantity 92:12 114:8,16

question 17:14 20:9

23:16,18 24:22 25:9

33:14 34:17 67:19

74:8 85:7 108:22

123:14,19 126:10,13

126:22 142:14

Questionnaire 112:18

questions 17:13,15

23:12,22 33:13,20

37:15 41:1,4 47:1,2,4

59:4 61:22 68:3 80:15

82:1,3,14 89:15 91:6

94:9,10,14 97:1

100:15 106:5,7

107:12,13 117:3

123:12 126:6 131:18

131:20 142:7,9

quick 33:19 61:2 83:14

quickly 13:9 130:19

quit 109:8

quite 6:2 42:16 61:9

63:20 67:18 108:8

119:1 142:4

quotas 24:15,15

quote 21:13

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RAAC 112:7,8

Rachel 49:7

radar 17:1

Radiance 1:20

radiation 38:14,15,17

38:22 39:3,5

radioactive 44:5,11

raise 39:12 101:15

raised 12:20

raises 37:15

raising 39:9 109:7

Rakola 2:5 3:5 7:9,12

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range 56:21 139:3

140:8

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raw 16:2 139:11

reaction 45:3,8

read 7:17 10:9 25:14

41:10,12 49:6 62:9

100:15 131:15 133:16

reading 25:16 76:5

94:13 107:2 133:18

ready 53:18 123:16

ReadyTalk 6:2

ReadyTalk.com 5:8 6:3

real 34:12 61:2

reality 45:1 46:17 72:3

really 11:6 12:6,15,22

13:5 16:5 17:7 43:4

44:20 57:15 60:7,9

63:20 64:11 71:16

76:22 80:1 81:8,21

94:5 107:19 127:5

130:5 131:3,5 134:13

136:2 138:13 144:2

reason 40:7 49:14

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recall 48:11

receive 22:14 128:21

received 31:7 32:17

86:21 94:11 100:13

142:3

receiving 69:3 74:14

receptor 120:19

reclaimed 43:14,21

recognize 91:19 123:3

recognized 22:8

recommend 20:21

34:13 73:17 121:12

recommendation 12:6

91:8,9 92:18 105:7,14

113:16

recommendations 6:22

52:17 65:9 70:17

91:13,20 104:16

116:18

recommended 39:9

114:20 121:14

recommends 23:2

67:12

record 11:12 110:14

144:20

recover 28:22

red 129:17

redline 76:14

redlines 76:17

reduce 20:19 26:22

29:7 52:3,4 99:3

130:10

reduced 22:4 49:20

redundant 93:19

reference 15:8 19:20

89:14,17

referenced 92:1

refers 91:9,11

refined 20:17 21:8

refining 20:18 22:4

reflect 42:11 108:9

reflective 46:17

reflects 11:13 44:22

regard 38:8 40:4

regarding 7:19 38:13

42:1 89:16 92:8 93:6

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regional 96:14

regions 24:18 44:9 53:5

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register 78:14 79:9

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regular 74:13

regulated 19:6 24:16

44:7,11 45:4

regulation 58:16

regulations 16:1 65:16

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regulatory 7:16 8:16

18:5 112:9,10 113:8

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reiterate 66:7 82:15

relate 36:6

related 12:12 16:9

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relationship 40:17 83:3

relationships 79:16

104:20

relative 85:19

relatively 102:4 122:1

reliable 102:19

relied 62:19

relisting 23:3

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remain 34:21 65:12

114:5,22 139:3

remains 18:22

remarks 4:14,21 7:11

17:16 31:18

remember 102:7

removal 30:11 103:20

115:5

remove 73:3

removed 29:17 33:1

67:9

removing 27:4 67:7

114:11 115:11

renewable 43:7 46:3

renewed 43:19 95:16

repeat 56:7

replace 43:22 46:15

replaced 44:22

replacement 97:14

replacements 100:6

replacing 140:17

report 13:22 19:14,19

20:1,12 21:12

reports 65:8 86:11

represent 56:21 77:12

77:14,15 80:10

representative 94:15

represented 80:2

representing 84:11

represents 93:5

request 92:7 141:11

requested 5:11

requests 38:9

require 91:17 92:4

93:14

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66:16 73:4 91:15

114:19 143:7

requirement 15:22 25:5

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requirements 25:9 75:2

requires 30:10 34:18

139:15

requiring 73:3

research 3:7,13 12:6,7

12:9,12,15,17 13:15

15:15,17 16:4,6 17:2

17:5,8 36:9,10 37:7

38:2,9,11,21 67:14

97:11,17 99:5,14
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140:17 141:7

researched 121:18

researchers 13:7,18

14:6 16:8

residue 121:15

residues 43:20

resilient 67:2

resistance 27:7 66:7,9

resolve 143:22

resort 66:10

resorted 28:20

resources 51:14 52:6

122:9 129:4

respect 102:12 104:19

108:3

respected 19:16 86:7

respiratory 30:18

responded 13:17

response 14:10 30:16

55:1 70:18 87:6 88:15

94:19 100:17 117:16

118:11 132:7,10,14

133:6 144:11

responsible 8:16 20:13

25:4 120:13,15

130:15

rest 33:8 82:13

restaurants 101:18

restore 73:17

restored 74:2

restrictive 26:22 29:11

result 16:15 36:19 39:4

67:7 72:20 137:11

140:19

resulting 139:9

resumed 29:1

retail 9:2

retained 115:16

return 73:19

REUBEN 1:21

reveals 129:13

revenue 43:19

reverse 73:12

review 8:2 17:6 33:9

58:11 59:1 71:2 84:8

89:7,19 90:5,19 91:8

93:5,12,19 95:9 96:3

109:18 116:17

reviewed 19:20 45:14

58:10 93:1 125:10

reviewers 85:18 86:14

reviewing 89:6 95:18

reviews 81:3,10 84:16

85:11,21 86:3,6 104:9

revision 71:4 72:8

revisions 15:18

rewrite 70:19

Rica 57:11

Richardson 1:11,13 3:5

4:12,15 9:15,19 10:19

10:21,22 11:2,16

16:20 17:12 18:2

22:18 23:1,11,17,19

24:20 25:2,12 26:3,11

31:19 32:2,6 33:5,15

35:9,15 40:22 41:2,8

41:18 46:18,21 47:1,6

47:9,15,19 48:6 54:1

54:10,13,16,19 55:2,7

55:18 60:16,20 61:1

61:20 62:3,5 63:10,14

63:18 64:1 67:16 68:2

68:16 73:6 74:4 75:18

76:12 77:8,11,19

78:18 79:4 81:20 82:3

85:6 86:17 87:3,7,18

88:6,16,20 94:8 95:1

95:5 100:11,18,22

101:4,6 105:20 106:2

106:17 107:11 110:7

111:1,8,14 117:2,6,17

118:1,4,14,18 123:11

123:17 126:4,12,16

127:9,13 131:13

132:2,8,11,13,15,19

133:4,7,12 134:6

136:9,17 141:13,18

141:20 142:3,11,13

143:17 144:4,13,18

right 10:21 11:1 16:18

16:20 47:16 54:11

68:17 83:2 85:5 88:21

109:14,22 110:4

111:9 118:14 129:22

134:8 144:4

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ripen 122:4

risk 5:13 89:18 137:16

Robert 2:16 17:19

25:17,19,19 26:1,2,3

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robust 66:5

role 70:13 80:8

roles 53:21

rolling 18:4

Roman 128:13

room 121:11 124:1,18

124:18

rooms 120:1,3,5,6

ROSEN 2:3

rot 120:17 121:4

rotational 16:10

roughly 59:19 96:15

routine 65:17

row 50:19

rule 38:14 105:13

rules 39:17 40:4,9

105:12,16 128:10

ruling 16:3

ruminants 109:2

run 5:20 40:11

runoff 97:22

rushing 20:10

S

Saavedra 2:18 111:13

111:15 112:4

safe 27:14,17,22 34:1

85:5 121:9

Safe-Guard 28:21

safely 90:16

safer 89:21 90:9,11,13

90:14

safety 15:17 17:3 21:18

98:2,3,7,9 99:19

119:19 138:15,18

139:4,14

sales 29:3 96:9,16

salt 139:16 141:5

sanitation 14:1 130:7

sanitizers 38:2

sanitizing 138:8

sardines 22:2

satisfactorily 114:17

satisfy 114:3,10 115:5

satisfying 122:13

Sauvignon 129:8,14

saying 61:16 67:18

123:5

says 118:1

scald 124:15

scale 36:16 105:15,17

scarce 51:13

scenes 7:3

science 11:20 40:16

143:8

scientific 13:6 17:6

scientists 15:9

Scoles 2:15 3:18 54:21

55:14,17,20,20 60:19

60:21 61:3 62:21

scope 128:4

Scotswoman 143:21

scrambled 107:2

screen 5:22 17:15 32:8

41:5 47:5,18,20 48:7

55:5 62:1,6 84:2

94:10 100:16 118:13

screens 76:7

sea 19:3

seal 8:20,21 73:16,18

searched 54:6

season 19:8 29:18,19

122:14 138:6

seat 69:1

second 10:7 26:16

37:10,19 38:12 42:9

secondary 30:17

secrecy 103:15

secret 104:11

Secretary 1:15 7:16

73:12 75:1

section 38:1 76:6

sections 33:4

sector 40:3 56:22 95:22

114:14 116:4

secure 96:21

security 30:8

see 11:4 12:11 17:14

23:12 24:12 35:3

39:21 41:4,6 47:4,19

48:7 54:7 55:4,12

57:3 60:13 61:22 65:4

66:8,9 68:3 74:1

79:20 88:3,4 90:5,8

91:12 93:19 94:9

100:16 131:17,19,20

132:3 133:14 135:3

142:6 144:15

seeing 32:7 33:13 41:3

117:3 135:16

seen 121:4 137:22

segment 62:17 100:2

segments 62:18

select 45:3

sell 101:16 108:14,15

108:17

Senate 38:6

Senator 73:10

send 5:22 54:11

sending 56:5 74:12

Sensational 20:12

sense 78:1 81:15 128:4

sensible 60:12 66:17

85:4 91:1

sensitive 137:4

sensory 116:9

sent 41:10,11 48:8 55:9

62:22 133:13

sentences 22:21

separate 106:18,20,21

separately 20:4

September 72:21

sequence 14:2 68:8

88:10 135:7

sequestration 15:7

serious 72:20

seriously 7:20

seriousness 70:7

servant 8:10

served 69:1,9 70:13
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79:12

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setup 73:20

seven 26:18 31:9 71:13

severely 28:6 96:18

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shade 2:14 3:8 11:9,15

11:17,19 13:3 16:22

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share 40:19 53:18 59:7

61:4 64:11

shark 19:3

she'll 54:17 55:14 88:12

94:17 111:10 117:12

sheets 93:2,16

shelf 109:13 138:22

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shelves 109:11

shining 10:1

ship 101:12

shocked 72:16

short 15:13 39:16 40:15

122:1

shortly 127:7

show 32:13 34:5 60:5

showed 85:22

showing 9:18 26:1

28:14 32:11,13 47:17

shown 38:21 141:7

shows 27:20 31:12

sick 28:6

side 5:21 62:15 68:21

111:6 124:4 143:19

signed 5:14 134:1

144:9

significant 43:2,12

44:11 52:11 96:7

97:16 114:13 115:7

significantly 20:19

signs 28:14

Silent 49:7

similar 93:21 120:1

Similarly 66:6

simply 119:14

sincerely 141:11

single 42:12 138:19

140:12

sit 7:15 68:20 85:2

site 118:7

sites 50:14 51:1 120:18

120:19,20 121:1

situation 78:3 79:15,21

81:1

situations 20:5

six 28:2 32:18 89:9

108:15 124:19

size 62:16

sizes 62:12,18

skin 124:16

sky 10:2

slide 26:14,14 27:8,18

28:3 29:8,16 30:2,13

30:19 31:14,18 32:2,4

32:4,5

slides 26:13 33:7 47:17

slight 78:19

slightly 125:4

slower 125:4

slowing 121:20

slows 121:2

small 22:1 57:19 58:21

101:14,16 109:5,6

122:16,17 129:18

137:18

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119:18,21,21 120:5,8

120:22 121:4,9

122:10,19 123:4

124:7,21

smoke 141:6

snow 135:18

snow-topped 10:2

SO2 128:12 130:6

society 49:12

sodium 133:16 137:1

138:12 139:16,18

140:10,18,22 141:8

142:4 143:2,4

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soften 120:16 121:3

124:14

softening 125:2

softer 122:5

soil 15:2,3,5,5,6,7,10

16:12 32:22 51:6

59:11 65:19 66:5

soils 36:22

sold 35:5,6 113:5

solid 52:8

solution 40:13 49:18

53:3 98:16

solutions 14:9 43:6

45:3

solving 43:10 46:1

somebody 10:13 55:6

somewhat 103:8

son 119:6

Sonnabend 1:18 10:20

SONYA 2:7

soon 69:9 125:13

sorry 23:15,17 24:11

44:14 47:2 48:11 54:9

77:7,21 94:18

sort 16:21 78:19 79:5

99:22 123:13 129:5

131:2

sorted 89:22

sorts 130:9

sound 67:3

sounds 10:21 11:3

144:2

source 22:16 24:2,7

96:22 98:1,19,20,21

101:12 102:19

sourced 22:1

sources 45:17,21 91:17

108:4

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space 14:2 96:14 97:10

speak 57:20 59:2 63:19

63:20 77:10 78:1

82:22 83:10 85:12

86:8 88:1 95:20 96:4

97:1 117:12 119:4

133:20 134:3 142:10

143:20

speaker 11:8 17:18

26:7 35:11 41:13 47:9

54:20 55:13 63:11

68:9 77:2 87:21 88:11

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speakers 4:11 135:12

speaking 48:18,18 58:7

68:20 109:1,2,3

111:16 126:17 136:13

spec 93:2,16

special 68:18

species 19:3

specific 15:5 17:8

23:12 38:18 97:1

120:18 123:12

specifically 38:22

110:20

spend 110:21

spent 69:18 140:17

spice 138:17 139:11

spices 137:12,13 138:1

split 30:21

spoil 130:19

spoilage 131:1

spoke 78:9

spoken 144:10

spray 122:18

sprays 51:8

Spring 70:5 135:11

Springs 49:7

Sprinkel 68:12 87:4,8

132:9

squash 49:2 50:17

stabilize 129:19

stabilized 119:22

stacks 44:6

staff 2:1 8:8 71:12 84:6

staff's 75:4

stakeholders 12:20

99:12

stand 119:8

standard 9:7 59:15

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standards 1:3 2:3 6:6

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39:13,16,17 52:15

59:13 61:11 67:14

103:6,7,14,18 105:2,6

109:17,18 110:9

116:8

standing 113:7

standpoint 37:18

start 10:8 24:12 35:18

48:16 57:13 64:12

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started 16:19 62:10

109:20 127:18,22

starting 128:22

startled 60:7

state 9:22 19:15,17

24:1 113:14 118:19

statement 7:17 134:16

states 1:1 46:9 49:3

80:14 101:21 111:18

113:5

stating 93:10

statutory 103:8

stay 5:11 34:10 57:21

108:8

stays 29:19

steady 127:21

steel 51:5

steps 20:18

Steve 2:17 3:13 35:11

35:12,17,22 36:2 41:1

41:9 68:12 87:4,5,7,8

87:10,13,18 94:2

132:8

stocker 30:20

stocks 20:3,6

STOKER 2:5

stop 35:21

storage 119:13 120:5

121:5,22 122:1,3,10

124:2,8,9,10,15,18

125:19

store 80:3 101:18

109:11

stored 121:21,22 125:6
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stores 101:19

storing 138:7

Stowe 87:1

strategies 29:10

strategy 94:4 96:7

strawberry 1:15 36:15

36:16,17,19 37:5,8

strength 72:7

strengthen 40:4 75:14

strengthening 30:3

stress 86:13

strictly 65:16 125:15

strong 30:12 52:7 58:13

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strongly 23:2 100:6

structures 51:5

struggle 43:12

struggled 79:15

struggling 81:14

studies 11:22 66:1

stuff 62:18 107:3

stunt 53:9

subcommittee 12:5,9

19:14 36:11 38:1

45:17 74:10 76:15

82:5 83:15 113:15

114:20 116:18

subcommittee's 93:10

subcommittees 57:15

75:5 96:3

subject 114:7 115:1

117:10

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submission 27:20

submit 57:14

submitted 40:15 56:6

67:21 89:9 128:5

131:15 142:18

submitting 127:7

subsequent 32:22

subset 38:21

substances 18:12

59:14 92:20 93:3,7

substantially 71:18

substitute 115:10

succeeding 43:5

success 9:8 116:4

successful 136:3

suddenly 58:4

sufficient 8:5 98:6

113:20 114:2,8,16

sugar 141:5

sugars 119:15,22

suggest 17:4

suggested 15:21

suggestions 13:12

15:14 40:1 104:15

suitable 98:8 99:22

100:5

sulfur 59:5 128:7,12

129:2,11,19 130:1,20

131:11

summarize 69:13 89:11

summary 4:14 99:16

summer 61:5

sun 10:1

sunlight 40:13

sunset 42:2 44:21

58:11 72:9 73:2 84:9

91:8 92:2 93:4 95:9

96:3 103:19 106:19

113:21 116:16 134:19

sunsetting 45:18

superior 31:15 70:10

supervisor 64:8

supplements 21:13

supplied 93:16

suppliers 24:17 25:6

113:1

supply 36:17 105:19

113:2,19 115:20

116:1

supplying 24:13 122:16

support 6:2 13:4 60:9

65:5 66:12 71:19

72:11 81:8 89:13

90:20 92:4 113:15

supported 46:7

supports 65:1 66:4,17

67:2 113:12

supposed 45:11

sure 10:14 17:1 23:1

41:6 48:1 54:8 61:3,9

61:11 79:9 82:9 94:13

100:14 106:4 116:21

117:21 133:14 135:1

surprise 72:15

surprises 75:10

surveyed 20:2

susceptibility 14:3

susceptible 30:17

suspect 127:4

sustainability 18:14,16

20:4 23:9 25:11

sustainable 11:22

19:21 25:4,10 50:12

53:3,15

Swaffar 1:19 10:13

126:19,22 127:8

switched 49:8

synchronizes 63:6

synthetic 44:2,10 64:13

115:6,22 127:4

synthetics 80:19 81:11

syrup 1:13

system 29:15 30:12

46:7 50:13 51:18,19

52:3 66:4 88:5

systems 14:16 25:20

30:4 53:10 67:2

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T-A-B-L-E 3:1

table 68:21 71:21

tactics 64:19

tailings 44:5,6

take 7:1 39:10 43:6

74:18 102:8 103:16

106:6 108:19 110:18

121:11 140:14

taken 34:10 72:15

102:15 103:3,4 120:4

122:2

takes 7:19 121:3,6

125:3

talk 11:11 21:21 36:3

45:6 75:8 77:6 79:7

132:4 133:17 134:3,5

137:2

talked 22:5 140:5

talking 10:14 11:13

25:20 48:16 62:10

64:6 111:21 132:11

TAP 85:11

tartar 128:7

tartrate 128:6

task 53:19 105:5 112:5

taste 116:9

team 16:7

technical 3:2 6:1,2

21:11 45:13 81:2,10

104:9

technologies 38:18

39:2 52:18

technology 2:6 5:5 39:6

50:6 123:5 138:2

teleconference 1:5 3:2

6:10,15 7:4

Telephonic 7:5 13:2

16:17 31:16 60:15

74:20 81:17 96:11

117:5 118:3 126:11

136:12,22 137:3,7,20

138:10 140:15,20

141:10

telephonically 1:10

tell 35:20 47:20,21

76:14 83:17 106:2

temperature 130:8

138:7

temporary 40:9

ten 22:13 27:17 37:5

59:19 128:16 140:16

tends 122:4

tenure 85:12

term 65:14 72:14

test 118:7

testify 40:21

tests 14:13,15 65:8

texture 99:18

TH2 30:14

thank 5:19 6:8 7:1,12

7:13 9:9 11:13,18

12:4 17:11,12 18:2

23:11 25:12 26:15

33:5 35:8,9 40:22

41:8,19 46:18,21 47:7

47:8 48:6,22 53:22

54:1,9,19 55:19 61:18

61:20 62:9 63:9,10

64:9 67:15,16 74:3

76:3 77:1,13 79:9

81:20 82:6 87:2,18

88:21 94:7,8,15

100:11,19 107:18

110:4,6,7,10,18,20

111:1,15,19 116:19

116:22 117:2,11

118:20,22 123:8,9,11

123:18 125:5,22

126:2,4 127:6,7,9

131:13,21 132:1

133:4 134:10 135:19

135:22 136:1,4,8,20

137:1 141:12,13

142:16 143:11,16,17

144:5,16,17

thanks 10:16 35:21

36:1 40:20 62:8 74:4

74:11 82:7 100:8

111:9 124:5 126:3

127:8 142:16

Theojary 2:17 3:16

41:14 47:10,12 48:2

49:1 54:10

Thicke 1:20 10:18

33:16,19 34:8,16 35:8

thing 73:13 88:7 122:15

124:14

things 18:4 19:3 36:4,6

74:7 78:7 79:18 82:11

120:14 124:16 130:10

138:12

think 33:20 34:2,20

42:10 57:18 58:1,15

60:11 74:16 76:16,21

79:11 83:19,21 86:13

86:17,18,19 102:1

106:13 107:1 108:15

109:15 117:8 125:21

126:6 128:2 130:14
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

163

134:4,6 135:8 136:11

144:12,13

thinking 106:10

third 34:16

thorough 8:2

thought 61:12 76:5

106:13 111:5

thoughts 85:9 108:1,9

109:19

thousand 5:9 121:11

137:22

thousands 57:3

three 18:13 20:21 23:22

27:22 28:10 33:19

57:15 69:6 76:7

103:18,22 109:8

134:17 137:22

thriving 50:12

time 18:11 20:10 27:10

29:8 30:1 33:21 46:14

47:8 48:8,22 53:22

67:15 68:13,20 69:13

71:7,8,9,12 72:7

76:13 79:12 81:2

83:13,19 85:15 96:20

97:13 98:1 99:13

102:4,4,11 103:3

110:3,18,21 119:3

121:3 128:20 134:11

135:10,21 138:6

144:7

time's 126:7

times 21:7 27:1,17

29:12 50:11 51:22

64:21 81:4 105:14

111:5 128:13 143:2

timing 14:2

tissue 34:6

today 5:5 7:3 9:22

10:10 26:21 42:1,11

44:8 69:12 74:13 82:8

82:13 85:10 95:20

96:5 98:8 100:1 103:2

119:3 123:6 136:6

137:2 142:5

today's 6:9 7:3 46:17

told 105:14

tolerance 21:19

Tom 1:17 23:15,15,18

23:19,21 24:6

tomatoes 49:2 51:9,17

tool 98:3,10 122:21

126:1

tools 64:22 66:14,18

91:20

top 66:20 67:13 132:5

topic 67:12

topics 12:19 18:14

36:12 89:10 94:6

total 96:9,16

totally 27:21 96:15

touch 18:11 118:12

tough 76:15 134:18

town 101:11 135:18

TR 83:12,16 86:14

trace 30:10

Tracy 1:14 10:19 74:8

74:10 82:1,4 85:6

107:12 108:3

Trade 12:22 99:13

traditional 137:15

141:5

traditionally 19:1 137:8

training 56:18 84:17

transit 122:10

transparency 81:6,13

82:20 84:14 86:12

104:22 107:6

transparently 71:5

transplants 36:17,20

transport 58:18

Transportation 71:10

transported 42:22

trapped 119:14

traveling 14:6

treated 30:21 31:3,4,6

31:10

treatment 28:6,11

treatments 14:14

tremendous 65:10

trial 30:21 32:1,15

tried 43:3 108:8 142:19

142:20 143:1,2,3,3

triggers 120:20

trim 98:15

trip 57:22

TRs 81:15 83:13,14

85:3,10 104:10 106:8

true 23:7 69:2 144:8

truly 20:15 53:14

trust 102:18

trusted 71:21

try 88:8 95:3 135:17

trying 25:22 75:3 76:14

78:5 84:1 90:6 103:16

134:8,21 135:1

Tucker 2:6 3:3 5:3,4

9:14,17 16:18 23:15

23:18 25:22 31:20

32:3,10 33:14 35:17

41:4 47:4 48:16 55:4

64:3 87:10 88:3 94:21

95:2 117:19 118:6,12

126:14,20 132:17,22

133:9,21 136:11,13

136:15 144:8,12,17

TUESDAY 1:7

tuna 19:4

turn 5:14 6:7 7:8 9:10

63:16 68:5 107:11

132:2 135:20

turned 18:20

turnout 134:13

turns 83:16

two 20:21 22:21 28:21

36:12 38:10 56:22

103:15 108:15 109:9

115:15 123:19

two-thirds 73:3,4

type 27:8

types 78:12

U

U.S 21:6 24:9 37:4,6

44:7 46:10 57:9 59:17

69:19 130:12

ultimately 8:3 81:9

84:22

ultraviolet 38:22

UN's 37:3

unable 29:13

unanimously 45:18

unavailable 122:8

unbiased 102:19,22

uncontrolled 45:7

139:7

uncover 97:18

undergoes 20:18 125:2

underlining 76:17

understand 53:2 80:20

92:10 95:18 111:3

119:16 140:12

understanding 62:21

64:16 85:18,22

undertaken 78:13

underwent 79:13

undesirable 70:20

140:9

undue 103:10

unfortunate 81:5

Unfortunately 39:22

77:6

uniform 8:20

uninformed 20:15 23:5

Union 73:15

united 1:1 49:3 65:12

80:14 97:13 101:21

111:17 113:5

University 1:21 13:18

15:4

unmute 5:16

unmuted 9:18 133:21

unnecessary 29:7

unprecedented 9:1

70:18

unstable 139:8

unsubstantiated 20:12

untreated 15:20 30:22

31:3

up-to-date 11:22

upstate 101:10

urge 100:6

urged 73:11

urges 116:14

urging 36:12 38:8

usage 113:12

USDA 2:5 6:22 7:9,14

7:18,19 8:12,19,21

9:4 38:8,10 69:19

70:14,18 71:19 79:14

110:8

USDA's 8:8,15 9:6

use 13:21 14:16 16:11

34:11,18,22 37:3,8

38:3,13,15 43:7,17

44:2 45:20 46:3 50:18

52:4,17 58:4 59:20

63:5 65:13,17 66:14

73:20 89:21 90:11,18

91:21 92:22 95:14

96:17 98:11,14 99:7

100:7 105:3,3 113:6

121:4 122:17 123:7

125:5,15,19 128:13

128:19 130:9,15,17

131:10 138:1

useful 117:9 131:17

users 112:22

uses 21:7 63:4

usually 57:18 127:2

128:16

utilization 98:18

utilize 64:16 81:12

115:9,14,21 116:1

utilizing 96:15

UV 39:2

UVB 38:22

V

vaccine 30:9

vaccines 30:16 61:7,8

61:15 66:21

Val 2:18 3:19 55:15

63:11,11,12 64:7

67:17

valid 66:7 91:1

validate 91:16 92:14

Valley 101:13

valleys 50:9

value 42:8 43:14 65:11

value-added 18:21

valued 9:3
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values 8:12

vanilla 112:13

variability 139:13

variation 28:3

varietal 14:3

varieties 14:15

variety 18:8 91:13

113:6,10

vary 139:11

veal 34:6

vegetable 98:4 99:10

vegetables 50:1,4

97:18 98:22 101:17

137:11

vera 28:15

verify 90:2 97:21

Vermont 9:22 10:5

26:18 56:4 94:3

135:17 136:8 143:20

144:15

version 5:10 73:19

76:14 79:1

versions 76:8

versus 40:18

verticillium 51:21

veterinarian 26:8,17

34:21 35:4 65:9

veterinarian's 34:19

viability 43:16

viable 51:15 97:5

Vice 1:14 48:3 102:13

112:5,6

Victoria 2:18 4:7 101:2

111:10,11 112:3

117:3,11

view 19:19

viewed 40:13

views 77:15

vigor 14:1

Vineyards 2:10 55:3,9

127:16

Virginia 112:11,11,12

virtual 103:21

virtually 51:7 52:19

visited 61:4

vital 30:8 70:13

VitalFarms 1:19

voice 56:15 70:12 80:11

voiced 84:12

volume 63:17

volunteer 69:2,21

vote 73:3,5

voted 45:17

votes 71:2

voting 106:19 107:9

117:10

W

waded 85:15

waiting 29:22

WALDEN 2:7

Walker 1:21 10:13,17

94:2

want 7:1 11:17 12:4,21

15:16 17:1,4 18:10,13

32:10,12 50:2 68:17

73:9 75:18 79:11

82:15,20 83:10 99:7

106:6 108:5 111:18

111:19 123:4,8 128:9

129:9,10 130:19

135:14 136:4

wanted 38:4,12 45:6

57:13 59:7 60:13 61:3

75:20 79:8 95:7,8

104:5 107:13 110:18

119:17 133:20

wanting 78:1 88:1

wants 20:8 108:19

134:4

warehouse 125:15,19

warrant 113:20

washing 138:7

Washington 13:18 36:5

40:1 62:7 112:21

wastage 122:7,7

waste 44:12 122:11

wasting 122:9

water 32:22 42:13 46:4

46:16 52:3 120:6

138:21 140:5,6,7

waters 24:18

watershed 42:14 46:9

waves 19:9

way 45:1 50:12 52:8

56:4 63:8 66:9 81:7

109:21 127:2

we'll 33:11 88:6 100:22

106:22 107:3 134:3

we're 10:15 12:21 14:20

15:1,4 18:7 37:22

48:4 56:10 68:7 91:14

94:21 106:17,19

110:8 111:3 116:21

127:22 128:22 130:11

130:13 134:8 135:1,3

136:11 143:7 144:13

we've 5:11 12:20 14:5

25:22 34:4 39:9,22

41:10,12 56:6 86:18

86:20 93:1 106:8,9

107:20 108:15 109:8

128:22 130:7 133:19

134:12 136:3 137:21

weak 129:5

weather 45:2

web 49:20 58:1 134:12

web-based 56:2

webinar 119:4,19

134:14 136:3

webinars 135:6

week 7:7 10:5 33:11

136:7 144:15

weekly 20:22

weevil 51:1

welcome 3:4 6:7,9,10

7:9 10:6

welfare 39:13,16,17

66:19 67:10,13

109:17 110:9

went 76:16 144:20

west 82:12 119:5

white 131:3

wholeheartedly 102:16

105:16

Wholesum 48:3

wide 18:8 20:3 56:21

113:6,9

widely 65:3

wife 101:17

wild 82:12

willing 83:5

WILSON 2:7

window 124:8,9

wine 127:15,17,18,18

128:9,19 129:9,19

130:2,3,7,16,18 131:2

131:3,10

wine's 128:1

wines 130:9 131:3,12

wing 84:3

wish 144:6,14

withhold 28:1 29:4

withholding 27:1,10

29:8,12 30:1 33:21

wonder 59:1

wonderful 126:1

words 86:5 106:19

work 6:13 29:10 36:6

38:7 48:3 52:20 64:9

65:18 71:3 74:17,18

75:6,11,15 78:6,12

79:18 80:8 81:3 87:2

93:19 94:5 96:2,20

97:4 104:14,22

110:12,17,22 111:20

112:1 116:14 120:17

128:2 132:5 143:5

worked 68:19 72:1 78:5

80:6,13 122:17 130:7

137:10

workers 49:19

working 13:3 16:7

29:16 36:5 72:3 79:13

81:14 84:6 97:6 99:8

100:4 109:20 112:11

112:16 113:8

works 75:22

world 19:6,15 57:12

135:3

world's 20:14

worse 67:9

worst 79:22

worth 61:13

wouldn't 75:10 124:19

wrap 16:21,22 22:5

85:8

wrapping 134:9

write 104:9

writers 103:6

writing 60:18 133:14

written 17:16 24:1 27:9

33:4 34:4 39:8 55:8

56:7,8 61:18 67:20

68:1 86:19 94:12

100:14 110:17 128:5

131:15 142:17

wrong 133:18

wrote 59:9 60:2

X

Y

year 8:1 52:22 69:10

101:15

year's 13:12 15:14

year-round 52:20

years 13:14 19:9 24:6

26:17,20 37:6 49:6

50:11 69:15,18 70:10

77:18 80:7 85:16 93:1

96:9 99:7 100:3 102:6

102:10 108:16 109:9

112:12,17 116:6

119:11 124:21 127:16

137:22 140:16

yeast 92:21 129:4,5,16

York 101:11 108:14

Z

Zea 1:18 10:19 126:10

126:20 127:6,9

zero 27:10 34:1

Zirkle 1:14

zones 19:18

0

1

1-MCP 119:7,14,21

120:6 121:13,17

124:7,7
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1,600 89:3

1.67 27:15

1:00 1:10 5:2

100 50:10 130:11

101 4:6

10th 72:6

11 3:8

111 4:7

118 4:9

127 4:10

12th 73:19

13 32:2 72:21

131 4:12

134 4:15

135 4:16

136 4:19

13th 31:17 32:4

14 27:22 34:2 104:4

134:21 135:9

141 4:21

14th 32:5

15 119:11 124:21

150 89:4

16 112:12

18 3:10 27:12

1909 112:20

1990 127:19

1994 127:19

19th 128:14

2

2 34:8

2.9 21:16

20 1:7 101:15

200 59:20

2001 27:9,19 77:17

2002 9:5

2005 37:4

2006 77:18 92:17

2008 69:2 70:5 71:17

2010 52:16 79:2

2013 69:2 72:15

2014 14:10 15:1

2015 1:7

2017 91:8 92:1 95:16

96:3,19 100:8

205.605(a) 113:13,17

113:21 114:6,12,22

115:6,17

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3:9

24 27:13

25(b) 89:16 90:10

250 9:5

26 3:11

260 88:3

267 133:1

27 69:18 127:16

27th 95:16

28 100:3

29 33:8

3

3 133:9 141:14

3:24 144:20

30 96:5 101:15 128:17

31 21:12

33 80:7

35 28:13 128:1,2

350 130:13

355 30:20

36 3:13 134:11

4

40 11:4 26:20

400,000 127:22

41 3:15

47 3:16

5

5 3:3 141:19

5,700 89:8

5:00 141:17,18

5:20 141:16

55 3:18

58 134:12

59.4 121:13

6

6 3:4 21:17

60 10:1 31:5 96:15

601 90:20

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63 3:19

65 28:14 29:2

68 3:21 11:5 57:8

7

7 3:5

700 89:3

7202 5:9

7500 121:12

77 4:1

8

80 52:4

85 49:6

88 4:3

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

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C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

166

Comment Teleconference

National Organic Standards Board

10-20-15

teleconference
1 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

FALL 2015 MEETING

+ + + + +

MONDAY

OCTOBER 26, 2015

+ + + + +

The Board met in the Pinnacle Room of 

the Stoweflake Conference Center, Stowe, Vermont, 

at 9:00 a.m., Jean Richardson, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT: 

JEAN RICHARDSON, Chair

TRACY FAVRE, Vice Chair

HAROLD AUSTIN, Secretary (via Skype)

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR BONDERA

TOM CHAPMAN

LISA DE LIMA

NICK MARAVELL

ZEA SONNABEND

ROBERT "MAC" STONE

ASHLEY SWAFFAR

JENNIFER TAYLOR

FRANCIS THICKE

C. REUBEN WALKER
2 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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ALSO PRESENT: 

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board Specialist, 

National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, National List Manager, National 

Organic Program

EMILY BROWN ROSEN, Agricultural Marketing 

Specialist, National Organic Program

PAUL LEWIS, Director, Standards Division, 

National Organic Program, USDA

SAM JONES, AMS Public Affairs Specialist

MILES MEVOY, Designated Federal Officer, 

Deputy Administrator, National Organic 

Program
3 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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CONTENTS

Call to Order, Agenda Overview

Miles McEvoy............................. 4 

Introductions

Dr. Jean Richardson...................... 4 

Welcome to Vermont

Secretary Chuck Ross.................... 27

Senator Patrick Leahy................... 41

Secretary's Report, Acceptance of

April 2015 Meeting Summary and 

Outcome as Official Record

Harold Austin........................... 45

National Organic Program Report

Miles McEvoy............................ 46

NOSB Report

Dr. Jean Richardson..................... 85

National Organic Program - Materials

Update/Summary of New and Outstanding

Petitions

Dr. Lisa Brines......................... 97

National Institute of Food and

Agriculture (NIFA) Presentation

Dr. Sonny Ramaswamy.................... 108

Public Comments

Dr. Jean Richardson.................... 140

Recess
4 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:06 a.m.

3 MR. MCEVOY: Okay, I think we are 

4 ready.

5 So, good morning. Welcome to Vermont. 

6 It is such a beautiful day out there. Yes, we are 

7 going to have a great day in here but it is a 

8 beautiful day outside. At mid-day, there is going 

9 to be a nice demonstration out in the parking lot 

10 at one o'clock. So, at least we get outside and 

11 outdoor access for a little while today.

12 So, looking forward to the Fall 2015 

13 National Organic Standards Board Meeting. Lots of 

14 good discussion, good input from all the public and 

15 the public comments this afternoon and tomorrow. 

16 So, at this point, I open the Fall 2015 

17 National Organic Standards Board Meeting and turn 

18 it over to the Chair, Jean Richardson, to run the 

19 meeting from this point forward.

20 Thanks.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Good morning, 

22 everybody. It is really great to be here. The sun 
5 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 is shining, just as I planned. Today and tomorrow 

2 should be perfect. Snow isn't forecast until a 

3 little bit later. I know it is tough on some of 

4 you from out of state but I do have extra jackets, 

5 if you need any.

6 First, the agenda. There is a slight 

7 change to the agenda, not in content, but we are 

8 simply moving some of the material discussions that 

9 relate to annotation changes from the Crops 

10 Subcommittee and the Handling Subcommittee to be 

11 dealt with on Thursday, instead of tomorrow or 

12 Wednesday.

13 I'm getting an echo. Does everybody 

14 hear the echo? No, you are not getting an echo back 

15 there? Is it okay? It's okay, good.

16 So, those are just minor changes to the 

17 agenda, in terms of moving some of the discussion 

18 on annotations. Is there any objections to that 

19 from the NOSB board members? 

20 Seeing no objections, we move then to 

21 the beginning of the introductions. You will 

22 notice that Zea Sonnabend is not yet here. Her 
6 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 seat is up here next to Colehour Bondera. Her 

2 plane is delayed. Actually, I think it was 

3 canceled. She is stuck in Philadelphia but should 

4 be here soon.

5 And then in terms of one of our members, 

6 Harold Austin, as you know, fell at the NOSB meeting 

7 in La Jolla at the last meeting and is still under 

8 extremely serious healthcare, physical therapy and 

9 so forth and is unable to travel anywhere, even for 

10 just a few hours. So, unfortunately, he will have 

11 to participate by phone and by video. And we think 

12 we have the whole thing set up so that it will work 

13 all right.

14 And I am aware of the fact that at least 

15 one of our board members has some concerns about 

16 the process of involving a board member by virtual 

17 presence rather than actual physical presence. I 

18 know that our hearts go out to Harold as he goes 

19 through his horrendous recovery. I'm hoping to 

20 see him next April.

21 But I would like to ask Colehour if you 

22 would make the comment that you would like to make 
7 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 in regards to participation by virtual presence.

2 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. And 

3 Harold, I hope it is more than a painful recovery; 

4 I hope it is a successful recovery.

5 Really, with all due respect, I really 

6 think it is important to be clear that, like Jean 

7 suggested, we are not all on the same page regarding 

8 procedure of remote participation in an NOSB 

9 meeting. Really, this is about participation, 

10 including voting and I think it is good to state 

11 this from the beginning of our time together.

12 Harold Austin cannot be here in person. 

13 Six years ago, I believe, NOSB member, Kevin 

14 Englebert, could not be at a meeting and he was not 

15 permitted to participate remotely. 

16 I think change happens and we almost 

17 roll with it but with no policy in place to permit 

18 remote participation, we must work from where we 

19 are now. And for me, it is vital that we are all 

20 on the same page, we are all treated with respect 

21 and equality. We are all different, all of us 

22 around this table. We must be provided with the 
8 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

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1 neutrality that allows us to all be together so that 

2 we can work together with commonality.

3 And the action that is being permitted 

4 with no policy or procedure in place, even though 

5 there is draft verbiage in the PPM that is put 

6 forth, it hasn't been fully reviewed or voted on 

7 and it is not permitted in Robert's Rules. 

8 I put it forth at the La Jolla meeting, 

9 when I called a point of order when Harold had just 

10 been injured that in Robert's Rules it says, in the 

11 Eleventh Edition on page 423 regarding voting, it 

12 is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law 

13 that the right to vote is limited to the members 

14 of an organization who are actually present at the 

15 time that the vote is taken in a regular or properly 

16 called meeting, although it should be noted that 

17 a member need not be present when the question is 

18 put. Exceptions to this rule must be expressly 

19 stated in the bylaws.

20 And it is my request that our Chair, and 

21 perhaps others, make a comment as to why and how 

22 it was concluded that such a choice for Harold's 
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1 participation in the meeting is logical and 

2 justified, given the efforts to be sure that said 

3 needs are a part of the public understanding and 

4 transparency and not simply facilitated in 

5 reaction to something that has come up. Remember, 

6 Organics is more than just reaction. It has to be 

7 about integrity and definition and understanding 

8 that is equal and comment and we must have common 

9 -- we must have organic policies in place that are 

10 not reactions to problems that come up and, 

11 instead, are a foundation block to be built upon. 

12 And I think, from my perspective, that is vital. 

13 So, thank you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The Chair's 

15 response to this is that indeed we are not actually 

16 bound by Robert's Rules of Order at this meeting. 

17 They are adopted as guidelines for the NOSB. We 

18 are, however, bound by FACA rules and FACA does not 

19 prohibit remote attendance. In fact, it allows 

20 for virtual public meetings and this is seen in 

21 many, many, I can't remember how many, but about 

22 80 or 90 of the FACA Federal Advisory Committees.
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1 And I believe it is my interpretation 

2 that the NOSB Policy and Procedure Manual does not 

3 preclude virtual attendance and participation. 

4 So, all we really need to do with this, and remember 

5 at the last meeting we did get advice from the 

6 Office of General Counsel, that all we need to do 

7 is to make sure that when, at the time to introduce 

8 our member, Harold Austin, in Washington, and to 

9 make sure that his comment--he can comment as 

10 appropriate meeting, ask questions as needed, and 

11 that his vote, if we do a hand vote, which we may 

12 well be doing for many of our votes, that his hand 

13 vote is also recorded. Obviously, right now, we 

14 can physically see Harold but who knows exactly how 

15 this system will work.

16 I know it is an unusual situation but 

17 I believe in compassion over process on something 

18 like this. And I believe it is really important 

19 that we allow every member to participate, if they 

20 can. And we all know how incredibly hard Harold 

21 works, putting in many hours a week in order to 

22 attend to all of his NOSB duties, even through the 
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1 last year since his injury.

2 I believe that Nick Maravell wishes to 

3 make a brief comment.

4 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, thank you, 

5 Jean.

6 I just would like to share my thoughts 

7 with the Board on this type of a policy. I think 

8 it is fully appropriate that if a board member makes 

9 a good faith effort to come to a meeting but cannot, 

10 for reasons beyond his or her control, as in the 

11 case of Harold, that we should accommodate that 

12 board member. 

13 And, for example, Zea can't be here 

14 right now for reasons beyond her control. She 

15 could conference in, as well, but she is making a 

16 good faith effort to get here.

17 I am just a little concerned that the 

18 policy not be attendance is optional at these 

19 meetings--attendance in person is optional. I 

20 think it is important for the organic community 

21 that the members do be here, if it is at all possible 

22 for them to be here. Otherwise, I would be in my 
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1 combine seat right now, plugged in with a little 

2 earphone saying okay, let her rip because I have 

3 work to do back there. But I also have a 

4 responsibility to the organic community and I take 

5 that seriously.

6 So, I guess what I am saying is is there 

7 some way to accommodate that intention, if the 

8 Board were to agree? We could have a policy that 

9 this entire meeting would be a virtual meeting, et 

10 cetera. But if we establish policy, can we 

11 establish it with the understanding that 

12 attendance is not optional but, indeed, a good 

13 faith effort that needs to be made and we will 

14 accommodate conditions beyond the control of the 

15 board meeting.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Nick. 

17 The Policy and Procedures Subcommittee will be 

18 reviewing both this issue and also the issue of 

19 virtual webinars for public comment, when they 

20 return to their work following this meeting.

21 I would like to turn now to the 

22 introductions of the individual board members and 
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1 I am going to start with you, Mac, down there. If 

2 you would each just say very briefly who you are 

3 and where you are from.

4 MEMBER STONE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

5 Mac Stone. I am a certified organic 

6 farmer in Kentucky. We have a diverse vegetable, 

7 meat, chicken, turkeys. The turkeys are beautiful 

8 this year. We hatch our own Heritage turkeys. 

9 And thankfully, we got a positive recommendation 

10 from Cooks Illustrated magazine last year. So, we 

11 doubled our production and they are all off and 

12 running and doing real well. So that is a lot of 

13 fun. They are a really fun creature to raise.

14 I represent certifiers on this Board 

15 and I want to thank the certifiers for their help 

16 in educating me and helping me understand the 

17 nuance of the rule in the work that we do. It is 

18 very different on this side of the microphone than 

19 it is on the other side of the microphone. 

20 And lastly, I want to give a shout out 

21 to the certifiers for all the due diligence and hard 

22 work and integrity that they bring to the organic 
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1 seal.

2 MEMBER WALKER: I would do like Jay 

3 Freedman told me my first meeting, Madam Chair, I 

4 would like to move for enjoyment. Just kidding.

5 My name is Calvin Reuben Walker. I 

6 serve as the Consumer Public Interest Advocate. 

7 This is my last board meeting and I am very happy. 

8 I am 99 percent happy to be leaving. I believe that 

9 I helped make a difference. And I certainly would 

10 like to thank AMS and Miles McEvoy for selecting 

11 me as one of those bullet members. At another 

12 point in time, during a drink, I would tell you why 

13 I did not think that I would be selected. But I 

14 am definitely grateful of Miles McEvoy and AMS for 

15 selecting me. It has been a learning experience.

16 I represent the group public interest, 

17 consumer advocates, and I have always tried to be 

18 a little bit more pragmatic in my voting. The 

19 consumer group, as you know, is the most vocal and, 

20 to me, the most adamant group and I am proud to have 

21 said that I have served. And I have tried to serve 

22 somewhat the best that I could.
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1 MR. MCEVOY: Thanks, Calvin, but it is 

2 not me that selected you. It was Secretary Vilsack 

3 that selected you to serve on this Board. So, 

4 thank you for your service.

5 MEMBER DE LIMA: Hi, I'm Lisa de Lima. 

6 I serve in the retailer's seat. This is my first 

7 year on the Board. I work at MOM's Organic Market. 

8 I have been there for the last 17 years. We are 

9 an independent retailer in Maryland and Virginia.

10 MEMBER BONDERA: Hello. My name is 

11 Colehour Bondera. I am here from Hawaii, where I 

12 live with my family as a farmer. I sit in a 

13 producer seat and this is my final meeting of five 

14 years.

15 And I think besides my jetlaggedness 

16 that I encountered from traveling here this trip, 

17 since it is my final meeting, I just want to comment 

18 that I will probably be sure during this meeting 

19 that I lay everything on the table that I want to 

20 get out there.

21 As a small-scale farmer, I just want to 

22 say it is not easy for small-scale producers to even 
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1 be able to be certified organic and in recognition 

2 that most farmers in the world are small-scale 

3 farmers. And I really want to uphold the basics 

4 of organics, in terms of definition.

5 Like my mother says, and most people 

6 know, everything is organic. So, what must happen 

7 is upholding the integrity of the basics that have 

8 brought us altogether here. And I think it is 

9 critical. Aloha.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: My name is Tom 

11 Chapman. I am a senior sourcing manager for Clif 

12 Bar & Company and I sit here representing organic 

13 handling companies. Before Clif Bar, I worked for 

14 Numi Organic Tea in organic certification.

15 This is my first year on the NOSB and

16 I also chair the Handling Subcommittee.

17 I'm not much into genealogy but my 

18 father is and he tells me that I'm a distant 

19 relative to Ethan Allen. So, I consider myself at 

20 home here in Vermont.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Good morning. I'm 

22 Tracy Favre and I serve in one of the 
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1 environmentalist seats on the Board. I am 

2 currently Board Vice Chair, Chair of the Livestock 

3 and Policy Development Subcommittees and sit on the 

4 Handling Committee.

5 My husband and I have a small 

6 diversified farm in Granbury, Texas with 

7 pasture-raised sheep and free-range poultry, nuts 

8 and fruit orchards, bees, and a market garden.

9 I have a bachelor's of science in 

10 petroleum engineering from Texas A & M University 

11 but I only worked for ten months in the oil field. 

12 I spent almost 20 years as an environmental 

13 watershed engineer, working with clients on Clean 

14 Water Act compliance issues. I am a registered 

15 professional engineer in the State of Texas in 

16 civil engineering.

17 I have a master's of science degree in 

18 sustainable development, with emphasis in 

19 agriculture from the University of London.

20 I worked for four years for Holistic 

21 Management International training farmers and 

22 ranchers in sustainable land management, 
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1 eventually ending up as their Chief Operating 

2 Officer. I am currently an organic inspector, 

3 doing livestock crop and handling inspections. And 

4 additionally, I have completed IOIA training in 

5 livestock processing and HACCP.

6 Oh, and I almost forgot. I help my 

7 husband on his small manufacturer's rep business 

8 doing invoicing and web updates and that is in the 

9 electronics manufacturing industry. So, a lot of 

10 stuff.

11 Usually, I don't go into so much detail 

12 but, recently, a group published information about 

13 my background and work experience. And I can't 

14 believe that they would intentionally misrepresent 

15 or misconstrue my background, bless their hearts. 

16 I wanted to make sure that they had the full 

17 information, since they may not have done their 

18 full due diligence and I wanted to make sure that 

19 was in the public record.

20 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Hi, my name is Ashley 

21 Swaffar. I am the Director of Policy and Planning 

22 for Vital Farms. Vital Farms produces only 
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1 pasteurized eggs. And then I also own a small 

2 certified mixed vegetable farm in Arkansas.

3 MEMBER BECK: Good morning. My name 

4 is Carmela Beck. I work for Driscoll's Strawberry 

5 Associates. We are based out of Watsonville, 

6 California. I am the Organic Program Manager. I 

7 have been there for eight years.

8 I have spent the last eight years 

9 working with organic farmers, both small, medium, 

10 and large, to maintain and gain their organic 

11 certification. So, it is a pleasure to be with you 

12 all here today. And I sit in the producer's seat.

13 MEMBER TAYLOR: Good morning and 

14 welcome. My name is Jennifer Taylor and I am the 

15 granddaughter and daughter of a sharecropper. 

16 At Florida A&M University, I developed 

17 our state-wide Small Farm Program that provides 

18 education, hands-on training, and technical 

19 assistance in the areas of sustainable 

20 development, focusing on organic production and 

21 management strategies, transitioning to organics.

22 I grow ecology farm systems, food 
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1 sovereignty, sustainable food system development 

2 for underserved farming populations and their 

3 communities. 

4 As the member of the National Organic 

5 Standards Board, our role is advocate for the 

6 organic consumer, advocate for the organic 

7 communities, and public interest.

8 Thank you.

9 MEMBER MARAVELL: My name is Nick 

10 Maravell. I am a producer rep here on the Board. 

11 We started organic production in 1979, 

12 commercially, all in produce. We are in the State 

13 of Maryland and now we are crops and livestock.

14 MEMBER THICKE: I'm Francis Thicke. 

15 I'm from Iowa, where you can hardly swing a corn 

16 stalk without hitting somebody running for 

17 President. And I have an organic dairy farm there, 

18 grass-based and we milk about 90 cows and we process 

19 our milk all on the farm into bottled milk, yogurt, 

20 and cheese, and we sell it all locally within a 

21 five-mile radius.

22 And I am on one of the environmental 
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1 seats.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold.

3 MEMBER AUSTIN: Good morning. My name 

4 is Harold. I am the Director of Orchard 

5 Administration for Zirkle Fruit Company, a fourth 

6 generation fruit business located in Selah, 

7 Washington. We grow, pack, and ship organic 

8 apples, pears, cherries, blueberries, and wine 

9 drippings.

10 I have been involved in agriculture for 

11 my entire life. I currently serve as the NOSB 

12 Secretary and I sit on two handling positions on 

13 the Board. I also sit on the Handling, Crops, and 

14 Materials Subcommittees, as well as the Executive 

15 Committee.

16 I would like to thank all of you that 

17 lended your good wishes, brought all the bags of 

18 goodies when I broke my femur during the spring 

19 meeting. You made me help to appreciate why I am 

20 here, why I am so proud of our organic family and 

21 our organic community.

22 Thank you all for well wishes and thank 
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1 you for allowing me to participate. Thank you.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Harold.

3 And I'm Jean Richardson. My Ph.D. is 

4 in biogeography. I have a background in the 

5 biological and earth sciences, soils, ecology, and 

6 post-doctoral training in law; professor emerita, 

7 University of Vermont, where I taught 

8 environmental studies and environmental law, and 

9 did research in dioxin contamination of milk and 

10 dairy feed on both organic and nonorganic farms as 

11 one of my pieces of research.

12 And then a piece of trivia about me; I 

13 was the first girl to do the weather live on evening 

14 television in Britain.

15 Last but not least, I would like to ask 

16 Michelle if she would please introduce herself. 

17 Are you going to do that? Okay.

18 MR. MCEVOY: Okay, good morning. I'm 

19 Miles McEvoy. I am the deputy Administrator of the 

20 Agricultural Marketing Services National Organic 

21 Program. I have been there for six years. It has 

22 been an amazing experience to represent and work 
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1 to protect organic integrity.

2 So, a little piece of trivia about 

3 myself is I also worked in the oil industry when 

4 I was a young man. I worked on offshore oil rigs 

5 off of Louisiana, just one of those itinerant jobs 

6 as I was traveling around. And after that, I 

7 worked in the orchards and reforestation, and let's 

8 see, a salmon fishery up in Alaska. So, I did that 

9 for a long time before getting my master's in 

10 entomology and coming back to Washington State and 

11 running the Washington State Department of 

12 Agriculture's Organic Certification Program for 20 

13 years or so before coming to USDA.

14 So, it has been a great ride, a great 

15 time to work with organic farms and the organic 

16 industry all around the world, really. And I want 

17 to also introduce the staff from USDA that are here.

18 So, first of all, Michelle Arsenault, 

19 who is the one that really makes this happen. She 

20 has a lot of support to make this happen but she 

21 is the one that actually does all the logistics and 

22 handles all the things that make this come 
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1 together. So, Michelle, you do an amazing job and 

2 thank you so much for making this happen.

3 I would also like to introduce Dr. Paul 

4 Lewis at the table back on the side here, side of 

5 the room. Dr. Paul Lewis comes from EPA. He is 

6 the new Standards Director for the National Organic 

7 Program. He has been with the program since June 

8 of this year. So, be easy on him but he is a quick 

9 learner and he is doing amazing things already. 

10 So, welcome, Paul, to the National Organic 

11 Standards Board and this meeting.

12 I also have Dr. Lisa Brines, who is the 

13 National List Manager. A lot of you know her and 

14 her work that she does to support the work of the 

15 Board. So, Dr. Lisa Brines.

16 And then we have Emily Brown Rosen here, 

17 at the front table, who is also one of the main 

18 technical support staffs that supports the 

19 subcommittees and the work of the Board.

20 And then somewhere in the back of the 

21 room we have Sam Jones from AMS Public Affairs. 

22 So, if any media are here, he is the one to contact. 
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1 I understand we will have some TV coverage here 

2 today at some point. So, that completes the USDA 

3 staff that are here. Thanks.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Miles. 

5 And, let's see. Next I will introduce 

6 Chuck Ross.

7 Let me just say a few words about our 

8 wonderful Vermont Secretary of Agriculture. 

9 Chuck Ross has a BA from the University of Vermont, 

10 a great little university. I think, Lisa, isn't 

11 your degree from there, too? Yes. And an MA from 

12 the University of Washington.

13 And he was the State Director to Senator 

14 Leahy for 16 years. So, he really understands how 

15 the political system works in its wonderful 

16 complexity. He is an absolutely excellent 

17 Secretary of Agriculture. I have been in Vermont 

18 for 40 years and we have never had such a great 

19 Secretary of Agriculture, in large part, because 

20 he really does understand the contexts of all the 

21 interactions of agriculture from a much broader 

22 perspective than, perhaps, his usual Secretaries 
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1 of Agriculture.

2 So, he has a very balanced approach and 

3 he has always been very supportive of organic 

4 agriculture, local agriculture, and expanding 

5 value-added in markets, both nationally and 

6 internationally.

7 A trivia piece about Chuck is that he 

8 is a great ice hockey player.

9 So, it is with great pleasure that I 

10 would introduce you to our Secretary of 

11 Agriculture, Chuck Ross.

12 SECRETARY ROSS: Thanks, Jean. I love 

13 being introduced as a great ice hockey player 

14 because if it is true in your mind, then it is true 

15 in my mind. Just last night I played again, as I 

16 do, and now I get to play with my 15-year-old son 

17 and I am proud to say he aced me last night. He 

18 skated around me past the front of the net and they 

19 scored and I was playing defense. So, oh, well.

20 So, I feel like I have a split audience 

21 so let me just pardon myself for having my back 

22 largely turned to most of you who -- can I just see 
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1 the hand of everybody who considers yourself a 

2 Vermonter? It is interesting to know. Thank you 

3 for being here. So, I will try to kind of address 

4 everyone here.

5 Thank you for the invitation to come 

6 speak to you and I want to thank Miles and your boss, 

7 Tom Vilsack, and the support of the EOCA and, most 

8 importantly, I want to also recognize an important 

9 Vermonter, who is involved in the organic 

10 agriculture and that is Enid Wonnacott, who has 

11 been our voice right over here for years. I think 

12 it is fair to say Vermont organic agriculture would 

13 not be where it is but for Enid's long and very 

14 important stewardship of that part of our 

15 agriculture industry here.

16 But I mostly want to thank all of you 

17 on the NOSB for coming to Vermont and bringing your 

18 meeting here. Jean, particularly for you, I have 

19 an idea that when you are a chair you get to have 

20 a little influence about where some things happen. 

21 So, that is great to have you and all of you come 

22 to Vermont at this time of year.
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1 And it is a wonderful time of year but 

2 I think it is also really important to recognize 

3 that coming to Vermont makes some sense. I think 

4 from the organic background, having this Board and 

5 the work you do and what you represent is so 

6 critically important. As I understand it, you get 

7 paid really big dollars for the work you do and that 

8 you put in untold hours, you do really critical 

9 thinking, and are a really important voice for a 

10 very important industry in Vermont.

11 Jean, thank you for the work you do as 

12 its Chair. I guess I will return the compliments, 

13 in part. Leadership is critical, I believe, in the 

14 field of agriculture but it is certainly critical 

15 on the Board. It is important to have a balanced 

16 and reasoned point of view and a welcoming of other 

17 voices and input. And I appreciate your effort to 

18 do that. I have been in public service off and on 

19 for most of my life and my father was a public 

20 servant as well. And there is nothing more 

21 refreshing than someone who is willing to listen 

22 to differing points of view in this world of 
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1 politics, of which I will suggest, given the events 

2 of today, both now and in the future, there is going 

3 to be a little bit of politics, a little divergent 

4 voices. And you know what? That is really good 

5 and I commend all of you for listening.

6 A couple of comments I would like to 

7 make. First of all, I think this whole organic 

8 movement, this effort, is an example of, speaking 

9 of politics, the best of citizen participation and 

10 political leadership.

11 We now have a $39 billion industry 

12 nationwide that has its own set of standards and 

13 these standards were not created in Washington out 

14 of thin air. These standards, and I am proud to 

15 say, reflected the input of farmers, farmers from 

16 across the country and, particularly, I might add, 

17 farmers from Vermont who were very much engaged in 

18 the beginning of establishing organic agriculture 

19 as a viable, meaningful occupation and they spoke 

20 up and they were listened to by leaders in 

21 Washington from around this country but I think it 

22 is important to note, while you are in Vermont, one 
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1 particular leaders, and that would be Senator 

2 Patrick Leahy, who I have the privilege of working 

3 for.

4 That voice of you, the farmers, 

5 citizens of our state and our country actually have 

6 made a huge difference. You spoke up with 

7 integrity. You spoke up with experience. you 

8 spoke up with candor and you kept at it until you 

9 were listened to and then, because you were 

10 listened to, we were able to establish a whole new 

11 wing in the agriculture production community 

12 called organic agriculture with standards that we 

13 all can understand and advance that industry.

14 And relatively speaking, given the 

15 history or agriculture, it is a pretty new and very 

16 important part of our economy.

17 And I would say that your voice and the 

18 voice of the NOSB continues to advance and promote 

19 this really important, growing industry. And when 

20 I was with Senator Leahy, he used to always kind 

21 of track the growth in billions of dollars of 

22 activity. But I think what is also important to 
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1 recognize is not only is it billions of dollars of 

2 activity in the agricultural world, it is 

3 supporting families with a sustainable living in 

4 the agriculture arena and it is responding to the 

5 consumers and their sharpening focus on what they 

6 want. They want to know where their food is 

7 produced, how it is produced, who is doing the 

8 producing and the organic community and the 

9 products you produce continue to respond to that 

10 consumer demand.

11 I will tell you from my standpoint as 

12 the Secretary of Agriculture from the State of 

13 Vermont, this an industry that is critically 

14 important and it is growing in importance. It is 

15 the foundation to an evolution and leadership in 

16 the State of Vermont to our community-based 

17 agriculture.

18 If you are not familiar with Vermont, 

19 we have for many decades been considered a dairy 

20 state. We continue to have 75 to 80 percent of our 

21 farm gate dollars coming from dairy, about 184 of 

22 which are organic dairy farms out of about 850. We 
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1 have been a dairy state but we have been 

2 diversifying our agricultural base for a long time 

3 and, particularly in the last 10 or 15 years in 

4 organic agriculture, as a critical, let me 

5 underscore critical, component of that evolution. 

6 And it has helped Vermont, in my mind, become a 

7 leader in what I call community-based agriculture, 

8 where we actually know who is doing our production. 

9 We actually are familiar with how they are 

10 producing it. We know the people. We understand 

11 the import of buying local, buying regionally, and 

12 supporting that agricultural economy, that 

13 agriculture community, that agriculture culture 

14 that is so critical to a sustainable agriculture.

15 And so in my view, there is much to be 

16 proud of and much to celebrate, both in Vermont and 

17 beyond because this is not just a Vermont movement, 

18 not just a Northeast movement and, as Senator Leahy 

19 used to say, we used to be thought of as just a bunch 

20 of hippies up there in the northeastern part of the 

21 country that were advancing organics. No, this is 

22 a nationwide and a global movement and you all are 
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1 to be commended for supporting it.

2 But I want to give you one more 

3 perspective, given my experience the last four and 

4 a half years. I have had the privilege of being 

5 the president of the national group of my 

6 colleagues called NASDA, the National Association 

7 of State Departments of Agriculture. And a couple 

8 of lessons. One, when I started, and that is all 

9 my colleagues around the country who deal with 

10 agriculture policy every day, the first thing I 

11 noticed is there wasn't much dairy represented. 

12 And the second thing I noticed is there wasn't any 

13 organic represented at that national meetings. A 

14 lot of policy conversations. We would have the Tom 

15 Vilsack types come the meetings from all walks of 

16 agricultural life but not once did I see somebody 

17 from the organic community show up among me and my 

18 colleagues, whose responsibility it is to advance 

19 agriculture policy across the country.

20 And when I was President, I had the job 

21 of hosting a meeting like Jean has to today and I 

22 used to promote our organization to help raise some 
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1 money to support it and saying my colleagues are 

2 important because if you are going to advance 

3 agriculture policy in the United States, well, 

4 where do you go? Congress, right? Well, you tell 

5 me how much Congress is getting done these days.

6 Well, then if you don't get it done in 

7 Congress, where do you go? You might go to your 

8 governors but the governors typically have a wide 

9 variety of things they need to think about in 

10 advance. And so, consequently, agriculture 

11 policy oftentimes falls to people like myself who 

12 are dealing with it on a day-to-day basis and move 

13 it through the system.

14 And what I was seeing when I was making 

15 that pitch was I wasn't seeing organic agriculture. 

16 But one of the things I am most proud of is I 

17 actually reached out to the organic community and 

18 the sustainable ag community and they came onboard. 

19 The Organic Trade Association is now involved with 

20 the National Association of State Departments of 

21 Agriculture. Your voice is being heard in a way 

22 that it hasn't been heard before and I urge you, 
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1 I urge you to stay engaged because me and my 

2 colleagues do make decisions. We have influence 

3 and we shape the policy framework.

4 I am going to be out of a job in about 

5 16 months because my governor is not running again. 

6 So, I have to figure out where I am going to go next. 

7 But one of the things I want to leave is a legacy 

8 that the organic community be involved in the 

9 national conversation about agriculture policy and 

10 its future. And you have not been in the way you 

11 should be and you are now. So, stay engaged.

12 Last point and this is more of a 

13 warning. And that is, as we move forward in the 

14 agriculture conversation and, particularly, in the 

15 organic conversation, let us continue to be 

16 thoughtful. Let us continue to be reasoned and 

17 pursue our ag and food futures in that way. Let's 

18 honor the need to have a healthy planet, have 

19 healthy consumers, and a healthy industry. And, 

20 this is the point, let us also honor our diversity, 

21 both within the agriculture community, of which I 

22 think we are going to hear differing points of view
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1 today, and within agriculture as a whole.

2 I will tell you, from my perspective as 

3 being a President of the National Association and 

4 dealing at that level, it is so easy to find 

5 ourselves focused on the things that divide us at 

6 the expense of all the things that unite us. The 

7 issues of food and agriculture are too big, too 

8 profound to our future, to spend all our time, all 

9 our energy, all our political effort and will 

10 fighting over the things that divide us.

11 There is too much to be gained, too much 

12 to be learned from one another, whether it be within 

13 the organic community or within the agriculture 

14 community at large, to ignore and miss those 

15 learning opportunities to advance agriculture and 

16 food at the speed and at the rate and in the way 

17 that it needs to be. I am a firm believer that we 

18 have a bright future ahead of us in agriculture. 

19 It is not only bright but it is necessary. An 

20 organic community needs to be a big part of that. 

21 We have much, much to learn, and much, much to do 

22 in the years ahead.
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1 So, that would be my warning, given my 

2 experience, involved in the politics of 

3 agriculture. We have too much that unites us.

4 So, now I think I am supposed to done 

5 one other thing.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes and before you 

7 introduce Senator Leahy via the video, I would like 

8 to acknowledge the presence of Tom Berry over here. 

9 Tom is in the State Director -- or is that correct 

10 -- for Senator Leahy here in the State of Vermont. 

11 And if you have questions or comments you want to 

12 put to him, he will be here for a while this morning.

13 Do you want to say anything, Tom? 

14 Great. Thank you, Tom.

15 So, Chuck, would you like to introduce 

16 the Senator, the virtual presence of the Senator?

17 SECRETARY ROSS: I would be happy to, 

18 Jean, and thank you. The fact that you are here 

19 in Vermont and that you have a U.S. Senator who has 

20 taken the time to cut a video, as some as a former 

21 staff person for a senator, that is no small 

22 potatoes. I will tell you people like Tom and 
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1 Adrienne Wojciechowski who he works with in 

2 Washington, D.C., they take time to make sure these 

3 things happen. They brief the senator. He, 

4 frankly, doesn't need, and I will tell you this from 

5 experience, a whole lot of briefing when it comes 

6 to organic agriculture because he actually pays 

7 attention to this.

8 And the fact that he wants you to have 

9 a video of what he has to say is significant.

10 For those of you who don't know the 

11 senator, he has a great staff, Tom Berry being one 

12 of them, who has been with the senator for a number 

13 of years. He has other staff, both in Vermont and 

14 Washington, D.C., who actually really care about 

15 what happens to agriculture and organic 

16 agriculture in Vermont and beyond.

17 He has been and continues to be a 

18 guardian of the first amendment. He is championed 

19 as that man who advances all our voices. He is, 

20 without a doubt, considered an environmental 

21 senator and that ranges from his deep concerns 

22 about Lake Champlain to concerns about the Amazon 
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1 and climate change that is occurring around this 

2 world. He is an international voice of peace and 

3 reason and he is a long-term voice for agriculture 

4 in the United States. He has been in the senate 

5 since 1974, the longest serving member to serve the 

6 state of Vermont and all those years he has been 

7 on the Agriculture Committee. And so it is no 

8 surprise that it was he to whom the organic 

9 community turned when they needed to advance 

10 national organic standards, of which he is 

11 considered the father.

12 And with that introduction, I would ask 

13 you to just give the senator a few minutes as he 

14 addresses you via video. And I thank you, myself, 

15 for being here and giving me an opportunity to say 

16 a few remarks.

17 SENATOR LEAHY: What a treat, and 

18 especially in Vermont in the fall, to welcome you 

19 all from across the country and from the Green 

20 Mountain State to the National Organic Standards 

21 Board Fall Meeting. I appreciate you brought your 

22 2015 meeting to Stowe and to what I think is one 
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1 of the prettiest settings in our state.

2 I especially wanted to recognize NOSB 

3 Chairwoman, Jean Richardson. I have known Dr. 

4 Richardson's exceptional contributions as a 

5 professor a scientist, a researcher, environmental 

6 advocate, and community leader for many years and 

7 is a very close of both mine and Marcelle's. I knew 

8 that well before I nominated her to serve on the 

9 NOSB. So, I really wasn't surprised to see Jean 

10 take on the leadership position at a time of 

11 considerable challenge for your Board and to see 

12 her turn away attempts to dilute the meeting of the 

13 organic seal.

14 As her term as Chair draws to a close 

15 with this meeting, please, all of you, join me in 

16 thanking Jean for strong, open, and thoughtful 

17 leadership. Heck, let's all clap for her.

18 And this year, we are celebrating the 

19 Silver Anniversary of the Organic Foods Production 

20 Act. Twenty-five years ago, when I was the new 

21 chairman of the Senate Agriculture Committee, I 

22 included this charter for the National Organic 
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1 Standards and Labeling Program. I put in the 1990 

2 Farm Bill. And I brought the Agriculture 

3 Committee to Montpelier, my birthplace.

4 At that time, the term organic meant 

5 whatever you wanted it to mean. It told consumers 

6 nothing about the products. And many in the 

7 Senate, back then, dismissed organics as a small 

8 niche activity. They thought it was just a hobby 

9 of a bunch of crunchy fringe-types up there in 

10 northern New England. It's never going to amount 

11 to much or have any impact within American 

12 agriculture.

13 Well, the verdict seems to be in on that 

14 question today. Organic product sales in the 

15 United States are now valued at $39 billion a year. 

16 They posted double digit growth year after year, 

17 after year. 

18 But give me a moment of native 

19 Vermonter's pride to note that Vermont leads the 

20 way with the greatest number of organic farms per 

21 capita in the United States. So, the entire 

22 organic industry and the livelihoods of thousands 
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1 of Americans, many of them in Vermont, are based 

2 entirely upon consumers' trust that the organic 

3 seal has real meaning.

4 Many of us in this room fought hard in 

5 the beginning of the organic program to make sure 

6 that happened. And trust in the organic seal has 

7 brought us far over the past 25 years and the work 

8 of the National Organic Standards Board is 

9 essential to keep that promise.

10 In the United States and around the 

11 world, particularly here in Vermont, consumers are 

12 demanding to know what is in their food and they 

13 want to know how it is produced. And policymakers 

14 and producers are responding with a proliferation 

15 and formal label that says it is GMO-free, or 

16 contains GMOs, or cage-free, or all natural, 

17 hormone-free, and many more but only the organic 

18 label is built on a foundation of federal law and 

19 carefully considered rules and guidance all 

20 grounded by 25 years of experience and an 

21 independent Board that hears the input of producers 

22 and consumers and processors alike.
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1 So, over the next four days, you are 

2 going to hear from some of the most dedicated and 

3 experienced organic producers in the world, 

4 including many here in Vermont who have advised me 

5 for years. And I know you will listen closely to 

6 this testimony input, as you and all of us continue 

7 to fight to protect the integrity of the organic 

8 label. I know how important your work is to the 

9 organic sector. We all do. So, have a great 

10 meeting and welcome to Vermont.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

12 and thank you, Chuck; thank you, Tom, for being 

13 here.

14 We will next take the formal 

15 Secretary's report. And Harold Austin is the 

16 Secretary of the NOSB and we would request that he 

17 present the acceptance of the 2015 meeting summary 

18 of April 2015.

19 Harold.

20 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you Madam Chair. 

21 At this time, I would like to address the members 

22 of the National Organic Standards Board. If there 
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1 are any additions or questions -- for the April 2015 

2 meeting held in La Jolla -- for the full summary 

3 and voting of the members of the --

4 Hearing, none, I would move that we 

5 accept these as the official record of the Spring 

6 2015 Meeting of the National Organic Standards 

7 Board of the La Jolla meeting.

8 Madam Chair, that ends the Secretary's 

9 report.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Harold. 

11 The wording was not entirely clear for us. It is 

12 skipping every sort of almost alternative phrase. 

13 So, basically it is simply the pro forma 

14 presentation of the request to accept the 2015 

15 meeting summary has now become the official record 

16 of the April 2015 meeting. 

17 Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

18 The next item in our agenda is a 

19 presentation by the National Organic Program. It 

20 is a report and update since our last meeting. And 

21 I would ask Miles McEvoy, Deputy Administration of 

22 the National Organic Program, to present his report 
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1 to us. Thank you.

2 MR. MCEVOY: Okay, thanks, Jean. As I 

3 said, it is nice to be here in Vermont. I have a 

4 number of things to report about activities at AMS 

5 National Organic Program.

6 Okay, so I am going to cover a number 

7 of things today. I am going to talk about the 

8 Agricultural Marketing Services National Organic 

9 Programs strategic plan. I presented this at the 

10 spring meeting. So, it is an update about that 

11 strategic plan and some of the activities that we 

12 are conducting under the auspices of the goals of 

13 the strategic plan.

14 I am going to get into a little more 

15 detail about perfecting organic integrity, some of 

16 the things that we are doing specifically in the 

17 compliance and enforcement division, then move on 

18 to some topics that are more particular to the 

19 National Organic Standards Board, then an update 

20 on the organic integrity database and, finally, 

21 some of the sound and sensible certification 

22 projects that we have been conducting.
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1 First, just a quick overview of some of 

2 the accomplishments over the last number of years. 

3 There have been many. Former Deputy Secretary 

4 Merrigan started what is called the age of 

5 enforcement in 2009, which outlined the principles 

6 of appropriate penalties for violations of organic 

7 standards now, for the National Organic Program 

8 issuing civil penalties and using our new subpoena 

9 authority that we got under the 2014 Farm Bill. It 

10 is fairly routine for the Compliance and 

11 Enforcement Division.

12 The Pasture Rule has been a very 

13 important milestone for the National Organic 

14 Program. It was finalized in 2010 and implemented 

15 over the next couple of years and it ensures that 

16 all organic ruminant operations are pasture-based 

17 operations. Residue testing is now an integral 

18 part of the certification process and that helps 

19 to protect organic integrity. The NOP Handbook 

20 provides guidance and instructions to organic 

21 operations and certifying agents. It helps 

22 provide consistency in how the rules are 
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1 interpreted and enforced. And many of those 

2 instructions and guidances and policy memos that 

3 are in the handbook are directly from the 

4 recommendations from National Organic Standards 

5 Board.

6 We have also increased audit 

7 consistency with the 80 accredited certifiers that 

8 operate around the world. Audits are now 

9 regularly conducted and include a number of new 

10 tools, including review audits, compliance audits 

11 and other tools that ensure consistency in 

12 alignment of those certifiers with the 

13 accreditation and standards requirements.

14 We have had four audits conducted by the 

15 Office of Inspector General. All those audits led 

16 to findings that have helped strengthen NOP 

17 performance.

18 In terms of international equivalency 

19 arrangements, we have negotiated and implemented 

20 equivalency arrangements with five countries and 

21 provided a common market for organic products while 

22 ensuring protection of organic standards. So, this 
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1 is quite a feat now that the two largest markets, 

2 the European Union and the U.S. have basically a 

3 common way of trading organic products. It really 

4 makes a big difference for organic producers and 

5 handlers around the world to access those market.

6 We have made significant improvements 

7 to the appeals process, reduced the appeals time 

8 from two years to about six months.

9 We have launched the USDA Organic 

10 Literacy Initiative and trained tens of thousands 

11 of USDA employees around the U.S. and also around 

12 the globe. So, those employees or those staff at 

13 USDA now have basic understanding of organic 

14 standards, of the certification requirements, and 

15 that pays a lot of dividends for the agricultural 

16 community.

17 We have implemented an effective 

18 communication tool, the USDA Organic Insider so we 

19 can communicate about USDA activities that support 

20 the organic sector. We created a list of certified 

21 operations and made improvements to the data 

22 quality every year. And we have implemented the 
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1 sound and certification concept to ensure that 

2 certification protects organic integrity but does 

3 that in a manner that is reasonable, that is 

4 accessible, obtainable, and affordable by farmers 

5 and handlers. Still a lot more work needs to be 

6 done in that area but a lot of good work has already 

7 been accomplished.

8 So, the NOP strategic plan has five main 

9 goals. First and foremost is protecting organic 

10 integrity. That is the main business of the 

11 National Organic Program and guides everything 

12 that we do.

13 Secondly, market access, and when we 

14 talk about market access, that is not only about 

15 international market access, that is about access 

16 to local and regional markets ensuring that farmers 

17 and handlers have the information they need and the 

18 resources they need to be successful in getting 

19 into the organic market.

20 Clear standards, third goal, there is 

21 still a lot of work that is needed in this area. 

22 There are a number of NOSB recommendations that 
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1 need to be fully implemented. We have made a lot 

2 of progress on clear standards but we still need 

3 to complete rulemaking on origin of livestock, 

4 animal welfare, aquaculture, apiculture, pet food, 

5 mushrooms and there is probably a few more that we 

6 will find after we finish those.

7 Utilizing technology to advance 

8 organic integrity. Right now the focus of this 

9 particular goal is to modernize database but we 

10 want to ensure that we appropriately utilize 

11 technology to protect organic integrity.

12 And finally, organizational 

13 development. The NOP staff has grown to almost 

14 staff members. We need to ensure that they have 

15 the training and support that they need, provide 

16 the quality services to the organic sector. We 

17 also need to continually improve our processes 

18 within the program to effectively and efficiently 

19 serve the organic community.

20 So, I want to get into a little more 

21 detail around protecting organic integrity. Let 

22 me get all the numbers up. 
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1 Okay, so here we have a comprehensive 

2 overview of the ten key concepts that together help 

3 to protect organic integrity. So, certification 

4 is certainly the core business process around 

5 protecting organic integrity but there is a number 

6 of other elements as well that are very important.

7 So, first, clear and enforceable 

8 standards. Farmers and handlers need to 

9 understand the standards. If they can understand 

10 what the requirements are, they are much more able 

11 to comply with those requirements. And then they 

12 also need to be enforceable. So, for certifiers, 

13 in particular, the standards need to be written in 

14 a way that they are enforceable. We do have some 

15 work to do in that area and in certain aspects of 

16 the regulations that really need to be clarified 

17 and crystalized, so that they are clear of what are 

18 the enforceable parts of the standard.

19 Second, we need to have an effective 

20 communication system so people know what the 

21 standards are or changes to the standards. So the 

22 USDA Organic Insider is part of that communication 
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1 network.

2 Third, transparency in regards to 

3 process and changes to process. So, the NOSB 

4 provides transparency in the work that they do 

5 through their subcommittees, the notes from their 

6 subcommittees, the proposals that they have out for 

7 public comment, the public comments that they 

8 receive. AMS, in our work, we provide further 

9 transparency when we send out information and ask 

10 for public comments on draft guidance and proposed 

11 rules. A very important part of the process.

12 Fourth, certification, it is the heart 

13 and soul of the verification system. We need to 

14 ensure that the certification system is thorough 

15 and that there are quality inspectors and reviewers 

16 that are conducting the work of certification, that 

17 they have the tools and the resources they need to 

18 do effective certification work.

19 Fifth, an accessible and effective 

20 complaint process. We want to really get the word 

21 out that we have a complaint process and make sure 

22 that that is an effective complaint process. 
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1 Sixth, appropriate penalties for 

2 violations of the standards. So, they vary, 

3 depending upon the type of violation, from a 

4 corrective action to civil penalties, to criminal 

5 penalties for criminal violation. So, an 

6 effective penalty structure is important.

7 Seventh, market surveillance, this is 

8 one area that needs more attention. I would like 

9 to see a more effective way that labels and products 

10 that are sold in the marketplace could be reviewed 

11 to ensure certification and compliance with the 

12 organic standards. So, this would be part of a 

13 comprehensive system to protect organic integrity 

14 but we have more work to do in really creating a 

15 more effective market surveillance part of the 

16 program.

17 Eighth, unannounced inspections. 

18 This compliments the certification process. It 

19 keeps everyone no their toes and now is a regular 

20 part of the process that certifiers conduct, that 

21 they conduct unannounced inspections to help 

22 protect organic integrity.
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1 Ninth is residue testing. We have 

2 learned a lot in the last few years. Now that it 

3 is a regular requirement of the certification work, 

4 we have found residues that have led to enforcement 

5 actions or improvements to buffer zones or handling 

6 procedures. So, it is a very important component 

7 of protecting organic integrity.

8 And finally, continuous improvement, 

9 always looking for ways to make the system better, 

10 more fool-proof to ensure that organic products 

11 really are organic.

12 So we have a very effective complaint 

13 process and this is the form that we have on our 

14 website that illustrates the kind of information 

15 that we like to receive or want to receive to have 

16 that complaint process be effective. The 

17 information about how to file a complaint is on our 

18 website. Anyone can file a complaint at 

19 NOPCompliance@usda.gov. We provide guidance on 

20 what helps our compliance work. We need to receive 

21 as much as information as possible about the 

22 alleged violation, what type of product or 
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1 operation, when and where was the product purchased 

2 or the violation observed, copies of labels or 

3 product lot numbers can also be very helpful.

4 All complainants are anonymous. So, 

5 that is one thing to let people know that anyone 

6 that files a complaint, that is not disclosed under 

7 FOIA requests. So, keep that in mind if you are 

8 interested in filing a complaint.

9 So all complaints are reviewed and 

10 evaluated. There is a process that we go 

11 through. When a complaint comes in, we first 

12 determine if it is within our jurisdiction. Our 

13 authority is under the Organic Foods Production 

14 Act. Complaints about food safety or labor laws 

15 or other violations that don't have to do with an 

16 organic claim, we would refer them to the

17 appropriate authority.

18 We also get complaints that may be about 

19 the organic standards themselves. So, that is 

20 very important information but it may not be a 

21 complaint that we investigate. For instance, we 

22 may receive a complaint that carrageenan is in an 
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1 organic food product. In those cases, we would 

2 explain that carrageenan is on the National List 

3 and we would provide information to that person on 

4 potentially how to file a petition for removal of 

5 carrageenan from the National List or how to stay 

6 informed about standards and the National Organic 

7 Standards Board process, how they can get involved 

8 in the process.

9 We also review complaints to see 

10 whether there is adequate evidence for additional 

11 investigation. If the complainant does not know 

12 when or where the product was purchased, then we 

13 may not have sufficient evidence to launch an 

14 investigation.

15 In other cases, the evidence provided 

16 shows compliance with the regulations. For 

17 instance, the label is compliant. So, there is a 

18 complaint but we look at the label and the label 

19 is actually a complaint label. Or the photos shows 

20 animals on pasture; in those situations, we may 

21 also check with the certifier, at this stage, to 

22 determine whether the operations are in good 
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1 standing.

2 If we do have sufficient evidence of 

3 violations, then we investigate further. If the 

4 operation is in the State of California, then the 

5 case would be referred to the California State 

6 Organic Program, where they would do the additional 

7 review and investigation.

8 If the case is about a certified 

9 operation, then it is referred to certifiers. 

10 Certifiers then have to report back to the NOP on 

11 the results of their investigation.

12 In the case of uncertified operations, 

13 and this what accounts for the majority of our 

14 complaints at this point, over 70 percent of our 

15 complaints are about uncertified operations, then 

16 the NOP Compliance and Enforcement Division 

17 conducts the investigation.

18 So, I wanted to give some examples of 

19 some of the enforcement actions that we have taken 

20 over the last year. First, is a case where we 

21 prevailed in a formal administrative complaint 

22 against Ernest Miller of Stony-M Farm. This was 
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1 a case involving the use of a prohibited substance. 

2 The farmer claimed that the substance should be 

3 allowed and that it was only a minor ingredient in 

4 a fertilizer mix. The certifier did their work, 

5 in terms of issuing a notice of non-compliance and 

6 then, later, a notice of proposed suspension, which 

7 the farmer appealed.

8 At that point, when there is an appeal, 

9 we take a look at the appeal and we then eventually 

10 issued an administrator's decision, which denied 

11 that appeal. At that point, the operation still 

12 has additional appeal rights. So, they requested 

13 a hearing in front of an administrative law judge. 

14 And for us to move forward with that, we have to 

15 file a complaint.

16 So, we filed a complaint and we held 

17 that hearing in front of the administrative law 

18 judge and prevailed with a three-year suspension 

19 of the land where the substance was applied. 

20 The second case was with the Organic 

21 Food Chain, which is a formally accredited 

22 certifier who operated in Australia. The NOP's 
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1 position was that this certifier willfully 

2 violated the regulations for failure to meet 

3 accreditation requirements. We issued a notice of 

4 proposed revocation and they appealed.

5 Then AMS issued an administrator's 

6 decision to deny that appeal. They then requested 

7 an administrative hearing. We then filed a 

8 complaint, which led to a consent decision and 

9 order. So, in this case, we did not go to the 

10 administrative hearing or to the administrative 

11 law judge. We settled this matter with a consent 

12 decision and order, where they agreed to be 

13 suspended for two years, rather than go to the 

14 hearing. So, at this point, this certifier is 

15 suspended and in order for them to get reinstated, 

16 they would have to demonstrate full compliance in 

17 order to reinstate their accreditation after the 

18 two-year suspension.

19 Another example where we have had a lot 

20 of success around compliance is with the help of 

21 the National Organic Program Handbook. A few 

22 years ago, we published the instruction food needs 
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1 to be certified in order to clarify the operations 

2 that needed to be independently certified. Prior 

3 to this publication, some certifiers were allowing 

4 operations to be covered by other certification. 

5 These operations were inspected but they weren't 

6 independently certified. So, this instruction 

7 clarified that operations that produce or handle 

8 organic food products need to be independently 

9 certified.

10 So after publication, we received a 

11 number of complaints about auction barns that were 

12 not certified, uncertified operations. We 

13 conducted investigations and the result of that is 

14 six of those operations obtained certification and 

15 are continuing to handle organic livestock and the 

16 other operations have stopped handling organic 

17 livestock. So, they are all in compliance and part 

18 of the outcome is that six of those operations are 

19 now certified organic livestock auction barns.

20 In regards to serious violations, we 

21 often work with other regulatory authorities. One 

22 example was an uncertified operation that was 
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1 making organic claims in Alabama. We initiated an 

2 investigation in 2013 and then we worked with the 

3 State of Alabama's Attorney General's Office in 

4 support of their investigation of securities 

5 fraud. Was the result was that last year the owner 

6 accepted a plea bargain from Alabama that included 

7 a 15-year prison term and fines. Not all because 

8 of organic fraud but the organic violations that 

9 we investigated and provided to the State of 

10 Alabama supported this case.

11 In summary, the Compliance and 

12 Enforcement Division received 549 complaints last 

13 year and completed review and investigations or 

14 enforcement actions on 390 cases. So, the number 

15 of complaints that we are receiving are increasing 

16 quite significantly. When I started in 2009, we 

17 had less than 200 complaints that we were receiving 

18 every year. So, we are getting significantly more 

19 complaints that are coming in. We think that is 

20 a very good thing. That means that we are getting 

21 the word out to people that we have an effective 

22 complaint process and this helps us to take the 
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1 actions to bring more consistency and integrity to 

2 the organic system.

3 Also keep in mind that part of 

4 compliance and enforcement's mission is to both 

5 enforce the standards, as well as protect compliant 

6 operations. Some complaints are filed for 

7 malicious reasons. Some complaints are against 

8 competitors, so there is no real basis for it but 

9 they are in a dispute. Some are filed because of 

10 domestic disputes or even to discriminate against 

11 certain types of farmers or operations. It is as 

12 important to clear a case and close it with no 

13 findings as to find violations and take appropriate 

14 enforcement action.

15 When violations do occur, we have a 

16 number of a tools that we utilize. Last year we 

17 issued 36 cease and desist orders and issued 121 

18 notices of warning. We also issued eight civil 

19 penalties and fines that totaled almost $2 million. 

20 So, a lot of great work is being done by the 

21 compliance and enforcement division and I think it 

22 is important for people to know that.
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1 Okay, so let's now turn to the National 

2 Organic Standards Board activities. As you know, 

3 the National Organic Standards Board is a Federal 

4 Advisory Committee which assists and advises USDA. 

5 NOSB provides very critical and important 

6 recommendations that help the Agricultural 

7 Marketing Service develop, interpret, and 

8 implement the National Organic Program. The NOSB 

9 has a charter, which will be renewed next year. 

10 The charter has to be renewed every two years. It 

11 spells out the mission and duties of the Board. 

12 The National Organic Standards Board has a 

13 designated federal officer, who is the Program 

14 Manager of the National Organic Program, meaning 

15 myself, the Deputy Administrator of the NOP. 

16 There are certain responsibilities that the DFO has 

17 in terms of opening and closing the meeting.

18 The NOSB has subcommittees that do a lot 

19 of the work that has been presented to the full 

20 board at these meetings and a chair of the board. 

21 And as a FACA, as a Federal Advisory Committee, the 

22 NOSB must have opportunity for public comment.
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1 There are 15 members of the Board that 

2 are appointed by Secretary of Agriculture to 

3 five-year terms. There are 14 at this meeting 

4 because we had one resignation over the summer, 

5 Paula Daniels. So, there will be six new 

6 appointees for the 2016 session.

7 Nominations for the last open position, 

8 the Environmental Protection and Resource 

9 Conservation position will close this Thursday. 

10 So, please apply and encourage others to apply. I 

11 know there is a lot of great people here in this 

12 room that really, at some point, you should be 

13 sitting up here. So, please apply to be on the 

14 National Organic Standards Board. The more 

15 applications we receive, the better.

16 So, this is just a little bit of 

17 statistics on what has been happening with the NOSB 

18 recommendation. So, the NOSB has made numerous 

19 recommendations. By our count, there has been 174 

20 practice standards recommendations over the last 

21 20 years, for which AMS has addressed around 150 

22 of them. There are a number of outstanding ones 
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1 that include a number on aquiculture, on pet food, 

2 on apiculture, on mushrooms. There is multiple 

3 recommendations on animal welfare. So, this is 

4 one area that AMS, the National Organic Program, 

5 still has a significant amount of work to do.

6 The one thing about the recommendations 

7 that is a little hard to compare is some of the 

8 earlier recommendations had lots of topics that 

9 were in the same recommendation. But the Board as 

10 a whole, 174 recommendations, of which about 150 

11 have been addressed by AMS.

12 In regards to the National List, 101 

13 recommendations, 89 of those have been addressed. 

14 There are some outstanding recommendations but 

15 most of those are recent or are in process. There 

16 are a few old National List recommendations on 

17 livestock materials that we are in the process of 

18 putting together a proposed rule on those. So that 

19 should be coming out next year.

20 In terms of sunset, 129 reviews have 

21 been completed. So that looks a little odd, since 

22 there are over 200 materials on the National List 
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1 of why there is only 129 reviews. But what you have 

2 to keep in mind is that the previous sunset review 

3 processes bundled substances into one review 

4 recommendation. So, one recommendation may have 

5 represented 50 different substances under previous 

6 boards.

7 And we do have one outstanding 

8 substance review substance that we have not 

9 addressed and that is sodium nitrate, which is 

10 still an outstanding item that the program needs 

11 to resolve. I'm sure Zea would be happy to hear 

12 that.

13 Okay, moving on to hydroponics. I know 

14 the National Organic Coalition had a good 

15 conversation about this yesterday but I just wanted 

16 to talk a little bit about the progress that we have 

17 made on the Task Force.

18 Just a little history, in 1995 the NOSB 

19 recommended that hydroponic production in soilless 

20 media to be labeled organically produced shall be 

21 allowed of all provisions of the organic food 

22 production act have been met.
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1 In 2004 they basically said the same 

2 thing. They reiterated that recommendation that 

3 soilless media to be labeled organically produced 

4 shall be allowed if all provisions of the OFPA have 

5 been met.

6 In 2005, the National Organic Program 

7 confirmed that hydroponic operations may be 

8 certified organic if produced in compliance with 

9 the regulations.

10 So, over this time frame, there has been 

11 a couple of dozen operations that have gotten 

12 certified using the current regulations and are 

13 certified by a number of different certifying 

14 agencies.

15 In 2010, the NOSB Greenhouse 

16 recommendation, the NOSB recommended that USDA 

17 shouldn't allow organic crops to be produced using 

18 organic methods -- using hydroponic methods. 

19 Thank you, Jean.

20 So, we have different recommendations 

21 over time, which in and of itself when it would not 

22 necessarily be enough to stop us from moving 
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1 forward but within that recommendation of 

2 prohibiting hydroponics, it doesn't really clearly 

3 clarify what is hydroponics and what isn't because 

4 there is a continuum of different types of 

5 operations that are field-based, soil-based 

6 operations to more container systems that are using 

7 potting soil to semi-hydroponic systems that are 

8 using some kind of growing matrix with a water bath.

9 So for us to move forward with any kind 

10 of rulemaking or guidance on this would be very 

11 challenging without more information about what is 

12 really the intent of the National Organic Standards 

13 Board. So, therefore, we have created a Task Force 

14 to ask the NOSB to provide us with further 

15 clarification about hydroponics, organic 

16 hydroponics. And we established this Task Force 

17 to report on the compatibility of these systems 

18 with the regulations and the Organic Foods 

19 Production Act. That Task Force will provide a 

20 report to the NOSB and that will be on current 

21 hydroponic and aquaponic production methods used 

22 in organic production and whether these practices 
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1 align with OFPA and the USDA organic regulations.

2 We imagine that the report will include 

3 a diversity of perspectives of those that think it 

4 does and those that don't. And that will be in the 

5 report to the NOSB and then NOSB will do their 

6 deliberations to determine further 

7 recommendations on hydroponics.

8 So, the Task Force has been appointed. 

9 They will have their first conference calls within 

10 the next few weeks. They will have a face-to-face 

11 meeting this winter. We hope to have their final 

12 report submitted to the Board sometime over the 

13 summer so that there can be a proposal in front of 

14 the Board for the Fall 2016 meeting.

15 The NOSB liaisons on the Task Force are 

16 Jean Richardson and Zea Sonnabend and then the 

17 members are a diversity of both soil-based and 

18 hydroponic growers and academics and certifiers 

19 from around the country. So, we look forward to 

20 the work of this Task Force as we work to get more 

21 information on this topic.

22 Moving on to the Organic Integrity 
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1 Database. This has been a very successful 

2 project. If you are familiar with IT projects, a 

3 lot of times they don't go so well and they are not 

4 delivered on time but this one was. The first 

5 version of the integrity database was launched at 

6 the end of September. The goal of the project is 

7 to develop a modernized database that contains 

8 up-to-date and accurate information, increases 

9 supply chain transparency, and promotes market 

10 visibility for organic operations.

11 Certifiers and other data users have 

12 been involved in creating the database and 

13 supporting the development of it, participating in 

14 a user group. There are over 31,000 operations 

15 that are listed in the database, with over 175,000 

16 products. So, it is a large amount of data that 

17 is covered under this database.

18 The capabilities of the new database 

19 include certifier user accounts. This will allow 

20 the certifier to upload data, new data fields which 

21 will allow better research to support compliance, 

22 a new scope and product taxonomy. And once 
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1 everyone is using this, this will help to provide 

2 a more consistent view of the taxonomy of organic 

3 products, more structure, and search and higher 

4 data quality. Certifiers will be able to upload 

5 data in both Excel or hand enter the data online.

6 There is a new user interface. So, if 

7 you go to the website, there is a new look and feel 

8 to the database. It is much more accessible 

9 information. In the next month, certifiers will 

10 be able to log in and submit updates directly and 

11 it also has public search and report functions as 

12 well.

13 This you can't see very well but this 

14 is basically the new template that certifiers 

15 already have. It has a core of required 

16 information and a range of optional data fields 

17 that will be used to support future capabilities 

18 of this database. The new template allows 

19 certifiers to build a data export tool and provide 

20 data to the NOP often so that the data will be much, 

21 much more current, rather than the one time data 

22 that we have had in previous years.
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1 In terms of the taxonomy of how you find 

2 things, the first level is crops -- or the scope. 

3 So, there will be crops, livestock, wild crops, and 

4 handling at the current time. And then categories 

5 within the crops scope. There will be various 

6 category names, then items names, and then more and 

7 more specific information as you go down through 

8 the taxonomy. Multiple levels with flexible 

9 options for engaging.

10 We have used both top-down and 

11 bottom-up approaches. So we consulted with other 

12 data creators. The national agricultural 

13 statistic service with the EU, with the organic 

14 trade association, with global gap, and with 

15 retailer standards to build this flexible 

16 taxonomy.

17 There is also a bottom-up way that this 

18 has created as well. We mined the 2014 certified 

19 operations and the props and the products that were 

20 listed. There were over 40,000 unique items that 

21 were listed. Many misspellings, many different 

22 ways of spelling the same product. The same item 
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1 was listed hundreds of times with small variations 

2 of wording. So, over time, this is a very 

3 important part of this database to stabilize and 

4 standardize the names that we use for the products 

5 that are in better certified organic.

6 An example of one of the products listed 

7 was grape chicken apples, for instance. So, the 

8 data base will help to eliminate those types of 

9 products. I don't know what a grape chicken apple 

10 is but I guess it is organic.

11 So, this is a view of what the database 

12 now looks like on the website. Access to the new 

13 system at the same link. You can get to the list 

14 of certified operations. You go to the AMS home 

15 page under directories in the bottom left. The 

16 currently posted data is 2014 data still. This is 

17 the data that we received from certifiers at the 

18 beginning of 2015, which is basically their 2014 

19 data. But over the next few months, we will be 

20 receiving the new information from the certifiers 

21 and then they will continually update that 

22 information over the course of the year so the data 
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1 will be much more current as we move forward into 

2 the future.

3 So that is Phase 1 of the database. We 

4 have Version 2 and Version 3 will be released later 

5 this year and some of the things that will be in 

6 the database, advanced search enhancements, 

7 automated connections for the certifiers to 

8 provide their data. 

9 There will be certifier profiles 

10 available through the database, a history of the 

11 operation, in terms of when they were certified, 

12 whether they were suspended or reinstated. 

13 Adverse action documentation will be part of the 

14 database and then, at the end of the year, we are 

15 hoping to have a certificate. So, a federated or 

16 federalized certificate. Right now, there is 80 

17 different organic certificates that are being 

18 used. It is very difficult for compliance to have 

19 all these different ways that certificates are --

20 different information on different certificates 

21 from different certifiers. So, the concept is to 

22 have one USDA certificate that certifiers can 
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1 utilize.

2 I know all the certifiers are not really 

3 thrilled by this idea but, in terms of transparency 

4 and compliance and trade, having one type of 

5 certificate with the same type of information, I 

6 think, is very important.

7 Okay, moving on to sound and sensible. 

8 Sound and sensible is a concept to ensure the 

9 integrity of organic food products with the sound 

10 part of that phrase, but doing it in a sensible way, 

11 so that we are reasonable in terms of the 

12 requirements that we require of organic producers 

13 and handlers so that they can be successful, so we 

14 don't request ridiculous amounts of paperwork. We 

15 only request what is necessary to protect organic 

16 integrity.

17 So, in 2014, AMS funded 14 projects that 

18 support this concept of accessible, attainable, 

19 and affordable organic certification. The 

20 projects have already helped over 200 farms and 

21 businesses learn about the path to organic 

22 certification. We have many educational 
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1 resources that have been created through these 

2 projects, videos, tip sheets, and workshop 

3 materials that now enable us to reach thousands of 

4 new farms and businesses.

5 So, these 14 projects were awarded to 

6 13 different organizations. They covered the 

7 breadth of the United States. All areas of the 

8 United States have projects that were undertaken. 

9 And then if you look at that pie chart on the lower 

10 left, you will see that they also covered a variety 

11 of different areas. So, certification, about a 

12 third of the projects covered technical assistance 

13 around certification but also things around 

14 standards and implementation on the inspection 

15 process, on helping about record keeping and 

16 organic system plans, a lot of really good content 

17 has been created. So, 75 tip sheets or fact 

18 sheets, 16 trainings, and 15 information videos. 

19 Now, the results of these projects are going to be 

20 rolled over the next couple of months. And 

21 NOFA-Vermont was one of the contractors that 

22 created some of this work. They created five 
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1 videos that communicate the organic value 

2 proposition. And if everything works right, we 

3 will play one of the videos that NOFA-Vermont did.

4 VIDEO: Certified organic means that 

5 we are a following a set of guidelines that the USDA 

6 has set up. We are producing food in a sustainable 

7 manner and that means how we grow the food and all, 

8 how we take care of the land. Are we considering 

9 biodiversity? Are we using pesticides? Are we 

10 using herbicides? All those kind of things all go 

11 into it.

12 Organic certification offers a place 

13 for people to start asking questions. What does 

14 organic mean? What is it that you do? What are 

15 your farming practices? You know it is an 

16 opportunity for us to tell consumers that it is a 

17 whole farming practice.

18 One of the advantages of being 

19 certified, of course, access to markets is why 

20 certification was invented and it is critical and 

21 being able to differentiate yourself within those 

22 markets from somebody who is not organic. Most of 
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1 our crop is wholesale to supermarkets. It is 

2 absolutely required that we be certified organic 

3 with the USDA.

4 There is a big drive to get a lot of 

5 people into organic dairy and I think it worked 

6 really well. A lot of people who were essentially 

7 grass-based made the transition because it was easy 

8 and the pay price, although it wasn't as much higher 

9 than conventional as the pay price is now. It was 

10 stable compared to when my father milked cows; it 

11 would drop and go up. You never knew what you were 

12 going to get paid.

13 You know there is this very solid 

14 foundation that we stand on when we say we are 

15 certified organic. We are following a certain set 

16 of practices. Anyone could go look up what that 

17 means, exactly. So, it just feels like this very 

18 sort of open and accountable system that boost 

19 customers' confidence in us as growers.

20 I mean if everyone is coming to my farm 

21 and buying milk out of my bulk tank and they want 

22 to know what I do, they ask me the questions. But 
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1 if you are selling milk in a glass bottle, that 

2 organic certification just means that the people 

3 know that some third party is checking to make sure 

4 I did the things that I said I did.

5 There is certainly a lot of benefits, 

6 other than financial. A lot of times we will dive 

7 right into the financial ones because that is going 

8 to be a primary motivation for farmers to go organic 

9 but there are many other benefits of organic 

10 management and organic certification, including 

11 consumer trust in the organic seal and 

12 environmental benefits, benefits in livestock 

13 health, in soil health, and quality of the food.

14 If you are only going into something 

15 because you will get more profit, it makes it a 

16 little harder to see the possibilities of bringing 

17 more fertility onto your land and doing things in 

18 a way that doesn't look as profitable initially 

19 but, in the long-term, will bring you more 

20 fertility and better profits.

21 I think people are intimidated by the 

22 price of the certification, which is certainly a 
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1 consideration. But at the moment, it is 75 percent 

2 reimbursed through a government program.

3 It is a pretty extensive application 

4 process. It has gone online, which is a big help 

5 because our records is now kept from year to year 

6 and we just have to update it.

7 The inspector calls, makes an 

8 appointment and so, at that point, we just make sure 

9 we have everything together. And we are keeping 

10 track of all of our input. So, anything we have 

11 added to the soil in terms of amendments, 

12 fertilizer, anything we have used to control 

13 insects or pests, or diseases, we are keeping 

14 record of the timing of any of those applications.

15 We walk pretty much every inch of our 

16 fields. We walk to every boundary, especially at 

17 this farm. We are bordered by two conventional 

18 corn farms, the railroad tracks where they spray 

19 herbicides on an annual basis. And so we have to 

20 measure and make sure that all of our growing areas 

21 are a certain distance away from those areas, just 

22 so it is considered clean and safe.
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1 I think it makes us a better farmer. 

2 The documentation and the record keeping that we 

3 do, I definitely wouldn't have done it, had I not 

4 been required by organic certification to do it. 

5 You know I might have thought in my mind, oh, yes, 

6 I should write that down but it would look something 

7 funny because I don't have to show it to somebody 

8 else. It would look like something that got 

9 laundered or whatever. But now we have about six 

10 notebooks that we maintain and add to.

11 Running a business, there are 

12 disciplines that are required for it to succeed and 

13 I think record keeping is one of them. And so if 

14 somebody is completely adverse to doing the 

15 numbers, I would suggest that they become a poet 

16 and not a farmer.

17 The sorts of records that farmers need 

18 to have ready for their inspection are all aspects 

19 of the farm, everything that gets put on the crops, 

20 all of the harvests of the crops, and all of the 

21 feed and medications that get used on the livestock 

22 and, really, a description of the management system 
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1 of the farm.

2 Record keeping is vitally important. 

3 I mean if something happens or you do something, 

4 you have got to write it down. Above that is 

5 observation. Like you have got to pay attention 

6 to all the different aspects of your farm and to 

7 learn from that.

8 The best thing about certification is 

9 the community of which we are a part. And it is 

10 going to meetings, hanging out with all your 

11 friends, commiserating about when the weather is 

12 bad and patting each other on the back when the 

13 weather is good. So, we are part of a greater 

14 community that is trying to do good in the world.

15 MR. MCEVOY: Okay. So, really 

16 excellent work has been done by a number of 

17 different organizations. I think some of these 

18 videos will be highlighted at the reception on 

19 Tuesday night. But just think that this has 

20 happened throughout the country. There is going 

21 to be lots of really great resources that are going 

22 to help organic farmers and the organic sector to 
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1 continue to thrive and to grow. 

2 So, thank you. That concludes my 

3 report.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Miles. 

5 Are there any questions that the board members 

6 would like to ask of Miles, at this point, before 

7 we go to the next item? I'm not seeing any.

8 Very well, we will turn now to my very 

9 brief report of the Chair of the NOSB. Since this 

10 is my home state, I will start with just a little 

11 brief background. 

12 So, welcome to Vermont. Despite my 

13 funny accent, I have lived here for 40 years. In 

14 1976, my first husband and I started a mixed 

15 livestock farm in Fairfield, northern Vermont, 

16 where grass was about the best thing that grew 

17 there. We started from scratch. We had no barns, 

18 no house. We lived in a tent with our kids in a 

19 lean-to that I cooked on with a wood stove and I 

20 persuaded the telephone company to put the 

21 telephone on a sugar maple tree, since this was 

22 before all these phones we have now. And that is 
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1 where my two daughters grew up, Sarah Flack, a 

2 superbly knowledgeable organic specialist that 

3 most of you know. And Gwyneth Flack, my other 

4 daughter, with her husband, they now produce 

5 certified organic maple syrup, buck mountain 

6 maple. And today, the Flack Family Farm is 

7 well-known. It is organic certified of course, 

8 and especially well-known for its excellent 

9 sauerkraut and creamed cheese. So, we are a very 

10 organic family for a very long time.

11 Now some response to some of the oral 

12 and written comments that we have received over the 

13 last few months. And at the last meeting, we very 

14 clearly heard a demand for more time and more 

15 mechanisms for public comment. And so we piloted 

16 those two webinars that many of you took part in 

17 as a webinar style for getting some extra public 

18 comment in. And these, of course, are 

19 incorporated as part of this meeting and all of the 

20 materials from those webinars will, of course, be 

21 available as soon as they can get transcribed.

22 Each session was attended by about 80 
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1 people and there were 17 commenters on the first 

2 call and 18 on the second, including one person 

3 calling in from Australia, which I was pretty 

4 impressed at since she had to be there at like 5:00 

5 in the morning.

6 We had a lot of people contact us and 

7 say they were really delighted that we have this

8 additional way to provide public comment because 

9 they couldn't afford or didn't wish to come an 

10 in-face meeting but needed to continue to work on 

11 the farm.

12 For this meeting in Stowe, 110 people 

13 have signed up for oral comment and so, if you add 

14 that in to the webinar, that will be a total of 145 

15 oral commenters spread out between the three hours 

16 of the webinar time and almost eight hours of this 

17 meeting. So, that is a total of 14 hours now 

18 provided for public comment. So, that is really 

19 pretty darned impressive improvement. I am very 

20 pleased about it.

21 Michelle keeps data on who comes to the 

22 meetings and how many people and she tells me that, 
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1 on average, we have had between 74 and 90 oral 

2 commenters, typically over a period eight hours at 

3 our in-face meetings. And in La Jolla, the first 

4 of the Sunset 17 comments, we actually had 124 

5 commenters and over ten hours actually at the 

6 meeting.

7 So, with this meeting here in Stowe, 

8 we are already well ahead of the game and I think 

9 that is great.

10 Oral comment, we have been having that 

11 at five minutes on the webinar. This is to, of 

12 course, to entice people to sign on. But time at 

13 this meeting is only three minutes. So just 

14 remember that the next time we have a webinar, that 

15 you will have time for more of it, hopefully on the 

16 webinars. And of course, three minutes at this 

17 meeting because we have to also finish the review 

18 of 200 materials.

19 So, despite some of the comments that 

20 we have received, we actually have more time and 

21 more oral comment. And I thought the webinar 

22 format was fantastic in allowing people that can't 
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1 come to the meetings to be on it and I am going to 

2 be certainly, as an individual, encouraging us to 

3 do these more as well in the future.

4 I also would like to thank all of you 

5 for your written comments. We had 2,955 pages to 

6 read. And I want you to know that at dinner last 

7 night, I did learn that most everybody on this board 

8 has read all almost 3,000 pages, which is kind of 

9 scary. People took off an entire week last week. 

10 I mentioned Lisa de Lima here said she took off a 

11 week to spend the 40 hours just reading, day after 

12 day. So, that is an example of what we do in terms 

13 of our time. We do read the written comments.

14 Sunset review, just a reminder, sunset 

15 review consists now of two meeting, two 

16 opportunities for oral and written comment and all 

17 materials under sunset review come from the 

18 subcommittee with a seconded motion to remove, a 

19 seconded motion to remove. So, that is how we will 

20 be working on it when we get into our work part later 

21 this week, starting tomorrow afternoon.

22 Annotations. There is a lot of 
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1 confusion with annotations, apparently, I have 

2 seen in the written comments. The NOSB can make 

3 annotations and we are doing so. Annotations, a 

4 rulemaking procedure, are now separate from sunset 

5 review. So, we will vote on the sunset materials 

6 and based on the public comment and comment at this 

7 meeting this week as well and our view, we assume 

8 that further annotations will probably be needed 

9 for a number of individual materials so that when 

10 each of us, as NOSB members are presenting our 

11 materials or another board member, if the lead 

12 person forgets to do it, we will state that we are 

13 going to be presenting the material for vote but 

14 we will also clearly state that we are likely to 

15 be developing annotations for this material so it 

16 will be back in subcommittee for new petitions or 

17 annotations and these will, immediately following 

18 this meeting, at the next executive meeting, these 

19 annotations will be officially added to our 

20 subcommittee work agendas. 

21 And if any of you out there don't quite 

22 understand what I just explained, feel free to ask, 
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1 especially the officers of the board or Executive 

2 Committee to be sure that you understand how it is 

3 that we are going to do that just in the full 

4 transparency as to what it is that we are doing.

5 So, I am assuming that we will bring 

6 back to the April meeting a number of annotations

7 related to several of these materials that we will 

8 be completing our review on this week. 

9 Breaking up sunset. I found it a 

10 grueling year of work and I don't know about the 

11 rest of the board but I think we all did. And the 

12 NOSB will be making some suggestions to the NOP 

13 about breaking up sunset reviews so that we don't 

14 have deal with 200 substances all at one go. It 

15 is, actually, pretty ridiculous. And so we would 

16 really, really appreciate NOC, for example, or some 

17 groups of you out there, give us some 

18 recommendations on your ideas as to how you think 

19 that we could break it up in a manner that we would, 

20 all of us, be able to do due deliberation to every 

21 material in an appropriate manner but break it up.

22 Technical reports. There is quite a 
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1 bit of written public comment and also I heard again 

2 at the NOC meeting I attended for a while yesterday, 

3 confusion about TRs. I emphasized in the last year 

4 or so we have improved in our work with the NOP 

5 enormously. Collaboration between the NOP and the 

6 NOSB has definitely improved and certainly that has 

7 been one of the goals of my leadership and part of 

8 that is to really be pushing to get more TRs. We 

9 couldn't, I don't think, have handled more than we 

10 got. The NOSB can and does ask for TRs. We 

11 received 39 technical reports for Sunset 17 and 

12 some of those TRs covered more than one material. 

13 We have already requested five TRs for the sunset 

14 18 materials and we will be requesting more TRs 

15 following this meeting in order to further review 

16 and possibly annotate or reclassify some of the 

17 Sunset 17 materials.

18 In 2014, I asked them that the NOP spend 

19 $510,576, over half a million dollars, on technical 

20 reports. And so far in 2015, the NOP has spent 

21 almost $300,000 on technical reports. So, we are

22 getting them. We are asking for them, and we 
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1 appreciate your push to make sure we get as many 

2 as we need to do due diligence on the analysis of 

3 all these materials.

4 So, this has been an absolutely 

5 incredible step forward over all the other sunset 

6 reviews that have taken place during the history 

7 of the NOSB. It really is tremendous the amount 

8 of data information and science that we have 

9 received.

10 Authors of technical reports. I know 

11 that there are a number of people that want to have 

12 the names of the human beings that actually did the 

13 technical reports. Presently, the identity of our 

14 TR contractors are all available to us, the NOSB 

15 and the public. They are found on the first page 

16 of the technical report. That lists the 

17 contractor at the bottom of the page. You will see 

18 it in the footer.

19 And as with all federal contracts, the 

20 contractors have to identify potential conflicts 

21 of interest and go through the normal federal 

22 procedures for getting a signed contract based on 
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1 the RFPs. So, that is the best that I can do and, 

2 personally, I think that is perfectly adequate for 

3 us, based on the quality of TRs that we are now 

4 getting, which are night and day improvement over 

5 the TAPs of past sunset reviews.

6 Next and my final few words are to the 

7 NOSB members. I know that all of you were voting 

8 on a lot of materials this week. It is quite 

9 stressful. I know you have read the written 

10 comments. I know. I have heard telephone calls 

11 and numbers of hours and responses from people. 

12 Some people start the second the first comment is 

13 posted, like Harold Austin, and I think Ashley 

14 starts the second they start getting posted. 

15 Others of us wait until we can look at the whole 

16 lot all at once and take an entire week off work 

17 and spend 40 hours working on it.

18 I know that each of you NOSB members 

19 have worked to review all of the materials against 

20 the OFPA criteria. We have discussed this many 

21 times on subcommittees and in Executive. We know 

22 it is not a straightforward test. It is not a 
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1 simple yes and no. The reality is far more 

2 complex.

3 As a person trained in science, I look 

4 for a lot of facts from peer-reviewed research, 

5 articles, and I assess the probabilities. But as 

6 a person trained in ecosystem analysis, I also look 

7 at every material as it might be applied as part 

8 of a whole system, with all that implies for 

9 synergy. As a person trained in law, I look for 

10 equity, balancing the hardships, because whatever 

11 we decide in our voting this week, NOSB members, 

12 we will negatively potentially impact some 

13 stakeholders and positively impact others. And we 

14 consider many of these stakeholders to be our 

15 personal friends and colleagues. So, it is not 

16 easy.

17 One of the public comments I read in the 

18 last week or so, there was a quote from Albert 

19 Einstein. We can't solve problems by using the 

20 same kind of thinking that we use when we created 

21 them. I agree with that.

22 So, as we make our decisions, I ask all 
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1 of the NOSB members to look for positive long-term 

2 systems-based solutions when you look at these 

3 materials that you are going to be voting on and 

4 always keep the whole picture of organics in clear 

5 view. Don't get lost in the process and, above 

6 all, be kind and compassionate to one another. 

7 So, thank you.

8 Our final presentation before the break 

9 is Dr. Lisa Brines. She is the National List 

10 Manager and she will present the materials update 

11 and summary of new and outstanding petitions.

12 DR. BRINES: Good morning, everyone. 

13 Yes, I will try and make up a little bit if time 

14 here. Thanks.

15 So, as a reminder, for all materials 

16 that are on the agenda for this week's meeting, 

17 materials are evaluated against specific criteria, 

18 which are provided for in the Organic Food 

19 Production Act of 1990. And all documents the 

20 Board is reviewing are aligned with those criteria, 

21 including the petitions themselves, the technical 

22 evaluation reports, and the NOSB checklist.
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1 There are different criteria for 

2 evaluation of materials that are under review for 

3 production uses, proper livestock uses versus 

4 handling. And in addition, there are other 

5 criteria that also apply to synthetic processing 

6 aids and adjuvants that are provided for in the 

7 regulations at 205.600(b).

8 So at this meeting, the Board will be 

9 making recommendations on six materials that have 

10 been petitioned for use in production and handling. 

11 In addition, there are 198 material listings that 

12 will be considered under the Sunset 2017 review. 

13 And again, this is the second meeting at which those 

14 sunset materials will be considered and the Board 

15 will need to complete its review of the Sunset 2017 

16 materials at this meeting. 

17 And again, as Jean mentioned earlier, 

18 some of those materials also have distinct separate 

19 proposals that are under consideration for 

20 annotation changes but those are not considered 

21 part of the sunset process and will be considered 

22 separately. As part of that review, if those 
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1 separate proposals need to be considered or 

2 postponed to a future meeting, that is certainly 

3 an option.

4 Okay, so as far as the crop materials 

5 on this meeting's agenda, there are four petitions 

6 that will be considered: laminarin petition to 

7 remove one of the uses of lignin sulfonate from the 

8 National List; a petition to add sulfuric acid; and 

9 a petition to add seaweed extracts or aquatic plant 

10 extracts to the National List.

11 In addition, there are several 

12 petitions that are currently under subcommittee 

13 review and will be considered by the full Board at 

14 a future NOSB meeting. Those include a petition 

15 for aluminum sulfate, a petition to amend or add 

16 a new annotation for ash from manure burning on 

17 Section 205.602 of the National List, a petition 

18 to add soy wax to the National List for log-grown 

19 mushroom production, and a system to add squid and 

20 squid byproducts to the National List as a 

21 fertility input.

22 And currently, there is a technical 
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1 report under development for the squid petition and 

2 a technical report is under review for the crops 

3 committee for aluminum sulfate.

4 Just recently, we did have one petition 

5 that was withdrawn from review from the crops 

6 committee, which was the petition for anaerobic 

7 digestate, which has been pH adjusted with sulfuric 

8 acid. We understand that that petition may be 

9 revised and resubmitted to the Board at a future 

10 date but the current petition is posted on the NOP 

11 website for petitioned substances.

12 For livestock materials, there are not 

13 petitions that will be considered at this meeting. 

14 However, there are several under subcommittee 

15 review. We do have a trio of materials that have 

16 all been petitioned by different petitioners for 

17 use in poultry litter treatment and those include 

18 acid-activated bentonite, aluminum sulfate, and 

19 sodium bisulfate. And in addition, there are 

20 still ten aquaculture petitions that are currently 

21 under review.

22 For handling, the Handling Committee 
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1 will consider two petitions at this meeting. 

2 First, is the petition for sodium lactate and 

3 potassium lactate and, secondly a petition to amend 

4 the annotation for flavors on the National List.

5 Okay, in addition, there are two other 

6 petitions that are currently under subcommittee 

7 review that will be considered at future NOSB 

8 meetings. The first is a petition for 

9 hypocholorous acid and a technical report for that 

10 substance is currently posted on the NOP website. 

11 And in addition, there is a petition to add oak 

12 beta-glucan to Section 205.606 of the National 

13 List.

14 Okay, so one reminder on voting 

15 procedures. So, for petitioned substances, the 

16 NOSB will typically vote on two motions. The first 

17 is for materials that have not been previously 

18 classified by the Board. So, those motions will 

19 generally be to classify the substances either 

20 synthetic or non-synthetic. That is for the 

21 production or handling -- correction crop 

22 production or livestock production uses. And then 
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1 in addition for some handling materials, they may 

2 also be classified as agricultural or 

3 non-agricultural. Typically, that second motion 

4 for petitions is the motion to list, remove, or 

5 amend the National List.

6 And as specified by OFPA, a two-thirds 

7 majority is needed for any decisive motion. So, 

8 typically, we have a Board of 15 members, which is 

9 ten votes but with 14 voting members, that 

10 two-thirds majority is still a 10 votes that is 

11 needed. So, for those 14-vote motions, that 

12 includes 10 votes.

13 For sunset 2017 materials, again, this 

14 includes the majority of materials that are on the 

15 National List which are scheduled to sunset over 

16 several dates in 2017. The complete list of 2017 

17 sunset materials is on the agenda. There are 

18 several sunset dates associated with those. Those 

19 are published in our program handbook. The 

20 earliest sunset 2017 date is in March, 2017.

21 And again, for annotation changes, 

22 there are several of them being considered by the 
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1 Board at this meeting. Again, those are being 

2 considered separate from the sunset process. If 

3 they are recommended by the Board, they will 

4 proceed on a separate regulatory track but because 

5 they are not tied to the sunset time line, any of 

6 those annotations changes also can be considered 

7 at future NOSB meetings. So, again, for those 

8 materials that are currently on this meeting's 

9 agenda, but for other materials, they can be added 

10 to the work agenda of the Board to be considered 

11 a future Board meetings.

12 A couple quick previews for the Sunset 

13 2018 materials. There are 15 listings for crop and 

14 handling materials, which are scheduled to sunset 

15 in 2018 either in May or in November of that year. 

16 So, those will start consideration by the Board at 

17 the public meeting next spring and conclude their 

18 review in the fall of next year.

19 And we have several technical reports 

20 that are in development. None of these are 

21 available just yet but we expect them to be 

22 available in early 2016. Those include peracetic 
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1 acid for crop use and several handling materials, 

2 including carrageenan, cellulose, glucono 

3 delta-lactone, and potassium hydroxide. A subset 

4 of those materials are just limited scope technical 

5 reports but that will be indicated on the report 

6 when it is posted online.

7 And then finally, again, as I mentioned 

8 earlier, all of the materials and their sunset base 

9 are publicly posted in a handbook at NOP 5611. So, 

10 it includes the full listing, as well as sunset 

11 dates for each material on the National List.

12 And again, just a quick update on the 

13 petition process. As you remember, the Board had 

14 passed a series of recommendations in April 2014 

15 to update the National List petition process, which 

16 included several changes, some to the allowance for 

17 confidential business information and a second 

18 recommendation to revise the petition process to 

19 make it a more streamlined process for annotation 

20 changes and other changes to materials that are 

21 already on the list.

22 So, we are continuing to work on those. 
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1 They won't become effective until we publish the 

2 updated petition guidelines in the Federal 

3 Register. So, in the interim, we are continuing 

4 to receive petitions that align with the current 

5 petition guidelines that were published in 2007, 

6 some of which do have confidential business 

7 information, although in our eligibility review, 

8 those materials were continuing to notify the 

9 petitioners of this outstanding recommendation to 

10 see if they want to make amendments based on that.

11 And that's all I have for today, unless 

12 there are any questions. Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are there any 

14 questions from the Board for Dr. Brines?

15 Thank you, Lisa.

16 We are going to be taking a break in just 

17 a couple of seconds. I do want to point out that 

18 the next presentation by Dr. Sonny Ramaswamy will 

19 also be done via video live from Washington, D.C. 

20 And should we have any technical difficulties with 

21 that, which hopefully I don't anticipate, I would 

22 like to point out that it will mean that the first 
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1 few of the public commenters may be on deck by as 

2 early as 15 minutes from now and that is Nicole 

3 Dehne, Nate Lewis, Nate Allen, Tom Stearns. So, 

4 your turn may become up earlier than you expect. 

5 And so, please, it would be most appreciative if 

6 you could be back in the room in time to either hear 

7 Sonny, which hopefully is the case, or start your 

8 public comment.

9 I will also point out we will be taking 

10 a 15-minute break so we would be coming back at 20 

11 minutes past 11, just five minutes late. So, that 

12 is not too bad. And we will break sharply at 1:00 

13 in order to go out and meet the demonstrators around 

14 the issue of hydroponics. They are going to be 

15 outside this conference center with speakers and 

16 it would be wonderful if we could all be out there 

17 to show our interest in the topic of concern to 

18 them.

19 So, we will take a 15-minute break now. 

20 Please, if you would, be back at 20 minutes past 

21 11:00. Thank you.

22 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 
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1 went off the record at 11:05 a.m. and resumed at 

2 11:23 a.m.)

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, I would like 

4 to ask Miles McEvoy if he would please introduce 

5 our next speaker. Miles.

6 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, I would like to 

7 introduce Dr. Sonny Ramaswamy. He is the Director 

8 of the National Institute of Food and Agriculture. 

9 Dr. Sonny Ramaswamy was appointed to serve as 

10 Director of USDA's National Institute of Food and 

11 Agriculture in May of 2012, as part of USDA's 

12 Research, Education, and Extension Mission, Dr. 

13 Ramaswamy oversees the NIFA awards funds for a wide 

14 range of extramural research, education, and 

15 extension projects that address the needs of 

16 farmers, ranchers, and agricultural producers. 

17 And he has a very extensive biography but Sonny, 

18 I will just turn it over to you so that you can 

19 explain the things that USDA is doing to support 

20 research in organic agriculture. Thank you for 

21 joining us today.

22 DR. RAMASWAMY: All right. Well, 
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1 thank you very much. Can everybody hear me? I'm 

2 getting feedback. Could you maybe mute the 

3 telephone thing there?

4 MR. MCEVOY: We can hear you pretty 

5 well. I think if you just.

6 DR. RAMASWAMY: You can hear me? 

7 MR. MCEVOY: Yes.

8 DR. RAMASWAMY: Okay, I'm getting a lot 

9 of echoing and feedback here in my office. 

10 Regardless, I will just continue on.

11 Steven, I wonder if you can go ahead and 

12 mute the polycom device or whatever that is because 

13 that is the one that is giving the feedback. Okay, 

14 perfect. Thank you. Wow, that is so much better.

15 So, in any case, thanks for having me 

16 here. I appreciate Michelle Arsenault, 

17 particularly, and Miles as well accommodating me 

18 to come through this medium here. I promise you 

19 I will be with you when you meet in April here in

20 Washington, D.C. Unfortunately, I had to be in two 

21 different places, one of which is a congressionally 

22 mandated Foundation for Food and Agricultural 
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1 Research and I will come back to that entity in just 

2 a little bit. And we have a Board meeting here and 

3 that is congressionally mandated. And so I had to 

4 be here and I couldn't see myself flying out to 

5 Vermont, although I really, really wanted to go to 

6 Vermont this time of the year because of all the 

7 wonderful colors and, of course, more importantly, 

8 to be able to engage with you right there in the 

9 same room and have a conversation as well.

10 So, I think we have got about 35 minutes 

11 or so, per my clock on my computer here, and I want 

12 to speak only for about ten minutes or so and then 

13 leave a good bit of time for a conversation and I 

14 look forward to this conversation myself.

15 I can tell you that we have had, the 

16 National Institute of Food and Agriculture, has had 

17 an excellent relationship with the National 

18 Organic Standards Board itself and have had staff, 

19 NIFA staff not have been engaged with you, Matt 

20 Ngouajio and Steven Smith being the most recent 

21 individuals that have been engaged with you.

22 And actually here, oh, gosh, about 
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1 three years ago, it was when I first came onboard, 

2 I met with some of you on the National Organic 

3 Standards Board itself and I heard quite a bit from 

4 some of you either in person or by email separately, 

5 this is coming on over three years ago, about the 

6 need for NIFA to step up its game in regards to the 

7 support of the need for new knowledge and that our 

8 organic producers across need. And so we made a 

9 commitment, I, personally, made a commitment and 

10 we collectively at NIFA made a commitment that we 

11 are going to up our game.

12 

13 So, if you look at USDA at a broader 

14 level, strategic plan itself, and the research, 

15 education and economics mission area, strategic 

16 plan and then that sort of cascades down to NIFA 

17 as a strategic plan itself, which we developed and 

18 released this past year. So, all of these sort of 

19 cascade down into what NIFA does. We clearly 

20 articulated that from a science and education 

21 perspective. And education I use in the broadest 

22 of terms, both in regards to translation of 
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1 knowledge into innovations of solutions that is 

2 delivered, that is translated and delivered by our 

3 extension folks and also the education of people 

4 wanting to enter into the organic enterprises that 

5 might be through, for example, our beginning 

6 farmers and ranchers development initiative or 

7 other initiatives that we have got. And also 

8 people, young people that are studying at our 

9 universities and colleges in their education as 

10 well. So, we have made a commitment in our 

11 strategic plan as well that we will help develop 

12 and make available the knowledge that is necessary 

13 for our organic production systems in America to 

14 be a viable and thriving proposition.

15 And in line with that, starting, like 

16 I said, three years ago, we started incorporating 

17 based on input provided to us by various 

18 individuals in the organic community on how do we 

19 enhance our opportunities that we provide. Of 

20 course, we have got the organic transitions program 

21 and the Organic Agricultural Research and 

22 Extension Initiative. Together, they constitute 
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1 approximately about $23 million to $25 million per 

2 year. But we also made a commitment to more 

3 broadly, particularly in our flagship Competitive 

4 Grants Program, Agriculture and Food Research 

5 Initiative, to incorporate into the request for 

6 application, funding opportunities for the organic 

7 community. We did that and I will come back to that 

8 in just a little bit as well.

9 So, long story short, over the last few 

10 years now, we have really increased our efforts in 

11 these areas. And again, we got together with Anne 

12 Alonzo and Betsy Rakola and others. And in fact, 

13 we have also had multiple conversations and 

14 webinars and things internal to the agency itself, 

15 where our own agency staff has undergone training 

16 on how to support organic enterprises in our 

17 portfolio funding that we offer.

18 So, if you look at our portfolio 

19 funding, it is about $1.55 billion in fiscal year 

20 2015, we have got two big buckets of funds. One 

21 big bucket over about $800 million, $850 million 

22 to $900 million is what we refer to as supporting 
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1 particularly the land-grant universities, 

2 providing support the experiment station and 

3 cooperative extension service. And in that 

4 portfolio, Matt Ngouajio did an analysis and we are 

5 providing approximately about, at the land-grant 

6 universities and querying what the term organic, 

7 approximately about $5 million to $6 million per 

8 year are attributable to support of organic 

9 enterprises across the United States of America. 

10 And then you know, if you are interested, we can 

11 break it down by state as well and we can provide 

12 you those data. But at the composite level, it is 

13 between about $5 million and $6 million across the 

14 United States.

15 And the other big bucket that we receive 

16 is the competitive funding. In the competitive 

17 funding, we have got a whole bunch of, it is about 

18 $700 million or so. There is a whole bunch of lines 

19 in there, starting with the AFRI Program, the 

20 Agriculture and Food Research Initiative, 

21 especially Crops Research Initiative, the Organic 

22 Agricultural Research and Extension Initiative, 
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1 the Beginning Farmers and Ranchers Development 

2 Initiative, and on and on. There is a whole slew 

3 of them that we do. And in that portfolio funding, 

4 it is approximately about $25 million. In 2014 

5 about $25 million was made available in the 

6 competitive grants arena. And as I said, the 

7 biggest part of it, is, of course, the Organic 

8 Research and Extension Initiative itself.

9 And if you just look at the AFRI 

10 program, while we have received a few more grant 

11 proposals, in fact if you look at where we started 

12 in 2012 and tracking the data into 2013, into 2014, 

13 and into 2015 itself, there has been a nice increase 

14 in the number of proposals submitted to us in the 

15 AFRI program worth up to about $8 million this most 

16 recent year in 2014, where we have the data. But 

17 the ones that got funded, it is a very, very small 

18 amount of funding that has gone to organic efforts 

19 in our AFRI portfolio itself. And it is only 

20 about, in fact if I look at the actual data, there 

21 is a table that we have drafted, it is just a bit 

22 over a million dollars. So, just about a million 
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1 dollars has gone to organic enterprises.

2 And so there is a few reasons why. We 

3 are continuing to encourage people to apply to us, 

4 to our competitive grants portfolio. As I said, 

5 we have incorporated appropriate narrative into 

6 our request for applications as well. But in 

7 querying folks that are potential applicants, we 

8 have discovered that they would much rather go to 

9 the organic Agricultural Research and Extension 

10 Initiative and the Organic Transitions Program 

11 because the funding rate there is well above 20 

12 percent funding rate. That means at least one out 

13 of five or so grant proposals do get funded. 

14 In contrast, in AFRI, particularly in 

15 the plants area, it is about six percent funding 

16 rate. The average across the board and AFRI is 

17 only about 13 percent and in plants area very 

18 specifically, it is only about six percent or so.

19 Also, AFRI tends to have more of a 

20 fundamental science, sort of a flavor to it. And 

21 so oftentimes people that are wanting to work in 

22 the organic enterprise might find themselves 
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1 hard-pressed to come up with the fundamental 

2 questions, although we remind them that it is not 

3 necessary that you have to only undertake 

4 fundamental science in AFRI. We do have a lot of 

5 what I like to call as adaptive and integrative 

6 research as well, research and extension that is 

7 undertaken as well.

8 So, we are still trying to analyze the 

9 data and encourage people to submit their grant 

10 proposals to us in the organic community as well. 

11 And again, as I said, because the funding rate are 

12 so much higher in the other programs, particularly 

13 Organic Agriculture and Food Research and 

14 Extension Initiative, people aren't submitting as 

15 many proposals to u.

16 The second thing that we have done just 

17 as of last year is we have created a special program 

18 called the CARE program within AFRI itself, the 

19 Critical Agricultural Research, and Extension 

20 Program, CARE, C-A-R-E.

21 This particular program is to help 

22 producers meet their needs for the tools they need, 
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1 for the knowledge that they need in the immediate 

2 term, not some long-term fundamental science that 

3 needs to happen over the next five to ten years and 

4 somehow somebody comes along and translate that 

5 into knowledge that is of relevance to the end 

6 users. The CARE program has carved out as part of 

7 our AFRI Foundational Funds, a specific 

8 opportunity and I would urge you, the National 

9 Organic Standards Board to please convey this 

10 information, disseminate this information to the 

11 organic community that might ought to look at the 

12 CARE program itself as a possibility because it is 

13 very explicitly meant to help undertake the 

14 research and extensive efforts that result in 

15 immediate term, tools and technology, the 

16 knowledge that the producers can apply in their day 

17 to day endeavors as well. So, that is an area that 

18 you might want to encourage people to apply to.

19 And AMS has taken the lead in providing 

20 the Secretary, Secretary Vilsack, we have what is 

21 referred to as the white board report and I am sure 

22 you know everything there is to know about the white 
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1 board reports but NIFA provides information to 

2 those white board reports as well and a report was 

3 put together back just about a month ago, September 

4 the 15th and that was sent to AMS to be inserted 

5 into the report to the Secretary and it provides 

6 more detailed information of some of the things 

7 that I just discussed here over the last few 

8 minutes.

9 The last thing I want to discuss is the 

10 Foundation for Food and Agriculture Research. 

11 This is a new avatar that was created by the last 

12 Farm Bill. And as I said, the Board is going to 

13 be meeting here this week and I am going to be 

14 participating in it. And the organic community 

15 might want to look at the foundation. The Board 

16 has just been constituted. They have just hired 

17 an Executive Director, a woman named Sally Rockey 

18 who used to work for NIFA back in the old days. 

19 So you might, if there are things that 

20 the National Organic Standards Board has 

21 discovered that are going a-begging, you might want 

22 to put together concept notes, white papers on 
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1 areas that you think that the Foundation for Food 

2 and Agriculture Research might be able to provide 

3 you additional funding.

4 Incidentally, what Congress said in the 

5 Farm Bill is that the Foundation for Food and Ag 

6 Research needs to be complementary and 

7 supplementary to what we do and not duplicative. 

8 And if the organic community feels like that they 

9 are not getting enough resources being deployed, 

10 you might want to think of what sorts of areas need 

11 to be supported and send those concept notes, those 

12 white papers, you can send them to me, I am on the 

13 Board; the Secretary, Dr. Woteki, Catherine 

14 Woteki; the Under Secretary for Research, 

15 Education and Economics; Chavonda Jacobs-Young, 

16 the Administrator for Agricultural and Research 

17 Service, France Cordova, the head of the National 

18 Science Foundation and the head of NIFA, i.e., 

19 myself, serve on the Board in an ex officio 

20 capacity.

21 So, if you have got some ideas, send 

22 them to me. You have got good representation. 
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1 The organic community has good representation on 

2 the Board. Nancy Kramer, she is from North 

3 Carolina State University. She is on the Board as 

4 well. And there are others on that Board that are 

5 also deeply interested in the enterprise that you 

6 all are interested in as well. So you might want 

7 to go ahead and send any thoughts that you might 

8 have to me.

9 The last thing I wanted to share with 

10 you is the two questions that I received. And the 

11 first question was whether we, NIFA, had inserted 

12 the appropriate language in regards to the request 

13 for applications and that is opportunities for 

14 organic effort in the Agriculture and Food Research 

15 Initiative. The short answer is yes, it has been 

16 done. And I would encourage you to take a look at 

17 it. If we need to strengthen the language, let us 

18 know, please, and we will certainly strengthen the 

19 language. If you go to our website at 

20 NIFA.USA.gov, the very front page has grant 

21 opportunities. So if you just put AFRI in there, 

22 it will pull up the request for applications. Take 
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1 a look at the language that we have inserted in 

2 there. If it is not doing what you want it to do, 

3 let us know and I promise you we will consider it 

4 and, as possible, we will incorporate it as well.

5 The second thing that I wanted to share 

6 with you, there was also a question about the 

7 capacity-building grants that we offer up to the 

8 1890, the historically black institutions, the 

9 historically black land-grant universities. 

10 Currently, the RFA, request for application, does 

11 not include verbiage pertaining to organic. I 

12 discovered it just today, as I prepared to engage 

13 with you. And I have sent an email to the relevant 

14 folks within NIFA that manage that program and I 

15 have asked them to insert appropriate language. 

16 And I can tell you I have received an email from 

17 them just a few minutes ago and they are on it. And 

18 the next go-round, which will come out sometime in 

19 February, will include appropriate language in the 

20 capacity-building grounds as well for the 1890s 

21 institutions.

22 I have also had people look at our 
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1 specialty grants research initiative. This is on 

2 fruit and vegetables. It does not have language 

3 pertaining to organics. And again, I have toggled 

4 our folks to see how we can incorporate relevant 

5 language not unlike what we did with AFRI itself.

6 And last but not least, the other grants 

7 program that we have got is the Biotechnology Risk 

8 Assessment Grants Program, the BRAG program. And 

9 in it, we have one of the objective, one of the goals 

10 that we want to support is in the realm of organics 

11 and the RFA includes information relevant to 

12 organics in there.

13 The second question that was asked of 

14 me was the comments that we request on our request 

15 for applications and other works that we do, 

16 particularly in AFRI, are those comments to be 

17 submitted within six months or after the RFA comes 

18 out, immediately after issuance of the request for 

19 application. The short answer is we say that we 

20 would like to receive comments within six months 

21 of the release dates of the request for 

22 applications. And we do get a number of people 
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1 submitting comments but I can tell you also that 

2 we get comments throughout the year, through a 

3 website we have created and that information is not 

4 destroyed. It is actually utilized. And so Matt 

5 Ngouajio and Steve Smith and the others of our staff 

6 utilize every bit of information that is provided 

7 to us through the -- the input that is provided us 

8 by the organic community as well.

9 So with that, I am going to go ahead and 

10 stop and see if folks have any questions.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

12 for your comments. I know that Zea Sonnabend 

13 really wanted to ask you some questions. 

14 Unfortunately, she is on her way from Philadelphia; 

15 her plane was canceled. So, I would like to --

16 DR. RAMASWAMY: Jean, are you going to 

17 be moderating this in regards to the questions to 

18 be asked? Because maybe it is all muted now. Can 

19 you hear me okay? Can you hear me? Now you can? 

20 Okay.

21 Dr. Ramaswamy, Zea Sonnabend would like 

22 to have asked you some questions. She may need to 
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1 follow-up by email, however, because she is still 

2 delayed at the airport. But I know that Dr. 

3 Walker, who is a research agricultural professor 

4 may have some additional follow-up questions for 

5 you, Calvin.

6 DR. RAMASWAMY: Okay, that works. 

7 Obviously, this medium of my being here in D.C. and 

8 utilizing Skype, it works to an extent. But that 

9 interactivity may not be possible. So yes, 

10 absolutely. I look forward to receiving an email 

11 or emails from our colleagues on the National 

12 Organic Standards Board.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calvin, do you have 

14 any more questions?

15 MEMBER WALKER: I'll be somewhat like 

16 Pontius Pilate. I have no other questions.

17 The questions that Dr. Ramaswamy had 

18 addressed were the three that I submitted.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, thank you, 

20 Dr. Walker.

21 Question from Dr. Taylor.

22 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you so much for 
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1 your presentation, Dr. Ramaswamy.

2 We have gathered information in regard 

3 to the research priorities that address issues of 

4 concern and interest within the organic community 

5 and also concerns of interest that have come up 

6 within the Board meetings, the subcommittee 

7 meetings. And we have put together a document, 

8 research priorities for the 2015 year and the 

9 previous Board meeting fall meeting years as well. 

10 Where should this type of information be best 

11 brought together before you are a committee so that 

12 the relevant information that we have gathered will 

13 impact the request in the request for a proposal?

14 DR. RAMASWAMY: Okay. That question 

15 that came through is pretty garbled. So, Steven, 

16 can you repeat the question for me, please?

17 Were you able to listen to the question? 

18 Then, can you repeat it? Can somebody repeat it? 

19 Because it was garbled and a lot of echoing as well.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, I could try to 

21 repeat it. Can you hear me? Can you hear me?

22 DR. RAMASWAMY: Yes, I can hear you. 
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The question from 

2 Dr. Taylor is that the National Organic Standards 

3 Board has put together its research priorities 

4 document and she would like to understand more 

5 clearly where this information and recommendation 

6 could be sent that would most effectively get 

7 appropriate funding.

8 DR. RAMASWAMY: Got it. So, indeed, 

9 every year we receive the research priorities from 

10 the National Organic Standards Board and our 

11 colleague at the AMS are very kind and they share 

12 that with us as well. And I would say that we take 

13 those research priorities and questions to heart 

14 and that is incorporated into our request for 

15 applications in different parts, whether it is in 

16 the Organic Agricultural Research and Extension 

17 Initiative, or in the AFRI program, or in the 

18 Beginning Farmers and Ranchers Development 

19 Program. There is different places where we can 

20 incorporate those questions and priorities, 

21 including, by the way, in the support of 

22 experimentations and extension. So, we 
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1 appreciate your providing those priorities and I 

2 would say you could send them to me directly. My 

3 email address is Sonny, S-O-N-N-Y, at 

4 NIFA.usda.gov and I will be certain to get it out.

5 I know that Matt Ngouajio and Steven 

6 Smith get it as well. And as I said earlier, AMS 

7 is very, very helpful as well. So, we do get those 

8 questions sent to us from different places but I 

9 would ask you to go ahead and send it to me directly 

10 as well. And I promise you we will look at those 

11 and incorporate those as appropriate, as relevant, 

12 into our priorities.

13 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: A question from Dr. 

15 Thicke.

16 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you for your 

17 comment and your information. One of the issues 

18 that the organic community is struggling with is 

19 the GMO contamination of organic crops. And it can 

20 undermine markets, it can disqualify products, and 

21 so on.

22 And we feel like we are doing as much 
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1 as we can. And I am wondering if USDA, through NIFA 

2 or other research is doing anything to reduce 

3 contamination from the conventional side of 

4 agriculture.

5 DR. RAMASWAMY: No. Yes, well, so as 

6 I said earlier, within the BRAG Program, the 

7 Biotechnology Risk Assessment Grants Program, we 

8 do have efforts at looking at contamination of the 

9 organic production systems.

10 Your question is in regards to 

11 conventional agriculture and its impacts. And I 

12 know for a fact, as some of know I used to be at 

13 Oregon State University back in a former life, and 

14 I know for a fact that the folks at Oregon State 

15 University have been working on this issue of 

16 conventional versus organically produced seed 

17 because that is, in Oregon, the big thing is to 

18 produce seed, for example, vegetable seed.

19 And Oregon State University has 

20 deployed funding from the states and the funding 

21 that we send in regards to support of 

22 experimentation and extension and their 
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1 undertaking studies that they do this thing called 

2 pinning, as they call it, that creates sort of a 

3 boundary around the crops that they are growing. 

4 But there is some research that is going on at 

5 Oregon State University and at a few other 

6 institutions as well.

7 I know that the folks at Indiana 

8 University -- pardon me -- Purdue University in 

9 Indiana have also started thinking of how to 

10 support the organic producers not only in regards 

11 to conventional agriculture seed contamination, 

12 pollination and things like that but also in 

13 regards to the use of pesticides for example. So, 

14 you have a drift occurring and that might have an 

15 impact on organically produced crops. And so I 

16 know Purdue University folks have been addressing 

17 it, including in the viticulture area as well.

18 So, if you wish, we could go ahead and 

19 have an inventory done across the United States 

20 what sort of effort is going on and the kind of work 

21 that needs to mitigate the impact of conventional 

22 practices on the organic. And we can get you that 
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1 information if you are so interested.

2 MEMBER THICKE: That would be great to 

3 have that information but it would also be good if 

4 you could, in your research proposal request, have 

5 some initiative to have researchers working on 

6 that.

7 DR. RAMASWAMY: Yes. I understand. 

8 Yes, that is a good point. And to tell you the 

9 truth, I don't know if it is present portfolio 

10 funding but I will certainly -- I'm looking for my 

11 pen here so I don't forget this. So, I am making 

12 an note of it. I'm going to ask my staff if we 

13 indeed have that.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. That is 

15 very good. Are there further comments or 

16 questions from the members of the NOSB?

17 Yes, question. Dr. Walker.

18 MEMBER WALKER: I have one. I think it 

19 was addressed last week but I wanted to hear it from 

20 Dr. Ramaswamy to share it with the group. I think 

21 I talked to one of your administrators on last 

22 Wednesday. 
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1 We were speaking in terms of the organic 

2 community needs a lot of research, needs a lot of 

3 help. But many times when grants are written, 

4 sometime the reviewer may not have, we believe, a 

5 deep appreciation for organic. Could you speak to 

6 the selection of reviewers for proposals such as 

7 organic and sustainable agriculture?

8 DR. RAMASWAMY: Okay, Dr. Walker, I 

9 only caught the last part of it. Can somebody 

10 repeat that?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, okay. I will 

12 try to repeat. Dr. Walker is concerned that it is 

13 often not that easy to get a good quality funding 

14 at universities for organic agriculture and he is 

15 interested in knowing what kinds of peoples may 

16 perhaps be on the review panels looking at these 

17 proposals that might have a broader way of 

18 understanding modern trends in agriculture. And 

19 this is certainly common, a I found, at the 

20 University of Vermont and all land-grant colleges, 

21 getting money for organic is always much more 

22 difficult.
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1 DR. RAMASWAMY: Yes, I understand. 

2 So, here going back actually about three years ago 

3 we asked for your help for the National Organic 

4 Standards Board's help and the organic community's 

5 help in a fine potential panelist forest. Not only 

6 panelist, but also individuals that would do ad hoc 

7 reviews, offer ad hoc reviews.

8 So, very specifically, on the question 

9 in regards to impacts on food quality, that is maybe 

10 it is the sensory aspects of it, maybe it has got 

11 the market basket analysis aspects to it, it has 

12 got the healthfulness traits of the organically 

13 produced fruit, vegetables, and produce and things 

14 like that. I don't know the specific answer to how 

15 we go about doing it but I make a note of it.

16 Dr. Walker, we will get you a response 

17 to that as well. Okay?

18 And really, needless to say, it is 

19 critically important. If you could please help us 

20 in helping you by unifying people that can actually 

21 serve on panels that can, indeed, ask these types 

22 of questions about food quality. And I don't know 
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1 in the RFA is not unlike the question that was asked 

2 previously about impact of conventional production 

3 facilities on organic and is it in our RFAs. I 

4 don't know if in our RFAs explicitly we have 

5 incorporated looking at food quality issues as well 

6 but again, this is something for me to toggle my 

7 staff on and we will get back to you.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any further 

9 questions for the Board?

10 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes, I have one 

11 question.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Question. Dr. 

13 Taylor has a question.

14 MEMBER TAYLOR: I'm wondering would 

15 you think that it might be possible, I know I am 

16 from a 1890 land-grant institution and we are often 

17 heavily courted by GMO agriculture, agribusiness, 

18 Monsanto, and such, are strongly with the student 

19 body, strongly within the college. And I wondered 

20 if it might be possible for your agency, your 

21 organization, as well as the National Organic 

22 Program to maybe merge on some kind of education 
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1 and training capacity-building that would share 

2 the information and knowledge about organic 

3 farming from a different perspective and also 

4 provide avenues of internship and training for the 

5 farmers, for our students, coming from your agency 

6 and engaging also the National Organic Program.

7 DR. RAMASWAMY: So, Dr. Taylor, I only 

8 caught the occasional word in there, internships 

9 and things like that.

10 If the Chair could go ahead and repeat 

11 the question for me, please.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, the interest 

13 here is to be able to further expand the 

14 understanding of the kinds of agricultural 

15 research that might take place by working closely 

16 with the National Organic Program and with more of 

17 the land-grant universities and the students so 

18 there is a broader understanding of the work that 

19 your organization does.

20 Dr. Taylor also is at a land-grant 

21 university with all of its delights and drawbacks.

22 DR. RAMASWAMY: And so I don't know --
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1 you know we have not done an inventory across the 

2 United States and looking at what are some things 

3 that are going on to enhance the understanding of 

4 students but I can give you examples from several 

5 universities that I traveled to or that I know of 

6 personally where they do have, for example, either 

7 courses, experiential educational opportunities, 

8 or student-run organic community supportive 

9 agriculture-type endeavors. I was in Lafayette, 

10 Indiana just last Friday and I got to see the 

11 student-run organic farm that is out there. The 

12 students that are in agriculture, or students in 

13 business, students in engineering, from throughout 

14 the university, there is about a couple hundred 

15 kids that are part of the farm. So, it is not just 

16 going and working in the soil and planting plants 

17 and harvesting and all that but what they have done 

18 is create a certificate program and/or actual 

19 courses for which you get credits. So, that sort 

20 of effort is going on at Michigan State University, 

21 at Oregon State University, University of 

22 Wisconsin, at University of Florida, and other 
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1 places as well. But we have not taken that 

2 comprehensive survey of who is doing what, how, et 

3 cetera. 

4 You know, along with the increasing 

5 interest in food production systems and organic 

6 food, et cetera, there has also been an increase 

7 in the number of such courses and the number of 

8 experiential opportunities and things like that, 

9 too.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

11 very much. Any further questions? No? Okay, 

12 great. I think that we would all like to thank you 

13 very much indeed for being here today. I know it 

14 was very difficult to fit it into your schedule. 

15 We very much appreciate it and this has been a good 

16 dialogue and I know that you will receive 

17 additional emails and communications from members 

18 of the Board as the month goes by. Thank you.

19 DR. RAMASWAMY: All right. Thanks so 

20 much. I look forward to those emails and I know 

21 that I have got to do my homework on two questions. 

22 One is on conventional and organics, are they in 
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1 our RFAs. And the second one is Dr. Walker's 

2 question on the food quality type or them being 

3 funded -- do we have panelists that can recognize 

4 it and in our RFAs.

5 I think those are the two that I have 

6 right now as my homework and look forward to 

7 receiving more emails from you folks and we will 

8 get back to you in short order. Okay?

9 Thanks again. I will see you at NOC in 

10 April.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

12 much. And just a reminder to everybody out in the 

13 audience that every year we do work hard in our 

14 subcommittees to develop and identify specific 

15 major items that we hear from you that are the most 

16 critical in terms of necessary research 

17 priorities. And it is always tough and land-grant 

18 universities are getting the right kind of grant 

19 money to help to work on research that involves 

20 organic agriculture, as we all know if we have 

21 worked in universities.

22 So, anything that you can get to us 
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1 during the year will help to inform the work of the 

2 materials subcommittee and Dr. Taylor was the lead 

3 person in putting that document together this year 

4 and we continue with that work on an annual basis.

5 At this point in the agenda, we are now 

6 about to start doing public comments. And I would 

7 like to begin to invite the people to come up. The 

8 first person who is going to be presenting will be 

9 Nicole Dehne from the NOFA-Vermont and she will be 

10 followed by Nate Lewis from Organic Trade 

11 Association on deck.

12 I know that Michelle has some 

13 administrative, apart from wheeling chairs around 

14 right now, she has some administrative comments to 

15 make. She is the person that runs the time clock. 

16 And Michelle, would you like to give out your 

17 instructions over the mike to tell them what they 

18 need to be doing?

19 MS. ARSENAULT: So, I know most people 

20 in the room are old hat at this but if not, if you 

21 are new, we have a timer on the podium and you will 

22 see three lights green -- yellow, orange, and 
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1 green. And when you start talking, I will set the 

2 timer. So, you can come up to the podium and start 

3 talking.

4 If you have a PowerPoint presentation, 

5 I had a slide advancer here. So, I know who has 

6 PowerPoint presentations. So, just look for that 

7 and you can advance your own slides.

8 We had a couple of cancellations. So, 

9 people that are going a little bit later in the 

10 afternoon, your time may be adjusted by five or ten 

11 minutes or so. So, don't leave the room with 30 

12 seconds to spare.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, thank you. 

14 The first speaker, Nicole Dehne.

15 MS. DEHNE: Okay, can you hear me? 

16 Good morning. My name is Nicole Dehne. I 

17 coordinate NOFA-Vermont's Organic Certification 

18 Program, Vermont Organic Farmers. I would like to 

19 welcome the Board, NOP staff, and audience members 

20 to the Green Mountain State. Although, of course, 

21 at this time of year, our mountains aren't so green 

22 but I do hope that everyone gets a chance to go 
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1 outside and catch some of the fall foliage before 

2 it is all gone.

3 VOF has been certifying organic farms 

4 and processors since 1985. This year, we will have 

5 certified more than 600 organic producers in the 

6 state. We are fortunate in Vermont to have a 

7 thriving local and organic movement. Vermont has, 

8 and I think you are going to hear this statistic 

9 a few more times, but Vermont has more organic farms 

10 per capita than any other state and we have 

11 knowledgeable consumers that support these farms 

12 by purchasing the highest percentage of local food 

13 nationwide.

14 And I should warn you with these 

15 statistics that, while you are here, there is no 

16 shortage of delicious organic food. So, it is up 

17 to you to monitor your own intake and there might 

18 even come a time when you need to cut yourself off 

19 or risk some serious overeating. And of course, 

20 please take considerable care when sampling our 

21 cheeses.

22 So, speaking of eating delicious 
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1 organic food, I would like to invite everyone to 

2 an event Tuesday evening from 6:00 to 9:00 here at 

3 the Stoweflake in the Stowe Room and Atrium to 

4 celebrate 25 years of organic certification. 

5 Thanks to our wonderful sponsors, we will be 

6 featuring product from Vermont Organic Growers, 

7 including organic beer and wine made from organic 

8 grapes -- I wanted to make sure I got that right 

9 -- as well as music, dancing, and roasting 

10 marshmallows.

11 So, please join us tomorrow night to 

12 celebrate everything we have accomplished together 

13 over the last 25 years.

14 There is a concerning lack of farmer 

15 voice and participation in the national 

16 conversation about the organic label. It is 

17 extremely valuable to have the NOSB meeting move 

18 around the country to give organic producers from 

19 different regions the opportunity to get their 

20 voices heard. We have made a real concerted effort 

21 to get our certified producers to both attend this 

22 meeting this week and also to sign up for public 
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1 comments to address the Board.

2 The good news is that we have got a lot 

3 of farmers that signed up. So, today and tomorrow, 

4 you will be hearing them discuss the topics that 

5 mean a great deal to them and their businesses. 

6 Some of the topics that will be discussed include 

7 about lime sulfur and copper fungicides and how 

8 critical those tools are for our farmers, about the 

9 importance of having moxidectin and fenbendazole 

10 to use only in emergencies to improve the health 

11 of their organic animals.

12 You will hear a lot about hydroponics 

13 and about soil being at the heart of what it means 

14 to be an organic grower. There will also be 

15 growers talking about using biodegradable 

16 bio-based mulch as an alternative to black plastic, 

17 and about GMOs and the material subcommittee's 

18 prevention strategy guidance.

19 And lastly, you will also hear from a 

20 maple producer about how organic maple standards 

21 need to be addressed at a national level.

22 So, I would really like to encourage the 
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1 Board to make the most of the opportunity that we 

2 have these farmers here to ask questions of them, 

3 about how their businesses are affected by the 

4 proposed changes to the rule and the National List 

5 and I just want to thank the Board for the 

6 opportunity to talk today and again warn you about 

7 watching yourself around our cheese.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Nicole. 

9 Are there questions for Nicole? Thank you.

10 The next speaker is Nate Lewis and he 

11 will be followed by Nathan Allen on deck.

12 MR. LEWIS: Hello, distinguished 

13 members of the Board. Thanks for this opportunity 

14 to provide you with comments on your 

15 recommendations and thank you for all your hard 

16 work to the seemingly insurmountable challenge to 

17 Sunset 2017. We are only a few hundred votes away. 

18 So, hang in there.

19 My name is Nate Lewis and in my role at 

20 OTA, I work directly with organic farmer members 

21 and organic farmer governed organizations across 

22 the country and across the world. OTA members 
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1 truly guide our organization by engaging directly 

2 with our comment development process and by voting 

3 for our Board of Directors. It is these features 

4 of our organization's transparent engagement and 

5 governance, which put us in a strong position to 

6 provide comments to you on the necessity of 

7 substances allowed in organic farming.

8 Necessity is one of the OFPA criteria 

9 for inclusion on the National List and one of the 

10 factors you must consider when deciding whether to 

11 recommend removal or relisting for any given 

12 substance. It is critical that when assessing 

13 necessity, we viewed the use of the substance 

14 through the lens of commercial viability. Organic 

15 farmers must be able to produce their crops in 

16 sufficient quality and quantity to remain 

17 financially viable and if the removal of a 

18 particular substance will jeopardize a farmer's 

19 financial viability, that substance is necessary.

20 Sometimes new information about health 

21 or environmental risks or shifting attitudes about 

22 organic production principles may outweigh 
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1 necessity when considering to remove or relist 

2 substances.

3 Based on OTA's role as an industry 

4 organizing governed and driven directly by organic 

5 certificate holders, our comments focus on 

6 necessity. Organic farmers themselves are in a 

7 better position than any of us to know whether they 

8 could stay in business without a particular 

9 substance.

10 OTA submitted the petition to remove 

11 lignin sulfonate as a flotation aid because the 

12 organic industry told us this substance was no 

13 longer necessary. Sheds packing fruit that sink 

14 in water, like pears, have modernized their 

15 equipment or used alternative substance like 

16 sodium silicate. Lignin sulfonate is no longer 

17 necessary because it is no longer in use and its 

18 removal will not affect organic businesses' 

19 abilities to remain financially viable.

20 OTA supports removing ivermectin as an 

21 emergency parasiticide in organic dairy 

22 production. We support removing ivermectin 
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1 because feedback from our organic dairy producer 

2 members indicates that alternatives fenbendazole 

3 and moxidectin are effective. This substance is 

4 no longer necessary because alternatives exist and 

5 have gained the trust of organic farmers. Its 

6 removal will not affect organic businesses' 

7 ability to remain financially viable.

8 In contrast, however, OTA does support 

9 continuing the allowance of ethylene for 

10 regulation of pineapple flowering. Organic 

11 pineapple farmers who get their crops to market via 

12 wholesale supply chains must produce pineapples in 

13 sufficient quantity and quality to satisfy those 

14 market demands and they need ethylene to do this. 

15 Ethylene is necessary for these organic 

16 businesses' continued financial viability and it 

17 should be retained on the national list.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Nate. 

20 Questions for Nate? Yes, Dr. Walker.

21 MEMBER WALKER: The views on 

22 ivermectin has been kind of broad. How many was 
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1 in your survey that you all did that use ivermectin? 

2 I know CCOL supported the listing of all three.

3 MR. LEWIS: I think you would have to 

4 refer to our written comments on the specific 

5 comments. I tried not to fill up my brain with all 

6 that specific detail. It was overwhelming in 

7 support of removing ivermectin from our membership 

8 via both the sunset survey and direct feedback from 

9 our membership.

10 Nate, is that something you could look 

11 up and maybe get to Calvin afterwards?

12 MR. LEWIS: Sure.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Calvin, do 

14 you want to follow up?

15 MEMBER WALKER: Would OTA have any 

16 problem if it was approved? Because it is only 

17 used for emergency situations.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calvin, your voice 

19 is so sweet and quiet, we can't hear you. Could 

20 you try again?

21 MEMBER WALKER: The question I had was 

22 that many of these parasiticides are used in 
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1 emergency situations. It is not like it is used 

2 daily.

3 MR. LEWIS: Right.

4 MEMBER WALKER: And I am torn, as a 

5 voter. I am looking at ivermectin, moxidectin, 

6 and fenbendazole all being approved because it 

7 seems like they all are needed still because they 

8 are not used on a daily basis.

9 MR. LEWIS: Right. So, I suppose we 

10 wouldn't be opposed to its retention on the list 

11 but, in the spirit of continuous improvement, this 

12 is a substance that could be removed and continue 

13 to drive the process forward and maintain the trust 

14 and the label.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other questions 

16 for Nate? Thanks very much.

17 The next speaker is Nathan Allen and he 

18 will be followed by Tom Stearns.

19 Is Nathan here? Nathan Allen from 

20 Aspire Food Group and Little Herds. Nathan, are 

21 you there? No.

22 So, Tom, that means that you are up.
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1 MR. STEARNS: Six minutes, right?

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No, no, no. Good 

3 try, though! Good try.

4 MR. STEARNS: No, I know, six minutes.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tom Stearns, take 

6 it away.

7 MR. STEARNS: Good morning. It is 

8 really strange to have most people over here, isn't 

9 it?

10 So, Tom Stearns from High Mowing 

11 Organic Seeds. Welcome to Vermont. Our farm is 

12 about 20 miles from here. You could all come 

13 visit, especially if the meeting gets really boring 

14 for the last few days and you want to slip out. You 

15 guys probably have to stay, though.

16 So, I have been growing organic seeds 

17 for 21 growing seasons now, vegetable seeds. It 

18 has been a long time and I have got a few thoughts 

19 that I wanted to share.

20 How many people, despite a show of hands 

21 have eaten organic food in their lives? Okay. 

22 How many of you know that it was grown using organic 
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1 seed? A couple more hands.

2 A little known fact is that most of the 

3 organic food in this country is not planted with 

4 organic seeds. This is an industry that is in its 

5 infancy. And so we need to really take care of it, 

6 nurture it, and invest in it so that we get the right 

7 kind of seeds for a completely new kind of 

8 agriculture that we are trying to create, the kind 

9 of agriculture that organic espouses is one where 

10 there is natural disease resistance, natural 

11 insect resistance, natural nutrient density. 

12 These are things that can be achieved through plant 

13 breeding for those traits. In some cases, those 

14 are also common things that are done in 

15 conventional breading but, in many cases, it is 

16 very, very different. So, let's make sure we have 

17 the right tool for the application that we are using 

18 it for.

19 One of the things that I wanted to 

20 mention is the public funding for plant breeding 

21 is essential. The land-grant universities have 

22 established infrastructure for doing plant 
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1 breeding. My company is pretty small. For us to 

2 invest in our own whole from scratch plant breeding 

3 program, when there are university programs out 

4 there with this infrastructure already in place but 

5 lacking the funding is sort of an absurd investment 

6 for us to make. So, we have been working with more 

7 than a dozen universities and their plant breeding 

8 programs and we have been licensing varieties from 

9 them, commercializing them, and paying royalties 

10 back to the university. I love doing that. Most 

11 people don't like paying royalties but for us, it 

12 is an investment in our own plant breeding program 

13 in the public sector. So, as often as you can, make 

14 sure that issues is brought to light.

15 Another issue I want to bring up is 

16 around the rules for organic seeds and what is being 

17 done as Europe as the sunset type of process for 

18 certain varieties and certain crops country by 

19 country. For example, in Europe, certain 

20 countries no longer allow the use of conventional 

21 seed in certain crops because there is sufficient 

22 supply in the organic market. If we were to do this 
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1 in the United States, it would be very different. 

2 Countries in Europe are much smaller and have 

3 distinct growing regions. The U.S. is a very large 

4 country, so it is more challenging. But I would 

5 propose looking at some possibilities like that and 

6 I will tell you more later. Thank you.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Wait a minute, Tom. 

8 Questions on seeds or related matters for Tom 

9 Stearns? Any questions from our group? I know if 

10 Zea Sonnabend was here, she would be asking 

11 questions but as you know, she is stuck somewhere. 

12 Hopefully, she will be here later and will be sure 

13 you get to talk to her. Thanks very much, Tom.

14 MR. STEARNS: Thank you.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

16 Grace Gershuny and she will be followed by Jo Ann 

17 Baumgartner. 

18 Grace, are you there? Grace is also a 

19 very well-known person for organic in the State of 

20 Vermont and nationally. Thank you, Grace.

21 MS. GERSHUNY: Okay, yes, thank you, 

22 Jean. Thank you NOSB members. It is so great to 
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1 have you here in my home state.

2 And I was hoping to bring copies of this 

3 book that I am just getting ready to publish for 

4 all of you today but, due to a technical glitch, 

5 it is not available yet. I am hoping to have them 

6 here by Thursday to give out to you.

7 I wanted to say that last winter our 

8 Senator, Bernie Sanders, whom you might have heard 

9 of, addressed the NOFA-Vermont Winter Conference 

10 and paid us the supreme compliment of calling us 

11 revolutionaries. So, I am very proud to claim that 

12 title. And it has taken me 15 years to write this 

13 book. And I started working on it when I left the 

14 National Organ Program staff, which I was on for 

15 five years, and I was a principle author of the 

16 first proposed rule, which, as many people realize, 

17 got a resounding number of negative public 

18 comments.

19 But still, you know the organic 

20 industry has been a huge success. And in the time 

21 since implementation, it has grown to be a huge 

22 industry and yet, still, less than one percent of 
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1 U.S. farmland is organic. And this is a problem, 

2 in my opinion.

3 When I accepted that staff position in 

4 1994, Washington, D.C. was the last place on earth 

5 I ever imagined myself going. One of my goals in 

6 taking that job was to help introduce more 

7 organic-friendly thinking within USDA and I think 

8 that has begun to happen. And I saw that 

9 sanctioning of organic by its former archenemy as 

10 a real turning point in the radical transformation 

11 of U.S. agriculture. And even though that might 

12 have been a bit of a naive vision, I think that it 

13 was ironically enough undermined, not so much by 

14 a recalcitrant establishment but by the activist 

15 community.

16 So, as many of you know, there was a 

17 great deal of public outreach at the first proposed 

18 rule and much of that disturbed me deeply on a 

19 personal level. Some of that story is in this 

20 book. What really made me angry, though, was I 

21 really saw that organic advocates, in their 

22 passionate desire to have it be perfect, became the 
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1 enemy of the good. And in the words of Pogo, we 

2 have met the enemy and it is us.

3 Today's young food activists and 

4 aspiring farmers often accept as a given that the 

5 organic label has lost its meaning. They believe 

6 that industrial organic is not as good as even 

7 conventional. So, I have been determined to tell 

8 that story. It has taken a lot of work. It has 

9 taken a lot of personal grief. And I hope you will 

10 read it. I have more extensive comments that I 

11 have submitted with some excerpts from the 

12 introduction and I thank you for your attention. 

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

14 much, Grace. Are there comments, questions for 

15 Ms. Gershuny?

16 We look forward to seeing the book, 

17 Grace, and thank you very much for your comments 

18 today. They are much appreciated.

19 The next speaker is Jo Ann Baumgartner 

20 from Wile Farm Alliance and she will be followed 

21 by Michael Sligh.

22 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Hi. Jo Ann 
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1 Baumgartner Wild Farm Alliance. We are based in 

2 Watsonville, California. 

3 We urge the NOSB to eliminate the 

4 incentive to convert high conservation value areas 

5 to organic crop land. This is occurring because 

6 it is easier to convert native ecosystems than to 

7 wait three years for transitioning conventional

8 land. 

9 The issue is not new to the NOSB. In 

10 2009, their biodiversity recommendation included 

11 direction for how producers and certifiers should 

12 address this issue with regard to the OSP. 

13 Biodiversity conservation is a 

14 foundational principle of organic agriculture. 

15 Accordingly, the NOP should have barriers that 

16 discourage the conversion of intact biodiverse 

17 ecosystems and to crop production.

18 We are currently experiencing the sixth 

19 wave of BC's extinctions in the past half billion 

20 years. Unless we alter our course, it is predicted 

21 that as many as 30 to 50 percent of all species may 

22 be extinct by mid-century.
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1 Conversion is occurring in native flood 

2 lands, grasslands, woodlands, throughout the 

3 world. Conversion can cause significant soil 

4 carbon emission and losses of carbon from woody 

5 biomass, especially if the land is first burned.

6 Prairie habitat in Illinois, Iowa, and 

7 Minnesota have declined by 99 percent, in the 

8 Dakotas by nearly 50 percent. In the Palos region 

9 of the northwest, they have lost 94 percent of their 

10 grassland. The solution is to take cues from 

11 others. Two organic European certifiers, IFOAM, 

12 and many nonorganic ecolabel certification 

13 programs have requirements to prevent the 

14 conversion of high-conservation value areas as 

15 shown here.

16 Many NOP-accredited certification 

17 bodies are already versed in this type of 

18 compliance because they also work for other 

19 ecolabels, which use the tools and verification 

20 processes for checking the constant conversation 

21 of high-conservation values has not occurred. And 

22 there is more.
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1 So, we encourage the NOSB to work with 

2 experts that understand the nexus between organic 

3 agriculture and conservation to develop a detailed 

4 recommendation for rulemaking that eliminates the 

5 incentive to convert high-conservation value areas 

6 to cropland. At the same time, the NOSB should 

7 request that NASS incorporate questions into their 

8 organic certifier and farmer surveys. We would 

9 like to know where new acreage is coming from. Is 

10 it being converted from conventional, coming out 

11 of CRP land, or from land that has no cropping 

12 history?

13 Let's convert the 99 percent of 

14 conventional agriculture to organic before we vow 

15 any more conversion of intact ecosystems. Thank 

16 you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

18 much, Jo Ann. Questions? Yes, Calvin.

19 MEMBER WALKER: Could you make your 

20 presentation available to us?

21 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Yes.

22 MEMBER WALKER: Thanks.
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1 MS. BAUMGARTNER: And I submitted a 

2 longer document to the EAC Committee this summer. 

3 So, I could get that to you also.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other questions 

5 for Jo Ann? Thank you for that really important 

6 presentation. It is much appreciated.

7 The next speaker is Michael Sligh and 

8 he will be followed by Aaron Avila.

9 MR. SLIGH: Good morning. I'm Michael 

10 Sligh. I am part of the original NOSB. I am here 

11 to celebrate our 25th anniversary. I think we are 

12 here against all odds and because we make a 

13 difference. We should take great pride in this 

14 collective achievement. However, organic has 

15 much more potential to offer. A world in peril 

16 that we have managed to codify or reward so far. 

17 You know we set out to create the same alternative 

18 to agribusiness as usual, a way for famers and 

19 workers to farm with dignity in concert with 

20 nature, a way for consumers to get the foods they 

21 crave and deserve from a trusted source. However, 

22 for us to meet our full potential, we must find 
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1 creative and transparent ways to pick up the pace 

2 and evolve our ethic, while not violating our 

3 process or our values in the pursuit.

4 We are aware of many macro challenges 

5 that are facing us. Our standards are lagging 

6 behind in some key areas. Other labels are 

7 beginning to catch up and even lap us in some key 

8 areas. We also need to do better to defend against 

9 those who want to ride our coattails unfairly.

10 We also must do more to close the 

11 domestic supply versus demand gap and continue to 

12 insist that polluters pay. We are also aware that 

13 new genetic plant breeding and synbio techniques 

14 are rolling out ahead of our capacity to evaluate 

15 and there is a troubling growth of utility patents 

16 being used in organic seed production. 

17 All this is happening because of rapid 

18 growth and success but also because I think we are 

19 still a little too bogged down. I strongly urge 

20 that we set aside time at the next spring meeting 

21 to really look at these macro issues and how can 

22 we stay ahead of the curve and be all that we can 
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1 be. 

2 This is a very unique piece of 

3 legislation that, on purpose, we established as a 

4 social contract between the organic community and 

5 the government. It is one based on transparency, 

6 accountability, and trust. But that is a two-way 

7 street and we must not allow false and personal 

8 attacks against any of us who have the courage, 

9 especially, to join the NOSB or maybe, insanely, 

10 to join USDA. We must speak out of that. That is 

11 not to be tolerated. It cheapens our discourse. 

12 It harms our integrity and we must do better. We 

13 owe it to the farmers. We owe it to the workers. 

14 And we owe it to the future. We can do better and 

15 we must. Thank you very much.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Michael, thank you 

17 very much for your comments. I think that I have 

18 a question. Colehour.

19 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Thank 

20 you, Michael, for your comments and thank you for 

21 coming back to the podium. I'm sorry to force you 

22 to do extra walking.
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1 My question actually is regarding 

2 something you said that I think is a great idea but 

3 it is about how. And so say it were at the next 

4 meeting, for example, how should the NOSB be 

5 scheduling time to be looking at macro issues and 

6 what means would that be achievable or 

7 facilitatable, or doable? I think we did a little 

8 bit of it here today but I would like your thoughts 

9 on it.

10 MR. SLIGH: Yes, I think we have been 

11 nibbling at that. I mean I think the reality is 

12 that we may need to set, occasionally, a little more 

13 time. I mean it is a burden to all of us. I was 

14 there. I know the burden. But at the same time, 

15 if the market is outpacing us and we can't keep up, 

16 we need to come up with creative strategies to get 

17 ahead. Because if we don't, we are going to 

18 continue to lose ground against those that may or 

19 may not be fair.

20 So, I think it is coming at us quick. 

21 This is about success. This is about just the 

22 rapid growth that we are on. And I think it would 
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1 serve us well to step back and really look at the 

2 big picture and see these dynamics. Miles has a 

3 huge list of challenges already. So does the Board 

4 but I think it would do us well to do that.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

6 Additional questions for Michael? Thank you very 

7 much. we much appreciate your comments. 

8 The Chair notes for the record that Zea 

9 Sonnabend has been able to arrive here from 

10 California. She rode here on a horse, I think, as 

11 far as I can tell. We are pleased to see her. It 

12 is 12:30 on the record, she is able to be at our 

13 meeting.

14 Michelle, could you update me on the 

15 status of Harold? He is on the phone connection, 

16 is that right, rather than visual at the present 

17 time?

18 MS. ARSENAULT: We have him Skyped-in.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, thank you. 

20 So, the record reflects he is able to be hearing 

21 the public comment, which will be formulating part 

22 of his information as he votes later on this week.
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1 The next speaker is Aaron Avila and he 

2 will be followed by Harry Rice. Aaron.

3 MR. AVILA: Thank you. Aaron Avila. 

4 I work for G.S. Long Company, a family-owned 

5 consulting supply company located in the Pacific 

6 Northwest. We work directly with certified 

7 organic and conventional growers of tree fruit, 

8 hops, wine, grapes, and berries, both large and 

9 small, and have for over 30 years. Our crop 

10 advisors consult on approximately 7,000 acres of 

11 certified production and over 2,000 acres 

12 currently in transition to organic.

13 I have worked in Washington agriculture 

14 for 25 years and also currently serve as Vice Chair 

15 of the WSDA Organic Advisory Board.

16 In the interest of time, I am only 

17 commenting on materials that I consider most 

18 important to our growers. My lack of comments and 

19 other materials scheduled for sunset should not 

20 imply my agreement or encouragement of such action. 

21 I ask that you please also reference my full written 

22 comments submitted for the April meeting.
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1 Chlorine is a necessary sanitation tool 

2 across all industry. By sanitizing cutting tools, 

3 this is used as a mechanism to prevent 

4 cross-contamination of bacteria and fruit 

5 production, such as fire blight. Additionally, it 

6 supports sustainable water management by providing 

7 algae control and micro emitter and drip irrigation 

8 systems. Elemental sulfur is widely used for 

9 disease suppression and often is a soil amendment. 

10 Helping with suppression of mildew, it is a staple 

11 product in organic tree fruit, grape, and hop 

12 production. But the prohibition of antibiotics 

13 for fire blight control and the continued allowance 

14 of lime sulfur is increasingly important. The 

15 removal of this product with civilian tree fruit 

16 insect and disease programs. 

17 Narrow range horticultural oils are 

18 widely used for insect and mildew suppression. 

19 They are a very important part of organic tree, 

20 fruit, grape, and hop production. As I am not 

21 aware of any effective replacement, the loss of 

22 this will result in a higher level of pest and 
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1 disease pressure throughout the course of the 

2 growing season.

3 Pheromones are a cornerstone of IPM 

4 practices and a staple in organic tree fruit 

5 production. It would be absurd to remove these 

6 important tools. The unavailability of pheromone 

7 disruption and pheromone monitoring would lead to 

8 a sharp increase in additional pesticide 

9 applications and likely cause many to leave the 

10 program altogether.

11 Coppers have always been important to 

12 prevent bacterial infections in tree fruit and with 

13 the removal of antibiotics for fire blight control, 

14 even worse than now.

15 Potassium bicarbonate is used as a 

16 mildew eradicant and other than sulfur, I am not 

17 aware of any other compound that can help 

18 post-infection, although sulfur can be used as an 

19 eradicant, it provides a much higher risk of 

20 biotoxicity to the crop.

21 Micronutrients play an important role 

22 in agricultural production as well. There is much 
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1 work done in this area. I support their continued 

2 use in organic production, as well as their 

3 proposed amended annotation. Sole deficiency 

4 must be documented, period.

5 List for inerts seems prudent to allow 

6 EPA safer choice to continue and finalize the 

7 review process before taking a position. Should 

8 this review result in the removal of those four 

9 inerts, two years is not nearly enough time for 

10 product manufacturers to change formulations 

11 because changes in formulations would likely also 

12 require new environmental impact and efficacy 

13 studies as well a time to educate producers. I 

14 believe a five-year period is more realistic.

15 And in closing, I would also like to say 

16 that I think the notion that ideals surrounding 

17 organic agriculture are somehow tied to scale of 

18 operations are false and that these products are 

19 important to the continued success of the certified 

20 organic industry both large and small. Thank you 

21 for the opportunity to be here today and to share 

22 these comments with you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

2 Aaron. Questions for Aaron on this presentation. 

3 Any questions for him? No, no questions. Thank 

4 you very much. We much appreciated your comments.

5 The next speaker is Harry Rice and he 

6 will be followed by Mark Kastel. Harry.

7 MR. RICE: My name is Harry Rice and I 

8 represent the Global Organization for EPA and DHA 

9 Omega-3s. I will address the relisting of fish oil 

10 on the National List. 

11 Allegations that the fish oil industry 

12 is wreaking havoc on the environment, as well as 

13 allegations that fish oil is harmful and of no 

14 benefit to human health are unfounded.

15 Comments concerning sustainability 

16 were included in GOED's written comments but I have 

17 the following to add. Contrary to what is reported 

18 in the fish oil technical report, fish are not fish 

19 solely for their fish oil. Fish oil is a 

20 value-added byproduct. The 2015 dietary 

21 guidelines advisory committee examines 

22 sustainability of fish production. From the 
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1 scientific report, I quote the following 

2 conclusion from Part D, Chapter 5. The DGAC 

3 concurs with the FAO report that consistent 

4 evidence demonstrates the capture fisheries 

5 increasingly managed in a sustainable way have 

6 remained stable over several decades. However, on 

7 average, capture fisheries are fully exploited and 

8 their continuing productivity relies on careful 

9 management to avoid over exploitation and 

10 long-term collapse.

11 The DGAC rated this evidence as strong. 

12 Contrary to popular belief, this is a positive 

13 conclusion.

14 For many, the word exploit has a 

15 negative connotation. In describing the state of 

16 fisheries, exploit is not considered negative 

17 until we talk about being over-exploited. FAO 

18 defines fully exploited to mean the following, and 

19 I quote, the fishery is operating at or close to 

20 an optimal yield level, with no expected room for 

21 further expansion.

22 According to the most recent report of 
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1 the sustainable fisheries partnership, the 

2 fisheries that supply 85 percent of omega-3 oils 

3 just received a rating of E or higher and that is 

4 on a scale from A to F. Of course, improvement can 

5 continue to be made in all fisheries and these 

6 rankings are an important part of the process.

7 With respect to contaminants, during 

8 the fish oil refining process, the level of 

9 contaminants present is reduced to levels much 

10 lower than in the fish. According to the 2015 

11 DGAC, the majority of wild caught species neither 

12 the risks of mercury nor organic pollutants 

13 outweigh the health benefits of seafood 

14 consumption. The 2014 draft updated seafood 

15 advice from the FDA and EPA, as well as the 

16 associated risk assessment report that the 

17 benefits of fish consumption outweigh any 

18 potential risks. Since the level of contaminants 

19 in fish is of little concern, the level of 

20 contaminants in fish oil should be of even less 

21 concern.

22 With respect to plant-derived 
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1 alternatives, as expressed in GOED's written 

2 comments, plan-based sources of omega-3s serve as 

3 an inadequate alternative to marine-based 

4 omega-3s.

5 With respect to human health, some of 

6 the public comments I have reviewed refer to a New 

7 York Times article published last spring, which 

8 question the well-substantiated cardiovascular 

9 benefits of fish oil. Unfortunately, the writer 

10 of the article relied upon a poorly-substantiated 

11 letter, not a peer reviewed article, published in 

12 JAMA as the basis of the article.

13 In conclusion, GOED encourages the NOSB 

14 to retain fish oil on the list of nonorganically 

15 produced agricultural products allowed as 

16 ingredients in products labeled as organic. 

17 Please do not ever hesitate to contact GOED with 

18 any questions related to fish oil or any other EPA 

19 DHA product. We are always happy to share our 

20 expertise. Thank you for your time.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Harry. 

22 Questions? Tom.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: How do your monograph 

2 limits of PVC dioxin heavy metals compared to 

3 national, foreign, or international standards on 

4 tolerable consumptions of those substances?

5 MR. RICE: So, I don't think you are 

6 asking for exact figures. 

7 Okay, so in general what happens is we 

8 look at all the strictest regulations around the 

9 world. We have compiled, I guess, a large database 

10 or spreadsheet and we set our limits at the 

11 strictest limits around the world.

12 So, for PVCs, the State of California 

13 has the strictest limit. So, that is how we do it.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Question from the 

15 Chair, if I may.

16 The technical report that we received 

17 on fish oil included that some of the fish oil was 

18 coming actually from mammals, from seals and 

19 whales. To what extent do you know whether that 

20 is true and what percentage that might be in the 

21 fish oil supply that you are involved with?

22 MR. RICE: Yes, so I can't give you an 
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1 exact percentage. We don't have any numbers that 

2 deal in that area. I can tell you that we have 

3 estimated that our membership encompasses 85 

4 percent plus of the world's manufacturing and 

5 refiners. So, it would be a very small percent.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And a follow-up. 

7 One of the commenters stated that 81 percent of all 

8 the world's fish oil is actually used in 

9 aquaculture. Does your company get involved with 

10 that at all or are you involved only in the refined 

11 fish oil that is used for human consumption?

12 MR. RICE: The majority of it is 

13 refined for human consumption. So, very few of our 

14 members are involved in aquaculture.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

16 Questions from the Board? Thank you very much.

17 MR. RICHE: Thank you.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

19 Mark Kastel and he will be followed by Julia Barton.

20 MR. KASTEL: Thank you, Madam Chair. My 

21 name is Mark Kastel. I am here today representing 

22 the Cornucopia Institute and our approximately 
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1 10,000 members. Certified organic farmers are our 

2 primary constituency.

3 Mark Twain once said loyalty to country 

4 always; loyalty to the government, when it deserves 

5 it.

6 Mark Kastel once said loyalty to 

7 organics always; loyalty to the NOP when it 

8 deserves it.

9 We have wondered why there is not more 

10 outrage on the part of people appointed to this 

11 Board. We just released Cornucopia's updated 

12 voting scorecard. We have been accused by one 

13 political appointee on this Board of bullying and 

14 intimidating. For heaven's sakes, people, all of 

15 our research is based on public records. Radical 

16 Cornucopia policy positions on all contested votes 

17 on the scorecard were 100 percent in concert with 

18 Food and Water Watch, Beyond Pesticides, Center for 

19 Food Safety, Consumers Union, OCA, and other NGOs 

20 -- 100 percent. Radical.

21 According the votes on the record, the 

22 majority of the Board at the last meeting voted with 
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1 the industry lobbyists between 9 and 33 percent. 

2 Look at the slides. Have you ever seen an organic 

3 farm before? When we paid for our unannounced 

4 aerial surveillance, not one egg-laying operation 

5 had any chickens outside. The one broiler 

6 operations with 40 barns, 20,000 to 30,000 birds 

7 in a barn, had not one chicken outdoors.

8 Access to pasture? Of the dairies we 

9 flew over, managing as many as 18,000 head of 

10 cattle, somewhere between zero and 10 percent of 

11 their animals were outside of the feed lots when 

12 we flew over. Organic.

13 Let's applaud the NOP and its 

14 leadership. It's legacy so far, according to 

15 recent USDA research, fewer farmers and fewer 

16 organic agri. Why? CAFOs are producing half of 

17 the organic milk today, likely. Seven organic 

18 dairy farms in Texas produced more milk than the 

19 hundreds of family farmers in Wisconsin, hundreds. 

20 Eighty to ninety percent of the organic eggs, 

21 according to the United Egg Producers Lobby, come 

22 from giant CAFOs.
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1 An estimated 80 to 90 percent of organic 

2 soybeans are imported from countries like China and 

3 India. About 50 percent of the corn that is 

4 flooding the market is from mostly former Soviet 

5 bloc states. We trust these folks.

6 We received a phone call last week from 

7 one of the farmer-owned organic grain 

8 cooperatives. They literally cannot sell 2015 

9 crop in corn and wheat. The market is flooded from 

10 Romania and elsewhere.

11 Is everyone on this board 100 percent 

12 confident that 100 percent of all those 

13 commodities, those shiploads coming to the U.S. is 

14 really organic?

15 Thank you very much.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Mark. 

17 Questions? Yes, Jennifer.

18 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you so much for 

19 all that you are doing and all of the support of 

20 the organic community as well.

21 So, as you view and report the 

22 information that you are reporting, what do you 
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1 think the National Organic Standards Board can do 

2 -- or the National Organic Program?

3 MR. KASTEL: Well, the first thing --

4 and thank you for the question. From a Board 

5 member who was appointed to recommend consumers, 

6 right, the first thing we can do is have the USDA 

7 respect the Organic Foods Production Act so when 

8 they set aside Board seats that are reserved for 

9 someone who quote owns or operates an organic farm, 

10 that they are truly working farmers with skin in 

11 the game.

12 And then, this is not a scientific 

13 panel, obviously. There is one seat designated 

14 for a scientist. It is a lay panel to interpret 

15 what is best for the organic community through your 

16 prism, through the OFPA prism.

17 So, the Congress gave the authority to 

18 this Board, not to the NOP, to choose technical 

19 advisors, scientists, that you feel comfortable 

20 with, that you feel are qualified to do this 

21 analysis. Because you folks aren't qualified. 

22 We have a couple Ph.Ds. at Cornucopia. I'm not 
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1 qualified to make many of these calls.

2 But you are not able to choose them 

3 yourself. The bureaucrats at the USDA are 

4 choosing them for you. It is just like 

5 Cornucopia's Board choosing the auditors. The job 

6 of the auditors for a nonprofit or a public 

7 corporation is to make sure the management is doing 

8 the right thing ethically.

9 So, you folks need to choose to make 

10 sure, one, that the scientists are qualified, and 

11 two, that they don't have conflicts of interest. 

12 In the past, some of these technical and TAP 

13 reviewers have worked for agribusinesses that have 

14 advocated or used some of these materials. That 

15 is a conflict of interest. That is in our organic 

16 Watergate report.

17 How come we can't do that scrutiny now 

18 to assure there is no conflict of interest? How 

19 come this Board can't? Because the program is 

20 keeping the identities of the technical reviewers, 

21 the scientists, secret. Has anyone ever heard of 

22 a scientific paper published in any journal or 
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1 anywhere else where the authors were anonymous?

2 So, those two factors could be game 

3 changers in terms of the work of this board in 

4 assuring to the public that the organic foods 

5 protection act is properly executed.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Mark.

7 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other questions? 

9 So, Board Chair prerogative, if I may. I know you 

10 mentioned that you're a 10,000 member, non-profit 

11 right?

12 MR. KASTEL: That is correct.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So, you technically 

14 have -- it is a nonprofit organization with 10,000 

15 actual members. This is member under the IRS.

16 MR. KASTEL: These are people who paid 

17 dues to -- well, I shouldn't say -- dues is a tricky 

18 word. These are people who have made some kind of 

19 financial commitment to become members. We have 

20 no minimum contribution. We have farmers that 

21 have given $30 a year; some less; and God bless 

22 them, some might give $1,000. 
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So, it is a 

2 membership organization as defined under the IRS 

3 code?

4 MR. KASTEL: We have bylaws to define 

5 our classes of members and we are governed by our 

6 Board of Directors.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

8 very much, Mark, for your presentation.

9 MR. KASTEL: Thank you, Madam Chair.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: It is appreciated.

11 The next speaker is Julia Barton and she 

12 will be followed by Lisa Bunin.

13 MS. BARTON: Good morning. The Ohio 

14 Ecological Food and Farm Association or OEFFA, is 

15 a grassroots coalition of more than 3800 members 

16 who work to build a healthy and sustainable food 

17 system. We employ education, advocacy, and grass 

18 roots organizing to promote local and organic food. 

19 Our certification programs certifies over 950 

20 organic producers and handlers.

21 The organic community has a track 

22 record of working together to overcome challenges. 
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1 While we submitted written comments on several 

2 topics, there are two key challenges we wanted to 

3 highlight with you today. Our hope is that there 

4 is space in this forum for the discussion of these 

5 issues. The first has to do with GMOs. Come time 

6 ago, while training new staff, it came to our 

7 attention that the NOP guide for organic crop 

8 producers states that GMOCs may be used during 

9 transition. At first, we thought this was a 

10 mistake but later came to the understanding that 

11 it stems from the specific interpretation of GMOs 

12 as a prohibited method, rather than a prohibited 

13 substance, particularly at a time when organic 

14 producers are bearing the weight and economic 

15 hardship of preventative measures against GE 

16 contamination, we must have clarity on our approach 

17 to this issue. The allowance of GE seed during 

18 transition sends mixed signals to transitioning 

19 producers, contradicts widely held understandings 

20 of the rule and has the potential to damage consumer 

21 confidence.

22 Allowing this practice complicates the 
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1 certification process, as it is difficult to verify 

2 that GE plants do not grow the following year, 

3 potentially contaminating organic crops. It does 

4 not serve the interests of transitioning or organic 

5 producers. We specifically request a clarifying 

6 statement that GE seed be prohibited during 

7 transition to organic. 

8 The second challenge has to do with 

9 hydraulic fracturing. Farms in the 14 states in 

10 which we certify are in proximity to fracking 

11 wells, injection wells, and pipelines with more 

12 plans for construction. We are concerned about 

13 the impacts of these wells and pipelines on organic 

14 producer's businesses, and on the integrity of the 

15 food being produced under the organic label.

16 Dr. Ted Auch from Cleveland State 

17 University recently examined these issues. Key 

18 findings of his include 11 percent of U.S. organic 

19 farms are within oil and gas regions of concern. 

20 This has the potential to increase to 15 to 30 

21 percent if more shale plays and basins are 

22 exploited. 
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1 Sixty to seventy-four percent of these 

2 farms produce crops and seeds like California, 

3 Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Texas. Issues 

4 such as soil quality, watershed resilience and 

5 water rights are likely to worsen over time with 

6 additional drilling. This raises important 

7 questions for the organic community, such as how 

8 can we address related concerns with air or water 

9 pollution, water reuse systems, irrigation and 

10 runoff.

11 We respectfully request the clarifying 

12 statement that fracking wastewater containing 

13 prohibited substances cannot be used as irrigation 

14 water in organic systems. And we thank you for 

15 your service.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

17 much, Julia. Comments from -- yes, Francis.

18 MEMBER THICKE: Thank for pointing 

19 that out about GMOs being allowed at transition. 

20 And I understand. I looked it up. It is not what 

21 is in here, the ATRA publication. And talking to 

22 Emily, that is a mistake, I understand. Maybe 
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1 someone could clarify that from the program.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I'm sorry. I'm not 

3 following, Francis.

4 MEMBER THICKE: Okay, I'm sorry. She 

5 referred to something in the crop production 

6 handbook which was prepared by ATRA and it says that 

7 GMOs are allowed during transition, which is a 

8 mistake, I believe. And maybe somebody could 

9 clear that up.

10 MS. BARTON: My understanding was that 

11 that was in the NOP publication. Is that not 

12 correct?

13 MEMBER THICKE: It was prepared by 

14 ATRA.

15 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, it is in a 

16 publication that is referenced on our website and 

17 it is a mistake that we have been meaning to revise. 

18 Yes.

19 MS. BARTON: Thank you. That is great 

20 news.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

22 Questions, Board members?
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1 Thank you very much.

2 MR. MCEVOY: I think we may want to talk 

3 about the fracking information that we have found 

4 out. Emily, do you want to clarify that?

5 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Hi. I have looked 

6 into the fracking issue a little bit and we are 

7 certainly looking for more information on this 

8 topic and we have consulted with EPA as to the use 

9 of fracking wastewater and irrigation. 

10 Basically, there is two different kinds of water 

11 that is classified by EPA and the Bureau of the 

12 Interior, fracking water from injected water into 

13 wells that has all those, well a lot of synthetic 

14 chemicals and is often contaminated; and then there 

15 is what is called produced water, which is a 

16 byproduct of oil and gas drilling.

17 And fracking water right now is not 

18 really -- well, some states prohibit it outright 

19 for irrigation and EPA has a proposed rule out to 

20 prohibit it outright for irrigation for all uses. 

21 So, that is under development and it is also not 

22 supposed to be going into public treatment water 
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1 programs, municipal treatment water.

2 The only exception is an onshore 

3 disposal of wastewater from oil and gas drilling 

4 is not supposed to be used on shore, except for in 

5 the arid west, there is an exception to use it west 

6 of the 98th meridian. So, that is where there has 

7 been some concern about the waste water from oil 

8 and gas drilling being used in specific water 

9 districts in California.

10 So, we are still looking into this. We 

11 have limited authority under OFPA to regulate 

12 water but certainly, it is an issue of concern and 

13 we will welcome more information as we consult with 

14 the different authorities about it.

15 MS. BARTON: Is this an issue that the 

16 NOSB has purview in or is this not something for 

17 their discussion? It is just it is not always 

18 clear to me where the line is there.

19 MR. MCEVOY: This is one of the topics 

20 that we have had some preliminary talks with the 

21 NOSB about putting it on their work agenda for 

22 further exploration and see if there is further 
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1 work that needs to happen on irrigation waters 

2 abroad topic.

3 MS. BARTON: Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

5 for your timely comments. I know there is a lot 

6 of activity going on with this nationwide.

7 What I am going to do is just have Lisa 

8 Bunin speak. And Albert, would you be comfortable 

9 waiting to be the first one after lunch? Because 

10 I hate to keep those demonstrators waiting.

11 So, Lisa. Lisa Bunin. Thank you.

12 MS. BUNIN: Good afternoon. My name 

13 is Lisa Bunin. I am the Senior Organic Policy 

14 Director at Center for Food Safety.

15 When Congress passed OFPA, 

16 participants in early conversations about how to 

17 put organic values, principles, and practices into 

18 law, understood it wouldn't be perfect. It 

19 couldn't be because the organic sector was still 

20 evolving. But OFPAs premise was that it would 

21 continuously improve as organic grew.

22 Still, skepticism and discontentment 
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1 prevailed regarding federal regulation of organic. 

2 UACA had little understanding of organic 

3 agriculture and little desire to support a system 

4 that issued agrochemicals. The Secretary of 

5 Agriculture actually testified in Congress against 

6 housing organic in USDA. So, when USDA took over 

7 organic, it pigeonholed it as a market niche within 

8 AMS. 

9 Organic pioneers viewed organic 

10 differently. They viewed it as a transformational 

11 agricultural system and demanded checks and 

12 balances I OFPA to protect its integrity. This 

13 ensured that the control of organic development was 

14 not taken out of their hands or evolved into a weak 

15 specialty market, instead of a regenerative foods 

16 system that they envisioned. Pioneers insisted 

17 that OFPA create a stakeholder board, the NOSB, 

18 with the authority to uphold organic principles. 

19 Given continuous improvement and 

20 expectations, OFPA added EPA's list of synthetic 

21 inerts of non-toxicological concerns of the first 

22 National List. Twenty-five years later, with 
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1 EPA's inert list dissolved, the Board's Review 

2 Committee substantially improved, the NOSB must 

3 revisit inerts. It already screams active 

4 ingredients in pesticides used in organic but 

5 inerts comprise 90 percent or more of pesticides 

6 and they may be more hazardous components. EPA's 

7 pesticide registration does not ensure OFPA's 

8 compliance because it is based upon different and 

9 often incompatible standards.

10 CFS supports the NOSB's plan to review 

11 inerts in clusters of related chemicals. We 

12 oppose substituting alone EPA's safer ingredient 

13 list without NOSB review. 

14 NOP should not ask NOSB to reconsider 

15 bio-based, biodegradable mulch. Unfortunately, 

16 so many farmers depends on plastic mulch to 

17 suppress weeds, creating mounds of plastic waste 

18 but it would be worse to weaken standards to allow 

19 petrochemical-based feedstock in mulch that is 

20 supposed to decompose in organic fields and this 

21 would violate OFPA.

22 Increasing farm fertility, farm soil 
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1 fertility, and biodiversity is a foundational 

2 practice of organic. Some soilless hydroponic 

3 systems reduce the ecological complexity of crop 

4 production to a feeding system of required 

5 nutrients. This doesn't fit the definition of 

6 organic production. While some may see it as we 

7 are certifying the system without legally 

8 established rules, others are not because they 

9 don't believe that hydroponics can be organic.

10 Certification inconsistencies violate 

11 OFPA, create consumer confusion and reflect poorly 

12 on organic. We urge NOP to issue a moratorium on 

13 new certifications and draft constructions to 

14 certifiers consistent with the legal definition of 

15 organic production with the NOSB's 2010 

16 recommendations leading to rulemaking.

17 Thank you and thank you to the outgoing 

18 members for their service.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, you finished on 

20 time. You get the award, Jean's magic wand.

21 All right, questions for Lisa. Yes, 

22 Colehour.
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1 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay, thank you, 

2 Lisa, for your comments. And my question, 

3 perhaps, isn't exactly something that you talked 

4 about but you referred to, which is, and I am the 

5 lead person on the plastic mulch and covers 

6 material that we are going to be voting on 

7 regarding, I guess, de-listing. But at this point 

8 in time, nobody was encouraging de-listing it and 

9 you made a comment in what you said regarding how 

10 biodegradable mulches, I think what I heard you say 

11 quite quickly was that we shouldn't be revisiting 

12 that topic and you made some comment about how it 

13 doesn't -- what is being pursued with that doesn't 

14 meet OFPA criteria.

15 And my question is, regarding the 

16 current material that is listed, plastic mulch and 

17 covers in 205.601(b), does that one meet the OFPA 

18 criteria and should be relisted? So, I would like 

19 you to address that question regarding what is 

20 currently on the books and, according to this 

21 system, will probably be relisted. Thank you.

22 MS. BUNIN: That is a very tough 
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1 question. Of course we understand that farmers 

2 are using it quite regularly and what I would say 

3 is that the research needs to go on to the research 

4 agenda and alternatives really should be found. I 

5 wouldn't say that that would be a substance that 

6 should stay on the list for the long-term but, in 

7 the short-term, I think all hell would break loose 

8 if it were to be removed from the list without 

9 viable substitutes at this point in time, 

10 unfortunately.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Other 

12 questions for Lisa?

13 Hearing none, I would like to invite all 

14 of you to go outside into the parking lot, right 

15 outside the entrance to the conference center, 

16 where there is a demonstration in support of the 

17 NOSB and its stance on hydroponics. And we will 

18 reconvene here at exactly 2:15.

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

20 went off the record at 12:58 p.m. and resumed at 

21 2:21 p.m.)

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ladies and 
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1 gentlemen, if we could get started. We do have an 

2 afternoon of public comments that we will be going 

3 through until 6:30 this afternoon, with one break. 

4 So, I would appreciate it if everybody could please 

5 take their seats now so we could get back on the 

6 record. Look at that middle-aged chicken crossing 

7 the road. Yes, we saw that.

8 It is 25 minutes past. So, we are five 

9 minutes later than I thought we might be. So, I 

10 know that I have Albert Straus up there all about 

11 raring to go. And I just have to step out and go 

12 and do a couple of things for five minutes or ten 

13 minutes or so. But Tracy is taking over as chair, 

14 so you will be up here, Albert. And so Tracy will 

15 be then, as Vice Chair, taking over for a few 

16 minutes and I will be back as soon as I can.

17 Go ahead.

18 MR. STRAUS: Thank for the opportunity 

19 to speak today. My name is Albert Straus. I am 

20 the founder of Straus Family Creamery. I grew up 

21 on my family dairy farm and I have personally 

22 managed it for almost 40 years and converted to 
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1 organic in 1993.

2 I am here today to share my perspectives 

3 a farmer who has a keen interest in upholding 

4 organic integrity. It is critical that we 

5 preserve consumer confidence in the organic label. 

6 Since the organic pasture rule has been adopted, 

7 the consistent implementation, oversight, and 

8 enforcement of the rule has been problematic. A 

9 key component of organic milk production is that 

10 cows must spend at least 120 days on pasture and 

11 must obtain at least 30 percent of their dry matter 

12 intake from pasture during the grazing season.

13 In order to achieve that standard, a 

14 minimum number of acres is require for each cow to 

15 have adequate pasture to graze on. The 

16 calculation will vary by geographical regions but, 

17 in our area of coastal marine counties, the rule 

18 of thumb is one acre per milking cow.

19 When organic dairy operation are 

20 certified with cows per acre ratios that far exceed 

21 that number, that rule of thumb, we question 

22 whether organic standards are truly being upheld. 
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1 Not only are these farms not meeting the

2 requirements to be organic, they are potentially 

3 eroding consumers' confidence in the organic 

4 label.

5 I am here to ask for stricter oversight 

6 by certifiers in evaluation of organic system plans 

7 and practices on organic dairies. In order to 

8 maintain consumers' trust, certifiers everywhere 

9 should ensure that they are checking the number of 

10 cows per acre reported against the reality of the 

11 pasture grown that is possible in that region. The 

12 onus should be on the certifier to critically

13 evaluate this data and not just accept it at face 

14 value. Additionally, I would ask that the NOP 

15 audit certifiers to make sure that their 

16 evaluations are accurate and in compliance with the 

17 organic pasture rule.

18 Another subject I would like to talk to 

19 you about is about conventional spent brewer's 

20 yeast. The NOP allows yeast from nonorganic 

21 sources be used as part of the feed rations for 

22 organic livestock. In the NOP guidance on yeast 
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1 data July 22, 2011, this yeast is approved for use 

2 as a supplement without a clear definition of any 

3 limitations on that amount.

4 The yeast has the potential -- I have 

5 just a couple sentences.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, go ahead and 

7 finish.

8 MR. STRAUS: The yeast has the 

9 potential to take the place of organic protein 

10 feeds. The certifier, MOCA, and CCOF have come out 

11 with a guidance interpretation that states if this 

12 operation is feeding on organic yeast greater than 

13 one percent of the ration, they must justify why 

14 it is a feed supplement and not a feed ingredient 

15 in the ration. I believe in this guidance and 

16 believe that the national regulations should 

17 reflect this policy, in order to maintain consumer 

18 confidence in the integrity of organic dairy 

19 products. Thank you.

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Albert. 

21 Any questions for Albert? Colehour.

22 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you for your 
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1 comments.

2 My question is is there anything 

3 concrete that you could suggest or saying in what 

4 you said that the NOSB could take as action?

5 MR. STRAUS: On which subject?

6 MEMBER BONDERA: I almost -- I mean 

7 from what I heard, it seemed like most of what you 

8 were saying was certifiers, or enforcement, or the 

9 NOP. But I am just wondering.

10 MR. STRAUS: So, as far as the pasture, 

11 I think it is a matter of getting the certifiers 

12 to understand how to evaluate pasture. And when 

13 you have four plus cows per acre, when everybody 

14 else has to have about one cow per acre, it causes 

15 questions by not only the community but also 

16 consumers.

17 As far as the brewer's yeast, the spent 

18 brewer's yeast, that is something that I think is 

19 a loophole that needs to be tightened up. Yeast 

20 was meant to be a digestive aid or helps something 

21 in the rumen for livestock. But it has the 

22 potential of being a protein feed and some people 
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1 are feeding 10 to 15 percent of their ration with 

2 this conventional feed.

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Francis.

4 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you, Albert. In 

5 your region, do you think there are many dairies 

6 that are less one acre per cow of grazing area?

7 MR. STRAUS: Less meaning?

8 MEMBER THICKE: Fewer acres per cow.

9 MR. STRAUS: There is a handful, yes. 

10 And there is a lot of questions being asked around. 

11 And I know there is a complaint procedure but I 

12 don't know if anybody is really willing to go out 

13 on a limb and talk about their neighbors.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any other 

15 questions? Well, I will ask one real quick.

16 Would you allow us how maybe how 

17 different grazing methods have something to do with 

18 the capacity of a pasture to carry more animals, 

19 like a rotational grazing?

20 MR. STRAUS: Rotational grazing can 

21 help a little bit but, even so, in our area, one 

22 to two maybe cows per acre would be realistic. But 
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1 when you get three, four, or five cows per acre, 

2 it is not realistic without irrigation or any other 

3 type of way to extend it.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you.

5 MR. STRAUS: Thank you.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Next up is Steve 

7 Wisbaum. On deck is Dave Miskell.

8 MR. WISBAUM: Good afternoon. My 

9 comments concern two related issues, the 

10 diminishing integrity of the organic label and 

11 hydroponic production. 

12 I have been purchasing and growing 

13 organic food for over 40 years and I am also a 

14 long-time supporter of NOFA-Vermont, The 

15 Cornucopia Institute and the Organic Consumers 

16 Association.

17 In the early '90s, I worked as an 

18 organic inspector for a variety of certifiers 

19 throughout the U.S. During this time, I helped 

20 write the first IOAIA inspection manuals, 

21 uncovered one of the first organic fraud cases to 

22 be prosecuted by a state's attorney general, and 
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1 initiated an IOIA survey of organic inspectors on 

2 issues related to organic integrity. I also wrote 

3 and distributed a paper called strengthening the 

4 organic certification system, which outlined the 

5 steps that could be taken by organic certifiers in 

6 the NOP to detect and prevent organic fraud.

7 Over time, I came to the conclusion that 

8 most people within the organic community either 

9 simply didn't know enough about the details of the 

10 certification and inspection process to understand 

11 how easy it is to game the system or were simply 

12 choosing to ignore the problem either to protect 

13 their own limited self-interest or because they 

14 feared the bad press that could come with full 

15 transparency on this issue.

16 And while the NOP has obviously made 

17 some improvements in their oversight of the organic 

18 certification system over these past 25 years, it 

19 is my sense that there still exists a significant 

20 amount of organic fraud, especially related to the 

21 sale of fraudulently labeled conventional products 

22 by certified organic producers and processors.
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1 I also believe that this fraud is 

2 continuing to place certain segments of the organic 

3 industry at a significant competitive disadvantage 

4 and is one of the main reasons that we are seeing 

5 a steady decline in the number of organic farms in 

6 the U.S., at least outside of Vermont.

7 A number of recent NOP actions have 

8 further undermined my confidence in the integrity 

9 of the organic label, including the NOP's continued 

10 support of the certification of CAFOs that violate 

11 the core organic principles of animals spending a 

12 large portion of their time in healthy green 

13 pastures. The NOP's change of the sunset rule that 

14 reduced the incentive to find safer alternatives 

15 to the materials on the national list, the shift 

16 in the composition of the NOSB which will likely 

17 result in serving corporate business interests at 

18 the expense of the interest of consumers and small 

19 family farmers.

20 And finally, the NOP allowance of the 

21 certification of hydroponic tomato operations, in 

22 spite of the long-held foundational tradition of 
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1 organic vegetable production they have done in a 

2 healthy soil ecosystem and in direct opposition to 

3 the NOSB's recommendation on this issue.

4 Thank you for your work on this 

5 committee and providing me with the opportunity to 

6 share my views.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Good timing. Thank 

8 you. Any questions for Steve? Thank you.

9 Okay, we have got David Miskell and Jane 

10 Shey is up next.

11 MR. MISKELL: I have an organic 

12 greenhouse greens business in Charlotte, Vermont. 

13 I have been farming organically since 1972. I was 

14 a member of the Vermont -- we formed the Vermont 

15 Organic Farmers Certification Program, and I am 

16 still certified by Vermont Organic Farmers.

17 When the move towards national 

18 standards came about, my first response was oh, we 

19 are letting the fox into the chicken house and the 

20 fox is hungry. And I was convinced by others 

21 amongst the Vermont organic farming community that 

22 we have done something really different here that 
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1 we have set up a structure called the NOSB and that 

2 structure is going to be a community awareness 

3 process and a research process to maintain the 

4 integrity of the organic standards.

5 The 2010 recommendations of NOSB I 

6 submitted testimony from the very beginning of the 

7 NOSB addressing of this hydroponic issue. It took 

8 the public input in, came out with a document that 

9 reaffirmed that organic farming is totally the 

10 heart of is creating living soil that is related 

11 to growing the plants, growing the animals, and 

12 growing people, and really healing the world. And 

13 that has been my mission from day one in organic 

14 farming.

15 The total reluctance of USDA and OP to 

16 address the issues that were brought up by the NOSB 

17 and allowance of the certifiers, certain 

18 certifiers, Vermont Organic Farmers do not certify 

19 hydroponic operations, to go out and certify is 

20 wrong. It is a total disrespect of all the work 

21 that you as volunteers do at NOSB. It was just what 

22 I feared was going to happen. Money talks. The 
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1 public stays below the money talks.

2 What I am working on now, and Dave 

3 Chapman and I have brought this issue up, it is 

4 great to see how much enthusiasm -- just one more 

5 sentence.

6 We are going to be working to propose 

7 a moratorium on any certification of hydroponic 

8 operations in the United States or in Mexico, or 

9 in Canada, or wherever they are being exported and 

10 being dropped into the market. And that is until 

11 the task force meets, comes out with a policy, and 

12 it is reviewed by the NOSB and then it is made into 

13 a rule so that the public can then make comments 

14 on that.

15 Until then, there should be no 

16 certification of hydroponics in the United States.

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, thank you 

18 David. Any questions for David? Thank you.

19 Next up is Jane Shey and then we have 

20 got Jake Lewin.

21 MS. SHEY: Good afternoon. My name is 

22 Jane Shey. I am a policy associate for the Organic 
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1 Farming Research Foundation, a national nonprofit. 

2 The Organic Farming Research Foundation works to 

3 foster the improvement and widespread adoption of 

4 organic farming systems.

5 OFRF cultivates organic research, 

6 education, and federal policies that bring more 

7 farmers and acreage into production.

8 In April 2015, NOSB submitted a list of 

9 research priorities that would support the organic 

10 community. Priorities in this list include plant 

11 disease management, soil-building practices, seed 

12 purity from GMO research needs, and several 

13 livestock topics.

14 OFRF recently completed the National 

15 Survey of Organic Farmers, with more than one 

16 thousand farmers from across the U.S. 

17 participating, allowing these farmers and ranchers 

18 the opportunity to provide input on challenges 

19 affecting the organic community.

20 The survey asked farmers to rate 

21 different topics as research priorities. We found 

22 that many of the NOSB research priorities mirror 
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1 the results of our survey of organic farmers. 

2 Preliminary results show soil health is a top 

3 priority with about 75 percent of the respondents. 

4 Weed management was second, selected by about 67 

5 percent of the respondents.

6 Other topics commonly rated as high 

7 importance for research include fertility 

8 management, determining the nutritional quality 

9 and health benefits of organic food, insect 

10 management, soil conservation, disease 

11 management, pollinator health protection, 

12 information on economics and marketing, and coping 

13 with water management during draught and flooding.

14 Survey result will be used to update 

15 OFRF's national organic research agenda, an 

16 important roadmap for the USDA and other research 

17 institutions identifying the issues most critical 

18 to the success of organic farmers.

19 We want to thank NOSB for their work in 

20 recent years to develop research recommendations. 

21 We do encourage NOSB to work to identify research 

22 needs more in advance of when NOSB recommendations 
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1 are made, so that research can better inform policy 

2 decisions or help growers adapt more quickly to 

3 changing regulations. OFRF is committed to 

4 working with NOSB and USDA as a partner to represent 

5 the needs of the organic research community and 

6 organic farmers.

7 The issues we raised in our comments 

8 reflect our communication and work with the broader 

9 organic community. Thank you for your time and 

10 increased attention to research needs to help the 

11 organic industry continue to grow, while 

12 maintaining the standards necessary to ensure the 

13 integrity of the organic certification system.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Jane. 

15 Any questions for Jane? Thank you. Good 

16 comments.

17 Next up is Jake Lewin and then after 

18 that, on deck is Junior Yoder.

19 MR. LEWIN: Hi, everybody. I'm Jake 

20 Lewin. I'm the President of CCOF Certification 

21 Services. We are the nonprofit certification arm 

22 of CCOF, which is, in itself a nonprofit.
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1 I just want to give you some perspective 

2 for us, as a certifier, on this process that we all 

3 participate in here. We spent a lot of time 

4 managing the lists that our clients use for their 

5 material list in their OSP and we have a pretty good 

6 idea what folks use and can turn the sunset dockets 

7 into communication. And, in fact, our principle 

8 job is getting written work out of farmers and it 

9 is hard. And we tried really hard to get you 

10 written work out of framers to inform your 

11 deliberations and it is, honestly, quite tough. 

12 This is process is not something that is real to 

13 them when it is not a hot button issue, as we are 

14 seeing, for instance, with the hydroponics. It is 

15 strongly felt. But day in, day out materials, 

16 people just do not conceive that this is really 

17 happening.

18 And so really for us, we are torn 

19 between becoming increasingly shrill about the 

20 things on the list or giving you numbers about what 

21 people use. And really what I am asking you for 

22 is to take the numbers seriously because those are 
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1 people with real lives and real businesses who just 

2 simply, it might not be sinking in what is at stake.

3 So, moving on, we are doing GMO testing. 

4 We have been doing GMO testing over this last year 

5 and we really applaud the prevention strategies 

6 document and the evidence of our testing is 

7 increasingly showing that what really matters is 

8 pushing greater and greater responsibility down 

9 the supply chain, meaning that seed purity is going 

10 to be increasingly important and something we would 

11 really like to see be an integral part of the 

12 program long-term. Operations need to start with 

13 seeds that are free of GMO contamination, if we are 

14 to have any hope of having a lack of GMO 

15 contamination further down the line. We see this, 

16 at this point, as really the only viable pathway 

17 or at least the most important step on any other 

18 viable pathway.

19 I would like to ask the NOSB to take on 

20 another work item to advise the Secretary on a 

21 labeling issue with the FSIS. FSIS has authority 

22 over meat labels and they will not allow organic 
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1 products to have a clear and simple non-GMO claim. 

2 They really have to use a long GMO sentence that 

3 is arbitrary, reductionist, and they can't even use 

4 the term GMO, in fact. And I think it is a prime 

5 opportunity for this Board to look at that and to 

6 perhaps provide the Secretary some guidance on your 

7 thinking on that. It has been a challenging 

8 problem for us and our members, who are making 

9 organic products. And this is ranging from a small 

10 minority-owned business, making three meat 

11 empanadas and 50 or 60 ranchers.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thanks, Jake. 

13 Questions for Jake? Nick.

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: Jake, what are you 

15 finding the most prevalent crops that you are 

16 testing for for GMO and which of those crops are 

17 you find the most GMO contamination?

18 MR. LEWIN: In general, our focus has 

19 been on livestock feed in the last year because that 

20 was where we had the primary access. And so the 

21 levels are higher in corn and soy but we have seen 

22 some in alfalfa. Principally, the vast majority 
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1 of what we see has been quite low, below what could 

2 be seen as foreign government's thresholds but a 

3 couple have been a little higher than that.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Jake.

5 MR. LEWIN: Thank you.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Next up is Junior 

7 Yoder, followed by Urvashi Rangan.

8 MR. YODER: Thank you for having me 

9 here today. I am here representing a small 

10 farmer's-owned co-op. Greenfield Farms has 180 

11 members with 52 family-sized vegetable farmers; 

12 four egg producers and 30-some dairy producers.

13 Personally, we farm 12 acres organic 

14 vegetables that are marketed through the co-op and 

15 processed organic raw sauerkraut. I am also an 

16 organic inspector, thanks to the NOP for helping 

17 me with the training here.

18 I'm here to comment on micro nutrients. 

19 Looking at micro nutrients as a whole, I think there 

20 is two major functions that we need to look at. 

21 The immune functions that, in the plant, and the 

22 reproductive functions, looking at the micro 
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1 nutrients individually, we know that boron 

2 increases the sugar breaks in the plant and the 

3 fruit. Copper can prevent lodging and small 

4 grains. Zinc can increase water utilization. 

5 Manganese is very important for the reproductive 

6 system. 

7 And looking at other examples, we have 

8 done a lot of research on phosphorous. If you have 

9 adequate levels of phosphorous and you have minimal 

10 uptake in the plant and you apply zinc, you will 

11 help that, increase that phosphorous uptake.

12 So, while I think it is very important 

13 to use sea minerals, compost, humates, intensive 

14 cover crops, I also think that it is not economical 

15 just to depend on those to increase soil levels to 

16 what we need to get our deficient soils up to what 

17 we need to grow healthy crops.

18 We know that clovers can increase the 

19 boron levels but it is very -- takes a lot of time 

20 to do that. We are currently working with the OSU 

21 to do research on micronutrients and the 

22 interactions it has on weed management.
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1 I would support the idea of having the 

2 rule rewrote to state that a producer needs to 

3 demonstrate a verifiable need in order to -- before 

4 applying and in order to avoid application and 

5 potential toxicity.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Any 

7 questions for Junior? Thank you for coming.

8 Next up is Urvashi Rangan, followed by 

9 Terry Shistar.

10 MS. RANGAN: Hey, good afternoon 

11 everybody. My name is Urvashi Rangan. I am the 

12 Executive Director of the Food Safety and 

13 Sustainability Center at Consumer Reports. 

14 You know last meeting in La Jolla, we 

15 were asked a question about whether we were against 

16 organic and I was really surprised after, I don't 

17 know, this is my 32nd NOSB meeting being asked that 

18 question. And so I wanted to clarify something. 

19 I appreciate a lot of your clarifications today 

20 about the work we do at Consumer Reports and how 

21 we perceive organic.

22 Our job is not to advocate for any one 
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1 thing for the sake of it. Our job is to be honest 

2 brokers in the marketplace and help consumers 

3 understand how labels add value to the conventional 

4 baseline and how they compare to one another.

5 So, we brought a couple of reports in 

6 with us. Beef was the last cover story of the last 

7 month, comparing organic beef to conventional 

8 beef, as well as grass-fed beef, looking at grass 

9 fed and organic, my colleague, Tyler, is going to 

10 talk a little bit more about that later, 

11 documenting the real scientific benefits of 

12 organic production and even more organic and grass 

13 fed production.

14 We also have a label table that compares 

15 organic to a bunch of other labels across 20, 25 

16 different sustainability attributes. And 

17 Charlotte Vallaeys, as you know, does a lot of that 

18 work for us. And this is the kind of in-depth work 

19 that we are trying to provide consumers so that they 

20 can make more informed decisions.

21 We have brought copies for all of you 

22 in the room of every report we have done. It is 
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1 worthwhile taking a look at it to see the kind of 

2 work we are doing to really underscore and underpin 

3 why sustainable production practices matter. And 

4 that is what matters to us is making this 

5 marketplace more sustainable and doing that in a 

6 true way. And that is why we come here every 

7 meeting with our criticisms, with our asks for 

8 keeping things to be a very high bar.

9 Along those lines, we want to talk about 

10 the antibiotics issue with poultry and the loophole 

11 that still exists at the hatchery and on day one 

12 of life. We did receive a letter from Secretary 

13 Vilsack and we were happy to hear that he was going 

14 to be asking you all to be making a recommendation 

15 on that. So, we would appreciate knowing where 

16 that is on your priority list and how that issue 

17 will be addressed and we look forward to your 

18 deliberation on that. Given Tyson has done it, we 

19 think organic can do that, too, and get baby chicks 

20 that haven't been treated with antibiotics.

21 We have also filed a complaint on a 

22 certain toddler formula and it is related to your 
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1 work on methionine, on lutein, on cernitin that has 

2 never gone anywhere with the NOP. And that is your 

3 hard work and your hard deliberation. 

4 And as a result, there are products on 

5 the market, including this infant formula that we 

6 have submitted a complaint about that contain these 

7 ingredients. We would like that to be addressed. 

8 We would like your hard work to be recognized and 

9 we think those things are very important.

10 Thank you.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Urvashi. 

12 Any questions for her? Thank you very much.

13 Next up is Terry Shistar and then we 

14 have got Dave Chapman on deck.

15 MS. SHISTAR: My name is Terry Shistar 

16 and I am on the Board of Directors of the Beyond 

17 Pesticides. We have a long history of involvement 

18 with organic production. Our roots are in the 

19 problems of agriculture from poisoning of farm 

20 workers to contaminated food, soil, air, and water. 

21 We have promoted the organic model as a solution 

22 to pollution.
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1 We also are concerned about inert 

2 ingredients. Most consumers sight avoiding 

3 chemical exposure as a reason for choosing organic. 

4 Anyone who knows anything about pesticides knows 

5 that inert ingredient is code for secret 

6 ingredient. Do you know who regulates pesticides? 

7 Well now that you know these things, how could you 

8 possibly think that organic consumers would find 

9 it acceptable to evaluate inert ingredients using 

10 only a list developed by EPA and never subjecting 

11 inert ingredients used in organic production to a 

12 public process?

13 Since you are all very busy people, you 

14 may not have had a chance to look at the proposed 

15 list of acceptable inert ingredients I organic 

16 production. The safer chemical ingredients lists 

17 comprises 725 chemicals, about 92 percent of them 

18 synthetic in 14 categories.

19 Most importantly, the SCIL is not just 

20 one list. Chemicals on the list are rated 

21 according to hazard; 64.5 percent of them have been 

22 verified to be of low concern, based on 
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1 experimental and model data; 8.6 are expected to 

2 be of low concern, based on data; 26.3 have known 

3 hazard issues and are not associated with a low 

4 hazard level for all environmental and health 

5 endpoints. And 0.5 percent will not be acceptable 

6 for use in products that are candidates for the 

7 safer choice label and currently labeled products 

8 that contain them must reformulate.

9 Thus, about 27 percent of the SCIL can 

10 be expected to to meet OFPA criteria. Before 

11 approving the proposal that is kind of before you, 

12 the NOSB must consider some important issues. 

13 Listing on the SCIL does not require 

14 public notice and comment is required for the 

15 national list. There is no process proposed for 

16 delisting from the SCIL. How much time would 

17 formulators have to reformulate? The SCIL 

18 process, with its lack of the orderly process 

19 provided by regulation, may disrupt markets for 

20 products used in organic production. The 

21 subcommittee should determine which list for 

22 chemicals are on the SCIL and make it public.
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1 New inert ingredients must be reviewed 

2 against OFPA criteria, as has always been 

3 recommended by the NOSB. The criteria for new 

4 listings should be consistent with those for old 

5 listings.

6 And finally, the NOSB should determine 

7 how --

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Go ahead and finish 

9 that sentence.

10 MS. SHISTAR: Okay. The NOSB should 

11 determine how a periodic review of a list of 725 

12 and growing can be less onerous than review of a 

13 list of 126.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. 

15 Questions for Terry? Yes, Colehour.

16 MEMBER BONDERA: I am trying, Terry, to 

17 follow something that you said a few times and I 

18 don't know if I quite get it. But expand on what 

19 you mean when you say that last sentence you said 

20 that you referred to before the list is growing.

21 MS. SHISTAR: Yes, okay. List 4, 

22 which is currently referred to in the National List 
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1 is a static list. But the SCIL, which is proposed 

2 to be the list of allowable inert ingredients in 

3 the proposed annotation is a growing list and more 

4 things that are constantly being added to it. It 

5 has 725 chemicals on it now but there will be more 

6 and more added, and not through a review that you 

7 do but through EPA's own process.

8 Does that answer your question, 

9 Colehour?

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Go ahead.

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, I guess as a 

12 follow-up, can you -- I guess I am trying to wrap 

13 my brain around this all but I guess part of my lack 

14 of understanding is so if it is on this list and 

15 we, the NOSB passed something that allows something 

16 that is on that list to be used or be included in 

17 something organic, then that is sort of an open --

18 we are opening a door to something that has no 

19 definition or it has their definition?

20 MS. SHISTAR: Yes, essentially because 

21 that list is not under the control of the NOSB, that 

22 list is an EPA list that has -- and I showed on that 
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1 slide, has 14 different categories. At least now 

2 it has 14 categories. And so in some of those 

3 categories are active categories like 

4 antimicrobials. So anything -- as that proposed 

5 annotation goes, anything that is on that list, the 

6 SCIL list, is available to be an inert ingredient 

7 in a product used in organic production. That is 

8 my understanding. And if that is not right, then 

9 I think you need to clarify the proposal.

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Nick.

11 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, this is really 

12 a question out of ignorance. The List 4, which is 

13 what the NOSB used, I guess, theoretically still 

14 continues to use, is not under the NOSB control. 

15 Am I correct in that?

16 MS. SHISTAR: Right, but it is a static 

17 list.

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right. I 

19 understand it is a static list. Was it always a 

20 static list? I mean it has been abandoned by EPA 

21 but --

22 MS. SHISTAR: It has been static since 
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1 2004.

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right. So, I guess 

3 my question is, what was the rationale, originally, 

4 for the NOSB and I am sort of looking at Emily here, 

5 if she knows, for why the NOSB, at one point in time, 

6 adopted List 4 at the EPA, rather than have control 

7 over the inert ingredients themselves.

8 Or is there someone in the audience that 

9 --

10 MS. SHISTAR: Michael Sligh could 

11 probably answer that.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: -- like Michael that 

13 could answer?

14 Okay, so what Michael said is it was a 

15 place to start. I will summarize what he said. It 

16 was a place to start but it was not necessarily seen 

17 as the end point for how -- in other words, we are 

18 trying to get a program up and started and you have 

19 got something there and you put it in place and you 

20 keep going.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: At the time, there 

22 was really not even an organized process to do TAP 
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1 reviews or TRs together for the active ingredient. 

2 And so trying to achieve that for anything that 

3 wasn't even disclosed publicly was just 

4 impossible. And so we have relied on the EPA.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any other questions 

6 for Terry? Thank you, Terry.

7 Next up is Dave Chapman, followed by Jim 

8 Gerritsen.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Hello. So, it is time 

10 for us to come to a conclusion on the issue of 

11 hydroponics and organic. Like the emperor's new 

12 clothes, the NOP position relies on our continuing 

13 silence, in order to avoid ridicule. The 2010 NOSB 

14 recommendation is completely clear in saying that 

15 hydroponic production has no place in organic 

16 certification. So, soilless growing is simply not 

17 in keeping with the basic principles of organic 

18 farming.

19 I believe the Task Force is an attempt 

20 to avoid, rather than to act on the recommendation. 

21 I believe that most of the people in this room agree 

22 with the NOSB recommendation. Most of the organic 
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1 farmers in America agree with that recommendation. 

2 IFOAM, the National Organic Coalition, Cornucopia, 

3 the Organic Trade Association, the Agrarian 

4 Elders, the OSGATA and the Vermont Organic Farmers 

5 have all issued statements in support of that 

6 recommendation. Five hundred organic farmers and 

7 over one thousand organic consumers have signed 

8 petitions that support that recommendation. The 

9 standards of 23 of the 27 member states of the EEU, 

10 as well as Japan, New Zealand, and New Mexico 

11 support that recommendation.

12 So, who opposes the 2010 

13 recommendation? The NOP and the hydroponic 

14 growers.

15 Was it ever intended that the NOP would 

16 redefine the principles of organic farming? I say 

17 no. They are only meant to be the referees 

18 ensuring that the organic standards are enforced 

19 and kept safe from corrupting economic interests. 

20 That is the entire reason that the NOP was created 

21 by Congress, to protect the farmers and the 

22 consumers form unethical marketing, from tricking 
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1 people into buying something they didn't mean to 

2 buy. And now the NOP is becoming exactly what they 

3 were created to protect us from. Let us stop 

4 settling for certified sort of organic.

5 I have three proposals for the NOP: 

6 create an immediate moratorium on certifying 

7 hydroponic production until the recommendation can 

8 be acted on; act quickly to create a rule that will 

9 ban hydroponic growing from organic certification; 

10 and connect the hydroponic growers to the USDA 

11 Process Verified Program so that they can create 

12 a label that will honestly offer what they grow to 

13 the American people. Let them be proud of how they 

14 grow and not hide it behind the organic label and 

15 then let the people make their choices.

16 I call on Miles, the NOSB, and Senator 

17 Leahy, and everyone here to push this issue to a 

18 speedy conclusion, keeping the organic standards 

19 strong and true.

20 Thank you.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Dave. 

22 Questions for Dave? Colehour.
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1 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you, Dave, for 

2 your testimony.

3 I guess I would like to ask you if you 

4 could comment about or speak about your own 

5 knowledge or experience with hydroponics, in terms 

6 of you do do hydroponics or do you understand it 

7 well enough to know that variation that you are 

8 referring to of why it shouldn't be organic. I 

9 wonder if you could expand on your own background 

10 or experience for us.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, I didn't mention any 

12 of my background because three minutes isn't long.

13 I have been an organic grower for I 

14 think 35 years. I have grown in greenhouses for 

15 28 years or so, always in the soil. I have many 

16 close friends and associates who are hydroponic 

17 growers. I have had two consultants who were 

18 hydroponic growers for many years, teaching me not 

19 about soil and fertility but about how to control 

20 the climate for growing tomatoes. So, I do have 

21 a fair amount of experience with the world of 

22 hydroponic vegetable growing.
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1 Did I answer the question, Colehour? 

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Other questions for 

3 Dave?

4 I just wanted to thank you for the 

5 rousing demonstration we had earlier today. It 

6 was a real treat and we appreciate it.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Monitors are 

8 here to welcome you in their own way.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, thank you.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Next up is Jim 

12 Gerritsen, followed by Harriet Behar.

13 MR. GERRITSEN: Hi, I am Jim Gerritsen. 

14 I am an organic farmer in Northern Maine. I have 

15 been farming organically for 40 years. I have been 

16 certified by MOFGA for 33 years. I served on the 

17 MOFGA Certification Committee as a volunteer for 

18 25 years. In addition, our family is long-time 

19 members of Cornucopia and I serve on the Advisory 

20 Board of Cornucopia.

21 I am co-founder of Organic Seed Growers 

22 and Trade Association and I serve as the President 
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1 of OSGTA is the organic community's farmer-run 

2 membership trade organization promoting, 

3 developing, and protecting the organic seed trade.

4 What I want to talk about today is 

5 another hat that I wear and I was one of those 

6 farmers invited to the Agrarian Elders' gathering 

7 held at Esalen Institute in Big Sur a couple of 

8 years ago in the winter. At that time, and I am 

9 circulating this around, the 24 farmers that were 

10 there, all of whom had a minimum experience of 30 

11 to 40 years growing organically, the total 

12 experience in that group was 800 years of organic 

13 farming. At that time, we put together a petition, 

14 we sent it to Miles, stating that organic must be 

15 soil-based, that hydroponics has no place. 

16 What is astounding to me is there is no 

17 lack of clarity on this, yet, we are degrading 

18 organic integrity by allowing certified organic 

19 label to be applied to hydroponics. It is not 

20 right.

21 I agree with Dave Chapman that there 

22 needs to be an immediate moratorium. We need to 
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1 maintain organic integrity and that means not 

2 allowing hydroponics. What is clear, and I'm 

3 going to read this statement for the audience that 

4 doesn't have access to it, here is the statement 

5 that we circulated in the last week and this was 

6 signed by virtually every one of the 24 farmers 

7 known as the Agrarian Elders: Soil is the 

8 foundation of organic agriculture. We believe 

9 organic crop production must always be soil-based. 

10 Therefore, crops grown from non-soil-based 

11 production systems, such as hydroponics, must 

12 never be considered or labeled organic.

13 So, I think this moratorium needs to 

14 happen and I think it needs to happen immediately.

15 I imagine I am going to run out of time 

16 but seed purity is something that my organization 

17 OSGATA works with on a daily basis. We are seed 

18 growers that make our livings from growing organic 

19 seed and we have a very serious threat and that is 

20 from GMO contamination. And we need USDA to 

21 protect the private property rights of organic seed 

22 growers and to prevent GE contamination from coming 
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1 onto our farms.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Jim. 

3 Questions for Jim? Calvin.

4 MEMBER WALKER: Earlier today, a speaker 

5 outside mentioned that The Alliance of Hydroponics 

6 would be possibly a death nail of organic. This 

7 kind of really struck me. I am kind of new to it, 

8 to a large degree. 

9 Could you interpret that?

10 MR. GERRITSEN: Yes. Among our 

11 membership in OSGATA and within MOFGA, say within 

12 MOFGA we have got 400 certified organic farms, 

13 hydroponic production includes tomatoes, lettuce, 

14 greens, and peppers. Virtually all of those 400 

15 farmers are growing those crops in the soil, 

16 adhering to traditional techniques of organic 

17 production. If they are out-competed by 

18 nonorganic fraudulent production in hydroponics 

19 that is being called organic that is done in giant 

20 factories like they are doing marijuana in 

21 Colorado, there is now way that family farmers can 

22 compete with that. It is going to be a lower 
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1 quality product. And to be called organic, when 

2 it isn't, it is not fair. And we need fairness of 

3 the foundation of integrity in organics.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Any 

5 other questions for Jim? Thank you, Jim.

6 Next up is Harriet Behar and on deck is 

7 Ed Maltby.

8 MS. BEHAR: I am Harriet Behar with 

9 MOSES. On the subject of inerts, I am concerned 

10 that this proposal that is before us ties the 

11 National Organic Program to an EPA program that may 

12 or may not be there for the long-term. We have 

13 always experienced this and may or may not retain 

14 its current methodology of review for the materials 

15 on their list, meaning the Safer Choice Program.

16 I agree that having the NOSB review 

17 every inert for placement on the National List and 

18 having these inerts go through the sunset process 

19 every five years is neither practical nor necessary 

20 to protect organic integrity.

21 On the other hand, while the Organic 

22 Food Production Act does refer to the EPA List 4 
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1 as a method of evaluating inerts, there was also 

2 a mandate that all synthetics be reviewed and 

3 approved for use by the NOSB.

4 And also, what is the process, if there 

5 are materials on this Safer Choice List that do not 

6 meet the Organic Food Production Act criteria of 

7 protection of environmental and human health?

8 I ask the NOSB to consider adding a 

9 recommended procedure that would include an 

10 opportunity for the public or the NOSB members to 

11 request a TR for synthetic materials that have 

12 issues brought forward that question their 

13 compatibility with the OFPA and then these go 

14 through NOSB review.

15 So, how to honor these various needs of 

16 organic producers who need materials, workload of 

17 the NOSB, and the Organic Food Production Act? 

18 Another possible solution, rather than accepting 

19 the Safer Choice List, could be for the NOP to 

20 manage the inert list as guidance or instructions 

21 to certifiers with all-natural agricultural and 

22 items used as ingredients on 605(a) and (b), put 
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1 in that guidance or instructions and also those 

2 taken from the Safer Choice List.

3 If something gets removed from 605, 

4 then it would automatically be removed from that 

5 NOP approved inert list. Synthetics that are 

6 currently on the Safer Choice List could be 

7 reviewed with comment from the public, making the 

8 case for what items might need a TR and the 

9 remainder would then go on to that NOP approved 

10 inert list.

11 By not having those inerts on the 

12 National List, it would not be subject to the sunset 

13 merry-go-round and this would not add a significant 

14 workload to the NOSB but it would allow for review 

15 of the problematic synthetics that we don't want 

16 to have in organic.

17 And lastly, I would say that there is 

18 precedent for a moratorium on hydroponics because 

19 this was done with organic aquaculture. And so I 

20 agree with what David Chapman said as far as the 

21 moratorium on hydroponics.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Harriet. 
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1 See, I'm back here again. We switched over. Any 

2 questions for Harriet? Zea. 

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, Harriet. 

4 I had a little trouble following it. So, are you 

5 suggesting that the SCIL team still do the reviews 

6 but then they get administratively managed as NOP 

7 guidance? Is that what you are suggesting?

8 MS. BEHAR: I'm saying that you, the 

9 NOSB, would look at that SCIL list and choose the 

10 agricultural, natural items on 605(a) and (b). 

11 Those would automatically move over to an 

12 NOP-managed guidance list. 

13 The remainder of the synthetics would 

14 then also be reviewed from you with public comment 

15 on which items might have issues. Those that have 

16 issues would then be requested to have a TR. The 

17 items that didn't have issues could then also move 

18 over to the NOP guidance list. 

19 But at any time, there should be a 

20 procedure that if there is new information that 

21 something could be requested to be reviewed again. 

22 So, that list would then have, basically, your 
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1 approval through the NOP and then the NOP could not 

2 automatically put things on and off on their own. 

3 It would all go through you as the NOSB.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Would not the same 

5 purpose be served if the SCIL list had a section 

6 dedicated to the organic review of things, which 

7 would be just as public and people could still 

8 request TRs through the NOSB and we would still 

9 review it periodically?

10 MS. BEHAR: So, you would review their 

11 organically approved list? Okay, what about 

12 procedures for removing something that is on that 

13 list, if some new information comes in?

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, I mean the full 

15 plan is still to be worked out of that but it seems 

16 to me -- I mean it has been our intent not 

17 necessarily to allow every active ingredient on the 

18 SCIL list and not every single thing that is already 

19 on it but to annotate or designate with a specific 

20 designation which things were reviewed for 

21 organic, either with a symbol, asterisk of some 

22 kind, or a separate section, potentially.
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1 MS. BEHAR: So, I would feel 

2 comfortable with the NOSB going through that review 

3 because over time, right now, we have a certain 

4 criteria for the SCIL list that they say. But I 

5 don't know that that methodology will be the same 

6 in the future. So, again, I would always want the 

7 NOSB to be able to look that over.

8 So, I think that is what you are saying. 

9 And so that is better, yes.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, thank you. 

11 Other questions for Harriet? Thanks very much. 

12 The next person to present is Ed Maltby 

13 from the Northeast Organic Dairy Producers 

14 Association and he will be followed by Karl Hammer 

15 from Vermont Compost.

16 MR. MALTBY: Good afternoon. Ed 

17 Maltby from the Northeast Organic Dairy Producers 

18 Alliance, not association. 

19 I have been farming for 45 years and I 

20 have had a new knee for the last three months and 

21 had to walk 400 yards to get a cup of coffee this 

22 morning because there was no coffee. Enough of my 
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1 troubles.

2 And I would like to compliment Jean 

3 Richardson on her chairmanship and opening the 

4 whole process for not only the organic community 

5 but specifically related to farmers understanding 

6 the process. Thank you, Jean.

7 Hydroponics, NODPA supports the 

8 position that has been put out today and we request 

9 that the NOSB reiterate its support for the 2010 

10 position so it no longer is a 2010 position but a 

11 2015 position. That should be quite a simple thing 

12 for the Board to do.

13 On the PPM changes, I may have been 

14 reading the wrong part of the docket but I couldn't 

15 see where the actual changes were. There is no 

16 relationship to the old PPM and the new one. And 

17 I think when we do change process, we must do it 

18 humanely and in consideration of people but we must 

19 also remember the same with certification. Just 

20 because a guy is a good guy, he can't be certified. 

21 It has to abide by a process.

22 I remember years ago when Kevin 
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1 Englebert couldn't get to meetings was willing to 

2 be on the phone and everything else. He was not 

3 allowed. So, in setting precedents, we have to 

4 look to the future and most FACA meetings are 

5 attended by one person or two people, not by this 

6 number of people. So, we want to use technology 

7 but not be abused by it. 

8 God, time disappears.

9 Ivermectin we recommend that be 

10 sunsetted. Fenbendazole and moxidectin have a 

11 five-day withdrawal period. We support the use 

12 with veterinary and extra label for the goat and 

13 sheep milk because fenbendazole and moxidectin are 

14 not allowed for sheep and goats. Lidocaine and 

15 procaine, if we look to animal welfare, we need to 

16 encourage the use of those. As there is no 

17 withdrawal time, we recommend 48 hours as a more 

18 realistic withdrawal time, rather than having an 

19 absurdly long time that producers usually lie about 

20 anyway.

21 That's it.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. Thanks 
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1 very much, Ed. Questions? Yes, Francis.

2 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you, Ed. In 

3 your opinion, do you think that both ivermectin and 

4 moxidectin are needed on the list if fenbendazole 

5 is also on the list?

6 MR. MALTBY: In looking at the use of 

7 it, it is for emergency use only. I think that 

8 should be stressed both to farmers and certifiers. 

9 And in looking at the tools that farmers need, we 

10 had a divergence of opinion amongst our members. 

11 Some of them wanted to get rid of all of them because 

12 they didn't need them and so slowly reducing the 

13 number. That is why taking ivermectin out, which 

14 I think was the intent when moxidectin was put on, 

15 we are honoring the history and the workers part 

16 in NOSB.

17 Our greatest concern is a lot of 

18 consumers see parasiticides the same as 

19 antibiotics and we want to be aware of that and also 

20 aware of the fact that organic livestock is all 

21 about systems. It is about prevention. It is 

22 about building natural immunity and we should 
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1 encourage that, rather than discourage that by the 

2 use of easy treatments on an annual basis.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Other 

4 questions for Ed? May I ask just a quick one?

5 On procaine, you just said that you 

6 would encourage the use of lidocaine and procaine. 

7 A lot of the public comment coming in seemed to 

8 suggest that procaine is, essentially, not used in 

9 the United States. Are you aware of it, Ed, being 

10 much used amongst your farmers? We know that 

11 lidocaine is but I haven't found much on the 

12 procaine. What did you find?

13 MR. MALTBY: In the farmers I 

14 consulted, then, no but I don't have that access. 

15 And our rationale was to encourage the use of that 

16 where you haven't got animal welfare standards 

17 right now. We are way behind the conventional 

18 livestock producers on animal welfare and we are 

19 using ground there. So, we don't want to take away 

20 these tools. We want them to be used on a regular 

21 basis to minimize animal suffering and encourage 

22 animal welfare.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

2 very much, Ed.

3 The next speaker is Karl Hammer. And 

4 following Karl will be Melody Meyer.

5 MR. HAMMER: Hello. I operate a 

6 business in Montpelier, Vermont called the Vermont 

7 Compost company. We have about 500 mostly 

8 certified organic farmers who purchase compost and 

9 compost-based potting soils from us.

10 I have been an organic farmer for over 

11 40 years. I was certified by Vermont Organic 

12 Farmers first in 1984 and we are currently 

13 certified by Vermont Organic Farmers as a compost 

14 facility, which includes third-party inspection.

15 My understanding about organic farming 

16 was that soil was an important part of it always. 

17 The injunction to feed the soil and the soil would 

18 feed the plants directed us to look at the 500 

19 million years of plant surface of the planet 

20 interaction that we call soil.

21 It needs to be understood that 

22 hydroponics is a radical departure from that 
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1 system. It isn't to say it is bad but it is very, 

2 very new and it contravenes half a billion years 

3 of technology. And it really should not be 

4 certified as organic. 

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Karl. 

6 Questions? Yes, Zea.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. Since 

8 you are a compost maker, perhaps you are in a unique 

9 position to explain this.

10 The NOSB recommendation in 2010 did not 

11 really define hydroponics but said that plants must 

12 be grown in a compost-based system. In the field 

13 when you see greenhouse growers growing in pots or 

14 in grow bag systems, for instance, where the media 

15 consists of vermiculite, peat, and maybe compost, 

16 how much compost needs to be in there or how much 

17 soil for you to call it a compost-based system?

18 MR. HAMMER: That is a very good 

19 question, one that I am not going to be able to 

20 provide an adequate answer to.

21 We frequently make media that are 80 

22 percent compost by weight. We see media that are 
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1 5 percent compost by weight. Obviously, those 

2 media behave very differently.

3 And when we say compost, that is another 

4 one of those words like love or communism that needs 

5 definition. It is very specific to it.

6 Our understanding of our work, when we 

7 say we make potting soils, I would rather say we 

8 participate in a mystery. And many of these 

9 questions about containers, this could be a very 

10 long conversation, obviously, but our intent is to 

11 -- let me say that we accept that the mass of our 

12 knowledge is dwarfed by the mass of our ignorance 

13 and that is where awe and respect for the ancient 

14 systems that brought us here.

15 So, we are trying very hard to mimic and 

16 allow the part we don't know into these mixes 

17 because there is much more that we don't know about 

18 how plants grow and about food or what might 

19 constitute food. Emerging science makes that very 

20 clear that there is more that we don't know than 

21 what we do.

22 So, you know, a greenhouse indoors all 
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1 gets very interesting to try to maintain 

2 appropriate and adequate constituents that truly 

3 are in sympathy with those ancient growing systems. 

4 I don't know if that was an answer.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Karl. 

6 And of course you know as once that Hydroponics Task 

7 Force gets going, you are going to be called on as 

8 an expert to tell us what soil is. So, you are 

9 going to have to be prepared to come up with the 

10 perfect definition.

11 MR. HAMMER: I will go home and work on 

12 that. Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Go home and work on 

14 that. All right. Thank you very much, Karl.

15 The next speaker is Melody Meyer and she 

16 will be followed by Liana Hoodes.

17 MS. MEYER: Hello, members of the 

18 Board, NOP. Thank you for allowing me to comment. 

19 Melody Meyer with UNFI. I have 

20 actually been in the organic space for longer than 

21 there was a regulation. So, I appreciate your hard 

22 work. I have got a bunch of things to talk about. 
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1 I am going to go a little bit fast. I submitted 

2 comments that are a little bit longer for you to 

3 review.

4 Biodegradable mulch is the first

5 subject. As you know, in 2014, NOSB gave the 

6 recommendation allowing it and adding it to the 

7 National List. That was after extensive farmer 

8 comments in October 2012, one of which was a 

9 supplier of Albert's Organics for 25 years, who 

10 voluntarily gave up their certification in order 

11 to use biodegradable mulch, which is allowed in the 

12 EU standards. 

13 However, the memo from the NOP required 

14 that it be 100 percent bio-based, which is not 

15 currently possible. And I strongly recommend or

16 support this material as an alternative to the 

17 plastic mulch that is happening now because it can 

18 naturally biodegrade in the fields. I think that 

19 is more in line with our OFPA than the plastic.

20 This request is on the future work plan 

21 for the Crop Subcommittee but it is not part of the 

22 current recommendations for this meeting, which is 
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1 interesting, because we are talking about 

2 plastics. So, I would urge you to move that 

3 forward. I think that that is a tool that organic 

4 farmers need as soon as possible.

5 Ethylene gas for use in organic 

6 pineapple production is my next subject. At UNFI, 

7 we sell a lot of fresh pineapples. I actually did 

8 a lot of work importing them in my past life.

9 We are against the motion to eliminate 

10 ethylene gas in pineapple production. It is 

11 really essential for inducing flowering, which 

12 affects many aspects of crop planning, from the 

13 cultivation, availability, quality and size of the 

14 fruit. De-listing this material would make it 

15 financially unfeasible for organic pineapple 

16 producers in the tropics to really survive in the 

17 market. It would, effectively, drive them out 

18 into conventional farming, potentially, and 

19 significantly reduce organic acreage in the 

20 tropics.

21 I will remind you also that it is 

22 allowed for pineapple flower induction by the EU, 
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1 Canada, and Codex. And without this material, if 

2 we de-list it, we won't have any more organic upside 

3 down cake anymore. So, that is something to 

4 consider as well.

5 And then lastly, eliminating the 

6 incentive to convert native ecosystems into 

7 organic, in order to gain more information on this 

8 issue, I would urge the NOSB to send a letter to 

9 NASS requesting the organic certifiers survey 

10 they are going to conduct next year includes this 

11 question. We need to find out what is really 

12 happening, especially in the tropics, if we are 

13 going out and cutting down pristine areas just to 

14 get over that three-year transition period.

15 And one last thing, the CDFA. I sit on 

16 the COPAC, California Organic Products Advisory 

17 Committee, a small version of what you are doing. 

18 CDFA is now hosting a GMO pilot, a pilot testing 

19 program for GMOs in the State of California. And 

20 CDFA just put out a blog post and I urge you to look 

21 that up and find out more about what is happening 

22 now. Thank you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

2 much. Questions for Melody. Thank you very much, 

3 Melody. I know that you have already submitted 

4 written comments, which all of us have read as well.

5 MS. MEYER: Thank you very much. 

6 Thanks for all your hard work.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Liana Hoodes. And 

8 Liana will be followed by David Guest.

9 MS. HOODES: Good afternoon, all. I 

10 am Liana Hoodes and I am speaking today as a citizen 

11 not a representative of any organization and I 

12 would like that corrected.

13 As always, I would like to commend you 

14 all, both the NOP and the NOSB on the incredible 

15 amount and substance of work that you do on an 

16 ongoing basis.

17 It so disheartens me to hear that the 

18 workload is nearly too massive and often just plain 

19 too difficult. Solutions must be found to address 

20 the NOSB workload but that cannot happen by giving 

21 up your responsibility laid out in the law. 

22 So-called inerts must be individually reviewed by 
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1 you, the NOSB. That is your legal responsibility.

2 I know that you are listening for 

3 concrete suggestions to advance your agenda today 

4 but I can't help but wonder, as our federal 

5 government watches what goes on here, that their 

6 answers become you can't review all those toxic 

7 inerts, it is just too hard; you can't review all 

8 those materials, it is just too much. That is why 

9 we must all demand that you and the NOP are given 

10 the tools you need to get the job done.

11 The uniqueness of OFPA in the 

12 regulation is the development of the most 

13 transparent and safe food and agriculture system. 

14 It is imperative that the NOSB retain its authority 

15 and ability to review, vote, and place on the 

16 National List each synthetic substance used in 

17 organic.

18 No matter what USDA says, organic is not 

19 just a marketing label and success is not just 

20 measured in sales. I'm guessing that you share my 

21 belief in organic as an ecological agriculture 

22 system and a healthy food supply, as well as a major 
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1 solution to climate change. Now, is the time that 

2 our government acknowledge this as well and they 

3 provide the resources necessary for you to get your 

4 job done and uphold organic integrity.

5 The problem is not with the NOP. It is 

6 with the highest reaches of the federal government, 

7 which support a food and agriculture system that 

8 is poisoning our health and environment. They are 

9 not acknowledging the multiple health and 

10 environmental and climate adaptation benefits of 

11 organic. We must demand that as a government and 

12 as a country, we all get to eat clean food; that 

13 as a matter of economic and racial justice, we feed 

14 all of our children and ourselves clean, organic 

15 food.

16 All levels of government, not just the 

17 NOP, must assist in transforming food and 

18 agricultural production and practices to embrace 

19 organic. All parts of USDA must bring every ounce 

20 of scientific technical expertise to aid you in the 

21 review of all materials as thoroughly and as often 

22 as needed.
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1 Imagine what farmer's tools could be 

2 developed if USDA would spend more than the 

3 approximately three percent they spend on organic 

4 research right now. And the marketplace would 

5 respond by developing even more alternative 

6 products, less toxic pesticides, processing aids, 

7 nutrients, et cetera, if our U.S. government was 

8 on this path for a sustainable food future.

9 I have attached some details to my 

10 comments that go into a little more about how I 

11 think that could happen. Thank you very much. 

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Liana, 

13 for your articulate comments. They are much

14 appreciated. Are there any questions from the 

15 Board members? Thanks, Liana.

16 The next speaker is David Guest and he 

17 will be followed by Abby Youngblood.

18 MR. GUEST: Yes, before I start, a 

19 little clarification. No one knows me as David 

20 Guest. That is my given name but everybody knows 

21 me as Jake Guest.

22 My name is Jake Guest. I live in 
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1 Norwich, Vermont. I am an organic farmer. My 

2 wife, Liz, and I grow organic vegetables, cover 

3 crops, and rotational crops on 60 plus acres on and 

4 near the Connecticut River. We also grow organic 

5 in-ground greenhouse tomatoes, and other vegetable 

6 crops in certified organic greenhouses, totaling 

7 approximately 12,000 square feet.

8 I came here today to offer my comments 

9 regarding the NOP's policy of allowing the organic 

10 certification of hydroponically grown tomatoes and 

11 other greenhouse crops. I come to this meeting not 

12 only as an active organic farmer but also as a 

13 long-time participant and respected voice in the 

14 organic community.

15 In 1971, I participated in the meeting 

16 in Westminster, Vermont that was the founding of 

17 the first NOFA, the Natural Organic Farmers 

18 Association. I was a founding Board of Directors 

19 member and served on that Board for several years. 

20 I personally organized the first and many 

21 subsequent NOFA soil amendment bulk orders. 

22 I am the past President and current 
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1 Board member of Vermont Vegetable and Berry Growers 

2 Association. And, incidentally, I personally 

3 wrote the first NOFA Organic Standards. They 

4 weren't very sophisticated but they were a 

5 beginning, part of the beginning of a decades' long 

6 process of evolution, refinement, argument, and 

7 compromise within the organic community that 

8 eventually resulted in the USDA organic standards 

9 of today. I have been with this movement a long 

10 time and I believe that I, and many other people 

11 here, have earned the right to have our opinions 

12 seriously considered. It think it is important 

13 and necessary that groups and individuals making 

14 the decisions that affect these organic standards 

15 keep in mind the history of the organic movement 

16 and the fundamental assumptions that have always 

17 been part of that history. A basic assumption has 

18 always been that what is organic starts with the 

19 soil. From the very beginning over 40 years ago, 

20 the term organic has always implied that 

21 relationship to the soil, to real soil, soil that 

22 is biologically diverse, in balance, soil that 
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1 feeds the plants and feeds us and our animals. 

2 Soil that is in fact alive. 

3 It is my belief, and certainly the 

4 belief of a vast majority of members of the organic 

5 community that the NOP's allowing of the organic 

6 certification, of hydroponic crop production is 

7 not only an inexplicable rejection of the 

8 thoroughly considered recommendations of the NOSB 

9 but also a radical departure from the implicit and 

10 explicit current and historical understanding of 

11 what the term organic actually means. I do not 

12 believe that hydroponic growing methods can ever 

13 be considered organic.

14 Furthermore, I believe that the value 

15 of the organic label will be cheapened when 

16 consumers finally realize that these imported and 

17 domestic so-called organic vegetables are actually 

18 hydroponically grown. I strongly urge that the 

19 NOP no longer allow hydroponically produced crops 

20 to be certified as organic. Thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

22 much, Jake. Questions, comments? Thank you for 
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1 your articulate and passionate presentation. It 

2 is much appreciated.

3 The next speaker is Abby Youngblood of 

4 the National Organic Coalition and she will be 

5 followed by Eric Sideman.

6 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Good afternoon. My 

7 name is Abby Youngblood and I am the Executive 

8 Director of the National Organic Coalition. 

9 First, I want to thank the NOSB members for the work 

10 that you do on behalf of the organic community.

11 And I want to focus my comments on three 

12 issues: genetic contamination, the sunset review 

13 process, and lastly, I will discuss ancillary 

14 substances and nutrient vitamins and minerals.

15 We know that genetic contamination has 

16 been on the NOSB's radar for many years and we 

17 appreciate your work on this issue. Contamination 

18 is happening, despite the organic community's best 

19 efforts to prevent it and organic farmers are 

20 losing out. If we are not able to prevent genetic 

21 contamination, it will be impossible to have an 

22 organic label that is meaningful and has the trust 
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1 of the public. For this reason, we disagree that 

2 this issue is outside the purview of the NOP and 

3 the NOSB. And we urge the NOSB to continue to 

4 communicate directly to the Secretary of 

5 Agriculture about the need for mandatory 

6 prevention measures on the part of patent holders 

7 and users of GE technology.

8 Secondly, I want to touch briefly on the 

9 changes made to the sunset review process in 

10 September of 2013. The new process has resulted 

11 in confusion for NOSB members and the public. One 

12 key problem is that the new process allows 

13 subcommittees to vote on materials without these 

14 decisions going to the full board. This provision 

15 is not consistent with FACA rules or OFPA. So, in 

16 order to have a full board vote, subcommittees vote 

17 to delist a material, even when they want to keep 

18 the material on the National List. This 

19 convoluted process undermines the public's 

20 confidence and it needs to be revised.

21 Lastly, the National Organic Coalition 

22 expects that all substances used to make organic 
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1 foods have either been produced organically or they 

2 have been evaluated and appear on the National List 

3 and only individual substances should appear on the 

4 National List, not groups of substances.

5 For these reasons, we urge the NOSB to 

6 remove nutrient vitamins and minerals from the 

7 National List and we oppose all three proposals on 

8 ancillary substances. While we appreciate the 

9 Handling Subcommittee's efforts to increase 

10 transparency and collect information about the 

11 substances currently being used, a blanket 

12 approval for substances that have not been 

13 evaluated using the OFPA criteria is inappropriate 

14 and, in fact, some of the ancillary substances 

15 being proposed for approval are known or likely 

16 carcinogens.

17 One of the reasons consumers buy 

18 organic foods is to support a food system that does 

19 not harm human health in the environment and we must 

20 make sure the organic label is transparent and 

21 lives up to the standard.

22 Thank you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Abby. 

2 Questions, comments? Yes, Colehour.

3 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay, thank you, 

4 Abby, for your comments. I actually have a simple 

5 question, which is to ask you to expand on your 

6 comments regarding sunset because you ended by 

7 saying that what has been put forth by NOP that we 

8 are trying to implement needs to be revised. And 

9 I would like you to address, if you have any 

10 concrete suggestions of how that could happen or 

11 what it could look like. If you could expand at 

12 all on that. Thank you.

13 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: So, the National 

14 Organic Coalition has a white paper on the sunset 

15 review process that we put out last year and we can 

16 share that with the NOSB but we are advocating that 

17 the process be returned to the previous process 

18 that was in place. So, two-thirds vote of the full 

19 Board in order to keep a material on the National 

20 List.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Any 

22 other questions, comments for Abby? Great. 
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1 Thanks very much, Abby.

2 The next speaker is Eric Sideman and he 

3 will be followed by Ib Hagsten.

4 MR. SIDEMAN: Glad you made it, Zea. 

5 Now, as noted, I am Eric Sideman. I work for the 

6 Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association. 

7 I have worked for them for 30 years, almost 30 years 

8 as their staff scientist. I also served as the 

9 scientist on the NOSB from 1997 to 2002.

10 I have come really with really short 

11 comments. They are general comments. I am going 

12 to leave the specifics up to you. I don't have to 

13 do that anymore. And I also want to note that I 

14 am here in the state of Bernie Sanders and so I 

15 thought I would take a small swipe at capitalism 

16 while I am here. In my time working for MOFGA, I 

17 have seen things change and some of them are pretty 

18 sad.

19 When I started working for MOFGA, we had 

20 14 certified growers and every one of them knew the 

21 principles of organic farming and they weren't 

22 farming for the profit. They were farming because 
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1 that is how they wanted to farm, that is how they 

2 knew organic farming was meant to be.

3 Times have changed. We certify 

4 someplace between 400 and 500 farms now in the State 

5 of Maine. And a good portion of them are farming 

6 because the profit or the competitive advantage in 

7 the marketplace is better with an organic label. 

8 And I now see that there are actually quite a few 

9 commodities not only individual farmers but whole 

10 commodities who would like to use the organic 

11 label.

12 Miles noted these on the Board this 

13 morning and so I won't go into them but I would stay 

14 here and talk about some specific examples when I 

15 get to them. My concern is that some of these 

16 people who want to use the organic label because 

17 it may do them better in the marketplace don't know 

18 the principles of organic farming. 

19 Organic farming started in the early 

20 part of the 20th century in response to poor farming 

21 practices. It was not a consumer-driven movement. 

22 It was a movement driven by academics and 
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1 scientists and farmers. And the reason it was 

2 started, it was driven by this response to poor 

3 farming practices that led to the depletion of the 

4 soil and the shrinking agronomic potential of the 

5 farms. It started off being called humus farming 

6 and the pioneers incorporated various kinds of 

7 practices in their farming that built the soil and 

8 protected it from further degradation. These 

9 practices included incorporating crop residues 

10 into the soil, growing green manures, using 

11 livestock manure wisely, composting, things like 

12 that.

13 The USDA and OFPA did a fine job when 

14 they wrote this into the Congressional Act OFPA and 

15 when they wrote the rule. Especially in the rule, 

16 if you look where they place the shall and the may 

17 and the must in the rule, it shows that they knew 

18 that the principle of organic farming was based 

19 about taking care of the soil.

20 And so I really come here with a very 

21 short request and that is that the NOSB and the NOP 

22 continue on the high road, that they remember that 
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1 the rules don't get changed to match practices in 

2 these commodities but it is the other way around, 

3 that the commodities either have to match the 

4 practices or change their practices to match the 

5 practices.

6 Thank you.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Eric. 

8 Questions, comments? Thank you for your excellent 

9 and articulate comments, they are much 

10 appreciated.

11 The next speaker is Ib Hagsten and he 

12 will be followed by Jay Feldman.

13 MR. HAGSTEN: Ladies and gentlemen, 

14 esteemed members of the National Organic Standards 

15 Board, thank you for the hard and thankless work 

16 that you do on behalf of the integrity of the 

17 organic program.

18 As Vice Chair of IOIA, International 

19 Organic Inspectors Association, I was asked to be 

20 here. Reviewing the agenda, I sent a request for 

21 input from the Board and received totaling 

22 conflicting perspectives on sunset products. So, 
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1 now I can empathize with you.

2 Our perspectives were based on 

3 different in-person inspectors yet we expect you 

4 to make informed decisions based on conflicting 

5 oral and written information. One product was 

6 ethylene. One inspector said, let's get rid of it. 

7 Yet another said, it is essential for pineapple 

8 flowering and there is no alternative.

9 So, now we have to rely on you, the NOSB 

10 members, your best, educated assessment. Use 

11 common sense and diligence and you will be okay with 

12 most of them and most of us will, too.

13 Humic acid is an essential component of 

14 natural occurring soil organic matter. Although, 

15 it is extracted, it is a natural occurring 

16 compound. Not all farms need it, yet many soils 

17 benefit through soil restoration, improvement 

18 mineralization, stimulated plant growth, and 

19 having seven times higher water holding capacity 

20 than clay, making it key for low water uses. 

21 You are challenged to limit 

22 parasiticides and their potential annotations. 
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1 Again, our group is divided. One inspector with 

2 a certified flock of sheep stated clearly he could 

3 not stay in business without ivermectin. I, on the 

4 other hand, worked in the 1900s as a practicing 

5 parasitologist with fenbendazole, developed and 

6 marketed by Hoechst in examining 20,000 fecal 

7 samples.

8 We taught the ag communities to call it 

9 a dewormer as the worms in the larvae do the 

10 worming. Fenbendazole is a premiere dewormer, as 

11 a broader spectrum with the highest efficacy, and 

12 it works strictly in the GI tract, where it is 

13 placed in suspension, paste or in blocks. And once 

14 expelled in the manure, it does not harm the 

15 environment.

16 So, what are you to do, scrap them all? 

17 If you do internal and external parasite control, 

18 the lifecycle, annotations, they believe the 

19 inspectors and the certifiers have to verify. The 

20 computer combines, too.

21 Lastly, comments on ways to improve GM 

22 prevention to improve GE purity standards, NOP 
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1 guidance and GMO testing by the shareholders most 

2 of these admirable in that they are added burdens 

3 in a cost replacement on the organic side of 

4 agriculture or problems foisted upon us by the 

5 scrupulous other side of the USDA conglomerate.

6 As a person who has a split personality 

7 and acts divergently is called, by definition, 

8 schizophrenic. So, what is an agency with a split 

9 personality called? In summary, thank you NOSB 

10 members for what you do.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you Ib. Are 

12 there questions on anything that Ib has brought up?

13 Francis, did you have -- no, okay. 

14 Thank you very much, Ib.

15 The next speaker is Jay Feldman and you 

16 will be followed by Alesia Bock.

17 MR. FELDMAN: Good afternoon, 

18 everybody. A special shout out and thank you to 

19 retiring Board members Calvin, Colehour, Jennifer, 

20 Nick, and Mac, I'm sure USDA has a check waiting 

21 for you as you walk out the door.

22 And also the rest of you. Obviously, 
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1 the role you play is very important. I think we 

2 should be celebrating organic as part of this

3 meeting before we get into the criticism of 

4 organic, the continued growth of organic is the 

5 solution to the poisoning of people and the 

6 environment that is associated with chemical 

7 intensive agriculture. However, the success is 

8 wholly reliant on public trust in the market. 

9 Therefore, we must ensure that the 

10 NOSB's decisions and process adhere to the law in 

11 meeting the standards of review in three areas, as 

12 you know, adverse effects of the materials, 

13 compatibility with organic practices, and 

14 essentiality to production. This law and the 

15 standards must be nurtured by the leadership of the 

16 NOSB, the involvement of the public, and the 

17 engagement of USDA. We have gotten here with clear 

18 standards and reviews of materials that are subject 

19 to public hearing and comment. We must build 

20 public trust in the independent review 

21 responsibility given to the NOSB by statute, which 

22 Senator Leahy referred to this morning in the 
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1 video. These decisions include materials 

2 decisions for which we have submitted comments, and 

3 I hope you have a chance to look at the Beyond 

4 Pesticides comments, process issues that go to the 

5 governance of the Board and public opportunity for 

6 involvement, as well as the critical emerging and 

7 emergent issues that need attention. And you have 

8 heard about those GMO contamination through 

9 genetic drift, contamination of farm inputs.

10 So, I would like to spend the rest of 

11 my time talking about principles of process. In 

12 terms of this meeting, this Board should not be 

13 reversing a previous Board decision without 

14 substantive justification. The inerts 

15 recommendation violates this basic principle. 

16 The Board voted unanimously in 2012 and previous 

17 to that in 2010 twice to begin a review process of 

18 inert ingredients, identified the inerts requiring 

19 review, and establish a measured process of review 

20 over a five-year period. The NOP published 

21 procedures in 2013, albeit without public comment, 

22 that prohibits annotations at sunset. Now, we are 
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1 told that you are advancing an annotation at the 

2 same time as sunset. Where is the petition in that 

3 process? That is a process question. The NOSB 

4 should not conspire to this failure process and 

5 should reject the annotation proposed by the crops 

6 committee. It broadens the allowed materials, is 

7 reliant an EPA list not subject to public review, 

8 and doesn't ensure compliance with OFPA standards.

9 Thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Jay. 

11 Questions? Jennifer, then Nick. Oh, Nick, okay. 

12 Nick.

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: Jay, did you hear the 

14 exchange between Harriet and Zea about relying on 

15 the EPA list but having NOSB and NOP input?

16 MR. FELDMAN: I did hear that.

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: I don't quite 

18 understand all the subtleties in that. What was 

19 your takeaway on that exchange?

20 MR. FELDMAN: Well, the finding of the 

21 Board, after laborious conversations of the NOSB 

22 was that the Board needed to review independent 
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1 materials in accordance with OPFA standards. So, 

2 yes, you can rely on other mechanisms, other lists 

3 coming from other agencies but, obviously, you to 

4 double-check that those standards, the OPFA 

5 standards are met. 

6 So, that is the hitch. The current 

7 language you have in front of you simply refers to 

8 the list. And simply accepting a list, when the 

9 statute says materials that are not of toxicologic 

10 concern and you have a list of over 700 materials, 

11 some of which have toxicologic concern, there is 

12 a mismatch there between the standards governing 

13 the safer chemicals list and the standards that 

14 ensure that the Board creates a list or maintains 

15 a list that is not of toxicological concern.

16 MEMBER MARAVELL: So, do you see a 

17 mechanism or a way that the NOP and the NOSB could 

18 constructively review the EPA list and then make 

19 our decision?

20 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

21 MEMBER MARAVELL: You do?

22 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I think the list is 
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1 a tool that can be used where it matches up with 

2 OFPA. But, as Terry pointed out, there are 

3 different categories within that list, which makes 

4 it difficult to take, in whole, take that list and 

5 basically affirm its allowance under OFPA. That 

6 is not feasible. And so I think, again, the 

7 language that has been proposed by the Crops 

8 Committee would take us away from that process of 

9 independent review, which I thought this Board had 

10 agreed to, in terms of coming up with a five-year 

11 plan, breaking down the list into chemicals that 

12 have common mechanism of tox or same chemical 

13 family. This has all been discussed. So, this 

14 seems like a substantive change to me that doesn't 

15 really seem justified in the proposal.

16 And besides the fact that this is an 

17 annotation at sunset, even though it is being 

18 called an annotation at the same time as sunset. 

19 Do you see the difference there? And that is a very 

20 troubling development, given the publication of 

21 the Federal Register in 2013 on the new sunset 

22 process and lack of annotation.
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: Does the program 

2 have anything --

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: One more follow-up 

4 and then we will move to Tom.

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: Does the program 

6 have any comment on any of those points?

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Emily, do you want to 

8 say anything at this point? No. Yes?

9 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Sure. I think the 

10 point was that the current EPA List 4 is over 800 

11 chemicals and many, many of them are of 

12 toxicological concern. I think you would agree to 

13 that. That is what has been reviewed and renewed 

14 at every sunset for the last ten years.

15 So, we are trying to move away from that 

16 to something better and something more in line with 

17 organic principles. So, initially, when we 

18 discussed it with EPA and talked about working with 

19 them and asking them to help us with the review, 

20 they did not have a mechanism. So, then the Board 

21 worked forward with the proposals to review and 

22 cluster on the committee. 
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1 So but then, the change in thinking 

2 amount the committee and the inert working group 

3 was that the SCIL program came online. It has 

4 identified a list of specific ingredients that seem 

5 to match up pretty good with the inerts, a lot of 

6 categories used as inerts and pesticides. And 

7 what's more, their screening methods are extremely 

8 rigorous and, in the document, there is a 

9 side-by-side comparison of all the screening tests 

10 they used which is, I think, even more expensive 

11 than the NOC had proposed in the original proposal. 

12 So, it seemed like a good match.

13 The idea, as far as oversight, I mean 

14 I think we can fine tune things in this proposal, 

15 as far as continuing oversight. But certainly, if 

16 some kind of listing to refer as SCIL as added to 

17 our list, then NOSB has oversight over that listing 

18 every five years at sunset and could choose to do 

19 it more frequently, if they wanted. There is 

20 nothing saying you can't review sunset items more 

21 often than five years to go through and highlight 

22 if any problems have come along under the SCIL list.
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1 I mean we still envision petitions 

2 being available on inerts and also reference to the 

3 inerts of minimal risk, as well, so that the 

4 manufacturers have several options, doesn't take 

5 away options, and it will be a gradual 

6 implementation to work toward a future change that 

7 we think would be better than the current List 4, 

8 which is still hopelessly out of date.

9 So, that is the thing. I don't know if 

10 I exactly addressed your question but I would be 

11 happy to go further.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, this isn't a 

13 simple subject by any means at all. I'm sure this 

14 isn't the last we have heard about it. So, perhaps 

15 we could leave it at that just now and then take 

16 it up later when we get into -- we will be discussing 

17 it when we get into the voting, I think, some, too.

18 Okay, I'm sorry. Jennifer, you had one 

19 more question. Sorry. My apologies.

20 MEMBER TAYLOR: It kind of was covered 

21 in what Nick said but I did want to hear now in 

22 response to what Emily has said, how do you think 
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1 we should proceed, with that additional 

2 information?

3 MR. FELDMAN: Well, Emily, I think you 

4 would admit there are a lot of coulds and 

5 possibilities in your description. And partly I 

6 think the problems we are experiencing now is the 

7 lack of clarity around the procedures that we use. 

8 So, I would feel more comfortable and I think the 

9 community would feel more comfortable if we had a 

10 clear process in front of us.

11 For instance, if you know the list has 

12 26 percent materials that have toxic properties, 

13 then you put that in a different category of review 

14 than you would put the other list. If you know some 

15 of the materials haven't been reviewed for 

16 essentiality or agronomic practices, you put that 

17 in a separate list.

18 So, it is not as simple as just taking 

19 a list in whole and suggesting we could, would, 

20 should, may. You can bring it back to sunset. We 

21 all know what that means.

22 Part of the reason we are have this 
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1 problem right now is because we created a temporary 

2 fix. I think people did believe that List 4 inerts 

3 would be reviewed, especially List 4(b) that are 

4 known to be toxic but are viewed by EPA as not 

5 creating an exposure scenario of concern.

6 So, given those historical problems, 

7 let's get it right. I think we can get it right 

8 and there is a lot of leadership on this Board that 

9 can move this along in a much more prescribed way 

10 that ensures adequate review.

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, great. 

13 Thank you.

14 Well, we have reached four o'clock, 

15 which is our break time. I would like to know is 

16 Alesia Bock there and Jim Pierce? Would it be 

17 possible for you to wait 15 minutes? Okay.

18 With that, I would like us to take 15 

19 minutes' break and we will start very promptly at 

20 exactly 4:15. Thank you.

21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

22 went off the record at 4:00 p.m. and resumed at 4:16 
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1 p.m.)

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Are we 

3 ready? Are we ready? 

4 All right, the first speaker in this 

5 section is Alesia Bock of AgriSystems Organic 

6 Consulting and she will be followed by Jim Pierce.

7 Alesia, thank you.

8 MS. BOCK: Thank you. My name is 

9 Alesia, as you said, Director of AgriSystems 

10 Consulting based out of Columbus, Ohio. Thank you 

11 for the opportunity to provide comments today. I 

12 am here relaying feedback on behalf of several of 

13 my clients who couldn't be here, as well as for 

14 myself as a food industry professional and an 

15 organic consumer.

16 First of all, regarding crops, we 

17 support the micronutrients annotation change to 

18 remove the word by testing, as proposed by the Crops 

19 Subcommittee. In addition, we support relisting 

20 materials on the 2017 subset crops list, 

21 specifically copper sulfate and magnesium sulfate, 

22 which are used to adjust input levels in greenhouse 
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1 fertilizer applications. And regarding elemental 

2 sulfur, we support relisting this material, which 

3 is used to address powdery mildew in greenhouse 

4 applications.

5 Secondly, we support the petition to 

6 add sodium lactate and potassium lactate as 

7 antimicrobial agents for meat and poultry products 

8 and we support relisting celery powder as an 

9 antimicrobial for meat and poultry products. 

10 These antimicrobials are all critical to ensure 

11 that natural organic uncured meat is safe for 

12 consumers, since not all meat companies can afford 

13 to solely use high-pressure pasteurization to 

14 process meats.

15 For handling, we fully support 

16 relisting all sanitizers for indirect food contact 

17 surface cleaning, as listed in 205.605(b). These 

18 materials are critical to ensure that food safety 

19 is maintained for organic consumers. Nothing will 

20 erode consumer confidence more quickly than a food 

21 safety recall.

22 Finally, regarding the Spring 2015 NOSB 
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1 recommendation to add acidified sodium chloride as 

2 a pre- and post-teat dip for livestock in 

3 205.603(a), we would ask NOP to act quickly to add 

4 this to the list as soon as possible to address 

5 animal welfare concerns, due to emerging issues 

6 with iodine and NPE.

7 Thank you for your time.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you for your 

9 comments. Yes, questions from Francis.

10 MEMBER THICKE: If sodium and 

11 potassium lactate are on the list, will celery 

12 powder be as needed no the list?

13 MS. BOCK: Right now, celery powder is 

14 used to be able to convert the nitrate. Instead 

15 of adding sodium nitrate for curing meats, the only 

16 thing that is allowed in natural meat products is 

17 to have a natural conversion.

18 MEMBER THICKE: Right. It is right 

19 nitrate but --

20 MS. BOCK: It is different than the 

21 preservative effect of lactate and potassium 

22 lactate. Two different things.
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1 MEMBER THICKE: The lactate does 

2 provide some keeping with preservation qualities, 

3 right?

4 MS. BOCK: Preservation for once the 

5 package is open.

6 MEMBER THICKE: I'm sorry?

7 MS. BOCK: Once the packages are open, 

8 preservation.

9 MEMBER THICKE: Oh.

10 MS. BOCK: So, it is different. So, 

11 the celery powder is used to convert nitrate to 

12 nitrate but the sodium lactate and potassium 

13 lactate are preservation systems to help control 

14 listeria.

15 CAIR RICHARDSON: Francis, did you 

16 follow that? 

17 MS. BOCK: Sorry, I might have been 

18 speaking fast.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I didn't quite hear 

20 you. You were speaking even faster than I do.

21 MS. BOCK: Right.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other questions 
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1 for Alesia? Thank you very much for your comments. 

2 We much appreciate it.

3 The next speaker is Jim Pierce and he 

4 will be followed by Alexis Randolph.

5 MR. PIERCE: Hello. I am Jim Pierce, 

6 speaking to you today as a citizen, a usual suspect 

7 standards conservative, materials liberal, tools 

8 in the tool box, feeling the burn, card carrying 

9 lumper citizen. I'm here to talk to you about deep 

10 versus wide organic pineapples, internal 

11 parasites, and quality.

12 Quality is like sex. It is all good and 

13 it can always be better. And the improvement of 

14 quality on the NOSB and at the NOP deserves an 

15 organic metaphoric cigarette.

16 Preparation of documents, 

17 communication for feedback focus on the results of 

18 the comments, including the webinar comments has 

19 all been stellar. Well done.

20 Gunnar Rundgren is a usual suspect and 

21 author in the EU organic circle, who coined the 

22 concept of deep versus wide organic. Deep organic 
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1 is the soul, the purity intent that legitimizes and 

2 protects the brand, while wide organic is the body. 

3 The transition, expansion, and passion, that saves 

4 farms and feeds children. These two 

5 simplifications are simultaneously synergistic 

6 and conflicting and, in a nutshell, it is your job.

7 The quality of your recommendations 

8 this cycle is outstanding but the reality of 

9 recommending to delist so many materials is 

10 distressing. My concerns were mitigated upon 

11 learning that your intent was to relist where 

12 comments confirmed the need. That is good, 

13 scriptural even. Wherever two or more are 

14 gathered to use a material, it shall be relisted, 

15 or something like that, if it is compatible with 

16 a system of organic farming.

17 Ethylene gas, though, was proposed for 

18 removal because it is primarily needed by large 

19 growers. My expertise with pineapples doesn't get 

20 much beyond pina coladas but there are 42 written 

21 comments in support of relisting ethylene gas, 

22 which I hope will carry the day.
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1 Your recommendation to delist two 

2 parasiticides, ivermectin and moxidectin, while 

3 relisting fenbendazole is right one. As one of the 

4 original petitioners, working at the time with 

5 organic practicing veterinarians, this is exactly 

6 what we intended. Another longer comment would be 

7 to justify the use of fenbendazole in organ 

8 slaughter stock. So, good for you for beginning 

9 that discussion and starting that conversation.

10 Every iteration at the NOSB leaves a 

11 legacy. As this sunset pig moves through the 

12 python, your legacy, to your credit, will be 

13 tighter scrutiny of the materials, which is good. 

14 The result will be a list of higher quality.

15 When the Pope visited America, he 

16 repeatedly told leaders that their underlying 

17 ultimate responsibility was to the common good of 

18 the people. Mark Kastel said to give loyalty to 

19 the NOP when they deserve it. I say keep thinking 

20 about quality. It can always be better. Thank 

21 you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Jim. 
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1 Questions for Jim? We are going to let you off the 

2 hook this time. Thank you very much, Jim.

3 The next speaker is Alexis Randolph 

4 from QAI and she will be followed by Stephen Walker 

5 from MOSA.

6 MS. RANDOLPH: Good afternoon, 

7 everyone. My name is Alexis Randolph. I am the 

8 technical manager at QAI, an organic certification 

9 agency. Today, I will be sharing with you some 

10 organic system plan information that QAI requires 

11 so that the Board can learn a little bit about what 

12 organic farmers and handlers must do before using 

13 materials currently on the National List.

14 This is a question from our producer 

15 application about soil fertility and crop nutrient 

16 management. We stress that soil fertility and 

17 nutrients must be managed through the use of crop 

18 rotations, covered crops, the application of plant 

19 or animal materials and inspectors verify these 

20 practices are being utilized to ensure the farmer 

21 is not merely relying on inputs. We also inquire 

22 about the effectiveness of the fertility 
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1 management program and how the producer is 

2 monitoring it, which may include soil or tissue 

3 testing, visual observations, and comparisons of 

4 yield from year to year.

5 We asked about soil erosion and 

6 conservation practices used, such as terracing, 

7 waterway management, wind breaks, and 

8 interplanting, to name just a few.

9 Farmers describe their strategies for 

10 physical and mechanical pest and weed control, 

11 again, to ensure farmers are not reaching for 

12 inputs from the National List unnecessarily, as a 

13 reaction to problems which could otherwise be 

14 resolved. These are just a few questions from a 

15 15-page organic system plan document.

16 When inputs are used, we include in our 

17 review most importantly, the reason for use. The 

18 whole system approach to farming is evaluated 

19 before any material on the National List is 

20 approved by a certifier.

21 Switching to handlers, they also have 

22 to complete a comprehensive organic system plan, 
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1 which includes commercial availability search 

2 requirements for every material on 205.606 and many 

3 on 605. Before using one of these nonorganic 

4 ingredients, we require handlers to identify 

5 potential suppliers of organic alternatives, 

6 describe characteristics of the ingredient, which 

7 are essential, explain in detail why the form, 

8 quality, or quantity of a potential organic 

9 alternative does not work for their product or 

10 processing method. Handlers also need to explain 

11 how they will continue accepting to find an 

12 acceptable organic alternative, including ongoing 

13 R&D and contracts to secure the supply chain.

14 We obtained spec sheets for every 

15 nonorganic ingredient used with full ingredient 

16 disclosure, including ancillary substances. QAI 

17 also thoroughly reviews all nonorganic ingredient 

18 materials, such as boiler additives, pest control 

19 materials, cleaners, sanitizers to ensure 

20 compliance, which includes residue testing as 

21 necessary.

22 QAI submitted written comments about 
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1 many of the materials up for 2017 sunset. Most 

2 recently, colors. Although numerous colors exist 

3 in organic form, the organic petitioner, GNT, 

4 confirmed that none are available in powder form. 

5 Seventy-three percent of QAI clients using colors 

6 are using organic colors, if available. 

7 Nonorganic colors are still necessary.

8 This is the perfect example of how the 

9 certification process is working. Many of QAI's 

10 clients use materials on the National List as 

11 producers, livestock operations, and handlers. 

12 By keeping materials on the National List, you 

13 allow certifiers to do our job by approving the use

14 of materials within the context of a larger organic 

15 system plan.

16 I would like to thank the Board and the 

17 NOP for your hard work and dedication upholding the 

18 integrity of organic standards.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

20 Questions for Alexis? Great. Thank you very 

21 much. We appreciate it.

22 I know you have also sent in detailed 
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1 written comments which I know we have also read. 

2 Thank you very much.

3 MS. RANDOLPH: Thanks. And thank you, 

4 Mac, so much, for representing us. I appreciate

5 it.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

7 Stephen Walker, to be followed by Bill Wolf.

8 MR. WALKER: Good afternoon. I am 

9 Steve Walker, the Compliance Manager at MOSA 

10 Organic Certification. We prepared six written 

11 comments plus a table summarizing our certified 

12 operations use of sunset materials. My colleague, 

13 Jackie DeMinter, touched on most of these during 

14 her webinar comment and today, I have thoughts on 

15 the excluded methods prevention guidance.

16 Most of the 1600 operations we certify 

17 are in the Midwest, the Bread Basket, and a GMO hot 

18 zone. We review many GMO prevention plans and also 

19 investigate contamination cases. So, we 

20 certainly appreciate the various issues identified 

21 and we have got some feedback.

22 Most of the cited standards refer to 
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1 avoidance of contact with prohibited substances. 

2 We review plans for GMO contact avoidance but we 

3 usually frame GMO use as a prohibited method. The 

4 NOP doesn't clearly address incidental GMO 

5 contamination. In the Midwest, GMO material is 

6 practically everywhere. The proposal indicates 

7 certifiers should evaluate practices adequacy to 

8 avoid GMO contact. Unfortunately, the strategies 

9 can't be expected to prevent all contamination. 

10 We encourage enforceable and realistic guidance 

11 language.

12 Here are some thoughts on some of the 

13 specific best practices. First, seed used on 

14 organic farms must have no detectable GMO 

15 contamination but we don't think it is sensible to 

16 require producers to test purchased seed. That 

17 burden should be on the seed suppliers.

18 For those who rent pollinators, we 

19 support guidance to prevent GMO pollen 

20 contamination but, with a typical forage radius 

21 monitoring feral hives, is impractical and could 

22 be misconstrued as encouraging removal of wild bee 
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1 populations.

2 Isolating at-risk crops is a good 

3 practice but can be impractical. Lack of GMO 

4 contamination thresholds means suitable isolation 

5 can't be determined. On the other hand, 

6 establishing a threshold may hurt a strong organic 

7 is non-GMO message. This Catch-22 also effects 

8 handlers checking for input contamination. And we 

9 wonder if requiring non-GMO handler inputs should 

10 extend to ancillary substances. This creates 

11 another challenge in balancing practicality with 

12 non-GMO messaging. We would like clarification on 

13 our role in investigating suspected GMO 

14 contamination. Ubiquitous GMO presence may be 

15 suspected in many responsible organic operations. 

16 Clearly, we investigate suspected GMO use but we 

17 need practical guidance on when investigation is 

18 warranted.

19 We appreciate this effort to define 

20 best practices in upholding our end of the 

21 coexistence effort. These build the necessary 

22 message that organic is non-GMO and has many other 
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1 benefits. That is the carrot. It is better to 

2 teach with kindness. At the same time, Mother 

3 Nature carries a big stick.

4 Let's continue vigilance in pointing 

5 out koyaanisqatsi, life out of balance, when we see 

6 it.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

8 much. Questions, comments from the Board? Yes, 

9 Nick.

10 MEMBER MARAVELL: You were suggesting 

11 that organic seed be tested for GMO content and you 

12 were suggesting that that not be paid for by the 

13 person planting the seed, the organic farmer 

14 planting the seed. You said it should be paid for 

15 by the seed supplier. Would you talk specifically 

16 what would the seed supplier test for and is that 

17 seed supplier, for example, I am a seed producer, 

18 am I considered, in your thinking on this, as the 

19 seed supplier or if I sell that to a seed company, 

20 are they the seed supplier?

21 And then what specifically would you 

22 test for and then what would you do with the result?
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1 MR. WALKER: Yes, I think our main idea 

2 here is that it is not practical to have each farmer 

3 using an organic or a commercial availability 

4 allowance to test that seed. And where I said seed 

5 suppliers, what I am really getting at is pushing 

6 the burden upstream or the downstream.

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: Well, I might be 

8 upstream. But let me ask you, are you suggesting 

9 this is only for organic seed producers or would 

10 conventional seed producers who are supplying to 

11 organic farmers because they can't find a suitable 

12 organic variety, would they be required to test?

13 MR. WALKER: Conventional as well. 

14 Again, it is about shifting the burden and having 

15 the polluters pay. I think that is the angle here. 

16 If it is -- there is an organic trust issue if 

17 organic seed has contamination levels. We talked 

18 about that some. And then certainly, there is more 

19 risk with nonorganic seed.

20 MEMBER MARAVELL: And I have one final 

21 question and that is one of the most invidious forms 

22 of GMO contamination that could potentially affect 
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1 my seed supply is dust because farms that are 

2 surrounding me are not organic. When their 

3 combines go through, I have got to prevent the dust. 

4 Well, I can't prevent the dust if my crop is still 

5 standing in the field. So, I was wondering, is 

6 there a way, when you run a test, to determine 

7 whether or not what you are finding is able to 

8 propagate or not? In other words, if you send in 

9 a sample of soybean seed or corn seed and it has 

10 got dust on it from a GMO farm that was adjacent 

11 to you, when you plant that out, it won't grow GMO. 

12 But if you test it, because our testing procedures 

13 are so accurate now, it will come out as positive 

14 for GMO. Is there any way to get around that 

15 problem? Because that is a very serious problem.

16 MR. WALKER: I think that is what we are 

17 speaking to is practicality in the guidance. And 

18 if it is a total GMO prevention of effort, I have 

19 probably got GMO dust on my eyelashes right now.

20 In our written comments, we cited a 

21 report from Ohio State University which I think 

22 says you need a minimum of 660-foot buffer to get 
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1 99 percent purity in organic corn seed. And as you 

2 indicated, that is just not practical. And we did 

3 some math. We said for a square 10-acre field, you 

4 need 80 acres of buffer to get at that 660-foot --

5 it is an acre for every 66 feet of fence row. And 

6 so 80 acres for 10 is eight times. If you have a 

7 bigger field, it goes down to three times but it 

8 is still not practical. So, how do you balance 

9 that with an organic is non-GMO message? Let's 

10 talk about these good preventive practices. And 

11 we agree with most of them. We are just pointing 

12 out a few exceptions here that are problematic. 

13 Let's talk about all the good that we 

14 do but be careful with the messaging because it 

15 could be misleading.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

17 very much, Stephen. Are there any other questions 

18 or comments?

19 Great, we will go on to the next speaker 

20 which is Bill Wolf and he will be followed by Bob 

21 McGee.

22 MR. WOLF: Wow. First, I want to thank 
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1 you all for your dedication and your hard work. I 

2 am here before you today on behalf of Wolf, DiMatteo 

3 and Associates but also, more importantly, the 

4 trillions of earthworms we want to encourage with 

5 a restorative, organic agricultural system and I 

6 want to talk about the big picture that would help 

7 those guys and all of us.

8 Do we want organic agriculture to be 

9 truly transformative or will we be the Luddite 

10 movement of the 21st century?

11 Our vision for organic farming 40 years 

12 ago was to become the mainstream progressive, 

13 renewable, sustainable system that produces 

14 affordable, healthy food and fiber available to 

15 everyone. It would lead the way from the 

16 mechanistic era to a biological cooperative method 

17 that protects and regenerates our ecosystem, 

18 healthy soils, plants, animals, and people.

19 We can still do this but right now, we 

20 are getting stuck in the weeds. Farmers in the 

21 U.S. are not embracing organic and we are importing 

22 more and more ingredients. The attacks on organic 
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1 from within our community, the organic 

2 perfectionist circular firing squad, has provided

3 the fuel to damage the brand and the trust of the 

4 public. And now many competing feel good label 

5 claims are less expensive; non-GMO, local, 

6 natural, all of those. The result: organic 

7 products are a niche and are considered elitist by 

8 many because most people can't afford them; thus, 

9 choosing other alternatives.

10 So, I ask three things. One, unify and 

11 promote organic instead of giving our critics 

12 ammunition. Be proud. Organic is the most 

13 transparent public open source standard in the 

14 world from seed to table. Two, be open to 

15 innovation that fits the organic philosophy. 

16 Encourage biodiversity and creativity. Let's not 

17 nitpick is number three. Don't reject progress 

18 while waiting for the perfect. We are at risk of 

19 being sidetracked.

20 When organic agriculture systems are 

21 working right, it is amazing for the planet and all 

22 the creatures on it. We have submitted many 
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1 written comments from past meetings, as well as 

2 Catherine's oral comments and they cover a range 

3 of topics. I don't have time to go over all of 

4 those today but biodegradable mulch is one of them. 

5 Keeping the National List progressive and open is 

6 another. Moving quickly to encourage pest 

7 controls by implementing the EPA's safer choice 

8 program, implementing the guidance document on 

9 materials, promoting compost, rather than 

10 restricting it by approving -- 

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. You 

13 finished right on the buzzer, which is pretty good. 

14 So, you do get the magic star for that one. 

15 Questions, comments for Bill? Yes, Calvin.

16 MEMBER WALKER: A two-part question. 

17 Under shirt, I believe you mentioned you have the 

18 winning shirt from last Board meeting. And that 

19 is a comment I guess.

20 The second question is, could you share 

21 with us some ideas on we could grow more organic 

22 grain in the U.S. instead of all the imports?
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1 MR. WOLF: Okay, well on the first part 

2 question, I am very proud of winning this shirt at 

3 the last meeting. Truly, thank you. But I wish 

4 it were organic fiber. That is my only complaint 

5 about that shirt.

6 The second question is a little more 

7 complicated. There are a lot of good things that 

8 can be done to encourage organic acreage and I think 

9 part of it belongs in decisions made here and part 

10 of it belongs in the entire community.

11 In terms of this whole idea of allowing 

12 the most progressive, most positive available 

13 tools, that is a major piece. We should be looking 

14 at our decisions, partially, in terms of what 

15 acreage can -- how we can encourage acreage. So, 

16 how can we get more Oliver the Earthworm going?

17 And I think approving tools for 

18 farmers, whether it is biodegradable mulch or more 

19 viable pest controls and moving the pest control 

20 program forward quickly. And on that note, I don't 

21 quite understand the resistance to using the EPA 

22 Safer Program as a starting point because, in fact, 
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1 that is what the Organic Foods Production Act said. 

2 The Organic Foods Production Act specifically 

3 called out the EPA to be responsible to review 

4 inerts. So, we seem to be somewhat selective about 

5 where we use OFPA and where we don't.

6 I think we also should put the burden 

7 on increasing the use of organic seed by requiring 

8 testing of the nonorganic seed that is going into 

9 the system, where there is actually no 

10 requirements. 

11 I think in the private sector, we could 

12 be encouraging and creating a B2B transition label. 

13 Organic Trade Association is working on that now. 

14 I think the most important thing is to create a 

15 stable standards platform.

16 This relatively new approach to sunset 

17 or a standardization is one of many examples of 

18 having a stable regulatory platform. Farmers I 

19 know who talk to me about whether they are going 

20 to go into organics say they are scared of going 

21 into organic because they are not sure what the 

22 standard is going to be next week or next month or 
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1 next year. And so that is a real risk. Be 

2 consistent. So, those are a few ideas.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Francis, do you 

4 have a question?

5 MEMBER THICKE: Yes, thank you, Bill. 

6 I don't know if you are the right person to ask this 

7 but you mentioned bio-based mulch. Do you know 

8 what the ultimate state of that is on the molecular 

9 level when it breaks down? If it is 10 percent 

10 biological based material and 90 percent petroleum 

11 based, what happens to that when it breaks down?

12 MR. WOLF: Well, the original source 

13 materials originated from different forms of 

14 carbon. That is where that 10 to 20 percent of the 

15 bio-based mulch content, depending on which 

16 manufacturer, came from plant materials and 80 

17 percent, according to the OMRI report came 

18 originally from petroleum based carbons. But the 

19 actual polymer that is produced is very similar and 

20 so it is not petroleum that is in the product. It 

21 is a polymer that is manufactured and has a little 

22 more flexibility -- I am not a scientist on this. 
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1 I have read the papers and my understanding is that 

2 at the end of the day, those two polymers are very 

3 similar.

4 MEMBER THICKE: And they break down.

5 MR. WOLF: Well, they both break down. 

6 The end result is a breakdown into carbon dioxide 

7 and water, through biological means. And I have 

8 experimented with the material myself in my own 

9 gardens and then attempted to remove it, in order 

10 to comply with the rule and keep my farm organic. 

11 It wasn't easy. I left pieces that eventually 

12 disappeared. So, perhaps, I don't have an organic 

13 farm now, at least at this point.

14 The bottom line is that it is a little 

15 confusing when somebody says oh, it is made from 

16 petroleum. Many, many materials on the National 

17 List are made from petroleum. It wasn't one of the 

18 criteria that the petitioner originally evaluated 

19 or the technical reviewer evaluated. It was added 

20 as an annotation during the committee discussions 

21 after the technical review, which today would not 

22 be allowed.
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1 MEMBER THICKE: Right. I guess my 

2 concern is the breakdown product. I know carbon 

3 dioxide and water would be somewhat -- are there 

4 residual chemicals that are not --

5 MR. WOLF: Not according to the 

6 National Sanitation Foundation, the ANSI 

7 standards, or all of the science that we have looked 

8 at. It is the same polymer. It is just the source 

9 parent material that was in question.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Zea, 

11 you have a question?

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, Bill, you 

13 opened yourself up to this. If it is the same 

14 polymer, why can't they make a higher percentage 

15 from bio-based material?

16 MR. WOLF: Well, I may be overstating 

17 the same polymer. The explanation that I have been 

18 given was it has to do with tensile characteristics 

19 and the blending. And I think that that is the 

20 ideal goal, to be 100 percent bio-based. I think 

21 that would be great. We are not there yet.

22 And I had the impression, my 
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1 understanding, when those discussions were 

2 occurring in providence, that what was being 

3 approved was a standard and an annotation that said 

4 we would test for the content and then five years 

5 later, we would determine if we could elevate the 

6 platform and say okay now, we are going to require 

7 X percent because we saw that movement. 

8 Does that answer what your question is?

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

10 very much, Bill. I see no more questions.

11 MR. WOLF: Thank you.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

13 Bob McGee and he will be followed by Linley Dixon.

14 MR. MCGEE: Good afternoon and thank 

15 you for the opportunity to talk with you this 

16 afternoon. My name is Bob McGee. I am the 

17 President of Straus Family Creamery. Straus 

18 Family Creamery was founded in 1994 and was the 

19 first 100 percent certified organic creamery in the 

20 country. And in 2010, we became the first creamery 

21 that verified all of our farms under the Non-GMO 

22 Project.
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1 And the reason I am here this afternoon, 

2 like several others, is to speak in support of the 

3 proposed prevention strategy guidance for excluded 

4 methods submitted by the Materials Subcommittee. 

5 The recommendations contained in the report will 

6 give organic producers and handlers strategies to 

7 prevent GMO contamination and provide certifiers 

8 with guidelines for testing and sampling. At the 

9 same time, we hope this is just a first step to 

10 actually including testing as part of the rule. 

11 As has been said many times, consumers 

12 are asking more and more questions about where 

13 their food comes from, what is in it and how it is 

14 produced. The future of the organic system is 

15 predicated on maintaining consumers' complete 

16 faith and trust in the integrity of the organic 

17 label. And certifiers must be equipped with the 

18 tools to enforce this regulation. For us, the 

19 livelihoods of the eight family farms that supply 

20 us milk depend upon it.

21 In 2011, a study conducted by the OTA 

22 showed that 11 percent of corn labeled as organic 
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1 was contaminated. Earlier this afternoon, we 

2 heard the President of CCOF Certification Services 

3 say that their residue testing is showing 

4 contamination in corn, soy, and now in alfalfa. 

5 Clearly, our best efforts at prevention strategies 

6 have not been completely successful. That is why 

7 the committee's report is needed and timely but, 

8 again, just a first step.

9 As noted in Appendix A of the proposal, 

10 quote, testing is one of the most definite and 

11 effective tools certifiers can use to evaluate 

12 whether an organic operation has adequate measures 

13 in place to prevent comingling with nonorganic GMO 

14 crops, as well as intentional or unintentional 

15 contact with GMOs. We hope that the Materials GMO 

16 Subcommittee will go beyond simply a guidance 

17 recommendation on sampling and testing and move to 

18 rulemaking. We believe it is important to require 

19 that a portion of the required residue testing be 

20 for GMOs and certifiers report the results of those 

21 tests, so we can know how effective it is.

22 In summary, I urge the NOP to accept the 
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1 proposal, publish guidance, and then move towards 

2 testing for GMOs as part of the rule. Thank you.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

4 Comments, questions? You're lucky. You are 

5 getting off with no questions. Thank you very 

6 much, Bob.

7 Before we got to the next speaker, just 

8 a quick reminder to everybody that even though you 

9 can't see Harold, he has, for the last several hours 

10 been listening in on Skype and so he is still there. 

11 He is still listening to the public comments.

12 The next speaker is Linley Dixon and he 

13 will be followed by Rudy Amador.

14 MS. DIXON: Good afternoon. My name 

15 is Linley Dixon. I am a policy analyst for The 

16 Cornucopia Institute. I own 110-member CSA Farm 

17 and Farmer's Market Vegetable farm in Durango, 

18 Colorado. I have a master's degree in plant and 

19 soil science and a Ph.D. in plant pathology. One 

20 of the biggest problems facing the organic industry 

21 today is that young farmers like me are not getting 

22 certified. It is not because organic activists 
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1 are hurting the label but because we don't identify 

2 with the industrial monoculture style operations 

3 that are currently getting certified.

4 I would like to testify today about how 

5 the abuse of copper on some of these operations 

6 allows them to get away with a lack of plant 

7 diversity on their farms. I have extensive 

8 knowledge of plant disease management in both 

9 conventional and organic systems, as a farmer 

10 researcher with the USDA ARS. I have previously 

11 testified to the abuse of copper, used on split 

12 organic conventional tomato operations on the east 

13 coast in particular.

14 I have personally visited these 

15 monoculture style operations that use weekly 

16 copper sprays as their primary disease management 

17 strategy on their organic crop. Sprays are needed 

18 every seven to ten days because copper fungicides 

19 are protectants, meaning that once infection has 

20 occurred, copper has no effect on disease progress 

21 in the plant. So, it must be applied to the foliage 

22 before infection and reapplied as plants are 
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1 exposed to the inoculate through the season.

2 Typically, each spray with a 

3 copper-based fungicide results in an application 

4 of one to four pounds of copper per acre, which 

5 raises the topsoil concentration approximately one 

6 to two parts per million every spray. Some tomato 

7 farmers that I surveyed said they sprayed 12 times 

8 per year, raising copper concentrations roughly 12 

9 to 24 parts per million per year. Farmers admitted 

10 to me that they had removed land from organic tomato 

11 production after three years. Clearly, this is 

12 not a sustainable practice but these operations 

13 exist under the organic label and I have been to 

14 them.

15 Copper, like other heavy metals, binds 

16 to organic materials and to clay and mineral 

17 surfaces in the soil where it denatures proteins 

18 and is shown to suppress nitrogen fixation and 

19 reduce earthworm counts. As an immobile heavy 

20 metal, copper accumulation is irreversible. So, 

21 limitations on copper use must be in the 

22 regulations.
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1 In trying to reign in the copper 

2 abusers, we need to be careful that we don't 

3 hamstring the farmers who are using copper 

4 responsibly with excessive regulations. However, 

5 we feel that annotations for specific uses and 

6 rates should be proposed. Most importantly, 

7 certifying agents in the NOP must enforce the 

8 diversity requirements of OFPA, when considering 

9 whether or not to certify a farm in the first place 

10 to prevent the excessive need for copper sprays in 

11 tomato monocultures.

12 Critics rightly cite the use of 

13 synthetic copper in organic farming is being more 

14 environmentally problematic than some other 

15 synthetic fungicides that are not allowed in 

16 organic farming. In the search for alternatives, 

17 please consider adding phosphorous acid to the 

18 National List, a much safer and environmentally 

19 friendly option for plant disease control, 

20 particularly effective against water mold diseases 

21 such as a late blight of tomato and potato, diseases 

22 for which I have witnessed the overuse of copper 
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1 for disease control.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you Linley. 

3 Questions? Zea.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: You are aware that 

5 we have a petition process to petition phosphorous 

6 acid or to petition an annotation change for copper 

7 that could be submitted anytime?

8 MS. DIXON: Yes, I will do that. Thank 

9 you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other questions? 

11 Okay, thank you very much Linley.

12 The next speaker will be Rudy Amador and 

13 he will be followed by Tina Ellor.

14 Oh, I should -- may I make sure everyone 

15 understands that our next speaker, his first 

16 language is Spanish and he will be presenting in 

17 his native language, as is appropriate. His 

18 presentation on the screen will be in English and 

19 he does have a translator. And therefore, 

20 obviously, there will be a few more minutes' time 

21 allowed in order to accommodate the necessary 

22 translation. Is that right?
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1 MR. AMADOR: Just a clarification. 

2 There are some folks after me that will be speaking 

3 in Spanish.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: It is the person 

5 after you. Okay.

6 MR. AMADOR: Although, I do know there 

7 are some Board members that are Spanish speakers, 

8 I will do mine in English.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, thank you.

10 MR. AMADOR: Because of the importance 

11 of ethylene in pineapples, my comments are 

12 basically going to be just regarding that material.

13 I work with Dole Tropical Products 

14 Latin America, based in San Jose, Costa Rica. We 

15 are the largest grower and exporter of organic 

16 pineapple from Costa Rica, also the largest 

17 marketer of organic pineapples in the U.S. We are 

18 a subsidiary of Dole Food Company, 

19 California-based and in Costa Rica, we operate two 

20 organic farms with about 400 employees in those 

21 farms.

22 We are also proud to say we are pioneers 
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1 in Fair Trade organic pineapples to the U.S. 

2 market.

3 I won't get in too much detail but 

4 ethylene use for flower induction is the most 

5 important agricultural practice for the production 

6 of organic pineapples and that allows us to plant 

7 harvests in every other agricultural practice 

8 after flower induction. Without it, we would have 

9 severe pest issues. We would have much lower 

10 yields and quality issues.

11 In the Codex process, Codex application 

12 Costa Rica and the UE together basically gave 

13 several reasons I just selected this one. And they 

14 are basically saying that without ethylene, there 

15 cannot be a consistent export business for 

16 pineapples in being able to plan not only 

17 production but also the use of labor throughout the 

18 year, with all the economic impacts of that.

19 I did bring just a few pictures. This 

20 is what we are talking about, this product is 

21 applied normally with a boom spreader and it is 

22 applied at nighttime to avoid -- it is a volatile 
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1 product so you want to do it at nighttime when it 

2 is more effective. It is applied with water and 

3 activated carbon. This is standard practice.

4 After application, about six or seven 

5 weeks, you are going to see a bud in the plant and 

6 22 to 24 weeks after application you are eventually 

7 going to have a nice looking organic fruit.

8 There are alternatives which none are 

9 really good environmental alternatives or economic 

10 alternative. I will not get into that because I 

11 have got my yellow light here.

12 The regulatory situation is pretty 

13 clear. It is allowed in Costa Rica, Canada. 

14 Codex is an interesting case because as early as 

15 2012 it has been listed and reviewed. The U.S. 

16 delegation, the Codex committee voted to include 

17 ethylene. And in the United States, obviously, it 

18 is allowed at the present time.

19 This is very important to us. The 

20 societal impact of removing ethylene would mean 

21 most likely conversion from organic to 

22 conventional or for the farmers to get out of 
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1 business. In the case of Dole, there is going to 

2 be 400 jobs lost. That is 1600 people directly for 

3 a family four. For the U.S. consumer, there will 

4 be no organic pineapple purchasing options for 

5 retailers/processors, a loss of an emerging 

6 markets, international trade issues, conflicts 

7 regarding trade. And every important also, 

8 lately, the organic pineapples that I mentioned, 

9 they are receiving or the farmers are receiving a 

10 fair trade social premium that is managing that 

11 product, for example, as shown there for adult 

12 education. All those are in danger.

13 And I just wanted to end that if those 

14 technical arguments don't convince you, these are 

15 some of the nicest flowers in agriculture. And 

16 actually, you wouldn't have your beautiful autumn 

17 leaves here in Vermont if it wasn't because of 

18 ethylene.

19 So anyway, thank you for your attention 

20 and for the opportunity. And thank you for 

21 bringing us to Vermont, Michelle.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Rudy. 
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1 Questions, comments? Okay, thank you very much.

2 Our next speaker is Tina Ellor and she 

3 will be followed by Johanna Mirenda.

4 MS. ELLOR: Good afternoon. I can't 

5 ever get up here without thanking you guys for what 

6 you do. I have some small idea but I think the 

7 workload has grown, it seems, exponentially since 

8 I sat on that side of the table.

9 My promise to you in my written comments 

10 that if you had no questions for me, I would give 

11 up the mike but there is one more material that came 

12 up that I would like to address and that is the 

13 cheese wax for the outdoor growers.

14 I think this is not on their radar. I 

15 did a quick email while I was sitting here and asked 

16 them do you need this, the people that I know, and 

17 they said yes, please. And I know there is a 

18 petition for soy wax. So, if we could keep cheese 

19 wax on until the soy goes through the python, as 

20 Jim so eloquently put it, I think it would be 

21 greatly appreciated.

22 I know I visit with a lot of -- because 
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1 I am a mycologist, I go on wild mushroom forays. 

2 I visit with a lot of small mycology clubs and there 

3 is a lot of people out there using cheese wax in 

4 their very small organic outdoor log operations.

5 And the other thing I just wanted to 

6 bring up quickly is that words do matter. So, I 

7 know from the past, sitting in many of these 

8 meetings, that I wouldn't like to see the word 

9 soilless system get into the regulation in any way 

10 because we were given a lot of trouble by the 

11 non-plant life part of the livestock definition, 

12 which would have put mushrooms into livestock, 

13 which doesn't really make any sense. So, words do 

14 matter.

15 So, if you have no questions, I will 

16 relinquish the mike.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

18 Questions for Tina? Okay, thank you.

19 The next speaker is Johanna Mirenda 

20 from OMRI.

21 MS. MIRENDA: Hi, the Board, thank you 

22 for having us. My name is Johanna Mirenda. I am 
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1 the Technical Director of OMRI, the Organic 

2 Materials Review Institute. My comment today 

3 focuses on the enforceability of the proposed 

4 annotation for the listings of inert ingredients 

5 at 205.601(m) for use in crop pesticides and 

6 205.603(e) for use in livestock external 

7 pesticides.

8 I will also provide a brief technical 

9 comparison of the proposed annotation to the 

10 current regulations and approved products.

11 In regards to enforceability, please 

12 ensure that the specific language in the proposed 

13 annotation accurately reflects the intent of the 

14 subcommittees so that the requirements can be 

15 accurately and consistently implemented if the 

16 proposal is codified in the regulations. Part 1 

17 of the proposed annotation does not make a 

18 distinction between the substances eligibility as 

19 an active or inert ingredient and an EPA 25(b) 

20 exempt product. As written, the proposed 

21 annotation would allow any substance that is 

22 eligible for use in a 25(b) exempt product, 
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1 including the actives.

2 Part 2 of the proposed annotation does 

3 not make a distinction among the functional classes 

4 that substances are grouped by on the EPA safer 

5 chemical ingredient list. As written, the 

6 proposed annotation would allow any substance in 

7 any of the functional classes, regardless of the 

8 actual inert function that it exhibits in an 

9 organic approved pesticide.

10 If our understanding of these parts of 

11 the proposed annotation are not in alignment with 

12 the intent of the subcommittees, please provide 

13 clarification in the Board's final recommendation.

14 And now please refer to your handout for 

15 a technical comparison of the proposed annotation 

16 with current regulations and approved products. 

17 In 2011, OMRI was asked by the NOP to provide a list 

18 of inert ingredients. And OMRI listed pesticides 

19 for use by the Inerts Working Group. We provided 

20 a non-confidential list of inerts included in OMRI 

21 listed products without associating them with any 

22 specific products. We have used this same data to 
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1 assist how OMRI listed products might be affected 

2 by the proposed annotation, which we feel is a good 

3 indicator of the implications for the organic 

4 pesticide industry at large. Of the approximately 

5 177 synthetic inert ingredients used by OMRI listed 

6 suppliers at the time, about 130 would remain 

7 allowed under the proposed annotation. 

8 Approximately 47 inert ingredients in use at the 

9 time are synthetic do not appear on the SCIL or 

10 25(b) lists and would be prohibited under the 

11 proposed annotation.

12 OMRI has provided these figures to the 

13 Board to assist in your review of the implications 

14 of the proposed annotation. However, we do not 

15 take a position for or against the proposal. Thank 

16 you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Johanna. 

18 Questions? Yes.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: This is very 

20 confusion. You are assuming that SCIL is not 

21 reviewing anymore products when you give this data? 

22 The whole idea of the program with SCIL is for them 
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1 to review all these products. So, saying they 

2 would be prohibited is counterproductive.

3 MS. MIRENDA: Sorry. I guess based on 

4 the products on this, the current substances in the 

5 SCIL list.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, then I am very 

7 encouraged that we would only have to review 47 new 

8 substances because that is not what our information 

9 says. But okay.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other questions or 

11 comments for Johanna? Emily, did you want to add 

12 anything? No? Okay. Thank you very much, 

13 Johanna.

14 The next speaker is Mark Feduke and the 

15 following person would be Olman Briceno.

16 MR. FEDUKE: Good afternoon. It is 

17 the latter part of the day, so I will try to bring 

18 a little bit of energy. Good afternoon to 

19 everyone. My name is Mark Feduke. I am the 

20 Director of Operations at VLM Foods. We are an 

21 importer distributor and I want to thank the NOSB 

22 for providing me with the opportunity to speak with 
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1 you folks and also for holding this in Stowe, as 

2 it was a very pleasant drive from our office, a 

3 little further north in Montreal.

4 So, I would like to begin by saying that 

5 as an importer, our foreign food safety 

6 capacity-building measures have been recognized by 

7 the World Bank as being a leading progressive 

8 strategy, given the growing consensus that food 

9 safety is a critical driver of productivity in the 

10 developing world and also for transitioning 

11 economies. Against that backdrop, we are 

12 extremely proud of the work that our partners in 

13 Costa Rica are doing with respect to organic 

14 pineapple production, a model that does not see 

15 growers receiving a fair price for a product or 

16 receiving a premium for organic product and that 

17 product is then not sent north to be advanced wildly 

18 in value in the global north but is, instead, 

19 processed in Costa Rica with benefits accruing to 

20 the local populous in Costa Rica.

21 The motion to remove ethylene gas as an 

22 approved flowering agent in the production of 
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1 organic pineapple doesn't make any specific 

2 requirements or case for removing it this time in 

3 the motion itself but the motion does state that 

4 the use of ethylene gas has helped grow the organic 

5 pineapple industry and allowed producers to 

6 compete globally, which, in my humble opinion, I 

7 think is in our collective best interest.

8 In our discussions with our partners in 

9 Costa Rica, farmers and processors, we are not 

10 aware of a viable alternative at this time. I 

11 fully appreciate there are stakeholders who will 

12 make comments otherwise and I respect their input. 

13 However, looking at some of the comments that have 

14 been given, there have been suggestions of using 

15 alternatives which presently are not even approved 

16 for organic production or there is suggestions of 

17 using a water-based cold stress method, which I am

18 sure works wonderfully in other areas, however, at 

19 present, it would not be economically viable in 

20 Costa Rica, let alone additional concerns that we 

21 have with yet an additional level of water being 

22 applied, given that we are still waiting to find 
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1 out what the final microbial water testing 

2 requirements are going to be under the fresh 

3 produce rules of FSMA, which I know that we haven't 

4 really discussed at all today because that is 

5 around the horizon.

6 I understand that a great deal of work 

7 has been done in the FSMA space in alignment with 

8 USDA, however, all these regulations are subject 

9 to a much higher law, the law of unintended 

10 consequences. As FDA notes, FSMA presents the 

11 most sweeping update to American food legislative 

12 to have been enacted over the past 70 years. And 

13 if anyone in this room thinks they won't be touched 

14 by FSMA, they certainly will.

15 Now, broadly speaking, we support FSMA. 

16 We think it ought to provide an opportunity to level 

17 the playing field but, having said that, there are 

18 great concerns that have yet to be realized what 

19 the true costs will be as we move forward.

20 If ethylene gas is to be removed as an 

21 approved input at this time, it will promote less, 

22 rather than more, organic production in Costa Rica. 
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1 It will hurt farmers, large and small, and diminish 

2 the overall magnitude of organic products in the 

3 marketplace. And my time is up. Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

5 much, Mark. Are there any questions, comments 

6 from the Board?

7 We have received, as you know, a large 

8 amount of written material on this topic as well, 

9 to which your comments are added. Great. Thank 

10 you very much.

11 MR. FEDUKE: Thank you for your time.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

13 Olman Briceno and he will be followed by Christian 

14 Herrera.

15 MR. BRICENO: Good afternoon. A 

16 former colleague of mine used to say that if you 

17 are not in the table, you are probably ending up 

18 in the menu. So, I am very thankful for everybody 

19 to have us Costa Ricans onboard today and I 

20 appreciate really the opportunity to come here with 

21 a lot of stakeholders of organic production of 

22 pineapple, together with me today.
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1 As I said, I am Olman Briceno. I am 

2 Vice President of the Chamber of Exporters of Costa 

3 Rica and I am sitting in that table, representing 

4 small and medium enterprises in rural areas. 

5 So, it is very simple as this. The 

6 elimination of ethylene in organic pineapple 

7 production compromises Costa Rica's policy led by 

8 the Ministry of Agriculture, which seeks to 

9 increase organic production in the country. It is 

10 important also to highlight that organic pineapple 

11 is grown by many small holders in regions of the 

12 country with important challenges regarding 

13 sustainable development goals.

14 The proposed elimination of ethylene is 

15 a hard stop to the sustainable livelihoods of all 

16 farmers engaged in organic agriculture. With 

17 their elimination, we would also erase a unique 

18 value-added proposition posted organic growers 

19 that also have enticed, together with the organic 

20 production, efforts that are now in my country key 

21 lime markets, for example, the first carbon neutral 

22 organic pineapple farm; the first industrial 
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1 facility organic that is carbon neutral led by my 

2 wife, which I am very proud of; also the first 

3 commercial initiatives that are being carried out; 

4 and also, we have various listings of comparatives 

5 that are highly involved in the production of 

6 organic pineapple, this, under gender equality 

7 opportunity. 

8 The government has also compromised a 

9 lot of financial support, among other many things 

10 that I can mention.

11 So, I would like to invite you over to 

12 Costa Rica to look at this. And we are very 

13 optimistic as Costa Ricans and very proactive.

14 I think that this proposal to eliminate 

15 ethylene has also fostered a small organic 

16 pineapple farmers to engage and advance on the 

17 agenda on issues and expectations related to 

18 policy. So, many of the small farmers now are 

19 encouraged to establish a new chamber of producers 

20 of organic pineapple, which has been the result of 

21 all these discussions inside the country.

22 So, I am very thankful for everybody in 
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1 here and I am very thankful for the members of the 

2 Board that are going to continue to support the 

3 organic production of pineapple in my country. 

4 Thank you very much. Any questions?

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you Olman. 

6 Are there any questions? Harold has a question. 

7 Harold.

8 MEMBER AUSTIN: Buenas tardes, Olman.

9 MR. BRICENO: Hello.

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you for coming up 

11 and bringing your testimony for all of us to hear.

12 MR. BRICENO: You're welcome.

13 MEMBER AUSTIN: My question is on our 

14 first public comment period, we heard such few 

15 comments coming in from the producers themselves. 

16 Is there value, I guess -- two questions. Is there 

17 value to us having two public comment periods for 

18 testimonies to be heard by the Board and the public. 

19 And second, what happened that you guys did not get 

20 the message during the first public comment period?

21 MR. BRICENO: Well, it is a good thing. 

22 I believe that I cannot talk about the past why we 
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1 were not there but absolutely we are here. And I 

2 think that arguments that we are giving, as I 

3 mentioned to you, I am very thankful for the 

4 opportunity to be here. 

5 Right now, I think it is a good 

6 opportunity to put all the messages across and all 

7 of the objective arguments and elements for a 

8 comprehensive assessment of this decision to get 

9 ethylene out of organic pineapple production.

10 So, talking about the past, I prefer 

11 not to mention why we were not there, initially, 

12 but we are here. So, any questions on the 

13 technical side, we have a group of engineers, 

14 agronomical people with a lot of expertise and 

15 small growers that can go into the details of why 

16 ethylene is so important to maintain the 

17 livelihoods of so many people in our country.

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you.

19 MR. BRICENO: You're welcome.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other 

21 questions? Yes, Calvin.

22 MEMBER WALKER: I like that quote. My 
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1 boss, always using that quote.

2 My question is, without ethylene gas 

3 what percent of the U.S. market would be impacted?

4 MR. BRICENO: I would refer that 

5 question to Mr. Christian Herrera. The quality 

6 measure have more quantitative data.

7 But what I am telling you is that I 

8 engage on a regular basis with the small producers 

9 and what they have said, and you will hear it from 

10 them today, probably I will be translating for 

11 them, is that they would be out of business. All 

12 right? And they will probably not go to 

13 conventional pineapple because they are in organic 

14 production. So, there is a big problem for them 

15 with this ethylene issue.

16 All right, thank you very much, Mr. 

17 Walker, for your comment.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We have a question 

19 from Tom.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Are you aware of any 

21 small producers who are not utilizing ethylene at 

22 this time?
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1 MR. BRICENO: No, sir. All the small 

2 producers, everybody that works with pineapple 

3 organic is using ethylene at this moment.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Gracias.

5 MR. BRICENO. Thank you for all your 

6 questions. I have been well -- three questions. 

7 That is very good. Thank you.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. The 

9 next presenter is Christian Herrera and to followed 

10 by Nestor Ramirez.

11 MR. HERRERA: Good afternoon to you all 

12 members of the Board. My name is Christian Herrera 

13 and I am here honorably representing 21 grower 

14 cooperative that just started at the beginning of 

15 the year.

16 I am the Vice President of the Pineapple 

17 Growers Chamber in Costa Rica, gladly, after being 

18 the President for the last two years, and being on 

19 the Board for eight years.

20 I am trying to get as brief as I can 

21 because three minutes is really, really torturing 

22 me since there is so much to say.
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1 I want to thank Michelle for choosing 

2 such as a lovely place as this magical place. We 

3 normally get to the conference in Miami and here 

4 is a much, much beautiful place.

5 Let's speak about my co-op. The 

6 background is in Costa Rica for the last 15 years 

7 has become the first exporter of fresh fruit in the 

8 world, so far, with more than 95,000 acres of 

9 conventional production. Your questions, sir, is 

10 that our figures now that we are not reaching the 

11 2,000 acres of organic pineapple among 60 growers. 

12 The colleague from Dole said they are the biggest 

13 but we are not that far away from them, from their 

14 volume. We are improving.

15 After 15 years and all this experience 

16 for the last 15 years, we have become the best 

17 technology in the world and we are supplying our 

18 agronomies to worldwide in Philippines, Brazil, 

19 and all Latin America and the rest of the African 

20 countries.

21 We run the leadership in research, 

22 since we have a lot of areas, a lot of acres to take 
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1 care of and we started our first organic operation 

2 and started in the year 2001 and it was one of the 

3 agronomics who started that project.

4 For the last 14 years, I have been a 

5 conventional expertise but now all my organic 

6 colleagues are just washing my brain out because 

7 organics is in the tropics. When it rains more 

8 than 300 inches a year is really, really, really 

9 tough.

10 The co-op was established because we 

11 found a stable market with a fixed price. So, we 

12 started we know whom to sell, at what price, and 

13 the profit that we are going to get, if we do good 

14 in the field.

15 The co-op was born. You know 21 

16 growers with more than 70 years of expertise in 

17 organics. We just joined all of the forces 

18 together to start this production. Our target is 

19 to reach a thousand acres by the end of 2016.

20 The business plan is that first the 

21 market demands organic production more and more at 

22 a reasonable price. If I stay taking care of just 
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1 one pineapple, I can do it organically, but it is 

2 going to cost 12 months of my time and nobody will 

3 buy it. So, we need to be profitable business 

4 within the technology available so far.

5 Pricing is a matter in organic market 

6 you already know that it is very sensitive. When 

7 the organic prices just go up, nobody will buy that 

8 and then the fruit will stay on the shelves. 

9 And it is a matter of where we are. We 

10 are located in the north region of Costa Rica. 

11 And then we will be around. So, for 

12 anyone who has more questions, okay.

13 And the ethylene thing is, that is a 

14 picture of how we spray it. Small growers have the 

15 best technology, the same as the big international 

16 companies. So, we have the technology of using 

17 ethylene in a safe way, using the water and the 

18 limestone.

19 Thank you very much. And any question? 

20 I know that three minutes wouldn't make it.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

22 much. We have received a large number of these 
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1 comments already in writing and I know we have two 

2 sets of questions. 

3 Tom, do you want to start? And then 

4 Harold.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Are you aware of any 

6 small producers in organic that are not using 

7 ethylene?

8 MR. HERRERA: Completely being the 

9 President of the Board and representing my 

10 industry, there is no grower in Costa Rica using 

11 nothing else but ethylene gas because it is cheap 

12 expensive -- very cheap, very accessible to the 

13 growers and the technology is already there.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Harold.

15 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you. You kind 

16 of answered a little bit of what I wanted to say. 

17 In this case, size doesn't really matter. All of 

18 the pineapple producers are using this material. 

19 Correct?

20 MR. HERRERA: Yes, sir, in Costa Rica, 

21 they are. 

22 MEMBER AUSTIN: And even the smaller 
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1 growers have access to the equipment for 

2 application purposes.

3 MR. HERRERA: The spring system is that 

4 we use the gas mixed with kind of a limestone or 

5 active charcoal as a mechanical transport agent. 

6 And it is a drench application. So, so far, we need 

7 to put more than 500 gallons an acre per 

8 application. So, it uses a lot of water for being 

9 such an extensive crop. So, considering that, 

10 even the spray, regardless of how small the 

11 sprinklers are or maybe 300 gallons, the small 

12 tanks, they have the system, which is a homemade 

13 done just to mix the gas with the active charcoal 

14 or the limestone so there is going to be like an 

15 absorbing agent to be sprayed and made the effect. 

16 Why we need a trigger with the ethylene 

17 is to adjust to the varying shape of growth and they 

18 just trigger the flowering, which is something that 

19 really happens in nature. But we need to spray all 

20 the areas in the same time just to achieve a visible 

21 harvest rate. We need to make one container take 

22 12,000 fruits of organic pineapple and then we have 
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1 to spray it on the same time so the harvest will 

2 come at the same time. And that is what make it 

3 physical.

4 Naturally, if you leave the crop for 

5 three years, it might flower but randomly. Then 

6 the grower should be as many like 40 years ago, they 

7 went into the field just pitching while the fruit 

8 is ready and that is not possible. And they market 

9 the fruit all year round and is one of the biggest 

10 advantages why Costa Rica is the leader because we 

11 have fruit all the year round.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. I have 

13 got a lot of hands up here. We are running about 

14 20 minutes behind, just so you know. So, make your 

15 questions short.

16 Harold, you have a follow-up, then I 

17 have Jennifer, then I have Nick. 

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay, my follow-up is 

19 with the full application of the material and not 

20 having to go in periodically, what impact does that 

21 have on worker health, environmental impact, and 

22 biological controls within your field?
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1 MR. HERRERA: Okay, labor safety, 

2 very, very important question. The spraying booms 

3 are operated by one operator in the tractor and the 

4 sprayer is just spraying the back with the tank. 

5 So, there is no direct exposure or exposition of 

6 the gas within the employees. The gas must remain 

7 there for many more or less like ten minutes in the 

8 field just to make the trigger of the flowering. 

9 So, after 15 minutes, there are no gases in there. 

10 I can even be in the fields I come and remember what 

11 the smell of the ethylene missed with the 

12 limestone.

13 So, in labor safety we have been 

14 audited, with our years in Costa Rica, we have all 

15 the European and the American customers auditing 

16 us every year. So, we have comply with labor 

17 safety first and then the rest of the environment.

18 As far as we know, ethylene is not the 

19 carbon footprint agent and is not also later 

20 deploying so I think we are working with such an 

21 innocuous particle. Inequity of the fruit is not 

22 a matter of discussion. There is no way the 
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1 ethylene we apply will show up in the residue in 

2 the fruit and the consumers. It just is the same 

3 thing.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jennifer.

5 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you. I just 

6 wanted to understand what you are saying when you 

7 say that all of the farmers in Costa Rica are using 

8 ethylene, are you talking all of the farmers that 

9 are in your cooperative or are you talking about 

10 all of the farmer in the country?

11 MR. HERRERA: One hundred percent of 

12 the growers in Costa Rica, which is 1250 growers 

13 actively exporting to the U.S. are using ethylene. 

14 I love figures. I love data.

15 MEMBER TAYLOR: Great.

16 MR. HERRERA: I apologize.

17 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you.

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: Is there anything 

19 that you see in the future that could lead to an 

20 alternative to ethylene? And I will just make an 

21 example, which may not be appropriate, but is there 

22 any research being done into alternative breeding 
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1 that might be of value or any other alternative 

2 methods? Is there anything in the works that is 

3 being explored as an alternative?

4 MR. HERRERA: Now, because of this 

5 point that the ethylene is someone asked to be 

6 banned is the first time that we ever needed to 

7 search for something else. Because for the last 

8 15 years, it is the first and the biggest threat 

9 and that is why we have a very big Costa Rican 

10 community here because we thought that was 

11 completely innocuous and it is. And it is 

12 technically proven.

13 So, nobody has done research to do some 

14 other choices. Research is expensive and so far, 

15 the businesses are tight. Well, maybe the growers 

16 and the co-op, we have a small budget to implement 

17 and improve the agricultural practices being 

18 applied in the field but not accurate research.

19 So, so far, there is no option and why 

20 should we do more research if the molecule can be 

21 used for the rest of the years.

22 We have written all the comments there 
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1 and there is a proposal for using smoke. So, you 

2 should be burning something. That is against all 

3 the C neutral movement and we don't want to use fire 

4 anymore.

5 The other thing is, just to use water. 

6 Just to make a natural plant to be flowered by cold 

7 water, you need almost six gallons of freezing 

8 water just to make the trigger and that will mean 

9 a lot of dollars per hectare in a four time period. 

10 So, we are applying more water when we are just 

11 almost flooding in Costa Rica, so it is completely 

12 contradicting.

13 We have to by the carbon footprint, we 

14 need to measure how many energy we need to reinvest 

15 in our crops. Just cooling that water when we are 

16 all year round about the 90 degrees, you know it 

17 is nonsense.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, one last 

19 question. Tracy.

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: This is as much a 

21 statement as it is a question. I wanted to thank 

22 you for taking the time and energy to come here. 
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1 It is an important reminder to those of us on the 

2 Board as we are making these decisions that there 

3 is real people and real companies and families 

4 impacted by these decisions.

5 I guess my question is a little similar 

6 to what was asked earlier by Harold about the sunset 

7 process. There was two meetings here to provide 

8 commentary. I guess my thought was how dangerous 

9 it might have been had there only been one comment 

10 period, as there was under the old process, where 

11 we might not have received these comments. And 

12 having a little bit extra time to come back kind 

13 of the second go-around where yes, we really mean 

14 it, we are thinking about it, was that helpful to 

15 you and your organization?

16 MR. HERRERA: Well, we are here in the 

17 second review is because we are farmers and we are 

18 in the middle of our crops. So, we are not very 

19 political. You know we are in the crops.

20 So I think yes, we have one of the 

21 government telling them hey, why they let this to 

22 happen. They should be contacted with the USDA and 
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1 we need to improve the communication within the 

2 USDA and our national authorities because we rely 

3 on them now. We are here and we can get direct as 

4 you want. We are going to be here until Thursday. 

5 So, any questions, further, for more information, 

6 you know I love to talk and our growers are just 

7 wanting and willing to be here in front just 

8 exposing. Because you know I am the manager of a 

9 co-op but we have some growers here by themselves. 

10 So you want to hear their histories. Okay, thank 

11 you.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

13 Gracias.

14 The next speaker is Nestor Ramirez and 

15 he will be followed by Maykool Lopez.

16 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

17 spoken.)

18 INTERPRETER: Good afternoon. Thank 

19 you for bringing me over to Vermont.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

21 spoken.)

22 INTERPRETER: He studied agriculture 
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1 from '92 to '95 from a very humble housing.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

3 spoken.)

4 INTERPRETER: His studies were in 

5 sustainable agriculture. That is the main area of 

6 his emphasis during his studies.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

8 spoken.)

9 INTERPRETER: In 2005, he started a 40 

10 hectare plantation of his own.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

12 spoken.)

13 INTERPRETER: He started with five 

14 hectares.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

16 spoken.)

17 INTERPRETER: And he now has, after 

18 hard work, 40 hectares of organic pineapple.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

20 spoken.)

21 INTERPRETER: This experience has 

22 helped him to be an advisor in other countries 
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1 outside of Costa Rica in organic plantations.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

3 spoken.)

4 INTERPRETER: That is his farm in Costa 

5 Rica. He is now a member of the cooperative that

6 Christian is heading.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

8 spoken.)

9 INTERPRETER: He is just 15 kilometers 

10 away from Nicaragua, so we are very close to it.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

12 spoken.)

13 INTERPRETER: The use a spray boom to 

14 make the applications of the crop with ethylene.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

16 spoken.)

17 INTERPRETER: He is explaining how 

18 that tank is being used to transport all the 

19 ethylene that is used in the field.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

21 spoken.)

22 INTERPRETER: Okay, he is transporting 
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1 it in a very secured manner and has a certain type 

2 of valves that secure that it is not going to have 

3 any leak or any dangerous situation out of the use 

4 of ethylene in the field.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

6 spoken.)

7 INTERPRETER: After seven or eight 

8 months of the pineapple being planted, they will 

9 have the first application of ethylene in the 

10 fields.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

12 spoken.)

13 INTERPRETER: That is a fruit of 55 

14 days post-application of the ethylene.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

16 spoken.)

17 INTERPRETER: After these days, they 

18 have to combat and prevent the application of any 

19 pest and diseases. So, it is very complicated.

20 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

21 spoken.)

22 INTERPRETER: That is 80 days after the 
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1 application of ethylene.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

3 spoken.)

4 INTERPRETER: That is 100 days, 110 

5 days after application.

6 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

7 spoken.)

8 INTERPRETER: And when it is ready 

9 almost to harvest, they have to review the internal 

10 condition of the fruits in a random way.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

12 spoken.)

13 INTERPRETER: This is so important for 

14 what he is going to be talking about very soon.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

16 spoken.)

17 INTERPRETER: These are fruits that 

18 have been harvested with a bad application of 

19 ethylene. You see the different colors, right?

20 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

21 spoken.)

22 INTERPRETER: And you see that are some 
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1 are more ripe than the others, the ones that are 

2 in the bottom.

3 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

4 spoken.)

5 INTERPRETER: That is the internal 

6 condition that is different.

7 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

8 spoken.)

9 INTERPRETER: And you see the bad 

10 application of ethylene has an impact in the 

11 quality of the fruit. The ones on the left have 

12 been more ripened than the others on the ripe.

13 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

14 spoken.)

15 INTERPRETER: And this would happen if 

16 we don't use ethylene in a correct way. It will 

17 be very randomly the whole plantation will behave 

18 and how it will ripen.

19 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

20 spoken.)

21 INTERPRETER: This is just how they 

22 harvest the organic pineapple in the fields.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

2 spoken.)

3 INTERPRETER: The fruit is green on the

4 outside. This is how we harvest it.

5 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

6 spoken.)

7 INTERPRETER: With this color, green 

8 color, it would look green on the outside but when 

9 you go and look at the flesh inside, it will be very 

10 nice for the consumer.

11 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

12 spoken.)

13 INTERPRETER: When he is hearing that 

14 people are proposing the use of cold water for the 

15 flowering of the pineapple, we have a similar 

16 conditions that are present naturally in Costa Rica 

17 in December, in the north of Costa Rica, where it 

18 is quite cold. We are talking cold, 18, 19 degrees 

19 that is how cold it gets in Costa Rica. It is not 

20 that fine, you know. But then we have a very 

21 awkward and random way of ripening the fruit in 

22 natural conditions.
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: Gracias.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Gracias. Thank 

3 you. We do have a question for you. Tom.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Is the ethylene 

5 always applied via the boom truck equipment that 

6 was shown earlier?

7 INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, I didn't hear 

8 your question. 

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Is the ethylene gas 

10 always applied via that boom truck?

11 INTERPRETER: (Foreign language 

12 spoken.)

13 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

14 spoken.)

15 INTERPRETER: The only way to apply 

16 ethylene in Costa Rica in the fields is with the 

17 spray boom.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: And is that equipment 

19 owned by the cooperative and shared amongst the 

20 farmers?

21 INTERPRETER: (Foreign language 

22 spoken.)
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1 MR. RAMIREZ: (Foreign language 

2 spoken.)

3 INTERPRETER: Normally, the person 

4 that owns the land and the plantation owns the spray 

5 boom but if he is too small, what he will do is rent 

6 it from the person that has it and it will just pay 

7 for the use of that service.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other questions, 

10 comments? Thank you very much. Muchas gracias.

11 INTERPRETER: Okay, thank you.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

13 Maykool Lopez, to be followed by Cecilio Barrantes 

14 Quesada.

15 MR. LOPEZ: Hi. Good afternoon. 

16 Thank you very much for giving us the opportunity 

17 to talk to you. My name is Maykool Lopez. I am 

18 the Trade Commissioner of Costa Rica, based in New 

19 York. I represent PROCOMER, the government agency 

20 responsible for promoting Costa Rican products in 

21 international markets.

22 I definitely would like to thank the 
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1 National Organic Standards Board for giving us this 

2 opportunity here.

3 I am going to comment about the impact 

4 of the conventional and organic pineapple activity 

5 as an economic and social engine in Costa Rica, 

6 therefore the effect on the business community, 

7 employment and on the people.

8 Costa Rica has thickets of genuine 

9 commitment on sustainable production and 

10 well-intended economic sectors like pineapple 

11 growers, and indeed, the organic pineapple 

12 growers. We see this will be seen as an important 

13 contributor to the export diversification policy 

14 and the development of the country. A change in 

15 the worldwide revelations like the use of ethylene 

16 in organic pineapple flowering might affect 

17 hundreds of people and a good amount of the small 

18 and medium-sized producers that work to 

19 differentiate its product and complied with market 

20 requirements to meet the most strict secure safety 

21 and health standards.

22 We are talking about an organized 
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1 international industry that has been able to 

2 provide commercial scale and certified shipments 

3 to consumers to the world. This requires the 

4 implementation of a complete business model of 

5 processes, programming, and logistics, as you just 

6 saw. This model certainly has been implemented 

7 not only by large international organizations but 

8 also by small and medium-sized companies that have 

9 worked with international NGOs, foreign 

10 governments and enthusiasts to support the Costa 

11 Rican economy, actually to support the Costa Rican 

12 talent and very well educated talent.

13 Although Costa Rica has been positioned 

14 as number one producer and exporter of conventional 

15 pineapple to the world, it is actually the second 

16 most important product being exported from Costa 

17 Rica. The pineapple has reported 127 exporting 

18 companies; 63 percent of them are small and 

19 medium-sized enterprises that employ more than 

20 200,000 employees in 2014. That actually this 

21 group of people provides 89 percent of the 

22 conventional pineapple to the U.S. -- to the 
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1 pineapple that is being imported by the U.S.

2 Committed with the international 

3 trends, the industry has worked hard to create its 

4 part to the organic community. Our vision is to 

5 keep promoting this community to international 

6 trade shows to support our farmers. Organic 

7 pineapple represents 16.4 percent of the organic 

8 production of the country and it is now it takes 

9 a real commercial effort to the world.

10 This is the main product in the Costa 

11 Rican organic production and these growers have 

12 1352 acres of cultivated and certified organic 

13 pineapple. 

14 Costa Rica has a track record of working 

15 hard to position itself an important player in the 

16 most complex and world purpose market. I really 

17 would like to invite you to help us protect an 

18 economic engine and actually a country that 

19 protects the world.

20 Thank you very much.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

22 for your comments. Are there questions for 
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1 Maykool? Questions? Thank you. It was very 

2 interesting comments and much appreciated.

3 The next presenter Cecilio Antonio 

4 Barrantes Quesada. What a name! I tell you we 

5 don't have those names in Vermont like that.

6 MR. BARRANTES: Hello. My name is 

7 Cecilio Barrantes. Thank you very much for having 

8 me.

9 Well, in order to produce organic 

10 pineapples for the market, it is very important to 

11 use the ethylene, used basically used to further 

12 ripen the fruits. Having said that, eradicating 

13 this natural compound would have a huge negative 

14 impact in the agricultural sector. One of these 

15 terrible consequences will be the risk of over 60 

16 employees losing their jobs only in our company and 

17 a very disadvantaged someone having the difficulty 

18 to find a job that can sustain their families.

19 The investment of thousands of dollars 

20 into this practice will catastrophic. The 

21 commitment with the banks will be also an issue and 

22 the end of our years in hard work will be all gone. 
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1 Just know that the tendency within the next years 

2 will be eating and having a nontoxic diet in all 

3 of our homes. Just think about our next 

4 generations.

5 Decreasing the probabilities of 

6 suffering a deadly disease and boosting the quality 

7 of life, we are all here for a good intentions. So 

8 my question is, do you want to have a better 

9 lifestyle feeding your families with 

10 environmentally friendly pineapples, creating a 

11 new culture of solidarity for our planet and 

12 teaching the consumer that going to the supermarket 

13 and buying your organic groceries is a mutual 

14 interaction that is not only of great benefit, but 

15 it is also contributing to a better change for our 

16 society.

17 Last but not least, without the 

18 ethylene, the production of thousands of farmers 

19 from Costa Rica having a big responsibility with 

20 their clients and also being a part of the incomes 

21 of the country thanks to the great vision of each 

22 and every one of them.
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1 Well, we have heard nothing. We are a 

2 part of this movement, this new horizon pointing 

3 to the future of more longevity but this is all 

4 necessary with the help of the ethylene, being this 

5 natural gas and only for all the people thinking 

6 ahead of our times.

7 Thank you very much.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

9 for your comments. Are there questions? No 

10 questions? Thank you, that was very helpful.

11 MR. BARRANTES: Thank you very much.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

13 Lynn Coody, followed by Dave Zuckerman.

14 MS. COODY: Good evening. My name is 

15 Lynn Coody. I am testifying today on behalf of the 

16 Organic Produce Wholesalers Coalition, which is 

17 comprised of nine businesses that distribute fresh 

18 organic produce across the United States and 

19 internationally. Many of our businesses were 

20 early participants in the organic community and 

21 have continued to play an active role in shaping 

22 its infrastructure. We work to express our 
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1 members' ideas on the issues before the NOSB, as 

2 well as to provide a conduit to the Board for the 

3 voices of certified growers who supply our 

4 businesses. We submitted extensive written 

5 comments. So, I will touch on only a few topics 

6 today that are before the Crops Subcommittee.

7 First, we support the subcommittee's 

8 positions on all petitions they reviewed on 

9 laminarin, brown seaweed extract, lignin 

10 sulfonate, and sulfuric acid.

11 As far as annotations go, for inerts, 

12 OPWC supports the direction proposed by the Crops 

13 Subcommittee of using EPA's Safer Choice Program 

14 to modernize the system for reviewing inerts. We 

15 think this approach balances the requirements to 

16 review individual inerts with a recognition of the 

17 workload already borne by the NOSB and the NOP to 

18 review other types of materials. Our concerns in 

19 any changes made to the inerts review system are: 

20 A) preserving pest control options for the use of 

21 organic farmers; and B) encouraging options for the 

22 reformulation of products and development of new 
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1 products.

2 As far as micronutrients, we support 

3 growers' use of a broader range of methods to 

4 justify micronutrient use. Our written comments 

5 suggest an alternative wording for the annotation 

6 that focuses on verifiable site-specific 

7 information as the basis for the justification.

8 On sunset materials, we submitted 

9 comments from handlers and growers explaining how 

10 and why they used many of the 2017 sunset materials. 

11 OPWC supports relisting of many of these materials, 

12 based on our finding of their continuing necessity 

13 for commercial-scale production of organic fruits 

14 and vegetables. We also find that a few of the 

15 materials listed for crop production are no longer 

16 necessary to our sector. Therefore, we support 

17 de-listing of lignin sulfonate, sodium silicate, 

18 and microcrystalline cheese wax.

19 Although there too many sunset 

20 materials for me to discuss during public comment, 

21 OPWC highlights its support for continued use for 

22 ethylene for pineapple production, due to the many 
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1 responses about these materials that we received 

2 from pineapple growers. We acknowledge the 

3 continued need for this material, as there is no 

4 known alternative to its use and regulation of 

5 flowering time is essential to the success of 

6 production, harvest, and post-harvest practices 

7 used for pineapple imported into the U.S. by our 

8 members.

9 Thank you for the opportunities to 

10 comment today and we thank all of the Board members 

11 for their service to the organic community.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much, 

13 Lynn. Lynn has already, as you know, submitted an 

14 enormous number of written comments. Are there 

15 any other questions from the Board at this time? 

16 Thank you very much.

17 MS. COODY: Thanks.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

19 Dave Zuckerman, organic farmer, state senator, and 

20 maybe he is going to run for lieutenant governor. 

21 Who knows? Dave.

22 MR. ZUCKERMAN: Thank you. And it is 
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1 important running for, potentially, lieutenant 

2 governor of Vermont to know a lot about pineapple 

3 production in Central America. So, thank you. 

4 That is a lot that I have learned today.

5 I come to you as a production farmer of 

6 about 25 acres of vegetables, about a thousand 

7 chickens, and 50 to 100 hogs each year, all 

8 certified organic, with very diverse vegetable 

9 production with respect to running a CSA, which I 

10 am sure you are familiar with. And I bring that 

11 up because when you have that many different crops 

12 and you rotate a lot, you actually can maintain soil 

13 health and you can maintain low pest populations 

14 without using even many of the things that are 

15 allowed for organic production. I spray almost no 

16 pesticides, even, just by using row covers and crop 

17 rotation. And I point that out because I feel the 

18 consumers, in general, believe that organic is more 

19 than today what the organic standards are allowing 

20 and also that we need to continue to educate 

21 consumers about sound production practices that 

22 maintain soil health and, in fact, build soil 
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1 health because that is really the foundation of 

2 organic agriculture.

3 And so I am going to focus just on 

4 bringing consumers to organic, rather than 

5 bringing organic to consumers. And by that I mean 

6 I hope we don't continue to change organic 

7 standards to allow quote cheaper ways to produce 

8 it that actually lower that soil health question 

9 in the long-run. And it is up to you, analyzing each 

10 piece as you go, how you come to your conclusions.

11 For me, organic in food production, 

12 there is science, there is money, and there is soul. 

13 And I hope that as you review what you are 

14 reviewing, you apply as much soul as you do the 

15 final outcome. Because when I look at my hands, 

16 and I don't know if you can see them from where you 

17 are, there is dirt in these fingers and that dirt 

18 has nutrients, that dirt has microorganisms, that 

19 dirt has soul. And when you look at something like 

20 waterless production, I think you are taking the 

21 soul out of agriculture. And if that is the 

22 direction you want to go, then I think you are 
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1 taking the soul out of organic.

2 And that is primary what I wanted to 

3 speak to you today. Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Dave. 

5 Questions for Dave? Thanks very much.

6 MR. ZUCKERMAN: Thank you.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We appreciate your 

8 comments.

9 The next speaker is Orlando Rojas, 

10 followed by Sam Shaffer Joel.

11 INTERPRETER: I am going to translate 

12 for Mr. Orlando. As a matter of fact, he is the 

13 first organic grower that I met in Costa Rica 

14 myself. So, I am very happy to be translating for 

15 him right now.

16 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

17 INTERPRETER: Good afternoon.

18 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

19 INTERPRETER: He is Orlando Rojas from 

20 Costa Rica.

21 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

22 INTERPRETER: He represents a small 
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1 group association. It is not a cooperative that 

2 Christian is heading. It is another small 

3 association of growers.

4 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

5 INTERPRETER: Agronorte is the name of 

6 his association.

7 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

8 INTERPRETER: They are a group of 20 

9 farmers with 50 hectares of organic pineapple.

10 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

11 INTERPRETER: And for the last years, 

12 they have been in business for ten years now and 

13 they have been able to comply with all the stringent 

14 requisites of organic pineapple with hard work and 

15 dedication.

16 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

17 INTERPRETER: What is mentioning right 

18 now is that the efforts that they have done as a 

19 small producers have allowed them to comply with 

20 stringent standards of the U.S. and the EEU for the 

21 expert of organic pineapple.

22 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)
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1 INTERPRETER: With this hard work for 

2 the last ten years, they have been able slowly to 

3 consolidate themselves as a group that can benefit 

4 from the opportunities of the export markets in 

5 countries like the United States and Europe.

6 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

7 INTERPRETER: One of the key and 

8 fundamental issues for him to be able to maintain 

9 a constant volume of product has been the use of 

10 ethylene in the growing of the organic plantations.

11 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

12 INTERPRETER: Ethylene has been 

13 fundamental for the flourishing of the organic 

14 pineapple in the fields.

15 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

16 INTERPRETER: As Nestor was saying, 

17 that he is building upon his comment is that when 

18 he is using ethylene, he is able to have a more 

19 robust and more uniform fruit that complies with 

20 the standards of the international markets.

21 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

22 INTERPRETER: It is important for all 
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1 of you to know that in the last years that they have 

2 been in operation, no one, not one single person 

3 has had any problems with health, safety, or 

4 whatsoever, with the use of ethylene in the fields.

5 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

6 INTERPRETER: Well, it is part of their 

7 motto to be able to maintain a balance between the 

8 production and the protection of the environment. 

9 So, under those standards of this association, they 

10 are mentioning the importance of the use of 

11 ethylene again under these schemes.

12 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

13 INTERPRETER: Today, this firm, and 

14 your friends on the Board decide to take away the 

15 ethylene out the production of organic pineapple, 

16 it would oblate me and all the organic producers 

17 of organic pineapple in Costa Rica --

18 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

19 INTERPRETER: -- to give to somebody 

20 the keys of the farms of all of these people because 

21 this measure make us close our businesses.

22 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)
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1 INTERPRETER: I say this with a lot of 

2 respect. He says this with a lot of respect but 

3 he is pointing out that it is important for all of 

4 you to know that what we have in stake here is the 

5 food on the table of their kids.

6 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

7 INTERPRETER: This is not my only way 

8 of thinking.

9 MR. ROJAS: (Foreign language spoken.)

10 INTERPRETER: Well, he is saying that 

11 this is also the views, shared views with all the 

12 members of Agronorte and that, well, he believes 

13 that you should take this into consideration as 

14 well.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: (Foreign language 

16 spoken.)

17 Are there questions from the Board 

18 members? Questions? No? Thank you. Thank you 

19 very much.

20 INTERPRETER: Thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

22 Sam Shaffer Joel to be followed by Jerome Rigot.
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1 All right, we have lost Sam. Jerome, 

2 are you there? Thank you very much.

3 MR. RIGOT: Hi. Hello, my name is 

4 Jerome Rigot. I am a pollution analyst for The 

5 Cornucopia Institute. I would like to make 

6 general comments about the celery powder.

7 Synthetic nitrates or nitrites are 

8 commonly used to cure meat. However, because 

9 synthetic nitrates are not allowed in organic 

10 production, celery powder is used as an 

11 alternative.

12 Celery powder produced by chemical 

13 intensive agriculture contains artificially 

14 induced high levels of nitrates from synthetic 

15 source and should be considered as a synthetic 

16 compound. Specific variety of celery is selected 

17 for its ability to create nitrates and the tissues 

18 are grown to produce the celery powder that would 

19 be used to cure organic meat products. The crop 

20 is extensively fertilized with synthetic nitrates, 

21 which are stored in the plant tissues. The celery 

22 powder obtained from the plant particularly is 
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1 basically the synthetic nitrate from the 

2 fertilizer used to grow the crop. This is why we 

3 suggest that celery powder should be reclassified 

4 under 605(b), allowed synthetics.

5 The evaluation of celery powder must 

6 take into consideration the resulting health and 

7 environmental hazard associated with the use of 

8 pesticide in the nonorganic production of celery. 

9 Several toxic pesticides, such as neonicotinoids, 

10 as well as organic phosphate and synthetic

11 insecticides are used on celery crops and their 

12 residues will end up concentrated in the powder 

13 used for curing organic meat products.

14 Nitrates and nitrites have no negative 

15 health effects. Nitrates, when used to cure meat 

16 products, are actually converted in this 

17 fermentation process to nitrites, which are the 

18 active components responsible for the curing of the 

19 meat.

20 Under high heat conditions, like frying 

21 of bacon, or high acid conditions, such as exist 

22 in the stomach, nitrates will convert to 
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1 nitrosamines, carcinogenic compounds.

2 However, the Handling Subcommittee did 

3 not address any health concerns associated with 

4 nitrates intake and none of the comments in support 

5 of the use of celery powder even mention the known 

6 negative health effects associated with dietary 

7 intake of nitrates or nitrites.

8 Actually today, there is a WHO report 

9 that came out and the report adds comparing cured 

10 meat products, the least of cancer-causing agents. 

11 That is just today.

12 No TR was ever compiled for celery 

13 powder. A TR would help assess the safety of 

14 celery powder and the availability of a viable 

15 alternative, organic or not. The TR would also 

16 help betterment the current availability of 

17 organic celery for the production of celery powder, 

18 which must be further investigated.

19 Apparently, there are no viable 

20 alternatives for conventionally grown celery 

21 powder and in consideration to potential hardship 

22 to organic farmers, The Cornucopia Institute 
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1 supports celery powder reclassification to 

2 205.605(b), synthetic alloweds. 

3 In addition, Cornucopia calls for 

4 additional research to develop a viable organic 

5 alternative within the next five years. 

6 Thank you for your attention.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

8 much. Any questions from the Board? Thank you.

9 MR. RIGOT: Thanks.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

11 Dave Folino. Dave are you here? And following 

12 Dave will be Mabell Rivas.

13 MR. FOLINO: Hi. My name is Dave 

14 Folino and I know Jean because she inspected our 

15 sugar bush a number of years ago.

16 I am an organic maple syrup producer 

17 from about an hour south of here. We tap 15,000 

18 maple trees and generally make between 5,000 and 

19 7,000 gallons of syrup a year. But I am not here 

20 to talk about my own operation.

21 What I would like to discuss is trying 

22 to reduce the fragmentation of organic standards 
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1 for maple syrup across the maple producing regions 

2 of the United States.

3 Maple syrup is made from wild trees 

4 throughout the northeastern part of the U.S. and 

5 the southern northeast part of Canada. Most of it 

6 is made in Canada but the United States is gaining 

7 ground on Canada, in terms of worldwide production.

8 In the United States, Vermont leads 

9 production followed by New York and Maine but all 

10 of the prominent regions in the United States have 

11 different organic rules. So, none of the 

12 producers play by the same rules, if they come from 

13 a different state. Things such as how big the 

14 trees need to be when you tap them are different 

15 and a number of other very more technical things.

16 So, even though the syrup could end up 

17 in a barrel and could end up ten miles from here 

18 in a big warehouse, if it comes from one of the 

19 different regions, it will all be labeled organic, 

20 it will all be sold probably for the same price, 

21 and it will all be made under different organic 

22 rules.
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1 So, my request, and I appreciate the 

2 opportunity to speak to the Board, is that if there 

3 could be some way that the rules could be harmonized 

4 and standardized in a national way, it would even 

5 the playing field for all the producers. Right 

6 now, it is a big hodge-podge. Almost every 

7 prominent state has their own rules. Canada has 

8 different rules. Canada's are in metric system, 

9 so that makes their trees happens to be that their 

10 trees are smaller because the metric system, a nice 

11 unit, was 7.8 inches instead of 9 inches. I mean 

12 just little things like that but they make a big 

13 difference.

14 That is basically what I would like to 

15 ask for and any help that I could give in that 

16 effort, I would be happy to do. I'm not even doing 

17 this for myself. We sell almost all of our syrup 

18 directly to consumers and we don't even put any into 

19 a barrel and we are not too worried about selling 

20 our crop.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

22 much, Dave. Are there questions, comments? Yes, 
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1 Tom.

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: To clarify, when you 

3 say, and I am talking within the U.S. not about 

4 Canada, when you say there are different standards 

5 by different regions, you are meaning standards in 

6 addition to the current NOP Organic Standards vary 

7 from state to state?

8 MR. FOLINO: Yes, they do. Places 

9 like Maine, Massachusetts, New York State, and 

10 Vermont, all have their own rules and they all 

11 differ in a lot of small ways.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Related to maple 

13 production or organic maple production?

14 MR. FOLINO: Organic maple production.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, just to 

16 clarify, the Vermont Organic Farmers has what are 

17 called Maple Syrup Production Guidelines because 

18 there isn't a specific NOP rule that covers the 

19 maple syrup. Therefore, Maine has their own and 

20 New York and so on. So, there is a lack of 

21 consistency in certification.

22 MR. FOLINO: That's exactly right.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So that will be 

2 something I hope which will be being addressed. 

3 And I am assuming that you are working with VOF to 

4 bring that to the attention of the NOP.

5 MR. FOLINO: Yes.

6 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, it sounds like there 

7 is one organic standard, so all of these certifiers 

8 should be following the same USDA organic 

9 regulations. If they have additional 

10 requirements, then it is -- I'm a little lost on 

11 how that is possible. So, we will talk to you and 

12 get some information from the certifiers on this 

13 particular topic.

14 I know that Canada, in our equivalency 

15 discussions with them, we meet with them on a 

16 regular basis, have requested that there are more 

17 specific organic maple requirements in the U.S. for 

18 purposes of equivalency. But it is like there are 

19 many parts -- many things that are certified under 

20 the general organic regulations, mushrooms, in 

21 particular, aquiculture, where we are still 

22 working on putting the recommendations from the 
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1 NOSB into more of a regulatory context. But I 

2 don't think the NOSB has ever looked at a standard 

3 for organic maple production. They have? No, 

4 they haven't. Okay.

5 So, maybe another thing for the work 

6 agenda.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Our work agenda 

8 gets longer. Thank you, David, for your comments. 

9 They are very much appreciated.

10 MR. FOLINO: Thank you very much.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

12 Mabell Rivas, of QAI, followed by Tyler Smith.

13 MS. RIVAS: Hello, Mabell Rivas, 

14 Senior Reviewer at QAI.

15 Since 1998, I have been working for 

16 organic certifiers, throughput users, and 

17 processors in the U.S. and Latin America. Thank 

18 you for the opportunity to comment on behalf of QAI.

19 First of all, I would like to recognize 

20 and thank this Board for the extraordinary that it 

21 has done working through the sunset list. I found

22 the information provided in each NOSB proposal to 
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1 be informative, detailed and comprehensive.

2 Thank you also for your efforts that you 

3 have put into the new ancillary substances 

4 proposal. We appreciate it, the general approach 

5 that you have taken with it. 

6 The idea of establishing function of 

7 classes is a good one. It is important, however, 

8 that the process for petition of additional 

9 function of classes be well spelled out. Also, we 

10 would like to say good job on function of classes 

11 for pectin. We compared what is in the proposal 

12 with the spec sheets that are in our records and 

13 the function of classes proposal are accurate.

14 Let me quickly touch on the specific 

15 materials that we have addressed in the written 

16 comment. Flavors. We concur with OTA that the 

17 level of certain flavors in organic form has 

18 increased, as the industry has grown. However, 

19 keep in mind that nonorganic, non-agricultural 

20 flavor ingredients used in the making of organic 

21 certified flavors are not, to our knowledge, 

22 available. These flavor ingredients are 
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1 currently be approved based on the listing of 

2 flavors in 605.

3 The requirement of violating 

4 commercial availability for organic flavor 

5 manufacturers might not be a very sound and 

6 sensible approach but more of a paper chase.

7 Tocopherols. We feel that there is not 

8 enough information to tell with certainty that the 

9 tocopherols are being used, although they derive 

10 from natural oil, should be deemed non-synthetic. 

11 Let's first finalize guidance on classification of 

12 materials and then get to work on moving materials 

13 from 605(b) to 605(a).

14 There are two new points that I would 

15 like to make here today. First, regarding humic 

16 acid. There are 17 QAI clients using humic acid. 

17 Humic acid appeared to be a great tool for 

18 increasing soil organic matter one of the basic 

19 principle for organic farming. Based on the 

20 background of discussions you have had, it appears 

21 that there are some concerns related to the use of 

22 synthetic extractions processes. 
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1 Then, let's work on classification of 

2 material final guidance and then assess whether 

3 further restrictions should be applied to this 

4 material.

5 And I would like to close with this 

6 general comment. In the spirit of sound and 

7 sensible, we encourage consistency of criteria 

8 whenever possible when assessing different uses 

9 for a material across the production chain. In 

10 some situations, we, as a certifier, find ourselves 

11 on the fence of our materials that are approved for 

12 certain functions but not for others.

13 For example, ozone gas, a naturally 

14 occurring substance currently allowed for the 

15 cleaning of an irrigation line but not but is 

16 disallowed for contacting with soil. Ethylene gas 

17 might be in a similar situation. It seems that the 

18 NOSB members has released it for crop production 

19 but not for use in post-harvest handling.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

21 much. Questions? Tom.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Can you explain further 
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1 what you meant by the flavor proposal not being 

2 sound and sensible?

3 MS. RIVAS: Yes. Like I said in my 

4 comment, currently, organic certified flavors, 

5 some type of flavors, are composed of nonorganic, 

6 nonagricultural flavor ingredients. And right 

7 now was as the certifiers the way we assess those 

8 is based on the annotation of 605.

9 So, if we are changing the annotation 

10 to request commercial availability, we are talking 

11 her about organic flavor manufacturers, it may not 

12 be a sound and sensible approach because those 

13 flavor ingredients are not available in organic 

14 form, to our knowledge.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. So, are you 

16 speaking about the flavoring constituents' portion 

17 of the flavor?

18 MS. RIVAS: Yes, I am talking about 

19 organic required flavors. We certify organic 

20 flavor manufacturers. Correct.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: And is your comment 

22 specifically about the flavoring constituent 
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1 portion or the non-flavoring constituent portion 

2 of the flavor.

3 MS. RIVAS: For the flavor 

4 constituents. Those will fall under the listing 

5 of 605.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So, you are saying it 

7 is a paper chase or potentially paper chase for an 

8 organic flavor that is organic because it is 95 

9 percent organic alcohol and five percent some other 

10 flavor constituent.

11 MS. RIVAS: Flavoring ingredient. 

12 Correct.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay, thank you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other questions? 

15 Thank you very much.

16 MS. RIVAS: Thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

18 Tyler Smith to be followed by Julie Weisman.

19 MR. SMITH: Good evening. My name is 

20 Tyler Smith. I am an epidemiologist and 

21 environmental health scientist with Consumer 

22 Reports Food Safety and Sustainability Center. I 
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1 oversee their food safety testing.

2 Earlier today, my colleague, Dr. 

3 Rangan, mentioned our commitment to sustainable 

4 agriculture and the importance of organic farming 

5 to sustainability. Indeed, many of our tests have 

6 repeatedly found that more sustainable, often 

7 organic, food is safer or offers substantial value 

8 to consumers compared to conventionally produced 

9 food and we frequently recommend that consumers 

10 choose organic food options, when available.

11 In fact, most recently, tests published 

12 in the October issue of Consumer Reports found that 

13 ground beef that was organic grass fed and/or 

14 raised without antibiotics was half as likely as 

15 conventionally produced ground beef to carry MRSA 

16 or bacteria that are resistant to three or more 

17 classes of antibiotics.

18 Importantly, we found that even more 

19 sustainably produced beef, that is beef that is 

20 grass fed and raised without antibiotics, was 

21 one-third as likely as conventionally produced 

22 ground beef to carry these bacteria.
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1 So, in our beef report, which is 

2 available on the table out there for free, we 

3 recommend that consumers choose organic grass fed 

4 beef whenever possible and I encourage everyone to 

5 take a look at the report.

6 We strongly believe that organic is an 

7 important foundation for sustainable agriculture. 

8 And indeed, we hope that the NOSB will use this 

9 meeting to build upon that foundation. There are 

10 several important opportunities on the agenda 

11 related to what I just mentioned, although in a 

12 different species. It concerns us that 

13 antibiotics can be used in hatcheries in day-old 

14 chicks that will be raised as organic, even when 

15 research clearly links this practice to the 

16 emergence and spread antibiotic resistance. And 

17 we hope that the NOSB will take up this issue at 

18 this meeting as we have been informed by Secretary 

19 Vilsack that they will.

20 It is also important that the NOSB 

21 review the safety of so-called inert ingredients 

22 prior to their inclusion on the National List. The 
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1 review of synthetics prior to their inclusion on 

2 the National List is critical to organic integrity, 

3 as well as consumer trust in the organic label.

4 We, therefore, disagree with the Crops 

5 Subcommittee's proposal to replace this review 

6 with the EPA's Safer Chemical Ingredients List. 

7 Instead, we urge implementation of the NOSB 

8 recommendation adopted unanimously in 2012 to 

9 independently review synthetic materials 

10 identified as inert or other ingredients in 

11 pesticide products used in organic production in 

12 a transparent fashion. We believe that the list 

13 can serve as a way to prioritize review, as we 

14 understand resources can be limited but it should 

15 not be a replacement for NOSB review. Thank you 

16 very much.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you for your 

18 comments. Questions?

19 And it is my understanding that we will 

20 be getting on the work agenda the day-old chick 

21 issue for antibiotics.

22 MR. SMITH: Wonderful. Thank you very 
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1 much. 

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

3 The next speaker is Julie Weisman and 

4 last but not least will be Gwendolyn Wyard.

5 MS. WEISMAN: Deputy Administrator 

6 McEvoy, Chairperson Richardson, and members of the 

7 National Organic Standards Board, thank you for the 

8 opportunity for letting me comment. And thank you 

9 also for your service, especially to those of you 

10 for whom this is your last meeting. I remember 

11 what that feels like.

12 My name is Julie Weisman and I am 

13 speaking today as a representative of Elan, which 

14 is a producer of both organic and nonorganic 

15 flavors and flavor ingredients, especially organic 

16 vanilla. Flavorganics is a national brand of 

17 certified organic flavors, flavor products for 

18 home use. And along with our affiliate, Natural 

19 Flavors, Inc., we have been making certified 

20 organic flavors since 1997. 

21 I have been an organic consumer for the 

22 past 30 years and as a former NOSB member and past 
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1 chair of the Handling Committee, I am intimately 

2 familiar with the issue and the process that you 

3 are engaged in. 

4 My request is short and simple, that 

5 flavors be relisted on 205.605(a) and that the 

6 annotation of flavors, such as the OTA petition was 

7 for, be amended to require those using nonorganic 

8 flavors to demonstrate why they couldn't use an 

9 organic flavor and that is really it.

10 I know it seems strange that as a major 

11 supplier of organic flavors, I would be imploring 

12 you to bless the continued use of an ingredient that 

13 competes with my own but here is why. Flavors, 

14 nonorganic flavors are essential to the continued 

15 sales of the majority of organic agriculture 

16 products grown and raised in the U.S. The fact of 

17 the matter is that the glass half empty view is that 

18 most organic certified products that use flavors 

19 only 20 percent of them use organic flavors and 80 

20 percent of them do not. So, if you let flavors 

21 sunset, I think that would be a train wreck for this 

22 industry over an item that is present in organic 
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1 consumer products in concentrations of less than 

2 four-tenths of a percent.

3 And the reason why is because there is 

4 not a sufficient supply of all the organic raw 

5 materials needed to replace those that would be 

6 lost. And developing new organic ingredients, 

7 which I have been involved in, is a long dance 

8 between the developer and the marketplace. It may 

9 be possible, theoretically to develop a process to 

10 make an agreement as certified organic and that 

11 doesn't mean that companies capable of making such 

12 an ingredient are inclined to do so.

13 And secondly, as the previous commenter 

14 pointed out, organic flavors, themselves, would be 

15 at risk and I guess it is not so shocking at this 

16 point but certified organic flavors do rely, to a 

17 small degree in volume, but a large degree in taste 

18 impact on ingredients that are considered flavors 

19 non-synthetic.

20 I also think that moving them to 606 is 

21 not a solution. You can ask me why later. I think 

22 that the combination, as I said before, of 
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1 relisting them and including an annotation is the

2 most workable solution to the problem. Thank you 

3 for your time and for letting me make this comment.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you Julie. 

5 Do we have questions for Julie? No. Thank you 

6 very much.

7 The last speaker of the day, I think. 

8 Is she the last one? You mean we don't have any 

9 more after this?

10 Okay, Gwendolyn, you are up.

11 MS. WYARD: Good evening Madam Chair, 

12 NOP staff, and ladies and gentlemen of the gallery, 

13 and they are dwindling.

14 My name is Gwendolyn Wyard and I serve 

15 as the Senior Director of Regulatory Affairs for 

16 the Organic Trade Association. Three minutes is 

17 but a fleeting amount of time and we have submitted 

18 extensive written comments. So, I am going to take 

19 this opportunity to just say a few words about OTA's 

20 petition on natural flavors and answer any 

21 questions that you may have.

22 First off, the Organic Trade 
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1 Association firmly believes that the National List 

2 should continue to reflect the best and least toxic 

3 technology our food system has developed. We are 

4 also fully committed to the development and use of 

5 organic seed and to the development and use of 

6 organic ingredients and processing aids that are 

7 currently allow in nonorganic form.

8 It is for this reason that we submitted 

9 our petition to require the use of organic flavors 

10 when they are commercially available, and more 

11 recently convened the OTA National List Innovation 

12 Working Group.

13 In 1995, when NOSB made its 

14 recommendation to allow natural flavors in organic 

15 products, there were zero certified organic 

16 flavors. In 1995, the Board anticipated that 

17 organic flavors were possible. And, accordingly, 

18 drafted additional language that would push the 

19 industry to work towards the development of organic 

20 flavors. Unfortunately, that part of their 

21 recommendation was not adopted by NOP.

22 Regardless, today, we have over 2,146 
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1 certified organic flavors and over 189 certified 

2 suppliers, based the 2014 ACA survey. This 

3 progress was made without any requirement to use 

4 organic flavors. All use at this time is 

5 voluntary. So, can you imagine where we can go if 

6 our petition is adopted?

7 The Handling Subcommittee states that 

8 our petition does not go far enough and that we need 

9 to push the industry along the lines of the 1995 

10 recommendation.

11 We absolutely agree that our work is not 

12 done but I want to clarify that our petition not 

13 only captures the 1995 recommendation but it 

14 actually takes it a step further by requesting a 

15 mandatory requirement to use certified organic 

16 flavors when they are available. Keep in mind that 

17 the 1995 recommendation did not require certified 

18 operators to use certified organic flavors. It 

19 simply required operators to demonstrate in the 

20 organic systems plan, the efforts being made 

21 towards the ultimate production of a certified 

22 organic flavor.
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1 In 1995, certified organic flavors 

2 didn't exist. So, that recommendation made sense 

3 at that time.

4 But we are way beyond the days of 

5 demonstrating efforts to produce an organic 

6 flavor. That is so 1995. The flavor houses have 

7 that covered.

8 In 2015, when over 2,000 certified 

9 organic flavors are available, certified operators 

10 simply need to be required to use organic flavors, 

11 if they are available.

12 From here on out, we need to ramp up the 

13 supply of organic flavors, get certifiers 

14 additional guidance and training on carrying out 

15 commercial availability requirements and bring 

16 fair and consistent enforcement to the process.

17 In closing, OTA drafted a petition that 

18 we believe will work within the constructs of 

19 current certification system and the current 

20 supply of organic flavors. To vote no on the 

21 Handling Subcommittee's proposal is a no vote to 

22 progress. Thank you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you 

2 Gwendolyn. Questions? Tracy.

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I guess I am a little 

4 confused about the reluctance to vote in favor of 

5 this proposal, given, as I understand, if organic 

6 flavor is not available, then they are allowed to 

7 use conventional.

8 So, can you speak to that a little bit? 

9 We are getting comments back from some folks that 

10 there is dire consequences if we do this, blah, 

11 blah.

12 I don't mean to demean that. I'm just 

13 saying it is a very complicated issue and I am 

14 curious.

15 MS. WYARD: Explain to me one more time 

16 what the reluctance is to say to adopt the proposal?

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Well, we have 

18 received public comment that indicates people are 

19 reluctant for us to adopt this proposal because of 

20 concerns about that.

21 MS. WYARD: Well, it is going to take 

22 additional work. There is no question about that. 
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1 It is going to take additional time and it is going 

2 to take additional resources. It is going to bring 

3 everybody up to a level playing field.

4 Right now, there are companies that 

5 have been using certified organic flavors, and I 

6 am talking we are ranging from simple extracts that 

7 are just made using peppermint leaves and alcohol, 

8 to more of your compounded flavors that we have 

9 heard mentioned today where you have alcohol and 

10 flavor constituents and organic concentrates. 

11 There is a broad range of flavors and, in some 

12 cases, it is going to be straightforward, but 

13 everybody is going to have to do a little bit more 

14 work so that everybody is at the same level. The 

15 company right now is taking all the time and 

16 resources to source and use organic flavors. Now, 

17 everybody is going to have to do that.

18 So, I think it is the reluctance to 

19 change and the additional work that it is going to 

20 take but I don't think we can continue to have all 

21 of these companies and all these flavors that are 

22 being used by some and not others. If you look at 
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1 all of the time and effort that is being spent on 

2 looking for ingredients to come off of 205.606 when 

3 you may only have one supplier, you know, and very 

4 limited availability, this is -- you know I started 

5 commenting in favor of requiring commercial 

6 availability for organic flavors in 2004. This is 

7 what, my 26th time being here? It is just time we 

8 do this.

9 It is the right thing to do. And I get 

10 that it is going to take a little extra work.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tracy, follow-up?

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes. So, how do you 

13 address the comments that we have received that for 

14 certain formulations, certain flavor formulations 

15 have to be used. Can you speak to that?

16 MS. WYARD: So, I have heard there are 

17 some flavors that are certified organic because 

18 they contain 95 percent certified organic 

19 agricultural material. Now, if they are being 

20 labeled as an organic flavor, there is going to be 

21 some organic flavor component in there. And there 

22 are some labeling issues that I believe is going 
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1 to need to be addressed by NOP but it is a separate 

2 issue and I really don't want to see that get in 

3 the way of certified organic flavors and the 

4 petition that we are submitting.

5 But what is going to happen is that this 

6 requirement to use organic flavors is also going 

7 to apply to the flavor houses. So the flavor house 

8 right now is making a certified organic flavor and 

9 they are using a natural flavor when there is an 

10 organic flavor that is out there, they will have 

11 to use it, too. So, it is going to push everyone 

12 towards the ultimate production of an organic 

13 flavor that is 99.9 percent organic. You are going 

14 to have maybe citric acid or tocopherol, or some

15 of these other nonagricultural 605 ingredients in 

16 there. It might never be 100 percent organic but 

17 it is going to push everyone towards the ultimate 

18 production of a flavor that contains close to 100 

19 percent organic everything, agricultural 

20 components plus organic flavors.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Any more 

22 questions? Michelle? Oh, Harold.
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you, Jean.

2 MS. WYARD: Oh, good. I was going to 

3 say take down my infographics so that I can see. 

4 Hi, there.

5 MEMBER AUSTIN: Over here. Did you

6 ever think that you would see this day come, that 

7 we would be communicating at one of these meetings 

8 in this manner?

9 MS. WYARD: Absolutely.

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: I figured we would see 

11 pigs fly first, but yet, here we are.

12 My question: Why do you think that the 

13 NOP did not include the NOSB's 1995 recommendation 

14 to require organic in the final rule?

15 MS. WYARD: Well, I think probably NOP 

16 is going to be the best ones to answer that. And 

17 so I am going to invite you to step in.

18 But I will take a shot at my thoughts 

19 on it because I think it is important to the genesis 

20 of this issue. Miles, with your permission, or I 

21 can just turn it over to you.

22 MR. MCEVOY: I have no idea.
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1 MS. WYARD: Okay. Well, then I will 

2 take a shot at it.

3 I don't think it was to inhibit progress 

4 towards the production of organic flavors. I 

5 don't think that was it at all. I think the issue 

6 is that flavors were put onto the nonagricultural 

7 list. The nonagricultural list was created 

8 because in process products you have these minor 

9 ingredients that are essential to a process product 

10 but you can't get them in organic form, period, 

11 because they are nonagricultural and the 

12 regulations certify agricultural products.

13 So, they wrote a recommendation for 

14 flavors that were put on the nonagricultural list 

15 and I am envisioning the general counsel and the 

16 lawyers that are looking at the rule as it is being 

17 written and they are scratching their heads, going 

18 we are going to require operators to write up 

19 descriptions in the organic systems plan, 

20 demonstrating their efforts to produce an organic 

21 flavor when it is being listed as something that 

22 can't be organic. I think they just ran into a 
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1 technical SNAFU and did the best they could.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, that is 

3 the only answer you are going to get, Harold. And 

4 I should note for the record that Harold Austin has 

5 his third set of clothes on for the day. The record 

6 should show the rest of us have had to stay in our 

7 outfits all day. And he probably just has running 

8 trunks on underneath. So, who knows.

9 MS. WYARD: Thank you everyone so much 

10 for your time and all of your service.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, thank you, 

12 Gwendolyn.

13 All right, that brings us to the end of 

14 today's presentations and public comments. And we 

15 look forward to seeing you again here at 8:30 

16 tomorrow morning.

17 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

18 went off the record at 6:24 p.m.)

19 

20 

21 

22 
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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 
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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

FALL 2015 MEETING

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

OCTOBER 27, 2015

+ + + + +

The Board met in the Pinnacle Room of the Stoweflake 

Conference Center, Stowe, Vermont, at 8:30 a.m., 

Jean Richardson, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT

JEAN RICHARDSON, Chair

TRACY FAVRE, Vice Chair

HAROLD AUSTIN, Secretary (via Skype)

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR BONDERA

TOM CHAPMAN

LISA DE LIMA

NICK MARAVELL

ZEA SONNABEND

ROBERT "MAC" STONE

ASHLEY SWAFFAR

JENNIFER TAYLOR

FRANCIS THICKE

C. REUBEN WALKER
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ALSO PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board Specialist, 

National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, National List Manager, National 

Organic Program

EMILY BROWN ROSEN, Agricultural Marketing 

Specialist, National Organic Program

PAUL LEWIS, Director, Standards Division, 

National Organic Program, USDA

SAM JONES, AMS Public Affairs Specialist

MILES MEVOY, Designated Federal Officer, 

Deputy Administrator, National Organic 

Program
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CONTENTS

MORNING SESSION

Welcome and Introduction

Jean Richardson.......................... 6 

Jenny Moffitt............................ 6 

Public Speakers/Comments

Madison (Maddy) Monty................... 13

Dr. Vern Grubinger...................... 16

Gregory Jackmauh........................ 23

Kate Duesterberg........................ 27

Christie Badger......................... 32

Stephanie Rodriguez Hidalgo............. 36

Andy Jones.............................. 43

Charlotte Vallaeys...................... 47

Will Allen.............................. 52

Stuart Follen........................... 59

Robin Hadlock Seeley.................... 64

Nicholas Gardner........................ 70

Kate Davis.............................. 76

Wanda Jurlina........................... 79

Cheryl Van Dyne......................... 83

Lori Klopf.............................. 87

Zareb Herman............................ 96

BREAK

Public Speakers/Comments continued...

Kris Anderson.......................... 100

Myra Weiner............................ 106

Rolf Carlson........................... 112

Reed Miller............................ 117

Katrina Heinze......................... 120

Joe Moidl.............................. 123

Troy Aykan............................. 126

Joe Smillie............................ 133

Larry Plesent.......................... 137

Frans Wielemaker....................... 141

Luis Monge............................. 144

Jennie Landry.......................... 148

Jeffery Bogusz......................... 155

Phil LaRocca........................... 160

Beth Unger............................. 164
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Ron Rosmann............................ 151

Curtis Bennett......................... 157

Seth Gardner........................... 167

Cameron Harsh.......................... 171

Beth Jones............................. 176

John Ashby............................. 183

David Will............................. 186

David Marchant......................... 193

Mike Bald.............................. 196

Anne Lazor............................. 199

Jack Lazor............................. 202

Kelly Tavaras.......................... 207

Marty Mesh............................. 210

AFTERNOON SESSION

Introductory Remarks

Chair Richardson....................... 245

Zea Sonnabend.......................... 247

Crops Subcommittee

Sunset 2017 Review Meeting 2

Review Crops-Substances October 2015

Proposal/Discussions and Votes

by Zea Sonnabend 

Alcohol (Ethanol, Isopropanol) .............. 261

Chlorine Materials (Calcium hypochlorite,

Chlorine dioxide, Sodium hypochlorite) ...... 266

Hydrogen peroxide ........................... 269

Soap-based algicide/demossers ............... 270

Herbicides, soap-based ...................... 274

Newspaper or other recycled paper ........... 276

Plastic mulch and covers .................... 278

Soaps, ammonium ............................. 285

Ammonium carbonate .......................... 286

Boric acid .................................. 289

Elemental sulfur ............................ 291

Lime sulfur ................................. 294

Oils, horticultural ......................... 296

Soaps, insecticidal ......................... 300

Sticky traps/barriers ....................... 301

Sucrose octanoate esters .................... 304
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Crops Subcommittee (cont.)

Pheromones .................................. 305

Vitamin D3 .................................. 308

Copper sulfate .............................. 313

Coppers, fixed .............................. 313

Hydrated lime ............................... 321

Potassium bicarbonate ....................... 323

Aquatic plant extracts ...................... 328

Humic acids ................................. 332

Lignin sulfonate ............................ 335

Magnesium sulfate ........................... 346

Micronutrients (Soluble boron products, Sulfates,

carbonates, oxides, or silicates of zinc, copper,

iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and

cobalt) ..................................... 348

Liquid fish products ........................ 352

Vitamin B1, C, E ............................ 360

Ethylene .................................... 362

Sodium silicate ............................. 383

EPA List 4-Inerts of Minimal Concern ........ 389

Microcrystalline cheesewax .................. 398

Prohibited Non-Synthetic Materials .......... 402

Ash from manure burning

Arsenic

Lead salts

Potassium chloride

Sodium fluoaluminate

Strychnine

Tobacco dust (nicotine sulfate)

Adjourn
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 (8:33 a.m.)

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Good morning 

4 everybody, I'm very pleased to start this morning's 

5 meeting. A bright sunny morning, about 25 degrees 

6 out there when I woke up this morning. Just 

7 lovely, sorry for you folks that live in warmer 

8 climates. It'll be sunny all day so take advantage 

9 and zip up over the Notch at lunch time if you can, 

10 because it's going to rain tomorrow and the Notch 

11 is open, so it should be beautiful to see the sort 

12 of leaves on the trees.

13 The first thing I'd like to do this 

14 morning is introduce to you Jenny Moffitt. She's 

15 the Deputy Secretary of the Department of Food and 

16 Agriculture from the great state of California. 

17 Jenny.

18 MS. MOFFITT: Hi, good morning, Dr. 

19 Richardson. I'm glad to be here in one of my most 

20 favorite states, of course besides California. 

21 And to be here to speak at the National Organic 

22 Standards Board.
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1 First off I just want to thank you for 

2 all of your hard work and dedication. I know it 

3 takes a lot of time. But I appreciate, and I think 

4 the organic industry really appreciates the work 

5 that you guys do on behalf of the community.

6 This past January, Governor Brown, 

7 appointed me as the Deputy Secretary for the 

8 California Department of Food and Agriculture. 

9 But most people here in this room know me as an 

10 organic farmer. Born and raised on my family's 

11 organic walnut farm, I am a proud fifth generation 

12 California farmer. But I'm an even more proud 

13 organic farmer.

14 At CDFA, I work on policy related to 

15 climate change, water, land use. But organic is 

16 really where my heart is. And it's an important 

17 industry to California and to CDFA. According to 

18 USDA's 2014 organic survey, California is the 

19 largest organic producing state with over 40 

20 percent of all organic production in the nation.

21 Our 2800 California organic farmers and 

22 ranchers account for 2.2 billion in organic sales. 
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1 California is unique in that we are the only state 

2 that has a nationally accredited state organic 

3 program. As such, California is responsible for 

4 adopting and upholding the National Organic 

5 Standards.

6 Since 2003, the State Organic Program 

7 has worked alongside organic producers and the 

8 California Organic Products Advisory Committee 

9 also called COPAC, to ensure consumers can trust 

10 the integrity of the organic claim.

11 Often members of CDFA's COPAC are also 

12 members of the National Organic Standards Board. 

13 For instance, we have Tom Chapman as both a member 

14 of COPAC and NOSB.

15 The State Organic Program staff and the 

16 state's network of county agricultural 

17 commissioners are responsible for verifying that 

18 organic certification, offenders, and Farmers 

19 Markets, conducting an unannounced inspections of 

20 operations.

21 We also sample organic products for 

22 pesticide residue testing. We conduct complaint 
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1 investigations. Last year we conducted 85 

2 investigations alone. And we process appeals and 

3 provide due process.

4 As Melody Meyer, who is Chair of COPAC, 

5 mentioned yesterday, CDFA just announced the 

6 launch of a GMO testing pilot project for organic 

7 products. The goal of this pilot project is to 

8 gather data to determine presence, and if present, 

9 the level of GMOs in organic products sold in 

10 California. These results will help inform us on 

11 next steps.

12 CDFA also has an Organic Input 

13 Materials Program. In 2010 the state of 

14 California passed legislation establishing an 

15 Organic Input Material Program within CDFA's 

16 Fertilizing Materials Inspection Program. This 

17 legislation was designed to address concerns about 

18 the integrity of fertilizing materials marketed 

19 for our use in certified organic growing.

20 The organic material program registers 

21 for licensing materials to be used organic crop 

22 production. We maintain a list of approved 
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1 organic input materials or OIM products on our 

2 website. We also maintain a database that 

3 includes the status of all approved and in process 

4 applications.

5 All OIM labels are required to be 

6 reviewed and registered with CDFA before they can 

7 be marketed in California. The program's 

8 scientific staff performs extensive scientific 

9 review of OIM product source ingredients and 

10 manufacturing processes and ensures that the 

11 product meets the USDA National Organic Standards.

12 In addition, each OIM manufacturing 

13 facility is inspected annually by the field staff, 

14 and samples are taken at various stages of the 

15 manufacturing process to validate label claims and 

16 guarantees. This new program was implemented in 

17 January 2012.

18 Dale Woods is here with me today, and 

19 he manages the program. Currently, over 1500 OIM 

20 projects are registered with CDFA and the program 

21 has inspected 150 OIM manufacturing facilities. 

22 The OIM program was ISO-17065 accredited just this 
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1 past January by USDA AMS.

2 We're here for the rest of the week, and 

3 we're happy to talk with you more about the program. 

4 Pull me aside or pull Dale aside, and we'd love to 

5 talk with you guys more about that. But again, I 

6 wanted to thank you guys for your commitment, for 

7 your time, and for your energy serving on this 

8 Board. Thank you.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

10 for your comments. Are there any immediate 

11 questions from the Board? You'll be with us this 

12 evening I hope?

13 MS. MOFFITT: Yes.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: At the reception. 

15 Okay, thank you very much.

16 First of our public comment speakers 

17 this morning is Maddy Monty, from NOFA Vermont. If 

18 you'd like to come up Maddy? And she'll be 

19 followed by Vern Grubinger. For those of you who 

20 are new here today, weren't here yesterday. We do 

21 have a seat up here behind Michelle Arsenault, who 

22 is our -- the person who does all the work here and 
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1 makes everything function actually, up near the 

2 microphone.

3 If the person who's sort of on deck, 

4 would like to come up there, then we can move along 

5 as quickly as we can do. And each of you will 

6 notice that there are little lights that come on. 

7 Michelle, can you explain those lights again, I 

8 can't remember exactly how they go?

9 MS. ARSENAULT: Yes, so there are three 

10 lights on the timer on the podium. Red, yellow, 

11 and green although it looks orange to me. The 

12 orange light will come on when you have one minute 

13 left of your three minutes. And it will blink 

14 obnoxiously. And then when the timer goes off, 

15 it's very loud and obnoxious. And you'll know your 

16 time is up.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: And there's also a 

19 remote on the podium, so if you have a PowerPoint 

20 presentation, you can advance your slides 

21 yourself. The right and left arrows will do that.

22 MS. MONTY: Thanks. Good morning. 
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1 I'm just going old school with the pad of papers 

2 today. My name is Maddy Monty and I'm here today 

3 on behalf of the Northeast Organic Farming 

4 Association of Vermont and our roughly 1300 members 

5 throughout Vermont and other northeast states.

6 I appreciate this opportunity to 

7 provide comment to the Board. I'd like to share 

8 comments today on two general topics including the 

9 certification of hydroponic operations and GMO 

10 prevention guidance.

11 NOFA Vermont supports the Board's 2010 

12 recommendation that hydroponic operations be 

13 prohibited from obtaining organic certification. 

14 We believe the maintenance and management of 

15 organic matter in the soil is the foundation of 

16 organic farming.

17 And we request a moratorium on the 

18 certification of any new hydroponic operations 

19 until the Board is able to review the findings of 

20 USDA's newly created Hydroponics Task Force. And 

21 until NOP puts out a proposed rule based on the 

22 Board's 2010 recommendation.
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1 The longer NOP waits to clarify this 

2 policy, the more hydroponic systems will become 

3 certified and the harder it will become to 

4 institute a change. So again, we would like to see 

5 action on that issue in accordance with the NOSB's 

6 2010 recommendation.

7 Secondly, we feel the prevention of GE 

8 contamination is a very critical issue to Vermont's 

9 organic farmers and those throughout the country. 

10 We appreciate the good work the Board has done on 

11 this subject up to this point but feel that much 

12 more still needs to be done.

13 The responsibility to prevent GE 

14 contamination must not continue to fall solely on 

15 organic producers. And we request that USDA and 

16 NOP develop a Memorandum of Understanding that 

17 agrees to require GE growers and patent-holders to 

18 adhere to mandatory contamination prevention 

19 measures.

20 And that's all I have for today, and 

21 I'm happy to answer any questions that there are.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Maddy. 
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1 Are there questions from the NOSB? Yes, Nick.

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: Do you have a draft 

3 of such a Memorandum of Understanding?

4 MS. MONTY: I personally haven't seen 

5 a draft of such an MOU, but I'd be happy to reach

6 out to our partner organizations; NOFA is a 

7 participating member in the National Organic 

8 Coalition. And I know that this is something that 

9 they have supported in their comments as well, and 

10 I'd be happy to check in with them and see if they 

11 have drafted such a memo.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: That would be good, 

13 and forward it to the Board.

14 MS. MONTY: Okay.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tom has a question.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I understand your 

17 concerns with hydroponics. Do you have similar 

18 concerns with greenhouse operations?

19 MS. MONTY: No, I wouldn't say that 

20 NOFA has similar concerns about greenhouse 

21 operations that are growing in soil mediums. Our 

22 concerns are primarily around soilless mediums and 
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1 hydroponics in particular.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

3 much, Maddy.

4 MS. MONTY: Thank you.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Next speaker is Dr. 

6 Vern Grubinger, and he'll be followed by Greg 

7 Jackmauh.

8 MR. GRUBINGER: Good morning, I'm Vern 

9 Grubinger. I'm the vegetable and berry 

10 specialist, University of Vermont Extension, and 

11 I've been working with organic farmers for over 25 

12 years in the state and the region. And I wanted 

13 to talk about the issue of copper fungicides for 

14 disease control in crops.

15 Currently as it stands, as an extension 

16 person making pest control recommendations for 

17 some serious diseases such as leaf blight on 

18 potatoes and tomatoes, which are really high value 

19 crops in this region, we don't have good 

20 alternatives to copper.

21 And copper is marginally effective, but 

22 it's really better than anything else we can 
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1 recommend. And I want to endorse your research 

2 priority to seek out alternatives. But until 

3 alternatives are proven, I urge you to keep the 

4 fixed coppers on the list.

5 This past year, we did try and get some 

6 other materials into the state that research had 

7 shown as pretty effective. The EF-400 is one 

8 botanical material, but we were unable to actually 

9 get it registered even in Vermont, even though it 

10 was 25(b) exempt, as it is supposed to be. And the 

11 supply chain just isn't there.

12 There are also some new materials, the 

13 copper soaps coming onto the market, Cueva and 

14 others. But the efficacy isn't entirely proven.

15 So I think the tension that we have is 

16 that growers don't want to use these materials. 

17 They're very careful when they're applying them, 

18 but we have a lot of high value profit stake, and 

19 you know they're doing their best to manage them.

20 The issue of accumulation in the soil 

21 comes up and I just wanted to provide some data that 

22 we've collected with regard to that. We 
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1 summarized the results of 17,200 heavy metal soil 

2 test screens that were done at the University of 

3 Vermont with pH 4.8 ammonium acetate extract.

4 And we did this after the flooding with 

5 Irene; we were trying to see what kind of metals 

6 might have been deposited, but it was sort of 

7 fortuitous that we got a reading on copper levels 

8 in the soil. And of those 17,000 farms, we could 

9 only safely assume many hundreds of them were 

10 organic because we had over 150 certified vegetable 

11 operations during that time period from 2007 to 

12 2011. And many more that are people that are 

13 following organic practices including applying 

14 copper for disease control.

15 So it was interesting to find that 95 

16 percent of these test results had copper levels 

17 below three quarters of a part per million. And 

18 99 percent were below one and three quarters. So 

19 that just suggests to me that we don't have a 

20 widespread problem with copper accumulation 

21 resulting from these materials.

22 And in my written testimony, I'll 
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1 submit a newsletter article by Ruth Hazzard, 

2 recently retired vegetable specialist at UMass, 

3 who also crunched some data looking at the 

4 background levels across the state of Mass, and 

5 finding that they are only, well they range from 

6 .1 to 8 parts per million.

7 But most of the soils actually could be 

8 perceived as deficient in copper for vegetable 

9 production. And she did some calculations about 

10 how many applications of a standard material like 

11 Nu Cop, fixed copper you'd have to apply. And it 

12 takes quite a few applications to really get to the 

13 level of concern. Thank you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

15 much, Dr. Grubinger.

16 Questions? Francis.

17 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you. What is 

18 your sufficiency level for copper considered to be? 

19 And what's the toxic level considered to be?

20 MR. GRUBINGER: Well, it's a good 

21 question. We don't actually have an established 

22 sufficiency level because a lot of it has to do with 
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1 the crop and the soil pH. So mostly we compare it 

2 to background levels and try and get production 

3 fields sort of at least up to the average background 

4 that we find. But it's not a precise 

5 recommendation.

6 And the toxicity level, we don't 

7 actually have an established toxicity level. And 

8 my understanding is EPA doesn't either. I've 

9 looked at New York; it's astronomically large. 

10 It's for a residential -- where you would not be 

11 allowed to have a residential habitation, it's like 

12 200 parts per million.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other questions. 

14 Yes, Zea.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Hi. Vern, thank 

16 you for your testimony. Two questions, the simple 

17 one is, is there a link to that data or your 

18 conclusions that you could provide to Michelle, 

19 where we can see it on the internet?

20 MR. GRUBINGER: Yes.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: And then secondly, 

22 a number of people have suggested additional 
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1 annotations to help limit any abuse of copper that 

2 might be occurring.

3 Is there any value you think in an 

4 additional annotation such as a maximum amount that 

5 could be applied per year, or the one of not 

6 allowing a crop, the harvesting crop to turn color 

7 because of copper, or any other annotation you 

8 think would be helpful? Or do you think it's 

9 working okay the way it is with the accumulation 

10 restriction?

11 MR. GRUBINGER: I'd be concerned about 

12 the first option of an annual limitation because 

13 sometimes the pressure is extraordinary. A couple 

14 of years ago we had late blight infested seedlings 

15 brought into the region.

16 And we had outbreaks happening you know 

17 months before it was typical. So now you've got 

18 a long season of control, which was really the 

19 exception to the rule. So it would create problems 

20 in a year like that.

21 Maybe you know an average over many 

22 years would make more sense, a five or ten year 
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1 period. And certainly requiring monitoring of the 

2 soil to see if there's a significant change.

3 The issue of it on the fruit, I mean with 

4 potatoes, not such a big deal. I think with a lot 

5 of tomato growers are already going in that 

6 direction if they don't want to have to be washing 

7 off product. But that would get into, I guess if 

8 it's just coloring, that would probably work. But 

9 I wouldn't want it to be any fruit present would 

10 be the ban.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other questions for 

12 Dr. Grubinger?

13 (No audible response)

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So you're going to 

15 submit the rest of -- all those materials so that 

16 we can get access to them?

17 MR. GRUBINGER: Yes.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, that would be 

19 great. Articulate as ever, fabulous, thank you 

20 very much, Vern.

21 I should comment to everybody that of 

22 course Harold has been online right from the very 
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1 beginning. He was online before most people were 

2 here in the room, so he's listening in. Even 

3 though we can't physically see him. And when he 

4 has a question, as yesterday, he'll let Michelle 

5 know and we can help him to ask questions.

6 Unfortunately, he can't always; is the 

7 connection good this morning? Yes, okay good.

8 Okay, the next speaker is Greg 

9 Jackmauh, and he'll be followed by Kate 

10 Duesterberg.

11 MR. JACKMAUH: Good morning. My name 

12 is Gregory Jackmauh, and I am a resident of Barnet, 

13 Vermont and live in pasture-based intensive 

14 grazing dairy farm that has been certified since 

15 2003. I graduated from Harvard college with an 

16 Honors degree in Biology. And I'm a member of the 

17 Cornucopia Institute.

18 My premise is simple: the word organic 

19 has a meaning that has existed long before the USDA 

20 began to consider the term. In my 1924 addition 

21 of Webster's New International Dictionary, it says 

22 organic means, acting as an instrument of nature 
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1 and forming a complex self-determined unity.

2 To me and to many others here today and 

3 watching from a distance, this definition is quite 

4 easily understood. Organic means a naturally 

5 occurring relationship between land, plant, 

6 microorganism, and animal that is harmoniously in 

7 balance and self-sustaining.

8 Modern agricultural processes have 

9 gotten away from following an organic model 

10 throughout the decades and centuries. And there 

11 are those of us who passionately feel that 

12 returning to an organic approach to agriculture is 

13 a critical step to stabilizing our environment and 

14 our planet.

15 The Cornucopia Institute on behalf of 

16 organic stakeholders has been documenting flagrant 

17 fraudulent activity on factory farms producing so 

18 called organic meat, milk, and eggs. These 

19 factory farms are allowed to operate with USDA 

20 organic certification even though their practices 

21 in no way resemble the definition of the word 

22 organic.
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1 These farms damage the reputation of my 

2 organic farm and hurt its bottom line. No amount 

3 of imagination could picture these factory farms 

4 to resemble a system forming a complex 

5 self-determined unity. The practices of 

6 monoculture and feedlot concentration necessary to 

7 sustain these factory farms result in serious 

8 environmental degradation, just the opposite of 

9 the intended purpose of organic farming.

10 The USDA should not be in the business 

11 of deciding that Daniel Webster had it wrong. They 

12 should not be in the business of fighting with 

13 sectors of the population over the definition of 

14 a word that already has a clear meaning.

15 It's pretty simple. If your 

16 agricultural product is not the output of a 

17 sustainable symbiotic biological relationship 

18 with the land, then it cannot be labeled organic. 

19 It might be natural or anything else we all agree 

20 we want to call it.

21 I think a lot of time and a great deal 

22 of confusion and subterfuge has gone into the 
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1 organic debate. And not surprisingly, always to

2 the detriment of those who most easily understand 

3 the definition of organic and believe in its value 

4 toward making us healthier and this planet more 

5 habitable for all living things.

6 I ask that you turn back the clock and 

7 return to the simple definition of organic and then 

8 go to work to decertify those that are clearly not 

9 deserving of the organic label. Thank you.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

11 Questions?

12 (No audible response)

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

14 much. Next speaker is Kate Duesterberg, and 

15 she'll be followed by Christie Badger.

16 MS. DUESTERBERG: Good morning. 

17 Thank you, Dr. Richardson and to the entire 

18 committee for the opportunity to provide comment.

19 My name is Kate Duesterberg and I'm the 

20 co-manager of Cedar Circle Farm in East Thetford, 

21 Vermont. My husband Will Allen and I took over the 

22 management of Cedar Circle 15 years ago. We've 
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1 been certified organic through BOF since 2003.

2 Ours is a community farm with a social 

3 mission. Our main focus now and into the future 

4 is to place regenerative agriculture clearly in the 

5 minds of the public as the hope for the future in 

6 terms of reversing the disastrous trajectory of 

7 climate catastrophe that is due in no small part 

8 to industrial farming systems.

9 We believe that regenerative farming 

10 practiced on a massive scale can sequester enough 

11 carbon worldwide to actually reverse climate 

12 change. This is a movement that is growing 

13 rapidly. For example, we attended a workshop on 

14 Sunday organized by NOFA Mass whose aim was to teach 

15 farmers how to make a transition to no-till organic 

16 vegetable production. The interest in this topic 

17 was clear by the fact that there were over 80 

18 farmers present, young and not so young.

19 My hope today is to encourage you as the 

20 implementers of the federal program originally 

21 established to encourage more and better organic 

22 farming in the U.S., to take a leadership role in 
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1 helping farmers to move toward more regenerative 

2 farming practices that can sequester carbon.

3 You are well aware that Vermont was the 

4 first state to pass a law to label GMOs in processed 

5 food products. Even though that law is still tied 

6 up in the courts, it is an example of how a group 

7 of dedicated farmers and conscious consumers can 

8 make a difference at the policy level.

9 Organic farmers firmly believe that the 

10 original decision of the Organic Foods Production 

11 Act to eliminate GMOs from the defined organic 

12 standards was the right decision. We are 

13 committed to organic farming practices that use the 

14 biology of the sun and the soil to produce quality 

15 crops.

16 However, we see in the proposal for this 

17 week's NOSB discussion entitled Prevention 

18 Strategy for Excluded Methods that organic farmers 

19 are expected to shoulder the entire burden for 

20 preventing cross contamination from their 

21 neighbors who are using GMOs.

22 USDA estimates that 96 percent of the 
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1 corn crop in Vermont is genetically modified. 

2 Corn is grown on 92,000 acres in Vermont out of a 

3 total of 120,000 tillable acres across the state. 

4 So it is likely that many of the organic farmers 

5 are in close proximity to GMO crops.

6 Under the proposed rules they will need 

7 to make sure that the timing of their sweet corn, 

8 when their sweet corn tassels and pollinate does 

9 not coincide with the time that their neighbors GMO 

10 corn tassels and pollinates.

11 In addition, we are in a crisis in our 

12 country with bees suffering from colony collapse, 

13 which many researchers have determined is related 

14 the neonicotinoid seed treatments that are on every

15 kernel of GMO corn seed.

16 How can we possibly prevent our bees 

17 from collecting pollen from our neighbors fields, 

18 especially when neither their neighbors, nor the 

19 Vermont Agency of Agriculture required to share the 

20 information about what kinds of GMO crops are 

21 planted and what their pollination dates are?

22 The point is that the idea of organic 
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1 farmers having to take on the responsibility of 

2 preventing cross-contamination makes no sense. 

3 The burden should most clearly be on the polluter. 

4 Thank you for your consideration.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

6 much, Kate.

7 MS. DUESTERBERG: Thank you.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are there questions 

9 for Kate on any of these topics?

10 Yes, Colehour.

11 MR. BONDERA: Thank you, Kate, for your 

12 testimony. My question goes back to the beginning 

13 of what you were talking about, and I would like 

14 for you to expand a little bit on it in terms of 

15 regenerative farming is what you were referring to. 

16 And I'd like you to expand at least briefly on your 

17 perspective of how regenerative farming is 

18 associated with organic agriculture? Thank you.

19 MS. DUESTERBERG: A lot of people are 

20 thinking that regenerative farming practices are 

21 more than just your standard organic practices, 

22 that regenerative practices have more to do with 
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1 really building up the soil fertility, and rather 

2 than trying to use for example tillage methods to 

3 control weeds, you use better compost adding to the 

4 soil to make your soil life more prolific. So that 

5 that takes care of your weeds and your pests more

6 effectively.

7 And some of the things that we would 

8 prohibit under the organic standards, better --

9 building up the better soil life, or some of the 

10 restrictions on compost applications for example, 

11 the temperature requirements and so on, go to the 

12 fact that then the compost has less soil life in 

13 it than it would if it were lying it earlier.

14 So there are some restrictions within 

15 the USDA Organic Standard systems that prevent more 

16 regenerative practices from gaining life.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

18 much. Other questions? Okay, thank you.

19 The next speaker is Christie Badger, 

20 and she'll be followed by Stephanie Rodriguez 

21 Hidalgo.

22 MS. BADGER: Good morning. My name is 
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1 Christie Badger, and I'm speaking today on behalf 

2 of the National Organic Coalition. Thank you for 

3 the opportunity to be a part of this exciting 

4 process, and thank you for the important work that 

5 you do to further strengthen the organic label.

6 NOC appreciates how important the 

7 policy and procedure manual is, and we're glad that 

8 the NOSB has taken back control of what is in the 

9 PPM. We believe in the substantial transparency 

10 that the FACA process provides.

11 We have major concerns about the 

12 changes in the PPM that seem to shift to the more 

13 limited FOIA based process for providing public 

14 access to NOSB documents and communications. 

15 Instead of using the FACA procedures currently in 

16 place.

17 We wish we could have understood the 

18 issues and changes better and would respectfully 

19 request that a document that shows changes, both 

20 additions and deletions, is put forward. In 

21 addition, we would request that changes are 

22 accompanied by an explanation as to why those 
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1 changes are being made. We strongly believe that 

2 this is the only way to maintain transparency.

3 Regarding conflict of interest, NOC 

4 recommends that the USDA and NOP require 

5 subcontractors and the subcontracting agency they 

6 represent, as applicable to disclose interests and 

7 sign a COI form prior to signing a contract.

8 We further recommend listing the name 

9 of the author writing the TR or TAP and the 

10 subcontracting agency they represent on the front 

11 page of the report. This affords organic 

12 stakeholders full transparency when reading the 

13 reviews.

14 NOC concurs with the crops subcommittee 

15 that the annotation for micronutrients should 

16 include other methods to determine deficiencies in 

17 addition to soil testing.

18 In addition, we feel that the 

19 application of synthetic micronutrients should be 

20 used to address acute short-term fertility 

21 imbalances in conjunction with organic practices 

22 to correct deficiencies, such as crop rotation, 
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1 cover cropping, and adjusting the soil pH.

2 With these points in mind, we submit 

3 relisting the material but modifying -- we support 

4 relisting the material but modifying its 

5 annotation to read, "Deficiencies must be 

6 documented through verifiable site-specific 

7 methods and accompanied with a plan for future 

8 correction of the deficiency."

9 In order to eliminate the incentive to 

10 convert native ecosystems into organic crop 

11 production, NOC requests that the NOSB put the 

12 issue on their work plan and collaborate with a team 

13 of conservation experts to develop a 

14 recommendation to the NOP for a rule change. Until 

15 such time that a rule can be put into place, NOC 

16 requests that the NOSB recommend that the NOP 

17 issues guidance on this issue.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

19 for your comments. And questions from the Board?

20 Yes, Colehour.

21 MR. BONDERA: Hello. Thank you for 

22 your testimony. I just want to verify two things 
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1 you said. And I think I got them both right in my 

2 notes, but you were requesting that the modified 

3 PPM go back -- be brought back and get revised in 

4 a way that you can see the changes that were made 

5 and why they were made. And then it gets put forth 

6 because it was put forth for review? Is that 

7 accurate?

8 MS. BADGER: Yes.

9 MR. BONDERA: And my second question I 

10 think should be as simple, which is that according 

11 to what was said earlier in this meeting, the 

12 contracting entity's name is listed on TRs. Is 

13 that correct? I think that's what Jean said 

14 yesterday. But you're requesting that as well, 

15 the actual author -- the actual person doing the 

16 work's name is included in what's presented so that 

17 that information is also available?

18 MS. BADGER: Yes.

19 MR. BONDERA: Is that -- thank you.

20 MS. BADGER: Thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

22 for your comments.
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1 

2 MS. BADGER: Thank you.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

4 Stephanie Rodriguez Hidalgo, followed by Andy 

5 Jones.

6 MS. RODRIQUEZ HIDALGO: Good morning. 

7 My name is Stephanie Rodriquez. I am from Costa 

8 Rica. And I work for the National Chamber of 

9 Producers and Exporters of Pineapple. Over 80 

10 percent of the volume of Costa Rica's conventional 

11 and organic pineapple production and exports are 

12 members of our chambers. Members range from small 

13 to large growers. Next.

14 Pineapple production in Costa Rica is 

15 divided in three regions, Northern, Atlantic, and 

16 Pacific. Next.

17 I am here today to support the continued 

18 use of ethylene. Why should ethylene remain on the 

19 national list? Natural methods in forcing the 

20 pineapple to flower are known, but where condition 

21 and quantity of productions do not permit these 

22 methods to be an available solution in our country.
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1 The reason for flowering induction is 

2 that production happens at once. Without this 

3 condition, growing pineapples would never be a 

4 profitable business. And maybe too, a grower 

5 cannot estimate dates to sell his production, and 

6 maybe too they cannot fulfill the demands.

7 And maybe too we cannot give a specific 

8 date for harvesting otherwise. We wilt harvest 

9 the fruit every week, which increases cost. The 

10 known inclusion in the national list will 

11 strengthen organic production, employment, and 

12 family with first of many producers. Next.

13 At our chambers, we've met with people 

14 from the sector, and they came up with the following 

15 petition: "The undersigned hereby declare a 

16 negative position with respect to the pending 

17 motion unto the National Organic Standards Board 

18 which would eliminate ethylene from the National 

19 List.

20 We consider this material to be 

21 critical for the production of Costa Rican organic 

22 pineapples, and the non-inclusion in the National 
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1 List would put our production, employment, and 

2 family well-being in danger.

3 We authorize that our names and 

4 petition be relayed to National Organic Standards 

5 Board through the public consultation process, and 

6 we strongly advocate for a negative vote and that 

7 ethylene remain on the National List as a material 

8 for use in floral induction for the cultivation of 

9 organic pineapples."

10 The signed petition and the evidence of 

11 the meeting was sent attached to the comments many 

12 days ago. I am here today to personally hand you 

13 the original petition signed by the organic 

14 pineapple industry representatives convened by the 

15 government of Costa Rica in late September. Next 

16 please.

17 Representatives of the different types 

18 of organizations in the sector who sign are 

19 cooperative and growers associations, and small, 

20 medium and large growers, supporters of organic 

21 pineapple, organic certification, intensive 

22 producers of organic pineapple, government 
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1 representative, and industry organizations.

2 Thanks for your attention.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

4 much. Are there questions for Stephanie? 

5 Questions? Yes, Harold has a question.

6 MS. ARSENAULT: And Jean, just so you 

7 know. Stephanie may have an interpreter for some 

8 of the questions.

9 MEMBER AUSTIN: Stephanie, thank you 

10 for coming and presenting to us today. Your 

11 information, that is invaluable while we make our 

12 decisions.

13 My question for you is what can we do 

14 different to better communicate to the organic 

15 stakeholders so that we don't have a near miss such 

16 as what we're experiencing with the ethylene where 

17 we only have five comments for the first public 

18 comment period and we've had 43 plus a lot of oral 

19 testimonies today? What can we do different?

20 MS. RODRIQUEZ HIDALGO: I'm going to 

21 answer is Spanish, maybe.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We should note for 
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1 the record that Stephanie would request some 

2 assistance with translation. And Chair allows 

3 this of course.

4 INTERPRETER: That's a very good 

5 question, a matter of attending, since we didn't 

6 know that the first hearings were held this year. 

7 As a Chamber, she thought that those -- this kind 

8 of process was going to be held until next year.

9 INTERPRETER: She says yes, that we 

10 have to find a more direct means of communication, 

11 I guess, growers, the government of Costa Rica and 

12 the NOSB. So we can make more fluent 

13 communication. Since it's -- we have to follow up 

14 the official page of the NOSB.

15 INTERPRETER: You might think that the 

16 certification and all the regulations are for the 

17 U.S. organic market. But since we are the growers 

18 and exporters, we should be well-communicated 

19 about all the decisions because that affects the 

20 production.

21 This is because 90 percent of all the 

22 Costa Rican organic production comes to the U.S. 
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1 markets. So we're open to hearing another way of 

2 improving the communication.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

4 Stephanie. Sorry, Calvin, you have a question?

5 MEMBER WALKER: I do. One option 

6 would be, we have a NOSB Organic Insider, would that 

7 be a means that they could connect with different 

8 activities of NOP and NOSB?

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Let me ask Miles 

10 McEvoy to make a comment on the question that was 

11 posed also by Calvin?

12 MR. McEVOY: Yes, we have the USDA 

13 Organic Insider that we encourage the folks in 

14 Costa Rica to sign up for. It's in English, but 

15 if any of you get it --

16 INTERPRETER: Okay.

17 MR. McEVOY: It's an email 

18 communication that provides updates on what is 

19 happening on organic activities in the United 

20 States.

21 INTERPRETER: Yes, we're going to get 

22 registered.
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1 MR. McEVOY: Yes, we'll just post it in 

2 español también. 

3 (Foreign language spoken).

4 I'll post it in español.

5 INTERPRETER: For the first time, 

6 well, the first review of the beginning of this 

7 year, not even the Costa Rican government and the 

8 people that are in service knew about this.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Yes.

10 MEMBER WALKER: You mentioned that you 

11 had a petition that you would like to provide to 

12 the Board?

13 MS. RODRIQUEZ HIDALGO: Yes, I have 

14 that, a signed petition here I'm going to give for 

15 Michelle.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

17 Stephanie. And thank you also for the 

18 translation.

19 The next speaker is Andy Jones from 

20 Burlington, and he'll be followed by Charlotte 

21 Vallaeys. Welcome, Andy. Nice to see you.

22 MR. JONES: Thank you. And I want to 
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1 thank Madame Chairwoman and the rest of the Board 

2 for coming to Vermont.

3 My name is Andy Jones. I am an organic 

4 vegetable grower from Burlington, Vermont. We do

5 about 25 acres of certified organic produce and 

6 have been in business since 1990. And I want to 

7 talk basically today about two general topics.

8 And the first is relating to the use of 

9 hydroponics or not, in organic production. And I 

10 want to say I support the 2010 recommendation of 

11 the Board to prohibit the use of hydroponics in 

12 organic production.

13 I think at its roots, this is a question 

14 of integrity and credibility for the National 

15 Organic Program. Our core business is CSA. And 

16 over the course of the last 25 years, we've had 

17 thousands and thousands of people out to the farm.

18 And people always ask, whether it's our 

19 CSA members who are there every week or whether it's 

20 students from the University of Vermont or various 

21 other groups coming through the farm, we're in a 

22 public location and we get a lot of visitors, and 
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1 people say well what's the difference between 

2 organic farming? And what do you focus on? And 

3 why is organic farming important?

4 And I always start with the soil. And 

5 I think to take soil out of organic production in 

6 any fashion, is really asking for trouble and 

7 undermining the credibility of the overall word, 

8 organic. So I would support as I said earlier, the 

9 recommendation of the Board and also ask the NOP 

10 to establish a moratorium on further certification 

11 of hydroponic operations.

12 I also wanted to speak briefly today to 

13 the use or the issue surrounding bio-based, 

14 biodegradable mulches, which I know the Board has 

15 looked at in some degree.

16 I think there isn't a perfect solution, 

17 but I would ask that the NOP to consider figuring 

18 out a way to allow these for use in organic 

19 production. As I understand it, the roadblock at 

20 this point is that the bio-based component of those 

21 mulches is 20 to 25 percent of the various different 

22 brands that are on the market.
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1 I think it would be useful to think 

2 about having some kind of ratcheting standard where 

3 that would be acceptable at this point. And then 

4 at five years, instead of relisting, there would 

5 be another 35 or 50 percent standard. Because it's 

6 not a question of is that a great material, but it's 

7 a question of what the alternatives are.

8 And thousands and thousands of tons of 

9 disposable polyethylene mulches that are in use and 

10 that are removed from the field and that are then 

11 put into a landfill, and yet small fragments of them 

12 remain on all the farms. Even those who are 

13 conscientious in removing them. So I would hope 

14 the Board could consider that at the appropriate 

15 time. Thank you.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

17 much, Andy.

18 Questions for Andy? Yes, Nick.

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: Do you have any 

20 specific rationale or information that would go 

21 along with your suggestion that the bio-based 

22 component be increased over time? And do you have 
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1 any indication the industry could meet that? Do 

2 you have any indication of whether or not that could 

3 be secured from non-GMO sources, et cetera?

4 MR. JONES: I don't. I know that part 

5 of the activity of the NOP has been to try to set 

6 standards that drive the development of certain 

7 materials within -- and so I would hope -- I know 

8 that the science may be challenging at this point, 

9 but I think if there's a maybe if there's a carrot 

10 farther down the road, that could act as an 

11 incentive for industry.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

14 much, Andy. Very appreciated.

15 The next speaker is Charlotte Vallaeys, 

16 and she'll be followed by Will Allen.

17 MS. VALLAEYS: Good morning. My name 

18 is Charlotte Vallaeys, and I'm the Senior Policy 

19 Analyst with the Consumer Reports Food Safety and 

20 Sustainability Center.

21 We believe that the organic label 

22 offers consumers a meaningful way to choose foods 
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1 produced in a safer and more sustainable food 

2 system. Consumers have every right to expect that 

3 organic foods contain only ingredients that are 

4 either organically produced or approved after 

5 careful review to the criteria in the law and 

6 regulations.

7 However, there are many examples of 

8 organic foods on market shelves today that contain 

9 synthetic ingredients that are not on the national 

10 list or do not meet the criteria.

11 The New York Times reported two weeks 

12 ago, on organic infant formula and the synthetic 

13 additives that were specifically rejected by you, 

14 the NOSB, in the spring of 2012. As my colleague, 

15 Dr. Rangan mentioned yesterday, NOP needs to take 

16 action on this.

17 But NOSB also has an opportunity to 

18 address this problem at this meeting by removing 

19 the very problematic nutrients, vitamins, and 

20 minerals listing. Only individual nutrients that 

21 are required by FDA to be in the food, meaning they 

22 are essential to organic handling, should be 
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1 allowed.

2 On ancillary substances, the handling 

3 subcommittee has taken a step in the right 

4 direction with improved transparency regarding 

5 ingredients and processing aids that are used to 

6 make organic processed foods.

7 Unfortunately, the handling 

8 subcommittee appears to grant a blanket approval 

9 to all substances currently in use. And we 

10 continue to urge full review according to criteria 

11 of all ingredients that end up in organic foods.

12 Fish oil fails to meet the criteria for 

13 inclusion on the national list because it is not 

14 essential to organic handling. There is no need 

15 for fish in the production of organic milk, organic 

16 yogurt, organic gummy bears, or any other food that 

17 contains it.

18 Since the only reason to add it is for 

19 alleged health benefits, it's important to note 

20 that two recent meta-analysis studies have 

21 concluded there is no association between fish oil 

22 supplementation and health benefits.
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1 When celery powder was petitioned in 

2 2007, the petitioner wrote, celery powder cures 

3 meat without relying on synthetic nitrates and 

4 nitrites. This ancient technology dates back 

5 thousands of years. And yet for thousands of 

6 years, celery would have been grown using organic 

7 methods without synthetic fertilizers.

8 The conversation we've had with one 

9 curing expert suggests that higher nitrate levels 

10 in one celery powder versus another, would be due 

11 to fertilizers. And we know synthetic fertilizers 

12 can drive up nitrate levels in vegetables. So that 

13 would be a secondary need for prohibitive 

14 substance, and we don't think that's right.

15 Further concentrations for curing 

16 appear to vary tremendously depending on the 

17 application. More intelligence is needed so an 

18 informed decision can be made.

19 And finally, phosphates, we appreciate 

20 the request for a new TR and urge you to table the 

21 vote until the TR is available. Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 
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1 much, Charlotte. Questions for Charlotte? Yes, 

2 Zea.

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, 

4 Charlotte. What would you think about allowing 

5 nutrient vitamins and minerals only for food in the 

6 made with organic category? Do you think that that 

7 is something consumers would understand, that it 

8 would be made with organic. And then would use 

9 additional synthetic nutrients?

10 MS. VALLAEYS: We already have a lot of 

11 work on our hands at Consumer Reports explaining 

12 the difference between organic, made with organic, 

13 100 organic. And we do believe a consistent 

14 standard is what we're after.

15 And so considering that there are 

16 really not that many individual nutrients that 

17 should be reviewed and added to the national list 

18 in order to meet the consistent standard of if it 

19 essentially can be an organic food, we actually 

20 think that the way to go forward is to remove the 

21 listing for everything including made with 

22 organic. And just petition the individual 
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1 nutrients that are required by FDA to be included.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other 

3 questions?

4 (No audible response)

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank you 

6 very much, Charlotte.

7 The next speaker is Will Allen, and he 

8 will be followed by Stuart Follen.

9 MR. ALLEN: Thanks a lot for letting me 

10 speak. And thanks for having your meeting in 

11 Vermont. My name is Dr. Will Allen; I've been an 

12 organic farmer for 47 years, and I've farmed in 

13 several counties in California and Oregon.

14 I served on the Board of CCOF and helped 

15 write their first Grower's Handbook. I founded 

16 the Sustainable Cotton Project and served as its 

17 Executive and Program Director for 13 years. With 

18 my wife Kate and several assistants, I wrote "The 

19 War on Bugs" book.

20 Since 2000, I've helped co-manage Cedar 

21 Circle Farm, a 45 acre vegetable, fruit, melon, and 

22 flower farm in East Thetford, Vermont on the 
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1 Connecticut River.

2 Like my wife, Kate Duesterburg, I am 

3 concerned about the cohabitation of organic with 

4 chemical GMO farming. And the proposals that 

5 organic growers are responsible for dealing with 

6 what our neighbors grow and broadcast into the 

7 environment.

8 Unfortunately, neither the Vermont 

9 Agency of Agriculture Food and Markets, nor GMO 

10 chemical farm neighbors are required to assist 

11 organic growers in their effort to determine when 

12 GMO corn or other GMO plants pollinate.

13 Without this data, it's hard to see how 

14 an organic farmer could avoid their bees bringing 

15 back GMO corn pollen to their hives or to their 

16 organic corn fields. While cow corn is our only 

17 GMO contaminator in Vermont, GMO sweet corn, 

18 squash, and papayas are problems along with cow 

19 corn in other states.

20 This is an example of the victim being 

21 required to not only tolerate but ameliorate 

22 actions of a trespasser. Also like my 
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1 partner/wife, I'm concerned about upgrading 

2 organic land management practices.

3 We are convinced that organic and 

4 bio-dynamic farming strategies could have a 

5 transformational impact on the excess carbon in the 

6 atmosphere and the oceans.

7 Currently food and agriculture 

8 worldwide and forest destruction for oil 

9 production are responsible for at least 50 percent 

10 of the greenhouse gases that are polluting both the 

11 atmosphere and the oceans.

12 At the same time, our agricultural 

13 soils are our largest planetary safe for carbon. 

14 But because of bad land management strategies for 

15 the last 160 years, those soils have lost 70 percent 

16 of their carbon.

17 While the soil carbon loss is an 

18 international tragedy, it also provides an 

19 opportunity for reversing climate change and 

20 provides a sink currently at about 30 percent 

21 capacity, where excess atmospheric and oceanic 

22 carbon can be sequestered through photosynthesis.
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1 GMO and chemical agriculture 

2 strategies are incapable of significantly 

3 increasing soil organic matter because synthetic 

4 nitrogen-related bacteria consume most of the soil 

5 organic matter, which is 58 percent carbon, and 

6 return the carbon to the atmosphere.

7 Along with toxic pesticides, synthetic 

8 nitrogen fertilizers also kill soil microorganisms 

9 and earth worms. Conversely, organic and 

10 biodynamic systems regenerate soil life with 

11 constant photosynthesis which increases soil 

12 organic matter and provides sugary saccharides 

13 exudates that feed the microorganisms and 

14 sequester carbon.

15 While we eliminated our chemical 

16 dependencies in the 1960s, we continue to use the 

17 soil disturbance strategies of our families and 

18 neighbors. We are currently in the process of 

19 altering our management strategies in moving 

20 toward less and no-tillage so that we can be more 

21 regenerative as farmers and sequester more carbon.

22 Organic --
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Will, are you about 

2 done?

3 MR. ALLEN: -- and biodynamic farmers 

4 have the greatest potential to reverse climate 

5 change. We feel that the National Organics 

6 Standards Board should advocate for the inclusion 

7 of more regenerative carbon sequester strategies 

8 as part of its advisories for growers and ranchers. 

9 It should also advocate for carbon credits for 

10 those organic members who can demonstrate an 

11 increase in soil organic matter and soil carbon. 

12 Thanks a lot.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Dr. 

14 Allen. Questions for Will? Yes, Zea.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, Will. 

16 As you can imagine, all of us sitting up here are 

17 very concerned about GMOs, contamination in 

18 organic. Considering our limited abilities to get 

19 things done, what would you suggest that we do to 

20 continue to fight against GMOs?

21 MR. ALLEN: Well, I think we have to 

22 have a full court press. Like what we try to do 
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1 in Vermont is pass a labeling law, which we think 

2 will have you know, in the long run, it inhibits 

3 -- or the effect on the growth of the GMO crops.

4 You know for many of us, we're 

5 surrounded by GMO growers and so -- and even though 

6 our bees are not you know suffering from colony 

7 collapse, we find that the bees actually are very 

8 selective in where they go.

9 They don't seem to fly north; they seem 

10 to stay on our farm and fly south where we farm you 

11 know three blocks of land. So we haven't seen any 

12 problems with our bees, but I think that you know 

13 putting all the pressure on organic farmers to deal 

14 with this issue when it's really a trespass issue.

15 I think, you know -- I would hope that 

16 the Organic Standards Board would petition the USDA 

17 to try to help farmers that are trapped in those 

18 situations like we are. For a long time, we were 

19 completely surrounded GMO corn.

20 And so we couldn't even grow some of our 

21 heirloom corns because we knew that they would 

22 pollinate and silk at the same time that the GMO 
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1 corns did. So we had to -- but that meant that we 

2 had to know what the corns were next door, and right 

3 now you can't even find that out.

4 We found out just by finally calling 

5 Pollan Seed and finding out what seeds the growers 

6 in the state were growing. I mean it's probably 

7 a bigger problem in California than it is here. 

8 And a bigger problem in those states where there's 

9 a lot more GMOs.

10 But right now, it's almost 100 percent 

11 of corn in Vermont that is GMO. In fact, in 2013 

12 it was 103 percent because people replanted. So 

13 I mean it's a serious problem that we have to deal 

14 with, and it seems like it's all put on our table 

15 and nobody else has to deal with this.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Other 

17 questions for Will? Thanks very much. Very

18 articulate, much appreciated.

19 The next speaker is Stuart Follen, and 

20 he'll be followed by Robin Hadlock Seeley.

21 MR. FOLLEN: Good morning, my name is 

22 Stuart Follen. And I am Managing Director of 
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1 Central American Produce Association or CAPA, 

2 which is a pineapple producer located in the 

3 northern part of Costa Rica. I believe I am the 

4 last pineapple guy you're going to have to talk to 

5 this week, so everybody just bear with me.

6 Having said that, and it's been beat to 

7 death here in the last day, I do feel the need to 

8 at least mention ethylene usage in regulating the 

9 flowering of pineapple. And again, I don't want 

10 to beat this into the ground but I flew 3,000 miles 

11 to get here for these three minutes.

12 My colleagues from Costa Rica I think 

13 have done an admiral job of explaining the problem 

14 over and over again, with eliminating ethylene as 

15 a flowering agent.

16 And so I don't want to really beat that 

17 but, and this committee itself in previous 

18 testimony has stated that there were no human 

19 health or environmental concerns brought to the 

20 subcommittee, or to the full Board's attention. 

21 And the issues previously raised were found to be 

22 minimal or of no concern.
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1 So when you look at the ethylene issue, 

2 I would you know, the result of your vote will 

3 determine whether the organic pineapple industry 

4 lives or dies in Costa Rica, or anywhere in the 

5 world actually.

6 So I encourage you to demonstrate good 

7 judgment and common sense when you're making your 

8 decision because what you do is going to change 

9 everybody's lives. So we either continue to build 

10 the program or we close it down.

11 There are a number of questions given 

12 by this panel that were not answered to my 

13 colleagues in Costa Rica yesterday. And I might 

14 be able to answer a few of them.

15 The question was asked time and again, 

16 why didn't the pineapple industry respond to the 

17 first round of comment? Nobody in our group, and 

18 you have met 98 percent of the people in the organic 

19 pineapple industry in Costa Rica right now that are 

20 here, we didn't know about it.

21 As much as we're organic, we didn't know 

22 about this. It wasn't until I was contacted a few 
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1 weeks ago, maybe a month ago, September I believe, 

2 by Lynn Coody because one of our customers buys 

3 pineapple from us and she worked with them.

4 And she got a hold of us and said, do 

5 you know anything about this? I said, what are you 

6 talking about? And anyway, so that got the ball 

7 rolling from here. I live in Portland, from 

8 Portland to Costa Rica. We mobilized fairly 

9 quickly, and we got on planes and got over here.

10 Thank you.

11 The second question you said, somebody 

12 asked how much is organic pineapple comes, it's 98 

13 percent from Costa Rica. Okay.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions? Yes, 

15 Tracy.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you for 

17 coming. Thank you for being here. Again, I want 

18 to reiterate my standing yesterday, that it's 

19 important that we do understand, that these are 

20 real people with real livelihoods at stake.

21 And we've asked this in various 

22 versions around the table with all the other 
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1 growers, what can we do to make sure you guys have 

2 the information you need? Since it has been 

3 pointed out to us, you're the primary supplier and 

4 we're the recipients of something like 90 percent 

5 of the exports from your country?

6 MR. FOLLEN: Well, it became obvious we 

7 had a problem and I kind of took it upon myself with 

8 talking to Lynn, that I would stay in close contact 

9 and she told me how to stay in touch with this 

10 organization. So in the future, this won't 

11 happen.

12 You know when you're dealing, the rest 

13 of the groups from Costa Rica primarily, Dole has 

14 an office here and we have an office here, but 

15 nobody else has an office here. So I really, you 

16 know someone's got to take the lead here, and so 

17 in my view I'm going to do it. Just for our company 

18 and you know pass that information down so it 

19 doesn't get lost in translation so to speak.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, there's a 

21 question from Harold.

22 MEMBER AUSTIN: Well I think Tracy 
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1 asked my question, and we got that answered. I 

2 would just like to point out though, that I want 

3 to thank you for helping us solve a problem that 

4 we've dealt with for four years since I've been on 

5 here. And that's a matter of how many minutes to 

6 allow the speakers. We now know, one minute per 

7 every thousand miles traveled.

8 (Laughter)

9 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you for taking 

10 the time to come here.

11 MR. FOLLEN: Thank you.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Harold. 

13 Any other questions? Great, thank you very much, 

14 much appreciated comments and for coming here.

15 The next speaker is Robin Hadlock 

16 Seeley, and he'll be followed by Nicholas Gardner.

17 MS. HADLOCK SEELEY: Good morning. I 

18 appreciate the opportunity to provide public 

19 comment to the NOSB today. I am Dr. Robin Hadlock 

20 Seeley, a marine ecologist at the Shoals Marine 

21 Laboratory in Maine. And a senior research 

22 associate at Cornell University, where one of my 
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1 two research foci is the sustainability of seaweed 

2 harvest in Maine.

3 My comments address the Sunset Review 

4 of aquatic plant extracts. The crop subcommittee 

5 proposes removal of aquatic plant extracts from the 

6 National List based on CFR 205.600(b)(2) criteria 

7 which include, "The substance's manufacture, use, 

8 and disposal do not have adverse effects on the 

9 environment."

10 These extracts have no place on the 

11 National List based on information from the last 

12 five to ten years which renders the technical 

13 report of 2006 on which prior listing decisions 

14 were based obsolete. The technical advisory panel 

15 document is even older, 20 years old.

16 Aquatic plant extracts are derived in 

17 large part from the seaweed species, Ascophyllum 

18 nodosum, also known as Rockweed, which you see on 

19 the slide. The committee materials for today's 

20 meeting state that these extracts are mostly 

21 derived from kelp. And that is incorrect. I 

22 believe they're mostly derived from Ascophyllum 
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1 nodosum, which is a Rockweed, and not a true kelp.

2 In the technical report from 2006, no 

3 evidence has been found indicating that this 

4 potential over harvest impact is actually 

5 occurring. But the following slides that I want 

6 to show you indicate that over harvest does occur 

7 in Canada and Maine, a major source of Ascophyllum 

8 extracts, altering habitat and changing 

9 biodiversity.

10 So this is the underwater Rockweed 

11 forest, with the fish swimming through it. The 

12 individual plants are like marine trees, and 

13 provide habitat for over 150 different species 

14 including birds that you see on the screen.

15 Thirty five fish species, including 25 

16 species that are commercially harvested, including 

17 juvenile cod which are of grave concern on the 

18 northeast coast now, juvenile pollock, herring, 

19 American eel, and many other species.

20 The Canadian report that was issued in 

21 2013 from the government made clear that the 

22 original fish habitat value of the Ascophyllum beds 
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1 are reduced or lost together when over harvest 

2 occurred.

3 And I have a clip showing -- not going 

4 to show it huh? Well, what the clip would have 

5 shown you had it been able to play, is a diver 

6 swimming down and a transect of an uncut Rockweed 

7 forest, with fish coming through it and the canopy 

8 far overhead. And then going to a machine 

9 harvested transect, which shows the cut seaweed 

10 much shorter, great areas of bare rock. Much less 

11 seaweed density and obviously a compromised 

12 habitat.

13 The Canadian government report also 

14 listed 14 over harvested areas in Nova Scotia and 

15 this was a matter of concern from NOAA from the 

16 Department of Interior, including U.S. Fish and 

17 Wildlife Service and National Parks Service, many 

18 private conservation groups in Maine which wrote 

19 letters to the Maine state government.

20 And finally Dr. Chalker-Scott who was 

21 cited in the 2006 Technical Report on "aquatic 

22 plant extracts", wrote in the same report that was 
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1 cited in that technical report, the marketing of 

2 such products, meaning these extracts, is earth 

3 friendly, and this context should be repugnant to 

4 environmentally conscious consumers. Thank you 

5 very much and I'll be happy to take questions.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

7 much, Dr. Seeley. Questions? Yes, Zea.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you for your 

9 testimony. We're only as good as the information 

10 that is able to come in to us, and we have, we can 

11 request a certain number of new technical reports 

12 each year, but we reached our maximum for leading 

13 up to this meeting.

14 However, I will as Chair of the Crops 

15 Committee, I will be suggesting that we commission 

16 a new TR for this one in the future. My question 

17 is, are there any, your work is mostly in the 

18 Atlantic on the east coast. And I'm wondering if 

19 there has been any survey or worldwide aquatic 

20 plant environments to see if over harvesting 

21 happens in the Pacific, in the Baltic, and the you 

22 know many other regions of the world where various 
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1 seaweeds are harvested for various uses?

2 MS. HADLOCK SEELEY: As I said, I 

3 believe most of these extracts are this one 

4 species, Ascophyllum, which is a north Atlantic 

5 species. It's harvested in the northwest Atlantic 

6 and in the northeast Atlantic. I'm most aware of 

7 what's happening in the northwest Atlantic. It's 

8 also harvested in Scandinavia, Ireland, and yes, 

9 and Scotland.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, because as 

11 you might be aware, we're dealing with sea products 

12 for handling as well. There's kelp, is on the 

13 National List for handling, as well as extracts 

14 such as alginates, carrageenan, and then also we'll 

15 be discussing at this meeting laminarin as a pest 

16 control material.

17 So the whole issue of all of the sea 

18 derived plants is one that we'd like to address in 

19 a comprehensive way, but we have no way of knowing 

20 that, as what you say that Ascophyllum being the 

21 main species in these products is accurate without 

22 surveying the list of all the products available 
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1 to see what's in them. So I'm just wondering if 

2 there are other resources we could turn to 

3 regarding that?

4 MS. HADLOCK SEELEY: I'm mostly 

5 familiar with the Canadian and Maine market. And 

6 that I can state with fair confidence is mostly 

7 Ascophyllum. You said you had other algal 

8 products that you'll be considering. One of my 

9 main concerns with the process at NOSB, is you're 

10 dealing with common names and these species are 

11 tremendously different. They really need to be 

12 identified by their species name and not by the 

13 general name of kelp.

14 Kelp is a common name, and can be 

15 applied to many species incorrectly, I believe. 

16 And when I looked up how FDA handles this, their 

17 regulations list by species each species that they 

18 are talking about for either approval or 

19 disapproval. And I believe that's the standard 

20 that you really need to follow.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 
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1 much, that was very helpful any other questions?

2 Great. Thank you.

3 The next speaker is Nicholas Gardner, 

4 to be followed by Kate Davis.

5 MR. GARDNER: Good morning. My name 

6 is Nicholas Gardner and I'm commenting on behalf 

7 of the International Food Additives Council or 

8 IFAC.

9 IFAC strongly supports the continued 

10 listing of xanthan gum on the National List. 

11 Xanthan is an effective stabilizer, thickener, and 

12 emulsifier. And is particularly important for 

13 suspending ingredients.

14 Xanthan gum is used in a variety of 

15 organic products from baked goods, to dairy 

16 products, and dressing sauces, and condiments. It 

17 is also widely used in foods for populations with 

18 certain allergies and celiac disease.

19 Xanthan functions well under 

20 conditions where other substances would not be 

21 viable, such as a pH or at temperature extremes. 

22 This critical functionality has been noted in the 
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1 comments of other organic stakeholders who 

2 indicate xanthan gum in widely used and cannot be 

3 replaced.

4 Xanthan gum in listed in the code of 

5 federal regulations as an approved food additive 

6 and has consistently been shown to be safe at levels 

7 consumed in food. Claimants to the contrary, 

8 either result from incidents with subpopulations 

9 or from anecdotal reports citing questionable 

10 sources.

11 Because xanthan gum is safe, aligns 

12 with organic principles, and is essential to 

13 organic production while lacking organic 

14 alternatives, IFAC urges that it be relisted.

15 I'll turn now to phosphates. IFAC also 

16 supports the continued listing of calcium 

17 phosphate, phosphoric acid, sodium phosphates, and 

18 potassium phosphate. However, I would like to 

19 focus today on potassium phosphate.

20 While all these phosphates are 

21 essential, environmentally sound, and lack 

22 alternatives, and are compatible with organic 
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1 principles, due to the recommendations you do list 

2 potassium phosphate. I'll focus there.

3 Potassium phosphates provide many 

4 unique functions in dairy foods and beverages due 

5 to their ability to stabilize proteins, promote 

6 emulsification, and to disperse proteins and 

7 favors, particularly in powdered products.

8 Potassium phosphates are also 

9 effective at maintaining pH, which helps to ensure 

10 safety in flavors in products such as yogurts. 

11 They also help in the production of ultra high 

12 temperature dairy products by reducing

13 sedimentation in equipment lines. Lastly, they 

14 are commonly used in non-animal protein dairy 

15 substitutes. Like yogurts, puddings, cheeses and 

16 sauces.

17 I'd also like to address concerns about 

18 potential negative health effects of phosphates. 

19 Phosphates have a long history of safe use and their 

20 safety has been confirmed from decades of research. 

21 Studies alleging that phosphates are associated 

22 with adverse health effects has not been validated.
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1 Many of these studies involved humans 

2 with preexisting health conditions or animals feed 

3 large amounts of phosphates, unrealistic 

4 consumption. So as I'm running out of time, let 

5 me conclude.

6 There are no organic alternatives or 

7 practices that make the use of potassium phosphate 

8 unnecessary. IFAC notes this essentiality is 

9 reflected in comments from other organic 

10 formulators which state that alternatives have 

11 been tested and are not suitable.

12 I'd like to thank you for your 

13 consideration today, and I'm happy to take any 

14 questions.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Question from Tom.

16 Yes, I should, you did finish almost exactly right 

17 on time.

18 MR. GARDNER: And I'd just like the 

19 record to show that's the first time I've gotten 

20 all my comments in. So thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Tom.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So I have a question 
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1 from your written comments.

2 MR. GARDNER: Sure.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: On phosphates, you 

4 note that with regards to labeling all phosphate 

5 compounds must be included in the ingredients list?

6 MR. GARDNER: That is correct.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Is that true in the 

8 case of tricalcium phosphate used as a floating 

9 salt?

10 MR. GARDNER: It may be possible that 

11 that would be considered a processing aid use. I'm 

12 not necessarily an expert on trical. I know there

13 are some folks who will be following me that may 

14 be able to answer that question. If it is used as 

15 a direct food additive it will always be indicated 

16 on the label. Processing aids, have a slightly 

17 different labeling regulation.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Are you aware of use 

19 of the phosphates as processing aids?

20 MR. GARDNER: I'm not extremely 

21 familiar with that.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Other 

2 questions? Harold.

3 MEMBER AUSTIN: In your written 

4 comments you guys also supported the listing of 

5 sodium and potassium lactate. Could you take and 

6 explain that a little bit more please?

7 MR. GARDNER: Well, we understand form 

8 our members that both of those compounds are being 

9 widely sold into the organic market. And that 

10 there are no current replacements that would 

11 provide the same functionality.

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

14 for your comments.

15 MR. GARDNER: Thank you.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

17 Kate Davis, and she'll be followed by Wanda 

18 Jurlina.

19 MS. DAVIS: Good morning. I first 

20 want to thank you for your work and for thoroughly 

21 listening to the wide variety of public comments 

22 that you've heard today, and also yesterday.
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1 My name is Kate Davis and I am the 

2 Marketing Director for the Americas for CP Kelco. 

3 CP Kelco is a company that dates back to 1929 that 

4 provides hydrocolloids to the food industry 

5 including those for organic production.

6 Keeping xanthan gum on the National 

7 List provides a multitude of options for organic 

8 food producers and consumers. It's primarily used 

9 as a stabilizer and thickener and is irreplaceable 

10 because of these features.

11 It is pseudoplastic. It is soluble in 

12 both hot and cold water. It is stable over a range 

13 of pH and of temperature. It is compatible with 

14 and stable in systems containing high 

15 concentrations of salt. It provides excellent 

16 suspension for insoluble solids and for oil 

17 droplets. It is resistant to enzymatic 

18 degradation. And we provide grades that support 

19 natural and organic label claims.

20 Xanthan gum has been used for more than 

21 40 years in food production without health or 

22 safety concerns. And as part of the work that I 
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1 do in marketing, it's my responsibility to listen 

2 to my consumers. And what the consumers are 

3 telling us, they require it in their production.

4 So we are always checking with our 

5 customers, the organic food producers to 

6 understand what their manufacturing needs are. 

7 They tell us that this is what's important, and this 

8 is why they use xanthan gum. Because it aids in 

9 viscosity build, provides suspension properties, 

10 and still thins for pumpability during model 

11 filling in production.

12 It's useful in systems at temperature 

13 extremes. And because of its cold solubility and 

14 ability to withstand a range of temperatures in 

15 both processing and storage, it's very useful and 

16 they can produce in a variety of ways. And it's 

17 used across an incredible variety of products and 

18 gauge ranges. Everything from salad dressings, to 

19 beverage mixes, to baked goods.

20 They understand it has a record of safe 

21 use, and we request that xanthan gum be maintained 

22 on the National List. Thank you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

2 for your comments. Questions? Yes, Dr. Thicke.

3 MEMBER THICKE: Can you tell us about 

4 the manufacture of xanthan gum, is it made from corn 

5 or soy products.

6 MS. DAVIS: I'm sorry?

7 MEMBER THICKE: The manufacture of 

8 xanthan gum?

9 MS. DAVIS: I think my next colleague 

10 is probably better posed to answer that, as she's 

11 our technical expert.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Next 

13 speaker is Wanda Jurlina, and she'll be followed 

14 by Cheryl Van Dyne.

15 MS. JURLINA: All right. My name is 

16 Wanda Jurlina, I'm the Tech Service Manager for CP 

17 Kelco. I've spent my entire career working with 

18 things that thicken and gel water, for all kinds 

19 of different food applications.

20 Today I'm going to talk to you a little 

21 bit about xanthan gum and what it brings to 

22 manufacturers of processed foods, those that are 
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1 organic, and those that are not.

2 One of the things that some of the folks 

3 that would like to see xanthan gum delisted have 

4 said, is there are alternatives. And I'm here to 

5 share with you today, that aren't alternatives to 

6 xanthan gum that can provide a manufacturer with 

7 the same functionality that they get from xanthan 

8 gum.

9 I've picked three properties that 

10 really set xanthan gum apart and put them on this 

11 slide for you, along with the ingredients that 

12 people say are equivalent to xanthan gum.

13 Xanthan gum has an acid stability that 

14 is unmatched by something like guar. If I'm 

15 looking at the viscosity that it creates in a 

16 system, locust bean gum can't come close to the 

17 viscosity that xanthan gum provides.

18 And if I look at suspension, whether 

19 that be a nutritional component like insoluble 

20 calcium, carbonate that can be added to a product, 

21 or if I'm looking at suspension of oil droplets in 

22 an emulsion, locust bean and guar can't match that 
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1 functionality.

2 When I look at what makes xanthan gum 

3 unique is it is cold soluble. So if a processor 

4 of salad dressings doesn't use heat in their 

5 process, they are going to be able to use xanthan 

6 gum. Whereas locust bean gum wouldn't work in that 

7 application.

8 It's pH stable, guar can't match that 

9 pH stability in a salad dressing application and 

10 give people the functionality that they need. 

11 When we're looking at things like temperature 

12 stability, that allows our organic producers to 

13 ship a product across the states in the middle of 

14 summer, or in the middle of winter and have the 

15 temperature stability that need.

16 That suspension that xanthan provides 

17 is unmatched in viscous systems. Nothing suspends 

18 like xanthan gum in a viscous system.

19 I also put in this slide that I shared 

20 with the group in April to remind everyone of the 

21 different applications that xanthan gum goes into. 

22 As well as some of the other ingredients that are 
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1 already on the organic list, including those that 

2 would like to see xanthan delisted, say, or 

3 equivalent. You'll see from this information that 

4 it isn't. Thank you.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

6 for your comments.

7 MS. JURLINA: Okay, do you want me to 

8 handle the one that you gave Kate?

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, Francis does, 

10 yes.

11 MS. JURLINA: Okay, so xanthan gum is 

12 a polysaccharide that's produced by 

13 fermentation. What that means is a bacteria in its 

14 normal life cycle produces this long-chain 

15 polysaccharide. In the manufacturing of xanthan 

16 gum, you provide a nitrogen source, you provide a 

17 carbohydrate source. That nitrogen source and 

18 carbohydrate source could be basically any 

19 nitrogen source or carbohydrate source.

20 So it could be a wheat syrup, it could 

21 be a soy protein, it could be just an ammonia salt 

22 that you're using for your nitrogen source. It 
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1 could be a wheat syrup, so there's a variety of 

2 different things that are used in the production 

3 of xanthan gum to provide both that carbohydrate 

4 and that nitrogen source that are required for 

5 life.

6 MEMBER THICKE: What is the common 

7 carbohydrate source?

8 MS. JURLINA: Many of the western 

9 producers use corn syrup. We also see wheat syrup 

10 used as well.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

12 much. Any other comments. Great. Thank you.

13 MS. JURLINA: Okay.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

15 Cheryl Van Dyne and she'll be followed by Lori 

16 Klopf. And I should just a time check. We are 

17 about half an hour behind time.

18 MS. VAN DYNE: Thank you very much for 

19 your time today. And I hope that we can answer the 

20 questions that you may have on xanthan gum.

21 Whoops, did I turn it off?

22 Okay, so, I think I went to the end. 
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1 All right, so my comments today are on xanthan gum. 

2 CP Kelco is a member of Biopolymer International 

3 and IFAC. IFAC is the International Food 

4 Additives Council and our focus is on good science 

5 and safety of our product. And as Wanda and Kate 

6 have mentioned, this product has been in commerce 

7 and food for over 40 years. And there's a good body 

8 of science and safety information about it.

9 We urge the National Organic Standards 

10 Board to consider continuing to provide the option 

11 for keeping xanthan in organic production for the 

12 use by producers to provide consumers with the 

13 opportunity to have products that would not be 

14 available otherwise.

15 The functionality of xanthan serves an 

16 important growing organic market which provide 

17 organic consumers with choices. Xanthan is also 

18 an essential ingredient and in special dietary 

19 consideration is widely used for populations with 

20 allergies, celiac disease, and you know for wheat 

21 replacements.

22 And xanthan is the aligned with the 
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1 organic principles and it does not have an 

2 alternative. Xanthan gum is used in very small 

3 amounts and brings value to the producers and 

4 consumers.

5 It's used alone or with other 

6 stabilizers by the organic industry in a variety 

7 of 95 percent organic products. And it's used by 

8 organic producers in food that again provide 

9 benefits that would not be available to consumers 

10 for their dietary considerations.

11 Xanthan, to address the manufacturing 

12 issue again, is produced in a fermentation process. 

13 Fermentation is a nature based process and is used 

14 commonly used in food production. Xanthan is 

15 produced from natural sources. The bacteria comes 

16 from nature. The agricultural input are for the 

17 carbohydrates and proteins.

18 Production of xanthan gum does not harm 

19 the environment. And it aligns with organic 

20 principles. Because xanthan is produced through 

21 a natural process, the bacteria grow the same as 

22 gellan. And we mentioned this in the spring. We 
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1 are asking you, the USDA, NOP, and the NOSB to 

2 consider changing the listing for xanthan gum 

3 205.605(a) non-synthetic.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

5 very much for your comments. I think you finished 

6 right on time. Is that your ending? Yes, good. 

7 Well you definitely get the gold star or whatever 

8 it is, a little one.

9 Questions, Nick.

10 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, just in 

11 following up on your statements that xanthan gum 

12 is in accordance with organic principles. And you 

13 may want to refer back to some of your previous 

14 statements and testimony here today.

15 Is there any possibility that GMO feed 

16 stocks, or substrates are used in the production 

17 of xanthan gum that you would be providing to 

18 organic processes?

19 MS. VAN DYNE: Well as you know GMO is 

20 not allowed in the production. But also as you 

21 know, in the U.S. it's very difficult to get 

22 GMO-free nutrient medium. Kelco in particular is 
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1 working towards that end in getting IP certificates 

2 for our nutrient medium.

3 But also yes, it's difficult so we do 

4 have statements from producers. We do PCR testing 

5 and so we have a relatively good understanding in 

6 our supply chain that we provide a non-GMO xanthan 

7 gum.

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: And do you have a 

9 tolerance or a threshold limit on, for your 

10 testing?

11 MS. VAN DYNE: The PCR testing itself, 

12 if we do PCR testing then that tolerance is per the 

13 PCR limit of the test. I wouldn't know the PCR 

14 level, sorry. And I've seen the results and it is 

15 negative. Thanks.

16 MEMBER MARAVELL: So you're going for 

17 a negative result.

18 MS. VAN DYNE: We're going for 

19 negative, yes.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

21 for your comments.

22 MS. VAN DYNE: Yes.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. The 

2 next speaker is Lori Klopf, and she'll be followed 

3 by Zareb Herman.

4 MS. KLOPF: Good morning. My name is 

5 Lori Klopf and I work for ICL Food Specialties. A 

6 company that produces food ingredients for both the 

7 conventional and the organic food industry. Our 

8 company is also a member of the International Food 

9 Additives Council, and we support the comments from 

10 this trade association on behalf of continued 

11 listing of different phosphates on the National 

12 List.

13 In my presentation I would like to 

14 provide some information on why phosphates are 

15 important in providing a variety of different foods 

16 based on organic products.

17 Phosphates are a combination of 

18 phosphors from natural ore with basic salts to 

19 produce food grade pure phosphates. Phosphorus is 

20 an essential element in the human body and it is 

21 key to many biochemical processes. This element 

22 is present naturally in many foods and the addition 
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1 of phosphates to foods does not contribute 

2 significantly to the overall intake of phosphorus 

3 in foods.

4 Phosphates have been scientifically 

5 reviewed for safety in foods by international 

6 regulatory bodies and the overall scientific 

7 evidence shows that they are safe for use in foods.

8 I'll now highlight some of the main 

9 functions of phosphates in foods. Leavening, or 

10 raising action is needed for baked goods. 

11 Phosphates are common components in baking powder 

12 which combines ingredients that react to form gas 

13 that creates the needed texture and fluffiness in 

14 foods such as cakes, muffins, waffles, batters, and 

15 tortillas.

16 Also phosphates are needed in cheese 

17 sauces. Cheeses naturally contain protein, fat, 

18 and water. The addition of a small amount of 

19 sodium phosphate helps stabilize the system and 

20 provides consistency and smoothness in the cheese 

21 sauce.

22 This slide shows a few examples of 
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1 organic products which do contain phosphates. The 

2 cheese sauces, and also dry powdered cheese sauces 

3 require phosphates for smooth texture. In 

4 addition some baked goods are shown here that use 

5 phosphates as part of the baking powder system to 

6 create products with the correct texture, 

7 tortillas, the batter on the mozzarella cheese 

8 sticks, and frozen waffles.

9 Two other essential functionalities of 

10 phosphates are shown on this slide. Phosphates 

11 are some of the most affective buffers available. 

12 They are able to adjust and maintain a desired pH 

13 of a food system. They are often used in coffee 

14 creamers, or whiteners to prevent the fat 

15 separation and to give a smooth whitened product 

16 when added to this hot acidic coffee beverages.

17 A popular property in stores are the 

18 variety of non-animal protein beverages often 

19 marketed as milks. From sources such as almond, 

20 rice, soy, coconut and more. Calcium phosphates 

21 provide both the nutrient calcium as well as 

22 providing a rich whitened appearance to the 
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1 beverages. Some examples of these products are 

2 shown in this slide.

3 In conclusion, I'd like to reiterate 

4 some of the following points, phosphates offer many 

5 benefits for texture and taste of organic foods. 

6 They have unique functions in organic foods that 

7 cannot be duplicated by other organic 

8 alternatives. And we support continued listing of 

9 phosphates on the National List to use where needed 

10 in organic foods. Thank you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

12 Question, Tom.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I have two questions. 

14 If phosphates are being used as part of the baking 

15 powder would they be labeled as phosphates or be 

16 labeled as baking powder?

17 MS. KLOPF: They would both, typically 

18 it will say baking powder, and then in parentheses, 

19 it lists each ingredient in the baking powder. So 

20 it would be listed on the ingredient list.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Then in the course of 

22 researching this material, there's been issues 
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1 raised with calcium absorption being prevented or 

2 compromised. But sequestered, calcium being 

3 sequestered due to the presence of phosphates. Do 

4 you have any information in providing further 

5 details about calcium related issues, absorption, 

6 phosphates?

7 MS. KLOPF: I'm sorry, I didn't quite 

8 understand your question.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Nor did I understand 

10 what I was asking, so. I'm going to yield to Jean 

11 who'll try to ask my question better.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I think what Tom is 

13 trying to say, is that some of the research 

14 indicated that the calcium is actually bound up, 

15 is the known accessible when it's in a phosphate 

16 form. Do you have any of the science that might 

17 help us to understand that any better?

18 MS. KLOPF: Right. We have had 

19 bioavailability studies done on these products. 

20 And no, the calcium is not bound unavailably from 

21 calcium phosphate.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other 
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1 questions? Great. Oh, sorry. Lisa and then 

2 Zea.

3 MEMBER DE LIMA: I noticed in some 

4 products, dairy products like cottage cheese for 

5 example, where some brands will use calcium 

6 phosphate and others don't. So could you, do you 

7 have any information on necessity and why one brand 

8 might use it, and another might not?

9 MS. KLOPF: Well, typically as you 

10 know, they would have to meet the standard of 

11 identity to be called cottage cheese. But why it 

12 would be used or not would depend on the overall 

13 formulation in there. And I can't recall exactly 

14 right now the standard of identity, what that calls 

15 for as far as phosphate levels. But there would 

16 be an allowance for one type or another.

17 MEMBER DE LIMA: Can you explain this 

18 standard of identity, it's one I don't know.

19 MS. KLOPF: Oh, yes. For certain food 

20 products in the code of federal regulations there, 

21 it's called center of identity. So in order to be 

22 called cottage cheese or peanut butter or whatever 
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1 you have to meet all the requirements.

2 And it does give ingredients that are 

3 allowed, and certain levels. So it would need to 

4 meet those you know not, you can't put anything else 

5 in there other than what is allowed in that standard 

6 of identity.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. You 

9 made a statement to the effect that because foods 

10 already have phosphorus in them, adding phosphates 

11 didn't add to the overall consumption of phosphates 

12 that a person would ingest. And I wonder what that 

13 statement is based on?

14 MS. KLOPF: Okay, well there's another 

15 word in there, it doesn't add significantly to the 

16 overall intake of phosphorus. Phosphate or 

17 phosphorus is present in all plant matter, and 

18 there is in meats, and there are a number of natural 

19 sources of phosphorus. So when phosphates are 

20 added in foods, it's really at a very low level, 

21 so it does not significantly impact the intake of 

22 phosphorus.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Like percentage 

2 wise, compared to an overall phosphorus in a food, 

3 is an added phosphate 1 percent, 10 percent, .1 

4 percent?

5 MS. KLOPF: Well, of course it depends 

6 very much on the food. If it's used as a buffer,

7 phosphates are very effective at low levels, so it 

8 is you know less than half a percent in the food. 

9 And maybe up to a couple of a percent depending if 

10 you're trying to use like calcium phosphates as 

11 more of a nutrient or whitening source.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calvin, question?

13 MEMBER WALKER: For my benefit, could 

14 you explain again the standard, or of an entity. 

15 My note says that the ingredients must meet a 

16 certain level to be, that was your definition?

17 MS. KLOPF: In the standard of 

18 identity, basically you must meet all the 

19 requirements in the standard of identity. So you 

20 can only include ingredients that are allowed. 

21 And there may or may not be levels that are included 

22 in the standard of identity, just depending on, 
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1 each one is different. But is there are levels you 

2 must meet those as well.

3 Thank you very much for your comments, 

4 much appreciated. We will take Zareb Herman's 

5 comments and then we will take a ten minute break. 

6 Zareb.

7 MR. HERMAN: Good morning. My name is 

8 Zareb Herman. I am a nutritionist and a food 

9 scientist with The Hain Celestial Group. One of 

10 the largest producers of organic products in the 

11 world. I want to continue the discussion of 

12 phosphates.

13 And Harold said, that we get a thousand, 

14 we get one minute for every thousand miles travel, 

15 so I traveled 2500 miles, so my comments will be 

16 exactly two minutes and 30 seconds.

17 Calcium phosphates are very important 

18 in organic production. The monobasic form is used 

19 as a leavening agent by many companies to produce 

20 hundreds of organic baked products. There is no 

21 other substance on the National List that is 

22 equivalent.
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1 The dibasic and tribasic forms are also 

2 used in many organic products. Sodium phosphates 

3 are commonly used in dairy products including some 

4 organic cheeses. Our suppliers of organic cheese 

5 powders tell us that sodium diphosphate is 

6 essential in stabilizing the proteins and 

7 preventing oil separation. There is not a 

8 suitable alternative on the National List. We 

9 request that sodium phosphates and calcium 

10 phosphates remain on the National List.

11 I want to focus on potential health 

12 concerns. Phosphates are a dietary source of 

13 phosphorus which is an essential mineral for human 

14 health. The recommended daily intake of 

15 phosphorus for adults is 1000 milligrams per day. 

16 Many Americans consume more than this amount 

17 because phosphorus is found in a wide variety of 

18 foods.

19 For example a four ounce serving of fish 

20 contains about three hundred and fifty milligrams 

21 of phosphorus. There is concern that some 

22 individuals especially those with kidney disease 
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1 may experience adverse health effects from 

2 excessive phosphorus intake.

3 More research is needed to clarify the 

4 safe upper limits for consumption but the 

5 phosphates that are allowed in organic food 

6 products contribute a small fraction of the 

7 phosphorus in the diet. This should not affect 

8 human health.

9 And finally if an individual wishes to 

10 limit his intake of phosphorus, he or she can check 

11 the product ingredient statement. Thank you.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

13 for your comments. Questions? Harold.

14 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you, Zeb. My 

15 question to you is with the calcium phosphates have 

16 you looked at any potential alternatives? Are 

17 there any that could possibly work?

18 MR. HERMAN: Well, when you talk about 

19 alternative, you're talking about things on the 

20 National List. And we have a limited National 

21 List.

22 And when it comes to the monocalcium 
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1 phosphate which we use as a baking powder, there 

2 isn't any other leavening agent on the National 

3 List that is equivalent that has the same reaction 

4 rate when you're baking your product at a certain 

5 temperature, and for a certain time.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tom, you have a 

7 question?

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: In follow-up to that, 

9 are there equivalent products that are not on the 

10 National List for the application?

11 MR. HERMAN: Well, for an organic 

12 product, it has to be organic. I'm not aware of 

13 any organic alternative.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: How about those for a 

15 conventional product?

16 MR. HERMAN: For conventional 

17 products?

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes.

19 MR. HERMAN: Well, not to my knowledge.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, are 

21 there other questions?

22 Very good, thank you very much for your 
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1 comments.

2 I'd like to take only a ten minute break 

3 because we are running more than about a half an 

4 hour and late. So if we could come back say at 25 

5 past ten? That would be really great and we can 

6 maybe get caught up a little bit before lunch time. 

7 Thank you.

8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

9 went off the record at 10:12 a.m. and resumed at 

10 10:26 a.m.)

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. Our 

12 first speaker in this section of our public comment 

13 will be Kris Anderson. And he'll be followed by 

14 Myra Weiner.

15 MR. ANDERSON: Well thank you very much 

16 for letting me speak to the Board today. I'm an 

17 organic hop farmer from here in Vermont and I'm 

18 going to be discussing the issue of weed control 

19 in hops.

20 Yes, the main issues in any organic 

21 growing system is adequate fertilization, weed 

22 control and pests. And what I'm talking about 
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1 primarily are the second two today.

2 Conventional hop growers in the U.S., 

3 especially, basically just use chemical desiccants 

4 to kill all the plant around the bottom of their 

5 plants, in their rows and the lower leaves so 

6 there's nothing to grow fungus and to support 

7 insect's populations. At least pest and insect 

8 populations.

9 There are organic desiccants but 

10 they're all really expensive and they're not that 

11 affective. I've used them myself and they didn't 

12 work all that well.

13 There is one other major control method 

14 that's used in all of the major hop growing areas 

15 of the world and that's sheep. This is the 

16 traditional way that hop farmers have controlled 

17 their weeds.

18 They basically leave all the grasses 

19 and weeds around the base of the plant. So once 

20 the plants are about four feet high, they won't eat 

21 the stalk of the vine and they'll eat the lower 

22 leaves. And therefore it will help improve 
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1 airflow and decrease fungus and insects.

2 Right now in New Zealand, Australia, 

3 where they really don't use any pesticides because 

4 a lot of the fungi, which are issues for hops, are 

5 not present. They use sheep as the only weed 

6 control method.

7 Right now in Canada and Europe, 

8 especially in organic hop farms, this is the legal 

9 way that people by and large control weeds and 

10 fungi.

11 Right now in Canada, and so the pictures 

12 I'm showing here are from a farm just across the 

13 border in Ontario, they're exclusion period for 

14 sheep is about two weeks prior to harvest. They 

15 make certain that the vines, when they're cut down, 

16 do not lay on the ground where the sheep feces would 

17 be. And that's approved by the, at least Canadian 

18 Organic Standards Board.

19 In New Zealand and Australia right now, 

20 the exclusion period is about four weeks prior to 

21 harvest.

22 In the U.S. unfortunately, for 
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1 vegetable crops, the exclusion period is 120 days. 

2 There's an orchard exception for 90 days.

3 The problem is that 90 days prior to 

4 harvest, my plants aren't four feet high. The 

5 sheep will eat the plants. And therefore there's 

6 really no benefit for having sheep in that early.

7 They tried to find a way around it in 

8 Michigan earlier on this year, but their organic 

9 certifier couldn't find a way around that part of 

10 the rule. Same with our certifier here in Vermont.

11 So my request to the NOSB is hopefully 

12 you support an exception to that 120 day sheep 

13 exclusion rule for hop yards, to about 30 days, just 

14 like they do in New Zealand. Or just shorter than 

15 what they, which is longer than what they do in 

16 Canada right now.

17 The rational for this is, is this a 

18 traditional method with centuries of use for how 

19 people control weeds and fungi in hop yards. It's 

20 an easy method, they're easy methods to prevent the 

21 vines from falling on the ground or getting 

22 contaminated.
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1 The hops are not directly consumed as 

2 a food anyway. They're always either having 

3 alcohol in there or they're going to have been 

4 boiled. Which is going to kill whatever pathogens 

5 are present.

6 Thank you for listening. And have if 

7 you have any questions --

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. We have 

9 a question. Tracy?

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: As a sheep farmer, 

11 I've just got a text from my sheep and they wanted 

12 to know when they could get a grazing gig doing 

13 hops.

14 My suggestion is that perhaps you could 

15 consider a petition for this. Bring it before the 

16 Board and you might get some action on it.

17 MR. ANDERSON: Okay.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tom?

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I have a question, 

20 probably for the program. Would this be a material 

21 petition or this would need to be a change to the 

22 regulations?
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1 MR. McEVOY: Yes, it's an interesting 

2 situation. Because the use of manure is excluded 

3 in 90 and 120 days. And the question is, is sheep 

4 grazing in application of manure. So it's not like 

5 you're taking the tractor down the rows.

6 I think this is something that we can 

7 look into at the program level. Look at 

8 potentially some guidance on this.

9 We certainly would have to consult with 

10 the FDA in terms of the implementation of FSMA. 

11 But this is something that I think we, as the 

12 program, could take a look at.

13 I'm not sure if it needs NOSB action, 

14 but certain we can take a look at this and confer 

15 back to the Board on this dilemma about sheep 

16 grazing in hop work.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, Nick? Quick 

18 question.

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: More of a comment. 

20 This is not the first time that we've heard about 

21 this issue.

22 And I think it would behoove you to talk 
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1 to people who have other permanent vines or 

2 orchards to see what they're applications are for 

3 sheep grazing. Because I think that it could be 

4 a very viable weed control strategy.

5 And the more people you have asking for 

6 that strategy, well, sometimes it makes it worse, 

7 sometimes it makes it better. I can't tell you 

8 which.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

10 much, Kris, for your comments. My appreciated.

11 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you very much 

12 everybody.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Next 

14 speaker is Myra Weiner. And she'll be followed by 

15 Rolf Carlson.

16 MS. WEINER: Thank you for this 

17 opportunity to speak to you this morning. I'm Dr. 

18 Myra Weiner. I'm a consulting toxicologist 

19 presenting comments on behalf of Innophos.

20 Just some background. The inorganic 

21 phosphate food additives are composed of the 

22 phosphate molecule with four oxygen's. The 
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1 valence of minus three cations capable of binding 

2 in the food area are hydrogen, sodium, potassium, 

3 calcium and magnesium.

4 As has been stated, phosphate is an 

5 essential nutrient to life. It is required for 

6 normal physiological functions.

7 Dietary phosphates are rapidly 

8 absorbed and excreted in urine with no 

9 bioaccumulation. Dietary phosphate is treated 

10 and handled by the body in the same way as naturally 

11 occurring phosphates.

12 Food additive phosphates have a long 

13 safe history of use in foods spanning five decades. 

14 The safety is based on a large database of animal 

15 studies by oral administration. Primarily 

16 dietary.

17 Long-term dietary studies have shown 

18 the inorganic phosphates to be safe. They cause 

19 no adverse effects, when feed at levels up to 0.5 

20 percent in the diets in rats and dogs, over a 

21 lifetime.

22 Inorganic phosphates have been shown 
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1 not to be carcinogenic, genotoxic or mutagenic in 

2 animal and in vitro studies. They do not cause 

3 birth defects, reproductive toxicity in laboratory 

4 animals at high levels through oral gavage or diet.

5 They show the same safety profile 

6 regardless of the cation. Whether it's sodium, 

7 potassium, calcium.

8 Because the phosphates are all similar, 

9 they're regulated as a group. The U.S. FDA has 

10 approved the use of phosphates by direct addition 

11 to food.

12 And the select committee of the FDA 

13 considers them generally recognized as safe. Or 

14 grass. An indication of their high level of 

15 safety. They do not present a hazard to human 

16 health when added directly to food.

17 Globally, the World Health 

18 Organization Joint Expert Committee on Food 

19 Additives, or JECFA, concluded that a maximum 

20 tolerated daily intake, or MTDI, of 17 milligrams 

21 per day, per kilogram body weight, is permitted.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you.
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1 MS. WEINER: This slide shows --

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, you have much 

3 --

4 MS. WEINER: I'll just show you one 

5 slide, because it answers a question that was 

6 raised earlier on the level of phosphate added to 

7 the human diet from the food additives. It's 

8 roughly ten to 30 percent of the total phosphate 

9 intake.

10 On the left is the daily intake 

11 estimated by FDA for food additive phosphates. 

12 Roughly 300 milligrams per day.

13 The recommended daily intake, 

14 essential for life, is from 800 to 1,200 milligrams 

15 per day. And the JECFA maximum acceptable daily 

16 intake is up to 4,900 milligrams per day. Thank 

17 you.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank you 

19 very much. Questions? Zea?

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. On that 

21 bar chart, I noticed that the average daily intake 

22 per capita is data from 1975. Since 1975, far more 
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1 processed food is consumed and far more processing 

2 ingredients are added to that processed food.

3 And so could you give a perspective on 

4 more current data of how much is consumed per capita 

5 in processed food, given increased consumption of 

6 processed food?

7 MS. WEINER: Well that data is being 

8 reevaluated currently and I don't have a number. 

9 But in general, the total phosphorus intake, from 

10 both food additives and naturally occurring 

11 sources, is roughly the same. And is well below 

12 the maximum tolerated daily intake.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tom, you had a 

14 question?

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So I wanted to hit on 

16 the question I asked earlier about the relationship 

17 between sodium phosphate and calcium 

18 sequestration. Do you have any further data about 

19 when calcium combines with the phosphate that it 

20 reduces the combinability to absorb calcium?

21 MS. WEINER: I can't hear you.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I wanted to ask about 
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1 the relationship between sodium phosphate and 

2 calcium sequestration. And the claim that we've 

3 read in our technical reviews.

4 I think that when calcium combines with 

5 phosphate, the body's ability to absorb calcium is 

6 reduced.

7 MS. WEINER: Well I haven't seen that 

8 claim, but based on my information, and the calcium 

9 phosphate is actually providing two essential 

10 ingredients or nutrients. Both calcium and 

11 phosphate. So that's very important for the 

12 body's balance of good nutrient and good bone 

13 health.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: That's the case with 

15 calcium phosphate. My question was about sodium 

16 phosphate.

17 MS. WEINER: Sodium phosphate, again, 

18 all of the regulatory agencies look at the group 

19 of phosphates in the same way. By the phosphate.

20 Now they don't distinguish by the 

21 cation. So they're all considered fine. And in 

22 fact, a lot of the animal studies were done using 
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1 sodium salts with no problem.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

3 for your comments. Much appreciated. Our next up 

4 speaker is Rolf Carlson. And he'll be followed by 

5 Reed Miller.

6 MR. CARLSON: Thank you for this 

7 opportunity to comment. My name is Rolf Carlson. 

8 I am the vice-president for sourcing and 

9 sustainability at Stonyfield.

10 We have submitted detailed written 

11 comments and I will focus today on natural flavors, 

12 colors and the proposal on ancillary substances and 

13 microorganisms.

14 Stonyfield supports the application of 

15 commercial availability to the flavors listing as 

16 a way to encourage industry to move away from use 

17 of natural flavors and use organic options whenever 

18 possible, without being disruptive in prematurely 

19 removing natural flavors from the list.

20 The OTA points out that better guidance 

21 from NOP on how commercial availability should be 

22 evaluated, would help to ensure a consistent and 
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1 more effective approach to compliance across the 

2 industry. We agree.

3 This guidance could hope to ensure that 

4 there is a stronger signal for demand for high 

5 quality organic flavors coming from processes 

6 across the organic sector. Hopefully this would 

7 lead in time to better availability of high quality 

8 organic flavors.

9 We are also glad that the availability 

10 of organic colors has improved to the point where 

11 NOSB can consider sun setting some of them. 

12 However, the NOSB should consider all aspects of 

13 commercial availability before making this 

14 decision.

15 We are aware of a few instances where 

16 organic colors are not available and comparable 

17 quality to natural options. In particular, we had 

18 trouble with quality of organic black or purple 

19 carrot juice extract, carrot juice extract and 

20 turmeric extract. We urge the NOSB to leave these 

21 three colors on the list for now.

22 Stonyfield is supportive of NOSBs 
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1 efforts to conduct a more thorough review of 

2 ancillary substances. Because we believe this 

3 will improve the transparency of the list itself 

4 and provide further assurances to consumers that 

5 they can trust organic label.

6 The current proposal is a step in the 

7 right direction, but there are some improvements 

8 still needed. First, the term ancillary substance 

9 is not commonly used or understood by the food 

10 industry.

11 The NOSB should develop a 

12 recommendation to NOP for definition of ancillary 

13 substances. This would make it much easier for 

14 companies like us to communicate with our 

15 ingredient suppliers about this topic.

16 Further, NOP should develop a formal 

17 affidavit that can be used across the supply chain 

18 to consistently communicate and collect the rest 

19 of the information that is needed to assess 

20 compliance.

21 We support the recommendation that the 

22 ancillary substances that fall into one of the 
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1 functional classes are readily reviewed by the 

2 NOSB, do not need further review in order to be 

3 used.

4 To avoid unnecessary roadblocks in the 

5 R&D process, it is important that any guidance 

6 allows for use of particular ancillary substances 

7 that may have been overlooked in the initial R&D

8 process. Provided they are consistent with known 

9 functional categories.

10 We believe that the best way to manage 

11 information about ancillary substances is for NOP 

12 to published proposed guidance based on 

13 recommendations they receive from NOSB and allow 

14 for public review and comment period. Thank you 

15 for the opportunity to comment.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

17 much. Questions? Tom?

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So I know you 

19 commented on those three colors --

20 MR. CARLSON: Correct.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: -- that you do not 

22 find as commercially available. Are there other 
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1 colors, organic colors, you're utilizing 

2 currently? That in your --

3 MR. CARLSON: Organic colors?

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes.

5 MR. CARLSON: Yes. We have, well you 

6 know, with organic colors and flavors we had made 

7 lots of progress with vanilla and beet juice. 

8 Okay.

9 And during our renovation process or 

10 products or development of new products and favors 

11 and colors, we currently assess, if available, at 

12 least three sources of organic first, before 

13 turning to the natural options.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So you're using 

15 organic beet juice currently?

16 MR. CARLSON: Correct.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay. Thank you.

18 MR. CARLSON: Thank you.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any other comments? 

20 Great, thanks very much for your comments. Much 

21 appreciated.

22 MR. CARLSON: Thank you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Next we have Reed 

2 Miller. And you'll be followed by Katrina Heinze.

3 MR. MILLER: Good morning. My name is 

4 Reed Miller. I'm the owner and operator of Dwight 

5 Miller & Son Orchards in Dummerston, Vermont.

6 I'm celebrating my 20th year of 

7 certified organic fruit production, but we have 

8 been growing fruit as a family since pre-Civil War. 

9 We're well experienced in what we do as far as fruit 

10 production.

11 I'm here to comment on sulfur, not 

12 sulfur, calcium polysulphate. Which is liquid 

13 lime sulfur. And copper.

14 And these apples that are here by the 

15 pots, those are fruit that were grown this year. 

16 The results that you're going to see up here on the 

17 screen are actually to show you that we can grow 

18 high quality. The highest quality of fruit in the 

19 northeast under damp conditions without the use of 

20 synthetic chemicals.

21 I have been using calcium polysulphate 

22 since, well for the last 19 years. At one point 
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1 I was told I was the largest user in the country. 

2 I've used about 30,000 gallons on about 4,000 

3 different rates. On a myriad of different crops.

4 What we've done is we've broken down 

5 that product into something where we understand 

6 very clearly that it's not the material, it's the 

7 rate. And it's a very safe, very effective 

8 material to use when it's used at the proper rate.

9 When problems can occur, it might be the 

10 excessive rates that were basically attributed to 

11 my forefathers generations.

12 When these compounds were used back in 

13 my fathers, forefathers generation, Pre-World War 

14 II, they were done using very big equipment. Lots 

15 of water.

16 And nothing that can be compared to 

17 today using the rates that we have electronic 

18 equipment at very small rates. So we've been able 

19 to break this down and to use it very safely, very 

20 effectively under some conditions that would be 

21 absolutely not considered good under most growing 

22 conditions. Are there any questions?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Questions? 

2 Harold?

3 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you, Reed. With 

4 your use of the lime sulfur, have you seen any 

5 negative impact on beneficial insects in our 

6 orchards?

7 MR. MILLER: No. In fact I have a 

8 friend who I have advised to use this and has done 

9 it very successful as a conventional grower in the 

10 Northeast and his beneficials have actually 

11 expanded.

12 Again, I'm going to say that it's, you 

13 can hold enough salt in your hand to kill you, but 

14 sodium is essential to the human body. It's not 

15 the poison, it's the rate.

16 And the rates that we use are 

17 significantly less than what was previously done 

18 by my forefathers. And so the compound itself I 

19 think is something that has to be kept, something 

20 that needs to be utilized.

21 There's a reason why it's expanding. 

22 Because all it is is basically pH. We're talking 
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1 about sulfur and calcium. We all need it.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Other questions for 

3 Reed? Thank you, Reed. Excellent, very clear 

4 presentation. Very much appreciated.

5 Our next speaker is Katrina Heinze. 

6 And she'll be followed by Joe Moidl.

7 MS. HEINZE: Wow. They kick you off 

8 the NOSB for real.

9 Good morning. Thank you for your time 

10 today. My name is Katrina Heinze, and I'm the 

11 organic ambassador for General Mills and a former 

12 NOSB member who served from 2007 to 2012.

13 I'd like to thank the NOP staff for the 

14 public comment webinars, which gave access to more 

15 folks. Both so they could comment, but more 

16 importantly so they could hear what happens at 

17 NOSB.

18 We took advantage of it and I know lots 

19 of other folks did as well. Great practice, keep 

20 going.

21 Nick, Colehour, Jennifer, Calvin and 

22 Mac, it was a privilege to serve with you and I look 
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1 forward to welcoming you to this side of the podium.

2 General Mills is one of the leading 

3 producers of organic products in the United States. 

4 Each year we serve products certified to the USDA 

5 National Organic standards to over 10 million U.S. 

6 households. And we're growing our organic 

7 commitment.

8 This past August, as part of our 

9 commitment to reducing our greenhouse gas 

10 emissions, 28 percent in the next ten years, we 

11 committed to increasing the organic acres from 

12 which we source by 250,000 acres.

13 Since retiring from the NOSB, I've sat 

14 in your audience listening to robust debate between 

15 those worried that imperfect organic standards are 

16 hurting consumer confidence, and those worried 

17 that a drive for perfection will impeded growth and 

18 limit the impact organic can have. Both are right.

19 And you, the NOSB, exist to find balance 

20 between those perspectives. If it was easy or it 

21 was obvious, you wouldn't be necessary.

22 The compromises between varying 
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1 visions of what organic can be, decided here by you 

2 and previous boards, have nurtured the growth of 

3 100 million acres globally and 5 million acres in 

4 North America.

5 As you make decisions, please think 

6 about how to increase acres and the associated 

7 environmental impact, while maintaining consumer 

8 confidence. How can a continuous improvement 

9 approach allow us to collectively move toward the 

10 vision of agriculture we share?

11 Think about the success we had with hops 

12 and annatto listed and now removed from 606. How 

13 can vigorous understanding of your divergent 

14 perspectives accelerate the adoption of organic 

15 farming practices? Is there a long-term goal that 

16 can be enabled by short-term flexibility?

17 Thank you for your service, your great 

18 debates and communicating your vision so we can 

19 head there together.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Katrina. 

21 Questions from the Board Members? Nope, you're 

22 off the hook.
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1 MS. HEINZE: Thanks.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thanks very much, 

3 Katrina. The next speaker is Joe Moidl. And 

4 he'll be followed by Troy Aykan.

5 MR. MOIDL: NOSB Members, thank you for 

6 the opportunity to comment today. My name is Joe 

7 Moidl and I lead the National Organic Community 

8 within the Research and Development and Quality 

9 Organization at General Mills.

10 As more households choose to buy 

11 organic, we see that they are searching for foods 

12 that align with their values, provide healthy 

13 nourishment and taste great.

14 Increased consumer demand for organic 

15 products has brought a significant increase in the 

16 number of organic choices. Which is great for 

17 consumers. And in turn, a collective desire, our 

18 collective desire, to increase organic acreage.

19 While we respond to the increasing 

20 demand for organic products, we need to recognize 

21 that consumers have a choice when it comes to the 

22 products they purchase and will not compromise in 
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1 the need for great tasting quality products. And 

2 one of those choices is non-organic.

3 Prudent and responsible use of the 

4 materials on the national list can help us to 

5 deliver and develop diverse portfolios of great 

6 tasting organic products to meet our consumer's 

7 needs.

8 That said, when developing organic 

9 products at General Mills, it is our philosophy and 

10 approach to use organic when possible and avoid 

11 using natural flavors currently approved for use 

12 as listed on 205.605(a).

13 In a small number of cases, organic 

14 flavor systems don't meet consumer expectations. 

15 Either at initial development or over the shelf 

16 life of the product. And we will use products from 

17 the approved list, 205.605 (a).

18 For this reason, we want to see more 

19 organic flavor options coming to the market. And 

20 believe that the proposal will do just that.

21 Adding commercial availability to the 

22 natural flavor listing on 205.605(a) is 
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1 responsible stewardship and supports the 

2 advancement of the organic flavor industry.

3 In summary, this proposal is consistent 

4 with our principles and practices at General Mills 

5 and we are supportive of the initiative. Thank you 

6 for your listening and your service to furthering 

7 the mission of increasing availability of organic 

8 goods for our consumers.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

10 much. Questions? From the Board? No questions. 

11 You are a lucky guy.

12 All right, the next presenter is Troy 

13 Aykan. Followed by Joe Smillie.

14 MR. AYKAN: Good morning. My name is 

15 Troy Aykan. I am a food scientist and an attorney 

16 with Hain Celestial Group. One of the largest 

17 organic producers in the world. I also teach 

18 courses in food laws and regulations at several 

19 universities.

20 We strongly support the continued 

21 listing of de-oiled lecithin on the national list. 

22 Lecithin is one of the most widely used emulsifiers 
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1 in organic foods. And some of these food 

2 applications are oil in water emulsions that 

3 utilize the oil lecithin.

4 There's currently only one 

5 manufacturer of organic de-oiled soy lecithin. If 

6 there's a shortage of organic soy beans or if the 

7 one manufacturer shuts down for any reason, organic 

8 de-oiled soy lecithin is likely to become 

9 unavailable.

10 In addition, our company and other 

11 companies produce organic products that are soy 

12 free. Some of these products utilize the oil 

13 lecithin from sunflower seeds or other sources.

14 These do not exist in organic form. 

15 Therefore it is very important to keep the oil, 

16 lecithin, on the national list.

17 I also want to make some brief comments 

18 on xanthan gum. Xanthan gum is a safe effective 

19 thickener that is used in many organic products.

20 In certain applications, it is superior 

21 to other gums in providing the right viscosity and 

22 texture when hydrated. We use it in organic cake 
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1 and cookie mixes, beverages, soups, entrees and 

2 personal care products.

3 We want to stress that xanthan gum is 

4 very safe to consume, despite some comments to the 

5 contrary. We request that xanthan gum remain on 

6 the national list. Thank you.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

8 for your comments. Francis?

9 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you. Does Hain 

10 Celestial Group use any de-oiled organic, de-oiled 

11 lecithin in your products now currently?

12 MR. AYKAN: Yes, we do.

13 MEMBER THICKE: Do you --

14 MR. AYKAN: Oh, that was too close. 

15 I'm sorry.

16 MEMBER THICKE: Do you, at this point, 

17 do you use all organic lecithin for your organic 

18 products? Or do you use something conventional?

19 MR. AYKAN: We use -- I don't, 

20 obviously I don't have access to our entire 

21 portfolio, but whenever it's -- the organic form 

22 is available we use it.
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1 It's not like we're not using non --

2 it's not like we're not using organic de-oiled soy 

3 lecithin when it's applicable in form and quantity 

4 and quality, we use it. Yes.

5 MEMBER THICKE: Have there been times 

6 when organic has not been available in recent 

7 years? Have there been times in recent years when 

8 organic de-oiled lecithin has not been available 

9 for you, for soy product?

10 MR. AYKAN: As far as the supply of it, 

11 that I cannot really talk to the supply of it. But 

12 there is some applications.

13 The quality may not be available. As 

14 you guys may be aware of certain characteristics 

15 of soy lecithin.

16 Let me check my research here. Just a 

17 second please. There is like what's called 

18 hydrophilic versus lipophilic balance. Which is 

19 HLB.

20 Referred to it as it's seven for the 

21 de-oiled, conventional de-oiled lecithin, as 

22 opposed to four with the organic de-oiled soy 
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1 lecithin. So they don't exactly work same way. 

2 But in applications where we could use the organic 

3 de-oiled soy lecithin, we do use it.

4 And as far as the availability, we 

5 should also be concerned about the fact that there 

6 are soy free products. Our non-dairy frozen 

7 desserts. 

8 There is no dairy, no soy. We use 

9 lecithin. And we need to de-oil lecithin from 

10 sunflower and other sources, which are not 

11 currently available in organic form.

12 So if you were to delete de-oiled soy 

13 lecithin, we would basically kill all these 

14 customers demand in something soy-free non-dairy 

15 frozen desserts and similar products.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: There's a question 

17 from Nick Maravell.

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, I agree having 

19 one source of lecithin organic from soy is not a 

20 good thing. Do you have any suggestions on how we 

21 could increase the incentives for additional 

22 producers of lecithin that would be organic in 
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1 nature? Yes.

2 MR. AYKAN: Yes. When you say 

3 incentive, would you mean incentive as to the 

4 potential manufacturers of de-oiled lecithin or to 

5 the handlers? Or both?

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: Oh, I think the 

7 handlers would use organic if it was available.

8 MR. AYKAN: Correct. Yes.

9 MEMBER MARAVELL: No, I'm looking for, 

10 how do we get, and I'm sure the producers would 

11 produce more oil crops, the organic producers, if 

12 that were necessary.

13 MR. AYKAN: Yes.

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: I'm asking how to 

15 make the incentive to get more people into the 

16 manufacturer of the product.

17 MR. AYKAN: Yes. I believe in the free 

18 market economy and the enterprises that if we make 

19 it clear, that the moment we could supply with our 

20 organic food industry with the same quality, 

21 quantity and form of this material. Not only in 

22 soy, but also from sunflower seeds and other 
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1 sources.

2 If NOP to make -- would be to make a 

3 press release or something, then it could be 

4 representation then taken out. And some 

5 entrepreneurs may see some advantage in that. 

6 Getting into that kind of business.

7 It's what I think of as far as 

8 incentives.

9 MEMBER MARAVELL: Do you see anything 

10 that NOSB could do to help those incentives?

11 MR. AYKAN: Yes, they could. 

12 Absolutely. Yes, if you were to make a statement 

13 as you vote and make a commitment that, you know, 

14 the moment we have available, de-oiled lecithin in 

15 that similar quality, quantity and form. 

16 And then this lecithin maybe sunset or 

17 something or be petitioned to be sunset. You could 

18 have that as some kind of statement.

19 I know that we may not get to change 

20 annotations, if I understand the procedure 

21 correctly with our votes, but I'm sure that there 

22 could be some kind of statement or press release. 
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1 I would obviously consult with the NOP for guidance 

2 on that.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

4 for your comments.

5 MR. AYKAN: My pleasure.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

7 Joe Smillie. And he'll be followed by Larry 

8 Plesent.

9 MR. SMILLIE: Hey all. 

10 Congratulations on continuing a wonderful, open, 

11 transparent and democratic process. It's quite 

12 amazing to see it continue.

13 I do live in Vermont. And I have the 

14 Vermont organic license plate.

15 I've been involved in the organic 

16 movement a long, long time. I've been a 

17 homesteader, a gardener, a farmer, an insect 

18 consult, a fertilizer salesman, a commercial 

19 composter and an orchard consultant, an inspector 

20 and a certification agent. So I've sort of seen 

21 a lot of different sides of this wonderful trade 

22 we're all in.
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1 I'm a founding member of OTA, the IOIA 

2 and a previous NOSB member. One of the wonderful 

3 things that I learned, while serving on the NOSB, 

4 was the law of unintended consequences. This will 

5 come up a little later.

6 I concur with the Vermont Secretary of 

7 Agriculture Chuck Ross, Grace Gershuny, Bill Wolf 

8 and others who have pointed out the dangers of 

9 polarization within our movement. We've talked 

10 about it many times, it's not an old story.

11 As Katrina said, we have to balance, you 

12 know, the perfect with the good. You've heard it 

13 all before, you all have your views on it, I'm not 

14 here to change your point of view.

15 My view is we need to change agriculture 

16 from one percent to a heck of a lot more. And the 

17 way we're going to do that is by making the tools 

18 available to farmers and processors that they need 

19 to convert those three years when they have to grow 

20 organic and sell conventionally. That's a tough 

21 thing for any economist to swallow.

22 The law of unintended consequences 
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1 really started when OFPANA debated how we would 

2 draw the line between what's organic and what's 

3 not. We decided, perhaps not to our wisdom, that 

4 we would draw that line between natural and

5 synthetic.

6 That was a decision that was made, it 

7 was argued and that was the final decision in the 

8 early days. This has led to an unintended 

9 consequence that has led to what I call the 

10 demonization of synthetic substances.

11 I've listened to Reed Miller, Nathan 

12 Allen, Vern Grubinger and may others talk about the 

13 need for these tools, which may or may not be deemed 

14 synthetic. They're necessary.

15 When I was an orchard consultant, and 

16 Miles will appreciate this, when we got the 

17 coddling moth mating disruptive, it enabled 

18 consumers to eat really good apples without worms. 

19 Or without a half of worm, even worse.

20 Coddling moth mating disruptive is a 

21 synthetic pesticide. That's what it is. And it's 

22 a wonderful nontoxic species specific tool that we 
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1 need.

2 There are many other tools. You saw 

3 Reed's history of the use of polysulfur. There's 

4 many, many more.

5 We need to keep these tools and sort of 

6 stop the demonization of all things synthetic. 

7 What's natural isn't always good. What's deemed

8 to be synthetic is not always bad.

9 That's about really all I have to say 

10 about that. Let's keep the tools and the farmers 

11 in processors' hands so that we can grow organic 

12 and not leave it as imperfect.

13 Last two things. I was glad to see that 

14 the recommendation that the CAC made. Our first 

15 recommendation for standardized certificates is 

16 now going to happen ten years later. That's 

17 wonderful, glad to see it.

18 And also, as a co-author of Soul of 

19 Soil, hydroponics is a very interesting, wonderful 

20 agricultural tool. It has no place in organics. 

21 Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Joe, for 
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1 your comments. Questions, comments? Much 

2 appreciated, thank you.

3 Next speaker is Larry Plesent of 

4 Vermont Soap. And he'll be followed by Frans 

5 Wielemaker.

6 MR. PLESENT: Good morning. Welcome 

7 to Vermont. And thank you for this opportunity to 

8 speak with you for three minutes.

9 My name is Larry Plesent and I am chief 

10 formulator and CEO of the Vermont Soap Company 

11 right here in Middlebury, Vermont. I did not 

12 travel thousands of miles to get here.

13 I have a great job. My job is to 

14 replace yucky stuff with yummy stuff. We see 

15 ourselves as making food for your skin. All right.

16 Since 2003 Vermont Soap has been a 

17 certified organic processor. We specialize in 

18 topical body, pet and cleaning products. We have 

19 brought to market over 100, over 100, certified 

20 organic products.

21 Including pet shampoo, the world's 

22 first organic shower gel. Soap based shower gel. 
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1 Spray cleaners, foaming hand soap and even an 

2 airplane, windscreen installation lubricant made 

3 with organic oils.

4 Vermont Soap supports the re-listing of 

5 sodium hydroxide, and its cousin potassium 

6 hydroxide, with the following comments. Even 

7 though literally a thousand topical use products 

8 have been certified to USDA organic food standards, 

9 no mention of this use of organic agricultural 

10 feedstock is made on the NOSB allowables list. 

11 We're kind of the black sheep of organics right now.

12 We, personal care products formulators 

13 using organic ingredients, seek clarification and 

14 guidance as we continue to bring to market new 

15 topical organics. We need some guidance here 

16 guys.

17 And the area crying for clarification 

18 is in fact the use of sodium and potassium 

19 hydroxide. Which is up for re-listing. Which we 

20 support.

21 Sodium hydroxide is used to transform, 

22 to actually crystalize organic oils, which make you 
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1 dirty, into organic soap, which makes you clean. 

2 No sodium hydroxide, no measurable sodium 

3 hydroxide, remains in the vital product.

4 Now this is the definition of a 

5 processing aid. And in fact I will read the FDA 

6 definition, one of the definitions, of a processing 

7 aid.

8 Definition number three. Number 

9 three, a substance processing aid. A substance 

10 that is added to a food for its technical or 

11 functional effect in the processing, but is present 

12 in the finished food at insignificant levels and 

13 the residual does not have any technical or 

14 functional effect on the food.

15 So in other words, we're having a 

16 functional effect on the food. In this case, 

17 organic coconut oil for example, to make organic 

18 coconut oil soap.

19 I'll read a second definition. This is 

20 the FDA's 21 CFR Part 173. Secondary direct food 

21 additives, which is a kind of processing aid.

22 These are substances whose 
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1 functionality is required during the manufacturing 

2 or processing of a food and is not present in the 

3 finished product. So therefore, to get right to 

4 the point, and I thank you for this, so therefore, 

5 to remedy this situation, I ask the Board to draft 

6 a recommendation to NOP for guidance for certifiers 

7 in the industry.

8 The guidance would clarify that sodium 

9 and potassium hydroxide, when used to make 

10 certified organic soap, meets the NOP definition 

11 of a processing aid, thus allowing the potential 

12 to create 95 percent organic soap products.

13 Because potassium and sodium hydroxide 

14 cannot be pulled out of the final ingredient, like 

15 --

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Can I shut you off?

17 MR. PLESENT: -- like raisins from 

18 granola --

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right.

20 MR. PLESENT: -- we ask that it be 

21 classified as a processing aid. And I thank you 

22 very much.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, that was a 

2 very clear presentation. Do we have questions or 

3 comments? Do you want to, you don't want to make 

4 a comment? Okay. Good, thanks very much, Larry.

5 MR. PLESENT: Thank you.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next presenter 

7 is Frans Wielemaker. And he'll be followed by Luis 

8 Monge.

9 MR. WIELEMAKER: Thank you Chairman 

10 and Michelle. Thank you for giving me the 

11 opportunity to address the NOSB Board and this 

12 distinguished audience. And yes, once again it's 

13 ethylene that I'm going to talk about.

14 Let me introduce myself. My name is 

15 Frans Wielemaker and today I'm an independent 

16 consultant. I have worked banana and pineapple 

17 growers in Mexico, Central and South America and 

18 the Caribbean in R&D, production, quality, 

19 marketing and organic certification for the last 

20 36 years.

21 I'm here today specifically petition 

22 for the continued views of ethylene for banana 
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1 ripening and handling in the 205.605(b) category. 

2 Which has already been endorsed by the 

3 subcommittee. We've also sent in a written 

4 petition.

5 I will here also reach out to my 

6 pineapple friends who, as you know from the 

7 sessions from yesterday, also want ethylene to stay 

8 on the list for crop production. I also want to 

9 make this lobby for the organic retailers and the 

10 organic consumers in general. We need bananas and 

11 pineapples to stay in stores as an organic option.

12 I sort of feel responsible for ethylene 

13 being on the list, because I petitioned for it in 

14 2001. We had a few struggles over the last 12 

15 years, but I didn't think it would become an issue 

16 again.

17 In fact, it's frightening to see that 

18 every five years we have to come here and fight for 

19 our livelihoods again. We need security and 

20 continued approval over sensual inputs.

21 Ethylene is a natural substance. And 

22 it's precisely ethylene that we need to ripen fruit 
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1 and initiate flowering in pineapple.

2 So you can see how simple a molecule 

3 ethylene actually is. And when you go to 

4 Wikipedia, you can read about it. And it's one of 

5 the most essential plant hormones that exist.

6 Since the approval of ethylene, or 

7 since the approval of the NOP rules and ethylene 

8 got approved, the banana and pineapple industry has 

9 boomed. Today organic banana farms and organic 

10 pineapple farms have increased production to about 

11 28 million boxes of bananas and three million 

12 cartoons of pineapples.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So --

14 MR. WIELEMAKER: Organic bananas were 

15 hardly available in stores 15 years ago. Today 

16 they are in every self-respecting store.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. You're 

18 wrapping up how?

19 MR. WIELEMAKER: Yes.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes? Okay.

21 MR. WIELEMAKER: And Luis Monge will 

22 continue.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thank you 

2 very much. Are there any questions? Any 

3 questions? Nope. Thanks very much. Much 

4 appreciated.

5 The next speaker is Luis Monge. 

6 Followed by Christopher Anderson. 

7 MR. MONGE: It's good to be back. I 

8 lost Day 4 presenting meetings. I lost my hair 

9 too. And I'm the same guy that showed the 

10 pineapples and the bananas to you guys.

11 My name is Luis Monge. Now I'm living 

12 in Peru. I'm a regional for Costa Rica. I'm 

13 running a new organic banana exporting company in 

14 Peru.

15 Why do we want the continual lecithin 

16 for banana ripening. Bananas are a climatory 

17 fruit, which will not ripen easily when still 

18 hanging on the banana tree. At least not until 

19 fully grown. And if harvested at that late stage, 

20 an unworkable green life period remains for 

21 shipping.

22 Bananas are harvested to enable to 
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1 transport them over large distances to the market. 

2 At the arrival they are put in a room into which 

3 while regulated temperature and humidity, ethylene 

4 gas is injected in a controlled way to reach a level 

5 to 0.05 to 0.1 percent of the air content.

6 The ethylene gas, while circulating, 

7 goes through all the back banana in boxes and 

8 figures a natural ripening and processing in order 

9 to have them ripen uniformly to a yellow stage 

10 number two. At which -- sorry, at the same time 

11 to be delivered to the stores.

12 This procedure is used around the world 

13 in less and modern ripening facilities for both 

14 conventional and organic bananas. Mangos, 

15 avocados and citrus are also de-greened in a 

16 similar fashion.

17 In mostly poorer countries, where this 

18 ethylene gas technique is using a ripening room, 

19 is not used. Ripening is done by spraying or 

20 dipping bananas in a bath which has ethephon added.

21 Which is a true synthetic or even with 

22 calcium carbide. Which is also a synthetic. And 
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1 which emits acetylene, which is the only other 

2 molecule that also ripens bananas.

3 So non-synthetic alternatives to 

4 ethylene exist, and we are glad they don't. As it 

5 will make the process unnatural.

6 Ethylene gas has been used for banana 

7 ripening since the early '60's. I wasn't born yet. 

8 And if operated correctly, nobody has even become 

9 sick or have there been health issues reported. 

10 In fact, it is my opinion that ethylene 

11 will never again come to a sunset issue, because 

12 it is, all it is, is a synthetically produced 

13 natural. A category which is not in the vocabulary 

14 of the NOSB, yet, but it should. At least for this 

15 particular use of ethylene.

16 Finally, and to finish my presentation, 

17 I want to thank the OTA, the EOIA and the OPWC for 

18 their support for the continued use of ethylene for 

19 both mentioned uses as they have petitioned in 

20 favor.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

22 for your comments, Luis. Are there questions? 
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1 Yes, Mac?

2 MEMBER STONE: Luis, when you were here 

3 a few years ago on the pineapple issue, if a grower 

4 grows out of organic pineapple production, how 

5 involved is chemical input in conventional

6 pineapples?

7 MR. MONGE: Thank you, Mac. Well 

8 first of all I don't consider myself a pineapple 

9 grower. Pineapple growers are sitting there. 

10 And a firsthand answer will much better be an answer 

11 by them.

12 But in my opinion, well pineapple, a 

13 conventional cultivation is a high input. The 

14 plane, activity. In fact, it's a whole different 

15 world.

16 And all kind of allowed synthetic, a 

17 molecule that's safe. Molecules, I mean 

18 convention. The convention are used for sure. 

19 Meaning insecticide, herbicide, a fungicide, 

20 everything.

21 And so it will be a whole different work 

22 for a farmer to come or to go from organic to 
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1 conventional. That is not meaning that they are 

2 going to be unsafe by the way.

3 I mean a pineapple cultivation, at 

4 least in Costa Rica, is a very regulated industry. 

5 That is a whole different thing.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

7 for your comments. Much appreciated.

8 MR. MONGE: Welcome.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

10 Christopher Anderson. And he'll be followed by

11 Jennie Landry.

12 All right, that person already has 

13 gone. Jennie Landry, are you here? Jennie? 

14 Okay, you're up next. And Jennie will be followed 

15 by Jeffrey Bogusz.

16 MS. LANDRY: My name is Jennie Landry. 

17 I represent DSM Nutritional Products. The world's 

18 global leader in production of omega-3 EPA and DHA 

19 based products.

20 DSM strongly recommends a re-listing of 

21 fish oil to the national list as non-organically 

22 produced ingredient in or on processed products 
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1 labeled as organic.

2 Omega-3 fatty acids, primarily EPA and 

3 DHA, benefit human health by contributing to 

4 healthy brain development and reducing the risk of 

5 cardiovascular disease. Evidence supporting 

6 these benefits span past four plus decades and 

7 remains favorable.

8 Organic consumers recognize the 

9 benefits provided by omega-3 EPA, DHA from fish 

10 oil. And should have access to products made with 

11 non-organically produced fish oil. Since organic 

12 fish oil currently does not exist.

13 Fish oil is a naturally sourced value 

14 added byproduct of the fish meal and edible canning 

15 industries. It is highly inaccurate to suggest 

16 that fish oil production will contribute to global 

17 extinction of the fish species as fish are not 

18 caught for their oil.

19 As for the fisheries themselves, the 

20 FAO publication referenced in the subcommittee's 

21 fish oil recommendation overall generalizes the 

22 state of the fisheries. It would be more accurate 
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1 to look at individual stocks, countries and fishery 

2 regions.

3 DSM only sources fish oil from 

4 government regulated fisheries where provisions 

5 are in place to protect fish stocks. The Peruvian 

6 anchovy fishery produces the most fish oil 

7 worldwide. And is also the most highly regulated 

8 and sustainable fisheries in the world.

9 There have also been statements made 

10 that the health risk from the consumption of fish 

11 oil may outweigh the benefits of omega-3's in fish 

12 oil. This is highly inaccurate and 

13 unsubstantiated.

14 There are several recommendations from 

15 health authorities internationally supporting the 

16 consumption of fish and fish oils for their health 

17 benefits.

18 According to the dangerous goods 

19 advisory council, neither the risk, the mercury nor 

20 organic pollutants outweigh the benefits of 

21 seafood consumption. Therefore, if there was 

22 minimal risk, with regards to consumption of fish, 
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1 fish oil is far less of a concern because modern 

2 technology reduces the level of contaminants far 

3 below the levels that would be present in fish.

4 The global organization for EPA and DHA 

5 sets contaminates limits based on the strictest 

6 global regulations where -- which are mandatory for 

7 coed members.

8 Finally, to touch on the topic of 

9 organic alternatives. It has been suggested that 

10 flax and chia seed oils could be considered 

11 alternatives because they contain relatively high 

12 sources of omega-3 fatty acids.

13 It's crucial to know that the 

14 predominate form of omega-3 in these sources is 

15 ALA. ALA has not been proven to demonstrate the 

16 same level of benefits as EPA and DHA.

17 And while ALA can be converted to EPA 

18 and DHA in the body, the rate of conversion is 

19 highly inefficient. Therefore a marine based 

20 omega-3's are the most economical choice.

21 In closing, DSM strongly recommends 

22 re-listing fish oil to the national list. As a 
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1 leading producer in omega-3 products, we 

2 understand that protecting out marine environment 

3 is crucial and are committed to sustainability now 

4 and in the future.

5 We have leading technologies that 

6 deliver safe and reliable products and trust that 

7 health benefits are scientifically valid and 

8 substantiated. Thanks.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. You 

10 have a question, Tom?

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. We received 

12 several comments questioning the necessity of fish 

13 oil. Particularly fish oil being incorporated 

14 into products where it's not inherent.

15 For example, milk glorified with fish 

16 oil. Can you respond to those concerns?

17 MS. LANDRY: It's true that you don't 

18 need fish oil in order to make milk or butter. It's 

19 not a requirement to make those products.

20 But we feel that the benefits of omega-3 

21 EPA and DHA are well recognized. And organic 

22 consumers are looking for healthy products as well.
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1 And we'd like to potentially benefit 

2 from omega-3's. And so they should have the choice 

3 to choose those products if they are interested.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Question from Lisa.

5 MEMBER DE LIMA: So is all of your oil 

6 coming exclusively from Peruvian waters?

7 MS. LANDRY: It's not 100 percent 

8 exclusive, but that is where the majority of our 

9 fish oil is sourced from.

10 MEMBER DE LIMA: So where would the 

11 remaining come from?

12 MS. LANDRY: I don't have the specifics 

13 on hand. It's a natural product, so there are 

14 fluctuations in terms of profiles that we're 

15 looking for, for EPA and DHA.

16 We have sourced within the same fishery 

17 region. All of our sources we evaluate for 

18 sustainability. And have to meet minimum 

19 requirements no matter where it's sourced.

20 MEMBER DE LIMA: And are your 

21 sustainability requirements set by a third party 

22 or those are set internally?
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1 MS. LANDRY: They are analyzed based on 

2 the individual fisheries, the regulations that are 

3 in place in those fisheries. And are evaluated to 

4 those standards.

5 MEMBER DE LIMA: Have you all looked at 

6 algae as an alternative? Not just flax or chia.

7 MS. LANDRY: Not specifically for this 

8 instant for fish oil. There is algal oil that 

9 could be used as a substitute under the nutrium 

10 vitamin mineral category.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

12 for your comments.

13 MS. LANDRY: Thank you.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Much appreciated. 

15 The next speaker is Jeffrey Bogusz. And he'll be 

16 followed by Phil LaRocca.

17 And just a quick sort of time check 

18 here, obviously we're not going to be finishing at 

19 noon. I'd like to take all of the public comment 

20 speakers before we break for lunch. So we have 16 

21 more to go, including Jeffrey.

22 MR. BOGUSZ: Good morning. I'm Jeff 
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1 Bogusz and I work for the Ferrara Candy Company. 

2 We're a manufacturer of gummy bears and fruit 

3 snacks.

4 Just began making organic versions in

5 August. And at this point in time there are 

6 several items integral to our brands that are not 

7 available in organic form. Others have limited 

8 availability or problematic functionality.

9 Gelatin, pectin, agar, citric acid, 

10 carnauba wax, shellac, flavors and colors are 

11 currently all justified as being on the list. And 

12 I want to take my three minutes to talk about 

13 colors.

14 I've heard from some that -- someone 

15 said the comment, I can go to any Walmart in the 

16 United States and buy organic grapes. Surely 

17 there are enough organic grapes for making colors. 

18 That sounds wonderful, however there is more to it 

19 than that.

20 The varieties that are grown for color 

21 specific applications tend to be different than 

22 those grown for food. They're not selected based 
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1 upon flavors, they're selected based upon the color 

2 yield.

3 And then there's also other unique 

4 things like, for example beets. There are some 

5 varieties that produce a color that works well in 

6 a low pH product, like yogurt. There are some 

7 variety of beets that produce that color that works 

8 better in a high pH product, like a bakery product. 

9 So there's a lot of individuality here among the 

10 varieties grown.

11 In the case of perennials, it would be 

12 possible for production to move to organic within 

13 one year. But for items like grapes and cherries, 

14 it will take at least three years to develop an 

15 organic supply, if there isn't something in the 

16 works right now to transition that.

17 In addition, the color yield from 

18 organic crops I've heard is constantly lower than 

19 conventional. And when I've challenged people as 

20 to why and for specifics, I haven't really gotten 

21 what I consider an adequate response.

22 What I think that this is more is almost 
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1 fear. It's a matter of people aren't familiar 

2 growing these crops on a large enough basis to know 

3 what the yields truly are.

4 And when it comes down to it, I think 

5 that what we really need is more time. So what I'm 

6 going to suggest is that you go ahead and 

7 pre-approve all of the colors that are on the list 

8 right now, but then instead of waiting five years 

9 to review them again, review them in two or three.

10 Then things that look promising, and 

11 there are several that are promising, could 

12 potentially be removed from the list in two or three 

13 years. But that gives industry three to four years 

14 to actually prove the systems out and develop the 

15 supply, have multiple crop years to prove that the 

16 best ways in order to do that, before it's actually 

17 a specific requirement.

18 This added time is also going to allow 

19 producers like us to change our labels, if 

20 necessary, or to use up old packaging before a 

21 change is actually required.

22 As it is right now, as I see it, I've 
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1 talked to many color manufacturers and they tell 

2 stories of a customer anticipating a large demand 

3 for a color and then actually being stuck with that 

4 color when the actual demand doesn't materialize. 

5 So they're a little bit shy in terms of actually 

6 going ahead and exploring their options.

7 Having a larger time window would be 

8 great for everybody involved and will get things 

9 off the national list sooner.

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Jeff. 

11 Any questions for Jeff? Tom?

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Briefly. Can you, I 

13 know you guys are fairly new to organic. I think 

14 you said the last nine months or so. Can you 

15 briefly explain your efforts to source organic 

16 colors?

17 MR. BOGUSZ: So in terms of organic 

18 colors, we have looked at several options. 

19 Organic red carrot are actually the most promising 

20 for us. But the supplier that we're dealing with 

21 has a very limited supply this crop year. I'm 

22 expecting that we're going to be using red carrots 
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1 next crop year.

2 Orange carrot has actually been a 

3 relatively unique experience with our product. 

4 We've actually had problems with it actually 

5 developing a metallic sheen on our finished product 

6 that we don't quite understand. Sometimes it 

7 happens and sometimes it doesn't. And are kind of 

8 working with our supplier to understand that.

9 And have also evaluated organic 

10 turmeric. And actually could use that but aren't 

11 necessarily all the time. Because of availability 

12 constraints in a turmeric that has been washed to 

13 a level where the color or the flavor isn't going 

14 to be, have an impact in our product. So sometimes 

15 we're using organic turmeric and sometimes we're 

16 not.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any other questions 

19 for Jeff? Thank you. Next up is Phil LaRocca. 

20 Followed by Bill, excuse me, Beth Unger.

21 MR. LaROCCA: Good morning. My name 

22 is Phil LaRocca. And I have been an organic farmer 
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1 for 44 years.

2 The last 32 I've been the owner and wine 

3 maker of LaRocca Vineyards. And I also sit as the 

4 Chairman of the Board of Directors for CCOF.

5 I want to start by encouraging this 

6 Board to be vigilant on the GMO issue. The organic 

7 farmer seems to be put in a position of always 

8 having to defend themself.

9 And I felt earlier that Will Allen 

10 answered Zea's question of, what we need to do, 

11 quite well when he responded by saying, I think we 

12 need to have the NOP put pressure on the USDA. And 

13 the best way to do this is to put pressure on the 

14 aggressor by some kind of fine or penalty.

15 People tell me, well this will never 

16 happen. However, we have this, an attitude that 

17 it never will happen, it never will happen.

18 But for the sake of the organic farmer 

19 and the sake for the organic community, we have to 

20 do something about this pollution that we're seeing 

21 in the organic industry.

22 With that, briefly I want to add 
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1 something. We need to also promote, which we do 

2 at CCOF, that the USDA organic does mean non-GMO.

3 Recently our company, we sold some bulk 

4 product and the company wanted not only our proof 

5 of certification, but our non-GMO verification. 

6 And so we had to argue, a waste of time.

7 And finally we blew up our CCOF logo 

8 which says, organic non-GMO and more. We finally 

9 convinced them that being certified organic also 

10 means non-GMO. We don't need a separate 

11 certification.

12 My next point, I'm going fast, is, 

13 Miles, thank you for your eloquent introduction 

14 yesterday. Especially regarding enforcement.

15 Because at CCOF we voted unanimously to 

16 get rid of the state organic program. Felt by our 

17 California organic farmers that the excess fee and 

18 excess paperwork did not give us our bang for our 

19 buck. That there were still problems going on.

20 The argument that people were giving us 

21 was that you need them for enforcement. But after 

22 hearing the fabulous job that the NOP is doing, I 
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1 am more than ever convinced that we do not need this 

2 California State program.

3 For those on the Board that aren't 

4 familiar, we are the only state that has this 

5 program. And quite frankly, I look at it as an 

6 organic tax. Instead of being rewarded with what 

7 we do, we have this extra tax that we have to pay.

8 My third point, which I will just want 

9 to end with, I think, on a very positive note, is 

10 that we have what's called the Bricmont Leadership, 

11 excuse me, Bricmont Hardship Assistance Fund.

12 As far as I know, we are the only

13 organization in the country that is offering monies 

14 for hardship victims that are certified organic 

15 farms. And you do not have to be CCOF certified, 

16 but you do need to be certified.

17 And this is across the country. We 

18 have extended our period of sign up because of the 

19 recent disasters. We have people coming in 

20 basically for flood, fire. Obviously the drought.

21 The best way to get more information on 

22 this is to go to ccof.org Bricmont, 
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1 B-R-I-C-M-O-N-T, Hardship Fund. And this is open 

2 to everybody here.

3 Please take advantage of it. It's one 

4 of the greatest things that we do at CCOF, I think. 

5 Thank you.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

7 much, Phil. Questions? From the Board Members. 

8 No questions. Thanks, Phil.

9 The next presenter is Beth Unger. And 

10 she'll be followed by Ron Rosmann.

11 MS. UNGER: Good morning. I'm Beth 

12 Unger. I'm here representing CROPP. It's a 

13 farmer owned certified organic cooperative that 

14 markets products under the Organic Valley and the 

15 Organic Prairie labels. We do nothing but organic 

16 products.

17 I really appreciate the fact that you 

18 did those webinars this year. That was pretty 

19 awesome. And I, you know, I listened in on both 

20 of them. I was very interested to hear all the 

21 comments.

22 And I want to point to one of the 
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1 comments that I felt was very eloquent. It 

2 followed up on some very complete written comments. 

3 And that would be by Paul Browner of DSM.

4 He commented on the use of the fish oil. 

5 And answered, I thought, very well the questions 

6 that the Board had presented regarding the fish 

7 oil.

8 We are, of course, are in support of it. 

9 And I will say that we are in support of it because 

10 we have a line of milk that has omega fortification 

11 through fish oil that we do because we have health 

12 conscious consumers who want it. The consumers 

13 want it.

14 It's not because, you know, it's like, 

15 oh, that's a great idea. No, they want it.

16 The other topic is my old favorite, 

17 bacon. Celery powder needs to stay on the list. 

18 We heard you loud and clear. And we are taking a 

19 lot of actions on that.

20 You're going to hear from some experts, 

21 I am no expert, believe me. But DSM or Kerry 

22 Ingredients is an expert. And they will be up here 
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1 to testify in a little bit.

2 And they, you know, they've done a lot 

3 of work, as the other supplier has, in terms of 

4 doing trials and looking for ways to do this with 

5 an organic vegetable.

6 But organic process needs are a very 

7 important part of meat farmer's livelihood. It's 

8 a way to use the entire animal. And that celery 

9 powder is what's going to get it done.

10 We don't use sodium nitrate like Europe 

11 does. So we need that.

12 And in the meantime, you know, the OTA 

13 has graciously formed the National List Innovation 

14 Working Group. We are going to be supporters of 

15 that working group.

16 One of the top priorities on that is 

17 going to be looking for organic alternatives to 

18 celery powder. And so please keep it on 606 for 

19 another five years. Let us get the work done. And 

20 we will come back with a success story to you. 

21 That's all I have for now. Thank you very much.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 
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1 much, Beth. Question, Nick?

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. Could you talk 

3 a little bit more about what you're doing to seek 

4 alternatives? What's on the horizon, what are the 

5 prospects, what areas you're going into?

6 MS. UNGER: Nick, I'd like you to ask 

7 that question to the experts that are coming. 

8 We're a user, you know. So we don't have any other 

9 alternatives.

10 In terms of doing processed meats. And 

11 that's including the bacon, the ham, the hotdogs, 

12 the pepperoni, the beef jerky. And our new 

13 product, the mighty bars. We're using that as the 

14 so called churring agent.

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. Well I ask you 

16 advisedly, because I'm also a livestock producer 

17 and produce livestock products. Including things 

18 like sausage and jerky. And we don't use it. But, 

19 you know, we do other things.

20 So I'm just trying to figure out where 

21 your critical needs are. Is it more useful in, 

22 let's say pork than it is in beef?
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1 Are there ways that you can minimize 

2 your reliance on the celery powder now? That's 

3 where I'm trying to go with it.

4 MS. UNGER: Yes. You know, I'm also 

5 not a food scientist. But there -- it's used for 

6 a number of reasons. You know, it's that curing. 

7 And it's also a food safety and, you know.

8 So you're looking for the technical and 

9 functional effects. And also, you know, the 

10 expectation of a bacon or a ham. Sorry, I wish I 

11 could give you more about that.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, maybe some of 

13 the other ones coming after you could do.

14 MS. UNGER: Yes.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great, thanks very 

16 much, Beth. Oh, sorry Zea.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, Beth. 

18 You, in your written comments, you put a dollar 

19 value on your sales of the fish oil fortified milk. 

20 But I'm more interested in what percentage of the 

21 overall milk sales is the fish oil fortified milk 

22 or is it, you know, how many consumers? One in ten 
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1 consumers, one in three, one in, you know, a 

2 percentage as overall milk.

3 MS. UNGER: I cannot give you an 

4 accurate answer. I would say it's a relatively low 

5 percentage.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: So it's small 

7 compared to your general milk sales?

8 MS. UNGER: Yes. That would be 

9 correct.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tom? Sorry, Beth. 

12 You got one more, Beth.

13 MS. UNGER: Oh, I do?

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I have two questions. 

15 Sorry. Can you also address the question I asked 

16 a little bit earlier about necessity of fish oil 

17 in products that don't have it inherently in 

18 formulation?

19 So we've received a public comment 

20 about whether fish oil is actually necessary and 

21 meets the alpha criteria around necessity when it's 

22 used in applications where it's not inherent to the 
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1 product. Like milk fortified with fish oil.

2 MS. UNGER: Okay, I need a little 

3 clarification, Tom. Are you asking about why fish 

4 oil and not algal oil? Is that your question?

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I'm asking how you --

6 why you think it's necessary.

7 MS. UNGER: It's not necessary. It's 

8 a consumer preference. You know, it's a line that 

9 is out there for the folks that really want to have 

10 the omega fortification in their products.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay. And then I 

12 have another question. Can I ask you about sodium 

13 phosphate? You commented on that in your written 

14 comments.

15 MS. UNGER: Yes. Yes. And so on the 

16 sodium phosphate, basically I wanted to answer your 

17 question about, is it on the label. And it is 

18 disodium phosphate is in use at one of our 

19 processing facilities in the ultra-pasteurized 

20 heavy cream.

21 And the reason that it's in there is 

22 it's about the type of processing that they're 
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1 using. And they need it for, you know, to prevent 

2 the coagulation or whatever in this tubular system. 

3 So the heavy cream that comes out of that facility 

4 clearly has that labeled on it.

5 I personally would prefer that they 

6 could switch over to a different system like all 

7 the other plants. But I think we have to be able 

8 to increase our throughput and make it reasonable 

9 for them to change their processing method.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: What would the 

11 implication be on your business that sodium 

12 phosphate was removed? Like obviously you 

13 wouldn't be able to use that plant, is that, you 

14 know, what's the --

15 MS. UNGER: Well, you know, we would 

16 either not be able to produce that product at that 

17 plant or the plant would have to come to the 

18 realization that they need to change their 

19 processing method.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

21 much, Beth. Next speaker is Curtis Bennett. And 

22 he'll be followed by Seth Gardner.
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1 Oh, I'm sorry. I did I skip Ron? Look 

2 at that. So I've got Ron Rosmann and then Curtis 

3 Bennett.

4 MR. ROSMANN: Thank you, Jean. My 

5 name is Ron Rosmann and I'm here on behalf of 

6 Organic Prairie.

7 My wife Maria and I are certified 

8 organic crop and livestock farmers near Harlan, 

9 Iowa in the western part of the state. We've been 

10 certified on our crops since 1994. Our beef since 

11 '98, our pork since 2004. And we quit using all 

12 pesticides in 1983. And I'm one of the founding 

13 board members of the Practical Farmers of Iowa.

14 We farmed 700 acres along with two of 

15 our three sons. And we are very lucky and blessed 

16 to have two of our three sons farming with us.

17 We also operate a nearly mostly organic 

18 restaurant in our local community of 5,000. And 

19 we have a retail store on our farm. And also a farm 

20 table delivery service picking up produce from 

21 Western Iowa and Eastern Nebraska farmers. So we 

22 have a lot on our plate.
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1 But I'll have to say, I've learned more 

2 about celery powder in one week than I've known in 

3 my 65 years of living, prior to this. And that's 

4 not saying much. There's a lot to learn.

5 So we have 90 cows about and 40 to 50 

6 sows. But we also have our own meat label 

7 business, Rosmann Family Farms. So this concerns 

8 us not only as a member of a Co-op, but our own 

9 business.

10 So we really have the best of both 

11 worlds as far as business model goals. And our own 

12 business is thriving and expanding. 

13 Dramatically.

14 But why do I think this is important to 

15 keep celery powder? Well in Organic Prairie, 55 

16 percent of all the organic pork uses celery powder 

17 in its products. And as a food -- as a 

18 preservative.

19 And as Beth pointed out, Kerry 

20 Ingredients will be up here soon to talk about how 

21 they've been experimenting with organic celery 

22 powder and other vegetable alternatives. It 
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1 appears to me at this time that the nitrate levels 

2 are not consistent enough in organic celery powder 

3 to keep the meat safe compared to conventional 

4 commercial celery powder.

5 This may be due to the high levels of 

6 nitrogen fertilizers used in conventional celery. 

7 But the research thus far has shown that to have 

8 acceptable levels of nitrates, large amounts of 

9 organic celery and other vegetables have to be 

10 used, which gives the meat, the vegetable, an 

11 undesirable taste.

12 So we need more time. More time is 

13 going to be needed to research alternatives to 

14 develop organic ingredients for acceptable levels 

15 of meat preservation.

16 The sunset of conventional celery 

17 powder would have a devastating effect on the 

18 organic meat industry. Much less of the carcass 

19 would be able to be utilized and profitability 

20 would lessen dramatically for the cooperative and 

21 for growers such as ourselves. Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 
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1 much. Questions? Yes, Nick?

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, Ron, good to see 

3 you here. Do you use the celery powder in your 

4 private label? In Rosmann Family Farm. Do you 

5 use the celery powder?

6 MR. ROSMANN: No we do not. Because 

7 unfortunately, even though we have a certified 

8 organic pork operation with our own label, our 

9 local slaughtering plant is not willing to go 

10 organic, so we do not label our meat as certified 

11 organic. Of course people know that it is.

12 So if you take away conventional celery 

13 powder, we are looking into shipping our bacon and 

14 hams about 130 miles to Central Iowa, to get them 

15 made into celery powder bacon.

16 The logistics of that, well won't be 

17 very much fun of course. Maybe we can use our farm 

18 table delivery service. But we are looking into 

19 it.

20 So if you take celery powder away now, 

21 it's going to be even harder to do that. It's going 

22 to take time. And I fully understand and 
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1 appreciate that we have to keep the organic, both 

2 the organic integrity and the meat safety 

3 integrity, of all meats.

4 We just heard about it yesterday. 

5 About meat being a carcinogen in the popular press. 

6 But do we want to go back to salt pork as the only 

7 way to preserve meat? I don't think so.

8 And like you say in your business, you 

9 don't need celery powder for jerky or for sausage, 

10 but you do need it for hams and bacon. And you know 

11 bacon is, the demand for bacon is increasing 

12 dramatically in this country. So we got to figure 

13 out how to keep the organic integrity and the meat 

14 safety of it.

15 It's just going to, like Beth said, 

16 we're going to deliver, it's just going to take some 

17 more time.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, Mac?

19 MEMBER STONE: Ron, if you're now a 

20 celery powder expert this week, do you know whether 

21 they're using off grade celery to make this or are 

22 they growing it specifically for the powder?
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1 MR. ROSMANN: I have just learned from 

2 Kerry Ingredients last evening, that they grow it 

3 specifically for the powder, not for human 

4 consumption.

5 So that's a whole different -- and it's 

6 grown mostly in South America and in Europe. So 

7 that there would be a whole different list of 

8 growing protocols needed as well.

9 You know, it's just not like you go out 

10 and use any organic celery for human consumption 

11 and do this. It's more complicated than that.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, Jennifer?

13 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you so much for 

14 your presentation.

15 MR. ROSMANN: You're welcome.

16 MEMBER TAYLOR: I just had a question. 

17 What do you think has minimized the process and the 

18 change previous to now?

19 Why do you think that the change has 

20 been stagnant on the part of the growers or on the 

21 part of the processors or wherever that change can 

22 take place?
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1 What do you think has been the hindrance 

2 thus far?

3 MR. ROSMANN: Well I think it's been 

4 tough to develop sales for organic pork, for 

5 instance, in general. Organic Prairie, you know, 

6 there's not many companies producing organic, 

7 making organic pork available.

8 There's very few small producers even 

9 curing their own products. So that's one issue.

10 I think Organic Prairie and Kerry 

11 Ingredients could better answer the question as to 

12 why, you know, the specific use of different 

13 preservatives is the way it is. I don't have any 

14 good knowledge on that part of it.

15 But I can say after being an Organic 

16 Prairie producer for many, many years now, getting 

17 the organic meat business going on a large scale, 

18 where you can utilize the whole carcass, which we 

19 do have to do to be profitable and to be profitable 

20 for the livestock farmers, that's the first goal.

21 So, you know, we need more livestock in 

22 organic farm operations, there's no doubt about it. 
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1 Because of the beauty of the integrated system.

2 So why it's lagging? Good question. 

3 I can't really fully answer that.

4 MEMBER TAYLOR: Okay.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

6 much, Ron.

7 MR. ROSMANN: You bet.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

9 Curtis Bennett. And he'll be followed by Seth 

10 Gardner.

11 MR. BENNETT: Hi, thank you. My name 

12 is Curtis Bennett. I represent Clarkson Soy 

13 Products.

14 We are the pioneer of organic lecithin. 

15 We began the organic lecithin journey in 1999. And 

16 first made it commercially available in 2004.

17 Not one company in this room can 

18 honestly say they have tried to purchase de-oiled 

19 organic lecithin from Clarkson and not had the 

20 order filled completely.

21 Commercial availability criteria must 

22 be redefined. Every certifier in this room knows 
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1 de-oiled organic lecithin is available and yet they 

2 grant waivers every day to their clients to evade 

3 paying more.

4 Unfair to companies that follow the 

5 intent of their organic ingredients available, you 

6 must use it and compete for shelf space with 

7 companies granted waivers to use the rabbit holes 

8 in 205.605 and 606. Unfair to organic consumers 

9 who are unaware the product they are consuming with 

10 the USDA organic logo contains volatile solvents.

11 Why was organic de-oiled lecithin so 

12 easily dismissed by the Handling Subcommittee at 

13 the spring meeting in La Jolla, to sunset. Isn't 

14 it the goal and the job of the NOSB and the NOP to 

15 remove items from the allowed list once they become 

16 available?

17 Subcommittee voting must stop. The 

18 entire NOSB must vote and be heard. I ask the NOP 

19 to sunset all lecithins now and in the future.

20 Only if the rabbit holes are filled will 

21 you stop over expecting to evade paying more for 

22 organic ingredients.
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1 If pioneers who see 205.605 and 606 as 

2 opportunities are not rewarded, no settlers will 

3 follow. We feel it's the responsibility of the 

4 NOSB and NOP to remove items, not continually add 

5 to them.

6 Do we know when -- where soy is? 

7 There's a lot of talk about an allergen. 

8 Everyone's heard of the big eight allergen list.

9 Do you know where soy is on that list? 

10 It's not number one, it's not number two, it's not 

11 number three, it's not number four, it's not number 

12 five, it's number six.

13 Number one is peanuts. Number two is 

14 tree nuts, followed by dairy, eggs, fish. And then 

15 you can find wheat. I forgot wheat. And then you 

16 get to soy.

17 Only two percent of the public has a soy 

18 allergy. Ninety-five percent of those people 

19 allergic to soy have some type of intestinal 

20 disorder. If they didn't have that, they wouldn't 

21 have allergic reaction.

22 They're only reaction is to the protein 
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1 in soy. Soy oil, soy lecithin, all highly filtered 

2 products do not contain the protein. So there is 

3 no allergic reaction. Thank you.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. I have 

5 two questions. Tracy and then Tom and then Zea.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Can you give me a 

7 sense of how much sunflower lecithin there is and 

8 if there are any other suppliers out there?

9 MR. BENNETT: Well, since the April 

10 meeting, there are now three different processors 

11 in the world that are moving towards making organic 

12 sunflower lecithin.

13 One is a very small facility in Ukraine 

14 that is making both liquid and powder. Followed 

15 by India, followed by China.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Next question is

17 from Tom.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Actually I have four, 

19 but they're quick. What is the marketed demand 

20 currently for organic de-oiled lecithin in terms 

21 of volume?

22 MR. BENNETT: Currently today the 
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1 volume is ten metric tons per week. If you 

2 consider the inclusion rates of lecithin in mainly 

3 baked products, baking products, cookies and so 

4 forth, use the de-oiled, it's somewhere at -- well 

5 if your using liquid lecithin it would be 0.3 in 

6 percent. Since de-oiled is a concentrate it would 

7 be something two-thirds less than that in your 

8 formulation.

9 So it is so minute, it has a lot of 

10 benefit to the product. And that's why it is such 

11 a sought-after ingredient.

12 So if you look at the sheer scale, U.S. 

13 is the biggest market, followed by Europe 

14 obviously. So --

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: And now what is your 

16 capacity to the supply of organic --

17 MR. BENNETT: Currently it's ten 

18 metric ton.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay, so what's the 

20 market demand for organic? If we were to remove 

21 this requirement and everyone had to source organic 

22 lecithin, what's the size of that market?
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1 MR. BENNETT: Well globally it's five 

2 percent of the total lecithin market. Is it 

3 de-oiled? Then you break it down from there. Do 

4 I know what the world market size is? No.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay.

6 MR. BENNETT: But I'm telling you 

7 without supporting pioneers, there will be no 

8 settlers. If you look at, when is this supposed 

9 to sunset? 2017, right.

10 So how much time do you have for 

11 settlers to get in a line? Depending on what you 

12 guys do in this room right now and what the NOP does 

13 to get in line.

14 Sure there's going to be competition. 

15 We want competition. It makes it more available 

16 and it makes the price go down, right? That's why 

17 we're here.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: One more. Can you 

19 help me understand why, I mean you keep speaking 

20 about the rabbit hole and vendors not being 

21 incentivized to switch. However, commercial 

22 availability criteria has been successful in 
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1 several cases.

2 Chia seeds the Board has unanimously, 

3 or the subcommittee has unanimously requested that 

4 get removed. Industry. Everyone's agreed that 

5 that's now available. However, that was on the 

6 national list.

7 Companies already switched to using 

8 organic chia seeds. There's several other 

9 examples. Peppers, lemongrass.

10 Why is it successful in those cases and 

11 why can it not still be successful here with 

12 lecithin?

13 MR. BENNETT: I have no idea. I wish 

14 I could answer that question.

15 I mean we first approached the NOP in 

16 2006 to ask or excuse me, the NOSB, to ask that 

17 organic lecithin be removed from 605 and 606. We 

18 failed.

19 We came back again two years later. 

20 Failed again. Came back a year later, finally got 

21 the support of the NOSB to make the recommendation.

22 The NOP did not a make the requirement 
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1 in 2012. Three and a half years ago that organic 

2 lecithin must be used. Today there are still 

3 organic certifiers allowing waivers that organic 

4 lecithin not be used.

5 The commercial availability has to be 

6 redefined. Because it is so loose right now. 

7 Every day, every day I get an email from somebody 

8 saying, hey, I need you to say that this is not 

9 available. You know, from our organic certifier.

10 If I don't write that, you know, they'll 

11 go to somebody else. They'll go to a trader, a 

12 broker, someone that they absolutely know doesn't 

13 supply this ingredient.

14 It's being followed. The criteria is 

15 being followed. They get three emails the organic 

16 certifier looks at and says, okay, everything has 

17 been filed, here's your waiver. That's how it's 

18 working now.

19 It's got to be redefined, people. This 

20 is not --

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea, you have a 

22 question?
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. Okay, 

2 you have me kind of pissed off.

3 MR. BENNETT: Well, you kind of have me 

4 pissed off too.

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'm going to try and 

6 remain civil here. But I am one of the two percent 

7 of people who is allergic to soy and peanuts and 

8 very allergic to lecithin. And I get an 

9 anaphylactic reaction when I eat soy lecithin.

10 And it has nothing to do with something 

11 else wrong with my bowels. I do get an allergic 

12 reaction, although not as severe from runny egg 

13 yolks, which are also high in lecithin.

14 So to generalize that this is only two 

15 percent of the people and that they have some bowel 

16 problem is kind of pissing me off.

17 But beyond that, besides hearing from 

18 you at the spring meeting, we heard from other 

19 testifier's who wanted sunflower lecithin and said 

20 that organic de-oiled sunflower lecithin was not 

21 commercially available. And I noticed you said 

22 there were companies moving towards supplying, but 
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1 you did not say they are currently supplying 

2 sufficient organic sunflower lecithin.

3 MR. BENNETT: One of them is.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, one company 

5 is. However, my perception from asking this 

6 question over the years is that the supply is 

7 fragile and has gone in and out of production and 

8 up and down in availability.

9 So that being said, and the being able 

10 to separate soy lecithin from sunflower lecithin 

11 in the structure of what it takes to do an 

12 annotation change, along with the rest of it, has 

13 made us put forward the re-listing proposal. We 

14 would be happy to entertain a petition to change 

15 the annotation to be from sunflower sources only 

16 after this sunset review is over.

17 But at the moment we're just not capable 

18 of doing that. And there are many other people 

19 like me, maybe two percent of the population, who 

20 really have to look for sunflower lecithin in 

21 products that we buy.

22 MR. BENNETT: I appreciate your 
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1 comment, but I disagree. Because soy lecithin is 

2 filtered. The proteins that you're allergic to 

3 are removed in the processed.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Then I'm not 

5 allergic to proteins; I'm allergic to something 

6 else in lecithin.

7 MR. BENNETT: People are only allergic 

8 to protein. Soy protein. That's the only 

9 allergen there is in soy.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Maybe we could move 

11 to the next question, I think, which is from Nick. 

12 Nick, do you have your question?

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: I think most of it 

14 has come out already.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, we are now 

16 more than one hour behind time. So we're going to 

17 be sitting here for quite a long time. So please 

18 be thoughtful about the out-of-scope questions.

19 I know all the questions are important 

20 and I don't want to shortchange anybody. But I 

21 would like to move on to the next speaker at this 

22 time. And that's Seth Gardner.
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1 MR. BENNETT: Thank you.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And Seth will be 

3 followed by Cameron Harsh. Thank you very much 

4 Curtis.

5 MR. GARDNER: I'll make this quick. 

6 My name is Seth Gardner, I'm a dairy farmer. 

7 Organic dairy farmer in East Montpelier, Vermont.

8 We milk 300 cows. We have 300 head of 

9 livestock. Six hundred head altogether. I've 

10 been organic since 2006.

11 Thank you for allowing people to 

12 comment on all these proposed changes. I just want 

13 to tell you that my goal is to speak about these 

14 various substances. My goal in my life on my farm, 

15 is to keep my animals as healthy as possible. So 

16 this is why I'm here.

17 So I'm going to go down through a list 

18 on the substances that we use or have used or 

19 potentially could use on my farm.

20 The first one I'd like to speak about 

21 is parasiticides. There's three here listed. 

22 Ivermectin, moxidectin and fenbendazole.
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1 The proposed change, it looks like to 

2 me, is ivermectin would be removed and moxidectin 

3 could be removed. And fenbendazole would be the 

4 one that would be left.

5 We've only used ivermectin on my farm. 

6 We used it last year on two animals out of 600. The 

7 reason we used ivermectin, it was available, it was 

8 an emergency, we needed it. We went to the local 

9 store, we bought it.

10 We followed all the withdrawal that was 

11 appropriate. We used it on young animals because 

12 the 90-day withdrawal on large animals of course 

13 won't work, because we're milking those cows. So 

14 we only used it on the young animals. We used it 

15 on two.

16 And I feel that the impact on the dung 

17 beetles is so minimal that that ivermectin should 

18 stay on the list. Just because it is available and 

19 the impact on the dung beetles is minimal.

20 So moxidectin is the same. They're 

21 talking about shortening withdrawal time, which is 

22 great. Then we could use it on a dairy cow.
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1 We could withhold our milk for the 

2 proposed five days, then put her back in the tank. 

3 That would be wonderful. Right now the 90 days 

4 does not work.

5 And I just want to emphasize. When we 

6 do use a parasiticide, it's only used on an 

7 emergency basis. We use all the other things on 

8 our farm to minimize any kind of parasites. We do 

9 the rotational grazing, we clean everything 

10 thoroughly, we do everything we can.

11 But in an emergency, it is fantastic to 

12 have this tool. I want to emphasize that. We need 

13 the tool. The animals, we want to keep them 

14 healthy.

15 So going down -- whoa, it's that quick. 

16 Poloxalene is the best thing for bloat. There's 

17 science that's says, well it looks like it's the 

18 best thing to use for bloat. We've used it 

19 occasional, we want to keep it on the list.

20 The procaine and the lidocaine, it says 

21 we would like -- they would like to reduce 

22 withdrawal, I'm in full support of that. Reduce 
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1 withdrawal time to five days. Science supports 

2 it, we would like to go with that.

3 And the last thing I'd really like to 

4 speak about is copper sulfate. We use it on our 

5 farm routinely. We need it for our cows. They get 

6 lame. Copper sulfate prevents lameness.

7 When dairy cows go lame, it is not good. 

8 We keep them in the barn, we trim their feet. We 

9 want to prevent lameness and copper sulfate is a 

10 fantastic tool. We need all the tools we can to 

11 keep our cows sound.

12 And the other, one of the points about 

13 the cooper sulfate is where we have too much in the 

14 soil. We don't in Vermont. It's 

15 copper-deficient.

16 We spread the manure far away. As an 

17 organic farm, we don't concentrate the manure in 

18 certain fields. We spread it in many fields all 

19 over the place. That's one of the great tools we 

20 have to improve soil fertility.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Seth. I 

22 have a question from Tracy.
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1 MR. GARDNER: Yes.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Actually I'm 

3 pulling a Tom, and it's a two-parter. The first 

4 one is, if you did not have access to ivermectin, 

5 could you use moxidectin?

6 MR. GARDNER: We could.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Is it available and 

8 could you get it on an emergency basis?

9 MR. GARDNER: I think it's available 

10 and it's a good question. It's just that 

11 ivermectin has been the most common treatment in, 

12 around our area. So that's when you can go to the 

13 store and buy it.

14 And I think moxidectin we could get it, 

15 if we had to. It's just usually on an emergency. 

16 We're like oh my God. And so we run to Tractor 

17 Supply or Agway, they have it. So that's why we 

18 buy it.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Second 

20 follow-up is about the copper sulfate.

21 MR. GARDNER: Yes.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Do you use that as 
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1 a footbath or you use it as an application for 

2 individual animals?

3 MR. GARDNER: Footbath.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay.

5 MR. GARDNER: Yes. A hoof bath is 

6 effective. And if you've ever picked up a cow's 

7 foot, you would rather have the cow walk through 

8 the copper sulfate liquid. It's much easier on 

9 everybody.

10 If you're going to start tying up cow's 

11 feet and apply the copper sulfate, time consuming, 

12 dangerous, et cetera, et cetera. You want to use 

13 it as a preventative, which means walk through it.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: And do you leave it 

15 out all the time?

16 MR. GARDNER: No. We rotate it in and 

17 out. Yes.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you.

19 MR. GARDNER: Thank you. Any other 

20 questions? 

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seth, thank you 

22 very much for an excellent and very clear 
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1 presentation. Much appreciated.

2 MR. GARDNER: Thank you very much.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. The 

4 next presenter is Cameron Harsh. And he'll be 

5 followed by Beth Jones.

6 MR. HARSH: Good morning. My name is 

7 Cameron Harsh. I'm a researcher for Center for 

8 Food Safeties Organic and Beyond Program.

9 CFS supports the removal of synthetic 

10 methionine from the national list. The continued 

11 re-listing has inhibited the pursuit of 

12 alternatives. It's removal will drive market 

13 development of non-synthetic feed as desired by our 

14 organic poultry producers CSF has spoken with.

15 The organic poultry industry has 

16 manipulated the methionine content of feed to spur 

17 high growth rates and productivity. If promoting 

18 basic healthy development is the goal, then less 

19 methionine is sufficient.

20 Research show that chicks fed diets 

21 with low non-synthetic methionine levels have 

22 lower mortality then chicks with increasing 
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1 amounts of DL-methionine.

2 Synthetic methionine rich diets 

3 resulted in greater and faster weight gain, 

4 illustrating its role as a growth promoter. 

5 Natural methionine sources are available, such as, 

6 but not limited to, rice, grapeseed, alfalfa, flax, 

7 peas, insects and whey.

8 Industry claims that none of these 

9 alone provides an adequate replacement. This 

10 argument pivots on the desire to maintain current 

11 high levels achieved with synthetic sources.

12 CFS recommends prioritizing research 

13 to ascertain methionine levels required to 

14 maintain bird health, assessing insect proteins 

15 and identifying feed formulations that combine 

16 multiple plant or animal sources.

17 Parasiticides must be used only as a 

18 last resort. Organics' emphasis on holistic whole 

19 herd health provides a strong prophylaxis against 

20 multiple animal health problems.

21 Organic regulations allow 

22 parasiticides for emergency treatment when 
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1 preventative strategies have not succeeded. 

2 Clarification is needed as to what constitutes 

3 emergency treatment and the range of preventative 

4 and natural curative options that should first be 

5 used.

6 Ivermectin should be removed from the 

7 national list due to its toxicity.

8 CFS strongly urges, sorry, CFS strongly 

9 opposes the current broad category listing of 

10 nutrient, vitamins and minerals. To permit 

11 substances that do not individually undergo the 

12 legally mandated materials review process 

13 contravenes OFPA.

14 The current listing has allowed 

15 nonessential synthetic and non-organic 

16 ingredients not on the national list, to be 

17 illegally included in organic foods. Even 

18 substances rejected by NOSB have turned up in 

19 organic infant formula and baby foods without 

20 penalty.

21 NOSB must ask NOP to clarify that all 

22 synthetic and non-organic substances must be 
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1 individually petitioned and approved by NOSB.

2 Many substances listed under 205.606 

3 are produced organically in sufficient supply, as 

4 described in further detail in CFS's written 

5 comments.

6 NOSB should remove these substances 

7 from the national list and require producers to 

8 source organic forms instead.

9 CFS supports the removal of fish oil 

10 because its production is incompatible with 

11 organic principles. Harvesting of pelagic 

12 species is contributed to global stocks being fully 

13 fished or over fished.

14 Further exploitation of vital marine 

15 resources is not an option for organic because of 

16 the unsustainable practice endangers the marine 

17 food web.

18 Contaminates in fish oil also make it 

19 incompatible with organic. Analyses of 

20 supplement samples have consistently found levels 

21 of mercury and PCDs posing an unnecessary health 

22 risk.
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1 Research also demonstrates that 

2 consuming fish oils, via supplements or processed 

3 foods, does not confer the health benefits 

4 attributed to consuming fatty and oily fish. CFS 

5 urges you to remove fish oil from the national list. 

6 Thank you.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

8 much. Questions? No questions. Thank you.

9 MR. HARSH: Thank you so much.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

11 Beth Jones. And she'll be followed by John Ashby.

12 MS. JONES: Good morning. I'm Beth 

13 Jones. I'm Dr. Jones from Kerry Ingredients. And 

14 I'm here to talk about celery powder and keeping 

15 it on the NOSB list.

16 I want to thank you for giving me this 

17 opportunity to speak to you. Kerry did submit a 

18 letter to the subcommittee earlier this year on 

19 this topic. And in that letter it was our position 

20 that we recommend that celery powder be kept on the 

21 NOP list for use in processed meats.

22 And what I want to do today, and just 
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1 take a couple minutes. And I clearly get the 

2 feeling there's a lot of questions on this.

3 So I'm going to leave a few more minutes 

4 or minute or two extra for questions that had popped 

5 up with some of the earlier speakers. And also 

6 give you more time to ask me questions.

7 What Kerry Ingredients has done over 

8 the years, and we started a lot of this work back 

9 in 2008, of looking for an organic suitable 

10 vegetable powder. And I'm using the word 

11 vegetable powder because we looked at other things 

12 other than celery.

13 There are other vegetables out there 

14 that do contain nitrates, and so we wanted to 

15 broaden that view that we were looking at and the 

16 opportunity to look at other things.

17 We've looked at celery powders, we 

18 looked at celery juices. We've looked at up to 

19 eight different suppliers of those products in 

20 organic, none of them came back consistently. And 

21 all of them did have some functionality 

22 difficulties.
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1 And I'm going to say functionality 

2 difficulties, because it's not always just the 

3 nitrate. Sometimes it is a flavor, sometimes it's 

4 a color that comes through the meat. And nobody 

5 wants to eat a green ham.

6 I mean when it comes down to reality, 

7 we have to provide a ham or processed meat that 

8 looks as the consumer wants it to look. It needs 

9 to taste like the consumer expects a ham to taste.

10 And we also need to provide the 

11 sufficient nitrate level for food safety. And I 

12 think that's one of the topics that hasn't come out 

13 earlier this morning, is the food safety component.

14 And that's really where the consistency 

15 must come in on the raw material coming into an 

16 ingredient supplier like Kerry. So we can provide 

17 a consistent product to the meat processor so they 

18 know that they have the food safety in their 

19 product. And I think that's a topic that does need 

20 to come out.

21 Some of the other products that we have 

22 looked at, some of the other vegetables. We've 
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1 looked at spinach, Swiss chard, bok choy, kale, 

2 cucumber, yellow beet, lettuce powder and red beet. 

3 Again, they all had issues with either not being 

4 able to provide consistency or they had flavor 

5 defects in the final processed meat.

6 So what does this take me to? What have 

7 I learned over these seven years of working in this 

8 area of trying to find an organic product to replace 

9 celery powder?

10 It really comes down, in my mind, that 

11 we don't know how to grow it for this application. 

12 Oh my gosh. And that's really where, when Beth was 

13 talking about the consortium, that's what we want 

14 to do.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are there 

16 questions? Questions? Yes, Nick? Quickly.

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: That doesn't sound 

18 like a very positive prognosis for finding an 

19 alternative to the current celery powder 

20 situation.

21 MS. JONES: I actually -- okay, go 

22 ahead. Sorry.
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: And I just, let me 

2 comment here. And the please take all the time 

3 necessary to respond.

4 And then number two, it would appear 

5 that organic celery powder will not generate what 

6 you're seeking, is that -- am I correct in that 

7 assumption as well?

8 MS. JONES: Correct. And I think the 

9 issue -- let me first go back to, it's not a very 

10 optimistic position. And I was questioned last 

11 night on that. And I take a different view on that.

12 Mainly because if you go and probe the 

13 suppliers that are out there for the traditional 

14 processed meat market and you ask them, how do you 

15 grow your celery stock. They know the specific 

16 varietal they want, they know the soil conditions 

17 they want, they know the climate conditions they 

18 want. They know everything that they need to know.

19 We don't have that on the organic side. 

20 We don't know, using the organic allowed practices, 

21 what we have to have from the right varietal, the 

22 climate, the soil conditions. We don't know that. 
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1 And so I do think there's hope there.

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: I might interject 

3 that we probably wouldn't recommend that in 

4 general, for a food consumption product. Because 

5 you would be putting too much nitrate into the 

6 product.

7 We couldn't feed it to our animals for 

8 example. It would be bad for us to feed celery like 

9 that to our animals. And probably bad for people 

10 as well.

11 So I think there is a problem here. I'm 

12 not sure what the solution is, but I don't think 

13 organic farmers generally would force that much 

14 nitrates into a green --

15 MS. JONES: I'm not, because I think 

16 there are -- and I think the other reason I am 

17 optimistic is I have received one sample. It was 

18 a small scale sample from an organic producer, that 

19 I thought was very helpful. He couldn't tell me 

20 how he got that. So you do you get it consistently.

21 And I think from my position, is really 

22 getting back to a consistent level that we know 
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1 coming in from crop to crop to crop, within a range. 

2 I mean there's always range. But if we can get a 

3 consistent level, we can manage that. I can't 

4 manage one level here and one level here.

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: And you're not 

6 looking into other areas that would not be 

7 vegetable powders or vegetable solutions. You're 

8 confining it to the vegetable area?

9 MS. JONES: Well in terms of what we 

10 have done in the past, there are researchers we know 

11 looking at other types of technologies. And we are 

12 interfacing with them too.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, Francis, 

14 question?

15 MEMBER THICKE: Are there alternatives 

16 to nitrate, nitrite, nitrite for curing meat?

17 Was mentioned earlier that there was a 

18 news report, a big one, that the World Health 

19 Organization has talked about processed meat and 

20 nitrosamines in cancer. And so is there something 

21 else we could use besides nitrate, nitrite?

22 MS. JONES: If you want a cured meat, 
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1 no. And I think we still need to go back to food 

2 safety. And there are guidelines that we must meet 

3 from a USDA perspective on the food safety of the 

4 processed meats.

5 But in the uncured market, the levels 

6 of the nitrites that are used are much lower than 

7 what is used on the traditional side. So the 

8 processors are working here.

9 We are working with them to optimize 

10 food safety levels, nitrites and everything. But 

11 it's a process. And are we there today? No. 

12 We'll be a long way in five years.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

14 for your comments. And for the clarification of 

15 a very difficult topic.

16 Next speaker is John Ashby. And John 

17 will be followed by David Will.

18 MR. ASHBY: I'm John Ashby. Thank you 

19 for your work and for tolerating my behavior.

20 I love organic eggs and ham. I truly 

21 like them John I am. I like them in a breakfast 

22 nook and nibbled by a babbling brook. This is so 
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1 good you just can't beat it. If you don't like it, 

2 well don't eat it.

3 Organic has come rather far. From left 

4 coast joke to foody star. But we're one percent. 

5 Not 99. This isn't good. It's not sublime. In 

6 our case, one just ain't so fine. Two, three, 

7 four, five, six. Maybe seven. Brings us closer 

8 to organic heaven. But we need some tools, some 

9 compromises to keep winning our organic prizes.

10 Juices, granolas, sweeteners, candy. 

11 Wonderful, tasty, nutritious, dandy. Without 

12 enzymes so many will disappear, you'll be wondering 

13 what happened here.

14 To consumers taste is prime. Orange, 

15 strawberry, raspberry, lime. Kefir, or yogurt may 

16 to you seem silly, to lose them to conventional 

17 would be a dilly.

18 Make sure that flavors don't go away, 

19 the petition is a way to play while the current 

20 products don't go away. Not for a minute, not for 

21 a day.

22 Inerts, inerts, inerts can be improved 
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1 we all can say, but certainly not in a day for this 

2 complex regulatory game to play.

3 Improve we should, of course you bet, 

4 but make sure the farmers you don't forget. Do not 

5 take any tools away, their needs must be met for 

6 them to stay.

7 Is there just a few specific cases, 

8 there are so many other places where 605, I know, 

9 I know, is the tool that let's organics grow. So 

10 let's not do Monsanto's work, I'm sure they're not 

11 all actually jerks, but they want our threat to go 

12 away. And not for an hour or not for a day. And 

13 if we're not careful, we could end up that way.

14 So please vote things off with great 

15 restraint, what we lose isn't their complaint. 

16 One percent is rather pathetic, seven percent would 

17 be copasetic. So we must work hard at what we know, 

18 our world is better when organic grows. Thank you.

19 (Applause.)

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, I dare 

21 anybody ask him a question. And if you are going 

22 to do so, it needs to be in rhyme.
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1 (Laughter.)

2 MR. ASHBY: I can't tell when I was 

3 rehearsing, I said out loud once, our world is 

4 better when Monsanto grows. And that's like 

5 telling somebody not to think about an elephant. 

6 I just circle and --

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, I hope you 

8 submit your written comments. They will be 

9 delightful reading this evening I'm sure.

10 MR. ASHBY: Thank you.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, John. 

12 The next speaker is David Will. And he'll be 

13 followed by Dave Marchant.

14 MR. WILL: My very first comment here 

15 was to thank the Board, but having to sit through 

16 three minutes of absolute brilliance, it's very 

17 painful to say that after having to follow that.

18 Also on top of that, then Jena starts 

19 the meeting by threatening us Southern 

20 California's with very nasty four letter word, 

21 rain. So it's been an interesting thing.

22 Thanks, Michelle, for putting me right 
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1 after Mr. Ashby. I love the position.

2 I have a slide for you. It's 

3 absolutely terrible, so I'll submit in comment for 

4 you at the end.

5 But my name is David Will. I'm with the 

6 Methionine Task Force Group. And after an earlier 

7 speaker I think we're going to change our name to 

8 the essential amino acid methionine group. Just 

9 to help make sure that's clear.

10 We had promised back in Anaheim many 

11 years ago that we would come and at least keep you 

12 updated with the work we're doing and progress that 

13 we're making. And in holding that true I am here 

14 today for you to give you real brief updates.

15 Number one, we have paid for and 

16 published the Can-Anderson study. It's been peer 

17 reviewed and has now been submitted into three 

18 journals for publication. And excerpt is up there 

19 for you.

20 One is the potential of world research 

21 of all of the potential amino acid replacements 

22 that we could look at.
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1 Leading the list is Brazil nuts 

2 followed by about eight different egg type products 

3 and meat products. Then dropping down to potato 

4 and corn gluten. So we're actually going to look 

5 at some research further in those.

6 The second slide that we sent in is of 

7 insects and their amino acid availability. We're 

8 actually working with Dr. Brad Mullens at the 

9 University of California at Riverside. He's an 

10 entomologist.

11 We asked for a study to go out and find 

12 out on manure and organic farms what sort of insects 

13 and their availability is. We need to work on 

14 paring this down because it came up at about a 

15 quarter of a million dollars to send grad students. 

16 So we're going to have to rework and look at that.

17 We've also work with AFCO on the 

18 availability of including insect and insect meal 

19 and chicken poultry and getting that redefined so 

20 we can do so. However, we've been approached by 

21 the FDA. They have serious concerns about our 

22 doing this and putting that in.
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1 We're also going out to our members and 

2 going to seek another round of fundraising so that 

3 we can have the money to do some research, as we 

4 were told that that would be the best way to do it. 

5 That there wasn't really any research available 

6 through the national organic program currently.

7 And then we will commit to you to come 

8 back and let you know what studies we are going to 

9 fund and what research we're going to do as we do 

10 it. As close to live as possible.

11 And lastly, we just want to support that 

12 there is -- we've heard there's going to be a 

13 formation of a working group through the National 

14 Organics Standards Board on methionine. We 

15 obviously support that.

16 We are happy to support it with any sort 

17 of needs you from us, as far as it be support, 

18 experts, farmers, access to farms, access to 

19 anywhere in the United States. And the best part 

20 is, I have no life so I can talk for as long as I 

21 want.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Actually, I was 
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1 just about to interrupt you. Because I have 

2 noticed that --

3 MR. WILL: But I actually think that I 

4 will drop to conclusion right now. Thank you very 

5 much.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I did notice that 

7 you know. And I know that Tracy has a question.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes. Thanks, David 

9 for taking us seriously when we say it's absolutely 

10 imperative that you develop some alternatives. So 

11 it's good to hear about the actions taken to work 

12 on that.

13 Can you give us an idea about how long 

14 it would actually take to bring something to market 

15 once you identify an alternative?

16 MR. WILL: Well I think one thing I've 

17 said in the past, Tracy, is I think our first goal 

18 is going to be to try to come up with something 

19 that's available that's not a synthetic and get 

20 that going. Something in the natural or non-off 

21 that list and try to come with that.

22 Again, without having an identified, 
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1 I'd be taking a total shot in the dark. I know 

2 there's been studies done and looked at.

3 And, you know, I know potato starch has 

4 been worked on. And corn gluten, which you know 

5 is not very commercially available. And they both 

6 have not fared well.

7 I think that's why you see EU has moved 

8 so far into the free range now of a product, versus 

9 organic egg. And I think you'd have the same 

10 impact here.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I have Ashley and 

12 then Mac.

13 MEMBER SWAFFAR: I have two questions. 

14 First, can you kind of tell us a little bit why the 

15 FDA would be concerned with adding insects to 

16 poultry feed?

17 MR. WILL: Well, one of the concerns is 

18 it's not necessary in the adding it, it's what 

19 you're going to add. One of the major insects that 

20 you can find on a poultry farm potentially could 

21 carry salmonella with it. In just the insect and 

22 its manure.
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1 And also just the bio-security point of 

2 it. Depending on how we did it. You know, if 

3 we're talking about ground worm in the meal versus 

4 maybe a frozen or a freeze dried product.

5 So I think we first have to identify 

6 what our options are. And then what, they have to 

7 do some sort of risk assessment.

8 But we're all required to monitor flies 

9 in our chicken house. How many times a little bug 

10 lands on an index card. And if it gets above a 

11 certain number then we're identified as having a 

12 fly problem. So insects to them is a very dirty 

13 word.

14 MEMBER SWAFFAR: And my next question 

15 is, can you address the previous comment or 

16 statement that methionine is the growth promoter?

17 MR. WILL: Well I think it's an 

18 essential amino acid. And I don't know any amino 

19 acids that are essential in the world that don't 

20 promote the growth of the species that they're 

21 designed and given to.

22 There is absolutely reason to try to 
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1 grow a chicken to lay eggs faster. The whole point 

2 of this is to grow a frame and a foundation. That's 

3 why it takes us six months before we get a single 

4 egg out. That is the whole point and the purpose 

5 of it.

6 So if you take something away that's 

7 essential, obviously you're going to have retarded 

8 growth and development.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Mac? Calvin?

10 MEMBER WALKER: Thanks, Dave. I was 

11 also glad to hear you're in support of the organic 

12 poultry working group.

13 The livestock committee did put that 

14 forward to NOP. So I think we are waiting to get 

15 a resolution on that when we go through a, I think 

16 it was two years.

17 And the group of Mac Stone, Ashley, 

18 Tracy and I. And we put forward individuals, such 

19 as yourself, who are large operators and also small 

20 operators.

21 And we are hoping that we can get that 

22 done. Because at the last meeting the resolution 
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1 was passed 15-0 in support of this particular 

2 issue. Of moving the organic poultry industry 

3 alone.

4 And we don't want to come back in five 

5 years. I'll be off the Board for sure. But we 

6 don't want this issue to continue to fester.

7 I think that this organic poultry 

8 working group would be a path to help us. And I 

9 was glad that you said that you all support that.

10 MR. WILL: And I appreciate your 

11 support as well, sir.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Calvin. 

13 Great, I think that's it for questions. Thanks 

14 very much.

15 MR. WILL: Thank you very much.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We'll move to the 

17 next speaker, David Marchant. And the next one 

18 after that is Mike Baird. Bald.

19 MR. WILL: Please John Ashby next year. 

20 Please. Thank you.

21 MR. MARCHANT: Hello. My name is 

22 David Marchant. I'm a local grower here of fruits 
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1 and vegetables. I've been farming certified 

2 organic for 25 years. And I'd like to thank you 

3 for having the opportunity to speak.

4 I presently serve on the board of NOFA 

5 Vermont and I'm president of the Deep Root Organic 

6 Truck Farmers Association. Which is one of the few 

7 international cooperatives in the country. With 

8 members in Canada and here.

9 I would like to address two issues. 

10 The first being the allowance of use of bio-based 

11 mulch films.

12 Mulch films are rather important in 

13 production in fruits and vegetables. And there 

14 has been talk of allowing the use of, we are allowed 

15 use for one year. And then there was concern about 

16 the components.

17 But I'd like to encourage you to think 

18 about what the use of plastics and the 

19 environmental impact of that is in terms of 

20 disposal and what not.

21 I understand that we allow -- NOSB 

22 suggested the allowance of it. But there was 
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1 concern about how much plant material was actually 

2 in those films.

3 I would encourage you to perhaps setup 

4 a system where we would encourage manufacturers to 

5 try to increase that. Similar to organic seed 

6 production.

7 If we had required everyone 100 percent 

8 organic seed production when we first started, 

9 there wouldn't be too many of us around right now. 

10 We've allowed that to increase. And I would 

11 suggest that as an option potentially.

12 Mulch films are definitely an important 

13 part of fruit and vegetable production. 

14 Especially in the North.

15 The other point I would like to address 

16 is the hydroponic question. And the thing, the 

17 important thing I think to think about, is 

18 equivalency. We're no longer just in a single 

19 market.

20 The original organic law talked about 

21 making everything a level playing field. And that 

22 was mainly concerned looking at states.
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1 Now it's a much different world. We 

2 compete against Mexico, we compete against Canada 

3 all the time. To think that we have such a 

4 difference in what's allowed as being labeled 

5 organic is a major concern.

6 And that also holds to the bio-based 

7 mulches. Our neighbors just to the north are 

8 allowed to use them, we are not. Whereas, you 

9 know, hydroponics is not considered organic there.

10 So I would encourage you to really think 

11 about the equivalency thing. So that's it. Thank 

12 you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Great. Thank you 

14 very much, Dave. Are there questions for Dave? 

15 No, okay.

16 MR. MARCHANT: Okay.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

18 Appreciate you coming very much. Mike Bald next. 

19 And then Anne Lazor.

20 MR. BALD: My name is Michael Bald. I 

21 live in Royalton, Vermont. Thank you for your 

22 work.
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1 And welcome to Vermont. Welcome to all 

2 of you who have traveled far. I appreciate the 

3 time to speak.

4 I've learned a lot from the comments 

5 here and from the comments, and from the questions. 

6 My goal today is to return that favor and to empower 

7 you by sharing a concern that I have from my 

8 experience on the land. It will illustrate why 

9 your work is so vital, in my mind.

10 I'll save a thousand words and put up 

11 a picture. This is me and this is what I do. The 

12 word there, the wording is, stewardship equals 

13 presence.

14 I honor the saying, the old saying, the 

15 footsteps of the farmer are the best fertilizer. 

16 And I take it a step further, managing invasive 

17 species with a notion that the footsteps of the 

18 farmer are also the best herbicide. Stewardship 

19 equals presence. We need to be present on the 

20 land.

21 That's myself there. I know that's 

22 kind of a sketchy looking character on the side of 
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1 the road, but I'm protecting a hay field behind from 

2 wild parsnip that you see in the foreground.

3 I would like at the time to give a big 

4 shout out to the town of Stowe, where we are now. 

5 And joining other towns, like East Montpelier, 

6 Woodstock, Windsor, Orford, New Hampshire, 

7 Randolf, Vermont. All of these towns have hired 

8 me or worked with me to do nonchemical 

9 non-synthetic, non-toxic invasive species 

10 management on their town forest or lands.

11 I'm working right down the road here. 

12 It's happy coincidence that I'm here this week. If 

13 you'd like to do a field trip, if you don't want 

14 to go to high mowing seeds, come on out and see about 

15 pulling Japanese barberry. Good fun.

16 So to my point. I looked at your 

17 mission online and your key activities. I think 

18 we have some overlaps. We both engage and support 

19 the world of organic. You seek degrees of 

20 standardization and consistency as well.

21 You heard about Vermont's amazing

22 organic farming community. I'm a NOFA member. 
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1 It's a brilliant, wonderful thing to be part of.

2 But I want to share with you now that 

3 is insanely difficult to be an organically minded 

4 landowner in Vermont. Working the land in any 

5 manner, a Christmas tree farm, that's a Christmas 

6 tree farm underneath all the wild parsnip believe 

7 it or not, that's a private farmer.

8 All of these farmers, and landowners in 

9 general, whenever they try to get -- whenever they 

10 seek invasive species management support, they are 

11 told through USDA, NRCS that they have to use 

12 chemical treatment programs only. There is no 

13 funding for any other method.

14 New Hampshire, Massachusetts, do 

15 whatever you want. Just get the job done. But not 

16 in Vermont.

17 So what is the impact of this? I'll 

18 just briefly summarize and then happy to answer 

19 your questions.

20 A chemical, exclusive chemical 

21 treatment program throws organic farming, or 

22 organic landowners in general, under the bus. 
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1 They have to pay out of their own pockets to manage 

2 weeds.

3 Integrated pest management is an empty 

4 shell. It exists in name only when only one method 

5 is funded. Chemical treatment.

6 And finally, there is no commitment to 

7 long-term stewardship of the land when only one 

8 tool is used.

9 So I hope I've empowered you. I know 

10 you interact with USDA colleagues. You are 

11 decision makers. I've given you my take from the 

12 field. I hope I have empowered you. Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Mike, 

14 for your clear presentation. Questions, comments 

15 from the Board? Nope. You were very clear and 

16 much appreciated.

17 MR. BALD: Thank you.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much 

19 for coming to the meeting. The next speaker is 

20 Anne Lazor. And she'd be followed by her husband 

21 Jack Lazor.

22 MS. LAZOR: Hi, my name is Anne Lazor. 
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1 I live in Westfield, Vermont. We have an organic 

2 dairy farm that we've been in business for 30 years, 

3 at least, here. And we've been certified organic 

4 since the late '80's.

5 I'm also on the Vermont organic farmers 

6 review committee. So that gives me another 

7 perspective.

8 Originally we were certified in the 

9 '80's as some of the original dairy farmers that 

10 created the standards. And so it gave us a 

11 perspective on what it takes to farm organically 

12 on a dairy farm. Because there wasn't anything at 

13 the time when we started doing this.

14 So when the OFPA was passed, thanks to 

15 our respected Vermont Senator Leahy, we had 

16 concerns that given overcontrol of the organic 

17 standards to the USDA would undermined the original 

18 essence of organic farming. Small scale farms 

19 caring for the earth and building up the soils with 

20 organic matter and rock fertilizers to grow high 

21 quality food without synthetic chemicals and 

22 pesticides.
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1 The NOSB was designed to maintain these 

2 values. Made up of farmers, scientists, 

3 university researchers, well respected for their 

4 experience. And in experience in organic 

5 production.

6 We're hoping that in the future that the 

7 organic standard -- the NOSB will continue to be 

8 populated by people experienced in organic 

9 production and research and farming. And that we 

10 have enough farmers and people understanding 

11 farming to continue to have a good influence on this 

12 Organic Standards Board.

13 But more to the point, I am concerned 

14 that our Organic Standards Board is not being heard 

15 by the NOP and the USDA. And that the advice that 

16 this Board gives to the USDA is not being addressed 

17 and not heated by the USDA.

18 And that perhaps the infiltration of 

19 agribusiness, which we're well aware of that 

20 agribusiness is in part and part with the USDA in 

21 a lot of the positions, that it has an effect on 

22 the ability of the USDA to utilize the advice of 
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1 the NOSB.

2 So what I'd like to say is that the NOP 

3 needs to respect the depth of knowledge and 

4 experience of the NOSB members and implement their 

5 decisions, not hampering their effectiveness by 

6 changing the rules. Such as the redesign of sunset 

7 polices and other organizational polices.

8 The creation of corporate agribusiness 

9 is directly related to producing cheap food. We 

10 need to change our outlook that good food costs 

11 less.

12 We need to focus on the care of the 

13 earth. If we support the building carb -- support 

14 building carbon and organic matter in our soils, 

15 as well as nurturing the soil biology form 

16 earthworms to mycorrhizae.

17 If we keep our vision of healing and 

18 enhancing the natural systems, we will in turn feed 

19 us and future generations.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Anne. 

21 Questions? Comments? Thank you very much.

22 Jack, you're up. The next speaker 
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1 after Jack Lazor will be Kelly Tavaras.

2 MR. LAZOR: Thank you for giving me 

3 this opportunity to stand up here and talk to this 

4 great body. It's guiding organic agriculture in 

5 our nation.

6 I'm probably one of the originals. 

7 Probably, you know, the second oldest organic, 

8 certified organic dairy farm in the country. And 

9 as Anne said, you know, when we started there were 

10 no standards and we flew by the seat of our pants.

11 But from the very, very beginning 

12 organic to us was always about promoting life, 

13 caring for the earth, caring for the soil and 

14 putting that above all else.

15 And in the very beginning, our meetings 

16 here in Vermont were really well attended because 

17 we wrote our own standards that were done for our 

18 region and we hashed it out. And it wasn't always 

19 easy, but we all felt good about it.

20 And a lot has changed since, you know, 

21 1990 and 2000 or 2001 when, you know, this became 

22 institutionalized through the USDA.
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1 So I'm just here to remind you folks 

2 that what the true meaning of organic is, and it's, 

3 you know, it is certainly a lot of, you know, it's 

4 sort of become a, more about process and less about 

5 spirit.

6 And I would like to remind you to sort 

7 of keep up the spirt of making this earth a better 

8 place. Of taking carbon out of the sky and putting 

9 it in the earth as organic matter. And humus. And 

10 help us do that.

11 And, you know, so remember when the 

12 hydroponics that, you know, it's all about soil and 

13 mycorrhizae and bugs and microbes and all the good 

14 stuff down there. And, you know, we get lost in 

15 the little details about methionine and celery 

16 powder and all that stuff.

17 And the one thing that has really, 

18 really bothered me that you folks did, and it's 

19 about ten years ago, is that you took cement kiln 

20 dust off the list. Because apparently somebody 

21 burned some tires in a cement kiln and that was a 

22 bad thing.
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1 But what cement kiln dust does for me, 

2 as an organic dairy farmer, is it allows me to grow 

3 the very, very best nutritious high calcium, low 

4 potassium feeds that I can use. And so it's okay 

5 here in Vermont.

6 Everybody likes to spread wood ash. 

7 And, you know, wood ashes also makes hydroxides and 

8 highly alkaline materials that, you know, maybe 

9 have a slightly bad influence on the soil, but you 

10 can spread all the wood ash you want. You can burn 

11 a tree and you can spread it on the land, but you 

12 can't burn a rock and spread that on the land.

13 So I ask my certification board, well 

14 can I just get a bunch of lime and make a pile of 

15 wood and burn the lime myself and spread my own lime 

16 so it doesn't have to come from cement kiln dust 

17 place, and I can't do that either.

18 So I want to grow the very best feed I 

19 can, and I feel like we get a little bit bound up 

20 in being controlled by the federal government.

21 So thank you for whatever you do. And 

22 remember it's all about life. Thank you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Jack. 

2 There's a question here from Calvin.

3 MEMBER WALKER: Always like to see the 

4 old guard of the old land. And I said it --

5 MR. LAZOR: Pardon me?

6 MEMBER WALKER: I always like to see 

7 the old guard of the old land. It gives me a lot 

8 of respect.

9 And my question to you is, where do you 

10 see organic, considering the challenges we have, 

11 in the next ten years?

12 MR. LAZOR: Well, I would like to see 

13 organics grow. And I do have to say that bringing 

14 you large scale business into organics with 

15 national distribution has allowed more families 

16 and people to think about, you know, it's a growing 

17 industry.

18 I do believe that human greed and the 

19 power of money kind of constricts us. And sort of 

20 being able to balance, you know, the true meaning 

21 of organic with getting the product to market, 

22 keeping people in business and giving good food to 
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1 people is a challenge.

2 And I'm sure you folks are doing your 

3 very, very best. And it can't be easy. Because 

4 you're basically controlled by an organization. 

5 The agricultural marketing service that is not 

6 really on our side.

7 I mean we need -- the only way we're 

8 really going to improve and save the earth and 

9 prevent climate change is by taking carbon out of 

10 the sky and putting it into the earth. And organic 

11 farming has the power to do that.

12 And do everything in your power to keep 

13 it happening. And, you know, keep it moving 

14 forward.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you for your 

16 comments, Jack. And I just wanted to assure you, 

17 you know me, I don't let people tell me what to do.

18 And I think all these members around the 

19 Board, that you see, are good strong minded people 

20 that will listen to what you say and be able to use 

21 it. So thanks very much for your comment.

22 MR. LAZOR: Thank you.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next speaker is 

2 Kelly Tavaras. And our final speaker of the 

3 morning will be Marty Mesh, right after Kelly.

4 MS. TAVARAS: Hi. Good afternoon. 

5 My name is Kelly Tavaras and I serve as the digital 

6 communications manager for the Organic Trade 

7 Association.

8 On behalf of OTA I'd like to thank

9 outgoing board members. Mac Stone, Calvin Walker, 

10 Colehour Bondera and Jessica Taylor for your 

11 outstanding service.

12 My colleagues have already spoken on 

13 specific agenda topics and you have our extensive 

14 written comments. So my remarks will focus on 

15 OTA's membership, our NOSB comment process and 

16 sunset material review.

17 To begin I'd like to congratulate NOSB 

18 and the national organic program on successfully 

19 offering virtual opportunities for public 

20 comments. Increasing accessibility to this 

21 process is a big step forward.

22 OTA members represent the huge 
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1 diversity in the entire supply chain of today's 

2 organic industry. Small and large organic farmers 

3 of all types, local and national organic 

4 processors, regional and countrywide organic 

5 distributors, retailers and so on.

6 We represent over 8,500 businesses in 

7 all 50 states. And half of OTA members are small 

8 businesses reporting less than a million dollars 

9 in organic sales annually.

10 OTA's members are represented either 

11 through direct membership or through strategic 

12 partnerships with regional organic producer 

13 organizations across the U.S. through our farmer's 

14 advisory council.

15 If you visit ota.com you'll see clearly 

16 stated information on how to become a member, what 

17 the benefits of membership are. And even more 

18 importantly, how we engage members in our advocacy 

19 work.

20 OTA members are proud to be part of the 

21 association. And the OTA member list is, and 

22 always has been, open to the public.
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1 Our membership is govern by a 

2 democratically elected board of directors ensuring 

3 that we're accurately representing our 

4 stakeholders.

5 The comments that OTA submitted to NOSB 

6 are on behalf of that membership. In order to do 

7 this, our regulatory staff carries out an extensive 

8 engagement process with the membership so that we 

9 can understand exactly how NOSB recommendations 

10 will impact certified farmers and handlers on a day 

11 to day basis.

12 To help facilitate a thorough comment 

13 and review process for 2016 and '17 sunset 

14 materials, OTA created an electronic survey for 

15 each individual input under review. The surveys 

16 are confidential, user friendly, available to 

17 every NOP certificate holder.

18 And includes seven to ten questions 

19 addressing the necessity or essentiality of the 

20 national list input that's under review.

21 You have our written comments, which 

22 include all the survey responses we received to 
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1 date. We are proud to have collected a total of 

2 470 unique responses from organic businesses 

3 across the country.

4 My question to the Board is this. How 

5 can we improve our survey system to help you? How 

6 can we help NOSB?

7 For example, is there a better way for 

8 us to report the data to you?

9 Our goal is to ensure engagement for 

10 membership in our process and to effectively 

11 deliver that feedback to NOSB for your 

12 consideration. So please let us know how we can 

13 help. Thank you so much.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

15 Questions? Questions from the Board? No 

16 questions.

17 MS. TAVARAS: Thank you.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well and of course 

19 we've all read the extensive written materials that 

20 have been submitted by OTA, prior to the meeting.

21 MS. TAVARAS: Excellent. Thank you.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Final 
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1 speaker of this morning is Marty Mesh. And, Marty, 

2 you still get the same three minutes that everybody 

3 else does.

4 MR. MESH: Marty Mesh. Florida 

5 Organic Growers and Quality Certification 

6 Services. Again, it was kind of just said that 

7 thanks to Colehour or Nick, Jennifer, Calvin and 

8 Mac for all the tremendous work.

9 I want to appreciate the NOP staff for 

10 all the work and effort. I know Michael likes to 

11 stress about misstatements of facts and trying to 

12 really going after good organic community people 

13 from doing public service. So my hats off to the 

14 NOP staff. 

15 QCS will be more vigilant about 

16 submitting comments in the future. Written 

17 comments.

18 As Jake was accurate in his challenges 

19 about trying to get folks to weigh in about the 

20 overall few materials and tools in an organic 

21 farmer's toolbox. But here's a few comments from 

22 our staff.
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1 Chlorine, we support it. More fun 

2 stuff for me to talk about. Humic acids, QCS 

3 supports retaining alkali extracted humic acids on 

4 205.601(j).

5 They're widely used by QCS certified 

6 organic producers due to a variety of benefits. 

7 Including improve soil structure, increase 

8 nutrient availability, increase root and top 

9 growth and increased yield.

10 The demand for an extensive use of 

11 alkali extracted products in organic production 

12 can be evident by the 80 plus crop production 

13 materials registered with OMRI. With OMRI 

14 containing alkali extracted humic acids.

15 Microcrystalline cheesewax we support. 

16 We support it. The staff raised questions about 

17 the concept of soy wax products, because there 

18 aren't any listed.

19 Furthermore, soy wax was viewed by QCS. 

20 Contains hydrogenated soybean oil, which QCS 

21 determined to be synthetic.

22 Thus we believe the soy wax would need 
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1 to be, first petitioned and added to the national 

2 list before it can serve as a real alternative to 

3 cheesewax.

4 Micronutrients. The proposed 

5 annotation, we strongly support the annotation 

6 change from micronutrients listed on 205.601(j)(6) 

7 from soil deficiency. Must be documented by 

8 testing, to deficiency must be documented.

9 This is a sound and sensible approach 

10 for organic producers to address micronutrient 

11 deficiencies that may be identified in ways not 

12 confined to soil testing.

13 Additionally, this annotation change 

14 should also apply to 205.601(j)(5) magnesium 

15 sulfate. As the current annotation states, 

16 "allowed with the documented soil deficiency."

17 Alginic acid. We believe that this 

18 should be reclassified as synthetic instead of 

19 non-synthetic. The reason is that the extraction 

20 process used to make this material involves a 

21 chemical process utilizing an alkali treatment and 

22 acid precipitation.
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1 Carnauba wax. There's five current 

2 suppliers that this material, hazardous material, 

3 as organic, according NOP's list of certified 

4 operations. Given that information, it should 

5 remain or be on 205.606.

6 And then we had some entities talk about 

7 gellan gum that should remain on the list.

8 So in my limited time I want to talk 

9 about GMOs and big picture stuff and all that kind 

10 of stuff.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So that was three 

12 minutes, Marty. Are there questions for Marty? 

13 Yes, Jennifer?

14 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you so much, 

15 Marty, for your presentation. Could you please 

16 give us some more of your time and complete your 

17 presentation.

18 PARTICIPANT: That was about GMO.

19 MR. MESH: I could, is that a question?

20 MEMBER TAYLOR: Appreciate it. About 

21 GMOs. Thank you.

22 MR. MESH: I'd be happy to answer your 
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1 question. Really quick though.

2 I find it incredibly insulting to put 

3 the, and I've always talked about the patent holder 

4 should be responsible. I think it's incredibly 

5 rude to put it all on the organic farmers trying 

6 to void technology. That if it was chemical 

7 trespass, that the prevailer of that would be 

8 responsible.

9 That it should be the patent holder in 

10 this case that's responsible for protecting 

11 organic seed suppliers, organic farmers from 

12 genetic trespass. And they should control their 

13 own technology, not put it on an organic farmer to 

14 prevent. So with that, let's go eat.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, indeed. 

16 Okay, so at -- well we will reconvene here at 2:00 

17 p.m. this afternoon. At 2:00 p.m.

18 And just a reminder that we will be 

19 having the NOFA reception tonight. That will 

20 start at 6 o'clock, in case you're headed out up 

21 the Hill for lunchtime. Just so you know.

22 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 
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1 went off the record at 12:51 p.m. and resumed at 

2 2:08 p.m.)

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, 

4 everybody, we are actually going to start the 

5 afternoon session is as close to on time as we can 

6 get, given our excellent public comment that we had 

7 this morning, which meant that we did run over. 

8 But I know obviously we don't have all the public 

9 back yet.

10 But I just want to say, as I'll say at 

11 the end of the meeting, it's been absolutely 

12 fabulous to have so many Vermont producers come to 

13 the meeting. I'm just really very proud of my 

14 state for having such a good turnout of great guys 

15 and gals.

16 Before we get into the nitty gritty of 

17 the Sunset, just a reminder from Tom Stearns, of 

18 High Mowing Organic Seeds. This is an open 

19 invitation to people for tomorrow to do a field trip 

20 for tomorrow, Wednesday from 3:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. 

21 or Thursday from 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m.

22 This is not at the time when the Crops 
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1 Subcommittee is meeting, it's at the other time. 

2 So, Tom would be excited and happy to show you 

3 around the facilities, and explain how they do the 

4 organic seeds. And Tom is back there somewhere. 

5 Where are you Tom? Tom is there, red shirt on.

6 So if anyone wants to go on that, except

7 NOSB member, you're not allowed to. Or, and you 

8 can RSVP him, Tom, at highmowingseeds.com. So I 

9 hope that's a nice gift that you have, Tom. And 

10 I wish we could have had one for everybody at the 

11 beginning of the meetings. But so much work we 

12 have to do, unfortunately.

13 So just a few words before we get into 

14 the crops Sunset, just to get us going. First of 

15 all, on conflicts of interest, let the record 

16 reflect that all members had circulated to them, 

17 as we have in our policy and procedure manual, the 

18 conflict of interest table. For us a sort of table 

19 that we send around that has every one of the 

20 materials listed on it.

21 And each member is required to report 

22 back to Michelle on that sheet whether or not they 
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1 have a conflict of interest. No member reported 

2 any conflict of interest for any material, per se.

3 But Zea would like to make a brief 

4 comment about conflict of interest. And also make 

5 a brief introduction, since she wasn't here on the 

6 first morning, because of the plane problem. Zea.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. And 

8 after, as many of you know, I like to personally 

9 disclose my conflict of interest or lack thereof. 

10 If any other Board Member wishes to do so after I 

11 do it, before we start into this voting portion, 

12 now would be the time to do it. So I'm combining 

13 introduction and conflict of interest declaration.

14 My name is Zea Sonnabend. I'm a small 

15 farmer from Watsonville, California, with 18 acres 

16 of diversified fruit and an acre of vegetables for

17 seed. I hold the scientist seat on the Board 

18 because of my long career in evaluating organic 

19 material.

20 I work part time for CCOF, a non-profit 

21 organization with 1,400 small farmers of which 

22 1,000 are very small. One thousand processors, 
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1 some of which are also farms. And 600 medium or 

2 large farms.

3 All of the Sunset materials may or may 

4 not be used by some of these CCOF clients. And many 

5 of the crop input for this meeting are used by me 

6 on my own farm.

7 I'm a very small voice without a big 

8 media machine behind me. I'm also a small farmer 

9 doing what I think is right for most farmers, large 

10 and small, in my work with NOSB.

11 I have spent my entire career in the 

12 non-profit sector, other than my farming 

13 endeavors, which are arguably non-profit at this 

14 point. I do try to do my best in evaluating 

15 materials and fighting GMOs with my time, instead 

16 of fighting with the USDA over Sunset. And I put 

17 in way more time than I'm paid towards these 

18 efforts.

19 So now, a small amount of my overall 

20 voting record is being labeled as part of the 

21 corporate voting bloc, ignoring the many other 

22 votes that removed substance from the list, or 
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1 failed to add new petitioned item.

2 And I ask, how would you all feel if 

3 select things you say or do at meetings are picked 

4 apart, distorted, and sponged to look negative, and 

5 then broadcast over the internet?

6 Yet, the people doing this have called 

7 for respect, whether any of agree with their 

8 positions on any particular issue. Isn't this 

9 hypocritical? I do not respect this approach, or 

10 feel respect. I'm an independent thinker and 

11 voter, and not part of a corporate voting bloc. 

12 Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Zea. In 

14 regards to materials that we will be listening to 

15 this afternoon, and throughout the rest of this 

16 meeting, all of these Sunset materials come to this 

17 meeting to the full Board of the NOSB on a seconded 

18 motion to remove.

19 The subcommittee cannot make 

20 decisions, as all of you know, and as you commented 

21 in your written comments. This vote was intended 

22 simply to indicate the possibility of removing, and 
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1 to ensure that we did get adequate comment from the 

2 public. And we can see how effective that was when 

3 it came, for example, to the ethylene.

4 Only the full Board can make a decisive 

5 vote. And that's why we are here at this meeting, 

6 to conclude our Sunset review on all of these 

7 materials. None of the Sunset materials will be 

8 tabled at this meeting. But any NOSB member can 

9 request the need for more information, perhaps 

10 another TR, or a new TR, or perhaps an annotation.

11 And any NOSB member will be able to 

12 request through their subcommittee chair, to the 

13 executive committee, that this material be added 

14 back to the work agenda for the subcommittees to 

15 review further in the spring, immediately 

16 following this meeting and our next session, you 

17 know, semester. So that hopefully we could bring 

18 back, if necessary, further changes and 

19 annotations, et cetera, to the April meeting.

20 And I hope you will follow that as 

21 closely as you can do, as we go through our 

22 subcommittee deliberation. In terms of procedure 
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1 for presenting the Sunset material, Dr. Brines will 

2 read each material into the record.

3 We are basically not going to group 

4 these, just in case there's any member that, you 

5 know, that has some additional comments they want 

6 to make. And it's different from the vote because 

7 it came up from subcommittee. They'll read each 

8 material into the record, and the lead person will 

9 present.

10 I am strongly urging, urging, urging 

11 each person, please, lead persons, do not just read 

12 out all the material we've just sent out for public 

13 comment. Otherwise we'll be here until next 

14 Tuesday. Please be brief, and bring in only those 

15 additional types of materials that we need in order 

16 to make our decisions today.

17 So, the lead person will present. 

18 There will then be a discussion and a vote. 

19 Voting. Voting will be slightly different to the 

20 way we've done it in the last few meetings.

21 Again, in an effort not to take a huge 

22 amount of time by going one, two, three, four, five, 
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1 or around in a roll call, we will do it based on 

2 a show of hands. And the hands will be kept up for 

3 long enough to be counted. And except that any 

4 NOSB person, if they wish, can request for roll 

5 call. 

6 We discussed the, NOSB members have 

7 discussed this amongst themselves as being the most 

8 efficient way to conduct the votes during this next 

9 few days. I know in the past they've grouped 

10 materials together for Sunset. But we're trying 

11 to be more open and transparent on this for every 

12 material, as you can tell.

13 Several members have been given voting 

14 tally sheets. In fact, any member that wants to 

15 have a voting tally sheet, as you know Michelle has 

16 a whole stack of them. Michelle has them as well.

17 Each of these voting tally sheets will 

18 allow several members to keep track of all of the 

19 votes of all of the persons on the NOSB. And we 

20 will, all of those voting tally sheets will also 

21 be reviewed at the end of the meeting by Michelle, 

22 in order to make sure that there are no errors.
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1 Tracy, as the Vice Chair, will announce 

2 the votes, as opposed to the Secretary, who is kind 

3 of long way away. And so, she will announce the 

4 votes as they come up. Votes, as you know, will 

5 be as required, specified in OFPA.

6 Two-thirds of the votes cast at a 

7 meeting of the Board are needed in order for the 

8 review to be completed from our perspective. All 

9 abstentions will be recorded as such, and not 

10 included in part of the total.

11 Similarly, any Board Member who recuses 

12 themselves due to a conflict of interest, which we 

13 have not seen, or are absent, which we don't have, 

14 they shall be recorded as such. And their votes 

15 will not be counted into the total number.

16 So, I know that Tracy and, or most every 

17 Board Member has a copy of the vote tally sheet. 

18 Yes. And as you all know, there's only 14 Board 

19 Members coming up with the decisive vote numbers. 

20 Are there any questions from the NOSB Board? Yes, 

21 Nick.

22 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. I have two 
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1 questions, and one sort of conflict of interest 

2 thing to bring up. I have been working with NBC 

3 National News to get the database of the USDA 

4 certified operations out to the public.

5 And I've been informed today that 

6 they're making a piece available to their 

7 affiliates nationwide, stating that USDA has 

8 released a list of certified operations in the 

9 United States. And they spent a few minutes on my 

10 farm. So I may also be on that as well.

11 But I wanted to make it clear that I did 

12 not receive anything from the NOP, or any of its 

13 employees. And I did that totally of my own 

14 initiative.

15 Now, getting to our voting procedures. 

16 The, I guess I've got a couple of questions here, 

17 Jean, just for clarification. I think I 

18 understood exactly what you said. But I want to 

19 repeat this, that the subcommittees have made a 

20 motion on all of the Sunset proposals.

21 They have also, you know, they made a 

22 motion, they seconded it, and they voted. That's 
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1 the only way that those proposals can come to us, 

2 the full Board? Is that what I'm hearing? That 

3 there's no other way that the full Board could have 

4 received those Sunset proposals?

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That is the way that 

6 we've traditionally moved things from a 

7 subcommittee to the full Board.

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: However, as you 

10 well know, in OFPA we're not required to vote on 

11 Sunset materials at all. So voting is just what 

12 we've traditionally done. So we're doing what we 

13 traditionally do.

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right. But we could 

15 not have, we would not be doing this had the 

16 subcommittees made a motion and voted on it, and 

17 sent it to us now? That's correct? Right. Okay.

18 And then, just to clarify the number of 

19 votes. We're voting on de-listing motions, that's 

20 motions to remove things from the list, correct?

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That is what I said, 

22 yes.
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: Okay. So then, if 

2 there were, in this case we have 14 members present, 

3 or 14 members voting. Then if there are nine votes 

4 that were to say, yes, de-list, those would be yes 

5 votes that would say de-list. And there would be 

6 five votes that say, no, do not de-list, then that 

7 remains on the list, correct? Am I correct there?

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. I believe you 

9 should have received as part of your package a sheet 

10 that looks like this, Nick, which actually gives 

11 you the breakdown, so that you could look at each 

12 of them in turn. It lists for the votes cast, 

13 refusals, abstentions, to how do you come up with 

14 a two-thirds majority. Do you have that list?

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: I've had it in the 

16 past. I don't have it in front of me right now. 

17 But I'm just sort of saying, I just made up that 

18 example. But I'm assuming that what I just said 

19 was correct.

20 If there are nine votes that say in the 

21 affirmative to de-list a Sunset provision, and 

22 there are five votes in the negative, not to 
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1 de-list. Then would that indeed constitute a case 

2 where the --

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: It would depend if 

4 there were recusals or abstentions. Again, I 

5 would refer you to the list, so that --

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: No. I'm saying if 

7 you've got nine affirmatives --

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Two-thirds is a 

9 majority.

10 MEMBER MARAVELL: -- and five 

11 negatives, then the proposal would fail, in effect, 

12 because it did not reach a two-thirds majority.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: Is that correct?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: It, two-thirds, 

16 whatever the two-thirds is. Because --

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, Michelle just 

18 gave me --

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: If 14 votes are 

20 cast --

21 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right. Two-thirds 

22 requires ten.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: -- you 

2 would -- Correct. It would require ten.

3 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: If 13 votes were 

5 cast and there were two refusals, for example, then 

6 it would require nine.

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: Nine. Yes.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And so on down the 

9 list.

10 MEMBER MARAVELL: So I was just giving 

11 the example of if there were 14 cast votes, nine 

12 in the affirmative, five in the negative, then a 

13 particular Sunset material would remain on the list 

14 under this procedure. I'm just trying to clarify.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So what's the 

16 issue?

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: I didn't say there 

18 was. I said I was trying to clarify for my benefit.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

20 MEMBER MARAVELL: Thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. And if 

22 there's any questions on that I know that Dr. Brines 
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1 will correct us if we have made an error in the 

2 manner in which Tracy then says whether it's, the 

3 motion is passed or not.

4 And we may make some slight mistakes as 

5 we go along here. But I'm sure there will be Board 

6 Members that will correct us as we do the voting 

7 and the vote counting. But try to be as flexible 

8 and helpful to each other as we can be. Are there 

9 any other questions from the Board? Colehour?

10 MEMBER BONDERA: I'm not sure it's a 

11 question. But I just want to again wrap my brain 

12 around this process before we get going. And I 

13 think I have it down, but just to verify. We're 

14 using the motions that were made at the 

15 subcommittee level? We're not making motions at 

16 this level? Is that correct?

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

18 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That is absolutely 

20 correct. We are using those motions.

21 MEMBER BONDERA: And also, the person 

22 who made the motion at the subcommittee level, 
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1 because I full well know they often did not, does 

2 not need to vote for the motion they made?

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That is correct.

4 MEMBER BONDERA: According to the 

5 paradigm --

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Robert's Rules.

7 MEMBER BONDERA: -- that has been used 

8 in this process?

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And also Robert's 

10 Rules of Order, both. So, any person can, you can 

11 make a motion. Anyone can make a motion. It 

12 doesn't mean that if you've made the motion you have 

13 to vote for the motion. It is simply a technique 

14 for getting a question up for debate, ready for 

15 debate by the group. So, yes, you are correct.

16 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Are you 

18 ready, Zea?

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes. But I 

20 believe, we're going to take the materials in the 

21 order that they are on the list, I believe. And 

22 so, the first thing would be to turn it over to Lisa 
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1 Brines.

2 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The first 

3 material on the agenda for the crops, for the, or 

4 this afternoon, is alcohols, ethanol. So for each 

5 of these substances I'll read the full listing into 

6 the record, and then turn it back to the Board for 

7 discussion.

8 The first listing on '205.601, 

9 synthetic substances allowed in organic crop 

10 production, under Paragraph (a) as algaecide, 

11 disinfectants, and sanitizer, including 

12 irrigation system cleaning systems, (1) alcohols 

13 (I) ethanol. Thanks.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Then 

15 Francis, would you like to --

16 MEMBER THICKE: Yes, thank you. So 

17 there are two alcohols, ethanol and isopropyl 

18 ethanol alcohol. And we're going to do ethanol 

19 first. And, as was mentioned by Lisa, it's used 

20 as a disinfectant, sanitizer, and algaecide.

21 And in the two rounds of comments that 

22 we had there were lots of support for re-listing 
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1 it. And it's, there is the possibility of having 

2 a natural fermented ethanol. And one commenter 

3 asked that we should have looked down, looked to 

4 see if there is sufficient natural ethanol 

5 available.

6 The TR did not have that information. 

7 We don't have that information. So that is 

8 lacking. But the comments were overwhelmingly in 

9 favor of re-listing.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Is there any 

11 discussion on the motion? Is there any discussion 

12 on the motion? Seeing no discussion on the motion, 

13 I would ask for a show of hands. If you wish to 

14 remove alcohols ethanol from the National List, 

15 please raise your hand. I see no hands raised.

16 Please raise your hand if you vote no, 

17 that is, to keep the ethanol on the list. Yes, 

18 Harold, we can see you. Okay. Thank you. Are 

19 there any, I did not see any. But are there any 

20 abstentions or recusals? I see none. Tracy, do 

21 you want to read the results?

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Zero yes, 14 no. 
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1 The motion fails.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Next 

3 material.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Lisa will talk.

5 DR. BRINES: Okay.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Calvin is missing.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, thank you. Oh, 

8 okay. One absent. There you go.

9 MEMBER THICKE: We're going to have to 

10 talk to those absences about raising their hand.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, that's true. 

12 Sorry about that, folks,

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: It's great.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: So the vote was zero 

15 yes, 13 no, one absent.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Mac.

17 MEMBER STONE: Just for the record, 

18 Madame Chair, by me holding up one finger, that's 

19 saying ma'am when I hold my hand.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The Chair notes the 

21 subtlety. Next material, Lisa.

22 DR. BRINES: Yes. Moving on, next on 
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1 the agenda is isopropanol, also listed under 

2 '205.601(a) as algaecide, disinfectants, and 

3 sanitizer, including irrigation system cleaning 

4 system, (1) alcohol, (ii) isopropanol. Thank you.

5 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. And as with 

6 ethanol there was widespread support for renewing 

7 this material on the list. We'll keep it simple. 

8 Zea.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea, do you want to 

10 be the one that says, any discussion? Or what do 

11 you want to do?

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Is there any 

13 discussion?

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no 

15 discussion I believe we are ready to vote. All 

16 those in favor of removing alcohols isopropanol 

17 from the National List, please raise your hand.

18 All those in favor of, all those opposed 

19 to the motion, please raise your hand. Are there 

20 any abstentions or recusals? I see not. Tracy, 

21 do you have the vote?

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: One yes, 13 no. The 
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1 motion fails.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Next would be 

3 chlorine materials. Lisa.

4 DR. BRINES: Do you want to take these 

5 three as a group, Zea?

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

7 DR. BRINES: Okay. Thank you. So 

8 next up is under '205.601 of the National List, 

9 under Paragraph (a), as read before, (a)(2) 

10 chlorine materials for pre-harvest use, residual 

11 chlorine levels in water, in direct -- I'm sorry, 

12 I'm looking at a different section here.

13 For pre-harvest use, residual chlorine 

14 levels in water in direct crop contact, or as water 

15 from cleaning irrigation systems applied to soil 

16 must not exceed the maximum residual disinfectant 

17 limit under the Safe Drinking Water Act, except 

18 that chlorine products may be used in edible sprout 

19 production according to the EPA label directions.

20 We're taking the three materials as a 

21 group, calcium hypochlorite, chlorine dioxide, and 

22 sodium hypochlorite. Thanks.
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1 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. So again, there 

2 was a lot of support for renewing these materials. 

3 But there was also a lot of concern about chlorine 

4 in general, not only for crops, but for livestock 

5 and for handling.

6 And suggestions were made that we need 

7 to do more homework on chlorine. And based upon 

8 those comments, it seems to be that would be good 

9 for us to look to the future, maybe amongst all 

10 three committees, to do some kind of a targeted 

11 technical review, whereby we could look at what are 

12 all the uses for chlorine, and what are really 

13 needed. And kind of get that all tallied up.

14 Especially like, for example, in dairy. 

15 Maybe a thing from dairy. It's in the pasteurized 

16 milk ordinance. Most of the states adopt that. 

17 States change things.

18 And so, it would be good to have a 

19 listing of what is really needed, and what 

20 alternative could be available. So I'm just 

21 throwing that out in this time, just for something 

22 for our committees to look at in the future.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: I just wanted to 

2 point out that we have put this on our research 

3 priorities agenda. So that research that focuses 

4 on organic uses of chlorine can be done over the 

5 years as we take another look at this.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Anymore 

7 discussion? Colehour?

8 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. And I think 

9 what Francis said, that is going to reiterate the 

10 word alternative. I think it's critical in that 

11 whole discussion. And that's my personal take on 

12 this topic. Thank you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All those in favor 

14 of removing this group of chlorine materials from 

15 the National List, please raise their hand. Those 

16 opposed to remove these materials from the National 

17 List, please raise your hand. Thank you. Tracy. 

18 Or, sorry, any abstentions, any recusals? I 

19 didn't -- Show all hands.

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. The vote was 

21 two yes, 12 no. The motion fails.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Next is hydrogen 
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1 peroxide. So, Lisa.

2 DR. BRINES: Thank you. There are two 

3 listings for hydrogen peroxide that were 

4 considered by the subcommittee as a single motion. 

5 The first listing is at '205.601(a), as algaecide, 

6 disinfectant, and sanitizer, including irrigation 

7 system cleaning systems. And also under 

8 '205.602(I) as plant disease control. Thank you.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: This one was my 

10 material to work on. We did commission a new TR, 

11 because the TR that had been existing on this was 

12 old. And we found out some good information in 

13 relation to the criteria that we used for review 

14 material.

15 We have, the good parts of it is that 

16 is has very little residual effect. And 

17 relatively no impact on birds, humans, or fish, as 

18 long as it's used according to label direction.

19 We, in public comment we got general 

20 support for re-listing. And a few people pointed 

21 out that it is quite toxic on contact, and should 

22 be used carefully. But that was the primary 
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1 concern about it. And most people supported it 

2 being re-listed. Any discussion?

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no 

4 discussion, all those in favor of removing hydrogen 

5 peroxide, please raise your hand. All those 

6 opposed to removing hydrogen peroxide, please 

7 raise your hand.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

9 yes, 14 no. The motion fails.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Next would be soap 

11 based algaecides and demossers. Lisa.

12 DR. BRINES: Soap based 

13 algaecide/demossers are listed at '205.601 of the 

14 National List under (a), as algaecide 

15 disinfectants and sanitizer, including irrigation 

16 system cleaning systems, under number 7. Thank 

17 you.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: I think this was --

19 MEMBER THICKE: Me.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: -- Francis.

21 MEMBER THICKE: Yes. This is one that 

22 the committee actually voted five to zero to on 
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1 de-list. And the first time around we asked 

2 questions of people who were widely using it. We 

3 didn't get a lot of response.

4 And the second round of comments a few 

5 people checked yes, they wanted to keep it on. But 

6 nobody really gave a reason why. It often was 

7 combined with other checks on other lists. And so, 

8 that's where it's at now. It's been proposed to 

9 be removed by the subcommittee.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Didn't we get a few 

11 specific comments in this time?

12 MEMBER THICKE: We got, there was one 

13 comment that soap did not affect the human health. 

14 They're composed of molecules, natural, a comment 

15 to the national environment. Well, there were a 

16 few comments, yes. Do you remember some other ones 

17 that I'm not thinking of?

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, I remember 

19 one specific comment that was in favor of keeping 

20 it. Actually I remember two specific comments in 

21 favor of keeping it.

22 One was, a farmer who said that they 
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1 used it in, I guess they must live in a very moist 

2 area. But they used it, but away from waterways, 

3 and were very careful with it.

4 And the other one was for irrigation 

5 system cleaning in, because there's lots of 

6 different kinds of bacteria and organisms that get 

7 in the irrigation lines. And this one is better 

8 than some of the other choices for certain species 

9 of the bacteria.

10 Unfortunately, I didn't put my finger 

11 on exactly whose comment that was. But it was 

12 quite a specific comment to this product.

13 MEMBER THICKE: Correct. And there 

14 are several sanitizers for irrigation systems. 

15 But he's saying that this was helpful for some 

16 species. Yes.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Does anyone else 

18 have discussion points? So, we'll just say that 

19 I found those two comments compelling enough that 

20 I'm going to change my vote out of committee to keep 

21 it on. Because there was no negative information 

22 about health effects, or environmental effects, or 
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1 like that.

2 MEMBER THICKE: Well, there was --

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: And, does Harold 

4 have his hand up?

5 MEMBER THICKE: Oh, I'm sorry.

6 DR. BRINES: Yes.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay.

8 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes. Zea, Harold. 

9 Likewise I saw a couple of those comments as well. 

10 And I felt compelled enough with reading them that 

11 I also am going to change my vote from the committee 

12 vote, and vote in favor of keeping this on the list.

13 MEMBER THICKE: In the TR it does talk 

14 about the toxicity of particular water organisms. 

15 And especially if you're using it for irrigation 

16 cleaning, there's a good likelihood that it's going 

17 to get to the water.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Anymore 

19 discussion?

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Assuming we're 

21 ready for a vote, all those persons that wish to 

22 remove the soap based algaecide demossers from the 
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1 National List, please raise your hand. All those 

2 who wish to vote --

3 What are we doing, voting yes? Oppose 

4 the motion, please raise your hand. Is there any 

5 desire to do a roll call on this? We're okay.

6 (Off microphone comments)

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, 

8 just -- Jennifer is calling for a roll call vote. 

9 Let's do a roll call vote on this. If we could, 

10 please, starting with Zea.

11 (Roll call vote)

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. We've got 

13 eight yes, five no, one abstention. The motion 

14 fails.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. The next 

16 thing is herbicides, soap based. Lisa.

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. We're on 

18 Paragraph 8, as herbicides, weed barriers as 

19 applicable. The substance under (1) is, 

20 herbicides soap based for use in farmstead 

21 maintenance, (roadways, ditches, right of ways, 

22 building perimeters) and ornamental crops. Thank 
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1 you.

2 MEMBER THICKE: I'm the soap guy here 

3 today. So, this one was not controversial like 

4 that last one. The support was much more wide, was 

5 more broad. And this being used for the herbicide 

6 it was stressed real systems.

7 And so, there's less likelihood of it 

8 getting into the, to contaminate for aquatic 

9 organisms. The vote in the committee was zero to 

10 take it off, and five to keep it on.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? I 

12 would just note that I'm continually troubled every 

13 time this subject comes up by the public comment 

14 we hear, which tends to be mostly from people who 

15 either want to use it directly on crops, or are 

16 using it directly on crops. And they're certifier 

17 isn't catching them.

18 As I thought was the case with one of 

19 the comments we received this time. And so, this 

20 annotation is only for roadways, ditches, right of 

21 ways and building perimeters. And we wish to 

22 maintain that annotation.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ready for the vote? 

2 If you wish to remove herbicides soap based, please 

3 raise your hand. I see no hands up. If you wish 

4 to leave this material on the list, please raise 

5 your hand.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

7 yes, 14 no. The motion fails.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Next would be 

9 newspaper or other recycled paper. Lisa.

10 DR. BRINES: Thank you. There are two 

11 listings for newspaper or other recycled paper that 

12 are under consideration for Sunset 2017. The 

13 first is listed at '205.601(b), as herbicides, weed 

14 barriers, as applicable. (2) mulches, (I) 

15 newspapers or other recycled paper without glossy 

16 or colored ink.

17 The second listing is at '205.6018, as 

18 compost, feedstocks - Newspapers or other recycled 

19 papers without glossy or colored inks. Thank you.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour.

21 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay. Thank you. 

22 We, at the subcommittee level combined the two, and 
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1 took one vote. So that's how I'm going to proceed. 

2 There really were relatively few significant 

3 concerns raised regarding re-listing.

4 However, comments did come from various 

5 sources regarding the opportunities to separate 

6 colored and black inks, verifying the distinction 

7 of harm of inks, and from one from another.

8 And really was, I think at this point 

9 in time I'm not sure exactly what this process is, 

10 even though Jean mentioned it. But I think, from

11 my perspective it suggests that we are due for a 

12 TR on this. And I hereby would like to request that 

13 that occur.

14 I don't know, like I said, that will go 

15 to the subcommittee and be considered as the 

16 process. So, I'm raising that. The public 

17 basically supported re-listing as it was. And the 

18 subcommittee did the same thing, which is fully 

19 opposed to de-listing. So that's where it was at. 

20 And that's all I have to add.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. The TR 

22 request will be referred to the crop subcommittee. 
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1 Discussion?

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: There being no 

3 discussion, please raise your hand if you wish to 

4 remove this material from the National List. 

5 Seeing none, please raise your hand if you wish to 

6 leave this material on the National List. Any 

7 abstentions or recusals?

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

9 yes, 14 no. The motion fails.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. Next is 

11 plastic mulch and covers. Lisa.

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The next 

13 listing is at '205.605, I'm sorry, '205.601(b) as 

14 herbicides, weed barriers, as applicable. (2) 

15 Mulches. (ii) Plastic mulch and covers 

16 (petroleum-based other than polyvinyl chloride 

17 (PVC)).

18 And just for the record, there was one 

19 error in the subcommittee information. The 

20 listing citation at the subcommittee vote is 

21 indicated as (j), but is correct in the reference 

22 material as (b). Thank you.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour.

2 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Yes. 

3 This is perhaps one of the more complicated ones 

4 for me at least. So it will take a few extra 

5 moments. But I did want to note that while we as 

6 a subcommittee were discussing this, and we could 

7 possibly say this isn't related. But I think it's 

8 directly related.

9 The memorandum came out from the NOP 

10 regarding reconsideration of the bio based, 

11 biodegradable mulch, which I think well was 

12 effecting the process of the need for plastic mulch 

13 and covers, in terms of discussion and final 

14 decision.

15 So, since that was something that had 

16 been approved, and then was coming back as needing 

17 to be re-looked at. And I'll restate what I stated 

18 at the last meeting regarding this, which is that, 

19 and I'm not going to cite a specific experience.

20 But there was a written testimony that 

21 referred to the fact that there isn't really 

22 consistency by certifiers, in terms of the removal 
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1 of plastic mulches. And that's, frankly, as a 

2 farmer something I've observed as well.

3 But also I haven't experienced it. But 

4 I have observed it on other farms. And I think it's 

5 a big yellow flag of how this process happens.

6 As we know, the manufacturer, and the 

7 waste from plastic mulches are the significant 

8 concerns. Generally speaking the public 

9 supported the re-listing, with questions on the 

10 limitations towards using, you know, how can we 

11 make sure that people are using other options, 

12 instead of using plastic mulches, if that's become 

13 habitual or a general practice in something they're 

14 doing.

15 he subcommittee overall supported the 

16 re-listing of the plastic mulches and covers. And 

17 I think, I just want to throw in there the fact that 

18 really I think that plastic mulches in my opinion 

19 do not fit within organic systems.

20 They do not fit within the whole broader 

21 picture of what organic means, and what are, 

22 factoring in the different issues, especially the 
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1 environment are regarding this. And I really 

2 think that this is one material that we need to not 

3 be continuously having people rely on as farmers, 

4 or people who want product then.

5 So, I think that, you know, the one 

6 example I come up with is, you know, like, for 

7 example, the strawberries, everybody uses plastic 

8 mulch now. Well, 100 years ago organic 

9 strawberries, and all strawberries were organic, 

10 none of them were grown with plastic mulch.

11 So I think that, yes, it's depended 

12 upon. Is it essential? I think that that goes 

13 back to that word of essentiality of, why are we 

14 relying on something that we've survived without 

15 in the past.

16 So I will be voting against re-listing 

17 for those reasons. And I wanted to share that, and 

18 that thinking process with you. Thank you.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Mac.

20 MEMBER STONE: I just want to suggest 

21 that certifiers and inspectors alike work with the 

22 growers. Often if it's a crop that's harvested up 
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1 until winter, or late season, that wet weather's 

2 difficult to remove.

3 But certifiers and inspectors alike are 

4 pretty diligent in working with the growers to be 

5 sure that it is removed, given the weather 

6 conditions that they deal with.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour?

8 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. Mac, I believe 

9 you. And I recognize that. Although as you read 

10 in what is put forth in a public testimony, it was 

11 stated, "We always use black plastic mulch when we 

12 establish a vineyard. We do not irrigate.

13 And the plastic mulch is critical to us 

14 getting the baby vines growing over the first three 

15 years in the ground. We always take the plastic, 

16 the black plastic up after it has been in for four 

17 to five years." So, I hear you. But --

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. More 

19 discussion?

20 MEMBER TAYLOR: I agree that plastic 

21 mulch should not be a part of an organic management 

22 system. And I'm working with farmers all the time 
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1 that are using alternative methods. They're using 

2 straw, or they're using leaves.

3 But instead of resulting on their own 

4 accord, choosing not to use plastic, because they 

5 see it as not having a place within the organic 

6 management system. So I also support removing it 

7 from the list.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. 

9 Anymore discussion? Harold.

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes. Plastic mulch I 

11 think gives us a couple of benefits. One is for 

12 the weed control that it's giving in assisting out 

13 on the farms.

14 But it's also because of the removal of 

15 that weed barrier, it's also helping enhance the 

16 rodent control during the winter months as well, 

17 especially in the northwest. So I'm in favor of 

18 continuing to leave it on the list.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Anything, anyone 

20 else? Okay. Just to point out that we are 

21 changing the citation for the subsection in the 

22 listing from, to '205.601(b), which is what Lisa 
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1 read out is the correct spot on the list.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ready for the vote? 

3 All those in favor of removing the plastic mulch 

4 and covers from the National List, please raise 

5 your hand. Those opposed, please raise your hand. 

6 Any abstentions or recusals?

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is two yes, 

8 12 no. The motion fails.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Question from Mac.

10 MEMBER STONE: I would like to note 

11 that there are, this is always based on that real 

12 thing row cover. But there's lots of different 

13 types of plastics and fabrics and things.

14 So it's a little more complicated than 

15 just thin little, you know, 1.25 mil plastic. So 

16 I don't know if that needs to be sort of addressed 

17 in a broader view. Since I'm going off, it's easy 

18 for me to say.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Next would be 

20 ammonium soaps. Lisa.

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The listing 

22 for ammonium soaps is at '205.601 of the National 
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1 List, Paragraph (d), as animal repellants - Soaps, 

2 ammonium for use as a large animal repellant only, 

3 no contact with soil or edible portion of crop. 

4 Thank you.

5 MEMBER THICKE: That's me.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, Francis.

7 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. There weren't a 

8 lot of comments. There were definitely a number 

9 of people who wanted to keep it on the list. There 

10 were some comments that this is mostly used for deer 

11 repelling. Some comments that it really doesn't 

12 work anyway, but let's keep it on the list anyhow.

13 That's kind of, so we didn't see any 

14 real compelling reason to take it off the list. 

15 And the committee voted unanimously to keep it on 

16 the list.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no 

19 discussion, those in favor or removing this from 

20 the National List, please raise your hand. Those 

21 opposed to removing this from the National List, 

22 please raise your hand. Abstentions or recusals? 
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1 Seeing none.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is one yes, 

3 13 no. The motion fails.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Next is ammonium 

5 carbonate. Lisa.

6 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The listing 

7 for ammonium carbonate is at '205.601 of the 

8 National List, Paragraph (e), as insecticides, 

9 (including acaricides or mite control). (1) 

10 ammonium carbonate - for use as bait in insect trap 

11 only, no direct contact with crop or soil.

12 Again, one correction for the record, 

13 the citation in the subcommittee vote should be 

14 '205.601(e), rather than '205.601(I). Thank you.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour.

16 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay. So, I have 

17 here the fact that there was -- I apologize. I'm 

18 staring at my computer because my notes on 

19 de-listing and re-listing are mixed up, I think. 

20 So, I think that there was minimal support for 

21 de-listing.

22 But frankly, there just wasn't that 
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1 much input, is I think the reason that I wasn't, 

2 I think my comment here is about public input. And 

3 they weren't saying that they thought it should be 

4 re-listed. So I think not heavily.

5 I think the input that did come 

6 regarding overall essentiality of ammonium 

7 carbonate, and that alternatives are possible, I 

8 think were mentioned.

9 And like I already said, the 

10 subcommittee vote was against de-listing, was not 

11 for the de-listing of, I think that topic of lack 

12 of need for me is going to result in my vote for 

13 against re-listing it. But other people probably 

14 have other comments. Thank you.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? I'll 

16 call on myself, seeing no hands. This suffers 

17 along with several of our other listings for having 

18 a complicated name that people didn't recognize to 

19 put in comment.

20 If it had said libate on the list we 

21 would have gotten hundreds, if not thousands of 

22 comments from livestock producers, as well as crop 
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1 producers. Because it's the stuff that's used in 

2 fly traps.

3 And so, I don't think we can attribute 

4 the lack of public comments to anything other than 

5 an obscure name for a very common input. Other 

6 discussion?

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Ready for 

8 the question. All those in favor of removing 

9 ammonium carbonate from the National List, please 

10 raise your hand. Those opposed, please raise your 

11 hand. Any abstentions or recusals?

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is two yes, 

13 12 no. The motion fails.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Boric acid. Lisa.

15 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Boric acid is 

16 listed at '205.601 of the National List, under 

17 Paragraph E, as insecticides (including acaricides 

18 or mite control). (3) boric acid, structural pest 

19 control. No direct contact with organic food or 

20 crops. Thank you.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? Or, 

22 whose material is this? Colehour. Thank you.
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1 MEMBER BONDERA: No, thank you. 

2 Sorry. I was waiting for you to say my name because 

3 we can't see each other. It's all good. Yes. I 

4 don't have a lot to say about this one, in terms 

5 of --

6 Boric acid, you know, can be used in 

7 different ways, is I think the only thing worth 

8 noting. It's really, it's least toxic when used 

9 as bait and, you know, changing the management can 

10 mean that it's not as needed.

11 I do think, as the lead person on this 

12 one I would, I hereby request that an annotation 

13 change be put forth that would change the listing 

14 to something along the lines of, for use only as 

15 bait, or in gel formulation in the listing. So I 

16 make that request at this time.

17 Nonetheless, comments that came in were 

18 primarily for re-listing. And it wasn't, I guess 

19 one person was absent. And it was a little bit 

20 divided. The subcommittee vote was primarily 

21 against removing it. Thank you.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? 
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1 Jennifer.

2 MEMBER TAYLOR: You see the 

3 possibility that it could be taken back into 

4 committee for a change, annotation change?

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: We can discuss 

6 whether to pursue an annotation change in the 

7 subcommittee after this meeting.

8 MEMBER TAYLOR: After.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: But we can't change 

10 it right now.

11 MEMBER TAYLOR: Right. I just 

12 wondered if that possibility exists.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are you ready for 

14 the question? All those in favor of removing boric 

15 acid from the National List, please raise your 

16 hand. All those opposed to removing, please raise 

17 your hand. Any abstentions or recusals?

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is one yes, 

19 13 no. The motion fails.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Elemental sulfur. 

21 Lisa.

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you. There are 
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1 three listings for elemental sulfur that will be 

2 considered under the Sunset 2017 review. And they 

3 were considered as a group in the crop subcommittee 

4 proposal.

5 The listings are as follows, 

6 '205.601(e), as insecticides (including 

7 acaricides or mite control). '205.601(I), as 

8 plant disease control, and '205.601(j), as plant 

9 or soil amendments. And each time the listing 

10 reads, elemental sulfur. Thank you.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Harold.

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you. During the 

13 first public comment period we received 20 written 

14 comments and numerous oral comments on this 

15 material, that provided answers to three specific 

16 questions that we had posed to the stakeholders and 

17 the public for comment.

18 There was overwhelming support for the 

19 continued listing of elemental sulfur for all three 

20 uses from the organic stakeholders. One commenter 

21 stated that a survey of their members showed that 

22 it was very necessary in organic crop production, 
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1 while one certifier showed that it was listed on 

2 2,042 of the organic systems plans of those that 

3 they certify.

4 During the second posting for public 

5 comment, prior to the October, this meeting, there 

6 were a couple of oral comments that were provided, 

7 as well as 38 additional written comments that were 

8 submitted, 26 crop producers, one certifying 

9 group, three handlers, one crop advisor.

10 Two stakeholder surveys all showed 

11 solid support, critical need, or other 

12 miscellaneous reasons why they were in favor of the 

13 continued listing of elemental sulfur.

14 One commenter from Mexico provided both 

15 written and oral testimony on one of our two 

16 webinars, stating that because of their water 

17 source, compost, soil amendments, crop rotation to 

18 increase organic matter and lower the soil pH, 

19 sometimes was not enough.

20 Being able to lower the pH using 

21 elemental sulfur helps to provide benefits to the 

22 crop production, as well as improves their soil and 
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1 favors growth and development of microorganisms 

2 within the soil profile.

3 One commenter provided against the 

4 listing, asked for an annotation for the use of 

5 sulfur, asked us to protect workers and ensure that 

6 it does not result in ecological impacts. They 

7 asked us to refer this back to the subcommittee. 

8 That's what I have, Madame Chair.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Any discussion?

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no 

11 discussion, may we move to the vote? All those in 

12 favor of removing elemental sulfur in the three 

13 forms as read into the record, please raise your 

14 hand. All those opposed to removing elemental 

15 sulfur in its three forms from the National List, 

16 please raise your hand. Any abstentions or 

17 recusals?

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is one yes, 

19 13 no. The motion fails.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Next is lime 

21 sulfur. Lisa.

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you. There are two 
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1 listings for lime sulfur that will be considered 

2 under Sunset 2017. The first is at '205.601(e), 

3 as insecticides (including acaricides or mite 

4 control). The second is under '205.601(I), as 

5 plant disease control.

6 And one correction for the record, the 

7 citation in the motion vote in the crop 

8 subcommittee document should read '205.601(i)(6), 

9 rather than '205.601(j)(6). It is correct earlier 

10 in the document under the reference section. 

11 Thank you.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Harold.

13 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you. Again, for 

14 both this spring and this fall public comment 

15 period there were numerous comments submitted. 

16 The first spring meeting there were 20 written 

17 comments, plus several oral presentations that 

18 were given.

19 During the second posting for public 

20 comment there were 38 additional written comments, 

21 plus a couple of oral testimonies. And then we had 

22 one really good oral testimony today that we 
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1 listened to, regarding lime sulfur.

2 Of these there were 23 organic crop 

3 producers, two organic stakeholder surveys showing 

4 continued use for this material. The Northeast 

5 Farming Association of Vermont was in support.

6 Several commenters in support also 

7 stated that the use of lime sulfur in combination 

8 with horticultural oil gives them optimum control 

9 of overwintering populations of San Jose scale and 

10 mealy bugs, which are both quarantine pests in 

11 markets that they import their crops to. So, for 

12 them it was critically important.

13 One public interest group was against 

14 the listing, asked that we table the vote and refer 

15 this back to the subcommittee until we limit the 

16 uses, specific uses of lime sulfur. That's what 

17 I have now.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. 

19 Discussion?

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no 

21 discussion, all those in favor of removing lime 

22 sulfur as listed in its two forms, two uses, please 
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1 raise your hand. Lime sulfur, lime sulfur. All 

2 those opposed to removing lime sulfur from the 

3 National List, please raise your hand. Any 

4 abstentions or recusals?

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. The vote is 

6 one yes, 13 no. The motion fails.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: We're on to oils, 

8 horticultural. Lisa.

9 DR. BRINES: Thank you. There are two 

10 listings for horticultural oils that are under 

11 consideration for Sunset 2017. The first 

12 reference is at '205.601(e), as insecticides 

13 (including acaricides or mite control). Listing is 

14 under (7) oils, horticultural, narrow range oils 

15 as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.

16 The second listing is at '205.601(I), 

17 as plant disease control. (7) oils, horticultural, 

18 narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and 

19 summer oils. Thank you.

20 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Horticultural 

21 oils. During the 2005 Sunset review vegetable 

22 oils were one of the materials that were suggested 
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1 to replace the horticultural oils.

2 That was later found that these also use 

3 synthetic emulsifiers, and they're not as 

4 effective as the horticultural oils themselves for 

5 controlling specific diseases and insects. 

6 During the first public comment period there were 

7 27 written comments submitted, numerous oral 

8 comments.

9 When certifiers showed that 

10 horticultural oils are listed on 1,041 of their 

11 organic systems plans, there was an industry survey 

12 that showed overwhelming support of the continued 

13 use of this material.

14 During the second posting for public 

15 comment there were 30 written comments submitted. 

16 Of those there were 18 organic crop producers, 

17 three handlers, one international comment from an 

18 organic crop producer, two organic trade 

19 association comments in favor, IOIA was also in 

20 support.

21 There were two commenters that were 

22 opposed to the re-listing. One of these again 
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1 asking that this vote be tabled until these 

2 materials could be annotated.

3 Commenters, both rounds helped to 

4 explain how horticultural oils are used and why. 

5 They also pointed out that these materials are 

6 allowed for use worldwide by most organic 

7 certifying bodies for use in organic crop 

8 production.

9 During the last Sunset review cycle the 

10 actual usages have not changed much, but the 

11 overall use has gone up due to the expansion and 

12 increase in organic crop production. That's what 

13 I have now.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. Any 

15 discussion? Colehour?

16 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. I apologize, 

17 Harold, but can you remind me what the suggested 

18 annotations were? I apologize.

19 MEMBER AUSTIN: Hang on. Yes. The 

20 suggested annotations were to table this until the 

21 annotations could come forth to regulate the use 

22 patterns for this material to protect workers and 
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1 non-target arthropods from harm.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Anymore 

3 discussion?

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Ready for 

5 the vote? All those in favor of removing oils 

6 horticultural in those two uses as listed, raise 

7 your hand. All those opposed to removing this 

8 material from the National List, please raise your 

9 hand. Any abstentions or recusals?

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

11 yes, 14 no. The motion fails.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: We are on to soaps, 

13 insecticidal. Lisa.

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Insecticidal 

15 soaps are listed at '205.601(e) of the National 

16 List as insecticides (including acaricides or mite 

17 control), (8) soaps, insecticidal. Thanks.

18 MEMBER THICKE: Soap guy here. So, we 

19 received a lot of comments from producers who use 

20 insecticidal soaps. They're used particularly 

21 for soft bodied insects. And the thing that was 

22 good about it is that you can, after spraying you 
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1 can, there's no residual effect, and can enter the 

2 area again.

3 There was a comment by Beyond 

4 Pesticides that said the listing for insecticidal 

5 soaps should be annotated in a way that protects 

6 non-target arthropods from harm. If this is not 

7 possible, insecticidal should be de-listed.

8 We suggest this annotation, "Must not 

9 be used when predators, parasitoids, or 

10 pollinators are present." And the committee voted 

11 unanimously to retain it on the list.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion?

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing none, all 

14 those in favor of removing soaps, insecticidal from 

15 the National List, please raise your hand. All 

16 those opposed to removing it from the National 

17 List, please raise your hand. Any abstentions or 

18 recusals?

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

20 yes, 14 no. The motion fails.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Sticky traps and 

22 barriers. Lisa.
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1 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

2 substance is listed at '205.601 of the National 

3 List under Paragraph (e) as insecticides 

4 (including acaricides or mite control). (9) 

5 Sticky traps/barriers. Thanks.

6 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay. Sticky traps, 

7 barriers. Like it says, it's the wide range of 

8 traps and codings made from different materials. 

9 And I do agree with the concept that there could 

10 be restricted uses and/or limitations via an 

11 annotation.

12 And I, as I did on a few of the others, 

13 I request that the crops subcommittee reconsider 

14 adding an annotation to this listing, such as, must 

15 be used in a way that prevents the capture of 

16 non-target animals, for example.

17 Although I do want to add, in one 

18 comment it is mentioned that, you know, in addition 

19 to this fact, it is mentioned that some farmers will 

20 use these traps to monitor the presence of 

21 beneficial insects, which many of us don't 

22 necessarily see as positive. But that is what some 
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1 people do.

2 So I think that, you know, that could 

3 be considered a target animal, I would estimate. 

4 So I think it's a little bit confusing. And that's 

5 part of the reason that I think the subcommittee 

6 needs to consider this possibility, and/or, like 

7 I said, the wording might not be accurate.

8 I think both the public input and the 

9 subcommittee were basically on the same page in 

10 terms of re-listing as is. So, thank you.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour, are you 

12 prepared to bring specific wording for an 

13 annotation change to the subcommittee after this 

14 meeting?

15 MEMBER BONDERA: I'm happy to propose 

16 specific wording.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay.

18 MEMBER BONDERA: But like, we'll have 

19 to, you know, still discuss it an agree upon it 

20 obviously.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

22 MEMBER BONDERA: But yes. I'm happy 
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1 to work on that.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Any other 

3 discussion?

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no further 

5 discussion, ready for the vote. All those who wish 

6 to vote to remove sticky traps and barriers from 

7 the National List, please raise your hand. All 

8 those who wish to retain this sticky traps and 

9 barriers on the National List, please raise your 

10 hand. Any abstentions or recusals?

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

12 yes, 14 no. The motion fails.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Next up is sucrose 

14 octanoate esters.

15 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This listing 

16 is included at '205.601 of the National List, under 

17 Paragraph (e) as insecticides (including 

18 acaricides or mite control). (10) sucrose 

19 octanoate esters, task numbers 42922-74-7, 

20 58064-47-4, in accordance with approved labeling.

21 Just one note for the record, the 

22 reference in the packet also references the listing 
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1 at '205.603. But that will be considered 

2 separately by the Board under the livestock portion 

3 of the agenda, later this week. Thank you.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Francis.

5 MEMBER THICKE: Yes. Sucrose 

6 octanoate esters, or SOE, are allowable in crops 

7 and livestock to control soft bodied insects like 

8 white flies, aphids, and mealy bugs. We received 

9 some public comment, some support, not a lot of 

10 comments.

11 We received one comment opposed to it 

12 by Beyond Pesticides, saying that the technical 

13 reviews provide insufficient information to 

14 evaluate SOEs relative to aqua criteria.

15 Considering the absence of 

16 information, and absence of support for 

17 re-listing, we support the de-listing of SOE. The 

18 committee voted zero six in favor of re-listing.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion?

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no 

21 discussion, ready for the vote. All those in favor 

22 or removing SOEs from the National List, please 
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1 raise your hand. Those opposed to removing it, 

2 please raise your hand. Any abstentions or 

3 recusals?

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is one yes, 

5 13 no. The motion fails.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. We're on to 

7 pheromones. Lisa.

8 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The listing 

9 for this substance is at '205.601 of the National 

10 List under Paragraph (f) as insect management 

11 pheromones. Thanks.

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay, pheromones. 

13 During the first posting for public comment for 

14 this current Sunset cycle, there were numerous 

15 public comments provided both in writing and oral.

16 Several certifiers provided comments, 

17 one stated that they listed on 450 of their 

18 producers' organic systems plans. The 

19 overwhelming trend from the grower comments were 

20 that they, that how necessary these were to crop 

21 production processes. And that the loss of them 

22 would mean the removal of many acres of organic crop 
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1 production.

2 Tree fruit growers stated that this is 

3 their first line of control for pests such as 

4 codling moth and leaf roller. They also mentioned 

5 that the use of pheromones has increased during 

6 this past Sunset cycle, largely due to the increase 

7 of organic crop production, and especially as 

8 formulations have now been developed for specific 

9 targeted pests.

10 During the second posting for public 

11 comment there were 256 written comments submitted. 

12 Of these there were 14 grower producer comments, 

13 three handlers, one certifier providing comments 

14 to inputs reviewed, two stakeholder surveys 

15 showing their support for the continued listing, 

16 a trade association listing support, and several 

17 others that were still in favor, in support of.

18 Again, organic crop producers stated 

19 how pheromones are the foundation for a safe and 

20 effective control of the single most destructive 

21 pest in organic apple production, the codling moth. 

22 There is no effective replacement to aid in the 
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1 control of the codling moth or the leaf rollers.

2 Another commenter stated that 

3 pheromones have changed their entire chemical 

4 usage of chemicals, not only organically, but in 

5 their conventional crop production as well, for the 

6 betterment of our entire industry.

7 One public interest group commented, 

8 asking that, they would be okay with the listing 

9 if it was annotated. The annotation they felt 

10 better than the current annotation, needs to be 

11 limiting, in more passive dispensers without added 

12 toxicants, and only approved inert ingredients.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, Harold. 

14 Discussion?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no 

16 discussion, all those in favor of removing 

17 pheromones from the National List, please raise 

18 your hand. All those opposed to removing 

19 pheromones from the National List, please raise 

20 your hand. Any abstentions or recusals?

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is one yes, 

22 13 no. The motion fails.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Now we move on to 

2 Vitamin D3. Lisa.

3 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

4 substance is included at '205.601 of the National 

5 List under Paragraph (g), as rodenticides, Vitamin 

6 D3. Thank you.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Carmela. Isn't 

8 this yours? Vitamin D3? Oh, no, it was --

9 MEMBER BONDERA: I have it.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: -- Paula's right. 

11 So who did --

12 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. I took it over 

13 from Paula.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Oh, sorry.

15 MEMBER BONDERA: No, it's fine. It 

16 was confusing. When Paula left us we passed them 

17 on.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay.

19 MEMBER BONDERA: And it wasn't, 

20 frankly, I wasn't really prepared the other day 

21 either. I'm like, which items are mine? And I had 

22 to look at two different lists, because I forgot 
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1 about, that I took over some of Paula's. So, I had 

2 to review what was done. But I am as prepared as 

3 I am going to be for it. I haven't worked on it 

4 a lot. But looking through this Vitamin D3, which 

5 is used as a rodenticide, like was stated, you know, 

6 the questions or comments which are stated in our 

7 recommendation, or referred to at some level, are 

8 things related to the potentiality of human deaths. 

9 Non target toxicity is big. Like I said, children 

10 or pets, you know, accidentally consuming what is 

11 being used, had been placed as a rodenticide. And 

12 then the question of alternatives regarding traps 

13 or non-synthetic rodenticides, and their 

14 effectiveness. Generally speaking, the public 

15 comment was for re-listing, primarily, I mean, what 

16 I wrote down was six to two. So the ratio wasn't,

17 you know, that's 75/25. The subcommittee was, 

18 like it says, fully against whatever it is, opposed 

19 to de-listing. So, that's what I put together. 

20 I'm sure there's other additions. So, thank you.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Jean, did you have 

22 your hand up?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: May I have a 

2 question? Colehour, did, when you looked into 

3 this, did you find that the Vitamin D3 is really 

4 only used as a last resort? In other words, the 

5 farms have been doing everything from a management 

6 point of view to not have it? Did you find that 

7 most of them have to get specific permission from 

8 a certifier to use the D3?

9 MEMBER BONDERA: I'm not going to be 

10 able to respond to that as thoroughly as I'd like 

11 to. I think that ideally, yes. But there's 

12 definitely, you know, one of those questions of, 

13 you know, to what degree that was either verified 

14 or things were tried, is not always that clear. 

15 So, I think your point is good though, that it's 

16 not necessarily meant as the first approach. But 

17 I think that, you know, habit also can mean that 

18 that continues, even if used where it was used, 

19 versus trying other things when you're good.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Mac. And 

21 then I'm going to call on myself.

22 MEMBER STONE: So, at the farm level I 
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1 think certifiers when they haven't seen the use of 

2 this product before, then it ratchets up. Well, 

3 why are you needing it now kind of thing. So with 

4 food safety modernization and handling, you know, 

5 the use of the traps where other animals can't get 

6 to it, and all, is pretty common practice to meet 

7 food safety standards.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: I wanted to say 

9 something somewhat similar, which is that in crop 

10 field situations, such as this, it doesn't tend to 

11 work that well. So almost always the grower will 

12 have tried a lot of other things before trying this. 

13 Because they know it's not going to work that well, 

14 and you have to use regular mechanical traps with, 

15 you know, peanut butter or something else as bait. 

16 And also, clearing away habitat areas as the two 

17 main lines of defense. I think it's different in 

18 structural pest control situations though. But 

19 that really should fall under the National List in 

20 the handling portion more. And there it's the most 

21 benign in the hierarchy of more troubling things 

22 that could be used on the perimeters of buildings 
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1 and things. And so, it's a different story there. 

2 Nick.

3 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. Just to give 

4 you anecdotal information, we list Vitamin D3 as 

5 a sort of last resort on our organic system plan. 

6 That's the understanding we have. We list about 

7 six other things that we would do first. And 

8 compare it with, and we don't use it if it doesn't 

9 work in those situations. And to concur with what 

10 Zea just said, it's not, in structural situations 

11 the handling is probably more effective.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Further 

13 discussion? Okay.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ready for the vote. 

15 If you wish to remove Vitamin D3 from the National 

16 List, please raise your hand. Those opposed to 

17 removing it from the National List, please raise 

18 your hand. Any abstentions or recusals?

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was three 

20 yes, 11 no. The motion fails.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Copper 

22 sulfate and copper fixed we could perhaps take 
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1 together.

2 DR. BRINES: Okay. Great. Fixed 

3 coppers are included at '205.601 of the National 

4 List under Paragraph (I) as plant disease control. 

5 (2) Coppers, fixed, copper hydroxide, copper 

6 oxide, copper oxychloride, includes products 

7 exempted from EPA tolerance. Provided that, 

8 copper-based materials must be used in a manner 

9 that minimizes accumulation in the soil and shall 

10 not be used as herbicides. The second listing for 

11 copper sulfate also at Paragraph (I), number (3). 

12 Copper sulfate - Substance must be used in a manner 

13 that minimizes accumulation of copper in the soil. 

14 Thank you.

15 

16 

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. I'm the lead 

18 person on this one about these two. You know, 

19 copper, as everyone knows, has been controversial 

20 over the years. It's not the safest material of 

21 those that we have to use to produce organic crops. 

22 And there's been a lot of discussion on the 
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1 annotation, and whether it's really effective, and 

2 assures the necessary safety in its use, and in not 

3 leading to copper accumulation. There are issues 

4 been raised concerning overuse and abuse, 

5 concerning worker safety concerns, concerning 

6 acute toxicity if used outside of the label 

7 directions. But in general, when used in a manner 

8 that follows the label directions, and is 

9 appropriate for the site specific conditions, with 

10 most of the testimony we've heard is that is has 

11 not led to accumulation in the soil. This includes 

12 our survey after the first posting of certifiers. 

13 Well, not survey, but we posed the question in the 

14 first posting of whether they had, whether they 

15 were enforcing the annotation, and what they were 

16 seeing as a base, based on that. And most of the 

17 certifiers responded that it was in use by a very 

18 lot of their clients. And that they were requiring 

19 some sort of monitoring plan. And that they had 

20 not issued, they had, no one reported any instances 

21 of accumulation in the soil that led to a 

22 decertification or suspension. And a few of them 
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1 had issued a non-compliance for not having a 

2 suitable monitoring plan. But presumably those 

3 would have been corrected before a suspension 

4 occurred. And what we also know about copper is 

5 that soils vary extremely widely in what happens, 

6 in their amount of natural copper in them, and what 

7 happens to them when copper is added. And so, many 

8 soils are naturally deficient in copper. Many 

9 soils have enough going on in the soil biologically 

10 that they, copper is able to be assimilated into 

11 humus or rendered, well, buffered enough by the 

12 soil situation that we do not see accumulation 

13 occurring, including a fairly large dataset, as we 

14 heard from Dr. Grubinger this morning. So, we 

15 have, we did not request a new TR. But there was 

16 a fairly recent TR which did address the NOSB 

17 criteria. And we considered a few different 

18 possibilities of additional annotations in the 

19 subcommittee level. But none of those rose to the 

20 top as an additional annotation that we wish to put 

21 on this thing. In the public comment for this time 

22 a few additional annotations have been proposed. 
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1 It was suggested that we do a crop by crop necessity 

2 analysis. And it suggested that we somehow take 

3 some steps to limit situations of overuse of 

4 copper. None of the suggestions so far has been 

5 specific enough to me to work as an additional 

6 annotation. But anyone who does have specific 

7 language, who wishes to petition for such 

8 afterwards could lead us to take it up again. And 

9 so, after discussing it in the subcommittee we have 

10 voted unanimously to not remove it from the 

11 National List, among those who were present at the 

12 meeting. And not change the annotation beyond the 

13 one that is on there currently. Discussion? 

14 Colehour?

15 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. I think it's 

16 worth noting that at the subcommittee level there 

17 was abstention in terms of reaching a conclusion, 

18 based in part on what you just referred to of the 

19 annotation discussion. So --

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Oh, yes.

21 MEMBER BONDERA: I just wanted to 

22 remind everybody of that fact. Because I think 
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1 that what you say is completely accurate, that this 

2 is very complicated, and there's lots of options. 

3 And so, in terms of how, you know, coming up with 

4 the wording or addressing this is not so simple. 

5 And we could pursue an annotation via a petition 

6 process. I personally think that we, the NOSB 

7 should be pursuing an annotation via the 

8 subcommittee level. But you're going to ask me 

9 back, will I write it? And I haven't come up with 

10 any verbiage either. So I'm not going to be 

11 volunteering to lead that, just because I'm saying 

12 that I think we need it. Thank you.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you for the 

14 correction, Colehour. I was looking at my notes, 

15 reading abstain as absent, which are very close 

16 together, both physically and in word. Harold.

17 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thanks, Zea. As we 

18 heard in the spring meetings, both in written and 

19 then at oral testimony, the northwest has a lot of 

20 deficiencies, actually, with copper. Copper is 

21 also a main material that those comments told us 

22 for controlling corundum blight in their cherries, 
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1 as well as now with the loss of antibiotics, it is 

2 the primary defense for the organic tree fruit 

3 growers in the Northwest, protecting their crops 

4 from overwintering fire blight bacteria. So it's 

5 widely used, and widely relied upon, at least up 

6 in the northwest from the comments that we received 

7 from the spring. And then a few of the written 

8 comments and oral testimony this year on the fall, 

9 for the fall meeting.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Anymore 

11 discussion? Jean.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Was there a 

13 discussion in the subcommittee of trying to come 

14 up with an annotation which would allow a better 

15 understanding of the geographical regional 

16 variation in the copper levels that are already 

17 there in the soils, where the impact may be higher 

18 in some of these coppers in one area as opposed to 

19 other?

20 I mean, we heard this morning that in, 

21 from Dr. Grubinger, that in this area that he works 

22 in the, it's not an issue. However, obviously in 
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1 some parts of the country it may be an issue. So 

2 was that discussed as a potential annotation in 

3 subcommittee?

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: No. Because we 

5 don't even know how to get a handle on which parts 

6 of the county it is problematic in, versus others. 

7 You know, most of us are from, on the subcommittee 

8 are from copper deficient areas.

9 Out of five people there are four from 

10 the West, and then Francis. And then Francis 

11 didn't really mention if it's a problem in his area. 

12 But we're kind of short of subcommittee members for 

13 doing a lot of investigative work.

14 MEMBER THICKE: I could mention too 

15 that if we're going to look at regional 

16 differences, we should also look at difference in 

17 the soils, and their ability to be able to buffer.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Jennifer.

19 MEMBER TAYLOR: I see within your 

20 annotation you might be able to look at cultural 

21 --

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Louder, please.
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1 MEMBER TAYLOR: Cultural management 

2 strategies as well. It might be something that you 

3 could look at in the annotation.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Anyone else? 

5 Okay.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ready for the 

7 question. All those persons who like to remove the 

8 two coppers, fixed and sulfate, from the National 

9 List, please raise your hand. All those who would 

10 like to see the two coppers remain on the National 

11 List, please raise your hand. Any abstentions or 

12 recusals?

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is two yes, 

14 12 no. The motion fails.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. We'll move 

16 to hydrated lime. Lisa.

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The listing 

18 for hydrated lime is at '205.601 of the National 

19 List, Paragraph (I) as plant disease control. (4) 

20 hydrated lime. Thank you.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Thank you. 

22 Well, hydrated lime is a little, fairly simple 
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1 material. It is an essential component in the 

2 manufacture of lime sulfur. And also Bordeaux 

3 mix, which would be copper sulfate mixed with 

4 hydrated lime.

5 It's used to control a variety of pests 

6 in a variety of crops. And has been used for 200 

7 years or more with no established record of 

8 developing resistance to it that we could find.

9 The commenter, there was support for 

10 this material. And I did not, I must have breezed 

11 by it. But I didn't see specific points raised in 

12 opposition to this material. Perhaps someone else 

13 on the subcommittee captured that.

14 But we didn't get a great many comments 

15 on it, only a few. Because people, it's an easy 

16 thing to take for granted because it's usually part 

17 of something else, some other mixture which is 

18 often tank mixed at home, but could be bought as 

19 a separate product. So, is there any discussion 

20 concerning hydrated lime?

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ready for the vote? 

22 All those in favor of removing hydrated lime from 
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1 the National List, please raise your hand. All 

2 those opposed to removing hydrated lime from the 

3 National List, raise your hand. The chair notes 

4 one absence. Are there any abstentions or 

5 recusals?

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

7 yes, 13 no, one absent. The motion fails.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Potassium 

9 bicarbonate. Lisa.

10 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Potassium 

11 bicarbonate is listed at '205.601 of the National 

12 List under Paragraph (I) as plant disease control. 

13 Number (9) potassium bicarbonate. Thank you.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: I believe that's 

15 Harold.

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: Correct. Okay. For 

17 potassium bicarbonate there was a limited scope TR 

18 done on January of this year. This limited scope 

19 TR looked at two specific evaluation questions.

20 It asked about the actual substances or 

21 products that might take the place of this 

22 material. It also asked about alternative 
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1 practices that would make this material 

2 unnecessary.

3 While the limited scope TR did a good 

4 job of identifying the possible alternative 

5 materials or practices, further clarification the 

6 subcommittee felt was needed around the efficacy 

7 of those possible replacements, and identification 

8 under which conditions or scenarios the materials 

9 under review might possibly be the best 

10 replacement, or give better control.

11 During the first public comment period 

12 both written and oral comments at the La Jolla 

13 meeting, organic producers helped to add a little 

14 bit of clarity to those questions. In part organic 

15 producers response was that this material was still 

16 very necessary in organic crop production, 

17 especially as part of a resistance management 

18 process for mildew.

19 Several certifiers stated that this 

20 material was extensively still used, and showed up 

21 on numerous of their clients' organic systems 

22 plans. The organic producer comments also helped 
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1 to inform us that in different scenarios, and under 

2 different conditions potassium bicarbonate might 

3 be the best material to us, while at another time 

4 one of the alternatives might work best for the 

5 control of the specific disease targeted.

6 During our second public comment period 

7 there were 26 written comments. Fourteen of those 

8 were from producers in support of the continued 

9 listing, as well as three handlers, one trade 

10 association, IOIA.

11 One certifier listed inputs reviewed. 

12 One university member was in support, one crop 

13 advisor, two stakeholder surveys showing its 

14 continued usage and need.

15 Because of its unique mode of action one 

16 comment stated that it helps in resistance 

17 management where it can be a problem, which was also 

18 heard in the first round of public comments.

19 One public interest group was not in 

20 support of the re-listing, stating that potassium 

21 bicarbonate did not fit into any categories listed 

22 under 65 17(c)(1)(e)(1) of OFPA. That's it.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. 

2 Discussion? Okay.

3 MEMBER BONDERA: Sorry.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour.

5 MEMBER BONDERA: Harold, and I 

6 apologize. I'm going back to ask you further on 

7 a comment that you just cited. But did you look 

8 into that question that you just quoted at all, 

9 after, upon review, in terms of whether or not 

10 potassium bicarbonate fits within the OFPA section 

11 cited?

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: At this point it's a 

13 material that's been listed, has been listed since 

14 its inception on to the National List. I defer to 

15 the program if they have any clarification on that, 

16 or not.

17 DR. BRINES: Clarification on the 

18 question, Colehour. The question is whether the 

19 substance meets the OFPA criteria?

20 MEMBER AUSTIN: Exactly. What the 

21 position for not supporting the listing was that 

22 under that particular section, that citation, 
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1 which limits the types of synthetic materials that 

2 are allowed in organic production, copper and 

3 sulfur compounds, toxins derived from bacteria, 

4 pheromones, soaps, horticultural oils, fish 

5 emulsions, treated seed, vitamins and minerals, 

6 livestocks, parasiticides and medicines, and 

7 production aids. That's what they were referring 

8 to in that public comment.

9 DR. BRINES: Right. I would have to go 

10 back to the original review. My initial reaction 

11 is that it was probably considered as a mineral, 

12 which is one of the allowed categories under OFPA. 

13 But it would, as part of the review process when 

14 the NOSB recommended that material, it would have 

15 been subject to that review.

16 And also, as the rulemaking process we 

17 do verify the eligibility of the material in review 

18 of the Board recommendation for proposing to add 

19 a material to the National List.

20 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion, 

22 anymore?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ready for the 

2 question? All those in favor of removing 

3 potassium bicarbonate from the National List, 

4 please raise your hand. Those opposed to removing 

5 potassium bicarbonate from the National List, 

6 please raise your hand. Any recusals or 

7 abstentions?

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is one yes, 

9 12 no, one abstention. The motion fails.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Next is aquatic 

11 plant extracts. Lisa.

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This listing 

13 appears on '205.601 of the National List, under 

14 Paragraph (j) as plant or soil amendments. Number 

15 (1) Aquatic plant extracts (other than 

16 hydrolyzed). Extraction process is limited to the 

17 use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide. 

18 Solvent amount is limited to that amount necessary 

19 for extraction. Thank you.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: That would be 

21 Carmela.

22 MEMBER BECK: So, there was public 
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1 comment support in favor or re-listing aquatic 

2 plant extracts. It's in active use by the trade. 

3 And continues to be considered necessary to the 

4 production of fruit and vegetables.

5 The subcommittee identified in our 

6 proposal concern about potential seaweed over 

7 harvesting. And we appreciate the written and 

8 oral public comment presented on this topic.

9 As Zea indicated earlier today, the 

10 subcommittee will prioritize the request for a TR 

11 to determine potential future Board action on this 

12 topic across subcommittee.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? Jean.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: This is one of 

15 several materials that are presently on the list 

16 that I have a bit of a problem with, you know, as 

17 a person trained in biogeography. I sort of hate 

18 to see all of these kelp and seaweed-y words being 

19 used on the National List with an amazing lack of 

20 clarity.

21 And I think it is time for all of these 

22 materials to be, all the materials that are sort 
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1 of aquatic, seaweed types, and so forth, to be 

2 returned -- not returned obviously, we're going to 

3 vote on them today. But that all of them should 

4 be re-looked at.

5 And each of the appropriate 

6 subcommittees, as we come to them during this week, 

7 crops is just one of them, and there should be 

8 clarification as to what it is we mean by the 

9 seaweed that's named.

10 Because kelp is just a broad word that 

11 applies to an enormous range of specific plant 

12 species that are available in aquatic ecosystems. 

13 And they should be referred to by their Latin names 

14 at all times, so that we're clear as which ones that 

15 we're encouraging use of.

16 Especially given the situation in 

17 regards to the marine ecosystems, and the impact 

18 of human usage on them over the last decade or so. 

19 So, it's a hard one for me to be able to vote yes 

20 or no on.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: I would agree with 

22 what Jean has said. Although I'm clear on voting 
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1 to keep this on the list. But both the written and 

2 oral comment brought up some very significant 

3 issues that we have to look at in requesting a new 

4 TR for these.

5 One is proper reference to the Latin 

6 name, and perhaps limiting it to not all the Latin 

7 names of all the possible aquatic species, where 

8 some are much more prone to be over harvested, and 

9 much slower regrowth than others.

10 And secondly was the issue in the 

11 written comments concerning the arsenic 

12 accumulation in some of the species in some of the 

13 harvested areas. And we're going to have to ask 

14 the TR to do a survey worldwide. Because so far 

15 we've really only heard from Maine and Canada 

16 harvest interests.

17 But of course, the seaweeds and related 

18 species are worldwide produced and harvested. And 

19 some of these may be far more sustainable than 

20 others. And so, we have to take a look at all these 

21 issues. And the crops subcommittee will take this 

22 up. Anyone else have discussion?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ready for the 

2 question? All those in favor of removing aquatic 

3 plant extracts from the National List, please raise 

4 your hand. Those who wish this material to remain 

5 on the National List, please raise your hand. Any 

6 abstentions? Any recusals? No absences. A roll 

7 call vote has been requested by Ms. Taylor. We 

8 will do a roll call vote, starting from Calvin.

9 (Roll call vote)

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: All right. The 

11 vote was five yes, six no, three abstentions. The 

12 motion fails.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Humic 

14 acids. Lisa.

15 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This listing 

16 is at ' 205.601 of the National List, Paragraph (j) 

17 s plant or soil amendments. (3) Humic 

18 acids - naturally occurring deposits, water and 

19 alkali extracts only. Thank you.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: That would be 

21 Carmela.

22 MEMBER BECK: So, there was 
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1 substantial public comment support in favor of 

2 re-listing humic acids. Humic acids are in active 

3 use by the trade, and continue to be considered 

4 necessary to the production of fruit and 

5 vegetables.

6 There was some subcommittee concern 

7 regarding over reliance on the material in the 

8 absence of adequate soil building practices. The 

9 subcommittee might discuss potential annotation if 

10 applicable.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? 

12 Francis.

13 MEMBER THICKE: I have some concerns 

14 about such widespread use of humic acids in organic 

15 farming, mining and adding them. Keeping in mind 

16 that a major constituent of regular organic matter 

17 is humic acid. And we should be creating it in situ 

18 by our farming practices, not having to mine it and 

19 put it on the soil.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Further 

21 discussion? Colehour.

22 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. I just wanted 
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1 to repeat what also was, did come up in public 

2 comment, and we did discuss at the subcommittee 

3 level to some degree, regarding the -- I'm trying 

4 to find the right word.

5 But the manner of extraction of the 

6 humic acids is, you know, either synthetically 

7 extracted or, the types of extractions used, the 

8 materials used for extractions was a significant 

9 component.

10 And we even cite, and I don't know if 

11 there's any updates at all, in terms of 

12 classification of materials, final guidance 

13 issues, like the synthetically extracted humic 

14 acids.

15 They're not allowed in Japan. I think 

16 these are significant components of making the 

17 determination, and what is listed as it's listed. 

18 Thank you.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Harold.

20 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes. In a lot of the 

21 written comments that we received in the spring, 

22 and then several for this meeting, a lot of the tree 
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1 fruit growers, especially in the Northwest, cited 

2 comments and support of continued listing of the 

3 humics.

4 Those growers are dealing with organic 

5 matter that's less than one percent. So for them, 

6 even though they're using compost, and they're 

7 using other materials, it was brought to our 

8 attention that the continued use of humic acid for 

9 them was pretty critical in the establishment of 

10 the soil health and microbial activity.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. I'd like to 

12 add to that, that we heard really a lot of public 

13 comment concerning all different ways that people 

14 use it. But key among them was in the transition 

15 period, while they're still trying to build up 

16 their soil organic matter.

17 During that three years when they're 

18 starting from scratch they find it a particularly 

19 useful tool to use extracted humic acids. And one 

20 other thing that was touched on briefly in public 

21 comment is, because of it, humic properties when 

22 used in foliar spray, it really helps the plants 
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1 absorb the other nutrients that you're putting on 

2 with it.

3 So, we, for instance, use a fish product 

4 in a base of humic acid to help the plant take it 

5 up better. Any other discussion? Jennifer.

6 MEMBER TAYLOR: What we need to look a 

7 little bit more into how the process of making it, 

8 that we could distinguish a synthetically made one, 

9 versus --

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. There are, 

11 well, there are four forms that humic acid get, five 

12 forms that humic acids get onto organic ground. 

13 One is compost itself contains a certain amount of 

14 humic substances, although very small amounts, and 

15 tightly bound in the humus particles themselves. 

16 But that would be, you know, the most traditional, 

17 slowest way.

18 Then there's pure mined humate 

19 material, which is called leonardite, and probably 

20 some other mineral names too. And comes from mines 

21 throughout the United States, although mostly in 

22 the west. And way more in the United States than 
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1 in other countries.

2 Then, for extracting humates they will 

3 extract the mined materials with water at the most 

4 simple method, with alkali, such as we're talking 

5 about in the National List listing. And the alkali 

6 is usually potassium hydroxide. Or with other 

7 naturally occurring minerals such as potassium 

8 carbonate.

9 And those would be the extracted humic 

10 acids that we're talking about. These were, the 

11 alkali extraction was extensively reviewed when 

12 this was put on the National List. And of course, 

13 the mined humates would be allowed without, because 

14 they're non synthetic, without having to go on to 

15 the National List.

16 And I should also mention that we do now 

17 have equivalency with Japan. And so, the use of 

18 extracted humic acids does not affect trade with 

19 Japan.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Looks like we're 

21 ready for the vote. All those in favor of removing 

22 humic acids from the National List, please raise 
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1 your hand. Removing. All those opposed to 

2 removing from the National List humic acids. Any 

3 recusals or abstentions? Seeing none.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was four 

5 yes, ten no. The motion fails.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. Next is 

7 lignin sulfonate. And we're going to do the Sunset 

8 review at this time. And if it remains on the list 

9 after the vote, then we'll consider the petition 

10 to remove separately on the last day. But this 

11 will be a Sunset vote to remove or renew. Lisa.

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. And there are 

13 two listings for lignin sulfonate that are under 

14 review by the crops committee. So we'll take them 

15 up separates, consistent with the crops 

16 subcommittee proposals.

17 So the first listing is at '205.601(j) 

18 as plant or soil amendments. (4) lignin 

19 sulfonate chelating agent, dust suppressant. And 

20 for clarification, this is not the listing that's 

21 impacted by the petition later on the agenda. 

22 Thank you.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. This is 

2 Carmela's.

3 MEMBER BECK: So there was public 

4 comment support in favor of re-listing lignin 

5 sulfonate as a chelating agent and dust 

6 suppressant. Lignin sulfonates are in active use 

7 by the trade, and continue to be considered 

8 necessary.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. 

10 Discussion? Okay. Just a reminder that this is 

11 not the one the petition is for. And this is the 

12 one out of subcommittee that we recommend 

13 re-listing.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Those in favor or 

15 removing lignin sulfonate from the National List, 

16 please raise your hand. As I, specifically as a 

17 chelating agent, dust suppressant. Those opposed 

18 to removing the lignin sulfonate as a chelating 

19 agent from the National List, please raise your 

20 hand. Are there any abstentions or recusals? And 

21 I see no absences.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is seven 
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1 yes, seven no. The motion fails.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Before we move on I 

3 just have to say --

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I would like to call 

5 for a voice vote.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: A roll call vote?

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Voice vote, a roll 

8 call vote has been called by Tom. We will start 

9 with Mac.

10 (Roll call vote)

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: All right. Thank 

12 you for that correction. We had eight yes, six no.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Are we moving on? 

14 Okay.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: All right. This is 

16 what happens when you put amateurs in charge of 

17 counting votes. All right. We have consensus 

18 among the Board. It's seven yes, seven no. The 

19 motion fails.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. I find this 

21 very distressing that it came out of committee 

22 unanimous. There was no public comment against, 
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1 for removing it. And yet, seven people voted to 

2 remove it without one word of explanation in the 

3 discussion to the public. That is irresponsible 

4 of my fellow NOSB members who voted to remove it. 

5 So now we're going to move on to the 

6 other lignin sulfonate. Shame on you. The next 

7 material is lignin sulfonate. Lisa has already 

8 read it. Or have you?

9 DR. BRINES: Not yet.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. So, Lisa.

11 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The second 

12 listing for lignin sulfonate is at '205.601 of the 

13 National List under (l), as floating agents in 

14 post-harvest handling. (1) lignin sulfonate. 

15 Thank you.

16 MEMBER BECK: All right. So there was 

17 100 percent public comment support in favor of 

18 removing lignin sulfonate for use as floating agent 

19 from the National List. Lignin sulfonate for use 

20 as a floating agent are no longer in use by the 

21 trade. And it's therefore no longer considered to 

22 be necessary.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. Is 

2 there discussion? Or would anyone like to explain 

3 themselves retroactively, so I know it's right on 

4 the cover sheet? Jean, and then Harold. Carmela 

5 already spoke about it.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. So, 

7 commenting on lignin sulfonate as a floating agent, 

8 post-harvest handling. And also in the one 

9 before. Lignin sulfonate is one of those 

10 materials that, well, Jean doesn't really like it 

11 all.

12 Because it is a, it comes as a byproduct 

13 from the pulp and paper industry process. And I 

14 have just never been comfortable with the extent 

15 to which there are a wide range of residues 

16 potentially in lignin sulfonate.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Harold.

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Lignin 

19 sulfonate for this particular usage, as a floating 

20 agent, has really pretty much been mothballed by 

21 the producers, both organically and 

22 conventionally, just because they're, it's been 
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1 used to transport pears when they're packing it, 

2 to get them to float, so they could go up over the 

3 packing line.

4 Most of the packing houses now have gone 

5 to a boatless water conveyor system, set of belts 

6 within their packing facilities. So the need for 

7 this particular use has really pretty much gone 

8 away. So I'm going to vote in favor of removing 

9 this when we come to a vote.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: More discussion? 

11 I'd like to ask Jean what she bases that opinion 

12 about residues in the lignin sulfonate on.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I didn't bring all 

14 my notes on this one with me. And I believe I 

15 commented on it also at the last meeting. Is that 

16 byproducts of the pulp and paper industry find, 

17 that produce the pulp is, waste materials is 

18 produced from a large number of the different 

19 pulping processes.

20 And some of those pulping processes are 

21 worse than others. But all of them have the 

22 potential to come, to include things like dioxins, 
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1 for example, which from research that I did a number 

2 of years ago are not indicated as being that super 

3 healthy. Endocrine disrupters. And there are a 

4 range of others that remain in. And I don't have 

5 them in front of me today. And I apologize.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Anymore 

7 discussion? Tracy.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I'll only add that 

9 we looked at this pretty extensively as part of the 

10 aquaculture materials and livestock. And that's 

11 where I think some of these opinions have been 

12 formed as far as the manufacturing process of the 

13 material.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Any other 

15 discussion?

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: There being no 

17 further discussion, all those in favor of removing 

18 lignin sulfonate as a floating agent in 

19 post-harvest handling, please raise your hand. 

20 Anyone wishing to leave this material on the 

21 National List, please raise your hand. Any 

22 abstentions? Any recusals? And no absences.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is 14 yes, 

2 zero no. The motion passes.

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. We will 

4 now consider the petition to have been resolved as 

5 well. Right? Yes. Okay.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Next, is there any 

7 desire to take a ten minute break?

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Sure.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, a bathroom 

10 break. There you go. That's what we're asked 

11 for. There will be a ten minute break. And then 

12 we'll return back and complete the crops Sunset 

13 materials before we break for the evening. Thank 

14 you.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

16 went off the record at 4:15 p.m. and resumed at 4:25 

17 p.m.)

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, we are 

19 ready to continue and complete the Sunset 17 on the 

20 crops materials. And the next material, Zea, if 

21 you would take it over, please. If you would like 

22 to talk, if you could go outside that will be fine, 
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1 but not in here.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, everyone, 

3 we're reconvened. Helps to have a loud voice. 

4 Our next item is magnesium sulfate. Lisa?

5 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The listing 

6 for magnesium sulfate is at section 205.601 of the 

7 National List under Paragraph j as plant or soil 

8 amendment. Five magnesium sulfate allowed with 

9 the documented soil deficiency. Thank you.

10 MEMBER BECK: So there was substantial 

11 public comment support in favor of relisting 

12 magnesium sulfate. It is in active use by the 

13 trade and continues to be considered necessary to 

14 the production of fruit and vegetables.

15 As Marty mentioned today, the 

16 subcommittee could look at changing the annotation 

17 if applicable to read deficiency must be 

18 documented.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, is there any 

20 discussion, particularly among people who want to 

21 vote it off and explain why before we have the vote.

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I am seeing no 
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1 discussion. Harold, stop laughing. Okay. I am 

2 seeing no discussion on this material. We move to 

3 a vote. All those who wish to remove magnesium 

4 sulfate from the National List, please raise your 

5 hands and have an answer as to why you're doing it.

6 All those who wish to leave this 

7 material, magnesium sulfate, on the National List, 

8 please raise your hand. Are there any abstentions 

9 or recusals. No absences, okay good. 

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: There is one yes, 

11 thirteen no's, the motion fails.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, next is 

13 micronutrient. Lisa?

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. There are two 

15 listings for micronutrients that will be 

16 considered as a group under 205.601(j) as plant or 

17 soil amendment, six micronutrients not to be used 

18 as a defoliant, herbicide, or desiccant.

19 Those made from nitrates or chlorides 

20 are not allowed. Soil deficiency must be documented 

21 by testing. I soluble boron products, II or two 

22 sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of 
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1 zinc, copper, iron, manganese, mallipattinam, 

2 selenium and cobalt. Thank you.

3 MEMBER BECK: So once again, there was 

4 substantial public comment support in favor of 

5 relisting micronutrients. The proposed 

6 annotation change will be discussed on Thursday. 

7 Micronutrients are in active use by the trade and 

8 they continue to be considered necessary to the 

9 production of fruits and vegetables.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? I'll 

11 start. A couple of our public commenter seemed 

12 confused that the first sentence of the 

13 subcommittee review had a list of micronutrients 

14 that was not the same as the one in the actual 

15 National List reference.

16 And that included nickel and chromium 

17 which are not on the National List. So I'm 

18 wondering if we can strike those two words from the 

19 subcommittee review portion to make it consistent?

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I believe that the 

21 ruling from the NOP is that this is not a 

22 substantive change and we can do that.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. And do 

2 we have to take a vote to do that, or do we have 

3 general consensus, because I didn't notice this 

4 discrepancy until public comment came in.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Is there general 

6 consensus on the Board that we can make this 

7 non-substantive change to remove these two 

8 materials from this list? Say again which two they 

9 are, they are?

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Nickel and 

11 chromium.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Nickel and 

13 chromium.

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: I assume this was 

15 just a mistake. Yes, that's fine.

16 DR. BRINES: If I could clarify, I 

17 think the proposal had listed chromium and nickel 

18 just as examples of micronutrients that are used. 

19 I don't think specifically in the text it indicated 

20 that those were for use in organic production, but 

21 was more generally talking about micronutrients.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: I understand that, 
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1 but some members of the public appear to think that 

2 it would allow them.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Are we ready for the 

4 vote? Jennifer.

5 MEMBER TAYLOR: CID thinks that it 

6 might be possible for an annotation for this, 

7 anything to have the user maybe refer to their 

8 organic system plan of use cultural practices that 

9 also may improve the health of the soil or the 

10 system or any kind of annotation to use?

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: It has an 

12 annotation currently, soil deficiency must be 

13 documented by testing, and we're proposing a change 

14 to that which will be discussed Thursday.

15 Additional changes to the annotation 

16 would have to go back to the subcommittee and be 

17 discussed.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ready for the 

19 question? All those who wish to remove 

20 micronutrients as read into the record from the 

21 National List, please raise your hand. All those 

22 who wish to leave micronutrients on the National 
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1 List, please raise your hand.

2 Any absences or recusals? Mac, I 

3 didn't see your hand. Okay. His hand is there, 

4 okay. No abstentions, no recusals, no absences, 

5 thank you.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was zero yes, 

7 fourteen no, the motion fails.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Liquid fish 

9 products, Lisa?

10 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

11 liquid fish products is currently listed at Section 

12 205.601 of the National List under Paragraph j as 

13 plant or soil amendments.

14 Number 7, liquid fish products can be 

15 pH adjusted with sulfuric, citric, or phosphoric 

16 acid. The amount of acid used shall not exceed the 

17 minimum needed to lower the pH to 3.5. Thank you.

18 MEMBER BECK: So once again, there was 

19 substantial public comment support in favor of 

20 relisting liquid fish products. Liquid fish 

21 products are in active use by the trade and continue 

22 to be considered necessary to production of fruit 
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1 and vegetables.

2 The subcommittee identified in our 

3 proposal concern regarding the sustainable 

4 harvesting of fisheries. We plan to address our 

5 concerns with the TR request.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? 

7 Tracy? Tracy?

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: This is one I've 

9 really kind of gone back and forth on. I 

10 definitely think it's an important tool for 

11 farmers, but I'm also concerned about the 

12 environmental impact, so I'm glad we're going to 

13 see the TR. And while I'm going to vote to keep 

14 it on the National List, I do have some reservations 

15 about it.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Jean?

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: As with all the 

18 other, the fish, liquid fish, seaweeds, all that 

19 from the ocean, I also have ongoing serious 

20 concerns about them.

21 I have to admit and disclose that I 

22 definitely use the liquid fish products in my 
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1 gardens, and it's great and it works just super. 

2 And so the idea of actually voting against it, I 

3 know I would get into a lot of trouble from a large 

4 number of stakeholders.

5 But it's really quite difficult for me 

6 on this just because we don't really have, I think 

7 as of yet, adequate information to really fully 

8 address the range of marine aqua system issues that 

9 come from this. So I'm glad that we're going to 

10 be pursuing it in more detail in the crop 

11 subcommittee in the next session.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Tracy?

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Just to follow up, 

14 I neglected to mention that we've discussed sort 

15 of amongst ourselves when we were struggling with 

16 some of these issues a discussion about the fact 

17 that it seems more important, it has one purpose 

18 in crops and a different one, for instance in 

19 handling, even though it's still a sea product.

20 And so there is sort of a sense that 

21 maybe we need to look at this more as a systems 

22 approach and comprehensively rather than, you 
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1 know, one specific use at a time and see if we can 

2 get a better sense for a comprehensive approach to 

3 it. So hopefully we'll get some feedback. You're 

4 looking confused.

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: Do you mean trying 

6 to combine fish in handling with fish in crop?

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: No. Just sort of 

8 looking at the overwhelming impact of the 

9 harvesting of sea products, whether it's seaweed 

10 or fish or fish products, and sort of try to wrestle 

11 some of that around. I know that didn't sound very 

12 articulate, I'm sorry.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Jean?

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Did you get any data 

15 in the crop subcommittee when you were working on 

16 this or from additional public comment? I 

17 certainly didn't see any on the actual amount of 

18 liquid fish that is utilized in this aspect of the 

19 fish byproducts that come from marine ecosystems?

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Carmela, can you 

21 address that?

22 MEMBER BECK: Well, the question is how 
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1 much is utilized? No, I don't know that. We've 

2 got, like, number of products that are out there.

3 MEMBER THICKE: It's pretty widely 

4 used in the Midwest for organic production.

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: And I'll call on 

6 myself. Not only is it extremely widely used, I 

7 think we had it on over 1,000 organic system plants. 

8 But there's a worldwide shortage of fish this 

9 summer when people were really, for fertilizer 

10 because most of it goes into fish meal to feed 

11 farmed fish. And the suppliers were scrambling

12 around to find enough supply. Harold?

13 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thanks. Yes, it's in 

14 the northwest it's used quite a bit as well, both 

15 on full-ear and out on the ground, and I think by 

16 the quest to gather more information, to look down 

17 the road at this material, I think shows that we're 

18 hearing the public comment, we're seeing the 

19 concerns, but we're also addressing the fact that 

20 this is a widely used material that organic growers 

21 have and handlers have developed their businesses 

22 as part of their tools. And so I think looking 
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1 further at this I think it's imperative that we have 

2 to do that. And I think this is the right approach 

3 to take.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Tom?

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I have a question for 

6 my colleagues, probably mostly the ones that sit 

7 on both the handling and the crops committees. But 

8 in the handling committee there were several issues 

9 raised related to environmental concerns of fish 

10 harvesting. I wanted to know or understand how 

11 that's different than here, since that's not been 

12 discussed in detail.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: You mumbled at the 

14 end. Could you review that last --

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: How that's different 

16 than the fish products used for crop production 

17 since that wasn't given in much detail.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: What do you mean, 

19 different?

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Are there any 

21 difference in the environmental concerns between 

22 the fish products used for human consumption and 
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1 the fish products used for crop production?

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, there are a 

3 number of differences. As we heard in the fish 

4 oil, it's strictly byproduct of certain species 

5 that are caught for other purposes or caught in nets 

6 when they're trying to get other fish.

7 And fish for fertilizer, it's a 

8 different type of byproducts. Often it's the 

9 byproduct after they're getting the fish ready for 

10 human consumption and then they have the heads and 

11 the tails and the bones and everything. And then 

12 they ferment that or hydrolysis that.

13 There is some amount of catching fish 

14 specifically for fish fertilizer, but much less 

15 prevalent than for fish oil. And they are fairly 

16 different set of things to look at. I mean, there 

17 are similarities of course, but there's 

18 differences.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Can I follow up with 

20 you? So if I understand it, they're both 

21 byproducts from the fishing industry?

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Not exclusively in 
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1 the case of fish fertilizers. I believe that there 

2 are some, you know, like, anchovies and the lower 

3 food chain levels of fish that might be caught to 

4 make more fertilizer, but I'm not positive about 

5 that which is why we would need a TR. Jean?

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So while I will be 

7 voting in favor of this, I do so with extreme 

8 reluctance and in anticipation of us being able to 

9 come up with some good information in the next few 

10 months which will allow us if necessary to 

11 readdress this in some form or other, whether it's 

12 an annotation or a petition to do something else, 

13 I don't know. But I just want you to know that 

14 prior to my vote here.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Lisa?

16 MEMBER DE LIMA: I just want to put out 

17 there that I'm in the same boat as Tracy and Madam 

18 Chair, that I'm very uncomfortable with this, but 

19 I'm going to vote for now to keep it on the list 

20 until we get more information.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: It looks like we've 

22 finished discussion on this matter. All those in 
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1 favor of removing liquid fish products as plant or 

2 soil amendments, et cetera, from the National List, 

3 please raise your hand. Those opposed to removing 

4 the liquid fish products from the National List, 

5 please raise your hand. Any abstentions, 

6 recusals? And I note no absences. Thank you.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Vote was one yes, 

8 thirteen no, motion fails.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: We are on to vitamin 

10 B1, C, and E which we will take together. Lisa?

11 DR. BRINES: Thank you. These 

12 substances are included at Section 205.601 of the 

13 National List, Paragraph J as plant or soil 

14 Amendment 8, vitamins E1, C, and E. Thank you.

15 MEMBER BECK: So there was some public 

16 comment support in favor of relisting vitamins B1, 

17 C, and E. These vitamins are in use by the trade 

18 and continue to be considered necessary to 

19 production of fruit and vegetables. The 

20 subcommittee requested a TR but it was not issued 

21 until after our proposals were posted. To date, 

22 the TR has not been reviewed or accepted by the 
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1 subcommittee.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? I 

3 will just say that this is one, the uses of these 

4 things are not -- they're transparent. And of the 

5 three, the most widely used by far is the 

6 tocopherols Vitamin D as a stabilizer and other 

7 microbial products and blended products. And so 

8 it's there in dozens and dozens of OMRI products 

9 if not more than dozens. But you don't see it on 

10 the surface because it's not something that anyone 

11 just goes out and applies by itself.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I'm seeing no 

13 discussion, so we'll move to a vote. Those who 

14 wish to remove vitamins B1, C, and E from that 

15 National List, please raise your hand. Those 

16 opposed to removal of vitamin B1, C, and E from the 

17 National List, please raise your hand. Any 

18 abstentions, recusals? And no absences, thank 

19 you.

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: For which?

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Keeping it on the 

22 list. Yes.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Vote is one yes, 

2 thirteen no, the motion fails.

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: Now I'm sure 

4 everyone has been waiting for ethylene gas. Lisa?

5 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

6 substance is included at Section 205.601 of the 

7 National List at Paragraph K as plant growth 

8 regulators, ethylene gas for regulation of 

9 pineapple flowering. Thank you.

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: Oh boy, here we go. 

11 Okay, during our first public comment period for 

12 ethylene, there were five comments submitted. 

13 Most in favor, those opposed bringing the issue 

14 that material was used primarily by larger growers 

15 while smaller growers we didn't hear from and they 

16 don't rely upon it. So they question the necessity 

17 of it. There were no human health or environmental 

18 issues or concerns that were brought to the 

19 subcommittee during this sunset review cycle that 

20 had not been previously discussed and addressed in 

21 previous sunset reviews.

22 Following the La Hoya meeting, the 
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1 subcommittee, during our discussions and stuff, we 

2 were still concerned about the lack of actual 

3 stakeholder crop producer responses. We didn't 

4 feel like we heard back from the growers. Did they 

5 still find this to be necessary to production? 

6 Have they done work with the alternatives, and were 

7 those viable? So during this cycle, the second 

8 posting for public comment, we've heard that first 

9 of all that those growers hadn't heard about the 

10 first posting for public comment.

11 We got 42 comments in response this 

12 time, most favorable for relisting. They pointed 

13 out that the lack of participation was from a lack 

14 of communication and their not knowing it. There 

15 were two public interest groups that were opposed 

16 to the relisting. Comments showed wide range of 

17 grower sizes from small to large growers that 

18 actually use this material. We heard that the last 

19 day and a half in oral comments substantiating 

20 that.

21 We've received a petition today, plus 

22 there were also comments in the written public 
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1 comments about that co-op and the petition to keep 

2 this material listed. Okay, one of the comments 

3 or one of the concerns in the past has been about 

4 alternatives: were there any, have they been looked 

5 at? We've received multiple comments back that 

6 they have looked at alternatives. The 

7 alternatives have not been working for them.

8 OPWC also included in their comments 

9 that there was one trial showing three five acre 

10 farms that attempted to farm pineapples without 

11 ethylene and they failed from a commercial 

12 standpoint. So we had an overwhelming show of 

13 support this round of the public comments coming 

14 out. Like I said, we had 43 comments this period, 

15 42 comments this period, and what did we hear from 

16 them?

17 We heard from 30 organic producers with 

18 written comments, 4 manufacturers, 3 organic 

19 stakeholders that were all in support. And we 

20 heard from the ten oral testimonies in the last day 

21 and a half showing how important it was and that 

22 without this material staying on the National List, 
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1 that it would pretty much mean the end to the 

2 organic pineapple production in Costa Rica.

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. 

4 Discussion? Francis?

5 MEMBER AUSTIN: I would like to make 

6 the first comment on the lighter side. The 

7 observation that Harold looks like he's up in the 

8 sky booth calling the football game. Thanks to 

9 Nick for that.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? Nick?

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, this is for both 

13 Harold and Colehour. We know that what the 

14 situation is from the Costa Rican growers. Did we 

15 hear from growers from any other countries, 

16 including the United States, that had a different 

17 message or didn't have a message at all? In other 

18 words, do you feel we've heard from everybody that 

19 is affected? I know that Costa Rica is probably 

20 the largest producer that's concerned here with the 

21 U.S. market. But what have we heard from other 

22 producers in other countries?
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: The only other 

2 comment, Nick, that we heard back was from one 

3 consulting doing, and he didn't specify which other 

4 countries. But he did say that it was used 

5 elsewhere. But we didn't get any specifics on 

6 that.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Harold, we did hear 

8 from one in Mexico, the one you just cited with the 

9 trial. That was in Mexico.

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes. Okay, so we had 

11 two comments back.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour?

13 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, I can respond to 

14 that in terms of at the subcommittee level I did 

15 state that I do grow pineapples on my farm in 

16 Hawaii. And if you are direct marketing the 

17 pineapples, especially if you're small scale and 

18 you're not trying to export them, that, 

19 essentially, I have plenty of myself and plenty of 

20 neighbors in Hawaii who do not use ethylene gas. 

21 So we did discuss that at the subcommittee level. 

22 It wasn't testimony, it was discussion.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'll call on 

2 myself. Nick, in answer to your question and also 

3 to address another point that I think this 

4 situation raised. When this was originally put on 

5 the National List ten years ago I believe, or 

6 longer, 2001, we did not have verbal comments from 

7 anyone flying up to speak to us in oral comment.

8 But we received written comments from 

9 a number of other countries, mostly South American 

10 countries, rather than other pineapple growing 

11 regions, which are extensive in places like India 

12 and the Philippines, and I think Malaysia or 

13 Indonesia, you know, some Asian countries because 

14 those do not typically go to the United States, 

15 whereas the South American ones do.

16 And we did get statistics, both 

17 verbally where the gentleman said Costa Rica 

18 supplies 98 percent of U.S. pineapples, and in 

19 written comment there was one that fed 83 percent 

20 of U.S. pineapples and named Mexico, Guatemala, and 

21 one or two other South American countries as the 

22 balance.
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1 What this leads, what the problem leads 

2 to is that when Harold and anyone else goes to 

3 research the public comment record from those days, 

4 all that is really available is the transcript of 

5 the meeting. And if nobody showed, because it was 

6 before the days of regulations.gov, and so written 

7 comments came in and they were available for people 

8 to see at the time, but finding them now would be, 

9 like, totally impossible.

10 So the transcript of the meeting only 

11 discussed what happened in general terms and the 

12 issues, but didn't say we got 14 comments from this 

13 country and, you know, this many comments from the 

14 other. So this is something that we hope to 

15 correct for future boards because it has been very 

16 difficult on a few of these things where issues were 

17 well aired in the past, but we don't have access 

18 to that.

19 And so the fact that people came 

20 verbally and it's in the transcript was very 

21 helpful. Harold summarizing the exact numbers of 

22 comments we got was very helpful. And because none 
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1 of this information we received was in the original 

2 posting, we'll prepare a cover sheet. The post 

3 meeting cover sheet will summarize some of the 

4 input that we heard during the meeting so that the 

5 future Board and members of the public who wish to 

6 look back on it have a better documentation of what 

7 happened.

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: Thank you, Zea, for 

9 that.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour?

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, I want to take a 

12 few minutes of our time to put in the record a 

13 slightly different set of perspectives on this 

14 topic of ethylene gas and pineapples than has been 

15 presented. And I honestly do not think that 

16 somebody could argue that I could have or should 

17 have asked these as questions to the people while 

18 they were testifying. But honestly, I think it's 

19 more perspective than question/answers.

20 And I just want to talk about organics 

21 for a second and think about creating an organic 

22 system that's reliant on a synthetic and how, from 
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1 my perspective and experience, that's not my role 

2 or goal and sitting here on the NOSB. That's 

3 something I'm trying to, I mean, that's one of the 

4 reasons that we have Sunset, but if you read off, 

5 but you don't want to be dependent upon a synthetic.

6 And I think that frankly and 

7 truthfully, I live in Hawaii. And where did Dole 

8 have their pineapple production 20 years ago? It 

9 wasn't in Costa Rica. Not at all. If you listen 

10 to the testimony and you listen to the numbers of 

11 years that those people were talking about, not one 

12 of them mentioned any 20 years ago. There was no 

13 organic pineapple or export industry in the country 

14 of Costa Rica 20 years ago.

15 Dole, the company, moved it from Hawaii 

16 where they had all of their, they're called 

17 plantations in the State of Hawaii, operations, 

18 producing pineapples, organic pineapples and 

19 otherwise from Hawaii because it was too costly for 

20 the company, Dole, to Costa Rica. That is what 

21 happened. I'm speaking about reality, not my 

22 opinion. And all of those people who worked for 
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1 those all went out of work. So if we're considering 

2 the impacts on families and the impacts on people, 

3 it all happened in the State of Hawaii.

4 And they all moved to, it all got moved 

5 to Costa Rica. And I think that that dependency 

6 on a market, which is the United States depending 

7 on organic pineapples being imported into the 

8 country from Costa Rica which, like I just said and 

9 it's the truth, I'm not hypothesizing, moves when 

10 they aren't making enough money, then what's going 

11 to happen to those people who've become dependent 

12 on it in the country of Costa Rica, which I 

13 understand these people are still here right now 

14 listening to me, and we heard their testimony, 

15 they're relying on this, will we destroy them?

16 No, but will a company that moves 

17 destroy them? So I want us to think about that 

18 dependency issue, but I also want us to think about 

19 what we saw in some of those pictures because I 

20 think that was critical.

21 That was monoculture. And I 

22 understand organic systems very well. I live in 
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1 one and I work in them and I do things in them. 

2 Organic systems aren't about monoculture. But 

3 what we saw in those pictures was monoculture, and 

4 that's the system that's not just created, but 

5 these families are dependent on.

6 And I'm going to wrap up in a second, 

7 but I just want to make a couple more quick 

8 comments. I already mentioned the fact that small 

9 scale direct operators which primarily isn't 

10 what's happening in Costa Rica pineapple 

11 production, like me, for example, I'm direct 

12 selling my pineapples. I don't need them at one 

13 time to go on a container to be shipped somewhere. 

14 And so I think that these factors relate to the 

15 concept of seasons.

16 I grew up on a farm in Oregon. We had 

17 seasons. I live in Hawaii, we have different 

18 seasons, just like in Costa Rica. We have two 

19 seasons, not four. We have rainy and wet season. 

20 But realistically and honestly, organics is trying 

21 to imitate conventional and it's trying to say all 

22 products that you want are available 24/7 around 
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1 the world. And organics needs to really look to 

2 be unique and different and stand out from 

3 conventional, not just imitate the systems that are 

4 in place.

5 And I think that we don't need to be 

6 relying on imitation and people making a little bit 

7 more money, that's not our goal or our role. I'm 

8 not concerned. Sitting on the NOSB, I'm not 

9 worried about how much money is being made. That's 

10 not one of our decision factors.

11 And I really think that for that reason, 

12 even though I already know that I will not, my vote 

13 will not be the end of the day, the result, I'm not 

14 going to vote in support of continuing relying on 

15 ethylene gas for inducing the flowers of pineapples 

16 so that they can be more easily exported by these 

17 companies to the stores, so they could be 

18 distributed to people instead of having them rely 

19 on more seasonality and functionality, and/or to 

20 wrap it up, to be paying those people in Costa Rica 

21 more money for more work to be managing those 

22 pineapples on the ground and the company not making 
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1 as much profit.

2 So I just want to put those thoughts out 

3 there because they are reality, and they I think 

4 really should be affecting our decisions about this 

5 kind of question. Thank you.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Francis and then 

7 Nick.

8 MEMBER THICKE: I just want to explain 

9 why I'm going to abstain, because I don't want to 

10 vote against all these people whose livelihood we 

11 heard about, depends upon it, but I can't really 

12 vote for this kind of a system that depends so 

13 heavily on growth regulators to produce that kind 

14 of -- I think it's against organic principals.

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: I want to echo what 

16 Colehour and Francis just said, and I will probably 

17 abstain as well. This, in my opinion, is creature, 

18 if you will, that we created here at the NOSB. Not 

19 us personally, but previous NOSB Boards.

20 And there are a lot of these things that 

21 seem like it was a good idea at the time. However, 

22 this is also a situation where I would strongly 
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1 advocate for a time limit on this because I don't 

2 see, if we would seriously ever want to consider 

3 breaking this cycle and having a production system 

4 that is more compatible with organic principals, 

5 then we should phase it out. And this would be, in 

6 my opinion, an excellent example of where a time 

7 limitation would be called for.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, I think this is 

9 actually a very difficult one to vote on. I agree 

10 completely with what Colehour said. And I also 

11 would express my serious concern about 

12 monoculture, monoculture everywhere, and 

13 especially when I look and remember Costa Rica from 

14 40 and 50 years ago.

15 Monoculture isn't good, we all know 

16 that. We absolutely know that, and yet we, as Nick 

17 said, have created a situation in Costa Rica where 

18 monoculture and the demands of whoever it is, Whole 

19 Foods, you name it, any of the big distribution 

20 companies, they want those pineapples all at once 

21 at a certain time. So we're part of a global 

22 system, and this is placed unusual and unfortunate 
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1 pressure, I think, on organic producers as well as 

2 conventional producers.

3 So I will be voting to keep the ethylene 

4 because, you know, we've all got us into this 

5 position. It's not a single person that's done 

6 this. They didn't do this thing out of 

7 vindictiveness. I believe that the test would be 

8 that yes, this is necessary as a way for the organic 

9 farmers to produce this commodity. But it's a

10 commodity based approach, it's not an ecosystem 

11 approach.

12 And I would like our colleagues and 

13 friends who so thoughtfully came from Costa Rica 

14 who are still presently here in the room to hear 

15 the message that we believe, I should speak for 

16 myself, I believe that we should be as organic 

17 certifiers and inspectors going out onto these 

18 farms, be looking for the necessary bio-diversity 

19 which is absolutely critical for the long term 

20 sustainability of all of the agroecology 

21 ecosystems that we should be looking at when we do 

22 our organic certification.
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1 And this would give us an almost classic 

2 situation that we have developed here in Costa Rica 

3 over the last very few years to have the systems 

4 that we have here in place. But in the meanwhile, 

5 I will vote for the ethylene to remain as it is.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, I'm going to 

7 call on myself, and then Harold I believe had his 

8 hand up. I do think that those people who are 

9 interested in getting this off the list in the 

10 future should learn a lesson that we learned from 

11 how painful it was with tetracycline, and not put 

12 the cart before the horse, and immediately call on 

13 the trade and call on the research community by 

14 putting this on our research priorities for the 

15 future so that the research needs can be 

16 articulated and the research kicked off.

17 We didn't hear anything in the 

18 testimony about alternatives that seem to have any 

19 viability whatsoever. And that investigation 

20 needs to start right away if this is going to come 

21 off. And so being we're so not there yet, I don't 

22 see a time limit as appropriate for this time. But 
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1 hopefully in five years, we could be further along 

2 with a research on the alternatives to that. Okay, 

3 Harold?

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Thanks, Zea. 

5 I think one of the things I would like to point out 

6 is that 20 years ago NOFA was just becoming into 

7 place, the National List was just becoming to be 

8 outlined, and there was some pretty organic savvy 

9 people 20 years ago that were helping to put all 

10 of this into place, and there's a reason why.

11 They were looking to the future of what 

12 organics, not was at that moment but what organics 

13 potentially had the ability to become. While I 

14 agree with some of Colehour's comments that we have 

15 to look at the means and the wet methods that 

16 they're using to farm these things, I think we have 

17 to also look at the diversity which now represents 

18 what organic production, organic handling, organic 

19 sales are all about, and that is there are those 

20 farmstead type of sales.

21 But there's also that commercial viable 

22 side that we have to rely on that the consumers have 
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1 grown to become accustomed to. They want to see 

2 a supply, they want to see pineapples that are 

3 available for processing, they want to see

4 pineapples that are available at specific times of 

5 the year. There's a lot of people besides these 

6 growers in Costa Rica that our decisions will 

7 impact in a negative way if we de-list this 

8 material. So I think we're taking a practical 

9 approach.

10 I think looking for this as a research 

11 priority down the road I think makes absolute 

12 sense, and I think we all agree that we didn't like 

13 some of the pictures that we saw. I'm completely 

14 right there with everybody else. But I also think 

15 we have to understand, organics today is not what 

16 organics was 20 years ago. And I think we will 

17 better serve the organic community if we remember 

18 to keep that in front of us and not try to live 20 

19 years in the past, but live for the future and where 

20 organics potentially could go. And this is a great 

21 material that we could use to try to use as a 

22 catalyst to take us to that next step.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Tracy?

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I would like to 

3 appreciate, say I appreciate the comments from my 

4 colleagues here on the Board. Colehour in 

5 particular, I thought your comments were cogent and 

6 articulate, and I appreciate the perspective that 

7 you have particularly living on Hawaii and 

8 recognizing the history that sort of led to this 

9 situation. This is a struggle. This is a tough 

10 one because we're trying to balance principals 

11 versus livelihoods and this is where it gets always 

12 sticky.

13 I actually am glad to hear Zea 

14 articulate the need to get it on a research 

15 priority, because I think that's probably going to 

16 be the most socially responsible and humane, if you 

17 will, move us out of this problem. And so I will 

18 vote to support relisting this material, but would 

19 like to see us find an equitable way to phase it 

20 out.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion, any 

22 further? Nick?
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. I mean, 

2 streptomycin and tetracycline, we did have 

3 deadlines, we did extend them with an eye on the 

4 research activity. And I'm just saying that I 

5 think this bill is a good candidate for moving in 

6 that way. But that's just my opinion.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Anyone else? 

8 Jennifer?

9 MEMBER TAYLOR: I wonder if the 

10 consumers, folks that are really, you know, 

11 enjoying their organic pineapples, if they knew 

12 that their pineapples were put under an ethylene 

13 gas environment to enhance ripening, how fast would 

14 they buy it, or how fast would they actually want 

15 it, how fast would they want to give it to their 

16 children? So I think that's something that we need 

17 to consider too as we consider other information.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: More discussion? 

19 Okay, I think we're ready to vote.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, ready to 

21 vote? Is there any request for a roll call or do 

22 we just, are we happy with the show of hands? Yes 
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1 it goes, okay. All those in favor of removing 

2 ethylene gas as described from the National List, 

3 please raise your hand. All those opposed to 

4 removing ethylene gas from the National List, 

5 please raise your hand. Abstentions? Recusals? 

6 And I note no absences.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: We have three yes, 

8 nine no, two abstentions, the motion fails.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Next is sodium 

10 silicate.

11 DR. BRINES: Thanks. Sodium silicate 

12 is included at Section 205.601 of the National List 

13 at Paragraph L as floating agents in post-harvest 

14 handling, two sodium silicate for tree fruit and 

15 fiber processing. And one correction for the 

16 record, the citation in the subcommittee vote 

17 motion should read as 205.601(l) rather than 

18 205.601(j). Thank you.

19 MEMBER BECK: So the subcommittee 

20 proposed to de-list sodium silicate as a floating 

21 agent in post-harvest handling for tree fruit and 

22 fiber processing primarily because there was no 
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1 public comment received in favor of this material 

2 during our spring 2015 meeting. Additionally, 

3 float list mechanized systems were noted as an 

4 alternative. However, for our current meeting we 

5 did receive two comments discussing sodium 

6 silicate.

7 One commenter supports relisting for 

8 use as a pear float. The commenter stated that 

9 removal will prevent small business from 

10 converting to organic packing due to the high cost 

11 of equipment to do it without. Additionally, the 

12 OTA mentions that they conducted direct outreach 

13 to suppliers of sodium silicate for pear floating 

14 agents. They state the following.

15 It appears as though the material is 

16 still in use by some smaller conventional pear 

17 packing facilities in the Pacific Northwest. 

18 These facilities have switched to sodium silicate 

19 due to increased regulation on the use of lignin 

20 sulfonate. Removing sodium silicate at this time 

21 would eliminate the possibility of these smaller 

22 facilities with older style packing lines in 
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1 engaging in the organic industry.

2 The Board needs to consider the 

3 potential impact on smaller packing facilities 

4 should both lignin sulfonate and sodium silicate 

5 be removed from the National List for use as a pear 

6 floating agent. This material could still be in 

7 use by the trade and therefore continues to be 

8 considered necessary.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? 

10 Colehour?

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Carmela, in that what 

12 you just read, did it say in the first little clause 

13 conventional operations? Is that right? That's 

14 what I heard you say, and it's hypothetically or 

15 potentially could be used by organic but it 

16 specifically says conventional small packing 

17 facility?

18 MEMBER BECK: Correct.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: We did hear from one 

20 organic pear grower or packer who used it, which 

21 means there probably are more out there. Jean, did 

22 you have your hand up?
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, I'm not clear 

2 why the subcommittee when, it reviewed this, why 

3 they voted unanimously apparently to remove, that 

4 would be their recommendation. It's still not 

5 clear to me. You list compatibility with organic 

6 agriculture, I would appreciate a bit more 

7 specificity. 

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: You want to address 

9 that?

10 MEMBER BECK: I mean, my understanding 

11 was again, there was no public comment in favor, 

12 and so there was an understanding that it was no 

13 longer needed by industry.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Similar to 

15 ethylene. Tom?

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I think we also 

17 received six checklists from farmers that said they 

18 use the material. I said I think we also received 

19 six checklists from farmers saying they use the 

20 material.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Harold?

22 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes, I originally 
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1 voted against, you know, I was in favor of the 

2 subcommittee proposal to remove this from the 

3 National List. Our basis there was that it was no 

4 longer needed, just similar to the sulfonate, that 

5 it wasn't a need. The packers weren't using it 

6 anymore. But evidently there are still some 

7 smaller processors that are still using this 

8 material.

9 They switched from the lignin sulfonate 

10 over to this. So I'm going to change my vote and 

11 I'm going to vote in favor of keeping this one on 

12 the list for the time being.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Jean?

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So crop 

15 subcommittee folks, you've listened to me why not 

16 about lignin sulfonate which I voted against 

17 earlier. This one does not appear to have the same 

18 type of negative impact on the organic system plan 

19 as lignin sulfonate would do in my mind. And is 

20 that what you found, that it was just simply the 

21 fact that you hadn't got enough feedback from 

22 enough growers to determine if it was really 
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1 needed? Did it meet the OFPA criteria?

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes. Personally, 

3 I didn't see any issues with it. It was just a 

4 question of lack of public comment. And I, like 

5 Harold, am going to change my vote to renew it 

6 because I feel like it will put small growers at 

7 a disadvantage to the larger growers. And I feel 

8 like that's something we shouldn't do without more 

9 opportunity for input. And I do also want to point 

10 out that one of its uses is in fiber processing, 

11 and we didn't hear from that community either, but 

12 we may be cutting out a whole use that people just 

13 were not aware of was up for Sunset in fiber 

14 processing. So I'm changing my vote as well as 

15 Harold.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no more 

17 discussion, I believe we're ready for the vote. 

18 All those in favor of removing sodium silicate as 

19 a floatation agent for tree fruit and fiber 

20 processing, please raise your hand. All those 

21 opposed to removing this material from the National 

22 List, please raise your hand. Any abstentions or 
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1 recusals? And I note no absences.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was two yes, 

3 twelve no, the motion fails.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: 5:15 and we're on to 

5 that very juicy subject of EPA list for inerts. 

6 Lisa?

7 DR. BRINES: Thank you. And my 

8 understanding is that the Board will take up both 

9 listings at 205.601 for crop use as well as 205.601 

10 for livestock use at the same time.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay.

12 DR. BRINES: Heads nod for the record. 

13 All right. The current listing at 205.601(m) 

14 reads as follows, as synthetic inert ingredients 

15 as classified by the Environmental Protection 

16 Agency for use with non-synthetic substances or as 

17 synthetic substances listed in this section and 

18 used as an active pesticide ingredient in 

19 accordance with any limitation on the use of such 

20 substances, one EPA list four inerts of minimal 

21 concern. Thank you.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. I guess I'll 
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1 take the lead from crops and present this, and then 

2 whoever is the lead in livestock could supplement 

3 what I say. Well, as you know, it's been some years

4 now since the EPA came to us and said that List 4 

5 was no longer in use and therefore the citation in 

6 the federal rule needed to be changed. And we've 

7 been working on it ever since, or not always me but 

8 the Board has been working on it ever since along 

9 with the department.

10 We have come to a solution that we feel 

11 is achievable from all of the interested government 

12 agencies, as well as the Board members who have 

13 worked on it which is to work with the EPA Safer 

14 Choice program formerly known as Design for 

15 Environment. We need to have a vote on the 

16 relationship before anything further can happen. 

17 With the next steps, as I outlined in the report, 

18 we can't have an MOU with the Safer Choice program 

19 until it's voted on by the NOSB.

20 We can't do the data call in for federal 

21 register notice until it's voted on by the NOSB. 

22 And so we decided to go ahead and try and pose the 
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1 annotation change for this meeting because so many 

2 people complained about the delay which is, it's 

3 been delayed for years now. And while we do have 

4 the option and I would like to hear in discussion 

5 if people want to delay this even further and take 

6 the annotation change back for future work, even 

7 though we will fully discuss it tomorrow.

8 But there is a chance that we may 

9 withdraw it or table it, I mean not tomorrow, 

10 Thursday, we may withdraw it or table it. And I 

11 would like to be informed on people's thinking 

12 towards that decision if it needs so much more work 

13 before going forward.

14 Keeping in mind that we did put it 

15 forward without all the exact procedural details 

16 being worked out because some of those can't be 

17 worked out until the MOU is signed. And secondly, 

18 the time line can't get more specific until the MOU 

19 is signed.

20 But the issue of how much oversight the 

21 NOSB has over the process and how the items that 

22 are reviewed will be referenced on their list 
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1 because we have discussed, you know, having an 

2 asterisk type symbol, or possibly a separate 

3 section of their list, or these type of procedural 

4 details, we decided to go through it forward with 

5 a proposal for an annotation change before this is 

6 fully worked out because that's what the department 

7 needed to have happen in order to get the ball 

8 rolling to do this.

9 So I've been assured by the department 

10 that nothing will happen on this for six months if 

11 we do retract it, except we might do a little more 

12 talking about it. But we won't start the program. 

13 So in the meantime, we do need to renew the EPA list 

14 for inert listing while we figure out exactly how 

15 the new program will be crafted. And that's what 

16 the motion is before us.

17 Just as an aside, I should mention the 

18 NPE is in the last paragraph I included here. I 

19 had ready to go and voted on by the committee a 

20 discussion document concerning the time line and 

21 intention to phase out the NPEs, to go forward at 

22 this meeting.
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1 However, it was not accepted to go 

2 forward by the NOP because the agenda was so full 

3 here, and you can see that we're having to rush 

4 through a number of materials and issues and we felt 

5 we should devote more time to it.

6 But because this is inevitably going to 

7 come to pass, I put it in the main proposal that 

8 it's a good time to start reformulating now because 

9 it is eventually going to come to pass, very likely, 

10 since the Safer Choice program has already told us 

11 that they will not have the NPEs on their list, and 

12 yet we do want these things to -- the companies that 

13 use them to have time to reformulate them.

14 So I guess that's what I have to say for 

15 now. We can talk a lot more about the annotation 

16 on Thursday, but I would like people's initial 

17 thoughts and discussions on this. First Tracy or 

18 whoever livestock wants to add.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, actually your 

20 discussion very much paralleled the discussion 

21 that we had in livestock. Thank you for your work 

22 on developing this proposal and giving us at least 
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1 a springboard to start from. The livestock 

2 committee is in agreement that this is the best way 

3 to address the list for inerts going forward. And 

4 in fact, we were kind of stymied on how to move 

5 forward prior to this proposal because it is such 

6 a big elephant to eat. So we did support and sign 

7 on and vote on the proposal as put forward by the 

8 crops committee.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Discussion? Jean?

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, Tracy, do you 

11 have any feeling as to whether or not we have, 

12 should we wait for Thursday to have the discussion 

13 on the proposed annotation change, or do we have 

14 any, I mean, do we have all the language that we 

15 need that we think for that or should we just wait?

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: You mean wait from 

17 today until Thursday or what?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No, I mean, we're 

19 going to vote on sunset today. But Zea was looking 

20 for some indication as to whether or not we need 

21 to have some preliminary discussions as to whether 

22 we're going to be having enough language to do the 
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1 annotation.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: I mean, I'm 

3 comfortable with moving forward the annotation 

4 change because I have confidence that we, along 

5 with the inerts working group, can work out a 

6 procedure, the procedural aspects which will 

7 include sufficient NOSB oversight and reporting 

8 to the NOSB and include a time line that's realistic 

9 and works for industry members and public interest 

10 stakeholders.

11 Other people do not have confidence in 

12 us to do that, as we've heard from the public. And 

13 so if some of those are sitting here on the Board 

14 and feel like it should be delayed while we work 

15 out some of the finer points, then that's fine. 

16 It's very unlikely to come back as a proposal to 

17 go back to the 2012 recommendation.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I'll only add that 

19 in our discussions, we did recognize that there 

20 were details to be worked out. But, you know, like 

21 Zea said in her discussion, some of the details 

22 literally can't be worked out until you move it 
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1 forward.

2 So without having the proposal in 

3 place, I think we're just delaying the inevitable, 

4 and some of the details are just inevitably going 

5 to have to be worked out as the process moves 

6 forward. And in our discussion, we did have some 

7 concerns about how do we ensure that, but I think 

8 that from my remembrance and from my personal 

9 perspective, I have confidence that we could put 

10 some safeguards in place to make sure that 

11 oversight is sufficient.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Anyone else have 

13 discussion points to raise? Francis?

14 MEMBER THICKE: I do have some concerns 

15 after hearing the comments in the last few days. 

16 But I think we should just move ahead with this 

17 sunset proposal now and wait for this kind of stuff 

18 until later when we have that come up.

19 MEMBER BONDERA: Anyone else? 

20 Colehour?

21 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. I just want to 

22 ask you to clarify because I'm 99 percent sure I 
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1 understand, but I would rather be 100 percent. 

2 There's two different, two separate things to be 

3 considering.

4 One is a sunset vote which is scheduled 

5 for today, and one is an annotation change on this 

6 which has been scheduled for Thursday. They're 

7 separate items and there's been some discussion 

8 about combining it or did we decide today? And I 

9 personally think that we need to keep them very 

10 separate, honestly. And I think how that 

11 annotation change discussion goes, you know, how 

12 fast we get through that I think should be a 

13 different thing to address. Thank you.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. They are 

15 very separate and the votes will be two different 

16 days, but certain people are understandably 

17 uncomfortable renewing the terminology of EPA List 

18 4, and so I just want to make it clear that we're 

19 trying to go forward at the same time that we are.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no more 

21 discussion, I would ask those of you who are in 

22 favor of the motion to remove the EPA List 4 inerts 
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1 of minimal concern from the National List, please 

2 raise your hand. All those opposed to removing the 

3 EPA list for inerts of minimal concern from the 

4 National List, please raise your hand. Any 

5 abstentions or recusals? And no absences. Thank 

6 you.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was two yes, 

8 twelve no. The motion fails.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: The last one on 601 

10 is microcrystalline cheese wax. Lisa?

11 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

12 substance is included at Section 205.601 of the 

13 National List under Paragraph O as production aids, 

14 microcrystalline cheese wax, cast numbers 

15 64742-42-3, 8009-03-08, and 8002-74-2 for use in 

16 log grown mushroom production, must be used without 

17 either ethylene propylene copolymer or synthetic 

18 colors. Thank you.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour?

20 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Like Lisa 

21 said, it's used in log grown mushroom production. 

22 There is a non-GMO soy alternative wax that I can't 
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1 tell you when, or if, or how it will be available, 

2 but I think that that's been some of the discussion 

3 in terms of, you know, maybe we can de-list this 

4 microcrystalline cheese wax because of that.

5 It seems like, to me at least, it's 

6 unclear that the sufficient availability. There 

7 wasn't a lot of public comment. We had a little 

8 bit. There was some, one comment, and I'm not 

9 quoting it, but I remember reading it I think about 

10 the soil one's already available. So I think that 

11 adds to the confusion from my perspective, 

12 especially when hearing mushroom testimony that, 

13 you know, there isn't another, we need to stick with 

14 this possibility. 

15 Public comment was mostly in support of 

16 relisting. At the subcommittee level the vote was 

17 divided with abstentions and yeses and nos and 

18 absences, almost fleshing out the number of people 

19 when we took that vote. So it's not a clear, simple 

20 topic to really anybody, but I think frankly that's 

21 because not many of us are dealing with mushrooms, 

22 honestly. But that's all I needed to say. Thank 
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1 you.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'll call on myself 

3 first. One public comment I clearly heard today 

4 was that the soy wax contains, has been determined 

5 by a certifier to be synthetic, and that clearly 

6 means that it would need to be petitioned. And so 

7 we couldn't just vote this off and have it be used. 

8 It would have to be petitioned and added first. 

9 Other discussion?

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: There being no 

11 discussion, I would ask you, for those members who 

12 would like to remove microcrystalline cheese wax 

13 from the National List, please raise your hand. 

14 For those who would like the microcrystalline 

15 cheese wax to remain on the National List, please 

16 raise your hand. Any abstentions or recusals? No 

17 absences noted.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was one 

19 yes, thirteen no. The motion fails.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The next group of 

21 materials we're going to look at, Zea, the 205.602 

22 materials. I would like to ask perhaps that the 
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1 chair takes these as a group and acts as the lead 

2 person. Would that be possible, or do you want to 

3 take every single one of them separately?

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: What did you say? 

5 That the lead people, to just do them all at once?

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Do them all at once, 

7 but --

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: But have one person 

9 lead them all?

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: -- they have 

11 different lead people.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So how would you 

14 like to do that as a chair?

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, I'm willing 

16 to propose doing them all at once, have Lisa read 

17 them all at once, and then ask the will of the Board 

18 if they want to pull one off separately and if not, 

19 do them all at once. How does that sound? Lisa, 

20 205.602.

21 DR. BRINES: All right. I will read 

22 all seven substances that are under consideration 
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1 for Sunset 2017 under Section 205.602, 

2 non-synthetic substances prohibited for use in 

3 organic crop production. We have A, ash from 

4 manure burning, B arsenic, D lead salts, E 

5 potassium chloride unless derived from a mine 

6 source and applied in a manner that minimizes 

7 chloride accumulation in the soil, F sodium 

8 fluoaluminate mined, H strychnine, and finally I 

9 tobacco dust, nicotine sulfate. Thank you.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. At the 

11 outset of this I just want to make it very clear 

12 to everybody that if you vote yes on removing these, 

13 then they become allowed. If you want to keep them 

14 prohibited, which they're on the prohibited list, 

15 you vote no. Okay? It's a little backwards.

16 Next I will ask if anyone wants to 

17 single out any one of these to be dealt with 

18 separately. Okay, none. Hearing that, then I'll 

19 ask if anyone has any discussion points on any of 

20 the seven items that are proposed on 205.602. 

21 Colehour, you want to say something? Yes.

22 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, sorry. Thank 
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1 you for waiting. I apologize. One of those is one 

2 that I was lead on, and I just want to comment about 

3 it very briefly. I don't think we need to go 

4 anywhere with it but it's ash from manure burning. 

5 And the reason I want to comment on it is because 

6 we are also considering a petition to, which we're 

7 not going to consider at this meeting, to add ash 

8 from manure burning to the list.

9 And I just wanted to make people aware 

10 that that is a topic that's going to be coming up. 

11 That is a material that is going to be coming up 

12 again for consideration in the future. That's my 

13 only comment. Thank you.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Any discussion on 

15 any of the other materials in this group?

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay, it looks like 

17 we are ready for the final vote of the day, and that 

18 is to vote on a list of the 205.602 prohibited 

19 non-synthetic substances, ash from manure burning, 

20 arsenic, lead salts, potassium chloride, sodium 

21 fluoaluminate, strychnine, tobacco dust.

22 If you would like, let's see, if you 
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1 want to remove these prohibited substances from the 

2 National List, please raise your hand. If you want 

3 to leave these materials on the National List as 

4 prohibited substances, please raise your hand. 

5 Are there any abstentions or recusals? And no 

6 absences noted. Thank you.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

8 yes, fourteen no, the motion fails.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: This concludes the 

10 crop subcommittee Sunset 2017 portion of the 

11 agenda.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well done, 

13 everybody. Thank you ever so much. You did a 

14 terrific job. We will meet here again tomorrow 

15 morning at 8:30 promptly and start then. You're

16 all cordially invited together with your wives, 

17 children, and associated significant others and 

18 friends to come to a jolly good party which will 

19 start shortly after 6 o'clock in the atrium here 

20 in the resort.

21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled meeting 

22 went off the record at 5:34 p.m.)
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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 
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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

FALL 2015 MEETING

+ + + + +

WEDNESDAY

OCTOBER 28, 2015

+ + + + +

The Board met in the Pinnacle Room of the 

Stoweflake Conference Center, Stowe, Vermont, at 

8:30 a.m., Jean Richardson, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT

JEAN RICHARDSON, Chair

TRACY FAVRE, Vice Chair

HAROLD AUSTIN, Secretary (via Skype)

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR BONDERA

TOM CHAPMAN

LISA DE LIMA

NICK MARAVELL

ZEA SONNABEND

ROBERT "MAC" STONE

ASHLEY SWAFFAR

JENNIFER TAYLOR

FRANCIS THICKE

C. REUBEN WALKER
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ALSO PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board Specialist, 

National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, National List Manager, National 

Organic Program

EMILY BROWN ROSEN, Agricultural Marketing 

Specialist, National Organic Program

PAUL LEWIS, Director, Standards Division, 

National Organic Program, USDA

SAM JONES, AMS Public Affairs Specialist

MILES MEVOY, Designated Federal Officer, 

Deputy Administrator, National Organic 

Program
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CONTENTS

Handling Subcommittee

'205.605(a) Nonsynthetics allowed

Acid, Alginic ................................. 7 

Acid, Citric .................................. 8 

Acid, Lactic .................................. 8 

Attapulgite .................................. 12

Bentonite .................................... 14

Calcium carbonate ............................ 16

Calcium chloride ............................. 17

Dairy cultures ............................... 19

Diatomaceous earth ......................... 21

Enzymes ...................................... 22

Flavors ...................................... 26

Kaolin ....................................... 27

Magnesium sulfate ............................ 28

Nitrogen ..................................... 29

Oxygen ....................................... 30

Perlite ...................................... 36

Potassium chloride ........................... 37

Potassium iodide ............................. 38

Sodium bicarbonate ........................... 40

Sodium carbonate ............................. 42

Waxes: Carnauba .............................. 43

Waxes: Wood rosin ............................ 51

Yeast ........................................ 54
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'205.605(b) Synthetics allowed

Acidified sodium chlorite .................... 57

Alginates .................................... 59

Ammonium bicarbonate ......................... 65

Ammonium carbonate ........................... 67

Ascorbic acid ................................ 69

Calcium citrate .............................. 71

Calcium hydroxide ............................ 73

Calcium phosphates: monobasic, dibasic,

tribasic................................ 74

Carbon dioxide ............................... 91

Chlorine Materials (Calcium hypochlorite,

Chlorine dioxide, Sodium hypochlorite) ....... 93

Ethylene .................................... 108

Ferrous sulfate ............................. 109

Glycerides: mono and di ..................... 116

Glycerin .................................... 121

Hydrogen peroxide ........................... 123

Magnesium carbonate ......................... 124

Magnesium chloride .......................... 126

Magnesium stearate .......................... 128

Nutrient vitamins and minerals .............. 132

Ozone ....................................... 158

Phosphoric acid ............................. 160

Potassium acid tartrate ..................... 164

Potassium carbonate ......................... 167

Potassium citrate ........................... 168

Potassium phosphate ......................... 170

Sodium citrate .............................. 174

Sodium hydroxide ............................ 176

Sodium phosphates ........................... 178

Sulfur dioxide .............................. 189

Tocopherols ................................. 190

Xanthan gum ................................. 196
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'205.606 (PDF) Nonorganically produced

agricultural products allowed as ingredients in

or on processed products labeled as Aorganic.@ 

Casings ..................................... 202

Celery powder ............................... 211

Chia (Salvia hispanica L.) .................. 225

Colors: Various ............................. 226

Dillweed oil ................................ 271

Fish oil .................................... 272

Fructooligosaccharides ...................... 294

Galangal, frozen ............................ 300

Gelatin ..................................... 301

Gums: Arabic, Carob bean, Guar,

Locust bean............................ 307

Inulin-oligofructose enriched ............... 309

Kelp ........................................ 321

Konjac flour ................................ 322

Lecithin - de-oiled ......................... 330

Lemongrass-frozen ........................... 331

Orange pulp, dried .......................... 335

Orange Shellac - unbleached ................. 338

Pectin (non-amidated forms only) ............ 340

Peppers (Chipotle chile) .................... 340

Seaweed, Pacific kombu ...................... 341

Starches, Cornstarch (native),

Sweet potato........................... 343

Turkish bay leaves .......................... 346

Wakame seaweed (Undaria pinnatifida) ........ 348

Whey protein concentrate .................... 350

Adjourn
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 8:33 a.m.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. It's just a 

4 couple of minutes after 8:30, and we'd like to get 

5 this exciting day started. This is Tom's day 

6 today. He's been looking forward to this for 

7 weeks, haven't you, Tom? So just remember to keep 

8 your voice close to the microphone -- you have a 

9 sweet voice, not like mine -- so that people can 

10 follow along. And we're going to deal with all of 

11 the sunset handling materials today. We'll take 

12 a break after a couple of hours of work. All right. 

13 Tom? 

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you, Madam 

15 Chair. I hope I can run this meeting as 

16 efficiently and effectively as you have. I'm told 

17 if I get done by 3 p.m. we get free seeds from High 

18 Mowing, and if we get done by 4 p.m. happy hour is 

19 on Jean. Sorry, Harold. I think that's 1 p.m. 

20 your time, but it's happy hour somewhere. 

21 So we have over a hundred materials to 

22 vote on the sunset. The Handling Committee has 
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1 done a herculean job at reviewing and analyzing 

2 these materials that are 106 pages of proposals. 

3 This speaks to the NOSB members' dedication to the 

4 organic community and the review process set forth 

5 by OFPA. It was an unfair task, but it was 

6 answered. And I do implore the program to work 

7 with the NOSB to better split up materials in future 

8 years.

9 Despite all this work, we have asked 

10 lead reviewers to keep their reviews brief and 

11 concise. If material garners greater discussion 

12 than anticipated, I may call upon the lead reviewer 

13 to provide a more complete synopsis. I will start 

14 at 205.605(a) and proceed to 605(b) and conclude 

15 with 606. Any questions from the Board at this 

16 time? Seeing none, we'll get started. Dr. 

17 Brines, will you start with alginic acid? 

18 DR. BRINES: Yes, thank you. The 

19 following material is listed at Section 205.605 of 

20 the National List, nonagricultural, non-organic 

21 substances allowed as ingredients in or on 

22 processed products labeled as organic or made with 
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1 organic-specified ingredients or food groups under 

2 (a), non-synthetics allowed. I'll read the full 

3 listing, but the first proposal is just for alginic 

4 acid. The full listing reads as acids, alginic, 

5 citric, produced by microbial fermentation of 

6 carbohydrate substances, and lactic. 

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Tracy? 

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thanks, Tom. Good

9 morning, everybody. Alginic acid is derived from 

10 harvested wild seaweeds. Public comment was mixed 

11 about alginic acid. Those in favor of its 

12 re-listing note its long history of use with no ill 

13 effects on either human digestion or on the 

14 ecosystem due to sustainable harvesting, and 

15 assert that the properties imparted by alginic acid 

16 are central for some processed food formulations. 

17 Those opposed expressed concerns 

18 regarding the concentration of heavy metals in the 

19 wild harvested seaweed and the fact that alginic 

20 acid is used primarily to enhance texture in foods 

21 and is, therefore, not compatible with OFPA 

22 criteria. We did come to the conclusion in the 
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1 Handling Subcommittee, after looking at the draft 

2 classification of materials, that we are 

3 recommending an additional proposal for alginic 

4 acid to reclassify it to 205.605(d). Thank you. 

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you, Tracy. 

6 Any discussion from the Board at this time? Jean? 

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tracy, yesterday we 

8 had discussions on the aspects of alginic acid, for 

9 example, that deal with ground seaweed. Did you 

10 get much comment relative to whether or not we 

11 should be having concerns about the seaweed?

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: You mean in regards 

13 to over-harvesting? 

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. 

15 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Yes. We did, 

16 actually, have comments, both in regards to 

17 over-harvesting and the possible ecosystem 

18 degradation that were raised as issues of concern. 

19 Additionally, as we were discussing yesterday, 

20 several of us have expressed a need to look at some 

21 of the sea products in a more systems-based 

22 fashion. And while we'll have our vote on sunset 
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1 today, we'll probably have continued discussions 

2 about sea products going forward. 

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So did this, in any 

4 way, impact your -- in subcommittee, it was voted 

5 on by everybody, one was absent, to retain it on 

6 the list. Did your new information that you got 

7 in since the last period suggest that you might 

8 change your position on this? 

9 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Me personally? 

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Your analysis.

11 MEMBER SWAFFAR: No, I don't think so 

12 at this time. I mean, it's used in a wide range 

13 of products and, again, before we make some 

14 decisions that are sort of piecemeal in regards to 

15 the approach for this, I'm inclined to vote it 

16 through and then evaluate kind of a global position 

17 on this as we move forward. 

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

19 discussion? 

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seeing no further 

21 discussion, do you want to do this or do you want 

22 me to do it? 
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Seeing no further 

2 discussion, we'll move to a vote. We'll be using 

3 the hand vote method again. All those in favor of 

4 the motion to remove alginic acid vote aye. All 

5 those opposed, vote nay. All those abstaining? 

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Vote is 2 

7 yes, 11 no, 1 abstention. The motion fails. 

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: For the record, I'm 

9 reminded to note that Harold is present. 

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next item for review 

11 and vote is the motion to remove acids, citric and 

12 lactic. Dr. Brines? 

13 DR. BRINES: Thank you. These 

14 materials are also listed under Section 205.605(a) 

15 as acids, alginic, citric, produced by microbial 

16 fermentation of carbohydrate substances and 

17 lactic. Thank you. 

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley? 

19 MEMBER SWAFFAR: So combining the 

20 citric and lactic acid, they are very widely-used 

21 in food processing for various actions, including 

22 pH control. And there was lots of public comment 
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1 in the spring and fall meeting supporting the 

2 re-listing, but there was one concern over the 

3 acids and their listing, thinking that they should 

4 be listed as synthetic. I looked at that and 

5 didn't feel that was a factor. And based on the 

6 majority of public comment, the subcommittee 

7 believes this material should be re-listed. 

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you, Ashley. 

9 Any further discussion? Seeing none, we'll move 

10 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 

11 remove acids, citric and lactic, say aye or raise 

12 your hand. All those opposed? Abstentions? 

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: There is 2 yes, 12 

14 no. The motion fails. 

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

16 attapulgite. Dr. Brines? 

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This material 

18 is listed at Section 205.605(a) of the National 

19 List as attapulgite as a processing aid in the 

20 handling of plant and animal oils. Thank you. 

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: This is one of 
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1 several filter aids that we've looked at over the 

2 last few months. We've not received very much 

3 comment on attapulgites since the last meeting. 

4 One of the comments says that this material does 

5 not seem to be used and it could, in fact, be allowed 

6 to sunset. Maybe it's not necessary. Another 

7 group could not find anyone that was specifically 

8 using it that replied to their survey. 

9 However, many of the limited number of 

10 comments we received note that there was no 

11 negative reason to remove it from the list. In 

12 subcommittee, we had voted to leave it on the list. 

13 I would still suggest that there's no real reason 

14 to take it off the list with a negative reason that 

15 it may be being used out there and we simply have 

16 not identified that person, or that organization, 

17 or it may be being used in combination with some 

18 of the other filter aids, which are sometimes used 

19 together since attapulgite, bentonite, and kaolin 

20 are very similar in the manner in which they have 

21 been used. 

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any discussion on 
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1 this item? 

2 MEMBER STONE: Do we know if it has 

3 unique properties different than bentonite and 

4 kaolin, necessarily? 

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No, it does not 

6 appear to have any unique qualities that are 

7 different from some of the other ones. It was 

8 originally petitioned to be used in organic plant 

9 and vegetable oil filtration. 

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

11 discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. 

12 All those in favor of the motion to remove 

13 attapulgite say aye. Raise your hands. All those 

14 opposed? All those abstaining? 

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was 3 yes, 11 

16 no. The motion fails. 

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

18 bentonite. Dr. Brines? 

19 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

20 substance is listed at Section 205.605(a) as 

21 bentonite. Thanks. 

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Bentonite is one of 

2 those filter aids. This one is used to clarify 

3 wine, so it kind of seems necessary. It has 

4 received, we didn't receive a lot of comment on it, 

5 but we do know that it is used and that it appears 

6 necessary in the wine filtration industry. 

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

8 discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. 

9 All those in favor of the motion to remove bentonite 

10 raise your hand. All those opposed? Abstaining? 

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Vote is zero yes, 14 

12 no. The motion fails. 

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next is diatomaceous 

14 earth. Dr. Brines? 

15 DR. BRINES: Do we want to follow the 

16 order? Then we'll go to calcium carbonate next, 

17 Tom? 

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes.

19 DR. BRINES: Okay. Thank you. The 

20 next substance is listed at Section 205.605(a) of 

21 the National List and is listed as calcium 

22 carbonate. Thanks. 
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calcium carbonate. 

3 Again, we didn't get an enormous amount of public 

4 comment coming in since the last meeting. This is 

5 the dough conditioner dietary supplement. It is 

6 quite broadly used. It is supported by industry 

7 and by several of the certifiers, one of which 

8 indicates, for example, that it's a common carrier 

9 in feed additive. I see no reason to do anything 

10 different than the vote we had in subcommittee, 

11 which was a unanimous vote to leave it on the list. 

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

13 discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. 

14 All those in favor of the motion to remove calcium 

15 carbonate vote aye. All those opposed? 

16 Abstaining? 

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That is zero yes, 14 

18 no. The motion fails. 

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next is calcium 

20 chloride. 

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

22 substance is listed at Section 205.605(a) of the 
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1 National List as calcium chloride. Thanks. 

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley? 

3 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Okay. Calcium 

4 chloride can be obtained from extraction of 

5 non-synthetic brines. Public comment was fairly 

6 limited with some in favor of re-listing noted it 

7 can be used as a firming agent in beans and brine 

8 vegetables and aids in gelling for some pectins. 

9 One commenter cited concerns regarding the 

10 potential for contaminates in the ingredients, and 

11 suggested sending the proposal back for 

12 subcommittee. It was a unanimous vote to retain 

13 it on the list. 

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

15 discussion? 

16 MEMBER THICKE: You mentioned that it 

17 can be extracted as a non-synthetic. Do you know 

18 if it would be adequate or what would happen if it 

19 were taken off the list? 

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Seventy-five 

21 percent of the calcium chloride is manufactured 

22 through a chemical process. 
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1 MEMBER THICKE: But I'm talking about, 

2 I'm talking about organic, what percent is organic 

3 of the total demand of calcium chloride? 

4 Twenty-five percent? Probably not, huh? 

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Well, 25 percent of 

6 the supply is potentially from some other process, 

7 but we don't know.

8 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. 

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any other question?

10 MEMBER BONDERA: I'm just curious if 

11 you could expand at all, Tracy, regarding the 

12 comment on impurities that you said that came in, 

13 if you all discussed that, and how that played out 

14 in terms of affecting the vote? Thank you. 

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: We actually did not 

16 discuss that in subcommittee. It was mentioned in 

17 one of the public comments, and there was one table 

18 that included some details, but that was the extent 

19 of the information. 

20 MEMBER THICKE: Emily just clarified 

21 for me it's actually not on as a non-synthetic.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 
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1 discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote on 

2 this item. All those in favor of the motion to 

3 remove calcium chloride from the National List 

4 raise your hand as an aye. All those opposed? 

5 Abstaining? 

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was zero yes, 

7 12 no, 2 abstentions. The motion fails. 

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

9 dairy cultures. 

10 DR. BRINES: This substance is listed 

11 at Section 205.605(a) of the National List as dairy 

12 cultures. Thanks. 

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: All right. Dairy 

14 cultures widely used in the processing of dairy 

15 products. While the NOSB Handling Subcommittee 

16 notes that separate listings for dairy cultures is 

17 redundant with the microorganisms listing, 

18 subcommittee found no issue with continued 

19 listing. The substance satisfied OFPA criteria. 

20 There was wide support in this round of public 

21 comment for this listing. Any further discussion? 

22 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. I'm sorry to 
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1 ask you, I don't know if you need to repeat that 

2 but clarify it was discussed at the subcommittee 

3 level that this is a redundant listing and 

4 unnecessary, but we don't want to de-list it, just 

5 maintain status quo, or I don't understand the 

6 logic behind what you said. 

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. So dairy 

8 cultures is subsumed under the microorganisms 

9 listing. At this time, we felt there was no harm 

10 to continuing its separate listing on the list, as 

11 well. This is true of some other substances that 

12 appear on the list. Seeing no further discussion, 

13 we'll move to a vote on dairy cultures. All those 

14 in favor of the motion to remove dairy cultures from 

15 the National List raise your hand. All those 

16 opposed? All those abstaining?

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

18 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Dr. Brines, 

20 diatomaceous earth? 

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

22 substance is listed at Section 205.605(a) of the 
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1 National List as diatomaceous earth, food 

2 filtering aid only. Thanks. 

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Diatomaceous earth 

5 is widely used throughout the organic industry as 

6 a food filtering aid, for example in syrups, 

7 including, of course, maple syrup. And there is 

8 no objection noted in the public comments that came 

9 in to remove it from the list. 

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

11 discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. 

12 All those in favor of the motion to remove 

13 diatomaceous earth raise your hand. All those 

14 opposed? All those abstaining? 

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Vote is zero yes, 14 

16 no. The motion fails. 

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Dr. Brines, enzymes? 

18 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

19 substance is included at Section 205.605(a) of the 

20 National List as enzymes, must be derived from 

21 edible non-toxic plants, non-pathogenic fungi, or 

22 non-pathogenic bacteria. Thanks. 
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Lisa? 

2 MEMBER DE LIMA: Enzymes are used as a 

3 processing aid used to carry out 

4 naturally-occurring biological processes. Over 

5 both the comment periods, there was overwhelming 

6 support to retain enzymes on the list both by 

7 organizations and industry. There was one 

8 organization that questioned whether enzymes 

9 needed to be reclassified and wanted to see an 

10 annotation to define those that had not undergone 

11 synthetic chemical change. They also commented 

12 that a review of ancillary substances should 

13 include all substances, including those already on 

14 the National List. In subcommittee, we voted 

15 unanimously to retain. 

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

17 discussion? 

18 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you, Lisa. 

19 Based on that input you got from the public, is the 

20 subcommittee considering those reflections in 

21 terms of further review, as you described? 

22 MEMBER DE LIMA: We looked at the 
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1 classification in using the draft guidance. We 

2 didn't believe it did. And as far as the 

3 ancillaries, I think that's a question still up 

4 because we haven't figured out what direction we're 

5 going to be going on. I think we'll have more 

6 information once we get to the ancillary proposals 

7 tomorrow. 

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

9 discussion? Hearing none, we'll move to a vote. 

10 All those in favor of the motion to remove enzymes 

11 from the National List raise your hand. All those 

12 opposed? Abstentions? 

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Vote was 2 yes, 12 

14 no. The motion fails. 

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Could I ask, for the 

16 record, the reasons for Jennifer and Colehour 

17 voting to remove, so that I can have some 

18 clarification? 

19 MEMBER TAYLOR: I think that it should 

20 be taken back to the committee and re-evaluated 

21 individually and not grouped together, and that 

22 wasn't an option that the committee wanted to 
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1 consider. 

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jennifer, just FYI, 

3 the program is directed as we're not allowed to 

4 bring sunset materials back to committee. So we 

5 have to vote on them here. However, we can bring 

6 it up as an issue in committee with the next meeting 

7 then. 

8 MEMBER BONDERA: In response to your 

9 question, Jean, I think that it, from my 

10 perspective, comes down to due diligence and 

11 whether or not we, as a committee, the NOSB, are 

12 doing our full job of fully reviewing what we're 

13 considering. And when public comment is coming in 

14 that there could have been chemical change on 

15 specific sub-items that might make something 

16 synthetic, for example, and when I ask about it, 

17 it's not been something that the subcommittee has 

18 been able to consider or look at or review, I feel 

19 like, even though the NOP is telling us we can't

20 use certain processes to make decisions like Tracy 

21 was just explaining to Jennifer, I think that my 

22 vote is to point out the fact that I do not feel 
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1 comfortable voting for something to be re-listed 

2 on what Tom introduced this as an extensive list 

3 that's pretty cumbersome, honestly, with items on 

4 it that aren't even clear, you know, if we have all 

5 the information we need. And that's the reason for 

6 my vote, the way it was.

7 I do want to comment that I don't know 

8 that we're going to have time today to go around 

9 the entire table for everybody's vote, aye or nay, 

10 on every single item, which I'm happy to do. But, 

11 you know, just because I'm going to vote out of sync 

12 with the rest, this could take a long time if we're 

13 going to explain each vote. 

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Next on 

15 the list, Dr. Brines, is flavors. 

16 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

17 substance is included at Section 205.605(a) of the 

18 National List as flavors, non-synthetic sources 

19 only and must not be produced using synthetic 

20 solvents and carrier systems or any artificial 

21 preservative. Thanks. 

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. These 
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1 substances are used to recreate flavors in 

2 products. Review of the original 

3 recommendations, historical documents, public 

4 comments on this substance revealed that the 

5 substance met OFPA criteria. No new points were 

6 raised this round of public comment, and there was 

7 wide support for the renewal, coupled with the 

8 proposed annotation recommended by the 

9 subcommittee. The proposed annotation is on the 

10 agenda for Thursday. The Handling Subcommittee 

11 recommends the renewal of flavors on the National 

12 List.

13 Any further discussion? Seeing none, 

14 we'll move to a vote. All those in favor of the 

15 motion to remove flavors from the National List 

16 raise your hand. All those opposed? 

17 Abstentions? 

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is 1 yes, 

19 12 no, 1 abstention. The motion fails. 

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

21 kaolin. Dr. Brines? 

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This listing 
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1 is included at Section 205.605(a) of the National 

2 List as kaolin. Thanks. 

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Kaolin is another 

5 one of those filter aids, a clay-based filter aid, 

6 which does not necessarily appear to be used 

7 widely, but it is used and is supported by industry. 

8 And we don't have negative reasons for why it should 

9 not be on the National List. The vote in 

10 subcommittee was six to keep it on the list and one 

11 person was absent. I would suggest that we still 

12 leave it on the list. 

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

14 discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. 

15 All those in favor of the motion to remove kaolin 

16 from the National List raise your hand. All those 

17 opposed? Abstentions? 

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

19 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the National 

21 List is magnesium sulfite. Dr. Brines? 

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 
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1 substance is included at Section 205.605(a) of the 

2 National List as magnesium sulfate, non-synthetic 

3 sources only. Thanks. 

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Magnesium sulfate, 

5 we did not get a great deal of comment on this 

6 material. It is a non-synthetic source material 

7 which is used both as a dietary supplement and also 

8 to enhance flavor production in tofu. Tofu 

9 producers believe that it is necessary to their 

10 industry. The vote in subcommittee was unanimous 

11 to leave this material on the list. 

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

13 discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. 

14 All those in favor of the motion to remove magnesium 

15 sulfate from the National List raise your hand. 

16 All those opposed? Abstentions? 

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was 2 yes, 

18 12 no. The motion fails. 

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

20 nitrogen. Dr. Brines? 

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

22 substance is included at Section 205.605(a) of the 
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1 National List and reads as nitrogen, oil-free 

2 grades. Thanks. 

3 MEMBER DE LIMA: Nitrogen is used to 

4 reduce oxidation and it's used in the 

5 flash-freezing of foods. Over both the comment 

6 periods, all comments were in favor of re-listing 

7 and it was a unanimous vote in subcommittee. 

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

9 discussion? Seeing none, we'll proceed to a vote. 

10 All those in favor of the motion to remove nitrogen 

11 from the National List say aye, raise your hand. 

12 All those opposed? Abstentions? 

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

14 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next is oxygen. Dr. 

16 Brines? 

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This listing 

18 is at Section 205.605(a) of the National List and 

19 reads as oxygen, oil-free grades. Thanks. 

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Lisa? 

21 MEMBER DE LIMA: Oxygen can be used for 

22 modified atmosphere packaging. We had very little 
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1 public comment over both periods. The second 

2 comment period we had support from one producer, 

3 and one organization suggested we de-list it due 

4 to lack of support. But we didn't find anything 

5 in the negative that it would be contrary to OFPA, 

6 and so it was passed unanimously in subcommittee. 

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

8 discussion on this item? I'll note that it's also 

9 used in the brewing industry for yeast health. 

10 MEMBER BONDERA: I'm sorry. It's used 

11 in the brewing industry what? 

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: For yeast health. 

13 Colehour? 

14 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, I think that's a 

15 slightly interesting comment, Tom. But I'm also 

16 interested in what I referred to before, which is 

17 if there is no public input, even, like, in some 

18 cases where even one comment seems to be 

19 influencing people to vote to maintain something 

20 on the list. But if there is or isn't, I just 

21 wonder how that is affecting the decision of the 

22 subcommittee to maintain because what I heard from 
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1 Lisa was, if I got it right, that there had been 

2 not really input to maintain it on the list, but 

3 we should just because it's there. 

4 MEMBER DE LIMA: There was one 

5 manufacturer that wrote in in the second comment 

6 period in support, and there was one comment from 

7 an organization that said because there was no 

8 support, because that was based on the first public 

9 comment period versus the second public comment 

10 period, which did have one manufacturer in support. 

11 And like I said, there were no negative points 

12 brought up by anybody indicating it was --

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Colehour, can you 

14 help me understand why you'd be opposed to oxygen 

15 in organic systems? 

16 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, I'm happy to. 

17 I'm not opposed to oxygen in organic systems. What 

18 I was trying to raise or ask, and I think, in this 

19 particular case, like Lisa just elaborated, it's 

20 not specifically the case, but if there is no use 

21 for something and there is no shown, or 

22 demonstrated, or commented on need, that's where 
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1 oftentimes there's no reason not to de-list 

2 something. 

3 Again, in this particular case, it 

4 doesn't apply, but I was again hearing the 

5 suggestion that why not leave it on the list just 

6 because? And that attitude and approach concerned 

7 me in terms of the list being ever-expanding 

8 whether or not -- in this particular case, I don't 

9 think it applied. So it was more a general 

10 comment, but I think I was trying to raise the 

11 yellow flag of, you know, why would we maintain 

12 things on the list if there's no use? 

13 MEMBER DE LIMA: I mean, I would still 

14 say that for something like oxygen, which is so 

15 benign, that, with 198 materials sunsetting, 

16 people probably aren't thinking to comment on the 

17 really non-controversial materials and that, if we 

18 did vote it off, I assume we would hear from 

19 manufacturers that are using it for packaging. 

20 That would be the danger I see in voting it off. 

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy? 

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I just would like to 
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1 suggest that we ought to be very cautious of 

2 demonstrating hubris and assuming that everybody 

3 is watching with bated breath every move that we're 

4 doing on this board and would take the time and 

5 effort to write in. I think the example of 

6 ethylene is a real good example of that where there 

7 are people that are busy doing their jobs and may 

8 or may not comment on it. 

9 If we had a controversial material that 

10 had a lot of negative consequences that we didn't 

11 receive any feedback on, I might be inclined to 

12 remove it. But to Lisa's comment, for something 

13 benign, I don't think we should ever make the 

14 assumption, just because we got no comments, that 

15 it's not used. I think there's probably lots of 

16 producers and manufacturers and growers out there 

17 that use materials all the time that are not 

18 completely plugged into this process and this 

19 community at this level. 

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Colehour, I have a 

21 follow-up question on a statement that you made. 

22 You noted that it's an ever-expanding list. Can 
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1 you provide me some details to that statement? Has 

2 it increased over what period of time, or has it 

3 decreased in size? 

4 MEMBER BONDERA: No, I was actually 

5 simply referring to the more general comments that 

6 there's so many items on the list and it takes so 

7 much time to deal with them. And whether or not 

8 the list is ever-expanding, I don't feel like I need 

9 to retract that comment, but I feel like, you know, 

10 I'm not going to be able to cite data showing a 

11 progression over a history. And depending on what 

12 history you want to look at, I'm positive it has 

13 increased. 

14 So I think, depending on how you look 

15 at the data, you're going to see that it has 

16 increased, no matter how you look at it. But I'm 

17 not going to sit here and try to cite numbers 

18 because that wasn't my point. My point was we 

19 shouldn't be spending our time on things that don't 

20 need time. That was my point. 

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Seeing no 

22 further discussion, we'll move to a vote on this 
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1 item. All those in favor of the motion to remove 

2 oxygen from the National List raise your hand. All 

3 those opposed? Abstentions? 

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

5 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

7 potassium chloride. Perlite. Dr. Brines? 

8 DR. BRINES: Yes. Next, we'll take up 

9 perlite, which is listed at Section 205.605(a) of 

10 the National List. And the listing reads as 

11 perlite, for use only as a filter aid in food 

12 processing. Thank you. 

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Filter aid. Is 

15 only used in food processing as another one of those 

16 filter aids. It is made from amorphous volcanic 

17 glass, which I always find quite interesting. We 

18 received public comment again that it is used in 

19 beer filtration. So, obviously, it's pretty 

20 important for different places. There was no 

21 public comment opposed to the re-listing, and it 

22 was voted six to keep it on the list in 
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1 subcommittee. One person was absent. I still 

2 recommend that we leave it on the list. 

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

4 discussion on this item? Seeing none, we'll move 

5 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 

6 remove perlite from the National List raise your 

7 hand. Those opposed? Abstentions? 

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

9 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next is potassium 

11 chloride. Dr. Brines? 

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

13 substance is included at Section 205.605(a) of the 

14 National List as potassium chloride. Thanks. 

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy? 

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes. Potassium 

17 chloride is a commonly-occurring natural mineral, 

18 generally recognized as GRAS. It's used as a 

19 flavor enhancer, flavoring agent, nutrient 

20 supplement, pH control, and stabilizer thickener. 

21 Very little public comment, but was generally in 

22 favor of continued listing of potassium chloride. 
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1 One group did urge the NOSB to restrict 

2 supplemental vitamins and minerals to only those 

3 required by law. The vote was unanimous to retain 

4 it on the list. 

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Further discussion? 

6 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. All those in 

7 favor of the motion to remove potassium chloride 

8 from the National List raise your hand. All those 

9 opposed? Abstentions? 

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

11 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

13 potassium iodide. Dr. Brines? 

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

15 substance is included at Section 205.605(a) of the 

16 National List and reads as potassium iodide. 

17 Thanks. 

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Potassium iodine, 

19 commonly used as synthetic forms of iodine in trace 

20 mineral supplements. Public comment was 

21 generally in support of the material. One group 

22 did urge the NOSB to restrict supplemental vitamins 
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1 and minerals to those required by law. Another 

2 group suggested an annotation as a sanitizing agent 

3 and as a source of iodine when required by law. The 

4 vote was unanimous to retain it on the list. 

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

6 discussion? Colehour? 

7 MEMBER BONDERA: So is the 

8 subcommittee intending to consider that suggestion 

9 from the public in terms of -- I'm not going to quote 

10 what you said. Sorry. But, yes, an annotation 

11 that limits the ones that are required, to the ones 

12 that are required by law? I'm just curious what 

13 the subcommittee's thinking is from that comment. 

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Actually, in my 

15 case, I didn't review the public comments until 

16 after our last subcommittee meeting, so we haven't 

17 had a chance to discuss this with the subcommittee. 

18 Certainly, there would be nothing that would 

19 prevent us from bringing it up at subcommittee if 

20 the members so feel that we need to look at that. 

21 But at this time, there hasn't been any discussion 

22 in regards to it. 
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So might I suggest, 

3 Tracy, that you sort of put a placeholder on that 

4 so that we could, or to the Chair, Tom, that you 

5 put as a placeholder on the potassium iodide so at 

6 the next meeting of the Handling Subcommittee, we 

7 could review that to determine if we need to proceed 

8 with any form of annotation? 

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, I will. Thank 

10 you. 

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Noted. Any further 

12 discussion on this item? Seeing none, we'll move 

13 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 

14 remove potassium iodide from the National List 

15 raise your hand. All those opposed? 

16 Abstentions?

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

18 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Next on 

20 the list is sodium bicarbonate. Dr. Brines? 

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

22 substance is included at Section 205.605(a) of the 
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1 National List as sodium bicarbonate. Thanks. 

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Harold? 

3 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thanks, Tom. Sodium 

4 bicarbonate is used as a leavening agent. It is 

5 baking soda. It's also used in baking powder. It 

6 can be used as an anti-caking agent or as a 

7 stabilizer, helping to maintain the appearance in 

8 foods such as pancakes, biscuits, muffins, 

9 crackers, and cookies. Also used in self-rising 

10 flour. It's approved for use in the European 

11 Union, IFOAM, Canada, Japan, and it's also allowed 

12 by Codex. There was not a new TR for this sunset 

13 review period.

14 We had numerous comments, both in 

15 writing and orally, that were in support of the 

16 continued listing of this material as it still 

17 seems to be very necessary and essential as a 

18 leavening agent. There were no comments against 

19 the re-listing of this compound.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

21 discussion of this item? Seeing none, we'll move 

22 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 
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1 remove sodium bicarbonate from the National List 

2 raise your hand. All those opposed? 

3 Abstentions? 

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

5 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

7 sodium carbonate. Dr. Brines? 

8 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

9 substance is included at Section 205.605(a) of the 

10 National List as sodium carbonate. Thanks. 

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Harold? 

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Sodium 

13 carbonate, also called washing soda or soda ash. 

14 It's also used as a leavening agent in organic 

15 handling. It's used as an anti-caking agent or as 

16 an acid regulator or as a stabilizer. It's 

17 essential for characteristic color and baking of 

18 German pretzels and lye rolls. It gives pretzels 

19 and lye rolls that distinctive brown crust without 

20 burning. It's also used in the making of ramen 

21 noodles. It can be used as a neutralizer in 

22 butter, cream, fluid milk and ice cream. Other 
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1 uses also include the processing of olives prior 

2 to canning and can be found in many Coca-Cola 

3 products.

4 The two previous sunset reviews did not 

5 find any environmental or human health concerns 

6 with this material. Through both periods of 

7 public comment on this sunset review, there was 

8 overwhelming support of the continued listing of 

9 this material as being essential for organic 

10 handling. There were no comments against the 

11 re-listing. 

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

13 further discussion on this item? Seeing none, 

14 we'll move to a vote. All those in favor of the 

15 motion to remove sodium carbonates from the 

16 National List, raise your hand. All those 

17 opposed? Abstentions?

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

19 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the National 

21 List is waxes, carnauba wax. Dr. Brines? 

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 
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1 substance is included at Section 205.605(a) of the 

2 National List as waxes, non-synthetic carnauba wax 

3 and wood resin. Thank you. 

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: At this time, we'll 

5 just consider the vote on carnauba wax. Zea? 

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: We're going to take 

7 these separately because there's just slightly 

8 different issues to point out. Carnauba wax is a 

9 natural extract or exudate from the tree Copernicia 

10 cerifera or Copernicia prunifera. It is, when it 

11 was originally reviewed, it was done so by the crops 

12 committee because it was considered post-harvest 

13 handling and all the waxes were reviewed together 

14 just under one heading, wax. And wood resin and 

15 carnauba were what was approved for the National 

16 List. But because it was the crops committee, 

17 there was never a vote taken on whether it was 

18 agricultural or non-agricultural. And so when it 

19 got transferred in the rule-writing process over 

20 to the handling section, it was just placed on 

21 605(a) without that vote ever having been taken. 

22 So, therefore, we feel that it is 
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1 important to have that vote and to consider then 

2 the annotation change to move it over to the proper 

3 list where it belongs, which is 606. So we'll do 

4 that as a separate annotation after the sunset 

5 process, but, in the meantime, we're going to 

6 consider renewing it, as we do for sunset, under 

7 this review. 

8 We did commission a technical report 

9 to look at the classification, to look at ancillary 

10 substances and because the original TAP was 

11 extremely sketchy. So we found in the TR that 

12 there is some organic carnauba on the market. We 

13 couldn't get accurate information about whether 

14 there's enough to meet the demand to take it off 

15 the list entirely, and so we will entertain the 

16 annotation change.

17 We looked into the ancillary substances 

18 and it appears that this wax is almost always 

19 combined in formulated products with other waxes, 

20 plus other substances, which some of which are on 

21 the National List and some of which may be 

22 considered ancillary, and that the raw material of 
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1 carnauba itself did not come into those 

2 formulations with anything we could identify as 

3 ancillary substances. And in the two rounds of 

4 public comment, while we got criticism that we 

5 should include an ancillary substance chart, there 

6 were not specific suggestions of which things were 

7 ancillary substances in raw ingredients, and we 

8 have not been able to find any. And so we're going 

9 to have to leave that to the reviewers of the 

10 formulated products to determine compliance. But 

11 we do know that OMRI and others have approved 

12 certain formulations with all things on the 

13 National List and so that it is possible to be 

14 compliant on these waxes. 

15 We got pretty general support for 

16 renewing this, whatever category it's in. People 

17 didn't object to whatever category it's in. But 

18 one point brought up frequently in the public 

19 comment, especially from the public interest 

20 groups, was the desire for labeling of the fruit 

21 and vegetables that have been waxed. 

22 It's pretty clear that consumers do not 
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1 expect their produce to be waxed. And probably, 

2 if it was explained to them sufficiently what it 

3 was waxed with in an organic situation, they would 

4 be fine with it, but there isn't really the 

5 opportunity to explain that. And labeling, while 

6 it is a requirement for containers, is not 

7 necessarily a requirement for signage in stores or 

8 for individual fruit stickers and the like. 

9 So we looked into whether we could put 

10 an annotation, such as labeling, through and the 

11 Department told us that we could not. And so, 

12 therefore, we are urging voluntary labeling for 

13 produce coatings at the store level and are not 

14 putting forward an additional labeling annotation 

15 at this time. 

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

17 discussion on this item? Jean? 

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea, two questions. 

19 Did you receive any public comment suggesting that 

20 there are human health issues related to it? And 

21 also could you clarify the extent of its necessity 

22 in organic production? 
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: No, no public 

2 comment about human health that I was able to find 

3 in two rounds. And its necessity, it is a 

4 transpiration blocker and, therefore -- I mean, 

5 it's also used for cosmetic purposes for shine. 

6 But the main function is really to retard 

7 evaporative loss from fruit peel in citrus and in 

8 apples and other fruits and in some vegetables. So 

9 to the point that something needs to travel to get 

10 into the distant market and then be around on a 

11 store shelf, yes, it's very much necessary. If you 

12 want to restrict organics to local sales, then 

13 maybe not so much necessary. 

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I wanted to 

16 follow-up. So it's not grown. It's harvested? 

17 Wild?

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: There are some 

19 certified organic plantations, but it almost all 

20 comes from Brazil. 

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So it's planted and 

22 then grown under conventional production 
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1 typically?

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: The non-organic 

3 forms are conventional, yes. But I don't know 

4 about wild harvest, if that also occurs. 

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, Zea, I was 

6 wondering if either you or the department could 

7 elaborate a little bit more on the restrictions 

8 that we're under with regard to making an 

9 annotation on labeling of the waxes? So, I mean, 

10 just for my edification. 

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: That has to be the 

12 Department, not me. 

13 MR. MCEVOY: So the question is about 

14 requiring or recommending a requirement that -- 

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: That waxed fruit be 

16 labeled at the point of sale. 

17 MR. MCEVOY: Right. So the authority 

18 on the Organic Food Production Act is about organic 

19 labeling, so to require labeling on an organic 

20 product is further labeled with some other material 

21 would be outside the scope or the authority of the 

22 Organic Food Production Act. 
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: Whose authority 

2 would it be under? 

3 MR. MCEVOY: I would expect FDA. 

4 MEMBER MARAVELL: And if the Board were 

5 to make a recommendation to move in that direction, 

6 then the Secretary is authorized under the statute 

7 to coordinate with the other secretaries. Is that 

8 something that could be brought up for inter-agency 

9 coordination? 

10 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, that's certainly a 

11 possible, if the Board made a recommendation in 

12 that regard, that we could forward that 

13 recommendation to FDA and work with them to see if 

14 that's a possibility. I think it might be a better 

15 route for us to explore where that authority lies 

16 and, if it is with FDA, have them present and to 

17 address that as a possible outcome. 

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: So, Zea, if you feel 

19 that's a productive route to go, perhaps that could 

20 be a continuing part of this discussion that we 

21 could -- 

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: I would be happy to 
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1 bring that back to the Handling Subcommittee to see 

2 what we could do in that regard. And this applies 

3 to all three of the wax products. 

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

5 discussion on this item? Seeing none, we'll move 

6 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 

7 remove waxes, carnauba wax, from the National List 

8 raise your hand. All those opposed? 

9 Abstentions? 

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

11 yes, 13 no, one abstention. The motion fails. 

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

13 wood rosin, sic resin. 

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Yes, the 

15 current listing on the National List is under 

16 Section 205.605(a). The listing currently reads 

17 as follows: waxes, non-synthetic, carnauba wax and 

18 wood resin. Thank you. 

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea? 

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. This has 

21 many things in common with the previous wax. 

22 However, this one clearly is in need of a technical 
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1 correction and for the spelling of wood rosin, 

2 which is actually a different substance than wood 

3 resin, and the TR points that out clearly. We 

4 quoted it in the beginning of the review so that 

5 it's very clear to the people who need to do that 

6 technical correction. And once again, this is a 

7 component of usually-formulated coating materials 

8 because a combination of shellac, carnauba, and 

9 rosin for different purposes is what works best. 

10 We were unable to find any ancillary substances 

11 that came with the raw material, but there may be 

12 some added to formulations. 

13 We heard input from a number of 

14 interested parties that wanted this kept on the 

15 list because it is used in the wax formulations. 

16 But unlike carnauba, it is not ever produced 

17 organically because it's a byproduct generally, 

18 rather than grown solely for that purpose.

19 Same issues apply concerning labeling. 

20 And we will, once again, take the labeling back to 

21 the committee, and general support with the 

22 provisional concern about labeling.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

2 discussion on this item? Jean? 

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Did you receive 

4 additional comment that would indicate that there 

5 were any health impacts from the use of this resin? 

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: No. 

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

8 discussion? Colehour? 

9 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. I 

10 apologize if I missed this, which, I'm not sure if 

11 I did or not. But if I did, I'm sorry. I'm just 

12 curious about some of the comments that we received 

13 regarding methods of extraction or annotation 

14 restricting extraction approaches on this.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Extraction of wood 

16 rosin? I don't, I don't recall seeing anything 

17 specific to wood rosin. 

18 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay. Maybe you're 

19 right. Actually, maybe that was back to carnauba. 

20 Okay, thank you. 

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

22 discussion of this item? Seeing none, we'll move 
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1 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 

2 remove waxes, wood rosin, from the National List 

3 say aye, raise your hand. All those opposed? All 

4 those abstaining? 

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

6 yes, 13 no, one abstention. The motion fails. 

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

8 yeast. Dr. Brines? 

9 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This is the 

10 final material included at Section 205.605(a) of 

11 the National List. The listing reads as yeast, 

12 when used as food or a fermentation agent, yeast 

13 must be organic if it's end use is for human 

14 consumption. Non-organic yeast may be used when 

15 equivalent organic use is not commercially 

16 available. Growth on petrochemical substrate and 

17 sulfite waste liquor is prohibited. For smoked 

18 yeast, non-synthetic smoke flavoring process must 

19 be documented. Thanks. 

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea? 

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. Okay. 

22 Yeast. This review is mercifully short compared 
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1 to some of our previous discussions about yeast on 

2 the NOSB. We did, in the first posting, survey the 

3 industry to find out how much progress was being 

4 made on the use of organic yeast for all the 

5 different ways in which yeast is used. That's a 

6 good example of the National List process working 

7 because, leading up to the change in 2010, it was 

8 no commercial availability requirement towards use 

9 of organic yeast. There are dozens, if not 

10 hundreds, of forms of yeast and different purposes 

11 that yeast is used for, and there would need to be 

12 a specific organic farm for each particular use. 

13 So over the years that it's been reviewed, many of 

14 these strains of yeast and many of these uses have 

15 been able to be filled by organically-grown yeast 

16 but not quite all of them. 

17 So the commenters in the first round of 

18 publication indicated that the forms of yeast that 

19 are not yet available organically include Torula 

20 yeast, nutritional yeast for livestock feed, 

21 gluten-free yeast, fresh yeast, and some types of 

22 wine yeast. One supplier suggested that dry yeast 
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1 could be removed from the list while other forms 

2 stayed, but this is a distinction that it would be 

3 very, not the top of our priority list for an 

4 annotation change to try and make it this time. 

5 I'll put it that way. We would entertain a 

6 petition for that, if someone wants to. 

7 We took a look at the ancillary 

8 substances in yeast. We posed the question in the 

9 first posting information is sought on why any 

10 ancillary substances in yeast do not meet the 

11 review criteria in the organic rule. The only 

12 answer we got or only comment that addressed that 

13 was questioning VHT in terms of human exposure but 

14 no specific answers on the review criteria that we 

15 used. So we are proposing renewing yeast at this 

16 time. 

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

18 discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. 

19 All those in favor of the motion to remove yeast 

20 from the National List, raise your hand. All those 

21 opposed? Abstentions? 

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 
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1 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: That concludes the 

3 sunset review of 205.605(a), and we'll proceed to 

4 205.605(b), starting with acidified sodium 

5 chlorite. Dr. Brines? 

6 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

7 substance is included under Section 205.605(b), 

8 synthetics allowed. The listing reads as 

9 acidified sodium chlorite, secondary direct 

10 antimicrobial food treatment and indirect food 

11 contact surface sanitizing, acidified with citric 

12 acid only. Thank you. 

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley? 

14 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Acidified sodium 

15 chlorite is used as a processing aid, for example 

16 as carcass washes. Comments stated that it is an 

17 extremely valuable tool in their food safety 

18 programs. And based on the overwhelming majority 

19 of public comment in both meetings in support of 

20 re-listing, the subcommittee felt this should be 

21 renewed. And I will point out that one comment 

22 stated we should consider an annotation change, and 
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1 we can discuss this at the subcommittee level if 

2 this is something that we would like to pursue. 

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea? 

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Just a question for 

5 Ashley. What annotation change was suggested? 

6 Because I don't recall seeing that. 

7 MEMBER SWAFFAR: One group said that 

8 the listing for ASC should be annotated no 

9 detectable residue may be present in the final 

10 food. We can discuss that. 

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. 

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

13 discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. 

14 All those in favor of the motion to remove acidified 

15 sodium chlorite from the National List, raise your 

16 hand. All those opposed? All those abstaining? 

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Calvin, I'm sorry, 

18 I didn't see your vote. 

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Is that a no vote? 

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. We had 

21 one yes, 13 no, zero abstentions. The motion 

22 fails. 
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

2 alginates. Dr. Brines? 

3 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

4 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

5 National List as alginates. Thank you. 

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy? 

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes. Alginates 

8 occur naturally in seaweed, mainly in the form of 

9 sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium salts 

10 with alginic acid. They are unique in that they 

11 form gels or act as coatings or thickeners without 

12 requiring heating, thereby making them ideal for 

13 applications where food is sensitive to 

14 temperatures. 

15 Public comment was mixed in regards to 

16 alginates. Those in favor of its re-listing note 

17 its long history of use with no ill effects on human 

18 digestion or ecosystem due to harvesting and assert 

19 the properties imparted by alginates are essential 

20 for some processed food formulations. Those 

21 opposed express concern regarding the 

22 concentration of heavy metals in wild harvested 
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1 seaweed and the fact that alginates are used 

2 primarily to enhance texture in foods and, 

3 therefore, not compatible with OFPA criteria. One 

4 commenter urged de-listing unless they have 

5 allowed uses for which they are essential. This 

6 is, again, a sea product where we have some concerns 

7 expressed in regards to over-harvesting and 

8 potential ecosystem impact. We had a unanimous 

9 vote of those present to not remove alginates, but 

10 we did have three absent at the time of the vote. 

11 And since it is so widely used for some key 

12 applications, I am still inclined to leave it on 

13 the list until we come up with more of a 

14 systems-based approach for how to deal with sea 

15 products. 

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

17 further discussion of this item? Yes? 

18 MEMBER BONDERA: That comment that you 

19 just made, Tracy, regarding essentiality resonates 

20 with me, and I'm just curious if or how it would 

21 be determined that the product is essential. By 

22 who? I'm not sure how to wrap my brain around that 
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1 concept in this example or in this case. I don't 

2 know if you have any thoughts on that. 

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Well, just like we 

4 determine essentiality from others that have used 

5 products and sent in comments that it's important 

6 to their process. In particular, given the fact 

7 that it has unique applications for 

8 low-temperature products, I think that's an 

9 indication to me. 

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea? 

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour, at the 

12 spring meeting, not so much this meeting but the 

13 spring meeting, we heard very specific public 

14 comment, verbal and written, about the 

15 applications that alginates are used for and are 

16 considered essential. But I don't recall the 

17 details right now of what those were, but I do know 

18 that we received that input. 

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Colehour? 

20 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, thank you, Zea. 

21 I guess, as a follow-up, my question was how and 

22 who would be determining that essentiality in terms 
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1 of use versus necessary need, and, in this case, 

2 again, I'm not sure how to determine that or wrap 

3 my brain around it. Thank you. 

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: We'll go to Tracy and 

5 then Jean. Tracy? 

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Just in response to 

7 that, the TR did indicate that there were some 

8 unique properties. 

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tracy, just to 

11 clarify, this would be one of the large group of 

12 materials that we'll be looking at how to deal with 

13 in terms of its derivation from ground seaweed? 

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes. 

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: And I have one 

16 specific comment from the first listing that said 

17 it's effective for supporting structure and 

18 stabilization and thickening of products in an 

19 acidic environment. The majority of our products 

20 are acidic. Provides stability in calcium 

21 environments, such as yogurts and other dairy 

22 products. Zea? 
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: In response to 

2 Colehour, I just want to say we did discuss this 

3 thoroughly at the subcommittee level because I went 

4 into this questioning why we had so many gums on 

5 the list or thickening agents and I really wanted 

6 to try and tease out the difference between the 

7 different ones and their uses. And so we did look 

8 into this fairly extensively at the subcommittee. 

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

10 discussion? The Handling Subcommittee notes the 

11 request for further review of marine items. 

12 Seeing no further discussion, we will move to a 

13 vote. 

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Was Harold able to 

15 hear the discussion during that period when you had 

16 up a funny thing or not? 

17 MEMBER AUSTIN: No, I was not. 

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So for how long was 

19 Harold not at the meeting? 

20 MEMBER AUSTIN: We had just started 

21 talking about the alginates, and then you all left 

22 me. 
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So, Harold, let me 

2 ask you a question. Have you read the materials 

3 and public comment relative to alginates? 

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: I have, Jean, and I'm 

5 comfortable to vote at this time. 

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Is there any 

7 objection to Harold voting, even though he hasn't 

8 been present for the last few minutes? I see no 

9 objection. Okay, Tom? 

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: We'll move to a vote 

11 on this item. All those in favor of the motion to 

12 remove alginates from the National List, raise your 

13 hand. All those opposed? All those abstaining? 

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was 2 yes, 

15 11 no, one abstention. The motion fails. 

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the National 

17 List is ammonium bicarbonate. Dr. Brines? 

18 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

19 substance is included on Section 205.605(b) of the 

20 National List as ammonium bicarbonate for use only 

21 as a leavening agent. Thanks. 

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Harold? 
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Thanks, Tom. 

2 Ammonium bicarbonate is used as a leavening agent. 

3 It has critical functionality in certain cookie and 

4 cracker baking. Used in baking where yeast is not 

5 used. It cannot be used in moist baked goods. It 

6 helps provide certain characteristics, textures, 

7 such as in crackers, as well as aids in controlling 

8 of cookie spread during baking. 

9 I'd also point out that both of the 

10 ammonium carbonates are the only leavening agent 

11 that are completely eliminated through the baking 

12 process and there currently, according to the 

13 comments received, there currently are no organic 

14 alternatives to these materials. 

15 They're approved for use widespread in 

16 various other countries. During the original TAP, 

17 previous sunsets, and during both postings for this 

18 round of sunset review for both public comment 

19 periods, there were no concerns raised of 

20 environmental or human health concerns or issues 

21 at this time. All public comment for both postings 

22 were in favor of continue keeping these materials 
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1 on the National List. 

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

3 discussion on this item? Seeing none, we'll move 

4 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 

5 remove ammonium bicarbonate from the National List 

6 raise your hand. All those opposed? 

7 Abstentions? 

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

9 yes, 14 no, zero abstentions. The motion fails. 

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

11 ammonium carbonate. Dr. Brines? 

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Similarly, 

13 this substance is included at Section 205.605(b) 

14 of the National List and reads as ammonium 

15 carbonate, for use only as a leavening agent. 

16 Thank you. 

17 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Ammonium 

18 carbonate. It's used in the baking of flat-baked 

19 goods, such as cookies, crackers. It's often 

20 referred to as baker's ammonia in cooking recipes 

21 and by chefs. It's also used in the baking of bread 

22 sticks, cookies, crackers, because it helps them 
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1 to be both lighter and crispier. It's also used 

2 in many traditional Greek cooking recipes. 

3 They're heat activated, so they do not rise until 

4 they're put into the oven and the baking process 

5 starts. And, again, like ammonium bicarbonate, 

6 ammonium carbonate also is completely eliminated 

7 during the baking process. 

8 Again, there are no organic 

9 alternatives that have been stated. Widely 

10 recognized for use. Considered GRAS by the FDA.

11 This one, during the first posting for 

12 public comment, we did not receive any comments 

13 specifically for this material. During the second 

14 posting, we received two comments, one from a 

15 handler and one from a producer, that were in 

16 support of the re-listing of this material. One 

17 public interest group did not support the 

18 re-listing simply because there was a lack of 

19 showing any support during the first round of 

20 public comments.

21 I would point out that both of these 

22 materials have been looked at together in the past 
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1 in previous sunset reviews, and so there may be a 

2 little bit of confusion from the organic handlers 

3 just considering both of these materials 

4 interchangeable, one versus the other. So I'm 

5 thinking that that's probably why, originally, we 

6 did not get a lot of public comment coming back in 

7 from it. 

8 Other than that, we had three comments, 

9 two in support of re-listing and one not just 

10 because there wasn't enough support. 

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

12 discussion of this item? Seeing none, we'll move 

13 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 

14 remove ammonium carbonate from the National List 

15 raise your hand. All those opposed? 

16 Abstentions? 

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

18 yes, 14 no, zero abstentions. The motion fails. 

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

20 ascorbic acid. Dr. Brines? 

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

22 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 
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1 National List and reads as ascorbic acid. 

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy? 

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Ascorbic acid is a 

4 vital nutrient necessary for humans and other 

5 primates. It's added to many foods to restore 

6 vitamin C lost during processing. Some FDA 

7 regulations require vitamin C fortification, which 

8 is often achieved with ascorbic acid. It's used, 

9 it's manufactured using a culture process from 

10 dextrose.

11 Public comment was divided with some 

12 comments -- I should remark that the primary source 

13 of vitamin C is ascorbic acid. So public comment 

14 was divided. Some commenters remarking that it's 

15 being used primarily as a preservative and, 

16 therefore, not consistent with organic agriculture 

17 production. However, the majority of comments 

18 strongly supported re-listing, stating the 

19 ingredient to be critically essential to 

20 maintaining nutrients and freshness in their 

21 products.

22 The vote was unanimous to retain 
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1 ascorbic acid on the National List.

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

3 discussion on this item? Seeing none, we'll move 

4 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 

5 remove ascorbic acid from the National List raise 

6 your hand. All those opposed? All those 

7 abstaining?

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

9 yes, 14 no. The motion fails. 

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

11 calcium citrate. Dr. Brines? 

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

13 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

14 National List and reads as calcium citrate. 

15 Thanks. 

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley? 

17 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Calcium citrate has 

18 many uses, including a pH adjuster, and used during 

19 cleaning and sanitizing products. We received 

20 very few comments, but we did receive some from 

21 handlers stating that they support the re-listing. 

22 The subcommittee was unanimous in support for 
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1 re-listing, and one comment did suggest an 

2 annotation change, and we can discuss this at the 

3 subcommittee level if this is something that we'll 

4 be pursuing. 

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

6 discussion? Jean? 

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Ashley, can you 

8 clarify what was the annotation change that was 

9 being suggested? 

10 MEMBER SWAFFAR: So the commenter said 

11 many, if not all, of the citrates are prohibited 

12 by 205.600(b)(4), preservative, flavors, color 

13 enhancement, nutritional fortification, and the 

14 use of calcium citrate should be restricted to uses 

15 that are in compliance with 205.600(b)(4). 

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

17 discussion of this item? Tracy, did that 

18 commenter provide any information about this 

19 substance -- Ashley -- this substance is used as 

20 an adjuvant or a processing aid? Because that's 

21 what that section applies to. 

22 MEMBER SWAFFAR: No. 
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

2 further discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a 

3 vote. All those in favor of the motion to remove 

4 calcium citrate from the National List raise your 

5 hand. All those opposed? Abstaining? Zea? 

6 Zea, we didn't get -- is that a no vote or an 

7 abstention? 

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was one no, 

9 13 -- excuse me. One yes, 13 no, zero abstentions. 

10 The motion fails. 

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

12 calcium hydroxide. Dr. Brines? 

13 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

14 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

15 National List and reads as calcium hydroxide. 

16 Thanks. 

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Calcium hydroxide 

19 is used in aluminum-free baking powder and 

20 clarifies sugar from molasses and is a necessary 

21 conditioner in the making of the corn for 

22 tortillas. It appears to be quite necessary in a 
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1 number of industrial applications, food 

2 applications. No alternatives have been 

3 identified. It does not appear to have negative 

4 human health impacts, and the public comment 

5 supports its continued re-listing and in 

6 subcommittee it was unanimously voted to be 

7 retained on the list. Nothing further seems to 

8 indicate that we should take it off the list.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

10 discussion of this item? Seeing none, we'll move 

11 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 

12 remove calcium hydroxide from the National List 

13 raise your hand. All those opposed? Those 

14 abstaining? 

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

16 yes, 13 no, one abstention. The motion fails. 

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

18 calcium phosphates. Dr. Brines? 

19 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

20 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

21 National List and reads as calcium phosphates, 

22 monobasic, dibasic, and tribasic. Thank you. 
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Harold? 

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you, Tom. All 

3 three of the calcium phosphates are used as 

4 leavening agents in organic handling. They're 

5 used as dough conditioners, yeast food, and/or as 

6 expanding agents. Considered to be a critical 

7 component in baking powder, aluminum-free. 

8 Monobasic also could be used as a buffer, a firming 

9 agent, a sequestering agent, and is popular in 

10 pancake mixes, usually in combination with sodium 

11 bicarbonate. Also can be used in baking goods, 

12 such as cookies, cakes, potato chips, and also 

13 sometimes used as a firming agent in canned fruits 

14 and vegetables. 

15 Dibasic calcium phosphate is used to 

16 enrich flour, noodle products, and in both dry and 

17 cooked forms of breakfast cereals. It is often 

18 used as a dough conditioner and can be added as a 

19 thickening agent for various cheese products. 

20 Tribasic calcium phosphate is an 

21 anti-caking agent, buffering agent, provides very 

22 critical function as a free-flow aid in 
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1 finely-powdered salt and other seasonings used in 

2 baking. Also serves as a food source for yeast and 

3 bread-making. It can be used as an anti-caking 

4 agent, dry powder, such as spices. Also as a 

5 thickener, stabilizer, and a sequestering agent in 

6 many dairy products.

7 The original TAP and the previous 

8 sunsets and previous public comment and historical 

9 information looked at did not raise any human 

10 health or environmental concerns or issues in the 

11 past and found these materials to be of low toxicity 

12 and low environmental contamination concerns.

13 During our first cycle of public 

14 comment period, this time we received 11 comments, 

15 mostly in support. There were a couple of concerns 

16 raised which I'll delve into here in just a little 

17 bit. 

18 During the second posting for public 

19 comment, we received 14 additional comments, 

20 supported by three oral comments, as well, that we 

21 received yesterday. We had one trade association 

22 survey that showed that these are still very 
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1 essential. One certifier stated that there were 

2 some used that they certify. Two stakeholders 

3 stated that there's still a strong need for these 

4 materials. Six handlers in support, one 

5 international inspectors association in support.

6 One commenter also stated that calcium 

7 phosphates are used in several of their plant-based 

8 organic beverages as a source of calcium. Another 

9 stated that they're used in their organic crackers 

10 and have yet to find an organic alternative that 

11 would work suitably for them.

12 One commenter, providing both written 

13 and oral statements, stated that, while concerns 

14 have been raised by some commenters on the 

15 accumulative health impact, the safety of 

16 phosphates is also supported by international 

17 regulatory authorities, such as the U.S. FDA, 

18 European Commission, Health Canada, Food Standards 

19 of Australia, New Zealand, and many others.

20 Additionally, the joint FAO/WHO Expert 

21 Committee on Food Additives, an international 

22 scientific body responsible for evaluating the 
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1 safety of food additives, has reviewed phosphate 

2 additives numerous times over the past 50 years and 

3 has consistently found them to be safe and suitable 

4 for use in food.

5 This commenter also raised concerns 

6 about some of the studies that were being 

7 referenced, stating that these were not peer 

8 reviewed and challenged the validity of some of the 

9 information put forth. There was also an oral 

10 testimony yesterday by Dr. Myra Weiner that stated 

11 that dietary studies show how safe and 

12 non-carcinogenic the phosphates are and 

13 accumulative levels were very low in comparison to 

14 the daily intake needs. They asked that calcium 

15 phosphates continue to be allowed until we can 

16 properly review the TR, as requested, the 

17 scientific literature that is both complete and 

18 thorough.

19 And part of this is we had two public 

20 interest groups and one trade association not in 

21 favor of re-listing at this time, stating that the 

22 use of inorganic forms of phosphates as a whole 
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1 caused by an overall increase of usage has raised 

2 some human health concerns. 

3 The subcommittee at this time has 

4 requested a new technical evaluation report to help 

5 provide a more detailed and non-partial 

6 information on this material for us to review. We 

7 are ready to take up this discussion on phosphates 

8 in a more detailed frame as a whole once we have 

9 received a TR and can have this discussion in the 

10 spring.

11 We need to cautiously, be cautious in 

12 our approach but thoroughly look at the concerns 

13 that have been raised and then revisit these 

14 materials when we're better informed to have a 

15 transparent decision and discussion. 

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

17 discussion of this item? 

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. There's been 

19 some requests from the public commenters that the 

20 materials, in general, be tabled until we're able 

21 to review the technical review that's coming in. 

22 Could I just get clarification why that is an option 
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1 that we are not considering? 

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I would ask McEvoy 

3 to please provide us with clarification as to why 

4 we are not tabling any of these sunset materials 

5 at this time. Is it due to rulemaking or what might 

6 be the reason? 

7 MR. MCEVOY: Sure. Yes, this is the 

8 second meeting for sunset review of these 2017 

9 materials, and so, in order for us to complete the 

10 work that we need to do in terms of renewing these 

11 substances after the Board completes their review 

12 of these substances, we need the Board to complete 

13 their review at this meeting. There's nothing 

14 that precludes the Board from taking up these 

15 substances in the future, but this is the second 

16 meeting and the meeting where we need the Board to 

17 complete their review of the 2017 substances. 

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So we have Nick as a 

19 follow-up, then Zea, then Harold. Nick? 

20 MEMBER MARAVELL: So could I just get 

21 some additional information on how the Board would 

22 proceed if the Board wanted to bring up the issue 
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1 of these phosphates? I'm not quite sure, some of 

2 these procedures are new to me, what would be the 

3 process that the Board would engage in. 

4 MR. MCEVOY: Well, the Board creates a 

5 work agenda in conjunction with the program for 

6 what they're going to work on in the next semester 

7 or the next time frame. And so if the Board wants 

8 to take up these particular issues and look at 

9 phosphates in particular, you can request to put 

10 that on the work agenda for additional 

11 consideration. 

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Would that be a Board 

13 petition, or what would be the mechanism?

14 MR. MCEVOY: The mechanism is the 

15 mechanism that exists for any particular topic that 

16 the Board would like to consider. So there are 

17 items that go on the work agenda that are from 

18 petitions. There are items that go on to the work 

19 agenda because of sunset review time frames. 

20 There's items that go on the agenda because of a 

21 request from a program, and there are items that 

22 go on the agenda from requests from the Board 
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1 themselves. 

2 So if this is something that the Board 

3 wants to take on as additional work, then it gets 

4 brought forward by the subcommittee to the 

5 Executive Committee, and there's a discussion of 

6 the Executive Committee for the final work agenda 

7 for the next semester, the next time frame. So 

8 it's the same process that we've had in place for 

9 many years. 

10 MEMBER MARAVELL: Well, I'm a little 

11 unclear what motion the Board would make on this 

12 matter.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So if I can follow-up, 

14 Nick, the Handling Subcommittee requested a TR for 

15 all phosphates to look at the accumulated health 

16 effects. Our intention was to wait for that to 

17 come back, review it, and then, at that point, if 

18 additional action was necessary, to add phosphates 

19 as a whole to the work agenda to then spur 

20 proposals, much like we have on Thursday that have 

21 come up. A couple from the Handling Committee are 

22 the reclassifications and the annotation changes. 
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1 Given our last executive call, we 

2 thought it was prudent to actually request 

3 phosphates be added to the work agenda prior to the 

4 TR. So that request has been made to the Executive 

5 Committee, and it's in this process right now. 

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: So, for example, an 

7 annotation change could be proposed and voted on 

8 by the Board at the next meeting, for example? 

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: For example, that's a 

10 possibility or even a recommendation to remove the 

11 material.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Oh, okay. But that 

13 would be on a separate track because we've already 

14 done the sunset approval but --

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: It would be a proposal 

16 separate from sunset.

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, okay. I just

18 need to be clear. 

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next, Zea and then 

20 Harold. 

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. I have two 

22 points. And, Miles, correct me if I'm wrong, but 
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1 I believe we were told recently by the department 

2 that we can do a sunset review shorter than five 

3 years if we wish to move some things up so that we 

4 can spread up our workload for five years from now 

5 again. So we could consider doing another, you 

6 know, doing a proactive sunset review, if we will, 

7 in six months or a year from now, right? 

8 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, we've had some 

9 discussions about that. I think we need to think 

10 about that in more depth because the sunset review 

11 process has to occur within that five-year time 

12 frame, and so these substances that are being 

13 reviewed at the current time are not renewed yet, 

14 right? So there's already been a number of votes 

15 to complete the review of a number of these 

16 substances. Sometime next year, the AMS will 

17 publish a Federal Register notice to renew these 

18 substances, and then they'll be renewed starting 

19 at the sunset date, which is actually not until 

20 2017, and that's when the five-year time frame 

21 begins.

22 So if you did a sunset, an additional 
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1 sunset review between now and when the new time 

2 frame starts, it probably would not count. So 

3 those are, I think we just need more time to 

4 consider that request of reviewing these 

5 substances through a sunset review process between 

6 now and the next sunset date.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: However, if we take 

8 up something for a future annotation change, like 

9 in six months or a year, then that will reset the 

10 sunset clock for that period when that rulemaking 

11 is done on an annotation change.

12 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, that's correct. 

13 When there's a proposed rule and the final rule for 

14 any kind of change to a substance annotation, then 

15 that resets the five-year time frame.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. So my next 

17 point is more broad, but it applies to the 

18 phosphates. There's a lot of information about 

19 food and food hazards that comes out in the press 

20 all the time. It seems that every time we have an 

21 open public comment period or sometimes just 

22 coincidentally right before a meeting we get these 
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1 broad, sweeping press reports concerning food 

2 hazards. Before the last meeting, there was a very 

3 generalized one about how all gums and thickeners 

4 led to gut inflammation. I don't know if people 

5 recall this in the spring. But if you looked back 

6 at it, if you looked at the details of the study 

7 that it was based on and the article, it was 

8 extrapolation from one very narrow study about one 

9 inflammation situation, saying that if this gum 

10 caused that then all gums probably do, and all gums 

11 probably do is what's picked up by the press.

12 In the last six months, we've recently, 

13 very recently had an article about cured meat 

14 causes cancer. Well, I didn't have time to go back 

15 to the citation of the original study because this 

16 was so recent, but the popular press articles did 

17 not say what about cured meat caused cancer. And 

18 when you got to the bottom of the article, they said 

19 you don't really have to stop eating bacon, you just 

20 have to eat less bacon. Well, this is not what 

21 people consider evidence exactly, and so we need 

22 to do more investigation of these things. 
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1 And so the claim that phosphates 

2 cumulatively are bad for you may be right, but we 

3 have no idea of how much phosphate needs to 

4 accumulate, how many servings of something this 

5 means, and all of the necessary details that you 

6 would need to make an informed decision about this. 

7 And so there is one simple way in our 

8 personal life to deal with this, and that is eat 

9 less processed food. And I'm sorry if that offends 

10 food manufacturers. But the world is a big, scary 

11 place in the world of food, and so, while we 

12 evaluate the evidence, we need time to look into 

13 these things. That's why we commissioned a TR. 

14 But because we can't tell if, you know, if you eat 

15 14 cups of yogurt a day you're getting too much 

16 phosphates, or if you eat a typical serving of one 

17 yogurt every week, that's too much. 

18 So we need to take a better look at it, 

19 and I'm not prepared to not proceed with sunset 

20 because of this lack of detail in our input. But 

21 we are taking it seriously, and we will take a 

22 further look at it. Same thing with the processed 
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1 meat causes cancer thing so everyone can still eat 

2 some bacon, if not all the bacon they want.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Harold? 

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes, I just wanted to 

5 let everybody know that, during our subcommittee 

6 conversations on all the phosphates, calcium 

7 phosphates included, we took the comments leveled 

8 on the accumulative effect of them very seriously, 

9 and that's what prompted us to ask for the TR and 

10 ask for this to be added to our work agenda for the 

11 spring. 

12 As we saw yesterday, we see that there's 

13 other sides of the science being presented. So I 

14 think we need to move cautiously. I think we still 

15 need to support these materials for the time being 

16 until we can make a validated decision based off 

17 of the information provided to us once we receive 

18 the TR. And then we can make a decision based off 

19 the facts in a clear, concise way that's 

20 transparent and can lead us forward. Whether we 

21 annotate or we choose to remove them at that point 

22 in time yet to be determined, but that's a decision 
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1 that we need to decide in the future. Today, we 

2 need to focus on the sunset. So thanks, Tom. 

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean? 

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. In a way, I'm 

5 just reiterating what Zea and Harold have just said 

6 is that we took this issue of the potential 

7 accumulative impacts of the phosphates very 

8 seriously, and I had thought that I would vote 

9 against this material. But I just don't feel that 

10 I really have enough scientific data to support 

11 removal at this time, and I take very seriously the 

12 need for us to have a really high-quality technical 

13 report that would allow us to fully evaluate the 

14 potential health effects on a cumulative basis. 

15 So it seems like keeping it, for 

16 everybody to bear in mind that we will be looking 

17 at this in great detail on our work agenda 

18 immediately following this meeting. 

19 MEMBER DE LIMA: I just want to 

20 follow-up on something. An oral commenter 

21 suggested that maybe the phosphates were in certain 

22 products due to the FDA's standard of identity, and 
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1 that is not the case for the products that I was 

2 asking about. 

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Harold, I noted in 

4 your review you said that calcium phosphate was 

5 used in an enriched flour. Do you know if that was 

6 due to an FDA requirement for the enrichment of 

7 flour? 

8 MEMBER AUSTIN: That I do not, Tom. 

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea? 

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: If you look in the 

11 nutrient vitamins and minerals TR, it does say the 

12 requirements for enrichment, and it does not 

13 include the calcium phosphate. It's B vitamins 

14 mostly. 

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

16 further discussion on this item? Okay. I know I 

17 encouraged quickness and efficiency, but on these 

18 items, that's to ensure we have enough time on these 

19 items that we truly need a thorough discussion on. 

20 But seeing no further discussion, we 

21 shall move to a vote on this item. The motion is 

22 to remove calcium phosphates, monobasic, dibasic, 
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1 tribasic, from the National List. All those in 

2 favor of removing calcium phosphates from the list 

3 raise your hand. All those opposed? All those 

4 abstaining? 

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is 2 yes, 

6 10 no, 2 abstentions. The motion fails. 

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

8 carbon dioxide. Dr. Brines? 

9 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

10 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

11 National List and reads as carbon dioxide. 

12 Thanks. 

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Lisa? 

14 MEMBER DE LIMA: Carbon dioxide is used 

15 in modified atmosphere packaging. It's used in 

16 the freezing of foods, carbonation of beverages, 

17 as an extracting agent, and also as pest control 

18 in grain and produce storage. Over both the 

19 comment periods, all public comment that we 

20 received was in favor of re-listing. This 

21 includes organizations and industry. 

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 
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1 further discussion on carbon dioxide? Seeing 

2 none, we'll move to a vote. All those in favor of 

3 the motion to remove carbon dioxide from the 

4 National List raise your hand. All those opposed? 

5 Abstaining? 

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Zero yes, 14 no. 

7 The motion fails. 

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: At this time, I 

9 would like to suggest that we take a short break. 

10 If you'll return back here in 15 minutes, we'll 

11 start promptly again. And I imagine that the 

12 afternoon ones or the ones that we get to later on 

13 606 will take us quite a bit longer to get through 

14 as individuals than the ones we've been zipping 

15 through this morning. 

16 (Whereupon, the above-referenced 

17 matter went off the record at 10:26 

18 a.m. and went back on the record at 

19 10:50 a.m.)

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. The 

21 lobbying can stop now. Everybody can go back to 

22 their seats. 
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1 We will move along with the agenda, and 

2 we are not -- we won't be finished by lunch, because 

3 I'm not going to pay for it. So feel free to ask 

4 all of the discussion you want, Board members. Are 

5 we all back to our seats?

6 All right. I will turn this back over 

7 to the Chair of the Handling Committee. Tom, I 

8 think we are up to chlorine materials.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. One of the 

10 members has asked to speak. Mac Stone?

11 MEMBER STONE: Mr. Chairman, just for 

12 the record, as yesterday when I hold my hand with 

13 one finger up, that means yes, sir. If I hold a 

14 different finger up, you can interpret it any way 

15 you'd like.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. I am also 

17 waiting for Colehour to vote with the Shaka.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I would ask that 

19 those comments be deleted from the record.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes, Jennifer.

21 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you. Listening 

22 to the comments that we had going around the table
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1 in response to issues like essentiality and

2 comments from the public, and how we can increase 

3 those kinds of comments from the public, I do think 

4 that it is very important -- it's unfortunate that 

5 Miles isn't here right now -- but that it's 

6 important that we get that docket system in place 

7 or set up another alternative system, so that we 

8 can continually collect information from the 

9 public, and when it's time for our vote we're not 

10 resting on one response or two, or not enough 

11 response and assuming that we are missing folks. 

12 So we are actually having an annual year-long open 

13 docket.

14 I think that will really help our 

15 process and help our evaluation of the material 

16 successfully.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The Chair notes a 

18 general comment from Dr. Taylor in regards to the 

19 need to have a public docket just for a reminder 

20 to all of us on the Board and the NOP, that the 

21 broader publics would like to see an open docket 

22 that would allow us to receive ongoing public 
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1 comment. This isn't directly related to handling 

2 per se, but it is a general comment to be noted in 

3 the record.

4 Thank you, Jennifer.

5 Back to Tom.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Chlorine materials, 

7 Dr. Brines.

8 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This listing 

9 is at Section 205.605(b) of the National List and 

10 reads as follows, "Chlorine materials, 

11 disinfecting and sanitizing food contact surfaces, 

12 except that residual chlorine levels in the water 

13 shall not exceed the maximum residual disinfection 

14 limit under the Safe Drinking Water Act. Calcium 

15 hypochlorite, chlorine dioxide, and sodium 

16 hypochlorite."

17 Thanks.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley?

19 MEMBER SWAFFAR: The chlorine has many 

20 uses as a sanitizer, and the majority of public 

21 comment was in support of the relisting of 

22 chlorines, stating it was essential and 
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1 alternatives were not as effective. And I will 

2 point out that many industry-specific applications 

3 require that chlorine materials be used, and that's 

4 mandated by federal laws.

5 One commenter did state that we should 

6 request a limited scope TR to discover what is 

7 required by federal law. And as Francis said in 

8 crops, we may look at this across all committees. 

9 I think that's a great idea, and we will be taking 

10 that up in subcommittee. And the subcommittee 

11 unanimously felt chlorine should be relisted.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

13 discussion on this item? Colehour?

14 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Thank 

15 you, Ashley. For the sake of clarity, since I'm 

16 not on the Handling Subcommittee, and it sounded 

17 like from your comment just now you were talking 

18 about this subject, as we are all aware, may well 

19 be crossing subcommittees, in which case it would 

20 be something that somehow the Executive 

21 Subcommittee would figure out how this were 

22 pursued.
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1 I'm curious from your comments if a 

2 decision has been made that it would be taken up 

3 or looked at, or if you are just stating that you 

4 think it should be? It's a suggestion from you or 

5 if there has been a decision at the subcommittee 

6 level that it, indeed, will be? 

7 Thank you.

8 MEMBER SWAFFAR: We haven't talked 

9 about it in committee, because it came up in this 

10 round of public comment. So we will be discussing 

11 it at our next committee meeting.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Real quick, we also 

13 noted it as a research priority for the program. 

14 So if that's a follow up, Colehour, I'll go back 

15 to you. If it's not, then Zea, then you.

16 MEMBER BONDERA: It's a follow up.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: A follow up. Okay. 

18 Colehour, then Zea.

19 MEMBER BONDERA: Yeah. I think that, 

20 you know, I am aware of these things going on. 

21 However, it is, I think as I suggested, unclear to 

22 me when/if/how/when it is all going to be happening 
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1 at whatever level. And I think everybody might 

2 have their opinions, but I'm just curious how it 

3 would actually take action versus ideas. 

4 And I'm not specifically saying that to 

5 you, Ashley, but as a follow up I'm just wondering

6 how the Executive Subcommittee would handle or 

7 will -- plans to handle, or might handle even, this 

8 subject area when it is coming from various 

9 subcommittees. And I'm just not sure how or when 

10 it would be put on what agenda.

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Colehour, if I can 

13 take a shot at answering it, I think you have raised 

14 a very interesting point in terms of things that 

15 are cross-listed in different ways on different 

16 subcommittees. So here is how we have planned to 

17 try to make it work.

18 Every subcommittee chair, after this 

19 meeting, based on input at this meeting, will have 

20 a list of materials that they would like to have 

21 on the work agendas for the individual 

22 subcommittees. And all of those will go, as in the 
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1 normal process, to the Executive Committee at the 

2 first meeting following this, which I can't 

3 remember the date that it is, but it's in early 

4 November.

5 So all of these suggestions that we are 

6 going to be looking for annotations, petitions, 

7 possible decisions, or asking for technical 

8 reports, whatever may come to the Executive 

9 Committee to be discussed. They will have been 

10 sent in in writing, so -- and, of course, we 

11 copy -- as you know, everything that goes to the 

12 Executive goes to all of the Board, all of the NOSB 

13 members at the same time. And of course all of our 

14 executive subcommittees, as you know, because you 

15 sit in on all of them, are open to all of the other 

16 Board members sitting on it.

17 So everybody should know right away 

18 which are all of the materials of concern that we 

19 are going to try to look at, so that they can be 

20 put onto the -- not only onto the individual work 

21 agendas of each of the individual subcommittees, 

22 but in addition to that we definitely have to 
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1 address the fact that there are several materials 

2 that cross subcommittees. And chlorine materials 

3 is one of the main ones; hence, one of the reasons 

4 why we have them put onto our research agenda.

5 I don't -- right off the top of my head, 

6 I can't tell you exactly how we are going to be doing 

7 it, but it will be that each of those subcommittee 

8 chairs, and the lead people on the chlorine 

9 materials and each of the subcommittees, will be 

10 in constant communication with each other via email 

11 as they begin to develop different work product 

12 documents as we go through the next few months.

13 So, and it will all, obviously, be open 

14 and transparent to all members of the subcommittee 

15 and NOSB as we are working on that. Does that sort 

16 of make you a bit more comfortable as to how we are 

17 going to proceed? Because we are pretty serious 

18 about being able to, you know, really look at all 

19 of these materials and all of the newest 

20 information that has come out.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. 

22 Any -- Zea?
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: I wonder if this 

2 would be an appropriate moment to ask Ashley or 

3 Emily, or their department, for an update about 

4 electrolyzed water, which is mentioned in here.

5 MR. McEVOY: Sure. Electrolyzed 

6 water, let's see, we had some information from a 

7 couple of years ago that different certifiers were 

8 looking at electrolyzed water or hypochlorous acid 

9 in different ways. So it went into our material 

10 review process within the National Organic 

11 Program, which is described in one of our policy 

12 memos. I can't remember the exact number, but 

13 there is a policy memo that describes that there 

14 is a discrepancy between certifying agents or 

15 material review organizations about whether a 

16 material is allowed or not, then we gather the 

17 information from the various organizations and 

18 make a determination.

19 In this particular case, I think it was 

20 in the summer of 2014, we issued a policy memo that 

21 said that electrolyzed water was not on the 

22 National List, and, therefore, was not allowed. 
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1 After the publication of that, we received a lot 

2 of additional information about electrolyzed 

3 water, the production of it and hypochlorous acid, 

4 and found that hypochlorous acid is the active 

5 ingredient in many of these chlorine materials. 

6 So once you put the sodium hypochlorite 

7 or calcium hypochlorite into a water solution, and 

8 that's the way that it's used in all applications, 

9 it dissociates into hypochlorous acid and some 

10 other things. Dr. Brines could certainly help me 

11 with the technical parts of this, but that's the 

12 basic concept is that hypochlorous acid is the 

13 active ingredient that is causing the sanitation 

14 effect.

15 So based on this additional information 

16 that we received, we issued a memo in late summer 

17 that clarified that hypochlorous acid, or this 

18 electrolyzed water, is a form of chlorine that is 

19 allowed under the existing listing. 

20 We are still asking for the Board 

21 to -- there is a petition for hypochlorous acid, 

22 so we still are asking for the Board to continue 
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1 the review of this, so that this can be more clearly 

2 clarified in the future. But that's I guess the 

3 background on electrolyzed water.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Clarification, 

5 Tom? So, then, can I just ask the Chair that after 

6 this vote the coversheet of the recommendation or 

7 proposal or whatever include this updated fact, 

8 that this would include electrolyzed water while 

9 we are reviewing the petition, as I understand it?

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. I will include 

11 along the lines of what we have written in the 

12 proposal, and I will read it just so everyone is 

13 aligned on this. 

14 "The Handling Subcommittee feels 

15 electrolyzed water and hypochlorous acid should be 

16 allowed under the current listing for chlorine 

17 materials, the National List. Electrolyzed water 

18 devices generate active ingredients that are 

19 equivalent to other chlorine materials on the 

20 National List.

21 "The Handling Subcommittee believes 

22 the National List could be clarified in this matter 
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1 and is reviewing a petition to explicitly add 

2 hypochlorous acid to the National List."

3 Any further discussion? I'm going 

4 to -- before I go to you, I am going to ask for one 

5 clarification of what I just read. 

6 Ashley, did you see any comments in the 

7 public comment this period about that statement on 

8 electrolyzed water or hypochlorous acid?

9 MEMBER SWAFFAR: I did not.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Colehour?

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Yeah. Thank you. I 

12 don't want to go on about this for very long, but 

13 I just want to say that, from my perspective, even 

14 though I understand well enough that there are 

15 requirements that chlorine materials do have to be 

16 used for certain circumstances and in certain ways 

17 and on certain things, that I have -- I think in 

18 the end I am going to end up voting against 

19 relisting, not because I think that it's not going 

20 to -- this isn't going to be relisted, but to point 

21 out the fact that this hasn't been, like we have 

22 already talked about, dealt with thoroughly 
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1 enough. 

2 And from the comments that were 

3 referred to, you know, there's cases where, you 

4 know, what is legally required isn't clear in the 

5 listing, and also, you know, what other materials 

6 could be used for the same effects, where it isn't 

7 legally required to be using chlorine in certain 

8 ways is also not there. And so I feel like there 

9 is a lot of question marks from my perspective, and 

10 I feel uncomfortable as an NOSB member, you know, 

11 just leaving the door open for whatever is being 

12 used, and whatever is wanted is fine because it all 

13 fits in this broader category. I think the broader 

14 category is nice, but it's not very specific or 

15 looked at very specifically. 

16 And I really -- I can't tell about this 

17 chicken and egg question in terms of, yeah, we are 

18 going to look at that in the future, but let's renew 

19 the sunset now, because we are -- we don't have any 

20 choice, like the NOP tells us.

21 And so it seems like it's this big 

22 spiral, and so I just -- I feel a little bit lost 
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1 with the process, but more so I feel like, you know, 

2 yeah, maybe in the future that will be done, but 

3 what are we doing now.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further comments? 

5 Harold?

6 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thanks, Tom. I think 

7 also we should point out that with the 

8 implementation of the FDA's Food Safety 

9 Modernization Act, that's going to impact all 

10 entities in agriculture, whether you're organic or 

11 conventional, handling, or produce. And we don't 

12 know how significant those impacts are going to be 

13 at this point.

14 So that is one of the other things where 

15 I think that is going to have to be part of our 

16 consideration down the road, too, the impact of 

17 that ruling and what that means to organic 

18 producers as well as organic handlers.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Further comments? 

20 Seeing no further discussion on this item, we will

21 move to a vote. The vote is on all the chlorine 

22 materials as a grouping. All those in favor of the 
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1 motion to remove chlorine materials -- calcium 

2 hypochlorite, chlorine dioxide, sodium 

3 hypochlorite -- raise their hand. All those 

4 opposed? Abstentions? 

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was two yes, 12 

6 no. The motion fails.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next is ethylene. 

8 Dr. Brines?

9 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The listing 

10 for ethylene is at Section 205.605(b) of the 

11 National List and reads as, "Ethylene allowed for 

12 post-harvest ripening of tropical fruit and 

13 degreening of citrus."

14 Thanks.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Lisa?

16 MEMBER de LIMA: So ethylene over both 

17 the comment periods the majority of comments were 

18 in favor of relisting with no change to the 

19 annotation. There was one public interest group 

20 that commented that they thought it should be 

21 removed, because they believe ethylene is not 

22 compatible with organics or essential. 
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1 The subcommittee voted unanimously to 

2 retain it on the list.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

4 discussion? Colehour?

5 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Yeah. 

6 One of my favorite topics. I really appreciate it. 

7 I think the only thing I want to say is continuous 

8 improvement -- and I'm just not sure that I see 

9 synthetic ethylene gas going off the list if we 

10 aren't seeking continuous improvement in a system 

11 that is dependent upon it.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

13 discussion? Seeing none, we will move to a vote. 

14 All those in favor of the motion to remove ethylene 

15 from the National List raise your hand. All those 

16 opposed? Abstentions?

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was three 

18 yes, 11 no. The motion fails.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the National 

20 List is ferrous sulfate. Dr. Brines?

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The listing 

22 for ferrous sulfate is at Section 205.605(b) of the 
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1 National List and reads as, "Ferrous sulfate for 

2 iron enrichment or fortification of foods when 

3 required by regulation or recommended independent 

4 organization."

5 Thank you.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Tracy?

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Ferrous sulfate 

8 provides iron needed to the body to produce red 

9 blood cells. It is used to treat or prevent iron 

10 deficiency anemia. 

11 Public comment was divided, was 

12 actually pretty limited, though, with some 

13 supporting ferrous sulfate remaining on the list 

14 while others spoke to the fact that ferrous sulfate 

15 should only be used in products that, by law, 

16 require fortification. 

17 One commenter suggested ferrous 

18 sulfate should be phased out or at least updated 

19 with the annotation for iron enrichment or 

20 fortification of foods when required by law. It 

21 was a unanimous decision in handling to retain the 

22 material on the National List.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

2 discussions? Lisa?

3 MEMBER de LIMA: I just want to ask that 

4 it get added for our discussion back in 

5 September -- the annotation.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So noted. 

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yeah. I couldn't 

8 hear you there.

9 MEMBER de LIMA: I just want to make 

10 sure that we were going to discuss the annotation 

11 possibility in subcommittee.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: An additional one 

13 besides what already says required by law?

14 MEMBER de LIMA: No. I was wrong, Zea. 

15 I missed that. Thank you.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Noted again. Jean?

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I mean, I don't 

18 know, I'm going to put you on the spot, Tracy. Did 

19 we ever look at this phrase where it says just -- it 

20 says "required by regulation," which is, you know, 

21 okay, so they have to do it, or recommend it, 

22 brackets, independent organization. Did you talk 
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1 about what the heck that meant?

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I actually did, 

3 luckily. There are -- and I don't have my notes 

4 here in front of me on the specific organizations, 

5 but there are certain organizations that make 

6 recommendations for added health benefits, but 

7 that are not raised to the level of regulation 

8 and -- but those same organizations are the ones 

9 that govern some of the other nutrients, vitamins, 

10 and minerals, and things like that that we are 

11 seeing in products.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So maybe Lisa is not 

13 so wrong in saying maybe we should look at this at 

14 least to give some thought to what that actually 

15 means, because there is certainly in the literature 

16 recommendations that -- for the use of ferrous 

17 sulfate in women of different ages, 

18 post-menopausal and otherwise, as to whether or not 

19 it should really be deemed required.

20 So I just really don't fully understand 

21 or recommend it. And I think that we should just 

22 kind of talk about it in the subcommittee. Whether 
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1 we put it on as a work agenda or not, I do think 

2 that we should think it through a little bit more. 

3 I mean, I'm going to vote to keep it on, obviously, 

4 but I just think that it's a little bit odd the way 

5 it's written, because it doesn't just limit it to 

6 required by law.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yeah. I'm actually 

9 supportive of looking at the recommended 

10 annotation, which is a little -- well, not a little 

11 more, it's potentially significantly more 

12 restrictive. And I do think it is substantially 

13 different than the current annotation, and we do 

14 need to discuss it.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I am going to go with 

16 Francis, and then Nick.

17 MEMBER THICKE: I would point out that 

18 there are a lot of advertising organizations that 

19 might be thinking they fit under here, too.

20 MEMBER MARAVELL: I was just going to 

21 ask for a little bit of history on this. This is 

22 I think a phrase that got in at sort of the very 
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1 beginning, and it was meant to apply to certain 

2 professional organizations composed of medical and 

3 dietician experts. But I'm real foggy on that. 

4 So is there any additional expertise on how that 

5 originally came about many years ago? 

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea?

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'll try, but I 

8 don't know exactly how helpful I'll be. The 

9 general category nutrient vitamins and minerals, 

10 which we will discuss in a little while, there was 

11 some discussion originally about specific 

12 organizations that might be accepted. 

13 But recognizing that the TAP review is 

14 limited and the NOSB didn't really know all these 

15 organizations, only certain examples were given in 

16 the discussion, but when it came time to codify the 

17 regulation, it was left somewhat vague.

18 Now, this didn't even end up in the 

19 nutrient vitamins and minerals listing on the 

20 National List, and this is where I get foggy. I'm 

21 not sure why it ended up here, but I do think ferrous 

22 sulfate might have been -- it would be included 
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1 under nutrient vitamins and minerals. 

2 So, in some sense, it is a duplicative 

3 listing, if that is there. But then it may have 

4 been approved afterwards with a different board 

5 composition or different discussion, so I don't 

6 remember the specifics of this exact one.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Emily?

8 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Yeah. My 

9 recollection is like Zea's. There was a -- it is 

10 a little bit duplicative. I'm not sure how -- why 

11 it ended up with this specific annotation in the 

12 regulation. But if you go back to the original 

13 documents from '95/'96, the nutrient vitamin and 

14 mineral one, they talk about also accessory 

15 nutrients, which is where all that language was 

16 mentioned. So I think it sort of got -- partially 

17 got translated into the regulation.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

19 further discussion? I do want to note that for the 

20 export of flour and bread to Canada, enrichment is 

21 a requirement period, and iron is one of those 

22 required enrichment materials. So removal of 
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1 ferrous sulfate may prevent the export of American 

2 bread products to Canada -- flour products.

3 Any further discussion? Seeing none, 

4 we will move to a vote. All those in favor of the 

5 motion to remove ferrous sulfate from the National 

6 List raise your hand. All those opposed? 

7 Abstentions?

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

9 yes, 14 no. The motion fails.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

11 glycerides, mono and di. Dr. Brines?

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

13 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

14 National List and reads as glycerides, mono and di, 

15 for use only in drum drying of food.

16 Thanks.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So this is one -- I 

19 don't really have a strong feeling on this one. We 

20 discussed it considerably in the Handling 

21 Subcommittee. It has extremely limited use. 

22 It's allowed only in the drum drying of food, not 
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1 extensively used. 

2 However, from the public comment that 

3 we have received from industry and those that use 

4 it, they find it to be of a high level of necessity 

5 for those areas such as potato -- mashed potato, 

6 that type of thing. They find that to be more 

7 useful to them than some of the alternatives, which 

8 include spray drying, freeze drying, fluidized bed 

9 dryers, or air lift dryers. And freeze drying can 

10 be sometimes acceptable to drum drying is what we 

11 are told, but the preferred mechanism is to use the 

12 glycerides.

13 There isn't a lot of evidence that 

14 suggests that it has unacceptable human health or 

15 environmental impact. Internationally, the 

16 glycerides, mono and diglycerides, are permitted 

17 on the Canadian permitted substances list as 

18 non-organic ingredients, classified as food 

19 additives, but there is -- with the additional 

20 annotation, again, for use only in drum drying of 

21 products.

22 And it says also organisms from genetic 
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1 engineering are excluded. "Documentation is 

2 required and shall be produced from an organic 

3 source unless not commercially available" is the 

4 international identification.

5 We obviously -- we have industry 

6 supporting retaining it. We don't have a large 

7 number of comments on it. We do have some of 

8 the -- our consumer groups recommending that it be 

9 removed as a potential for health problems, and 

10 also in regards that being a potential for 

11 alternative.

12 So, again, I don't have a super strong 

13 feeling on this. You kind of have to make up your 

14 own mind on it. The subcommittee, after 

15 considerable discussion and looking at all of the 

16 materials, did vote unanimously to keep it on the 

17 list.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

19 discussion on this item? Calvin?

20 MEMBER WALKER: Could you all share 

21 with me, what are some of the organic alternatives?

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The organic -- or 
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1 the alternative mechanisms, it's not -- they are 

2 not organic materials, they are mechanisms, such 

3 as you would spray dry the material, you would 

4 freeze dry the material, such as the potatoes. 

5 You'd have fluidized bed dryers or air lift dryers. 

6 You could freeze it. 

7 These are some of the alternatives 

8 which have been suggested, but not necessarily 

9 found to be as functionally the same as the drum 

10 drying mechanism using the glycerides.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: To follow up on that, 

12 Calvin, when you think of a freeze-dried product, 

13 it's like space food, and a drum-dried product is 

14 like the dried fruit you find a trail mix? 

15 MEMBER WALKER: Which is the most 

16 prevalent.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I mean, they have 

18 different applications, but, you know, those two 

19 substances are fairly different. They are both 

20 dried fruit products, but they are different.

21 Any further discussion on this item? 

22 Seeing none, we will move to a vote. All those in 
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1 favor of the motion to remove glycerides, mono and 

2 di, from the National List, raise your hand. All 

3 those opposed? 

4 The Chair is going to call for a roll 

5 vote on this, roll call vote. And we will start 

6 with Mac, since we missed Mac last time.

7 MEMBER STONE: No, sir.

8 MEMBER WALKER: I'm voting yes to 

9 remove.

10 MEMBER de LIMA: No.

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: No.

14 MEMBER SWAFFAR: No.

15 MEMBER BECK: No.

16 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

18 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

19 MEMBER AUSTIN: No.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: No.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: No.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Sorry, Zea.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: We had six yes, 

2 eight no. The motion fails.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: All right. Next on 

4 the National List is glycerin. Dr. Brines?

5 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

6 is at Section 205.605(b) of the National List and 

7 is listed as glycerin produced by hydrolysis of 

8 fats and oils.

9 Thanks.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. 

12 Glycerin. We've had lots of discussion on 

13 glycerin over the last few months, and so I probably 

14 won't go on too long with this one. We voted in 

15 subcommittee unanimously to retain it on the list.

16 However, because of all the additional 

17 discussion around the issue of glycerin, the 

18 Handling Committee is proposing to remove glycerin 

19 from 205.605(b) and put it on 606. And so we 

20 already have that on our work agenda, and we will 

21 be addressing that.

22 Let's see. The glycerin has been 
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1 indicated by industry to be critically essential. 

2 And I don't have notes here that tell me what the 

3 objections were to leaving it on this -- on the list 

4 at the present time. But, as I say, it will be 

5 moved to 606.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Point of information. 

7 We have already voted on that. It's not on the work 

8 agenda. It's actually with the program for 

9 rulemaking.

10 Any further discussion on this item? 

11 Tracy?

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I handled this for 

13 the proposal, Jean, and the only thing I would add 

14 is that the reason for suggesting for removal was 

15 to encourage more use of organic glycerin, putting 

16 it on 606 being a pathway to do that.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

18 discussion? Seeing none, we will move to a vote. 

19 All those in favor of the removal of glycerin from 

20 the National List raise your hand. All those 

21 opposed? Abstentions? Thank you, Harold.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 
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1 yes, 14 no. The motion fails.

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

3 hydrogen peroxide. Dr. Brines?

4 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Hydrogen 

5 peroxide appears on Section 205.605(b) on the 

6 National List as hydrogen peroxide. 

7 Thanks.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley?

9 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Hydrogen peroxide has 

10 many uses as a sanitizer. The majority of public 

11 comment was in support of relisting, and one 

12 commenter stated that its advantage is its 

13 non-toxic residue. The subcommittee unanimously 

14 felt hydrogen peroxide should be relisted.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

16 discussion? Seeing none, we will move to a vote. 

17 All those in favor of the motion to remove hydrogen 

18 peroxide from the National List raise your hand. 

19 All those opposed? Abstentions?

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

21 yes, 14 no. The motion fails.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 
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1 magnesium carbonate. Dr. Brines?

2 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

3 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

4 National List and reads as magnesium carbonate for 

5 use only in agricultural products labeled "Made 

6 with organic specified ingredients or food 

7 groups." Prohibited in agricultural products 

8 labeled "organic." Thanks.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Magnesium 

11 carbonate appears to be one of those materials that 

12 we could in fact remove from the National List. It 

13 is only in -- made with organic, not inorganic. It 

14 is specifically prohibited in organic, and 

15 oftentimes we sort of bypass things and just say, 

16 well, it is only in -- made with organics, so we'll 

17 leave it on. 

18 This would be one of the ones where I 

19 see that there is not only -- there does not appear 

20 to be any necessity based on the information that 

21 we have received from the public. But in addition 

22 to that, we have received several comments from the 
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1 public, from several different groups, public 

2 interest groups, recommending removal of this 

3 material in this second round of information that 

4 we have received.

5 One of the statements that we received 

6 from -- I think it was from one of the certifiers 

7 says that it is sometimes found as an additive in 

8 salt, but magnesium carbonate has been deemed to 

9 have a negative impact on label claims. So, and 

10 it was in subcommittee we did vote to -- unanimously 

11 to remove this from the list, and such would still 

12 be my recommendation based on all of the new public 

13 comment that we have received.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any discussion on 

15 this item? I would like to note that magnesium 

16 carbonate is an alternative flow agent to 

17 tricalcium phosphate for salt, but because of that 

18 label claim is not commonly used. But with its 

19 removal, and then our review -- you know, it makes 

20 the need for tricalcium phosphate higher.

21 Any further discussion on this item? 

22 Seeing none, we will move to a vote. Again, the 
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1 subcommittee here -- Jean, correct me if I'm 

2 wrong -- recommended removal unanimously? 

3 Correct.

4 So the motion to remove magnesium 

5 carbonate, all those in favor of the motion to 

6 remove magnesium carbonate raise your hand. All 

7 those opposed? Abstentions?

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was 14 yes, 

9 zero no, zero abstentions. The motion passes.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

11 magnesium chloride. Dr. Brines?

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

13 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

14 National List and reads as magnesium chloride 

15 derived from seawater.

16 Thanks.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Magnesium 

19 chloride. This is a little bit messy in some ways, 

20 inasmuch as it looks as though it really ought to 

21 be moved into 605(a) based on the public comment 

22 that we have received, not only during the first 
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1 comment period but also during the second comment 

2 period.

3 It is a material that is used as a 

4 processing aid, especially in firming up my 

5 favorite food product -- tofu. And the public 

6 generally appears to be agree that it should be 

7 reclassified as a non-synthetic and moved to 

8 605(a). 

9 So the Handling Committee will be 

10 working on this material following this meeting in 

11 order to recommend that it be reclassified as 

12 non-synthetic, and we may also -- it would be my 

13 suggestion that the work agenda also 

14 include -- that we consider an annotation, quote, 

15 "that it is used as a coagulant in making tofu," 

16 since that is the primary way -- think that it is 

17 used for, and it is apparently of a high level of 

18 necessity in American tofu manufacturing.

19 That's basically -- let's see. Yes. 

20 Several organizations and certifiers recommended 

21 an updated TR, and also that it be classified as 

22 non-synthetic. A large number of comments on 
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1 that.

2 So we -- I would suggest that what we 

3 do is we vote to keep it on the list this time, but 

4 that we work on it right away in the Handling 

5 Subcommittee, and that it go on our work agenda as 

6 soon as we can get that done.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jean. 

8 Any further discussion on this item? 

9 Seeing none, we will move to a vote. All those in 

10 favor of the motion to remove magnesium chloride 

11 from the National List raise your hand. All those 

12 opposed? Abstentions?

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was zero yes, 

14 14 no. The motion fails.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

16 magnesium stearate. Dr. Brines?

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

18 is included at Section 205.605(b) of the National 

19 List as magnesium stearate for use only in 

20 agricultural products labeled "Made with organic 

21 specified ingredients or food groups." 

22 Prohibited in agricultural products labeled 
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1 "organic."

2 Thanks.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Magnesium stearate 

5 only in -- made with specifically prohibited in 

6 agricultural products labeled organic. Again, 

7 this is one of those materials that I don't have 

8 a super strong feeling on in terms of whether it 

9 stays on the list or not. And we did receive a fair 

10 amount of comments on this, especially from the 

11 Food Additives Council, you know, IFAC, as well as 

12 several certifiers, explaining where it is being 

13 used.

14 Some organizations, the public 

15 interest groups sort of remain neutral on this, and 

16 one of the organizations stated that because it's 

17 in a "made with" category it is really not an issue 

18 in terms of impacting organic integrity.

19 The International Food Additive 

20 Council, however, sort of asked that into the 

21 record we sort of state the following. "While we 

22 appreciate that the Handling Subcommittee has 
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1 recommended the substance for relisting, the 

2 meeting materials" -- that's the ones that went out 

3 for the first or the second posting -- "still give 

4 the inaccurate impression that the substance was 

5 removed from Codex due to safety concerns." 

6 So that is not a correct statement. It 

7 was not removed from Codex due to safety concerns, 

8 but there was quite a bit of discussion in Codex, 

9 which is in the IFAC materials that they submitted 

10 to us, to go into sort of the -- you know, the 

11 minutia of the bureaucracy of how these things are 

12 worked on at the GSFSA level.

13 I further should comment that magnesium 

14 stearate is considered grass and was confirmed as 

15 such at the international level on the review 

16 panel. IFAC is not aware of any organic 

17 alternative to magnesium stearate, and they 

18 strongly encourage the NOSB to relist the material. 

19 Failure to relist would significantly impact and 

20 limit the range of organic supplements that 

21 are -- that remain in high demand amongst 

22 consumers.
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1 It is used typically, you know, as 

2 that -- as a flow agent, an anti-caking, in many 

3 of the nutrient supplements that you might buy in 

4 those jars, and so forth.

5 So it is sort of -- in subcommittee, the 

6 vote was unanimous to leave it on the list with the 

7 observation that because it's only made with 

8 ingredients -- only in made with products and not 

9 in organic -- labeled organic that it does not 

10 affect the integrity of the organic label.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jean. Any 

12 further discussion on this item? Seeing none, we 

13 will move to a vote. All those in favor of the 

14 removal of magnesium stearate from the National 

15 List raise your hand. All those opposed? 

16 Abstentions?

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Vote was one yes, 13 

18 no. Motion fails.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is 

20 nutrient vitamins and minerals. Dr. Brines?

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

22 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 
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1 National List as nutrient vitamins and minerals, 

2 in accordance with 21 CFR 104.20, nutritional 

3 quality guidelines for foods.

4 Thanks.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Zea?

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. This 

7 one may take a bit more time than some of the others, 

8 because it is quite a complex issue.

9 I am going to talk first in presenting 

10 the issue, and then I will wait for discussion to 

11 be called and talk about my discussion points in 

12 there.

13 Because this has such a long history 

14 that is a bit convoluted, we have summarized the 

15 history of this in the review. In 1995, the NOSB 

16 first added nutrient vitamins and minerals to the 

17 National List with the following annotation. 

18 "Accepted for use in organic foods for enrichment 

19 or fortification, when required by regulation or 

20 recommended by an independent professional 

21 organization."

22 As we already brought up, the text from 
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1 that meeting mentions one or two of those 

2 organizations, but the NOSB at the time did not have 

3 the resources to find out what those independent 

4 organizations might be and the scope of their 

5 recommendations.

6 So when the final rule was published in 

7 2000, it came out with the current annotation 

8 instead that referred to 21 CFR 104.20. It was 

9 recognized pretty early on that that was not really 

10 an accurate citation, and that the current listing 

11 should change, and was different -- that the 

12 listing was different than the NOSB 

13 recommendation.

14 So, in 2007, the NOP provided an 

15 interpretation of this regulation that mistakenly 

16 concluded that this 104.20 allowed a wide variety 

17 of nutrients that were not limited to just vitamins 

18 and minerals.

19 So, in 2010, the NOP met with FDA to 

20 clarify the meaning of this particular CFR listing, 

21 and they issued a memo to the NOSB in 2010 that 

22 explained the clarification. 
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1 Then, in 2012, they published a 

2 proposed rule with the intent to change the 

3 citation rule from 104.20 to 21 CFR 101.9, and for 

4 infant formula, 21 CFR 107.100 and 107.10.

5 They received a lot of comments on this 

6 and ended up going to final rule, but the final rule 

7 retracted from what the proposed rule said and went 

8 back to the original listing.

9 And, in the meantime, the NOSB had done 

10 a sunset review in which they proposed broadening 

11 the list even further, and they got so many comments 

12 on the listing -- the proposal out of committee that 

13 it was retracted before it got to the Board, and 

14 the existing annotation was allowed to keep in 

15 sunset.

16 So the Handling Subcommittee 

17 now -- well, as a result of the proposed rule, made 

18 it clear that what is known as accessory nutrients 

19 had to be petitioned. Many of these were 

20 petitioned, and in 2012 and 2013 this Board did take 

21 up those petitions, and many of those were not 

22 recommended to be allowed. A few of them were, but 
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1 many were turned down. The ones that are turned 

2 down are still in commerce, because no action has 

3 been taken on those NOSB recommendations. 

4 So, in 2014, the Handling Committee 

5 commissioned a new technical report, and this was 

6 completed in February 2015. It is very useful 

7 because it clarifies a lot about which substances 

8 are actually required by law and for what purposes, 

9 as well as characterizing all of the different 

10 vitamins and minerals and addressing the OFPA 

11 criteria about them. So it is clear that this 

12 listing somehow needs to change.

13 We, on the Handling Committee, have 

14 worked on a discussion document to -- that may come 

15 forward at the next meeting, with several options 

16 of ways to change it, including limiting those that 

17 are only required by law, limiting the whole 

18 category to made with organic ingredients groups 

19 only, putting -- what we found from the TR is that 

20 some of these are non-synthetic actually and really 

21 should be on 605(a) and not 605(b). And so part 

22 of the annotation change might have to be to add 
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1 some to 605(a).

2 And the Committee was not in agreement 

3 about a proposal at this time, which is why we 

4 decided to move forward with a discussion document. 

5 However, that discussion document was not accepted 

6 for this meeting by the NOP because the agenda is 

7 so full at this time.

8 Well, I don't want to reiterate all of 

9 the OFPA criteria, but, in general, the 

10 alternatives to the nutrient vitamins and minerals 

11 that are added is for people to get their vitamins 

12 and minerals from food and/or to choose extra 

13 supplements rather than having food that has these 

14 supplements in it.

15 There are non-synthetic supplements 

16 such as yeast and other nutritive herbs and things 

17 that can provide some vitamin minerals. And we do 

18 understand and have taken into consideration that 

19 soils have been depleted on time -- over time and 

20 even with organic management may be far more -- less 

21 rich in vitamins and minerals than they were, say, 

22 50 years ago or in the past.
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1 We took a look at the ancillary 

2 substances, but realized that there are so many of 

3 them, particularly in the vitamins, that we are not 

4 prepared to bring forward an ancillary substance 

5 proposal at this time. Once we work out the ones 

6 on the table, then we will proceed to bring forth 

7 some of the other materials that -- for ancillary 

8 substances.

9 And I will stop there for the discussion 

10 portion.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you, Zea. 

12 Miles?

13 MR. McEVOY: Yes. Just a point of 

14 clarification. The chronology that you talked 

15 about was very complete and accurate, except for 

16 there was no final rule that was issued. It was 

17 an interim rule that was issued in September of 

18 2012, which means that the proposed rule that came 

19 out in January of 2012 is still on the table. We 

20 never finished the rulemaking.

21 Now, the reason why we issued an interim 

22 rule is because, basically, we ran out of time 
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1 because of the sunset date that was occurring in 

2 2012. So what the interim rule did was continue 

3 the listing as listed, but that proposed rule is 

4 still on the table and still under consideration 

5 for final rule action by AMS.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any discussion? I 

7 will start with Nick, then Jean.

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yeah. Just a quick 

9 follow up. For those of us who don't quite get into 

10 the minutia of rulemaking, what is the distinction 

11 between an interim rule and having a proposed rule 

12 pending at the same time? And is there terminology 

13 called an interim final rule as well?

14 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. I think this 

15 is -- maybe this is an interim final rule. But what 

16 it does is it is effective, but it does not take 

17 the proposed rule off the table. 

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea, do you have a 

19 clarification?

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: This is a question 

21 for Miles. And so what, then, is the status of the 

22 petitioned infant formula items like lucene and 
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1 lycopene and all of that at this time?

2 MR. McEVOY: Well, those petitions 

3 that were recommended for addition to the National 

4 List, like DHA and ARA, we have not initiated 

5 rulemaking on those, to add those to the National 

6 List. Those petitions that were not recommended 

7 for addition to the National List of course we will 

8 not engage in rulemaking to -- on those items, 

9 because they were not recommended for addition to 

10 the National List.

11 So AMS's work is to finalize the rule, 

12 based on the proposed rule that was issued in 

13 January of 2012. We have not completed that work.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: But I guess I mean, 

15 what about those things that were not voted to be 

16 added to the National List but are still in 

17 commerce?

18 MR. McEVOY: Right. We are not taking 

19 rulemaking action to add those to the National 

20 List.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: How about getting 

22 them out of commerce?
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1 MR. McEVOY: The interim final rule is 

2 the rule that is in effect, which has the same 

3 citation as previously to the 21 CFR 104.20. So 

4 there was no change in terms of the allowances of 

5 these substances. So we have to complete that 

6 rulemaking.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Nick, is it a follow 

8 up to this?

9 MEMBER MARAVELL: And just to complete 

10 this discussion, so that an interim final rule does 

11 not ever expire or need to be changed until it is 

12 superseded. Is that correct?

13 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. That's my 

14 understanding.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Zea, some of the 

17 public comments suggested that we, instead of 

18 having a blanket group like this, that we look at 

19 each of them separately. In terms of the research 

20 that you did in putting together this extensive 

21 analysis that you did for these, how do you feel 

22 about that? It sort of seems to make sense to me.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. I will 

2 launch into my personal opinion on this discussion. 

3 I'm going to quote first. "Some folks trust to 

4 reason; others trust to might. I don't trust to 

5 nothing, but I will hope it comes out right."

6 I believe that this is going to be an 

7 unsolvable problem from our Board at this point. 

8 I am going to try my best -- if this is retained 

9 in the sunset process, I am committed to working 

10 on a discussion document to lead to a proposed 

11 annotation change. 

12 My personal opinion is to go back to the 

13 original NOSB recommendation and leave it only to 

14 those required by law, which is the infant formula 

15 section, and it's Vitamin A and Vitamin D in milk, 

16 and very few others. Iron, as Tom mentioned, for 

17 enrichment claims, and very few others, which we 

18 do finally have access to some of that in the TR. 

19 And require that everything else be petitioned. 

20 Supplemental to that, I do think -- you 

21 know, I personally think this is what the made with 

22 organic category was created for, that consumers 
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1 should be able to choose if they want their food 

2 fortified with synthetics or not. And if it's made 

3 with organic, then they can assume -- you know, they 

4 can have confidence in all of the organic portions, 

5 and then knowingly choose the synthetic vitamins.

6 I did not hear support for that from the 

7 consumer groups, but if we put that out in a 

8 discussion document we may hear some people in 

9 support of that.

10 I do think that our previous actions are 

11 being stonewalled. I do not blame Miles or Emily 

12 or anyone in the NOP. I think it is coming from 

13 corporate pressure from higher up in the USDA. I 

14 have no evidence of this -- after all, I am a 

15 scientist -- but I know mumbo-jumbo when I hear it.

16 And, therefore, I am going to vote 

17 against renewing this at sunset and try to 

18 take -- try to encourage those people who need to 

19 petition for Vitamin A and D, and the like. And 

20 I'm sorry, Kelly and Beth and Albert, but try to 

21 accelerate those petitions as much as possible, 

22 because I can almost guarantee from past experience 
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1 that if we do vote this off, it's not going to end 

2 up off by 2017, just like sodium nitrate still isn't 

3 off.

4 And so I think there will be time to 

5 create the petition and to get it through for those 

6 things that really need to be and are required by 

7 law.

8 So that is my full opinion at the 

9 moment.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next, I have 

11 Colehour.

12 MEMBER BONDERA: Yeah. I haven't been 

13 involved in these detailed discussions. Frankly, 

14 I am not on the Handling Subcommittee, but I just 

15 want to say that I concur with what I just heard 

16 Zea say, because my biggest concern and question 

17 from reviewing this information has been -- I 

18 hesitate I guess where the -- essentiality isn't 

19 exactly the right word, but, you know, which things 

20 are necessary and in what ways and how these are 

21 all grouped together.

22 But after what Miles said, after this 
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1 discussion here, it's even more clear to me that, 

2 you know, yeah, we approve -- we renew some sunset, 

3 and then it sits there for five more years being 

4 allowed, and the other stuff that we are doing, as 

5 a committee, may or may not get acted upon and, like 

6 Zea said, may or may not be, because NOP or NOP staff 

7 isn't taking action, but it may be blocked other 

8 ways.

9 And so, from my perspective, the action 

10 that is appropriate is to delist, and alternatives 

11 of process do exist, so I just wanted to say I am 

12 right there. We are together. 

13 Thank you.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Remember my opening 

16 comments? I said that we are going to balancing 

17 the hardships here, and sort of an issue of equity 

18 almost in what we're looking at, because I would 

19 like to point out to everybody that the Voting 

20 Subcommittee was in fact unanimous to leave it on 

21 the list. 

22 And so the message that we sent out to 
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1 the trade and industry and users of these materials 

2 was that despite the -- and I should be sure 

3 everyone understands we spent a lot of time on this 

4 in the Handling Subcommittee, and it is not simple. 

5 As Zea said, it's very complicated. 

6 But certainly in terms of the public 

7 getting adequate information, they will have been 

8 assuming that we were probably not going to take 

9 the step of removing, and yet based on the public 

10 comment that has come in since then, and further 

11 analysis, it is certainly -- several of us will be 

12 voting to remove.

13 So just a cautionary statement.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Nick?

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. Thank you, 

16 Zea, for giving us that background and your 

17 personal opinion. I just want to continue on with 

18 the process a little bit more, because I, too, 

19 intend to vote to delist.

20 However, I would like to get some 

21 understanding from the program that a 

22 recommendation, fully approved by the full Board 
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1 to delist at sunset, would have what legal -- and 

2 a mandatory impact, if any, on the decision of the 

3 Secretary.

4 MR. McEVOY: Sure. When the NOSB 

5 makes a recommendation to remove a substance from 

6 the National List, then we have to go through 

7 rulemaking to implement that. So the first step 

8 is to develop the proposed rule to propose that the 

9 substance comes off the National List, and that 

10 would be followed by opportunity for public 

11 comment, and then the issuance of a final rule.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Could the Secretary 

13 decide not to follow the advice of the NOSB and 

14 issue a proposed rule to delist?

15 MR. McEVOY: Right. The Secretary 

16 could decide not to issue a proposed rule based on 

17 the recommendation.

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: Thank you.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: I do just want to 

21 clarify to those not on the Handling Committee that 

22 many of the things under this category are on the 
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1 National List individually already. So ascorbic 

2 acid, tocopherol, ferrous sulfate, there are a 

3 number of calcium minerals, many of these things 

4 are already on the National List. So if we voted 

5 down -- you know, the key ones that need to be 

6 petitioned are Vitamins A and D in milk and -- or, 

7 I don't know, A is in fruit juice I think.

8 But the infant formula ones, which 

9 could possibly come in as a group, or we could also, 

10 within the NOSB, try for an annotation change 

11 specific to infant formula one.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay. So I am going 

13 to speak, and then I have I guess Jean, Harold, and 

14 Tracy.

15 So I have a question for those who are 

16 thinking of delisting this item. Have they 

17 thought through the impacts this would have if 

18 manufacturers who use -- organic manufacturers who 

19 use vitamin supplementation choose to then drop 

20 organic and what size of impact that would have on 

21 the organic industry as a whole and the farmers that 

22 supply those products?
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1 I'll leave you guys to percolate on that 

2 question as I go to the next. Jean?

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I was kind of going 

4 to ask that question. Zea, could we 

5 accomplish -- again, I am sitting here worried 

6 about this, the fact that we voted unanimously to 

7 leave it on the list. And so the message that we 

8 have sent out there so far is that we are not going 

9 to remove it. 

10 So I'm struggling here to say, could we 

11 accomplish the same thing by working on it right 

12 away in the subcommittee in terms of the necessary 

13 annotations?

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: First of all, Jean, 

15 you didn't bring this up when we were talking about 

16 seaweed and fish for the Crops Committee, which 

17 were unanimous out of committee and people wanted 

18 to remove them at the spur of the moment.

19 But, yes, I am committed to working on 

20 it, if it stays on the list. But I do feel that 

21 there is a certain amount of stonewalling of it 

22 going on. And that might happen, whether we take 
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1 it off or try to leave it on and fix it, but I'll 

2 work on it either way for the rest of my term. But 

3 I bet you it is not fixed by the end of my term.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Harold?

5 MEMBER AUSTIN: As one of the two 

6 handlers sitting on the Board, I am going to be in 

7 support of the continued listing of this class for 

8 the time being. We have had lengthy discussions 

9 about this I think ever since we got onto the Board, 

10 Zea. 

11 And I think Jean puts forth a valid 

12 point that the motion coming out of the 

13 subcommittee was unanimously in support of it. I 

14 think we are going to catch the producers and 

15 manufacturers off guard, those handlers that have 

16 been using this classification, these materials, 

17 and I think that would be a huge disservice to throw 

18 them this type of a curveball or blindside at this 

19 juncture. 

20 I think part of the solution is to 

21 continue and to move forward working on the 

22 discussion document and finding a course of action 
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1 that we can take this and carry it through, 

2 hopefully before our group retires next fall. 

3 It is a complicated issue, but it is one 

4 that has been going on for a while. And I think 

5 if we move to delist at this point in time, we are 

6 doing a big disservice with all of the energy and 

7 efforts that have already been put into it up to 

8 this point.

9 So I'm going to be in support to 

10 continue to keep them on the list at this time.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy?

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Actually, I agree 

13 with the comments that have been made by Jean and 

14 Harold and others. Just an observation. Has 

15 anybody else noticed that the squirrelly listings 

16 of groups of materials were the ones that caused 

17 problems, like inerts and sapients and vitamins and 

18 minerals and things like that?

19 I am actually in favor of individual 

20 listings. However, just like with ethylene, 

21 we've got producers that are relying on this. And 

22 whether they are big producers or small producers, 
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1 the basic tenet for me is the same. It is -- I think 

2 it's unfair to jerk the rug out from underneath 

3 without some clear indication about what we intend 

4 to do.

5 I personally will vote in favor of 

6 continued listing, but I definitely want to see an 

7 annotation to limit it to those required by federal 

8 regulations, and then encourage petitions for the 

9 individual materials.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So I am going to go to 

11 Miles, and then Nick.

12 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. Just to add a 

13 little bit more to AMS's plans around rulemaking 

14 on this. So when we issued the proposed rule in 

15 2012, we got a substantial amount of comments. 

16 This is a significant rulemaking action, because 

17 it has a lot of impact on all of the operations that 

18 are utilizing nutrient vitamins and minerals in 

19 their products currently.

20 And then, because of the number of 

21 comments, we did not finish the final rule before 

22 the sunset date and had to go to the interim rule, 
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1 which also we received a number of comments on that 

2 as well.

3 Subsequent to that, there are a number 

4 of recommendations that came in from the NOSB on 

5 these types of products on an individual basis. 

6 And so incorporating that into a final rule, both 

7 the new recommendations and the old proposal, is 

8 a substantial amount of work.

9 What we have done is, in the interim 

10 timeframe, is focused on some other rulemaking 

11 actions. So for next year there is a number of 

12 things from older NOSB recommendations on 

13 aquaculture, agriculture, pet food, animal 

14 welfare. I think that's the plan is to have those 

15 things very well -- long origin of livestock as 

16 well.

17 But we do have these outstanding 

18 actions on nutrient vitamins and minerals, as well 

19 as sodium nitrate that we also need to get to. They 

20 are not on the immediate work plan for the National 

21 Organic Program because of these other rulemaking 

22 priorities, but we are certainly going to take that 
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1 on as soon as we have the -- as soon as these other 

2 rulemaking actions move forward. These are the 

3 next in line for action by the Department.

4 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yeah. Just to 

5 continue the process along a little bit more here, 

6 given that an action to delist voted on by the full 

7 Board is advisory and not mandatory for the 

8 Secretary, and given that the Secretary has 

9 discretion here and could phase in any changes that 

10 would be subsequent to another proposed 

11 rulemaking, I think you could take the sentiment 

12 of the Board, which is nobody here wants to disrupt 

13 the strain of commerce or pull the rug out from 

14 anybody, and we never have.

15 What we are looking for is, you know, 

16 to provide some very specific -- more specific 

17 guidance. As Tracy was saying, we run into these 

18 problems when we just say, "Ah, yeah. There's a 

19 whole group out there of things." And so we are 

20 just doing our due diligence and trying to correct 

21 things.

22 So I would respectfully ask that we be 
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1 allowed, if we do vote to delist this, or whether 

2 we don't vote to delist this as a decisive action, 

3 that we perhaps would want to pass a resolution to 

4 state that we -- you know, this is an effort to 

5 correct the situation that needs to correcting, as 

6 Zea has so eloquently pointed out. And we have no 

7 intention whatsoever of pulling the rug out from 

8 anybody, and that any changes must be deliberate 

9 and phased in, so as to minimize any market 

10 disruption.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I'll go with Mac, then 

12 Zea.

13 MEMBER STONE: Well, I'm not willing to 

14 play chicken with the Secretary. I feel like we 

15 should keep -- if we keep the ball in our court, 

16 then we're in control of the conversation and 

17 making a better decision over time of how to dissect 

18 this conversation into a workable plan.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yeah. I don't know 

20 about playing chicken with the Secretary, because 

21 I don't think he pays attention to us on a daily 

22 basis. But I do consider my vote a protest vote 
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1 for the 20 years of the Secretary ignoring the NOSB 

2 recommendations.

3 And realizing that it will not probably 

4 change things, and there will be enough time for 

5 everyone to come into compliance and for the 

6 necessary things to be petitioned and 

7 individualized, but if we don't start now to make 

8 our intentions and desires clear to the Secretary, 

9 then it will be another five years.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

11 discussion on this item? As a handling company 

12 that utilizes these materials, two years would not 

13 be a sufficient amount of time for us to change a 

14 product. A plan change for us is a minimum of 18 

15 months. And I do fear the impact this would have 

16 on the organic community, if companies like mine 

17 came to the conclusion that we would not be 

18 competitive without use of these products.

19 We are a large purchaser of organic 

20 products, and the effects that has on the 

21 marketplace when someone exits it is fairly 

22 dramatic, as has happened with dairy companies who 
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1 have chosen to go natural. And that effects real 

2 lives, so keep that in mind as you consider this 

3 vote.

4 Any further discussion? Jean?

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I am sort of 

6 persuaded that we ought to do what the general 

7 consensus looks like it's headed towards, which is 

8 that we should really be working on it in 

9 subcommittee, and that we may have the best option 

10 to write something which is crisp and clear, 

11 clearer than perhaps some of the rulemaking. 

12 And given the fact that we have not 

13 really indicated to the manufacturers out there 

14 that we were likely to take this off the list, 

15 although, as we all know, it takes a long time for 

16 anything to happen in D.C., that we ought to leave 

17 it on the list and be working on it in subcommittee 

18 rather than all of us protesting what we really feel 

19 we want to do.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

21 discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote on 

22 the item.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Request a roll call 

2 vote.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. So we will move 

4 to a roll call vote. I believe we will start with 

5 Lisa in this case. And the motion is to remove 

6 nutrient vitamins and minerals. A yes vote is to 

7 remove; a no vote is to remain.

8 MEMBER de LIMA: No.

9 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: No. 

12 MEMBER SWAFFAR: No.

13 MEMBER BECK: No.

14 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

16 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

17 MEMBER AUSTIN: No.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

19 MEMBER STONE: No, sir.

20 MEMBER WALKER: Yes.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: No.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was six 
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1 yes, eight no. The motion fails.

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

3 ozone. Dr. Brines?

4 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The listing 

5 for ozone is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

6 National List and reads as ozone.

7 Thanks.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Ashley?

9 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Ozone is used for a 

10 disinfectant in post-harvest treatment for 

11 produce. Almost all comments came in in support 

12 for relisting of ozone, stating that ozone is an 

13 important tool for sanitation, and the 

14 subcommittee unanimously felt that ozone should be 

15 relisted.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

17 discussion on ozone? Hearing no discussion on 

18 ozone, we will proceed to a vote. All those in 

19 favor of the motion to remove ozone from the 

20 National List, raise your hand. All those 

21 opposed? Abstain? The Chair notes the absence of 

22 Colehour.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jennifer, I didn't 

2 see your vote.

3 MEMBER TAYLOR: I will vote to keep it.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Could you state 

5 your vote out loud, Jennifer, so folks can hear?

6 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes. I would vote to 

7 have it remain on the list.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jennifer voted to 

9 have it remain on the list.

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: We had zero yes, 13 

11 no, one absent. The motion fails.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

13 phosphoric acid. Dr. Brines?

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

15 is included at Section 205.605(b) of the National 

16 List and reads as phosphoric acid, cleaning of food 

17 contact surfaces and equipment only.

18 Thanks.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley?

20 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Phosphoric acid is 

21 used for cleaning food contact surfaces, and 

22 several commenters stated that phosphoric acid is 
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1 critical in our food safety program. There was one 

2 commenter that had concern that phosphoric acid 

3 could pose environmental concerns, but stated 

4 because its use is slightly different from other 

5 materials, there may not be a more compatible 

6 substance on the list, and they encourage us to seek 

7 safer alternatives.

8 The subcommittee unanimously felt 

9 phosphoric acid should be relisted.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

11 discussion of this item? Seeing none, we will 

12 proceed to a vote. All those in favor of the motion 

13 to remove phosphoric acid from the National List 

14 raise your hand. All those opposed? 

15 Abstentions?

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jennifer, I didn't 

17 see your vote.

18 MEMBER TAYLOR: I'm sorry. I voted to 

19 have it removed.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: She voted yes.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: You did?

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jennifer Taylor voted 
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1 to remove, and the Chair notes Colehour is absent.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. We had one 

3 yes, 12 no, one absent. The motion fails.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. I think 

5 Tom would just keep going, but I am going to cut 

6 him off now, now that he is on a roll. 

7 I'd like to take a break now for lunch 

8 of 75 minutes. If you'd come back -- what does that 

9 bring us to? 1:00. 1:30. See, I can't do math 

10 anymore. 1:30 back to start again. 1:30.

11 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

12 went off the record at 12:13 p.m. and resumed at 

13 1:46 p.m.)

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, 

15 everybody. We can get started. We will be able 

16 to continue on with the Handling Subcommittee, 

17 their presentations on the handling materials.

18 And I will, at this point, first ask for 

19 some clarifications on conflict of interest from 

20 Dr. Brines that came up following a statement that 

21 Tom made this morning and ask for that 

22 clarification from Dr. Brines on the record, 
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1 please.

2 DR. BRINES: Sure. Thank you. So 

3 there was -- the question was whether a user of 

4 material that is on the National List would have 

5 a conflict of interest in discussing their voting 

6 on that particular material. 

7 And as the Board members are appointed 

8 as representatives, being a user of the material 

9 on the National List does not present a conflict 

10 of interest. If, however, a member were a producer 

11 of one of the materials on the National List and 

12 had a stake about whether that material was listed 

13 or delisted, that would constitute a conflict of 

14 interest, but using a material on the National List 

15 is not a conflict of interest.

16 Thank you.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you, Lisa. I 

18 will turn the meeting now over to the Chair of the 

19 Handling Subcommittee, Tom Chapman.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. And I am 

21 just going to read my conflict of interest 

22 statement that I provided to the Board, as well as 
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1 the program. 

2 There are materials on the October 2015 

3 NOSB meeting agenda that are in use or have been 

4 considered for use in Clif Bar & Company's supply 

5 chain. Clif Bar & Company is not a seller, 

6 exclusive buyer, nor do any of these materials 

7 directly or disproportionately benefit me or a 

8 person associated with me.

9 They do not impair my objectivity in 

10 representing handlers, nor do they have the 

11 potential to create an unfair competitive 

12 advantage. And so they do not mount to a conflict 

13 of interest per the 2013 NOP memo on conflict of 

14 interest.

15 Thank you.

16 And I'm acknowledging that Harold 

17 Austin is also part of the meeting. 

18 And with that, we will return to the 

19 agenda. And I believe the first material we have 

20 is potassium acid tartrate. Dr. Brines?

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This material 

22 is included at Section 205.605(b) of the National 
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1 List as potassium acid tartrate.

2 Thank you.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. This 

5 material is a byproduct of the wine-making 

6 industry. It is used in baked goods. There is 

7 general broad support for this material. It is one 

8 of those sort of cream of tartar type materials. 

9 Some of us might use it in our kitchens, although 

10 I actually don't.

11 But, anyway, it is strongly supported 

12 to be retained on the list as a leveling agent, 

13 considered to be necessary, or I think they use the 

14 word essential but necessary for many businesses. 

15 A number of certifying entities, agencies, like the 

16 CCOF, stated that they had a number of users that 

17 use this material in their production. 

18 Fetzer Wines indicate that it is 

19 necessary for wine production, and without out you 

20 would get tartrate crystals in the wine. That 

21 would not be a good thing. 

22 Beyond Pesticides stated that we 
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1 should -- the Handling Subcommittee should 

2 consider reclassifying this material as a 

3 non-synthetic and move it to 605(a). And so this 

4 will be one of the items that we will -- that I would 

5 request that the Chair of the Handling Subcommittee 

6 puts this on our agenda to look at and consider when 

7 we go into our next session of working after this 

8 meeting.

9 The Voting Subcommittee was unanimous 

10 to keep this material on the National List, and I 

11 haven't seen any evidence coming into us in the last 

12 comment period to suggest anything other than 

13 putting it on the list.

14 Thank you.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

16 discussion on this item? Seeing none, we will move 

17 to a vote. All those in favor of the motion to 

18 remove potassium acid tartrate raise your hand. 

19 All those opposed? Abstaining? 

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was zero yes, 

21 14 no. The motion fails.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 
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1 potassium carbonate. Dr. Brines?

2 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The listing 

3 for potassium carbonate on the National List is at 

4 205.605(b), and it is listed as potassium 

5 carbonate.

6 Thank you.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Potassium 

9 carbonate -- this material is used in the Dutch 

10 alkali process for processing cocoa and chocolate 

11 to reduce acidity, and in soft drinks and 

12 confections, and is a buffering agent in making 

13 wine and mead. And, as I noted in my earlier 

14 comments, it is used to tenderize tripe. My Dad 

15 used to love that.

16 We received some, but not a lot, of 

17 public comment. A number of both certifiers and 

18 producers stated that they have no alternatives. 

19 I have -- I count three or four of those. And, 

20 alternatively, Beyond Pesticides suggested that it 

21 may not be an essential material, although based 

22 on the input that we had from producers who are 
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1 using it it does seem to be used.

2 In subcommittee, we had a unanimous 

3 vote to leave it on the National List, and I don't 

4 see any particular reason to take it off at this 

5 point.

6 Thank you.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

8 discussion on this item? Seeing none, we will move 

9 to a vote. All those in favor of the removal of 

10 potassium carbonate from the National List raise 

11 your hand. All those opposed? Abstentions?

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was one yes, 13 

13 no. The motion fails.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

15 potassium citrate. Dr. Brines?

16 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

17 substance is listed at Section 205.605(b) of the 

18 National List as potassium citrate.

19 Thank you. 

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Potassium citrate 

22 is an alkaline salt manufactured by adding 
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1 potassium bicarbonate and potassium carbonate to 

2 citric acid, so it's an alkaline salt used as a pH 

3 adjuster primarily. 

4 It should be noted that this material, 

5 potassium citrate, can be used to replace some of 

6 the phosphates in processing. And so over time 

7 this perhaps may be more critical to us, inasmuch 

8 as we are looking at phosphates with a bit of a fine 

9 attention to detail over potential health effects.

10 The public comment broadly supported 

11 keeping this material on the list from both OTA and 

12 the consumer groups, and there was no strong 

13 indication that this should be removed from the 

14 list. The Voting Subcommittee was a unanimous 

15 vote to keep this material on the list, and I have 

16 seen nothing in public comment coming in that would 

17 suggest that we should do other than leave it on 

18 the list at this time.

19 Thank you.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

21 discussion? Seeing none, we will move to a vote 

22 on this item. All those in favor of the motion to 
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1 remove potassium citrate from the National List 

2 raise your hand. All those opposed? 

3 Abstentions?

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was one 

5 yes, 13 no. The motion fails.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

7 potassium phosphate. Dr. Brines?

8 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

9 substance is included at Section 205.605(e) of the 

10 National List as potassium phosphate for use only 

11 in agricultural products labeled "Made with 

12 organic specified ingredients or food groups." 

13 Prohibited in agricultural products labeled 

14 "organic."

15 Thank you.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Potassium 

18 phosphate -- this is one of the phosphates that 

19 Harold and I have spent a lot of time looking at 

20 over the last few months. I won't repeat all of 

21 the comments that Harold Austin made earlier over 

22 calcium phosphate, but many of the comments that 
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1 he made and read into the record apply also to the 

2 potassium, and then subsequently to the sodium 

3 phosphate that I will be looking at later on.

4 The potassium phosphate is only on the 

5 list for made with organic, and it is prohibited 

6 in agricultural products labeled "organic." So, 

7 therefore, it does not necessarily directly impact 

8 the organic label. It does -- it may, however, 

9 have some potential health effects as we have 

10 discussed at some length already today, and others 

11 may wish to comment on this in a minute or two.

12 I should note that it is -- has been 

13 determined to be grass, that it is used as an 

14 efficient pH buffering to many products, and it 

15 also provides some potassium and phosphorous to the 

16 product, both of which are materials that the body 

17 needs.

18 Several of the industry people have 

19 commented that there are no organic alternative 

20 substitutes or practices that would make these 

21 substances unnecessary.

22 One of our consumer groups states the 
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1 following. "The NOSB should seek to eliminate the 

2 use of inorganic phosphates in organic food. If 

3 it's not totally possible to eliminate them, the 

4 listing should be annotated to eliminate uses 

5 prohibited by 205.600(b)(4)."

6 As you know, we are requesting -- we 

7 have requested a technical report, which we should 

8 have in a few weeks' time, and that will enable us 

9 to evaluate this and all of the other phosphates 

10 as a group in order to determine if any further 

11 annotations or petitions might be needed.

12 Again, though, I do comment that it is 

13 in the "made with" category. There are some of the 

14 businesses that told us that without this you would 

15 get an impaired mouth feel for some of the foods 

16 that are presently on the market as processed 

17 foods, and they would prefer to see it listed on 

18 the list.

19 I don't have a strong feeling for this 

20 one, obviously, because it's only in the "made 

21 with" category. And as you can see from -- if you 

22 have looked at our subcommittee vote, it as a 
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1 scattered vote. Three said yes, remove; two said 

2 no, don't remove; and one abstained; and one was 

3 absent. So it is one of those ones for which 

4 discussion and perhaps a roll call vote may be 

5 needed.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you.

7 MEMBER de LIMA: So, in subcommittee, 

8 I had originally voted to remove, and this was 

9 before we decided in subcommittee that we were 

10 going to ask for a TR and look into reevaluating 

11 all of the phosphates as a group.

12 So I'm going to switch my vote to retain 

13 it, so that we can look at everything at once and 

14 make sure we can annotate properly.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I have a question for 

16 Jean. The commenter who referenced Section 

17 600 -- 205.600(b), did they make mention to the use 

18 of this material as a processing aid or adjuvant?

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

21 discussion? Colehour?

22 MEMBER BONDERA: Yeah. I'm sorry. 
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1 Jean -- and I apologize if you already said it -- but 

2 was there public opposition to the relisting that 

3 I missed when you presented?

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. It's one of 

5 the phosphates.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

7 discussion? Seeing none, we will move to a vote 

8 on this item. All those in favor of the motion to 

9 remove potassium phosphate from the National List 

10 raise your hand. All those opposed? Any 

11 abstentions?

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. The vote I 

13 had was two yes, nine no, three abstentions. The 

14 motion fails.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. The next 

16 item is sodium citrate. Dr. Brines?

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

18 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

19 National List and is listed as sodium citrate.

20 Thanks.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Sodium citrate? 

22 Ashley?
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1 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Sodium citrate is 

2 used as an emulsifier in dairy products to keep fats 

3 from separating, and in cheese-making where it 

4 allows to melt without becoming greasy.

5 All public comments received was in 

6 support for the relisting of sodium citrate, 

7 stating there is not any -- there are no other 

8 alternatives, and it is essential.

9 The subcommittee unanimously felt 

10 sodium citrate should be relisted.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

12 discussion on this item? Seeing none, we will move 

13 to a vote. All those in favor of removing sodium 

14 citrate from the National List raise your hand. 

15 All those opposed? Abstentions?

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

17 yes, 14 no. The motion fails.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I failed to note that 

19 we just passed the halfway point with this group.

20 Next item is sodium hydroxide. Dr. 

21 Brines?

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Sodium 
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1 hydroxide is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

2 National List and reads as sodium hydroxide 

3 prohibited for use in live peeling of fruits and 

4 vegetables.

5 Thank you.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Sodium 

8 hydroxide -- specifically prohibited, please note 

9 that for live peeling of fruits and vegetables. It 

10 is a caustic material. It is used as a processing 

11 aid that is particularly important in pH 

12 adjustments to the production of pretzels and 

13 chocolate. 

14 It is often also used as a cleaning 

15 agent, but it is documented that it has to be 

16 followed by a rinse, if it is going to be used for 

17 that use. It has quite a broad range of uses, and 

18 we -- and it can also be used in making -- the hominy 

19 corn maize kernels being reconstituted to make 

20 grits.

21 We have not received anything that 

22 really would suggest us taking this from the list. 
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1 We do know that it is broadly used. We didn't get 

2 a lot of comment on this. And the subcommittee 

3 vote was to keep it on the list by unanimous vote 

4 at that time, and I can't see a specific reason, 

5 or based on anything that has come into us, why we 

6 should not just leave it on the list at this time.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

8 discussion? Seeing none, we will move to a vote. 

9 All those in favor of the motion to remove sodium 

10 hydroxide raise your hand. All those opposed? 

11 Abstaining?

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was zero 

13 yes, 13 no, one abstention. The motion fails.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

15 the sodium phosphate. Dr. Brines?

16 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

17 substance is included at Section 205.605(b) of the 

18 National List as sodium phosphates for use only in 

19 dairy foods.

20 Thanks.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Sodium 
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1 phosphates -- again, another one of this phosphate 

2 group that, as you know, we are going to be taking 

3 back to subcommittee. And we have the technical 

4 report that we are going to be reviewing.

5 And just in response to some of the 

6 questions that I received sort of in the last few 

7 hours from people who have provided us with 

8 comment, the clarification on that technical 

9 report, we have asked specific questions, very 

10 directed and focused, based on the public input and 

11 public comment that we received after the first set 

12 of public comment on this material over the summer.

13 So the TR is going to be -- is 

14 being -- the folks writing it are supposed to be 

15 specifically answering these directed questions. 

16 So it's not just like a general, what do you think 

17 of phosphates, guys? It's very -- it's focused on 

18 what it is that we're looking for from a human 

19 health point of view.

20 We received this study on phosphates 

21 for use only in dairy food, and we did receive a 

22 considerable amount of public comment on these 
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1 materials. Let's see. This is -- we received 

2 suggestions to remove from a number of the consumer 

3 groups. Quite a lot of it is based on the human 

4 health aspects. 

5 And one of the human health aspects from 

6 sodium phosphates specifically is one that comes 

7 from an older TR that it says the toxicity of sodium 

8 phosphates is generally related to sequestration 

9 of calcium and subsequent reduction of ionized 

10 calcium. And that is one of the sets of questions 

11 that we are going to try to clarify in the TR that 

12 we have asked for.

13 A number of industrial uses of this 

14 material in processed foods are as follows. It is 

15 essential in making processed organic cheeses. 

16 Another company says it is essential in the 

17 production of yogurt smoothies, inasmuch as the 

18 sodium phosphate ionizes in solution which helps 

19 prevent excessive protein -- protein interactions, 

20 protein-to-protein interactions in the base that 

21 would result in curd formation and helps to keep 

22 this an edible product for the consumer.
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1 Without this material, this product may 

2 have to be discontinued. This same processor goes 

3 on to say, "We are glad the subcommittee has taken 

4 the steps of commissioning a technical review to 

5 better understand the potential health effects of 

6 cumulative phosphate intake that might result when 

7 people eat multiple products containing sodium 

8 phosphate and other phosphates as additives."

9 In response to the subcommittee's 

10 question, this company states -- we asked, 

11 remember, if it was on the -- is it on the ingredient 

12 panel or does the consumer have any idea of knowing 

13 it there. This consumer stated that sodium 

14 phosphate is listed on the ingredient panel of the 

15 product.

16 Okay. Let's see. We have received 

17 other comment from producers saying sodium 

18 phosphates work as emulsifiers to provide smooth 

19 texture and also stabilizes the proteins and 

20 prevents separation of oil in certain kinds of 

21 cheese powders.

22 There is not a suitable alternative to 
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1 this material. And so, therefore, there is a 

2 strong industry request that this material at this 

3 time stays on the National List.

4 In subcommittee, our vote was one 

5 person voted to remove, four voted to keep it on 

6 the list, and one abstained.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jean. 

8 Any further discussion on this item? 

9 Colehour?

10 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. I guess I 

11 just want to put in the record the fact that I am 

12 going to be voting against the relisting of this 

13 item, and I think it goes along, like Jean said 

14 before, on these phosphates, because I personally 

15 think, based on my experience and observation, that 

16 this process that we are -- we, the NOSB, are going 

17 through and not being able to review items and 

18 annotate and have the information before 

19 relisting, I think is baroque and cumbersome and 

20 dysfunctional. 

21 And I think that I need to file a protest 

22 vote, and then that would -- for that reason, I will 
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1 be voting against it, even though I understand the 

2 needs that Jean just explained.

3 Thank you.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Just a 

6 clarification. On the annotation, while I 

7 appreciate Colehour's perspective, and I think 

8 that I thought the same way not so long ago, but 

9 I have come to realize that what happens is that 

10 if we sit at this meeting and come up with a 

11 brilliant annotation, as we certainly could 

12 sitting around this table, based on what we now know 

13 after today's meeting, however, if we did that 

14 annotation right now and attached that to the 

15 sunset document right now, which is the way we used 

16 to do it, the broader publics that are not here 

17 present at this meeting today would not know what 

18 we were doing. And, therefore, we would have 

19 failed in our duty to be transparent.

20 And so I actually think that what we are 

21 doing by saying we are going to take it back to 

22 subcommittee and come back and send out yet 
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1 again -- out to the public further potential 

2 changes or not, as it may be, allows a broader range 

3 of transparency to a broader range of the public, 

4 to give us yet more public comment.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Nick?

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: What we used to do 

7 when I joined the Board is we would come up with 

8 annotations on the second day, and we would go out 

9 on the third day, and sometimes the fourth and the 

10 fifth, for more public comment.

11 And I believe in those early days we 

12 were also trying to stream this. We had a camera 

13 and all of the proceedings and everything we did, 

14 including the screen with proposed new language, 

15 was on the internet. And we would try to be very 

16 responsive to the public, and, indeed, as we have 

17 seen here, sometimes -- for example, the issue of 

18 ethylene -- we totally changed the committee 

19 recommendation right here.

20 Well, we were able to do that in the past 

21 during the meeting with public input. So I think 

22 there are multiple ways to go about this. The way 
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1 you have described is one way, but we used to do 

2 it differently.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Colehour?

4 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. And thank 

5 you, Nick, for your comment. I think in response 

6 to what you said, Jean, I don't disagree either. 

7 I think that, like you said, that's one way to do 

8 it. I do think that, you know, the 

9 conceptualization of having two sessions for 

10 hearing a sunset item could and should be ample 

11 time, in my opinion.

12 And I know there is always reasons why 

13 it's not -- to have requested, have received a TR, 

14 have prepared an annotation, have gone through that 

15 process, including with sufficient public input. 

16 And, frankly, if for some reason it's 

17 not, which I could understand that as well, then 

18 I think that administratively there needs to be 

19 something in place so that these things could be 

20 postponed to a third meeting, which has been 

21 eliminated. And so there isn't that option or 

22 opportunity in terms of us not voting on these 
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1 sunset items and incorporating that.

2 And so I just am saying that the process 

3 is -- from my perspective, like you said, maybe it 

4 can be figured out, but it doesn't settle very 

5 smoothly.

6 Thank you.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Miles?

8 MR. McEVOY: Yeah. Just a point of 

9 clarification. There were a couple of meetings 

10 where we did do live streaming of the meeting. I 

11 think we did that twice. But there was no way for 

12 the folks that were seeing the meeting through live 

13 streaming to actually provide public comment.

14 So, but that was done at a few meetings. 

15 The cost of that was very high, and actually not 

16 very many people, in terms of the usage data, were 

17 actually looking at the live streaming. So for 

18 that reason, we stopped doing that. 

19 But now we are actually looking at maybe 

20 doing that again, in terms of the live streaming 

21 component, because the cost of that has come down 

22 significantly. So --
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Nick, then Colehour.

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: No. There was no 

3 interactivity, and I didn't mean to imply that. 

4 However, we all have these cell phones. And if 

5 something went out over the screen, people in the 

6 audience would hear from the field. So, I mean, 

7 there was an imperfect but not transparent way to 

8 get some feedback.

9 And perhaps we were operating more in 

10 the, what should I say, the old days when things 

11 happened in the room so to speak. But I'm just 

12 saying that there are other ways to do it, and I'm 

13 glad to hear that you are considering opening this 

14 up, so that people can see it live. I think that 

15 would be great.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Colehour?

17 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you, and thank 

18 you for entertaining this process. I apologize 

19 for taking up extra time.

20 However, I do think what Jennifer

21 Taylor presented to us earlier is worth bringing 

22 back up again, because when I was Chair of Policy 
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1 Development Subcommittee we did -- and I'm not 

2 quoting exactly, but it has been a good two and a 

3 half years. So it isn't last week or anything. 

4 We did make a fully supported 

5 recommendation that the whole NOSB voted for to 

6 have an open docket, so that there was public input 

7 possible all the time, so we weren't waiting for 

8 some three-week window in some theoretical future. 

9 And I really encourage the NOP to really 

10 put out the energy to make it so that that open 

11 docket, so that the public can be providing input 

12 to things in a more continuous manner, is more 

13 accessible. So I will repeat that, because I think 

14 that could directly affect these kind of processes 

15 as well.

16 Thank you.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further comments? 

18 I would like to say while there may have been 

19 advantages to past processes, these materials all 

20 got listed somehow via some of these past processes 

21 that we are now having the difficult time of trying 

22 to work out now. So there are shortcomings and 
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1 advantages to every meeting process.

2 Any further discussion? Seeing none, 

3 we will move to a vote on this item. All those in 

4 favor of removing sodium phosphates from the 

5 National List raise your hand. All those opposed? 

6 All those abstaining?

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. I have a vote 

8 of two yes, 11 no, one abstention. The motion 

9 fails.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

11 sulfur dioxide. Dr. Brines?

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

13 is included at Section 205.605(b) of the National 

14 List as sulfur dioxide, for use only in wine labeled 

15 "made with organic grapes," provided that total 

16 sulfite concentration does not exceed 100 parts per 

17 million.

18 Thanks.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Sulfur dioxide is 

20 used in wine labeled with "made with organic 

21 grapes." Limited public comment was received, 

22 most noting that the substance was critical for 
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1 certain wine producers. Others noted that since 

2 it was limited to the "made with organic" category 

3 it did not threaten the organic integrity. 

4 Substance meets OFPA criteria and its limited use.

5 Any further discussion on this item? 

6 Seeing none, we will move to a vote. All those in 

7 favor of removing sulfur dioxide from the National 

8 List raise your hand. All those opposed? Those 

9 abstaining?

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Calvin, I didn't see 

11 you. What did you do? I had zero yes, 14 no, no 

12 abstentions. The motion fails.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

14 tocopherols. Dr. Brines?

15 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

16 is included at Section 205.605(b) of the National 

17 List and reads as tocopherols derived from 

18 vegetable oil when rosemary extracts are not a 

19 suitable alternative.

20 Thank you.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy?

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Tocopherols 
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1 are used as antioxidants in feed, animal feed and 

2 foods, and are manufactured in liquid and powder 

3 forms. Commonly extracted from distillates of 

4 vegetable oils. 

5 Public comment was divided on the 

6 relisting of tocopherols, with some comments 

7 staying that the material's primary use as a 

8 preservative was, therefore, inconsistent with 

9 organic production. According to one commenter, 

10 synthetic tocopherols are less bioavailable than 

11 natural versions.

12 Additionally, some commenters asserted 

13 that non-synthetic tocopherols are commercially 

14 available and should be used instead of synthetic. 

15 However, the majority of comments were strongly in 

16 favor of relisting, saying that tocopherols are 

17 critically essential to maintaining food safety, 

18 preventing rancidity, and providing nutrients to 

19 their products.

20 Some comments stated the use of 

21 rosemary oil, which is a potential alternative, 

22 imparted off flavors or fragrances to their 
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1 products that were not acceptable to consumers.

2 Some comments addressed the issue of 

3 ancillary substances and stated that due to the 

4 myriad formulations required for some technical 

5 and functional effects they would not be in favor 

6 of restrictions on ancillary substances used in 

7 tocopherol formulations.

8 And I just want to add, we did receive 

9 some feedback in regards to the question of -- given 

10 the feedback on the commercial availability of 

11 non-synthetic tocopherols, the Handling 

12 Subcommittee sought input on how reclassification 

13 of tocopherols to 205 -- from 205(b) to 205(a) would 

14 impact organic growers.

15 One commenter warned of the 

16 inconsistent supply of non-synthetic tocopherols 

17 and urged the Board to leave the current listing.

18 The vote in committee was unanimous to 

19 retain the listing on the National List.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

21 discussion on this item? Zea?

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. This is 
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1 one that we are going to take up a reclassification 

2 and a suggestion after this meeting, after 

3 sunset -- at least one commenter pointed out that 

4 tocopherols could be used -- you know, there are 

5 some applications and uses and supplies of 

6 non-synthetic tocopherols, but there 

7 was -- because it's not even on the list as a 

8 non-synthetic, it's not clear that non-synthetic 

9 can be even used.

10 And there are one or two other items 

11 where this is the case, too, where we have all just 

12 assumed all along that if it's on the synthetic list 

13 you could use a non-synthetic form, if you could 

14 find it. Carbon dioxide is another one like this.

15 So I think we may be wanting to 

16 entertain whether we should put it on both 605(a) 

17 and 605(b) and specify a different use on -- you 

18 know, because my impression from the public 

19 comments is for certain things there seems to be 

20 enough supply, but for other uses there isn't. 

21 And so I think that's something we need 

22 to at least look at. I'm not saying I have decided 
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1 or that we should, but something we should at least 

2 look at whether it's appropriate for both lists.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further comments? 

4 Tracy?

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I actually agree 

6 with the idea of putting it in both places, because 

7 we could potentially be putting some producers in 

8 a pickle if they have a technical or functional 

9 effect that they can't get from a natural. 

10 And so the idea of having it clearly on 

11 both places would sort of avoid some of these issues 

12 like we have been having today. I mean, the 

13 vitamins are another example that we talked about 

14 earlier. So I would support having it in both 

15 places.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

17 discussion? Colehour?

18 MEMBER BONDERA: I mean, I hesitate, 

19 but just to follow up with what Zea and Tracy said, 

20 were those requests to the subcommittee to add it 

21 to the work agenda of the subcommittee? And was 

22 that approved, or were those just comments and that 
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1 might or might not happen? I'm sorry. The 

2 process wasn't that clear.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea?

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: We have already 

5 brought this up to the Department and the Executive 

6 Committee, that -- and not about us double listing, 

7 but an annotation change or a classification change 

8 for our future work plans.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: It is already on the 

10 agenda. Yes. Colehour?

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. I hereby 

12 request that the double listing be added to the work 

13 plan as well of the subcommittee.

14 Thank you.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: We will consider it 

16 part of the same substance. I think it was added 

17 to the work plan as reclassification, and so that 

18 would include classifying it twice or classifying 

19 it just once.

20 Any further discussion? Seeing none, 

21 we will move to a vote. All those in favor of the 

22 motion to remove tocopherols from the National List 
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1 raise your hand. All those opposed? Any 

2 abstentions?

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is four 

4 yes, nine no, one abstention. The motion fails. 

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Next on 

6 the list is xanthan gum. Dr. Brines?

7 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This is the 

8 final material under consideration for Section 

9 205.605(b) of the National List, and the listing 

10 is xanthan gum. 

11 Thank you.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea?

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes. And you will 

14 have to excuse my somewhat gasping from air, but 

15 I'm having an allergic reaction from lunch, 

16 probably due to lecithin and not tocopherols.

17 Okay. Xanthan gum is a polysaccharide 

18 derived from microorganisms through fermentation. 

19 It is used as a thickener and stabilizer. We have 

20 received information that it is non-synthetic and 

21 that it is produced similar to gel and gum, and we 

22 have had some public commenters disclose a 
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1 manufacturing process that might lead us to think 

2 it's non-synthetic.

3 We have decided to send this out for a 

4 TR on the question of manufacturing before we take 

5 a vote on this for reclassification. So it is on 

6 our future work plan, after we look at the results 

7 of the TR.

8 Information was brought up about 

9 potential harm to premature infants, citing 

10 several linked articles after the first posting. 

11 I did look these all up, and it seemed to be one 

12 specific incident that happened in a plant that 

13 made a product containing xanthan gum, one of 

14 several plants that the company used in one 

15 product.

16 It seemed very inconclusive from all 

17 the reports I could find on the internet whether 

18 the problem came from xanthan gum or from other 

19 ingredients or from outside contamination of this 

20 one factory. And as we have been told since then 

21 from the public comment that came in from this 

22 meeting, this company reached an agreement with the 
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1 investigating authorities that is sealed, and so 

2 we can't find out what the reason is.

3 But there was no reason for me to 

4 conclude that it actually came from the xanthan 

5 gum, in general, rather than a specific 

6 contamination issue of a batch or a plant or 

7 something.

8 And there is also no replication of this 

9 type of concern, other than this one incident. So 

10 the only ancillary substance identified for 

11 xanthan gum is guar gum, which is already on the 

12 National List.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

14 discussion? Jean?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I think this is one 

16 I didn't do enough homework on. Zea, can you 

17 remind me why this is necessary.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes. It is used 

19 particularly in low temperatures where heating is 

20 not involved, because it keeps things in suspension 

21 at low temperatures, and that it is used in lesser 

22 quantities than the other gums, which allow the 
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1 products to comply with the 95 percent organic 

2 rule.

3 So, in other words, one of the reasons 

4 we are seeing more organic guar and organic locust 

5 bean gum, and things reformulated to include those 

6 instead of xanthan, is because you need quite a bit 

7 of it, and then it would bump them over the five 

8 percent. Whereas, this can be used in lower 

9 quantities.

10 MEMBER BONDERA: I guess it's a follow 

11 up to that. I'm not sure, because my question was 

12 regarding essentiality. And I can't tell if your 

13 comment, Zea, answers that it's essential in cases 

14 where the producer doesn't want to make a certain 

15 volume or something.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. You know, 

17 essentiality is a very subjective determination. 

18 And so I will say what I said before, several times 

19 I think, if you don't mind runny salad dressing, 

20 then, no, it's not essential. But if you want your 

21 salad dressing to stay thick on the store shelves, 

22 then, yes, it is essential. If you don't like that 
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1 it's in it, make your own salad dressing. 

2 So, but for a product that is thick and 

3 in suspension and looks like salad dressing on the 

4 store shelves, most manufacturers would consider 

5 it essential.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

7 discussion?

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: And that's an 

9 oversimplification. I'm aware of that. But that 

10 is the best example I can give.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I would like to note 

12 that this is already on our work agenda for 

13 reclassification.

14 Seeing no further discussion, we will 

15 move to a vote on this item. All those in favor 

16 of the motion to remove xanthan gum from the 

17 National List raise your hand. All those opposed? 

18 Sorry. Back to those -- start over, so she can get 

19 it. All those opposed to the list?

20 All right. I'm going to start over 

21 from scratch, just to make sure it's clear. Sorry, 

22 everyone.
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1 The motion is to remove xanthan gum from 

2 the National List. All those in favor of removing 

3 xanthan gum raise your hand. All those opposed? 

4 Any abstentions?

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was five yes, 

6 eight no, one abstention. The motion fails.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. I 

8 apologize for that. I just really want to have 

9 Jean buy us all drinks, if we get done by 4:00.

10 Okay. Moving on, that concludes 

11 205.605(b), and we will start with 205.606. 

12 Harold?

13 MEMBER AUSTIN: Hey, Tom, before we 

14 move on, point of clarification.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes.

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: Back on potassium acid 

17 tartrate, I believe Tracy read into the record that 

18 the motion passed, rather than failed. So I just 

19 wanted to make that clarification.

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Thank you.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy, can you reread 

22 the vote on that one?
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes. The vote was 

2 zero yes, 14 no. The motion failed.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay. Let the record 

4 reflect that that is the official vote.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Harold.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Moving on, so next is 

7 205.606. Dr. Brines?

8 DR. BRINES: We are moving on to 606, 

9 non-organically produced agricultural products 

10 allowed as ingredients in or on processed products 

11 labeled as organic, (a) casings from processed 

12 intestines.

13 Thank you.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Before we start on 

16 the casings per se, I'm sorry to put you on the spot, 

17 Emily, but there may be some people in the room that 

18 don't really know the history of how these 606s got 

19 onto the list, and I would appreciate if you could 

20 help remind us in roughly what year 606s came onto 

21 the list. And if at that time when they were being 

22 put onto the list, did they consider the OFPA 
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1 criteria?

2 MS. BROWN ROSEN: The 606 -- well, the 

3 606 materials were all mostly added I think -- well, 

4 the original ones were all added in 2007 after there 

5 was the determination from the Harvey lawsuit that 

6 it did not include specific agricultural 

7 ingredients and they needed to be individually 

8 listed.

9 As far as OFPA criteria, I can't really 

10 say -- I mean, the Board did their -- I think, you 

11 know, it was the first time it was done. I believe 

12 that's what they considered when they -- they 

13 looked mainly at commercial availability and, you 

14 know, necessity. But I believe that they 

15 considered all the criteria. I'll have to look back 

16 at that.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Clarification. 

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes, Zea.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: There were four on 

20 the -- for 606s on the list when it first came out, 

21 maybe five. They were gums, kelp, lecithin, and 

22 pectin. The others were added after 
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1 Harvey -- well, no, the shellac was added before 

2 Harvey, but I think the rest of them were added 

3 after.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Does that answer your 

5 question, Jean?

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. If I can, 

7 then, go on to casings. I'm the lead person on

8 that. Casings are used -- they are processed 

9 intestines. Did we read that? Yes, we did.

10 They are processed intestines from both 

11 organic and non-organic animals, and one of the 

12 reasons why it's a challenge to remove this from 

13 the list at the present time is that at the moment 

14 when you do -- when you go to slaughterhouses, for 

15 any of you who, like myself, have done a number of 

16 slaughterhouse inspections, the intestines are not 

17 separated between organic and non-organic 

18 slaughter stock at the time of slaughter. They all 

19 go into one large vat typically, and are then 

20 subsequently processed at a later point.

21 And at the moment, even though we think 

22 there is an awful lot of organic animals out there, 
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1 there are really not a large number of organic 

2 animals out there relative to the non-organic 

3 animals that are being slaughtered. And so, 

4 without this separation, it means that there is in 

5 fact no availability of intestines that come from 

6 only organic animals.

7 And so the availability just isn't 

8 there commercially. And the use of putting the 

9 sausage meat into casings is a critically important 

10 component of being able to utilize the whole 

11 animal, as we have heard in testimony both at this 

12 meeting and in written testimony that has come in.

13 There is some suggestion that you could 

14 use synthetic collagen, for example. That was one 

15 of the comments that came in. And it's sort of 

16 interesting because some of the certifying 

17 agencies prohibit the use of collagen casings 

18 unless it's obviously peelable. And some entities 

19 suggest that you have collagen casings, so there 

20 is a little bit of a debate out there as to how we 

21 should deal with casings.

22 But all of those producers that are 
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1 generating organic meats that need to be turned 

2 into sausage or the equivalent, all find that 

3 processed intestines are in fact a necessity. 

4 Everyone would like there to be organic ones, and 

5 certainly, again, this is something that we can 

6 encourage from our records here today, sort of how 

7 to begin the process of separating when they have 

8 large numbers of organic animals coming in.

9 These intestines are washed in pure 

10 water with no chemicals and salted in straight salt 

11 and water, no other ingredients. No other 

12 processing aids are used. And so while it is true, 

13 yes, these are from a mix of organic and non-organic 

14 animals, I believe that the most reasonable thing 

15 is to leave casings on the National List.

16 And the vote reflects that in our 

17 subcommittee vote we had six persons voted to keep 

18 them on the list, one person abstained.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

20 discussion on this item? Miles?

21 MR. McEVOY: I think we have something. 

22 Lisa?
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1 DR. BRINES: Just a quick I guess 

2 question for Jean. You had mentioned the 

3 alternative synthetic collagen and divergent 

4 opinions among certifiers on these for that 

5 substance. I wasn't clear if that was what you had 

6 meant.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. One 

8 certifier said that they prohibited collagen 

9 casings. Another one said that they would suggest 

10 that we had an annotation to include collagen 

11 casings. 

12 DR. BRINES: Okay. I think we'll look 

13 into those comments. We want to make sure to 

14 ensure consistency among certifiers evaluating 

15 materials for the National List.

16 Thank you.

17 MR. McEVOY: A little slow this 

18 afternoon after lunch. But the question about 

19 what happened in 2007 with the 606 materials. 

20 Prior to the addition of the many materials to 606, 

21 the 606 list was an open-ended list, sort of like 

22 the commercial availability for seeds, where there 
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1 is hundreds of varieties of seeds that can be used 

2 in non-organic form, if organic seeds are not 

3 available. That was the case before 2007 in the 

4 Harvey lawsuit.

5 So there were a few materials on 606, 

6 but the practice by certifiers prior to 2007 was

7 that any agricultural ingredient could be 

8 determined to be not available in organic form and 

9 used in the process for organic food before 2007. 

10 So when the list was expanded in 2007, 

11 it actually was an incredible restriction in terms 

12 of the numbers of materials that could be used in 

13 non-organic form, because there are hundreds, if 

14 not thousands, of agricultural ingredients that 

15 are not on 606, and by the action taken in 2007 were 

16 no longer able to be used in processed organic 

17 foods.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

19 further discussion on this item? I had a question 

20 for Nick as a meat processor. I believe you 

21 mentioned in public comment that you have sausages. 

22 I was curious to know if your attempts to find 
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1 organic casings and what is your opinion of the 

2 market, or how the market could be encouraged.

3 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right. I have, you 

4 know, have been in touch with a few processors. I 

5 am not in touch with any organic processors, 

6 because there is not an organic beef processor in 

7 my state. The ones I have been in touch with out 

8 of state do not have access to an organic product 

9 for casings.

10 And what Jean says has been my 

11 experience because I go and I visit the slaughter 

12 floor to make sure everything is just lumped 

13 together.

14 Now, in my case, we use a small 

15 processor, and they usually on any given day, all 

16 they'll do is process our beef. So, in that case, 

17 they would be getting organic intestines. But 

18 they save them up, and the truck just comes once 

19 a week, and so the next day they are processing 

20 somebody else's and they all go into the bucket. 

21 And then it just goes all into the truck, and then 

22 whatever they do with it from the truck.
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1 So I would love -- well, the truth of 

2 the matter is, I can only speak from my experience 

3 in my state, and maybe a few of the surrounding 

4 states. There is just not enough organic beef, 

5 and, you know, I could sell much, much more organic 

6 beef. The demand is there, but the production is 

7 not there. So that's anecdotal.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

9 further discussion on this item? Jean?

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Just a 

11 clarification. There is no source that I could 

12 find in any of my research of any organic casings 

13 anywhere in the world.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

15 further discussion? Seeing none, we will move to 

16 a vote on this item. All those in favor of removing 

17 casings from the National List raise your hand. 

18 All those opposed? Abstentions?

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was zero yes, 

20 14 no. The motion fails.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

22 celery powder. Dr. Brines?
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1 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

2 is included at Section 205.606 of the National List 

3 as, b) celery powder. 

4 Thanks.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Celery 

6 powder is used in a variety of processed meats, such 

7 as hotdogs, bacon, ham, corned beef, pastrami, 

8 pepperoni, and salami, to provide cured meat 

9 attributes without using prohibited nitrate 

10 products. I use the parentheses around "cured" 

11 because products must still be labeled "uncured" 

12 due to other regulations.

13 Celery powder is manufactured from 

14 celery which is cleaned, macerated, physically 

15 separated, and the liquid is concentrated by 

16 evaporation, heated, and vacuum dried, but no other 

17 chemicals or preserving agents are used in the 

18 manufacturing process. And celery powder is 

19 typically standardized to a specific nitrate 

20 content.

21 Current attempts to find a suitable 

22 organic version have not yet been successful from 
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1 the industry, and no comments were received from 

2 industry or manufacturers of celery powder that 

3 they carried this product in an organic form. 

4 Several ranchers, meat processing 

5 companies, trade associations, certifiers, and an 

6 ingredient processor wrote in in support of 

7 continued listing. Comments were received from 

8 interest groups in opposition stating that the 

9 product was a vehicle for synthetic nitrates and 

10 that nitrates pose human health concerns, but did 

11 not present any new evidence about celery powder 

12 or nitrate content therein.

13 One retailer noted organic celery 

14 powder was commercially available but did not 

15 provide any sources. Other comments were 

16 received, neutral in nature, but raising similar 

17 concerns, including one mentioning a Guardian 

18 article published on October 26th that speaks to 

19 an IARC finding that links consumption of processed 

20 meats to cancer.

21 However, the IARC report is general to 

22 processed meats and does not distinguish between 
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1 type, pure, organic versus non-organic, or other 

2 attributes, and does not mention celery powder.

3 There has been one point of unity in 

4 this throughout the community, and that is the 

5 calling to find an organic alternative to 

6 conventional celery powder and that this is a 

7 priority. While the Handling Committee did not 

8 add this as a research priority in time for this 

9 meeting agenda, we have heard the community loud 

10 and clear, and we will be asking, or at least I will 

11 be asking, the Administrator to add this to the 

12 list, given the unanimous request from the organic 

13 community. 

14 The Handling Subcommittee recommends 

15 celery powder remain on the National List, given 

16 the unavailability of functional organic version 

17 or alternatives, low usage level, and its necessity 

18 in the manufacturing of traditionally cured meat 

19 products. This material satisfies the OFPA 

20 evaluation criteria.

21 And we will open this up for discussion. 

22 Colehour, then Zea. Zea first.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. I couldn't 

2 quite understand one of the last comments you made, 

3 but was it that the Handling Committee should 

4 discuss putting it in our research priorities for 

5 the future, to research celery powder?

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. And I made 

7 that --

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: -- as a personal 

10 request to the Administrator.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: I very much support 

12 that, and particularly perhaps growing organic 

13 celery with a lot of sodium nitrate, since that is 

14 still allowed, might get them there. 

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Maybe in a hydroponic 

16 situation.

17 (Laughter.)

18 Colehour?

19 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Yeah. I 

20 guess part of my comment or question was going to 

21 be to ask you to either repeat or expand upon what 

22 the goals of the research would be for, in terms 
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1 of, frankly, if the research identified ways to 

2 produce organic celery that did meet the necessary 

3 criteria, then what? 

4 What happens with that research or what 

5 are the results? Or, therefore, we're going to 

6 hope that people are going to start doing it, and 

7 the demand will be there to not use something that 

8 is already on the list, or that it would be delisted 

9 five years from now because of availability? Or 

10 I just want to hear that -- the next step of the 

11 thinking that you were referring to.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The goal would be to 

13 find an organic alternative to the conventional one 

14 currently in usage. The demand is clearly there, 

15 since there is such a high usage of celery powder 

16 in organic and cured meats. And so it would be to 

17 replace that conventional product.

18 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. I mean, it 

19 makes sense, I guess as a follow up -- and we don't 

20 need to revisit it -- I wonder, especially -- not 

21 specifically, but, you know, Nick's anecdotal 

22 evidence regarding the casing discussion. And 
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1 like Jean said, the organic meat is happening, and 

2 the casings are there, but they are getting 

3 combined with non-organic and not getting 

4 separated. 

5 I'm not sure it's true in the celery 

6 powder case, but I'm just wondering if we are going 

7 to switch out of what is happening. You know, some 

8 of those things that need to happen are -- I guess 

9 I'm bringing up that example, because that one 

10 already exists to some degree, like Nick described, 

11 but the industry isn't implementing that 

12 separation of the organic casings versus the 

13 non-organic casings, even though it already does 

14 exist. You can't argue that it doesn't exist, 

15 because, you know, the organic meat is processed.

16 And so I'm just trying to mesh together, 

17 okay, will it really happen, even though it's 

18 happening, is the reason I'm bringing it up in the 

19 celery powder example. And so I'm just wondering 

20 this through out loud. Thank you.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. I'm going to 

22 respond to that, and then I'll go to Zea. In the 
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1 case of Nick's operation of casings, actually, I 

2 don't think organic casings exist, organic 

3 intestines exist. They are not being captured or 

4 made into organic casings. And from reading your 

5 website, I don't think your processor is certified 

6 as organic either, so as they get --

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: No, he's not. My 

8 processor is not certified. As I said, we don't 

9 have --

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. So as they get 

11 slaughtered, they lose that status probably, or as 

12 they get processed they lose that status.

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: Absolutely.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So that's one thing. 

15 On the other end, so your issue there is the 

16 intestines exist and they are not get turned into 

17 casings. Here, the celery in the form that we need 

18 it does not exist, and that's what the research 

19 would be to find.

20 Zea, then Tracy, then Ashley.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: I mean, the 

22 research also -- I was somewhat joking about the 
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1 celery -- was sodium nitrate, because there may be 

2 other alternative crops that are high in nitrate, 

3 or alternatives to nitrate high things that could 

4 cure. 

5 And, in that vein, I did notice that 

6 yesterday, Nick, when you responded to one of the 

7 public comments said that you cured meet without 

8 celery powder. And so I'm curious to hear how you 

9 cure the meat and how well it keeps and things like 

10 that.

11 MEMBER MARAVELL: No. We make sausage 

12 without celery powder. It is uncured. So, and 

13 let me just say, my customers will not touch 

14 anything that has got a preservative of any sort. 

15 They don't care whether it's organic or not 

16 organic. So I have a finicky group.

17 So basically just think about our 

18 sausage as ground meat with spices in it. But we 

19 do add salt and vinegar, which does have some 

20 preservative value that my customers, you know, do 

21 not object to. 

22 And we advise our customers -- we
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1 deliver it as a frozen product, and we advise our 

2 customers not to keep it defrosted for more than 

3 two weeks. And we advise them that the easiest 

4 thing to do, because we sell it in links, 

5 some -- some do like it unstuffed, if you 

6 will -- bulk, but, you know, just cut off one or 

7 two links at a time and leave the rest frozen. But 

8 that's how we deal with it.

9 So there is an alternative, if you want 

10 to deal with a frozen product. But the product is 

11 different, if you don't cure it. And we are only 

12 doing beef. 

13 Now, we have mixed beef with pork, and 

14 that seemed to work out all right for our customers. 

15 But once we had liverwurst made up, which we have 

16 never been able to get made up again because our 

17 processor, even though I requested an uncured 

18 product, cured it anyway. And we could not really, 

19 in good conscience, move it anymore. We did have 

20 some people who were interested in buying it, 

21 but -- so you don't cure.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: And you don't make 
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1 bacon or ham.

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: No. Although there 

3 is something called beef bacon, but that's totally 

4 different. No, and we might get into ham and into 

5 pork. And if we do, I'm not really sure how to 

6 handle it, and that's one of the issues I would have 

7 to discover.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley? Or, sorry, 

10 Tracy?

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: We had a public 

12 commenter yesterday talk about some of the research 

13 that they have done trying to find ways to 

14 consistently make a repeatable amount of nitrates 

15 in celery. And I got a pretty strong impression 

16 that this is an issue that they are trying to 

17 resolve. 

18 I think she stated pretty clearly that 

19 they are not there yet, but they are trying to make 

20 some progress and need some time. 

21 So I don't agree with your basic 

22 premise, Colehour, on this, about it's available 
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1 and it's just not being used. 

2 I agree with Tom's comment, this is a 

3 totally different deal, and I do think that putting 

4 it on as a research priority is probably going to 

5 send a good message, I hope, that this is an issue. 

6 Clearly, the public comment and the debate about 

7 it will indicate that as well. 

8 And I'm in support of relisting or 

9 continued listing of celery powder, but putting 

10 people on notice that we are going to need to look 

11 at some alternatives and to get moving on that.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley?

13 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Yes. I was reading 

14 in the comments, and there were several comments 

15 in there that said some of the research that they 

16 had started on their own. And as an industry 

17 group, I think that they are getting our message, 

18 you know, because a lot of us are a little uneasy 

19 about keeping this on the list.

20 And I think, you know, these industry 

21 groups that they are putting together to do their 

22 own research is really important. I have had a 
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1 little experience with a substance like that 

2 before.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I'm going to make a 

4 comment and then go back to Zea. We keep speaking 

5 of solutions, too, as potentially -- or it keeps 

6 coming up in public comment that the solution might 

7 be just additional nitrate content on the plants. 

8 And I think that is just a short-sighted view of 

9 the range of possible solutions. It could also be 

10 better genetic stock and breeded stock that has 

11 been bred -- specifically, celery that has been 

12 bred specifically for this content. And I think 

13 it speaks, to a degree, to the lack of organic seed 

14 options available to our farmers. That's an area 

15 that could use additional research, I know. It's 

16 close to my company's mission. 

17 Zea?

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: I also just wanted 

19 to point out that a fairly decent number of public 

20 comments we got from farmers who feel that this is 

21 critically important, and able for them to utilize 

22 their whole animal and process parts of it that 
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1 ordinarily would have to go to waste, if there 

2 wasn't the opportunity to cure them and sell the 

3 cured meat product.

4 And this is something that I find 

5 compelling, to keep it on the list while we try and 

6 do the research to find an alternative to this.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. There were 

8 eight ranchers that specifically commented.

9 I'll go with Nick, then Francis.

10 MEMBER MARAVELL: I can see that with 

11 pork, but my experience with beef is that we have 

12 been able to do it without it. So I'm just going 

13 to add that anecdote.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Can I ask Nick a 

15 question on that before? So you've been able to 

16 do corned beef, bacon, pepperoni, salami, 

17 pastrami, ham?

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: No. We've been able 

19 to do jerky and sausage. And if we wanted to do 

20 beef bacon, we could do beef bacon. But we are 

21 dealing in a frozen product, and the taste and the 

22 texture -- well, not so much the texture, the taste 
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1 and the visual is going to be pretty much 

2 acceptable.

3 I am not an expert with pork, and I think 

4 this is a problem with pork. I don't have a 

5 solution there.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Francis?

7 MEMBER THICKE: My specialty when I 

8 went to graduate school was in salt fertility, and 

9 nitrogen in particular. And, to me, I don't 

10 understand why we could not make a comparable 

11 product in organic. Celery is celery. Nitrogen 

12 is nitrogen. You basically have two nitrogen 

13 trials. I don't understand why they couldn't 

14 duplicate that in organic.

15 Now, we might argue whether or not 

16 that's ecologically a good idea, but I can't 

17 understand why we couldn't duplicate that in an 

18 organic production system.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

20 further discussion on this item? Seeing none, we 

21 will move to a vote. The motion is to remove celery 

22 powder from the National List. All those in favor 
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1 of removing celery powder raise your hand. All 

2 those opposed? Abstention?

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was five 

4 yes, nine no. The motion fails.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

6 chia. Dr. Brines? 

7 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

8 substance is included at Section 205.606 of the 

9 National List under, c) chia, Salvia hispanica L. 

10 Thank you.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Chia seeds: It's 

12 widely agreed that they are available in organic 

13 and should be removed from the National List at this 

14 time. There was a unanimous recommendation from 

15 the Handling Subcommittee to remove this item. 

16 Is there any further discussion? 

17 Seeing none, we will move to a vote. All those in 

18 favor of removing chia seeds from the National List 

19 raise your hand. All those opposed? 

20 Abstentions? And the Chair notes that Francis is 

21 absent.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was 13 yes, 
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1 zero no, zero abstentions, one absent. The motion 

2 passes.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next item on the 

4 National List are colors. We are going to read 

5 colors as one grouping. Dr. Brines?

6 DR. BRINES: Yes. Thank you. And 

7 unless there are objections, I will forego the 

8 pigment cast number, just for clarity, although 

9 they are in the written proposals for the record.

10 So the listing is under Section 

11 205.606(d), colors derived from agricultural 

12 products must not be produced using synthetic 

13 solvents in carrier systems or any artificial 

14 preservative. 

15 The listings are: 1) beet juice 

16 extract color; 3) blackcurrant juice color; 4) 

17 black/purple carrot juice color; 5) blueberry 

18 juice color; 6) carrot juice color; 7) cherry juice 

19 color; 8) chokeberry aronia juice color; 9) 

20 elderberry juice color; 10) grape juice color; 11) 

21 grape skin extract color; 12) paprika color, dried 

22 and oil extracted; 13) pumpkin juice color; 14) 
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1 purple potato juice; 15) red cabbage extract color; 

2 16) red radish extract color; 17) saffron extra 

3 color; and, finally, 18) turmeric extract color.

4 Thank you.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. These 

6 were listed in the agenda and the public request 

7 for documents as part of two motions, one in favor 

8 of a grouping and one in favor of delisting the 

9 grouping. 

10 At this time, it is the Chair's 

11 recommendation that we vote on each one 

12 individually, and that's why they were read as a 

13 whole, as there may be changes based on public 

14 comment as it came in. But that will be a decision 

15 for the Board.

16 And now I hand it over to Jean to give 

17 the introduction.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I think this is one 

19 of Mac's originally, and then he couldn't have time 

20 to do it, so I got it. 

21 And, I'll tell you, all right, colors, 

22 there's lots of them. As you saw, we've got 17 to 
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1 look at and -- but the first go-round, when we did 

2 our first meeting on this and got the first set of 

3 public comment, it began to look as though the 

4 availability of the colors in an organic form was 

5 consistently good for a large group.

6 And so initially what we ended up doing, 

7 based on the input we got at the first meeting, was 

8 to suggest that we could have 13 of them in one 

9 group, and with a strong recommendation to remove 

10 and have four that -- where it looked like there 

11 really was not organic availability at the present 

12 time.

13 However, with the second set of public 

14 comment, it became quickly apparent that it's all 

15 over the place, and it's much -- it's not as simple 

16 as that. 

17 And so if you would be patient with me, 

18 if you haven't been looking at colors day and night 

19 and keeping you awake, then let me go through and 

20 give you a sense of the public comment out there, 

21 so that -- because it would be my 

22 recommendation -- I agree with Tom -- that we need 
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1 to look at each one and vote on each one separately, 

2 because there are separate little nuances with each 

3 of them in terms of the reality of the availability 

4 in a form that is not just quantity but is also 

5 quality in the colors that are available in the 

6 industry at the present time.

7 I will comment in the context, however, 

8 that there is absolutely no question that industry 

9 is very clearly aware of the fact that all of these 

10 colors will probably be able to go away from this 

11 list within the next five years, because there 

12 really is a huge effort to seek organic materials.

13 So we have one of the -- and I'm just -- I 

14 mean, I'm not going to cover every single public 

15 comment, because we had a lot, but I am going to 

16 make sure you've got a good cross-section. So we 

17 have one certifier, a large certifier, that says 

18 that because of the variability, seasonal 

19 availability of both quantity and quality of these 

20 colors that they would recommend that all of the 

21 colors that are listed there, the 17 of them, should 

22 remain on the list.
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1 There are, similarly, some of the 

2 producers that have said the same thing, that 

3 sometimes they can get materials and other times 

4 they may not be available in the quantity or quality 

5 that they need.

6 Some of the colors are complicated to 

7 get the right kind of color, and one of the ones 

8 that keeps coming up over and over again that you 

9 will see is sort of pulling out to say do -- can 

10 we leave this one on the list would be black/purple 

11 carrot.

12 So black/purple carrot becomes one of 

13 the ones that quickly shows up as having a wide 

14 range of consistent lack of reliability in the 

15 marketplace. You'd think there would be lots of 

16 organic carrots, but apparently the black/purples 

17 and the carrots are some of the harder ones to get 

18 hold of.

19 One of the major companies ran through 

20 a whole list of the colors that they thought they 

21 really needed, and that included beet and 

22 blackcurrant, and yet another company stated 
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1 that -- I'll pull it out -- stated that the -- so 

2 many pieces of paper. What did I do with it? 

3 Stated that the beet and the blackcurrant are 

4 widely available, and that they bring them in from 

5 Europe in particular where -- ah, yes, I found 

6 it -- that the organic red beets are contract farmed 

7 across Europe. 

8 And they are sourced from Netherlands 

9 and Germany, and, similarly, let's see, the red 

10 beets and also the blackcurrants are available and 

11 the -- and because the European Council Regulations 

12 do not include blackcurrant and beet, it indicates 

13 that these are not exempt from being organic, and, 

14 therefore, there is plenty of them available. 

15 However, other of our United States companies state 

16 that that is not the case in their experience. 

17 And it comes to blueberry. This one 

18 major company I'm looking at now says that 

19 blueberry is not readily available. They also 

20 found that both carrot and cherry are not available 

21 in either the quantity or quality that they want.

22 It does appear that chokeberry, 
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1 elderberry, grape, in its two forms, is mostly 

2 always available. But when it comes to pumpkin and 

3 red cabbage, those two seem to be consistently not 

4 readily available in organic form. 

5 So so far we've got, therefore, like 

6 there's four of them that I began to identify -- the 

7 black/purple carrot, the carrot, the pumpkin, and 

8 the red cabbage. And I don't know about the 

9 cherry, but they don't seem as consistently 

10 available in this set of public comments.

11 Purple potato and red radish, while one 

12 company says they are available, another company 

13 says they have no trouble getting as much as they 

14 want. 

15 A major trade organization suggests 

16 that turmeric still is a problem, not because it's 

17 not available organically, it is available 

18 organically, but the turmeric sometimes creates an 

19 off flavor in the food. 

20 So if you like turmeric flavor along 

21 with your color, then that's great. I actually 

22 like turmeric, so I would be okay, but some of you 
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1 others might not be. However, it is available 

2 organically, so that is something that I assume 

3 could be worked on.

4 This major trade association also 

5 listed red cabbage as being problematic, and they 

6 listed beet juice despite, as I say, that other 

7 company that says it's available. 

8 The International Association of Color 

9 Manufacturers, IACM, I mention them because they 

10 are actually making these colors -- don't usually 

11 mention the groups by name -- they recommend that 

12 all of the colors are not really commercially 

13 available as organic, and they would recommend that 

14 they all stay on the list.

15 Some of the dairy companies say we need 

16 to keep all of them, because there is a seasonal 

17 variability in their availability. The 

18 Association of Dressings and Sauces say they need 

19 blackcurrant, and that is not readily available.

20 I'm sure Tom probably put this onto a 

21 matrix, and he is going to tell us the answer to 

22 all our questions in just a minute.
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1 Other major certifiers, said that the 

2 trouble is that none of the organic colors are 

3 currently available in powder form, which is 

4 required for some of the food applications. Some 

5 will be available in liquid form but not powder.

6 Additionally, some are using shades of 

7 the color, such as fruit punch or mango yellow, 

8 which are combinations of colors, some of which are 

9 available organically and some are not. So you can 

10 see the plot thickens without any xanthan gum 

11 maybe.

12 All right. So, again, another company 

13 saying that organic black/purple carrots and 

14 carrot juice are not available readily. More to 

15 go. Don't worry. In fact, there is quite a bit 

16 of consistency in the black/purple carrot, the 

17 carrot, pumpkin, and the turmeric.

18 Red cabbage is a problem, because the 

19 red colors do not provide a long-lasting color. 

20 They begin to fade in the product over time. So 

21 it sort of goes like a brownish color rather than 

22 red, and consumers, as we know, are a fickle bunch. 
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1 They want things pure, but they want them colorful.

2 That was my addition. That was not in 

3 the report. Sorry. Very bad, Jean.

4 One of the consumer groups says we 

5 should just remove all of these, because the colors 

6 should be available, and conventional production 

7 is full of chemicals. Another consumer group, 

8 similarly, states remove all of these, because the 

9 production under conventional agriculture does not 

10 meet the OFPA criteria.

11 Further, that it would be a strong 

12 incentive to the organic industry and farmers. If 

13 we were encouraging farmers to produce more 

14 products for color as opposed to just the food, you 

15 would, therefore, have plenty available, and that 

16 this would provide an incentive to the organic 

17 industry to work with them.

18 Another company -- yes, another -- all 

19 of the public interest groups believe that they 

20 should be removed as they are all grown using 

21 chemical-intensive agriculture inputs. 

22 Let's see. It's the reliability of the 
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1 color is stressed, and the hue of the color, that 

2 is also raised by many of the companies.

3 Let's see. The issue of 205.600(b)(4) 

4 is also raised by one of the public interest groups 

5 to say that 600(b)(4) prohibits the use of 

6 synthetic processing aids or adjuvants whose 

7 primary use is as a preservative or to recreate or 

8 improve flavors, colors, textures, or nutritive 

9 value.

10 All right. So executive summary here. 

11 On the one hand, processes need a consistent supply 

12 of color. And if we remove all of them, they feel 

13 that we will negatively impact the production of 

14 their commodity that they are producing and there 

15 would be a lack of availability of these organic 

16 processed foods that have the color in, because the 

17 market demand would decline.

18 On the other hand, if we keep this 

19 exception there, and if we -- let's see, how did 

20 I have that. No. How do I put this. If we remove 

21 them from the list, we will provide an incentive 

22 to organic farmers who might want to get into the 
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1 organic colors business, but at the moment they 

2 can't compete with cheaper conventional 

3 production.

4 So win some, lose some. It is 

5 definitely not a simple decision for us to make 

6 here, so whichever way you vote you are going to 

7 upset some of your friends out there. I believe 

8 that's -- I mean, it's obvious there's plenty of 

9 comment, so I think maybe I will let -- turn it over 

10 to you to get some more from the rest of the Board 

11 before we go on.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jean. 

13 Clearly, you spent a lot of time on this item and 

14 did thorough research. So much, much appreciated.

15 I believe Mac had a point.

16 MEMBER STONE: First, I'm really glad 

17 I begged off of this one and I owe you two bottles 

18 of wine, not one. 

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: It's a bottle of wine 

20 per color.

21 MEMBER STONE: I can't get wine in all 

22 these colors.
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1 I was taking notes. The thought was 

2 we'll vote on these individually and my head 

3 started spinning and my pen stopped working. I'm 

4 not sure just which. I'm just really concerned 

5 that we have good information to start 

6 cherry-picking and deciding which ones can or 

7 cannot get.

8 One of the initial comments you made was 

9 it seems the trend is that in another five years 

10 all of these will be able to be in organic. And 

11 I'm just going to suggest that we give them a little 

12 more time and not think that we have good 

13 information to start picking and choosing which 

14 ones to remove from the list.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. As a 

17 layperson to food formulations, this is one of the 

18 most difficult for me to evaluate commercial 

19 availability issues on. And I don't really feel 

20 like we got specific enough good public comment on 

21 this because people just said we need the color or 

22 we don't need the color.
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1 What I would have wanted people to 

2 say -- and I'm holding up these three candies 

3 here -- is to go down our list and give us a color 

4 that equates, put a little color sample in. Choke 

5 cherry makes this color and purple carrot makes 

6 this color and Aronia makes this color. Then we 

7 will know that it's really a different color for 

8 all these so-called colors and then to then say, 

9 "Little Johnny has to have this color because he 

10 won't pick this color if it's not this color."

11 I mean, seriously, they all looked like 

12 red or yellow or something. And if we just keep 

13 one red, one purple, one yellow, isn't that 

14 commercially available? We didn't get specific 

15 information about why you have to have an exact 

16 shade of something and they couldn't use a 

17 different shade that was organic.

18 I feel comfortable with Jean's analysis 

19 in the subcommittee of the ones that really aren't 

20 available and not removing that group we decided 

21 not to remove. But on the others, I feel like I 

22 have to abstain.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Other discussion? 

2 Harold.

3 MEMBER AUSTIN: This is a complicated 

4 issue. There is no doubt about it. I think if you 

5 look at the public comments that we got back it's 

6 changed even for me the materials I would choose 

7 to have left on the list and the ones that I would 

8 like to remove. So it's definitely confusing.

9 I'm also tending to lean with Mac that 

10 we should give the stakeholders a little bit more 

11 time and make sure that what we do we do with a lot 

12 of knowledge. And I know on the subcommittee we 

13 went back and forth on these issues.

14 But public comment, Jean, I think you 

15 nailed it when you said it was all over the place 

16 because it was. And it was really hard to get a 

17 good read on what's really available and what's 

18 not.

19 Right now, I'd almost be a proponent of 

20 listing them all again. There's a couple I think 

21 I would lean towards removing. But do we really 

22 have enough knowledge to do that in a clear process 
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1 moving forward. I'm not so sure we do.

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I'll say something 

3 and then Jean and Tracy. I share the concerns that 

4 have been said here. I don't feel like there's 

5 enough information and I'm a bit torn on this issue 

6 myself.

7 On one end, I feel like these can and 

8 should be produced organically. Whether they are 

9 today, it doesn't seem to be clear at least in the 

10 availability or the form needed by manufacturers.

11 And I have a concern that we often think 

12 that this is a manufacturer's decision when in 

13 reality they're trying to produce a product that's 

14 95 percent plus organic that competes in a 

15 marketplace that has threats from natural and 

16 non-GMO. And when you have a non-GMO candy next 

17 to an organic candy that's half the price of the 

18 non-GMO price, which is the consumer going to 

19 choose? They're both candies. It's not like it's 

20 a health decision.

21 But do you want the organic side to that

22 product, the 95 percent of this fruit to be organic 
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1 or do you want it to be non-GMO? Right. And if 

2 it's a non-GMO sugar cane, what does that mean when 

3 non-GMO sugar cane is not out in the marketplace? 

4 That's what I'm struggling with.

5 Jean.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I did spend a heck 

7 of a long time going through all of these. And 

8 while it's not simple, I think that it is really 

9 important for us to send an encouraging message 

10 back to both processes, farmers, consumers and 

11 those companies that are trying to produce these 

12 organic colors that we want to support organic 

13 color product. We want to support the farmers that 

14 are growing the vegetables to produce the organic 

15 material to give to the organic color processing 

16 companies so that they can meet the demands for the 

17 colors.

18 If we don't eliminate a whole bunch of 

19 these off this list, I think we're not sending the 

20 correct message. We're not encouraging the 

21 farmers. We're not encouraging the organic color 

22 companies. And we are also not noting the concern 
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1 from all of the consumer groups that say, "Hey, 

2 these are all being produced with conventional 

3 methods. And do they really meet ARFA 

4 (phonetic)?"

5 So when I have gone through it over and 

6 over again I think it's slightly different from the 

7 last bunch we went through when we worked on it in 

8 the previous set of public comments. I've 

9 identified that we probably still don't have enough 

10 beet juice, black-purple carrot juice, cherry 

11 juice, pumpkin, red cabbage and I guess if they 

12 don't like the taste of turmeric we could leave 

13 turmeric on the list. But otherwise I think we 

14 could in all honestly based on my research remove 

15 from the list the rest of them.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy, then Nick.

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I am very torn. I 

18 sort of feel like this discussion is actually 

19 making it worse for me rather than better. As 

20 we've been sitting here talking, I was thinking 

21 about an organic inspection I did where there was 

22 a couple who was doing a salad dressing and they 
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1 had both natural and organic. What they found is 

2 when they started sourcing some of their organic 

3 products it was like apples to apples apparently 

4 on the product description. The formulations were 

5 slightly different. When they got them in, they 

6 actually had to reformulate some of their recipes 

7 as a result because functionally they worked 

8 different.

9 That concerns me a little bit. If 

10 we're making an assumption that you can substitute 

11 an organic cherry juice or organic cherry color for 

12 a convenient cherry we can't necessarily make that 

13 assumption. I mean certainly we can do it and 

14 maybe that would be the right thing. But that 

15 doesn't necessarily mean that there will not be an 

16 impact on the formulator.

17 I'm really torn what to do here. I also 

18 believe pretty strongly that we need to move 

19 towards there. And I really, really would like us 

20 to have formulations that are made with organic 

21 colors. Candidly, I'm still not exactly sure what 

22 I'm going to do.
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: I would like to make 

2 the comment that when you're dealing with natural 

3 products, agricultural products, you change the 

4 supplier whether they're conventional or organic. 

5 You can run into that issue because climate, exact 

6 variety, breeding stock, etc.

7 But the further point I wanted to make 

8 is that we seem to making things hard for ourselves. 

9 We're boxing ourselves in all the time. And I 

10 would again -- and you're going to hear this 

11 probably coming out from me a few more times -- say 

12 this would be an ideal situation where if we could 

13 establish a reasonable transition period with a 

14 deadline or whatever and put the industry on notice 

15 in a cooperative way that this is where we want to 

16 go and we don't want to create hardship for anybody. 

17 But we're serious about wanting to go there.

18 Somehow we get it caught into these all 

19 or nothing things. And that's not where we want 

20 to be. And that's not where the industry wants to 

21 be. I'm suggesting that we reconsider 

22 establishing phase out periods or deadlines or 
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1 whatever you want to call them. I can see that I 

2 haven't gotten very far with that suggestion.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next I had Lisa and 

4 then Zea and then Colehour.

5 MEMBER DE LIMA: Jean, I have a 

6 question for you. When you were reading public 

7 comment, I thought I heard you say elderberry, 

8 chokeberry and one other that you thought could be 

9 removed. Did I get that backwards?

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thanks.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: My question was to 

13 ask Jean to repeat that list beyond the four that 

14 we already agreed on which essentially the 

15 traditional ones. I only caught black-purple 

16 carrot, cherry and turmeric. Right.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So the four that we 

18 already had were the beet juice, the black currant, 

19 the pumpkin and the red cabbage. So I'm suggesting 

20 that we add to that group to leave on turmeric and 

21 cherry. 

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: And I thought you 
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1 said black-purple carrot.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And the 

3 black-purple carrot, yes. Correct.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Miles.

5 MR. MCEVOY: I would just like to 

6 remind the Board of the criteria you should be using 

7 for making this determination. So I would ask Lisa 

8 Brines to remind you what the criteria is for things 

9 on 206. Thanks.

10 DR. BRINES: Right. I think this just 

11 would be helpful in terms of for any materials that 

12 are recommended for removal the basis by which NLT 

13 will consider the recommendation because we have 

14 to ensure that those recommendations meet the 

15 criteria. So in general in order for substances 

16 to be added to 205.606 of the National List, the 

17 Board had made a determination at the time it was 

18 recommended that the nonorganic form of the 

19 substance is necessary for the use in organic 

20 handling and has also looked at current and 

21 historical industry information about how or why 

22 the substance cannot be obtained organically in the 
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1 appropriate form, quality or quantity to fulfil an 

2 essential function and is assumed for organic 

3 handling.

4 So in terms of the Sunset review it 

5 would be helpful in terms of rulemaking to make a 

6 change that the basis for any recommendation also 

7 be reflective of those criteria. Thank you.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

9 further discussion on this item? Colehour.

10 MEMBER BONDERA: Sorry, I didn't 

11 get -- Yes, I just really heard what Nick said and 

12 I actually agree. But what I was thinking and I 

13 was thinking again after he said it was I just see 

14 this as a really good opportunity frankly for a 

15 range of NOSB perspectives to -- I was already 

16 writing down the words collaboration and 

17 compromise in terms of coming to a conclusion that 

18 like Tracy said is not an easy set of variables and 

19 choices.

20 And I hear what Lisa is saying. But I 

21 think I just see that we should work from where 

22 we're at. And if we're able to determine with 
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1 enough verification that a product, a material, is 

2 available and we feel comfortable about it, then 

3 I think that we should use this opportunity to 

4 delist those items.

5 So I really encourage us all to try to 

6 work together and come to a conclusion that isn't 

7 one extreme or other, but rather is somewhere in 

8 the middle. That's my comment.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Mac.

10 MEMBER STONE: Just based on what Lisa 

11 just reminded us, there already is a hardship based 

12 on the nature of 206. These food processors would 

13 much rather find it in organic form. It's much 

14 easier than justifying using the nonorganic form. 

15 And there's already incentive. It's been 

16 mentioned the trend is going this way. I just hope 

17 that we don't make any harder than it is already 

18 because they're actually trending that way 

19 already.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I had a statement and 

21 then we'll go to Tracy. Talking about this and 

22 taking Nick's comments, I'm generally not a fan of 
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1 the expiration date because I felt like it hasn't 

2 been effective in the past where it's been used. 

3 Although I kind of feel like it would be more 

4 effective here. Although I also see Miles staring 

5 at me saying no, the program has stated that that's 

6 not an option for us.

7 Keeping that all in mind, I was trying 

8 to think of what is another method that might be 

9 effective or has evidence of efficacy that's been 

10 similar. And one that just came to mind is 

11 flavors. It's always nice for one NOSB to put a 

12 mandate on the next NOSB.

13 What happened with flavors from the 

14 last NOSB they reviewed flavors and made a 

15 statement that the next NOSB who reviewed this 

16 category should not renew it in its full form. And 

17 that's hopefully what happens when we review the 

18 annotation change on Thursday and we add commercial 

19 availability to the category of flavors.

20 I wonder if there's an opportunity to 

21 take a similar action here where colors get 

22 renewed, but a statement gets added that this NOSB 
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1 recommends that the next NOSB do not renew all 

2 colors in the same form. And in the next five 

3 years, the industry must find a way to solve this 

4 issue. Tracy and then others.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: First, just to 

6 comment on that. It does sort of feel like 

7 kicking the can down the road to the next person. 

8 I appreciate that. Believe me. I would sort of 

9 like to have that solution.

10 Again, what Lisa said about industry's 

11 feedback, it's a little bit confounding because in 

12 some cases we've had one group say these are 

13 absolutely available and the other one say it's 

14 absolutely not. So the question I want to pose 

15 is really to Jean. Did you have one, two, three, 

16 four or whatever number of colors that somebody in 

17 your opinion or enough somebodies said it is 

18 available organically even if you had some

19 opposition? So we would have a preponderance of 

20 evidence saying that there are some definitely 

21 available in organic form. And those are the ones 

22 you've read.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: So that was black 

3 and purple, cherry. Those are not available, 

4 okay. So which ones were available again? Give 

5 me those again.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The rest of the 

7 list.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: So we've got four 

9 that are not available and the rest.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No. The ones that 

11 appear to be inconsistently available are either 

12 in quantity or in quality, the right kind of color 

13 hue, are beet juice, black current juice, 

14 black-purple carrot juice, cherry juice, pumpkin, 

15 red cabbage and turmeric.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: And you feel that 

17 there is a preponderance of evidence suggesting 

18 that the rest are consistently and with consistent 

19 quality available in organic form.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, based on a wide 

21 scattering of large enough processor groups saying 

22 that. If they were to get their act together so 
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1 to speak, yes, all the other ones would be 

2 available.

3 MEMBER MARAVELL: Zea, what happened 

4 on carrageenan? We did make a statement. No, no. 

5 Keep a straight face here. We did make a statement 

6 and there was responsiveness from the industry to 

7 start reformulating. And what we did was we 

8 approved carrageenan with an annotation which did 

9 not get implemented.

10 But we did make a statement, did we not, 

11 that we didn't feel that this was going to be 

12 approved again in another five years? And I don't 

13 know whether we just made that statement in a formal 

14 resolution or not.

15 And then I know with regard to the 

16 methionine we've made a formal statement. I'm 

17 picking up on Tom's suggestion here that we made 

18 a formal statement that we want to see the industry 

19 find natural sources of methionine. That was a 

20 resolution that we actually passed.

21 Do you recall what happened?

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: It was carrageenan. 
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1 It was an informal statement, not a Board 

2 resolution. And it is going to end up coming back 

3 in four years instead of five years. We've already 

4 commissioned the TR for it because the new Sunset 

5 process makes us have to reconsider things earlier. 

6 So it will be a four year review essentially.

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: And I know some of us

8 made informal statements to industry not part of 

9 the meeting. And I think there was a real desire 

10 to cooperate.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, almost every 

12 item though when we review it and wish we could move 

13 away from it, we made some sort of informal 

14 statement that we would like to move away from. 

15 And in fact we're going to be taking a number of 

16 things off the list, especially in 606 from five 

17 years ago.

18 So our intention to move away from 

19 things is working. The industry is looking for

20 organic sources and finding them in many cases.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I have a question for 

22 Jean. You said all the colors were available that 
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1 you just read. Does that include powdered forms 

2 of those?

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I don't have an 

4 answer to that question. 

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: It might be worth 

7 just reminding us that since this is on 606 it's 

8 subject to commercial availability.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: That's correct. All 

10 items on 606 are subject to commercial 

11 availability. Francis.

12 MEMBER THICKE: I would suggest to move 

13 forward and look at that first group of 18. And 

14 it looks like you've maybe identified 14 that we 

15 vote in groups to start with. Do we want to vote 

16 on those first 14? We can debate how many we want 

17 to vote on. Is there a consensus on some of them?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We can do it one by 

19 one. I think we should do it one by one.

20 MEMBER THICKE: Okay.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Take each color one 

22 by one.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

2 discussion?

3 Can I say that would it be a true 

4 statement that the Board is fairly aligned with us 

5 adding a statement no matter what the outcome is 

6 to some of these colors that the future NOSB does 

7 not or takes a strong view at the efforts of the 

8 industry to formulate these products out and find 

9 organic alternatives? Any objections to that?

10 That would not be in the motions. I 

11 don't believe it's a substantial change. Is that 

12 correct?

13 MR. MCEVOY: Yes.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay. Unless 

15 there's further discussion on this item, then it's 

16 my recommendation that we -- Mac.

17 MEMBER STONE: I hear the conversation 

18 about sending a message, but also feel like 

19 that -- Jean, I appreciate all the work and I don't 

20 want to discredit the work. I just think it puts 

21 a lot of pressure on you to help us get it right. 

22 I think the industry has already sent a message that 
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1 we're already doing pretty good.

2 We're going to potentially take a lot 

3 of these off today. I just want to make sure that 

4 they know we appreciate that they're going in this 

5 direction already, not just that they need to do 

6 better. 

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Just sort of 

9 thinking through the 606, the commercial 

10 availability proposition here. So it seems to me 

11 that we might not trust the commercial availability 

12 function in that we say we've got to take it off 

13 because even if it's available organically they 

14 won't use it.

15 That tells me we don't really kind of 

16 trust the inspection process or the certifiers to 

17 ensure that there is commercial availability 

18 verification on an inspection. Actually, that's 

19 sort of beyond the scope of what we're talking about 

20 here.

21 So if these materials are available 

22 organically, then they have to use them in organic 
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1 form. So they don't have the option of using them 

2 through conventional methods. And their 

3 certifier and their inspectors should be 

4 responsible for ensuring that the commercial 

5 availability is a true test instead of just a token 

6 gesture. That's helped clarify things for me a 

7 little bit.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Francis.

9 MEMBER THICKE: If that works as well 

10 as organic seeds, it probably doesn't work real 

11 well because people can just get three sources that 

12 say they don't have them and then move on and use 

13 conventional.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: But that speaks to 

16 the process of commercial availability checks 

17 rather than whether or not it should be on a list 

18 that allows for commercial availability if you 

19 follow my drift.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Nick.

21 MEMBER MARAVELL: Again we're dealing 

22 with a natural product here. I'll just move over 
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1 to seed for just a second because I'm not a person 

2 who buys colors. But there are years when I can 

3 get organic seed that I want and other years when 

4 I can't because of crop failure. And the same 

5 could happen and it's sometimes very regional 

6 specific.

7 A lot of the seed will come out of Oregon 

8 or South Dakota or whatever and they had a crop 

9 failure. I'm not going to be able to get that seed 

10 in organic form.

11 There's always a twist in every one of 

12 these. And let me just ask the program for a 

13 second. Suppose we were to require organically 

14 sourced colors and there was a crop failure. Does 

15 the program have a way to accommodate industry in 

16 those situations? Would they have to do without 

17 colors or would they be able to source from -- If 

18 we took this action, if we took these colors off 

19 606, but there was a crop failure, is there any way 

20 for the program to accommodate industry on it?

21 MR. MCEVOY: There are the temporary 

22 variance provisions in the regulations. But I 
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1 don't believe they apply to substances. So I don't 

2 think that would be an available variance for 

3 organic colors completely not being available.

4 MEMBER MARAVELL: So the variances 

5 just apply to practices.

6 MR. MCEVOY: Right.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

8 discussion?

9 Seeing none, unless there's an 

10 objection, what we'll do is move down the list of 

11 colors as it is listed in the National List 

12 alphabetically and vote on them one by one. 

13 Sorry. Zea, did you have -- You do not, okay. 

14 She's gone. She said she's going to abstain. 

15 Seeing no objection to that, I'm going to ask Dr. 

16 Brines to help me out with that list. Can you tell 

17 me again alphabetically? And I'm going to ask my 

18 vote counters if you are prepared since I know this 

19 isn't on the vote sheet this way. Are you ready 

20 for 17 votes?

21 All right. Are they individual on the 

22 voting sheets? Oh, look at that. Great. With 
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1 that, we will start with the motion to remove color 

2 beet juice extract color. All those in favor to 

3 remove color beet juice extract from the National 

4 List raise your hands. Beet juice extract color.

5 (Show of hands)

6 To remove beet juice extract color. 

7 Okay. What's the -- So all the motions for sunset 

8 are to remove. We're going to vote on all 17 

9 substances in a row. Correct.

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I know it looks as 

11 though beet juice may or may not be widely 

12 commercially available. I happen to think that 

13 there's enough of it. But most people do not 

14 necessarily think that. I happen to be voting to 

15 get rid of beet juice. But that doesn't mean that 

16 you guys have to vote the same way as I do.

17 (Laughter)

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: All right. No 

19 problem. So right now we're going to vote on just 

20 beet juice extract color. And the motion is to 

21 remove. 

22 (Vote taken by show of hands)
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I have the vote of 

2 six yes, five no, two abstentions. The motion 

3 fails.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Before we move on, 

5 maybe I missed this when I was out of the room. 

6 But, Jean, did you say why this was one you 

7 recommended keeping and then you voted against it?

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: This is a challenge 

9 for me because there appears to be plenty of it 

10 available in Europe. But on the other hand, most 

11 of the U.S. companies, they say that that doesn't 

12 necessarily make it fully commercially available 

13 to them. So it's just one of the ones where I feel 

14 that I can't vote to keep. But you shouldn't 

15 necessarily do what I suggest on this one.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: No, of course not. 

17 But I thought I had read that this was one of the 

18 ones that it was dry versus liquid issue. One or 

19 the other was available and the other wasn't.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I don't think that was 

21 clear in the comments. The dry comment came I 

22 believe from DNT stating no color was available in 
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1 dry form. Then there was a couple of companies that 

2 wrote in stating that. I believe Stonyfield and 

3 Global Organics both spoke to the availability of 

4 beets for their applications.

5 Tracy.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Just a 

7 clarification for the record. The vote was six 

8 yes, six no, two abstentions. The motion still 

9 fails.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is 

11 colors black current juice color. The motion is 

12 to remove. 

13 (Vote taken by show of hands)

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: We have a vote of 

15 three yes, six no, five abstentions. The motion 

16 fails.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is 

18 colors, pumpkin juice color. The motion is to 

19 remove.

20 (Vote taken by show of hands)

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: We have a vote of two 

22 yes, 11 no, one abstention. The motion fails.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is red 

2 cabbage extract color. The motion is to remove.

3 (Vote taken by show of hands)

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was two yes, 11 

5 no, one abstention. The motion fails.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is 

7 black-purple carrot juice color. The motion is to 

8 remove.

9 (Vote taken by show of hands)

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Two yes, 10 no, two 

11 abstentions. The motion fails.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is 

13 blueberry juice color. The motion is to remove.

14 (Vote taken by show of hands)

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I have five yes, 

16 eight nos, three abstentions. The motion fails. 

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The motion is correct 

18 or that was correct.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The count wasn't 

20 right though.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Five.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Five yes, three 
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1 abstentions.

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Five yes, six no, 

3 three abstentions.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Six nos. I'm 

5 sorry. Six nos. I said eight. Yes, six nos.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is -- Do 

7 you want a roll call vote on the last one?

8 There's been a call for a roll call vote 

9 on the blueberry juice color.

10 (Roll call vote taken)

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I have five yes, 

12 five no, four abstention. The motion fails.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is 

14 colors, carrot juice color. The motions is to 

15 remove.

16 (Vote taken by show of hands)

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is four 

18 yes, seven no, three abstentions. The motion 

19 fails.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next motion is to 

21 remove colors, cherry juice color from that 

22 National List.
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1 (Vote taken by show of hands)

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is three 

3 yes, nine nos, two abstentions. The motion fails.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next motion is to 

5 remove chokeberry/aronia juice.

6 (Vote taken by show of hands)

7 The Chair is going to call for a roll 

8 call vote on this one.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Guys, just give me 

10 a little bit longer before you lower your hand if 

11 you would for me please.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: All right. We'll 

13 start with Richardson, Jean.

14 (Roll call vote taken)

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was seven 

16 yes, five no, two abstentions. The motion fails.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is 

18 elderberry juice color. The motion is to remove.

19 (Vote taken by show of hands)

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was seven 

21 yes, five no, two abstentions. The motion fails.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is 
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1 colors, grape juice color. The motion is to 

2 remove.

3 (Vote taken by show of hands)

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was seven 

5 yes, five nos, two abstention. The motion fails.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is grape 

7 skin extract color. The motion is remove.

8 (Vote taken by show of hands)

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was six 

10 yes, six no, two abstentions. The motion fails.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next motion is for 

12 colors, paprika color. The motion is to remove.

13 (Vote taken by show of hands)

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was five 

15 yes, seven no, two abstentions. The motion fails.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is for 

17 colors, purple potato juice. The motion is to 

18 remove.

19 (Vote taken by show of hands)

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was five 

21 yes, seven no, two abstentions. The motion fails.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is 
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1 colors, red radish extract color. The motion is 

2 to remove.

3 (Vote taken by show of hands)

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was six 

5 yes, six no, two abstention. The motion fails.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: And the next item is 

7 saffron extract color. The motion is to remove.

8 (Vote taken by show of hands)

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was seven yes, 

10 five no, two abstentions. The motion fails.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: And finally colors, 

12 turmeric extract color. Motion is to remove.

13 (Vote taken by show of hands)

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was three yes, 

15 nine no, two abstentions. The motion fails.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So what do you 

17 think? All the colors stay on the list. You're 

18 supposed to be happy now out there. But I think 

19 everyone got our message. So now I think we might 

20 just take a short 15 minute break.

21 It is now 4:10 p.m. So that would be 

22 4:25 p.m. We'll get back and we'll finish up the 
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1 rest of the list in no time at all. Off the record.

2 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

3 went off the record at 4:08 p.m. and resumed at 4:28 

4 p.m.)

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Back on the record. 

6 Tom.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item on the 

8 agenda is dillweed oil.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Please note that 

10 Harold is still here.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Dr. Brines.

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This listing 

13 appears on Section 205.606 of the National List 

14 under E, Dillweed Oil CAS number 8006-75-5. 

15 Thanks.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Dillweed oil is 

17 available in organic. It also meets the 

18 definition of a natural flavor and so can be used 

19 under that annotation. I had no comments 

20 supported relisting. This item should be removed 

21 from the National List. The subcommittee 

22 unanimously voted to have this item removed. Is 
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1 there any further discussion?

2 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote on 

3 dillweed. The motion is to remove.

4 (Vote taken by show of hands)

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was 14 yes, 

6 zero no. The motion passes.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is fish 

8 oil. Dr. Brines.

9 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This item 

10 appears on Section 205.606 of the National List 

11 under F, Fish Oil, Fatty Acid CAS numbers 

12 10417-94-4 and 25167-62-8, stabilized with the 

13 organic ingredients or only with ingredients on the 

14 National List Sections 205.605 and 205.606. Thank 

15 you.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. Another 

18 simple one now, fish oil. Here we have obviously 

19 from a commercial availability point of view fish 

20 oil is not commercially available in organic form. 

21 And so therefore it is appropriately on 606. And 

22 the NOP does not presently have production status 
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1 for aquiculture at this time. So obviously that 

2 isn't going to change in the immediate near future.

3 Over the several years, fish oil has 

4 however become increasingly used as a supplemental 

5 material added to a wide range of foods to increase 

6 the content of Omega-3 fatty acids. There are some 

7 sources of medical literature that indicate that 

8 the fish oil's benefit to human health by 

9 contributing to healthy brain development, 

10 improving cardiovascular disease, diabetes, 

11 inflammation, etc., and other scientific data 

12 that says that fish oil is overrated.

13 Fish oil is used in a wide variety of 

14 food products, bread, pies, cereals, yogurt, 

15 cheese products, frozen dairy products, etc., in 

16 very small quantities. The fish oil used in these 

17 foods that we're looking at today constitutes only 

18 a tiny portion of the fish oil's produced since 81 

19 percent of the fish oil goes worldwide to feeding 

20 livestock, pigs, aquiculture, etc.

21 The challenge for us on the fish oil is 

22 that the production of fish oil today is some of 
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1 the conservative criteria, such as the 

2 biodiversity. As some of our public commenters, 

3 especially those sort of in the public interest 

4 group area, state that production of fish oil today 

5 often violates the fundamental tenants of organic 

6 food production to promote ecological balance and 

7 conserve biodiversity.

8 That's just one example of many kinds 

9 of comments that we had from a broad range of public 

10 interest groups raising concerns about the use of 

11 fish oils in the feeds that we get nowadays. And 

12 there were many of those groups. And they had a 

13 broad range of comments like that.

14 For example, here's another one. Most 

15 fish oil for human consumption comes from the lower 

16 levels of the marine food chain such as mackerel, 

17 salmon, sardine and herring. But fish oils also 

18 come from deep sea fish and top level predators 

19 including cod, pollock, swordfish, etc.

20 There is some implication that fish 

21 oils, the harvesting of the fish oils, is having 

22 a negative impact on a broad range of the marine 
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1 trophic levels in a range of geographic areas in 

2 the world. We can say with reasonable certainty 

3 that in some parts of the world, such as Peru, there 

4 may well be a control. In other parts of the world, 

5 that is not the case.

6 It's not simple as you understand I know 

7 when it comes to understanding the impact of fish 

8 oils. Only a tiny percent is coming to these food 

9 additives that we're adding in to processed 

10 products.

11 Typically, the fish oil is not coming 

12 from fish which are collected only for fish oil, 

13 although again there's a broad range of opinion on 

14 that depending on which of the public comments you 

15 look at.

16 The public comments that come from the 

17 companies that product the fish oil strongly 

18 indicate and provide a statement as to the 

19 significant need to have Omega-3, EPA and DHA fatty 

20 acids. And in recent years, they state that 

21 technology has emerged that allows food 

22 manufacturers to add fish oil to foods and to allow 
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1 fish adverse consumers to be able to reap the 

2 benefits of Omega-3 without eating fish. 

3 And, of course, there are many consumers that 

4 are very happy to have this fish oil added to their 

5 food when they may not otherwise get the fish oil. 

6 They could take it as separate fish oil supplements 

7 which is another point that was brought up by other 

8 groups.

9 We did receive extensive commentary, 

10 written comments, on the measurement of 

11 environmental contaminants in the fish oil 

12 supplements. And these are highly scientific 

13 documents that help us to see that there is a wide 

14 range of contaminant potential in some fishes, but 

15 that the ones that are used in the fish oil 

16 supplements have undergone extensive purification 

17 so that the consumers could have a high level of 

18 confidence in the fish oil that goes into the 

19 additives, the fish oil supplements.

20 The issue of necessity comes to light 

21 when we also look at bouncing off the -- setting 

22 aside just the health benefits assuming that there 
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1 may or may not be health benefits depending on which 

2 medical science you look at. I take a supplemental 

3 fish oil every day. I'll disclose that for the 

4 record.

5 But setting aside the health benefits 

6 controversy, fish oil may or may not be a necessary 

7 ingredient in organic foods. And that was raised 

8 by a number of the public interest groups that would 

9 ask that we would remove this material from the 

10 list.

11 The companies that produced them, of 

12 course, and many of the processors would say that 

13 we should not rush to delete the fish oils because 

14 they believe that the health benefits outweigh any 

15 potential contaminant impact and again reminding 

16 us that there is no organic fish oil available.

17 This is one of these things that you are 

18 just going to have to come to your decisions on for 

19 yourselves. Board Members, I don't have a perfect 

20 recommendation for you. You should note that in 

21 subcommittee we had a divided vote of the people 

22 that were there. Two said yes to remove, four said 
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1 no and one person was absent.

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jean. Any 

3 further discussion on this item? Colehour.

4 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Thank 

5 you, Jean. I guess your fish oil supplement isn't 

6 organic. Sorry. We'll work on that.

7 My question is actually not 

8 specifically to you, Jean. But you can either 

9 answer or perhaps other handling subcommittee 

10 members are willing to respond. And my question 

11 is based on the public input that we've received 

12 in this round has that influenced any of the 

13 subcommittee members' thinking or reflections on 

14 this. And might have any of them either changed 

15 their position or reinforced their position based 

16 on what has come forth in the second round of public 

17 commentary for this Sunset consideration? That's 

18 my inquiry.

19 And like I said, I don't know if you want 

20 to respond, Jean, or if other members are willing 

21 to. Thank you.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Lisa.
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1 MEMBER DE LIMA: Not really an answer 

2 to your question. My mind was already made up 

3 before hearing public comment. I don't think it's 

4 compatible from an environmental perspective and 

5 I question the necessity as well. I was one of the 

6 ones who voted yes to removing in subcommittee. 

7 And I'm still going to vote that way now.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: I struggled with 

10 this and thought long and hard about it. I was one 

11 of the ones who voted to keep it coming out of 

12 committee.

13 And I can't say that solely the public 

14 comment changed my opinion. But we voted on this 

15 one before we took up the issue of nutrient, 

16 vitamins and minerals. This is not a vitamin or 

17 a mineral, but it is a nutritional additive, a 

18 fortification if you will.

19 In the course of studying that other 

20 issue mostly, my thinking came around to 

21 nutritional fortification of something should be 

22 a choice that a consumer can make independent of 
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1 putting it into the product.

2 Like Jean, I take a supplement and the 

3 supplement that I take I look very carefully at the 

4 label to see if it has a statement about heavy 

5 metals, that it's been screened to see if it meets 

6 a voluntary standard, to see if they disclose where 

7 the fishery is, all of the things that we're talking 

8 about in evaluating it.

9 But I just don't see that when you're 

10 buying a product that has it just automatically in 

11 it that you have all that access to all that 

12 information. So you're basically your decision

13 then on trust of the company name or the brand name 

14 of that company.

15 I feel that my number one concern is 

16 that it doesn't seem to be necessary to producing 

17 the product, 6517(c)(1)(A)(ii). While it's not 

18 harmful to human health, the jury is still out in 

19 the environment and from overfishing issues. And 

20 I don't feel like we're equipped to regulate it to 

21 only a fishery that has a certain amount of control 

22 over it because we don't have enough information 
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1 on the other fisheries like we've gotten on the 

2 Peruvian regulated fishery. And it might give 

3 unfair advantage to one company over another with 

4 the source there or not source there.

5 So after deliberating on all of that, 

6 I have decided to change my vote and vote against 

7 this continuing, a vote to remove it.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: It is quite 

10 unfortunate that we're doing this immediately 

11 after the colors when we were all so stressed and 

12 confused about colors. It feels like a little bit 

13 more like the more you start the worse it stinks 

14 on this one.

15 But I'm sort of torn on this one. I am 

16 concerned about the environmental impact. I'm 

17 also concerned about the market disruption if we 

18 suddenly make something not available that has 

19 already gone into products. And while I agree it's 

20 not essential, there is a certain amount of 

21 consumer expectation now where it's in products.

22 Also if we do take it off we have a 
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1 couple of things contextually that we need to 

2 consider. The first is that if aquiculture 

3 standards come out and they approved and put into 

4 effect, we will essentially have organic fish oil 

5 potentially. So in some ways the question is moot 

6 in regards to that.

7 The other thing is if rulemaking ever 

8 is completed on the DHA, the only supplement that 

9 you could use for Omega-3s would be DHA algal oil 

10 which is in limbo land I guess. So regardless I'm 

11 a little conflicted about what's the best thing to 

12 do here which doesn't offer anybody by way of 

13 guidance. But there it is.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I'll go and then Zea. 

15 It's my opinion that we need to be consistent in 

16 our evaluation of these substances. The 

17 environmental concerns of fish oil for handling 

18 products are identical to the environmental 

19 concerns for liquid fish products in farming which 

20 this Board just voted to renew by a vote of 13 in 

21 favor of it remaining on the list.

22 We can't pick and choose which products 
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1 have environmental concerns. And these are real 

2 concerns. I think there is a need to reevaluate 

3 the approach and use of marine products and organic 

4 products at a holistic level including at the farm, 

5 at the ranch, and in the handling facility and the 

6 processor.

7 And it's my opinion that fish oil could 

8 be annotated to further improve the listing. But 

9 at this point all we can consider is to remove it 

10 or not. Removing it now will (1) not resolve the 

11 root concerns we have with fish oil. However, if 

12 we wait to further annotate it we have the potential 

13 to create a market for sustainable fish oil that 

14 we all want to see.

15 (2) Consumers have a choice. They can 

16 choose to buy products fortified with fish oil and 

17 they can choose to buy products not fortified with 

18 fish oil.

19 (3) Tracy mentioned this. We could 

20 stun what is a nearly emerging organic seafood 

21 industry and a byproduct that will be critical to 

22 make them profitable as soon as possible.
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1 And (4) lastly, it puts organic 

2 products at a disadvantage when on shelves next to 

3 natural and non-GMO products for further health 

4 advantages at a lower cost. Is this small 

5 supplement that we could help make a better market 

6 for it to further annotation at a later time better 

7 than that 95 percent of the product that's organic 

8 that will no longer be available?

9 I struggle with that myself. This is 

10 one of the hardest materials on the list. I'll 

11 leave it there. Now, Zea.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: A couple of points. 

13 First of all, if we vote it off now, this is not 

14 a sudden change. People will have a year and a half 

15 to still sell products until it actually sunsets 

16 in 2017. That time could be used to educate people 

17 as to fish oil supplementation versus having to 

18 have it in their product.

19 Second of all, I completely disagree 

20 with Tom's contention that any consumer who is now 

21 buying organic with fish oil will switch to 

22 nonorganic milk because it's next to it on the 
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1 shelf. I think our organic consumers are smarter 

2 and devoted to organic. And we saw no data to 

3 support that someone would just buy conventional 

4 milk or whatever you called it, natural milk 

5 instead of organic milk.

6 Yes, I would be happy if instead of this 

7 it was allowed and made with organic and not 

8 completely organic. But that is not on the table.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I have Harold.

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: It's a difficult 

11 discussion. It really is. Public comments could 

12 sway me either way. But sitting on this Board as 

13 one of the two handler reps, we do have stakeholders 

14 out there that have got formulations that are in 

15 place using this material not just as an additive, 

16 but also as an ingredient more than just for the 

17 Omega-3s.

18 Some people can't eat fish. And I know 

19 they can take a supplement. But we've got 

20 stakeholders that have got products out there, 

21 materials out there that have been formulated with 

22 this. 
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1 I think Tracy hit on a little bit that 

2 at some point in time if we get the aquiculture 

3 standards in place, if we can ever get to a point 

4 where we've got a decision on that, that will help 

5 clear up part of this issue that we're having this 

6 discussion on today. I'm torn, but I'm still going 

7 to support the continuation of keeping this on the 

8 National List at this time.

9 But I think we need to send a message 

10 to those individuals that this is a difficult one. 

11 If it should stay on the list, it's definitely one 

12 of those ones that's not going to probably be there 

13 forever.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Lisa.

15 MEMBER DE LIMA: To Tom's point about 

16 maybe being able to annotate it so that we could 

17 require sustainability around fish oil, I think 

18 it's a nice idea. But it sounds really, really 

19 hard in practice. Even when you're just looking 

20 at single species like I do when I'm sourcing for 

21 the retail store, it's really hard.

22 And there's a lot of different 
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1 definitions of sustainability and what's rated 

2 green, what's rated yellow, what's red and I think 

3 it would be a huge challenge for us to be able to 

4 come up with something that the rest of the 

5 sustainable fish industry hasn't come to an 

6 agreement on.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I am just sort of 

9 thinking through logistics. And again I'm still 

10 conflicted about how to vote here. But if we vote 

11 fish oil off the list, it sunsets in 2017. We have 

12 aquiculture standards that come in and come into 

13 place. And eventually we have organic fish oil 

14 again. Then we've got almost this roller coaster 

15 ride for producers where it's off for a while 

16 potentially with some sort of gap depending on when 

17 the standards get into place and then an 

18 opportunity to reformulate with it again. I'm 

19 kind of wondering what to do about that.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley.

21 MEMBER SWAFFAR: I'm really on the 

22 fence and a lot of what Tracy said is exactly how 
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1 I feel. I really think that aquiculture is going 

2 to come. That will be our classes like fun times. 

3 And I would really worry about the handlers that 

4 wrote in and said that they use fish oil in a lot 

5 of milk formulations and things like that.

6 If that would go away, who knows when 

7 we'll get aquiculture. Maybe there will be a gap 

8 there. And I think that's part of a market that 

9 consumers could be very confused on.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Now I'm thinking if 

12 81 percent of the fish oil goes to aquiculture have 

13 they petitioned this for organic fish that is 

14 coming down the pike? And if they haven't, then 

15 they have to use organic fish oil to feed those 

16 organic fish, don't they? Or what?

17 So I don't think maybe organic fish oil 

18 will be on the market because if they have to have 

19 100 percent organic feed for those organic fish 

20 they have to give them all the fish oil.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: There is a provision 
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1 for phasing in from nonorganic to organic and the 

2 provision for fish meal. So there is that sort and 

3 addresses it a little bit.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I can't speak to the 

5 price of products that exist, but in terms of 

6 agricultural land based products, generally food 

7 ingredients get a premium over feed ingredients. 

8 So food ingredients get a premium or feed 

9 ingredients if there's a shortage. Mac.

10 MEMBER STONE: So we take a spoonful of 

11 cod liver oil this morning. But if the food 

12 processors/manufacturers say they're adding these 

13 product it's not cheap or easy and the market forces 

14 are telling them that they're sell more milk if they 

15 put these things in it or yogurt or whatever it 

16 might be.

17 I don't know if it's necessary, but if 

18 you ask the marketing people then I think they're 

19 calling for more milk which means more cows which 

20 means more farms. And I guess I'm okay with that.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I'm a consumer rep 

22 on the Board. And of course I have two sets of 
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1 consumers out there. One set of consumer wants us 

2 to remove the list because of the concerns, maybe 

3 some real, maybe some exaggerated. It's hard to 

4 know from the literature. There's a wide range of

5 literature on this because of concerns of a 

6 combination of environmental, marine concerns and 

7 also for a potential of contaminants that remain 

8 in the less purified forms of fish oil.

9 And then on the other hand, you have 

10 those consumers that say fish oil is really good 

11 for you because it's healthy and it's going to do 

12 something good for me and my kids. So I'd like to 

13 see it in the milk and the cookies and all the other 

14 things.

15 Both those sets of consumers are out 

16 there which further adds to the conflict that we 

17 feel in deciding whether we should keep this or 

18 remove this material. So for all of us it's a 

19 really difficult decision to come to. I don't have 

20 a perfect answer for it.

21 I do know that when you purchase your 

22 fish oil in whatever form you're going to take it, 
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1 a liquid form or a pill form or whatever it is, you 

2 always spend a lot of time looking for the forms 

3 that have been the most highly purified. You look 

4 for some sort of annotation that then says we're 

5 going to put some sort of requirements in an 

6 annotation as to not only how pure it is or the test 

7 levels or the oceans or the area that it comes from 

8 or that fact that it shouldn't come from some of 

9 the mammals which are included in the fish oil and 

10 the TR which I didn't like to see as you know. But 

11 it also included some seals and whales which seems 

12 to me like an odd thing to see in fish oils instead 

13 of mammals.

14 There were a lot of issues that were 

15 raised from a consumer's point of view from both 

16 aspects for us to consider as we deliberate on this. 

17 It's not just necessity although that certainly 

18 comes into it. But it is also a matter of fact 

19 consumer choice. If they choose to have fish oil, 

20 then there are other places they can get it other 

21 than just as a food additive.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any additional 
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1 discussion on this item? Harold.

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: I want to go back that 

3 it's not just an additive. It's the ingredient 

4 that's being used. So it's something that's part 

5 of a formulated material for texture. You look at 

6 the gummy confections. It's in part of our written 

7 document, Jean, where it's actually used as part 

8 of their formulation product

9 It's not for the addition of the fish 

10 itself but as an ingredient that has consistency, 

11 texture. I'm not sure exactly what all they're 

12 using it for. But they specifically said that it's 

13 an ingredient used in the gummy confections, gummy 

14 nutritional supplements, jelly beans, etc.

15 We do have stakeholders that are using 

16 it in different ways for different reasons. So I 

17 think we have to be cognizant of that.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jean, when you were 

20 doing your research, I can't remember if you've 

21 answered this question. So pardon me. But did 

22 you get a sense of what percentage of fish oil is 
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1 from fish caught specifically for that purpose 

2 versus that which is a byproduct of other fishing 

3 products?

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: No, I didn't get a 

5 really clear sense of that.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

7 discussion?

8 Seeing none, we'll move to the vote. 

9 The motion is to remove fish oil. It came from the 

10 subcommittee with the vote of two yes, four no, one 

11 absent.

12 (Vote taken by show of hands)

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was eight 

14 yes, five no, one abstention. The motion fails.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next item on the list 

16 if fructooligosaccharides (FOS). Dr. Brines.

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

18 substance appears at Section 205.606 (H) 

19 Fructooligosaccharides, CAS number 308066-66-2. 

20 Thank you.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I will refer to this 

22 product by its short name, FOS. FOS is one of two 
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1 inulin fiber products on the 606 list. It is a 

2 nondigestible, soluble prebiotic fiber. Little 

3 new information was provided since the first 

4 reading, but it included some new companies 

5 speaking to the unavailability of FOS. Comments 

6 from interest groups repeated the earlier comments 

7 that the substance was not agricultural. But upon 

8 reviewing the draft guidance, NOP 5033, on 

9 agricultural/nonagricultural classification, 

10 based on the information contained in the new 

11 technical review, the handling committee continued 

12 to believe the agricultural classification was 

13 correct.

14 The material satisfies OFPA criteria. 

15 And the handling subcommittee recommended its 

16 renewal. Retention of this material was part of 

17 a justification for the later recommendation to 

18 remove the second inulin product on the list.

19 Open it up for discussion. Jean.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Could you clarify 

21 how widely used it is and tell me whether it's 

22 necessary? 
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So it's used in 

2 several forms as a soluble, prebiotic fiber flavor 

3 enhancement. And it's used in yogurt, infant 

4 foods, bake goods, beverages and other dairy 

5 products.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So what if it wasn't 

7 there.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: It's a liquid form of 

9 inulin, a short chain. Presumably you would have 

10 to find another suitable fiber product.

11 Any further discussion on this item? I 

12 have Mac, then Zea.

13 MEMBER STONE: I am still kind of 

14 bothered by this. It's a bulking agent, but then 

15 it's indigestible. It seems like those are not 

16 quite really where we want to go. Or that is where 

17 we go.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: And like Jean, I'm 

19 having trouble with soluble, prebiotic fiber and 

20 why like bran wouldn't work that was organic or oats 

21 or other fiber things that you could put in your 

22 muffin.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: But those don't 

2 provide a quality that is used in bake goods, 

3 moisture and it's also used in yogurt which bran 

4 and oats would be different.

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. But how 

6 about the dried orange pulp which is coming up which 

7 they said was also used for moisture in bake goods?

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Fibers are often used 

9 for moisture retention, yes.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: So how is it 

11 different than an agricultural material like dried 

12 orange pulp?

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: This is also an 

14 agricultural material. But dried orange pulp is 

15 in a dried form, not a liquid form and it has a 

16 different functional basis for its usage.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Can you clarify why 

18 the agricultural basis of it?

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: How we determined it 

20 was agricultural?

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Right.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: There are two common 
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1 methods to produce FOS. One is from inulin and one 

2 is from sucrose. Inulin derived FOS is found in 

3 chicory, artichoke, agave and other plants. 

4 Chicory inulin is extracted from the source 

5 material via water extraction. The resulting 

6 inulin undergoes a partial and schematic 

7 hydrolysis using an enzyme, inulin. The 

8 hydrolysis breaks the long chain inulin into 

9 shorter chain FOS.

10 So inulin is a series. It's a sucrose 

11 molecule connected with a whole long chain of 

12 fructose molecules which can range from I think two 

13 to 60. And the FOS is the chains between two and 

14 ten. The specific range and it has a specific set 

15 functionality characteristics.

16 The second form of production is from 

17 sucrose where sugar cane or the possibility of 

18 sugar beets extracted and fermented with a 

19 bacteria. The cells are mobilized for high surety 

20 of FOS and can accomplished by creating beads of 

21 that item in calcium alginate. The cells are again 

22 the subject of hydrolysis enzymatically and then 
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1 transfer the fructose chains onto the sucrose 

2 chains.

3 I see Emily raising her hand.

4 MS. BROWN ROSEN: I just want to bring 

5 up a point I don't think is in your summary, but 

6 was in the petitions originally was that both of 

7 those substances were, one of the purposes of them 

8 in the dairy products, as a prebiotic. So that 

9 enabled them to make an enhanced structural, 

10 functional claim about enhanced calcium absorption

11 of the product. And that's the main reason it's 

12 being added. That was the justification.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: It's so much fun to 

14 talk to Tom. Why can't I just have it from organic 

15 sugar cane or sugar beet? Then it could be 

16 organically produced from the organic sugar cane 

17 or sugar beet of which there is plenty available 

18 organically.

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Of sugar cane. Not 

20 of sugar beet. I don't have the answer off the top 

21 of my head on that one. I do know the producer 

22 commented the first time under I think it was the 
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1 market size availability issue on the sugar cane 

2 production method. Chicory inulin is the primary 

3 form of inulin and it's not available in organic 

4 form.

5 Any further discussion on this item?

6 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote on 

7 removing fructooligosaccharides from the National 

8 List.

9 (Vote taken by show of hands)

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Eight yes, six no. 

11 Motion fails.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item on the 

13 National List is galangal frozen. Dr. Brines.

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

15 is included at Section 205.606 of the National List 

16 under I, Galangal Frozen. Thank you.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Galangal frozen, this 

18 product appears to be available in organic and we 

19 have received no further comments speaking to its 

20 unavailability. The item should be removed from 

21 the National List and it was voted to be removed 

22 unanimously from the subcommittee. Any further 
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1 discussion on this item?

2 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote on 

3 removing galangal from the National List.

4 (Vote taken by show of hands)

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is 14 yes, 

6 zero no. The motion passes.

7 MEMBER STONE: Actually, that's 13 yes 

8 and one yes, sir.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you for that 

10 clarification.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item on the 

12 National List is gelatin. Dr. Brines.

13 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

14 substance is included at 205.606 of the National 

15 List under J, Gelatin, CAS number 9000-70-8. 

16 Thanks.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. 

19 Gelatin can come from cows, swine or fish. It's 

20 used in a lot of products as a clarification or 

21 fining agent as a stabilizer or thickener and in 

22 capsules. It may either be an ingredient or a 
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1 processing agent.

2 There is starting to be some organic 

3 gelatin available from cows. But there definitely 

4 is not from fish from reasons we just discussed.

5 In the public comments, we didn't get 

6 that much on gelatin, but clearly we got people who 

7 need gelatin. And the fish gelatin is not 

8 available. And there doesn't seem to be a 

9 consistent or abundant enough supply of organic 

10 gelatin for all the uses.

11 Some people express concerns over the 

12 use of animal gelatin from conventionally raised 

13 animals and the level of contamination that might 

14 be present from conventional practices. However, 

15 there is no specific new evidence that such gelatin 

16 has been identified as harmful in the organic food.

17 We didn't end up doing an ancillary 

18 substance proposal for this which we said we were 

19 probably going to do. We sort of ran out of steam 

20 because we were rather overworked this summer. 

21 But one of the ancillary substances is 

22 sodium hexametaphosphate which is used for 
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1 cross-linking which I don't really know what that 

2 means. But we may once we work out ancillary 

3 substances be bringing a proposal for this at a 

4 future time.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

6 discussion on this item?

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: Just anecdotal 

8 comment that it appears that beef bones anyway 

9 which are now en vogue or all in fashion are being 

10 saved from grass fed and from organic animals and 

11 being so identified.

12 So I'm just saying that there's a trend 

13 to spread and save organic bones. And we sell out 

14 all the time our bones. And we have processors 

15 wanting to buy bones. So there is a market there.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further comments? 

17 Discussion?

18 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. The 

19 motion is to remove gelatin from the National List.

20 (Vote taken by show of hands)

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was three yes, 

22 nine no, two abstentions. The motion fails.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item are 

2 gums, arabic, carob bean, guar, locust bean. 

3 These will be heard as one item. Dr. Brines.

4 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

5 is included at Section 205.606 of the National List 

6 at K as gums, water extracted only, arabic, guar, 

7 locust bean and carob bean. Thanks.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. This 

10 listing for gums has four different names that 

11 refer to three different products, because locust 

12 bean and carob bean are two names for the same 

13 botanical plant. It is, I think. unfortunate. 

14 This is one of the very early ones, as I mentioned, 

15 that was put on the National List from the 

16 beginning. And it's sort of unfortunate that it's 

17 on there in a combined listing. But these items 

18 have very wide variety of uses as binders and 

19 thickening agents in a very wide variety of foods. 

20 What the problem becomes is that guar and locust 

21 bean gum are pretty common now in organic form, 

22 whereas gum arabic is absolutely not available.
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1 I, who am a diligent label reader 

2 because of my allergies, only saw organic gum 

3 arabic on one product for the first time in the last 

4 month and have never seen it before. While I think 

5 we're getting close to removing guar and locust 

6 bean the work that would be involved in the 

7 cumbersome process of separating these things on 

8 the National List and only removing some of them 

9 has prevented me from doing this, but we would 

10 entertain future petitions to remove those two of 

11 the gums.

12 But in the meantime because gum arabic 

13 is necessary and has some different 

14 characteristics than the other two, I'm 

15 recommending keeping them on the list. Public 

16 comments were generally favorable, although of 

17 course they pointed out, too, the dangers of 

18 conventional agriculture, the alternatives that 

19 come from seaweed or microorganisms to make gums 

20 and the fact that a combination of gums is often 

21 needed in a product rather than just one single gum.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Francis.
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1 MEMBER THICKE: We used on our dairy 

2 processing for a saucer product we use organic guar 

3 gum and locust bean gum. And we don't use arabic. 

4 But I think you're right. They should be separated 

5 out because we never had any trouble getting these 

6 other organic. 

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any other discussion? 

8 Colehour.

9 MEMBER BONDERA: From what I heard 

10 these should be separated, but we would await a 

11 public system to do, or we could pursue it from 

12 inside the NOSB.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Someone in NOSB

15 totally could do it. I have my priority list for 

16 the next semester, and this has just not risen to 

17 the top. But someone else is welcome to do it.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

19 discussion? Colehour.

20 MEMBER BONDERA: I apologize. I am 

21 not sure I do or don't understand the system very 

22 well. But I hereby request that this go back to 
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1 the subcommittee or go to the subcommittee with a 

2 request to put on their internal work agenda to 

3 pursue that change that we just discussed. Thank 

4 you.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I will raise that with 

6 the subcommittee. Any further discussion on this 

7 item?

8 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. The 

9 motion coming from the subcommittee is a motion to 

10 remove gums, arabic, carob bean, guar and locust 

11 bean from the National List.

12 (Vote taken by show of hands)

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was zero yes, 

14 fourteen no. The motion fails.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item on the 

16 national list is inulin-oligofructose enriched. 

17 Dr. Brines.

18 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

19 substance is included in Section 205.606 of the 

20 National List under L, Inulin-oligofructose 

21 enriched, CAS number 9005-80-5. Thank you.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Inulin-oligofructose 
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1 enriched is the second of the inulin products on 

2 the National List. It's a nondigestible 

3 carbohydrate that's used to increase calcium 

4 availability and adsorption as a soluble dietary 

5 fiber and is a noncaloric sweetener. It also has 

6 functional effects on texture in food. It's used 

7 in many foods including yogurts, bake goods, 

8 candies, jams and other dairy products.

9 The oligofructose is another name for 

10 FOS, the same item that we just voted upon. So this 

11 is in essence inulin enriched with FOS. Organic 

12 inulin is available from agave from some suppliers 

13 out of Mexico. Given the availability of organic 

14 inulin and the separate listing for FOS, 

15 information from certifiers of operations that 

16 they have switched to organic inulin and the 

17 absence of information on the lack of availability, 

18 no comments seeking for this item remain.

19 The handling subcommittee recommends 

20 this item can be removed from the National List at 

21 this time. Is there any further discussion?

22 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote.
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1 (Vote taken by show of hands)

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was 14 yes, 

3 zero no. The motion passes.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is kelp. 

5 Dr. Brines.

6 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

7 substance is included at Section 205.606 of the 

8 National List at M, Kelp, for use only as a 

9 thickener and dietary supplement. Thanks.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Kelp is a term for 

12 seaweeds belonging to the group algae phaeophyceae 

13 in order of laminariales. It's been very 

14 confusing for the listing as we've discussed both 

15 in public comments and various discussions among 

16 the Board that this gives us a wide range and we're 

17 not very clear about which version of kelp we're 

18 talking about. But it does generally refer to the 

19 seaweeds belonging to the brown algae.

20 There are some other edible kelps in 

21 different families, sometimes called kombu, 

22 sometimes not. Again, it points out the point of 
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1 needing to be a little more clear on specific Latin 

2 names.

3 Public comment was mixed, with some 

4 citing the importance of material and long history 

5 of use, while others expressed concerns regarding 

6 the accumulation of pollutants and heavy metals and 

7 the potential for overharvesting. One group 

8 suggested the Board consider an annotation 

9 requiring testing for contaminants and suggested 

10 the handling subcommittee investigated while wild 

11 crafted, organic kelp would be available. 

12 Finally, one commenter suggested the consideration 

13 of kelp as a flavoring meaning to expand its 

14 annotation from specifically for use only as a 

15 thickener and dietary supplement.

16 As we've discussed on various other 

17 products, again with the sea product like this, it 

18 feels like we're sort of picking and choosing with 

19 the difficulty with being consistent with our 

20 application. So, again, we've had discussions 

21 about maybe having more systems approached, global 

22 conversation if you will about the sea products. 
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1 Thank you.

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

3 discussion on this item? Jean.

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: An amusing piece of 

5 trivial, but maybe not so trivial, is that the cows 

6 for example the kelp that you give them, it has to 

7 be organic in their feed. But for humans 

8 apparently, okay, it's not. Just want to mention 

9 that.

10 I have a great deal of trouble voting 

11 to keep this word kelp on the list because it lacks 

12 the necessary scientific basis. We don't know 

13 what the Latin names of all the species are, and 

14 it's broadly used differently and interpreted 

15 differently in different parts of the world. And 

16 it includes many, many hundreds and hundreds of 

17 species.

18 I realize that whatever happens we are 

19 going to take all these seaweedy, fish things back 

20 to the subcommittee and determine more 

21 holistically for across all the subcommittees how 

22 we can best deal with them. But it's very hard for 
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1 me to vote to keep something with such an incredibly 

2 broad, non-specific category. I know that's how 

3 it was put it, but scientifically I tell I just 

4 don't know that I can do it.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Francis, 

6 then Zea.

7 MEMBER THICKE: I was going to say the 

8 same thing Jean did that recently it's become 

9 required to have organic kelp for livestock and I 

10 can buy it by the 50 pound bag of pellets and not 

11 have any trouble with availability. So I don't 

12 know if anybody can clarify that why we need to have

13 it available in 606 for humans.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: I can't clarify 

16 that, but I can clarify one point Jean made which 

17 is the woman from Cornell who testified about the 

18 ascophyllum overharvesting yesterday, I talked 

19 with her after at the break.

20 She did make it clear to me that the word 

21 kelp scientifically does mean laminariales. 

22 That's the exact order that Tracy mentioned. And 
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1 that all scientists do understand when you say kelp 

2 that means that. And that also they grow a foot 

3 a day. So there isn't the overharvesting problems 

4 that there is with species of ascophyllum she was 

5 talking about in most situations where it's 

6 harvested from.

7 So I realize that the vernacular kelp 

8 doesn't just refer to the scientific name. But 

9 scientifically what it says here is correct 

10 according to this one thing.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So I have I think 

12 Emily wants to speak and then Nick and then Jean.

13 MS. BROWN ROSEN: The reason it has to 

14 be organic for livestock feed is that it's class 

15 here is agricultural. And livestock does not have 

16 an allowance for commercial availability of 

17 agricultural items. So that's where it is from.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Nick.

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: Speaking up on 

20 behalf of livestock farmers and my herd, don't take 

21 our organic kelp away and give it to humans.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Ashley.
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1 MEMBER SWAFFAR: I have a question on 

2 the handler scientist. Do you know if the kelp 

3 that's available in organic form for livestock can 

4 even be used in the forms that handlers are using 

5 it?

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I don't know the 

7 answer to that question. I will make the same 

8 comment that I made before as Nick makes an 

9 interesting point. I don't believe we got a good 

10 amount of data on availability of organic versus 

11 nonorganic and the market demand.

12 But human-consumed foods can generally 

13 afford a higher price than feed. So if the 

14 availability is not there, then you may not be able 

15 to buy your kelp anymore by the pallet-load.

16 MEMBER MARAVELL: And I might add that 

17 the price of kelp goes up and down during the year 

18 depending on its availability. It doesn't go up 

19 and down a whole heck of a lot, but it's not like 

20 this constant price. So I know there are minor 

21 availability issues.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: But I have no 
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1 information. Zea.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: I did not see public 

3 comment this round concerning organic kelp in 

4 particular like whether it was a form that they 

5 needed for their thickening agent that didn't exist 

6 organically or whether they couldn't get organic. 

7 Did I miss some, Tracy or anyone? Was there 

8 specific comment that I didn't notice?

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: No, I didn't see 

10 anything specifically. Most of the comments I 

11 received were from the first round.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Anything further? 

13 Lisa.

14 MEMBER DE LIMA: Question for Jean. 

15 If it did have the scientific name, then would you 

16 lean towards keeping it on there because it would 

17 be up to the inspector to verify that they're unable 

18 to get it organically and thereby are using the 

19 nonorganic? And right now they just can't do due 

20 diligence is what you're saying.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, I'm still not 

22 convinced that when the word kelp is used. I 
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1 understand the laminariales group pretty well. 

2 But it's being gathered and harvested and comes in, 

3 that doesn't necessarily mean that all the stuff 

4 that's in that group called kelp is going to be in 

5 fact in the laminaria group. It's going to be a 

6 broader range of things.

7 So I don't think that we've really been 

8 sufficiently specific in saying that by this we 

9 only mean these species. If it had the Latin 

10 names, I'd feel a lot more comfortable about it 

11 because I don't think you can just sort of say it's 

12 just laminaria because that isn't really how it's 

13 practically done in the field when the fishermen 

14 go out. Ah, it's all kelp. I mean we haven't been 

15 as fussy about it as we ought to be.

16 And I know that some of the kelp, some 

17 of the individual laminaria that are those nice 

18 broad ones with those spikes, the grow really fast. 

19 I've seen them bombing it on the coast of Maine. 

20 It grows incredibly fast in season bays. So it is 

21 possible and it could be encouraged to be actually 

22 grown under organic conditions when we have of 
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1 course the aquatic standards all passed and so 

2 forth. 

3 I think I just want to see the Latin 

4 names for all these seaweeds. That's what I want 

5 to see to be sure that we can verify that actually 

6 it is in the right group when we go out there and 

7 look at it. We know that the seaweeds all over 

8 these shores all over the place are all being 

9 differentially overharvested in different areas.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Mac.

11 MEMBER STONE: I guess I'm having 

12 trouble. If it is readily available organic for 

13 livestock feed, it seems like it would be available 

14 for human feed. I guess if it does stay on the list 

15 that maybe when the committee is looking at all 

16 these things a little translation of this is used 

17 only as a thickener and dietary supplement. It 

18 doesn't say or. So that means it would have to have 

19 a dual purpose. A little translation of that 

20 annotation.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. And I'm 

22 similarly concerned that you consume human feed.
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1 MEMBER STONE: You were in Kentucky 

2 last year.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Tracy.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: So might we consider 

5 this being something that we wanted to add 

6 hopefully a fairly quick work agenda item to add 

7 some Latin names for clarity for that. Would you 

8 be comfortable with that? Do we need to do that 

9 as a subcommittee?

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I see that as part 

11 of that general discussion that we're going to have 

12 to look at various forms to decide if we need TRs 

13 for this range. It's like you said. The whole 

14 system look at all these fish products to be sure 

15 that we're asking the right sort of questions and 

16 if necessary have a TR which looks like we would 

17 do and also to have some annotations.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

19 discussion on this item? Colehour.

20 MEMBER BONDERA: I apologize for my 

21 ignorance and unpreparedness. Jean, maybe you or 

22 somebody else can clarify for me or maybe Lisa can. 
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1 This item which is 606 M in which there is a 

2 statement in your recommendation that suggests the 

3 confusion might need to lead to changes in what 

4 these different list things, et cetera, are.

5 We are not voting on this one on it's 

6 completely separate from 606 Y. Okay. They are 

7 totally different even though the words in here are 

8 the same.

9 It depends on what -- I'm sorry.

10 (Off microphone comment)

11 Right, but wakame is listed as -- maybe 

12 I'm not reading it right -- I guess there is some 

13 confusion. It doesn't say it is that, right? So 

14 it's just the confusion is the problem, not that 

15 it is wakame.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes.

17 MEMBER BONDERA: It refers to wakame. 

18 It's not saying it is wakame.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Right. When I was 

20 doing the research on the different varieties 

21 trying to look at kombu versus wakame versus kelp 

22 even the literature is a little confused about it. 
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1 So I had to keep digging a little further to find 

2 out which specifically was being referred to. 

3 And, yes, it is confusing.

4 MEMBER BONDERA: So this one M is not 

5 wakame.

6 MEMBER BONDERA: That's correct. 

7 This one is called kelp. There's a separate 

8 listing for wakame.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Mac.

10 MEMBER STONE: I am going to vote to 

11 keep this on because I can trust the processors and 

12 certifiers to use the organic version because 

13 they're required to if it's available. And if it's 

14 readily available, the system still works rather 

15 than make a decision if there is a slight difference 

16 and we were to take away a tool.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

18 discussion on this item?

19 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. The 

20 motion comes from the subcommittee to remove kelp 

21 from the National List.

22 (Vote taken by show of hands)
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was four yes, 

2 eight no, two abstentions. The motion fails.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

4 konjac flour. Dr. Brines.

5 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Konjac flour 

6 is included at Section 205.606 of the National List 

7 under N as Konjac Flour, CAS number 37220-17-0. 

8 Thank you.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Konjac flour is used 

10 in traditional Asian foods for its consistency and 

11 thickening capabilities. It comes from a yam 

12 called the elephant yam. There is some foreign 

13 availability, but searches of products grown 

14 aboard is somewhat difficult as equivalency 

15 agreements are not searchable in the organic 

16 integrity database. And I will take this moment 

17 to encourage the program to continue to invest in 

18 the organic integrity database including 

19 researching equivalencies as part of that system.

20 One processor spoke in support of this 

21 material as a potential or future product 

22 development. And a trade association spoke in 
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1 support of the material noting that the foreign 

2 supply concerns provided no data. And they had 

3 noted that they had not investigated those supply 

4 ordinance specifically.

5 This motion comes with a recommendation 

6 from the subcommittee to remove this item from the 

7 National List. Any further discussion? I should 

8 say it was a split vote four yes, three no. Zea.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: I thought I was the 

10 lead on this one since I wrote this part.

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I'm so sorry. I had 

12 it on my name.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Nonetheless, I 

14 guess those people who voted to remove it went to 

15 those websites and thought that was a reliable 

16 supply of organic sourcing. I did not feel that. 

17 However, I guess it's also not widely used in 

18 organic food because we didn't hear very much 

19 public comment on it.

20 But I feel like this is a valuable item. 

21 Konjac flour, if it starts being used, maybe it's 

22 a soluble prebiotic fiber that diabetics can use. 
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1 I mean, I know diabetics could use it because it 

2 doesn't cause a blood sugar spike which is the main 

3 reason that it is widely used in weight loss 

4 supplements.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

6 discussion on this item?

7 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote of 

8 removing konjac flour from the National List.

9 (Vote taken by show of hands)

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was nine yes, 

11 five no. Motion fails.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item on the 

13 National List is lecithin, de-oiled.

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

15 is included on Section 205.606 of the National List 

16 under O, Lecithin, de-oiled. Thank you.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea, this time I'll 

18 let you read your own material.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Lecithin is 

20 a very widely used ingredient in food, emulsifier 

21 dispersing agent and to reduce hydration property 

22 of powders in water and milk products. It occurs 
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1 naturally in several foods such as egg yolks and 

2 soybeans.

3 Historically, it's been produced 

4 commercially from primarily soybeans. But there 

5 are now alternative sources available from 

6 sunflower, canola and other crops.

7 In 2009, the NOSB corrected the listing 

8 for lecithin by removing lecithin bleached from 

9 205.605(b) and adding it to 205.606 in the de-oiled 

10 form only. This also corrected the terminology in 

11 how lecithin is referred to.

12 Fluid form of lecithin widely available 

13 from organic soybean, but the defiled form we heard 

14 conflicting testimony at the spring meeting and at 

15 this meeting. We heard that there was a supplier 

16 of organic defiled soy lecithin who has had plenty 

17 of organic lecithin for the last two years. That 

18 commenter stated that the resistance is mostly a 

19 matter of convenience and price.

20 Many companies who use lecithin however 

21 stated there was consistency of supply issues, that 

22 they were reluctant to rely on just one supplier 
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1 for such an important ingredient. And there are 

2 unique functionalities that are not achieved 

3 either by liquid lecithin or other powder lecithin. 

4 So they need to have the particular nonorganic 

5 lecithin.

6 Furthermore, there was no public 

7 comment at the spring meeting that sunflower or 

8 other lecithins were available as organic. The 

9 commenter here yesterday said that they are moving 

10 towards organic sunflower lecithin which did not 

11 convince me that there is organic sunflower 

12 lecithin readily available, preferably from more 

13 than one supplier.

14 I think progress is being made in moving 

15 forward towards organic lecithin. And a petition 

16 could be refiled to let lecithin into soy and other 

17 forms of lecithin and to remove the soy lecithin 

18 potentially. But this was beyond the scope of me 

19 being able to tackle in a sunset review. And as 

20 someone who would rely on the sunflower lecithin 

21 or non-soy lecithin I feel that this needs to stay 

22 on the National List.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Do we have any 

2 discussion of this item? Mac.

3 MEMBER STONE: I spoke with several 

4 certifiers and they said there is various uses at 

5 different times of the year, availability and 

6 different forms. So it was expressed to me that 

7 there's reason to keep it on 606.

8 MEMBER BONDERA: I'm sorry. I didn't 

9 hear your last clause. There's what on 606? I'm 

10 sorry.

11 MEMBER STONE: To keep this material 

12 available on 606.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So I have Francis and 

14 then Jean, then myself.

15 MEMBER THICKE: I think that the 

16 suppliers that we have of defiled lecithin are sort 

17 of in a catch-22. They've been on hold for a while 

18 here and now saying they can supply the U.S. market 

19 with soy lecithin. But until it's taken off 606 

20 they really are caught because people are buying 

21 it elsewhere because it's conventional.

22 And they also told us they could gear 
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1 up substantially in that there are other plants 

2 around the world that are coming online for soy and 

3 more than one plant for sunflower. So it seems to 

4 me that we need to take initiative to get this thing 

5 going so that they can gear up and we can keep going 

6 forward.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean. Do you want to 

8 respond to that, Zea?

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, the more than 

10 one plant for sunflower was not necessarily online 

11 yet. He said they're moving towards it.

12 MEMBER THICKE: Correct. But there's 

13 almost two years before sunset.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. Zea, do you 

16 think that this would be one of those ones that we 

17 should send to the subcommittee so that we could 

18 propose an annotation to separate the two forms? 

19 Because I think what you're saying is it makes 

20 logical sense it would be better to have the 

21 lecithin separated into soy as opposed to 

22 sunflower.
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1 Yes. So we will ask the Chair to bring 

2 that one up as well.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I also want to note 

4 that the one plant that the commenter noted was in 

5 Ukraine which is a country in the midst of a civil 

6 war and occupation. Not exactly a country I'd say 

7 has strong availability requirements.

8 Any further discussion?

9 MEMBER SWAFFAR: I'd just like to say 

10 I support going back to subcommittee with that 

11 annotation change.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes.

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, I think we 

14 should recognize that there might be a variety of 

15 oil seed crops, not just sunflower, but canola and 

16 others. When you go back to subcommittee on this 

17 make it flexible enough because I'm sure if we 

18 expand the market the American producers will come 

19 up with a supply.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Just one brief 

22 comment in response to Francis' comment, I actually 
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1 agree with you except that, given that it's on 606, 

2 this company that says they're waiting for demand, 

3 if they provide the product in organic form and it's 

4 commercially available, producers are required to 

5 use it. So I don't know that taking it off 606 is 

6 truly a barrier to him having increased demand, 

7 because the demand would be there anyway.

8 MEMBER THICKE: I wonder about if 

9 they're really using it. And I want to first of 

10 all thank Tom for this nice clip art here. But then 

11 I look on the box and it's organic. But there are 

12 two listings for lecithin, and one is starred that 

13 it's organic and one is starred that's not organic. 

14 I'm not sure exactly why that would be. One is 

15 starred and one is not starred, yes.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: It's an excellent 

17 question. They're both subingredients of an 

18 ingredient that we purchase. I can't answer your 

19 question at this time. But I'd be happy to follow 

20 up with my product development team and get back 

21 to you.

22 Any further discussion?
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1 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. It 

2 comes to us from the subcommittee as a motion to 

3 remove lecithin de-oiled from the National List.

4 (Vote taken by show of hands)

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is five 

6 yes, nine no. The motion fails.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. And I can 

8 actually answer that question now. I looked at the 

9 ingredient panel further. The product that does 

10 not have organic lecithin has country of origin as 

11 Europe. And Europe has an equivalency with the 

12 U.S. Europe does not require organic lecithin.

13 Moving on the list, lemongrass.

14 DR. BRINES: This substance is 

15 included at Section 205.606 of the National List 

16 at P as Lemongrass Frozen. Thank you.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Lemongrass -- this is 

18 very short -- frozen, sufficient supply. Should be 

19 removed. Any further discussion on this item?

20 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote to 

21 remove lemongrass frozen from the National List.

22 (Vote taken by show of hands)
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is 14 yes, 

2 zero no. The motion passes.

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

4 orange pulp, dried.

5 DR. BRINES: This substance is 

6 included at Section 205.606 on the National List 

7 under Q as Orange Pulp, Dried. Thanks.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: This substance is 

9 also known as citrus fiber. We received no comments 

10 the first round. This round received a comment 

11 from the producer and patent holder of this 

12 product. So there is only one manufacturer of this 

13 product.

14 He made a fairly convincing argument in 

15 the web-based testimony that this product is not 

16 commercially available in organic. And they did 

17 say that the product is used in organic 

18 applications. However, no member of the industry 

19 spoke up in support of this material.

20 This item comes to us from the 

21 subcommittee with a recommendation to remove. 

22 I'll open it up for further discussion at this time. 
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1 Harold.

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: Sitting on this Board 

3 as a handler representative because we did have 

4 testimony asking us to keep this during the oral 

5 testimony, I'm going to go ahead and change my vote 

6 as this came out of subcommittee and support its 

7 continued listing.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

9 discussion? Yes, Zea.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: I also thought that 

11 the written input from the manufacturer was very 

12 well-crafted and a thorough explanation which we 

13 like to see in public comment. And I think they 

14 mentioned how many customers they had or gave some 

15 indication of how much volume was going out into 

16 the organic community.

17 So I'm also going to change my vote to 

18 keep it on the list.

19 MEMBER SWAFFAR: I'm also going to 

20 change my vote. I believe we heard in the 

21 webinar -- that manufacturer was on there -- in the 

22 entire year's worth of orange juice or oranges that 
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1 they process would take them not even an hour in 

2 their plant to make pulp. And there wasn't enough 

3 down time to make that worth it to do an actual 

4 organic run. And the supply wasn't there to match 

5 what our organic stakeholders need.

6 It made a lot of sense. I think they 

7 gave some really great public comment.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I'm somewhat on the 

9 fence on this item because I agree that there's no 

10 question that this product is not commercially 

11 available in organic. My problem comes with the 

12 fact that our only source of input on this is the 

13 manufacturer of it. And I know industry spoke up 

14 in support.

15 However, I guess if you look at it that 

16 way, if no one is using it and it remains on the 

17 list, then what harm could it do? Nick.

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: It does say that the 

19 constituent parts do seem to be available in 

20 organic form if you wanted to create.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: In our writing, 

22 that's what we wrote. But both the written and 
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1 public comment made it quite clear that if you 

2 summed up the entirety of the Florida orange crop, 

3 it would not even amount to a half of day's run for 

4 them to produce this product.

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: Thank you for that 

6 clarification.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes. Jean.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Do we have any idea 

9 why we didn't get anything from trade to let us know 

10 how much this is being used?

11 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The first run we also 

12 threatened to remove it which why I think we got 

13 the comment from the manufacturer. Any further 

14 discussion?

15 Hearing none, we'll move to a vote. 

16 This comes as a motion to remove orange pulp, dry 

17 from the National List.

18 (Vote taken by show of hands)

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I have five yes, 

20 seven no, two abstentions. The motion fails.

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

22 orange shellac. Dr. Brines.
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1 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

2 substance is included at Section 205.606 of the 

3 National List under R, Orange Shellac, Unbleached, 

4 CAS number 9000-59-3. Thanks.

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Orange 

7 shellac is a purified product of the natural resin 

8 lac which is the hardened secretion of the insect 

9 Kerria lacca. It's used in the coating for fruit 

10 and vegetables as well as a confectionary glaze. 

11 A new TR was requested for this to provide updated 

12 information and to look at ancillary substances. 

13 Similar to other waxes, it is primarily used in 

14 combination with carnauba and wood rosin.

15 There is the same concern about 

16 labeling and consumers would be especially eager 

17 to know that their oranges are coated with beetle 

18 juice along with tree resin. But most public 

19 comment was in favor of keeping the coatings on the 

20 National List. And new information was not 

21 provided of concern about the criteria.

22 No ancillary substances were suggested 
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1 for the raw ingredients. But ancillaries may be 

2 used once it is formulated with the other coating 

3 agent.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any additional 

5 discussion on this item? Jean.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Is the main purpose 

7 of this as with the other waxes? I mean the main 

8 purpose of this is really to make them look pretty, 

9 shiny, attract the consumer.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: The main purpose in 

11 general is transpiration blocker to make them stop 

12 losing moisture as fast. And then they keep 

13 better. This one though is more shiny which is why 

14 it's used in confectionary as well.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So this one is a 

16 little bit different then, Zea, from the other 

17 inasmuch as it's not used really just for the 

18 prevention of the transpiration. It's more as a 

19 decorative, something nice to have on it. 

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, I think it's 

21 more that --

22 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Is it necessary?
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: That depends. I 

2 mean the cloudy nature of the other two -- they 

3 differ somewhat, in that I'm forgetting the TR 

4 exactly. But they make the fruit look unnaturally 

5 dull. And so to bring it back to what it should 

6 look like, you want to put the shiny one in with 

7 it.

8 I don't know. Are people going to buy 

9 an orange if it looks all coated with rosin compared 

10 to nice and shiny? I do feel that to make the 

11 formulated wax products all at least two or three 

12 of the waxes are necessary.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I also like the notes 

14 of used in confectionary glaze as well.

15 Any further discussions on this item?

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'll just add one 

17 point that of the commercial formulations out there 

18 far more of them are the combination of carnauba 

19 and shellac, and the wood rosin is used less 

20 frequently. 

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any other discussion 

22 on this item?
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1 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote. It 

2 comes to us as a motion to remove this item, orange 

3 shellac, unbleached from the National List.

4 (Vote taken by show of hands)

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is zero 

6 yes, 13 no, one abstention. The motion fails.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

8 pectin, non-amidated forms only. Dr. Brines.

9 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

10 is included at Section 205.606 of the National List 

11 under S, Pectin, Non-Amidated Forms Only.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Pectin is 

14 extracted from citrus and pommes fruit, but there 

15 is no organic source yet of extracted pectin. It's 

16 used as a gelling agent for jams, preserves, 

17 fillings and other product. It's a very desirable 

18 ingredient in organic food because it allows food 

19 to gel with less sugar than would be used without 

20 it. And the excess sugar has potential for more 

21 new negative human health effects than pectin.

22 It was widely supported in public 
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1 comment from users especially at the first posting. 

2 And we got some additional comment, but not a lot 

3 for this meeting. No negative comments were 

4 received with substantive information on why 

5 pectin would not meet the criteria.

6 Ancillary substances used in pectin 

7 include sugar and dextrose for standardizing 

8 products and trisodium citrate or other salt 

9 buffers as described in the 2015 TR. And a 

10 separate ancillary substance proposal will be 

11 considered.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

13 discussion on this item?

14 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote of 

15 removing pectin, non-amidated forms only from the 

16 National List.

17 (Vote taken by show of hands)

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was zero yes, 

19 14 no. The motion fails.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Next on the list is 

21 peppers, chipotle chili.

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 
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1 substance is included at Section 205.606 of the 

2 National List under T, Peppers, Chipotle Chili. 

3 Thanks.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Sufficient supply and 

5 should be removed. Any further discussion?

6 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote for 

7 removing peppers, chipotle chili, from the 

8 National List.

9 (Vote taken by show of hands)

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was 14 yes, 

11 zero no. The motion passes.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item on the 

13 list is seaweed, Pacific kombu. Dr. Brines.

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

15 substance is included at Section 205.606 of the 

16 National List under U, Seaweed, Pacific Kombu. 

17 Thanks.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Tracy.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: This is another one 

20 of our problem children in the sea products, kombus 

21 and edible kelp belonging to the family 

22 Laminariaceae. Public comment was mixed, with 
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1 some citing the importance of the material and long 

2 history of use again, while others expressed 

3 concerns regarding the accumulation of glutants 

4 and heavy metals and potential for overharvesting.

5 One group suggested the Board consider 

6 an annotation requiring testing for contaminants 

7 and suggests the handling subcommittee investigate 

8 whether wild crafted organic would be available. 

9 Again, I think this is another one of those products 

10 where we need a global approach and some 

11 clarification around which family is included.

12 I should note that the Board was 

13 unanimous. Well, six no for removal, one absent 

14 in the subcommittee vote.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

16 discussion of this item? Jean.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: In essence this is 

18 a duplicative listing since we've already voted on 

19 kelp, and it's in the Laminaria group.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: It has a different 

21 annotation or no annotation where the other one is 

22 annotated to specific usages. Mac.
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1 MEMBER STONE: This says it's 90 

2 percent cultivated or farmed. Do we know if that's 

3 organic, certified, cultivated farming and only 10 

4 percent is not available?

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: No, I don't know 

6 that.

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

8 discussion?

9 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote on 

10 seaweed, Pacific kombu. The motion comes to us as 

11 a motion to remove seaweed, Pacific Kombu, from the 

12 National List.

13 (Vote taken by show of hands)

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is one yes, 

15 11 no, two abstentions. The motion fails.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item is 

17 starches, corn starch native and sweet potato. 

18 We'll be concerned with these at the same time. 

19 Dr. Brines.

20 DR. BRINES: Thank you. These 

21 substances are included under 205.606 of the 

22 National List under V, Starches, as (1) corn starch 
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1 native and (2) sweet potato starch for being a 

2 thread production only. Thanks.

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: Starches are used 

4 in many foods as thickeners, formulation aids, 

5 bulking agents and moisture adsorption agents. 

6 Corn starch is generally made from special strains 

7 of corn that are high on amylose and amylopectin. 

8 Sweet potato starch is specifically used as a 

9 formulation aid for bean thread production.

10 There is an organic corn starch on the 

11 market, but it is not suitable for all uses. And 

12 I describe a little bit about the type of corn 

13 starches, the type of corn, which is a special 

14 strain of corn that is grown for this purpose and 

15 it has to be non-GMO because it has to be identity 

16 proved for the high amylose content. So it is not 

17 genetically engineered. I'm sure it is tested to 

18 make sure it's high enough in amylose and therefore 

19 free of GMOs.

20 We heard from a supplying company and 

21 a trade association that there isn't enough supply 

22 of organic moldy corn starch or the special, very 
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1 high amylose content or strains with this property.

2 No public comments were received 

3 concerning other criteria other than a concern over 

4 GMOs in corn starch. We have heard for this 

5 meeting a suggestion that corn starch be annotated 

6 to list those specific properties which someone may 

7 want to do in the future. Or a petition could come 

8 in for that. But it's not on my priority work plan 

9 to work on. I don't even know what moldy corn 

10 starch except it's moldy instead of molding. But 

11 I'm sure Tom knows because he knows that kind of 

12 thing.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

14 discussion on this item? Emily.

15 MS. BROWN ROSEN: I believe the molding 

16 refers to they use that starch to make molds for 

17 gummy bears and other kinds of confections.

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: That's correct.

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: I'm hoping to learn 

20 something here. Zea, why does it say corn starch 

21 and then in parentheses, native, just out of 

22 curiosity?
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I can help with that 

2 one. So there are multiple forms of corn starch. 

3 You can have a modified starch. Native is an 

4 unmodified starch.

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: That's right. I 

6 remember now. The modified starch has been 

7 treated with some amount of chemicals and is not 

8 acceptable in organic.

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further questions 

10 on this?

11 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote of 

12 removing starches, corn starch native, and sweet 

13 potato.

14 (Vote taken by show of hands)

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was two 

16 yes, 12 no. The motion fails.

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: All right. The final 

18 three. Turkish bay leaves. Dr. Brines.

19 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

20 is included in Section 205.606 of the National List 

21 under X, Turkish bay leaves. Thanks.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Turkish 
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1 bay leaves, no new information since the last 

2 meeting. One comment to note, that the supply is 

3 fragile. But market data reports a fairly robust 

4 supply with multiple product origins.

5 I was the lead on this material and 

6 reached out to three spice companies that noted 

7 multiple countries of origin. And no supply 

8 issues with Turkish bay leaves. But they also 

9 chose not to submit public comments here.

10 The handling subcommittee recommended 

11 removal of this item by a vote of seven to zero. 

12 Any further discussion? Mac.

13 MEMBER STONE: I just wanted to take 

14 the opportunity before we get to the very end that 

15 there were several products that graduated off of 

16 606 here today. And I think it's a testament, too, 

17 that 606 works because certifiers and processors 

18 and growers are working to achieve. There is 

19 incentive to source and grow organic products and 

20 meet the needs of 606. Just before we got to the 

21 end, I just wanted to thank certifiers in that 606 

22 works as messy as it is.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any further 

2 discussion of this item?

3 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote of 

4 removing Turkish bay leaves from the National List.

5 (Vote taken by show of hands)

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was 14 yes, 

7 zero no. The motion passes.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next is wakame 

9 seaweed. Dr. Brines.

10 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

11 substance is included at 205.606 of the National 

12 List under Y as Wakame Seaweed, Undaria 

13 pinnatifida. Thanks.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Tracy.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. The final of 

16 our problem children, wakame edible seaweed. Most 

17 often served in soups and salads. Native to cold, 

18 temperate coastal regions, but has 

19 recently -- Coastal regions of Japan, Korea and 

20 China -- but has recently expanded to New Zealand, 

21 the United States, France, Great Britain, Italy, 

22 Spain, Argentina and Australia.
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1 Just as a note of trivial it was 

2 nominated as one of the ten worst invasive species 

3 in the world. So I don't think we have an 

4 overexploitation problem.

5 It was actually petitioned back in 

6 2007. The petitioner stated that while other 

7 organic seaweeds were available they did not 

8 provide the same flavor profile and could not be 

9 used in incident for which it was being petitioned 

10 as an ingredient. Hence, a new variety.

11 Public comment did suggest concerns 

12 over overharvesting and ecosystem degradation. 

13 One commenter did object to continued listing of 

14 wakame citing that all nonorganic agricultural 

15 ingredients should be eliminated from the National 

16 List. One group did suggest the Board consider an 

17 annotation requiring testing for contaminants and 

18 suggests that the handling subcommittee 

19 investigate whether wild crafted, organic would be 

20 available.

21 The motion to retain was six to retain 

22 on the list and one absent.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Any additional 

2 discussion on this item?

3 Seeing none, we'll move to a vote of 

4 removing wakame seaweed from the National List.

5 (Vote taken by show of hands)

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was one yes, 12 

7 no, one abstention. The motion fails.

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The last item is whey 

9 protein concentrate. Dr. Brines.

10 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This last 

11 item is on Section 205.606 at Z, Whey Protein 

12 Concentrate. Thanks.

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Really 

14 simple on this one again. Sufficient supply of 

15 this item should be removed from the National List. 

16 Any further discussion?

17 Seeing none, we move to a vote on 

18 removing whey protein concentrate from the 

19 National List.

20 (Vote taken by show of hands)

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was 14 yes, 

22 zero no. The motion passes.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: That concludes 2017 

2 sunset review for handling materials. I'm going 

3 to climb under the table and turn the chair back 

4 over to Jean.

5 (Applause)

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. Just 

7 one more day tomorrow. We'll meet back here at 

8 8:30 tomorrow morning. Board Members, we are 

9 meeting downstairs in the main lobby at 6:30 p.m. 

10 Oh, 6:40 p.m. See you tomorrow at 8:30 a.m., 

11 everybody. Off the record.

12 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

13 went off the record at 6:17 p.m.)

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 
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1 
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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

FALL 2015 MEETING

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

OCTOBER 29, 2015

+ + + + +

The Board met in the Pinnacle Room of the Stoweflake 

Conference Center, Stowe, Vermont, at 8:30 a.m., 

Jean Richardson, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT

JEAN RICHARDSON, Chair

TRACY FAVRE, Vice Chair

HAROLD AUSTIN, Secretary (via Skype)

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR J. BONDERA

TOM CHAPMAN

LISA DE LIMA

NICK MARAVELL

ZEA SONNABEND

ROBERT "MAC" STONE

ASHLEY SWAFFAR

JENNIFER TAYLOR, PhD

FRANCIS THICKE, PhD

C. REUBEN WALKER, PhD
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ALSO PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board Specialist, 

National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, National List Manager, National 

Organic Program

EMILY BROWN ROSEN, Agricultural Marketing 

Specialist, National Organic Program

PAUL LEWIS, Director, Standards Division, 

National Organic Program, USDA

SAM JONES, AMS Public Affairs Specialist

MILES MEVOY, Designated Federal Officer, 

Deputy Administrator, National Organic 

Program
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CONTENTS

Livestock Subcommittee

Topics: 2017 Sunset Substances

Alcohols (Ethanol, Isopropanol) ............... 6 

Aspirin ....................................... 9 

Atropine ..................................... 10

Biologics, Vaccines .......................... 11

Butorphanol .................................. 12

Chlorhexidine ................................ 17

Chlorine Materials ........................... 18

Electrolytes ................................. 22

Flunixin ..................................... 23

Furosemide ................................... 25

Glucose ...................................... 27

Glycerin ..................................... 28

Hydrogen peroxide ............................ 30

Iodine ....................................... 31

Magnesium hydroxide .......................... 33

Magnesium sulfate ............................ 34

Oxytocin ..................................... 35

Parasiticides ................................ 36

Peroxyacetic/Peracetic acid .................. 89

Phosphoric acid .............................. 90

Poloxalene ................................... 91

Tolazoline ................................... 96

Xylazine ..................................... 97

Copper sulfate .............................. 101

Formic Acid ................................. 105

Lidocaine ................................... 109

Iodine ...................................... 110

Lime, hydrated .............................. 110

Mineral oil ................................. 112

Procaine .................................... 114

Sucrose octanoate esters .................... 119

Methionine .................................. 122

Trace minerals .............................. 137

Vitamins .................................... 138

EPA List 4 - Inerts of Minimal Concern ...... 149

Excipients .................................. 149

Strychnine .................................. 153
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Materials Subcommittee ...................... 158

Topics:

Proposal: Research Priorities

Proposal: Prevention Strategy Guidance for

Excluded Methods

Policy Development Subcommittee ............. 187

Topics:

Verbal Report: Policy and Procedure Manual

Revisions

Compliance, Accreditation and Certification

Subcommittee ................................ 203

Topics:

Verbal Report: Assessment of Soil Conservation

Practices

Handling Subcommittee ....................... 204

Topics:

Proposal: Laminarian

Proposal: Lignin Sulfonate

Proposal: Sulfuric Acid

Proposal: Seaweed Extracts

Adjourn
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 8:34 a.m.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Good morning 

4 everybody. Good morning, and it's positively hot 

5 out there this morning. I think it's like 54 

6 degrees Fahrenheit, above normal temperature for 

7 this time of year. 

8 Okay, so this morning, we're going to 

9 go into livestock, and they don't have as many 

10 materials as the other two committees, and there's 

11 not much up for removal, so I would imagine it'll 

12 go quite quickly. And so at this time, I will note 

13 for the record that Harold Austin is present from 

14 his desk out there on the West Coast in the late 

15 --- well, middle of the night basically, and I will 

16 turn over the meeting at this point to the Chair 

17 of the Livestock Committee, Tracy Favre.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Good morning, thank 

19 you. We'll just go ahead and jump right in. Our 

20 first material this morning is alcohols ethanol, 

21 which happens to be mine. Dr. Brines?

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 
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1 substance is included at Section 205.603(a) of the 

2 National List as disinfectants, sanitizer and 

3 medical treatments as applicable under 1(I), 

4 ethanol disinfectant in sanitizer only, prohibited 

5 as a feed additive.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, thank you. 

7 Public feedback for this material was 

8 generally in favor of continued listing. The most 

9 common uses were for disinfection of the teat prior 

10 to ---- and prior to testing for bacteria and for 

11 general disinfection. Those that expressed 

12 concerns for re-listing cited concerns regarding 

13 the possibility of GMO sources and questioned 

14 whether sufficient research had been done on 

15 alternatives. 

16 Do we have any discussions on this 

17 material? Seeing none, all those in favor of 

18 removal of ethanol from the National List signify 

19 by raising your hand. Okay, that's all right. 

20 You want --- you had a question, Jennifer?

21 MEMBER TAYLOR: If the Committee is 

22 going to address any of those issues that were 
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1 brought up about the GMO ---

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Well that had come 

3 up in public comment, and we had not --- I mean we 

4 did do the review in committee, but we did not 

5 discuss it and at this time, probably won't be 

6 bringing it back to committee for that.

7 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Are we ready to 

9 vote? Okay, all those in favor of removal of 

10 ethanol from the National List please signify by 

11 raising your hand. Those opposed to delisting? 

12 Okay. Abstentions? Okay. Tom?

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: One yes, 12 no, one 

14 abstention. The motion fails.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay next up on our 

16 list is isopropanol. Dr. Brine?

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

18 is included in Section 205.603(a) of the National 

19 List as disinfectant, sanitizer and medical 

20 treatments as applicable under 1(ii), isopropanol 

21 disinfectant only.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Calvin?
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1 MEMBER WALKER: Thank you Madam Chair. 

2 I'll follow suit the way you just did, be very 

3 brief. Isopropanol is used as a disinfectant 

4 only. In 2010 the full Board voted to renew this 

5 material. The Subcommittee as well voted 6-0 with 

6 two abstentions to renew this material, and we had 

7 a very broad support in the first comment period, 

8 and the second comment period, for relisting this 

9 particular material. And some of the entities in 

10 support were CCOF Crop, IOIA, OPWC, AOD, WODA and 

11 Dr. Hugh Karreman.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Discussion?

13 MEMBER THICKE: Just a clarification 

14 that we voted to relist it, not remove it in full. 

15 It's confusing because nowadays yes is the new no.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, that's true. 

17 Thank you. 

18 Any discussion? Okay seeing none, all 

19 those in favor of removal of isopropanol please 

20 raise your hand. Those opposed to removal? 

21 Abstentions? Okay. Tom?

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: One yes, 12 no, one 
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1 absent. The motion fails.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay next up on our 

3 list is aspirin. Dr. Brines?

4 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

5 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

6 National List under (a)(2), aspirin approved for 

7 healthcare use to reduce inflammation. Thanks.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jean?

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. There 

10 was the broad support expressed for keeping aspirin 

11 on the National List, and this also reflects the 

12 vote in Subcommittee. There was unanimous support 

13 for keeping aspirin on the list, and no comment 

14 indicates otherwise. Thank you.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any discussion on

16 aspirin? Okay, seeing none, those in favor of 

17 removal of aspirin from the National List, please 

18 raise your hand. Those opposed? Abstentions? 

19 Okay. Tom?

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 13 no, one 

21 absent, motion fails.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, moving right 
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1 along. Next up is atropine. Dr. Brines?

2 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Atropine is 

3 included at the National List at Section 

4 205.603(a)(3) as atropine CAS number 51-55-8. 

5 Federal law restricts this drug to use 

6 by or on the lawful written or oral order of a 

7 licensed veterinarian in full compliance with the 

8 AMDUCA and 21 CFR Part 530 of the Food and Drug 

9 Administration regulations. Also for use under 7 

10 CFR Part 205, the NOP requires (1) use by or on the 

11 lawful written order of a licensed veterinarian, 

12 and (2) a meat withdrawal period of at least 56 days 

13 after administering to livestock intended for 

14 slaughter and a milk discard period of at least 12 

15 days after administering to dairy animals. 

16 Thanks.

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, you're 

18 going to get your workout in livestock today. 

19 Jean?

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. Yes, 

21 atropine is rarely used. It is a highly controlled 

22 administered by a veterinarian only, given as an 
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1 antidote for organophosphate poisoning as an 

2 anti-spasmodic. We received broad support to keep 

3 this on the list, and that is also reflected in the 

4 vote of the Subcommittee, unanimous vote by the 

5 Subcommittee to keep this on the National List.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Is there any 

7 discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor of 

8 removal of atropine, raise your hand. Those 

9 opposed? Abstentions? Okay. Tom?

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 14 no. 

11 Motion fails.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Next up is biologics 

13 vaccines. Dr. Brines?

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

15 substance is included at Section 205.603 (a) of the 

16 National List as (4) biologics vaccines. Thanks.

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jean?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Biologics 

19 vaccines, there is broad support for keeping 

20 biologics vaccines on the National List, and this 

21 is reflected in the vote of the Subcommittee, a 

22 unanimous vote to keep them on the list.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, discussions? 

2 Is this thing on? Okay. All those in favor of 

3 removal of biologics vaccines please raise your 

4 hand. Those opposed? Abstentions? Okay. Tom?

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 14 no. The 

6 motion fails.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: So clearly the key 

8 to moving through Committee votes quickly is to do 

9 it first thing in the morning. Next up is 

10 butorphanol. Dr. Brines?

11 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

12 substance is included under Section 205.603(a) of 

13 the National List under (a)(5), butorphanol, CAS 

14 number 42408-82-2. 

15 Federal law restricts this drug to use 

16 by or on the lawful written or oral order of a 

17 licensed veterinarian in full compliance with the 

18 AMDUCA and 21 CFR Part 530 of the Food and Drug 

19 Administration regulations. Also for use under 7 

20 CFR Part 205, the NOP requires (1) use by or on the 

21 lawful written order of a licensed veterinarian, 

22 and (2) a meat withdrawal period of at least 42 days 
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1 after administering to livestock intended for 

2 slaughter and a milk discard period of at least 

3 eight days after administering to dairy animals. 

4 Thanks.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Jean? 

6 Oh, excuse me. Colehour?

7 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. So yes, 

8 butorphanol is used for preoperative pain control 

9 in animals. We did not have very much public 

10 comment. The Subcommittee was all for relisting. 

11 I do want to share that I think that some 

12 time was spent with the concerns regarding 

13 interpretations or --- interpretations is the 

14 wrong word, where or how the law and the wording 

15 allows for the use, because it's an extra label use, 

16 it's not permitted if you read the label, and that 

17 is --- you've got to dig through a lot of papers 

18 and history. I think -- thanks to Emily Brown 

19 Rosen, we were able to identify and find those 

20 references, but I think it's frankly was cumbersome 

21 and very bureaucratic and not at all easily 

22 accessible in our discussions or conversations as 
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1 to what we were referring to or how it was 

2 permitted. 

3 You know, it's an off label or extra 

4 label use, it's only permitted in the context of 

5 valid veterinarian client-patient relationship, 

6 including with limited treatments, and the health 

7 of the animal has to be threatened or suffering or 

8 death might result from the failure to treat. So 

9 I think that this all seems a little bit trivial 

10 or a side issue, but I think from my experience 

11 going through this process, frankly it was, like 

12 I already said, it wasn't that simple to be --- at 

13 least for me, as the lead person, able to grab my 

14 hands on it and say this is why and how that we can 

15 point to in legal reference. So like I already 

16 said, that was where it was at, and the Subcommittee 

17 all was behind it. Thank you.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Before we move on to 

19 discussion, I'm going to ask Emily Brown Rosen to 

20 provide just a little bit of description of that 

21 so not only for those of us that are not in the 

22 Committee, but into the record we have some 
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1 understanding of how that works.

2 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Right, well this a 

3 renewal of an item that was put on the list in 2007, 

4 I believe, was the first proposed rule on all these 

5 livestock medications, and NOP did consult with FDA 

6 at that time, and we double-checked this time too, 

7 because it's confusing to the public that it's not 

8 on the label or if you go on the website for the 

9 products, they're not labeled for livestock. 

10 But it's just --- you know, not all 

11 animal drugs are registered for every species, but 

12 there is a provision called AMDUCA which 

13 veterinarians -- if it has a registration for one 

14 drug, under the veterinary discretion it can be 

15 used on other animals. So we did reconfirm that 

16 butorphanol is approved for livestock use.

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you for 

18 helping us understand that. Any discussion on 

19 butorphanol? Mac?

20 MEMBER STONE: I have a generic 

21 question. Is this twice the withdrawal time for 

22 a couple of these materials that go back to '95 the 
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1 early days, or --- I'm just curious how that ---

2 I like it and I'm glad, I'm just curious where it 

3 came from.

4 MS. BROWN ROSEN: This --- these were 

5 --- since this drug does not have a withdrawal time 

6 on the label I don't believe, it's twice the 

7 withdrawal time --- at the time that this was 

8 proposed by NOSB, they proposed to go by the FARAD, 

9 the Food Animal Residue Avoidance Database, which 

10 is the reference that the veterinarians used for 

11 these drugs that are on the extra label use, so it's 

12 twice the withdrawal for that.

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any other 

14 discussion? Okay, all those in favor of the motion 

15 to remove butorphanol from the National List, raise 

16 your hand. Those opposed? Abstentions? 

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 14 no. The 

18 motion fails.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Next up 

20 is chlorhexidine. Dr. Brines?

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

22 substance is included at Section 205.603(a) of the 
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1 National List under (a)(6), chlorhexidine allowed 

2 for surgical procedures conducted by a 

3 veterinarian, allowed for use as a teat dip when 

4 alternative germicidal agents and/or physical 

5 barriers have lost their effectiveness. Thanks.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. 

7 Francis?

8 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you. We 

9 received quite a few comments on the need to keep 

10 chlorhexidine on the list, as well as --- well, I 

11 should maybe mention first, it was briefly 

12 mentioned, it's used as a sanitizer for 

13 veterinarians for material -- for equipment, as 

14 well as it can be used for a teat dip when other teat 

15 dips have failed. And so there were comments to 

16 keep it on for that use.

17 But there were also some concerns about 

18 the environmental effects of manufacturing 

19 chlorhexidine as well as the health effects from 

20 exposure to using it. So it should remain as the 

21 teat dip of last resort as was suggested, and which 

22 is the case anyway. And so it was moved --- it was 
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1 supported 6-0 to keep it on the list. 5-0, I'm 

2 sorry. No, I had the wrong --- I had my pages mixed 

3 up here. 6-0, okay. All right. Got you. In any 

4 case, it was unanimous.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any discussion on 

6 chlorhexidine? Okay. Seeing none, all those in 

7 favor of removal of chlorhexidine from the National 

8 List, please raise your hand. Those opposed? 

9 Abstentions? 

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: One yes, 13 no. The 

11 motion fails.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, chlorine 

13 materials. Dr. Brines?

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. We'll take up 

15 all of the chlorine materials as a group as listed 

16 at Section 205.603(a) under (a)(7), chlorine 

17 materials, disinfecting and sanitizing facilities 

18 and equipment. Residual chlorine levels in the 

19 water shall not exceed the maximum residual 

20 disinfectant limit under the Safe Drinking Water 

21 Act, (1) calcium hypochlorite, (2) chlorine 

22 dioxide, and (3) sodium hypochlorite. Thanks.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Ashley?

2 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Chlorine has many uses 

3 as a sanitizer. The majority of public comment was 

4 in support of the relisting of chlorine stating it 

5 was essential and alternatives were not effective. 

6 And I will point out that there are 

7 industry-specific applications that require 

8 chlorine materials as mandated by federal law.

9 One commenter did state that we should 

10 request a limited scope TR to discover what is 

11 required by federal law, and as Francis said in 

12 Crops and I said in Handling, we may look at this 

13 across all committees to determine if we want to do 

14 a combined TR, and the Subcommittee unanimously 

15 felt that chlorine should be relisted.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, discussion? 

17 Colehour?

18 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, I just want to put 

19 on the record that I will be changing my vote and 

20 doing a protest vote in regard to this, knowing that 

21 it will not be influencing the outcome, but instead 

22 because I, again, cannot clearly see how all of 
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1 these ifs ands and buts in terms of, we could, we 

2 should, we might look at the legal requirements and 

3 incorporate them into the process and/or seriously 

4 and honestly review the alternatives, will be 

5 happening and this won't just be another sunset item 

6 that remains on because that's the way it was. 

7 So I just think the changes are being 

8 bumped to the hypothetical future, and I don't see 

9 a mechanism in place that will ensure that, so thank 

10 you.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thanks for your 

12 comments. Anybody else? Okay, seeing no further 

13 discussion, those in favor of removal of chlorine 

14 materials --- Dr. Brines?

15 DR. BRINES: Yes, just I guess one 

16 comment on process. Thank you, Colehour, for your 

17 comments in terms of the evaluation of the material. 

18 It may be preferable to abstain from the vote rather 

19 than cast a vote which is not aligned with the OFPA 

20 criteria, which are the criteria that the Board 

21 should be using to evaluate substances against the 

22 National List. Thank you.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Colehour?

2 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you, Lisa. I 

3 actually considered that and appreciate your input. 

4 However, I think that my recommendation is to send 

5 this back to Subcommittee, and that has been 

6 declared as not an option, and so I feel like you're 

7 right about the process, but just because I'm forced 

8 to vote does not mean that I should abstain, which 

9 means I don't have enough information. 

10 If I have to vote at this moment, which 

11 like I've already stated, I do not think should be 

12 the way it's managed, then I think I will use my 

13 voting power to make a statement versus abstention, 

14 which like I said is insufficient information, 

15 because I do feel like we all have insufficient 

16 information, and I will predict that there's going 

17 to be very few or zero abstentions on this. So 

18 thank you.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any other 

20 discussion? Seeing none, those in favor of removal 

21 of chlorine materials from the National List, 

22 please raise your hand. Those opposed? 
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1 Abstentions? 

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Two yes, 12 no. The 

3 motion fails.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, next up, 

5 electrolytes. Dr. Brines?

6 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

7 is included under Section 205.603(a) of the 

8 National List under (a)(8), electrolytes without 

9 antibiotics. Thanks.

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Calvin?

11 MEMBER WALKER: Electrolytes, used as 

12 an animal welfare issue to me and the Subcommittee. 

13 When animals are dehydrated, we want to make sure 

14 that they return to health as soon as possible. In 

15 2010, the full Board voted 14-0 with one absent to 

16 retain this material, and the second comment 

17 period, Beyond Pesticide, Aurora Dairy, OTA, IOIA, 

18 CCOF recommended relisting this material, and MOSA 

19 in their survey showed that there was over 50 plus 

20 producers using this material.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, any discussion 

22 on electrolytes? Seeing none, those in favor of 
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1 removal of electrolytes from the National List, 

2 please raise your hand. Those opposed? 

3 Abstentions? 

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 14 no. The 

5 motion fails.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Next up 

7 is flunixin. Dr. Brines?

8 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

9 is included under Section 205.603 of the National 

10 List under (a)(9), flunixin, CAS number 38677-85-9 

11 in accordance with approved labeling, except that 

12 for use under 7 CFR Part 205, the NOP requires a 

13 withdrawal period of at least two times that 

14 required by FDA. Thanks.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Ashley?

16 MEMBER SWAFFAR: So flunixin is used 

17 for reducing pain and fever. Several commenters 

18 wrote in support of the relisting and the 

19 Subcommittee unanimously felt flunixin should be 

20 relisted.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any discussion on 

22 flunixin? Mac?
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1 MEMBER STONE: Maybe this is --- can be 

2 answered later when we leave, but it says, the 

3 flunixin's counterclockwise spin of light 

4 absorption. I'm really curious about what that 

5 means.

6 MEMBER SWAFFAR: That was from the TR.

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: That was put in to see 

8 if you were still awake.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any other 

10 discussion? Seeing none, those in favor of removal 

11 of flunixin, raise your hand. Those opposed? 

12 Abstentions?

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: One yes, 12 no, one 

14 abstention. The motion fails.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, next up, 

16 furosemide. Dr. Brines?

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

18 substance is included under 205.603 of the National 

19 List under (a)(10), furosemide, CAS number 54-31-9. 

20 In accordance with approved labeling except for use 

21 under 7 CFR Part 205, the NOP requires a withdrawal 

22 period of at least two times that required by the 
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1 FDA. Thanks.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Ashley?

3 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Furosemide is a 

4 diuretic and used for treatment of edema and 

5 hypertension. There were some comments this time 

6 that stated they were in support of the relisting. 

7 A lot of those were checklist type comments, but I 

8 will say the original petitioner did comment in the 

9 spring that this could be sunsetted and there are 

10 natural compounds that could be used in its place 

11 such as coffee. The Subcommittee did feel that 

12 furosemide could be delisted at this time.

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any discussion? 

14 Francis?

15 MEMBER THICKE: I'd just say as a dairy 

16 farmer, I've never heard of anybody using this 

17 material. Well maybe, you know, I live in a little 

18 limited world, but it's basically for cows that have 

19 a calf and they have udder edema, swollen udder, and 

20 what we tend to use is warm water massage and 

21 peppermint oil and milking the cow completely so if 

22 --- I don't think --- I don't know if people are 
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1 using it. The comments seem to reflect that.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any further 

3 discussion? I'll just add that in committee, I 

4 actually voted against removal of this material, 

5 but after seeing the comments and hearing from

6 someone who could potentially be using it, I'm going 

7 to change my vote to delist. 

8 Okay, those in favor of removal of 

9 furosemide from the National List, please raise 

10 your hand. Those opposed? Abstentions? Okay 

11 Tom.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: 14 yes, zero no. The 

13 motion passes.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, next up is 

15 glucose. Dr. Brines?

16 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

17 substance is included under Section 205.603 of the 

18 National List under (a)(11), glucose. Thanks.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Calvin?

20 MEMBER WALKER: This is another 

21 material I happened to pick that was brought up 

22 support. The previous Board, 2010, no one objected 
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1 to relisting this material. The Subcommittee 

2 voted unanimously to keep this material. Public 

3 support, the first round sand the second round 

4 included the same host of entities such as Beyond 

5 Pesticides, CCOF, MOSA. MOSA has shown in their 

6 survey there was 10 producers using this material, 

7 and IOIA also supported the relisting.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Calvin. 

9 Any discussion? Seeing none, those in favor of 

10 removal of glucose from the National List, please 

11 raise your hand. Those opposed? Abstentions?

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Calvin, I didn't see 

13 your vote.

14 MEMBER WALKER: Keep it on the list.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 14 no. The 

16 motion fails.

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay next up is 

18 glycerin. Dr. Brines?

19 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

20 substance is included under 205.603 of the National 

21 List, under (a)(12), glycerin, allowed as a 

22 livestock teat dip; must be produced through the 
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1 hydrolysis of fats or oils. Thanks.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, that's mine. 

3 Glycerin, wide variety of uses. For livestock, 

4 it's primarily seen as a component in a teat dip, 

5 particularly one commenter remarked that it's 

6 particularly good for cold weather. Public 

7 comment was heavily in favor of continued listing 

8 of this material, as glycerin is the main component 

9 of many teat dips and provides unique emollient 

10 properties which prevents chapping and damage to

11 udders. Because of the complexity surrounding the 

12 classification of glycerin due to multiple 

13 manufacturing processes, one group did urge the 

14 Materials Subcommittee to take up the issue of 

15 classification of materials made by fermentation. 

16 The vote in Subcommittee was 5 to retain it on the 

17 list, one abstention. Any discussion on glycerin? 

18 Tom?

19 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Was there any 

20 discussion to require an agricultural form that's 

21 now a requirement under handling?

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: No.
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Or proposed under 

2 handling?

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: No, there wasn't 

4 that discussion. Any other conversation? Okay, 

5 those in favor of removal of glycerin from the 

6 National List, please raise your hand. Those 

7 opposed? Abstentions? 

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 14 no. The 

9 motion fails.

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Next up, 

11 hydrogen peroxide. Dr. Brines?

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The substance 

13 is included under Section 205.603 of the National 

14 List under (a) (13), hydrogen peroxide. Thanks.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Calvin?

16 MEMBER WALKER: This is one of the 

17 materials that have a very, very high support among 

18 all stakeholder groups. Hydrogen peroxide is used 

19 as a cleaning agent on contact surfaces such as 

20 equipment, calf pails, bottles, utensils. In 

21 2010, no one objected to relisting this material, 

22 and this time the same group, Cornucopia, Beyond 
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1 Pesticides, Aurora, Organic Dairy, Bio Safety 

2 Systems, IOIA, and MOSA, and their survey showed 

3 that over 40 producers were using this material. 

4 And CCOF also stated support of this material.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any discussion on 

6 hydrogen peroxide? Okay, seeing none, those in 

7 favor of removal of hydrogen peroxide, please raise 

8 your hand. Those opposed? Abstentions?

9 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea I didn't get your 

10 vote. Zero yes, 14 no, the motion fails.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, next up is 

12 iodine. Dr. Brines?

13 DR. BRINES: Thank you. There are two 

14 listings for iodine on the livestock section of the 

15 National List, so they'll be considered by the Board 

16 as a group. The first listing is included at 

17 Section 205.603 of the National List under (a)(14), 

18 iodine. The second listing is under Section 

19 205.603 of the National List under (b) as topical 

20 treatment, external parasiticide or local 

21 anesthetic as applicable. Three, iodine. Thank 

22 you.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jean?

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. We had a 

3 great deal of discussion on iodine in the 

4 Subcommittee over a long period of time, not because 

5 of the iodine itself, which is strongly supported 

6 widely across all of the community of all 

7 stakeholders, but because of the manner in which the 

8 iodine itself is complexed into a variety of 

9 iodophors where the surfactants are mixed with 

10 molecular iodine to enhance water solubility and 

11 sequester the molecular iodine for extended release 

12 in the disinfectant product. 

13 So in other words, they add something to 

14 make it stick a bit and last longer, and one of the 

15 materials which is used to do this is in this large 

16 group which is generally referred to in the lay 

17 literature as just NPEs, and there was considerable 

18 discussion as to whether or not we should be working 

19 to develop a separate annotation that would limit 

20 the use of iodine in a teat dip form to formulations 

21 that had no NPEs. 

22 We nonetheless --- and we may well come 
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1 back to you in April with a separate proposed 

2 annotation that iodine should not be used -- only 

3 without the NPE and broader groups of some of these 

4 excipients. That does of course raise issues for 

5 all the other excipients, so it's not going to be 

6 as simple as we might like it to be, but nonetheless, 

7 aside from that one potentially very serious issue, 

8 for which we received quite a bit of public comment, 

9 the Subcommittee strongly supports the continued 

10 use of iodine in both the listings at 603 (a) and 

11 603 (b), and it was unanimously supported to keep 

12 it on the National List.

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Discussion? Not 

14 going to touch that one, huh? Okay, those in favor 

15 of removal of iodine from the National List, please 

16 raise your hand. Those opposed? Abstentions?

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 14 no. The 

18 motion fails.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Next up, 

20 magnesium hydroxide. Dr. Brines?

21 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

22 substance is included under Section 205.603 of the 
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1 National List under (a)(15), magnesium hydroxide, 

2 CAS number 1309-42-8. Federal law restricts this 

3 drug to use by or on the lawful written or oral order 

4 of a licensed veterinarian in full compliance with 

5 the AMDUCA and 21 CFR Part 530 of the Food and Drug 

6 Administration regulations. Also for use under 7 

7 CFR Part 205, the NOP requires use by or on the 

8 lawful written order of a licensed veterinarian. 

9 Thank you.

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Ashley?

11 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Magnesium hydroxide 

12 is primarily used as an antacid. There were lots 

13 of comments that wrote in -- commenters that wrote 

14 in for support of the relisting, stating that it 

15 helps with grass tetany and bowel function 

16 problems. There were no comments received that 

17 wanted magnesium hydroxide delisted, and the 

18 Subcommittee felt that this should be relisted.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, any 

20 discussion? Seeing none, those in favor of removal 

21 of magnesium hydroxide, please raise your hand. 

22 Those opposed? Abstentions?
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 14 no. The 

2 motion fails.

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, magnesium 

4 sulfate is our next material. Dr. Brines?

5 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

6 substance is included under Section 205.603 of the 

7 National List under (a)(16), magnesium sulfate. 

8 Thanks.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Ashley?

10 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Magnesium sulfate is 

11 used to treat conditions stemming from a magnesium 

12 deficiency or as Epsom salts to treat inflammation 

13 and abscesses in livestock by soaking the affected 

14 area. There was broad support from commenters to 

15 relist this material, and the Subcommittee felt 

16 this material should be relisted.

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, any discussion 

18 on magnesium sulfate? Seeing none, those in favor 

19 of removal of magnesium sulfate, please raise your 

20 hand. Those opposed? Okay, we need a 

21 clarification. Jennifer, how do you vote? Okay, 

22 Jennifer votes to remove. Okay, abstentions? 
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1 Okay.

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: One yes, 13 no, the 

3 motion fails.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Next up is oxytocin. 

5 Dr. Brines?

6 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

7 substance is included under Section 205.603 of the 

8 National List under (a)(17), oxytocin, use in 

9 post-parturition therapeutic applications. 

10 Thanks.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Calvin?

12 MEMBER WALKER: Yes, another material 

13 with broad support. None of the stakeholders' 

14 groups opposed relisting. It is used in uterine 

15 contraction when animals are birthing, the female 

16 at least, and there's some difficulties with the 

17 little one coming through the birth canal. So this 

18 is important material. Beyond Pesticide, Aurora 

19 Dairy, IOIA, CCOF, and MOSA show that some of their 

20 producers were using this material.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, any discussion 

22 on oxytocin? Seeing none, those in favor of 
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1 removal of oxytocin from the National List, please 

2 raise your hand. Those opposed? Abstentions?

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 14 no. The 

4 motion fails.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, next up are the 

6 parasiticides, and we're actually going to read the 

7 listing all as one, but we will be voting on them 

8 separately. Dr. Brines?

9 DR. BRINES: Thank you. These 

10 substances are included under Section 205.603 of 

11 the National List under (a)(18), parasiticides 

12 prohibited in slaughter stock, allowed in emergency 

13 treatment for dairy and breeder stock when organic 

14 system plan approved preventative management does 

15 not prevent infestation. 

16 Milk or milk products from a treated 

17 animal cannot be labeled as provided for in subpart 

18 (d) of this part for 90 days following treatment. 

19 In breeder stock, treatment cannot occur during the 

20 last third of gestation if the progeny will be sold 

21 as organic. It must not be used during the 

22 lactation period for breeding stock. 
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1 One, fenbendazole, CAS number 

2 43210-67-9, only for use by or on the lawful written 

3 order of a licensed veterinarian. Two, 

4 ivermectin, CAS number 70288-86-7 and (3) 

5 moxidectin, CAS number 11350-06-5 for control of 

6 internal parasites only. Thank you.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Dr. 

8 Brines. Francis?

9 MEMBER THICKE: So the parasiticides 

10 have a long and convoluted history here, and I'm not 

11 going to cover it all, but just briefly, that 

12 ivermectin was the first one that was approved by 

13 NOSB in 1999. Moxidectin was second in 2004, 

14 although it took a while for it to actually get on 

15 the list, and fenbendazole in 2008. 

16 And just from the technical review, some 

17 points --- highlights. Fenbendazole is actually 

18 the last one on the list, is considered to be the 

19 most benign environmentally as far as the residual 

20 effects to the environment in the manure and also 

21 for milk withdrawal. 

22 Ivermectin is the one that was first 
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1 voted on, and that one is considered to be the most 

2 harsh environmentally. The biggest concern has to 

3 do with killing dung beetles and other 

4 soil-dwelling animals you might say. Moxidectin 

5 is not supposed to be so bad for those dung beetles, 

6 but it's not good for aquatic life. But if you look 

7 at a well-managed pasture, which you should have on 

8 an organic farm, the soil is the thing where it gets 

9 to, and the manure should not get to the water.

10 So overall, what the committee did is we 

11 voted to remove ivermectin, and we had a mixed vote 

12 for moxidectin, and I'm going to mention that my own 

13 vote was against moxidectin, just to get comments, 

14 because we weren't certain about the use pattern, 

15 okay, we got a lot of good comments. And we were 

16 unanimously in favor of keeping fenbendazole. 

17 And the comments we got were all over the 

18 board, but a lot of people said they need all three 

19 of them. We had though a lot of targeted comments 

20 that said --- I think well thought out and 

21 well-argued comments, that said that ivermectin and 

22 moxidectin have similar modes of action, and so we 
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1 really only need one of those, and if we have 

2 moxidectin and fenbendazole on the list, that we 

3 have two modes of action, and so we have a backup 

4 in case of resistance.

5 And I think that the committee was 

6 thinking along those lines, and I certainly am now 

7 after hearing the comments. I did not see any 

8 really good argument for keeping both ivermectin 

9 and moxidectin. We did get comments that we need 

10 both, but I looked closely to see why we need both, 

11 and nobody really made the case why we need both that 

12 I could see, unless I missed it. So on the 

13 overview, my recommendation is that we keep 

14 fenbendazole on the list, and we keep moxidectin on 

15 the list, and we remove ivermectin.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Francis. 

17 Discussion? Zea?

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: I have a question, 

19 and I'm not maybe as up on this subject as I should 

20 be, but I was there for when ivermectin was put on 

21 the list, and I seem to recall a lot of concern, 

22 especially from sheep producers, that the other 
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1 substances didn't work as well, and so I'm wondering 

2 if you heard from sheep producers particularly 

3 regarding their parasites and whether they needed 

4 that as a choice.

5 MEMBER THICKE: Well, we've heard that 

6 there's some difficulties with, again, like what 

7 it's recommended to be used for and what it can be 

8 used for, and there's problems with fenbendazole, 

9 as it has to be --- by the rule, it has to be 

10 recommended by a veterinarian, the other two do not. 

11 And so all those come into play. And moxidectin is 

12 only allowed on the list for internal parasites and 

13 not external parasites, and it's ironic because 

14 it's a pour on, and so if you pour it on, you're going 

15 to control the external parasites. 

16 So what I'm getting is that moxidectin 

17 does fill that need for sheep and goats if it's used 

18 --- and we're going to consider later a proposal to 

19 change those annotations so that moxidectin can be 

20 for both internal and external parasites. So what 

21 I've seen is that with moxidectin and fenbendazole, 

22 that we have coverage for small animals as well.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Follow up question 

2 to that?

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Go ahead.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: So there was a 

5 sentence in here, and I've lost it now, but 

6 something about we may allow sheep wool to be sold 

7 after administering these?

8 MEMBER THICKE: That is going to be --

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Could you explain 

10 that? 

11 MEMBER THICKE: That is going to be 

12 considered in the proposal later. Now, sheep that 

13 are treated cannot --- the wool cannot be used as 

14 organic, but that will be addressed in the proposal 

15 later on, and we can talk about that then.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, Jean first, and 

18 then Mac.

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. This 

20 isn't easy, and one of the reasons why it's not easy 

21 is that there's a certain little bit of confusion 

22 in the way the materials are sort of listed, and I'll 
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1 be discussing later on in the presentation of the 

2 discussion document on some proposed change 

3 annotations for these three materials in regards to 

4 the withholding period of time, and also the fact 

5 that at the present time, moxidectin is listed for 

6 control of internal parasites only, and it will be 

7 certainly our recommendation in the proposal coming 

8 back in the spring that it would be used both 

9 internal and external, and we would also be 

10 recommending a shortening of the withholding period 

11 of time which was established for ivermectin, which 

12 has a much longer withholding period than is 

13 necessary for either fenbendazole or moxidectin. 

14 And I shall be voting to keep both fenbendazole and 

15 moxidectin, and as I say, we've discussed these at 

16 incredible length on the Subcommittee.

17 I am challenged to know what to do with 

18 ivermectin, and one of the reasons is is that 

19 looking at all the public comment that's come from 

20 across the country is that in the West especially, 

21 and especially amongst sheep producers, ivermectin 

22 is the one material that is commonly used. They 
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1 don't use the fenbendazole typically, and I think 

2 it's really related to the fact that you were -- in 

3 order to use the fenbendazole, you're going to be 

4 working with a veterinarian, and you're only using 

5 the ivermectin when you've got an emergency 

6 situation so heck, it's much easier to go to the 

7 store and get the ivermectin than wait for the vet 

8 to come. And I actually remember when I raised 

9 sheep here in Vermont, it was much more sensible for 

10 us to have the ivermectin on hand than to go out 

11 working through the veterinarian.

12 So the bottom line is that we're only 

13 using the --- you've got to have good farm grassland 

14 management and pasture rotation and count of --

15 fecal counts and be looking for sheep breeds, for 

16 example, not so serious for cattle breeds, but for 

17 breeds of animals which are much more parasite 

18 resistant, and, you know, that's sort of the 

19 foundation. 

20 And you're only going to be using these 

21 in any case for an emergency. So assuming you're 

22 only using it in extremely rare cases, you're not 
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1 going to be using very much ivermectin, so perhaps 

2 on organic farms, the dung beetles are not being as 

3 negatively impacted as they would be on a 

4 conventional farm. And we certainly did see slides 

5 that Kent Henderson showed us, I think that was on 

6 the webinar where there was a buffalo herd, and all 

7 the dung was sitting there on the ground in large 

8 piles to show us, you know, he was trying to 

9 demonstrate the extent to which you could get an 

10 excessive amount of dung accumulating. Great 

11 pictures, and everyone loves dung beetles of 

12 course.

13 But on most farms, it's going to be used 

14 extremely rarely, so we fare in suggesting that we 

15 take ivermectin off the list when we know it's only 

16 going to be used in an emergency, and we know that 

17 it is the most common material that's used out west 

18 for sheep farms, and we know that our competition 

19 coming from New Zealand and Australia will have been 

20 treated with ivermectin. 

21 And this is before I answer, I think 

22 Zea's concern for the fact that it would be nice to 
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1 be able to use the sheep wool, whether the animal 

2 has had ivermectin or not. So we certainly need to 

3 take this extremely seriously. I think the 

4 fenbendazole, which came along much later, could be 

5 well used in the West, it just typically isn't, and 

6 a veterinarian thing, I think, is the catch. In the 

7 East, especially in the Northeast, it tends to be 

8 somewhat more used than it is in other areas, and 

9 I noticed from the public comment that there was 

10 definitely an East/West difference in the way in 

11 which ivermectin was --- the kind of public comment 

12 we got on ivermectin as opposed to the other 

13 materials.

14 So perhaps --- and I'm just throwing 

15 this out, because here's Jean has been pushing to 

16 get rid of the ivermectin, because we don't really 

17 need three of them I don't think, but we don't know 

18 if the annotations are going to go through. The 

19 annotations would include probably not having a 

20 veterinarian used for --- and that's part of the 

21 discussion document, not this discussion really, 

22 but I think that the annotation, based on public 
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1 comment, will be suggesting that we not have a 

2 veterinarian have to be involved for the use of 

3 fenbendazole, and so therefore the fenbendazole 

4 would be more easily available to farmers that want 

5 to use it, whether you're dairy or sheep or goats.

6 And there has been an issue raised by 

7 some of the commenters that the --- about the ---

8 let's see, it's haemonchus contortus I think, I 

9 don't have my notes right in front of me. One of 

10 the happy little elements that we don't want, a 

11 suggestion that moxidectin doesn't get to it. But 

12 in actual fact, if you look at the technical report, 

13 haemonchus contortus is impacted and killed by 

14 fenbendazole, so there's a little bit of confusion 

15 amongst the farmers as to what the three different 

16 parasiticides can do.

17 And I noticed that also in comments from 

18 certifiers and from farmers differentially between 

19 the East and the West, and certainly there's a big 

20 difference between sheep farmer comments and dairy 

21 farmer comments, because the issue of parasites is 

22 far greater for sheep farmers than for others. So 
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1 I'd be interested to know what the rest of the 

2 committee feels about the ivermectin especially, if 

3 we eliminate it before we've made the possible 

4 annotation changes at the spring meeting.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Mac?

6 MEMBER STONE: Thanks, Jean. That 

7 gets to some of my questions here. So I feel like 

8 I'll know better what to do today --- I feel like 

9 I need to move them all forward without knowing a 

10 little more about the potential annotation change. 

11 So if it's not too confusing, maybe let's discuss 

12 the potential annotation discussion with each of 

13 these as we go through, because as a sheep farmer, 

14 you know, you can have an outbreak pretty quick, and 

15 I'd like to have access to something that is on the 

16 store shelf and I don't have to call the vet, and 

17 some of that kind of stuff. So is it possible that 

18 we could sort of look at --- I like the annotation 

19 recommendations, but I'm still --- they're sort of 

20 jumbled together at this point in my mind.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Francis?

22 MEMBER THICKE: I wonder if we should 
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1 hold the vote until after the discussion on the 

2 annotation changes. We can't do that?

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We're not --- we 

4 don't have a proposal today, we only have a 

5 discussion document. 

6 MEMBER THICKE: Right.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: There won't be a 

8 proposal until the Spring. We have to complete 

9 sunset before we can ---

10 MEMBER THICKE: Well what I'm saying, 

11 before we discuss the --- if we could have a 

12 discussion on the discussion document before we 

13 have this vote, because it would clear up some of 

14 these questions that Mac has. I have another 

15 comment, too, I'm only thinking of it.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, I think a lot 

17 of what I've just been saying is really sort of the 

18 central part of what's in the discussion document.

19 MEMBER THICKE: Right, we should really 

20 sum up. The key points are that moxidectin would 

21 be allowed for both internal and external 

22 parasites, and we'd take away the long --- proposing 
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1 to take away the long withdrawal period of 90 days, 

2 but we probably couldn't do that with ivermectin, 

3 we could do that with moxidectin and fenbendazole. 

4 And we're suggesting taking away the veterinarian 

5 requirement for the veterinarians to prescribe it. 

6 And I want to make one more comment about 

7 the use of ivermectin in some cases, and I think that 

8 it's often out of habit, and often out of tradition. 

9 This is what's been on the list and this is what 

10 they've been using. We heard a dairy farmer speak 

11 earlier and he said, well I went down to TSC and 

12 that's what was there and I just got it. And I 

13 actually got it -- went to TSC in my -- Tractor 

14 Supply Company in my town, and moxidectin was right 

15 next to agrimectin. And so it's there, it just --

16 we're just used to grabbing one thing I think, and 

17 that shouldn't limit us.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jean?

19 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, I just want to 

20 be clear. Mac, is the ivermectin needs the lengthy 

21 withholding, so that --- and I can't tell you off 

22 the top of my head what the proposal would look like 
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1 for the spring, but the withholding however for 

2 fenbendazole will be drastically shorter because 

3 the withholding as it is right now of the 90 days 

4 et cetera, that was really established for 

5 ivermectin, and then it was just picked up by the 

6 other two, so to speak, without really looking at 

7 the FARAD and analyzing whether you needed that 

8 length of time. 

9 So from a farmer point of view, the 

10 withholding, if they do have to use it, it would be 

11 beneficial for them to be using fenbendazole and not 

12 to be using the ivermectin, so it would be an 

13 incentive. And if we were to get rid of the need 

14 to involve the veterinarian for the fenbendazole, 

15 similarly, that would be --- help it to be more the 

16 material to reach for in that emergency. Now 

17 again, I'm saying is that these are only used ever 

18 in emergencies. They're not used on a prophylactic 

19 basis as they are on conventional farms.

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I move to suspend the 

21 rules of the agenda to consider the discussion 

22 document on parasiticides at this time.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I have a motion. Do 

2 I have a second?

3 MEMBER STONE: Second.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, all those in 

5 favor of suspending the agenda to ---

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Could you repeat the 

7 motion, sir?

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: This motion is to 

9 suspend the rules of the agenda to consider the 

10 discussion document on parasiticides at this time. 

11 It's just a motion to reorder.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, all we're doing 

13 is moving the discussion document up into 

14 discussion. So I have a motion and a second, all 

15 those in favor of allowing discussion of the 

16 discussion document, please raise your hand. 

17 Okay, I think we're good with simple majority.

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: I just have a point of 

19 clarification. Do we have a motion on the floor 

20 already? So do we have to do something? You guys 

21 figure it out.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The motion on the 
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1 floor remains, we're just considering a different 

2 item.

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: And we'll come back to 

5 it in the agenda, reordering the agenda. 

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: We have nested 

7 motions at the moment. We have a motion within a 

8 motion. 

9 Okay. I would just like to contribute 

10 a comment in that first of all, I know way too much 

11 information about dung pat preparation for 

12 scientific studies after reading the technical 

13 articles from Kent Henderson that was provided as 

14 part of the public comment. I have sheep, I'm very 

15 fortunate that I have a parasite-resistant breed 

16 that so far I have not had to do any de-worming of 

17 any sort, but I do recognize that to Mac's point, 

18 sheep seem to be sort of fragile and go from healthy 

19 to dead very quickly if you're not careful. My vet 

20 actually told me the number one and number two 

21 killers of sheep in Texas are parasites and coyotes, 

22 predators, in that order, so, yes. 
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1 So this is a pretty serious issue. I 

2 was struck by the comments of one of the presenters 

3 for public comment, where he did allow us how that 

4 he could get moxidectin, and Francis has confirmed 

5 that as well.

6 That was my big concern is, you know, 

7 like me, I live in a small town. If I had a parasite 

8 problem, yes I have a vet, but a small producer can't 

9 always afford to have a vet come out at the drop of 

10 a hat any time something goes wrong, and it would 

11 sure be great if you could run down to Tractor Supply 

12 like I do and have it. But to find out that it's 

13 over the counter -- the one concern that I did have 

14 about fenbendazole is the veterinary requirement, 

15 but also it's an injectable versus a pour-on, and 

16 -- but I think most of us that have livestock have 

17 become proficient with doing injections if we need 

18 to. 

19 Oh, it's also an oral? Okay. Okay. 

20 So --- and I'm very fortunate that I have a pretty 

21 good dung beetle population on my property, and I 

22 wouldn't want to see them impacted by the decisions.
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1 But some of the technical papers that we 

2 received as part of public comment did actually 

3 demonstrate to me pretty effectively that in a 

4 well-managed pasture where it's used only in 

5 emergency situations, the impact is not significant 

6 on dung beetles. However, having said that, I'm 

7 still going to be in favor of removal of ivermectin. 

8 Okay, do we want to have a discussion on the 

9 discussion document? Jean, since you wrote that, 

10 do you want to kind of give at least a very brief 

11 overview, maybe a summary?

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes. Well, do you 

13 -- we're going to be discussing it, so do you want 

14 me to be sort of reading into the record the various 

15 public comments?

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, let's do that.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. I was hoping 

18 I could do this later and get it fresh in my brain. 

19 Keeping everything all together you know is hard at 

20 my age. 

21 We --- there's some present confusions 

22 in the present annotation language. I'm going to 
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1 start there I think. Fenbendazole is the most 

2 environmentally benign and it's annotated to 

3 require written order of the licensed veterinarian, 

4 that's an important aspect to keep in mind. 

5 Ivermectin and moxidectin do not require a 

6 veterinarian. 

7 We did --- and we sent out some 

8 questions, as you know, in order to get information 

9 for this discussion document that we could use in 

10 the spring to bring back a proposal to you. We got 

11 a large amount of response for all of the questions 

12 that we proposed. Excellent, actually, really, 

13 really, really good comments from the public from 

14 all over the country have given us an enormous body 

15 of material that we can work on to come up with I 

16 think a really good proposal for the spring, and one 

17 of the questions we asked was whether or not all or 

18 some of these materials, the parasiticides, should 

19 be on written order of a licensed veterinarian.

20 There were very few suggestions that we 

21 would continue to have a written order of a licensed 

22 veterinarian. As I recall, I'm not going to try to 
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1 list all of them, because we did have a lot of 

2 comments. The certifiers feel like it would be 

3 much easier to track the use of the parasiticide if 

4 there was a written order of a licensed veterinarian 

5 so that when the inspector goes around, they could 

6 review the vet bills and see when it was being used, 

7 and that would give them a clear understanding of 

8 which animal by ID number had been -- on the health 

9 records had been cared for by a veterinarian and the 

10 parasiticide had been used.

11 Farmers, however, have a much different 

12 view of it because it is often not just a hassle, 

13 but also an added expense in the marginal profit 

14 that we get on our farms to be bringing in a vet when 

15 you want to determine whether or not the fecal egg 

16 count on the farm has reached the point where you 

17 need to do some de-worming of some animals. 

18 And so from the farmer's perspective, 

19 the idea that any of these --- the fenbendazole 

20 would be on the written order of a licensed 

21 veterinarian, that is an anathema to them, and it 

22 would seem --- and of course as you know, 
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1 conventional farms don't have to work with a 

2 veterinarian to use parasiticides. 

3 There was, however, quite a lot of the 

4 public comment that indicated that farmers should 

5 be spending more time actually doing parasite egg 

6 counts in order to determine if the breeds of sheep 

7 or goats, especially, that they have are such that 

8 they're beginning to build up parasite loads which 

9 would require a dewormer, and usually this, as you 

10 know, takes place in the earlier months or first 

11 year of life more typically. 

12 And so, you know, farmers should be 

13 obviously being encouraged to be looking at fecal 

14 egg counts, and also to be looking for dung beetles. 

15 I can't wait to tell inspectors at the IOIA that one 

16 of their jobs is going to be as an inspector is go 

17 out and count dung beetles, however, that should be 

18 quite a riot. As an inspector myself, because I 

19 like that, but then, you know, I'm a strange person 

20 when it comes to things like dung beetles. 

21 So I think that the --- I think, based 

22 on the public comment, we'll be suggesting in the 
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1 proposal that we don't need to have veterinarian for 

2 any of the --- and I'm just going to continue to 

3 assume all three are still on the list --- for any 

4 of the three of these materials.

5 When it comes to moxidectin, it is 

6 presently listed for control of internal parasites 

7 only. When it was put on the list, it appears that 

8 the moxidectin, which is fairly widely used as a 

9 pour on, again, under emergency situations only, 

10 and that when it's used to control internal 

11 parasites, it will also de facto control external 

12 parasites, as we found from the literature and 

13 material that's come in to us from veterinarians 

14 especially. 

15 So this for control of internal 

16 parasites only phraseology that was in the original 

17 annotation for the moxidectin was written based on 

18 incorrect information at the time based on the 

19 half-life of the moxidectin in the soil. And so I 

20 think based on, again, all of the public comment 

21 that we've had come in, that moxidectin should not 

22 only remain on the list but also that the annotation 
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1 for control of internal parasites only should be 

2 removed so that it could be used internally as well. 

3 We had on the next questions, we had on 

4 the --- one of the questions that we posed in our 

5 --- I'll go through some of the questions. When we 

6 sent this out to public comment, we asked about the 

7 milk withholding period, and if so, how many days 

8 should the milk withholding be, and we did get back 

9 an enormous amount of comment on the withholding 

10 period for milk. 

11 At the present time, there's a 90-day 

12 withholding, but there seems to be wide consensus 

13 that the 90 days is much too long as a withholding, 

14 one, because it may motivate a producer to withhold 

15 the needed treatment because of the severe economic 

16 consequences of a 90-day withdrawal, and secondly, 

17 fenbendazole and moxidectin have no milk withdrawal 

18 time for use in conventional production. However, 

19 it is important to note for ivermectin that the 

20 lengthy withdrawal period of time is still 

21 indicated in terms of the label use under FARAD.

22 So for --- if you're going to be using 
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1 fenbendazole or moxidectin with the -- on dairy, 

2 then you would be able to have a considerably 

3 reduced period of time, withdrawal period. One 

4 veterinarian stated that fenbendazole is not in the 

5 milk after three days, and so, you know, you're 

6 starting with the three days --- I don't think we 

7 would go that low, but if it's no longer in the milk 

8 after three days, then that gives us one point at 

9 which we could start to reduce the withholding for 

10 in milk animals, and 14 days is recommended as the 

11 length that would be good for beef. So --- and 

12 those are with fenbendazole, and it would be similar 

13 I think in moxidectin. Again, I have to fully 

14 analyze all these materials before we take it back 

15 to, you know, when we'll go back to Subcommittee and 

16 re-look at it.

17 So we've had suggestions of five-day 

18 withdrawal for the parasiticides moxidectin and 

19 fenbendazole, and even from groups that are more 

20 consumer-oriented. They see that this need -- you 

21 would be taking care of the animal because you must 

22 control parasites obviously. If you have an animal
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1 with parasites, you can't just let them be in 

2 misery. So you do have to be able to help them by 

3 some form of parasite control. And I should 

4 comment that there are obviously homeopathic and 

5 other forms of parasite control that are also used 

6 by many farmers, like the Crystal Creek 

7 alternative, for example. But again, this is only 

8 in emergency situations we're looking at.

9 One of the questions we posed was, 

10 should minimal use of parasites be allowed in 

11 organic slaughter stock such as permitted under the 

12 Canadian organic standards, where there's one 

13 treatment for slaughter animals under one year old, 

14 and two treatments for older animals, and if they 

15 have more treatments than that, that's when they 

16 lose their organic status? 

17 I did not see much positive feedback 

18 from any part of the stakeholder group to adopt that 

19 Canadian organic standard, and many of them 

20 commented that it would be much too hard for the 

21 farmer and the certifier to track this in and out 

22 kind of use and keep track of all the individual 
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1 animals, and so that may not be one of the items that 

2 we would bring forward in a proposal in the spring.

3 The third question that we posed for 

4 public comment was, should sheep fleece and wool be 

5 allowed to be certified organic even if the use of 

6 parasiticides was necessary at some point in the 

7 animal's life? There was broad support for that 

8 from our stakeholders all over the country, because 

9 obviously as you know, we're at a serious 

10 disadvantage from a market point of view, never mind 

11 anything else, by not being able to sell sheep 

12 fleece and wool as organic. And this would have a 

13 positive impact not only for the farmers, but also 

14 in terms of the supply of materials for fiber. So 

15 farmers and a broad range of certifiers and 

16 veterinarians and so on felt that even if the 

17 animal's meat could not be used as slaughter stock, 

18 that the sheep fleece may be able to be used after 

19 the use of parasiticides.

20 There was, however, some 

21 recommendations for a withholding length of period 

22 of time for the sheep fleece usage, that it wouldn't 
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1 be the same as for milk, it wouldn't be three days 

2 or something, it would be a longer period of time. 

3 And there were a number of different lengths of 

4 different days proposed for us to look at and review 

5 when we take this back to Subcommittee. 

6 I've already covered the moxidectin, we 

7 think it should be used both internal and external. 

8 I've already covered the veterinarian one. So we 

9 did put out these five questions. Let's see if I've 

10 covered what needs to be covered. 

11 We had excellent feedback from 

12 veterinarians. So here's one on sheep fleece, for 

13 example, from a veterinarian. Should sheep fleece 

14 be allowed? Yes, if an extended withdrawal time 

15 was observed. So for --- if they used moxidectin 

16 and fenbendazole, a withholding time of 14 to 30 

17 days should be -- would be appropriate. Ivermectin 

18 should not be allowed and should be removed from the 

19 list of allowed synthetic treatments for organic 

20 livestock. This is from a veterinarian out in the 

21 Midwest.

22 So --- do you want me to read more of 
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1 these? I mean, there's vast amounts of them, so, 

2 but I could --- maybe I should just leave it to 

3 answer questions. So that's sort of the general 

4 gist of where we're heading. Francis, do you think 

5 that's giving us enough to --- from a discussion 

6 point of view? Mac?

7 MEMBER STONE: No, thank you very much, 

8 and that helps sort of frame today's conversation 

9 very much because it digs a little deeper into the 

10 discussion and input to that discussion helps a lot 

11 today.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Tom?

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I would like to hear 

14 from the other members of the Livestock 

15 Subcommittee on their thoughts on this if we were 

16 to not sunset ivermectin at this time, but plan to 

17 have it be removed when these annotation changes 

18 occur. So it would be a joint proposal to remove 

19 ivermectin as well as make the annotation change, 

20 that way it would occur all at the same time in rule 

21 making.

22 MEMBER STONE: I won't be here, but that 
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1 sounds logical because we will learn more in another 

2 set of public comment around those discussions. I 

3 was just saying that that sounds logical based on 

4 there's going to be another set of public comment, 

5 a little deeper dive into it, which helps for today 

6 again I think.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: So just so we're 

8 clear, Tom was asking the question how the Committee 

9 would feel about voting on ivermectin today, 

10 potentially leaving it on today so that it could be 

11 combined with an annotation change that we would 

12 bring in the spring, with a potential vote for 

13 removal depending on public comments. Colehour?

14 MEMBER BONDERA: I think I understand; 

15 however, for clarification sake Tom, those would be 

16 totally, completely separate proposals. One would 

17 be changing annotations, and a separate one would 

18 be removal of something from the list. So you were 

19 saying could we consider--could the Subcommittee 

20 consider proposing or petitioning that we remove 

21 ivermectin from the list somehow in a--it wouldn't 

22 be in direct association, but somehow related to our 
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1 work with annotation issues. I'm pretty sure 

2 that's what I've heard.

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, you're--

4 MEMBER BONDERA: So they both go 

5 forward at the same time to the Secretary for 

6 action.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Zea, and then 

8 Harold.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: I have two questions 

10 and maybe I should know this, but I don't. One is 

11 it doesn't work with veterinarians that you could 

12 just have the veterinarian come out once a year, and 

13 then they would give you a prescription for enough 

14 parasiticide for the whole year, or do you have to 

15 have them come out every single time you need to use 

16 it?

17 MEMBER THICKE: I think you would have 

18 to have them come out and prescribe it at the time, 

19 that's kind of what a prescription would be. But 

20 I think there's another point, too, is that when 

21 farmers have been--livestock producers been around 

22 the circle a few times and have done fecal count, 
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1 they can see an animal and see the symptoms and know 

2 what they are, and I know when I have calves, I can 

3 tell if they have any kind of wormy thing. And 

4 another point I want to make, too is I don't use any 

5 of these parasiticides. There are a couple of 

6 companies that make some natural things they've 

7 researched the FDA has not approved. One company 

8 called their original product ParAttack, and the 

9 FDA told them they couldn't use that name because 

10 it implied that it controlled parasites. And so 

11 they changed the name, but they don't necessarily 

12 kill the parasites, but they help the animal expel 

13 them, and I find that when I have calves that are 

14 looking like they have parasites, I use these 

15 products, and they come out of it. So I guess that 

16 we need to look at there are natural alternatives 

17 out there, and that we need to try to find some way 

18 to encourage that kind of use. Go ahead.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Sure, but I would 

20 think that you know, the phraseology working with 

21 a veterinarian on this means that you don't call a 

22 different vet each time you have a problem; you have 
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1 a regular vet, and so the regular vet could know you 

2 well enough to trust that you'd recognize the 

3 symptoms and use it in a responsible manner rather 

4 than have to call them every time.

5 MEMBER THICKE: But then why couldn't 

6 they just do it on their own? It's a over counter 

7 drug, all these are, anybody can buy them in the 

8 store--

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Okay. So my 

10 second question is if this seems to be your general 

11 proposal to vote off ivermectin but keep the other 

12 two, then why is the vote out of committee to remove 

13 moxidectin, too?

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Francis, he did 

15 speak to that, but I'll let him answer it.

16 MEMBER THICKE: We did it in part to try 

17 to get some comments, because sometimes if we don't 

18 get people's attention, we don't get the comments 

19 we need. And we did, it did work, we got a lot of 

20 comments that helped us--no actually that's true, 

21 we needed to start out ivermectin and moxidectin, 

22 and we needed to know, and I don't think we would 
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1 have gotten those comments if we hadn't pushed a 

2 little bit. And we were uncertain for that matter 

3 also, we didn't know what's out there and what the 

4 needs are.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Harold?

6 MEMBER AUSTIN: Did the Subcommittee 

7 take and look or turn up anything as far as--because 

8 both moxidectin and ivermectin are in the same 

9 chemical classification as far as mode of action. 

10 So you've got one being used internally, one being 

11 used topically; was there any concern about 

12 resistance management from two chemicals from the 

13 same chemical classification with the same mode of 

14 action?

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I think I'll let Lisa 

16 take a stab or--we did actually discuss that, and 

17 actually wondered whether we needed both of them for 

18 that reason. When we were first having the 

19 discussion about whether all three were needed, I 

20 think initially we did actually consider whether or 

21 not we needed just fenbendazole, and I for one 

22 strongly argued against having just a single 
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1 parasiticide for concerns regarding to developing 

2 of resistance, and I like the idea that we have two 

3 different drugs from two different classes that 

4 work in slightly different modes of action. 

5 Francis, do you want to add to that? Okay. 

6 Harold, follow up?

7 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes, follow up. Do we 

8 know which is the older of the two materials between 

9 those two materials on moxidectin and ivermectin?

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: It's my 

11 understanding that ivermectin has been around for 

12 a very long time; moxidectin is a relatively newer 

13 formulation and it did come on to the list later. 

14 Nick, did you have a question or comment?

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, I did. Are we 

16 done with this portion of the discussion, because 

17 I'm going to consider--

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Well, let me go 

19 around the room. Do we have any more questions or 

20 comments in regards to the discussion document? 

21 Carmela?

22 MEMBER MARAVELL: I was just saying on 
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1 this issue of resistance in the class of chemicals, 

2 it was my understanding there was a slight 

3 difference between ivermectin and--they are in the 

4 same class, but there was a slight difference 

5 between them, and I did want to ask the Committee, 

6 I effect following up on Harold's question, what did 

7 you gather any information about the relative 

8 resistance that already exists to these 

9 parasiticides?

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Francis or Jean, do 

11 you want to address that, and if not, I mean--

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Well, ivermectin is 

13 typically not used in dairy, so it's mostly used in 

14 the sheep/goat group. There seems to be some 

15 resistance to the ivermectin in some parts of the 

16 country, and it really depends on a combination of 

17 factors. The breed of the sheep, the extent 

18 of--the range of ailments that they're infected 

19 with, et cetera. So there is some obvious immunity 

20 with ivermectin in some areas, highly variable 

21 geographically and depending on the breed of 

22 animal. As I say, not really typically used in 
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1 dairy, and therefore you don't sort of see that 

2 information there. The issue with the moxidectin 

3 is again that you're not able to use it internally 

4 at the present time, only externally, so therefore 

5 you're not comparing apples and apples when you look 

6 to--and fenbendazole is a little more--is a newer 

7 parasiticide. And it's my understanding that when 

8 they put moxidectin on the list, the idea was that 

9 that would allow ivermectin to sunset, but because 

10 of that external annotation, that that hasn't 

11 happened, at least that's one of the reasons. So 

12 it's not a simple question that you're asking, but 

13 obviously there appears to be a considerable 

14 efficacy right now with fenbendazole; the 

15 assumption is that, especially seeing it on 

16 conventional farms, is that you'll see the same 

17 functional improvement with moxidectin as well.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Carmela, did you 

19 have a question?

20 MEMBER BECK: So I am extremely 

21 reluctant to want to remove materials from the 

22 National List if there's still an identified need 
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1 and it still meets OFPA criteria, and so there was 

2 mixed public comment, mostly in favor of removal, 

3 but I did see general comments in favor of keeping 

4 it. So I'm wondering two things. One, I'm 

5 wondering if Mac can speak to now the removing 

6 ivermectin and feeling comfortable with that from 

7 your perspective, and I'm also wondering about the 

8 individual on the Subcommittee who voted in favor 

9 of it, if their opinion has changed since public 

10 comments been issued.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Mac, you want to 

12 address that?

13 MEMBER STONE: Sure. So if the 

14 Committee comes back as we've discussed with this 

15 proposal in the spring, if ivermectin has a 90-day 

16 withdrawal, that's a decision that the 

17 farmer/rancher would make, versus the shorter 

18 withdrawal of a similar acting product. The 

19 certifiers are going to be very active in monitoring 

20 all of that aspect of it. So my inclination, 

21 especially if there is an East/West sort of a 

22 cultural difference, like we have--I haven't seen 
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1 a dung beetle in Kentucky in years; we don't have 

2 them. In fact, I might haul some dung home from 

3 Texas sometime, but I'd be inclined to, if I were 

4 on the Board in the spring, I'd be inclined to not 

5 take away a tool that is a rescue only so that 

6 farmers and ranchers would have access and make 

7 their own decisions with their certifiers. Based 

8 on the annotation changes that are being proposed, 

9 I still would sort of lean towards not taking that 

10 tool away, which I intend to do today and not take 

11 tools away and let this work out in the spring.

12 

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I would like to make 

14 a comment, and then Francis. I recently went to a 

15 hair sheep association meeting at Langston 

16 University in Oklahoma, where they had been doing 

17 some research on parasite resistance in three 

18 different breeds of hair sheep, which was funded by 

19 a USDA grant by the way, so thank you. It was 

20 interesting, I think they're in year three of the 

21 study, and they're finding that while individual 

22 animals amongst different breeds are showing a 
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1 certain amount of resistance, and that's looking at 

2 packed cell volumes and fecal egg counts and all 

3 sorts of things, the aren't finding that there's 

4 inheritability so far in the results, which they 

5 were a little reluctant to even disclose because 

6 what that means is you might have resistance among 

7 individual animals, but they're not able to 

8 predictably inherit the resistance, despite the 

9 fact that that seems logical that they would. So 

10 parasite resistance is a very complex issue; I 

11 believe it's as much about management as it is about 

12 the animals, and one of the things that occurs to 

13 me as part of this discussion is if we leave the 

14 withdrawal time significantly longer for 

15 ivermectin than the other two, we might be 

16 self-limiting on the use of ivermectin to Mac's 

17 comment, and that if you have an animal that's 

18 resistant to a parasite that moxidectin doesn't 

19 work on, you'd probably do that first because you'd 

20 have the ability to a shorter withdrawal time, but 

21 then if it's a matter of saving the animal's life, 

22 you still might go to ivermectin if nothing else 
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1 works. So that's just something to think about. 

2 And I think it was Francis had his hand up, and then 

3 Jean, and then Nick.

4 MEMBER THICKE: I've got a question for 

5 Mac. Do you suppose speaking of tools that 

6 moxidectin would be an inadequate tool as compared 

7 with ivermectin? I mean, do we need both tools? 

8 It's like if you're working on your combine, and you 

9 need a 960 inch wrench, and you look and you've 

10 got--have a Snap On 960 inch and you have a Craftsman 

11 one, do you need them both, and you need to lug them 

12 both around the field?

13 MEMBER STONE: Yes, absolutely. 

14 Sometimes you need open end, and sometimes you need 

15 a box end wrench, right?

16 MEMBER THICKE: They both have it. 

17 They both have it.

18 MEMBER STONE: So but no, I think--so 

19 even in emergency use, because sheep are 

20 problematic animals in general, that you need to 

21 have that tool available. Resistance to the 

22 compound is much less likely because there's a lot 
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1 of resistance in conventional flocks, and some 

2 people are losing control all together because 

3 they've already run through their resistance of all 

4 of these products. So to me, it's a little bit 

5 about access and what your TSC has available and 

6 some of that kind of stuff. So but I would--two 

7 different modes of action are definitely in play; 

8 I could debate whether the ivermectin and the other 

9 one both need to be, but again, that's a tough 

10 decision based on access and a farmer/rancher's 

11 particular situation.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay Jean, then 

13 Nick, then Calvin.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, and I think 

15 that it's particularly important at this point 

16 where we're thinking about removing an important 

17 tool is to note the big difference between the 

18 eastern and western United States and between sheep 

19 as opposed to dairy, and the fact that in the West, 

20 they really have not caught on to using 

21 fenbendazole, for example, and the fact that 

22 there's confusion, sometimes even between 
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1 veterinarians as to whether or not one of the main 

2 ones that they want to control, which is this 

3 haemonchus contortus element, there's not a 

4 understanding that the fenbendazole addresses that 

5 as well as the ivermectin, and yet the ivermectin 

6 is building up some immunity as we can assume.

7 So I think that--and many of the 

8 comments that we got of course were from dairy 

9 producers, so where this issue is not as great as 

10 it is with regard to ivermectin, which is rarely 

11 used on a dairy farm. So there's a lot of little 

12 moving parts for us to look at. I think if we end 

13 up, since we're sort of still on this discussion 

14 document, if we're standing out a lot of detail in 

15 the proposals, we may well begin to sort of 

16 re-educate folks out West, so to speak, to say you 

17 know, here's another tool that you can actually be 

18 using, and then can start working with it even 

19 before we perhaps make these annotation changes. I 

20 think also I should just mention that lungworm is 

21 another parasiticide that we need to consider which 

22 of those three are best addressing that or what 
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1 combination with natural alternatives.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Nick, and then 

3 Calvin.

4 MEMBER MARAVELL: I have a two part 

5 here. The first is to take on a question about the 

6 use of parasiticides for sheep for the harvest of 

7 the wool; in your asking of that question, did you 

8 get a sense of whether or not people in favor of that 

9 would use the parasiticide just once twice, or was 

10 there any concept of how often that would be a 

11 permitted practice? And then I have a second.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Use of 

13 parasiticides really amongst the sheep/wood 

14 producers, if they're organic, they can't use it 

15 prophylactically; they can't use it on a regular 

16 basis. They can only use it in an emergency, just 

17 as in any other situation. So I mean they'll still 

18 have to identify those sheep that no longer become 

19 slaughter stocks that are viable, so they'll--right 

20 now what happens is, as you probably know, and 

21 that's why there's so little wool on the market, is 

22 that once they've identified animal number 35 is no 
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1 longer organic slaughter stock, therefore the wool 

2 from that animal can't right now be organic. And 

3 so that animal may still get sheared every year for 

4 the next 10 years, and it's only had one dose of 

5 ivermectin, for example, then it seems like a 

6 remarkable, awful hardship in that situation where 

7 the sheep may live for many years, and even though 

8 it's never going to be slaughter stock to eat, it 

9 could still have been selling year after year its 

10 wool, and there's a lot of support for that to take 

11 place as imagined, especially in the western United 

12 States, if that answers your question.

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right, but my 

14 question was you could treat that same sheep that 

15 lived 10 years on a emergency basis once a year 10 

16 times; is that--I was just wondering if there was 

17 any concept of how that would be--

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: That would be 

19 unlikely. If you did treat it, it would be once; 

20 there would still be a withholding, so you're still 

21 not going to be able to give the animal a 

22 parasiticide one day and then shear it and sell the 
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1 wool as organic the next day. There will still be 

2 a withholding. But yes, it would not happen 

3 continuously throughout the year. And of course 

4 obviously, these sheep farmers, in addition, 

5 they're still doing pasture rotation in a large 

6 area, and the large area they have for the animals 

7 to graze in in their pasture, depending from East 

8 to West, will reduce the likelihood of re-infection 

9 in the same season.

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Calvin, and then 

11 Ashley.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Okay. All right.

13 MEMBER WALKER: This is my last day on 

14 the Board, so I'm going to get out of a lane with 

15 no repercussions. I do support keeping all three 

16 of the parasiticides. The Western Organic Dairy 

17 Producers Alliance, TOM, of 250 organic dairy 

18 farmers in Indiana, Texas, Washington, Oregon, 

19 Utah, California asked that we keep ivermectin on 

20 the list. There was a beef farmer in California 

21 asked that ivermectin also be kept on the list. I 

22 use it; it saved my dog's life, Hercules, with 
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1 heartworms, and the other reason I'm keeping it is 

2 because the livestock group has very few materials 

3 on the National List, and this material is only used 

4 in an emergency situation. It's not something that 

5 you give to your animals or inject every day. So 

6 based on that, I will be voting to keep all three 

7 on the list.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Ashley?

9 MEMBER SWAFFAR: I'm going to change 

10 lanes from my traditional lane. So when I got on 

11 this Board, I didn't know every substance on the 

12 National List, but ivermectin was the one that just 

13 shocked me that it was on the list, just because you 

14 know, growing up around a lot of conventional farms, 

15 I mean that stuff is everywhere, and I was just 

16 absolutely shocked. And then coming from the 

17 poultry industry we have nothing; we use natural 

18 alternatives; they work; we manage our levels. So 

19 just because we remove ivermectin, they still have 

20 two parasiticides and they have natural 

21 alternatives. Don't forget that, because those do 

22 work. So I'm still going to keep my vote to remove 
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1 ivermectin.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Nick?

3 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, the other thing 

4 I wanted to mention is anecdotal. We don't use 

5 parasiticides, but we run beef, and we did 

6 participate in USDA sponsored on farm research with 

7 the Greenbelt Agricultural Research Center and in 

8 a breeding program to breed resistance to parasites 

9 plus management practices. And it was successful. 

10 I'll just put a little note there, but when the lead 

11 researcher left to go elsewhere, USDA literally 

12 pulled the plug on his 17 years of research and his 

13 semen collection, and sold his herd of brute calves 

14 and bulls to auction, which I thought was most 

15 unfortunate because what I'm suggesting here is 

16 that with some attention to detail, we can move away 

17 from parasiticides, and I urge the study that you 

18 were referencing in that they try to go over a 

19 longer period of time, because we did find it was 

20 inherited, and we have never had to treat any 

21 animals born on our farm for parasites.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I think that the 
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1 research is continuing, they just gave us an update 

2 on the three-year benchmark of it. Okay, so what 

3 do we think, are we ready to vote? We beat the horse 

4 dead rather than beat the dead horse?

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: Are we voting on 

6 accepting the discussion document, or are we voting 

7 on the motion? Just tell me what I'm voting on.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, we don't have to 

9 vote on the discussion document. All right. All 

10 right. So, everybody with us out there? You all 

11 haven't given up on us, huh? Okay, don't forget the 

12 dung beetle. Okay, all right. So, first up is as 

13 a reminder, we're voting on these separately. So 

14 the first up for the vote is fenbendazole. Those 

15 in favor of removal of fenbendazole, please signify 

16 by raising your hand. Those opposed? 

17 Abstentions? 

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 14 no; the 

19 motion fails.

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Next up for 

21 vote is ivermectin. Those in favor of removal of 

22 ivermectin, please signify by raising your hand. 
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1 Those opposed? Abstentions?

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: I have 6 yes, 4 no, 4 

3 abstentions; the motion fails.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Finally, we have 

5 moxidectin. Those in favor of removal of 

6 moxidectin, raise your hand. Those opposed? 

7 Abstentions?

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes, 12 no, 2 

9 abstentions; the motion fails.

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Mac?

11 MEMBER STONE: I do have one footnote, 

12 for those of you that have dung beetles, I heard a 

13 story on public radio that they navigate using the 

14 Milky Way, that when they block their access to the 

15 Milky Way with this little helmet thing, they roll 

16 the dung balls in this funny pattern and when they 

17 had access to the Milky Way, they rolled the ball 

18 in a straight line back to their nest.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, those of you 

20 that were following that, yes you can block the 

21 aliens from probing your brain if you will wear a 

22 foil helmet.
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1 CHAIR RICHARDSON: And on those 

2 profound observations, we will take a 15-minute 

3 break, and be back at about 25 minutes to 11 to 

4 continue with livestock.

5 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

6 went off the record at 10:16 a.m. and resumed at

7 10:35 a.m.)

8 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: All right, if we 

9 could all take our seats. I think that we're ready 

10 to continue on with the livestock materials.

11 And we do have an enormous amount of 

12 stuff to get through today. So, if you would take 

13 your seats, I'll be able to turn the meeting back 

14 over to the chair of the Livestock Subcommittee in 

15 order to continue the material.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Jean. 

17 Our next material to discuss this morning is 

18 Peracetic Acid. Dr. Brines?

19 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

20 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

21 National List under (a)(19), Peroxyacetic/ 

22 Peracetic Acid, CAS Number 79-21-0, for sanitizing 
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1 facility and processing equipment. Thank you.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. So, 

3 Peracetic Acid is used as a disinfectant. It's a 

4 relatively new development.

5 Quite often it was acetic acid and 

6 hydrogen peroxide before. They both have a longer 

7 history of use in livestock production. But, more 

8 recently Peracetic Acid has gained in favor.

9 Public comment was overwhelmingly in 

10 support of relisting Peracetic Acid. Noting that 

11 the material is more effective with longer efficacy 

12 then chlorine. And is critical to proper 

13 sanitation in human and animal health.

14 One commenter did ask that when the NOSB 

15 reviewed the material, determine whether it's still 

16 necessary. And I think I'm confident that we've 

17 answered that question.

18 Is there any discussion on Peracetic 

19 Acid?

20 (No audible response.)

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Seeing none, those

22 in favor of removal of Peracetic Acid, signify by 
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1 raising your hand.

2 (Pause.)

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

4 (Pause.)

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

6 (Pause.)

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Fourteen 

8 no. The motion fails.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Next up is 

10 Phosphoric Acid. Dr. Brines?

11 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

12 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

13 National List under (a)(20), Phosphoric Acid. 

14 Allowed as an equipment cleaner provided that no 

15 direct contact with organically managed livestock 

16 or land occurs. Thanks.

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jean?

18 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Yes. 

19 Phosphoric Acid is widely used. And it is widely 

20 support from the community of all stakeholders.

21 And it was voted unanimously in 

22 Subcommittee that it should remain on the National 
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1 List.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any discussion on 

3 Phosphoric Acid?

4 (No audible response.)

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Seeing none, those 

6 in favor of removal of Phosphoric Acid, please raise 

7 your hand.

8 (Pause.)

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

10 (Pause.)

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

12 (Pause.)

13 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Fourteen 

14 no. The motion fails.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Next up is 

16 Poloxalene. Dr. Brines?

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

18 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

19 National List under (a)(21). Poloxalene. CAS 

20 Number 9003-11-6.

21 For use under 7 CFR, Part 205, the NOP 

22 requires that Poloxalene only be used for the 
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1 emergency treatment of bloat.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Francis?

3 MEMBER THICKE: There really isn't much 

4 more to say. It's used for acute bloat. And for 

5 beginning bloat other things can be used. But this 

6 is for emergency use only.

7 So, there weren't a lot of comments on 

8 it. But, there was support for relisting it.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Discussion? 

10 Colehour?

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, thank you. 

12 Francis, I don't know if you can remind me, or expand 

13 on, I thought that we had a comment from Dr. Karreman 

14 regarding delisting on this item if I recall in 

15 review.

16 That's why I ended up voting to delist. 

17 And I'd like you to comment on that --

18 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

19 MEMBER BONDERA: And/or update if you 

20 --

21 MEMBER THICKE: I'm sorry. Dr. Hugh 

22 Karreman did say olive oil and other vegetable oils 
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1 can be used.

2 However, he said -- indicated that often 

3 you have to treat with these oils before it gets to 

4 the point of the animal getting, you know, ready to 

5 die. It's very fast.

6 And normally what people do, is when 

7 they get that far is, they pull their pocket knife 

8 out and stick it in their stomach and let the air 

9 out. And so, his point I think is that there's very 

10 lit -- there's a very little window where this 

11 material actually could be use -- would be used.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any further 

13 discussion? Nick?

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. I'm not quite 

15 following here. So, that there are natural 

16 alternatives and equally as effective, but if we 

17 don't get there in time, we pierce the rumen and 

18 release the pressure.

19 So, what would make this, you know, 

20 preferable to using the natural alternative? Was 

21 there some -- did I miss something in that?

22 MEMBER THICKE: I think the drawback 
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1 would be you'd have a hole in the cow's rumen.

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: No, but I -- what I 

3 was hearing is that -- is the Poloxalene any more 

4 effective? In other words, you could have that 

5 hole either way is what I, you know?

6 Well, all right, so I don't understand. 

7 We don't have the problem. I don't understand.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I'm just going to 

9 offer an observation that we need to be careful 

10 about arbitrarily removing materials that got onto 

11 the list for a particular reason. There may be some 

12 alternatives out there.

13 But, particularly in the case of acute 

14 bloat, I think that would warrant having something 

15 for emergencies. And I'd hate to see us 

16 arbitrarily remove it just because we think it's not 

17 needed anymore.

18 Nick, I understand your -- Francis?

19 MEMBER THICKE: I guess bloat is 

20 something as you know, that comes on quickly. And 

21 the at symptoms you can just get the cow awake in 

22 the field where it's causing it.
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1 And you can walk them around. And you 

2 can put maybe a tube down the -- its throat. And 

3 you can do things. But as it gets worse and worse, 

4 you have to use more and more drastic measures.

5 And this -- apparently this Poloxalene 

6 is something that will be effective even when you 

7 get to the point where the oils won't be effective.

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: Okay.

9 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

10 MEMBER MARAVELL: That's what I was 

11 asking. Thank you.

12 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. Sorry.

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: Thank you.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Okay, 

15 any further discussion?

16 (No audible response.)

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: All right. Those in 

18 favor of removal of Poloxalene, signify by raising 

19 your hand.

20 (Pause.)

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

22 (Pause.)
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

2 (Pause.)

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Thirteen 

4 no. One abstention. The motion fails.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. The next step 

6 is Tolazoline. Dr. Brines?

7 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Tolazoline is 

8 included at Section 205.603 of the National List 

9 under (a)(22), Tolazoline. CAS Number 59-98-3.

10 Federal law restricts this drug to use 

11 by or on the lawful written or oral order of a 

12 licensed veterinarian in full compliance with the 

13 AMDUCA and 21 CFR Part 530 of the Food and Drug 

14 Administration Regulations.

15 Also for use under 7 CFR Part 205, the 

16 NOP requires (1) use by or on the lawful written 

17 order of a licensed veterinarian; (2) use only to 

18 reverse the effects of sedation in analgesia cause 

19 by Xylazine; and (3) a meat withdrawal period of at 

20 last eight days after administering to livestock 

21 intended for slaughter and a milk discard period of 

22 at least four days after administering to dairy 
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1 animal.

2 Thanks.

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Francis?

4 MEMBER THICKE: Yes. Tolazoline is 

5 use in conjunction with Xylazine, which is the next 

6 material that we're going to look at.

7 Xylazine is used as a sedative and pain 

8 killer and muscle relaxant and in bio-dip. And 

9 Tolazoline is used to reverse the effects of 

10 Xylazine.

11 So, we had some comments in favor. They 

12 were basically, I think, all in all that we don't 

13 have much reason to remove it.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Discussion?

15 (No audible response.)

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Seeing none, those 

17 in favor of removal of Tolazoline, raise your hand.

18 (Pause.)

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those against?

20 (Pause.)

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

22 (Pause.)
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: One yes. Thirteen 

2 no. The motion fails.

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Next up is Xylazine. 

4 Dr. Brines?

5 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

6 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

7 National List under (a)(23), Xylazine. At CAS 

8 Number 7361-61-7.

9 Federal law restricts this drug to use 

10 by or on the lawful written or oral order of a 

11 licensed veterinarian in full compliance with the 

12 AMDUCA and 21 CFR Part 530 of the Food and Drug 

13 Administration Regulations.

14 Also for use under 7 CFR Part 205, the 

15 NOP requires (1) use by or on the lawful written 

16 order of a licensed veterinarian; (2) the existence 

17 of an emergency; and (3) a meat withdrawal period 

18 of at least eight days after administering to 

19 livestock intended for slaughter and a milk discard 

20 period of at least four days after administering to 

21 dairy animals.

22 Thanks.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Colehour?

2 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Let's 

3 see, where to start with this one? It's pretty 

4 simple.

5 And I realized at this meeting in the 

6 last process that I keep writing down myself a note. 

7 And Lisa just repeated it, as to the understood 

8 definition of the word emergency is interesting. 

9 Especially since she just read that.

10 And it said you must have a licensed 

11 veterinarian recommendation. And then the next 

12 line is, and you must have an emergency.

13 And so, I feel like that that word is an 

14 interesting word that keeps getting used. That's 

15 interesting.

16 Like, Francis stated, Xylazine is the 

17 sedative, a painkiller, a muscle relaxant. It's 

18 used in conjunction with Tolazoline.

19 I think that we worked through the 

20 issues of the history of this process in terms of 

21 where its use is permitted. Public comment as well 

22 as Subcommittee vote were in support of the 
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1 relisting in general.

2 And I think that the only other thing 

3 that I want to add to this is to make sure it's in 

4 the record that I strongly feel that in the future 

5 within the NOSB, that the two items, Xylazine and 

6 Tolazoline should be considered and reviewed either 

7 by the same person or in more -- in some methodology 

8 that would allow associated reviews.

9 Because you know, when we're talking 

10 about them, it's hard to talk about them separately. 

11 Because they aren't needed or used separately.

12 And so, I want to make that note. But 

13 otherwise, thank you.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Discussion on 

15 Xylazine?

16 (No audible response.)

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those in favor of 

18 removal of Xylazine from the National List, please 

19 raise your hand?

20 (Pause.)

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those against?

22 (Pause.)
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions --

2 Jennifer, is that an abstention or an against? I 

3 can't -- okay, abstentions?

4 (Pause.) 

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Fourteen 

6 no. The motion fails.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Next up for 

8 discussion is Copper Sulfate. Dr. Brines?

9 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

10 substance is included at Section 205.603(b) of the 

11 National List as topical treatment, external 

12 parasiticide or local anesthetic as applicable, (1) 

13 Copper Sulfate. Thanks.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Copper 

15 Sulfate, we've had lots of conversations about 

16 Copper Sulfate since my time on the Board.

17 Primarily used as a walkthrough 

18 footbath to help control and prevent hoof related 

19 diseases in dairy cattle and sheep. Usually it's 

20 a 5 to 10 percent Copper Sulfate solution.

21 Concerns using -- about using Copper 

22 Sulfate include the -- primarily the disposal of the 
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1 Copper Sulfate solution. It's quite often dumped 

2 into the lagoon with other manure and then at some 

3 point applied to the land.

4 It's interesting, in public comment 

5 we've had several people in oral testimony as well 

6 as written, state that they haven't seen the Copper 

7 accumulation that has been expressed by some 

8 people. Particularly I think in western States 

9 where the soils are slightly Copper deficient.

10 In some cases it hasn't been a problem 

11 at all. But nevertheless, that has been one of the 

12 concerns about accumulation of Copper Sulfate.

13 We did ask -- Zinc Sulfate was actually 

14 recommended for inclusion on the National List at 

15 the spring meeting. And while it's not yet through 

16 rulemaking, hopefully that will give producers an 

17 opportunity at some point to maybe switch it up some 

18 time.

19 There actually are some studies that 

20 show a combination of zinc and Copper Sulfate 

21 combined, thereby reducing reliance on both. And 

22 the percentage of both has actually be more 
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1 effective than one over the other.

2 One group opposed an -- group proposed 

3 an annotation require soil testing to monitor for 

4 Copper accumulation.

5 Comment was also received refuting the 

6 TR statement that there are no non-synthetic 

7 alternatives to Copper Sulfate. In particular a 

8 hydrated line was put forth as an alternative to 

9 control fungal diseases in cows and sheep.

10 The vote coming out of Subcommittee was 

11 yes -- one yes to remove, five no, two absent. Do 

12 we have any discussion on Copper Sulfate? 

13 Colehour?

14 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, thank you. I 

15 hereby request that the suggested annotation be 

16 considered by the Livestock Subcommittee as 

17 something to add to future work plan. Thank you.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Just on clear. The 

19 annotation requiring soil testing?

20 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, thank you.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, thank you. 

22 Any other discussion on Copper Sulfate?
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1 (No audible response.)

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Seeing none, those 

3 in favor of removal of Copper Sulfate from the 

4 National List, please raise your hand.

5 (Pause.)

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

7 (Pause.)

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

9 (Pause.)

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Thirteen 

11 no. One abstention. The motion fails.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Next up is 

13 Formic Acid. Dr. Brines?

14 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

15 substance is included at Section 205.603(b) of the 

16 National List. And reads as (2) Formic Acid, CAS 

17 Number 64-18-6. For use as a pesticide solely 

18 within honey beehive. Thanks.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Colehour. That was 

20 yours, right?

21 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. Thank you. 

22 Right, so Formic Acid is used to control varroa and 
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1 tracheal mites in bees. I want to pull it over 

2 here, but I'm trying to do too many things on my 

3 table.

4 But, like I put forth in the 

5 recommendation via communication with the largest 

6 honey producer in the State of Hawaii who I'm not 

7 going to declare a conflict of interest of being 

8 friends with, but I know fairly well.

9 You know, in the state of Hawaii he's 

10 able to, he has the land space to be producing large 

11 volumes of certified organic honey. Not all of his 

12 honey is organic.

13 But, that is his ideal. He's fourth 

14 generation beekeeper. And he stated to me, like I 

15 said, I put forth there that without Formic Acid, 

16 his 4,000 hive operation would completely no longer 

17 be able to be certified organic, having worked and 

18 tried all of the other possibilities.

19 So, despite the fact that I am not 

20 thrilled and do not generally encourage the listing 

21 or relisting or dependency on synthetics, you know, 

22 we didn't get a lot of comments on this. And you 
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1 know, the Subcommittee was supportive of not 

2 removing from the list.

3 I am left feeling like this is something 

4 that we have to recognize that if the bees die, we're 

5 not going to go very far. So, thank you.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Tom?

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So, Colehour, if you 

8 could clarify this product -- is this livestock 

9 product really dependent upon a synthetic like 

10 ethylene to pineapple?

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, but -- and I don't 

12 really want to get into the open conversation that 

13 you're almost opening the door for in terms of 

14 realistically and honestly. They're 

15 extraordinarily different.

16 This is frankly an external 

17 parasiticide, a local anesthetic like it states, 

18 like Lisa read. This is to deal with honeybee hives 

19 when the problems that I already referred to, varroa 

20 and tracheal mites are permitted in.

21 And to very briefly respond to your 

22 comment, it's -- ethylene gas in pineapples is just 
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1 to induce flowering. That is why it's used. 

2 That's not in response or dealing with an 

3 uncontrollable problem that you're having, that 

4 you're responding to in "emergency" fashion.

5 So, yes, but no.

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any other 

8 discussion?

9 (No audible response.)

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those in favor --

11 Harold?

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: I agree with Colehour. 

13 I think it's critical material needed for the 

14 beekeepers. I've had a lot of exposure with our 

15 local beekeepers up here.

16 Although they may not be organic, some 

17 of them, but they definitely rely on this material 

18 in their hives for treatment of the parasites that 

19 attack the bees for varroa mite, tracheal mite. 

20 So, I think it's definitely one of those materials 

21 for the beekeepers that it's essential.

22 And without the pollinators, a lot of 
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1 our crops aren't going to exist. So, I'm going to 

2 be in full support of this material staying on the 

3 list.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any other 

5 discussion?

6 (No audible response.)

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Seeing none, 

8 those in favor of removing Formic Acid, please raise 

9 your hand.

10 (Pause.)

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

12 (Pause.)

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

14 (Pause.)

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Fourteen 

16 no. The motion fails.

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Next step is 

18 Lidocaine. Dr. Brines?

19 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

20 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

21 National List under (b)(4), Lidocaine, as a local 

22 anesthetic. Use requires a withdrawal period of 90 
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1 days after administering to livestock intended for 

2 slaughter. And seven days after administering to 

3 dairy animals. Thanks.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jane?

5 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Yes, Lidocaine 

6 is a simple, topical treatment. It's important in 

7 the humane treatment of animals undergoing minor 

8 surgery or for dehorning for example in cows.

9 And it is very broadly supported by all 

10 members of the organic community. And in 

11 Subcommittee the vote was unanimous to keep 

12 Lidocaine on the National List.

13 We will be addressing the issue of 

14 perhaps reducing the withholding period in a few 

15 minutes when we get to that discussion document.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Any 

17 discussion on Lidocaine?

18 (No audible response.)

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: All those in favor of 

20 removal of Lidocaine, please raise your hand.

21 (Pause.)

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?
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1 (Pause.)

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: any abstentions?

3 (Pause.)

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Fourteen 

5 no. The Motion fails.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: And just a point of 

7 clarification. We did have Iodine in the list as 

8 next. But when we did the vote last time, we did 

9 it for both listings. So that's why we got to skip 

10 it.

11 Okay. Next up is Lime Hydrated. Dr. 

12 Brines?

13 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

14 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

15 National List under (b)(5), Lime Hydrated. As an 

16 external pest control not permitted to cauterize 

17 physical alterations or deodorize animal waste. 

18 Thanks.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Hold on a second. 

20 You caught me asleep at the wheel here for just a 

21 minute.

22 Hydrated Lime, produced primarily by 
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1 heating Calcium Carbonate which results in a Quick 

2 Lime. It can be caustic if inhaled. Respiratory 

3 protection should be used during application.

4 We did have limited public comment on 

5 this. Citing the essentiality of the material for 

6 controlling external parasites and for control of 

7 foot infections.

8 The Subcommittee was unanimous in its 

9 decision to retain Hydrated Lime on the list. Any 

10 discussion? Francis?

11 MEMBER THICKE: I just want to say that 

12 we should be encouraging use of Hydrated Lime in 

13 place of Copper Sulfate for hoof or foot pads.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, thank you. Any 

15 other discussion?

16 (No audible response.)

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Seeing none, 

18 all those in favor of removing Hydrated Lime for the 

19 Nation List, please raise your hand.

20 (Pause.)

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

22 (Pause.)
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

2 (Pause.)

3 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Fourteen 

4 no. And the motion fails.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Next up is Mineral 

6 Oil. Dr. Brines?

7 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

8 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

9 National List under (b)(6), Mineral Oil for topical 

10 use and as a lubricant. Thanks.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Mineral Oil 

12 was approved in 1995 on the National List. Public 

13 comment was extensive in support of this material, 

14 almost unanimously in support, citing its 

15 importance in fly control.

16 The vote out of subcommittee was one 

17 yes, to remove, two no, one abstention, one absence. 

18 So we had a little bit of a mish-mash there.

19 Any discussion on Mineral Oil? 

20 Francis?

21 MEMBER THICKE: Yes. I'm the one who 

22 voted against it. Not that I'm going to vote 
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1 against it today. But, I think that Mineral Oil is 

2 used often where we could use vegetable oil.

3 And like for example fly control. I 

4 found that organic soybean oil sprayed on the cow's 

5 back will key the horn flies on contact.

6 And so there are a lot of places where 

7 Mineral might be needed. But I think in a lot of 

8 places where we could use vegetable oil and we don't 

9 need to use Mineral Oil.

10 I just wanted to put that on the record.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Other comments?

12 (No audible response.)

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Seeing none, 

14 those in favor of removal of Mineral Oil from the 

15 National List, please raise your hand.

16 (Pause.)

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

18 (Pause.)

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Two yes. Twelve no. 

21 The motion fails.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Next up on 
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1 our list is Procaine. Dr. Brines?

2 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

3 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

4 National List under (b)(7), Procaine. As a local 

5 anesthetic.

6 Use requires a withdrawal period of 90 

7 days after administering to livestock intended for 

8 slaughter and seven days after administering to 

9 dairy animals. Thanks.

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jane?

11 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Yes. Procaine. 

12 Sort of interesting its -- I mean it's similar to 

13 Lidocaine in being used as a simple topical 

14 anesthetic.

15 However, what's interesting about this 

16 one and puts you on the horns of a dilemma is that 

17 we have public comment which indicates that 

18 Procaine is not readily available in the United 

19 States. And does not appear to be being used per 

20 se, as itself.

21 And it may not be essential. And it may 

22 not continue to be needed. So, for example, I heard 
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1 from one veterinarian that says that Procaine 

2 should be removed from the National List of allowed 

3 synthetics because to my knowledge, it has no use 

4 by itself in livestock in the United States.

5 And certifying agencies around the 

6 country make comments such as we do not observe this 

7 material being used by any of our farmers. The --

8 let's see, several veterinarians said it's never 

9 used and it's not available in the United States.

10 And other organizations, consumer 

11 organizations, remain neutral on this. Or would 

12 suggest that it be withdrawn.

13 There are no specific problem criteria 

14 so to speak of our six, you know, ones that we 

15 typically -- or seven, that we look at. Except for 

16 the issue of necessity, essentiality kind of 

17 things.

18 It doesn't appear to be essential. It 

19 doesn't appear to be necessary. So, it could be 

20 removed. Although I'm always reluctant to remove 

21 one of the tools in the toolbox where it doesn't seem 

22 to be causing any problems.
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1 So, it's up to you guys what it is that 

2 you wanted to do with this one. Francis, do you 

3 have some ideas?

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Ashley?

5 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Jean, were you able to 

6 confirm if it was available in the U.S.? Or not 

7 available?

8 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: I couldn't find a 

9 source of Procaine on its own as a -- no. I couldn't 

10 find a source of that in the U.S. at the present 

11 time.

12 And that certainly was confirmed by the 

13 Veterinarians that provided us with written public 

14 comment.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Nick?

16 MEMBER MARAVELL: Jean, is Procaine 

17 used with Lidocaine in formulation?

18 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: No. Procaine 

19 and Lidocaine are not used together.

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I did actually -- oh, 

21 excuse me, Francis. I did actually have a 

22 conversation with someone who told me that Procaine 
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1 is sometimes used for on farm surgeries in the 

2 United States.

3 So we might want to consider that. 

4 Francis and then Tom.

5 MEMBER THICKE: What I saw in one of the 

6 comments to, and what I've heard is that Procaine 

7 is often mixed with antibiotics. And so that's why 

8 it's not used alone often.

9 That's -- which is -- it can't be used 

10 by us anyways then.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Tom?

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Okay. I just wanted 

13 to note that we did get, I think it was 14 checklists 

14 from farmers saying that they used it.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Or that they wanted to 

17 continue its allowance.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jean?

19 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Yes. I sort of 

20 found that a little bit confusing to me. Certainly 

21 the certifiers say that its not used. And the only 

22 forms in which I've ever seen it being utilized is 
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1 with antibiotics.

2 So, therefore, it couldn't really have 

3 been used on organic farms. So, that was sort of 

4 a confusing comment to me in terms of how to deal 

5 with it.

6 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Tom?

7 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Jean, are you aware of 

8 all certifiers commented? Okay.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Any further 

10 discussion on Procaine?

11 (No audible response.)

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Seeing none, 

13 all those in favor of removal of Procaine signify 

14 by raising your hand.

15 (Pause.)

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

17 (Pause.)

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

19 (Pause.)

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Tom?

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Three yes. Nine no. 

22 Two abstentions. The motion fails.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Next up is 

2 Sucrose Octanoate Esters. Dr. Brines?

3 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

4 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

5 National List under (b)(8), Sucrose Octanoate 

6 Esters. The CAS Numbers 42922-75-7, 58064-47-4. 

7 In accordance with approved labeling. Thanks.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Francis?

9 MEMBER THICKE: So, Sucrose Octanoate 

10 Esters, SOEs, are surfactants that lower the 

11 surface tension of liquid. And they're also 

12 registered as -- by EPA as a biopesticide.

13 And it's used to control soft-bodied 

14 insects like mites. Especially with honeybees. 

15 And we didn't get a lot of comments. But we had a 

16 few comments in favor of it.

17 And the Subcommittee thought that given 

18 the problems beekeepers are facing, that we should 

19 leave it on the list. And we voted unanimously to 

20 keep it on the list.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any discussion on 

22 SOE, Sucrose Octanoate Esters? Tom?
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Is it only used in the 

2 beekeep area?

3 MEMBER THICKE: We don't know that 

4 because we didn't get enough comments to know where 

5 it's really used. And so, it could be used more 

6 widely.

7 But, I can't answer that.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I think it's 

9 probably important to note that it's considered 

10 fairly benign. And does break down rapidly, 

11 biodegradable.

12 It's not persistent nor does it tend to 

13 accumulate in the environment. Any further 

14 discussion?

15 (No audible response.)

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Seeing non --

17 Jennifer?

18 MEMBER TAYLOR: Are there any 

19 alternatives that go with kind of the management 

20 strategies that can be used with that?

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: She was asking if 

22 there were any natural alternatives that can be used 
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1 instead? No, I have bees.

2 I'm not a beekeeper on a commercial 

3 scale. I do have honeybees. And there are other 

4 means for controlling mites. Including dusting 

5 with powdered sugar and things.

6 But I don't know that that's practical 

7 on a commercial scale. Harold?

8 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes. There's nothing 

9 that I'm aware of that would be an alternative for 

10 this one. For how it's intended use is.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any further 

12 discussion?

13 (No audible response.)

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Seeing none, 

15 those in favor of removal of Sucrose Octanoate 

16 Esters, please raise your hand.

17 (Pause.)

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

19 (Pause.)

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

21 (Pause.)

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Fourteen 
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1 no. The motion fails.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Thank you. 

3 Next up is DL-Methionine. Dr. Brines?

4 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

5 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

6 National List under (d) as Feed Additives, (1) 

7 DL-Methionine, DL-Methionine Hydroxy Analog and 

8 DL-Methionine Hydroxy Analog Calcium. CAS Numbers 

9 59-51-8, 583-91-5, 4857-44-7, and 922-50-9.

10 For use only in organic poultry 

11 production at the following maximum levels of 

12 synthetic Methionine per ton of feed. Laying and 

13 broiler chickens, two pounds. Turkeys and all 

14 other poultry, three pounds. Thanks.

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. So, I'm 

16 having a little bit of deja vu and PTSD on this 

17 material.

18 We should note for the public that we did 

19 actually pass a revised annotation on this material 

20 in La Jolla that allows for a use of two pounds 

21 average for layers, two and a half pounds for 

22 broilers and three pounds -- these are all averages 
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1 over the life of the flock.

2 That did pass in La Jolla. I think most 

3 of those in the audience are quite familiar with 

4 this material from having been in lengthy and 

5 divided conversations about this in the past.

6 I won't belabor the point except to say 

7 that there was continued support and opposition to 

8 this material. Generally those in favor of 

9 continued listing indicate that -- and just so you 

10 know, we're going through and voting on the Sunset 

11 in the event that the rulemaking for the annotation 

12 change doesn't get through in time so that we don't 

13 have a gap.

14 So, this is sort of a bookkeeping, 

15 administrative function here. But, generally 

16 those in favor of continued listing indicate that 

17 it is critical to the production of organic poultry 

18 and cite issues around animal welfare.

19 Those against continued listing 

20 expressed deep concerns around the continued and 

21 routine use of its synthetic ingredient in organic 

22 animal feed. And predict erosion of public trust 
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1 if synthetics remain in organic poultry production.

2 One group has reiterated the position 

3 that Methionine is hormonally active and can be 

4 misused as a growth stimulant. Others have 

5 rejected that assertion and insist the material is 

6 necessary to meet nutritional requirements for the 

7 bird regardless of the management practices.

8 And by that I mean whether there is 

9 indoor or outdoor access. Commenters on both sides 

10 of the relisting of this material have urged organic 

11 producers to continue to research options for 

12 non-synthetic Methionine.

13 And we did hear in public comment from 

14 a member of the Methionine task force that gave us 

15 some updates on the work that they're doing on that 

16 since our last meeting. Before we open it up for 

17 questions from the Board, we'll let Miles speak to 

18 it.

19 MR. McEVOY: Yes. I just wanted to 

20 give an update on where we are with the 

21 recommendation on Methionine.

22 It's part of a proposed rule that we plan 
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1 to publish really early next year on some -- with 

2 Methionine and a number of other recommendations 

3 made by the Board on amendments to the National 

4 List.

5 So, that's moving forward very smoothly 

6 at this point. And we should have a proposed rule 

7 out on this early next year.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Miles. 

9 Any discussion on Methionine? Calvin?

10 MEMBER WALKER: Madam Chair, could you 

11 speak to the group where we're at with the organic 

12 poultry working group for the Board, had passed a

13 resolution 15 to zero in terms of moving that along?

14 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Yes. Thank you 

15 for reminding me. I did not mention the resolution 

16 we passed, did -- as Calvin stated, was unanimous 

17 in that we urged the industry to move forward with 

18 research into genetics management practices and 

19 other materials that don't rely on synthetic 

20 Methionine.

21 We did bring this before the Executive 

22 Committee out of Livestock. Asked to put it on our 
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1 work agenda immediately.

2 However, we've been asked to delay that 

3 due to the work load with Sunset. And it's still 

4 up for discussion for inclusion.

5 We have submitted a full proposal for 

6 how we might move forward to that to the program in 

7 the Executive Committee. So, we're hopeful that it 

8 will be on the work agenda soon. Thank you. 

9 Calvin?

10 MEMBER WALKER: And I think that needs 

11 to be done. I will be off the Board and I know that 

12 the organic poultry group that's there during 

13 public testimony, that that organic poultry working 

14 group, it's a good thing.

15 So, I hope that the program would allow 

16 that to go forward.

17 MR. McEVOY: Yes. We have received the 

18 request for this organic working group. Part of 

19 our question is the purpose and the scope of it.

20 Is this an organic working group that 

21 just consists of the Board and the program and other 

22 government entities? Or does this also include 
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1 external parties?

2 If it includes external parties, then we 

3 have to move forward with an official task force. 

4 Which is more involved. We certainly can do that.

5 But, that's more resources. And it 

6 takes more time to set up an official task force to 

7 the Board to report to the Board on this particular 

8 topic.

9 So, we're still, from our perspective, 

10 looking for clarification from the Board on exactly 

11 what it is that you're requesting so we can 

12 facilitate supporting this work.

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Nick?

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: Are you looking for 

15 that clarification now? Or when?

16 MR. McEVOY: We don't need that 

17 clarification now. This is usually something that 

18 is done at the Executive Committee level.

19 So, we're certainly open to hearing your 

20 thoughts. But, we don't need that specific 

21 clarification at this point.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Ashley?
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1 MEMBER SWAFFAR: I'll say this is the 

2 least active we have all talked as a Board on 

3 Methionine. I think we're a little tired of it.

4 But I just want to go on the record and 

5 say that Methionine is an essential amino acid 

6 required by poultry. And in my experience working 

7 with flocks with the minimal outdoor access to 

8 outdoor access 108 square foot per bird, we still 

9 need Methionine in every one of those flock 

10 scenarios that we have.

11 So, this is essential for organic 

12 poultry.

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: So, just a point of 

14 clarification and then we'll come to Colehour. As 

15 a follow up to that Ashley.

16 So, you're saying that you don't see a 

17 change in need from Methionine, whether they have 

18 large amounts of outdoor access on pasture or not?

19 MEMBER SWAFFAR: That is correct. On 

20 our big pastured operations, we don't have very many 

21 bugs around because they're awful smart.

22 You look outside of our fences, 
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1 grasshoppers everywhere. It's like they know 

2 where the chickens get to. It's a chase.

3 So, you know, that's been brought up a 

4 lot in comments that, you know, they'll get --

5 they'll forage on insects and things like that. 

6 But, we don't have any insects in our field.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Colehour?

8 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, thank you. Like 

9 you said, this is the same old, same old to some 

10 degree. But I don't disagree with Ashley's 

11 experience or her comments.

12 However, I think that we need to 

13 recognize or at least be honest about two simple 

14 aspects. One is, synthetic courses of Methionine.

15 Nobody has questioned or stated, I 

16 haven't heard one person ever say that poultry 

17 doesn't need Methionine. What they've said and 

18 what all of the discussion has been about, is the 

19 source of Methionine.

20 So, I think that's a vital clarification 

21 that needs to not be let slip through the cracks. 

22 And I think that although it's been referred to, I 
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1 think we need to make sure that we're cognizant of, 

2 you know, when you do something like look at the 

3 western European ways of raising poultry and this 

4 process, it brings up -- and that's not an example, 

5 it's just a comment.

6 Because it brings up the reality. And 

7 I've interacted here at this meeting and in past now 

8 years with people. It comes down to some degree or 

9 is highly correlated with breed.

10 And so we need -- that word was included 

11 when Tracy commented and said genetic. But I think 

12 that we need to recognize that synthetic Methionine 

13 wasn't depended upon in poultry raising, you know, 

14 if you look historically for very long.

15 So, I think that we need to be cognizant 

16 and careful. And recognize that organic can be 

17 different.

18 And strive to achieve rather than strive 

19 to rely on some dependency that's been created via 

20 genetic changes and via synthetic formulations that 

21 have been put forth. Thank you.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Ashley?
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1 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Yes. One thing I want 

2 to talk about breeds just a little bit. Because 

3 that gets brought up quite a bit.

4 For us in the U.S., we have four 

5 commercial strains of ground birds. Is it four or 

6 five? And you know, they are bred for laying. 

7 That is their thing.

8 And I hear a lot of people talk about we 

9 should use alternative breeds and things like that. 

10 Some challenges that we face as an industry with 

11 that is the fabulous rule that the FDA put out called 

12 the Egg Safety Rule.

13 And that requires that chicks come from 

14 an MPIP Salmonella Enteritidis clean hatchery. 

15 And a lot of the alternative breeds, those 

16 hatcheries cannot meet those requirements mandated 

17 by the FDA.

18 So that's a challenge in the poultry 

19 industry that we have looking at alternative 

20 breeds. That's our biggest issue.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Colehour?

22 MEMBER BONDERA: Excuse me, thank you. 
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1 I do hear you and agree. And I'm aware of this.

2 But I think that to some degree along the 

3 lines, and I hadn't actually intended to respond to 

4 it, but I think Miles, when he brought up this 

5 Methionine working group versus an appointed task 

6 force, in terms of how this subject is being 

7 pursued, relates back to the fact that yes, you 

8 know, this isn't the simple situation.

9 Because the Federal Government at 

10 different levels, like you just said, the FDA have 

11 restrictions. So, there isn't -- the breeding 

12 stock because it's not happening because of the 

13 control.

14 But, that's not our role within the 

15 NOSB. All we can do is make -- and I'm not saying 

16 that Miles or the NOP can do anything. This isn't 

17 an easy process.

18 But, you know, I think my recommendation 

19 or encouragement is that the NOP needs to talk to 

20 the FDA. And say look, this doesn't function 

21 within the rubric of organic poultry production.

22 You know, and work and strive to 
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1 achieve, you know, I don't -- I'm not going to call 

2 them exceptions or changes. But I think like I 

3 said, this, you know, the NOP taking its action and 

4 efforts down this path in a different way then we 

5 are capable of, I think could and should be 

6 happening simultaneously and be sought.

7 And I don't want to get too far off base 

8 here. But, I do want to comment about the fact that 

9 when Miles was stating this regarding the 

10 Methionine working group is unclear what about an 

11 appointed task force.

12 What popped to my mind was all of a 

13 sudden we have a hydroponics task force appointed. 

14 Where I don't remember the NOSB recommending that 

15 it needs to be -- we need a hydroponics task force.

16 What I remember is that it was unclear 

17 to the NOP what was wanted. And they couldn't get 

18 what was wanted from the NOSB. So, they reached 

19 that conclusion.

20 The NOP is like, let's take the lead and 

21 take the action. My point is, the NOP can, and this 

22 example I just gave is an example of where they have 
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1 decided okay. We're going to figure out how to 

2 pursue these issues because the NOSB can't do 

3 everything in terms of coming up with the right 

4 process.

5 So, yellow flag is all I'm raising. 

6 Thank you.

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Calvin?

8 MEMBER WALKER: I was at mega dittos 

9 Colehour. The organic poultry working group, the 

10 reason why I raised it, is that we passed the 

11 resolution. It may not be in that form, Miles.

12 But something of that nature needs to 

13 be. Because five years from now, I'll be in 

14 Louisiana hearing the fight over Methionine again.

15 So, something needs to be done to 

16 provide to the Livestock Subcommittee on this 

17 matter in some form or fashion.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Miles? 

19 MR. McEVOY: Okay. We're hearing the 

20 message. Thank you.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Ashley?

22 MEMBER SWAFFAR: So, on that point 
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1 Calvin, I think even if NOP doesn't take swift 

2 action as to our request, I think the industry has 

3 heard our statements loud and clear.

4 Every time I talk to somebody they say 

5 hey, here's what I got going on. You know, we've 

6 looked at this. We've looked at this. And we're 

7 working on this study.

8 So, I think we're going to see a lot of 

9 work out of industry on this. And that makes me 

10 really happy that they get our message of we need 

11 a solution to this.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Last comment.

13 MEMBER WALKER: One of my views is I 

14 think Katrina Heinze mentioned about the continued 

15 fighting in the press among Board Members about this 

16 issue here. I just think that if we can't get 

17 synthetic Methionine off the books, we need to find 

18 a way to grandfather in the organic poultry 

19 producers at some level.

20 And that was in the minority report. 

21 Because five, ten years, this fight continues. And 

22 it does nothing but hurt the label of organic if we 
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1 continue to fight over this issue.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any further 

3 discussion?

4 (No audible response.)

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Seeing none, 

6 all those in favor of removal of DL-Methionine from 

7 the National List, please raise your hand.

8 (Pause.)

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

10 (Pause.)

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

12 (Pause.)

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Three yes. Ten no. 

15 One abstention. The motion fails.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I'm delighted to say 

17 that will probably be my last vote on Methionine 

18 while I'm on this Board. Thank you.

19 Next up is Trace Minerals.

20 DR. BRINES: This substance is included 

21 at Section 205.603 of the National List under (d) 

22 as Feed Additives, (2) Trace Minerals used for 
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1 enrichment or fortification when FDA approved. 

2 Thanks.

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. From the 

4 Livestock Subcommittee review in 1995, the 

5 recommendation citing that producers may often not 

6 be able to control the quantity of vitamins and 

7 minerals natural occurring in feed stuffs. Hence 

8 the vitamins and mineral supplements.

9 Public comment weighed heavily in favor 

10 of continued listing of Trace Minerals, citing the 

11 essentiality of minerals to ensure animal welfare 

12 and to offset variables and forage nutrition due to 

13 seasonality.

14 One group did suggest an annotation to 

15 limit synthetic minerals to use for those times when 

16 forage quality is inadequate for proper nutrition.

17 Any discussion on Trace Minerals? 

18 Jennifer?

19 MEMBER TAYLOR: So, will the Livestock 

20 Subcommittee reexamine and add an annotation that 

21 deals with that?

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Louder please.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: She asked if we would 

2 consider the Livestock Subcommittee looking at a 

3 potential annotation. I personally am disinclined 

4 to.

5 For the simple reason, I have livestock. 

6 And it would be incredibly cumbersome to -- I mean, 

7 there are certain times of the year when the 

8 nutrition is not there. When my forage and my 

9 pasture goes dormant.

10 And for me to have to document that 

11 fluctuation throughout the season would be a pretty 

12 significant burden. Because pastures vary.

13 Different feed stuffs and different 

14 pastures. And if you rotate your animals and graze 

15 them and move them every day, then you significantly 

16 have to be testing.

17 And I don't think it's a very practical 

18 suggestion actually. But, I'm open to hearing 

19 comments from others on the Committee.

20 Jean?

21 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Jennifer, I'm 

22 not clear what the annotation line would be. What 
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1 was it that you had in mind?

2 MEMBER TAYLOR: I was wondering if it 

3 might address, we have a comment here that addressed 

4 and she read it. When foraging and available 

5 natural feed are in poor quality.

6 And so, I was wondering if that would be 

7 something that the -- yes. She read it and that 

8 answered it.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: So, she was just 

10 reiterating the suggestion that the annotation read 

11 something that we would limit synthetic minerals to 

12 use for those times when forage quality is 

13 inadequate. Jean?

14 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: As someone that 

15 does a lot of livestock inspection, as an organic 

16 inspector, that really isn't terribly practical. 

17 Because what happens is you work with a -- typically 

18 the farmers that I would see in the northeast, they 

19 work with an individual feed company with a 

20 nutritionist on that -- at that feed company. And 

21 also with their veterinarian and with the breeds 

22 that they're working on.
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1 And they determine an annual cycle of 

2 feed mixes that they want for their animals. And 

3 they're fed different ratios depending on the 

4 breed, the area that they're in and the age of the 

5 animal.

6 And so, you can't sort of just keep

7 switching feeds when you -- up and down like that. 

8 Those premixes, they're set. And they're buying 

9 them at so many tons at a time.

10 So, I think it's an interesting concept, 

11 but it's not practical.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Jennifer?

13 MEMBER TAYLOR: Can you tell me how 

14 scenarios would flow if you're looking at a 

15 rotational type of pasture management and dealing 

16 with Trace Minerals. Is that a different kind of 

17 scenario then what you said?

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes. I mean, the 

19 difference would be that like for instance a dairy 

20 animal who gets, you know, with the pasture rule 

21 they're required to get a minimum of 30 percent DMI 

22 off pasture for 120 days within the grazing season.
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1 But forage quality over 120 days can 

2 vary pretty dramatically depending on whether it's, 

3 you know, grass or alfalfa or, you know, wheat, or 

4 whatever. You know, there are such variations.

5 And typically when you're -- even dairy 

6 animals that are out on pasture are still moving 

7 across different pastures. So you might have one 

8 paddock that's deficient and the next that's not.

9 So, it's very difficult to say. There 

10 is some belief -- I happen to be one of those people 

11 that believe this -- that animals sort of 

12 instinctively know when to seek out minerals when 

13 they need them.

14 And there is something called free 

15 choice cafeteria style minerals where they're laid 

16 out and the animal can choose what they need when 

17 they need it. So, it's a little bit self-limiting.

18 And salt, which you typically put out 

19 all the time for livestock anyway. So, I think it's 

20 -- if you were feeding an animal in a barn all the 

21 time, you would fluctuate their diet and maintain 

22 nutrition.
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1 But, with pasture, it's much trickier. 

2 Much, much trickier. And of course we want to

3 encourage as much pasture access and as much forage 

4 from pastures as possible.

5 So, to me, I think it's just not 

6 practical. I appreciate your perspective. And I 

7 understand why you want to see that. But, I just 

8 don't think it's very practical.

9 Jennifer?

10 MEMBER TAYLOR: The farmers on -- that 

11 sit on the Board, are they using any kind of -- how 

12 are they using the Trace Minerals on their farms?

13 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Mac? Francis? Do 

14 you guys use minerals? I can speak that I do use 

15 minerals. Mac? Francis?

16 MEMBER STONE: In Central Kentucky 

17 we're blessed with some beautiful soils. They say 

18 that's the reason the horses are there. Because 

19 the sport of kings picked the best soils in the world 

20 to raise the horses.

21 But the only thing that the beef, the 

22 certified organic, grass fed, dry aged, choice beef 
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1 that we sell, the only thing it gets is Elmwood Stock 

2 Farms and salt are the lambs that we sell.

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Francis, do you want 

4 to speak to that?

5 MEMBER THICKE: Well, in Iowa we know we 

6 have the best soils in the world. But we've lost 

7 half of them since we started farming to erosion.

8 But what I do is, I have gone to using 

9 something from a company in Wisconsin that produces 

10 a grazing salt mineral mixture. They mix up --

11 their research -- a nutritionist has put this 

12 together.

13 And they mix up what they find to be 

14 generally the best mix. And then I have a free 

15 choice for the cows.

16 And in the summer, when they're on 

17 pasture, they probably don't need as much. Because 

18 the fresher forage and the vitamins and minerals are 

19 more readily available.

20 In the winter, when they're on store 

21 day, probably the need more.

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Nick?
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: Well, I'm sorry to 

2 disappoint you two gentlemen. But we have some of 

3 the best soils in the mid-Atlantic on our farm.

4 And we use a mineral mix that is from a 

5 particular company for a trail that is designed for 

6 our mid-Atlantic area. And we also change the mix 

7 between the forage season and the non-growing 

8 forage season.

9 In addition, we put out free choice cow 

10 pen, free choice sea salt or reaping salt. And we 

11 have done in the past extensive soil tests just as 

12 a baseline.

13 And the way that we look at it is 

14 whatever the cattle aren't using is going -- because 

15 we graze 100 percent, is going back out in the soil. 

16 And these are all trace elements.

17 And so, we're not overly concerned about 

18 it. In fact that's one of the ways that we've 

19 remineralize our soil.

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I would echo that 

21 sentiment. And it also occurred to me, I was 

22 sitting here thinking about the variations in 
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1 mineral requirements depending on the class of 

2 livestock.

3 So, if you've got ewes with lambs 

4 onboard, in my case, I want to make darn sure that 

5 they've got the minerals that they need while those 

6 fetuses are forming. And so you can imagine if 

7 you're on a dairy for instance where you've got 

8 multiple classes of animals that you're rotating 

9 through, it would be an absolute nightmare trying 

10 to document that.

11 Mac?

12 MEMBER STONE: Based on the gentleman 

13 across the table's testimony, I rest my case.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Are we 

15 prepared to vote on this? Okay. All those in 

16 favor of removing of Trace Minerals, signify by 

17 raising your hand.

18 (Pause.)

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Those 

20 opposed?

21 (Pause.)

22 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?
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1 (Pause.)

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Thirteen 

3 no. One abstention. The motion fails.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, should we take 

5 a vote on who has the best soil in the room now? I 

6 didn't vote. But of course everything's better in 

7 Texas.

8 Next up is Vitamins. Dr. Brines?

9 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This 

10 substance is included at Section 205.603 of the 

11 National List under (d) as Feed Additives (3) 

12 Vitamins used for enrichment or fortification when 

13 FDA approved. Thanks.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Calvin?

15 MEMBER WALKER: Vitamins is one of 

16 those essential nutrients category for livestock 

17 along with minerals. Without it, poor animal 

18 welfare.

19 There was no really -- there was no 

20 opposition to relisting this material. Aurora 

21 Dairy, IOIA, CCOF, mentioned that there was 50 plus 

22 producers using this material.
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1 Most of them listed 650 plus. 

2 Producers have a need for this essential material. 

3 So, it's just so foundational to the care and 

4 feeding of livestock.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any discussions on 

6 vitamins?

7 (No audible response.)

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Seeing none, all 

9 those in favor of removal of vitamins from the 

10 National List, please raise your hand.

11 (Pause.) 

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

13 (Pause.)

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

15 (Pause.)

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Fourteen 

17 no. The motion fails.

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Next up 

19 is EPA List for Inert -- oh, yes, that's right. 

20 Sorry. Sorry, never mind. Never mind.

21 Okay. Next up is Excipients. Dr. 

22 Brines?
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1 DR. BRINES: Thank you. And this is 

2 the final material included at Section 205.603 of 

3 the National List under (f) Excipients. Only for 

4 use in the manufacture of drugs used to treat 

5 organic livestock when the Excipient is identified 

6 by the FDA as generally recognized as safe, approved 

7 by the FDA as a food additive or included in the FDA 

8 review and approval of a new animal drug application 

9 or a new drug application. Thanks.

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you. Jean?

11 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Yes. 

12 Excipients. A very complicated group of 

13 materials. Probably about 8,000 substances will 

14 qualify as Excipients.

15 Although obviously not all of those are 

16 going to be found in all of the organic materials 

17 that we might look at. They are a critically 

18 important part of being in many of the healthcare 

19 products, such as teat dips.

20 However, there is obviously as we could 

21 tell from our discussions in Subcommittee when 

22 we're trying to look at these materials -- and 
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1 remember, we're looking at this as only one of 200. 

2 So, we didn't spend a huge amount of time on it 

3 because it is so complicated.

4 But we did observe. And we certainly 

5 received a lot of public comment that requests that 

6 we review Excipients again, after we've done this 

7 vote, back in Subcommittee.

8 In order to develop maybe an annotation 

9 or at least a list that might be part of an 

10 annotation that would help the people who are 

11 reviewing materials to have a much clearer idea 

12 where they go to, to find out exactly what 

13 Excipients are in there. Or what list did they 

14 occur on.

15 There are many different lists. And 

16 there is definitely a lack of clarity in terms of 

17 material review as to where we should all be going 

18 to look at these.

19 And I'll read one of the comments that 

20 came in only from a certifier. The present 

21 annotation is not clear. It allows for almost 

22 anything to be allowed as an Excipient.
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1 But materials reviewers have to do 

2 research using multiple databases. CF Code, 

3 Federal Regulations, Title 21, Grass database, the 

4 EAFUS database, et cetera, et cetera, to gather that 

5 information.

6 A clear annotation should -- we need a 

7 clear annotation that should state which specific 

8 Excipients, if any, would not be allowed.

9 Synthetic Excipients are in almost 

10 every livestock healthcare product. And 

11 information on them is very difficult to obtain from 

12 manufacturers in certain cases like teat dip.

13 I think that we clearly got that message 

14 from a wide range of public participants and public 

15 commenters. From certifiers, from veterinarians, 

16 and from those groups that do materials review.

17 So, certainly I would be requesting that 

18 this is put on the agenda -- work agenda for the 

19 Livestock Subcommittee. But, obviously we have 

20 to, I believe at this present time, vote to keep all 

21 of the general phrase the way it is right now for 

22 Excipients on the List.
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1 And we so voted in Subcommittee by 

2 unanimous vote to keep the category Excipients on

3 the National List. 

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Jean. 

5 I'll just state for the record that this is another 

6 one of those squirrelly listings where we have a lot 

7 of things lumped together that we end up having to 

8 deal with at some point later.

9 And it is a very difficult topic to try 

10 to address. Any discussion on Excipients?

11 (No audible response.)

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Seeing none, all 

13 those in favor of removal of Excipients from the 

14 National List, please raise your hand.

15 (Pause.)

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Those opposed?

17 (Pause.)

18 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

19 (Pause.)

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: One yes. Twelve no. 

21 One absent. The motion fails. Sorry, one 

22 abstention. My apology.
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: What did you say?

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: One yes. Twelve no. 

3 One abstain. And that was it.

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Next on the 

5 list is Strychnine.

6 DR. BRINES: Yes, this substance is 

7 included at Section 205.604 of the National List, 

8 non-synthetic substances prohibited for use in 

9 organic livestock production. Listed as (a) 

10 Strychnine. Thanks.

11 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Jean?

12 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Nobody wants to 

13 have Strychnine. And the recommendation in -- from 

14 public comment and from the Subcommittee is that it 

15 should continue to be listed as prohibited.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any discussion on 

17 Strychnine?

18 (No audible response.)

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Seeing none, all 

20 those in favor of removing the prohibition of 

21 Strychnine from the National List, please raise 

22 your hand.
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1 (Pause.)

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: All those in favor of 

3 -- yes. So glad we ended with this one.

4 (Pause.)

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Abstentions?

6 (Pause.)

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Madam --

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Fourteen 

9 --

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Excuse me. Go 

11 ahead.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zero yes. Fourteen 

13 no. The motion fails.

14 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Madam Chair, that 

15 concludes the Livestock's presentation of 2017 

16 Sunset materials.

17 (Applause.)

18 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Wow. That's 

19 great. Okay. So, it goes back to you now for the 

20 one last item on Livestock?

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes. We did 

22 actually have two discussion documents, the first 
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1 of which we've already talked about, which is the 

2 use of parasiticides.

3 The second one -- okay, is for a proposed 

4 annotation change for Lidocaine and Procaine use in 

5 livestock production. And I'll turn that over to 

6 Jean.

7 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: This is the --

8 we're not going to be voting on this today. This 

9 is just a discussion document.

10 It became obvious in our first round of 

11 looking at Lidocaine and Procaine in terms of 

12 staying on the -- for the Sunset review, that the 

13 withdrawal period is probably too long. And the 

14 way in which it was developed wasn't necessarily 

15 based on the two terms label use, you know, as the 

16 far out listing.

17 And so, we took a closer look at this 

18 based on public comment from the last meeting. And 

19 we sent out this discussion document in order to get 

20 further comment from the broader public.

21 So we did get broader comment back. And 

22 it was pretty consistent from a broad range of 
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1 stakeholders.

2 The questions that we posed was, should 

3 the annotation for Lidocaine be amended to reduce 

4 it from 90 days to eight days after administering 

5 for livestock intended for slaughter and seven days 

6 after administering to dairy animals? And 

7 similarly for the procaine.

8 We got, I guess as I said, broad 

9 response. Plenty of public comments. So we 

10 should be able to come back to the April meeting with 

11 a proposal that would allow us to vote on a reduction 

12 of the withholding period for these two materials 

13 based on good science and comments from, as I say, 

14 a wide range of people, from veterinarians to the 

15 farmers themselves.

16 So, that's really all I need to say on 

17 this at this time. Since this is not a document to 

18 vote on.

19 But I'd be happy to answer questions 

20 from the rest of the NOSB.

21 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Discussion?

22 (No audible response.)
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I'd just like to 

2 thank Jean for all her hard work. We've turned over 

3 some of the worst and trickiest materials to her to 

4 tease out for us.

5 And that, coupled with a huge workload 

6 and handling and some other Subcommittees, has been 

7 an impressive amount of work that she's done.

8 As we've stated, this is a discussion 

9 document. There will be no vote on this. And we 

10 will take these, both of these discussion documents 

11 back to Livestock for consideration of annotation 

12 change for a presentation likely at the spring 

13 meeting.

14 And Madam Chair, if there's no further 

15 discussion, this concludes the presentation of the 

16 Livestock Subcommittee.

17 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Thank you very 

18 much, Tracy. Our planned lunch break is not until 

19 12:30.

20 If Calvin, Dr. Walker, if you're ready, 

21 my suggestion would be that we would move into 

22 materials report, a Subcommittee report at this 
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1 point. Because we do have a lot of other materials 

2 that we -- and discussion in crops that we need to 

3 be able to look at this afternoon.

4 And that should be able to take us 

5 comfortably to a 12:30 lunch break. So, I would 

6 turn this over to Dr. Walker for the Materials 

7 Subcommittee Report.

8 MEMBER WALKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. 

9 I would like to thank the handling Subcommittee, Dr. 

10 Francis Thicke, Zea Sonnabend, Dr. Jennifer Taylor, 

11 who else am I leaving out? Colehour Bondera and I 

12 think -- and yours truly.

13 And from the program, it was Betsy 

14 Rakola. She was very instrumental in the research 

15 priorities and keeping that among the USDA agencies 

16 that Secretary Vilsack appointed.

17 And we know she replaced Mark Lipson. 

18 And so, she's been doing a good job. And Dr. Lisa 

19 Brines was always on the call along with Michelle 

20 Arsenault.

21 Hopefully that's enough to give 

22 Jennifer time to get to her research priorities 
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1 document. And you have five minutes.

2 MEMBER TAYLOR: So, thank you so much 

3 for this opportunity to talk with you just a moment 

4 about our great research priorities proposal. I 

5 hope you've all had an opportunity to review some 

6 of the recommendations that are within the research 

7 priorities document. 

8 As Calvin, our Chair has stated, our 

9 Committee consists of also Zea, Zea Sonnabend is 

10 Vice Chair. Harold Austin, Colehour Bondera, 

11 Francis Thicke and myself.

12 And again, we'd like to thank you for all 

13 of your comments that you've made to the Board as 

14 a whole. And also as you've taken time to address 

15 our research priorities that we've put before you.

16 As you know, the recommendation for a 

17 framework is that research priorities was first 

18 approved at the National Organic Standards Board in 

19 the May 2012 meeting. And part of that 

20 recommendation was that the research priorities 

21 from the previous years of the Board's 

22 deliberations would be presented at each fall 
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1 meeting such as during this time period.

2 The 2015 Board research priorities seek 

3 to solve critical, organic agricultural challenges 

4 and problems. The issues are often interrelated.

5 And should be viewed through an organic, 

6 whole-farm integrated approach. And determined 

7 through the criterion of the organic system plan.

8 So, if you've had a time to review the 

9 information, you know that we've gathered 

10 information from several of the Subcommittees. 

11 And the topic areas include prevention of GMO 

12 contamination, evaluation of effectiveness.

13 Those are research topics coming from 

14 the Material and GMO ad hoc Subcommittee. As well 

15 as a policy recommendation, examining the policy on 

16 research on a mechanism that will encourage 

17 conventional growers to avoid contamination.

18 From the Livestock Subcommittee, we had 

19 several recommendations. And much detail is 

20 actually included in the document on prevention and 

21 management of parasites using a systems approach, 

22 a systems overview.
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1 Also in herd and health -- lot health, 

2 and evaluation of synthetic and alternative sources 

3 for Methionine in the context again of a systems 

4 approach in organic poultry production.

5 The Handling Subcommittee submitted 

6 information or request as a topic, chlorine 

7 materials. Examining chlorine materials and their 

8 alternatives in specific situations and less toxic 

9 alternatives.

10 The Crops Subcommittee also took a 

11 systems approach. And submitted research 

12 addressing alternatives or a less toxic alternative 

13 to Copper for disease and algae control. And then 

14 the Evaluation and the Management of those 

15 strategies as well.

16 Then we also had a section within the 

17 document that looked at previous research topics 

18 and focus areas. Because as you know, this is new. 

19 Research takes years.

20 And it is something that we need to 

21 continually remind the research funding agencies 

22 and the community and our stakeholders that these 
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1 are important issues and critical to the success or 

2 organic farms and production systems.

3 We received comments from several of the 

4 organic community, including Beyond Pesticides, 

5 California Certified Organic Farmers, Cornucopia, 

6 Organic Produce Wholesaler Coalition, Straus 

7 Family Farm, OSGATA, the Organic Farming Research 

8 Foundation, the Center for Food Safety, the Organic 

9 Center.

10 And if you also would consider the 

11 hundreds and hundreds of comments that we actually 

12 received from the public. When the public says 

13 that they don't want synthetics or antibiotics in 

14 their food or in their growing system.

15 These are also research topics. And 

16 that we need to take and consider that way as an 

17 important topic area that we need to keep before the 

18 research community.

19 We appreciate all of your comments. 

20 And what we're going to do with your comments and 

21 they are very detailed and we appreciate that. And 

22 offer sometimes new ways of examining the issues 
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1 that we put forth in the document itself.

2 What we'll do is take those comments 

3 back into the Materials Subcommittee, and review 

4 them. And then integrate them into the research 

5 priority document for this year, where they're 

6 appropriate. And others may be forwarded onto the 

7 next year's document.

8 We, in our work with Ms. Betsy Rakola, 

9 who is the Organic Policy Advisor, she has said that 

10 she's forwarding this information. And it gets 

11 forwarded other ways as well.

12 As our talk that we had with Dr. Sonny 

13 Ramaswamy earlier this week. That's also another 

14 way to let him know and to become knowledgeable of 

15 our need to work in collaboration with his agency 

16 in providing organic research topics that will 

17 impact his agenda as he formally set agenda for his 

18 research requests.

19 But, Betsy has said that in her work that 

20 several -- a couple of organizations have now added 

21 the NOSB recommended research topics within their 

22 programs. And in the development of their proposal 
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1 requests.

2 Which is great. We want to move in that 

3 direction. And the interest in response that we 

4 received, which is available for your review as 

5 well, came from the Organic Center.

6 Whereas they wrote back and gave us 

7 great information of how they're actually taking 

8 our research priorities, the ones that we gave last 

9 year and the year before, and have integrated them 

10 into actual research projects that are ongoing. 

11 That they can have written bulletins and brochures 

12 about that have impacted growers.

13 And one of those research directions 

14 they say that they took from our 2012 and 2013 

15 research priorities list, is alternatives to 

16 antibiotics, Tetracycline and Streptomycin for 

17 fire blight.

18 So, they say that they've completed a 

19 fire blight project which was carried out in 

20 collaboration with researchers from the University 

21 of Washington. This Organic Center project 

22 provided critically needed information on how to 
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1 prevent fire blight from discriminating apple and 

2 pear orchards without the use of antibiotics.

3 The published report includes lessons 

4 learned from a systems approach to controlling fire 

5 blight without antibiotics, which has been 

6 successfully used by dozens of Pacific Northwest 

7 organic orchards.

8 And then it goes on to say how they're 

9 going to -- how they're sharing this type of 

10 information. And these are the types of impacts 

11 that we were hoping to have come out of providing 

12 this list to our research public and our 

13 stakeholders.

14 Another emphasis they said was, in 

15 taking from the 2014 research priorities list, 

16 examining plant disease management. And they 

17 report on that project that they have found organic 

18 solutions to control citrus greening disease in an 

19 ongoing project in collaboration with the 

20 University of Florida, the University of California 

21 Davis, List ARS, and citrus growers and other 

22 nonprofits which directly address the 2014 
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1 priorities for plant disease management.

2 Great. That is the direction we want to 

3 see this type of request for examining organic 

4 topics and organic critical needs.

5 Another topic they said that they had 

6 addressed is, or currently addressing, taken again 

7 from the 2014 research priority area is in soil 

8 building practices. They have an ongoing, they 

9 say, collaboration with the National Soil Project 

10 at Northeastern University.

11 And through this project they're 

12 examining different soil components that will 

13 enable agronomists, farmers and environmental 

14 scientists to correlate soil health and 

15 productivity with agricultural practices. To date 

16 they say that they've collected and analyzed almost 

17 600 organic soils nationwide.

18 And they say that this study will 

19 provide organic farmers who rely on soil quality 

20 with a resource to facilitate remediation, 

21 maintenance and conversational soil resources. 

22 Excellent.
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1 Another topic that they said that they 

2 addressed is -- that they have addressed is risk 

3 reduction in off target exposure to non-permitted 

4 materials. And they said that they're currently

5 undergoing this research project.

6 And that they'll have information 

7 available to the public soon. They're combining 

8 the research, of course, with the needed education 

9 and training for the farmer population.

10 And that is the kind of outreach, so to 

11 speak that we would need to see that kind of 

12 collaboration where research is taking place. And 

13 then turning around and sharing this information 

14 with the stakeholders and farming population in 

15 order to see change actually take place and impact 

16 in a positive way the organic farms and the organic 

17 program.

18 So I want to thank you so much for all 

19 of your comments. And I do want to encourage Miles, 

20 again, to please put in place our public docket 

21 system so that you will have an opportunity on an 

22 ongoing basis to forward information such as the 
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1 information that came from CCOF.

2 They actually provided over 50 

3 different research items. And had we received that 

4 in a timely fashion, we might have been able to 

5 incorporate those kinds of information within the 

6 information that you received.

7 So, we're hopeful that that might be 

8 something that would encourage you to help us get 

9 that docket in place faster. And so that we can 

10 react in a timely fashion and work together to 

11 address the critical needs within the organic 

12 program.

13 Thank you.

14 MEMBER WALKER: Thank you, Jennifer. 

15 Any discussion? Zea?

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: I just want to add 

17 two points concerning this. One is that all the 

18 wonderful suggestions that we got for this comment

19 period will be held and evaluated for our research 

20 priorities next year.

21 Because we can't make last minute 

22 changes on the document for this year. Maybe in the 
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1 future, if we have year round public docket, then 

2 we can have a longer period of open to collect 

3 suggestions. But, that's the way it is.

4 And then secondly, we spent a lot of time 

5 in our Subcommittee talking about how we can get 

6 better outreach for our research priorities. 

7 Because some of them don't really fit in say the NEPA 

8 grant priorities for field -- which are field 

9 research oriented. And some organic oriented, but 

10 some not. Not as much.

11 And some of ours, like GMO contamination 

12 issues probably don't rise to the top on their 

13 research agenda very often. And then of course the 

14 handling ones would have to be investigated by more 

15 food research or food safety research entities.

16 And so we do hope that all of you 

17 stakeholders who have links to the research 

18 community and academia and independent 

19 professional organizations or other ways, can help 

20 us circulate the need for research in these very key 

21 areas that wouldn't be covered within the 

22 government agricultural research arena. Or even 
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1 by something like the Organic Center for instance.

2 But I'm sure many of you do have links 

3 outside of these particular areas to both 

4 researchers and funders of such research. And 

5 could help us get broader outreach for that since 

6 we are limited to nagging Betsy about it, or our 

7 public postings for the meeting.

8 Thank you.

9 MEMBER WALKER: Anyone else? I would 

10 like to say ditto to what Zea and Jennifer had 

11 mentioned.

12 All of us need to go back to our local 

13 States, land grant universities, there's 109. 

14 They have extension dollars, research dollars, 

15 teaching dollars for agriculture.

16 And in my five years on this Board I've 

17 seen so much written and written in such an eloquent 

18 and precise fashion. Some of these scientists can 

19 use you all, as Zea mentioned, and some of the issues 

20 that you have as it relates to organic.

21 Any other? Oh, I'm sorry.

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Zea already kind of 
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1 touched on this. But noted during the Sunset --and 

2 I noted it in the Sunset review, but we received 

3 comments from all across the organic community in 

4 support of researching organic alternatives to 

5 conventional celery powder, freezed processed 

6 meats.

7 And that this research should be a 

8 priority. This comment was received after the 

9 Handling Subcommittee submitted our priorities to 

10 the Materials Subcommittee, and so it's not part of 

11 our priorities therein.

12 However, I asked the Materials 

13 Subcommittee and the Administrator to take efforts 

14 to make this a priority.

15 MEMBER WALKER: Are we ready to vote?

16 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Dr. Walker asked 

17 that I take the vote on this. There is a proposal 

18 that you have all reviewed and discussed and read 

19 public comment.

20 Is there any further discussion on this?

21 (No audible response.)

22 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Seeing no 
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1 further discussion, could you all raise your hand 

2 if you approve this proposed document as presented?

3 (Pause.)

4 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Anyone -- it 

5 looks like that was everybody. Does anyone object 

6 to accepting this document as presented? 

7 Discussion document?

8 (No audible response.)

9 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Seeing none, 14 

10 to zero in favor of accepting the research proposal 

11 document. Thank you. Back to you Calvin.

12 MEMBER WALKER: Our last document has 

13 been led by Dr. Francis Thicke, GMO prevention 

14 strategist.

15 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you, Calvin. We 

16 received quite a few comments on this. We -- a lot 

17 of support for moving forward with this document, 

18 prevention strategy guidance for excluded methods 

19 in crops and handling proposal.

20 And just a minute ago, I realized we 

21 didn't have livestock in there. And we do have some 

22 recommendations for livestock. So they could put 
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1 that in there, too.

2 We had some good comment suggestions and 

3 even some criticisms saying -- telling us that this 

4 isn't going to do the job. And we know that. We 

5 know this isn't going to take care of GMO 

6 contamination.

7 But, it will help us and it will also 

8 help us externally that we're showing that we're 

9 doing what we can. Everything we can. And that 

10 others have to now help us out.

11 OTA reported data from a recent USDA 

12 National Ag Statistics on the service survey, which 

13 found -- was on contamination of organic farmer --

14 organic crops by GMOs.

15 And between 2011 and 2014, 87 organic 

16 producers reported a total of $6.1 million in crop 

17 losses from GMOs, which was an average of $70,000 

18 per farm affected. So that's pretty significant.

19 So it was 87 during that three year 

20 period. But during 2006 to 2010, there were just 

21 nine farms contaminated. So, it's going up 

22 significantly. And it doesn't look good for the 
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1 for the future in that regard.

2 Some of the comments, specific ones, a 

3 lot of commenters say we need some help from 

4 outside. And we can't do this by ourselves.

5 And so -- well, I'll talk about that in 

6 a bit though. But another comment is that call for 

7 a seed purity standard. Remember the last time we 

8 brought this document forward, it had a section on 

9 seed purity.

10 And the Materials Subcommittee is going 

11 to keep on looking at that. And work on trying to 

12 bring forward a proposal on seed purity in the 

13 future.

14 Some specific comments are our 

15 certifiers say they need guidance on what GMO 

16 contamination levels should trigger some 

17 investigation. Another comment, Subcommittee 

18 should draft an additional recommendation to NOP 

19 for the creation of additional guidance in training 

20 of ACAs on conducting GMO sampling and testing.

21 A lot of comments saying this is a shared 

22 responsibility that we're already doing everything 
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1 we can. And we need others to do more.

2 For example, the National Organic 

3 Coalition, the USDA needs to require genetic 

4 engineering, GE users and patent holders to take 

5 deliberate action and mandatory preventative 

6 action instead of merely giving it lip service.

7 Beyond Pesticide said, the NOSB must 

8 call upon the Secretary of Agriculture to reverse 

9 this policy of allowing more and more genetically 

10 engineered crops. And to support legislation that 

11 places liability for damages on the patent holder.

12 OSGATA was very adamant that we need to 

13 have a strict testing threshold for organic seeds. 

14 So, some of the actions that we can do in the future 

15 is, perhaps we could send this document to NOSB --

16 I'm sorry, to Secretary Vilsack with a letter on the 

17 need for them to do more.

18 This -- showing him this is what we're 

19 doing. Now, what can you do to help us prevent this 

20 contamination? What can the makers and users of 

21 GMO technology do to help us?

22 Well, one specific comment that I would 
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1 like to actually include in the document, Organic 

2 Valley mentioned that aminofitic incompatibility. 

3 I was thinking we could just put a bullet in telling 

4 -- saying consider crop varieties with aminofitic 

5 incompatibility when available on your farm.

6 So, that's something we could possibly 

7 put in that wouldn't really change a lot. And I 

8 don't think it would hurt as part of holding on the 

9 proposal.

10 So, that's all I have for right now. 

11 Any comment?

12 MEMBER WALKER: Thank you, Francis. 

13 Discussion? Zea?

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes. In reading 

15 the public comment I did see a bit of what I perceive 

16 as distress from some certifiers in particular. 

17 Who seem to think that these were required things.

18 That seed had to be tested. Or that a 

19 certain buffer had to be kept. But we just want to 

20 make clear, and it does say -- if you read it 

21 carefully -- in several places, that this is 

22 guidance.
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1 That not every bullet point has to be 

2 addressed to every crop. This is best management 

3 practices. And you select which practices best fit 

4 your situation.

5 And it does say that the inclusion of 

6 information would be consistent with other guidance 

7 documents that the NOP has released to ACAs. So, 

8 we tried to set this up so that it is almost all 

9 things that people are already doing.

10 And it is not a lot more work for growers 

11 or certifiers or handlers. And it is, as Francis 

12 said, primarily to collect this all in one place so 

13 it can be used externally to show the other side, 

14 so to speak, all the steps that organic is taking.

15 To use it as leverage to get some 

16 concessions and get some acknowledgment from the 

17 GMO polluters.

18 MEMBER WALKER: Thank you, Zea. Dr. 

19 Richardson?

20 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Yeah, I mean, I 

21 like the document. You know, but I think the 

22 challenge for me, as I look around, just looking at 
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1 the GMO issue, is we're seeing all this 

2 proliferation of all these various labeling.

3 GMO-free type labels that are being 

4 asked for by companies for various products. And 

5 the assumption that you can just go out there and 

6 do the testing to find out, you know, run out to the 

7 farm, check out to see if the seed that they have, 

8 or whatever it is, is sort of within a -- it's not 

9 going to be GMO-free I assume. But it's going to 

10 at least sort of be within a tiny amount pretty much 

11 free of GMO.

12 But we all know that when you start 

13 getting out practically and you're looking at these 

14 organizations around the country right now doing 

15 all the testing of GMOs to see, you know, what 

16 percentage of the seed might have GMO in it, there's 

17 -- those aren't labs that are being -- they're not 

18 under the USDA. They're sort of freelance folks 

19 who are getting money for doing the testing. 

20 And there's plenty of anecdotal 

21 information, and I wonder if the Subcommittee 

22 discussed this, anecdotal information that, 
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1 really, depending on which lab you send it to, 

2 you're going to get a different response each time. 

3 And we haven't really looked -- we haven't really, 

4 as I think it says in the Appendix A that Calvin 

5 presented to us, there's no resources for us to do 

6 GMO testing in organic feed right at the moment, 

7 from our perspective.

8 And I think that it's a really murky area 

9 in terms of looking to see what level of 

10 contamination that there is when you do testing. 

11 And I'm quite concerned that the manner in which 

12 that is taking place right now around the country. 

13 Did you look into this? I'm assuming you did when 

14 you discussed the document on the Subcommittee. 

15 Francis?

16 MEMBER THICKE: Can I ask you clarify, 

17 Jean? Are you saying that the testing companies, 

18 there's not precision among them? Between them?

19 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Right.

20 MEMBER THICKE: How bad is that?

21 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Well, we didn't 

22 get a written comment on that. So it's anecdotal. 
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1 But it's not good.

2 MEMBER WALKER: Okay.

3 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Who's following him?

4 MEMBER WALKER: Nick?

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: I'd like to make some 

6 comments over a slightly longer historical period 

7 here. Maybe from a perspective that's a little bit 

8 different than just the regular NOSB Board member. 

9 I might harken to what Senator John Tester says from 

10 time to time. Things look different from the 

11 tractor seat.

12 Five years ago, when I started on the 

13 NOSB, we met, I believe, in Seattle. And we heard 

14 from the organic community a lot of concern about 

15 what the organic community was experiencing in 

16 terms of the interface with the biotechnology 

17 world.

18 And my colleague here, Jennifer, 

19 introduced a resolution with a letter to inform the 

20 Secretary of what we were hearing. Actually, 

21 that's our statutory requirement. It doesn't say 

22 we may advise the Secretary. It says we shall 
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1 advise the Secretary on all matters pertaining to 

2 the organic program.

3 That went around for about a year and a 

4 half. Or more, I don't remember. What we are 

5 looking at here today is as is -- by the way, I mean 

6 no disrespect to the hard work and the good work that 

7 the Subcommittee has put in on this document. And 

8 they have acknowledged what I'm about to further 

9 reinforce. That this document is indeed sort of an 

10 inventory of where we, in my mind, the deplorable 

11 position we find ourselves in today.

12 I guess what I would like to say is that 

13 I'm intending to abstain from this vote because I 

14 don't want to be associated with having spent five 

15 years working on an issue only to feel both saddened 

16 and angry.

17 I feel saddened because I haven't been 

18 able to participate in a process that has provided 

19 any relief, any fairness, or any justice to the 

20 organic producers and handlers out there in the 

21 community. And I feel a little angry because I feel 

22 victimized for having the audacity to farm while 
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1 being organic.

2 MEMBER WALKER: Zea?

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Well, I'm 

4 sorry to hear that you're going to abstain, Nick. 

5 I feel like even if it takes five or 10 or 20 years, 

6 we have to keep fighting the good fight or it will 

7 totally overrun us. And therefore, this is one 

8 step in the fight, in moving forward and pushing 

9 forward.

10 But I want to go back and reply to Jean. 

11 Jean, we did not talk about the vagaries of 

12 different testing labs. But we did decide that we 

13 couldn't -- we took the whole seed purity piece out 

14 of here because the Sunset '17, we just couldn't 

15 give it the attention it needs. And that would be 

16 one of the things we would want to look at if we 

17 consider a future step forward on seed purity.

18 So, we fully intend to do that before 

19 spring. It's on our work plan already. And I 

20 hadn't heard about that particular issue before. 

21 Nor do I recall any public comment on it.

22 But maybe if you could point us in a 
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1 direction, we could investigate that. Then we 

2 would be happy to for next spring.

3 MEMBER WALKER: Thank you, Zea. 

4 Anyone else? Nick?

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: Part of my concern, 

6 Zea, is, at best, this document is a statement of 

7 where we are. I'm afraid that it's a waystation 

8 onto things that will just get worse.

9 And that's my fear.

10 MEMBER WALKER: Thank you, Nick. 

11 Anyone else?

12 (No response.)

13 MEMBER WALKER: Are we ready to vote? 

14 Madam Chair?

15 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: The vote has been 

16 called. All of those of you in favor of the motion 

17 to accept the Prevention Strategy Guidance for 

18 Exclusion Methods in Crops and Handling, please 

19 raise your hand.

20 (Pause.)

21 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Anyone opposed?

22 (Pause.)
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1 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Any abstentions?

2 (Pause.)

3 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: I note one 

4 abstention. Thirteen in favor of accepting this 

5 document. Thank you, Dr. Walker.

6 MEMBER WALKER: Thank you, Madam Chair. 

7 That concludes the Materials Subcommittee's 

8 report.

9 CHAIRMAN RICHARDSON: Very good. It 

10 is 25 minutes past 12. Could we please be back here 

11 at 1:15? 1:15 as on the schedule. 1:15, because 

12 we do have -- if you remember, we've got four items 

13 to bring forward from Tuesday. Two from Handling, 

14 two from Crops to be considered. As well as all the 

15 other materials on the agenda.

16 So, see you at 1:15.

17 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

18 went off the record at 12:24 p.m. and resumed at 1:29 

19 p.m.)

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right. Let's 

21 get back on the record. We're exactly on time. 

22 It's 1:15 somewhere, probably in Nova Scotia or 
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1 somewhere.

2 Okay. We are moving into the last part 

3 of this NOSB meeting, and the next subcommittee to 

4 present its report is the Policy Development 

5 Subcommittee, which is chaired by Tracy Favre. 

6 Tracy?

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Good afternoon. 

8 Hope everybody had a good lunch. 

9 Policy Development Subcommittee, the 

10 major work task for us this past semester has been 

11 working on a comprehensive update of the Policy and 

12 Procedures Manual, or PPM. And we have made 

13 substantial changes in it, including kind of 

14 restructuring and reorganizing it based on what 

15 seemed to make a little more sense. 

16 Public comment was pretty significant 

17 on this, and what we heard pretty consistently is 

18 everybody was having a hard time tracking what the 

19 changes were or where things had been reordered 

20 because we didn't do a track changes copy.

21 We actually did discuss that in 

22 Subcommittee, and Colehour in particular was the 
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1 biggest advocate for that. Our biggest problem was 

2 there were so many structural changes in where 

3 things were that there were lots and lots of red 

4 lines and markups and lots of comments and lots of 

5 the little bubbles out to the side and windows out 

6 to the side and strikethroughs in 16 different 

7 colors. And it actually got to be pretty 

8 cumbersome for us to review it that way and elected 

9 to do a cleaner copy. 

10 Having said that, we did hear what you 

11 said and we have discussed it and we've got a plan 

12 to merge the original with the final. Don't look 

13 panicked, Emily. Tom's going to do it for us. 

14 And we will put that out. We aren't 

15 voting on it today. It was never our intention to 

16 vote on it today. This has always been a spring 

17 plan. So you'll have another opportunity for 

18 public comment for the spring proposals and we'll 

19 resubmit it for public comment at that time. 

20 Any comments or discussions from the 

21 Board or the Subcommittee? Is that a hand raised, 

22 Colehour?
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1 (No response.)

2 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay. Thank you. 

3 And I'll start out by saying thank you, Tracy, for 

4 acknowledging that I did repeatedly bring up the 

5 fact that I anticipated outsiders reviewing it 

6 being quite impeded by not having something that 

7 showed where the clear changes had been made. But 

8 I think to sort of reiterate that, it's also not just 

9 red line of this is crossed off and this is replacing 

10 it, but I think that the other issue, having served 

11 several years, two years, as the chair of this 

12 subcommittee, and being fairly familiar with what 

13 happened before -- since Barry Flamm had been chair 

14 before, and I served on it before that -- any changes 

15 that have been made in what I would say are either 

16 our bylaws or some people -- I'm not really a 

17 religious person, so I don't really reference this 

18 personally very well, but some people resonate with 

19 it better -- our bible.

20 Those were documents per change so that 

21 the public could actually not just see the things, 

22 but hear the thinking behind the changes and then 
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1 respond to those. Because when you're responding 

2 to this level of modification and subject area 

3 changes, not just reorganization but actually the 

4 meaning of many things has been significantly 

5 changed, you really are -- I'm not going to say it's 

6 impossible, because it's not impossible, but you're 

7 really impeded to actually give feedback. 

8 And one of the things I want to take a 

9 few moments to do -- and nobody has to respond, I 

10 did this on another item earlier today -- is just 

11 to ask the members of the NOSB who are not on this 

12 subcommittee, which is the majority, if people all 

13 did have a chance to go through. Because one of my 

14 comments, the reason I'm saying this and the reason 

15 I want to do this, because one of my comments was 

16 it won't just be hard for the broader public. It 

17 will be hard within the NOSB. The other members are 

18 also going to have a hard time reviewing these 

19 changes. 

20 And I'm just curious if non-Policy 

21 Development Subcommittee members were able to go 

22 through the entire document and see the changes and 
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1 comment, because -- and then I'll conclude, and 

2 people can respond if they want -- because, from my 

3 perspective, I'm going to yellow flag that we need 

4 to be pretty careful putting forth something for the 

5 next meeting -- I won't be here as a member of the 

6 next meeting -- but putting forth something for the 

7 next meeting and expecting the public comment to be 

8 not just sufficient, but for us to be able to 

9 incorporate into a final thing to vote on at the next 

10 meeting. 

11 I just want to tell you that it probably 

12 needs to be in the form of a discussion document 

13 that's more readable for the next meeting, and then 

14 intending to vote at the meeting after that. That 

15 would be my anticipation of the process, how it 

16 realistically and honestly would allow sufficient 

17 public input, which we're a public advisory 

18 committee. That's who we need to make sure we have 

19 the input from. 

20 So, like I said, I would personally 

21 really appreciate it if people who are not members 

22 of the Policy Development Subcommittee, positive or 
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1 negative, would comment on the ability of reviewing 

2 and substantially referencing the changes. 

3 I do have a personal comments about it, 

4 but I'll wait on them.

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Does anybody want -- 

6 Mac?

7 MEMBER STONE: Yeah, I was hanging on 

8 every word. No, I did like the format. Having 

9 been -- I guess while I was chair there was a lot 

10 of conversation around the changes and track 

11 changes and structural elements of it. So, in 

12 general, I like the structure, I like the layout, 

13 but I did not try to compare it with the previous 

14 one. Let that committee do that work. 

15 But I appreciate the years of work and 

16 it's a better document, Colehour, because of your 

17 work on it to make it the best it can be. But I like 

18 the structural component of it and trust that the 

19 technicalities are correct within.

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any other 

21 discussion?

22 (No response.)
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1 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Seeing no 

2 further discussion, this is a discussion document, 

3 not a proposal. Colehour?

4 MEMBER BONDERA: I'm sorry. Like I 

5 said, I did have a few other comments that I wanted 

6 to hold off on. I'm sorry. I was trying to give 

7 people plenty of time, but -- 

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Go ahead.

9 MEMBER BONDERA: Yeah, personally, I'm 

10 not prepared at this moment to comment 

11 specifically, but I did within the subcommittee and 

12 I'm happy to again within the subcommittee.

13 I personally have -- I don't disagree 

14 actually with what Mac said at all, frankly, that 

15 the structure and presentation is hypothetically -- 

16 well, not hypothetically -- is much more readable 

17 and better. It's the content that's my concern, 

18 not the presentation. And that's where, for me, 

19 the concern is. 

20 It sounds like somebody like Mac is 

21 saying -- Mac said I'm just going to trust the 

22 changes, and that's all good, but I was waiting, and 
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1 I let go some of the confusions or concerns I had 

2 because of this process that we had agreed to that 

3 this would be a discussion -- or I don't even know. 

4 Is it a discussion document? It's not titled a 

5 discussion document, so I'm actually not sure. 

6 Yes, it's more presented as a report than a 

7 discussion document, according to our processes. 

8 But so that this report would go out to 

9 the public and maybe we'd see if we got specific 

10 feedback on specific areas and then at the 

11 subcommittee level could discuss those to make the 

12 modifications. And let's be honest, we only met 

13 once a month. We didn't really have a lot of time 

14 to discuss very many of these things in very much 

15 detail. And part of the discussion was let's put 

16 this out to the public, get the feedback, and then 

17 bring these back for discussion. And so I didn't 

18 share a lot of my concerns and we didn't discuss a 

19 lot of things.

20 I would argue that in two areas where 

21 there's noticeable change -- and I think probably 

22 if I'm writing something it would end up being about 
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1 20 different areas -- but two that jump to my mind 

2 while we're sitting here that I want to just yellow 

3 flag. One is the whole process as presented with 

4 minority opinion. I feel like that's quite a 

5 significant change, and I really was anticipating 

6 and looking forward to public feedback on that in 

7 this document so that that could go back to the 

8 subcommittee and be more thoroughly discussed, and, 

9 from my perspective, hopefully changed from where 

10 it currently is at. And because I think, 

11 on that subject, I think it's critical for us to 

12 recognize our -- and I'm sorry I'm chewing an apple 

13 in the process. I want to get it out of my mouth, 

14 but I don't know what to do with it. I can't swallow 

15 it yet. So, no, it's okay. 

16 Because I really think that -- you know, 

17 I mean, I don't know. I have eight sisters. 

18 There's three boys. I have been a minority all my 

19 life in that way. It depends on how you look at 

20 things. But you got to recognize that minority 

21 opinion means different things in different ways. 

22 It never meant, when I was growing up ,that you're 
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1 irrelevant because you're a male. What it meant 

2 was let's figure out how to listen to everybody, to 

3 work with everybody and to recognize that even one 

4 person's opinion is as valid as everybody else's and 

5 not dismiss it because it was a supermajority or 

6 whatever. 

7 Even if a vote is supermajority wins, 

8 you still want to get the minority's opinions, 

9 positions and rationale. And unlike what is put 

10 forth, the truth is that you can guess, but at 

11 several of our votes on several materials today and 

12 yesterday votes switched quite dramatically. 

13 Actually some of them switched completely. You 

14 don't really know where the votes are going to be 

15 until the end of the day, and so you can't decide 

16 in advance of a vote what it's going to be or that 

17 there will be a minority opinion. Maybe that ends 

18 up being everybody. And so there's a lot of 

19 difficulty with preparing a minority opinion before 

20 a vote, because who's the minority? And so I'm sure 

21 that, yeah, there might be some response to this, 

22 but that's my experience and opinion. 
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1 And I think, like I started out by 

2 saying, the National Organic Standards Board is 

3 made up -- its whole purpose is its compromised of 

4 opinions from different backgrounds, different 

5 perspectives. That's why we're together. We're 

6 talking about the same topics, but we need to make 

7 sure that we're listening to everybody and giving 

8 everybody equal floor space and equal recognition. 

9 And I think that we need to make sure that our 

10 minority opinion part of these bylaws, of this 

11 bible, do not circumvent that, because then, you 

12 know, why? Why are we all here and why are we 

13 spending our time? 

14 And I think that I could go into more 

15 detail on that. I won't, but I think that the other 

16 area that jumps out to me -- and I'm not going to 

17 comment on it because I'm not at all prepared -- is 

18 the section on NOP-NOSB collaboration, because I 

19 think that is where the liaison-ness or the liaison 

20 relationship between the two entities -- you know, 

21 we're a public advisory committee. We're advising 

22 the Secretary of Agriculture, like Nick referred 
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1 to. We're doing it via the NOP. We need to make 

2 sure that it's extremely clear how to do that, how 

3 it's achieved, how we get there, and that 

4 everything's in place to accomplish it, because 

5 that is our responsibility. 

6 And I just really strongly feel that 

7 that needs to be not just open for interpretation 

8 or left open, but it needs to be made clear enough 

9 that we can all follow the same -- anybody from the 

10 outside and anybody -- you know, we're going to have 

11 six new people here next year -- they can all follow 

12 the same process, that it's not made up by whoever 

13 is in the seat at the moment of responsible 

14 position. And I think that collaboration is a nice 

15 word, but it's a pretty open word. 

16 And so I really strongly feel that those 

17 areas of what's been put forth need more work. And 

18 like I said, my list is actually much longer, but 

19 I'm not prepared to present all of those items at 

20 this time and there's not enough time scheduled. 

21 But I wanted to point out that even at the committee 

22 level we could have quite a long discussion on this. 
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1 So, thank you.

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Colehour. 

3 Jean?

4 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Appreciate your 

5 comments, Colehour. And you are still on that 

6 subcommittee, and so hopefully many of these issues 

7 you will now be able to bring back that you haven't 

8 been able to talk about today in the interest of 

9 time.

10 I think that we would have got a lot more 

11 comments from the public if it hadn't been a sunset 

12 year and people were concentrating and focusing 

13 more on all the individual materials, and also the 

14 fact that it was not easy to compare one document 

15 with the other. We recognize that, but honestly 

16 our heads were spinning trying to see the comparison 

17 between the two documents, mostly because of the 

18 change in the structure of it.

19 But Tom here next to me is kind of 

20 brilliant and he can make these magically overlap 

21 in such a way that when we send this out in April 

22 with all the stuff from Colehour and everybody else 
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1 on the subcommittee, we will have a document for you 

2 that hopefully -- well, I hope it won't make your 

3 heads spin, but it will allow for ease in comparing 

4 the changes that we are proposing to do, which would 

5 enable you to provide us with adequate public 

6 comments so that we can finalize a really good 

7 document that reflects every section of the 

8 stakeholders that we can do within the FACA system 

9 that we work within. 

10 So I think that this is a great step 

11 forward and we are, of course, as we've all said, 

12 really building on the legacy of Colehour when he 

13 was chair of it for those two years and he did a lot 

14 of that detailed lining-out and all that stuff that 

15 made the document so interestingly difficult to 

16 read anyway. But we'll do better and I look forward 

17 to seeing what comes out of our subcommittee next 

18 April. Thanks.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Any other comments? 

20 Harold?

21 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yeah, Colehour, you 

22 brought up in front of the full Board meeting today 
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1 that you had roughly 20 comments that you had an 

2 issue with on some of this, or points of concern. 

3 Would it be possible, since we're in full session 

4 and we don't have time to deal with this, could you 

5 in writing send that to the entire Board so that we 

6 could see exactly what your concerns are?

7 MEMBER BONDERA: Yeah, that's totally 

8 fine. I cannot and will not promise when, but, yes, 

9 before my term is over I will do so. And ideally 

10 before the month is over. But, again, I won't 

11 promise. But, yes.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Alright. We've got 

13 it on the public record.

14 (Laughter.)

15 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Now, you're in 

16 trouble.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thanks, Colehour. 

18 That's great. Good suggestion, Harold.

19 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, excellent. 

20 Thank you.

21 I would like to thank everybody for 

22 their comments. Obviously this is a legacy 
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1 document with a long history. And while we're 

2 trying to do some structural changes, certainly 

3 it's not our intent to gut the intent of the PPM. 

4 So, all comments have been appreciated. 

5 Any other comments about the report? 

6 Jennifer?

7 MEMBER TAYLOR: I agree with the 

8 comments that Colehour had in regard to minority 

9 opinion. I think it's an important piece of the 

10 document that doesn't need to be minimized or 

11 marginalized or insulted away, but it's an 

12 important piece of the whole concept of any 

13 document. And I would be happy also to share 

14 information on how to strengthen that section of the 

15 manual so that it could be reflective of the 

16 importance of that role. 

17 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay. Thank you. 

18 I actually want to clarify my perspective on the 

19 minority opinion. Whether or not we handled it and 

20 fleshed it out in a way that all the Policy Committee 

21 agreed with, it was actually expanded upon, not 

22 marginalized, in the revised PPM, because the 
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1 original PPM just said minority opinions could be 

2 included with no detail. 

3 So I think maybe I'll offer a mild 

4 objection to the characterization of that and only 

5 say that it's clear based on your two comments that 

6 we need to flesh that out in a way that you guys are 

7 more comfortable with. But we did offer more 

8 detail rather than less in the way it had been 

9 previously, in my opinion. Thank you.

10 Anything else?

11 (No audible response.)

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Okay, Madam Chair, 

13 this concludes the presentation from the Policy 

14 Development Subcommittee.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. The 

16 next subcommittee to report back to the whole Board 

17 is the Compliance, Accreditation and Certification 

18 Subcommittee. And I turn it over to Carmela Beck, 

19 chairperson.

20 MEMBER BECK: So, the Compliance, 

21 Accreditation and Certification Subcommittee has 

22 continued to work on the one topic of assessment of 
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1 soil conservation practices document over the past 

2 two months, and as lead on the topic I'll ask that 

3 Lisa provide the verbal update.

4 MEMBER DE LIMA: So, at the beginning of 

5 the semester it was our intent to bring a finished 

6 discussion document to this meeting, but as we got 

7 further and further into our research and the 

8 details of what our potential recommendations might 

9 be, we realized we needed a lot more time to dig in 

10 to feel confident that we were bringing to the Board 

11 recommendations that were realistic and 

12 implementable by the public. So, given the time 

13 crunch due to the sunset materials, we decided we 

14 needed to take another semester to take a closer 

15 look at those recommendations, and we'll be 

16 bringing something to the spring meeting.

17 MS. BECK: Are there any questions or 

18 discussion?

19 (No audible response.)

20 MS. BECK: Okay. Thank you.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you very much. 

22 Look forward to seeing how we can move forward on 
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1 this.

2 The next material that we have to work 

3 with is we're now going to -- now that we're 

4 post-sunset '17, hence our lovely t-shirts, we will 

5 now move on to our post-sunset '17 activities in two 

6 sets of subcommittees. The Handling Subcommittee 

7 and Crops Subcommittee have some proposals, some 

8 for reclassification and others for annotation, and 

9 some also on petitioned material. 

10 And so at this point I'll turn over to 

11 the chair of the Handling Subcommittee to start that 

12 process. Tom?

13 MEMBER BONDERA: Point of order, Madam 

14 Chair?

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, Colehour, 

16 point of order.

17 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. In what was put 

18 forth by the NOP in the Federal Register, Volume 78, 

19 No. 179 on Monday, September 16th, 2013, page 56814, 

20 it states, "If the subcommittee identifies new 

21 information" -- I'm sorry. It states, quote, "If 

22 the subcommittee identifies new information that it 
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1 believes merits reconsideration of a use 

2 restriction for a substance; for example, to expand 

3 its use, further restrict its use, or correct its 

4 restrictive annotation, then a member of the 

5 subcommittee or a member of the public can file a 

6 petition to change the use of a substance through 

7 the National List process," unquote.

8 And I just want to be 100 percent sure 

9 that petitions that I'm unaware of have been filed, 

10 or somehow there's something being followed through 

11 some rule system that I'm unfamiliar with that's 

12 overriding the Federal Register public 

13 notification. If you could please respond.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I don't have any -- 

15 I don't -- you're suggesting we should have had a 

16 written petition to reclassify alginic acid, for 

17 example? I'm just really not sure what you're 

18 trying to do here.

19 MEMBER BONDERA: What I'm trying to do 

20 is ask if we're following what's put forth in the 

21 Federal Register, as a public advisory committee, 

22 what we are required to do legally, or if there's 
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1 some other process.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: In connection with 

3 what material?

4 MEMBER BONDERA: Well, I didn't -- I 

5 don't -- let me look at how you have these listed 

6 because I'm not going to do it material by material. 

7 But any annotation change, for example. So if the 

8 first one is going to be an annotation change, 

9 then -- and reclassification I think, fits in there 

10 as well, frankly.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. Well, let me 

12 ask -- 

13 MEMBER BONDERA: So, petitions to 

14 reclassify or petitions for changing an annotation 

15 come from the public or within the NOSB, is what this 

16 states.

17 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Okay. I'm pretty 

18 sure we've done it exactly correctly, but can I ask 

19 for then some clarification from Lisa, maybe. Dr. 

20 Brines, you want to try to help me with this? Our 

21 goal here, as you understand, is to take the two 

22 proposals for reclassification, one of alginic 
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1 acid, one of carnauba, and discuss those two first. 

2 We moved them from, whenever it was, Tuesday to 

3 today so that they'd be post-sunset. 

4 And similarly, for crops there are two 

5 proposals: an annotation change for micronutrients 

6 and an annotation change for a list for inerts. I'm 

7 assuming that those are the four materials that 

8 you're looking at for some clarification as to 

9 whether we can do what we're trying to do here. 

10 So, Lisa, could you help me out with 

11 this, please?

12 DR. BRINES: Sure, just to clarify. 

13 So, Colehour is correct that there were not 

14 petitions submitted for reclassification of 

15 alginic acid or for the reclassification of 

16 carnauba wax. However, in the course of review, 

17 the Board did identify information that they wanted 

18 to add these two particular materials to the work 

19 agenda for the subcommittee and bring that 

20 information forward to the Board for consideration 

21 separate from the sunset process. 

22 There is the option, for example, if an 
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1 individual Board member had identified information 

2 that they thought warranted reconsideration, they 

3 could on their own submit a petition, and that would 

4 be fully compliant with the updated sunset review 

5 process.

6 In this case, the committee, the 

7 subcommittee, had determined that they wanted to 

8 bring that agenda item forward, and it was formally 

9 added to the work agenda for the committee. 

10 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So, just to clarify 

11 on your point of order, we did go through the normal 

12 procedure of it going to be added to the work agenda 

13 by going from the subcommittee to the Executive 

14 Committee and with approval to put them on the work 

15 agenda in the form that you see now before you. And 

16 we did have a discussion on the Executive 

17 Subcommittee in regards to doing proposals or 

18 petitions. In fact, we had several conversations 

19 on this. And since you typically sit in on the 

20 Executive, I'm sure you recall those. So I don't 

21 see any issue with what we're doing here today. 

22 So I would like to move, then, to Tom to 
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1 start the process of dealing with the proposal for 

2 reclassification of alginic acid and the other 

3 materials on handling.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The first item is the 

5 proposal for the reclassification of alginic acid, 

6 and I will hand it over to Tracy to discuss this 

7 item.

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes, thank you. In 

9 the course of doing our research and due diligence 

10 on alginic acid and looking at the draft 

11 classification of materials document that has come 

12 from the Program, I went back to the Handling 

13 Subcommittee with the suggestion that despite the 

14 fact alginic acid seems to be a naturally-occurring 

15 acid, in its practical form as it's used in organic 

16 production, it does undergo a chemical change in 

17 order to get there. And more typically, especially 

18 with the new classification document, would be 

19 considered a synthetic.

20 And so therefore, after discussion in

21 the subcommittee, we elected to put forward a 

22 proposal for reclassification of alginic acid from 
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1 205.605(a) to 205.605(b).

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

3 further discussion of this item?

4 (No audible response.)

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Did we get any public 

6 comment on this item?

7 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yeah, I'm sorry. We 

8 did receive some public comment in regards to this 

9 material, and generally all comment was in favor and 

10 in agreement with our assessment for its 

11 classification to 205.605(b).

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

13 further discussion on this item?

14 (No audible response.)

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Seeing none, we'll 

16 proceed to a vote. Michelle, can you switch back 

17 to the proposal and scroll to the end? 

18 Alright. So, the motion comes from the 

19 subcommittee, the motion to reclassify alginic acid 

20 from 205.605(a) to 205.605(b) of the National List. 

21 The motion was made by Tracy and seconded by Lisa, 

22 and it was unanimously approved. One member was 
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1 absent. 

2 We'll proceed to a vote at this time. 

3 All those in favor of this motion to reclassify, 

4 raise your hand.

5 (Pause.)

6 MEMBER CHAPMAN: All those opposed?

7 (Pause.)

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Abstentions?

9 (Pause.)

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was 13 yes, 

11 0 no, 1 abstention. The motion passes.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. The next 

13 proposal is the reclassification of carnauba wax. 

14 Zea?

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. Well, 

16 as we already discussed in the sunset of carnauba 

17 wax, this was originally reviewed by the Crops 

18 Subcommittee -- well, it was Committee at the time 

19 -- to be added to the National List, and a vote was 

20 never taken on whether this was agricultural or 

21 non-agricultural. And this motion is the 

22 intention to correct that past not doing -- I won't 
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1 call it wrongdoing, because it was the way of the 

2 time -- but correct the past procedure by voting 

3 that it's agricultural and moving it to 606.

4 It should be noted that we did indicate 

5 our intent to do this in the first posting and 

6 specifically asked public stakeholders if this 

7 would affect them in any way and if they supported 

8 that. We heard back only support for the change and 

9 no resistance to the change. And for this posting 

10 I didn't see any specific input on exactly just this 

11 change, but the same supporters of renewing 

12 carnauba on the list supported changing the 

13 section. 

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any 

15 further discussion on this item?

16 (No audible response.)

17 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Seeing now, we'll 

18 proceed to a vote. I will read the motion. It's 

19 a motion to reclassify -- or classify. There's no 

20 "re-" because it was never classified in the first 

21 place. A motion to classify carnauba wax as 

22 agricultural and move its listing to 205.606. The 
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1 motion was by Zea. It was seconded by Tracy. It 

2 came unanimous from subcommittee with one member 

3 absent.

4 All those in favor of the motion to 

5 classify carnauba wax as agricultural, raise your 

6 hand now.

7 (Pause.)

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: All those opposed?

9 (Pause.)

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: All those abstaining? 

11 (Pause.)

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was 12 yes, 

13 1 no, 1 abstention. The motion passes.

14 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next item on the 

15 agenda is the petition to proposal of sodium lactate 

16 and potassium lactate. Harold?

17 DR. BRINES: Excuse me, Chair?

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yes?

19 DR. BRINES: Would you like me to do the 

20 petition introduction for this one?

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Sure. Dr. Brines.

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Alright. The 
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1 petition for sodium lactate and potassium lactate 

2 was submitted by Applegate Farms on January 5th, 

3 2004. The petition requests the addition of these 

4 materials to Section 205.605 of the National List. 

5 The reason for the delay and why this petition is 

6 coming before the subcommittee now is in response 

7 to a memo from the National Organic Program to the 

8 National Organic Standards Board dated January 

9 25th, 2014. In support of its review, the 

10 subcommittee did request the development of a third 

11 party technical evaluation report. And that 

12 report, the NOP memo to the Board, and the original 

13 petition were all posted for the public on the NOP 

14 website. Thank you.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you, Dr. Brines. 

16 Harold?

17 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. On January 22nd 

18 the NOP notified the petitioner that the petition 

19 would not be necessary since the materials -- 

20 (Technical difficulties.)

21 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Try again, Harold. 

22 MEMBER AUSTIN: I'm getting feedback 
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1 from it. 

2 (Pause.)

3 MEMBER AUSTIN: Still getting feedback 

4 on that. 

5 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yeah, I will give the 

6 introduction on Harold's behalf. So, the public 

7 comments on this material. One was from a material 

8 review organization that supports the listings but 

9 requested that we look at sodium acetate and the 

10 ancillary substance which the TR states may 

11 sometimes be used. One certifier commented that 

12 they had five operations they work with currently 

13 using these products. Crops supported its 

14 listing. CCOF supported its listing. One 

15 manufacturer supports, three processors all 

16 supported it. One trade association survey said 

17 the results were inconclusive.

18 On the October 20th webinar for oral 

19 testimony, there was one commenter who also 

20 provided written comments asking that it be 

21 continued for use since it has already been allowed 

22 since the 2004 NOP decision. They say that for the 
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1 past five years sodium lactate has been an integral 

2 part of their organic herb pastes. They have tried 

3 other materials, but so far sodium lactate provides 

4 the functional part of what they need and asked for 

5 it to be allowed not only for antimicrobial control, 

6 but also as a pH regulator.

7 Several commenters who are in favor of 

8 the listing of these two materials stated that based 

9 on the 2004 decision these materials are already 

10 currently allowed for use in organic processing. 

11 This would simply help to remove confusion and make 

12 it easier for certifiers and handlers alike. It 

13 would keep it consistent with other acid salts that 

14 are currently allowed on their own listings.

15 One certifier stated that sodium 

16 lactate is currently being used by five other 

17 clients in accordance with the 2004 memo for its 

18 used in processed meats, sausages, meatballs and in 

19 organic meat flavors like chicken flavor and beef 

20 flavor. No clients are using potassium lactate.

21 An organic farmer-owned co-op stated 

22 that they currently do not use these products and 
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1 they may want them in the future as an ingredient 

2 to help control pathogens and other spoilage 

3 organisms, thus they support the added materials to 

4 the list. 

5 There were five comments against adding 

6 these materials to the list from interest groups and 

7 a retailer. And the theme for these against 

8 listings for the materials say that petitioned use 

9 was as a preservative and other uses not petitioned, 

10 including flavor and color enhancement, that these 

11 intended purposes are not allowed in organic 

12 processing. One commenter stated that the product 

13 label that they researched did not show these 

14 materials, therefore they didn't think they were 

15 essential since some make their goods without them. 

16 Harold, as the lead, had discussed 

17 bringing this back to the subcommittee to 

18 incorporate these comments and to bring a further 

19 proposal forward. There were also some requests 

20 for an annotation change to limit its use in either 

21 meat products or as an antimicrobial control. 

22 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yeah, it would be my 
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1 recommendation to refer this back to the 

2 subcommittee based off of the public comment that 

3 we've received. I think we don't know yet about the 

4 total usage of the material. The ancillaries are 

5 being brought into concern. Plus, it looks like 

6 these materials are being used in a manner that was 

7 different from what the original petition was. So, 

8 I think in all fairness to the stakeholders and the 

9 material, we should bring it back for further review 

10 and then bring it back for a full Board vote and 

11 review in the spring.

12 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Yeah. And I just want 

13 to add in that the subcommittee was generally 

14 favorable of these petitioned items, but at the 

15 time, because of the gap in time from the 2004 

16 petition, we were unsure of its usage in the 

17 industry and wanted to make sure it was needed. And 

18 I do think the comments from the public showed that, 

19 at least from my perspective.

20 Before we make any motions, though, 

21 we'll open it for discussion. I think Francis had 

22 a point.
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1 MEMBER THICKE: Something you might 

2 want to consider, the third paragraph under 

3 "History," the last sentence says, "Sodium and 

4 potassium lactate can replace nitrates, nitrites in 

5 meat products that are generally recognized as 

6 safe." And you may remember when we had the expert 

7 here I asked that and she point-blank said, no, it 

8 could not replace nitrates. So, you might consider 

9 that.

10 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. 

11 Yes, so there is a motion on the floor, 

12 so we will need a different motion to send it back 

13 to the committee. Motion to table to the 

14 committee, to the subcommittee? Is that correct?

15 MEMBER AUSTIN: I think we can just 

16 refer it back since we haven't brought it forward 

17 for a vote yet. 

18 MEMBER CHAPMAN: So if there's no 

19 objections, we'll just move to refer this back to 

20 subcommittee. Is there any objections at this 

21 time?

22 (No audible response.)
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1 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Seeing none, it's 

2 referred back to subcommittee.

3 Alright. Next is the proposal for 

4 flavors petitions. Dr. Brines?

5 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The petition 

6 to amend the annotation for flavors was submitted 

7 by the Organic Trade Association on January 27th, 

8 2015. The petition requests an amendment to the 

9 current listing for flavors on Section 205.605(a) 

10 of the National List. The current annotation reads 

11 as follows: "Flavors. Non-synthetic sources 

12 only and must not be produced using synthetic 

13 solvents in carrier systems or any artificial 

14 preservative." Thanks.

15 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. I'm not 

16 going to go into the history of the flavors on the 

17 National List here, but it is outlined in the 

18 proposal. I should note that natural flavors are 

19 listed under the non-synthetic allowance 

20 205.605(a) list, however, today, natural flavors 

21 that meet the FDA definition and meet the annotation 

22 are allowed in organic production, and those 
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1 include natural flavors that are both agricultural 

2 and non-agricultural. 

3 The 2010 sunset review of flavors 

4 recommended that future NOSBs do not renew the 

5 category as a whole. As this proposal is focusing 

6 on revising the annotation, I am not including a 

7 review of the OFPA criteria here.

8 Comments received were from a wide 

9 spectrum and were generally in support of the 

10 annotation. A few comments received noted that it 

11 took 20 years to further restrict flavors via this 

12 proposal and therefore an expiration date on the 

13 listing should be proposed to further push change 

14 more rapidly. 

15 Another commenter noted making flavor 

16 companies do a commercial availability search on 

17 conventional flavor constituents of an organic 

18 natural flavor may not be sound and sensible. 

19 However, I want to note that that was intended by 

20 the subcommittee and we do think it is sound and 

21 sensible. Commercial availability at the flavor 

22 sub-component level will most likely be easier than 
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1 at the consumer product level. For example, we 

2 believe it is easier for a certifier to determine 

3 if organic strawberries are available than to make 

4 an organic strawberry flavor determination when 

5 it's being formulated into a finished product.

6 Other commenters noted the need for USDA 

7 action on the previous NOSB recommendations on 

8 commercial availability.

9 The goal of this proposal is to further 

10 the usage of organic flavors while not negatively 

11 disrupting business. The subcommittee's opinion 

12 is that this is just the first step and that future 

13 NOSBs should continue the push on industry in the 

14 development and adoption of organic flavors along 

15 the lines originally envisioned in 1995. 

16 The proposed annotation is to revise the 

17 flavors annotation to read, "Non-synthetic flavors 

18 may be used when organic flavors are not 

19 commercially available. All flavors must be 

20 derived from organic and non-synthetic sources only 

21 and must not be produced using synthetic solvents 

22 and carrier systems or any artificial 
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1 preservative."

2 The motion was made by myself and 

3 seconded by Jean and comes unanimously recommended 

4 by the subcommittee. 

5 I'll open up for discussion at this 

6 time.

7 (No audible response.)

8 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Seeing none, we'll 

9 move to a vote on the petition. Again, it's a 

10 motion to revise the flavor annotation to read, 

11 "Non-synthetic flavors may be used when organic 

12 flavors are not commercially available. All 

13 flavors must be derived from organic and 

14 non-synthetic sources only and must not be produced 

15 using synthetic solvents and carrier systems or any 

16 artificial preservative."

17 All those in favor of this motion, raise

18 your hand.

19 (Pause.)

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: All those opposed?

21 (Pause.)

22 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Abstentions?
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1 (Pause.)

2 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was 14 yes, 

3 zero no. The motion passes.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: The next proposal is 

5 for ancillary substances, microorganisms including 

6 dairy cultures. Dr. Brines, do you have a reading 

7 here Okay. Zea?

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. My 

9 comments right now are addressed to all three 

10 ancillary substance proposals, because most of the 

11 public comments were addressed towards all three of 

12 them, rather than one or the other.

13 Let's see. We've been working on doing 

14 this for some time. The main concerns about what 

15 we have done so far come either from the certifiers 

16 who feel that it's too cumbersome and hard for them 

17 to enforce and involves paperwork that goes beyond 

18 sound and sensible. And public interest groups and 

19 some individuals who feel that either there needs 

20 to be more restrictions on them or they should be 

21 put on the National List one by one, which is 

22 contrary to what our 2013 recommendation said.
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1 So, let me just say at the outset we're 

2 not putting them on the National List one by one. 

3 You can keep complaining and we are happy to send 

4 this back to committee indefinitely, but that is 

5 never going to happen unless one of you in the 

6 audience in the next 2 hours and 45 minutes applies 

7 for the open seat. And if you get it, you can work 

8 on it. 

9 Nonetheless, we are trying to be 

10 responsive to the public comments that we received 

11 besides that one. And some of you seem to think 

12 that formaldehyde would be allowed as an ancillary 

13 substance when we don't even think it's allowed in 

14 food, but it is pretty clear we need to at least put 

15 some reference in there to what commonly would not 

16 be allowed. So, some reference lists like 

17 cancer-causing agents and other food additives of 

18 concern, so that if we're going to put we can allow 

19 this whole group of things, that we make it clear 

20 that the really bad actors would not be allowed.

21 And then we heard from some certifiers 

22 that our categorization this way would cause to be 
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1 allowed some specific substances that they 

2 currently don't allow. And so rather than making 

3 this tighter, it would actually make it looser, and 

4 that's not our intention of what to do.

5 On the other hand, people don't think 

6 it's sound and sensible to not have a mechanism to 

7 add to these ancillary substances, even though now 

8 on microorganisms we've had three postings asking 

9 for additional ones and no one has submitted 

10 additional ones the last two postings. So we just 

11 don't necessarily think there are that many of them 

12 out there. And for pectin, all of our research 

13 didn't lead us to think there were that many more 

14 out there.

15 And we were asked by certifiers to 

16 define functional classes or come up with a place 

17 where the FDA defines functional classes. And 

18 while the FDA lists functional classes, we've been 

19 operating this out of a list Emily provided to us 

20 of which ones they recognize, but we don't think 

21 there are definitions in that list. And so we're 

22 going to suggest -- I don't -- is it tabling or 
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1 withdrawing? Sending back to subcommittee? 

2 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Refer back to 

3 subcommittee.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Refer back to 

5 subcommittee on all three of these so we can put the 

6 restrictive language that people want next in and 

7 try some more. However, I'm happy to keep tabling 

8 these as long as you'd like, but when my term is up, 

9 as I said, I hope one of our new appointees 

10 volunteers if they really want to delve into this 

11 detail. I think there are a lot more important 

12 things we could be doing with our time.

13 So, with that said, I recommend 

14 referring the three ancillary substance proposals 

15 back to subcommittee.

16 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Thank you. Before we 

17 proceed with that referral is there any further 

18 discussion on this item?

19 (No audible response.)

20 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Seeing none, we'll 

21 refer back to subcommittee. Unless there's an 

22 objection, the proposal for ancillary substances 
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1 for microorganisms including dairy cultures, the 

2 proposal for ancillary substances for pectin, and 

3 the proposal for ancillary substances for yeast.

4 Seeing no objection, those are referred 

5 back to the subcommittee.

6 Madam Chair, I hand the chairship back 

7 over. This concludes the Handling Subcommittee's 

8 portion of the agenda.

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. The 

10 next item on our agenda is to move to the Crops 

11 Subcommittee to address two annotation changes and 

12 four proposals. Zea?

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Just one moment 

14 while I pull this up. I have to shift here. Which 

15 one are we doing first?

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Your annotation 

17 changes.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. 

19 Micronutrients?

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Micronutrients, 

21 yes.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. We took a 
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1 look at the annotation for micronutrients. And in 

2 the first posting of this sunset review, in the 

3 spring, we did receive considerable input from 

4 users and certifiers that the micronutrients 

5 restriction was out of date and not so much in tune 

6 with growers' needs or certifiers' verification 

7 needs and needed to be more flexible.

8 So, we decided that the fewer words we 

9 had to change in the annotation, the better. And 

10 so we proposed a very simple annotation change to 

11 change it from "soil deficiency must be documented 

12 by testing" to "deficiency must be documented." 

13 This would allow for other well-accepted ways of 

14 documenting it. These include tissue testing, 

15 regional deficiencies that are well known by 

16 cooperative extension agents or regional 

17 publications, professional crop advisors and 

18 agronomists and other professionals accepted by the 

19 organic community. 

20 Now, the comments that we heard back 

21 were that they wanted us to say site-specific in the 

22 recommendation, in the annotation. I happen to 
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1 think that part of documenting it is showing 

2 site-specificity, and so that doesn't really need 

3 to be said. It's imbedded in there, and that's 

4 exactly what any ACA would take into consideration 

5 when they're looking at deficiencies. You look at 

6 was it a sandy soil, a clay soil, the organic matter 

7 content. Is the region known to have a copper 

8 deficiency, a zinc deficiency, et cetera? 

9 Certainly, that's what happens in my 

10 area. And in general the micronutrients 

11 themselves are expensive enough and hard to deal 

12 with enough that over-application is generally not 

13 likely to occur. And so you really try to fine-tune 

14 your micronutrients applications to those that are 

15 the most needed by your crop and your site-specific 

16 situation.

17 Another thing we heard is that people 

18 should have a plan to correct the nitrogen 

19 deficiency. To me, this is already like what the 

20 OSP is about, and the core parts of organic farming 

21 are you put in your plan how you're going to operate 

22 your system and try to prevent problems before they 
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1 happen and correct problems that already are 

2 happening. So, I don't feel like this needs to be 

3 a separate clause in the annotation. And as we all 

4 know, the Department likes us to keep the 

5 annotations as simple as possible and rely on the 

6 other portions of the rule to describe the overall 

7 procedures that happen around the specific material 

8 use.

9 So, we heard a lot of support for this 

10 proposal and public comment, also. And so I'm 

11 ready to move forward with it. I am interested in 

12 hearing discussion from other members of the Board. 

13 Francis?

14 MEMBER THICKE: Well, I guess these 

15 comments that we got kind of caught my attention 

16 because there are out there in the real world a lot 

17 of soil consultants who also sell fertilizers, and 

18 so they kind of have a routine process of trying to 

19 get you to buy fertilizer. And so a little more 

20 annotation to say it has to be site-specific and it 

21 needs a plan to correct it in the future can't hurt. 

22 Now, with this they'll send it back, though, if we 
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1 changed it? Correct?

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, yes, if we 

3 change it, it has to send it back. But I want 

4 specific language, because putting on my inspector 

5 hat for a minute, if I ever go to a farm and see that 

6 a fertilizer salesman is the only one supplying them 

7 with their information for what they should use, I'm 

8 not going to put that in my report as meeting the 

9 annotation that exists now. 

10 This is why we use the word 

11 "professional" in the text, because one single -- 

12 and believe me, I've seen this many times where 

13 they're relying on the fertilizer salesman for all 

14 their advice. And sometimes they've never met 

15 anyone who's organic besides the fertilizer 

16 salesman. And that does not constitute sufficient 

17 documentation. So, they need independent 

18 documentation. And, you know, maybe independent 

19 documentation should be a word. But if you want to 

20 take it back to committee, you need to think of what 

21 word.

22 MEMBER THICKE: Well, I think one of the 
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1 wording that came through a number of times said 

2 deficiency must be documented through verifiable 

3 site-specific methods and accompanied with a plan 

4 for future correction of deficiency. Sounds like 

5 it captures it pretty well.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: To me, that doesn't 

7 say anything about fertilizer salesmen. It only 

8 said the things that I just mentioned about, you 

9 know, yes, I have sandy soil or the site-specific 

10 things. It doesn't say who's telling them those 

11 site-specific things.

12 MEMBER THICKE: You're right, it 

13 doesn't tell that, but it does put a little more 

14 guidance in. You certainly have seen the salesmen. 

15 I mean, I've seen a whole book written by a very 

16 famous national soil consultant who doesn't have a 

17 stitch of data in it to support any of what he does, 

18 but people all across the country, not 

19 site-specific at all, follow it and sell based upon 

20 that book. 

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Other comments? 

22 Harold?
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: When we go through our 

2 certification and our annual review, we have to 

3 provide either a soil analysis, leaf analysis, 

4 fruitlet analysis, field scattering report 

5 documenting exactly what it is that we're seeing is 

6 deficient and why we're putting it on. We can also 

7 include visual notes that we've seen deficiencies, 

8 you know, the symptomology within the plant or the 

9 tissue itself, but that all has to be documented. 

10 And when we go through our annual 

11 review, we're held to that accountability pretty 

12 rigorously. So, I don't think we're that far 

13 skewed, to be honest. I think this is a good 

14 annotation and helps match up. Because it's going 

15 to vary from site to site and geographic area to 

16 geographic area how this gets performed.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Anyone else? Nick?

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: Well, in the interest 

19 of sounding sensible, maybe, if you get down to this 

20 at a site-specific level -- and it has to be by crop 

21 as well -- these are not like black and white, like, 

22 oh, there it is, we got a deficiency. These are 
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1 judgment calls. I don't know how much more 

2 specific we can get, and I'm thinking about what I 

3 see there is probably about as good as you're going 

4 to get. 

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yeah, and in fact, 

6 limiting to soil documentation of soil testing has 

7 so many limitations because it can vary so much from 

8 the time of year, from crop to crop, what amendments 

9 you put on, how recently, were there availability 

10 or not at that particular time. And so it's just 

11 more flexibility is needed because this doesn't 

12 exactly tell the whole story.

13 Harold?

14 MEMBER AUSTIN: Well, I think that also 

15 brings to the point the variations in testing 

16 itself, Zea, because whether you're pulling a 

17 standard bioassay soil analysis or you're doing a 

18 paste extraction, you may get two different 

19 results. And what I see showing deficient in a soil 

20 may be completely different when I run a fruitlet 

21 analysis, what that gives me back. 

22 So, there's a lot of different variables 
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1 and I think we can't get too descriptive on this and 

2 block us into too tight of a corner. Because each 

3 grower, farm and each crop working with their field 

4 advisory consultant, they know what they're doing 

5 out there. I mean, this is their livelihood. 

6 I mean, I think this is good. It's a 

7 good direction. It's an improvement from where we 

8 were, but I agree with Nick, I don't think we can 

9 take and get much more specific than what we already 

10 are doing with this proposed annotation.

11 MEMBER THICKE: I'm willing to go along 

12 with you guys. But I thought it was good to have 

13 this discussion, though.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Oh, it is good to 

15 have this discussion because it lets both community 

16 members and the certifiers in the audience know what 

17 we expect from them, because we would expect that 

18 everyone's inspection was as vigorous as Harold's 

19 and mine and other inspectors in the room might 

20 conduct on a farm.

21 MEMBER THICKE: I'd like to make one 

22 last comment, though. A lot of what soil 
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1 consultants do is not based on data. It's just

2 they're shooting from the hip.

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, I know. 

4 That's why you have to be careful and be careful as 

5 an inspector and make sure that you're looking at 

6 something that actually is variable. But, you 

7 know, UC has publications today on growing organic 

8 apples, growing organic blueberries, growing 

9 organic whatever. And you can go to those 

10 publications and it will talk a lot of times about 

11 regional needs for micronutrients. And so that's 

12 a verifiable extension publication that would back 

13 up either your test results or back up what your 

14 consultant told you, for instance.

15 Nick?

16 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, I'd like to 

17 share Francis' skepticism there, but we really 

18 can't help save people from themselves through the 

19 regulations. I mean, at a certain point you're 

20 going to have to let people make their own 

21 decisions. And you shouldn't be spending money --

22 and that's one way to look at this -- farmers 
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1 generally won't spend money unless they're really 

2 convinced that they need. Although, we've seen 

3 that not to be the case sometimes.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: This doesn't get you 

5 out of spending money because you're either testing 

6 or you're paying a consultant to tell you what to 

7 do. 

8 Jean?

9 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yeah, as an 

10 inspector I really like the way you've got the 

11 annotation worded. It gives the right kind of 

12 flexibility, boots on the ground when you go to a 

13 farm. It's nice to be able to see, well, how did 

14 you decide you needed that extra? And it's often 

15 not from a soil test. It's from your visual 

16 observations over time. So, it's good.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. I guess 

18 we're ready to vote. Am I calling the vote or one 

19 of you -- are you guys -- 

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Call for the vote on 

21 the proposed annotation change on micronutrients. 

22 All those in favor of the proposed annotation change 
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1 as written and presented, raise your hand.

2 (Pause.)

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Those opposed, 

4 raise your hand?

5 (Pause.)

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any abstentions?

7 (Pause.)

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was 12 yes, 1 

9 no, 1 abstention. The motion passes.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Next is an 

11 annotation change for EPA List 4 inerts. 

12 Well, we mentioned some of this the 

13 other day, but I will go over it again. It's been 

14 quite some time now since the EPA asked the NOP to 

15 remove the reference to EPA List 4 because EPA List 

16 4 is no longer in use by the EPA. At which time, the 

17 Inerts Working Group was -- well, not quite at that 

18 time, but eventually the Inerts Working Group was 

19 formed and undertook to survey how many inerts were 

20 in use in organic products at the time -- which is 

21 going on like what, four or five years now since that 

22 was done -- and has been working on a solution to 
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1 this.

2 In the last year or so we started 

3 exploring with the EPA Safer Choice Program, 

4 formerly called Design for the Environment. And in 

5 order for this program to move forward, an 

6 annotation change needs to be approved to the 

7 National List to actually remove the EPA List 4 

8 language and put in the working with the Safer 

9 Choice Program language. 

10 So, after that happened, this is the 

11 first step in a long series of steps, which Emily 

12 and I together have put into this document in bullet 

13 points. Well, let's see. About half of the 

14 comments we got said we were moving too slow on this 

15 and the other half said we're moving too fast on 

16 this. And so we are trying to find the balance 

17 between the slow and the fast, which will make 

18 nobody happy, but at least it will mean something's 

19 happening.

20 So, the steps would include after this 

21 is voted on and hopefully passes that a Federal 

22 Register notice will come out to notify the 
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1 stakeholders of the program with procedures. And 

2 this will also be what was called in some public

3 comments the call-in for new information to be 

4 either petitioned in the way of inerts or applied 

5 to the Safer Choice Program to have the inerts 

6 reviewed. 

7 The Federal Register notice will also be 

8 followed by rulemaking to amend the National List 

9 with the annotation change. Along with that will 

10 come a timeline for implementation which we expect 

11 to be three to five years so that manufacturers can 

12 apply for consideration for the SCIL list or 

13 petition the NOSB and/or reformulate their 

14 products.

15 An MOU or other mechanism needs to be 

16 finalized to solidify the agreement between the NOP 

17 and the Safer Choice Program. And then the 

18 specifics of the program need to be hammered out, 

19 many of which were brought up as gaps in this 

20 proposal. We realize that there are those gaps in 

21 this proposal, but we have the interim period to 

22 work on it instead of postponing everything for six 
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1 more months.

2 Then the final bullet point is to 

3 establish a procedure for the NOSB to review the 

4 SCIL list to identify those criteria in OFPA and 

5 address them that are not in the SCIL list. And we 

6 appended the comparison between the criteria to the 

7 end of the document, which show that there are not 

8 very many gaps. They're really quite similar, but 

9 there are a few. And we do want to be diligent about 

10 addressing those few gaps and we will be developing 

11 a procedure to do that.

12 So, some of the areas of concern that 

13 were identified by the public comment include the 

14 lack of that procedure. We've only had preliminary 

15 talks on some of these procedural items, and so 

16 we're not ready to go to that level of a proposal, 

17 but realize that, if this passes, I'm sure every six 

18 months at our NOSB meetings will be reports or 

19 updates of where we're going with periodic 

20 opportunities for public comment and review of what 

21 our procedures actually are once we develop them. 

22 So in either six months or a year from 
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1 now we will have -- probably not to anyone's 

2 satisfaction, or most of your satisfaction -- but 

3 we will at least have transparency in what the 

4 procedures will be and future opportunities for 

5 public comment on those procedures.

6 So, they include things such as how 

7 we're going to address regular reporting from SCIL, 

8 which we've already asked them if they could do 

9 regular reports to the Board for each meeting, and 

10 they've said that would be no problem. What we're 

11 going to do with those reports. How things are 

12 going to look on the SCIL list when they've reviewed 

13 for organic by some sort of notation, as I mentioned 

14 to Harriet, or possibly in a separate section of 

15 separate page. 

16 What's going to happen to those 

17 chemicals that are already on SCIL but may be used 

18 in organic products, but we're not really aware of 

19 them? And so that's kind of a loose end that has 

20 to be worked out. And also some people were 

21 concerned that the SCIL list contains active 

22 ingredients and people would think that those 
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1 active ingredients would be allowed even though 

2 they're not on the National List. And we'll make 

3 that very clear that that is not the case, because 

4 nobody thinks that is the case around here.

5 The formulators and others need to have 

6 a fairly specific timeline. And so, that will be 

7 a piece that we'll be working on. Of course the 

8 public wants to know, but the people who actually 

9 have a stake in this game really need to know what 

10 to do with their products. We heard lots of comment 

11 from people who are reluctant to even make new 

12 products because they're afraid of what inerts they 

13 use in them, and so it's hampering future 

14 development for more products for organic. And 

15 this is a very grave concern and one that we would 

16 like to address as soon as possible.

17 And we have been successful in reaching 

18 out to some of those stakeholders who have 

19 associations for formulating products and 

20 adjuvants in biopesticides, and so they're all 

21 paying attention now. And that's a major benefit, 

22 or a major positive, because it's been very hard to 
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1 reach those people in the past to get them to be 

2 aware of this. 

3 So, we do feel that it is worthwhile to 

4 proceed, because, as I said at the outset, we're 

5 going to wait six months and not much more is going 

6 to have happened if we don't proceed. We are not 

7 going back to putting individual inerts on the 

8 National List, just like we're not going back to 

9 putting individual ancillary substances on the 

10 National List. And now you only have 

11 two-and-a-half hours to apply for that position and 

12 take over this project, if you want to do it. 

13 So, as I said the other day, it does 

14 become a matter of trust or not. And we realize 

15 some of you don't trust us no matter what we do, and 

16 so I'm not talking to you, because you can just keep 

17 bashing us as much as you want to. But the rest of 

18 you, we are taking the concerns to heart, and if you

19 can trust us to try and work out these details and 

20 maintain transparency as we work through it and 

21 engage public comments at the appropriate times, 

22 then we would like to move forward with this 
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1 proposal. 

2 So, I would like to hear -- because we 

3 haven't had a chance to talk about this as a full 

4 Board, so I am interested to hear the impressions 

5 from my fellow Board members. Thank you.

6 MEMBER STONE: So, we need to pass this 

7 out so that then the conversation can continue and 

8 with EPA. Where are the MROs and the certifiers? 

9 Are they clear as to what they're doing while this 

10 is being -- while the agreements with EPA and the 

11 conversations -- what's the timeline of clarity for 

12 MROs and certifiers?

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, until there's 

14 a final rule to change it, they're operating under 

15 what we're operating under right now. So, I think 

16 all the ACAs and MROs are quite clear on that. 

17 Jean?

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, I'm sitting on 

19 this EPA Working Group now with Zea and we've gone 

20 through on these -- in these conversations this 

21 analysis on the comparison of review criteria that 

22 you see in Appendix 1 that's attached to this and 
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1 discussed the changing trends at EPA obviously that 

2 make this really kind of necessary. And I really 

3 strongly support this language right now so that we 

4 can keep on moving forward with this. 

5 I think it's really important for us to 

6 give the green light. Nothing we do is really going 

7 to be perfect on this. It's a very, very complex 

8 area, but I think that this makes it much clearer 

9 and cleaner and it will allow us to keep on moving 

10 forward to assure the integrity of the organic 

11 products that we're generating.

12 I'm going to call on myself for one 

13 little point I forgot to mention before we keep 

14 going. OMRI made a comment that they thought 25(b) 

15 products would be included under the way this is 

16 worded. I just don't see that because the heading 

17 says synthetic inert ingredients. And so, I don't 

18 think we have to say it again down there, but we 

19 have -- the footnoted portion of this is not 

20 correct, Emily realized. 

21 And so, we would like to insert two words 

22 that we don't feel are a substantive change into 
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1 (I), the first one, which would say, "Substances 

2 permitted for use in inerts in minimal risk products 

3 exempt from pesticide registration." And remove 

4 the footnote, right? Yes. Tracy?

5 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: I'd just like to add 

6 we looked at this in livestock as well, because we 

7 do have an annotation for it as well there, and felt

8 first of all that our initial take on List 4 inerts 

9 was that it was, as I said the other day, too big 

10 an elephant to chew. And this actually gives us a 

11 means for doing something. And I think several of 

12 us have said this: it's not a perfect solution. But 

13 the checklist between what we would do as a review 

14 of the Board versus the Safer Choice review are not 

15 that dissimilar. And then we still have the option 

16 for further review within the Board. And I think 

17 we have to support this to move it forward or we're 

18 going to end up stuck with another one of these 

19 squirrelly listings that we don't know what to do 

20 with. 

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: And one additional 

22 point I forgot to mention in things to work out is 
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1 we do plan to work on a procedure for petitioning 

2 to withdraw something that's been put on the SCIL 

3 list. Like any petition, it has to have evidence 

4 in it, but something that comes through with 

5 evidence you will be able to flag things that have 

6 been added to that list for us to do further work 

7 on.

8 Any other comments? Colehour?

9 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay. I think I have 

10 what is probably a clarification question of what's 

11 already been discussed. And my head is pretty 

12 messed up right now, so I apologize if you've 

13 already said it all.

14 But since the SCIL list process doesn't 

15 require a public notice and comment like adding 

16 something to the National List -- and so just to 

17 understand it, if something is there and we adopt 

18 it with whatever rationale or criteria that have 

19 been created in the future development process, 

20 then, like you just said, we could then choose 

21 afterwards to remove something. I don't know about 

22 the horse and cart issue, but it seems a little bit 
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1 concerning to me in terms of what are these items,

2 when are we going to get a chance to review them, 

3 and when is who doing what kind of review of them 

4 in terms of making those determinations? And so, 

5 I'm not sure that it's clear or how or when we're 

6 measuring these materials against the required 

7 criteria. Thank you.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, I did say some 

9 of this, and the specific details are not fully 

10 worked out, but what I anticipate is we'll get a 

11 report from SCIL every six months. It will say 

12 these materials have been reviewed in the last six 

13 months. We should be able to if we want to post 

14 those with our meeting notice so that the public can 

15 be aware of what has happened every six months. And 

16 at that point people can comment as they wish on 

17 anything they feel that doesn't belong there and we 

18 can discuss those things.

19 Anyone else? Francis?

20 MEMBER THICKE: Well, I keep thinking 

21 that regardless of whether we go with the SCIL or 

22 with investigating each of the materials 
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1 individually, like with ancillary substances, this 

2 is really something that we need to have staff to 

3 do. This is not something that we can do, and we're 

4 not going to recruit somebody to come on this Board 

5 and do all that work. In any organization this is 

6 staff work or hired consultants. 

7 We're not going to try to put it all on 

8 you, Emily. 

9 But we can hire like technical 

10 reviewers. We need to have this -- we need to 

11 identify all these materials and have them all 

12 reviewed independently. And then we can work on 

13 that. But we can't do all that.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Francis, you're 

15 right, we can't do all that, however, neither can 

16 any amount of NOP staff because the SCIL program has 

17 access to confidential EPA information that no one 

18 in the NOP has about these inert ingredients. And 

19 the advantage with working with SCIL, one of the 

20 main advantages; and maybe we didn't make this clear 

21 enough in our report, in our posting, is that we are 

22 totally stuck because we are just guessing what 
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1 products these are used on. We don't have the 

2 resources of chemists and special panels that 

3 review different things for compatibility with 

4 sustainable principles and things like that. And 

5 they have all of that set up already. They have 

6 independent scientists, they have a review 

7 procedure, they have access to confidential 

8 information. And this is really the great 

9 advantage of working with the EPA directly. As it 

10 says in OFPA we should be doing, is working with the 

11 EPA on inert ingredients. So it is a unique 

12 opportunity in that way that I think will just end 

13 up getting the ball dropped if we don't do something 

14 like this.

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, I agree with 

16 Francis and with what you just said about 

17 inter-agency cooperation, and there are many ways 

18 to approach that with interagency agreements. And 

19 I would also point out that the statute authorizes 

20 the NOSB to either hire or be detailed staff as well.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Miles?

22 MR. McEVOY: Yes, just another point of 
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1 clarification. Yes, the statute does say that, but 

2 you have to get appropriated the funds to be able 

3 to utilize that, and you haven't been appropriated 

4 any funds. So Congress has that authority to do so, 

5 but you don't have any funds to do that.

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: Have any funds ever 

7 been requested?

8 MR. McEVOY: I do not know that.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Anyone else with 

10 feedback on this?

11 (No audible response.)

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. I think we 

13 are ready to vote.

14 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So we're going to 

15 vote on a long motion, and let me just refer you to 

16 your paper so you can read along with Jean. I'll 

17 read it since it is a lengthy complex motion.

18 The new motion that we're bringing 

19 forward, a proposed change on 205.601(m) and 

20 205.603(e). It will read: "As synthetic inert 

21 ingredients as classified by the Environmental 

22 Protection Agency for use with non-synthetic 
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1 substances or synthetic substances listed in this 

2 section and used as an active pesticide ingredient 

3 in accordance with any limitations on the use of any 

4 such substances. (1) Substances permitted for use 

5 in the inerts in minimal risk products exempt from 

6 pesticide registration under FIFRA Section 25(b). 

7 (2) Substances included on the EPA's Safer Chemical 

8 Ingredient List. (3) Inert ingredients that are 

9 exempt from the requirement of a tolerance under 40 

10 C.F.R. 180.1122 for use only in passive pheromone 

11 dispensers. (4) Reserved for any other inerts 

12 individually petitioned or reviewed."

13 All those in favor of this proposed 

14 change, raise your hand?

15 (Pause.)

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Those opposed?

17 (Pause.)

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Any abstentions?

19 (Pause.)

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: That was 10 yes, 4 

21 no. The motion passes.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you very much. 
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1 It does mean we have more work and not less work, 

2 but -- 

3 Okay. Now, we're going to move to our 

4 petitioned materials. The first one is laminarin.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Excuse me for the 

6 interruption. Would anyone like a 15-minute break 

7 at this point, or you want to go on? Break? Okay. 

8 We'll take a 15-minute break and come back at 10 

9 minutes past 3:00.

10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

11 went off the record at 2:54 p.m. and resumed at 3:16 

12 p.m.)

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, Zea is 

14 sitting down and putting on that incredibly 

15 handsome t-shirt. You should be aware of the fact 

16 that it is made of organic cotton, of course. I did 

17 get a question on this, but we wouldn't do anything 

18 else.

19 All right, so we will now move along on 

20 the Crops Subcommittee and take the next petitioned 

21 material proposal over to you, for Dr. Brines, I 

22 guess.
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1 DR. BRINES: As the petition for 

2 laminarin was submitted on May 30, 2013, it was 

3 submitted by Laboratoires Goemar, S.A. The 

4 petition requests the addition of laminarin to 

5 Section 205.601 of the National Centers for Disease 

6 Control. This petition was also on the agenda for 

7 April 2014 NOSB meeting. Following the meeting, 

8 the subcommittee did request the development of a 

9 third party technical evaluation report of limited 

10 scope. That report was developed and posted on the 

11 NOP website as well as the 2014 and 2015 NOSB 

12 subcommittee proposals and the petition. Thanks.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, this is 

14 material that we saw before I believe in the spring 

15 of 2014. At that time, the Board sent it back 

16 because it needed a TR on whether it was synthetic 

17 or non-synthetic. So we requested a limited scope 

18 technical review on the extraction process.

19 We concluded from that that as 

20 subcommittee that laminarin is non-synthetic. It 

21 has been extracted with an acid-base reaction and 

22 in the classification of materials guidance it 
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1 states that an acid-base reaction is acceptance, as 

2 long as the material has not been transformed into 

3 a different substance by chemical change or has been 

4 altered into a form that does not occur in nature 

5 and also that the synthetic materials have been 

6 removed from the final substance to the point where 

7 they have no technical or functional effect.

8 So while there is a very small amount of 

9 sodium silicate in the -- sodium sulfate, sorry, in

10 the final product, it does not have a technical or 

11 functional effect. And I gave the percentages of 

12 the ions so that you can see that it is very small.

13 I should also say that we heard at the 

14 first when we posted it, before we heard testimony 

15 from, OMRI that they would consider -- well, back 

16 up. This product is a registered pesticide. It is 

17 a seaweed product, but it works by stimulating the 

18 plant's natural defense system to help fight off 

19 diseases. And as such, it is being reviewed 

20 similar to pesticides rather than similar to 

21 fertilizers. And in that case, the sodium sulfate 

22 would be considered an inert ingredient and is, in 
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1 fact, on List 4. And OMNI had written this to that 

2 effect as well.

3 So I will open it up to discussion and 

4 I was going to wait until Carmela talked about brown 

5 seaweed next so we go into the differences here. 

6 But if someone wants to bring that up, we can talk 

7 about it because I understand it might be confusing. 

8 But this product on the basis of the classification 

9 of materials guidance plus the fact that it's a 

10 registered pesticide, we have decided to propose 

11 classifying it as non-synthetic.

12 The floor is open. Jean.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: I know that one of 

14 the public interest groups did raise some concern 

15 that it may still be a synthetic because of the 

16 extraction method. I know you've just explained 

17 it, but could you help us to set their concerns to 

18 rest?

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Some public 

20 commenters do not agree with the classification of

21 materials guidance which is interim and not final 

22 which does accept acid-base reactions as valid 
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1 methods of extraction. I should point out that 

2 many, many of our non-synthetic materials which 

3 don't have to be on the national list, but are 

4 non-synthetic, are extracted with acid-base 

5 reactions and so there is much precedent for this, 

6 but most of those things have not been reviewed by 

7 us because it's been commonly accepted that they're 

8 non-synthetic.

9 MEMBER MARAVELL: My memory isn't too 

10 good on this, but the classification of materials 

11 document I heard you refer to it as interim. My 

12 recollection is we never approved it, and that's why 

13 it remained in draft. But I could be wrong, so 

14 please --

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: It's not up to us to 

16 approve.

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: It was issued by the 

19 Department as interim.

20 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right, but we had --

21 we offered guidance on it.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: We offered comments 
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1 on it in 2013. It has not proceeded to final yet 

2 so we don't know if our comments were adopted, but 

3 that was not one of our comments about acid-base 

4 reactions.

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: No, no, no. But I 

6 seem to remember we were not in agreement as a board 

7 as to the guidance that we gave back to the 

8 Department as well.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: No, we -- well, it 

10 never went to the full board. The subcommittee 

11 offered the comments and the subcommittee did vote 

12 on those comments.

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: Right, but the full 

14 board did not.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Right. 

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Miles.

17 MR. McEVOY: Yes, the draft guidance 

18 that was issued 2013 was based on the NOSB 

19 recommendation on the classification of materials. 

20 So the draft guidance that was issued was based on 

21 implementing and recommendation from the board on 

22 the classification of materials. And then we 
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1 requested public comment on that and we received a 

2 number of public comments and we're in the process 

3 of finalizing that. 

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Truthfully --

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: There's something 

6 lost in my mind, but you might be -- I didn't know 

7 that the full board sent forward anything.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: It was before any of 

9 us were on the board, but Katrina Heinze might still 

10 be here if we needed her to clarify.

11 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, Katrina 

12 certainly could.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: The full board did 

14 -- she wrote it and the full board did vote on a 

15 classification of materials, I think in 2010, if I'm 

16 not mistaken.

17 Anyone else want to make comments about

18 laminarin? Francis.

19 MEMBER THICKE: I am just going to 

20 mention that I am going to abstain because the 

21 classification is based upon draft items which is 

22 in itself controversial.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Anyone else? 

2 All right, I think we're ready to vote.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: We are voting on a 

4 motion to classify laminarin as petitioned as 

5 non-synthetic. All those in favor of that motion, 

6 please raise your hand.

7 Those opposed, raise your hand.

8 Those abstaining.

9 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was nine, 

10 yes; three, no; two abstentions. Motion fails. 

11 I'm sorry, passes.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: It passes. You're 

13 sure?

14 She's just checking to make sure. I 

15 think we wouldn't know what to do next if it didn't.

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Just a little jolt of 

17 adrenalin to get everybody awake this afternoon.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: So now, Carmela --

19 oh, brown seaweed isn't right after laminarin. 

20 Okay. We have determined that we did not need to 

21 vote on the lignin sulfonate proposal to remove --

22 since lignin sulfonate was removed in the sunset 
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1 vote. And so we're going to move then to the 

2 sulfuric acid proposal which would be Francis, 

3 right?

4 DR. BRINES: Francis, I can introduce 

5 before you start. The petition for sulfuric acid 

6 was submitted by BioAtlantis Limited on November 

7 24, 2014. The petition requests the addition of 

8 sulfuric acid to Section 205.601 of the national 

9 list as a solubilizing agent. In support of the 

10 review, the subcommittee proposal and the original 

11 petition have been posted on the NOP website. 

12 Thank you.

13 MEMBER THICKE: So the petition is to 

14 take micronutrients and solubilize with sulfuric 

15 acid which the Crops Committee had concerns about 

16 because it's like -- sort of like an input 

17 substitution sort of thing, highly refining 

18 micronutrients. It's designed to spoon feed 

19 plants in ways that circumvent the natural soil 

20 building processes that's central to organic 

21 farming systems. That's all I have to say for now 

22 unless you have any questions.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Any discussion on 

2 this? Okay, we can vote.

3 CHAIR RICHARDSON: First is the 

4 classification motion. Move to classify sulfuric 

5 acid as petitioned as synthetic. 

6 All those in favor of that motion please 

7 raise your hand.

8 Those opposed, please raise your hand.

9 Any abstentions?

10 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is 14, yes; 

11 0, no. Motion passes.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The listing motion 

13 is a motion to list sulfuric acid as petitioned at 

14 205.601.

15 All those in favor of such a listing, 

16 please raise your hand.

17 All those opposed to that listing, 

18 please raise your hand.

19 Any abstentions?

20 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is 0, yes; 

21 14, no. The motion fails.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. Last, 
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1 but not least -- yes, Harold?

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: Question. On the 

3 laminarin vote it was 9, yes; 3, no; 2 abstained?

4 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: Yes.

5 MEMBER AUSTIN: If I'm not mistaken, 

6 doesn't it take ten votes to pass that?

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Abstentions don't 

8 count towards the proportion of two thirds.

9 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Thank you.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, moving on now 

11 to brown seaweed extracts. Lisa.

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The petition 

13 for seaweed extracts was submitted by BioAtlantis 

14 Limited on October 3, 2014. The petition requests 

15 the addition of seaweed extracts to Section 205.601 

16 of the national list. In support of the review, the 

17 subcommittee proposal and the 2014 petition have 

18 been posted on the NOP website. Thanks.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Carmela.

20 MEMBER BECK: As Lisa said, the Crops 

21 Subcommittee received a petition from BioAtlantis 

22 Limited for brown seaweed extract in early 2015 for 
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1 use as a plant strengthener or fertilizer used to 

2 improve shoot growth and seed germination. 

3 Although described as a plant strengthener, the two 

4 products were labeled as a 0-0-3 fertilizer and a 

5 0-0-1 fertilizer. 

6 Material use is through foliar 

7 applications or fertigation. There's a three step 

8 manufacturing process whereby seaweed is harvested 

9 and extracted with tap water. The pH is lowered to 

10 a 3.5 minimum by adding a low concentration of 

11 sulfuric acid. The mixture is then centrifuged to 

12 separate seaweed insoluble from liquid extract and 

13 potassium hydroxide is added to adjust the pH of the 

14 liquid extract to near neutral.

15 Similar to laminarin, both are seaweed 

16 extracts. Both use sulfuric acid and potassium 

17 hydroxide for extraction. However, in this 

18 instance, the subcommittee determined that the 

19 brown seaweed extract material should be classified 

20 as synthetic per the draft guidance and 

21 classification of materials. Because the 

22 fertilizer use of brown seaweed that's on the 
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1 national list is an aquatic product only allows 

2 potassium hydroxide, but not sulfuric acid.

3 This addition of sulfuric acid has a 

4 functional effect in the final product. Because 

5 OFPA prohibits the use of any fertilizers 

6 containing synthetic ingredients, and we don't wish 

7 to add sulfuric acid to the list for this purpose, 

8 brown seaweed as petitioned cannot be added to the 

9 national list.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: I can call on 

11 myself. I think it is important to add because it 

12 could be confusing if we vote this down to have 

13 people think that all brown seaweed wouldn't be 

14 allowed. But that's why we have the words in there 

15 "brown seaweed as petitioned" because this is the 

16 brown seaweed that is formulated with sulfuric acid 

17 as an extracted. And there are plenty of other 

18 brown seaweeds that do meet our aquatic plant 

19 restrictions and therefore, those are still 

20 allowed. But this particular one is not, would 

21 not, once we vote.

22 So is everyone clear on the difference 
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1 between this an laminarin and the difference in 

2 regulations?

3 I'm not seeing anyone shake their head 

4 no, so that's good. Does anyone have any 

5 discussion points? All right, I believe we can 

6 vote on this.

7 CHAIR RICHARDSON: There are two 

8 motions. The first motion is the classification 

9 motion. There is a motion to classify brown 

10 seaweed extract as petitioned as synthetic. 

11 All in favor of that motion, please 

12 raise your hand.

13 All those opposed, please raise your 

14 hand.

15 Abstentions?

16 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote is 14, yes; 

17 0, no. The motion passes.

18 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The second motion in 

19 connection with this petition is a listing motion. 

20 The motion is to add seaweed extract as the word 

21 brown is not in there. I will read it into the 

22 record though. "The motion is to add brown seaweed 
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1 extract as petitioned at 205.601."

2 All those in favor of this motion to add 

3 this to the national list, please raise your hand.

4 MEMBER CHAPMAN: Madam Chair, I request 

5 a roll call vote, please.

6 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The motion has been 

7 made to do a roll call vote, so we will do that. 

8 We'll start with -- I think we're up to Colehour. 

9 Sorry, Tom.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: No.

11 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Tracy.

12 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: No.

13 MEMBER SWAFFAR: No.

14 MEMBER BECK: No.

15 MEMBER TAYLOR: No.

16 MEMBER MARAVELL: No.

17 MEMBER THICKE: No.

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: No.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: No.

20 MEMBER STONE: No.

21 MEMBER WALKER: No, ma'am.

22 MEMBER DE LIMA: No.
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1 MEMBER BONDERA: No.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: The chair votes no. 

3 Harold, do you want me to speak for you?

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: No.

5 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Thank you. 

6 MEMBER AUSTIN: Take that either way.

7 (Laughter.)

8 VICE CHAIR FAVRE: The vote was 0, yes; 

9 14, no. The motion fails.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: This concludes the 

11 Crops Subcommittee portion of the agenda. Thank 

12 you.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: So then now we move 

14 into the election of the NOSB officers at this 

15 point. And so I'll give you a few minutes to think

16 what you want to do and if you're really willing to 

17 step forward, you should know that I am not in the 

18 running, so I'm going to take a break and sit there 

19 and smile all next to you on this side down there 

20 where Zea is so I can just smile.

21 So are we ready for officer elections? 

22 I would entertain -- I know we can do it informally 
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1 or formally, but we might as well do a motion to put 

2 someone's name forward with a second. Is there a 

3 motion for the highly respectable and much desired 

4 position of chair of the NOSB? Is there a motion? 

5 I see one. Calvin.

6 MEMBER WALKER: Madam Chair, I would 

7 like to make a motion to nominate this particular 

8 person who has served on the Handling Committee, 

9 chair of the Policy Committee, chair of the 

10 Livestock Committee, currently the vice chair and 

11 I recommend her to serve as the next NOSB chair.

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: I will second that.

13 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Second by Harold, 

14 motion by Calvin. He said Tracy. Oh, he didn't?

15 MEMBER WALKER: Tracy Favre.

16 CHAIR RICHARDSON: All right, we have a 

17 name. Tracy Favre. Just checking to make sure 

18 everyone is listening.

19 Are there any other nominations for 

20 chair or anyone who would like to self-nominate 

21 themselves for this position, because we are 

22 allowed to do either of those.
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1 Seeing none, the chair, unless there is 

2 any objections for anyone around this table or out 

3 there on the West Coast, the chair would declare by 

4 acclamation that Tracy Favre gets this terrific job 

5 of being the next chair of the NOSB. And she's 

6 looking quite embarrassed, but she'll do just fine.

7 Do you want me to finish the rest of the 

8 vote? 

9 All right, so the next one -- are there 

10 any nominations for the vice chair of the NOSB? Oh, 

11 that's me. I would like to nominate, if I may, I 

12 would like to nominate Tom Chapman. I've noticed 

13 that he has the excellent ability to work with two 

14 computers. He uses absolutely no paper at these 

15 meetings and he's apparently capable of merging 

16 both of the old PPM and the new one all into one 

17 document. And so therefore, I get to nominate him 

18 as the vice chair of the NOSB.

19 Is there a second?

20 MEMBER TAYLOR: I second.

21 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Seconded by a couple 

22 of people. Looks like --
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1 MEMBER TAYLOR: Jennifer Taylor.

2 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jennifer. Thank 

3 you. Are there any other people that would like to 

4 self-nominate for this illustrious task assuming 

5 you have all the right computer skills? Seeing 

6 none and --

7 MR. CHAPMAN: I have a question.

8 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Sorry, you're not 

9 allowed one right now. You can have one later.

10 He can refuse a nomination, but he's not 

11 going to and his questions can come in a little bit, 

12 in a minute or two. 

13 The chair declares by acclamation and 

14 without objection to all persons around this board 

15 and on the West Coast that Tom Chapman is the next 

16 vice chair of the NOSB.

17 Now you can say something very briefly.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: I just wanted to know if 

19 it came with a raise.

20 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Yes, yes, yes, it 

21 does. It's double what it was for the last vice 

22 chair.
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1 The third person as an officer is that 

2 of secretary. The secretary is the person that 

3 keeps track of a wide range of things on the board, 

4 helps with the voting, and looks at the report of 

5 this committee in order to approve that at the 

6 meeting and is active on the Executive Committee and 

7 on the Administrative Committee as well.

8 Are there any nominations for this job?

9 Jennifer?

10 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you. I would 

11 like to nominate Lisa de Lima.

12 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Jennifer nominates 

13 Lisa de Lima for secretary. Is there a second?

14 MEMBER SWAFFAR: Second.

15 CHAIR RICHARDSON: Second by Ashley. 

16 Are there any people that would like to nominate 

17 themselves up for this job? Seeing none, I will 

18 state by acclamation we will elect Lisa to the 

19 position of secretary at this time. Thank you, 

20 Lisa.

21 So therefore, now I turn it over to Tracy 

22 at this point. She doesn't realize that, but now 
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1 she has to run through the subcommittee work agendas 

2 that Michelle is going to put up. And I am going 

3 to pass on to her my magic wand which will bring her 

4 all kinds of luck. She's going to need it.

5 CHAIR FAVRE: Can we have laser sights 

6 mounted to this thing? Thank you. I appreciate 

7 the votes of support and confidence that you've 

8 shown in my ability, however misplaced it might be. 

9 Okay, running through our work agenda 

10 for next year. First up is the CACS and -- all 

11 right, so we'll turn this over to Carmela for CACS 

12 to talk about the work agenda.

13 MEMBER BECK: Well, as you can see right 

14 there, we are still working on the assessment of 

15 self conservation practices and we'll determine 

16 whether or not there will be more tasks for us come 

17 '16. Thank you.

18 CHAIR FAVRE: Any questions for 

19 Carmela? Okay, next up is crops. Zea?

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. I guess 

21 you're able to look at what we have. There are 

22 quite a few petitions that are in the wings. 
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1 Anaerobic digestate, I guess was just withdrawn 

2 between posting and this meeting. We had 

3 commissioned a TR on some of the broader issues 

4 about this subject, not just the exact item that was 

5 petitioned, so we will discuss in subcommittee 

6 whether to proceed, and have the TR and take this 

7 up as a project rather than a petition. That is yet 

8 to be determined.

9 There has been a petition for an ash from 

10 manure burning to not to allow a certain form of it 

11 which would mean adding an annotation to 

12 205.602(a). That will be coming forward in the 

13 spring. 

14 There's a petition for squid and squid 

15 byproducts. 

16 Aluminum sulfate is the main petition. 

17 It lies in Livestock and it came to us because I 

18 believe it's fused in bedding and then the bedding 

19 might be composted or -- it ends up on fields 

20 somehow. I haven't read it, sorry. But it ends up 

21 on fields, so after Livestock reviews it, we will 

22 take a look at that one.
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1 And then hypochlorous or electrolyzed 

2 water is on here because as a chlorine material it 

3 affects all three subcommittees.

4 Other projects include contamination 

5 issues in farm inputs which we will need a volunteer 

6 to step forward to keep working on it since Colehour 

7 is leaving the board.

8 Biodegradable/biobased mulch which, as 

9 you all know, the Department asked us to take 

10 another look at that and so we will be doing so next 

11 semester.

12 And it doesn't say this, but there will 

13 still be inert issues to report on at the next 

14 meeting. Hopefully, we'll have a progress report, 

15 some more of the procedures fleshed out. And we are 

16 proposing a discussion document to prohibit -- to 

17 move towards prohibiting NPEs which we know will not 

18 make it through the skill process.

19 Then Sunset 2018 is pretty 

20 self-explanatory there. And then a few things have 

21 been referred back her today which I'm assuming will 

22 be able to be on our work agenda. A few additional 
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1 suggestions for annotation changes for the 

2 committee to look at and things that came up in 

3 discussion. So we'll be taking a look at those and 

4 possibly adding them, requesting them to be added 

5 to our work agenda. So that's it.

6 CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Zea. Next up 

7 is Handling. Tom?

8 MR. CHAPMAN: We have two petitions 

9 before us, one beta-glucan and hypochlorous acid. 

10 In addition to that, we have four other projects, 

11 BPA in packaging and xanthan gum reclassification 

12 of which we requested TR; tocopherols 

13 reclassification and nutrients, vitamins, and 

14 minerals annotation change.

15 We've also requested to the program that 

16 phosphate -- I've done that. Annotation change for 

17 phosphates be added to the work agenda. That's 

18 good. That's been added.

19 In addition to that, there's Sunset 2018 

20 and those substances are listed there and similar 

21 to what Zea mentioned, we will also be in the 

22 subcommittee considering the items discussed 
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1 during the Handling 2017 sunsets for requests to be 

2 added to the work agenda as well.

3 CHAIR FAVRE: Thank you, Tom. For 

4 Livestock, we've got some new petition materials 

5 including aluminum sulfate which is a poultry 

6 litter supplement. That's the one they referred to 

7 earlier. Basically, once it's removed from the 

8 poultry house, it could be composted and put on 

9 fields, so it crosses both of those subcommittee 

10 jurisdictions.

11 Next one is sodium bisulfate and 

12 bentonite acid activated. All three of those are 

13 poultry litter materials.

14 And then we have the lovely and 

15 long-anticipated aquaculture materials which are 

16 currently still housed in Livestock and we'll be 

17 looking at those depending upon when the 

18 aquaculture standards come out. 

19 And then we also have some petitions, or 

20 a petition, I should say, for hypochlorous acid and 

21 then we have annotation changes for lidocaine, 

22 procaine, and the annotation change for 
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1 parasiticide. I should also comment that we've had 

2 a couple that have come up here during the meeting 

3 today which I'm sure that's also true for the other. 

4 I know, at least, there was at least a couple for 

5 Handling and we'll be adding those to our work plan 

6 as we go forward with after discussion with the 

7 Executive Committee.

8 Francis?

9 MEMBER THICKE: Question. The 

10 hypochlorous acid is that like electrolyzed water? 

11 Okay. 

12 CHAIR FAVRE: Miles?

13 MR. McEVOY: Yes, and the program will 

14 be asking the Livestock Subcommittee to take a look 

15 at antibiotic use in day-old chicks. So that will 

16 be coming along in a memo to the board early next 

17 month.

18 CHAIR FAVRE: And just as a reminder, we 

19 need just the Organic Poultry Working Group, 

20 whatever that's going to look like.

21 Calvin for materials, please?

22 MEMBER WALKER: Well, the board members 
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1 who will be here next year, the project's petition, 

2 and TR tracking which is an ongoing project, seed 

3 purity, and excluded method terminology is 

4 scheduled. That's it.

5 CHAIR FAVRE: For policy development, 

6 we'll take back your comments that we've received 

7 during this public comment period and continue to 

8 work on the policy and procedures manual and plan 

9 to bring that back some time next year.

10 Next thing on our agenda is the 

11 presentation of plaques to our outgoing board 

12 members and that will be done by Miles McEvoy.

13 MR. McEVOY: Okay, so I have the honor 

14 of presenting the plaques of appreciation to the 

15 five outgoing members who have served with 

16 distinction over the last five years. 

17 It's really amazing to me that the time 

18 goes by so quickly. It just seems like yesterday 

19 I guess it was in Seattle was the first meeting and 

20 we had great discussions on what, GMOs and 

21 antibiotics and tree fruit production. That went 

22 on for a couple of years. And GMOs continues on. 
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1 Did we do ethylene then? Yes, probably. Was corn 

2 steep liquor still around? Wow, we haven't talked 

3 about that for a while. Maybe we should bring that 

4 one back. 

5 So anyway, it's been my pleasure to work 

6 with all five of you. You've all contributed so 

7 much to this process. Thank you so much in terms 

8 of your public service. I just hate to see you go, 

9 but I know you'll be involved in the ways that you 

10 are in both submitting comments. Maybe we'll see 

11 you at the meetings. Maybe you'll be on the other 

12 side or working in your own communities to advance 

13 organics. So thank you Calvin and Mac and Nick and 

14 Jennifer and Colehour. 

15 I can't believe, Colehour, you're 

16 actually -- wow, it's five years. Amazing. Okay, 

17 so I'm going to present the plaques and thank you 

18 so much for all your service.

19 MEMBER TAYLOR: May I just take a moment 

20 to tell everybody thank you so much. Thank you also 

21 to the Secretary of Agriculture for allowing to 

22 serve in this position as advocate for the public 
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1 for the organic consumer community. 

2 And thank you also organic community for 

3 all of your help and support and to the board members 

4 as well. I can't ever say enough. Thank you. 

5 Thank you so much for the opportunity.

6 MEMBER WALKER: First of all, I would 

7 like to say one of the things that I learned I got 

8 it from watching Comedy Network. It is illegal to 

9 push a moose out of an airplane. 

10 Let me continue. I would like to say 

11 first, Jean, and to the rest of you here, we would 

12 like to -- I would like to give respect to the late 

13 Senator Justin Morrill. He was a Republican from 

14 Vermont and he is the one that established land 

15 grant institutions. And he was the Senator from 

16 here at least 160 years ago. And not only that, 

17 when he discovered that the Ohio State, the Oregon 

18 State, Cornell, LSU and Texas A&M was receiving the 

19 funds, 30 years later he came back. He was still 

20 living and he saw that people of color were not 

21 getting the benefits as he wanted and he passed the 

22 second Morrill Act which gave birth to the 1890 
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1 institutions where Jennifer Taylor and I work. So 

2 we appreciate him for that. And we also thank 

3 Senator Leahy of being the father of organics. 

4 Also, I'd like to give thanks to Frank 

5 Stronach, the founder of Magna Corporation; Dennis 

6 Mills, the CEO of Magna Corporation. They are now 

7 retired. Earnest Freeman and Dr. Owusu Bandele, 

8 who served here in 2000 and Mr. Shane Carmichael. 

9 And going further, I'd like to say I 

10 thank Miles McEvoy for forwarding my application to 

11 the Honorable Secretary Tom Vilsack and my ultimate 

12 appointment on the board; certainly, my wife and my 

13 two sons, Marcus Ruben Walker and Michael David 

14 Walker.

15 Two weeks ago I received a USDA National 

16 Award, but nothing is to compare with the five years 

17 that I've served on this National Organic Standards 

18 Board. I was appointed as a consumer advocate. 

19 Most of the time I stayed in my lane and today I was 

20 all over the place. 

21 Ronald Reagan said that America is that 

22 shining city that sets on a hill. Organics is a 
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1 shining agricultural program that makes up 

2 America's agriculture. To stay on top of the hill, 

3 we must continue to hold fast to the founding 

4 principles of organic principles and practices. 

5 If not, other labels will come forward. 

6 Dr. Jennifer Taylor and I have talked 

7 over the last year and one of the things that we'll 

8 be doing, we'll be looking at establishing the New 

9 World Regenerative Agriculture Group in Florida and 

10 in Louisiana. And we want to mimic it on the GAP 

11 program. We have five star athletes. We have five 

12 star restaurants. We have five star hotels. And 

13 everyone can't be a five star. And we need to stop 

14 the bickering and the fighting because if we 

15 continue to fight, we're going to lose a lot of this 

16 program that we call organics.

17 Martin Luther King gave the story of two 

18 dogs. Let me take this back. The gentleman went 

19 to a dog fight. He put his two dogs in a cage and 

20 on the way to the dog fight, the two dogs got 

21 together and they fought and they fought. And when 

22 it got to the real dog fight, they both got their 
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1 ass whooped. That will have to be deleted, I'm 

2 sorry about that.

3 So we need to be careful how we fight 

4 because we don't want to do anything as we did with 

5 the bigger issues with seed purity, GMO, 

6 hydroponics, and consumer expectations. If we 

7 ignore these, we will be relegated to something that 

8 we don't recognize as organic.

9 In closing, I would like to say that I've 

10 made some tough votes. The consumer advocate 

11 groups that's been very vocal and I may have pissed 

12 off some or everyone since I've been on this board, 

13 but I do also think the GMO issue, you all might have 

14 to look at thresholds and tolerance levels because 

15 big ag. will never go away, whether you want them 

16 to go away or not. Maybe crop insurance or 

17 something has to happen, but if we want to survive 

18 and I can say that because I'm a minority. I'm 61 

19 years old and being a minority, you don't get 

20 everything you want because that's just the way the 

21 system works. 

22 Organics is a minority part of USDA. A 
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1 lot of things we want, but a majority of it we 

2 probably won't get because there are more greater 

3 and more powerful influences. So we've got to work 

4 within that construct. That's what I learned to 

5 do.

6 So in closing, I would like to say that 

7 I'm grateful to have served and delighted to move 

8 on to another page of my journey. We are all 

9 strangers in the land. We are all just passing 

10 through. Thank you very much.

11 MEMBER MARAVELL: It has been an honor 

12 to serve on behalf of producers, to serve the 

13 organic community and it's been a pleasure to work 

14 with board members and all the best to the new board.

15 MR. McEVOY: The next is Colehour. And 

16 now this brings me back. After the Seattle 

17 meeting, I don't know where he was going, but he was 

18 going somewhere that I was going, so I think we drove 

19 to Bellingham and picked up my son and then drove 

20 to Olympia and so that was the start of Colehour and 

21 my relationship of getting to know each other, 

22 spending probably a good five hours in the car 
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1 together. I think he was a little jet lagged still, 

2 so maybe it was NOSB lag is what was happening. But 

3 Colehour, it's been a pleasure and best of luck to 

4 you.

5 MEMBER BONDERA: Well, Calvin, you've 

6 put me in my place, but Aloha to all of you. I'll 

7 try to hurry, but bear with. This is my last time.

8 You know, I grew up on a farm in Oregon. 

9 I already told you all that. And I grew up with ten 

10 siblings milking cows. I do want to comment 

11 because I think Calvin's point was well taken that 

12 organics aside of all of us, I'm the only one on a 

13 farm. So agriculture isn't easy on its own and then 

14 you subreduce it down to organic.

15 And like I said before, my eight sisters 

16 made me understand that minority concept without 

17 anybody ever talking about it that way. 

18 And right now I have a farm. People are 

19 there harvesting coffee, processing my coffee. 

20 We're right now at the peak of my coffee harvest 

21 season and that's what I'll get to do when I go home 

22 is deal with the coffee on the hoshidana which is 
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1 the coffee drying deck and hope that the weather 

2 gets it off before the next round comes which I'm 

3 going to be jumping into fast.

4 I'll tell you historically, you know, 

5 I'm not that old, but I'm not that young. It was 

6 in the 1980s that I did my work as an undergraduate 

7 student with the Northwest Coalition for 

8 Alternatives to Pesticides and in 1991 my name is 

9 on my first little publication which was titled 

10 "What You Don't Know Can Hurt You" in reference to 

11 inert ingredients and pesticides. And in fact, 

12 when I look at that document, I didn't know him and 

13 don't -- whatever, there's Jay Feldman's name with 

14 NCAMP which is now Beyond Pesticides. And I really 

15 recognized then that the environment is so critical 

16 to the agricultural issues that I was contemplating 

17 and looking which in the context of university I 

18 wasn't, but I think it's important.

19 And you know, another example that's 

20 worth sharing is that I moved on to my international 

21 agricultural development career and had a position 

22 with Rodale Institute and I worked as an 
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1 international projects manager. And while I was 

2 there went with Jeff Moyer, a former NOSB member 

3 from Rodale Institute, and now directs that, to 

4 Argentina. And so I think the world is small is my 

5 point. 

6 And that's my next point which is really 

7 that it's so hard for small-scale farmers to pursue 

8 even being certified organic. Farms that are small 

9 scale really have to work together and I think that 

10 that's really where we are at. I said it before in 

11 some comment, but I think it's critical to 

12 recognize.

13 The farm that I grew up on was not 

14 organic. We were organic only because we couldn't 

15 afford pesticides like my mother says. And like my 

16 mother says, everything is organic and really in 

17 some ways she's not wrong. So we need to be 

18 cognizant of that. Because for me, the growth of 

19 the organic industry is vital, but at the same time 

20 it has to be healthy. I'm not an employee of the 

21 USDA. I'm not an employee of a nonprofit 

22 organization. I'm an actual farmer who wants us 
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1 all to work together and look at that bigger 

2 picture. That's why I'm here in this seat is 

3 because the bigger picture I can't ignore and I 

4 think that's so vital for us.

5 At a personal level, that has been a 

6 critical part of this entity that exists. And I 

7 think Jennifer Taylor and Calvin Ruben Walker are 

8 really, for me, have been a consistent basis of 

9 reminding me of the consumer basics. And I think 

10 that we have to be acknowledging of that because 

11 we're all consumers.

12 And I think in terms of learning, for 

13 five years I served on the NOSB and I learned pretty 

14 quickly that I can't waste time focusing on single 

15 opinions, but really I have to focus on working with 

16 one another to seek positive improvement about how 

17 the process can be healthy, rather than isolated 

18 material choices because without a healthy process, 

19 we're not going to be healthy. I think that that's 

20 so critical all around.

21 I think that range of perspectives 

22 though has really helped me balance my behaviors in 
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1 life and I think it's critical, but I'm talking 

2 within the NOSB, but really we're a public advisory 

3 group and it's the public input that I represent and 

4 that we have to make sure we do and that's never been 

5 easy. This isn't about a single company or one 

6 person. It's really about working with the bigger 

7 picture and what is the whole. 

8 And I think, I already said that, but I 

9 think that repetition isn't bad with that because 

10 I think that making day-to-day choices as an organic 

11 farmer, it's really looking at the environmental 

12 impact of those choices, looking at what the 

13 consumers are going to do when I'm selling at my 

14 farmers market every week. I'm thinking about --

15 I'm not thinking about it, I'm hearing from the 

16 consumers how they're making decisions and what 

17 they're doing and I think that keeping up to speed 

18 with that is so important.

19 And I guess I want to mention that 

20 there's some proudness, there has to be, right, that 

21 comes out of this process and for me, it's that 

22 respect at all the different levels, the respect not 
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1 just that I'm able to show, but the respect that I've 

2 been able to receive within the NOSB, between the 

3 NOSB, myself and the rest of the NOSB and the public, 

4 between the NOSB and the NOP. I really think we 

5 have to work together to find that right answer.

6 Coming in, it was really Barry Flamm 

7 that really helped me understand that the 

8 environmental component was so critical and Barry 

9 was able to make me recognize that we are looking 

10 to a higher goal and a broader picture to uphold OFPA 

11 and to carry out our responsibilities. And I think 

12 that that was vital and at the same time what really 

13 worked for me that I found very critical as an 

14 incoming NOSB member, I didn't know what was going 

15 on or what to do or how and having a mentor I did 

16 not know what to do, like I already said, but I was 

17 so happy that Jay Feldman stepped forward and served 

18 that role as a mentor for me because logistically 

19 otherwise I was just lost in all of the confusion 

20 that I think we're all there with. 

21 And I think my goal and role in life 

22 isn't -- we're all here and we all serve together 
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1 -- but I'm not striking out to make friends or allies 

2 to do things. Instead, what I'm looking for other 

3 perspectives outside of my tunnel as a producer, as 

4 a farmer. And within that Nick Maravell really has 

5 reassured me that it's not only capable and viable 

6 and possible, but I'm glad that he's been side by 

7 side with me the whole time as another producer. 

8 That's been a vital component. But I have to say 

9 it's been -- people such as specifically Liana 

10 Hoodes. She was with NOC, National Organic 

11 Coalition; yes, Mark Kastel of Cornucopia; Lisa 

12 Bunin of the Center for Food Safety; Jay Feldman and 

13 Terry Shistar of Beyond Pesticides; and Urvashi 

14 Rangan of Consumer Reports, who really have been 

15 there through my whole tenure to really help me n 

16 and analyze and consider actually perspectives that 

17 aren't mine at all. 

18 I don't subscribes to things 

19 like Consumer Reports or things like that, but to 

20 get the other perspectives has been for me vital. 

21 So I think I'm trying to point out what I see as the 

22 critical component which is you can work within the 
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1 NOSB and I can work with NOSB to NOP, but I've got 

2 to work with people that are around me, too.

3 What I'm working towards is not to 

4 maintain the status quo because that's the opposite 

5 of what I understood my role to be. It's to seek 

6 continuous improvement. And I think that that's 

7 really important.

8 And before I do my final thank yous, 

9 there's a few things that I think are worth sharing 

10 which is sadness regarding how the 2013 NOP decision 

11 on the sunset voting really for me at this meeting, 

12 which is my last meeting, if the structure voting 

13 hadn't changed, I would feel very, very, very 

14 different than I do at this point in time, the fact 

15 that the voting has been flipped around from what 

16 it was which has been confusing even there at this 

17 meeting for us, has really left me sad to watch a 

18 number of items and I didn't count, but quite a 

19 number of items remain on the list that would have 

20 been removed in the previous system. So if we count 

21 it that way rather than count how many were still 

22 removed, I think it's important.
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1 I do not think the individuals, Michelle 

2 Arsenault, Lisa Brines, Emily Brown Rosen, or Miles 

3 McEvoy are doing anything except amazing jobs and 

4 I think that what we have to think about is -- and 

5 if you read, like we talked about briefly, I think 

6 Nick asked the question also, we should have hired 

7 an executive director that's the spokesperson, as 

8 the liaison between the NOSB and NOP for 

9 effectiveness and functionality. And Liana Hoodes 

10 handed around a sheet of paper that says something 

11 along those lines and I've agreed from day one, but 

12 I think we also need like it was brought up today, 

13 a staff scientist, a staff lawyer to functionally 

14 operate. 

15 I really want to thank my direct family, 

16 my wife, who came to one meeting, my children who 

17 never encouraged me, but supported me, my personal 

18 friends. I mean I've got to tell you it's not true 

19 of all of us, but some others, too, I'm here to not 

20 make money as a farmer. I'm here to do this 

21 instead. And I think that that's critical. I 

22 think the present NOSB members', past NOSB members' 
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1 willingness to work together, respecting my input, 

2 recognizing that we have to work together is vital. 

3 I'm packing up my bags. I'm going back 

4 to my farm. I honestly hope that somebody can be 

5 convinced to represent the NOSB in a small farmer 

6 position sitting here. Since day one, it hasn't 

7 been easy. 

8 And I have a few final questions I'll 

9 ask, but before I do that I'll respond to something 

10 Miles said because I think he hit the head right on 

11 the nail when he added that extra commentary because 

12 our first interaction wasn't what he said. When he 

13 called me up to accept me on to the NOSB was our first 

14 interaction, and in that call he said something that 

15 I can't quote, I don't remember, but it was 

16 critical. He's like are you really sure you can do 

17 this basically? Like can you leave the farm and do 

18 this? And I think that's so true because it's like 

19 yes, I can do it. But what did I give up and I think 

20 that that's really -- I'm always called the question 

21 person since I've been a little kid. I have lots 

22 of sisters, but I'm always the question person. 
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1 But I think that, you know, I have a few questions 

2 that you all can resonate on or take with you and 

3 I'm done with this process, right?

4 One question is has it been clear to the 

5 NOP when switches between references have been made 

6 such as from Off Putt or Robert's Rules to FACA to 

7 justify decisions that even at this meeting really 

8 didn't settle for me as a volunteer? Dismissals 

9 simply by one interpretation doesn't feel like 

10 we're all on the same page and following the same 

11 rules. It feels like it's a declaration of 

12 interpretation which could be interpreted 

13 differently from the exact same reading from an 

14 exact same person and that doesn't leave me feeling 

15 like we're all together. And I think that's a 

16 question of concern and suitability and I think it's 

17 worth raising.

18 And I think you know, I think that a big 

19 thing in terms of the NOP feeling that their 

20 decisions about process of dismissal of concerns, 

21 when I've raised concerns, when concerns have been 

22 put forth in terms of NOSB votes or representation 
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1 by who is our elected leaders, recognizing that they 

2 were elected by a previous NOSB board, not by the 

3 present one. And in some cases that makes a much 

4 bigger difference than others, because a lot of 

5 people change like this upcoming people. There's 

6 going to be six new people. We need to really 

7 reflect and review and respond directly or my point 

8 is do we need to respond and reflect and review to 

9 the concerns raised rather than just expect them to 

10 be dealt with internally when they're raised as 

11 questions?

12 I'm done and I'm sorry for carrying on. 

13 I'm done in a moment here. I really think that one 

14 of the questions I raised that really wasn't ever 

15 addressed or dealt with was everybody was -- the new 

16 people were all brought to D.C. to be trained, and 

17 we, the NOSB, were separated and divided and from 

18 my perspective that's not the way to be together. 

19 That's the opposite. And I feel like the net 

20 benefit is divide and conquer, rather than work 

21 together harmoniously.

22 You know, I just ask everybody and like 
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1 I said, think about it and reflect on it, I hope that 

2 giving up a significant portion of my family income 

3 and raising my children, I hope that it was 

4 worthwhile for the NOSB and for everybody that I was 

5 here to provide another perspective because I 

6 really want organic to work for all of us and I 

7 really hope that it can and will and I applaud 

8 everybody's efforts to do so. So Aloha.

9 MEMBER STONE: Just a couple of 

10 thoughts. What a privilege it's been to work with 

11 a group of people like this and the broader 

12 audience. The time does go fast. It's kind of 

13 like when you're raising kids. The committee 

14 meetings seem to go on forever, but the years just 

15 clip off like that. 

16 I was a babe in the woods when I got to 

17 Seattle and thankfully Katrina Heinze was sitting 

18 next to me. She was very patient with me and she 

19 didn't tell me what to do, but she gave me some 

20 guidance to help understand what was happening 

21 around.

22 The caliber of the conversation, the 
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1 complexity of the conversation, I grew to learn that 

2 there is no black and white. We have to vote yes 

3 or no which sounds very black and white but there's 

4 always losers. There's always winners. And like 

5 I said earlier, it's just really, really hard on 

6 this side of the microphone when you know that it's 

7 not all good, no matter what you do.

8 I really want to give a thanks to the 

9 certifiers that helped me. I hope I've represented 

10 them in an honorable.

11 It was an honor to be chair, Jean, Tracy. 

12 It's a pretty small club of us that can say we were 

13 chair of this group and I appreciate the confidence 

14 that the fellow board members showed in me.

15 But Harold, when we voted on tree fruit, 

16 leading up to that vote, I remember at breakfast 

17 that morning, Jean and Harold and I were eating 

18 breakfast and they knew they were going to vote 

19 differently on that. They knew what a difficult 

20 vote that was going to be. But I was never more 

21 proud of a group of people. When we got through 

22 that vote, that was a tough one. But I think it 
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1 created a bond that helped us since then to do good 

2 work because we knew how tough it was to do good work 

3 that day.

4 A shout out to the NOP, Miles, Emily, 

5 Lisa, you all do great work, but it pales in 

6 comparison to what Michelle does for us.

7 So truthfully, Miles, you've got the big 

8 bull's eye right there on your chest, but nobody 

9 cares about this more than Miles. And you've seen 

10 it from its infancy and just appreciate the stepping 

11 up that you've done and the morale of your staff and 

12 everybody around. It's just been tremendous to 

13 work with the NOP. There's nobody there that 

14 doesn't get up early or stay late to do what they've 

15 got to do.

16 In the words of Chuck Ross earlier this 

17 week, it's easy to focus on our differences rather 

18 than start at the beginning of where we work 

19 together. So hopefully we can continue that. At 

20 times, it felt like the beating will stop when the 

21 morale improves kind of a conversation, so 

22 hopefully we can -- we can kind of learn from that 
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1 and go forward. And frankly, I think this Consumer 

2 Report report that Urvashi and Charlotte have that 

3 shows where they -- they want to show how great 

4 organic is and they can help us make it better, but 

5 their tone changed at this meeting and I just 

6 appreciate that.

7 So no matter what I was able to 

8 contribute as an individual, I feel like I gained 

9 much more as an individual, so I just really 

10 appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.

11 CHAIR FAVRE: I'd like just to say I'm 

12 humbled by the words of wisdom of our outgoing board 

13 members and hope that I conduct myself with the same 

14 grace that they've all shown on this board and their 

15 words have reminded me about the great opportunity 

16 that I personally have had to work with them. And 

17 I personally want to tell you how much I appreciate 

18 what you've done and we'll be sad to see you go. 

19 Thank you.

20 I just want to say in closing remarks 

21 that I'm honored and humbled myself by the support 

22 you guys have shown by electing me chair. I've got 
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1 some giant shoes to fill with Jean and Mack having 

2 had these positions before me. 

3 I'm really proud of the work we've done 

4 this year. It has been a tough, brutal year to get 

5 through with these sunset materials. But it is 

6 sort of a bond forged in fire. And while I'm really 

7 glad we're through it, I'm looking forward to moving 

8 on for next year. 

9 And with that, I'd like to close this 

10 meeting from my portion and turn it over to Miles.

11 MR. McEVOY: Okay, this has been a 

12 really great meeting, really appreciate all the 

13 public input, all the work from the board, the 

14 completion of 2017 sunset review. So I probably 

15 wear this shirt in solidarity with the board, but 

16 know that the AMS and the National Organic Program 

17 have a lot of work to do to actually implement the 

18 work of your sun review process. So from here we 

19 go forward with a Federal Register notice to renew 

20 the substances that we're not recommended for 

21 removal and we move forward with the proposed rule 

22 to remove those substances that are recommended for 
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1 removal, get additional public comments and then 

2 issue a final rule to remove those substances from 

3 the national list based on your recommendations.

4 So I'll probably wear this shirt, but 

5 remember that we still have a lot of work to do and 

6 we look forward to supporting the board's work in 

7 the future with your new work agenda and seeing 

8 everybody in Washington, D.C. in late April. So 

9 with that, the Fall 2015 meeting is closed have a 

10 great rest of the week.

11 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

12 went off the record at 4:23 p.m.)

13 

14 

15