U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

49–411 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022

S. HRG. 114–864

WORK IN RETIREMENT: CAREER

REINVENTIONS AND THE NEW

RETIREMENT WORKSCAPE

HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

UNITED STATES SENATE

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

WASHINGTON, DC

JUNE 24, 2015

Serial No. 114–08

Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Aging

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Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
(II) 

SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah

MARK KIRK, Illinois

JEFF FLAKE, Arizona

TIM SCOTT, South Carolina

BOB CORKER, Tennessee

DEAN HELLER, Nevada

TOM COTTON, Arkansas

DAVID PERDUE, Georgia

THOM TILLIS, North Carolina

BEN SASSE, Nebraska

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, Missouri

BILL NELSON, Florida

ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania

SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island

KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York

RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut

JOE DONNELLY, Indiana

ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts

TIM KAINE, Virginia

PRISCILLA HANLEY, Majority Staff Director

DERRON PARKS, Minority Staff Director
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C O N T E N T S 

Page 

Opening Statement of Senator Susan M. Collins, Chairman .............................. 1 

Opening Statement of Senator Claire McCaskill, Ranking Member ................... 2 

PANEL OF WITNESSES

Sara E. Rix, Ph.D., Working and Aging Consultant, Washington, D.C. ............. 4 

Susan E. Nordman, Owner, Erda, Dexter, Maine ................................................ 6 

Kerry Hannon, Contributing Editor, Forbes, Washington, D.C. ......................... 8 

James C. Godwin, Jr., Vice President of Human Resources, Bon Secours

Virginia Health System, Richmond, Virginia .................................................... 9 

APPENDIX 

PREPARED WITNESS STATEMENTS

Sara E. Rix, Ph.D., Working and Aging Consultant, Washington, D.C. ............. 27 

Susan E. Nordman, Owner, Erda, Dexter, Maine ................................................ 38 

Kerry Hannon, Contributing Editor, Forbes, Washington, D.C. ......................... 44 

James C. Godwin, Jr., Vice President of Human Resources, Bon Secours

Virginia Health System, Richmond, Virginia .................................................... 60 

(1) 

WORK IN RETIREMENT: CAREER

REINVENTIONS AND THE NEW

RETIREMENT WORKSCAPE

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 24, 2015

U.S. SENATE,

SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING, 

Washington, DC.

The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:02 p.m., Room 562,

Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Susan M. Collins, Chairman

of the Committee, presiding.

Present: Senators Collins, Cotton, Sasse, McCaskill, Casey, Donnelly, Warren, and Kaine.

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR

SUSAN M. COLLINS, CHAIRMAN

The CHAIRMAN. This hearing will come to order.

Good afternoon. In the iconic 1985 film ‘‘Back to the Future,’’

Marty and Doc ride in a time machine 30 years back in time. They

end up in 1955, the middle of the Baby Boom, where they save the

past and then blast off again to an impossibly distant future, the

year 2015. That film comes to mind as I think about the changes

we are seeing in how seniors approach work in retirement, the

topic of today’s hearing.

In many ways, the Baby Boom generation is leading us back to

the future where seniors stay actively engaged in the workforce,

contributing their years of wisdom and experience to employers

and colleagues while shoring up their own financial security.

For most of the past century, seniors have been withdrawing

from the workforce as Americans came to view retirement as a

time of uninterrupted rest and leisure that could last for decades.

By the year 2000, only 32 percent of Americans aged 55 and older

were still working, and the average age of retirement had dropped

to just 63, but the Baby Boom generation has reversed this trend.

Today 40 percent of workers 55 and older remain in the workforce,

a ratio not seen since the Eisenhower administration.

The Baby Boomers are remaining in the workforce longer for

many reasons, but one leading reason is the need for financial security. Many Americans today do not have the resources they need

to live comfortably in retirement without working.

It used to be said that retirement security was a three-legged

stool—the first leg being an employer-provided pension; the second,

Social Security; and the third, retirement savings, but with the estimated $7.7 trillion gap between what Americans ages 32 to 64
2 

have saved and what they will actually need for retirement, that

third leg has become wobbly, and a fourth leg—continued work—

has been added to the stool.

Experts tell us that the reengagement of seniors in the workforce

could not have come at a better time for our economy. According

to human resources professionals, 40 percent of U.S. employers are

struggling to fill jobs with qualified workers and could face a crisis

if they lose their older workers, but employers do not need these

workers just to fill positions. They also need their talent, their institutional knowledge, and especially their strong work ethic. Compared to younger employees, with all due respect to my staff, workers aged 55 and older are significantly more engaged in their work.

In fact, an engaged workforce is so important to the bottom line

that a Fortune 1000 company could improve its profits by $150 million a year if its entire workforce were as engaged as older workers, according to the AARP.

As we will hear from our witnesses today, financial needs are not

the only reason that Baby Boomers want to continue working. They

also want to stay active, mentally and physically. Working also

helps seniors stay socially connected and preserve a strong sense

of purpose and self-worth.

More than half in this generation who do retire return to the

workforce after just a few years. They use this break to catch their

breath and retool, sometimes for less stressful work, because these

retirees can rely on Social Security, Medicare, and other sources of

retirement income, they have the flexibility to pursue work on their

own terms.

Taking a break from the workforce is not without risk, however.

Seniors may find that their skills have become out of date and that

they have lost touch with key contacts and business trends. Some

of them face unspoken and misguided bias that is difficult to prove

but widely reported. Whatever the reason, it takes twice as long for

a senior to find a new job than it does for a younger person, and

the job hunt can be especially tough on workers laid off late in

their careers.

As this generation heads back to the workforce, employers who

want to attract and keep older workers should recognize that many

return to work because they want to, not just because they have

to. These workers are looking for flexible workplaces where they

can continue to contribute and where their skills will be valued.

Our witnesses today have a wealth of knowledge on how attitudes toward work and retirement are changing today and what it

means for employers and for older Americans. I very much look forward to their testimony today.

I am now very pleased to turn to our Ranking Member, Senator

McCaskill, for her statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, RANKING MEMBER

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you, Senator Collins. I want to thank

you for holding this hearing.

I am sad to say, from looking at the numbers, that it appears to

me that most of us on this Committee would be deemed ‘‘older
3 

workers.’’ The most recent AARP study defines an older worker as

over 50—except for Tom Cotton.

I can see him over there kind of——

The CHAIRMAN. He is too young.

Senator MCCASKILL. He is gloating, is what he is doing.

The most recent AARP study defines an older worker as over 50,

so I will reluctantly confess to meeting that threshold, easily, but

I think our own personal experiences can add a certain level of expertise to this conversation in terms of our capacity to grow and

change over time.

Many of us Baby Boomers are dealing with a much different

work landscape than the one we entered decades back. Yet we are

a competitive bunch, so I have trouble with this concept that we

cannot adapt to changing technologies to stay relevant in today’s

economy, and that AARP study, ‘‘A Business Case for Workers Age

50 and Above,’’ goes a long way to debunk this myth, along with

many others. More than nine in ten workers over 50 have a computer, tablet, or smartphone, and those numbers have been growing significantly in the last three years alone. Fewer than one in

five of the seniors surveyed felt they had trouble keeping up with

the technology needed to do their jobs, so do not tell me that you

cannot teach an ‘‘older’’ dog new tricks, and do not tell me that

older workers cost too much.

Due to the shifts in our pension systems away from defined benefits, adding a worker over 50 is not that much different to a company’s bottom line than adding younger workers, according to the

AARP. 

The fact of the matter is our workforce is getting older. In under

a decade, more than one in three workers will be older than 50. In

Missouri today, more than one in five workers is 55 and older. It

is true some older workers want to stay employed to feel productive

and challenged, but many other Americans, I hasten to say that I

believe the majority of other Americans, are doing so out of necessity.

This is a new era of retirement. Few people have that pension

check for life and instead must set aside their own money for their

golden years, and longer life spans mean we are talking about retirements that could last for decades, so it is no wonder why older

Americans are a bit nervous to stop working altogether.

The smart companies have already figured out the changing demographics and have developed ways to capitalize in the skills and

experience that this large group of workers can bring to the table.

One of those companies is represented here today, and I do not

know if I am going to pronounce this right: Bon Secours? Is that

right? 

The CHAIRMAN. Close.

Senator MCCASKILL. Bon Secours Virginia Health System has for

years recognized that it makes no sense to see its best and brightest workers walk out the door at age 55 when most nurses tend

to leave the hospital floor, so to combat this brain drain, they have

developed a phased retirement system that employs these young

workers in a variety of roles, such as quality review, teaching, and

analyzing care. They have also adjusted their benefits packages so

these older workers would not be penalized for reducing hours.
4 

Today the program is so successful that it works across demographics. This culture of flexible work schedules is good not just for

the older worker but for the reservist, the mother, or any other employee who cannot work a full 40-hour schedule, but still brings essential skills to the job.

SSM Health Care in St. Louis offers its own phased retirement

system, allowing employees over 62 to collect their pension while

working a more flexible schedule. Hundreds of its employees have

already taken advantage of this plan.

I should also point out that while working longer is a viable option for those seeking a way to build a more secure retirement, it

is not the answer for everyone. We should recognize that some people have spent years working jobs that are so physically demanding

that asking them to do any kind of work into their 70’s is just not

realistic. We will still need to work to develop strategies for this

group of workers, but that should not stop us from exploring more

ways to help older workers stay engaged and continue to earn an

income if they so choose.

With that in mind, I look forward to hearing the testimony from

today’s panel, and I thank all of you very much for being here.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for your testimony. I will

confess before this entire room that it was the Ranking Member

who convinced me that I had to get an iPhone. I did indeed.

We are also pleased to be joined by I believe the person who is

the youngest member of the Senate. Is that accurate, Senator Cotton?

Senator COTTON. It is, but I am old in spirit.

The CHAIRMAN. We are very pleased to have you here as well.

Now we will turn to our panel of witnesses. First we will hear

from Dr. Sara Rix. Dr. Rix recently retired from her position as a

senior strategic policy adviser for the AARP and is now a consultant specializing in working and aging issues.

We will then hear from Susan Nordman, who is the owner of

Erda, a specialty handbag company located in rural Dexter, Maine.

She will testify about her experience starting over in a new field

at an older age, as well as her experience in employing an older

workforce, and I particularly want to thank her for traveling down

from Maine to be with us today.

Third, we will hear from Kerry Hannon, an author, a New York

Times columnist, and a contributing editor for Forbes.

Finally, we will hear from James Godwin, the vice president of

human resources at Bon Secours Virginia Health System in Richmond, Virginia.

Thank you all for being with us today. We look forward to hearing from you, and we will start with Dr. Rix.

STATEMENT OF SARA E. RIX, PH.D., WORKING AND AGING

CONSULTANT, WASHINGTON, D.C.

Dr. RIX. Thank you, Chairman Collins and Ranking Member

McCaskill, for inviting me to testify today about the challenges and

opportunities involved in prolonging working life. Prolonged employment stands to benefit employers facing labor and skills shortages, and the economy, but it can also greatly enhance the retirement security of workers and their families by increasing Social Se-
5 

curity benefits by as much as eight percent per year of delayed receipt, by giving workers more time to save and benefit from a

401(k) match, if offered, and by reducing the time, the number of

years spent in retirement and, thus, the supplemental income

needed for retirement years.

Older workers already are working longer, are remaining longer

in the workforce. One statistic readily highlights this point. Among

persons 65 to 69, those we have traditionally thought of as retirement age, the labor force participation rate has risen from about

18 percent in 1985 to nearly 32 percent in 2014, or by over 70 percent. We cannot credit any single policy or program for higher participation rates at older ages. The older population is extremely diverse and responds in different ways to different incentives and

disincentives. Rising educational attainment does seem to be a

major determinant, accounting for perhaps half of the increase in

participation among older men, according to one study.

Up to 80 percent of workers say they expect to work in retirement, and we have just heard some of the reasons. They need the

money, of course, but they also enjoy what they are doing. They

want to remain active; they hope to make a contribution. Yet far

fewer workers actually remain in the labor force than say they expect to because of job loss, ill health, and caregiving responsibilities. Others may be unable to find the opportunities that could

keep them at work: less demanding jobs, new career options, good

part-time jobs, and more flexible work schedules, for example.

When to retire is a decision over which workers have some control, not total control but more than they have over the stock market or housing values. Exercising that control by working longer is

what I think we have been seeing, including during the recent recession when labor force participation rates rose for older workers

but fell for younger ones.

Employers, however, have considerable say in what workers can

and will do. On the plus side, employers tend to be very positive

about older workers when it comes to attributes such as loyalty, dependability, customer relationships, and the like, but on the minus

side, many employers harbor negative attitudes about older worker

costs and technological competence. The new AARP survey just

mentioned may alleviate some of those concerns about cost and

performance. 

Moreover, if employers need workers, they will do what is necessary to obtain and retain an adequate supply, and that will include drawing upon what is available: older people ready and eager

to work.

Just what public policy initiatives would encourage even more

employment at older ages in a scalable, cost-efficient manner and

in a way that does not pit generations against one another is not

so obvious. In my written testimony, I offer several suggestions,

and there are many others in addition. If I could identify only one

this afternoon, it would be to promote older workers’ skills development to ensure that those workers have the qualifications they

need to find work, change jobs or careers, or reenter the labor force

after retirement. This means more money for the Nation’s workforce development system as well as monitoring older worker outcomes under the new Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act.
6 

In addition, it is also incumbent upon us to promote life-long

learning to make sure that tomorrow’s older workers do not face

the same employment barriers that today’s do. This will not be inexpensive, but before going further with other policy proposals, I

suggest that we might be well served by taking stock of what we

know and do not know about what actually fosters longer work

lives so that appropriate policies can be crafted to achieve our objectives. Hence, I shall conclude with an appeal for more funding

for the Department of Labor to address a range of questions about

how best to incentivize more older workers to work even longer and

more employers to hire and retain them.

Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for your excellent testimony.

Ms. Nordman.

STATEMENT OF SUSAN E. NORDMAN,

OWNER, ERDA, DEXTER, MAINE

Ms. NORDMAN. Chairman Collins, Ranking Member McCaskill,

distinguished members, thank you for inviting me to testify. My

name is Susan Nordman. I am the owner of Erda, a small manufacturing company and the maker of Erda handbags. I grew up in

rural Maine in the late 1960’s in an agricultural community. Like

many of my peers, I left home for college and employment. I settled

in the New York City area and built a life with a family and several successful businesses. It had always been my intention to return home to the State of Maine. In 2006, my husband and I

packed up and headed north, planning to retire. We settled outside

of Portland and within driving distance to Boston.

In 2012, a business broker sent me a listing on a small company

in northern Maine. The company was intriguing, but the location

was not: too far north, too remote, too rural. The idea was dropped

until a year later when I saw a display of Erda handbags in a gallery. The bright colors and quirky shapes demanded further investigation.

The facility was in an old barn in the middle of a cornfield in the

middle of nowhere. As soon as I walked in, I was hooked. The smell

of the leather, bright rolls of fabric, and a group of women stitching

was mesmerizing, and there was opportunity. The company had

fallen into disrepair and was poorly managed. I knew I could fix

this. I bought the company in late 2013.

Along with the asset purchase, I inherited a group of older

women. If I moved the company too far, they would all be unemployed. Corliss is 64, Georgia is 69, and the rest of us saw our 60th

birthdays together. I felt an obligation to find a solution that did

not leave them behind.

We moved one town over to Dexter, Maine. Warren Buffett had

improved most of the infrastructure in the town for Dexter Shoes,

so we had reliable electricity and a road the UPS truck could drive

on. The equipment needed updating, and the new space gave me

the opportunity to design a more ergonomic workplace for my older

workers. 

Two questions are asked of me when the topic of older workers

comes up:
7 

Do older workers cost more? The answer is older workers cost

different. I had to take into consideration my older workers when

purchasing equipment. I have an older workforce. Many stitching

places, including New Balance and L.L. Bean, have machines that

require the workers to stand at the machine. An older worker has

difficulty with this style of equipment. The equipment I purchased

was more costly, but it led to a better product and improved production time.

The second question I get asked is: Is it harder to train an older

worker? Are they too set in their ways? This question is usually

asked by a younger person. The image of an old dog comes to mind,

and I have to laugh. When did we become old dogs? The answer

to the question is: No, it is not harder to teach an older person. I

have found that an older worker is quick to assimilate new ideas,

in part because they have a larger set of experiential building

blocks on which to pin a new concept. I suspect that an old dog who

does not like new tricks was once a young dog that had an aversion

to new tricks.

Staying mentally active was my primary reason for starting a

new career. I recognized the importance of this, and I have created

a workplace that is more studio than factory. Each bag is made one

at a time by one person. This gives each person a variety of duties

and creates ownership and pride in their work.

An older worker tends to be more balanced in their personal

lives. Work is important, but it does not dominate. Each employee

sets their own hours at Erda. It is a benefit that costs me very little and goes a long way to making a better workplace.

My employees are paid hourly, not by the piece. They get sick

days, holidays, and vacations. We break for Qi Gong sessions every

morning, and we have a massage therapist come in once a month.

Financial necessity dictates the need to work for most of my employees. They worry about the longevity of Social Security and

health care costs. We are a small company, but you can find our

handbags throughout the country in galleries, museum stores, and

some national parks. We are predominantly an older group with

two under thirty’s learning the trade. A workplace that includes

older workers is more balanced and more interesting. I do not know

what role, if any, Government should play in this issue. It is certainly worth discussing. For now, we will keep making our handbags and learning from one another, old to young and young to old.

Thank you for hearing my testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for your testimony. I understand that you have one of your handbags with you.

Ms. NORDMAN. I do, but it is not the pretty one. They made me

take pretty ones, but I——

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you are welcome to put it up there so

that—— 

Ms. NORDMAN. I elected to have my waxed canvas.

The CHAIRMAN. So that we could see it. We should have asked

you to bring a display.

Senator MCCASKILL. I am looking at their Web page. Speaking

of technology, I can put one in the cart right now.

The CHAIRMAN. Always a step ahead. That is impressive.

Ms. Hannon.
8 

STATEMENT OF KERRY HANNON,

CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, FORBES, WASHINGTON, D.C.

Ms. HANNON. Chairman Collins, Ranking Member McCaskill,

members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to testify before the Special Committee on Aging and for focusing your attention on the challenges Americans over 50 face in the workplace. I

have spent three decades covering all aspects of businesses, careers, and personal finance, and I am alarmed by the disconnect

between employers and older workers.

Work at an older age is becoming increasingly common. Yes,

some retirees have always taken part-time jobs out of financial

need or to shore up retirement accounts, to stave off boredom.

What is different now is that today’s Baby Boomers are either continuing to work much longer or approaching work not as an afterthought but as a pillar of their retirement plan. The numbers tell

the story.

In 1991, just 11 percent of workers expected to retire after age

65, according to the Employee Benefit Research Institute’s 2015

Retirement Confidence Survey. Today, more than three times that

number expect to retire after age 65, and 10 percent do not plan

to retire. Two-thirds of workers say they plan to work for pay in

retirement. 

Here is the hitch: Many workers say they are going to work in

retirement, but a very small percentage do, but working for pay a

few years longer can make a huge difference in financial security

as we age. I suspect one of the reasons why people are not continuing to work is they cannot find a job, and give up.

As I travel around the country speaking to audiences of people

over 50 who are looking for jobs, I see a palpable fear in their eyes

that they are going to outlive their money. Simply put, they need

to work, but when it comes to getting a job, it is a struggle. I am

not going to sugar-coat it. Here is what I find and I advise. An employer is concerned that an older worker is not up for the job, that

they do not have the stamina and the energy. A lot of people come

up to me and say, you know, ‘‘Do I need to get Botox? Should I dye

my hair to look younger?’’ I say, ‘‘No. You need a fitness program.

You need to be physically fit, and it is one of the best things you

can do.’’ You give off a certain energy, and a can-do spirit, it goes

a long way to fighting ageism.

The second thing employers worry about is that you are not up

to speed with technology, and you know what? They might be right.

In today’s work world, that is nonnegotiable. I encourage workers

to take courses at a community college or local library to ramp it

up. Learning is imperative if you want to stay relevant in the

workplace. 

The third thing they are going to worry about is that you are not

going to play nicely with the other kids, and by that I mean younger workers, or be comfortable with a younger boss. That is quite

possible. It is about fitting into the culture. You need to go out of

your way to show that you have had great multigenerational work

relationships. 

Employers are also going to worry that you are overqualified for

the job you are applying for or are not going to be happy with the

salary that they can offer you and you will resent it in time. It is
9 

a stark reality. Many older workers I know who do find work go

back to work at lower salaries than they had with their last employer.

Sometimes older workers opt to start their own businesses or

switch careers, but money is the biggest stumbling block when you

go that route. You will probably have to start off at a lower salary,

and if you are starting your own business, you will have the cost

of startup and probably will not be able to pay yourself a salary

for a while, so you really need to be financially fit before you start

down that path. Debt is a dream killer.

I always remind workers to not give up, to think of ways that

they can redeploy their skills to other fields and to not get stuck

trying to replicate their old jobs. There are opportunities in the

nonprofit arena, health care, with small business, with startups,

with small associations, where your expertise is valued, and if you

are out of work right now, do something. Keep your resume alive

by volunteering for a cause you care about. You never know who

you might meet who can point you to another opportunity, or your

work could even turn into a full-time job. Be willing to take on a

contract or a consulting job because it can fill those employment

gaps on your resume.

Finally, money aside, working gives us something to get up in

the morning for. Work gives us a sense of purpose, feeling connected, and needed. Work makes us feel relevant. In fact, studies

show it keeps us healthier and it keeps our minds sharper.

I could go on, but my time is up. Again, I want to thank the

Committee for inviting me to be here today.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you so much for your testimony.

Mr. Godwin.

STATEMENT OF JAMES C. GODWIN, JR., VICE

PRESIDENT OF HUMAN RESOURCES, BON SECOURS

VIRGINIA HEALTH SYSTEM, RICHMOND, VIRGINIA

Mr. GODWIN. Good afternoon, Chairman Collins, Ranking Member McCaskill, and distinguished members of the Special Committee on Aging. On behalf of the more than 13,000 employees of

Bon Secours Virginia Health System, I thank you for this opportunity to share insights on how we attract and retain older workers

as part of our health care ministry.

My name is Jim Godwin, and I am the vice president of human

resources for Bon Secours Virginia. Today, I will share: an overview of our workforce; why we value the experience, knowledge and

expertise of older workers; and how they contribute to our success

and culture.

As a Roman Catholic, nonprofit health care system, Bon Secours

Virginia is part of the Maryland-based Bon Secours Health System,

with some 22,000 employees in six States.

Bon Secours Virginia has 8,400 employees in Richmond and

5,000 employees in Hampton Roads, Virginia. With five hospitals

in the Richmond area, three in Hampton Roads, dozens of ambulatory care sites and support centers, along with a college of nursing

and a school of medical imaging, we take our mission of ‘‘providing

good help to those in need’’ to heart.
10 

The Sisters of Bon Secours, who started our ministry in 1824 in

Paris, remain a guiding force for our shared values, mission, and

vision. Nearly all of the Sisters are 60 years old or older, and many

continue serving as leaders well into their 80’s and 90’s, providing

strategic direction and guidance. For us, workers of this age are

common, and we celebrate their vision, wisdom, and contributions.

In our Virginia health system, 35 percent of our employees are

50 or older; 11 percent are in their 60’s. We have 126 employees

in their 70’s and a remarkable 12 in their 80’s. Some 82 percent

of our workforce is female, and more than one-third are nurses.

We value each employee and his or her unique qualities and life

experiences. We believe our older workers’ wisdom and institutional knowledge are invaluable.

Let me tell you about some of our long-time employees. I will

start with Nettie Coleman, who works for me in Employee

Wellness. She turns 81 this year. She has worked for us for an

amazing 58 years so far, starting in 1957. She tried retirement for

a few months, but her respect and passion for her work drew her

back. After nearly six decades, Nettie still works part time in new

hire pre-placement, conducting physicals, drawing blood, and helping to induct new employees to our workplace.

Our oldest employee is Virginia Abbott. Virginia is 89 and celebrates 29 years of service with us this year. Outside of her incredible work stamina, what is so amazing about Virginia is that she

did not even come to work for us until she was 60 years old, and

yet she has been with us almost 30 years. Currently, we have five

employees with 49 years of service. Clearly, work is the new foundation of youth for these distinguished employees.

We also have many employees launching ‘‘Encore Careers.’’ A

former high school administrator and a professional firefighter both

recently graduated from the Bon Secours Memorial College of

Nursing with bachelor’s degrees in nursing. Both of these men are

over 50 years old and are enjoying second careers in our health system. Another recent graduate was 62 years old.

Bon Secours is committed to our culture that attracts, retains,

and values workers that are over 50 years old. In fact, AARP has

ranked us a ‘‘Best Employer for Workers over 50’’ since 2003.

We have been on Working Mother magazine’s top 100 places for

working mothers for 16 years and in the top 10 twice. Gallup has

named Bon Secours Health System to its prestigious international

listing of Great Workplaces annually since 2011.

These accolades benefit Bon Secours Virginia as an organization

because we are able to attract and retain a highly engaged and productive workforce—of all ages and life stages. This directly benefits

our patients, who have better care experiences and rate us higher

on patient satisfaction surveys.

Let me share with you how experienced nurses benefit patient

care. 

The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation reports that RNs are, on

average, spending more time in the workforce—about two and half

more years than their peers did back in the 1980’s and 1990’s. That

is a good thing for Bon Secours. We need them.

As nurses age, they report higher levels of career and job satisfaction. Some 80 to 85 percent of nurses report being satisfied with
11 

their careers—much higher than other professions. That means

that as more Baby Boomer nurses age, they are more likely to be

satisfied and more likely to keep working. That kind of experience

and knowledge is invaluable when it comes to patient care and patient safety.

However, working in a hospital setting can be hard on nurses

due to the physical challenges. Our patients are much heavier than

they were in the past, and heavier patients means more workers

are prone to injury. That is why we have implemented mobility-lift

teams to help older workers with the regular turning of bed-bound

patients. We have seen a drop in injuries and a reduction in muscle

fatigue among older nurses as a result.

Our workforce is changing, and we are working hard to address

those changes. America continues to face a nursing shortage. Finding the right nurses for the right jobs at the right time remains difficult. We are going to need to keep our health care employees satisfied with their careers because the demand for health care is

growing. 

At the same time, people are living longer and healthier lives,

and the majority of U.S. workers are delaying their retirement.

By offering initiatives such as phased retirement, flexible work

schedules, and intergenerational programming, Bon Secours has

been successful in retaining its valuable older workers. Today we

have about 100 Virginia employees who receive both a retirement

check and a paycheck from us.

Our comprehensive benefits are attractive and flexible; our onsite

family centers are a good example where we allow employees to

have their grandchildren in our daycare centers as well as their

parents. We also have elder care programs that benefit older workers who are in the sandwich generation where they are having to

provide care for their parents as well as often for their children or

their children who have returned home after graduating from college.

In closing, I remind you to remember employees at Bon Secours

Virginia—like our 89-year-old Virginia Abbott, who is a wonderful

lady, people who keep working beyond their typical retirement

age—allow us to keep our mission viable and alive, and thank you

for the opportunity to share our story today.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Godwin.

Ms. Nordman, you mentioned in your testimony that you had run

a number of other businesses before you returned home to Maine.

I am assuming that those businesses probably had a younger workforce than the workforce that you now employ. Is that true or not

necessarily? 

Ms. NORDMAN. That is true, but I have never hired on the basis

of age or anything. I always try and get employees who are going

to fit into the team. At one point I had 37 employees in one company, and we really did run the gamut of, you know, 20-somethings

all the way up to 55, was probably the oldest at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. With older employees, do you find that there is

less turnover?

Ms. NORDMAN. Less turnover, less texting, less boyfriend drama.

Yes. 

The CHAIRMAN. All advantages of hiring an older worker.
12 

Ms. NORDMAN. Yes, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. No doubt about it, and if you have less turnover,

then you are spending less on retraining?

Ms. NORDMAN. I am spending less on retraining. I am spending

less on integrating—when you bring a new person into a tight-knit

group, it takes a lot of wiggling for that person to finally settle in

and become part of the group, so the better I can retain a worker,

the better it is for the company, which is why it takes me so long

to hire. The process for me is at least three weeks, because I want

the right person.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Dr. Rix, skill development programs, and both you and Ms.

Hannon have mentioned the importance of skill development, but

Federal skill development programs are often aimed at young

workers. We have some excellent apprenticeship programs, for example, that are aimed at people who are just coming out of community colleges or technical schools. We have other programs that

tend to be aimed at people who are younger, and yet it may well

be that an older worker, particularly one who has been out of the

workforce for a while and has difficulty, as Ms. Hannon pointed

out, in coming back into the workforce, may need a refresher on

their skills or entirely new skills.

I see this in Maine where we have had paper mills close down,

and people have worked for decades making very good paper, and

they are excellent paper makers, but that is what they have done

their whole life, and they are frequently in their 50’s, and all of a

sudden they are faced with having to switch careers.

I would be interested in any comments that each of you might

have on current Federal programs or other programs that you may

be aware of and whether they do a good job of helping older workers. One that I know of in the Department of Labor is called the

‘‘Senior Community Service Employment Program,’’ and it is aimed

at lower-income individuals aged 55 or older, but it has been pretty

criticized for a number of reasons, but do either of you have any

suggestions for us as we look at Federal job training programs? I

will start with Dr. Rix and then go to Ms. Hannon.

Dr. RIX. Well, you have hit on one of the——

The CHAIRMAN. I am going to ask you to turn on your mic.

Thank you.

Dr. RIX. You have mentioned one of the major federally funded

employment training programs for older workers. You are quite

correct that we have not invested the Federal resources in older

workers. It did appear they were singled out in the Job Training

Partnership Act; for example, there was a special set-aside for older

workers that did not make it into the Workforce Investment Act,

and they have been singled out once again as a group with special

barriers to employment in the Workforce Innovation Opportunity

Act. 

I think what we need to do is some—what I would recommend

is more older worker specialists in the American Job Centers that

can help older workers be directed to programs in the community

that may provide them with the appropriate skills. I am not suggesting that the Federal Government set up special programs along

the lines of the Senior Community Service Employment Program
13 

but, rather, make the financial resources available to workers

through the Job Centers or through other mechanisms along with

the guidance that workers need about where the jobs are going to

be and what type of training they need to obtain in order to get

those jobs.

A big problem that workers have faced in the job training environment is that they often engage in training, often using their

own hard-earned resources, only to find that those training opportunities lead nowhere as far as jobs are concerned.

We have to start at a very basic level and understanding what

the labor market opportunities are in a particular area, namely,

what the jobs are, where they are going to be, working closely with

employers, job training providers, and Government entities with

the resources to help older workers and, indeed, workers of all ages

know what they need to do to get what they want, to find good,

secure employment providing decent jobs and benefits.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Ms. Hannon.

Ms. HANNON. I agree with Dr. Rix’s points there. I think a really

important thing is helping older workers identify the skills they

have. They may have been at that plant for all those years, and

they do not even see what they are good at anymore. They do not

recognize what it is.

The one-stop career centers often have coaching available there,

and if there is a way to—a lot of individuals I have talked to find

that working with a coach actually helps them identify skills that

they have and how they can redeploy those. It gives them confidence and sort of lifts them out of the depression that they often

fall into. I think it is a very important resource if we could expand

that to a certain degree in those centers.

I think employers, if someone is currently involved, the tax incentive to offer educational assistance for employees is often a nice

thing, if employees—not all employers offer that. I think only 60

percent do, or something, it is so small, it is not a huge number,

but I do believe that if employees have access to even, you know,

education that they can pay for with dollars that are not taxed, it

would be fantastic to encourage that, because you have to continue

motivating that learning cycle in order to move into these jobs, and

as we discussed here, these certificate programs are terrific, but

some of them lead nowhere, so you really need to be cautious about

people taking that path to a quick hit to learn a new skill.

I find that it is important to identify, you know, where these opportunities are going to be, and the Department of Labor has the

Occupation Handbook, which I like a lot. I think there is great—

they identify fastest-growing industries, things that are coming up

down the road, and they spell out: What certifications do you need

to do this job? What is the median salary? It gives workers some

starting point. It is a great research.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Senator McCaskill.

Senator MCCASKILL. Thank you.

Let me ask first, Mr. Godwin, was your, I would call it, ‘‘culture

of flexibility’’ born out of necessity due to the nursing shortage? Or
14 

did it happen organically because of the recognition of the organization of the skills that were walking out the door?

Mr. GODWIN. Well, the shortages of health care workers in general, not just nurses, have caused health care employers across the

Nation to have to be more flexible. Being a 24/7 operation, it is in

some ways easier for us to be flexible, of course, because we have

such a wide variety of types of jobs as well as schedules and so

forth, so in health care, we have historically had mostly female

workers, and because of how things were in the 1950’s and so forth,

you know, we had to be in a position to work around school schedules and working moms and so forth.

That flexibility transcends all aspects of our workforce. Being

flexible helps older workers. It also helps working mothers. It also

helps reservists and National Guardsmen and all sorts of other employees.

Senator MCCASKILL. Right.

Mr. GODWIN. It is organic in that sense.

Senator MCCASKILL. Well, it just seems that the flexibility of

work schedules is something that has, I think, become much more

prevalent in the last decade, but still, I think there are a lot of segments of our economy out there that have not recognized the validity of flexibility, whether it is age of workers or whether it is hours

at work.

I noticed, Ms. Nordman, that you have flexibility for your workers in terms of their schedules. How many employees do you have

right now?

Ms. NORDMAN. We have ten employees, and we are looking to

hire two more.

Senator MCCASKILL. You know, for older workers, one of the

things that I think is a big topic that really has not been discussed

extensively yet is the—what is the challenges of health care for

older workers, especially those between 50 and 65, because that is

before they are eligible for Medicare, and in many small businesses, there is not health care provided. I assume you do not provide health care at your business.

Ms. NORDMAN. We do not provide health care, and Annie, two of

her paychecks go to pay for their health care, and Corliss, probably

two of her paychecks each week go to pay for their health care.

Senator MCCASKILL. I am aware that your—you mentioned in

your written testimony that their pay was about $25,000 a year,

$12 an hour.

Ms. NORDMAN. Yes, and I am a high payer for my area.

Senator MCCASKILL. You are a high payer for your area, and I

believe that your State is similar to my State in that they have not

expanded Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act.

Ms. NORDMAN. No, I do not believe they have.

Senator MCCASKILL. Your workers cannot qualify for subsidies.

The irony is that they are too poor to qualify for subsidies.

Ms. NORDMAN. Yes.

Senator MCCASKILL. If they made a little bit more, their health

insurance would go dramatically down.

Ms. NORDMAN. Right.

Senator MCCASKILL. Because they would be entitled to subsidies

under the act.
15 

Ms. NORDMAN. Right.

Senator MCCASKILL. Your State, like Missouri, has refused the

Federal dollars that were identified that could make a big difference in terms——

Ms. NORDMAN. It would make a big difference.

Senator MCCASKILL. For these older workers—who are working

hard. 

Ms. NORDMAN. Really hard.

Senator MCCASKILL. It is not as if they are sitting at home. They

are not a—I think the typical vision that people have of a Medicaid

recipient, these are people who are working and providing great

value to your company.

Ms. NORDMAN. Yes, they are.

Senator MCCASKILL. What about pre-existing conditions? I noticed also in your testimony that two of your workers had had cancer.

Ms. NORDMAN. Two of my workers have had cancer, and it is an

issue for them.

Senator MCCASKILL. If we did not have the ability to not discriminate against pre-existing conditions, that would be even more

difficult for them in terms of their ability to get insurance.

Ms. NORDMAN. It would be very difficult for them.

Senator MCCASKILL. Ms. Hannon or Dr. Rix, I am assuming that

the ability to change jobs and retrain at an older age has been dictated up until very recently many times by the fact that you did

not want to leave your job if you had health care because if you

had the nerve to be sick before, you could not go get insurance

somewhere else because, in fact, you had a pre-existing condition,

so I am assuming that there is more portability now for older workers that want to follow a dream or want to start a business or what

to do something differently.

Dr. RIX. I suspect that is the case. However, access to health care

still involves money. You have to pay for it. It is not free.

Senator MCCASKILL. Right.

Dr. RIX. The continuing high costs of health care may be still

preventing some people from following, pursuing that dream.

Senator MCCASKILL. Right, because they have the benefit in a

job, and they would have to be paying for it themselves if they

started their business——

Dr. RIX. Yes.

Senator MCCASKILL [continuing]. or perhaps went to work somewhere that was a much smaller company that was not required to

provide any benefit at all.

Dr. RIX. Yes, especially if they were not paid very much in

that—— 

Senator MCCASKILL. Right.

Ms. HANNON. I think that is true, very much true. I think it has

the illusion of creating portability for people, which in reality might

not be as much as we would hope to be. I work for myself, and I

know that it has become more expensive for me with the new situation.

Senator MCCASKILL. You are a single business, an LLC?

Ms. HANNON. Yes.

Senator MCCASKILL. Okay. Thank you very much.
16 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Warren.

Senator WARREN. Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to ask about another aspect of seniors working. One of the

biggest economic challenges facing older workers is the increased

risk of becoming disabled and unable to work, particularly because

the likelihood of disability increases sharply with age, so from age

40 to 50, a worker’s chance of becoming disabled doubles, and from

age 50 to 60 it doubles once again. Social Security Disability Insurance is the only way that millions of these workers stay out of poverty when they get hurt.

Now, people sometimes think of the disability program as separate from retirement age Social Security, but both programs are

about helping seniors. Fully 70 percent of Social Security Disability

Insurance beneficiaries are in their 50’s and their 60’s.

Dr. Rix, as a former senior policy adviser for the AARP, you are

an expert on the economic hardships facing older workers. Can you

explain how the Social Security disability system works?

Dr. RIX. Well, it works very much like the Social Security retired

workers program. It is an income or earnings protection program

that protects workers from loss of earning in the face of severe disability, and that is disability that is estimated to last at least a

year or result in death. It is not a program for malingerers. The

criteria for eligibility for SSDI are very strict, and many individuals who apply for disability benefits never receive them.

Senator WARREN. Okay. Just like regular Social Security, disability insurance is something people earn from working, while

they are working. Is that right?

Dr. RIX. Yes, from a portion of their taxes. Yes.

Senator WARREN. Okay, just to make sure I have got it.

Dr. RIX. Yes.

Senator WARREN. Why is the program so important to the financial security of older workers?

Dr. RIX. The disability program?

Senator WARREN. Yes.

Dr. RIX. I think for the very reasons that you expressed, older

workers—and I do want to emphasize that disability can occur at

any age, and most older workers are not disabled, but as you mentioned, they are more likely to become disabled with age, and that

modest benefit that they receive from the SSDI program is often

all or a very significant portion of the income the household receives, and that is because they are generally unable to work or are

very, very limited in what they can do, so their earnings are very

low as well.

Senator WARREN. I understand that the modest benefits—they

are about $1,165 a month, and they keep about 6.6 million disabled

Americans from falling into poverty. Does that sound about right,

Dr. Rix?

Dr. RIX. It does.

Senator WARREN. Sometimes the retirement fund runs low, and

sometimes the disability fund runs low. We have got these two

funds in Social Security. Usually this is not a big deal. The Government regularly transfers money back and forth between the two

Social Security programs, retirement and disability. We have done

it 11 times before in both directions that it has moved, but next
17 

year is different. The disability fund this time will need a transfer,

but the very first thing the House Republicans did when they came

back in January, literally on the first day of the new Congress, was

to pass a new rule to prevent a routine transfer to the disability

fund. 

Now, let us be clear. This is an invented Social Security crisis,

taking the disability system hostage in a war to dismantle Social

Security inch by inch. If they get their way, the House Republicans

will force disabled Americans, most of them seniors, to face a 20-

percent cut in their Social Security checks next year.

Dr. Rix, the House Republicans argue that we need to gut the

Social Security disability program in order to save it. Do you disagree?

Dr. RIX. I do disagree. I think that the Social Security disability

system needs reform, but it does not need gutting. It is too important to today’s disabled Americans, regardless of age, and I for one

would resist any attempt to gut the program if I were in a position

to do so.

Senator WARREN. Thank you very much. When we talk about

working seniors and what it means to be a working senior, I just

want to be clear about this one. This is a ploy that does not fool

anyone. It is an attack on seniors, and it is time to stop playing

games with the economic stability of millions of seniors who depend

on Social Security to live with dignity. Thank you, Dr. Rix.

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Casey, perhaps you can help us get back

on topic.

Senator CASEY. Thank you very much for the panel’s testimony.

I did not hear all of it, but I have looked at it, and I wanted to

highlight the fact that I do not know the exact average for the age

of U.S. Senators, but we are above 55, I think, so we are listening

carefully to recommendations for today. I think Senator Donnelly

is like 24. He brings it way down, but other than that, we are all

getting close to that age, if we are not there already.

I wanted to start with Mr. Godwin. I know that in your testimony you focused on, among other things, intergenerational services, and you have got obviously some expertise in this, but one

number that stood out for me, in addition to what—Dr. Rix in her

testimony talked about the participation rate or labor force participation rate of older workers going from about 18 percent in 1985,

increasing by 70 percent to a number like 32 percent in 2014, so

a huge increase in the labor force participation rate.

One thing I was not aware of until the hearing was that 2.7 million grandparents are responsible for their grandchildren and the

challenges that come with that in any event, but especially in the

event where that grandparent is both working and responsible for

their grandchildren. I know that is not the only burden they might

face, but in those circumstances where there is both the challenge

of getting a job after a certain age but then also having an additional burden, can you give us some advice or some suggestions as

to the best ways that companies can alleviate some of that burden?

Mr. GODWIN. Well, I think we find at Bon Secours that our benefits for young mothers apply equally well to those who are now

having to care for their grandchildren. We do see a growing num-
18 

ber of our older workers who are now raising their grandchildren,

sometimes with their child in the home with them who is for some

reason unable to care for the grandchild and sometimes without.

We have the advantage of having onsite child care at a number of

our facilities, and we put that in 20 or 25 years when it was for

working mothers, primarily, but now that plays very well for us

with employees able to put their grandchildren in those same centers.

When you couple that with the flexible work schedules we have,

it means that the grandparent, just like the young mother, can

have a flexible schedule for getting children on and off the bus, for

dealing with when children are ill and have to have well visits with

their physicians and so forth, but it is the same package; it is the

same mind-set for us. The age of the employee is, frankly, irrelevant to that benefit.

Senator CASEY. I know one of the realizations that animates or

undergirds this discussion is what older workers, as you have all

highlighted in one way or another, can bring to a workforce, not

simply the deep reservoir of experience and skill, but often both wit

and wisdom at the same time.

What we try to do at hearings like this, in addition to learning

and hearing suggestions about the current State of a challenge or

a problem or an opportunity, are the things that we can do legislatively to move it forward. Sometimes there is not. Sometimes there

is no legislative remedy or strategy, but I guess just in the remaining time I have, if we can go, starting with you, Dr. Rix, and move

to my right, just kind of one top-line suggestion that you would

hope we would work on either by way of strengthening or changing

a policy or introducing some new legislative or policy change.

Dr. RIX. Well, there are a number—I think I mentioned in my

oral testimony that additional resources for training and retraining

older workers would be at the top of my list, but there are a number of other perhaps some less dramatic and maybe less impactful

recommendations, and one would be to expand the Age Discrimination and Employment Act’s jurisdictional threshold to businesses

with 15 or more employees rather than the current 20-plus. That

would protect more older workers.

Requiring employers to provide paid family leave programs

should make it easier for middle-aged and older workers with

caregiving responsibilities among others to combine those responsibilities with paid work.

Eliminating some of the impediments to formal phased retirement programs might additionally enable workers to obtain the

work schedules that many of them tell us they are interested in.

You might want to take a look at—rather than my going through

all of them right now, take a look at those recommendations in the

written testimony.

Senator CASEY. Thank you. I know we are——

Dr. RIX. If I could say one other thing, though, I do think that

most of the burden rests squarely on the shoulders of employers,

and it is up to them to provide the job opportunities to older workers. While legislative initiatives might help somewhat, if employers

do not want or need older workers, then I am not sure there is

much that policy can do to change that.
19 

Senator CASEY. We are out of time, maybe for our remaining witnesses, we will submit something for the record. Thank you very

much. 

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Casey, if you do want to have the rest

of the witnesses respond, I would be happy to have them do so.

Senator CASEY. Is this a lightning round?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator CASEY. As long as the Chairman will allow you to answer, that is how much time you have.

Ms. NORDMAN. Well, as an employer, I agree it is our responsibility. I think it is our responsibility to not discriminate on any

level and to provide a workplace that is safe and friendly and productive. I do agree that it is on us, you know, to provide jobs for

older workers.

Senator CASEY. Thank you.

Ms. HANNON. A couple of quick highlights. I think to encourage

a more flexible workforce, work arrangements, because older workers really want autonomy. They want to be able to work from

home. It does not have to cost more to retrofit your office, if you

can do that.

I think a commitment to the community college system, who already has 50-plus programs for education. If there is any way we

could build on what they are offering today, I think that is great.

There is a wonderful consortium recently in New York City that

Encore.org brought together with the universities around the country trying to figure out how can we deal with this segment of our

population that needs education, which we have ignored for years.

It is not the young people; it is the old folks. We need programs

for them.

Finally, I think the idea of financing, making financing easier for

senior entrepreneurs to have access to that. A lot of people in this

age group really do want to start their own business. They want

to be their own boss, and it is really hard to get loans for them.

Senator CASEY. Thank you.

Mr. GODWIN. I would add, as Senator Kaine knows, we have a

high percentage of veterans in Virginia, and I would ask you to

preserve and enhance the educational benefits for veterans. That

really benefits the older population as well.

Senator CASEY. Thanks very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Senator Kaine.

Senator KAINE. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to the witnesses, and Mr. Godwin, welcome from our home town.

You know, I came to the hearing really thinking about the work

needs of older workers, and what I found myself thinking in your

testimony is this question of flexibility for workers. Mr. Godwin,

your testimony is about your particular industry. It is not just for

older workers. It was for in a health care field that was very much

dominated by women workers. It was schedules that were appropriately flexed for family needs, and so you guys may have been

kind of culturally a pioneer, some of the flexible work arrangements, and yet that really does seem to be a broader trend for older

workers and others.
20 

My dad sold his manufacturing business and decided he wanted

to just be a volunteer for a local Catholic Charities organization

and volunteer one or two days a week. Then they said, ‘‘Well, we

would really like to hire you.’’ ‘‘Well, I do not want to be hired because I want more flexibility.’’ They struck a deal where he is

working like a day or two a week as a volunteer and then being

paid for a day or two a week, but with flexibility every week in

terms of how many days he works. My dad is 80 years old, and his

arrangement is very similar to my middle son, who is an artist and

works in a restaurant just enough hours to make enough money to

do his art, which is what he really wants to do, and he said that

everybody who works at the restaurant is just like him. They are

all artists. They are all working enough to have an income that will

support their artistic passion.

It strikes me that we are maybe moving into a new age of work

where the traditional sort of 40-hour work week, the 9-to–5 is probably less and less the case, whether it is for seniors or others.

Senator Warner, my colleague in Virginia, recently gave a great

speech. He said, ‘‘If you see a young person, do not ask them,

‘Where do you work?’ Ask them, ‘What are you working on?’ ’’ That

is a much a better question for their particular condition.

I applaud you guys at Bon Secours for being a pioneer on the

flexibility side. How hard is that for you as a human relations professional? You guys are open 24/7/365, so you have a lot of staffing

slots to fill, but if we can put the word out to more and more employers that flexibility is a great way to find great workers who

want flexibility, I think it is a highly prized thing if you are a

worker and you want flexibility and you can find an employer that

will give it.

As a human relations professional, what challenges does that

pose to your organization?

Mr. GODWIN. Well, the challenge is—and what I would challenge

the lawmakers and employers to look at is flexibility is not just

about scheduling. It is about telecommuting, and it is about the nature of the work and how you redesign the workspace, so flexibility

is a lot more than just scheduling.

The challenge for us, I think, has been over time to keep reinventing ourselves. We do not rest on our laurels and think that

whatever idea we have come up with now is going to fit how things

are going to be five years from now. We are constantly studying,

we are constantly looking at other employers, learning from panels

like this, and from a lot of the awards we apply for, for employer

awards, because there is a lot to be learned there as well, to see

how we can continually improve that. You cannot just do it like you

are doing it now. You have to continually change.

Senator KAINE. The fact that you guys have—Bon Secours has

been so awarded since 2005 by AARP and others as a great place

for older workers has been a real tribute to that culture, and I applaud you for that, but yes, I think the hearing is really getting at

the notion that not just for older workers but for a lot of folks, just

the world of work is changing and the way—you know, people used

to go to work for one organization and stay with an organization

for their entire life. You do not see that happening much anymore,
21 

either, so there is flexibility in who you work with during a career,

and this is getting at it.

Dr. Rix, I could not resist in the questions about Social Security

disability, which was not my intent, but you said you think we do

need to reform it, but obviously, we do not want to gut Social Security to reform Social Security disability, but I would love to hear

your thoughts for us, because I think we do have to grapple with

the notion of Social Security disability and, in fact, reforms of it,

so that people who are disabled and need it know that they can

count on it, so I would just be curious as to your thoughts about

reform, because we do have to tackle it.

Dr. RIX. Well, if you would indulge me, I would really prefer to

defer to my colleagues who are far more expert on the disability insurance program than I am. It is a complicated system. There have

been reform proposals for years and years, and I think I will leave

it to the true Social Security.

Senator KAINE. Well, I would love to talk to some of the folks

with your organization about it. You know, I think sometimes there

is a tendency, if you talk about reform, that, you know, the bells

go off and people say you are trying to gut the program. You know,

we have been willing, Congress corporately has been willing since

Social Security passed in the 1930’s to make adjustments and

tweaks to keep it actuarially sound so that, you know, we can have

it there for us and it can be there for the next generation, and I

do not want to be like the first generation of Congress that is unwilling to make changes to make sure that it is there for the next,

so I do think there is need for reforms, and if your organization has

ideas about that, I would be quite interested in it. With that, thank

you, Madam Chair.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Senator. We enjoyed hearing your exchange with your constituent.

One of the takeaways that I have from this hearing is that older

workers often are more dependable, bring certain skills, allow employers to avoid retraining and turnover that may occur with a

younger workforce, but that flexibility is very important to them,

and I think it is very interesting that Ms. Nordman’s testimony

was that she has a worker who comes in very early in the day to

start working, and Mr. Godwin also talked about flexible hours and

making sure that grandchildren could come to the daycare center.

It seems to me that another lesson from this hearing is that we

need to tailor more of our programs to make sure that people have

the skills that are for the jobs that exist, that there is often a mismatch between job training and the jobs that actually are out

there, and I was interested to learn of the Occupational Handbook

that Ms. Hannon mentioned, and Dr. Rix also talked about the

need to better align the training and education for the workforce

for older workers, or any workers, with the jobs that are actually

out there, so I think this has been a very interesting exploration

of this issue.

One of the goals of our Committee is to explore the issue of retirement security. In our State of Maine, the State that Ms.

Nordman and I live in, one out of three retired individuals lives

only on Social Security, and the average Social Security benefit is

less than $16,000 a year, so the kind of jobs that Ms. Nordman is
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providing in an area of the State that is very rural and does not

have a lot of employers is so essential to the financial security of

those workers that you are employing, and indeed, I would wager

that it is the difference between a comfortable standard of living

and poverty for many of them, because if they are living on just

their Social Security, they are going to have a very difficult time.

I just want to express my personal appreciation for your willingness to leave the more affluent urban areas of our State and come

to rural Maine, buy a business, keep it alive, grow it, and employ

older workers. You are really making the kind of difference that a

good employer can make, and in the end, it does come down to employers being able to do what you are doing, what Mr. Godwin is

doing, to accommodate workers, and in return you get a wonderfully loyal, devoted, and hardworking workforce, as both of you

have explained.

I also very much appreciate our two technical experts for being

here today and sharing your expertise with the Committee as we

continue to explore this issue.

I think this is an issue that has not received the attention that

it deserves, and I think we are facing a tsunami of retirees who

will find that they are going to outlive their savings, that they have

not prepared for their retirement, and working longer or working

part-time or returning to work is a very important part of financial

security for older Americans, and that is a message that I hope our

Committee is helping to disseminate.

I want to thank you all very much for being here today. I want

to see if our Ranking Member has any closing comments that she

would like to make.

Senator MCCASKILL. No, and I just want to clarify that my points

about the challenges of health care for workers between 50 and 65,

I understand, Ms. Nordman, you are doing something that is very

unusual in our country, and that is, trying to revitalize manufacturing in rural communities. I grew up for part of my childhood in

a town called Lebanon, Missouri, where we had a facility that was

manufacturing jeans, and it is, of course, long gone, and many

other facilities like that across Missouri and rural communities

that provided important manufacturing opportunities.

I get the challenges, and I get that what you are doing and the

fact that you have got ten and you are looking for two more, that

shows that you are smart and you are doing the right thing and

you are expanding your workers, because obviously you have got

demand and you are producing something that people want to buy,

so congratulations on that, and to all of you, thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank

you for your extraordinary participation always in putting together

this hearing. I want to note that Senator Sasse was also here for

part of the hearing today, and I want to thank all of our witnesses

for their contributions.

The hearing record will remain open for additional testimony and

questions until Friday, July 10th. We are giving the holiday week

to have a little bit of additional time, and I also want to thank the

Committee staff for their hard work.

This concludes our hearing.

[Whereupon, at 3:16 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
APPENDIX 

Prepared Witness Statements

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