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WILKINS NOMINATION

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE

UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGHTY-NINTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

ON

NOMINATION OF

ROGER W. WILKINS TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE COMMUNITY

RELATIONS SERVICE

JANUARY 25, 1966

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Serial 89-46

Printed for the use of the Committee on Commerce

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U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE.

59-221 WASHINGTON: 1966
COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE

WARREN G. MAGNUSON, Washington, Chairman

JOHN 0. PASTORE, Rhode Island

A. S. MIKE MONRONEY, Oklahoma

FRANK J. LAUSCHE, Ohio

E. L. BARTLETT, Alaska

VANCE HARTKE, Indiana

GALE W. McGEE, Wyoming

PHILIP A. HART, Michigan

HOWARD W. CANNON, Nevada

DANIEL B. BREWSTER, Maryland

MAURINE B. NEUBERGER, Oregon

ROSS BASS, Tennessee

TI

NORRIS COTTON, New Hampshire

THRUSTON B. MORTON, Kentucky

HUGH SCOTT, Pennsylvania

WINSTON L. PROUTY, Vermont

JAMES B. PEARSON, Kansas

PETER H. DOMINICK, Colorado

GERALD GRINSTEIN, Chief Counsel

EDWARD JARRETT, Chief Clerk

jEREMIAH J. KENNEY, Jr., Assistant Chief Counsel

RALPH HORTON, Assistant Chief Clerk
CONTENTS

Statement of— Page

Kennedy, Hon. Robert F., U.S. Senate 2

Wilkins, Roger W., nominee, Director of the Community

Relations Service, Department of Commerce 2

Letters received

Javits, Hon. Jacob K., U.S. Senate 1

III
r
NOMINATION OF ROGER W. WILKINS, OF THE DISTRICT

OF COLUMBIA, TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE COMMUNITY

RELATIONS SERVICE

TUESDAY, JANUARY 25, 1966

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met at 10:25 a.m., in room 5110, New Senate Office

Building, the Honorable Warren G. Magnuson (chairman of the

committee) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

We have a special executive session today on some matters that

must be acted upon now and we will have a further executive session

next Tuesday. But the public session today will be on the nomination of Roger W. Wilkins, of the District of Columbia, to be Director

of the Community Relations Service for a term of 4 years.

Senator Kennedy is appearing on behalf of Mr. Wilkins, as well

as Senator Hart, of Michigan.

Senator Kennedy, we will be glad to hear from you at this time,

because I know you have other commitments.

Governor Collins, come up here and sit with us, so you can help

us out a little bit on this nomination.

Before Senator Kennedy makes his statement, I will put in the

record a letter from Senator Javits regarding the nominee.

(The letter follows:)

Senator WARREN G. MAGNUSON,

Chairman, Senate Committee on Commerce,

Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Because of testimony which I am giving before a hearing

of the Interstate Commerce Commission in New York, I am unable to be present

at the public hearings scheduled by your committee on January 25 on the nomination of Roger W. Wilkins, of the District of Columbia, to be Director, Community Relations Service, for a term of 4 years.

I would like you and the committee to know that I favor this nomination and

that I consider Mr. Wilkins to be an outstanding choice for this position.

In doing so, I want to make clear, however, that I intend to file a resolution

of disapproval to the President's plan to reorganize the Community Relations

Service, for I object strongly to the placement of this conciliatory agency in the

Department of Justice.

I would appreciate it very much if you would read this letter into the record

of the January 25 hearing.

Sincerely,

U.S. SENATE,

Washington, D.C., January 24, 1966.

Staff counsel assigned to this hearing: Gerald B. Grinstein.

JACOB K. JAVITS.

1
2 WILKINS NOMINATION

STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT F. KENNEDY, U.S. SENATOR,

STATE OF NEW YORK

Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee,

it is my pleasure today to introduce to this committee Roger W.

Wilkins, President Johnson's nominee as Director of the Community

Relations Service.

Mr. Wilkins has worked in Washington the past 3% years. He is a

member of the New York bar and practiced in the city of New York

for almost 5 years. Although a young man, he has already demonstrated outstanding ability and energy, and has already acquired a

wide experience in areas closely related to his new assignment.

After receiving his law degree in 1956 he was associated briefly with

a New York law firm and then worked as a public welfare caseworker

in Cleveland.

In the latter job he saw firsthand the problem of the Negro in the

northern city ghetto, where welfare and relief take the place of opportunity and dignity, and where inferior education and slum housing

are a way of life for so many of our citizens.

Mr. Wilkins returned to New York law practice in 1958, becoming

associated once again with the law firm of Delson, Levin & Gordon a

firm which represents governments of developing countries in bah

governmental and commercial matters.

His Government service began in 1962 when he was appointed as

special assistant to the Administrator of the Agency for International

Development.

In October 1964 he was named as Assistant Director of the Community Relations Service for Community Action. His work included

directing the staff of a Cabinet-level task force on urban problems,

which worked in nine northern cities in the spring and summer of

1965. The task force worked cooperatively with the city administrations in making Federal programs more effective in these areas.

Mr. Wilkins hopes to continue his work in the northern cities, using

last year's experience to build a year-round program for Federal-local

cooperation in bringing effective aid to the vast urban slum areas.

Although I trust the Service will continue to bear nationwide

responsibilities, Mr. Wilkins' determination to make a major effort in

the northern cities is certainly welcome. The large urban areas in

the North present problems of segregation on a massive scale. Our

utmost effort is needed to improve the quality of employment, housing,

and education in those areas.

I know that the Community Relations Service under Mr. Wilkins'

capable direction will play a most important role in meeting the

challenges that lie ahead. Under Governor Collins in this area, he

has already compiled an outstanding record. Governor Collins has

acted with great diligence and great courage. His work and his personal initiative have headed off a good number of problems that

would otherwise be confronting not only the Federal Government but

the country as a whole at the present time.

I worked with Mr. Wilkins when I was Attorney General and

knew of the high regard in which he was held by his colleagues

and others who were associated with him. I think he will make a

worthy successor to Governor Collins, and I take great pleasure in

introducing him to the committee.
WILKINS NOMINATION 3

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate your coming here, because you

have had some experience in this field, particularly as Attorney General. I wanted to ask one question: when we passed the law, signed

in July, section 1103(b), we provided that the assistance shall all be

conducted in confidence and without publicity, and the Service shall

hold confidential any information acquired in the regular performance

of its duties upon the understanding that it would be so held.

Now, Senator Kennedy, when they did go out in a case, or their

services were asked and they got in a disagreement, would they

report to the Attorney General what happened?

Senator KENNEDY. At least while I was Attorney General, and

Governor Collins can bring it more up to date, they did not. They

kept the information confidential. They had a working relationship

with the Department of Justice, but the material and information

they gathered was confidential in their own organization and agency.

I thought that was important at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. Governor Collins, would you mind enlarging upon

that, so we can understand the procedures involved after you do

accomplish something, or you find you can't or you have been working

in a certain area of disagreement in the United States?

Mr. COLLINS. Well, Senator, that rule, written into the law, has

worked both ways. It has worked to tremendous advantage; at the

same time in some ways I think it has been a disadvantage. It has

been an advantage in obtaining the cooperation of people. Our men

have been able to go into a community and to meet people in conference and discussions and to get their cooperation under this rule

that I doubt very much they could have gotten otherwise.

The disadvantage, really, has been largely one of reputation and

strength of the Service. I think had the Congress been able to know

more of the detail of the work that has been done in different places,

why I think the agency would have had a stronger reputation and

perhaps could have been strengthened in its service because of that.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose that when you call upon an agency, in a

given performance of your duties, say the Attorney General, you

would probably take him into confidence as to what the situation was

and what you were trying to do and what your procedures were

trying to work out, which in turn would be held in confidence.

Mr. COLLINS. Well, that never did present any problem, working

with the Attorney General.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think overall this has been a wise provision?

Mr. COLLINS. I think overall, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In weighing everything?

Mr. COLLINS. Now the law does require we make an annual report

to the Congress.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I was coming to that. I understood from

Mr. Wilkins that that annual report will be ready for submission to

Congress within the next 30 days.

Mr. WILKINS. That is right, Mr. Chairman. It will be ready this

week, as a matter of fact.

Senator KENNEDY. Could I just say, also supplementing what

Governor Collins said, that I think it is very important and will be

very helpful to the country if we can settle in an amicable way these

problems that are facing all of us across the United States. And if

the Federal Government's authority and position can be used to
4 WILKINS NOMINATION

settle these matters, and move a community or move a State or move,

in fact, the country forward without having the Department of Justice

or some other agency move in with a stick or a club, I think it will be

much more satisfactory for the community, much more satisfactory

for the people living in the area of the country involved. So I have

always felt that the Community Relations Service, was one of the

most important parts of the civil rights legislation of 1963 and 1964

and, as I say, I think it has already accomplished a tremendous amount

of good under Governor Collins.

Many of the things that were accomplished were never publicized.

It was part of the purpose of the Service that its accomplishments

would not be publicized, part of the original understanding about its

mission. If there was a voluntary agreement between parties, they

didn't want it publicized. So a tremendous amount of good that

Governor Collins and the Service, under his direction, have accomplished really hasn't gotten as much public attention as it would have

otherwise.

But, as I say, having worked with Mr. Wilkins, I am sure that fine

standard will continue. I know he will accomplish a great deal.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we spent a lot of time, as you will recall, on

that section, getting the wording right, and over and over, and we are

hopeful it would work out the way we thought it should.

Senator Pastore, do you have any questions of Senator Kennedy on

this matter?

Senator PASTORE. Not particularly. But the thing that occurs to

me is the fact that nothing sells as well as success. And this is a very

sensitive area and I was wondering if some improvements hadn't

ought to be made so that it could be brought to the attention of the

public, the successes, as well as some of the failures.

After all, our people generally are very much interested in this area

and they should be, and I think a magnificent job has been done,

especially under Governor Collins, and it is regrettable sometimes

that we don't publicize the successes so we can make people understand

the worth of this organization.

I hear it so many times said, well, what do they accomplish? Well,

they accomplish a great deal. The only unfortunate thing is the

people don't know about it. I think if some of these things could be

brought to the attention of the American public, I think it would

inure to the benefit of the organization and to the tranquillity of the

country. On the other hand, you brought out, Mr. Kennedy, that

many times the participants themselves don't want the publicity, and

I think you have to respect them, otherwise you don't get anywhere.

So I guess it is just one of those things you have to live with. I think

some improvement ought to be made.

Mr. COLLINS. There is another side of it, too, Senator, if I can

interpose here. As we work with communities, we ought to give the

credit to the people of those communities. And having the credit,

getting the credit, why they were able to do a great deal more, I think,

than if it appeared to be that some Federal agency had come in and

was really directing them or coercing them or leading them in a

particular direction. So much depends upon credit, sometimes, and

how people feel in respect to what motivates them. And in all that

we did, we tried to give the local people the feel that they were doing

this themselves, which in fact they were.
WILKINS NOMINATION 5

We couldn't have done anything without local people actually

doing it. So there is that side of it, too.

Senator PASTORE. So it is your judgment you would let it stand

the way it is?

Mr. COLLINS. I would think so, at least for some more experience.

Senator PASTORE. I accept your judgment and that of Mr. Kennedy.

You know more about it than I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cotton?

Senator COTTON. No questions of the Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Would any of the rest of the committee like to ask

him questions?

The reason I suggest that is Mr. Kennedy has such broad experience

in this field as Attorney General.

Senator BASS. Mr. Chairman, the - only thing I would like to

say, being from the farthest point south in the country on this committee, I notice Senator Kennedy mentioned the North and the

problem in the North and his experience in the North.

Mr. Wilkins, I don't want you to take that as any limitation in

your work; we do expect you to do some work in the South also,

because we need community service there.

Mr. WILKINS. We fully expect to work in the South, also.

Senator COTTON. Mr. Chairman, the question I wanted to ask

Mr. Wilkins, perhaps Senator Kennedy would like to be present.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, let us proceed with Mr. Wilkins then.

Senator KENNEDY. May I be excused?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right. Thank you.

Mr. Wilkins' biography will be placed in the record at this point.

Senator Kennedy has covered a great deal of it already.

(The biography follows:)

BIOGRAPHY OF ROGER W. WILKINS

PERSONAL DATA

Born: March 25, 1932, Kansas City, Mo. ; married June 1956 to Eve Tyler, of

Cleveland, Ohio; two children, Amy T., born September 1959; David E., born

June 1964.

EDUCATION

Creston High School, Grand Rapids, Mich.; diploma June 1949. University of

Michigan, A.B., June 1953; and University of Michigan, LL.B., June 1956.

OCCUPATION

Lawyer—member of the New York State bar and admitted to Federal practice

in the southern district of New York.

EXPERIENCE

Law clerk: July 1956 to February 1957, Delson, Levin & Gordon, New York,

N.Y.

Public welfare caseworker: April 1957 to December 1957, Cuyahoga County

Welfare Department, Cleveland, Ohio. This work involved assessing the needs

of welfare recipients receiving assistance under the following programs: Aid to

the blind, aid to the aged, aid for dependent children and general city relief and

servicing a public welfare caseload located primarily in the high concentration, low

income Negro districts in Cleveland.

Associate attorney: Delson, Levin & Gordon, New York, N.Y., January 1958

to May 1962. This work involved representation of governments of developing

countries, their embassies in the United States, their missions to the United

Nations and their commercial activities. The work ranged from giving advice on

59-221--66-2
6 WILKINS NOMINATION

matters of pure international law to drafting and negotiating international commercial contracts. It also involved general commercial negligence and estate

litigation. 

Special assistant to the Administrator, Agency for International Development, May. 1962 to October 1964. The work involved giving confidential advice to the Administrator and follow up on a wide range of administrative, political,

personnel and policy matters.

Assistant Director of the Community Relations Service for Community Action,

October 1964 to December 1965. The work involved supervision of one of the

three principal offices of the agency. Its program was particularly directed at

the affirmative activities of the agency. It included the direction of the staff of a

Cabinet-level task force on urban problems which was appointed by the Vice

President to work in nine cities over the spring and summer of 1965.

MEMBER

Association of the Bar of the City of New York; American Bar Association;

board of directors, Hillcrest Children's Center, Washington, D.C.; board of

directors, Family and Child Service Agency, Washington, D.C.; -Urban League;

Inaugural Committee for the 45th Inauguration; NAACP.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cotton had one question.

Senator COTTON. Mr. Wilkins, I merely wanted, for the purposes

of the record to raise one matter. You and I had a conference in my

office yesterday, a very satisfactory conference, and I expect to

certainly vote for your confirmation. But there is one point that we

discussed—and the information you gave me was reassuring to me—

but for the purposes of the record, I suggested and I understood you

would welcome the point being raised today.

I raise this point, not because of the subject matter involved, and

certainly not because of your race, I would be asking the same question

of Governor Collins or Senator Kennedy or anyone else in your position.

Some time last year, I think it was around September 14, the

Evans-Novak column in the papers gave rise to my question. I

would ask permission, Mr. Chairman, that the article be made a part

of the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection.

(The article referred to follows:)

THE FEDERAL TEXTBOOKS

(By Rowland Evans and Robert Novak from the Washington Post, Sept. 14, 1965)

Tentative plans are quietly being made inside the Federal Government for a

long-range pressure campaign on local school boards and publishers to give the

Negro better treatment in history textbooks.

Although no final decision has been made, the top brass of the Community

Relations Service—created by the 1964 Civil Rights Act to help mediate racial

disputes—is leaning toward adoption of the plan. Indeed, it has already been

spelled out in some detail in a confidential memorandum drafted by Ben Holman,

head of the Service's media relations office.

Although the goal of giving the Negro his rightful place in history books is

commendable, there is considerable doubt whether the Community Relations

Service is empowered by law to perform this function. The 1964 act is to "provide assistance to communities and persons" in settling racial disputes—and

nothing more.

More fundamental, however, is the danger of the Federal Government getting

into the business of editing the Nation's schoolbooks. The authoritarian implications of Washington officials censoring what Johnny reads in school disturbs

even some officials at the Community Relations Service who look at the textbook

project with some misgivings.

The Holman memorandum on textbook revision begins by stating the problem:

"Negroes usually are ignored in textbook illustrations, and the Negro's role in

history is either ignored or inaccurately presented."
WILKINS NOMINATION 7

Consequently, Holman concludes, the Community Relations Service should

mount "a massive educational and informational campaign" directed at "publishers, school administrators and boards, parents' and teachers' groups" to get

the textbooks changed. Though this scarcely falls within the agency's statutory

mission, it seems generally inoffensive.

But the Holman memo goes on to suggest the beginnings of Federal high

pressure: "Once the educational and informational campaign is solidly underway,

we should conduct a systematic effort to contact all publishers and school boards

to encourage their publication and adoption of textbooks conforming to established

standards.'

The term "established standards" has a particularly ominous ring. The

intervention of many State legislatures (particularly throughout the Deep South)

in textbook selection is ominous. But the idea of the Federal leviathan with

its incomparable powers of coercion getting into the textbook business is enough

to make publishers break out in a cold sweat. It smacks of rewriting of history

in Orwellian style.

Actually, the textbook project is only the most far reaching of the Community

Relations Service's digressions from its legislative purpose.

The Service was originally conceived in 1960 by then Senator Lyndon B.

Johnson as a counterpart in racial relations to the Federal Mediation Service in

labor relations. The proposal went into the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

In operation, however, the Service has relegated mediation to a secondary

role. Only a handful of mediators are in the field while a Washington-based

staff dreams up projects such as the textbook scheme.

Holman also has in preparation elaborate programs of improving the treatment

of the Negro in the press establishing mobile exhibits for use at fairs and exhibitions and influencing Hollywood.

In a memorandum, Holman has suggested:

"We ought to mount a specific project aimed at Hollywood film makers to

produce films for purely entertainment purposes that would help further the

cause of better human relations * * * the current Negro revolution and the

crescendo of the civil rights movement provide a wealth of material for fiction

story plot. Plots centered on the problems of intergroup relations are as legion

as those for westerns."

This is Government propaganda—a domestic "Voice of America"—at its

worst. No matter how deep the need, the Federal Government has no right to

try to shape the thinking of Americans in such insidious ways: Besides, there is

a surplus of work for practical conciliation in every city in the Nation for the

Community Relations Service.

If textbooks need rewriting, the educators are the people to do it.

Senator COTTON. In this column Mr. Evans and Mr. Novak asserted

or at least implied that the Community Relations Service was attempting in someway to influence the rewriting or alteration of history

books in the schools on the ground that the history books used in the

schools did not fairly and adequately treat the Negro's place in our

history.

I am not raising that point. I have very little doubt that that is a

fact. What I was concerned about was whether or not the Community Relations Service, and what, if anything, they were doing in

the way of attempting to influence the history books or the text

books in the.schools.

In addition, there was an article put out by Congressman Pelly, of

Washington, which is mostly argumentative, but there was one

statement that appeared to be asserted as a fact, in which he says:

In a confidential memorandum, the Community Relations Service suggests

"once the educational and informational campaign is underway, we should

conduct a systematic effort to contact all publishers and school boards to encourage

their publication and adoption of textbooks conforming to established standards."

Now I repeat, my apprehension has nothing to do with the subject

matter, nothing to do with the racial problem, no question as to the

justification of criticism perhaps of the treatment the Negro is given
8 WILKINS NOMINATION

in our history books, but is purely directed to what seems to me a

very serious matter, that any arm of the Federal Government actually,

whether it is the Community Relations Service or the Department of

Health, Education, and Welfare, or anybody else, attempts to influence or to even dictate the subject matter of textbooks in our

schools.

I do not see in the act that it is part of the duty of the Community

Relations Service to participate in that kind of an effort.

I want to find out, first, what actually were the facts concerning

this in relation to the Community Relations Service, and, second, your

attitude toward it as director.

Mr. WILKINS. Well, Senator Cotton, as I indicated to you yesterday, the Evans-Novak article asserted that the memorandum was

confidential and it asserted that the "top brass of the agency is leaning

toward the adoption of this plan."

In fact, as I told you yesterday, the memorandum in question was

prepared by a new member, a then new member of the Community

Relations Service staff. He is the head of our media relations unit.

He was asked by his superiors to compile all of the program ideas

that had been floating around in that office prior to his arrival in a

memorandum which could then be studied by the executive staff of the

agency.

The memorandum was not an action memorandum. The purpose

of the memorandum was simply to put down in one place many ideas

that had come to the agency from a number of sources. This particular idea about Negro history had come to us from a very distinguished

member of our National Citizens Committee for Community Relations, whom President Johnson appointed at about the time he signed

the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

In fact, at the time when that article appeared, the memorandum

had been around in the office for about 6 weeks.

As a member of the executive staff of the agency, the memorandum

had come to me. I had not read it nor had the executive staff discussed it. In fact, I didn't read the memorandum until the President

announced his intention to nominate me as Director of the Service,

and then I thought I had better read it and find out something about it.

We are not 'leaning toward" urging anybody to rewrite history

books. In fact, we have not discussed the memorandum in the

executive staff of the agency.

I agree with you, as I indicated yesterday, that if this is to be done

it is an effort which should be undertaken by educators in the private

sector. I think it is inappropriate for the Government to undertake

efforts to indicate what should be printed in history textbooks,

philosophy textbooks, liberal arts textbooks, and so on.

Senator COTTON. I don't want to belabor the point, but I want to

be sure I understand you. Would you feel that it would be a part of

the duty of, or fall within the province of the Community Relations

Service to encourage or instigate a campaign on the part of private

educators and others of the public to rewrite the history books?

In other words, do you feel that is a part of the task that you have

to perform in the work of conciliating relations in the Community

Relations Service?

Mr. WILKINS. No, sir.
WILKINS NOMINATION 9

Senator COTTON. Would it be your opinion and position that the

Community Relations Service as such, and you as Director, would

refuse to participate in encouraging this campaign to rewrite the

textbooks regardless of whether they ought to be rewritten or not?

Mr. WILKINs. We wouldn't encourage the campaign.

Senator COTTON. I didn't quite get your answer.

Mr. WILKINS. I said we would not encourage the campaign.

Senator COTTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

There are a couple of other minor questions which I will save.

The CHAIRMAN. I see the nominee was raised in Grand Rapids,

Mich., and Senator Hart is familiar with the nominee and I want to

ask him if he wants to make a statement now or ask a few questions of

the nominee later.

Senator HART. Thank you very much. My colleagues may note

I was listed on the committee schedule as a witness. It was only

because it was thought when that list was prepared that Senator

Kennedy would not be able to present to the committee the witness.

Because of his place of origin and his educational experience, I was

then delighted to, in anticipation, to introduce him.

The need for the introduction having passed, I just want to say

that all I know, and I have known of Mr. Wilkins for several years,

is very good, and I hope the committee will favorably report on him.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. We will proceed with the questioning

of the nominee. I want to place also in the record title X of the

Civil Rights Act of July 2, 1964, which creates the authority to

establish the Community Relations Service and its duties.

(The matter referred to follows:)

TITLE X-ESTABLISHMENT OF COMMUNITY RELATIONS SERVICE

SEC. 1001. (a) There is hereby established in and as a part of the Department

of Commerce a Community Relations Service (hereinafter referred to as the

"Service"), which shall be headed by a Director who shall be appointed by the

President with the advice and consent of the Senate for a term of four years.

The Director is authorized to appoint, subject to the civil service laws and regulations, such other personnel as may be necessary to enable the Service to carry out

its functions and duties, and to fix their compensation in accordance with the

Classification Act of 1949, as amended. The Director is further authorized to

procure services as authorized by section 15 of the Act of August 2, 1946 (60

Stat. 810; 5 U.S.C. 55(a)), but at rates for individuals not in excess Of $75 per diem.

(b) Section 106(a) of the Federal Executive Pay Act of 1956, as amended

(5 U.S.C. 2205(a)), is further amended by adding the following clause thereto:

"(52) Director, Community Relations Service."

SEC. 1002. It shall be the function of the Service to provide assistance to

communities and persons therein in resolving disputes, disagreements, or difficulties relating to discriminatory practices based on race, color, or national origin

which impair the rights of persons in such communities under the Constitution

or laws of the United States or which affect or may affect interstate commerce.

The Service may offer its services in cases of such disputes, disagreements, or

difficulties whenever, in its judgment, peaceful relations among the citizens of

the community involved are threatened thereby, and it may offer its services

either upon its own motion or upon the request of an appropriate State or local

official or other interested person.

SEC. 1003. (a) The Service shall, whenever possible, in performing its functions

'

seek and utilize the cooperation of appropriate State or, local, public, or

private agencies.

(b) The activities of all officers and employees of the Service in providing

conciliation assistance shall be conducted in confidence and without publicity,

and the Service shall hold confidential any information acquired in the regular

performance of its duties upon the understanding that it would be so held. No

officer or employee of the Service shall engage in the performance of investigative
10 WILKINS NOMINATION

or prosecuting functions of any department or agency in any litigation arising

out of a dispute in which he acted on behalf of the Service. Any officer or other

employee of the Service, who shall make public in any manner whatever any

information in violation of this subsection, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $1,000 or

imprisoned not more than one year.

Sec. 1004. Subject to the provisions of sections 205 and 1003(b), the Director

shall, on or before January 31 of each year, submit to the Congress a report of the

activities of the Service during the preceding fiscal year.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Monroney?

Senator MONRONEY. I have just one question. Mr. Wilkins, do

you feel that we are giving enough emphasis to the Community

Relations Service and enough personnel in order to help guard against

the misunderstandings that have broken out in one or two places?

And if we do need other personnel, should it be organized at the State

level or should greater emphasis be placed on it at the national level?

Mr. WILKINS. I am not sure I understand your question, Senator

Monroney. Are you speaking of the Community Relations Service

itself or community relations activities generally throughout the

country?

Senator MONRONEY. No, as I understand it, the Service is Federal,

but it has the roots in the States, with State community relations

services set up as well. Is it supported financially well enough to

render the services that will be required of it?

Mr. WILKINS. I am very well satisfied with the figure in the

President's budget for the Services operations in fiscal year 1967.

That figure provides for an expansion of personnel of the Service, but

not so great an expansion that we will get indigestion. And I think

we will be able to do an effective job if the Congress gives us that

money.

Senator MONRONEY. You would prefer to grow in quality first

rather than quantity and then tailor it to meet the needs as they grow?

Mr. WILKINS. Precisely.

Senator MONRONEY. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cotton?

Senator COTTON. Mr. Wilkins, last Septemper President Johnson.

announced that the Community Relations Service would be transferred from the Department of Commerce to the Department of

Justice and he apparently will submit to Congress shortly a reorganization plan to carry out this change.

The change has given rise to some controversy. Senator Javits

for instance said in the Senate last week that he would oppose transfer

of the Community Relations Service to the Justice Department,

suggesting instead that it be placed in the Executive Office of the

President.

Do you have any view on this matter, and what effect do you

think these proposed changes might have on the work and the effectiveness of the Community Relations Service?

Mr. WILKINS. First of all, Senator Cotton, let me say that I have

respected and admired Senator Javits since I was taking political

science at the University of Michigan and he was the political scientists

favorite Congressman. But I disagree with him vigorously on this

issue.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and a number of Executive orders

created a number of agencies within the Federal Government with
WILKINS NOMINATION 11

civil rights responsibilities. The fact that there were a number of

agencies meant that in many instances people were tripping over

each other's toes. There was a clear need for greater coordination

in civil rights activities in order for them to be more effective.

The Attorney General has had a broad responsibility for carrying

out many of the provisions of the civil rights acts on the statute books.

The President looks to him as his principal adviser in the field of civil

rights.

It seems to me that if this agency is in the Department of Justice,

and if I, as Director, report to the Attorney General, the activities

and efforts which we undertake will be much more effective, because

they will be much better coordinated with the other civil rights activities in the Federal Government, including the title VI activities which

it is also the responsibility of the Attorney General to coordinate.

In the Department of Commerce we have received fine, unwavering

support from Secretary Hodges and then from Secretary Connor.

Governor Collins has, of course, supported us to the hilt. But it

seems to me that for the sake of coordination, for the sake of streamlining, for the sake of more effective activity it is appropriate for this

to go into the Department of Justice where I believe it will operate

very well.

All of my dealings with the Attorney General and his principal

assistants have led me to conclude that they support us very strongly.

With that kind of support I think that we will be very effective in the

Department of Justice.

Senator COTTON. I am sure that the Department of Justice is

always sincerely anxious to pacify, to conciliate, to compromise,

rather than to enforce with a big stick. Those of us who have ever

practiced law know that even when we are in litigation, as much of the

duty of an attorney is to compromise as to prosecute.

However, would you say that the public might be affected in the

thinking and feeling of both races by the attachment of a service

that Congress obviously wanted to keep completely conciliatory,

working to calm passion and secure cooperation by peaceful means

and without authority to enforce, to the Department that has always

on the other hand had the authority and the duty of enforcement of

the various civil rights acts of the Congress. Would you say there

was any possibility of the effectiveness of your conciliation service, of

your Community Relations Service, as a peaceful mediator being

reduced however justly or unjustly, by the fact that it is attached to

the Department that also and must at times use the big stick and

force to bring about its purpose?

Mr. WiLtnsTs. I doubt it, Senator Cotton. The program of the

Community Relations Service really grows out of the experience

of the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice.

In 1961, 1962, 1963, and 1964, before there was a Community Relations Service Burke Marshal and his assistants, including some of

the men now in the Community Relations Service, did a great deal of

conciliating in the South.

I think that experience was one of those which led a number of

people to conclude that the establishment of the Service would be a

good idea. They were effective, and not only were they in the

Department of Justice, but they were the same lawyers who would

have to be in the courtroom suing if the conciliation efforts were

unsuccessful.
12 WILKINS NOMINATION

My judgment is that if a community needs help and wants help,

it will accept help from thoroughly professional, thoroughly competent

individuals who can give them that help and that the fact the individual comes from a division of the Department of Justice will not

diminish his effectiveness at all.

Senator COTTON. Thank you.

Now, just reverting for a moment for one more question, because

I want to tie this textbook thing up entirely as far as I can in my own

mind. Your statement of attitude in regard to the changing of the

schoolbooks or supervising or influencing textbooks is entirely satisfactory to me and I appreciate it very much.

However, from what you told us about the origin of this suggestion,

did I understand correctly that this suggestion came from a member

of a board or committee appointed by the President?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir. In July of 1964 the President appointed

a committee called the National Citizens Committee for Community

Relations. That Committee is composed of about 455 prominent

people from all over the country. They were asked by the President

to augment the work of the Community Relations Service primarily

in the communities where they lived. And one of the members of

that Committee suggested to the CRS staff that the Negroes were

not accorded fair treatment in history books. This omission, he felt,

and I believe there is a great deal of truth in his view, helps to support

a largely negative attitude toward Negroes in America.

Senator COTTON. That suggestion came from one individual? Did

it come from 1 individual member only, or 450?

Mr. WILKINS. No; just one individual.

Senator COTTON. One individual.

Mr. WILKINS. That is right.

Senator COTTON. Did it come singly from this individual, or is a

part of a number of suggestions?

Mr. WILKINS. I really don't recall, Senator.

Senator COTTON. Were there a large number of suggestions made by

individual members of the President's Committee?

Mr. WILKINS. Well, there is an executive committee of which the

man of whom I am speaking is a member, and Arthur Green is Chairman of the National Citizens Committee and Chairman of the Executive Committee. And that Committee has met from time to time and

has made a number of suggestions to us, and has also done some very

excellent and effective work in supplementing our activities.

Senator COTTON. How many are on the Executive Committee?

Mr. WILKINS. Approximately 20, I think.

Senator COTTON. Was the individual who made this suggestion to

the Community Relations Service a member of the Executive Committee?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir.

" Senator COTTON. He was not just a member of the 450, he was a

member of the 20 on the Executive Committee?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir.

Senator COTTON. Do you know whether it was made in concert

with other suggestions by the Executive Committee or whether it was

discussed by the Executive Committee?

Mr. WILKINS. This occurred quite a while ago and it is my recollection that it was made by this man at a meeting where a number of
WILKINS NOMINATION 13

other ideas were suggested. This was just one. I don't recall that

•there was any discussion of it.

Senator COTTON. I read you a statement made by the Honorable

Thomas M. Pelly, Congressman from Washington, a statement purporting to be the fact, and I would like to send that down to you and

ask you to look at it and tell me whether—you have recently read

this recommendation, I believe you said, by the member of the

Committee?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir.

Senator COTTON. I would like to ask you if these words were contained in that recommendation.

Mr. WILKINS. Senator Cotton, I believe they were. I read this

about 3 or 4 weeks ago, but I believe these words were contained in

that paper.

Senator COTTON. You think probably that is a correct quotation?

Mr. WILKINS. I think so.

Senator COTTON. I would ask that be inserted in the record, not

the whole article, just this part.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

(The statement by Congressman Pelly is as follows:)

In a confidential memorandum, the Community Relations Service suggests:

"Once the educational and informational campaign is solidly underway, we

should conduct a systematic effort to contact all publishers and school boards

to encourage their publication and adoption of textbooks conforming to established standards."

Mr. WILKINS. I would like to repeat for your benefit, Senator, that

I have no intention of moving on this recommendation, acting on it,

or constructing a program around it.

Senator COTTON. That is very reassuring to me. I commend you

for it. These questions are not in any way directed to you in the

spirit of hostility or opposition. Frankly I was cohcerned in finding

out who and with what authority and how much influence the person

had that was suggesting that the Community Relations Service

interest itself or any other branch of the Government—of the Federal

Government, in influencing the rewriting of history textbooks. And

you have been very frank and I commend you for it; I appreciate it;

and as far as your own attitude is concerned, I am entirely reassured

and shall take pleasure in voting for your confirmation.

Mr. WILKINS. Thank you very much, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Senator Bartlett.

Senator BARTLETT. Mr. Wilkins, how many people are there or

the Federal payroll of the Community Relations Service?

Mr. WILKINS. We have 67 authorized positions.

Senator BARTLETT. What is the budget for the current fiscal year?

Mr. WILKINS. $1,300,000.

Senator BARTLETT. What is proposed for next year?

Mr. WILKINS. $2 million.

Senator BARTLETT. That is all. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. The budget recommendation is $2 million.

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It comes under the Commerce Department

budget as of now?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes. It does.
14 WILKINS NOMINATION

The CHAIRMAN. I want to place in the record, because this has

been mentioned here, that Senator Javits said and I quote from his

letter:

I would like you and the committee to know I favor this nomination and I

consider Mr. Wilkins to be an outstanding choice for this position. In doing so,

I want to make it clear, however, that I intend to file a resolution of disapproval

to the President's plan to reorganize the Community Relations Service, for I

object strongly to the placement of this conciliatory agency in the Department

of Justice.

All right, Senator Hartke.

Senator HARTKE. Mr. Wilkins, do you feel that you are making

satisfactory progress today? Do you think that if you were going to

give it a grade it would be bad, poor, good, or excellent?

Mr. WILKINS. I think the agency, as an agency, is making real

progress, very good progress. I think that the state of race relations

in this country, however, leaves a good deal to be desired.

Senator HARTKE. You mean the agency is functioning well, in its

mechanics, or as to the results they are obtaining?

Mr. WILKINS. Both, sir.

Senator HARTKE. In both. Do you feel by expanding the agency

that more could be accomplished?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir, I do.

Senator HARTKE. How much expansion would you envision would

be necessary to make a successful program?

Mr. WILKINS. Well, the $2 million budget recommendation would

provide for an expansion of about 40 people, I think. That is an

approximation. I haven't the exact figures in my pocket. The

problem has been that because our staff has been so limited—we

have only 32 professionals—we find it difficult to serve many of the

requests which we get for assistance.

We also have to run some very, very able and dedicated people

almost into the ground. They spend a great deal of time away from

home. Moreover, this work does not stop at 5 o'clock, because

many of the people with whom they have to confer are only available

in the evening, and many of the meetings are held at night, so this is

8 o'clock in the morning to midnight work. It sometimes goes on

much longer.

These fellows are away from their wives and families for great

stretches of time, including weekends, and if we don't get an increase

in staff we are going to lose some very good people, because they

just can't keep up that pace and they shouldn't be expected to.

Senator HARTKE. You said the agency, you thought, was operating

very well. The point about it is you also state you thought the

race relations left something to be desired.

Do you feel there is material improvement there or do you feel we

are slipping backward, or do you feel we are making satisfactory

progress?

Mr. WILKINS. Oh, Senator Hartke, I wouldn't think that there

would be progress that you could call satisfactory until much, much,

much more injustice is eradicated from our country.

I think that in some respects we have made spectacular progress.

The way the country has moved has significantly benefited middleclass Negroes. We have begun to get some good opportunities in

business and industry and a few of us have moved into high levels of

government in a way that I wouldn't have foreseen 10 years ago.
WILKINS NOMINATION 15

However, the very poor Negroes, both South and North, are still

perhaps as badly off as they were 10 years ago. There are some

statistics which indicate that the gap between the Negro median

income and the white median income has widened. We have not yet

found ways to provide good educations, adequate educations for

great numbers of the impoverished Negro children, both North and

South. We haven't found ways to employ very large numbers of

unemployed Negroes.

The Negro unemployment rate is about twice that for white people.

And then of course there are clear problems of physical security in

the South. When an American citizen has problems of physical

security, because he wants to vote, I am not satisfied and the President

is not satisfied.

The problems, as you well know, the real problems of fair juries

still exist in the South. There are housing problems all over the

country. Most of this doesn't just apply to Negroes. It applies

to Puerto Ricans; it applies to Mexican-Americans; and to some

extent it also applies to American Indians.

So, although I am very pleased with the progress that the Community Relations Service made under Governor Collins, pleased with

the many, many, many instances in which we have been able to be

helpful, I just feel that there is an enormous task still to be done, one

of which I want to be a part.

Senator HARTKE. How much exposure have you had to the various

aspects of the so-called antipoverty program?

Mr. WILKINS. Well, I have worked with them on a number of

projects, in a number of cities.

Senator HARTKE. What has been your experience with these projects, and specifically what parts of them, and if you would, identify

those projects which you had an opportunity to observe and what

their results have been?

Mr. WILKINS. I am familiar with some of the Neighborhood Youth

Corps project that were put into effect last summer in a number of

cities in the North. I thought those were very effective in putting

young people to work in positions which gave them some training

that would hopefully make them more employable. I was very

impressed by them.

Senator HARTKE. Were these programs that you would consider in

this classification of the very poor, or were they more the middle class?

Mr. WILKINS. No, sir; these were the very poor.

Senator HARTKE. Did that materially affect their opportunities, do

you think? Has it made it possible for them to bring themselves

from that status in which they were prior to that?

Mr. WILKINS. I think it has helped them. I think it was very

helpful.

Senator HARTKE. Have you had any opportunity to see the camp

programs, the youth camp programs?

Mr. WILKINS. No, sir. I have not observed the Job Corps programs.

Senator HARTKE. Is there any way in which you could relate what

happens to those young people when they come back into the communities at all, or when they are taken from the communities, as to

what is happening with the number of people who are taken out and

then reestablished in the community, whether they are better off or
16 WILKINS NOMINATION

whether or not this is a program which is producing the desired

results in this field?

Mr. WILKINS. I couldn't comment on that now.

Senator HARTKE. If you can't comment on it, we will let it go.

All right. What about the operation of Headstart? Have you had

a chance to observe that?

Mr. WILKINS. I have seen a couple of Headstart classes. I have

been told a lot more about Headstart by people who are involved in

it. And I believe that is a very constructive program. The ones I

saw were certainly constructive.

Senator HARTKE. We hear a lot about so-called—in the business

world today—"overheating," and the fact that unemployment has

reached the place where it should not be reduced any longer, any

further, beyond the 4 percent; that we need about 4 percent unemployed people in the Nation in order to provide for the source of

manpower which is necessary to keep us going.

Do you subscribe to this theory?

Mr. WILKINS. No, sir. With respect to unemployed members of

minority groups, I flatly disagree. I think that much of the social

disintegration we observe among these groups is directly attributable

to the fact that fathers can't get jobs. And I think as long as we

have large pools of people in this country who have no hope of gaining

full employment which will give them some pride in themselves and

give their wives and children some pride in them, that we are just

asking for a lot of trouble. So I really don't subscribe to the overheating theory.

Senator HARTKE. In line with it, some of these people say, "But

the difficulty with most of the people in this category is they really

have no training or any background with which they can be employed." In other words, they say although they are technically

unemployed, they are so-called unemployable.

Do you see any break in this cycle? Is there anything being done

in this field or any opportunity for change here that you would

recommend?

Mr. WILKINS. I think the administration's programs, some of those

which you have mentioned, plus the Manpower Development and

Training Act programs, plus some private activities I have seen, offer

great hope. And I think the community action program of the Office

of Economic Opportunity offers hope, as do the work education training and adult basic education programs of the Department of Health,

Education, and Welfare. They offer hope, but I think that a lot

more needs to be done.

Senator HARTKE. In this field do you think possibly if we could

encourage more of the private sector to take over this training program, thereby allowing them a tax credit as was recommended in a

measure which was introduced by Senator Javits, which I cosponsored,

which later was announced as a Republican program which is all

right with me, I am not worried about who takes the tide to it, but do

you think such a program has any desirability?

Mr. WILKINS. Well, I certainly believe the Government cannot

solve this problem by itself. The Government should help. The

programs we already have are constructive and useful. But if the

private sector doesn't become more deeply involved, wholeheartedly

involved, we are not going to solve the problem. And without
WILKINS NOMINATION 17

knowing the specifics of the measure you just mentioned, I would say generally that whatever efforts there are to encourage the private

sector to become involved, to encourage private businesses to work

on this problem effectively, are very good.

Senator HARTKE. Do you have any comments to make in regard

to the so-called charge about that many people are on welfare and find it to their advantage to stay on public welfare? You have heard that charge.

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir.

Senator HARTKE. What is your comment on that?

Mr. WILKINS. I would say by and large, in my experience, it is

not true. As Senator Kennedy indicated when he was here, I worked

as a welfare worker in Cleveland, Ohio, 9 years ago. I had about

120 families in my caseload. The majority of them—not all of them

were Negroes, but the majority of them were. The majority of the

people in my caseload didn't want to be on welfare. They wanted

to work. As a matter of fact the ones with whom I was able to

establish a real relationship, in which they communicated with me

honestly, told me they thought welfare was degrading, and if they

had opportunities to work they would take them. So I disagree

with that view.

Senator HARTKE. As a director of the Community Relations

Service, would you feel it would be within the purview of your position

to make such recommendations which could possibly do something

to accelerate the removal of this large bulk of so-called povertystricken groups in the Negro category and to make recommendations

which you feel would make a material change within the immediate

future? Is that within your idea of what the position is, or is this

beyond the scope of the authority which you feel you have?

Mr. WILKINS. I think, Senator, that it is not technically within

the purview of the authority vested in the Director of the Community

Relations Service. But obviously if the Senate confirms me in this

post I will be one of the principal civil rights officers in the Government and as such I will be asked to give my views on a wide range of

subjects affecting civil rights. Governor Collins was asked such

questions and still is. So I would expect to make that contribution.

Senator HARTKE. And you wouldn't hesitate.

Mr. WILKINS. No, sir, I certainly would not.

Senator HARTKE. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Scott?

Senator SCOTT. Mr. Wilkins, just two questions, I believe.

While most of the discussion has touched on the largest group in

our country, the Negro group, as being involved in the community

relations commitment, I think the record ought to show that there

are of course- numerous other groups whose problems are within the

scope of this agency. I have in mind of course the Puerto Ricans, 112

a number of American cities, the Spanish-Americans, MexicanAmericans, as they are variously called, along our southern and southwestern borders. You have mentioned some of the Indians. Would

you comment on that?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir.

I firmly believe that the work the Service has to be involved with

the problems of those people too, and I think I mentioned it earlier.

Having lived in New York, I know, firsthand, something about the
18 WILKINS NOMINATION

problems of the Puerto Ricans in the city of New York. I have,

m my work in the last year, learned something about the problems

of the Mexican-Americans in the Southwest. And our agency has

been involved in both kinds of problems and in the problems of the

American Indians, and I would expect that involvement to continue.

Senator SCOTT. I observed that in my city the development of

leadership within the Negro community itself in the last 10 years

has been in marked contrast with the period before that. And I

would like to ask how the Community Relations Service intends to

work on the development of leadership among minority groups, just

how you would proceed to do that.

I recall, for example, the rapid drop in the illiteracy rate in the

Republic of Mexico after the introduction of each-one-teach-one program. I think it is a fair comment that certainly in some parts of

the country Negro groups have not developed leadership within the

group to the degree which would be regarded as approaching a

maximum capacity to help.

What are your views on that?

Mr. WILKINS. Well, I think it is clear, Senator Scott, that good,

effective, solid leadership is essential if the progress of the Negro

people in this country is to continue. We make it clear, as Governor

Collins indicated, in our work, that what happens in a community

where we are working is not really the product or the result of our

effort, but that it is the product and result of the effort of people in

the community. And we can't stay in every community where we

work to forcefeed progress. The people in the community have to

do it. And we impress this upon the people, Negro and white,

wherever we work. And we attempt to identify strong Negro leadership in these communities.

And we attempt to make sure that these people are in positions

where they are able to continue to work effectively in the community

after we leave. It is one of the things we do as a matter of course

and we would expect to continue that.

Senator SCOTT. But do you agree that there is a great potential

here which depends in part upon the arousing of the spirit of responsibility within the group itself?

Mr. WILKINS. I think that the Negro community in most cities in

our country doesn't begin to move until it is organized effectively and

until its spokesmen can articulate its aims and its grievances effectively. I would not, however, subscribe to a theory that is abroad

these days, that it is up to the Negro middle class to solve this problem

all by itself.

The Negro middle class can't solve it all by itself. The Negro

middle class, A, is not large enough, and B, is not powerful enough.

The Negro middle class does not own factories by and large, Negroes

are not mayors of cities. They don't have a majority on city councils.

So that with the rise in effectiveness of Negro leadership, it is still

absolutely necessary for the great bulk of the white people in this

country to be concerned about this problem, to help and to work on

it as effectively as possible.

Senator SCOTT. Well, I think your appointment is an excellent

augury for the success of the program and I take a great deal of

pleasure in having the opportunity to vote for your confirmation.

Mr. WILKINS. Thank you very much, Senator.
WILKINS NOMINATION 19

Senator SCOTT. I appreciate your answers to the questions. As

you know, they are directed toward informing myself and toward my

efforts to be helpful insofar as the work of the program is concerned.

Mr. WILKINS. I know that. Thank you very much, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wilkins, of course don't you sometimes run

into this situation—I get this impression in some places—that there

is a lot of leadership around, but everybody wants to play quarterback

and the result is the leadership of the team gets a little disorganized.

Now I can see more progress in that field, but in the beginning

I think sometimes our objectives become obscured by leadership not

seeming to, or at least creating the impression that they are not

working together. I think Governor Collins found that out, too, in

some cases. That is no criticism of it, because there is leadership in

all of these groups. But sometimes they work at too many crosspurposes. Of course, the Negro community have no monopoly on

that at all. That happens every place. But we do have some real

objectives as you can see and sometimes if they would all work toward

them, rather than at cross-purposes, you would move faster.

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you one question: You were called in

the Service, to Seattle last summer, is that correct?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you go in on your own initiative, or did the

local authorities ask you to come, do you recall?

Mr. WILKINS. We were asked, I think, by a private citizen in

Seattle.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you recall whether or not the local officials

asked you to come in on that situation?

Mr. WILKINS. I don't recall.

The CHAIRMAN. But they were cooperative when you did go there.

Mr. WILKINS. Marvelously cooperative; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The police department and the mayor and all of

those people.

Mr. WILKINS. Indeed they were.

The CHAIRMAN. I think this is a case where you can show part of a

success story. That was a very, very tense situation there for a few

days. I happened to be at home in Seattle, and I knew it, you could

feel it. But I was wondering, because the law says you can go yourself, if you wish, on your own initiative—but you can also be asked

to come in by people or officials.

As I recall, Governor Collins testified that he was hopeful in the

majority of the cases, the vast majority, that they would call upon

you to come in, rather than you taking some initiative and maybe

creating some resentment. And I think your report is going to show

that in—I hcrpe it does—in most cases you were asked to come by

responsible people to help avert a situation that might get worse.

Now the Watts situation. Were you called into that or were you a

part of that, or could you give us, just briefly, what relationship

you had to that situation? If any?

Maybe the Governor would like to testify to that?

Mr. WILKINS. Governor Collins was, by that time, Under Secretary of Commerce and the President asked him to go to Los Angeles

as his representative. Governor Collins asked me to go with him
20 WILKINS NOMINATION

as his assistant, and I was there with him for about a week. Governor

Collins then returned to Washington and I stayed on.

Ramsey Clark, the Deputy Attorney General, came out and I

stayed on to serve as a liaison between the two efforts. I stayed on

another week or so with Mr. Clark.

While he was there Governor Collins was instrumental in helping

the people in Los Angeles come to an agreement on a poverty board

through which poverty programs could be channeled into Los Angeles.

He wouldn't say it, but I think his efforts were remarkable. It was

a long and gruelling effort. But essentially what he was doing was

the same thing the Service does, and that was just helping the people

in the community.

The Deputy Attorney General then came to Los Angeles. He led a

team composed of the Assistant Secretary of Commerce, Dr. Brimer,

and the then Deputy Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity,

Mr. Conway, in putting together a package of Federal programs

which we hoped would be helpful, not just in Watts, but in the whole

Los Angeles area, including the Mexican-American community.

That is about the extent of my involvement.

The CHAIRMAN. Well it seems to me that you have got to—I don't

suggest that you haven't been working closely with the poverty program—but it seems to me that you must continue it, if you have, or

even exert a little more effort, because I think some of the basis of

this unrest, where there might be some unrest, is due to—it might be

maybe not getting together on the poverty program, or not seeing

what results might come from not doing certain things, or may be help

mediate the sometimes terrific internal arguments in a poverty

program as to how to proceed, by the local people themselves.

And there again I say you have no monopoly on these arguments

that go on. But the great part of the success of this program is going

to be how the poverty program works, particularly in the pockets that

were mentioned here today.

I am not an expert on the Seattle situation—the Seattle situation

was more a civil rights and emotional matter, but from all I read of

the Watts situation, it gets right down to the grassroots of the economic problems involved and that is why it seems to me you have to

continue to keep constantly vigilant with the people who run these

local programs to be helpful to them.

Mr. WILKINS. I quite agree, Mr. Chairman. We have worked

with the poverty program very closely in the past and will continue

to do so.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I would hope so. Because there is no one

who would suggest the objectives of the poverty program are not good.

The problem of course is in the administration, how it is being handled,

and some places it is good, some places maybe not so good. But it

all indirectly is going to effect what you have to do here.

Mr. WILKINS. I quite agree, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hart?

Senator HART. Mr. Chairman, not so much a question, although if

Mr. Wilkins would want to comment, I would welcome it.

Earlier Senator Cotton raised this matter of which is the more appropriate banch for you to operate in, the Department of Justice or the

Department of Commerce and you, as I understand it, thought that

because of the ability effectively to coordinate all civil rights activities
WILKINS NOMINATION 21

in the Justice Department that that was the more logical place. I

must admit having some concern and a little difficulty because I

understand also that a key to the success of your program lies in the confidence that confidences will be kept, the communities and com- munity leaders, public officials heretofore have felt that in talking to

you they were talking to, if not a neutral party, a party not associated with law enforcement.

How can we insure that fullest disclosure and absolute freedom and give and take will continue if, instead of being the representative of the Department of Commerce you are found to be a representative of the Department of Justice?

Mr. WILKINS. Well, Senator Hart, I think that the best answer to that is one I tried to give in answer to the question from Senator

Cotton.

In the early 1960's a great deal of very effective conciliating work

was done by precisely the people who if the conciliation efforts failed,

would go into the courtroom to try the case. Those people were lawyers in the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice. And we have found, Senator Hart, when people in the communities

see that they have a problem and really want help that if you send a

man who has good judgment and knowledge, is tactful and discreet,

that that man will be accepted for the assistance he can give. Because of the very successful experience of the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice and because of my conviction that it is the

competence of the staff that really tells the tale, I just don't share

your misgivings.

Senator HART. Certainly we respect your judgment, but I am not

altogether convinced that we can assume the attitude that existed in

the first explosion in the early days, where all was confusion and no

one was particularly identified as policemen or mediators, that the

atmosphere of that time will continue as we become more formalized

in our efforts to resolve some of the pressure points.

Mr. WILKINS. I have one other point I might make on this subject.

In the great majority of States, which have civil rights legislation

both enforcement and conciliation activities, both activities are housed

within the same agency and it has worked effectively. I think it is

true in Michigan, as a matter of fact.

Senator HART. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I think

we ought to thank Governor Collins for a service that benefited the

Nation even in regions where they are not conscious they owe you

thanks.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Senator Dominick?

Senator DOMINICK. Mr. Wilkins, what has been the relationship

between the Service and the State Anti-Defamation Leagues, or its

conciliation services in the respective States?

Mr. WILKINS. We are in the process of developing a program of

liaison with private organizations which have an interest and programs in this field. We exchange information with them on programs that have been successful in the past. They tell us, so we can

use the programs in our community work. If we learn of good programs which we can pass on without violating the confidentiality

provisions of our statute, we do so.
22 WILKINS NOMINATION

We work with a wide variety of private organizations ranging from

Boy Scouts, the NAM, to the American Jewish. Committee, the

Anti-Defamation League, and we would hope to strengthen those

efforts. We think it is a useful activity.

Senator DOMINICK. What about the official agencies of the States?

Mr. WILKINS. We also work with them. We sometimes try to,

encourage the States to form them. Just this week I had a long

conversation with the Director of the Missouri Commission on Human

Relations. We were exploring areas in which we thought our mutual

efforts would be constructive.

So we do take every opportunity to work with the official agencies

in the States.

Senator DOMINICK. How many States have such agencies at the

present time, do you know?

Mr. WILKINS. Something over 20, I think.

Senator DOMINICK. When you have a case referred to you from a

State where there is in existence such an agency, do you refer it to

them?

Mr. WILKINS. We would certainly be in touch with them and we

would ask whether this was the kind of problem with which they

felt they could deal effectively. We would ask them whether they

felt that mutual efforts would be constructive. As soon as a complaint comes in from a State which has such an agency, we contact,

them.

Senator DOMINICK. The statute is pretty specific on this. It says,

The Service shall, whenever possible in performing its functioning, seek and

utilize the cooperation of appropriate State or local public or private agencies.

Is this being followed pretty generally, do you feel?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact we have just taken a.

step within the agency which we hope will strengthen those efforts.

We have taken a man who has been very effective as a conciliator, but

whose prior experience was in a city agency and given him the responsibility of supervising some of our other employees who have been

working in this field for some months now. We do think this is a very

important part of our effort.

We think that these agencies, the public agencies, both State and

local, have a great potential for being the most effective means of

assuring peaceful community progress toward justice. We want to

strengthen that activity even more.

Senator DOMINICK. Do you feel this particular provision of the.

statute overrules the requirements of confidentiality? And if not,,

how do you work it out?

Mr. WILKINS. Well the legislative history makes it fairly clear that

in working on specific problems we can divulge, on a need-to-know

basis, information which would otherwise be classified as confidential,

to other organizations which are involved constructively on the same

problem.

Senator DOMINICK. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Wilkins.

Mr. WILKINS. Thank you, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. This isn't a facetious question, because there are

three Senators here that have these problems. Have you had any

relationship at all in this Service with Indians?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir.
WILKINS NOMINATION 23

The CHAIRMAN. You deal of course with the Interior Department,

I suppose, in that respect?

Mr. WILKINS. Yes; we do.

The CHAIRMAN. Then if some of the legislation that is being proposed which will dissolve the reservations and things, I presume you might, when these people move around more, have some problems

there?

Mr. WILKINS. We have had some problems. We are currently

engaged in one problem which involves Indians, and we would expect this work to continue.

The CHAIRMAN. Well if there are no further questions, we appreciate your coming. Your financial statement is filed with the committee and anyone can look at it if he wishes.

Governor Collins, we appreciate your coming here and we will be

seeing you later on other matters, I guess.

Governor COLLINS. Thank you.

Senator MONRONEY. Mr. Chairman, before we adjourn, I would

like to express my appreciation, as I know other members of the committee wish to, and have, on the wonderful job that Governor Collins

did in establishing this, winning by his fair administration of all

concerned the respect and admiration for this Service. I think he is

passing it along to Mr. Wilkins in excellent shape and we are tremendously grateful to you for a very difficult job very well done.

Governor COLLINS. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. And we will be looking forward to your report,

Mr. Wilkins.

Mr. WILKINS. We will have the report in very soon. Thank you,

Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

The committee will go into executive session.

(Whereupon, at 12 noon the committee adjourned to consider

other business.)

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