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AffiNA STAT IIIMFRSIlY LIBRARIES TV,

NOMINATION

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON

DR AND PUBLIC WELFARE

= INITED STATES SENATE

NINETIETH CONGRESS

_a SECOND SESSION 1-R

ON

'H JANE KUCK, OF ILLINOIS, TO BE A MEMBER

-E_TAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION

JANUARY 25, 1968

Printed for the use of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

8c4-,.572 WASHINGTON : 1968
COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE

LISTER HILL, Alabama, Chairman

WAYNE MORSE, Oregon

RALPH YARBOROUGH, Texas

JOSEPH S. CLARK, Pennsylvania

JENNINGS RANDOLPH, West Virginia

HARRISON A. WILLIAMS, JR., New Jersey

CLAIBORNE PELL, Rhode Island

EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts

GAYLORD NELSON, Wisconsin

ROBERT F. KENNEDY, New York

JACOB K. JAVITS, New York

WINSTON L. PROUTY, Vermont

PETER H. DOMINICK, Colorado

GEORGE MURPHY, California

PAUL J. FANNIN, Arizona

ROBERT P. GRIFFIN, Michigan

STEWART E. Mc CLURE, Chief Clerk

JOHN S. FORSYTHE, General Counsel

EUGENE MITTELMAN, Minority Counsel

(y)
NOMINATION

THURSDAY, JANUARY 25, 1968

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met at 11:15 a.m., pursuant to call, in room 4232,

New Senate Office Building, Senator Lister Hill (chairman of the

committee) presiding.

Present: Senators Hill, Yarborough, Williams, Pell, Prouty, and

Fannin.

Committee staff members present: Stewart E. McClure, chief clerk;

and John S. Forsythe, general counsel.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will kindly come to order.

Miss Kuck, come up please and have a seat right here.

STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH 3. KUCK

Miss KUCK. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. As you know, we have the full committee which

has your nomination to be a member of the Equal Employment

Opportunity Commission for the remainder of the term expiring

July 1, 1970.

I have here a biographical sketch which I will put in the record.

We are very happy to have you make any statement now that you

might see fit as to your feeling on your qualifications for this position.

Miss KUCK. Well, I am looking forward to the opportunity of filling

this assignment. It is a field in which I have had a great deal of interest

for many years.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you had any background of experience along

this line?

Miss Ku-ex. Yes, Senator; I feel that I have. It has been from a

business and industry standpoint, plus outside connections, work with

the Urban League on a voluntary basis, and some other organizations.

The CHAIRMAN. I note you are one of the 20 members-at-large of

the National Delegate Assembly of the National Urban League, and

also a member of the Illinois Status of Women Committee and the

Advisory Committee to the Illinois Fair Employment Practice Commission, former chairwoman of the Public Affairs Committee for Zonta

International in Chicago, and alternate member of the President's

Committee for the Employment of the Handicapped; is that correct?

Miss KUCK. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. A member of the National Defense Executive

Reserve of the U.S. Department of Labor. How long have you had

that connection with the Department of Labor?

Miss KUCK. Going on 4 years.

(11
2

The CHAIRMAN. Four years. How long have you been an alternate

member of the President's Committee for the Employment of the

Handicapped?

Miss KucK. That must be at least 10 years.

The CHAIRMAN. Ten years?

Miss KucK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you know my old friend and colleague Mel

Maas?

Miss KucK. Yes, I did.

The CHAIRMAN. A wonderful man.

Miss Kum Yes, he was.

The CHAIRMAN. He was a wonderful man. As blind as he was,

how he got all over this country— •

Miss KucK. An amazing individual.

The CHAIRMAN (continuing). To carry the message for the handicapped was an inspiring and wonderful thing, wasn't it?

Miss Kuca. Yes, it was.

The CHAIRMAN. It was a wonderful thing indeed. You are at present

supervisor for personnel policies and procedures at the headquarters

of the International Harvester Co. in Chicago?

Miss KucK. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you had that position?

Miss KucK. I have been in that position for about 12 years.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. Twelve years?

Miss KucK. Yes, sir. I have been with the company going on 27

years.

The CHAIRMAN. You were born in Wisconsin, attended the Universities of Minnesota and Wisconsin, and did graduate work at the

University of Chicago and the Illinois Institute of Technology; is

that right?

Miss KucK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You did social work for the Family Welfare

Association of Minneapolis; is that correct?

Miss KucK. Correct.

(The biographical sketch of Miss Kuck follows:)

BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH OF MISS Kuck

President Johnson today announced his intention to nominate Elizabeth J.

Kuck of Chicago, Ill, for appointment to the Equal Employment Opportunity

Commission. She would succeed Aileen Hernandez, who resigned November 10,

1966 and whose term expires July 1, 1970. This position is subject to Senate

confirmation and pays $28,000 a year.

Miss Kuck is supervisor for Personnel Policies and Procedures at the Headquarters of the International Harvester Company in Chicago.

Miss Kuck was born in 1915 in Readstown, Wisconsin. She attended the

Universities of Minnesota and Wisconsin and has done graduate work at the

University of Chicago and the Illinois Institute of Technology. From 1938-39

she did social work for the Family Welfare Association of Minneapolis, and from

1939-41 she was associated with a Minneapolis real estate firm.

In 1941, Miss Kuck joined International Harvester as a factory

inspector in St. Paul, Minn. In 1942, she was given supervisory training and in 1943 was named women's supervisor at the International

Harvester Women's Tractor Works at Chicago. Later in 1943, she

was transferred to the Harvester War Depot at Toledo, Ohio, as chief

supervisor of women. Later in the same year she was transferred back

to Chicago as employment supervisor for International Harvester,
3

and she served in this capacity until 1951, when she was made general

supervisor for special personnel services. She served in that post

until 1959, when she was promoted to her present position.

Miss Kuck is active in civic and professional affairs. She is one of

20 members at large of the National Delegate Assembly of the National Urban League. She is also a member of the Illinois Status of

Women Committee and the Advisory Committee to the Illinois Fair

Employment Practice Commission. She is chairman of the Public

Affairs Committee for Zonta International in Chicago, and is an

alternate member of the President's Committee for the Employment

of the Handicapped. She is also a member of the National Defense

Executive Reserve of the U.S. Department of Labor.

Miss Kuck is an Independent and resides in Chicago.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions? Senator Yarborough?

Senator YARBOROUGH. No questions, Mr. Chairman. It seems to

me from this sketch here that Miss Kuck has anunusual amount of

experience in fields here that should be of great aid in carrying out

her duties with this Commission. She has been with this International

Harvester Co. for this number of years and in executive positions for

a long time and is now in this high position with reference to employment.

It seems to me that in dealing with companies and urging them to

adopt fair employment practices she has a peculiar experience here,

knowing how to persuade them peacefully and more expeditiously

to adopt fair employment practices without the Government being

forced to go to the courts.

I think that is a more efficient way to do it. She was employment

supervisor for International Harvester and then became general

supervisor for special personnel services.

It seems to me that she has a very, very fine background for service

on this Commission. You have to know both sides of the problem,

employee and employer both, it seems to me, on this Commission

to do the job it is designed for, to see that there are fair employment

opportunities, and knowing something about that employment,

is a very high requisite. I think she has unusual qualifications.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Fannin.

Senator FANNIN. Mr. Chairman, I. certainly agree. Miss Kuck, I

commend you for the excellent services that you have performed

over the years in many lines of civic activity and for your service

with your company. This is certainly something to be very proud

about and I think too, as Senator Yarborough has stated, that this

does qualify you quite well for what you will be doing since you have

had so much work in dealing with people and working with people

in supervisory training as well as in your other lines of activity and

with your personnel policies and procedures experience.

I am just wondering whether you favor voluntary programs where

we encourage people to comply or whether you think that it is necessary

to have the cease-and-desist authority which is now being requested?

Do you feel that the EEOC can operate more effectively by conciliation persuasion, or on the other hand by compulsion?

Miss kucx. Well, Senator, for many years I favored the voluntary

approach. I have come around to feeling that it is necessary for the

EEOC to have the cease-and-desist order in connection with its work.

I still prefer to see things worked out on a conciliatory basis,

however.
4

Senator FANNIN. I wonder how you have come to that conclusion.

I mean evidently with your success with your employment it would

not indicate that you have found it necessary in your personnel

policies and procedures at the International Harvester Co. to operate

on that basis.

Miss Kucx. No, I don't think we have, but I do know that early

in my career I felt that perhaps we didn't need a State FEPC, but I

changed my thinking in this respect. I find that as a whole business

and industry responds to this kind of thing.

Now, this would be used only as a last resort, I am sure, and there

is always the exception that simply will not go along, Senator.

Senator FANNIN. If we could believe that would be the only way,

but from the experience we have had with the EEOC to date I certainly wouldn't agree this would be true.

I think if you have cease and desist there would be a reluctance to

follow any other policy.

Miss Kucx. I feel that if it was overdone it would lose its effectiveness completely.

Senator FANNIN. I think it already has. Even without the cease

and desist I think that we have problems that have accumulated

already in the short time in which they have been operating that

indicates that this would be a problem in the future.

Now, in your personnel policies and procedures at the International

Harvester Co. have you dealt with union officials?

Miss Kucx. I have; not directly. I am not responsible for union

negotiations.

Senator FANNIN. Well, what role, if any, do you feel labor unions

should play in the EEOC company conciliation activities?

Miss Kucx. They should play a very important role, I think,

insofar as their own membership is concerned. Is this what we are

talking about, Senator?

Senator FANNIN. Yes. Should that role be one where the worker

would ask for assistance, or would it be something that the union

would initiate?

It seems that the Commission would like to abolish all testing, for

instance, unless it is "culturally validated." Do you feel that that

should be the case?

Miss Kticx. First, Senator, I really can't tell you what the attitude

of the Commission is because I am not on it and I haven't had occasion

to meet with them nor to know what their basic thinking would be

in some of these areas, so I would hesitate to comment on that.

Senator FANNIN. I wouldn't ask that question except that I am

sure, since you are interested and willing to accept this appointment,

that you have investigated and know what is involved and what has

been done, and since the Commission has only been in operation a

short time you are no doubt familiar with their activities.

Miss KUCK. I am somewhat familiar but not with what they have

done in some of these areas.

Senator FANNIN. Would you answer the question about abolishing

all tests unless the test is culturally validated. Do you feel it is fair

to a company, considering quality control and the necessity of the

exactness in so much of the work. Certainly this would be true in

International Harvester where one small part costing just a few dollars could be so detrimental in the building of a piece of equipment

that might cost millions of dollars.
5

Miss KUCK. Senator, I don't believe in the elimination of standards. I think every company has to have certain standards, but I

think they need to look at those standards in light of the jobs that

they are filling.

Senator FANNIN. I es; that is right, and so you would not favor

advancing people unless they were qualified and could pass the test.

Miss Kucx. That is correct. I believe 

Senator FANNIN. In the test.

Miss Kucx (continuing). In the promotion based on ability.

Senator FANNIN. So you would not be against tests.

Miss Kucx. I would not be against tests when they are job related.

Senator FANNIN. Do you think it is wise to eliminate certain basic

requirements for a job? For instance, do you favor the creation of

preferential promotion lists, and if you are going to have a preferential

promotion list on what basis would you favor it?

Miss Kucx. Well, I am not sure that I would favor the preferential

promotion list. It would depend on the circumstances surrounding it.

Senator FANNIN. You are firm in your belief that it should be on

the ability of the worker to perform the services involved.

Miss Kucx. Yes.

Senator FANNIN. I certainly agree with you and I commend you.

Do you believe that specially trained individuals should be hired in

preference to qualified applicants?

I think you have answered that question by saying that you do

favor tests and proven ability before a person is hired.

Miss Kucx. That is right.

Senator FANNIN. From what I have observed the EEOC favors

the abolition of job seniority and adoption of plant seniority. The

theory behind that is apparently that plantwide seniority would

permit unskilled workers to advance. I think you would agree that

they should be advanced on the basis of their abilities.

_ Miss Kucx. Yes, sir.

Senator FANNIN. And do you feel that seniority policy should

remain?

Miss Kucx. Of course every company has a little different seniority

policy, Senator, so it is difficult to give you an answer across the

board on that.

Senator FANNIN. I understand that, but you do feel that the first

consideration should be given to the quality of the product that is

being made, that you do not want to see any company produce a

product that would be hazardous to the general public or be hazardous

to the people who would be utilizing that particular product.

Miss Kucx. No, I would not; that is correct.

Senator FANNIN. Do you think that it is proper as a principle to

permit the EEOC to require companies to change wages and conditions of employment covered by union contracts?

Miss Kucx. As a principle, no, I think not, but if discrimination

is present, it may necessitate some change.

Senator FANNIN. Fine. What role do you think the local minority

social welfare groups play as hiring halls?

Senator WILLIAMS. Will you speak a little louder.

Senator FANNIN. The question is, What role do you think the local

minority social welfare groups play as hiring halls?
6

Miss KUCK. I think they have a role to play in connection with

that, Senator, in making referrals.

Senator FANNIN. In other words, you think just from the standpoint of being helpful and finding people that are in need and then

referring them?

Miss KUCK. Yes, definitely.

Senator FANNIN. Would affiliation with these minority groups

become necessary for unemployed or underemployed minority indivisuals seeking better employment?

Miss Kucx. Not necessarily.

Senator FANNIN. Would the lack of such affiliation work to the

detriment or discrimination of these individuals?

Miss KUCK. I think not.

Senator FANNIN. I imagine you have heard a lot about the words

"affirmative action."

Miss KUCK. Yes, I have.

Senator FANNIN. Could you tell me your understanding of what is

meant by "affirmative action"?

Miss KUCK. Personally, I believe that affirmative action means

taking the initiative and seeing that we do follow equal employment

opportunity to the letter.

Senator FANNIN. Don't you think that it is very difficult to determine what affirmative action is? In one plant it might be going a lot

further than in another plant.

Do you think you could set guidelines that would make a determination of affirmative action?

Miss KUCK. I think you can, Senator. It may require a little study

and time but I do feel you can.

Senator FANNIN. Well, so far I haven't seen any statement that

would convince me that can be done. I do not think that a request for

affirmative action is proper when the EEOC is not in a position to

give you an exact definition of what it would mean.

Don't you think that we should have a statement that is concise

but complete as to what is intended in requiring someone to show

affirmative action?

Miss KUCK. I think the kind of affirmative action that we need

would vary actually from location to location, Senator.

Senator FANNIN. I agree, but then when a person is making a

decision he needs guidelines and of course I think it is certainly an

arbitrary decision and in certain cases it could work a great hardship

just because it is not thoroughly understood.

When you go into an industry with which you have never been

affiliated and try to make a decision on this matter wouldn't it be

very difficult?

Miss KUCK. It might be, but there are a number of things that

you could look for that would be quite revealing.

Senator FANNIN. Yes, I realize that, but then, too, this could cost

millions of dollars and there have been instances where these requests

have been made that the company take affirmative action and the

EOC may request that they take certain affirmative action while the

Office of Compliance may decide, this wasn't affirmative action.

I believe in all instances to being fair and equitable both with the

worker and also the company involved. I don't think we are trying

to work a hardship on the company just arbitrarily.
7 1

Miss KucK. Of course when we talk about costing millions of

dollars, Senator, we have to remember that it costs millions of dollars

too, not to have people employed. I am sure you would agree with

that.

Senator FANNIN. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly and our objective

is to be fair in our employment program but not to have reverse

discrimination. Don't you agree?

Miss KUCK. I agree; yes, sir.

Senator FANNIN-. Are you aware of the percentage of nonwhite in

the national population in comparison with the percentage of nonwhite that are unemployed?

Miss KUCK. Yes, I have seen figures on this.

Senator FANNIN. Are you familiar with section 703(j) of the Civil

Rights Act of 1964 in regard to preferential treatment?

Miss Kucx. Preferential treatment in connection with?

Senator FANNIN. Employment.

Miss Kucx. Employment of what group?

Senator FANNIN. Well, 703(j) of the Civil Rights Act I can just

refer you to. Are you familiar with it?

Miss KUCK. Yes, I have read it.

Senator FANNIN. I will just read the first part—

Nothing contained in this title shall be interpreted to require any employer,

employment agency, labor organization, or joint labor-management committee

subject to this title to grant preferential treatment to any individual or to any

group because of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

Miss KUCK. Yes, I am familiar with that. I wasn't sure that that

was the part to which you were referring.

Senator FANNIN. Yes. Of course on this you might have the quota

system involved. Do you think that the quota system has any place

in the Equal Employment Opportunity Act?

Miss KUCK. Well, personally I don't favor the quota system as such.

Senator FANNIN. Well, I agree with you it can work some hardships on the employees generally speaking and I think that we all

agree that sometimes we create animosities that work against the

best interests of the worker just because we do have some of these

programs that are not really worked out on an equitable basis.

Where you are trying to help someone in many instances you are

hurting others and perhaps the one you are trying to help is the one

that suffers from it because of the animosity created.

Well, thank you very much, Miss Kuck. I appreciate your very

frank answers and I understand your qualifications. I just wish you

well.

Miss KUCK. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions? Senator Williams?

Senator WILLIAMS. You have been associated with International

Harvester for how many years?

Miss KUCK. Going on 27, Senator.

Senator WILLIAMS. On the management side in personnel?

Miss Kucx. No, not through all of that time. I started in the

factory.

Senator WILLIAMS. You got demoted from there.

Miss KUCK. Yes.

Senator WILLIAMS. I just have one little inquiry here. There is a

lot of feeling that unions in a sense discriminate against minority

groups. What union is the basic union at International Harvester?
S

Miss KUCK. UAW.

Senator WILLIAMS. I have never heard any discussion that they

discriminated. Am I right?

Miss KUCK. No; you are right.

Senator WILLIAMS. So there has been an equal opportunity for

people with the ability to do the job to work at International Harvester; is that right?

Miss Kuoic. Yes, sir.

Senator WILLIAMS. And you have been part of the process of

supervising personnel selection of people of ability without regard to

what they look like?

Miss Kucic. Yes.

Senator WILLIAMS. That is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Pell?

Senator PELL. Two questions. One, do you believe that there are

definite elements of de facto discrimination in some of the labor unions?

Miss KUCK. Yes.I do.

Senator PELL. Will you, in your new job, bore into this problem

and try to do what you can to eliminate it?

Miss KUCK. I would like to very much.

Senator PELL. I would encourage you to and hope you would.

Another area, in connection with the equal rights amendment. Your

mandate is not only race and age but also includes discrimination due to

sex. Do you think the equal rights amendments should be passed? In my

mind there are elements of a vast amount of good in it. It will ultimately be helpful to professional women. I can see where it would

hurt the working women.

Miss KucK. I haven't studied that sufficiently really to comment

on it, Senator.

Senator PELL. Well, as you know, it is an amendment that on its

surface says there will be no discrimination due to sex. As you may

know, it is being cosponsored I think by more than two-thirds of the

Senate. Somehow it never seems to reach the Senate floor. I think it

would be very helpful to get the con side as well as the pro side.

I was wondering if you could resurrect in your mind your previous

reactions to it and inform us what you think about it. Would it refresh

your mind if I gave you the amendment?

Miss KUCK. No; I am not sure that I have made up my mind.

This is the problem. I know that there is discrimination in regard to

sex and whether this would correct it I don't know.

Senator PELL. Thank you very much. That is all.

Miss KucK. I am sorry. I don't mean to duck it.

Senator PELL. No, no.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Chairman, I have just one.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Yarborough.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Miss Kuck, we have a resolution coming

up shortly after the questioning of you, Senate Resolution 222, to

provide the Migratory Labor Subcommittee, chaired by the distinguished Senator Williams of New Jersey, with money to continue

their-investigation of the status of migratory farm labor.

With the present rate of invention and perfection of new m-achines

by International Harvester Co. and their competitors, that harvest
9

tomatoes, cabbage, carrots, and other crops, how long do you think

it will be before migratory farm labor is gone?

Miss Kucx. I don't know, but, if you will recall, Senator, we were

instrumental in the development of the cottonpicker.

Senator YARBOROUGH. The cottonpicker is gone.

Miss Kucic. I can recall at that time our deep concern about what

might happen in the world.

Senator WILLIAMS. Will the gentleman yield?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Senator Williams Subcommittee on Migratory Labor is faced with grave dangers of disappearing in America.

I yield to Senator Williams. That is my last question.

Senator WILLIAMS. Couldn't the men harvesters of cotton be

traine4 to build the mechanical cottonpickers?

Senator YARBOI1OUGH. I will yield to the expert.

Miss KucK. This is exactly what we have tried to do.

Senator WILLIAMS. We started the Migratory Labor Subcommittee

and as I said to Senator Allen Ellender, we want to work ourselves

out of this.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Prouty, any questions?

Senator PROUTY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Miss Kuck, I have

had an opportunity to listen to your answers and read the résumé

of your vast experience. I think you are highly qualified and I wish

you well. I have just one question.

Shortly this committee will consider giving enforcement powers to

the Equal Opportunity Employment Commission. I favor that.

I wonder if you feel, if the Commission obtains such authority, that

it should think of itself as a quasi-judicial body rather than adopting

a certain type of militancy in favor or against one group or another?

Miss Kucx. Well, first, it is difficult for me to speak for the Commission. I am not a part of it as yet.

Senator PRO UTY. I just want your own personal view.

Miss Kucx. My own personal reaction would be to favor a quasijudicial body.

Senator PROUTY. Thank you very much.

- Senator FANNIN. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask one question in that regard.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead, Senator.

Senator FANNIN. You are familiar with the National Labor Relations Board and the way the counsel is handled? He is not directly

under the NLRB. In other words, he is separately appointed.

Don't you think it would be proper, rather than to have the Equal

Employment Opportunity Commission be judge and jury, that it

should be a similar arrangement so you would not be charged with the

responsibility of making a claim against the company and also making

a decision as to whether they are guilty?

Miss Kum I think this would have merit, yes.

Senator FANNIN. You would favor separate counsel similar to the

General Counsel that is prevalent in the NLRB?

Miss KucK. I haven't studied this aspect of it, Senator, but I am

inclined to think that I would favor that.

Senator FANNIN. Thank you. It sounds logical. I certainly thank

you and I hope that you do make a study of it because I think it is

very important.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?
10

• Senator FANNIN. No. I just want to commend the lady.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?

Without objection I will put this brief memorandum and sketch of

Miss Kuck in the record following my questions.

Anything you would like to add, Miss Kuck?

Miss Kucx. I think not.

Senator WILLIAMS. I have one further question.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Williams.

Senator WILLIAMS. Did you put this biography in the record, Mr.

Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I did put it in the record.

Senator WILLIAMS. Miss Kuck, you are an Independent; aren't you?

Miss Kucx. Yes. I was a registered Republican for many/years.

Senator WILLIAMS. I bet Senator Dirksen wouldlike to be here to

support you.

Senator FANNIN. He already has.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Williams, I may say her nomination has

been approved by both Senator Dirksen and Senator Percy.

Senator WILLIAMS. Very bipartisan.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions, gentlemen?

If not, we want to thank you very much.

Miss Kum Thank you again.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you for your presence very much. You had

to come all the way from Chicago; didn't you?

Miss Kucx. Yes; I did.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

The committee will now go into further executive session.

(Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the committee proceeded to other

business.)

0