Office of Infrastructure Protection

National Protection and Programs Directorate

U.S. Department of Homeland Security 

Washington, DC 20528

CHEMICAL FACILITY ANTI-TERRORISM STANDARDS

ADVANCE NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING

WEST COAST WEBINAR LISTENING SESSION HELD ON

SEPTEMBER 12, 2014

CONTENTS:

Agenda

Transcript
Chemical Facility Anti-Terrorism Standards

Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (CFATS ANPRM)

September 12, 2014 Public Listening Session Webinar

Hosted by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)

Agenda

(All Times PDT)

10:00 a.m. – 10:15 a.m. Welcome and Overview

Kate Finnerty, Facilitator

Amy Graydon, Department of Homeland Security, Office of Infrastructure Protection

10:15 a.m. – 10:20 a.m. Ground Rules for Public Listening Session

Kate Finnerty, Facilitator

10:20 a.m. – 11:20 a.m. Commencement of Public Listening Session

11:20 a.m. – 11:50 a.m. Open Session (if time allows)

11:50 a.m. – 12:00 p.m. Closing Remarks and Adjournment

Persons may also submit written comments to U.S. Department of Homeland Security, National Protection and Programs Directorate, 

Office of Infrastructure Protection, Infrastructure Security Compliance Division, 245 Murray Lane, Mail Stop 0610, Arlington, VA 20528-0610 

or through the Federal eRulemaking Portal at http://www.regulations.gov.

For more information on the CFATS ANPRM, please visit https://www.dhs.gov/CFATS-Rulemaking.
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 CHEMICAL FACILITY ANTI-TERRORISM STANDARDS

 ADVANCE NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING

 WEBINAR LISTENING SESSION

 Conducted by Kate Finnerty and Amy Graydon

 Friday, September 12, 2014

 Commencing at 1:01 p.m. EDT

 4601 N. Fairfax Drive, Suite 900

 Arlington, Virginia 22203

Reported by: LaQuicia Thomas

 Bay Area Court Reporting, Inc.
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. FINNERTY: Good morning and welcome to

3 the listening session for the Chemical Facility

4 Anti-Terrorism Standards Advance Notice of Proposed

5 Rulemaking, or CFATS ANPRM, that was issued by the

6 U.S. Department of Homeland Security on August 18th,

7 2014. We are glad that you are able to join us today

8 on the webinar.

9 This is the third listening session in a

10 series that will be held across the country,

11 including two via webinar and six in person.

12 My name is Kate Finnerty with Energetics

13 Incorporated. DHS, who is leading the proposed

14 rulemaking, has arranged for me to moderate today's

15 listening session.

16 Before we get started, I would like to make

17 a couple of announcements. First, I would like to

18 respectfully request that all participants exercise

19 standard webinar and phone etiquette, including

20 placing your phone on mute, refraining from using the

21 hold function and being mindful of any background

22 noise when you are selected to speak.

23 After the opening remarks and prior to

24 opening the public listening session, we will review

25 the functions of the webinar screen that you are
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1 currently seeing. Of note is the ability for you to

2 indicate if you would like to provide public comment

3 during the webinar. When it is your turn to speak, I

4 will ask the operator to open your line.

5 The comments provided during this session

6 are being transcribed for note-taking purposes. A

7 transcript of each listening session will be posted

8 on a docket in the Federal Register at a later date.

9 Audio of this session will not be retained.

10 The purpose of today's session is to gather

11 public comments, data or views on how the current

12 CFATS regulation, also known as 6 CFR, Part 27,

13 issued in 2007, might be modified. Issuing the

14 Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking enables the

15 Department to provide stakeholders with an

16 opportunity to provide comments and suggestions for

17 identifying ways to make the program more effective

18 in achieving its regulatory objectives.

19 For our agenda this morning, we are going

20 to begin with welcoming remarks, which will include a

21 brief overview of the status of the CFATS program.

22 The remainder of the session will be dedicated to

23 hearing from you, the stakeholders. During closing

24 remarks, we will include instructions on how to

25 obtain additional information about the listening
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1 sessions.

2 At this time, I would like to introduce

3 Ms. Amy Graydon, Branch Chief with the DHS

4 Infrastructure Security Compliance Division, to

5 provide welcome remarks.

6 Ms. Graydon.

7 MS. GRAYDON: Thank you, Kate.

8 I would like to thank all the participants

9 for joining us today, this afternoon on the East

10 Coast and in the morning on the West Coast, as we're

11 going to embark on this important effort to look at

12 the -- as we think about the next generation of the

13 Chemical Facility Anti-Terrorism Standards program.

14 The Homeland faces a persistent and

15 evolving threat from terrorist groups and cells.

16 Chemical facilities potentially are attractive

17 targets as a successful attack on some chemical

18 facilities could potentially cause a significant

19 number of deaths and injuries. Certain chemical

20 facilities possess materials that could be stolen or

21 diverted and used as/or converted into weapons for

22 use off site.

23 In Section 550 of the DHS Appropriations

24 Act of 2007, Congress authorized the Department to

25 regulate security at high-risk chemical facilities.
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1 Under Section 550, covered facilities must perform

2 Security Vulnerability Assessments or SVAs. Covered

3 facilities must perform -- excuse me, Security

4 Vulnerability Assessments, SVAs, and implement Site

5 Security Plans, SSPs, containing security measures

6 that meet the DHS defined Risk-Based Performance

7 Standards. The Department developed the Chemical

8 Facility Anti-Terrorism Standards, or CFATS, to

9 implement this authority.

10 To determine if a facility is subject to

11 CFATS, DHS looks at the unique circumstances faced by

12 the facility starting with the quantities of

13 chemicals of interest, COI as we call them, the

14 facility possesses. Potential regulation is not

15 based on the facility type, meaning that many

16 different types of facilities may be subject to

17 CFATS, including chemical manufacturers, warehouse

18 and distributors, chemical repackaging operations,

19 oil and gas operations, hospitals, semiconductor

20 manufacturers, paint manufacturers, colleges and

21 universities and mining facilities.

22 Congress did exempt several types of

23 facilities from regulation. Facilities regulated

24 under the Maritime Transportation Security Act,

25 facilities subject to regulation by the Nuclear
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1 Regulatory Commission, facilities owned and operated

2 by the Departments of Defense or Energy as well as

3 public water systems and water treatment works

4 regulated under certain federal water quality laws

5 administered by the U.S. Environmental Protection

6 Agency.

7 Since the program's inception, more than

8 3,000 facilities have voluntarily removed or reduced

9 the onsite quantities of COI or modified processes to

10 the point where they are no longer considered high

11 risk. These actions have helped reduce the number of

12 high-risk chemical facilities throughout the Nation

13 and have correspondingly made the Nation more secure.

14 As of September 8th, 2014, CFATS covers

15 3,869 facilities. Of those, 3,148 are final-tiered

16 facilities and 721 are preliminarily-tiered

17 facilities across all 50 states.

18 DHS has received and is in the process of

19 reviewing an estimated 4,600 SSPs and Alternative

20 Security Programs. Of these, 2,082 SSPs have been

21 authorized and 1,073 have been approved. The first

22 authorization inspection was conducted during the

23 summer of 2010. And as of September 8th, 2014, we

24 have conducted over 1,471 AIs.

25 The Infrastructure Security Compliance
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1 Division is working to continuously strengthen the

2 program and improve implementation of CFATS.

3 Although work remains to be done, in the past two

4 years, significant progress has been made. This

5 includes improving the SSP review process and

6 increasing the pace of the Site Security Plan reviews

7 and approvals, engagement with industry on the

8 development of their ASP templates, working with

9 experts to evaluate and validate or recommend ways to

10 improve the CFATS risk--tiering methodology and

11 introducing game-changing initiatives such as one-day

12 inspections with smaller inspection teams, our

13 corporate approach for companies with multiple

14 facilities and increased pre-inspection coordination

15 and outreach.

16 Alternative Security Programs are one path

17 to compliance. ISCD is also exploring with industry

18 the possibility of creating segment-specific ASPs

19 that include options for best practices that may

20 apply to certain types of facilities. We have met

21 with various industry associations such as the

22 National Association of Chemical Distributors on this

23 topic and continue to look for new opportunities for

24 engagement.

25 The work industry has done with the
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1 Department to develop ASP templates is a prime

2 example of how agency implementing a regulatory

3 program like CFATS can work with industry to develop

4 the tools that answer the regulatory needs while also

5 accounting industry realities and how industry

6 associations can support the DHS mission.

7 The Department supports a permanent

8 authorization for the CFATS program and is committed

9 to working with Congress and other security partners

10 to establish permanent authority for the CFATS

11 program. DHS firmly believes permanent authorization

12 will provide industry with the necessary stability to

13 move forward in effectively implementing CFATS and

14 will send a clear message to facilities that may be

15 seeking to avoid their obligation to report dangerous

16 chemicals. And we want to emphasize that the CFATS

17 program is here to stay.

18 H.R. 4007, the CFATS Authorization and

19 Accountability Act of 2014, was passed in the U.S.

20 House of Representatives on July 8th, 2014. The bill

21 would permanently authorize the CFATS program and

22 authorize appropriation for three fiscals years. The

23 Senate committee on Homeland Security and

24 governmental affairs passed the Senate version of the

25 bill on July 30th, 2014. We are grateful that
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1 Congress has recognized the progress of the program.

2 In August 2013, President Obama issued

3 Executive Order 13650 Improving Chemical Facility

4 Safety and Security to improve the safety and

5 security of chemical facilities and reduce the risk

6 to workers, communities and first responders.

7 The tri-chairs of the Chemical Facility

8 Safety and Security Working Group, who are the

9 Department of Homeland Security, the Department of

10 Labor and EPA established by the Executive Order,

11 submitted a status report to the President titled

12 "Actions to Improve Chemical Facility Safety and

13 Security, a Shared Commitment," and that was released

14 on June 6th, 2014.

15 Recognizing that information, actions and

16 experiences of stakeholders are essential to

17 understanding, managing and mitigating the risk of

18 potential facility hazards, the working group

19 initiated a robust stakeholder outreach effort to

20 assist in identifying successes and best practices.

21 We were able to engage across all levels of

22 government with owners, operators, industry

23 associations, labor organizations, and communities

24 affected by chemical plant disasters.

25 The status report highlights activities
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1 already undertaken to improve chemical facility

2 safety and security and provides a plan for moving

3 forward to continue the initial progress made across

4 the five thematic areas. The action plan includes --

5 the report includes an action plan to further

6 minimize the risk and continue to change the national

7 landscape of the chemical facility safety and

8 security. It lays out 25 priority actions in five

9 thematic areas, including strengthening community

10 planning and preparedness, enhancing federal

11 operational coordination, improving data management,

12 modernizing policies and regulations and

13 incorporating stakeholder feedback and developing

14 best practices. The status report is a mile-stone,

15 not an end point. The most important lesson learned

16 from this effort is that every stakeholder group in

17 the chemical facility community has a role in

18 ensuring safe and secure operations.

19 DHS and our partners are making progress on

20 the action items. One of those items included

21 issuing the Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for

22 the CFATS program. As we work to mature the CFATS

23 regulatory program, DHS is initiating this rulemaking

24 process to help identify how to make the CFATS

25 program more effective in achieving its regulatory
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1 objectives. DHS believes that after seven years of

2 experience implementing the CFATS program, both the

3 Department and the regulated community have gained

4 firsthand insight into how non-prescriptive security

5 regulation can be most effective. This ANPRM

6 provides an opportunity for the department to hear

7 and consider the views of regulated industry and

8 other interested members of the public on their

9 recommendations for a program modification.

10 We invite interested persons to submit

11 written comments, data or views on how the CFATS

12 regulation is currently organized or might be

13 improved. The public is encouraged to comment on all

14 aspects of the program. The rulemaking covers all

15 regulatory and guidance documents, including Appendix

16 A and the list of the COI covered by the program.

17 We've highlighted several topics on which

18 public comment would be particularly helpful,

19 including the general regulatory approach, treatment

20 of nontraditional chemical facilities, clarification

21 of termination, Risk-Based Performance Standards,

22 Appendix A, consideration for small businesses, and

23 alignment with other regulatory programs. Written

24 comments may be submitted online through the Federal

25 eRulemaking Portal or via mail, and we'll have those
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1 addresses up on the screen a little bit later on one

2 of the slides.

3 Input from stakeholders has been critical

4 to the past CFATS efforts and is just as important as

5 we move into the next chapter of the program. I

6 thank you for taking the time to participate with us

7 today, and we look forward to hearing your comments

8 and suggestions on how DHS can mature the CFATS

9 program.

10 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, Ms. Graydon. The

11 remainder of this session today is set aside to hear

12 from you, the stakeholders.

13 First, I'd like to outline the format and

14 ground rules for today's session. This is a

15 listening session with the purpose to hear a diverse

16 set of opinions from across the broad spectrum of

17 stakeholders who have an interest in improving and

18 streamlining the CFATS rule. As such, we are not

19 seeking consensus today on any of the topics.

20 All presenters are asked to keep their

21 comments directly related to the topics described in

22 Part 4 of the ANPRM and listed just a few minutes ago

23 by Ms. Graydon.

24 I will also note that specific suggestions

25 and supporting data are the most helpful comments.
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1 All presenters are also asked to keep their comments

2 limited to five minutes, including any introduction

3 to your remarks. The panel may then ask clarifying

4 questions after your presentation.

5 We hope to have time to hear from everyone

6 who would like to speak today, but if we cannot get

7 to everyone, you are encouraged to provide comments

8 via one of two mechanisms that Ms. Graydon

9 introduced. They are listed in the Federal Register

10 notice, and very quickly they are the Federal

11 eRulemaking Portal at www.regulations.gov and a

12 physical mailing address at 245 Murray Lane, Mail

13 Stop 610, Arlington, Virginia 20528.

14 Also any materials related to your

15 presentations today that you would like to formally

16 submit should be submitted via these options. The

17 deadline to submit comments is October 17, 2014,

18 which is 60 calendar days after publication of the

19 ANPRM in the Federal Register.

20 The remainder of our webinar will include

21 two parts, time permitting. In the first part, I

22 will call upon each person who signed up to present.

23 I will ask the operator to open your line when it is

24 your turn to speak for your allocated five minutes.

25 If time allows, I will then open the floor to anyone
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1 else who would like to speak on the topics also with

2 a five-minute maximum.

3 At this time, I would like to introduce one

4 of our webinar team members, Victoria Frena, to

5 briefly introduce the functions of the webinar screen

6 you are currently seeing.

7 Ms. Frena.

8 MS. FRENA: Good afternoon and good

9 morning. The CFATS ANPRM is posted in the file

10 sharing box in the lower left-hand corner of your

11 screen should you wish to download a copy. Click on

12 the PDF and then press save to my computer. The

13 document will then be saved to your computer. If you

14 need technical assistance throughout the

15 presentations, please e-mail GIA@HQ.DHS.gov.

16 When presenting, there will be a timer

17 timing your presentation on the left-hand side of

18 your screen. We will also pull up and maximize a

19 presentation warning box which will let you know when

20 you have one minute remaining and when your time is

21 finished.

22 If time permits and you would like to speak

23 during the open-mic session, please start a chat with

24 the host with your name -- your first and last name

25 so that we may add you to the list. You can start a
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1 chat with the host by hovering over the right-hand

2 corner of the chat pod and clicking the drop-down.

3 You can then scroll down to chat with, and it will

4 shoot out on the side and you will be able to click

5 chat with host. Thank you.

6 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, Ms. Frena. I

7 will now open the public listening session, and I

8 will first proceed with those who signed up in

9 advance to present.

10 Would Jan Levenhagen please press *1 to

11 signal the operator to open your line.

12 THE OPERATOR: Jan, your line is open.

13 MS. LEVENHAGEN: I will pass on my comments

14 at this time.

15 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, ma'am.

16 Operator, you can close that line.

17 Would J'on Rider please press *1 to

18 indicate the operator to open your line.

19 THE OPERATOR: This is the operator. I am

20 not receiving a *1 signal from J'on.

21 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, ma'am.

22 We are at the end of the list of speakers

23 who indicated in advance that they would like to

24 present. I will now open the floor for additional

25 comments related to the CFATS Advance Notice of
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1 Proposed Rulemaking. If you are interested in making

2 a public comment, please dial *1 now to queue up

3 with the operator. Again, we are going to ask that

4 comments be limited to five minutes. Please hold

5 while we collect the names of speakers. Thank you

6 for your patience.

7 (Pause.)

8 THE OPERATOR: We do have a comment from

9 somebody who did not report their name.

10 Please announce yourself.

11 MS. FINNERTY: The floor is open to the

12 speaker that is -- that indicated interest in

13 speaking. You have five minutes.

14 THE OPERATOR: Perhaps your line is muted.

15 Please check the mute function.

16 MR. FERGUSON: This is Todd Ferguson. Can

17 you hear me?

18 MS. FINNERTY: Yes, sir. Please proceed.

19 MR. FERGUSON: My question is, will the

20 chemical of interest list be revised?

21 MS. GRAYDON: So this is Amy Graydon. As

22 we listed in the Advance Notice of Proposed

23 Rulemaking, we are interested in everybody's

24 suggestions on if there are chemicals to be added or

25 subtracted from Appendix A.
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1 MR. FERGUSON: Thank you.

2 MS. FINNERTY: Sir, do you have public

3 comment to make at this time?

4 MR. FERGUSON: No. Thank you.

5 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, sir.

6 Operator, you can close that line.

7 As a reminder, this is a public listening

8 session, and the line is available to those that are

9 wishing to present public comment for five minutes.

10 You may indicate interest in providing a public

11 comment either by starting a chat with the host on

12 your screen or by selecting *1 on your phone to

13 queue up with the operator. Thank you.

14 (Pause.)

15 THE OPERATOR: We do have a comment from

16 James Bohon.

17 Your line is open.

18 MS. FINNERTY: Please proceed.

19 MR. BOHON: Thank you. This is James

20 Bohon. I'm with California Environmental Protection

21 Agency.

22 In looking through the CFATS Rule, Section

23 G of -- I'm sorry, I guess it's subsection G of --

24 pardon me. It has to do with alignment with other

25 regulatory programs. There are a number of other
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1 regulatory programs that collect information having

2 to do with chemical facilities that also -- that

3 information is also collected by the CFATS program.

4 Under the Federal laws, the CFATS program

5 collects information on chemical facilities and the

6 chemical inventories, chemical names and some

7 characteristics. Under the SARA Title III laws, this

8 information is also collected, and it's collected for

9 somewhat of a different reason. The SARA Title III

10 laws are collected -- allow collection of chemical

11 information specifically for the purpose of

12 disclosure to the general public while CFATS actually

13 collects the information and considers a significant

14 amount of it protected. There is overlap between

15 those two programs.

16 Within California, we have a program that

17 was enacted prior to the EPCRA program that also

18 collects information that is aligned with the EPCRA

19 program and some other additional information.

20 We have some concerns that there's

21 confusion with industry on the information that's

22 being reported. We see it an opportunity for CFATS

23 to better define what information is actually

24 collected by the program and that has need for

25 protection. As an example, CFATS protects the name
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1 of the company and also protects the name of the

2 chemical just as some minor examples. While under

3 the Tier II program under EPCRA, that particular

4 information is releasable both under the Freedom of

5 Information Act and under California Public Records

6 Act (PRA), and both ofthem provide release of that 

7 information to the public.

8 So there are issues in dealing with this.

9 In California we are trying to meet with the industry

10 and also with local government and state government

11 to determine, moving forward, what information can be

12 released and what information should be protected.

13 So, again, I think there's an opportunity

14 in the rule to better define what information is

15 actually being protected. Thank you.

16 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, sir.

17 Ms. Graydon, do you have follow-up

18 questions?

19 MS. GRAYDON: Yeah. So thank you for your

20 comments. I think we would be interested if you

21 wanted to go ahead and submit something in writing if

22 you had the kind of specific data fields that you had

23 in mind that -- you were mentioning a couple. The

24 more specific the data fields you can provide us, the

25 better we can consider what you're saying.
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1 MR. BOHON: I'll be happy to do that.

2 MS. GRAYDON: Great. Thank you.

3 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, sir.

4 Operator, you can close that line. Do we

5 have any additional comments that are ready and

6 available?

7 THE OPERATOR: Yes, we do. We have a

8 comment from Cynthia Hilton.

9 Your line is open.

10 MS. HILTON: Thank you. Thank you, Amy and

11 all.

12 My question has to do with the personnel

13 surety program aspect of CFATS. As you know, there's

14 a proposal that is pending at OMB, and I'm just

15 wondering if the agency is willing or if it's in the

16 plan to kind of leave it there and you are receiving

17 comments on this program because you may have

18 comments that affect that proposal? Can you respond

19 to that at all?

20 MS. GRAYDON: So I would say, you know,

21 this is -- Cynthia, this is primarily a listening

22 session to hear, you know, suggestions that people

23 have --

24 MS. HILTON: Oh, okay. I have a suggestion

25 then, Amy.
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1 MS. GRAYDON: All right.

2 MS. HILTON: My suggestion is that you

3 receive comments through this process which may touch

4 on the personnel surety program before you go to

5 finalize that because what you may hear in the

6 listening session may alter -- you know, cause you to

7 rethink some of the proposals. And so that's my

8 recommendation.

9 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, Ms. Hilton.

10 Any follow-up questions?

11 MS. GRAYDON: No. Not at this time.

12 Thank you, Cynthia.

13 MS. HILTON: You're welcome.

14 MS. FINNERTY: Operator, you may close that

15 line. Are there additional speakers in queue?

16 THE OPERATOR: There are no additional

17 speakers in queue at this time.

18 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you.

19 (Pause.)

20 THE OPERATOR: We do have a speaker in

21 queue at this time. We have David Oberholtzer.

22

23 Your line is open.

24 MR. OBERHOLZER: Hello. Hope you can hear

25 me.
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1 MS. FINNERTY: Yes, sir.

2 MR. OBERHOLTZER: I do appreciate this

3 opportunity, and I'm a little surprised and somewhat

4 hopeful that there will be other folks taking

5 advantage of this during this time period.

6 I would like to just offer some comments,

7 and I expect I'll be submitting some written comments

8 on this. This is related to the comment made by the

9 gentleman from California EPA. We are a small

10 company in California subject to a wide range of

11 regulatory issues, and in particular, I'm interested

12 in seeing how the CFATS regulations are going to deal

13 with the release of information that may be

14 considered to be CVI.

15 There are in California as well as in the

16 entire country mostly environmental regulations and

17 reporting requirements that will be making or

18 continue to make certain types of information

19 available to the public. In particular, we are

20 dealing with the California Water Quality Board storm

21 water regulations, and as part of those regulations,

22 each covered facility is required to submit or

23 prepare a storm water pollution prevention plan which

24 is very comprehensive in terms of facility details,

25 including detailed plot plans, locations on a
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1 facility of any chemical or substance that is

2 considered to be a potential pollutant in storm

3 water, which is almost anything and including several

4 compounds and chemicals that are on Appendix A under

5 the CFATS regulation. And with the new revised

6 permit going into effect in July of 2015, these storm

7 water pollution prevention plans are required to be

8 submitted electronically on our website, maintained

9 by the Water Quality Board and will be available for

10 public review.

11 So the question is, how can we or any

12 covered facility under CFATS in California, which

13 handles the chemical of interest that may also, as

14 the previous caller indicated, overlap into these

15 environmental regulations, how are we to comply with

16 that with the obvious potential for, one,

17 compromising security and, two, revealing what would

18 most likely be considered to be CVI for public

19 consumption?

20 This is a major concern. We will have to

21 be out of compliance with California storm water

22 regulation or out of compliance with the CVI

23 requirements under CFATS. We can't do both.

24 MS. FINNERTY: Ms. Graydon, do you have a

25 follow-up question?
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1 MS. GRAYDON: So do you have -- is there a

2 particular part I guess -- it sounds as though you're

3 referring to some of the CVI requirements. Do you

4 have a specific recommendation on how we could

5 address this within the CVI?

6 MR. OBERHOLZER: Well, you need to, I

7 think, communicate more directly and develop better

8 policy regarding the -- how CVI is handled in

9 conjunction with other regulations. There are

10 statements in the CFATS regulations that are really

11 quite vague, you know, that it's not intended to

12 conflict with other local, state or federal

13 regulations, but, in fact, it does and this conflict

14 is significant.

15 And I think you need to do a better job in

16 providing guidance to covered facilities as to how

17 they should deal with these types of conflicts.

18 Either develop a consistent program with the other

19 regulatory agencies as to what you will and will not

20 allow and what is and is not identified as CVI to

21 provide some guidance for those of us who are

22 seriously struggling with these regulations and

23 compliance issues.

24 Right now it's almost impossible to comply

25 because if we comply with the state storm water
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1 regulations, we will be releasing sensitive security

2 information for public consumption, and there's no

3 way that we can comply with both. And the penalties

4 are obviously significant either way.

5 So I think what you folks should do is go

6 back and take a look at this and spend significant

7 time and effort in coordinating with other regulatory

8 agencies, local, federal and state, to resolve these

9 types of conflicts. Because in about six months, our

10 company, and I am positive that several others, will

11 be in a situation where we can't comply with both

12 even though we're mandated to do so.

13 And I know that during the development of

14 the California storm water regulation, the new one

15 that goes into effect, as I said, in the middle of

16 next year, several comments were provided to the

17 regulatory agency, the state water board, on this

18 issue and they were ignored, completely ignored.

19 So we're not getting any kind of

20 cooperation between the regulatory agencies on

21 serious issues for compliance, and I think you need

22 to get better at that and I think you should take

23 note and pay attention to it.

24 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, sir.

25 Ms. Graydon, do you have follow-up
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1 questions?

2 MS. GRAYDON: No.

3 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you.

4 Operator, you may close the line.

5 Operator, is there another person in queue?

6 THE OPERATOR: There is no other person in

7 queue at this time.

8 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, ma'am.

9 (Pause.)

10 THE OPERATOR: We do have another speaker

11 in queue at this time. I have Brian Gilbaug.

12

13 Your line is open.

14 MR. GILBAUG: Good morning.

15 MS. FINNERTY: Good morning.

16 MR. GILBAUG: So I just have a general

17 comment about the regulation. I've been dealing with

18 it since 2007 when it first came about, and that is

19 that the way that it's constructed, it really

20 hamstrings a lot of us that would like to comply with

21 interacting in a way that we typically do as an

22 industry with our peers.

23 So it's very common for us in the industry

24 that I work in to share information. Not specifics

25 about our process but how do we address securing
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1 let's say a COI. And that's not okay for us to go

2 talk about with our peers in a way that we would

3 traditionally do, and how do we handle these other

4 similar programs, whether it's a facility engineering

5 or a chemical storage or whatever. We traditionally

6 would have gone off to our peers and talked about

7 this. And historically when we've gone to many of

8 these conferences, everybody feels very challenged to

9 have any real conversations of any substance.

10 And so what I think you end up having is 75

11 different people trying to tackle the same exact

12 problem and they're tackling it 75 different ways.

13 It's not very efficient. It's not very helpful for

14 us. And it ends up that when your inspectors are

15 going out and looking at these locations, they have

16 to analyze the 75 different ways of doing it;

17 whereas, if we as an industry all had the same

18 problem, all adopted that this is the best way to

19 deal with it, it would be easier for your inspectors.

20 We would know how to comply a lot easier. We'd have

21 a cookie-cutter format that we could all follow. And

22 you guys would get what you're looking for, which is

23 for it to be secure. And we would have a hell of a

24 lot easier time. Right now we feel like we're

25 shooting in the dark a lot of times, throwing a dart
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1 at a dartboard blindfolded with the lights off. And

2 our neighbor across the street has the same exact

3 problem, and we can't talk to each other about it.

4 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, sir.

5 Ms. Graydon, do you have a follow-up

6 question?

7 MS. GRAYDON: Thank you for your comments.

8 What do you think is the primary item hampering the

9 coordination, and do you have a suggestion for --

10 MR. GILBAUG: It's a lot of fear that we're

11 going to be stepping over boundaries and disclosing

12 CVI information and talking about things that we

13 shouldn't talk about. So everybody just generally is

14 afraid to talk about anything.

15 MS. GRAYDON: So do you have a

16 recommendation for what we could do to clarify the

17 CVI processes and procedures?

18 MR. GILBAUG: Yeah. I think you can go

19 back and look at the way the language is written and

20 that you accommodate for professional organizations

21 to share and disclose information. And even going

22 beyond that, I would encourage people from DHS to be

23 sponsoring these things within the various industries

24 and have open forums where we say, you know, we can

25 talk about this and that person kind of sets the
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1 ground rules for what's okay to talk about and what's

2 not okay to talk about.

3 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, sir.

4 Operator, you may close the line.

5 THE OPERATOR: We have no further speakers

6 in queue at this time.

7 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, ma'am.

8 For those that may have recently joined us,

9 we are in the listening session webinar for the

10 Chemical Facility Anti-Terrorism Standards Advance

11 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking listening session.

12 Our purpose today is to hear a diverse set

13 of opinions from across the broad spectrum of

14 stakeholders who have an interest in improving and

15 streamlining the CFATS rule.

16 If you are interested in providing public

17 comment, there are two ways to indicate your

18 interest. Either start a chat with the host on the

19 left side of your webinar screen or dial *1 to

20 queue up with the operator. Thank you.

21 (Pause.)

22 MS. FINNERTY: Good morning and afternoon,

23 depending on where you are joining us from. We are

24 currently in open session for the CFATS ANPRM

25 listening session webinar. I will keep the floor
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Page 30

1 open for additional public comments should you wish

2 to speak for a maximum of five minutes. We have some

3 speaking instructions on the screen. It's simple.

4 Press *1 if you're interested in providing public

5 comments. I will mute all phones so that we can

6 reduce some background noise, and either I or the

7 operator will announce when additional speakers

8 indicate that they are ready to provide comments.

9 Thank you.

10 (Pause.)

11 MS. FINNERTY: This is the listening

12 session for the Chemical Facility Anti-Terrorism

13 Standards Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking or

14 CFATS ANPRM. The floor is currently open for

15 additional public comments lasting five minutes each.

16 If you are interested in making a public comment,

17 please dial *1, and the operator will connect you

18 through the queue. All microphones will be placed on

19 mute to reduce background noise, and either the

20 operator or myself will announce when additional

21 speakers indicate that they are ready to provide

22 their comments. Thank you.

23 (Pause.)

24 MS. FINNERTY: Hello and thank you for

25 joining us for the listening session for the Chemical
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Page 31

1 Facility Anti-Terrorism Standards Advance Notice of

2 Proposed Rulemaking. This concludes the public

3 listening session. I'd like to turn to Ms. Graydon

4 for closing comments.

5 MS. GRAYDON: I just want to thank

6 everybody who provided comments earlier this

7 afternoon or earlier this morning, depending upon

8 where you are, and I appreciate everybody else who

9 stayed on the line. I would encourage those who were

10 listening but didn't provide comment to us on the

11 line that, you know, there are ways to submit the

12 comments, either electronically or via traditional

13 Postal Service mail. The more specific information

14 you can provide, the more helpful it is to us as we

15 go about, again, kind of looking at the CFATS program

16 and looking at the next chapter.

17 So, again, thank you very much for your

18 participation, and we look forward to your additional

19 comments.

20 MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, Ms. Graydon.

21 On your slide right now you see some

22 additional information. If you would like additional

23 information on the listening sessions, please visit

24 the CFATS Rulemaking website or e-mail

25 CFATS@HQ.DHS.gov.
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1 Please also visit the docket in the Federal

2 Register to view listening session notes and to

3 submit additional comments.

4 We are now adjourned.

5 THE OPERATOR: That concludes today's

6 conference. Thank you for participating. You may

7 disconnect at this time.

8 (Pause.)

9 Ms. FINNERTY: This concludes the listening session.

10 Thank you.

11 THE OPERATOR: This concludes today's

12 conference. Thank you for participating. You may

13 disconnect at this time.

14 (Whereupon, at 2:56 p.m., the

15

16 webinar listening session concluded.)

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24 

25 
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Page 33

1 COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA AT LARGE, to wit:

2

3 I, LAQUICIA THOMAS, Court Reporter and Notary

4 Public in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia at

5 Large, and whose commission expires February 28, 2018,

6 do certify that the foregoing is a true, correct, and

7 full transcript of the proceedings.

8 I further certify that I am neither related to

9 or associated with any counsel or party to the

10 proceedings; nor otherwise interested in the event

11 thereof.

12

13

14

15 

16 ________________________________

17 LaQuicia Thomas

18 Notary Public

19 Commonwealth of Virginia at Large

20 Notary No. 7363169

21

22

23

24

25
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A

ability 3:1

able 2:7 9:21

15:4

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28:20

Accountability

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Act 4:24 5:24

8:19 19:5,6

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actions 6:11 9:12

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add 14:25

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additional 3:25

15:24 18:19

20:5 21:15,16

30:1,7,15,20

31:18,22,22

32:3

address 13:12

24:5 26:25

addresses 12:1

adjourned 32:4

administered 6:5

adopted 27:18

advance 1:2 2:4

3:14 10:21 15:9

15:23,25 16:22

29:10 30:13

31:1

advantage 22:5

affairs 8:24

affect 20:18

afraid 28:14

afternoon 4:9

14:8 29:22 31:7

agencies 24:19

25:8,20

agency 6:6 8:2

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ago 12:22

ahead 19:21

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7:16

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14:9 29:24

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answer 8:4

Anti-Terrorism

1:1 2:4 4:13 5:8

29:10 30:12

31:1

Appendix 11:15

11:22 16:25

23:4

apply 7:20

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31:8

approach 7:13

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Appropriations

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approved 6:21

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areas 10:4,9

Arlington 1:12

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aside 12:11

asked 12:20 13:1

ASP 7:8 8:1

aspect 20:13

aspects 11:14

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Assessments 5:2

5:4

assist 9:20

assistance 14:14

associated 33:9

Association 7:22

associations 7:21

8:6 9:23

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attention 25:23

attractive 4:16

Audio 3:9

August 2:6 9:2

authority 5:9

8:10

authorization

6:22 8:8,11,18

authorize 8:21,22

authorized 4:24

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available 17:8

20:6 22:19 23:9

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back 25:6 28:19

background 2:21

30:6,19

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11:1

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better 18:23

19:14,25 24:7

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beyond 28:22

bill 8:20,25

bit 12:1

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board 22:20 23:9

25:17

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17:20 20:1

boundaries 28:11

box 14:10,19

Branch 4:3

Brian 26:11

brief 3:21

briefly 14:5

broad 12:16

29:13

businesses 11:22

C

C 2:1

calendar 13:18

California 17:20

18:16 19:5,9

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23:12,21 25:14

call 5:13 13:22

caller 23:14

cause 4:18 21:6

cells 4:15

certain 4:19 6:4

7:20 22:18

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CFATS 2:5 3:12

3:21 5:8,11,17

6:14 7:2,10 8:3

8:8,10,13,16,18

8:21 10:22,22

10:24 11:2,11

12:4,8,18 14:9

15:25 17:22

18:3,4,12,22,25

20:13 22:12

23:5,12,23

24:10 29:15,24

30:14 31:15,24

CFATS@HQ....

31:25

CFR 3:12

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change 10:6

chapter 12:5

31:16

characteristics

18:7

chat 14:23 15:1,2

15:3,5 17:11

29:18

check 16:15

chemical 1:1 2:3

4:13,16,17,19

4:25 5:7,17,18

6:12 7:22 9:3,5

9:7,12,24 10:1

10:7,17 11:20

16:20 18:2,5,6

18:6,10 19:2

23:1,13 27:5

29:10 30:12,25

chemicals 5:13

8:16 16:24 23:4

Chief 4:3

circumstances

5:11

clarification

11:20

clarify 28:16

clarifying 13:3

clear 8:14

click 14:11 15:4

clicking 15:2

close 15:16 17:6

20:4 21:14 26:4

29:4

closing 3:23 31:4

Coast 4:10,10

COI 5:13 6:9

11:16 27:1

collect 16:5 18:1

collected 18:3,8,8
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18:10,24

collection 18:10

collects 18:5,13

18:18

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Commencing 1:8

comment 3:2

11:13,18 16:2,8

17:3,9,11,15

20:8 22:8 26:17

29:17 30:16

31:10

comments 3:5,11

3:16 11:11,24

12:7,21,25 13:1

13:7,17 15:13

15:25 16:4

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20:18 21:3 22:6

22:7 25:16 28:7

30:1,5,8,15,22

31:4,6,12,19

32:3

commission 6:1

33:5

Commitment

9:13

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33:1,4,19

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24:7

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10:17 11:3

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6:25 7:17 23:21

23:22 24:23

25:21

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24:24,25 25:3

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27:20

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22:24

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23:17

computer 14:12

14:13

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concerns 18:20

concluded 32:16

concludes 31:2

32:5,9,11

conducted 1:6

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conference 32:6

32:12

conferences 27:8

conflict 24:12,13

conflicts 24:17

25:9

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conjunction 24:9

connect 30:17

consensus 12:19

consider 11:7

19:25

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11:22

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26:19

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23:19 25:2

containing 5:5

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10:3,6 22:18

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27:9

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27:21

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25:20

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25:7

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7:14 10:11 28:9

copy 14:11

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6:13

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D 2:1

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days 13:18

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encourage 28:22

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11:13 13:7

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Energetics 2:12

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entire 22:16

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6:5 17:20 22:16

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essential 9:16

establish 8:10

established 9:10

estimated 6:19

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exact 27:11 28:2

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experience 11:2

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F

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9:12,18 10:1,7

10:17 22:22,24

23:1,12 27:4

29:10 30:12

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February 33:5

federal 3:8 6:4

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16:16,19 17:1,4

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2:12 12:10 15:6

15:15,21 16:11

16:18 17:2,5,18

19:16 20:3 21:9

21:14,18 22:1

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26:3,8,15 28:4

29:3,7,22 30:11

30:24 31:20

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first 2:17 6:21

9:6 12:13 13:21

14:24 15:8

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five 10:4,8 13:2

13:24 16:4,13

17:9 30:2,15

five-minute 14:2

floor 13:25 15:24

16:11 29:25

30:14

folks 22:4 25:5

follow 27:21

follow-up 19:17

21:10 23:25

25:25 28:5

foregoing 33:6

formally 13:15

format 12:13

27:21

forums 28:24

forward 8:13

10:3 12:7 19:11

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Frena 14:4,7,8

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full 33:7

function 2:21

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game-changing

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gather 3:10

general 11:19

18:12 26:16

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generation 4:12

gentleman 22:9

getting 25:19

GIA@HQ.DH...

14:15

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26:16 28:10,18

glad 2:7

go 19:21 21:4

25:5 27:1 28:18

31:15

goes 25:15

going 3:19 4:11

16:3 22:12 23:6

27:15 28:11,21

good 2:2 14:8,8

26:14,15 29:22

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8:24

grateful 8:25

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4:6,7 12:10,23

13:8 16:21,21

19:17,19 20:2

20:20 21:1,11

23:24 24:1

25:25 26:2 28:5

28:7,15 31:3,5

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Great 20:2

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guys 27:22

H

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hampering 28:8

hamstrings 26:20

handle 27:3

handled 24:8

handles 23:13

happy 20:1

hazards 9:18

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2

2,082 6:20

2:56 32:14

2007 3:13 4:24

26:18

2010 6:23

2013 9:2

2014 1:7 2:7 6:14

6:23 8:19,20,25

9:14 13:17

2015 23:6

2018 33:5

20528 13:13

22203 1:12

245 13:12

25 10:8

27 3:12

28 33:5

3

3,000 6:8

3,148 6:15

3,869 6:15

30th 8:25

4

4 12:22

4,600 6:19

4007 8:18

4601 1:11

5

50 6:17

550 4:23 5:1

6

6 3:12

60 13:18

610 13:13

6th 9:14

7

721 6:16

7363169 33:20

75 27:10,12,16

8

8th 6:14,23 8:20

9