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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE

NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

PUBLIC COMMENT WEBINAR

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

APRIL 19, 2022

+ + + + +

The Board met via Videoconference, at 

12:00 p.m. EDT, Nate Powell-Palm, Chair, 

presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT

NATHAN POWELL-PALM, Chair

AMY BRUCH

BRIAN CALDWELL

GERARD D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

LIZ GRAZNAK

RICK GREENWOOD

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

ALLISON JOHNSON

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

KYLA SMITH, Secretary

WOOD TURNER

JAVIER ZAMORA
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ALSO PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee

Specialist, National Organic Program 

JARED CLARK, National List Manager, National

Organic Program

DAVID GLASGOW, Associate Deputy

Administrator, National Organic Program

ERIN HEALY, Division Director, Standards,

National Organic Program 

ANDREA HOLM, Materials Specialist, National

Organic Program

DEVON PATTILLO, Acting Assistant Director,

Standards, National Organic Program

JENNIFER TUCKER, Deputy Administrator, National 

Organic Program; Designated Federal Officer
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (12:04 p.m.)

3 MS. ARSENAULT: So welcome everybody 

4 for joining us for the National Organic Standards 

5 Board oral comment webinars, today and Thursday. 

6 It's the beginning of the NOSB meeting which will 

7 continue on into next week. I'm going to go read 

8 through some administrative stuff, so if you're 

9 on the phone with us, we do have a slide on the 

10 screen and I'll just verbally tell you what you're 

11 not seeing on the screen.

12 If you're having online issues, audio 

13 issues, you can always dial in on the phone. The 

14 numbers are on the screen in the chat box, if you're 

15 with us that way. They also appear on the NOSB 

16 meeting webpage where you can find them there. 

17 We ask that you do please stay on mute. The chat 

18 is enabled, so you guys can talk with each other 

19 via chat. If you look at the -- you find your Zoom 

20 taskbar, it's in the center of the task bar. You 

21 can chat with each other, but chats are not part 
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1 of the public record. And if you're a public 

2 commenter, you have to sign up in order to be called 

3 on to speak today.

4 We have closed captioning enabled, and 

5 you can also find that in your Zoom taskbar, a 

6 little to the right, you can turn it on or off for 

7 yourself, so you can see it if you want, and turn 

8 it off if you don't want to see it. You can also 

9 change the font size, if you need it bigger. 

10 Please don't use the raise hand feature. Again, 

11 commenters registered in advance and Nate, the 

12 board chair, will be calling on people in turn.

13 You can customize your Zoom view. So 

14 what you can see on the screen and the upper right 

15 hand side of your Zoom window you'll see nine boxes, 

16 kind of little Brady bunch thing. You can change 

17 what you see on your screen. We are going to pin 

18 my camera, so which will be pointed at the speaker 

19 timer. So that should always appear for 

20 everybody, no matter how you rearrange your view.

21 If you're having technical problems, 
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1 you can always contact Zoom support.zoom.us, in 

2 the upper right hand. They have a contact us 

3 button. And Andrea just chatted that web address 

4 into the chat there. We are recording and have 

5 transcriptionists on the line with us today, and 

6 we're going to post the transcripts on the NOP 

7 website as soon as they're available. It's 

8 usually a couple of weeks after the conclusion of 

9 the board meeting. Next slide, please, Jared.

10 So for speakers, make sure that your 

11 name is displayed in your video tile correctly so 

12 we can find you when it's time for you to speak, 

13 just to make sure you're on the call with us. And 

14 we can unmute you if you're having trouble unmuting 

15 yourself. You should have access to both your mic 

16 and camera and be able to control those yourself. 

17 But we do ask that people please stay on mute just 

18 to keep the background noise down.

19 When you're called on, we're going to 

20 -- you can unmute yourself and then turn your camera 

21 on. If you want, it's optional, you don't have 
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1 to be on camera. The mic is on the bottom left 

2 of the Zoom taskbar. And if you're on the phone 

3 only, you may have to hit, and you don't have a 

4 mute button on your phone, you may have to hit star 

5 6 in order to mute and unmute yourself, it toggles.

6 When you come to the mic, you're going 

7 to state your name and affiliation for the record 

8 at the start of the comment, and then I'll start 

9 the timer. And each commenter has 3 minutes to 

10 speak. We'll use the timer and we're going to test 

11 it during the intro here, just so you guys can hear 

12 what it sounds like. It also will -- there's a 

13 timer on screen, so I'm going to flip over to my 

14 other camera here. So you should be able to see 

15 that right now it's showing 5 seconds, and it's 

16 backwards for me, so hopefully it's right for you 

17 guys. So, after your comment is done, either the 

18 timer's going to go off and tell you you're done, 

19 please finish your sentence. And then Nate will 

20 open it up to the board members to ask you 

21 questions. So you might not go on mute immediately 
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1 after you're done with your comments.

2 All right, I think I am done with 

3 administrative stuff, and I'm going to turn the 

4 mic now over to Jenny Tucker, the National Organic 

5 Program, Deputy Administrator. Jenny, welcome.

6 MS. TUCKER: All right. Thank you, 

7 Michelle. And welcome everyone. I'm Jennifer 

8 Tucker, Deputy Administrator of the National 

9 Organic Program. Welcome first to all our 

10 National Organic Standards Board members. This 

11 is our fourth online meeting together, and we are 

12 happy to continue to have such an engaged audience 

13 for this forum. I would particularly like to 

14 welcome our four new board members. We have Liz 

15 Graznak from Missouri, we have Allison Johnson from 

16 California, Dr. Dilip Nandwani from Tennessee, and 

17 Javier Zamora from California. They started their 

18 work on the board this spring. We're going to give 

19 them a round of Zoom applause like this, which is 

20 waving your hands in front of the camera to applaud. 

21 So welcome to all of our new and our returning 
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1 board members.

2 For all our public commenters, thank 

3 you again for engaging in this process with us. 

4 I also thank our audience who are here to bear 

5 witness to this public meeting process. We are 

6 glad that you are here. This webinar opens a 

7 series of virtual webinars that will occur over 

8 multiple days, 2 days this week, and 3 days next 

9 week, meeting access information for all meeting 

10 segments is posted on the NOSB meeting page on the 

11 USDA website. Transcripts for all segments will 

12 be posted once completed.

13 This meeting, like other meetings of 

14 the National Organic Standards Board, will be run 

15 based on the Federal Advisory Committee Act and 

16 the Board's Policy and Procedures Manual. I will 

17 act as the Designated Federal Officer for all 

18 meeting segments. Nate Powell-Palm, our new board 

19 chair will take the helm for this session. Before 

20 we start, let's give Nate a round of applause in 

21 advance for a great meeting. And Nate, 
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1 congratulations on your board chairmanship.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Okay.

3 MS. TUCKER: As I noted at the start 

4 of the last NOSB meeting, in an open transparent 

5 process, mutual respect is critical. We do ask 

6 you in advance to avoid personal attacks and 

7 disparagement, please engage with grace. To 

8 close, I thank the National Organic Program team. 

9 This is an amazing team that I am honored and 

10 privileged to work with every single day. 

11 Michelle keeps this world spinning for us. We also 

12 have Jared Clark, Devon Pattillo, Andrea Holm, Dave 

13 Glasgow, and our Standards Director, Erin Healy. 

14 So big round of applause to both program staff 

15 and the board and participants and public 

16 commenters. So thank you all of you. I am now 

17 going to hand the mic back for a roll call of NOSB 

18 members and NOP staff. And Michelle, I believe 

19 I'm handing it back to you. Is that correct?

20 MS. ARSENAULT: Off the speaker timer 

21 there. Nate Powell-Palm?
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Present. And 

2 good morning from Montana.

3 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning. 

4 Mindee? I can't see everybody now. So I'll 

5 listen to your --

6 MEMBER JEFFERY: Present. Thank you.

7 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Mindee. Kyla 

8 Smith?

9 MEMBER SMITH: I'm here. Good 

10 morning.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, Kyla.

12 MS. SMITH: Afternoon, I guess it is 

13 now outside.

14 MS. ARSENAULT: Good day, good day. 

15 That works. Amy Brooke?

16 MEMBER BRUCH: Good morning, 

17 everybody.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Brian Caldwell?

19 MEMBER CALDWELL: Here.

20 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Brian. Jerry 

21 D'Amore?
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1 MEMBER D'AMORE: Here as well.

2 MS. ARSENAULT: I'm going to call 

3 Carolyn Dimitri, but I think Carolyn's going to 

4 be a little delayed joining us. Great. Liz 

5 Graznak?

6 MEMBER GRAZNAK: Present. Good 

7 morning from mid-Missouri.

8 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome, Liz. Rick 

9 Greenwood?

10 MEMBER GREENWOOD: Present.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Okay. Kim Huseman?

12 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hello. Good 

13 morning.

14 MS. ARSENAULT: Allison Johnson?

15 MEMBER JOHNSON: Present. Good 

16 morning. Clunky technology.

17 MS. ARSENAULT: Help is in the room. 

18 We understand. Dilip Nandwani?

19 MEMBER NANDWANI: Good morning from 

20 Tennessee. Thank you.

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, Dilip. 
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1 Logan Petrey?

2 MEMBER PETREY: Hi. Present. Thank 

3 you.

4 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome Logan twice. 

5 Wood Turner?

6 MEMBER TURNER: I'm here. Good 

7 morning.

8 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello. Good morning, 

9 Wood. And Javier Zamora?

10 MEMBER ZAMORA: Buenos dias a todos 

11 here from beautiful rainy Watsonville, California.

12 MS. ARSENAULT: Excellent. Thank 

13 you. All right. So Nate, everyone is here. 

14 Carolyn, I expect to be joining us shortly, so we 

15 can -- I'll give her a shout out when she joins, 

16 if you want. Right. And Jenny already introduced 

17 NOP staff. So I'm going to hand the mic to you 

18 now, Nate, to take over the rest of the meeting. 

19 And at some point Nate will test the speaker timer 

20 just so people can hear it and kind of know what 

21 to listen for.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sounds good. I 

2 heard it was upgraded to be very pleasant. So 

3 hello everybody, I'm Nate Powell-Palm, I am a 

4 farmer based in Montana, just outside at Bozeman, 

5 and I am stoked to be here with you all today. 

6 It's going to be a really great meeting, and I'm 

7 excited to hear from our community and have the 

8 opportunity for our new members especially, to get 

9 their feet wet with this process and learn how and 

10 why organics is so great, through this feedback 

11 process.

12 When we get started off here, it's just 

13 a quick reminder that we actually do have a policy 

14 and procedures manual about public comments. So 

15 all speakers who will be recognized, signed up 

16 during the registration period, persons must give 

17 their names and affiliations for the record at the 

18 beginning of their public comment. Proxy speakers 

19 are not permitted. Individuals providing public 

20 comment shall refrain from making any personal 

21 attacks or remarks that might impugn the character 
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1 of any individual.

2 Members of the public are asked to 

3 define clearly and succinctly the issues they wish 

4 to present before the board. This will give the 

5 NOSB members a comprehensive understanding of the 

6 speaker's concerns. I'll call on speakers in the 

7 order of the schedule and we'll announce the next 

8 person or two so that they can be prepared. Please 

9 remember to state your name and your affiliation, 

10 and then we'll start the timer. Board members will 

11 indicate to me if they have questions, and I'll 

12 call on them. Only NOSB members are allowed to 

13 ask questions.

14 All right. So, let's get started. 

15 Because our first member is going to be our first 

16 commenter, former member, is going to be Steve Ela. 

17 And so real quick, Steve, before we get started, 

18 Michelle, would you play the timer real quick, so 

19 we can hear the chime of the end of a comment? 

20 Thank you.

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Could you guys hear 
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1 that very well?

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kind of quiet, but 

3 I think we'll get it.

4 MS. ARSENAULT: Right. All right. 

5 The timer is on screen as well, so you'll be able 

6 to see it counting down. Nate, I just want to add 

7 one thing, I forgot to mention that if you have 

8 a slide deck, we'll make sure it's up on screen

9 before you get started with your comment. We'll 

10 get all settled first before I start the timer.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. If any 

12 commenters are going to be joining exclusively by 

13 phone and you're not able to name yourself, please 

14 send Michelle a message. If you're on, we're going 

15 to be calling folks out. And if we don't see you, 

16 we're going to skip over you, but we're going to 

17 try to give you ample opportunity to make yourself 

18 known. All right. If we're ready, the floor is 

19 yours. Steve.

20 MR. ELA: Good morning, everybody. 

21 I'm Steve Ela, organic fruit farmer in little town 
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1 of Hotchkiss in Western Colorado. Really organic 

2 farmer, but I also am sometimes advisor of the 

3 National Organic Coalition. So with that, I would 

4 like to start my comments. Really I want to speak 

5 on the highly soluble nitrogen issue, but before 

6 I do that I want to address something with PDS.

7 I would like to propose a change to the 

8 policy and procedures manual that gives ex-NOSB 

9 members an extra 30 seconds in public comment for 

10 every year they served on the board. So I'll let 

11 you take that under consideration. And then with 

12 that, I'll jump into the highly soluble nutrient 

13 side. I'd like to welcome the new board members 

14 and say hi to all the old board members. For the 

15 new board members, I know there is a lot of time 

16 required, and some of it is dealing with some sets 

17 that seem really mundane, but I hope that in your 

18 5 years of tenure you will have several topics that 

19 you feel like really make a difference to the 

20 organic community. And with that, I think the 

21 highly soluble nutrient, nitrogen proposal is one 
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1 of those topics.

2 The basis of it really as a practice 

3 standard will govern the nature of organic farming 

4 into the future. One of the big issues with it 

5 is to limit the number of highly soluble nutrients 

6 that are applied and honor the mantra of feeding 

7 the soil. Organic farming has been based on that 

8 and is not a nutrient substitution process. And 

9 by limiting the highly soluble nutrients that are 

10 applied through a practice standard that will help 

11 to honor that mantra of which OFA was originally 

12 designed.

13 One of the comments has been that this 

14 standard is not necessary at this time. However, 

15 as was evidenced by the Ammonia Extract petition, 

16 there are new and novel materials coming out. And 

17 so this is needed for the future to limit the number 

18 of highly soluble nutrients that can be used until 

19 they're able to be submitted by petition and 

20 prohibited, similar to the ammonium extract 

21 petition that we've just received last meeting. 
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1 The other comment was that this overburdens 

2 farmers with too much paperwork, and that'll be 

3 difficult for certifiers.

4 My response to that is that if you do 

5 not use materials that are less than three-to-one 

6 carbon and nitrogen ratio, all you have to do is 

7 check the box and say I don't use this, and you're 

8 done. There is no burden whatsoever if you use 

9 materials above that three-to-one ratio. If you 

10 use them below, then just like with sodium nitrate 

11 in the past, it is easy to document that, 

12 certifiers, nutrient manufacturers, material 

13 review organizations will all have incentive to 

14 list that three-to-one ratio, and so it should be 

15 fairly clear once, this system gets started.

16 And finally, I'm going to address the 

17 law of return and recycling. Organics is 

18 dedicated to recycling nutrients. However, that 

19 does not mean we have to recycle every nutrient. 

20 For example, we don't recycle bio solids or 

21 colored papers from newspaper. So we do recycle 
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1 things, but it is really the whole product. And 

2 just like when you eat dinner, you're looking for 

3 wholesome foods and other things; you're not just 

4 looking for a single vitamin to feed yourself. 

5 So organic is dedicated to that soil, it is 

6 dedicated to recycling of the whole nutrient, and 

7 I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have 

8 about this topic.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Excellent time. 

10 Good precedent to set, right on the money. 

11 Members, do we have any questions for Steve? 

12 Logan?

13 MEMBER PETREY: Hi, Steve. You knew 

14 I'd be asking a question.

15 MR. ELA: Of course.

16 MEMBER PETREY: I'll keep it simple. 

17 Thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. Good 

18 to see you. So you mentioned highly soluble 

19 nutrients and not so much, or -- I mean, I know 

20 we're talking about nitrogen here, but you did 

21 reference nutrients a few times. And so, do you 
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1 think that this rule should expand to all nutrients 

2 and not just nitrogen, including calcium, boron 

3 and other highly soluble nutrients? Should we 

4 start expanding onto that and putting limits on?

5 MR. ELA: You know, the nutrients 

6 designation is a habit, really this pertains to 

7 fertilizers as it should. That was from the 

8 comments of last fall where people said we should 

9 limit it. I don't think I'm going to go down that 

10 path of all highly soluble nutrients. Just, I 

11 mean, we already do with calcium fluoride and some 

12 of the other nutrients. So there -- you know, 

13 there is a precedent for that, but really this 

14 motion is about highly soluble nitrogen 

15 fertilizers and their impact on the soil. I think 

16 some of the other nutrients are -- like calcium 

17 fluoride tend to be more foliar nutrients, so it's 

18 a bit of a different story. So I'll just stick 

19 to the nitrogen side of it right now, just to keep 

20 it more focused.

21 MEMBER PETREY: Okay. Fair. Thank 
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1 you.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy?

3 MEMBER BRUCH: Sure. Hi, Steve. 

4 Good to see you again. Thank you so much for your 

5 continued contributions to the organic community 

6 and your previous board service. I really 

7 appreciate your written comments and your current 

8 oral comments. This is a really important topic. 

9 You did bring in the fact of vitamins and just 

10 kind of how we can digest this principle for --

11 I mean, maybe non-farmers, just the complexities 

12 of what vitamins do to the body versus a complex 

13 diet. So I wanted to give you a little bit of time 

14 to kind of elaborate on just the solubility portion 

15 of nitrogen versus the protein component of 

16 nitrogen.

17 MR. ELA: Sure. Thanks, Amy. I know 

18 I've talked with a number of people that wonder 

19 where the three-to-one ratio comes from, and really 

20 that ratio is right at the break point between 

21 proteins and amino acids, and just more of a pure 
22

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1 nitrogen in the form of nitrate and ammonia. And 

2 the basis of organic agriculture has always been 

3 to feed the soil, and by feeding the soil protein 

4 or even amino acid, it means the soil biota have 

5 to break that down into -- to make the nitrogen 

6 available as a plant, available nutrient. And so 

7 that three-to-one carbon and nitrogen ratio really 

8 is a break where we feed the soil more complex 

9 nutrients and that soil and the biota has to respond 

10 with that complex nutrient. And that's always 

11 been a mantra of organic agriculture.

12 When we go below a three-to-one ratio 

13 such as for nitrate and ammonia, then we're really 

14 into the kind of the input substitution mode. And 

15 that is something that organic agriculture has not 

16 been about. We really are dedicated to ecosystems 

17 and soils processes and not just input 

18 substitutions. So analogy for humans is if we, 

19 you know, we take whole foods, you know, that helps 

20 our gut flora, that's really the way to adequate 

21 nutrition rather than just supplementing or just 
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1 eating a vitamin. The 20 percent ratio does let 

2 in emergency use or cold soils, it does allow some 

3 use of these things, just like you might take a 

4 extra vitamin and when you're short of something. 

5 But it doesn't allow for the whole use of this, 

6 and it also helps put some guardrails on the system. 

7 It very explicitly states for manufacturers as 

8 they develop some of these products what the 

9 potential is. It also means it gives the NOSB time 

10 to review these things before they're widely used. 

11 So I think it helps set appropriate boundaries. 

12 But ultimately, it's just really, you know, it's 

13 eating well and it's feeding the soil well and --

14 versus an input substitution model. So, I think 

15 for that it's really important for the future of 

16 organics.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Steve. 

18 Appreciate it.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Anybody else? 

20 Questions for Steve? All right. Well, thank you 

21 so much, Steve.
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1 MR. ELA: Good luck to everybody.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

3 up, Yu Yi Tan, and I don't think we have seen you, 

4 if you're here Yu Yi on the list or on the -- present 

5 in the Zoom. So please speak up if you are here, 

6 otherwise we'll move on. All right. And if you 

7 are here and are having tech difficulties, please 

8 just send an e-mail to Michelle, and we can try 

9 to put you in at the end there.

10 All right. Next up is going to be Terry 

11 Shistar with Beyond Pesticides; after that, Jay 

12 Feldman with Beyond Pesticides; and after that, 

13 Youngblood with NOC.

14 Terry? And I think we're going to have 

15 a presentation pulled up for you. Here we go. 

16 Thank you, Andrea.

17 MS. SHISTAR: Okay. Okay. My name is 

18 Terry Shistar, and I'm on the board of directors 

19 of Beyond Pesticides. This is kind of highlights 

20 of our comprehensive written comments. Please 

21 deny the petition for CPC, a toxic quaternary 
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1 ammonia compound that is being petitioned for use 

2 on raw organic poultry. Quats include several 

3 toxic sanitizers and disinfectants, as well as the 

4 highly toxic herbicides paraquat and diquat. CPC 

5 residues have been discovered on treated surfaces 

6 and poultry skin, exposing workers and consumers 

7 to unlabeled pesticide residues. It is 

8 unnecessary in organic production.

9 Please pass the proposal, limiting the 

10 use of highly soluble nitrogen fertilizers to 

11 protect organic integrity, consistent with the 

12 principle of feeding the soil, not the plant. 

13 Awareness is growing about the environmental and 

14 health impacts of plastic and the microplastic 

15 particles to which it degrades. The NOSB should 

16 initial action to eliminate all uses of plastic 

17 and organic production and handling, including 

18 packaging. Biodegradable, bioplastic mulch 

19 should not be relisted.

20 Many NOSB recommendations have not been 

21 addressed by NOP. It is your role in the NOSB to 
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1 guide NOP and ensure that the conventional 

2 industrial agriculture clients of USDA do not 

3 control the organic program. Now, NOP has come 

4 to the organic community with a request for input 

5 concerning the priorities to be assigned to 

6 recommendations it has failed to complete.

7 The organic community has spoken on 

8 these issues, but NOP has not done its job. It's 

9 improper for NOP to now pit segments of the organic 

10 community against one another. NOP must do its 

11 job with no excuses. It must ensure that OMB, for 

12 example, understands the structure of the organic 

13 program, including why nationalist changes as 

14 material sunset must give higher priority to 

15 completing NOSB recommendations. It is NOP's 

16 responsibility to just get it done.

17 Appendix A of our big picture comments 

18 contains our analysis about standing NOSB 

19 recommendations. In classifying its progress, 

20 NOP creates some categories for which it has 

21 decided to ignore the recommendations closed or 
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1 indefinitely delayed implementation on hold. On 

2 hold includes prohibition of aeroponics, 

3 clarifying emergency use of synthetic 

4 parasiticide, all recommendations concerning 

5 excluded methods, the procedure for examining 

6 ancillary substances and ammonia extracts.

7 Closed includes containers, 

8 eliminating the incentive to convert native 

9 ecosystems to organic crop production and sodium 

10 nitrate. In addition, other recommendations like 

11 the 2010 recommendation on greenhouse production 

12 have been ignored. Please see Jim Riddle's 

13 comments concerning that. Thank you.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

15 you so much. And bear with me, everyone, while 

16 we have this screen up. There we go. Okay. Any 

17 questions for Terry? All right. Seeing none. 

18 Thank you, Terry.

19 MS. SHISTAR: Thank you.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up will be Jay 

21 Feldman, followed by Abby Youngblood, and Alice 
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1 Runde with NOC, after Abby. Jay?

2 MR. FELDMAN: Hi. I'm Jay Feldman, 

3 executive director of Beyond Pesticides, and a 

4 former NOSB member. Welcome to new, and hi to 

5 returning board members. Thank you for your 

6 service. Please see our extensive written 

7 comments on this meeting's agenda.

8 Today, I'd like to explain our 

9 perspective on the NOSB's role and why we have been 

10 engaged with organic for over 40 years. 

11 Leadership, this is why the NOSB exists, a 

12 stakeholder board empowered by Congress to lead 

13 USDA on organic transition and standard-setting 

14 to lead the transition away from 

15 chemical-intensive agriculture. Your leadership 

16 is critically important in the midst of existential 

17 public health threats from toxic-chemical-induced 

18 diseases, biodiversity collapse and the climate 

19 emergency. The need for structural changes or 

20 systemic change was in effect recognized on the 

21 first day of the Biden administration with 
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1 executive memorandum on modernizing regulatory 

2 review. It recognizes the need for our holistic 

3 approach to government action, requiring agencies 

4 "to ensure that regulatory initiatives, promote 

5 public health and safety, economic growth, social 

6 welfare, racial justice, environmental 

7 stewardship, human dignity equity, and the 

8 interest of future generations." 

9 In eliminating fossil-fuel-based 

10 pesticides and fertilizers, we achieve this. Stop 

11 hazardous exposure to toxics with 

12 multi-generational adverse effects, improve the 

13 health and welfare of communities, protect people 

14 of color and protecting farm workers where 

15 pesticides are used.

16 And fenceline communities where toxic 

17 pesticides are produced. Protect and enhance 

18 ecosystems and utilize ecosystem services. 

19 Respect life as opposed to setting allowable levels 

20 of harm and inequitable consequences. Every 

21 technical review that informs your actions must 
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1 include a cradle-to-grave analysis for you to do 

2 this and fulfill your statutory mandate in 

3 determining allowable materials on the national 

4 lens.

5 Last week, the deputy administrator for 

6 USDA's NOP said that the Office of Management and 

7 Budget is a roadblock to your decisions. The 

8 failure of USDA to follow through on your 

9 recommendations is a national scandal and tragedy. 

10 And in our view, fails to comply with the law. 

11 As the NOSB, we urge you to call out, reject and 

12 stand up to the undermining of your work and false 

13 arguments of economic dislocation. It harms 

14 consumer and farmer confidence in the organic label 

15 and the growth of the organic sector.

16 With this, USDA only helps to elevate 

17 the chemical industry, industrialized 

18 agriculture, factory farms, abusive working 

19 conditions and deadly diseases, and cripples the 

20 foundation of organic principle of continuous 

21 improvement.
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1 Remember the law's no additions clause 

2 that prohibits the secretary without your 

3 recommendation from allowing nationalist 

4 substances not recommended by the board. Embrace 

5 your role in providing advice to the secretary, 

6 bring your voice to this forum and the NOSB 

7 agenda-setting, use the power of the board 

8 resolutions.

9 And keep pushing back against an agency 

10 that still invasions organic as producing niche 

11 specialty crops, rather than the original vision 

12 in the statute, the cutting edge for the future 

13 of agriculture and all land management, ensuring 

14 a sustainable -- thank you.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Jay. 

16 Appreciate your comments.

17 MR. FELDMAN: Thanks.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And I see Brian has 

19 a question.

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. Thanks for 

21 your comments. I have two different points here. 
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1 And the first one is whether Beyond Pesticides 

2 has sort of contamination issues like PFAS and BPA 

3 in packaging and those things on their agenda for 

4 continued, you know, examination and suggestions. 

5 And the second one is when an economic analysis 

6 is done on the effects of practices or products, 

7 I wonder if Beyond Pesticides has any 

8 recommendations about how to assess the effect of 

9 -- the possible effect of kind of loss of confidence 

10 in the entire label.

11 In other words, kind of a much bigger 

12 picture than just maybe a specific effect on one 

13 segment of the industry or something like that. 

14 So those two points, please.

15 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. You know, thank 

16 you for your questions, Brian. You know, the whole 

17 issue of legacy chemicals has been top of mind in 

18 the formulation of the statute and the ongoing 

19 implementation. And we struggled with, you know, 

20 in eyes on the board, we consistently struggle with 

21 background levels, as we call it, right, and how 
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1 to incorporate an evaluation of those levels into 

2 allowable products, you know, that achieve the 

3 label.

4 And there are clear, you know, 

5 indicators of threshold, levels of harm, which 

6 we're still working out with PFAS. Obviously, you 

7 know, EPA is working on this as we speak. We've 

8 been struggling with this with DDT and DDE, the 

9 breakdown product for generations now. And so I 

10 think our, you know, under this banner of 

11 continuous improvement, which we always talk 

12 about, we have to figure out what the threshold 

13 of elevated residues and threshold of elevated harm 

14 is when it comes to these background levels.

15 We've often used enforcement action 

16 levels that are set by EPA and FDA, as enforcement 

17 levels, as we ratchet down allowable residues in 

18 the, you know, in the food supply. The point here 

19 is, however, that we can't put organic at an 

20 economic disadvantage when we are essentially 

21 living in the toxic soup of past mistakes. And 
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1 on the thing that we have to stop, I think is this 

2 ongoing contamination from drift, from runoff, 

3 from, you know, volatility and airborne transport.

4 And we have to stop allowing that to 

5 impose harm on organic production and organic 

6 growers. And this is where I think the NOSB can 

7 be very helpful in talking about chemical trespass 

8 and how it's undermining consumer confidence in 

9 the production practices on organic farms, no fault 

10 of the organic farmer or the organic processor.

11 We have to get more engaged in this as 

12 a community and be more assertive in stopping that 

13 non-target drift in all different forms. So I'm 

14 not sure there's an easy answer to the question. 

15 I mean, we're struggling this -- Maine, we just 

16 have a piece on our website today about the 

17 struggles in the state of Maine and an attempt to 

18 work with farmers and reimburse farmers to the 

19 harm, no fault of their own.

20 On the economics of all of this, this 

21 is always a challenge. You know, we think of three 
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1 pillars when we talk about regulation under organic 

2 standards, we think about, you know, issues of 

3 adverse effects, issues of compatibility with 

4 organic systems and what that means to the soil, 

5 et cetera. And then we think about essentially, 

6 you know, are these materials really essential to 

7 organic production.

8 And that's where I think the board has 

9 to look carefully at what is needed and what is 

10 not needed. But remember, as you make that 

11 evaluation, whether you're talking about soluble 

12 fertility or anything else, you can't allow that 

13 to trump the other issues of harm and compatibility 

14 with organic systems.

15 So to preserve the value of the label 

16 and public trust in that label, we have to think 

17 always comprehensively, yes, the economics factors 

18 into that, but it has to factor into that in 

19 conjunction with the other factors under review. 

20 Thanks for your question. It's a complex 

21 question.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Thank 

2 you so much for asking that, Brian.

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks very much.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

5 up we have Abby Youngblood followed by Alice Runde, 

6 followed by Christie Badger.

7 Abby, floor is yours.

8 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Good afternoon. I'm 

9 Abby Youngblood, executive director at the 

10 National Organic Coalition. And I would like to 

11 start by discussing two critically important 

12 issues that the NOSB is considering at this 

13 meeting.

14 First, NOC strongly supports the NOSB 

15 proposal to limit fertilizers with 

16 carbon-to-nitrogen ratios of three-to-one or less. 

17 We think passing this proposal is fundamental to 

18 protecting the integrity of the organic program 

19 and advancing organic as a climate-smart-system 

20 of agriculture.

21 As time goes by, more soluble crop 
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1 fertilizers that do nothing to feed the soil are 

2 hitting the market. These materials allow farmers 

3 to sidestep the soil health requirements and the 

4 organic regulations. The NOSB must act now to 

5 regulate these highly concentrated and available 

6 sources of nitrogen as a group. The development 

7 of these fertilizers is taking place at a fast and 

8 furious pace, and it may become difficult to spot 

9 each of these new fertilizers.

10 This proposal lays out a clear and 

11 enforceable plan to restrict the widespread 

12 reliance on highly soluble nitrogen fertilizers 

13 in organic production. The second critical issue 

14 that NOSB is voting on this spring is excluded 

15 methods. NOC strongly supports the NOSB 

16 recommendation for a formal guidance document from 

17 the National Organic Program. We agree with the 

18 addition of self-fusion and protoplast fusion as 

19 outlined with one small suggestion regarding the 

20 definition.

21 On another topic, I want to urge NOSB 
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1 members to pay close attention to the annual peer 

2 review audits at the National Organic Program. 

3 This is the mechanism for oversight over the NOP's 

4 accreditation process, and the NOSB should take 

5 a more active role in evaluating the results of 

6 these reports and flagging issues of concern.

7 At the NOP's request, for this meeting 

8 the NOSB reviewed a risk mitigation table related 

9 to real and perceived conflicts of interest. 

10 While the information in this table is important, 

11 it's the tip of the iceberg when addressing 

12 conflicts of interest to mitigate risk within the 

13 certification process.

14 We encourage the NOP and the NOSB to 

15 continue to address risk mitigation in a more 

16 systematic way. NOC also submitted comments this 

17 spring to the National Organic Program, because 

18 we are deeply concerned about USDA's failure to 

19 implement dozens of critically important NOSB 

20 recommendations over the past two decades. The 

21 process is fundamentally broken, and significant 
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1 reforms are urgently needed. In our comments we 

2 describe 12 recommendations to bring greater 

3 accountability and transparency to the NOP's 

4 process for implementing NOSB recommendations.

5 We urge the NOSB to use your platform 

6 to communicate directly with the secretary and USDA 

7 officials about the need to clear the NOSB backlog 

8 and make reforms to the process going forward. 

9 Thank you so much for considering these comments.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think that's the 

11 winner so far for timing, so excellent work. Any 

12 questions for Abby? Thank you, Abby. Really 

13 appreciate your time and comments.

14 Next up is Alice Runde with NOC, 

15 followed by Christie Badger and then Russ Housser. 

16 Alice?

17 MS. RUNDE: Good afternoon. My name 

18 is Alice Runde; I'm the coalition manager for the 

19 National Organic Coalition. My comments today 

20 pertain to racial equity, technical support and 

21 research priorities. On racial equity, there is 
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1 increasing amount of evidence regarding the 

2 persistent structural racism in our agricultural 

3 systems, including organic, which has excluded 

4 most black, indigenous and other farmers of color 

5 from farm ownership and participation in organic 

6 certification.

7 To make sure this topic receives the 

8 time and attention it deserves, we ask the NOSB 

9 to establish a diversity, equity and inclusion 

10 subcommittee to lead this work on the part of the 

11 board. The subcommittee's future recommendations 

12 could include changes that would make the 

13 certification process more accessible to farmers 

14 of color, make organic food more affordable and 

15 available, and ensure that organic farming pays 

16 living wages for farm workers and farmers.

17 Recent research shows that the cost of 

18 organic certification is a challenge for organic 

19 producers, and even more so for bi-crop farmers. 

20 The NOSB should strongly advocate for 

21 well-functioning and well-funded and 
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1 well-publicized organic certification cost share 

2 program.

3 We encourage the NOSB to ask the NOP 

4 to establish structure and processes that not only 

5 invites but also truly supports black, indigenous 

6 and other stakeholders of color to join the NOSB 

7 and be able to fully partake in NOSB activities.

8 The support could include cultural 

9 sensitivity or equity training for NOSB members, 

10 but also appropriate technical support. On 

11 technical support, NOC appreciates the board's 

12 work on this important topic, providing support 

13 to NOSB members with broad to work full of potential 

14 NOSB members, alleviating some of the barriers to 

15 participation. It would make a very challenging 

16 job more manageable.

17 We want the board to be appropriately 

18 representative of the Organic Community. It is 

19 important to fit the assistance to the needs of 

20 the individual NOSB members and to ensure the 

21 autonomy of the members' voice. The autonomy is 
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1 threatened if assistants are hired by USDA. The 

2 NOSB should be able to choose who they would like 

3 for assistance.

4 The NOSB should also regard the public 

5 at large as a part of its support team to use of 

6 the open docket. We believe that there is value 

7 in the open docket, and that with additional 

8 assistance NOSB members could make use of this 

9 tool.

10 Finally, on research priorities, NOC 

11 thanks the material subcommittee for its work in 

12 identifying research priorities. While there are 

13 particular challenges to conducting both 

14 participatory research and on-farm research in 

15 various forms, NOC notes the importance of 

16 researchers partnering with farmers to engage in 

17 the examination of organic systems as they relate 

18 to organic as a climate change solution.

19 There is so much more to climate-smart 

20 agriculture than carbon sequestration. We 

21 encourage the board to add the following topics 
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1 to the research list, pastor research, 

2 conservation tele system, P5, alternative to BPA, 

3 GE and organic crop coexistence, and various 

4 specifications for black, indigenous, Latinx, 

5 Asian, and other research farming communities.

6 All research should be approached 

7 through an equity lens, from the research design 

8 to results and interpretation.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

10 for your comments. Any questions for Alice? All 

11 right. Thank you very much, Alice. Next up we 

12 have Christie Badger followed by --

13 PARTICIPANT: Hey, Jerry has a 

14 question --

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, I apologize. 

16 Thank you for catching that. Jerry, all yours. 

17 Oh, you're on mute, Jerry.

18 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you. And not 

19 specifically a question, but I just wanted to give 

20 a bit of a shout out to Alice and her group for 

21 the work that they did on the NOSB technical 
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1 support. It was well-thought-out and 

2 appreciated. Thank you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Jerry.

4 All right. Next up we have Christie 

5 Badger followed by Russ Hauser and then Amalie 

6 Lipstreu.

7 Christie? Oh, you're on mute, 

8 Christie.

9 MS. BADGER: Thank you. Thanks, and 

10 nice to see everyone. I'm Christie Badger, and 

11 I'm a consultant with the National Organic 

12 Coalition. Thank you for your time and service 

13 on the board.

14 I'll start with oversight improvement 

15 to deter fraud. On the inclusion of crop acreage 

16 on organic certificates, we are supportive, but 

17 suggest a sound and sensible approach as outlined 

18 in our written comments. The number of animals 

19 in livestock operations should also be listed on 

20 certificates, allowing for the ratio of animals 

21 to acres of pasture to be considered.
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1 Annotation suggestions. We encourage 

2 the NOSB to include an ongoing work agenda item 

3 regarding annotation changes to be considered 

4 outside of the sunset review process. In order 

5 to do that, there's a need for a guidance on 

6 annotations, a reference on how they should be 

7 written, to allow for consistency and clarity. 

8 This work would address one of the most prevalent 

9 issues we deal with today regarding certification, 

10 inconsistencies among certifiers, by providing 

11 better clarity for interpretation and allowance 

12 for use.

13 Carbon dioxide proposal. Send it back 

14 to subcommittee. The petition involves two 

15 different uses as an acidifying agent in irrigation 

16 water in which the pH is high and as a soil or plant 

17 amendment. At the fall 2021 meeting, this 

18 proposal was sent back to subcommittee to address 

19 the second issue. Unfortunately, the spring 2022 

20 proposal includes no discussion regarding CO2 as 

21 a plant growth enhancer, yet again.
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1 CPC, we support the recommendation of 

2 the handling subcommittee, the petition should be 

3 rejected. This petition does serve to point out 

4 an important issue that needs to be addressed, 

5 however. The notes within the handling scope are 

6 referred to as ancillary substances.

7 While the NOSB made a recommendation 

8 regarding how to handle such substances in spring 

9 2016, the NOP has failed to act on this 

10 recommendation. Currently, the NOSB has no 

11 criteria on how to act on this petition, and 

12 therefore the petition could not move forward.

13 Phosphoric acid annotation change. 

14 Phosphoric acid poses health and environmental 

15 hazards, it's not necessary and is incompatible 

16 with organic practices. The additional use should 

17 be denied.

18 Tall oil petition. The petition is for 

19 the use of distilled tall oil as a so-called inert 

20 ingredient in organic crop and livestock 

21 production. Currently the NOP has failed to act 
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1 on the NOSB recommendations that would provide a 

2 framework for addressing inerts. Therefore, the 

3 NOSB has no criteria to act on this petition, and 

4 the petition cannot move forward. Thank you so 

5 much.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I see we have Amy 

7 has her hand up.

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Morning. Thank 

9 you, Christie, for your oral comments just now, 

10 and then kind of the whole gamut of NOC and all 

11 your comments, so I really appreciate it. You 

12 mentioned consistency and clarity is very 

13 important, and I would agree with that, it's 

14 important across the whole community.

15 Abby mentioned that HSN, the highly 

16 soluble nitrogen practice standard is clear from 

17 NOC's point of view. So that was helped to hear 

18 that. The one thing I wanted to ask you on the 

19 annotation piece, I think that's a great addition 

20 to your comments, this living document about some 

21 of the work in progress on annotations that need 
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1 to be addressed. Is it possible to maybe work 

2 through a prioritization list on that? I think 

3 they're probably all important to do to tomorrow, 

4 but just so we can potentially balance, you know, 

5 those needs, in addition to the other work agenda 

6 items, I think it would be helpful to maybe get 

7 a priority list.

8 MS. BADGER: Amy, thanks for asking. 

9 And I think that if that is something that you 

10 guys think would be helpful, we could certainly 

11 do that. I think we intentionally didn't do 

12 anything like that, thinking that, there might be 

13 areas of interest. You know, somebody on the board 

14 might say oh, I'm interested in this one. Hey, 

15 how about we address this one next meeting?

16 But we can certainly, you know, easily 

17 do something like that. And then you guys can look 

18 at them and skip over as you see fit or whatnot. 

19 But thanks for asking about that, and we just 

20 thought that it could be helpful. Every time we 

21 review sunset materials we, a lot, suggest, and 
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1 others do as well, oh, an annotation change would 

2 be helpful here or -- and then they don't get me 

3 because they're outside of the sunset process. 

4 So we were just trying to kind of put forth another 

5 one of those low-hanging fruit items, because there 

6 are a lot of heavy lifts that you guys work on, 

7 but this one is, would be a little bit lighter lift, 

8 maybe.

9 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you. Appreciate 

10 that, Christie.

11 MS. TUCKER: Is everybody else frozen, 

12 or am I?

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Oh, I can hear you.

14 MS. TUCKER: Okay. It looks like 

15 Nate's frozen. I'm not sure.

16 MS. ARSENAULT: He just did text and 

17 say everything froze --

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, it is frozen. Did 

19 you get back, Nate?

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: My apologies. 

21 I'm back.
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1 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, great.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

3 questions for Christie? Thank you, Amy.

4 All right. Thank you so much, 

5 Christie, for all of your work.

6 MS. BADGER: Thank you.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And for always 

8 packing so much into your comments, and I really 

9 appreciate it. No time wasted.

10 Next up we've got Russ Hauser, followed 

11 by Amalie Lipstreu, and then Julia Barton. Russ, 

12 the floor is yours.

13 MR. HAUSER: Yes. Thank you very much 

14 for the opportunity to comment. I'm Russ Hauser, 

15 a professor at Harvard Chan School of Public Health 

16 and Harvard Medical School.

17 Today I'm speaking as part of Project 

18 TENDR. It's a collaboration of scientists, health 

19 professionals, and advocates concerned with toxic 

20 chemicals that can harm children's brain 

21 development. I spent over two decades researching 
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1 the human health impacts of a class of industrial 

2 chemicals called phthalates, which are widely used 

3 in food processing and packaging.

4 Last year, several of us in Project 

5 TENDR published an article in the American Journal 

6 of Public Health, identifying phthalates as 

7 neurotoxic chemicals that can do lasting harm to 

8 child brain development and increase children's 

9 risk for learning, attention and behavior 

10 disorders. In particular prenatal exposure to 

11 phthalates are associated with attention problems 

12 in children.

13 In the last 2 years, since we reviewed 

14 the evidence, more than 30 new human studies have 

15 been published, fighting an association between 

16 phthalates and problems with children's cognition, 

17 attention and behavior. Phthalates have also been 

18 long known to harm reproductive organs in boys, 

19 specifically reproductive tract development.

20 Women, children and men are exposed to 

21 multiples phthalates every day. Black and Latina 
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1 women of reproductive age have higher exposure to 

2 phthalates as compared to white women, regardless 

3 of income level. And we know that phthalates 

4 readily transfer from the mother to the fetus.

5 While regulatory action has eliminated 

6 or reduced some phthalates from children's toys 

7 and cosmetics, diet remains a primary source of 

8 exposure. Phthalates have been shown to leach 

9 into food from plastic equipment such as tubing, 

10 lid gaskets, food preparation gloves, conveyor 

11 belts, bottle caps and packaging materials. 

12 Phthalates leach into organic food just as they 

13 leach into non-organic food.

14 For example, the organic food company 

15 Annie's Homegrown has determined that Phthalates 

16 detected in their macaroni and cheese products are 

17 coming from processing equipment and packaging 

18 materials. These harmful chemicals should not be 

19 permitted in any food production and packaging 

20 materials.

21 Moreover, the organic label 
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1 appropriately holds organic food production and 

2 packaging to a higher standard. Consumers expect 

3 organic food to be free of introduced toxic 

4 chemicals. Because phthalates leach from food 

5 contact materials into food and people are widely 

6 exposed to multiple phthalates, with higher 

7 exposures to women of color, and rapidly 

8 accumulating evidence finds levels of phthalates 

9 can do lasting harm to children's brain, we request 

10 the NOSB to prohibit phthalates from use in food 

11 production and packaging, to prevent the 

12 inevitable introduction of synthetic harmful 

13 chemicals into organic food.

14 I thank you for considering this 

15 request, and happy to answer any questions you may 

16 have.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

18 much for your comments. Any questions? Amy --

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Russ, thank you so much 

20 for being here today and your written and oral 

21 comments, and the collaborative effort of the 
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1 comments that you had.

2 I just have a question. You mentioned 

3 the importance of food packaging and food contact 

4 materials to look at the elimination of these 

5 products. Do we need to cast a wider net and also 

6 look at some of the non-food products in the organic 

7 community as well? Just because I believe the $62 

8 billion industry that our organic community 

9 represents is food and non-food, you kind of 

10 mentioned the packaging equipment, but I mean I'm 

11 even seeing on, you know, some shampoos and things 

12 like that, that have potentially some of these 

13 chemicals involved in those.

14 MR. HAUSER: Yes. So, so phthalates 

15 are found in many different products. I mean, 

16 you're referring to personal care products. I 

17 mean, they're founded in soaps and shampoos and 

18 perfumes, deodorants, et cetera. So that's 

19 another source of exposure.

20 For some of the phthalates though food 

21 is a primary source of exposure, specifically one 
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1 of the phthalates called DEHP, di(2-ethylhexyl) 

2 phthalate, which is used as a plasticizer to soften 

3 vinyl, plastic, or PVC plastic, and it leached out 

4 of that plastic, so if it's in contact with foods 

5 or grain, cetera. The vinyl plastic is about 30 

6 percent by weight phthalates and it's not 

7 covalently down, which means it's not a chemical 

8 bond, so will leach out into products.

9 I don't know if that's specifically 

10 what you were getting at or -- with this, you know.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, that was helpful.

12 MR. HAUSER: Phthalates are in 

13 probably thousands of different products, but for 

14 some of them, especially DEHP, we clearly know that 

15 food is a primary source for human exposure.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thank you.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

18 question, Amy.

19 Javier?

20 MEMBER ZAMORA: Thank you. Yes, I 

21 guess I'm not, I thought I was mute.
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1 Russ, thank you so much for your 

2 comments. You partially answered that question 

3 when you were answering to Amy. But I wanted to 

4 -- first of, I'm a farmer, I'm not a scientist, 

5 and we rely heavily sometimes on scientists to tell 

6 us what's going on and how sometimes organic food, 

7 when it's packaged, gets changed into non-organic.

8 You said several things in how minority 

9 communities are involved, are impacted by these 

10 leaching chemicals in our food. Can you give me 

11 -- I know you gave some examples to shampoos and 

12 that sort of thing. I can tell you that, in my 

13 head I was thinking of when you get a bottle of 

14 water and you keep it under the sun, when we're 

15 out on the field, and then you drink later out of 

16 it and it tastes different. So there must be, you 

17 know, some sort of leaching there. So I just 

18 wanted to hear a little more on how communities 

19 of color and perhaps lower-income communities are 

20 impacted in a heavier way? Thank you.

21 MR. HAUSER: Sure. Sure. Thanks for 
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1 the question. So communities of color and 

2 low-income do have higher exposure, and a lot of 

3 this data comes from so something called NHANES 

4 the National Health and Nutrition Examination 

5 survey, NHANES. That is a survey that the CDC 

6 does, and they measure concentrations of chemicals 

7 and metals in several thousand U.S. citizens each 

8 year, and it clearly shows higher levels of 

9 phthalates as well as other chemicals and metals.

10 And the sources of these are probably 

11 multifold, they're probably coming from, you know, 

12 foods and food packaging and the different types 

13 of foods that are available to these communities, 

14 also coming from, you know, different products that 

15 they may use in terms of personal care products 

16 as well. And then of course, there's, you know, 

17 other sources, from pollution and other sources 

18 as well. But the NHANES data, you know, clearly 

19 shows differences, and especially for some of the 

20 phthalates among these communities having higher 

21 levels in their body.
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1 MEMBER ZAMORA: Thank you. And I just 

2 wanted to mention something, maybe it's a little 

3 typo for people that are doing the writing on the 

4 screen, when he talks about phthalates on this, 

5 it's saying solid. So I think we probably need 

6 to fix this because it's a big difference there.

7 MR. HAUSER: It's 

8 P-H-T-H-A-L-A-T-E-S. Thank you, Javier for that.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: You can get 

10 close-captioning, yes.

11 MR. HAUSER: Yes.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Javier 

13 for that question.

14 Rick? Oh, and you're on mute, Rick.

15 MEMBER GREENWOOD: Follow up on 

16 actually what Javier brought up. So I'm curious 

17 though, have there been some real epidemiological 

18 studies on phthalates and the racial disparities? 

19 I know there's the NHANES study, but has it been 

20 more closely examined just for the phthalates to 

21 see where people are getting them by racial 
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1 differences? You know, is it food habits, is it 

2 industrial or is it where individuals live? I 

3 mean, do you have, have you looked more closely 

4 at that?

5 MR. HAUSER: Yes. There are studies 

6 that have -- Rick, thanks for that question, that 

7 have looked at differences or explanations for the 

8 differences. There's work that Ami Zota has done, 

9 Z-O-T-A, and she's focused a lot on, you know, 

10 racial, ethnic differences, income differences in 

11 terms of exposures.

12 And the three things you mentioned are 

13 really explaining it, which includes the, you know, 

14 foods in terms of, you know, consuming more foods 

15 that are packaged or processed in certain ways, 

16 the personal care products, and then also where 

17 they live, where their communities are in terms 

18 of if they're, you know, close to industrial sites 

19 or pollution.

20 So there are studies in the peer 

21 reviewed literature that do identify these 
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1 different sources. Some have focused more on food 

2 than others. Others have focused more on the 

3 personal care products that have been used.

4 MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So, again, 

5 focusing more closely than on the phthalates in 

6 pollution, is that an air quality issue or are you 

7 saying it becomes a water issue, in municipal 

8 waters? What's the explanation for that?

9 MR. HAUSER: Yes. So phthalates, as 

10 compared to other chemicals, I think primary routes 

11 and sources of exposure are really more from the 

12 products that we come in contact with in the food, 

13 less so from air and water, even though the

14 phthalates do end up in air and water, but the 

15 contribution to human exposure from those is 

16 considered low as compared to, you know, other 

17 pollutants, such as from water. Phthalates, I 

18 would say, I would classify them more as, you know, 

19 exposure from consumer products and foods as a 

20 primary -- yes.

21 MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Yes, it's 
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1 interesting. I used to run an analytical 

2 chemistry lab, and you couldn't get water without 

3 phthalates. I mean --

4 MR. HAUSER: Oh, yes, yes.

5 MEMBER GREENWOOD: It's almost 

6 impossible. So I know they're widespread, but I 

7 was just curious about these.

8 MR. HAUSER: Yes. I mean, that's 

9 interesting because I first got into this research 

10 in early 2000, working with some scientist at the 

11 CBC, and we were actually looking at measuring 

12 different classes of chemicals, and they kept 

13 having traces of contaminant in the water and the 

14 reagents in the lab just because they're so 

15 ubiquitous.

16 So what you, you know, just pointed out 

17 is still true today and really led to kind of a 

18 lot of the interest in research in phthalates 

19 because they're so widespread and ubiquitous, in 

20 our environment and also in people.

21 MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you.
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1 MR. HAUSER: Sure.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian?

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. Thanks, Russ, 

4 for bringing up this issue. I really hope we can 

5 address it, but I had a quick follow-up to Javier's 

6 question. I have always wondered what it was the 

7 favors (phonetic) that you get from water. And 

8 it seems like they're, you know, definitely in the, 

9 you know, parts per million or higher range because 

10 we can taste them pretty clearly.

11 MR. HAUSER: So, you were asking the 

12 question about, Javier was asking about, you know, 

13 bottled water when it's in heat and sunlight.

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, yes.

15 MR. HAUSER: Yes.

16 MEMBER CALDWELL: Exactly.

17 MR. HAUSER: Yes, so probably more than 

18 you want to know, or, you know, it's as -- I'm a 

19 physician that actually got into research looking 

20 at human health effects, but quickly learned that 

21 there was a lot to learn in terms of polymer 
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1 chemistry. So, a lot will depend on the type of 

2 plastic that the water is in, in terms of what 

3 chemicals may leach out from the plastic into the 

4 beverage or the water that you're drinking.

5 If you're referring to those, you know, 

6 the typical bottles that you buy in convenience 

7 stores, et cetera, grocery stores, those are 

8 actually made from a different material that does 

9 not contain what we call ortho-phthalates, but it

10 is a different type of plastic, it's a polyethylene 

11 terephthalate, it's not an ortho-phthalates sorry 

12 for a lot of the organic chemistry. But it's a 

13 different type of plastic and it contains both, 

14 you know, antioxidants, it's also contains 

15 antimony, which is a metal.

16 And there's been studies that have been 

17 done. I'd worked with actually a group in Cyprus 

18 where, you know, they have extremely hot summers 

19 and strong solar amounts, you know, and we were 

20 able to measure in these plastic bottles higher 

21 levels of chemicals, including Bisphenol A 
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1 specifically. But the bottles you're probably 

2 referring to, if you look on the bottom of the 

3 bottle, you'll see that it says PET, you know, where 

4 the recycling label is, that's polyethylene 

5 terephthalate. Even though it has the word 

6 phthalate in it, it's not the ortho-phthalate that 

7 I'm referring to when we talk about the harmful 

8 effects to children's brain development. But 

9 there are many other chemicals in those bottles. 

10 And the heat and the sunlight will increase 

11 leaching of the chemicals into the water or fluid 

12 that's in the bottle. Does that answer, Brian, 

13 what you were kind of getting at in Javier --

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, thanks a lot. 

15 We might consider here, yes.

16 MR. HAUSER: Yes. It becomes --

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're going to 

18 have 

19 MR. HAUSER: -- very quickly.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're going to 

21 have to keep going. But if we have additional 
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1 resources, Dr. Hauser's contact information is 

2 available to members who can reach out directly.

3 All right. Moving on. Amalie 

4 Lipstreu, followed by Julia Barton, and then Astrid 

5 Jacobs de Padua.

6 MS. LIPSTREU: Thank you, Nate. Good 

7 afternoon, members of the National Organic 

8 Standards Board. I'm Amalie Lipstreu, policy 

9 director at the Ohio Ecological Food and Farm 

10 Association. I really want to thank you as a board 

11 for taking leadership on the role of organic 

12 agriculture in addressing climate change and food 

13 systems resilience.

14 It's heartening that increasingly 

15 among the scientists' organizations and 

16 conservation professionals I have the privilege 

17 of working with, they increasingly speak of the 

18 need to use systems thinking in addressing the 

19 problem of climate change. Despite the growing 

20 prevalence of the term regenerative agriculture, 

21 we know that it offers no uniform standards, no 
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1 governing body and no oversight.

2 Organic agriculture, as we all know, 

3 is the only system of agriculture offering that, 

4 plus the synergistic suites of practices that make 

5 this voluntary system of agriculture a key solution 

6 for the climate crisis.

7 Unfortunately, as we have seen, the 

8 U.S. Department of Agriculture is reticent to say 

9 anything that might confer benefits to organic 

10 systems. Your letter to the secretary was both 

11 well-timed and sorely needed. Unfortunately, the 

12 response from the director is to add this item to 

13 her work agenda, along with a number of heady 

14 questions to answer. As stated in OEFFA's written 

15 comments, this could be the sole item on the board's 

16 agenda for years and still leave room for more 

17 discussion and research. We're happy to see you 

18 take on this subject and at the same time make your 

19 concerns known to USDA leadership, that this is 

20 the work of the department as a whole and should 

21 not rest on the shoulders of a part time volunteer 
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1 board.

2 Please know that we will do everything 

3 we can to ensure you have access to the farmers, 

4 researchers and resources you need to do this work, 

5 and also encourage you to continue asking USDA to 

6 commit staff and resources to this effort as well. 

7 And importantly, break the code of silence around 

8 the numerous co-benefits of organic agriculture.

9 Also, as we promote the role of organic 

10 agriculture, providing solutions to the climate 

11 crisis, we need to caution that hydroponic systems 

12 are dependent on the highly soluble nitrogen 

13 fertilizers and not the kind of systems approach 

14 supportive of climate change solutions.

15 And finally, we do support the proposal 

16 from the board to limit highly soluble nitrogen

17 fertilizers with carbon-to-nitrogen ratios of 

18 three-to-one or less, including those individual 

19 components of blended fertilizer formulations. 

20 And our certification colleagues have reviewed the 

21 language and feel comfortable with monitoring and 
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1 enforcing those provisions. Thank you for your 

2 time.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

4 comments. Any questions for Amalie? All right, 

5 seeing none we'll keep going. Thank you, Amalie.

6 Julia Barton is up next. Astrid Jacobs 

7 de Padua, if you are here, if you are here, would 

8 you make yourself known please just put something 

9 in the chat box. We're not seeing you. And then 

10 Harold Austin after that.

11 So, Julia, the floor is yours.

12 MS. BARTON: Thank you, Nate. Hi, 

13 everybody. Welcome new board members. It's nice 

14 to meet you virtually. I am Julia Barton with the 

15 Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association. I'd 

16 like to highlight a few comments, a few topics from 

17 our written comments today. First, hydroponic and 

18 container systems, OFFEA is part of a group of 

19 certification, education and policy organizations 

20 who agree that soil is the foundation of organic 

21 agriculture and who strive to achieve consistency 
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1 in our organizational policies related to 

2 certificate and certification decisions. Because 

3 aeroponic hydroponic and crops grown to maturity 

4 in containers do not comply with OFFEA and because 

5 there is significant inconsistency in the way these 

6 forms of production are being handled by organic 

7 certifiers presently, we urge the board to call 

8 for a moratorium on the certification of these 

9 operations until we can utilize our existing NOSB 

10 and rulemaking process to move forward with greater 

11 consistency.

12 The timing and format of meetings. We 

13 need more farmer participation in the NOSB process. 

14 To this end, OFFEA's grain grower chapter has 

15 continually requested an alternative to the 

16 current meeting schedule. Most recently, they 

17 have proposed moving the schedule back 2 weeks each 

18 meeting. This would mean the meeting would rotate 

19 throughout the year, equally benefiting and 

20 inconveniencing various stakeholders over time.

21 We believe farmer participation is also 
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1 a priority of the board. And we're wondering how 

2 we can work together to ensure that the meetings 

3 are scheduled to maximize input from a variety of 

4 organic production systems and producers across 

5 the country.

6 Racial equity. OFFEA appreciates the 

7 work of the current administration to bring equity 

8 issues to the fore within USDA, and the efforts 

9 of our colleagues at NOC and others to bring these 

10 issues to light within the organic community. We 

11 support NOC's racial equity comments and have the 

12 following two specific requests.

13 We request the board establish a 

14 diversity, equity and inclusion subcommittee 

15 within the NOSB. We also request the board add 

16 fairness standards to the NOSB work agenda or work 

17 through the process to add them to the work agenda 

18 and then work to develop them.

19 Finally, highly soluble nitrogen 

20 fertilizers. Organic agriculture is a systems 

21 approach which is intended to feed the soil not 
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1 the crop. OFFEA appreciates the board's thorough 

2 work on this topic and supports the addition of 

3 this motion to 205-105. Our certification 

4 department anticipates being able to manage this 

5 restriction much as they did with sodium nitrate 

6 in the past. They feel confident that we as a 

7 community, farmers and certifiers can work this 

8 out. You'll be hearing from several OFFEA farmers 

9 directly on Thursday. Thank you again for your 

10 time and for your service.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

12 comment, Julia.

13 Logan has a question.

14 MEMBER PETREY: Hi, thank you, Julia. 

15 So, there are some farmers on the board and we 

16 all agree that sometimes April and October are very 

17 tough, you know, to make it. So, just curious, when 

18 you said the 2 weeks prior, are you meaning each 

19 year 2 weeks prior again, is that what you're 

20 implying to make it different.

21 MS. BARTON: Yes, ma'am. That was one 
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1 suggestion by the Grain Growers Chapter. I think 

2 that was Eli, Dean, maybe a meeting or two ago. 

3 But it was just one idea.

4 MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

5 MS. BARTON: They've proposed several 

6 ideas over time, because we feel strongly that it's 

7 not really fair to just ask the farmers to multitask 

8 while they're doing everything else that they're 

9 doing in the spring. And we also recognized that 

10 different growers have different busy times of the 

11 year. So, it would be fair if we rotated the 

12 meeting, so kind of like Ramadan or, you know, 

13 various other lunar calendar holidays, it would 

14 move throughout the year.

15 MEMBER PETREY: Sure. I mean, yes, it 

16 is tough. These times of year are our busiest 

17 times here in the southeast. I know it is in other 

18 places. But it was an interesting concept. I 

19 appreciate it. Thank you.

20 MS. BARTON: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Logan. 
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1 Amy?

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Nate. 

3 Julia, thank you. I appreciate all of this 

4 comments, the written ones and the near-recurrent 

5 oral comments as well. Hopeful to hear that the 

6 practice standard for HSN is clear from your 

7 certifying perspective. Had a question, it was 

8 geared towards your written comments on one of the 

9 CACS' work agenda items. OFFEA, I know, is 

10 currently capturing acres by products on 

11 certificates. And there was some comments just 

12 in general from the community that, you know, that 

13 particular question it can work very easily for 

14 grain farmers. I know your written comments, you 

15 mentioned how potentially that could be handled 

16 for livestock. I was wondering if you had any best 

17 practices on how you guys are doing acre collection 

18 by crop for small acres and mixed vegetables?

19 MS. BARTON: Sure, that's a good 

20 question. We did have that conversation 

21 internally. And I'm not sure if we spelled it out 
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1 in our written comments. So, if it's very small 

2 acreages of mixed vegetables, we generally list 

3 it as mixed vegetables on the certificate. If 

4 someone has a contract with a grocery store, chain 

5 or a large grocer where the grocer is requiring 

6 for, or any buyer is requiring, for instance, that 

7 those products are listed individually, then we're 

8 happy to do that as well.

9 If anybody's got large quantities of 

10 a certain crop, we definitely want to make sure 

11 that we do that. But if we've got an, you know, 

12 let's just say an acre, 3 acres or less of mixed 

13 vegetables, we generally list it as mixed 

14 vegetables. But if we have questions from buyers, 

15 we're happy to provide additional documentation 

16 in support to the grower, certainly.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Wonderful. 

18 Thank you, Julia, appreciate it.

19 MS. BARTON: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

21 question, Amy. Javier?
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1 MEMBER ZAMORA: Julia, thank you so 

2 much for taking the time, and your comments. As 

3 a founder, I feel that we get really good support 

4 from organizations like yourself, that I frankly 

5 believe that the NOSB does need to pay a little 

6 closer attention to the farmers' needs, especially 

7 the working farmers that, I can tell you about 

8 myself, speaking about myself, how difficult it 

9 is to really feel like you're being given the best 

10 you can to support the decisions that have been 

11 -- that are on the table to be decided on.

12 And when you have a working farm, you 

13 work 24/7, this includes Sundays. I think I can 

14 tell you that on only Sunday after 5 p.m. it's my 

15 day off. So, when all these needs that the board 

16 requires you to go through different sources of 

17 research and different readings, not to mention 

18 the time away from the farm, it's very difficult 

19 for a working farm.

20 If you're a retiree, you're okay, you 

21 need something to do. But when you are depending 
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1 on, you know, 50, 60 people are depending on what 

2 you do, on a working farm that is family-owned, 

3 it --

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

5 that, Javier. It blacked out there for a second. 

6 Is that where you finished?

7 MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes, that's fine.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sorry about that. 

9 Yes. Okay. Thank you, Julia. I will just give 

10 a shout out to the OFFEA Grain Growers Chapter that 

11 despite it being inconvenient, you all still 

12 participate, which I'm very grateful for. I 

13 myself was farming in a blizzard right before we 

14 got on here, and it is never convenient, crops need 

15 to get in, but I appreciate everyone who still shows 

16 up. All right. Thank you, Julia.

17 Astrid, I don't think we were able to 

18 locate you. Please send a shout on e-mail if you 

19 are on, and we'll try to fit you in. Next up will 

20 be Harold Austin; followed by David Epstein, if 

21 you're on, I think David we weren't able to locate 
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1 either; followed by Jaydee Hanson.

2 So, Harold, the floor is yours.

3 MR. AUSTIN: All right. Thanks, Nate. 

4 Good morning, everybody. My name is Harold 

5 Austin -- or good afternoon, I guess, depending 

6 on where you're located. My name is Harold Austin. 

7 I serve as the chair of the Science Advisory 

8 Committee for the Northwest Horticultural Council, 

9 as well as their organic subcommittee. I'm the 

10 director of orchard administration for Zirkle 

11 Fruit Company, located here in Selah, Washington.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I apologize, 

13 Harold. Michelle, it seems like the timer didn't 

14 start.

15 MR. AUSTIN: I'm okay with that.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, I know. I 

17 was going to say that.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: I usually start it 

19 after name and affiliation. He's still going with 

20 that affiliation.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, okay, okay, 
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1 sorry, sorry. Go ahead. I apologize.

2 MR. AUSTIN: Okay. My comments of 

3 support are on behalf of the organic crop producers 

4 and handlers here in the Pacific Northwest and 

5 across the country. I wish to begin by thanking 

6 all of you serving on the NOSB for taking the time 

7 to take and share in the duties of this tremendous 

8 responsibility. Thank you, each of you.

9 For handling, I support the relisting 

10 of nitrogen and carbon dioxide. Both of these are 

11 used in our controlled atmosphere storage of our 

12 organic apples, to slow down fruit respiration. 

13 We would not be able to compete with conventional 

14 apples, which have a plethora of materials to use 

15 in later marketing timeframes without the use of 

16 these two materials, they are crucial in our 

17 packing and storage of operations of our organic 

18 apples.

19 For crops, please see the two documents 

20 that I submitted which provide detailed 

21 description in support of several materials, some 
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1 of which are micronutrients, sticky traps, 

2 coppers, humic acids, polyoxin D zinc salt and 

3 several others, all of which we currently use in 

4 our organic farming operations.

5 For the CACS, the discussion document 

6 on the NOSB Technical Support Initiative, while 

7 I wholeheartedly support the concept of providing 

8 additional assistance to the NOSB members, I'm 100 

9 percent against outsourcing this assistance to any 

10 university or nonprofit personnel. Both of these 

11 scenarios involve entities that do not fall under 

12 the same federal oversight and scrutiny as the AMS 

13 or the NOP.

14 Both also potentially could fall prey 

15 to outside influences that potentially further 

16 erode stakeholder trust in the NOSB process. By 

17 building technical supports from within the staff 

18 of the NOP or the USDA, you were building for their 

19 future. And by that I mean selecting a selected 

20 staff personnel for maybe a couple people to serve 

21 on the various subcommittees, begin to build 
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1 historic knowledge around each of the materials

2 that extend the decision-making process involving 

3 those materials. This then becomes an 

4 unbelievable source of information of facts, 

5 discussions, issues related around each of these 

6 materials. While the NOSB members eventually will 

7 sense that off themselves, hopefully the staff will 

8 remain, that's providing a critical and valuable 

9 resource for the future NOSB members that follow 

10 in their place.

11 When I served on the NOSB, we had a 

12 tremendous resource in Emily Brown Rosen, she was 

13 absolutely amazing. Her historic knowledge of the 

14 materials, the discussions around each material 

15 was absolutely phenomenal and gave us information 

16 that we couldn't find otherwise. Please build for 

17 the future and realize that the decisions that you 

18 are involved in making impact organic growers, 

19 packers, producers, their ability to compete, let 

20 alone to stay in business.

21 As far as allocations, I urge caution 
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1 to not be overly prescriptive or restrictive on 

2 the various materials that you're going to be 

3 voting on. God bless, and have a safe and 

4 wonderful spring meeting.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

6 Harold.

7 Brian has his hand up.

8 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, thanks, Harold. 

9 I think we're really going to struggle with this 

10 issue of kind of who's kind of eligible to be 

11 advising or and doing technical assistance to the 

12 NOSB. But you mentioned Emily Brown Rosen and Zea 

13 Sonnabend as fantastic resources, but they would 

14 be unavailable if we had to rely on USDA or 

15 university staff. And so, they're still around, 

16 they still know just is much as they did before, 

17 but we wouldn't be able to use people like them. 

18 And so, I'm just wondering if you feel like the 

19 sort of pool could be expanded a little bit.

20 MR. AUSTIN: You know, Brian, yes, I 

21 wouldn't be against that. I guess, I would just 
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1 urge caution on what that pool would look like. 

2 I think one of the reasons I stay within the 

3 process whether it's USDA, NOP, AMS, is that your 

4 billing staff resource that then can be utilized 

5 for individuals following in your footsteps at a 

6 later date and time. Emily at the time, she was 

7 employed as a staff member of the NOP. So, I mean, 

8 so I mean, that's why I fall into that, but I'm 

9 critical of going too far outside the scope of 

10 control within AMS, NOP itself, just because then 

11 there's other outside influences that become a 

12 factor within that.

13 One of the things that I didn't mention 

14 in my oral comments, that I mentioned on written 

15 was there's also the use of working groups, like 

16 we had the tree fruit working group when we were 

17 dealing with the antibiotics. I don't think that 

18 the NSOB is utilizing that process or being allowed 

19 to utilize that process anywhere near as much as 

20 you should be able to. I think that's a valuable 

21 resource that you guys really need to take and have 
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1 a talk with the NOP and see about how do you 

2 implement that on the various subcommittees and 

3 utilize that as another tool and resource, its 

4 value.

5 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Harold.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

7 question, Brian. Rick?

8 MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes. Thanks, 

9 Harold. And I completely agree with you. I think 

10 when I joined the NOSB, about, you know, almost 

11 5 years now. The ability to have NOP staff give 

12 you the historical context for the decisions that 

13 were made, I think was invaluable. And I think 

14 that's something, especially for new board 

15 members, where you really can rely on people that 

16 don't have a vested interest in the outcome. So, 

17 I agree with you. Thanks.

18 MR. AUSTIN: And Rick, one of the 

19 things, circling back around a little bit to 

20 Brian's would be, if you wanted to expand the pool 

21 from which you could draw those resources from, 
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1 maybe it's a pool that's made up of past NOSB 

2 members. That might be another option that could 

3 help provide some of that information and some of 

4 those resources for you.

5 MEMBER GREENWOOD: No, thanks.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

7 that, Harold. It's a big topic. I think it's 

8 going to be very impactful for all of us. So, thank 

9 you for your insights.

10 I don't think we're seeing David 

11 Epstein, we're going to move on to Jaydee Hanson, 

12 and then followed by Harriet Behar before we break.

13 So, Jay, you on.

14 MS. ARSENAULT: On the call, let's see 

15 if he's having trouble. Oh, there you are. 

16 Jaydee, we can't hear you. Although you don't have 

17 a red X through your microphone. No, not now.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No. Still no 

19 volume, nope.

20 MR. HANSON: Can you hear me now?

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: There we go.
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1 MR. HANSON: Okay. It must be my 

2 headset. Technology does not always help us. 

3 Even though it's -- so I'm using half the technology 

4 I had.

5 I'm Jaydee Hanson, I'm the policy 

6 director at the Centre for Food Safety. We are 

7 a longtime supporter of Organic Program. Wanted 

8 to comment quickly on two things. One, we very 

9 much would like the National Organic Program to 

10 finalize as regulations, it's the excluded methods 

11 language that the NOSB has been going through for 

12 the last -- well, since 2016. We think basically 

13 with the addition of language in vitro nucleic acid 

14 technologies, replacing recombinant DNA 

15 technology, that would set up a situation where 

16 the new methods that came in would be weighed 

17 against the -- standard is, you know, was it derived 

18 from techniques of in vitro nucleic acid 

19 technologies and that would help with the immediate 

20 discussions around cell fusion and protoplast 

21 fusion, but also gene editing and other process 
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1 as well.

2 We do think that it's time that this 

3 be part of the regulations related to OFFEA, not 

4 just guidance documents, not just advice to 

5 certifiers. On biobased mulch, we are concerned 

6 about the increased use of nanochemicals in 

7 biobased polymers, we support biobased polymers 

8 but we think that as the NOSB looks at them, they 

9 need to make sure that nano cellulose, nano clays 

10 and other nano ingredients in plastics be assessed 

11 and not migrate out of the plastics into the soil 

12 or out of the plastics into foods.

13 So, we are also very concerned about 

14 workers breathing nano clay and nano cellulose as 

15 they work with these products. And you have way 

16 more in our discussions. And finally, for the last 

17 several meetings we've urged the NOSB (audio 

18 interference.) 

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. So 

20 much for your comments, Jaydee. Any questions 

21 from our members? Seeing none, we're going to move 
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1 on to Harriet Behar, and then we're going to take 

2 a break. Following the break we'll have Beth Rota, 

3 Lee Frankel and then Jake Evans. Harriet? Oh, 

4 yes.

5 MR. EPSTEIN: This is Dave Epstein. 

6 I apologize sincerely, I had it on my schedule for 

7 noon.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All good.

9 MR. EPSTEIN: I was just involved with 

10 an interview for a candidate we're hiring in 

11 Washington State and someone called me and said 

12 you folks were calling my name. So, I'm really 

13 sorry I'm late. But if there's an opportunity, 

14 I'm here, I can present.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we'll work 

16 with the NOP team to fit you in. So, please stand 

17 by.

18 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes, thank you.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Harriet, all 

20 yours.

21 MS. BEHAR: Hi, my name is Harriet 
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1 Behar, organic farmer, environmental advocate and 

2 former NOSB member. The NOSB spends much of its 

3 time discussing inputs for use in organic 

4 production, and many people understand organic 

5 agriculture only through the lens of what inputs 

6 are or what are not allowed to be used on crops 

7 and as ingredients.

8 Let us not forget that organic is a 

9 system of agriculture, and it is that system of 

10 cultural, biological and mechanical practices that 

11 promotes ecological balance, recycles nutrients 

12 and enhances biodiversity. It is the 

13 systems-based approach of organic that provides 

14 the numerous environmental, economic and human 

15 health benefits when compared to non-organic.

16 The allowance of highly soluble 

17 nitrogen without restriction would start organic 

18 down the path of reliance on inputs rather than 

19 systems, resulting in dubious benefits and 

20 negative consequences.

21 As a longtime organic farmer and 
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1 inspector, I believe the tools for implementing 

2 the proposal as written are readily available with 

3 much of the information already provided in the 

4 proposal. Only fertility inputs that are close 

5 to the three-to-one carbon ratio would need to be 

6 scrutinized during the annual certification 

7 review. And there is abundant information 

8 available to aid growers and certifiers in 

9 determining the annual nitrogen needs of just about 

10 every crop grown.

11 I have done many inspections where I 

12 needed to review the sodium nitrate used and its 

13 provision for 20 percent of the nitrogen needs of 

14 the crop. While it can be cumbersome, it is not 

15 impossible. Many inspectors have developed 

16 spreadsheets to do the calculations, speeding up 

17 review, especially when there are numerous crops. 

18 Just as manufacture in the past of chicken manure 

19 pellets quickly learned to supply information to 

20 their organic clients on the heat treatment used 

21 for their products to be applied on crops for human 
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1 consumption without a wait time.

2 The limited amount of fertility 

3 suppliers who would be affected by this rule would 

4 need to supply the C-to-N ratio to organic 

5 operators and certifiers. In short order, these 

6 suppliers will quickly learn this organic 

7 requirement and the info will be readily available. 

8 All inputs must be reviewed within the context 

9 of the long- and short-term effects on ecological 

10 systems and the OFPA. I would have preferred that 

11 the annotation would have limited use only in 

12 response to an out-of-the-ordinary climactic 

13 occurrence that cause the organic system to fail, 

14 such as unusual cold, extreme wet or dry 

15 conditions.

16 With climate change, growers are 

17 challenged and this proposal allows for a tool to 

18 deal with extreme conditions. This is the main 

19 reason I support the proposal, rather than a 

20 complete ban. And please refer to my written 

21 comments on numerous other topics.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

2 Harriet, for your work, for your participation, 

3 we appreciate it. Any questions for Harriet, from 

4 the board?

5 All right. I'm going to be a terrible 

6 person real quick and delay our break just a minute. 

7 And David, if you would give your comments, 

8 please, and then we will break.

9 MR. EPSTEIN: Well, I'm truly sorry for 

10 delaying everybody's break.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No worries.

12 MR. EPSTEIN: But I appreciate your 

13 accommodation. So, good afternoon. I call your 

14 attention to the written comments we submitted 

15 regarding the materials and proposals currently 

16 under consideration by the board. The Pacific 

17 Northwest is the leader in the production of 

18 organic apples, pears and cherries, producing 95 

19 percent of all the fresh organic apples in the U.S. 

20 The NHC supports the relisting of sticky traps 

21 and fixed coppers for disease management.
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1 Routine biological monitoring of pest 

2 insects, allows the grower to know what pests are 

3 present, when their present and at what population 

4 levels and is the foundation of organic pest 

5 management. Pest management tools should only be 

6 deployed once monitoring knowledge is in hand, to 

7 determine whether a decision is warranted and 

8 needed and to best time the use of that management 

9 tool or tactic.

10 Use of sticky traps is the principal 

11 method for establishing when key pests become 

12 active in orchard and for initiating biological 

13 models that predict egg laying, and when larval 

14 emergence occurs, the best time control actions. 

15 Without these tools, growers are making 

16 uninformed decisions on whether and when they 

17 initiate a control. There are no viable options 

18 currently to replace the use of sticky traps.

19 The use of coppers is critically 

20 important in organic apple and pear production for 

21 the prevention of fire blight, especially since 
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1 the loss of antibiotics streptomycin and oxytet. 

2 Copper is used for fire blight management only 

3 when fire blight models predict an upcoming fire 

4 blight weather event. Coppers are not routinely 

5 used every year.

6 And this disease can devastate an 

7 orchard. In 2017, 22 percent of apple acres and 

8 65 percent of pear acres in Washington had fire 

9 blight infections, resulting in $9 million in loss 

10 and hundreds of acres of apples and pears being 

11 removed. Using this important tool for fire 

12 blight management can result in even more 

13 catastrophic losses in a weather-conducive year. 

14 The decision to delist would leave growers with 

15 little to protect their trees. This is because 

16 fixed copper products average 70 percent efficacy 

17 when used alone, compared with many other organic 

18 alternatives, such as Bacillus subtilis and 

19 essential oils, which range from 20 to 40 percent 

20 efficacy.

21 We agree that these materials must be 
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1 used in a manner that minimizes the accumulation 

2 in the soil and water and decreases harmful effects 

3 to soil and water biota. However, the monitoring 

4 and forecasting systems routinely deploy a low 

5 percentage of copper blight an even frequency of 

6 copper applications reduces the risk of copper 

7 buildup in soil and water. Thank you for your time 

8 and appreciate being allowed to make those 

9 comments.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

11 comments. We really appreciate it.

12 MR. EPSTEIN: You're welcome.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions from 

14 the board? All right. Thank you very much for 

15 your time and comments. Okay. We're going to 

16 break for 15 minutes, so let's come back at 55 after 

17 the hour.

18 So, Beth Rota will be first after the 

19 break at 55 after the hour, followed by Lee Frankel 

20 and then Jake Evans. All right. See you all in 

21 15 minutes.
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1 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

2 went off the record at 1:39 p.m. and resumed at 

3 1:55 p.m.)

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Welcome back, 

5 everybody. Hope you were able to enjoy some 

6 organic snacks. If we're good to start, Beth Rota, 

7 you are first up.

8 MS. ROTA: Thanks, Nate. I couldn't 

9 figure out how to start my video. But there we 

10 go. Good afternoon. My name is Beth Rota, and 

11 I am the organic program director at Quality 

12 Certification Services. Welcome to the new board 

13 members. I hope that we can all meet in person 

14 soon. Thank you for taking the time to consider 

15 my previous written comments on oversight 

16 improvements to deter fraud. Continued trust in 

17 the organic seal is very important to QCS as it's 

18 avenues to all of us, I am sure.

19 However, I disagree with the assertion 

20 that trust comes from transparency in supply chain. 

21 I think stakeholders trust the organic seal 
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1 because the certification process is robust, not 

2 because supply chains are transparent. As OFPA 

3 and the organic regulations don't allow certifiers 

4 to disclose confidential business information, we 

5 do not support the listing of crop acreage on the 

6 certificate or the public OIT (phonetic).

7 I have read the discussion document. 

8 I have to wonder if there's lack of confidence 

9 in certifier oversight. If so, let's work 

10 together and fill in the gaps with a targeted 

11 approach. It's important for you to know that one 

12 of the most common non-compliances we issue is for 

13 insufficient records. In my experience 

14 certifiers are adequately addressing gaps in 

15 records. I also trust the NOP to identify 

16 certifier deficiencies through the accreditation 

17 process.

18 However, sophisticated record-keeping 

19 systems, while appearing compliant, can be 

20 designed to cover up intentional fraud. This is 

21 one of the reasons why a universal bill of lading 
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1 would not effectively prevent fraud. Most 

2 operations do not sell their entire crop to only 

3 one buyer, thus limiting the buyer's knowledge of 

4 total sales. The proposed crop-specific details 

5 would also not be applicable beyond the farm sale 

6 in lengthy supply chains with mixed lots or for 

7 processed products.

8 Fortunately, certifiers have access to 

9 an operation's entire production and sales 

10 records. Certifiers also have skills and tools 

11 to look for potential fraud, free of competing 

12 interests that may exist between organic 

13 operations. We conduct mass balance audits at 

14 every annual inspection to determine if products 

15 harvested are handled balanced with product soles. 

16 And we also conduct yield analysis to make sure 

17 crop operations are not selling more than they 

18 could reasonably produce.

19 Additional resources from the USDA such 

20 as organic-specific yield data by crop and region 

21 would help us scrutinize reported yields for 
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1 potential issues. Certifiers also cross-check 

2 purchasing sales records between operations to 

3 make sure they're not selling more than they 

4 disclose to their certifier. The NOP could help 

5 certifiers target risky transactions and provide 

6 support and coordination for cross-checks, 

7 especially when multiple certifiers are involved 

8 in the supply chain.

9 In summary, I hope we put more resources 

10 toward yield analysis and cross-checks for risky 

11 products and supply chains, thus avoiding overly 

12 prescriptive record-keeping requirements and 

13 disclosure of confidential business information. 

14 Certifiers are committed to a robust oversight 

15 of fraud prevention, and should have a seat at the 

16 table on any projects aiming towards improvement.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

18 comments, Beth. Any questions from the Board? 

19 Seeing none, I have one. Beth, could you speak 

20 a little to what all avenues or routes certifiers 

21 have to flag fraud? Where is the greatest 
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1 collection of possible fraud tips coming into 

2 certifiers? We as inspectors only have, you know, 

3 that 4-hour snapshot that we can see on site. But 

4 there's all these transactions, all these other 

5 opportunities to identify fraud. Where do you 

6 see, as a certifier, the best spot to catch fraud, 

7 and to get those tips to investigate further?

8 MS. ROTA: That's a really great 

9 question, Nate. Sometimes it comes from 

10 complaints. A lot of it comes from -- if we're 

11 doing 5 percent of our operations we're doing 

12 residue testing on. And that's a really good place 

13 to look for potentials of fraud. At the farm 

14 level, like I said in my comments, I really think 

15 doing a yield analysis, that's especially useful 

16 where we have a farm that is producing a large 

17 volume of any one crop.

18 And we do this for a lot of operations 

19 that have a big volume of any one particular crop. 

20 But, yes, there's a lot of different ways to look 

21 for it. You know, sometimes it's just looking at 
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1 record-keeping systems that have inconsistencies. 

2 But I think that having more regular cross-checks 

3 is going to help us identify that as well as really 

4 taking a risk-based approach.

5 And I anticipate some of this is going 

6 to happen with the implementation of SOE as that 

7 we're going to be doing a little more risk 

8 assessments of certified operations, and perhaps 

9 start doing more things like cross-checks as a 

10 regular activity instead of just in response to 

11 a complaint investigation.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. Thank you. 

13 Amy has a question as well.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Beth, thank you 

15 for your time today and your comments, both the 

16 written ones and your current oral ones. I have 

17 several questions, but I'm just going to limit it 

18 to one right now. You mentioned one of the real 

19 important things to evaluate is yield analysis. 

20 And I was just wondering how best with the 

21 information that currently is provided, how do you 
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1 verify the yields that are maybe communicated?

2 MS. ROTA: How do we verify the yields 

3 --

4 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

5 MS. ROTA: -- is by looking at -- we 

6 can during an inspection or at any time really get 

7 records from the producer to determine how much 

8 was harvested, and then look at their field records 

9 to verify the acreage for that. There isn't a lot 

10 of data out there on what to expect an organic 

11 producer to have a yield for. We're just looking 

12 at general crop data to compare that. And we 

13 expect organic yields to not be higher than what 

14 we're seeing in yield reports from the USDA.

15 This isn't organic-specific. It's 

16 usually with the National Agricultural Statistics 

17 Service or other type of yield information. We're 

18 looking at state data, but we're comparing what 

19 we're seeing from the farm records with the data 

20 that's available, but organic-specific data would 

21 be really helpful.
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1 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you.

2 MS. ROTA: Does that answer the 

3 question?

4 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, it does. Do you 

5 see value in bidirectional checks potentially? 

6 So you have farm records, and then you're looking 

7 downstream to then re-verify what farm records 

8 show?

9 MS. ROTA: Exactly, exactly. And 

10 that's what I was talking about with cross-checks 

11 is I think that we can do a yield analysis on the 

12 farm that we certify. But we want to really verify 

13 that records aren't being undisclosed, right? And 

14 we want to cross-check our farm or our handler's 

15 records with their buyers records as well. We do 

16 that a lot in our own certification activities when 

17 we certify multiple entities in the supply chain.

18 It's really easy for us to identify that 

19 and do that on our own. Otherwise it takes a lot 

20 of coordination between certifiers and that's 

21 where I think resources from the NOP, some 
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1 coordination, some support could really help 

2 certifiers.

3 They could even be like, you know, the 

4 one who's carrying out the cross-check and 

5 certifiers provide the data from all over the 

6 entities that we certify. And then he could 

7 coordinate that process. I think that would go 

8 a really long way.

9 MEMBER BRUCH: Great. Thank you, 

10 Beth. Appreciate it.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim had a question 

12 as well.

13 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi Beth. And you 

14 might have already somewhat answered this question 

15 with your previous statement, but is 

16 cross-checking those yields a standard operating 

17 practice and SOP as certified within your 

18 organization?

19 MS. ROTA: Well --

20 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Or is it just ad hoc? 

21 And you notice there could be a potential issue?
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1 MS. ROTA: Cross-checks and yields are 

2 two -- and yield analysis are two different 

3 activities. A yield analysis we've done on the 

4 farm. We typically do that on farms where we're 

5 looking at, unfortunately not a mass balance, for 

6 example, on a -- at a farm level. We would be 

7 looking at that entire production records for a 

8 particular crop, looking at the acreage for that 

9 crop, and then doing a yield analysis to say, okay, 

10 that's a reasonable amount of production, not just 

11 based on the acreage, but based on the, you know, 

12 how close the crops are planted, and, you know, 

13 the level of inputs that they're using, what type 

14 of organic system plan they have in place.

15 MEMBER HUSEMAN: And that standard, 

16 though, for -- yes, but that's -- is that standard 

17 for you? Or is that just in ad hoc situations?

18 MS. ROTA: We typically -- yes, that's 

19 part of our mass balance --

20 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay.

21 MS. ROTA: -- process at a farm. 
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1 Cross-checks aren't, because they're outside of 

2 just one individual operation, we typically do 

3 those as their -- you know, as part of 

4 investigations.

5 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

7 question, Kim. Javier will be the last one for 

8 this one. And I would just remind everyone to keep 

9 it to questions. If we have comments or further 

10 discussion, please reach out directly to the 

11 commenter. So go ahead, Javier.

12 MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes. Thank you, Nate. 

13 That's a -- that's kind of like embraced my heart 

14 knowing how big organic is and how so much food 

15 is grown organically, but that there isn't data 

16 that it's more accurate of what the mass balance 

17 as you guys call it with just how much you're 

18 producing, doesn't the USDA provide those numbers 

19 for you or county on how, you know, let's say, how 

20 many trees per acre of strawberries an organic 

21 grower produce? Don't you have access to those 
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1 things?

2 And I think the record and the acreage, 

3 the way you guys are doing it is excellent that 

4 there is just -- there is no better way of 

5 cross-checking than that. But I believe -- I'd 

6 like to know if you know any -- how do you go and 

7 find sources? Or how do you guys do it find sources 

8 so that can educate you on what the production could 

9 be or should be or an average?

10 MS. ROTA: That's a really great 

11 question, Javier. Thank you for that. It's my 

12 understanding that the organics, this agricultural 

13 census has only been looking at organics for a short 

14 period of time. And I don't know how much they're 

15 collecting, specifically on yields. Where we're 

16 looking at yield data is mostly conventional 

17 agriculture. Most of the data that's available 

18 publicly is for conventional agriculture.

19 And so we have to extrapolate what we 

20 might expect from an organic farm. Based on 

21 conventional data, I think it would be really 
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1 helpful if there was more data that was specific 

2 to what we can expect to see on an organic farm. 

3 If we have a bunch of growers that are growing 

4 the same type of thing, it's easy for us to keep 

5 that data for ourselves. I'll give an example. 

6 We -- offices in Latin America that produce a lot 

7 of bananas.

8 And so internally we have some data on 

9 what we would expect to see as boxes per week or 

10 boxes over the course of a year for that. But that 

11 data is less available for organic-specific 

12 information. And I see in the comments, there's 

13 a link to some surveys from NASS, the National Ag 

14 Statistics Service, but more data and more specific 

15 data would be really, really helpful.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And I 

17 lied, I will put one more question to you, Beth. 

18 So as an inspector, if you're doing a mass balance, 

19 would it not be super helpful for an immediate look 

20 back to be able to see did the transaction you're 

21 inspecting exceed the capacity of the farm that 
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1 supplied the inspected party, which the inspection 

2 is occurring?

3 So for example, if I'm inspecting a 

4 dairy, and I see they bought a thousand tons of 

5 hay, but the certificate which they provide me from 

6 the supplier only shows that that farm that they 

7 bought it from only has 10 acres certified, does 

8 that not provide this wealth of opportunity for 

9 inspectors to be citing red flags to -- in their 

10 inspection reports to the certifiers to just do 

11 a better job of data gathering risk?

12 MS. ROTA: The issue with that that I 

13 mentioned in my comments, Nate, is one, you're --

14 when you're doing an inspection, you would then 

15 be reporting on something from another operation, 

16 not the operation that you're inspecting. But, 

17 you know, really, it's not very frequent that --

18 you're just looking at one piece, one transaction, 

19 right? You're not looking at the entirety of that 

20 other farm's sales records. You have one purchase 

21 record from the farm that you're inspecting.
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1 It's really rare that you're going to 

2 see that farm's entire sales in one transaction. 

3 And so it certainly could be useful. But I think 

4 that's where we need to have more certifier 

5 exchange of information and smart coordination 

6 between certifiers to be able to look at those 

7 records through cross-checks. And that should be 

8 part of the process that I think that would be 

9 really great for the NOP to invest resources and 

10 staff and personnel to coordinate that.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think we'll look 

12 forward to following up with you on this, because 

13 there's a lot of good work to be done here. So 

14 thank you so much for your comments and fielding 

15 all of our questions. Really appreciate your 

16 time.

17 MS. ROTA: Absolutely. Happy to do 

18 so.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

20 up is going to be Lee Frankel, followed by Jake 

21 Evans and then Patty Lovera. Lee, if you're on, 
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1 the floor is yours.

2 MR. FRANKEL: Okay. Great. Good 

3 afternoon. My name is Lee Frankel. And I'm 

4 testifying today on behalf of the Coalition for 

5 Ecological Recovery in Organics. CERO is 

6 comprised of numerous utility product suppliers, 

7 businesses, manufacturers, growers, 

8 environmentalists, scientists and proponents of 

9 organic production. Service goals are simple, 

10 ensure that reasonable regulations do not impede 

11 innovation in organic production, allow for the 

12 recovery of nutrients from existing waste streams 

13 to eliminate negative impacts on environmental and 

14 public health, support regenerative soil biology, 

15 strengthen rural communities by increasing 

16 dedicated organic acreage, improve productivity, 

17 and increase equitable consumer access to 

18 organically produced food.

19 What do our members have in common, a 

20 real belief and so how it's real return, whereby 

21 we must be cycling the nutrients from the waste 
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1 one production cycle into the next. A real belief 

2 that organics must show leadership in reducing the 

3 greenhouse gas emissions from our food production 

4 services. A real belief that organic growers can 

5 do even more to prevent leaching of excess 

6 nutrients into our waterways and airways. And a 

7 real belief that the organic industry must evolve 

8 to better preserve carbon stores and wetlands and 

9 grasslands by helping farmers improve their 

10 productivity on the land already under 

11 cultivation.

12 Our members filter processes to 

13 minimize greenhouse gas emissions from the 

14 traditional composting methods for animal waste, 

15 all while abiding by the guidance decision tree 

16 for classification of materials and synthetic or 

17 non-synthetic in the USDA organic handbook to 

18 ensure that we are making non-synthetic products. 

19 Material review organizations including OMRI, 

20 CDFA and the Washington State Department of 

21 Agriculture have confirmed our members' processes 
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1 to be non-synthetic.

2 Recovered nutrients are intended to be 

3 used as a complement to other nutrient sources and 

4 appropriate field management practices. Their 

5 use is not intended to mimic anhydrous ammonia like 

6 in conventional crop production. Instead, the 

7 products are intended to be used as a domestic 

8 climate-smart nitrogen source as part of the 

9 grower's organic systems plan. These 

10 supplemental nitrogen sources are derived from 

11 agricultural feedstocks or represent a major step 

12 in the right direction to minimize the negative 

13 impacts of the widespread use of sodium nitrate 

14 and other overseas organic fertilizer inputs.

15 It's our belief that policies 

16 recommended by the NOSB to the National Organic 

17 Program, which should be science-based and promote 

18 the goals of OFPA. We remain concerned that the 

19 NOSB's technical reports are not thoroughly 

20 reviewed and report on scientific data. Several 

21 stakeholders have previously provided similar 
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1 comments in prior meeting. We're greatly 

2 concerned that NOSB appears inclined to push 

3 organic production into a one-size-fits-all check 

4 off the box approach that completely ignores 

5 geographical differences between growing areas 

6 crops and where inorganic producers and inorganic 

7 production journey.

8 We trust growers to respond to 

9 insight-specific conditions. We believe that 

10 certifiers understand how to review organic 

11 systems plans to verify the improvements in soil 

12 health that recovered nitrogen products can 

13 support. We believe these products on replacing 

14 organic markets to address the goals of USDA 

15 climate-smart initiatives, as well as USDA's newly 

16 announced initiatives and support innovative 

17 American-made fertilizer to give U.S. farmers more 

18 choices in the marketplace. Thanks.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Lee. 

20 Any questions for Lee from the Board? Amy?

21 MEMBER BRUCH: Sure. Lee, thank you 
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1 so much for your written comments and oral 

2 comments. Really appreciate. My question is in 

3 terms of the role of return cycling nutrients. 

4 You touched on that briefly just now. We heard 

5 another commenter mention about the need for 

6 boundaries when we are recycling -- when the 

7 organic community is recycling nutrients, such as 

8 the example that was brought up as printed 

9 newspaper. I was just curious on your thoughts 

10 on those types of boundaries, that recycling is 

11 good, but we also need to be very specific in what 

12 we're recycling.

13 MR. FRANKEL: Thank you. And in this 

14 case, a proposal before the Board is specifically 

15 kind of products derived from animal waste, and 

16 that are already being used in the compost and other 

17 ways. So, you know, the question seems to be kind 

18 of moving us away from the real issue of, you know, 

19 how can we take things that have been considered 

20 organic for the National Organic Program began and 

21 make sure that those products are being used 
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1 responsibly.

2 I think that the -- you know, the 

3 efforts to put a percent limit on it is something 

4 that recognizes that there, you know, could be 

5 limit how products are used. But I guess getting 

6 back to your return question, it seems like this 

7 is a product that's already being used, or this 

8 is a source that's already being used. I totally 

9 understand why we would want to be very excluded. 

10 Or that this isn't printed colored paper, this 

11 is basic products coming from the livestock 

12 production sector where we're saying that we no 

13 longer want to have organic beef, we no longer want 

14 organic milk, organic eggs and kind of what are 

15 we supposed to do with the -- you know, some of 

16 the byproducts of that those production systems.

17 I believe that we should be 

18 incorporating them back into the crop production 

19 system. And I don't really see this as being 

20 something like kind of printed paper.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I would just --
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1 MEMBER BRUCH: Lee, thank you for your 

2 comments. Go ahead, Nate.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sorry. I have a 

4 quick follow-up. Lee, what do we do with the waste 

5 products now? I think that there's a big demand 

6 for poultry litter across the board. It seems like 

7 organic farmers are using it up. So I'm not quite 

8 tracking what you're saying with why would we lose 

9 eggs, beef and milk without these novel 

10 technologies?

11 MR. FRANKEL: Yes, I think it was kind 

12 of a real specific question saying, you know, 

13 should we put some limits on what we return back 

14 to the earth. And, again, maybe like used oil 

15 drums, you know, maybe you don't want to shut them 

16 up and put them in the field. But you're saying 

17 the growers use those byproducts from, you know, 

18 livestock production. So I'm in agreement that 

19 should be included in them. And that, you know, 

20 I would disagree that we would want to exclude those 

21 products from being part of the overall return.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

2 you. Any other questions? Seeing none, thank you 

3 for your comments, Lee. Appreciate your time.

4 MR. FRANKEL: Thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up is Jake 

6 Evans and we have a presentation.

7 MR. EVANS: Can you all hear me?

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. So bear 

9 with us just one second and we'll get your 

10 presentation.

11 MR. EVANS: Oh, is it not?

12 MS. ARSENAULT: Decided not to use it. 

13 Yes. So we're good.

14 MR. EVANS: Okay. Sounds good. All 

15 right. Thank you. Good afternoon. My name is 

16 Jake Evans. I'm the owner and CEO of True Organic 

17 Products. True has been in business for 18 years 

18 providing high-quality and compliant organic 

19 fertilizers to the production community. True is 

20 committed to ensure the USDA organic still remains 

21 the gold standard for agricultural production. 
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1 True filed the original petition to examine ammonia 

2 extracts in 2020.

3 First, I would like to thank NOSB and 

4 the crops subcommittee for the success of the work 

5 done thus far in completing their recommendation 

6 on the use of ammonia extract in organic crop 

7 production. It is evident from the stakeholder 

8 engagement and the newly announced vote to 

9 prohibiting just how important the proper 

10 regulation of this category of substance is.

11 The discussions at the fall meeting 

12 focused mainly on a process for creating ammonia 

13 via concentration of sugar. However, recently at 

14 True we focused on the stabilization process and 

15 discovered information that was not fully 

16 considered in the TR. The TR focused on the use 

17 of non-synthetic acid for pH adjustment, but did 

18 not consider that an ammonia a change in pH results 

19 in a chemical change.

20 Additionally, the technical for the 

21 stabilization of ammonia from a non-synthetic 
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1 source by addition of a non-synthetic acid during 

2 the manufacturing process always produces a 

3 non-synthetic final product. True found that 

4 using either a synthetic or non-synthetic acid to 

5 stabilize ammonia results in a chemical change, 

6 creating a synthetic material under often.

7 Unfortunately, the flawed information 

8 or TR was used as the basis of the classification 

9 of a), this cannot and should not be ignored, as 

10 it is a highly consequential or to remedy the 

11 situation to as ordered, requested the crop 

12 subcommittee to reconsider a's classification 

13 decision. To further this process, True will file 

14 a petition in the very near future with its scope 

15 limited to the classification issues.

16 True will share a newly developed 

17 flowchart describing different subclasses of a 

18 category based not only the techniques used to 

19 manufacture ammonia, but also to stabilize it. 

20 True's updated petition will share that, one, NOSB 

21 and NOP have the most up-to-date classification 
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1 analysis. Two, NOSB has information needed to 

2 refine the classification decisions. Three, the 

3 recommended prohibition on the use of 

4 non-synthetic AE (phonetic) is restricted to the 

5 types of AE that are in fact non-synthetic.

6 Four, we want share synthetic a 

7 substance that originated from concentration or 

8 stripping process are properly identified. And 

9 five, will enter the rulemaking process for AE with 

10 the most accurate information. In closing, True 

11 urges the crop subcommittee to expedite our 

12 upcoming petition to reclassify certain subclasses 

13 of manufacturer A substance to support NOSB 

14 discussions.

15 We suggest that limited scope TR focus 

16 specifically on the chemistry of stabilization of 

17 AE. We at True believe that these actions will 

18 not build -- will not only build on the great work 

19 you've already done on AE, but will also conserve 

20 the limited resources of NOSB, NOP and the organic 

21 community. Thank you.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

2 comments. Looks like Logan has a question.

3 MEMBER PETREY: Hey, thank you. Jake, 

4 so in your statement, saying that there may be 

5 something that needs to be followed up in a TR, 

6 there were a lot of stakeholders that, you know, 

7 stated a lot of things in the TR that seemed to 

8 have holes through it and that needed to be looked 

9 at again. I know you're specifically wanting a 

10 limited TR.

11 But I'm curious if that's going to open 

12 it up to a lot of other people who had concerns 

13 that we need to look at if we as a board are saying, 

14 you know what, the TR is not sufficient, we need 

15 to look through. So I'm wondering if other people 

16 are going to, you know, say, well, we disagree with 

17 other parts of the TR and start adding in a lot 

18 of other petitions against that topic?

19 MR. EVANS: Yes. I don't know what 

20 other people are going to do. I know when it comes 

21 to the specific area of the TR, it's a pretty 
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1 science-based -- very science-based argument. So 

2 I can't control what other people think. I know, 

3 based on the 13 to 1 vote and the broad stakeholder 

4 community, I think there was a lot of compasses. 

5 In this particular, we're talking about Motion 

6 Number 1, and the classification issue.

7 MEMBER PETREY: All right. Okay. 

8 And I see with, you know, liquid fish products, 

9 things like that, I mean, we're adding an acid to 

10 it and stabilize it as well in it which you may 

11 have products that do that and they're underneath 

12 the synthetic use of the 205.601 for that?

13 MR. EVANS: Well, that's -- yes, that's 

14 exactly what we're talking about, Logan, is, it's 

15 not a synthetic. It's not an acid to stabilize 

16 for microbial growth. It's an acid that causes 

17 chemical change. So it's much a difference, but 

18 that's why the TR I think would be useful.

19 MEMBER PETREY: So -- sure. I mean, 

20 even if the intention is different, do you think 

21 that there's any change in liquid fish in the 
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1 ammonia or anything in it when you add an acid to 

2 it? I know the intention is to prevent microbial 

3 growth, but do you think anything has changed 

4 chemically in that too?

5 MR. EVANS: No. No, I think, it's --

6 when it comes to the ammonium what we've seen, it's 

7 a chemical change. We're not talking about 

8 microbial degradation pH for microbial --

9 MEMBER PETREY: Right. Yes, I just 

10 didn't know if there was any ammonia, you know --

11 MR. EVANS: Yes --

12 MEMBER PETREY: -- in the liquid fish 

13 products that would be subject to the chemical 

14 change?

15 MR. EVANS: Liquid fish is actually a 

16 proof synthetic, because they have a synthetic 

17 acid.

18 MEMBER PETREY: Correct.

19 MR. EVANS: Yes.

20 MEMBER PETREY: That's right. Yes. 

21 So I was just clarifying, yes.
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1 MR. EVANS: But I mean, that's why it 

2 -- the TR would be great look, minimize TR to look 

3 at that exact issue.

4 MEMBER PETREY: Okay. Thank you, 

5 Jake.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

7 comments, Jake. Moving on, we've got Patty Lovera 

8 next, John Foster after that, followed up by 

9 Margaret Scoles. Patty?

10 MS. LOVERA: Okay. Hi, everybody. 

11 My name is Patty Lovera. I'm the policy director 

12 for Organic Farmers Association. I'm going to 

13 cover a couple of topics and Kate Mendenhall, our 

14 director is going to cover a couple more in a little 

15 while.

16 So the first one on my list is the 

17 discussion document on traceability 

18 infrastructure. This is a hot topic for our 

19 members and it's been a high priority since OFA 

20 began. And OFA does support including acreage per 

21 crop on the organic certificate. But one issue 
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1 that our folks flagged was needing to make sure 

2 it works for different types of operations so it 

3 doesn't create a burden for some farmers that maybe 

4 do things a little differently.

5 So the example that came up is, 

6 producers who grow a lot of varieties every year 

7 on a fairly small parcel, might need a different 

8 way to estimate acreage, if they're doing lots of 

9 things on small acreage so that doesn't become a 

10 burden to put on the certificate. And then we also 

11 heard concerns from folks about using succession 

12 planting and if you're going to run into issues 

13 about what you're doing per year, not lining up 

14 with your acreage, if you're doing things on pretty 

15 fast cycles.

16 But they wanted to do this, but just 

17 flag that making sure it works for folks who farm 

18 that way. Our folks also supported including 

19 acres per crop on the certificate as well as in 

20 making it public-facing in the organic integrity 

21 database. A lot of our farmers are working with 
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1 certifiers who already do this, and they really 

2 saw a benefit in standardizing that. Across all 

3 of organic, we did hear that some large food 

4 processors require farmers to sign nondisclosure 

5 agreements that forbid them from disclosing this 

6 type of information.

7 So if NOP required of everyone, you 

8 wouldn't have buyers asking some, you know, putting 

9 it in some contracts. If that was part of the 

10 organic standards, everybody would have to do it. 

11 And then we wouldn't have some buyers asking for 

12 this nondisclosure for people thought that was the 

13 way to deal with that problem. And then on the 

14 universal bill of lading, we had really a lot of 

15 enthusiasm from grain growers. And then the same 

16 idea caused stress for other types of growers who 

17 have different types of transactions like folks 

18 who grow leafy greens who have like very frequent 

19 transactions all of the time.

20 So we suggest that maybe there's -- it's 

21 worth thinking about common forms or universal 
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1 forms per sector, right? And there's a different 

2 paperwork need for the types of transactions if 

3 you're doing bulk shipment of grain versus, you 

4 know, dairy versus vegetables, things like that. 

5 And this also seems like an opportunity as we are 

6 developing new forms to be very deliberate, 

7 thinking about making them accessible for 

8 non-English speakers like starting from the 

9 beginning with the idea that there are language 

10 issues we could address so that organic is open 

11 to everybody, especially folks who are new to 

12 organic, that this doesn't have to be a barrier 

13 to being organic.

14 And then quickly on the excluded 

15 methods, we support finishing these definitions, 

16 getting them done, so that we can be as current 

17 as we can be. And we agree with the addition of 

18 cell fusion and protoplast fusion as outlined, but 

19 just like we heard from Jaydee, I think that 

20 recombinant DNA should be changed in vitro nucleic 

21 acid technologies so that we get more comprehensive 
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1 and we can line up with as international standards 

2 like Codex. Thanks.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

4 comments, Patty. Based on your surveys, do you 

5 think -- I believe it was a question posed to Julia 

6 Barton of OFA that listing mixed vegetables, say 

7 for those very sort of micro plots of rotational 

8 vegetables, would that sort of fall and thus raise 

9 the concerns of your constituents?

10 MS. LOVERA: I think so. Yes. They 

11 just didn't want to have to do -- you people were 

12 thinking about small operations that do a lot of 

13 things in less than an acre and how I do that math. 

14 And this comes up for conservation programs when 

15 people deal with NRCS like I'm translating, you 

16 know, feet into acres, because I have -- you know, 

17 I do different beds and I do a lot of things. So 

18 I think if there was an option to do mixed 

19 vegetables or there was an option to say less than 

20 an acre or something like that, it just doesn't 

21 become this like mathematical exercise that shifts 
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1 especially if you do a lot of things in a season, 

2 because you're doing succession planting it didn't 

3 -- we didn't want that to become a deterrent to 

4 farming that way if that's how you farm.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

6 other questions? Yes, Kim.

7 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you for your 

8 comments, Patty. Out of curiosity, were specific 

9 languages for subcommittee would be Spanish, but 

10 were other languages mentioned that would be 

11 helpful when looking at presenting BOL (phonetic) 

12 information, you know, with multiple language 

13 sources?

14 MS. LOVERA: I mean, Spanish is the one 

15 that comes to mind. I think in some parts of the 

16 country Hmong would be high on the list. But I 

17 think that's also something as you move forward 

18 with developments we should ask, you know, farming 

19 groups on the ground who -- and especially if we 

20 see, you know -- and we're having a conversation 

21 about transition and getting close to transition 
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1 like what communities are out there doing that work 

2 what, you know, grassroots organizations are 

3 trying to train people who are in their 

4 communities.

5 And I think if we did some quick asking 

6 around we could come up with, you know, the top 

7 needs, but the two that we hear the most about are 

8 Spanish and Hmong. But I'm sure in other parts 

9 of the country there's other needs.

10 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Great question, 

12 Kim.

13 MS. LOVERA: But this also seems just 

14 baking in from the beginning, so we're not after 

15 the fact saying, oh, how are we going to translate 

16 these, like let's think about it as we design new 

17 forms.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

19 much for your comments, Patty. Really appreciate 

20 your work. Next up will be John Foster, followed 

21 by Margaret Scoles and then Kate Mendenhall. 
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1 John, floor is yours.

2 MR. FOSTER: Thank you, sir. Thanks 

3 for the opportunity to participate in this process. 

4 It's one of my favorite times of the year. And 

5 thanks especially to the NOP staff and Board 

6 members for the ongoing commitment. I know it's 

7 not a small deal, but without you and the organic 

8 community together, the positive change wouldn't 

9 be reachable. So thank you.

10 My name is John Foster, I'm with Wolf 

11 & Associates, a consulting firm specializing in 

12 growing organics with integrity is probably a good 

13 as any summary. I'd like to especially welcome 

14 the new Board members on this long strange trip 

15 you're about to take. And I had five points I might 

16 just throw out to -- for suggestions.

17 Take the time to think about everything 

18 really critically, it's important. Consider 

19 everything with an open mind, favor evidence over 

20 opinion, and do what you can to get more ground 

21 in organic production. That's my opinion. First 
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1 slide appear is one of just two I have. I'd like 

2 to also just ask you to refer to a more detailed 

3 written comments from which these two short topics 

4 are pulled.

5 And these two are -- I liked are 

6 aspirational. So think about what could be, not 

7 necessarily what is. Around 605, we're pretty big 

8 at advocating for in the interest of encouraging 

9 more organic production by applying commercial 

10 availability to all items on 605. And we've had 

11 some experience, some evidence, a lot of confidence 

12 that there's existing opportunities for 

13 development of more organic -- certified organic 

14 ingredients and inputs.

15 But that is going to require commercial 

16 demand. There are several items on both the 

17 synthetic and the non-synthetic portions of 605 

18 that I think could be produced using certified 

19 organic inputs and compliant processes. And we 

20 definitely want to support a mechanism to favor 

21 these organic analogues over other inputs that are 
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1 now on 605.

2 Second is another kind of novel concept 

3 I've been fooling around with, that is the 

4 commercial availability registry. I'd like --

5 we'd like to advocate that ACAs provide data to 

6 NOP listing the analysis and allowances they've 

7 made after confirming lack of commercial 

8 availability of inputs or ingredients. And this 

9 could apply for example, everything between seeds 

10 and flavors, everything in between. But if that 

11 aggregated and anonymized data could then be made 

12 public, then producers, suppliers, manufacturers 

13 would have that data that would incentivize 

14 research, incentivize development and 

15 commercialization of certified organic analogues.

16 I believe this will provide good new 

17 markets for organic crops and more options for 

18 manufacturers to go organic. Certainly, both of 

19 these options have -- you know, they're 

20 challenging, they're novel, but I think the -- I 

21 think any challenges on certification or problems 
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1 that come up can be met. And if you will allow 

2 me I believe that the organic juice would be worth 

3 the squeeze. Thanks very much.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

5 much, John. Kyla?

6 MEMBER SMITH: Hi John. Thank you for 

7 your comments.

8 MR. FOSTER: Hi Kyla.

9 MEMBER SMITH: I was wondering if you 

10 had any thoughts on who might be the owner of said 

11 commercial availability registry, because I 

12 believe at one point in time and not the too far 

13 distant past was a registry and it sort of fell 

14 by the wayside because of upkeep. So if you had 

15 any thoughts on that, I'd love to hear them.

16 MR. FOSTER: Yes. This is where I 

17 would love to see some of the newfound funding of 

18 NOP pick it and make it -- institutionalize it. 

19 I think that past experience, and that wasn't the 

20 first try that was -- there were several tries 

21 before that. And you're right. They -- none of 
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1 them lasted. I feel like outside of an 

2 institutionalized owner of it, it -- the same thing

3 will likely happen.

4 I also feel like the -- it's appropriate 

5 because this commercial availability clause is 

6 part of the regulation. Like it's part and parcel 

7 of the regulation and it ought to be owned by public 

8 really through in my opinion governmental process.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Well, 

10 thank you both. Thank you for that question, Kyla. 

11 I felt like I could tack on a few more questions 

12 about how do we create all these registries 

13 necessary for many things, but we'll talk offline, 

14 John, to brainstorm more.

15 MR. FOSTER: You know where to find me. 

16 Yes.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

18 you for your comments. Next up is Margaret Scoles, 

19 then Kate Mendenhall, followed by Rodgers Koech. 

20 Margaret --

21 MS. ARSENAULT: I'm not seeing 
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1 Margaret on the line with us. Haven't been able 

2 to find her.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. We'll go 

4 on, Margaret, if you're there. Please let us know 

5 and we'll fit you in as we move through. So next 

6 up, Kate Mendenhall.

7 MS. MENDENHALL: Great. Thank you 

8 NOSB members for the opportunity to speak before 

9 you today. Welcome to the new members. My name 

10 is Kate Mendenhall, and I'm the executive director 

11 of the Organic Farmers Association.

12 OFA was created to be a strong national 

13 voice and advocate for domestic certified organic 

14 farmers. Today, it will be addressing highly 

15 soluble fertilizers, human capital and 

16 climate-smart agriculture. OFA strongly supports 

17 the concept of feeding the soil, not the plant. 

18 We support limiting the use of highly soluble 

19 nutrients for use in organic production, because 

20 such use is incompatible with OFPA and good soil 

21 health practices.
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1 Our farmers have voted to prohibit 

2 ammonia extract and sodium nitrate. OFA strongly 

3 supports human capital management efforts to 

4 better support the work of the Board and its 

5 members. It is vital the NOSB be fully 

6 representative of the organic community. Farmers 

7 and other members of the organic community who are 

8 self-employed often have large out-of-pocket 

9 expenses to cover their time spent fulfilling NOSB 

10 responsibilities.

11 We support the NOP hiring research 

12 assistants to support Board member-driven research 

13 needs restricted to summarizing literature 

14 reviews, technical reports and summaries of public 

15 comments. Managing conflict of interest and 

16 confidentiality commitments and then sharing that 

17 these assistants have organic knowledge is 

18 essential. We also encourage the NOP to consider 

19 expanding the allowable expenses for Board members 

20 to cover on-farm replacement labor, childcare, et 

21 cetera so that self-employed are not facing 
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1 economic hardship by volunteering their expertise 

2 to the NOSB.

3 In response to the NOP memo on February 

4 23rd requesting that the NOSB facilitate public 

5 discussion and "explore how organic can advance 

6 in tandem with climate-smart agriculture to 

7 support our planet and our farmers," I would like 

8 to emphasize the contradiction that allowing 

9 certified organic hydroponic production poses to 

10 this effort.

11 The NOP asks the NOSB to "help reinforce 

12 and capture the connections between climate-smart 

13 agriculture and what many certified organic 

14 farmers are already doing." We support this and 

15 we highlight that organic soil farming sequesters 

16 carbon and hydroponic farming does not yet all the 

17 questions NOP asks around climate-smart farming 

18 and organic assumes soil-based production systems.

19 Avoiding the issue of organic hydro is 

20 creating a huge mess in the marketplace that 

21 contradicts the value of organic. Organic 
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1 hydroponic production is undefined, lack 

2 standards. It's growing at a rapid pace. The 

3 NOSB recommendations on greenhouse production are 

4 now a decade outdated as technology in this 

5 industry has changed dramatically. The NOSB has 

6 tools to restore organics place as a climate-smart 

7 leader and must use its authority to do so by 

8 addressing greenhouse production and hydroponics. 

9 Thank you.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

11 for your comments, Kate. Kyla Smith has a 

12 question.

13 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Thank you. I 

14 wanted to ask you about the statement in your 

15 written comments about highly soluble nitrogen 

16 fertilizers, where it was stated that your 

17 committee and your members expressed concern over 

18 the ability for certifiers and inspectors and 

19 producers to be able to monitor this. And while 

20 they do in general oppose, you know, this concept 

21 and so would be in support of the prohibition. 
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1 So how are you balancing that? How are you 

2 providing support what things can NOSB or NOP due 

3 to bridge that gap between this need and concern 

4 with where we are with the prohibition that people 

5 are expressing an interest for?

6 MS. MENDENHALL: Yes, sure. I mean, 

7 I think that our policy committee put their effort 

8 into a broader policy. So, I don't have -- you 

9 know, aside from the 20 percent, I do think that 

10 that's a concern that hasn't been expressed before. 

11 I think farmers are feeling a concern about overly 

12 burdened paperwork and record-keeping like we 

13 heard Javier describe earlier, I think that's a 

14 concern.

15 I think right now is a tricky time for 

16 farmers. There's a lot of fertilizer angst at the 

17 moment with high prices of synthetic fertilizer 

18 driving conventional farmers to use our typical 

19 organic fertilizer sources. So it's a little bit 

20 of a stressful fertilizer time for farmers at the 

21 moment. And I think that sort of put that in the 
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1 context of this conversation could have driven us 

2 to not pass this specific policy.

3 So we actually are meeting our -- with 

4 our policy committee on Thursday and I'm hoping 

5 to tease out a little bit more understanding about 

6 why this 3 to 1 proposal did not pass our original 

7 policy process so that I can provide the Board with 

8 a little bit more understanding of if it was 

9 particularly tied to this proposal, or if it was 

10 in the broader context of just wanting a broader 

11 proposal that our committee wanted to support, or 

12 if it was just a tiredness about -- talking about, 

13 you know, the state of fertilizer at the moment.

14 So I apologize I can't give you more 

15 specifics right now, but I'm hoping to do so. And 

16 I'll put something in the chat or e-mail that you're 

17 here to share with the Board if I can do so on 

18 Thursday.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

20 you for your comments, Kate. Next up, we have --

21 I think we said Rodger Koech is not on the Zoom 
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1 that we're seeing. So go to Mark Kastel and then 

2 followed by Ben Silverman and Phil LaRocca. Mark, 

3 the floor is yours.

4 MR. KASTEL: Thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And just a second 

6 while we reset the timer. There we go. All right.

7 MR. KASTEL: I prefer the Harold Austin 

8 routine. My entire presentation will be my 

9 introduction. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 

10 is Mark Kastel. I'm the executive director of 

11 OrganicEye. For all of you who truly care about 

12 the integrity of the organic label, I'm here to 

13 alert you that the certification process which 

14 we've been talking about, as it's constituted today 

15 is more show than substance. Ineffective 

16 busywork, honest farmers and business people and 

17 the American taxpayers are investing tens of 

18 millions of dollars per year in a system based on 

19 annual inspections.

20 And that system is not catching the 

21 major stop loss. The annual inspections worked 
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1 when I was a certified agricultural producer in 

2 the 1980s as family scale farmers had their heart 

3 in the organic movement, and were either direct 

4 marketers or had personal relationships with their 

5 wholesale buyers. But with over a $60 billion in 

6 commerce today, that system has become a hoax.

7 As one of the country's preeminent 

8 industry watchdogs who has worked with the USDA, 

9 the Justice Department, the FBI, on the industry's 

10 largest cases, I can tell you almost none of them, 

11 almost none of the major fraud investigations have 

12 started with annual inspections. Most have come 

13 from current or former employees or competitors 

14 ratting out the perpetrators.

15 We need to fundamentally reallocate 

16 certification funding to more effectively catch 

17 these offenders as an alternative to putting honest 

18 farmers and handlers through the rear every single 

19 year. An alternative would be to schedule full 

20 inspections and audits conducted every 5 years by 

21 very experienced individuals with backgrounds in 
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1 production agriculture and forensic accounting, 

2 supplemented by liberal unannounced inspections 

3 and testings.

4 Testing right now, neophytes, 

5 sometimes fresh out of the university, many without 

6 any experience or background in production ag, 

7 processing or accounting are going toe-to-toe with 

8 experienced fraudsters. These agriculturalists 

9 are having their lunch every day. As envisioned, 

10 this reallocation of resources should be 

11 revenue-neutral annual inspections only when they 

12 are warranted, very comprehensive reviews once 

13 every 5 years punctuated by ample unannounced 

14 inspections, spot audits, and abundance of 

15 testing.

16 The multimillion dollar domestic and 

17 international frauds that become public are an 

18 embarrassment. But do any of you think that we 

19 are doing anything more than capturing the tip of 

20 the iceberg? I guarantee you, and I was just 

21 working with the FBI on a case last week, that there 
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1 are problems out there, a multiplicity of problems 

2 that will undermine this industry and maybe scuttle 

3 it at some point.

4 If organic stakeholders from farming 

5 communities, processors, marketers, or the USDA 

6 officials would like to discuss these options 

7 further, I would really encourage you to contact 

8 us at OrganicEye. Thank you very much.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

10 comments. Logan has a question.

11 MEMBER PETREY: Hi, thank you. I love 

12 the idea of really specialized people. Ag is very 

13 complex and there's a lot of ways I guess people 

14 can get around. Question on those 5-year audits, 

15 you know, unexpected audits. Will you be prepared 

16 that pays for those audits. I know that a lot of 

17 times small farms, I'm sure any farm, it can be 

18 very costly to get inspectors over and with that 

19 amount of time. And that specialization, I would 

20 imagine would cost more. Who do you expect that 

21 would pay for that?
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1 MR. KASTEL: Well, again, I'm -- okay, 

2 this is back of the envelope estimates. This 

3 should be revenue-neutral. We're going to 

4 eliminate 4 of the 5 years of annual inspections 

5 and concentrate those resources on doing it once. 

6 So, I just get too many reports of what -- farmers 

7 are acquiring drive-by certifications. The 

8 documents that are the key are not being analyzed.

9 I had a conversation with the head 

10 marketer of the -- one of the grain cooperative 

11 -- organic grain cooperates in the country. And 

12 we were commiserating saying, look, this is all 

13 about creative writing. People are reviewing 

14 documents that aren't really qualified. And we 

15 were saying, look, we've been doing this for 

16 decades, if we wanted to cheat, how hard would it 

17 be? And he was saying it would be easy.

18 And, you know, that might be an 

19 oversimplification. But part of problem is that 

20 there's a economic disincentive for certifiers to 

21 find problems. If there is a world of trouble for 
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1 the certifiers and a world of expense, if they --

2 it's like imagine the policeman out on the beat, 

3 and in a half-an-hour, he's going to punch out, 

4 and his wife's going to have a hot dinner for him 

5 or her husband on the table. And then they find 

6 a real problem and they're going to have to write 

7 it up, you know, mediation, potential for 

8 litigation, engaging with the USDA. I'm not 

9 saying they're not doing it when they find it.

10 But there's a disincentive. And right 

11 now we have people that aren't seasoned and 

12 experienced doing quick work. They've had some 

13 rudimentary training. Their heart's in the right 

14 place, but we are missing the big picture. And 

15 it's possible to capture it. But right now, we're 

16 finding it after the fact.

17 I will remind you that the USDA said 

18 that everything was fine and buttoned down for 

19 years. And then we -- 75 percent of the Black Sea 

20 region, importers lost their certification after 

21 the Washington Post, who I worked with, have 
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1 spotlighted the problem. You know, after the fact 

2 doesn't cut it. We've got to be more proactive.

3 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Mark. 

5 Appreciate your work. Next up we have -- oh, yes. 

6 Oh, yes, great. Next up we have Ben Silverman 

7 followed by Phillip LaRocca and then Jane Sooby. 

8 Ben, the floor is yours.

9 MR. SILVERMAN: All right. Thank you, 

10 everyone, for the opportunity to comment today. 

11 My name is Ben Silverman, co-founder and chief 

12 technology officer at Upward Farms located in 

13 Brooklyn. We're an aquaponic vertical farming 

14 company growing leafy greens and fish with the 

15 highest ecology standards and quality standards, 

16 so everyone can nourish their body, family and 

17 planet.

18 We've been in business over 9 years, 

19 and we look forward to continued growth as we set 

20 out to build our next farm in Pennsylvania. We 

21 support the prop subcommittee recommendation to 
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1 add carbon dioxide at section 205.601 A&J as 

2 petitioned. Our experience has been that the use 

3 of current alternatives such as the use of a sulfur 

4 burner to produce sulfuric acid to treat water has 

5 negative implications, both for the operators and 

6 the environment.

7 Burning sulfur produces sulfur 

8 dioxide, but not all the sulfur dioxide dissipates 

9 into the water, rather some is emitted into the 

10 air. That sulfur dioxide is toxic if inhaled, 

11 contributes to acid rain if emitted to the 

12 atmosphere. And in order to use those sulfur 

13 burners, we have to take significant steps to 

14 reduce those emissions as much as possible to avoid 

15 danger to the operators and the environment.

16 Additionally, the sulfur pellets are 

17 highly flammable and require special handling and 

18 storage. All in all, it's a very expensive 

19 operation to do it right, ensure that we don't 

20 create any environmental health and safety 

21 hazards. While there are some industries that 
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1 generate non-synthetic carbon dioxide as a 

2 byproduct of biological processes, there's 

3 currently inadequate infrastructure to support its 

4 use.

5 There have been small-scale carbon 

6 dioxide recapture systems, but nothing has been 

7 developed for our scale, and thus we need to 

8 contract a custom design and build. Additionally, 

9 it's difficult to find a partner that we'd be able 

10 to supply the volume and consistency we require 

11 in the local market, which would -- also has 

12 necessitated refrigerated trucking from great 

13 distances to meet our needs and have its own 

14 footprint attached to it.

15 We're committed to locating 

16 non-synthetic sources. However, until synthetic 

17 sources are available -- sorry, until sufficient 

18 sources are available, synthetic sources are a 

19 necessity. For these reasons, we support this 

20 petition and urge the Board to follow the prop 

21 subcommittee proposal and vote to add carbon 
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1 dioxide at 205.601 A&J. Thank you again for the 

2 opportunity to provide these comments and your 

3 consideration.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

5 comments. Any questions for Ben? All right, Ben. 

6 Thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Next 

7 up, we have Phil LaRocca followed by Jane Sooby 

8 and then Emily Musgrave.

9 MR. LaROCCA: Well, I'm in California, 

10 so I'm going to start off by saying good morning 

11 even though it's late morning. Anyway, my name 

12 is Phil LaRocca. I'm the owner and winemaker at 

13 LaRocca Vineyards. I'm in the process of passing 

14 the baton to the next generation. I also sit on 

15 the California Organic Product Advisory board. 

16 And I am the chairman of the board for CCOF. I 

17 was first certified in 1975, so I've been around 

18 the organic community for quite some time.

19 I want to comment on a few inputs that 

20 are being looked at that have been around as long 

21 as I have. The first one I want to address is 
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1 bentonite. Bentonite is a colonial clay that we 

2 use in the wine industry to subtract excess 

3 proteins out of the wine, in particular white wines 

4 and roses. There are synthetic comparisons to 

5 this, but even commercial wineries will use the 

6 bentonite, because it is more efficient, little 

7 more of a hassle to prep, but definitely more

8 efficient.

9 The second input I want to address is 

10 diatomaceous earth, which has been around from the 

11 first meetings when a bunch of guys like myself 

12 got together and called ourselves organic farms 

13 because we didn't use any synthetic controls in 

14 growing our crops. Diatomaceous earth has been 

15 around as a organic pesticide and has been a great 

16 tool for the organic farmer. And the processing 

17 in the early days, we actually used diatomaceous 

18 earth as part of a filtration product process.

19 We do not use it anymore, but there are 

20 several wineries that still plate -- plate filter 

21 and diatomaceous earth is essential to that form 
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1 of operation. Tartaric acid, again, been around 

2 forever. Tartaric acid is a byproduct of 

3 winemaking. And for us as an organic winery, it 

4 is a tool that we use with other methods. But it's 

5 a tool that we use to help control our pH. And 

6 by controlling our pH with the tartaric acid 

7 affords us the opportunity where we don't have to 

8 use any synthetic preservatives in our wine.

9 The last one I want to talk about is 

10 copper. Again, copper has got some restrictions 

11 as it should be, but it is a tool that grape growers 

12 use, stone fruit growers totally dependent on it 

13 and ammo growers as well. This was one of the very 

14 earliest tools, in the early days I grew apples 

15 and some peaches. This was one of the earliest 

16 organic tools that we had to fight curly leaf. 

17 We also use copper as a form of not having to use 

18 water for frost protection.

19 With that said, I'm going to end by 

20 saying I'm very grateful that the NOP finally put 

21 into effect the origin of livestock. It's 
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1 unfortunate, and I had to emphasize the word 

2 finally. I'm hoping that in the future when the 

3 organic community is so together to support an 

4 issue that it can be act on quite a bit sooner. 

5 Thank you for your time.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

7 much for your comments, Phillip. Any questions 

8 from the Board? All right, again, thank you, 

9 Phillip. Next up, we have Jane Sooby followed by 

10 Emily Musgrave. And then, can it be -- apologies, 

11 I'm getting this right, Gullatte. All right, 

12 Jane, the floor is yours.

13 MS. SOOBY: Thank you. Hello, I'm 

14 Jane Sooby with California Certified Organic 

15 Farmers, CCOF. First of all, I'd like to welcome 

16 new members to the NOSB. It's so good to see you 

17 here. I'd like to thank all NOSB members as well 

18 as NOP staff for their dedication to this 

19 democratic process of continual organic 

20 improvement.

21 As an accredited certification agency, 
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1 CCOF's guiding principle and comments to NOSB and 

2 NOP is advocating for standards and procedures that 

3 contribute to consistent decision-making between 

4 certifiers. Consistency is a crucial cornerstone 

5 of organic integrity. Consistency arises from 

6 clear and specific rules that have little room for 

7 interpretation, and thus lead to consistent 

8 enforcement by certifiers.

9 The dictionary definition of 

10 consistent is agreeing, in harmony, in accord. 

11 Here are some examples where clear guidance will 

12 lead to greater consistency. Rulemaking for 

13 pending standards. Examples of organic products 

14 that are commonly certified in the absence of 

15 federal rulemaking include honey, mushrooms and 

16 pet food. Organic certifiers are offering 

17 certification of these products using standards 

18 they've developed that are consistent with the NOP 

19 regulations, but without rulemaking there may be 

20 inconsistency between certifier requirements.

21 The materials subcommittee in their 
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1 research priorities discussion document included 

2 the CCOF-suggested priority to research the 

3 creation of an overarching ingredient review 

4 process for ancillaries, incidentals, and inerts 

5 used in organic processing and handling. This is 

6 likely to be a challenging task, but the reward 

7 will be greater clarity in reviewing petitioned 

8 materials, and will standardize decisions made by 

9 certifiers, many of whom have developed their own 

10 approaches to evaluating these materials.

11 And an example of clear direction is 

12 the Compliance Accreditation and Certification 

13 Subcommittee's discussion document on oversight 

14 improvements to deter fraud, where they set forth 

15 specific elements that should be included in a 

16 proposed universal bill of lading. This level of 

17 guidance helps to ensure consistency between 

18 certifiers in developing and auditing such 

19 documents. We understand that some of these 

20 examples require action by the NOP and are not 

21 currently in front of the NOSB. But I hope that 
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1 they inform you as you do your important work. 

2 Thank you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

4 for your comments. Any questions from the Board? 

5 All right, again, appreciate your time today, 

6 Jane. Next up, we have Emily Musgrave, followed 

7 by Kennedy Gullatte and then Robert Rankin. 

8 Emily, the floor is yours. Okay. There we go.

9 MS. MUSGRAVE: Good morning. Can you 

10 hear me okay?

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

12 MS. ARSENAULT: Actually, Emily, 

13 you're a little faint. Can you get closer to the 

14 mic?

15 MS. MUSGRAVE: Is that better?

16 MS. ARSENAULT: Better, thanks.

17 MS. MUSGRAVE: Okay. Good morning. 

18 My name is Emily Musgrave. I'm the organic 

19 regulatory manager at Driscoll's. I would like 

20 to thank the NOSB for their commitment to protect 

21 the integrity of the organic program and uphold 
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1 the vital regulatory processes of the NOP.

2 My comments focus on the continued 

3 allowance of the following materials. Elemental 

4 sulfur, biodegradable biobased mulch film, 

5 polyoxin D zinc salt, humic acid, and 

6 micronutrients. Driscoll's supports the 

7 continued listing of elemental sulfur for use in 

8 organic production on the national list.

9 Elemental sulfur is a critical 

10 amendment for organic strawberry growers to 

11 decrease pH and alkaline soils and control powdery 

12 mildew. Organic strawberry growers commonly use 

13 both dusting sulfur and wettable sulfur in rotation 

14 with each other. Our growers are aware they must 

15 follow all label instructions and dusting sulfur 

16 also needs special attention to wind patterns to 

17 prevent drift.

18 Organic strawberry growers rely 

19 heavily on dusting sulfur and do not believe that 

20 the sole use of wettable sulfur could be a viable 

21 alternative for control of powdery mildew in 
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1 organic production. Growers have found the two 

2 formulations to have different efficacies and 

3 rotating the products limits plant stress, and 

4 reduces the risk of phytotoxicity.

5 Dusting sulfur is preferred over 

6 wettable sulfur, particularly when environmental 

7 pressure of powdery mildew is high, because it gets 

8 more thorough coverage during application. 

9 Driscoll's supports the continued listing of 

10 biodegradable biobased mulch films on the national 

11 list. Driscoll's advocates for keeping BVMS on 

12 the national list as there are still not many widely 

13 available ways to recycle this type of field 

14 plastic.

15 Our growers have long advocated for a 

16 BVMS that they can use on organic branches instead 

17 of taking their polyethylene plastic mulch to the 

18 landfill. Driscoll's supports the continued 

19 re-listing of polyoxin D zinc salt on the national 

20 list, as it is an extremely effective tool to 

21 control botrytis on strawberry, blueberry, and 
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1 raspberry crops. It is one of the most effective 

2 tools our berry growers have against controlling 

3 botrytis in organic systems. And it would be a 

4 huge blow to organic growers to have this material 

5 removed from their toolbox.

6 Driscoll's supports the re-listing of 

7 humic acids on the national list as this is one 

8 of the most widely used soil-applied or fully 

9 applied products used by our growers across all 

10 berry types. Driscoll's advocates for the 

11 re-listing of all micronutrient products up for 

12 re-review on the national list. All the 

13 micronutrient products up for sunset review are 

14 important tools for organic growers, especially 

15 as plant and soil amendments are a critical tool 

16 for producing viable organic plants.

17 I thank the National Organic Standards 

18 Board for your service as always, and for your 

19 consideration of my comments.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

21 your comments and your time today. Any questions 
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1 for Emily from the Board? All right. Thank you 

2 so much, Emily. Next up, we have Kennedy Gullatte 

3 from NOC, followed by Robert Rankin, and then Kiki 

4 Hubbard. And I apologize, am I getting your last 

5 name right?

6 MS. GULLATTE: No, you actually are. 

7 Thank you.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Good, 

9 good. Thank you.

10 MS. GULLATTE: All right. Good 

11 afternoon. I'm Kennedy Gullatte, and I'm speaking 

12 on behalf of the National Organic Coalition, 

13 minority opinions if NOSB's subcommittee decisions 

14 and public materials. NOC urges NOSB committees 

15 to include minority opinions in their published 

16 materials. The omission of minority opinions does 

17 disservice to the democratic process and all the 

18 expertise that comes to this Board.

19 Minority views inform the 

20 deliberations of the whole board, reflect ranges 

21 of views of all state coders and are common to the 
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1 FACA boards. The lack of statement of minority 

2 opinions stifles informed decision-making. 

3 Accuracy of representation matters. Accuracy of 

4 representation matters. When NOSB members 

5 present a summary of a public comment received on 

6 a material petition or other issue, sometimes 

7 comments received on the materials are 

8 misinterpreted by the lead.

9 The lead will state that the comments 

10 are in favor of re-listing when in fact many of 

11 the comments may have come from certifiers who 

12 merely provided the number of operations that lists 

13 the material on the organic system's plan. This 

14 number may not be an accurate representation of 

15 the numbers of operations that are actually using 

16 the material. Since the number does not 

17 accurately reflect the actual use, this data cannot 

18 be properly used. We want to strive to improve 

19 accuracy going forward.

20 Global organic movement consistency, 

21 just as the U.S. Organic Regulatory System benefits 
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1 from consistency of interpretation application, 

2 the international organic movement benefits from 

3 consistency as well. There are a few instances 

4 where the U.S. system conflicts with our trade 

5 partners, organic neighbors, IFOAM 

6 interpretations, and codex regulations. Where 

7 possible, we should bring U.S. instances and 

8 alignment with the global organic movement. 

9 Continuous improvement as a community value, not 

10 values continuous improvement because we 

11 understand that organic agriculture is based on 

12 an understanding of ecology and complex systems.

13 We did not see silver bullets, but 

14 improve ways of working with nature. Continuous 

15 improvement is visible in the innovative 

16 approaches we have seen developed in organic 

17 systems, such as pasteurized poultry and organic 

18 no-till. It's most visible on offer in the sunset 

19 provision which provides for the periodic 

20 reexamination of materials used in organic.

21 Organic agriculture is no longer small 
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1 and it is global. Because of this growth, the USDA 

2 must be willing to engage in rulemaking and 

3 progress towards organic principles. The USDA 

4 must support continuous improvement by educating 

5 the Office of Management and Budget and others to 

6 make frequent regulatory updates as organic grows 

7 toward achieving our goal of agro systems that are 

8 ecologically social, and economically 

9 sustainable. Thank you.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

11 much for your comments. Any questions from the 

12 Board? I have a quick question. You were saying 

13 that it might be misrepresentative of actual 

14 numbers when we receive from certifiers the survey 

15 of operations, who use a given substance. Do you 

16 have a recommendation for how better to gather that 

17 information to inform our understanding of its use 

18 in the industry?

19 MS. GULLATTE: Yes, thank you for that 

20 question. No, that's something that I think I need 

21 to discuss with my organic coalition because I 
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1 think they know a little bit more about the 

2 background of actually how that happens. But I 

3 would love to get back to you when I find the answer, 

4 I'll --

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Would appreciate 

6 it. Thank you, and thank you for your comments. 

7 Next up, we have Robert Rankin, and then Kiki 

8 Hubbard, followed by Matthew Dawson. Robert, the 

9 floor is yours.

10 MR. RANKIN: Thank you. Good 

11 afternoon, everyone. Robert Rankin, 

12 International Food Additives Council. IFAC is an 

13 association representing manufacturers and users 

14 of food ingredients. That includes a number of

15 substances permitted for food -- excuse me, for 

16 use in organic handling.

17 IFAC strongly supports the re-listing 

18 of carbon dioxide and sodium phosphates at 205.605 

19 B, as well as pectin at 205.606. These ingredients 

20 are used in alignment with organic principles, and 

21 they're essential to organic food production. 
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1 Carbon dioxide is used by IFAC members to produce 

2 carbonated organic certified beverage products. 

3 We are not aware of additional commercially 

4 available organic alternatives that have emerged 

5 since the last review.

6 Therefore, removing carbon dioxide 

7 from the national list would likely result in a 

8 reduction in the number of certified organic 

9 carbonated beverages currently on the market. As 

10 a result, carbon dioxide remains essential. 

11 Sodium phosphates also remain essential to organic 

12 food production. Setting phosphates perform 

13 important functions in organic dairy foods, 

14 including stabilizing proteins and promoting 

15 emulsification.

16 While other substances such as citrates 

17 can replace sodium phosphates in some dairy 

18 applications, such as processed cheese products, 

19 our members report sodium phosphates perform 

20 better in most cases, and citrates cannot replace 

21 sodium phosphates in all applications. We are not 
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1 aware of any new or compelling evidence regarding 

2 the potential health impacts of phosphates. 

3 However, I'd like to highlight new research 

4 sponsored by IFAC. This shows the majority of 

5 dietary phosphorus comes from natural sources, and 

6 that added phosphorus in the form of phosphate food 

7 additives has actually decreased in the food supply 

8 between 1998 and 2016.

9 In addition to their use in dairy foods, 

10 sodium phosphates help improve the quality and 

11 stability of meat and poultry products. 

12 Therefore, we not only support re-listing sodium 

13 phosphates for use in dairy foods, but we also ask 

14 the NOSB to consider revising its adaptation to 

15 include meat and poultry products labeled as 

16 organic.

17 Finally, IFAC supports the re-listing 

18 of pectin. Pectin is found in almost all jams and 

19 jellies labeled as organic in the United States. 

20 Pectin is also used in bakery fillings and 

21 toppings, fruit preparations for dairy 
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1 applications, protein drinks, yogurts, 

2 confectionery, fruit beverages, and nutritional 

3 health products labeled organic. Supplies of 

4 organically produced fruit citrus peels remain 

5 insufficient to produce volumes of organic pectin 

6 needed to meet commercial demand for the many 

7 applications where pectin is needed.

8 Therefore, pectin remains essential to 

9 organic food production. Thank you for your 

10 attention. That's all I have.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

12 for your comments. We do have a question. First 

13 Brian and then Kyla.

14 MR. CALDWELL: Thanks, Robert. I 

15 apologize, this isn't about a specific substance, 

16 but several of the consumer groups in particular 

17 have registered concern about some of the toxic 

18 substances that can get into organic foods from 

19 either contact surfaces or packaging surfaces. 

20 And, you know, the PFAS is a big deal, BPA and the 

21 phthalates were also mentioned.
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1 I'm just wondering what your 

2 organization is thinking about how to deal with 

3 this sort of really entrenched problem. And 

4 maybe, I don't know, like I say, I know you haven't 

5 been preparing for this question, but I'd be very 

6 curious to hear --

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, we lost your 

8 mic there, Brian.

9 MR. RANKIN: I think I got the 

10 majority. I think he was about done. I 

11 appreciate the question. You are correct that 

12 this is not something at the top of IFAC's list, 

13 we deal with direct food additives. PFAS, BPA, 

14 phthalates are things I would consider to be 

15 indirect food additives or food packaging 

16 materials. If it's okay with the group, I will 

17 try to get some additional questions, a little 

18 detail into this because again, this is -- I would 

19 venture that this is more of a packaging related 

20 question than it is a food manufacturing question 

21 just in the sense that of using the direct food 
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1 additives that I represent, like phosphates and

2 pectin to go into the food product versus potential 

3 leaching of these materials from packaging.

4 So I also do work with some packaging 

5 groups who might be able to address this question. 

6 So certainly, if I could follow up maybe with 

7 Michelle and get a little bit more detail on the 

8 specific question, and then try to work with some 

9 of these groups between now and the fall meeting 

10 to answer that. It would also -- you know, I'll 

11 take a look as well as some of the comments you 

12 referenced that maybe comment about some of these 

13 materials. So that's what I can -- and maybe try 

14 to do between now and the fall that's helpful.

15 MR. CALDWELL: Great. Thanks a lot. 

16 I really appreciate it. And we're looking for 

17 any kind of input that we can get on these things. 

18 I'm not lead on this topic, but I'm very interested 

19 in it. So thanks very much.

20 MR. RANKIN: Okay. I mean, obviously 

21 any of the -- some of these things you mentioned 
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1 are -- well, I'll take a look at the comments. 

2 So, thank you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

4 you, Brian. Next up is Kyla.

5 MS. SMITH: Robert, thanks for your 

6 comments. I wanted to actually ask you a comment 

7 that is pertaining to your written comments, 

8 particularly around the phosphoric acid annotation 

9 change. You made a statement in the comment that 

10 stated the petitioned expansion will not result 

11 in an increased phosphorus content in finished food 

12 products, and that should not be a concern to the 

13 NOSB.

14 And I just wondered if you could speak 

15 a little bit more to any knowledge that you have 

16 of particular finished food products and like uses 

17 that the particular functionality and application 

18 of phosphoric acid of -- in extraction process as 

19 it was -- or petitioned for the annotation change, 

20 and how that would relate to a finished food product 

21 wasn't entirely clear. So I was just wondering 
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1 if you had any more information in regards to that.

2 MR. RANKIN: Sure. I will first state 

3 that, yes, I can address this in my own comments, 

4 because this is one that we, you know, because we 

5 supported phosphoric acid and do support 

6 phosphoric acid for its existing permissions in 

7 organic food production. And looking at our 

8 comments in your question, my view of use of 

9 phosphoric acid to adjust the pH of an extraction 

10 solvent to extract these materials, in my view, 

11 that is something that's done more on the front-end 

12 of the production process, and that does not mean 

13 that that material would have a real presence in 

14 an ingredient or a food.

15 So, I think that's probably my first 

16 response to your question there. I will say though 

17 that we didn't do as much in terms of looking at 

18 supporting that as we did the sunset review 

19 material. So if there is a little bit more that 

20 we can provide, I can take this back as well and 

21 see whether we can provide a little bit more 
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1 information on our end as to -- you're mostly 

2 interested in whether the petitioned expansion 

3 would result in higher levels of phosphoric acid 

4 or phosphorus in the foods?

5 MS. SMITH: Yes. So just it seems like 

6 that this would be acting more as like a processing 

7 aid, but it wasn't really clear in like what types 

8 of ingredients or it was clear that it was -- would 

9 be used as an extraction process for an ingredient, 

10 but ultimately what then those ingredients like 

11 would get used in finished food products for, it 

12 was not clear. And --

13 MR. RANKIN: Okay. I don't know 

14 either off the top of my head. So let me see if 

15 I can figure it a little bit more on our end and 

16 help provide that for you.

17 MS. SMITH: Thanks.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

19 other questions for Robert? Thank you very much 

20 for your comments and your time, Robert. 

21 Appreciate it.
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1 MR. RANKIN: Thank you.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

3 Kiki Hubbard, followed by Matthew Dawson, and then 

4 Adam Seitz, and then we will take a break. So, 

5 Kiki, good to see you.

6 MS. HUBBARD: Thanks.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All yours.

8 MS. HUBBARD: Thank you. Thanks to 

9 all of you NOSB members and the NOP for creating 

10 this virtual space today. I'm Kiki Hubbard, I'm 

11 the director of advocacy and communications for 

12 Organic Seed Alliance. And for those of you who 

13 aren't familiar with our work, we are a 

14 mission-driven organization that works to ensure 

15 organic farmers have the seed they need to be 

16 successful and we achieve this goal through 

17 research, education and policy advocacy.

18 My comments today will focus on the 

19 materials subcommittee's excluded methods 

20 proposal as well as organic seed. We have been 

21 very supportive of the subcommittee's excluded 
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1 methods work, which spanned, gosh, nearly 10 years 

2 now I believe and we have supported all of the 

3 excluded methods proposals that the Board has 

4 unanimously passed to-date. We also support the 

5 current proposal on determinations for cell and 

6 protoplast fusion. And we strongly support the 

7 Board's recommendation within this proposal that 

8 the NOP develop a formal guidance document to 

9 include the criteria, definitions and excluded and 

10 allowed methods tables that were developed as part 

11 of previous proposals.

12 I think we can all agree that 

13 understanding and addressing plant breeding 

14 techniques that may or may not align with the 

15 excluded methods definition is critical work, and 

16 that the lack of clarity risks slowing progress 

17 toward another organic integrity goal, which is 

18 to plants more organic seed on organic land. And 

19 this is an important point of context for the 

20 excluded methods conversation because regulating 

21 excluded methods is more feasible within the 
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1 confines of certified organic seed production than 

2 it is within the conventional seed space.

3 And as long as growers -- organic 

4 growers are mostly sourcing conventional seed that 

5 is produced outside the rules of certified organic 

6 production, it's going to be difficult to require 

7 transparency regarding the methods behind the seed 

8 organic growers are using. A few weeks ago, OSA 

9 was proud to release the third update to our state 

10 of organic seed report. And unfortunately, our 

11 most recent data shows no meaningful improvement 

12 in organic producers using more organic seed 

13 compared to 5 years ago.

14 This data makes clear that improvement 

15 in organic seed sourcing is not happening without 

16 regulatory changes. We now have 15 years' worth 

17 of data on organic seed sourcing. And this is 

18 where we are. I'll be expanding on these findings 

19 during a presentation to the NOSB next week. But 

20 the take-home is that organic seed availability 

21 has increased tremendously since NOP was 
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1 implemented 20 years ago.

2 And it's time that policy follow suit 

3 to protect the progress that we've made and to 

4 ensure that organic farmers plant more organic 

5 seed, and that more organic food begins with this 

6 critical first input of organic seed. We hope that 

7 NOP will reconsider its rulemaking priorities by 

8 including the timely priorities of both excluded 

9 methods as well as an update to the organic seed 

10 regulation. Thank you.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

12 for your comments, Kiki. Any questions from the 

13 Board? Amy.

14 MS. BRUCH: Yes, thank you, Nate. 

15 Thank you, Kiki. Appreciate your time here today 

16 and your written comments, and then looking forward 

17 to your presentation for our upcoming board meeting 

18 next week. This is really fascinating for me, this 

19 subject in particular, and it's really important. 

20 I think you made a good point about the guidance, 

21 you know, we can't necessarily do too much if folks 
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1 are, you know, using conventional seeds that 

2 industry isn't as transparent as what we want our 

3 organic processes to be.

4 I was wondering if you have some more 

5 information on international producers and their 

6 chains of developing seed and just how, you know, 

7 our program is a very global program now, and I 

8 think there is tremendous efforts being put into 

9 this arena domestically. I was just kind of 

10 curious on an international front.

11 MS. HUBBARD: Yes, we don't collect 

12 international data. I can point you to some 

13 reports by international partners. It is fair to 

14 say that there has been more progress in trying 

15 to close some of the exemptions to use non-organic 

16 seed in other countries. And that's all I can say. 

17 At this time, we do not have data at our 

18 fingertips, but I could point you to some promising 

19 leads.

20 MS. BRUCH: Okay, sure. That'd be 

21 helpful. Thank you, Kiki.
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1 MS. HUBBARD: Thanks, Amy.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have a question 

3 from Mindee.

4 MS. JEFFERY: Thank you so much for 

5 your work on this subject, Kiki. Just to really 

6 encapsulate it for myself. The foundations of 

7 transparency and organic supply chains, as far as 

8 excluded methods really has to start with organic 

9 seed. Okay. That's -- want to make sure I got 

10 it like in there.

11 MS. HUBBARD: Yes.

12 MS. JEFFERY: Appreciate you. Do you 

13 have anything else you wanted to say on that in 

14 the sense of -- especially regarding the TBD list 

15 as we move forward?

16 MS. HUBBARD: I mean, just that there 

17 are going to remain challenges in terms with 

18 transparency, because some of these methods are 

19 hard to test for, you can't test for them. And 

20 so coming together as an organic community to 

21 create processes and policies that support more 
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1 transparency, and that may clear which methods are 

2 excluded or not, is going to go a long way in both 

3 supporting the integrity of the organic label as 

4 well as ensure that we are encouraging more organic 

5 seed usage across the country.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

7 you, Mindee. Javier has a question.

8 MR. ZAMORA: Sure. Kiki, thank you so 

9 much for talking about our seeds. And I just have 

10 a question for you. And this is just a -- something 

11 that I've seen lately, as a organic producer 

12 extends his or her operation, the limitations of 

13 sourcing organic seeds are just greater. And I'll 

14 give you a really good example. Are you -- I think 

15 I froze. Are you okay? Are you listening?

16 MS. HUBBARD: I can hear you, yes.

17 MR. ZAMORA: Okay. A couple of years 

18 ago, our Early Girl tomatoes, our seeds, I saw the 

19 package that came out of China. And this is 

20 something we organic growers in the Santa Cruz area 

21 have relied heavily on, you know, dry foreign 
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1 tomatoes and seeds that are organic. So I -- my 

2 question to you is, what -- do we know what the 

3 percentage of organic seeds are coming from other 

4 countries that are not necessarily produced in the 

5 United States?

6 MS. HUBBARD: We don't have data on 

7 where all the organic seed in the commercial 

8 marketplace is being produced. We do not have that 

9 data. I mean, the best way to get that data is 

10 to go to the industry themselves and ask for, 

11 Javier. You mentioned -- just quickly, I'll touch 

12 on your point about as you increase scale, or you're 

13 working to transition into organic.

14 Yes, there are a number of reasons why 

15 organic producers haven't been able to source more 

16 organic seed. One of them is quantity, especially 

17 as they scale up. And that's where the important 

18 role of certifiers and inspectors come in, in terms 

19 of encouraging continuous improvement 

20 year-to-year and encouraging for example, earlier 

21 communication with seed producers and seed 
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1 suppliers about which varieties are needed, not 

2 only in an organic form, but also in the quantities 

3 they need.

4 This is very much tied to the challenges 

5 that processor and buyer contracts pose as well. 

6 In our most recent data, more than 30 percent of 

7 organic farmers who responded to our national 

8 survey, more than 30 percent said that these 

9 contracts with processors and buyers are serving 

10 as a barrier to increasing organic seed usage, 

11 because too often these contracts dictate a variety 

12 be grown that's not available as organic, or 

13 they're supplying the seed directly, and it's not 

14 organic.

15 That is a huge opportunity. Right now, 

16 it's a huge challenge to increase the more organic 

17 seed usage, especially with larger scale 

18 operations. And so there's a real need for your 

19 organic community and for you as a board to come 

20 together about this gap as we see it in the 

21 regulatory space.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

2 you so much, Kiki. Next up we have Matthew Dawson, 

3 and then Adam Seitz.

4 MR. DAWSON: First of all, I just want 

5 to thank you for your service, the organic 

6 community, and the opportunity to participate 

7 today. My name is Matt Dawson. I am the 

8 aquaculture director for Upward Farms located in 

9 beautiful Brooklyn, New York. We've been 

10 operating for about 9 years and are looking forward 

11 to continue growth with our strong consumer demand 

12 that we -- as we set out to build the world's largest 

13 vertical farm, which is currently in the design 

14 phase.

15 Upward Farms is an integrated aquaponic 

16 vertical farm company growing certified organic 

17 leafy greens, but also best aquaculture practices 

18 certified fish under the highest ecological and 

19 quality standards available. We do hope to become 

20 certified organic on the aquaculture side as soon 

21 as possible, as I'm here today. And we -- while 
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1 we recognize that several priorities compete for 

2 attention, we're asking the NOSB to begin 

3 reconsideration of inputs and substances on the 

4 -- for exclusion on the national list as 

5 aquaculture practice standards, which have been 

6 previously considered, we trust will be working 

7 their way through the proposed rulemaking.

8 We believe organic food, including 

9 seafood, provides outsized benefits to consumers, 

10 local economies, and the planet alike, and drives 

11 food production towards sustainability. With the 

12 recent executive signing of the Aqua Act, and the 

13 number of land-based facilities currently in the 

14 design or construction phase, the aquaculture 

15 industry here in the U.S. is actually poised for 

16 growth at an unprecedented rate. This means that 

17 the NOSB has a real golden opportunity not only 

18 to shape, but to elevate industry standards while 

19 they're being established.

20 But just a few benefits to kind of gear 

21 yourself towards land-based restricting 
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1 aquaculture such as ours that currently provides 

2 -- they provide reduced impact to native fish 

3 populations and ecosystems, minimal need for 

4 antibiotic use, some of the highest food security, 

5 localized production, thereby reducing the food 

6 miles, greenhouse gas emissions, and related 

7 climate footprint, complete traceability of the 

8 consumer including accountability of production 

9 inputs and outputs.

10 And you all know the benefits that 

11 organic practices bring to people on the planet, 

12 you know them far better than I. You are seen as 

13 industry leaders who have the agency to lead the 

14 industry towards positive change to make positive 

15 impacts, and I'm for you to use the agency to be 

16 proactive so that regulations can support the 

17 proactive positive change we all agree we so 

18 desperately need. I want to thank you again for 

19 the opportunity to talk today and provide these 

20 comments and for your consideration. Thank you.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 
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1 for your comments and taking the time to tell --

2 speak with us today. Any questions for Matt? All 

3 right. Thank you again, Matt. Lastly, before our 

4 break, we've got Adam Seitz with QAI.

5 MR. SEITZ: Good afternoon. My name 

6 is Adam Seitz and I serve as a senior reviewer of 

7 policy specialist for Quality Assurance 

8 International, and SF International Company of a 

9 leading provider of organic certification services 

10 worldwide. Check your local grocery and you'll 

11 find the QAI mark well-represented on its shelves.

12 First, thank you, NOSB and NOP for your 

13 efforts and for the opportunity to comment. On 

14 research priorities, we were a bit surprised to 

15 see the addition of a priority focused on ancillary 

16 ingredient review. It is unclear what the 

17 intended outcome of this research priority is given 

18 there was already a unanimously supported 2016 NOSB 

19 recommendation on a review process for ancillary 

20 substances. It's a complicated topic with various 

21 perspectives, and while most of the positions on 
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1 ancillary ingredient review are justified for one 

2 reason or another, ultimately the unanimously 

3 passed 2016 recommendation establishes a workable 

4 path forward for consistency if implemented.

5 Sunset review, please see our written 

6 comments detailing the use of sunset materials by 

7 QAI certified operations. It's worth noting that 

8 every handler input up for sunset review is in use 

9 by a QAI-certified operation. Regarding ethical 

10 guide sunset review, QAI asked the NOSB discuss 

11 and potentially clarify via annotation the 

12 permitted forms of ethical guide specifically with 

13 regards to whether acid leach activated or treated 

14 forms are permitted by its national list inclusion. 

15 Please see QAI's written comments for background 

16 on this topic.

17 On sodium carbonate sunset review, we 

18 request that the NOSB examine the prevalent 

19 manufacturing processes to ensure appropriate 

20 classification and/or annotation as it appears 

21 sodium carbonate may be more appropriately listed 
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1 at 605-B with an annotation to only permit forms 

2 produced via the Turner (phonetic) process.

3 Phosphoric acid; QAI does not have a 

4 position on the current annotation change 

5 petition. However, while examining a potential 

6 annotation update, please consider correcting its 

7 current national list inclusion. The current 

8 annotation allows phosphoric acid for cleaning of 

9 food contact surfaces and equipment only. The 

10 listing of phosphoric acid as an approved cleaner 

11 at 605-B causes confusion regarding its permitted 

12 uses.

13 Cleaners are nearly always removed from 

14 food contact surfaces via water rinse prior to 

15 contact with organic product. Sanitizers, 

16 however, are rarely removed from food contact 

17 surfaces via water rinses. Doing so typically 

18 violates label use instructions and their purpose. 

19 There appears to be uniform acceptance, at least 

20 based on current interpretations of what is and 

21 what is not required to be on the national list, 
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1 that cleaners removed via validated and 

2 intervening event do not need to be listed, whereas 

3 sanitizers that are not removed do require 

4 inclusion on the national list.

5 This is of course pending further 

6 discussion on the food context substances can of 

7 worms. Depending on how the NOSB addresses the 

8 current phosphoric acid annotation change

9 petition, it may be appropriate to either remove 

10 phosphoric acid from 605-B entirely, if only 

11 intended for use as a cleaner, or to annotate as 

12 allowed for sanitizing food contact surfaces and 

13 equipment. Thank you for your time.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

15 comments. Any questions from the Board? All 

16 right, appreciate it, Adam. We're going to break 

17 for 15 minutes. Coming back at 45 after the hour. 

18 We're going to start with Bill Wolf, and then 

19 Linley Dixon, and then Tim Cada. So see you all 

20 back at 45 after the hour.

21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 
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1 went off the record at 3:29 p.m. and resumed at 

2 3:45 p.m.)

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Are you ready to 

4 go, Michelle?

5 MS. ARSENAULT: Bulls eye there. One 

6 moment, we'll get Bill's slide up.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Sounds 

8 good.

9 MS. ARSENAULT: One moment, Bill. All 

10 right.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Bill, 

12 the floor is yours.

13 MR. WOLF: Wow, okay. You guys are 

14 really on time. This is amazing.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It's the U.S. 

16 government, sir.

17 MR. WOLF: Well, I would say that every 

18 NOSB meeting, I've never seen comments actually 

19 hit the time that was on the schedule. And now 

20 I'm using up my time.

21 Okay. I am Bill Wolf with Second Star 
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1 Farm and Wolf & Associates. I've been an organic 

2 farmer, entrepreneur and consultant for 50 years, 

3 focused on increasing organic acreage to foster 

4 better stewardship worldwide. NOSB topics were 

5 simpler at the first NOSB meeting 40 years ago. 

6 Today you tackle more issues than any other FACA 

7 in the entire country. I thank each of you for 

8 the awesome volunteer work you do. And I strongly 

9 urge you to receive more staff support.

10 Slide 2, please. Organic has grown 

11 exponentially, but infrastructure has not kept up. 

12 Wolf & Associates submits a range of written 

13 comments, including ways to address this growth. 

14 We recommend prioritizing and sometimes rejecting 

15 non-essential topics. This means triage. We 

16 also and, John Foster, my associate, addressed this 

17 earlier, strongly request that commercial 

18 availability apply to Section 605. I'll get into 

19 more details on two of these. Viewing the National 

20 List as a toolbox for growth and improvement and 

21 accepting expert support for your work.
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1 Slide 3, please. The National List is 

2 a toolbox, not a soapbox to attract political and 

3 non-organic social agendas. The goal should not 

4 be to shrink the list. Famers and handlers need 

5 to complete a robust set of materials that meet 

6 the strictest evaluation criteria in the world. 

7 Annotations should only clarify, not complicate 

8 and the decisions you make to protect choices, 

9 materials that aren't widely used now, maybe useful 

10 in the future, organic farmers deserve and need 

11 a robust toolbox. When publishing proposals for 

12 comment, please make sure the information is 

13 accurate, which takes me to the next slide.

14 As an advisory board, your job is to 

15 make recommendations in difficult positions, not 

16 be experts on everything or expend valuable 

17 volunteer hours on operational processes. Three 

18 areas where expert's important, will help you do 

19 your work, verify facts, help prepare subcommittee 

20 recommendations, summarize and accurately report 

21 on the content of oral and written comments and 
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1 draft your recommendation so that they can actually 

2 be accepted, implemented and enforced.

3 Slide 5, please. Earthworms are a de 

4 facto mass found in organic agriculture. I've 

5 brought earthworms to in-person meetings and so 

6 these virtual webinars will have to suffice now. 

7 When you vote, please consider what would be good 

8 for them.

9 Slide 6, please. Applying all of these 

10 principles. We have submitted comments on 

11 numerous topics, some are listed here, please 

12 review it.

13 Slide 7. Thank you for this 

14 opportunity.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Bill. 

16 Appreciate your time and your work in the 

17 industry. Any questions from the board?

18 I have just one. Since you did note 

19 that we are on time, I better throw a wrench on 

20 that. Could you speak a little bit to, if we're 

21 saying in the next 10 years, we want to see organics 
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1 be half the food market, not just 5 percent. What 

2 are the key moves that either regulations, the 

3 market or us as the leadership and voice of the 

4 community on NOSB can be making to help catalyze 

5 that more rapid transition of farms to organic, 

6 but in a way that meaningfully supports farming 

7 families?

8 MR. WOLF: Good question, complex 

9 question and yet fairly simple. One of the biggest 

10 challenges I think the organic community faces is 

11 our divisiveness. What I mean by that is that 

12 because there's tension and messaging to the public 

13 and to the media and to government officials that 

14 there is, that we don't, we aren't unified about 

15 many things. We're easily ignored. It's easy for 

16 the Secretary of Agriculture to say no, I'm not 

17 going to do this, I'm not going to do that. Or 

18 that the USDA is going to not really treat organic 

19 as a major climate change initiative. They're 

20 going to move elsewhere.

21 So, our very divisiveness plays a huge 
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1 role. When you actually go back to what the USDA 

2 Organic Seal represented in 2002 to 2003, when it 

3 first appeared, the public considered it the most 

4 trusted label ever in the marketplace. That 

5 declined from the 90 percent tile to below 50 

6 percent. I don't know the current poll number, 

7 but it's not a trusted seal in the way it was. 

8 And that hurts all of us regardless, I mean, there 

9 are problems with certification. There are some 

10 fraud, et cetera. But the fundamentals are sound. 

11 And so a united front would make a huge difference. 

12 And with those differences and disagreements, we 

13 need to hash out and have a place to hash out, rather 

14 than being the circular firing squad.

15 The second part is acreage in U.S. with 

16 a huge amount of organic production is still crops 

17 that are imported that could be produced here. 

18 I understand and accept and appreciate bananas and 

19 coffee and all kinds of crops that can't grow here. 

20 But the ratio of grain, the ratio of acreage isn't 

21 even close to 5 percent acreage in U.S. and focusing 
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1 on encouraging that acreage, creating economic 

2 incentives. If you look at what the European Union 

3 is doing compared to what the USDA is doing, it's 

4 like night and day. We're tolerated versus 

5 accelerated.

6 So, I don't want to get you too far off 

7 your time schedule. But those would be my two 

8 biggest points of really getting to 50 percent.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I so appreciate 

10 that, yes. I think protecting what we've built, 

11 but also promoting it needs to go hand in hand. 

12 All right. Thank you so much for your comments.

13 MR. WOLF: Thank you.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We'll go on to 

15 Linley Dixon. And then we'll have to Tim Cada and 

16 Jill Smith. So, Linley, please go ahead.

17 MS. DIXON: Hi, I'm Linley Dixon, 

18 Co-Director of the Real Organic Project and owner 

19 of a certified organic vegetable farm in Southwest 

20 Colorado. I want to simply remind the NOSB and 

21 NOP that climate change is the environmental crisis 
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1 of our time. And it's not clear to consumers that 

2 organic is already a label that has so many climate 

3 benefits. I believe this is because the Nash 

4 organic program has failed to uphold the language 

5 and OFPA, specifically the requirements to 

6 maintain and improve healthy soils. There is so 

7 much greenwashing and confusion around what 

8 constitutes climate smart. We've even seen it 

9 today. Everyone's claiming it and it's only going 

10 to get worse.

11

12 I'm going rogue today to share a story 

13 that an organic pioneer shared with me in my travels 

14 through the organic project. And it's helped me 

15 to wipe away the confusion that creeps in while 

16 listening to all the lobbying from various 

17 stakeholders. This organic pioneer told me to 

18 imagine a continuum of the most sustainable 

19 organic, regenerative, whatever term you want to 

20 call it, climate smart farm on one end and then 

21 the most climate destructive farm on the other. 
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1 And imagine that every operation falls somewhere 

2 along that continuum. This farmer said that the 

3 most sustainable farm at the start of the continuum 

4 is simply a farmer with a shovel and some seeds. 

5 And then the more inputs you add, the further down 

6 that line away from perfect sustainability you're 

7 going to go. And so you get to the very opposite 

8 extreme where you have either a confinement or a 

9 hydroponic operation where all of the inputs, 

10 including the soil and all the fertility are 

11 completely sourced externally, regardless of 

12 whether or not the inputs are on the National List, 

13 they all have a story behind them. And as one 

14 former NOSB member told me, it's not a story you 

15 want to hear.

16 In short, these inputs had a climate 

17 impact to get to the farm. And to really be climate 

18 smart, you're going to have to sequester that 

19 carbon back. I'm not so naive as to think that 

20 all the farms can be that beautiful image of a 

21 farmer with a shovel and some seeds. That's why 
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1 we have a National List in our organic program. 

2 But my hope is that this image of the continuum, 

3 based on adding more and more inputs, leaving you 

4 further and further astray from that true 

5 sustainability can help you clarify your thinking 

6 and you can use it in your decision-making. You'll 

7 have to draw that arbitrary line somewhere along 

8 that continuum for what is organic to you, guided 

9 by OFPA.

10 We're all going to inevitably choose 

11 it in a different place. But remember that every 

12 input you approve in organic will inevitably 

13 disincentivize a more sustainable way. As some 

14 of our real organic farmers have said, allowing 

15 something often inadvertently mandates it because 

16 it results in a cheaper way. Please use your 

17 esteemed position as National Organic Standards 

18 Board members to publicly fight for the language 

19 in OFPA that describes what organic farming is. 

20 And we'll remind the world why organic is always 

21 the best choice, especially when it comes to 
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1 climate.

2 Thank you for volunteering your time 

3 and I hope this story can help guide you through 

4 all of the greenwashing fog.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Linley. 

6 That was lovely. Does anybody on the board have 

7 a question for Linley? Hearing none. I have a 

8 question. And similar to what I asked Bill Wolf, 

9 despite everything, we're still only 5 percent of 

10 the market. We're still only 1 percent of the 

11 land. Well, what's it going to take to get to 50 

12 percent of the market? And hopefully all of that 

13 grown domestically or everything we can 

14 climatically grow domestically, how do we get that 

15 position at the table for being the climate smart 

16 solution and making it so that we are able to 

17 leverage everything we've built to actually have 

18 a meaningful impact in the biggest challenges we're 

19 facing, as you said it in the beginning, climate 

20 change?

21 MS. DIXON: I think we need to be 
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1 louder. I think we need to have acted as farmers. 

2 I think we need to stand up for what we believe 

3 in. I think we need to describe organic as more 

4 than just something without unapproved inputs on 

5 it because it is so much more. I live in an organic 

6 farming community, lots of organic farmers and 

7 growing. And there are only a handful that are 

8 certified organic and I believe that is because 

9 we are failing to enforce OFPA and be very vocal 

10 about what organic is. I think it's becoming a 

11 more industrialized label. And so many of the next 

12 generation of farmers are not seeing themselves 

13 as organic farmers anymore and they are, and we 

14 need to bring them back by, you know, being vocal 

15 as a community about who we are. CHAIR 

16 POWELL-PALM: Is there a way to be vocal as a 

17 community without the circular firing squad?

18 MS. DIXON: I actually don't know that 

19 there is a circular firing squad. I think the 

20 organic movement are the organic farmers. And I 

21 don't think we, you know, these basic tenants, the 
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1 principles about what organic farming is are across 

2 the board. It's what the organic farmers believe 

3 in. And I think the industry has invented a 

4 circular firing squad. I don't think it really 

5 exists among the farmers.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thanks for your 

7 comment today. Appreciate it. Next up we have 

8 Tim Cada follow by Jill Smith and then Dave Chapman.

9 MR. CADA: This is Tim.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We can 

11 hear you. Go ahead.

12 MR. CADA: Good. Hey, my name is Tim 

13 Cada, I'm organic farmer from Clarkson, Nebraska. 

14 Farm has been in the same family since 1871. I 

15 got certified in '94 with our 400 acres. This year 

16 we have about 1,100 of which half is rangeland. 

17 We do not rent any ground. I have served on 

18 numerous OCI Boards, state and internationally. 

19 We are certified by OneCert today, couple of 

20 people today, I know that we're on, it's like four 

21 or five of you, it's kind of cool to see you. This 
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1 meeting kind of reminds me of old OSGI (phonetic) 

2 days.

3 Organic fertilizers changed a lot in 

4 the last 25 years. More large companies see a need 

5 for more potent nitrogen source and it kind of get 

6 frustrating. A lot of big farmers that have a 

7 little bit of organic are testing the waters. Or 

8 they just want to make easy money, bouncing in and 

9 out as it fits their schedule. Clean out a 

10 machinery, mixing grain, do they really care about 

11 anything but the money. I see it in my 

12 neighborhood. I've heard about it in Eastern 

13 Nebraska. Actually in Nebraska as a whole, just 

14 there is a comment here and a comment there where 

15 somebody is using herbicide as a burn down. And 

16 these things get reported to USDA and that's the 

17 last thing you ever hear of it. Does anything ever 

18 happen?

19 Mark Kastel talked about big company 

20 fraud. Sure, there is big company fraud. What 

21 about fraud at the local level, where local 
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1 neighbors or maybe that we know that organic have 

2 twice the corn meal that we've had and good for 

3 them, that's cool. They put it in their bin and 

4 then another neighbor says, I thought this was the 

5 organic corn, why are you holding it to a local 

6 feed yard? Questions like that, when I hear 

7 comments like that from people, it's like, what 

8 are we doing to please ourselves. Small farms can 

9 pay for the audit, the supplies audit that would 

10 just be the yearly inspection of the year. I'll 

11 substitute it in that way.

12 It would be more of a surprise 

13 inspection than a planned inspection. If I know 

14 you're coming, I know I better have my paperwork, 

15 but what about 3 weeks earlier? Maybe that's a 

16 good time to show up. I've heard of guys telling 

17 corn out of the organic vignette, I went over that. 

18 Kiki talked about organic seed. I've been told 

19 to wait longer to order my seed, that way I have 

20 to buy non-organic seed because the organics seed

21 available this year, $40 organic soybeans, buys 
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1 a lot of $40 seeds. Years ago an organic producers 

2 spread his corn with 2,4-D, nobody will ever know. 

3 Well, how do we catch those guys? I see my time 

4 is about out, guys. I do respect you guys. Keep 

5 up the good work and it's kind of cool except the 

6 May and October meeting times don't coincide with 

7 our planting and harvesting.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Thank 

9 you so much, Tim. I hope you understand how mutual 

10 the respect is. We really appreciate your insight 

11 and taking the time to speak with us today. Any 

12 questions from the board for Tim? I have one.

13 As a long time organic farmer, what 

14 would you say is, how would you describe the 

15 difference between organic farming as far as its 

16 ability to enable a resilient business, a resilient 

17 farm? And compare that, contrast that with 

18 conventional farms who are looking at shocks to 

19 their supply chain, shocks to their systems, say 

20 in the fertilizer realm. What's the fundamental 

21 difference that you see between organic farming 
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1 and conventional farming?

2 MR. CADA: This year and a few years 

3 ago when corn hit $7, I asked myself why I am organic 

4 farming? I know why I'm organic farming, but my 

5 income has been the same as my neighbors. It had

6 always kind of kicks me off. I go through more 

7 work. We looked for a little bit more money as 

8 if we're more proud of our crop. We know that it's 

9 going to Clarkson specialty grains or to free those 

10 or to Clarkson grain, you know, wherever, we know 

11 our product is ending up.

12 We bought 80 acres across the road this 

13 year. My one son says no, I'm going to farm it 

14 conventional, dad, because I can get $6 corn. Well 

15 today corn is $8.25 I believe at the local corn 

16 plant. And he says, we'll switch it to organic 

17 after that, it's easy money. Now, and then he says 

18 good thing I don't need any 11520 because I can't 

19 afford it this year. So the fertilizer costs are 

20 hitting the young guys, you know, pretty hard. 

21 And he's saying, next year we will put it into 
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1 falcon. We'll sort of -- we're going to 

2 transition.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Do you 

4 think that there's something that is missing in 

5 our industry to keep organic as a more obvious 

6 choice for long-term investments by producers?

7 MR. CADA: Do you remember 3 or 4 years 

8 ago, successful farming had to meet your new boss 

9 and it was a mother and her child on it. An acres 

10 (phonetic) conference was held in Omaha that year, 

11 since it was Omaha, I guess, I better go. And I 

12 believe Gary Zimmer was up talking. And at the 

13 end of his talk, he brought her up on that screen, 

14 says, look at your new boss and my hair just stood 

15 up because I was thinking the same thing.

16 You know, as a soybean producer, we 

17 don't have to pay check-up on soybeans. I call 

18 into Missouri to get my exemption as usual. And 

19 finally, after all of these years, I told the gal 

20 I'd like my money back because you really don't 

21 do anything for organic. And lo and behold, her 
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1 answer was, well, what do you think we're going 

2 to get all our food from? The thought process is 

3 changing with our younger people and it's kind of 

4 cool to see. My 21-year-old son wants to farm now. 

5 He says I want to keep it organic, dad, because 

6 it's the way to go. Young kids are seeing, it's 

7 working. And besides that, the Roundup doesn't 

8 taste very good.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, again, 

10 so much. Amy, I saw your hand go up. Did you have 

11 something real quick?

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Oh, sure. Thank you, 

13 Nate. Thank you, Tim. I know you're a busy guy 

14 being farming season here in Nebraska. I just 

15 wanted to ask you the question, you were talking 

16 about just kind of transparency a little bit. One 

17 of our agenda items is kind of the verification 

18 keys. Do you think it would be worthwhile for 

19 acres and products, acres and crops, if you will, 

20 to be placed on the organic certificate of each 

21 producer?
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1 MR. CADA: That's the way OneCert used 

2 to do it and then they changed it. I believe they 

3 changed it. I can't say for sure. I just don't 

4 remember. But the acres are a pretty good deal 

5 because if I have the same inspector as my neighbor, 

6 and my neighbor has 200 bushel of corn and I have 

7 a 100 bushel of corn, you better be going like 

8 what's the difference there. It's got to be, there

9 is an issue. Acres, yes. I don't have a problem 

10 with that as long as the yields are closed, you 

11 know, 140 or 160 bushel of corn is fine. But if 

12 you come up with 220 organic corn in dry land, 

13 something is wrong, if nobody else has corn as that 

14 much, you know. There's a lot of things to look 

15 at there, Amy, it is concerning.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Tim. 

18 Really appreciate your comments and your time 

19 today. And thank you, Amy, for that question.

20 We're going to go on to Jill Smith, 

21 followed by Dave Chapman and then Gwendolyn Wyard. 
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1 Jill, all yours.

2 MS. SMITH: Okay. Hi, everyone. I'm 

3 Jill Smith, Executive Director at the Western 

4 Organic Dairy Producers Alliance. Some of you 

5 know us as WODPA. And I'm also an organic producer 

6 out in Eastern Washington. So, first I'd like to 

7 thank you guys for the opportunity to provide 

8 comments on behalf of WODPA today and thank all 

9 of you board members for your service to the organic 

10 community. I'd also like to express my 

11 appreciation for you guys standing by as we work 

12 towards a final rule on origin of livestock. Your 

13 support was unwavering overall those years.

14 So, 2022 has brought some wins for 

15 organic dairies. I'd briefly like to share the 

16 enormous battle we're experiencing across the 

17 West. And that battle is to actually stay in 

18 business as an organic dairy. As I pulled 

19 producers with questions about materials for 

20 livestock and other NOSB issues, I was 

21 overwhelmingly met with greater concern about 
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1 making ends meet and what the future looks like 

2 for their dairies. I'm concerned that we're 

3 facing a new landscape. And it's a landscape that 

4 includes fewer small to mid-scale size organic 

5 dairies with a declining costs combined with 

6 buyers, droughts, flooding, you name it, and our 

7 milk prices staying stagnant for years. This 

8 looks to be possibly a disastrous time for organic 

9 dairies in the west.

10 And there's a trickle-down effect that 

11 comes along with that, that impacts our entire 

12 organic community. On the home front we face the 

13 myth that organic producers make more money because 

14 organic products sell at a premium price. Yet 

15 we've remained far from achieving a fair living 

16 wage for our dairy producers. And these producers 

17 provide year round jobs within our rural 

18 communities, buy the organic feed crops, purchase 

19 inputs locally and from our manufacturers within 

20 the broader organic community as well as by 

21 providing byproducts such as manure that's used 
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1 in crop production.

2 And I realize I'm straying from 

3 comments on other specific issues that we're 

4 addressing today. But I share this because I think 

5 it affects all of us within the organic community. 

6 In addition, we're in desperate need of data and 

7 transparency in our milk market. As producers are 

8 faced with making these tough decisions on their 

9 operations, especially given our current 

10 environment, they find little to no information 

11 to make decisions on the future of their dairy. 

12 I'd encourage USDA to consider how they can 

13 provide help in this area and show greater regional 

14 information.

15 With the questions on supply chain 

16 traceability, I do believe we should include crop 

17 reporting with those acreage for those pieces of 

18 the farm, excuse me, that are dedicated to pasture 

19 and the number of cows as this is essential to 

20 verifying pasture compliance or pasture compliance 

21 being met, pardon me.
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1 As stated in my comments, we support 

2 the relisting of the livestock materials under 

3 consideration, and I largely heard that now is not 

4 the time to limit the tools for organic dairy 

5 producers. After listening today, there are some 

6 things I wish I could comment. At this time I'll 

7 thank you for your service and the chance to provide 

8 comments on behalf of WODPA. And I'd be happy to 

9 answer any questions you have on substances or 

10 anything else that I didn't get to today and make 

11 comments and get it covered very well.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

13 comments as well as for all the work that WODPA 

14 does.

15 MS. SMITH: Thank you.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Do we have any 

17 question from the board? I have a quick one for 

18 you, Jill. When we look at this question of farm 

19 viability, and this is a question we ask ourselves 

20 across the entire nation. It's not really 

21 regional specific. What besides, I guess, outside 
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1 of NOSB, it seems like we have a lot more tools 

2 for addressing this question of farm viability. 

3 Be it co-operative marketing, supply control, 

4 other avenues we have to try to figure out how do 

5 you shore up these family instances (phonetic). 

6 Do any come top of mind for what the biggest thing 

7 the organic community should be looking at? I 

8 think as NOSB and as a community we often find 

9 ourselves very much in the weeds about materials, 

10 very specific questions on practices. But the big 

11 picture, could you kind of bring us to a higher 

12 view for what we can be doing and thinking about?

13 MS. SMITH: Well, I think one thing we 

14 have to think about when it comes to organic 

15 products is looking at the true cost of production. 

16 And being paid based on that cost of production 

17 versus just having a price dictated to us without 

18 taking that information into consideration, I 

19 think that's a huge piece to it.

20 And I think we've heavily, in the past 

21 couple of years, relied on programs which nobody 
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1 wants to do. But if these programs are going to 

2 be out there, than we also need to ensure that they 

3 have organic specific accommodations. And very 

4 few of them actually apply to the smaller 

5 producers, you know, I was part of the conversation 

6 where it was thrown out that there were so many 

7 programs or 50 some programs that apply to dairies. 

8 But when you look at that, you know, we're smaller 

9 typically than the dairies that are producing a 

10 huge amount of milk. And they don't work for us, 

11 you know, because we're not big, huge dairies with 

12 big volumes and that sort of thing.

13 So, we need help in that area too to 

14 get things that are specific to organic and organic 

15 dairy, especially as we see conventional milk 

16 prices being at record highs, you know. So, those 

17 programs don't work the same way for us. And, you 

18 know, even one of the latest programs that came 

19 out, comments were sent back that we had to look 

20 at hauling our cattle to forage, not just the 

21 freight on feed that we're bringing in, but the 
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1 expenses that we have as we move cattle to pastures 

2 and that sort of thing, whether it be Heifer's Dry 

3 Cows. But we have to look at those added expense 

4 as well. So, we need some organic consideration.

5 And I think another huge concern I have is that 

6 regenerative may take over regenerative organic. 

7 And can we be lost in that shuffle, you know, how 

8 does organic set itself apart, so it's not lost 

9 in that regenerative movement.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Really appreciate 

11 that. Yes, unified messaging. I think we're 

12 hearing that a lot. Thank you for your comments 

13 today. Appreciate your time.

14 MS. SMITH: Okay. Thanks.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we're 

16 going to have Dave Chapman, followed by Gwendolyn 

17 Wyard and Johanna Mirenda. Dave, floor is yours.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. I'm trying. 

19 There we go. Okay. Thank you very much, Nate. 

20 Hi, everybody. Dave Chapman. I'm a long-time 

21 organic farmer from Vermont. And I'm also 
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1 Co-Director of the Real Organic Project.

2 And I want to speak today about a recent 

3 NOP action on one of the hot issues that organic 

4 certification is facing. A number of certifiers 

5 have stated that they will not certify chicken 

6 porches or CAFOs, even though it is allowed by the 

7 National Organic Program. CCOF is one of those 

8 and they've been given the investing and integrity 

9 award for many years at the same time insisting 

10 that they will not certify these operations.

11 We're facing several challenges. 

12 They're defining practices of organic farming that 

13 had been abandoned by the USDA these days. And 

14 it creates tremendous turmoil in the organic 

15 movement. There are also a number of certifiers 

16 who refuse to certify hydroponic production as 

17 organic. And that's what I wanted to mention. 

18 One of the most vocal of these is OneCert. And 

19 they were recently issued a noncompliance by the 

20 NOP. It was suggested that they, if they would 

21 just say they lack the administrative capacity to 
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1 certifier hydroponics, all of it would be forgiven. 

2 But they didn't, because they didn't, it wasn't 

3 true. They just didn't believe that certifying 

4 hydroponics was legal based on their understanding 

5 of OFPA. So they were awarded a non-compliance 

6 which has been put on hold pending the outcome of 

7 the lawsuit.

8 Few things. The NOP tolerates or even 

9 celebrate certifiers who refuse to certify CAFOs, 

10 but they punish certifiers who refuse to certify 

11 hydroponics. OneCert's non-compliance was about 

12 obedience, not about bad action or behavior. It 

13 was not based on their certifying an undeserving 

14 operation. Well, other certifiers are doing the 

15 same thing. OneCert is the one being called out, 

16 which makes it look as if OneCert has been called 

17 out to serve as an example to all and instill some 

18 fear into the many certifiers who are not 

19 certifying hydroponic. The majority of certified 

20 farms in America agree with the position taken by 

21 OneCert and virtually all other countries in the 
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1 world agree with OneCert. So, this is an example 

2 of the USDA redefining organic to suit certain 

3 corporate interests.

4 The thousands of organic farms that do 

5 not believe that hydroponics should be in the 

6 organic program will not quietly stand by while 

7 those certifiers known and respected for their high 

8 levels of integrity are punished. Thank you very 

9 much.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

11 much for your comments, Dave. Do you have any 

12 questions from the Board?

13 Seeing none, I will pose a similar 

14 question to kind of the theme of the afternoon. 

15 I live in rural America as many on this call do. 

16 I cannot find any organic food in many of the 

17 grocery stores which I shop in. What do we do to 

18 make it so that we can all realize access to organic 

19 foods? I guess, actually let me phrase it a little 

20 different. With your concerns about all the 

21 different production practices, why don't we see 
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1 the market flooded with organics? Why is it still 

2 5 percent of the market, 1 percent of the land, 

3 if it's so easy to have these practices that you

4 say just be not necessarily in the spirit of OFPA?

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, it's great 

6 question, Nate. I appreciate you asking it. You 

7 know, the EU has got 36 million acres of certified 

8 organic land and the U.S. has about 6 million acres. 

9 And we have greater organic sales than they do, 

10 not by much. They're keeping up pretty closely. 

11 And the amazing thing about that is that they don't 

12 certify hydroponics and they don't certify CAFOs. 

13 So, I would say they're doing this with a much 

14 higher level of integrity, which I think is going 

15 to help their program grow faster, even though it 

16 costs more. Undoubtedly, the large CAFOs are 

17 making a cheaper product that is being called 

18 organic and so are the hydroponic producers making 

19 a cheaper product. That is part of the problem.

20 But if we look at the EU, we can see 

21 that that has not limited the growth of the organic 
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1 program. The other big thing that I think to look 

2 at in the EU is there's tremendous support from 

3 the governments for organic, real support. It 

4 goes far beyond what the USDA is doing. And 

5 they're working on training and education and 

6 research. They're not subsidizing it. Well, 

7 they're not subsidizing the terms of making the 

8 food cost cheaper, but they are, for example, 

9 subsidizing organic certification. In Denmark, 

10 it's entirely free to be certified to organic. 

11 The government carries that Bill. And I think our 

12 government should. And at the very least, I 

13 promote my dream of having any farm that grows is 

14 less than a quarter million dollars, get free 

15 certification. And I hope you all fight for that 

16 in the next Farm Bill because we should have that.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

18 call out to Farm Bill, where a lot of good work 

19 for organics should happen. And thank you for your 

20 comments today, Dave.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Nate.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

2 Gwendolyn Wyard, followed by Johanna Mirenda, and 

3 then Cynthia Smith.

4 MS. WYARD: Okay. Can you hear me 

5 okay?

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I can.

7 MS. WYARD: All right. Now, give me 

8 just a moment here and I will get started. All 

9 right. Well, good afternoon, NOSB members, NOP 

10 staff and organic stakeholders in the virtual 

11 gallery. My name is Gwendolyn Wyard and I'm Vice 

12 President of Regulatory and Technical Affairs for 

13 the Organic Trade Association. I'm commenting 

14 today on behalf of over 9,500 organic businesses 

15 across all 50 states and our missions to protect 

16 and promote organic with unified voice. My 

17 comments will address excluded methods 

18 terminology, the critical role of increasing 

19 organic seed usage and the importance of staying 

20 engaged in the rulemaking process from the 

21 beginning to the end.
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1 On excluded methods, OTA is in full 

2 support of the subcommittee's proposal and we urge 

3 NOSB to pass it as written at this meeting. In 

4 our written comments after we state our support, 

5 we go on and we talk about the importance of organic 

6 seed usage and its connection to this proposal. 

7 As Kiki Hubbard discussed earlier, organic 

8 operations are obligated to ensure non-organic 

9 seed is in fact produced without excluded methods. 

10 But this can be a challenge since its production 

11 falls outside of the organic certification and 

12 oversight system. So, the answer is more organic 

13 seed as a requirement.

14 It's OTA's long time position that our 

15 best option for success is to focus on regulate 

16 organic seed and put our energy into the 

17 development of organic seed production and organic 

18 seed breeding. Organic not only helps keep GMOs 

19 out of organic, but it is the fundamental starting 

20 point in building a thriving and resilient climate 

21 organic smart system. To this end, we want to see 
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1 USDA prioritize the 2018 NOSB recommendation that 

2 updates the organic regulations to require 

3 increased organic seed usage over time.

4 We want to thank NOP for requesting 

5 feedback from stakeholders in a federal register 

6 notice earlier this year, and for sharing how to, 

7 I'm sorry, prioritizing upcoming standards 

8 development and for sharing its current thinking 

9 on the outstanding NOSB recommendations. Because 

10 only now can we really understand that NOP is not 

11 prioritizing the recommendation on increasing 

12 organic seed usage because they believe it's 

13 already addressed by the organic regulations. 

14 This is important information to understand. 

15 Given this, we were able to bring forth important 

16 history and explain that NOSB initially 

17 recommended increased organic seed usage in 

18 guidance, but NOP explained to NOSB that their 

19 guidance exceeded the regulations and that if NOSB 

20 wanted to recommend continuous improvement, the 

21 regulations would need to be revised. Thus the 
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1 2018 recommendation, that's not being prioritized. 

2 Unfortunately, the NOSB process and key 

3 information that informed the recommendation is 

4 not carried forward or maintained.

5 So, here's the moral of the story, the 

6 called action standards development that begins 

7 with NOSB, does not and should not end with NOSB. 

8 When a recommendation is passed by a decisive 

9 vote, then we need to stay engaged, carry the NOSB 

10 record forward, and be active in each step of the 

11 rulemaking process. And we need to be provided 

12 with that opportunity. We need to insist that USDA 

13 regularly update stakeholders with the status, 

14 decision criteria and current positions on NOSB, 

15 recommendation and advance rulemaking in a 

16 transparent and fair process. Thank you.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

18 much for your work and your comments today, Gwen. 

19 Any questions from the board?

20 I appreciate how elevated the 

21 discussion of organic seeds is becoming. I think 
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1 there's a lot of opportunity for organic farmers 

2 as we talk about markets. If organic growers are 

3 being given the chance to grow organic seed, that's 

4 also something that we realize as revenue retained 

5 for the organic community. And I think that's 

6 something that's just one of the many benefits as 

7 we dive deeper into this. As always, appreciate 

8 you, Gwen, and we will keep going.

9 All right. Thank you. Next up is 

10 Johanna Mirenda, followed by Cynthia Smith and then 

11 Guigui Wan.

12 MS. MIRENDA: Hey, good afternoon. 

13 I'm Johanna Mirenda, Foreign Policy Director for 

14 the Organic Trade Association, OTA. The Board is 

15 working on 2024 Sunset Review, as background for 

16 new board members. We create electronic surveys 

17 each year to help facilitate a thorough comment 

18 and review process. (Audio interference) 

19 available to every NOP certificate holder and 

20 measure the necessity of each material under 

21 review. We ask about alternative to the material, 
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1 impact with the material or to be prohibited and 

2 the rating of the overall necessity from 1 to 5, 

3 with 5 being critical, would leave organic without 

4 it. Our comments include survey responses we 

5 received up to the comment deadline and a bunch 

6 more of comments that will continue to get the word 

7 out on these materials, collect responses 

8 throughout the spring and summer and provide 

9 updated data to you through the open docket in the 

10 fall, so stay tuned.

11 On highly soluble nitrogen fertilizer, 

12 OTA does not support the crops subcommittee's 

13 proposal. Many of the concerns that we identified 

14 in our fall 2021 comments remain unresolved. And 

15 we're concerned that the proposal overburden these 

16 farmers without meaningful benefit. The 

17 proposal, to my understanding, would only be 

18 effective to restrict 1 and any other yet to be 

19 known novel nitrogen sources that might have 

20 similar compatibility issues as ammonia extract 

21 and sodium nitrate, which we already dealt with 
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1 last fall.

2 Yes, every farm would be implicated and 

3 responsible for demonstrating compliance. This 

4 approach does not address what we see as a major 

5 underlying issue, which is to find the solution 

6 for proactively identifying incompatible natural 

7 substances and getting them in front of the board 

8 for review instead of waiting for individual 

9 petitions after commercial proliferation of those 

10 products. In fact, the proposal would circumvent 

11 the NOSB review of novel substances and give them 

12 an automatic 20 percent allowance. So we still 

13 need a proactive solution. We shared some ideas 

14 last fall and we'll be happy to continue exploring 

15 these options like improving the feedback loop 

16 between the certifiers, material reviewers and NOP 

17 when a material is flagged for a compatibility 

18 concern and bringing MROs under NOP accreditation 

19 to improve oversight of input approvals.

20 NOSB decisively passed recommendation 

21 last fall to prohibit stripped ammonia and 
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1 concentrated ammonia. And we still support those 

2 NOSB recommendations as we stated in our comments 

3 last fall. In the fifth year of transparency and 

4 accountability, we respectfully request that USDA 

5 advances those recommendations through the rule 

6 making process without delay taking the next step 

7 to a proposed rule and comment period will allow 

8 further analysis, the opportunity for the public 

9 to lay in and answer questions and provide 

10 information to USDA.

11 And as my colleague, Gwendolyn, just 

12 mentioned, USDA need to provide this opportunity 

13 to carry forward decisive NOSB recommendations in 

14 a transparent and fair process and we as 

15 stakeholders then ready to continue engaging in 

16 the process at each step.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Stunning timing, 

18 excellent work. I think we have question from 

19 Brian for you.

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Johanna. I 

21 was struck by your comment, your written comment 
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1 that the high nitrogen materials would require a 

2 whole bunch of extra paperwork and review from 

3 every farm for every crop probably, you know. But 

4 I don't understand why that would be if there's 

5 a very limited number of materials, you mentioned, 

6 I think, two, either one or two that fall under 

7 this. And what if a farmer just check a box saying 

8 no, I don't use any of these, and then it eliminates 

9 all of that works. So, I just would like to hear 

10 how you folks are thinking that this would play 

11 out because I --

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, Brian, you're 

13 on mute.

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: Did you catch the end 

15 of what I had --

16 MS. MIRENDA: I think so. Just how to 

17 respond to the documentation requirements for 

18 producers given that the proposal only addresses 

19 a narrow scope of material?

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. And, again, 

21 that it seems like, you know, the farmer can just 
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1 check a box saying, yes, I don't use these things 

2 and then move on.

3 MS. MIRENDA: If it were that simple, 

4 it could certainly minimize the documentation 

5 burden. However, given that the regulatory 

6 language is specific to the crop, to carbon to 

7 nitrogen ratio. And that data is not readily 

8 accessible to producers. There will have to be 

9 a process for every farmer to go through, an 

10 analysis of their own organic system plan and make 

11 a determination of whether or not they should have 

12 check that box or not.

13 But having readily available 

14 information to producers is the first step. And 

15 then given the narrow scope of material that this 

16 proposal would impact, you know, we want to see 

17 the recommendations from last fall to prohibit 

18 ammonia extract move forward. That would be a 

19 prohibition. So, excluded from being impacted by 

20 this 20 percent regulation.

21 Also given the sodium nitrate 
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1 recommendation from last fall, which would address 

2 the 20 percent on sodium nitrate, it's still a very 

3 limited number of materials, in fact only one is 

4 identified in the proposal as being impacted, 

5 guano. Therefore, the bang for the buck that this 

6 proposal would deliver is very minimal and still 

7 doesn't address what we want to see in terms of 

8 proactive flagging of incompatible materials and 

9 getting them in front of the board. So, we weigh 

10 the pros and cons of this proposal and still feel 

11 that there is unmet need to identify potentially 

12 incompatible non-synthetic materials and get them 

13 in front of your review. And there's no assumption 

14 that we want to make that any potential 

15 non-synthetic should get that 20 percent because 

16 we saw with ammonia extract that a full prohibition 

17 is what the board determined was appropriate.

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, good. Thanks. 

19 But if we just take it one step further, I mean, 

20 the magnitude review organizations need to 

21 basically approve any substance that we're using 
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1 as a fertilizer anyways. So, why couldn't they 

2 just be the kind of the clearinghouse of making 

3 the determination as to whether a particular 

4 substance had a C to N ratio of less than 3:1? 

5 And, again, you know, if I'm not using any of those, 

6 I just check the box and move on. It seems like 

7 with a little bit of effort, we can figure out a 

8 system that will address this, you know, burdensome 

9 paperwork issue.

10 MS. MIRENDA: Yes, I think in order for 

11 this proposal to be effective to what they buy-in 

12 from material reviewers in order to communicate 

13 the carbon to nitrogen ratio for operators to 

14 readily demonstrate compliance. Even so, we're 

15 left without a proactive way to flag potential 

16 novel, non-synthetics that have compatibility 

17 concerns to get this in front of this board for 

18 review.

19 So, say this passes, then what? How 

20 will we prevent the learning moment from last fall 

21 where the board was voting to prohibit material 
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1 impacted by the concentrated ammonia position that 

2 had been only listed for 10 years? The problem 

3 that will not be solved by the proposal.

4 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you very much.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

6 questions for Jo? I have a question, Jo, that I 

7 meant to ask Gwen as well. So, I'm going to put 

8 it all on you to answer.

9 You live and breathe organic every day. 

10 What are we missing about getting our markets to 

11 be the norm, that 50 percent or we really have 

12 everyday organic products available across the 

13 board? And organics isn't niche at all. What do 

14 we do? What are our barriers and how do we overcome 

15 them?

16 MS. MIRENDA: Man, you're not going to 

17 ask me a question about the National List.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I might get to 

19 that, but.

20 MS. MIRENDA: It looks like this and 

21 say, we need organic specific technical assistance 
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1 for every acquiring organic farmer everywhere, 

2 especially underserved communities, 

3 geographically isolated communities, we need 

4 Federal policy for crop insurance to not just 

5 incentivize organic producers and transiting 

6 producers. We need concentration programs to 

7 acknowledge and reward organic producers for 

8 practices they are employing. A lot of the answers 

9 fall outside of this board, which makes it even 

10 more of a herculean effort beyond what we have here. 

11 So, I really encourage the direction the board 

12 is going with looking at work agenda topics beyond 

13 the National List because we need big solutions 

14 beyond the organic regulations themselves to 

15 really breakthrough.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Appreciate that. 

17 Okay. Now, a little bit of National List talk. 

18 Could you give me an example of a prohibited 

19 natural that is not, say, arsenic, something that's 

20 been dealt with before that would sort of put into 

21 context where ammonia extracts would land?
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1 MS. MIRENDA: Well, I think the only 

2 update to the prohibited naturals list since it 

3 was first developed and the original National List 

4 was rotenone. I think that's been the one update. 

5 But what I have been looking to as an example for 

6 this scenario with ammonia extract is natamycin 

7 because it's not totally prohibited, but it was 

8 a non-synthetic that was started with a petition, 

9 resulted in an NOSB recommendation to prohibit. 

10 Went through the rulemaking process even though 

11 it was really messy, but that act of advancing the 

12 NOSB recommendation to the proposed rule, getting 

13 that opportunity to take broader stakeholder 

14 comment, engaging with other federal agencies as 

15 appropriate and required by OFPA and then the USDA 

16 explaining their rationale in the Federal Register 

17 in their final decision. That's what we need to 

18 make regular everyday practice for NOSB 

19 recommendations, period. That's the USDA keeping 

20 up their end of the public-private partnership. 

21 So natamycin is an example of that model of 
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1 advancing it, even if its messy, you've got to, 

2 you owe it to stakeholders and this partnership 

3 we've created to keep it moving.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

5 much for that. Yes, I think that's to honor at 

6 this time everyone's putting into this process. 

7 I think there's a lot of debate for that.

8 MS. MIRENDA: Yes, and what we do not 

9 want is NOP making decisions or pre-committing to 

10 not following through with rulemaking without that 

11 public and transparent process.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. And 

13 thank you for your comments today. Next up, we 

14 have Cynthia Smith followed by Guigui Wan and then 

15 Amber Sciligo. All right. Floor is yours, 

16 Cynthia.

17 MS. SMITH: Okay. Thank you. My name 

18 is Cynthia Smith. I'm a partner with Conn & Smith 

19 Incorporated, which is a pesticide registration 

20 consulting firm. I'm here representing Ingevity 

21 Corporation. And I'm here to speak in support of 
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1 distilled tall oil.

2 Next slide, please. FIFRA is the act 

3 that regulates pesticides. It clearly defines 

4 active ingredient and inert ingredient. The 

5 definition for inert ingredient is very simple. 

6 It's the ingredients that are not active 

7 ingredients.

8 Next slide, please. EPA issues 

9 tolerance exemptions for both active ingredients 

10 and inert ingredients. In 2004, which was the last 

11 year that EPA issued a list for the inert 

12 ingredients, distilled tall oil was on the list 

13 of three. And that was because at that time it 

14 was considered to not have a complete toxicological 

15 database. However, in 2017, EPA did issue the 

16 tolerance exemption for distilled tall oil. And 

17 that tolerance exemption one demonstrates that 

18 distilled tall oil has a complete toxicological 

19 database. And two, that it has a complete EPA 

20 safety assessment. And three, that that safety 

21 assessment shows that it does meet EPA's current 
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1 high safety standards. If EPA were updating the 

2 list at this point, then it would be on list 4B. 

3 And we do know that Canada, unlike the United 

4 States, does update its list periodically and 

5 distilled tall oil is on Canada's list 4B and it 

6 is organic in Canada.

7 Next slide, please. This slide show 

8 the contents of the register notice, having to do 

9 with distilled tall oil. The thing that's 

10 important here is that distilled tall oil is 

11 allowed for used sample of crops and animals. And 

12 in both cases, the clearance is for an inert 

13 ingredient.

14 Next slide, please. The Organic Food 

15 Production Act regulates the use of synthetic 

16 substances in organic agriculture. It 

17 establishes the criteria under which synthetic 

18 substances can be used. It does not differentiate 

19 between synthetic pesticides, active ingredients 

20 and synthetic inert ingredients. The same 

21 criteria apply to both active and inert 
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1 ingredients, the same methodology applies. 

2 There's no new science that is needed to evaluate 

3 the distilled tall oil petition.

4 Next slide, please. The petition for 

5 distilled tall oil has already been pending for 

6 20 months. That petition goes into great detail 

7 about how distilled tall oil meets all the criteria 

8 of the Organic Food Production Act. We've also 

9 submitted additional documentation to address the 

10 errors in the technical report. Right now it's 

11 delayed. Okay. Thank you.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

13 comments. Appreciate them. Any questions from 

14 the board? Wood has a question.

15 MEMBER TURNER: It's actually a 

16 question for you, Nate, or Michelle. Michelle, 

17 would these summary slides be available after this 

18 session?

19 MS. ARSENAULT: I can send them to you 

20 and they will be posted in the docket with the 

21 comments.
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1 MEMBER TURNER: Thank you.

2 MS. ARSENAULT: You're welcome.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, go ahead.

4 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, thanks, 

5 Cynthia. You mentioned in the beginning that 

6 basically materials, either an active ingredient 

7 or inert. But I thought that tall oil could be 

8 both, either an active ingredient or an inert 

9 ingredient depending on how it was used.

10 MS. SMITH: That's a false statement 

11 that came about from the original technical report 

12 and then was reported again in the second technical 

13 report. So, it's very clear, distilled tall oil 

14 is exclusively an inert ingredient. And the next 

15 speaker, Guigui Wan, will get into some of those 

16 details.

17 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay, great. Thank 

18 you.

19 MS. SMITH: And if I can speak very 

20 briefly to Nate's question, if you'll allow me, 

21 in a minute.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, sure. Which 

2 question was it?

3 MS. SMITH: About how do we grow from 

4 5 percent to 50 percent?

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please.

6 MS. SMITH: Yes, the inert ingredients 

7 make the active ingredients work better. And if 

8 you can think about your house, if the value of 

9 your house was frozen in time at 2004, you know, 

10 your house is worth well more than what it was worth 

11 in 2004. That's where we are in the development 

12 of products for use in organic agriculture. We're 

13 stuck back in 2004. If you look at the many 

14 comments submitted in support of the distilled tall 

15 oil, you will see that there is a strong need for 

16 additional inert ingredients to make your current 

17 products work better. If you have better working 

18 products, you'll have more organic growers.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Appreciate that. 

20 We have a question from Logan.

21 MEMBER PETREY: Yes. I threw my hand 
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1 up. That was interesting thing that you say, so, 

2 yes, a lot of people have discussed the concern 

3 of adding inputs to the National List because of 

4 getting away from the nature of organics and from 

5 OFPA. But I think that we do need to consider, 

6 there can be an innovative new inputs that come 

7 on and they could be better than what is currently 

8 on the list. And would you agree that we need to 

9 focus more on the OSP, which actually, you know, 

10 is in the OFPA to say that each farm or each organic 

11 producer must follow the OSP and that is overlooked 

12 by the certifier to make sure that they are 

13 following those standards? Would you agree that 

14 that actually is probably should be looked at more 

15 or just to make sure that, you know, producers are 

16 following that instead of limiting inputs that come 

17 onto the list.

18 MEMBER SMITH: Yes. Can you define 

19 OSP for me?

20 MEMBER PETREY: The Organic System 

21 Plan?
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1 MEMBER SMITH: Okay.

2 MEMBER PETREY: So, as an organic 

3 farmer, I have to list everything that, you know, 

4 that we're doing and including crop rotations and 

5 cover crops, things like that to make sure that 

6 our certifiers agrees that we are acting within 

7 OFPA.

8 MEMBER SMITH: Well, I would say that, 

9 again, there is a profound need for additional 

10 inert ingredients for formulation of products for 

11 the organic agriculture. And we've made the point 

12 in the petition that we have satisfied all of the 

13 requirements. Nonetheless, let's say the hurdle 

14 to get there is very high. So, I think it would 

15 be beneficial for the board as a whole to evaluate 

16 what can the board do to facilitate the 

17 availability of additional organic products that 

18 simply work better?

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think Wood has 

20 another question.

21 MEMBER TURNER: Nate, I just have a 
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1 comment, to be clear, and I don't want to get into 

2 a debate about this, but to be clear, the hurdle 

3 should be high for materials that are being 

4 petitioned for use. So, I just want to say, in 

5 comment to this statement you just made about the 

6 high hurdle. It should be a high hurdle and that 

7 the process is playing out the way that it's 

8 designed to play out. And so I just want to make 

9 that comment.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Appreciate that. 

11 And thank you for your comments today, Cynthia.

12 MEMBER SMITH: Thank you.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Going forward, we 

14 have Guigui Wan followed by Amber Sciligo and then 

15 Angela Schriver. Guigui, the floor is yours.

16 MS. WAN: Thank you, Nate. Can you 

17 hear me good?

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

19 MS. WAN: Okay. Thank you. Good 

20 afternoon. My name is Guigui Wan. I work for 

21 Ingevity as the Technical Product Lead. And today 
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1 I'm speaking here to support the Distilled Tall 

2 petition.

3 Next one, please. So, although if you 

4 place a bottle of soybean oil next to a DTO, I mean, 

5 both have amber and oily appearance. So, they look 

6 quite similar, but actually they're very different 

7 materials. So, historically, I mean, DTO is often 

8 mistaken to be an oil because the word oil in the 

9 name. But as a matter of fact, DTO is not an oil 

10 by the structure or the function. DTO is primarily 

11 composed by natural occurring fatty acids and rosin 

12 acids while soybean oil and other vegetable oils 

13 are triglyceride acids.

14 Next one, please. So, oils as example, 

15 soybean oil are commonly used as insecticide 

16 because of its low surface tension. So, meaning 

17 they can spread evenly and easily insect and 

18 suffocate the insects. But oppositely DTO has 

19 much higher surface tension and are very comparable 

20 to the surface tension of water. So, imagine a 

21 drop of water on leaf surface. It doesn't spread, 
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1 it balls up. It's just really above water. This 

2 is what happens if you spray a DTO on leaf surface. 

3 So, fundamentally DTO cannot function as 

4 insecticide. In addition, the recommended use 

5 rate for DTO is much lower than soybean oil or other 

6 oils used as insecticide. At such low use rate, 

7 DTO can only function as inert.

8 Next one, please. So, just like olive 

9 oil and neem oil, all the components in DTO are 

10 naturally derived. I mean, the difference is DTO 

11 comes from pine trees. DTO is not a pure 

12 substance. It is a UVCB, meaning it is created 

13 from biological materials naturally occurring in 

14 the environment. And it is already proven to be 

15 very safe to humans, environment in various 

16 applications. We repurposed DTO following the 

17 sustainable processes and only very slight 

18 modifications to ensure that it can be reused and 

19 can bring benefits to the overall health of 

20 ecology. If DTO was not used properly, it will 

21 be burned or put into landfill. DTO is already 
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1 used in conventional crop protection and it 

2 demonstrates many application benefits, stated 

3 clearly in our petition.

4 Next one, please. So, in summary, DTO 

5 is extremely valuable natural origin biological 

6 material. It is generated from material, 

7 otherwise will be incinerated or landfilled. It 

8 is very safe to human environment and bring many 

9 sustainability benefits and support the overall 

10 health of the ecological systems. And thank you 

11 so much for the attention today.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

13 much for your comments and joining us. Any 

14 questions from the board? Not seeing any, we will 

15 continue on. Thank you, again, Guigui. 

16 Appreciate your time. We have Amber Sciligo next 

17 followed by Angela Schriver and our last speaker 

18 today is going to be Leslie Touzeau.

19 MS. SCILIGO: Great. Thanks. Nate, 

20 can you hear me?

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Thank 
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1 you. Go ahead.

2 MS. SCILIGO: Okay, great. Hi, 

3 everyone. My name is Amber Sciligo. And I am the 

4 Director of Science Programs for the Organic 

5 Center. We are a nonprofit organization that 

6 communicates research on organic and we also 

7 collaborate with academic and governmental 

8 institutions to help fill gaps in a scientific 

9 knowledge. I want to first say thank you to the 

10 materials subcommittee for all its hard work and 

11 continuous consideration of organic research 

12 needs. And while we support and appreciate the 

13 large diversity of priorities that are currently 

14 presented today, I would like to ask the 

15 subcommittee to please also include the following 

16 briefly summarized research priorities.

17 First up, I have cultural and social 

18 barriers to organic adoption. We know that 

19 production challenges, yields and other economic 

20 barriers to transition are significant. And there 

21 are also lesser defined cultural and social 
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1 barriers that can prevent some farmers from using 

2 organic practices and/or pursuing organic 

3 certification, even when they have already adopted 

4 organic practices. We need more research to 

5 identify these barriers so that they can be 

6 addressed and overcome. And we recommend that 

7 priorities is specifically placed on assessing the 

8 potential societal benefits and/or drawbacks of 

9 organic certification for farmers, their 

10 communities and existing consumers and the 

11 assessment of current limiting factors to the 

12 appeal and adoption of organic certification.

13 Next is assessing impacts of 

14 inadvertent chemical contamination across the 

15 supply chain. We do applaud the NOSB for including 

16 the topic of prevention of GMO crop contamination, 

17 but the issue of contamination is not unique to 

18 genetically modified material. And we request 

19 that chemical contamination be included as well.

20 Next is the comparison of pesticides 

21 and antibiotic residues in organic and non-organic 
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1 products. We do need more research on the impacts 

2 of organic on exposure to residues and the 

3 connections between these exposures to help 

4 outcomes. And residue comparisons may be 

5 especially important for popular imported products 

6 that are grown in countries that currently use 

7 pesticides that have previously been banned in the 

8 U.S. or may have less stringent rules for pesticide 

9 application and monitoring.

10 Next is quantifying nutritional values 

11 of organic animal products such as dairy, meat and 

12 eggs. We were pleased to see the inclusion of 

13 factors impacting organic crop nutrition. 

14 However, the discussion focuses on fruit and 

15 vegetables, and we encourage the committee to 

16 include animal products as well.

17 Next is measuring impacts of organic 

18 crop production on water quality, specifically 

19 related to pesticide residues in water and how 

20 organic can keep pesticides out of waterways. And 

21 finally, we have assessing benefits and risks of 
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1 livestock integration into crop rotations. There 

2 are well-known benefits of animal crop integration 

3 and where research is needed to examine the impacts 

4 of the use of livestock for cover crop grazing, 

5 especially on ecosystem health and food safety.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

7 you. Appreciate your comments today. And 

8 appreciate all the work the Organic Center does. 

9 Do we have any questions for Amber from the board? 

10 You must have covered it all, so appreciate it.

11 MS. SCILIGO: Thank you.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

13 you for your time. Moving on, we're going to have 

14 Angela Schriver and then Leslie Touzeau as our last 

15 speaker today. So Angela, the floor is yours.

16 MS. ARSENAULT: Angela, I see you're 

17 just on the phone. If you don't have a mute button 

18 on your phone, you can type star six. Oh, there 

19 you go. I think you're unmuted now.

20 MS. SCHRIVER: Can you hear me now?

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.
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1 MS. SCHRIVER: You can hear me. Oh, 

2 thank you. All right. I'm Angela Schriver from 

3 Schriver Organics. We are members of OEFFA and 

4 OEFFA Grain Growers Chapter. On highly soluble 

5 nitrogen fertilizers, we are proponents of 

6 limiting HSN, fertilizers, carbon to nitrogen 

7 ratios to three to one with a 20 percent input 

8 limit. This limit will ensure the focus is still 

9 on soil health management and will prevent reliance 

10 on these inputs. And there's effort to maintain 

11 and improve the soil's fertility. These types of 

12 fertilizers will become unnecessary and becoming 

13 unnecessary should be the goal. And this will 

14 easily be apparent when looking at the organic 

15 management practices of a farm. We want to be sure 

16 that the NOP is not inadvertently encouraging a 

17 system that mimics a conventional ag system.

18 On the organic link system, we support 

19 the creation of an organic link system, a 

20 centralized database that would allow for real time 

21 traceability of transactions, import certificates 
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1 and transaction certificates as a tool for fraud 

2 prevention. And as we've heard, the current tools 

3 for fraud prevention are not 100 percent reliable. 

4 As a farmer that is participating in a voluntary 

5 set of standards, it is important to create a level 

6 playing field for all potential participants. 

7 Additionally, I don't foresee any extreme burdens 

8 for farmers as it's just an electronic version of 

9 information that we are currently providing on 

10 paper now. An organic link system seems to be a 

11 logical extension of the strengthening organic 

12 enforcement proposal rule, which is intended to 

13 protect the integrity in the organic supply chain, 

14 which we're still eagerly awaiting the publishing 

15 of.

16 And timing of meetings, not only do I 

17 appreciate the opportunity to voice my thoughts 

18 and concerns on organic agriculture with the NOSB, 

19 I genuinely enjoy hearing the thoughts and concerns 

20 of others in my organic community. It is the 

21 knowledge of others that leads to my deepening, 
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1 understanding and appreciation of organic 

2 agriculture as a farmer and as a consumer. I 

3 encourage rotating the timing of the meetings in 

4 order to hear from a wide variety of producers.

5 General comment. Previously I 

6 commented on my concern with Harold Austin's 

7 remarks made about supplying consumers with an 

8 organic version of conventionally produced 

9 products in order to compete with the conventional 

10 market. Today, he again used the term compete. 

11 I'm unsure of why an organic farm would feel 

12 competition with a conventional farm. I would 

13 guess it is based on consumer interpretation or 

14 expectation. Based on that presumption, I would 

15 suggest prioritizing consumer education instead 

16 of wandering down the organic standards. I would 

17 also pinpoint consumer education as the key to 

18 organic agriculture's growth. I know the more 

19 educated I am on organic agriculture, the more 

20 adamant I am on consuming and growing organics. 

21 Thank you for your time.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

2 Angela. Do we have any questions for Angela?

3 I have one. Angela, when you think 

4 about your crop rotation, you mentioned that one 

5 of the goals is to try to have more and more 

6 nutrients cycled on the farm and fewer inputs. 

7 Did I get that right?

8 MS. SCHRIVER: Correct.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. And so when 

10 you're thinking about your crop rotation, do you 

11 think about that you need to get the most valuable 

12 cash crop off every field every year or do you think 

13 of it as it's some years you're feeding the soil, 

14 some years the soil's feeding you? And so it won't 

15 always be the highest value crop off every year, 

16 but this give and take to keep the soil whole?

17 MS. SCHRIVER: That is absolutely 

18 correct. And I would add, if I were trying to 

19 obtain the largest cash crop on every field every 

20 year, that would not be sustainable in the 

21 long-term. Would it give me a bump in income for 
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1 a year? Possibly 2 years, yes, but would I be able 

2 to continue as organic agriculture long-term 

3 without considering everything else, the soil 

4 health, the fertility, having those off years where 

5 I'm just planning a cover crop to regenerate the 

6 soils, et cetera. You know, my goal is long-term.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Appreciate that. 

8 Would you mind, just anecdotally, would you tell 

9 us what your crop rotation is?

10 MS. SCHRIVER: Yes. So, we live in 

11 North Central Ohio, so we have had a lot of rain 

12 for the last couple of years. But generally 

13 speaking we've been doing corn, soybeans, 

14 sunflowers and then a year, our plan is to do a 

15 year of cover crops in that field. So, it has an 

16 entire year, and that could be a summer planting 

17 of cover crops and then terminating that and doing 

18 a winter planting of cover crops that'll make it 

19 through the winter. So, we're set up for corn the 

20 following year. That being said, whenever we can 

21 squeeze in a small grain, weather allowing, that 
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1 is also our goal. And we are always looking for 

2 more crops to add to the rotation as well because 

3 we know, that's just keeping our soil healthy, 

4 upping that fertility so that we can stay in 

5 agriculture long-term.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. I 

7 know Amy has a question for you as well.

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, I do. Thanks, 

9 Nate. Thank you, Angela. I really appreciate 

10 your time. I know as a farmer, you're extremely 

11 busy this time of year. So, your contributions 

12 today are really important. I appreciate the 

13 comments on the highly soluble nitrogen. I wanted 

14 to ask you a little bit more on, just one of our 

15 topics for the CACS committee and you briefly 

16 talked about the organic link system. I believe 

17 you said you're affiliated with OEFFA, sorry about 

18 that, but, yes, OEFFA, sorry about that. Lots of 

19 acronyms that were thrown around today, but anyway.

20 MS. SCHRIVER: I know.

21 MEMBER BRUCH: I wanted to ask you, I 
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1 know that crops are present on your certificate 

2 as well as the products that you produce. How many 

3 of your buyers are interested in having this 

4 information? Are there several that have been 

5 asking you for, you know, just verification on 

6 your, the crops that you grow and acres that you 

7 have?

8 MS. SCHRIVER: Unfortunately, no, and 

9 I emphasize the word unfortunate as in sometimes 

10 even I question why they wouldn't be more 

11 concerned. I feel that, you know, we sell our 

12 crops to typically the companies buying it. As 

13 long as they have their boxes checked, they're 

14 doing the right thing, which is just the organic 

15 certificate, the bill of lading, the clean 

16 transport certificate, they file that and they 

17 forget about it. And there have been times where 

18 I have definitely thought, you would think they 

19 would be more concerned, but I also know some of 

20 these buyers are also buying, grains been imported, 

21 and it's substantially cheaper. And they should 
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1 probably question whether or not it's legitimately 

2 organic, but again, they don't. They check their 

3 boxes, so they won't get into trouble and they move 

4 on.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One quick 

6 follow-up question to that. Angela, you are 

7 certified by OEFFA, correct?

8 MS. SCHRIVER: Correct.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. And OEFFA 

10 is one of those certifiers who does put the acres 

11 by crops on the certificate, is that correct?

12 MS. SCHRIVER: Yes.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. And do you 

14 feel like there's any concern or do you feel like 

15 that works for you in your system to have that 

16 information disclosed to anyone who gets your 

17 certificate?

18 MS. SCHRIVER: I don't feel like I'm 

19 hiding the amount of acres I grow in anything. 

20 I'm more than happy to provide it. I would be more 

21 than happy to provide my yield results as well. 
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1 None of that information do I feel like I would 

2 need to hide from my neighbor or hide from my 

3 husband or hide from the buyer of my products. 

4 I think that is information that should be readily 

5 available to whomever deems it necessary or would, 

6 you know, even be curious to check.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Really appreciate 

8 your insights there. And I just want to echo what 

9 Amy said. I know it is an inconvenient time to 

10 comment, but I so appreciate every farmer and 

11 everyone, but especially those farmers who should 

12 be in the fields, taking the time to speak with 

13 us today. So thank you.

14 MS. SCHRIVER: We definitely 

15 appreciate all of the board's time as well. So, 

16 thank you guys as well.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. All 

18 right, folks, wrapping it up. We are going to end 

19 today hearing from Leslie Touzeau and then we're 

20 going to meet again on Thursday. So, Leslie, the 

21 floor is yours.
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1 MS. TOUZEAU: Wonderful. Can you all 

2 hear me?

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

4 MS. TOUZEAU: Yes. All right. Good 

5 afternoon. My name is Leslie Touzeau and I'm the 

6 Material Review Manager for Quality Certification 

7 Services. Thank you for this opportunity to 

8 provide comments to the board and welcome to new 

9 board members. I hope we all have a chance to 

10 gather in-person in the near future. Please refer 

11 to QCS' written comments for our thoughts on prop 

12 and livestock materials on this meeting's agenda. 

13 I would like to spend my time elaborating on our 

14 comments about carbon dioxide and its addition to 

15 the National List at 205601.

16 We were pleased to see at the fall of 

17 2021 NOSB meeting that the board decided to send 

18 the carbon dioxide proposal back to subcommittee 

19 in order to vote on the two proposed uses 

20 independently. However, the current proposal 

21 does not include any additional discussion of the 
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1 potential use of supplemental CO2 as a plant 

2 amendment in greenhouses and indoor facilities. 

3 The petition is requesting the allowance of 

4 synthetic CO2 to adjust water pH by dissolving 

5 carbon dioxide and water, creating carbonic acid 

6 and allowing that irrigation water to be used on 

7 crops. We understand that acidifying water does 

8 neutralize minerals and hard water and has the 

9 secondary effect of preventing scale and build up 

10 in the irrigation lines. But the heart of the 

11 petition and the proposal document is the use of 

12 carbon dioxide to adjust water pH as a benefit to 

13 the crop by increasing nutrient availability and 

14 plant health.

15 Carbon dioxide used to adjust 

16 irrigation water pH is similar in function to the 

17 listing for sulfurous acid at 205601J11, which is 

18 used to reduce the pH of irrigation water for saline 

19 or alkaline soils. Like sulfurous acid for water 

20 pH adjustment, synthetic carbon dioxide for water 

21 pH adjustment would fit with the listing at 205601J 
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1 as a plant or soil amendment. With the listing 

2 at 205601J as a plant or soil amendment, synthetic 

3 carbon dioxide will also be allowed for use as 

4 supplemental CO2 for crops. Currently in some 

5 organic production systems, non-synthetic 

6 supplemental carbon dioxide is pumped into the air 

7 of indoor facilities and green houses to improve 

8 plant growth and fruit production.

9 As we mentioned in our written 

10 comments, QCS supports the addition of carbon 

11 dioxide to the National List for this use, as it 

12 would be an additional tool in our producers' 

13 toolbox. However, this use is different from the 

14 proposed use as a water pH adjuster. And there 

15 is no discussion in the proposal document regarding 

16 supplemental carbon dioxide used to improve 

17 photosynthesis in greenhouses. We understand 

18 that this use is not the subject of the petition, 

19 but without a specific annotation at 205601J, 

20 supplemental CO2 could be considered a plant 

21 amendment and it would be allowed.
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1 It seems that carbon dioxide could be 

2 used in three different ways if recommended for 

3 addition to 205601A and 205601J as an irrigation 

4 cleaner, a water pH adjuster and a supplemental 

5 plant amendment in indoor facilities. Only one 

6 use is discussed in the proposal and evaluated 

7 using off of criteria. QCS believes a thorough 

8 review process of the material is necessary and 

9 we recommend sending the proposal back to 

10 subcommittee to allow for adequate evaluation, 

11 discussion and stakeholder feedback through the 

12 public comment process for all potential uses of 

13 synthetic carbon dioxide.

14 Thank you.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

16 much for your comments today. Logan has a 

17 question.

18 MEMBER PETREY: Hi. Yes, just a quick 

19 comment. I appreciate the comment, the written 

20 comment and the oral comment, very clear, and we 

21 will take that into consideration, great 
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1 consideration. Thank you so much.

2 MS. TOUZEAU: Great. Thank you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla?

4 MEMBER SMITH: Hi, Leslie. I actually 

5 wanted to ask you about your comments related to 

6 highly soluble nitrogen fertilizers because I'm 

7 trying to sort of, you know, connect the dots 

8 between comments that are saying that it's going 

9 to be overly burdensome for producers and 

10 certifiers and inspectors and comments saying like 

11 just check a box. So, bear with me for just a 

12 minute, Nate. I'm sorry, but --

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead. Go 

14 ahead.

15 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. As a material 

16 specialist, Leslie, I was like, oh, this is how 

17 I think it would go. A producer puts input on their 

18 inputs list that comes to the certifier, which then 

19 we would need to evaluate first because they, 

20 especially if it's a blended fertilizer, they're 

21 not going to know the ingredients and whether or 
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1 not their fertilizer contains guano or whatever 

2 else. And then we do the work, we'll call the 

3 manufacturer, get all like the ingredients to see 

4 the end ratio, all the things. And then we would 

5 probably put a restriction on that material saying 

6 there's a C to N ratio of less than three. You 

7 need to do extra documentation or whatever.

8 So, then they would need to then provide 

9 or, you know, verify and have documentation 

10 available. That's like in the chart, which is, 

11 are in the chart, that's in the proposal. And so 

12 does that sound like the practice that you at QCS 

13 would follow thus far?

14 MS. TOUZEAU: Yes, that sounds about 

15 right. I mean, we currently and I think I've put 

16 this in our written comments, but we currently, 

17 we have like a sodium nitrate worksheet that we 

18 do have producers fill out that kind of takes into 

19 account what crop they're using, you know, either 

20 if it's a single ingredient sodium nitrate product 

21 or if it's a blended product that contains sodium 
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1 nitrate, we can determine the percentage of the 

2 product that, and how much nitrogen is being 

3 contributed. But we have them provide the 

4 information about what crop, you know, what the 

5 nitrogen needs are for that crop. And then there 

6 are some calculations that we've built into that 

7 spreadsheet.

8 And so I think that what I've tried to 

9 convey in our written comments is that this is

10 certainly possible. It just would require, you 

11 know, a significant more work on our part. And 

12 that doesn't necessarily mean that it should keep 

13 it from passing. But we just wanted to make sure 

14 that the board understands. And also, I think, 

15 you know, when it comes to looking at especially 

16 a blended fertilizer without a list saying, you 

17 know, sodium nitrate and guano are the two, you 

18 know, C to N ratio under three that we need to look 

19 out for. Without that list, it almost becomes 

20 like, do we need to evaluate every single 

21 ingredient in that fertilizer to determine what 
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1 the CN ratio is? Because we don't, you know, we 

2 don't know if it's a blood meal. You know, blood 

3 meal can sometimes be on the edge of that ratio. 

4 And so we, you know, so then we end up having to 

5 ask all of this additional information about a 

6 fertilizer that might have, you know, 10, 15 

7 ingredients and so that takes time, that takes the 

8 manufacturer time. It takes time for us to then 

9 get to complete the review and then get back to 

10 the client. So, I mean, there's just going to be 

11 additional work if that proposal is to move 

12 forward.

13 MEMBER SMITH: And then that 

14 additional work could also perhaps be moot sort 

15 of if the producer is using it at a rate where it 

16 --

17 MS. TOUZEAU: That's under 20 percent.

18 MEMBER SMITH: Right. Where it just 

19 like inherently would be under --

20 MS. TOUZEAU: Right. Like if guano is 

21 1 of 20 ingredients, it's, you know, a very small 
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1 percentage of the formulation. Then, you know, 

2 they would have to use, you know, hundreds of pounds 

3 of the fertilizer in order to reach that 20 percent 

4 nitrogen need. So, yes, I think that that's the 

5 balance that you all are kind of wrestling with.

6 MEMBER SMITH: Thank you.

7 MS. TOUZEAU: Yes.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

9 asking that, Kyla. And thank you for your answer, 

10 Leslie. Brian has a question.

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. Thanks, 

12 Leslie and thanks Kyla for leading this one. But 

13 I'm still struggling with this too, but why 

14 couldn't the material review organizations be 

15 involved in this and basically make that, I mean, 

16 so that everybody didn't have to redo it every time, 

17 make that determination for fertilizing materials?

18 MS. TOUZEAU: You mean like, make the 

19 determination of kind of what qualifies as a --

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: Well, yes, for 

21 instance if there's a blend and it's got something 
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1 in it that's, you know, below three to, you know, 

2 a 3.0 C to N ratio, flag it so that the producer 

3 knows and the certifier knows. It just seems so

4 kind of logical and easy, but maybe I'm missing 

5 something.

6 MS. TOUZEAU: So, you mean like if the 

7 blended fertilizer as a whole has a CN ratio of 

8 3 to 1 or below or individual components?

9 MEMBER CALDWELL: No, no, the 

10 individual component because that's what has to 

11 be evaluated. Right?

12 MS. TOUZEAU: Right. And so, I guess, 

13 I'm saying that, you know, according to the 

14 proposal and the information that you all provided 

15 that right now that looks like mainly sodium 

16 nitrate in guano. But there are some other 

17 materials that I think if the, you know, if the 

18 evaluation is just based on what is the C to N ratio, 

19 there are some materials that might kind of come 

20 close to 3 to 1. And so, because we don't know, 

21 I mean, we certainly know some materials are 
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1 definitely not 3 to 1, but without a kind of 

2 definitive list, so to speak, or at least some 

3 consensus amongst the material review 

4 organizations and certifiers, you know, we could 

5 be having to evaluate each ingredient and find out 

6 it's CN ratio for each ingredient because we can't 

7 assume every time that a fish fertilizer or a soy 

8 hydrolysate or a blood meal or a guano, you know, 

9 unless there's a consensus that we assume that all 

10 of those different ingredients are not 3 to 1.

11 If there's not a consensus, then we have 

12 to constantly check to determine if, you know, if 

13 that particular ingredient being used in that 

14 particular fertilizer qualifies as a 3 to 1 ratio.

15 MEMBER CALDWELL: So, well, again, 

16 sorry to belabor this, but the material review 

17 organizations already have to check these 

18 materials, right? They have to do it. So, why 

19 won't this just be part of the evaluation of the 

20 material and that information written right on 

21 their certificate?
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1 MEMBER SMITH: Nate, can I comment or 

2 should I just save this for the board discussion 

3 because I can answer Brian's question?

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. Go ahead. 

5

6 MEMBER SMITH: Not all fertilizers are 

7 reviewed by material review organizations; not all 

8 fertilizers are reviewed by AMRI or WSDA. Lots 

9 of fertilizers are submitted to certifiers, and 

10 we do that evaluation for compliance.

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: Right. And a lot of 

12 other products too, but there's a strong reason 

13 to use a material review organization. And with 

14 NOFA New York, we have to pay, I don't know, $75 

15 an hour for it, if our material needs special review 

16 and, you know, there's reason to do that to use 

17 the MRO, so let's do it. I don't know.

18 MS. TOUZEAU: And I, just a follow-up, 

19 you know, there is a kind of an incentive to use 

20 materials that are, you know, already reviewed by 

21 AMRI or WSDA. But that doesn't mean that all 
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1 producers do that. Some of them find materials 

2 that are local to them or, you know, so there's 

3 always going to be additional materials that need 

4 to be reviewed by certifiers like us. And so 

5 especially some of these more complex fertilizers 

6 that have mini-ingredients or custom blends or any 

7 of these types of materials, it's just going to 

8 require more work. For us, you know, I work for 

9 QCs, we're not a material review organization per 

10 se. We review materials for our clients.

11 And so it's just me and one other person 

12 doing this work for all of our, you know, 1,000 

13 clients. And so it's something to consider that 

14 it would take, it would kind of put a bit more of 

15 a burden on certifiers. But, again, that's, you 

16 know, that's kind of a needle to thread when 

17 thinking about, you know, the benefits of the 

18 organic integrity of this proposal versus kind of 

19 the extra work, so --

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Really appreciate 

21 that insight. We'll end today with Logan's 
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1 question.

2 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you. I'll make 

3 it quick. And so when you talk about the blood 

4 meal and the fish, we've identified on the proposal 

5 that they are less than a 3 to 1 ratio. But are 

6 you saying that there may be some products that 

7 have a CN ratio that are higher 3 to 1 and will 

8 make them subject to the 20 percent and that can 

9 vary between batches or so of product. Do you find 

10 that or do you think that that is potential?

11 MS. TOUZEAU: I haven't been looking 

12 at CN ratios for these types of ingredients. But 

13 I do think reading through some of the public 

14 comments from some of the MROs that there was, I 

15 did see some mention of like, you know, potential 

16 for like a soy hydrolysate product to possibly have 

17 a ratio that's lower than 3 to 1 or, you know, I 

18 know that blood meal and some fish products are 

19 very close to that 3 to 1 cut off. And so there, 

20 you know, it's possible that there are some 

21 instances, depending on production, manufacturing 
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1 where they may kind of inch close to that line, 

2 which is why I think, you know, having a list or 

3 at least some consensus among certifiers, whether 

4 that's the best practice of like these are the 

5 starred ingredients. These are the things we want 

6 to look for to determine, you know, these are the 

7 things that we need to definitely check out. These 

8 are the things that we need to see what that C to 

9 N ratio is. And then if it would be subject to 

10 that 20 percent restriction.

11 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you. I 

12 appreciate your time.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Leslie. 

14 I really appreciate you taking on so many 

15 questions right at the end here, and it is 

16 appreciated. So, thank you for your time and 

17 insights today.

18 Well, folks, we're going to do this 

19 again on Thursday. So, that concludes our public 

20 comments webinar for day one of the spring 2022 

21 meeting. Thank you to everyone who provided 
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1 comments today. This is what makes our community 

2 great. And we're going to reconvene Thursday, 

3 April 21st at noon Eastern. So, I hope to see 

4 everyone back here and we'll do it all again. All 

5 right. Thank you.

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

7 went off the record at 5:18 p.m.)

8

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1

2
1 

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE

NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

PUBLIC COMMENT WEBINAR

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

APRIL 21, 2022

+ + + + +

The Board met via Videoconference, at 

12:00 p.m. EDT, Nate Powell-Palm, Chair, 

presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT

NATHAN POWELL-PALM, Chair

AMY BRUCH

BRIAN CALDWELL

GERARD D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

LIZ GRAZNAK

RICK GREENWOOD

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

ALLISON JOHNSON

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

KYLA SMITH, Secretary

WOOD TURNER

JAVIER ZAMORA

 

ALSO PRESENT
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MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Commmittee

Specialist, National Organic Program

JARED CLARK, National List Manager, National

Organic Program

DAVID GLASGOW, Associate Deputy

Administrator, National Organic Program

ERIN HEALY, Division Director, Standards,

National Organic Program

ANDREA HOLM, Materials Specialist, National

Organic Program

DEVON PATTILLO, Acting Assistant Director,

Standards, National Organic Program

JENNIFER TUCKER, Deputy Administrator, National

Organic Program; Designated Federal Officer
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (12:00 p.m.)

3 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome everyone to 

4 the National Organic Standards Board, day two of 

5 the public comment webinar. If you're on the phone 

6 with us only, you won't see the slide that's on 

7 the screen, but I'm going to just run through the 

8 slide really quickly. We -- there's phone numbers 

9 on the screen, so if you are having audio issues 

10 and you want to drop off the video and just dial 

11 in on the phone, you're welcome to do that as well. 

12 There's several phone numbers to choose from. 

13 We ask that you please do stay on mute. Chat is 

14 enabled and you'll find that in the center of your 

15 Zoom task bar, wherever that is on your screen. 

16 And you're welcome to chat with each other, relay 

17 technical information or technical difficulties 

18 to NOP. But chats are not part of the public 

19 record, so you can chat with each other but the 

20 board is not going to be request -- answering 

21 questions. Sorry. And closed captioning is 

22 available in Zoom by clicking the live transcript 
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1 button or the CC button, which I can't see -- but 

2 if you -- you can control it on your end so you 

3 can see it or not see it as needed. You can also 

4 change the font size. So if you click on that 

5 button, it'll give you the option to play around 

6 with the settings. And thank you for one of my 

7 co-workers who just requested that I turn on the 

8 live captioning. Please don't use the raised hand 

9 feature, which is under the reactions button at 

10 the -- in your task bar at the bottom of the Zoom 

11 window. All commenters had to register ahead of 

12 time and will be called on in turn by their board 

13 chair.

14 You can customize your own view in Zoom 

15 by going to the upper-right corner, there's a 

16 little Hollywood squares or Brady Bunch, depending 

17 on what generation you're from. The view button, 

18 and you can change what you see on the screen. 

19 We're going to pin my camera, which will be pointed 

20 at the speaker-timer. And we'll highlight the 

21 current speaker on the screen. But you're welcome 

22 to change the view for yourself on your end. If 
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1 you're having technical problems, you can contact 

2 Zoom directly by going to support.zoom.us, in the 

3 upper-right hand corner of the screen, there's a 

4 contact us button and you can live chat if you need 

5 to. The webinar is being recorded and we're going 

6 to have a transcript, a written transcript, that 

7 will be available after the meeting concludes next 

8 week and it's usually a couple of weeks after that 

9 until we get the official transcript. And the 

10 transcription is on the call -- transcriptionist 

11 is on the call with us today.

12 For speakers, so Jared, can you move 

13 to the next -- thank you. Much faster. Speakers 

14 make sure that your name is displayed in your video 

15 tile correctly, just so we can locate you and make 

16 sure that your mic is unmuted when it comes time 

17 for you to speak. We do ask that everybody on the 

18 call please stay on mute until you're called on 

19 to comment, and then you can unmute yourself and 

20 turn on your camera if you like. It's optional. 

21 You don't have to be on camera. The mic and camera

22 icons, widgets are on the bottom left of the Zoom 
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1 taskbar. If you're on the phone only and your 

2 phone doesn't have a mute button, you can use star 

3 six to mute and unmute yourself, it toggles back 

4 and forth. We can also unmute you from our end 

5 if you're having issues and give you a second to 

6 get unmuted before you start.

7 At the beginning of your comment, 

8 please state your name and affiliation for the 

9 record. That's so the transcriptionist can 

10 capture it and then I'll start the timer when you're 

11 ready to start your comments. Each commenter has 

12 three minutes to speak and we will have the timer. 

13 I'm going to switch my camera here so you guys 

14 will see the timer. We'll start the timer and then 

15 there's a beep at the end of the three minutes. 

16 So we just ask that you please finish your 

17 sentence. And then the chair will invite NOSB 

18 members to ask questions of you at the end of your 

19 comments, so don't immediately hit your mute button 

20 as soon as you're done your comment. We -- there, 

21 may be follow-up questions. All right. I am 

22 going to turn it over to Jennifer Tucker, the deputy 
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1 administrator of the National Organic Program, so 

2 she can officially kick the meeting off. Thank 

3 you, Jenny.

4 MS. TUCKER: All right. Thank you, 

5 Michelle. And thank you for -- to everybody who 

6 is here today. My name is Jennifer Tucker, I'm 

7 the deputy administrator for the National Organic 

8 Program. So first a welcome to all our National 

9 Organic Standards upward members. We are 

10 continuing our fourth online meeting together. 

11 And we continue to be very, very pleased and happy 

12 to have such an engaged audience in this ongoing 

13 forum here. I'd like to particularly welcome 

14 again our new board members; they're four of them, 

15 Liz Graznak from Missouri, Allison Johnson from 

16 California, Dr. Dilip Nandwani from Tennessee, and 

17 Javier Zamora from California. And so they 

18 started their work on the board this spring and 

19 I would like to all of us practice our Zoom applause 

20 skills, so waiving two hands in the camera to thank 

21 them for all the work that they've already done 

22 and will continue to do here. To our public 
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1 cementers, again, I do want to thank you for 

2 engaging in this process, and I thank our audience, 

3 you are an important part of this process and we're 

4 glad that you're here to listen in.

5 This webinar continues the series of 

6 virtual webinars that are occurring over multiple 

7 days. We are in our second day this week and there 

8 will be three days next week. Meeting access 

9 information for all meeting segments is posted on 

10 the NOSB meeting page on the USDA website. 

11 Transcripts for all segments will be posted once 

12 completed. And so this meeting, like other 

13 meetings of the National Organic Standards Board 

14 will be run based on the Federal Advisory Committee 

15 Act and the board's policies and procedures manual. 

16 I'm going to act as designated federal officer 

17 for meeting segments. And Nate Powell-Palm will 

18 continue to serve as our board chair and will take 

19 the helm for this session once I'm done here.

20 So as I noticed -- noted as I started 

21 the last NOSB meeting and on Tuesday and an open 

22 transparent process mutual respect is critical. 
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1 We do ask in advance to avoid personal attacks 

2 in and disparagement. Please engaged with grace. 

3 I wanted to append that comment with just a 

4 personal observation. For folks to have given 

5 public comment in the past, you know, it can be 

6 a little intimidating, a little scary to get up 

7 for your three minutes to testify not only to the

8 board and to the program, but to all your, kind 

9 of, peers. And so that can be -- I admire people 

10 who take that stand for those three minutes, 

11 because for many it can be -- it's a lot going on. 

12 So I invite our audience that while we keep the 

13 chat button -- the chat active, there have done 

14 a few times, it's not just this meeting, but 

15 previous meetings where when somebody is speaking, 

16 people start sort of chatting in rebuttals or are 

17 not -- some frankly mean chats while somebody's 

18 giving a testimony. I'm going to ask that you 

19 monitor that. So monitor yourself here. So we 

20 do again, keep the chat open for people to be able 

21 to converse. But when somebody's testifying, 

22 please give them the space and the safety, to be 
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1 able to do that in a supportive way. So if you 

2 want to add a comment later on, or something that's 

3 important to you, do that. But just something to 

4 consider as a, sort of, a personal request in 

5 monitoring with the chats. So again, engage with 

6 grace and that's not only verbally, but with each 

7 other in the written form.

8 So I got to close by again, thanking 

9 the National Organic Program team. This is an 

10 amazing team, and I am honored to work with them 

11 every single day. This team is why I show up. 

12 This community is why I show up. That I have now 

13 been with the Organic Program for ten years. I 

14 passed my ten-year anniversary about six months 

15 ago, actually, first as associate and then as 

16 deputy. And it continues to be an honor to listen 

17 to you, to work with you, and to try to support 

18 you the best I can and to support our team the best 

19 I can. So I want to acknowledge Michelle, who I've 

20 now worked with almost ten years. Jared Clark, 

21 Devon Pattillo, Dave Glasgow, and our standards 

22 director, Erin Healy. Andrea Holm is with us and 
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1 on there are other NOP staff on the line who are 

2 listening and helping behind the scene. So I'd 

3 like to give them a round of applause as well. 

4 So thank you. I'm going to now hand the mic back 

5 to Michelle who's going to do the roll-call of NOSB 

6 members. So thank you again for being here. We 

7 appreciate your engagement.

8 MS. ARSENAULT: Jenny, my camera's 

9 facing the speaker timer, so I'm just going to be 

10 on audio. Nate Powell-Palm.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Present.

12 MS. ARSENAULT: And so let me just back 

13 up one second. We're just go do a roll. It's a 

14 way to check everybody's mic and camera and it's 

15 also for the transcriptionist just so you know. 

16 Mindee Jeffery.

17 MEMBER JEFFERY: I'm here.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Excellent. Welcome. 

19 Kyla Smith.

20 MEMBER SMITH: Hi, everybody.

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi there. Amy Bruch.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: Morning, everybody.
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning. Brian 

2 Caldwell.

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: Hello, everybody.

4 MS. ARSENAULT: Hey, Brian. I knew 

5 you were there. Jerry D'Amore.

6 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes, and hello.

7 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello again, Jerry. 

8 Carolyn Dimitri.

9 MEMBER DIMITRI: Good afternoon, 

10 everyone.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Hey, Carolyn. Liz 

12 Graznak, sorry.

13 MEMBER GRAZNAK: That's all right. 

14 Yes, I'm here. Good morning.

15 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning. 

16 Afternoon. Rick Greenwood.

17 MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, I'm here. 

18 Good morning.

19 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning. Kim 

20 Huseman.

21 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Good morning.

22 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Kim. Allison 
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1 Johnson.

2 MEMBER JOHNSON: Good rainy morning 

3 from California.

4 MS. ARSENAULT: Always good to hear, 

5 Allison, sorry. Dilip Nandwani.

6 MEMBER NANDWANI: Good morning.

7 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, 

8 afternoon, good day. Logan Petrey.

9 MEMBER PETREY: Hi, good afternoon, 

10 everybody.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Logan. Wood 

12 Turner.

13 MEMBER TURNER: Here, good morning.

14 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning. And 

15 Javier Zamora?

16 MEMBER ZAMORA: Here. Buenos dias a 

17 todos.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello, Javier. 

19 Welcome. All right. Nate, I am going to turn it 

20 over to you.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

22 Welcome to day 2, everybody. Just a reminder that 
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1 there is a policy in the policy and procedures 

2 manual about public comments. Bear with me. So 

3 all speakers who will be recognized, signed up 

4 during the registration period. Persons must give 

5 their names and affiliations for the record at the 

6 beginning of their public comments. Proxy 

7 speakers are not permitted. Individuals 

8 providing public comment shall refrain from making 

9 any personal attacks or remarks that might impugn 

10 the character of any individual. And I just wanted 

11 to give a bit of a shout out that I thought we did 

12 a pretty good job with this on day 1, so thank you, 

13 everybody. Members of the public are asked to 

14 define clearly and succinctly the issue they wish 

15 to present before the Board. This will give the 

16 NOSB members a comprehensive understanding of the 

17 speaker's concerns. I'll call on speakers in the 

18 order of the schedule and we'll announce the next 

19 person or two so they can prepare. Please remember 

20 to state your name and your affiliation, and then 

21 we'll start the timer. Board members will 

22 indicate to me if they have any questions and I'll 
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1 call on them. Only NOSB members are allowed to

2 ask questions. So to get us kicked off, our first 

3 speaker is going to be at Lynn Coody, followed by 

4 George Szczepanski and then DeEtta Bilek. So 

5 Lynn, the floor is yours.

6 MS. COODY: Okay. Nate, do you want 

7 to test the speakers so everybody can hear it?

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, yes. Let's 

9 hear that beautiful chime to know when we're done. 

10 Please, go ahead.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: One moment, Lynn. 

12 Sorry.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Lynn, 

14 for your patience.

15 MS. ARSENAULT: Let me count down just 

16 a few seconds here. Can folks hear that?

17 MS. COODY: Yes.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: All right, Nate. 

19 Okay. All yours, Nate.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

21 you, Lynn. Please go ahead.

22 MS. COODY: Okay. Thank you. Good 
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1 morning, everyone. My name is Lynn Coody and I'm 

2 presenting comments for the Organic Produce 

3 Wholesalers Coalition, seven businesses that 

4 distribute fresh organic produce across the United 

5 States and internationally. In our comments with 

6 the NOSB, we express our own ideas and provide a 

7 conduit for the voices of the many certified 

8 growers who supply our businesses. I'll address 

9 the risk mitigation table, and highly soluble 

10 nitrogen fertilizers. OPWC views impartiality 

11 provision as the basis for ensuring fairness and 

12 due process for all participants in any oversight 

13 system. We found the NOP's table focused 

14 primarily on conflict of interest issues. But 

15 since impartiality is centrally important to 

16 implementation of oversight systems, we assert 

17 that analysis must address, not just conflict of 

18 interest, but all elements of impartiality 

19 contained in the three main references for the NOP 

20 accreditation program. Topics such as risk of 

21 bias in each of the accreditation process. 

22 Considering pressures arising when an 
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1 accreditation body also functions as a standard 

2 setting body, and need for thorough analysis of 

3 risk and residual risk. Responding to the sub 

4 committees questions about elements that may be 

5 missing or need clarification, we focus on 

6 analyzing documentation of the impartiality 

7 provisions of one of the main references 

8 underpinning and NOP's accreditation system, ISO 

9 17011. Our varying comments detail significant 

10 missing elements and topics needing clarification.

11

12 HSN, after careful analysis of the 

13 proposal to regulate these fertilizers using a 

14 standard based on the C to N ratio, we concluded 

15 that the concept is too imprecise for practical 

16 application as an enforcement tool. 

17 Additionally, we found the concept burdensome in 

18 its requirement for calculating contributions of 

19 nitrogen from both materials and practices against 

20 an imprecise estimate of a crop's nitrogen needs. 

21 Here's an example of the impacts on organic 

22 produce growers. The starting point for concern 
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1 is the need for crop-specific guidelines for 

2 nitrogen requirements. This is a heavy lift for 

3 the produce sector in which small and mid-size 

4 farms are renowned for the wide variety of crops 

5 grown, each of which would require development of 

6 a region-specific guidance about its nitrogen 

7 needs. Yet, using information from the proposal, 

8 we see multiple technical difficulties in 

9 determining the basis for organic systems. First, 

10 the base rate of nitrogen need is expressed as a 

11 range not there's a definite target. Second, the 

12 nitrogen need varies with management practices 

13 such as tillage or inter-cropping. Third, prior 

14 crops increase or decrease the nitrogen need of 

15 the current crop. And fourth, cover crop greatly 

16 impact nitrogen needs yet vary in the amount of 

17 nitrogen they contribute, making their impact very 

18 difficult to quantify without analytical soil 

19 testing. Thank you for the opportunity to comment 

20 on these topics.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

22 for your comments. Brian has a question.
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1 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Lynn for 

2 your very comprehensive written comments. There 

3 was a lot in there and I really appreciate that. 

4 Would you just, kind of, spell out in simplest 

5 terms possible, just some of the key aspects of 

6 the risk mitigation, conflict of interest stance 

7 that you folks are taking. I hear a lot of big 

8 words in there and the ISO reference and all that 

9 stuff. And I'm trying to boil it down just for 

10 my small brain here. So appreciate that.

11

12 MS. COODY: Well, Brian, this topic 

13 here is not to confound anyone, even a genius. 

14 It's oversight of accreditation is a multi-layered 

15 topic and it takes a while to get your head around 

16 it, so don't feel alone. We have been concerned 

17 for a long time about the aspect of risk mitigation. 

18 And the new ISO, the ISO has fairly recently been 

19 updated to also include more of an emphasis on this. 

20 One of the new elements is this idea of having 

21 a risk mitigation table and also vetting it with

22 their stakeholders. So some of that, there are 
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1 -- we've identified multiple risks that were not 

2 included in the risk mitigation table, as I said 

3 in my -- both my written and oral comments. And 

4 there are some significant risks. One of the 

5 concerns -- we also detail this even more if you 

6 could believe this in our comments on regulatory 

7 priorities. One of the risks that we're concerned 

8 about, is the risk of inadequate oversight of the 

9 NOP accreditation system due to conflict between 

10 the peer review provisions in OEFFA and the 

11 regulations. This is a long-standing issue and 

12 I feel -- and we are -- OPWC has discussed that 

13 we feel that we need to get this fixed over -- it 

14 will require a change to OEFFA but we feel like 

15 it's very important.

16 Another issue is that there is no 

17 continuous oversight. And by that I mean, the risk 

18 that the oversight of the NOP Program has -- is 

19 based on this peer reviewed process that is 

20 inadequately matched with OEFFA. Additionally, 

21 it does not require -- it doesn't have a mechanism 

22 for enforcing timely over top, timely completion 
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1 of non-compliances. So there are a number of 

2 really serious risks, things that we view as 

3 serious risks that were not included in this table. 

4 And what I would recommend is a kind of another 

5 look at this table so that it does take into effect 

6 -- into account all of the three major underpinning 

7 of the NOP's accreditation system. That would be 

8 NOP's own regulation, it's the ISO 17011 and any 

9 other provisions from the general management of 

10 agencies from the USDA. I'm not very familiar with 

11 that part of it, but I'm sure Jenny and others would 

12 be. So like I say, it's complicated and I 

13 appreciate you reading it. I do. I very much 

14 appreciate that.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

16 question, Brian. Amy has another question for 

17 you, Lynn.

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Lynn, thank you 

19 so much for your time here today and all the time 

20 you and your organization put forth such as the 

21 written comments. They were wonderful. I really 

22 also appreciated the handling standards that you 
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1 reiterated from last meeting to this meeting, 

2 that's definitely something that put in the 

3 forefront, I appreciate you mentioning that again. 

4 My question draw more broad-based, it's in terms 

5 of innovation. So when I went through your 

6 comments, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm 

7 kind of paraphrasing here. In the section on 

8 biodegradable bio-based mulch, you mentioned that 

9 the Board's most recent recommendation for an 

10 annotation change encourages development in that 

11 industry, which I think is a great -- it fosters 

12 innovation. And then as we compare that comment 

13 to the comment made about highly soluble nitrogen, 

14 the comment seems to be a little bit different in 

15 terms of that fostering the innovation approach. 

16 You say, well, now -- or, I mean, it wasn't you, 

17 somebody in the organization wrote that, you know, 

18 it provides basically defines the limits of 

19 acceptability for that next generation of 

20 fertilizers. And those are, you know, could be 

21 actually, the tools that help some of the growers 

22 that you were saying, you know, need some 
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1 additional assistance maybe on their fertility 

2 program. So I just kind of wanted to understand 

3 the difference frame of reference between those 

4 two products and invasion.

5 MS. COODY: Well, that was a very 

6 perceptive reading of our comments, Amy, and I 

7 congratulate you on that care. I would like to 

8 compare and contrast the amount of times that the 

9 biodegradable mulch -- plastic mulch has gone 

10 through the subcommittee and the NOSB and public 

11 comment. When we are making a -- basically a 

12 really big step forward, I feel like there needs 

13 to be much more consideration -- an iterative 

14 consideration of these concepts. So with the 

15 highly soluble nitrogen concept just coming out 

16 first as a proposal. I didn't feel like that was 

17 -- it was ready to be accepted just with the way 

18 that it was framed, the way that it was based, et 

19 cetera. So although I certainly agree that we need 

20 to take a careful look at especially kind of new 

21 paradigm materials that are likely to come out in 

22 the future, and to review them against our 
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1 evaluation criteria, I did not feel that the --

2 that this particular proposal was ready to go 

3 forward. And I tried to provide as much concrete 

4 information about that, including our proposed 

5 revision of the actual motion, that would be the 

6 basis for its implementation. So at each step 

7 where I was expressing concerns, I believe I was 

8 also trying to provide a way forward for another 

9 way of considering this very important issue in 

10 organics.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Lynn. I 

12 appreciate that.

13 MS. COODY: Thanks, Amy.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

15 questions from the Board? I have just a quick more 

16 high-level question on HSN for you, Lynn.

17 MS. COODY: Okay.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: When thinking 

19 about -- I think there's a fundamental 

20 acknowledgment that these highly soluble nitrogens 

21 are powerful, powerful for growing, but also 

22 powerfully impactful for the environment, which 
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1 is often why they've been at the forefront of many 

2 of our discussions. Do you think that when we're 

3 looking at growers who want to use them, that it 

4 isn't reasonable to expect them to be taking soil 

5 samples quite often; to be figuring out what do 

6 their soils actually need, what can they hold, what 

7 is the impact of using these materials? As of now, 

8 the material list would be fairly short because 

9 it is more aimed at the future but like you said, 

10 there are a lot of tools that growers have, cover 

11 crops, animal manures, other tools would not fallen 

12 under this proposed increased oversight. So, kind 

13 of, striking that balance of making it not too 

14 burdensome on certifiers since they're going to 

15 be the ones primarily responsible for looking at 

16 these materials, but also making sure that we're 

17 keeping up with both our own expectations, the 

18 spirit of OEFFA, and the consumer expectations that 

19 our fertilizers are not impacting the environment 

20 in a negative way.

21

22 MS. COODY: So I think it's very 
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1 important to look carefully at any kind of a new 

2 way of treating organic soil. I do agree that of 

3 course, many growers took many soil samples. But 

4 the problem with the way that the actual motion 

5 is framed for me is that it is dealing with nitrogen 

6 need and it's the basis of it is not the analytical 

7 soil test that you're talking about, like that's 

8 not how you're talking about creating the basis 

9 for comparison for certifiers to verify what the 

10 growers are doing. What the proposal actually 

11 says is it's trying to get a basic, kind of a 

12 regional basis for each individual crop. And then 

13 comparing your crop against that. It's not so much 

14 what's going on on the ground that I see as

15 problematic, it's the -- it's regional basis for 

16 comparison, it's the baseline that I think will 

17 be difficult in -- for certifiers and growers to 

18 use to -- as an enforcement tool or as a tool for 

19 growers to figure out how much nitrogen they can 

20 apply, especially how much of these highly soluble 

21 nitrogens they can apply. So I'm just concerned 

22 about it being rigorous enough to actually pan out 
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1 as an enforcement tool. The way I think it would 

2 pan out in practice is that only the most egregious 

3 cases could be caught with this particular way of 

4 framing the motion or the implementation of it. 

5 In fact, most things would be -- most of the 

6 non-compliances would not hold up. And that's 

7 what I'm concerned about. If we're going to have 

8 a standard, I want it to be clear to both growers 

9 and certifiers, and the accreditation system. And 

10 also for compliance. So these are the holes that 

11 I was trying to point out and provide some 

12 suggestions for plugging.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Which we very much 

14 appreciate. Amy has one more question for you and 

15 then we'll move on.

16 MS. COODY: Okay, Amy.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: All right. Just as a 

18 follow-up to that.

19 MS. COODY: No problem.

20 MEMBER BRUCH: I was just wondering 

21 your perspective on sodium nitrate that has been 

22 around with a very similar practice standard. So 
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1 is that -- do you feel like that is clear in its 

2 understanding and regulation from a certified 

3 inspector point of view?

4 MS. COODY: You know I used to feel it 

5 was clear, until this proposal came out. Now, 

6 comparing them, you're correct in saying that 

7 they're similar, but they are not the same. The 

8 sodium nitrate wording talks about total nitrogen 

9 requirement, whereas this proposal talks about 

10 crop needs. And then uses those as the basis for 

11 the 20 percent calculation. So I now am unclear 

12 in my own thinking about whether we're talking 

13 about the amount of nitrogen that is -- let's see. 

14 How can I explain this? Whether we're talking 

15 about the nitrogen that is actually applied and 

16 20 percent of that can be a highly soluble nitrogen 

17 product or sodium nitrate, or we're talking about 

18 a comparison to this theoretical basis for nitrogen 

19 need. So from now on, I am not clear about the 

20 sodium nitrate wording anymore because I feel like 

21 we're mixing metaphors here for how we're going 

22 to apply them. And there again it, since you read 
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1 my comment carefully, I could tell I had a section 

2 in there about, I'm concerned about stacking now 

3 of sodium nitrate and using the 20 percent 

4 different requirement for sodium nitrate. And 

5 then also allowing it as a highly soluble nitrogen 

6 fertilizer. So no, I'm no longer clear about it. 

7 Sorry.

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thank you. And 

9 I appreciate your time.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Lynn, 

11 very much.

12 MS. COODY: Thank you.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we're 

14 going to have George Szczepanski, followed by 

15 DeEtta Bilek, and then Thomas Sisson.

16 MR. SZCZEPANSKI: Thank you to the NOP, 

17 NOSB, and stakeholders for giving me the 

18 opportunity to comment today. My name is George 

19 Szczepanski, and I'm speaking on behalf of the 

20 International Fresh Produce Association, which 

21 represents over 2,500 companies from every segment 

22 of the global produce supply chain, including over 
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1 500 companies directly involved in the production 

2 and sale of organic fruits and vegetables. IFPA 

3 recognizes the role that the sunset process plays 

4 in maintaining inputs and standards that align with 

5 the organic program, building a food system that 

6 enhances the ecological balance and natural 

7 systems. It should be recognized that the entire 

8 organic crops industry exists in the market place 

9 and is disadvantaged compared to conventional 

10 grown product as the result of having fewer tools 

11 in the toolbox with which to mitigate pest and 

12 disease issues that may occur. This often leads 

13 to destruction of unsellable crops, sometimes 

14 entire fields that had been destroyed by pests, 

15 ultimately wasting finite resources and 

16 necessitating increased consumer prices to 

17 maintain financial viability. Because growing 

18 seasons can be highly variable and production 

19 challenges unpredictable, the removal of items 

20 from the national list can cause further 

21 constraints to organic farmers and hinder 

22 mitigation efforts.
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1 For these reasons, IFPA encourages 

2 judicial, objective, science-based 

3 decision-making when considering sunsetting 

4 allowed materials. With regard to highly soluble 

5 nitrogen fertilizers, IFPA urges NOSB, not to 

6 further just restrict their use as limiting it 

7 would put organic produce growers at a further 

8 disadvantage, and limit their ability to be 

9 successful in production. We believe the use of 

10 these products can be accomplished while 

11 maintaining organic production. We also support 

12 the continued use of a number of materials 

13 currently under sunsetting consideration based on 

14 the utility for production and lack of suitable 

15 alternatives. We've listed those with further 

16 detail and IFPA's written comments submitted to 

17 the docket.

18 With regards to NOSB technical support 

19 initiative from February 13, 2022, IFPA believes 

20 that technical support to the NOSB should be 

21 limited to careers scientists of all agencies 

22 within the USDA, EPA, and FDA, who could receive 
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1 and vet input from scientists of public land grant 

2 universities. NOSB is granted the authority to 

3 convene technical advisory panels to consider 

4 specific issues as a part of OEFFA, but the natural 

5 limitations of a 15-person group require that these 

6 outside sources should be utilized to ensure 

7 objective science-based rationale that guides this 

8 decision making process. We urge the NOSB to 

9 approach consideration of recommendations to the 

10 NOP with specific attention to need for adequate 

11 tools for fresh produce growers, for objective 

12 scientific review with an understanding of the 

13 diversity for the many crops growing regions and 

14 production methods in the organic universe. IFPA 

15 has submitted more detailed comments to the docket. 

16 We're happy to provide additional information at 

17 any time. We appreciate your consideration of 

18 these comments in support of the fresh produce 

19 industry.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

21 for those comments. Any questions for George from 

22 the Board? All right. Thank you. Again, 
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1 George, we appreciate your time today.

2 MR. SZCZEPANSKI: Thank you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

4 DeEtta Bilek, followed by Thomas Sisson, and then 

5 Josue Castellanos.

6

7 MS. BILEK: Good morning. I'm DeEtta 

8 Bilek. I'm the staff person for Organic Farmers 

9 Agency for Relationship Marketing, so part of my 

10 comments are from the organization, another part 

11 of them are from as a certified organic farmer. 

12 We are in Central Minnesota. Our farm has been 

13 certified organic nearly 25 years. I'm also a 

14 member of the Organic Farmers Association, OFA 

15 Policy Committee and some of my comments are on 

16 a personal basis there as well, because I do not 

17 always agree with the policy with the rest who are 

18 with me. The mission of OFARM is to coordinate 

19 efforts of producer marketing groups to benefit 

20 and sustain organic producers with a strong 

21 emphasis on opportunities to educate and engage 

22 producers in the benefits of co-operative 
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1 marketing. OFARM continues to be proactive on 

2 issues which either directly or indirectly impact 

3 our number of producers. We are asking the 

4 National Organic Standards Board to continue 

5 working to keep the Organic Program strong and to 

6 advocate for the needs of organic operations. 

7 While we want to commend the NOP for finally 

8 bringing up origin of livestock rules to fruition 

9 and the diligence to work through many aspects of 

10 strengthening organic enforcement rule, it still 

11 points to the problem of time involved in moving 

12 such important rule-making forward in a more timely 

13 manner.

14 Our primary concern for the organic 

15 grain producers that OFARM represents the 

16 implementation of the SOE rule is paramount. We 

17 do want to commend NOP on the progress that has 

18 been made in dealing with many surveillance and 

19 enforcement aspects of the fraud issue. There is 

20 still more to be done regarding organic 

21 traceability. Dealing with fraud has been a top 

22 priority of OFARM and our OFA numbers. Improving 
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1 the potentials to identify fraudulent transactions 

2 is a necessary part of strengthening enforcement. 

3 As the Board and the NOP consider what new systems 

4 will be necessary to increase the traceability of 

5 organic supply chain, there must be flexibility 

6 for those producers who use paper systems due to 

7 difficulty accessing the Internet. Traceability 

8 requirements must also consider different 

9 marketing structures. On a personal basis, I 

10 personally support transaction certificates. I 

11 think in the past helped, especially for spraying 

12 farmer's crop farmers helped to avoid fraud. I 

13 personally support including acres per crop in on 

14 the organic certificate as well as making that 

15 information available in the organic integrity 

16 database. Regarding the proposed NOSB 

17 recommendation on highly soluble nitrogen or 

18 fertilizers. I as an organic certified farmer, 

19 I'm personally concerned about the ability of 

20 certifiers -- okay.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'll ask a quick 

22 question to finish that sentence.
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1 MS. BILEK: Okay. Okay. So as an 

2 organic farmer, I'm personally concerned about the 

3 ability for certifiers, inspectors, and farmers 

4 to monitor the 20 percent of crop needs. And I 

5 wanted to thank the members of NOSB for their 

6 dedication and appreciate the opportunity to 

7 comment. Thank you, Nate for that.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

9 for your comments. We really appreciate your time 

10 today. Javier has a question for you.

11 MEMBER ZAMORA: All right. Thank you. 

12 Hi, DeEtta. I love your name. I think this is 

13 the second time in America that I heard that name. 

14 So that's very unique.

15 MS. BILEK: Thanks.

16 MEMBER ZAMORA: And I appreciate your 

17 comments and it feels like you think like a farmer 

18 which makes me really happy and how you guys think 

19 of the collaboration among smaller farmers. And 

20 you said a lot and a lot of beautiful things, but 

21 there is something that I felt like I needed to 

22 ask you. You asked for the NOSB to keep 
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1 maintaining the strong -- really all the strong 

2 stand on how organic it is. Can you tell me in 

3 which -- just a little sample on how you feel that 

4 maybe the NOSB is not meeting your expectations 

5 for you and the farmers that you have these 

6 relationships, your constituents in your area?

7 MS. BILEK: I think it's more so that 

8 NOSB will make the recommendations and it takes 

9 a long time to get things into the rule. An example 

10 is the strengthening organic enforcement. I think 

11 once that is in the rule, it will solve a lot of 

12 our issues or concerns.

13 MEMBER ZAMORA: Thank You. Remember, 

14 I'm also -- I'm just learning and I want to know 

15 as much as possible and see how people think in 

16 different parts of the country and how we can 

17 definitely make this a beautiful thing that many 

18 people started many years ago. I dearly 

19 appreciate what they started because it's a 

20 beautiful thing and therefore, we have to do our 

21 best as a group to keep it as healthy and as 
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1 accessible to everyone else.

2 MS. BILEK: Thank you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Javier. 

4 I will remind everyone and I really appreciate 

5 the conversation. Please try to keep the 

6 questions a little peppy so we don't run out of 

7 time today. One question for you quick, DeEtta 

8 from me is: In your work with OFARM, it seems like 

9 there's a lot of the questions that we hear from 

10 folks highlight economic concerns in the organic 

11 producer landscape, be it dairy, grain 

12 inconsistency and enforcement leading to market 

13 surpluses. Could you speak a little bit more to 

14 what you see as the future of organic marketing 

15 and organic cooperation amongst farmers?

16 MS. BILEK: One of the things that the 

17 OFARM board members talk about is more 

18 collaborative marketing or marketing through a 

19 farmer co-operative. So I don't really know how 

20 to answer that, I'm sorry.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That's fair. No, 
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1 no, no, I just wanted to give you a chance. Again, 

2 really appreciate your comments today. I think 

3 that there's a lot more to be heard. So appreciate 

4 the work of OFARM and all you guys do. All right. 

5 We'll keep on going. So next up is going to be 

6 Thomas Sisson, followed Josue Castellanos, and 

7 then Stephen Walker. So Thomas.

8 MR. SISSON: Hello. Can you hear me?

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

10 MR. SISSON: All right. Thank you. 

11 My name is Thomas Sisson. And I'm the technical 

12 director of Ingevity to speak on behalf of 

13 distilled tall oil petition. Organic pesticide 

14 formulators have developed many excellent active 

15 ingredients but they recognize a need for inert 

16 additive to deliver the full benefits. Optimizing 

17 organic pesticide formulations means not only 

18 increasing the efficiency, but also giving 

19 formulation options on the type of products being 

20 developed. This includes the ease of use for the 

21 grower, as well as additional organic certified 
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1 pesticide options.

2 Next slide, please. Distilled tall 

3 oil is a versatile inert material with many 

4 functions. It is a bio based material derived from 

5 pine trees. There is a general lack of organic 

6 approved solvent which prevents the 

7 commercialization of many water, in soluble, 

8 natural active ingredients. Distilled tall oil 

9 is a natural adhesive or has sticky properties. 

10 We've all experienced pine tree sap we know the 

11 stickiness. This property helps hold active 

12 ingredients under the leaf surfaces, reduces 

13 runoff, and prolongs the actives life-cycle on the 

14 crops. Fungus sides and insecticides are 

15 particularly benefited. The inherent tackiness 

16 of distilled tall oil, before to choose it's an 

17 anti-leaching agent holding the active ingredient 

18 component at the surface of the soil. In granular 

19 formulations distilled tall oil can act as a time 

20 release agent by increasing the time granular 

21 products disintegrate, releasing the active 
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1 ingredients over a longer period of time.

2 Next slide, please. Approving 

3 distilled tall oil will benefit growers 

4 significantly. These include enhancing active 

5 efficiencies, more organic certified products, and 

6 ultimately to higher yields and hopefully lower 

7 overall cost. The commercial benefits of using 

8 distilled tall oil as an organic inert will 

9 ultimately reach consumers, helping to expand the 

10 organic crop market.

11 Next slide, please. U.S. growers are 

12 currently at a disadvantage in the global 

13 marketplace as distilled tall oil is allowed in 

14 organic products in the EU, Canada, and Japan. 

15 This also impacts formulators as they need to 

16 develop different products specific for the U.S. 

17 market. We believe the hurdles for acceptance is 

18 organic materials should be high. This includes 

19 inert ingredients like distilled tall oil. We 

20 also believe our petition demonstrates its safety 

21 and natural origins, and it clears this high 
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1 hurdle. The overwhelmingly positive comments 

2 support our beliefs. Distilled tall oil has been 

3 used safely for generations by formulators and 

4 growers in traditional crop protection products, 

5 allowing the use of this bio-based, versatile, 

6 environmentally safe, inert material, has multiple 

7 benefits to the organic community. Thank you and 

8 I look forward to your comments.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

10 for your presentation and your time today. Any 

11 questions from the Board? All right. I know 

12 we'll be talking quite a bit about this next week. 

13 And so we really appreciate the information you 

14 provided. All right. So next up, I don't think 

15 we're seeing Josue. If you're there, please make 

16 yourself known. Otherwise, we'll move on to 

17 Stephen Walker, followed by Caleb Goossen, and 

18 Elijah Dean. So Steven, if you are there.

19 MR. WALKER: Hello there. Hi.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Hello

21

22
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1 MR. WALKER: Good morning, afternoon, 

2 depending on where we're at. I'm Steve Walker from 

3 MOSA, an organic certification agency based in 

4 Wisconsin. I want to stress some points for our 

5 written comments on supply chain traceability, 

6 adding acreage to certificates, and standardizing 

7 bill of lading info. MOSA certifies over 2,000 

8 diverse organic operations throughout the U.S., 

9 including many quintessential, idyllic organic 

10 farms. We recognize preventing fraud and strong 

11 organic standards help these operations to survive 

12 and we also recognize the three requirements and 

13 keeping certification accessible to keeping 

14 requirements can unevenly burden organic 

15 operations or organic system plan update season. 

16 We're dealing with a number of smaller organic 

17 operations that are now choosing to drop their 

18 organic certification because of the squeeze. 

19 That's a loss chore label and I can share an example 

20 if you-all ask about it. So we support finding 

21 low-burden steps to improve traceability and fraud 
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1 deterrence, requiring acreage on certificates and 

2 consistent data points on transaction documents 

3 seem achievable. But we'd like clearly regarding 

4 how crops and acreages would be listed. And we 

5 have a few doubts about efficacy. We inferred 

6 certificate that balance practicality for 

7 certified operations with value in serving the 

8 organic marketplace. The value of acreage 

9 reporting may depend on certifiers agreeing on a 

10 reporting taxonomy. Finding that agreement may 

11 be a challenge because some case specific 

12 flexibility in certificate language can enable 

13 better organic community service in our 

14 experience. Our organic acreage data could be 

15 reportable and be mostly accurate. Variables like 

16 crop rotation changes or multi-cropping may 

17 introduce some data discrepancies. Also, 

18 traceability can't fully rely on a single point 

19 certificate and purchase information. It may be 

20 affected by the number of buyers or sellers 

21 interfacing with the inspected operation and 
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1 whether or not sales are from the same crop year, 

2 as indicated on certificates. Our written comment 

3 also noted that crop acreage might be confidential 

4 business information. But in some, we can support 

5 making crop-specific acreage publicly available, 

6 if the organic community finds that the potential 

7 benefits outweigh confidentiality concerns. And 

8 if taxonomy and accuracy expectations are not 

9 unduly burdensome. We have a lot of confidence 

10 in the certification and inspection community's 

11 ability to collaborate, to develop consistent 

12 forms, including standardized transaction 

13 documents. We also would appreciate technical 

14 assistance on record keeping expectations with 

15 examples and including use of appropriate 

16 regulatory discretion when deciding which 

17 communication tools to use to bring operations into 

18 better compliance. That's all I have. Thanks for 

19 your work. I appreciate the clock started ticking 

20 kind of late for me.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 
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1 comments. Any questions from the Board for 

2 Stephen? Mindee has a question.

3 MEMBER JEFFERY: Yes, thank you for 

4 mentioning the loss of local producers. I am 

5 interested in hearing your reasons. I see that 

6 in our area as well.

7

8 MR. WALKER: I have -- yes, thanks for 

9 asking. I kind of debated that one a little bit. 

10 I'll share one written response that we received 

11 this past week from a producer, I mean, it's an 

12 example of some that we're hearing. It's not 

13 throughout the system, but we're hearing this from 

14 some operations. This is in response to reminding 

15 them that, hey, we haven't received your organic 

16 system plan yet for your update yet on our April 

17 1 deadline. And they said that they've been in 

18 serious consideration about our organic 

19 certification status, contemplating it's place in 

20 our small farm, both from a production and 

21 marketing perspective, as well as factoring in the 
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1 effort needed when growing under extreme 

2 conditions. They had a drought last year as an 

3 example. And so we've come to the conclusion that 

4 although we've been grateful for the 

5 certification, maintaining our certified organic 

6 status is not something we find necessary, given 

7 the paperwork and process involved, moving 

8 forward. And they noted some of their 

9 considerations, including that the farm is small, 

10 producing for local seasonal distribution. 

11 They're finding that the amount of work involved 

12 in the paperwork and process requirements for a

13 multi-crop vegetable farm versus a commodity farm, 

14 don't justify the small income the farm produces. 

15 Second, the certification status is for marketing 

16 purposes only, it doesn't affect how they grow. 

17 We have always and will continue to farm with the 

18 same organic and regenerative practices. And then 

19 they mentioned drought or other extreme weather 

20 conditions that's requiring more time effort 

21 caused or medial methods, mental, physical stress 
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1 and the added burden of the current requirements 

2 for certification on a small farm, like theirs, 

3 it's one set of stresses that they felt that they 

4 could eliminate and still be able to focus their 

5 energy on producing food. And then they affirm, 

6 you know, we have to do the work that we do. They 

7 understand that we're required to administer and 

8 enforce the standards as written by the USDA and 

9 it was their hope that working together at all 

10 levels that we can improve the process and ease 

11 of implementation for all types and sizes of farms. 

12 So it's the kind of thing we're hearing. Some, 

13 yes.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy has a 

15 question.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Stephen, thank 

17 you for summarizing these important points of view 

18 and just kind of highlighting the record keeping 

19 requirement, keeping costs low, and then that 

20 maintaining integrity, it's kind of the three 

21 legged stool there. You made a comment in your 
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1 written delivery of the public comment process 

2 about MOSA being an active participant in groups 

3 that the ACA puts together. And I thought that 

4 was -- that's great so that participation and you 

5 went on to say about collaboration potentially 

6 would be needed between ACA and IOIA to generate, 

7 you know, best practices for key data that we could 

8 capture potentially, with bills of lading. I just 

9 wondered in these working groups, I think the 

10 collaboration pieces important. Is there ever an 

11 opportunity for the farmer point of you to be 

12 integrated in some of these types of workshops? 

13 So you can -- maybe there's an idea to streamline 

14 and get everybody's point of view across?

15 MR. WALKER: Yes. I think there is an 

16 opportunity typically the working groups do 

17 involve really just certify sometimes we'll reach 

18 out and include other stakeholders. I'm not aware 

19 of a case where we've actively reached out to say 

20 to get farmer representatives as a part of that 

21 working group, and I would assume there could be 
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1 openness to that. On the other hand or maybe not 

2 on the other hand, but as a part of that, I think 

3 certifiers are pretty well aware of what a lot of 

4 the farm issues are and a lot of certifiers are 

5 actively farming as well. So it's a good point 

6 and I think that the main point is to bring the 

7 right stakeholders, and perspectives to the table 

8 so that we don't implement something that we find 

9 out later on. We should have thought about that.

10 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, absolutely. 

11 Thank you. Appreciate it.

12 MR. WALKER: Yes. Thanks.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have another 

14 question from Liz and then Kim. No question, Liz? 

15 Okay. Kim, go ahead.

16 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Sorry. I couldn't 

17 get my thing to unmute. Can you hear me now?

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, we can, yes. 

19 Go ahead.

20 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. Sorry.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No worries.
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1 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. Stephen, 

2 thank you very much. Being a small farmer myself, 

3 could you, or do you know in regards to the smaller 

4 scale producers, are they primarily retail selling 

5 and no wholesale production? And because they're 

6 retail selling, there may be already demanding a 

7 pretty high price for their product that they're 

8 selling and so therefore, they don't feel that the 

9 organic certificate, organic label would allow 

10 them a higher price? And therefore, they don't 

11 feel that it's important? I'm just trying to 

12 understand more about why the smaller producer 

13 feels like it's not necessary for them.

14 MR. WALKER: Yes. I think that it's 

15 a fair characterization but I'd be cautious about 

16 stereotyping and saying, all small producers feel 

17 this way. And I don't know how well I can represent 

18 that per se, but I think a lot of times it is a 

19 choice of what their markets need. And if their 

20 distribution chain is direct to consumer then maybe 

21 they're deciding that they can communicate the 
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1 attributes of their operation without having the 

2 organic certification. However, is it what we 

3 want for folks to be able to say, Looks it's 

4 organic, and organic means, look at this whole set 

5 of standards over here and again, I've appreciated 

6 some of our Nate's questions in the last couple 

7 of days about what can we to do to make organic 

8 become more than, you know, five percent of the 

9 market, to get it up to, you know mostly it's 

10 organic vision anyway of a thriving organic world. 

11 And I think there's a lot to be said for education, 

12 better promotion of what organic's stacked 

13 benefits are. Talking about what we do well, at 

14 these meetings.

15

16 So often we're debating the things 

17 that, you know, we haven't figured out yet and I 

18 think it can be characterized, maybe it's, well, 

19 those organic people aren't agreeing on anything. 

20 But we are, you know, we agree on the basic 

21 principles and I think that if we can unify around 
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1 and health ecology in fairness care, soil health 

2 and the things that we agree on. And really put 

3 that message forward, that it would be a way of 

4 you know, moving the whole program, the whole 

5 community forward. And also, if it's a cost issue, 

6 cost in time, cost in dollars, and now as so many 

7 of us are working at home and we're able to seek 

8 staff support from all around the country. We're 

9 finding that although we're in the Midwest were 

10 kind of competing with some of those capacity 

11 changing resources on a national level. And that 

12 translates to what does our clientele look like 

13 versus what another certifier's clientele looks 

14 like? How many dollars are we bringing in? What 

15 can we afford to pay versus certifiers in other 

16 locations? So some sort of equity and cost support 

17 for the necessary business of certification would 

18 be helpful and also just seizing that organic is 

19 still a gold standard. And as we see other labels 

20 trying to come in and patch in places where we're 

21 not as strong as we can be, some of those can be 
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1 seized as well. Organic is regenerative, organic 

2 is climate-smart agriculture. Those sorts of 

3 things. So --

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I so appreciate 

5 everything you're saying, right now, Stephen. In 

6 the name of time, I'm going to have --

7 MR. WALKER: Yes.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim, asked her 

9 question. But -- I am not cutting you off. That 

10 is exactly what I hope the group of our community 

11 starts engaging as a talking point. Kim, please 

12 go ahead.

13 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi Stephen, I really 

14 appreciate the way that you've helped bring a light 

15 to a lot of the -- a lot of these topics that we 

16 struggle in how to manage through. My question 

17 for you is: In a lot of the comments that I'm hearing 

18 and reading the three words as we try for better 

19 SOE practices is traceability, transparency, and 

20 confidentiality. From your perspective, what is 

21 the line in the sand between traceability and 
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1 transparency and encroaching on confidentiality?

2 MR. WALKER: I think -- I don't know 

3 if there's a concrete line. I think it's another 

4 question of balance. And I know when you're 

5 writing regulations, you want to have it, you know, 

6 concrete so, you know, people can say am I meeting 

7 the standard or am I not. But it -- some people 

8 like words in the standards like significant which 

9 is open to interpretation. I tend to like those 

10 kinds of words and then be able to apply those to 

11 the aspects of the operation. And what this 

12 operation need to come into compliance versus 

13 another operation. So yes, it's tricky to draw 

14 -- we're in the business of drawing lines. 

15 Sometimes a line can be drawn and then examples 

16 can be given that help to show better where that 

17 line is, you know. Here's examples of things that 

18 are clearly not compliant. Here's examples of 

19 things that clearly are. And sometimes we don't 

20 get examples of things that are on a line that might 

21 be a little bit fuzzy, but we're all really good 
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1 at critically thinking.

2 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Stephen.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

4 Stephen. I apologize. I really have to keep on 

5 moving, but thank you so much for your insights 

6 today.

7 MR. WALKER: Thank you.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I appreciate it.

9 MR. WALKER: Bye, bye.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

11 Caleb Goossen, followed by Elijah Dean, and then 

12 Jeff Dean. Caleb, the floor is yours.

13 MR. GOOSSEN: Hello. My name is Caleb 

14 Goossen. I'm the crop specialist for MOFGA, the 

15 Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association, 

16 one of the country's oldest organic associations. 

17 I believe the most important topic for me to 

18 comment on right now is regarding the restriction 

19 of nitrogen fertilizers with a carbon to nitrogen 

20 ratio of three to one or less. I think that --

21 I thank the crops of the committee for their work 
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1 on this topic and fully support the proposal. 

2 Highly available sources of nitrogen with carbon 

3 to nitrogen ratios of three to one or less should 

4 be greatly limited to ensure that organic fertility 

5 management remains true to the foundational 

6 principle of feeding and building soil. Carbon 

7 to nitrogen ratios are the best method that I am 

8 aware of, to measure a natural fertility materials 

9 remineralization, and properties as a food source 

10 to soil life and subsequently their plant 

11 availability. The current proposal would do an 

12 excellent job of providing much needed guardrails 

13 while still allowing organic growers great 

14 flexibility in different growing conditions. 

15 With very low added burden for most farmers and 

16 certifiers.

17

18 The direct relationship between carbon 

19 to nitrogen ratio and release rate of plant 

20 available nitrogen has been known for at least 80 

21 years. There's a study on the topic from the New 
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1 Jersey Ag Experiment Station that was published 

2 in Soil Science in 1942. The proposed three to 

3 one carbon to nitrogen ratio is a generous dividing 

4 line for distinguishing rapidly available nitrogen 

5 fertility amendments that allows great producer 

6 flexibility in meeting acute crop needs with common 

7 traditionally used organic fertility sources while 

8 still setting a minimum floor to ensure that at 

9 least 80 percent of the nitrogen is also supplying 

10 at least some carbon to feed the soil. Bruce 

11 Hoskins who is at the University of Maine suggests 

12 that a ten to one carbon to nitrogen ratio is the 

13 threshold for rapid nitrogen availability from 

14 fertility amendments. And that's based off of 

15 many other studies. Bruce's own studies, Heather 

16 Darby's studies at UVM, it's pretty well 

17 established. So anything that's below that and 

18 still about three to one, you're still allowing 

19 farmers to get that rapid nitrogen release. And 

20 then there's that additional 20 percent of nitrogen 

21 that could be coming from even more readily 
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1 available sources of fertility. So with that I 

2 yield my time and happy to answer any questions 

3 about this or other topics.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

5 for your comments today. Any questions from the 

6 Board? Amy has a question.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Caleb, thank you for 

8 your time today. Thanks for your perspective. 

9 You touched on this briefly in your comments just 

10 a little bit ago but I just wanted for you to quickly 

11 compare and contrast the CDN ratio with the -- just 

12 looking at nitrogen solubility.

13 MR. GOOSSEN: Sure. I mean, one trick 

14 is that solubility is sort of a tricky concept. 

15 If we're talking about actual compounds and how 

16 quickly they dissolve versus whether the substance 

17 is miscible and is able to be put into a solution, 

18 of which many of some of our newer fertilizers out 

19 there are easily put into a -- easily, at least 

20 in solution, maybe not dissolved in solution, and 

21 can be applied liquid. And, you know, if we think 
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1 about some of our common fertility sources from 

2 forever, manure, there's usually ammonium nitrate 

3 that comes out readily as a soluble nitrogen 

4 source. That's why I actually prefer to use plant 

5 availability or highly available nitrogen as a term 

6 or less available. Bruce Hoskins who I mentioned 

7 just uses rapid release, gradual release, very slow 

8 release, or tie up of nitrogen based on that carbon 

9 to nitrogen ratio. And it really just kind of gets 

10 back to the fact that microbes in the soil possess 

11 a very specific carbon to nitrogen ratio within 

12 their own bodies essentially. And when you supply 

13 them with excess carbon, they tend to lock up 

14 nitrogen, when you supply them with excess 

15 nitrogen, they will blow through whatever carbon 

16 is available to them in really loose terms.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Caleb.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

19 comments, Caleb. Appreciate your time today. 

20 All right. Next up, we've have Elijah Dean, 

21 followed by Jeff Dean, and then Joel Kurtz.
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1 MR. ELIJAH DEAN: Okay. Can you hear 

2 me?

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can.

4 MR. ELIJAH DEAN: Excellent. All 

5 right. Hi, everyone. This is Elijah Dean. I am 

6 a full-time farmer in North Central Ohio, and I 

7 have two topics I'd like to talk to you about today. 

8 Just like the previous commenter, my first one 

9 is about the highly soluble nitrogen fertilizers. 

10 We've -- I fully support the extension of the 

11 existing rules regarding Chilean nitrate and using 

12 that as only 20 percent of the crops nitrogen needs. 

13 And it seems like a logical extension to expand 

14 that to all other similar nitrogen sources. And 

15 I really appreciate the effort to establish general 

16 guidelines with the three to one ratio. I really 

17 like how that allows for flexibility in farmers' 

18 operations. And it also allows for flexibility 

19 in the development of new products coming to the 

20 market. I think it's a really smart way to provide 

21 for the needs of multiple groups within the organic 
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1 space. And as a farmer, I know that having that 

2 flexibility can be very important on certain years, 

3 depending on how crops are -- have performed 

4 through the winter. For example, our wheat right 

5 now, it could use a bit of extra nitrogen and having 

6 the ability to use Chilean nitrate for just that 

7 little extra boost is extremely beneficial.

8 Secondly, I would like to talk about 

9 the timing and format of meetings. This is 

10 probably a topic that you all are tired of hearing 

11 from me about. I think this is the fourth year 

12 maybe that I've been mentioning it. But having 

13 these meetings in the spring and in the fall is 

14 extremely disadvantageous to the farmers of the 

15 country. And it has been beneficial to have all 

16 of these Zoom meetings over the past couple of years 

17 because it puts us more on an equal playing field. 

18 It's much easier to take a couple of hours than 

19 it is to take a couple of days this time of year 

20 but still going forward I think it would be very 

21 advantageous to have the meetings at a time when 
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1 more of the country's farmers are able to attend. 

2 And there are many different ways we could go about 

3 that. Perhaps just shifting the meetings two 

4 weeks every time and gradually progressing through 

5 the year. Or maybe eventually progress them to 

6 a time such as the winter when the majority of the 

7 country's farmers are available and able to 

8 participate. I think it would be advantageous for 

9 the Board and advantageous for the organic movement 

10 as a whole. Thank you.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

12 comments. We really appreciate your work and the 

13 OEFFA Grain Growers Chapter is always very helpful 

14 with bringing farmers' voices to this 

15 conversation. Amy has a question.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: Elijah, thank you for 

17 your time today from here to the operation. The 

18 last comment you mentioned, I believe you 

19 referenced him that it shouldn't be a burden, but 

20 it's calculations if you wanted to use a highly 

21 stable nitrogen product and you mentioned that the 
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1 guidelines were clear in the proposal, and that 

2 you potentially would be choosing to use one of 

3 these types of products. Do you find the 

4 calculations to be straightforward enough, that 

5 you feel comfortable with what's being proposed?

6 MR. ELIJAH DEAN: Definitely, yes. 

7 The discussion document lays out a couple of, for 

8 me easy to follow examples of how this would be 

9 implemented. Both for an individual source of 

10 nitrogen under this requirement and also for 

11 multiple. I think it's laid out very clearly, and 

12 I would have no problem at all implementing that 

13 in a way that follows the rules.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you. I 

15 appreciate that.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan.

17 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you, Elijah. 

18 I'm curious, you said this winter, you're going 

19 to need a little bit of sodium nitrate to help you 

20 out. Just curious to what kind of winter 

21 conditions you may have had or spring conditions 
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1 that where you're requiring the use?

2 MR. ELIJAH DEAN: It's still something 

3 that we are considering. We managed to get our 

4 wheat planted early and we had a mild winter that 

5 it survived and is looking really good. With that 

6 stand, we are probably going to be limited on 

7 nitrogen for the yield potential of that crop. 

8 I am not sure yet whether we're actually going to 

9 go ahead and use Chilean nitrate to provide that 

10 a little boost to it or not. But the option is 

11 there and I really appreciate having that 

12 flexibility.

13 MEMBER PETREY: Yes. And I'm speaking 

14 from a farm in the southeast where we use Chilean 

15 nitrate a lot of range but I was just curious that 

16 what may have faced that came -- that would have 

17 me put that out. Also, just to comment on the, 

18 you know, the meetings, we'll definitely talk about 

19 it. It has come up a lot. You know, the time of 

20 that also, you know, something that we're going 

21 to have to consider is the on boarding if you know, 
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1 new board members and then the exit of other board 

2 members. But we definitely want to look in to what 

3 we can do. So thank you.

4 MR. ELIJAH DEAN: If I could add one 

5 more thing about the wheat yields. In our area, 

6 depending on when the wheat is planted and how the 

7 winter goes, it would be unwise for us to fertilize 

8 for an absolute top crop every year. Because if 

9 the wheat doesn't do well, we would be really over 

10 fertilizing and adding a lot more nitrogen out 

11 there in the fall with manures, than the wheat will 

12 actually take up. So if we fertilize for a middle 

13 yield and then add the Chilean nitrate on top, we 

14 can make sure we're not over fertilizing.

15 MEMBER PETREY: And when you say over 

16 fertilizing you're meaning with the manures where 

17 we could be polluting with organic fertilizers?

18 MR. ELIJAH DEAN: Correct, yes. 

19 Possibility.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Elijah. 

21 I really appreciate your time today. Next up, 
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1 we have Dean, sorry, Jeff Dean.

2 MR. JEFF DEAN: Can you hear me okay?

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can.

4 MR. JEFF DEAN: All right. I am 

5 Jefferson Dean of TimberLane Organic Farms and you 

6 just heard from my son. Also an O for organic, 

7 Ohio ecological Food and Farmers Association Grain 

8 Growers Chapter member. I want to thank everybody 

9 for serving on the board. I know it's a big 

10 responsibility to uphold the integrity of organic 

11 industry and we appreciate your efforts. I have 

12 a few things I want to talk about. First is 

13 hydroponic and container systems. These systems 

14 do not use soil and they don't comply with the 

15 letter of the rules nor the spirit of the rules. 

16 Soil and soil building is right in the description 

17 of organics, as well as other places such as crop 

18 rotations, both stating that the goal is for --

19 to build soil. This needs to stop or change the 

20 rules. We can't have, you know, noncompliance 

21 being certified. As far as highly soluble 
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1 nitrogen fertilizers, this is an easy one for me 

2 because there's already a precedent, and that's 

3 Chilean nitrate. I support the, you know, the 

4 addition of this motion. And I think it's pretty 

5 simple. If a grower thinks it's too complicated 

6 to figure it out, they don't need to use it. You 

7 know, and if they're using it too much, they're 

8 probably not following the organic spirit of 

9 organic. So as far as timing of the NOSB meeting, 

10 this is getting to be a sore subject with me. I've 

11 been bringing this up -- this issue up for over 

12 five years about the times of the meetings -- and 

13 they need to be scheduled different so that more 

14 farmers can participate. I'm beginning to think 

15 that maybe the Board -- at least in the Board in 

16 the past, is -- didn't want farmers to participate 

17 and that's why we -- they've kept the meetings, 

18 you know, in the spring and the fall when it's very 

19 difficult for most farmers to participate. So I 

20 want to thank you again for listening to my comments 

21 and open to any questions.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

2 Jeff, for your comments today. Any questions from 

3 the board? Amy?

4 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, Jeff, I don't have 

5 a question for you this time, but I just want to 

6 say thank you. I really appreciate your 

7 participation taking time away from your 

8 operation. This is really important to hear your 

9 voice and the other farmers' voices. Thank you.

10 MR. JEFF DEAN: Thank you very much for 

11 your participation.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee.

13 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you. Also 

14 really appreciate you. I was wondering if you see 

15 this platform as a functional compromise to the 

16 timing question?

17 MR. JEFF DEAN: I'm not sure I think 

18 that meeting in person has more impact, but this 

19 helps definitely. The problem with meeting in 

20 person is that they're constantly big business 

21 trying to get in and water down the rules, and it's 
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1 very difficult for farmers to compete with that. 

2 And they can send an entourage of people to come 

3 in and, you know, speak to you, and it's very 

4 difficult for farmers to, you know, spend their 

5 own money to travel across country to try to 

6 compete. But I think in person it's more 

7 impactful. I would like to ask you is the 

8 in-person, you know, face-to-face conversation 

9 more impactful than the Zoom?

10 MEMBER JEFFERY: Good question. 

11 Honestly, this is we haven't -- my class hasn't 

12 had an in-person meeting yet, so the actual 

13 experience isn't there for me. And I'm really 

14 interested in whatever the functional compromises 

15 that gets us the most participation because I am 

16 very interested in all the farmer, especially small 

17 farmer prospective so thank you.

18 MR. JEFF DEAN: I'd also like to say 

19 even, this time of year, it's difficult for us to 

20 get away sometimes to do a Zoom. I know we've done 

21 a couple of them in the past --
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1 PARTICIPANT: Give me two minutes and 

2 then we go out.

3 MS. ARSENAULT: Sorry, I was -- Jeff, 

4 I just muted you by accident trying to mute someone 

5 else. So can you unmute yourself to finish? 

6 Sorry.

7 MR. JEFF DEAN: I'm sorry. I didn't 

8 realize that. I was like, even, you know, the 

9 meetings at this time of year, the spring and the 

10 fall are difficult, you know, sometimes, you know, 

11 we're lucky today, we're not, you know, out in the 

12 field, but we've done the call-ins at the edge of 

13 the field. We stopped the tractor and get in the 

14 pickup and call in. It can be difficult I know 

15 a lot of farmers don't participate because of that. 

16 So there's -- I don't see any reason why you can't 

17 have them, you know, in the winter and, you know, 

18 having them in Phoenix would be great so we can 

19 all come down and enjoy the week in warm weather, 

20 but anyhow. Thank you very much.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One thing I'd just 
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1 like to throw at this conversation is we do legally 

2 need six months between the meetings. So it's just 

3 tricky to find that, you know, if we're in the heat 

4 of the summer, then and the depth of the winter. 

5 Then always going to be folks who can't make it, 

6 but Rick has another question.

7 MEMBER GREENWOOD: Just --

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Rick, I think your 

9 muted.

10 MEMBER GREENWOOD: Jeff, I agree with 

11 you because I think I'm the only board member now, 

12 since I'm in my fifth year, that actually has been 

13 to the live meetings and I agree they are more 

14 impactful. In particular, since I also am a 

15 grower. Hearing the feelings that people have, 

16 in particular, when we went through a lot of the 

17 dairy issues, I mean, you really get a feel for 

18 what's going on that's missing on the Zoom. The 

19 other side of it is using the Zoom. Like for me, 

20 it's two days that I gain because I don't have 

21 travel time and so it's a tough question, it really 
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1 is. And so I just harvested two weeks ago and I'm 

2 in Southern California so it's really hard to 

3 balance out a big country like this and find a time 

4 that's appropriate for everyone. But, you know, 

5 I guess I can say I feel your pain.

6 MR. JEFF DEAN: Well the suggestions 

7 been made that we conduct the meeting up, you know, 

8 or move forward two months, two weeks, every time. 

9 And that would make, you know, comply with the 

10 six months thing, but also change the meeting every 

11 year, so that, you know, everybody has a chance.

12 MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes. Got it. 

13 Thanks a lot.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip, has a 

15 question.

16 MEMBER NANDWANI: Well, this is not a 

17 question, it's just a suggestion or a comment. 

18 Another option, you know, listening to this timing 

19 of the meetings, we have a hybrid formula that's 

20 available. And it could be in person as well as 

21 on the Zoom as well those who cannot make in person, 
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1 that's I wanted to --

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

3 that. Yes, there's going to be some piloting of 

4 some new tech integration in the, hopefully 

5 in-person fall meeting. So I hope that we'll be 

6 able to glean some ideas from that. Really 

7 appreciate your time today, Jeff, one question I 

8 just wanted to throw your way is: As an organic 

9 farmer, what is holding back your growth? What 

10 would -- and what do you think it would take for 

11 more of your neighbors to start going organic? 

12 You're conventional neighbors. What is it that 

13 we can -- what barriers are there and what can we 

14 overcome to make it happened?

15 MR. JEFF DEAN: Educate --

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Education of the 

17 consumer to drive demand so we have more markets?

18 MR. JEFF DEAN: No. Education of the 

19 farmers. I don't think they understand much about 

20 organic and sometimes there's still a bad 

21 connotation out there of what organic actually is 
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1 and how it works. And they're coming around, we 

2 picked up a fair amount of new growers in the last 

3 few years. The transition seems to be a tough 

4 hurdle for a conventional farmer to get over. When 

5 they actually go through it, I don't think it is 

6 as nearly as difficult as they think it is. But 

7 that would be part of the education on how to get 

8 through that. There's many ways to get through 

9 transition without, you know, a financial burden. 

10 So I think education is the key.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Well, 

12 we really appreciate your time here today.

13 MR. JEFF DEAN: But I think nutrition 

14 and education is key to all our problems in the 

15 world, social and economic. So --

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I can agree with 

17 that, yes.

18 MR. JEFF DEAN: Thank you.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Moving right 

20 along, we'll next time have Joel Kurtz followed 

21 by Raymond Yoder, Jr., and then Doyle Stoller. 
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1 Joel.

2 MR. KURTZ: Can you hear me?

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can.

4

5 MR. KURTZ: Hello. My name is Joel 

6 Kurtz. I worked as an agronomist at Maysville 

7 Elevator. We are a local feed elevator located 

8 in the Amish community in Holmes County, Ohio. 

9 I'm also a contract inspector for OEFFA. And I 

10 want to thank all the board members for the service 

11 you've been providing certainly. Thank you for 

12 that. First comment, I support restricting the 

13 highest volume of nitrogen fertilizers. I think 

14 this will encourage the farmers to manage far more 

15 ecologically from an organic systems approach. 

16 I believe farmers can be more profitable and 

17 provide healthier food crops by managing soil 

18 health instead of depending more on the purchase 

19 type of inputs. And then also on the oversight, 

20 the -- to deter fraud, you're gaining trackability 

21 infrastructure. I support a universal bill of 
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1 lading. I believe this would increase 

2 transparency. And then on acreage reporting, I 

3 believe acreage reporting would work best if 

4 approached by size, small acreage could be reported 

5 as mixed crops. I think on Tuesday we had -- we 

6 heard about that conversation. And then just a 

7 side note on data systems, building traceability 

8 infrastructure. I believe the integrity and the 

9 future success of the organic system is dependent 

10 on a flexible, decentralized auditing system, 

11 versus a single centralized system. Recent world 

12 events have shown that being dependent on 

13 centralized systems is not in the best interest 

14 of people that need food to survive which is all 

15 of us. By having flexible, diverse auditing 

16 methods, it appears to not be as efficient, but 

17 when one method fails, another method may be able 

18 to continue providing the needed service. 

19 Variability and farm size also can dictate what 

20 method is most successful for farmers. I guess, 

21 in short, paper still has value. Thanks again to 
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1 the Board and I'm open for questions.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I just want to 

3 throw out real quick that I am so excited we have 

4 someone from the Amish community commenting today. 

5 I think this is something really, really special 

6 to be able to hear from a wider swath of organic 

7 farmers. So thank you for your time. Any 

8 questions from the Board right now? I have a 

9 question for you. When we look at -- we've heard 

10 from several mostly certifiers, that we want to 

11 create record keeping requirements and 

12 advancements in record keeping that are not overly 

13 burdensome on certain groups, such as the Plain 

14 community who's going to usually more paper-based. 

15 With this idea of a universal bill of lading does 

16 that seem doable with the paper, primarily 

17 paper-based systems that your community and your 

18 business runs on?

19 MR. KURTZ: Yes, I believe so. If you 

20 have -- if we've got a universal bill of lading 

21 that the farmer can actually fill out, and that 
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1 can follow along to, you know, the end-user or sale, 

2 like for example, the elevator at that point, if 

3 it's a non-Amish business that can input that into 

4 the data system, I don't think that would be a 

5 problem.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. I 

7 really appreciate that. And then in looking at 

8 the acreage reporting, do you feel that you and 

9 your neighbors and other folks in your community 

10 are comfortable having their acreages listed on 

11 the certificate?

12 MR. KURTZ: Yes, I believe they are 

13 comfortable reporting their acreage. The big 

14 thing is just making, you know, moves in planning 

15 in the springtime when they change which crops they 

16 do. And most of them are smaller acreage with, 

17 you know, 20 acres all the way down to, you know, 

18 around three-quarter acre or whatever. But no, 

19 I don't think they would have a problem reporting 

20 the actual acreage for their crops.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 
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1 much for that. Amy has a question.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, Joel, thank you for 

3 your time today and participation. And it sounds 

4 like you participated through listening on Tuesday 

5 too, so the thanks for that. You just mentioned 

6 in your answer to Nate that if we had some type 

7 of a universal bill of lading that could maybe 

8 transfer through. And I see that you're a part 

9 of, and you mentioned this, the Maysville Elevator. 

10 Is there a chance with low burden to associate 

11 the bills of lading that farmers have with the 

12 settlement sheets that maybe you supply growers 

13 just so that reconciliation and tieback could take 

14 place with low burden?

15 MR. KURTZ: Yes, I believe so. I 

16 believe something like back to work out. 

17 Obviously, as far as the elevator goes, we have 

18 to keep, you know, records anyway, and we are 

19 dealing with the farmer. And so the farmer's 

20 success and our success hinges on us working 

21 together and making it work for both of us. And 
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1 so I guess I feel in our situation, if we can provide 

2 something that the farmer has a hard time providing 

3 himself, if we can provide that for the farmer, 

4 and provide that integration into the system, that 

5 will be very beneficial to the farmers and they 

6 will not have a problem to use it that way.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Great. Thank you so 

8 much.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Joel. 

10 Thank you so much for your participation and 

11 comments. Next up, we have Raymond Yoder Jr. 

12 followed by Doyle Stoller, and then Alan Lewis. 

13 So Raymond --

14 MR. YODER: Good afternoon. Can you 

15 hear me?

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can just 

17 go ahead.

18

19 MR. YODER: Okay. So Raymond Yoder 

20 Jr. representing Green Field Farms here. So Green 

21 Field Farms we have about 330 members and we're 
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1 neighbors with Joel here in the Plain community 

2 in Central Ohio. And our mission is to keep the 

3 small families on the farm. Being that bridge from 

4 the producer to the consumer. And I'm going to 

5 thank all the NOSB Board members for your time 

6 serving. Hopefully the rewards of positive change 

7 can outweigh the personal sacrifice that it takes 

8 to do that. First off, I'm going to support the 

9 continued use of restricted micronutrients. I 

10 feel those are just very essential for soil health 

11 and highly nutritious crops. And at the same time, 

12 I do want to mention something that we have really 

13 worked with or struggled with and that is 

14 magnesium. Most of the soils that we work with 

15 in the Midwest region, it's inherently high in 

16 magnesium, the soils are. And we've found that 

17 it's just always low in the crop, if we do a tissue 

18 analysis and the -- our preferred source for 

19 magnesium correction is magnesium sulfate. And 

20 in the letter of the rule, it says it's restricted 

21 in the soil. And so for high in the soil, we're 
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1 low in the crop and we, you know, we talk about 

2 this in our winter meetings with the farmers and 

3 we always get that question. Well, it's -- we 

4 can't apply it because it's excessive in the soil. 

5 So my recommendation would be to change the rule 

6 there so that we could -- and so the thing of it 

7 is the magnesium deficiency is often identified 

8 by the farmers as a nitrogen deficiency because 

9 it looks similar, yet it is identifiable. And if 

10 we -- nitrogen covers it up. But if we use nitrogen 

11 to do that, quality suffers, unless magnesium is 

12 fully applied. The other thing on the highly 

13 soluble nitrogen. I do support the proposal there 

14 to -- I -- the concept -- the commercialized concept 

15 of applying, you know, so many parts per million 

16 of NPK every day for record yields is just not soil 

17 friendly, so thank you.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

19 much for your comments today and your 

20 participation. Amy has a question for you.

21 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Thank you so much 
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1 for your participation today, Raymond. I thought 

2 it was very interesting. What you're talking 

3 about with soil balance being key and I tend to 

4 agree with you that calcium-magnesium relationship 

5 is really important and sometimes nitrogen might 

6 seem like it's not there when it really is. So 

7 getting that soil balance is important but I wanted 

8 to ask you, in terms of it looked like maybe if 

9 you had more time, you're going to get to CACS in 

10 our topic, one of our topics is on, yes. One of 

11 our topics is on a just on a universal bills of 

12 lading and displaying acreage potentially on your 

13 certificate. I had a question from you with your 

14 buyers --

15 MR. YODER: Yes.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: -- has anybody 

17 requested anything in addition to your 

18 certificates in the past just to prove what you 

19 grow is what you can sell?

20 MR. YODER: Our buyers have not other 

21 than, you know, obviously they request a lot of 
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1 food safety paperwork, you know, our farm food 

2 safety plans and all our gap certificates and 

3 things like that but as far as for integrity 

4 purposes? No.

5 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

6 MR. YODER: And we do sell direct to 

7 Kroger's and Harris Teeter and places like that.

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Raymond.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

10 you again, Raymond, thank you for your comments. 

11 Next up --

12 MR. YODER: Your welcome.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- we have Doyle 

14 Stoller, followed by Alan Lewis, David Meyer, 

15 Jackie DeMinter, and then we'll take a break. So 

16 thank you, everyone. The conversations have been 

17 robust and we're running a little behind, which 

18 is okay. All right. Doyle, yes, please go ahead.

19

20

21 MR. STOLLER: Hi. We are dairy 
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1 farmers in North Central Ohio. We've been organic 

2 since 2001 before there was even a market, so we 

3 clearly believe in the system. My dad's actually 

4 on the board of directors of Organic Valley, so 

5 but anyway, the reason I'm here. I don't want to 

6 sound impersonal, but at the same time. So I can, 

7 you know, keep everything clear and get away once 

8 I'm just going to read a little bit here. I'm here 

9 to highlight the importance and necessity of copper 

10 and zinc hoof care products. Heel warms and foot 

11 rot is present on most dairy farms. These two 

12 pathogens were on our farm when we moved here in 

13 1996. Most well managed farms use copper and zinc 

14 products both and foot baths and sprays or salves. 

15 Without these products, heel warts and hoof rot 

16 would rapidly become the top animal health and 

17 welfare concern in any farms. While some 

18 conventional farmers use antibiotics or dangerous 

19 products like formaldehyde, most conventional and 

20 all organic farmers use safer copper and zinc 

21 products treatment for cow's feet. Most effective 
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1 salves and sprays contains zinc sulfate, zinc 

2 oxide, and/or zinc chloride. For some reason, 

3 zinc sulfate was not allowed for a few years, which 

4 is part of why I'm here, I don't want copper sulfate 

5 to go by that road. And foot problems are painful 

6 and animal welfare suffered on our farm because 

7 there was some products we were using but we're 

8 not allowed to use anymore. Most everyone would 

9 also agree that the best hoof programs alternate 

10 products and active ingredients. For example, our 

11 hoof trimmer advised us to use a product called 

12 PINXAV, it's actually a baby diaper rash ointment. 

13 We use it on her own children, even as infants. 

14 I submitted it for review and all the ingredients 

15 are acceptable except for the active ingredient 

16 which is zinc oxidize. Most good hoof healthcare 

17 options are not allowed because zinc oxide, zinc 

18 chloride, or zinc oxide origin are their active 

19 ingredient. This is very confusing due to the fact 

20 the zinc oxide and zinc chloride are an acceptable 

21 organic feed ingredient. If I can feed these 
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1 products. Confusing, why can't my cow step in it? 

2 Copper sulfate is good and is most commonly used 

3 as a foot bath ingredient. Most organic farmers 

4 use this in foot baths as stated earlier, because 

5 the zinc options are not allowed and it is important 

6 that we still have this, however, we don't feel 

7 copper is as effective as zinc products when 

8 sprayed or wrapped on feet. And also when using 

9 only copper, it can build up in the soil and can 

10 cause copper toxicity. On the other hand, zinc 

11 is always deficient and beneficial in our soils 

12 and the cropper removal rates are much higher. 

13 And I've never heard of zinc being a problem in 

14 as far as in the soil. So from my perspective, 

15 I think it'd be very beneficial if we can have zinc

16 oxide and zinc chloride as well as copper and zinc 

17 sulfate and they are acceptable for feed, it seems 

18 like they should be okay for feet.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

20 comments. We don't get -- we haven't heard much 

21 about livestock. So this is great. Kayla, please 
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1 go ahead.

2 MEMBER SMITH: I don't have a question, 

3 Nate. Don't chastise me. I have a comment.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Again?

5 MEMBER SMITH: So zinc sulfate was in 

6 the same place before this copper sulfate being 

7 allowed and the zinc sulfate not being allowed. 

8 And so it was petitioned. So anybody out there 

9 listening who is wanting to petition those, that's 

10 how we got them onto the list. So that could be 

11 submitted as a petition to the Board and we will 

12 go through a rigorous review process and we will 

13 vote them on or off so that let's someone to try 

14 to get them petitioned on. But zinc sulfate was 

15 in the very same space before where there were 

16 certifiers who were allowing it based, again about 

17 being able to feed it to animals, it's a helpful 

18 mineral. And so we were like because see that to 

19 animals, it should be allowed as a topical and 

20 several certifiers got in trouble for that. So 

21 hence, the petition process and now it's on the 
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1 list.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So there is the 

3 path forward. All hope is not lost. So yes, the 

4 team at Organic Valley can probably be a really 

5 great resource to write up a petition for us as 

6 well. So thank you so much for your comments 

7 today. Really appreciate your time. All right. 

8 Moving along. We next have Alan Lewis, followed 

9 by David Meyer, and then Jackie DeMinter.

10 MR. LEWIS: Nate, the moment you said 

11 that I lost video so I'm going to continue with 

12 audio only; is that okay?

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That's just fine, 

14 thank you.

15 MR. LEWIS: Sorry about that.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No worries.

17

18 MR. LEWIS: Alan Lewis from Natural 

19 Grocers and I have some comments from 36,000 feet. 

20 I spent a good part of last year working with IFOAM 

21 -- Organics International under the Organic 3.0 
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1 rubric, with the leadership from five different 

2 continents in some very complicated midnight 

3 conference calls. But it really is highlighted 

4 the difference between U.S. framework for organics 

5 versus the global organic movement, which is so 

6 focused on community and equity and sovereignty 

7 and security as the long-term values. And I just 

8 want to drive this point home when we look at 

9 hydroponics in the U.S. I remember speakers 

10 talking about the four trophic levels of 

11 hydroponic, and how that qualified as a active 

12 biological system. But really it's for 

13 catastrophic levels of hydroponic because we have 

14 270 berry operations in containers in Mexico, 75 

15 tomato operations of Mexico. And these cover 

16 miles of land with hoop houses. It's not 

17 well-paid, humane, fair, just labor. There's no 

18 sanitation. They're using water that there is not 

19 enough of. And they're returning it polluted to 

20 the landscape. Those trophic levels, but there's 

21 nothing for us to brag about. And that is 
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1 primarily CCOF Primus in berries, CCOF Primus tilt 

2 and tomatoes. So why does that matter to us? It's 

3 just Mexico. But we're losing small holder 

4 organic farmers in the U.S. because the price 

5 premium is disappeared. It's now a disadvantage 

6 to be an organic berry or tomato grower because 

7 you will see side-by-side an identical product for 

8 $1 less per pint, $2 less per pint on the shelf. 

9 So retailers like Natural Grocers can't sell real 

10 berries because our competitor next store is 

11 selling the hydroponics. This is broken our 

12 system. And IFOAM International looks at the U.S. 

13 as a cautionary tale, not as a leader and not as 

14 a partner in many ways. It's very much a 

15 cautionary tale. Lastly, now we're moving in a 

16 synthetic biology. You've heard the buzzwords: 

17 tools in the toolbox, science-based policy, yada, 

18 yada, yada, gene-edited seeds, seed coatings, RNA 

19 applications. Those are all science and we can 

20 do science state policy around them, but we can't 

21 do science without ethics. And look at 
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1 hydroponics as a broken system of ethics for what 

2 we've done to ourselves by not really addressing 

3 the consequences. The concentrations of wealth, 

4 ownership, and control in just that sector have 

5 overwhelmed us. And that is my comment. Thank 

6 you, Nate.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

8 Alan. Any questions from the Board? Hearing 

9 that, I'll just pose, right at the end there, Alan, 

10 concentration in ownership of means of production 

11 for agriculture. I had mentioned yesterday that 

12 it's actually quite tricky and a lot of my world, 

13 a lot of rural America to find organic products. 

14 I believe you had said, Go to your local co-op 

15 or your Natural Grocers. Those only exist in the 

16 biggest cities, at least in Montana. So where --

17 how do we get to this point where honestly gas 

18 stations are carrying organic. How do we make it 

19 so that where people buy food is where organic is 

20 available? How do we grow this so that it's not 

21 niche, it's not only in our biggest cities that 
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1 we can find organic, but it becomes the norm? What 

2 do we need to do?

3 MR. LEWIS: Well, we made a deal for 

4 the devil to get non-seasonal production down in 

5 Mexico and other places to get a year round supply 

6 that's cheap and that's pushed into the 

7 distribution system like McLane or Shamrock or U.S. 

8 Foods that's going into convenience stores and 

9 small groceries. So the cost of that is we no 

10 longer have local food systems. So that grocery 

11 store is only buying from a distributor who's 

12 sourcing globally. And at the same time, even if 

13 that grocery store manager runs a farm and he wants 

14 to grow berries, he has no or she has no ability 

15 to sell those berries at the store. We've broken 

16 that system from logistics, to local health 

17 ordinances, to consumer acceptance of local goods. 

18 That's the right question, but we really need to 

19 look away from the U.S. to answer that question 

20 for how to move forward, or I would say look to 

21 the Real Organic Project, who does bring ethics 
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1 into science-based policy, and does embed culture 

2 and agriculture into communities, as opposed to 

3 just thinking of it as a commodity with a specific 

4 set of characteristics.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

6 comments today. Really appreciate your time. 

7 Next up, we have David Meyer followed by Jackie 

8 DeMinter, and then we'll all take a well needed 

9 break. So please, David, go ahead.

10 MR. MEYER: Hello, everyone. And 

11 thank you for your time. As a former farm kid, 

12 I want to just say thanks for all the Board members. 

13 I grew up on a small farm in Central Wisconsin, 

14 I really appreciate and I understand how much time 

15 and effort it takes to serve on the Board and this 

16 is a very important topic. I'm going to talk about 

17 pectin, so change up a little bit here. We're 

18 going to talk about food ingredients and 

19 specifically about pectin, non-emanated forms of 

20 pectin. On the national list of non-organically 

21 produced agricultural products allowed as 
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1 ingredients in or on process products labeled as 

2 organic.

3 Next slide, please. Pectin is used in 

4 variety of food applications. It's found in 

5 almost all plant material. However, it has a 

6 really unique functionality that we use for 

7 particular products. Jams and jellies is the top 

8 one. Pectin is the only ingredient that's allowed 

9 in standard of identity products that can be sold 

10 as organic, and it provides that unique, spreadable 

11 texture that we're used to. It's also used in 

12 bakery, breads, cakes, muffin. It enhances the 

13 freeze possibility that increases volume in those 

14 products, it's very important. In bakery and 

15 fruit yogurt preparations, this is an alternative 

16 to starch. It creates texture and it allows baked 

17 stability so you can bake those without having it 

18 fall all over or leak out into the oven. It 

19 delivers better fruit flavors compared to starch. 

20 We use it in yogurt white mass as well to create 

21 body and mouth feel. It's using a variety of 
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1 beverages from fruit juices to coffee beverages. 

2 It protects proteins from having aggravation as 

3 their process. And then of course, confectionary 

4 too. We all love gummy products and pectin can 

5 be used there as well.

6 Next slide, please. So pectin is very 

7 unique, in the gel texture it provides, the protein 

8 stabilization it provides, the mouth feel in 

9 beverages, and the accessibility. You can see 

10 some of the other hydrocolloid alternatives that 

11 we have, carrageenan, locust bean gum, guar, among 

12 others, none of them create exactly the same 

13 attributes that we see in pectin.

14 So I just want to go ahead one more slide 

15 and I'm going to answer this. The availability 

16 of organic pectin. So organic fruit we see all 

17 over, right? But the vast majority of organic 

18 fruit is sold as whole fresh fruit. And therefore, 

19 there is neither the quantity nor the quality of 

20 organic peel available to produce organic pectin 

21 commercially. And that's why we need to have it 
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1 on this list. Thank you very much for your time. 

2 I appreciate it and I'd be happy to answer any 

3 questions.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for such 

5 a clear presentation. I believe, Brian, did you 

6 have a question? I saw your hand go up for a sec.

7 MEMBER CALDWELL: I did. It's about 

8 organic availability and I guess I would like to 

9 ask David. Thanks for your comments. And are 

10 there other sources besides citrus peels for pectin 

11 like, I don't know. Well, anyways, are there other 

12 ones and maybe could be supplied organically, I'm 

13 wondering.

14 MR. MEYER: There are other sources. 

15 I mean, apple would be the other major source that 

16 we would see. However, the apple organic market 

17 also is sold primarily fresh as whole apples. So 

18 anytime it goes to the consumer in a whole fresh 

19 fruit option, then we don't have the opportunity 

20 to get the pectin out of that. So that is also 

21 problematic. There's pectin in sugar beets also, 
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1 but it creates some problems in that different 

2 pectins act differently. So citrus fruit is the 

3 best choice as far as creating a strong gel for 

4 the jams and jellies that we're looking for. And 

5 that's why it's used. You know, there are some 

6 other sources but different pectins definitely 

7 react very differently. And at this point, there 

8 just aren't enough, you know, organic sources of 

9 any of those others to use.

10 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks a lot.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

12 comments today. Appreciate it. All right. Next 

13 up -- Dilip, go ahead. I'm sorry.

14 MEMBER NANDWANI: Sorry, I took a 

15 second to raise my hand.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Not a problem.

17 MEMBER NANDWANI: You know, the pectin 

18 we probably all know that it's a cementing material 

19 between the cell wall -- probably, I mean, I see 

20 you're nodding and I think we all know that. So 

21 organic sources are limited and I'm just wondering 
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1 that, what can you tell us a little bit about its 

2 manufacturing or the processing from the fruit such 

3 as you mentioned oranges or can you just quickly 

4 tell us a little about that? Thanks.

5 MR. MEYER: About how it's 

6 manufactured? Is that what you're --

7 MEMBER NANDWANI: That's right. How 

8 do you --

9 MR. MEYER: Yes. So I'll just give you 

10 a citrus example because that's primarily where 

11 we get most of our pectin. So the citrus fruit 

12 industry, they harvest the oranges, or limes, or 

13 lemons. The first thing they do is juice them. 

14 So they take that juice, and that juice is 

15 concentrated, used for fruit juices, those things. 

16 The next thing they would do is take out the oil. 

17 So citrus oil can be used for a lot of different 

18 things. The primary use in the U.S. is for like 

19 sodas, right? So they extract that as well. 

20 Next, we have -- you would take that and then that's 

21 where -- so you have, what's left is cellulose, 
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1 hemicellulose, and pectin. And then we would 

2 extract that pectin out of that matrix of cellulose 

3 and hemicellulose using a low acid and heat 

4 extraction, okay? So that's how we would get it 

5 out and then it's dried down from there and sold 

6 as pectin.

7 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you for that 

8 information. I appreciate that.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Thank you, 

10 David. Next up, we've got a Jackie DeMinter and 

11 then we'll break. After the break, we have Mike 

12 Dill, Adam Lazar, and then Michael Hansen. So 

13 Jackie, the floor is yours.

14

15

16 MS. DEMINTER: Good afternoon. My 

17 name is Jackie DeMinter. I am the certification 

18 policy manager at MOSA. Thank you for your work 

19 and for providing this meeting in a virtual format. 

20 We certify over 2,000 organic operations 

21 throughout the U.S., including over 1,750 with 
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1 crops, 730 with livestock, and 325 handlers. I'll 

2 summarize our written comments on sunset materials 

3 and highly soluble nitrogen fertilizers. I'll 

4 highlight just a few sunset materials. Livestock 

5 materials, glucose containing products are 

6 typically used as an electrolyte in our experience, 

7 we have almost 20 inputs containing copper sulfate 

8 used by approximately 115 clients. Lidocaine is 

9 one of the most common pain relievers in use by 

10 more than 100 clients primarily for dehorning, crop 

11 materials, biodegradable, bio-based mulch film. 

12 We are not aware of any 100 percent bio-based, 

13 biodegradable mulch film. Due to this, no 

14 products are in use by most clients, however, more 

15 than 210 MOSA certified operations are using a 

16 synthetic plastic mulch. We encourage review of 

17 products available on the current market to ensure 

18 potential for compliance with all four review 

19 criteria and if none are available, sunsetting the 

20 listing. Humates, humic acids, and fulvic acid 

21 are very common ingredients in crop products; 94 
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1 inputs of humates as the ingredient are in use by 

2 hundreds of MOSA clients. Almost 60 inputs 

3 contain humic acids, approximately 45 inputs 

4 contained fulvic acid. Fulvic acid review 

5 criteria differs than that only non-synthetic 

6 acids or water are allowed as extractants, as for 

7 humic acid, alkaline extracts are also acceptable. 

8 Micronutrient use is very common. More than 200 

9 micronutrient inputs are in use by hundreds MOSA 

10 clients. Of the handling materials, diatomaceous 

11 earth, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, sodium 

12 phosphates, casings, and pectin are the most common 

13 materials MOSA clients use. Finally, regarding 

14 highly soluble nitrogen fertilizers. We 

15 appreciate the NOSB working to solve concerns 

16 before they may develop. However, in our work we 

17 have not experienced sodium nitrate being used in 

18 a manner that is concerning nor do we have any 

19 clients using a natural ammonia extract product. 

20 From our perspective, it looks like the proposal 

21 will impact guano and sodium nitrate in use by MOSA 
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1 certified clients and would create additional 

2 steps in our review work but not change the inputs 

3 MOSA clients use. Ultimately, we want to maintain 

4 our ability to discern when organic integrity is 

5 negatively impacted or threatened by the use of 

6 these materials without any additional unnecessary 

7 review work. In closing, thank you for the long 

8 hours you commit to this work and thank you for 

9 the opportunity to comment.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

11 your time preparing those comments today. Any 

12 questions for Jackie from the Board? I have one 

13 for you, Jackie. I have two actually and I realize 

14 we're about to break, so pressure's on.

15 MS. DEMINTER: Okay.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: How do we get --

17 what is it that's holding us back from MOSA 

18 realizing 4,000 clients instead of the current 

19 2,000? What is it that will allow us to make it 

20 so that organic is such an obvious route?

21 MS. DEMINTER: Boy, that's a tough one 
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1 to answer, Nate. Capacity comes to mind right 

2 away. As far as, you know, expanding the capacity 

3 to do the work, the boots on the ground, the 

4 inspectors, the reviewers, the career path for 

5 individuals that could stand from development 

6 work.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay, So human 

8 capital; we are on that. Absolutely. Could you 

9 clarify just a little bit? In there you were 

10 saying that you appreciate the opportunity to 

11 monitor organic integrity for highly soluble 

12 nitrogen products but don't want additional undue 

13 review work. What review work do you do now for 

14 sodium nitrate? And is there a way to make it 

15 fairly easy to analyze?

16 MS. DEMINTER: Well, I don't know the 

17 answer to that second, and I don't know of how easy 

18 to analyze necessarily. In our experience, and 

19 I detailed this in the written comments, the inputs 

20 that we see and used by our clients, not speaking 

21 for all areas of the United States by any means 
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1 are not of concern because the sodium nitrate is 

2 usually an ingredient in a multi-ingredient 

3 product in a vast amount of inputs in use by 

4 clients. So we can look at the file, look at their 

5 input inventory, and see that they're not abusing 

6 the use of this input. As far as work is that we 

7 do right now, since we do not have the 20 percent 

8 restriction effective anymore. We don't actually 

9 measure that or do the math, but we used to do that. 

10 And in every case we never once discovered that 

11 it was in use in amount greater than 20 percent, 

12 even though we put the numbers on the paper, and 

13 did that work. We just -- in our experience, don't 

14 have the concern for abuse or overuse of a highly 

15 soluble nitrogen fertilizer by our clients. There 

16 are a couple of clients who use like a 16-0-0 

17 product. But again, it's one of many, many 

18 products, and they're using it in extreme times 

19 or when soil temperatures aren't warm enough or 

20 things like that as we've heard other commenters 

21 saying.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. I 

2 appreciate that. Okay. Thank you so much for 

3 your comments today.

4 MS. DEMINTER: Yes, thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So it is just 

6 almost to the top of the hour, so let's come back 

7 in 15 minutes. And after our break, we're going 

8 to start with Mike Dill, followed by Adam Lazar, 

9 and then Michael Hansen. And so come back at 12 

10 after the hour. All right. Thanks, everybody. 

11 See you in a bit.

12 MS. ARSENAULT: Thanks, Nate.

13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

14 went off the record at 1:57 p.m. and resumed at 

15 2:12 p.m.)

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we're back, 12 

17 after the hour. Hope everyone was able to grab 

18 a snack and get ready for some more input from the 

19 community. All right. So first up, we've got 

20 Mike Dill, followed by Adam Lazar and then Michael 

21 Hansen. All right. Floor is yours, Mike.

22
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1 MR. DILL: All right. Thank you. 

2 Good afternoon, everyone or good morning. My name 

3 is Mike Dill and I'm representing the Organic 

4 Produce Wholesalers Coalition. The OPWC is 

5 comprised of seven businesses that distribute 

6 fresh organic produce to customer located across 

7 the United States and internationally. I'll be 

8 commenting on technical support for NOSB and 

9 modernization of supply chain traceability. On 

10 technical support, OPWC recognizes both the work 

11 load and lack of compensation limit the pool of 

12 people who are able to serve as volunteer members 

13 of the NOSB. And we support the NOSB receiving 

14 more technical help. That said, the work of any 

15 technical supporter should be subject to conflict 

16 of interest declarations and confidentiality 

17 agreements. We feel there are some types of 

18 technical support that are not appropriate to 

19 support the NOSB, and those include but are not 

20 limited to serving as the primary author of an NOSB 

21 or subcommittee document, initiating polls of 
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1 stakeholder groups, input into the subcommittee 

2 or board decision-making process, and 

3 communications on behalf of the NOSB or 

4 subcommittee.

5 Related to modernization of supply 

6 chain trace ability. We again greatly appreciate 

7 the CCS's focus on traceability in fraud 

8 prevention. We support the standardization BOLs, 

9 but strongly oppose the requirement to list acreage 

10 on certificates for produce operations. In the 

11 fall 2021 proposal on this topic, the subcommittee 

12 stated this, the NOSB recognizes the need to not 

13 burden organic farmers, certifiers, or inspectors 

14 with additional paperwork. OPWC asserts that this 

15 proposal would result in heavy paperwork burden 

16 for specialty crop growers and buyers. Requiring 

17 acreage on certificates, especially by crop, would 

18 lead to more unnecessary non-compliances for 

19 certified operations, that failed to disclose 

20 every change in planting quantities. A compliance 

21 issue that is not related to organic integrity. 
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1 This in turn would disrupt and slow down product 

2 movement through the supply chain. Additionally, 

3 it would shift the focus of inspections even 

4 further toward paperwork rather than on practices 

5 and organic controls. We provide more detail 

6 about this burden in our written comments and I 

7 encourage you to consider them when finding future 

8 work on this topic.

9 I'd like to use the rest of my time to 

10 again bring forward OPWC's suggestions for 

11 building out handling standards at 205-270. We 

12 acknowledge that there are many competing 

13 priorities at this time, however we feel that the 

14 concept should be high on the list as it would 

15 positively impact every certified operation, as 

16 well as provide a guide for the currently 

17 uncertified handlers that SOE will require become 

18 certified for the first time. We also note that 

19 there are elements of handling and at least 10 to 

20 the 23 backlogged NOSB standard recommendations. 

21 Creating distinct handling standards offers an 
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1 efficient way to address these points 

2 systematically while clearing the backlog. 

3 Comprehensive handling standards will benefit 

4 certified operations, inspectors, and certifiers 

5 by clarifying record keeping requirements related 

6 to handling activities, as well as organic controls 

7 between harvest and processing or distribution. 

8 Standards also provide the basis for holding 

9 certified operations accountable for all their 

10 handling activities. It is our hope that the CACS 

11 will assess our proposed handling standards and 

12 consider them for future work agenda item. Thank 

13 you.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

15 for your comments, Mike. Jerry has a question.

16 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes, sir. Mike, 

17 thank you very much for the comments today and an 

18 extra shout out for your team and the written 

19 responses that you gave to the NOSB technical 

20 support discussion document. Your answer those 

21 questions that we had in there doesn't even need 
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1 review, there were so thorough. But I'd like to 

2 focus on a sentence that you had in the preamble 

3 or the opening paragraph and maybe my question 

4 doesn't have an answer because maybe there was this 

5 one sentence is so self-understood that there's 

6 not much expounding that you can do about it or 

7 on it. In there you write, or one has written, 

8 we recognize that both the workload and the lack 

9 of compensation limit the pool of people who are 

10 able to accept nomination for the NOSBC. Now 

11 again, that's in my mind, I just -- a true and 

12 obvious statement. But as you wrote that, was 

13 there a path that you took, you know, a analysis 

14 that you made? Is there more meat that you can 

15 put on that particular subject?

16 MR. DILL: I really wish we could. I 

17 think it's one of those things that we all as a 

18 community understand is an deterrence from being 

19 on the Board. And I know there's limitations to, 

20 you're prohibited from compensating folks, but 

21 maybe there's other ways around it. We haven't 
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1 put that at top of our agenda to really, you know, 

2 assess alternatives. You know, there likely are, 

3 maybe there's ways that we could I'm just throwing 

4 something out theoretically, but maybe someone 

5 that's a crop grower and that they get free 

6 certification if they are on the NOSB or, you know, 

7 maybe we can get creative with it. But really we 

8 just, you know, we feel it's unfortunate that the 

9 workload is so heavy and it requires so much time 

10 in that it does require kind of a sponsor, you know, 

11 in organization like ourselves, you know, we could 

12 absorb the cost to have someone sit on the NOSB, 

13 but a small farmer, you know, definitely can't. 

14 There's too many competing priorities. So I 

15 just, I think it's fair to acknowledge that and 

16 we state it here as a way to say that we definitely 

17 support NOSB members having some sort of support 

18 system that might help reduce that workload so that 

19 it can be more manageable.

20 MEMBER D'AMORE: Well, you did a 

21 wonderful job with, perhaps an awkward question 
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1 that was so open-ended. This is, I've been going 

2 into my third year on the Board and every single 

3 session that I participated in, our whole 

4 self-evaluation of diversity, inclusion, equity. 

5 You know, we're pretty hard on ourselves there 

6 and then the community rightfully so, is was pretty 

7 hard on us as well. And I found that one sentence 

8 to be extremely meaningful and you filled in some 

9 blanks there, but extremely meaningful in terms 

10 of our future capability, should we get something 

11 like put together to address exactly that issue. 

12 So I see a lot of the document and I can't thank 

13 you folks enough for being so diligent in all that 

14 you've done with it. I will share with you that 

15 today --

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'd like to 

17 quietly cut you off, Jerry. Only for time.

18 MEMBER D'AMORE: One time. Okay.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, go 

20 ahead.

21 MEMBER D'AMORE: No, I just wanted to 
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1 comment to Mike that universally, there's nobody 

2 in opposition to this, but there's a thousand 

3 different ways and suggestions of getting it done. 

4 And that makes it challenging. And when people 

5 are willing to put so much thought into it, it's 

6 very helpful. Thank you very much.

7 MR. DILL: And we thank you for your 

8 time and dedication.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla has a 

10 question.

11 MEMBER SMITH: Hello, thanks for your 

12 comments. I was wondering in regards to the 

13 revision to the handling standards if you felt --

14 if this were to become a work agenda item. If you 

15 felt it was important to have SOE across the finish 

16 line first or if work could be done prior to seeing 

17 the finalized form of that rule?

18

19 MR. DILL: That is a great question and 

20 one that we have been, you know, kind of grappling 

21 with a little bit. It's like, how hard do we push 
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1 for this without knowing what SOE is going to look 

2 like exactly. As you know, that's where, you know, 

3 handling standard concept originated is to our 

4 response to SOE. And I think we all just want to 

5 see what that looks like. So I think right now 

6 is a good time to assess it as a future work plan. 

7 And, you know, I think myself and the rest of the 

8 community, has our fingers crossed that we'll see 

9 SOE pretty soon. But I -- we just feel that it's 

10 so important to get clarity around this, and 

11 really, you know, move forward. I don't 

12 personally think that SOE is going to have a lot 

13 of the elements in it that we are asking for. And 

14 I think a good example is like sanitation. We 

15 talked so much about sanitizers on the list and 

16 that's really all the -- the only place they appear. 

17 And then in the standards it's preventing 

18 commingling and contamination. But wouldn't it 

19 be great to have a set of standards or a portion 

20 that talked about what is required for sanitation, 

21 intervening steps. And you know, just ways that 
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1 limit the -- eliminate the need for, you know, 

2 certifier interpretation or review of like a SOP 

3 for each, you know? Because what we're doing right 

4 now is we submit an SOP and the certifier says yes, 

5 that looks good or it doesn't based on your 

6 preventing contamination, but we don't know what 

7 that really looks like. So and then as it relates 

8 to the backlog of, you know, NOP standard 

9 recommendations, I feel that maybe it's a good idea 

10 to try to implement handling standards at the same 

11 time or even before doing that so that we don't 

12 have to, you know, consider handling portions of 

13 each one of those you know, standards as we work 

14 through those.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

16 comments, Mike. All right. Next up, we've got 

17 Adam Lazar, followed by Michael Hansen, and then 

18 RedElisa Mendoza, I don't think we're seeing you 

19 yet. And Carol Walker, if you can make yourself 

20 known. That'd be great. Okay. Adam, please go 

21 ahead.
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1 MR. LAZAR: Thank you very much for 

2 having me, everybody. My name is Adam Lazar. I'm 

3 the founder and CEO of Asarasi. We're a plant 

4 source water company. And I'm going to show with 

5 you for a few minutes just how we can advance 20,000 

6 North American farmers becoming organic certified 

7 and changing the face of the organic industry by 

8 talking about something really simple called 

9 water.

10 Next slide, please. Now, we know water 

11 is an enormous global issue that affects farmers 

12 and everyone right here at home from consumers and 

13 households alike and with stage 2 tear water 

14 restrictions in the U.S. on the Colorado River. 

15 There's never been a better time to find 

16 alternative sources of pure water.

17 Next slide, please. I discovered a 

18 byproduct of the maple industry, which is a sugar 

19 free maple sap, which was elementally pure water 

20 about ten years ago and I started leveraging this 

21 water to bring this into the bottled water 
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1 industry. And today we are the only certified 

2 organic plant source of pure water in the world 

3 through NOFA and Baystate Organics. And we're 

4 accelerating our growth by delivering our products 

5 all over the world as a trustworthy source 

6 alternative for water.

7 Next slide, please. Now, farmers 

8 harvest their maple crop by tapping maple trees 

9 and we all know this tradition goes back hundreds 

10 of years. They now are processing their maple sap 

11 with reverse osmosis and taking the sugar molecule 

12 out of the sap. And for every gallon of maple sugar 

13 that they concentrate by this by this process, they 

14 consolidate about 49 gallons of a pure water 

15 byproduct that they throw away. And this is where 

16 we come in and buy this byproduct from these family 

17 farms, advocating on their behalf to make double 

18 their income on their existing maple crop with very 

19 little extra labor.

20 Next slide, please. So from a purely 

21 analysis perspective, all water that comes from 
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1 a municipal spring, lake, aquifer, any sort of 

2 supply is highly chlorinated, highly fluoridated, 

3 highly contaminated, polyfill alkalines, uranium 

4 and radium-226. And there's no end in sight for 

5 the contamination. And this water is exempt as 

6 an ingredient in the Organic Program today and 

7 being used in all organic food and beverage 

8 products.

9 Next slide, please. So with 1 billion 

10 gallons of available tree water, we represent over 

11 a 110 family farms to date, organic certified 

12 farms, that double their money on their net income 

13 by just simply selling us these pure water by 

14 products. And this is a huge advantage for the 

15 industry, as well as the organic certification 

16 community.

17 Next slide, please. This can scale to 

18 over a trillion gallons domestically alone. And 

19 with 20,000 U.S. and Canadian maple farms 

20 processing these products, this is a huge economic 

21 win for the farms and a huge environmental win for 
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1 the groundwater supply. Next slide, please. We 

2 make lots of different products from probiotics 

3 seltzers, hard seltzers, sodas, teas for Walmart, 

4 Costco, and the like. And it's amazing the impact 

5 in the reception we've gotten from consumers with 

6 our products. Next slide, please. We've even 

7 used it to make beer with Anheuser-Busch, zero 

8 groundwater beer, plant source organic beer. 

9 Imagine that.

10 Next slide, please. So the problem is 

11 today water is the number one exempt ingredient 

12 in the NOP by volume estimated. And many products 

13 are made from chlorinated PFSA contaminated 

14 purified sources. And this exemption 

15 disadvantage is 20,000 North American farmers. 

16 All these products you see here are organic 

17 certified and 99 percent of their product does not 

18 even organic.

19 Next slide, please. And I'll wrap up 

20 with this. So I'm asking you to remove the 

21 ingredient exemption for water, allow the product 
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1 formulations to be enhanced. The purity claims 

2 for water-based organic products accelerates 

3 thousands of North American farms are advantaged. 

4 Consumer confidence and authenticity is 

5 increased. Manufacturers realized authentic 

6 claims. Groundwater is saved and you-all meet the 

7 sustainable development goals you're after and 

8 make the world a better place. So thank you for 

9 allowing me the time to share this really 

10 interesting and highly sensitive topic with you. 

11 And I welcome, I'm sure that myriad of questions 

12 you were have. Thank you.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

14 comments. Any questions from the Board? See 

15 none. We appreciate your time -- oh, Amy, go 

16 ahead.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: Adam, I just was going 

18 to say thank you for bringing this to our attention. 

19 I really appreciate it. Really interesting.

20 MR. LAZAR: Thank you very much.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 
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1 you, Adam. Appreciate your time today. Next up 

2 is Michael Hansen, and then RedElisa Mendoza, and 

3 Carol Walker. So please go ahead, Michael.

4 MR. HANSEN: Yes. Can you hear me?

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

6

7

8 MR. HANSEN: Yes, you can. All right. 

9 So my name is Michael Hansen, I'm a senior 

10 scientist at Consumer Reports, which is an 

11 independent non-profit, nonpartisan organization 

12 that works with consumers to create a fair and just 

13 marketplace. We have over six million members. 

14 My comments today are going to focus on the 

15 materials some committees excluded methods and 

16 proposal. We have been supportive of the excluded 

17 -- of the subcommittees excluded methods work which 

18 has spanned almost a decade. And we have supported 

19 all the proposals that the board has unanimously 

20 passed to date. We strongly support the present 

21 recommendation, and that's where the -- that 
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1 recommendation is for the NOP to develop a formal 

2 guidance document to include the definitions, 

3 criteria, and excluded methods tables that have 

4 been developed by previous board proposals. And 

5 we also agree with the addition and the definition 

6 for both self fusion and protoplast fusion that 

7 are in that proposal. But there's one small change 

8 that needs to be made to the definition, and that's 

9 where they refer to techniques utilizing 

10 recombinant DNA .That's old terminology from about 

11 20 years ago when basically what they were doing 

12 was moving DNA between organisms. But we now know 

13 that you can actually not only manipulate DNA, you 

14 can manipulate RNA as well. And so, rather than 

15 just use the term, Recombinant DNA technologies, 

16 the proper terminology should be, In vitro nucleic 

17 acid technologies. So in the definitions where 

18 it says, Techniques of recombinant DNA, those 

19 should be changed to, In vitro nucleic acid 

20 technologies, because it has, as I said, I would 

21 point out that with gene editing, for example, for 
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1 CRISPR, which we're actually engineering is 

2 messenger RNA, right? That there's a guide RNA. 

3 And I would also point out that in the future, 

4 they're probably going to be engineering of 

5 ribosomal RNAs and probably transfer RNAs. And 

6 so that's why we think it's important that you 

7 change the definition. And that makes it more 

8 comprehensive and it also is the definition used 

9 by Codex Alimentarius, which is a global network. 

10 And I would just point out that the Codex 

11 guidelines prevent food production, processing, 

12 marketing, and labeling of organically produced 

13 foods used this language, so it would be good. 

14 And then finally, we also support the change in 

15 the current regulation 7 CFR 205.2: Terms defined, 

16 so that the definitions of excluded methods and 

17 everything in the NOSB proposal has -- should be 

18 added to regulatory language, so that can be used 

19 at a future as a regulatory framework for the class 

20 of excluded methods, because these technologies 

21 will continue to evolve. And as I said, one day 
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1 they're probably start engineering RNAs and 

2 transfer RNAs. Thank you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

4 comments. We have a question from Dilip.

5 MEMBER NANDWANI: Again, this is not 

6 a question, just a comment and echo. This is very 

7 well presented, Michael. Really appreciate your 

8 thoughts and I agree with your comment that RNA 

9 and DNA they are absolutely nucleic acids and 

10 that's a very valid point. Thank you for your 

11 comments, again.

12 MR. HANSEN: Yes. I'd just like to 

13 quickly say that we saw this was happening, and 

14 so that's why I was on the delegation. We made 

15 sure that this definition got accepted globally 

16 at Codex because we saw that this was going to 

17 happen that one day, they would engineer these 

18 other things. So thank you.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

20 ahead.

21 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Michael for 
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1 all your work on this amazingly complicated topic. 

2 I'm just looking to the future. And usually if 

3 you have any ideas about how we can enforce and 

4 monitor new varieties that may come about using 

5 some of the genetic editing techniques that maybe 

6 are not, you know, it's not on the label, it's not 

7 necessarily disclosed in the variety description 

8 or any other place. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe 

9 that's not going to be the case, but I'm just 

10 curious what your thoughts are on that.

11 MR. HANSEN: While the -- this is 

12 instead of whether you can detect the changes and 

13 I'll say yes, if you have the before and after, 

14 you can absolutely detect those changes because 

15 even when they use gene editing like CRISPR, it 

16 doesn't make just that one edit, it makes all these 

17 other edits which actually can be detected, because 

18 it should be pointed out, people that are 

19 developing these technologies they need a way to 

20 detect it as well, so that they can stop others 

21 from quote, infringing on your intellectual 
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1 property. So they try to tell you that for 

2 example, with CRISPR, there's no way to detect it. 

3 That's just not true. If we have the before and 

4 after, it can absolutely be detected. And the 

5 companies that are developing this know this 

6 because that's why they always make sure that they 

7 can enforce their intellectual property.

8 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, that's really 

9 good to know. Thank you.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

11 questions from the Board? All right. Thank you 

12 so much for your comments, Michael.

13 MR. HANSEN: Thank you.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think we're 

15 going to be with RedElisa Mendoza and Carol Walker. 

16 I don't think we see on, please make yourself known 

17 if you are otherwise, come back. Next up will be 

18 Doug Currier, followed by Malaika Elias, and then 

19 Heather Spalding.

20 MR. CURRIER: Good afternoon. Good 

21 morning. Wherever you are. My name is Doug 
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1 Currier. I'm the technical director at the 

2 Organic Materials Review Institute, and I'm going 

3 to talk today about the recommendation on highly 

4 soluble nitrogen fertilizers. So my comments aim 

5 to provide examples of how the use of the term or 

6 the generic term nitrogen and the proposed 

7 standards revision could need added clarification, 

8 when assessing fertilizers that are coming right 

9 in, at that three to one, carbon to nitrogen ratio. 

10 As discussed in our written comments, the term 

11 nitrogen is likely most commonly understood to mean 

12 total nitrogen. Total nitrogen is the sum of 

13 ammonia -- organic nitrogen, such as amino acids, 

14 naturally occurring urea and proteins, nitrate and 

15 nitrite. Of these nitrogen species, soluble 

16 inorganic nitrogen such as ammonia, nitrate and 

17 nitrite, are those for which NOSB has documented 

18 their concern. The concern being that the use of 

19 these materials goes against the principles of 

20 organic production. Acknowledging that Soluble 

21 inorganic nitrogen is the basis of concern, could 
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1 help stakeholders understand which materials are 

2 at higher risk of violating the proposed C to N 

3 ratio. Focusing on inorganic soluble nitrogen 

4 levels can also help with dealing with materials 

5 that border at or around three to one carbon to 

6 nitrogen. Examples are included in our written 

7 comments but I'll give one now.

8 The C to N ratio of bloodmeal could 

9 border at or below three to one carbon to nitrogen 

10 based on lab reports on file and armory, when using 

11 total nitrogen as the nitrogen value. The 

12 nitrogen in bloodmeal, however, will not come 

13 anywhere near 100 percent inorganic soluble 

14 nitrogen, which suggest just using that soluble 

15 inorganic nitrogen value in the ratio is going to 

16 provide a clearer picture of the material, not a 

17 concern. Fish products and hydrolyzed soy are two 

18 other examples explored in the written comments. 

19 So the need for technical support for certain 

20 buyers and growers is an important factor to ensure 

21 successful implementation of standards revision 
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1 that addresses highly soluble nitrogen products. 

2 While I may share concerns raised by others 

3 regarding the burden placed on certifiers, 

4 growers, material review organizations to ensure 

5 materials below three to one C to N ratio are 

6 identified, and their use restricted. We believe 

7 that with clear messaging from NOSB, which answers 

8 the why behind the standards revision 

9 recommendation, combined with effective and 

10 accessible technical support outlets, it is 

11 possible to enforce the proposed standard 

12 addressing these low C to N ratio materials. Thank 

13 you.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

15 much for your comments. Any questions for Doug 

16 from the Board? Amy, please go ahead.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: Sure, Doug, thank you 

18 for your time today and providing the written 

19 comments. And I appreciate your thoughts on this 

20 solubility piece versus the carbon and nitrogen 

21 ratio. I just had a question, kind of overall 
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1 helpful to hear your perspective on components of 

2 a blended fertilizer. I know in previous OMRI 

3 comments you mentioned about isotope testing on 

4 finished products is hard to really deconstruct 

5 those ingredients and I know, OMRI, you guys, work 

6 on implementing the NOP guidance on liquid 

7 fertilizers for use. So you're doing increased 

8 level of inspections on those products that have 

9 a high component of nitrogen. So I just wanted 

10 you to maybe talk on that subject of the blended 

11 fertilizers.

12 MR. CURRIER: Yes. So we, in our 

13 review, we're getting the formulation statement, 

14 we're getting the materials that are used in the 

15 products identified. And within those 

16 formulation statement review, we can identify 

17 nitrogen fertilizers, and we can then look at 

18 whether or not those nitrogen fertilizers are below 

19 three to one carbon to nitrogen or below. The 

20 tricky part becomes how to convey our findings to 

21 the public. And one way we -- the main way we do 
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1 that is through a restriction and we could develop 

2 a restriction that conveys, you know, what we've 

3 found to -- in our review. Meaning, we could say, 

4 you know, this product formulates with a material 

5 that is below, you know, three to one carbon to 

6 nitrogen ratio. And give some way for the 

7 end-user, whether that's the certifier or the 

8 grower to know that they have to think about the 

9 product more, the fertilizer more in regards to 

10 limiting its use. So I guess, that's one thing 

11 that comes to mind in regards to using a restriction 

12 that we can convey findings in our review and 

13 blended fertilizers are very common, and we would 

14 -- I would imagine we would be able to look at that 

15 level within the blend in order to know which are 

16 materials of concern, which are not. And then 

17 restrict.

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Doug. 

19 Appreciate it.

20 MR. CURRIER: Sure.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 
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1 comments, Doug. Oh, Dilip has a question.

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Oh, very quick. 

3 Doug, I am a new member, so please bear with me 

4 if I'm just trying to understand. Can you tell 

5 us a little bit about how you enlist a new product 

6 or material in OMRI list. The reason I'm asking 

7 is let's say humic acid and folic acid, they are 

8 two example I wanted to ask you. There are tons 

9 of, you know, companies they're also making the 

10 same product, same name, they are manufacturing 

11 or processing, whatever you want to call is the 

12 same. So I'm just wondering, some humic acids are 

13 accepted and they're listed in OMRI and some they 

14 are not. So can you tell us a little bit about 

15 that. How do you make this -- you know, the 

16 distinction that this has to be listed on the 

17 national list and this, you know, we cannot accept 

18 that? Thank you in advance.

19 MR. CURRIER: Yes. So really quickly, 

20 you know, we go through a thorough review, that 

21 includes, you know, the formulation statement 
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1 review, table review. We're looking at 

2 manufacturing processes, lab analysis, if needed 

3 in some cases, with humic and folic acids, you know, 

4 there's, you know, a synthetic allowance at 601 

5 for humic acid extracts. You know, we are looking 

6 at the extract in use, looking for fortification 

7 potential. And so there's a variety of ways that 

8 we could get to a recommendation to allow versus 

9 prohibit. One would end up on the public list, 

10 one wouldn't so you know, those are just some of 

11 the really basic kind of approaches that we use 

12 and could end up with a decision that seemingly 

13 is in conflict because it's, you know, seemingly 

14 the same material. But yes, something in there's 

15 going to be driving us towards a prohibited 

16 decision.

17 MEMBER NANDWANI: This comes from the 

18 NOSB Board recommendation to you also. So that 

19 also keep in consideration or you have your own 

20 methods and process as you just explained?

21 MR. CURRIER: Yes, we would certainly 
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1 like to that NOSB discussion to kind of inform our 

2 thinking about, you know, our review approach. 

3 Ultimately, you know, whatever's published in the 

4 regulation is what we're basing our standards off 

5 of.

6 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you. This is 

7 helpful, I appreciate that.

8 MR. CURRIER: Absolutely.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you again, 

10 Doug.

11 MR. CURRIER: Absolutely. Thanks.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Moving on, we'll 

13 have Malaika Elias, followed by Heather Spalding, 

14 and then Oren Holle.

15 MS. ELIAS: Can you hear me?

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

17

18 MS. ELIAS: Hi. My name is Malaika 

19 Elias. I'm a food and technology campaigner, 

20 Friends of the Earth. I just want to say thank 

21 you for the opportunity to provide comment on 
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1 materials subcommittee proposal on excluded 

2 methods. Friends of the Earth supports 

3 recommendations at National Organic Coalition, not 

4 seen to improve its resource, excuse me, to improve 

5 its response NOSB recommendations. In addition, 

6 Friends of the Earth would like to strongly urge 

7 the materials subcommittee to include a few more 

8 techniques to the excluded methods list. Cell 

9 fusion and protoplast fusion, and that these 

10 techniques be defined in reference to the in vitro 

11 nucleic acid techniques. We really wanted to 

12 ensure that we have an organics certification which 

13 truly addresses emerging biotechnologies and new 

14 techniques being applied to agriculture. In 

15 November of 2016 the NOSB voted unanimously to 

16 update U.S. organic standards to exclude 

17 ingredients derived from the next generation of 

18 genetic engineering and gene editing. As the NOSB 

19 has established, these new genetic engineering 

20 techniques are incompatible with organic and 

21 sustainable agriculture. Currently the list of 
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1 techniques that are excluded, methods is 

2 incomplete and currently NOSB's excluded methods 

3 list makes reference to recombinant DNA 

4 technologies, and it should be updated to use in 

5 vitro nucleic acid technologies, which is 

6 consistent with NOSB's other definitions used to 

7 determine excluded methods and includes more 

8 specific techniques such as RNA and recombinant 

9 DNA. So in conclusion, Friends of the Earth 

10 supports the improvements of updates to the Organic 

11 Standards which will help preserve the integrity 

12 of organic classification. And we strongly urge 

13 the NOSB to continue to exclude new gene editing 

14 and synthetic biology techniques from organic by 

15 updating the list of excluded techniques to include 

16 the additional genetic engineering techniques. 

17 Thank you.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

19 much for your comments today. Any questions from 

20 the Board?

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 
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1 you so much again. Moving along, we'll next have 

2 Heather Spalding, followed by Oren Holle, and then 

3 Marie Burcham. So Heather, please go ahead.

4 MS. SPALDING: Thank you so much. 

5 Good afternoon. I'm Heather Spalding, deputy 

6 director of the Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners 

7 Association, MOFGA. We're a broad-based 

8 community and we're working to create a food system 

9 that's healthy and fair for all. We started 

10 certifying in 1972 with 27 farms and we now certify 

11 more than 500 farms and processing facilities that 

12 presenting approximately 65,000 acres of farmland. 

13 And we're also a member of the National Organic 

14 Coalition, NOC. We submitted more detailed 

15 written comments as has NOC. But today I just 

16 wanted to talk about two things.

17 First, I wanted to thank the crop 

18 subcommittee for the great work on the ammonia 

19 extracts petition and as you heard from our crop 

20 specialist, Caleb Goossen, who spoke a little 

21 earlier, we strongly support the proposal to 
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1 restrict the use of highly soluble nitrogen 

2 fertilizers. The mantra feed the soil, not the 

3 plant guides our work and we must be vigilant in 

4 protecting the foundational principles of organic 

5 farming as more and more natural sources of high 

6 nitrogen fertilizers could allow farmers to 

7 sidestep the basic requirements set out in section 

8 205-203 of the NOP Standards. The carbon to 

9 nitrogen ratio is clear and addresses the issues 

10 well and certifiers can enforce it with ease. Our 

11 certification staff members indicate that the math 

12 is manageable, that Co-op Extension has 

13 recommended values for crop nitrogen needs and all 

14 fertilizer manufacturers can easily supply MROs 

15 with an analysis that includes the carbon to 

16 nitrogen ratio. And so with a simple guidance 

17 document from the NOP certifiers could easily 

18 verify the restrictions. When we've done this, 

19 a similar verification for Chilean nitrate in the 

20 NOP Standards. And we do acknowledge that this 

21 would create some additional work for certifiers, 
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1 but we feel that we should be happy to accept that 

2 additional effort in order to protect organic 

3 principles.

4 The second thing I wanted to highlight 

5 is the escalating problem of farmland 

6 contamination from sludge containing per and 

7 polyfluoro substances, PFOS. This isn't on your 

8 workload, but I just really wanted to be sure 

9 everyone is aware of what's happening up here in 

10 Maine. Farmers are facing the loss of their 

11 farmland, their products, their businesses, and 

12 sometimes great uncertainty about their health 

13 because of extensive contamination from PFOS. 

14 You've probably heard a lot about it. Maine is 

15 sort of in the spot light right now with farmland 

16 contamination and efforts that the state is taking 

17 to address it. We just this week, the legislature

18 has passed a ban on spreading sludge. And also 

19 is sunsetting pesticides that contain them . I 

20 know my time is up, but I wanted to just post in 

21 the chat a link to an upcoming webinar because I 
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1 noticed this is coming to a neighborhood near you 

2 soon. And I think people will really want to know 

3 about this and I hope the NOSB will call for 

4 coordinated and aggressive action to deal with PFOS 

5 at the federal level. So thank you so much.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

7 for your comments. Yes, that's huge. And I 

8 really appreciate you bringing that to our 

9 attention today. Any questions from the Board? 

10 Brian, please go ahead.

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. Thanks, 

12 Heather and this PFOS things is definitely a big 

13 deal. I'm just really quickly, are there issues 

14 with accuracy and testing at the parts per billion 

15 or parts per trillion level, with PFOS, has that 

16 come up or is that sort of well understood?

17 MS. SPALDING: I can't answer that 

18 question. I do know that, you know, just that it 

19 is so toxic at the parts per billion, parts per 

20 trillion level is calling much more attention to 

21 this. There is, I guess you would say lowering 
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1 levels of screening levels and threshold levels 

2 that are being recommended for contamination all 

3 the time. So Maine has set some very strict levels 

4 of maximum contamination levels of water. And 

5 very much stricter than EPA. But as more and more 

6 information is coming to light, the 

7 recommendations are that we should probably be 

8 lowering them even further. So I don't know the 

9 specifics about how difficult or how much integrity 

10 there is, I guess if that's what you're asking about 

11 the put the practices for detecting these, but 

12 that's -- there's just needs to be so much more 

13 research, so many more public resources available 

14 to set thresholds for, you know, how PFOS moves 

15 through the soil and the water, how it's taken up 

16 in all different crops, where it is in the different 

17 parts of crops. Yes, there's just a huge need for 

18 this. And, you know, we've been kind of making 

19 it up as we go along in Maine, but we know that 

20 there -- that federal action is really what we need.

21 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great. Thank you.
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1 MS. SPALDING: Thank you.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

3 questions from the Board? I'd be really 

4 interested to hear if you have any more specific 

5 requests from work that the Board could request 

6 to get into work agenda or work, just as, you know, 

7 the leadership voice of the community that we can 

8 be doing on this issue of PFOS contamination?

9 MS. SPALDING: I do. I have -- we're 

10 actually developing sort of a work plan for various 

11 agencies in the federal government. So we've been 

12 reaching out to our congressional delegation, 

13 Maine's congressional delegation. All of the 

14 members have submitted a letter to Secretary 

15 Vilsack calling for certain things that can be done 

16 with USDA. And I would be happy to share that 

17 document with you if you haven't seen that. We're 

18 also advocating for action, you know, at FDA, at 

19 EPA, at, you know, there are many different federal 

20 agencies that can be doing a lot to address the 

21 problem of PFOS. I could -- I know you're like 
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1 really stressed for -- stretched for time, but I 

2 could -- what could I do?

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We could happily 

4 follow up. I just want to put that out. I think 

5 this is something that is very needing of our 

6 attention. So thank you for your -- bringing it 

7 today.

8 MS. SPALDING: Yes. I appreciate 

9 that, too. And I guess, you know, the key things 

10 that we really are feeling are so difficult, are 

11 just like awareness for farmers about when it's 

12 safe or when it's no longer safe to even be farming 

13 their land because there are several farmers in 

14 Maine who basically have had to just pull all their 

15 products from the market. They're waiting, 

16 they're uncertain, their body burden levels are 

17 higher than factory workers at a DuPont plant. 

18 You know, their children's body burden levels are 

19 extremely high too and we just don't have the data 

20 to show like what is an acceptable level, what is 

21 a permissible level of PFOS contamination in 
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1 various different crops. So we really need that.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Well, 

3 please stay in touch. Yes.

4 MS. SPALDING: Thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: This is important

6 and thank you for bringing it today. Next up, we 

7 have Oren Holle, followed by Marie Burcham, and 

8 then Bryce Irlbeck. So Oren, if you're there, 

9 please go ahead.

10 MR. HOLLE: Yes, I'm with you at this 

11 point.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. The 

13 floor is yours.

14 MR. HOLLE: You can hear me okay?

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can, yes.

16 MR. HOLLE: Okay. I'm Oren Holle. 

17 I'm an organic grain producer in Kansas, I'm 

18 president of the Organic Farmers Agency For 

19 Relationship Marketing, better known as OFARM. 

20 We appreciate the opportunity to address the 

21 members with the NOSB. We especially want to thank 
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1 you for the opportunity for virtual participation. 

2 OFARM in a nutshell coordinates marketing 

3 programs with producer co-operative marketing 

4 groups. My comments today will be of a general 

5 nature and we want a first of all commend the 

6 National Organic Standards Board for their 

7 commitment to the task keeping the Organic Program 

8 strong and to advocate for the needs of the organic 

9 operations. Finding individuals, particularly 

10 producers who are running to serve in that capacity 

11 is a challenge. As we search for candidates, our 

12 occasions in the past for volunteers to serve, 

13 comments have been made to more adequately, 

14 enumerate those who accept that obligation. While 

15 we don't want these positions to become 

16 career-enhancing opportunities, it seems logical 

17 that the NOSB could convene a session with current 

18 and past NOSB members to assess an established 

19 protocol for reimbursement for actual expenses 

20 incurred while they need to take the time away from 

21 their obligations to their current roles in 
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1 organic.

2

3 The Board is also to be commended for 

4 keeping the pressure on to finally bring the origin 

5 of livestock road to fruition. The apparent 

6 multi-year time lag and this process points to a 

7 more fundamental issue. There's obviously still 

8 a disconnect in the basic relationship between the 

9 NOSB and the NOP. Issues are addressed, some rules 

10 are proposed, and it just gets tabled in a 

11 bureaucratic process. Maybe it's time for the 

12 NOSB to convene a sit-down with the NOP and the 

13 AG secretary to re-establish the purpose of the 

14 NOSB to properly interpret the basics of the 

15 Organic Foods Production Act. From a common sense 

16 perspective, it seems that many of the issues that 

17 have gone and may in the future gone to rule making 

18 could be solved if we just get back to the basics 

19 of proper interpretation of the Organic Foods 

20 Production Act. As we understand it, the idea is 

21 the fundamental purpose of the NOSB. Considering 
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1 the debate on the limitations of synthetic 

2 nitrogens, here's how it plays out in a real-world 

3 of transition to organic grain production. The 

4 larger the operation, the more incentive there is 

5 to follow the mantra of using all farm inputs to 

6 enhance production outcomes. Relaxing any 

7 processes to increase the usage of questionable 

8 inputs results in a slippery slope that enhances 

9 the model of production that non organic has 

10 followed way too long. The very existence of the 

11 capo-type operations in organic bears witness to 

12 the way organic principles can be bent to fit their 

13 production model. Corporate and sometimes large 

14 private interest continuously promote transition 

15 of large-scale production units which are the most 

16 likely to pursue the shortcuts to basic 

17 soil-building principals by using more all farm 

18 inputs including questionable nitrogen sources. 

19 Is my time up already?

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It is. I'll ask 

21 you a question to just finish. If you if you can 
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1 finish quickly.

2 MR. HOLLE: I would just add one final 

3 thought, the strengthening of the organic 

4 enforcement rule must be implemented sooner rather 

5 than later. We appreciate the opportunities for 

6 input to that rule of development process, and its 

7 benefits are already apparent. We ask the NOSB 

8 to once again, keep up the pressure to bring this 

9 rule to fruition.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Thank 

11 you for your comments today. Do we have any 

12 questions from the board for Oren? I have a 

13 question for you, Oren. As we look to the growth 

14 of the industry, I asked the question yesterday, 

15 you know, how do we grow the industry to 50 percent 

16 of food in America. But In looking at how organic 

17 has been an exceptional example of a grassroots 

18 growth with a lot of small farmers, a lot of all 

19 size farmers engaging in the certification and 

20 building this industry. I hear your concerns 

21 about larger operations getting into organic. 
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1 What would you say is the key to getting more 

2 smaller operations? All sizes of the farmers to 

3 see organic as a viable path for themselves and 

4 to enhance the transition and increase the 

5 transition of farmers to organic?

6

7 MR. HOLLE: Well, if you're asking 

8 specifically about, you know, the area that I'm 

9 familiar with and that would be among the grain 

10 farmers. You know, we see them transitioning in 

11 and out. And much of that have been due to, you 

12 know, the fluctuations in the market potential. 

13 You know, we see organic prices dropping and 

14 they're gone back to conventional again. We see, 

15 you know, organic having from great opportunity 

16 like they're all right now, the transition within 

17 someone floor because the conventional markets are 

18 pretty well established too right now. But I think 

19 the basic premises is that one of the questions 

20 is there, okay. We're looking forward to the 

21 opportunity of the organic premiums and all the 
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1 economic revenue that can be generated in the 

2 transition. But they're just not sure that it has 

3 any longevity as if there were, you know, some 

4 degree of assurance that there would be a 

5 stabilizing in that market process that would be 

6 a big asset. In addition to that, I would say that 

7 in the long-term, it's still a matter of education, 

8 particularly right now with a high cost of the 

9 inputs particularly and all the fertilizers. And 

10 of course, chemicals had gone sky high too. 

11 They're certainly, you know, a number of them are 

12 looking that direction. But there again, you 

13 know, if the economics are there and there's some 

14 reasonable assurance that's going to be set 

15 stability, you know, that certainly would help 

16 because most of them are still going to have to 

17 sit down with their banker and convince them that 

18 the transition is going to be, you know, a viable 

19 alternative. Does that answer your question?

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think so, yes. 

21 Thank you very much. I appreciate your time today 
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1 and your comments. All right. Next up, we have 

2 Marie Burcham, followed by Bryce Irlbeck, and then 

3 Justin Raikes.

4 MS. BURCHAM: Can you hear me okay?

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Yes, 

6 please go ahead.

7

8 MS. BURCHAM: All right. Thank you. 

9 Good afternoon, members of NOSB and NOP, and my 

10 name is Marie Burcham, and I am the policy director 

11 for The Cornucopia Institute. Our planet is 

12 experiencing extreme stress due to climate change, 

13 potentially climate disaster that will 

14 fundamentally alter how we relate to our 

15 environment. Some of this change is caused by the 

16 way we farm. Despite this reality, the USDA seems 

17 bent on staying the course with their general 

18 support of chemically intensive farming. The NOSB 

19 has asked other commenters what it would take to 

20 increase organic share of the market to 50 percent 

21 or above. What it would take is broad recognition 
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1 that commercial agriculture, as we know it, is a 

2 failure on all counts. It is more expensive, more 

3 dangerous, less socially beneficial, unless 

4 nutritious and favorable food is produced. A 

5 growing body of scientific research shows that farm 

6 assistance designed or managed according to 

7 agroecological principles can meet food needs of 

8 our society while also addressing other serious 

9 concerns. To expand our back marketplace, we need 

10 to improve integrity and transparency throughout 

11 the agricultural system. The whole organic system 

12 must connect to continuous improvement, and we need 

13 an organic label to stand for true conservation 

14 agriculture as an example for how all farming 

15 should be.

16 The organic marketplace has to solve 

17 its existing problems and strive to do better for 

18 tomorrow. Of particular concern are issues of 

19 consistency, role improvements, and transparency 

20 information. For example, a certifier survey on 

21 policies for a three-year transition case shows 
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1 serious inconsistencies. These inconsistencies 

2 encouraged bad actors to cheat the system, pushing 

3 industry as a whole away from the goal of continuous 

4 improvement. We support technical assistance for 

5 NOSB knowing these volunteer roles are heavy lift. 

6 Part of that technical support should include 

7 expertise and guidance on most recent research, 

8 including that presented by public commenters. 

9 Additionally, we recognize that the NOSB cannot 

10 consider economics and evaluating substances, 

11 however the NOP should not let economic factors 

12 drive decision-making when there are concerns of 

13 environmental or human health. Focusing on 

14 staying true to principles of conservation 

15 agriculture and maintaining continuous 

16 improvement is critical to help the organic 

17 marketplace grow.

18 Finally, we are very concerned about 

19 the additions to the PPM that may have the effect 

20 of limiting free speech in a federal public forum. 

21 The first to personal tax is subjective. 
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1 Sometimes comments that are subjective might 

2 impugn the character are factual, and free speech 

3 protects these kinds of remarks. There are real 

4 questions about whether the NOSB can restrict 

5 commenters in this manner and we would like to see 

6 the USDA's attorneys address these concerns as soon 

7 as possible. Thank you very much and welcome to 

8 the new members. I hope your time serving on the 

9 Board is productive and helpful.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

11 comments. Any questions from the Board? Marie, 

12 as a -- if I were an organic consumer, what would 

13 you say to me as the reason that I should buy organic 

14 food? What is going well in our industry?

15 MS. BURCHAM: There's a lot going well, 

16 I believe. The research that's going on right now 

17 is really showing that organic food is -- will lower 

18 the dietary risk of exposure to pesticides. It 

19 also is showing that practices that are common in 

20 organic agriculture, such as cover cropping and 

21 crop rotation and things like that, are increasing, 
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1 not just the carbon sequestration, but resilience 

2 of the food system. So these farms are producing 

3 the same if not better yields in times of climate 

4 stress. And I think especially with the pandemic, 

5 consumers are more aware than ever how fragile our 

6 food systems are. So that is an important piece 

7 as well. And these same practices that are 

8 beneficial for climate health are also showing to 

9 increase, especially in micronutrients in food. 

10 There's a lot of interesting research and data 

11 collection going on surrounding that. And from 

12 the Bionutrient Research Institute, I'm really 

13 looking for it to them publishing more of that going 

14 forward. So I think organic food really is the 

15 answer, not just for the consumer who can afford 

16 it, but really for transforming our entire food 

17 system and being an example, moving forward and 

18 it obviously takes a lot of consumer education and 

19 there's a lot of anti-organic propaganda out there 

20 as well that we need to fight against continuously 

21 as a movement. But as time goes on, the research 
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1 just gets better and there's so much more we can 

2 speak to that is really amazing and really 

3 recommends what we're doing here to the rest of 

4 the world and to consumers too.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

6 for those comments. I appreciate your time today.

7 MS. BURCHAM: Yes. Thank you.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

9 Bryce Irlbeck, followed by Justin Raikes, and then 

10 Kris Klokkenga. And Steve Ela always did a great 

11 job reminding folks that I -- the chair will be 

12 an equal opportunity butcher of names. So I have 

13 not said that, but I do apologize if I've gotten 

14 your name wrong. Bryce, please go ahead.

15

16 MR. IRLBECK: Yes. Thank you. First 

17 I want to thank the Board, I know how much volunteer 

18 time you've put in and so, I thank you for that 

19 and all that you do. And so my name is Bryce 

20 Irlbeck, I am a fairly large organic farmer in 

21 West-central Iowa. I do consulting on about 
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1 80,000 acres of organic throughout the U.S. And 

2 so I want to talk about two things today. The first 

3 is the highly soluble ammonium nitrogen product, 

4 and then the import markets and the organic 

5 certification standards and how we see we can 

6 improve them. And I wasn't planning on talking 

7 about the soluble nitrogen product, but I saw 

8 comments from a representative in my state, and 

9 I thought it very, very important to make sure in 

10 my feelings that I was never more clear that people 

11 represented us not in fact don't actually represent 

12 us. I want to let you know that I highly support 

13 your position at the Board and that contrary to 

14 what was said in the comments for me as a farmer 

15 it does not provide organic benefits specifically 

16 in our state, a lot of these products are being 

17 shipped out of the state, and significantly 

18 increasing our cost of production, by taking those 

19 products off the market and allowing big ag 

20 businesses to corner the vital nutrient market that 

21 we have to grow and expand and be fruitful and 
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1 organic. And I'll bring an example of this. I'll 

2 keep it short, but the prohibition of this nitrogen 

3 from the words of this comment was limit access 

4 to affordable fertilizer for organic farmers and 

5 reduce production of organic products and that 

6 couldn't be more opposite on my farm, if you'd come 

7 out here, I can show you real life how that is the 

8 opposite. Right now, we can't get enough chicken 

9 manure. It's being hoarded. It's not available 

10 to us. It's being kept by some of these large 

11 companies. And it's been a very difficult year 

12 on that, so I can show you personally on my own 

13 farm. Now, enough of that. I thought it was 

14 important to bring that to the Board's attention 

15 to talk through it from an organic farmer's point 

16 of view actually in Iowa.

17 Now let's go to the import markets. 

18 I think one of the things that I've heard in the 

19 last couple talks that resonating. How do you 

20 increase organic production? And I think one of 

21 the things that I see in organic farms as the 
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1 volatility of organic and it's created through 

2 imports that we bring in at cheaper prices and 

3 production. And you could argue back-and-forth 

4 that they're organic or not. We all have our views 

5 and I think you have a good idea of what they are. 

6 But during the low periods it forces farmers out 

7 because they import lower priced grain. Right now 

8 we're in a good period of organic production 

9 because we have higher grain than needs to be for 

10 the end-users meaning that the dairies, the food 

11 companies. We have $40, 45 soy beans. You know, 

12 it's great for me, but I know the bottom side of 

13 this is going to be very painful and it's very 

14 painful for those injuries right now. If we could 

15 find an equilibrium in the middle by bringing in 

16 more viable rules to make sure that we do have 

17 organic integrity and stabilize the market. I 

18 think it's one of the biggest things to increase 

19 the production of organic. And we could do that 

20 through a few aspects of adding acres to the organic 

21 certificate and centralizing crop sales so we 
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1 know what is available on each farm. It'd have 

2 a 2022 database with that kind of information and 

3 technology we have.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

5 much for all of those comments, that was a lot, 

6 so thank you so much. Brian has a question for 

7 you.

8 MEMBER CALDWELL: So I just want to let 

9 you we're running out of time there and I just 

10 wondered if there were any vital other comments 

11 that you wanted to make.

12 MR. IRLBECK: Yes. So along with the 

13 imports coming in and out of fluctuating the market 

14 so much that we don't ever create a sustainable 

15 environments. We also import a lot of 

16 insignificant grains. That seem insignificant if 

17 you look at face value, the wheat, the barley, the 

18 small grains that really make rotations grow on 

19 the farm to be successful in organic, at least in 

20 the Midwest, are not viable in our region. So 

21 you'll see a lot of farmers just corn, soy beans, 
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1 corn, soy beans, which is not a viable long-term 

2 rotation because they can't financially or 

3 sustainably fit the small grains in if we import 

4 them.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

6 ahead.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Bryce, just a 

8 quick question. Thanks for your time today. It 

9 sounds like you work with a lot of transitioning 

10 farmers and organic farmers in general. What 

11 would you say are the top three barriers to 

12 expanding organic production?

13 MR. IRLBECK: Yes, so I think the top 

14 one's instability. I mean, it looks really good 

15 right now. But when it drives back down to $6, 

16 7 corn, it's really hard to compete. So finding 

17 that stability and then the education part of it, 

18 of understanding the certification process and 

19 really getting it so it's one process, not 100 

20 different processes each make their own kind of 

21 rules. Doesn't have to be exactly the same, but 
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1 keeping that across the board at the same and then 

2 education. The second one, the certification kind 

3 of lining that out a little better than it is today 

4 where each one makes their own rules, per se in 

5 the fast lane.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Thanks.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

8 questions from the Board? I have a quick question 

9 for you, Bryce. In looking at this kind of 

10 whiplash market that we're seeing where we have 

11 really high prices, really low crops. Do you have 

12 any take on farmers trying to organize in a way 

13 that stabilizes the supply chains. We've heard 

14 it from two of the folks from OFARM, which is a 

15 group of co-operative marketing organizations. 

16 Your take on co-ops, your take on how do we 

17 stabilize this to help it grow? So that the end 

18 buyers have a consistent supply. So that farmers 

19 can realize a consistent price and we get away from 

20 these extremes.

21 MR. IRLBECK: Yes. You know, for me, 
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1 co-ops are hard. I always believed if you can get 

2 two farmers to agree, you can rule the world. No 

3 two farmers agree usually in most circumstances. 

4 So I think it really comes down to the presentation 

5 or the talk that I had is it's really enforcing 

6 the integrity of organic because the production 

7 that was coming across is, well, previous three 

8 years at $4 or 5 or 6 and we see these people pop 

9 up when countries shut down, the other country pops 

10 up and comes organic. It's just very hard to 

11 believe that's organic and they're producing under 

12 the same standards, the same living, the same type 

13 of stuff that we're doing in the U.S. that you saw 

14 a lot of people drop out. So I think it's really

15 standardizing the rules, figure out how to get that 

16 sustainability.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I appreciate that. 

18 I've asked this question to some other farmers, 

19 but I'm always interested. What is your crop 

20 rotation and how do you feed the soil? And do you 

21 try to grow the most profitable crop every year 
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1 on all acres?

2 MR. IRLBECK: Yes. So I am different 

3 than most organic farmers. Our crop rotation is 

4 three to four years of alfalfa, one year of corn. 

5 It's -- so we're growing 50 to 75 percent of our 

6 nitrogen through those three years, and taking up 

7 a vast majority of our weed control. Now this is 

8 not the most profitable rotation if you put it in 

9 itself, but with the data and what we're seeing 

10 flow in through our system, long-term, it is the 

11 most profitable rotation. If you've taken all the 

12 external factors of failures and successes, that 

13 go on corn, soy bean and those type of rotations, 

14 and input costs and labor and equipment and all 

15 that type of stuff. We've settled and I've tried 

16 every rotation I think under the sun, 34 years of 

17 alfalfa growing and nitrogen to take care of our 

18 weeds and one year of corn, we might do a little 

19 bean here and there, but not much, we're just kind 

20 of figuring them out now, so --

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Thank you 
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1 so much. Kim, please go ahead.

2 MEMBER HUSEMAN: And I'll be quick. 

3 Sorry. Bryce, thank you so much for your comments 

4 today. I'm just curious. I know we look at 

5 different ways to try to understand the market 

6 dynamics from a pricing structure. But does any 

7 of your farming practices utilize any of the 

8 conventional pricing mechanisms in order to find 

9 price discovery for your organic grains?

10 MR. IRLBECK: You'll -- and 

11 specifically greens, no. It's a true markets. I 

12 call up and they bid what I'm willing to accept. 

13 So it's one of those true markets that doesn't 

14 have the outside influences. I think the better 

15 thing is the influence do -- to be fair I do have 

16 some connections to the conventional market, but 

17 the grain prices, I think have more to higher 

18 convectional grain prices more people jump out of 

19 organic when we see higher organic prices less 

20 people around the world want to for lack of better 

21 word, fake organic in those other countries because 
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1 if they're selling $7 conventional corn, why do 

2 it for $10 and go through the whole process.

3 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

5 Bryce. Always appreciate hearing from you and 

6 getting that crop farmer perspective. So thanks 

7 for taking the time today.

8 MR. IRLBECK: Thank you, everyone.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

10 Justin Raikes, followed by Kris Klokkenga, and then 

11 Lori Stern. So Justin, if you're on, please go 

12 ahead.

13

14 MR. RAIKES: Yes. Thank you. I'm a 

15 fifth generation farmer from Easter Nebraska, 

16 we've been in the same spots since about 1900. 

17 We raise grains, organic grains and forages and 

18 are continuing to transition our land base towards 

19 organic. We also raise and sell our own American 

20 Wagyu beef and are trying to grow and continue to 

21 sell our cover crops, specifically in organic 
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1 space. And, you know, organic is what allowed me 

2 to come back into the operations. So thank you 

3 to the Board members. As Bryce said and I know, 

4 it's a lot of work, but appreciate what you guys 

5 are doing because it is creating real opportunity. 

6 So I wanted to add two comments to his. I agree 

7 with everything he said, and just in addition, with 

8 respect to integrity, both domestic and imported. 

9 You know, one of the things I want to point out 

10 is one of the benefits of organic system is the 

11 ability to offer, you know, really good paying 

12 benefits to our entire team. We strive to do that 

13 and create new opportunities to find new ways to 

14 increase paid benefits. A big concern of ours 

15 going forward is we consider this integrity 

16 question is whether we're competing on a level 

17 playing field. And with respect to wages, health 

18 and safety standards and you know, that's 

19 particularly to imports, but it also kind of plays 

20 into fraudulent domestic production as well, 

21 because obviously somebody is just committing 
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1 fraud domestically doesn't have the same 

2 incentives that we do. So we're trying to build 

3 this, not just for ourselves, but for our entire 

4 team and our entire community in the long run and 

5 then, you know, it's great that we have the 

6 opportunity to do that, and we are very interested 

7 in the integrity issue just to, you know, continue 

8 to allow that to occur.

9 The second thing I wanted to point out 

10 with respect to this issue is what we've noticed 

11 on the part of end-users are particularly 

12 merchandisers and market makers. A real 

13 reluctance or unwillingness to challenge the 

14 validity of whether it's less than robust imports 

15 or whether it's suspect domestic. The market 

16 incentives just don't seem to be there for the 

17 end-users to really look hard at where stuff is 

18 coming from. So and I punctuate that with a direct 

19 quote, I will not include attribution on the quote, 

20 but a notable organic end-user has made the comment 

21 that they would rather pay growers in India, you 
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1 know, $1 to 2 dollars a bushel for this particular 

2 product that's worth quite a bit more here than 

3 the deal with farmers domestically in the United 

4 States. And so that's the attitude that's out 

5 there. And that's why we really encourage the 

6 Board to pursue true parity standards and increase 

7 enforcement. Thank you.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

9 much for your comments today. Any questions from 

10 the board for Justin? Yes. Logan has one.

11 MEMBER PETREY: Hi. It's not a 

12 question, but, Justin, it's been many years, but 

13 it's good to see you, from the old Generation Farms 

14 group, but anyways glad you're into organics, 

15 that's awesome. Justin definitely helped my 

16 operation get into organic so much appreciation 

17 there. But anyway, good luck with everything.

18 MR. RAIKES: Thanks, Logan.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Logan. 

20 Amy, please go ahead.

21 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Justin, thanks 
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1 for your time today. Fellow Nebraskan, I really 

2 appreciate your participation here and sharing 

3 insight on your operation, on our work agenda for 

4 that TACS committee is just proposing to have acres 

5 on certificates to begin that more 

6 transparent-type conversation that growers, 

7 inspectors, certifiers, and those end-users can 

8 start having. What are your thoughts with that 

9 piece? Do you think that will be helpful and do 

10 you think it would cause any undue burdens?

11 MR. RAIKES: Fully support. Hard for 

12 me to think of a downside. You know, I'm sure that 

13 we could get tripped up on something silly, but 

14 in general, I think it's got to be the right 

15 direction.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

17 question, Amy. Thank you, Justin, for your 

18 comments today. One quick question for you, 

19 Justin, that I had is, when you're thinking about 

20 growing organic, you talked a lot about your --

21 the viability of your business, being quite good, 
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1 you're able to offer a bright spot in your community 

2 as far as a viable business. What can the Board 

3 do and how do we help farmers like you realize more 

4 opportunities? How do we grow this thing that is 

5 so valuable? And one sort of other question to 

6 that is, when we look at resiliency in American 

7 agriculture, do you see organic as a more resilient 

8 system? And do you see it as something that is 

9 the future of your community?

10 MR. RAIKES: Big questions. First I 

11 agree with Bryce's comments that I think the 

12 integrity piece is a big deal, the ability to grow 

13 small grains, the ability to mix up rotation, you 

14 know, in our neck of the woods is a deal because, 

15 you know, we might see more people coming in if 

16 there were more options, you know, corn, soy beans 

17 in this part of the world's what people know. But, 

18 you know, having more flexibility and rotation is 

19 a big deal. That's one of the reasons why, you 

20 know, we're interest in trying to continue to grow 

21 and increase the cover crop seed base because 
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1 that's, you know, that's an end-user market. But 

2 I think our biggest interest is trying to see, you 

3 know, more end-users come in. So we want to see 

4 more visible end-users in more geographies as well. 

5 We have that's a big wall and the integrity stuff 

6 that we talked about, you know, that helps. But 

7 I think people see it at the grocery store, they 

8 see the end-users that have connection to the 

9 products and where it's going. That's all 

10 positive in that house. I'm sorry, I forgot your 

11 second question.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, just when we 

13 look at resiliency in real communities, what do 

14 you see as the relationship between building a 

15 resilient role in America in organics?

16

17 MR. RAIKES: 100 percent. You know, 

18 I do completely agree. In fact I recently got in 

19 an argument with university extension folks close 

20 to me because I don't I don't feel like university 

21 support is very good for what we're trying to do. 
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1 And my points of them is look, I needed, you know, 

2 good candidates. I need the pipeline of kids 

3 coming out of universities that, that we can train 

4 in because we have so many bolt-on opportunities 

5 to what we're doing that we can't pursue or it 

6 doesn't make sense for us to pursue. There's so 

7 many other things that you can plug into the system, 

8 from a soil all standpoint for rotation standpoint

9 from wherever else, whether that's running, you 

10 know, groups of chickens in parallel for bug 

11 control or bolt on grazing opportunities for other 

12 businesses. There's a lot of other things we can 

13 do. And you know, fundamentally that's creating 

14 jobs. It's bringing exactly what we were talking 

15 about earlier. You know, we're trying to create 

16 good opportunities for people and, you know, 

17 fortunately, so far, we've been able to do that. 

18 We want to continue that runway. So we don't --

19 we can't manage effectively, every single 

20 opportunity that might come our way. And it's 

21 disappointing to see them have to kind of sail away 
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1 because you can't go after them. We don't have 

2 enough people or we don't have enough people just 

3 to plug into our operation even if they're not 

4 working for us in some way that they can bolt on 

5 and go. So 100 percent, I'm all the way on that.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

7 Opportunities sound bound list. So appreciate 

8 that. We need to add some fuel to this fire. 

9 Thank you for your time today and your comments. 

10 New up we've got Kris Klokkenga, and apologies 

11 if I'm saying that wrong. So Chris, please go 

12 ahead.

13 MS. ARSENAULT: Don't think Kris is 

14 with us. I haven't --

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right moving 

16 on then to Lori Stern. Lori, please go ahead.

17 MS. STERN: All right. I'm here 

18 somewhere.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

20 you.

21

22
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1 MS. STERN: So thank you for the 

2 opportunity to speak. I'm Lori Stern, Executive 

3 Director at the Midwest Organic & Sustainable 

4 Education Service, also known as MOSES. Like 

5 other speakers, I would like to send my 

6 appreciation for all of the members of the NOSB 

7 especially the farmer members and in particular 

8 new member Liz Graznak, who was our 2020 farmer 

9 of the year. So again, congratulations to Liz. 

10 I want to use my time today to speak generally 

11 about the organic program and farmer access to a 

12 certification program with integrity. From 

13 previous comments, I know we are all committed to 

14 increasing organic products. However, the goals 

15 of organic or more than success in the marketplace. 

16 Organic is a system that relies on diversity to 

17 build healthy soils and vibrant communities. 

18 There are farmers who face barriers to 

19 certification, but live the values and intent of 

20 true organic. For these farmers and other small, 

21 medium-size farmers already certified it is 
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1 important to reduce the cost of certification. 

2 Ideally for smaller operations, we proposed that 

3 these costs would be covered 100 percent. We are 

4 grateful that the cashier program mistake was 

5 corrected. However it is still inadequate for 

6 operations that gross less than $250,000 a year. 

7 Moving to this approach would minimize paperwork, 

8 additional applications, and make the support

9 automatic and accessible. Another way to improve 

10 access to certification is to promote group 

11 certification as an option. Several incubated 

12 farms in the Midwest have utilized this approach, 

13 the ability for a collective of farmers who share 

14 a label, farmland, or unique farming methods, to 

15 also share the burden of documentation, makes the 

16 certification process less daunting and 

17 threatening. We see younger farmers and black, 

18 indigenous, and other farmers of color embracing 

19 cooperatives and collectives as a way to gain land 

20 access and farm life balance. Good certification 

21 would validate this approach and increased 
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1 participation in the National Organic Program for 

2 a new group of farmers. It feels very much like 

3 the organic movement is at crossroads. We urge

4 the NOSB to keep small to medium scale organic 

5 farmers in mind as requests come for changes that 

6 favor those that view the label on the in terms 

7 of market share. Instead, let's work to make the 

8 label more accessible to the farmers whose 

9 operations more closely resemble what consumers 

10 expect from organic: diverse, whole-system farming 

11 that builds healthy soils and truly benefits 

12 people, animals, and the climate.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

14 for your comments.

15 MS. STERN: Okay.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Do you have any 

17 questions from the Board? I'll throw the same one 

18 at you since you almost answered it for me. Could 

19 you kind of dive in a little bit more? I feel like 

20 we've heard a lot about, you know, organic not being 

21 necessarily considered an obvious climate solution 
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1 and not acknowledged when large funding 

2 opportunities come around as the climate smart 

3 solution. And so when we're looking at that we're 

4 only one percent of the land, what do you see as 

5 the balance between elevating certain organic 

6 farmers versus saying really anyone who's willing 

7 to participate is so ahead of conventional farming, 

8 that we should just be trying to add as much fuel 

9 to this as we can to keep this growing. What's 

10 the balance to strike there?

11 MS. STERN: It's a tough one for sure. 

12 I think that ultimately we want to get to the place 

13 where what we're not advocating for us to something 

14 that's less bad.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Yes.

16 MS. STERN: And I think that, at the 

17 end of the day, small farms still feed the majority 

18 of the world. And, as we're and other speakers 

19 have pointed out the fragility in our food system. 

20 I think we do need to continue to do what we can 

21 through USDA programs and the ways that we 
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1 approached us to really strengthen the ability of 

2 people to access land and continue to kind of farm 

3 at human scale. And yes, I mean, there's 

4 definitely a balance to be had. And at the same 

5 time, I think, just this notion of, you know, 

6 building healthy soils and being truly 

7 regenerative in the way that we are farming, is 

8 where -- I mean, you mentioned climate at the front 

9 end. And I think that's -- it's still going to 

10 be the critical piece. It still where we want the 

11 balance of this to happen, I believe.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Liz 

13 has a question for you.

14 MEMBER GRAZNAK: Hi, Lori.

15 MS. STERN: Hi, Liz.

16 MEMBER GRAZNAK: Being a small farmer 

17 myself I'm very, very glad that you brought up this 

18 topic and it was actually a conversation that was 

19 happening in the chat earlier today and also a topic 

20 of conversation earlier. So I think it is a real 

21 concern how to keep and get more younger, newer, 
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1 smaller-scale farmers. I don't want to say to I 

2 mean, they -- we are farming organically, but 

3 having faith in the label and having faith in what 

4 USDA NOP stands for is really, really important. 

5 And I recognize that it is an issue, but I don't 

6 know what the answer is. I don't know how to 

7 approach the young farmers and the small-scale 

8 farmers that are in my community to impress upon 

9 them why they should certify and I think it is a 

10 topic that people are talking about. But I just 

11 want to know maybe from MOSES' perspective what 

12 ideas you guys have or you're talking about of ways 

13 to address the problem, I guess. It's a super hard 

14 question.

15 MS. STERN: It is a really hard 

16 question. And I think I touched on it a little 

17 bit. I mean, if we look at -- I mean, group 

18 certification is something that happens, but it's 

19 not necessarily ubiquitous. It's not all 

20 certifies that know how to do that --

21 MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes.
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1 MS. STERN: -- or note that. So I 

2 think that ultimately I guess we're starting with 

3 this place of reducing the barriers. And true to 

4 all USDA programs, but specifically in this 

5 instance, it would be access to the National 

6 Organic Program for sure. So reducing barriers 

7 and then doing what we can to really promote 

8 markets. I mean, a lot of these comments are 

9 saying the same thing, right? So people know that 

10 there's a place to sell into that they're, you know, 

11 really looking at equity along entire food systems 

12 and value chains. So that that happens. I mean, 

13 the concern I guess with some of the largeness is 

14 that where the profit ends up. But I think if we 

15 can show value across supply chains, more local 

16 food systems, reducing barriers to many of these 

17 programs that make it impossible and then land 

18 access things just tough, just generally. You 

19 know, people that want to farm organically and we 

20 could probably happily convince them to get 

21 certified, may not have access to land. So just 
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1 trying to be really creative and how that happens 

2 too.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Liz, thank you for 

4 that question. That was great. And thank you for 

5 your answer, Lori. Really appreciate your time 

6 today and your comments.

7 MS. STERN: Yes. Thanks again for the 

8 opportunity.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

10 up, we have Mark Schonbeck, followed by Beatrice 

11 Maingi, and then Doug Crabtree.

12 MS. ARSENAULT: Nate, I've not seen 

13 Mark on the line with us.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

15 Scooting right along then we'll have Beatrice 

16 Maingi, Doug Crabtree, and then Nate Lewis. So 

17 Beatrice, please go ahead.

18 MS. MAINGI: Can you hear me?

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

20

21
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1 MS. MAINGI: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 

2 Chairman, on behalf of Safe Foods Corporation, I'd 

3 like to thank the Board for reviewing the petition 

4 to add CPC to the national list and for the 

5 opportunity to provide comments. CPC's an FDA and 

6 USDA approved intervention that has been 

7 effectively used for over 15 years in conventional 

8 poultry processing plants to reduce the prevalence 

9 of pathogens. CPC is classified as a quaternary 

10 ammonium compound or QAC. Most QACs are approved 

11 by the EPA for use as sanitizers and algicides. 

12 However, for over 60 years, CPC is the only QAC 

13 approved by the FDA for use in oral applications, 

14 such as toothpaste, lozenges, and mouth washes. 

15 CPC cannot be compared to the EPA-approved 

16 herbicides paraquat or diquat. These materials 

17 are categorized as biologens which function as 

18 highly reactive redox compounds, which CPC is not. 

19 Therefore, it is chemically inaccurate and 

20 misleading to equate CPC's function and toxicity 

21 to that of paraquat and diquat. Although the 
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1 subcommittee's proposal states that CPC is not 

2 essential for organic poultry processing due to 

3 a robust organic poultry industry supported by 

4 existing materials, data from the USDA's Food 

5 Safety and Inspection Services or FSIS shows that 

6 existing materials used in organic processing are 

7 inadequate in addressing food-borne illnesses. 

8 FSIS announced in 2021, a shift from measuring 

9 poultry pathogens based on total salmonella 

10 serotypes, to focusing on three serotypes that are 

11 responsible for causing most human illnesses. FSI 

12 has identified key performance indicator or KPI 

13 reduction levels for those three strains. From 

14 that data from June 2020 to July 2021, FSI's data 

15 shows that 42.5 percent prevalence of the KPI 

16 strains from all the establishments and then 100 

17 percent prevalence came from organic on the 

18 establishments, while 23.5 percent prevalence was 

19 from establishments using CPC. Therefore 

20 indicating that CPC would be a much needed tool 

21 for organic-only establishments to control the 
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1 prevalence of these three key KPI strings. The 

2 subcommittee commented that the rules are unclear 

3 on how to handle an inert compound in a product. 

4 In the case of CPC formulation, the inert 

5 component is propylene glycol. So it would be safe 

6 to suggest that the Board has encountered a similar 

7 situation in the past with parasitic acid. PAA 

8 formulations contain up to 50 percent acidic acid 

9 which has no performance function. Again, Safe 

10 Foods would like to thank the Board for reviewing 

11 the petition and allowing for comments. Thank 

12 you.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

14 much for your time today and your comments. Any 

15 questions from the Board for Beatrice? Mindee has 

16 a question. Please go ahead, Mindee.

17 MEMBER JEFFERY: Yes. Thanks. Since 

18 we have a little bit of time, do you mind if you 

19 want to finish your statement on the comparison 

20 to parasitic acid, did you get complete with that?

21 MS. MAINGI: Yes. So according to the 
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1 way parasitic acid is in its equilibrium, it has 

2 the reactants as acidic acid and hydrogen peroxide. 

3 But when you have your finished product, which 

4 is PAA, you also have acidic acid present in that 

5 product. So it's always present, but it doesn't 

6 actually serve a function. So you could say it's 

7 an inert product that is already included in PAA. 

8 And for that, there doesn't seem to be any -- I 

9 guess, any issue with having it listed as a -- on 

10 the national list. For PAA to be listed even 

11 though acidic acid is an inert part of it that is 

12 not on the national list, if that makes sense.

13 MEMBER JEFFERY: Is it the same 

14 requirement because CPC requires the propylene 

15 glycol, so you're saying it says it's the same and 

16 now the same?

17 MS. MAINGI: It is because the raw 

18 materials in order to produce PAA are the acidic 

19 acid and hydrogen peroxide. However, when they're 

20 reacted acidic acid does not fully react or it 

21 doesn't get out of the equation because it's an 
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1 equilibrium. So it's always going to be present 

2 along with the product, PAA. But in this case, 

3 it's just I mean, all right, it doesn't actually 

4 perform any function. It doesn't kill bacteria, 

5 it's just -- it's presence.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

7 questions for Beatrice. Sanitizers, it's 

8 something I always have on the top of my mind so 

9 I really appreciate hearing from experts like you 

10 and we appreciate your time today.

11 MS. MAINGI: Thank you for the 

12 opportunity.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

14 up we have Doug Crabtree, followed by Nate Lewis, 

15 and then Ken Dallmier. Doug, are you -- I'm not 

16 sure if you're joining my phone, but if you can 

17 hear us, please go ahead.

18 MR. CRABTREE: Can you hear me?

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Loud and clear. 

20 Thank you.

21 MR. CRABTREE: That's great. I want 
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1 to apologize for any background noise. I'm in a 

2 tractor and we farm up here in North Central Montana 

3 and we're seeding today or trying to. I want to 

4 first thank the Board for the opportunity to 

5 testify and really honor your commitments being 

6 there. I'd like to 2nd, or 3rd, or 15th of the 

7 comments that other farmers have made about 

8 scheduling these meetings at times when it would 

9 be much more appropriate and convenient for 

10 producers to be involved. But the issue I really 

11 want to address primarily is the nitrogen 

12 fertilizers. You know, we grow 15 to 20 crops 

13 across 13,000 acres here and have been engaged in 

14 organic agriculture for 20-plus years and worked 

15 to get certifier and inspector. I've got a lot 

16 of experience and I just -- I find these products 

17 to be absolutely unnecessary and see many risks 

18 in their inclusion. In our systems and those that 

19 I'm familiar with across the vast part of country, 

20 we rely on crop rotation. On what I called green 

21 manure crops, essentially what I'm seeding today 
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1 coincidentally. We grow in our rotation a 

2 five-year rotation, two of those are green manure 

3 crops in our seven-year rotation. We'll have two 

4 years devoted to that. Crops that are grown 

5 strictly to build and feed the soil. And to my 

6 understanding of the standards that is a 

7 requirement. That's been moved everyone is they 

8 purchased material or we'd have to go off farm to 

9 get to the supplement our fertility. That's the 

10 view from here.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

12 Doug. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I didn't mean to cut 

13 you off.

14 MR. CRABTREE: No, I've said my piece 

15 and would gladly address any questions.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Any 

17 questions from the Board? I have a question, Doug. 

18 When you think about growing your system, you said 

19 13,000 acres. It sounds like that's expansive. 

20 There a lot going on there and there's a lot of 

21 different crops being grown according to your 
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1 testimony, could you speak just a little bit more 

2 about how you view the relationship between the 

3 farmer and the land as far as feeding the land and 

4 the land feeding the farmer, and how there's, maybe 

5 a missed piece. I think in some of these 

6 discussions, but we're really looking at a holistic 

7 system that can be self-sustaining. Could you 

8 speak a little bit more about the give and take 

9 with crop rotation and viable farming.

10 MR. CRABTREE: Well, I'll try to 

11 address that, Nate, that's a big question. I 

12 guess, first of all I want to offer, you know, in 

13 Montana we're a very small farm. The normal or 

14 non-organic operations around us are two or three 

15 times the scale that we are operated on. So I would 

16 want mention that.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

18 reminder. Yes.

19 MR. CRABTREE: Not to be deceived by 

20 a number that seems large in other parts of the 

21 country. But to address your question, you know, 
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1 we call our farm Vilicus and that's the Latin word 

2 means steward of the land. We take that very 

3 seriously. We believe that -- you know, it's not 

4 only our ethics, but that -- that organic farming 

5 is built upon. What we're really here for is to 

6 be stewards, to build soil, to feed the biology, 

7 and then as a byproduct of that, we will produce 

8 some products that are able to be food for others. 

9 But if we don't take care of the soil, we're not 

10 organic at any definition and we're not going to 

11 be here very long, that's critical. And the key 

12 to that is look to nature as our guide, diversity 

13 in any way you can get it. More crops, more types, 

14 more seasons, integrate livestock, more species. 

15 Under climate change that's just becoming more 

16 and more evident and more and more necessary. 

17 Spread your risk, diversify economically, 

18 agronomically. That's what the key is.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

20 for that answer. Kim has a question for you.

21 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi, Doug. I really 
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1 appreciate your time especially being out on the 

2 tractor today. Being a larger-scope producer. 

3 Can you speak to your challenges with sourcing seed 

4 for your crop rotation and give us a little bit 

5 more kind of, just dialogue from your perspective 

6 in that arena?

7 MR. CRABTREE: Sure. Well, if you 

8 would have asked me six months ago, I'd said we've 

9 never had any trouble finding seed. We do have 

10 some trouble farming commercially as organic. But 

11 I think that's growing. We're trying to grow more 

12 and more of our own, which is the best way. The 

13 biggest supply chain challenge we've faced is that 

14 there were actually some seeds we could not buy 

15 this year. Oats, and soft wheat, that we have a 

16 market for. So it has become a challenge. I hope 

17 and I think that's transitory. But, you know, as 

18 I said earlier, I think the best thing we can do 

19 is grow our own or work with other producers in 

20 our region and cooperatively to grow seed 

21 organically on our own farms and then it can be 
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1 another market for us as well.

2 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Absolutely. Thank 

3 you very much. I appreciate your response.

4 MR. CRABTREE: Thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Doug 

6 for joining from the tractor, and I -- we all hear 

7 you loud and clear that these meetings could be 

8 better timed for a lot of farmers. But I just want 

9 to give a huge shout up to those farmers who still 

10 make it despite the challenges. So thank you for 

11 your time today.

12 MR. CRABTREE: Well, thank you all and 

13 let's see you in January next time.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, sounds 

15 good. Next up we have Nate Lewis, followed by Ken 

16 Dallmier, Emily Brown Rosen, and then we have 

17 Maddie Kempner and Margaret Scoles to finish this 

18 out today. After that, I'm going to go through 

19 the list of folks who we missed, who weren't 

20 available when we were first calling to see if 

21 anyone is on the line as we do have a little bit 
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1 of time. So Nate Lewis, please go ahead.

2

3

4 MR. NATE LEWIS: Hey, folks. Nate 

5 Lewis, calling from Olympia, Washington, speaking 

6 on behalf of our farm, Oyster Bay Farm. My wife 

7 and I farmed together for about 20 years, we raised 

8 organic pastured broilers and eggs, grass-fed 

9 beef, lamb, pastured pork, vegetables and crops. 

10 We dabble in some shellfish raising oysters and 

11 clams on the tidelands that we own on our farm and 

12 we manage a small FSC certified timber lot for 

13 specialty wood products sold locally. My off-farm 

14 job is with Washington Farmland Trust. We work 

15 to preserve organic and sustainable farms in State 

16 of Washington. Before that, I was a farm policy 

17 director at the Organic Trade Association and 

18 before that, I was a certifier with the Washington 

19 State Department of Ag and I ran the materials 

20 review program. So my past experience informs my 

21 opinions and comments I want to provide. But being 
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1 clear that their comments are purely my own. On 

2 behalf, I suppose of Oyster Bay Farm, but probably 

3 more Nate Lewis, the policy wonk and advocate for 

4 organics. I want to talk about the crops 

5 subcommittee's recommendation on soil 

6 fertilizers, I really support the move of the 

7 recommendation from the practice standard 205-203 

8 to the prohibited substances standard, so that 

9 there are actual teeth on the potential use of these 

10 substances. So I think the positioning of this 

11 topic at 105 is appropriate. But there are two 

12 areas that I think are lacking in the proposal. 

13 One is that it doesn't address soluble fertilizers 

14 of non-nitrogen form like phosphorus and potassium 

15 and other macro and micro nutrients, and then 

16 secondly, it doesn't provide a mechanism for the 

17 industry to petition or put forth 

18 substance-specific restrictions that are more 

19 appropriate for the types of products to 

20 manufacturing. So if I were in your shoes, I would 

21 pull this recommendation back one more time or a 
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1 few more times to get it right. This is a really 

2 significant issue. We're talking about 

3 non-synthetics, that are highly soluble and 

4 clearly don't immediately align with organic 

5 principles but that need, we do need guidance and 

6 we do need mechanisms. So I would recommend 

7 pulling it back, doing some more work and then the 

8 products from that further work would be a 

9 definition for the term and currently undefined 

10 term mined substances of high solubility. And 

11 then a recommendation that term be added to the 

12 205-105 with the allowance that manufacturers' 

13 petition to add restrictions to 602 to allow those 

14 things. So I know at the end of the day and the 

15 second thing, so that's a mental gymnastics, I'm 

16 happy to expand upon that, but I think that would 

17 achieve a lot of the goals and really give play 

18 -- you know, give a good baseline for the good work 

19 that you've already done. So thanks.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

21 for your comments. Amy has a question for you.
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1 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Nate, thanks for 

2 your time today. I really appreciate that. 

3 Wanted to ask you, you had mentioned to define mine 

4 substances of high solubility, and I was just going 

5 to ask you what your definition would be of that 

6 term --

7 MR. NATE LEWIS: Yes.

8 MEMBER BRUCH: -- you forgot that part.

9 MR. NATE LEWIS: Yes. A little bit. 

10 I think there's two pieces that we need to look 

11 at. One is obviously the mined side, mined piece. 

12 And I would want to be expansive on that. So it 

13 wasn't just things you've dug out of a pit in the 

14 ground. I view like we have -- like ammonia 

15 extracts are mined from chicken manure piles. So 

16 I think we need to be expansive on what mined means. 

17 It doesn't necessarily have to only be things that 

18 are dug out of a hole in the ground. And then high 

19 solubility I think needs to be -- we need to be 

20 working closely with our colleagues at APFCO and 

21 the fertilizer definitions that they develop there 
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1 so that we're not putting liquid manure and, you 

2 know, manure lagoons into that category. We need 

3 to be clear that solubility has to do with plant 

4 availability, it has to do with the behavior of 

5 the substances in the soil so that they're 

6 bypassing natural processes, and something along 

7 those lines. But I think we can really, as a 

8 community, focus on the mined piece and sort of 

9 what we're comfortable with. But then when we get 

10 high solubility, I think we really want to align 

11 with established terms that are already out there 

12 in APFCO definitions, that are used by state 

13 departments of agriculture to regulate fertilizer 

14 labeling and truthfully win there.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

17 much for your comments today, Nate. Since we just 

18 have a tad bit of time, I just want to hear, Nate. 

19 You're both a farmer, but also someone who's works 

20 with a lot of farmers. What's that ticket to 

21 seeing organic grow, to where I can go into any 
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1 gas station in Montana, rural America where we 

2 don't have co-ops or nicer grocery stores, and 

3 people pluck fresh organic fruits and vegetables 

4 from the shelves?

5 MR. NATE LEWIS: Gosh, Nate. I think 

6 it's going to be do mean that's sort of do a cop 

7 out here, but it's going to really be 

8 site-specific, depending on the crops you're 

9 growing. Depending on, you know, what your goals 

10 are. But I think the recipe is going to be 

11 education of farmers, I think that's been brought 

12 up a lot about, you know, getting farmers 

13 comfortable with organic being option. I think 

14 distribution channels are obviously one of the 

15 major challenges and bottlenecks, and, you know, 

16 and then sort of reassigning how our government 

17 subsidizes food production. You know, there's a 

18 reason why Cheetos are cheap and organic apples 

19 are and part of it is it's more expensive to grow 

20 out organic apples, but also it's an alignment of 

21 priorities and resources.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I appreciate it, 

2 yes. I think we've been hearing. All right. 

3 Thank you for your comments today. Next up, we 

4 have Ken Dallmier, followed by Emily Brown Rosen, 

5 and then Maddie Kempner. Ken, please go ahead.

6 MR. DALLMIER: Well, thank you. 

7 Following Doug and Nate, that's quite a -- quite 

8 shoes to fill. And one thing for Doug, we are 

9 exceedingly jealous in Illinois, that he's seeding 

10 out in Montana. And we actually have a little bit 

11 of rain going on today in Illinois. So good 

12 afternoon and thank you for the opportunity to 

13 present our insights to NOSB. I'm Ken Dallmier 

14 and the president of Clarkson Grain Company in 

15 Cerro Gordo, Illinois. Clarkson Grain provides 

16 organic and non-GM corn and soy beans to global 

17 and domestic food markets. We also provide 

18 organic and non-GM soy lecithin which is used as 

19 a food ingredient in consumer products from 

20 chocolates to infant formula. The $60 billion 

21 value of the organic market is unique and driven 
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1 by the faith and trust in USDA or organic seal and 

2 the integrity of those who follow the production 

3 practices ascribed to that seal. We would submit 

4 three ideas to the NOSB to reduce the incident and 

5 incentives to fraudulent activities within that 

6 seal.

7 First, to improve domestic market 

8 demand, by tightly regulating the import of organic 

9 grain into the United States. Expand the 

10 harmonized tariff schedule codes to cover organic 

11 soy meal for feed and organic soy beans for oil 

12 stuck. Organic soy lecithin and organic sweeping 

13 grain for meal for feed. These new HTS codes will 

14 allow mass balance comparisons to highlight 

15 regions of imbalance and thus potential fraud.

16 Secondly, direct the USDA to utilize 

17 its recall authority for products not in compliance 

18 with the USDA organic seal on the label. A 

19 punitive fine, should be leveled on companies 

20 selling products found to be out of compliance with 

21 the organic seal.

22
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1 Thirdly, we would require organic 

2 certificates to declare crop by acreage to 

3 establish a mechanism for mass balance. The 

4 grower would then have to balance production and 

5 sales equation with their certifier who would 

6 update the NOP integrity database. These action 

7 items enforce already existing regulations and 

8 norms of the U.S. organic market. They provide 

9 mechanisms and incentives to consistently apply 

10 their organic regulations across the globe, 

11 provided for action when fraud is suspected, and 

12 provide significant disincentives to running the 

13 risks inherent in a process system. USDA organic 

14 seal has grown from an idea into a $60 billion 

15 marketplace. To continue that growth trajectory, 

16 a solid regulatory structure needs to be 

17 consistently applied across both supply and 

18 demand. By continuing to allow interpretation and 

19 implementation at a local level of those 

20 regulations, we risk losing that customer trust. 

21 Thank you very much for your time and your 
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1 attention. And if there is extra time, I'm happy 

2 to field any questions.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

4 much for your comments today. Any questions from 

5 the Board? Amy, please go ahead.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Thank you, Nate. 

7 Thank you, Ken, for your time today. I really 

8 appreciate it, and if you can send the rain our 

9 way. We'd love that -- anyway I want to --

10 MR. DALLMIER: Any time.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: I want to appreciate and 

12 recognizes your ideas just to deter fraud, I think 

13 the three that you brought up were pretty 

14 interesting. The numbers 3 is one that we 

15 currently are discussing amongst our subcommittee.

16 MR. DALLMIER: Yes.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: About just recognizing 

18 acres by crop on certificates and getting -- and 

19 we're getting today and Tuesday some great feedback 

20 from stakeholders. You had mentioned kind of that 

21 farmers and certifiers, inspectors can kind of work 
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1 together to see that mass balancing. Do you as 

2 a purchaser of organic soy beans and corn feel that 

3 you could also get into that equation and do a quick 

4 mass balance if you see what a farmer is selling 

5 to you as to production if that's evident on the 

6 certificate?

7 MR. DALLMIER: Yes, of course. That 

8 would be on several layers, actually. On the first 

9 layer, organic integrity I think that that's 

10 self-evident. But as a buyer to make sure that 

11 in lean years that that balance is correct. In 

12 other words, we're not bringing in non-organic 

13 grain into an organic contract. And on strong 

14 years that we're looking at right now where in some 

15 cases, very early organic contracts are -- were 

16 consummated below the current non-organic price. 

17 All of a sudden you have crop failure. Not saying 

18 that it's right or wrong, but it'd be a good way 

19 to check that. So I think there are many, not only 

20 on the organic integrity side, but I think on the 

21 business side, that would also be a very good 
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1 business tool, on both the supply and the demand 

2 side.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

4 question, Amy. If there aren't any other 

5 questions, I have one for you, Ken.

6 MR. DALLMIER: Yes, sir.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It sounds -- we've 

8 had several commenters note that oftentimes 

9 farmers don't have just one buyer. In the world 

10 of grain commodities, it seems like there's 

11 actually, oftentimes, growers selling one maybe 

12 to two different buyers, and lots of times buyers 

13 buy significant portions of a farm's production. 

14 And so when you have growers come in, being able 

15 to spot check -- say they have ten trucks lined 

16 up at your elevator, being able to spot check does 

17 that math work out, do you think that would be a 

18 useful red flag to be able to go to possibly that 

19 grower certified and say it seems like there's a 

20 lot of grain coming in here compared to the acres, 

21 and just be able to crowd source concern?
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1 MR. DALLMIER: Short answer is yes. 

2 The longer answer is you'd have to be a bit careful 

3 about how you do that.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

5 MR. DALLMIER: But we know that, as 

6 Nate brought up I believe, domestic, you know, 

7 we're not -- our domestic house isn't lily-white 

8 either. So we need to make sure that in a 

9 process-based system that there are checks and 

10 balances. And that system needs to work 

11 cooperatively to ensure that the integrity of the 

12 label on -- from the domestic side as well as from 

13 the international import side is true. And really 

14 that's, to me, the single biggest risk of the value 

15 of the USDA organic label, is that -- is loss of 

16 that trust whether it be domestically or 

17 internationally.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. 

19 Thank you so much.

20 MR. DALLMIER: Thank you for your 

21 question.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I appreciate your 

2 time today and your insights. Any other questions 

3 for Ken from the Board? All right. Thank you, 

4 Ken.

5 MR. DALLMIER: Thank you very much.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

7 Emily Brown Rosen, followed by Maddie Kempner, and 

8 then Margaret Scoles. Emily, please go ahead.

9

10 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Hello, I'm Emily 

11 Brown Rosen, Organic Research Associates, and I'm 

12 glad to be speaking with you-all this afternoon. 

13 I'd also like to welcome all the new members to 

14 the board. It's great to see so many new faces 

15 and very well-qualified people. For those who do 

16 not know me, I work in organic certification, 

17 organic technical support, materials review for 

18 OMRI and then I ended up working at USDA NOP in 

19 the standards division for quite a few years. One 

20 of the issues I worked on there was the whole issue 

21 of inert ingredients and pesticides. And I helped 
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1 facilitate the inerts working group which met over 

2 quite a few years starting in 2010 and we ended 

3 up with the group that included EPA, USDA, and NOSB 

4 members and ended up with a recommendation that 

5 went to the board that ended up being modified a 

6 bit and turned out to be the NOSB recommendation 

7 of 2015 to change the annotation on inerts as it 

8 is now. So that was a long process. I mean, it's 

9 been even longer processes since the year 2000 

10 trying figure out how to review inerts and organic. 

11 And we still -- we're not really there yet. So 

12 I know you I -- really understand your problems 

13 and frustrations of trying to deal with this issue 

14 on distilled tall oil, which is -- which I commented 

15 on. I wanted to comment tot -- I need to make a 

16 correction in my written comments. I misquoted 

17 the EPA references there because I mistakenly 

18 looked at the 2010 technical review rather than 

19 2021 one. So basically it's not a very significant 

20 difference but I just want to point out in response 

21 to the discussion document question number 3 about 
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1 how EPA classifies distilled tall oil. It is 

2 considered exempt from tolerance, as an inert 

3 ingredient and it's listed that 40 CFR 18910, 

4 18920, 18930 for pre and post service crop use as 

5 well as livestock use. The kind of -- you know, 

6 I had sort of said that it was -- in my previous 

7 comment, I said it was a lot of the active pesticide 

8 ingredient which is not true. It's listed there 

9 as an inert ingredient. However, all those typos 

10 and PPA, if they have a register, have a opening 

11 paragraph that acknowledges that these things are 

12 exempt from the requirement of a tolerance when 

13 used as an occasionally active ingredient. So it 

14 seemed a little bit ambiguous how EPA is 

15 considering them. The '21 technical review does 

16 mention some scientific research on the actual 

17 pesticide use as an active ingredient. However, 

18 the petition does describe it's used solely as an 

19 inert ingredient, used as a disinfectant, as a 

20 sticker, as a solvent, and that's really the 

21 purpose that you-all should be reviewing it for. 
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1 But overall, the bigger problem here is the whole 

2 how to review inert ingredients at all, given that 

3 we've not moved forward with the changing 

4 annotation . I can add a little more, if you want. 

5 Thank you.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

7 for your comments today. Your name has come up 

8 several times as being an invaluable resource, so 

9 we really appreciate your participation. Brian, 

10 please go ahead.

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: Emily, thanks for 

12 your comments. I've been struggling with this 

13 whole differentiation between active ingredient 

14 and inert ingredient for the distilled tall oil 

15 and probably for everything else too. But in this 

16 case, it really looks from the research articles 

17 cited that show that distilled tall oil does have 

18 insecticidal efficacy. So does it make a 

19 difference if it's called an active ingredient or 

20 called an inert? That's the first sort of question 

21 there. And the second one is that the rates that 
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1 are in the petition are relatively low rates and 

2 probably below what we would normally think of as 

3 active ingredient rates. And yet, the inert 

4 ingredients can be used in products for 99 percent 

5 of some products are inert. This is really 

6 confusing to me but if the petition says it's only 

7 used at a certain rate like 20 percent of product 

8 or something like that, but would the manufacturers 

9 of these pesticides be held to that or can they 

10 just say, well, it's just an inert ingredient, we 

11 can kind of use as much as we want? I don't know 

12 if you see what I'm asking here.

13

14 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Yes, I understand 

15 that. I think it's difficult, yes. I don't know 

16 if it really matters a lot that it's called inert 

17 or active because it does seem like there's -- they 

18 have both properties. However EPA has allowed it 

19 to be called inactive or inert, and so that means 

20 it's not on the label which makes it a lot harder 

21 for farmers or anybody to know that it's there. 
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1 But the fact that it's, you know, the way we have 

2 -- since EPA recognized it as inert, and it 

3 functions on that registered pesticide as inert. 

4 I mean they will look at the pesticides as you 

5 know case by case for each one. If they felt there 

6 was really an active ingredient it didn't qualify 

7 for inert then it wouldn't be on the label as 

8 inactive. So you -- I think by -- if you agree 

9 to put it on the list as an inert, that protects 

10 it from being used beyond that capacity in organic. 

11 It would also have to be possibly separately 

12 listed as an active if you -- if somebody wanted 

13 to formulate it with -- and EPA decided it was an 

14 active ingredient, You know, I think that Kevin 

15 already knows, it's EPA's call on this, you know?

16 USDA doesn't really have a whole lot to say about 

17 how pesticides are labeled. So, you know, you 

18 really kind of need to work within the framework 

19 of EPA, but not step on their toes or else it's 

20 just not going to fly through the, you know, 

21 regulatory process. So I -- you know, in some ways 
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1 it doesn't matter, but I think it kind of protects 

2 organic to call it inert but then have clear rules 

3 for what inerts are allowed. That's where the 

4 problem is now. It's like we've got, like OMRI 

5 pointed out in their comments, there is a lot of 

6 things on the old obsolete list for that are 

7 currently allowed in organic products that are very 

8 closely related to tall fatty acids and some looked 

9 like they might be worse somewhat might be better, 

10 but none of them have been reviewed by the NOSB. 

11 So if we go forward with case-by-case review and 

12 then we also held all this force from sitting out 

13 there, it's going to be a very inconsistent list. 

14 And you might see decisions that are made that 

15 are some are fair, some are maybe not so fair, based 

16 on, you know, of what time period they got allowed, 

17 and they're all being allowed. So that's why I'm 

18 just really hoping you can work within a periodic 

19 time to try get further action on this, and PR and 

20 change the rules so that everybody's, you know, 

21 following the same plan or the same rules to get 
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1 approved and considered.

2 MEMBER CALDWELL: Well, thanks, Emily. 

3 We may rely more on your expertise as we tried 

4 to weave through this, to me pretty densely 

5 incomprehensible process of understanding the 

6 inerts and how they're regulated. So really, 

7 really appreciate that. Thank you.

8 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Sir, you are 

9 welcomed.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I apologize. I 

11 knew I was going to mess up once, so thank you for 

12 your time and expertise today, Emily, really 

13 appreciate it.

14 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Thank you.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

16 up, we have Maddie Kempner and then Margaret Scoles 

17 and then we'll run through the list, see if folks 

18 who we missed may want to comment. Maddie, please 

19 go ahead.

20

21 MS. KEMPNER: Hi, Nate, and thanks 
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1 everybody for your time today. My name is Maddie 

2 Kempner and I'm the policy director at the 

3 Northeast Organic Farming Association of Vermont. 

4 Our accredited certification program for Vermont 

5 Organic Farmers certifies nearly 800 farmers and 

6 handlers in Vermont. I really, really appreciate 

7 the work of the NOSB members and your dedication 

8 to organic integrity, especially on behalf of 

9 organic producers here in Vermont. And I first 

10 want to make a comment about hydroponics in 

11 organic. In Vermont, organic farmers are part of 

12 an informal group of certification, education, and 

13 policy organizations who agree that soil is the 

14 foundation of organic agriculture, and who strive 

15 to achieve consistency in our organizational 

16 policies and certification decisions. 

17 Specifically, we agree on the following: soil is 

18 the foundation of organic agriculture. And a full 

19 reading of OEFFA in the organic regulations 

20 requires that organic plants be grown in soil. 

21 Airponic, hydroponic, and crops grown to maturity 
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1 in containers do not comply with OEFFA 6513-V1. 

2 We can't achieve consistency in our policies and 

3 decisions until the NOP goes through the formal 

4 making process for greenhouse production standards 

5 which were recommended by NOSB nearly 20 years ago. 

6 And we cannot achieve consistency in our policies 

7 and decisions until containers go through the 

8 process of NOSB discussion or recommendation and 

9 NOP rulemaking. The members in this group agree 

10 that the following crops grown in containers have 

11 historically been certified organic and should be 

12 allowed to be certified moving forward including 

13 sprouts, microgreens, spotter, transplants, and 

14 mushrooms. And we acknowledge they still -- these 

15 items still require NOSB discussion, 

16 recommendation, and rulemaking to improve the 

17 consistency of existing certification of these 

18 products. The 2010 NOSB recommendation on 

19 terrestrial plants in containers and enclosures 

20 should be used as a starting point.

21 To address these inconsistencies, we 
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1 urge NOSB to activate the latent agenda item field 

2 and container -- excuse me, field and greenhouse 

3 container production. And we would happily 

4 provide detailed input as to the forward movement 

5 of this agenda item with the shared goal of improved 

6 transparency and consistency and bringing us 

7 integrator alignment with the global organic 

8 movement, including the recent IFOAM position on 

9 hydroponics.

10

11 Secondly, I want to comment on the 

12 NOSB's proposal to limit use of nitrogen 

13 fertilizers with the C to N ratio of three to one 

14 or less to a maximum of 20 percent of a crop's needs. 

15 NOFA Vermont and DOF support this proposal and 

16 even our producers would sometimes rely on these

17 products during especially cold and wet 

18 conditions, support limiting their used to 20 

19 percent of crop needs. And as a member of the 

20 policy committee of the Organic Farmers 

21 Association, I also want to provide some 
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1 clarification on a comment you received from OFA 

2 earlier in this week's meeting. I want to share 

3 with the Board that while it has not yet been 

4 officially adopted by our farmer membership as an 

5 approved OFA policy, the policy committee has voted 

6 unanimously to support the NOSB's proposals to 

7 limit use of nitrogen fertilizers. And I will 

8 close by saying that personally, I really see both 

9 of these issues as critical to organic truly living 

10 up to what I think most people in our community 

11 aspire for it to be, which is not only climate smart 

12 agriculture as it might be defined by USDA, but 

13 a type of agriculture that represents a meaningful 

14 solutions for ecological and biological crisis. 

15 Organic farming should promote biodiversity 

16 below-ground, above ground, and at a landscape 

17 scale. And without healthy living soil as a 

18 foundation, the principles that led to the creation 

19 -- and I continued to guide so many of our 

20 producers and what they do every day will be 

21 rendered meaningless. Thanks.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

2 much for your comments. Do we have any questions 

3 from the Board? Since we have a minute before our 

4 last couple of commenters, I have a question for 

5 you. Could you just repeat that last two sentences 

6 of your comments.

7 MS. KEMPNER: Do you want me to just 

8 reread it to you or do you want me to like say from 

9 my heart again?

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Either way. The 

11 rendered meaningless part, I didn't quite catch 

12 the whole thing.

13 MS. KEMPNER: Essentially my thought 

14 behind them and why the issue of hydroponics and 

15 highly soluble nitrogen fertilizers are important 

16 to me and I think our community in our produces 

17 in Vermont as a whole is these issues are really 

18 tied to organic being based in the soil as a 

19 foundational issue and that soil being sort of a 

20 living, breathing biological organism that is the 

21 basis of all life. And without which, farming just 
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1 happens as a system of inputs in and crops out. 

2 That's not tied to our greater ecology as I think 

3 organic was intended to be. So I think, you know, 

4 by allowing the use of highly soluble fertilizers 

5 to a significant degree, and by allowing 

6 hydroponics, we're really removing farming from 

7 that broader ecological context, which I think is 

8 so important to organic really being a meaningful 

9 climate solution.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

11 that. Then my question for you would be: If we 

12 look at the total percentage of food coming from 

13 hydroponics versus all of the farmers producing 

14 soil-based foods like grains, dairy, forages, what 

15 is the balance we can strike for saying what we 

16 aspire the organic industry to be and how we still 

17 honor that -- not to toot my own horn, I was out 

18 seeding 16 hours a day. And the only reason I can 

19 be a farmer is because of organic or folks who have 

20 commented that they were able to come back to the 

21 farm because of organic. With these broad 
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1 sweeping statements that something like HSN or 

2 hydroponics rendered everyone else's work 

3 meaningless. Would you expand on that a little 

4 bit and maybe clarify?

5 MS. KEMPNER: Yes. And I don't mean 

6 to say that it rendered everyone else's work 

7 meaningless. I think I just mean that it really 

8 goes against what I see is the foundational 

9 principles that led to the creation of OEFFA. I 

10 don't mean that the work that other folks are doing 

11 is meaningless, or that the work that producers 

12 who are still producing in the soil is meaningless, 

13 that's not what I mean to say at all. I just mean 

14 that if we ignore living soil as the foundation, 

15 it just really goes against those founding 

16 principles. And in some ways renders those 

17 principles potentially meaningless if we go down 

18 this road of moving toward a system of agriculture 

19 that's really dependent on outside inputs in that 

20 way, if that makes sense.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It does, it does, 
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1 yes. Thank you for that clarification. All 

2 right. Well, thank you so much for your comments 

3 today. I appreciate it. Next up, we have 

4 Margaret Scoles and then our last commenter today 

5 is going to be Kris Klokkenga. So Margaret, please 

6 go ahead.

7 MS. SCOLES: Thanks. Margaret 

8 Scoles, International Organic Inspectors 

9 Association. Members of the NOSB, NOP, friends, 

10 and colleagues, my comments today are different 

11 from our written comments submitted. IOIA is a 

12 leading worldwide training and networking 

13 association for organic inspectors. I'm here to 

14 express gratitude. More than a year ago Dr. Tucker 

15 published a human capital memo, you the, NOSB 

16 opened it up for public comment by making it a 

17 discussion document in 2020 leading to the 

18 recommendation which provided the foundation for 

19 the NOP to release a request for applications and 

20 funding to address human capital concerns. All 

21 of this work paved the way for a very important 
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1 initiative. At the spring NOSB meeting 2021, IOIA 

2 announced our new apprenticeship intensive program 

3 to help onboard inspectors faster and more 

4 effectively.

5

6 Apprenticeship, the lack of was 

7 consistently identified as one of the biggest 

8 barriers to a professional career path, partnering 

9 with Organic Valley, IOIA will deliver livestock 

10 apprenticeship, intensive training this year. 

11 Everyone agreed that human capital was a critical 

12 issue. This lack of diversity among organic 

13 professionals with another concern. NOP released 

14 funding a little more than six months ago only. 

15 IOIA is privileged to be a partner in four of the 

16 projects funded. The impact on our community has 

17 been astounding. Here are some of the things that 

18 have happened. IOIA was funded to develop an

19 inspector apprenticeship tool kit that other 

20 organizations could use to help recruit and train 

21 new inspectors. I spent last week in Kentucky as 
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1 co-trainer for a very diverse cohort of crop 

2 inspection training participants, we removed the 

3 barrier of cost. They did not pay to participate. 

4 As for several additional questions to avoid 

5 screening out diverse participants and targeted 

6 new and diverse audiences. We work with regional 

7 organizations to reach new audiences. And with 

8 the University of Kentucky and Kentucky State 

9 University to develop robust curriculum. Most 

10 participants were under 35, many were smaller scale 

11 farmers. Three of 17 were African-American. All 

12 were happy to help ground truth the training 

13 concepts. Crop apprenticeship intensive is 

14 coming up in Kentucky in just a few weeks with many 

15 BIPOC applicants. Through a project led by 

16 Organic Farmers Association, many DEI training 

17 opportunities have been offered. The five 

18 partners, including IOIA, each had the opportunity 

19 to take on a BIPOC intern. IOIA's young 

20 African-American intern is training to become an 

21 organic inspector, or reviewer, or both. Oregon 
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1 Health used a project where universities are 

2 identifying gaps in existing organic curricula and 

3 creating resources to fill some of those gaps, and 

4 more internships through OSU. The Organic 

5 Integrity Cooperative Guild is developing a new 

6 inspectors cooperative model, so much of a 

7 different landscape than one year ago. It's 

8 fantastic to see our sector working together. 

9 Thank you.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

11 for your comments. Any questions for Margaret? 

12 I'm going to chastise myself preemptively from 

13 making a comment since it's not as much a question, 

14 but I just wanted to say that oftentimes we focus 

15 a lot on what's going wrong in our industry and 

16 I think there's a lot that's going right. But I 

17 think this is an especially exciting moment to have 

18 identified such a noticeable issue barrier, 

19 impending crisis, as we look to keep the human 

20 capital resources we have in the industry, and the 

21 work that IOIA has done through the NOP I think 
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1 has made a real impact already. And I think seeing 

2 the folks who have commented today and on Tuesday, 

3 we can see that there's a breakthrough with who 

4 is able to participate in the organic industry. 

5 And I think that's going to make us more relevant 

6 but also more resilient in the future. So thank 

7 you for your work.

8 MS. SCOLES: Thank you. And I hope you 

9 saw the chat from an NOSB member who had that intern 

10 as a graduate student.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Dilip has a 

12 question for you real quick.

13 MEMBER NANDWANI: No. Sorry. It's 

14 not a question, actually. I, kind of, privately 

15 messaged to Margaret that he was my student.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

17 MEMBER NANDWANI: Just wanted to say 

18 that and --

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Fantastic.

20 MEMBER NANDWANI: So since I asked 

21 that, can I ask that -- so African-American 
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1 students, and there are a lot of African-American 

2 farmers who are minority farmers and I deal with 

3 them almost every day. Do you say it's a good sign 

4 that African-American also whether students or 

5 trainees are coming to get this inspection training 

6 and it's -- I think it's a good sign, isn't it?

7 MS. SCOLES: I definitely think it's 

8 a good sign.

9 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you for your 

10 comments. I appreciate it.

11 MS. SCOLES: Thanks.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Liz has a question 

13 for you.

14 MEMBER GRAZNAK: I was just curious to 

15 know -- so you said that you received some funding 

16 from NOP. Did I hear that correctly?

17 MS. SCOLES: Right.

18 MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes. How long is the 

19 funding stint, how long is it for?

20 MS. SCOLES: It's just a one year 

21 project.
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1 MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes.

2 MS. SCOLES: And it finishes in 

3 September. So it -- during this year, we're 

4 developing a tool kit for apprenticeship. And 

5 that includes some training with groups that are 

6 selected to run through it and give evaluation 

7 feedback, and hopefully improve the final product 

8 of the tool kit.

9 MEMBER GRAZNAK: And what about for 

10 future years, how do you see being able to afford 

11 doing this work? Say next year without the 

12 funding?

13 MS. SCOLES: We do think there's going 

14 to have to be some government support, and there's 

15 a lot of different ways it could go. Because an 

16 intensive apprenticeship intensive that takes a 

17 whole year and takes small groups of five or six 

18 people to four farms, it's very expensive compared 

19 to -- people say now sometimes basic training is 

20 expensive. It's actually very cheap compared to 

21 what it costs to do this type of training which 
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1 we feel like is a really viable learning option 

2 but making it affordable. We are investigating 

3 partnering with universities and maybe with 

4 apprenticeship.gov which is a program that you can 

5 develop apprenticeship that is supported partially 

6 by the government. And we think that people should 

7 pay something to take the training. These people 

8 are not paying anything, but we do believe there 

9 should be participation to commitment and 

10 hopefully certification agency are actually -- are 

11 likely as they currently send a lot of people to 

12 basic training, they would probably pay part of 

13 the cost to put new inspectors through the program. 

14 Because it takes a lot of work to onboard a new 

15 inspector if it's a way to do it efficiently and 

16 more effectively, that means that it isn't 

17 expensive, it's a good bargain. Thanks for your 

18 question.

19 MEMBER GRAZNAK: Sure. Thank you.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

21 questions for Margaret? All right. Really 
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1 appreciate your time and work Margaret. Thank 

2 you. Lastly we have Kris. Kris, are you on the 

3 line?

4 MR. KLOKKENGA: Yes, I am.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

6 Please go ahead.

7

8 MR. KLOKKENGA: Hi. My name is Kris 

9 Klokkenga. I will apologize that I missed my time 

10 slot earlier because I didn't realize you were on 

11 a different time zone than I'm in. So I'm located 

12 in Central Illinois and halfway between Chicago 

13 and St. Louis. I am an organic farmer here, and 

14 I wanted to speak regarding the regulations for 

15 importing organic grain from other countries. I 

16 have -- my previous experience, I worked in Ghana, 

17 West Africa from 2008 to 2016 for two years with 

18 an agricultural processor specifically processing 

19 shea nuts and then for the next six years, I had 

20 my own farm there where I grew two crops of corn 

21 for four years basically. And so just -- I just 
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1 want to speak with the -- to the integrity a little 

2 bit, of how grain from those other countries and 

3 just wanted to give an opinion that it can be very 

4 -- just seeing -- I didn't work specifically in 

5 the organic atmosphere when I was there, but just 

6 wanted to say that the integrity that is practiced 

7 in developing countries can sometimes be 

8 questionable. The other thing for me is just in 

9 regards to being able to have markets. Since I'm 

10 in Central Illinois, I try to practice a robust 

11 crop rotation used in corn and soy beans primarily, 

12 but also wanting to grow alfalfa, barley, oats, 

13 and especially when it comes to marketing my small 

14 grains in my location, even though they help me 

15 on my -- with my rotation and my soil health, I 

16 feel like when we bring in grain from other 

17 countries, then that hinders the local farmer or 

18 the domestic farmer, organic farmer here in the 

19 United States. And so I also recognize that if 

20 you're going to have regulation for the internet, 

21 I would also speak that it's not only necessary 
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1 to have regulations for the importing of grain, 

2 but also for domestic end-users that they're able 

3 to take notice of, you know, the delivery, the 

4 traceability every time that I submitted a load 

5 of grain, I've submit a bill of lading. How are 

6 those being used, and what in what ways are they 

7 traced through the process? So I just want to 

8 thank you for your time here today to listen to 

9 me, and be happy to take any questions if you have 

10 them, but just want to also just reiterate that, 

11 I just think that it's necessary to have those 

12 regulations in place and I would employ yes, we 

13 try to, you know, limit the amount of organic grain 

14 that can be important in the United States.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Really appreciate 

16 you taking the time to speak with us today. Any 

17 questions for Kris from the Board? Amy, please 

18 go ahead.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Sure, Kris, thanks for 

20 your time today really appreciate it. Bring up 

21 a couple of big topics on integrity and market 
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1 viability. The question you mentioned at the end 

2 about those with lading. Have you ever seen on 

3 your reconciliation form that you or your 

4 settlement sheet that you received from your grain 

5 buyer any indication of your lot number, your lot 

6 tracking system?

7 MR. KLOKKENGA: In my settlement 

8 sheets that I received, I have not seen that. I 

9 deliver grain to or I supply grain to three or four 

10 end-users and I have not I of course we have to 

11 submit a bill of lading each time, but outside of 

12 me having that bill of lading, I'm not sure what 

13 -- so the answer to your question is no.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you. That's 

15 definitely something that we'll be talking about 

16 in our upcoming board meetings so I appreciate your 

17 input.

18 MR. KLOKKENGA: Yes.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Yes. 

20 Kim, please go ahead.

21 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi, Kris, thank you 
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1 for your comments today. Maybe small follow-up 

2 from Amy's question about BOLs. Does your 

3 certifying body reconcile your acres and yields 

4 for you on an annualized pieces?

5 MR. KLOKKENGA: Yes. Every year the 

6 certifier that I use goes through this mass balance 

7 has to be calculated, then that has to come into 

8 a certain, whatever is an acceptable range for them 

9 after I provide them all of my settlement sheets.

10 MEMBER HUSEMAN: So you do provide that 

11 your settlement sheets to your certifying body?

12 MR. KLOKKENGA: Yes, I provide -- so 

13 I -- my yes, I do. They require all of that. But 

14 from the settlement sheets, there's no place on 

15 there that you're seeing my reference bill of 

16 lading number to my -- to the best of my knowledge.

17 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So if I may offer 

19 just one clarification question on that real quick. 

20 So you have all of your settlement sheets from 

21 your buyer, you have all the bills of lading you 
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1 submitted, but there's not really connector 

2 between them other than your name?

3 MR. KLOKKENGA: Other than my name and 

4 the load numbers that go, you know, I mean, like 

5 -- so the way that I do it is that I state my contract 

6 number and then load number. So load number 1, 

7 I know that that was the first date that, you know, 

8 and then your dates would march up there to 

9 everything. If you delivered two in a day, then 

10 you'd be able to see that, but that is how -- that's 

11 one way for them to reconcile that.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. Thank you. 

13 Dilip, do you have a question?

14 MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes. Very quick. 

15 Thank you for your comments, Kris, really 

16 appreciated your thoughts. This is a quick 

17 question. We've been hearing a lot about the, you 

18 know, this incubatory and fraud and organic buses, 

19 you know, conventional. So do you know or do you 

20 have any tools or your certifier which can test 

21 or identify versus conventional methods? I know 
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1 that there are some tools which you can use to 

2 detect genetically thing and GM and some of the 

3 contamination. But other than that, are you aware 

4 of that? Thank you.

5 MR. KLOKKENGA: Thank you, Dilip, for 

6 your question. I am not -- the only way that I 

7 am aware -- I mean, I don't think that you could 

8 -- if my neighbor grew non-GMO soy beans and tried 

9 to market them as organic, I don't know that there 

10 would be any way that one could differentiate that. 

11 I'm not aware of any test except a non-GMO test, 

12 but maybe something else exists.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Kim, 

14 please go ahead.

15 MEMBER HUSEMAN: I'm going to ask one 

16 more follow up for Kris and it's a slightly 

17 different topic. But you had mentioned earlier 

18 about growing crops to feed the soil and the 

19 systemic nature of your organization or it were 

20 your crop rotation --

21 MR. KLOKKENGA: Right.
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1 MEMBER HUSEMAN: -- you know, the 

2 livestock group and this is reason why I'm bringing 

3 this up is part of our research priorities. 

4 Because to your point, corn and soy are the backbone 

5 to feeding any livestock in the U.S., whether it's 

6 organic or conventional. But we know that's in 

7 order to create the holistic system that other 

8 grains, other legumes, other seed need to be 

9 introduced into the soil, but there's always the 

10 hindrance from a marketing standpoint. Can you 

11 elaborate on some of the marketing hindrances or 

12 resources that you might be to have found to be

13 hopeful to help market some of the other small 

14 grains. Oats, or barley, or sunflowers, or, you 

15 know, alfalfa just, can elaborate in that space 

16 if you would, please?

17

18 MR. KLOKKENGA: Okay. So this was my 

19 first year and growing alfalfa and I'm growing 

20 alfalfa for my benefit to introduce a different 

21 hormone into the soil to hope help with weed control 
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1 the following year. So I'm doing oats and alfalfa 

2 one year as a nurse crop in the alfalfa. So one 

3 of the ways that I marketing that which I have not 

4 been able to market my alfalfa organically because 

5 I am in such -- in Central Illinois here, I'm in 

6 such a livestock deficit. There's almost no 

7 livestock around me. So what I found myself doing 

8 is I'm traveling then 120 miles south to St. Louis 

9 where I'm trying to meet and I found this on 

10 hayexchange.com is just so I'm not if I'm just using 

11 a website there to try to get my product marketed, 

12 but I don't really have a connection to figure out 

13 where the organic farmers in my area that could 

14 use that. So I don't have access to that. And 

15 then so that's one. And then like barley, this 

16 year with my barley, it's first time for me growing 

17 that and I'm going to go ahead and probably reach 

18 out to the gentlemen that sold me the seed and find 

19 out, you know, where can I go with that? But like 

20 also on my oats -- the oats I'm growing, they're 

21 not -- I'm not growing those organic oats, because 
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1 I've just -- the only place that I've been able 

2 to find to market my oats, is to a seed company, 

3 that just wants me to grow oat seed for them and 

4 since nobody else in our area really participates 

5 in a lot of oats growing, you won't find it much 

6 in Central Illinois. They're happy to have me even 

7 though they're organic. I just saw them to them 

8 as a non-organic oat, even though it's produced 

9 organically.

10 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you. This is 

11 an area, I think, where we are seeing more focus 

12 needing to be put. It's really high on my radar 

13 and having input it from you and other farmers in 

14 the space is really important. So I really 

15 appreciate your time.

16 MR. KLOKKENGA: Yes. Well, thank you. 

17 I hope that you're able to find better ways for 

18 us to market the products that we produce.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Javier has a 

20 question for you.

21 MEMBER ZAMORA: Kris, thank you so much 
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1 for your comments and I feel that your feelings 

2 express that there is no clear method that is being 

3 utilized to identify where the fraud is happening. 

4 And I, as a grower, I hear a lot of people, you 

5 know, bringing the subject, but what do you have 

6 -- do you have an example of how to really identify 

7 these things? Do you think testing will probably 

8 just take care of it as a fellow member alluded 

9 to earlier? Instead of -- because it seems like 

10 paperwork has a greater chance to be, you know, 

11 kind of falsified and be creative with. So what 

12 do you see? How can this Board make things easier 

13 to identify where something out of order is 

14 happening?

15 MR. KLOKKENGA: I just think that --

16 so I don't have -- there's not one great idea that 

17 I'm -- that I can give you. But one thing that 

18 I would say is this, if you could have some kind 

19 of way that you are going to require that each 

20 person, like for the bill of lading example, like

21 me as a grower that I sell to the next elevator 
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1 who processes my grain and sells it onto a corn 

2 tortilla manufacturer, that they might be able to 

3 -- that you might be able to streamline that process 

4 amongst the producer, the middleman, and the 

5 end-user so that that could be done. I don't know 

6 that you're going to find -- I don't know what test 

7 to tell you to do and I'm not familiar with that, 

8 but I would just say streamlining that process and 

9 maybe just giving -- I don't know if you would call 

10 that all the paperwork that we do is antiquated, 

11 but maybe just finding out more of a helpful way 

12 using technology to be able to streamline that 

13 process. And, again, I'm sure that that would --

14 there's -- fraud can happen in that way as well, 

15 but something being able to go from the producer 

16 to the end-user and maybe having some way that they 

17 can identify that. Thank you.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

19 for fielding all these questions, Kris. Really 

20 appreciate your time today. Well, I'm -- and like 

21 I said, several times before, the farmer 
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1 perspective is invaluable. So thank you for 

2 making the time and taking it out of your schedule.

3 MR. KLOKKENGA: Thank you.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, folks, 

5 we've made it to the end of day 2, so that concludes 

6 today's public comment webinar and I can't thank 

7 everyone enough for taking the time out of their 

8 days to join us. This is what makes our community 

9 great and I'm really excited for next week's 

10 meeting. If there are any closing questions or 

11 comments from the Board, we can fill them now, 

12 otherwise, we will let you all to your day. All 

13 right. Well, thank you again, everybody.

14 MR. KLOKKENGA: Thank you.

15 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, everybody.

16 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jared Clarke

18 MEMBER ZAMORA: Adios.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. So 

20 thank you for the slides and next week's NOSB 

21 meeting, hope you all are there too. It's going 
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1 to be start on Tuesday, April 26 at noon Eastern 

2 and anything you'd like to say about that, 

3 Michelle?

4 MS. ARSENAULT: No. I think you're 

5 good. The link to join the meeting is on the NOSB 

6 meeting webpage. It's also at the top of your 

7 agenda.

8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

9 went off the record at 4:38 p.m.)

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21
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1

2

3

4
1 

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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

SPRING 2022 MEETING

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

APRIL 26, 2022

+ + + + +

The Board met via Videoconference at 

12:00 p.m., Nate Powell-Palm, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT

NATE POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH, Secretary

AMY BRUCH

BRIAN CALDWELL

JERRY D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

ELIZABETH GRAZNAK

RICK GREENWOOD

KIM HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

WOOD TURNER

JAVIER ZAMORA
2 

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NOP STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

DAVID GLASGOW, National Organic Program Associate

Deputy Administrator

ERIN HEALY, Standards Division Director

ANDREA HOLM, Materials Specialist

DEVON PATTILLO, Standards Acting Assistant 

Director

DR. JENNIFER TUCKER, National Organic Program 

Deputy Administrator; Designated Federal Officer

ALSO PRESENT

SEAN BABINGTON, Senior Climate Advisor, USDA

ADAM CHAMBERS, Scientific Lead for Environmental 

Markets, Natural Resources Conservation Service 

(NRCS)
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CONTENTS

Call to Order ................................. 4

Agenda Overview, NOP Introductions ............ 7

NOSB Introductions ............................ 7

Secretary's Report ........................... 31

USDA and AMS National Organic Program

Updates; NOP-NOSB Open Discussion ............ 39

Livestock Subcommittee (LS)

Topics:

2024 Sunset substances reviews:

Chlorhexidine Tolazoline .................... 150

Copper sulfate .............................. 156

Elemental sulfur ............................ 159

Lidocaine Glucose ........................... 161

Compliance, Accreditation, & Certification

Subcommittee (CACS) Update

Topics:

Proposal: NOP Risk Mitigation Table review .. 166

Discussion Document: Human Capital Management:

Supporting the Work of the NOSB ............. 174

Discussion Document: Oversight improvements to

deter fraud: Modernization of organic

traceability ................................ 193
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (12:00 p.m.)

3 MS. ARSENAULT: Our attendees are 

4 jumping up again here. Welcome, folks. So I think 

5 we'll get started. Good, Nate. Ready to get 

6 started?

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Let's do it.

8 MS. ARSENAULT: All right. So 

9 welcome, folks. It's day one of the National 

10 Organic Standards Board spring meeting. If you 

11 are -- attendees are in listen only mode, so you 

12 will not have access to your mic or a camera. The 

13 chat is enabled, however, so feel free to chat in, 

14 say hello, let people know where you're calling 

15 in from. And you can chat with each other, and 

16 you should be able to chat with everybody or one 

17 person if you so choose.

18 Chats are not part of the public record. 

19 So if you're asking questions of the board, we 

20 won't be answering those questions, and it won't 

21 be part of the record. We do have a 

22 transcriptionist on the line with us, and we do 
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1 have the live transcripts enabled. So if you go 

2 to the bottom part of your Zoom task bar -- might 

3 be at the top for you -- you will see the -- you'll 

4 see the CC button or the live transcript button. 

5 You can keep it on or turn it off if you don't 

6 care to watch it, and you can also adjust the font 

7 size by using the carrot next to the CC button.

8 You can customize your own view in Zoom 

9 as well. So where -- we'll be sharing slides in 

10 the main panel. You can make everything smaller, 

11 bigger, using the view button, which is in the upper 

12 right-hand side of your Zoom window. You can 

13 tailor it to what you want to see. The webinar 

14 is being recorded, and we will post the transcript 

15 on NOP website as soon as the -- it's available, 

16 which is usually a couple of weeks after the 

17 conclusion of the NOSB meeting. All right. 

18 Jenny, I'm going to turn it over to you to get us 

19 officially started.

20 DR. TUCKER: All right. So welcome. 

21 And good morning. Good afternoon. And good 

22 evening. Wherever you are, I know we have folks 
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1 from across many, many time zones today. Thank 

2 you all for being here. My name is Jennifer 

3 Tucker. I'm the Deputy Administrator of the 

4 National Organic Program. Welcome to all of our 

5 National Organic Standards Board members and our 

6 public audience.

7 After two successful public webinars 

8 last week, I am really glad to be with you these 

9 three days. I'd like to again, acknowledge and 

10 celebrate our four new board members, Liz Graznak 

11 from Missouri, Alison Johnson from California, Dr. 

12 Dilip Nandwani from Tennessee, and Javier Zamora 

13 from California. They started their work on the 

14 Board this spring. I'd like to give them all a 

15 round of a Zoom applause. So if you're at home, 

16 you can wave your hands into the camera and that's 

17 how we applaud on Zoom.

18 So this webinar continues our public 

19 meeting that started on April the 19th and runs 

20 through April 28th. Meeting access information 

21 for all meeting segments is posted on the NOSB 

22 meeting page on the USDA website. Transcripts for 
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1 all segments will be posted once completed.

2 This meeting, like other meetings of 

3 the Natural Organic Standards Board, will be run 

4 based on the Federal Advisory Committee Act and 

5 the Board's policy and procedures manual. I will 

6 act as the designated federal officer for all 

7 meeting segments. Let's take a look at the agenda, 

8 and I will introduce the NOPT.

9 First, the agenda. We are meeting from 

10 12:00 to 5:00 Eastern today, tomorrow, and 

11 Thursday, with an hour break in the middle of each 

12 day. Today, the board chair and secretary will 

13 get us started. We'll have two USDA guest speakers 

14 to talk about the Department's work on climate 

15 smart agriculture. We will follow that with an 

16 NOP update, and an NOP, NOSB discussion.

17 Then we'll move into subcommittee work, 

18 which will extend all the way into Thursday with 

19 closing activities and a look ahead. So turning 

20 to team introductions, I thank the national organic 

21 program team. Michelle Arsenault is our advisory 

22 board specialist. Michelle, you've now been with 
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1 us in the Board ten years, correct?

2 You're nodding, that's an amazing ten 

3 years. So her dedication to this work and to 

4 members over ten years makes a real difference in 

5 the organic sector. So Michelle, thank you. 

6 Let's all give Michelle a huge hand for ten years 

7 of service to this board.

8 I am also grateful for the leadership 

9 of our standards division director Erin Healy. 

10 Erin's leadership has been greatly appreciated as 

11 we have added and on-boarded new staff in standards 

12 this year, and we've moved a lot of rules ahead. 

13 So I've been very grateful to have her in that 

14 role.

15 Jared Clark is our national list 

16 manager and continues to do amazing work in 

17 supporting the world -- the board, advancing rules 

18 quickly, providing endless expertise on a variety 

19 of national list questions, and just being an all 

20 around really nice person and good guy. So Jared, 

21 glad you're here.

22 Andrea Holm is one of our three material 
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1 specialists in the program, has been doing fabulous 

2 work helping us present our work effectively on 

3 webinars like this. Andrea is always in the 

4 background, getting people promoted in this 

5 system, figuring things out, chatting with us on 

6 the side, on the things we need to pay attention 

7 to.

8 She's also been leading a special 

9 project to overhaul our petition substances 

10 database. And I believe that's going to be rolled 

11 out quickly. But she's really spearheaded that

12 in recent months. And as -- I think it's going 

13 to be a great service once launched.

14 And we have Devon Pattillo, who is 

15 currently our acting standards assistant director, 

16 and has worked extensively on current livestock 

17 roles, as well as many, many other briefing memos 

18 and documents. So thank you so much. So big 

19 applause to the NOPT. It takes a lot of people 

20 to make these meetings happen, and genuinely 

21 appreciate all of their support.

22 Next, Nate Powell-Palm, the Board 
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1 Chair, will introduce board members. All of these 

2 representatives devote hours and hours of 

3 volunteer time to serve the organic community. 

4 Most have not even met each other face to face yet, 

5 and yet are doing wonderful work together. So 

6 let's give the Board a full round of applause and 

7 appreciation. Thank you, Nate, in advance, for 

8 a great meeting. And I now turn it over to you.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Jenny. 

10 Really appreciate it. I think this is one of the 

11 more -- the most fun parts of the meeting is to 

12 get to know the board members a little bit. So 

13 I'm going to call on folks in alphabetical order. 

14 And if you would just give a little bit of 

15 background on what you do in the organic industry. 

16 If you're a farmer, what you grow. If you're in 

17 another sector, kind of how you came to organics, 

18 and what your everyday looks like would be great.

19 Also, where are you? What state do you 

20 hail from? And I think that gives everyone a 

21 little bit of a glimpse into the folks who are 

22 serving on the board right now. To get kicked off, 
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1 we have Amy Bruch, and then Brian Caldwell will 

2 be next. So, Amy, please go ahead.

3 MS. BRUCH: All right. Thanks, Nate. 

4 Hi, everybody. My name is Amy Bruch. I serve 

5 in the farmer's seat for the NOSB. I'm a sixth 

6 generation farmer and president of my family 

7 farming operation located in east central 

8 Nebraska. We grow a variety of different organic 

9 row crops -- organic and transitioned to organic 

10 grow crops, including blue and white corn for chips 

11 and tortillas, soy beans, small grains, pulses, 

12 oil seeds.

13 And in our operation is all irrigated. 

14 In addition to my family farm experience, my 

15 background is ag engineering. I've had 20 years 

16 in various agribusiness opportunities, including 

17 food production and farm management, both in 

18 several states and overseas as well. Very happy 

19 to be here and to be able to serve on the Board. 

20 Thank you.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Grateful for your 

22 service and your time. Brian is going to be next, 
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1 followed by Jerry.

2 MR. CALDWELL: Hey, everybody. Brian 

3 Caldwell. I am serving in a public interest and 

4 consumer interest seat on board. Sponsored by 

5 NOFA New York -- the Northeast Organic Farming 

6 Association of New York, that helped me get into 

7 this august body. And I'm retired from Cornell 

8 University, where I did research on organic farming 

9 for quite a few years. And I've had a small farm 

10 the whole time, even when I was working.

11 And now that I'm retired and I'm kind 

12 of focused more on the farm. I can't imagine how 

13 I did it all in my spare time back in the past, 

14 but I did, somehow. But we've been certified since 

15 1986, and started out with vegetables. But now 

16 it's pretty much converted all over to fruit and 

17 nut crops. We're in central New York state. And 

18 I guess that's it. Thank you very much.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Brian. 

20 Appreciate your service to the Board and your 

21 insights. Jerry's up next, followed by Carolyn.

22 DR. TUCKER: Jerry, you're muted.
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1 MR. D'AMORE: Thank you. May that be 

2 the last time today. I was just telling Nate that 

3 he had thrown me a monkey wrench because when I 

4 was doing the bulk of my owning and operating of 

5 production facilities that we didn't have the 

6 order.

7 MS. ARSENAULT: Jerry, you're a little 

8 faint. I can barely hear you.

9 MR. D'AMORE: I don't know how to fix 

10 that unless I just talk up.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: That better, 

12 definitely.

13 MR. D'AMORE: Okay. I thank -- thank 

14 you. I've been involved in the growing and 

15 marketing of fruits and vegetables for nearly 50 

16 years now. My start was in Saudi Arabia in the 

17 mid '70s, where I built and operated hydroponic 

18 farms on the Wadi Hanifa. For much of the '80s, 

19 I built, owned, operated both NFT and inert medium 

20 based hydroponic farms growing local profile 

21 crops, and buying crops, primarily tomatoes, 

22 peppers, cucumbers, and lettuces.
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1 And at the point where I was doing that, 

2 there was not an organic label. That was the point 

3 that I was trying to make earlier. I then moved 

4 to Turkey for six years with my family and 

5 represented Chiquita in the Black Sea region, 

6 including Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, and Russia. 

7 And by the end of the '90s, I settled in California 

8 and dedicated much of my time to berry crops for 

9 the next 22 years. Thank you very much, pleasure 

10 be with all of you, and thanks.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Jerry. 

12 Next up we have Carolyn, followed by Rick. 

13 Carolyn, please go ahead.

14 DR. DIMITRI: Thank you. I'm Carolyn 

15 Dimitri. I'm a professor at New York University. 

16 I'm an applied economist. Before I joined the 

17 NYU faculty, I was an economic researcher at the 

18 Economic Research Service of the Department of 

19 Agriculture. I sit in a consumer seat, and I have 

20 fairly extensive research, applied economic 

21 research body on the post farm segment of the 

22 organic sector. And I'm happy to be here. As well 
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1 as a consumer of organic food, and a supporter of 

2 organic food, thank you.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: And those numbers 

4 are important. Your research helps all of us 

5 communicate what organic says and what it means. 

6 So thank you for your work. Next up, we have Rick, 

7 followed by Liz.

8 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Well, hello 

9 everyone. Rick Greenwood, I'm in the 

10 environmental seat. Long time faculty member at 

11 UCLA in environmental health and epidemiology. 

12 Have been a certified organic avocado grower for 

13 about 15 years in Southern California, a 

14 medium-size farm, sort of a -- average for 

15 California. But the real problem we face, and I'm 

16 everyone has seen it, is drought. It's really 

17 devastating, in particular, the avocado grow, 

18 because they take so much water to grow.

19 But I came to this because my interest 

20 actually in science based public policy, and I also 

21 did a three-year term on the Haas avocado board 

22 as part of AMS. So happy to be here. Also the 
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1 longest serving member, and the only member whose 

2 actually been to an actual live meeting. So 

3 looking forward to getting back to that in -- when 

4 we go up to Northern California. So thank you.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Rick. We 

6 appreciate you being this bridge to everything that 

7 is in-person for us. Since yes, we have 14 folks 

8 who have never served on the Board at a public 

9 meeting, and Rick. All right, next up we have Liz, 

10 followed by Kim. Liz, please go ahead. Oh, 

11 you're still muted Liz

12 MR. GREENWOOD: How about that?

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Great.

14 MS. GRAZNAK: My name is Liz Graznak. 

15 I am in Central Missouri, and I'm a brand new board 

16 member, also serving in the environmental 

17 protection seat. I run and operate a small scale, 

18 about 11 acres, very highly diversified certified 

19 farm in Missouri. I have a CSA, community 

20 supported agriculture program. I sell 50 weeks 

21 a year at a farmer's market. It's the largest 

22 growers-only market in the state of Missouri. And 
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1 first generation farmer. So yeah. That's what 

2 I do. I'm a farmer.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: So we are very 

4 excited for your input, and thank you for your 

5 service. Next up is Kim, followed by Mindee.

6 MS. HUSEMAN: Good morning from 

7 Colorado. My name is Kimberly Huseman. I sit in 

8 a handlers seat. I am coming into my third year 

9 on the organic board. Got to meet some of my fellow 

10 -- call them classmates at an introduction meeting

11 right before everything went virtual. So very few 

12 people have I actually been able to spend time with, 

13 and I'm looking forward to our fall meeting in order 

14 to shake people's hands.

15 I work for Pilgrims. I have developed 

16 and I manage our organic ingredient procurement 

17 team. Been with the company for a little over 

18 eight years. We're a large scale poultry 

19 production, mostly across the Southeast, with 

20 specific dedicated organic production in North 

21 Carolina.

22 I've previously worked in both the 
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1 conventional and the organic sectors, whether it 

2 be feeding animals, where I also grew up on a large 

3 scale farming and ranching operation in southeast 

4 Wyoming, where we had about 300 head of cow-calf 

5 pairs, row crops, and alfalfa that fed into the

6 dairy market here in northern Colorado. Decided 

7 to be on the board for another year, and looking 

8 forward to all the things yet to come in the second 

9 half of our tenure.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: I cling to that intro 

11 meeting we all had with our class also, because 

12 it's our one proof that we're all real.

13 MS. HUSEMAN: That's right.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

15 time and service, Kim. Next up we have Mindee, 

16 followed by Allison.

17 MS. JEFFERY: Thank you. My name is 

18 Mindee Jeffrey. I'm in northern California, 

19 serving in the retailer seat. I spent about 20 

20 years around different organic retailing 

21 environments. Worker-owned co-op, a co-op, a 

22 co-op of retailers, but most of that time at Good 
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1 Earth Natural Foods in northern California. And 

2 sort of oddly got lucky in the pandemic in the 

3 changing of jobs.

4 I was able to move over from doing a 

5 lot of organic education in the stores for the 

6 consumers and the retailers to running their 

7 compost program. So I get to spend -- go three 

8 days a week in the stores and come back to the farm 

9 and learn about nutrients, and inputs, and row 

10 crops. So I'm super excited to be on the board. 

11 And I spent five years on the California Organic 

12 Products Advisory Committee, which really taught 

13 me a lot about how to listen to all sectors of the 

14 organic stakeholder community, and really learned 

15 a lot in that environment, really helping me in 

16 this environment. So thank you.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much. 

18 Your voice is invaluable. So thank you for your 

19 time and service. Next up, we have Allison, 

20 followed by Dilip.

21 MS. JOHNSON: Hi everyone. I'm 

22 Allison Johnson. I'm in the public interest 
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1 consumer seat, and I'm based in Oakland, 

2 California. I've spent my career in sustainable 

3 food systems kind of broadly, and I started in 

4 organic as a handling certifier at CCOF, back in 

5 my hometown of Santa Cruz, California. And after 

6 a few years there, kind of surveying the landscape 

7 and the challenges that our members face, I decided 

8 to go to law school to learn legalese and figure 

9 out how to wrangle our policy beast to better 

10 support all the people who I was interacting with 

11 every day.

12 So I currently work at the Natural 

13 Resources Defense Counsel tending to do policy 

14 advocacy, and change our policies to support 

15 organic and sustainable agriculture. I'm not a 

16 farmer, but a plant enthusiast, and I'm about to 

17 put in my first fruit trees ever. So I'm very 

18 excited about that, and happy to be here with you 

19 all.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

21 time and service, we really appreciate your 

22 insights. And you're about to be a farmer, so get 
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1 ready for that crown. Once that's -- once those 

2 fruit trees go in. Next step, we've got Dilip 

3 followed by by Logan.

4 DR. NANDWANI: Good morning. My name 

5 is Dilip Nandwani. I'm a professor at Tennessee 

6 State University and I do research, extension, and 

7 teaching in organic agriculture. My primary 

8 responsibility is to work with small farmers. So 

9 the research I've been doing in organic vegetable 

10 production and the fruits, as well as training to 

11 the farmers on organic certification process and 

12 regulations since almost ten years here in 

13 Tennessee.

14 I'm based in Nashville, and we do have 

15 a certified organic farm for research, education, 

16 and extension purpose where students, they come 

17 and do their research projects. And farmers, they 

18 come, producers, they come a small farm expo, and 

19 lot of things that extension events we do at the 

20 farm. As well as I teach a small kind of a course 

21 on organic agriculture principles. So far, 

22 organic agriculture as well as sustainable 
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1 agriculture. And I have a few books on organic 

2 agriculture, sustainable agriculture, and all 

3 that.

4 Prior to Tennessee, I was in the US 

5 Virgin Islands, beautiful island, where I was also 

6 teaching horticulture and organic agriculture. 

7 I've been working with minority growers in Virgin 

8 Islands and here in Tennessee. And prior to Virgin 

9 Islands, I was in American Pacific or Micronesia. 

10 Only few people didn't know that we have a land 

11 grant college in American Pacific. So those are 

12 beautiful islands, I spent almost 10 years there. 

13 Even before this organic seal came into existence 

14 in '90s, I spend there.

15 I'm serving on Tennessee Organic 

16 Growers Association, we call it TOGA board, as well 

17 as Southern Cover Crops Council board, SCCC, which 

18 is a regional board. I'm in Southern Nashville, 

19 so located in southern here in Tennessee. My 

20 primary research, as I mentioned, fruits and 

21 vegetables, basically production issues, dealing 

22 and helping farmers.
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1 I do serve on the chair on Organic World 

2 Group and International Society of Horticultural 

3 Science, on subtropical and tropical fruits, which 

4 I just give up as soon as I got on NOSB. And also, 

5 I served as a chair for organic horticulture in 

6 American Society for Horticultural Science. I'm 

7 glad to be here, very honored. Thank you.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: It's with no small 

9 amount of pleasure that we get to say -- when we 

10 have a question for Dilip, he literally wrote the 

11 book on it. So we're really grateful for your time 

12 and expertise. Next up, we have Logan Petrey, 

13 followed by Kyla Smith.

14 MS. PETREY: Hi, I'm Logan Petrey. 

15 I'm in the farmer seat, fourth generation farmer 

16 as conventional farmers go, so I'm first generation 

17 with organics. I currently am a farm manager for 

18 Grimmway Farms in the southeast. It's their only 

19 operation here, and we're actually in north 

20 Florida. And just to echo Rick's statement about 

21 the water crisis that could be in California. So 

22 Grimmway is looking to go in other regions and we 
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1 are -- we're here. We're trying it out. It's very 

2 different from California, for lots of different 

3 reasons.

4 But we -- our main crop here is carrots. 

5 That's what carrots supply. I didn't know that, 

6 until I got Grimmway. We grow different produce 

7 from where I grew up, but -- and so among the care, 

8 it's of course organic. You have a lot of 

9 different rotational crops, including other veg 

10 items, corn, soybeans, peanuts, beans, you know, 

11 those things. And so again, trying to figure this 

12 out, and excited to be here and to represent 

13 Grimmway, which is one of the largest organic 

14 vegetable growers in the country. So thank you.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

16 Logan. We're really grateful to have your voice 

17 on this board. So thank you for your time and 

18 service. Next up, we have Kyla Smith, followed 

19 by Wood.

20 MS. SMITH: Thanks, Nate. Hi, 

21 everybody, my name is Kyla Smith. I'm serving in 

22 the certifier seat. My day job is -- has me --
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1 that I've been working with Pennsylvania Certified 

2 Organic, which is a USDA accredited certifier, 

3 based in Pennsylvania, but we certify across the 

4 US, but mostly up and down the East Coast. I'm 

5 currently serving in the certification director 

6 role there, but I've done almost every job. It's 

7 like I -- it's what I like to say. I've done 

8 inspection, policy work, review work, and I've been 

9 in certification for almost 20 years.

10 And I look forward to going to an 

11 in-person meeting for sure, because I've been a 

12 long time NOSB groupie, and so have attended lots 

13 of meetings over the year, but on the other side 

14 of the table. So I look forward to being with you 

15 all in Sacramento. And I'm just, yeah, excited 

16 to be working with Nate and Mindee in the leadership 

17 of the Board, as I'm serving in the secretary role 

18 currently, and it's been super fun.

19 And I'm just hoping to bring the 

20 certifier voice into these conversations, as we're 

21 the ones that have to sort of figure all -- most 

22 of these things out, all the rules and how they 
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1 actually apply, boots on the ground. So sort of 

2 that conduit between the producer and the program.

3 And so we aim for consistency. I'm a cross 

4 certifier, and so the work that the Board does is 

5 super important to try to inch that needle towards 

6 consistency everyday. So thanks for allowing me 

7 this honor of being in this role. It's fun.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: The honor's ours. 

9 Thank you for stepping up and serving as -- in the 

10 secretary seat, but also on the board. You -- your 

11 voice is incredibly valuable, and we really 

12 appreciate your time. Next up is Wood, followed

13 by Javier.

14 MR. TURNER: Hey, everyone. I'm Wood 

15 Turner, and I'm also thrilled to be in my third 

16 year of this kind of unique public service that 

17 we call the NOSB. It's been an incredible 

18 experience for me so far. I am the head of Global 

19 Impact for environmental and social impact first 

20 for agriculture capital, and I'm based in Berkeley, 

21 California. We're a grower, packer, shipper of 

22 blueberries, hazelnuts, citrus, and table grapes, 
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1 specifically. And relevant to this work is our 

2 roles in organic blueberry and table grapes 

3 producer.

4 I'm trained as an environmental planner 

5 and designer. I grew up in rural North Carolina, 

6 but I spent my career in Washington State, New 

7 Hampshire, and California. Focused on and spent 

8 my career 30 years -- goes by really fast, really 

9 -- 30 years focused on sustainability, spanning 

10 the non-profit consulting and then more recently 

11 with building purpose driven brands.

12 I -- previously to joining agriculture 

13 capital and moved to California, I was in New 

14 Hampshire leading sustainability of personal farm. 

15 So have experience in permanent crops, but also 

16 in the dairy world. And I'll try my best to bring 

17 that experience today on this work every day. So 

18 thanks.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: We really appreciate 

20 your time and input. I think as part of our --

21 Kim, and my, and Wood's original class, I really 

22 am grateful that I got to meet you in person and 
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1 excited to see you again in the fall. Lastly, is 

2 going to be Javier, and then I will finish us out.

3 MR. ZAMORA: Hi, good morning to all 

4 of you. Buenos dias. Javier Zamora from 

5 beautiful Wattsonville. This is my ten. That's 

6 farming, not really Cancun. This is truly an honor 

7 for me to be on the farmer's seat for the NOSB. 

8 I am a first generation farmer in America, 

9 probably fourth generation coming out of Mexico, 

10 from my parents.

11 I grow strawberries, raspberries, 

12 vegetables, flowers, all certified organic through 

13 CCOF here in beautiful Santa Cruz. And it's --

14 I'm bringing just the experience of boots on the 

15 ground on a daily basis. I was actually moving 

16 boxes this morning before I came in the office to 

17 be in front of you. My hope is that I can represent 

18 the small mid-size grower, especially the Latino 

19 farmers that are -- they need a little more help 

20 bridging the gap that exist these days among the 

21 farming communities, especially organic. Muchas 

22 gracias.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

2 your time and contributions, Javier. I think 

3 every time I get the chance to reflect on our board, 

4 I always come back to how incredible it is. The 

5 expertise that we all bring, and how rich the 

6 dialogues are that we have. And from farmers, 

7 actually in the field, jumping on calls from the 

8 cell phone -- myself being one of those -- to folks, 

9 who can really bring the insights into how we can 

10 prove this incredible movement that we're all part 

11 of.

12 I sit in real gratitude to you-all. 

13 So my name is Nate Powell-Palm. I'm based out in 

14 Bozeman, Montana, and behind me is my last year's 

15 crop of field peas. We raise yellow peas, and 

16 flax, and durham, as well as beef cattle and 

17 forages. For about ten years, I've also served 

18 as an organic inspector, inspecting in about 41 

19 states, doing a little more than 3,000 inspections 

20 around the country.

21 And there's been moments as a farmer 

22 and as an inspector that I really appreciate folks 
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1 like Kyla keeping this whole band wagon together 

2 as a certifier, because it is a heavy lift. As 

3 we dive in today, I think that there's a lot of 

4 really great things for reflect upon, which I'll 

5 save for in just a bit. But I wanted to just 

6 express my most sincere gratitude to my fellow 

7 board members.

8 It's a volunteer position. Everyone 

9 shows up with all of their expertise and hard work, 

10 and I can't think of -- I don't think I'll ever 

11 have a greater honor than the chance to serve on 

12 this board with this group. So really grateful 

13 that we get to do it together. And with that, we 

14 are going to toss it over to Kyla for the 

15 secretary's report.

16 MS. SMITH: Thanks, Nate. The minutes 

17 were provided to all the board members well ahead 

18 of the meeting for review. And so asking now, do 

19 you have -- or do you accept the meeting minutes 

20 from October 2021 of the NOSB meeting as they are 

21 written, or are there any corrections? I see no 

22 corrections. So with that, we can call the minutes 
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1 from the October 2021 NOSB meeting approved, and 

2 I will hand it back to you, Nate.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. We're 

4 doing great on timing, wow, right to the minute. 

5 So I -- I'm always grateful for the chair's report 

6 opportunity. I was thinking back to my 

7 predecessor's really insightful report on how 

8 we're doing as a board, but ultimately, where we 

9 need to go to harness this incredible movement that 

10 we're all part of. So as I was thinking about what 

11 I'd like to share with you all about the state of 

12 the board and about my vision that I hope we're 

13 able to see come to fruition.

14 A little bit of background on my 

15 experience with organics. So I somehow convinced 

16 my parents when I was 12 that they should buy me 

17 three bred cows so that I could be a rancher. And 

18 while they said, we don't have the money to buy 

19 them for you, you can go out and get a loan to buy 

20 them yourself. And somehow the Montana Department 

21 of Agriculture said, sure, we'll give a 12-year-old 

22 a loan. And that's, I think, an example of 
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1 government working really well.

2 So I was able to get this loan that 

3 allowed me to buy three bred cows and start my small 

4 cow-calf operation. We really quickly -- I 

5 learned that three bred cows was not going to make 

6 a career, even for a 12-year-old at the time. And 

7 I needed to figure out where is there more value. 

8 Where is there a way that I could be realizing 

9 more value for the products, the food that I'm 

10 creating.

11 And so I got hooked up into the the world 

12 of organic through a couple of ladies, about an 

13 hour from me, who made organic chicken feed. And 

14 they introduced me to this world that folks just 

15 do things differently. They take care of each 

16 other differently. They take care of the land 

17 differently. And so building on that, I've been 

18 able to ultimately realize this career in 

19 agriculture that I was always a little shaky on 

20 if it would actually come to be.

21 While doing that in building my 

22 operation, I had the chance to see a lot of 
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1 operations in action as an organic inspector. And 

2 so for 10 years, I saw this promise of organic lived 

3 out in factories and on farms across America. What 

4 does organic food mean for everybody? And I think 

5 when I look at how lucky I've been to be able to 

6 start a first generation operation that provides 

7 a living for myself, that's something that I've 

8 tried to figure out.

9 What is it that makes it possible for 

10 me to pass this on, to not only the next generation, 

11 but the next five years? How do we keep this going 

12 in a way that folks like myself can realize these 

13 opportunities? First generation farmers, 

14 historically disadvantaged farmers. How do we 

15 make it so that organic is this vehicle to creating 

16 a world of agriculture that we also believed in?

17 When I first got the call from Jenny 

18 saying that I had been appointed to the Board, one 

19 thing that immediately popped into my mind was, 

20 maybe this isn't such a good idea to serve. It's 

21 a big deal, it's a big job, but it's also pretty 

22 contentious. You know, I've heard nothing but the 
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1 stories of board members being like, oh, man. I 

2 don't know why I did this. This is a lot of work. 

3 This is not a lot of love for -- from the community 

4 when it comes to making these hard decisions.

5 And so I went into my service with that 

6 in the back of my mind, how do we ultimately realize 

7 the potential of this board? And I think I 

8 realized it over the course of these three years 

9 so far through incredible collaboration. And I 

10 don't know if I've just lucked out and my fellow 

11 board members are folks who look around every day 

12 and say, how do we really take the opportunity we've 

13 been given as members and as leaders of the organic 

14 community, and make some change?

15 And so again, I thank all of you, my 

16 fellow board members, for the incredible hard work 

17 that you've put in making this beast happen. When 

18 we look at the potential of organics and the 

19 potential of this collaboration, I also look around 

20 to our place in fighting climate change. When we 

21 consider the potential that organic has to be the 

22 climate smart solution, we're really looking at 
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1 26,000 certified operations and many thousand 

2 more, who are potentially transiting to organic, 

3 as folks who have in their own power in the soil 

4 beneath their feet, in the practices they use on 

5 the farm, the potential to really scale up a real 

6 meaningful fight against climate change.

7 And I think one thing when I look around 

8 -- and I realize I'm on the younger side of board 

9 chairs. But when I look around, I do think we have 

10 very little time. We don't have time to be ever 

11 fighting amongst ourselves. We don't have time 

12 to be doing anything but looking really straight 

13 ahead, figuring out where is the collaboration and 

14 where is the opportunity to pull together towards 

15 this shared vision -- the shared, hopeful future 

16 reality.

17 And I think we're doing that on NOSB 

18 right now, which is why every time I call into one 

19 of our subcommittee calls, I'm really excited. 

20 I think in the past year, we've had a lot of new 

21 members come on and each one of those members has, 

22 I think exceeded everyone's expectations for how 
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1 much better we can get with every single new member. 

2 And what we can realize as a team.

3 And I think that we'll see over the next 

4 few days that we are crushing it. There is a lot 

5 of hard work, hard decisions being made, and folks 

6 are bringing their very best writing, their very 

7 best debates to this discussion. When looking 

8 back at the fall meeting, I think an example of 

9 our deep and really healthy collaboration was the 

10 vote on ammonia extracts, that we were able to have 

11 a tough debate and really hear all sides and have 

12 folks walk away feeling like, we were heard, and 

13 this is nothing but an opportunity to grow.

14 We were able to have something that I 

15 thought was, you know, possibly a point of fissure 

16 for the community, ultimately get worked out, get 

17 voted upon, realized fairly good unanimity, and 

18 leave each other still texting each other high 

19 fives. That this is still something we all want 

20 to be a part of. This is still something that is 

21 meaningful to all of us.

22 So I think when we talk about what we 
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1 perceive as existential crises in organic, I think 

2 we all want to remember that this is still so worth 

3 protecting. No matter how hard the debates, no 

4 matter what we deem our wins or our losses, the 

5 movements, the creation of the organic standards 

6 is something we can all agree upon is worth fighting 

7 for and worth defending, and ultimately worth all 

8 of our time and our expertise.

9 So as we move in today, we're going to 

10 have a lot of discussions about how we improve 

11 organics, and we're going to have some really great 

12 debates about where we think it should go. But 

13 at the end of the day, I am really grateful to you 

14 all, my fellow board members, for taking such an 

15 exceptional professional approach to this work and 

16 making it so that we all feel safe, we all feel 

17 heard, and, especially we feel like we're doing 

18 the best we can to make meaningful change. So I 

19 realize I'm a little bit ahead of schedule, but 

20 with that, I would like to hand it back to Dr. 

21 Tucker.

22 DR. TUCKER: Nate, thank you so, so 
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1 much for those comments, and thank you to all the 

2 board members. Yeah. Let's give Nate a round of 

3 applause. Thank you, Jerry. Very, very, very 

4 nicely put. And a true honor to work with all of

5 you. I'm so glad we take the time to do the board 

6 introductions at the beginning of this process. 

7 It is an exercise in democracy, but also for me, 

8 humility of seeing the backgrounds of this board 

9 and the talent that you bring to the table, so thank 

10 you very, very much.

11 And Nate, I'm really glad that you 

12 talked a bit about climate and climate smart 

13 agriculture. The first part of the NOP update here 

14 is going to be listening to a couple of folks from 

15 USDA talk about climate smart agriculture. So I 

16 can see a flurry of activity in the background. 

17 We're trying to get the first speaker on, and so 

18 Sean Babington will be joining us, hopefully in 

19 just a second here. He is the -- a senior climate 

20 advisor for USDA and is in very, very high demand 

21 across the department, so we're giving him a couple 

22 of minutes to log in.
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1 MR. BABINGTON: I'm here.

2 DR. TUCKER: Yeah. Okay. So let me 

3 give the formal introduction then for Sean, it's 

4 great to have you here. Sean is the USDA senior 

5 climate advisor. He works to help farmers and 

6 ranchers address the challenges they face as a 

7 result of climate change. He works across 

8 multiple mission areas within USDA, hence making 

9 him a very busy guy, to find solutions that help 

10 operations adapt, become more resilient, and 

11 mitigate problems.

12 Sean previously handled committee 

13 business pertaining to forestry, pesticides, and 

14 climate change for the US Senate Committee on 

15 Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry. He also 

16 served as a senior policy advisor for Energy and 

17 Natural Resources, and is an adjunct lecturer for 

18 Georgetown University's environmental studies 

19 program. So John -- or Sean, we're so grateful 

20 to have you here today. Welcome to the NOSB 

21 meeting.

22 MR. BABINGTON: Thanks, Jennifer. 
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1 It's really great to be here and I appreciate the 

2 -- the kind introduction and -- and the invitation 

3 to spend a few minutes with you all. So I was 

4 thinking, I'm just going to give sort of a handful 

5 of minutes on sort of how, from my perspective of 

6 the department, you know, USDA wide sort of 

7 approaching climate smart agriculture.

8 And, you know, with a little bit more 

9 attention paid to how organic systems fit into 

10 that, and, you know, maybe talk a little bit about 

11 some of our work going forward that we're carrying 

12 forward across mission areas. Obviously, many 

13 folks are familiar with our partnerships for 

14 climate smart commodities program, which I'll talk 

15 a little bit about. But also want to talk about 

16 some of our other work.

17 And then just sort of, you know, I'll 

18 close and note that there might be a little bit 

19 of a statement or some feedback that folks want 

20 to share with me. But more than anything, just 

21 thank you. Appreciate your collaboration. I 

22 see, just scrolling through really quickly, some 
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1 old friends here I spent a dozen plus years on the 

2 hill most recently, as Jennifer mentioned, working 

3 for Chairwoman Stabenow. And it's great to be back 

4 in touch with folks and have these opportunities.

5 So I think, you know, I'll start out 

6 sort of macro level, you know, broadly speaking, 

7 you all know this agriculture, forestry rural 

8 America are actually uniquely affected by a warming 

9 climate, and climate change, and the impacts that 

10 we're seeing. But also uniquely positioned to 

11 really be a meaningful part of the solution here 

12 to help on the mitigation side.

13 And with the right policies and 

14 incentives, us in the secretary's office and across 

15 USDA, I think we feel that climate smart 

16 agriculture, forestry sort of rural clean energy 

17 solutions that the department can help promote, 

18 can really create new -- both new revenue 

19 opportunities for producers, but also just 

20 strengthen rural communities that we're really 

21 thinking about all the time at the department here.

22 You know, one thing that the secretary 
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1 I think is particularly eloquent on, is, you know, 

2 it's not just an opportunity to think about 

3 additional revenue opportunities, but it's also 

4 an opportunity to think about sort of flipping the 

5 traditional energy and sort of climate discussion 

6 on its head a little bit. Right now, we see, you 

7 know, a lot of the resources, and the energy, and 

8 excitement, and the investment on the coasts and 

9 in urban centers.

10 And historically, we've seen natural 

11 resources, whether they be fossil fuels, or fiber, 

12 or whatever taken off the land, taken from rural 

13 areas, shipped to urban areas to see that value-add 

14 happen outside of those rural communities that the 

15 raw materials were derived from. And I think that 

16 this notion of how do we drive climate smart 

17 production, climate smart commodities, and the 

18 value-add that we can drive there, can help with 

19 some of that reinvestment in rural communities that 

20 we all care about so much.

21 So the department, you know, the 

22 Biden-Harris USDA under Secretary Vilsack's 
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1 leadership has really embarked upon an across the 

2 department effort on climate. We're thinking not 

3 just about traditional conservation programs and 

4 traditional farmer facing programs, but really 

5 everything that we do. We're looking at policies 

6 that are voluntary, flexible, led by producers.

7 As you all know, if the policies we're 

8 promoting don't work for producers, they're not 

9 going to work for the climate, right? We need to 

10 meet folks where they're at and think about this 

11 from grassroots bottom-up, rather than a top-down 

12 approach. And all along the way and everything 

13 we're doing in climate, we're thinking about 

14 scientific and rigorous monitoring, greenhouse gas 

15 accounting. Those are some of our north stars, 

16 right? We need to make sure that we're checking 

17 our math and that we're thinking about this in a 

18 very science based way.

19 And while we're doing that, we want to 

20 make sure that everyone has an opportunity to 

21 benefit here. We're not just talking about large 

22 row crops in the Midwest, right? We're talking 
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1 about small and medium size farmers, organic 

2 production systems, conventional, large and small 

3 specialty crops. And really the diversity not 

4 just of crops and regions that USDA serves, but 

5 the diversity of producers.

6 Underserved and folks that have --

7 historically USDA had not done a terribly good job 

8 of serving are a really meaningful part of how we 

9 think about climate. So we're really excited 

10 about all this. I've mentioned that we're not just 

11 thinking about, you know, our traditional 

12 conservation programs or just working through 

13 NRCS. We're thinking about our research agencies. 

14 We're thinking about international 

15 opportunities.

16 Some folks may know that the secretary 

17 launched the agricultural innovation mission for 

18 climate last year, and we have many partners across 

19 the globe who are really thinking about, how do 

20 we redouble that investment in agricultural 

21 research and innovation that can drive a lot of 

22 these practices that we want to see on the ground? 
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1 We joined something called the Global Methane 

2 Pledge, which is a really important part of all 

3 this climate work. Folks think about carbon as 

4 the only thing we're thinking about here. But when 

5 we talk about ag, we think about methane and nitrous 

6 oxide and there's a really important body work 

7 going on there.

8 As many of you know, the USDA is home 

9 to the Forest Service. We've got a robust body 

10 of work happening over with our friends at the 

11 Forest Service, some of you may have seen that the 

12 President Biden signed an executive order last 

13 Friday on Earth Day for -- pertaining to 

14 strengthening our forests, including looking at 

15 how we preserve our -- some of our most carbon-rich 

16 forest. Our old-growth and mature stands across 

17 our National Forest System, but also just across 

18 the country.

19 So there's a big body work going there. 

20 And then we do get to our traditional conservation 

21 programs administered by NRCS and FSA, and thinking 

22 about how we can really orient and point those 
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1 towards climate smart outcomes in a way that is, 

2 again, based on existing relationships and 

3 existing body of work. And then what I alluded 

4 to earlier, the partnerships for climate smart 

5 commodities program.

6 As many folks know, and there's been 

7 a fair amount of interest in this, certainly a ton 

8 of interest and even a lot written about it, but 

9 the secretary in February, went to Lincoln 

10 University of Missouri in Jefferson City, Missouri 

11 and 1890s HBCU, and announced this $1 billion 

12 partnership for climate smart commodities program. 

13 We are right now, accepting applications for this 

14 program. The first deadline is coming up at the 

15 end of next week, May 6.

16 And we're really looking to provide 

17 targeted grant funding to meet the national and 

18 global demand for climate smart commodities, and 

19 expanding the market for these commodities. We 

20 think that there is an important role for USDA to 

21 play in developing this new market. And while 

22 we're thinking about applications for this, we're 
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1 really looking at folks to show their math. I 

2 mentioned this a little earlier, but monitoring 

3 verification, reporting is going to be a very 

4 important part of it.

5 And it's a very flexible program, 

6 right? We've got a wide range of public and 

7 private entities, farm groups, states, 

8 non-profits, businesses, tribal governments, 

9 higher education institutions, right? Our land 

10 grant universities, all eligible to apply. And 

11 we -- really, I want to emphasize this, see organic 

12 producers being an important part of both this 

13 program and our broader climate work, and hope that 

14 you all see yourselves in this broader work.

15 There are so many great lessons and 

16 tools, you know, and so many people on this call 

17 and across the broader community. Just such 

18 leaders in sustainable agriculture, and 

19 cultivating those tools and that expertise that 

20 can really, really benefit us in this broader 

21 climate discussion that we're having right now.

22 So, you know, a few specifics and I know 
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1 you won't know this. I just want to say it out 

2 loud. Some of the things that organic does best 

3 that organics, you know, it's part of the program, 

4 right? Improving water quality and minimizing 

5 erosion; crop rotations and cover cropping to 

6 promote ecological balance and conserve bio 

7 diversity; a whole host of things that you all are 

8 such experts in on improving soil health, which 

9 in turn stores more carbon.

10 Those are all critical, critical 

11 knowledge bases and sets of practices for us as 

12 we think about the Department's work on climate 

13 and how to scale up some of this climate smart 

14 agriculture work across the country. So again, 

15 I just wanted to say one, thank you again for having 

16 me. We at the department feel that organic 

17 producers are a really critical part of this 

18 discussion, and really have such expertise we're 

19 really, frankly, going to need as we move forward 

20 on this.

21 So we're really looking forward to 

22 continuing to work with you-all. Our colleagues, 
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1 certainly at the National Organic Program, but the 

2 Board and others in this space. Learning from 

3 you-all and moving forward together on this really 

4 important climate discussion.

5 Jennifer, unless I missed anything, I 

6 think I'll wrap it up and just, again, say thank 

7 you. Again, great to see some friends on the 

8 screen here. If you're ever in the Whitten 

9 Building, please stop by, darken my door here, and 

10 I'll wrap it up and let you all continue with your 

11 meeting.

12 DR. TUCKER: Sean, thank you so much. 

13 We would like to give the board chair just an 

14 opportunity to say a couple of words back that the 

15 board is really engaged in, in the climate 

16 agriculture -- climate smart agriculture 

17 discussion. So, Nate, you want to take the mic 

18 for a couple of minutes here.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Sure. Sean, thank 

20 you so much for joining us today. This is really 

21 -- is a meaningful connection for us all to have 

22 this conversation in one spot. So really want to 
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1 say, thank you for your time. I was just so stoked 

2 when we saw the announcement for the $1 billion 

3 for climate smart commodities. One thing that I 

4 would -- I -- in reading the text, it sounds like 

5 the goal of the program is to ultimately identify 

6 those practices that are climate smart, but then 

7 help us foster a marketplace so that producers can 

8 ultimately realize a private market solution to 

9 making sure that they can get a premium for climate 

10 smart commodities.

11 As we roll through some of the more 

12 specifics that we're looking at at practices, like 

13 nitrogen usage that you mentioned, reducing NOx, 

14 and soil carbon sequestration. I think that 

15 there's been sort of an underselling of organics 

16 as far as what we can bring to the table, having 

17 already created this marketplace that rewards 

18 farmers for these practices.

19 So when we look at NOx, I know that 

20 there's a lot of precision agriculture trying to 

21 figure out how do we reduce it and use it, right? 

22 Organics doesn't use it at all. And so when we 
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1 think about how quickly we can make these strides, 

2 looking to organic as a leader on nutrient 

3 management, because we are only using those inputs 

4 that are available on farm, or select inputs off 

5 farm. In looking at tillage, oftentimes soil --

6 organic gets kind of a bum rap for tillage.

7 But when we look at the entire rotation, 

8 oftentimes, organic is tilling less than 

9 conventional, because we usually have a perennial 

10 phase in the rotation, where we're able to realize 

11 several years without any steel in the ground. 

12 Manure management, we have inspectors on the ground 

13 monitoring for manure voluntarily from producers 

14 opting to be certified organic.

15 So I think the biggest thing that we're 

16 wondering about and hoping to engage on is how do 

17 we have USDA recognized organic as a climate smart 

18 practice. That seal being married right away to 

19 that claim that companies who are looking to invest 

20 in ESG and companies trying to figure out where 

21 do I put my climate smart supply chain efforts, 

22 my investment dollars.
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1 I think we're at sort of shaky spot 

2 right now because a lot of practices that are 

3 inherent to organic are being elevated, celebrated 

4 as a cover crops, NOx reduction. But all of that 

5 is already existing in organics, and we already 

6 have a marketplace. So we need to put some numbers 

7 behind organics. I realize that, and that's 

8 definitely the goal of engaging in the $1 billion 

9 for climate smart solutions.

10 But on a broader base, I was wondering 

11 if you had any input on how we could better message 

12 that we've got five percent of the food market 

13 already signed up, ready to go in this marketplace 

14 that has all the infrastructure built. We have 

15 consumer confidence, we have a regulatory system, 

16 we have deep public investments, and it seems like 

17 it's a right fit for what this Climate Smart 

18 Commodities Program is looking to do.

19 So is there a way we can see organic 

20 as a fire to which we need to just add gas to try 

21 to get it bigger and bigger. And I realize with 

22 climate change, we do not have any time for us 
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1 versus them. This is not organic versus 

2 conventional. It's just hoping that we might be 

3 we'll say, here's one example of everything being 

4 done right. And if you-all want to copy, that's 

5 great. If we want to add, you know, the confidence 

6 that USDA acknowledging organic as climate smart 

7 solution would really help companies invest and 

8 grow this market that we know has pretty solid legs.

9 MR. BABINGTON: Yeah, thanks, Nate. 

10 And I really, one, just appreciate the perspective 

11 and sort of the candor, but also the constructive 

12 approach that you just took in all of that. I think 

13 it isn't us versus them, right? It's too important 

14 of an issue, and it's too urgent to say it's not 

15 organic or conventional. It's not big mess --

16 Midwestern row crops versus specialty crops in 

17 California. It's got to be all of us, and we got 

18 to move forward together on this stuff.

19 I do think to your point about, you 

20 know, how can we kind of, you know, elevate the 

21 discussions surrounding the good stewards that 

22 organic have been for a long time and what they 
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1 bring to this climate discussion. This type of 

2 dialogue, this kind of meeting, I know there was 

3 a -- an exchange between the program, National 

4 Organic Program and the Standards Board month 

5 before last about kind of, you know, some of those 

6 synergies that we can just talk more about, because 

7 there is such a great story to tell here.

8 And I think that, you know, you have 

9 my commitment certainly to continue to engage with 

10 you all to to tell that story. The specific 

11 question about sort of how do we match up seals 

12 and certifications and stuff. That one's a little 

13 bit funny, right? And we need to get into that 

14 and figure that out. And we've got process 

15 verified and all sorts of other things, but we're 

16 committed to having it, and this is just such a 

17 group of leaders, you know, really in this kind 

18 of sustainable agriculture that, you know, was 

19 started before we were thinking necessarily about 

20 climate but there's dovetail so well with this 

21 exact discussion.

22 So I think, you know, I would love to 
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1 just keep the dialogue going, and look forward to 

2 hopefully seeing a lot of participation in the 

3 partnerships program. As I mentioned, the first 

4 big deadline is next week. But, you know, when 

5 we think about that program, we are hoping to learn 

6 so much about what's out there, who can show their 

7 math, who's got, you know, the MMRV -- measurement, 

8 monitoring, reporting, verification -- behind 

9 their proposals, and then allow us to learn an awful 

10 lot about that as we take our next steps.

11 As the department working with Congress 

12 on the 2023 Farm Bill, et cetera, this will be the 

13 first one since 2014 that I'm not on the hill for, 

14 and I look forward to not being there for those 

15 really late nights. But I'm a little sad to miss 

16 out on what is a really exciting process, I think, 

17 for all of agriculture. So anyway, I really 

18 appreciate the sentiments. I appreciate the 

19 opportunity with you-all, and certainly to have 

20 a constructive dialogue going forward.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. We 

22 cannot thank you enough for your time, and really 
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1 appreciate you coming today.

2 DR. TUCKER: Thank you, Sean, very, 

3 very, very much. Let's give another round of 

4 applause. Really appreciate your time and being 

5 here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all 

6 that you're doing, and for being with us today. 

7 So thank you.

8 MR. BABINGTON: All right. Great to 

9 see you-all. Enjoy the rest of the meeting.

10 DR. TUCKER: Okay. Be well. I'm now 

11 going to turn it over to our second USDA climate 

12 speaker. This is Adam Chambers. So Adam, I see 

13 you are on with us. Thank you. So Adam is with 

14 NRCS, Natural Resources Conservation Service. He 

15 is the scientific lead for environmental markets. 

16 And so we've had some great conversation leading 

17 into this meeting.

18 His team focuses on leveraging markets 

19 that value ecosystem services, building strategic 

20 partnerships and getting more conservation on the 

21 ground. And so his work is supported by NRCS Farm 

22 Bill programs, and works to increase voluntary 
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1 conservation practices on working agricultural 

2 lands in the United States.

3 And so Dr. Chambers' project work has 

4 focused on the applied sciences, reducing air 

5 pollutants and greenhouse gases, and providing a 

6 merging carbon market opportunities for US land 

7 owners and agricultural producers. And so Adam, 

8 thank you so, so much for being here, taking the 

9 time to be with us. And we turn the floor to you.

10 DR. CHAMBERS: Hey, thank you, 

11 everyone. I look forward to the day that we're 

12 all in the same room again. I just cannot wait. 

13 Thank you, Dr. Tucker. And thank you, Mr. 

14 Babington, for giving the great introduction. 

15 I'll try to take us maybe a step on down the 

16 quantification path. And made -- I'll try to touch 

17 a little bit on that challenging quantification 

18 piece that you touched on with nitrous oxide as 

19 well. That's always -- that can always be quite, 

20 quite challenging.

21 I was going to just try to share my 

22 screen and go through a quick few slides so that 
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1 we can all kind of work off of a common denominator 

2 if you might. And it's relevant -- so rather than 

3 you having to see me, we can show some slides. 

4 So I think you can see slides maybe if I can get 

5 a thumbs up from somebody or -- there we go, one 

6 more step to go.

7 So yeah, I'm Adam Chambers. I work for 

8 NRCS, and I've worked for NRCS for quite a while. 

9 I work on conservation practices. So voluntary 

10 conservation practices, delivering greenhouse gas 

11 mitigation benefits, as kind of what Nate talked 

12 about, and carbon sequestration benefits. Now, 

13 what I want to do is talk about the -- everything

14 that Nate touched on, which is Adam Chambers works 

15 in the -- yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly, 

16 now, let's put the quantification to work and prove 

17 that in the numbers.

18 And then can we put the numbers forward 

19 that justify our scientific assertions that we 

20 make, or the -- the -- the, you know, kind of the 

21 hunch. I mean, I really trust in humanity and our 

22 intuition, but I also like to work with numbers 
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1 and see the quantification. So as we all know --

2 and I think this was really highlighted with Mr. 

3 Babington 's overview, and Dr. Tucker as well. 

4 We are the first generation to fully understand 

5 this problem of climate change, and we're the last 

6 with the ability to solve it.

7 These aren't my words. I'm borrowing 

8 them from other climate scientists, but this --

9 we got to be all in it. We -- all in it, all 

10 together, right? And this is our opportunity for 

11 the folks who were -- who are inhabiting the top 

12 of the earth. At this time, we understand it. 

13 We understand how to solve for it. And now we got 

14 to get to work.

15 We know that working lands agriculture 

16 can deliver. We know that forestry can deliver. 

17 We know that industry can deliver. We know that 

18 every sector has to be involved, and as Mr. 

19 Babington mentioned, it's a full sector 

20 prioritization. And we're trying to reduce the 

21 carbon footprint across all sectors through -- and 

22 in NRCS, we have voluntary, real, quantifiable, 
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1 atmospheric benefits that -- these are called 

2 climate solutions.

3 But then in parallel, we have to produce 

4 the food, the fiber, and the fuel that we need for 

5 the world. So I hope that you all will see 

6 yourselves in all the slides here. And I really 

7 want to kind of put an exclamation point on that, 

8 because it's inclusive. This is an everybody on 

9 board. We also know -- here's another climate 

10 change overview. If you look at the left, we've 

11 got carbon sequestration and greenhouse gas 

12 mitigation. If we can increase this now, we can 

13 reduce the cost of adaptation and resilience in 

14 the future.

15 We also know, if we don't make 

16 investments now, as we talked about these 

17 challenging gases, they live in the atmosphere for 

18 decades. In the case of methane, for centuries. 

19 In the case of CO2, for almost millennia. And 

20 when we start talking about some of the more potent 

21 greenhouse gases, and those will be around for a 

22 long time. So that means we have more investment 
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1 in the future in our resilience adaptation.

2 So anything we can do to keep the gases 

3 out of the atmosphere, or work with that carbon 

4 cycle and bring them back to the atmosphere. Now, 

5 again, bringing you into this picture, we have a 

6 whole -- this is from a peer over on the comment 

7 team at Colorado State, Amy Swan, and it was also 

8 published in the Intergovernmental Panel on

9 Climate Change 2006. We know there are lots of 

10 sources and lots of sinks on all operations.

11 And so then the question is: Can we 

12 track all of these different gases and look at how 

13 did they quantify, and then how do they stuck up, 

14 right? Are there net benefits to the atmosphere? 

15 Or are there net losses to the atmosphere? We 

16 know that just about everything in production 

17 causes emissions. But we also know that we can 

18 work with the nitrogen and carbon cycles to bring 

19 things back into the planet.

20 So we've got three main greenhouse 

21 gases, this -- if there was a quiz today, it would 

22 be carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, which is also 
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1 laughing gas, and it's a persistent gas that stays 

2 in the atmosphere, and methane, CH4, which does 

3 decay over time to become carbon dioxide. But 

4 that's the end of the chemistry for today. Let's 

5 just kind of have fun and talk about being part 

6 of the climate solution.

7 But there are a lot of sources, a lot 

8 of sinks within any agricultural operation, 

9 including organic operations, and there are 

10 numerous intervention opportunities. We all know 

11 that -- if we can make the intervention 

12 opportunities, some of them are technology driven, 

13 some of them are practiced and management-driven, 

14 and some things we just cannot change for the time 

15 being.

16 At NRCS, we work with systems, and this 

17 is an extreme egregious case, but we work with 

18 systems like this. I see an atmospheric problem, 

19 I see a water quality problem, I see a soil problem, 

20 soil health. But we try to transition those 

21 systems into more sustainable, more operational 

22 systems. And we know, of course, within soil 
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1 health, with soil organic matter, we can build 

2 carbon stocks, and we can protect our most valuable 

3 resource, which is topsoil, right?

4 We all agree on that. We've got 

5 livestock operations -- same thing, egregious, but 

6 we know we can go to livestock health, soil health, 

7 sustainability, have a bunch of co-benefits 

8 associated with all these climate benefits. And 

9 then my third and final picture on kind of what 

10 we do at NRCS, we take systems that may have 

11 extremely, you know, large amounts of erosion, 

12 which we all agree is a bad thing, and then we can 

13 restore that.

14 We can take a land and put it in a 

15 different use and deliver photosynthetic activity, 

16 improve the whole systematic approach, enhance 

17 carbon sequestration, reduce emissions, reduce 

18 soil loss, improve water quality. The cascade 

19 goes on and on it. I'm a climate scientist by 

20 training. So I've always just worked in the 

21 atmosphere, so I kind of look at the world through 

22 the glasses of a scientist with an atmospheric 
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1 lens.

2 But I want you to all see yourselves 

3 in all of these slides. And I hope, you know, I 

4 trust that most of you are well beyond all of these 

5 practices, and kind of into that extremely advanced 

6 level of delivery. Here's a slide that I borrowed 

7 from Bill Hohenstein recently, and the USDA climate 

8 priorities on the left. I'd like to draw your 

9 attention to a couple of these that I'm going to 

10 focus on for the remainder of my time today. And 

11 then some of the principles to the right that are 

12 also important.

13 So as Mr. Babington mentioned, we've 

14 got climate smart agriculture. We want to 

15 leverage existing programs, but we want to build 

16 these partnerships and learn more about how we can 

17 deliver these greener commodities to the 

18 marketplace. We've got climate smart forestry 

19 quantification methods. Then we have adaptation 

20 and resilience, which what we talked about. We 

21 want our workforce at USDA to be climate informed. 

22 We have to move out in research and development, 
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1 right?

2 We can only move the quantification 

3 tools as far forward as the research is behind an 

4 underpinning that. We've got energy efficiency, 

5 renewable energy. We have equity and 

6 environmental justice, and then we have 

7 international cooperation. So we're trying to do 

8 all of these things. And at USDA, we're learning 

9 along the way, right? We're trying to get all 

10 these pieces together and move people forward. 

11 We may move faster in one place, but then we try 

12 to back up and pull another topic forward.

13 We want to be comprehensive over to the 

14 right, voluntary and incentive based, that's what 

15 I just talked about from NRCS, equitable and 

16 accessible, we want it to be cost effective, we 

17 want public engagement, and we want rural 

18 economies, as Mr. Babington definitely emphasized. 

19 So the ones that I'm going to speak on for the 

20 rest of my limited time today are really existing 

21 programs, the quantification metrics, and the 

22 voluntary incentive based equitable, accessible 
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1 programs.

2 And again, please see yourself squarely 

3 within this. And the opportunities exist for you 

4 all to be part of these partnerships. We want to 

5 move that forward. On the left, we've got a 600 

6 page document. Many of you are familiar with it. 

7 I see a lot of friendly faces on the -- in the 

8 group. I always refer to that as the methods 

9 report. That's how we do our quantification.

10 So as Nate mentioned, how do we quantify 

11 the N2O emissions to the atmosphere, or how do we 

12 quantify the emissions from a tractor? How do we 

13 do all of this? And so this is our book. And, 

14 and we republish this every five years as the state 

15 of science improves. And then we have a handful 

16 of quantification tools over on the right, which 

17 we try to build to be inclusive, but also 

18 scientifically based, which is a very difficult 

19 balance to keep going.

20 At NRCS, you may have seen that we have 

21 a list of atmospheric beneficial conservation 

22 practices. Again, these are NRCS conservation 
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1 practices, but we hope that some people will have 

2 adopted many of these in the past. Some people 

3 may need help adopting some of them. So I hope

4 that you can see yourself there. And we'll pick 

5 on 590 right in the middle of the screen, nitrogen 

6 management, right? If we can have a nutrient 

7 management plan, we can have a nutrient management 

8 plan in a conventional context.

9 But we also need to have a nutrient 

10 management plan in an organic operation, because 

11 as Nate mentioned, there are great opportunities 

12 to reduce N2O emissions, but there's also the 

13 potential, if you don't manage that nitrogen 

14 properly, to cause that to go to the atmosphere. 

15 So we just need to manage, you know, balancing 

16 for nitrogen, balancing for carbon, compost manure 

17 applications. Those all can be great 

18 opportunities to reduce emissions.

19 But applied in a system that gets water 

20 at the right time, and too much of one of those, 

21 you can have nitrous oxide emissions. So we've 

22 got this list of practices that really can underpin 
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1 a lot of the initial work on the partnership, but 

2 -- with the partnership program. But we want that 

3 partnership program to expand our breadth and how 

4 we understand what's going on in the country, and 

5 then how these things are getting monetized in the 

6 marketplace. As you all know how to monetize 

7 extremely well, as it has been discussed.

8 We take -- I took all of these and just 

9 put them in a little different format. You can 

10 see I've got cover crops, and this is going to be 

11 for the benefit of my next slide. My next slide 

12 is just going to show you -- so this is all the 

13 NRCS conservation practices. We have about 33 

14 practices, and then a handful of enhancements. 

15 Another 80 or so that make up our climate smart 

16 list as of today, but we plan to expand that list 

17 next year and improve it.

18 But if you take this matrix writ large, 

19 you'll notice that, you know, I focus on cover crops 

20 just to draw your attention to it. But the pieces 

21 I really wanted to show you is right here, and this 

22 is NRCS' quantification work. So we quantify the 
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1 atmospheric benefits over time. And those little 

2 boxes, that matrix of 33 practices, delivers how 

3 many benefits -- carbon sequestration, greenhouse 

4 gas emission reductions -- we've had over time.

5 And you can see that, you know, in the 

6 hypothetical blue curve, that's the NRCS curve. 

7 That's only what we delivered through Farm Bill 

8 programs like Mr. Babington mentioned. Then 

9 there's how we mobilize the larger marketplace. 

10 And that's our opportunity, because we know the 

11 red line is the larger marketplace, the national 

12 curve. And if we can help influence the national 

13 curve, we can lift that, and we can get more 

14 atmospheric benefits through these market driven 

15 mechanisms.

16 So that's just a little bit of thinking 

17 on the opportunity, as I mentioned NRCS, we track 

18 and try to quantify the benefits of everything that 

19 we deliver under the Farm Bill programs that were 

20 generously granted through Congress. But we know 

21 that's only a fraction of what we can actually 

22 deliver into the whole, you know, to the planet, 
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1 actually. And we also keep track of that national 

2 curve in the national greenhouse gas inventory.

3 And the national greenhouse gas 

4 inventory quantification methods, we tried to keep 

5 those consistent all the way back to the blue book, 

6 which is a challenge in itself. So then, at the 

7 end of the day, NRCS does an annual quantification. 

8 We quantify our soil health practices, and that's 

9 inclusive of organic. So please think of yourself 

10 being nested in the soil health practices.

11 The perennial biomass and agro forestry 

12 is the green. You've got livestock operations, 

13 livestock that includes grass-fed, and confined 

14 animal operations. But we put that all together 

15 in how many benefits can we bring forward for the 

16 ecosystem from NRCS Farm Bill programs. And those 

17 are -- those have to be delivered in a year.

18 So we have two different processes. 

19 If you know NRCS well, we do a lot of planning. 

20 But I don't get -- I don't take credit for those 

21 in our quantification, until they generate 

22 photosynthetic activity, reduce that methane --
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1 important methane emissions, or stop that nitrous 

2 oxide emissions to the atmosphere. And then you 

3 can just do a simple and a comparison. I think 

4 last year we had about 82.3 million metric tons 

5 of CO2 equivalent reductions just from NRCS.

6 And that delivered almost 18 million, 

7 you know, offset. I don't say it removed the cars 

8 -- cars still stayed on the road. So it offset 

9 the emissions of 18 million passenger vehicles, 

10 and these other metrics for which we reply -- or 

11 rely on on EPA to help us do the inner comparison. 

12 But at NRCS, we take this quantification very 

13 serious. We hope that we could work with the 

14 organic groups to deliver on the quantification.

15 Some folks in the Board, I even heard 

16 from in the past on hey, I need a crop put into 

17 the tools. How do I do that? What about I think 

18 I remember hearing it was Logan that talked about 

19 -- or no. Maybe Logan was on carrots and then there 

20 were green field peas and another topic. And we've 

21 definitely heard from both of them as Nate. And 

22 we've heard from those not being in comment.
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1 The hardest part of that is we're trying 

2 to get the quantification into the blue book. So 

3 into that blue book, so that then we can put it 

4 into the quantification tool. So we need the 

5 science and really that's driven by that scientific 

6 research agenda, which I think, leadership has 

7 recognized the opportunity to improve that, and 

8 that's where the climate smart commodities program 

9 really comes in, and will help us advance science 

10 forward.

11 In addition to our great work with ARS, 

12 ag research service. So I'm running about out of 

13 time and I've got just a few overarching 

14 conclusions here. I want you all to just kind of 

15 take away, and I'm happy to to help in the future. 

16 We know that voluntary working on this 

17 conservation delivers on the climate solutions. 

18 We definitely are getting more conservation on 

19 the ground, but we need to get even more 

20 conservation on the ground.

21 As Dr. Tucker said, you know, I try to 

22 tell people I'm trying to get conservation on the 
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1 ground. But the other thing that's important is 

2 -- and you all know this probably better than 

3 anybody -- is when you invest in a system and you 

4 build soil organic matter, or you plant a fruit 

5 tree as we had discussed in the introductions. 

6 We know that accrues carbon a little bit in year 

7 one, year two, year three, and then we all know 

8 the look of the tree rings as they get bigger, so 

9 that accrues more carbon.

10 So the important -- the other really 

11 important thing here, and you all know this well, 

12 is we got to keep the conservation on the ground. 

13 Because carbon often begets carbon in these 

14 natural systems, and the system likes to move in 

15 that direction. And then finally, with mitigation 

16 benefits are tracked by NRCS, we try to have 

17 consistency in our quantification methods all the 

18 way from the national inventory approach, down to 

19 our field level or our farm level quantification 

20 tools.

21 So in my wrap-up, I'm going to go back 

22 to my first slide, which is, and I do feel 
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1 profoundly, you know, indebted to future 

2 generations here. We understand this problem. 

3 We do have the ability to solve it. One of my 

4 recent peers asked me, Knowing what you do about 

5 climate change and spending all this time on 

6 climate change, how do you sleep at night?

7 And so I thought about that for a while, 

8 and I responded to her with an adjustment to this 

9 quote, which is, we are the first generation to 

10 fully understand the problem, and we're actually 

11 the first generation with the tools to solve it. 

12 So with that, I think that's our opportunity, is 

13 we get to go from being the last with the ability, 

14 to being the first, the first with the tools to 

15 deliver on it. And I would say, honestly, you all 

16 are well ahead of the game, and we have a lot to 

17 learn from you.

18 But I'm also a scientist, so there's 

19 kind of that -- let's do the quantification to 

20 support our assertions. And then we have a really 

21 compelling story to tell. And I guess that ties 

22 into Mr. Babington's opening remarks on the 
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1 partnership program of how -- trying to get people 

2 to show their math and definitely help us expand 

3 and improve our mathematics as well on the 

4 atmospheric benefits. So with that, I really 

5 appreciate the time and the opportunity to speak 

6 with you-all. And I look forward to our continuing 

7 discussions.

8 DR. TUCKER: Adam, thank you so, so 

9 much. Genuinely appreciate your being here, your 

10 energy, your enthusiasm, and all your thoughts 

11 today. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Nate, 

12 did you want to make any quick follow-up on that?

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: I don't think it's 

14 lost on anyone on this call how grateful we are 

15 for the work of NRCS, and how I think it's an example 

16 of really smart scientists helping farmers do their 

17 best. So I really wanted to thank you for your 

18 work, and everyone at NRCS.

19 DR. TUCKER: Well put. Again, thank 

20 you so much.

21 DR. CHAMBERS: Thank you. Thanks for 

22 having me. I really appreciate it.
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1 DR. TUCKER: We were thrilled to have 

2 you here, so thank you for being -- and we continue 

3 to -- we look forward to continuing to work with 

4 NRCS. I think we have a lot of joint interest and 

5 joint projects to move forward here. So look 

6 forward to doing that. And so in the meantime, 

7 I think you can stop sharing, otherwise, I don't 

8 know how to override your share. You're sharing 

9 your dog -- somebody in Zoom is better than I. 

10 Okay. And thank you again, Adam.

11 You're welcome to stay on. If you 

12 would like that, though we assume you also have 

13 a very busy day. I'm going to give a couple of 

14 follow-up comments to what we just heard, and then 

15 we'll move into the NOP update. And so again, glad 

16 we were able to bring those speakers in. I wanted 

17 to kind of, I did -- I didn't know what those folks 

18 were going to say before they came, so I was hearing 

19 it with you.

20 And as I was jotting down the notes, 

21 the word that just keeps on coming back in all 

22 elements of this climate discussion is data. So 
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1 the importance of data, to continue to support the 

2 science, to demonstrate organic's role, and to

3 maximize farmer access to climate smart programs 

4 and benefits. So how do we continue to generate 

5 data in a usable form to demonstrate and continue 

6 to verify, validate, and confirm the role of 

7 organic and all of these different -- through all 

8 the different practices that organic is already 

9 doing.

10 And so I think most -- a lot of folks 

11 know at this point that as a child of a computer 

12 scientist, I do tend to think often in terms of 

13 data, and data exchange, and data harmonization. 

14 And so, getting more data to support both the 

15 practical science of this, but also the research 

16 side of it. Getting more data is supported by data 

17 harmonization that facilitates data exchange.

18 And so when I listen to talks like that, 

19 I think about all the data that is entering into 

20 conservation plans to demonstrate for NRCS through 

21 their conservation programs. But I also think 

22 about all the practice data that is currently being 
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1 lost because of a lack of harmonization and data 

2 exchange for organic system plans. Yeah, I looked 

3 at the slide that was shown on conservation 

4 practices, and yeah, that stuff is all in organic 

5 system plant, but it is sitting in PDF forms or 

6 in disparate systems.

7 And then somebody got to take it, and 

8 we've got an analyst here who calls it swivel chair 

9 interface. So I enter in this computer, and then 

10 I swivel over my chair and I enter it into this 

11 other computer. And really thinking 

12 strategically about how we can think about dated 

13 differently. The public-private partnership 

14 leads to a huge decentralization of practice-based 

15 data that could really help with this climate 

16 conversation.

17 And so I really encourage all of us to 

18 think about how we can think about data and data 

19 harmonization and data flow differently, when we 

20 think about things like organic system plans, and 

21 other tools that track and report on these climate 

22 practices. So some of that's on USDA in terms of 
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1 figuring out how do we make our systems talk to 

2 each other, even though our systems are designed 

3 to do different things.

4 But how could certifiers also kind of 

5 work together for a more harmonized approach to 

6 data management with organic system plans. And 

7 so I encourage all of us to think about how we can 

8 kind of collectively and continuously improve in 

9 that data space. So some of the thoughts that came 

10 out of listening to our guest speakers today. I 

11 did want to answer a question that came up in the 

12 chat in terms of NOP's engagement.

13 We have been engaged with a team that 

14 is working on these climate initiatives that you 

15 have meeting agency-level meetings, that I have 

16 attended, that Erin Healy attended. We have those 

17 -- have staff members attend. We also will have 

18 or we have offered proposal evaluators for the 

19 climate smart commodities program, so we will have 

20 organic expertise involved in reviewing those 

21 applications as well.

22 So we are engaged in -- in the -- in 
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1 those conversations within USDA. We have provided 

2 a variety of information about the standards and 

3 what what they mean and what those practices are. 

4 Having an undersecretary who is an organic 

5 producer really helps in that conversation as well, 

6 because she understands the language of how to talk 

7 about organic across the department. I think 

8 that's a very important asset.

9 So I got to take a deep breath and close 

10 this part of the NOP update. I'm also going to 

11 pause for a second and drink a glass of water and 

12 breathe a little bit, so I'm going to actually 

13 encourage we -- do this to certify our training. 

14 Let's all take a few breaths. Everybody take five 

15 breaths, cleansing breaths in and out, while I 

16 breathe and drink some water and then I will be 

17 back. Five breaths. Doesn't that feel great? 

18 Okay.

19 We're now going to move to the next part 

20 of the NOP update, and it is actually a celebration. 

21 I'm going to bring up a couple of slides here. 

22 We are celebrating our organic certifiers today. 
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1 And so, I wanted take a few minutes to recognize 

2 a big anniversary for the program that happens this 

3 week.

4 Congress created the National Organic 

5 Program as a public-private partnership. The 

6 system could not work without certifiers and their 

7 team. So this Thursday, in fact, marks 20 day --

8 20 years since the day that USDA accredited its 

9 first class of organic certifiers under the Organic 

10 Foods Production Act. And so I will move to the 

11 next slide that shows their logos.

12 So this is the first class of 

13 certifiers, the certifiers who have been around 

14 since the very, very beginning. And so after so 

15 much work by thousands of people across the organic 

16 community 20 years ago, the federal standard could 

17 officially be used to certify organic farms and 

18 businesses. And so this milestone really does 

19 help us remember the unique role that certifiers 

20 and their staff and inspectors serve in their 

21 ongoing work to deliver consistent oversight and 

22 continuous improvement.
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1 And so an awful lot has changed since 

2 2002. I believe we have collectively worked 

3 together to develop and further implement the 

4 organic standards. So these certifiers have 

5 conducted thousands of inspections over two 

6 decades. They have filled strong organic control 

7 systems that are protecting organic integrity 

8 around the world.

9 Hand in hand with them, NOP has built 

10 the first public database of organic operations. 

11 The organic integrity database has now been in 

12 place for about seven or eight years. So it's part 

13 of that history, as is now our learning center. 

14 And so we continue to build the infrastructure 

15 and the systems that ultimately are exercised by 

16 organic certifiers and by organic farms around the 

17 world.

18 So today, there are 76 certifiers, and 

19 their work continues to be vital to the community. 

20 They in turn work with organic farmers who are 

21 using all these natural materials, and who are 

22 taking a systems approach to protect natural 
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1 resources, to build soil and water quality and 

2 biodiversity. And they are vital partners in 

3 consistent oversight, engaging in continuous 

4 improvement across a myriad of control system 

5 activities.

6 So we have sent the very first class 

7 of certifiers a keepsake. I'm going to put it in 

8 the camera here. See if folks can see that, it's 

9 the number 20. And so it's a 20, and on the front, 

10 it says celebrating 20 years of USDA organic 

11 certification. It has the the seal on it. And 

12 so to -- we've sent them this to mark the milestone 

13 in their own offices. Over the next several days, 

14 USDA, the Department will be posting about this 

15 anniversary across our social media channels.

16 And I believe we're going to be sharing 

17 in the chat some of those links. So if you would 

18 like to help us sort of celebrate this -- a rather 

19 momentous anniversary. We hope that you will 

20 watch for and share those posts. And so, I want 

21 to give -- I know we have a lot of certifiers on 

22 the line with us today, so I'd like to pause and 
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1 give them all a big round of applause for everything 

2 that they have done. The first class of certifiers 

3 and every certifier that has followed in their 

4 footsteps. Okay.

5 We are going to turn to some key program 

6 updates, and a review of feedback from the recent 

7 regulatory priorities, public comment 

8 opportunity. So we're going to take this in two 

9 segments. The first -- I'm going to give you an

10 update of where we are with some key rule making 

11 and then we're going to turn to reflections on the 

12 regulatory priorities notice.

13 So first, there is a full NOP update 

14 that was recorded by many different people across 

15 NOP. It is posted in the organic integrity 

16 learning center. It was included in an insider 

17 that went out last week. If you go to the learning 

18 center, you click on NOP presentations. There's 

19 presentation in there that is the full NOP update. 

20 And so it's about 40 minutes, gives an update on 

21 priorities and recent successes. So I'm not 

22 repeating all that here, but I am going to review 
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1 where we are with some key rules.

2 So the first one is organic origin of 

3 livestock, final rule. And so there was a lot of 

4 communication about this, as well as a recent 

5 webinar. That final rule was published on April 

6 5th, we are now in a one-year implementation 

7 period. We will be launching training for 

8 certifiers and operations in the learning center 

9 later this year, as operations gear up for that 

10 change.

11 The organic livestock and poultry 

12 standards proposed rule went to the Office of 

13 Management and Budget, OMB, in December, and we 

14 have been working closely with OMB on their review 

15 process. The strengthening organic enforcement 

16 final rule is in legal review. Now that, for folks 

17 who track the clearance process, a legal review 

18 is an early step in USDA clearance.

19 So it means we finished the role, NOP 

20 has been pencils down on this. It is now with the 

21 legal team. Another important role is the inerts 

22 role. So this is looking at what we're going to 
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1 do about list three and four on the national list. 

2 That is an advanced notice of proposed rule making 

3 where we will invite public comments. That's also 

4 in legal review. So the lawyers have that advanced 

5 notice of proposed rule making in review.

6 We also continued to work on other 

7 national list rules on an ongoing basis, and we 

8 generally have two to three rules or notices 

9 related to the national list underway at any given 

10 time. So I know there's a lot of emphasis on 

11 practice standards, but I do want to pause and 

12 really acknowledge the strong and steady work of 

13 the national list team, that we have really got 

14 into a very stable, and by rule making standards, 

15 pretty rapid cadence of rule making related to 

16 national list.

17 Rule making does take time. The 

18 national list process shows how that can work as 

19 efficiently as rule making possibly can. So this 

20 brings me to an important update on the fall 2021 

21 NOSB recommendation to prohibit ammonia extracts. 

22 And so USDA has decided that we will proceed with 
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1 the rule making process.

2 So we will proceed with the rule making 

3 process to propose adding ammonia extracts as a 

4 prohibited natural in crop production on the 

5 national list. And we have decided to move ahead 

6 with that rule making process independently of the 

7 Board's current work on highly soluble nitrogen 

8 fertilizers. So we are pursuing the rule-making 

9 on that fall recommendation without -- we 

10 understand you're not -- we haven't voted yet, on 

11 that highly soluble nitrogen fertilizer proposal. 

12 But we are committed to moving ahead with the 

13 rule-making process on ammonia extract.

14 So that's our update on that 

15 recommendation. I know there's been a lot of 

16 interest in that across the community. So that's 

17 a summary of where we are with key rules at this 

18 time. So I'm going to turn to now discussing the 

19 recent priority -- regulatory priorities, public 

20 comment opportunity. And you know, before I 

21 switch over to that, just because now I've been 

22 talking for a little bit, I am going to take a little 
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1 bit of a break here and see if there are questions 

2 on what I just said. So I know we'll have other 

3 questions, but let's see if there are questions 

4 on what I just talked about in terms of rule making 

5 priorities before we move to the regulatory 

6 priorities discussion.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Who has questions

8 for Jenny? All right, Amy, please go ahead.

9 MS. BRUCH: I --

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Sorry. Let's see if 

11 Jenny's ready. Okay.

12 MS. BRUCH: Okay. Thank you, Nate. 

13 Thank you, Jenny, for those really important 

14 updates. I know you mentioned about the 

15 Strengthening of Enforcement Act still being in 

16 legal review. This is an incredible rule 

17 important to the community, and I just wanted to 

18 ask if there was anything more that we on NOSB or 

19 the community can do to impress upon the USDA the 

20 importance of this rule in advancing it through 

21 rule making?

22 DR. TUCKER: I appreciate that 
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1 question. You know, I often talk about sort of 

2 the rule-making pipeline in terms of things moving 

3 through different stages. It's called clearance 

4 to get all the way through that process. There 

5 was a tremendous coordinated push from the 

6 community, on origin of livestock. And that is 

7 I believe a real -- it was a -- it was very important 

8 to origin of livestock getting completed.

9 Knowing how united the organic 

10 community was around completing origin of 

11 livestock and how important it was to get that rule 

12 finalized and out in the world. The consensus and 

13 clear communication from the community on that 

14 priority was vital. And it -- it did -- it put 

15 origin of livestock at the front of the line for 

16 rule-making.

17 And so for folks who believe SOE, and 

18 I'm one of you, believe SOE is as important, it 

19 will actually impact more people than origin of 

20 livestock in terms of implementation. Your voice 

21 works, your consensus, connection, collaboration, 

22 communication, all those good C words are very 
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1 important in advancing rules.

2 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Jenny.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Any other questions 

4 for Jenny? I just want to thank you for those 

5 updates, Jenny, before we move on. And I think 

6 that there's growing inertia, I think when we have 

7 really great collaboration on the Board, and the 

8 program hears our requests, and takes our work 

9 deeply into consideration. So we really 

10 appreciate that that's being done. Thank you.

11 DR. TUCKER: We got a great standards 

12 team here. We really have built that team over 

13 the past couple of years here, and they've really 

14 refined their practices. A lot of them have grown 

15 -- climbed a pretty big learning curve, honestly. 

16 Some joined from outside the organic community 

17 and have really dived in whole -- wholehearted to 

18 learn about the rule making process, so --

19 Okay, let's turn to the regulatory 

20 priorities. I'm going to give an overview of kind 

21 of what we learned through that process. So I'm 

22 going to start with some general themes, and it's 
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1 sort of overview. For folks who may not have been 

2 as familiar with this, we advertised a listening 

3 session, and then within that federal register 

4 notice, there was a summary of current outstanding 

5 NOSB recommendations, and an invitation for both 

6 participation and a public comment session, 

7 orally.

8 We had a webinar and written comments. 

9 And so I'm going to give kind of a top-line 

10 summary, for those who have not sat down and list 

11 -- and read all 572 written public comments. I'm 

12 giving you the executive summary, so you don't have 

13 to go read all 572 of them, which is an addition 

14 to the folks who actually -- who came to the public 

15 comment opportunity. So first a big thank you.

16 You know, 572 organizations and people 

17 who chose to participate in this process and have 

18 your voice be heard, is really impressive. And 

19 so thank you for taking all the time and 

20 thoughtfulness that you did to participate in that 

21 process. Big-picture take home messages, 

22 commenters generally supported NOSB 
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1 recommendations and urged NOP to address them by 

2 developing standards primarily through rule 

3 making.

4 Commenters noted that regularly 

5 updated standards will help protect the 

6 environment, protect the organic label, ensure a 

7 level playing field, and match the evolving 

8 consumer and industry needs. And so many, many 

9 commenters said that all topics should be 

10 prioritized, and all topics should be completed. 

11 However, within that broader context of wanting 

12 all activities to move forward, there were three 

13 that ended up being the most often discussed in 

14 the comments.

15 The first is hydroponics and 

16 containers, the second organic seeds, and the 

17 third, native ecosystems. And so those three were 

18 referenced many times, with some differences in 

19 prioritization based on perceived difficulties in 

20 rule making. So I'm going to give some more 

21 details in a second, but I want to highlight those 

22 as the three top topics referenced in response.
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1 In addition to those, many commenters 

2 voiced appreciation for NOP's current rule making 

3 on recent or in-progress rules. So the ones that 

4 we just covered, the strength in the organic 

5 enforcement, origin of livestock, organic 

6 livestock, and poultry standards, and inerts. 

7 Many comments supported their finalization and 

8 implementation. Some comments -- commenters 

9 expressed frustration that NOSB recommendations 

10 have not been implemented through rule making.

11 However, many commenters also 

12 appreciated the outreach to the industry through 

13 the Federal Register notice and encouraged an 

14 ongoing process of prioritization reporting. So 

15 now I'm going to get into the topic specific area, 

16 and I'm going to actually start with native 

17 ecosystems. And so many commenters discussed this 

18 topic. Many ranked it as a high priority issue, 

19 and asked NOP to implement rule making for the 

20 topic.

21 Several commenters, however, ranked it 

22 as a lower priority issue, citing the complexity 
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1 of the issue, the lack of statutory authority, and 

2 the possible need for legislation before NOP can 

3 break in rule making. So commenters in support 

4 of rule making stated that current standards 

5 incentivize the conversion of native ecosystems, 

6 because it circumvents the three-year transition 

7 period for farmland. And they cited the 

8 importance of biodiversity, consistency with USDA 

9 policy goals, consumer trust, and fairness.

10 Some commenters also referenced 

11 international prohibitions or restrictions on the 

12 conversion of native ecosystems. And so this is 

13 one where we truly do understand the importance 

14 of this issue to the community. And I'm also 

15 realistic about the challenges that many did note 

16 in public comments.

17 The federal register notice on 

18 regulatory priorities had noted that before 

19 proceeding with this recommendations, we'd like 

20 to see significant support by the organic industry, 

21 and noted that congressional action may be needed. 

22 And so based on the comments received, those 
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1 comments still apply.

2 Let's move on to hydroponics and 

3 container growing. This topic is a high priority 

4 for many stakeholders. The consumers -- the 

5 commenters noted that inconsistent certification 

6 and enforcement is causing confusion amongst 

7 certifier and producer communities. The primary 

8 concern of commenters was whether hydroponic and 

9 container systems and operations can meet up the 

10 soil fertility requirements. With some 

11 commenters suggesting a hydroponically grown, or 

12 container-grown, or organic label, or a separate 

13 specialty crop standard.

14 And so we do acknowledge the 

15 significant interest in this topic. There is a 

16 current lawsuit on hydroponics, and it is in the 

17 appeals phase. The resolution of that case is 

18 likely to inform next steps and direction on this 

19 topic. We have stated publicly several times in 

20 the past that right now we don't have sufficient 

21 information to move directly to a proposed rule 

22 on this topic. And so we know that many in the 
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1 community do have an interest in the board taking 

2 this topic back up. So that's hydroponics and 

3 containers.

4 Next, is organic seeds. And so this 

5 topic was ranked medium high by many commenters, 

6 with most commenters supporting increasing the use 

7 of organic seed. Some commenters did say that the 

8 current regulations are adequate, and that 

9 mandating use of organic seed would unnecessarily 

10 burden farmers. They asked that the commercial 

11 availability exemptions remain in place.

12 Commenters stated that research on 

13 organic seed has stagnated, and cited the 

14 importance of continuous improvement benchmarks 

15 to help drive innovation and increase the use of 

16 organic seeds. So a couple of comments on this 

17 one. NOP -- we are aware of concerns about the 

18 low use of organic seed. We noted in the federal 

19 register that we had not made this recommendation 

20 a regulatory priority because we believed that the 

21 recommendation is already addressed by USDA 

22 regulations for commercial availability.
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1 Because we did have some concerns about 

2 how the provisions were being implemented, we did 

3 invest in developing training on organic seed 

4 sourcing as a practical, high impact step. And 

5 that training is available in the Organic Integrity 

6 Learning Center. And so the public comment 

7 process, as well as the new organic seed survey 

8 that the Organic Seed Alliance will be discussing 

9 during this meeting this week, have really provided 

10 very, very useful feedback and historical 

11 background that will be helpful in re-evaluating 

12 this priority moving forward.

13 I shared in another setting that I --

14 if I had placed a bet on what the highest priorities 

15 were going to be, this wasn't on my list, and now 

16 it is. So I think the public comment process 

17 really does work because it was very helpful to 

18 read through the public comments on this particular 

19 topic. One of my common questions when people say 

20 we need new standards is: Well, do we really need 

21 new standards, or do we need to be better enforcing 

22 the standards that we have? And sometimes the 
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1 answer's both/and. And so I appreciate the 

2 feedback on this topic.

3 The next set of topics of relate to 

4 rules, where a rule-making process had begun under 

5 Secretary Vilsack's first term. And so I'm going 

6 to now run through those with some feedback from 

7 public comment. Mushrooms, most comments did 

8 support developing mushroom standards and ranked 

9 this issue as a medium priority. Many commenters 

10 felt that we should advance all NOSB 

11 recommendations, and this is one of those.

12 And some comments noted that existing 

13 crop standards are not appropriate for mushroom 

14 production, such as compost requirements. For pet 

15 food, comments again, generally supported the 

16 standard thinking all recommendation should move 

17 forward, but did rank it as a lower priority.

18 Apiculture, commenters again, 

19 generally supported the topic ranking it as a 

20 slightly lower priority. One certifier did rank 

21 it as their second highest priority. And then 

22 aquaculture, most comments did support developing 
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1 the standard, but generally ranked it as a low or 

2 medium priority. Our commenters did note the need 

3 for consistency and the unfair advantage for --

4 that foreign aquaculture producers currently have 

5 versus domestic producers. And there were some 

6 specific comments about including algae and 

7 spirulina production in those standards.

8 So those are practice standards that 

9 had been initiated under the previous Vilsack 

10 administration. Okay. Now I'm going to turn to 

11 a set of comments on other topics. And I'm going 

12 generally in order of the number of comments, 

13 particularly an individualized comments that came 

14 in.

15 Genetic engineering and excluded 

16 methods. Most commenters rank this as a 

17 medium-high priority, except for one certifier or 

18 who noted that certifiers already enforce this 

19 consistently. Some comments claimed that a better 

20 definition of excluded methods would increase 

21 consumer competitive -- competence, but others 

22 claimed that prohibiting technology may cause --
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1 may increase confusion and stifle innovation.

2 For handbook updates, commenters rank 

3 this as a medium high priority, asked that NOP to 

4 regularly update the handbook, especially after 

5 rule-making. Others pushed for more educational 

6 resources, and others said that learning center 

7 courses should not substitute for written 

8 standards. There were a mix of comments on the 

9 handbook, and this came out in the verbal comments 

10 as well, about how questions about how well they 

11 could be enforced compared to the actual standards.

12 Emergency synthetic parasiticides. 

13 There were only a few comments on this topic. They 

14 ranked it as medium-high priority, except for the 

15 accredited certifiers association, which did not 

16 believe standards development was needed on this 

17 topic. Several commenters asked NOP to better 

18 define emergency. So not a lot of comments on 

19 that, but the ones who did comment focused on that 

20 term.

21 Commercial availability with processed 

22 products, commenters generally ranked it as a 
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1 medium-low priority, noting that rule making is 

2 not as high priority, because ACA has already 

3 issued best practices on the subject, which has 

4 been supporting certifiers. Livestock vaccines 

5 using excluded methods, many rank that as a lower 

6 priority, citing verification challenges, a lack 

7 of market impetus to develop organic appropriate 

8 vaccines, the unavailability of alternative, and 

9 animal welfare impact.

10 And then finally, personal care 

11 products. There were a few comments on this, but 

12 not many, and only one ranked that as a high 

13 priority. And so most commenters noted the 

14 jurisdictional complexity of that particular 

15 topic. There were other comments. So it came in 

16 through this process on, for example, challenges 

17 of climate change for organic farmers, 

18 communicating organic is climate smart 

19 agriculture.

20 Comments related to the structural and 

21 procedural changes to the NOP and NOSB, I'm going 

22 to talk about that more in a second. Organic 
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1 research and research funding, increased budget 

2 capacity for standards development. And we have 

3 stepped up in standards. And then there were some 

4 comments on high nitrogen fertilizer.

5 I did want to comment on the staffing 

6 of standards. We do have quite a robust team, 

7 there are a couple of public documents who -- that 

8 reference that NOP only has, like, three or four 

9 people working on rules. And I'm not quite sure 

10 where that number came from, we have a lot of folks 

11 who are working on -- on rule making activities 

12 with -- within NOP, and really have built up that 

13 team over the past year and a half or so. So okay.

14 Final sort of comments on some items 

15 that were actually not listed in our federal 

16 register notice, but did receive some comments. 

17 Some link to that structure on procedures changes 

18 category, and named those comments as priority. 

19 So I actually wanted to use two of those as kind 

20 of case studies that illustrate what I call sort 

21 of the civics of NOP, and how different policy 

22 topics play out, depending on how they get raised 
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1 and how they get resolved.

2 And so one of the topics that comes up 

3 sometimes with respect to procedural changes 

4 relates to the sunset process. And so I did want 

5 to touch on that a little bit, because I think the 

6 story of the sunset process helps illustrate how 

7 these processes can play out. And so many years 

8 ago, USDA changed how the board votes on sunset 

9 reviews using a federal register notice.

10 So there's a federal register notice 

11 that formally changed how sunsets are considered. 

12 That notice was subsequently contested in a 

13 lawsuit. The lawsuit charged that it was unlawful 

14 for USDA to -- to do that. In the end, the lawsuit 

15 -- the ruling in the lawsuit stated that the federal 

16 register notice itself was ultimately a process 

17 change, and was not a final action, like an actual 

18 listing or de-listing would be, and that the court 

19 would rule on in terms of harm.

20 And so that lawsuit ended based on that 

21 sort of process determination. Ultimately, 

22 Congress then changed the organic through its 
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1 production act to require that any change the 

2 national list, an addition or a removal, required 

3 a definitive vote. And so that codified the 

4 federal register notice that AMS had published on 

5 the sunset process into the act. This is why we 

6 consider the topic closed, is because it was 

7 embodied within the act that any change to the 

8 national list, an addition or a removal, required 

9 a two-thirds majority vote.

10 So that's one of the topics that came 

11 up, or I wanted to talk through the sequence of 

12 events on why we believe that topic is closed. 

13 The second was -- there were a lot of comments on 

14 natamycin, and urging NOP to implement the board's 

15 recommendation on natamycin. That's another one 

16 where I wanted to walk through the process because 

17 it is a bit of a cautionary tale to remind people 

18 of how important the rule-making process is.

19 And so, just to review the history on 

20 this, based on -- the NOSB had recommended that 

21 natamycin be listed as a prohibited natural. 

22 Okay. So a recommendation was prohibited as a 
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1 natural. And so we included that in a proposed 

2 rule. So we proposed to implement the Board's 

3 recommendation. So the rule proposed to list 

4 natamycin as a prohibited substance in organic crop 

5 production.

6 Many comments, though, during rule 

7 making were received opposing that proposal. And 

8 so in the final rule, the proposal was not adopted. 

9 As such, natamycin does remain allowed. And so 

10 it is a reminder that there is a public comment 

11 process during the board process, but there's also 

12 a public comment process during rule making. And 

13 it is important to have your voice heard in both.

14 And so if you participate in the board 

15 process, also, come back and participate in the 

16 rule making process when things are published and 

17 proposed rules, because there's a full life-cycle 

18 of rule making that has to happen to take an NOSB 

19 recommendation and finalize it into a final policy. 

20 So I understand that some folks do want to keep 

21 an item open when NOP takes an action that many 

22 disagree with, or when a final action differs from 
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1 a board recommendation.

2 I commit to when we close an item, I'll 

3 try to be more specific on why we consider that 

4 item closed, and it will be from a process 

5 perspective, why we consider that item closed, and 

6 what the drivers and criteria are for that. I 

7 think that transparency is important for being open 

8 about the process and being clear on where things 

9 stand.

10 So now let's briefly talk about next 

11 steps here. First, again, I want to thank everyone 

12 who participated in the process that led to the 

13 summary that I just gave you. I want to talk about 

14 next steps and tools from here. So first, every 

15 six months approximately in the late spring and 

16 late fall, the Office of Management and Budget --

17 you know, we talked about them a lot now, OMB. 

18 They published what is called the Unified Federal 

19 Regulatory Agenda. Again, the Unified Federal 

20 Regulatory Agenda. You can Google that.

21 And it lists the rule making activities 

22 that the administration anticipates engaging on 
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1 in the next year and into the long term. That is 

2 the most important codified list for formal vetted 

3 decisions about rule making priorities. So you 

4 want to keep an eye on that for USDA and AMS to 

5 see what USDA has formally committed to as 

6 priorities in the rule making process.

7 So rules that are going to be 

8 anticipated for the next year or so are published 

9 in one part of the agenda. There's also another 

10 part of the agenda that lists long-term action. 

11 So those are things that there's no date attached 

12 to them yet, but the department considers them 

13 important. And so I encourage you to do the 

14 exercise of finding the agenda and looking at it 

15 for AMS to see what's on the list, and what the 

16 long-term actions are. And somebody's just typed 

17 in the link, which is wonderful. So thank you very 

18 much.

19 Now at the program level, we do maintain 

20 the NOSB recommendations library. It's available 

21 on the NOSB recommendations page. So after this 

22 meeting, I commit to you that I'm going to review 
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1 that list again. I'm going to update it based on 

2 what we've learned through this process. So there 

3 are a couple of that have been marked as closed, 

4 meaning we're not working on them. I'm going to 

5 change those, too. I might need to come up with 

6 a new category.

7 But I do believe that based on this 

8 exercise, but also based on this administration's 

9 sort of openness to working on practice standards 

10 that that list may change. So I'm going to update 

11 that including more details. If we do still 

12 consider an item to be closed or in process, why. 

13 So I'll give a bit more detail on that. We will 

14 also consider other ways to keep the community 

15 informed as we make decisions about priorities.

16 We do generally review standards, 

17 priorities as part of our regular program updates 

18 to NOSB. I will also try to share the reasons we've 

19 chosen not to move forward with certain priorities. 

20 And I know that people will still disagree with 

21 those decisions, but I will be clear with you on 

22 what the current decision is and why.
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1 We'll also look at how we might include 

2 more of this information in our memos to the NOSB 

3 that we complete after each meeting. Those are 

4 already standing mechanisms of communication. 

5 And so those have been sustained through multiple 

6 administrations as standardized tools that we use 

7 to communicate with the organic sector.

8 And so memos to the board are useful 

9 for communicating both to the board and the public. 

10 And since they're posted on our website as public 

11 comments, they can be tracked over time. And there 

12 are going to be times when we're going to say 

13 something in a memo to the NOSB, and a few months 

14 later, it will change because new information 

15 becomes available or priorities shift.

16 And so I do think there's always a 

17 little nervousness in putting on paper. Right 

18 now, we're committed to this, because if that 

19 changes down the road, well, you said five years 

20 ago that you were committed to this. And well, 

21 yes and that was five years ago. And so there has 

22 to be the ability to move over time and space as 
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1 conditions change. So I'm going to close there.

2 Again, thank you to everyone who 

3 participated in that process. That was a lot, but 

4 I think it was important to take the time to go 

5 through the summary because you took the time to 

6 have your voice be heard. And so thank you for 

7 listening to that readout. And I'm going to hand 

8 it back to Nate to facilitate any questions and 

9 feedback from the board.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Fantastic, thank you 

11 so much again for that update, Jenny. Round of 

12 applause. Thank you, this is -- it's exciting, 

13 our work is being heard, so we're really grateful 

14 for it, and there is more to do. So questions from 

15 the board for Jenny. This is sort of a general 

16 opportunity for Q and A from board members to the 

17 program. Carolyn, please go ahead.

18 DR. DIMITRI: Great. Thank you. 

19 Thank you for that update, Jenny. I have two 

20 questions about things that have been -- that 

21 predate me on the board, and so this is maybe also 

22 partly information gathering for myself. And one 
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1 is about native ecosystems, and the other is about 

2 inerts. And so there are two things that I 

3 actually know very little about.

4 And so I think for native ecosystems, 

5 I'm wondering, especially with this 

6 administration's interest in climate change, and 

7 I'm not really sure how native ecosystems fit into 

8 that. Is there, like, anything the NOSB can do 

9 to, like, reshape that or bring that to life, or 

10 is that just dead? Or I don't know if I'm allowed 

11 to be so blunt in my question, but that's me.

12 And then the other question with the 

13 inerts. Another thing that seems important to me, 

14 and it's like I'm not that kind of scientist, so 

15 I can't always wrap my head around it. It sounds 

16 to me like the NOP is going to take additional steps 

17 on this, and I'm just wondering if you can elaborate 

18 upon that process and how you see it going ahead. 

19 Thank you.

20 DR. TUCKER: Yeah. Great questions. 

21 Let me talk about native ecosystems first. Yeah, 

22 this is one where there's a lot of science involved. 
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1 There's also a lot of emotion involved. People 

2 feel very, very strongly about this, and it really 

3 does strike at the core of organic, some very key 

4 questions. The challenge with native ecosystems 

5 has been that there is the intent of the organic 

6 community and the intent of organic. And then 

7 there is the actual act, the Organic Foods 

8 Production Act, and what it says.

9 And so the recommendation from the 

10 NOSB, it drew outside the lines of OFPA. And so 

11 it called for, like, a ten-year transition period. 

12 So there were things in that recommendation that 

13 really can't -- there's not a line back to the act 

14 on how it would fit within what Congress actually 

15 authorized us to do regulations on. So the 

16 question is, what's next?

17 There's also questions of costs there, 

18 that's -- there's a question of whether it would 

19 actually discourage transition, and questions of 

20 costs. So economic impact of that role. So it 

21 is -- right now, it is -- we do take the 

22 recommendations seriously. We have done internal 
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1 sort of thinking and talking and analyzing on it. 

2 And as some of the public comments said, you really 

3 can't get around some of the legislative issues.

4 So the question is, I've heard from 

5 folks who are willing to compromise on this and 

6 who have learned a lot also about the boundaries 

7 of OFPA. And so the question is: Does the board 

8 want it back? Would you want to request a work 

9 agenda item to see if you can come up with a 

10 recommendation that would be more closely aligned 

11 with OFPA?

12 I'm open to that conversation, because 

13 right now it is not actively on a regulatory agenda. 

14 I think if the Board -- is this is something the 

15 Board wanted to take another stab at closer -- more 

16 closely aligned with OFPA, I'm open to hearing 

17 about that and having that conversation.

18 On inerts -- inerts is incredibly 

19 complicated. And the Board has come up with 

20 recommendations on inerts. There is no easy 

21 button on inerts. And so there was a 

22 recommendation from 2015 that really called on us 
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1 to work with EPA and the Safer Choice Program. 

2 We've been in touch with EPA and the Safer Choice 

3 Program, and it's not a good fit with them.

4 They have a very different theory of 

5 the case, in terms of their reason for being is 

6 very different. They don't have a list that is 

7 codified in the regulations, which is a problem 

8 for us in terms of how the process works. So I 

9 think the recommendation that the board came up 

10 with is -- it's just not feasible, given EPA's 

11 definition of their programs.

12 And so we have prepared an -- the board 

13 at that -- has discussed this. And I've put --

14 the general feeling was we need to hand the reins 

15 over to NOP and the community for a little bit, 

16 through an advanced notice of proposed 

17 rule-making, to get some concrete recommendations 

18 on what the best path is.

19 So what we've done is, we consolidated 

20 all the conversations that have had done to date 

21 with a number of options based on everything that's

22 been heard so far. And we've written it into an 
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1 advanced notice of proposed rule making. That 

2 would be a formal publication, the federal 

3 register, that everyone would then have the 

4 opportunity to comment on.

5 Based on that, it could either go back 

6 to the board for a very specific question. Or we 

7 could move ahead with the proposed rule, based on 

8 the feedback. It could go either way depending 

9 on what comes out of the ANPR. Carolyn, that was 

10 a lot of data, did it actually answer your question?

11 DR. DIMITRI: Yeah. Both of those 

12 were really wonderful answers. Thank you, Jenny. 

13 I think I have a much better sense of where, you 

14 know, where the world stands on those two very 

15 complicated and important issues. Thank you. I 

16 appreciate that.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

18 question, Carolyn. Next up, Kyla.

19 MS. SMITH: Jenny, thank you so much. 

20 That was a great update. I'm going to ask you 

21 a question not related to anything that you just 

22 talked about. So apologies about that. But this 
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1 is sort of top of my coming off of OTA's Organic 

2 Week. And that being that there's several 

3 situations happening on the international 

4 landscape that either are or have the potential 

5 to impact imports of certain commodities, mainly 

6 soybean meal and certain oils.

7 And so I just wanted to ask you, what 

8 do we all need to know and keep in mind, up and 

9 down the supply chain or other stakeholders, if 

10 and when we are hearing about these shortages and 

11 are trying to preemptively plan for shortages that 

12 are being caused by the international situations?

13 DR. TUCKER: Yeah, great question, 

14 really important in the daily lives of a lot of 

15 farmers and a lot of processors out there in the 

16 world. So I'm going to share with you and then 

17 by extension, the entire community here, our policy 

18 on this. So the question relates to the use of 

19 non-organic feed and ingredients in organic 

20 commodities and products.

21 So generally how the question comes to 

22 us, may I use non-organic feed to feed my livestock? 
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1 Or may I use a non-organic ingredient in my potato 

2 chips or whatever my processed product? And so 

3 since the start of the pandemic in fact, the program 

4 has periodically been asked if we would allow the 

5 temporary use of, for example, non-organic 

6 livestock feed for organic, as an example, poultry. 

7 And the temporary use of non-organic ingredients 

8 in processed food during -- due to different types 

9 of supply chain disruptions.

10 You know, our primary mission has to 

11 be to protect the integrity of the seal and to 

12 ensure a fair and competitive playing field. So 

13 requests for exemptions to the regulations, such 

14 as the use of non-organic feed and ingredients, 

15 are handled through a process called the Temporary 

16 Variance Process, which is laid out in the regs 

17 and the NOP handbook. Those requests come from 

18 certified operations through their certifiers to 

19 the NOP.

20 And so with respect to requests for 

21 non-organic feed, it is longstanding published 

22 policy and practice that temporary variances may 
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1 not be granted for feeding non-organic feed to 

2 organic livestock. This is outlined in NOP 2606, 

3 which is our instruction on temporary variances 

4 in the NOP handbook. This type of both formal and 

5 informal request has been submitted for dairy 

6 animals in the past due to drought. And we have 

7 rejected it every time.

8 So these supply chains have --

9 questions recently have been different. They 

10 focused more on poultry than on dairy, but our 

11 messaging and policies have been consistent over 

12 time on that. We've also received the question 

13 about non-organic ingredients. Most recently, we 

14 reviewed and evaluated two temporary variance 

15 requests to use conventional non-GMO sunflower oil 

16 in place of organic sunflower oil in certified 

17 organic processed products due to business 

18 interruption.

19 And so I'm going to get a little 

20 regulatorily wonky here because I think it's 

21 important. The regulations at 7 CFR 205.290e, 

22 which is temporary variance -- it's part of the 
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1 temporary variances section, says that temporary 

2 variances cannot be granted for any practice, 

3 material, or procedure, prohibited under 205.105, 

4 which is allowed and prohibited substance methods 

5 and ingredients. Now, sunflower oil is not listed 

6 in 205.606, which is non-organically produced 

7 agricultural products allowed as ingredients.

8 And so as such, non-agricultural sun 

9 -- non-organic sunflower oil is a material that 

10 would be prohibited under 205.105d, and therefore 

11 may not be used in products labeled as organic. 

12 And so these are regulatory constructs that are 

13 laid out in the temporary variance section and its 

14 cross references throughout the regulations.

15 And so the use of only organic feed for 

16 organic animals and the use of organic ingredients 

17 in organic products, or it's consistent with the 

18 regulation, and is a core expectation for 

19 consumers, and is essential to maintain a fair and 

20 competitive market. And so I did want to -- I 

21 appreciate the question. We've been getting that 

22 question enough, but I think it's useful to review, 
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1 even though it's wonky, the full picture in this 

2 public setting. Again, that was a lot. How did 

3 we do?

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Great. That was the 

5 wonkiness we need right now. It's a tumultuous 

6 time, so really appreciate the depth you do in 

7 there. Next up, we have Wood.

8 MR. TURNER: Thanks as always, Jenny. 

9 I apologize. It's going to be a little bit long 

10 as well, but I'll try to keep it brief. You know, 

11 as I'm listening to Sean Babington speak this 

12 morning and referencing this issue, and then trying 

13 to sort of reconcile the conversation -- the 

14 presentation from Adam Chambers with this sort of 

15 need for data. And sort of deeper data and deeper 

16 harmonization.

17 You know, something it's on my mind 

18 relative to that topic is the fact that we still 

19 have very persistent areas of certification for 

20 folks that don't have for socially disadvantaged 

21 farmers, you don't have access to as many systems, 

22 don't have access to the data collection tools and 
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1 the like, and so I'm just -- it's hard to sort of 

2 almost process sort of where we need to go relative 

3 to kind of the need for data.

4 And I'm just curious, I know you have 

5 spoken to this before, but I'm curious about 

6 progress that's being made at USDA and in the NOP 

7 to make sure that resources are getting allocated 

8 to farmers who have been -- who don't have access 

9 to the kinds of resources that are needed to be 

10 able to ensure sort of an affordable certification 

11 process. And I'm just curious about partnerships 

12 that may exist that sort of help ensure that folks 

13 who have not had access or not had as much 

14 opportunity to participate in the program, are 

15 getting some of these funding opportunities to a 

16 variety of means.

17 So if you could speak to that a little 

18 bit. And if you can put it in context for some 

19 of these leaps forward that I think the reference 

20 in some of what Adam particularly was talking about 

21 today. That would be really helpful, if that make 

22 sense.
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1 DR. TUCKER: Yeah, it does make sense. 

2 And so let me briefly talk through -- there is 

3 a significant interest in the topic of how best 

4 to support farmers going through organic 

5 transition. And so last year, Secretary Vilsack 

6 did announce that USDA would be providing 200 

7 million to support organic transition initiatives 

8 with a goal of building more, and better, and fairer 

9 markets for any farmer with interest, by helping 

10 farmers navigate transition and supporting a 

11 strong market.

12 The details associated with that 

13 organic transition program are being developed 

14 right now. And so we've heard a lot from 

15 stakeholders on the needs of transitioning 

16 farmers. So the importance of consistent 

17 standards and the importance of protecting those 

18 standards, but also the need to support 

19 transitioning farmers and remove those supply 

20 chain barriers.

21 And so we've heard that the need for 

22 direct farmer to farmer mentoring and technical 
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1 assistance to really have somebody right in your 

2 community who can help you understand, and navigate 

3 the technical aspects, who speaks in your language, 

4 and who understands not only the physical 

5 environment, but the cultural environment, the 

6 market environment that you're working in. And 

7 the need to engage knowledgeable really local 

8 partners that provide very much hands on, like, 

9 field base assistance, workshops, field days, 

10 access to local resources, and peer-to-peer 

11 mentoring.

12 And a range of topics, things like 

13 agronomy, certification, extension services, 

14 where do I go to get help, conservation planning, 

15 business development, navigating the supply chain, 

16 regulations, and even local marketing. 

17 Strengthening the link between conservation 

18 management and organic transition. That comes up 

19 over and over and over again.

20 We can do some of that at headquarters 

21 here. We can work closely with NRCS to talk about 

22 how do we get these systems better aligned. But 
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1 we also need to build the expertise across USDA 

2 to build a pool of organic inspectors, really 

3 focusing on those underserved -- traditionally 

4 underserved area in a way that supports equity 

5 while also developing market.

6 So that's a lot of need out in the 

7 community, and we have heard that those are the 

8 types of services that would help make that 

9 on-boarding into transition a bit easier. Again, 

10 we're not ready, USDA is not quite ready to announce 

11 a sort of a -- the formal program, but those are 

12 the types of things we've heard, and it does build 

13 on that commitment that Secretary Vilsack made 

14 about a year ago on organic transition.

15 So I don't -- right now, would have the 

16 specifics of that program to talk about. But I 

17 can tell you that it is a big point of interest 

18 and emphasis within the administration.

19 MR. TURNER: Appreciate the progress. 

20 Thank you.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

22 ahead.
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1 MS. BRUCH: Sure. Thanks, Nate. 

2 Jenny, thank you for your detailed explanations 

3 to our questions that you're -- that we're 

4 answering -- or asking. Anyway, I have a two-part 

5 question on economics. I know economics is an 

6 additional metric the NOP leverages in order to 

7 evaluate the NOSB recommendations and to turn them 

8 into rules.

9 First part is, can you elaborate from 

10 what point of view economics are considered, since 

11 the organic community is diverse and consists of 

12 organic certificate holders and non-certificate 

13 holders. I just wanted to know that perspective 

14 of which viewpoint you look at and consider.

15 And then secondarily, I just wanted to 

16 know the timeline that you are also evaluating when 

17 considering economics. Because from a point of 

18 view of one group, costs might be high on the front 

19 end, but if you look at another group's point of 

20 view, they could incur significant cost down the 

21 road or accumulative cost.

22 DR. TUCKER: Yeah, you know, they have 
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1 entire courses on that question.

2 MS. BRUCH: Yeah.

3 DR. TUCKER: But I'm going to give a 

4 bit of an overview, because I think we are all 

5 learning a whole lot about what the Office of 

6 Management and Budget, again, OMB, is really 

7 interested in when it comes to cost with these 

8 rules. We learned as a team a lot in writing and 

9 finalizing, strengthening organic enforcement 

10 origin of livestock and in the OLPS process. And 

11 so -- and this is something that we don't consider 

12 as much at the board level, but is -- comes front 

13 and center during rule making.

14 And I think that is some of the times 

15 the disconnect, where people that go well, the 

16 board process should be, that is the thing. You 

17 know, what it -- what about all this stuff. It's 

18 the board stuff that really is at the heart of it. 

19 And we have to remember that rule making is under 

20 a completely different set of rules. That's 

21 called the Administrative Procedures Act, and OMB 

22 governs how rules consider economic analysis. And 
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1 that's really separate from any back-up process 

2 that governs the board.

3 And so I think there is a little bit 

4 of a switch that happens when we get to rule-making 

5 in terms of economics becoming kind of front and 

6 center. And so if OMB deems a rule significant 

7 or economically significant, meaning it hits a 

8 certain cost threshold, that we have a number of 

9 steps we need to go through for economics. Now, 

10 most organic regulations beyond routine national 

11 list rules are considered significant, because 

12 they raise policy issues that are novel, and 

13 therefore they required economic analysis.

14 So what does that actually mean? There 

15 are actually nine steps to it. We have to identify 

16 what the need is, so what is the problem to solve? 

17 We have to define the baseline in terms of how 

18 much does it cost now. So origin of livestock just 

19 published, that's an easy one to talk about. What 

20 is happening? So what are the practices out there 

21 and how much did those practices cost?

22 What is the time horizon of analysis? 
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1 So how quickly do farmers need to change their 

2 practices to a new method, and for how long will 

3 those cost be incurred. If you're talking about 

4 changes to capital investments like buildings and 

5 things like that, there maybe a longer time 

6 calculations and sometimes agencies use, for 

7 example, IRS depreciation models to figure those 

8 types of things out.

9 So there are a lot of different kinds 

10 of data that you can use to define the baseline 

11 and the time horizon on when things would change. 

12 Generally, you identify a range of regulatory 

13 alternatives, so no action is always an 

14 alternative. And then there may be different 

15 types of alternatives that have different costs 

16 with them. Sometimes those different 

17 alternatives relate to how long it will take for 

18 the implementation period, because different costs 

19 maybe incurred over different time periods.

20 What are the consequences of those 

21 alternatives, you have to describe sort of, 

22 therefore, what's the if-then consequences of each 
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1 of those alternatives, and quantify and monetize 

2 the benefits and costs. You also have to discount 

3 the future benefits and costs. And so they're all 

4 sorts of economic formulas and very complex Excel 

5 worksheets that go into these things.

6 There's also non-quantified and 

7 non-monetized benefits and costs. So I think one 

8 of the things we struggle with in organic is 

9 quantifying the benefits. So how do you quantify 

10 the benefit of a rule, because it turns out, you 

11 know, consumer expectations sounds lovely and is 

12 really hard to attach a number to when it comes 

13 to something like origin of livestock, right? And 

14 so how do you find the numbers that support the 

15 benefits?

16 And how do you find the cost figures 

17 when you're working in a public-private 

18 partnership where certifiers have a lot of this 

19 data, and there's a full range of production 

20 practices. So those costs really do relate to 

21 whatever the rule is at hand. And how do you 

22 quantify or describe the consumer benefits or the 
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1 benefits to producers?

2 Now, it was interesting in SOE and this 

3 was in the proposed rule that was published. So 

4 I can talk about that. That the benefits outlined 

5 in SOE related to the avoidance of fraud. And so 

6 if you're decreasing the incidents of food fraud, 

7 you have to make all sorts of estimations based 

8 on published research on how much does food fraud 

9 cost. And if you take these actions, how much food 

10 fraud are you going to cut out of the system? And 

11 how much money is that going to save?

12 Again, it's very, very quantitative. 

13 And so we often in organic talk about the intent 

14 of the act, or our consumer expectations, or all 

15 of the non-quantified benefits, just like the 

16 climate conversation with data -- OMB likes data 

17 a lot. They really like data. And that's hard, 

18 and so the costs are considered -- the benefits 

19 are calculated based specifically on the 

20 alternatives in a rule, what the rule is going to 

21 do, and how it changes practices.

22 So for example, origin of livestock may 
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1 have actually a big impact in the market. The 

2 costs are actually relatively reasonably low 

3 compared to other kinds of rules. Now it might 

4 cost certain types of operations money, and there 

5 might be disproportionate costs based on the size 

6 of the operation and the current practices to 

7 change those practices.

8 And SOE, Strengthening Organic 

9 Enforcement, a lot of the cost are actually 

10 paperwork in nature, that certifiers need to do 

11 more supply chain analysis. So it's a lot of the 

12 costs of that verification need to be taken into 

13 account. So again, time analysis, time periods, 

14 and the actual cost and the audiences impacted vary 

15 by rule and by the data that is associated with 

16 a stakeholders who are actually impacted by those 

17 rules. I'm going to pause there for follow-up or 

18 questions. That might have been more than you 

19 wanted.

20 MS. BRUCH: No, that was really helpful 

21 to just understand, just because I do know, again, 

22 our community consists of those that hold 
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1 certificates and those that do not. And we work 

2 together in concert. So it was just helpful to 

3 hear that in a bigger picture of how these things 

4 are evaluated. Thank you.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Sorry about that. 

6 Thank you for the questions so far. As we move 

7 forward, we are running well into the lunch hour. 

8 So if folks could try to keep them succinct, you 

9 keep your questions succinct so we can all get to 

10 through everyone, and still have the time for a 

11 break, that would be great. So Allison, please 

12 go ahead.

13 MS. JOHNSON: I'll cut my long rambling 

14 preface to the question then. Thanks, Jenny, for 

15 your time and for the focus on climate smart 

16 agriculture today. I think it's really exciting 

17 to have recognition within our world of what 

18 organic can contribute to the conversation, and 

19 I'm excited to see it on our work agenda. And I'm 

20 curious, if you could say a little bit more about 

21 what you see the NOSB's role and our stake holders 

22 role in advising the program and raising the 
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1 profile of organic within USDA and the 

2 administration at large as a climate solution.

3 DR. TUCKER: I will also keep this 

4 short. I think the -- it's so important to come 

5 up with practical solutions. Climate can feel so 

6 big, and so multi-dimensional, and so messy. I 

7 would love the board to come back with 

8 recommendations that are practical for farmers and 

9 that help us communicate effectively about climate 

10 change both across USDA and with farmers.

11 And so, a lot of the questions we've 

12 asked are pretty concrete because it can get so 

13 big and so esoteric. But I do think, you know, 

14 the path for work can centralize so much around 

15 organic practices that are already being done. 

16 How do we explain it? How do we capitalize it? 

17 How do we capture it? How do we tell that story 

18 using data in a compelling way? How do we help 

19 organic farmers navigate that world? But I would 

20 love to see a focus on practical impact out in the 

21 community.

22 MR. POWELL-PALM: Javier, please go 
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1 ahead.

2 MR. ZAMORA: Thanks, Nate. Thanks, 

3 Jenny. Anything they throw at you, it seems like 

4 you are very well prepared, and I really appreciate 

5 that. So my comments and my couple of questions 

6 that I have are really simple. I wanted to ask 

7 you, you describe the process and you summarized 

8 really nicely the different comments that we got 

9 written and verbal comments during the time the 

10 people, the public were able to make comments.

11 And one of the first questions is, and 

12 then there's a second period during the 

13 implementation of the ruling, that there's another 

14 opportunity for the public to make some comments. 

15 But not everyone does that. They don't return. 

16 And my question is: Do you -- does the NOP take 

17 -- consider the first set of comments at the 

18 beginning for the second process of 

19 implementation? Again, I'm new maybe, yes, but 

20 that's one.

21 And I'm saying this because sometimes 

22 there is a limit of how many people can actually 
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1 make comments. I'm talking about farmers and 

2 constituents around here. So it's limited, it's 

3 not for everybody. So maybe as they're doing the 

4 implementation of the ruling, it's -- it gets a 

5 little more corporate because people are following 

6 what's going on. So those initial farmers don't 

7 really have the opportunity to make comments again, 

8 because maybe limited to how many people. That's 

9 one.

10 And then, you also talked about changes 

11 of, you know, the percentage of the rule making 

12 doesn't get out of the pipeline. And a lot of 

13 people were very frustrated with that. What's the 

14 percentage of changes in, let's say the board, the 

15 NOSB board, some part of it now decides to makes 

16 a rule, but then it's an adverse at the end. What's 

17 the percentage of that? Because I hear, like, it's 

18 a high percentage.

19 And then I guess that's about it. But 

20 anything that as we talk and how fellow board 

21 members, how they're -- how smart they are. It 

22 sounds like there's questions, and questions, 
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1 questions about just every little thing. And I 

2 would probably be here for a week. But anyway, 

3 those are all my questions. I really appreciate 

4 you taking them on.

5 DR. TUCKER: Yeah, they're great 

6 questions. And so, I'll take the first one first 

7 about kind of these two phases of board work and 

8 rule-making work. And I do talk about 

9 participating in both. When we write a proposed 

10 rule -- so we do pick up a board recommendation, 

11 we write a proposal. That proposed rule, we do 

12 take the board input very seriously. And in fact, 

13 a lot of that proposed rule really describes what 

14 the recommendation was.

15 And it wouldn't even -- that -- it's 

16 very important background and context for why we're 

17 proposing it and how we propose it in the rule. 

18 So all of that work into the board process does 

19 feed forward into that proposed rule phase. I've 

20 gotten some really interesting recommendations and 

21 comments about how that tie-back could be stronger.

22 So for example, in the supporting 
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1 documents part of the docket, when we approach a 

2 rule, could we be more overt in linking back to 

3 board to work on a topic to make that connection 

4 more complete, so people who are working in the 

5 rule-making process can see all the work they might 

6 not be aware of, all the work that went into that. 

7 And that seems like a really good idea to me to 

8 tie those processes together and say, hey, this 

9 recommendation came out of an awful lot of work.

10 And we do describe those in the proposed 

11 rule. The comment period, what we do, though, in 

12 a proposed rule that differs from what the board 

13 does, is we do, for example, for the significant 

14 rule, do a fairly detailed economic analysis, all 

15 the stuff I just talked about, in the answer to 

16 the last question, which is in the proposed rule, 

17 that isn't part of that NOSB recommendation. So 

18 it is new information.

19 And I think -- so for that phase, we 

20 do need everybody kind of commenting again on 

21 whether the costs are accurate, whether we miss 

22 costs or their benefits for which there are data 
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1 that we haven't captured. So the proposed rule 

2 does capture the Board's work, but it also has this 

3 additional cost component, which is why it's so 

4 important to continue the comment process.

5 You know, we had three phases of public 

6 comments for Origin of Livestock, where we over, 

7 and over, and over, and over, and over again asked 

8 please give us more cost data. Please give us more 

9 data that -- to inform this rule-making. That's 

10 where -- that part isn't really part of what the 

11 Board tends to look at because of the criteria that 

12 the Board is considering is different from the 

13 rule-making process.

14 So I think that's why both phases are 

15 important, and why they're different, and why 

16 people who really do care about the economics are 

17 paying very close attention in the rule-making 

18 process, because that's where rule making -- that's 

19 where the economics tend to play out is in the 

20 rule-making process, not the Board process. So 

21 they're slightly different emphasis points.

22 In terms of the amount of rule-making 
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1 that moves ahead, we do keep a -- it's kind of the 

2 score card, that recommendations library that we 

3 update. It has the percentage complete of all the 

4 recommendations that have come from the Board, what 

5 we've completed. Now, according to our tally, I'm 

6 going to use the lowest number.

7 For practice standards, it shows that 

8 we have implemented more than 80 percent of the 

9 Board's recommendation. We don't always 

10 implement those things through rule-making. But 

11 sometimes, I said it earlier, you don't have to 

12 change the rule. What you need to do is enforce 

13 the rule, or perhaps as dealt with through 

14 training, or guidance, or handbooks. The 

15 rule-making process is really long.

16 And so we have to pick those -- you have 

17 to pick those carefully in terms of, we only get 

18 so many points with all the different steps of the 

19 review process. Because we're competing with 

20 every other program, and every other agency for 

21 limited capacity at OMB, limited capacity at USDA. 

22 In all the different offices, I have to look at 
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1 all these rules. And there's -- there is the 

2 reality of political cycles, the reality of through 

3 put, and what can make it through all these 

4 different offices.

5 So that's why sometimes we don't move 

6 ahead with rule making. I do think we want to be 

7 -- I want to make sure that we're communicating 

8 more actively about when priorities change and why 

9 they change. Because we're all learning as we move 

10 here, and we're all learning what works, and we're 

11 all learning what doesn't work. And I think as 

12 long as we're all willing to learn together, we're 

13 going to be fine.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Ryan, please go 

15 ahead.

16 MR. CALDWELL: Well, Jenny, thanks so 

17 much for sharing all this with us. I cannot 

18 believe how many balls you have in the air. It's 

19 just shocking to me, but, you know what I mean, 

20 amazing job with it. I hope this can be -- hope 

21 ti can be quick. You mentioned that more 

22 information was needed in order to move the whole 
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1 hydroponics issue forward. But I'm wondering if 

2 you can just elaborate briefly on exactly what 

3 types of information are needed there?

4 DR. TUCKER: So this is -- there was 

5 a 2010 recommendation on containers, so it's often 

6 kind of referred to hydroponics and containers, 

7 that's often referred to. When you actually read 

8 the recommendation, there's not a lot of detail. 

9 It's a fairly short part of that recommendation. 

10 And so standards, you know, container standards 

11 would be -- so if we worked on container standards, 

12 somebody suggested -- a few suggested in the 

13 comments that it would need to be, like, a separate 

14 section of the regs.

15 For example, if there was a separate 

16 section of the regs. There's a lot of technical 

17 work that would need to go into that. And so --

18 and to defining what those standards would be for 

19 those types of production systems. We do not, at 

20 the program level, have that level of expertise. 

21 So the task force -- we did have a task force that 

22 worked on this issue before the Board voted on 
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1 hydroponics. I think it was 2017.

2 So there was a lot of work that went 

3 into that task force, but a lot of that work was 

4 on sort of the pros and cons of the system. Not 

5 what the standards would actually be, what those 

6 producers would actually have to do to comply. 

7 And we don't have that technical -- we have the 

8 regs that bind us all, and a shared set of standards 

9 that bind us all. But I think the point or the 

10 feedback has been they need to be more specific 

11 in order to ensure consistency and fairness.

12 And that's where I think a process would 

13 be needed to articulate what those standards would 

14 be. So right now, the USDA organic standards do 

15 govern that system, but more specificity would help 

16 implement them more consistently across different 

17 production systems, because systems are different 

18 in different parts of the country. So that kind 

19 of standards development work at a level of 

20 granularity is needed that we don't have right now.

21 MR. CALDWELL: Great. Thanks.

22 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, everyone 
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1 for those questions. And thank you, Jenny, for 

2 fielding such a wide variety of questions all at 

3 once. Really appreciate your insight, and you 

4 said you can get us into the program on that. All 

5 right, folks, we are right pushing up to lunchtime 

6 -- well, actually, pushed well past it. So thank 

7 you for the great conversation.

8 Let's come back at half past the next 

9 hour. So it's 43 after right now. Let's give 

10 ourselves about 45 minutes for lunch. Livestock 

11 is looking pretty lean, so we'll be all right, I 

12 think, on timing. So let's plan to come back half 

13 past the hour in whatever time zone you're in. 

14 And we'll pick up with livestock right after that.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

16 went off the record.)

17 MR. D'AMORE: Yeah. Well, you've got 

18 a long history with the organics, and it's nice 

19 to see that some of us just have a long history 

20 with an aspect of farming or handling. And it 

21 doesn't always have to be or have been organics. 

22 And as I said earlier, today, I was doing all of 
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1 that before organics was born.

2 And by the time it was born, was getting 

3 enough traction from, you know, hydroponically 

4 grown or living lettuce, or whatever you wanted 

5 to say. But there -- there's no doubt that this 

6 organic seal was something precious and something 

7 we have got to continue to nurture. Yeah. Okay. 

8 Well, I'm going to stop yacking and get my desk 

9 straightened up, and thank you for responding.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

11 MR. D'AMORE: Yeah. Take care.

12 MR. CALDWELL: Jenny, thanks for that 

13 quick answer on that last one, I was worried about 

14 asking yet another question as we went in to our 

15 lunch, but you made it very quick, so that's great.

16 DR. TUCKER: Great questions today. 

17 I enjoyed the discussion.

18 MR. CALDWELL: Your answer -- your 

19 detailed answers were wonderful, and like I said, 

20 I can't believe you can carry all that in your head. 

21 That's amazing, so --

22 DR. TUCKER: I got to tell you, I love 
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1 what I do, and I love us and that makes all the 

2 difference in the world.

3 MR. CALDWELL: Great. Great.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Welcome 

5 back, folks. Half past, whichever hour you are 

6 in, so hope everyone got a little sustenance to 

7 keep us through the afternoon. We're going to be 

8 jumping right into livestock subcommittee. And 

9 this is going to be a fairly quick run-through, 

10 because we are not voting on any of the materials. 

11 We're just hearing from the board members who have 

12 taken on becoming experts in these materials. So 

13 I'm going to hand it off to Kim Huseman, the 

14 chairperson of the livestock subcommittee. And 

15 we'll go from there. Kim, all yours.

16 MS. HUSEMAN: Thank you, Nate. 

17 Welcome, everybody back this afternoon. The 

18 livestock subcommittee currently has a fairly 

19 light agenda. We do have six sunsets, though, that 

20 will be presented for voting in the fall. And it's 

21 been about six months since we've gone through 

22 these, so bear with us as we get our cadence down. 
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1 But we're going to start with the first sunset 

2 review, which will be chlorhexidine.

3 And I am actually also the lead for this 

4 particular sunset review. So I'll go ahead and 

5 hand it over to Kim. So we'll go ahead and get 

6 started here then on our first that review, 

7 chlorhexidine. Chlorhexidine is listed under 205 

8 603(a ) as a disinfectant, sanitizer, and medical 

9 treatments as applicable. For medical procedures 

10 conducted under the supervision of a licensed 

11 veterinarian. Allowed for the use as a teat dip 

12 when alternative germicidal agents, and/or 

13 physical barriers have lost their effectiveness.

14 Do want to point out that in the initial 

15 sunset review, we used the word surgical 

16 procedures. However, as per the national list, 

17 medical procedures under -- conducted under the 

18 supervision of a licensed veterinarian is the most 

19 technical verbiage. So in reviewing the written 

20 comments, and actually -- and oral comments during 

21 last week, did get a dozen responders for 

22 chlorhexidine.
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1 The majority of the responders, 

2 including two veterinarians, did speak in the 

3 affirmation to keep chlorhexidine on the national 

4 list as a medical procedure used by a veterinarian. 

5 And spoke very highly of the necessity in those 

6 particular time periods, as well as a significant 

7 support for utilizing chlorhexidine as an 

8 alternative teat dip when other asked -- or when 

9 other products are not as effective.

10 We'll note that there was some comments 

11 regarding the use of a teat dip needing to be 

12 analyzed, and the review of the annotations should 

13 revert back to only for medical procedures. 

14 Essentially stating that necessity and natural 

15 alternatives being sufficient. However, in 

16 saying that, both dairy operators and 

17 veterinarians have supported the use of it as a 

18 alternative to a teat dip when other germicidal 

19 agents are not responding.

20 That was essentially the review for 

21 chlorhexidine. Any comments or questions? All 

22 right, seeing none, we will move on to glucose. 
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1 And for -- let's see, I'm sorry. I have 

2 tolazoline, sorry, listed next here, on -- on page 

3 -- or on paper at least. And so tolazoline will 

4 be Amy.

5 MS. BRUCH: Okay. Thank you, Kim. 

6 Tolazoline, so we're at 205603, and this is part 

7 A as disinfectant, sanitizer, and medical 

8 treatment as applicable. And then tolazoline goes 

9 on to say federal law restricts this drug to be 

10 used by whereon a lawful written, or oral order 

11 of a licensed veterinarian in full compliance with 

12 the AMDUCA, and the FDA regulations.

13 And then also for use under 7 CFR part 

14 205, it requires, one, used by or on the lawful 

15 written order of a licensed veterinarian. Two, 

16 use only to reverse the effects of sedation caused 

17 by xylazine. And three, a neat withdraw period 

18 of at least eight days after administering to 

19 livestock intended for slaughter, and a milk 

20 discard period of at least four days after 

21 administering to dairy animals.

22 So there's quite a few restrictions 
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1 with this substance here. There's quite a bit of 

2 information out on use, manufacture, and 

3 international allowance. Currently right now, 

4 tolazoline is not listed as improved substance 

5 internationally or on food X, or IFO. 

6 Environmental issues with this particular 

7 substance is -- there's no published toxicity or 

8 carcinogenic studies on the toxicity or lethal 

9 dosage of tolazoline.

10 It is, though, listed by the EPA as an 

11 inert ingredient. The main question we had for 

12 stakeholders on tolazoline is just if there were 

13 any new non-synthetic substances that could be used 

14 to reverse the effect of xylazine and other 

15 sedatives as effectively as tolazoline. So that 

16 particular question in general, the community --

17 most folks were stating that they were unaware of 

18 any additional substitutes for this particular 

19 product.

20 But there was one commenter out of all 

21 of them that did comment that mentioned there were 

22 two substances that could potentially be used, but 
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1 there is not a history of them being used with 

2 regularity in farm animal medicine. So that was 

3 basically the answers and substitutions. And then 

4 comments in general, just to summarize those, 

5 tolazoline and xylazine are always used together. 

6 So there was a comment to say, can we review these 

7 two in concert during the sunset process. I 

8 thought that was interesting.

9 Another commenter mentioned that 

10 keeping emergency treatments such as xylazine and 

11 tolazoline on the national list will allow working 

12 livestock producers to both provide emergency care 

13 to sick animals and maintain their organic status. 

14 So all the comments were generally in favor of 

15 keeping this on the list.

16 The last thing, and this might be 

17 something to asterisk for address during xylazine 

18 sunset, was just there's some conflicting 

19 information between the usage from an FDA 

20 standpoint and the AMDCA. So that is something 

21 that the Board wrestled with a little bit back in 

22 2015, when the last time this was reviewed. And 
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1 then in the tap there is some information that leads 

2 us to believe that maybe we want to take this up 

3 as a work agenda item to kind of dive into those 

4 conflicting view points on the usage of xylazine. 

5 So if there's conflicting uses to xylazine, then 

6 that would impact tolazoline. Amy.

7 MS. ARSENAULT: Any questions for Amy 

8 on tolazoline. Not seeing any hands go up. We 

9 will move forward. The next sunset review is 

10 copper sulfate, and this one belongs to Nate.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

12 you. So we have copper sulfate. It's on the 

13 national list of allowed synthetic substances for 

14 use in organic livestock production under 205.603, 

15 as a topical treatment, external parasiticides, 

16 or local anesthetic. Overall, comments, 

17 especially from producers, primarily dairy 

18 producers, were in favor of retaining this 

19 material. And that is an essential tool in the 

20 toolbox.

21 The uses of copper, as we've discussed 

22 in kind of across the sub-committees, is tricky. 
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1 We do understand that it's a potential contaminant 

2 for the environment. And we're always looking for 

3 ways to identify other materials that might be able 

4 to serve the same purpose, while maintaining animal 

5 welfare and efficacy.

6 So as we look to alternatives, we did 

7 hear more talk about zinc, and identifying animal 

8 welfare practices that might reduce the outbreak 

9 of problems, especially in cattle production. 

10 It's something that I would love more input as we 

11 move into the fall meeting. But also thank you 

12 to all of the commenters who did bring really good 

13 information about their operations and their 

14 communities' operations on this material.

15 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Nate. Any 

16 questions for Nate on copper sulfate?

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think Jerry has 

18 one,

19 MS. BRUCH: Oh, Jerry.

20 MR. D'AMORE: Not so much a question, 

21 but a willingness to share with you a brand new 

22 TR on this subject that's going to be coming in 
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1 within a month. It's supposed to be 65 pages long. 

2 But that's not how you judge a content. But I'm 

3 -- I concur with what you said. We are aware, it 

4 prompted us to the -- certainly at the crop 

5 subcommittee to go ahead and order another TR and 

6 I just would like to emphasize, as you said, across 

7 subcommittees, it's something certainly we are 

8 keeping our eye up.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that. 

10 Javier has a question.

11 MR. ZAMORA: Yeah. I'm just having a 

12 little bit of a hard time hearing some board 

13 members, like Jerry, the last one. I can hardly 

14 hear him. And I think he's speaking maybe too 

15 softly.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think Jerry's mic 

17 picked up for me a bit. It was a little cloudy 

18 this morning, but it definitely got -- has 

19 improved.

20 MR. D'AMORE: Javier, I would like --

21 I don't know what to say to that other than talking 

22 louder, and that's what I'll do.
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1 MS. HUSEMAN: We can hear you better 

2 there, Jerry.

3 MR. D'AMORE: Thank you all. 

4 Appreciate it.

5 MS. HUSEMAN: All right. Any other 

6 questions for Nate? Seeing none, we'll go ahead 

7 and proceed. And the next sunset review is 

8 elemental sulfur. And elemental sulfur belongs 

9 to Brian.

10 MR. CALDWELL: Thanks, Kim. And I'm 

11 usually criticized for talking too loud. So if 

12 I'm too loud, Javier, just let me know. So we're 

13 going to look at sulfur. And sulfur is used for 

14 many different purposes in organic agriculture. 

15 And this is at 205.63 B, as a topical treatment 

16 for synthetic substance used in organic livestock 

17 production.

18 And basically, the comments are -- were 

19 pretty much not -- not 100 percent in favor, but 

20 I have, in my count, I had eight in favor of 

21 relisting, and one saying more review was needed, 

22 and one against saying that it was not essential. 
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1 The question that we asked was: Are there 

2 alternatives that are sufficient to control 

3 external livestock pests? And basically we got 

4 no answer to that. We did get a listing of some 

5 materials that could be used, but there was no 

6 information about efficacy.

7 So essentially, in 2,000 -- the first 

8 time that this was proposed for use, it was added 

9 to the national list in 2019, and at that point, 

10 some livestock folks were saying that it was really 

11 an important need for their systems. So we got 

12 -- we have that in favor of it being essential, 

13 and then one person saying -- or one group saying 

14 that it was not essential, but no information about 

15 any efficacy of alternative controls. So I think 

16 -- just looking to see if there's any other -- any 

17 aspects that I wanted to bring up. Otherwise, I 

18 think it's pretty straightforward. So any 

19 questions on that one?

20 MS. ARSENAULT: Okay. Seeing no hands 

21 raised for Brian for elemental sulfur. Well done, 

22 Brian. Go ahead and move forward to lidocaine. 
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1 And lidocaine goes back to you, Nate.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. So 

3 lidocaine is used as a topical treatment for 

4 external parasiticides or local anesthetic. 

5 Mostly as we've heard, lidocaine is used for pain 

6 relief, especially in the dehorning of cattle. 

7 And I think lidocaine is one of those materials 

8 in the organic toolbox that helps keep organic 

9 really at the forefront of animal welfare.

10 And I think we heard that that dehorning 

11 and horn management in especially dairy cows, is 

12 a common practice that we all have to deal with. 

13 But having this tool available to reduce pain and 

14 suffering is very much in line with OFPA. And that 

15 was echoed in the public comments, both written 

16 and oral.

17 MS. HUSEMAN: Thank you, Nate. Are 

18 there any questions? All right. Seeing none, 

19 we'll move forward to glucose. And glucose is the 

20 last sunset item for livestock. This one belongs 

21 to Liz. So Liz, your first sunset review process, 

22 take it away.
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1 MS. GRAZNAK: All right. I appreciate 

2 Nate's confidence in all of us in that we become 

3 very knowledgeable about these subjects. Okay. 

4 Glucose is a synthetic substance allowed in 

5 organic livestock production for medical 

6 treatment. For animal health purposes, it is 

7 primarily used as an aid in treatment of cattle 

8 when they go into negative energy balance, 

9 oftentimes after calving.

10 And this is also, well, it's known as 

11 ketosis, And glucose is a remedy for dehydration 

12 as well in cows and horses. My veterinary friend 

13 likened it to humans drinking orange juice when 

14 we need an energy boost. The main question that 

15 we had for stakeholders was whether or not other 

16 substances are available for the treatment of 

17 ketosis.

18 And if it is an equally necessary and 

19 effective tool for organic farmers for treatment 

20 of all stages of the development of ketosis. 

21 Generally, the comments that we got back, which 

22 weren't very many, were from the community that 
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1 they emphatically support the need for the use of 

2 glucose, and that it definitely should remain on 

3 the national list without further annotation.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Nice work, Liz.

5 MS. HUSEMAN: Great job, Liz. All 

6 right. Any questions for Liz on glucose? All 

7 right. Seeing none, we have concluded all of the 

8 sunset reviews for the spring meeting in the 

9 livestock group.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Fantastic. Thank 

11 you, Kim. One thing I will just throw in there 

12 leading onto Liz's comment. It is a pretty tall 

13 order. When you are a board member, you come with 

14 certain expertise, and you may not be assigned 

15 subcommittees that reflect your expertise. So 

16 say, Liz is primarily, to my understanding, a 

17 vegetable grower. She doesn't deal with cows, but 

18 she has to learn a lot to be a good digester of 

19 information on behalf of the community.

20 So I think some folks jump on the Board 

21 thinking I'm just going to really bring my 

22 expertise to the subcommittees that most align with 
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1 my experience. Unfortunately, that's not always 

2 an option. We need folks to serve on all the 

3 committees. So thank you, everyone, for going 

4 outside your comfort zones and doing really good 

5 work.

6 Next up, we're going to be moving on 

7 to compliance, accreditation, and certification 

8 subcommittee. I love reading that out because I 

9 always say CACS, and I really never remember what 

10 it stands for. So compliance, accreditation, 

11 certification subcommittee, and this is chaired 

12 by Amy Bruch.

13 MS. BRUCH: Hey, thank you, Nate. 

14 First off, I just want to extend a sincere 

15 appreciation to the subcommittee for the 

16 authenticity and diversity of perspectives that 

17 allow for valuable discussions on our work agenda 

18 items. And due to that robust deliberations that 

19 we do have, we're looking to extend our meeting 

20 time to just process more of these subjects that 

21 are important to the community.

22 I also wanted to extend a thank you to 
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1 the stakeholder community who engaged in this 

2 process to provide us with real, genuine, and 

3 insightful comments on our work agenda. For the 

4 fall semester, we'll be continuing our work on 

5 these current agenda items, as well as adding to 

6 the list. Work on the memo that was delivered to 

7 us by the NOP in regards to organics and climate 

8 smart agriculture.

9 So that kind of furthers the work that 

10 Carolyn did last semester, and she'll be the lead 

11 on that. One public comment to mention before we 

12 get started is, debate is healthy and allows us 

13 for opportunities to strengthen a foundational 

14 principle of oversight in the organic system. 

15 With that said, we have approximately 60 minutes 

16 and three topics to cover.

17 So we'll plan on trying to spend about 

18 15 to 20 minutes on each one. And I'll work on 

19 prompting a five-minute warning just to try to keep 

20 us on track for each topic. So with that, Kyla, 

21 I will turn it over to you first.

22 MS. SMITH: Thanks, Amy. So the first 
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1 proposal we have to talk about is the NOP's risk 

2 mitigation table. So the NOP sent the board a memo 

3 on November 18 asking us to review the risk 

4 mitigation table that was developed in response 

5 to the 2020 peer review conducted by ANSI. This 

6 table seeks to document the ways that NOP 

7 safeguards impartiality in the delivery of their 

8 services according to ISO 17011.

9 CACS reviewed the table and did not 

10 identify additional conflicts to be added. The 

11 CACS did ask stakeholders to provide feedback on 

12 it -- on two specific things. The questions are 

13 listed on the screen there. So firstly, to provide 

14 feedback on if there were any conflicts that were 

15 missing, and also also to provide feedback on if 

16 any conflicts were unclear.

17 The public comment received was 

18 appreciative of the opportunity to provide this 

19 feedback. There were some areas that commenters 

20 identified as missing. And a few areas for further 

21 clarification. Most of the commenters stated that 

22 the table did a good job at covering conflicts of 
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1 interest, like, specifically related to, you know, 

2 personnel and decision making.

3 However, they identified that the areas 

4 that were missing were more related to other types 

5 of risks related -- or risks of impartiality. So 

6 I think we have a couple of options here, as the 

7 Board. We can -- I don't know that we're going 

8 to have the time in -- to debate all of the areas 

9 that were identified in the public comment, and 

10 parse through them all here today.

11 So we can either vote to move the 

12 proposal forward. And if the proposal would pass, 

13 then we can include a write-up in the cover sheet 

14 that the board recommend that the NOP include the 

15 suggestions that were identified in the public 

16 comment in the risk mitigation table. Or we can 

17 send this back to subcommittee, to further discuss 

18 each of the suggestions made in the public comment, 

19 and, like, sort of pass through them, in order to 

20 make a determination on whether or not we think 

21 that they should be included. And then come back 

22 with that more comprehensive proposal in the fall. 
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1 So let's talk about those options.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Who wants -- okay, 

3 Brian, please go ahead.

4 MR. CALDWELL: I'm pretty strongly in 

5 favor on sending this back to the committee. The 

6 way I see it, the table just does actually not 

7 include all the potential conflicts of interest. 

8 And so I think it's kind of directly against --

9 even if we put a whole bunch of caveats into the 

10 cover letter, it would actually sort of make the 

11 actual decision false. So I would like it to go 

12 back, and I think there's plenty more to talk about 

13 here.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Other thoughts? 

15 Amy, please go ahead.

16 MS. BRUCH: Yeah. Kyla, I appreciate 

17 your work on this. I think, you know, as is it 

18 does communicate needed information. However, I 

19 think part of the comments from the stakeholder 

20 community in expanding the scope, I think that 

21 there is additional work that could be warranted 

22 on this. So I would echo Brian to take it back 
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1 to subcommittee and work on a little bit more 

2 expansive approach on this really important table.

3 And then I really took note and Jenny 

4 also mentioned this in her remarks about the 

5 community talking about the importance of the 

6 handbook and where some of our best practices land, 

7 and then the regulations. And just -- I don't know 

8 if that'll be in scope in this during the second 

9 round. But I thought just that's an important 

10 thing for the community and our board to digest, 

11 because best practices are voluntary, and the 

12 regulations are really where the enforcement and 

13 legal actions take place. So internalizing that 

14 information potentially in this chart might be 

15 helpful as well.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: Rick?

17 MR. GREENWOOD: I agree with the two 

18 previous commenters. I don't think there's a 

19 great rush to do this. And I think it's better 

20 with a lot of these things that we look at, that 

21 we get it right because we don't get another shot 

22 at it for many years sometimes. So a little extra 
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1 time in the subcommittees, I think, is well worth 

2 it to get it as close to accurate as possible.

3 MS. SMITH: Anybody else have 

4 thoughts? Go ahead, Kim.

5 MS. HUSEMAN: I was actually looking 

6 for the clapping emoji, but we don't have it.

7 MS. BRUCH: I mean, unless anybody else 

8 has any other comments or thoughts, I would go ahead 

9 and make that motion, but don't want to rush that 

10 conversation.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: So we have a motion. 

12 Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Jerry.

13 MR. D'AMORE: Thank you-all. At this 

14 point, there's no other alternative from my point 

15 of view. The slow down here is comments from our 

16 stakeholders, and for me at least, there's been 

17 no debate on those comments. So I would go right 

18 along with the flow and support that motion then.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Okay.

20 MS. SMITH: Brian?

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Would somebody please 

22 just reiterate the motion?
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1 MS. SMITH: We didn't make the motion 

2 yet, so I will make it, but I just didn't want to, 

3 like, cut -- so basically it would just be a motion 

4 to go back to subcommittee. So we're just talking 

5 about the options at the pass. And like -- and 

6 I agree, it felt a little uncomfortable to me to 

7 just put, you know, hey, but it looked in the cover 

8 sheet without us talking through those -- each of 

9 the suggestions, so I -- I'm in agreeance with that. 

10 Go ahead, Brian.

11 MR. CALDWELL: Yeah, I just wanted to 

12 say that I really appreciate the committee going 

13 through this. This is really tough -- tricky 

14 stuff. And I think it's a great example of how 

15 the organic community can really -- can really 

16 expand our reach and help us out. So I just want 

17 to put those things out there, and thanks all for 

18 work on a difficult topic.

19 MS. SMITH: Yes. I would 100 percent 

20 second that. I am not an expert in the world of 

21 ISO, and so I'm really grateful to the stakeholders 

22 who are more knowledgeable on that area, and can 
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1 provide us some really instructive and valuable 

2 feedback. Okay. I would make the motion to send 

3 the risk mitigation table back -- proposal back 

4 to subcommittee.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. We have 

6 a motion. Do we --

7 MS. BRUCH: I second it.

8 MS. SMITH: Okay.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: So our first vote 

10 back to subcommittee. And we'll just be starting 

11 going alphabetically. We move forward one person 

12 each time we take a vote. So we have a motion on 

13 the floor to go back to subcommittee, motion by 

14 Kyla seconded by Amy. So Amy, you're the first 

15 vote.

16 MS. BRUCH: Yes.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Brian?

18 MR. CALDWELL: Yes.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Jerry?

20 MR. D'AMORE: Yes. Thank you.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Carolyn?

22 DR. DIMITRI: Yes.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: Rick?

2 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Liz?

4 MS. GRAZNAK: Yes.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kim?

6 MS. HUSEMAN: Yes.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Mindy?

8 MS. JEFFERY: Yes.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Allison?

10 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Dilip?

12 DR. NANDWANI: Yes.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Logan?

14 MS. PETREY: Yes.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Kyla?

16 MS. SMITH: Yes.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Wood?

18 MR. TURNER: Yes.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Javier?

20 MR. ZAMORA: Yes.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: And the the the board 

22 chair votes yes. So unanimously, we are sending 
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1 it back to subcommittee. Is that the right tally 

2 you got? I should always check with you, Kyla, 

3 15 and all?

4 MS. SMITH: 15 -- 15 yeses, there were 

5 no -- zero abstentions, refusals.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Fantastic..

7 MS. ARSENAULT: Okay. Thank you, 

8 Kyla. I appreciate that. We'll move on to our 

9 next agenda item, and that's by Jerry.

10 MR. D'AMORE: And I am unmuted, and 

11 thank you for the introduction. How about the 

12 volume? Are we all right here?

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Sounding good.

14 MR. D'AMORE: Okay. So Human Capital 

15 Management, supporting the work of the NOSB. Then 

16 you referred to a document titled as NOSB technical 

17 support initiative, but they are one and the same 

18 initiative. The notion that the work load carried 

19 by the NOSB board members can be daunting, has been 

20 around for a long time. And this discussion 

21 document has its origins in the fall 2020 

22 discussion document titled human capital strategy 
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1 for organic inspectors and reviewers.

2 That's where it all started, under the 

3 larger caption of human capital. The board 

4 meeting of last spring, one year ago, had a 

5 discussion document, again under the heading of 

6 human capital with a specific extension of that 

7 saying supporting the work of the NOSB. So the 

8 document contained in the spring 2020 binder 

9 reflects the CACS's desire to get feedback 

10 concerning NOSB technical support, specifically. 

11 And I'm going to spend the rest of my time talking 

12 about the comments, because I find them to be 

13 extremely good and extremely revealing.

14 So there were 19 -- excuse me, 17 total 

15 commenters responding to the 2020 spring 

16 discussion document. About a third were oral and 

17 two-thirds were written. And most of these 

18 stakeholders did respond to all four questions.

19 And this one I got underlined, all of the 

20 stakeholders were in favor of some form of support 

21 for the NOSB.

22 So I'll review the questions and 
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1 answers. What are the advantages or disadvantages 

2 of having support come from within the government 

3 or from a non-profit or university? First answer, 

4 no to any US government support, as it would 

5 threaten the NOSO -- the NOSB's autonomy. The 

6 second one was no to USDA support. And that's 

7 quite a distinction, as it does threaten NOSB 

8 autonomy can -- according to this commenter.

9 Yes to inside support, but it should 

10 be limited to career scientists within the USDA, 

11 EPA, and FDA, who themselves could work with land 

12 grant universities. The public at large should 

13 be part of a support team through the use of the 

14 open docket. Support should come from within the 

15 USDA, as there is too much knowledge to be ignored. 

16 Next, is expand your thinking to include the 

17 organic community. And then the last one, the last 

18 answer, regardless of where the technical support 

19 comes from, the NOP should be responsible for all 

20 contracting activity.

21 The next question, what NOSB tasks, if 

22 any, are critical to keep completely independent 
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1 of the support team? The support team should not 

2 deliberate or decide an issue. They should not 

3 write final proposals. They should not be voting 

4 or arguing for or against anything. They should 

5 not draft recommendations, discussion documents, 

6 or other Board documents. They cannot be the 

7 primary author or -- of a subcommittee document.

8 They cannot initiate poles of 

9 stakeholder groups. They cannot communicate on 

10 behalf of the NOSB or any subcommittee. The 

11 support should -- support group should vet and 

12 review materials and documents for regulatory 

13 accuracy. I'm going to ask you to remember that 

14 term, regulatory accuracy. We'll get to that in 

15 a moment.

16 Number 3: should the support team be 

17 privy to all subcommittee meetings and 

18 discussions? There's four people or four groups 

19 answered that, and they all basically said, yes, 

20 when it pert -- when they're discussing things that 

21 pertain to where you're being active. So I won't 

22 read all four of the answers.
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1 The fourth question, what should be the 

2 scope of the NOP's relationship with the 

3 contemplated support group, i.e. should they be 

4 able to task the group directly? First answer, 

5 the NOP should not be able to task the support group 

6 directly. The next answer was no, period. The 

7 next, the NOP should administer the program by 

8 setting up contracts and making payments, et 

9 cetera. But the individual NOSB members should 

10 create the work plan. Direction of the technical 

11 support team should only come from the NOSB.

12 So those were the answers to the 

13 questions, but they're not where I found the most 

14 interest. They were good. But there are some 

15 random ones that did not address questions, and 

16 there's only five of those. And I'm going to read 

17 them to you. Create more time for critical 

18 thinking and reflection by going through this 

19 process. Use the endeavor to broaden the pool for 

20 a more diverse NOSB membership.

21 Make more and better use of your 

22 technical advisory panels. This initiative must 
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1 equip the NOSB to provide NOP with clearer, more 

2 legally sound and actionable recommendations. 

3 You might find backlogs disappearing. This is a 

4 two-way street, managing the NOSB is a huge task 

5 for the NOP. And my last one is just one sentence 

6 from a former board member that says, this 

7 initiative is long overdue, and if well done, could 

8 greatly enhance the work of the NOSB. Thank you 

9 for your time.

10 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Jerry, for your 

11 overview on that. I will open it up to any 

12 questions.

13 MR. D'AMORE: I guess pretty thorough.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Looks like Carolyn 

15 has a question.

16 DR. DIMITRI: It's not so much a 

17 question as a comment. I mean, I wonder -- I try 

18 to think of, like, appearances of impropriety or 

19 conflict. And I think it would be very hard to 

20 have someone working for USDA and not at least 

21 giving the appearance of a conflict.

22 MR. D'AMORE: Yeah. I think conflict 
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1 of interest is probably the number one inhibiting 

2 discussion item. And I guess my response is --

3 not to be cavalier, but my response is: I think 

4 on this one that the juice is worth the squeeze,

5 and we got to find a way to do it. That's the way 

6 I would answer that.

7 And being totally transparent, I think 

8 we could manage that. But I was given this in 

9 February, thinking what the heck is it? And I've 

10 fallen in love with the notion, so I can't -- you've 

11 got to discredit me -- or discount, excuse me.

12 DR. DIMITRI: Well, I guess I have 

13 another thought, too. And, you know, I guess maybe 

14 because I'm in my position at the University, I 

15 can actually hire a student to do, I think, a lot 

16 of these activities that we're talking about having 

17 available to other people. So in a way, I mean, 

18 I think what -- I like having a person who is just, 

19 like, my person and I ask her, hey, can you do this? 

20 And it's, like, very defined and very tight.

21 And so I just wonder if there is another 

22 way to do this without having to go through USDA, 
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1 because I do think about all of the medical conflict 

2 of interest and industry conflict of interest. 

3 And I think the research shows again and again that 

4 people think that they are never biased, but 

5 actually they are, because we just are unable to 

6 accurately assess how influenced we are by things 

7 external to us. And then I'm going to stop talking 

8 now, because I know I'm lucky.

9 MR. D'AMORE: Thank you for saying 

10 that. Yes, you are.

11 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Carolyn. 

12 Allison, go ahead. I see your hand up.

13 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you. I had kind 

14 of a similar thought to Carolyn, and I appreciate 

15 that I'm quite green coming into this late in the 

16 process. So, hopefully this will makes sense, so 

17 I haven't missed something major. But it seems 

18 to me that members of the board will have different 

19 needs and could benefit from different types of 

20 support, given our broad range of backgrounds, and 

21 expertise, and work lives.

22 And I -- I'm especially interested in 
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1 finding ways to improve representation of 

2 different perspectives on the board, and diversity 

3 in the organic sector. So one thing I didn't hear 

4 here was maybe assistance in hearing a broader 

5 range of perspectives or from stakeholders who we 

6 might not interact with directly -- sort of a 

7 different type of technical expertise that I wonder 

8 if there's a way to encompass that here as well. 

9 Assistance with diversity, equity, and inclusion 

10 issues and ensuring that we have those types of 

11 resources at our fingertips.

12 MR. D'AMORE: Yeah. Allison, 

13 actually, I meant to capture that. And then if 

14 this doesn't do it for you, I'll do a better job. 

15 Use this endeavor to broaden the pool for a more 

16 diverse NOSB membership base. So I -- and you 

17 know, everything that we're talking about is part 

18 of what is embedded in this proposal. And to the 

19 points that you both -- well, particularly you 

20 Allison, just made about well, excuse me, it was 

21 also Carolyn.

22 Some of us have resources, some of us 
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1 don't. Some of us have innate expertise, some of 

2 us don't. So the question really there is: How 

3 do we parcel out the resources that we might get 

4 to fit the needs of our entire group. And, you 

5 know, in subcommittee we were kicking around the 

6 notion, well, maybe this should be mostly a chairs 

7 bucket of resources, that could be then parceled 

8 out amongst the subcommittee.

9 There are 100 different answers. And 

10 I actually thank you, Allison, because if it wasn't 

11 strong enough emphasized that this is in my mind 

12 a significant potential road towards inclusion, 

13 more than anything that I've seen come across in 

14 my going on three years now, so thank you for the 

15 comment.

16 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Allison. Rick, 

17 is your hand up?

18 MR. GREENWOOD: Yeah. Thanks. I 

19 guess a lot of it depends in this term, conflict 

20 of interest on what we expect these people to do. 

21 I mean, for some of the work that we do, it's highly 

22 technical. And I think that technical expertise 
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1 sometimes comes from people that work in industry. 

2 And so very different than, I think -- because 

3 I can get graduate students too, but usually they 

4 don't have the expertise to do some of this work.

5 They can do more stat work, or you can 

6 have them get literature reviews and things like 

7 that. But for some of the work that would be in 

8 a sense, like a TR, you really need people that 

9 have been in the industry that know the impacts, 

10 or they have been growers. And all of those 

11 people, I think, come with a bias. And I think 

12 if you recognize NOSB membership, we come with a 

13 bias. That's part of who we are, we represent some 

14 of these groups.

15 So it really is a tough call, and I know 

16 I've seen Jerry struggle with it, but it's a tough 

17 one to answer. And I think there is concern, 

18 though, that if we go down this path, which I think 

19 we really need, our stakeholders are going to be 

20 very concerned about who we get to help on this.

21 MR. D'AMORE: Okay. I guess I read 

22 fast. And this is not to negate what you just said, 
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1 Rick, because I agree with every bit of it. But 

2 in my going on to three years, I've never been 

3 handed something where there was a universal 

4 stakeholder response of, get it done. Trying to 

5 put a -- you say, hey. They all have their 

6 different ways of getting towards a solution, but 

7 not one person stood up and said, I think it's a 

8 bad idea.

9 MS. BRUCH: Yeah, great point. Thank 

10 you, Rick, for your comment. And I'm going to just 

11 indicate a five-minute warning. So Kyla, is your 

12 hand up?

13 MS. SMITH: Thanks. I think my 

14 comments are similar to Rick's in that, you know, 

15 I feel like when we originally started talking 

16 about this, was in the wider conversation of human 

17 capital. And there was, like, the RFP that got 

18 put out. And there was no proposal submitted for 

19 this topic within that wider context.

20 So then I feel like we, you know, we 

21 were trying to think about, like, other options 

22 because, you know, it was discussed about, like, 
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1 you know who, what non-profit, or a university, 

2 or non-government entity could actually do what 

3 we were asking them to do. So it didn't seem like 

4 that was, like, a viable pass, right?

5 And now there's seemingly some concerns 

6 about oh, well, if it's housed within USDA, there's 

7 conflict of interest concerns or whatever. And 

8 so I guess I'm just struggling a little bit to --

9 it doesn't sound like there's, like, a shining, 

10 like, blinking, like, this is the best thing. This 

11 is what we ought to do. And so we're just going 

12 to have to pick what we feel like is a viable option 

13 and, like, try to put some guardrails around it, 

14 I guess, because it doesn't seem like there's, 

15 like, I don't know.

16 Yeah. The bright shining star of, 

17 like, this is how we should head. It seems like 

18 there's things we need to work out and consider 

19 no matter which path we take.

20 MR. D'AMORE: I entirely agree with 

21 that. For me the blinking light was the -- an oral 

22 commenter who actually got to the point of saying 
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1 that, gosh, he thinks their organization would be 

2 willing to contribute towards anything that led 

3 to, at that point, diversity. But there's no doubt 

4 that this initiative is going to be fraught with 

5 the necessity to be squeaky clean and transparent.

6 There's just no -- and how we go about 

7 it. So I'm at a loss right now just in terms of 

8 where do we go from here? Do we just -- can we 

9 say, hey, we'll talk about this further? Gosh, 

10 and gee wiz, thank you for presenting that, but 

11 it's too risky, where -- what's the next step?

12 MS. BRUCH: Yeah. I think, Jerry, 

13 that's a good --

14 MR. D'AMORE: I'm sorry. That's a 

15 procedural question.

16 MS. BRUCH: Sure, no, that's a good 

17 question. I think you made mention that -- and 

18 I'm jumping in here, sorry -- that the community 

19 as a whole is in favor of this. So the what, you 

20 know, we have almost 100 percent in favor of doing 

21 this. The how, I think, is what we have to focus 

22 on, kind of the next round of this for sure. 
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1 Javier, and then I see Nate.

2 MR. ZAMORA: Yeah. It's not an easy 

3 fix, but it can be somehow tailored to the need 

4 of someone like me. I'll tell you why. Because 

5 I have the knowledge for growing things. I could 

6 probably communicate myself okay. But when it 

7 comes to the actual technical clerical knowledge, 

8 it's really, really hard. Something needs to be 

9 done within the NOSB, not the NOP or the USDA, 

10 because that would be a very big conflict of 

11 interest.

12 Maybe I could go to someone like ALBA, 

13 or another non-profit. If I go to a non-profit 

14 that has, you know, different ways of making money 

15 and actually handle a lot of money, there will be 

16 bias. Now, if nothing is done and try to fix this 

17 or have the help that someone like me -- well, 

18 someone probably that will probably suffer even 

19 more than me. To deliver on what's needed, or what 

20 this Board is asking us to do, it's going to be 

21 difficult.

22 You will probably not have a good solid 
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1 representation. Or what a mid-size, small family 

2 farm or farmer is, especially the Latino or some 

3 other than Caucasian. Now, I'm afraid that if the 

4 person that it's coming on behind me doesn't get 

5 the help, it's going to be really hard for the NOSB 

6 to have representation that -- it's needed, because 

7 you don't have to go far. Just look around and 

8 see who the farming community is.

9 So I'm coming on at a really good time 

10 to perhaps you use me as a guinea pig, if you will, 

11 to really make something out of this. I think it's 

12 100 percent necessary. Because the very first --

13 I can personally tell you that the very first two 

14 or three meetings that we had, even right now, I'm 

15 having a really hard issue navigating the Dropbox 

16 and is this PR needed?

17 I'm really even afraid to really -- I 

18 really commend Liz because she presented 

19 something. And I know I am being asked to present 

20 something really simple, but I still -- I'm not 

21 able to get a good grip of what is it -- how am 

22 I going to present this? Now, does that mean I'm 
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1 not able to say or read something? No. It's just 

2 navigating the steps that I needed to make sure 

3 that I feel at least a former point that I'm 

4 representing and I'm doing that constituents that 

5 had asked me to be part of these board.

6 So I think there's quite a bit of work 

7 that needs to be done. But I really, you know, 

8 Kayla and Jerry, I think you -- you're on the right 

9 track. We just have to see what that reality is 

10 in the farming community and see because I believe 

11 the farmer's seed perhaps might be the one or might 

12 be the ones that are probably going to struggle 

13 more with that. Again, especially the minority 

14 part, and I'm here to make it work.

15 MR. D'AMORE: Well said.

16 MR. ZAMORA: I'm sure we'll make it 

17 work.

18 MS. BRUCH: Yeah. Thank you, Javier, 

19 for your genuine comment there, really appreciate 

20 your candor. Liz, we'll wrap up with you for 

21 questions or comments.

22 MS. GRAZNAK: Hopefully, yes. Okay. 
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1 I had a really long conversation with a fellow 

2 organic farmer right after the end of the listening 

3 session last week about the exact same topic. And 

4 I heard from the listening session the comments 

5 that people really think that we need to have much 

6 better representation on the board of a more 

7 diverse collection of the organic community.

8 And, you know, more ethically diverse, 

9 more financially diverse, just diverse in general. 

10 And I came away from hearing that interest in 

11 wanting to address that topic. Thinking to 

12 myself, there's no way they will ever get any people 

13 from those communities to serve on this board 

14 because it will not -- it's just not possible. 

15 It will -- literally isn't possible.

16 I mean, I am having a very hard time 

17 giving the time that is required for the board to 

18 do my due diligence as a board member, because I 

19 am that very small certified organic farm that 

20 literally depends every single day on me being out 

21 in the field, working with my crew, when the carrots 

22 need to be, you know, hand weeded.
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1 And I'm still, you know, I have 

2 employees, thankfully. But any -- I just know that 

3 literally there is a huge disconnect I think, 

4 between what the board says they want, and actually 

5 being able to achieve it because there's no way 

6 we will be able to represent those communities 

7 unless something changes.

8 MS. BRUCH: Thank you so much for being 

9 on the board, and sharing that perspective. I 

10 think we have a lot to review internally in our 

11 subcommittee, and this is definitely something 

12 that's a need. Jerry, do you have any final 

13 remarks? I wish we had more time as a whole board 

14 in this format to work through some of this. But 

15 I apologize, with our time schedule. But Jerry, 

16 just wanted to turn it over to you for any final 

17 remarks.

18 MR. D'AMORE: Oh, I am -- I'm in awe 

19 of the -- of responses. And the only thing I would 

20 say to you as Chair, is find more time for us to 

21 deliberate inside subcommittee. We got to -- we 

22 got a hell of a lot to talk about.
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1 MS. BRUCH: Yes. Amen. That's for 

2 sure. These are really important topics that this 

3 subcommittee takes on, and the comments from the 

4 stakeholders are more important now than ever in 

5 this forum for our board to deliberate on. This 

6 is really important. Okay, well, moving on to our 

7 third agenda item.

8 This one is oversight to deter fraud, 

9 monetization, and supply chain verification. And 

10 this is actually a collaborative effort between 

11 myself and Nate. So I'll kind of kick off this 

12 and then turn it over to Nate to discuss the second 

13 part. And then we'll open it up to questions here. 

14 Try to go pretty quick over this overview so we 

15 have lots of time to hear board comments.

16 Really at the at the fall meeting, 

17 commenters indicated some steps that the community 

18 and the USDA could take in short order to enhance 

19 traceability efforts. And today we highlight two. 

20 The first one is reporting acres per crop type. 

21 And this in general could lead to improved 

22 granular or aggregated mass balances, and can be 
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1 a real tool for inspectors. The wide variety of 

2 stakeholder feedback, including certifiers, 

3 farmers in the plaines community, in relationship 

4 to this particular item, generally seemed very 

5 supportive or in favor of accomplishing this one 

6 way or another.

7 Currently, there are a few certifying 

8 bodies that are capturing this information and 

9 placing on organic certificates or addendums right 

10 now, but there are gaps in this information since 

11 the practice isn't mandatory. In looking at the 

12 ACA, they have a document that is entitled, best 

13 practices for verifying traceability in the supply 

14 chain. And it states that the solution to 

15 transparency is that all certifiers submit this 

16 type of data, organic acreage reports to the NOP 

17 for inclusion in the organic integrity database.

18 This would enable a clearer picture of 

19 whether or not the organic land base supports 

20 production claims on small and large scales and 

21 allow for calculation of a mass balance across the 

22 supply chain. There were a few concerns of just 
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1 how do we go about articulating this information 

2 for small acreage, multiple crops, just 

3 clarification on, just how we're going to 

4 categorize this information on certificates.

5 But there are currently some best 

6 practices in play that could help alleviate the 

7 concerns and other commenters were quick to point 

8 out about including livestock, these trays and 

9 mushrooms, et cetera. So one last comment before 

10 I turn it over to Nate, would be that reporting 

11 production area information certified by crop, 

12 livestock, and location on at least an annual basis 

13 to the organic integrity database is one of the 

14 most impactful single actions that can be taken 

15 to increase the integrity in the global organic 

16 control system.

17 And they also went on to say that they 

18 expected this information just to be at an 

19 aggregated level in the OID, just to help protect 

20 confidential business information. So I will pass 

21 it over to Nate for any additional information on

22 acres reporting, or the next item up for 
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1 discussion, which is universal bill of lading.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Amy, and 

3 thank you for your work on this. I think when we 

4 look at the ability to consistently identify red 

5 flags in the supply chain for organics, we have 

6 one chance every year to have an inspection. I 

7 think it's pretty well known that the chance of 

8 catching fraud during the inspection is fairly low, 

9 just because you're seeing such a snapshot.

10 And so as we heard from many commenters, 

11 folks rely basically on crowd sourcing tips. Is 

12 there fraud? Does anyone know of fraud? Where 

13 is it? And those tips are then sent up the chain 

14 to the certifier, and they figure out how to execute 

15 an enforcement action. As an inspector, 

16 oftentimes, we're trying to figure out, what is 

17 a complete story?

18 When we are writing an inspection 

19 report, we're trying to give the reviewer and the 

20 certifier a narrative of a farm where they don't 

21 even need to have been there because we're writing 

22 such -- in such good detail and giving them so much 
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1 information that they can make a really solid 

2 certification determination. In doing that, 

3 we're oftentimes only able to give really a very 

4 succinct snapshot that doesn't have the ability 

5 to test this system.

6 There's not a whole lot of 

7 bi-directional information being looked at. 

8 There's not a lot of quick tools to just check, 

9 does all of this add up? And so when we're looking 

10 at our audits, and we're trying to see, is the 

11 operation we're inspecting telling us the truth 

12 that they really did get all of their corn, say, 

13 from one operation. And we have no way to really 

14 go a step beyond that and say, does that operation 

15 from whom they bought it even grow enough corn to 

16 meet the needs of that farm or stack up against 

17 the receipts that that operation is providing us 

18 at inspection?

19 So what acreage on certificates I think 

20 would really do is just enable inspectors to be 

21 better data gatherers about potential red flags, 

22 where we see a possibility of an issue of concern 
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1 where we could say, in either direction, anyone 

2 who's done business with this operation, we could 

3 see is there something of concern here? And that 

4 ability to crowd source more red flags, I think, 

5 is what we're seeing as the only real way that fraud 

6 gets busted.

7 The only way that we see real 

8 enforcement action is when we have more and more 

9 pieces of data about potentially fraudulent 

10 actions. Because several certifiers, three from 

11 whom we heard, are already doing this. And many 

12 of their farmers are telling us on last week's calls 

13 that it's not an -- a concern for them. They're 

14 fine putting their information on there. And they 

15 see it as a way to contribute to the greater 

16 transparency of the system.

17 I think that that's points for your 

18 proposal, Amy, or discussion document -- for this 

19 idea that we could have acres on certificates, by 

20 crop. Addressing those small holder concerns, 

21 like you said, Amy, that if you have a lot of mixed 

22 vegetables, or you have a very small amount of land 
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1 that you're certifying, and needs to go down to, 

2 say, square feet or what have you, the certifiers 

3 who are already putting acres by crop on the 

4 certificate, have already addressed the same 

5 concerns.

6 So I think we have some fairly good 

7 models with several years behind them that we can 

8 look to. I just want to throw out that we 

9 definitely heard everyone's concern that SOE is 

10 nigh, hopefully, so let's not get the cart too in 

11 front of the horse. But I think that this question 

12 is really something that is such a very simple way 

13 to increase transparency and increase the utility 

14 of that inspection. Being able to look at 

15 certificates and try to check if there's any 

16 evidence of fraud in that inspection.

17 MS. BRUCH: Thanks, Nate. Brian, I 

18 see your hand up.

19 MR. CALDWELL: Yeah. Thanks. This 

20 is a really important issue, and I really am totally 

21 in favor of the idea of including crop acreage, 

22 or acreage by crop on the certificates. I think 
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1 it will be really easy to not have problems with 

2 really small producers. I think mixed vegetables 

3 is a totally fine category for maybe under, say, 

4 five acres, something like that.

5 And if anything is -- if any one crop 

6 is maybe more than an acre, it could be specified 

7 and I don't think that's a really difficult, you 

8 know, record keeping problem at all. In fact, you 

9 know, one of the big issues with certification is 

10 that it really helps you keep track of the records 

11 that you need. And you know, pretty much 

12 everybody, feels that way, at least the small scale 

13 producers in particular.

14 So I'm totally in favor of that. I 

15 think that in terms of fraud, we really need to 

16 focus on targeting measures of detecting fraud on 

17 the potential areas where fraud is likely to occur. 

18 And so I'm thinking that any farm less -- with 

19 less than $100,000 of gross sales should not be 

20 a prime target for any kind of special fraud 

21 detection, you know, record keeping or inspections 

22 or whatever.
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1 Because I really don't think that 

2 they're the problem. And certainly if there is 

3 some fraud in a smaller farm like that, it's not 

4 going to distort the market. But we're talking 

5 about fraud that really does distort the market 

6 and can really hurt legitimate producers. So 

7 anyways, those are my thoughts on it and I'd love 

8 to hear what everybody else thinks.

9 MS. BRUCH: Thanks, Brian, for that 

10 perspective. Kyla?

11 MS. SMITH: Yeah, thanks. I feel like 

12 sometimes I -- when I talk about these things, I 

13 feel a little bit, like, complainy or whiny because 

14 ultimately, like, we will figure it out. But I 

15 will say that, you know, what did Jenny say, what 

16 -- there's 76 certifiers right now. There's 

17 probably 76 different ways that certificates are 

18 being issued, and that taxonomies are being used, 

19 and the look of the certificate and all that. And 

20 so I know that, like, maybe some of that's going 

21 to get solved with SOB.

22 When the OID came out, you know, PCO 
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1 used to put mixed vegetables on the certificate. 

2 And once that taxonomy came out, and because of 

3 suppliers requesting more detail, like, they were, 

4 like, mixed vegetables isn't cutting it anymore, 

5 until we were having to produce, like, all these 

6 extra letters, which was, like -- and it just 

7 injured an additional administrative burden to 

8 produce that. So we started putting that right 

9 on our certificate.

10 And so for us to go back -- have to go 

11 back to mixed vegetables for, like, to solve this 

12 thing is just, I don't know, from -- it seems like 

13 a bit of a step backwards. Or we would have to 

14 have, like, one certificate in this one case, 

15 because we have to pull data and specify things 

16 in a certain way out of our database. But a 

17 different certificate in this other case.

18 So, like, when I'm thinking about, you 

19 know, acreage and how it's going to get recorded, 

20 that's how my brain is working, is like how am I 

21 actually going to do this with the data that's going 

22 into the database. And how am I going to have to 
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1 re-specify the certificate and all these different 

2 cases? And we haven't, as other certifier -- or 

3 some certifiers had indicated that don't put that 

4 on.

5 And we haven't either because we had 

6 viewed it as confidential business information. 

7 And so -- unless it wasn't, you know, mandatory, 

8 I wouldn't feel comfortable without engaging with 

9 our certified operations to gauge whether or not 

10 they would want that on a public facing document. 

11 So I think that's all I'm going to say right now.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: So if I hear you 

13 right, Kyla, if it was mandatory and all certifiers 

14 were requested to do it, it would make an even 

15 enough playing field that'd be worthy of the 

16 investment?

17 MS. SMITH: Yeah.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

19 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Kyla. Let's go 

20 to Javier next and then Logan.

21 MR. ZAMORA: Trying figure out a way 

22 -- whether someone is buying and re-selling them 
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1 -- they're being dishonest about their operation. 

2 It's not that difficult, but it's really touchy. 

3 My certifier the last couple of years, they'd been 

4 asking about the mass content, how much we're 

5 producing, on how many acres, to the point now where 

6 everything -- every time we plan something, we need 

7 to get into their website and enter whatever we're 

8 planting and how much acreage.

9 It feels personal, but I think 

10 something needs to be done, because there are 

11 certain things happening out there that actually 

12 affect the smaller grower. But you know that two, 

13 five acre grower that is very specialty crop, and 

14 they plant, you know, leafy greens three times on 

15 the same area, four times during the year, radishes 

16 or cilantro whatever it is.

17 But there is -- there's ways, I mean, 

18 I think when you grow like this, it's because you 

19 have a CSA, or you sell at a farmers market. So 

20 you have a constant usage of the land, and you're 

21 planting constantly. I mean, the CBC had 

22 commissioners, the issue for someone to sell it 
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1 at the farmers market. It tells you per pound, 

2 or linear feed, or boxes, all those things there.

3 And it tells you how many certificates 

4 do you have to be able to sell the farmers market, 

5 so there's ways to do things if you really want 

6 to catch someone. But I think the problem here 

7 is are you invading the grower's privacy. I think 

8 it should probably be a little larger scale. In 

9 our area, you're just starting to be large when 

10 you have 30, 40, 50 acres.

11 Maybe in, you know, somewhere else in 

12 the United States, 50 acres is probably your back 

13 yard. But, you know, for me, I mean, I'm a little 

14 over 100 acres. I'm actually a mid-sized grower 

15 now. But small here is just like 10 or under. 

16 So I think it has to be by size of acreage probably. 

17 Something that really complicates things is how 

18 diversified a specialty crop grower is. We have 

19 some people that grow 50, 60 different things. 

20 We have growers that we might just grow 20, 25.

21 So the tools are the -- out there. It's 

22 just how deep and how personal do we need to get? 
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1 That's the question, without really feel like 

2 you're invading people's privacy and farmers' 

3 privacy. Again, if you're going to mandate 

4 things, some of us might not like it, some more, 

5 there's might be okay with it. But it just depends 

6 how much more work you're going to create for the 

7 producer, or whether the producer has the 

8 personality to keep track of all these things.

9 But everything is there. I mean, we 

10 report them to insurance, how many boxes of 

11 strawberries we've produced. We report to the 

12 insurance company. We report to the hired 

13 commissioners, we get the USDA census that we fill 

14 every year, and all these things. So it just 

15 depends which route we need to go.

16 MS. BRUCH: Yeah. Thank you, Javier.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yeah, one thing in 

18 there.

19 MS. BRUCH: Yep, go ahead, Nate.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: I really appreciate 

21 that insight, Javier. I think that's something 

22 that gives us some fuel to this discussion, is that 
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1 this is already existing data. How do we make the 

2 data useful for catching fraud? So really this 

3 is nothing on the producer. It would change 

4 nothing for the producer. It would be work for 

5 the certifier. And that's why I want to hear.

6 I see Kyla and I so value everything 

7 she has to say about the subject because we're all 

8 in this together. And we don't mean to put -- it's 

9 not about trying to make more work. It's trying 

10 to leverage data and reporting that we already do 

11 to be more effective. So, sorry.

12 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Nate, for saying 

13 that. I was going to say something similar that, 

14 that's for sure. I know we're running up against 

15 our time commitment, at least for this section.

16 MS. PETREY: Yeah, Amy, don't worry 

17 about it, Javier wrapped mine up with the USDA and 

18 insurance requirements the farmers already have 

19 to do. So he got into. So I'm covered. Thank 

20 you.

21 MS. BRUCH: Okay. Thank you, Logan. 

22 I really wanted to hear from you, Kim, and then 
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1 Brian again, and then we can make our game plan, 

2 Nate, if we have additional time here.

3 MS. HUSEMAN: So I'll echo that from 

4 the perspective of FSA acreage data. And then I 

5 actually was looking into that as we were talking. 

6 But the challenge is to define an umbrella 

7 statement or expectation that encompasses 

8 everything from a linear feet to a section. And 

9 it's very, very difficult to do. So I think that's 

10 where I get hung up in this situation is where I 

11 listened to you, Javier, as a farmer and how he's 

12 designed his plan.

13 And how I grew up farming, where you're 

14 talking mile lines and sections and so forth. And 

15 then try to come up with a very similar statement 

16 that's going to encompass the plot that I grew for 

17 farmers market. That is difficult. And this is 

18 a challenge, and I -- this is a good challenge for 

19 us to have. And -- but the other aspect to it is, 

20 and I asked this during public comment, you are 

21 going -- we are going to get multiple responses 

22 as to where is that line between traceability and 
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1 transparency and confidentiality.

2 And, you know, I just want that to sit 

3 with everybody in -- and, you know, determine what 

4 does that look like as well. So I don't know the 

5 answer to these things, but these are things that 

6 come across to my mind. But I guess it also goes 

7 back in and I'll bring it back full circle to my 

8 initial question -- or a statement around, you 

9 know, there's data within the USDA. Is that 

10 plausible to utilize from a certifier standpoint, 

11 and just lastly, to sit with everyone is, you know, 

12 are all certified operations, or are all certifying 

13 bodies utilizing the same mechanisms, you know, 

14 when looking in this arena. More statements than 

15 questions.

16 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Kim, I really 

17 appreciate your insight. Brian, we'll go with you 

18 and then we'll wrap up this topic, okay?

19 MR. CALDWELL: Yeah. Yeah, really 

20 quick. Just, you know, I thought about, you know, 

21 whether buyers need to know specifically whether 

22 this one farm, you know, grows cilantro or not, 
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1 or something that I think Kyla was referring to. 

2 And of course, you could say mixed vegetables 

3 including, and then you list all your certified 

4 crops. And you're getting an organic premium for 

5 those crops, and it's -- it's not a big burden to 

6 just list them out.

7 And again, the certifier should already 

8 have that information on the field forms of what 

9 crops are being grown, so I don't feel like it's, 

10 you know, an extra burden. And in terms of 

11 confidentiality for the small grower, I mean, I 

12 grew 20 -- or for 20 years I grew five acres of 

13 vegetables. And I really don't think there was 

14 any confidential -- confidentiality issue with 

15 letting anybody know what I was growing on those 

16 five acres.

17 So I don't -- I guess, I don't get what 

18 the problem is there, for a small-scale operation. 

19 So those are my thoughts on that little aspect.

20 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Brian. And 

21 this is a really good topic. I appreciate all the 

22 different viewpoints on this. I think some 
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1 highlights with this conversation was just, one, 

2 to build on the harmonization of data, so this data 

3 already exists. Can we streamline the data 

4 collection to make it relevant for our OSPs? To 

5 not create any extra work for farmers.

6 And then these diverse operations, 

7 meaning the smaller ones that are having a lot of 

8 crops, you know, there are some best practices, 

9 I think, in the queue that some certifiers that 

10 are indicating crops on the certificates are doing. 

11 So I think there's some learnings that can happen 

12 there.

13 And then, you know, in general through 

14 oral comments and written, there was overwhelming 

15 support really for this type of initiative, just 

16 because it's the basis to identify certain regions 

17 just the volume of products that they're exporting 

18 or producing, does it match acres? So we can look 

19 at it on an individual field level, or we could 

20 look at it over a large region area, too.

21 So there's different applications for 

22 just getting this simplified information. So this 
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1 is really great. I wish we could go on and on to 

2 discuss this, but I appreciate everybody's time 

3 today. And probably, Nate, I'm just assuming 

4 we'll kind of table the discussion and work on the 

5 second part in subcommittee, which is the universal 

6 bill of lading. I think there was some good 

7 information we received from stakeholder comments 

8 on that to kind of start deliberating on in our 

9 subcommittee.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yeah. I -- the only 

11 thing I would throw onto that, is it sounds like 

12 farmers -- especially farmers, but a lot of groups, 

13 are celebrating that organic is the most traceable 

14 system we have. There's just some very obvious 

15 sort of black boxes in the supply chain that could 

16 be addressed. And I think continuity of lot code, 

17 especially in durable goods like dry grain, is 

18 something that's being flagged for us as a missing 

19 piece, and something that was not consistently 

20 being carried through.

21 So we love -- and I think this is one 

22 of the reasons I love organic so much -- is that 
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1 it is so traceable. But looking forward, how do 

2 we improve that traceability? I think we heard 

3 a lot of good things and can continue the discussion 

4 about universal bills of lading, or the ideas about 

5 how do you make this traceability even better.

6 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Nate, and I will 

7 turn it back over to you.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Wow, we 

9 are, like, 10 minutes ahead of schedule and feeling 

10 fresh. So thanks everybody for bearing with us 

11 today. This is great. As we look to tomorrow, 

12 we're going to break here, probably top of the hour 

13 is when we're scheduled, but we might even be a 

14 little bit ahead of that. We're going to start 

15 handling tomorrow, and we've got a good heavy lift 

16 on that side.

17 And then after lunch, we're going to 

18 be hearing from the Organic Seed Alliance, as well 

19 as NIFA, with some updates there. Any closing 

20 words, Michelle, before we head out for the day?

21 MS. ARSENAULT: I don't have any. I 

22 think I -- we had some information on the slide 
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1 about tomorrow, but I think you already went over 

2 that. So all right. Thank you, everyone.

3 DR. TUCKER: Wonderful day. Thank you 

4 all. You guys did a beautiful job with some 

5 complex discussions.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes. Thank you, 

7 everyone. Thank you, Jenny. Really appreciate 

8 everyone. All right. Until tomorrow. Take 

9 care.

10 (Whereupon, the hearing in the 

11 above-entitled matter was concluded at 4:51 p.m.)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19
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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

SPRING 2022 MEETING

+ + + + +

WEDNESDAY

APRIL 27, 2022

+ + + + +

The Board met via Videoconference at 

12:00 p.m., Nate Powell-Palm, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT

NATE POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH, Secretary

AMY BRUCH

BRIAN CALDWELL

JERRY D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

ELIZABETH GRAZNAK

RICK GREENWOOD

KIM HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

WOOD TURNER

JAVIER ZAMORA
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NOP STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

DAVID GLASGOW, National Organic Program Associate 

Deputy Administrator

ERIN HEALY, Standards Division Director

ANDREA HOLM, Materials Specialist

DEVON PATTILLO, Standards Acting Assistant 

Director

DR. JENNIFER TUCKER, National Organic Program 

Deputy Administrator; Designated Federal Officer

ALSO PRESENT

KIKI HUBBARD, Director of Advocacy & 

Communications, Organic Seed Alliance

MAT NGOUAJIO, National Science Liaison, Institute 

of Food Production and Sustainability, NIFA, USDA
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CONTENTS

Handling Subcommittee (HS)

Topics:

Proposal: Cetylpyridinium chloride (CPC) -

petitioned ................................... 60

Proposal: Phosphoric acid - amend annotation -

petitioned .................................. 88

2024 Sunset Substances Review:

Bentonite .................................... 15

Magnesium chloride ........................... 17

Nitrogen ..................................... 19

Sodium carbonate ............................. 20

Acidified sodium chlorite .................... 25

Carbon dioxide ............................... 26

Sodium phosphates ............................ 28

Potassium acid tartrate ...................... 30

Casings ...................................... 31

Pectin ....................................... 40

Attapulgite .................................. 51

Diatomaceous earth ........................... 58

National Institute of Food and Agriculture (NIFA)

Update on Organic Research Priorities ....... 148

Organic Seed Alliance (OSA) Update on State of

Organic Seed ................................ 172

Materials Subcommittee

Topics:

Proposal: Excluded Methods Spring 2022 ...... 189

Discussion Document: Tall Oil, distilled -

petitioned .................................. 190

Discussion Document:

Research Priorities 2022 .................... 197
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (12:01 p.m.)

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. I think 

4 we're ready to kick it off. So we're going to start 

5 with handling, but before that, I think it'll be 

6 nice just to do a quick roll call -- hear from 

7 everybody. And if you wouldn't mind -- and please 

8 forgive me, I won't do this all the time, if we 

9 could do a brief ice breaker where when you say 

10 you're here, also just say something that surprised 

11 or delighted you from yesterday's meeting. And 

12 we can kind of get reactions for what we covered 

13 yesterday because it was a lot, a lot of information 

14 flowed. So apologies to the early people who don't 

15 have a lot of time to think about this, but let's 

16 dive in.

17 So getting us started, Amy, if you want 

18 to go first.

19 MS. BRUCH: Sure. Thank you, Nate.

20 Hello, everybody. Amy Bruch here. 

21 And to answer the ice breaker question. Let's see, 

22 one, I guess, that time goes so quickly. That was 
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1 something that was nice to see there. Also, two, 

2 I was just really overly impressed with the amount 

3 of information the NOSB was able to receive from 

4 the program. Jenny's comments and her thorough 

5 review of just how -- the public comments and where 

6 those fit in the priorities that the program had, 

7 was really insightful. I'm glad that we were able 

8 to spend as much time on that issue as we did. 

9 So, thank you.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. Thank 

11 you for that.

12 Brian, please go ahead.

13 MR. CALDWELL: Yes. I'm here, and I'm 

14 always astonished at how articulate everybody is. 

15 And I try to make up for it by stumbling around 

16 a little bit when I talk, but this group is really 

17 quite amazing. So that was my shocker for the day.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: I would echo that. 

19 It's a great group.

20 Jerry, please go ahead.

21 MR. D'AMORE: Good morning. I thought 

22 it was going to be tough being at the beginning 
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1 but it, you know, it's not, because everybody has 

2 already said what you want to say. Anyway, good 

3 morning, Jerry. I agree with you, Brian. 

4 Listening to the whole group, the NOP as well, it 

5 was smooth, it was informative, and it was fun. 

6 So that wasn't a surprise. It was just what 

7 happened. Thank you.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Carolyn, please go 

9 ahead.

10 MS. DIMITRI: Hi. I also really hate 

11 these ice breaker questions.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: I know.

13 MS. DIMITRI: I don't know why. I feel 

14 so much more comfortable when I, like, impose them 

15 on people than when I have to answer them. But 

16 I was delighted to see how people paid attention 

17 for such a long period of time.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: It is a haul. Yes. 

19 Thank you for that.

20 Rick.

21 MR. GREENWOOD: Again, it's going to 

22 be harder as we go along for the other people to 
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1 answer. But I also am always impressed at the 

2 discussions that we have and how thoughtful the 

3 comments are and how respectful all the board 

4 members are to each other, and to the program. 

5 And again, just a great example of this 

6 public-private relationship. I mean, I think it's 

7 wonderful.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Hear, hear.

9 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes.

10 Liz. Oh, still on mute.

11 MS. GRAZNAK: Okay? Got it.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes.

13 MS. GRAZNAK: Yes. Good. Good 

14 morning. Yesterday was my first NOSB meeting. 

15 So the whole thing was really fabulous. But also, 

16 you know, very new for me. And I also have to say 

17 that I am so proud of my team because they ran the 

18 farm without me yesterday. So it was a really --

19 it was a great day all around.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: Fantastic. 

21 Absolutely.

22 Kim, please go ahead.
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1 MS. HUSEMAN: All right. So I am Kim, 

2 and too must go, everything I -- although I agree 

3 with my colleagues, I was delighted to see Liz 

4 present her first Sunset yesterday. Handled it 

5 marvelously. And looking forward to serving on 

6 the the board with you Liz. So, well done on your 

7 first Sunset.

8 MS. GRAZNAK: Thank you.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Hear, hear.

10 MS. HUSEMAN: Thank you.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Mindee, please go 

12 ahead.

13 MS. JEFFERY: Good morning. I'm in 

14 the love fest too. Thanks, everybody, for being 

15 such a great team and being so fun to work with. 

16 And that honestly, like, on all sides, I'm so 

17 grateful to the program and all the work that goes 

18 on in the background. And happy anniversary, 

19 Michelle. Thank you so much for 10 years of 

20 service and 20 years to the certifier. I mean, 

21 just love fest of organic all day.

22 MR. POWELL-PALM: It was fun to see how 
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1 many of those 20 years certifiers there are, and 

2 there still are. I mean, that's really, really 

3 cool.

4 Bumping on. Allison, please go ahead.

5 MS. JOHNSON: Morning. I was 

6 delighted to hear Sean Babington recognize the long 

7 list of things that Organic does best. He talked 

8 about, water quality, erosion, cover cropping, 

9 crop rotation, soil health. It's so good to hear 

10 people higher up within USDA recognizing what we 

11 all know and looking for ways to understand it 

12 better.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. 

14 Absolutely.

15 Dilip, please go ahead.

16 MR. NANDWANI: Good morning. I was 

17 delighted to hear of our guest speakers, as Allison 

18 just mentioned, from NRCS as well as from 

19 climate-smart agriculture. Those two were 

20 fantastic. Very, very good to hear and a lot of 

21 good updates because as a university faculty I'm 

22 writing some grants and that will be very helpful. 
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1 And also I -- this is my first NOSB meeting. That 

2 was first day and it went very well. And I was 

3 really amazed to see how coordinated efforts of 

4 everyone is playing, whether it is from NOP staff, 

5 or from administrators, or from board members, and 

6 as well as from the listeners who passed wonderful 

7 comments. And I was really, really amazed to see 

8 this coordinated effort. Thank you.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

10 Logan, please go ahead.

11 Apologize?

12 MS. SMITH: Logan was going to be 

13 delayed this morning.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: That's right. Yes.

15 MS. JEFFERY: Yes.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: She told us that. 

17 Yes.

18 Kyla, please go ahead.

19 MS. SMITH: Hi, everybody. Well, I 

20 wholeheartedly agree with what everybody has 

21 already said. So I'll pick something new, and I 

22 have two. So first thing, I was delighted by 
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1 Nate's run of show, first meeting as the chair. 

2 I think it went off swimmingly. So all the way 

3 just from keeping us sort of on time, thanks to 

4 Kim, and -- as well as your eloquent response to 

5 Mr. Babington. And also I was so delighted and 

6 impressed by the new members' participation in 

7 their first meeting. So, thanks.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. Thank 

9 you, Kyla.

10 Next up, we have Wood.

11 MR. TURNER: Well, doggone, I was going 

12 to say to Javier, Javier, when you live down here 

13 in the outback where you and I live, and where Kyla 

14 lives you -- you know, you never get a chance to 

15 say anything new. So we have to lean on the chair 

16 to sort of reverse the order sometimes. So -- and 

17 --

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: Cheers.

19 MR. TURNER: -- and just at the last 

20 second Kyla robbed me blind of my ability -- mu 

21 opportunity to say how much I appreciated Allison, 

22 and Liz, and Dilip, and Javier leaning into this 
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1 process yesterday and really kind of finding their 

2 voices on this board. So, that was what excited

3 me the most. So --

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Absolutely.

5 MR. TURNER: -- try that one on, 

6 Javier, and see what you can do.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right, Javier, 

8 go right ahead.

9 MR. ZAMORA: Thanks. Yes. I -- well, 

10 thank you. I guess you guys almost said it all

11 and it gets -- for a beginner, it's gets really 

12 difficult. But I just wanted to say that I -- first 

13 of all, I'm really happy that I was able to stay 

14 in one room for, like, five hours, which is very 

15 unusual for me. My anxiety was started to kick 

16 in towards the end. I had to go out.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: I feel you.

18 MR. ZAMORA: But I'm just really 

19 impressed on the wealth of knowledge that we all 

20 have from different environments and it's -- this 

21 is a very unique board. It is really demanding, 

22 but it's great to see all your experiences and 
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1 expertise coming on one platform and I think I'm 

2 going to learn a lot of from you. So yes, I am 

3 here, and [inaudible].

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

5 everyone. I'll throw mine now, napalm bomb. And 

6 I was delighted by a couple of things. But I think 

7 the thing that struck me most was our discussion 

8 around climate change and how we are actively 

9 pursuing this dialogue to make sure that Organic 

10 is recognized for what a solution it is, and how 

11 we have a really great infrastructure to provide 

12 a market oriented solution to climate change for 

13 farmers, as well as businesses looking to invest 

14 in, I would call social solutions to climate 

15 change. So I'm really excited for further 

16 conversations that we might be able to have with 

17 USDA.

18 And just can't thank Jenny enough for 

19 those updates. I feel like our entire community 

20 was lit up yesterday with excitement about how we 

21 are making progress. And so thank you, Jenny, for 

22 taking so much time to prepare so much information 
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1 for us. Really appreciate that.

2 All right, team, now that we're all 

3 warmed up, shall we jump right into handling? Are 

4 you ready, Kyla?

5 MS. SMITH: I am ready --

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Take it 

7 away. Thank you.

8 MS. SMITH: -- to go, Mr. Chairman.

9 We're going to reverse the order a 

10 little bit in handling. So apologies for that. 

11 But we're -- had some members that had some tech 

12 issues, and so we're sort of switching it up. So 

13 we're going to start with the 2024 Sunset, and 

14 attapulgite and diatomaceous earth are being moved 

15 to the bottom of the Sunset list. And then we'll 

16 circle back around into the proposal for CPC and 

17 then the proposal for phosphoric acid annotation 

18 change. So with that, we're going to be starting 

19 with bentonite, and Wood is the lead.

20 MR. TURNER: Thanks, Kyla.

21 So we have a substance bentonite which 

22 is 605(a) nonsynthetics allowed listing. It's a 
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1 -- historically it's been a pretty straightforward 

2 material. We haven't done a technical report on 

3 it since a TAP was done in 1995. So it's been 

4 fairly straightforward and I think that's largely 

5 been because our comments have been pretty straight 

6 -- pretty, you know, pretty limited over the years.

7 It's a processing aid, not an 

8 ingredient. It has absorptive qualities to make 

9 it useful for taking out impurities in oils, 

10 clarifying beer, fruit juice, and the like. Not 

11 something that is present in the final product. 

12 It's -- some of you are probably familiar with 

13 it in a variety of applications. You know, it's 

14 a clay material that, you know, takes on a 

15 distinctive clayey smell in the presence of liquid 

16 is -- but it is insoluble in water and liquid.

17 The listings. There's a sort of a mix 

18 of listings internationally for allowing the 

19 material. I think in some cases it's just simply 

20 not noticed or not recognized as something of 

21 concern, generally regarded as safe. There were 

22 some comments from the community. And I would say 
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1 largely there was no opposition really to the 

2 relisting of the material. I think the biggest 

3 issue I think we want to think about over the next 

4 several months in preparation for the fall, is sort 

5 of whether the material should be clarified in the 

6 annotation because of some discussion about, sort 

7 of, acid treated versions of the material versus 

8 non-acid treated versions of the material.

9 And I'm still trying to get up to speed 

10 on, sort of, what that really indicates or what 

11 we need to learn about that. But I -- that -- most 

12 of the conversation is typically from -- some sort 

13 of buyers have asked for that -- have asked for 

14 some clarification on that point as we think about 

15 relisting the material. I think that's all I want 

16 to say at the moment. Are there any questions?

17 MS. SMITH: Okay. Are there any 

18 questions for Wood?

19 And then we will move to magnesium 

20 chloride, which is me.

21 Okay. So magnesium chloride is listed 

22 at 205.605 nonagricultural, nonorganic 
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1 substances, not as ingredient in or around 

2 processed products labeled as organic or made as 

3 organic. And there is no annotation. So 

4 magnesium chloride is used as -- mostly as a 

5 coagulant or firming agent in tofu production, and 

6 is also used in dietary supplements, and can also 

7 be used as a color retention agent.

8 We did ask two questions related to this 

9 material on whether or not the use of magnesium 

10 chloride as a color enhancement is consistent with 

11 organic principles; as well as other materials that 

12 appear on the National List with similar -- or same 

13 functions and just how they're comparing, and if 

14 they offer alternatives there -- or if these 

15 alternatives offer the same or similar function.

16 We did get several comments and most 

17 were in favor of relisting. However, there were 

18 several commenters that suggested annotating to 

19 limit the use. So if we are finding that because 

20 this is, you know, mostly used in tofu production, 

21 you know, and in dietary supplements, to specify 

22 that in the annotation. And mostly, that was the 
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1 recommendation, was to limit the use for those two 

2 reasons. And so I might infer that with those 

3 comments, perhaps there is an indication that 

4 stakeholders believe that the use as a color 

5 enhancement is not consistent with organic 

6 principles, although no commenters explicitly 

7 stated that in their comments.

8 And no one really addressed the second 

9 question in regards to other substances, you know, 

10 offering same or similar functionality and 

11 essentiality. So overall in favor, perhaps look 

12 at the annotations. And I would still be curious 

13 to hear more direct answers to these questions in 

14 the fall. So they'll probably, you know, stay and 

15 people have -- could provide answers. It's always 

16 helpful to have more information. Any questions? 

17 I don't see any.

18 Nitrogen is next. That's also me.

19 So nitrogen. We're still at 205.605, 

20 and (a) nonsynthetics allowed, nitrogen, oil-free 

21 grades. This material is used as a -- to reduce 

22 oxidation of product during processing, storage, 
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1 and packaging. It's also used in flash freezing. 

2 And all commenters were in favor of relisting. 

3 This is a pretty slam dunk one. Any questions?

4 Yes, Brian.

5 MR. CALDWELL: Hi Kyla. I'm just 

6 wondering, it says, nitrogen-oil free grades. And 

7 I think of nitrogen as a gas. I'm just wondering 

8 how there could be oil in some grades?

9 MS. SMITH: That's a good question that 

10 I'm probably not going to be able to answer 

11 specifically here without looking back in the TR. 

12 But, Rick, do you know?

13 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. I think I can 

14 answer that.

15 MS. SMITH: Okay.

16 MR. GREENWOOD: Depends on the 

17 production method because sometimes the 

18 compression, how they compress it to turn it into 

19 a gas, can get oil into it. It's very similar if 

20 you're a scuba diver and you need air. You need 

21 to make sure that the compressors don't leak oil. 

22 So there's -- it's cheaper, but oil free grades 
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1 are obviously better for food. And if your 

2 breathing, its also a good thing. So it's really 

3 how it's made.

4 MS. SMITH: Okay. Any other 

5 questions. Okay.

6 Next up is Dilip with sodium carbonate. 

7 Dilip's first Sunset.

8 MR. NANDWANI: Thanks, Kyla.

9 Good morning again. So the sodium 

10 carbonate, it's listed as a nonsynthetics allowed, 

11 205.605. And past NOSB actions, 2015 technical 

12 report, and as well as 2017 Sunset recommendations 

13 available. So subcommittee reviewed -- but the 

14 first, it's use. And sodium carbonate, which is 

15 also referred as washing soda or soda ash, and used 

16 as a raising agent. And it can also be used as 

17 an anti-caking agent -- sorry, caking agent, 

18 acidity regulator, a stabilizer, or as a 

19 neutralizer in food industry.

20 It's manufactured and produced in North 

21 America from naturally deposits of trona ore and 

22 in California, sodium carbonate can be produced 
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1 from using natural brine. So subcommittee 

2 forwarded four questions to stakeholders. First 

3 question, is this material still essential for 

4 organic handling and processing? Second, are 

5 there alternative materials that can replace 

6 sodium carbonate? Third, what are the relative 

7 environmental impacts of trona mining or brine 

8 extraction during production of sodium carbonate? 

9 And the fourth, is sodium carbonate produced from 

10 trona or brine extraction nonsynthetic? So we got 

11 a lot of comments and -- from the stakeholders, 

12 and which are supportive to continue relisting of 

13 sodium carbonate.

14 I found one comment interesting, which 

15 I will mention at the last, but before that, I would 

16 like to say a few comments. One certifier 

17 mentioned, quote, There are no viable organic 

18 alternatives and the material is compatible with 

19 organic principles. End quote. Second 

20 stakeholder provided, Numbers of certified organic 

21 operations use sodium carbonate. Another one 

22 mentioned that, Our options for cleaning of our 
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1 manufacturing facility are limited and thus the 

2 removal of any materials allowed for cleaning can

3 be problematic. Also a commenter mentioned that, 

4 We are not aware of an adequate substitute for this 

5 cleaning agent. If sodium carbonate were to be 

6 delisted. End quote. One comment, which is from 

7 a non-profit organization, which remains neutral 

8 on sodium carbonate and does not take a position 

9 on whether individual substances should be added 

10 or removed from the National List.

11 So the one comment which is 

12 interesting, I'm going to say that. The commenter 

13 or stakeholder mentioned that sodium carbonate is 

14 a caustic and corrosive material and questioned 

15 the listing of sodium carbonate on 205.605(a) 

16 without an annotation. Sodium carbonate may be 

17 produced from mine deposits or by chemical 

18 reaction, and that is a solvay process, they call 

19 it, which is synthetic. So if the NOSB intends 

20 to allow only the nonsynthetic version, it should 

21 annotate the listing produced from mine deposits. 

22 If the NOSB intends to allow synthetic sodium 
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1 carbonate, then it should also be listed on 

2 205.605(b) with the annotation, Produced using 

3 solvay process.

4 The handling subcommittee has not 

5 received a technical review that examines 

6 alternatives. The handling subcommittee should 

7 propose an annotation, clarifying the 

8 classification of sodium carbonate. It should 

9 request that the audit examines alternatives. And 

10 again, lastly, public commenters supported the 

11 continued listing of this material. Thank you. 

12 Any questions?

13 MS. SMITH: Great job, Dilip.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Just want to throw 

15 out a -- great job, Dilip.

16 MR. NANDWANI: Thank you.

17 MS. SMITH: Go ahead, Brian.

18 MR. CALDWELL: Thanks, Dilip. Just 

19 wondering. Is sodium carbonate used essentially 

20 for the same purposes as sodium bicarbonate, which 

21 is baking soda?

22 MR. NANDWANI: There was one comment, 
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1 I think, I read that about sodium carbonate, but 

2 it says sodium bicarbonate. But I don't remember 

3 because that stakeholder put together several of 

4 the materials into one re-listing. So at this 

5 point, I don't have a clear answer to your question. 

6 But several of the stakeholders, they have 

7 reviewed, actually, several handling materials and 

8 they were kind of going through with that 

9 re-listing, including the sodium carbonate where 

10 it says bicarbonate. I can get back to you once 

11 I review my TR back, and I can get back to you.

12 MR. CALDWELL: Great, thanks. It 

13 sound -- it seems to me just off the cuff that it's 

14 probably just sort of a little bit of a stronger 

15 reactant than bicarbonate, but I could be wrong. 

16 Yes.

17 MR. NANDWANI: I don't know Rick has 

18 any idea, or maybe Wood, because he's also part 

19 of subcommittee and they may have reviewed this 

20 material before. Any comments from Wood or Rick?

21 MR. GREENWOOD: I'm not that familiar 

22 with those, so I have no comment
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1 MR. TURNER: Nor me.

2 MR. CALDWELL: Thanks. I'm good.

3 MS. SMITH: Okay. Next up is Carolyn, 

4 with acidified sodium chloride.

5 MS. DIMITRI: Okay. Acidified sodium 

6 chloride is a processing aid made from natural 

7 citric acid and it's -- has a secondary direct 

8 antimicrobial food treatment use, and an indirect 

9 food contact surface sanitizer. So basically, 

10 this is not very widely used. There were a few 

11 -- no objections really to relisting. And then 

12 one commenter suggested that this is something that 

13 we could look at in our review of sanitizers if 

14 that is actually something we're doing. I know 

15 there's been talks -- a lot of talk about 

16 sanitizers, and I don't really know where all of 

17 that stands, but this should maybe fit into that 

18 category. So that is basically what I have to 

19 report. Any questions? Please don't make a thing 

20 about review of sanitizers, though.

21 MS. SMITH: Okay. I see none. 

22 Carolyn, you also have carbon dioxide.
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1 MS. DIMITRI: Another interesting 

2 product. It has several uses, carbonation of 

3 beverages, it's used in modified atmospheric 

4 packaging and storage, and also used for pest 

5 control in storage for green and produce. And 

6 overall, there was a lot of support for relisting 

7 this product, and no one suggested that we should 

8 not relist it. Any questions?

9 Mindee.

10 MS. JEFFERY: Thanks. A question in 

11 general for the group. I'm trying to wrap my head 

12 around carbon dioxide in total for organic systems. 

13 So in handling relist it as a synthetics allowed, 

14 does that mean by implication natural is allowed 

15 also, natural versions of Co2 in organic systems 

16 in general? Or is that kind of outside the scope?

17 MS. SMITH: My understanding of the 

18 handling list is that it does not function the same 

19 way as the crops and livestock list, where 

20 nonsynthetics are inherently allowed. My 

21 understanding of the 605 is that it needs to be 

22 listed in both places.
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1 MS. JEFFERY: Okay. Thanks. I get 

2 confused on the crops and handling sometimes. I 

3 really appreciate your help.

4 MS. SMITH: Yes. I mean, Jared, 

5 correct me if I'm wrong, but that's always been 

6 my understanding.

7 Thumbs up from Mr. Clark.

8 Any other questions for Carolyn?

9 MS. DIMITRI: Everyone likes their 

10 carbonated beverages.

11 MS. SMITH: Yes.

12 Okay. Wood, you are next with sodium 

13 phosphates.

14 MR. TURNER: So we have a listing for 

15 sodium phosphate the 205.605(b) it's in allowed 

16 synthetics for use only in dairy foods. Sodium 

17 phosphates are salts used as pH control agents and 

18 buffers in organic dairy products. They stabilize 

19 milk, can emulsify cheese, and several other 

20 functions that are relevant to dairy production. 

21 They've been -- they're in that class of materials 

22 that have generally been regarded as safe.
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1 But, you know, they -- the comments over 

2 the years on sodium phosphates has been notably 

3 mixed, mostly along the line -- let's say in the 

4 context of concern about human health impacts and, 

5 I guess, it's what I would consider to be a debate 

6 on essentiality. You know, one of the issues on 

7 the health side is that there are other phosphates 

8 on the list. And so the implication that any one 

9 phosphate is particularly -- should be implicated 

10 in any human health considerations is hard to 

11 support in the science. But there is a -- there's 

12 always -- historically there's been a, sort of, 

13 a continued attention to this particular issue.

14 It's also, as a phosphate, you know, 

15 has some inherent eutrophication sort of water --

16 pollution to water body concerns. Phosphates are 

17 historically, you know, part of the scene in 

18 preparing detergents so -- I think we're all 

19 familiar with that. So, you know, and I -- and 

20 then I'll also just point out that there's a --

21 there is a -- in the process of making or producing 

22 sodium phosphates, phosphate rock is mixed with 
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1 sulfuric acid to form phosphoric acid. And given 

2 the fact that we have another conversation today, 

3 a proposal on phosphoric acid, you know, there are 

4 some implications for that proposal, Kyla, on this 

5 particular material, and some concern in the 

6 community about phosphoric acid as an ancillary 

7 substance that is involved in the production of 

8 sodium phosphates. So I think that's what I'll 

9 say, for the time being.

10 MS. SMITH: Thanks, Wood.

11 Any questions for Wood? I'm not seeing 

12 any.

13 We will go to Allison with her first 

14 Sunset presentation of potassium acid tartrate.

15 MS. JOHNSON: All right. Not casings.

16 MS. JEFFERY: Hold on. Yes. Are we 

17 -- casings or which one are we doing? We have 

18 casings on the slide.

19 MS. SMITH: Okay. Sorry. The order 

20 on my paper is --

21 MS. JEFFERY: It's so good.

22 MS. SMITH: Go ahead, Mindee.
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1 MS. JEFFERY: Okay. Thank you. Sorry.

2 I wanted to express my gratitude for 

3 the cadence of the way we do Sunsets because I don't 

4 live in this work every day in my regular life as 

5 a retailer. So I really appreciate the 

6 clarifications and the timing that we get to really 

7 dive into these substances and make sure we get 

8 all the perspectives landing in my understanding. 

9 So I just wanted to say that. And I love the 

10 spring meeting and our process of discovery.

11 So for casings, listed at 606, casings 

12 produced from intestines -- 606(b). And I had a 

13 couple of questions for certify -- for the 

14 stakeholders there and got some really great 

15 answers. Commenters in general are supportive of 

16 relisting for the few area -- a few areas for 

17 discovery. One group noted that nonorganic 

18 casings rely on chemically intensive livestock 

19 production, which in turn relies on chemically 

20 intensive corn and soya production, and asked the 

21 NOSB via the TR process, to identify the barriers 

22 to organic casing production.
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1 Another group requested that we think 

2 about having a work agenda item and a discussion 

3 document on the -- on those barriers, with the 

4 rationale that if organic meat is being 

5 slaughtered, then organic casings theoretically 

6 exist and should be required. And I'm super 

7 grateful for the lengthy answer to that question 

8 submitted in public comments by a producer, 

9 outlining the barriers to organic production of 

10 casings.

11 The more predominant casings in organic 

12 processing, according to this stakeholder, is 

13 derived from hog intestines. And since the 

14 organic hog industry is growing and it's tempting 

15 to assume that organic casings are available, that 

16 may be true at some point, but issues of scale are 

17 still at play. Organic hog production is roughly 

18 0.058 percent of the US totals. Intestines are 

19 not uniform within one animal, among herds, and 

20 throughout the population. In processing 

21 intestines are selected, sized, and assessed for 

22 quality.
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1 Farmer raised hogs for this producer 

2 has produced variable intestine sizes, making 

3 these casings unfeasible to use. They noted that 

4 small plants that slaughter less than several 

5 hundred hogs per day do not have the infrastructure 

6 to save, clean, sort, and select intestines. 

7 Instead, intestines go in the inedible barrel as 

8 offal. If separate -- if segregation were 

9 possible, it would take two to three weeks of 

10 organic production to accumulate just one barrel 

11 of intestines from organic hogs. And if it becomes 

12 possible to segregate, those intestines then 

13 wouldn't have an outlet for final organic casing 

14 production.

15 So, really appreciated the depth of 

16 that comment by a producer who really understands 

17 the dynamics. A certifier reflected that most 

18 organic sausage makers use cellulose as an 

19 alternative, but this doesn't meet consumer 

20 expectations. So a lot of really great 

21 information there from the comments. Is there a 

22 question?
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1 MS. SMITH: Nate, I saw your hand 

2 raised?

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes. I had -- it 

4 came and went. But the question I would have --

5 I echo your appreciation and defer the comments 

6 that we did get. I think for the folks asking --

7 trying to put two and two together where they're 

8 saying, there's more hogs being slaughtered, why 

9 don't we have a casings industry? That's 

10 something I would really like to hear more about 

11 in the fall meeting and put on the community to 

12 do a little bit of that business research, talking 

13 to known suppliers of organic casings and -- or 

14 casing production, and see what the barriers are? 

15 How, as a community, we can figure out how to 

16 overcome those barriers. I think I might 

17 challenge the growth of the hog industry 

18 assumption. It is still pretty small and it is 

19 not growing like the other species sectors. So 

20 I would just think that our community could come 

21 up with some really good business insights for how 

22 we might be able to do that.
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1 MS. SMITH: Thank you.

2 Amy.

3 MS. BRUCH: Yes. I agree with Nate, 

4 and just to try to have a little bit more a window 

5 into this world, I would be curious, you know, right 

6 now, what would be the ratio of using organic casing 

7 versus not, and see that percentage. If we can 

8 ask the community, you know, where it stands 

9 currently and then that was insightful by that 

10 producer to understand some of the barriers. I 

11 think, you know, those comments, I think they also 

12 wanting to attach them to this 205.606 category 

13 is really a huge opportunity to just leverage the 

14 $62 billion industry that our organic marketplace 

15 is, and start making opportunities for additional 

16 organic growth in some of these areas.

17 MS. JEFFERY: Yes. Just -- I 

18 definitely -- I really like your comment, Amy. 

19 And living on this farm right now I'm having this 

20 opportunity to watch the difficulty that a small 

21 producer faces in gaining access to processing 

22 facilities and then being able to do that 
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1 organically, is a barrier that I think we see as 

2 a country. And I hope that Organic can become part 

3 of the solution for the small producers in that 

4 area as well.

5 MS. BRUCH: Yes. Absolutely. One 

6 thing to add before -- I know there's other people 

7 that have their hands up, is these barriers. 

8 Actually some of them can be accomplished, I think, 

9 through this grant process that we heard about 

10 yesterday. You know, a climate-smart 

11 agriculture, the emphasis on processing systems, 

12 the emphasis on just more stakeholders being able 

13 to produce more things on their farm. So, you 

14 know, there's the conservation innovation grant. 

15 And also, you know, the climate-smart agriculture 

16 grants that we heard about yesterday. I think 

17 there's a point to processing and packaging 

18 equipment that I think producers should try to 

19 leverage a bit more of.

20 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Mindee.

21 Okay. Kim?

22 MS. HUSEMAN: Thank you, Kyla.
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1 Maybe this is segueing into Amy's last 

2 comment, is the difference between live production 

3 and processing. And I think where I'd be 

4 interested to get more feedback is from the 

5 manufacturing process and the barriers inside of 

6 the facilities around segregating and maintaining 

7 organic status once the harvesting process begins. 

8 And how, you know, what barriers and challenges 

9 there from that perspective. Then, you know, 

10 couple that with fragmented space, and what 

11 suggestions would be to try to overcome that 

12 fragmented space.

13 So all good things, though. And we see 

14 this in other aspects, not just casings, but this 

15 can segue into multiple facets in the animal 

16 production and green production aspect, as when 

17 you take a whole part and then divide it into its 

18 sub-parts. And how can we have organic stability 

19 in multiple arenas. But, yes, this is definitely 

20 one of them.

21 MS. SMITH: Carolyn.

22 MS. DIMITRI: This is just some general 
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1 information that I think might help when we think 

2 about casings as we go ahead. And so if you look 

3 at the 2019 census of organic farms, there were 

4 only 166 that were producing hogs. And in some 

5 research that I've been doing over the past year, 

6 you see there's a lot of pressure on organic 

7 livestock producers in terms of they don't have 

8 enough processing capacity and they don't have 

9 enough feed capacity. So, I don't know. I mean, 

10 it might be useful for us to think about, like, 

11 at what point would the hog market be developed 

12 enough where actually there could be a supply of 

13 casings that could be used as an input into the, 

14 you know, the next level of the supply chain.

15 MS. BRUCH: So I can only maybe think 

16 of one additional thing and this is a little bit 

17 of a carryover from yesterday. Carolyn was 

18 referencing census information and this could 

19 potentially be helpful, you know, when we were 

20 talking about --

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Amy, we're losing 

22 your sound a little.
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1 MS. BRUCH: Sorry. Can you hear me. 

2 I'll --

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes. Much better.

4 MS. BRUCH: -- try to talk a little 

5 louder. Okay. Yes. I don't know where I left 

6 off, but I was just mentioning that Carolyn brought 

7 up the comment about looking at information via 

8 census data and I know that that's not a 

9 all-encompassing status on what the market really 

10 has. So again, I'm just going to point out our 

11 -- the CACS comment about acres on certificates 

12 and that there were the community feedback about 

13 getting livestock information on certificates. 

14 So that would be a real good way to mass balance 

15 the current status of the industry with clarity. 

16 And having that information can be helpful to 

17 solve maybe some of these 205.606 type questions 

18 that we have. So, thank you.

19 MS. JEFFERY: That's the great 

20 comment. Thank everyone for all the input

21 MS. SMITH: Okay. I'm not seeing any 

22 more hands.
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1 So, Mindee, I'm going to get the order 

2 right now, we're going to go to pectin, which is 

3 also Mindee.

4 MS. JEFFERY: Thanks. Sorry. Just 

5 switching my notes here real quick. Technology

6 fail. Sorry.

7 Okay. So pectin, here we are 205.606, 

8 and you'll notice we're at (o) now. We had a recent 

9 rule-making that changed the listening to (o). 

10 And major question here is, what is happening with 

11 developments in the organic source of pectin? 

12 Public comments definitely support the relisting 

13 of this very ubiquitous and widely used substance 

14 in many areas. Routinely used as a stabilizer, 

15 a thickener, and a gelling agent, and that organic 

16 alternatives are not available or don't meet --

17 function at the same quality.

18 A commenter emphasized that pectin is 

19 essential to low sugar jams and there are no 

20 alternatives at this time. And that consumers 

21 with specialty diets rely heavily on certified 

22 organic low sugar jams. Pectin producer 
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1 associations commented that supplies of 

2 organically produced fruit and citrus peels are 

3 simply not sufficient to produce enough pectin from 

4 organic sources. Most of the time, we heard from 

5 an oral commenter, that it seems like most of the 

6 organic fruits that could be used to make pectin 

7 are sold as whole fresh fruit.

8 And again, you know, we saw a lot of 

9 different commenters noting that the supplies of 

10 organic fruit peels are insufficient. They're 

11 listed as essential by a number of different 

12 organizations and comments. One group suggested 

13 that low methoxyl pectin is a result of a synthetic 

14 process and the National List should be limited 

15 to the high methoxyl pectin as it is extracted from 

16 citrus and apple. A group suggested that all 606 

17 listings should be seriously considered for 

18 removal.

19 An oral commenter -- oh, I already got 

20 that one, sorry. And then we saw that slide from 

21 the oral comment that was on -- reflected the 

22 functionality of pectin versus alternatives in the 
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1 categories of the gel texture, protein 

2 stabilization at low pH, mouth feel in beverage, 

3 and acid stability. Pectin, according to the 

4 commenter, was the only organic alternative that 

5 could meet all four expectations. Yes. That sums 

6 me up. Are there any questions?

7 MS. SMITH: Go ahead, Amy, and then I 

8 have one.

9 MS. BRUCH: Okay. It sounds good.

10 Thank you, Mindee. Again, this is a 

11 205.606 and just another point on being able to 

12 solve some of these barriers to additional organic 

13 use would probably be looking at, you know, the 

14 benefit from a farmer point of view. Also farmers 

15 you mentioned, you know, are selling their fruits 

16 mainly to the whole fruit market. There are, you 

17 know, irregularities in products that go to juice. 

18 And to have -- for a farmer to have a dual income 

19 stream, both for their main product and also a 

20 byproduct would be really helpful and create the 

21 synergistic effect really to grow farmers' farms. 

22 So I really think a 205.606 identifying the 
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1 barriers, like you mentioned in the past, but 

2 looking at the relevancy to our current 

3 marketplace, I think would lead to a lot of 

4 opportunities that aren't being tapped into for 

5 professional organic producers.

6 MS. SMITH: I had a similar comment. 

7 Just about -- as you said, Mindee that, you know, 

8 so much of the product going to the whole fruit 

9 market. But yes, what about all the peels that 

10 are coming off of oranges that are for juice, or 

11 apples for juice, or apple sauce, or whatever. 

12 So where did those end up and can -- if -- can those

13 be utilized into making organic pectin.

14 Javier.

15 MR. ZAMORA: Yes. I was just going to 

16 say I echo what you just said. I think there's 

17 a big opportunity there for some producers. I know 

18 you're going to sell your apples as fresh and --

19 and maybe for juicing and stuff, but there's other 

20 crops that could be used. I can only think of two 

21 right away. And number one is quince. Second, 

22 there could be some wild apples that could be used. 
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1 And the third one, maybe the guavas are really, 

2 really high pectin crops. I'm just thinking on 

3 my childhood and how in Mexico quince candies are 

4 created in a very easy way. And they can make it 

5 really easy, as well as the guava, you know, kind 

6 of a candy type of thing that are very predominant 

7 in the Mexican culture. So maybe there's a good 

8 opportunity there for some producers that can, you 

9 know, use some of those things.

10 MS. SMITH: Thanks, Javier.

11 Brian.

12 MR. CALDWELL: Yes. In our area, 

13 there's an increasing amount of organic apples 

14 being used for hard cider. And so the pomice, 

15 which is the -- after the squeeze -- after the juice 

16 is squeezed out, the pomice is what's left over, 

17 and it seems like that could be, you know, a source 

18 of pectin. Often now, it is just applied to the 

19 field where it has really beneficial effects. But 

20 I think that there's -- if -- a problem would be 

21 that if pectin is allowed under 205.606 that's not 

22 organic, there would never be a sort of an organic 
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1 price premium that would allow an organic pectin 

2 market to develop, or a organic pectin production 

3 facility, or something to develop. So I think that 

4 might be one of our barriers as well. Not sure 

5 how to address that.

6 MS. JEFFERY: Yes. Thank you, Brian. 

7 That's a -- it's a good point. I think I missed

8 the opportunity to also say that I appreciated one 

9 certifier listed that they had 49 nonorganic pectin 

10 uses and 4 organic pectin uses. So I think there 

11 is a little bit of development that I really hear 

12 you on. How do we move the needle on this one?

13 MS. SMITH: Rick.

14 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. Just a comment 

15 for some of the new board members. I've been on 

16 the board long enough to know that we continually 

17 struggle with -- and I guess, I'll call it the 

18 chicken and egg thing, trying to get new markets, 

19 but at the same time not destroying the existing 

20 ones. And so how do you get incentive if you keep 

21 the nonorganic products on the listings, and 

22 develop the new market. So I don't think -- at 
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1 least in my mind, I have never figured out how we 

2 can do that. It's almost like we need a parallel 

3 process.

4 The other comment I'd make is, from 

5 reading some of the things from the pectin people, 

6 all pectins are not the same. And they seem to 

7 have -- they like citrus pectin more than apple 

8 pectin and others. So I think it also would take 

9 reformulating their products. So it's really --

10 it's a difficult problem that we've dealt with on 

11 so many other levels. But -- so I don't have an 

12 answer, but I thought I'd at least mention the 

13 problem.

14 MS. SMITH: Yes. Thanks for that, 

15 Rick. I will say that there have been examples. 

16 So, hops being one that I'm thinking about that 

17 was on 606. And there was then enough of an 

18 organic, like, hops market, and then whoever, you 

19 know -- I don't remember all the ins and outs, but 

20 had sort of worked to corner that, and really 

21 develop that market petitioned for the removal on 

22 606. So I do think that there is a process and 
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1 a path forward for that if, you know, someone out 

2 there really gets a stronghold in the organic 

3 pectin market, they can petition for the removal. 

4 So, anyway, that's the current process as I know 

5 it. Any other questions or comments on pectin?

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: I just always think 

7 of 606 as the land of business opportunities.

8 MS. SMITH: I know, right?

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: A little more 

10 surprised that people aren't just constantly 

11 jumping on these. It seems like the framework is 

12 here to help the business along.

13 MS. SMITH: Okay.

14 Okay. Now, back to potassium tartrate 

15 with Allison.

16 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you.

17 All right. Potassium acid tartrate is 

18 a 606(p). Most of us know this material as cream 

19 of tartar. It occurs naturally in grapes and it's 

20 a byproduct of wine making. It has a few main uses. 

21 It's used in baked goods, as an ingredient in 

22 baking powder, and for stabilizing egg whites, It's 
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1 also used for pH control, including for adjusting 

2 acidity of wine and as a antimicrobial.

3 And it's basically an extract of the 

4 crusty sediment that sticks to the sides of wine 

5 barrels and wine vats and it's extracted with hot 

6 water from wine lees, which is the dead yeast and 

7 grape sediments. It doesn't involve any reagents 

8 or solvents, just hot water. This material was 

9 changed from being listed as a nonagricultural 

10 synthetic to agricultural in 2019 after the last 

11 round of Sunset review and the NOSB recommendation. 

12 So it does have that commercial availability 

13 requirement attached to it now.

14 We received a handful of comments. 

15 Several certifiers noted that they have clients 

16 who use it, including as a pH adjuster in wine 

17 making, and in baked goods. Several comments 

18 seemed neutral, the other had no clients using it 

19 or no member comments, and many noted that there 

20 are no listed products. And there was only one 

21 comment in support of removal. They argued that 

22 this material is a product of chemical intensive 
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1 agriculture, which is always a really important 

2 reminder for us, I think, when we're looking at 

3 all of these 606 listings. And they advocated for 

4 Sunsetting it to ensure that organic is required, 

5 and also noted that there are substitutes for 

6 baking, although the link that they provided in 

7 solution said that it's actually pretty hard to 

8 substitute for.

9 The stakeholder question presented is 

10 about whether there is enough supply to meet 

11 commercial needs. And we didn't get any comments 

12 on commercial availability, although several 

13 commenters noted that they'd be interested in the 

14 answer. No certifiers said anything about how 

15 they oversee the commercial availability searches 

16 for operations that are using the nonorganic form. 

17 So it'd be really helpful before the fall to hear 

18 from anyone who produces, uses, or certifies 

19 organic potassium acid tartrate. It's hard to 

20 tell if there's actually any on the market from 

21 what we've received so far.

22 I will note that from -- putting my, 
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1 well, certifier hat back on, I think commercial 

2 availability for this material is particularly 

3 hard because it's derived from wine, and that 

4 because of the input limitations for organic wine, 

5 there are very few wines that are actually 

6 certified organic. Most have the made with 

7 organic grapes claim. So I think that means that 

8 we could only -- the only source of potassium acid 

9 tartrate as organic will have to come from those 

10 organic wines, and not made with organic wines. 

11 So that may be a limiting factor. That's all.

12 MS. SMITH: Questions for Allison. We 

13 are like rocking the schedule by the way, guys, 

14 I've got to say. Next up, we are going to get into 

15 some proposals. And the first one --

16 MS. HUSEMAN: I can -- did -- sorry, 

17 but I'm going to have to turn my --

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: We've got two more 

19 Sunsets.

20 MS. SMITH: Oh, crap. Sorry, Kim

21 MS. HUSEMAN: No. No problem. You 

22 can skip over them.
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1 MS. SMITH: All the switching really 

2 has -- my thing -- my sheet is all wrong. Oh, my 

3 gosh. Kim, I'm sorry. Attapulgite and 

4 diatomaceous earth.

5 MS. HUSEMAN: Not to worry. I 

6 appreciate everybody working with me and my 

7 technical errors of not having power at my house 

8 for a while, but I'm back up and going. So we will, 

9 yes, so attapulgite.

10 So attapulgite is under 605 -- or, 

11 sorry, 205.605(a) non-synthetic allowed. 

12 Attapulgite, as a processing aid in the handling 

13 of plant and animal oils. Some of these references 

14 will be very similar to bentonite. It seems that 

15 there are some crossover applications to where you 

16 would use one or another. The written comments 

17 that we received -- well, I'll back up here to --

18 the questions that we had for the stakeholders.

19 As attapulgite is used as a natural 

20 bleaching clay for the purification of vegetable 

21 and animal oils. The function of a bleaching clay 

22 is to remove undesirable by-products, impurities, 
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1 for the vegetable oil and animal fat, thus 

2 improving the appearance, flavor, taste, and 

3 stability of the final product. Attapulgite is 

4 manufactured -- it's a clay which is surface mined 

5 by open-pit method, stripping by scrapers, 

6 draglines, or bulldozers, and extraction by 

7 shovels, backhoes, small draglines, or front-end 

8 loaders. The clay is then loaded onto trucks and 

9 transported to the processing plant where it's then 

10 dried, milled, and sieved to obtain the desirable 

11 range of particle sizes.

12 So we had asked stakeholders for 

13 feedback if it's be -- if attapulgite is being used 

14 in organic production today; the industries that 

15 would be most impacted with its removal from the 

16 National List; and then furthering for health 

17 concerns from the mining aspect. I wouldn't say 

18 that we received much in the way of the questions 

19 that we had asked from stakeholders, but it was 

20 angled slightly different in the responses that 

21 we did receive.

22 From a certifier standpoint it was 
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1 stated that three, at the most, from two different 

2 certifiers, have operations that had attapulgite 

3 listed. One of the certifying agency made mention 

4 to the 2010 TR, where attapulgite notes that some 

5 types of the attapulgite require acid activation 

6 to achieve the necessary surface area for final 

7 use efficacy and some attapulgites are acid 

8 activated, which is treated with a sulfuric or 

9 hydrochloric acid to enhance it's bleaching 

10 activation for using and clarifying edible and 

11 non-edible oils.

12 Non-acid treated attapulgite is 

13 appropriately listed under 205.605(a). If the 

14 intent is to to allow for acid activated, that 

15 should be listed under 205.605(b). Really we only 

16 have it listed as 605(a) and which segues into 

17 another certifying body, mentioning that they do 

18 verify attapulgite if not acid leeched, acid 

19 activated, or acid treated. So there seems to be 

20 maybe some clarity concerns as far as the type of 

21 attapulgite being utilized, and if it's being 

22 utilized sufficiently under it's correct listing. 
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1 It should be an annotation or a second listing.

2 But then to follow up, based off of 

3 other comments from interest groups and also listed 

4 in, you know, from certifying bodies, the need for 

5 attapulgite to be on the National List and strong 

6 support to challenge, wanting to hear more from 

7 stakeholders who are utilizing attapulgite, and 

8 the necessity where maybe bentonite or kaolin is 

9 not sufficient, as those are also listed on the 

10 National List and mentioned as possible 

11 alternatives to be able to remove a substance.

12 I would say then -- and just, kind of, 

13 to follow that up, based off of some survey results, 

14 the material does not meet the essentiality 

15 criteria. So I want to challenge that, if that's 

16 truly the case, or if there is other stakeholders 

17 that, you know, come forward and mention how it 

18 is a necessity. But it does seem that in past 

19 reviews it may have been passed, maybe not out of 

20 necessity, but just out of a lack of support to 

21 remove it, more or less. So I want some more 

22 stakeholder feedback, if we can get it, and then 
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1 similar to bentonite to challenge the acid 

2 activated versus not acid activated and see if 

3 there's parallels between attapulgite and 

4 bentonite. And that's all I have there.

5 MS. SMITH: Questions for Kim?

6 Go ahead, Liz.

7 MS. GRAZNAK: Good day. This is maybe 

8 not specific to attapulgite, but being new, could 

9 somebody help me better clarify and understand what 

10 you're talking about with an (a) versus a (b) 

11 listing, like, a first versus a second listing. 

12 That is not clear to me.

13 MS. SMITH: Sure. So on the handling 

14 list at 205.605 here, these are all nonag, 

15 nonorganic materials that are divided into either 

16 synthetic or non-synthetic. And it's a little bit 

17 different, like I was saying before, whereas like 

18 the crops and livestock lists function just a 

19 little bit differently in that all non-synthetics 

20 or naturals are allowed -- inherently allowed 

21 unless they're prohibited. In which case they 

22 would end up on 205.602 for crops or 205.604 for 
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1 livestock. And then the opposite is true, where 

2 synthetics are prohibited unless they're 

3 specifically allowed.

4 So with the handling list, so to be used 

5 in -- as -- in or on organics -- or products labeled 

6 as organic, or made with organic they have to be 

7 listed in -- like, there's no assumption that 

8 they're allowed. And so whenever we -- whenever 

9 a material or substance is petitioned, the first 

10 vote that we take is to classify the material. 

11 And we classify it as synthetic or nonsynthetic. 

12 And that's where -- that's then where it gets 

13 placed on the list.

14 However, there have been further 

15 instructions and guidances developed along the way 

16 that have helped the board, and certifiers, and 

17 material review organizations make those 

18 determinations. And so those now, like, live in 

19 the National Organic Program Handbook, often 

20 referred to as the decision tree, right? So 

21 there's, like, the ag/nonag decision tree and 

22 there's the synthetic/non-synthetic decision 
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1 tree. And so that helps the board and others make 

2 those classification material -- or classification 

3 determinations.

4 But those didn't exist when the list 

5 was first developed. And so there have been times 

6 where we didn't get it right, or manufacturing has 

7 changed, you know, so that's why we, like, 

8 re-uplist TRs every so often. And so there often 

9 will, either be through a petition, or our own, 

10 like, board work where -- where we will decide that 

11 we either want to, like, reclassify a material or, 

12 you know, move it around a little bit.

13 Does that answer your question, Liz?

14 Okay. Any other questions for Kim?

15 Okay. You want to move to diatomaceous 

16 earth.

17 MS. HUSEMAN: Yes. And thank you for 

18 that explanation, Kyla. It was very well said.

19 MS. SMITH: Thank you.

20 Yes. And this is just, Jared, an open 

21 invitation to, like, if I'm saying anything that 

22 is not correct, like, please jump in at any point, 
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1 Jared or Andrea, to correct me.

2 MS. HUSEMAN: That was great.

3 Okay. So we'll move forward with the 

4 final handling Sunset item today which is 

5 diatomaceous earth, so specifically listed under 

6 205.605(a) as a nonsynthetic allowed, for food 

7 filtration aid only. Diatomaceous earth has 

8 several applications, very specifically looking 

9 for this -- the food filtering aid. So 

10 diatomaceous earth, or also referenced as DE used 

11 as a filtering aid in food productions of syrups, 

12 juices, beer, beverages, and other products.

13 Diatomaceous earth is made from the 

14 fossilized remains of diatoms. Their skeletons 

15 are made of a natural substance called silica. 

16 Diatoms accumulate in the sediment of rivers, 

17 streams, lakes, and oceans, and is mined in 

18 quarries or open pits.

19 So questions to our stakeholders were, 

20 Is the continuing use of DE today -- is there 

21 continuing use of DE today in organic production. 

22 Have there been any changes in the environmental 
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1 issues? And are there alternative filtration aids 

2 allowing for the removal of DE on the National List? 

3 Overwhelmingly, from several responses that we 

4 received is that the need for diatomaceous earth 

5 in the production -- very specifically, the Juice 

6 Products Association did comment saying that DE 

7 is being used and it's needed and to not get off 

8 the list.

9 That -- Moser also mentioned that it 

10 -- from a handling perspective -- although it's 

11 mainly used as a pest control in the use of food 

12 production it is needed. From a syrup production 

13 standpoint there was a four out of five necessity 

14 ranked for the ability to produce maple syrup, and 

15 the need for diatomaceous earth in that particular 

16 arena, you know, for you to be able to remove the 

17 insolubles and the impurities, there's a need in 

18 the organic states. I do not have any commenters 

19 that opposed it to be relisted, so felt like it 

20 was pretty straightforward.

21 That's all I've got, Kyla.

22 MS. SMITH: Thanks, Kim.
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1 Any questions for Kim on diatomaceous 

2 earth?

3 Okay. Now we are through Sunsets. 

4 Thank you for bearing with me fumbling around like 

5 that. And now we will move to the proposal on CPC, 

6 and I will pass to Wood.

7 MR. TURNER: Thanks, Kyla.

8 We have a petition material that is 

9 called cetylpyridinium chloride. I will never say 

10 that again over the course of this session and I'll 

11 call it CPC from here on out, but -- and I want 

12 to just preface by saying, I am a torch carrier 

13 on this particular petition for our former 

14 colleague, Dr. Asa Bradman, who did most of the 

15 work on this, prior to his rotating off of the 

16 Board. So I hope you will -- you all give me as 

17 much generosity in your -- in my non-technical sort 

18 of description, my non -- I'm not a doctor, of this 

19 material. But it's -- I just want to preface it 

20 that way.

21 So we have a material here that's been 

22 petitioned as an antimicrobial processing aid 
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1 specifically for application onto poultry or 

2 poultry parts at slaughter or processing plants. 

3 And it's being petitioned to be listed at 605(b) 

4 synthetic, nonagricultural, nonorganic substance 

5 allowed in or on processed products labeled as 

6 organic or made with organic ingredients. It 

7 would be added to water as a drench or dip to reduce 

8 populations of foodborne pathogens such as 

9 salmonella and compylobacter that may be present 

10 on raw poultry.

11 The proposed listing would indicate, 

12 CPC antimicrobial food treatment for use according 

13 to FDA limitation. The petition came in -- end 

14 of 2019, amended in early 2021. TR was found 

15 sufficient -- or was produced and found sufficient 

16 in August of '21, and we're moving it forward here 

17 today.

18 There's a few issues that I -- and I 

19 know you all have made -- give materials in the 

20 comments. Actually, fairly few -- we didn't hear 

21 very much from folks in the -- in our oral comments, 

22 but there were some -- a significant number of 
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1 comments in our written comments. So there's a 

2 few issues and I just want to try to summarize them 

3 for you.

4 So one of the most fundamental relates 

5 to the fact that what we're talking about here is 

6 a material that is in a class of substances referred 

7 to as QACs, or quaternary ammonium compounds. And 

8 these are, you know, microbicides. We're talking 

9 about a material that has -- a set of materials 

10 that has sort of risen in prominence, I think, over 

11 the course of our confusion, our collective 

12 obsession with what to do about COVID-19. And so 

13 we've seen a lot of concern and a lot of -- a rise 

14 in the use of these materials. They're very 

15 powerful materials that are antimicrobial in 

16 nature and have -- many have indicated there's a 

17 number of, you know, impacts both into human health 

18 and to the environment associated from --

19 associated with QACs.

20 So I'll say that. There's also a 

21 concern in this material that when you apply 

22 something like this, that QAC or that material is 
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1 going to be -- there will be residues from that 

2 material not only on the surfaces, but also on the 

3 meat that's being treated with that material.

4 Another issue relates to sort of this, 

5 I guess, there are two issues that are kind of 

6 looming fairly really large, I think, in petitions 

7 like this. We have an ongoing -- some of you are 

8 aware of this, we have an ongoing process to try 

9 to understand where and how we review sanitizers. 

10 What is the appropriate rotation of sanitizers 

11 in Organic? How do we evaluate the sanitizer 

12 toolkit? How do we ensure that in Organic we are 

13 meeting the expectation that the consumer has, 

14 relative to food safety but not doing that 

15 indiscriminately, not introducing new materials 

16 that are inconsistent with Organic.

17 And so this is an important issue and 

18 this would be, you know, this petition which would 

19 sort of introduce a new sanitizer into the mix. 

20 Not necessarily -- it doesn't necessarily suggest 

21 -- it's not -- it doesn't necessarily provide any 

22 helpful guidance to us on sort of what the right 
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1 rotation and what the right review of sanitizers 

2 needs to be. It would just be a new sanitizer and 

3 an extremely powerful antimicrobial as a result. 

4 I'll indicate that we also have another 

5 antimicrobial petition in the mix as well. That's 

6 on a different timeline from this material. So 

7 that's important to consider.

8 And then perhaps, maybe most important 

9 here is the idea that we -- that in order to produce 

10 CPC, you have to use a material -- an ancillary 

11 or other material called propylene glycol to 

12 complete the formulation. And it's outlined --

13 this process is outlined in full in the TR. I'm 

14 not even going to begin to explain it to you, but 

15 it does raise important questions because we don't 

16 have any guidance in handling reviews -- for how 

17 to review materials -- ancillary and other 

18 materials like propylene glycol. And so it is a 

19 functional requirement -- to be able to use CPC, 

20 you have a functional requirement to use propylene 

21 glycol. And so this is a complicated issue.

22 That said, so no clear -- got no clear 
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1 pathway on sanitizers. No clear pathway on 

2 ancillary or other materials, and how to review 

3 them. However, the subcommittee in its 

4 discussions believe that for the other reasons that 

5 I've articulated related to the use of QACs and

6 the use -- and the residue issue, for example, that 

7 we could review this material on the merits outside 

8 of those other few considerations. So that's kind 

9 of where we are.

10 So there is a, you know, there -- I won't 

11 go through the history of, kind of, the discussion 

12 between the NOP and the NOSB. I'm not even sure 

13 I fully have internalized it myself in terms of 

14 sort of how to understand this other ingredient 

15 issue. Only to say that there have been, you know, 

16 at least as far back as 2011 and probably further, 

17 ongoing discussion back and forth related to how 

18 to think about this idea of other materials or 

19 ancillary materials. So we're sort of in a 

20 situation where we're sort of thinking about 

21 ancillary materials like propylene glycol and kind 

22 of, I think, accumulating this list of these 
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1 materials that are required to sort of move other 

2 products forward.

3 And when the NOP provides guidance to 

4 us on how to appropriately review ancillary 

5 substances, we can begin -- we can sort of take 

6 into consideration how to do that. Again, I don't 

7 want to get confused. I don't want to confuse the 

8 issue here because I am suggesting that we have 

9 a discussion on this material on the merits outside 

10 of the ancillary material issue, and outside of 

11 sort of the sanitizer reviews. Because I think 

12 it has some of the unique considerations that are 

13 important, including, I should say, very strong 

14 community concern about the material in our written 

15 comments, and specifically about this issue of 

16 quaternary ammonium compounds, quats, QACs, 

17 however you want to refer to them, that are 

18 considered to be -- considered to leave persistent 

19 residues, and are thought of by non-profit 

20 organizations, by certifiers, by individuals who 

21 commented to us that they're not consistent with 

22 organic principles.
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1 You all have seen these comments as 

2 well. I think, you know, we -- you know, it's --

3 I think it's been unusual in my tenure on the board 

4 to see such sort of emphatic language about 

5 material as I've seen related to this material. 

6 I'm sure there are others -- other examples, but 

7 I think people have been shocked to see a material 

8 like this come before the Board for consideration. 

9 That said, you know, the industry as a whole, 

10 suggests that it's a critical material.

11 One thing that, you know, one thing that 

12 I noted, that I've been sort of wrestling with in 

13 my brain, is this idea that somehow CPC ensures 

14 higher quality meat than other sanitizers. And 

15 I have a really hard time with that. I can't quite 

16 -- I can't get my head around that. I don't want 

17 to get on a soap box about it, but I don't understand 

18 that. As a regular consumer of organic poultry, 

19 I just don't -- I just can't -- I think we're talking 

20 about something that for me almost goes to the same 

21 level as sort of the obsession that we see in the 

22 marketplace around imperfect food.
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1 I mean, you know, I'll eat your apples 

2 anyday, Brian, with a spot on them. I don't care. 

3 I don't -- I'm not saying that's analogous to this, 

4 but I'm suggesting that somehow the food quality 

5 statement that I've heard from the industry and 

6 some of the comments are overstated. Not to take 

7 anything away from the concern about the pathogens 

8 we're talking about here. These are important 

9 considerations.

10 And I think if -- I don't want to 

11 suggest, I don't want to diminish or minimize in 

12 any way kind of a need to ensure food safety for 

13 the consumer. On the other hand, at what cost, 

14 and what, you know, what do we have to do to provide 

15 that? And I'm not at a place myself in this review 

16 where I feel like this material is necessary to 

17 be able to ensure that. I know there's -- there 

18 seems to be some concern from the industry in some 

19 of their comments that it's, you know, that I'm 

20 wrong on that, but I'll leave that there.

21 Let me see what else I wanted to add 

22 here.
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1 I think that's probably all I want to 

2 say for the moment, Kyla, on this. I think we 

3 should open it up for discussion and you and I, 

4 and others who have been involved in this process 

5 with Asa can try to take whatever questions may 

6 exist on this, and I'll stumble through them or 

7 clumsily try to handle those questions that I can, 

8 but that's where I am.

9 MS. SMITH: Yes. Thank you so much, 

10 Wood, for your work on this and taking this over 

11 from Asa. I know it was no small task and, like, 

12 yes, I 100 percent have your back and will answer 

13 the questions as best as we can.

14 Rick, go ahead.

15 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. First of all, 

16 Wood, I feel your pain. These are tough issues. 

17 And I think there's always this push to have more 

18 disinfectants because of generating resistance in 

19 microbial organisms. And so the industry wants 

20 a lot of choices, so they can use one thing for 

21 a while and then switch so they don't do it. My 

22 concern with the quats besides the residue is they 
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1 have some real limitations and there's a tremendous 

2 amount of literature on the fact that, for 

3 instance, pseudomonas aeruginosa can grow very 

4 nicely in quats.

5 And I've had real experience with that 

6 doing hospital microbiology where they used to 

7 disinfect indwelling catheters between patients 

8 and ended up giving them pseudomonas because it 

9 was growing in the disinfecting solution. So I've

10 never liked it. That's a personal thing because 

11 I've seen problems with it and I don't know 

12 basically if it's really necessary considering the 

13 other choices that we have. I know we're always 

14 pushed to add one more, so we have lots of, as 

15 everyone says, tools in the toolbox. But I don't 

16 know if this is a particularly good one to add.

17 MS. SMITH: Allison?

18 MS. JOHNSON: Thanks so much for the 

19 overview. It was really easy to follow. And I 

20 just wanted to add that when I saw this on our voting 

21 list for my first meeting, I was actually kind of 

22 relieved, because this one seemed so 
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1 straightforward from my certifying days. Quats 

2 were the no, no. It's, like, hard line, oh, it's 

3 a quat, not allowed. So it seems like a really 

4 straightforward decision to me. It's not 

5 compatible with the, you know, practices that have 

6 been in place for 20 years. And I don't see any 

7 reason to add it now.

8 MS. SMITH: Thanks, Alison.

9 I'll add too that PCO certifies a decent 

10 amount of poultry operations. And to my 

11 knowledge, we have not had any operators inquiring 

12 about use of CPC or any type of quat as a indirect 

13 through contact, as a carcass wash.

14 Dilip.

15 MR. NANDWANI: Well, I'll just add a 

16 quick comment as I shared on subcommittee, that 

17 there are a few reports available in the scientific 

18 community which says about these residues on the 

19 poultry skin. And also there was a concern having 

20 some infection in pulmonary cells in humans as 

21 well. There are some good reports available which 

22 I had shared. So I just wanted to add that. Thank 
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1 you.

2 MR. TURNER: Thanks, Dilip.

3 MS. SMITH: Thanks, Dilip.

4 Logan.

5 MS. PETREY: Hi. Thank you. This is 

6 more directed towards Kyla on follow-up to that 

7 certifying poultry places. Have you noticed that 

8 there's an issue with sanitizers not working and 

9 salmonella breaking either -- or they in trouble 

10 and needing something?

11 MS. SMITH: Not to my knowledge. But 

12 I don't know, things sort of only filter up to me 

13 when it's dire, like, straits. But I haven't heard 

14 anything from, like, our review side, or our 

15 inspections team along those lines.

16 MS. PETREY: Because I was expecting 

17 a little bit more, you know, if there was a case, 

18 more commenters to say that there was a need. And, 

19 Wood, I don't know, I didn't see enough --

20 MR. TURNER: It was limited.

21 MS. PETREY: -- the more -- except, 

22 probably it came from maybe the producers of the 
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1 products, than more so the growers or the 

2 producers. So, okay. Thank you.

3 MS. SMITH: Kim.

4 MS. HUSEMAN: Yes. Maybe just to 

5 follow up on that aspect, both the comment and the 

6 question. Stakeholders that I are in contact with 

7 have not mentioned a need for additional products 

8 in order to safely produce poultry products. And 

9 I guess then my question to Wood would be, did you 

10 find that there were stakeholder comments, 

11 requesting and needing a product such as CPC, in 

12 addition to current practices, in order to maintain 

13 safe product in the poultry industry?

14 MR. TURNER: Yes. I think as Logan 

15 just alluded to Kim, and I appreciate you asking 

16 the question directly, there were, I mean, there 

17 were -- there was a comment from a producer 

18 suggesting -- a large producer that suggested that 

19 it would be beneficial, to use Rick's words, a 

20 beneficial addition to the tool kit. But not a 

21 flood of comments by any stretch of the 

22 imagination. I think the only real comments we 
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1 heard in the written comments in support of that 

2 were from that one large producer and from the 

3 petitioner. So I'm particularly interested in 

4 your perspective on that, Kim, so I appreciate you 

5 weighing in.

6 MS. SMITH: Mindee.

7 MS. JEFFERY: Thanks. I -- in the 

8 write up, I really appreciated the emphasis of the 

9 -- that CPC is non essential, and that the organic 

10 poultry industry is supported by existing 

11 materials, and that we are in compliance with food 

12 safety standards. And I'm concerned with this 

13 notion it -- that the -- it's expected to remove 

14 the majority of CPC from treated surfaces, but that 

15 CPC residues have been found on poultry skin.

16 And I got to tell you, this is a customer 

17 service nightmare waiting to happen at the good 

18 earth because our customers are highly educated. 

19 And if somebody started telling them that there 

20 was quats in their chicken skin, they're going to 

21 walk up to the meat counter and they're going to 

22 ask the first person, which one of these organic 
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1 chicken companies that you carry doesn't use quats 

2 in their processing? And then we're going to go 

3 back and try to split that hair.

4 And the danger here for me is that, 

5 like, long-term titration of consumer investment 

6 in organic. And I, like -- I'm a nerd. I love 

7 independent natural food retailers and I love 

8 co-ops. And I've spent 20 years going around the 

9 country, every time I was at a trade show, trying 

10 to get into every single one of them I could and, 

11 like, walk in and ask harder customer service 

12 questions to kind of see where we are with organic 

13 education.

14 And it's a tough one, man. You really 

15 have to work hard to get that customer service 

16 level, like, real organic enthusiasts, where you 

17 get great answers from every person in the store. 

18 And this one would really not. And so I really 

19 feel strongly that this is a -- this is not 

20 something that we can do to customer service in 

21 organic land right now. Because if we don't need 

22 it in the poultry industry, we certainly don't need 
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1 this question in the customer service interaction.

2 MR. TURNER: Yes. Yes. Totally.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: If we were in person, 

4 I could just start clapping right now.

5 MS. SMITH: That was so good, Mindee.

6 MR. TURNER: Well said, Mindee. I 

7 only have one more point to that. And I -- there 

8 will be people -- I mean, I don't want to preempt 

9 our vote here, Kyla. But there will be people in 

10 the community who will say -- who might say, well, 

11 I mean, this is -- CPC is in every mouthwash and 

12 toothpaste that we use every single day. And first 

13 of all, it's not in every mouthpiece -- mouthwash 

14 and toothpaste we use every single day. And second 

15 of all, if the FDA says it's safe in mouthwash and 

16 toothpaste it doesn't mean it's consistent with 

17 organic principles. And I just -- I want to make 

18 that distinction really clear. They're not the 

19 same thing. And we're not charged with the same 

20 mandate. And so we have to represent the point 

21 of view that we have here as an organic community 

22 on materials like this, so --
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1 MS. SMITH: That's what -- it's, like, 

2 100 percent on the nose.

3 Rick.

4 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. Just one final 

5 comment and I think that's what's great about 

6 Organic, is that we keep this wall up. And I'll 

7 give you the example of aspirin. I don't know how 

8 many of you saw that for years they've talked about 

9 taking aspirin to prevent heart attacks and 

10 physicians do it. And -- what was it, two days 

11 ago, suddenly it's said, that's not a good idea. 

12 You shouldn't do it. And so I think our plan is 

13 to keep all of these things out, so we don't have 

14 to come back to people ten years later and say, 

15 huh, sorry, you got cancer because we allowed this

16 in. I think that's what people look to for 

17 Organic. So I think having a strict line is 

18 actually very important.

19 MS. SMITH: Okay. I'm seeing no more 

20 hands, but this is a biggie, so I don't want to 

21 rush the time. And we're doing pretty good. So 

22 feeling ready to vote?
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1 MR. TURNER: Kyla, can I just say one 

2 thing. So well, maybe I'm preempting. Sorry. 

3 I wanted to, I guess, clarify, the way we've 

4 articulated the motions. Is that appropriate at 

5 this point?

6 MR. GREENWOOD: It definitely is. 

7 Yes. I want to make sure we get this right.

8 MR. TURNER: Okay. Right. So we --

9 so I just want to make sure -- I'm going to let 

10 Kyla manage -- Kyla, as chair, manage this. But 

11 it -- there is a -- will -- there will be a -- I'll 

12 be making a motion about the classification of this 

13 material. I'm also making a motion about the 

14 material that would suggest if it were approved, 

15 it can only be approved -- can only be used with 

16 propylene glycol. So that's an important part of 

17 this. So we are adding that stipulation to the 

18 motion so you're aware that what we're voting for 

19 is something that would place it outside of a clear 

20 process. Kyla, can you help me with that?

21 MS. SMITH: Sure. Yes. So we'll take 

22 two votes, again, like I was describing before.
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1 MR. TURNER: Yes.

2 MS. SMITH: We have to -- this is a 

3 petition material. So it's not a Sunset material.

4 MR. TURNER: Right.

5 MS. SMITH: So this material first 

6 needs to go through a classification motion. So 

7 that's the first motion. It's on the screen. And 

8 both of these motions come first and seconded out 

9 of the subcommittee so we don't need to redo that, 

10 correct? So they just come first and seconded and 

11 we don't have to go through the whole motioning 

12 process. And so we'll just -- I'll read them into 

13 the record as such and then we'll proceed with the 

14 vote.

15 For the National List motion -- and 

16 again, I'm going to try -- I don't want to confuse 

17 everybody. So because -- but this will be, in the 

18 fall when we're having to vote on Sunsets, a little 

19 bit more complicated because we are sort of having 

20 to flip back-and-forth with your yeses and nos. 

21 But for this motion, the National List motion, 

22 it is to add. And so a no vote would be to not 
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1 add. It would not appear on the list. And just 

2 to clarify that there is an annotation as it is 

3 on the screen there, CPC can only be used in 

4 formulation with propylene glycol per FDA 

5 requirements. And so that would be listed. If 

6 it were to pass and be added, that is how it would 

7 be annotated so that propylene glycol would be 

8 allowed in the formulation. Is that all clear?

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think so. So no 

10 vote keeps it from being added to the list. A no 

11 vote kills it.

12 MS. SMITH: Correct. Just wanted to 

13 make sure that the annotation part was clear as 

14 well. Okay.

15 MR. TURNER: I guess the point I want 

16 to -- I guess you're right about that, Nate. I 

17 just want to make sure that it's clear that in no 

18 context, even if there were a yes, even if it 

19 passed, there's no way this material could be used 

20 at all without propylene glycol in the formulation, 

21 which adds another layer to its listing. With --

22 and another way, if it was -- I'm not saying that 
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1 right. I'm not saying that -- are you following 

2 me?

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: I am. Yes. I was 

4 just quietly looking at the comments because that 

5 was -- that confusion was voiced as well.

6 MR. TURNER: Oh. It was. I didn't 

7 know.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes. I think we're 

9 landing right. Does anyone else have any 

10 questions about this annotation? Are we tracking 

11 together, that we're talking about CPC with the 

12 propylene glycol as the only space in which it could 

13 exist? And then we're going to vote on, does it 

14 exist on our National List at all?

15 MS. SMITH: And our understanding was 

16 that, like, it was required to be formulated by 

17 FDA with the use of propylene glycol. So they're 

18 like a package deal.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes.

20 MS. SMITH: Okay. I'm going to move 

21 to the vote.

22 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right.
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1 MS. SMITH: All right. So first we'll 

2 take the -- wait a minute. I got to get my 

3 spreadsheet up. I'm, like, doing this in the 

4 secretary thing, so --

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Totally good. And 

6 I can track with you for that. If you and I could 

7 -- and I can switch roles with you for a second 

8 to take notes.

9 MS. JEFFERY: I got it.

10 MS. SMITH: My handy dandy spreadsheet 

11 does most of the work for me, so I just wanted to 

12 make sure I was up and ready, but thanks for the 

13 backups.

14 Okay. So classification motion first. 

15 And the motion -- or the voting will start with 

16 Brian.

17 And so the motion comes first and 

18 seconded out of subcommittee. The motion is to 

19 classify CPC --

20 Wood, can you say real name for me.

21 MR. TURNER: Cetylpyridinium 

22 chloride.
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1 MS. SMITH: Thank you.

2 -- CPC as a nonagricultural synthetic 

3 substance. It was motioned by Wood and seconded 

4 by Kyla Smith, myself. And the vote starts with 

5 Brian and I'll turn it to you, Nate, to call the 

6 vote.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Sure.

8 MS. SMITH: Oh. Wait. I'm sorry.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Go ahead.

10 MS. SMITH: Any further discussion?

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Hearing none. 

12 We'll move to the vote.

13 Brian, please go ahead.

14 MR. CALDWELL: Yes.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Jerry.

16 MR. D'AMORE: Yes.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Carolyn.

18 MS. DIMITRI: Yes.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Rick.

20 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Liz.

22 MS. GRAZNAK: Yes.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kim.

2 MS. HUSEMAN: Yes.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Mindee.

4 MS. JEFFERY: Yes.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Allison.

6 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Dilip.

8 MR. NANDWANI: Yes.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Logan.

10 MS. PETREY: Yes.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kyla.

12 MS. SMITH: Yes.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Wood.

14 MR. TURNER: Yes.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Javier.

16 MR. ZAMORA: Yes.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: And the chair votes 

18 yes.

19 MS. BRUCH: Nate, I also vote yes.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: I'm sorry. Did I 

21 totally skip you? Please forgive me.

22 MS. BRUCH: Don't go right around the 
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1 other side again.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Oh, yes. I'm sorry. 

3 Yes. You're at the top of --

4 MS. BRUCH: -- the pack.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: I won't make that 

6 mistake again. You made us look --

7 MS. BRUCH: No worries.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Amy.

9 MS. BRUCH: Yes.

10 MS. SMITH: Okay. So I have 15 yes, 

11 0 no, 0 abstentions, recusals, or absents. So the 

12 motion passes.

13 Okay. The second motion comes first 

14 and seconded out of a subcommittee. The motion 

15 is to add CPC with the following annotation. CPC 

16 can only be used in formulation with propylene 

17 glycol per FDA requirements. And it was motioned 

18 by Wood and seconded by myself. The voting will 

19 start with Jerry. But before that, any further 

20 discussion?

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Hearing none, we'll 

22 go to the vote.
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1 Jerry, please go ahead.

2 MR. D'AMORE: I vote no.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Carolyn.

4 MS. DIMITRI: I vote no, also.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Rick.

6 MR. GREENWOOD: No.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Liz.

8 MS. GRAZNAK: No.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kim.

10 MS. HUSEMAN: No.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Mindee.

12 MS. JEFFERY: No.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Allison.

14 MS. JOHNSON: No.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Dilip.

16 MR. NANDWANI: No.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Logan.

18 MS. PETREY: No.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kyla.

20 MS. SMITH: No.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Wood.

22 MR. TURNER: No for me.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: Javier.

2 MR. ZAMORA: No.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Amy.

4 MS. BRUCH: No.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Brian.

6 MR. CALDWELL: No.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: And the chair votes 

8 no.

9 MS. SMITH: Okay. I have 0 yes, 15 no, 

10 0 abstain, recuse, or absent. The motion fails.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right.

12 MS. SMITH: Okay. Switching gears. 

13 We are going to phosphoric acid and I will be 

14 presenting this.

15 So phosphoric acid was petitioned to 

16 expand annotation to also allow in addition to its 

17 current allowance of cleaning of food-contact 

18 surfaces and equipment, to be used as an acidifier 

19 to adjust pH of an extraction solvent to extract 

20 antioxidants or other target molecules from 

21 lamiaceae plants, provided the amount of acid shall 

22 -- used shall not exceed the minimum needed to lower 
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1 pH to 2.5. So we asked a few clarifying questions 

2 that you can see on the screen there, which we 

3 didn't really receive direct answers to in the 

4 public comment process.

5 Most public or most commenters felt 

6 like additional information such as the answers 

7 to those questions that we posed in the proposal 

8 were needed prior to being able to vote on this 

9 substance. We do appreciate all the feedback that 

10 was provided and we will take this back to 

11 subcommittee to do more work. So that is my 

12 recommendation, is to actually vote this back to 

13 subcommittee. But I'm happy to answer any 

14 questions.

15 Go ahead, Brian.

16 MR. CALDWELL: Kyla, I just had a 

17 question about this. First of all, just so 

18 everybody knows, the lamiaceae is the mint family, 

19 so that's, you know, that's the kind of plants that 

20 they're talking about. But I didn't see any 

21 explicit information as to how the extraction was 

22 going to actually, you know, what the process was 
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1 that involved the phosphoric acid to extract 

2 whatever they're extracting from these plants. 

3 So that's just -- to me, it was a little bit of 

4 a gap. And just to make sure any materials that 

5 are used in that extraction, like solvents or 

6 whatever, have to -- do they have to be on the 

7 National List in some way also? Or are they 

8 considered to be just not in -- well anyway, how 

9 is that handled, you know, the actual extraction 

10 process for this sort of thing?

11 MS. SMITH: Look at the --

12 MR. CALDWELL: They talked a lot about 

13 how phosphoric acid was extracted from the brew 

14 that produces phosphoric acid, but they didn't talk 

15 about how, say, you know, a sugar or a -- or some 

16 kind of organic acid, or something like that, would 

17 be extracted from the mint plants.

18 MS. SMITH: Yes. I think that that 

19 was, like, part of our struggle, yes, was fully 

20 understanding --

21 MR. CALDWELL: Yes.

22 MS. SMITH: Yes. The exact 
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1 functionality as well.

2 MR. CALDWELL: Very good. Thank you.

3 MS. SMITH: Any other questions?

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Hearing none, do you 

5 want to make a motion, Kyla, to send back?

6 MS. SMITH: Yes. So I will make the 

7 motion to send phosphoric acid annotation change 

8 proposal back to subcommittee.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: And do we have a 

10 second?

11 MS. JEFFERY: I'll second.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. So we 

13 have a motion to send back to subcommittee. And 

14 we're going to start the vote --

15 MS. SMITH: Nate.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes?

17 MS. SMITH: Sorry. Any further 

18 discussion just for -- process-wise?

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes.

20 MS. SMITH: Usually there's not but, 

21 you know.

22 MS. PETREY: I'm sorry, Nate, can you 
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1 verbalize who made that second I missed that.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes. So the motion 

3 was made by Kyla, seconded by Mindee.

4 And we'll start the voting to go back 

5 to subcommittee with Carolyn.

6 MS. DIMITRI: Yes. Let's send it 

7 back.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Rick.

9 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Liz.

11 MS. GRAZNAK: Yes.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kim

13 MS. HUSEMAN: Yes.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Mindee.

15 MS. JEFFERY: Yes.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: Allison.

17 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: Dilip.

19 MR. NANDWANI: Yes.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: Logan.

21 MS. PETREY: Yes.

22 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kyla.
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1 MS. SMITH: Yes.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Wood.

3 MR. TURNER: Yes.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Javier.

5 MR. ZAMORA: Yes.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Amy.

7 MS. BRUCH: Yes.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Brian.

9 MR. CALDWELL: Yes.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Jerry.

11 MR. D'AMORE: Yes.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: And the chair votes 

13 yes.

14 MS. SMITH: I have 15 yes, 0 no, 0 

15 abstain, recuse, or absent. The motion passes.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: Very good.

17 MS. SMITH: Okay that concludes the 

18 handling subcommittee report. And I will hand it 

19 back to you, Nate.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

21 you, Kyla. That was a lift. So thank you so much 

22 for your leadership and everyone's hard work. I 
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1 think watching those votes and watching this 

2 deliberation and collaboration is just a beautiful 

3 picture of how this board can work so effectively. 

4 And we're ahead of schedule. So please, 

5 everyone, pat yourselves on the back because that 

6 was a heavy lift and we did it really well.

7 So we are moving into lunch and we're 

8 about 14 minutes early. After lunch, we're going 

9 to be going to hear a report on the state of organic 

10 seed by Kristina Hubbard, followed by a report from 

11 Mat Ngouajio -- I apologize if I'm getting that 

12 wrong with NIFA. So we'll hear some interesting 

13 updates after lunch and then we'll move into the 

14 materials subcommittee. So I think if it's all 

15 right with everybody, we will just take these 13 

16 minutes to grab an extra bite. All right. So we 

17 will be back at the top of the hour, 2:00 p.m. 

18 Eastern Time. Nope. Sorry. It is 2:00 p.m. 

19 Eastern Time. Let me just -- this is why I don't 

20 try to do the time zones. Michelle, do you have 

21 a slide for -- it will just be the top of the hour, 

22 1 hour and 13 minutes from now.
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: They're working on 

2 adjusting the time for the slide, so --

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

4 you, everybody.

5 MS. ARSENAULT: Thanks, Nate. 

6 Thanks, everyone

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: See you all in a bit.

8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

9 went off the record at 1:47 p.m. and resumed at 

10 3:00 p.m.)

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Here we 

12 are. Welcome back, folks. Hope everyone had a 

13 good break. To get our afternoon kicked off, we're 

14 going to start with a presentation from Kristina 

15 Kiki Hubbard with the Organic Seed Alliance. And 

16 I always have to give a shout out to my fellow 

17 Montanans. So I'm really glad that Kiki can join 

18 us today, and we'll have what I hope to be a great 

19 discussion around certified organic seed.

20 So with that, I'll hand it over to you, 

21 Kiki.

22 MS. JEFFERY: Well, just kidding, 
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1 Wood, you're handing it over to Mindee to introduce 

2 Kiki.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Oh, I apologize. 

4 I'm handing over to Mindee.

5 MS. JEFFERY: And I just called you 

6 Wood --

7 MR. TURNER: And you just called Nate 

8 Wood, you can call Nate me. Yes.

9 MS. JEFFERY: -- so it's even better. 

10 What's your name?

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Take it out. So 

12 please proceed.

13 MS. JEFFERY: Kiki Hubbard is the 

14 director of advocacy and communications for the 

15 Organic Seed Alliance. Her work on seed policy 

16 spans 20 years in the areas of antitrust, 

17 biotechnology, consolidation, intellectual 

18 property, and organic regulation. Growing up in 

19 Wisconsin and working on an organic farm piqued 

20 her interest in sustainable agriculture and 

21 environmental justice. She went on to pursue 

22 related law and policy issues in Washington DC 
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1 before moving to Montana to complete an MS in 

2 Environmental Studies. Kiki now leads OSA's 

3 federal policy work and manages the State of 

4 Organic Seed project, where she has co-authored 

5 all three SOS reports, spanning 15 years. She 

6 lives in Missoula with her family in a very generous 

7 garden. Thank you so much for all your work, Kiki, 

8 I really look forward to your presentation.

9 MS. HUBBARD: Thanks so much, Mindee. 

10 Let me share my screen here -- I'll save mine too. 

11 All right. Thanks. I'll give you a second. Oh, 

12 here we go. I think I've done this enough times. 

13 All right. Can everyone see it okay?

14 Thank you again, Mindee, for the 

15 introduction. And I feel really honored to be a 

16 part of a meeting to share findings from our State 

17 of Organic Seed report. So thanks to the National 

18 Organic Program and the NOSB for inviting Organic 

19 Seed Alliance to be on the spring agenda. We don't 

20 have a lot of time today so I'm going to jump right 

21 into it.

22 But first I just want to share that, 
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1 for those of you who aren't familiar with Organic 

2 Seed Alliance, we are a mission driven organization 

3 that works nationally to ensure that growers have 

4 access to the organic seed they need to be 

5 successful. And we do this through research, 

6 education, and advocacy. I want to quickly also 

7 mention that my co-worker, Jared Zystro, who is 

8 also a co-author at State of Organic Seed is joining 

9 us today and available to answer questions in the 

10 chat and provide other information during my 

11 presentation. So shout out and thanks to Jared 

12 for joining us today. Oops. Excuse me.

13 So State of Organic Seed is how Organic 

14 Seed Alliance monitors the status of organic seed 

15 systems in the United States. And by status, I 

16 mean everything from how much organic seed organic 

17 growers are using, to barriers to sourcing organic 

18 seed, as well as how the organic seed regulation 

19 is being enforced, and how many public resource 

20 dollars are going toward much needed organic plant 

21 breeding and other organic seed research 

22 initiatives.
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1 So every five years, we release this 

2 progress report to answer these and many other 

3 questions to help us understand these trends. And 

4 to also publish recommendations that serve as an 

5 action plan for increasing the organic seed supply, 

6 while also fostering seed-growing networks, and 

7 policies that aim to decentralize ownership in our 

8 seed systems. We know that the dominant 

9 conventional seed trade, which is highly 

10 consolidated and privatized, is not providing the 

11 seed that organic growers need to be successful. 

12 And we also know that the benefits of expanding 

13 organic seed, both in the field and marketplace, 

14 go well beyond simply helping organic producers 

15 meet a regulatory requirement.

16 We believe strongly that the other 

17 benefits include ensuring that organic growers 

18 have access to organically bred varieties that are 

19 especially well adapted to organic production 

20 systems and practices, and that are resilient in 

21 the face of our changing climate. We know that 

22 this will help organic growers be more successful 
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1 when they have plant genetics that are best suited 

2 to their operation. We also know that the benefits 

3 of expanding certified organic production allows 

4 to enjoy the broader benefits of simply expanding 

5 organic agriculture more broadly, including having 

6 fewer synthetic chemical inputs on our food and 

7 in our landscape, thus benefiting the environment 

8 and human health as well.

9 Our most recent report is our third 

10 update. We now have 15 years worth of data to help 

11 us understand organic seed trends. Again, trends 

12 in organic seed sourcing, organic research 

13 investments, and much more. And our most recent 

14 report includes more data than we have ever 

15 collected before. And I'll give you a snapshot 

16 of some of these methods and the data that we 

17 collected in order to put together our findings 

18 and recommendations.

19 First we conducted a national survey 

20 of organic producers in partnership with Organic 

21 Farming Research Foundation. And these findings 

22 informed OFRF's national organic research agenda 
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1 which I strongly encourage you to check out. And 

2 then the seed related questions informed our State 

3 of Organic Seed report. We also conducted an 

4 in-depth survey of organic seed producers, as well 

5 as organic seed companies to better understand 

6 their challenges in organic seed production, 

7 including how to scale up their production. And 

8 we surveyed organic plant breeders in research, 

9 as well, to better understand their successes in 

10 their research programs as well as ongoing needs 

11 and challenges. We surveyed organic certifiers 

12 to better understand how they're enforcing the 

13 organic seed regulation and what tools and 

14 resources they needed to support their role as 

15 certifiers.

16 Some of the seed producers and 

17 companies that responded to our survey agreed to 

18 an in-depth interview with our team. We also 

19 compiled, as we do every five years, a database 

20 of public research investments going to organic 

21 plant breeding and other organic seed research. 

22 And then, finally, we pulled from our friends at 
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1 Organic Farming Research Foundation again, poll 

2 data from 16 focus groups that they hosted across 

3 the country that included more than 100 organic 

4 producers. So we have a lot of data.

5 What did we find? I'm going to start 

6 by giving you a few findings from our organic 

7 producers survey. Unfortunately, one of our main 

8 findings is that most organic producers still use 

9 nonorganic seed for at least part, if not all of 

10 their operation. As you see here in this graph, 

11 the percentage of producers using only organic 

12 seed, so 100 percent organic seed on their 

13 operation has remained stagnant since we started 

14 collecting this data, again, 15 years ago.

15 By crop type we see that organic seed 

16 sourcing has also remained generally stagnant 

17 across field crops, cover crops, and forge crops. 

18 Here you're looking at the percent of field crop 

19 acreage planted to organic seed. We actually saw 

20 a decrease in acreage planted to organic seed among 

21 field crop growers. The next graph here shows 

22 essentially, again, stagnation in forge crop 
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1 acreage planted to organic seed. And this last 

2 graph shows a similar trend in cover crop acreage.

3 Now one bright spot is that we found 

4 that vegetable producers who grow fewer than 50 

5 acres reported using more organic seed. So this 

6 was definitely, again, a bright spot in our data, 

7 an improvement in organic seed sourcing. And if 

8 you look at this graph, again, this represents 

9 vegetable acreage only, you also see that as 

10 acreage increases, organic seed usage decreases. 

11 And this is very much in line with our 2016 

12 findings. And it's important because we see that 

13 the largest producers are still using relatively 

14 little organic seed. And of course, this has a 

15 big impact on overall organic acreage planted to 

16 organic seed.

17 We also found that fewer producers 

18 report that their certifiers are encouraging that 

19 they take extra measures to source organic seed, 

20 such as going beyond free seed catalogs, conducting 

21 variety trials, or at times even contracting 

22 organic seed production ahead of the planting 
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1 season. What we found is a market decrease in 

2 organic producers reporting that their certifier's 

3 requesting that they take greater steps to source 

4 organic seed.

5 When we first published State of 

6 Organic Seed in 2011, more than 60 percent of 

7 organic producers reported that their certifiers 

8 made these requests. Our most recent findings 

9 show that 35 percent of organic producers report 

10 that these requests are being made. And this is 

11 important because if we look at our data even more 

12 closely, we see that for those producers who report 

13 that their certifies request that they take extra 

14 steps to source organic seed, they respond 

15 accordingly, and report that they increased their 

16 organic seed sourcing. And this was true across 

17 crop types.

18 Not surprisingly, variety 

19 unavailability remains the top reason for not 

20 sourcing organic seed. More than 60 percent of 

21 respondents reported this as a significant factor. 

22 We saw an increase this time around in our data 
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1 in producers reporting that a processor or buyer 

2 requirement served as a significant factor in not 

3 sourcing organic seed. This time, we saw 30 

4 percent of organic producers responding to our 

5 survey saying that this was a significant factor.

6 We also found that fewer organic 

7 producers are saving and/or producing organic seed 

8 on their farm. In our last report more than 40 

9 percent of producers were conducting these 

10 practices and this decreased to 25 percent of 

11 respondents who say that they're either saving or 

12 producing seed on their farm. We're encouraged 

13 that 40 percent of organic producers responding, 

14 say that they're interested in producing organic 

15 seed commercially. And this is important when we 

16 look at the fact that we need to grow the organic 

17 seed supply, we need to expand organic seed 

18 production here in the United States, and we need 

19 more skilled organic seed producers. So with 

20 training and adequate support, we hope that some 

21 of these producers within that 40 percent category 

22 can integrate organic seed production into their 
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1 operations, and in so doing expand the diversity 

2 of organic seed available and help fulfill organic 

3 seed supply gaps.

4 Much like we saw in 2016, organic 

5 producers understand that organic seed is 

6 important to organic integrity. Specifically, 

7 the vast majority of respondents believe that 

8 organic seed is important to the integrity of 

9 organic food, and that varieties bred for organic 

10 production will support their success, and that 

11 of the broader organic seed industry. Again, this 

12 was very much in line with our last report.

13 I'm going to shift over to our certifier 

14 survey and give you a snapshot of these findings 

15 as well. In 2020, we conducted a survey of 

16 accredited certified agencies and 22 of them 

17 responded. Collectively, we estimate that these 

18 certifiers represent more than 80 percent of 

19 certified organic farms in the United States. A 

20 few findings here include that only 16 percent of 

21 certifiers believe that organic producers are 

22 going beyond free catalogs or sources to find 
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1 organic seed. In the words of one certifier, they 

2 said, We need to constantly reinforce that the 

3 grower needs to do more work to locate or trial 

4 organic seed.

5 We also found that more than half the 

6 certifiers responding would like to see more 

7 certifier and inspector trainings, that it would 

8 be useful to their efforts. Eighty percent would 

9 like to see more educational materials and outreach 

10 to organic producers, especially in the way of 

11 organic seed availability. Eighty-four percent 

12 said that access to organic variety trial data is 

13 useful.

14 I want to point out here that a number 

15 of certifiers identified the need for a 

16 comprehensive organic seed database. A number of

17 these certifiers noted this in the comments of the 

18 survey without really even being prompted, and this 

19 stood out to us as an ongoing need for the organic 

20 community. We also found that our certifier 

21 surveyed data backed up a trend that we saw -- or 

22 a finding, I should say, from our organic producer 
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1 survey, where certifiers also reported that they 

2 perceived processor and buyer agreements with 

3 contracted organic growers to increasingly be 

4 serving as a barrier to sourcing organic seed.

5 I'm not going to go too deep unto our 

6 research investment data. Again, we collected a 

7 ton of data on public investments going toward 

8 organic plant breeding and other organic seed 

9 initiatives. We totaled these investments over 

10 the last five years alone to be about $40 million, 

11 which is very exciting. This is the largest 

12 investment we've seen that we've documented over 

13 a five-year span. Much of this funding, not 

14 surprisingly, is coming from USDA's Organic 

15 Research and Extension Initiative's competitive 

16 grant program, the OREI program. We are enjoying 

17 more dollars in that program thanks to the last 

18 farm bill.

19 I also want to take this moment to 

20 acknowledge that the State of Organic Seed report 

21 would not have been possible without the support 

22 of an OREI grant that was awarded to both Organic 
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1 Farming Research Foundation and Organic Seed 

2 Alliance, so that we collect this data and publish 

3 our respective reports. So I'm excited that Mat 

4 is here with us today from USDA, NIFA, and I just 

5 want to thank NIFA for -- publicly for the support. 

6 Again, the SOS report would not have been possible 

7 without this competitive grant program.

8 This report also wouldn't have been 

9 possible without the support of -- well, let me 

10 say this way. We were able to go well beyond the 

11 scope of our previous reports and collect much more 

12 data because of the support of a SARE grant as well, 

13 which was awarded to a PhD candidate, Liza Wood 

14 at UC Davis who is also a co-author this report. 

15 And I'm sharing this to not only publicly 

16 acknowledge the importance of the support, but also 

17 to underscore how important these competitive 

18 grant programs that fund organic research truly 

19 is to supporting the ongoing growth and success 

20 of organic seed systems here in the US.

21 This data, along with data from a number 

22 of our surveys, are available for the first time 
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1 to the public through an interactive website. 

2 Jared, maybe you could pop that link into the chat 

3 box. You can search our specific surveys by

4 region, by crop type, and a number of other 

5 categories. And we're really excited to be able 

6 to make this wealth of knowledge, this wealth of 

7 data much more accessible and searchable to the 

8 organic community this time around. So please 

9 check it out.

10 So here's the takeaway. We are 

11 thrilled to be celebrating the 20th anniversary 

12 of the National Organic Program. In the last two 

13 decades we have seen tremendous growth in the 

14 organic seed supply. We've seen increases in 

15 organic plant breeding and research funding. 

16 We've seen more resources and trainings to support 

17 organic certifiers in their role in enforcing the 

18 organic seed requirement. We've also seen a 

19 growing understanding, especially among organic 

20 producers themselves, an understanding of why 

21 organic seed is important, especially to the 

22 integrity of the organic label.
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1 And yet our data over the course of 

2 these years also shows no meaningful improvement 

3 in organic seed sourcing in the absence of 

4 regulatory changes. So I'm going to quickly wrap 

5 up by just highlighting a few recommendations as 

6 they pertain to regulators and certifiers. Not 

7 much is changing on its own as organic certifier's 

8 shared in our survey. So there may need to be a 

9 change in the regulations to move the issue 

10 forward. And we couldn't agree more.

11 I was very happy to hear Dr. Tucker 

12 share yesterday that the NOP will be re-evaluating 

13 organic seed as a rule making priority given the 

14 outpouring of public support to make it a priority. 

15 I think this really underscores that the organic 

16 community understands well that organic begins 

17 with the foundation of organic seed. So this is 

18 a top priority for us, that the organic seed 

19 regulations should be strengthened per the 2018 

20 NOSB recommendation. We also strongly support the 

21 2019 recommendation from the NOSB to strengthen 

22 the organic seed guidance document.
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1 And as our data showed we believe it's 

2 time for the NOSB and NOP to revisit and perhaps 

3 get creative on ways to hold organic buyers and 

4 processors more accountable to the organic seed 

5 regulation. We know this is more difficult for 

6 buyers and processors who aren't certified organic 

7 handlers. But many of these contracted buyers 

8 have their hands tied, and we need to ensure that 

9 buyers and processors are part of the solution to 

10 increasing organic seed usage across the board.

11 And finally, as I mentioned, a 

12 comprehensive organic seed database is still 

13 desperately wanted and needed. And finally, 

14 ongoing investments in certifier, inspector, and 

15 producer trainings, as well as outreach would also, 

16 of course, support more consistent enforcement of 

17 the organic seed regulation and support increased 

18 sourcing of organic seed. We were thrilled to 

19 support the development of the NOP's course on 

20 organic seed searches for the Integrity Learning 

21 Center, the ACA, the Accredited Certifiers 

22 Association as -- create best practices. And 
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1 we're trying to do our part by developing resources 

2 to help organic growers conduct organic variety 

3 trials and meet that organic seed regulation.

4 So with that, I'm going to open it up 

5 for questions. Thank you so much.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much for 

7 your presentation, Kiki, and your taking the time 

8 to be with us today.

9 We have a question from Javier.

10 MR. ZAMORA: Hi, Kiki. Thank you. 

11 Thank you so much for such a beautiful 

12 presentation, and very informative. Something 

13 that I dearly know because I live it every year. 

14 I mean, every time my certifier shows up and says, 

15 how do you go about searching for new organic seeds? 

16 And I always say, you know, three, four companies 

17 that I go with because -- but they don't -- because 

18 they -- that's what I have around.

19 And you mentioned a bunch of things that 

20 are really, really serious issue in the organic 

21 community. Number one, you said that the last 15 

22 years the usage of organic seed has stayed level, 
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1 but the amount producers that are growing organic 

2 food has increased -- I don't know how many times. 

3 So we have to think of numbers, numbers. Now, 

4 you said that there were -- that $40 million were 

5 invested in research for seed -- to produce organic 

6 seeds. What seeds are we -- is that a research 

7 going to?

8 Because organic producers, we have a 

9 really difficult issue finding organic seeds. And 

10 I can count with my fingers for a little larger 

11 scale -- I'm a mid-size grower, that I can find 

12 seeds in the amount that I need. Every single year 

13 I have issues. Last year it was green beans, and 

14 winter squash, we didn't have any. The year before 

15 was also, I guess it was delicata. But anyway, 

16 so I really believe that, yes, this Board needs 

17 to look into that just because the amount of organic 

18 crops has grown exponentially, but the amount of 

19 seed doesn't reflect that. Thank you.

20 MS. HUBBARD: Yes, Javier. Just 

21 quickly answer one of your questions. Of the 

22 research investments that we documented, that 
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1 about 40 million, about 80 percent of those 

2 investments are going toward projects focused on 

3 organic plant breeding and/or organic variety 

4 trials. So helping to collect data -- performance 

5 data on how organic varieties perform against 

6 conventional or equivalent varieties is one 

7 example.

8 In terms of understanding how much 

9 organic seed is out there, we know that you organic 

10 seed supply has grown since the program was 

11 implemented 20 years ago, simply by looking at the 

12 number of organic seed suppliers and the organic 

13 seed offerings, based on the data we collect from 

14 organic producers' perspectives, as well as 

15 organic certifiers' perspectives on how the 

16 marketplace has changed. But we desperately need 

17 a comprehensive listing of certified organic seed 

18 that's available and that's out there. We don't 

19 have that, and that will continue to be a barrier, 

20 I think, to making quicker progress on growing

21 organic seed systems generally.

22 MR. POWELL-PALM: Logan has a 
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1 question.

2 MS. PETREY: Thank you. Thank you, 

3 Kiki, for the presentation. And so this really 

4 isn't supposed to be a reason, you know, to look 

5 or not look for organic seed, but the financials 

6 of organic seed, I think, is important for farmers. 

7 And maybe the incentive of looking even harder 

8 and searching harder and all that, is that looked 

9 at in the research of, you know, at least trying 

10 to level that playing field. I mean, it obviously, 

11 is going to cost more, you know, to produce organic 

12 seed with potentially lower yields, you know. So 

13 I would imagine it is going to be a hurdle on that.

14 But I can imagine that for farmers, you 

15 know, if they do the following procedures their 

16 -- the incentive is, you know, stop there, than 

17 going after just so they can pay more for 

18 potentially a lesser producing variety or 

19 something. So, you know, in the grand scheme of 

20 things, it really can affect the farmer, looking 

21 at that side.

22 MS. HUBBARD: It absolute can, Logan. 
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1 Thanks for your question. And of course, organic 

2 seed isn't always lower yielding, you know, as 

3 conventional seed, as I think you implied, which 

4 is one of the reasons why this -- these research 

5 investments are so important in terms of 

6 performance data and breeding to adapt these crop 

7 genetics to organic farming systems. In our 2016 

8 report we did provide a snapshot of the price 

9 differences between conventional and organic seed. 

10 It widely varied. It was far from consistent.

11 We know that it's more costly to produce 

12 organic seed. And this is -- well, let me also 

13 say that we do ask about price being a factor in 

14 our survey of organic farmers, even though it's 

15 not an allowable reason, as we know. My 

16 understanding, and Jared correct me if you want 

17 to in the chat box, is that this is less of a factor 

18 than it used to be -- the price of seed. And as 

19 we expand our capacity of organic seed production 

20 and offerings, I do believe that price point will 

21 come down

22 One challenge, of course, in growing 
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1 the organic seed supply is that these organic 

2 suppliers, these companies who at times have their 

3 own organic plant breeding programs, they are 

4 taking a financial risk to produce a product that 

5 isn't required fully to be used, given the non --

6 given the exemption to use nonorganic seed. And 

7 unfortunately what we're seeing as we document a 

8 lack of progress in organic seed sourcing among 

9 organic producers, is that we're actually seeing 

10 some of these organic plant breeding and seed 

11 production programs closing. Because it's no 

12 longer financially feasible for them to continue 

13 to take that risk. And they are losing hope that 

14 there will be changes in organic seed usage among 

15 organic growers.

16 And so we are in -- we're at a critical 

17 juncture, in my view, to make sure that we are 

18 moving a number of solutions forward 

19 simultaneously. And again, as I said before, I 

20 think mandating continuous improvement in the form 

21 of regulation will go a long way to provide 

22 confidence to the organic seed production 
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1 companies that we're committed as a community to 

2 supporting organic growers and enforcing the 

3 organic seed requirement.

4 MS. PETREY: Thank you. And when I was 

5 stating yield, I didn't mean that a -- on the 

6 farmer's side, I meant on the seed person's side. 

7 I can imagine that there's barriers producing that 

8 yield the same as conventional seed yield methods.

9 MS. HUBBARD: Yes. Actually I want to 

10 respond to that just quickly, in that only 5 percent 

11 of these research dollars have gone toward research 

12 projects that support our understanding organic 

13 seed production, meaning addressing challenges 

14 organic seed producers face in being successful 

15 with those seed crops. And so our in-depth survey 

16 this time around will hopefully inform future 

17 competitive grant programs in this regard. 

18 Because we are doing a pretty darn good job of 

19 funding organic plant breeding projects. Of 

20 course, there's more interest than we have money 

21 for even those projects. But we really need to 

22 turn more attention toward the needs of organic 
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1 seed producers because they face a number of 

2 challenges, both production challenges, as well 

3 as non-production challenges, that could certainly 

4 be addressed through research.

5 MS. PETREY: Thank you.

6 MS. HUBBARD: Yes.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Wood has a question 

8 for you?

9 MR. TURNER: Great presentation, Kiki. 

10 Thanks so much for being with us today. You know, 

11 every slide you presented, I felt like, boy, I wish 

12 we had more time because every slide I sort of have 

13 a root cause question, like, why is that, why is 

14 that. Like, there's five whys every time I saw 

15 one of your slides. And so I want to ask you all 

16 those questions if we can have a different 

17 conversation another time.

18 But I'm curious about whether any of 

19 the research is going into what I would say is sort 

20 of capacity building in the grower community. I'm 

21 really surprised that there's not more seed saving 

22 happening in -- among our organic growers. And 
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1 it goes a little bit to Logan's question -- I'm 

2 so bold, it may be unrelated in her mind, but I 

3 -- to me the cost to growers to buy seed year over 

4 year would sort of -- well, to me would suggest 

5 that there's a better investment to be made on the 

6 growers' side and really understanding how to 

7 collect seed, how to manage seed, how to deal with 

8 that kind of continued propagation.

9 And maybe I'm just completely out in 

10 left field on his question, but I'm curious. I 

11 was surprised -- I'm surprised to think that we're 

12 still functioning in -- we have to function in an 

13 expensive market for growers for seed. And if 

14 that's part of the problem versus better management 

15 of seed and building capacity, even for small --

16 smaller growers even to understand how to collect 

17 seed and manage seed and sort of keep it in 

18 circulation. So I'm wondering if you could speak 

19 to that at all?

20 MS. HUBBARD: Yes. That's great 

21 question, Wood, and it's a nice follow up from my 

22 previous answer where the challenges reported by 
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1 organic seed producers -- these are also producers 

2 who have their own small to mid-scale enterprises 

3 of their own, seed companies, and capacity rose 

4 to the top. I mean, many of these producers want 

5 to scale up but they don't have the capital or 

6 appropriate equipment. They don't have data on 

7 what the yields will be for particular seed crops 

8 so that they can plan accordingly, economically.

9 Organic Seed Alliance has done a number 

10 of trainings and provided a number of resources 

11 to support these growers in a number of ways, but 

12 we need an influx of investments, in my view, to 

13 build the capacity that you just articulated. 

14 It's desired, it's needed, and we have so far only 

15 essentially supported that capacity building 

16 through smaller grants, which truly have been 

17 helpful. In fact, at times those smaller grants 

18 are what a lot of these seed producers want and 

19 need simply to purchase a piece of equipment to 

20 help them clean their seed. So I don't know if 

21 that's a adequate answer, but there -- this is 

22 discussed more fully in the report, so I encourage 
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1 you to check it out.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Please go ahead, 

3 Amy.

4 MS. BRUCH: Yes. Sure. Thank you, 

5 Nate.

6 Kiki, thank you so much for your 

7 presentation. I just wanted to let you know. I

8 actually I'm an organic seed producer and I'd love 

9 to have some additional conversations with you. 

10 But I grow seedcorn, and how that worked is, I 

11 just had a lot of conversations with some of the 

12 seedcorn companies and said, hey, I have an ability 

13 to produce organic seedcorn for you. So it is a 

14 lot more management, however -- and I think that's 

15 the conversation farmers really need to have, is 

16 there needs to be an agreement in terms of 

17 contractual, to minimize some of the risks that 

18 a farmer takes on to produce these seeds, and really 

19 have that negotiation take place.

20 But as a farmer point of view, it's an 

21 additional revenue stream that's a little bit more 

22 insulated, and can be more insulated, than the 
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1 normal production outlets that we have for our 

2 crop. So it really can be a win-win, but it does 

3 kind of start with a conversation. And corn is 

4 different because that needs to be cross 

5 pollinated, female and male seeds need to be 

6 planted. However, some of the other crops that 

7 really Wood was indicating, you know, saving seed, 

8 we're doing this in the Midwest. Organic 

9 producers are doing it more informally just because 

10 I do believe that price is a problem.

11 I mean, you might not think the retail 

12 price looks too much different than the 

13 conventional price. However, when you look at 

14 something that could be re-used again, let's take, 

15 for instance, wheat or oats, the value of those 

16 products when we take them to market are pretty 

17 low compared to what I would need to turn around 

18 and buy them on the shelf for seed. We're talking 

19 maybe four, five, six times different. So that 

20 price is crazy because it's kind of like the saying 

21 that farmers, you know, they purchase retail and 

22 sell in wholesale and pay the freight both ways.
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1 You know, there's an opportunity really 

2 here for a farmer to have some additional revenue 

3 streams to really optimize their input cost just 

4 by, you know, internalizing some of the cleaning. 

5 The cleaning should not add four to five times 

6 extra on these seeds that are just being re-run 

7 by industry. So I really think this is a huge 

8 opportunity and I do think it starts with industry 

9 first. Us farmers, we're raring to go to be able 

10 to circulate more seeds in this environment for 

11 our fellow farmers.

12 MS. HUBBARD: Thanks for sharing that, 

13 Amy. I would love to chat with you again at another 

14 time, but bravo for being engaged in organic 

15 seedcorn production. I agree that it can help the 

16 price point and can provide that added income to 

17 especially diversified operations. We recently 

18 published an economic tool kit for seed producers 

19 if anyone's interested in learning more about the 

20 economics of seed production and how that might 

21 work on your farm. So I'll just slide back 

22 quickly. Thank you.
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1 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Kiki.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Amy.

3 Allison, please go ahead.

4 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you so much, Kiki, 

5 and for the additional information in the chat too. 

6 This is such a service to the sector and it is 

7 really helpful for making our discussion more 

8 concrete, I think. The piece that I found most 

9 surprising is that buyers are playing such a big 

10 role in driving seed decisions, and as we're 

11 talking here my wheels are spinning around, 

12 consolidation in seed and inputs and now, like, 

13 how do buyers fit into that? So I'm curious if 

14 you have any more information about who or what 

15 types of buyers are setting these requirements for 

16 producers. And, you know, the most nefarious 

17 scenario that comes to mind is a buyer knowing that 

18 a variety is produced only conventionally and could 

19 never be found organically, and selecting it for 

20 that reason to keep costs down, or because of some 

21 sort of relationship with a supplier of seed and 

22 inputs. So I'm curious if you have any more kind 
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1 of granularity or information to shed on that 

2 piece.

3 MS. HUBBARD: A great question. Thank 

4 you so much, Allison. We don't collect names of 

5 buyers or processors. I'll say that first and 

6 foremost. My understanding is that -- how this 

7 works, is that the buyer or processor is dictating 

8 that a variety be sourced. And too often that 

9 variety isn't available in a certified organic 

10 form. And oftentimes quantity is an issue because 

11 it's often these larger scale producers who are 

12 under contract with these buyers. And other times 

13 they are providing the seed directly to their 

14 growers.

15 Now, I believe that there could 

16 generally just not be an appropriate variety 

17 available in a certified organic form. However, 

18 the process shouldn't start -- stop there. There 

19 is an opportunity for these companies, for these 

20 buyers and processors, to contract organic seed 

21 production well in advance of planting season, and 

22 contract that directly with organic seed producing 
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1 companies that can offer that variety in a 

2 certified organic form, or can demonstrate an 

3 equivalent variety that will do just as well, if 

4 not better. And so, yes, I just want to underscore 

5 your question on this point that I think this is 

6 a real opportunity for making more progress in 

7 increasing the amount of organic seed that is 

8 planted to organic acres. I hope that's helpful.

9 MS. JOHNSON: Yes. Thank you.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for the 

11 question, Allison.

12 Kyla, please go ahead.

13 MS. SMITH: Kiki, thank you for the 

14 presentation. I know we've -- oh, sorry. I want 

15 to put my hand down, and then I put it back up.

16 I know we've talked seed many times over 

17 the years. So again, I appreciate the continuing 

18 conversation. I have a couple of questions and 

19 comments, so hopefully I don't go too long. But 

20 number one, I just wanted to say that the additional 

21 resources with the ACA best practices and the 

22 training session in the learning center are super 
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1 helpful for certifiers. And hopefully they allow 

2 certifiers to gain more confidence in making 

3 compliance related decisions. So I -- you know, 

4 more tools is good for sure, and those I -- you 

5 know, I believe the learning center course is, 

6 like, sort of newish. So anyway, hopefully more 

7 people are watching that and find it helpful.

8 I think that for certifiers to, like 

9 -- just with the evolution of certification that 

10 sometimes we really come up with a data management 

11 and data -- like Jenny was talking about, data 

12 harmonization problem, and so a lot of this data, 

13 like, lives in, like, paper OSPs. And, like, over 

14 the years, like, we are -- certifiers are, like, 

15 getting more into technology and databases where, 

16 like, we will be better equipped to track seed usage 

17 over time. So I know that, like, that's been a 

18 struggle that PCO has had is, like, oh, we want 

19 all this data, and certifiers have all this data, 

20 and it's just a matter of getting it off of paper 

21 and into something else that is recordable, and 

22 trackable, and something that we can monitor. And 
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1 it's not something that is not possible, it's just, 

2 you know, it takes time.

3 Sorry. These are just some comments. 

4 I promise I have some questions.

5 You mentioned that about really wanting 

6 a -- or a, you know, people are talking about a 

7 comprehensive list of seed -- certified organic 

8 seed. And so I'm wondering that, you know, we have 

9 the Organic Integrity Database, and so it doesn't 

10 seem like that's currently an effective tool. But 

11 could it be, like, is there -- does it just need 

12 to be updated more frequently, or is there -- is 

13 it -- is there stuff -- is there a certain data 

14 that's missing from there that doesn't make it 

15 effective? Could that be a place where we could 

16 capture organic seed?

17 MS. HUBBARD: You're talking about the 

18 Organic Integrity -- like, the USDA's, right?

19 MS. SMITH: Yes.

20 MS. HUBBARD: Get it. So would that 

21 database provide, though, specific varieties that 

22 are available? Are you thinking about the fact 
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1 just that it documents organic seed producers? 

2 I guess I'm a little confused as to what you 

3 perceive it to already provide to certifiers.

4 MS. SMITH: Yes. I mean, it does list 

5 certified organic operations and the products, or 

6 crops that they produce. And so if someone is 

7 producing, you know, Amy produces seedcorn, right? 

8 So, like, on her products list it should say 

9 seedcorn. I don't know. I think it's -- I think 

10 this is part of something where maybe there is some 

11 additional, you know, data harmonization, in that 

12 certifiers don't all use taxonomies in the same 

13 way. And so maybe -- anyway. And so I don't know. 

14 Maybe it's not an effective place, but maybe it 

15 could be if we included varieties, for example, 

16 or, you know, things like that.

17 MS. HUBBARD: Absolutely. There's 

18 certainly potential for that, Kyla. And now, you 

19 know, you're getting my brain churning here. I'll 

20 first say that there could be improvements in the 

21 documentation of seed crops. There could be 

22 changes in that regard that would help out 
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1 organizations like ours in collecting data to begin 

2 with. It was difficult to know, when we did an 

3 organic seed producer survey, who really was a seed 

4 producer. So I'm just going to, like, name that 

5 and put it on the shelf over there.

6 But certainly, if there's an 

7 opportunity to collaborate with the Program on 

8 providing some type of a list using existing data 

9 and then expanding off of it, I think that would 

10 be huge. And maybe that's one next step that's 

11 worth exploring. Unfortunately, the current 

12 listing databases that exist have not proven to 

13 be reliable in the way of consistently being 

14 updated, and we need a reliable tool. And so I'll 

15 just stop there and say, I would love to explore 

16 that.

17 MS. SMITH: I mean, I think that that 

18 will be an ongoing and continued problem with OID 

19 as well. And I know that, like, you know, that 

20 is something that the Program is constantly, like, 

21 working on with certifiers is more data reporting. 

22 And I understand that there will be some 
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1 additional requirements when SOE comes out. So 

2 maybe this will exert towards, you know, more 

3 frequent updating.

4 I have one more question if that's okay, 

5 Nate.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Please go ahead. 

7 Yes.

8 MS. SMITH: My other question is, in 

9 the learning center course, there was a suggestion 

10 where -- because oftentimes, you know, a grower 

11 will -- our experience will be, that a grower will 

12 be, like, I requested organic seed, and then it 

13 showed up and it wasn't organic, right? And so 

14 there was, like, the suggestion, well just, like, 

15 order earlier. But if everybody just orders 

16 earlier then someone's going to be left without 

17 organic seed, right? And so I don't know if it's 

18 just, like, better communication or something 

19 between the seed supplier to be like, hey, we don't 

20 have that, like, look elsewhere, so that they know 

21 earlier on. So maybe it's, like, earlier on plus 

22 better communication or something. I don't know. 
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1 I'm just -- was trying to, like, follow that, like, 

2 thread when I watched that course. And I was 

3 having trouble about, like, well, I don't know if 

4 that's effective all the time.

5 MS. HUBBARD: Yes. I agree with you 

6 -- with what you just said. To that point though, 

7 I think we could find some ways to create feedback 

8 loops so that organic companies and organic 

9 producers more broadly, know what the organic seed 

10 supply gaps are. And you know, create a system, 

11 again, for -- to improve that communication and 

12 identify the needs. We hear from organic seed 

13 companies who say, hey, should we just send our 

14 list to the certifiers so they know that we're here, 

15 that we have these varieties? And so they are --

16 and then, they also communicate, we could produce 

17 this organically but we don't know if we should. 

18 And so there is this hunger for those 

19 communication channels and for those feedback 

20 loops. So we should definitely explore those as 

21 part of the solution.

22 MS. SMITH: Yes. Send the list. 
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1 Because when we issue non-compliances, we issue 

2 -- we have a guidance sheet that's like, hey, you 

3 didn't, you know, do your seed search adequately, 

4 or enough, whatever -- whatever the violation is, 

5 and we have a list that we've sort of put together 

6 of seed companies. But, you know, keeping that 

7 updated all the time is challenging, and so I do 

8 think, yes, being able to provide that out would

9 be helpful. So, yes, send the list.

10 MS. HUBBARD: Thanks, Kyla.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Dilip, please go 

12 ahead.

13 MR. NANDWANI: Hello, Kiki. This is 

14 Dilip. I'm a new board member, so just bear with 

15 me.

16 MS. HUBBARD: Welcome.

17 MR. NANDWANI: Thank you. Just a 

18 quick comment and a simple question follow-up from 

19 my fellow board members they have asked you. So 

20 first, I'd like to say that it's a nicely presented, 

21 a lot of good information in your presentation. 

22 And also I wanted to say that my students, they 
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1 have attended your OSA conferences since 2015 from 

2 Tennessee State University if you recall it in 2016 

3 and '17.

4 MS. HUBBARD: Great.

5 MR. NANDWANI: Okay. So my quick 

6 comment is that, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, 

7 the organic seeds availability since 2001 -- I 

8 believe that organic seeds rule came in 2002 or 

9 around that time. And from that, almost 20 -- a 

10 little bit over 20 years, I would say at least 20 

11 years, organic seed wealth has come long way. 

12 Because at that time there were barely any organic 

13 seeds were available and maybe not at all, or maybe 

14 fewer crops. And in 20 years we have organic seeds 

15 in, I don't know exactly, but a lot of, like, 

16 vegetables, fruits, and medicinals, and almost all 

17 crops -- if I say correctly, but there is still 

18 a lot work needs to be done. But in 20 years OSA 

19 and other organic seed companies and researchers 

20 the work they have done, I really like to applaud 

21 that. The organic producers, they are in much, 

22 much good shape now and better place. That's just 
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1 my initial comment.

2 My fairly simple question like Wood and 

3 Amy, they asked you about the seed saving, you know 

4 -- the issue. So my question is that if -- or you 

5 or maybe other, they may have answers for this 

6 question. The organic seeds if they plant -- or 

7 our producers, if they plant and to save seeds; 

8 the next generation seeds, do you think will 

9 produce the same results, like, in terms of yield, 

10 vigor, growth, or maybe resistance to insect pests 

11 and diseases because these seeds are hybrid or open 

12 pollinated? So I don't know if you have done any 

13 research, any reports you have, or from any other 

14 seed companies, or anyone has done, you know. So 

15 that's all. Thank you.

16 MS. HUBBARD: Yes. I mean, maybe as 

17 you were starting to say, Dilip, if it's a hybrid, 

18 probably not. It's not going to grow true to type 

19 again, unless it's open pollinated. There -- so 

20 that's my quick answer. And Jared, our cagey plant 

21 breeder can weigh into in the chat box. I -- it's 

22 important to note though, as you you probably know, 
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1 growing seed takes a different knowledge base and 

2 skill set, than growing, you know, just a food crop 

3 -- an edible crop. And so we have -- there's a 

4 lot of education and training needed to support 

5 organic producers who are interested in doing more 

6 seed saving, and organic seed production because 

7 it's often not as simple as just saving that seed. 

8 There's a lot of decision-making and selection 

9 that often goes into it, at least for certain crop 

10 types. And so this is an opportunity, and again, 

11 a real need.

12 I would also be remiss in not mentioning 

13 that there's also the challenge to supporting 

14 organic producers to be more independent with 

15 organic seed supply, in the way of intellectual 

16 property rights that too often restricts seed 

17 saving, or production, or even research. And so 

18 that's another challenge that organic producers 

19 face. I will quickly flag that we're going to be 

20 publishing a resource on intellectual property 

21 rights for organic seed producers and independent 

22 plant breeders later this year to help them 
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1 understand the nuances of those issues and 

2 concerns, and provide more guidance so that it 

3 doesn't serve as a barrier.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

5 Great question, Dilip.

6 I have a couple of questions. I'm 

7 going to try to keep it brief and then hand it back 

8 to Amy.

9 When we say organic seed production or 

10 seed development, I think there are -- there seems 

11 to be kind of two things in one bucket here. I'm 

12 an organic seed producer as well. I produce 

13 organic certified yellow pea seed, certified seed 

14 that is also certified organic, and flax seed. 

15 And it's very easy. I get conventional registered 

16 seed. I grow it out as organic. It goes into the 

17 marketplace as certified organic certified seed.

18 In looking at that, I think that seems 

19 to be something that you're sort of hinting at, 

20 Kiki, is that supporting that, just the expansion 

21 of production of certified organic certified seed 

22 is one bucket, and something that we can expand 
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1 upon an offer resources to. The other side of 

2 actually developing seed under organic plant 

3 breeding methods, I guess, could you talk a little 

4 bit about the difference between those two, and 

5 where you think we should be really focusing our 

6 time and resources on advocating for, because they 

7 seem to somewhat different.

8 MS. HUBBARD: Great articulation of 

9 the difference, Nate. Like you're saying, we need 

10 both and in between the organic plant breeding 

11 investments and taking conventional seed and 

12 producing it organically, as well as certified 

13 seed, that's where the important role of variety 

14 trials and ongoing and additional research plays 

15 in to identify which crops will do well in an 

16 organic operation under organic conditions and in 

17 what region. Sometimes you can simply find a 

18 conventional variety that immediately seems to 

19 perform just as well in organic as a conventional 

20 system. But there is growing research that shows 

21 that often times that's not the case.

22 And so that's why that research to 
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1 identify which varieties are even worth growing 

2 out under organic production systems. And if 

3 they're not optimal in organic production systems, 

4 would it be easy to select for certain traits and 

5 adapt them to those systems? What would that crop 

6 improvement project look like? What would it 

7 cost? And then the organic plant breeding 

8 projects, ideally, are not only helping us to 

9 identify which of those varieties do well under 

10 organic conditions, but also, actually doing plant 

11 breeding projects, developing new varieties that 

12 will do especially well under organic conditions. 

13 So while we need them all -- we need them all and 

14 they're all important and they all fit together 

15 to some extent.

16 And yes, again, we are so thrilled to 

17 see more investments from OREI and other programs 

18 in this type of research. But we certainly need 

19 more, especially when you see how those organic 

20 research investments pale in comparison to the 

21 research investments going toward conventional 

22 agriculture research and projects that don't 
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1 benefit organic producers. Oftentimes the 

2 research going toward organic production systems 

3 also benefits conventional growers. So I'll just 

4 stop there.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. That's 

6 really helpful, I appreciate that.

7 Amy, please go ahead.

8 MS. BRUCH: Thank you, Kiki, again. 

9 Just one question/comment. Question would be, 

10 when you are -- when these tests are being 

11 conducted, looking at organic production, on these 

12 seeds and their fit, is the condition of the soil 

13 and the -- just the balance of nutrients, is that 

14 one of the attributes that's being considered? 

15 Because I do know in a lot of conventional testing 

16 when they're doing these seed trials it's, this 

17 one performs, this one doesn't, and the rest of 

18 the story with a deficiency in the soil maybe isn't 

19 necessarily brought to light. And that, as an 

20 organic producer, I'm always trying to promote, 

21 you know, that it's our ability to grow, manage 

22 our soil, manage below ground is then what is 
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1 evident above ground. And for me in my operation, 

2 I haven't necessarily found that seed is a limiting 

3 factor to my yields. It's -- there is this --

4 another deficiency that I have to address. So I 

5 was just, kind of, wondering how the testing works 

6 with just soil identification.

7 MS. HUBBARD: Yes. I can't speak to 

8 all the projects in our data set on that specific 

9 point, Amy, but what I can say is that I'm familiar 

10 with a number of organic plant breeding projects 

11 that are absolutely taking into account soil 

12 quality in their research decisions -- their 

13 selection decisions, the inputs they are providing 

14 to the soil, all in order to provide that 

15 information to other researchers as well as 

16 growers. But I guess I'll just stop there. This 

17 is -- I just don't have a lot to go by and this 

18 isn't my wheelhouse. But absolutely, some of 

19 these plant breeders are looking not only at soil 

20 quality, but the interactions between soil 

21 microorganisms and the plants as part of their 

22 organic plant breeding goals. It's pretty 
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1 fascinating, and I'd be happy to follow up with 

2 some specific projects if you'd like.

3 MS. BRUCH: Yes. Absolutely. Thank 

4 you.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Kiki. 

6 Thank you for taking all of those questions. That 

7 was wonderful. And I think --

8 MS. HUBBARD: My pleasure.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: As you can see, we're 

10 very interested. So many thanks today. I'm sure 

11 -- our members have your contact information, so 

12 I'm sure we'll be following up with additional 

13 questions. But thank you for taking the time and 

14 letting us run along with your time today. We 

15 appreciate it.

16 MS. HUBBARD: Thank you so much. It 

17 was truly an honor. My pleasure. Have a good 

18 meeting.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, and take 

20 care.

21 Next up. We have Mat with NIFA. And 

22 Carolyn, I think, is going to give an introduction.
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1 MS. DIMITRI: Yes.

2 Welcome, Mat. I will say, Dilip 

3 probably knows this, like, one of the happiest days 

4 in your life is when Mat actually picks up the phone 

5 and calls you because it means he is giving you 

6 good news. So Dr. Mat --

7 Oh, wait a minute. I'm practicing your 

8 name 100 times. I'm sorry.

9 -- Ngouajio --

10 I was doing it a lot better before I 

11 was online. Sorry.

12 -- is the National Science Liaison for 

13 Plant Systems and Organic Farming at the National 

14 Institute of Food and Agriculture, also known NIFA. 

15 Prior to this position he served as the national 

16 program leader from 2013 to 2019 in the Institute 

17 of Food Production and Sustainability, where he 

18 administered competitive grant programs, 

19 including the organic transitions and the Organic 

20 Agriculture Research and Extension Initiative, the 

21 O-R-E-I, and the Agriculture and Food Research 

22 Initiative, AFRI. Prior to joining NIFA, he was 
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1 professor in the Department of Horticulture at 

2 Michigan State University with a research and 

3 extension appointment. He is a fellow of the 

4 American Society for Horticultural Science and 

5 past president of the American Society for 

6 Horticultural Science. He represents NIFA 

7 primarily regarding programs related to plant 

8 systems, as well as organic farming. So in 

9 addition to all of these amazing things that Mat 

10 has done, he's also a wonderful colleague and 

11 collaborator to those of us who have been working 

12 in the field of organic research for many years.

13 So welcome, Mat. Nice to see you.

14 MR. NGOUAJIO: Thank you, Carolyn. 

15 Thank you so much.

16 And thank you, Michelle, for giving me 

17 the opportunity to present here today, and it is 

18 always a pleasure to come here and give you this 

19 update.

20 Now, like you said Caroline, I have 

21 being serving at NIFA for the last three years now 

22 since we moved to Kansas City as a national science 
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1 liaison, focusing more on plant systems, but more 

2 importantly on organic farming, and that's why I 

3 am here today. So I will see if I can share my 

4 screen here with you and give you a little bit of 

5 update. Before I get to that also, I would say 

6 thanks to Kiki for an excellent presentation. I 

7 really enjoy it. And thank also for acknowledging 

8 support from NIFA for some of the work that we have 

9 gone in the area of plant breeding.

10 Okay. Before I continue here, can you 

11 see my screen? Okay. I see. Perfect.

12 So we all know that we have made a lot 

13 of progress in term of advancing organic 

14 agriculture in the whole country. However, for 

15 us to sustain that type of investment, we need 

16 enough support from both the private sector and 

17 from government. And NIFA has had -- made some 

18 of -- seen some of the gaps and stimulate some 

19 cutting edge research to address some of the 

20 critical needs of the organic industry. But I just 

21 wanted also to let you know that most of our 

22 programs here at NIFA -- and thanks to the 
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1 initiative of many of you, we have include a 

2 language on organic agriculture on most of our 

3 programs. So even if the program is not specific 

4 to organic, they do actually accept organic 

5 agriculture research projects. And these include 

6 both capacity and competitive programs.

7 But on top of that, we have these two 

8 specific programs uniquely designed to address the 

9 need of the organic industry. One is the Organic 

10 Transitions that we usually refer to that as the 

11 O-R-G program, and our largest program, which is 

12 the Organic Agriculture Research and Extension 

13 Initiative, O-R-E-I. So those two programs cover 

14 all type of production systems, all the way from 

15 open fields to indoor controlled environment. 

16 They cover both animal and plant systems and they 

17 support project that will span the entire supply 

18 chain. So this is one of those very few program 

19 that would cover everything that you can think off 

20 in the area of organic agriculture.

21 So just to show those two program. The 

22 Organic Transition Program is our smallest 
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1 program. This year, 2022, we are receiving $7.5 

2 million for that program. And the focus of that 

3 is usually to address the need of those farmers 

4 that are adopting, or that are transitioning from 

5 conventional to organic production practices. 

6 It's a small program, but also the eligibility to 

7 submit proposal is limited to only colleges and 

8 universities.

9 The second program which is the largest 

10 one, OREI. This year we -- in 2022 we have 30 

11 million for that program. And the main focus there 

12 is to address the need of those people -- of those 

13 farmers in the industry that have already adopted 

14 the organic standards. And this is a very broad 

15 program. Like we always say, pretty much any 

16 citizen -- US citizen can apply for that program. 

17 So very broad eligibility.

18 And we usually ask, you know, what are 

19 the priorities of those two programs, and how do 

20 you separate the two of them? And as you can see 

21 on this graph, the two program kind of overlap 

22 significantly when it comes to issues like 
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1 production efficiency, when it comes to 

2 profitability, and to competitiveness of the 

3 organic industry. Those two -- we'll be 

4 addressing those key issues. However, to make 

5 sure that those two program are separate enough, 

6 again, for Congress to continue to give us support 

7 for those two, rather than just killing one and 

8 keeping one, we try to keep some of the priorities 

9 really separate.

10 For OREI we are focusing here on studies 

11 that focus on on-farm. A lot of emphasis on OREI 

12 is on on-farm studies. That is also where we are 

13 funding anything related to educational tools, all 

14 the post-harvest, most of the research on seed and 

15 breeding, IPM. We also include a curriculum 

16 development since the 2014 Farm Bill in this 

17 specific program.

18 On the other side, when we looked at 

19 the ORG, we tend to focus more on aspect like 

20 ecosystems services, you know, on soil quality, 

21 pollinator biodiversity, carbon sequestration, 

22 and all the work on modeling to better understand 
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1 the impact of organic production systems, we also 

2 tend to fund those through the Organic Transitions. 

3 And whenever we have any new National Organic 

4 Program priorities, lets say a case like 

5 antibiotics that were discontinued, or research 

6 on things like methionine, we tend to also put those 

7 in the organic transitions priorities. And if you 

8 look at our Request For Application, RFAs, you will

9 see more details there. And this is again, the 

10 type project that we fund with those two program.

11 For OREI, that's the biggest program, 

12 we have three different types of integrated 

13 projects. Integrated project are those that 

14 include research as a requirement, plus education, 

15 or extension, or all three component. That's why 

16 we call integrated project. We have the Tier 1 

17 project that can fund, you know, proposal up the 

18 $3 million a piece. The Tier 2 can fund up to 1.5, 

19 and Tier 3 project is up to 750,000. And we design 

20 all those different type based on input from our 

21 stakeholders. You know, they wanted to see 

22 smaller project for some of the institution that 
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1 were not very competitive. Because when 

2 everything was just one type of project, the most 

3 competitive institution tend to be the only one 

4 that were really successful.

5 We are -- since 2014, like I said, we 

6 have also included a proposal type called 

7 curriculum development because the industry also 

8 told us that they wanted to see more education, 

9 more students involved in organic agriculture. 

10 And we have been very successful but not to the 

11 point that we are happy. We would like to see more 

12 proposals submitted under that category to develop 

13 more new programs, certificate programs, or degree 

14 programs, focusing on organic agriculture. And 

15 this is one of the few program within NIFA where 

16 we continue to fund conference proposal, but more 

17 importantly, planning grants.

18 So a conference like this one or any 

19 other conference where people want to get together 

20 to talk about organic agriculture, design 

21 priorities, or share information with the 

22 industry, we can fund up to 50,000 which is pretty 
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1 good. And also, people can get together to start 

2 thinking about new ideas, forming teams and putting 

3 together proposals. So we can provide up to 50,000 

4 for those planning grants.

5 And the Organic Transition, we only 

6 have one type of project which is the standard 

7 project for up to 750,000. That is a small 

8 program, so we didn't want to cut it into so many 

9 small pieces. And as you all know, we all know 

10 the issues that the organic industry is facing a 

11 lot and they span the entire supply chain. So to 

12 address those issues, we really need a true 

13 partnership to identify what the issues are or what 

14 the most pressing issues are. And the NOSB, we 

15 see you as our key partner.

16 We usually think of our partner in two 

17 groups, some that we call stakeholders and some 

18 that we call partners that we work with, you know, 

19 to address the need of our industry. So we look 

20 at NOSB as being a partner that we work together 

21 with to address those needs. And we also use a 

22 lot of the farming language there. We use the 
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1 surveys like the one that Kiki was talking about. 

2 Every listening session that is organized by any 

3 of our partners or stakeholders, we use that --

4 we take that into account. And what do we do with 

5 that, is we listen to what our partners are telling 

6 us. They help us in those issue identifications. 

7 They help us set priorities, and they also help 

8 us work with both USDA and Congress. And the 

9 benefit of that is, they have secure support for 

10 this industry for funding for research, education, 

11 and extension.

12 And we have also been very lucky because 

13 your work was also well received by Congress. What 

14 this industry has done over time since we started 

15 with this program in 2004, Congress has really 

16 responded by really providing the support that NOSB 

17 and any other partner has asked. And you look at, 

18 starting next year, OREI alone, the budget will 

19 go to above 50 million. So that's a big win for 

20 the work that this industry has done.

21 Also, what do we do when we receive that 

22 type of support? So within NIFA, we listen to all 
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1 the input, we take all the input from industry and 

2 we translate that into what we call the Request 

3 For Applications. Then we make sure that we use 

4 a very strict panel review process to look at all 

5 the applications that we receive for our programs. 

6 And we only base our review on scientific merits. 

7 That's what we use for the selection of the project 

8 that we fund. And after selection of those 

9 projects, we also make sure we follow up with our 

10 applicant to make sure they are delivering what 

11 they promised to do.

12 Now, you will ask me if -- or every year 

13 you meet, you spend a lot of time, a lot of effort 

14 developing your own priorities for NOSB, what do 

15 we do with those priorities? I would just tell 

16 you that NOSB priorities become our priorities. 

17 So each year -- and thanks to Michelle and all 

18 the folks that keep us in the loop, once they'll 

19 get published, we take them and then they become 

20 also our priority. We include them in our RFAs, 

21 both the Organic Transitions and OREI program. 

22 We have been doing that for the last couple of 
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1 years. And it would be very difficult to take your 

2 priorities and try to go and narrow them down to 

3 one or two. So what we do is we put a direct link 

4 to all those priorities in our RFAs. The couple 

5 of the first years, it wasn't very easy because 

6 everything that we do, we have to justify it through 

7 the review process of our RFAs specially with our 

8 policy folks. So today, they can accept to put 

9 those links in those RFAs directly.

10 Now, what are the implications? Every 

11 single dollar that is appropriated for organic 

12 research, we want to make sure that that money is 

13 spent on organic agriculture and it is spent on 

14 the most important issues of that industry. We 

15 received a lot of projects where you can clearly 

16 tell that, you know, it was a conventional 

17 research. They just added the would organic just 

18 so that it could fit the program. So we want to 

19 make sure that all projects submitted to us are 

20 relevant to the industry. And how do we establish 

21 that relevance?

22 We establish that relevance by asking 
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1 our applicant to clearly demonstrate that their 

2 research is addressing key priorities of the 

3 industry. So by having NOSB link -- priority 

4 linked to our RFAs, they are used by our applicants 

5 to establish that relevance to show that this is 

6 really addressing a need of this industry. So I'm 

7 just giving here an example of how our applicant 

8 community is responding to those priorities. I've 

9 put here in this box verbatim a language from one 

10 of the applications, and this is an ongoing award. 

11 And they put in their application right at the 

12 beginning, This project addresses three NOSB 

13 research priorities, and then they listed them: 

14 Organic alternative systems; side-by-side trial 

15 of organic materials and culture methods; and 

16 three, production and yield area to transitioning 

17 to organic production. So you see that the 

18 applicant community is really taking that very 

19 seriously and they are using that to establish that 

20 relevance. And that is what pushed the project 

21 really high on the list.

22 Now, we also have had some questions 
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1 about, should we be ranking some of these 

2 priorities to put, like, number 1, number 2? I 

3 would say even within NIFA, we usually do not rank 

4 our priorities because it would have no impact on 

5 our peer review system. And sometimes we ask 

6 people to -- we use bullets, which is a lot easier 

7 than just using a numerical system 1, 2, 3. So 

8 our focus in our peer review panel is really, once 

9 the relevance is established, most of the focus 

10 is on scientific and technical merit of the 

11 proposals.

12 So I'm just going to move here and show 

13 you a bit of data that those two programs have 

14 become quickly established as national programs. 

15 This shows the number of proposal received by 

16 every state. And you can see pretty much we 

17 received proposal from every state and 

18 territories. Obviously, you know, most of them 

19 are focused in the north central, north east and 

20 then the west coast, with Texas and Florida also 

21 submitting a lot of proposal. And when I show you 

22 the next graph, which is the number of proposal 
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1 funded, it would show the exact same pattern.

2 And this have the number of proposals 

3 funded for this program. And the state in pink, 

4 and I would say North Dakota was last year -- they 

5 received an award last year, those are the state 

6 that have not yet received an award from us. And 

7 there are very few of them. I think last year, 

8 North -- in 2021, North Dakota received their first 

9 award, and Oklahoma also received their first 

10 awards. So very soon, pretty much every single 

11 state in the country will have received funding 

12 to do organic research.

13 And another question that we receive 

14 a lot is about the success rate of our two programs. 

15 They are pretty different between OREI here in 

16 blue, and ORG in green. Like I told you, OREI is 

17 open to everyone. That's probably the reason why 

18 the success rate tend to be smaller. It ranges 

19 here between 8 percent and about 30 percent in a 

20 good year. ORG, the Organic Transition on the 

21 other hand, tend to be higher in term of success 

22 rate. Like, just look at 2021 here. We have 61 
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1 percent success rate for that program, and part 

2 of it is because, again, not very few people are 

3 eligible, only universities can apply. So there's 

4 a lot that we can do to increase the number of 

5 proposal there. But look at here, OREI, very low 

6 as a success rate.

7 Now, a couple of dealer, also some good 

8 news is when I started at NIFA in 2013 we have a 

9 couple of issues at that time based on some of the 

10 surveys that were done nationally. One was, we 

11 needed to see more animal systems proposals. We 

12 wanted to see more proposal from small and minority 

13 serving institutions. And at that time there were 

14 very few projects funded in the south. And over 

15 time we have made significant increase in all those 

16 three bullets. We are seeing more proposal for 

17 animal system not only submitted, but also funded. 

18 Same thing for small and minority serving 

19 institution and in the southern region.

20 Kiki was talking about plant breeding. 

21 Yes. The same thing was true here. We wanted

22 to see more seed and breed proposals. Look at this 
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1 graph there. When I'm looking at the success rate, 

2 what you have there in green will be the success 

3 rate of the entire program. And then in blue will 

4 be the success rate of the seed and breed project. 

5 2014 we have 23 percent for the seed project and 

6 the entire program was 27 percent. So the seed 

7 and breed project were not very successful with 

8 the program.

9 What we did was, again, we are only 

10 funding project based on scientific merit. We 

11 rely a lot on you and the industry to send the word 

12 out. We did a lot of craftsmanship seminars and 

13 we are very happy to see that since that time, all 

14 the breeding project are more successful with our 

15 programs. Look at here, since 2015, all the

16 breeding project are more successful. And 2021, 

17 we have 44 percent success rate for the breeding 

18 project compared to 23 for the rest of the program. 

19 So that's another place where we noticed that 

20 there was a need and we've made a significant effort 

21 through you, through all our stakeholders, to 

22 really bring together the best mind so that they 
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1 can put together compelling and competitive 

2 projects.

3 So some areas where the news is not that 

4 great is, we have just closed the 2022 grant cycle. 

5 So all our applications are in for OREI and ORG. 

6 For OREI, we saw a significant drop in the number 

7 of application, even though the total budget of 

8 the program has increased, we are seeing this year 

9 40 percent drop in the total number of applications 

10 for OREI, and 50 percent drop in the total number 

11 of application for the Organic Transitions for the 

12 last two years.

13 Now, why? We were just scratching our 

14 head and asking, is this some side effects of COVID? 

15 We also noticed that a lot of project director 

16 that have active awards were, all of them, asking 

17 for no-cost extension, meaning that they are 

18 struggling to complete their field work and they 

19 wanted extra time to get it done. Probably they 

20 did not have the time to put in -- together new 

21 applications. So this is something that we need 

22 -- we are going to be working on, making sure that 
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1 as our budget increase significantly, that we work 

2 with our industry, our -- all our partners and 

3 stakeholder, to increase the number of 

4 applications because we went to make sure that we 

5 are only funding the best scientists.

6 So again, here you saw a budget of OREI 

7 increasing to 50 million. So we need to follow 

8 that with, you know, taking advantage of that to 

9 stimulate the research and innovation and to tackle 

10 some of the big issue that the industry is currently 

11 facing. And looking to the future, again, we are 

12 going to keep our three leg of the stool, you know, 

13 which is research and innovation; extension is the 

14 key component of our program; and education 

15 training of the next generation of research leader 

16 will also continue to be -- it's one -- it's our 

17 weakest leg right now, the education component, 

18 but we will try continue to work on that.

19 We will also continue to work with you 

20 all to promote the two programs. So if anyone has 

21 a meeting somewhere and wanted us to come and give 

22 a talk on the two programs to really stimulate the 
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1 applicant community and get more solid 

2 applications for this program, we would be ready 

3 to come anytime. We want to also work within NIFA 

4 to continue to include the language on organic 

5 research in other programs. We also thought that 

6 maybe we, that was the reason why we getting fewer 

7 applications because most people can see other 

8 opportunities with other program, like beginning 

9 farmers. I manage another AFRI program where I 

10 am funding many organic project. So we would 

11 continue to do that.

12 And also we want to -- we are very 

13 excited that we are being evaluated. Our program 

14 is being evaluated by an external evaluator, the 

15 Organic Farming Research Foundation, so that maybe 

16 one or two years from now, they would come with 

17 some findings, some ways we can all together 

18 improve those two programs. So this is our entire 

19 team. It is myself, Mat --

20 Carolyn, you did a great job of 

21 pronouncing my last name. Many of my colleagues 

22 -- many of my colleagues have that problem.
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1 MR. NGOUAJIO: So myself, Mat 

2 Ngouajio.

3 MS. DIMITRI: Thank you.

4 MR. NGOUAJIO: Yes. I have -- look at 

5 the plant part of the organic system. I'm the 

6 overall lead for the program. But I do have my 

7 colleague, Steve Smith, who is from the animal 

8 systems division. And we have Neerja, who's our 

9 program specialist. Since organic touches on 

10 everything plant and animal, you also see there 

11 too, division director, Susan Moser from plant 

12 system and Bob Godfrey from animal systems. So 

13 those are the two division director that I work 

14 with for these organic programs.

15 So -- okay. Yes. We are asked to 

16 always show this slide to show that -- the 

17 nondiscrimination statement for USDA. I think 

18 since you are going to have a copy of the slide, 

19 I will not go through and read all this now. With 

20 that, I think I will stop here and take any question 

21 that you may have. And I will also stop sharing 

22 my screen. I'm coming back to you, Kyla. And I'm 
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1 happy I did all of this without having any problem 

2 with my internet.

3 MS. DIMITRI: The internet guides --

4 Gods are shining on you.

5 Nate, do you want to do the questioning 

6 --

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Sure.

8 MR. NGOUAJIO: -- or do you want me to 

9 go for it?

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you again, Dr. 

11 Ngouajio. This was just fantastic. I know we're 

12 going to bombard you with questions now. So buckle 

13 up because this is really exciting to see all this. 

14 We're going to start off with Wood.

15 Wood, please go ahead.

16 MR. TURNER: Thanks, Mat. Great 

17 presentation. I really appreciate it. And I know 

18 we've been -- you presented to us fairly recently 

19 before and I know we're -- we continue to sort of 

20 say, hey, come tell us more about how this process 

21 is working and how the research priorities that 

22 are coming out of our Board are, you know, really 
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1 coming to fruition or sort of making a difference. 

2 And I think that's really on the minds of all of 

3 us as a group to try to figure out how this process 

4 really works. Because I think in some ways, we 

5 all come onto this Board and end up inheriting a 

6 process. And that's certainly true of research 

7 priorities where we sort of, you know, produce 

8 these research priorities and they seem to be 

9 rolling over year over year.

10 And the question has been coming up 

11 among this group in particular, you know, what is 

12 the impact? And so yeah, I think you did a great 

13 job of sort of explaining that. And I guess, one 

14 thing that will be helpful for me to understand, 

15 certainly as we're eating into our time to discuss 

16 our discussion document on research priorities 

17 today -- with good reason because it was great to 

18 have your presentation.

19 But the question I'm curious about is, 

20 can we do a better job of articulating -- and I 

21 get the point about ranking the priorities and 

22 that's not useful to you, but the idea of 
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1 articulating what the priorities really are trying 

2 to get at. Because I think even there's confusion 

3 within the community sometimes about that. We'll 

4 have a summary document, but then a much deeper 

5 document that articulates some of the things that 

6 are associated with it. And I just want to make 

7 sure that somehow the objective or the -- there's 

8 clarity into what we're seeking to really 

9 understand. Because I think sometimes there's 

10 some -- they can be fairly general, and I want to 

11 make sure that that's -- just get some guidance 

12 from you on that.

13 And the second point that I want to ask 

14 about ORG in particular -- and we hear a lot from 

15 the community about resources, improving resources 

16 to farmers who are trying to transition to organic. 

17 And I hear when you talk about ORG and the fact 

18 that those grants only go to colleges and 

19 universities, it makes me worried that the folks 

20 who need them the most, the growers themselves, 

21 are actually too far removed from that college and 

22 university aspect of that -- of the grant to be 
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1 able to really benefit from it.

2 And so I just -- I'm sort of imagining, 

3 having read a lot of comments over the last several 

4 weeks, I'm just sort of imagining what's on the 

5 minds of people who sort of wonder, like, how did 

6 this -- and that's a small program, that's a very 

7 small program compared to the other program. So 

8 how is that funding directly affecting those 

9 growers? Sorry for the long question, but I did 

10 want to give you -- it's a lot of context, but sort 

11 of having you here today, I appreciate it.

12 MR. NGOUAJIO: Thank you, Wood. A 

13 very good comment there for both ORG and your 

14 priorities. Let me began with the ORG program. 

15 To be honest, even us, when I first got to NIFA, 

16 I said, man, this is the Organic Transition. So 

17 we -- this is a program where we should be getting 

18 more farmers involved. But then when you realize 

19 that Congress -- they throw our program out in 

20 bucket,. Some of them -- every one comes with a 

21 prescription, and the organic transition program, 

22 just like many other programs that we have, the 
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1 IPM program and some other -- methyl bromide, my 

2 other program, they come with a strict prescription 

3 because they came under the umbrella of what they 

4 call integrated project programs.

5 And when they say integrated programs 

6 means that you need research, education, and 

7 extension. Once -- who can offer those three 

8 things? Only land-grant institutions. So even 

9 ARS cannot compete for that program. ARS cannot 

10 submit a project to Organic Transition. However, 

11 we have language, that came from the industry that 

12 this did want to see farmers involved in those 

13 projects. That is so important to us. In this 

14 we still required to either work with a field that 

15 is already certified, or that will be certified 

16 by the end of the study. Because we noticed also 

17 there were so many project funded with the Organic 

18 Transitions at the beginning of the program and 

19 then once the project was finished, everything was 

20 done.

21 So we are putting a requirement now, 

22 that you need to certify that piece of land. And 
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1 what's the best way to do it? Work with a farmer 

2 that at the end of the project that farmer would 

3 certify that piece of land. So it's still a 

4 weakness really, I would say, for our programs to 

5 not have people from industry like Kiki, the 

6 Organic Seed Alliance, many other farmer that can 

7 submit application directly. They have right now 

8 to go through a university. So if you want to 

9 compete for that program, you need to find a 

10 university and then be a SOP award for that 

11 university. And your budget should be less than 

12 50 percent of the entire project. So that's an 

13 issue that you know, comes with -- we only need 

14 to change the law if we went to change that. So 

15 that's a small weakness, but still, we are happy 

16 to have that program still in the books.

17 Now, when it comes to priorities, I 

18 would say personally, I think the way you present 

19 them in term of giving a summary, and then followed 

20 by a more in-depth discussion of what you really 

21 intend to be achieved, that is still the best way 

22 to do it. One, we are facing a significant problem 
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1 with this industry in term of researchers. We can 

2 express those needs. We can say we want to see 

3 more methodology in research. We want to see more 

4 of soil health. But still we need the people 

5 outside -- out there, the researcher, that are 

6 specialized in those field, or that would be 

7 attracted to engage in those field. And as we 

8 speak right now we don't have the luxury of that 

9 number. So to me, let's keep it broad. Whoever 

10 we can grant, we will say thanks for that. Because 

11 if we keep it too narrow, we will be again trying 

12 to narrow a community that is already too small. 

13 I don't know if I -- I've covered that, Wood. 

14 Thank you.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Next up 

16 is going to be Amy.

17 MS. BRUCH: Thanks, Nate.

18 Thank you, Dr. Ngouajio. Very 

19 interesting insights on research. I have a 

20 question for you, just if you could provide some 

21 additional information on that feed-back loop for 

22 results. So you talked a lot about, you know, the 
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1 process for application, and who's applying, and 

2 what, maybe, the focus is. I was just curious. 

3 Status updates, how results are communicated, and 

4 if somebody -- if an awardee does take up one of 

5 the NOSB research priorities, is there a way for 

6 any interaction between, maybe, our group 

7 potentially and what that person is real-time 

8 researching?

9 MR. NGOUAJIO: Okay. Thanks, Amy. 

10 That's a great question about, you know, once the 

11 research has been funded, you know, what's, how 

12 do you close that loop, make sure that they stay 

13 connected with the industry and those other people 

14 working in that field. We were doing a lot of what 

15 we call the project director's meeting where we'd 

16 get -- all the people that are funded, get together 

17 maybe once every year to share their research 

18 results. But unfortunately, with two things, us 

19 moving to Kansas City, and second, COVID, we have 

20 not done any of those three things.

21 We lost so many of our staff, about 80 

22 percent of our staff. And one of the things to 
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1 cut at that time was we -- no more project director 

2 meeting, nothing else, just focus on the basics, 

3 what we can do to get the money out of the door. 

4 So we will do a little bit more of that now that 

5 we are back fully staffed. And another thing that 

6 also happened is, we -- most of our project are 

7 funded as a grant. So meaning that the -- you have 

8 that, what is called the minimum reporting 

9 requirement. And we have to actually sometime --

10 I'm rejecting more annual report than I used to 

11 do, because you see people giving you five 

12 sentences for a project of $2 million because 

13 that's all that the government requires, you know.

14 It's not like when you do a cooperative 

15 agreement, you can ask for more. It's, like, not 

16 the SARE program, when you get a project funded 

17 through the SARE program because those are -- most 

18 of them are cooperative agreement. They can ask 

19 for extra reporting. But most of our grant, we 

20 do not have that opportunity. So the best way for 

21 us to get more is to get those project directors 

22 together with industry to share their result and 
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1 usually when we convene those meetings, we get more 

2 from those project directors.

3 But you are -- its a very important 

4 point, Amy, because it's -- if the research is done 

5 and the only output is waiting for a scientific 

6 publication that -- most of that is not go into 

7 go to the hands of the industry right away. It 

8 may take five to ten years to get to that scientific 

9 publication, when we actually need to have that 

10 feedback on a continuous basis. So, thanks.

11 MS. BRUCH: Thank you.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: Dilip, please go 

13 ahead.

14 MR. NANDWANI: Okay. Good afternoon, 

15 Dr. Ngouajio, and good to see you again over the 

16 institute's connection. Although I have attended 

17 your presentations in the past in American Society, 

18 but this was really a very good update on what's 

19 been happening past few yes, especially we are 

20 getting out from the COVID. And as I noticed in 

21 others that there was a drop in the applications 

22 and that there is a increase in funding.
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1 Couple of -- kind of one is quick simple 

2 question and maybe a clarification. You know I'm 

3 with TSU and it's a 1890 institution, and you did 

4 mention that there are some -- within OREI and ORG, 

5 you have some preference or -- where you do see 

6 that proposals are coming from minority 

7 institutions. But what other programs in AFRI 

8 which you are also program leader, do you see there 

9 -- is there any specific programs for those 

10 institutions? And part of that question is also, 

11 the research priorities you have mentioned from 

12 NOSB to -- in OREI, are they also the same when 

13 proposals being submitted in AFRI and other USDA 

14 programs, or is there any update or changes in those 

15 research priorities?

16 And second quick question I have, these 

17 ORG proposals, can they be conducted on certified 

18 organic operations? My understanding is that, 

19 yes, but I'm not sure, or it has to be only the 

20 transitional growers. Thank you.

21 MR. NGOUAJIO: Okay. And thanks, 

22 Dilip. Thank you for seeing you again today, and 
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1 hopefully, we will -- I will you see you again at 

2 ASHS meeting. So well, for the ORG program, we 

3 really want most of the research to be done in 

4 certified organic facilities. And, like I said, 

5 it's based on the past. Many people, I mean, I 

6 was -- back in 2001 I was a postdoc. We received 

7 one of the first ORG projects back in 2001. There 

8 were three funded that year out of four projects 

9 submitted. And our team received one, made me 

10 receive one. When you go back and look at all those 

11 projects, everything was shut down at the 

12 completion of the funding. So and the industry 

13 told us, no, we cannot continue to give out money 

14 and not get any results. We want to grow the 

15 organic community. That is part of the reason why 

16 we are supporting funding for those programs.

17 So that's why we put a requirement that 

18 even if it's not certified organic at least tell 

19 that you are documenting everything so that you 

20 can be certified by the end of the three years of 

21 your project. So that is what we are doing now 

22 because again if we just say certification is not 
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1 a requirement, I can guarantee you much of that 

2 research is going to be done in conventional system 

3 that would take a piece of land, just do the 

4 research. After three years, that would be done, 

5 they would move to something else. So it's -- it's 

6 kind of limiting the number of application that 

7 we can get. But we ask this thing to make sure 

8 that we are using organic money to support the 

9 organic industry. That is probably still the best 

10 way to proceed.

11 Now, in term of priorities for our 

12 organic -- other program at AFRI I have an AFRI 

13 program that I manage. That is called 

14 Foundational Knowledge of Agricultural Production 

15 Systems. It's a new program that we started in 

16 2016. And that is the program where we fund a lot 

17 of organic projects. Maybe because I was the one 

18 who have started that program I made sure that there 

19 was enough language there to allow for organic 

20 research. But I would say the priorities for AFRI 

21 are usually more broad. So if you're looking for 

22 an AFRI program don't -- check with the program 
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1 managers to see that your ideas would fit.

2 We tend to keep them really broad, 

3 because each time we try to narrow down things, 

4 we get so many people or communities that would 

5 come to NIFA and complain and say, why is this 

6 project focusing only on this topic? So to avoid 

7 all that, you will see it's true for many of our 

8 program, we keep the door wide open as much as we 

9 can. And that has been the message that I convey 

10 to the community. Don't look for the word organic 

11 in a program to know that you can compete in that 

12 program. And I will tell you, in that AFRI 

13 programs the success rate of organic programs, 

14 there is higher than OREI. And we have even funded 

15 conferences through that AFRI program.

16 So the key word there, if a program you 

17 see the type of research that is doing there could 

18 fit in what you are doing, just check with the 

19 program manager and you probably would be able to 

20 submit. And those program also offer an extra 

21 layer of flexibility that, Dilip, you know -- the 

22 organic industry told us because we really listen 
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1 closely to what NOSB say, or the Organic Seed 

2 Alliance, they told us that they don't want to see 

3 a bunch of research conducted with OREI money, or 

4 organic transition money comparing organic and 

5 conventional.

6 And indeed, when you look at the early 

7 projects, it was comparing organic tomatoes and 

8 convention tomato, comparing organic corn and 

9 conventional corn. Those were first project that 

10 were being funded. The industry told us, that 

11 doesn't advance our industry, showing us that 

12 organic doesn't yield as much us conventional 

13 doesn't help us. We don't want to see that 

14 anymore. So we don't fund those type of studies 

15 anymore within OREI. However, you can still, if 

16 you make a case, in other AFRI program, to do some 

17 sort of comparison studies. So it's a lot tougher 

18 within OREI. So those AFRI program have -- offer 

19 more flexibilities.

20 MR. NANDWANI: Thank you. You have 

21 answered very well and thoughtfully and I'll see 

22 in Chicago for ASHS. Thanks again.
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1 MR. NGOUAJIO: Thanks.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Allison, please go 

3 ahead.

4 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you so much, Dr. 

5 Ngouajio. This has been really interesting. And 

6 I appreciate how much time, it's clear, you're 

7 putting into thinking through fairness and making 

8 the biggest impact investments with our limited 

9 research dollars. I've been working for a number 

10 years on the proposal for a comprehensive organic 

11 transition program that would be particularly 

12 aimed at supporting small and mid-sized producers, 

13 and that would bring together flexible resources 

14 that could meet a wide range of needs, including 

15 on-farm research.

16 And part of our motivation in pursuing 

17 this is trying to address concerns that I've heard 

18 about it being complicated to figure out how to 

19 access resources, each program having different 

20 requirements, it being time-consuming to apply, 

21 and so on. And your observation about the dropping 

22 application rates and some of the other related 
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1 programs that producers maybe using, made me wonder 

2 about this participation issue. So I'm curious, 

3 if you had the chance to design something new, how 

4 do you think we could make it easier for more 

5 producers to access research funding and improve 

6 coordination between ORG, OREI and some of the 

7 other arms of USDA that support organic?

8 MR. NGOUAJIO: Wow. That's a tough 

9 one, that I -- if I had the same question, I would 

10 be asking, you know, going back to the industry, 

11 OFRS, Organic Seed Alliance and say, hey, guys, 

12 help me here. How can we get this done?

13 But just to answer your question, I 

14 would think that if we went to get more grower 

15 involved, it is just to continue to do some of what 

16 we have heard from the industry in putting in our 

17 RFA that requirement to make sure that each project 

18 has a grower component to make it relevant and 

19 adapted right away. And we have been doing that, 

20 and we are lucky that a lot of people that serve 

21 on our panel, people like yourself, many of them, 

22 they see that need, the need for getting not only 
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1 farmers, but industry folks that are working 

2 directly with those farmers involved in the 

3 research that we do. That will continue to be a 

4 requirement, and that is one -- to my knowledge 

5 and my experience just sitting in panel, it makes 

6 the project more competitive. There's no project 

7 that we fund in our program, if you don't have a 

8 grower component. It is really tough to go across 

9 that funding line for most of the projects that 

10 we fund.

11 So now, how can we better do that? I 

12 don't think the way the law is set right now, we 

13 can get to the point where we can replicate 

14 something like the SARE program where you have a 

15 farmers' component to it, where they can actually 

16 apply directly. That -- our programs and the 

17 legislation that comes with it don't allow that. 

18 That will be a good additional component to the 

19 program that we do, where we can have a grower 

20 component or competitive small program that they 

21 can come in. But right now, all we do is work with 

22 farmers -- and not only work with them, make sure 
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1 they have a budget in the project. You know, if 

2 you don't have -- they don't have a budget, it means 

3 that they are just supporting the project, they 

4 are not part of the project. So that's a big 

5 requirement. But it's a great question and is one 

6 that we need to work together as industry to find 

7 the best way forward. So I'm not trying to avoid 

8 the questions, but I'm just saying that me sitting 

9 here, it's -- the solution to that would come from 

10 all of us. Thanks.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

12 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you so much.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

14 Dr. Ngouajio. This is an exceptional opportunity 

15 for us to better inform our work, writing and 

16 thinking about research priorities. I think we've 

17 been in a bit of a state trying to figure out how 

18 can we be more effective at sending new priorities 

19 that actually make it into grant making and are 

20 useful to you. So we really appreciate your time. 

21 I've gotten a lot of clarity from this 

22 presentation. So very much appreciate you taking 
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1 the time again to sit with us today and share. 

2 Very much appreciate it.

3 MR. NGOUAJIO: Thank you.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: And with every good 

5 discussion, comes a little bit of a time check. 

6 So we're going to probably run a little bit late, 

7 but I think those two presentations we had today 

8 were just outstanding. And so I really appreciate 

9 Kiki, as well as Dr. --

10 And I'm going to try this real quick, 

11 Ngouajio -- Ngouajio. All right, Ngouajio.

12 Dr. Ngouajio, thank you again, and 

13 Kiki. Thank you.

14 So I -- we are going to turn it over 

15 to Wood. And we were just strategizing for how 

16 to move through our -- the rest of our agenda today. 

17 And I think, Wood, does it still work if we run 

18 -- try to go through research priorities and 

19 excluded methods and then defer our DTO discussion 

20 to tomorrow during our deferred votes period?

21 MR. TURNER: It actually works for me. 

22 I don't know if there's any -- I mean, we -- a 
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1 straw poll of the group to make sure that's okay 

2 with everybody.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Is that okay with 

4 folks? We all sit tight a little bit. All right. 

5 Appreciate you all.

6 So, Wood, I will turn it over to you 

7 for the material subcommittee.

8 MR. TURNER: Great. So like Nate 

9 said, we're going to discuss two things today, the 

10 discussion document on research priorities for 

11 2022 and the proposal on excluded methods that 

12 Mindee will present after that. And then we'll 

13 move the discussion of distilled tall oil to 

14 tomorrow.

15 So I -- this may not be something that 

16 we need to -- I think it's important, and I think 

17 we tried to set this up so that we could have this 

18 discussion on the discussion doctrine and research 

19 priorities right behind Mat's presentation. 

20 We've had some of the discussion I think here today 

21 already. And I don't want to go through, you know, 

22 the entire discussion document ad nauseam. I 
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1 think we've gotten, you know, good feedback from 

2 the community as a whole on some of these -- on 

3 these priorities. And I think in general, what 

4 we're hearing is good support for the priorities 

5 again, which may not -- probably doesn't come as 

6 a surprise to anyone.

7 I think we've noticed some folks from 

8 the community who are leaning particularly hard 

9 on certain topics that we know are important --

10 that are of particular interest, including things 

11 like biodegradable mulch films, and the like. So 

12 I don't want to go through these in detail, but 

13 I did want to spend a couple of minutes just sort 

14 of raising a couple of points that I think are 

15 particularly useful.

16 One is that, I want to make sure the 

17 community is clear on the fact that -- and again, 

18 you may have heard me in my questions to Mat 

19 indicate that we produce an executive summary which 

20 is a list, an actual list of the very distilled 

21 down priorities that we've landed on. And then 

22 there's a supporting document, a longer document 
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1 that sort of goes into more detail about what these 

2 are intended to do. And I just want to point out 

3 that there was some feedback from the community 

4 that we had somehow disregarded or dropped, a 

5 discussion of more research into copper under the 

6 crops subcommittee, and that's not the case.

7 We -- the summary of the -- under 

8 disease management didn't necessarily mention 

9 copper by name. But if you look at our actual 

10 discussion document, we go into some detail about 

11 what we're really looking for in trying to learn 

12 more about the copper-based materials and to how 

13 to think about decreasing those needs over time. 

14 So just want to make sure that was clear to folks.

15 I also wanted to point out, you know, 

16 I think some of the feedback that we've heard from 

17 community is, you know, I think we've had kind of 

18 a legacy concern, I would say, in the research

19 priorities around learning more about suitable 

20 alternatives to BPA. I would say as well, I'm 

21 going to just use another acronym here, but 

22 hopefully folks know that when we refer to the other 
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1 materials of concern, like PFAs, for example I've 

2 heard the community's comments on that as well. 

3 I've seen it several times in reviewing the 

4 materials and do think it's worth some discussion 

5 in our subcommittee, or in this conversation today 

6 about how to include by name and by reference some 

7 of the -- some other materials beyond just BPA that 

8 I don't have concern for folks in the community.

9 So I'm going to pause for a second and 

10 I guess, you know, again, in lieu of going through 

11 every single research priority, I want to turn it 

12 over for some discussion here because I think 

13 that's the intention. I think we've all really 

14 leaned into -- we've all really leaned into sort 

15 of what this presentation from Mat would tell us, 

16 and sort of how we really learn more about and 

17 create feedback with NIFA about what's getting 

18 funded, how we're learning about it in the process. 

19 And I know a lot of you have some opinions about 

20 that as well.

21 I also, you know, want to indicate as 

22 well that I -- that was part of my question about 
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1 ORG. You know, how do we actually directly have 

2 involved farmers in some of this research and sort 

3 of keep it less about the ivory tower and more about 

4 sort of helping people on the ground, at least solve 

5 problems. I think that's what they're trying to 

6 accomplish here. So I hear that as sort of a 

7 meta-issue as well that I wanted to just flag too. 

8 So with that, I'll pause.

9 And since the chair is the first 

10 question, I will take the chair's role and say, 

11 Nate.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. And then 

13 I'll --

14 MR. TURNER: What's your question? 

15 What's your question?

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: I'll relieve you of 

17 it.

18 I was really heartened to hear the 

19 presentation today that our research priorities 

20 are so deeply used to inform grant making. I think 

21 one thing I would like us to do as a board is review 

22 the respective priorities in our subcommittees and 
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1 try to find stakeholders for each of those 

2 priorities. And so I know that we bring our own 

3 expertise, so we have experience when we bring 

4 research priorities forth, but I think it would 

5 be better to really figure out where the rubber 

6 meets the road as far as what does our respective 

7 community need, and how do we internally start to 

8 elevate priorities. I think we throw a lot on our 

9 list, but it'd be -- knowing what Dr. Ngouajio said, 

10 it seems like it's really worthy of our time to 

11 figure out how to bring very specific anecdotes 

12 from stakeholders, lists of stakeholders who need 

13 this work done, what the outcome is, to help us 

14 work on this ourselves internally and prioritize.

15 I will then jump over to Amy.

16 MS. BRUCH: Yes. Thank you, Nate.

17 Thanks, Board, for this discussion.

18 I think that's huge, Nate, actually 

19 because I just sit and look at all of these 

20 priorities. I think that they're meaningful. 

21 They would help sometimes advance some of our work 

22 agenda items that have, you know, the rest of the 
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1 story, I guess. I mean, it's great that they're 

2 getting funded, but that information is so critical 

3 for just advancing forward our industry, and I 

4 think there needs to be some worthwhile discussions 

5 on how do we get feedback loops. Stakeholder 

6 comment was really great. I know on my farm in 

7 a network of Midwest farmers, organic farmers were 

8 taking on the battle of the no-till organic. It 

9 self-funded a lot of it. We call it real-farm 

10 research. And usually you learn a lot from your 

11 mistakes. That's the best way to put it.

12 So I mean, if there is a a way to kind 

13 of capture this information so it can be useful 

14 there's a bunch of us farmers that would love to 

15 be helpful in this regard. But we just -- I think 

16 we owe it to ourselves in the community to get 

17 information and communicate it and start crossing 

18 some of these off the list because there's going 

19 to be lots more to place on the list and it would 

20 be nice to work our way through them. Thank you.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Gosh. I can't 

22 second that enough. As an inspector, I've seen 
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1 so many of these research priorities solved in the 

2 field by farmer, but that didn't -- that never gets 

3 out to a broader audience.

4 Jerry, please go ahead.

5 MR. D'AMORE: Thank you very much.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: If you would lean 

7 into your mic just a little, Jerry, or speak up 

8 just a little bit. It's a little faint.

9 MR. D'AMORE: Wait a minute -- maybe 

10 if I -- is this any better?

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: A little bit.

12 MR. D'AMORE: Okay. I would just like 

13 to address the issue of the research priority for 

14 copper sulfate. What you said, Wood, was 

15 absolutely spot on for a year ago today. We were 

16 called to task, I think, on the wording that 

17 predated what's -- what we have now. The -- this 

18 research priority on disease control is a pillar, 

19 I think, of support for copper sulfate. And as 

20 a response to our stakeholder community -- and I 

21 think what's there now has been good for a year 

22 and is first rate. So I thank you for that. And 
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1 I really do think that the issue of, you know, from 

2 our stakeholder community has been quiet for a year 

3 that I see. So, thank you.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

5 ahead.

6 MR. CALDWELL: Thank you, Nate.

7 Boy. I feel like, unfortunately my 

8 brain is kind of, like, headed into the slippage 

9 zone here. But one of the things that really 

10 strikes me with our research priorities is we have 

11 sort of two different types. And one type is sort 

12 of a broad, you know, topic to discuss. And 

13 another -- the other type is a series of really 

14 specific questions that we want answered usually, 

15 as part of our specific, you know, work with 

16 materials and whatnot. And I can -- it was really 

17 interesting to me when Mat mentioned the successful 

18 proposal that listed three NOSB priorities and they 

19 were all pretty broad. There was, like, no-till 

20 and side-by-side comparison trials, and then 

21 something else. But something like, you know, 

22 sort of the fate of copper, or something like that, 
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1 is never going to be, I mean, it's -- the chance 

2 of that being part of these kind of mega-projects 

3 that OREI is funding is really small, you know, 

4 and it's not going to be answered that way.

5 And I'm just feeling like maybe we need 

6 a two-pronged approach of getting these things 

7 answered. The more I think about it, it would just 

8 be really fantastic if there was some kind of a 

9 small project -- a small program within USDA,

10 within NIFA, or whatever was the appropriate group 

11 that could address with small pots of money, but 

12 specific questions that we had and, you know, kind 

13 of really try to nail it. But, you know, the kind 

14 of -- the overarching OREI and ORG projects that 

15 I've certainly been involved with, at least three 

16 of them, they're not going to look at these kind 

17 of specific questions. So just wanted to put that 

18 out there.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think that's a 

20 great question. It would be a nice follow-up 

21 question to Dr. Ngouajio as well, seeing how we 

22 strike that balance. That's a great point. I 
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1 think we should definitely follow up with that.

2 Carolyn, please go ahead.

3 MS. DIMITRI: I have a couple of 

4 comments related to what Amy said and then what 

5 Brian just said. And so I think, like, as a --

6 the OREI grants are all integrated. So that means 

7 that all researchers need to partner with either 

8 extension or education. So I think farmers are 

9 where the extension piece comes in. And so the 

10 information that gets disseminated -- like, I 

11 usually partner with someone from NCAT. So Amy, 

12 I think -- this is what I was thinking when you 

13 were talking. It's, like, I think it would be 

14 really -- it's really helpful when farmers have 

15 really close relationships with NCAT and other 

16 people that do outreach because it sort of makes 

17 that circle a little bit easier to close. Because 

18 they're -- they tend to do a lot of outreach, but 

19 they also kind of share information with 

20 researchers like, this is what, you know, these 

21 farmers that I know, I think is really important.

22 So, I mean, I guess maybe thinking --
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1 I know what -- well, Amy, you already do a million 

2 things, but if there is just more involvement on 

3 the part of organic farmers, I think, in this 

4 general, talking a lot to extension people would 

5 be really helpful in just pushing forward thing 

6 -- pushing forward important questions, but also 

7 getting the information translated back to the 

8 farm.

9 And then, Brian, when you were talking 

10 I was thinking, yes, this has always been my thing. 

11 It's, like, I'm a researcher and I just really 

12 kind of do what I want. And if it -- if my interest 

13 happened to align with the NOSB, then I would find 

14 that helpful, but I would probably not change what 

15 I was doing based upon the NOSB list. So these 

16 very specific things I think could be part of 

17 cooperative agreements and I'm, like, really going 

18 out on a limb here. So, like, NIFA can't give 

19 cooperative agreements through the OREI or ORG 

20 because the way the Farm Bill gives them money, 

21 but I just wonder if there's some way for 

22 stakeholders to get involved.
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1 We have a Farm Bill cycle coming up. 

2 Like, is there a way to either have, like, some 

3 other kind of grant program? And I know this is 

4 a very heavy lift, but that would be something that 

5 would be more along the lines of a cooperative 

6 agreement. And then there could be a lot more 

7 control. And these more refined but very specific 

8 questions that are important, maybe, to an organic 

9 farmer or an organic handler more than it would 

10 be to a researcher. So I'm just thinking, trying 

11 to think of ways out of the box. Because I think 

12 the way the funding system is set up right now, 

13 Brian's right, we're not going to, you know, very 

14 specific materials questions are not really going 

15 to be addressed.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that.

17 Kyla, please go ahead.

18 MS. SMITH: I think along all these 

19 lines I was just trying to think about how do we 

20 get it -- the information back out, or whatever. 

21 And so, you know, Dr. Ngouajio was talking about, 

22 you know, his challenges within his team. And so 
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1 -- and Amy is talking about, you know, just on-farm 

2 research that happens, that isn't part of 

3 necessarily a big funding stream or any type of 

4 grant or co-operative agreement, or whatever. So 

5 I was just thinking, like, is it -- would it even 

6 be possible to periodically pull together, you 

7 know, various folks to do, like, a research update. 

8 And there could be, I don't know, someone who's 

9 done some on-farm something; someone who's wrapped 

10 up there OREI grant; someone who's had, you know. 

11 We've also been texting a little bit amongst --

12 and, Amy, you were mentioning about how just 

13 there's, like, all these other, like, ag grants 

14 that are out there too that are, like, not within 

15 OREI stream. So, like, I don't know, just try to 

16 pull together pieces, parts, to get every so often 

17 just an update of what's going on out there.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think that would 

19 be huge. I think, if I might, I think the 

20 foundation of that question is trying to get more 

21 stakeholder outreach from the Board to our 

22 respective communities to try develop these 
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1 channels of communication. Who's doing the 

2 research? If each of us knows a research in our 

3 community -- a researcher in our communities that 

4 we could tap to try to get a summary from, I think 

5 that would be super helpful, just to kind of create 

6 small pipelines of information to feed into the 

7 Board and share with each other.

8 Allison, please go ahead.

9 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you. This list is 

10 so long, and it feels like there's so much work 

11 to do. So I'm looking at it kind of with two big 

12 sets of stakeholders in mind as I think through 

13 what the highest priorities from my perspective 

14 would be. And so one group of stakeholders is 

15 people who need help with production practices. 

16 And from that point of view, I'm wondering about 

17 who is served and who isn't served well enough. 

18 And then I'm also thinking about what other 

19 audiences might be interested in the outcomes of 

20 this research. And so there, what comes up to me 

21 is, who needs more research to be convinced that 

22 organic is valuable.
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1 So two things that come to mind that 

2 I didn't see on the list yet, I just wanted to offer 

3 in addition to, these all being really important 

4 priorities. One is regionally relevant 

5 techniques that are important in underrepresented 

6 regions. So the main one that comes to mind there 

7 from interviews I've done with organic producers 

8 is high tunnels in the south. It's an area that 

9 has a pretty small organic sector and the --

10 everyone that I've spoken with really in the south 

11 has said that they haven't found much help in 

12 managing their systems in a high tunnel context.

13 And then the other is on the climate 

14 change priority. I think we heard a lot yesterday 

15 about an audience that needs convincing with 

16 quantification and maybe just documentation of the 

17 qualitative benefits of organic. So it seems like 

18 we're in a moment where even if, you know, we as 

19 a practical matter recognize that there are a lot 

20 of benefits out there, there's an audience that 

21 needs to see it written down in a journal to believe 

22 it or to be able to advance a policy or whatever 
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1 else may follow from that. So I'd love to see that 

2 included too.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think that is huge 

4 looking at the climate-smart solutions information 

5 that I heard yesterday, that's -- we could have 

6 entire extra subcommittee on climate-smart 

7 solutions for figuring out what math needs to back 

8 up what practice. So, yes. That's a great point 

9 and we should definitely be considering that.

10 Liz, please go ahead.

11 MS. GRAZNAK: I guess I'm not 100 

12 percent positive that this group is the one that 

13 needs to hear this. But the thing that immediately 

14 popped into my head was, in the last 12 years, I 

15 have participated in a number of our research 

16 projects with local universities that are doing, 

17 you know, research here. And I personally, you 

18 know, think that the work they're doing is super 

19 important and so I'm willing to participate. 

20 Also, I'm, like, one of the only organic farms that 

21 they can ask to participate. But the amount of 

22 money that they offer farmers to be the 
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1 participating farm is laughable. You know, like 

2 200, $300. I mean, it's such small amounts of 

3 money that for the amount of time and, you know, 

4 growing space and, et cetera, that it requires of 

5 the farmer to participate in the research project, 

6 it's huge and the -- what they are thinking that 

7 the equivalent amount, you know, of money that they 

8 offer us, it's really, sort of crazy.

9 You guys aren't the ones that really 

10 need to hear that. But for 12 years, that's what 

11 I've been dealing with with the people that are 

12 asking me to participate. And honestly, the last 

13 two times that I've been asked, I've said no. I've 

14 said no, not doing it. And that's unfortunate for 

15 them because literally they don't have other 

16 organic farms that they can ask in Missouri. So 

17 anyways, again, not that you guys are the ones that 

18 need to be hearing that. But, yes.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: I would say that we 

20 are the ones who need to be hearing that just 

21 because articulating what those barriers are for 

22 all of us. And to kind of say, I'm in the same 
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1 boat, Liz. I have definitely participated in 

2 these projects. And when you have a field test 

3 plot right in the middle of your field and you have 

4 to make all these turns in your tractor --

5 MS. GRAZNAK: Right.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: -- around it, it's 

7 worth a lot more than 200 bucks.

8 MS. GRAZNAK: Yes.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: It doesn't seem like 

10 a lot of labor but it really adds up. So thank 

11 you for that.

12 Brian, please go ahead.

13 MR. CALDWELL: Really quickly. I'm 

14 going to write a long e-mail to OR -- ORF -- what 

15 is it -- OFR?

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: OFRF.

17 MR. CALDWELL: Excuse me -- OFRF, who 

18 is going to be evidently doing some kind of 

19 evaluation of NIFA, putting out a bunch of this 

20 stuff. And to our partners who are watching this 

21 whole exchange here, I want to put out there that 

22 applying for one of those conference -- or several 
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1 of those conference grants that Mat mentioned, that 

2 is a way to get all that information spread out 

3 to your regional producers. So that can -- those 

4 are pretty easy to get. There's not a lot of 

5 funding there, and that's a really good avenue for 

6 information sharing.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Absolutely.

8 Javier, please go ahead. I think 

9 you've muted, Javier. Go ahead.

10 MR. ZAMORA: Yes. I couldn't unmute 

11 myself. I will just echo what Liz said. And you 

12 kind of get overwhelmed sometimes with so many 

13 researchers. They hear of your name, you're a good 

14 collaborator. The amount -- the rewards for the 

15 farmer are very limited. But, Liz, I can say that, 

16 I mean, I can tell you--

17 MS. GRAZNAK: They should pay you more.

18 MR. ZAMORA: -- in the next three weeks 

19 I'll have a farm journal here with collaboration 

20 with the NRCS. I'll have a couple of other 

21 organizations, like ALBA doing a, you know, 

22 strawberry field day and that sort of thing. We 
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1 had, I mean, you've -- I can name ten things that 

2 I'm doing this year, just collaborating with other 

3 people. But, yes, there is -- there seems to be 

4 very little that goes directly to the farmers that 

5 are being -- that collaborate in this situation 

6 for research. And, you know, sometimes it just 

7 -- the way that the grants -- and how the money 

8 funnels down and trickles down it's -- it needs 

9 to be -- it needs some arrangement there, I think.

10 So I just wanted to echo that, Liz. 

11 But don't give up because your name gets out there 

12 and then maybe you'll -- you apply for a grant and 

13 then maybe -- hopefully you'll get it, you know. 

14 At least that's what happened to me. I got a CDFA 

15 grant to build some hedgerows. And it was, like, 

16 40 grand, which is really good. So anyway, that's 

17 all I wanted to say and -- yes, when it comes to 

18 that.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: I'll kick it back to 

20 you, Wood.

21 MR. TURNER: Thanks for the 

22 discussion, everyone. I'd like just to reiterate 
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1 Nate's point, I would just suggest that coming out 

2 of this meeting that you all, you know, bring your 

3 set of priorities back in front of your committees 

4 and make sure we've discussed and incorporated any 

5 new thinking any of you has on the -- and we'll 

6 get this document updated and kind of reflecting 

7 some of our real-time thinking on this. So thanks 

8 very much for that.

9 With that, let's move on over to Mindee, 

10 the lead on our work -- the committee's work --

11 subcommittee's work on excluded methods. We have 

12 a proposal in front of the board.

13 Mindee.

14 MS. JEFFERY: Thank you. First off, 

15 I'd like to thank the materials subcommittee. 

16 This subject can really give a person stagefright 

17 and the Board has really answered the call to review 

18 drafts. So thank you very much, everyone.

19 The organic community consistently 

20 acknowledges that regulatory frameworks using a 

21 process-based approach in definitions as a trigger 

22 for regulatory oversight needs to be updated to 
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1 remain relevant. We watch as new techniques in 

2 biotechnology rapidly outgrow our regulatory 

3 definitions requiring a high level of specialized 

4 knowledge to make clear distinctions when we are 

5 classifying excluded methods for this USDA version 

6 of organic systems. It is an untenable position 

7 as the biotech industry is rapidly outpacing any 

8 regulatory structure and his very difficult to 

9 track.

10 Before us in this meeting is a proposal 

11 to clarify which methods are considered excluded 

12 in organic production, specifically cell and 

13 protoclast fusion. In this case, we are making 

14 a minor clarification to the TBD list. This 

15 proposal seeks to remedy the information provided 

16 on these text tweaks as there is information in 

17 terms defined at 205.2, Policy Memo 13-1. And 

18 there were follow-up notes on both techniques left 

19 in the excluded message charts by previous NOSB 

20 work. It is clear from terms defined, the policy 

21 memo, the NOSB's work, and stakeholder feedback 

22 that our community is aligned with the proposal 
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1 to list cell and protoplast fusion as excluded 

2 methods, except when the techniques are employed 

3 within taxonomic families, with a consistent 

4 suggestion from stakeholders for a language tweak. 

5 In public comments one group expressed full 

6 support for the NOSB recommendation as stated in 

7 the published proposal with one small suggestion 

8 regarding the definition.

9 And do we have a slide there? Thank 

10 you.

11 We suggest that recombinant DNA be 

12 changed to in vitro nucleic acid technologies to 

13 provide a more comprehensive definition. In vitro 

14 nucleic acids technologies includes techniques 

15 including recombinant DNA and ribonucleic acid RNA 

16 techniques that use vector systems and techniques 

17 involving the direct introduction into the 

18 organisms of hereditary materials prepared outside 

19 the organism. Because it is not only DNA that can 

20 be manipulated, but also RNA and other materials, 

21 we find this definition to be more comprehensive. 

22 In addition, this is the definition used by Codex, 
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1 which brings our standards into alignment with this 

2 global standard.

3 This was a consistent suggestion across 

4 stakeholder groups. Seed companies expressed 

5 full support for this proposal. Their comments 

6 represented along with a strong emphasis on the 

7 need to strengthen organic seed requirements. One 

8 seed producer reflected that we are facing the 

9 potential stagnation of organic seed usage and a 

10 weakening in the resiliency and public perception 

11 of the organic produce market. Another group 

12 noted that the transgression of excluded methods 

13 into organic systems continues to create an unjust 

14 playing field with the burden falling squarely on 

15 the shoulders of growers and markets that do not 

16 benefit from, and in fact, are harmed by the 

17 presence of these excluded methods.

18 Here, I would echo the notion that the 

19 best way to prevent excluded methods 

20 transgressions in seed supply is to grow our 

21 investment in certified organic seed. I was happy 

22 to hear that stakeholders have elevated this issue 
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1 as a priority and thank Dr. Tucker for reflecting 

2 the concern in the program update yesterday. And 

3 thank you, Kiki, for your presentation.

4 Farmers and producer groups were also 

5 in full support of the passing of the proposal, 

6 also suggesting the amendment to the language. 

7 In conclusion stakeholders agreed that the 

8 determinations for when and where both techniques 

9 are to be allowed or excluded as outlined in the 

10 proposal language are correct with this minor 

11 adjustment, as you can see on the slide. The 

12 materials subcommittee was concerned that the 

13 suggested language amendment would constitute a 

14 substantive change, sending us back to work in 

15 subcommittee. We raised this concern and would 

16 like to thank that program for providing the 

17 clarification that this is a technical correction 

18 that can be addressed in our cover letter should 

19 we pass the proposal.

20 And there I will take your questions.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes. Thank you for 

22 this work, Mindee. This has been a huge lift. 
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1 So I really appreciate your expertise and time 

2 here. Brian has a question for you.

3 MR. CALDWELL: No. I just want to 

4 thank Mindee for her tremendous work on this over 

5 a long period of time. And she's intending on 

6 going a long way into the future with it too, and 

7 get more of these TBD lists, you know, resolved, 

8 which they've been hanging around for over a dozen 

9 years, some of them. So I really appreciate that. 

10 And one last comment as we move forward is that 

11 -- just want to point out that the definition of 

12 excluded methods talks about the -- I'm going to 

13 read it here: A variety of methods used to 

14 genetically modify organisms or influence their 

15 growth and development by means that are not 

16 possible under natural conditions, et cetera.

17 And I just want to point out that whole 

18 thing of -- that whole point of it's the means, 

19 not the ends, that they're talking about. So 

20 sometimes a genetic change could have happened 

21 naturally, but you just use other means to 

22 accomplish it. But it's the means that we're 
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1 looking at, not the ends. So that's -- it's kind 

2 of a subtle distinction, but it's really important 

3 as we move forward with some of these gene editing 

4 techniques and other aspects where the changes 

5 might have been possible naturally if, like, 

6 everything had been given 50 years of, like, you 

7 know, millions of crosses and you could finally 

8 get that thing. But what we're talking about here 

9 is whether the means used to accomplish that same 

10 goal are allowed or not. So that's just my little 

11 caveat there with everything. But thanks so much, 

12 Mindee.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

14 ahead.

15 MS. BRUCH: Yes. Thank you, Mindee. 

16 This is incredible work, very important to our

17 community, just clarity on these issues. And one 

18 comment that really echoed with me just even 

19 throughout this whole -- throughout our whole work 

20 agenda is just the importance of elevating these 

21 issues outside of the handbook for our standard 

22 operating procedures and getting them really coded 
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1 in the regulations. So instead of them being 

2 voluntary, we can really have some meat for 

3 regulation. So just wanted to bring that comment 

4 forward and highlight that. Thank you.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Amy.

6 Any other questions, or comments, or 

7 discussion?

8 MR. TURNER: Wood.

9 MR. TURNER: I just want to say really 

10 quickly --

11 Sorry, Javier.

12 I just want to say really quickly, again 

13 -- just giving props to Mindee for the passion and 

14 the sense of purpose she has for this work. It's 

15 just -- it's infectious for all of us. And I think, 

16 you know, if we can all bring as much of that energy 

17 to everything we do, it's -- we're going to be an 

18 effective board. So I just wanted to say that.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Amen. Thank you for 

20 that, Wood. I couldn't agree more.

21 Javier, please go ahead.

22 MR. ZAMORA: Hey, Mindee I -- this is 
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1 kind of -- this is where I find myself a little 

2 crossroads. I'm trying to understand what exactly 

3 this wording change will mean. And to me, it feels 

4 like there is some sort of a need for me to have 

5 some examples of what is it that they're talking 

6 about. Because I -- when you start thinking of 

7 -- listening to some of the comments like, you know, 

8 advancing plant propagation or something that 

9 could potentially happen in 50 years and you're 

10 going to speed the process, it just sounds like 

11 GMO to me. And it's just, I mean, I'm not, you 

12 know, I don't have the knowledge to really 

13 understand how this process work. So I am going 

14 to need some help and really to make -- to 

15 understand what exactly this excluded method it's 

16 trying to accomplish. And who, you know, who's 

17 really asking for this change if in fact it's a 

18 change, or it just the wording on how it's written.

19 MS. JEFFERY: Is your question 

20 specifically in addressing the word change in the 

21 proposal, or do you want me to give you a larger 

22 overview of the excluded methods issue?
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1 MR. NANDWANI: I think I mean, if --

2 we probably are out on time, but I will probably 

3 like to hear you just so I can understand that. 

4 I'm sure there is a lot of people that don't really 

5 have the knowledge exactly of -- especially in the 

6 farming community, that what is it that the Board 

7 has been asked to look at or perhaps change?

8 MS. JEFFERY: Yes. In this specific 

9 instance, how we go about -- how biotechnology has 

10 progressed, and how it applies the technology is 

11 happening so fast that, honestly, I just didn't 

12 get the words right with the recombinant DNA 

13 technology, that's a few years old way of 

14 addressing the issue. And so the in vitro nucleic 

15 acid technologies is a better update because now 

16 we need to use the -- they're using the technologies 

17 in more subtle and subtle ways inside the cell. 

18 How'd I do, Dilip, did I get it right? Do you 

19 want to take -- do you want to speak further to 

20 that?

21 MR. NANDWANI: May I add a quick 

22 comment, chair?
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1 MS. JEFFERY: Yes. Do.

2 MR. NANDWANI: I would say first thing 

3 Javier's question, and this is very simple and no 

4 one can deny it. Everybody will be agree that 

5 nucleic acids are RNA and DNA in the scientific 

6 world. So there is no doubt about that. Nucleic 

7 acid, if we change the term from recombinant DNA 

8 technology and we change to in viro nucleic acid, 

9 it rather -- it's helpful for us and organic 

10 community because, you know, let's say 20 years 

11 ago, 30 years ago, we had only DNA recombinant 

12 technology, but now we have RNA technologies also. 

13 This COVID vaccine, by the way, just giving an 

14 example is -- it's from MRNA -- MRNA technology. 

15 So nucleic acids are DNA as well as RNA. So in 

16 almost so many years now, we know about this and 

17 scientific world is using. So this is a correct 

18 term using the nucleic acid technology and we are 

19 including RNA. So that's good actually.

20 Now, the second question is whether we 

21 go about this and how, that's -- is still open and 

22 I'll leave it to the board.
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1 Do you want me to add something else, 

2 Mindee?

3 MS. JEFFERY: Well, Yes. I mean, it's 

4 a very complicated subject the way that we deal 

5 with excluded methods and I'd be really happy to 

6 go over that in depth. We have the definition and 

7 because the technology has moved so much over the 

8 years, the work were doing in this context is to 

9 keep up with biotechnology progress so that we are 

10 defining things that we will exclude because they 

11 are genetic manipulations, is the sort of the 

12 simple, fast way to say it.

13 MR. NANDWANI: Correct.

14 MS. JEFFERY: Yes. Now, we can keep 

15 talking about this, but in this particular 

16 instance, thank you for your explanation and your 

17 assistance, Dilip. I appreciate your expertise.

18 MR. NANDWANI: No. You nailed it down 

19 correctly, exactly. I mean, you did very well. 

20 Thank you.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Any other questions 

22 or discussion for Mindee?
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1 MS. JEFFERY: I really appreciate the 

2 written comments wherein someone referred to this 

3 as mind-bending subject. So we're all in it 

4 together.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Well, 

6 not hearing -- oh, yes. Any others?

7 MR. TURNER: No. I just wanted to --

8 I'm happy to turn it over to you, Nate, in terms 

9 of how we're going to field it.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Sure. Yes. If --

11 we have a proposal. So we are going to be voting. 

12 And so the motion is -- I'll let Mindee, I think, 

13 let's see --

14 You made the motion. Please repeat 

15 your motion.

16 MS. JEFFERY: It's pretty long. There 

17 -- it's on -- there's -- it's on the slide. There's 

18 two. Do you really want me to read the whole thing?

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Not really.

20 So we can see the motions as displayed 

21 on the slide. The motion was made by Mindee and 

22 seconded by Logan. And if I have this right, Kyla, 
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1 we're going to be starting with Carolyn, or are 

2 we starting with Rick?

3 MS. SMITH: I think I -- I think I have 

4 it starting with Rick.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Rick. Okay. 

6 Perfect. All right.

7 So Rick, what is your vote? Do we still 

8 have Rick? Let's see. Oh, he's almost back.

9 MR. TURNER: There he is.

10 MS. SMITH: You might have to tell him 

11 again. He may not have heard you.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: Rick, you're going 

13 to be the first one to vote on this one.

14 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. We have 

16 a yes from Rick.

17 Moving on down, Liz.

18 MS. GRAZNAK: Yes.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. And then

20 Kim.

21 MS. HUSEMAN: Yes.

22 MR. POWELL-PALM: Mindee.
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1 MS. JEFFERY: Yes.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Allison.

3 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Dilip.

5 MR. NANDWANI: Yes.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Logan.

7 MS. PETREY: Yes.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kyla.

9 MS. SMITH: Yes.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Wood.

11 MR. TURNER: Yes.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: Javier

13 MR. ZAMORA: Yes.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Amy

15 MS. BRUCH: Yes.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: Brian.

17 MR. CALDWELL: Yes.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: Jerry

19 MR. D'AMORE: Yes.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: And Carolyn.

21 MS. DIMITRI: Yes.

22 MR. POWELL-PALM: And the chair votes 
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1 yes.

2 MS. SMITH: I have 15 yes, 0 no, 0 

3 abstain, recused, absent. The motion passes.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: If I were in person 

5 again, a big applause for the work Mindee did to 

6 get us all through this. It was incredible work.

7 MS. JEFFERY: Everybody, like I said, 

8 I was begging people to read things again and they 

9 did.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: So thank you, 

11 everybody, so much. That concludes today. We're 

12 going to pick up DTO and finish off the material 

13 subcommittee agenda tomorrow during the deferred 

14 votes period. And tomorrow we're going to start 

15 off with another heavy hitting group, and that is 

16 the crops subcommittee. And we're going to have 

17 a lot of good work to do there. And then after 

18 crops we'll go to lunch. Policy development will 

19 be next. Go into our deferred votes review, NOSB 

20 work agenda and material updates. Give a formal 

21 welcome to our new members, and then have other 

22 business.
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1 So any closing questions from the board 

2 or Jenny?

3 MS. SMITH: Just clarifying. So we're 

4 just going to start with crops not finish out 

5 material which is DTO. Okay.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Correct. Yes. So 

7 we're going to -- in our agenda where we see 

8 Deferred Votes, we're going to put the rest of 

9 materials in that time slot.

10 MR. TURNER: I missed that. I didn't 

11 hear that. Okay. So got it. Thanks for asking 

12 the question, Kyla.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thanks for asking, 

14 Kyla. Appreciate that. Yes.

15 MR. GREENWOOD: And I appreciate it 

16 because with a couple of things we may take a fair 

17 amount of time. So that'll be -- by the way, I 

18 left the camera to separate one of my dogs from 

19 a very large snake. So that's --

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: Oh. Very good.

21 MR. GREENWOOD: We're all living, 

22 though.
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1 MS. TUCKER: That's going to be in the 

2 transcripts for this meeting.

3 MR. GREENWOOD: And it probably 

4 deserves to be there. They know it's real.

5 MS. TUCKER: Definitely. Definitely. 

6 Your dogs deserve to be captured in perpetuity 

7 there.

8 Nate, beautiful job today.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, everyone. 

10 Today was a great day. I have nothing but deep 

11 gratitude again, for all of your work and bearing 

12 with us, and to our speakers today, and always to 

13 Michelle for keeping us afloat. So thank you, 

14 everybody, again, and we we'll see you tomorrow. 

15 All right. Take care everyone.

16 MS. SMITH: Thanks, everybody. 

17 Right. So I'm going to stop the recording.

18 (Whereupon, the hearing in the 

19 above-entitled matter was concluded at 5:32 p.m.)

20

21

22
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1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11
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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

SPRING 2022 MEETING

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

APRIL 28, 2022

+ + + + +

The Board met via Videoconference at 

12:00 p.m., Nate Powell-Palm, Chair, presiding.

PRESENT

NATE POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH, Secretary

AMY BRUCH

BRIAN CALDWELL

JERRY D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

ELIZABETH GRAZNAK

RICK GREENWOOD

KIM HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

WOOD TURNER

JAVIER ZAMORA
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NOP STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

DAVID GLASGOW, National Organic Program Associate 

Deputy Administrator

ERIN HEALY, Standards Division Director

ANDREA HOLM, Materials Specialist

DEVON PATTILLO, Standards Acting Assistant 

Director

DR. JENNIFER TUCKER, National Organic Program 

Deputy Administrator; Designated Federal Officer
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CONTENTS

Crops Subcommittee (CS)

Topics:

Proposal: Highly Soluble Nitrogen

Fertilizers...............................

Proposal: Carbon Dioxide - petitioned ..........

2024 Sunset Substances Review:

Herbicides, soap-based .........................

Biodegradable biobased mulch film ..............

Boric acid ....................................

Sticky traps/barriers ..........................

Elemental sulfur ...............................

Coppers, fixed .................................

Copper sulfate .................................

Polyoxin D zinc salt ...........................

Humic acids ....................................

Micronutrients: Soluble boron products .........

Micronutrients: Sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or

silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese,

molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt ...............

Vitamins C and E ...............................

Squid byproducts ...............................

Lead salts .....................................

Tobacco dust (nicotine sulfate) ................

Policy Development Subcommittee (PDS)

Topics: Proposal: PPM Updates - Public comment

process ........................................

Deferred Votes

NOSB Work Agendas/Materials Update .............

Welcome New NOSB Members .......................

Other Business and Closing Remarks .............

Adjourn ........................................
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (12:03 p.m.)

3 MS. PETREY: -- I need to -- the webinar 

4 is being recorded and we'll have a full transcript 

5 of the entire meeting, including the two comment 

6 webinars from last week that will be available a 

7 couple of weeks after the conclusion of the meeting 

8 today. All right. Nate, I am going to turn it 

9 over to you.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

11 you and good morning, everybody. We had a good 

12 rain here last night, so I'm just reveling in my 

13 sprouting seeds. I hope everyone's doing well out 

14 there today. If I might, and I know this is a 

15 burden on all of my fellow members. If we could 

16 go through role call again. And again, if you 

17 would report to the group what you found most 

18 exciting and innovative, delightful about 

19 yesterday. I was really, I think it's a really 

20 good reflection. We had some wins yesterday as 

21 a group. Our work really sailed through. So I'd 

22 love to hear some reflections on that. And we'll 
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1 go quickly and then dive into crops, which will 

2 be ever more exciting. But if we wanted to get 

3 kicked off, it'll be a way that we all wake up 

4 together and get that -- get things rolling. So 

5 to start I won't make you go first every time Amy, 

6 so I'm going to start with Brian.

7 MS. BRUNCH: Oh, no, you have to go with 

8 a Z. Wood and Javier having to go at the end.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: You're right. 

10 You're right. Okay. So let's start with Wood. 

11 So he's not always at the end here.

12 MR. TURNER: Now the pressure's on --

13 I shouldn't -- I should've never said that. Why, 

14 why in the world? Well, let's see, Wood Turner 

15 happy to be here today from California. You know, 

16 I think since the research priorities process has 

17 been so -- we've also leaned into it and events 

18 eventually did entered of what it really means and 

19 that really works. I feel like we got some clarity 

20 onto the what that -- what the impact of that 

21 process can be and through our role and I thought 

22 that was great yesterday, so thanks.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. 

2 Javier, please go ahead.

3 MR. ZAMORA: Good morning, everyone. 

4 Buenos dias. I just felt a lot more comfortable 

5 yesterday and I'm just amazed on the wealth of 

6 knowledge on some of that new Board members and 

7 some of the, you know, older Board members and just 

8 how cohesive this Board is on how such a good work 

9 that's getting done. Yes. Excited.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Hear, hear. Amy, 

11 please go ahead.

12 MS. BRUNCH: Thank you, Nate. Welcome 

13 from Nebraska. Hopefully, we'll get that rain 

14 that you had, Nate.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: We're sending it 

16 your way.

17 MS. BRUNCH: Maybe today because we're 

18 east of you, yes, hopefully. Anyway, gosh, I was 

19 at -- I was thinking I was going to go at the end. 

20 But yesterday, just in reflection, I was really 

21 impressed with the different perspectives that the 

22 Board was able to discuss. I was really overjoyed 
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1 by just the new member participation. I loved 

2 Dilip's relevant anecdotes to the excluded 

3 methods, and just providing some additional 

4 technical information. I know each and every one 

5 of you have a great perspective and I'm looking 

6 forward to having and hearing more of that in our 

7 conversations. Thank you.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Amy. 

9 Brian, please go ahead.

10 MR. CALDWELL: Hi, Brian Caldwell, 

11 here from Central New York, where we had snow 

12 flurries yesterday, which was kind of amazing for 

13 me, but I was really sort of intrigue by the seed 

14 discussion. And I felt like it could have gone 

15 on for hours because there were a whole bunch of 

16 issues that I had thought of, but we didn't have 

17 enough time to really cover it. And it's such an 

18 important issue, and it has just like everything 

19 else that we seem to get into here. The more you 

20 get into it, the more sort of nuances and 

21 convolutions there are. So I was fascinated by 

22 the seed discussion.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think it speaks 

2 volumes to a lot of the issues as a community that 

3 we're experiencing. It kind of housed a lot of 

4 our concerns. So I think it spoke to a lot of 

5 folks. Thank you for that. Jerry, please go 

6 ahead.

7 MR. D'AMORE: Hello. And I am 

8 probably still a little handicapped on volume. 

9 I thought I had it fixed, but it's not, so I'll 

10 talk loudly. I'm just going to have to echo the 

11 thoughts about our brand new class that came in. 

12 It just like -- looks like they've been around 

13 for a year already. I'm just in awe of you in the 

14 way you just have fit in and participated. So 

15 thank you.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: Hear, hear. Next up 

17 we have Carolyn.

18 DR. DIMITRI: Good afternoon, 

19 everyone. I'm not a farmer, but I do -- can tell 

20 you it is cold outside in New York City. I had 

21 to wear down coat today. I quite enjoyed the 

22 conversation and the presentation on seeds. And 
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1 I think there are a lot of really interesting 

2 economic issues worth studying in terms of adoption 

3 of organic seed and how that will play out over 

4 the future. Thank you.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Rick?

6 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. Rick Greenwood, 

7 calling in from the San Diego area of California. 

8 And I think I want to echo what Wood said. I've 

9 been on the Board for a long time and we've worked 

10 on research priorities. And I never really felt 

11 that they went anywhere. We spent a lot of 

12 discussion, had a lot of priorities and then they 

13 just disappeared and I think having the discussion 

14 and knowing that they get acted on and that if we 

15 can close the loop. So we really know what happens 

16 to them. I think it's going to make the whole issue 

17 of finding the priorities more important. It's 

18 one thing to work on and stuff. But if you don't 

19 think it goes anywhere, it seems like a meaningless 

20 activity. So I thought that was great. And the 

21 other thing is how well we're working as a Board. 

22 I mean, it really seems like we're a well-oiled 
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1 machine, so I'm impressed.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: As our senior 

3 member, that is very meaningful coming from you 

4 because we have no point of reference. Other than 

5 this is what --

6 MR. GREENWOOD: I hope you mean, the 

7 longest serving member, not the --

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Longest-serving 

9 member, of course.

10 MR. GREENWOOD: Not the most senior 

11 member, although that's probably true also.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: Well, thank you for 

13 that. Liz, please go ahead.

14 MS. GRAZNAK: Good morning from 

15 Mid-Missouri. Liz Graznak, Happy Hollow Farm. 

16 I still definitely feel new and that there is a 

17 whole lot that I need to learn. But I really am 

18 enjoying myself and I did also really appreciated 

19 the two presentations about seeds and research in 

20 the role of NIFA yesterday, those were great.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that, 

22 Liz. Kim?
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1 MS. HUSEMAN: Hi, good morning. 

2 Kimberly Huseman, I'm in Windsor, Colorado. From 

3 yesterday's conversations beyond what's already 

4 been mentioned, I'm going to give a shout out to 

5 Kyla. Your description and how we talked about 

6 the classifications as we're looking at sunsets, 

7 and the early days of sunsets, and I've noticed 

8 over the past three years, or my time on the Board, 

9 is going to my third year, how we're all, you know, 

10 we're talking about are things properly classified 

11 and what are those classifications like at -- or 

12 look -- need to look like. So your expertise there 

13 is very well welcomed on the Board, so shout out 

14 to you.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Hear, hear. 

16 Mindee, please go ahead.

17 MS. JEFFERY: Similar echo, a lot of 

18 the thoughts from the deliberate -- on the new 

19 members and all the presentation information, and 

20 I really appreciate our ability to deliberate. 

21 And just want to thank everybody for bringing the 

22 heat on my sunset.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: We saw an 

2 opportunity, talked about those pig intestines, 

3 and we were rescued. Allison, please go ahead.

4 MS. JOHNSON: Hi, everyone. Yes, 

5 aside from the beautiful picture of a barrel of 

6 intestines that I'm going to hold in my head for 

7 a long time. I was really pleased and surprised 

8 at how much cohesion and there was on just core 

9 organic principles yesterday, QUATs and excluded 

10 methods. It's just really clear that there's a 

11 lot of consensus about what should and shouldn't 

12 be in organic. And I appreciate all the 

13 stakeholder help in, you know, getting the words 

14 just right, but, especially, you know, coming in 

15 as a new person from, like, a moderately engaged 

16 organic consumer position, you hear a lot of 

17 controversy and focus on disagreement on the 

18 outside. So it's really affirming to remember how 

19 much agreement there is, and I'm excited for that.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. Thank 

21 you for that. Dilip, please go ahead.

22 DR. NANDWANI: Good morning, can you 
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1 hear me well? I changed my microphone today.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes.

3 DR. NANDWANI: Good. Thank you. 

4 Good morning again from Tennessee. It's nice 

5 weather today, it's a little bit warm. It was very 

6 cold yesterday, around 40 degrees, so that's 

7 exciting. Well, yesterday, the second day of 

8 meeting went very well and I am thankful to all 

9 the members and administrators, you know, for their 

10 support. I presented my sunset and I kind of 

11 stumbled when Brian asked me the question and I 

12 told myself that, Dilip, you have to be prepared 

13 next time. So I learned something, but it's very 

14 exciting of course, and learning. And I found that 

15 both speakers, Kiki (phonetic) and Dr. Gwajio 

16 (phonetic) both were excellent and I learned a lot 

17 of new information and thanks for the update they 

18 provided. Thank you.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Logan, 

20 please go ahead.

21 MS. PETREY: I've got a touch-screen 

22 computer now, so it's super easy. Anyways, I want 
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1 to thank you all for accommodating my tardiness 

2 yesterday so I could vote and apparently I missed 

3 the intestinal bill with Mindee, so I'm super glad 

4 you all could accommodate me.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: You'll get a chance 

6 in the fall.

7 MS. PETREY: That's all right. I'll 

8 get the stomach for it. So yes, congratulations 

9 to all the new members. You all participate very 

10 well and way more than I did my first year. So 

11 you're bold, if anything. So you're doing great, 

12 but it wasn't the two presentations, you know, 

13 mentioned that the research that we do have an 

14 impact on what the research becomes. But -- and 

15 then also with the seed, it looks like we're also 

16 looked at for implementation of things. So it is 

17 neat to see the whole cycle of -- you know, we're 

18 looked at for the ideas and innovation and also 

19 the implementation. I think as long as we continue 

20 with both of those people will keep coming to the 

21 Board for action and so that does make our stance 

22 more powerful. So thank you.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

2 absolutely. Kyla, please go ahead.

3 MS. SMITH: Thanks, everybody. I'm 

4 here from -- with you today from Central 

5 Pennsylvania. Kim, you'll be happy to know that 

6 I already have a spreadsheet started tracking all 

7 of the re-classifications suggestions that have 

8 come in for public comment. Anyway I -- of course, 

9 I'm like super happy and proud of Allison and Dilip 

10 as fellow handling subcommittee members on their 

11 first sunset presentations. And then the second 

12 thing that I was excited about was Mindee's 

13 presentation on excluded methods, and like getting 

14 off of our work agenda and continuing to chip away 

15 at that. And hopefully we'll see some action from 

16 the program side. So excellent work carrying that 

17 through, Mindee.

18

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: And I'll close this 

20 out. Nate Powell-Palm, Bozeman, Montana, Cold 

21 Springs Organics. I wish I could just go through 

22 and list all of the things I appreciate about each 
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1 and every one of you from yesterday because it was 

2 just such a team effort to get through the agenda. 

3 But I want to give a special shout out to Wood 

4 because CPC is hard and I think that was really 

5 well managed. You drove that train right. And 

6 we were able to deliberate. It felt safe. It was 

7 very comprehensive. And thank you for your 

8 leadership on that. And I know you've given a 

9 shout out to Mindee, but one more because excluded 

10 methods very tricky and very core to our values. 

11 And so the fact that we got through that and we 

12 weren't all crying or frustrated is a testament 

13 to your leadership. And just the groundwork that 

14 you laid for us to engage this debate in this 

15 discussion with a lot of really good information 

16 two of the other things I wanted to throw in. It 

17 was just so awesome when we were discussing CPC 

18 and Rick came in with that real world example of 

19 medical application. This is the expertise that 

20 this Board brings is having where we are internally 

21 able to have really incredible conversations just 

22 with the 15 of us. It's a lot of expertise on this 
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1 Board, so thank you for bringing that. 

2 Additionally, a shout out to Dilip. When he came 

3 in with the discussion about what into -- I need 

4 to get it right, nucleic acid is, and how we're 

5 looking at being really practical but really 

6 effective with our wording and our definitions. 

7 So thank you, Dilip, for bringing that. Shout 

8 out to all of you as well. The participation was 

9 great we got a lot of great work done. One more 

10 day, guys. And we're going to get through it, so 

11 --

12 MS. JEFFERY: Okay. I'm going to stop 

13 you there for one second, Nate and just take a 

14 minute to like shout you out for great leadership 

15 in your first meeting and really being able to 

16 address all those higher level topics with a lot 

17 of class.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: I appreciate that. 

19 Well, it's a pleasure and an honor to work with 

20 you all. One more shout out I wanted to give. 

21 And I think this really speaks to a lot about the 

22 community, but Jenny has been at this work for 
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1 10-plus years now. That's huge. I think when we 

2 think about how does organic really develop. You 

3 got to have leadership that sticks around, gets 

4 that institutional knowledge, and can keep leading 

5 us. So Jenny, we hope you have at least another 

6 10 or 20 in you, because we need your leadership 

7 and really appreciate your guidance on all of this, 

8 so thank you. Any other shout outs?

9 DR. TUCKER: It's an honor to work with 

10 all of you.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes. Thank you. 

12 And this is the --

13 MR. GREENWOOD: One --

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, I'm sorry.

15 MR. GREENWOOD: Nate, just one 

16 comment. Yes. No, just one comment for Jenny. 

17 I was so impressed the other day with all the 

18 numbers that you remember of all the different 

19 categories and for a while I was going to write 

20 them down and see if you were making them up, but 

21 apparently they're real. So that was very 

22 impressive. I don't --
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1 DR. TUCKER: I have an amazing team 

2 here and so -- I know I get to talk to you guys, 

3 but, you know, the notes that I have all come from 

4 an amazing team that makes me smarter every day. 

5 So it is a privilege to work with them and that's 

6 why I get up every day and coming here is why I 

7 continue to work with organic. So thank you all. 

8 Nate, your leadership during this meeting has been 

9 fabulous, I'm really grateful. And I totally 

10 agree about how smart and talented this Board is. 

11 It's very humbling.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

13 everybody, again. All right. So Rick, are we 

14 ready for some crops?

15 MR. GREENWOOD: We are and we have a 

16 lot, I think there's 15 sunsets today, but we start 

17 off with two proposals. And the first one is the 

18 highly soluble nitrogen fertilizers, which seems 

19 like we've been discussing for a long, long time, 

20 started with Steve Ela working with Amy and then 

21 Steve took off for some reason and left it with 

22 Amy. So Amy, why don't you get started and then 
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1 we'll open it up for discussion.

2 MS. BRUNCH: Yes, no problem, Rick. 

3 Thank you. And I do want to recognize Steve's 

4 efforts in making this proposal take shape. He 

5 also participated, bless his heart, in the comment 

6 process. So post-Board service, he has been very 

7 vocal on just expressing how important organic --

8 the organic industry is. So thank you, Steve, I'm 

9 sure you're listening today. Anyway, I want to 

10 separate this. This is a little bit complicated 

11 as you could tell, the proposal wrote was pretty 

12 extensive so I just want give some history, so 

13 everybody can come to speed pretty quickly on this 

14 and then dive into some of the stakeholder 

15 comments.

16 So just as a recap, the vote at the fall 

17 NOSB meeting to prohibit ammonia extracts is an 

18 example of when a new material meeting organic 

19 definition of naturally derived enters the organic 

20 marketplace without a review process as to whether 

21 the material complies with OFPA or not. And this 

22 a little bit is in relation to what Kyla had 
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1 mentioned, the differences between how substances 

2 are handled in the crops livestock committees 

3 versus handling. Today, this proposal, which is 

4 actually a practice standard and not the 

5 prohibition of a material is in response to the 

6 Board and other stakeholders' concerns that this 

7 new emerging category of non-synthetic highly 

8 soluble nitrogen fertilizers that fall outside of 

9 the definition of ammonia extracts will be 

10 developed in the future, having no limits or 

11 restrictions prior to being circulated and used.

12 So as a commenter stated last fall, 

13 highly soluble nitrogen sources cannot be 

14 addressed in a vacuum, we can't look at these 

15 substances one at a time because actually there's 

16 going to be a proliferation of them. So we must 

17 take a broader approach to limit highly soluble 

18 nitrogen sources as a whole and not substance by 

19 substance. So the program history and precedence 

20 dating back to when the final rule was approved 

21 in 2000, the NOP agreed with the NOSB 

22 recommendation and put specific regulation of 
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1 substances of higher solubility. The NOSB has 

2 also set precedence with certain substances, 

3 including sodium nitrate and others just with 

4 prohibiting them or putting restrictions for use.

5 In 2009, the NOP advised vigilance in 

6 the approval of all liquid fertilizer products and 

7 then in '11 official guidance was used in relation 

8 to nitrogen liquid fertilizers that had an analysis 

9 of greater than three percent. And again, 

10 yesterday we spent some time discussing the 

11 handbook versus actual regulation. So today what 

12 we're discussing, actually couldn't be anticipated 

13 by OFPA. This is a very new emerging category. 

14 So the rationale for the practice standard is 

15 basically to prevent the widespread use of 

16 non-synthetic, highly-soluble nitrogen sources, 

17 while allowing for restricted use of these 

18 materials in critical situations, which was an 

19 important component vocalized by our farmer 

20 stakeholders. One of those instances in 

21 particular is actually abnormal weather. In 

22 general, the comments from long-time organic 
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1 organizations, growers, and even a manufacturer 

2 of natural sodium nitrate tended to be in favor 

3 of limiting highly soluble nitrogen fertilizers 

4 based on organic principles of enhancing soil 

5 biological processes.

6 So a few things that this proposal 

7 clarified, because this was sent back to 

8 subcommittee last fall. So the clarifications 

9 included the wording, we change nitrogen products 

10 to nitrogen fertilizers. There was clarification 

11 to how fertilizer blends were calculated and why 

12 that component, why that piece was important, 

13 clarification on the calculations. Many examples 

14 were included. Several certifiers and farmers 

15 mentioned that the calculations were clear. Some 

16 certifiers mentioned that, with additional 

17 guidance from the NOP, this could be executed.

18 Clarification on placement. So the 

19 proposal is indicating this practice standard he 

20 placed at 205.105. Ultimately, the placement will 

21 be left up to the NOP, but the intent is that this 

22 listing applies equally to all producers of food 
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1 crops, similar to the materials placed in 205.602 

2 or 205.105. Through recent public comments, there 

3 are four additional areas that I want to discuss 

4 before we wrap this up.

5 Relationship to OFPA. As was 

6 determined with ammonia extracts, the use of highly 

7 stable nitrogen fertilizers may not be compatible 

8 with organic production. Many commenters noted 

9 that the unrestricted use of HSN fertilizers runs 

10 counter to organic principles outlined in 

11 regulations and pointed to environmental concerns, 

12 while others say there's a need for more consistent 

13 research specifically on organic land.

14 The second one being OFPA versus OSP, 

15 organic system plans. As a commenter mentioned, 

16 the NOSB should not restrict the ability of farmers 

17 to develop the best organic system plan for their 

18 site-specific conditions. And just as a reminder, 

19 the individual's OSP, the organic system plan, 

20 defines how you remain in compliance with organic 

21 standards. It doesn't set your organic standards.

22 Solubility versus 3:1. And this was 
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1 definitely in -- a concern in a topic that this 

2 prop subcommittee spent a lot of time discussing. 

3 And there were several public comments about 

4 solubility versus 3:1. In general, for 

5 solubility, finding a percentage above which a 

6 limit is triggered is actually difficult to justify 

7 and becomes difficult to test for. Using a C:N 

8 ratio seems more complicated, but actually makes 

9 setting a limit easier. Highly-soluble nitrogen 

10 fertilizers contain mostly ammonia or nitrate 

11 forms of nitrogen. These forms do not have carbon 

12 associated with them and are immediately plant 

13 available and fall below a 3:1 C:N ratio. Organic 

14 products greater than 3:1 C:N ratio fit into the 

15 category of materials that require soil biotic 

16 transformation. To note, these protein and amino 

17 acid structures cannot be billed if there are fewer 

18 than three carbons to one nitrogen. The law return 

19 was also mentioned quite a bit in public comments 

20 and oral comments. The law return is important 

21 and essential to the organic way of farming, but 

22 organic farming as we've heard in other material 
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1 discussions, is not the industry's waste bin. 

2 Rules and standards foster clear expectations and 

3 are in place to protect the integrity of the organic 

4 industry and define what can and cannot be 

5 recycled.

6

7 And lastly, execution and 

8 implementation. I do recognize that there were 

9 some comments made discussing additional burdens 

10 in implementation. However, again, a crop 

11 advisor, some certifiers and farmers during oral 

12 comments said that the calculations were clear and 

13 resembled the steps taken for sodium nitrate. The

14 proposal indicates that certifiers or material 

15 review organizations could develop a list of 

16 unrestricted allowed materials that could you 

17 reference to avoid continuous analysis. While a 

18 certifiers comment stated, we request the details 

19 of the formulation of these products. If you don't 

20 receive the information of these products, we just 

21 don't approve them. Last week also Wood made a 

22 pretty impactful comment at our public comments, 
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1 just saying that bar for approval should be very 

2 high. In conclusion, this is a practice standard 

3 which is intended for all farms to prevent the 

4 widespread use of new non-synthetic, highly 

5 soluble nitrogen fertilizers, while also allowing 

6 for restricted use of these materials in critical 

7 situations expressed by farmers. I will leave you 

8 with the words of one farmer. The intent and goals 

9 of organic agriculture have helped to develop 

10 agricultural systems that will provide food over 

11 the long-term in ways that build our ecosystems, 

12 not reduce them. Organic practices are not simply 

13 a way of trying to maximize food production now, 

14 but they are in place to maintain food production 

15 over the long-term while building and protecting 

16 the resources required to grow the food. That 

17 commenter ends with please stop and take a step 

18 back and think about what an organic system means 

19 to use as you consider your vote. And with that, 

20 I turn it over to Nate or sorry, maybe Rick.

21 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. No, that's fine. 

22 Again, Amy, thanks for a great overview. I really 
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1 appreciate that. So open it up to comments and 

2 discussion from the Board.

3 MR. TURNER: I just wanted to ask the 

4 question you know, there were some comments that 

5 have indicated about the bookkeeping burden that's 

6 created by this proposal, the farmer -- the burden

7 on the farmer and I just -- it was hard for me to 

8 get my head around those comments and I just didn't 

9 know if you had any thoughts on those or other folks 

10 who might -- who have some direct connection to 

11 those comments might be able to speak to that. 

12 I mean, it didn't -- as we've deliberated as a 

13 committee, it had not been an issue that I was 

14 concerned about and then to hear several 

15 commenters, either in verbal comments or written 

16 comments kind of indicate that was an issue. I 

17 wanted to just hear you speak to that, if you don't 

18 mind.

19

20 MS. BRUNCH: Yes, absolutely, Wood. 

21 I'll start actually on that, and I would just invite 

22 the other farmer members of our Board to weigh in 
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1 with their perspective as well. Yes, there was 

2 a wide range of comments on that particular issue, 

3 kind of indicating that every fertilizer will have 

4 to be analyzed to, or every nitrogen fertilizer 

5 will have to be analyzed to. Hey, we'll just check 

6 a box and say we don't use this and away we go. 

7 So, you know, in summary, really, this is geared 

8 towards those fertilizers that farmers can see that 

9 have that high nitrogen component to, and it's not 

10 geared towards for as many where compost teas, 

11 composts, those traditional sources of fertility 

12 that organic farmers are using. This is geared 

13 towards sodium nitrate and some of these new 

14 complex lens that are coming down the pipeline. 

15 So this is -- there were some farmer comments that 

16 said this is pretty -- it resembles calculations 

17 of sodium nitrates. And that is true. It can be 

18 just very simple, where it does get a little bit 

19 complicated is in these materials that are complex 

20 formulations. So it's not just a sodium nitrate 

21 product. It's a product that has several 

22 components and in these components there are 
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1 substances of high solubility. That is where 

2 there is a little bit of extra work to be done. 

3 We'd need to deconstruct these materials into 

4 their components and figure out what each component 

5 contributes to the 3:1 ratio. If one is above a 

6 3:1 ratio, then that's where the restriction comes 

7 into play. So that's where the extra work does 

8 happen. And, you know, for me and my farm, I don't 

9 necessarily have to worry about that. I'm not 

10 going to be using these materials and I speak mainly 

11 on behalf of most the Midwest farmers. These are 

12 cost prohibited for us to use. We have to be 

13 resourceful, and use other ways, propagation, 

14 manure applications, in order to economically 

15 produce our organic crops. Others though, that 

16 do need to use these, they will have to: one, know 

17 what they're putting on their farms, and two, a 

18 certifier is going to have to also understand what 

19 is getting put onto these farms. So I don't want 

20 to go -- I could go a little bit further into this, 

21 but I wanted to open it up to the other farmers 

22 real quick, and then we'll go back into the 
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1 questions. So --

2 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Wood, you're 

3 okay?

4 MR. TURNER: Yes. Rick, I had my thumb 

5 up, yes.

6 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Yes, I couldn't 

7 see you there. Okay. Nate?

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Just jumping if I 

9 might speak to Wood's question a little bit more. 

10 Any burden realized from this will be on 

11 certifiers. Certifiers to the material reviews, 

12 this is not a farmer burden and full stop.

13 MS. GRAZNAK: As a farmer, whenever I 

14 want to add a new product, and it doesn't matter 

15 what it is, I submit that product request to my 

16 certifier and they do the back end work to make 

17 sure that it is able to be approved. So I don't 

18 feel like it's going to be any extra work for me, 

19 other than what I'm already doing, I guess, is what 

20 I could say from my perspective.

21 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you. 

22 Allison?
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1 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you. I just 

2 wanted to kind of tease out one observation. I've 

3 been working on this report on the benefits of 

4 organic for several years, so it's hopefully 

5 nearing it's finish, but I was looking back at 

6 205.105 last night and I just wanted to highlight 

7 that that's really where the core approach to 

8 inputs and materials in organic lives, it's where 

9 the big three prohibition is, it's where the 

10 overarching prohibition on synthetics is, and the 

11 rest of the connections to the national list. So 

12 to me it's a big deal to add something to 105, but 

13 I do think it's the appropriate place for this 

14 because it's -- my understanding is this is a signal 

15 that fundamentally we're not focusing on quick fix 

16 inputs, we're emphasizing use of compost, and crop 

17 rotation, and cover crops and all of the things 

18 that build soil health over time and so this would 

19 be added as a core principle.

20 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. No, thank you. 

21 Javier?

22
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1 MR. ZAMORA: Morning, you all. I 

2 think this is a little touchy subject as far as 

3 organic growers. I'm thinking of the small 

4 mid-size against the larger growers. I think 

5 there was something said that it's not just the 

6 nitrogen. I think there's -- it's not just the 

7 nitrogen in the fish. I think there's a little 

8 more beyond the nitrogen, that it's included in 

9 this new way of getting nutrients or nitrogen in 

10 this case. And I really think that there's some 

11 really good certifiers that look at details on how 

12 it's made and what's, you know, what the advantage 

13 for different ways of growing crops is puts a burden 

14 on them and it also makes it in a way more flexible 

15 for the ones that might not be enforcing the rules 

16 as good. Grower we see new products coming out 

17 in the market that are always -- who are being told 

18 that they're better. They help us grow things 

19 faster and they will give us better yields, 

20 sometimes not really knowing how those products 

21 are made. So it could be sometimes misleading. 

22 And I can tell you that, you know, the ratios 
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1 sometimes mean very little to us. We just want 

2 to make sure it works. But we might be adding 

3 something that it's -- is not going to be benefit 

4 for the environment. So this is where we need, 

5 you know Board members, a little more higher 

6 educated than myself to really understand how these 

7 nutrients, how this nitrogen, it's being created, 

8 and how it's being utilized, that perhaps in the 

9 future or even right now might be given a leg up 

10 to the larger growers versus the small family 

11 grower that might not really -- not that doesn't 

12 have access to it, but it's not so available to 

13 them. So we have to think a minute. So I think 

14 there's just have a lot to talk about and listen 

15 to everyone as we're doing. But I'm still a little 

16 concerned about how this whole ratio will work and 

17 what the burden would be on growers. I'm glad that 

18 Nate saying that will be on the certifier, but 

19 that's a concern that I have. I'm really, really 

20 enforcing what we're hoping for here.

21 MR. GREENWOOD: No.

22 MR. ZAMORA: Thank you.
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1 MR. GREENWOOD: Thank you. No, sir. 

2 I always good to get your perspective, Logan.

3 MS. PETREY: Okay. All right. I'm 

4 not going to go on a big soapbox, I promise, but 

5 I will go ahead and admit it, I was the one who 

6 voted no on this. I think you all are probably 

7 not very surprised. But anyway, because I was also 

8 the sole one to vote for ammonia extracts and I 

9 just want to make a quick statement. Just because 

10 a grower uses or has a need for high soluble 

11 nitrogen does not mean that cover crops and proper 

12 rotations are not used. That seems to be a 

13 misconception. It, you know, it may be cost 

14 prohibitive for certain types of grower, but it 

15 just completely cost prohibitive for us to have 

16 pale leafy greens that get harvested, rejected, 

17 that could cost like 20 grand an acre in crop loss. 

18 And so I actually am in favor of a 20 percent 

19 regulation because I do believe in the holistic 

20 system. I mean, we see it on our farm. And so 

21 I'm in favor of that.

22 My hesitation for voting that in is 
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1 because of who decides who the crop needs are. 

2 You know, the references that we have are from, 

3 you know, universities that could be very behind 

4 on organics. And it gets complicated that is it 

5 the percentage of nitrogen or are they available, 

6 you know, does all of it become available. I think 

7 it is very complicated. We do it with sodium

8 nitrate already. And so, yes, my hesitation 

9 started with who's going to tell me that that amount 

10 is, but after talking with some Board members and 

11 certifiers, it's going to be a negotiation with 

12 the farmer and -- from what I understand. And it 

13 currently is now. I haven't had any problems with 

14 it with any inspectors. And -- but I will say in 

15 the proposal it recommends that carrots are getting 

16 100, 150 pounds of nitrogen and that's not what 

17 we use. And so as long as it -- there is a 

18 discussion with the grower and what are you trying 

19 to obtain you know, it makes sense. You know and 

20 so as long as you know that is accommodated, it's 

21 fine. I agree with the 20 percent grow, everyone 

22 agrees with the 20 percent, you know. And most 
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1 of the growers that even recommended the AE agreed 

2 with that 20 percent. So no, it's not as debatable 

3 as the other, you know -- as the other, petition 

4 that we had. So I'm sorry to be long-winded, but 

5 I do want to get that out that -- yes. We still 

6 do use cover crops and we still use other things. 

7 It's just -- it's a different farming system that 

8 requires something very quickly in -- and the crop 

9 loss timing can happen within a few days and the 

10 release curve on some of these natural can take 

11 two weeks depending on the temperature, you know, 

12 even if the temperatures get to the appropriate 

13 time. So thank you for the time.

14 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you, 

15 Logan. Kyla?

16 MS. SMITH: Yes. Thanks, Amy, for 

17 your continued work on this. As Nate pointed out, 

18 us certifiers will be probably the most impacted. 

19 And I would just say that, you know, depending 

20 on a particular type of operation, you know, and 

21 what you grow, you may or may not be impacted by 

22 this. But as a certifier, we have to apply all 
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1 of the parts of the regulations to all the 

2 operations to figure out where the impact is and 

3 so that's the burden that we carry. And I feel 

4 like a lot of times, you know, with a lot of things 

5 within certification, it does fall to the certifier 

6 to implement and to enforce. And so because of 

7 that, I'm always looking at what's the impact that 

8 this is going to have, and is that impact worth 

9 it? Because every time it seems to be like, oh, 

10 well, this is going to fall -- like certifier has 

11 to figure out certificates, acreage on 

12 certificates, the certifier has to figure this out. 

13 SOE, there's going to be tons of stuff for the 

14 certifier -- for us as certifiers as to figure out. 

15 So every time we're -- I just want -- for me, that's 

16 my lens and that's what I'm constantly trying to 

17 address is what's the impact to the -- you know, 

18 to the organic industry as a whole and is that 

19 impact is going to be worth it? The answer could 

20 very well be, yes, absolutely but that's sort of 

21 the seat that I'm sitting in.

22 And then I just have a very specific 
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1 question, and that is that, I saw in the public 

2 comment a lot of confusion around whether or not 

3 guano was a focus of this. And it seemed like to 

4 fall on both sides of the fence and so that's a 

5 question that I've been getting from certifiers 

6 and how specifically to evaluate that, and so I 

7 didn't know if you guys could -- if anybody could 

8 speak to that.

9 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Yes. Thank 

10 you. Just one comment. So I also live in a 

11 regulated world from FDA with a medical device 

12 company and there's always pain with new 

13 regulations, but that's part of the cost of doing 

14 business. So we complain and they throw new things 

15 on us and we have to hire more people to do 

16 regulatory affairs. But when you live in a 

17 regulated world that's a reality. So, Nate, why 

18 don't you go on and then we'll finish up with Amy 

19 answering the questions.

20 MS. SMITH: Could I say one thing back 

21 to that, I totally agree with you. However, I do 

22 think there's a lot of talk around keeping the cost 
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1 of certification low. And so that's sort of the 

2 balance point about like we as certifiers need to 

3 implement all of these additional things which will 

4 largely require new staff or more training and so 

5 the costs of us doing business increase and then 

6 the way that we can increase our cost, 

7 unfortunately, at this point is to pass that along 

8 to operators. And so there is just a balance point 

9 there that we're all talking about already. But 

10 it's just a little bit tricky.

11 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. No, I agree but 

12 it does cost a lot more money every time somebody 

13 comes up with a great idea, it costs more money 

14 there's no question about it and how you can pass 

15 that on or not and maybe that's where NOP can come 

16 in, in terms of maybe more funding for all of us. 

17 Anyhow, Nate, let's do that.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. I'm 

19 going to kind of bridge a little bit between Javier 

20 and Kyla. I think one thing certifiers do really 

21 well, and I say this from experience, is material 

22 review. They spent a lot of money, a lot of time 
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1 really tackling the review of materials. So to 

2 Javier's concern that some certifiers might 

3 enforce this differently than others. The 

4 consistency across certifiers is admirable and 

5 it's where they put a lot of the resources and time. 

6 So I would say that's not so much a concern that 

7 I would share, but rather confidence that I have 

8 that this gives good boundaries to certifiers to 

9 be able to effectively manage this growing world 

10 of novel fertilizer products. In doing so, they 

11 make more fair marketplace, but I do want to give 

12 just the greatest accolades to certifiers because 

13 as Kyla said, this is a lot of work and I really 

14 appreciate the certifiers that are eager to jump 

15 on this and willing to help us out.

16 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. We have Amy and 

17 then Carolyn and then Brian, and then I think we 

18 need to wrap this up and move on.

19 MS. BRUNCH: Actually, Rick, I'll just 

20 defer to the end just in case Carolyn and Brian 

21 have some additional questions.

22 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Carolyn?
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1 DR. DIMITRI: Yes. My question is 

2 actually for Logan. Logan, can you talk a little 

3 bit more about, you know, the scenario that you 

4 gave is, like, is that crop-specific or is it like 

5 region-specific or is it depending on the weather?

6 MS. PETREY: Yes, I think all of the 

7 -- it is specific to all of that, Carolyn, because 

8 you'll have growers in very arid climates. And 

9 that won't need a high soluble nitrogen rescue 

10 treatment and that stated in the sodium nitrate 

11 as, you know, in the discussion of it is that these 

12 things happen. But in certain areas no, that 

13 doesn't happen. And it doesn't happen with us 

14 every season. So we don't use it in every planting 

15 that we have. But the condition would be like a 

16 spinach, which is a 40-day crop. And then two 

17 weeks prior to harvest we get a four-inch rain. 

18 And then a few days later you're going to start 

19 to see it pale unless you respond immediately after 

20 with a high soluble nitrogen, that it can 

21 immediately take up. But if you were to apply an 

22 organic fertilizer or an organic, you know, natural 
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1 fertilizer, you could be waiting 7, 10, 14 days 

2 for that fertilizer to break down to become 

3 available, and then to be uptaken by the plan. 

4 And by then, you get pale and it's really hard to 

5 bring a crop that's only 40 days old, you know, 

6 in age to recover. The time frame is very crucial. 

7 So that's just an example.

8 DR. DIMITRI: Can I just ask one 

9 follow-up question? Thank you. That was really 

10 helpful. So I think you told us yesterday or some 

11 day that your company is moving its production 

12 because of like climate concerns. So could we draw 

13 the conclusion that as we see climate change 

14 affecting agricultural more seriously over the 

15 next coming decades, that the use of something like 

16 this might become more important as producers start 

17 shifting what they're growing and maybe the regions 

18 that they're growing. It's a speculative 

19 question, I know, but --

20 MS. PETREY: It is, it is, but I've been 

21 to multiple conferences and produce, you know where 

22 there's a lot of California western companies that 
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1 need or think long-term, how are we going to get 

2 to the east coast? It's just a harder area to grow 

3 a certain things and not many have succeeded, you 

4 know, I bet a lot of them have failed just because 

5 the prices have to be different. So yes, I would 

6 say logistically, you know, dealing with the 

7 freight issues that we already have and then with 

8 the water restrictions, I know our companies, you 

9 know, everybody's in water restrictions. I know 

10 Rick can speak on that, so I would say yes.

11 DR. DIMITRI: Thank you, Logan.

12 MS. PETREY: Thank you.

13 MR. GREENWOOD: I have Brian and then 

14 Mindee and then Amy.

15 MR. CALDWELL: I think this is for Amy. 

16 There were a few comments that were specifically 

17 focused on the the wording of the motion. And it 

18 says these materials are three -- with the C:N ratio 

19 of 3:1 or less are limited unless use is restricted 

20 to a cumulative total of 20 percent of crop needs. 

21 But I think what is actually meant to be said 

22 there, they are, restricted to a cumulative total 
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1 of use of 20 percent of crop needs, and this whole 

2 little phrase there are limited unless use is 

3 restricted. It's a little bit redundant and a

4 little bit confusing because you know, it says 

5 they're limited, but it really means that you can't 

6 do it unless the cumulative -- you can't use them 

7 for more than a cumulative total of 20 percent of 

8 crop needs. Do you see what I'm saying here? That 

9 the wording is a little clumsy and I'm wondering 

10 if we can fix that in the cover letter or just make 

11 it very clear that -- exactly what the meaning of 

12 that is there.

13 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay, thank you. And 

14 I'll let Amy respond, but, Mindee?

15 MS. JEFFERY: Go ahead, Amy.

16 MS. BRUNCH: Oh, okay. I guess 

17 specifically to Brian, yes, I did actually see that 

18 as well with some commenters and my opinion and 

19 that can be confirmed by anybody in this call is 

20 that, you know, we -- the intent of the motion is 

21 there to make it a little bit more clear on a 

22 non-substinent change I think is definitely in our 
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1 purview, but the intent is that they would be 

2 restricted or, sorry, prohibited and then 

3 restricted to a cumulative total of 20 percent of 

4 crop needs.

5 MR. GREENWOOD: Great, thanks. Yes. 

6 Okay. Mindee and then Dilip.

7 MS. JEFFERY: Thank you. I really 

8 appreciate all the work and all the sides and all 

9 the depth of thinking that we have to go through 

10 and work like this. And I just wanted to say that 

11 I see this proposal as functional compromise. And 

12 organic farmers are conducting the symphony of the 

13 soil, and that's what we want. And I really see 

14 us as being on the yellow brick road with this 

15 proposal.

16 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you. 

17 And then Dilip, and then back to Amy to sort of 

18 wrap this up.

19 DR. NANDWANI: Okay. This is a very 

20 fascinating discussion for me. And it can go on 

21 and on, but I have a just a comment, not a question, 

22 what has been said, and probably it goes to the 
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1 roots of our principles of organic agriculture. 

2 So if the higher nitrogen source coming from 

3 off-farm input, you have to look at that to keep 

4 that in mind. And if it is really low, like Logan 

5 said that, and then if we provide then plants will 

6 have to wait for a lot of days. And by the time 

7 the nitrogen is received, they may not perform 

8 accordingly. So I'm just wanted to say that the 

9 principle using the on-farm input, it's, where we 

10 are looking into that and the balance between the 

11 quantity, low versus high. That's the important 

12 point to keep in mind. That's all I wanted to 

13 comment. Thank you.

14 MR. GREENWOOD: Thank you. So, Amy do 

15 you want to wrap this up? And then I guess we go 

16 for a vote.

17 MS. BRUNCH: Yes, absolutely, Rick. 

18 And I appreciate the comments. Also, just the 

19 diverse panel of farmers that we have here. Kyla's 

20 comments that represent certifier's point of view. 

21 I think this was really helpful discussion, Dilip, 

22 and Brian, as well, and Mindee. Just kind of in 
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1 general, I think that was a great term that Mindee 

2 had mentioned kind of a functional compromise. 

3 I've had the ability to farm not only in Nebraska, 

4 but in the US, in Florida -- South Florida, Texas, 

5 and there -- I mean regionally, there are 

6 experiences that happen that isn't a one-to-one 

7 comparison for farmers. That's why I think that 

8 this is important we recognized that, the community 

9 recognizes that. And kind of as Logan mentioned, 

10 you know, this is -- it points to a comprehensive 

11 system and then supplementation when those 

12 environmental moments do occur to regulate the 

13 usage of these particular items.

14 So I think that the intend to the motion 

15 is very clear. I really strongly want everybody 

16 to think about right now, doing nothing, these are 

17 unregulated. These are considered non-synthetic 

18 substances that can be used with unlimited amounts. 

19 So what we need to do and think about is putting 

20 these guardrails to offer more clarity in the 

21 situation. I know that maybe this isn't 100 

22 percent perfect in terms of clarity, but, right 
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1 now, again, there is just no rules, no regulation, 

2 and it is up to the interpretation of certifiers. 

3 So this at least gives some reference to what can 

4 be allowed, what's prohibited, and then what's 

5 restricted.

6 In terms of materials, there's a great 

7 chart that was put into the proposal. And there's 

8 a delineation, really, of substances that are above 

9 the 3:1 and below. Sodium nitrate and guano, Kyla, 

10 that was part of your question. Guano is right 

11 on the edge, and that one is probably the greatest 

12 of all materials that are currently in circulation. 

13 Everything else is clear and guidance can be 

14 issued. So this re-analyzation every year of 

15 these substances does not need to take place. So 

16 really looking at MROs to be able to provide that 

17 guidance. But again, this is to put some 

18 boundaries on materials that are unregulated 

19 currently. And I think this is really no different 

20 than what we've done with excluded methods 

21 yesterday. And also our approach to bio-waste 

22 films that we've done in the past as well. So with 
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1 that, in the interest of time, I'll turn it back 

2 over to Rick.

3 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. And I guess 

4 what we need to do, Nate, is call for a vote on 

5 this.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes.

7 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: So we have a motion. 

9 Motioned by Amy Brooke, seconded by Brian 

10 Caldwell. And we are going to start the voting 

11 with Liz Graznak.

12 MS. GRAZNAK: Yes.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kim Huseman?

14 MS. HUSEMAN: Yes.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Mindee Jeffery?

16 MS. JEFFERY: Yes.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Allison Johnson?

18 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Dilip Nandwani?

20 DR. NANDWANI: Yes.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Logan Petrey?

22 MS. PETREY: Yes.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kyla Smith?

2 MS. SMITH: Yes.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Wood Turner?

4 MR. TURNER: Yes.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Javier Zamora?

6 MR. ZAMORA: Yes.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Amy Bruch?

8 MS. BRUNCH: Yes.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Brian Caldwell?

10 MR. CALDWELL: Yes.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Jerry D'Amore?

12 MR. D'AMORE: Yes.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Carolyn Dimitri?

14 DR. DIMITRI: Yes.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Rick Greenwood?

16 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: And with great 

18 gratitude to certifiers, the chair votes yes.

19 MS. BRUNCH: That's 15 yes, 0 no, 0 

20 abstain, recuse, or absent. The motion passes.

21 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you, 

22 everyone. So we'll go on next to Logan Petrey on 
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1 the proposal for carbon dioxide, which is 

2 petitioned.

3

4 MS. PETREY: Thank you, Rick. All 

5 right. Okay. So carbon dioxide then it was being 

6 received a petition, requesting, is it synthetic 

7 carbon dioxide at 205.601 allowed for the use at 

8 (a) which is an algicide, disinfectant, sanitizer. 

9 And (j) as plant or soil amendments. Carbon 

10 dioxide is understood to be a material with 

11 inherently low risk and is also approved as a 

12 processing aid. Okay. And soils with -- so the 

13 use of it in soils with high pH, applying water 

14 with a reduced pH can increase nutrient 

15 availability and increased plant health. 

16 Additionally, the activity of carbon dioxide and 

17 water can help prevent clogging of irrigation 

18 systems by algae and other plant contaminants. 

19 The water pH adjustment can be manually control 

20 as well as automatically controlled, by adding a 

21 pH probe and controller that adjust the CO2 

22 injection to maintain target pH values. 
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1 Alternative uses with mentioned were sulfur 

2 burners and citric acid because water pH cannot 

3 drop below 5.0 when carbon dioxide is used as an 

4 acidifier. This method may be considered more 

5 secure as a pH adjustment compared to alternatives. 

6 Which we did see, the -- some commenters orally 

7 and on the written comments suggest that as well.

8 Carbon dioxide is prepared as a 

9 byproduct of manufacturing of lime during the 

10 burning of limestone, combustion of carbonaceous 

11 materials, also from fermenting processes which 

12 would be this, you know, where we would get some 

13 non-synthetic sources. And so the question has 

14 also been: Why don't we used non-synthetic sources? 

15 Some of the commenters were great to mention that 

16 the infrastructure to support logistically and 

17 storing that carbon dioxide is not available. And 

18 so therefore, the necessity of synthetic is there. 

19 And we also see that with the handling of carbon 

20 dioxide material.

21 Other comments, one commenter was 

22 completely against the addition, but also, you 
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1 know, was questioning the need of irrigation too. 

2 So so I do think, you know, when we are using 

3 irrigation, you know, we are, you know, in need 

4 of but -- and then three commenters where against 

5 the addition without the annotation or without an 

6 annotation demanding that the material be 

7 manufactured strictly from a byproduct. Kind of 

8 similar to what, you know, I have squid byproducts. 

9 So that was a recommended annotation. And then 

10 five commenters were in support of this material 

11 as stated. One commenter, QCS was in support was 

12 material however stated strong concern for the 

13 lacking discussion of carbon dioxide at 205.601(j) 

14 as a plant or sole amendment in the proposal and 

15 a petition recommending that the proposal be sent 

16 to subcommittee, which I know that's been some of 

17 the concerns and some of the comments, questions, 

18 and Board members. Are there any other comments?

19 MR. GREENWOOD: Comments? Yes, 

20 Brian.

21 MR. CALDWELL: Yes. I guess I agree 

22 with some of the comments that said that the use 
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1 for carbon dioxide as an algicide or sanitizer was 

2 really well covered and I think it's done very --

3 seems like a positive decision there, but the --

4 how it could be used as a plant or soil amendment 

5 is really unclear. And so if we pass this as is, 

6 we're going to -- it seems like we're going to be 

7 passing the (j) part of it as the plant or soil 

8 amendment and without any discussion. And I'm 

9 uncomfortable with that.

10 MR. GREENWOOD: Thank you. And, Nate.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: I just wanted to give 

12 a big shout out to Logan who took on a proposal 

13 very early on in her NOSB career and has just slayed 

14 it.

15 MS. PETREY: Well, I wouldn't say that.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think you have.

17 MS. PETREY: That's for new members.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: The rest of the Board 

19 and so I don't -- I wanted to just recognize that 

20 it's a lot of work. And you've been stellar, so 

21 thank you for all you put into this.

22 MS. PETREY: Yes. Thank you, Nate.
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1 MR. GREENWOOD: Dilip?

2 DR. NANDWANI: This is a good work, 

3 Logan. And I just have a quick clarification, if 

4 you may. You are talking about the solid, as well 

5 as the liquid -- sorry, the gaseous form of the 

6 carbon dioxide, correct?

7 MS. PETREY: Yes.

8 DR. NANDWANI: Thank you.

9 MR. GREENWOOD: Mindee?

10 MS. JEFFERY: Thank you. Good work, 

11 Logan. I really appreciate you and all your 

12 dialogue as a Board member and I feel similarly 

13 about (j) wanting a little bit more depth of 

14 understanding there. And if we do end up doing 

15 more work on this, I might just need help 

16 understanding what it means on the natural uses 

17 because it will help me understand the specific 

18 need on the synthetic uses. And so if I miss 

19 something there, I apologize, but if we do go back 

20 to work on this, that would be some information 

21 I would love to know more about.

22 MR. GREENWOOD: Kim, did I see your 
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1 hand up or --

2 MS. HUSEMAN: You did, but then I 

3 lowered it. I'm getting the impression that 

4 there's -- and I have the reading through the 

5 comments as we're going through just had had 

6 similar concern as used as a plant or soil amendment 

7 and how that's incorporated. So I know this is 

8 about the subcommittee item.

9 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. Well, that's 

10 what I was going to suggest because we have --

11 people are concerned about (j) as a plant or soil 

12 amendment. So what I'd like to do is basically 

13 call for a vote to see if we want to bring it back 

14 to subcommittee and get some clarity for that 

15 before we vote on the petition.

16 MS. HUSEMAN: I second that motion.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Okay. So Rick 

18 motions to send this back to subcommittee, seconded 

19 by Kim. All right so in the vote to send back to 

20 subcommittee, we're going to start with Kim for 

21 the first.

22 MS. SMITH: Nate, Sorry.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: Sorry. Go ahead.

2 MS. SMITH: Is there any more 

3 discussion?

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Every time -- I will 

5 give this right.

6 MS. SMITH: That's okay. I'm going to 

7 be the Robert rules --

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: I appreciate you.

9 MS. SMITH: -- and not be, since I've 

10 been charged of the vote -- counting the vote. 

11 I just had a quick clarification in that we're 

12 sending the whole thing to vote. The motion is 

13 to send the whole thing back; is that's correct?

14 MS. PETREY: From what I understand, 

15 they won't pass anything through without it 

16 grouped. So that's the only reason why I don't 

17 want to a hold it up. But from my understanding, 

18 it needs the entire thing.

19 MS. SMITH: Okay. I just wanted to 

20 clarify the motion on the table. Thank you.

21 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. So I guess 

22 we're ready to vote then.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. 

2 Starting out with Kim.

3 MS. HUSEMAN: To move this back to 

4 subcommittee, my vote is yes.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Mindee?

6 MS. JEFFERY: Yes.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Allison?

8 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Dilip?

10 DR. NANDWANI: Yes.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Logan?

12 MS. PETREY: Yes.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kyla?

14 MS. SMITH: Yes.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Wood?

16 MR. TURNER: Yes.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Javier?

18 MR. ZAMORA: Yes.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Amy?

20 MS. BRUNCH: Yes.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Brian?

22 MR. CALDWELL: Yes.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: Jerry?

2 MR. D'AMORE: Yes.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Carolyn?

4 DR. DIMITRI: Yes.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Rick?

6 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Liz?

8 MS. GRAZNAK: Yes.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: And the Chair votes 

10 yes.

11 MS. PETREY: That is 15 yes, 0 no, 0 

12 abstain, recuse, or absent. The motion passes.

13 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Now we're on to 

14 15 sunsets, for review for the crop committee. 

15 The first one is soap-based herbicides, and that's 

16 actually mine. Soap-based herbicides have been 

17 around for a long time, they're reasonably popular, 

18 although sometimes I wonder how effective they are,

19 having used them myself. Written comments 

20 actually were positive for keeping it on. No one 

21 is particularly against them. They're basically 

22 just a fatty acid that has been saponified, turned 
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1 into a soap. There's general agreement 

2 internationally, they're on the list, and they 

3 turnover very quickly in the environment. So 

4 there really aren't any environmental concerns for 

5 them, it's just, you know, another use of something 

6 that's fairly benign. So I'll just stop there and 

7 see if there's any questions about herbicides, 

8 soap-based. Okay. Seeing none. I'll go on to 

9 Logan and biodegradable, bio-based mulch films, 

10 which we seem to talk about all the time.

11 MS. PETREY: We sure do. Okay. So 

12 I'll pick this up from Ace's. There was a hot topic 

13 of new Board members last year, because the 

14 annotation was changed to the 80 percent and we 

15 voted yes on that. That was yes for ten and I have 

16 four nos on that record. I don't know if that was 

17 right, somebody abstained. Anyways -- and so --

18 did we only have 14 members, but -- I'm getting 

19 off track. Okay. So biodegradable bio-based 

20 mulch film is used to suppress weeds, conserve 

21 water, and facilitate production of row crops. 

22 Past commenters have acknowledged that there are 
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1 currently very few options other than 

2 difficult-to-use paper mulch for the 100 percent 

3 bio-based BBMF, but have generally felt this 

4 listing should remain despite that there's no 100 

5 percent. However, at the fall of 2021, we voted 

6 to allow 80 percent because there are some on the 

7 brink to be allowed. And so this use is going to 

8 be to help, you know, with the incredible amount 

9 of plastic that is used and thrown in the landfills. 

10 And this is one of those that is a compromise. 

11 And although there is concern of what is 

12 lingering, you got 20 percent there, we're hoping 

13 that innovation really takes over in the 

14 marketplace and people will want, you know, to get 

15 closer to that 100 percent. But the question was, 

16 is there any new information on the availability 

17 of 100 percent and through the commenters there's 

18 been none available. So thank you, Rick.

19 MR. GREENWOOD: Thank you. Any 

20 comments, discussion about that? So do we say, 

21 we've talked about bio-based mulch seems like, or 

22 at least for me for about the last five years, but 
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1 anything -- I think this one now is fairly 

2 straightforward since we've had the other 

3 discussions. Okay. Seeing none, we'll go onto 

4 boric acid and that's Wood.

5 MR. TURNER: Thanks, Rick. We have a 

6 listing at 205.601(e) for boric acid as an 

7 insecticide, including a keracide or mite control. 

8 And also, include the boric -- I think it's also 

9 for structural pest control, with no direct contact 

10 with food or crops. This is material that we had 

11 heard from many, many in the community about in 

12 terms of it's -- the -- it's a necessity, I think 

13 in controlling ants and roaches in particular. 

14 You know, it's been -- there's been healthy debate 

15 on it over the years in terms of the fact that it's 

16 a material that you know, it's not entirely benign, 

17 although generally regarded as safe, but it is, 

18 something that -- there are -- it is considered 

19 to be preferable to other alternatives for these 

20 kinds of uses. There was, again, general support 

21 as there has been over the years for maintaining 

22 the material -- maintaining access to the material. 
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1 There was one statement of opposition and then 

2 one, I thought, compelling comment about 

3 potentially looking at the material annotated to 

4 clarify the use of it to avoid, let's see, to focus 

5 on the use of it as a gel, not in other formulations. 

6 So it may be worth looking at that in subcommittee 

7 in more detail. The suggestion around the gel 

8 usage was potentially in the context of a limited 

9 TR. That's all I have.

10 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you. 

11 Any questions, comments about boric acid? Okay. 

12 Seeing none we'll move on to Mindee again, sticky 

13 traps and barriers. This is 205.601(e) as an 

14 insecticide basically it's used in pest control 

15 and monitoring. And also used with traps as of 

16 production age. Doesn't come into contact with 

17 food so it's used in limited quantities and 

18 sometimes on tree trunks. The listing covers a 

19 wide range of traps and coatings. But there is 

20 some of the sticky traps do have petroleum wax, 

21 but overall, again, a very benign compound or I 

22 guess you can call it a compound. And generally 
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1 positive comments on the written comments. So I 

2 will stop there, see if there's any comments from 

3 our group. Okay. Seeing none we'll go to 

4 elemental sulfur and that's to Brian.

5 MR. CALDWELL: Okay, well, this might 

6 take a few more minutes, I don't know. But the 

7 situation with sulfur, once again, it is used very, 

8 in a lot of different applications within organic 

9 agriculture. And this at 205.61(h) was a new 

10 addition in 2019 as slug or snail bait. And the 

11 -- in terms of the comments, basically, there were 

12 five comments in favor of relisting, one against, 

13 and one that said more review was needed, and a 

14 couple of them said that even though it wasn't 

15 widely used according to some of the surveys that 

16 some of the certifiers did. Since it was only 

17 available since 2019, we need more time to see if 

18 it -- if the grower community will actually take 

19 up, use this product more. The somewhat confusing 

20 or somewhat tricky issue comes in with the inert 

21 ingredients. And these products are made with 

22 basically 99 percent inerts and it kind of just 
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1 once again raises the importance of us being able 

2 to deal with inerts in these formulations.

3

4 And the reason it's so important here 

5 is that the sulfur use seems to be very safe and 

6 have very little environmental impact. And there 

7 is another product that uses ferric phosphate for 

8 the same purpose as a slug bait. But what has been 

9 -- what has come up is that the inerts -- that one 

10 of the inerts that's used with that is a EDTA 

11 chelator, which is on the old list four, so it was 

12 -- it's sort of de facto in use and approved, but 

13 it makes the the ferric phosphate toxic to dogs. 

14 And I think there have been some issues where dogs, 

15 you know, gotten sick and I don't know if they've 

16 died. But anyways, it has been an issue that was 

17 brought up. And in fact the history of this is 

18 that the ferret phosphate product was brought up 

19 for a relisting under the sunset reviewing and 

20 almost voted down, but it was felt there was no 

21 alternative to to ferric phosphate. And since 

22 Notta (phonetic) was becoming more important in 
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1 organic and that tends to lead to more slugs and 

2 snails we wanted a product. But anyways, to make 

3 a long story short now, with this sulfur-based 

4 product for slug management, there is an 

5 alternative to ferric phosphate, and so it may 

6 change that whole situation. But the fact that 

7 99 percent of the ingredients in these sulfur-based 

8 or ferric phosphate-based products, 99 percent are 

9 inerts. And in the ferric phosphate, the inert 

10 has -- the interaction with the inert and the active 

11 ingredient has made the product toxic to dogs. 

12 These are important issues and it is totally 

13 unknown what the 99 percent inerts are in the 

14 commercial elemental sulfur slug baits. 

15 Evidently according to the MSDS, some of them do 

16 contain iron, but we don't know if it contains EDTA. 

17 It's just filling a little bit of 99 percent black 

18 box. So just to sum up very quickly, I sorry, I've 

19 taken so long about this, but as usual, seems like 

20 the more you delve in the more difficult it gets. 

21 But the actual elemental sulfur active ingredient 

22 in these products seems very benign and safe and 
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1 has low environmental impact. But we are once 

2 again commended to really do something about our 

3 inert situation. So that's kind of a side issue. 

4 That's really not the focus of this elemental 

5 sulfur, but it just brings it up very clearly.

6 MR. GREENWOOD: No. Thanks, Brian. 

7 We went through the same thing. I don't know if 

8 you were on the Board with the other snail bates 

9 and iron and the whole area as you know we struggled 

10 with is inert because they're not inert and that 

11 --

12 MR. CALDWELL: Right.

13 MR. GREENWOOD: -- they were misnamed 

14 at the very beginning, but we are, you know, we're 

15 to look at the key ingredient, which is either the 

16 iron or the sulfur. And so that's how we evaluate 

17 these. But obviously more work needs to be done. 

18 So any questions or comments for Brian? Okay. 

19 I'm seeing none. We'll go to Jerry, and he's 

20 obviously Mr. Copper and he has copper, fixed and 

21 then copper sulfate. So, Jerry.

22 MR. D'AMORE: And with your 
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1 permission, I'm going to do, both of these at the 

2 same time. We're not voting on them. Obviously, 

3 I won't get away with that next --

4 MR. GREENWOOD: No, I think that's fine.

5 MR. D'AMORE: Thank you. So the 

6 205.601, copper sulfate, coppers, fixed both as 

7 plant disease control. At the spring session, I 

8 will review the two materials together as they are 

9 both plant disease control and they share the same 

10 annotation. They also share the same 1995 TAP and 

11 the same 2011 TR. Further, our stakeholder 

12 questions for these two sunsets are exactly the 

13 same. Lastly, I presented copper sulfate at the 

14 fall of 2021 Board meeting for two distinct uses 

15 in aquatic rice systems and they were given another 

16 five years and I'll try to make that relevant in 

17 a minute.

18 The next part is something I wrote over 

19 the weekend, and I think has become a little bit 

20 more apropos in the last couple of days, and 

21 actually this morning as well. During the 2021 

22 sunset process, there was a relatively small, but 
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1 very persistent stakeholder group that expressed 

2 the opinion that we the NOSB was rubber stamping 

3 the coppers through the process and giving little 

4 space to continuous improvement and/or innovation. 

5 The 2021 research priorities proposal that was 

6 presented at the October 2021 Board meeting was 

7 helpful to show NOSB concern. There were four 

8 bullet points I'd like to highlight.

9 Number one, comprehensive systems 

10 based approach for managing individual crops in 

11 a way that decreases the need for copper-based 

12 materials, including research, crop rotations, 

13 sanitation practices, plant spacing, and other 

14 factors that influence disease. Number two, 

15 breeding plants that are resistant to diseases that 

16 copper controls. Three, developing alternative 

17 formulations from materials containing copper, so

18 that the amount developmental coppers is reduced. 

19 And four, developing biological agents that work 

20 on the same diseases, coppers now used on.

21 Continuing, we have asked for a new TR 

22 for these two sunset, which should be delivered 
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1 this June and thus available for our consideration 

2 during the sunset period. The lead paragraph to 

3 the four-page request for TR reads as follows: The 

4 review of the 2011 technical report on copper 

5 sulfate and other copper products highlighted five 

6 areas that should be expanded on an updated with 

7 the latest research. Number one, human health 

8 concerns, soil health and microbiota, application 

9 rates and accumulations in the soil, copper in the 

10 aquatic environment, and alternatives to 

11 copper-base products. In response to the two 

12 copper sunset documents presented a day, there were 

13 30 stakeholder comments with the overwhelming 

14 majority being written. This is the last thing 

15 I'll say and I'll say it very carefully. There 

16 was not one comment, written or oral that I could 

17 find that advocated for removing coppers during 

18 the review process. To be clear, there were quite 

19 a few that would like to see this material phased 

20 out over a longer period of time, but not a single 

21 one advocating its removal this go around. So I'll 

22 leave it there. Thank you.
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1 MR. GREENWOOD: Thanks, Jerry. And I 

2 think that's, you know, we see copper in a lot of 

3 other compounds, where we don't really want to use 

4 them. But until we get alternatives we're sort 

5 of stuck with them. So any comments for Jerry 

6 about copper, we've discussed copper quite a bit 

7 as you know. Okay. Javier?

8 MR. ZAMORA: Yes, copper is one of 

9 those things that growers need specially that 

10 cranberry, the apple growers, and some other 

11 people. And I'm in an array of usage in that, but 

12 I think it's a tool that we need, but I think we 

13 need to think of the future because the remnants 

14 of it is in the soil, I mean, it's copper. So I 

15 think as a Board we have to think of that, and I 

16 just keep pushing it for newer Board members or 

17 new generations to deal with it. I think, you 

18 know, I can only think of the metal bromide how 

19 it has been, you know, as new products come out 

20 for people that need it are developing new 

21 substances of new gases that could potentially help 

22 those growers. But copper is, it's -- we got to 
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1 think about the future. So just keep it in our 

2 minds and do something about it.

3 MR. GREENWOOD: No. You're 

4 absolutely right. And I think that's part of why 

5 we asked for the new TR and for the research, one 

6 of the research priorities. Okay. Yes. Thanks, 

7 Javier. So we now have polyoxin D zinc, and that's 

8 Brian again.

9 MR. CALDWELL: Thanks, Rick. 

10 Polyoxin D zinc salt is a synthetic, but it is based 

11 on a natural substance from soil microorganisms. 

12 But the zinc is added to it to prevent it from 

13 leeching and make it more effective in its use as 

14 a fungicide. And in terms of the comments, I 

15 counted 11 for re-lifting, one against, and another 

16 one urging more review. The overwhelming 

17 statements for -- from the growers, in the grower 

18 groups was that it's effective. And that's 

19 important because just as -- we just talked about 

20 copper and products like this, which are basically 

21 of natural origin, sometimes needing some 

22 tweaking, like the zinc salt, part of this one, 
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1 but they're becoming more and more common. And 

2 there's a lot of research going on with them. And 

3 they really do have the potential over the long 

4 run to reduce the amount of copper that is used 

5 in vegetable and fruit production. So that's very 

6 a positive thing. The growers are really wanted 

7 to keep it for sure on the list.

8 Now there were some questions that we 

9 put out there to the community. And the first one 

10 was: Is there concern that cross-resistance to 

11 polyoxin D, with some potential human health 

12 products. Is that a concern? And we didn't get 

13 much response about that. A couple -- in a couple 

14 of places, they said, well cross-resistance to 

15 products that currently do not exist, is not an 

16 issue, but if new closely-related products are 

17 started to be used for human health, then it becomes 

18 an issue. So currently it's not an issue, but it 

19 might be in the future. But for now, we don't need 

20 to be concerned about that. So essentially, I 

21 would say that the kind of -- the responses that 

22 we got were that it's a benign substance and it's 
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1 very effective. And so that's pretty much the 

2 summary, I believe, of the comments.

3 One thing that I did want to mention, 

4 one comment talked about a study that showed 

5 chromosomal aberrations in hamster cells. And 

6 that made me take a second look, but I looked at 

7 the primary source on that and actually, it was 

8 a study that was cited in EPA document saying that 

9 polyoxin should be exempted from residue tolerance 

10 and that they had found many -- several other 

11 studies that contradicted that. So that, you 

12 know, it sounded like something to be a little bit 

13 concerned about, but then evidently according to 

14 the EPA and these other studies, not. So I think 

15 I'll just leave it with that and we -- I just wanted 

16 to say that we will welcome more comments on this 

17 from the wider organic community. It does seem 

18 to be a very promising pest control material that 

19 we want to just do the right thing and do it right. 

20 So thanks.

21 MR. GREENWOOD: Thanks, Brian. 

22 Thanks for the deep dive into the literature. So 
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1 I see Logan has a question?

2 MS. PETREY: I have a comment.

3 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay.

4 MS. PETREY: I use polyoxin D, it is 

5 a great material. And just to talk about the 

6 copper reduction, probably used 80 percent less 

7 copper per sprays, because of this material, and 

8 it is more -- it is targeted towards fungicides 

9 which copper typically is for bacterial diseases 

10 but we also use it for fungicides too because there 

11 just aren't many things that do work. But polyoxin 

12 D really takes it away as using copper for a 

13 fungicide and more for bacteria side because 

14 polyoxin D doesn't have efficacy. I think it works 

15 on a heightened degradation, so when we found that, 

16 we really helped the health of the farm because 

17 it is specific to the fungicides and it's not 

18 killing the natural bacteria that we actually want 

19 on the leaf to populate it so that we are more 

20 resistant to infection. Also it's not phytotoxic 

21 or I haven't seen any phytotoxicity, whereas when 

22 we use copper consistently, we will see a tinge 
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1 or some kind of burn that you might get with some 

2 copper. So I'm huge -- greatly supporting this 

3 product. Thank you for the review, it's really 

4 good and extensive.

5 MR. GREENWOOD: Thanks, Logan. It's 

6 always great to have somebody on the Board that 

7 uses one of these products so you can give us a 

8 real data. Any other questions on polyoxin D 

9 before we go on? Okay. Seeing none, we go to Amy 

10 and humic acids.

11

12 MS. BRUNCH: Okay. Thank you, Rick. 

13 Humic acid, so this is a synthetic substance 

14 allowed for use in organic production. And what 

15 we're looking at here is naturally occurring 

16 deposit water and alkalide extracts only. So the 

17 use of these they can be soil applied or full year 

18 applied depending on the specific product and humic 

19 acid really affects the soil fertility by making 

20 micronutrients more readily available to plants, 

21 than contributing actual nutrients to the soil. 

22 So mainly as a catalyst. There's pretty 
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1 widespread use amongst stakeholders in the 

2 community of this substance. One thing to 

3 highlight through environmental issues, you know, 

4 this particular substance in general isn't known 

5 to cause environmental issues, however, there were 

6 a couple of commenters that cited concerns just 

7 on the mining manufacturing process in the disposal 

8 of this extractant. There was a lot of comments 

9 in favor, again, of this substance. Majority of 

10 the commenters stated that this does provide 

11 benefits to their farms, indicates a widespread 

12 use because one certifier in particular said 718 

13 members have humic acids on their OSP. It also 

14 helps some of those lighters soils. And just 

15 beefing nutritional benefit. OMRI also states 

16 there's 251 products registered with humic acid. 

17 However, the TR indicates that there's a lack of 

18 standard analysis for the substances marketed as 

19 humic acid. So you can see that in the comments, 

20 some folks said that these didn't provide any 

21 benefit. But again, the majority of people said 

22 they did provide benefit to their farms and fields.
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1 One additional thing to bring up to 

2 light, and I thought this was really interesting. 

3 This is looking at the actual extractant itself 

4 because there is not a limit on the -- what type 

5 of extraction used except for it does say let's 

6 say alkaline. Potassium hydroxide is the most 

7 commonly used extractant. And as OMRI indicated, 

8 there is an assessment that can be done to see if 

9 potassium hydroxide has been fortified. But other 

10 extractants don't necessarily have framework for 

11 assessments. So looking at that fortification 

12 piece of synthetic extractions is really 

13 important. And that was something that we can also 

14 take back to subcommittee to discuss on the 

15 particular extractant. The two most recent 

16 reviews, though the NOSB found humic acids to be 

17 compliant with OFPA and this is been part of our 

18 sunset process for quite awhile.

19 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you, Amy. 

20 Any questions? Yes, Javier?

21 MR. ZAMORA: Amy or any Board member, 

22 can you guys share a little bit about what would 
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1 be the difference between the humic acid's usage 

2 as what Logan, (j) on carbon dioxide was talked 

3 -- presented because it seems like both -- they 

4 do -- they enhance the nutrients available to 

5 plants in soil. But can somebody talk a little 

6 bit about that? I mean, it seems like --

7 MS. PETREY: Well, we --

8 MR. ZAMORA: I don't know. I had 

9 another question about that.

10 MS. PETREY: More of when we request 

11 more information about CO2 being a plant and soil 

12 amendment. So stay tuned unless Amy, you know, 

13 and if you know, I'm going to be a little upset 

14 here that we didn't. I'm kidding.

15 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Thanks, Logan. 

16 Amy, anything to add?

17 MS. BRUNCH: No. Sure. Yes. I'm 

18 just -- I'm readily awaiting your deep dive on that, 

19 Logan, in particular to the soil. But in terms 

20 of this product, Javier, this is, a little bit 

21 different. This isn't necessarily a gas. It's 

22 an actual physical substance and mainly applied 
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1 liquid but can be applied in a soil dry form. This 

2 would just, you know, the comments associated with 

3 it say you can reduce your nitrogen fertilizer, 

4 removes toxins from the soil, it acts, you know, 

5 as a catalyst to make the nutrients that are in 

6 the soil more available and then it works on your 

7 soil structure over all. So you know, that's a 

8 good question. I think this isn't in particular 

9 a fertilizer. It's more of a soil conditioner. 

10 So that's how I'd answer that. Hopefully that 

11 -- does that answer your question? Okay.

12 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. I started to see 

13 it as a vitamin.

14 MS. BRUNCH: Yes.

15 MR. GREENWOOD: Something, but anyhow, 

16 Dilip?

17 DR. NANDWANI: Okay. Since Javier has 

18 asked about little information about humic acid 

19 and I've been working on humic acid research past 

20 few years and I'll just add some information for 

21 his sake and I hope it might be helpful. So about 

22 carbon dioxide, Logan has already explained and 
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1 humic substances, you know, it's it's a broad class 

2 of organic compounds and it derived from 

3 humification of decaying plant materials and 

4 microbial residues that includes fulvic acid, 

5 humic acid, and humin. Now for your information, 

6 nowadays, fulvic acid is also available 

7 commercially as well as humic acid, okay? And 

8 there is a lot of chemistry in it and I'm not going 

9 to go into the detail, but wanted to just a couple 

10 of other things that fulvic acid is soluble under 

11 all these conditions and the humic acid is soluble 

12 at higher pH, but it become insoluble at pH lower 

13 than 2. And some benefits, as I already explained, 

14 that improves the fertilizer efficiency, or 

15 reducing the soil compaction. And also it has a 

16 direct, you know, improvement in the overall plant 

17 biomass effects on plant growth, and the use of 

18 humic substances can in increase this root growth 

19 and uptake of some nutrients such as nitrogen, 

20 iron, phosphorous, potassium, calcium, and 

21 magnesium. So it allows tolerance to aerating 

22 stress such as salinity. And it -- I think I'll 
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1 stop here. It comes in microbial and-non 

2 microbial as well, ideally. I'll stop there. I 

3 hope this helps, Javier. Thank you.

4 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. No. Thanks, 

5 that's good information. So anyone else before 

6 we go on to Amy again? And this is micronutrients 

7 soluble boron products.

8

9 MS. BRUNCH: Okay. And thank you, 

10 Dilip. I appreciate your extra comments there. 

11 Yes. On in terms of soluble boron products, this 

12 is as planned course with or this is listed in 

13 205.601(j) as plant or soil amendments and I know 

14 Logan's going to cover the other micronutrients 

15 here. In this particular instance, we actually 

16 did requests an updated TR just to deconstruct 

17 soluble boron products from the original TR in 

18 2010, that was more comprehensive on all 

19 micronutrients. But soluble boron is a crop 

20 micronutrient that can be sole applied or again, 

21 applied full yearly according to the TR, when 

22 compared to other recognized plant micronutrients 
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1 deficiency in boron is the most common. Boron 

2 deficiency is responsible for significant crop 

3 losses, whether in volume, quality and that's an 

4 annual thing. So this has been on the national 

5 list since it was published in 2000. This one is 

6 actually pretty straightforward, majority of the 

7 comments were in favor of relisting this. This 

8 is -- it's a micronutrient again, so it's a very 

9 minor input with a very major implication to 

10 farmer's bottom line was one commenter's 

11 statement. And it does help the ability to just 

12 correct those nutrient deficiencies which is 

13 really important in organic production is just to 

14 make that well balanced soil. With that and just 

15 kind of a brief overview, but I invite questions.

16 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Any questions? 

17 Comments? Okay. Seeing none, then we're back 

18 to Logan for more micronutrients.

19 MS. PETREY: Yes, for the others. You 

20 don't listen. Okay. So micronutrients, the 

21 sulfates, carbonates, oxides or silicates of zinc, 

22 copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and 
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1 cobalt, that one always catches me up. But at 

2 205.601(j) as plant or soil amendments with the 

3 annotation that they cannot be used as defoliant, 

4 or sorry, or desiccant. And those made from 

5 nitrates or chlorides are not allowed. 

6 Micronutrient deficiency must be documented by 

7 salt or tissue testing or other documented methods, 

8 same with the boron. And although these are micro, 

9 they are essential, and we have had over 90 percent 

10 support in the oral and -- or in the written 

11 comments. So they are required in very small 

12 quantities. Although some forms of 

13 micronutrients are found in the soil, many 

14 producers find deficiencies of some or all of the 

15 micronutrients on this list. Listing are made up 

16 of both compounds and natural minerals, and after 

17 the physical processing such as breaking or 

18 grinding, these can be used as micronutrients. 

19 Micronutrients are also considered heavy metals, 

20 but the annotation prevents contamination by 

21 restricting issues to correct a deficiency. And 

22 again, we've had overwhelming support for these. 
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1 Any questions?

2 MR. GREENWOOD: Questions for Logan? 

3 Yes, Dilip.

4 DR. NANDWANI: This is really nice that 

5 to hear these lot of micronutrients. Can I quickly 

6 ask about this, there are some other 

7 micronutrients, also are we going to present 

8 separately? They are also very important for, you 

9 know, organic agriculture crop production such as 

10 maybe iodine or something else.

11 MS. PETREY: Right. Like silica on 

12 it. Sometimes we may see that that is essential 

13 or not, but, Jerry, do you know? Does anybody know 

14 on that? Or Nate, if there's a come up? I'm not 

15 sure if there -- where their sunsets are, but --

16 DR. NANDWANI: Okay. They may be 

17 separate sunsets.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: Right, exactly. So 

19 in rotation, but -- Kyla, go ahead.

20 DR. NANDWANI: Thank you.

21 MS. SMITH: I mean, I think -- correct 

22 me if I'm wrong, and all the national list like 
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1 up right in front of me, but I think this is --

2 let me just pull it up before I say something that 

3 I don't want to say. Who's going to be quicker, 

4 me or Jared? Let's race.

5 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes, maybe Jared could 

6 answer that.

7 MR. CLARK: Yes. These are the two 

8 listings under that micronutrient header, but I 

9 will say that, you know, these are synthetic 

10 versions of these micronutrients that are allowed. 

11 The non-synthetic micronutrients are allowed by 

12 virtue of being non-synthetic.

13 MS. PETREY: Great answer, Jared. 

14 Thank you. Thank you, Dilip for the question, 

15 though.

16 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you. 

17 Any other questions for Logan? Okay. So why 

18 don't we go on then to Wood with vitamins C and 

19 E.

20

21 MR. TURNER: Thanks, Rick. We have a 

22 listing for vitamins C and E at 205.601(j) as plant 
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1 or soil amendments. These have been TR in 2015, 

2 as recently as 2015. They previously have been 

3 bundled with, thiamine or vitamin B1. In the 

4 previous sunset review, vitamin B1 was peeled off 

5 and recommended for removal from the list. It's 

6 my understanding that that material is still in 

7 rule-making to remove that material. So there 

8 were some comments, persistent comments -- well, 

9 one commenter said keep B1 off the list. Take B1 

10 off the list and also take off vitamin C and E but 

11 that was the only commenter that we've heard asking 

12 for that. I would say the comments have been 

13 fairly limited on this. This is a -- these are 

14 materials that we all sort of generally know fairly 

15 well. I would say that the TR in 2015 was helpful 

16 in sort of, continuing to maintain interest in 

17 keeping these on the list. But there was a lack 

18 of really practical information about how these 

19 materials are used. And I think that's reflected 

20 in the comments which is very little -- very few 

21 comments and very few organizations that have --

22 growers who are using these materials. There was, 
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1 though, I just want to acknowledge one particular, 

2 and I think -- and thank this commenter for actually 

3 focusing on the question that we asked, which was, 

4 you know, help with any practical applications of 

5 these materials so that we could really understand 

6 how well they're being used. The one commenter 

7 did indicate that vitamin C plays and cited 

8 research on this, the vitamin C is actually helping 

9 protect plants from smog damage and even alluded 

10 to the fact that that protection from air pollution 

11 damage, you know, had some climate change 

12 applications as well. So I just wanted to point 

13 that out that I did appreciate that feedback about 

14 how this -- how vitamin C can actually be supportive 

15 in particular of that particular issue. That same 

16 commenter also supported keeping vitamin E on the 

17 list as well. So that's what I have for now.

18 MR. GREENWOOD: Okay. Thanks, Wood. 

19 That is the positive of looking at the written 

20 and oral comments, getting all the other 

21 perspective, I think. I know for myself, I always 

22 got an awful lot out of them, even though there's 
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1 2,300 pages to go through it. So it's certainly 

2 worthwhile. Any other questions for Wood? Okay. 

3 So we'll go now back to Logan with squid 

4 byproducts.

5

6 MS. PETREY: Thank you. All right. 

7 squid byproducts at 205.601(j) as plant or soil 

8 amendments with byproducts from food waste and food 

9 waste processing only. And can be used with a pH 

10 to justify -- to adjust the pH, excuse me, with 

11 sulfuric or citric or phosphoric acid. The amount 

12 of acid shall not exceed what the minimum needed 

13 to lower the pH to 3.5. So just a little bit of 

14 background, the squid byproduct, the squid are 

15 commercially harvested using nets directly above 

16 spawning grounds during mating season and just the 

17 background on that as well is that squid will die 

18 shortly after reproduction. And so as far as an 

19 environmental concern or biodiversity concern, 

20 there isn't a concern and it is restricted to this 

21 use or to this fishing. Also, these fisheries have 

22 management councils and the management includes 
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1 seasonal catch limits, timed fishery closures, 

2 administration of permit insurance, and 

3 limitations on using lights to attract squid to 

4 ensure uninterrupted spawning. So they do have 

5 the regulations on there to protect those species. 

6 It's not under the liquid -- or the fish because 

7 it is a mollusk, not a fish, although in the 

8 international acceptances, it seems that in 

9 multiple areas they did combine it with fish and 

10 so squid is not specific. The use of this is for 

11 a fertilizer and it can usually range for a 2-2-2 

12 to a 3-3-3 or so, so we're not talking about very 

13 high levels and as far as the commenters, we had 

14 over 85 percent were for the use as the annotation. 

15 Thank you.

16 MR. GREENWOOD: Thank you, Logan. Any 

17 questions for Logan on squid byproducts? I don't 

18 know how you ended up with so many things, Logan.

19 MS. PETREY: I don't know. I'm just 

20 kidding.

21 MR. GREENWOOD: You're almost done. 

22 Okay. Next we have lead salts and that's Javier. 
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1 This is your first time through.

2 MR. ZAMORA: Yes, good. Buenos dias 

3 a todos. Lead salts on the national list under 

4 205.602(d) known synthetic substances prohibited 

5 for inorganic crop production. There's been 

6 several public comments not only for the public 

7 but organic certifiers and national organizations 

8 which most of them, if not all, are in favor of 

9 keeping lead salts on the national list as 

10 prohibited substances. It is worth mentioning 

11 that the leads inhibited seed germination, root 

12 elongation, seedling developing, lung growth, and 

13 it's toxic to plants and can remain in the soil 

14 for up to 2,000 years. That is all I have and thank 

15 you for making it so easy for me, so it was very 

16 nice with this.

17 MR. GREENWOOD: So I told you it 

18 wouldn't be too bad, Javier, so thanks very much.

19 MR. ZAMORA: Love you.

20 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes. So obviously, we 

21 want that on the list as a prohibited substance 

22 and we have some other things like that. And I 
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1 think it's good that it stays prohibited. Any 

2 comments for Javier? Okay. Thank you. So the 

3 last one is tobacco dust. And for some reason it's 

4 Logan again.

5 MS. PETREY: This one's super easy. 

6 It's okay. Hey, Javier, you got the right 205.602 

7 I've learned, grab those. So yes, tobacco dusk 

8 205.602, which is also nicotine sulfate. Just to 

9 note that this has been on the prohibited list since 

10 the inception of the organic regulations and it 

11 is there because it is a hazardous substance for 

12 OSHA and but it can be used or was used as a natural 

13 insecticide for pest control. It is made from --

14 as a byproduct from commercial processing of 

15 tobacco products or I guess you can mix tobacco 

16 and water, make it home-made. But it remained --

17 has been on the prohibited list and all comments 

18 are to keep it there.

19 MR. GREENWOOD: Thank you. Any 

20 questions or comments for Logan again on tobacco 

21 dust? We heard a lot about this a few years ago 

22 when we were looking at the suckering of tobacco 
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1 plants with alcohols and lot of disease in humans 

2 working in the tobacco industry. And so it is a 

3 very toxic product. So that actually, believe it 

4 or not, completes our sunsets. And I want to thank 

5 all of the committee members. I mean, we had a 

6 lot of work to do. Some great discussion in

7 committee and I think we've come out with a pretty 

8 decent products. I want to thank everybody and 

9 also for the rest of the Board members for 

10 discussion. So I will turn it back to Nate.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Just outstanding 

12 work. Thank you, Rick. Thank you, crops 

13 subcommittee, that was great. So on our schedule 

14 we normally would break for lunch, but we have 

15 fairly minimal amount to cover before the end of 

16 the day. So I was hoping if it's all right with 

17 the Board to break for 15 minutes here. Come back, 

18 go through PDS, we'll then go through DTO, which 

19 we differed from yesterday and then we have an 

20 opportunity to hear if there are any more questions 

21 on CACS, which we're cutting it short. And then 

22 we'll run over the work agenda and then closing 
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1 remarks and a big old additional welcome to our 

2 new members. So if it's all right just to break 

3 and then we'll come back, get through this three 

4 items, and wrap her up. So if we could have the 

5 slide and I'll try to do this math. But I think

6 we're going to go to eight after or ten. Thank 

7 you. See you all in just a bit.

8 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

9 went off the record at 1:54 p.m. and resumed at 

10 2:09 p.m.)

11 AUTOMATED VOICE: Recording in 

12 progress.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

14 you, everyone, for hustling through that break. 

15 Hope we got a little reprieve. Next, we're going 

16 to to dive into policy development subcommittee, 

17 PDS. And I will hand it over to Mindee.

18 MS. JEFFERY: Thank you, Nate. I'm 

19 just going to stall for one second here, so 

20 everybody can --

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes. Not a worry.

22 MS. JEFFERY: -- come through. In the 
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1 meantime, as the policy development subcommittee 

2 chair, just wanted to let the stakeholders know 

3 that we really heard you on the persistent 

4 questions for meeting timing. And I wouldn't say 

5 we have an answer or a home for those questions 

6 yet. But that we do have some inspiration going 

7 on. And I am imagining several one-on-one full 

8 court basketball match ups amongst the 

9 subcommittee chairs to see who's going to win the 

10 contest of where this conversation will live. But 

11 so, you know, folks, we're listening out here. 

12 Thank you very much for all your persisting 

13 comments on the subject of meeting timing. So are 

14 we all here? Is everybody ready? I think we're 

15 close. I'm still kind of looking for a couple 

16 more.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes, maybe one more 

18 minute as folks trickle back in.

19 MR. TURNER: And we need a proper 

20 basketball game, Mindee. There's no question in 

21 my mind.

22 MR. POWELL-PALM: I feel like 
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1 Sacramento we actually you have to show up with 

2 --

3 MS. JEFFERY: Man.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Jerry's ready to go.

5 MS. PETREY: That's what I said too. 

6 I was going to say that to Mindee.

7 MS. JEFFERY: I don't think there's 

8 going to be any surprise when Wood takes me down 

9 in that one-on-one battle.

10 MS. PETREY: It's so funny when we're 

11 all in the Zoom rooms, though. There's like no 

12 -- like I have no idea how tall anybody --

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Everyone's the same 

14 height.

15 MS. JEFFERY: Okay. How are you 

16 feeling, Jerry? Are you ready?

17 MR. D'AMORE: Yes, ma'am.

18 MS. JEFFERY: Okay. Hold on. Let's 

19 just give it one more look because I think there's 

20 two more. I was waiting three more. Sorry. I 

21 might have jumped the gun on you, Jerry.

22 MR. POWELL-PALM: If you're there, 
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1 Liz, Javier, or Logan and you want to just flash 

2 your cameras on real quick to let us know you're 

3 there or just give a shout out.

4 MR. D'AMORE: Well, we've got the time 

5 to give the time, I think, don't we?

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think we do. 

7 We're doing pretty good.

8 MR. D'AMORE: Yes.

9 MR. TURNER: I think in his defense 

10 he's doing proper farming. He's checking on his 

11 crew and making sure everything is going smoothly. 

12 So let's give him a minute.

13 MR. D'AMORE: So how is it that we 

14 settled on basketball? I mean, as a wrestler that 

15 was just kind of tough for me to take, but I say.

16 MS. JEFFERY: Well, do you really want 

17 to hear the truth of my metaphor, Jerry? The 

18 founding -- one of the founding principles of the 

19 game of basketball was the spiritual enrichment 

20 of the community and I view organic much like I 

21 view basketball. So there you have it.

22 MR. D'AMORE: Well, can't argue with 
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1 any piece of that.

2 MR. TURNER: And as a lifelong 

3 basketball player, I'd hop on that train with 

4 Mindee because I think it's an apt metaphor.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Well, let's get 

6 started here. Liz said she has -- is, just about 

7 to hop on.

8 MR. D'AMORE: Do I have your 

9 permission, Chair?

10 MS. JEFFERY: Yes, sir. Thank you 

11 very much.

12 MR. D'AMORE: Not at all. Thank you. 

13 And so policy development subcommittee proposal. 

14 And it is a policy and procedures manual, PPM 

15 revision. The proposal before you had its origins 

16 in a spring 2021 discussion document and was 

17 introduced at that time under the heading, 

18 Amendments to the PPM to provide clarity and to 

19 address protocols for oral and written 

20 presentations. The policy development 

21 subcommittee has reviewed the suggested changes 

22 and brings us out of subcommittee as a proposal 
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1 for full Board discussion and vote. There were 

2 five total stakeholder comments addressing this 

3 spring 2020 proposal with four approving of the 

4 work and one firmly against the proposal. The 

5 opposing commenter had concerns regarding certain 

6 terms not being well enough defined and the use 

7 of the word impugn as not appropriate. This is 

8 to be seen in -- well, it's not -- I thought it 

9 was a comment, but any way, it's done in red on 

10 the document. One of the supporters of the 

11 proposal was also not happy with the word impugn 

12 and offered malign as an alternative. Generally 

13 speaking, the commentators recognized the 

14 revisions to the PPM as minor clerical changes to 

15 provide clarity and as a process to encourage a 

16 respectful comment environment. As one of the 

17 commenters is -- who was opposed to the proposal 

18 made reference to FACA requirements, I'm going to 

19 give our chair, Mindee Jeffery, the floor to take 

20 any questions or give her own comments to FACA as 

21 she sees fit. And that's it.

22 MS. JEFFERY: Great. Thank you, 
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1 Jerry, I did appreciate. I think the public 

2 comments. And so I went back and took a look at 

3 FACA and looked through section 10 for meeting 

4 conduct. And therein listed under A1, we are in 

5 compliance with the notion that the meeting is open 

6 to the public. And looking at A3, it lists, 

7 interested persons shall be permitted to attend, 

8 appear before, or file statements with any advisory 

9 committee subject to such reasonable rules or 

10 regulations as the administrator may prescribe. 

11 So the allowing of written and oral comments, 

12 submissions clears our responsibilities under 

13 FACA. And as the PPM functions to assess the NOSB 

14 in the implementations of its duties under author, 

15 these are the PPM are our reasonable rules and 

16 regulations for expectations around the public's 

17 interaction with. Extension is repetition of 

18 what's already in written comments. And this 

19 addition update produces alignment. I think it's 

20 pretty clear that we're just codifying a level of 

21 respect and that we definitely want to hear all 

22 the facts and all the data from every stakeholder. 
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1 And we want to hear all the reputations as facts 

2 and data. So we're just keeping it classy really 

3 here with this update.

4 MR. D'AMORE: Playing nice.

5 MS. JEFFERY: Does anyone have 

6 questions?

7 MR. GREENWOOD: Kyla, is that a raised 

8 hand?

9 MS. SMITH: Jenny, do you want to go 

10 first?

11 DR. TUCKER: I would like to suggest 

12 that that becoming new a subtitle to the PPM, keep 

13 it classy. Very, very nice.

14 MS. SMITH: I just had a question about 

15 some comments that made the distinction between 

16 the word impugn and malign, and what your all 

17 thoughts were on that.

18 MS. JEFFERY: Sure. Thank you. I 

19 think we all like this suggestion, and since we're 

20 reflecting consistency in the PPM, we felt like 

21 we can put that in our back pocket and when or if 

22 the PPM gets updated again, we liked the word. 
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1 But because we're reflecting consistency, we're 

2 sticking with the word as is. I don't see any other 

3 hands sometimes when we're in this side gallery 

4 mode, I don't always see you, but it sounds like 

5 no other comments. We can move to a vote.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can. So we 

7 have a vote for motion by Mindee and seconded by 

8 Jerry. We're going to begin voting. I believe 

9 with Mindee? Is that right Kyla?

10 MS. SMITH: That's what I have. Yes.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. So 

12 Mindee, your vote please.

13 MS. JEFFERY: Yes.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Okay. Yes. For 

15 Mindee. Allison?

16 MS. JOHNSON: Yes

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Dilip?

18 DR. NANDWANI: Yes.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Logan?

20 MS. PETREY: Yes.

21 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kyla?

22 MS. SMITH: Yes.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: Wood?

2 MR. TURNER: Yes.

3 MR. POWELL-PALM: Javier?

4 MR. ZAMORA: Yes.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Amy?

6 MS. BRUNCH: Yes.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Brian?

8 MR. CALDWELL: Yes.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Jerry?

10 MR. D'AMORE: Yes.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Carolyn?

12 DR. DIMITRI: Yes.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Rick?

14 MR. GREENWOOD: Yes.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Liz?

16 MS. GRAZNAK: Yes.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kim?

18 MS. HUSEMAN: Yes.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: And the Chair votes, 

20 yes.

21 MS. SMITH: That makes it 15 yes, 0 no, 

22 0 abstain, recuse, or absent. The motion passes.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. Again, 

2 a big shout out to Mindee for the work and Jerry 

3 for the work on this. It's a small but mighty 

4 committee that PDS. There's only three of us on 

5 it.

6 MS. JEFFERY: I'm given that to Jerry. 

7 Good job, Jerry.

8 MR. D'AMORE: Thank you.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. So we're 

10 cruising along. Deferred votes. Yesterday we 

11 did not have time to get to DTO. That will be 

12 discussed and lead -- the discussion led by Wood. 

13 So if Wood you would be up for going over GTO now.

14 MR. TURNER: Sure.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: And draw back into 

16 materials.

17

18 MR. TURNER: Sure. So I guess this is 

19 second day extension of the materials section of 

20 the agenda. So a reminder to everyone that we have 

21 a discussion document on distilled tall oil that 

22 I think you've all had a chance to review. We have 
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1 a petitioner who has -- is interested in seeing 

2 distilled tall oil be listed as 205.601(m) and 

3 205.603(e) as a synthetic substance permitted in 

4 organic agriculture and used in particular as an 

5 inert ingredient and as an adjuvant for use to 

6 solvent, sticker, anti-leaching agent, and time 

7 release agent in pesticides. So we've had -- I 

8 think is we heard in verbal comments. I think I 

9 heard someone reference 22 months. This is a 

10 petition that's gone through several rounds of 

11 documentation requests and input from the 

12 petitioner. We've had a TR on this as well and 

13 just to give you a little bit of history. It was 

14 a previous petition on this in '08 that ultimately 

15 ended up being rejected, but it was not DTO, it 

16 was tall oil specifically. And there was a 

17 concern, I think in the petition that -- in the 

18 TR that there had been a lack of clarity between 

19 a material referred to as crude tall oil and 

20 distilled crude oil. They're too -- we did want 

21 to make sure in the TR this time that they were 

22 distinctly represented and distinctly address 
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1 because they may have differences. And so that's 

2 an important issue that I want to make sure people 

3 understand that this petition, even though there's 

4 some history on tall oil being reviewed in previous 

5 iterations of this Board. You know, we're trying 

6 to understand more specifically this petition in 

7 the context of the distilled tall oil.

8 But I think more importantly, and you 

9 heard in my introduction, the issue here is that 

10 we have a material that is being petitioned. That 

11 is intended to be used as an inert or adjutant, 

12 not as an active ingredient. And the use is to 

13 augment the functionality and sequestration of 

14 approved substances in organic production. As 

15 we've all noted in a variety of different contexts, 

16 however, we have no process currently today for 

17 how to actually evaluate inert ingredients. And 

18 I will say that in our subcommittee, we've had a 

19 number of different discussions on this topic over 

20 time. Looking at the material on the merits, at 

21 raising a number of different questions as a group 

22 about the fact that this material, again, I don't 
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1 want to conflate a lot of issues here, but I think 

2 there's a lot of complexity here. One is whether 

3 or not -- one is the fact that this is a petition 

4 for an inert ingredient. And two, is whether or 

5 not the material, as we understand it, isn't --

6 functions as an inert ingredient or an active 

7 ingredient. So I think that's been really an 

8 interesting part of our process, concern about 

9 whether the rates that are -- that have been 

10 indicated as being kind of the rates of application 

11 for this material really do allow it to function 

12 as an inert ingredient versus an active ingredient. 

13 So I just -- that's been a really interesting part 

14 of this process.

15 I do want to point out in the discussion 

16 document, however, that there is an unfortunate 

17 typo. And it's on the -- in the third paragraph 

18 that the section called the inert versus active. 

19 The document says the petitioner has submitted 

20 additional information -- I'm sorry. The 

21 petitioner has since responded to the use of the 

22 substance as an inert is intended to produce the 
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1 effects of an insecticide. I want to be clear. 

2 That's not what the petitioner said. The 

3 petitioner sensory responded that the use of the 

4 substance as an inert is not intended to produce 

5 the effects of an active insecticide. So this has 

6 been the petitioner's perspective on this 

7 particular issue that is not an insecticide. 

8 However, I will say that those issues have come 

9 up in the context of our conversation as a 

10 subcommittee on this material. And I think we're 

11 still, you know, really still kind of -- still 

12 working through those kinds of questions.

13

14 I want to point out as well that you 

15 know, I don't want to -- I think we've learned a 

16 lot about this material and I think we've come to 

17 this issue with a very open mind. Despite the fact 

18 that we don't have a process for evaluating inert 

19 ingredients. I think we've learned a lot about 

20 material. We've certainly recognize that there's 

21 a potential for this material to provide some 

22 benefits including sequestration of pesticides and 
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1 micronutrients from leaching out of the soil. I 

2 think that's -- well, leaching into groundwater 

3 in the case of pesticides or leaching out of the 

4 soil in the case of micronutrients. So I just --

5 I do want to point that out and I do also want to 

6 point out that there are other context where this 

7 material certainly in the context of food 

8 packaging, has been identified by FDA as the one 

9 of these generally regarded the safe materials, 

10 so I -- that would you have an open mind on material. 

11 However, we do not have a path forward on this 

12 and so I did want to -- I didn't want indicate that 

13 there is -- there was a lot of interest from the 

14 community on this. I think some commenters 

15 acknowledge the complexities that are raised by 

16 this petition and unfortunately, the timing of this 

17 petition, given the fact that we're trying to 

18 figure out this -- get some guidance on how to 

19 actually handle inert ingredients, it's 

20 complicated. You know, certainly there's been 

21 some commenters who have suggested that we should 

22 just reject the petition outright, as it is. Let 
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1 me say -- let me see here as well. And then quite 

2 a bit of responses from I think the community that 

3 the petitioner and the petitioner community of 

4 producers of these types of materials that want 

5 to see these kind of materials move forward because 

6 of the functional benefits of material -- the 

7 potential functional benefits of materials like 

8 DTO.

9 So, you know, it's been an interesting 

10 process to sort of hear from the community and try 

11 to make sense of sort of, you know, what the right 

12 pathway is. But I just wanted to continue to go 

13 back to this point that until we have a path forward 

14 on this, until we have a clear pathway on how that 

15 -- how to evaluate inert materials that we 

16 recognize or discussing ad nauseum, about how, you 

17 know, may have -- may be listed on obsolete lists 

18 managed by other agencies and so on and so forth. 

19 We're kind of in a little bit of limbo period here. 

20 And unfortunately, it creates a situation where 

21 we have a petitioner who is eager to see some 

22 decision made on this material and we have no path 
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1 forward. We have no reasonable path forward, we 

2 have no imperative on this, on how to manage this 

3 process. So that's -- I'll pause for a minute 

4 because again, we -- I want to indicate this is 

5 a discussion document. We would welcome continued 

6 responses to questions to our stakeholders in this 

7 material over the next couple of months. But I 

8 do want to flag this very important question that, 

9 you know, I'm not sure what the responses to those 

10 questions will mean, you know, if we don't have 

11 a path forward on this. So again, no vote. I'm 

12 trying to outline this as clearly as I can. I hope 

13 this is helpful to those who don't -- who haven't 

14 been as involved in these discussions in the 

15 subcommittee, but I'll pause for a minute, Nate, 

16 and see if there's any questions we can discuss 

17 here.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: Mindee, please go 

19 ahead.

20 MS. JEFFERY: Thank you. Honestly, I 

21 wanted to just take a minute and really appreciate 

22 the petitioner because I know that we've gone back 
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1 to them and gotten more information from them. 

2 And they've been really in a great dialog in that 

3 process. And I really appreciate the number of 

4 written comments on this subject and the level of 

5 expertise people were sending to us. Appreciate 

6 knowing that oral comments [inaudible]. The best 

7 piece of advice I got from [inaudible] started 

8 looking at the California Organic Products 

9 Advisory Committee was to remember that 

10 regulations take time because it's good for 

11 society. And then I just wanted to appreciate 

12 Jenny's talking about the advanced notice of 

13 rule-making on this subject and look forward to 

14 seeing where that goes and how that dovetails into 

15 our process and seeing when, if, and how evaluation 

16 of inerts comes back across aisle as it were.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: If I might in with 

18 a quick question for Jenny. I think if I've got 

19 my timeline right. Oh, sorry. Yes. You have 

20 your headset. In -- I think it was 2014, NOP asked 

21 NOSB for a process for reviewing ancillary 

22 substances and a review or recommendation came out 
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1 in 2016 and the NOP said they were reviewing it. 

2 I was just wondering if there's any update on that 

3 review process from 2016 recommendation on 

4 ancillary substances?

5 DR. TUCKER: Yes, that one I was 

6 listening the whole time. You just -- you can hear 

7 me better when I'm talking on my headset than when 

8 I'm yelling at my computer. So that's why I 

9 plugged it in.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Sure.

11 DR. TUCKER: So that is one we have not 

12 moved forward with ancillary substances since that 

13 work stopped, so I don't have any update on that. 

14 I believe and I'm frantically hoping somebody is 

15 going to chat me in the answer for my team here. 

16 I believe ACA has done some kind of best practice 

17 -- has done a best practices document on ancillary 

18 substances or was working on one. You know, this 

19 is where I'm going to get myself in trouble if I 

20 talked too much because the reality is, I really 

21 don't know this has not been one that I have been 

22 very heavily involved in. So does somebody on my 
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1 team who knows clearly more than I do, like to jump 

2 in here, this is the phone a friend part of the 

3 conversation.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. No 

5 pressure because we were just putting you on the 

6 spot.

7 MS. SMITH: I'm also trying to phone 

8 a friend on the ACA best practices part. So if 

9 I get a response I'll let you know.

10 DR. TUCKER: Okay. I'm sorry. I 

11 don't have a good answer at this time. I do know 

12 that this is not one that has been on our active 

13 work agenda since the Board did its work. This 

14 is a bit before my time in my current role and I 

15 was not all that involved in this at that time.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think to -- yes, 

17 to Woods point, sorry Amy, I don't mean to cut you 

18 off. To Wood's point of having a procedure and 

19 process available to us. It maybe great to follow 

20 up on this with you after the meeting. Please go 

21 ahead, Amy.

22 MS. BRUNCH: Thank you, Nate. And I 
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1 echo, you know, the need to have a procedural 

2 process. I was just going to make a comment, you 

3 know, and in the oral comments, there was something 

4 that was mentioned about the quantity applied of 

5 this and it points to, you know, inert and not maybe 

6 having any insecticidal properties, but, you know, 

7 there's -- in farming, you know, just minimal 

8 amounts can really equal a big punch. I point to 

9 things such as gibberellic acid. It's a plant 

10 growth regulator, it's approved to be used with 

11 restrictions in organic, those are applied in --

12 it's in a formulation but the actual composition 

13 is tenth of a gram applied on an acre. So 1.32 

14 acres equals a football field. So when we look 

15 at, you know, small amounts creating a big punch, 

16 it is worth looking into the details and not just, 

17 you know, putting them up to chance that low amount, 

18 you know, it doesn't have any properties that can 

19 contribute to, you know, in this case an 

20 insecticide or something. So just a comment to 

21 mention.

22 MR. TURNER: I really appreciate that, 
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1 Amy, that was meaningful to hear you say that. 

2 I think that we did have discussion as a 

3 subcommittee on that particular issue, and I think 

4 that will definitely bubble up to something that 

5 I think sort of added, again, not to conflate issues 

6 here, but it added a layer of complexity to our 

7 concern about this because in fact it's being 

8 suggested that it's in an inert or adjuvant but 

9 in fact it's, you know, there is some obvious debate 

10 on that which I appreciate your comment, so I 

11 appreciate you saying.

12 MS. BRUNCH: No problem. Thanks.

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Carolyn, please go 

14 ahead.

15 DR. DIMITRI: So this seems very --

16 this whole product seems very weird to me. So --

17 oh, my computer's jumping in the conversation. 

18 So can -- and maybe this has already been done, 

19 but could someone just give me like a three 

20 sentence, non-technical justification for like, 

21 why this would be helpful to farmers?

22 MR. TURNER: I would love to defer to 
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1 any grower in the subcommittee or who has thoughts 

2 in this, but my understanding of the material is 

3 that it actually helps bind other active materials. 

4 It allows them to be -- god, I'm so -- I'm already 

5 desperate for somebody to jump in.

6 MS. PETREY: Okay. I think they said 

7 something earlier saying something like it was 

8 sticky. You know, that --

9 MR. TURNER: Sticky, that's it.

10 MS. PETREY: You know, cohesive type 

11 of -- not chelating, but something to that effect 

12 --

13 MR. TURNER: It pulls it together.

14 MS. PETREY: -- so whether it's 

15 sticking to the plant so that it's staying on there. 

16 And so like a lot of times when we apply products, 

17 there's a rain fast period or a -- you know, where 

18 you're trying to make sure that you're not applying 

19 right before a rain because it's going to wash off 

20 and you wasted a lot of your application. Or you 

21 don't want to irrigate -- overhead irrigation 

22 immediately after. Or if there's like, you know, 
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1 a lot of fog setting in. So there's some 

2 environmental conditions that can limit you on 

3 application timing. And I think that that's what 

4 this is. Wood, does that sound right? The resins 

5 stuck to me like the pine sap stickiness, so --

6 MR. TURNER: Thanks for jumping in, 

7 Logan. I was so worried about sounding stupid that 

8 I didn't want to say sticky but --

9 DR. DIMITRI: You feel like you said 

10 something stupid --

11 MR. TURNER: You should be doing that.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think we need to 

13 throw the word sticky into the official 

14 definitions. It's very, very useful. If we 

15 could, please hear from Javier next.

16 MR. ZAMORA: Yes. I think with 

17 farmers we referred to some like this as a sticker 

18 for whatever product we're applying to our crops 

19 just before the rains or kind of like to hoping 

20 that it stays there longer until the ingredient 

21 that we're applying, does its thing, if you will.

22 But also any sort of sticker and maybe in this 
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1 kind of -- this type of, pine resins and stuff will 

2 be leaching out, will be washed off the plant and 

3 end up in the soil. So my concerns and my questions 

4 are how long will it stay there? Or will just 

5 disappear or will it be washed? What would be the 

6 effect on our soil or other plants around after 

7 the usage of this sticker because we referred, to 

8 these materials as stickers ourselves.

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Great. Yes, thank 

10 you for that. Kyla, please go ahead.

11 MS. SMITH: Yes. I just wanted to, you 

12 know, Nate, you would ask Jenny about the ancillary 

13 substances recommendation. And so I just wanted 

14 to say that while related, I believe these are 

15 separate topics, right? So we don't have a, 

16 currently, we don't have a review process for 

17 inerts nor ancillary substances.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: And you said, if I 

19 have a right would be more processing and multi 

20 crops and livestock.

21 MR. TURNER: Like propylene glycol.

22 MS. SMITH: Correct. Yes. So, yes. 
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1 So, anyway, hopefully the ANPR will help to 

2 address the inerts situation. And then we need 

3 to maybe circle back around or see what to do, what 

4 the next step is with the ancillary substances 

5 recommendation. So again, while related, also 

6 separate.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes.

8 MS. JEFFERY: Because the inerts one 

9 was the -- when the former Board tried to see if 

10 the safer choice that EPA would work, and it really 

11 wouldn't. I think that was the other side. The 

12 previous Board work on inerts was when they tried 

13 to marry us into the Safer Choice program, and it 

14 didn't work out. I think that's how the history 

15 went on the inert side.

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: Do you have 

17 something, Logan?

18 MS. PETREY: No, I apologize. Thank 

19 you.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: Okay, good. Thank 

21 you. All right. Mindee, please go ahead.

22 MS. JEFFERY: Yes, thanks. I just 
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1 wanted to jump right in again and to say good job, 

2 Wood. Thank you so much for taking on some really 

3 dense subjects. Appreciate you.

4 MR. TURNER: It's the gig, right? And 

5 it's what we do.

6 MS. BRUNCH: Yes. See, I got all the 

7 really simple ones, really. You're doing the 

8 heavy lifting here.

9 MR. TURNER: It will of a sudden hit 

10 you, I promise you.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kyla, please go 

12 ahead.

13 MS. SMITH: Yes. So just wanted to 

14 just chime in a little bit more about the CACS work 

15 on ancillary substances and that this was as far 

16 as I understand it talked about it. And did some 

17 training on it that there were more than one way 

18 to go through this process. However, it didn't 

19 get incorporated into the CACS best practice 

20 document on material review stuff because there 

21 wasn't one agreed upon way, there wasn't sort of 

22 consensus amongst the groups. So anyway, that's 
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1 my understanding.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: Wood, please go 

3 ahead.

4 MR. TURNER: And Nate, I just want to 

5 say before we wrap up discussion on this, that I 

6 think we're flagging some issues here for 

7 discussion document level and I -- we can certainly 

8 discuss it, I welcome any thoughts that you or the 

9 program has on this, but I don't know what our 

10 pathway is to bringing this to a proposal in its 

11 current form. So I just want to say that, I don't 

12 know how we'd bring proposal for the fall. And 

13 unless someone wants to weigh in here and tell me 

14 that I'm wrong about that. That's where I'm 

15 leaving. That's where I'm ending this. That's 

16 where I'm jumping off here.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes, I think this 

18 entire discussion's highlighted some some deficits 

19 in our ability to proceed with process. And so 

20 I think that's a valid point. And I'm excited to 

21 get with the program and see what our options are 

22 and how he can keep addressing this. Because it's 
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1 -- yes, it sort of permeated all subcommittees, 

2 crops, livestock, and handling. All right. 

3 How's everyone feeling? That was intense. I 

4 appreciate all of you getting through that right 

5 after a quick break. So and not having lunch yet. 

6 Amy, did you want to pick up and offer a chance 

7 to hear any other Q&A about the CACS discussion 

8 document and we ended with on Tuesday?

9 MS. BRUNCH: Yes. Thank you, Nate, 

10 for this extra time. I just think that's 

11 worthwhile since we're convened here as a group 

12 to make sure that all voices are heard on. Any 

13 of our CACS topics, but especially the one that 

14 we ended the day on Tuesday. So I asked for this 

15 extension to be able to convene for this purpose. 

16 And on the oversight to deter fraud, we did have 

17 some good questions and discussion on the acres 

18 on certificate, which actually is intended on being 

19 just a quantitative quick way to match production 

20 area with products produced. So we did have some 

21 discussion on that. I'd like to make sure that 

22 we heard everybody's voices on that. And then just 
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1 see if there was any questions or comments on part 

2 two of that discussion document, which is the 

3 universal bill lading, which really is a 

4 conversation about identifying standards or record 

5 keeping minimums as some of the written comments 

6 suggested. Just so we can have a clear picture 

7 on farmer reconciliation with their lot tracking 

8 numbers to their bill sales to end users and also 

9 from a certifier inspector point of view for these 

10 crops checks. So with that, I will turn it back 

11 over to the team this for quick Q&A. Yes, Nate?

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: All right. So, Amy, 

13 may I asked you a question as a producer.

14 MS. BRUNCH: Oh, sure.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: So you sell grain 

16 primarily, as your organic crops, and you sell a 

17 lot of different loads. When you get -- well, 

18 could you describe to us real quick what is a bill 

19 of lading and why is it relevant here?

20 MS. BRUNCH: Yes, the bill of lading 

21 is essentially our ability to do lot tracking on 

22 our farms so our bill of lading and OST had asked 
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1 for are unique way to accomplish this. With every 

2 load that we deliver from our farm, it has the date 

3 in which the -- or the crop year in which our crop 

4 was produced, which farm it came from, if it was 

5 in storage, what inside it was located in, and you 

6 have my certifier information on the sheets, as 

7 well as contact information and the type of crop. 

8 So that I guess, as a whole or are some significant 

9 pieces to the bill of lading. It also has my 

10 trailer trap seals and I am growing food for the 

11 consumer. So all of that process is my lot 

12 tracking. So ideally if there was a question on 

13 any of the loads that I delivered, I could go back 

14 into my system and understand where things came 

15 from. So, you know, we heard from --

16 MR. POWELL-PALM: Follow-up.

17 MS. BRUNCH: I'm sorry.

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: And I might ask you 

19 a quick follow-up to that. So when you have your 

20 lot number, it captures a lot of information about 

21 the products that you're sending out the door to 

22 your buyers. When you get receipts or settlement 
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1 statements from your buyers, does that lot number 

2 usually track through?

3 MS. BRUNCH: Yes, that's a good 

4 question. And I thought I was on my own little 

5 island with my buyers. No, it doesn't. And then 

6 hearing with a broader audience just with my own 

7 producer network and other written and oral 

8 comments. We're all kind of in the same boat. 

9 It's very difficult then to match up our lot numbers 

10 for the loads me delivered with the settlement 

11 sheet, which is what the buyer gives to us to just 

12 recognize the loads that we brought in and the only 

13 way really to do it as match it up with dates, but 

14 it is tough when we're taking our products across 

15 state lines, the dates don't always match up, so 

16 it's a little bit of a guessing game.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: So seems like there 

18 could be a little bit of pressure applied from the 

19 inspection process as well as certifiers that the 

20 buyers, handlers, brokers who purchase primarily 

21 commodities, but all organic crops should be 

22 expecting these lot numbers to carry through more 
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1 consistently. Kyla, perfect timing. What do you 

2 have to say about this as a certifier?

3 MS. SMITH: So again, maybe this was 

4 like more the intent of the discussion document 

5 than the actual like wording being so like 

6 hyper-focused on the document of the bill of 

7 lading. But I'm just thinking about, you know, 

8 maybe not all sectors use a bill of lading. And 

9 so I think maybe what is intended, it's just sort 

10 of what you were talking about, Nate, is like that 

11 through line of certain elements on all audit trail 

12 documentation. And so I know as the proposed rule, 

13 there was some proposed language to have further 

14 detail in the record keeping section that to 

15 identify products as 100 percent organic, organic, 

16 or made with organic and things along those lines. 

17 Like on all audit trail documentation. And so 

18 I guess I'm just like wondering if perhaps we don't 

19 make it so specific.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: Super helpful. 

21 Logan, please go ahead.

22
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1 MS. PETREY: Thank you. Thank you, 

2 Amy, for all this work. Okay. So with bills of 

3 lading -- so we do -- I want to talk about produce 

4 and/or grain. It's a very different type 

5 industries of the way product is handled. So in 

6 veg, you know, we're typically -- you're dealing 

7 with packages. So we're talking about small 

8 packages and not bolt product like grain, I mean, 

9 with grain, you may be putting at least in my 

10 circumstance, we may be putting multiple fields, 

11 even different varieties and storing it in a single 

12 bin. And I wouldn't be able to separate that. 

13 So a lot to me on the produce side means a specific 

14 planting in the field by variety, by a certain crop. 

15 And because of food safety reasonings, we are able 

16 to track that lot number specifically to like a 

17 GPS coordinate, you know, a mapped area of that 

18 and that goes through our system. Now, I 

19 understand our farm is you know, digitalized with 

20 accountants and things like that and software. 

21 So I understand this. And not every farm is this 

22 way, but we are able to track that through, or 
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1 whether, you know, it gets received with receiving 

2 reports. And then we also, you know, when it loads 

3 up on a truck, we have the purchase orders and I 

4 mean, when you go through the audit tracing, it's 

5 just there's so many pages, but you may not have 

6 that lot number identified on every single piece, 

7 but it's like a map and so you just kind of connect 

8 the dots from this number with that number and this 

9 number, you know, equals this and that, you know, 

10 it just kind of opens it up to a bunch. So it's 

11 almost kind of fun doing the audit trace back 

12 because you click on one number and that's a bunch 

13 of possibilities and you find your other 

14 possibility and go down. With the grain on our 

15 purchase settlements, we don't -- I don't -- I'm 

16 looking at one, don't have the lot number. What 

17 I do have is the bill of lading ID number. So like 

18 our client or customer gave us a specific PO for 

19 that or bill of lading number, and then on that 

20 bill of lading sheet, if I were to reference back 

21 and look back at the sheets, I have the lot number 

22 on that. I don't know if that helps anything, but 
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1 sometimes it's not -- like the lot number that I 

2 assign at the farm may not be there, but it's a 

3 trail to find back. Don't know if we, you know, 

4 can universally put a field lot number on 

5 everything, but that's how we track it on here with 

6 our different types of produce and grain.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Super helpful. If 

8 I may jump in here real quick, Amy.

9 MS. BRUNCH: Yes.

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: I think as an -- as 

11 organic inspectors, we are trained to, as you're 

12 saying, follow that road map, figure out how the 

13 connectors exist. What Amy, I think, is citing 

14 is when basically there isn't a real connector 

15 between a receipt and a bill of lading. And be 

16 it a lot number or a purchase order number or 

17 another connector, it seems like between farm and 

18 aggregated processor, there is this growing black 

19 box of information.

20 MS. PETREY: I don't think it should 

21 be. I think that that needs to be handled, so yes, 

22 absolutely.
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: But I appreciate 

2 that, we want to make this work for everybody. 

3 So that was a really helpful example.

4 MS. PETREY: Yes.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Kim, please go 

6 ahead.

7 MS. HUSEMAN: Yes. I'll just give it 

8 from a buyer's perspective as well. So and maybe 

9 I'm going down this in a little bit different of 

10 an angle, but we use BOLs. First off, anything 

11 that comes into our facility has to have matching 

12 internal purchase order number on that BOL, if not, 

13 it's rejected before it ever entered our site. 

14 And that's for organic integrity and a bunch of 

15 other reasons because we don't want a low that was 

16 supposed to go to our neighbors to end up at our 

17 facility, right? So we have internal numbers that 

18 we communicate with our buyers to link those up. 

19 If we're looking from a mass balance standpoint, 

20 you know, to me, I would think that weights, and 

21 I'm not buyer of vegetables so I can't speak to 

22 what Logan just talked about. But I do appreciate 
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1 that aspect. But if we're trying to do a mass 

2 balance, I think weights are very critical to this 

3 phase. And I don't know who's responsible for 

4 entering that, and how does that get connected? 

5 Because from an audit standpoint, I know what we 

6 go through from a buyer. The disconnect to me is 

7 the link between the certifier of the buyer and 

8 certifier of the seller of product. And it's a 

9 very difficult topic, I guess, is what I'm getting 

10 at. And I'm not sure I'm clear on the angle in 

11 which we're trying to go to create that conduit.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: If I may, Amy, I 

13 think, you know, the spark for this discussion 

14 document is acknowledging that break between the 

15 certifier with the buyer and certifier with the 

16 seller. In trying to figure out through best 

17 practices, how do we have more consistency on that 

18 bidirectional information discovery? And so when 

19 we're an inspector for either party, it should be 

20 the similar, if not the same information we're 

21 seeing on both ends. Is that correct, Amy? 

22 Anything to add to that?
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1 MS. BRUNCH: Yes. That's correct. 

2 The bidirectional look back is what we're going 

3 through and having those common elements go through 

4 the chain. And one thing, Kim, that was great 

5 perspective from your point of view as a buyer. 

6 From the farm level, a lot of these products are 

7 leaving without being scaled up. So without --

8 MS. HUSEMAN: That was -- yes.

9 MS. BRUNCH: Yes. So I mean, that's 

10 a good point. It's just really to make sure you 

11 know, things aren't being double counted and 

12 through different places in the supply chain, you 

13 know, there's different certifiers involved, so 

14 it's just looking -- trying to get similar data 

15 so the whole process from start to finish really 

16 examined.

17 MS. HUSEMAN: Because our expectation 

18 is that farmers do not have certified scales on 

19 their properties. So we are using destination 

20 weights that are agreed upon between the buyer and 

21 the seller. But from a certified weight 

22 standpoint, it's really difficult to get two 
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1 matching numbers or correlating numbers if you're 

2 coming directly off farm and it's not collected 

3 at a transit facility or if it's railed versed 

4 truck, or how products move in such a fragmented 

5 space, speaking directly from the grains aspect. 

6 The correlation I'm sure, you know, Javier, Logan, 

7 you guys have much better detail in information 

8 on that from the vegetable side so --

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Brain, please go 

10 ahead. Thank you for that, Kim. This is really, 

11 really helpful.

12 MR. CALDWELL: Well, thinking about 

13 making this work for everybody. I think I'm going 

14 to ask questions relating to the many thousands 

15 of small mini and micro small scale producers who 

16 have nothing to do with bills of lading. And when 

17 I deliver almost all my produce by my, you know, 

18 I do it myself or an employee does it. And we have 

19 of course, you know, invoices and receipts. We 

20 have records that we keep. About what how many 

21 CSAA shares go out to different locations all that 

22 kind of stuff. When we used to do farmers market, 
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1 we would keep records of our, you know, what produce 

2 we brought, what produce we either gave away at 

3 the end to donated or brought back. But it's a 

4 completely different world. And I hope that we 

5 can make whatever process we're putting in place 

6 here, you know, not be an extra burden to all the 

7 small-scale producers of which there actually are 

8 many more than there are large-scale producers in 

9 the organic world. So just want to put that out 

10 there.

11 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes, I think Amy 

12 really saw this question because in the discussion 

13 document, it only describes bill -- business to 

14 business transactions. So if you're selling 

15 directly to consumers to end buyers, this doesn't 

16 apply to you.

17 MS. BRUNCH: Yes, absolutely. And one 

18 other thing to add, you know, a derivative of this 

19 discussion document was just determining 

20 consistency of what the definition of sufficient 

21 means just to kind of get everybody in the whole 

22 community, you know, more or less, using their 
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1 unique system, but capturing some of these key 

2 minimum reporting requirements, doing it, you 

3 know, the question was, should it be granular, 

4 should be aggregated, you know, just to try to 

5 invoke a little bit more clarity there as well.

6 Okay. I'll turn over you, Nate.

7 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that. 

8 Javier, please go ahead.

9

10

11

12 MR. ZAMORA: All right. I think 

13 there's two -- I see two different issues here. 

14 Or at least, but trying to -- we're trying to 

15 figure out two different things. So if you are 

16 trying to figure out the mass of the amount of 

17 product that is being grown from a farm. That's 

18 kind of, it's relatively easy because there's

19 numbers and there's data that we can go by. If 

20 you're a grain grower, certifiers know how many 

21 tons, if you're strawberry grower, you kind of know 

22 how many trays of strawberries you grow. That's 
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1 one thing. I think it's -- if you are a specialty 

2 grower like myself and if you sell to let's say 

3 I bring my strawberries to, you know, to a 

4 distributor, we have a way to trace our 

5 strawberries from the Triple M Ranch (phonetic) 

6 or the Maja Ranch (phonetic) with a little sticker. 

7 And then we have another number that it's our 

8 grower's number that gets input into the lot number 

9 that the distributor has. So if there was an issue 

10 with our strawberries, there's the number to trace 

11 exactly where it's coming from. So but if you sell 

12 at a farmers market, there's a way to figure that 

13 out too, because you have like Brian was saying 

14 load list, you have harvest records, you have 

15 designated blocked numbers, designated ranch 

16 numbers. So we're looking at two different 

17 things. We're looking at the mass amount of 

18 product that is grown and we're also looking at 

19 traceability. Now, how can we make everybody 

20 happy? Or how can NOSB come up with an idea the 

21 NOP can enforce? It's going to be hard because 

22 we don't have a silver bullet for everybody, but 
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1 I think we need to differentiate, unfortunately. 

2 Yes, if you're a grain grower, it's just one thing. 

3 And if you are a specialty crops grower, it's a 

4 whole different thing because they can tell you 

5 on a block of 12 acres, I can name 30 different 

6 crops that I grow. Now, how am I going to be able 

7 to trace the rutabaga or the cauliflower, cilantro, 

8 tomatillo, cherry tomatoes, and corn and brussels 

9 sprouts and bell peppers and broccoli from that 

10 block? And not only that, you don't just harvest 

11 one-shot. There's several times that you harvest 

12 even broccoli, two or three times, cherry tomatoes, 

13 ten times. So it's very complicated. But if you 

14 -- if the goal is to understand whether somebody 

15 it's -- or there's some fraud going on, that 

16 everything is there for you to identify it. Now 

17 when you do that, are you interfering into 

18 something that might not be our business into their 

19 private -- privacy of their -- the farmer? Well, 

20 when a certifier shows up, there's absolutely no 

21 privacy. They're coming in to check and see how 

22 your operation is working. So I think the biggest 
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1 issue that I've seen in the past and people talked 

2 about that is when grains come out of overseas or 

3 some other countries and then the paperwork doesn't 

4 really, you know -- we don't really have -- or the 

5 tools are not there in place to really trace 

6 everything to the block where things came out of. 

7 But if you do have a way or actually identify and 

8 whether you know the 400 acres in Colima, Mexico 

9 are actually producing 300 tons per acre or lines 

10 or whatever it is. So figuring out, it's tricky. 

11 But the certifier can go in and really figure out 

12 whether what you're saying, it is what is happening 

13 at your farm.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Let's hear from one 

15 of those certifiers. Go ahead, Kyla.

16

17 MS. SMITH: Yes. I'll just sort of 

18 echo some of the things that Brian and Javier said, 

19 is that whatever we come up with here, I think it's 

20 really important that it is applicable to all 

21 sectors. All types of operations, big, small,

22 in-between. Tech, no tech. It aligns with 
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1 current regulations and pending regulations. And 

2 so that's I think where my struggle with this is, 

3 is that we know that SOE is coming, and it can't 

4 come fast enough. And I know that the intent of 

5 this proposal is not to upset that apple cart or 

6 -- and it's to support, but it's just hard to know 

7 how it's supporting. Do we need to do more, 

8 without knowing exactly what it's going to say. 

9 And then the other thing, specifically with bills 

10 of lading, it's, you know, it's a transportation 

11 document. So I know that there's like other types 

12 of audit trail which documents which can be used 

13 depending on your type of operation, which is sort 

14 of, you know, what my comment was before. But 

15 oftentimes, transportation companies themselves 

16 are not certified. So the oversight of those --

17 of that activity happens on the buyer or the 

18 seller's side. And so hence, a little bit of that 

19 black box fits in there. Because certifiers, 

20 don't have that direct oversight in the way that 

21 we do over companies that we certify. So we have 

22 to rely on either the buyer or seller operations 
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1 that we do certify to then create that link. And 

2 then also again with SOE there -- again, there are 

3 in there going to be increased record keeping 

4 requirements. There's also going to be increased 

5 cross-checking required to be able to do supply 

6 chain audits. So this was going to what you were 

7 talking about, Kim, and helping sort of, again, 

8 not through line to be able to connect the audit 

9 trail across the supply chain. So again, I just 

10 say all of this because it's coming and I know that 

11 like we want to do more and we want to do things 

12 now. And so I just, you know, don't want us to 

13 get too far down the path without knowing exactly 

14 what is already going to be included.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that. 

16 Yes. Absolutely. Carolyn, please go ahead.

17 DR. DIMITRI: This is very important 

18 and it's a very complicated topic, obviously. I 

19 just thinking about the producers that are kind 

20 of on the edge, should I get certified, should I 

21 give up my certification and I think that keeping 

22 them in the organic, you know, as certified organic 
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1 is really important and I just wonder, as we think 

2 about this, can we think about them and not actually 

3 pushing more smaller scale producers out of organic 

4 into, you know, that fuzzy world of I use organic 

5 practices, but I'm not certified.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Appreciate that. 

7 Liz, please go ahead.

8 MS. GRAZNAK: So this actually relays 

9 specifically goes to Carolyn's comment, which is 

10 I fall within that, you know real small farm 

11 category. And the conversations that I have with 

12 many growers that I'm in touch with who are on that 

13 fence of should I certify, I grow using organic 

14 practices, but I don't want to certify. One of 

15 the things that I tell every single person that 

16 I hear that argument from is that in the course 

17 of my farming career, when I started keeping track 

18 in year four of very specific details, lot code 

19 information on seedings, transplantings, seedings 

20 outside in the field, harvest records, applying 

21 lot codes to everything. That's when I became a 

22 really good farmer. And those records that I 
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1 started keeping made me much better and much more 

2 efficient. And even at my very small scale, I keep 

3 all of those same -- the same lock codes that Logan 

4 on her farm keeps. So I don't personally think 

5 that that is or should be used as an argument to 

6 keep somebody from certifying. That's my 

7 perspective.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: I can't tell you how 

9 much I appreciate that as an inspector, I think 

10 I would say that the record keeping requirements 

11 are just good business management requirements. 

12 And I think that all around you noticed that the 

13 really well run businesses don't have a hard time 

14 with records. It's just as both clearly track 

15 together. Javier, please go ahead.

16 MR. ZAMORA: Thank you. Liz, it's you 

17 know, I'm glad you there's more. It's probably 

18 how limited customers and CSAA, but something that 

19 has been said and I went to echo this, the amount 

20 of smallest grower, the smaller growers, that are 

21 disappearing or not certified organic anymore, 

22 this is one of the biggest reasons because they 
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1 don't have the HR behind them that can keep track 

2 of every little detail. Again, it's not that 

3 difficult because it's just business. But there 

4 is a load of work that needs -- lots of work that 

5 needs to be done. I can tell you that I have two 

6 people to take care of that. Just my CCOS, my 

7 organic certification, and we still struggle 

8 because we are so diverse. I grow from 75 to 150 

9 varieties of flowers. I grow 40 different crops. 

10 And that's -- why did I do that? Because that's 

11 the only way for me to compete with a larger grower. 

12 If I have some flamingo strawberries and some mar 

13 de voir that are different than the massive amounts 

14 of strawberries that are grown. That's the only 

15 reason why I'm still in business. And that, I can 

16 tell you that my customers we've been dealing with 

17 them for, you know, the 25 customers for the last 

18 7, 9 years. And if I went non-organic. I probably 

19 wouldn't lose them all, but I will lose some because 

20 I have to have the seal in order for me to sell 

21 to the school district. So there's a lot of 

22 limitations to how far your organic certification 
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1 can go to keep the new small family members farms 

2 available and being kept as an organic producer. 

3 I mean, this is the Santa Cruz area, the 

4 Watsonville. Now at the farmers market, you can 

5 count how many certified organic operations are 

6 there.

7 MS. GRAZNAK: Yes. Can I --

8 MR. ZAMORA: Ten years ago was not the 

9 case. You can count how many they weren't 

10 certified. So something is happening that we need 

11 to make sure that we were not going to find a silver 

12 bullet. But we have to really, really figure out 

13 a way. And again, I said it twice. There is ways 

14 to do it easily because my door is open when they 

15 come. My files are right there, my receipts are 

16 there, my sales are there on the whole enchilada. 

17 You just have to --

18 MS. GRAZNAK: Can I --

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: I just want to say 

20 one thing real quick. The primary thing we're 

21 looking at here is buyers, tracing back to farm. 

22 Farmers on the whole look like they're taking --
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1 doing a pretty good job tracking that information. 

2 It's really this connector, Javier, rather than 

3 putting on farmers, it's far as how do we get what 

4 the farmers are already doing to track over to the 

5 buyer? Amy, please go ahead.

6 MS. BRUNCH: Actually, I'll defer to 

7 Liz and then I'll get right in there at the end. 

8 Liz, if you want to make a comment.

9 MS. GRAZNAK: I'm good. I'm good. 

10 Thank you very much, Amy. And thank you, Nate, 

11 for clarifying the specificness of this actual 

12 discussion document. Yes,

13 MR. POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. Yes. 

14 To the -- to speaking to those very small producers 

15 that primarily going direct to consumers.

16 MS. GRAZNAK: Right. Yes. Yes.

17 MR. POWELL-PALM: This would have 

18 nothing to do with them.

19 MS. GRAZNAK: Correct.

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: It's really business 

21 to business. Fraud exist more in the business to 

22 business space. Where we have aggregation, where 
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1 we have longer supply chains. Direct consumer 

2 isn't where this is targeting. I will turn it back 

3 to you, Amy.

4 MS. BRUNCH: Okay. Well, I'm grateful 

5 for this extension and this conversation and just 

6 the diversity of opinions and thoughts on this. 

7 And it isn't an easy subject. And then I 

8 appreciate the respect and going over this to find, 

9 you know, an efficient option. I just point to 

10 the title of this discussion document is, 

11 Modernizing our system. You know, maybe there are 

12 things that we should be -- what data it is being 

13 captured and there was a lot of ideas on making 

14 things a lot more transparent. What was 

15 concerning to me is just hearing that a couple of 

16 certifiers said out out of all of their 

17 non-compliances, over 50 percent is because of bad 

18 records. To me, I think sometimes we stay, let's 

19 just let the farmer come up with whatever system 

20 they want. But I'd rather not see that system not 

21 be sufficient enough. So, you know, as a 

22 transition farmer, that's coming from a 
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1 conventional world, record keeping to this level 

2 is really ambiguous. So it's actually can be 

3 helpful to tell them, you know, some of the minimum 

4 ways to --

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Oh, no. We lost you 

6 again there, Amy.

7 MS. BRUNCH: Sorry.

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: That's okay. I 

9 think I'm not hearing you. Yes.

10 MS. BRUNCH: Yes. So that I mean, 

11 that's then I appreciate the discussion. I'm 

12 finding the pain points and seeing if there's 

13 opportunities to optimize. In terms of these two 

14 subject matters, in particular, acres on 

15 certificates actually does not look like it's in 

16 a scope of SOE. So potentially we could look to 

17 decouple these two ideas and have potentially two 

18 formats going forward on these particular 

19 initiatives instead of combining them because they 

20 are two different subject matters. Just to help 

21 shore up some of the gaps that have been identified 

22 by other stakeholders. But with that, and I want 
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1 to deliver too much longer. I minute turned it 

2 over to Nate to wrap this up if there's nobody else 

3 to discuss anything.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: I just wanted to 

5 thank you, Amy, for flagging this for us. As we 

6 see how many people had thoughts about this, I'm 

7 really glad we have the chance to circle back. 

8 So thanks for putting this back on our agenda. 

9 All right. So folks on the whole, that pretty much 

10 wraps things up. We're going to go over the work 

11 agenda now for our upcoming semester. And then 

12 we will end with a welcome to our new members. 

13 So if we could project the work agenda, and we'll 

14 just go through by subcommittee, and I apologize, 

15 would you mind making it just a bit bigger, a little 

16 bit more zoomed in. Great. Thank you. So 

17 continuing from -- oh, yes.

18 MS. SMITH: I just want to interrupt 

19 you just for one second so you know, the yellow 

20 highlighting are the ones we sent back from this 

21 meeting. So they're back on the agenda for the 

22 fall, I presume.

23
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: Perfect. Thank 

2 you. So for the fall our meeting in Sacramento, 

3 hopefully, our first in-person meeting in awhile, 

4 we're going to likely have a proposal for oversight 

5 improvements to deter fraud. That which we just 

6 discussed. A lot of that fall for that. Human 

7 capital management NOSB technical support will go 

8 to a vote. And then we'll also have a proposal 

9 on organic and climate-smart agriculture, which 

10 I am stoked for. So being able to dive in and take 

11 a vote on how we can better articulate how organics 

12 fits in this space. NOP risk mitigation tables, 

13 we will be working on again this semester that we 

14 sent back. And then moving into crops. So carbon 

15 dioxide send back, it will still be on our work 

16 agenda to vote on in the fall. We are going to 

17 have a pile of material votes. Spring always seems 

18 easier when I look at the small agenda. So I hope 

19 everyone enjoyed our warm-up session because it's 

20 going to be a marathon of voting on all these 

21 materials we went over will go to a vote. So I 

22 won't read them all off. You can see them as we 
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1 scroll through here. And we're going to be moving 

2 through crops and then we had in handling sent 

3 phosphoric acid back. So we'll be working on that 

4 this semester as well. If you want to slow scroll, 

5 please. We'll be voting on all the materials about 

6 what you heard this meeting. So really excited 

7 to have some questions that we post back to the 

8 community in your fall comments, and to hear from 

9 you on these things. Livestock will have those 

10 material votes. In the materials subcommittee, 

11 we're going to have our tall oil, so DTO votes. 

12 It's a discussion document now excluded methods. 

13 And then moving into our research priorities about 

14 which we discussed. And then our PPM updates. 

15 And is that the end there? Did we just fly through 

16 all those? Please go ahead, Wood.

17 MS. ARSENAULT: You can move through 

18 them and I'll read them.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: I guess, I'll just 

20 scroll and don't read everyone all, they post 

21 quickly.

22 MR. TURNER: There were a couple of 
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1 things I noted there, Nate. So there was you --

2 as you were going through the votes, there was an 

3 L-malic acid discussion that I think you may have 

4 higher up on the list, you might have seen --

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. If we 

6 can scroll back to that.

7 MR. TURNER: And also to my question 

8 about BTO. Do we indeed have a vote in the fall 

9 or is that no longer on there?

10 MR. POWELL-PALM: Super good question, 

11 I would say for now, it's listed as a vote in the 

12 fall, so just by procedure, we've done discussion 

13 document and then likely a normal procedure goes 

14 to proposal. I think it'll be a discussion with 

15 the program to see if we do have a path forward 

16 and we'll be able to update the community after 

17 that.

18 MR. TURNER: Okay.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that 

20 question. Carolyn, please go ahead.

21 DR. DIMITRI: Nate, is it out of order 

22 if I say something about climate change?
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1 MR. POWELL-PALM: If you wouldn't mind 

2 in just one second, hold it off.

3 DR. DIMITRI: Okay.

4 MR. POWELL-PALM: We'll conclude the 

5 agenda review and then we can go into other 

6 business. So please standby. Any other 

7 questions or comments on our agenda?

8 MS. ARSENAULT: Maybe --

9 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes.

10 MS. ARSENAULT: Added that line item 

11 onto your work agenda. So it may be in the CACS 

12 section at the top. Climate-Smart -- here we go. 

13 If Carolyn wants to address it here.

14 MR. POWELL-PALM: Sure. Yes. Let's go 

15 ahead. If you'd like to talk about it, Carolyn.

16 DR. DIMITRI: I just have two very fast 

17 things to say because I see that we have coming 

18 up for a vote in the fall meeting, So I just wanted 

19 to let people know that we'll probably -- we'll 

20 put something out on the open docket for comments 

21 before then, so they will have a chance to give 

22 input and then also if anyone has any thoughts about 
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1 climate change in organic and they want to talk 

2 to me, they can just reach me through my NYU e-mail 

3 address, and I'll be happy to talk to anyone who 

4 has an interest in the topic.

5 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that. 

6 I would also just put out to the community if 

7 anyone is applying for Climate-Smart agriculture 

8 grants as part of this billion dollars for 

9 Climate-Smart commodity solutions, please e-mail 

10 me. I would love to know what the community is 

11 doing out there and how we might inform the writing 

12 of this document to reflect the hard work that's 

13 going on and the ideas that are already being 

14 implemented and explored through that grant part 

15 making process. So please be in touch.

16 All right. So that pretty much 

17 concludes our review of our upcoming semester's 

18 agenda. Any other questions from folks? Hearing 

19 none. Great work through the deferred votes. 

20 It's our chance that normally we would welcome our 

21 new members now. And I think that we have, you 

22 know -- we can't express how excited we are to have 
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1 you four with us. This is really a great honor 

2 to have your expertise and really just by show of 

3 this meeting, how ready to run you all were. It 

4 was kind of a late appointment. You all arrived 

5 and got your letters a little bit later than might 

6 be optimal, but you have just thrown yourselves 

7 into the work. So I can't thank you enough for 

8 that and for the insights and deep respect for the 

9 community that you brought to this meeting. So 

10 the community thanks you, your fellow Board members 

11 thank you. And, hopefully we get to see you in 

12 the fall. It's so you won't have nearly as long 

13 of a delay in getting to meet your fellow Board 

14 members as my class and the class after us have. 

15 And I think that's going to be a really special 

16 opportunity to see you all in person. So thank 

17 you so far for your service and for your 

18 participation and for all of your respect and the 

19 dignity you give to this process. Any other 

20 business? Any other questions, ideas? Brian, 

21 please go ahead.

22 MR. CALDWELL: Well, first I feel like 
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1 I want to apologize to everybody else on the Board 

2 because I feel like my role here has been to give 

3 everybody else more work. And just to turn that 

4 around a little bit. I just wanted to say that. 

5 If we can make it some sort of an effort on moving 

6 the inerts question forward. I would be very happy 

7 to work on that no matter --

8 MR. POWELL-PALM: Please go ahead, 

9 Brian.

10 MR. CALDWELL: Oh, just no matter what 

11 committee may get it, I would be glad to really 

12 help on that, because it just seems like such a 

13 quagmire for us. So just wanted to put that out 

14 there.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you. I think 

16 it's telling me an all hands on deck. So this is 

17 an issue of our day to try to figure this out across 

18 subcommittees. So appreciate your work there. 

19 Kyla, please go ahead.

20 MS. SMITH: I would just say that we're 

21 just we're in a bit of a holding pattern though. 

22 Until the program put out that ANPR, who already 
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1 like handed inerts like back to them. And so until 

2 like they put out that advanced notice of proposal 

3 making and the ideas come back in, then they have 

4 to sort of sort out what those maybe and then it 

5 may come back to us. So I really appreciate your 

6 enthusiasm, Brian, and hopefully it doesn't take 

7 too long for that to get rolling. If it should 

8 come back to the Board and that you're still on 

9 the Board because it happens so much really, you 

10 know, carry that as the torch bearer would be hugely 

11 helpful.

12 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you for that. 

13 Absolutely. Any other closing thoughts? Well, 

14 we've said it before you all are the best. This 

15 is really has been a great meeting. Thank you so 

16 much for the time and energy put into this. And 

17 Michelle, please go ahead.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: I don't want to 

19 interrupt you, you want to finish your thoughts?

20 MR. POWELL-PALM: I can finish my 

21 thought. I think it was representative of really 

22 hard work done throughout the year -- throughout 
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1 this last semester to hit so many 15 to 0 votes 

2 where folks felt informed, conversations had been 

3 thorough, the work and the homework had been done. 

4 So I think that is really reflective of a process 

5 working well. And so, thank you. There's a lot 

6 of calls. I think the community might not quite 

7 understand how many hours go into this. But it's 

8 an easy 15, 20 hours every week, both in committees 

9 where we're meeting formally but informally with 

10 conversations between each other. And and it all 

11 is very shiny when we get to this point, but it 

12 is an extraordinary amount of work. And I just 

13 want to commend all of my fellow Board members on 

14 taking the time away from your jobs, from your 

15 families, in support of our community to make our 

16 community what it is. So thank you again.

17 MS. ARSENAULT: Hear, hear. I just 

18 want to -- oh, go ahead, Nate.

19 MR. POWELL-PALM: No, please go ahead.

20 MS. ARSENAULT: I just want to mention 

21 two quick things then I'm going to turn it over 

22 to Jenny as the designated federal officer to go 
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1 ahead and close the meeting. But here are the 

2 things in my brain. So we will have a nomination 

3 coming up this year. We're waiting for the 

4 announcement to get approved so we can get it posted 

5 in the federal register. We will have one vacancy 

6 to fill come January of 2023. So the announcement 

7 should be out in the spring of this year. And 

8 that's Rick who is leaving us in January of 2023, 

9 he's in the environmental protection and resource 

10 conservation seat. So and then next slide, Jared. 

11 Thank you. Just -- I think you guys have seen 

12 the same slide now for a couple of meetings. Not 

13 much movement here, but we are slated to be in 

14 Sacramento in the fall. Still working on the 

15 spring 2023 meeting and the fall 2023 meeting we're 

16 slated to be in Providence, Rhode Island. Allison 

17 --

18 MR. POWELL-PALM: Yes. Allison, 

19 please go ahead.

20 MS. JOHNSON: I just wanted to make sure 

21 we get one more big thanks sent to Michelle. You 

22 made it so easy to slide into this group and make 
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1 sure we have everything we need. So thank you.

2 MR. POWELL-PALM: I can't echo that 

3 enough. Man, thank you, Michelle.

4 MS. JOHNSON: And the treats. I loved 

5 the treats.

6 MR. POWELL-PALM: Even though we're 

7 virtual, Michelle still got us treats. That 

8 should say something about a really effective 

9 manager. So thank you, Michelle. That was yes, 

10 you're incredible. And you made this work 

11 possible. All right. And with that, I'll hand 

12 it back to Jenny.

13

14 DR. TUCKER: All right. I want to 

15 thank the entire Board for a wonderful meeting, 

16 incredible discussions, incredible group. I also 

17 want to thank the National Organic Program team. 

18 I do want to close with a kind of behind the scenes 

19 project that has been going on for months that we 

20 are now able to launch and actually launched this 

21 afternoon during the meeting. So I just want to 

22 point it out for the -- looks like we have 86 
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1 diehards that are still on the line with us as well 

2 as the Board. Today looks like I'm not allowed 

3 to share my screen or I would share it for you. 

4 Today, we launched a new petition substances 

5 database so for all the folks out there who are 

6 involved in materials, reviews, and who are 

7 tracking all of these substances through the sunset 

8 process, all the detailed technical work that 

9 happens in these meetings, our technology is a huge 

10 enabler to everything we do and so the team heard 

11 you about the need for a better online index for 

12 managing petition substances. And Andie Holm, has 

13 led this project for the last several months. So 

14 Andie, I just clicked it in, chatted it in so you 

15 can double click on it, scroll down to see the 

16 National Petitioned Substances Database. But I 

17 did want to highlight both that is a tool, but also 

18 the behind the scenes work that happens as Nate 

19 just mentioned with the entire Board, but also 

20 across the standards division and elsewhere. We 

21 are one big global partnership and if technology 

22 is important for binding us all and the people are 
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1 important for making the work happen. So again, 

2 congratulations and thanks. And Nate 

3 Powell-Palm, thank you for your leadership during 

4 this meeting and as the Board chair, you did a 

5 fabulous job as your first virtual meeting and 

6 you'll do another fabulous job in the fall, ideally 

7 in face-to-face, where we will all be able to give 

8 each other hugs at this point in the process. So 

9 with that, I think we are going to formally adjourn 

10 this meeting of the National Organic Standards 

11 Board with many, many thanks and well wishes for 

12 a safe and happy and smooth path forward. So be 

13 well wherever you maybe and take good care. Bye 

14 bye.

15 MR. POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Jenny,

16 MS. SMITH: Thanks, Jenny. Maybe at 

17 the fall meeting, there will be less issues with 

18 the microphone un-muting and muting because we've 

19 all been having to do that on Zoom for so long. 

20 Because that's like just one thing I remember from 

21 in-person meetings where everyone is like people 

22 forget to un-mute that.
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1 (Whereupon, the meeting in the 

2 above-entitled matter was concluded at 3:30 p.m.)