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HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON

)R AND PUBLIC WELFARE

13c1 FNITED STATES SENATE

_a EIGHTY-NINTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

ON

HOWE II, OF NORTH CAROLINA, TO BE U.S.

COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION

JANUARY 25, 1966

Printed for the use of the

Committee on Labor and Public Welfare

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

58-52e WASHINGTON: 1966
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COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE

LISTER

PAT McNAMARA, Michigan

WAYNE MORSE, Oregon

RALPH YARBOROUGH, Texas

JOSEPH S. CLARK, Pennsylvania

JENNINGS RANDOLPH, West Virginia

HILL, Alabama, Chairman

JACOB K. JAVITS, New York

WINSTON L. PROUTY, Vermont

PETER H. DOMINICK, Colorado

GEORGE MURPHY, California

PAUL J. FANNIN, Arizona

HARRISON A. WILLIAMS, JR., New Jersey

CLAIBORNE PELL, Rhode Island

EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts

GAYLORD NELSON, Wisconsin

ROBERT F. KENNEDY, New York

STEWART E. MCCLURE, Chief Clerk

JOHN S. FORSYTHE, General Counsel

STEPHEN KURZMAN, Minority Counsel
NOMINATION

TUESDAY, JANUARY 25, 1966

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met at 10:15 a.m. pursuant to call in room 4232,

Senate Office Building, Senator Lister Hill (chairman of the committee)

presiding.

Present: Senators Hill (presiding), Yarborough, Clark, Randolph,

Williams, Pell, and Kennedy of Massachusetts.

Committee staff members present: Stewart E. McClure, chief clerk;

John S. Forsythe, general counsel; Robert Barclay, professional staff

member, Roy H. Millenson, minority clerk, and Stephen Kurzman,

minority counsel.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will kindly come to order.

We do not have a quorum, but I think we can proceed to take the

testimony of our witnesses who have been waiting here for some time.

Dr. Howe, will you come around, please, sir, and have a seat?

Dr. Howe, I want to say that we are very happy to have you here

with us today.

Dr. HOWE. Thank you, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. As you perhaps know, Senator Everett Jordan

was here this morning and he very much wished to speak on your

confirmation, in strong support of your confirmation—in fact, both

of the Senators from North Carolina do—but unfortunately Senator

Jordan had another urgent meeting which required him to leave.

He wants the record to show that he was here, and strongly supports

your nomination; and the same is true for Senator Ervin.

Now, doctor, we will be very happy to have you make any statement you see fit with reference to your qualifications to be Commissioner of Education.

STATEMENT OF HAROLD HOWE II, NOMINEE, TO BE

COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION

Dr. HOWE. Thank you, sir.

I welcome the support of Senator Ervin and Senator Jordan,

particularly since I have lived in North Carolina for only 2 years,

and it is hard to become a "Tarheel" that quickly. However, I

have enjoyed the process and I think that I will begin my statement

by saying that my experience with the Learning Institute of North

Carolina has brought me a perspective that I certainly did not have

before. Working with North Carolina schools and colleges involved

in a totally new educational endeavor has given me a perspective

particularly on some of the problems of education in the South.

1
2 NOMINATION

I might say just briefly that I have worked in public school administration since 1950, and have held various positions as a principal and

a superintendent. I have also had experience in the field of higher

education, as a college and university trustee, and in many other

involvements of that kind. I think, therefore, that I have a sufficiently broad perspective to undertake this responsibility. I certainly

pledge myself to do everything possible to carry out the large load of

legislation the responsibility for which you gentlemen have placed

with the U.S. Office of Education.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, I note that you have been executive director for the Learning Institute of North Carolina, a private, nonprofit

organization for encouraging educational research and innovation.

Will you give us briefly a little picture of just what that institute

is, and it is rather new, is it not?

Dr. HOWE. It is new, and as far as I know, there is nothing else

like it.

The CHAIRMAN. I have heard of it.

Dr. HOWE. It was organized by the major educational institutions

of the State of North Carolina, including Duke University, the

University of North Carolina, the State public school system, and

State board of higher education, and it is established with a private,

nonprofit characteristic as an organization to sponsor educational

innovations in the State. It is empowered to run experimental

schools, as it is doing in the city of Winston-Salem, at an institution

called the North Carolina Advancement School.

We can engage in experimental programs particularly to help youngsters who have not succeeded in education.

The CHAIRMAN. Excuse me a minute.

Each one of you have a brief biographical sketch of the doctor before

you, I believe.

Dr. HOWE. Senator, if I may just make one correction in the sketch

that I think of.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Dr. HOWE. I believe it says that I am a native of Hartford, Conn.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what it says.

Dr. HOWE. I was born in Hartford, Conn., and lived there 6 weeks,

so that I am not sure that I qualify as being a native or not.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did you move to?

Dr. HOWE. I moved to another part of Connecticut, but I have

lived in Ohio, Virginia—I think in Virginia longer than any other

place—New Hampshire, Massachusetts, and now in North Carolina.

The CHAIRMAN. You said you lived in Virginia.

What was your business there?

Dr. HOWE. That was while I was younger. My father was an

educator as well as a. Presbyterian minister, and president of a college

in Virginia.

Senator WILLIAMS. What was your New Hampshire experience?

Dr. HOWE. We have a summer place up there.

Senator WILLIAMS. Where is that?

Dr. HOWE. Squam Lake, in the central part of New Hampshire.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, this is irrelevant to the whole subject

matter, but I happen to have one up there also.

Dr. HOWE. Where is yours?

Senator WILLIAMS. Tamworth.
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Dr. HOWE. This is old hunting ground to me.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator RANDOLPH. Since we are discussing where the Commissioner-to-be has been living, have you ever visited West Virginia?

Dr. HOWE. Yes, sir. I worked with the Weirton Steel Co. one

summer, in Weirton, W. Va., in an open hearth furnace. Tom Millsop

was then head of the National Steel operation in Weirton, so I spent

perhaps more time there than most other places.

Senator RANDOLPH. A rewarding experience.

Dr. HOWE. Indeed, and I have been back to West Virginia to act

as a consultant to the school district in Weirton, and other surrounding areas for some of their rather adventurous new building programs.

Senator RANDOLPH. As you know, Dr. Howe, the Weirton Steel Co.

is spending millions of dollars to abate and control air pollution on its

own, not with Government assistance. Of course, they will welcome

the participation of Government in this kind of program, but it is my

feeling that companies of that type should have a tax credit. I do

not want to ask your opinion on it, but it seems to me when companies

go out and work for water pollution control and air pollution control

there should be some incentive to private industry. This is a matter

for the Senate of the United States to give attention to in the coming

months. This thought is shared by Senator Ribicoff and others as

we join in cosponsorship in legislation in this field.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we ought to have this biographical sketch

appear in full in the record at this point.

(The biographical sketch of Dr. Howe follows:)

BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH OF DR. HAROLD HOWE II

Harold Howe II was appointed U.S. Commissioner of Education by President

Johnson on December 18, 1965, succeeding Francis Keppel.

For the 2 years prior to this appointment, Howe was executive director of the

Learning Institute of North Carolina, a private

'

nonprofit organization for

encouraging educational research and innovation. Much of its work focused on

education problems related to poverty, and on planning new ventures in education.

A native of Hartford, Conn. the new Commissioner received his A.B. degree

from Yale in 1940 and the M.A. in history from Columbia in 1947. He has

studied education at the University of Cincinnati and at Harvard.

Howe has served in a number of teaching and administrative positions in private

and public 

schools, 

beginning in 1940 as a history teacher at Darrow School in

New Lebanon, N.Y. After 5 years in the U.S. Navy, he taught history at

Phillips Academy in Andover, Mass. In 1950, he became principal of the Andover

High School and Junior High School, and later served as principal at Walnut Hills

High School in Cincinnati, and N ewton (Mass.) High School.

Howe was superintendent of schools in Scarsdale, N.Y., from 1960 until he

became executive director of the Learning Institute of North Carolina in 1964.

He is a trustee of Vassar and Yale, vice chairman of the College Entrance Examination Board, and a member of several professional educational societies.

He is married to the former Priscilla Foster Lamb of New York City. They

have a married daughter, another daughter at Wellesley College, and a

13-year-old son.

The CHAIRMAN. I think I should take note of the fact that he began

his career with a number of teaching and administrative positions in

private and public schools, served 5 years in the Navy—and that was

during World War II?

Dr. HOWE. Yes, sir.
4 NOMINATION

The CHAIRMAN. Five years in the Navy, and then he became

principal of Andover High School and Junior High School, and later

served as principal at Walnut Hills High School in Cincinnati, and

the Newton, Mass., High School.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes?

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. I think the nominee is well

respected in the State of Massachusetts for the extraordinary administrative ability and interest in education he possesses. He did serve

with great distinction as principal of Newton High School.

I would say that even though he now comes from North Carolina,

many of us in Massachusetts are deeply cognizant of the contributions

that he has made to our State.

If permissible, Mr. Chairman, I would like to just ask him about

one or two matters.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Dr. Howe, in the last session

of Congress this committee added to the higher education bill a

Teachers Corps program, and for that they provided an authorization

of some $36 million. This was accepted by the House committee,

but then at the final dying hours of the session it failed to be funded

in the appropriations conference. I think you are familiar with it.

I would appreciate it if you could comment on the matter, as the

President referred to it in his state of the Union message. This is

a matter of particular interest to Senator Nelson and myself, and the

President has had a long record of interest in this program. Could

you tell us a bit about what your plans are in this field, what you

think can be accomplished, as far as implementing what has already

been authorized by the Senate is concerned, I would appreciate it.

Dr. HOWE. Senator, first of all I have to say that I am not familiar

with it in great detail, but if I understand the Teachers Corps program correctly, it is an effort to bring both experienced teachers who

have had some special training, as well as trainees in an internship

capacity into schools which need stimulation in order to achieve quality. That is the purpose in a nutshell. It seems to me a most imaginative approach to some of the problems schools have, and certainly

it should result in stimulation for teaching staffs in the schools.

They need this.

Now, to go to the second part of your question, we have done

some very preliminary work in the Office of Education about planning for the funding of the Teachers Corps program. I believe that

there is a supplemental appropriation suggested now, and perhaps

before you, for actively putting it into being. If that is not the

case, I assume it will be before long. I would be (a) in favor of

this; and (b) try to get our shop moving just as rapidly as we could

so that we can start training programs in colleges and universities

next summer. There is certainly going to be a timing problem for

our Office in implementing a major program of this kind as fast as

we have to do it. We will do everything we can to meet it.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. I think, Mr. Chairmen, that

is one of the things which we were interested in. As the hearings

developed last year, and as this committee considered the Teachers

Corps in executive session, our desire was clear that there should

be action over in your shop, in planning and the programing so
NOMINATION 5

when the funds became available you would be able to implement

this program as rapidly as possible.

I think the President has indicated his complete, wholehearted

support of the Teachers Corps to this committee and the Nation,

and the committee in the House has supported it. It really seems a

question of being successful in the supplemental appropriation, which

I do not believe has as yet been submitted, though we are certainly

hopeful that it will be, and speedily so. I would just like to urge the

continued interest and continued effort in your department, so when

this is funded there will be as little time lost as possible.

Dr. HOWE. We have this very much in mind, sir.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, I think we also ought to take note of

the fact that you are at present a trustee of Vassar and a trustee

of Yale University, as well as vice chairman of the College Entrance

Examination Board, as well as being a member of other professional

educational societies.

Is that correct?

Dr. HOWE. Yes. I have, however, resigned as vice president of the

College Entrance Examination Board, because of the duties I am

undertaking here.

The CHAIRMAN. But you were at the time you received this appointment, were you not?

Dr. HOWE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you still on the board of trustees of Vassar

and of Yale?

Dr. HOWE. Yes, I am, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Yarborough.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Where was your father president of a

school? •

Dr. HOWE. He was president of a Negro college in Virginia,

Hampton Institute, in Hampton, Va.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I urge your immediate study of a problem

which I consider urgent. I think one of the most successful educational programs this Congress ever passed was the National Defense

Educational Act of 1958, of which the chairman of this committee

was a principal sponsor. One of the good provisions of the act, one

of the very best, was the National Defense Educational Act Student

Loan Fund, and up until September of last year, 800,000 students had

stayed in college who would not have otherwise been there, and $619

million had been loaned. The President's budget message calls for

the liquidation of that student loan program, and states it will be

reduced by $149 million down to $30 million by 1967, and be replaced

by banker loans, where the students borrow money through an

insured private loan.

I want to point out that this is not the same thing as NDEA. The

bankers, under pressure from their stockholders and boards of directors, are interested primarily in making money. The purpose of the

act of 1958 was primarily educational, and if you shift the student

loans from the Office of Education to the private banks of the country,

you shift the interest in education from educating youth to collecting
6 NOMINATION

loans. You will be destroying one of the greatest education programs

we have ever had.

I am not asking you to express an opinion now, prior to your

confirmation, but I do want to point out to you this threat to the

NDEA. I simply want to point out what is in the works.

Dr. HOWE. Thank you, sir.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Randolph.

Senator RANDOLPH. Dr. Howe, you are familiar with the budget

message, in reference to the President's recommendations as they

affect the funding of legislation passed by the Congress, are you?

Dr. HOWE. In a broad way; yes, sir.

Senator RANDOLPH. You do know that the amount of money for

the higher education programs has been cut rather deeply. I do not

think it is wrong for me to have the record indicate that you are

conscious of the need that you feel to carry forward as quickly as

possible the purposes of the legislation passed. To do that we must

have an adequate fund. Isn't that correct?

Dr. HOWE. Sir, we need funds to do the job in higher education;

yes, sir. I do not know what particular elements of cut in the higher

education program you are referring to.

Senator RANDOLPH. Well, I will not go into the details here, but

it amounts to one-half of what had been authorized, and could be

perhaps a little more.

Senator, are you familiar with the actual cuts?

Senator YARBOROUGH. There are a number of different ones. The

one in the Higher Education Act would be from over $500 million to

under $400 million.

Dr. HOWE. The total authorization for the Office of Education, I

believe, goes up. to $180 million, but there is some reshuffling.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Commissioner, last year we passed a

Higher Education Act that would authorize the spending of over $500

million more a year. Due to the lateness in the session, it passed the

last week, only about $160 million was appropriated, and if that

was fully implemented you would require some $340 million more on

that one program in fiscal year 1966.

Much of new education legislation came late in the session, and as

of this date has not been fully implemented. These new programs

have not been equally treated as far as funding is concerned, since

they passed so late in the session.

Dr. HOWE. In the spirit of your earlier remark, not asking me to

comment on matters with which I am not familiar in detail, I will be

happy to try to send you a statement about this, if it would be helpful

at this point. I have only been around here about a week, so I

could not comment at the moment in detail.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I Will not ask you to do that. I simply

want to point out what we face ahead if we really intend to give the

youth of our country an opportunity for education.

There is a footnote on the loan question which I would like to point

out. Under the insured loan program, the Government pays interest

to the bank while the student is in college, not in excess of 6 percent.

After the student gets out, the interest is borne 50-50 by the Government and the student. But under the NDEA, it was simply 3 percent that the student paid and not the Government. And if the
NOMINATION 7

Government has to finance its deficit by borrowing at an average of

4% percent, that would be 1% percent difference. And after the student

gets out, he pays 3 percent back. So the Government is losing that

1% percent, where they are paying 3 percent and the student pays 3

percent under the bank loan.

This will not save money in the long run. It will cost the Government more money and change the emphasis and there have been

some expressions, Just to be candid, by a few Members of the Senate

that the students were not paying up fast enough and we needed a

business approach.

It is not the purpose of the student loan fund to run a loan shark

business. The purpose is to educate students. And while it is perhaps true that some may have been a little slow in repaying, you

know how student loan funds take some time to begin earning money

after the student finishes college, and this will change the whole

emphasis. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Pell.

Senator PELL. Mr. Chairman and Dr. Howe.

I want to get, if I may, a couple of general views of yours, pursuing

this thought of Senator Yarborough in even more general terms.

You look forward, not in the course of your own incumbency, but

at some point in our lifetime, to when college education will not

involve a loan at all but would be a matter of right, the same way as

high school today, as compared to where it was 20 or 30 years ago.

What is your general thought in that direction?

Dr. HOWE. It seems to me, Senator, there is already some move in

this direction in some States. For example, in California there are

major moves in this direction, particularly with community college

programs. In other States there are similar movements underway.

New York City has, for a long time, maintained free college education through 4 years at city expense for selected people. It seems to

me, just a broad philosophical viewpoint being expressed, that education is about the best investment the society makes, and therefore

your thought is one I would agree with, that there ought to be considerable support for education beyond high school at public expense.

Along this line, I imagine that we will confront in the years ahead,

beyond my incumbency, as you suggest, major national expenditures

to make this kind of thing possible. I would doubt that this could

be done totally by the States themselves.

Senator PELL. I have a bill which goes in this direction and I hope

when it comes to your attention, you will look at it with some

sympathy, at some of the half-steps this bill would take in that direction.

Dr. HOWE. Could I,not commit myself until I have seen the bill?

Senator PELL. Of course.

Now, going to the high school level, one of the problems that we

face, as you know, is to increase the quality of excellence in our high

schools, which is exceedingly spotty, and some of us have a thought

that an optional exam might serve very well in that direction.

The Carnegie Endowment is coming up with some contributions

or recommendations in that regard, and I wonder if you are familiar

at all with this general idea, whether we should have a selective

assessment of our high schools or go ahead and have an optional exam.
8 NOMINATION

Dr. HOWE. I am not really familiar with the optional exam

program.

Now, this proposal—I really have not had full time to examine this

proposal and knowing only a little about it, my reaction is very much

similar to Frank Keppel's. We ought to see whether we can, through

some kind of selective sampling of people in schools, get an accurate

idea of educational quality and go from that. If it turns out that this

is a viable thing to do, I would support it, but we are now in the lower

stages and I can't answer that question until we hear further about it.

Frankly, this optional sampling was totally new to me.

Senator PELL. This is another thought, because you know some

high schools would have no course whatsoever in some parts of

science, trigonometry, foreign languages, and some will have, of

course, home economics, and things of that sort. And if you had an

optional exam, it might bring out the necessary qualifications that

would be needed to bring a school up to standard, to pass, or so that

its students could pass the optional exam. This is just a general

thought, and it might operate without the Federal Government

entering into the matter.

Dr. HOWE. You are referring to something like the New York

State Board of Regents examination?

Senator PELL. Yes. Thank you.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Yarborough.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Chairman, I would like to associate

myself with the remarks of the Senator from Rhode Island, so far as

higher education is concerned. Looking at tuition in junior colleges

in California today, which accounts for about 45 percent of students

in all junior colleges in America, I would like to say that NDEA

introduced in 1958 by our distinguished chairman with many of his

colleagues as cosponsors was originally for scholarships. We lost

the fight on the Senate floor by two or three votes and it was turned

into a loan program. It was not originally the concept of the bill to

be putting the student under a mortgage.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?

Senator WILLIAMS. Perhaps this is parental curiosity, but I wonder

about this college entrance examination. What weight do you think,

Doctor, should be given to that examination in selecting youngsters

for college?

Dr. HOWE. I cannot give you a percentage figure, Senator. I

think some weight should be given to it. It is an imperfect instrument, as are most testing instruments, and when it is misused for

guidance or selection purposes, then it may do more harm than good;

but when it is well used, it helps you compare candidates for college

who have had different educational backgrounds and have come from

different kinds of schools. When used well by competent people it

does help a selection group in an institution that must say no to some,

yet cannot say no to all, on a defensible and good educational basis.

But it should not be the only element in that choice equation.

The school record ought to be a very important part of it.

If I have to judge between a school record and the tests, I will

take the record.

Senator WILLIAMS. Say that again.
NOMINATION 9

Dr. HOWE. If I have to choose between the school record and the

tests, for college administration purposes, I will take the school

record; but if I can add the test to it, I will do a better job.

Senator WILLIAMS. You might be a wise consultant to those of us

who have to choose young men for the service academies. I have

had a practice of using the civil service examination, and I am sure

that this is imperfect as an exclusive method. As a matter of fact,

I interviewed a boy for an hour on Sunday—I don't believe his civil

service record was anywhere near the top and yet easily he could

be seen to be a perfect candidate for the Academy, but we don't

have time.

Could I just get in a little more

The CHAIRMAN. Please proceed.

Senator WILLIAMS. A little more advice from Dr. Howe.

Yesterday morning at exactly this hour, in an elementary school

in New York, a kid in the fourth grade asked me this question:

"If we are fighting the Commies in Vietnam, why do we let Commies teach in our schools?"

That sort of took my breath away.

How would you answer that?

Dr. HOWE. I would ask him where the Commies in the school

were.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, in New Jersey that is, or was, the issue in

the entire gubernatorial campaign--a Communist teaching at Rutgers.

How would you answer that?

Dr. HOWE. Well, it seems to me that if a person is clearly a member

of the Communist Party and in everything that this means, then

probably his dedication to finding the truth, necessary to the academic

process. as we see it in our universities, is diluted, so he should not be

there.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, apparently the right answer to that is,

as I said, it is certainly not up to a Senator or to a Governor to pass

judgment on this, it is up to the academic institution and their

judgment.

Dr. HOWE. That is the tender problem of freedom of the institution.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Would it not be up to the governing board?

Senator WILLIAMS. That is the way we campaigned in New Jersey

for 8 long, loud months.

Senator PELL. Would it not depend on what he taught?

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?

If there are no further questions, we want to thank you very, very

much, Doctor.

Dr. HOWE. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have had you here with us.

(Thereupon, the committee proceeded to the consideration of other

business.)

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