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6 78 WINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING °"

GOVERNMENT

Storage HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

-UNITED STATES SENATE

NINETIETH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING TO BE AN

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

FEBRUARY 16, 1967

Printed for the use of the Committee on Armed Services

r,

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

76-785 WASHINGTON : 1967
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

RICHARD B.

JOHN STENNIS, Mississippi

STUART SYMINGvrON, Missouri

HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington

SAM J. ERVIN, JR., North Carolina

HOWARD W. CANNON, Nevada

ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia

STEPHEN M. YOUNG, Ohio

DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii

THOMAS J. McINTYRE, New Hampshire

DANIEL B. BREWSTER, Maryland

HARRY F. BYRD, JR., Virginia

WILLIAM H. DARDEN, Chief of Staff

CHARLES B. KIRBOW, Chief Clerk

RUSSELL, Georgia, Chairman

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine

STROM THURMOND, South Carolina

JACK MILLER, Iowa

J-0-1-IN G. TOWER, Texas

JAMES B. PEARSON, Kansas

PETER H. DOMINICK, Colorado
NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING TO BE AN

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 16, 1967

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30-a.m., in room 212,

Old Senate Office Building, Senator Richard B. Russell (chairman)

presiding.

Present: Senators Russell (presiding), Stennis, Symington, Jackson, Byrd of West Virginia, Young of Ohio, Byrd of Virginia, Smith,

Thurmond, Miller, and Tower.

Also present: William H. Darden, chief of staff; T. Edward Brasswell, Gordon A. Nease, professional staff members; Charles B. Kirbow, chief clerk, and Herbert S. Atkinson, assistant chief clerk.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

The fact that the committee has been enlarged to 18 members has

made it necessary to extend the committee table. The carpenter

shop in the Senate is working on the extension, but until it is finished

additional seating space has been improvised by adding a table to the

end of the committee table. The Chair apologizes to the members

for the inconvenience, and to the witness, too.

Mr. Phil G. Goulding of Maryland has been nominated to be an

Assistant Secretary of Defense vice Arthur Sylvester, resigned.

The office to which Mr. Goulding has been nominated is one that

calls for a personal appearance by the nominee under the precedents

of the committee.

Mr. Goulding has addressed a letter to the Chair indicating that

he owns no interest in any company doing business with the Department of Defense.

Mr. Goulding, we are glad to have you before the committee this

morning, and we congratulate you on your appointment.

If you will give us a brief oral summary of the biography that has

been furnished to the committee, committee members may then ask

such questions as they desire to propound.

(The nomination reference and report follows:)

NOMINATION REFERENCE AND REPORT

IN EXECUTIVE SESSION,

SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES,

January 11, 1967.

Ordered, That the following nomination be referred to the Committee on Armed Services:

Phil G. Goulding, of Maryland, to be an Assistant Secretary of Defense, vice Arthur Sylvester, resigned.

1
2 NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING

STATEMENT OF PHIL G. GOULDING, NOMINEE TO BE AN

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

Mr. GOULDING. Mr. Chairman, gentlemen, I was born in San

Francisco, Calif., the 28th of March 1921.

The first 10 years of my life I lived briefly here in Washington;

Baltimore, Md.; New York City; Evansville, Ind.; and St. Louis, Mo.

My family settled in Cleveland, Ohio, in 1931, when I was 10, in

Shaker Heights.

I went to the public schools in Shaker Heights. I graduated from

Shaker Heights High School, and attended Hamilton College, in

Clinton, N.Y., for 4 years. I was graduated from Hamilton with a

bachelor of science degree in 1943.

I then joined the Navy, where I served until 1946. Then I went

back to Cleveland and went to work for the Cleveland Plain Dealer

as a reporter. After 3 years in Cleveland, I was transferred to the

Washington Bureau, in 1950.

I spent the next 7 or 8 years covering chiefly Congress and politics,

including politics in Ohio, and in presidential election years the

presidential conventions and campaigns.

In 1957 and 1958 I shifted to military affairs and between 1957

and April of 1965 I spent almost all of my time covering military

affairs, except for presidential conventions and presidential campaigns. That duty included trips either to NATO installations or

to the Far East or both, every year from 1957 until 1965, as well as

a good many trips around this country, covering defense installations

in the United States.

In April of 1965, Mr. McNamara, Mr. Vance, and Arthur Sylvester

asked me to join Arthur as his Deputy. I have since that time been

Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs.

I live in Bethesda. I am married to the former Anne Wright of

Cleveland, and have five children.

I believe that is a short summary, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Smith.

Senator SMITH. I don't have any questions, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Stennis.

Senator STENNIS. I thought maybe the chairman had some questions.

Chairman RUSSELL. I will have some later on.

Senator STENNIS. I would like Mr. Goulding to make a statement

as to what his concept of his duties are. As you see it, what will be

your duties?

Mr. GOULDING. I think, Senator, my primary duty and responsibility is to expedite to the American people the fullest possible flow

of news—as rapidly as possible, and as accurately as possible, consistent with national security.

Senator STENNIS. Do you include the Congress in "the American

people?"

Mr. GOULDING. I do, indeed, sir.

Senator STENNIS. What about your duties toward the Congress?

Mr. GOULDING. I would include them, certainly, among the American people, and very high among the American people, as far as informing them is concerned.

Senator STENNIS. I don't mean that critically at all; but what is

your idea about a special duty to actively cooperate with Members
NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING

of the Congress, especially the Armed Services Committees of the two

Houses, with reference to matters they want to know about?

I think you have something to do with setting the tone of affairs

over there in that respect. I imagine your office does.

What is your idea about that?

Mr. GOULDING. As you know, Senator, there was a time, I guess

Fred Seaton was the last one, when this job was Assistant Secretary

for Public and Legislative Affairs. That latter function, as you

know, is divorced from it. Mr. Stempler is now the Secretary's

Assistant for Legislative Affairs. We work very closely with Mr.

Stempler. We will, I hope, be responsive to requests from Congress

just as rapidly as we can. I believe his office, rather than ours, is

the primary point of contact, and I think it should be.

Senator STENNIS. Your position is that he and his group are primarily responsible to the Congress.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. And you defer to him, then, on these matters.

Is he an Assistant Secretary?

Mr. GOULDING. He is not an Assistant Secretary, sir.

Senator STENNIS. So you have really more of a position of authority

than he hap.

Mr. GOULDING. In the area of public affairs, yes.

Senator STENNIS. But you are going to delegate that authority

you have to him—is that right?

Mr. GOULDING. I am not Mr. Stempler's superior. I think the

Secretary has delegated it to him.

Senator STENNIS. But anyway, as far as you are concerned, we are

to look primarily to him rather than to you?

Mr. GOULDING. I would think SO, yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. Is that your position?

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. That is fair enough.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Young.

Senator YOUNG of Ohio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a strong prejudice in connection with this nomination for the

reason that Phil and I have lived in Shaker Heights together and Phil

has been a close personal friend of mine for many years.

I respect and admire him for his fine work as a newspaper correspondent for the Plain Dealer in Cleveland, which is one of the great

newspapers in our country—or was before Phil left it.

I hold him in high admiration.

I believe he is an excellent public servant.

I am very glad he was nominated, and I will be glad to see him confirmed by unanimous vote.

I wish him Godspeed and happy landings in his job.

And I don't think he will keep anything from us on the Armed

Services Committee. I have enough confidence in him to know that

he will deal fairly and completely with us to the extent of his authority.

That is all I have to say.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Thurmond.

Senator THURMOND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Goulding, I just have a couple of questions.

You are succeeding Mr. Sylvester, I believe.
4 NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Senator THURMOND. Just what responsibilities are you going to

assume that he did not assume or that he did assume. Do you have

the exact same duties?

Mr. GOULDING. I have the exact same duties—I am operating under

the same charter that Mr. Sylvester was operating under, sir. The

job is the same job.

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Sylvester made a speech in New York

several years ago in which he said the Government had the right to

lie to protect itself. I was not in accord with that statement. My

judgment is that an official of the Government does not have to say

anything, but if he does make a statement, it ought to be the truth.

I think the people ought to be able to rely on what the people in the

Government say as being the truth.

I just wonder how you feel about this.

Mr. GOULDING. I was still a reporter, Senator, when Mr. Sylvester

made the New York speech.

Senator THURMOND. I am not asking you to comment on what he

said or did now, but I am asking you your opinion, in your position—

is it going to be your purpose that when you make a statement, it shall

be the truth?

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Senator THURMOND. The next thing I want to ask you is this. I

realize you will be working under Secretary McNamara, and you have

to carry out his orders, and I think you should.

On the other hand, when you come before Congress, I think you

ought to be perfectly frank, you ought to be completely truthful,

and you should not try to hide anything if questions are propounded

to you about anything pertaining to your duties or of which you have

knowledge in the Defense Department.

I would like to know what view or position you would take on

these matters.

Do you expect to be perfectly frank with the Congress and give

us the unvarnished truth in response to questions that may be propounded to you by Members of the Congress?

• Mr GOULDING. I do, indeed, sir. In fact, aside from my own

feelings, I believe I am under instructions from the Secretary of

Defense to do so.

• Senator THURMOND. The Secretary of Defense has instructed you

to do that?

Mr. GOULDING. The Secretary of Defense has instructed all Defense

Department witnesses appearing before Congress to be fully responsive to the questions, sir.

Senator THURMOND. Is that instruction in writing or an oral

instruction? .

Mr. GOULDING. I believe it is m writing, sir.

Senator THURMOND. Would you get a copy of that and put it in

the record?

Mr. GOULDING. Certainly.

(The information referred to follows:
NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING 5

DECEMBER 24, 1966

NUMBER 5400.4

ATS D (LA)

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE DIRECTIVE

Subject: Provision of Information to Congress

Refs.: (a) DoD Directive 5122.5, "ASD (Public Affairs)," July 10, 1961

(b) DoD Directive 5200.1, "Safeguarding Official Information in the interests of the Defense of the United States," July 8, 1957

(c) DoD Directive 5200.6, "Policy Governing the Custody, Use and

Preservation of Department of Defense Official Information Which

Requires Protection in the Public Interest," March 22, 1957

(d) DoD Directive 5015.1, "Release and Authentication of Copies of

Official Records," July 31, 1952

(e) DoD Instruction 5210.47, "Security Classification of Official Information," December 31, 1964

(f) DoD Directive 5500.1, "Preparation and Processing of Legislation,

Executive Orders Proclamations and Reports, and Comments

Thereon," May 21, 1964

(g) DoD Directive 5148.5, "Assistant to the Secretary of Defense (Legislative Affairs)," November 13, 1961

(h) DoD Directive 5400.4, subject as above, March 22, 1957 (hereby

cancelled)

(i) DepSecDef multi-DoD memorandum "Replies to Congressional

Correspondence," August 30, 1965 (hereby cancelled)

I. REISSUANCE AND PURPOSE

This Directive reissues reference (h) to incorporate provisions of reference (i)

and update Department of Defense policies and procedures governing furnishing

information, both classified and unclassified, to Congress. References (h) and

(i) are hereby superseded and cancelled.

II. APPLICABILITY AND SCOPE

A. The provisions of this Directive apply to all DoD Components.

B. Its provisions do not cover processing of legislation covered by reference (f)

nor matters related to appropriations which fall under the cognizance of the

ASD (Comptroller).

III. POLICY

It is essential to the proper functioning of the United States Government that

Congress receive adequate information concerning all Government programs

and operations.

A. In accordance with the DoD policy of making maximum information concerning its operations and activities available to both Government officials and

the public in general, all DoD Components will:

1. make maximum information available promptly to, and cooperate

fully with Members of Congress and Congressional Committees and their

staffs; and

2. answer constituents' letters to Members of Congress as fully as possible,

subject to the following limitations and provision of subsection IV.C., below:

a. classification of official information in the interests of national

defense, pursuant to Executive Order 10501 and the Atomic Energy

Act, as amended (references (b) and (e)); and

b. restrictions on official information which, in the best interests of

the public as a whole, should not be given general circulation (see DoD

Directives 5200.6 and 5015.1 (references (c) and (d)).

B. Information not available to the public (see paragraph III.A.2., above)

will be made available to Congress, in confidence, in accordance with paragraph

IV.B.2., below.

IV. FURNISHING INFORMATION TO CONGRESS

A. General

1. DoD personnel testifying as witnesses before Congressional Committees, or handling requests from Congress shall bear in mind the need
NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING

to protect certain types of information for public disclosure (reference (b),

(c), (d) and (e)).

a. If the testimony is to be submitted in writing, it should contain

an over-all classification to designate the security protection necessary.

(reference (e)).

b. If the testimony is to be given orally, the Congressional Committee

concerned shall be advised, in advance, of the security classification and

the need for protecting the sensitive portions from public disclosure.

2. Procedures of Congressional Committees with respect to preparation

and delivery of prepared statements shall be complied with to the maximum

extent possible. When a written statement is used by a DoD witness the

statement will be submitted to the Committee in advance of the appearance

as provided for by the rules of that Committee.

B. Security Procedures

1. To insure military security, testimony concerning information requiring security protection shall be given only in closed sessions. Transcripts

of such testimony may be released for publication only after they have been

reviewed and cleared by the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs)

or his designee and approved for release by the Chairman of the Congressional

Committee which held the hearing.

a. All such transcripts shall be reviewed for security, proof read, and

corrected by the witness prior to being forwarded to the OASD (PA).

b. Written statements, charts, and other material prepared in advance

for use before Congressional Committees shall be submitted to the

OASD (PA) for review as far in advance of the scheduled presentation

as possible.

c. All DoD Components shall, on request, provide prompt and full

guidance and assistance to the OASD (PA) in the review of material

related to their sphere of responsibility.

2. In the rare case where there is a question as to whether particular information may be furnished to a Member or Committee of Congress, even in

confidence, it will normally be possible to satisfy the request through some

alternate means acceptable to both the requestor and the DoD. In the event

that an alternate reply is not acceptable, no final refusal to furnish such

information shall be made, except with the express approval of the Head of

the DoD Component concerned, or of the Secretary of Defense. The Assistant to the Secretary of Defense (Legislative Affairs) shall be informed of any

such submissions to the Head of a DoD Component or to the Secretary of

Defense.

C. Information Requested for Constituents. Information requested by Members

of Congress for their constituents shall be tested for limitations on dissemination

(see paragraph III.A.2., above)and handled in the same manner as if the Constituent himself had written directly to the DoD; if it develops that the information

cannot be released the Member requesting the information shall be advised

promptly of that fact and of the reasons for the determination.

D. Congressional Investigations

1. The Assistant to the Secretary of Defense (Legislative Affairs) has been

assigned over-all responsibility (reference (g)) for assuring compliance with

the policies and procedures governing legislative investigations of DoD

activities, including liaison with Congress, and, in connection therewith,

keeping appropriate DoD personnel currently informed on the status of such

investigations (except for those affecting budgets and appropriations, and

related to financial matters).

2. DoD Components shall furnish information copies of all direct written

communications to and from Congress with respect to such investigations to

the ATSD(LA).

V. HANDLING OF CONGRESSIONAL REQUESTS

A. General

1. Replies to all Congressional inquiries and requests shall be completely

responsive and handled as expeditiously as possible. Should it become

evident that a response to a request will be unduly delayed an interim reply

should be made. The interim reply will indicate the steps being taken to

obtain the information requested.

2. To facilitate prompt and adequate response to Congressional requests

it is preferred that the requests be written and specify in detail the particular
NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING 7

information or documetts desired. However, oral requests which are

sufficiently specific to permit prompt and adequate response should be

accepted.

B. Written Requests addressed to the Secretary of Defense or Deputy Secretary of

Defense. Complete replies to Congressional correspondence addressed to the

Secretary of Defense or Deputy Secretary of Defense shall be provided within

five (5) working days of their receipt whenever possible; those of an urgent nature

shall be answered more expeditiously, as appropriate.

1. If the information requested is not readily accessible or of Such volume

or complexity as to prohibit preparation of a complete reply within the fiveday time limit, the requestor shall be advised, via an immediate interim

reply, of a date by which the information will be supplied.

•2. The Assistant Secretary of Defense (Administration), or his designee

for the purpose shall be provided with the estimated completion date and

an adequate explanation of the delay.

C. Public Releases. Replies to Congressional inquiries which may result in

release d • information which has significant public affairs implication will be

coordinated in advance with OASD (PA) as required by reference (a).

VI. EFFECTIVE DATE AND IMPLEMENTATION

This Directive is effective immediately. Two (2) copies of implementing

documents shall be forwarded to the ASD(PA) and ATSD(LA) within sixty (60)

days.

CYRUS VANCE,

Deputy Secretary of Defense.

EXTRACT FROM TRANSCRIPT 1 OF NEWS CONFERENCE

Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, February 2, 1961

"I have stated to the staff of the Office of the Secretary of Defense, to the

Service Secretaries, and to the Joint Chiefs, my philosophy in management, and

it is this: that (a) during the development of policies relating to the Defense

Department, I expect full and open discussion within the Department by all

leaders of the Department, military and civilian, without regard to whether their

views conform to those of others in the Department, including my own; (b) that

once a decision has been reached and a policy established representing the decision

of the President, or other appropriate authorities, that all members of the Department, civilian and military, will be expected to support that decision, publicly

and otherwise; (c) that when I say that they are expected to support it publicly,

I do not mean that they should not express their opinions, particularly their

disagreements, relating to policies, if queried by appropriate agencies of Congress;

(d) there are additional provisions provided for in the Reorganization Act which

permit the Service Secretaries, the three Service Secretaries, and the Joint Chiefs,

to report to appropriate Congressional agencies their disagreement with specific

policies of the Defense Department if, in their opinion, these policies do not permit

them to carry out their responsibilities. I think that perhaps covers the question."

Hon. RICHARD B. RUSSELL,

United States Senate.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: I have your letter of May 29, 1963, concerning congressional testimony by members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Let me assure you that my position in this regard remains as it was when I

first appeared before you more than two years ago. Congress is entitled to the

full and frank views of the Chiefs and all other military and civilian personnel

of the Department.

The method by which this objective is accomplished is, I believe, spelled out

in existing law and policy. First, under the National Security Act, the Secretaries

of the Military Departments and the members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are

entitled to present to the Congress on their own initiative any recommendations

JUNE 11, 1963.

NOTE.—Publie Affairs Guidance No. 16, dated 3 February 1961 directed the attention of the Secretaries of the Military Departments and the Commanders-in-Chief of the Unified and Specified Commands

to this portion of the transcript, which was inclosed as a part of this Guidance.

76-785-67--2
8 NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING

relating to the Department of Defense that they may deem proper provided they

first so inform the Secretary of Defense. I, of course, support the policy expressed

in this statutory provision. I also support the long-standing policy of the Department that, except as provided in the National Security Act, military and

civilian personnel of the Department should not volunteer pronouncements at

variance with established policy. On the other hand, when queried by appropriate agencies of Congress, they certainly should express their opinion on matters

within their areas of competence even if this opinion is in disagreement with

established policy.

I believe these standards provide a proper accommodation of the need for

effective management of the Department and the desire of Congress to be informed of differing viewpoints which may exist within the Department. Further,

I believe that officials of this Department, military and civilian, have in general

adhered to these standards. During my term as Secretary of Defense no adverse

action whatever has been taken against any official for so acting and, as long as

I am Secretary of Defense, none will be.

Sincerely,

ROBERT S. MCNAMARA.

Senator THURMOND. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Symington.

Senator SYMINGTON. Mr. Goulding, do you know when the report

I made of my trip will be declassified?

Mr. GOULDING. No, sir, I don't.

Senator SYMINGTON. I think you have had it about a week.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Senator SYMINGTON. Well, would you care to estimate when it

will be?

Mr. GOULDING. I will be glad to check with our security review

people, Senator, and get in touch with you.

Senator SYMINGTON. When do you think it will be?

Mr. GOULDING. I just simply don't know, sir. I have not followed

it since I sent it down to them with a note to get it through as quickly

as possible.

Senator SYMINGTON. Thank you. I have no further questions,

Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Jackson.

Senator JACKSON. Mr. Chairman I have had an opportunity to

take up a couple of matters with Mr. Goulding and found him to be

very helpful and very forthright and frank. I am sure he will do a

good job.

I have no questions.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Miller.

Senator MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Goulding, I was pleased with 3iour responses to Senator Thurmond. I would like to clarify one thing, however.

As I detect it, your position would be flak rather than give erroneous information, you would just withhold information.

Mr. GOULDING. Well, I certainly would not want to give—you are

talking about the right to lie?

Senator MILLER. In other words, as I understand your response 

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir. I do not believe the Government should

ever put out erroneous information.

Senator MILLER. If a question came up with respect to the release

of information, your position would be that you would under no

circumstances release erroneous information and that if it was in the

national security you would simply not release the information.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir. I believe, since Mr. Sylvester's name

was brought up—I think when he was testifying before the Fulbright
NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING 9

committee last year, this was the position that he very clearly stated—

that he thought no Government official ever had the right to lie,

but that every Government official had a responsibility to safeguard

the national interests.

Senator MILLER. Now, I don't think that there is any concern about

the withholding of information in the interest of national security.

But I detect that there is concern where the public does not know

that there is not full information being given because of national

security interests. What I am getting at is this:

Suppose a release is made on, let's say, the number of aircraft losses,

and the release covers only some of the aircraft losses. Now, that

would be a truthful release insofar as the particular losses were concerned, but it might not reveal whether or not there was additional

information that was not being made available in the, interest of

national security. Would it be your position that you should let it

be known that this is accurate information that is being released, but

other information is not being released, so that those who receive

the news know that not all of the information is being made available,

rather than just going along, not realizing that not all information is

being made available.

Mr. GOULDING. I do, indeed, sir. And if I may, I would like to

address myself to this particular case, because I am familiar with it.

Senator MILLER. Before you address yourself to that case—do I

understand that your position would be that you would let it be known

that not all information is being made available?

Mr. GOULDING. My position is that if we did not do that, we would

be deliberately misleading the people, and that I would be a thousand

percent opposed to. Yes, sir, that's my position.

Senator MILLER. Now, if you want to address yourself to that case,

I would appreciate it.

Mr. GOULDING. If you are interested, sir, I would, indeed.

The tabulations that have been put out at MACV on aircraft

losses for the last year and a half or so have been put out as fixedwing aircraft lost to hostile action—combat-type aircraft lost to hostile

action over North Vietnam, and combat-type aircraft lost to hostile

action over South Vietnam. The totals have been very carefully

kept.

In addition to those tabulated announcements they have made at

MACV in Saigon on a day-to-day basis, announcements of individual

aircraft shot down. They will say a C-123 was lost today, or two

C-47's were destroyed by mortar fire, et cetera.

Now, those have not been put out in tabulated form. And nobody

asks for them in tabulated form. I don't think this is a matter of

security at all. It is just a matter of request.

The MACV people—and I talked to them—estimate that 80

percent of the losses other than the tabulated announcements have

been announced on a plane-by-plane basis. So we did not suddenly

disclose a new group of aircraft losses. There are a small percentage

of classified operations which have not been announced before.

Senator MILLER. May I say it was my understanding that is

precisely what was done and I have so stated when I have been asked

by members of the press to comment on it. But don't you think it

might have been a little better, when the tabulations were issued on

the fixed-wing aircraft lost to hostile fire, if perhaps the comment had
10 NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING

been added that this does not include other plane losses which have

been given day-to-day releases on?

Mr. GOULDING. Indeed it would have been better. And as of now

we are announcing not only the losses to hostile action, but all losses

in southeast Asia, either rotary wing or fixed wing, due to any cause

whatever.

Senator MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Goulding.

No further questions.

Chairman RUSSELL. I hope you make it perfectly clear how the

loss occurred. Personally, I have no criticism of the Department of

Defense. They issue these statements periodically, telling the number

of planes and helicopters being blow up by sabotage, for example, in

the airfield. They did not appear in the combat losses.

Mr. GOULDING. That is right, sir.

Chairman RUSSELL. Because they were supposed to be on a

mission if it was a combat loss.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Chairman RUSSELL. If you are going to issue them all together,

I hope you will have two lists.

Mr. GOULDING. We are going to continue the same list—

Chairman RUSSELL. Those lost in combat, and those lost due to

accidents or miscalculations of the pilot, sabotage on the airfield.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Chairman RUSSELL. And how it happened. Our losses are bad

enough over there as it is. Apparently these people have very

effective antiaircraft fire. But it looks worse than it really is just to

lump them all together.

Mr. GOULDING. I agree, sir.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Byrd.

Senator BYRD of Virginia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, I

would like to say that everything I have heard about Mr. Goulding has

been very favorable. The newspapermen with whom I have disscussed Mr. Goulding's qualifications are very high in his praise. I

have been impressed, too, with his frank response to Senator Thurmond and to Senator Miller and to other members of the committee.

What I am going to say has nothing to do with you as an individual

Mr. Goulding, but I must say that I have not had complete confidence

in the information that I have received from the Department of

Defense over the past year. I have the feeling that the information

is submitted in a form calculated to be most helpful to the Department rather than presenting accurately and frankly the information—

the actual information.

I gather from your testimony today that you will seek to see that

the American people and the Congress are given actual and full and

frank information, even though it may be detrimental to the Secretary

of Defense, or other high-ranking officials in the Department.

Mr. GOULDING. I will, indeed, sir. I think we are too slow in the

executive branch of Government to admit we have made an error when

we have made one. We are going to make errors. I am going to

make them, in my office, certainly. And I certainly hope that I

would admit them freely, and if the information you request discloses

an error that has been made, I hope that it gets disclosed and that we

get it behind us and get on to the new business.

Senator BYRD of Virginia. I think all of us make errors. Certainly

Senators make a lot of errors.
NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING 11

Now, in regard to classification of information. At the present time

would the number of American ships carrying military supplies to

South Vietnam—either awaiting to be unloaded at the docks in

South Vietnam or just offshore—be considered classified information?

Mr. GOULDING. No, sir, it is not. We are not in the classification

business. We have no authority to classify or to declassify in our

office. But I do have knowledge that that information is not

classified.

Senator BYRD of Virginia. In other words, the number of American

ships waiting to be unloaded, or which are now unloading military

supplies for our men in South Vietnam, is not classified information?

Mr. GOULDING. No, sir. You should be able to get the number at

the docks; the number, if any, that are in the ports waiting to get to

the docks, and the number that are offshore in the Philippines or in

holding areas waiting to get there. There is no reason whatever—in

fact, we put them out, sir.

Senator BYRD of Virginia. Now, what about enemy ships or ships

flying the flag of United Nations members which are unloading cargo

and taking cargo out of the Port of Haiphong. Is that classified

information?

Mr. GOULDING. I simply don't know the answer to that, Senator.

I would assume—and this is just an assumption—I would assume

that since it is information we could only get from intelligence sources

that it would be classified information. This would be a matter for

the Defense Intelligence Agency.

Senator BYRD of Virginia. In other words, the number of ships

which are supplying the enemy—and the enemy knows, of course, when

those ships come into their own harbor—is classified information and

not available to the Congress or the American people. But the ships

carrying American supplies to American men in South Vietnam, which

the enemy presumably does not know about, and certainly not in the

detail that they know about those going into their own ports, is not

classified information and can be made available to the American

people and to the world and to the enemy.

Mr. GOULDING. Certainly the latter is true. Now, I simply do not

know and will have to look and furnish for the record, or for you, sir,

personally, whether the enemy ships are classified or not. I just don't

know. My assumption is since our information on it is purely from

intelligence sources that it probably is classified. But I just simply

do not know.

The reason for that, if it is, of course, is not that the enemy does not

know what ships are being brought in, because he does. The question

is what we reveal of our intelligence collection methods when we say

that we have this information.

But I really do not know the answer to your question, sir.

Senator BYRD of VIRGINIA. Would you either supply it for the

record or see that it gets to me?

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Senator MILLER. Would the Senator yield at that point? Can we

have the reasons, if it is classified—the reasons why such information

would be classified? Not only whether it is classified or not, but if it is

classified, then the rationale behind it.

Mr. GOULDING. I may be completely wrong. It might be free and

open information. I just simply do not know but I will be glad to

look into it, sir.
12 NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING

Senator MILLER. But it you find that it is classified, then I think to

be responsive to the Senator's point, if you could give us the rationale

why.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes sir.

Senator MILLER. Thank you.

Senator BYRD of Virginia. What about the number of tons of bombs

that are scheduled to be dropped on North and South Vietnam during

the year 1967?

Would that be classified information as of today?

Mr. GOULDING. I just don't know, Senator. I would have to look

at it and see.

Senator BYRD of Virginia. I raise these two questions because, to

some extent, they substantiate my view expressed earlier that the

Department in the past—and again I will emphasize it has nothing to 

do with you, since you were not involved—has put out the figures and

the statistics which put the Department in the best possible light,

even though they may not be factually and completely accurate, and

even though they may involve national security.

Several months ago—on April 15—the Washington Post published

statements by Mr. McNamara and by Mr. Vance, and one of the

statements was that during 1966 a total of 600,000 tons of bombs was

scheduled to be dropped on North and South Vietnam.

Now, it seems to me if anything is going to be classified, that would

be classified. I would be interested to know whether I could or

whether anybody else could ascertain today now many tons of bombs

we plan to drop during 1967 on North and South Vietnam. This

press conference was held a year ago because the Defense Department had been attacked by the Republican leadership in the House

for "shocking mismanagement," and they were trying to show it was

not mismanagement.

I am not saying whether it was or was not mismanagement. All

I am trying to et my mind clear on is when information should

properly be classified and when information is going to be classified

because it is to the advantage of the Department to classify it, or

declassified when it is to the advantage of the Department to

declassify it.

Mr. GOULDING. I understand, sir.

Senator BYRD of Virginia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Tower.

Senator TOWER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Goulding, as I understand it, then, you have no direct influence

over the determination of what will or will not be classified?

Mr. GOULDING. No, sir. I would not put it that way. We have

no authority to declassify or to classify.

Senator TOWER. You have no authority to classify or declassify?

Mr. GOULDING. That is correct, sir. I would not say we have no

influence.

Senator TOWER. In other words, you can make recommendations,

but you have no direct control or authority over what is either classified or declassified. And therefore it is incumbent upon you to release

only that which is not classified.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Senator TOWER. That is for the general public.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir. And I think we have another responsibility. It is incumbent upon me to take that which is classified, which
NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING 13

I personally think should not be, and then if it is the Defense Intelligence Agency, to talk to them, to get the pros and cons on it, and

make a recommendation to the Secretary of Defense that perhaps this

should be declassified.

Senator TOWER. Yes. But your personal opinion as to whether

something should or should not be classified, if it is either classified

or declassified, would not enter into any decision you would make to

release it. In other words, if it was declassified, it would not be

incumbent upon you to make a decision to withhold it.

Mr. GOULDING. That is right, sir.

Senator TOWER. And you do not determine the propriety yourself

of either classifying or declassifying something. That is again up to

someone that is not under your direct control or authority.

Mr. GOULDING. That is correct, sir.

Senator TOWER. Secondly—some things are classified for public

consumption, are they not, but not classified, let us say, for Members

of Congress, because relative to the question the distinguished Senator

from Virginia asked, I know as of Saturday how many ships of what

flags were in the ports of North Vietnam. I got this information

from the Navy. But this was not—it was classified at that time.

Now, whether it will be released later, I don't know.

Mr. GOULDIN9. It is still classified information but obviously

should be made available to Members of Congress in classified form.

Senator TOWER. Who are cleared on a need-to-know basis. So

actually this would be essentially the responsibility of the legislative

man in the Department who would probably be the liaison with

Congress on such matters.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir; that would be.

Senator TOWER. Because your job is primarily dealing with the

public.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Senator TOWER. Mr. Chairman, I would simply like to say I have

known Mr. Goulding for some time. He happens to be a neighbor of

mine out in the low-rent district. As a matter of fact, his children

know mine. I have dealt with him on two or three occasions and I

found him to be always very candid and cooperative. I might note

also in his official capacity Mr. Goulding has traveled in Vietnam and

understands something of the situation there. I think he is eminently

qualified by virtue of his background as a newspaper man obligated

to give the public the information they have a right to have, to serve

in this capacity. And I want to heartily endorse his confirmation.

(The information requested by Senator Byrd, Junior, of Virginia,

follows:)

FEBRUARY 20, 1967.

Hon. HARRY F. BYRD, Jr.,

U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR SENATOR BYRD: This is in response to your questions put to me Thursday, February 16, at my confirmation hearing, regarding ships arriving in North

Vietnam.

I am informed by the Defense Intelligence Agency that the United States does

have information on total shipping of this nature. I am further informed that

individual identification of the ships, whether Free World or Communist, is classified information. The Defense Intelligence Agency also tells me that a numerical

breakdown of Communist shipping is classified but that a similar breakdown of

Free World shipping is not.

I am, of course, in total agreement with you that the disclosure of this information would be giving the enemy no information which it does not already have
I

14 NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING

about shipping arriving in North Vietnam. The problem, as I suggested during

the hearing, is that such disclosure could give the enemy knowledge of U.S. intelligence collection techniques and capabilities.

May I suggest that my Military Assistant, Brigadier General David I. Liebman, brief you on the reasoning applicable to this problem. This could be done in

your office at your convenience. If this is satisfactory to you, your people could

call either General Liebman or me to arrange a time.

Sincerely,

PHIL G. GOULDING,

Assistant Secretary of Defense

(Public Affairs)-Designate.

Chairman RUSSELL. The Chair offers for the record a biographical

sketch furnished the committee by Mr. Goulding. Either through inadvertence or excess modesty he did not advise the committee that

he served in both the European theater and the Pacific theater during

World War II.

Senator TOWER. Mr. Chairman he was the commanding officer of

precisely the same type of ship that I was a boatswain's mate on.

(The biographical data follows:)

PHIL G. GOULDING

Born: March 28, 1921, in San Francisco, California.

Marital Status: Married to Anne C. (Wright) Goulding; three sons: Barry

W.,16; Kent A., 14; Philip L., 7; and two daughters: Laura D., 12; and Nancy

N., 9.

Education: B.S., Hamilton College, Clinton, New York, 1943. Ensign, U.S.

Naval Reserve Midshipmen's School, Columbia University, 1943.

Positions Held: January 1947—June 1950: City Reporting Staff, Cleveland

Plain Dealer, Cleveland, Ohio.

June 1950—April 1965: Newspaper Correspondent, Washington Bureau, Cleveland Plain Dealer, Wahington, D.C.

(Washington Military Correspondent 1957-1965).

April 1965—to date: Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense

(Public Affairs).

Military Service: November 24, 1943: Commissioned Ensign, USNR.

January 1944-1945: U.S. Amphibious Forces, European

Theater.

1945—June 1946: Commanding Officer, Landing Craft Support Ship III, Pacific Theater.

June 21, 1946: Released from active duty.

Organizations: Member, Episcopalian Church.

Member National Press Club.

Former Member, Aviation/Space Writers Association.

Address: 7210 Glenbrook Road, Bethesda, Maryland.

Chairman RUSSELL. Any other questions of Mr. Goulding?

If not, we are glad to have had you here, Mr. Goulding.

Mr. GOULDING. Thank you very much.

Senator STENNIS. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, I have one matter to

discuss, if I may, please.

Chairman RUSSELL. Very well.

Senator STENNIS. I just wanted to be specific on one thing—about

the reports that the Preparedness Subcommittee sends over for clearance. I don't know whether you have handled any of those or not.

I know you have a great volume of work over there, as well as a lot

of speeches that generals make, which have to be passed on in a hurry

and given to them, and also many other things to pass on.

But when these reports are received, they already represent the

work of competent staff members, some of which have been with the

subcommittee 15 years. They represent the work of several Senators,
NOMINATION OF PHIL G. GOULDING 15

some of whom have been here a great number of years, and represent

tedious work, and are as complete as we can make it.

Under those facts and circumstances don't you think that those

reports—and the same thing would apply to the House, of course—

are entitled to some priority of time, and should be moved along as

fast as possible?

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir. I think they should be handled as expeditiously as we can handle them.

Senator STENNIS. Will you do that?

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. And then on matters that you feel cannot be

approved, will you take it up with us immediately and let us discuss

it with your men.

Mr. GOULDING. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. We have made a good start, I think. I hope we

can get along fine. We certainly will carry on our end of it.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. Anything further?

If not, we thank you, Mr. Goulding.

Mr. GOULDING. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. The committee will now proceed to executive

business.

(Whereupon, at 11:05 a.m. the session was concluded and the

committee proceeded in executive session.)

(The nomination of Mr. Goulding to be an Assistant Secretary of

Defense was subsequently approved by the committee in executive

session and confirmed by the Senate on February 17, 1967.)

0