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NOMINATIONS

GOVERNMENT

Storage

HEARING

BEFORE THE

ru

N COMMITTEE ON

30R AND PUBLIC WELFARE

E UNITED STATES SENATE

NINETIETH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

WILLIAM H. CROOK AND WILLIAM P. BELLY, JR., TO BE

ASSISTANT DIRECTORS OF THE OFFICE OF ECONOMIC

OPPORTUNITY

MARCH 6, 1967

Printed for the use of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare

MO-SAS 

SIAMit:tLt LtiiKAKIES

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

76-435 WASHINGTON: 1967
COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE

LISTER HILL, Alabama, Chairman

WAYNE MORSE, Oregon

RALPH YARBOROUGH, Texas

JOSEPH S. CLARK, Pennsylvania

JENNINGS RANDOLPH, West Virginia

HARRISON A. WILLIAMS. JR., New Jersey

CLAIBORNE PELL, Rhode Island

EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts

GAYLORD NELSON, Wisconsin

ROBERT F. KENNEDY, New York

STEWART E. MCCLURE, Chief Clerk

JOHN S. FORSYTHE, General Counsel

EUGENE MITTELMAN, Minority Counsel

JACOB K. JAVITS, New York

WINSTON L. PROUTY, Vermont

PETER H. DOMINICK, Colorado

GEORGE MURPHY, California

PAUL J. FANNIN, Arizona

ROBERT P. GRIFFIN, Michigan
NOMINATIONS

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met at 11:30 a.m., pursuant to call, in room 4230,

New Senate Office Building, Senator Lister Hill, chairman of the committee, presiding.

Present: Senators Hill, chairman (presiding), Clark, Pell, Kennedy of Massachusetts, Nelson, Prouty, Dominick, Murphy, and Fannin. Committee staff members present: Stewart E. McClure, chief clerk; John S. Forsythe, general counsel; and Roy Millenson, minority clerk. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will kindly come to order. Mr William H. Crook, come forward please, and just have a seat right there, please, sir.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM H. CROOK, A NOMINEE TO BE AN

ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

Mr. CROOK. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have you here. We have two nominations to be Assistant Directors of the Office of Economic Opportunity.

Mr. CROOK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give us a statement as to your quali- fications for this position?

Mr. CROOK. I am pleased and proud to have been nominated by the President to serve as Director of Volunteers in Service to An erica.

In the weeks since my arrival in Washington—and before that time,

while serving as Regional Director of 0E0 in the Southwest region—

I have had many opportunities to observe at first hand the real dedication of these Americans who have given a year of their lives to live

and work among the poor.

These VISTA volunteers live in poverty. And, they live at poverty's level, sharing the modest homes and the meager hopes of those

they serve. To the poor they are surety for the intentions of middleclass America: a living symbol that the rest of America does care about

poverty; that the rest of America is determined to wipe out forever the

conditions on which it thrives.

These are truly dedicated Americans. It is both a pleasure and a

privilege to be associated with them and to be able to help them in

their vital work.

As some of you may know, I have been involved in the war on

poverty almost since its inception. My experience has convinced me

that money alone won't win this war. It will take people to do the
2 NOMINATIONS

job; people with a deep conviction that something can and should be

done about poverty; people with a firm determination to do something

about poverty themselves; people—in short—like VISTA volunteers.

That is why I have developed so much personal enthusiasm for

VISTA and for its mission. For I really don't see VISTA as a Federal

program or a Federal agency. I see it as an idea, the most exciting

idea in the entire war on poverty. I see it, not as an organization, but

as a movement—a movement that can change the face and future of

America.

VISTA is the natural outlet for the active concern of America for the

plight of its least privileged citizens. It is the natural channel for the

kills, energies, and individual resourcefulness of all Americans who

want to do something about poverty.

By June, there will be 4,250 VISTA volunteers and more than 2,000

summer associates (college students who will devote their summers

to VISTA) fighting poverty at the grassroots level. By that time

VISTA's new Citizens Volunteer Corps will have fielded a small army

of more than 50,000 part-time volunteers to work side by side with

the full-time VISTA volunteers in an all-out effort to wipe out poverty

in their own communities. By the end of the year this Corps will

grow to 100,000. Its potential is limitless.

In many rural areas VISTA volunteers have been responsible for

revitalizing entire communities. In urban settings, whole neighborhoods have already come awake to their needs and to their ability

to meet those needs under the gadfly prodding of the VISTA volunteer.

And, that is the volunteer's job: to leave the community he is serving

willing and able to help itself; to focus and channel the active concern

of the private citizens on the problems of poverty in their own community; to bridge the gap between those who have the capacity to

help and those who so desperately need it. 'When that bridge is built,

when the community is awake to its needs and to its powers, the

volunteer's job is done.

As I mentioned, I have been associated with the war on poverty

almost since its inception, most recently as the southwestern regional

director for all 0E0 programs.

But that was not the beginning of my interest in the misfortunes

of our fellow men. I have been an active participant in the work of the

Baptist Foreign Mission Board. In 1958, I personally conducted an

extensive inspection tour of refugee centers in Austria, Italy, and

Germany. I have participated in a variety of civil rights activities

including the late President Kennedy's White House Conference on

Civil Rights.

As President of San Marcos Academy I worked, of course, extensively with young people and received, I believe, rather broad experience in administration. Immeasurable administrative experience

was also gained in my 16-month tour of duty as 0E0 regional director.

Managing a five-State area with more than a hundred local community action agencies, and a regional staff of 130, gave me numerous lessons in the administration of war on poverty efforts.

I bring to the position for which I have been nominated a tremendous personal enthusiasm for the VISTA idea, a sense of urgency

about the need to do something about poverty now, and a sense of

caution about the imperative need to insure maximum efficiency in

the allocation of the limited resources available to the war on poverty.
NOMINATIONS 3

My biographical data sheet has been submitted.

(The biographical data sheet follows)

BIOGRAPHICAL DATA

1. Personal Information: Name: William H. Crook. Marriage: Eleanor Butt, daughter of Mr. and Mrs. H. E. Butt of Corpus Christi. Children: Bill Crook,

Jr.; Mary Elizabeth; Noel Eileen.

2. Birth: Momence, Illinois, 1925.

3. Education: Baylor University, A.B., 1949; Graduate work, University of Edinburgh, Scotland, 1949-50; Southwestern Theological Seminary, B.D., 1952; Th. D., 1954.

4. Military Service: Two and one-half years, Air Force, Engineer-Gunner on a

B-24.

5. Positions: Present; Acting Director, VISTA, Office of Economic Opportunity,

Executive Office of the President. Previous; Director, Southwest Region-1965-

66, Office of Economic Opportunity (Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico); President of San Marcos Academy, San Marcos, Texas-1960-65 (San

Marcos Academy is a prep school which attracts students from throughout the free world. At SMA he instituted an Essential Learning Program which aroused widespread interest among educators, and founded a How to Study Course which

won recognition from the Texas Education Agency).

6. Experience and Service: Educational; President, San Marcos Academy;

Who's Who in American Education; Southern Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools; The Southern Association of Independent Schools; The Texas Association of Independent Schools; Texas Education Agency; Vice President,

Texas Baptist School Administrators; Past Member, Texas Student Advisory

Committee; Past Director-at-large, Baylor University, Ex-Students' Association;

Author of articles on elementary and secondary education in private schools,

A Plea for Reappraisal and Inauguration Address; Made innovations in curriculum

which resulted in the San Marcos Academy Essential Learning Program, now being

studied by school systems in several states; Architect of How to Study courses,

recognized by the Texas Education Agency and now being studied by other school

systems of Texas; Tour and study of thirteen of the nation's leading preparatory

schools, summer of 1961.

Civic; Past President, San Marcos Chamber of Commerce; Member, San

Marcos Industrial Board; Member, San Marcos City Planning Commission;

Member, Texas State Guard Reserve, Lieutenant Colonel.

Denominational: Present; Member, Southern Baptist Foreign Mission Board,

Richmond, Virginia; Member, Latin-American Committee, Southern Baptist

Foreign Mission Board, Richmond, Virginia; Previous; President, District 2,

Baptist Convention; Member, Appropriations Committee, Texas Baptist Convention; Chairman, Appropriations Committee, Baptist Convention Member,

State Executive Board, Baptist General Convention of Texas; Member, Christian

Life Commission, General Convention of Texas.

Travel: Tour of England, Scotland, Europe, 1949; Alaska, 1949; Speaking tour

of Orient, three months, 1950; Ireland, Scotland, England, 1958; Tour of Refugee

Centers, Austria, Italy, Germany, 1958; Speaking tour, Hawaii, 1961; Canada;

Mexico, 1952, 1962; Observer, Middle Level Manpower Conference, Puerto Rico,

1962.

Speaking Activities: Speaking opportunities have been wide and varied; Southern

Baptist Convention, Miami, Florida; Texas Press Association; National Business

Women's Association; Texas Bankers' Association; Texas Public Relations

Conference; Oklahoma Press Association; Texas Conference on Environmental

Crises; Southwest Regional Parks & Recreation Association; Texas AFL-CIO

Conference; Commencement—Quachita College (Arkansas); Business Week Conference, Texas Christian University, etc.

State Assignments: Member, City Planning Commission, San Marcos, Texas;

Member, Texas Student Advisory Committee; Vice-President, Board of Trustees,

East Texas College; Director-at-large, Baylor University Ex-Students' Association; President, Chamber of Commerce, San Marcos, Texas; Member, Federal

Executive Board.

Presidential Assignments: President Kennedy: Observer, Middle Level Manpower Conference, Puerto Rico; President Kennedy: White House Conference

on Civil Rights; President Johnson: Consultant, Economic Opportunity Office;

President Johnson: Director, Southwest Region, Office of Economic Opportunity.

•
4 NOMINATIONS

The CHAIRMAN. I may say I have a letter here from a member

of our committee, Senator Yarborough, who says:

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: I greatly regret that I cannot be present Monday,

March 6th, to personally convey to the Committee my very high estimation of

Mr. William Crook. Mr. Crook has served as Regional Director of the Office of

Economic Opportunity for the Southwest with offices at Austin, Texas, and has

done a magnificent job under the difficult circumstances that have surrounded the

birth of the War on Poverty. His wisdom and integrity have been unquestioned

and his performance has won high praise from all those who share his high purposes

and those of the Office of Economic Opportunity. I am sure the nation will

benefit from the broader services his new position will allow him to make to the

nation. I unqualifiedly support his confirmation.

With best wishes,

Sincerely yours,

RALPH W. YARBOROUGH.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions, gentlemen?

Senator MURPHY. I have a question.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Murphy.

Senator MURPHY. Have you taken part in any political activities

while you were serving in the VISTA program and the Job Corps?

Mr. CROOK. No, Senator I have not.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?

Senator FANNIN. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead, Senator.

Senator FANNIN. Mr. Crook, have you worked with the Indian

people in any of your programing?

Mr. CROOK. Yes, sir; in Texas, in the Alabama Quachita Tribe, in

Oklahoma, in various tribes, and in New Mexico.

Senator FANNIN. In New Mexico?

Mr. CROOK. Yes, sir.

Senator FANNIN. Don't you feel that there is a great deal more

that we could do than the 0E0 program, the overall program, as well

as the VISTA, in that relationship to our Indian people?

Mr. CROOK. I do feel that there is more that we can do.

Senator FANNIN. Would it be your recommendation and your

desires to see that more is done, if you have this new position?

Mr. CROOK. It will. Forty percent of the VISTA volunteers who

are assigned to rural work, which includes migrant and Indian activity. We have a great many VISTA's working with on-reservation

Indians. This is a matter of considerable concern, because I have

been in the Southwest and have seen the plight of the Indian. I can

assure you that I will be very interested in this.

Senator FANNIN. Well, I am very pleased that you will be, and.

I would like to state that I have talked to some of the VISTA workers that have worked on the reservations, and they have told me

about the great need that they have not been able to take care of

in their present activities, so I hope that it will be expanded.

Mr. CROOK. I assure you it will, sir.

Senator FANNIN. Thank you, sir.

Senator PROUTY. Mr. Crook, I don't find it in the biographical

information sheet, but, I understand you were once connected with

a Job Corps camp?

Mr. CROOK. Senator, in the early days of converting the Camp

Gary installation to a Job Corps camp, I was asked to serve as a

liaison between the camp and the community. I have never been

employed by the Job Corps.
NOMINATIONS 5

Senator PROUTY. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator?

Senator DOMINICK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Crook, I am not sure that this has anything to do, necessarily, with your qualifications, but were you Acting Director when it was reported that some of the -VISTA personnel were picketing the White

House down here in Washington?

Mr. CROOK. No, sir; I was not.

Senator DOMINICK. What is your feeling with political activity on

the part of the VISTA volunteers?

Mr. CROOK. Well, as you know, Senator, VISTA volunteers have

been placed under the Hatch Act. We have written all volunteers to

stress the fact that they must adhere completely to that Act, in letter

and in spirit. I can assure you that one of our objectives is to see

that the VISTA program remains apolitical.

Senator DOMINICK. Mr. Crook, I happen to be quite sympathetic

with the VISTA program, I think it has been trying to do a pretty

good job, by and large, and perhaps accomplishing it. But I have

been concerned, fron. time to time, on the overall costs of training of

volunteers. Do you happen to know what this comes down to, at

the present moment?

Mr. CROOK. The costs range from $950 down to $550, depending

on the particular skill that they are being trained in. We are moving,

Senator, away from using a great number of training contracts toward establishing in seven training centers to coincide with our

seven ORO regions.

We believe this move, plus more on the job training will continue

to bring those costs down. We would like to see them brought down

to $550 and $600.

Senator DOMINICK. If I may, I would like to just follow this up a

little bit. We had a training school in my own State at Monte Vista,

and one of the things that I noticed in this particular program was

that the people who were being trained in Colorado were not going to

be used in the Rocky Mountain area, by and large; they were being

sent back to other areas, maybe the eastern portion of the United

States, or the deep south, or something of this kind.

Is there any program to try and correlate the cultural background

of the VISTA volunteers with the area that they are going to work

in?

Mr. CROOK. Yes, sir; in most cases, we believe that regionalization

will do just this. However, may I cite to you, for instance, mental

health training? In this case, volunteers would not necessarily be

kept within the region in which they are trained. In most cases,

however, we believe that regionalization will keep the volunteers pretty

much within a five to 10 State area.

Senator DOMINICK. Now what is the major scope, then, of the

VISTA program? I did not realize that we were very much involved

in the mental health business. I thought we were largely in the rural

area.

Mr. CROOK. No, sir; 50 percent of our trainees are assigned to

urban areas. Forty percent are assigned to rural areas, and to migrant

and Indian centers. Five percent are assigned to mental health

projects, and 5 percent to Job Corps centers.

Senator DOMINICK. SO there is an interrelationship between VISTA

and the Job Corps, then.
6 NOMINATIONS

Mr. CROOK. Yes, sir; a supportive one.

Senator DOMINICK. Are they sent to the Job Corps centers at the

request of the Director of the Job Corps?

Mr. CROOK. Yes, sir, and at the request of the director of the local

Job Corps camp. They live with the Job Corps men, and serve as

counselors and in any number of different functions.

Senator MURPHY. They become part of the staff, you might say?

Mr. CROOK. No, sir, they maintain their independence. They do

not work for the Job Corps camp itself. They identify more with the

corpsmen in the needs that the corpsmen have, and they represent the

corpsmen to the staff. They are not looked upon as staff by the

corpsmen.

Senator PROUTY. Do they receive any compensation from the

Job Corps?

Mr. CROOK. NO, sir.

Senator PROUTY. No, they receive food and lodging.

Mr. CROOK. They are given food and lodging, and in some cases,

transportation, if they need to go to town with a group of the boys.

Senator PROUTY. Yes.

Mr. CROOK. But they are under the same restrictions and requirements as all other volunteers.

Senator DOMINICK. Another thing that somewhat concerned me

in this group of volunteers that I was reviewing was the fact that a

great many of them were in the middle of their college careers, and

had left the college to do this work. Is this a pattern in the VISTA

program?

Mr. CROOK. Senator Dominick, we discourage their leaving college.

In some cases, this is true, but as we counsel with them, we suggest

that they finish their college, and then give a year of service to VISTA.

Senator DOMINICK. Those who have left college to become volunteers, do you know whether or not they have gone back to complete

their course when they are through?

Mr. CROOK. I am told, though I can't answer this with certainty,

I am told the majority of them do. Many of them stay in self-helping

agencies. Some of them reenlist for an additional year. Some 30

percent of our volunteers are now reenlisting for an additional year.

Senator DOMINICK. But you don't have any statistics on this

educational problem?

Mr. CROOK. No, sir, but I will be happy to make such statistics

available to you.

Senator DOMINICK. I think that might be helpful, Mr. Chairman,

if you don't mind.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, sir. You will make that available to us,

sir?

Mr. CROOK. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Good. Any other questions?

(The document referred to was subsequently supplied for the

record and follows:)

Hon. LISTER HILL,

U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR SENATOR HILL: Thank you for your kindness and courtesy extended to

me yesterday at the Executive Session of the Senate Labor and Public Welfare

Committee.

OFFICE OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY,

Washington, D.C., March 7, 1967.
NOMINATIONS 7

An important question raised by the Committee concerned the percentage

of VISTA. Volunteers who leave college before graduation, but who return to

their educations upon completion of VISTA service.

Approximately 75% of all VISTA Volunteers have attended college; of these,

47% have not completed their work for an undergraduate degree at the time

they enter VISTA. However, upon completion of VISTA service, 72% of those

who left college return to finish their studies. Of those who do not return to

college, the majority either enter military service or acquire positions in fields

related to their VISTA experience.

Your continued interest, support, and guidance on behalf of the VISTA program

is deeply appreciated. I welcome the opportunity to work with you and hope

that you will feel free to call upon me at any time.

Sincerely,

Senator PELL. Mr. Chairman.

Senator CLARK. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Clark.

Senator CLARK. Mr. Crook, can you fill us in a little bit on the distribution of responsibility among the Assistant Directors? I note that

Mr. KELLY is up to be an Assistant Director. I believe there is also

Mr. Berry who is an Assistant Director.

Mr. CROOK. Yes, sir.

Senator CLARK. And how has Mr. Shriver divided the responsibility between you three? Are you assigned to particular fields?

Mr. CROOK. Specifically, we are each assigned to a division. I

am responsible for VISTA; Mr. Kelly for Job Corps; Mr. Berry for

Community Action. We also form an advisory group, and meet with

Mr. Shriver on all major issues that pertain to 0E0.

Senator CLARK. Ara those the programs for which 0E0 has administrative responsibility?

Mr. CROOK. Yes, sir.

Senator CLARK. And all the other poverty programs are either

under HEW or in Labor?

Mr. CROOK. Yes, sir.

WILLIAM H. CROOK,

Acting Director, VISTA.

Senator CLARK. So that in effect, you are an administrator.

Mr. CROOK. Yes, sir.

Senator CLARK. Thank you.

Senator PROUTY. Excuse me. Just two or three questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Prouty.

Senator PROUTY. First are any of the VISTA personnel active in

any of the conservation camps that are operated by the Department

of Agriculture?

Mr. CROOK. Senator, yes, they are.

I cannot give the short numbers. They are also active in urban

centers. I am sure Mr. Kelly could answer better than I, as to the

exact number in conservation camps are using them. I believe

they are.

Senator PROUTY. Thank you. What will your salary be?

Mr. CROOK. I am sure it has been determined, but I have not

inquired. I would say it is in excess of $26,000. The exact figure,

I am sorry, I do not know.

Senator PROUTY. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions? Senator Pell.

Senator PELL. I have had a working relationship with Mr. Crook

and found him able, competent, and intelligent, and I am delighted

he is going into this job.

76-435-67-2
8 NOMINATIONS

I have one question, and that is, are you acquainted with any plans

for developing these old-age centers where people can sit and be cool

in the summer and warm in the winter?

Which would seem to me an ideal occupation for VISTA volunteers.

Does that come under you?

Mr. CROOK. I am hoping that part of that responsibility will come

under VISTA. It has not been spelled out clearly to date.

Senator CLARK. Will the Senator yield?

Senator PELL. Yes.

Senator CLARK. The Senator will recall in the legislation last year

when we provided a directorship with a special responsibility of the

program for the elderly. That responsibility has not yet been filled,

but I assume that the problems of the elderly poor will come largely

under the supervision of the fourth Assistant Director.

Is that not correct, Mr. Crook?

Mr. CROOK. The problems will come largely under his supervision,

but VISTA will give supportive services as in the case of Job Corps

and community action.

Senator PELL. Right. In other words, you will provide the manpower but the fourth Assistant Director will be the one who administers it.

Mr. CROOK. If we are requested to do so, we will be delighted to

do that.

Senator PELL. Thank you.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. Any further questions, Gentlemen?

Doctor, I want to thank you very much.

Mr. CROOK. Thank you very much, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kelly, will you give us a brief summation of

your qualifications to be Assistant Director of the Office of Economic

Opportunity?

STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM P. KELLY, JR., A NOMINEE TO BE

AN ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

Mr. KELLY. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I joined the President's Task Force on the War on Poverty in May

of 1964. At that time, I was given the assignment of operating the

central administrator for management office of the task force.

Once the program had been authorized, and we had received an

appropriation, I was appointed an Assistant Director for Management

and Administration within the 0E0. I have held that post ever since.

With the exception of a 3-month period in 1965-66, when I was Acting

Director of the community action program in the absence of Mr. Theodor Berry, who had undergone major surgery, and was absent from

the Office for a period of about 3 months.

Prior to my joining the Office of Economic Opportunity, I had

served in the Peace Corps as a staff member here in Washington. I

am what I suppose you might say a career civil servant. I began

working for the Government in 1951, the Department of the Army.

I worked for the Air Force, NASA, the Peace Corps, and 0E0.

The CHAIRMAN. With the Air Force out at Wright-Patterson Air

Force Base.

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.
NOMINATIONS 9

The CHAIRMAN. How long were you out there, sir?

Mr. KELLY. I was out there 7 years.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your job there, sir?

Mr. KELLY. I started out as a journeyman buyer in procurement

and advanced to the position of being a branch chief there.

The CHAIRMAN. In 1961, you became Director for Contracts for

the Peace Corps?

Mr. KELLY. That is right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And one of the first administrators in the Peace

Corps agency.

Mr. KELLY. That is right, Mr. Chairman. I joined the Peace

Corps staff in March of 1961, shortly after the Executive order that

created the Peace Corps.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions, gentlemen?

Senator PROUTY. Mr. Kelly, I have quite a number of questions

here, but I am not going to ask them all, because I think some of them

might be inappropriate, but there are two or three that I would like

to ask at this time.

Do you feel that the Job Corps is successfully placing Job Corps

graduates in the vocations for which they are trained?

Mr. KELLY. I think, Mr. Chairman, and Senator Prouty, for a

period of time that we did not have the kind of information that gave

us a clear-cut picture as to what we were doing. As of the first of

March of this year, we have instituted within the Job Corps a data

system that has begun now to produce some results ia terms of

placement.

For instance, we know now that at the end of 1966, there were

56,219 young men and women who had gone through the Job Corps.

I say gone through the Job Corps; they had been in it from anywhere

from 1 day to 18 months; 7,713 had departed so recently that the

data as to the disposition of these people is not yet available in terms

of our system.

Of the remaining 48,506 Job Corps, it is found that 25,740 of them

found jobs, 4,612 of them returned to school, and 3,458 entered the

military. There are 14,965 that were either unemployed or not in

the labor force, because of marriage or other causes.

Senator NELSON. What was that last figure?

Mr. KELLY. 14,965. Out of 56,000.

Senator PROUTY. I raised that question because a survey, conducted

by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, I believe, indicated that only 28

percent of those surveyed were working in jobs for which they were

trained.

Mr. KELLY. Well, Senator Prouty, may I comment on that?

And Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Please do.

Mr. KELLY. That sample that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce

used is, in my judgment, a very restricted sample. I think they were

again talking about having interviewed or contacted about 196 people.

That is the number that sticks in my mind, and it strikes me that to

draw those kinds of conclusions from that restricted a sample, I have

some question about the validity of that poll.

Now I have not seen the working papers on them yet. I have asked

for it.
10 NOMINATIONS

Senator PROUTY. I, of course, have not seen them either, but the

survey did relate, I believe, only to those who had actually graduated.

Mr. KELLY. May I comment on graduations?

One of the things that is interesting about the Job Corps is that

we have any number of young men that come into this program, and

their basic objective in life is to get into the military service. There

are any number of them that say, I want to get into the Marine

Corps, or the paratroops, the Air Force and they are unable to pass

the qualifying examination that gets you into the service, and they

come to us, and they may begin their basic education program, and

begin a vocational track, and they get to the point where they pick

up sufficient reading ability, and sufficient ability in mathematics,

so that they can take the examination, let us say, for the Marine

Corps or for the paratroopers and pass it.

At that point in time, they terminate, because from their point of

view, they have placed themselves in the kind of occupation that was

the thing they wanted to do in the first place; so that we have always

had a little bit of difficulty in terms of defining this whole business of

what is a graduate and what is not a graduate.

The youngster may not have completed his vocational track, but in

terms of getting into the armed forces, he has gotten sufficient basic

education so that he can pass the test.

Senator PROUTY. I am quoting from a document or a release from

the Office of Economic Opportunity which says that 56,219 young

people have gone through Job Corps training as of January 1, 1967.

That does not mean they are all graduates.

Mr. KELLY. That is right.

Senator MURPHY. That means they may have been there one

day, you said?

Mr. KELLY. That is right, sir.

Senator MURPHY. They may have stayed one day.

Senator PROUTY. Let us consider a survey made by the Louis

Harris organization. I am referring now to the Washington Post of

February 2 of this year.

This survey states that nearly 40 percent of all Job Corps enrollees

leave, or are rejected for medical or disciplinary reasons, in the first

30 days. It states that others leave later, and that barely 20 percent

of all enrollees remain in the programs to complete the prescribed

schedule.

This seems most unfortunate to me. The survey further points out

that the rate of unemployment actually increased among those polled

after their uncompleted Job Corps experience, with Negroes showing

a 6-percent increase. Sixteen percent of the sampling did not even

know for what they were being trained during their Job Corps tenure.

This survey covered individuals ranging from 72 hours to more than

6 months' enrollment in Job Corps programs.

Slightly more than half, 51 percent, claimed that the agency's

screening process did not give the true picture of the Job Corps.

Forty-two percent said its failure to provide vocational training was

their biggest single disappointment.

The Harris study itself pointed up one basic problem in Job Corps

information gathering. Harris was provided with almost 11,000

names from Job Corps dropout rolls. He selected 3,860 of these for a

scientific sampling, based on geographical, racial, educational, and

age differences.
NOMINATIONS 11

The polling firm was able to find only about 30 percent of the youths

sought. The article goes on to note that 59 percent of those who were

currently unemployed after leaving the Job Corps were either working

or going to school before entering the program.

It seems to me that this survey, which I am sure was taken on the

most objective basis possible—I believe 0E0 paid for it—indicates

that we have not yet begun to accomplish all that we hoped for when

the Job Corps program was instituted.

Mr. KELLY. May I offer a comment or two in terms of the Harris

poll?

You are slightly correct, that this poll was sponsored by the Job

Corps. The poll was aimed at trying to find out what had happened

to some kids that had dropped out last year, in the time frame of 

Senator MURPHY. May I ask a question?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir, Senator.

Senator MURPHY. Not to—it is on the point, I believe. Had there

been no provisions made within the Job Corps to compile this information on their own? Was it necessary at this late date for them to go

and hire an outside polling organization to find this information? Is

this a fair statement of fact?

Mr. KELLY. Let me say this, Senator, that during the first year of

the Job Corps existence, there was a tremendous preoccupation with

the creation of the facilities for this program, and there were some

starts and there were some stops in terms of gathering data, and I

think that everyone would have to say that there were more stops than

there were starts, and as a result, the kind of a data system that the

Job Corps had was inadequate for its reporting purposes, both in

terms of its internal reporting and in terms of the responsibility it has

for the people.

That situation no longer exists.

Senator MURPHY. And to the Congress, because we are asked to

appropriate money, and then we say, well, what happened to the

money, and everybody says, "Well, we don't know." And this particular Senator is not going to do that anymore.

My conscience bothers me.

Mr. KELLY. Well, I think, Senator Murphy, that when we appear

before your committee, or the committee you sit on, this spring, or

when ever we are called, that you will find that we have data on the

Job Corps now that is complete and is not ambiguous, it is not fuzzed

but firm, hard numbers.

Senator MURPHY. May I say it had better be better? The data

that we were just given, where we are told that there is 56,000 went

through, we find that that includes a fellow that was there one day.

Mr. KELLY. That is right; but he was in the Job Corps.

Senator MURPHY. Well, it had better be broken down a lot better

than that.

Mr. KELLY. It will be.

Senator MURPHY. Because this is the kind of a figure that will be

used, unfortunately, in the press.

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Senator MURPHY. 56,000 went into the Job Corps, and it is a

true figure. They did go in.

Mr. KELLY. That is right.

Senator MURPHY. How many of the 56,000 stayed a week, or 2

days? What is the rate of attrition?
12 NOMINATIONS

These are the things that we have never been able to find out.

Mr. KELLY. That is right.

Senator CLARK. Will the Senator yield?

Senator MURPHY. I will be glad to yield.

Senator CLARK. I hope very much the Senator will pursue this line

of inquiry when we come to a hearing the subcommittee is going to

hold, as the Senator from California is a member. I think this is

the kind of thing we have to get into in some depth, and I am looking

forward to have the Senator from California take an active part.

Senator MURPHY. You see, that has been one of the problems of

the committee, that the subcommittee, under the chairmanship of

Senator Clark, has had to institute another set of inquiries to find out

exactly what has been going on, you know, which is, I believe,

unnecessary.

Senator CLARK. If the Senator will yield further, I had a little

chat with Mr. Kelly the other day, and warned him we were going

to be breathing down his neck pretty soon, and he had better be ready

for us, and he assured me he would be.

Mr. KELLY. Let me say, Senator Murphy, that everything you

have said is quite in order and correct, and let me say this to you

and to the other members of the committee: That if we can't produce hard numbers, we can't produce the kind of hard numbers,

then there is going to be a different bunch of guys on the seventh

floor in the Brown Building downtown.

Senator MURPHY. Maybe not as many.

Mr. KELLY. Well, there are not too many down there now, sir.

Senator MURPHY. Forgive me for interrupting. I interrupted an

answer.

Senator PROUTY. Mr. Kelly, what is the current cost per enrollee?

Mr. KELLY. Sir, I am sorry. I did not hear.

Senator PROUTY. What is the current cost per enrollee in the Job

Corps right now?

Mr. KELLY. Current cost per enrollee, right at this moment—

and when I say "right at this moment," for the time period July

through December 1966—of all our centers, men's, women's, and

Federal conservation, was running at $6,850 per man-year.

Senator PROUTY. $6,800?

Mr. KELLY. $6,800 per man-year. Now, that is down from the

period January through June of 1966, when the average at that time

was running $8,740 per man-year.

Senator PROUTY. Can you break that down between the conservation center and urban centers?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, the Federal conservation centers in the first half

of the last calendar year were operating at an enrollee man-year

cost of $6,550. The second half of the year, July to December, they

went to $6,200.

Senator PROUTY. I see.

Mr. KELLY. Men's urban centers, during the first half of the year,

were running at the rate of $9,600 per enrollee per man-year. They

are now down to $7,960.

Women's were running at the figure of $8,600 per woman-year, and

in the last half of the calendar year, had increased to $9,300.

Senator PROUTY. Will you explain the cost-plus contracts 0E0

has with the Job Corps?
NOMINATIONS 13

Mr. KELLY. Yes, we have a number of cost-plus-fixed-fee contracts with industrial concerns, for the operation of both men's and women's urban centers. The contract is typically a Federal cost-plus-fixed-fee

contract in which the Government agrees to reimburse all actual and reasonable costs of the contractor, plus award the contract or with,

up to this point in time, what has been a relatively small fixed fee.

We are exploring right now the possibility of going to an incentivetype arrangement with our industrial contractors. The reason why

we feel that that exploration is in order is that, first of all, we do not

have a data system. We have some measures.

Secondly, we think that our older contractors in particular, have enough operating experience so that they can put together the kind

of a proposal on an incentive basis that would not place all of the risk

on the side of the Federal Government, but that we could arrive at the kind of an arrangement whereby we would reward them for performance, and as a result, the performance of the contractor in terms

of all phases of the program would be better.

Senator PROUTY. Take a hypothetical case. Assume that the

original estimate of a contract was $3 million, and the fee was 6

percent.

Senator MURPHY. It is not that high, is it?

Senator 

Mr. KELLY. 

PROUTY. 

We have 

I am 

never 

not suggesting 

had a figureit is.

Senator MURPHY. It would be about 3 percent.

Mr. KELLY. Four.

Senator MURPHY. Will the increase exceed the original estimate?

Mr. KELLY. No, sir; not under the current cost-plus-fixed-fee contracts, and it most certainly would not increase under the incentive

arrangement that we are exploring. As a matter of fact, one of the

items on which the contractor will be graded in terms of his ability

to earn additional fee will be his ability to stay within the cost parameters that are outlined, and to cut costs.

Senator MURPHY. Well, I think that is something we will want to

explore in depth later on.

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Senator MURPHY. That is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Further questions?

Senator DOMINICK. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dominick.

Senator DOMINICK. Mr. Kelly, last year, when the Deputy Director

was up here for hearings on his nomination, I asked him at that time

whether the people who were in the Job Corps for the first 30 days

were considered as enrollees. He told me that they were not. Now,

has that situation been changed?

Mr. KELLY. We are computing the data on all enrollees. We

consider 

Senator DOMINICK. Yes; but what constitutes an enrollee? That

is what I am trying to find out.

• Mr. KELLY. All right, let me see if I can explain that. If an enrollee

is in for 30 days, typically, he merely finishes what we call the orientation program, which is an introduction to the Job Corps.

That tries to explain to him what the Job Corps is all about, tries

to explain to him what his options are in terms of educational and

vocational training. If he drops out _during the first .',0-day period,
14 NOMINATIONS

our data system shows that he was in, but only for that 30-day period,

and he is considered a leaver, if I may use that expression.

The second category that we are dealing with now in our data

system are those youngsters that are in from zero to 90 days.

Third category are those kids that are in from 90 days to 9 months.

But if I am being responsive, and I am not sure I am, everybody that

has ever been in the Job Corps within the terms of our new data system

that just came on stream, and which has been under development for

about 5 months, will be considered a kid having been in the Job Corps.

Senator MURPHY. May I ask a question at this point?

Senator DOMINICK. Yes.

Senator MURPHY. As 1 recall—and correct me if I am wrong—the

Director explained, I believe, that there was a 30-day period of observation before the enrollee was taken into the Job Corps. Now is this

the same 30 days or is there a 30-day period previous to this that

they kind of size them up, and say, "Well, this fellow qualifies, so he

is now in."

Mr. KELLY. No, we assume, Senator Murphy, that he qualifies

when he arrives, because we have screened him.

Senator MURPHY. I see.

Mr. KELLY. But during the first 30-day period 

Senator MURPHY. You have screened him before he arrives?

Mr. KELLY. That is right.

Senator MURPHY. I see. During the first 30 days of the period he

is there, he is not really in the Job Corps in terms of having been

enrolled in his educational program or his vocational program. He is

going through an orientation period.

He is in, but he has not been assigned.

Mr. KELLY. That is right.

Senator DOMINICK. Now when you state here, as you have in your

previous statement, that you have 33,313 enrollees in the Job Corps—

this is your statement of March 6 

Mr. KELLY. That is right.

Senator DOMINICK. Are you including within that figure those who

are there for the first 30 days?

Mr. KELLY. I am including all of the youngsters who were in the

Job Corps On Friday night, midnight, whether they just arrived that

day.

Senator DOMINICK. How many of these leave in the first 30 days?

Mr. KELLY. We have been running about a 30-percent attrition in

the first 30 days, over the last 6 months. That attrition has varied

all the way from 7 percent at Camp Gary, Tex., to 42 percent at

Camp Custer, Mich.

Senator DOMINICK. Do you happen to know what it is in Collbran,

Colo.?

Mr. KELLY. No, I don't, right off the top of my head but I could

tell you.

Senator DOMINICK. I think it would be interesting to me, if I

could find it.

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir, I will get it for you. We have it sir.

(The document referred to follows:)

Collbran Job Corps Conservation Center, July—December 1966

Input 52

Prebasic terminations 10

Attrition rate (percent) 19
NOMINATIONS 15

Senator DOMINICK. Now on the assumption, then, that your

figures are now including everybody who anived in a Job Corps,

and then go through a year's training—is that correct?

Mr. KELLY. It depends upon the program, Senator. We have, for

instance, down at Camp Gary, Tex., a welding program that takes

14 months to complete. We have some programs in culinary arts

like the one up in Kilmer that takes approximately 9 months to

complete.

We have some programs in the women's centers in light electronics

assembly, and as I recall, persons qualify for entrance into television

assembly or other light electronics assembly work in a period of 6

months, so that the curriculum is different, depending on what is

being taught.

We have a heavy truck driver's program up at Kilmer, where

when the enrollee completes that, and as I recall—and do i't hold

me to this number—I believe it is 4 months, at the end of that period,

he not only graduates, and that is a poor term (he completes that

program), but he also receives a membership in the Teamsters Union

and the Teamsters endeavor to place him on a job, driving semitrailer

rigs.

Senator DOMINICK. Now how many of the ones who originally

show up in camp, what percentage of those drop out or are fired

before they complete their training?

Mr. KELLY. Senator, I don't have that figure in the top of my

head. I can tell you that the attrition has been running around 30

percent in the first 30 days, and that is and has been a grave concern

to me, because one of the ways that I can effect cost cuts in this

program is to get that attrition cut down in the first 30 days, since I

obviously have quite an investment in a kid, just to get him enrolled.

I have the investment of having screened hull, I have the investment of having transported him, I have got, sometimes, in that first

30 days some medical and dental investment. I will get that figure

for you, Senator, though.

Senator DOMINICK. Fine. It would be helpful, because last year,

the Deputy Director during this hearing if I recall the testimony

correctly—and I asked the questions, so I think I do—testified that

if you excluded the ones who dropped out in the first 30 days, and

just took then from there on, of the remainder, 30 percent dropped

out before the completion of their training, and 10 percent of them

were fired, leaving 60 percent left.

Now does that sound familiar to you?

Mr. KELLY. It sounds familiar to me, Senator Dominick, and I

think—those figures at that time were probably accurate figures in

terms of the kids that have been through the Job Corps at that point

in time.

But I would like to give you or provide to you, and for the record,

where we stand right now, in terms of the query that you are making.

(The material referred to follows:)

JOB CORPS ACHIEVEMENT CATEGORIES

Job Corps utilizes a set of categories which reflect more adequately the levels of

accomplishment reached by existing Corpsmen. These categories recognize that

many Corpsmen leave the program before reaching a level which could reasonably

76-435-67-----3
16 NOMINATIONS

be called "graduation" but have nonetheless acquired skills sufficient to make a

difference in their post-Center lives. •

A. Advanced training

The typical Corpsman leaving at this level will have the accomplishments described in basic and senior training (below) and a total advancement of nine levels

in reading and nine in mathematics as well as having completed an on-the-job

vocational training in conservation work (Conservation Centers).

B. Senior training

The typical Corpsman leaving at this level will have completed orientation,

the Job Performance Skills Course, five levels of reading, six steps in mathematics,

a pre-vocational curriculum and one entry-level vocational training course as well

as work project experience.

C. Basic training

The typical Corpsman leaving at this level will have completed orientation, the

Job Performance Skills Course, two levels of reading, three steps in mathematics

and a basic pre-vocational curriculum as well as experience in a variety of useful

work projects.

D. Prebasic: Less than 30 days

Those who leave prior to entering a Basic Training program.

E. Discharges: Disciplinary or other causes

1. Senior.

2. Basic.

3. Prebasic.

Analysis of output from Job Corps by achievement category

Program achievement category

From inception through

December 1966

July through

December 1966

Number Percent Number Percent

Advanced 10,690 19 6,614 26

Senior 13,233 23 5,972 24

Basic 11,735 21 5,296 21

Prebasic 14,526 26 4,660 18

Discharged 

Senior 2,336 4 1,188 5

Basic 2,073 4 1,054 4

Prebasic 1,626 3 556 2

Total output 56,219 100 25,340 100

NOTE.—See table on p. 19 for analysis of output by placement category.

Senator DOMINICK. All right.

Now secondly, and I am not sure, because I am not quite sure of

what this Harris poll means, how many of those who complete their

training are put into jobs for which they were trained?

And how long do they hold those jobs?

Mr. KELLY. Well, let me say this. As I mentioned earlier, in

terms of the figures that have come out of the data system that

Senator Prouty was talking about, that we placed 25,741 or 25,741

found jobs.

Now the average wage of those people who stayed in the Job Corps

for 9 months is $1.71 an hour. If any of them had worked before they

came in the Job Corps, and many of our kids have never had jobs,

period, the average wage of Job Corps enrollees who work prior to

coming in is 80 cents an hour, so that in terms of having placed 25,000

and having an average wage of $1.71 an hour, in my judgment, we

have made a significant advance in terms of the well being of that

young man or woman.
NOMINATIONS 17

Senator DOMINICK. Well, I am positive that you have, and I

think this is a good goal to shoot at. The question is, how do you get

them there the fastest and the cheapest?

Mr. KELLY. Let me say that we are still in the process of doing

on a rather small scale some innovative things. The whole Job

Corps was innovative at the outset, and we went through much the

same kind of an operation, I think, that a military contractor goes

through, when he is assigned the whole business of research and

developing a new piece of military hardware.

Nobody had ever run a Job Corps before, and I suppose the first

18 months of Job Corps operations was just that. It was a research

and development phase. We are now in the kind of situation where

we have created the facility. We have trained the staff. We know

a lot more about running the Job Corps than we knew even 6 months

ago, because we have data that we did not have 6 months ago. So that

it seems to me that we have moved into a production phase of this

program and that what we have got to do now is one, cut our attrition, particularly in the first 30 days, two, we have got to pay much

more careful attention to costs. The whole business of incentive

arrangement with our contractors, and the whole business of cutting

attrition that will then insure to our benefit in terms of cutting costs.

Senator DOMINICK. Now in terms of this cost, when you gave the

figures to Senator Prouty of $6,800, I believe you said for the last 6

months, $6,850.

Mr. KELLY. $6,950, yes, sir.

Senator DOMINICK. These were for the men Job Corps, is that

correct?

Mr. KELLY. No; that is a weighted average, men's, and conservation of the direct operating costs for all centers after their first 9

months of operation.

Senator DOMINICK. Did you include in that the amortization of the

facilities?

Mr. KELLY. No; we do not.

Senator DOMINICK. So that the capital cost amortization is not

included.

Mr. KELLY. That is right, capital costs are excluded.

Senator DOMINICK. It does include, however, travel expenses then?

Mr. KELLY. It includes the enrollees' pay and readjustment allowance, his travel, and the Government's share of his allotment.

Senator DOMINICK. Does it include the salaries of those who

were 

Mr. KELLY. It includes center staff salaries, benefits and travel,

enrollee food, clothing, medical and dental training, supplies and

services, facilities upkeep, utilities, communications and administrative expenses.

Senator DOMINICK. Administrative expenses. Administrative expenses includes the salaries and supervisors?

Mr. KELLY. That is right.

Senator DOMINICK. And the food and lodging for them?

Mr. KELLY. Center employees pay for their own food and lodging.

Senator DOMINICK. Indluding VISTA personnel who are there?

Mr. KELLY. No, VISTA personnel are budgeted for by VISTA and

paid by VISTA. We do not pick them.
18 NOMINATIONS

Senator DOMINICK. Now you mentioned a little while ago that you

had something like 56,000 people in the Job Corps, and that your

statement says 33.

Mr. KELLY. No; I said that 56,000, as of the end of 1966, 56,000

young men and women had gone through the Job Corps.

Senator DOMINICK. I see. That clarifies that.

Now at the moment, what follow up do you use in keeping track

of your graduates?

Mr. KELLY. Our data system which became operative on March 1

will allow us to follow up based on a 6, 12, and 18 month basis. We

utilimately hope to utilize the tapes that come off of the social security

system, in which we will then be able to follow up on a less expensive

basis, I think. What we are doing now is this. As you know, we

have seven regional offices around the country, and we have a place-

• ment operation, a Job Corps placement operation in each one of those

seven regional offices.

When a kid leaves a Job Corps center, there is immediately filled

out within that Job Corps center a form on that youngster that goes

to the regional office within the geographical area to which the youth

is returning.

Now it is the responsibility of our placement office in the region to

one, try and place that youngster; two, follow up on this placement, at

intervals of 6 months, 12 months, and 18 months.

Senator DOMINICK. Are the training programs within those regional

areas oriented to the industries which are in that regional area?

Mr. KELLY. Let me say this: Not all of our Job Corps youngsters

go back to where they came from. You may have a kid for instance,

who came from New Jersey, and perhaps went to a Job Corps conservation center in Pennsylvania, maybe Blue Jay, for instance, and

while at Blue Jay learned to become a chain saw operator.

He may decide he does not want to back go to New Jersey. He

may want to stay in Pennsylvania, or he may want to go to Ohio, so

that in terms of structuring programs vis-a-vis the industries in the

area, there is no guarantee that those kids will stay in that geographical area.

Senator DOMINICK. Are the enrollees placed in regional camps

closest to their point of origin in it?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir; I think that you will note in any statement

that one of the reasons why we have been able to cut transportation

costs from $76.13 in June to $35.55 during January is because of this

regional assignment. Now we still have one problem.

We do not have any Job Corps centers in the Southeast.

Senator DOMINICK. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be helpful, at

least to me, and I want to congratulate, first of all, Mr. Kelly for

handling these questions very skillfully and very ably 

Mr. KELLY. Thank you, sir.

Senator DOMINICK (continuing). If he could submit for the record,

and I think this would be helpful to all members of the committee,

some of this data that he has been talking about. In other words,

let's take the $6,850, and if there is any reasonable statistical way of

doing it, include in it what the cost of amortization of capital facilities

are, for example, so to see what the actual cost to the taxpayer is.

Secondly, if he could give us the number of people who are actually

graduating as compared to those who arrived at the Job Corps camp,
NOMINATIONS 19

and thirdly, exactly the number who are in jobs for which they have

been trained, and if he could then estimate for us the cost for the

taxpayers of each one of those people who have been placed in such a

job, because this will be a different figure, obviously, I think those

things would be very helpful as far as the record is concerned.

Senator PROUTY. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Prouty.

(The document referred to follows:)

AMORTIZATION OF CAPITAL INVESTMENT IN JOB CORPS CENTER FACILITIES AND

EQUIPMENT

The amortization rate for the costs of construction and rehabilitation and

accountable equipment has averaged $375 per enrollee man-year through the

period ending December 31, 1966.

ESTIMATE OF CURRENT COST PER PLACEMENT

For the period from July through December 1966 there were approximately

115 placements into jobs, schools, or the military for every 100 enrollee man-years

of training, at a direct operating cost of $6,050 per resulting enrollee placement

for Job Corps centers which have been in operation for more than nine months.

Senator PROUTY. I asked for this same information last year

from five Job Corps camp administrators and as far as I know it

was never furnished.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kelly, can you provide that figure?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir; we will provide that information. We

will provide it, an if you have additional information, Senator

Prouty, that you would like for specific camps or other things, we

will provide that.

Senator DOMINICK. In addition, I think it would be helpful if

we also knew how those who have finished their training programs,

how many of them have gone into the armed services, and how many

of them have gone into jobs for which they were not trained, and

thirdly, what has happened to those who are not in either of those

categories.

If you could have any way of finding this out.

Mr. KELLY. There are some people, Senator Dominick, that we

have just plain lost.

Senator DOMINICK. Well, I have rather gathered that from the

testimony of the Deputy Director.

(The document referred to follows:)

Analysis of output from Job Corps by placement category from inception through

December 1966

Placement category: Number

Jobs 25,741

School 4,612

Military 

Total placements 

3,458

33,811

Unemployed 14,695

Recent departures from Job Corps 7,713

Total not placed 

Total output from Job Corps 

22,408

56, 219

NoTE.—See table on page 16 for analysis of output by achievement category. No estimate yet available

for number in jobs for which not trained versus total number in jobs.
20 NOMINATIONS

Mr. KELLY. But we won't lose any more in the future. In the

early days of the Job Corps, there were some people who were

just plain lost because the data system was not sophisticated enough

to follow them.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?

Senator MURPHY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Murphy.

Senator MURPHY. You have stated that many of these fellows

want to get enough reading and writing and arithmetic so they can

get in the military.

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Senator MURPHY. This I would assume would be a matter for the

screening officer.

Mr. KELLY. That is right. The screening 

Senator MURPHY. Would it be possible for a fellow who designates

that he wants to get reading and writing and arithmetic in order to

get in the military, to maybe handle his case in a different way,

maybe through his local educational system, rather than to send him

to the Job Corps, go through the whole costly process, and maybe

accomplish what this fellow wants in a lot shorter period of time,

so that he does not get mixed up with some skills that he really does

not want or need, and help him to get into the military, which is

his choice?

Mr. KELLY. It may very well be, but up to this point in time,

Senator, I know of no system that has been instituted locally, and

when I say "locally" I mean within educational systems around the

country.

Senator MURPHY. How long have you known of the number of

fellows that want to get into the military?

Mr. KELLY. Well, we have known from the very beginning that

there were youngsters.

Senator MURPHY. Don't you think it might be a good idea, then,

to explore, maybe pick out the community, and see if such—in other

words, one of the things that disturbs me is that the whole operation

is taking so long to crank up. The research and development cost

has gone way out of proportion, in my humble opinion, to what it

should have been.

I know that it was a crash program, and this is within—this is one

of the things that I objected to in the beginning, because when you

are dealing with human beings, I think you ought to do your research

before you start a little more carefully, one; two, when you are dealing

with the amounts of money with which we are concerned, I don't

think we should spend too much time with the trial and error.

I think that by now we ought to know a good deal about it, so that

this is why I asked, has there been any change in this screening?

Obviously the screening must be way off, or you would not have

30 percent of the fellows leaving within the first 2 weeks.

Mr. KELLY. Well, may I comment on that, Mr. Chairman?

Senator MURPHY. Yes; and may I say also, you would not have

reports that, according to this Harris poll, that so many of the fellows
NOMINATIONS 21

did not find when they got there that it is what they were told it was

going to be.

I have run into this in many instances, where the young fellows

have said, "Well, you know, I thought it was going to be one thing,

and it did not turn out to be that."

Mr. KELLY. Well, let me say this, Senator Murphy. As you know,

these youngsters have dropped out of everything, before we even get

them.

Senator MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. KELLY. So that we are not talking about middle-class kids.

We are talking about kids who have literally dropped out of everything.

One of the encouraging things about Harris poll results was that

over 50 percent of those kids, even after having dropped out of the

Job Corps, said "I wish I had not. I wish I could go back to the

Job Corps."

Senator MuRpinc. Yes.

Mr. KELLY. So that apparently we provided then some kind of

incentive to those youngsters. Now it seems to me that in terms of

having gone through what I call a logistics phase of this operation—

admittedly it was done very rapidly. We constructed 116-odd

facilities to put youngsters in, but one of the reasons that that was

necessary was because of the distances in transport, and as you will

recall, the Congress was critical of us last year because we were

transporting kids from Boston to California.

Senator MURPHY. It would seem last year that that was part of

the basic plan. There was a plan to broaden the youngster's education, by taking the kid from one area of the country, taking him to

another, and 

Mr. KELLY. But I think, Senator, it was dictated more by the

fact that our centers at the outset were sparse in number, and located

at divergent points in the country. I think the thing that is important here is that we have passed through the research and development.

We know a lot more about these kids than anybody else does, but

I think your suggestion about seeing if a local school system could

begin trying to do something in terms of kids that merely want to

get in the military—recognizing that these kids are products of the

local school system; and for some reason or other, they just have not

cut it by being in the local school system, even to the degree of being

able to get in the military.

Now among poor kids at least it is my observation among kids

who are from poverty families, getting in the military is a symbol of

having made it.

Senator MURPHY. I can remember years ago in New York that if

you got on the cops, if you made the police force, this was the end

of everything, and when I worked around New York, I was tempted;

and one time, I ran some computations, and actually, from a financial standpoint, given a normal amount of good luck, I would have

been better off. I would have been able to retire 20 years ago, with

three-quarters salary; with good luck, I would have been captain of
22 NOMINATIONS

detectives, and I would have been way ahead of what I have been

doing.

Of course, I don't include the exciting career and the honor of being

in the U.S. Senate, but I know a good deal about the background of

these things.

On other question I would like to ask. Now there have been

many problems and presently I am getting a lot of mail about locating

Job Corps camps. This is the beginning, there were problems within

the community.

Has there been anything done to try and create a better atmosphere

in the community maybe during the introductory period, or even

before the selection of the location?

Mr. KELLY. I think, Senator Murphy, we have come a long way

in that regard. We have in the United States today about a hundred

community councils that are councils that have been established

by the communities themselves in the vicinity of the Job Corps camp

or center. These people have gotten involved with chiefs of police,

local social service clubs, the mayor in some instances, members of

the city council, and the whole purpose of this undertaking is to try

and create the kind of relationships between the community and the

center that are just absolutely important for the successful operation

of the Job Corps center, in my judgment.

Now the week following Easter, nationally we are going to have in

the Job Corps what we are calling a salute to the communities, and

what we are trying to do right now, and are in the process of implementing, is setting up a number of community projects that our

Job Corps center youngsters will do for that community, whether

it be moving in and cleaning up a park, or moving in and painting

some park benches or providing some hostess time at a center for

the aged.

These kind of things. Now these have been done over the country,

but not on a kind of organized basis and I think it is very important,

that this relationship be further cemented if the communities are to

understand what we are trying to do and if we are to understand

what the needs are, and the communities' anxieties are.

Senator MURPHY. I asked this because I am presently getting a

sizable amount of mail from the Newhall-Saugus area, which is outside of Los Angeles.

Mr. KELLY. I am familiar with it.

Senator MURPHY. One of the few things that (Riffles Los Angeles,

and I wondered what the status was there.

Mr. KELLY. Well, we have not made a decision on the Saugus site.

As you undoubtedly know, that is under consideration, has been under

consideration, as a woman's center. The Thiokol Chemical Corp.

has been in the process of putting together a proposal. Then I, too,

have had a number of letters from people who are objecting to the location of the center there.

I have on the other hand also had any number of letters from people

who say the center would be beneficial to the community, and they
NOMINATIONS 23

would like to have it there, but as of this time, I have not made a

decision as to whether we are going to Saugus or not, Senator Murphy.

Senator CLARK. Would the Senator yield?

For a moment?

Senator MURPHY. Well, I am finished and I would like to congratulate Mr. Kelly on the direct and forceful way that you have answered

the questions. In the past, I have gotten the feeling from time to

to time that snow was falling. And being one of the old original

snowmen, I always kind of came away disappointed. But I must say

that it is gratifying to get the direct answers and the indication of the

understanding of the problems and the determinations that now is the

time to fix them up here and there, and I would like to congratulate

Mr. Kelly on his testimony.

Mr. KELLY. Thank you, Senator Murphy.

Senator MURPHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator CLARK. Mr. Chairman.

Senator DOMINICK. Would you let me just ask one question?

Senator CLARK. Surely.

Senator DOMINICK. Just one. In our computations of costs, if

you have not included the allocation of expenses at the Washington

office attributable to Job Corps, would you also try and do that for

us?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

(The document referred to follows:)

ALLOCATION OF JOB CORPS HEADQUARTERS AND REGIONAL OFFICE EXPENSE

For the period from July through December 1966 actual Job Corps Headquarters

and Regional Office expense, including enrollee input, support, and placement

activities, enrollee payroll administration, and program development, research,

and evaluation, would result in an allocation of approximately $850 in such

indirect costs for each enrollee man-year of training.

Senator CLARK. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Clark.

Senator CLARK. I wonder what is the disposition of our good

friends on the Republican side with respect to voting on the confirmation of not only these two, but a large number of others—well, not a

large number, three others, who are on the agenda this morning.

We have permission to sit, so we could clean this up today. I know

several of us, I imagine on both sides of the table, have some important

engagement we would like to get to if we could clean this up today,

that would be very good.

We have permission to sit. What is the disposition of our Republican friends? Are you going to be prepared to act today, or do you

want to go over, or what do you want to do?

Senator PROUTY. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman. I am

perfectly willing to act. I do have to go back to the office shortly

before 1 o'clock.

Senator DOMINICK. There is no quorum.
24 NOMINATIONS

The CHAIRMAN. Let me say this to you gentlemen. I think we

have to act pretty soon, for this reason. We have permission to sit

while the Senate is in session, but under the unanimous-consent

agreement, there will be a half-hour debate on each amendment.

That means we will very likely be having a yea-and-nay vote over

there pretty soon.

Senator PROUTY. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that we might as

well act on the people we have heard, and have had an opportunity

to question.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I understood Senator Fannin would come

back.

Senator DOMINICK. That still won't be a quorum.

Senator CLARK. Would you gentlemen object to have the committee

polled? Or do you want a quorum here for a vote?

Senator DOMINICK. I would just say this: I have been always

adamant about polling the committee unless it was just absolutely

imperative that we do so. I don't see anywhere why the Democrats

can't show up for something like this and provide a quorum.

Senator CLARK. I don't either.

Senator MURPHY. I really think so.

The CHAIRMAN. I think all of us who are present here this morning

would agree with you, Peter.

Senator DOMINICK. Thank you.

Senator PROUTY. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Kelly one

more question. Is there any reason why youngsters who have

dropped out of the Job Corps can't return to it if they wish to?

Mr. KELLY. No, sir; there are cases where we do not allow a

youngster to reenter the Job Corps, and as a matter of fact, we have

had a number of kids that came, went, came back, and stayed to

complete their training.

Senator CLARK. Mr. Chairman, Could I make this suggestion?

That if Senator Dominick is adamant, in the word of your colleague

from Alabama on this, that we could perhaps hold the hearings with

respect to the other nominees?

The CHAIRMAN. There are no hearings on the others. The Subcommittee on Labor has already had hearings on the nomination of

Mr. Wooten and it has not been our custom to hold any hearings on

nominees to the Board of Regents of the National Library of Medicine.

Senator DOMINICK. Dr. Smith is a very distinguished member from

my own State and, of 'course, I would like to get her approved as soon

as we can, but I still would like to have a quorum.

Senator CLARK. Will you make a deal?

The CHAIRMAN. Then, I may say that the two Senators from

California support the nomination of Dr. Zipf to be a member of the

Board of Regents.

Senator DOMINICK. The two Members from Colorado support the

nomination of Dr. Smith, too.
NOMINATIONS 25

The CHAIRMAN. Just a minute. Unless there are some further

questions.

Senator NELSON. I did have just a brief question or two.

The CHAIRMAN. You have questions, you say? All right, go

ahead, sir.

Senator NELSON. I just 10 days ago spent a half day, better than a

half day at Camp McCoy, and I must say I was, you said they had a

42-percent attrition rate, for instance, highest in the country.

I did not remember, I guess I did not inquire about that statistic

while I was there. It is a new camp, as I know.

I was tremendously impressed with the vocational training program

they had there. I thought the committee might like to know that

one service office from Iowa came up to McCoy and offered to hire

300 of these kids, that are being trained in small motors repair there.

They have a vocational program there from around auto mechanics,

around repairing refrigerators, and that sort of thing, first-rate people

teaching them, and in all of these who are in jobs in short supply in

this country, they told me there that every kid that was qualified in

the automotive or with electrical repair or motor repair, everything,

they place every single one of them who meet a reasonable standard

of proficiency.

So I just wanted you to know that. The question I have, and would

like to have the answer to, Mr. Harris' "Poll says something like 50

percent or whatever it is of these kids had jobs before they came in."

Statistics that—maybe you just want accurate, or could not be

accurate. Statistics that the 0E0 gave to this committee last summer sometime, last fall, and that you printed in your profile on the

Job Corps kids, was that only 10 percent of these kids were employed

at the time they came into the Job Corps.

I don't see how 0E0 and Harris can be so far apart as to say that

50 percent of the kids who quit had jobs before they came in, and a

little tiny percentage more after they got out, and 0E0 says only 10

percent had jobs, at an average of 80 cents an hour.

Can you rationalize that?

These figures were so far off. I had given a speech to 700 teachers,

and on the day that I gave the speech, the Harris poll came out, and

there were my statistics confronting the Harris poll statistics, and of

course everybody figured Harris was right and Nelson is incompetent,

which I did not like.

Mr. KELLY. I don't blame you, Senator. I would not like it,

,either.

Senator NELSON. Now can you explain?

Mr. KELLY. Let me say one further thing about the Harris poll.

'The Harris poll was aimed at finding out why kids who drop out early

in the program drop out, so that we were not dealing with kids who

completed programs or had gone further in the program than the early

,dropouts. Of all the kids that have ever been in the Job Corps,
26 NOMINATIONS

60 percent of them, had at one time prior to Job Corps, a job of some

kind

Senator NELSON. Where did 0E0 get this 10 percent?

Mr. KELLY. I don't know where this figure came from.

Senator NELSON. You have printed it. I have it in my office.

Senator MURPHY. That is part of the snow that I referred to.

Mr. KELLY. Let me back off a minute, Senator Nelson. Unless

the figures that I have in front of me right now came out of our

computer, unless there is an incorrect digit here.

Senator NELSON. What does it mean when you now say that—"60

percent at some time had a job"? Can't we have a statistic that says

as of the time they decided to join, x percent had a job and x percent

did not?

Mr. KELLY. That is where that 10 percent comes from. There

were only 10 percent of the kids that went into the Job Corps who at

the time they went in were employed, but 60 percent of the kids that

had been in the Job Corps at one time or another may have been on

a job.

Senator NELSON. Then I don't know whether I interpret the Harris

poll correctly or not. These kids, Harris says, 50 percent of them

had jobs.

Senator PROUTY. Fifty-nine percent either had jobs or were going

to school.

Mr. KELLY. That is a sample, though, Senator. That is not the

56,000 kids that had been through the Job Corps. The Harris

poll as I understand, Senator Prouty, was 3,500 kids that were

questioned?

Senator NELSON. Yes, but this is well, do you mean to say that

those who drop out of the Job Corps have a better employment record

than those who decide to stick through?

Mr. KELLY. NO.

Senator NELSON. I can't understand it.

Mr. KELLY. That is not what I have said, I don't believe.

Senator NELSON. Well, do you say that Harris is—his sample is a

sample of kids who dropped out?

Mr. KELLY. That is right. Early on.

Senator NELSON. On that sample, 59 percent or whatever it was,

50-odd percent, had jobs before they came in?

Senator PROUTY. Or were in school.

Senator NELSON. Or were in school. So then your statistics are

that only 10 percent of them had jobs, so I am saying the dropout

sample under these figures is better than those who stay in the Corps?

Mr. KELLY. Let me qualify. What I am saying is that 10 percent

of the kids that were in the Job Corps immediately upon coming in it

are coming in from jobs. That 60 percent of the kids in the Job

Corps that have been through the Job Corps might at one time—

did at one time—not might; did at one time or another in their prior

life, before coming to Job Corps, have some kind of a job. Of the

kids that had jobs, the average earning was 60 cents an hour. Of the

kids who have left the Job Corps, the average earning is $1.71.
NOMINATIONS 27

Senator MURPHY. You said 80 before; 80 cents an hour was the

average.

Mr. KELLY. It is 80. What did I say now?

Senator MURPHY. Sixty.

Mr. KELLY. I am sorry. It is 80 cents.

Senator MURPHY. You lost 20 cents.

Senator NELSON. I still can't figure out the Harris poll, in which

they say that 59 percent of those who quit, whom Harris interviewed,

had been employed or in school when they came in.

Mr. KELLY. Fifty-nine percent of that sample.

Senator NELSON. Well, yes.

Senator PROUTY. What is the poll for?

Mr. KELLY. Let me also say this: That one of the—if there's a

jiggle in the Harris poll, and I am not implying that there is a jiggle in

it, but if there is, you want to realize that this is what the kids told the

interviewer, and that kids sometimes do not give the reason, the true

reason, as to why they behave or act in a certain manner.

Senator NELSON. Well, I would think this. They drop out, and

they want to give an explanation, but I would feel a whole lot better

if I were sure that you can say, at what kind of jobs are you talking

about?

In that 60 percent, you mean if a guy had a job once in his life, for 1

week, delivering groceries, he was employed?

Mr. KELLY. He was employed.

Senator NELSON. It would be helpful. It would seem to me that

one of the things that any profile ought to get from these kids is where

were you born, how long did you go to school, as you, I assume, get?

Mr. KELLY. How many jobs have you had.

Senator NELSON. And I never had a job, or I was a delivery boy, or

I was this or that.

Mr. KELLY. We get that.

Senator NELSON. But saying to us that 60 percent at some time

or another had job experience, but only 10 percent were working when

they came in, really does not mean anything.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Nelson, may I interrupt?

Senator Kennedy is chairing a subcommittee on the Judiciary Committee and wants to be counted here for a quorum. Is there any

objection—if he is here with us now—to counting him for a quorum so

when we get through here we can vote?

Senator DOMINICK. No objection.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. All right, thank you, Ted. Thank

you very much. All right, Senator.

Senator NELSON. I am through. All I want to know is whether

when we come back, you are able to satisfy me that when you say 60

percent had jobs—job experience, you are able to say that that really

does, you know, 60 percent had job experience, meaning that they

worked all of their lives, you know, 5 years, or 1 week, or 1 day. I

want to know what the job experience is, so that we can tell once they

get through the Corps, what we are doing for these kids.
28 NOMINATIONS

Mr. KELLY. Let me do better than that, if I can, Senator Nelson.

Let me come and see you.

Senator NELSON. I am sure the committee has got the same question

I have.

Senator MURPHY. May I ask a question I think might clear this up?

You have a series of questions that you ask these fellows in the screening?

Mr. KELLY. That is right, we have a series of tests we give them, too.

Senator MURPHY. Could we have a copy?

Mr. KELLY. Of those tests and questions? Sure, absolutely.

(The document referred to follows:)

JOB CORPS ADMISSIONS CRITERIA

To be admitted to the Job Corps, an applicant must:

A. Be at least 16 but not yet 22 years of age at the time of enrollment.

B. Be a permanent resident of the United States.

C. Have dropped out of school and have been out at least 3 months at the

time of application.

D. Need vocational training in order to get and hold a decent job.

E. Be able to profit from a change in environment in a residential training

program.

F. Come from a low-income family.

G. Have sufficient mental ability to benefit from the program.

H. Not be in draft classification 1A after pre-induction exam or in the National

Guard or a Reserve component.

I. Not have a history of serious criminal or anti-social behavior that would

jeopardize the youth's own safety or that of others or would limit his ability to

adjust to the Job Corps.

J. Express a firm interest in joining the Job Corps and a desire to do his best

to complete the training.

K. Have written consent of parents or legal guardian.

L. Not have a medical condition which represents a potentially serious hazard to the youth or to others in the Job Corps, results in significant interference 

in the normal performance of Job Corps duties, or requires frequent or prolonged

hospital treatment.

M. If a female with a dependent child or children, present written certification

from a public child welfare agency that the child(ren) will be under adequate

care and protection during the period the youth is enrolled in the Job Corps.

Senator MURPHY. Now, you apparently now have a series of records

that you keep for 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, which has a

familiar ring.

Mr. KELLY. I think, Senator, you are responsible for it. At least

gave some thrust to that notion.

Senator MURPHY. Well, could we have a copy of this?

Mr. KELLY. Yes, sir.

Senator MURPHY. Data sheet, and I think this would help all of

us to have an understanding of what is being done.

(The document referred to follows:)

RESULTS OF FOLLOW-UP STUDIES

In July of 1966 a placement report on all Corpsmen leaving Job Corps Centers

was inaugurated. However, no data was available on dropouts or discharges

prior to that date and this left a gap in the data base. Accordingly, Job Corps

took the following steps:

1. Conducted a follow-up on all Corpsmen listed on the Morning Report as

"graduates." The current status of all of those who could be traced was determined and an appropriate adjustment made in the records.
NOMINATIONS 29

2. A follow-up of the 35,537 dropouts and discharges was conducted on a

statistical sampling basis by a private firm to determine their current status.

3. Earnings reports were procured from the Social Security Administration,

without identifying the Corpsmen, for all Corpsmen who had been recorded as placed prior to March 31, 1966 from the three types of Job Corps Centers (i.e.) Conservation, Men's Urban and Women's Urban. This will be a continuing

program.

4. Inaugurated a program through Joint Action in Community Service, a, private non-profit organization, to report at 6- and 18-month intervals the infor- mation now required by law address, employment status, salary and present and

former job.
* U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE: 1966-241-486

CORPS DAT. A SHEET

RECRUITED BY (Name of Recruitment Agency)

Budget Bureau No. 116-R018.1

Approval expires December 31, 1967

1. TYPE OF APPLICATION . 2. NAME OF APPLICANT 3. SOCIAL SECURITY NO. OR TIN 28-36

1 1 NEW

2 n READMIT

LAST 2-15 FIRST 16-26 m• I. 27

SSN

TIN 900,781,850

4. STREET. ADDRESS 37-54 5. CITY [55-n 613. STATE 74-75 80 7. ZIP C - DE 1-5 8. DATE OF INTERVIEW. 6-11

CODE

NO.

OR RFD MO. DAY YEAR

1. 6A. STATE (Abbrv.)

9. SIZE OF PLACE 12 10. CONGRESS- 13-14 11. SEX 15 12. RACE 16 13. ETHNIC GROUP 17

1 El CAUCASIAN

2 Li NEGRO

3 III ASIATIC

0 Li OTHER

1 El LATIN AMERICAN

2 ij CARIBBEAN

3 Li PACIFIC 0 i I OTHER

4 Li AMERICAN .INDIAN

IONAL 01ST.

1 I 1 m 1 n LESS THAN 2.500

2 pi2,800- 50,000

3 El 50,060 - 250,000

•4 I I MORE THAN 250,000

1

2 1 i

14. DATE OF 18-23 15. PLACE OF BIRTH 37-55 16. PERMANENT 58 1

U.S. RESI.. ----1

DENT'?

1 ElY55

2 I I NO

17. MARITAL STATUSL59

1 Li SINGLE

2 i____I MARRIED

3 n DIVORCED

4 I I WIDOWED(R)

5 j j SEPARATED

18. NO. OF 60-61

DEPEND.

ENT CHILDREN BIRTH ,

MO. DAY YEAR

CITY STATE (Abbrv.)

I

I

STATE CODE NO.

56-57
19. MONTHS 62-64

OUT OF 

SCHOOL

0E0

Only

20. HIGHEST 1 65-67

SCHOOL 

GRADE COM.

PLETED

.0E0

Only

.21. ENGLISH 1 68

COMPETENCE.

1 Li GOOD

2 n FAIR

3 flNONE

22. LANGUAGE SPOKEN IN HOME

AMERICAN

1 I INDIAN 7 L j'FRENCH

2 ISPANISH 8 I I HUNGARIAN

3 1ITALIAN

4 I GERMAN

5 POLISH I

6 Li RUSSIAN

69

N i I NOT APPLICABLE

0 1 !OTHER (Specify)

23. OCCUPA- 1 70-72

TION

(present or most

recent)

DOT CODE

24. EARNINGS

PER HOUR

73-75 80 25. JOB SKILL.

LEVEL

I 1

1-3

1 UNSKILLED

2 Li SEMI-SKILLED

3 1 1SKILLED

SUB- SCORE

26. LABOR FORCE STATUS I 4.6

1 FULL-TIME

.2 I PART-TIME OR SEASONAL

3 Li UNEMPLOYED

SUB-SCORE

27. NO. OF WEEKS 7.11

SINCE EMPLOYED FULL-TIME

SUB- SCORE

28. EMPLOYABILITY

TOTAL SCORE

0E0

Only

12-14

29. ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS

1 1 1SUB-STANDARD LIVING CONDITIONS

2 I I DEFICIENT OR DISRUPTIVE HOME

3 i I POTENTIALLY HARMFUL SPARE-TIME

A CTI VI TIES

4 I LIMITED JOB OPPORTUNITIES

0E0 Only

30. WELFARE

RECIPIENT?

1 1___1 YES

2 I I NO

17 31. NO. IN

FAMILY

18-19 32. ESTIMATED. • 20-25

ANNUAL

FAMILY INCOME

LiNOT APPLICABLE

0E0

Only

33. TEST

SCORE A

37-39

0E0

Only

34. TEST

SCORE B

40-42

0E0

Only

CAD
35. SELECTIVE SERVICE

NO.

43-53 36. DRAFT CLASSIFICATION

1 I I 1A, 1A0, 10 7 [T:14F

2 1 1tY

3 El 2A, 2C

4 LA to

5 I 13A

6 fl 4C

54

8 LA IS, 29

9 LA 4A

0 El,OTHER

N LINOT APPLICABLE

37. REJECTED By

ARMED FORCES?

1 I I YES

2 LINO

N EINOT APPLICABLE

55 38. IF SO, WHY? I 56

1 1 PHYSICAL 1 

2 riMENTAL

3 LA UNDER AGE

4 ElINO VACANCY

5 I I UNKNOWN

0 Ei OTHER

39. TYPE DISCHARGE

1 fl HONORABLE

2 Li GENERAL

57

3 1 I UNDESIRABLE

5 Li BAD CONDUCT

6 Lii DISHONORABLE

N NoT APPLICABLE

40. ARMED

SERVICES 

spN

OR

SON

58-60

SEPARATION

NO.

41. BEHAVIOR CATEGORY

1 fl NOT ELIGIBLE

2 1 I IN QUESTION

3 LA ELIGIBLE

'0E0

Only.

61-62 42. LENGTH OF

STAY COMMITMENT?

1 I I YES

2 LINO •

63 43. PARENTAL { 64

CONSENT?

1 ni YES

21 I NO

F-7NOT APPLICABLE

44. CH:LO-CARE I 65

PLAN?

1 r-IYES

2 I I NO

N NoT APpLiCABLE

45. VOCATIONAL-EDUCATIONAL

INTEREST

1 L j JOB DOT CODE

2 LI FURTHER EDUCATION

3 1 'ARMED FORCES

4 Li UNKNOWN

66-69 46. VERIFICATIONS

n AGE

Li SCHOOL STATUS

LA JUVENILE COURT

RECORD

I 1 ADULT COURT RECORD

I !PUBLIC WELFARE RECIPIENT

LA DRAFT STATUS

,47. I hereby apply for enrollment in the Job Corps. The information I have given in this application is true and correct to the best of my knowledge. I understand that any false statements or lishoneSt - answers will be grounds for

my dismissal and may be punishable by law.

SIGNATURE OF APPLICANT

48. ELIGIBILITY STATUS L7°

1 riELIGIBLE FOR REFERRAL

2 1 I WAIVER REQUESTED FOR CRITERION• 

3 I I NOT ELIGIBLE UNDER CRITERION. 
49. REMARKS

50. I CERTIFY that the information entered on this application is true and complete to the best of my knowledge.

SIGNATURE OF SCREENER

51. NAME OF SCREENING OFFICE

STREET ADDRESS OR RFD CITY AND STATE

ZIP CODE AREA CODE AND TELEPHONE NO.

0E0 FORM 16 (REV. DEC 66) PREVIOUS EDITIONS ARE OBSOLETE.

DATE

52. OFFICE IDENTIFICATION NO. 71-76 80

3

CA,

C.4
34 NOMINATIONS

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Any further questions?

Senator PROUTY. Mr. Chairman, I would like to add that I appreciate very much what Mr. Kelly has said this morning. He has

been helpful. In the past, however, and I am referring to various

operations of the 0E0 and not just the Job Corps, the answers given

us have not been satisfactory to the members of the committee.

We usually have a lot of figures and statistics tossed at us,when

we question them very seriously, which are difficult to understand and

evaluate. I hope that this year we are going to be given factual

information, whether it is good or bad.

We want to see these programs made as effective as they can be,

and it is not our desire to destroy the programs. However, if there

are programs being undertaken now that should not be, or some administrative malpractices, the committee should know about them.

I hope that when you and other members of 0E0 appear later before

the subcommittee, we are going to get the whole picture.

Senator CLARK. May I say, Senator, that is my intention in chairing the subcommittee. I quite frankly resent the allegations in the

columns recently that we are going to conduct a whitewash. We are

going to do no such thing.

Senator PROUTY. I am sorry. I did not hear you.

Senator CLARK. I just said—may I say that it is my intention, as

the chairman of the subcommittee, to do exactly what you said, and

I rather resent the implications in a recent column by Mr. Evans and

Mr. Novak that we were going to conduct a whitewash. We are

going to conduct no such thing.

Senator PROUTY. I rather anticipated that criticism.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, no further questions?

We want to thank you very much, Mr. Kelly.

Your prepared statement will be inserted in the record along with

additional material we have received,

(The material referred to follows:)

PREPARED STATEMENT OF W. P. KELLY, A NOMINEE TO BE AN ASSISTANT

DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee: I am extremely proud and

grateful to appear here today. I am proud because President Johnson has

nominated me for this post. I am grateful because I think this is the best job in

Washington.

The Job Corps is engaged in a program of reclamation—reclamation of the

Nation's most valuable and precious resource—its youth.

All of us have become greatly concerned over the pollution of rivers and streams

and the air we breathe. But we have long been suffering another kind of pollution

which, in my judgment, is more serious. This is the kind that results in hundreds

of thousands of our young people between the ages of 16 and 21 being out of school,

out of work, and out of hope.

This pollution is inflicted by poverty.

The Job Corps is a program which has the most imminent and measurable

impact on poverty. We deal with individual human beings at the most critical

stage of their life. Job Corps is a high payoff program in that what happens to

the individual in terms of education, skills, and social attitudes can be observed

and measured in a relatively short period of time.

As of the first of March of this year, the Job Corps can show for every youngster

enrolled, the following indices of achievement:

—reading and arithmetic ability

—vocational skills

—social development

—work attitudes
NOMINATIONS 35

In addition, for every enrollee who has been in the program, we know the following:

—whether he takes employment

—his starting wage

—returns to school

—or enters the military

Further, as of the first of April, we will know the type of job, measured in terms of the U.S. Dictionary of Occupational Titles.

There were times in the past where Job Corps appeared less than consistent

when disclosing cost information. Let me state—that Job Corps can now show

its costs in every area of operations. These are not fuzzy or ambiguous calcula- tions, but, rather, precise, solid numbers.

For instance, the average cost of transporting a youngster to a Job Corps

Center has moved from $76.13 in June of 1966 to $35.55 during January of 1967,

a savings of $40.58 each trip.

A cost effectiveness program has been initiated in Job Corps Headquarters and

the seven Regional Offices. This cost effectiveness program is aimed, among

other things, at reducing staff travel, consolidation of reports to reduce paper

work, and consolidation of curriculum.

In addition, a cost effectiveness program has been instituted in the Federal

Conservation Centers and in the contractor-operated Urban Centers.

The Job Corps is never going to be cheap. When you deal with the poorest

of the poor, there must be costs. When 80% of the population you serve has

had no previous contact with a doctor or a dentist; when 40% of the enrollees

come to Job Corps unable to read a simple sentence; when more than half are

from broken homes—there will be costs. There are, of course, alternatives.

But $2 million worth of property damage as a result of a riot in the ghetto is

not cheap. It is not prudent economics to continue to maintain a class of people

who, generation after generation because of lack of education and skill, are on

welfare rolls.

The cost of maintaining an individual on welfare over a lifetime is $100,000.

But this is not the only cost to sustain. The fact that he contributes little or

nothing to the gross National Product or to effective consumer demands is likewise a loss.

At this moment, there are 33,313 enrollees in the Job Corps—in 91 Conservation Centers; 11 Men's Urban Centers; 12 Women's Urban Centers; and 2 Special

Centers.

The benefits of this program are not derived exclusively from the performance

and achievement of these youth. There are by-product benefits such as:

—$42,000,000 in Conservation work, including flood and fire control projects,

camp sites, and beautification.

—Job Corps has already provided 84 schools throughout this country portions

of curriculum developed by the Job Corps.

—Job Corps has provided teachers and social workers with both the skill and

knowledge essential to working with poor youth.

The task before us is not easy. Human renewal is never easy. But the alternatives, in my judgment, are unthinkable.

BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH OF WILLIAM P. KELLY, JR.

William P. Kelly, Jr., of Annandale, Virginia, born in Pittsfield, Massachusetts,

June 25, 1924, son of William and Mary Kelly; graduate of Ohio State University

where he received both a B.A. and M.A. in economics; married the former Ruth

Powell of Pittsfield; has six daughters; served in the U.S. Army during World

War II.

Mr. Kelly held various positions with the Department of the Air Force at

Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio, until 1959 when he came to Washington

as Chief of the Procurement and Logistical Assistance Branch of NASA. In

June 1961, appointed Director of Contracts for the Peace Corps and was one of

the very first administrators in that agency. In addition to formally assigned

position as head of the Contracts Division, extended his duties to include recruitment and interviewing of candidates for top-level positions, advising and assisting

in policy-making.

‘.-41 After two years with the Peace Corps, accepted a position with the Agency

for International Development as Associate Assistant Administrator for Procurement Policy. When the President called for the creation of a Task Force

for a war against poverty, helped organize this task force and its successor,
36 NOMINATIONS

the Office of Economic Opportunity. Was appointed Assistant Director for

Management. On December 2, 1966, was appointed as Acting Director for

Job Corps, pending confirmation by the Congress.

ADDITIONAL DETAILS AND SPECIFIC BENEFITS

Bill Kelly's creative and energetic leadership has been demonstrated in a

number of difficult tasks he has performed for 0E0 in the very short period of

eighteen months.

With a contracting staff never exceeding twenty persons, Bill Kelly organized

and directed the negotiation and administration of approximately 900 contracts

for a dollar volume in excess of $150 million. These included contracts with

some of the largest corporate bodies in America, such as the Federal Electric

Corporation, Philco, and Litton Industries. This overwhelmingly successful

contracting effort enabled the Director of 0E0 to launch the massive Job Corps

program within a time frame never before matched by a peace-time operation of

a U.S. Government agency.

During this time, he also organized, staffed, and opened seven regional offices

across the country. Within months of their opening dates, these offices had been

delegated and were capably executing the authority to sign-off on grants to local

sponsors for amounts greater than any other Federal agency had ever before

authorized to its field offices.

Bill Kelly was responsible for implementing procedures which enabled 0E0 to

utilize approximately $30 million worth of excess government property and $25.

million worth of surplus government food for the "war on poverty. Again, this

was a record almost unmatched by any other government agency.

At the same time, Bill Kelly whipped together one of the finest audit organizations in Washington, D.C. During its first year, less than fifteen staff members

working through cross-service arrangements with several other government

agencies were able to perform comprehensive audits and report-out on more than

400 0E0-funded activities—still another record in the annals of government

administration.

While the big things were being done, the little things did not escape the

trained and sensitive eye of this proven administrator. Bill Kelly eliminated

frills in furnishing 0E0 offices such as rugs, drapes credensas, and overstuffed

furniture and consequently saved U.S. taxpayers $300,000 a year.

As Acting Director of the Community Action Program, he oversaw this program's growth from 1,388 grants totalling $262,737,906 to 2,390 grants totalling

$355,379,750 in two and a half months. At the end of his service in this position,

the poor in 1,044 of 3,132 counties in the U.S. were being reached through 898

active Community Action Agencies, plus 130 state level and 125 university

recipients.

SUMMARY OF ACHIEVEMENT

William P. Kelly, Assistant Director for Management of the Office of Economic

Opportunity, has held several key administrative posts during his more than

fourteen years of service with the Federal Government. He has made outstanding contributions to the early success of two major programs begun by the

Government in this decade—the Peace Corps and the War on Poverty.

As Director of Contracts and one of the very first administrators for the Peace

Corps, he organized that office as a separate division within the agency and carried

out its functions in a superb manner. He extended his normal duties to include

helping to recruit and interview candidates for the top Peace Corps positions,

advising and helping to make policy, and, in short, taking a personal and important

part in constructing the foundations for what was then a fledgling agency. After

two years at the Peace Corps, he accepted a position with the Agency for International Development as Associate Assistant Administrator for Procurement Policy.

Eleven months later and a few weeks after the President called for the creation

of a task force for the War on Poverty, Bill Kelly was asked to help organize the

task force and its successor, the Office of Economic Opportunity. He directed

all the management functions of the task force with the same talents that he had

brought to the Peace Corps, plus an inordinate amount of ingenuity needed to

surmount a lack of funds. He attracted key people on a volunteer and lend-lease

basis and drafted the first budget of the Office of Economic Opportunity before

the authorizing legislation was passed on August 20, 1964. Immediately after the

legislation was passed, Bill Kelly was appointed to the position he now holds at

0E0. He has built a highly talented staff of 233 individuals as a result of his
NOMINATIONS 37

unusual ability to attract brilliant nongovernment people and have them work effectively with some of the best professionals with years of government experience. He has personally directed every presentation made by the Director before the Executive and Legislative branches of the Government since the creation of

0E0 and has provided accurate, meaningful, and incisive information that has helped to illuminate the efforts of this agency.

While the Assistant Director for the Community Action Program was hos- pitalized, Bill Kelly shouldered the responsibilities of this extremely large and complex program by serving as its Acting Director for two and a half months.

Mr. KELLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now go into executive session.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m. the committee proceeded to the consideration of further business in executive session.)
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