GOVERNMENT

Storage

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INT ERSTA TE AND FOREIGN COMMERCE 

HOUSE OF RE PRESENTATIV ES

EI GH TY -N IN TH CONG RESS

F IR S T SE SS IO N

ON

H.R. 7777

A B IL L TO A U TH O R IZ E T H E P R E SID E N T TO A PPO IN T GEN . 

W IL LI AM F. M oK EE (U .S. A IR FO RC E, R E T IR E D ) TO TH E 

O FFIC E OF A D M IN IS TRA TO R OF T H E FE D E R A L AV IA TION 

AGENCY

MAY 12, 1965

Serial No. 89-10

— — J

48-685

P ri n te d f o r th e u se of the 

Com mitt ee o n In te rs ta te an d For ei gn Co mm erc e

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 1965
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C O M M IT T E E ON IN T E R S T A T E AN D FO R EIG N CO M M ERCE

ORE N H A R R IS , Ark an sa s, C hair m an

H A R L E Y O. STA G G ER S, W es t V ir gin ia

W A L T E R ROGERS, Tex as

SA M U E L N. F R IE D E L , M ar ylan d

T O R B E K T II. M AC DONAL D, M as sa ch us et ts

JO HN JA R M AN , Ok lah om a

LE O W. O ’B R IE N , Ne w Yo rk

JO HN E. M OSS , C alifo rn ia

JO HN D. D IN G E LL. Mich iga n

P A U L G. RO GERS, Fl or id a

H ORACE R. KO R N EG AY, Nor th Car ol in a

L IO N E L V A N D EER LIN , Cal if or nia

J. J. P IC K L E , Te xa s

F R E D B. RO ONEY, Pe nnsy lv an ia

JO HN M. M U R PH Y, Ne w Yo rk

D A V ID E . S A T T E R F IE L D II I, V ir gi nia

D A N IE L J. RO NA N, Illin oi s

J. O LIV A HUOT, Ne w Ha mpshire

JA M ES A. M A CK A Y, Ge orgia

JO HN J. G IL LIG A N , Ohio

C H A R LE S P. F A R N SLE Y . Ken tu ck y

JO HN B E L L W IL LIA M S, M iss iss ip pi

W IL LIA M L. SPR IN G E R , Illinoi s 

J. A R TH U R YOUNGER, Califo rn ia 

SA M U EL L. D EVIN E, Ohio 

AN CH ER N ELS EN , M in ne so ta 

H ASTIN G S K E IT H , M as sa ch us et ts 

W IL LA R D S. CU RTI N, Pen nsy lv an ia 

GLE NN CU NNIN GH AM , Neb ra sk a 

JA M ES T. B R O Y H IL L. N or th Ca ro lin a 

JA M ES H A R V E Y, M ichiga n 

TI M L E E CA R TE R , K en tu ck y 

HOW AR D H. C A LL A W A Y , Ge orgia

W. E. W il liam so n, C le rk

Ken neth J. P ain te r, A s s is ta n t C le rk

P ro fe ssio n a l S ta ff

And rew Stevenson J am es M. Men ge r, Jr,

Kvr t Borchar dt Wil li am J. Dixo n

l l


APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

WED NES DAY, MAY 12, 1965

H ouse of Representatives, 

Committee on I nterstate and F oreign Commerce,

Washington, D.G.

The committee met at 10 a.m., pursuant to call, in room 2123, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Oren H arris (chairman of the committee) presiding.

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Today the committee has met fo r hearings on a bill sent up by the President, which I 

introduced at his request, H.R. 7777, to authorize the President to 

appoint Gen. William F. McKee (U.S. Air Force, retired) to the 

Ofiice of Administrator of the Federal Aviation Agency.

(The bill referred to, and reports thereon, follow :)

[H .R . 7777, S9 tli Cong., 1st se ss .]

A B IL L To au th ori ze th e P re sid e n t to ap poin t G en er al W ill ia m F . McK ee (U ni te d S ta te s Air Fo rce, re ti re d ) to th e office of A dm in is tr ato r of th e Fed er al Avi atio n Ag ency

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of R epresentative s of the United Sta tes

of America in Congress assembled, That, notwithstand ing the provisions of section 

301(b) of the Fed eral Aviation Act of 1958 (49 U.S.C. 134 1(b)), or any other provision of law, the P resident, acting by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, is authorized to app oin t General William F. McKee (United States Air Force, reti red) to the office of the Administrator of th e Fed eral Aviation Agency. General McKee’s a ppo intm ent to, acceptance of, and service in that office shall in no way affect any sta tus , ran k, or grade he may occupy or hold in the United States Air Force or any component thereof, or any emolument, perquisite, righ t, privilege, or benefit incident to or arising out of any such status, office, rank , or 

grade: Provided, Th at so long as he holds the office of Administrat or of the Federa l Aviation Agency, he s hall receive the compensation of th at office a t the rat e 

specified in the Federal Executive Salary Act of 1964 (title II I of the Act of August 14, 1964, Public Law 88-426) and shall retain the ran k and grade which he now holds as an officer on the retired list of the R egu lar Air Force, and shall in addition continue to receive the retired pay to which he is entitled by law, subject to the provisions of the Dual Compensation Act (th e Act of August 19, 1964, 

Public Law 88—448).

Sec. 2. In the perform anc e of his d uties as Administrator of the Federal Avia­ tion Agency, General McKee shall be subje ct to no supervision, control, restriction , or prohibition (m ilitary or otherwise) oth er tha n would be operative w ith respect 

to him if he were not an officer on the retired list of th e Reg ular Air Force.

Sec. 3. It is hereby expressed as the intent of the Congress th at the autho rity 

granted by this Act is not to be construed as approval by the Congress of con­ tinu ing appointme nts of militar y men to th e office of Administrator of the F ede ral 

Aviation Agency in th e fu tur e.

1
2 APPOI NT MEN T OF FAA ADM INISTRA TOR

Executive Office of the President,

Bureauofthe Budget,

Washington, D.C., May 13,1963.

Hon. Oren Harris,

Chairman, Comm ittee on Inte rstate and Foreign Commerce,

House of Repr esen tatives, Washington, D.C.

Dear Mr. Chairman : This is in reply to your request of May 5, 1965, for the

views of the Bureau of the Budget on H.R. 7777. to authorize the President to 

appoint Gen. William F. McKee (U.S. Air Force, re tire d) to the office of Administra tor of the Feder al Aviation Agency.

The Bureau of th e Bud get favors the enactment of H.R. 7777.

Sincerely yours,

Phil lip S. Hughes.

Assista nt Director fo r Legislative Referen ce.

U.S. Civil Service Commission.

Washington, D.C., Mag 11, 1963.

Hon. Oren Harris,

Chairman, Committee on Intersta te and Foreign Commerce,

Long worth House Office Building.

Dear Mr. Chairman : This is in furth er reply to your request of May 5, 1965, 

for the Commission's views on H.R. 7777, a bill to authorize the President to 

appo int Gen. William F. McKee (U.S. A ir Force, ret ire d) to the office of Administrator of the Fede ral Aviation Agency.

Section 301(b) of the Feder al Aviation Act of 1958 (49 U.S.C. 134 1(b)) 

requires that the Ad ministrator of the Fed eral Aviation Agency be a civilian “at 

the time of his nomination.” H.R. 7777 would permit the appointment of Genera l McKee, a retired Air Force officer, as Administrator without regard to this 

requirement. If so appointed, General McKee would receive the salary of the 

Administrator as specified in the Fed eral Executiv e S alary Act of 1964, and would 

continue to receive his military retired pay, subject to the provisions of the 

Dual Compensation Act.

The Commission has no objection to the enactment of H.R. 7777, since its 

provisions are consistent with the policies on the Federal civilian employment 

of reti red militar y personnel established by the Dual Compensation Act.

The Bureau of the B udget advises that from the standpo int of the a dm ini stration’s program there is no objection to the submission of this report.

By direction of the Commission:

Sincerely yours.

J ohn W. Macy, Jr., C/iatrw-ffM.

Department of the Air Force,

Office of the Secretary,

Washington, May 11,1963.

Hon. Oren Harris,

Chairman, Comm ittee on Intersta te and Foreign Commerce,

House of Representatives.

Dear Mr. Chairman : Reference is made to your reques t to the Secretary of 

Defense for the views of the Department of Defense with respect to H.R. 7777, 

89th Congress, a bill to authorize the President to appo int Gen. William F. 

McKee (U.S. Air Force, retired) to the office of Administrator of the Fed eral 

Aviation Agency. The Secretary of Defense has delegated to the Department 

of the Air Force the responsibility for expressing the views of the Dep artm ent 

of Defense.

The purpose of H.R. 7777 is to authorize the Preside nt, by and with the advice 

and consent of the Senate, to appoint Gen. William F. McKee (U.S. Air Force, 

retired) as Administrator of the Federal Aviation Agency and authorize General McKee to retain the rank , grade, and emoluments of his milita ry sta tus 

while holding the office of Administrator. FAA. subject to the provisions of the 

Dual Compensation Act.

The Departm ent of the Air Force, on beh alf of the Departm ent of Defense, 

recommends H.R. 7777 be enacted by th e Congress.
APPOINT MEN T OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 3

By th e te rm s of th e bi ll th e prop osed au th o ri ty wou ld ap ply on ly to Gen . 

W illiam F . Mc Kee (U .S. A ir F or ce , re ti re d ).

Se cti on 30 1( b) of t h e F ed era l A viatio n Agency Ac t of 1958 pr ov id es th a t a per ­

son . a t th e tim e of hi s no m in at io n as A dm in is tr at or, sh al l no t ho ld m il it ary 

st atu s. G en eral McKee, in his pr es en t po sitio n w ith th e N at io nal A er on au tics 

and Space A dm in is tr at io n, under th e em ploy men t la w s fo r th a t ag en cy is p erm it te d to re ta in hi s m il it ary sta tu s and be ne fit s ac cr uin g th er et o. In ac ce pt in g 

th e po sitio n as A d m in is tr ato r of the F edera l A vi atio n Ag ency, un der th e cu rr en t 

la w s ap plic ab le to th a t ag en cy , Gen eral Mc Ke e wou ld not be pe rm itte d to re ­

ta in hi s m il it ary sta tu s and th er ef ore wou ld in cur a g re a t fina nc ial loss. E nactm en t of H.R. 7777 wou ld w ai ve th e re str ic ti ons im po se d by section 30 1( b) of 

th e Federa l A vi at io n Act of 1958 w ith re sp ec t to G en er al McK ee an d th er eb y 

p erm it him to re ta in his m il it ary sta tu s an d th e be ne fit s ac cr uin g th er eto, su bje c t to th e D ua l C om pe ns at io n Act. Thi s legi slatio n, ex ce pt fo r th e co mpe nsa ti on prov isions , is si m il ar to th a t en ac te d by Con gress to au th or iz e G en er al of 

th e A rm y Georg e C. M ars hall to s er ve a s S ec re ta ry of D efen se .

E nac tm en t of H.R . 7777 wou ld no t re su lt in an y in cr ea se d bud get ar y re q u ir em en ts w ith in th e D ep art m en t of t he A ir F orce .

T his re port has be en co or din at ed w ithin th e D epart m ent of Defen se in ac ­

co rd an ce w ith p ro ce du re s pre sc ribed b y th e Sec re ta ry o f D efen se.

The B ure au of th e B udget ad vi se s th at, fr om th e st andpoin t of th e adm in ­

is tr a ti o n ’s pr og ra m, th ere i s no o bjec tio n to th e pre se nta ti on o f th is re port fo r th e 

co nsi der at io n of th e co m m itt ee .

Sinc erely ,

E ugene M. Zuc kebt.

F ederal Avia tio n Agency,

Off ic e of th e Adm ini str ator,

Washington, D.C., May 11,1965.

Hon . Oren Har ris,

Chairman, Committee on I ntersta te and Foreign Commerce,

House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.

Dear Mr. Cha ir man : T his is in resp on se to yo ur re ques t fo r th e view s of th is 

Ag ency on H.R. 7777, a bi ll to au th ori ze th e P re si dent to ap poin t Gen . W illiam 

F. Mc Ke e (U.S. A ir Fo rc e, re ti re d ) to the office of A dm in is tr ato r of th e F ed ­

era l A viatio n Agency.

Ado ption of th is bi ll is nece ss ar y to mak e G en er al McK ee eligible fo r nom in ation under s ec tio n 3 01( b) of th e F ed er al A vi at io n Act of 1958.

T his Agenc y fa vo rs th e adoption of th e bi ll in ord er to fa cil it ate th e entr ance 

of G en er al McKee on his d u ti es as A dm in is tr ato r in ac co rd an ce w ith th e an ­

no un ce d in te nt io n of t h e P re sid en t to app oi nt h im to th a t post.

The B ure au of th e B udget h as ad vi se d th a t th er e is no ob jection fr om th e 

st andpoin t of the ad m in is tr ati o n ’s pr og ra m to th e su bm ission of th is re port to 

vo ur co mmittee .

Sinc erely ,

X. E. Halau x. Administrator.

The Chairman. We are very glad to have the Honorable John AV. 

Macy, Jr., Chairman of th e U.S. Civil Service Commission, as a witness this morning to present to the committee the facts and information regarding this bill in order that the committee may know just 

what the problem is and what will be necessary under the circumstances.

Mr. Macy, we welcome you and appreciate your appearance here to 

develop the facts on this subject in order that the committee may have 

the benefit of your knowledge.

STA TEM ENT OF HON. JO HN W. MACY. JR ., CHAIR MA N. U.S. CIVIL 

SERV ICE COMMISSION

Mr. M act. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. T want to 

than k you for arra ngin g this hearing and affording me the opportunity to testify in support of H.R. 7777.
4 APPO INTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

Upon learning of Najeeb Halaby’s desire to resign as Administrator of the Federal Aviation Agency, the President felt it very important that his successor be one who knew the aviation industry tho roughly and had the full confidence of its leaders, who knew the problems of all those who fly, and who had the experience of managing a 

large organization with an aviation mission.

There is great need today to press forward in all areas of aviation; 

for example, in the design and development of the supersonic tra nsport, in fu rther advancing the cause of air safety and convenience, and 

in applying the latest technological progress in the interest of the 

flying public.

I know that all members of this committee share the President's 

objective in seeking a very able and experienced executive and policy 

adviser for this post.

Gen. William F. McKee possesses there essential qualities. During 

his long and successful career with the U.S. Air Force, he has been 

responsible for research and development, procurement and supply, 

tran sport and operations.

Fo r 9 years he had command and management responsibility for 

the Air Materiel Command, the logistical element of the Air Force. 

In this capacity he directed the work of more than 150,000 civilian 

employees engaged in aviation occupations and professions th roug hout the country and abroad.

In addition, lie has acquired important experience during the past 

year in evaluating the program of the National Aeronautics and Space 

Administration in advanced science and technology. He has reviewed 

all aspects of NASA’s operations, p articu larly relating to aeronautical 

research and development, from the standpoint of their adequacy and 

value.

General McKee has a broad understanding of problems in the aviation field necessary to advise the President and the Congress wisely 

on the difficult policy questions to be faced, and the demonstrated 

executive ability and confidence of leaders in the aviation field necessary to carry out policy decisions effectively.

Section 301(b) of the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 provides that 

the Administrator “at the time of his nomination shall be a civilian.”

Consequently, unless the Congress otherwise authorizes, General 

McKee would be eligible f or appointment as A dministrator only if he 

resigns his commission and forfeits his status as a retired officer of the 

Regular Air Force.

This would involve an immediate and unreasonable financial sacrifice and would subject his family to the risk of being denied, in the 

event of his death, the benefits of his present retired status. These 

benefits he earned through distinguished service to his country.

The bill you are now considering to meet this situation is modeled 

after the act of September 18, 1950, which authorized the President 

to appoint General of the Army George C. Marshall to the Office of 

Secretary of Defense as an exception to the requirement tha t the 

Office of Secretary be held only by a civilian.

Section 1 of H.R. 7777 would authorize the President, acting by 

and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to appoint General 

McKee as FA A Administrator, and would permit General McKee to 

reta in his status as a retired Air Force officer, subject to the provisions 

of th e Dual Compensation Act.
AP PO INTM EN T OF FAA ADM INIS TRA TOR 5

The Government’s policies regarding the employment of retired 

military officers in Federal civilian posts were thoroughly reviewed 

by the Congress last year in its consideration of the Dual Compensation Act.

In fact, the traditional dual compensation restrictions were modified in that law to permit the Government to utilize the skills and experience of retired military personnel in civilian posts.

Such was the intent of Congress last year. Section 201 of t hat act 

permits retired regular officers to receive the full compensation of any 

civilian office to which they may be appointed, but requires tha t their 

military retired pay be reduced d uring their civilian employment.

Under the formula specified by the Congress fo r the reduction of 

retired pay the retiree receives the first $2,000 of his retired pay, plus 

one-half of the remainder, if any. Section 1 of H.R. 7777 would 

require such a reduction in General McKee’s retired pay in accordance 

with this sta tutory standard.

Section 2 of H.R. 7777 provides tha t General McKee, while serving 

as FAA Administrator, shall be subject to no supervision, control, 

restriction, or prohibition (military or otherwise) because of his 

status as a retired Regular A ir Force officer.

As Administrator he will, of course, be subject to the supervision of 

the President and will report to him on his stewardship of this office.

Section 3 of H.R. 7777 expresses the intent of Congress tha t the 

authority granted by the enactment of the bill is not to be construed 

as approval by the Congress of continuing appointments of military 

men to the Office of FAA A dministrato r in the future.

Under the provisions of the Fe dera l Aviation Act of 1958 a Deputy 

Administrator position is established. Tha t position may be filled by 

the President through appointment of “an officer on active duty with 

the armed services.”

But the statute, anticipating a situation similar to that faced today, 

makes clear tha t “if the Adm inistrato r is a former Regular officer 

of any one of the armed services, the Deputy Adm inistrator shall not 

be an officer on active duty with one of the armed services or a retired 

Regular officer or a former Regular officer of one of the armed 

services.”

The President intends to meet that statutory requirement with the 

appointment of a civilian to the deputy post to be associated with 

General McKee in the leadership of this im portant agency.

In fact, the President has selected and will shortly announce his 

intention to a appoint a highly qualified career professional from the 

agency to this office of Deputy Adm inistrator.

We support the concept in the original legislation tha t the Federal 

Aviation Agency A dministrator should generally be a civilian. We 

believe tha t the Agency should bear the stamp of civilian leadership 

over the long term. However, we believe that an exception should 

be made at this time because of the exceptional and a ppro priate qualifications possessed by General McKee.

If II.R. 7777 is approved, General McKee’s appointment will be 

consistent with the policies established by the Congress in the Dual 

Compensation Act for the appointment of retired Regular officers to 

Federal civilian posts.

The President has already advised the Congress tha t he regards 

this legislation as both important and urgent. I therefore respect48-6 85—‘65 -----2
6 APPOINTM EN T OF FAA ADM INISTRATOR

fu lly urge this committee to give pro mp t and fav orable con sidera ­

tion to II.K. 7777.

Th an k you for the op po rtu ni ty to offer this testim ony.

I am certa inly availab le to you and the mem bers of th e committee 

fo r any questions you may w ish to add ress to me concern ing this bill.

Th e Chairm an. Th an k you. Mr. Macy. 1 hav e ju st two points. 

You hav e made you r position and the position of the Pr es id en t very 

cle ar and I think it is a com mendable state ment on yo ur par t to rea lly 

prese nt the facts so clea rly an d succinct as you have.

Bu t, No. 1. you have e xp lai ned what you prop ose here is in keepi ng 

with the policy of the dual com pen sation law which th e Congress pr ovided. Gen eral McKee is presen tly employe d under th at act, is he 

not ?

Mr. Macy. That is correct, sir.

Th e ( hair man. Wh ere is he em ployed ?

Mr. M act. li e is emp loyed at the presen t time as an Assistant 

Adm in istra tor of the Na tio nal Ae ron autic and Space Ad mi nis tra tio n.

The Chairman. Whic h is a civ ilia n agen cy of the Governme nt ?

Mr. M acy. Yes, sir.

Th e Chairman. And af te r all. this would pe rm it him the n to be 

tran sf er re d o r to go fr om one civ ilia n agen cy of the G ove rnm ent u nder 

the prese nt law to an othe r civ ilian agency of the Government and to 

assum e th at res ponsibility un de r prec isely the same terms ?

Mr. Macy. Th at is ge ne rally correct with one amend ment. Mr. 

Ch air ma n. Un der this Du al Comp ensatio n Act, as passed by Con ­

gres s last y ear , th e A dm in istra to r of NA SA ha s a special au thor ity fo r 

the appo int me nt of retired m ili ta ry personnel wi tho ut any redu ction 

in the r eti rem ent pay.

However, the applicat ion of th at act with resp ect to oth er civilian 

posts would require the red uc tio n th at is inc orporat ed in th at act.

The Chairm an. An d it it conte mp lated th at the red uctio n as you 

expla ine d here would be in effect ?

Mr. Macy. Yes, s ir; un de r the terms of the D ual Comp ensatio n Act 

of 1964.

The C hairman. Now the ot he r p oin t. I t hi nk th e fa ct th at Ge neral 

McKee has ha d treme ndous exjierience in th is field and in the ma nagement of. as you exp lain ed, 150,000 civ ilian emp loye es certai nly is v aluable experience. The directi on of the Fe deral Av iatio n Agency is a 

high ly im po rta nt re sponsib ility.

Bu t do T u nders tan d in ad ditio n the ret o th at it is contem pla ted t ha t 

the Pr esiden t is seekin g someone who is kno wledgeable in the pa rtic ­

ul ar field and can give special pr im ar y att en tio n to the possibi lity of 

the dev elopment of supersonic p lanes?

Mr. M acy. Yes, M r. Ch airm an . The Presiden t has assign ed to the 

Fe de ral Aviation Agency th e res ponsibility fo r determ ining the feasibility of th e design and man uf ac ture of a supersonic tran sp ort f or th e 

Un ite d Sta tes. Tn view of th at assi gnm ent, the Pr es id en t felt th at it 

was p artic ul arly im po rta nt a t th is state in th e hist ory o f this Agency to 

hav e a man who had had exte nsiv e experien ce in res earch and develop ­

ment an d procureme nt wi th respec t to new aviat ion systems and new 

airc ra ft.

An d it was the Pr esiden t’s view th at Gen eral McK ee was uniquely 

qualified to take on th at res ponsibi lity as well as the othe r resp onsi-
APPOINTM EN T OF FAA ADM INIS TRA TOR 7

bilities assigned to the Adm inistrato r of the Agency unde r the Federal Aviation Act.

The Chairman. Have you not in yonr responsibility been also given 

a much broader responsibility of trying to find people knowledgeable, 

capable, able to fill certain positions of the Federal Government?

Mr. Macy. Yes, Mr. Chairman. The President has asked that, in 

addition to my duties as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, 

I assist him in reviewing the names of potential candidates for Presidential appointments.

The Chairman. In your position as Chairman of the Civil Service 

Commission and with this broad responsibility, you have ha d occasion, 

have you not, to analyze and observe the experience and background 

and trainin g of General McKee ?

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir, I have. I have known General McKee through 

much of my Government career, but have known him particularly well 

during the past 4 years.

The Chairman. Would you say from the study that you have made 

and from an analysis of his record that he would be especially qualified 

for this tremendous and im portant task ?

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir; tha t is both my official and personal view. He 

is highly and uniquely qualified for this particular position.

The Chairman. Do you have any questions ?

Mr. Staggers. Mr. Chairman, I gather tha t you are in general agreement, with the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 which provides that the 

head of this Agency shall be a civilian.

Mr. Macy. Yes, I am.

Mr. Staggers. Would it be agreeable with you if this committee 

should say that in the future the President should make this a civilian 

appointment?

Mr. Macy. I would feel, Mr. Staggers, tha t this would be a matter 

of judgment for (he Congress. It is always difficult for us to see into 

the long-range future, but clearly it is the view of the President that 

the civilian characteristics of the leadership of this Agency, as specified 

by the act, represents a desirable pattern for the long term and tha t if 

it were not for General McKee’s unique qualifications and the particular demands of this assignment at this time which tend to match his 

qualifications, he would not be asking for this exception.

Mr. Staggers. It is understood if there is an emergency or some particular cause, of course, you could come back, but I just wanted to get 

this clear.

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Staggers. Thank you.

The Chairman. Mr. Springer, do you have any questions?

Mr. Springer. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Macy, did you say the President consults you on these appointments?

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Springer. Did he consult you on this one?

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Springer. If this is not invading the prerogative of the Executive, was anyone else considered ?

Mr. M acy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Springer. Without naming anybody, how many others were 

considered ?
8 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. Macy. That is a difficult question to answer because there are 

varying degrees of consideration.

Mr. Springer. In your best judgment.

Mr. Macy. Let me say that there were at least a half a dozen individuals considered.

Mr. Springer. Out of the half dozen, without naming the others, 

were any of the others m ilitary ?

Mr. Macy. No.

Mr. Springer. All of the others were civilian ?

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Springer. Were all of the others highly qualified ?

Mr. M acy. In varying degrees.

Mr. Springer. When this act was written, I remember the discussions 

which went into this act on this pa rticular problem th at the Adminis­ trator should be a civilian. And I remember the hours this committee 

pored over this question as to what it meant as was there a chance that 

we were not going to have it.

You say you are in agreement with that policy, right?

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Springer. II owt many Administrators have there been thus 

far?

Mr. Macy. Three.

Mr. Springer. Can you name those?

Mr. Macy. Y es. The first one was Elwood Quesada, appointed by 

President Eisenhower, shortly after the act was passed. The second one was Najeeb Ilalaby, the present Administrator, appointed by 

President Kennedy. And the President has indicated his intention to 

nominate General McKee as the third one.

Mr. S pringer. Since 1958 ?

Mr. Macy. Since 1958.

Mr. Springer. All right. Now’ tha t is a total of 7 years and you 

have had three Administrators including the suggested one.

The Chairman. You have had two so far.

Mr. Springer. He used the word “three” and he is assuming this 

man would be confirmed.

This makes two out of three noncivilians ?

Mr. Macy. Yes.

Mr. Springer. Are w’e following the act very well ?

Mr. Macy. I think tha t to answer tha t question, the act has been 

followed in th at in the case of General Quesada he was a civilian at 

the time he was appointed to this position. He did have a military 

background. The arrangements were made for him to serve. My own 

view’ is that the provision fo r civilian leadership has been safeguarded.

In this particular instance, as I have indicated in my testimony, the 

conditions are special and w arran t this exception.

Mr. Springer. Let us assume that he is a highly qualified man and 

he doubtless is. Would you assume tha t w’e could not get a civilian 

Administrator with the same qualifications?

Mr. Macy. I don’t believe I am in a position to answer that.

Mr. Springer. I think w’e would have to assume th at both Quesada 

and Halaby have been excellent Administrators. The thing that disturbs me is that we talked about this question of a civilian and two 

out of three of the first Administrators are going to be military men. 

And I thin k we certainly could not say others have not been qualified.
APPOINT MEN T OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 9

I think General Quesada had very high qualifications. This question of policy which we established in this act in the beginning, it 

seems to me, ought to have pretty strong connotations.

Mr. Macy. I believe th at it does. And yet at the same time it 

would be my view tha t there should be a consideration at points in 

time where there is a change in the Adm inistrator to evaluate what 

the needs are at tha t time and seek the best person to meet those needs.

Mr. Springer. I am not going to argue with the President of the 

United States on his appointment except tha t I do believe tha t here 

is where we ought to air this question of whether or not a civilian 

ought to be appointed to this position. Now, I remember there was 

a lot of discussions the first time.

As I understood when th is act was passed the possibility was tha t 

the Deputy Adm inistrator would probably be a military man. But 

the th ough t was th at this ought to be in charge of a civilian. I think 

the reason was t hat you were essentially dealing with a civilian m atter, domestic aviation, international aviation. It had to do with 

prim arily civilian aspects and that is why we ought to have a civilian 

Administrator of the Agency rath er than a military man.

With the development of supersonic planes, in which this committee has been very active and having made one trip to Europe to talk 

to the French about their possibility a year or two ago, don’t you 

think that on this whole thing tha t a civilian can look at this in 

perspective better than a military man can ?

Mr. Macy. Mr. Springer, mv own personal view is tha t you look 

more a t a man and his qualities than what kind of service or career 

or uniform he has had. It seems to me that in our good fortune in 

having General McKee, we have a man who combines the qualifications tha t are called for at this particular time.

When this committee was considering the original legislation, they 

were putting together a new agency. It was an agency that was 

assembled from the Civil Aeronautics Administration, from some 

portions of this Civil Aeronautics Board, the air coordinating activity and certain activities from Defense.

I think the Congress constructed an effective agency. I think it has 

become an institution that has effectively carried out the intent of 

Congress. It has moved ahead to apply the technology that has developed during the intervenin g period of time. The systems have 

been updated to afford greater safety and greater speed.

We now have this very imp orta nt additional project that has been 

assigned to this Agency. It is assigned in relation to its other activities. I believe in view of tha t we are warranted-----

Air. Springer. I don’t want to interrupt you at all but I want to 

get a little more to the point.

Mr. Macy. That is all right.

Mr. Springer. Let us assume the supersonic plane is very important. 

The F AA Administrator, though, I would say a great majority of his 

duties, I would say 80 percent, have to do with everyday civilian 

aviation.

Mr. Macy. I don't have any percentage distribution.

Mr. Springer. That is my understanding. Even with the supersonic plane, still 80 percent of his time is still going to be spent on 

civil aviation. Does he have any particular qualifications in the administering of civilian aviation ?
10 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. Macy. Oh. yes. I feel tha t the systems that he has administered 

in the Air Force are very closely related to the systems that are in 

civilian aviation.

Mr. Springer. Can yon name some of the systems he has administered ?

Mr. Macy. The air traffic control systems, the systems of aircraft 

inspections, the systems of providing the necessary supplies for air ­

craft, the involvement in the training of pilots and crewmembers. 

These are all activities that although performed for a military purpose 

still are functionally very similar to those that are involved in civilian 

aviation.

Mr. Springer. I go for a moment to the question of retirement to be 

sure it is clarified. I did not understand from the question asked by the 

chairman as to what his retirement situation would be if he accepted 

the position under this legislation and assuming the legislation is 

passed, and signed by the President.

Mr. Macy. Mr. Springer, let me be precise about that. If this legislation were enacted and the President’s nomination is confirmed by the 

Senate, General McKee, as Administrator, would receive the authorized 

salary of $30,000. In addition, under the terms of the Dual Compensation Act, he would receive the first $2,000 of his retired pay plus 50 

percent of the balance. This would mean th at he would receive $8,400 

in retired pay.

Mr. Springer. In other words, his total income would be $30,000?

Mr. Macy. Nearly $39,000.

Mr. Springer. What is it at the present time, approximately ?

Mr. Macy. At the present time he occupies a civilian post which pays 

$24,500. And under the exception in the dual-compensation statute 

relating to NASA, he is receiving his full retired pay which amounts 

to $14,800.

Mr. Springer. So tha t he is now receiving approximately $39,000 or 

$40,000?

Mr. Macy. That is correct.

Mr. Springer. Under this-----

Mr. Macy. Under this, he would receive $38,400.

Mr. Springer. So for all practical purposes it is approximately the 

same.

Mr. Macy. He would receive under this legislation $900 less gross 

compensation than he does at the present time.

Mr. Springer. How is this reflected in taxable income ? Would tha t 

be about the same ?

Mr. Macy. About the same.

Mr. Keith. Would the gentleman yield at that point ?

Mr. Springer. Yes.

Mr. Keith. In terms of this legislation as you suggest in section 201, 

his drawing the full compensation of the new position will entitle him 

to pension benefits under the Civil Service Act in later years.

Mr. Macy. If he meets the eligibility requirements.

Mr. Keith. And tha t is 5 years ?

Mr. Macy. If he served 5 years he would establish a vested right 

under t he civil service retirement system.

Mr. Keith. How many years does he now have in NASA ?

Mr. Macy. He has approximately 1 year in NASA.
APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 11

Mr. Keith. S o in an a dd ition al 4 ye ars he would be e ntitled to partic ipation in a no ther pension plan?

Mr. Macy. T hat is correct.

Mr. K eit h. An d would he n ot receive cre dit fo r m ili ta ry service to 

the ex ten t of 5 yea rs ?

Mr. Macy. On ly if he fo rfeits his m ili tary pay . In othe r words, 

he can not use the same pe rio d o f service to esta blish c ove rage und er two 

retir em en t plans.

Mr. K ei th . S o he, in effect, becom es elig ible ------

Mr. Macy. So he would be eli gib le fo r an an nu ity based on 5 ye ars 

of civ ilian serv ice on top of th e mili tary . Or if he would elect to 

fo rfei t his m ili ta ry he would then receive a civil serv ice retire me nt 

an nu ity based on his com bined m ilitar y and civ ilian service.

Mr. K ei th . So t he p ension at th e end of 5 y ears wou ld be roughly 

12i,£ perce nt of his top 5 years ?

Mr. Macy. Yes.

Air. K ei th . Tha nk you, Mr. C ha irm an .

Mr. Sprin ger. May I ask one quest ion ? As Ch airm an of t he C ivil 

Ser vice Com mission, you pr im ar ily rep res ent those who are civ ilia ns 

in the ir appo int me nt. Is th at corre ct ?

Mr. Macy. I don’t feel I repr es en t any pa rtic ul ar g roup . My concern is e xclusively with the civilia n side of Fe de ral emplo ym ent , th at 

is correct.

Air. Sprin ger. I can rem ember when we ha d Quesada up he re on 

the same que stio n, and he resign ed. We di dn ’t make the wa ive r, bu t 

we finally reinsta ted him.

Air. AIacy. li e resigned, bu t you autho riz ed his reinsta temen t fo llow ing his c ompletion of service as Ad minist rator.

Air. S tringer. Did we au tho riz e t h at in the legis lation ?

Air. Macy. I t is my un de rsta nd in g th at it was a pr ivate bill th at 

autho riz ed th at .

Air. Sprin ger. T hat was af te r he ha d finished his term of office. 

Is th at co rre ct ?

Mr. AIacy. I believe the pr iv at e bill was introd uced while he was 

in office. The re was a com mitment at the tim e of t he pas sag e of the 

leg islati on th at i f he were A dm in istrat or , th ere w ould b e this ar ra ng ement.

As I rec all the record, an d I was no t here in W ashing ton at th at 

pa rtic ul ar time , he was th e repr es en tativ e of the E ise nhow er ad mi nis ­

tra tio n, with res pect to the proposed legisla tion, and worke d very 

closely wi th this committee and the Senate committee, and it was generally known that he would become th e A dm in istrator if th e le gis lation 

was pas sed.

I believe th at th at was the histo ric al develop ment of this.

Air. Sprin ger. I will say, Air. Ch airm an , th at I am som ew hat disturbed th at we a re not hav ing a civ ilian a ppo inte e. I was inclined to 

believe th at even when Qu esa da wa s appoint ed th at was pr ob ab ly no t 

the t hi ng to do, and I went alo ng w ith it, but I di dn 't assume th at we 

were go ing to come in every o ther tim e with a m ili ta ry A dm in istra tor.

I wan t to say th at I may go alon g wi th th is leg islati on , but 1 am 

go ing to p ut on notic e from now on I am not.

We are go ing to follow, inso far as I have th e respon sib ility th e purpose fo r which this leg islation was construc ted , an d th at is we are 

going to have civ ilia n appointees at the head of th is Agenc y.
12 AP PO INTM EN T OF FAA ADM INIS TRA TOR

I think tha t was the purpose of the act, and I think it ought to be 

followed.

Mr. Macy. I understand.

Mr. Springer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Tha t is another one of the paradoxes that we live in. 

We said when the act was written we were going to expect a civilian 

Administrator, but at the same time we did it with the full knowledge 

tha t General Quesada was going to be the Administrator.

He came here and worked with us and testified for it, and he told us 

frankly that he was going to become the head of it, and yet the committee did accept what was proposed with that understanding.

1 say that is another one of the paradoxes that we live in in this 

country.

Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Rogers of Texas. Mr. Macy, the only issue involved here actually is whether or not the Congress is going to force General McKee 

to give up the benefits and the retirement that he has earned during 

his military service in order to take this job.

Mr. Macy. Tha t is what it boils down to, Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Rogers of Texas. Because if he resigned and gave up all of the 

benefits that he has acquired, and the President wanted to appoint him, 

and the Senate wanted to confirm him, there is nothing in the world 

to keep him from serving, is there?

Mr. Macy. No. By resigning, he would become a civilian, and meet 

the test in the statute, but we would l)e asking him to fo rfeit the benefits of 35 years of military service.

Mr. R ogers of Texas. So actually we have not the question of the 

civilian against the military man, we have the question of whether or 

not you are going to force a man to give up things he has earned in 

order to serve his country.

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rogers of Texas. Thank you.

The Chairman. Mr. Younger?

Mr. Y ounger. I would like to pursue this question of retirement a 

little bit.

You say the general has 35 years of military service ?

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir. He graduated from West Point in 1929.

Mr. Younger. Does the retirem ent plan that would be available to 

him if he served 5 years follow the same kind of a plan that we have 

in the Congress?

Mr. Macy. The formula is a lift le reduced.

I am watching my words very carefully. The percentage of salary 

authorized in the computation is somewhat lower tha n the one applicable to Members of Congress. However, if you wish to figure it, 

roughly it come out to slightly less than 2 percent a year.

I thin k I answered “Yes” to 12% percent. It would be closer to 10 

percent of his high 5 years of salary in computing his annuity, if he 

served 5 years in a civilian status.

Mr. Younger. Yes. But under our plan we get whatever years we 

had in the military free. If t ha t was available to him, say he got 2 

percent for each year. He would start in with 70 percent of his $30,000, 

plus the additional which would make the maximum percentage of 75 

percent of $30,000 in his retirem ent, so that he would greatly benefit
APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 13

his retirement over and above the $16,000 he is getting from the military. Is that possible ?

Mr. M ACY. My answer to Mr. Keith was that he would only be 

able to draw tha t kind of a civilian annuity if he agreed to forfeit 

his military retirement.

Mr. Younger. lie would forfeit $16,000 for 75 percent of $30,000.

Mr. Keith. Will the gentleman yield at that point ?

Mr. Macy. There are certain other benefits that go with his military 

pay.

Mr. Younger. Yes; I will yield to you.

Mr. Keith. You cannot get any number of years at 2 ^ percent 

from the congressional military service. It is limited to 5 years at 

percent, and I believe that for successive years it is 114 percent.

Mr. Younger. For the military sendee ?

Mr. K eith. Tha t is correct.

Mr. Younger. That is what I am trying to get at. IIow much 

allowance would he have for his 35 years military service? Would 

he only have 5 vears, or could you compute the whole 35 ?

Mr. M acy. If he counted all of his service, it would come out to 

roughly 70 to 75 percent of his salary.

Mr. Younger. That is wliat I am trying to get at. So he could very 

well forfe it his military pension at $16,000, on the chance of getting 

70 or 75 percent of $30,000, if he finished 4 years more.

He has 1 year already in Government civilian service, and if he 

had 4 more years as FAA Administrator, then he would be eligible 

for civilian pension. Is tha t correct ?

Mr. Macy. If he forfeited his military retirement, which he has 

now, it would mean he would also forfeit the survivorship benefits 

tha t are under the military retirement plan, as well.

The Chairman. Which are not under the other plan ?

Mr. Macy. If he were to acquire survivorship coverage under the 

civil service plan, he would, of course, have to accept a reduced annuity 

in order to acquire that coverage.

I apologize. I don’t have all of this worked out.

Mr. Younger. I think for the record it ought to be pu t in, exactly 

what the status would be in case he forfeited his military pension and 

filled his 5 years in Government service, just what would be his 

pension at tha t time under civil service.

Mr. Macy. All right. I will get my computer out and provide an 

answer for the record.

Mr. Younger. You can very easily get tha t from Secretary McNamara. I understand he is an expert at computers.

Mr. Macy. I have one in the Commission, too.

(Information furnished is as follows:)

U .S . Civ il Ser vice C o m m is sio n .

"Washington, D.C., May 18, 1965.

H o n . Oren H arris ,

Chairman, Committee on In terstate and Foreign Commerce,

Longwo rth House Office Building.

Dear Mr. Chairman : Durin g t he hearings on H.R. 7777 on May 12,1965, Representative Younger asked for inform atio n rega rdin g the amount of civil service 

ann uity General McKee would be entitled to if he is appointed as FAA Admini str ato r and serves in t hat position until he acq uires a total of 5 years civilian 

service.

4 8 -6 8 5— 65 3
14 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

General McKee entered civilian Feder al service on September 1, 1964, in his presen t po st w ith NASA, an d has been subject to the Civil Service Retirement Act since th at time. Assuming he leaves NASA on June 30, 1965, and continues in civilian employment as FAA Ad ministrator from and after July 1, 1965, he will complete 5 years of civilian service on August 31, 1969. He will then be p ast age 62 and eligible to retire on an immedia te civil service annuity. Upon so retiring , he could choose to reta in his milita ry retired pay and draw civil service ann uity computed on civilian service only, or he could waive the retired pay and have the annuity computed on civilian and creditable militar y service combined. Because General McKee apparently will be eligible for social security benefits at age 62, his m ilitary service after December 31, 1956, cannot be credited toward annu ity under the Retirem ent Act even though he waives military 

retired pay. Based on these projections and on the furth er assumptions th at (1) FAA sal ary will be $30,000 a year, and (2) the maximum surv ivorship protection for spouse will be chosen under the Retirem ent Act, General McKee’s civil service annuity rat es (reduced to provide benefit to widow) would be approxim ately as 

sta ted in the following ta bl e:

Annual benefit ra tes 1

If re ti re d p ay reta in ed If reti re d p ay w ai ve d

R et ir ee W id ow R eti re e W id ow

C iv il se rv ic e a n n u it y _______ -------------------------

M il it ary r eti re d p ay 2

$2,12 4 

14,808

$1,200

3,702

$18,348 $11,040

3,702

T ota l ___________ ________ ______ - 16,932 4,902 18,348 14,742

1

 Ben ef it to re ti re e co m men ce s Sen t. 1.1 969: ben efi t to w id ow c om m en ce s up o n d eath of re tire e. 2 W id ow 's b en ef it e le cted an d purc hase d u n d e r pr ov is io ns o f ch. 73, ti tl e 10, U n it ed S ta te s Cod e.

If you wish any other inform atio n rela ting to General McKee’s status, please 

let me know.

Sincerely yours, J ohn W. Macy, Jr., Chairman.

Mr. Younger. One other question. You say, “Upon learning of Mr. 

Halaby’s desire t o resign * * *.” Do you know when that was learned ?

Mr. Macy. I don’t know the precise date, Mr. Younger. It was some 

time ago.

Mr. Younger. There is a story going around here on the Hill, I don’t 

know whether it is true or not, that Mr. Halaby learned of it when 

the announcement was made of his successor.

Mr. Macy. I believe tha t story, as well as the early stories about his 

desire to leave, are both somewhat exaggerated.

Mr. Younger. They are bo th exaggerated?

Mr. Macy. Y es.

Mr. Younger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. I notice a fine group of high school students, here. 

I understand they come from th e district that our colleague, Mr. Nelsen, represents. I know all of the members of the committee join me in giving a very cordial welcome to you, but I don’t believe it would be complete without perm itting Mr. Nelsen to welcome this fine group.

Air. Nelsen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sure all of you noticed the fine group of future voters that came 

throu gh the door. Coming from a district th at has repeatedly shown good judgment, I want to thank the chairman for giving me the opportunity of welcoming them to the committee.
APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 15

We had a little visit over on the floor of the House, and a tour around 

the Capitol, and we welcome them to our Nation's Capital and this 

grea t Committee of Inters tate and Foreign Commerce.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for giving me this opportunity.

The C hairman. We are honored by your presence today, and hope 

you will stay with us as long as your schedule will permit.

Mr. Friedel. Mr. C hairman, I want to ask Mr. Macy whether our 

Congressman was violating the Hatch Act when he was making this 

political speech to the students.

Mr. Macy. No comment.

Mr. F riedel. Seriously speaking, if General McKee is approved 

by the Senate, and we pass H.R. 7777, wouldn't the general lie taking 

a loss of about $1,000 ?

Mr. Macy. Yes.

Mr. Friedel. There is no question in my mind tha t I am going to 

vote for this bill, and tha t he is the most desirable man. But what I am 

worried about is how would the family be affected in case General 

McKee passed away ? Would they take a financial loss ?

Mr. Macy. No. His survivorship benefits would continue under 

this arrangement.

Mr. F riedel. Full scale?

Mr. Macy. Yes.

Mr. F riedel. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Mr. Devine ?

Mr. Devine. Mr. Chairman, I have sent out for some information, 

and would like to reserve the right to ask questions at a later time.

The Chairman. Mr. Moss?

Mr. Moss. Mr. Chairman, I want to preface my remarks with the 

statement tha t I have followed the policy, since coming here now’ approximately 15 years ago, of resolving under certain conditions my 

doubts in support of the reasonable requests of the President of the 

United States, whoever he might lie, but I do want to voice very strong 

concern over this request, and I haven’t the slightest concern over the 

matters of the finances here involved.

The United States is going to pay $30,000 to an Administrator, 

whether he is a civilian or military. It has its responsibility to pick 

up the commitments it has made for the retired military officers of 

this country. That, in my judgment, is as it should be.

But I am alert to the fact t ha t as the scope and complexity of military operations continues to grow’, their role in much that affects the 

civilian activities of our economy, of our educational and cultural institutions, that they do present a reservoir of uniquely experienced 

individuals.

So my concern does not go to the questions of qualifications. But 

in 1958, when w’e were faced with a somewhat similar problem, and 

had a very articulate and able spokesman representing the administration urging the creation of the Federal Aviation Agency, I w’as one 

of those who insisted on the provision tha t w’e w’ould now set aside.

It was because of concern of the orientation of any future Administra tor whether he would be a civilian in the true sense of the word, or 

of an orientation and background that would deny him certain basic 

facets of experience which I felt desirable in a civilian agency Administrator.
16 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

So I want to express my strongest concern over any expansion of 

this policy, any repeat of a similar request, I would have grave difficulties in resolving it in any futur e instance.

That is all I have to say.

The Chairman. Mr. Nelsen.

Mr. Nelsen. Mr. Macy, your major responsibility is the Chairman 

of the Civil Service Commission, is it not ?

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Nelsen. Recently I have been reading in the pap er about the 

additional responsibilities that have been given to you by the Pres ident, to review the qualifications of potential appointees. Is that not 

about i t ?

Mr. Macy. Yes ; that accurately states it.

Mr. Nelsen. I)o other member’s of the Civil Service Commission assist you in this, or is this your major responsibility to the President?

Mr. Macy. No, this is an additional responsibility to me as C hairman.

Mr. Nelsen. I would like to comment relative to the appointment 

here tha t while I think it is very important tha t the intent of the 

Congress in the original act be carefully reviewed relative to a civilian 

appointee, I might add, however, that it is my feeling tha t if in the 

military you have a man with tremendous qualifications, certainly if 

he is available, and it is often difficult to get appointees to Federal 

posts, tha t maybe we should review the act itself to take into account 

the reservoir of persons tha t may be in military tha t could be made a 

useful appointee to the Federal Government.

I might add, Mr. Macy, that serving as you do on the Civil Service 

Commission, I know this is out of order when I mention it here, but 

I want to say that I am disappointed in the lack of expeditious attention to some of the problems in the Civil Service Commission th at I 

feel should be acted on soon.

I hope you will give me a chance to visit with you on this before you 

leave, I don’t want to embrrass anyone.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Macy. I am aware, Air. Nelsen, of my responsibility, and let me 

assure you that lack of expedition on affairs you are interested in has 

nothing to do with this added duty.

The Chairman. Mr. Rogers of Florida.

Mr. R ogers of Florida. Tha nk you very much. Air. Chairman.

I, too, share concern with my colleagues, particularly Air. AIoss, in 

varying from the intent of Congress when we have a specific provision 

in the law, very clearly stated, tha t this position be held by a civilian.

It seems to me unfortunate th at the general is not in a position to resign as General Quesada did.

I, too, have great concern over consideration of this legislation in 

varying from the intent of Congress in allowing the military man to be 

charged with the responsibilities of an agency which so vitally affects 

the civilian sector of our country.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Air. Keith ?

Air. Keith. Thank you, Air. Chairman.

I would like to elaborate somewhat on the sentiments expressed 

by Air. AIoss and Air. Rogers.
APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 17

It seems to me there is a very good reason for the intent of Congress 

as expressed in the act.

Let us say, for example, tha t the Secretary of Defense is cool toward 

supersonic transport, and let us assume further that he relies heavily 

on his staff for advice and counsel with reference to this subject. But 

if we do assume th at he does rely on the staff, then we appo int to a 

position a man such as this, a man with friends on the staff, then we 

do have this complex that has been of concern to General Eisenhower.

It does seem if General McKee is enthusiastic about the supersonic 

transport, he would prevail on the Department of Defense and the 

objections of Secretary McNamara might be overcome, and we could 

get an objective through the ma rriag e of military and civilian.

Mr. Macy. Mr. Keith, this question is one in which the re is a great 

deal of interdepartment interest. The economic implications are of 

interest to the Commerce Department, the financial aspects are of 

interest to the Treasury Departm ent and Bureau of the Budget, and 

obviously the military aspects are of interest to the Department of 

Defense.

So the decisions relating to it are, in the final analysis, the decisions 

of the President, and the Preside nt must call upon a number of his 

assistants in reaching that decision.

But the key person in carrying forward the work will be the 

Administrator of the FAA. It is the President’s view tha t the importan t thing here is to have the experience and the knowledge that there 

are adequate safeguards in the executive branch to assure th at the kind 

of relationships t ha t you described will not be of a negative nature, 

but will be of an affirmative nature.

Mr. Keith. I recognize that, but we in the Congress have on several 

instances indicated our concern for supersonic tra nsp ort developed by 

the military, with a dual mission, and it has been frustra ted by the 

executive branch, and the Preside nt acts upon the recommendations 

of his executive branch.

And it does seem to me that the possibility exists, as has been recognized by the Congress in this legislation, and by President Eisenhower 

in his warning to us, as well as those of other Presidents.

I think that is pa rt of the reason for the concern of Mr. Rogers 

and Mr. Moss and Mr. Springer, and I share that concern.

Mr. Macy. I understand.

The Chairman. Mr. Kornegay.

Mr. Kornegay. Mr. Macy, I am not personally acquainted with 

General McKee. I assume he is a fou r star general ?

Mr. Macy. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kornegay. A graduate of the U.S. Military Academy in 1929, 

I believe you said.

Mr. Macy. That is correct.

Mr. Kornegay. How long was it before he went into the A ir Force 

or Air Corps ?

Mr. Macy. His first assignment was with the Coast Artillery in 

the War Department. He joined the Air Force in 1942.

Mr. Kornegay. Ten years, then, after he was graduated from the 

Academy.

Mr. Macy. Actually, he served in the Army for a period of 13 

years before joining the Air Force.
18 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. Kornegay. I s lie a pilot ?

Mr. Macy. No, sir; lie is not.

Mr. Kornegay. How old is lie at the present time ?

Mr. Macy. Fifty-eight.

Mr. Kornegay. Thank you.

The Chairman. Mr. Curtin ?

Mr. Curtin. No questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Devine ?

Mr. Devine. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for returning to 

me.

In the letter to the committee over in the other body, the President 

says, “General McKee has indicated his intention and willingness to 

abide by the provisions of that act,” which I would presume would 

mean that General McKee is perfectly willing to accept the appointment as FA A Administrator whether or not we enact this H.K. 7777. 

Is that correct ? Is that your understanding?

Mr. Macy. I believe the intent in the letter was t ha t he would be 

willing to abide by the reduction in his retirement income that would 

result from appointment, if this legislation was passed.

Mr. Devine. Is it your understanding, then, Mr. Macy, that, in the 

event we do not favorably enact this legislation, t ha t General McKee 

would not be interested in the appointment ?

Mr. Macy. I have no indication one way or the other on that.

Mr. Devine. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

The Chairman. It would be exceedingly doubtful if he would, 

wouldn't it, as a matter of practical fact?

Mr. M acy. Mr. Chairman, I have no hard and fast statement from 

him, but it seems to me tha t the President’s letter, and from the testimony and request for this bill, that the belief is tha t this would be 

a substantial loss, and difficult for him if he were asked to do it.

If the bill were not passed, we would obviously have to discuss this 

very thoroughly with him.

The Chairman. Mr. Van Deerlin ?

Mr. Van Deerlin. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Mr. Carter ?

Mr. Carter. No questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Pickle?

Mr. Pickle. Mr. Macy, I assume you share the President’s feeling 

that General McKee is perhaps the best qualified man in America today 

to handle this job.

Mr. Macy. He is certainly the best qualified man th at we are aware 

of at the present time.

Mr. Pickle. And it is your opinion that he is needed by our country in this particular position at this time?

Mr. Macy. That is clearly my view.

Mr. P ickle. In this instance, Mr. Chairman, I have no grave doubts 

about the course we should take.

As a matter of interest, is General McKee here this morning?

Mr. Macy. I don’t believe so. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Pickle. Thank you.

The Chairman. Mr. Callaway ?

Mr. Callaway. Mr. Macy, I am a graduate of the same school as 

General McKee, West Point, so naturally I am not antimilitary. I
APPOINTM EN T OF FAA ADM INISTRA TOR 19

am well aw are of the co ntrib utions of the military, and I appre cia te 

them .

I do, however , jo in Mr. Spr in ge r, Mr. Moss, an d othe r mem bers of 

the c ommittee in po intin g out wh at seems t o be a viola tio n of tlie act, 

because whether Gen era l McKee would resign or not seems not to be the 

problem. He is ba sically a m ilitar y man, and his basic backgro und is 

military.

He is being selected because of his excellence as a m ili ta ry man. 

An d if y ou g o th roug h the da ily affairs of the FA A, where military 

and general a via tio n an d com mercia l airlines have a position , they are 

usually at variance.

Th e Pr esiden t is rel ying on the Dep artm en t of Defense to give the 

mili tary viewp oin t. I t looks lik e he sho uld rely, in a con trover sy, 

on a perso n wi th a civilia n back grou nd to keep th is as a civilia n 

agency.

W ou ld you comm ent on th at ?

Mr. M acy. My fee ling is th at General McK ee, with h is bac kgrou nd 

in the log istica l and ma nageme nt end of the A ir Force , has had an 

op po rtun ity to be fa m ili ar with ma ny of the functio ns in the Air 

Force th at a re com par abl e to those w ith in the F AA, a nd th at he brings 

a very broa d po int of view to th is Agency, an d to t he s olu tion of the 

pro ble ms that it faces at this time.

Ce rta inly he has as an officer of the Air Force ha d a ca reer of experiences which are pa rtic ul ar ly va lua ble in this assignm ent .

Mr. Callaway. I agree wi th th at . I am a p ilo t, myself. I see a lot 

of these issues th at come up in the FAA.

Ju st fo r example, general ly th e military tak es the position all air 

space should be control led. Mu ch of gen eral aviat ion an d com mercial av iat ion takes the po sit ion th at all av iat ion sh ou ld not be 

con trolled.

It. is just the kin d of th in g th at is bre d in an Air Force man for 

ye ars and ye ars and yea rs, just as it is bre d in me, as a pr iv at e pilot, 

th e othe r wav. I could no more change ove rnight tha n he could.

Mr. Macy. Let me add also the experie nce of the past ye ar th at 

Ge neral M cKe e has h ad wi th NASA has indic ate d to tho se who have 

wor ked w ith him the b read th o f view and the o bje ctivity of ju dgment, 

th at he is abl e to b rin g to some of the se complex questions.

Mr. Callaway. I certa inly ha ve heard no thing again st Gen eral 

McKee. I un de rst an d he is an out stan ding man.

Th an k y ou, Mr. Ch airma n.

M r. Springer. Would yo u yield ?

Mr. Callaway. Yes.

Mr. Si ’ringer. On the p oin t wh ich the ge ntlem an from Georg ia has 

raised , wo uld y ou recall fro m w ha t agen cy the FA A took most of its 

personnel when it was set up ?

Mr. M acy. It is my reco llec tion , M r. Sp rin ge r, th at most of i t came 

fro m CAA.

Mr. Springer. An d th at ha d been a civ ilian -adm ini ste red agency. 

I do n’t believe there h ad ever been a m ili tary man in the age ncy .

Mr. Macy. I am not f am ilia r w ith t he histor y.

Mr. Springer. 1 believe I am co rre ct in that.

And it. was the feeling sinc e yo u were going to deal with civ ilia ns 

for the most pa rt, there was a gr ea t fear of ha ving a m ilitar y man ,
20 APPOINTMEN T OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

because so much of what was arising from the created FAA was in 

essence conflict between the civilian and military, especially over fights 

of various kinds, and because of the kind of information that was 

given.

And it was because this was formed tha t you would have a civilian 

administrator, and probably a military man as a deputy, for the 

purpose of working out the conflict which they have had between the 

military and the civilian.

I can remember this debate, and why this was put forward that 

this would cure the situation, by bringing these two together, and 

then there was the fea r you might have some general appointed 

to this.

I will admit what the chairman has said. I will say this, that at 

least Quesada came before us and said he probably would by the Administrator. But at least he wasn’t appointed d uring the time he held 

that. He was a civilian.

I am not going to say tha t he forgot all about his military background during the time he was a civilian, but I thin k they are primarily making decisions th at affect an entirely civilian capacity, and that 

is domestic and internation al air traffic.

This is why I have such strong views.

Thank you, Mr. Callaway.

Mr. Macy. As I recall it, Mr. Springer, at the time the Agency was 

set up, certain military functions were also brought into FAA, and 

it was necessary to work those out durin g the early days.

It would be my observation that as a result of the skillful management of both Quesada and Halaby that most of those have been worked 

out, and there has been a balance of civilian and military interest 

obtained in the FAA . This situation generally exists at the present 

time.

And further, as I pointed out in my statement, it was clear that those 

of you who drafted th e legislation did anticipate tha t there might be 

a military head of the Agency, because you prescribed in that event 

the deputy should not be a military man or even someone who w7as a 

former military man. That is the way the specification for the deputy is written.

Mr. Callaway. I would like to yield to the gentleman from California.

Mr. Younger. Tha nk you very much.

Following up the question I asked you as to when he learned of this, 

the current issue of Life has a story in it, and here is a quotation t hat 

they have from the President, talking to Gonzalez, the Congressman 

from San Antonio.

As I understand, the general comes from Texas. Is tha t correct? 

Originally?

Mr. M acy. No ; he is from Virginia.

Mr. Younger. Originally?

Mr. Macy. He was born in Virginia.

Mr. Younger. Here is the President’s quotation, and I think it 

ought to go in the record. He is talking to Congressman Gonzalez.

“I had to chase Halaby all over town to get his resignatio n,” Johnson said to 

him. “But I got it jus t like I said I would.”

Tha t is in this issue of Life.
AP POINTM EN T OF FAA ADM INISTRA TOR 21

Mr. Macy. This does not coincide with any understanding I have 

ol‘ the situation. Mr. Ilala by had indicated his desire to resign over 

quite an extended period of time, and there had been a review of a 

number of candidates, as I have indicated earlier. And the decision 

was made that of those candidates, General McKee was the one that 

most appropriately met the requirements of the job.

Mr. Younger. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

T'he Chairman. 1 think probably it should not be overlooked that 

there has been a controversy that has been going on between our colleagues, as mentioned by Mr. Younger, which it seems to me ought not 

to be brought into this hearing.

1 hope tha t the committee will not get involved in some matter of a 

difference of principle between a colleague and Mr. Ilalaby .

I think Mr. Ilalaby has tried to do the best job that he possibly 

could in his administration of this act. 1 think in tha t regard actually there has been too much said in the record about it. One day 

I want to say it on the floor, and set the record stra igh t on it.

In view of the fact that Mr. Springer mentioned it further, and the 

comment of Mr. Callaway made a few minutes ago, I think we should 

not overlook the record. It is easy to forget what motivates a par ­

ticular viewpoint.

And as some of our colleagues will recall, what brought this issue 

up at the time was th at there were two separate systems being set up 

in this country, one m ilitary and one civilian. The purpose of the 

1958 act was to combine those systems into one, and bring them all 

within the Federal Aviation Agency.

Now, at tha t time, the Federal Aviation Agency, the old CAA, if 

I recall, had about 15,000 personnel. I am not sure.

Mr. Macy. It was about that. Tha t is about right.

The Chairman. And it was anticipated with those functions being 

brought together tha t something like 14,000 military personnel involved in the same kind of administration would be transferred to the 

Federal Aviation Agency, and because there were so many military 

personnel that were being transferred to the civilian agency, there was 

a great concern at that time about the head of the Agency being a member of the military, and that together with all of this personnel being 

transferred, the military would have the upper hand of it.

Tha t was a fact. Tha t was the reason for the issue a t tha t time. 

But as has been stated heretofore, General Quesada was a military 

man. lie told us, Congress knew it, he was going to be the first Administrator, even though he had said tha t he would resign from the 

military.

But nevertheless, as has been said, we had tha t situation, which we 

knew about. We accepted it, and the first Administrator of this 

Agency was a military man in fact.

Mr. Gilligan?

Mr. Gilligan. No questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Famsle y?

Mr. F arnsley. No questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Williams?

Mr. Williams. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Macy, I share the concern expressed by the gentleman from 

Georgia. I am not a West P oint graduate, but I am an ex-Air Force 

officer, a rated pilot, and I have a very deep interest in this matter.
22 AP PO INTM EN T OF FAA ADMIN ISTRAT OR

I share certain apprehensions expressed by Mr. Callaway in regard 

to the military orientation toward positive control of all aircraft, and 

I certainly do not feel tha t is in the interest of developing a sound 

civil aviation transportation system in our country.

1 am dedicated to the concept that this is a Government of laws, and 

not a Government of men. A law was passed in 1958, which I would 

quote, known as the Federal Aviation Act. I quote from the statute, 

with which you are familiar, in regard to the qualifications of the 

Administrator, subsection (b) of section 301. It has a stipulation, 

which I quote:

A t th e tim e of his nom in at io n he sh al l he a civi lian , an d sh all ha ve ha d 

ex jie rien ee in a field d ir ec tly re la te d to a vi at io n.

In the committee report, which accompanied that act. and again 

repeated in the statement of the managers on the part of the House, 

who were at that time our present chairman, Congressman Harris, 

Mr. Roberts, Mr. Walter Rogers, who is presently on the committee, 

Mr. John Flynt, who is no longer a member of th is committee but is 

still a Member of Congress, Mr. Wolverton, Mr. O'Hara, and Mr. 

Schenck, who were managers on the part of the House, they said this:

The re qu irem en t in se ct io n 30 1( h) th a t th e A dm in is tr ato r he a c iv ilia n at th e 

tim e of his no min atio n m ea ns th a t he sh al l he a ci vi lian iu th e st ri cte st sens e 

of th e wo rd.

Now, I subscribe, of course, to what Mr. Rogers said a few minutes 

ago, that the President should lx? free to make appointments of the 

best qualified persons available to him, but I would add that the President. should be free to make such appointments only within the limitations imposed on such appointments by the law.

Do you agree with that statement ?

Mi .M acy. Yes.

Mr. Williams. Mr. Macy, you have come here with the suggestion 

that the Congress waive the civilian requirement for the second time 

in three appointments. In other words, that the Congress not stand 

by the law as the Congress passed it for the second out of the third time 

that an Administrator is to l>e appointed.

Do you feel that that is a good policy for the Congress, to make exceptions repeatedly to statutory requirements on which it has previously passed ?

Mr. Macy. My view, Air. Williams, would be that the circumstances 

in this particular instance, warrant making the exception in order-----

Mr. Williams. Can that be applicable to any instance wherein the 

President, has a man he feels is uniquely qualified for any position ? 

Couldn't that same argument be applied to any kind of limitations 

imposed by the law in certain circumstances?

Mr. Macy. This is one of very few appointing authorities that are 

limited in this fashion, and in this case, the view was that the circumstances and the individual warranted providing an exception in order 

to make this particular appointment.

Mr. Dingell. Would you yield ?

Mr. Wilijams. Yes.

Mr. Dingell. Mr. Macy, have you studied the history of this act ?

Mr. Macy. Not to the extent that Mr. Williams may have, but I 

have certainly reviewed the background.
AP POINTM EN T OF FAA ADM INIS TRA TOR 23

Mr. Dingell. Are you aware of the history of t his act ?

Mr. Macy. Yes.

Mr. Dingell. Are you in agreement with the history of this act, and 

the reasons of this committee and Congress in setting up the FAA?

Mr. Macy. Yes. As I indicated in mv statement, I believe it is desirable to have civilian leadership over the long term in this Agency, 

and to have a civilian stamp on it.

Mr. Dingell. Do you recognize the wisdom cf having the civilian 

leadership in this Agency?

Mr. Macy. I do. That is why I support the concept. But 1 believe 

in this particular situation-----

Mr. Dingell. You seek here this morning a specific exemption 

based solely on the convenience of the administration.

Mr. Macy. Based upon the needs of this particula r Agency at this 

time, and the qualifications of this particular man.

Mr. Dingell. Based upon convenience as the administrator within 

the Federal agency who is charged with conducting a talent search.

This is what you are seeking, a special convenience for yourself, and 

a special exemption for the administration from a law of Congress 

which you admit is a wise act.

Isn't that what you are seeking?

Mr. Macy. No, I certainly don't put it in personal terms, at all. This 

is an appointment that the President has indicated it is his intention 

to make. But obviously, before he can make any nomination, it is 

necessary to have this waiver.

Mr. Dingell. I am transgressing greatly on the time of my friend, 

the Congressman from Mississippi.

Mr. Williams. Iso ur time limited, Mr. Chairman?

The Chairman. No. We have not invoked any time limit.

Mr. Williams. I should not want to abuse my privilege.

The C hairman. You are not, at all.

Mr. Williams. Mr. Macy, 1 believe you stated in response to a question asked a few minutes ago that Congress anticipated that there 

might be a time in the unforeseeable future when it might become 

necessary for a military man to be appointed to the head of this 

Agency. Didn't you say that? Am I correct in that?

Mr. Macy. Yes. I indicated in my statement-----

Mr. Williams. What do you base that statement on ?

Mr. Macy. I base this on the language in the statute pertaining to 

the Deputy Administrator.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir, but it doesn’t pertain to the Administrator.

Mr. Macy. No, sir.

Mr. Williams. With reference to the Administrator, the language 

is very specific, isn't it? It is a positive stipulation?

Mr. Macy. But what I was referring to was the language in the 

section pertaining to the Deputy Administrator, where it states that 

if the Administrator isa former Regular officer of any one of the armed 

services, the Deputy Administrator shall not be an officer on active 

duty with one of the armed services or a retired Regular officer or a 

former Regular officer of one of the armed services.

I was citing that, and then went on in my statement earlier this 

morning to indicate that it was the President's intention to name a 

civilian to the deputy position.
24 AP PO INTM EN T OF FAA ADM INISTRA TOR

Mr. Williams. You are familiar with the history of the Quesada 

appointment, aren’t you ?

Mr. Macy. Yes, I am.

Mr. Williams. You recall tha t an effort was made in the Congress, 

and I don't remember whether it was in the form of an amendment to 

the Federal Aviation Act or whether it was in the form of legislation 

similar to this before the committee, but nonetheless, an effort was 

made to permit General Quesada to receive that appointment, notwithstanding the civilian stipulation in the law, and to retain his military status.

You recall that on a vote of the House of Representatives that was 

defeated. You recall tha t subsequent to that defeat in the House of 

Representatives, and the expression of disapproval on the part of the 

Congress, General Quesada, in order to qualify himself for appointment as head of the Federal Aviation Agency, resigned all of his military connections, including giving up his retirement pay, didn’t he?

Mr. Macy. I do not recall.

Mr. Williams. Therefore, what we are seeking to do here for General McKee is something tha t the Congress refused to do for General 

Quesada, isn't it ?

Mr. Macy. I do not recall.

Mr. Williams. I am advised, and 1 don't recall the legislation,-that 

after Quesada went out, Congress restored those privileges?

Mr. Macy. Yes; there was a private bill that restored all of those 

privileges to him.

Mr. Williams. Now, I would like to be frank and honest about 

these things, and 1 am sure you do. In two out of three cases the 

Congress has been asked to waive the stipulation which it wrote into 

the Federal Aviation Act.

Don't you think that a much more honest approach would be for 

the Congress simply to amend the Federal Aviation Act and take that 

stipulation out?

Mr. Macy. It would seem to me, in view of the experience, there 

should be a review of the requirement bv the Congress to see whether 

it could be generalized.

Mr. Williams. Would you like it removed from the act so the President would be given a free hand in making these appointments?

Mr. Macy. I think we have reached a point where it should be 

considered.

Mr. W illiams. While I may say 1 don't support that. I will offer 

that as an alternative to the committee, so as to meet the issue head on.

I have worked rather closely with the Federal Aviation Agency for 

the past 8 or 10 years. I have found both General Quesada and Mr. 

Halaby to be extremely able men. I consider both of those gentlemen 

to be tine Administrators, and I think both served the best interests 

of their country, and did it well.

I don't know General McKee. I don't know anything about him 

except what I have read in the newspapers. All the reports that I 

have received about. General McKee are fine. They are good and 

complimentary.

Like Mr. Moss, I have nothing personal in taking the position tha t 

I do with respect to this nomination, but I do feel that the Congress 

should be sufficiently honest and above board either to amend the law,
APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 25

the basic law, so as to remove this stipulation, or to refuse to make an 

exception to the law for the second time in 8 years.

You stated that General McKee had unique qualifications for this 

office.

Mr. Macy. Yes.

Mr. Williams. You stated tha t General McKee was not a pilot. Is 

General McKee a rated airman of any kind ?

Mr. Macy. No, sir.

Mr. Williams. General McKee is not a rated navigator, not a rated 

bombardier, he is not a rated observer?

Mr. Macy. No; he is a nonrated officer.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. But I understand he is a specialist in the 

field of supersonics.

Mr. Macy. He is a specialist in Air Force management and logistics.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. Macy. He is experienced in Air Force research and development, which means th at he has had extensive experience in aircraft 

engine and frame development, which is related to the supersonic 

mission.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. Has he ever had any experience in connection with light, slow aircra ft ?

Mr. Macy. I can’t answer that. I do not know.

Mr. Williams. There are some 100,000 general aviation aircraft, 

I believe, in the skies today, as opposed to some 2,000 or 3,000 commercial scheduled carriers. There is not a civilian supersonic in the 

air, as I understand it, except prototypes.

The present Adm inistrator has a very capable consultant in Mr. 

Gordon Bain, as you know, who is Deputy A dministrator fo r Supersonics. Is it really necessary to have someone who is oriented toward 

supersonics as head of the Agency, in view of the fact that Mr. Bain, 

an expert in th at field, is available to advise in the same manner that 

Mr. Dave Thomas, an expert in his field, would be there to advise in 

respect to technical problems in other areas ?

Mr. Macy. I wouldn’t describe General McKee as a specialist in 

supersonic transports. He has the background, so he will be able to 

contribute in the overall direction of the supersonic program.

Just what use he will make of Mr. Bain ’s qualifications, I don’t 

know, but Mr. Bain certainly has developed a background in the course 

of the time that he has been on this work which will be useful.

Mr. W illiams. I am a bit concerned over the attention tha t would 

be given to everyday conventional-type aircraft. In other words, I 

am afraid tha t the appointment of an A dministrator for the express 

purpose of developing a supersonic airc raft might result in a neglect 

of the grea t mass of general and scheduled air carriers tha t we have 

in the country today.

Mr. Macy. General McKee in his responsibility as Administrator 

would cover this whole area. His experience with aviation generally 

would well equip him to deal with this whole broad and important 

spectrum of responsibility th at is the FAA’s.

Mr. Williams. I hope you are right.

You mentioned tha t he has unique qualifications in traffic control 

and inspection and training of pilots and crew members. If he is not 

a rated airman, what type of experience did he have in connection with 

the training of pilots and crew members, other than administrative?
26 APPOINTMENT OP' FAA ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. M acy. He was Vice Chief of Staff, and had with General 

LeMay the overall responsibility for all of these functions relating to 

the Air Force.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Mr. M acy. He was one of the top Air Force managers concerned 

with the total mission of the Air Force. And as commander of the 

Air Force Logistics Command, he was concerned with the direction of 

all of the activities pertaining to the procurement and maintenance 

and supply of aircraft in the Air Force.

The view I was expressing was that this background particularly 

well equipped him for the direction of the FAA with its multiple 

mission.

Mr. Williams. I don't have any further questions. I do feel, as 1 

say, that this committee should meet this question head on, and adopt 

one or two alternatives: either change the law, or abide by the law.

And if my position in this doesn’t prevail, and T am quite sure it 

will not, I would welcome General McKee to the new post and certainly will offer whatever cooperation I might be able to accord him.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Mr. .Jarman, do you have any questions?

Mr. J arman. Not at this moment.

The Chairman. Mr. Dingell ?

Mr. Dingell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Macy, tell me about the civilian background of General McKee.

Air. Macy. General McKee has been a member of the military service since he entered West Poin t in 1925, so his civilian background 

predates that time.

Mr. Dingell. So his entire career, his entire experience, is military. 

1 s that correct ?

Mr. Macy. Except for the past year, when he has served as an 

Assistant Administrator of NASA in a retired military status.

Mr. Dingell. Do you agree with me, as you already have, that the 

purpose of the Congress was a laudable one in putting limitations in 

ihe Federal Aviation Act of 1958, which you are seeking to effectively 

abrogate today ? Is this correct ?

Mr. Macy. I am seeking an exception that will permit General McKee to serve in this capacity without resigning from his retired status 

as an Air Force officer.

Mr. Dingell. But you agree that the purpose of Congress was 

laudable ?

Mr. Macy. Yes; I support the desirability of civilian leadership 

in the long run.

Mr. Dingell. Here we have an officer whose entire experience has 

been with the military. It would be fair to infer that he has consistently supported the position of the military, as we would expect 

from a military man, in all controversies involving aviation policy of 

t he armed services. Isn't that so?

Mr. Macy. As far as I know, he has. He certainly was subject to 

command.

Mr. Dingell. His whole experience was military. His whole attitude in terms of aviation is military, and his whole attitude and 

philosophy are formed bv service in the military. Is that correct?

Mr. Macy. I don't know what other forces or reading may 

have-----
APPOINTM EN T OF FAA ADM INIS TRA TOR 27

Mr. Dingell. It would be f air to infer, though, that these were by 

far the most dominant experiences that this gentleman has had in his 

experience. Is that correct ?

Mr. Macy. Except that he was engaged a good portion of his 

career in the phase of military operations that was very closely 

parallel to that of the civilian.

Mr. Dingell. That is right.

Now, over the years, there has been an abundance of controversy 

between military and the civilian aviation within this country, has 

there not ?

Mr. Macy. So I understand.

Mr. Dingell. And these controversies have been bitter, deep, and 

have involved very fundamental questions, have they not?

Mr. Macy. Yes.

Mr. Dingell. So again it becomes clear that the purposes of the 

Congress in enacting precisely the limitation we have before us in 

the FAA Act of 1958 were again wise, to assure that the purposes 

and functions of civilian aviation insofar as civilian aviation is concerned were maintained and preserved now. Isn't this a fact ?

Mr. Macy. Yes.

Mr. Dingell. As a matter of fact, if you read the Federal Aviation Act of 1958, you will notice that there was a tran sfer of Department of Defense functions involved, and you will notice, in addition 

to this, the question which is param ount—of use of airspace—was resolved in this legislation, was it not?

Mr. Macy. That is correct.

Mr. Dingell. This was again vested in civilian authority. Is this 

correct ?

Mr. Macy. It was vested in the FAA as a civilian agency. It 

brought together both the military and civilian in one agency.

Mr. Dingell. And again we recognize the wisdom of the Congress 

in trying to maintain civilian control over the authority through 

precisely the limitation we are discussing today ?

Mr. M acy. And the Congress proceeded to approve the appointment of a military man as the first Administrator.

Mr. Dingell. There is nothing in the law today which precludes 

General McKee from entering the Government service as Administrator of the FAA, provided he agrees to comply with the provisions 

of the act.

Mr. Macy. It would be necessary for him to resign his military 

status, and to forgo the benefits that, have accrued to him over a 35- 

year career of the A ir Force.

Mr. Dingell. This has already been required by one other military 

man, has it not ?

Mr. Macy. And then restored to him by a subsequent act.

Mr. Dingell. We are not discussing that. We are discussing 

the fact that Congress by a wise policy required that one military 

man with a distinguished background and reputation forgo this 

fringe benefit, important to him.

Mr. Macy. But the Congress also accepted a man with exclusively 

a military background, and in that instance merely required that he 

resign in order to meet the stand ard of the act.

Mr. Dingell. The Congress required him to accept this responsibility subject to the law.
28 AP PO INTM EN T OF FAA ADM INISTRA TOR

Mr. Macy. But your earlier point was to the background of (he 

man. The man s( ill had an exclusively military background.

Mr. Dingell. I recognize that, hut we required that the law be 

adhered to. Now here today you are here before us with a request 

(hat the Congress essentially establish a precedent, because we can 

anticipate no military man will ever enter in the responsibility without the specific exception (hat you have before us today. Isn’t (his 

a fact ?

Mr. Macy. Yes, it seems highly unlikely that any military man 

would accept the sacrifice of resigning all of his benefits in order to 

take the post, particularly when many of them can go outside of 

Government and continue to have all of those benefits, and receive a 

much higher salary than the Government is able to extend to them.

Mr. Dingell. I want to continue on tha t point. Wouldn’t it be 

fai r to say tha t there are many people in this Nation who have 

civilian backgrounds who have the qualifications and experience and 

abilities that are required for the position of Administrator of the 

FAA?

Mr. Macy. There probably are, but I certainly would feel that the 

qualifications that General McKee brings would be equal or superior 

to any individual that I know of who is available for an assignment 

of this type.

Mr. Dingell. But it is fair to infer that there are probably many 

who have the qualifications?

Mr. Macy. I certainly wouldn’t say that he is the only one who 

has the qualifications. We are in the position of saying tha t General McKee has the qualifications which are technically appropriate 

for this job at this time, and therefore we ask for this waiver.

Mr. Dingell. This waiver is then for the convenience of the 

administration.

Mr. Macy. No, it is in order to acquire the services of a highly 

qualified man.

Mr. Dingell. But it really is for the convenience of the administration, so thev don’t have to seek further. Isn ’t that correct ?

Mr. M acy. No, I disagree.

Mr. Dingell. Well, they are just going to have to seek furth er, 

if thev don’t get this man. Isn’t th at correct?

Mr. M acy. If this man is not nominated, certainly we will seek f ur ­

ther, hut this isn't a matte r of convenience. This is advanced because 

of the belief th at this man is eminently well qualified for this particular post, and should be permitted to serve in it without giving up the 

benefits that he has earned serving his Government in a different 

capacity for 35 years.

Mr. Nf.i .sen. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. Dingell. I will lx1

 happy to yield.

Mr. Nelsen. One point has been brought out. As a personnel man, 

I would like to comment on this.

The NASA program is a most important one, is it not?

Mr. Macy. Yes; it is very important.

Mr. Nelsen. Involving the potential success of this Nation in its 

effort to compete with other nations in the space program, and taking 

many, many, many billions of dollars, perhaps $30 or $40 billion before we are through?

Mr. Macy. Yes.
APPOINTM EN T OF FAA ADM INISTRA TOR 29

Mr. Nelsen. You have a man who is I believe at a salary of $30,000 

for his contribution to this effort?

Mr. Macy. His salary is $24,500.

Mr. Nelsen. One of the highest paid employees ?

Mr. Macy. That is correct.

Mr. Nelsen. And in a very key position.

Generally speaking, we are in short supply of men of this type. Research and development has a crying need nationwide. Is tha t not 

true ?

Mr. Macy. That is correct.

Mr. Nelsen. We already have, I believe, fairly good research and 

development insofar as the need is concerned in the FA A’s program.

It seems to me that we have a man in a very responsible position, a 

square peg in a square hole, and a very important one that is going to 

be moved to a position where his talents are not necessarily so much in 

demand, and it is going to be to some extent a handicap to the NASA 

agency. They are not going to comparably contribute to the success of the 

FAA program. His needs are not as great, or the Agency’s needs are 

not as great as they are in the case of NASA, which is of so much more 

significance.

Mr. Macy. I consider them both very important public agencies. I 

feel that, the FAA has a broad public responsibility in the aviation 

field, and should have strong leadership and direction. The NASA 

program is also one of high p rior ity and critical importance.

I believe tha t General McKee’s qualifications are equally a ppr opriate, if not more appropriate, in FAA than they are in NASA.

He has made a fine contribution in a year’s time at NASA, and would 

continue to do so, if he were to remain, but my belief is th at he would 

serve in a more effective fashion as FAA Administrator.

Mr. Nelsen. Thank you.

Mr. Dingell. I have just one more question, and then I will 

terminate.

The recommendations included a statement which I think you should 

be aware of, and tha t is it said tha t even if the Adm inistrator of the 

FA A were to be a retired, resigned, or former military officer, that the 

Deputy, who 1 understand is now an active member of the military-----

Mr. M acy. Mr. Dingell, I am afraid you misunderstood my statement earlier this morning, at which time I cited this language, and 

indicated that it was the President’s intention to select and to announce 

shortly the nomination of a career civilian from the Agency to fill the 

Deputy’s position.

Mr. Dingell. I took note of that. What I am coming to is simply 

that this should express to you, Mr. Macy, and to the administration, 

the very clear concern of Congress that we preserve this Agency from 

an undue degree of military influence, background, and philosophy, 

and I don’t think tha t you or any other Federal official can give the 

Congress the kind of assurances that Congress expected at the time 

tha t it enacted the Federal Aviation Act of 1958.

And I say to you, Mr. Macy, I was a member of this committee at 

tha t time, and I am sure that we did not.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Mr. Jar man ?
30 APPOINTMEN T OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. J arman. Mr. Chairman, I have no questions of Mr. Macy at thepresent time.

I would like to go on record in favor of H.R. 7777, to facilitate the 

appointment of General McKee as Administrator of the FAA.

General McKee has an outstanding background of military experience and administration in aviation. There is reason to believe that he 

can render the Nation a service in the position for which he has been 

nominated.

My own State of Oklahoma has a lot of stake in the FAA, particu ­

larly with the great FAA center located in my own home city of Oklahoma City. Many Oklahomans, Mr. Chairman, had working contact 

with General McKee when he was head of the Air Force Logistics 

Command at Wright-Pat terson in Ohio.

At this point, Mr. Chairm an, I would like to insert in the record an 

editorial from the A pril 30 issue of the Daily Oklahoman in Oklahoma 

City, strongly endorsing General McKee's appointment.

The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.

(Editorial referred to follows:)

[F ro m th e Dai ly Oklah om an , Ok laho ma Ci ty, Ok la., Apr . 30, 106 5]

F or tu na te Ap po in tm en t

Oklah om a is in de ed fo rt u n a te th a t re ti re d Gen. W illiam F. McKee w as ap ­

po in te d A dm in is tr at or of t h e F edera l A vi at io n Agency.

The succ essor to N aj ee b E. Ha lah.v ta kes to his new po st a var ie d ba ck gr ou nd 

of m il it ary an d quasi -m il it ary ex pe rien ce an d adm in is tr ati on in av ia tion , whi ch 

w ill b e of va lue to th e N at io n.

O ur p art ic u la r re la ti onsh ip s w ith th e 58-year-o ld A dm in is tr ato r ha ve e xt en de d 

ov er m an y ye ar s in div er se ca tego rie s. W he n he w as he ad of th e A ir For ce 

Log istics C om mand a t W ri ght- P att ers on A ir F or ce B as e in Ohio, Gen eral McK ee’s 

a re a of resp on sibi lity in cl uded T in ker Fie ld and its A ir M at er ie l Ar ea. He m ad e 

v is it s he re which ga ve him ac quai nta nce sh ip w ith our peop le an d ar ea .

Pre se ntly A ss is ta nt A d m in is tr ato r fo r M an ag em en t Dev elo pm en t of th e N ati o n al A er on au tics an d Sp ac e A dm in is trat io n, he h as b een an ad vi se r to Ja m es E. 

Webb, NASA adm in is tr ato r, fo rm er ly of th is city . Alth ou gh th e fo rm er ViceC hi ef of St af f of th e A ir F orc e m ai nta in ed a close co nn ec tio n w ith th e Pen ta go n, 

he ha d a n in te re st in de ve lo pm en t o f th e su pe rs on ic tr a n sp o rt (S ST) but n o dir ec t 

re sp ons ib ility fo r it.

Si nc e we ha ve th e la rg e FA A Cen te r a t W ill R og er s W or ld A irpo rt, our 

fu tu re re la tionsh ip to G en er al McKee wi ll be ev en clos er. Alth ou gh our ci ty 

is th e pr in ci pa l be ne fic iary of th e FA A Cen ter, th e em pl oy m en t an d pr oc ur em en t 

“f all o u t” is of be ne fit to th e who le are a an d to th e Sta te . The se co nn ec tio ns, 

w it h G en er al Mc Kee’s dem onst ra te d ab ility and ta le nts , m ak e th e ap po in tm en t 

hi gh ly p lea sin g.

Mr. J arman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Any furt her questions by a member ?

Mr. Farnsley. Just a short statement for the record.

I would like the record to show that it is important that Congress 

anticipated such an event and spelled out what should happen in the 

event that it came about.

I further think it is im portant tha t we give the President the benefit 

of the doubt in times of national emergency, and I think we are in a 

time of national emergency.

The Chairman. Mr. Macy, thank you very much for your appearance here today. We are glad to have you representing the great 

civilian personnel organization of this Government here, and also I 

want to compliment you on your very fine presentation, and your 

ready response to all of the questions that have been asked of you.
APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 31

Mr. Macy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, members of 

the committee, for this opportunity.

The Chairman. You may obtain the information that, some member 

asked for a moment ago to be included in the record at the appropriate 

time.

Mr. Macy. I will do tha t. It is with respect to the retirement provisions.

The Chairman. The next witness is Mr. J. B. H art ran ft, J r. Mr. 

Hartra nf t is the president of the Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association, 

with the address of course in nearby Bethesda, Md. Mr. Ha rtranft, we are very glad to have your appearance here today. We will be glad to have your statement on the subject.

STATEMENT OE JOSEPH B. HARTRANFT, JR., PRESID ENT, AIRCRAFT 

OWNERS & PILOTS ASSOCIATION

Mr. Hartranft. Mr. Chairman, my name is Joseph B. Ha rtranft, 

Jr . I am president of the Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association, 

AOPA . A resume of the nature of AOPA is presented for your information in annex A to the printed copies of our statement.

On May 4, 1965, the day following the introduction of II.R. 7777, 

AOPA issued a press release, and on the following day wrote a letter 

to the chairman of this committee statin g our opposition to the appointment of a career military man as Administrator of the Federal Aviation Agency.

Our release stated that our opposition had nothing to do with General McKee personally, but that it was based on the principle tha t 

civilians should head the various agencies of the U.S. Government.

Further, the Federal Aviation Act specifically states that the Administrator shall be a civilian at the time of his appointment.

AO PA vigorously pursued the principle of civilian leadership when 

the Federal Aviation Act was being drafted, and testified before both 

Houses of Congress to this effect upon several occasions.

We have not changed our beliefs or principles in this respect.

Since the issuance of our press release, we have had the opportunity 

to read the letter from President Johnson to Senator W arren G. Magnuson, as it appeared in the Congressional Record on May 4,1965.

Since May 4, we have had the opportunity of meeting General McKee. We also have been informed that the President had compelling 

reasons of national interest, that transcend strictly aviation affairs, 

in announcing his intention of appointing General McKee as Administrator of the Federal Aviation Agency.

It is not within our power to assess those reasons. In these troubled 

times, when the prestige and security of our Nation is threatened in 

many parts of the world, occasions arise when we must accept the 

judgment of our Chief Executive, despite our strong, contrary beliefs.

We have been convinced th at this is one of those occasions. Therefore, without abandoning our conviction tha t the Federal Aviation 

Agency should be headed by a civilian in the truest sense of the word, 

we have decided tha t in the national interest we should not press our 

opposition to this bill.
32 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

We will continue to mo nitor the acti ons of the Fe de ral Av iatio n 

Age ncy, as we hav e in th e past, and will offer a ful l m easu re o f co op era ­

tion to the new Ad m in istra tor.

In the even t th at we find his ac tion s c on tra ry to t he inten t an d sp ir it 

of the Federa l A viation Act, with rega rd to g enera l aviation , a nd c ontrar y to the in ter est o f ou r 110,000 members, who are our constitu ents, 

we then will t ake ap pr op riat e action s upo n the specific issues.

In the final analy sis , Gener al McK ee's pe rfo rm ance as Adm in ­

istrat or will be the m otiv atin g factor to generat e su pp ort o r o pposition 

by the avi ation pub lic.

Now, aga in ad dressin g ourse lves to the basic issue of m aintaining 

integr ity of the act, an d of ree sta bli shing an d pre ser vin g, fo r the 

future, the doctrine of civ ilia n an d indu str y-oriented helmsm anship 

fo r the F AA, we wis h to reco mmend an am endm ent to the lan gu age 

ofH. R. 77 77 .

We believe the am endm ent esse ntia l to br in g the int ent of th e bil l 

mo re nearly int o co nformity wi th th e prece dent establis hed in th e 

Geo rge C. Ma rsh all bill cited by the P resid en t in his letter.

Th is am end me nt wo uld be the ad dit ion to H.R . 7777 of the last 

sentence of the th ou gh t c ontained in the M arsh all bill, a nd would read 

as follows :

It is hereby expressed as the sense of the Congress th at after General McKee 

leaves the office of Ad minis trator of the Feder al Aviation Agency, no add itio nal 

appointments of military men to tha t office shall be approved.

Suc h an am endm ent will once and fo r all elimi nate “zero h o u r’ 

sit ua tio ns such as we have now experie nce d in two out of three en ­

dea vors to select an FA A A dm inist rator.

Th e FA A has ha d tw o Ad minist rators, one with a military backgrou nd , and the othe r a civilia n. Now, it is pro posed th at the th ir d 

Adm in istrator be a military-orie nted indiv idual. Thus, un de r an 

act which stip ulate s th at the A dm in istra tor sh all be a civ ilian, th e sc ore 

will be tw o A dm in istrator s fro m the m ili ta ry an d only one civilian.

We m ust con clude th at the prese nt lan guage is eith er inad equate to 

convey accu rately an d con vincin gly th e i nten t of C ong ress with reg ar d 

to s tatu tory q ualifica tions o f can did ates, or t h at there exists now here 

an availabl e and capable c ivilian to fill th is top av iat ion post.

We c ann ot conceive th at th e la tter could be th e case—th at now here 

wi thin the FA A its elf , or fro m outsid e th at Agenc y, does there exist 

a qualified civ ilian.

Th e issue of civ ilia n lea dersh ip, we conclude, mus t be dra wn wi th 

rene wed clarity, and th is wo uld be accomplished by th e am end me nt we 

have proposed.

I t h as the v alu e an d m er it o f preceden ce in a leg islative histo ry of 

the ha nd lin g of a sim ila r problem pe rta in in g to a Cab inet-level ap ­

pointme nt. Th e sim ila rit ies in th e Ma rsh all-M cK ee sit ua tio n are 

gr ea ter th an th e d iss im ila rities , and, th ere fore, in ou r opinion , prov ide 

com pel ling and persu asi ve arg um ent fo r the need fo r and consistency 

of a soun d legis lative ame ndme nt.

W ith such an am endm ent as herew ith pro posed, clearly stat in g 

th at no fu rthe r circumv entions of the act will he ncefo rth be allowed, 

th e executive an d leg islative branch es of ou r Gover nment and the 

av iat ion ind ustry w ill ha ve th e guida nce and the op po rtu nity of seeking and gro om ing a pp ro pr ia te ind ivi duals fro m th e civilian rank s to 

fill fu tu re req uir em ents fo r FA A Ad minist rators.
APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 33

Mr. Chairman, this concludes our prepared statement. We wish to 

express our appreciation to you and the other members of the committee for your courtesy in hea ring our views on this subject.

The Chairman. Mr. Ha rtr an ft, let me thank you for your statement. 

Let me commend you for it. I think it is very reasonable, considerate, and in recognition of the situation as you have so well indicated in your 

statement. I would like to assure you t ha t this committee, so long as I am on here and have anything to do with it will, as time goes on, join you in the oversight, or as you refer to it monitoring, or keeping up with what is going on and if it finds th at there is anything th at needs attention, 

we will join you in giving it the attention it deserves. I thin k it is a very good suggestion t hat you make and the committee would like to join with you in that objective.

Mr. Rogers ?

Mr. Rogers of Texas. Only this. I want to join you, Mr. Chairman, 

on complimenting Mr. Hartra nf t and the organization. I think the organization has a record of splendid cooperation in the private enterprise system of this country and I want to compliment you on that and your splendid spirit of cooperation in the situation with which we are 

faced now.

Mr. Hartranft. Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

The Chairman. Mr. Springer, do you have any questions ?

Mr. Springer. Yes. Mr. H artra nft, I notice on page 2 you use these 

words:

we also have been informed th at the President had compelling reasons of na­ tional inte rest, that tran scend str ictly aviation affairs, in announcing his inten­ tion of appointing General McKee as Admin istrator of the Federal Aviation 

Agency.

Could you put on the record w hat you understand those compelling 

reasons were ?

Mr. Hartranft. Mr. Springer, certainly we have no access to the 

details of what the President may consider to be compelling reasons. Our understanding of the situation, however, is that his considerations 

may have been twofold. One, a concern with respect to the SST program and the other a 

concern related to the national situation a t the moment involving matters of national security. And as I have indicated, it is really not with­ in our power to assess those reasons nor to probe beyond the recommendation which apparently is deeply felt by the President.

Mr. Springfr. Did the President talk with you about it ?

Mr. Hartranft. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Springer. Did a representative of the President talk with you 

about it ?

Mr. Hartranft. Yes; he did.

Mr. Springer. Do you mind stating who that was ?

Air. Hartranft. I received a call, Mr. Springer, from a very old 

friend of mine who has been associated in aviation affairs, whose paths have crossed with me since the 1940’s, Mr. James Webb, of the 

Space Administration, asking an opportunity of discussing with me the Pres iden t’s views with respect to his FAA appointment. I have also, as other members of the committee here have indicated, been 

exposed to the press and have some lay knowledge of the situation
34 APPOINTME NT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

with respect to our commitments abroad; the emphasis which is being 

placed upon some of the military aspects as they relate to general 

aviation.

Mr. Springer. Are you talking now, Mr. H artra nft, with reference 

to the SST?

Mr. Hartranft. Xo, I am not, sir. I indicated tha t my understanding was that there was a twofold consideration. First was the 

SST and the second was in the availability of an individual whose 

confidence the President had with respect to those issues in the national interest over and above the aviation considerations and my 

comments-----

Mr. Springer. What I want in the record, Mr. Hartranft, is you 

have no knowledge of what these compelling reasons tha t you were 

so informed by Al l'. Webb are; is that correct ?

Mr. Hartranft. I have no detailed information with respect to 

the national security aspects which apparently are represented to be 

involved.

Mr. Springer. In other words, you don’t have any knowledge of 

that ?

Mr. Hartranft. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Springer. Let me ask you a question. I didn’t ask the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission because he is a representative 

of the President and tha t I suppose is confidential information with 

him as to who was considered.

Xow you are not such a representative. Could you give us any 

idea of who else was considered besides General McKee?

Mr. H artranft. I have no personal knowledge of anyone who may 

have been considered. The announcement of General McKee’s appointment, I think, came as a sudden surprise to all members of the 

industry. I do not know of anybody who did have knowledge before 

the actual release by the President of his selection.

Mr. Springer. Then you have no knowledge of anyone else who 

was considered; is that correct?

Mr. Hartranft. I have no knowledge beyond the normal rumor 

mills of Washington which did indicate a number of people but I 

have no way of knowing whether they were actually or substantially 

considered by anybody.

Mr. Springer. Who were those, then? You are in the industry.

Mr. Hartranft. The aviation press speculated on a number of individuals. Those that I can recall offhand include Mr. Schulte, who 

presently has the post of Assistant Adm inistrator for General Aviation. The speculation also ran tha t a gentleman from Texas tha t 

the President knew and who had some p art in his transporta tion by 

air in the past might be under consideration.

Air. Springer. What was the name?

I am trying to find out the quality of the people who were considered.

Mr. Hartranft. Mr. Springer, I think what we are pursuing here 

are press rumors and I wouldn’t like to give any credence to this line 

of indicated candidates because I have no way of knowing whether 

the President or any of his people actually considered any one of 

these names.

Mr. Springer. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
AP POINTM EN T OF FAA ADMIN ISTRAT OR 35

The Chairman. Mr. Jarm an?

Mr. J arman. No questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Younger?

Mr. Younger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The references have 

been made all the way through the testimony about the similar bill 

tha t was passed for Greneral Marshall in September of 1950. If my 

memory serves me right that was after the start of the Korean war; 

is that tru e ?

Mr. Hartranft. 1950?

Mr. Younger. I th ink it was J une or July along in there tha t the 

Korean war started. Now I am wondering whether the similarity 

between appointing a general as Secretary of the Defense Department 

afte r a war had started, w ith puttin g a general in charge of the FAA, 

has sim ilar military connotation.

Is it the intention, do you think, that we will be confronted shortly 

with the idea that our general aviation is going to be tied up as they 

were during the Korean war and during the Second World War?

Mr. Hartranft. Mr. Younger, as I indicated in my testimony, I 

don’t thin k I am in a position to evaluate the events that may be going 

on in Vietnam and the Dominican Republic. I can only accept what, 

I unde rstand to be the wish of the President and his evaluations. I 

have certainly neither the talents nor knowledge to allow me to make 

such a judgment.

Mr. Younger. Tha t is all, Mr. Chairman.

The C hairman. Mr. Dingell?

Mr. Dingell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am concerned, Mr. 

Hartranft. Are there civilian personnel with experience to qualify 

for this experience that is around to be found ?

Mr. Hartranft. There is no doubt in my mind, sir, tha t there are 

well-qualified people.

Mr. Dingell. Isn’t it a fact tha t if we make this exception now we 

will be condemned from here on forward to make precisely the same 

exceptions ?

Mr. II ariranft. Tha t is precisely why we have suggested an amendment to the act that will make it perfectly clear tha t this is the end 

of the road on these last-minute zero-hour suggestions.

Mr. Williams. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. Dingell. Yes.

Mr. Williams. How do you make it any clearer than it is written 

in the law? Don’t you know the amendment you have suggested is 

not more th an pap and it is not worth the paper it is written on? I 

mean that seriously.

Mr. H artranft. Mr. Williams, I am afraid I would have to agree 

with you th at I cannot understand why the intent of th e act thus far 

has brought the results th at it has. But the fact is that, we still have 

a ball park score of 2 to 1. I thin k I would have to join in your sentiments t ha t there is something that hasn’t been made very clear with 

respect to the selections, or that there are mitigating circumstances of 

a compelling nature as have been represented.

Mr. Dingell. Isn’t it true, Air. Ha rtranft, tha t if the previous 

language didn't make it clear to this administration that no language 

is going to make it clear to this o r any other administration?
36 AP PO INTM EN T OF FAA ADM INIS TRA TOR

Mr. H artranft. I would n ot w an t to contem pla te wh at actio n Congress would take on one set of t he lang ua ge req uir em ents ve rsu s an oth er 

one. B ut the a mendm ent we h av e suggested I th in k sta tes a p osition, 

a “ne ver ag ain,” which the pr es en t lan guage ap pa re ntly ha s no t conveyed or we would no t all be s itting here to da y discus sing t he subject.

Mr. Dinge ll. You have ove r t he years stren uously opposed the idea 

of m ilitar y con trol of FA A, ha ve y ou not?

Mr. H artranft. We h ave , sir.

Mr. Dinge ll. And AO PA h as done exactly the same thing?

Mr. H artranft. Yes.

Mr. D ingell. Would it be fa ir to say that w hen you have a m ilitary 

man, m ili ta ry people are goin gto influe nce h is judg men t, his attitud es 

an d his actions as FA A Adm inist rators?

Mr. H artranft. We ha ve so testifi ed our be lief in th at man y time s, 

sir.

Mr. Dingell. An d, as a m at te r of fac t, it is no t inco nceivab le th at 

the fig ht you hav e mad e to re ta in c ivilian con trol over ou r air space 

can he very n eatly lost sim ply by p uttin g a man of m ili tary philo sop hy, 

experience, a nd upb rin ging in to th e c ontrol of the FA A and th at by so 

do ing he can essentially convert th e FA A to a polish ed policy s ubord ina te of the m ili tary on m atters o f aviatio n. Is this no t a fa ct ?

Mr. H artranft. I t is n ot o nly a fac t, bu t in Ju ly 1960 we bro ught 

th is same argu men t be fore th e o th er com mittee of th e Senate . Am ong 

other thin gs , we said th at o rig inally we were to ld (u nd er the new F A A 

act) th at m ili ta ry partic ip atio n in th e FA A w ould be confined to those 

are as where t he ir o perat ion s we re su bstan tia lly affected.

Indeed we find ourselves dealing with military personnel in matters of little 

or no concern to military services.

We went on to say t hat the h isto ry of av iation thro ug ho ut this w orld 

is t h at th e grow th and success of civil aviat ion is inve rsely in prop or ­

tio n to th e am ount of m ili ta ry control either direc tly or ind irectly 

th at can be imp osed on civil aviation .

As a m at te r of fact the histo ry o f U.S . c ivil aviation is so free f rom 

m ili ta ry domination or influence th at it h as grow n to th e size th at it 

eclip ses all of the res t of the wor ld ’s civil aviation combined.

In Dec ember of the same y ea r we made the recom mendation a sking 

fo r th e elimi natio n of all m ilitar y person nel in key ad mi nis tra tiv e 

pos itio ns of FA A except tho se needed to look ou t fo r th e imm edia te 

intere sts of the mili tary an d tho se FA A fun ctions th at be ar directly 

upo n m ili ta ry operation s.

Mr. Dinge ll. Now i sn’t it also a fact that y ou are going to provide 

large num bers of m ili tary perso nnel on active duty who will be in this 

Agency who will be mak ing po lic y decisions on the hi gh er or lower 

levels ?

Mr. H artranft. I have no wa y of knowing wh at Ge neral M cKe e’s 

polic ies will be with res pec t to his admi nistr ation. We can o nly look 

to the histo ry o f the sit uatio n wh ere we have ma ny key position s not 

general ly relate d to civil av iatio n matter s occupied by military 

person nel.

An offhan d example, fo r ins tan ce, is the head o f th e m edical de pa rtment o f th e F AA, bein g hea ded by Gener al W hite.

Th is we would not conclud e was an ap pr op riate ty pe of mili tary 

infil tra tio n o f th e F AA .
APPOINT MEN T OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 37

Mr. Dingell. What we have is a changed direction at the top but 

a continuing military orientation on matters involving civil aviation 

throughou t the agency would result in this very real hazard before us 

today tha t civilian control of the FAA and our Nation’s aerospace and 

policies with regard to a ircraf t and so forth will ultimately be lost to 

military domination. Is th at a fact ?

Mr. H artranft. The problem, I believe, sir, is weighing the necessity of the exceptions based upon the recommendations of the national 

interest.

I have agreed with all you have said in a normal situation. This 

has been our position consistently and regularly. We have gone even 

further than this committee has been prone to go in that direction. 

But, again, to balance against tha t we have the other considerations 

(which we do not feel tha t we have the power to assess) but which 

have been convincingly put forth by the President and then comes 

the question as to making your point.

If the matter has been weighed and it is a fait accompli there 

comes a time then when you have to join the team.

Mr. Dingell. Thank you very much.

Mr. Springer. Would you yield, please?

Mr. Dingell. I would be happy to.

Mr. Springer. This is the law that he has to be a civilian. Now 

under this legislation we are waiving th at law. That is in effect what 

we are doing, aren’t we? We are changing the law for the term of 

this m an’s administration o f this Agency. Isn 't tha t what we are in 

effect doing?

Mr. Hartranft. That is my understanding.

Mr. Springer. Now it certainly should be the rule that the consideration should be very overriding to make such a change. Isn ’t 

tha t true?

Mr. II artranft. Yes, sir.

Mr. Springer. To change the law. That is what we are in effect 

doing. We are changing the law during this man’s administration. 

Now thus far I haven’t heard anything which is overriding in niv 

estimation. I am trying to find out what the facts are tha t would 

make this overriding and I didn’t get any from the Chairman of the 

Civil Service Commission except that he was an exceptionally qualified man, I believe, could believe Mr. Macy.

And he may even be by your words. But is that an overriding fact 

that would make it necessary for us to change the law for this man’s 

administration?

Mr. Hartranft. Most respectfully, Mr. Springer, I think the only 

individual who can probably satisfy tha t question is the President 

himself.

Mr. Springer. Do you have any knowledge of any situation or have 

any facts which would make it overriding in the nation al interest that 

we should change the law for this man ?

Mr. Hartranft. I have accepted the recommendation, as I understand it, of the President with respect to this. I am not in a position 

to assess those reasons. You, sir, in your position probably would 

have more success at tha t than I might have. The assertion lias been 

made, however, and at some point one must address himself to whether 

they accept what the understanding of the President's position is as 

to the necessity for such a change.
38 APPOINTME NT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

My conclusions simply are this: The President is, himself, certainly 

as a former Member of the Senate, well acquainted with the processes of the Congress and the nature of the law. And he has with all 

of th is knowledge made a determination in his own mind and for the 

national interest tha t this is the route he feels compelled to take.

I do not feel that I am in a position to challenge the President of 

the United States in making such a decision.

Mr. Springer. I understand. I hope I am not in any way belittling 

what you have said. I wan t to say 1 have the utmost respect for the 

President of the United States. I just feel th at we here have a duty 

to know what the reasons are before we waive the law. I see that you 

don’t have it. I can understand the position tha t you have taken on 

the President’s words th at are overriding questions of national interest or security which make it necessary to make the appointment.

I think we should know' what the overriding reasons are, if we are 

going to change the law.

Thank you, Mr. Dingell.

Mr. Hartranft. I have every confidence, sir, that the committee 

will perform properly with respect to such matters and certainly 

would hope that they do.

The Chairman. Mr. Keith ?

Mr. K eith. No questions, Mr. Chairman, except as a member of the 

AOP A, a nonflying member at any time because of unfortunate 

experiences, I want to compliment the witness and congratulate him 

on the testimony.

Thank you.

The Chairman. Mr. Farnsley ?

Mr. Farnsley. I would like to thank the witness and congratulate 

him on what I think is a statesmanlike statement of position and repeat 

for the record the part in which you say:

In these troubled times, when the prestige an d secu rity of our Nation is th re at­ ened in many par ts of the world, occasions ari se when we must accept the judgment of our Chief Exec utive despite ou r strong, c ont rary beliefs.

I have no strong contrary belief, but I certainly respect you for 

taking that position. And th ank you, sir.

The Chairman. Mr. Callaw’ay?

Mr. Callaway. Mr. Chairman, thank you.

I would like to say as a flying member of AOPA, I think this is a 

very statesmanlike statement. I agree very much with Mr. Sp ringer 

because at the moment I haven’t been yet shown those overriding 

reasons. Perhaps the President will see fit to show us these overriding reasons 

and if he submits these reasons to me I w ill take your position. While 

I have strong opinions to the contrary, certainly I will go along with 

him on this.

You mentioned General White. I think this points out the feeling 

of a person who is military in background. I do remember a controversy with General White a few years ago. Most of us in general 

aviation felt that we had arbitrary treatment. Because of the preconditioning of a military man, it was quite arbitrary.

This is the reason I am so concerned. But I would ju st go back and 

say if the President sees fit to show us, as throu gh Mr. Webb he has
APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 39

appa rently shown you, that he has an overriding reason, certainly I 

would go along with it.

Mr. Hartranft. I would hope that your conclusions would be the 

same and I would hope if it is not I might know about it, sir.

The Chairman. Mr. Williams?

Mr. Williams. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ha rtranft, I too, am a duespaying member of the AO PA and I most certainly have the deepest 

sympathy for the position in which you find yourself today. 1 f statesmanship is vascillation then I also want to pay the highest tribute for 

the finest statesmanship that I have seen displayed before this committee in a long time.

As a matter of fact, I wish we had you on the “ Ole Miss’" football 

team because that is the finest piece of broken field running I have ever 

seen in my life. I wouldn’t say tha t by way of personal criticism 

because indeed I realize the rath er precarious position of the AOPA 

finds itself in with respect to the action here today.

At this point, Mr. C hairman, I am going to ask permission to insert 

in the record a copy of a press release issued on May 4, 1965, by the 

Aircr aft Owners & Pilots Association.

The Chairman. I s there objection?

The Chair hears none.

(Press release referred to follows:)

[Press release from Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association]

AOI’A Statement on Nomination for FAA Administrator

This statement was issued by the Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association.

The Aircr aft Owners & Pilots Association (AOPA) is strongly opposed to the 

appointment of a career militar y man as Admin istrator of the Federal Aviation 

Agency and therefore is also opposed to H.R. 7777, a hill introduced in the U.S. 

House of Representatives on May 3 to authorize the Pre sid ent to appoint Gen. 

William F. McKee to th at office while retaining his milita ry sta tus and privileges. 

The bill, and the nomination, is not only con trary to the unequivocal spirit and 

lang uage of the Federal Aviation Act, but violates the principle of civilian 

lead ership of major Feder al agencies which has been the dom inan t theme of 

American Government. AOPA has a long history of support for the princip le of civilian leadership and 

sees no overwhelming or persuasive reason why the provisions of the Federal 

Aviation Act should be circumvented in this instance. Though the FAA has a 

responsibility to fulfill the requiremen ts laid upon it by national defense, it is 

prima rily an agency with responsibilities for the promotion, encouragement, 

development, and regu lation of civil aviation.

The House committee in 1957 studied the matter of civil versus militar y 

lead ership of the Agency extensively and concluded with this statement on 

the pa rt of the managers of the bill. ‘‘The requirement in section 301(b) th at 

the Administrator be a civilian at the time of his nom ination means that he 

shall be a civilian in the str ictest sense of the word.” [Emphasis ours.] It 

is also evident that the Preside nt recognizes that General McKee does not meet 

the st atutory requirements for nomination as A dministrator.

It will be argued that militar y inpu ts are essential to the proper function ing 

of the FAA in providing for the national defense needs with respe ct to airspac e 

and ai r traffic control. We agree. But we disagree that thi s requires a militarytra ine d man at the head of the Agency. Neither our Pre sident, nor Vice President is a general and neither ar e the Secretaries of Defense, the Navy, the Air 

Force or the Army, or their deputies. There is no need fo r it to be so with the 

FAA.

AOPA firmly holds that no person who has been tra ined for and served in 

professional military capacity for over 10 yea rs shall be appointed as either 

Administrat or or Deputy A dm inistrator of the FAA.
40 AP PO IN TM EN T OF FAA ADM INIS TRA TOR

AO PA ha s re peate dly opposed th e ap po in tm en t of m il it ary pe rs on ne l to es se nti al ly civil de cisi on m ak in g po sts . I t fo ught vigo ro us ly fo r th e pri nci ple of 

civi lian le ad ers hip whe n th e F edera l A vi at io n Act w as be ing d ra ft ed an d has 

de fend ed a nd r e it e ra te d this p os iti on i n te stim on y be fo re b oth Hou se s of Con gr es s 

upon re pe at ed oc ca sion s.

AOPA even qu izze d th e la te Jo hn F. Ken ne dy w he n he w as se ek in g th e P re sidency as to his view s on th is su bje ct an d obt ai ne d re co gn iti on of th e pr ob lem. 

Pre si den t Ken ne dy a ppoin te d a ci vi lia n.

AO PA be ar s no an im us fo r G en er al Mc Kee pe rs on al ly . I t does not kn ow him 

no r ha ve AO PA offic ials met him or had an y co nv er sa tion s w it h him. T he 

AOPA po sitio n is ba se d pu re ly on th e princ ip le th a t ci vilia n- or ie nt ed pe op le 

shou ld he ad th e ag en ci es of th e U.S. Gov er nm en t in ke ep ing w ith long est ab ­

lish ed an d ge ne ra lly ad her ed to princ ip le s of A m er ic an Gov ernm en t.

Mr. Williams. In this statement, Mr. Chairman—and I assume 

you approve this statement.

Mr. H artranft. Yes; I am giving the recording secretary a copy 

of it.

Mr. Williams. Than k you.

Mr. Hartranft, were you expressing your honest and candid views, 

in this press release or in this statement after you talked with Mr. 

Webb?

Mr. Hartranft. Mr. Williams, I think that my statement today 

confirms the press release. My statement today says the essence of 

our condition now is tha t the AOPA has determined that it will not 

press its open position to this bill because of the representation of the 

President of the United States tha t there are factors involved in his 

judgment and in the selection of his candidate for FAA Administrator 

which were not known and not part of the available record to us at 

the time of the press release.

Our basic open position to this is clear. I have stated t hat we have 

had a consistency of position in this and tha t we have not changed 

our beliefs with respect to the principles involved.

Mr. Williams. All right, sir. You are relating today's position 

to the statement you made in your release.

I presume you now see a persuasive and overwhelming reason why 

it should be set aside.

Mr. Hartranft. Yes; I think we have covered tha t lief ore.

Mr. Williams. Wha t is that reason, specifically?

Mr. Hartranft. The reason is specifically the request of the President with respect to what he considers to be overwhelming interest 

in the national defense which presumably involve the two issues which 

have been discussed here before, the most important of which I judge 

to be the matter of the situation the Nation faces with respect to its 

foreign commitments and the ability of the President to build a working team to reach solutions-----

Mr. Williams. What has the FAA Administrator got to do with 

foreign commitments and why should a military man be in that office ?

Mr. H artranft. I thin k again, sir, the detail of “why,” which you 

seek, runs to a dry well because I am not informed in detail by the 

President what his considerations may be.

Mr. Williams. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Hartra nft-----

Mr. Hartranft. May I complete that? But the overall operations 

of the FAA including as it does both the military and the civil aspects of airspace and air traffic control immediately runs to the 

problem.
APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 41

Now the President has made a judgment. I don’t know whether 

tha t judgment is a correct judgment or whether it is not a correct 

judgment.

Air. Williams. You didn’t take tha t position when the President 

decided to name General Quesada, did you ?

Mr. Hartranft. What was the question, sir?

Mr. Williams. I say when President Eisenhower named General 

Quesada the AOPA d idn’t exactly take the same position, did it?

Mr. H artranft. I think it did, sir.

Mr. Williams. I don’t recall the AOPA coming by and suggesting 

tha t we waive that civilian requirement for General Quesada?

Mr. Hartranft. I believe in our testimony we opposed the installation of a military man in tha t post.

Mr. Williams. That is right. And I go along with you 100 percent 

in that.

Mr. Hartranft. I don't have copies of our testimony at that time.

Mr. Williams. Air. Chairman, you have to answer that rollcall. 

I am not going to ask him any more questions.

Mr. Hartranft. I am sure we have had a complete consistency of 

position on this question.

Fhe Chairman. We are going to come back at 2 :30.

Mr. Williams. Let me ask one more question and I am through 

and I thin k we can excuse Mr. Ha rtra nft.

Isn ’t it a fact, Air. Hartra nft, that following the issuance of this 

initial press release in opposition to General AIcKee’s nomination, a 

subsequent visit by Air. Webb tha t practically everybody in the hierarchy of the AOPA said they don’t want to go through tha t again ?

Figuratively speaking, of course.

Air. Hartranft. No; I don’t believe tha t is exactly the situation, 

Congressman. We are pretty well on the record even back as f ar as 

1950 in our recommendations which were accepted by the Bureau of 

the Budget when the militarization of the then CAA was under consideration tha t we have stated our point very clearly.

Air. Williams. You have reached the wrongest conclusions for some 

of the Tightest reasons of somebody I have ever seen.

AVe are going to have to get on.

The Chairman. Do you want him to come back again later ?

Mr. Williams. No.

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Ha rtranft, for your 

appearance and presentation here. Is Air. Scott in the room?

Could you come back about 2 :30 this afternoon ?

Air. Scott. Yes, sir; I can.

The Chairman. The committee will recess until 2:30 this afternoon 

or as soon thereafter as the rollcall or business on the floor will permit.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the committee recessed to reconvene at 

2 :30 p.m. the same day.)

after recess

(The committee reconvened a t 2:30 p.m., Hon. Oren Harris , c hairman of the committee, presiding.)

The Chairman. The committee will come to order.

The other witness we scheduled for today is Air. David Scott, executive vice president of the National Pilots Association.
42 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. Scott, I want to say that we are sorry to have detained you. 

We wanted to get to you this morning but you saw the committee was 

quite interested in th e information from the witnesses who were here 

so we were unable to get to you before we had to adjourn to the House.

We did want to come back, as we are, in order to hear you on the 

subject today.

STATEMENT OF DAVID H. SCOTT, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT. 

NATIONAL PILOTS ASSOCIATION

Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I felt the morning session 

was very much worthwhile and I learned a g reat deal from it. I do 

not think anything th at I learned will change my testimony and therefore I would like to present a paper th at was very carefully prepared 

by our board of directors.

My name is David H. Scott. I am the executive vice president of the 

National Pilots Association. This association has a general membership at the present time of a little over 4,700 pilots. Many of these 

members are professional pilots with the air carriers or the military 

services but also have an interest in general aviation through ownership of personal aircraft.

By and large, the National Pilots Association is made up of pilots 

who use aircraft for cross-country transportation for business and 

pleasure.

The National Pilots Association has had only a brief time to study 

I LB. 7777. It has been necessary for us to contact our board of directors by telephone to arrive at an agreed-upon position concerning th is 

legislation. Incidentally, our board of directors includes a former 

Deputy Administrator of the Federal Aviation Agency and also a 

former Administrator of the Civil Aeronautics Administration. So 

we bring to this problem some element of experience.

All reports that we have received concerning Gen. William F. McKee 

indicate that he is a man of outstanding talents and ability, particularly in the field of management. He has had a distinguished career 

with the U.S. Air Force and has served ably with the National A eronautics and Space Administration. We have no doubt that he could 

make important contributions to the Federal Aviation Agency.

We are impressed with the concern of Congress in 1958 in dra ftin g 

the Federal Aviation Act to provide that the Administrator of the 

Agency be a civilian at the time of his nomination by the President. 

Congress did not, however, preclude the appointment of a noncivilian 

to the position of Deputy Administrator.

To take action which will nullify this specific determination of Congress in order to suit a special situation should be warranted only on 

the basis that there is no acceptable alternative. We are not convinced 

tha t there is no possibility of finding a qualified civilian to serve in 

this important position as Administrator of the Federal Aviation 

Agency or to find a place in the Federal Aviation Agency to use the 

talents of General McKee without changing the provisions of the law 

as originally drafted.

It has been reported, and I think the statement was also made here 

this morning, that the President chose General McKee for the post 

of Administrator because he particularly wanted a man who would
APPOINTMEN T OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 43

accelerate the supersonic transport program. The SST is a dramatic 

program but there are other activities of the Agency which are most 

important even if not so spectacular. We feel the new A dministrator 

of the FAA should initia te programs that would accelerate development of practical STOL or VTOL passenger airc raft to solve the 

problem of mass transportation on relatively short-haul intercity 

travel. Although not as spectacular this could well prove more beneficial to more people than the SST.

Internationa] aviation problems are. becoming of increasing importance and we question whether a man with a militaiy background 

is the ideal choice to deal with representatives of foreign governments 

in this field.

Lastly, in our own area of general aviation, we feel that problems 

will be created by the appointment of a military career man to the 

post of Administrator. Most general aviation pilots that are active today remember the unfortu nate reputation of the early days of the 

Federal Aviation Agency when the Adm inistrator was a former Air 

Force general. To many of these pilots it appeared that the Agency 

was being operated as a police force. It took several years of patient 

personal grassroots contacts with pilots for the present Administrator 

to transform the image of the Agency to the ‘‘Friendly Aviation 

Agency.”

There is a tradition in the executive department of the U.S. Government that military career men will not be appointed to the head of 

civilian agencies. Congress has supported this tradition by writing 

such a provision into the Federal Aviation Act of 1958. Unless there 

is some overwhelming evidence that there is no other acceptable solution, we believe the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 should stand as written and H.R. 7777 should not be approved.

Mr. Chairman, may we express our sincere appreciation for this opportunity to appear here and submit our views before your distinguished committee.

The Chairman. Mr. Scott, thank you very much for your testimony 

and expressing the views of your association.

I guess maybe you thin k this is a naive question, but what is the difference between your organization, National Pilots Association, and 

the AOPA.

Mr. Scott. Mr. Chairman, I am asked tha t question several times a 

day.

The Chairman. I am sorry I bothered with it, then.

Mr. Scott. No, sir. Please do not accept my remark as being 

facetious or trying to cast it aside, I just wanted to assure you tha t you 

had not asked a question th at was unusual.

The National Pilots Association’s officers and directors are elected 

bv ballot by all the membership, or at least those who wish to participate in the vote.

We have an election once a year. We are very stric tly a noncommercial organization; we have nothing to sell at any time. We operate 

in the purest sense of the word as an association that devotes 100 percent of its time to aviation problems. I can enlarge upon this at great 

extent, but I trus t tha t tha t answers the most pertinent part of your 

question.

The Chairman. Well, yes, with one exception. Are they all pr imarily civilian pilots? ,
44 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. Scott. No, sir; we have quite a variety of military pilots, air carrier pilots. It so happens th at Bob Buck of TW A is No. 1 member of 

the National Pilots Association as he was the first one to sign up and 

help organize our association 10 years ago.

The Chairman. How’ many of the members do you say would be 

military ?

Mr. S cott. Well, I would have to take a wild guess at that because 

sometimes when members write in they do not tell us fully what their 

background is. It is not a large percentage, certainly. I would say 

just as a wild guess somewhere around 5 or 6 or 7 percent. We are 

contemplating the installation of IBM equipment this year and I trust 

tha t we would be able to answer a question like tha t much more 

accurately.

The Chairman. Now I would suppose in view of the fact tha t 

comparatively speaking there are only relatively few commercial pilots 

in the country, then the members who are commercial pilots of your 

association would also be rather small.

Mr. Scott. I am not sure if I understand what you mean by “commercial pilots” because a g reat many of our members fly for business 

purposes and are so-called corporate pilots, and, of course, they have 

commercial ratings.

Now if you mean air carrier pilots-----

The Chairman. Yes. I had in mind for the commercial airlines.

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. Well, unless an air carrier p ilot has some personal interest in aviation such as the ownership of a small aircraft, the 

chances are he would not be a member of the National Pilots Association.

The Chairman. The large number of your members are composed 

of private pilots for private planes and business executives, and so 

forth .

Air. Scott. Yes, sir; that, is true. We do have some ATR pilot ratings but not for professional use.

The Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. Williams?

Mr. Williams. Air. Chairman, I have no questions except to compliment Air. Scott and his organization for not taking to the hills in the 

same fashion that the AO PA did, and I want to congratulate him on 

the courage that has been exhibited by his association in taking a firm 

stand with regard to the principles involved here.

This is not necessarily implying any criticism of the fine gentleman 

whose name has been suggested for the position, nor does it disparage 

his qualifications for the position.

I do feel tha t this organization should be complimented for his appearance to a basic principle which has been enunciated by the Congress and which has previously been endorsed by his association.

Thank you, Air. Chairman.

The Chairman. Air. Callaway.

Air. Callaway. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have nothing except to say that as a member of your association I 

appreciate very much your testimony. I thin k tha t the particular 

significant part that I read was on the second page, “Unless there is 

some overwhelming evidence.” This would be my comment. Unless 

we c<m find some overwhelming evidence, I should think tha t the
APPOINTMEN T OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 45

intent of the Congress to have a civilian head of the FAA should be 

dealt with that way.

Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Callaway. At the tim e this paper was 

presented, I was not aware of any efforts being made personally by the President with any other group. As the testimony disclosed this morning, there might be some overwhelming evidence but I do not see it and I still th ink our statement should stand unless we hear other 

information.

Mr. Callaway. Yes. I have not seen it yet, either. In light of 

some new evidence, I might change my position. As of now, I would 

like to see a civilian as the head of the FAA.

The Chairman. Mr. Pickle?

Mr. Pickle. Are you saying that the fact the President appointed 

a man recommended by his experts in the field is not a compelling 

reason ?

Mr. Scott. Well, you have me on the spot there, Mr. Pickle. I 

would say th at anyone here certainly has respect for the President’s judgment, but I think what is lacking is tha t the evidence has not been given to us in detail as to what this overwhelming urgency is.

Mr. P ickle. I do not mean to put you on the spot at all, and I am 

sure you understand. I know it is a hard search to find just the man. It seems the President has found the man and that is why he is asking 

for this exception.

I have no further questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Broyhill ?

Mr. Broyhill. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Mr. Kornegay ?

Mr. Kornegay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have no questions. I would like to thank Mr. Scott for coming here and making a very 

fine and forthright statement. Thank you, Mr. Scott.

The Chairman. Mr. Curtin ?

Mr. Curtin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Scott, does the National Pilots Association speak for practically 

all the pilots of commercial airlines ?

Mr. Scott. No, sir.

Mr. Curtin. I s there another association which they are connected 

with ?

Mr. Scott. You may be refer ring to the Air Line Pilots Association which is made up of th e air carrier pilots. We are essentially a general aviation group but we do have a small percentage of air car­ rier pilots and a small percentage of military pilots, but it is not 

predominant.

Mr. Curtin. Would you be in a position to say what percentage of 

airline pilots your association does represent ? Air. Scour. We would represent a very small proportion of the total 

airline pilots. I am just trying to rack my memory. I thin k there is something 

like 35,000 or 40,000 airline pilots who are qualified to fly for the airlines and our total membership here is a little over 4,700 and grows 

about a hundred a month. Even so, we are a small group.

We thin k we are a rath er select group in the sense that we are rather 

highly qualified. Many of ou r members, although they are. not flying 

professionally, are instrument rated pilots.
46 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. Curtin. So that your association is made up of some airline 

pilots, some military pilots and some pilots of private planes—mostly 

pilots of private planes.

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. I would say that at least, and here I am guessing again, lacking the IB M equipment, but 85 percent of our members 

I would say would fall into the category of being general aviation 

pilots and possibly 15 percent military and a ir carrier.

Air. Curtin. That is all.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Williams. Would the gentleman yield ?

Mr. Scott, for some of the members who are not closely associated 

with aviation, would you explain that private pilots and commercial 

pilots and airline pilots hold certificates or ratings tha t are issued by 

the Federal Aviation Agency?

In other words, a private "license is a license which permits a person 

to fly but not for hire. A commercial license permits him to fly for 

hire. An airline rating, of course, permits him to fly an air carrier.

Now there is a distinction, I think, which should be drawn here 

for the enlightenment of th e committee as between a person who holds 

a commercial pilot’s r ating and a person who is a professional commercial pilot.

I think maybe that is confusing some of the members of the committee. Do you feel that that is significant enough to explain to them 

the difference between a professional pilot and a person holding a commercial pilot’s rating which does not necessarily imply that lie is a 

professional pilot ?

Mr. Scott. I think you have made it very clear, Mr. Williams. Tha t 

is quite true. I do not know how I can add to your statement. It is 

clear to me and I trust it would be clear to the other members of the 

committee.

Mr. Curtin. Thank you. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Mr. Friedel?

Mr. Friedel. Mr. Chairman. I want to thank Mr. Scott for a fine 

statement. I notice that he has become a steady visitor. He appeared 

yesterday before the subcommittee on IT.R. 699 on holding Bolling 

Field open for the general aviation.

There is only one question I want to ask. On page 2 you mention 

STO L or YTOL. I wish you would explain that.

Mr. Scott. You wish me to explain that ?

Mr. F riedel. Yes.

Mr. Scott. STOL is commonly known as short take-off and landing aircraft and YTOL is vertical takeoff and landing aircraft.

Mr. F riedel. All right. That is all. Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Mr. Younger?

Mr. Younger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This morning when Mr. Ha rtr an ft appeared there was some mention made about a gentleman by the name of Mr. Webb. I)o you know 

the gentleman Mr. Webb that they are referring to ?

Mr. Scott. I met Mr. Webb on onlv one occasion when I rode with 

him and Mr. Halaby to Houston, Tex., from Washington, D.C. This 

was about 2 years ago. 1 guess now, and I have had no contact with 

Mr. Webb since that time.

Mr. Younger. Is that the Mr. Webb of NASA ?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir: Air. James Webb.
AP PO IN TM EN T OF FAA ADMIN ISTRAT OR 47

Mr. Younger. And tha t General McKee works for now ?

Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.

Mr. Younger. And he has not talked with you about, this situation?

Mr. Scott. No.

Mr. Younger. 1 was jus t interested because it is hard for me to 

understand why Mr. Webb would be so anxious to recommend General 

McKee for another job. I just do not see that in the picture. I would 

like to get some further information on that.

The Chairman. Wei 1, I think probably that should not be a question to go in the record and leave standing like this. Mr. James Webb 

is the. Administrator of NASA. Mr. Webb in his responsibility, is 

charged with the expenditures of over $5 billion each year in connection with their program, NASA is paying for the service of this 

man, after he retired, because of the special knowledge he lias in this 

field.

The choice was made throu gh the usual way of trying to find the 

best possible man available for the particular work and one who would 

meet all other requirements.

The. President asked Mr. Webb about it. Mr. Webb, I am informed, 

highly recommended General McKee to the President. Mr. Webb did 

not necessarily want to get rid of him; he would like to keep him 

very much, but in order to meet the overall responsibility of the President, this man was tapped fo r this position.

I think it should be made very clear for the record, even though 

most of the members of the committee have already highly commended 

General McKee as being a man of outstanding ability and a great 

record, that there is no hint whatsoever that this is General McKee’s 

doing. ITe is a man who has made himself available to serve any 

place that he can serve his country, whether it is at NASA or in the 

military where he served fo r 35 years. I believe he is qualified for the 

position th at we have here unde r consideration todav.

Mr. Y ounger. Mr. Chairman, may I say this? I have some 17 

years’ experience in Government service. I think this is the first time 

that I have seen such an experience as this where a Director of one 

organization is selected to pick a man for another organization and he 

picks one of his own men for that job. 1 have seen a lot of this bureaucracy in 17 years of service around Washington but. this is the 

first experience I have had, which is to me rathe r unusual, to say the 

least.

The Chairman. It may be to the gentleman unusual, bu t the record 

shows it is not unusual at a ll. During AYorld Wa r II, th e most outstand ing example that. I can think of in my experience., and yours, 

too, is when General Marshall, who was the top m ilitary man of this 

country during tha t tragic World Wa r I I period, was given a special 

dispensation and was made Secretary of Defense.

We can just name innumerable ones who have come along and have 

gone from one agency to another. Only recently from the CAB has 

Chairm an Boyd gone to Und er Secretary of the Department of 

Commerce. We can mention many others along with this.

Mr. Williams. Mr. Chairman, in support of the President, General 

Eisenhower was taken out of the mililtarv and made President.

Mr. Younger. That is correct, at the will of the voters. As fa r as 

General Marshall is concerned, he was a direct appointee of the Presi-
48 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

den t at the time and moved to the Defense Dep artm en t af te r we were 

in w ar, wh ich is a very n at ura l thin g.

Th e Chairman. In o rd er th at th e record m ay n ot reflect a gai n, this 

general is a direct ap point ee of the presen t Pr es iden t of the Un ite d 

Sta tes .

An y fu rthe r questions or reflections?

Mr. Younger. No reflection s at all, ju st com me nting th at it is a 

ra th er un usu al c ircumstance th at we hav e here.

Th e Chairman. That is the g entle ma n’s opinio n. I d o n ot th ink it 

is un usual at all and I th in k th e record sho uld show reflect.

Mr. F rie de l ?

Mr. F riedel. I do no t th in k a ny m an t hat is v ery able, an d is p ra ctic all y a retir ed man, should lose his pension if h e is cal led upon fo r 

his services, or that his wife an d family sho uld be pu nished and lose 

the pension. Tha t is why I am in favo r of th is bill. We have done i t 

before.

Th e Chairman. O f cou rse it ca n also be rem embered in othe r fields 

th at Se na tor George, one of th e greatest public servan ts we ever had 

in the Con gress and who also served in the Senate, was called upo n 

fo r spe cial service and the Congres s provide d a special dispen sation 

fo r him t o continu e to draw hi s con gres sion al retir em en t an d acco mplish th at purpose. Se na tor George was fro m the gentl em an's own 

hom e S tate.

We might recall an othe r spe cial exception was m ade w hen o ur very 

gen teel south ern gen tlem an an d colleague, the Ho no rab le Dic k Ri ch ­

ard s, of So uth Ca rolina , who was chair ma n of the Fo re ign Aff airs 

Comm itte e of the House, was g ive n special dis pensation t o pe rfon n a 

special service.

We w ill not keep it on the side of the Democrats. Jim G ulliv er re ­

ceived a special dispensa tion in orde r th at h e m ight serve in th at capa cit y and no t be pen alized beca use of it. Th ere are a lot of precede nts if we are goi ng to use pre ced ent s with rega rd to special dis ­

pen sation .

Th ere is an oth er matt er which 1 have concern abo ut, the commission. 

I know the sincer ity th at ha s been expressed by my colleagu es here 

abo ut th e basic policy.

Mr. Scott, were you in accord with the selectio n of Ge neral Q uesa da 

as the first Adm inist rator of th e FA A since he res ign ed tem po rar ily 

his commission?

Mr. Scott. Ar e you askin g m e if I was p ers onally involved in that?

Th e Chairman. No ; I ju st ask ed if you a pprov ed of th at action.

Mr. Scott. Well, at t he tim e, Mr. Ch air ma n, I was no t active with 

the Na tio nal Pilot s Assoc iation in any way an d th is was a lit tle bit 

ahe ad o f my time.

The C hairman. It ha s only been 7 years ago.

Mr. S cott. Yes, s ir; b ut I h ave been acti ve with the N ation al P ilo ts 

Assoc iation since 1961.

Th e Chairman. As I unders too d, the ge neral fee ling of most eve rybody w as it was all rig ht fo r G enera l Que sada to serve in t hat cap acity 

pr ov id in g he resigned his comm ission. I th in k the gentlem an fro m 

Ge orgia h it on th at th is mo rni ng. A man ju st cannot res ign his commission an d say this is goin g t o m eet the ba sic pro blem which is i nco rpo rated in the so-called d esc rip tion.
APPOINTMEN T OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 49

Mr. Callaway. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for mentioning tha t 

because this is very much my concern. I appreciate very much your pointing out our Senator, Senator George. He was one of the great Americans I was pleased to know. I think in a situation like this Senator George had a unique capability and his country needed him, and quite properly he was given this chance to serve his Nation. My concern is tha t there seems to be a continual military-civilian 

fight in the FAA. We mentioned this morning something about the open spaces. The military is basically for—this is an oversimplification—controlled ai r­ space, general aviation is basically for free and open airspace.

You see it in navigation systems. A while back, I think you referred to it this morning, the military was basically for a TACAN system, general aviation was basically for an OMNI system. The military was basically for a set of doctors who are licensed to give physical examinations to individual pilots, 

the civilians were for any local doctor being able to do it. I think you just find day after day afte r day a human major con­ sideration where civilians take one position and the military the other. My whole concern is tha t in the absence of some overwhelming 

reason, I would just prefer to see a civilian as the head. Now I hope we will have a chance to hear from someone like Mr. Webb who perhaps can tell us these compelling reasons. I will cer­ tainly be very much in favor of General McKee who is no doubt a competent general, but I would prefer a civilian because I feel that the military will always have their representation but the FAA head it 

seems to me, should basically be civil ian oriented.

The Chairman. I would like to say to the gentleman that the 

Congress and the committee has tackled all those problems tha t the gentleman has mentioned and we are in favor of civilian aviation. We did it in the TACAN fight, we did it in the other problems th at 

he has mentioned. The real concern th at was highlighted when we rewrote what was called the old Civil Aeronautics Act, was that in taking over so many thousands of those who were a part of the military that it would be turned into a civilian organization dominated by the military.

This committee saw tha t that did not happen.

Mr. Callaway. I appreciate that.

The Chairman. It did not happen and in my judgment it is not going to happen. "We have made it very clear in our air traffic con­ trol program that this would be operated under a civilian dominated organization, and the military had to give in, too. I think this com­ mittee and the associations like those represented by Mr. Scott and by others who would be interested are going to see tha t it goes along. Now I will say to the gentleman you have had more information here as to the compelling reason given by Mr. Macy and as brough t to us than was ever permitted and put on record as to Senator George lieing the kind of a man particularly suited for that. Now I will say this, that this man was particularly suited to the responsibility that he had to meet and the problems that he had. It involved military, too. I should thin k that it is understood there are compelling reasons; many of them we cannot drag out here and 

discuss in the open.
50 APPOINTMENT OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. Williams. In view of com pensation, th is issue invo lved here 

concern s a basic law wh ich sets ou t a specific qualif ication th at shall 

be possessed by the no minee ; th at is, t hat he sha ll be a civilian.

As I see it, the question in view of com pen sation an d wh eth er or 

no t the general will re ta in his mili tary fri ng e benefits, an d so fo rth, 

is rea lly no t a gr ea t deal of concern, it is th e que stio n of wh ethe r 

th e princ iple which was w rit ten into t he act in 1958 is going to sta nd 

as a req uir em ent of the qua lifications fo r the Adm in istrator ’s office 

or wh eth er the Congres s is goi ng to continu e to subm it to requ ests 

fo r w aiv ing this pr inciple from tim e to time.

We hav e been asked to waive it now twice. As fa r as Gener al 

Quesa da is concerned, a n a tte mpt was m ade to p er m it G ene ral Quesada 

to tak e over the position as Adm in istra tor an d re ta in his m ili ta ry 

sta tus. Tha t was ref used b y the Congress.

Subsequent to th at tim e, Gen eral Quesada severed all conn ections 

with the military and then th at eliminated the issue, he becam e a 

civ ilian and he qualified . I t wou ld ap pe ar to me th at if General 

McK ee is sufficiently inter ested in ge tti ng this office and taki ng th is 

over, th at if he wa nts to become qualified , all he ha s to do is resign.

I am not suggesting th at he sever his connections with the military, 

bu t if he wants to become qualified and is wi lling to pay the price, 

it is a very simple m atter fo r him to become qualified.

I t appears to me th at we are going back on som eth ing th at we 

hav e wr itten into the law an d which the rep ort of the conferees 

sta ted th at t he Adm in istrat or shall be a civ ilia n in the strict est sense 

o f the word.

Th is is enti rel y diffe ren t fro m the appoint me nt of Gener al Que sada 

aft er he had resigned his commission. Tha t issue was not invo lved 

then. Th is is a q ues tion of wh eth er the man is qualified by virtu e of 

being a military m an.

Th e Chair man. I would say t o the gen tlem an th at I app rec iate------

Mr. Williams. I am no t talking about his indiv idu al qualifiac tions.

Th e Chairma n. I ap prec iate th at . I did no t make the matter as 

clea r as certainl y th e ge ntl em an fro m Geo rgia has in mind, because 

as he pointed out a mo me nt ago, to resign t he po sition in the m ilitary 

does no t change his mental attit ud e and his personal attit ud e in so fa r 

as t he th ing s he believes in.

I f he is goi ng to ca rry th at ou t t o the fu ll philosop hic al vie wp oin t, 

then the th ing to do is prev en t anybod y in the m ili ta ry fr om becomin g 

head of t he Age ncy. I t seems to me t ha t is the issue M r. Rog ers mentio ned this mo rning, maybe, we can wre stle with th is whole sub ject 

du ring the con sideration o f thi s thin g.

Mr. Williams. Ex cept fo r the fact th at General McK ee is a milita ry man and is specific ally preclu ded by law fro m taking the job 

of Adm inist rator, the que stion of his qua lification s would be one fo r 

the Senate to det erm ine in connection with his con firm ation.

I lie q uestion here is whe ther we are g oin g to wai ve a basic r eq uireme nt in the law with res pect to the c ivilian control over the military.

Th e Chair man. W hich the Con gress has the righ t to do.

Mr. Willia ms. Of cou rse they have the righ t to do.

Mr. I riedel. Mr. Ch airm an , t his mo rni ng Mr. Macy testified re fe rring to H .R. 7777. On page 4 he sa ys :

Section 2 of H.R. 7777 provides that General McKee, while serving as FAA 

Admin istrator, shall he subject to no supervision control, restriction, or pro-
APPOINTMEN T OF FAA ADMINISTRATOR 51

hib itio n (m il it ary or oth erw is e) be ca us e of hi s st atu s as a re ti re d R egula r 

A ir For ce officer. As A d m in is tr ato r he will, of co urse, be su bje ct to th e su per ­

vision of th e P re si dent an d w ill re port to him on hi s st ew ard sh ip of th is office.

The Chairman. Mr. Scott, thank you very much.

No further questions.

Mr. O’Brien, did you have any questions ?

Mr. O’Brien. No, I do not, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Dr. Carter, any questions?

Dr. Carter. No questions.

The Chairman. Mr. Scott, if there are no further questions, again 

on behalf of the committee, I thank you for your presence here and 

your testimony on this subject matter.

Mr. Scott. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. The committee will adjourn subject to call of the 

Chair on this particular bill.

(The following letter was received for the record:)

Air Tran spo rt Asso cia tio n, 

W as hing ton, D.C., M ay 7, 1965.

Hon . Oren H arr is.

Chairman, Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee,

U.S. House of Representatives, Washington. D.C.

Dear Mr. Cha irman : On b eh alf o f the mem be rs of th e A ir T ra n sp o rt A ssoc iatio n, I am w riting to ex pre ss su pport of II.R . 7777. which wou ld au th ori ze th e 

P re sid en t to ap po in t Gen . W illiam F. McKee (U .S. A ir For ce , re ti re d ) to th e 

Office of A dm in is tr at or of th e F ed era l A vi at io n Ag enc y, notw it hst andin g s ec tio n 

301 ( b ) of th e Fed er al A vi at io n Ac t.

The Fed er al A vi at io n A ct o f 1958. of co urse, pr ov id es t h a t th e F ed er al A vi atio n 

Agency sh ou ld be hea de d by a civi lia n. T his w as an im p o rt an t p a rt of th e 

a ct an d th e A ir T ra n sp o rt A ss oc ia tio n in its te st im on y su pp ort ed th e pr ov isions 

of s ec tio n 301 (b ).

W e st il l su pp ort th is pri ncip le bu t, sin ce th e P re sid en t has fo un d a m an of 

su ch ex ce llen t qu al ific at io ns an d ba ck gr ou nd to fill th is im port ant po sitio n, 

an ex ce pt io n see ms w arr an te d . By ha ndling th e ex ce pt io n in a m an ner which 

li m it s ap pr ov al to th e pre se nt no mi nee, as well as th e in cl us io n of se ct ion 3 

of H.R . 7777, an ad eq uat e ch ec k is pr es er ve d ag ain st er os io n of th e princ ip le 

itse lf .

Cor dially,

S. G. Tip to n, P re si d en t.

(Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the committee adjourned.)