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HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON

SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

FEBRUARY 10, 15, APRIL 20, MAY 10,

AND AUGUST 15, 1961

[No. 22]

Printed for the use of the Committee on Science and Astronautics

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

75816 WASHINGTON: 1961

eAN,
COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS

GEORGE P. MILLER, California, Chairman

OLIN E. TEAGUE, Texas

VICTOR L. ANFUSO, New York

JOSEPH E. KARTH, Minnesota

KEN HECHLER, West Virginia

EMILIO Q. DADDARIO, Connecticut

WALTER H. MOELLER, Ohio

DAVID S. KING, Utah

J. EDWARD ROUSH, Indiana

THOMAS G. MORRIS, New Mexico

BOB CASEY, Texas

WILLIAM J. RANDALL, Missouri

JOHN W. DAVIS, Georgia

WILLIAM F. RYAN, New York

JAMES C. CORMAN, California

JOHN W. McCORMACK, Massachusetts

CHARLES F. DUCANDER, Executive Director and Chief Counsel

SPENCER M. BERESFORD, Special Counsel

PHILIP B. YEAGER, Special Consultant

JOHN A. CARSTA.RPHEN, Jr., Chief Clerk

FRANK R. HAMMILL, Jr., Counsel

RICHARD P. HINES, Staff Consultant

EARL G. PEA.COCK, Staff Consultant

RAYMOND WILCOVE, Staff Corstatant

C. OTIS FINCH, Assistant Clerk

JOSEPH M. FELTON, Dublications Clerk

JOSEPH W. MARTIN, JR., Massachusetts

JAMES G. FULTON, Pennsylvania

J. EDGAR CHENOWETH, Colorado

WILLIAM K. VAN PELT, Wisconsin

PERKINS BASS, New Hampshire

R. WALTER RIEHLMAN, New York

JESSICA McC. WEIS, New York

CHARLES A. MOSHER, Ohio

RICHARD L. ROUDEBUSH, Indiana

ALPHONZO BELL, California

THOMAS M. PELLY, Washington
/

CONTENTS

l'n et'

Organization meeting_ 1

Public organization 25

National Medal of Science 33

Action on Weis resolution 37

Committee action on expandable space structures 39

I I 1

MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

ORGANIZATION MEETING

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 1961

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met at 10 a.m., Hon. Overton Brooks (chairman)

presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

We are delighted to have so many of our members here this morning.

I recognize that we are meeting at a time when many of our members

have gone home to make speeches and also, the Republican members

of the committee have not been finally approved by the House of

Representatives.

But we were anxious to get started so after clearing the matter

with my colleague on my left, it was decided that we would go ahead

and have a meeting this morning and clear whatever we could in a

nonofficial meeting. And after that, when the members are duly

assigned by the Republican Members of the Congress, to the committee, we can take up whatever we discuss this morning and ratify

and confirm it.

Now, Mr. Ducander, is Mr. Carstarphen here?

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

I don't know exactly what you want to bring up, but I have the

agenda if you want to go through it.

The CHAIRMAN. We have a fair attendance.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, indeed, more than we expected.

The CHAIRMAN. I would think this, that we could call the roll.

Mr. DUCANDER. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Although it is an unofficial rollcall.

Mr. DUCANDER. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That would be the best way to start.

Now, there has been some talk of the lack of femininity in space,

and we are happy to have here a lady member to join with us in

space explorations that the committee has from time to time.

Mr. DUCANDER. Mr. Fulton, has raised this before, you know.

Mr. FULTON. We Republicans are smarter. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I have to admit, Jim, that you have your

eyes and mind attuned to the feminine sex.

Mr. MOELLER. Mr. Chairman, may I make a comment in reference

to Jim?

I think it is very commendable that Jim decided to come off a very

important committee to be with this committee.

1

(
2 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

The CHAIRMAN. I think so, too. He did give up a very important

committee.

Mr. MOELLER. I don't know about the others, but I happen to

know in Jim's case he gave up Foreign Affairs to be with us.

Mr. FULTON. May I say that I am very pleased to see Dave and

Joe are promoted up. [Laughter.]

Mr. MOELLER. It is a little heady atmosphere. We will take some

time to get used to it, Jim.

The CHAIRMAN. He is in the superstructure now.

We had a colleague, too, from the right of us here, a Democratic

colleague who was in distress for a few moments there, and he was

worried for fear he would lose a committee assignment he didn't

intend to lose.

Mr. DADDARIO. I had no such worry, Mr. Chairman. I knew my

rights.

The CHAIRMAN. Perkins Bass, too, has elected to stay on this

committee.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to present my colleague,

Mr. Corman, from California, who has joined us on this side.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you Californians now are getting organized.

I expect these Texas boys will follow suit here pretty quick.

First, we will call the roll.

Do you have the roll there?

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Yes, sir.

Chairman Brooks.

The CHAIRMAN. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Miller.

Mr. MILLER. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Teague.

Mr. TEAGUE. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Anfuso.

(No response.)

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Karth.

Mr. KARTH. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. HeeIller.

(No response.)

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Daddario.

Mr. DADDARIO. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Moeller.

Mr. MOELLER. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. King.

Mr. KING. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Morris.

Mr. MORRIS. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Casey.

(No response.)

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Randall.

Mr. RANDALL. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Davis.

Mr. DAVIS. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Ryan.

(No response.)

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. COrMall.

Mr. CORMAN. Here.
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Martin.

Mr. MARTIN. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Fulton.

Mr. FULTON. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Chenoweth

(No response.)

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Van Pelt.

Mr. VAN PELT. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Bass.

(No response.)

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Riehlman.

(No response.)

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mrs. Weis.

Mrs. WETS. Here.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Bell.

(No response.)

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Mr. Mosher.

(No response.)

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. And Mr. Roudebush.

(No response.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Carstarphen, do you have a copy of the agenda

that we proposed to use this morning?

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How many does that show are present?

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Fifteen, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Fifteen.

Mr. DUCANDER. Very good.

The CHAIRMAN. It is very good attendance, I think.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, indeed.

The CHAIRMAN. We have lost the majority leader on the committee,

who had to leave the committee assignment. But we still retain our

colleague, the former Speaker of the House of Representatives. And

we are delighted, Joe. And I understand you will be able to put in

even more time this year than you did last year on the committee.

Mr. MARTIN. I hope so.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, we have John Davis here. Where are you

from?

Mr. DAVIS. Georgia.

The CHAIRMAN. Georgia?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. A good deep South man with us.

And I think that covers all of our new members; doesn't it?

Mr. DUCANDER. Mrs. Weis.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, Mrs. Weis.

Mrs. WEIS. He has already paid me compliments.

Mr. DUCANDER. I see.

The CHAIRMAN. We recognized her.

Mr. MOELLER. Mr. Randall.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Randall; yes. I have seen Mr. Randall so

much in the last few days I almost think I have seen him more than

I have.

Well, we are delighted to have you all here.

The first thing that I think we ought to consider is the introduction,

first, of the staff. We have the same staff that we had last year.
4 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

Mr. Ducander, who was 10 years with Armed Services, has been

with us all the way through and has done an excellent job.

Mr. MARTIN. Have the members, as they are introduced, stand up.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I think that is an excellent idea. So, Mr.

Ducander, if you will, stand up there.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And take a bow.

I will say this, that I think we are fortunate to have such a good

staff director as Mr. Ducander there.

Mr. DUCANDER. Thank you, sir.

Mr. KING. Very good.

Mr. DUCANDER. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me tell you this: I wish, Doctor, if you could

get a copy of that trophy that we received last year in recognition of

the committee, the McNaught Trophy.

Mr. FULTON. We probably have it framed.

The CHAIRMAN. We do have it framed somewhere in the office here,

but some of the new members haven't seen it, and I want them to see it.

This committee, last year, won the award as "The Committee of

1960." And we had a formal presentation, with television, movie and

with still pictures. And I think it got excellent publicity for the entire

committee all other the country.

Now, we can't hope to be the Committee of the Year every year,

but we will do our best to be there.

That was due in no no small part to the fact that Mr. Ducander,

who had 10 years' background experience handling committee work,

was able to pitch in early and keep everything going at top speed the

entire Congress.

Now, the next member on the committee staff is Dr. Sheldon.

Doctor, would you stand up, sir?

Dr. Sheldon comes to you from the Library of Congress. The

Library of Congress loaned Dr. Sheldon to the select committee, which

was headed by Mr. McCormack, and then when the select committee

closed out, we were able to persuade him to remain with the committee.

He has been on loan from the Library of Congress for some time, but

to the point where we think we finally captured him. And he has

done a great job.

Now, next on the staff we have Mr. Carstarphen, who is our committee clerk. Will you stand up, Mr. Carstarphen?

Mr. Carstarphen has been handling the clerk's work about a year

and a half, and knows the administrative work of the committee from

top to bottom.

Now, will the other members of the staff please stand up? Then

we can introduce each one.

There is Ray Wilcove.

Mr. DUCANDER. Mr. Yeager, Mr. Wilcove, Mr. Hines, Captain

Silberstein, Mr. Beresford, Mr. Leff, and Mr. Hammill.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Beresford, I want to say, came to us from the

Library of Congress, also. He is an attorney by background, but also

has technical experience, and had a very high rating in the Library of

Congress. He has done an excellent job, not only for the committee

but he did an excellent job for the Library of Congress.

Now, Mr. Wilcove, over there, was with the UP when the UPI was

palled UP. He has 16 years' experience and background work with
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 5

the United Press. He then went with the Armed Services Committee,

where he was a member of the staff for several years, and then came

to us.

He is in charge of our public relations and is doing an able job.

Dick Hines, there, is from Massachusetts. Dick has taken over

general committee investigating work. He is very active, has a terrific amount of energy and a good personality. And we got him also

from the select committee of the Congress, there, the Select Committee on Space.

Phil Yeager, by the way, came to us from Illinois. But Phil has

so many degrees that you can't write them on your arm there; a

wonderful, well-educated person, with a writer's background.

I think you are a lawyer by occupation, however, aren't you?

Mr. YEAGER. Avocation.

The CHAIRMAN. Last year he did marvelous work, really, for the

committee on our reports.

And, by the way, this committee issued—how many reports last

year, Mr. Ducander?

Mr. DUCANDER. I think it was 45, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you read the record there of what this committee has done?

Captain Silberstein—and we certainly don't want to overlook him—

comes to us by loan from the Navy. I don't think we could go out

and pick up a man like Captain Silberstein from civilian life. But

the Navy agreed to send us one of their top men on loan for a year.

That is how long he is going to be here. After the end of the year,

why, he will have to go back to the Navy. Although we may try

to pull a rabbit's foot and keep him on longer. He is doing a great

job there. And if you notice a little bit of reference to nautical

terms, you will know the Captain has had some part in writing them.

And we have a representative here from the Public Printer's Office,

who is with us all the time. He has an office here. And he has

really lightened the load of the committee staff. But you are really

still on the payroll of the Public Printer, aren't you?

Mr. LEFF. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. We claim him over here because he spends all of

his, time. That is how active the committee is, that he has to put

in all of his time on the committee in the last year and a half. We

want you here as long as we can keep you.

Mr. LEFF. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, who did I miss there?

Mr. DUCANDER. Mr. Hammill.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes; Mr. Hammill, surely. And Mr. Hammill

comes to us from the Pentagon.

What was your position, Mr. Hammill, there?

Mr. HAMMILL. I was with the General Counsel's Office sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He was in the General Counsel's Office for the

Secretary of Defense.

Mr. HAMMILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And we found he had such a wonderful record over

there and was doing such a great job that we tried to persuade him to

,come over here. And we have done that.

Now he is doing a fine job and we want to keep him.

Frankly, I think we have the best staff there is on Capitol Hill.

75816-61---2
6 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

Now, I wouldn't want you to go and tell these other committees that, but I do believe we have it.

Now do you have the record?

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Read that summary there, Mr. Ducander.

Mr. DUCANDER. Well, I have here:

We held 119 hearings. We took 1,050,000 words of testimony; 2,100 pages of printed hearings. We conducted 57 investigations, issued 46 reports, heard 658 witnesses.

Is there anything further you would like to have, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. No, I think that covers it pretty well. Now, you have the certificate that we obtained last year? Mr. DUCANDER. Yes. I think it has been circulating here, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. It is being circulated among the members. The CHAIRMAN. That is just what we wanted, just to circulate it around so the new members of the committee can see what the com- mittee has done in the past.

I thought at this time we could have a general résumé of what the committee expects to do in the next 2 months.

Now, Mr. Ducander, as staff director of the committee, I would like for you to open that subject up and after you have given the committee a general résumé of what you think should be ahead of us

as a recommendation for the committee, then you can turn it over to your staff members.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir. During the adjournment we asked the staff to go into the background of various subjects that we thought would be of interest to the committee and to the country.

Now, these studies are all completed. We are ready with witnesses

any time that the committee is ready to go. Some of these studies

are as follows:

Weather reconnaissance and communications satellites: That is the participation of the Government and private industry. Now, this is A.T. & T. that were down here the other day. Investigation of foreign-based equatorial launch sites: That is the mobile sea launch versus the land-based sea launch. Project Rover, which is the nuclear engine, and AEC versus NASA,

or the combination of both, and the trouble that has developed be- tween the two.

We have an investigation of the Air Force's interest in a 3-man

space vehicle. That is Project Apollo. Now, NASA is doing this, and so is the Air Force. So we have had a staff member look into why they are both doing it at the same time?

Mr. Yeager has completed a study of research and development in saline water. This was an extensive study that took months. He went all over the United States, out to the west coast and went to Europe and talked to people over there. And we have a very very fine report on that. And we can have further hearings on it, to develop it.

Mr. Hines has completed a study of research and development in the Arctic and the Antarctic, and we are prepared to go to hearings

on that any time the committee is ready.

Mr. Hines has also completed a study of the satellite intercept capabilities: What are we going to do with the satellites that the
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 7

Russians send over, and do we have any capabilities to intercept

them? Now, we have that all ready for a hearing.

We learned last year in hearings about the lunar mapping and the

number of different agencies that were all engaged in the same study.

Mr. Carstarphen has completed a study on that.

We find that there are about four different Government agencies,

we think at least, all doing the same thing as far as lunar mapping,

including the Department of the Interior.

We also have a briefing ready, about a 3-day briefing, from the

National Bureau of Standards.

Now, the National Bureau of Standards, of course, comes under

our jurisdiction. And I think that the committee should, at the beginning of every session, take a look at what the National Bureau of

Standards is doing. Even though we don't authorize their expenditures, I think it would be well for the committee to look into their

business and keep up with it.

Captain Silberstein has completed a very extensive second study of

Pioject Mercury. And we are ready to go with hearings on that at

any time, to bring that up to date.

The committee put out a report last year which was the first

interim report on Project Mercury, and now we are ready to go on

with the second.

The CHAIRMAN. For the benefit of the new members, Project

Mercury is, of course, the man-in-space program.

Mr. DUCANDER. Now, one of the things that has been troubling

everyone—and it came out in the Wiesner Report—was satellite and

space launch vehicles. We have done a study on that and that is

ready to go.

Dr. Sheldon has ready posture hearings on research and development

in the Department of Defense. We can go on that at any time.

He has his witnesses standing by.

And he also has done a very, very fine report on a chronology of

astronautical events and we will submit that for the committee's

approval probably at the next meeting.

Mr. Beresford is engaged in the study of missile ranges and ground

support. Now, in the newspaper today we had some complaints flora

the British Government or at least from someone over there, that we

can't track sputnik. I talked to the chairman this morning about

that, and he has indicated that if these reports are well founded, that

perhaps the committee should look into the matter next week.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ducander, since you mentioned that, will you

assign some staff member to that?

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir, it has already been done, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And if there is justification for it, unless there is

objection from the members, I think that we ought to look into it.

Mr. DUCANDER. Now, these studies have taken literally months to

do. And I am very hopeful that the committee will—if they don't

care to go into hearings on them—consider the work that the staff has

done and put out staff studies on them.

We have a mailing list of almost 1,000 people—of individuals, organizations, research laboratories, and universities—and the work that has

been done on this is, I think, very valuable, and should be disseminated

to this list.

Of course, I hope the committee will go into a number of these things

because I think they are very important.
8 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

The CHAIRMAN. Well, now, the first one you mentioned is the

R. & D. study by Dr. Sheldon?

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Would Dr. Sheldon care to add anything to what

you have said?

Dr. SHELDON. Mr. Chairman, that particular set of hearings has

not involved a great deal of study, as such, by the staff, except as a continuing effort which we keep up all the time to keep abreast of what is

going on in the several agencies in which the committee has an interest.

I think that Mr. Ducander referred specifically to the draft plans

awaiting the approval of the committee for 4 days of hearings fairly

early this year, at the convenience of the committee, starting with the

Secretary of Defense, Mr. McNamara, who has already agreed with the

chairman that he will appear as a witness.

The other witnesses that are scheduled include Dr. Herbert York,

Director of Defense Research and Engineering in the Department of

Defense, who holds, of course, a very key position, indeed; Dr. Ruina,

the Director of the Advanced Research Projects Agency in the Department of Defense; each of the three Assistant Secretaries for Research

and Development of the various armed services, and each of the,

commanding generals or admirals responsible for research and development in the Department of Defense.

We almost have to fight off the number of supporting witnesses and

backup people, with briefings and charts and things, that would like

to come, too.

Now, the chairman suggested to us, as a planning basis, that we

prepare for 1 day with OSD and 1 day with each of the three services.

Those people are ready to go at your convenience.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Now, since you are on your feet, Doctor, tell the committee a little

bit about the Science Panel.

We have a panel of scientists known as the Panel on Science and

Technology. Will you tell the committee how we work with them?

Dr. SHELDON. The science panel is rather a unique experiment on.

Capitol Hill. The chairman brought up this concept with the committee previously and it was adopted, and we have had some very

interesting results.

The general procedure was to invite the Director of the National

Science Foundation, the Administrator of NASA, and the Director of

the National Bureau of Standards to submit to the committee a list

of possible candidates for membership on this panel of distinguished

private citizens who could bring out the things that they are interested

in, that otherwise might not come to the attention of the committee,

and that the committee could likewise turn to for suggestions on matters of concern to us.

From this rather lengthy list of perhaps 60 names, the committee

chose 14 to serve on the panel, on an indefinite basis, until such time

as there might be some future rotation.

These people have been picked to represent major disciplines of

science in all fields, and they are chosen geographically to give as good

a spread as possible on that basis.

We have some very distinguished people on the panel. Most of

them are in Who's Who. Many of them are very well known to the

public.
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 9

For the particular benefit of new members of the committee, I have

brought along, and we can distribute for you to carry away, copies of

the first two meetings of the panel with the committee, and an appendix, including full biographies and records of the 14 members of

the panel. They include such well-known people as Dr. Van Allen,

the discoverer of the Van Allen radiation belts, from the University of

Iowa; Dr. Dubridge, president of the California Institute of Technology; and Dr. Furnas, the head of the University of Buffalo, and so

on down the list, from many areas.

Their biographies are all contained in this report, which will be

made available to any of you who are interested.

The panel has come to town on two occasions in the past. And the

chairman, has, in the absence of the members—and I am sure that

there will be no problems—invited them to come again on March 2

and 3 of this year, Thursday and Friday, if later motion tOL that effect

is entertained.

The panel usually comes for at least a morning's session, or meeting, with the committee. It has so far been primarily done with the

press and public present, for free exchange.

Panel members have presented papers with things that are on their

minds or on topics that we have suggested they cover, and then there

have usually been followup, off-the-record, discussions either with

members of the committee or with members of the staff, and it has

proved, at least to the staff I am sure, a very valuable source of information on many things that do not ordinarily come to the attention of the committee.

The members of the panel for the most part have come from the

academic community, rather than from private industry or from

Government, the view being in the past that industry and Government

and the military have had other occasions to appear here anyway and

make their points of view known, and these people on the panel, we•

probably would not hear from in the normal course of events.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I don't know what point you want to take up,

as to the matter of the very limited number of additional points that

you had considered. You may not want to do it at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. We will let that go for the time being, on suggestion.

I think, though, you should tell them what time we have designated,

after consulting with some of the top members of the committee, as

the time for having the panel meeting this year.

Dr. SHELDON. On March 2 and 3, meeting in the morning, presuniably at 10 o'clock. in the committee hearing room.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, is it your proposal that we meet here or

over at the Library of Congress?

Dr. SHELDON. The very first meeting of the panel was held at the

Library of Congress and was fairly successful.

The second meeting, after we had become better acquainted, turned

out, I thought, fairly well, in this room, as we were able to arrange it.

That would be at the convenience of the committee, however.

The CHAIRMAN. -Well, the committee can express themselves on

that after they have given it thought.

I think you have been a little modest, though. I want to say that

when we notified the panel members of the decision of the committee

to continue the panel meetings this year, and we asked them if they
10 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

were prepared or wished to continue in that type of public service—

because there is no pay to it—what was our response? Wasn't it

practically 100 percent?

Dr. SHELDON. The response was 100 percent, except for one member, who could not cancel another appointment.

And the response has not been perfunctory. It has been enthusiastic. This is the correspondence that has come in [indicating] since the

first of the year on that subject.

The CHAIRMAN. When you consider they are men from MIT and

Cal-Tech and the University of Texas and all over the country, why,

I think it is really a triuute to the work which our staff has done in

that respect and to the work of the committee in supporting the staff,

too.

Now, do you have anything else you want to add to that?

Dr. SHELDON. Well, that is the principal part.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a fine report, Doctor.

Dr. SHELDON. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it, too.

Now, Mr. Ducander, you have Captain Silberstein. Do you want

the Captain to add a little bit to what you have said about the Rover

program?

Mr. DUCANDER. I don't think, Mr. Chairman, you will want to

take the time to go through all of these reports.

The CHAIRMAN. No.

Mr. DUCANDER. But I do think some are more important than

others.

I think if Captain Silberstein will say just a couple of remarks on

Project Mercury and on the satellite and space-launch vehicles, to

be followed by something on Project Rover, because I think that is

very important, and the committee should go into it.

The CHAIRMAN. And this big booster program is a very important

thing.

If you will, Captain, tell the committee what you plan.

Captain SILBERSTEIN. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to start with the Mercury program.

During the recess I conducted a study with NASA on Mercury,

beginning at the point where our first interim report left off.

I spent a week down at the Mercury Task Force Center at Langley,

going through some of the training with the astronauts, talking with

them and with their flight surgeons and with the scientists down there.

I came away with the feeling that the Mercury program was going

to be successful. Now, that is a broad statement to make, I know.

With respect to designing the capsule and taking care of the man,

the big problem appeared to be in the rocket vehicle or the booster

which places the man in space.

At the time that we decided to go ahead with the Mercury program

we had to make some decisions on a vehicle. The Redstone was

chosen as was the Atlas.

Now, the Redstone is for the so-called suborbital or ballistic flight,

and the Atlas for the orbital flight.

At the time these decisions had to be made, so that we could meet

our target goals of placing a man in space if possible in 1961, we had

to go ahead with existing rockets. These were not what we call

man-rated rockets. In other words, they weren't designed like air-
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 11

planes, with all the safety factors that aircraft have designed into

them to protect the man.

Consequently, this is the big problem. It appears that in the Redstone rocket it is sufficiently man-rated at this time to seriously consider placing a man in it and giving Eun a ballistic ride within the next

few months. I think this has probably been proved with the ride

of the chimpanzee, under rather rigorous conditions.

The Atlas mating with the capsule and its reliability is yet to come

up. We will see this as it goes along.

And I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman that if the committee does

hold hearings on Mercury, that probably a good time to hold them

will be after we have given the man the ballistic ride. You would

want to talk to him and find out what his reactions were. I am sure

they will be interesting.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Miller.

Mr. MILLER. Captain, the press, some time ago, carried the story

that they were going to wash out two astronauts on the ground they

psychologically were not fitted. As I read the story, it was not a

nice story. Is there any truth in this?

Captain SILBERSTEIN. As far as I can determine, and I have talked

to the Mercury project people, this is not true.

Mr. MILLER. This is not true?

Captain SILBERSTEIN. They need all of them, and they are all

psychologically qualified.

As I, having spent some time with them, feel you can't find a better

group of topnotch men, and they are ready to go.

Mr. MILLER. And they were as enthusiastic as they were when

they started out?

Captain SILBERSTEIN. Yes, sir; they are.

Mr. MILLER. I am very glad to hear that. Because I thought

that this story had sort of a hooker in it. I don't know whether you

saw it or not.

Captain SILBERSTEIN. Yes, sir; I did. And I checked on this, and

there is no basis of truth in it.

The other project that 1 have is the so-called large booster program,

as the chairman put it.

I have been conducting some work in this. During the recess the

chairman directed me to visit various contractors who were in the

business of designing large booster vehicles. I visited Boeing Air-.

craft, Lockheed, Rocketdyne, Douglas, Convair, the Martin Co. We

also have had in, to give us presentations, Thiokol, United Aircraft,

and others that are in the booster business.

A large booster is very expensive. The avenue to space is literally

paved with gold. In a study that I submitted to the chairman, it

showed that to launch a Saturn vehicle will cost over $17 million, to

actually get it off the ground with its upper stages. This is not the

development of it but the cost of one unit.

The Centaur, Atlas Centaur, will cost $9,100,000 to get off the

ground. So they are quite expensive.

The problem here is what road should we follow. Is it possible

to build economically large first-stage boosters? Can we afford to

have many booster developments go on for an individual payload,

or should we build what I like to term space trucks, so that they
12 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

will meet the requirements of both the military and the National

Aeronautics and Space Administration's requirements?

I think this will be a very interesting hearing, if the committee

decides to go ahead with it. I think it will be very significant in the

fact that it is expensive and we have to make a decision as to what

road we will travel.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, you or Mr. Ducander mentioned the Project

Rover. That is the atomic project?

Mr. DUCANDER. That is Mr. Hammill's project.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes, that is Mr. Hammill's.

Thank you, Captain Silberstein.

Captain SILBERSTEIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for a fine statement.

Mr. HAMMILL. Project Rover 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hammill, is that loudspeaker connected? It

might be a very good idea to use that, because some of us are having

a little difficulty.

Mr. MILLER. This blower is on up there.

Mr. FULTON. May I ask the captain how he would like his name

pronounced?

Captain SILBERSTEIN. I usually answer to "Hey, you," Mr.

Mr. Fulton. [Laughter.] But the family pronouces it "Silbersteen".

Mr. MILLER. "Silbersteen"?

Captain SILBERSTEIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I imagine, too, you would answer to even "Admiral," there? [Laughter.]

Captain SILBERSTEIN. No, sir. [Further laughter.]

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Hammill.

Mr. HAMMILL. Project Rover, as the chairman has said, is the

project by which the Government attempts to demonstrate the

feasibility of nuclear propulsion.

The program was initiated in 1955 as a joint responsibility of AEC

and the Air Force.

In 1958, the Air Force role was formally transferred to NASA, and

that is how our interest becomes so acute in this program.

Now, AEC has responsibility for development and testing of the

reactor, which is really the heart of the proposed vehicle.

The engine, that is to say, including all of the various components,

such as valves and pumps and tanks, and so forth, and the vehicle

itself, that is, the development of the vehicle—these two items are

the responsibility of NASA.

Now, NASA did very little in connection with this development

because they were awaiting the initial test of the first reactors by

AEC. Thus far three reactors have been tested and very successfully.

Accordingly, NASA has decided that it would go out and get some

engine contractors busy on the development of the other components,

so that by the hopeful date of 1965 we might have a flyable nuclear

engine.

On the basis of my inquiries, I think that the year 1965 is slightly

ambitious. For one thing, there seems to have been, or to have arisen

between NASA and AEC, certain disagreements bearing on roles and

missions. Up to this point AEC, and particularly the Los Alamos

Laboratory, has had complete control of the Rover project.

NASA now wants to get the engine contractors into the act. And

of course there has to be a systems manager for the entire program.
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 13

NASA proposed that the Lewis Laboratory take over this particular

function. AEC, and particularly Los Alamos, disagreed.

Now, late in November everything was ready to go out—these

requests to the engine contractor were ready to go out, but they only

went out last week. The reason for the delay was these administrative

disagreements. And it seems to me—and I know, of course, that the

chairman has expressed an interest in this and has communicated with

NASA. If this sort of administrative or bureaucratic disagreement

continues, the program can be delayed months and perhaps years.

That is why I think it is so important that the committee take an

interest in the program and find out where the focus of authority is

or should be in the executive branch.

Now, last summer the two agencies established what is called the

Nuclear Propulsion Office. It is a joint office, staffed by people from

AEC and NASA. But it appears that the Nuclear Propulsion Office

is not at quite high enough level to make significant decisions when

they must be made with respect to the program. That is to say, if

the Nuclear Propulsion Office determines that a certain course of

action is advisable, apparently it can be overruled at either end by

NASA or by AEC.

This, again, is something that it seems would be of special interest

to this committee.

Now, NASA has had a little bit of difficulty getting underway

because the AEC takes a position and then relies very heavily on the

authority of the Joint Committee. In other words, they say, "Well,

in order to get anything done or in order to proceed, we know that the

Joint Committee has this view, and accordingly this is the way we

intend to go."

NASA, of course has not yet had the opportunity of relying upon

the authority of this committee, although the chairman has been in

communication with NASA about the program, and I am told now

that the authority of the committee is being used, in order to spur

the program on.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir.

Mr. HAMMILL. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that covers it pretty well. We will be getting into that later.

Mr. FULTON. Mr. Chairman, could we get what are the real

disagreements?

The CHAIRMAN. Could you give us a little bit more on the real

disagreements?

Mr. HAMMILL. Well, the Los Alamos Laboratory has had the

program right from the beginning, and it would seem that they are

getting into the engineering aspects of development now, whereas

many of the proposed engine contractors feel that Los Alamos should

be going into research of higher powered reactors at this point and

turning over the results of their earlier work to industry to do the

engineering kind of work.

Los Alamos apparently considers this sort of its baby and hates to

let it go. This is part of it.

Then there also seems to be some bad blood—maybe this is an

overstatement of the case I don't know—between Los Alamos and

the Lewis Laboratory of NASA in Cleveland.

75816-61----3
14 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

Los Alamos does not want Lewis to get into nuclear work in any

sense. Well, it was NASA's proposal that the Lewis Laboratory,

which has vast experience in propulsion matters, become the systems

supervisor of the entire development at this point.

Of course, this would give them some kind of supervision over the

activities of Los Alamos in the reactor development, which is only a

part of the total picture.

Los Alamos objected to this. This is one of the reasons that these

requests for proposals were held up for over 2 months. They simply

would not go along with Lewis.

So the result is that the Nuclear Propulsion Office, which is not

staffed with scientific personnel but rather with administrative

personnel, now has the responsibility as systems manager for the entire

project. Which means that it is going to have to either borrow

people from Lewis or other laboratories, scientific personnel, that is,

or develop a staff of its own.

Now, from what I have been able to determine, there are many

people who feel that this doesn't really make sense, that we have the

technical personnel and the competence in the Lewis Laboratory and

there is no reason why we shouldn't use it. But there seems to be

some professional jealousy between Lewis and Los Alamos.

I think it is something that the committee might well look into.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Miller.

Mr. MILLER. You said there seemed to be some interest, or that

people in private industry, that is, some of these engineering firms,

elt that they should do the engineering after the breakthrough was

made.

Mr. HAMMILL. Yes.

Mr. MILLER. Now, how much of this perhaps stimulates and keeps.

this friction alive? If we can do this job in Government as cheaply

as we can do it in private industry, we should do it in Government.

I don't hold that yOu have to turn everything over to some airplane.

company that is going to make a fancy profit on it just because, after

the great amount of money in the breakthrough is made by Govern--

ment.

Mr. HAMMILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. MILLER. How much does this factor enter into it?

Mr. HAMMILL. Well, I think the answer to this is that Los Alamos

has a staff of something around 300 people. And of course they are

involved in various projects. Project Rover is only one. These

people are highly qualified. They are some of the best people we

have in the whole country. But there just aren't enough of them to

do this kind of work.

Unfortunately, they have been used to do the kind of testing and

engineering work that could be done by other people, and they could

be used much better doing the kind of research for which they are

really qualified and where you wouldn't find this kind of talent

elsewhere. They simply don't have the personnel to do a whole job.

And, unfortunately, it appears that they want to do the whole job,

or at least are reluctant to see anyone else get in on the act. This is

the feeling of the engine manufacturers, that the fact is that it will

result in a further delay of the program.

Mr. MILLER. Well, is that the only interest of the engine manufac—

turers?
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 15

Mr. HAMMILL. Oh, I shouldn't think so.

Mr. MILLER. I don't think it is, either. Let's not make that

statement.

I just want the record to very definitely show that this isn't the big

factor. Because it would be very interesting if these engine manufacturers were to become so patriotic overnight that they were asking

for this.

Some of us who have been through investigations of airframes and

engine manufacturers know a little bit differently, and which is being

demonstrated by some antitrust suits that are being brought now.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Be careful, you might involve some California personnel out there.

Mr. MILLER. Let the chips fall where they may as far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Hammill.

We have one more item on this agenda.

Mr. Carstarphen has been working on a briefing of the National

Bureau of Standards.

Now, you don't have on your list, but I think we should, too, when

we have the opportunity, have a briefing from the National Science

Foundation.

Mr. DUCANDER. Oh, yes sir, we will have that.

Mr. MILLER. That should come before this one.

The CHAIRMAN. If you will add that to the agenda, it will be very

helpful.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, Sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, if you want to take a few moments, Mr.

Carstarphen, to explain what you have.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.

While I don't propose to be an authority on the Bureau of Standards, it did fall my good fortune last year to be the staff man assigned,

to the Bureau for a briefing. I worked with Mr. Miller's subcommittee. While I am not an authority, as such, I am a very strong

advocate of the Bureau. I feel that the chairman has done a very

fine thing when he calls these people up for a briefing, for I think the

people over the country, as well as the Congress, are not aware of the

work that is being done by the Bureau.

I sometimes think the Bureau are the people who do the spadework in the scientific fields, while others get the glamor as a result of

their work.

I see Mr. Miller acquiescing. I think he agrees with me, too.

Mr. MILLER. No question of it.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Briefly, this hearing is in the nature of an explanation of the work that the Bureau is doing in aid and furtherance

of the space program, to assist the other Government agencies to

make the program proceed most expeditiously.

We propose to have Dr. Astin come up and be the leadoff witness,

and of course give a full resume of the general work that is being

done.

Further, we have divided it into three sections for detail.

The first section will be a discussion of telecommunications and

upper atmosphere research. This takes into consideration the responsibilities of the Central Radio Propagation Laboratory out in
16 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

Boulder, Colo. It will include a summary of the major areas of activity, interrelating these areas with our speace programs, and of

course will include a more specific discussion of those programs which

have the more wide impact on space.

These will include discussions on tropospheric propagation studies,

upper atmosphere and space studies, including new techniques for

ionospheric research and space communications, an item in which this

committee is very definitely interested.

This area, too, will show a very close cooperation between the

Bureau and the agency with which we are so much concerned, and that

is the NASA.

The second division of these hearings is the standards and measurements methods and the manner in wiuch these activities not only serve

the Nation's scientists and engineers but also to show its relationship

with our space programs, too.

This will include discussion of specific programs, such as basic

meteorology and a discussion of physical constants.

There have been some very dramatic advances in standards, which,

as you rather quickly can see, have been necessary in order to develop

high standard rocket and missile production.

This section of the discussion and briefing will also include a discussion on frequency standards and radio standards.

These are becoming more and more in play as being required for

tracking arid space navigation, radiomicrowave standards which are

required for control and calibration of electronic components and instruments in various space systems.

The final portion of the briefing will be a discussion of the properties

of matter and materials. It will go into the Bureau's responsibility for

these materials research, including, again, specific approaches to those

areas where it will have close connection with space technology.

Without going into any further detail, Mr. Chairman, I think that

pretty well will cover this briefing.

It is scheduled for about a 3-day hearing: Not only general fields

of the Bureau of Standards' work but specifically as they are assisting

the space progi am.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Carstarphen.

Now, if you get into the National Science Foundation, it would take

additional time, wouldn't it?

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Yes, sir. I suggest to you an additional day.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fulton.

Mr. FULTON. I yield.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Miller.

Mr. MILLER. I was going to say whereas Mr. Carstarphen has laid

great emphasis on the Bureau of Standards and its relations to NASA

and to space, the Bureau of Standards has an overall function that

goes beyond this, and this comes under our jurisdiction. So that we

do not have to relate the Bureau of Standards and what it is doing to

space alone.

This is one of the greatest research organizations in the Government, and very little known. Other agencies, be it the AEC, NASA,

or any of the rest of them, have to depend on this agency, in that they

come to them for their calibration and measurements, and those are
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 17

the first essentials in any scientific research. And yet until my subcommittee—and unfortunately there were only two of us went out

last year, this agency had never received any recognition by Congress.

And I want to tell you that I hope that rather than spending days in

here listening to these people, we could take as many as can go of this

committee out to the Bureau of Standards and see the dedicated way

in which these people work and the work that they have done. It

would be worth much more than just listening to them here.

You remember last year they came in here and had bars and standards that had to be handled very generally, and this sort of thing.

Well, when you go out there now and see, for instance, that they are

measuring the length with a wave of light under certain conditions,

and they can show you how they do this thing, it is interesting. And

you can't bring that down here to see.

The CHAIRMAN. I think the suggestion is an excellent one. I think

we could very well go out there before we get too deeply immersed in

the affairs of this session of Congress.

I am wondering this morning if the membership would like to indicate how many—how many are present here this morning would like

to go out? [Show of hands.]

All right, we can notify the other members, and unless there is

objection, I will appoint Mr. Miller—he is an engineer and he is

especially interested in this work—to lead a group.

Mr. MILLER. Forget my engineering.

The CHAIRMAN. You are an engineer.

Mr. MILLER. I was an engineer. But I am a politician now.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not a space engineer yet, but we are going

to work that in for you. And he will work with Mr. Carstarphen,

Mr. Ducander.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I would suggest a suitable time for a trip out

there.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It is right here in Washington. It won't take

long. I am going to try to go with him, too, with the group. We

can set the time and place to meet and go out there.

Mr. MILLER. If you will wait until the snow kind of melts off the

ground.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes; we will wait for better weather.

Mr. MOELLER. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Moeller.

Mr. MOELLER. May I inject a thought here?

I don't know who should be commended for this. I want you to

have the commendation along with the staff. But I think this idea of

members visiting not only the Bureau of Standards but installations

connected with the interest and the work of this committee is of

invaluable importance. You can hear people talk about things in

this committee room and don't as thoroughly understand it as if you

are on the spot and can see it.

Now, whoever was responsible for the last 2 years, I think it is a

commendable thing. I don't know what it costs, but certainly I am

sure it pays off in the long run.

The CHAIRMAN. The cost is negligible. I think we can work that

out all right.
18 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

Mr. FULTON. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fulton.

Mr. FULTON. Could Mr. Carstarphen and Mr. Ducander tell us

where the jurisdiction lies for the authorization of funds for the Bureau

of Standards?

The CHAIRMAN. Commerce it goes through Commerce.

Mr. MILLER. It is in the Iiepartment of Commerce, that is right.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

Mr. FULTON. I don't know that this is the proper time to bring up

the subject, but shouldn't this committee, if we are to have jurisdiction of the functions, also have jurisdiction of the authorization?

And I would like the staff maybe to check, with the chairman's permission what steps might be taken to correlate those two functions.

Mr. DUCANDER. I think, of course, we do it by a very simple

amendment to the law.

But you know the problems we had with NASA.

Mr. MARTIN. You will have trouble with the Commerce Department. Regular appropriations always come through channels. I

think they would highly resent it. But it would be worth looking

into

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir, I would be glad to do it.

Mr. MILLER. Of course, the Bureau of Standards acts as a contracting agency for other agencies of Government. If NASA wants a

particular job done, it pays for it out there, like any other. And that

is one of the things that has helped to carry them along.

They are moving into a new location. We went out and looked at

the new location. It is out along River Road, way out. We looked at

this location. It needs someone—it is an institution for a long time

that has been sort of an orphan, and it needs someone to kind of look

after it. I think Jim is right.

The CHAIRMAN. When we have these hearings, I suggest, unless

there is opposition, that Mr. Carstarphen arrange to have the Bureau

give us their request for appropriations this year.

Mr. DUCANDER. We can do that.

The CHAIRMAN. So we will know. If they have no need for legislative authority—and I think that is the situation—of course, we don't

have to entertain any bill to authorize what there is no need to do.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Because I think that is the situation.

The same thing applies to the National Science Foundation. Those

two agencies, under the authority given this committee, under the

rules, are under the Science and Astronautics Committee, and we

should know how much, for instance, the Bureau of Standards needs,

how much it is getting, and where it is falling short in the way of

appropriations.

Mr. MILLER. And whether it needs more money.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't doubt it needs more money. They all do.

Mr. FULTON. Mr. Chairman, that is my point. I think you made

an excellent statement of it, that there should be supervision of the

programing and the functions as well as simply the appropriations.

And even though it is a continuing appropriation, this committee,

to me, should have the jurisdiction, I believe, as the chairman has said.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Now, at this point I want to say this, that on minor matters it will

be the policy of the chairman of the committee to consult with the
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 19

senior Republican, and that is Mr. Martin, and clear those things with

the senior Republican; in Mr. Martin's absence, Mr. Fulton.

Then unless there is objection, that is what we will do.

On major matters, we will present them to the committee, but there

is no use to take the committee's time with minor technical matters.

Now, at this time, Mr. Martin—I said before we are pleased to have

you back on the committee and glad that you are going to be more

active this year. Maybe you have something you would like to say.

Mr. MARTIN. No; I am very glad to think I will be back here more,

because my health seems to be in very good shape now, and if it does

continue to be that way, I certainly would be delighted to come,

because the work of the committee is most fascinating. I think we

have a great job to do here.

And I also want to say that in the years that I have been on the

committee it has been praiseworthy, the fact that we have had an

unpartisan spirit for the most part. We have all been actuated with

but one desire, and that is to do that which would make our country

make greater progress in space. I am sure we will be very happy to

cooperate 

The CHAIRMAN. Fine. We appreciate that very much, indeed, sir.

Now, there is another matter that I think we ought to mention,

and that is the nameplates.

Actually, some of the members of the committee have not yet been

approved by the Congress, but as soon as they are approved, I hope

Mr. Ducander will get their nameplates, for everyone.

Mr. DUCANDER. We have already put in the orders.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Miller has a report, I think you said. Are

you ready with your report?

Mr. MILLER. I think I would rather bring it up and would want a

little time when we have a formal meeting, because there is one little

phase of it that I am very anxious to formally lay before the committee. I am going to ask that Mr. Beresford have it ready when we

have our next meeting. I would like about 10 minutes to discuss this.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Beresford, would you attend to that with

Mr. Miller?

Mr. BERESFORD. I will, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, we will bring it up at the next meeting.

Mr. MOELLER. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Moeller.

Mr. MOELLER. May I ask Captain Silberstein a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Sure.

Mr. MOELLER. We have been reading and hearing occasionally in

recent days about possible communications from the recent manned

satellite which some people think may be the manned satellite of the

Soviets. Do you have any information on this? Are there communications being made? There has been a report made that there has

been some Russian language intercepted here and there et cetera.

Captain SILBERSTEIN. I have some information, Mr. Chairman.

I didn't bring it up, when you said you might hold hearings next week

on whether they are tracking the latest Russian sputnik or not.

I have information on this. However, it is classified.

Mr. MOELLER. Let's wait.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, let's wait until the executive session occurs.

Captain SILBERSTEIN. But the reports in the paper I can tell you

are not true. [Laughter.]
20 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

The CHAIRMAN. Fine. It is something we will all want to know

about.

Now, that brings us to this point: Can we have witnesses present,

we would say, next Wednesday?

Mr. DUCANDER. Oh, yes, sir; yes, sir.

We have already started lining up the hearing on the alleged failure

to track the sputnik.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, if you will arrange, then, to proceed as of

next Wednesday.

Mr. DUCANDER. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I think 

Mr. Martin, that was cleared all right; wasn't it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I understood that any hearings we had after the

15th would be all right.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But that is the arrangement.

So if you will arrange for that, we can begin our formal hearings

next Wednesday.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And then we will have one, too, the following day,

Thursday.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you can notify the witnesses of that fact.

Mr. MARTIN. Have we decided what subject we are going to take

up at that first one? Has it been definitely determined?

Mr. DUCANDER. Well, I think what you had said, Mr. Chairman,

was, because of the reports in the paper this morning, that the United

States was not able to track the Russian satellite, that you were concerned about the matter and that you wanted to have some hearings

on that.

Mr. MARTIN. That is all right.

The CHAIRMAN. It would be a bad policy, though, to begin with an

executive session, there.

Mr. DUCANDER. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In hearings. I think we ought to have what we

can in the open first.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Before we move into executive session.

Mr. DUCANDER. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. We will work it out, to begin on that short hearing,

and after that take up the research and development.

Now, I have prepared a list of subcommittees. Two years ago,

when the committee was first organized, we held back on the setting

up of the subcommittees for the reason that everything was so new

we didn't want to make a mistake. Of course, we don't want to make

a mistake now, but we are in better shape as a committee because we

have the personnel of the presently existing subcommittees; that is,

the same subcommittees we had in the last Congress.

We have Subcommittees No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, and No. 4.

Under the arrangement last year we tried to specify a descriptive

title to each subcommittee. I found in the course of the year there

were so many things that came up that did not fit under one subcom-
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 21-

mittee that during the course of the year, by agreement with everyone,

we changed that to refer to the No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, and No. 4 committee, without a descriptive title.

Of course, in this event, the No. 1 committee would be the Miller

committee. No. 2, Teague; No. 3, Anfuso, and No. 4 would be

Mr. Karth.

This was prepared on the basis—we have enough copies for everybody. Would you read this, Mr. Carstarphen? Then we can pass

these around to everyone.

Now, I want to say, before Mr. Carstarphen reads the list, that we

requested every new member on the committee to give us some idea

of how they would like their assignment. In making selections, we

considered this fact: We thought it was better that two members

from the same State not be on the same subcommittee, unless there

is particular reason why you wished two members from the same

State on the subcommittee. You could have the point where you

wouldn't have the proper statewide distribution. You might have,

for instance, California not represented on an important hearing

when California should be represented.

So I think that is about the only thing that came up in discussing

this. And this is just a tentative arrangement, which I want all of

you to look at. If you have any ideas, we would be very happy to

have them there. It is only the purpose here of the Chair to get

for the members the committee which the members wish, and on

which they are willing to do the greatest amount of work, because

there is going to be a lot of work for everyone there.

Mr. MARTIN. Do I understand, Mr. Chairman, that these members have expressed a desire to go on these different committees?

The CHAIRMAN. That is correct; yes, sir.

Now, there have been some changes there. If you will take that

list and go over that with your members on the Republican side and

see that they are satisfied with what they have there.

(Mr. Martin nods.)

The CHAIRMAN. And come back and tell us at the next meeting,

it Will be fine.

Likewise, I will be glad to hear from anybody on the Democratic

side.

As I say, again, all we want to do is to place—we have a bunch of

eager beavers here. I hope they are just as eager this year as they

were last year. And what we want to do is to let everybody be

satisfied that he is working where he prefers. And with that in mind

we will place him accordingly.

I think that is about all I had on my agenda.

We will throw the meeting open here to any member, old or new.

Mr. Corman.

Mr. CORMAN. Mr. Chairman, are there to be some general subdivisions of work under these various subcommittees? For instance,

could you tell us what each of these subcommittees just generally

would be handling?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we might say what we have done in the past.

Mr. Ducander, if you wish to give the committee that, I think that

might be helpful.

But again I tell you, Mr. Corman, that—take for instance, Mr.

Miller's subcommittee, it had construction, I believe—wasn't that it?
22 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

Mr. MILLER. Yes, construction authorization in the NASA authorization bill.

The CHAIRMAN. What we found last year was that a lot of things

that Mr. Miller was especially interested in and his subcommittee

was especially interested in did not fit into that category. So rather

than hold it to that descriptive verbiage, we just changed it and

called it No. 1 subcommittee, Mr. Miller's subcommittee.

Mr. MILLER. I think the gentleman would like to know what subjects go into these subcommittees, in a broad outline.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have that, Mr. Ducander?

Mr. DUCANDER. Subcommittee No. 1, Scientific Training and

Facilities.

Subcommittee No. 2, Scientific Research and Development.

Subcommittee No. 3, International Cooperation.

Subcommittee No. 4, Space Problems and Life Sciences.

Mr. MILLER. I think you should explain that word "facilities," for

instance: All of the authorizations for real estate or construction in

NASA, or these other agencies over which we had jurisdiction, came

before this subcommittee. For example, the authorization of new

buildings, the authorization for a new launch pad, and all of that,

came in before No. 1.

Mr. DUCANDER. That is right.

Mr. MILLER. No. 2 had all of the research.

Mr. DUCANDER. That is right.

Mr. MILLER. So they all had plenty to do, Mrs. Weis.

The CHAIRMAN. I think so.

Mr. MILLER. I am glad to have you on my subcommittee.

The CHAIRMAN. When we refer to the Miller subcommittee, it

gives us a little latitude in covering subjects that are urgent, maybe,

which the subcommittee is interested in. which otherwise would not

fall in the rigid category.

Now, is there any discussion there? Anybody?

Mr. Karth, you will be the new chairman of a subcommittee?

Mr. KARTII. YES, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any comments?

Mr. KARTH. No, Mr. Chairman, other than to say that I am very

happy, of course, to assume this responsibility and that I am sure

after these subcommittees are set up, in working operation, we will

do our very best to merit the high esteem in which this committee

has previously been held.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, now, the committee hasn't heretofore had a

lady member on the committee. We will be happy to hear from

you before we adjourn.

Mrs. WEIS. I think I will be different than most ladies and keep

still, Mr. Chairman, until I know more about it. [Laughter.]

Mr. MILLER. All I have to say, Mr. Chairman, is that I am very

happy to have her here.

I want to tell you, though, Mrs. Weis, that I noticed Mr. Casey is

on this subcommittee. I served on another committee with Mr. Casey,

and if I am not mistaken, Mr. Casey is going to run the subcommittee.

Mrs. WEIS. I somehow doubt that, Mr. Miller.

Mr. VAN PELT. Mr. Chairman, just one question.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 23

Mr. VAN PELT. What has happened on this invitation that we had

for Nevada? Is there firming up on that?

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. That was due to an accident out there that

forced the cancellation, Mr. Van Pelt. The only information I had,

at the time of the cancellation, it was to be rescheduled in approximately 30 days, which would make it the latter part of this month,

if they were ready by that time.

Mr. VAN PELT. The other suggestion I had in line with that, Mr.

Chairman, I had an opportunity to see the B-70 mockup at North

American in Los Angeles, and, if possible, I had suggested to the staff

that it would only be a 3- or 4-hour trip from Nevada, and if we could

take that in—for members that haven't seen that plane certainly

ought to see it because they are going to hear som'ething about it

as time goes on.

The CHAIRMAN. That is an excellent idea.

You know this committee really had some very fine hearings there,

and a fine report, that formed the basis of getting the B-70 project

off dead center. And I think we have done a real job for our country

in that respect.

Is there any further business to come before the meeting?

If not, we will adjourn, then, until next Wednesday.

(Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the committee adjourned, to reconvene

on Wednesday, February 15, 1961.)

MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

PUBLIC ORGANIZATION

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 1961

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met at 10 a.m., Hon. Overton Brooks (chairman)

presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

The first order of business of any committee when it is opening its

first formal session should be the rollcall.

Mr. Carstarphen, the committee clerk, will you call the roll.

Mr. CARSTARPHEN Yes, sir.

(Rollcall.)

The CHAIRMAN. How many do we have present, Mr. Carstarphen?

Mr. CARSTARPHEN. Thirteen, sir; and a quorum.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you get the others as they come in. Some

are undoubtedly a little late.

I think the first order this morning should be the confirmation of

the staff.

(The appropriate resolution is as follows:)

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS,

February 15, 1941.

COMMITTEE RESOLUTION No. 1

Be it resolved, That the following persons be and the same hereby elected to the

professional staff of the Committee on Science and Astronautics, House of Representatives, pursuant and subject to Public Law 601 (79th Cong.), to fill the

following positions, respectively, it being understood that according to the

provisions of this law the chairman will fix the basic salary per annum:

Charles F. Ducander, executive director and chief counsel.

Dr. Charles S. Sheldon II, technical director.

Spencer M. Beresford, special counsel.

Philip B. Yeager, special consultant.

Be it further resolved, That the following persons be and the same are hereby

elected to the clerical staff of the Committee on Science and Astronautics, House

of Representatives, pursuant to and subject to Public Law 601 (79th Cong.),

and the rules with amendments thereto (84th Cong.), to fill the following positions

respectively, it being understood that according to the provisions of this law, the

chairman shall fix the basic salary per annum:

John A. Carstarphen, Jr., chief clerk.

Emily Dodson, secretary.

Eva F. Lopez, secretary.

Mary L. Myron, secretary.

Mary Ann Robert, secretary.

Jane J. Zetty, secretary.

The CHAIRMAN. At the last meeting which we held informally the

other day all of the staff was present.
26 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

The committee staff was taken largely from the select Committee

on Astronautics, presided over by Mr. McCormack.

These members are Mr. Ducan.der, who is our director, Dr. Sheldon, who came from the Library of Congress and who is assistant director,

Mr. Beresford, also from the Library of Congress, an able attorney and technician.

Mr. Yeager, who is from Illinois, and who has a great, long list of degrees from different universities, and a good able man.

Mr. Carstarphen, who is our committee clerk.

We also have Mrs. Dodson, Mrs. Lopez, Miss Myron, Mrs. Robert, and Mrs. Zetty.

If there is no objection, we will confirm them.

Mr. MARTIN. I move they be elected.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard the motion. All in favor, aye? Op- posed, no? There being no objection, the resolution is agreed to and the staff is confirmed.

I want the lady members to stand up here. I have read their names.

We have not only the most efficient lady members on our staff but we also have the best looking, too. [Laughter.]

We are happy to have the ladies here this morning. You can go

on back, if you wish to, to your regular places.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes; get back to work. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRMAN. Now we have the matter of the rules of the com- mittee.

(The appropriate resolution is as follows:)

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS,

February 15, 1961.

COMMITTEE RESOLUTION No. 2

Be it resolved, That the Committee on Science and Astronautics, House of Representatives, adopt the following rules for proceedings of the committee for the 87th Congress:

1. The Rules of the House of Representatives, insofar as they are applicable, shall govern the committee and its subcommittees. The rules of the committee, insofar as they are applicable, shall be the rules of any subcommittee of the committee.

2. The meetings of the committee shall be held every Tuesday at 10 a.m. and

at such other times and in such places as the chairman may designate, or at such times as a quorum of the committee may request in writing. Subcommittee meet- ings shall not be held while the full committee is meeting, unless prior approval has been granted by the chairman.

3. A regular Tuesday meeting of the committee may be dispensed with by the chairman.

4. A majority of members of the committee shall constitute a quorum. A

majority of a subcommittee shall constitute a quorum of such subcommittee.

5. No general proxies may be used for any purpose. A member may vote by special proxy, which must be in writing and signed, or by telegraph, dated, and delivered to the clerk of the committee. It must identify the member to whom the proxy is given. It must identify the particular bill or resolution and amendments thereto, motion, or other specific matter under consideration. Such a

proxy may be used in the full committee or a subcommittee.

6. A proxy may not be used for the purpose of establishing a quorum, nor may

a proxy be used at the organization meeting at the beginning of each Congress.

7. A rollcall of the members may be had at the request of three or more members.

8. No measure or recommendation shall be reported or tabled by the committee

unless a majority of the committee is actually present.

9. The chairman may name standing or special subcommittees.

10. All other members of the committee may have the privilege of sitting with

any subcommittee during its hearings or deliberations and may participate in such hearings or deliberations, but no such member who is not a member of the sub- committee shall vote on any matter before such subcommittee.
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 27

11. A majority vote of any subcommittee will be required to report any bill,

resolution, or other matter to the full committee, or to table any bill, resolution, or

other matter before it.

12. The chairman shall have the authority to refer all bills, resolutions, or other

matters to any subcommittee(s) or to the full committee. A subcommittee to

which a bill, resolution, or other matter has been referred shall proceed with all

possible diligence, if a majority of a quorum so directs, with appropriate inquiry,

and report its findings and recommendations to the full committee, but the chairman of the full committee shall have authority to discharge a subcommittee from

consideration of any bill, resolution, or other matter referred thereto and have such

measure or matter considered by the full committee.

13. The order of business and procedure of the committee and the subjects of

inquiries or investigations will be decided by the chairman, subject always to an

appeal to the committee.

14. Bills will be taken up for hearing only when called by the chairman of the

committee or subcommittee or by a majority vote of a quorum of the committee

or subcommittee.

15. The time any one member may address the committee on any bill, motion,

or other matter under consideration by the committee or the time allowed for the

questioning of a witness at hearings before the committee will be limited to 10

minutes, and then only when he has been recognized by the chairman, except

that this time limit may be waived by the chairman or acting chairman. The

rule of germaneness will be enforced by the chairman.

16. No private bill will be reported by the committee if there are two or more

dissenting votes. Private bills so rejected by the committee will not be reconsidered during the same Congress unless new evidence sufficient to justify a new

hearing has been presented to the committee.

17. The chairman and the ranking minority member shal serve as ex officio

members of all subcommittees and shall have the right to vote on all matters

before the subcommittees.

18. All hearings conducted by the committee or its subcommittees shall be

open to the public except where the chairman or the chairman of the subcommittee concerned orders an executive session.

19. Reports and recommendations of a subcommittee shall not be considered

by the full committee until after the intervention of 3 calendar days from the

time the report is submitted and printed hearings thereon are available to the

members, except that this rule may be waived in the discretion of the chairman.

20. No committee meeting or subcommittee meeting may be held unless one

member of the majority and one member of the minority is present.

The CHAIRMAN. At the last session we went over them very carefully. They worked very well for this committee. If there is no

objection now we can confirm the rules of the last session of Congress

for the committee.

Do I hear a motion?

Mr. MARTIN. I SO move.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard the motion. If there is no objection,

the rules of the committee of the last session are confirmed and

adopted.

We have here a very fine committee report on a chronology of missile and astronautic events, by Dr. Sheldon.

It has no recommendations in it. It is merely a chronology of development of missiles. No one has seen it. I mentioned it. We

can have it printed and sent to the members of the committee before

any action is taken. Is that the pleasure of the committee?

Mr. MARTIN. I think that would be advisable.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Dr. Sheldon wrote the report and he

has done a splendid job.

Mr. Ducander, would you have that printed?

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And deliver it to the members of the committee.

And in 10 days we will take it up, if there is no objection.

Mr. DUCANDER. Yes, sir.
28 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

Mr. FULTON. May I ask: Does that include the legislative history,

too?

Mr. DUCANDER. I think it does.

Dr. Sheldon can answer that.

The CHAIRMAN. Come forward, Doctor. Tell us in just 2 or 3

minutes what it includes here.

Mr. FULTON. Does it have the legislative history?

Dr. SHELDON. Sir, it includes, in the text, principal events of a

technical nature with regard to all launchings of satellites in all parts

of the world, principal probes that have been launched, major inventions that have been made—a fairly complete legislative history and

financial history of NASA, in particular, and most anything else that

I thought would be a handy reference for the members of the committee and public following these affairs.

Mr. FULTON. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Doctor.

Now we will have that printed and everybody will have a copy

of it.

Mr. Miller wished to deliver for about 3 minutes a short report.

It was a report due to come up at the last session but we didn't have

it. Mr. Miller, we are happy to hear from you.

Mr. MILLER. Mr. Chairman, I was designated to go to Stockholm

last year to attend the 11th annual meeting of the International Astronautical Federation. Mr. Beresford accompanied me. We have a

report here. It will speak for itself. I am not going into details on

it.

But this I do want to direct to the attention of the committee

because I thirrk that it is quite important.

While there we had occasion to see the scientific attache at the

Swedish Legation, the gentleman who covers the Nordic countries—

Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway. We maintain this man

at a very heavy expense—for him and his staff. They are doing a

good job.

But the thing that struck me was the fact that he is only allowed

$700 a year for travel expenses. Now we set up this agency, this

man that can perform a very important service. He can be the listening post for scientists and people coming out from behind the Iron

Curtain countries into countries with which they are fairly friendly.

And we don't give him enough money to travel with or to do his job

properly.

Now I have had some little investigation made by Mr. Beresford

into how these funds are allocated and find that the travel funds are

allocated to the embassies and they, in turn, determine how they are

going to be used.

Now, in the cursory examination that we made, it indicates that

this is the pattern pretty much throughout the American Embassy.

And if this is the case, I think that it behooves this committee to take

a look at the situation and see if we can't get more money for these

people to do the job that we have asked them to do, a job that is

important in the field of science, and not set them up and tie their

hands by the lack of funds.

I would like to bring that to the attention of the committee, with

the suggestion that at some time in the near future the committee go

into this quite thoroughly.
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 29

The CHAIRMAN. Is that your major recommendation?

Mr. MILLER. Well, that is part of my recommendation. It is not

in here because that wasn't the thing we were sent there on. This was

secondary. I do want to bring it to the attention of the committee

with that recommendation.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard the report there of Mr. Miller.

Is there any objection to his filing the report as a committee report?

(No response.)

The CHAIRMAN. If not, it is SO ordered.

Now I might say at this point: I think it is probably appropriate

to say that I think we ought to have a policy in reference to printing

these reports. Just generally speaking, it seemed to me reasonable

that when a group or a subcommittee goes out at the request of the

committee, that it would be proper to have the report or reports

printed. When an individual goes out there, as an individual, I

don't think there is justification for printing the report, without active

action on the part of the committee.

So if there is no objection, when there is a subcommittee sent out

at the request of the full committee, when the report comes back

it will be printed. But where you have an individual member going

out, especially when he is making his own trip—and I hope we can

make a good many of them this year—the report won't be printed.

Mr. DADDARIO. Mr. Chairman 

The CHAIRMAN. We could see how that works there. Yes, sure.

Mr. DADDARIO. I think you are referring to a report that I 

The CHAIRMAN. No, I am not referring to any report.

Mr. DADDARIO. The report I prepared falls within that category.

The CHAIRMAN. It does?

Mr. DADDARIO. And it seems to me that when I made this trip it

was not an individual trip. It was a trip made under the authority

and under the direction of this committee.

The CHAIRMAN. We were happy to have you go, really.

Mr. DADDARIO. The results of that in some way or other should

be printed. It seems to me it should fall within the expense of this

committee rather than on the shoulders of the expense of the original

allotment of the individual Member of Congress.

I would object to that ruling under those circumstances. It would

seem to me that it ought to be determined by the Chair as to the

nature of the report.

The CHAIRMAN. HOW long is your report?

Mr. DADDARIO. It is quite a lengthy report, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Do we have any estimate on the expense?

Mr. FULTON. Would the gentleman yield?

The CHAIRMAN. Wait. What is the expense?

Mr. FINCH. It is 87 pages full type.

The CHAIRMAN. How much is it?

Mr. DUCANDER. I have it here.

To have it printed at the Government Printing Office would cost

$480, and to have it printed or mimeographed by Truman Ward

would cost $300.

Mr. MARTIN. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, we let this matter go over.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. DADDARIO. Mr. Chairman, I want to add one thing. It was

my intention to take this up with the Chair privately.
30 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. DADDARIO. Than bring it up in public only because I do not

want to have this report ruled out by such a ruling as you have

requested be made this morning.

Mr. FULTON. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. DADDARIO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. We will let the matter go over until another day.

Mr. FULTON. May I say this.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. FULTON. I think each report as it comes in should be passed

on by the committee on its merits and we should do it as a matter of

committee procedure. So I agree it should go over.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. The matter will be brought up. You

will not be prejudiced in any way, Mr. Daddario.

Mr. DADDARIO. Thank you.

(Whereupon, at 10:15 p.m., the committee recessed.)

(Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m. the following proceedings were had:)

The CHAIRMAN. Now, before we adjourn here, I have two things I

want to mention.

In the first place, I have been given this letter here by our good

colleague, Gordon McDonough, of California.

Gordon was a member of this committee last year, and he asked

that this letter be placed in the record.

I will ask one of our counsel if he will read the letter. I am sure

there is no objection to placing it in the record. And this little note

attached to it is his request for the introducing of the letter into the

record.

Mr. BERESFORD. The note says, "I would appreciate it if you

would make this part of your committee record."

The CHAIRMAN. Will you read the letter now, the date and

everything.

Mr. BERESFORD (reading) :

Hon. OVERTON BROOKS,

Chairman, Science and Astronautics Committee,

House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.

MY DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN:

(Text of letter for files of committee only.)

Mr. BERESFORD (reading) :

Sincerely,

FEBRUARY 15, 1961.

GORDON L. MCDONOUGH,

Member of Congress, 15th District, California.

The CHAIRMAN. If there is no objection, it will be made part of the

record.

I told Mr. McDonough whenever he is over here and has time, the

committee will be glad to have him sit with us. He was a good man

on the committee and did great work. We miss him.

Mr. FULTON. Mr. Chairman, a suggestion, in lieu of a request.

I don't believe the letter should be made part of this hearing record.

Mr. MILLER. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Part of the committee record.

Mr. FULTON. It will be put in the committee records and not part

of the hearings.
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 31

The CHAIRMAN. If there is no objection, it is so ordered.

Now tomorrow, ladies and gentlemen of the committee, we have

scheduled as witnesses Dr. Herbert F. York, Director of Defense

Research and Engineering, Department of Defense, and John H.

Rubel, Deputy Director, Defense Research and Engineering, Department of Defense, and Dr. J. P. Ruina, Director, Advanced Research

Projects Agency, and Mr. Beresford, who is handling this agenda for

the committee, tells me that they are excellent witnesses and we will

get some very fine testimony from them.

And so, if there is no objection, the committee will stand adjourned

until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the committee adjourned until 10 a.m.,

Thursday, February 16, 1961.)

MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

NATIONAL MEDAL OF SCIENCE

THURSDAY, APRIL 20, 1961

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 a.m., in room

214—B, New House Office Building, Hon. Overton Brooks (chairman)

presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

We have been meeting as a Subcommittee on Research and Development because the full committee took over the work of one of

the subcommittees. However, this morning we are meeting as a full

committee because of the witnesses on the solid versus liquid propellant controversy.

We have brought some witnesses here from California this morning.

We have Dr. Brunetti, president of the Grand Central Rocket Co. of

Redlands, Calif., Dr. Arch C. Scurlock, president of the Atlantic

Research Corp., Alexandria, Va. He is accompanied by Mr. M. Lee

Rice.

We will go into that pretty carefully and will hear any other witnesses that the committee feels we should hear in respect to that controversy.

Before we do that, however, this morning we have a special occasion. We are pleased to have here Dr. Waterman of the National

Science Foundation, who is a mighty good friend of this committee.

As you know, that is one of the areas of jurisdiction provided in the

statute for the committee.

Some time ago we enacted a bill to create a Medal of Science to be

awarded to distinguished scientists who made real outstanding contributions. That medal is to be awarded by the President of the

United States. This morning we have Dr. Waterman here; he wishes

to make a presentation to the committee.

Doctor, I don't want to steal your thunder, so I am going to turn

the matter over to you, sir.

STATEMENT OF DR. ALAN T. WATERMAN, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL

SCIENCE FOUNDATION

Dr. WATERMAN. Thank you, MT. Chairman.

As you have just remarked, Mr. Chairman, in connection with the

passage of the public law regarding a National Medal of Science, the

medal was to be awarded by the President, you recall, on the basis of

recommendations received from the National Academy of Sciences

83
34 MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

and other organizations to individuals deserving of special recognition

by reason of their outstanding contributions to knowledge in the

physical, biological, mathematical, or engineering sciences, the award

to be made to not more than 20 individuals in 1 year.

This is an award to recognize outstanding research scientists and

engineers and mathematicians. It was a provision of the bill that the

National Science Foundation should recommend to the President the

design of the medal itself. And on January 18 the President issued

an Executive Order No. 10910 prescribing the design of this medal

and quoting the provisions by which this is awarded.. The National

Science Foundation therefore has made provision for the medal itself.

It may interest you to know that the medal is struck in bronze. It

has the figure on one side of a man holding a crystal in his left hand

as he writes an equation in the sand on which he kneels. Behind him

is the sea and there is a star above his shoulder. The man is portrayed against the background of earth, sea, and heavens.

It seemed, Mr. Chairman, very appropriate and fitting to us that

you as chairman should receive a replica of this medal, to serve as a

memento of the occasion of passing this bill. It gives me great

pleasure to present you with the replica. [Applause.]

The CHAIRMAN. I want to thank you very much, Dr. Waterman, on

behalf of this committee. This, of course, is a replica of the medal

presented to me as chairman, but to the committee itself, really.

We nonetheless appreciate it very, very much. The original medal,

of course, is presented by the President of the United States.

We are delighted to have our dear friend Dr. Waterman here to give

us this replica. My thought is that, in accepting it on behalf of the

committee, that we will get a case of some sort for the committee for

trophies, and we will place this medal here in the trophy case as a part

of the archives of the committee. This is a new committee, but it is

rapidly getting rich in history and tradition.

This will serve, Doctor, in a real way to increase the interest in the

history and the tradition of this committee. So I, myself, and the

members of the committee are very grateful to you for this occasion.

I want all of the members to see the medal. By the way, this is the

first time I have seen it, too. Following that, I am wondering if we

couldn't have all the committee members who are present get together

here and get a picture made while this presentation is being made, including Dr. Waterman.

Dr. WATERMAN. It also seems appropriate in consultation with

your staff to present a replica to Congressman Anfuso, who was the

one who actually recommended the bill and worked very bard in its

behalf.

The CHAIRMAN. We certainly appreciate your coming down, Doctor, for this occasion.

Mrs. Weis presented a resolution the other morning in reference to

encouraging civilian participation in the space program. At that

time Mr. Fulton suggested we wait to give him a chance to study the

resolution. I haven't heard of any objection from anyone to it.

Mr. MILLER. May I raise the question, as to the propriety of this

committee going into this field. It looks to me as if it is a gratuitous

thing on our part, suggesting certain people who are making encroachments in this field, be given some special consideration.
MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS 35

While I have no objection to the telephone company, and I am

anxious to see it get in the field, I don't think this committee has to

particularly encourage them in this respect. They are going to benefit

materially by the work which has been done in the field.

They come in at the 11th hour and say, This is fine, look what we

are doing for the people of the country, look at the great advances

we have made in research and development in bringing new forms of

communication to them, when all they have done is reap the benefits

of the work that is done by the Federal Government.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know of any 

Mr. MILLER. This is the only company that has made any advance.

The CHAIRMAN. That is not true; there are other companies that

have.

Mr. CHENOWETH. I would like to have the resolution read.

The CHAIRMAN. DO you have a copy of it?

Mr. CHENOWETH. I would like to have the clerkread the resolution.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. I feel this is something that should be discussed in

executive session. I would suggest that we withhold action until we

complete the testimony this morning with the committee, and then in

executive session dispose of it.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is an excellent idea. I didn't know of

any objection to it. I had had no objection made to me. I am really

surprised there is. We will take it up in executive session.

Mr. CHENOWETH. I would like to have it read.

The CHAIRMAN. Since we are not going to take it up today, we will

give you a copy, and then we will have it read.

Mr. CHENOWETH. You are not going to take it up today?

The CHAIRMAN. Not in open session.

Mr. CHENOWETH. Not today at all?

The CHAIRMAN. We won't have a chance to.

(Whereupon the committee proceeded to other business.)

MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

ACTION ON WEIS RESOLUTION

MAY 10, 1961

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met at 12:05 p.m., in room 214—B, New House

Office Building, Hon. Overton Brooks (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. We have a committee resolution that has been

before the committee for some time. No action has been taken on

this matter to date. It is known as the Weis resolution. It puts the

committee on record in favor of the Government cooperating with

private enterprise in space programs. Everybody knows the content

of it. As far as I know there is no objection.

If there is no objection, we will act on it today. It is simply a

committee resolution. It requires no action other than our approval.

Mr. FULTON. Somebody better move its adoption. I so move.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Second.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard the motion, made and seconded.

If there is no objection, it is adopted.

The committee will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(The aforementioned resolution is as follows:)

RESOLUTION OF THE COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS, U.S. HOUSE

OF REPRESENTATIVES

Resolved, That it is the sense of the committee that the free enterprise system

in the United States has demonstrated extraordinary capacity for meeting the

needs of the Nation, and that the ingenuity of the American business community

should be harnessed and utilized to the maximum extent practicable in the

Nation's space programs.

The committee accordingly calls upon the National Aeronautics and Space

Administration to invite the participation of private industry (through conferences and consultations and in other suitable ways) in the development of such

programs, particularly with respect to those programs or parts of programs which

lend themselves to commercial development, operation, or utilization (such as

communications, navigation, meteorology, and other appropriate activities).

In addition the committee recommends the adoption of an express policy of

cooperation between private industry and the Federal Government under which

the investment of private capital in the Nation's space activities is encouraged.

(Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the committee was adjourned, to

reconvene at 10 a.m. Thursday, May 11, 1961.)

37

MISCELLANEOUS COMMITTEE BUSINESS

COMMITTEE ACTION ON EXPANDABLE SPACE STRUCTURES

TUESDAY, AUGUST 15, 1961

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:55 a.m., in room 214—B,

New House Office Building, Hon. George P. Miller presiding.

Mr. MILLER. The committee will be in order.

This full committee meeting was called at 10 minutes to 10 so that

we won't interfere with a scheduled meeting of the Patent Subcommittee which will take over at 10 o'clock.

There are two pieces of business that we are desirous of disposing

of, if we can do so this morning.

May I say first, Chairman Brooks is unable to be here this morning.

The first item of business is a report on expandable space structures.

This has been in the hands of the committee for over 10 days. No

objection has been filed to it.

So, without objection, the report will be accepted and considered

as filed and approved.

(Whereupon, at 10 a.m., the committee proceeded to further

business.)

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