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BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON

3LIC BUILDINGS AND GROUNDS

OF THE

rs i MITTEE ON PUBLIC WORKS

UNITED STATES SENATE

NINETIETH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

ADDITIONAL OFFICE SPACE FOR THE

UNITED STATES SENATE

AUGUST 3, 1967

Printed for the use of the Committee on Public Works

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

82-687 WASHINGTON : 1967
s..

COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC WORKS

JENNINGS RANDOLPH,

STEPHEN M. YOUNG, Ohio

EDMUND S. MUSKIE, Maine

ERNEST GRUENING, Alaska

B. EVERETT JORDAN, North Carolina

DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii

BIRCH BAYH, Indiana

JOSEPH M. MONTOYA, New Mexico

JOSEPH D. TYDINGS, Maryland

WILLIAM B. SPONG, JR., Virginia

West Virginia, Chairman

JOHN SHERMAN COOPER, Kentucky

HIRAM L. FONG, Hawaii

J. CALEB BOGGS, Delaware

GEORGE MURPHY, California

LEN B. JORDAN, Idaho

HOWARD H. BAKER, Ja., Tennessee

RICHARD B. ROYCE, Chief Clerk and Staff Director

BAILEY GUARD, Assistant Chief Clerk (Minority)

RICHARD. E. GERRISH, Minority Clerk

JOSEPH F. VAN VLADRICKEN, LEON G. BILLINGS, J. B. HUYETT, Jr., M. BARRY MEYER,

and RICHARD D. GRUNDY, Professional Staff Members

SUBCOMMITTEE ON PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND GROUNDS

B. EVERETT JORDAN, North Carolina, Chairman

STEPHEN M. YOUNG, Ohio HIRAM L. FONG, Hawaii

DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii J. CALEB BOGGS, Delaware

II
CONTENTS

STATEMENTS

Page

Hon. William B. Spong, Jr., a U.S. Senator from the State of Virginia_ _ _ _ 2

Hon. Ralph W. Yarborough, a U.S. .Senator from the State of Texas 4

Hon. Ernest Gruening, a U.S. Senator from the State of Alaska_ 9

Hon. Frank E. Moss, a U.S. Senator from the State of Utah 10

Samuel H. Mafficoat, administrative assistant to Senator Mark 0. Hatfield,

a U.S. Senator from the State of Oregon 14

Hon. Joseph D. Tydings, a U.S. Senator from the State of Maryland 17

Dr. Leslie R. Kreps, administrative assistant to Hon. Fred R. Harris, a

U.S. Senator from the State of Oklahoma 21

Cammann Newberry, administrative assistant to Hon. Edward W. Brooke,

a U.S. Senator from the State of Massachusetts 24

Hon. Jennings Randolph, a U.S. Senator from the State of West Virginia__ 28

Hon. Russell B. Long, a U.S. Senator from the State of Louisiana 30

Hon. Harry F. Byrd, Jr., a U.S. Senator from the State of Virginia 34

Hon. Claiborne Pell, a U.S. Senator from the State of Rhode Island 35

STATEMENTS AND LETTERS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Hon. Birch Bayh, a U.S. Senator from the State of Indiana 37

Hon. Edmund S. Muskie, a U.S. Senator from the State of Maine 38

Hon. Warren G. Magnuson, a U.S. Senator from the State of Washington 39

Hon. Joseph S. Clark, a U.S. Senator from the State of Pennsylvania 39

Hon. Wright Patman, a Representative in Congress from the State of

Texas 40

Hon. George McGovern, a U.S. Senator from the State of South Dakota_ _ _ 41

Hon. Henry M. Jackson, a U.S. Senator from the State of Washington 41

Hon. John Stennis, a U.S. Senator from the State of Mississippi 41

Hon. Herman E. Talmadge, a U.S. Senator from the State of Georgia 42

Hon. John Sparkman, a U.S. Senator from the State of Alabama 42

Hon. Clifford P. Case, a U.S. Senator from the State of New Jersey 43

Hon. Sam J. Ervin, Jr., a U.S. Senator from the State of North Carolina__ _ _ 43

Hon. Peter H. Dominick, a U.S. Senator from the State of Colorado 44

Hon. Robert P. Griffin, a U.S. Senator from the State of Michigan 45

Hon. Everett McKinley Dirksen, a U.S. Senator from the State of Illinois_ _ 45

SENATE OFFICE SPACE

THURSDAY, AUGUST 3, 1967

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND GROUNDS

OF THE COMMITTEE ON PUI3LIC WORMS,

ashing ton, D.0 .

The subcommittee met at 10:05 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room

4200, New Senate Office Building, Senator B. Everett Jordan (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Senators Jordan, Young, Inouye, Fong, and Boggs.

Also present: Senator Jennings Randolph (chairman of the

committee) and Senators Gruening and Spong.

Also present: Richard B. Royce, chief clerk and staff director, and

J. B. Iluyett, Jr., professional staff member.

Senator JORDAN. I have a short opening statement I wish to read

and put in the record at this point. The Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds of the Committee on Public Works will be in order.

Good mornings, ladies and gentlemen. The purpose of this hearing

is to find out how critical the Senate office space situation is, and to

seek a means of providing additional space to alleviate the unsatisfactory working conditions with which many Members of the Senate are

faced.

The Senate has been concerned with the problems of space almost

from the beginning. When all Senators could no longer be accommodated in the Senate wing of the Capitol, the Senate in 1891 acquired

the old Maltby Building which once stood at the junction of New Jersey Avenue and B Street.

This building was known as the Senate Annex. In 1909 three wings

of the first, Senate Office Building to be constructed were completed

and occupied, and the fourth wing was completed in 1933.

This building is now know as the Old Senate Office Building. By the

middle of the 1940's it became apparent that additional office space for

the Senate must be provided and in 1947 the 80th Congress passed

Public Law 169 which authorized the Architect of the Capitol, under

the direction of the Senate Office Building Commission, to prepare

preliminary plans and estimates for an additional Senate Office

Building.

This building now known as the New Senate Office Building, was

completed and occupied in 1958.

For the last several years, the Committee on Rules and Administration of which I am chairman has been receiving an increasing number of urgent requests from Members of the Senate for additional

office space.

1
2 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

In order to determine how prevalent the shortage of space was, the

Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds of the Committee on

Public Works sent letters to all Members of the Senate and to the

chairmen of Senate committees and subcommittees asking whether

they required additional office space.

As a result of these inquiries, 72 Senators and 24 committees and

subcommittees indicated that they needed additional office space. We

hope that the proceedings this morning will develop some solutions

to this problem, and our first witness is the distinguished Senator

from the neighboring State of Virginia. Senator Spong, we are delighted to have you with us. I happen to know something about your

problem, and in addition to that, you have the advantage of having

your constituents right at you.

Senator SPONG. Yes, indeed.

Senator JORDAN. They come to see you often and long. We are delighted to have you with us this morning.

STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM B. SPONG, JR., A U.S. SENATOR

FROM THE STATE OF VIRGINIA

Senator SPONG. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am very

appreciative of an opportunity to testify briefly before this subcommittee.

Some weeks ago, Senators Tydings and Brewster and Senator Byrd

and myself of Virginia directed a letter to you as chairman of the

Rules Committee, setting forth the particular problem that we encountered, insofar as space is concerned.

Whereas I know that many of the Senators here suffer from a lack

of office space, our problem is occasioned by the abnormal number of

visitors that we have throughout the year.

I am certain that these visits are prompted and encouraged by the

geographic location of our constituencies in relation to the Nation's

Capital, but it is a rare day when we do not have a large delegation

calling upon us.

We do not have space in our offices to meet these people, and very

often, we have to use committee rooms, such as this one.

Just this last week, I had to bring visiting groups 2 days in succession to this committee room. Frequently the committee rooms are being used, and they are not available at the time these visitors come. I

think that this is almost critical, insofar as the Senators from nearby

States are concerned.

As all of you know we have a great many more citizens every year.

We have a great many more visitors every year, and while I am new

here, and cannot compare what took place last year, or the year before,

I can say to you that we feel acutely the lack of space to accommodate

in any way the delegations that are calling upon us, and to confer with

them.

T want to commend you and the subcommittee for undertaking these

studies. I have no positive suggestions to make to you. I hope that in

the course of these hearings, you will find additional space, and I

would like to reiterate the need for space, particularly insofar as the

Maryland and Virginia Senators are concerned.

Thank you very much.
SENATE OFFICE SPACE

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, Senator Spong.

Senator Young, do you have any questions? First I am delighted

you got here. He is a very valuable member of this subcommittee and

the committee as a whole.

Senator YOUNG. Thank you.

Well, frankly I think, if you would look around, as you no doubt

have, you see subcommittees; too many good spaces in the Old Senate

Office Building, for example, are taken up by various and diverse subcommittees. I think it is a tragic matter, and a very unfortunate matter.

For example, I happen to be at 458 Senate Office Building and I have

been there for a good many years.

I like the location. I only have six rooms, I am trying to represent

10,500,000 people and while the problem of a Senator from Ohio is

different, while we are not kept as busy, perhaps, as a Senator from

Virginia or Maryland, with your constituents, coming so easily, the

facts are that now, Cleveland, Ohio, is only a little less than 1 hour by

jet plane from Washington, D.C., so we have our problems, and Senator Hatfield from Oregon, the Senator from Oregon, has his problems

that are different than ours.

For example when constituents travel all the way from Oregon to

see their Senator, he has to put out the red carpet and really give them

treatment, and for many months, Senator Hatfield had to be satisfied

with just one room, and I am familiar with it, because I used that room

for overflow for people, tourist groups and all that, and he had his

entire staff in one big room, no private office at all.

So he was a victim for a long time of the present system, but it

seems to me that if we could only have an additional couple of offices

in the same building, even if they were not on the same floor; I need

acutely two more offices, and I would prefer them, of course, adjacent

to my present offices, but I would be very happy if they would be in

the same building, and I imagine a couple of offices in the basement of

the same building would help you a great deal.

Senator SPONG. Yes

'

it would.

Senator YOUNG. The situation is very bad, as our chairman knows,

and I think he is rendering a great service in calling a meeting of this

subcommittee so we may hear from various Senators, and out of this,

it may be that a strong demand should be made that some of these

subcommittees double up, and give up the present offices that are only

occupied part time for Senators like you, who really have problems.

You have said here, you go out and visit with your constituents,

range all over your State, so happy to meet up with your citizens when

you are campaigning for their votes, and you will start campaigning

for their votes about at least a year ahead of election time, and you

don't want to have to hurry them out.

You want to give them every accommodation, and certainly this subcommittee should try to help every Senator have adequate space, and

give to those who need such space, and take from those who don't need

it, but who sort of usurp space for subcommittees in our building.

I will do all I can to help.

Senator SPONG. Thank you, Senator Young.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you, sir. Senator Boggs, I am glad that you

got to be with us this morning, and I would be glad to hear from you,

sir, the remarks you wish to make.
4 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

Senator BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I apologize to you and the subcommittee, and our distinguished witness, Senator Spong, this morning for being a little late. I was on the

telephone, Senator.

I certainly am interested too in helping to iron out the space problem

here, and I want to do everything I can, I assure you to see that each.

Senator has adequate space to meet his—carry on his public responsibilities as a Senator.

Senator SPONG. Thank you, and thank you for allowing me to

testify, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. Senator Spong, you know they think the chairman

of the Committee on Rules and Administration must have a lot of

rooms in his pocket, and that is the place to come, of course.

We do have occasional space under the Rules Committee. I remember very well when you and Senator Byrd and Senator Tydings and

another Senator 

Senator SPONG. Senator Brewster.

Senator JORDAN. Yes, came to this office and there was no question

in my mind about your needing the space. It just was not there to

be had.

Senator SPONG. Yes, indeed.

Senator JORDAN. And that is what we are trying to do now, to find

an answer to your problem, as well as all the other Senators' problems.

Senator SPONG. Thank you very much.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you, sir, and we are delighted to have you

with us.

Senator SPONG. Thank you sir.

Senator JORDAN. Senator 13-arborough—I am taking these witnesses,

gentlemen, as they applied and are on this list here—Senator Yarborough, we are delighted to have you with us this morning.

You represent one of the real bicr

''

States, and I know your space

problem is critical. I have talked to you numerous times about it.

STATEMENT OF HON. RALPH W. YARBOROUGH, A U.S. SENATOR

FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS

Senator YARBOROITGH. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have talked

to the chairman about this for years, and I want to congratulate you

and the members of your committee with all the great demands upon

your time here in August, for allocating time for this hearing.

I think it is a recognition by you and the members of this committee that this is a matter of great importance to the Senate, in its efficient working. The need for more office space for the Senate is completely apparent and every day the efficiency of my office and my staff

is hampered by our small quarters.

Last year, I introduced a bill, S. 3601 of the 89th Congress to

authorize the extension and completion of a new Senate Office Building. If I may, I ask permission to have this bill inserted at this point

in the hearings, and not take time to read it.

Senator JORDAN. So ordered.
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 5

(S. 3601, 89th Congress, is as follows:)

[s. 3601, 89th Cong., second sess.]

A BILL To provide for the completion of the Senate Office Building authorized by the

Act of June 25, 1948 (62 Stat. 1029)

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States

of America in Congress assembled, That (a) for the purpose of providing additional working accommodations for Members and committees of the United

States Senate, the Senate Office Building Commission, after consultation with

a committee designated by the American Institute of Architects, is authorized

to complete the construction of the Senate Office Building authorized by the

Act of June 25, 1948 (62 Stat. 1029), by enlarging the east wing of such building

to a height to correspond with the other wings thereof, and to prepare all necessary designs, plans, and specifications in connection therewith.

(b) In carrying out its duty under this Act, the Senate Office Building Commission is authorized (1) to provide for such equipment, such connections with

Capitol Power Plant and other utilities, such structural and other changes in

the existing Senator Office Building authorized to be enlarged by this Act and

In the subway and tunnel systems, as may be necessary; and (2) to do such

landscaping as may be necessary by reason of the construction authorized by

this Act.

SEC. 2. The Senate Office Building Commission is authorized to enter into contracts and to make such other expenditures as may be necessary for materials,

supplies, equipment, accessories, advertising, travel, personnel and other services,

and any other items required for the proper completion of the project, and to

obligate in full the total amount herein authorized, prior to the actual appropriation thereof.

SEC. 3. Upon completion of the project authorized by this Act, the building

and the grounds and sidewalks surrounding the same shall be subject to the

provisions of the Act of June 8, 1942 (40 U.S.C. 174 (c) and (d) ), and the Act

of July 31, 1946 (60 Stat. 718), in the same manner and to the same extent as the

existing Senate Office Buildings and the grounds and sidewalks surrounding the

same.

SEC. 4. There is hereby authorized such sums as may be necessary to carry

out the construction authorized by this Act, including the preparation of all

necessary designs, plans, and specifications.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I have appealed to the committee and I have

introduced bills, to try to get us some relief for this situation. .I introduced the bill at the time the proposed extension of the west front of

the Capitol was being discussed because I felt then, and I still feel

that we have grossly distorted our true needs and priorities if we do

not provide working space here before considering adding a largely

ceremonial space in the Capitol.

In my office the employees are packed four, five, and six to a room.

I am only the only person in my office that enjoys a private office and

I feel guilty about it.. I have to talk to people and thus require a private room. Everybody else's desk to desk reminds me of the maneuver

tents we had in Louisiana in an infantry division for the staff in

World War II, with eight men in one little blackout tent.

My office handles a mail volume of well over 100,000 pieces of incoming mail a year and some days it gets up to over a thousand pieces

of mail a day.

My permanent staff of about 20 is a bare minimum to attempt to

cope with this volume of mail if they are to do anything else, for the

10;700,000 people of my State, yet they must all work in the crowded

confines of my six room suite, the largest to which I am advised I am

entitled.

No person on my staff has any privacy or quiet at all, except for a

tiny cubicle for the administrative assistant, who used a little partition built there for him to try to allow him to do his work. When the

82-687-67---2
6 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

typewriters get going, phone conversations become very difficult, those

phoning talk louder and louder, and typists lose track of their copy.

All of this is an impediment to the efficiency of an office and the same

situation exists on at least one of the committees on which I serve.

They do not all have vast rooms, if they do have excess rooms. I

serve on one commitee, Labor and Public Welfare, where their staff

is about as badly cramped as my own staff.

I want to digress here a moment, Mr. Chairman. I just heard the

preceding comment from my good friend from Ohio on this subcommittee down the hall, conceding that maybe the Senators from Virginia

or Maryland had more callers to their offices than we do.

I might keep books with them on that. I doubt it. One day last

spring, before Senator Hatfield was occupying 457, which the Senator

from Ohio and I, whose suites adjoin each other on the fourth floor

of the Old Senate Office Building, use for delegations from our home

State when it is not being used by a committee or by a Senator for his

entire staff, I had about 250 people up here on one project. A Senator

from another State saw them and said, "My goodness, Ralph, what

is going on? Is this a convention?" I said, "No, there is a delegation

on such and such a matter," "Does this happen often?" "Yes, often

we have two groups that will equal 250 come at one time from my

state."

This was in May. He said "I have not had that many people come

here from my State from January 1 to now." 

He lived in a State way out West someplace, that has probably less

than half a million, or maybe not over 5 or 600,000 people. But when

-you have over 10/12million people or 10,700,000 according to the recent

Census Bureau and are the fourth most populous State it is almost an

impossibility to render any efficient service here.

Private business has little hesitancy about expanding when the

growth ,of business and the need for efficiency justifies it, if the buildings going up in downtown Washington and the suburbs are any

indication.

I don't think Congress should feel apologetic about housing its

working staff in quarters large enough to promote efficiency.

Of course I am not advocating building any marble museums or even

pentagons, but I think the 50-percent increase in the overall working

office space for the Senate would be completely justified and needed.

I could demonstrate an even greater need and this in relation to my

own office situation. I think any private business handling the type

and volume of work that is done here would insist on having at

least private rooms for their staff members, a separate room for the

noisy equipment like mimeographs and folding machines, a space large

enough to hold a conference of five or six persons in a room, and a

waiting room large enough to accomodate visitors without requiring

them to stand in the hall.

This week I have been to two ribbon cutting affairs, opening new

offices. One was a national political headquarters office that makes our

office look like we are in some sort of ghetto up here.

I am not talking about the marble exterior, but I am talking about

the working conditions. Monday afternoon I was out at the industrial

plant in, North Dallas County, where the Ford Motor Co. was opening

a new plant, and went through the suite of offices they have for the
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 7

junior staff members. They would not put up with such ineffciency as

was have here in the Senate. They could not, if they wanted to remain

a competitive American business. There are just a hundred of us, but

we represent 200 million I •.pie and have less office space than either

of those, one a political oh ce and one a great modern American industrial concern. I wish every Senator could have walked through both

of them. No one else but the Senate would put up with this situation,

and so Mr. Chairman, I offer the text of this bill that I introduced

last July, for the consideration of this committee as a draft.

I have no pride of authorship in it. I do not have expertise the members of this subcommittee have. This is just something to start with.,

as a draft. I think all of us ought to take a hand in assuming responsibility for completing the new Senate Office Building or any other

feasible plan that will substantially increase our effective working

space.

Now this year on the Appropriations Committee I tried to get certain

other additional moneys to help us with our office problems and

expenses, and some members said Oh, this is a time of great deficit, we

will be criticized.

I will introduce the bill. I am willing to take the criticism. I promise

the people I will be as efficient as I can, but we can't be efficient under

the working conditions we have. I thank this committee, for taking

its time in one of the busiest months in the year for the Senate, to hear

this matter, because I don't think the Senate has any more important

business before it than to make our own services to our people efficient.

Thank you very much.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, and all your information

will be included in the record. We are delighted to have it.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Thank you, Senator.

Senator JORDAN. Senator Young, do you have questions ?

Senator Yo-crNG. Thank you for appearing, and may I say that my

next door neighbor, Senator Yarborough, has far more visitors than

I have, and like him, I am the only one in my six rooms who has a

private office.

There are at least four in every other office in my suite. And also, I

feel that he certainly requires three additional offices somewhere,

because bear in mind that the visitors to Senator Yarborough come

a long ways.

They come from the State of Texas, and it only takes an hour for a

visitor from Ohio to get to me, but it takes longer from Texas, and

therefore

'

naturally, a Senator from that State feels that he should

do more for them and we did use that one office, that big assembly

room in common for our delegations and of course when Senator Hatfield had that for some months, that handicapped us further.

I am glad you testified, Senator Yarborough, and I go along with

you and I know your need is acute.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Thank you, Senator Young. I think that you

have touched on a point here that is of great importance and is one

that I had not really thought of before.

That is if your State is close by, and the people can get here easily,

quickly, and cheaply, and Ohio is not far away, and Virginia and

Maryland are close by then when they come to Washington, they don't

feel they have to go by the office of their Senators every time they

come to Washington.
8 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

When people come from my State, it is pretty expensive.

I am talking about the big delegations that come on projects as well

the tourists.

Delegations come on farm bills, they come an REA projects, they

come on different things. Nearly all of those big groups come before

the summer. In the summer, there is a great mass, but they come more

in family groups or small groups as tourists. When they come that

distance, a good many, if they have as much as a day or two, try to

go by and see the Congressman from their district, and at least one of

the Senators from their State, and many go to both offices.

Senator Tower and I are of different political parties but many of

the people who come feel that they ought to go see both their Senators

while they are here, because they have come a long way and it may

be their one trip in a lifetime. Business groups come about bills to be

voted on and they nearly all go to see both Senators from a State, regardless of the fact that there may be two different political parties.

It puts a heavier burden on those Senators from States farther away

than on those whose constituents are close by, where driving to Washington is a few hours' matter, and nothing unusual.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. Senator Gruelling, did you have anything that

you would like to ask the Senator?

Senator GRUENING. Yes, I don't want to ask Senator Yarborough

except I find myself in complete agreement with whatever he said.

I think we all need space desperately. I have a statement to that effect.

Senator JORDAN. All right.

Senator Boggs?

Senator BOGGS. I find myself in agreement with Senator Yarborough's statement also, and I recognize the need, Senator, and I think it is well that we are looking at it, and we are starting to move on meeting this problem.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Yes, the Senator represents a State where there are many business establishments and knows something about the business community, what they require for efficiency.

Senator BOGC4S. I have a lot of people small as our State may be, and close by as it is, you would be surprised that over 2,500 people a year sign our guest book in our office, and come down here.

And we have delegations down on farm problems, dairy problems,

other problems and just yesterday I could not seat everybody in our office and many people had to stand up.

We brought every chair from the whole suite into my private office,

and which is the only office that I use myself, and the rest of it, while

not fully crowded as your office is, and other larger State offices, but it is crowded and I am many times have to go if I can find a committee

room available, to meet delegations or if I can get it, it is not already

reserved, the auditorium and we have had to do that on several occasions, and may times I am too late to get it; it is already scheduled for

somebody, so I have had a meeting with groups in my office right out

in the corridor.

That is the best I could do.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I think that is a little headache for our chairman, with a hundred Senators trying to get the few available rooms

around here.
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 9

Senator JORDAN. I need one extra room to hear the Senators tell me

what they want.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, Senator Yarborough. We

appreciate your testimony here today.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. Senator Moss, we are delighted to have you with

us. Before you testify, Senator Gruening, a member of this committee,

has a statement to put in the record, and he wanted to make just a

statement to go along with it.

STATEMENT OF HON. ERNEST GRUENING, A U.S. SENATOR FROM

THE STATE OF ALASKA

Senator GRUENING. I just want to commend the chairman and the

members of the subcommittee for bringing up this question. I think

there their interest demonstrates how fully aware they are, and I

think the rest of our colleagues are that the space situation has become

really desperate, and I think it is so in practically every office.

I know that in my office the people are crowded in a way that really

diminishes their efficiency very greatly. In many cases the space is not

only inadequate, but it is virtually nonexistent, and obviously, the functions of government are expanding and matters are getting more

complex all the time, and it is really essential that we meet this problem as rapidly and effectively as possible.

I am hopeful that before long, the rest of this New Senate Office Building will be completed, but even if that were done with all possible speed, it would not meet the immediate situation.

I think we ought to take both the immediate view and the longrange view, and do whatever seems necessary in the judgment of the committee to provide adequate space to our 100 Senators.

Thank you.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, and Senator Gruening,

your complete statement will be at the conclusion of your remarks at this point in the record.

Senator GRUENING. Thank you.

(The prepared statement of Senator Gruening is as follows:)

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNEST GRITENING OF ALASKA

Mr. Chairman, let me commend and thank the Chairman and members of the Senate Public Works Subcommittee on Buildings and Grounds for holding this hearing to seek a solution to the critical office space situation confronting the Senators and the Committees and Subcommittees of the Senate. And let me in- vite anyone who questions the desirability of expanding Senate office space to visit my office and/or the quarters occupied by the Government Operations Sub- committee on Foreign Aid Expenditures which, with the Government Operations Subcommittee on Executive Reorganization, shares the single room formerly oc- cupied by the Government Operations Subcommittee headed by our former colleague, the Vice President.

At best the space is crowded. Sometimes it is non-existent. Staff members and interns compete for chairs and typewriters in my office. And I do not have an inordinately large number of either staff or interns.

Constituents who seek to discuss problems with members of my staff must accept the probability of sharing the problems with many others. When I ask members of the executive branch to meet with me to tell me about a new program or when I call them up to explain why some action has not been taken, I

always hope they will "fit" in my office.
10 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

1

As you know, we do not have the commodious quarters of the executive

branch. Conference rooms are at a premium.

The Senate built the first part of the Old Senate Office Building in 1909. That

was the year Admiral Robert E. Peary reached the North Pole. Alaska was a

far-off territory, as were Arizona, New Mexico, and Hawaii.

When the old building was completed in 1933, Arizona and New Mexico were

states. That was the year Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany. Prohibition was repealed and the United States recognized the Soviet Union as the government of Russia.

The Senate made do with the quarters it had until the New Senate Office

Building was completed and occupied in 1959. Alaska was now a state and

Hawaii would become the 50th state that year. As a nation, we had fought and

won World War II, rebuilt a devastated Europe and Japan, watched the Soviet

Union launch Sputnik I and sent our own Explorer I into orbit. Over the years

the work of a Senator has become increasingly complex.

We have outgrown our present quarters in less than 10 years.

Like the mushrooming population, the Senate is suffocating in inadequate,

cramped quarters, even as it attempts to legislate in a nuclear age with horse

and buggy tools.

We have authorized and appropriated funds for modern quarters in the

Executive and Judicial branches of government even as we have improperly

cared for our own staffs.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation will have new quarters and the cost will

probably be in the neighborhood of $50 million. I do not object to the proper

housing of the Bureau's staff and facilities. I simply point out that we of the

Senate cannot give our constituents the service they deserve in the existing

quarters which house us and our staffs.

Unfortunately, we cannot build an instant addition to the New Senate Office

Building, but we can authorize and appropriate money during this fiscal year

with which to buy land and to prepare design. Perhaps within the next five years

an addition to these quarters will be completed but, until then, I hope we can

acquire some temporary quarters for our staff members who really work under

deplorable conditions.

I hope that in the new addition we might find room for staff gymnasium. Surely

we can provide some compensations for long hours and inadequate salaries.

Let 1968 be remembered as the year the Senate took steps to serve constituents

In a more modern manner. We don't need more restrooms. We do need more room

for desks, chairs, and, when necessary, the privacy for staff to work efficiently

and constituents to be served properly.

Senator JORDAN. Senator Moss, we are delighted to have you with

us, I know a lot about your problems, too. And you know I am sympathetic but that did not provide more room for you.

STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK E. MOSS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE

STATE OF UTAH

Senator Moss. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sure the chairman.

acknowledges that I have come to him a number of times with my problem, and I am most happy that the chairman and this committee have

scheduled hearings to put on the record what we discuss so often in the

offices and in the corridors and elsewhere as we struggle with the problem that is common to all of the Senators here.

And I have nothing but sympathy for the chairman in his job of

trying to explain to Senators that there just is not any more space

available, when each is so desperate to get more space.

I have a very brief statement that more or less adds my horror story

to the others which this committee will be hearing on space requirements.

I have sat here listening to the colloquies back and forth, and have

thought how applicable all of those comments were to my problem. So I
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 11

will read my statement briefly and be very glad of course to answer any

questions.

I appreciate the opportunity to be here, Mr. Chairman, and to

comment on the critical shortage of office space. The situation confronting most Senators and committees is critical and a solution must

be found without further delay.

As the population of our States increases so do our workloads.

Larger staffs are required which results in further crowding of available space. Staff members in some cases are crowded in like sardines.

Space is so restricted it is necessary to put four or five people in

one room. Those who are doing creative work must try to concentrate

against the noise of several typewriters the constant ringing of telephones and telephone conversations, and the arrival of visitors.

I might say Senator Yarborough spoke about having adequate

reception rooms, and that then recalls to my mind that I first of all

had to divide one of my rooms in two for reception room, because I

have to have two people in the back part working, and in front of the

division, which is just made with bookcases, sit two stenographers

who are typing all of the time, and in the rest of the space is the

reception room. Why there is not enough space left there for more

than about five people to crowd in, if they all stand up, and no place

for them to sit down.

If they have an appointment and must wait 10 minutes or something

to get in, there is no place for them to sit down and I think that is

ridiculous.

Senator Yarborough was talking about the fact that business offices

wouldn't put up with such a thing. I come back every time I go down

to the executive department downtown, and have a conference with

some Cabinet or sub Cabinet or subsubsub-Cabinet member, come back

with the greatest of envy in my heart because I find that he will not

only have a private office, but usually he will have a secretary sitting

outside in a private office, and downt he hall will be three or four more

assistants, each with a private office, as compared with up here I

haven't any room that has fewer than four people sitting in it, and

these are divided up by bookcases and all this makshift business to

try to get a little more privacy in the corners of the office.

In one office, which is not even contiguous with my other rooms,

we have five desks and most of our office machines. These people must

work and talk against the noise of the mimeograph, the constant hum

of the Xerox machine, and the whir of other machinery.

We have long since sent most of our files for past sessions of

Congress to storage downtown. Frequently, we have to send down

for the file on a bill, a departmental case, or some other matter. It

takes from 1 to 3 days to get that file, and sometimes the file arrives

too late to be of assistance in the matter at hand.

We find ourselves, therefore, constantly sending to committees or

the Senate Library for copies of bills and reports which we have in

our own files, but cannot get at.

This is typical of the space situation in our offices. To a large extent,

these conditions exist in our committees. In the Old Senate Office

Building, partitions have been placed in the end of corridors to provide room for committee staff members.
12 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

Under these circumstances, efficiency is naturally affected. I commend this committee for doing what they can with available office

space. There simply isn't enough to go around. The Senate must obtain more if we are effectively and efficiently to perform our responsibilities. I hope that this committee will recommend construction of

additional office space.

Thank you.

Senator JORDAN. I do say this without hesitation. It is a pleasure

to talk to every one of the Senators, and I don't believe there is a

Senator in the Senate who hasn't discussed at one time or another his

space needs. I always enjoy a conversation with them, but it is always

a great disappointment I just don't have something to give them.

Some of them, I think, think of taking this building as rubber and

just pushing it out, but it won't push.

Senator Young, do you have any questions?

Senator Thum,. I have no questions.

I agree with everything that Senator Moss had to say. Of course,

people who come to see him come a long way, and they are entitled

to be well received and have ample space.

Senator JORDAN. Senator Inouye, we are glad you got here this

morning.

Senator INou yt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. Do you have any questions?

Senator INou xt. I just regret that I wasn't here to listen to the

complete testimony of my dear friend, Senator Moss. But whatever

I have heard, I concur with him. Even a small State like Hawaii has

a few problems.

In my case, I find it extremely difficult to find space downstairs for

my equipment, which is very important in our operations, and I think

we have enough space for just two typewriters, and to find just another

20 square feet more, it would be just delightful for the State of Hawaii.

Senator JORDAN. I see. He looked right at me when he said that.

[Laughter.]

Thank you.

Senator Boggs?

Senator BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I haven't any more questions.

I want to thank Senator Moss for his statement, too. I sympathize

with you and I recognize the need for more space, and want to do

what I can to help meet that problem, Senator.

Senator Moss. Well, I would underline what Senator Yarborough

stressed so much, is that it is really very degrading on the efficiency

of the people you do have in the office. Now, we pay our staff people

pretty reasonable salaries, I think, and we get good people there, and

then you stick them in an office with a bunch of typewriters and four

or five other people, and expect them to do creative work, to be able to

research, and to write, and analyze legislation, and things like this,

that require a degree of concentration, and so we degrade their efficiency, I think, 50 percent or more, just trying to get along under those

conditions.

Rather than consider raising salaries and getting more efficient

people, we ought to turn our attention for a little while to getting a

reasonable place for them to work. That is what it amounts to; as is

stressed by all whom I have heard here, the only person that possibly
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 13

can have a private office is the Senator, himself, and that has to be private, because of conferences that he holds. There isn't any possibility

of anybody else having a private office, or even a semiprivate office.

Senator BOGGS. You know, it is a matter of constant amazement to me

how well and how wonderful the staff people here, both committees and

in Senators' offices, do with the space they have available. I go into some

of my colleagues' offices, and look around, and I just think those people

are wonderful, working under those conditions. They do a great job.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, Senator Moss.

Senator Moss. Thank you.

Senator JORDAN. One of the things that a great many people don't

know and don't realize, and they have no way of knowing it, is the

tremendous volume of mail that comes into every Senator's office. The

television programs that are on the air constantly, and the newspapers

which are disseminated over the whole United States, and the radio,

keep the public aware of everything going on in Washington. There

is no question about it. And there are hundreds and hundreds of pieces

of legislation introduced yearly, and a great many people are interested

in that legislation, and they write to the Senators, and they come to see

the Senators, and that has grown constantly, ever since I have been

here.

have been here 9 years and people who have been here much much

longer will tell you the same thing, that their workloads build up every

year.

Senator Boggs and I just got through with a bill yesterday—I hope

we got through with it. It is one of mine, that is indelibly printed on

my mind, and that bill has been worked on for nearly 2 years. We have

had dozens and dozens of delegations to see us, representing a great

many orgaizations, both pro and con, and that one bill alone has developed literally thousands of letters in my office.

Senator Bows. From throughout the United States.

Senator JORDAN. From all over the United States. From California

to Florida, and the New England States, and everywhere.

Well, it is perfectly right and proper that they should make themselves known, because they are the people that this legislation will

affect, and we want to hear what they have to tell us, because any time

you pass legislation that affects any person, he ought to be considered

and we should try to work out something that doesn't hurt him.

' We are here to try to help people, and that is the reason that this

workload has gradually gone up. I don't come to my office on Sunday,

because I have thought I ought to take off and go to church on Sunday and get forgiveness for what I did all during the week, but I come

every Saturday, and have to, and a great part of my staff has to come

on Saturday, to anything like catch up with the correspondence. I

quite often find this the ease, and I am sure every Senator sitting on

this platform finds the same thing, that Saturday, and not always

Saturday, is about the only day you can get together with members

of your own staff and 'discuss legislation, and try to get out something

that you had to do some research in. Those are the things that have oontributed to the need for the vastly increased number of employees that

each Senator has, and a place to put them, and the equipment that is

in our office that has to be used. It has been well pointed out here, and

I don't see how they do as well as they do, with three or four type82-687-f7 3
14 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

writers in the room, running almost constantly. But they do a marvelous job, and that is a great tribute to the employees of the Senate, and I am sure the same thing exists in the House.

Mr. Mallicoat is here representing Senator Hatfield.

We would be glad to hear from you. I believe you do have a statement.

Have a seat, sir.

I am acutely aware of your problem down there, sir. I have thought

about you and your Senator many times at night, really, because I

knew what you had to start with. This is the No. 100 suite that you

are in, and No. 100 is what's left after everybody gets through taking.

It is right around the corner from me, and I know exactly where it is.

I have walked up and down that a suite time and time again, and it is

as inadequate as any space could possibly be.

Senator Eastland was good enough to release one of the rooms from his subcommittee across the hall that greatly improved your situation,

but that doesn't cure it by any means.

Senator Hatfield, I might add, as a man of national reputation. He has a great many people who come to see him, he is a former Gover- nor—the Senate has a lot of former Governors, and they have a lot of people come to see them from their States, that they can depend on. I

had hoped that he would be here, but I am glad you. could be here. I

know his problem, and that is one thing that has prompted me to call this meeting as chairman of this subcommittee, to help alleviate that

very condition. Incidentally, his does happen to be the worst.

STATEMENT OF SAMUEL H. MALLTCOAT, ADMINISTRAnvi.

ASSISTANT TO SENATOR MARK 0. HATFIELD

Mr. MALmcoAT. Well, Mr. Chairman, being 100th in a group of

100_, we must just try harder.

Senator Hatfield asked me to convey to you his regrets at being unable to be present here this morning and, also, his appreciation for

your holding this hearing concerning this very critical problem.

I noted that Senator Young and Senator Yarborough had commented upon our situation earlier in this hearing.

Our situation has been somewhat relieved by moving into the space that we now have, but it is still critical.

I can't add anything to what the Senators that have preceded me have stated about their problems. We know that it is critical for all of them.

I do have a statement that I would like to submit for the record.

Senator JORDAN. Your statement will be included in its entirety in the record, immediately following your remarks.

Mr. MALLICOAT. I thank you very much.

(The statement referred to follows:)

PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR MARK 0. HATFIELD

The first assumption that must be made before dealing with the profblem of in- sufficient office space is that each 'Senate office is a complete producing entity not unlike a small business. Its purpose is to facilitate (representation to the con- stituency, to provide for an informed representative through research, and to disseminate the representative's views among the constituency. All of these goals must be produced by the office staff within a certain wage and space limitation.
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 15

Once the analogy between the small business office and the Congressional

office is held valid, one can tap the vast resources written on office efficiency.

Many of the studies have dealt with the problems of space efficiency which particularly apply to the Senate office.

Our own office consists of five adjoining small administrative offices and one

large mailing, filing and research office. We need not consider the Senator's office

or the adjoining personal staff office since they seem to be about adequate for the

amount and type of work that is conducted there.

The room adjoining the personal staff office contains the receptionist and an

administrative secretary serving the administrative and legislative assistants.

The room contains 192 square feet of usable space. Applying business efficiency

standards of 75 square feet per secretary set by the Systems and Procedures

Journal, 213 square feet would seem more than adequate. However, one must

take into account that all the visitors must enter through this office. Due to the

lack of space, it is impossible to place more than three chairs in the reception

room for guests while there are often more than three people in the reception

room itself. This situation can only cause the room to resemble the lobby of a

crowded Doctor's office rather than the office of a United States Senator.

Another problem arises when one considers the secretary to the administrative and legislative assistants. She is given the job of composing much of the

correspondence that falls to the two assistants. Due to the commotion in the

outer office, it is impossible for her to maintain concentration on a job where

concentration is primarily needed.

The office of the LA and the AA is next to the receptionist room. Generally,

a research assistant sits between their two desks. The standards supplied by

the magazine, Administrative Management, though, require 200 square feet

per man at the lowest executive level. It seems, then, that our top assistants

are given, at most, only half the office space which the low-level executive needs

for efficiency. The problem is complicated by the fact that each assistant must

speak to at least five or six people per day in his office providing a great amount

of distraction to his colleague next to him.

The executive assistant and two caseworkers occupy the last office in the

group of five. Assuming that these staff members would qualify as administrative personnel considering the amount of file space and guest space needed, efficiency standards would prescribe at least 100 square feet per person. Their

room contains, though, only 65 square feet per person and again the noise

factor enters into the picture because of the impossibility of partitioning the

12x16 room effectively.

Finally, the combination mail, research and filing room may be considered.

The room itself contains 360 square feet of space apart from built-in cupboards..

Because the office is partially used for filing, only 120 square feet are actually

floor space. The main aisle in this office is only two feet wide. The American

Management Association, however, prescribes at least three feet of aisle space.

A further complication arises when one notices that two-feet six-inch file

drawers roll out into this two feet of aisle space.

In addition to the file clerk and a soon-to-be-procured, much-needed assistant,

there are two people handling the mail plus a researchist and her assistant in

this room. The two researchists have a partitioned area consisting of 63 square

feet. One desk, a table and as much source material as can be filed, fill the area.

The partitioned area itself does not even contain enough space for one clerktypist according to the System and Procedure Journal, yet it is in this office that

most of the necessary research is accomplished.

Other problems arise between this combination office and the main offices.

There is a constant flow of traffic between the files and the main offices. The

distance between the two rooms is about 50 yards which causes quite a few extra

steps, a problem easily remedied by a closer proximity.

One final aspect must be considered. The present allocation of our office space

was reached through a standard system planning procedure. The plan arrived

at, surprisingly enough, is the most efficient plan possible considering our space

limitations.

We have attempted to demonstrate the inefficient ratio of Senate office

space to employees as compared to the same ratio in private business. We have

certainly seen worse. Three months ago, our files were located in the sixth floor

hall along with two desks and two tables. Before that we were given one large

committee room from which to accomplish necessary Senate business. It is

true that since we are No. 100, we must try harder, but there are certain limits
16 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

and it is not the duty of the U.S. Senate to find out where those limits are. It

is the duty of the U.S. Senate, however, to provide for the best representation of

its constituency and it would seem that any action alleviating the office-space

problem would do much toward fulfilling this goal.

APPENDIX

Square

feet

Number of

people

Office space:

6300 360 5

6323 192 1

6325 289 3

6327 192 2

6329 192 3

6331 180 ()1

Total 1,405 

1 3 or 4 people.

Senator JORDAN. Another thing I would like to add for the record

here.

People don't always realize what our problems are when they talk

about how much space you have, and say, "My goodness, you have

five offices r They look at you with amazement about that.

There is a rule in the Senate and it is a good rule, the only rule

we can have, because you have to have some yardstick in measuring

anything—that the size of your State has something to do with the

number of offices you have. For instance, Texas has more office space

than North Carolina or Oregon. North Carolina has more people than

Oregon has. We have over 5 million people.

That doesn't necessarily mean by any means that you don't have as

much work as I do in your offices. Some offices with small populations

have a tremendous amount of work, because there are things in those

States that just require a great deal more work than in some of the

offices representing the larger States.

New York State, of course, has over 10 million people. Texas has

over 10 million people; and so do Michigan and Illinois. Senators

from all these States have more space than I do, and it is perfectly

correct that they should have. But the main thing we have got to do is

somehow to find enough space for every Senator, regardless of what

size State he is from, because he can't do a good job, in the limited

space that he has. It is getting worse every year. There is no question about it.

I did drop by my office Sunday afternoon late, for some reason—

I just came in to get something I had left that I needed to take home

and read, to be ready for Monday—and I saw two great heaps of

mail that came in Sunday. They still deliver mail here on Sunday,

that has to be answered Monday, so Sunday doesn't stop your work.

It just keeps coming in.

Mr. MALLICOAT. Yes, sir.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, sir.

Does anybody wish to ask Mr. Mallicoat a question?

Thank you very much.

Senator BOGGS. I must leave, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. I just wanted to say to Senator Boggs that I appreciate his being here.
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 17

This whole committee, I want to say for the record, is interested in

this problem, and they are interested in finding a remedy for this

problem.

Senator Tydings, we are glad you came. We just got right to you

this very minute. You timed this perfectly.

Senator TYDINGS. Thank you.

Senator JORDAN. And, being your neighbor on the sixth floor, I know

something about your problems. I have heard of them a great many

times, and I know they are facts. I said to Senator Spong who was

here earlier this morning, recalling the time that you came to my office,

that your being in proximity to your States increases the number of

your visitors.

We are glad to have you with us this morning to testify as to your

needs.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH D. TYDINGS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM

THE STATE OF MARYLAND

Senator TYDINGS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I think

that I don't have to tell you gentlemen the phenomenal volume of work

which must be done in a Senator's office. The workload is constantly

increasing. I have been struck by the rate of increase in just the twoand-a-half short years that I have been in the Senate.

Yet most of our offices are so small that they materially reduce-efficiency. My office, I think, is perhaps typical. It is on the sixth floor

of the Senate Office Building. It is a graphic example, really, of the

incredible conditions that are characteristic of too many of our offices

in the legislative branch.

My office is comprised of six rooms, each approximately 17 by 18

feet, for a total of 306 square feet of floor space. Before adding furniture, each staff member is allocated 60 square feet, whereas a commonly accepted architect's rule of thumb requires a minimum of 75

to 100 square feet per person for an office furnished only with desks

and chairs. Not book cases, not filing cabinets, not records, not things

like documents we bring in to distribute to constituents. In a room

used by my legislative assistant, for example, the available 306 square

feet of floor space are quickly reduced by 145 by the addition of files,

bookcases, and typewriters and stands, as well as the necessary desks.

To use a desk, my staff must have chairs, which occupy a total of 24

square feet. Further my staff must open desks and file drawers in the

course of their work. This takes another 12 square feet.

Subtracting areas necessary for opening and closing the doors

leading into the legislation section—actually the door to get into the

little cubbyhole, so to speak—the total area left for the people in the

room, five of them, is 90 square feet-18 feet apiece. The space for each

employee is only one-fourth to one-fifth the minimum of 75 to 100

square.feet for one person in an ordinary efficient standard office

operation.

Each individual's allocated 18 square feet includes every inch of

usable floor space. The 18 square feet, Mr. Chairman, is less than

the size .of a desk top, or a Senate clothes closet. Under these conditions privacy and quiet are nonexistent. The offices of my legislative

assistants are cubicles separated by plastic partitions from the sight,
18 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

but emphatically not the noise from voices, telephones, and typewriters that are inches away on the other side. It is impossible for

my legislative assistants to consult privately with constituents or other

visitors.

Needless to sav it is very difficult to concentrate and sometimes even

to hear in these offices.

We do try to take advantage of the District of Columbia Committee

hearing room across the hall when a hearing is not being held on the

District of Columbia. My men have to go over there just to talk with

people, and if you had a minute or two this morning. Senator Jordan,

if you would just slip back and take a look at my legislative section or

any other part of the office, you would see exactly what I am talking

about.

Seeing what it is like would be more graphic and more impressive

than just hearing me talk. Conditions are so cramped that people passing by the legislative secretary are almost certain to be hit on the hip

by a rapid fire typewriter carriage.

You just can't even move in that room.

Part of the blame for these conditions must fall on the design of the

sixth floor of the New Senate Office Building. The rooms are simply

too small. Indeed, the outside corridor on the sixth floor is nearly as

wide as the rooms are. If the corridor were even two feet narrower

instead of 12 feet wide, each person in my legislative section would

have one-third more working space. In fact one of my colleagues

had a desk, an assistant, and some filing cabinets in the sixth floor

hall this year, because he had too little office space.

You recall that was done—down the hall. I have thought about that.

but never with quite that much temerity. But outside my windows is

a beautiful7 wide, and inaccessible balcony. These are no doors to it. I

know it is inaccessible because to ease the crowding and improve the

ventilation I considered putting chairs and desks out there sometime

during the summer.

But the superintendent told me we are not permitted to open the

windows. At least I did not have to decide who would be allowed to

work out on the balcony. Everyone wanted to, since there is more room

on the balcony than there is in our offices, but unfortunately we can't

get out there.

Another reason for overcrowding is the system of assigning rooms

which results in a number of wide differences in assigning Senators

and great delay in getting permanent office space assignments. New

Senators often must wait as long as 3 months after the opening of

Congress before they have a permanent office assignment, and even

then, their offices frequently consist of the spare rooms that may be

left over from other Senators, often rooms located on separate floors

of the building.

The real remedy, of course, Mr. Chairman, lies not in reshuffling,

but in adding office space. There simply is not enough room presently

available for ending the overcrowding which constitutes a fire and

health hazard as well as being grossly inefficient. When I think of the

standards in the executive branch, the working conditions there, the

working conditions in ordinary industry, and then I see what we have

to contend with here. And my staff is not unusual. I mean there are

many other Senators that have them jammed in like we do.
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 19

One possibility to alleviate these conditions is of course, the completion of the fourth wing of the New Senate Office Building.

I would certainly support such a step, or any other solution which

the committee finds to be equally effective. I am aware, Mr. Chairman,

that Congress must try to limit Federal spending at this time. But I

consider adequate working conditions to be essential to the proper

functions of the Senate.

Failure to act would be false economy and I submit, Mr. Chairman,

that if we were a business, we were run as a business, and efficiency

experts were brought in, they would say that it would be far more

cost-effective to have adequate office space for the people you have

than to jam them all in the cubbyholes we have and not get nearly as

much production out of the individual.

If we were General Motors or Du Pont or any efficient business

operation, we would never permit really this incredible overcrowding

of senatorial offices. We are here to serve the public and it is certainly

penny wise and pound foolish to fail to provide the minimum working:

conditions for our staffs to function effectively to serve our constituents and serve the people of this Nation. Senator Fulbright,. just last

Monday, put in a resolution which really is designed at reinforcing

the constitutional rights and authority and effectiveness of the legislative branch.

But if we neglect the first basic priority, namely, just the working

space, and the room for our staffs to operate, how can we ever expect

to really once again become a coequal branch in our constitutional

system?

I know that the chairman is sympathetic. Senators Spong and Byrd

and Brewster and I and others have appeared before him. He knows

our peculiar problems. When you have a million constituents who are

10 cents away by telephone, or 14 or 15 or 20 miles away by car, if

they have a problem they come in and see their Senators. That is fine

and I encourage and welcome it, but I would like to have a place to

put them.

As Senator Jordan and all of you well know, many times my constituents have to stand outside in the hall. I would like some of them

sometimes to see my office, but it is just too small. I have had opportunities to move to other office suites—my seniority has improved, I

am up to 91st—but if I were to do that, I might have a little bigger

personal office but my staff would be even more crowded. I am not

going to do that.

I am not in my office that much anyway. I am at committee meetings,

and what have you. But I certainly hope, Mr. Chairman, that you

and your subcommittee can take some action here, because it just is

economically unsound, if not downright foolish, to reduce so much

the efficiency of our staffs by not providing adequate working space.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, Senator Tydings, I don't

suppose anybody in the Senate is more familiar with your problems

than I am, besides yourself, and because we are neighbors and I have

been through your entire suite more than once.

Senator TYDINGS. That is right.

Senator JORDAN. And I know you have almost got your people

stacked up in there.

Senator TYDINGS. That is right.
20 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

Senator JORDAN. And I want to put on the record another thing at

this point, and Senator, I am sure you will be interested in this. Every

member of this subcommittee is here or has been here this morning.

That is unusual, isn't it, Senator? It is unusual for a subcommittee

hearing, because you know how busy we all are.

Senator TYDINGS. That is right. So many are always going on.

Senator JORDAN. And the reason they are all here is that they are all

interested in this problem. They know this problem. And we are going

to try to find a solution for this problem.

Senator TYDINGS. I sincerely hope that you will do so, because I

think you will really save the taxpayers many, many hundreds of

thousands of dollars in production and services for the constituents

and the Nation, by improving the efficiency of our operations.

Senator JORDAN. Senator, did you have any questions to ask him?

Senator INouyri. I would just like to ask one. While listening to

Senator Tydings' testimony I could not help but recall a little article

I recall reading many years ago on Daniel Webster, when he was in his

prime in the U.S. Senate, and he was writing about a very busy day,

when he had three visitors from his State, and five letters from his

constituents.

Now in a little State like Hawaii, in my office, I am averaging about

125 letters from my constituents per day, and 25 visitors per day, on

an average. And on that basis, I dread to think of what you are receiving in Maryland.

Senator TYDINGS. It depends on the weeks, Mr. Chairman, but I

average about 350 letters a day, and we average about 300 visitors a

day, and we have three girls that do nothing but handle the telephones

in my office.

I mean just incoming calls.

Senator INOTTYE. Mr. Chairman, I suppose Alaska and Hawaii

could be considered culprits in this situation. When the planners drew

up this building, they did not look upon Hawaii and Alaska becoming

States. Because of Hawaii and Alaska, you have been denied 20 rooms.

Senator JORDAN. Well, there is a great deal of truth in that.

Senator TYDINGS. Yes, there is, Senator.

Senator JORDAN. In the short 9 years that I have been in the Senate,

9 years in April of this year, Hawaii and Alaska both became States

of the Union, and I voted for both of them, incidentally.

Senator INotryE. - We gobbled up 20 rooms.

Senator JORDAN. And this did take room because this building was

finished and occupied when I came in and Senator Hatfield—this happens to every No. 100, Senator—he sat in that big hearing room over

beyond there for over 3 months, one room, had his whole staff in there,

because there was no other place to put him.

There was not a single office suite open, until everybody go moved

and he finally wound up in the No. 100 spot, back there. Now that is

not too good.

Senator TYDINGS. It is really not, and I think, Mr. Chairman, you

will be doing a great service to people in this Nation as well as to

the Senate and to the Congress if you can make strides—and rapid

strides, I might add—in solving this problem.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you. I might add another thing for the

record which the staff all knows. Quite some time ago you received
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 21

a letter from me as chairman of this subcommittee. We wrote to every

Senator in the Senate, and asked him for his space requirements, if

he needed additional space or not.

We wrote to every chairman of every subcommittee and every committee, and we have a reply to all those letters, so we have a pretty

good—in fact, we have a perfect—answer to the question, and it is

very serious.

Thank you, sir.

Senator TYDINGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. We will recess this hearing just for a few minutes,

because we don't have another Senator or one of his assistants here

to testify. I was told that one Senator could not get here until noon.

Well, I intend to wait for him. I am not going to run out on any of

them because I know they have problems and we want to hear their

problems. I have several others who have said that they would be here.

(A. recess was taken from 11 a.m. to 11:05 a.m.)

Senator JORDAN. The subcommittee will come back to order. Mr.

Kreps

'

we are glad to have you, sir.

Mr. KREPS. Very good to be here, sir.

Senator JORDON. And you are representing my good friend in

Oklahoma, Senator Harris.

Mr. KREPS. I have that privilege, sir.

Senator JORDAN. We are delighted to have you here. You may read

your statement, or put it in the record as it is, or any way you wish

to do it.

STATEMENT OF DR. LESLIE R. KREPS, ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT TO HON. FRED R. HARRIS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE

OF OKLAHOMA

Dr. KREPS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Because the Senate is faced with a serious shortage of office space,

Senator Harris wished to present this testimony emphasizing the need.

However, because of an executive session of a committee of which he

is a member it was necessary for him to request that this statement be presented by me, his administrative assistant.

Senator JORDAN. You may proceed, sir. Thank you very much for

being with us.

Mr. KREPS. At the outset let me emphasize that Senator Harris

could not support construction of any new federal buildings while the

present crisis in Vietnam continues, and more serious domestic needs

are unmet, but once this situation is alleviated, plans for adequate

office space for the Senate should be available for implementation.

Senator Harris continues by emphasizing that [reads] :

* * * as Senators, we have voted for adequate facilities for a growing number of Federal agencies, but when it comes to the office space in

which we and our staffs must work, we have not met the need.

Let me just mention the office situation which the Senator's personal

staff and the staff of the subcommittee which he chairs must work.

In his personal suite, only four rooms are available for staff members. Presently there are 16 permanent employees, so two offices contain

five persons each, one office contains four, and the reception room must

be used as an office for two.

S2-687 67 I

A
SENATE OFFICE SPACE

This means that no member of the Senator's staff has a separate

office. When I as his administrative assistant or his legislative assistant must confer with constituents, it is necessary for us to do so in the

presence of other staff members.

This is not only inefficient, but also embarrassing at times for these

constituents, and this situation will be made worse when a new legislative assistant is hired in the near future.

The Senator therefore would hope that two additional rooms could

be assigned for the use of his personal staff.

Consideration should also be given to the subdivision of some of the

offices presently assigned so that more privacy would be available.

The Subcommittee on Government Research now occupies grossly

inadequate office space. The main office of the subcommittee, located in

room 217A of the Old Senate Office Building, is very small; it is without air conditioning, and is occupied by the staff director and his

secretary. There is hardly space in this office for these two employees,

and conditions do not allow for more than two additional persons at

a time to enter his office. It is noisy, stuffy, and generally uncomfortable.

The second office, which is occupied on a temporary basis by the

staff of the subcommittee, is in the basement, room 27A of the Old

Senate Office Building, and is assigned to Senator Mike Monroney and

will have to be taken back by him soon for his own needs.

It has no windows, and the air-conditioning system does not work

in this room which basically is a storage room.

The subcommittee staff greatly needs space for approximately eight

committee staff members, and finds the present situation most inconvenient and uncomfortable.

Because the space now used by the Subcommittee on Government

Research is not suitable for office use, the Senator would hope that

two additional rooms of average size could be assigned to this

subcommittee.

Mr. Chairman, I and the Senator thank you very much for going

into this very serious problem. This concludes the Senator's statement, and I would like to have it included in the record, in his words,

rather than mine.

Senator JORDAN. It will be included as you have indicated.

(The document referred to follows:)

STATEMENT OF SENATOR FRED R. HARRIS

Mr. Chairman, because the Senate is faced with a serious Shortage of office

space, I wished to present, in person, testimony emphasizing this need. However, an executive session of a committee of which I am a member makes it

necessary for me to request that this written statement be accepted instead.

At the outset let me emphasize that I could not support construction of new

federal buildings while the present crisis in Viet Nam continues and more serious domestic needs are unmet. But, once this situation is alleviated, plans

for adequate office space for the Senate should be available for implementation.

As Senators we have voted for adequate facilities from a growing number of

federal agencies but when it comes to the office space in which we and our staffs

must work we have not met the need. Let me just make mention of the office

situation in which my personal staff and the staff of the subcommittee I chair

must work.

In my personal suite only four rooms are available for staff members. Presently there are sixteen permanent employees, so that two offices contain five people each, one office contains four and the reception room must also serve as office

space for two. This means that no member of my staff has a separate office. When

my administrative or legislative assistant must confer with constituents, it is
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 23

necessary for them to do so in the presence of other staff members. This is not

only inefficient but also embarrassing at times to the constituents.

This situation will be made worse when a new legislative assistant is hired

in the near future.

I, therefore, would hope that two additional rooms could be assigned for the

use of my personal staff. Consideration should also be given to the subdivision of

some of the offices presently assign,ed so that more privacy would be available.

The Subcommittee on Government Research now occupies grossly inadequate

office space. The main office of the Subcommittee, located in Room 217A-OSOB,

is very small, without air conditioning and is occupied by the Staff Director and

his secretary. There is hardly space in this office for these two employees, and

conditions do not allow for more than two additional persons at a time to enter

the office. It is noisy, stuffy and generally uncomfortable.

The second "office," occupied on a temporary basis by the staff of the Subcommittee is in the basement (Room 27A-OSOB) and is assigned to Senator Mike

Monroney, and will have to be taken back by him soon for his own needs. It

has no windows and th,e air conditioning system does not work.

The subcommittee staff greatly needs space for approximately eight committee

staff members and finds the present situation most inconvenient and uncomfortable.

Because the space now used by the Subcommittee on Government Research is

not suitable for office use, I would hope that two additional rooms of average

size could be assigned to it.

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for going into this serious problem.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much for being with us, Mr. Kreps,

and I hope you convey my best regards to Senator Harris.

Mr. KREPS. I certainly will, sir.

Senator JORDAN. And I am familiar with his problem. I have a dual

problem. My problem is I am chairman of the Rules and Administration Committee, and all these requests come to my committee. Now

I am up here trying to find an answer to some of them.

Mr. KREPS. This was somewhat confusing to me at first, sir, as a new

staff member. These letters would go to you as chairman of the Rules

Committee and then letters seeking a solution were coming from you

as chairman of a Public Works Subcommittee.

Senator JORDAN. I can say to you and all the other Senators that our

task on this Senate Rules Committee is to iron these things out, but

my task over there and the work of the staff of the Rules Committee

would be made much, much easier if we could just say, "Here are two

rooms for you." But we have to keep saying we don't have them and

the reason you got this one in the basement was that we somehow got

somebody to loan you some space. I spend a great deal of time, Senator,

asking Senators, "Would you loan him this?"

I just did this last week, and that is another basement room.

Mr. KREPS. With another basement room?

Senator JORDAN. Another basement room in the Capitol. I asked a

Senator—and they are all nice people, and like to help each other—and

he said, "Yes; I will take out two of these Flexowriters. I can get along

without them for the time being and I will let him use this space."

Mr. KREPS. Well, speaking on behalf of staff members, we certainly

realize these problems that are faced, and as an administrative assistant

who is the one that first gets the complaints of the various staff members, we too are put in the position of then going to the Senators, and

they are very much aware of this, and the assignment of most limited

space is done very patiently by the Rules Committee. Sometimes, I feel

that we are somewhat impatient, and I would convey at this time that

we are very much aware of the present problem that you face in finding

adequate space for staff members, and are appreciative of all the efforts
24 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

put forth by you and other members of the Rules Committee to solve

these problems.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you so much.

Senator Inouye, have you any questions?

Senator INOUYE. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, and convey our best regards

to your Senator. He is on a very important task right now.

Mr. KREPS. And he does have extra duties.

Senator JORDAN. For your information I did not help him any this

week, because we unloaded another one on him.

Mr. KREPS. This week?

Senator JORDAN. Through the McClellan committee.

Mr. KREPS That is right.

Senator JORDAN. We are going to keep him busy.

Mr. KREPS. I appreciate being here. Thank you.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you so much.

Mr. Newberry, we are glad to hear from you, sir. You are representing Senator Brooke today. He was also on a very important committee. We are glad to have you here, and will be glad to hear from you.

STATEMENT OF CAMMANN NEWBERRY, ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT TO HON. EDWARD W. BROOKE, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE

STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS

Mr. NEWBERRY. Thank you very much. Senator Brooke has the same

problem as Senator Harris has.

Senator JORDAN. I know he does, yes.

Mr. NEWBERRY. Mr. Brooke wanted very much to be able to deliver

this short statement which he prepared in person, and he asked that

I request permission to read it for him.

Senator JORDAN. You may do so, and it will be included in the record

at this point in its entirety.

Mr. NEWBERRY. I am now reading Senator Brooke's statement:

Mr. Chairman, I am most grateful for the opportunity to submit a

brief statement to the Public Buildings and Grounds Subcommittee.

I appreciate your time is limited, so I assure you that I will not be

long in presenting my views. It probably will not come as a surprise

to the subcommittee if I state at the outset that I am in favor of providing more adequate space for senatorial offices, even if this requires

new construction.

I discuss some of the space problems I confront in my own office not

in a spirit of criticism or complaint but in the hope that a discussion of

the plight of the individual Senators may be helpful to the subcommittee in dealing with and deciding upon the proper course to follow.

Under the prevailing regulations of the Senate, a Senator from

Massachusetts is assigned five rooms, one for his own office and the

remaining four rooms for his staff. It is to the matter of the space

allocated to the staff that I address myself.

One difficulty is that in making an allotment of five rooms to a

Senator, no governing standards apparently exist as to what minimum

dimensions comprise a room. In the Old Senate Office Building, where

most of the rooms are of generally the same size, four rooms for the

staff would, in all probability, prove adequate for a staff of average

size.
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 25

But in the New Senate Office Building where there exists considerable variance in the size of rooms, four rooms can quite definitely

prove inadequate.

For example, in suite No. 1251, to which the junior Senator from

Massachusetts has been assigned, the rooms vary in size from 154

square feet to 336 square feet. Total floor space for the four staff

rooms total 990 square feet.

During the summer months, my staff includes 26 individuals and if

one conservatively allows 60 square feet per individual, which is the

minimum per person prescribed in the General Services Administration Guide for Space Planning and Layout, and one divides this minimum of 60 square feet per individual into our total of 990 square feet

the result comes to maximum space for 161/2 individuals--10 less than

the number of staff members presently working in our quarters.

It should be remembered that this computation of space per individual officeworker does not take into account such basic space

occupiers as file cabinets, bookcases, Xerox machine, chairs for visitors,

and so forth.

It is not surprising that during the summer months it has been

necessary for my staff to play a sort of perpetual musical chairs game.

On many occasions members of the staff have found it necessary to

use the cafeteria as a place of work; a purpose for which I assume the

cafeteria was not designed.

Other than during the summer months my regular staff numbers 20

individuals. Dividing our total floor space for the staff of 990 square

feet by 20, this comes to 49 square feet per person, which is 11 square

feet less than what the General Services Administration considers the

minimum space allowance for each individual worker in the office.

But arithmetic and statistics serve simply to confirm what I am

sure any member of my staff would be prepared to affirm: namely,

that the space allocated to them is woefully inadequate.

The State which I have the honor to represent, Massachusetts, although only in the 5 million population category, seems to have within

its borders a particularly articulate and activist electorate which generates a heavy pressure of staffwork here in Washington and I can

assure the subcommittee that my staff of 20 could very easily be

augmented by at least two or three permanent members.

I would like to make just two general observations and three recommendations.

1. It certainly does not have to be stressed that a U.S. Senator's staff

is called upon to produce a work output of very high standards, often

under considerable pressures. If ever a group of men and women were

entitled to sensible working conditions surely it is these employees of

our Senate staffs.

It is not easy for an individual to do his best work day in and day out

when, for example, eight people are literally jammed into a room that

could be crowded with an occupancy of four.

I suggest that it is not easy for a Senator to ask his legislative

assistant, say, to prepare a complicated memorandum in a room where

several telephone conversations are simultaneously being conducted,

where necessary conferences between staff members are in progress,

and where our four or five typewriters provide a constant background

of noise.
26 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

In fact on one occasion when my legislative assistant had a par- ticularly taxing assignment to prepare I found, somewhat to my con- sternation, that the only way in which he could make his dictation in- telligible to his secretary was to retire with the lady into the sena- torial lavatory.

While I could not help but applaud my assistant's initiative I sub- mit that a system that requires such maneuvers seems less than ideal.

2. Overcrowding also creates special problems as regards visitors.

As the members of this subcommittee well know, there are frequent instances where a Senator is using his own office for an interview while simultaneously it is necessary for his administrative assistant

or legislative assistant to have a conference with other visitors.

Because of the crowded conditions in my office there simply does

not exist the• room to accommodate seats for visitors, let alone much standing room in the staff area.

On many occasions, for instance, my administrative assistant has been obliged to ask the other three staff members who share his small

room to vacate their desks in order to hold a conference with visitors. If the conference is lengthy this obviously creates an intolerable interruption of work to say nothing of the bad impression it makes

on visitors.

In fact many guests to my office in just the brief time I have served here in the Senate have expressed to me utter astonishment at the conditions under which we ask our staffs to work.

And it perhaps is worth noting that because most visitors to the Senate Office Building come to one Senator's office this impression of overcrowding is the impression they carry away with them of the entire Senate staff office arrangement.

I conclude by making these recommendations:

1. More office space is urgently needed. This point seems to me so obvious and the need so pressing as to make further argument unnecessary. I would support wholeheartedly an immediate program of new construction to provide adequate office space.

2. I believe that plans for additional office space should be based on

a formula of allocating so many square feet per Senator, rather than

on the present formula of so many rooms per Senator.

Were all the rooms in both Senate Office Buildings of equal size, the number-of-rooms formula would make sense.

But since this condition manifestly does not exist and even with

new construction could not be made to exist, I submit that allocating

space on a square-foot basis is the most sensible approach.

3. I would further recommend that new planning for office space take into greater account the population of the State which a Senator

represents.

To cite one example, the suite which is presently assigned to me was formerly occupied by a Senator representing a State whose population is one-fifth of the State I represent. His staff numbers a total of 12 and, I might add parenthetically, that when I first visited his office prior to moving in I got the impression that his staff of 12 seemed quite crowded in space which today must be used by 26 persons. I most

respectfully submit that in allocating office space on the basis of population, future planning might well be able to use a more realistic

formula than the prevailing one which assigns the same number of
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 27

rooms to a Senator representing a State of 226,000 population as it

does to a Senator representing a State of over 5 million people.

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate having this opportunity to voice some

of my observations and recommendations. The fact that this subcommittee is holding hearings on the matter of adequate office space is

witness to the fact that its members recognize that the work of the

Senate depends to a substantial degree on the efforts of the dedicated

men and women who go to make up the staffs of the 100 Senators and

of the committees.

To the extent that the Senate provides these individuals with a

decent and sensible environment in which to do their work the Senate

itself, and in truth, the Nation too, will be the ultimate beneficiaries.

That concludes, Mr. Chairman, Senator Brooke's statement. May

I just add that I want to subscribe entirely to what Senator Harris'

administrative assistant said, and to thank you for the constant courtesy which you and your staff have shown us, in our problems, and for

your kindness in trying to solve them.

I am sure that all of us appreciate your problems, and your

difficulties.

Senator, that completes Senator Brooke's statement.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Newberry.

Senator Randolph, do you have any comments you would like to

make?

Senator RANDOLPH. Not on the testimony of the witness because I

have not been privileged to hear the testimony, except to listen to the

concluding remarks.

Senator JORDAN. I just want to say at this point that we are delighted to have the chairman of the full committee with us this morning, and to tell you, Mr. Chairman, that the entire subcommittee membership has been present, and stayed quite a long time. That is unusual,

as you know, with the busy workload going on, but it does indicate the

importance that the Subcommittee on Buildings and Grounds and the

chairman of this full committee, Senator Randolph, attaches to this

hearing, and their desire to do something about this. I am delighted

that the chairman could get here, and I hope he will make a statement for us.

Won't you come up here, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. This is all right.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you so much for being with us.

Mr. NEWBERRY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you for coming.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Chairman, may I make a brief statement at

this time?

Senator JORDAN. Please proceed, Senator Randolph.

Senator RANDOLPH. We have been discussing the need for appropriations for the highway construction program, and also funds for

carrying forward the Highway Safety Act. Senator Cooper and I

have been on the Senate floor and we have been conscious of the importance of this hearing, even though we were not present with you

earlier today.

And if you feel it convenient at this time, I would give a statement

in reference to the importance of the subject matter.

Senator JORDAN. I would be delighted to have you at this time.
28 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

STATEMENT OF HON. JENNINGS RANDOLPH, A U.S. SENATOR FRON

THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Chairman, I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the critical office space shortage with which the

Members of the Senate are faced.

Office space shortages are critical and we need some plan—some

definite plan to meet the needs. In your earlier remarks, I believe you

indicated that there were some 72 Senators.

Senator JORDAN. That is right, sir.

Senator RANDOLPH. And 24 committee and subcommittee chairmen

have indicated the need for additional space, so that the responsibilities

could be carried forward in a more efficient and, I use the word, "perhaps," a more economical manner.

We know that the responsibilities of the members have increased.

It is not necessary to argue that fact. In the days when I came to the

House, we were thinking in terms of the 4 months' session. Now we

are usually here 10 and 11 months.

We were dealing then with a relatively small number of subjects.

Now we are dealing in depth and scope with literally hundreds of

subjects which were not matters of concern at that time.

I call your attention, Mr. Chairman, to the jurisdictional matters before the Public Works Committee, as an indication of what I am saying

has come with the years.

There was no thought a few years ago of the necessity for very careful study and then prompt action, at least in part., in meeting the

problems of air and water pollution in this country.

But here two subjects of vital importance with staffs necessary to

carry forward studies has come about in recent years, and it is within

the scope and the responsibility of this Committee on Public Works.

I give that just as a factual example of what has transpired in the

Congress, and in the committees themselves.

I think of the work of this committee in connection with the Highway Traffic Act and the Safety Act, as something that was not considered by subcommittees within the Public Works Committee in past

years.

I think of the regional economic development acts as another phase

of our strengthening certain sections of this country that have special

problems and we have been faced with that obligation within this

committee. We have had these additional responsibilities and, with

these new problems, we have had, necessarily, to increase the employment. Yet with the increase in employment, we failed to properly

provide the office space for the personnel required, as witnesses have

stated today, and, as you have said, we are crammed for space and

the square footage per worker has been decreased.

I have certain information that the number of square feet of the

office space per worker in the Senate is about one-half of the standard

developed by the General Services Administration for employees in

our executive departments and agencies.

It should seem that Members of the Senate themselves should realize

that space is important to the work of the Senate. to the work of the

committees, and that it can be economical for adequate space to be

given for those staffs. We plan here, and we must think of the maxi-
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 29

mum benefits and also the least expenditure of public funds to meet

the needs.

I don't mean to do the job halfway, or to make some temporary

arrangement just for the sake of that approach, but there are the

problems of priorities within the Senate and within the Congress

these days and we want to keep those in mind.

And so I think that we in this committee are attempting through

the leadership of the distinguished Senator from North Carolina, the

chairman of our Subcommittee on Public Building and Grounds, to

survey this problem.

We think it is important not only from the standpoint of this

committee, but certainly other committees. Now the office space problem is not going to be lessened in the years ahead. It will become a

more critical problem and we also know that the costs for providing

construction will not stay at a level that we now have them; they are

at a level now much higher than they were a year ago, or 2 years ago,

or 5 years ago. This is what I am talking about, by the economy that

is involved if we do something, if the need is here. The need seems

to be proved now rather than later.

In the 80th Congress, I think we had certain foresight and initiative

in the passage of public law 169, which was an authorization for the

New Senate Office Building. If that had not been done in the 80th

Congress, why I think the conduct of the public business as carried on

by the Members of the Senate and the committees would have suffered.

I think that I would like to have the record reflect, Mr. Chairman,

that you have not only indicated the area which would be extended

but stressed the fact that a lesser price can accomplish what we need

now rather than if we wait, in connection with the property.

I don't know what it would cost 10 years from now, but I am sure it

would cost twice as much, or at least I would hazard that thought.

I am informed that construction costs are increasing at the rate of

3.2 percent per year. Thus the cost of construction of an extension to

the new Senate Office Building 10 years from now would be 32 percent

more than the cost of that construction today.

So it seems to me that there is a critical shortage and that this shortage is in both the Senate buildings and that we need a construction

program. We need time and it is going to take time. There must be

perhaps a 5-year leadtime from time of planning to completion of

construction, so what we are doing today under your leadership, Mr.

Chairman, is focusing attention on a problem. It is a problem that

someone might well say could be put off and put off and put off in its

solution, but I don't think that Members of the Senate want to approach this discussion from other standpoints than the one overriclin°. question: To do the work of the Senate, do we need additional

o ce space?

And can we do that work more efficiently with more office space?

And can we do the job of planning? Can we do it now, as to the construction, or the expansion or the development at a much lesser cost

than we could do it 5 or 10 years from now?

And these are all the questions that I think the Members of the

Senate will decide.

I appreciate the opportunity of sitting in and joining you, Mr.

Chairman and other members of the subcommittee, and the full committee, in, hope, adequate discussion and, I hope, action in this matter.
30 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, Senator Randolph, for be.

ing here, and as I indicated earlier, every member of the subcommittee has been here, because of the urgency of this very problem, and I

can assure you and the members of the full committee as well as the

subcommittee that I as one do intend to push this along as rapidly

as possible.

Senator RANDOLPH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. Senator Long, we are glad to have you with us.

I know you have an urgent problem, in more than one section of

your duties.

STATEMENT OF HON. RUSSELL B. LONG, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE

STATE OF LOUISIANA

Senator LONG. I appreciate it very much.

May I say, Mr. Chairman, that in years gone by, the Finance Committee simply has not participated in the contest for space. We never

sought to have rooms assigned to us unless that additional area was

absolutely necessary to effective performance of our functions, and

we have kept our staff to the very minimal, so much so that many

times we did not have the competence on our staff to really advise us

what the problem was, and had to ask executive agencies to do it for

US.

So, we have not been in the business of acquiring space with a view

that maybe some day we will be able to use it. We have emphatically

rejected the policy of "If we don't get it now, we might not be able

to get it later." In fact, the Finance Committee has in the past actually'

relinquished rooms which it could not immediately use in the interest of helping to meet the legitimate need of other committees and/or

Senators.

For example, when the committee was based in the Old Senate Office

Building, a very large room on the first floor was assigned to it in

addition to its regular suite of offices on the third floor. That room was

used for staff work on veterans and tax matters.

When our committee moved to the new building, that prime work

space on the first floor of the old building—the only extra room we

had—was reassigned to another committee, and we have been limited

from that time to this with no office space other than our regular fourroom committee suite.

Because of this cooperate attitude in years gone by, we now find

ourselves penalized and seriously handicapped.

The point I want to make is that the Committee on Finance comes

to you with clean hands—and a clear-cut absolutely justifiable urgent

requirement for additional office space.

Recognizing the broad jurisdictional responsibilites entrusted to the

committee and the rapid expansion of programs falling within that

jurisdiction (medicare and medicaid are examples of new complex

multibillion-dollar programs established under the Social Security

Act), the Rules Committee and the Senate authorized us to employ

six additional professional staff members as well as supporting clerical

personnel. These people are necessary to fully meet our existing responsibilities to the Senate.
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 31

Our responsibilities, I am sure you will agree, are substantial. They include taxes, tariffs, social security, welfare, medicare, sugar legis- lation, as well as significant jurisdiction in the area of veterans legislation.

Our legislative jurisdiction encompasses work performed by four separate committees in the House of Representatives. Those four House committees employ more than 50 people. In contrast, the Finance Committee, assuming all authorized positions were filled, would employ only 22 persons.

Today, we employ 11 regular employees and one temporary em- ployee. Nine of these people occupy three rooms in our four-room-com- mittee suite. In order to find space for two more—including the temporary staff employee who is coordinating a special study for the committee on the impact of steel imports—we emptied our storeroom in the basement of the Old Senate Office Building and moved in some old desks we were able to find. We hung pictures on the walls and put in a well-used bookcase. We exerted considerable effort to make an office out of it, but a single visit to S. 23 will convince anybody that it is still just a storeroom and that it should be returned to that use as soon as possible.

Today, despite its tremendous responsibilities, the Committee on Finance still has one of the smallest staffs in the Senate—I believe that only Senator Ellender's Agriculture Committee staff is smaller. As for space, I think it is an uncontroverted fact that the staff of the Committee on Finance occupies less space than any other committee staff in the Senate. We occupy less area even if our converted storage

room is taken into consideration.

In my letter to you, Mr. Chairman, dated May 9, I requested 2,700

square feet of additional floor space, involving about nine rooms, for the Committee on Finance. This would provide us with a total of 13 rooms for our ultimate 22-man staff. Thirteen rooms is not unreason- able. Right now, many Senate committees have far more space than this. Judiciary Committee, for example, has 45 rooms; Appropriations has 28 rooms; and Government Operations has 18.

These are office rooms in the Senate Office Buildings only—they do not include whatever additional space may have been assigned to com- mittees in the Capitol Building.

I do not begrudge other committees the space they have. However, I do believe the Committee on Finance can make a greater contribu- tion to the Senate and to the country if our staff is adequate to the demands that we place on it. At present, space limitations prevent us from operating with the type of staff the Senate has agreed we should have, and I thank the chairman of this subcommittee for his kind consideration in helping us to work out our problems and letting us have an adequate staff.

Nine rooms will provide the space necessary for us to properly re- spond to the many and varied demands placed on the Committee on Finance.

May I just give you one example of the kind of thing I am talking about?

Mr. Chairman, we have, with thanks to your cooperation and your help, just employed a young man who I think will impress you very greatly as an intelligent, brilliant and capable young man, who has a
32 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

lot of experience and expertise, and is highly regarded in the field of

foreign trade and balance of payments. Now, prior to that time, we

simply had no one who could qualify as a real expert in the field, and

here comes in the Kennedy round of negotiations. Here is this fellow

who has great competence. We really need a room to put him in, and a

secretary, where he can work on trade matters, and advise us about

the problem—tells us what this Kennedy round of negotiations is

going to do for textiles, for example, and what it might do to tobacco,

and what it will do to agricultural products, and things of that sort.

If we do the job right, you can call over there and find out what you

want to know. However, if you have to push this man in with a half

dozen people inside one room, it just makes for mass confusion, and

we can't do the job we should.

Prior to the time we were able to expand this staff of ours, if you

called over there to seek some information about what was happening

on taxes or what was happening on trade, about half the time, more

often than not, the answer you got would be to say, "Call the Treasury," or "Call the White House," or "Call the House Ways and Means

Committee. Don't call us; we are too busy over here."

The reason was, we only had about one professional staff person

on that whole staff, and then we had the jurisdiction of raising $150

billion a year in taxes and trying to exercise legislative oversight over

about $30 billion of spending, not to mention $50 billion of international trade, and we just didn't have the staff for the coverage.

Now we have the competence filled in, but we don't have the room;

there is not enough room for them to sit down and shuffle some papers

and think about the matter and dictate an answer, and I think we are

now getting into a position where we don't have to take the executive

branch's word for it, and, frankly, when you see that trade agreement

on American selling price you might want to vote aaginst it, and we

will be able to provide you with what you want to know about it.

It used to be said that when somebody wanted to oppose the Senate

Finance Committee, that they would never succeed, because they would

never be able to get the information, in order to make an effective

argument to the contrary. We didn't have it ourselves. You have

helped us to provide a staff that can do the job and we thank you.

People now call from the House of Representatives and ask us

about House bills because we now have the competence to know what

is going on up here. To make it fully effective, we need the space to

put that competence to work.

I thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for the fine work you have

done for this Senate and for the country in taking a good look at

these needs, and for your courage. I know it is not always the most

popular thing to be the fellow that has to ask for a little more money

to provide some space somewhere for something, but I really appreciate the fine work you are doing, and I believe the Senate as a whole

does.

And the same to your fine committee.

Senator JORDAN. Senator Randolph, any comments you would like

to make?

The CHAIRMAN. No, I am grateful for the assistant majority leader,

the Senator from Louisiana coming and discussing the problems from

the standpoint of the committee which he chairs. I think this is im-
I

SENATE OFFICE SPACE 33

portant that those who feel the importance of this subject come and

discuss it with us, especially the chairman of committees who have

responsibilities not only within their own staffs, personal staffs, but

committee staffs as well.

And the illustrations given this morning by the Senator from

Louisiana, I think, are helpful in documenting this record.

Thank you.

Senator JORDAN. Senator Long, I had something to do that contributed to helping you solve some of your problems, as you well know.

Senator LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator JORDAN. Because when you came before the Rules Committee, and asked for the money to hire these additional people, we

gave it to you. Not quite all you asked for, but pretty close.

Senator LONG. That is right.

Senator JORDAN. And then you did not have any place to put them

which I know about.

Senator LONG. That is right, sir.

Senator JORDAN. It reminds me that not long ago one of the members of the Rules Committee got appointed to a subcommittee to make

an investigation and he asked for the money, and I said to him,

now you are a member of this committee. The first thing I want to

know is, are you going to require additional room? Because you know

we don't have any. He said, "Oh, no all I want is the money. I have

got the room situation worked out." He got the money, and he was in

my office the next morning, and that is true. He said "well, I have

hired my staff; Where am I going to put them"? I said, "that is up

to you. I don't have any rooms.

Senator LONG. Mr. Chairman, I have seriously considered—the reason we happen to have the room we have is that Elizabeth Springer

was instructed by Senator Byrd to go look at what was available in

the New Senate Office Building and to see what she thought would

be the best place to have.

We had only about a four-man staff at the time and so she looked and

she picked that committee room, because she 

time,

that was the

prettiest hearing room, and it is a beautiful hearing room; it is somewhat like this but larger; it is two stories, you see, real high ceilings,

and I have thought of putting a false ceiling in here, and putting a

floor, so we could have just twice as much space.

I would like to put this off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator LONG. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. Senator, how soon do you anticipate a vote on this

bill that is coming?

Senator LONG. I don't really have that, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It won't be soon, sir.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for

being with us.

Senator Byrd.

Senator BYIM of Virginia. I know a great deal about his plight also,

we have had a good many conversations regarding rooms and I remember very distinctly Senator, when you and your colleague who

was here earlier this morning, Senator Spong, and the Senators, both

Senators from Maryland, Tydings and Brewster, came to see me about

your problem.
34 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

Because you lived so close to your constituents they all come to see

you almost daily and you do have a material problem, I know that,

too, and I am glad to have you with us today to testify, because we

are going to try to start planning a remedy for this situation.

STATEMENT OF HON. HARRY F. BYRD, JR., A U.S. SENATOR FROM

THE STATE OF VIRGINIA

Senator BYRD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I realize that you and the committee have a very difficult problem, and I am not here today to complain, but merely to present for the record the plight of one Senator, and I imagine other Senators, many of them, are in the same difficult position.

I have five rooms in my suite, and when you take out my office, I

have four rooms for a staff of 14. As you mentioned in your opening remarks, being so very near to the State which I have the honor to represent, we have large numbers of visitors who come to the office, and I want to say that I am very pleased whenever they do come to the office.

The many Virginians who come to my office are welcome, and the

more the better. I want them to come there, but it makes it somewhat difficult to handle the office with the very inadequate facilities and

space which we now have.

Last year, when my office was in the New Senate Office Building, I

rented an apartment across the street and turned that into an office, but now I am in the Old Office Building and I am there by choice.

You gave me an opportunity to have this suite in the Old Office Building, and I preferred that, and I took it by choice, but there is no

apartment available near by that I can rent. Otherwise, I would be renting one to get some additional office space.

Senator JORDAN. Didn't you have the pleasure of occupying suite

100 at one time?

Senator BYRD. I sure did. Yes, sir, I had suite 100.

Senator JORDAN. I can recall a lot about 100. I remember your prob- lems down there. Go ahead. I did not mean to interrupt you.

Senator BYRD. Well, Mr. Chairman, I won't take more of the time of the committee, other than to emphasize the need for additional office

space.

I will say again I realize the problems which the committee faces.

I do not come here in the nature of a complaint, but merely to state for the record that in representing a State the size of Virginia, and I

might add that only 14 States, I believe I am correct in this—only 14

States have a larger population than does Virginia, and only Mary- land is as close to the District of Columbia as is Virginia, and this, in itself, presents some very difficult problems in the way of space, which I would hope at the appropriate time the committee would be able to take that fact into consideration.

I thank the committee very much.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, Senator Byrd.

Senator Randolph, do you have any questions of Senator Byrd?

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Chairman, I think it is very helpful for Senator Byrd of Virginia to testify before the subcommittee, because

as he has indicated, if he is to serve his constituents in the Common-
4

SENATE OFFICE SPACE 35

wealth, why he must have the adequate space to accommodate the

staff, so that those persons who come to see him can conduct their

business with him in a manner conducive to the processes of what I

will call good government in this instance, and also to handle the correspondence, which is necessary with his constituency, and to be able

to provide for himself and those who work with him the space which

is needed.

Knowing Senator Byrd of Virginia, I know that he is here this

morning because he feels that the planning and the programing that we

do now, the possible acquisition of land now, the building which would

come later, the temporary quarters which might be provided to bridge

this gap, that all of these fit into the matters that must be considered

by this subcommittee, but that there is this overriding need, in his

case, and that is all he has spoken for and that is the way I think members should come here, to discuss the situation as it affects the operation of their office in relationship to their work, not work they are

doing for themselves, but work that they have been charged to do for

the constituency they represent.

Thank you.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you very much, Senator.

Senator BYRD. I want to thank the splendid Senator from West Virginia for his comments, and thank also the very fine Senator from

North Carolina for permitting me to appear today.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you, sir.

Now we will hear from our colleague from Rhode Island, Senator

Pell.

You may begin, sir.

STATEMENT OF HON. CLAIBORNE PELL, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE

STATE OF RHODE ISLAND

Senator PELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman; I thank you for the opportunity to come here today to present this short statement on the problem of space in my office. I hope that this analysis will help you in

your important investigation into this matter.

The total usable office space in the five rooms which compose my

office is 1,921 square feet. Subtracting the area of my personal office,

425 square feet, and the space used in administrative support work

for such things as reference files and internal duplicating equipment,

230 square feet, my staff of 14 is left with a total of 1,266 square feet,

distributed over four rooms. If the basic space allowance were to be

computed in accordance with the GSA Guide for Space Planning and

Layout, taking account of space allowances in proportion to the grade

of responsibility of my staff members, they would be required to have

1,760 square feet of office space. The difference between our actual

area and the GSA recommended area is 494 square feet, or an area

larger than the average size of a Senator's office. Another interesting

comparison can be made on a per capita basis. The national average

for Federal agencies is 135 square feet. The per capita office area in my

office is 90.4 square feet. That is 44.6 square feet per person less than

that of the average in regular Federal offices. This means that my staff

has about one-third less space than GSA would recommend.
36 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

The practical result of this shortage is that in each of the four staff

rooms, there are three or more persons working at the same time. Due to the lack of soundproof partitioning, many of my staff members find it very difficult to carry on phone conversations or give dictation while others are typing or having discussions. Conferences are also made difficult in any other room except for my office. Much of the more

substantive work must be done in conditions which are not at all con- ducive for creative thought.

This space shortage has been aggravated by the growth of responsibility which my staff, like every other Senator's staff, has come to

shoulder during the time which I have been serving in the Senate. As a

member of three committees, one joint subcommittee and one regular

subcommittee, I have found, happily, my responsibilities and duties

growing. My special interests in oceanology and in the area of rapid

transportation have contributed to this increase. But with these new

responsibilities have come more research work and space needs for

my staff.

Another factor which has contributed to this shortage of space is

the intern program. Although this need is not an official one and I

have not taken account of it in my computations, I feel that this

program is very valuable for young men and women. In our office

alone, it has helped to bring some 250 young people to Washington

and allowed them to have valuable experience with democratic process

on a personal basis. If a space allotment were computed for the average

of three interns who serve in my office, the space gap would widen to

over 650 square feet.

I feel that the situation which I have related to you is not at all

unique but commonplace in the offices of many of my fellow Senators.

Their staffs must also labor under the same critical conditions. I am

sure that they too feel the cramp of the ever-expanding amount of

work which must be done in a fixed or shrinking amount of usable

office space.

Obviously, with increased responsibility we can't solve the problem

by reducing staff. We must not allow this handicap to prevent us from

being able to do the kind of thorough job in our legislative and constituent work that the American people deserve. We cannot let a

shortage of physical space impair the workings of the Senate at a

time when so much more, not less, will be expected from the Members

of this body.

I hope that this information will be of help to your committee, Mr.

Chairman, in its important work on this critical problem of the shortage of office space.

I thank you for letting me appear at this time, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JORDAN. Thank you for your views. Your predicament is

exactly the same as so many other Senators—lack of sufficient space

to do an adequate job.

At this point I want to say to the press, we are indebted to you for

being here this morning to report on this very important situation that

faces the Senate. I am sure that you have gained more knowledge of

this problem than you would if you had not heard this, because very

few people realize the crowded condition that does prevail in the

Senate, and the great handicap that some people operate under.
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 37

If you will look right at the back of this hearing room, there are

two desks back there, and a lady back there now. I don't know how

she concentrates, but she seems to be doing that, and there is a typewriter back there and that lady must leave that typewriter—of course

she can't type when we are running a hearing at the same time—and

find some other place to work. You will find that the offices in the

Public Works Committee are just a series of—it looks like a beehive

back there, just going around partitions and backward and forward

to be getting to this hearing room.

It is a general condition. I plan to call this subcommittee back into

session next week, at the earliest possible day we can arrange, in order

to make some suggestions to the full committee as to what should

be done. We are going to try to do this in a businesslike way.

We are trying to determine our needs first, then to recommend a

remedy and go to the Senate to ask them to carry out what we think

is the plan to do something about it at the earliest possible date.

The committee has received a number of statements and letters from

Senators who could not be present to testify today relative to the extreme shortage of space in their offices and in their committees. I will

order that the communications appear in the record at this point.

(The insertions are as follows:)

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC WORKS,

Washington, D.C., August 4, 1967.

Hon. B. EVERETT JORDAN,

Chairman, Subcommittee on Public Bwildings and Grounds, U.S. Senate,

Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for your kind offer inviting me to

appear as a witness before the Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds.

Unfortunately, I will be absent on official business on the dates set for the hearing. However, I welcome your invitation to submit a written statement of my

views for the record.

Mr. Chairman, I share your concern over the critical office space problems confronting many Senators. The General Services Administration has pointed out,

in its Guide For Space Planning and Layout, that the environmental qualities

of an office have a demonstrable effect on both the quantity and quality of the

work performed. It is imperative therefore, that we provide our staffs with

adequate office facilities.

Your investigation of this matter is necessary and timely. It will reveal, I

am sure, innumerable instances of overcrowding and lack of space.

Briefly, I would like to outline the conditions faced by my staff. Despite the

generally recognized adverse conditions under which they are forced to operate,

I am pleased to report, they continue to perform admirably. Certainly they deserve better. No ordinary business operation could long attract or hold such toplevel employees if it were forced to crowd people into totally inadequate office

space.

In Room 304A, which is approximately 300 square feet, there are five fulltime staff members and, for most of the year, three or four college students

employed part-time. Room A houses the legislative department and, as you know,

legislative duties often require space for research, writing, and reference

materials. At present, the physical dimensions of Room A—averaging a little

over 40 square feet per person—cannot accommodate these necessary functions

properly. It should also be pointed out that the legislative department lacks

adequate file and storage space. As a result, valuable research materials must

often be discarded—only to be reordered when the need arises again.

Room B, which is 396 square feet, houses eight full-time staff members—

or about 50 square feet per person. In order to provide the proper working conditions for two staff members in Room B, partitions have been constructed. Consequently, the total space available in the room has been reduced significantly.
38 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

The reception room is 280 square feet, but it also has been partitioned. This

newly created office area is barely sufficient for a staff member and his secretary

to perform their tasks.

The remaining staff room, Room E. is nearly 300 square feet. It includes five

full-time staff members and three part-time employees.

Mr. Chairman, the General Services Administration has established an interim

space allowance guideline. I have compared the requirements set forth in the

GSA table with the crowded conditions facing my staff and found that rarely

does one of my staff members—regardless of his title, position and duties—have

the minimal space allotted to a Civil Service Grade 6 employee.

GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION, "GUIDE FOR SPACE PLANNING AND LAYOUT"—OFFICE SPACE

Grade Type of assignment Office space allowance

GS-1 to GS-6 60 sq. ft. per person.

GS-7 to GS-11 Supervisory 100 sq. ft. per person.

Do Nonsupervisory 75 sq. ft. per person.

GS-12 to GS-13 Supervisory 150 sq. ft. per person.

Do Nonsupervisory 100 sq. ft. per person.

GS-14 to GS-15 Supervisory 250 sq. ft. per person.

Do Nonsupervisory 150 sq. ft. per person.

GS-16, GS-17, and 05-18 300 sq. ft. per person.

This does not take into account, of course, the unique situation that arises

every summer when Washington plays host to bright young college students

who serve as interns. During each of the five years of my Senate tenure, I have

appointed from eight to a dozen college and university students to serve on my

staff. Despite the great overcrowding this has caused in my office, this program

is so beneficial it should not be curtailed. Although this is incidental to the

primary problem of space shortages confronting the regular staff, it does serve

to emphasize the seriousness of our problem.

Mr. Chairman, I am hopeful that this investigation will lead to a solution of

these deplorable conditions.

Sincerely,

BIRCH BATH, U.S. Senator.

U.S. SENATE,

Washington, D.C., July 81, 1967.

Hon. B. EVERETT JORDAN,

Chairman, Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds, Senate Convnattee on

Public Works, Washington, D.C.

DEAR EVERETT : Thank you for your letter of July 20th inviting me to express

my views on the suitability of office space which I have available for my Senatorial staff.

I currently am assigned five rooms in the Old Senate Office Building. One of

these is reserved for my personal use. The remaining four rooms are used to house

all of my fifteen permanent Washington staff members.

I have long realized that my quarters are not sufficient to accommodate the

staff I require. The current national average of office space per employee in

Federal agencies is 137 square feet. The current average in my offices is 99 square

feet per person. The crowding in this area is compounded by materials, office

machines, files and part-time employees. In addition, there is no room, except In

my own office, for personal conversation between staff members and constituents

or agency officials. To reach the national average enjoyed by Federal employees,

I would need an additional 565 square feet for my present staff, or roughly two

more rooms.

If the Committee wishes any further information regarding space utilization or

needs in my office, I would be happy to supply it.

Sincerely,

EDMUND S. MI:TIME, U.S. Senator.

STATEMENT OF SENATOR EDMUND S. MUSKIE, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE

OF MAINE

I appreciate the opportunity to present to this Subcommittee some facts and

recommendations regarding the space assigned to the Intergovernmental Relations Subcommittee of the Committee on Government Operations. I recognize that
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 39

the inadequacy of space available to this Subcommittee is but part of a general

problem which has grown to serious proportions with the growth of legislative

responsibilities of the Senate. I am grateful to your Subcommittee for giving

attention at this time to a problem which bears directly on the effectiveness with

which the work of the Senate is carried on.

The problem of the Intergovernmental Relations Subcommittee is one of arrangement more than floor space. The eight regular employees of the Subcommittee staff and the interns we have throughout the year all occupy a converted

hearing room which is 45 feet by 25 feet. This makes a total of 1125 square feet,

but fully a third of this not usable. Makeshift partitions used to separate offices

afford no privacy for conversation or conference and bulky storage cabinets further reduce usable space. In addition, the horseshoe hearing table still remains

in the room decreasing available space still further. Use of duplicating and other

machines in this environment creates an atmosphere not in the least conducive to

thoughtful work.

Depending upon the arrangement, 1200 to 1500 square feet of space in a suite

of offices or lending itself to necessary partitioning would solve the problem of

the Subcommittee. Suitable offices or work areas could than be provided for

the Staff Director, the General Counsel, Minority Counsel, Professional Staff

Member, Administrative Secretary and three secretaries or clerical assistants.

I am fully aware of the scarcity of space available and appreciate the problems of the Subcommittee on Public Building and Grounds in searching for

remedies.

U. S. SENATE,

Washington, D.C., May 16, 1967.

Hon. B. EVERETT JORDAN,

Chairman, Rules Committee,

U. S. Senate,

Washington, D.C.

DEAR EvERErr : You recently wrote to me about whether I might need additional space for my personal office. I have delayed this reply until we could complete an evaluation of our needs.

At this juncture we are in dire need of an additional room, which could be

utilized by my personal staff, and which should be located in close proximity to

my present quarters in the Old Building.

If such space could be made available—at least through December of next

year—it would not only be fully utilized, but greatly appreciated!

With kindest personal regards, I remain

Cordially,

WARREN G. MAGNUSON, U.S. Senator.

U. S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE,

May 24, 1967.

HON. B. EVERETT JORDAN,

Chairman, Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds of the Committee on

Public Works, U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for your letter of May 5 asking

that I indicate the number of square feet needed to provide satisfactory working

conditions for the staff of the Subcommittee on Employment, Manpower and

Poverty of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare.

The permanent staff of the subcommittee presently consists of two professional men and two secretaries. They are assigned to room 359 in the Old Senate

Office Building, which has approximately 300 square feet of floor space.

This room is completely inadequate for the subcommittee's staff operations,

Not only are staff personnel cramped for individual office space, but there is no

room for a sufficient number of file cabinets or other storage facilities and all but

one or two copies of subcommittee documents must be stored elsewhere.

The subcommittee, in order to function effectively under satisfactory working

conditions should have a minimum of 1,000 square feet of work space, or 700

square feet over and above what is now assigned to it.

I have not in this letter undertaken an assessment of the needs of the separate

poverty subcommittee study staff, under the authority of S. Res. 17, which currently numbers seven persons and is assigned to room 24 in the basement of the

Old Senate Office Building. This study staff is temporary, and I have no present
40 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

intentions of asking the Senate to authorize more than four permanent staff

assigned to room 359 during the Second Session of the 90th Congress.

I cannot urge too strongly that the Committee on Public Works authorize the

completion of the New Senate Office Building so that Senators, Committees and

Subcommittees will have sufficient office space for themselves and their office and

committee staff personnel.

Sincerely yours,

JOSEPH S. CLARK,

Chairman., Subcommittee on Employment,

Manpower and Poverty.

U. S. SENATE,

Washington, D.C., June 21, 1967.

HON. B. EVE:REPT JORDAN,

Chwirman, Committee on Rules and Administration,

U. S. Senate,

Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your letter of May 5, 1967, inquiring as

to ray Senate office space needs, which I am sorry not to have answered sooner

I am also grateful to Mr. Huyett for his note of June 16 enclosing a copy of

your letter.

As you know I presently occupy a suite of six rooms. An additional room, adjacent to my suite, has been assigned to the Subcommittee on Employment, Manpower and Poverty of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare. I have already communicated with you regarding the subcommitte's space problem in my

capacity as subcommittee chairman.

Because of the increasing Senatorial workload, and the consequent increases

in staff necessitated by it the work area in my suite has become more and more

congested with every passing year. It is now at the point where it can no longer

be considered adequate, and where, as a result of the lack of sufficient space,

the working efficiency of my staff may be impaired.

For example, there are five persons, each of them using typwriters, in the room

used by my Administrative Assistant. There are five persons in the room used by

my Press Secretary—a room which is also used as my inner reception room.

Similar conditions prevail throughout the suite.

In my judgment a fifty percent increase in space is clearly warranted. This

would mean, in my case, a nine room suite rather than a six room suite. Although

I appreciate that there is little which can be done at the present to provide this

badly needed space, I shall be grateful for whatever consideration you can give

to this request in planning for the future.

Sincerely,

JOSEPH S. CLARK.

CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES,

JOINT COMMITTEE ON DEFENSE PRODUCTION,

August 1, 1967.

Hon. B. EVERETT JORDAN,

Chairman, Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds, Committee on Public

Works, U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Reference is made to your letters of July 29, 1967, and

July 20, 1967, in which you state that hearings will be held relating to additional

office space on August 3, 1967.

In replying to your earlier letter of May 5, 1967, on May 10, 1967, relating to

space, it was stated that it would not be necessary to request additional office

space, but that some additional storage space for committee reports and files

would be helpful. Most of this storage space is now being utilized.

Since the Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds of the Committee

on Public Works has a very busy schedule, it is believed that the needs of the

Joint Committee on Defense Production can be set forth for the record without

taking up the time of the subcommittee. This committee has a limited amount of

storage space in the New Senate Office Building. The hearings and reports which

have been published since the passage of the Defense Production Act, in 1950,

contain considerable information on mobilization programs which are of importance to the current effort and to any future stepped up mobilization program.

Each department and agency of the Government has mobilization assignments

and reports to this committee.
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 41

It is requested that the number of square feet of storage space for the Joint

Committee on Defense Production be doubled in order that the files which should

be retained and the publications of the committee may be stored for distribution.

With kindest regards and best wishes.

Sincerely yours,

WRIGHT PATMAN,

Chairman.

U.S. SENATE,

Washington, D.C., July 31, 1967.

Hon. B. EVE'RETT JORDAN,

Chairman, Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds, U.S. Senate.

DEAR EvEaErr : Thank you very much for your letter of July 20th concerning

Subcommittee hearings on Senate office space. Unfortunately, I cannot personally

present a statement, because I am planning a trip to South Dakota.

I would like to take this opportunity to outline the problem as it affects me

personally, and I hope that this will be of some help to your Committee.

As you might know, my suite of offices consist of five rooms which average

approximately 13 x 24 feet. Out of this space, we must make my personal office,

a reception room large enough to accommodate visitors, office space for thirteen

staff personnel, and room for a good deal of office equipment, office machines,

books and files.

As a result, I am extremely short of office space, and I am forced to make arrangements which are far from satisfactory both to my staff members and to

visitors.

If there is any other information which I can provide or any other way that

I can be helpful to your Subcommittee, please call upon me.

With every good wish,

Sincerely yours,

GEORGE MCGOVERN.

STATEMENT OF HON. HENRY M. JACKSON, CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE COMMITTEE

ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee: The Senate Committee

on Interior and Insular Affairs has been operating with conscientious economy

for the past several years with respect to staff, to expenditures, in general, and

to office space. However, our responsibilities have been becoming more and more

truly national in scope and increasing in complexity.

Accordingly, we have reached the place where an additional room, with space

of some 450 square feet or so, would be most helpful to us. Such additional

space would enable us to fulfill our responsibilities more efficiently and more

promptly.

On behalf of the Membership of the Interior Committee, I wish to thank

your Subcommittee and to commend you on undertaking a much needed work.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN STENNIS, CHAIRMAN OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON

STANDARDS AND CONDUCT

The Select Committee on Standards and Conduct was established as a permanent committee of the Senate by S. Res. 338 of the 88th Congress. ,Since its

organization almost two years ago, the Committee has been very active in its

two principal areas of prescribed interest—the investigation of improper conduct

and the development of proposed standards of conduct. Most of the Committee's

attention during the period from March 1966 to June 1967 was directed toward

the conduct of a major investigation, hearings, and subsequent Senate debate

concerning a Senator. Prior to that case and again more recently the Committee

engaged in extensive research and discussions leading to the preparation of

standards. In addition, the Committee has had to dispose of several minor

complaints.

In order to carry out these functions, the Committee staff has been stabilized

at two legal counsel and two secretaries. For the duration of its major investigation, the Committee employed the services of an accountant from another

government agency, as is authorized by S. Res. 338.
42 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

Our Committee is using offices in three separate spaces on three floors of the

Old Senate Office Building. The largest of these offices in windowless, poorly ventilated, noisy, and lacking in privacy. The smallest is impractical for more than

one person.

The two largest rooms are occupied by sufference as loans. Serious problems

of communication and security are created by the physical separation and small

size of these offices.

A high level of intra-staff telephoning is necessitated by the separation of

offices. There can be no central control of incoming telephone calls nor any

means of handling telephone calls in two of the offices when the occupant is

absent.

Because of the great public interest in the subject matter of this Committee's

responsibilities, representatives of the news media, researchers, and the public

constantly call at the Committee offices to request information. It is this type

of caller particularly which has created embarassing confrontations in the

middle of witness interviews, Subcommittee hearings, and sensitive telephone

conversations.

The Committee itself has no place of its own for its formal meetings or hearings, most of which by their very nature have to be in guarded executive sessions. During 1966, there were about 25 such meetings and hearings, exclusive

of the large public hearings for which a special room was arranged.

With this background, I present the office space requirements of our Committee. As I responded to Chairman Jordan on May 9th, a conservative estimate

of our immediate need is 2,500 square feet of floor space. This total would include

a central reception-secretarial office; a small utility room for file cabinets,

supplies, office equipment, and publication storage; modest private offices for

the chief counsel and the associate counsel; a small spare office for temporarily

assigned investigators or for witness Interviews; and a room for formal Committee or 'Subcommittee meetings, hearings, and conferences. These spaces should

be contiguous.

The Select Committee on Standards and Conduct is a permanent Committee

which, but for the absence of express statutory designation, stands in the same

position as a standing Committee of the Senate. It is believed to be the policy

of the Rules Committee to assign a hearing room and three adequate staff

offices to each standing Committee.

Gentlemen, the work of the Committee on Standards and Conduct is of vital

importance to the Senate. If the Committee is to be productive, efficient, and

economical, it needs adequate working space. This need is urgent.

U.S. SENATE,

Washington, D.C. May 6, 1967.

Hon. B. EvERErr JORDAN,

Chanrman, Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds,

U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR EVERETT : Thank you very much for your letter of May 5 In which you

provided me with the opportunity to comment on my office space requirements.

Your courtesy is indeed appreciated, and I would like to commend you and

the Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds for your efforts to provide

adequate office space for Members of the Senate.

Until recently, my office space was satisfactory. However, the workload of

my office is increasing quite rapidly and it has become necessary for me to employ several additional employees. Therefore, I could use two additional rooms

to good advantage at the present time.

With kindest personal regards, I am

Sincerely,

HERMAN E. TALMADGE.

MS. SENATE,

Washington, D.C., August 2, 1967.

HOD. B. EVERETT JORDAN,

Chairman, Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds, U.S. Senate, Washington. D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for the opportunity to convey to your committee some of the problems which we have with our suite in the New senate

Office Building.

Like many others, our primary complaint is limited space. We have approximately 1,432 square feet of floor space available for my entire staff. This amounts
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 43

to an average of less than 100 sq. ft. per staff member, including space needed

for my reception room, the tables, fires, bookcases, etc.

With the expectation of soon adding a much-needed legislative assistant to

my staff, a minimum of 200 sq. ft. of additional space will be needed for him,

his secretary, and his files to merely retain the present crowded condition. Already, my Executive Secretary is without private space.

Presently the gfeatest problems occur in our small reception room. There is

room for only one secretary and four visitors, and my private office opens directly into this usually congested room.

With kindest regards, I am

Sincerely,

JOHN SPARKMAN.

U.S. SENATE,

Washington, D.C., August 2, 1967.

Hon. B. EVERETT JORDAN,

Chairman, Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds, Committee on Public

Works, 4204 New Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: I appreciate the invitation to appear before your Subcommittee and wish that I might avail myself of this opportunity. Unfortunately,

I must be away at the time of the hearing and I am therefore sending you this

letter to outline to the Subcommittee my own critical space situation.

New Jersey is the eighth largest state and its population is increasing. At

the time of the last reapportionment of Congressional seats, it was the only

state in the northeast to receive an additional representative. In the twelve

years that I have been in the Senate. the volume of mail, telephone calls and visits

received in my office has increased at least four-fold. Indeed, the volume of mail

has doubled in the last two years alone.

As a member of the minority, I do not have any committee posts and the

brunt of my legislative work presently has to be carried by my office staff. The

additional legislative assistance provided in the legislative appropriation bill

is very welcome as my legislative workload, like that of so many of my colleagues, has steadily increased. The problem is to find physical room for additional staff.

At present, two of my staff must share the same desk for lack of sufficient

room to add eden a small desk or work table. We have tried to conserve our space

as much as possible by sending files to the General Services Administration and

by other means. No member of my staff has, for example, a private office. On

the contrary, in two instances five staff members share one small room. Three

persons are crowded into the tiny reception room. The overcrowding impedes

efficiency and makes it necessary to receive constituents under conditions trying

to them and difficult for us.

My situation is not unique, I know, and I look forward to the Subcommittee's

recommendations to provide more adequate space for meeting the critical office

space problem.

Sincerely,

CLIFFORD P. CASE, U.S. Senator.

STATEMENT OF HON. SAM J. ERVIN, JR., A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE

OF NORTH CAROLINA

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your offering me the opportunity to appear before

your subcommittee to present my views on the office space situation and to discuss my own space shortage problem.

First, let me say that I recognize the critical problem confronting many Senators and committees and subcommittees with respect to space shortage generally.

I would venture to suggest that scarcely a single Senator is without a problem

of this sort. There is no doubt whatever that the present office facilities available

to us in the Old and New Senate Office Buildings are not adequate. I would

therefore endorse any recommendation you might make that these facilities be

increased by further construction, such as the completion of the New Senate

Office Building along the lines of the original plans for its construction.

My own space problems have been critical for some time. I have 10 staff members in my Senate office, working in four small rooms. One of these rooms is

necessarily utilized as a reception room, and one is occupied by my Administra-
44 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

tive Assistant TAfat leaves 4 persons each in the other two rooms. Even if I had

no need for more staff assistants, I would not consider the present arrangement

satisfactory. Such cramped conditions must surely adversely affect work production. However, the fact of the matter is I need more staff personnel and I

have the funds available to hire them, but I cannot do so because I simply have

no place to put them. Consequently, I am precluded by shortage of office space

from utilizing the full office staff to me within my office budget.

The situation is even worse in the case of two Judiciary subcommittees of

which I am chairman, the Subcommittee on Revision and Codification, and

the Subcommittee on Separation of Powers. I have three staff members on the

Subcommittee on Revision and Codification, all working in one small room about

10 feet wide.

The Subcommittee on Separation of Powers has perhaps the most critical

space shortage. This subcommittee was organized this year to conduct a study

of the division of powers and responsibilities among the three branches of the

Federal Government. In my opinion and that of many of my colleagues this

is one of the most important studies to be undertaken by any committee in this

Congress. I have kept the staff as small as reasonably possible with the Intention

of utilizing law professors, political scientists, and other such experts as consultants during various aspects of our work. However, the subcommittee is now

located in one small room, which is not large enough for the present staff of

6 persons, much less for visiting consultants. There is no separate room for meetings of consultants and counsel to the subcommittee. Moreover, since the workload of the subcommittee can be expected to increase as the study progresses, I

expect to need additional staff personnel which will require additional space.

Mr. Chairman, I have previously suggested to this subcommittee two possibilities for making additional space available to the Subcommittee on Separation of Powers. The subcommittee is now located in Room 1403. The adjacent

room, 1401, is assigned to the Periodical Press. I am not certain how much that

room is actually used, but it appears to be used very little. If some arrangement

could be made for providing other facilities for the Periodical Press, the subcommittee could function quite satisfactorily, at least for the present, in the two

rooms-1403 and 1401.

The other possibility I have suggested is making available to the Subcommittee

the officers now assigned to the Joint Committee on Reduction of Nonessential

Federal Expenditures. My understanding is that that space is not actually necessary for the Committee, which is currently under the chairmanship of Representative Mahon and has other office space in the House Office Buildings. If that is

the case, or if smaller quarters elsewhere would suffice for that Committee,

perhaps that suite of offices could be made available to the Subcommittee on

Separation of Powers.

Again, Mr. Chairman, let me stress that, whether or not you are able to assist

us at the moment in alleviating our space shortage problem, I fully endorse your

efforts to make long-range plans to solve the over-all office space problem that

confronts the entire Senate.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear.

STATEMENT OF HON. PETER H. DOMINICK, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE Or

COLORADO

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to submit to the Subcommittee on

Public Buildings and Grounds the following memo on present office space allotments.

I feel strongly that present office space is inadequate for the numerous functions which my staff and I perform daily. Although I am not personally acquainted with all office problems, the increasing volume of work in the Senate

has required increased staffs for all Members. This has been reflected In increased

allowances with still higher allowances for clerk hire in the mill. Hence complaints about office space and parking space multiply day by day.

As an example, in my office there are sixteen full time and four part time

employees as well as volunteers who work several days a week. Since one of

the rooms in the five-room suite is my office, these twenty or more are divided
SENATE OFFICE SPACE 45

into the remaining four rooms along with file cabinets, office machines, and

extra tables and chairs. In one room are two legislative assistants, two secretaries, the caseworker, the file clerk and fourteen file cabinets. In another room

are my Press Assistant, three secretaries, two part time workers, eight file

cabinets and the mimeograph machine. The obvious result is that, while all of

these staff members require a degree of quiet to perform their jobs, they are

cramped and disturbed by constant noise. Disturbance is provided by telephone

conversations, machines, typewriters, and visitors, and the partitions provided

by the Senate Superintendent only slightly diminish the problem. Productivity

is greatly affected and reduced by noise and continuous interruptions. Concentration is impossible except for short periods of time. Therefore, I feel that

an additional room would immensely increase the efficiency and creativity of my

staff.

A second need which goes hand in hand with that of office space is that of

parking space. I would recommend that additional parking lots be created for

both employees of the Senate and visitors. Five of my staff members have reserved spots while the rest are given stickers for the D Street lot which is usually

filled by 8:30 or 8:45. In the summer the problem is worse because of the interns

and the larger number of tourists. One additional parking lot would go far to

relieve the situation.

U. S. SENATE,

TVashington, D.C., May 10, 1967.

Hon. B. EVERETT JORDAN,

Chairman, Subcommittee on Public Building*? and Grounds, Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

DEAR ,SENATOR JORDAN: Thank you for your letter of May 5 regarding the inquiry being made by your Subcommittee into the adequacy of Senate office space.

I am pleased that your Subcommittee is looking into this problem. Frankly,

since transferring from the House last year, I have been amazed at the inadequacy of facilities provided for Senators—as compared to facilities now available to House Members.

As a part of the inquiry, I hope the Members of your Subcommittee will take

time to inspect the suites in the Rayburn Building. When you do so, I hope

you will keep in mind that a U.S. Senator from Michigan (for example) represents nineteen times the number of constituents as a House Member from Michigan. Since becoming a Senator, we have been handling about ten times the volume

of work with less than twice the office space and less than twice the staff.

Once again, I commend you for looking into the problem. There is no question

but that Senators, particularly those who represent populous and growing states,

need more office space and storage space.

With best wishes and my kind regards, I am

Sincerely yours,

ROBERT P. GRIFFIN, U.S. Senator.

U.S. SENATE,

May 15, 1967

Hon. B. EVERETT JORDAN,

Chairman, Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds, U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: This is in response to your letter of May 5 asking about

the need for additional office space. Insofar as I can tell three additional rooms

or 1200 square feet would be satisfactory.

Sincerely,

EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN.

Senator JORDAN. I am going to insert in the record the names of the

72 Senators who indicated that they needed additional office space.
46 SENATE OFFICE SPACE

(The list referred to follows:)

George D. Aiken

Howard H. Baker, Jr.

E. L. Bartlett

Birch Bayh

Alan Bible

Daniel B. Brewster

Edward W. Brooke

Harry F. Byrd, Jr.

Robert C. Byrd

Clifford P. Case

Frank Church

Joseph S. Clark

John Sherman Cooper

Everett McKinley Dirksen

Thomas J. Dodd

Peter H. Dominick

Hiram L. Fong

J. W. Fulbright

Robert P. Griffin

Ernest Gruening

Fred R. Harris

Philip A. Hart

Vance Hartke

Mark 0. Hatfield

Spessard L. Holland

Ernest F. Hollings

Roman L. Hruska

Daniel K. Inouye

Henry M. Jackson

Jacob K. Jay-its

B. Everett Jordan

Len B. Jordan

Edward M. Kennedy

Robert F. Kennedy

Thomas H. Kuchel

Edward V. Long

Russell B. Long

Warren G. Magnuson

Eugene J. McCarthy

Gale W. McGee

George McGovern

Thomas J. McIntyre

Lee Metcalf

Jack Miller

A. S. Mike Monroney

Joseph M. Montoya

Wayne Morse

Frank E. Moss

Karl E. Mundt

George Murphy

Edmund S. Muskie

Gaylord Nelson

James B. Pearson

Claiborne Pell

Charles H. Percy

Winston L. Prouty

William Proxmire

Jennings Randolph

Abraham Ribicoff

Hugh Scott

George A. Smathers

John Sparkman

William B. Spong, Jr

John Stennis

Stuart Symington

Herman E. Talmadge

Strom Thurmond

Jahn G. Tower

Joseph D. Tydings

Harrison A. Williams, Jr.

Ralph Yarborough

Stephen M. Young

Senator JORDAN. And if there is no other person to be heard, this

subcommittee will adjourn, and I want to again thank the press for

being with us, and you are always welcome to any hearings that I

hold, and I am sure that goes for every committee on the Hill.

Thank you, gentlemen

'

again.

(Whereupon at 12:03 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned, subject to

the call of the Chair.)

0

‘I