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NOMINATION OF CARLISLE P. RUNGE

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GOVERNMEN1

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HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGHTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS

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FIRST SESSION

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NOMINATION OF CARLISLE P. RUNGE, NOMINEE- 8? NATE

FOR ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (MANPO

PERSONNEL, AND RESERVE)

FEBRUARY 2, 1961

Printed for the use of the Committee on Armed Services

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

65199 WASHINGTON : 1961

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"14

COMMITTEE ON ARMED ISERVICES

• RICHARD B. RUSSELL, Georgia, Chairman

HARRY FLOOD BYRD, Virginia

JOHN .STENNIS, Mississippi

STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri

HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington

SAM J. ERVIN, JR., North Carolina

STROM THURMOND, South Carolina

CLAIR ENGLE, California

E. L. BAR.TLETT, Alaska

HOWARD W. CANNON, Nevada

ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia

HARRY L. WINGATE, Jr., Chief Clerk

II

LEVERETT SALTONSTALL, Massachusetts

STYLES BRIDGES, New Hampshire

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine

FRANCIS CASE, South Dakota

PRESCOTT BUSH, Connecticut

J. GLENN BEALL, Maryland
0

CONTENTS

Statements of: Page

Proxmire, Hon. William, a U.S. Senator from the State of Wisconsin_ 3

Runge, Carlisle P., nominee-designate for Assistant Secretary of Defense (Manpower, Personnel, and Reserve) 

III
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I
OMINATION OF CARLISLE P. RUNGE, NOMINEEDESIGNATE FOR ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (MANPOWER, PERSONNEL, AND RESERVE)

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 2, 1961

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

TV ash,ing ton,D '.0 .

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:35 a.m., in room 212,

Old Senate Office Building, Senator Richard B. Russell (chairman)

'presiding.

Present: Senators Russell, Stennis, Symington, Thurmond, Engle,

Cannon, Byrd of West Virginia, Saltonstall, Smith, Case, Bush,

'and Beall.

Also present: William H. Darden of the committee staff; Harry L.

Wingate, Jr., chief clerk; T. Edward Braswell, Gordon Nease, of

the committee staff; and Herbert S. Atkinson, assistant chief clerk.

Chairman RUSSELL. Mr. Carlisle P. Runge, the nominee-designate

for Assistant Secretary of Defense in Charge of Manpower Personnel, and Reserve, is present this morning. Please be sealed, Mr.

Runge.

We hope that the committee table will fill up shortly. We are

glad to have you here before the committee.

The responsibilities of the office to which you have been designated.

are those that historically have brought the occupant before this committee quite often.

Recruitment and retention of qualified military and civilian personnel have been major problems at least since 1950, and the structure

and functions of the Reserve components are subjects of vital interest

to the national security and, therefore, of unusual interest to this

committee.

You have an opportunity in this position to perform an unusually

important service to your country.

If you will give us a short statement of your education and experience, Mr. Runge, then perhaps the committee may have some

questions.

STATEMENT OF CARLISLE P. RUNGE, NOMINEE-DESIGNATE FOR

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (MANPOWER, PERSONNEL,

AND RESERVE)

Mr. RUNGE. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

My name is Carlisle P. Runge. I am from Madison, Wis.

I was born in Seymour, Wis., which is in Outagamie County.
2 NOMINATION OF CARLISLE P. RUNGE,

I attended local schools there, and then entered the University of

Wisconsin as an undergraduate.

I majored in American institutions as an undergraduate and took

my commission in the Army Reserve as a graduate of the ROTC.

I entered on active military duty immediately in the spring.

In June of 1942, I served in the Continental United States, and

after activating and training my own unit, took this unit to the

European theater

'

where we operated and trained in the United

Kingdom until July, when we were part of the unit of the advanced

section of the communications zone that went to Normandy as a backup of the 1st U.S. Army.

We operated along the lines of communication of the 3d U.S.

Army, eventually operating, and I commanded, the quartermaster

class 1 installation at Nurenberg, which I believe was the largest concentration of class 1 supplies in the history of the Army—approximately 100 million rations in that depot.

Later that fall, as troops were being redeployed, the opportunity became available and I was sent as a military student to Oxford University for one term, where I was a member of the new college for

reading modern European history.

I returned to the United States in January of 1946, in the grade

of major in the Quartermaster Corps was awarded the Bronze Star

Medal, my unit, the Distinguished Unit Citation, and we had participated in four of the campaigns in Western Europe.

On return to the States and after terminal leave, I entered the

University of Wisconsin Law School and took my LL.B. degree in

1948.

After graduation I was appointed assistant U.S. attorney for the

western district of Wisconsin. This is a small office. I was the only

assistant and participated in all of the civil and criminal matters for

the office.

In 1951, I was appointed to the University of Wisconsin law

faculty and I have been there since that time.

I am now a professor of law, and for some time was assistant dean

of the law school.

In addition to the usual administrative duties and academic assignments, I have served as the coordinator of the national security studies

group within the university. This is an interdisciplinary activity—

law, economics, history, political science, geography and journalism—

and we attempt collectively to pursue matters of foreign and military

policy and their relationship.

We offer a graduate level seminar for law students and graduate

students, have some undergraduate instruction, and a reasonable research -program which has been supported these past years by the

Carnegie Corp. of New York.

Two particular assignments in the last several years:

No. 1, I served as the deputy chairman of the legislative council

committee on war emergency legislation. Our committee prepared,

and the legislature enacted, comprehensive civil defense legislation

for the State of Wisconsin.

The other assignment last year was that of chairman of the university's special committee on ROTC affairs. Our committee came

into the problem after the legislature had made the question of ROTC,
NOMINATION OF CARLISLE P. RUNGE,

whether it should be voluntary or compulsory, a matter for the university to decide. The faculty desired to have it on a voluntary basis

and we attempted to take this situation and to develop a revised program under these conditions that would continue to make the program hopefully better than it was before.

Our plans, the so-called Wisconsin plan, was adopted by the Air

Force, and is generally available throughout the country.

The Army went part, of the way on the Wisconsin plan. Even

though the program is on a voluntary basis, I should say that we incorporated a special orientation program of a compulsory nature

for all freshmen men, and I think this has been reasonably successful.

We brought into the program on a voluntary basis 400 cadets on

the Madison campus, 400 on the Milwaukee, and 300 air cadets, plus

the 80 or 90 in the Navy's program, which would indicate that projecting a program on a voluntary basis with this kind of a faculty support

can be a successful program.

I have been active in community affairs, a member of the park commission and the special planning committee in the city and other

affairs of that kind, and have continued since the wartime period as a

Reserve officer.

I am currently a colonel commanding the 32d Infantry Division

Trains, Wisconsin Army National Guard. This, as the committee

knows, is a priority unit of high strength, and, I trust, a fair degree

of capability.

I am married and have three children, Carlisle, Elizabeth Louise,

and Fredrica.

Senator RUSSELL. I have just been handed a letter from Senator

Proxmire, of Wisconsin, warmly endorsing Mr. Runge, and I ask

that this letter be placed in the record at this point.

STATEMENT OF SENATOR WILLIAM PROXMIRE, IN SUPPORT OF THE NOMINATION OF

CARLISLE P. RUNGE AS ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (MANPOWER, PERSONNEL, AND RESERVE)

FEBRUARY 2, 1961.

Hon. RICHARD RUSSELL,

Chairman, Armed Services Committee,

U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR SENATOR RUSSELL: I deeply regret that a speaking engagement in my

home State made it impossible for me to attend the hearing of your committee

this morning, and to express to you in person my gratification at the appointment

of Carlisle P. Runge as Assistant Secretary of Defense for Manpower, Personnel,

and Reserve. Since I am not able to appear in person, I would greatly appreciate

it if you could arrange to have this letter made a part of the record.

Mr. Runge is particularly suited for this post on the basis of his long record

of interest in the Defense Establishment and his record of outstanding service to

our country in the military and in the active reserve. In addition to these

qualifications, he has been a distinguished member of the faculty of the University of Wisconsin Law School and an outstanding member of the bar in our State.

It is a real pleasure for me to recommend to you, for your favorable consideration, Mr. Runge for this post.

Sincerely,

(Signed) WILLIAM PROXMIRE,

U.S. Senator.
4 NOMINATION OF CARLISLE P. RUNGE,

(A biography of Mr. Runge follows:)

CARLISLE P. RUNGE

Carlisle Piehl Runge was born in Seymour, Wis., on March 25, 1920. He received his Ph. B. in 1946 and his LL.B. in 1948 from the University of Wisconsin.

He attended Oxford University in 1945.

From 1948 to 1951, Mr. Runge was assistant U.S. attorney for the western

district of Wisconsin. From 1951 to the present, he has been associated with the

University of Wisconsin Law Faculty and is now professor of law, as well as

coordinator of the university's national security studies group. He served as

assistant dean of the Wisconsin Law School from 1955 to 1959. During 1959

and 1960, Mr. Runge served as chairman of the university's special committee

on ROTC.

Mr. Runge served with the 3d U.S. Army during World War II, being commissioned through the ROTC program in 1942 and discharged as a major in

1946. He received the Bronze Star Medal for services in the European Theater

of Operations. At present, Mr. Runge is commander of the 32d Infantry Division Trains, Wisconsin Army National Guard, and holds a Reserve commission

as a colonel in the Army Quartermaster Corps.

He is a member of the Madison Park Commission, and the city's special

planning committee. Runge served as deputy chairman of the Wisconsin

Legislative Council Committee on War Emergency Legislation during 1958

and 1959.

Mr. Runge is married to the former Elizabeth Eshleman and has three childen, Carlisle Ford, Elizabeth Louise, and Fredrica W.

He is a member of Sigma Phi Phi Delta Phi, Wisconsin State Bar, Wisconsin

Historical Society, National Guard Association, the U.S. Army Association,

and the Institute for Strategic Studies.

Chairman RUSSELL. Mr. Runge, in 19552 this committee somewhat

reluctantly agreed to legislation that required draftees and enlistees

to participate actively in the Reserve after they had completed their

tour of active duty.

Our reluctance did not stem from any unwillingness to do everything that is required to provide the necessary manpower, but it

grew out of the realization that with only a small part of the available manpower being inducted, it was somewhat unfair to add the

active duty participation to the relatively few who were selected

for induction.

Nonetheless, the committee finally agreed to this requirement as

part of a comprehensive plan involving very substantial numbers

of enlistees in the 6-month training program.

The 6-month training program has not been operated at its full

potential, presumably for budgetary reasons.

This is a very complex subject and I am not going to ask you

your views on it this morning because I would not expect you to

commit yourself without careful examination of it.

I do hope, however, that you will take a good look at the equities

that are involved in these several programs before a young man

can discharge all of his military obligations.

I have the feeling that the draftee who is required to participate

actively in the Reserve, after he has done his active duty, is now

called on for more than his fair share of the responsibilities for defending our country. I hope that in handling the manpower program you will examine into that.

I have never been completely happy about saddling these people

who have done their active duty with all of this Reserve obligation

when a great many people have no duty whatever to their credit.
dn.

NOMINATION OF CARLISLE P. RUNGE, 5

Senator Saltonstall ?

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, I have just one question and

perhaps one observation:

Mr. Runge, you intend to stay in this Department as long as you

are requested to, or at least for 4 years?

Mr. RUNGE. Yes, sir.

It would be my intention to stay as long as the President and Secretary wanted me there, and that I felt that I was able to make a

contribution.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And, secondly, you have shown us your list

of securities on this sheet, and that is all that you have in your family

now?

Mr. RUNGE. Yes, sir.

My other assets are in homestead, real estate, and two other parcels

of land.

If I understand, sir, the rules of the committee, it would appear

that two of these securities, because of the substantial business that

the companies do with the U.S. Government, should be 

Senator SALTONSTALL. I brought that out because my own opinion

would be that, certainly, you would not be required to divest yourself

of any of those securities that you have listed here.

Chairman RUSSELL. The two people that you list here, their business is all done on a bid basis, is it not?

Mr. RUNGE. I believe it is, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. I do not believe there are any negotiated contracts involved at all.

We have had one of these same companies before us on another

occasion.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And the amount here is a very small percentage of their business.

Now, Mr. Secretary, following up what the chairman said, I have

had personally a good deal of criticism that the Reserve program in

which these young men are required to participate or do participate

voluntarily as part of their service, is not made interesting or

stimulating.

Some of these persons have criticized their being ordered to Reserve

training and then there is nothing for them to do. They were told

to go home; they are told to sit around; or the training is purposeless.

It would seem to me following out what the chairman has said,

that it would be very helpful if you would give particular attention

to the programs of the Reserve and the National Guard to see that

they are made interesting and stimulating to the young people who

are required to be in them and to avoid the impression that they are

pulled from their homes or from their studies for no constructive

purpose.

Mr. RUNGE. Yes, Senator Saltonstall.

I will certainly devote myself to the matter of making the Reserve

program as meaningful as possible to the end that it makes a maximum contribution toward our military capability.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 NOMINATION OF CARLISLE P. RUNGE

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Stennis?

Senator STENNIS. Mr. Runge, I do not have any questions except

to say that I think this is a highly important position that you are

going to hold, and a very difficult one.

Some of your predecessors have wrestled with it manfully.

I remember Mr. Burgess was there, and the late Mr. Francis, who

worked very hard, indeed, and Mr. Finucane.

I think it is a great field of service and I hope you can give it all

your attention, because it is a highly important task.

I think you will be rendering a fine service when you do make some

accomplishments in this field.

Reserve Forces have been mentioned. I think most of us value

them, and I think, too, that an effective reserve is one way to save some

money on this vast military program:

To utilize the trained talent that we already have and keep it up

to date.

Do you feel that way about it?

Mr. RUNGE. Yes, Senator.

As you know, I have been actively participating in this very program.

Senator STENNIS. Yes.

Mr. RUNGE. I think that in most cases the people involved are actually giving the Department of Defense a good measure of military capability.

As Senator Saltonstall suggested, there may well be weak spots

in the program, but I shall pledge myself to getting the very most that

We can out of the Reserve component program.

Senator STENNIS. My point is not so much the attitude of the Reserves themselves, but the attitude toward the reservists.

The departments are inclined, I think, to leave the Reserves more

or less as orphans. They do not press for the reserve share of the

budget, for example.

I hope you will be an advocate of the Reserves to that extent and

more.

Mr. RUNGE. Yes, sir.

Senator STEN-NIS. That is all.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Smith?

Senator SMITH. I have no questions.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Symington?

Senator SYlVIINGTO. No questions.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Case?

Senator CASE. No questions.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Bush?

Senator BUSH. No, sir.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Thurmond?

Senator THURMOND. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Beall ?

Senator BEALL. No questions.

Chairman RUSSELL. Senator Cannon?

Senator CANNON.. No questions.

Chairman RUSSELL. Thank you, Mr. Runge.

(Whereupon, the committee proceeded to other matters.)

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