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HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGHTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

ON

NOMINATION OF JUSTICE M. CHAMBERS, OF MARYLAND,

TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF OFFICE OF

EMERGENCY PLANNING

S. 2020

NAVAL PETROLEUM RESERVE NO. 4, POINT BARROW, ALASKA

S.J. RES. 129

INSTRUCTION AT AIR FORCE ACADEMY OF CITIZEN OF THAILAND

S.J. RES. 175

INSTRUCTION AT NAVAL ACADEMY OF TWO CITIZENS OF BELGIUM

H.R. 9752 (S. 2719)

AUTHORIZING MILITARY SUPPORT TO THE BOY SCOUTS OF

AMERICA IN CONNECTION WITH THE WORLD JAMBOREE TO

BE HELD IN GREECE IN 1963

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APRIL 26, 1962

Printed for the use of the Committee on Armed Serviga

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON: 1962

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COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

RICHARD B. RUSSELL, Georgia, Chairman

HARRY FLOOD BYRD, Virginia

JOHN STENNIS, Mississippi

STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri

HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington

SAM J. ERVIN, JR., North Carolina

STROM THURMOND, South Carolina

CLAIR ENGLE, California

E. L. BARTLETT, Alaska

HOWARD W. CANNON, Nevada

ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia

HARRY L. WINGATE, Jr., Chief Clerk

LEVERETT SALTONSTALL, Massachusetts

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine

FRANCIS CASE, South Dakota

PRESCOTT BUSH, Connecticut

J. GLENN BEALL, Maryland

BARRY GOLDWATER, Arizona
CONTENTS

Statement of— Page

Justice M. Chambers, nominee for Deputy Director of the Office of

Emergency Planning 2

S. 2020

Capt. Curtis Youngblood, USN, Deputy Director and Counsel of

Naval Petroleum and Oil Shale Reserves 6

Senate Joint Resolution 129

R. H. Topper, Office of Personnel Procurement and Training, Department of the Air Force 19

Senate Joint Resolution 175

Comdr. Robert H. Ewing, USN, Head, Naval Academy Midshipmen

Branch, Bureau of Naval Personnel 29

H.R. 9752 (S. 2719)

Paul H. Riley, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense (Installations

and Logistics) 24

III

41-•

MAV 28 19 62 .1

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NOMINATION AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

Nomination of Justice M. Chambers To Be Deputy Director of

Office of Emergency Planning, and Miscellaneous Bills, S.

2020, Senate Joint Resolution 129, Senate Joint Resolution

175, H.R. 9752

THURSDAY, APRIL 26, 1962

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:30 a.m., in room 212,

Senate Office Building.

Present: Senators Russell (chairman), Symington, Bartlett, Cannon, Saltonstall, Smith of Maine, and Bush.

Also present: Harry L. Wingate, Jr., chief clerk; Herbert S. Atkinson, assistant chief clerk; William H. Darden; T. Edward Braswell

and Gordon A. Nease, of the committee professional staff.

The CHAIRMAN. The first item on the committee's agenda this

morning is consideration of the nomination of Mr. Justice M. Chambers, of Maryland, to be Deputy Director of the Office of Emergency

Planning.

NOMINATION OF JUSTICE M. CHAMBERS, OF MARYLAND,

TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF OFFICE OF EMERGENCY

PLANNING

The CHAIRMAN. The nominee is better known to the members of

this committee as Colonel Chambers, one of the first members of this

committee's professional staff.

He served very effectively in that capacity. Will you have a seat,

Colonel?

(The nomination reference and biographical sketch of Justice M.

Chambers is as follows:)

NOMINATION REFERENCE AND REPORT

IN EXECUTIVE SESSION,

SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES,

April 9, 1962.

Ordered, That the following nomination be referred to the Committee on

Armed Services:

Justice M. Chambers, of Maryland, to be Deputy Director of the Office of

Emergency Planning, vice Edward A. McDermott.

Born February 2, 1908, Huntington, W. Va. Educated Marshall College,

Huntington, W. Va. Studied law at George Washington University, Washington, D.C., and National University. Received LL.B. degree 1931. Awarded

doctor of laws degree, Marshall College, 1952.
2 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

Entered Government service in 1927. From 1934 to 1936, he was Assistant

Chief of Planning, Procurement Division, Treasury Department.

From 1936 to 1940, he was Director of Personnel and aid to the Chairman of

the U.S. Maritime Commission. Initially was responsible, under the Commission,

for the reorganization of the U.S. Shipping Board Bureau and the Emergency

Fleet Corporation into the newly created Maritime Commission.

During World War II, he served with the U.S. Marines, retiring as a colonel

in 1946. He received, among other decorations, three Purple Hearts, the Silver

Star, Legion of Merit, and Congressional Medal of Honor.

After the war, he was Assistant Chairman of the Federal Personnel Council,

a post he left to become a professional staff adviser to the U.S. Senate Armed

Services Committee (1947 to 1950).

From 1950 to 1952, he was Assistant Administrator of the Federal Civil Defense

Administration. In 1952, he became the Executive Assistant Administrator and,

later, Acting Deputy Administrator of the Federal Civil Defense Administration.

He has also served as a consultant to the former Office of Defense Mobilization,

and as Chairman of the Program Advisory Committee of the Office of Emergency

Planning.

Since 1954, Mr. Chambers has been the head of J. M. Chambers & Associates,

consulting firm on various problems with government, with particular emphasis

in the field of international trade. He is married, has five children, and lives at

140 South Adams Street, Rockville, Md.

The CHAIRMAN. We congratulate you on your nomination. The

members of the committee, for the record and for the benefit of those

who are not present, would like to have a résumé of your experience.

Before you make that statement, however, I would like to point out

that the nomination of Mr. Chambers' son to be a second lieutenant

in the Marine Corps following graduation from the Naval Academy

is also before the committee as pending business at this time.

You may proceed, Mr. Chambers. You know what we expect.

Give us a brief outline.

STATEMENT OF JUSTICE M. CHAMBERS, OF MARYLAND, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF EMERGENCY

PLANNING

Mr. CHAMBERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Smith, Senator Saltonstall.

I am Justice M. Chambers. I have previously submitted a detailed

biography which I believe is in the files of the committee. However,

I am 54 years of age. I was born in Huntington, W. Va. I am now

a resident of Rockville, Md.

I was educated in Huntington, W. Va., at Marshall College and

studied law at George Washington University. I hold an LL.B.

degree from National University here in Washington and doctor of

laws degree from Marshall College. I have been in government

service since 1927. Up until about 1936, I would say, it was the

general type of work that you get into in government, various jobs,

moving, I think, always upward.

In 1936, I became Director of Personnel and an aid to the Chairman of the Maritime Commission. I was sent over there from the

Procurement Division, Treasury Department, where I was Assistant

Director of the Planning Division. My job, initially, was to handle

the reorganization of the U.S. Shipping Board Bureau and the Emergency Fleet Corporation into the then newly created Maritime

Commission.
NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 3

In 1940, I was mobilized with the Marine Corps Reserve unit here

in Washington, served during the war, and was retired in 1946 from

wounds received in action.

After the war, I was Vice Chairman of the Federal Personnel

Council, which position I left to come to work with this committee,

where I served until sometime in 1951, leaving here to become first

the Assistant Administrator for Planning, subsequently the Executive

Assistant Administrator, which is a chief of staff-type job, and then

I acted as Deputy Administrator for the Federal Civil Defense

Administration.

For a reason which I like to believe had nothing to do with politics,

but nevertheless 1 year after the administration changed, I left government, and from that period of time to date I have been head of

a consulting firm here in Washington in which we have specialized

in matters dealing with international trade, international financing,

and things of that type.

Mr. Chairman, it goes without saying that it is an honor and a

great privilege to come back before this committee as one who has

been nominated by the President for this position. I think if I am

deemed to be competent for these duties, it is substantially attributable

to the fact that for 5 years I struggled with some of these problems

right here in this committee. I guess, conversely, if I am not qualified

to serve, we can share the blame.

I know this committee's very keen interest in matters pertaining

to conflict of interest, and I would like to tell you what I have done

to assure the fact that there is no possible conflict in my case.

When I learned that the President was nominating me for this

position, I talked with Mr. Charles H. Kendall, General Counsel of

the Office of Emergency Planning. I had a few—not too many—

but a few shares of stock in various companies and we went over

them together. I perhaps went a little further than he felt was

necessary, but I have sold all my stocks, with the exception of a few

shares I have in a bank in Potomac, Md.

Where my business was concerned, it is a personal service-type of

business, which is a rather difficult thing to dispose of. Nevertheless,

I have sold it outright. I have no connections with anybody, no

commitments or future commitments of any type with any business

firm.

I came up to see Mr. Darden of your staff, gave him a copy of the

contract of sale for my company, which he has, Mr. Chairman, along

with a letter that I wrote to the General Counsel of the Office of

Emergency Planning, outlining the things that I have done, and I

know of nothing, sir, that I have that would cause a conflict. The

only investment I have outside of the stocks in the bank is in some

real estate in northern Virginia. Outside of that, sir, I know of nothing.

I will be happy to answer any questions that the committee might

ask.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Saltonstall?

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, may I just say to Colonel

Chambers, I congratulate you upon your nomination to this position.

I knew and appreciated your services when you were on the staff of

this committee and I was sorry to see you leave it, but I know you

left it to advance yourself and you have done so.
4 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

I have no questions about your ability to do the job which you

now have. I am amazed that you have a son sufficiently old to be a

second lieutenant in the Marines, because I can remember when the

family was coming on very well.

Mr. CHAMBERS. Senator Saltonstall, I think I should refresh your

memory on one point. I have four sons. The marine is the oldest

son. I have a daughter, however, who is the oldest child and I am

now a grandfather three and a third times. Time just passes.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Senator SALTONSTALL. May I ask just this one question? I have

in front of me your bill of sale to Mr. Oztemel of these noninterestbearing notes. What are the dates of those notes?

When do they come due, in other words?

Mr. CHAMBERS. That is set out in the contract, sir, which you have

in front of you. They come due on the 31st of January of each year,

starting in 1963 and running for 5 years.

Senator SALTONSTALL. So that these notes will run—you will be

paid on this contract for the next 5 years?

Mr. CHAMBERS. That is correct, sir. However, it is a fixed-sum

sale. There will be no variation of what I am paid.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Those are valid notes in every way?

Mr. CHAMBERS. Those are valid notes. They have not yet been

deposited, sir, because I was waiting until confirmation was out of the

way, but they will be deposited with my bank for collection as soon

as confirmation is made.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bartlett?

Senator BARTLETT. I would only want to say, pursuing Senator

Saltonstall's line of inquiry, that while Mr. Cham'bers' appearance

may cause one to be surprised that he is old enough to have a son old

enough to be a lieutenant in the Marines, the date of his birth would

indicate that he is an old frontiersman rather than a new one. We

have been passing on nominations to high office of people born yesterday, around 1920.

So I congratulate and compliment you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Smith?

Senator SMITH. I have no questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bush?

Senator BUSH. I may be asking the gentleman to repeat, Mr.

Chairman, but I would like to understand a little more; what is this

Office of Emergency Planning? That is one I am not very familiar

with.

Mr. CHAMBERS. Sir, the Office of Emergency Planning, with a

rough-cut approach to it, could best be described as the old agency,

the Office of Defense Mobilization. You will recall in the past administration the Federal Civil Defense Administration and the Office

of Defense Mobilization were combined into the Office of Civil Defense Mobilization.

President Kennedy, a year ago—slightly less than that—spun off

the responsibility for the operations of civil defense to the Department of Defense, leaving the residual responsibilities to the Office of

Emergency Planning. Broadly speaking, it is concerned with the

field of resource planning and resource management, with consider-
NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 5

able emphasis being placed on resource management under emergency conditions.

Senator BUSH. It has mostly to do with planning in an industrial

field entirely?

Mr. CHAMBERS. That is basically correct, sir. I must say, too, that

it is not an operating agency; it is a planning agency and its job is to

see that these jobs are done through the regularly constituted agencies of Government. But the great bulk of the work, it is quite correct to say, is in the field of industry, but it has overtones in other

areas.

Senator BUSH. The idea of planning is supposed to prepare us for

z. war economy; is that right?

Mr. CHAMBERS. In substantial part.

Senator BUSH. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. It

looks to me like this gentleman's experience would fit him very well

for this job.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a very important office. It makes recommendation as to imports and to U.S. fixing of prices of petroleum and

things of that nature, and handles the stockpile.

I think you also have plans for evacuation of the civilian population;

do you not?

Mr. CHAMBERS. No, sir; that is one of the operating responsibilities

of the civil defense 

The CHAIRMAN. That is one of the things that was sent over to the

Pentagon?

Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes, sir. We have responsibility under section 8

of the Trade Agreements Extension Act of 1958 to pass on imports

where they would have an impact on national security 

The CHAIRMAN. And do you have responsibilities on stockpiling?

Mr. CHAMBERS. Very heavy responsibilities for that.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Where is the Office of Emergency Planning?

Mr. CHAMBERS. We are located in the so-called Executive Office

Building, sir, the old State, War, and Navy Building, immediately

adjacent to the White House. We are only three hundred-some in

Washington, and, with a small field staff. The bulk of our people are

in the Winder Building, across the street.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And you are on the civilian side, just to

refresh my memory, of the splitup job?

Mr. CHAMBERS. That is correct. And, Senator, in substantial

part, the genesis of this agency lays back in the old National Security

Resources Board which was created to watch out for the civilian side

of the economy and gear it into the military.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bush, do you want to ask a question?

Senator BUSH. Yes, I wanted to ask, how big a staff do you have

in this office now, Mr. Chambers?

Mr. CHAMBERS. Senator, we are not up to our ceiling, and if the

present Director, Mr. McDermott, has his way, we will go down

rather than up. As I recall, our Washington staff ceiling is 310,

and we are substantially under that at the moment. Since our spinoff,

we are going into a reorganizing stage. This is not a pious statement

83838-62-2
6 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

of a bureaucrat. We are going to do this job with the smallest number

of qualified people.

Senator BUSH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions, we thank you,

Mr. Chambers.

(The nomination of Mr. Chambers was subsequently approved

by the committee in executive session and confirmed by the Senate on

April 27, 1962.)

S. 2020

The CHAIRMAN. The next item on the agenda is S. 2020, introduced

by one of our committee members, Senator Bartlett, and his colleague, Senator Gruening. The purpose of the bill is to authorize

the Secretary of the Navy to sell gas from the South Barrow gas fuel

field to the native village of Barrow and other non-Federal communities. We have received favorable reports from the Department of

Defense and the Department of the Interior. The Departments

suggest some minor amendments.

(The bill referred to is as follows:)

[S. 2020, 87th Cong., 1st sem]

A BILL To amend part IV of subtitle C of title 10, United States Code, to authorize the Secretary of the Navy to develop the South Barrow gas field, naval petroleum reserve numbered 4, for the purpose of making gas available for sale to the native village of Barrow and to other non-Federal communities and installations, and for other purposes

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That section 7422 of title 10, United States Code, is amended by adding the following paragraph:

"(c) The Secretary of the Navy may under the terms of paragraph (a) of this section develop the South Barrow gas field, naval petroleum reserve numbered 4,

to supply the Department of Defense and other Federal agencies that are now or

may hereafter be located at or near Point Barrow, Alaska, and for the purpose of

supplying gas to the native village of Barrow, and to other non-Federal communities and installations at or near Point Barrow, Alaska."

SEC. 2. Section 7430 of title 10, United States Code, is amended so that paragraph (a) reads as follows:

"(a) The Secretary of the Navy in administering the naval petroleum reserves

under this chapter shall use, store, sell, or exchange for other petroleum or refined

products, the oil and gas products, including royalty products, from lands in the

naval petroleum reserves, including gas products from lands in the South Barrow

gas field of naval petroleum reserve numbered 4, and lands outside petroleum

reserve numbered 1 covered by joint, unit, or other cooperative plans, for the

benefit of the United States."

SEC. 3. Section 7432 of title 10, United States Code, is amended by striking out

paragraphs (a) and (b) and inserting in lieu thereof the following:

"Appropriations available to the Department of Defense for expenses and

obligations incurred in carrying out the purposes of this chapter may be reimbursed from any money accruing to the United States under this chapter."

The CHAIRMAN. The Department of Defense member who has

appeared to explain the merits is Capt. Curtis T. Youngblood.

STATEMENT OF CAPT. CURTIS YOUNGBLOOD, USN, DEPUTY

DIRECTOR AND COUNSEL OF NAVAL PETROLEUM AND OIL

SHALE RESERVES

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, I am Capt. Curtis T. Youngblood, U.S. Navy, Deputy Director

and Counsel of Naval Petroleum and Oil Shale Reserves.

I am here today, representing the Secretary of the Navy, and I am

appearing on behalf of the Department of Defense to testify concern-
NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 7

ing S. 2020, a bill to authorize the Secretary of the Navy to develop

the South Barrow gasfield, Naval Petroleum Reserve No. 4, for the

purpose of making gas available for sale to the native Alaskan village

of Barrow and to other non-Federal communities and installations in

the Point Barrow area.

At present, title 10, United States Code, section 7422, requires the

Secretary of the Navy to cause the naval petroleum reserves to be

produced under certain circumstances. Such production is to be

had whenever and to the extent that the Secretary of the Navy finds

it necessary for national defense. Then, with Presidential approval

and after authorization by a joint resolution of Congress, such production may take place.

S. 2020, when enacted by the Congress and approved by the President, would permit the Secretary of the Navy to cause natural gas to

be produced and sold from that portion of Naval Petroleum Reserve

No. 4 known as the South Barrow gasfield. Such production and sale

would not need to be related specifically to a finding by him that the

production was needed for national defense.

No direct national defense purpose is to be achieved by the passage

of this bill. However, the ends to be achieved are so intricately

related to the welfare and economics of the people in the area and of

the Federal agencies concerned, as to serve a humanitarian and overall

defense purpose.

The people of the United States are, of course, our most valuable

national defense asset. Now, the residents of the village of Barrow,

about 1,300 in number, who struggle with the inhospitable clime on

the rim of the Arctic Ocean, are a part of the people of the United

States, in the most northern community of our Nation.

In a report appearing in the Anchorage Times on June 6, 1961, it is,

related that these people invariably suffer an annual fuel shortage and

that coal, when available, costs more than $40 per ton and oil is nearly

a dollar per gallon. It seems inhumane and incongruous that these

people would have to continue to suffer the physical and economic

hardships of fuel shortage, when an adequate supply of natural gas

is so close at hand. Senator Bartlett of Alaska was quoted in the

same news article as follows:

It would be both inexcusable and inhumane were we not to do all things possible

to allow these hardy people the right to enjoy the fuel taken from the very ground

upon which their ancestors have lived for centuries.

Should it be the desire of the Congress, in the light of the special

circumstances indicated above, to authorize sales of gas from the

South Barrow gasfield to the Point Barrow community, the Department of the Navy, on behalf of the Department of Defense, would

favor the enactment of the provisions of S. 2020 for this purpose.

There are now two producing gas wells in the South Barrow gasfield. One of them was completed in 1950 as an element of the

exploration of the vast potential of Naval Petroleum Reserve No. 4,

and the other was completed in 1955. Gas production from these

wells is now being used in logistic support of all federally owned

installations in the area: the Navy, the Air Force, the Weather

Bureau, the Federal Aviation Agency, the Public Health Service, and

the Alaskan Native Service.

Even this use, although entered into only after consultation with

both Armed Services Committees of the Congress and eminently
8 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

sensible from economic, utilitarian, and defense standpoints, has not

been authorized by statute. Accordingly, the Department of the

Navy, on behalf of the Department of Defense, favors those provisions

of S. 2020 which would specifically authorize this use of gas.

The two present wells are being called upon to produce about

700,000 cubic feet of gas daily during peak demand periods and about

half that much during slack demand periods. The older of the two

wells can presently produce only about one-fifth as much as the other

well. This is because, when its natural pressure is drawn upon too

heavily, water invades the tubing in the well and serious icing conditions result. In order to avoid this water invasion, which in time

could kill the new as well as the old well, the amount of the drain

upon the older well must be severely restricted. In order to provide

a needed safety margin for the continued present demands upon the

wells, it will very soon become necessary to drill a third well. A

third gas well would serve the purposes of this safety margin, serve to

further delineate the size of the pool whence the gas comes, and serve

to satisfy the Secretary of the Navy's statutory duty of exploration

and development of the petroleum reserves.

Should S. 2020 become law, the above-mentioned third gas well

would become an immediate necessity. This is because the additional anticipated drain upon the two present wells, occasioned by

the use of gas by additional consumers, would, from a sound gasfield

engineering standpoint, endanger the present wells unless a substantial

additional volume of gas is obtainable from another producing well or

two. The Navy would, of course, commence the drilling of another

gas well in the field as soon as practicable after the passage of S. 2020

and as soon as funds for the purpose of the third well could be made

available.

Should S. 2020 become law, the Navy should not undertake the

management functions required in the distribution and sale of the

gas. The Secretary of the Navy would contract for the sale of all

gas at the wellhead. Such contract would be entered into only after

existing statutory procedures have been complied with; that is, public

sale, consultation with the Armed Services Committees of the Con-

°Tess and Presidential approval.

The contractor would sell and distribute the gas, as required, to all

the consumers in the area which now or hereafter require gas. In

view of the possibility that, due to the remote location, small number

of consumers, climatic conditions and limited profits, no contractor

could be obtained, the Congress may desire to authorize the use of

the existing Government-owned pipeline for all consumers. In this

respect it is understood that the Department of the Interior has

recommended that an additional section be added to S. 2020 which

would authorize purchasers of gas or carriers of the gas to install

connections to such pipeline. The Department of the Navy, on

behalf of the Department of Defense, interposes no objection to that

recommendation.

Section 3 of S. 2020 would amend existing law so as to permit the

expenses and obligations necessary to carry out the administration of

the naval petroleum reserves to be deducted from the proceeds of the

operations of the reserves and deposited to the appropriate appropriations of the Department of Defense, thus relieving the military

budget in this amount.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman,imay I interrupt?
NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 9

You have just read the first sentence on page 7 which would concern

the expenses of operation.

Now, my question is this: You make no comment as to where

the money will come from to build this third well if it is necessary to do

so and you say it is. Now, would that come out of appropriations, or

would that come out of the funds that are built up in this petroleum

reserve?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. It would have to come out of newly appropriated funds specifically appropriated for that purpose, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. That is what I wanted to find out.

Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. Resuming at the top of page 7:

Section 3 of S. 2020 would amend existing law so as to permit the

expenses and obligations necessary to carry out the administration of

the naval petroleum reserves to be deducted from the proceeds of the

operations of the reserves and deposited to the appropriate appropriations of the Department of Defense, thus relieving the military budget

in this amount.

The balance of such proceeds would be covered into the Treasury.

The Bureau of the Budget has advised that it does not favor this

proposed manner of funding the operations of the naval petroleum

reserves and prefers the continuation of the current method of financing the reserves out of appropriations as authorized by section 7432,

title 10, United States Code. It is recommended, therefore, that

section 3 of S. 2020 be deleted.

In the nature of a technical comment, it is noted that although

S. 2020 would amend title 10, United States Code, it is not drafted

in the desired style and format for amendments to that title. Accordingly, a substitute draft bill, in the desired style and format, and

excluding the matter in section 3 has been prepared and submitted to

the committee in our written report on this bill. It is recommended

that that draft bill be considered in lieu of S. 2020.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my prepared statement, and now I

am prepared to attempt to answer any questions which the committee

may desire to ask relative to this matter.

The CHAIRMAN. Before I ask a question, I would like to make an

observation. I have been hearing statements before this committee

for some time and I have never heard a department approve a bill in

the language used on page 3:

Should it be the desire of the Congress, in the light of the special circumstances

indicated above, to authorize sales of gas from the South Barrow gasfield to the

Point Barrow community, the Department of the Navy, on behalf of the Department of Defense, would favor the enactment of the provisions of S. 2020 for this

purpose.

In other cases, the Department usually says that it favors or

disapproves of legislation. Does that comment indicate any viewpoint on behalf of the Navy that there is something wrong with this

proposition and you want us to take the onus in the Congress; that

you are not recommending the thing completely and wholeheartedly?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. Mr. Chairman, that does not indicate any

on the part of the Department of the Navy or the Department of Defense. The language is so couched because the naval

petroleum reserves are considered to be handled by the Congress and
10 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

the Department of the Navy is the custodian of these reserves. We

do with those reserves what the Congress authorizes the Secretary to

do. Because of that, the language is so couched: "if it is the desire

of the Congress, then the Secretary will do it." It does not indicate

any reservation whatsoever on the part of the Navy.

Senator BUSH. Mr. Chairman, is there any precedent for this kind

of a deal where the Navy sells gas to communities?

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think so. It would not be necessary to

get this legislation if there was any legal authorization for it. This

is a special circumstance which is involved.

Now, Captain, you indicate that the two wells that are now in

operation are supplying just about enough gas to take care of the

Government agencies that are now utilizing this gas?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. That is correct, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that if we pass this bill and supply the community of Barrow, it will be necessary to drill another well.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. One or more wells; we do not know.

The CHAIRMAN. What does it cost to drill a well in that area?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. The last well drilled there cost $330,000.

The CHAIRMAN. How long is it going to take you to amortize the

cost of drilling two more wells in a community of 1,300 people?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. It will take a long time.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, the Government is going to lose

money on this at the best.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. I do not think it will be a moneymaking

proposition for the Government, from the standpoint of profit and

loss.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you made any estimate as to whether it

will be possible for them to amortize one or more wells? You say

nothing about the rate that is to be charged for this gas. Is it to be

furnished free or has some compensation been arranged?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. That is not contained in here, Mr. Chairman,

because we do not know the price we can get for gas up there or

whether we can get a price for it. In 1958 there was a company, the

Alaska Propane Co., which was interested in such a proposition, being

the distributor of the gas to the town of Barrow. At that time, we

know that we would have had one bidder. Now, we do not know

exactly whether that company would bid or if any company would bid.

For that reason we have indicated in the statement that it might not

be possible to get a contract, and then, along with the recommendation

of the Department of the Interior, we agree that it will be fitting if

this line could be so constructed that gas could be taken off from it

and distributed, perhaps maybe by the Department of the Interior,

through some arrangement that it would want to make to the Barrow

village. Our present planning would be to sell the gas at the wellhead.

The CHAIRMAN. But you do not know that anybody would buy

it?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. We do not at this time. We have reason

to believe that once this type of legislation were enacted, then we

would have some interest.

The CHAIRMAN. Would• an amendment that charges should be

made for this gas that would amortize over a period of 40 years the

cost to the government of drilling these wells—would the Navy

object to something of that kind?
NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 11

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. I would like to point out, Mr. Chairman,

that 

The CHAIRMAN. Or 30 years or whatever an ordinary period of

amortization is?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. As you know, all of the work that is done

and carried on in the Navy program for the petroleum reserves is

scrutinized closely by Congress.

The CHAIRMAN. I know that is true in theory, Captain.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. We consult with your committee and with

the committee in the House on our contracts, all aspects of them—

The price we would be getting, and so on.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you propose seeing whether gas could be utilized

in the community before you dig the well or do you propose to dig

the well before you see about it?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. We would have to have a need for the gas

before we put the well down. There is a need for a third well up

there at this time for the protection of the two wells that are being

used and overtaxed.

The CHAIRMAN. I have the greatest sympathy for these hardy

people who live there and an unbounded admiration for the author

of the bill, but it seems to me there ought to be something in the bill

charging them for this gas and the Government's realizing something

on it.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. We have no precedent in an area like this

on which to base price estimate. What we could get for it would

have to be sonething we would have to work out as we went along.

The CHAIRMAN. It could work out in essence that these people

would be practically getting this gas free under this bill and the Government assume the cost of digging these additional wells.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. Our contract would be let by public sale;

it would be advertised.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the Department give any consideration to

getting some contractor who would drill the well and supply the gas

instead of the Federal Government financing the drilling of the well

under these peculiar circumstances?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. The detail of how we would go about drilling this well would be a factor in considering how we would sell the

gas. It could be possible to find a contractor who would drill this

well, but in view of the cost and the location, the limited season, I

doubt that we would be able to find an independent contractor who

would be willing to go up there and drill his own well.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Saltonstall?

enator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, I agree with you. I think

this bill has to be very carefully considered. I have the greatest

sympathy, as has the chairman, for the people up in Barrow. If my

memory is right, Captain, is this not the oilfield that General Summerfield started to develop during the war and then it was found that it

was so expensive that it was given up, the pipelines to this field?

I am just curious.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. No; this is not the same. This is a res-,rve

which was set aside by President Harding. It is composed of the

northern slope of Alaska north of the Brooks Range, running from

there to the Arctic Ocean.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I wonder—I still think that this was part of

that area that was considered.
12 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. That field was in Canada, I believe, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Well, let me ask you a few questions following up what the chairman has said.

As I understand it from your statement, there is a new draft of a

bill and I have in front of me the draft that was submitted to the

committee, comprised of two sections. Then there is a third section

that the Secretary of the Interior suggests and which the Bureau of

the Budget advised that there is no objection to. Now, the first

section says the Secretary of the Navy may, under subsection (a),

develop the South Barrow gasfield.

Then section 2 says:

The Secretary of the Navy in administering the naval petroleum reserves under

this chapter shall use, store, or sell the products.

Now, if this field is developed and any contract is made, then the

Navy is under obligation to use, store, sell, or exchange for other

petroleum or refined products, the oil and gas products, including oil

products, from the naval reserves. My problem is this: Suppose you

do develop this, then you shall use, store, or exchange it. If you do

sell it to the private citizens of Barrow, how can you cut off their

service?

One question is, How can you cut off that service? An emergency

when the Government might want to use all of the oil: that is one

question.

A second question is, What is the responsibility of the Navy if you

allow direct access into the pipeline of the Government in case of

trouble? Suppose something breaks, or suppose there is a leak and

some people are killed from gas, what is the responsibility of the

Government? That is the second question.

Then I brought out also this third question under this amended

draft. You say the Navy, the Secretary of the Navy, shall use, store,

sell. In other words, he has no alternative; he has to go forward.

Then a fourth question is, How are you going to limit the installations to the pipeline? Suppose there are too many installations,

with too many requests. There is nothing in these two sections that

would give any limitation, because you say the Secretary of the Navy

shall do these things.

I raise those four questions, now. Just like the chairman, I have

some idea of the problems up in Barrow, just a very small idea,

because I have been in Nome and I know the difficulties up there.

But I would raise these questions to you as the representative.

There is nothing in this bill now, in this redraft, to cut off in an emergency. There is nothing said about the responsibility of the Government if there is trouble, and as I see this draft, in section 2, once

you have developed this field, the Secretary of the Navy shall make

these sales. Then a fourth question is, How are you going to limit

the installations that are requested on a Government pipeline by

outside customers for private purposes?

I raise those four questions which I think I would like to see some

answer to before I vote in favor of this bill.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. May I answer the last part first, the installation of the connections? That would be determined from an

engineering standpoint from the studies in the field and what possible

takeoffs could be made on that line.
NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 13

As to the emergency questions you mentioned, those would be

contractual. They would be covered by provisions in the contract

as to when the Government could cut off the supply of gas, or the

responsibilities of the Government and the contractor in connection

with the citizens.

The use of the word "shall" in the language of the statute there is

just a repeat of the present law. That section 

Senator SALTONSTALL. Yes; but you are changing the law to allow

private use.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. Only as to the Point Barrow gasfield.

Senator SALTONSTALL. But you are getting into a completely new

field. You are getting into a field outside of government services.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. That is correct.

Senator SALTONSTALL. As I read that statute, the Secretary of the

Navy would have to do it once they developed it. I do not raise

that as a permanent objection, but I think this bill has to be redrafted

very carefully if we are going to vote it out.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. That section is designed to add only three

words to section 7430 of the present law and that is to include the

South Barrow gasfield.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

I raised them because I think, Captain, if you are interested and

Senator Bartlett, who is our colleague and who I know is interested

and who is rightly interested—it is his area, his constituency—should

give careful consideration to some of these questions and perhaps

submit a redraft for this committee to consider, a redraft to be worked

out with our staff here and the Navy Department. I raise them because we all want to try to help Senator Bartlett if we possibly can

do it in this area, which is a very difficult area geographically.

Certainly we want to protect the Government and certainly we

want to know the answer to some of these problems. I do not think

you can answer them right here now. That is why I raised them in

the form I did.

I am through, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Smith?

Senator Smint. I have no questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bush?

Senator BUSH. Well, Mr. Chairman, I do not know that I have

any further questions. The questions in my mind have already been

raised. But despite the very strong human appeal in this thing—

and I can understand Senator Bartlett's concern for that reason—

I should not want to vote for this bill without seeing some estimate

of what results are expected from this bill. There seems to be no

idea what price we are going to have to pay for this gas, whether the

people there can afford to buy it at the price if we put the well in,

make the connections, distribute the gas. I think it is a very inadequate presentation for us to consider this kind of a business proposition. It is a very unusual proposition to begin with, and therefore

one that I think has to be justified by some solid estimates, some

reliable estimates of what kind of money is involved here and whether,

indeed, it is practical at all. The captain just does not have any

idea whether these people are going to buy the gas if we go to all the

trouble and expense of preparing the way for them to buy it.
14 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

So I think we have to have a much better presentation that this

before we can consider it.

On the basis of this presentation, I regretfully must say I should

hardly be able to vote for this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bartlett?

Senator BARTLETT. Captain, you said something a while ago that

I am not sure was heard by the other members of the committee.

Did you not state that in any case, it is going to be necessary for the

Navy to drill a third well?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; it is.

Senator BARTLETT. What you did not place in your prepared statement were other facts. It is understandable that you did not incorporate them, mainly, that the gas from the two existing wells goes,

in large part, to the Arctic Research Laboratory about 5 miles distant

from the well; is that correct?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; and to the other Government

facilities in the area.

Senator BARTLETT. But mainly to the Laboratory itself, which was

established a good many years ago at Barrow, and which is operated

by the Department of the Navy, Office of Naval Research, Yards

and Docks, Naval Ordnance Laboratory, Naval Electronics Laboratory, Hydrographic Office, Underwater Sound Laboratory.

Then the Army has an Office of Cold Regions Research there. The

Air Force is represented by the Cambridge Research Laboratory, the

Aeromedical Research Laboratory; the Bureau of Standards has

people there and the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey.

The U.S. Geological Survey, National Space Foundation, the National Science Foundation, Public Health Service, and the Alaska

Co-op Wildlife Unit, the Alaska Experimental Station.

These are all incorporated in the lab installation, which is about 3

miles from the village we have under discussion here.

Now, ever since this first gas well was drilled, it has supplied gas for

the essential Government installations. Three or four years ago, or

whenever it was, the line was extended from the lab site to the village

of Barrow, which, back in 1939, was a community of 363 people: in

1950, almost a thousand, and now has almost 1,400 inhabitants, substantially all, practically all of them being Eskimos.

So the civilian agencies of government which are located in the village of Barrow paid for the construction of a pipeline to the village

itself, and since then they and they only have had the benefits of

natural gas for heating.

The CHAIRMAN. How many of those people are there, Senator?

Senator BARTLETT. I would say four or five agencies—the hospital,

the Alaska Communications System of the Army, the Weather Bureau, essentially, the school, Bureau of Indian Affairs.

The CHAIRMAN. How many Federal employees are there living in

Barrow?

Senator BARTLETT. In the village?

The CHAIRMAN, Yes.

Senator BARTLETT. Probably about 50; maybe a few more, including the hospital help.

The CHAIRMAN. Where do other people operate all these laboratories?

Senator BARTLETT. That is 3 miles away.
NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 15

The CHAIRMAN. And they live adjacent to the laboratories?

Senator BARTLETT. Right at the same site, yes. Not too far.

It had better not be too far, because sometimes it is a little cold going

from home to office or lab.

Since then, the Government installations in the community have

been able to use gas. The Eskimos, on the other hand, have had the

requirement of buying coal, which at times has been as high as $56

a ton, or oil, which, as Captain Youngblood stated, is around $1 a

gallon.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is that imported from, Senator?

Senator BARTLETT. I think most of it comes from California.

The CHAIRMAN. No coal reserves in that area?

Senator BARTLETT. Coal, yes. Coal is about 70 miles away, but

the cost of mining and transportation makes it more expensive in

some cases than oil.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did these people get their heating system

before the Government built the laboratory?

Senator BARTLETT. You mean the Government agencies?

The CHAIRMAN. These Eskimos before we went in with the laboratories.

Senator BARTLETT. They used the same thing then as they use now,

oil or coal. You see, there is no wood there at all, no timber, for some

100 miles to the south. In the old days they used a little driftwood

and still earlier, when they had these homes half underground, they

used seal oil in the little lamps.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Will the Senator yield for a question?

Senator BARTLETT. Yes.

Senator SALTONSTALL. When you say 1,700, does that include the

people who live out at the laboratories?

Senator BARTLETT. No, no that is just in the village.

So there you have your pipeline already constructed and I think

this is important. All that would be necessary would be to make the

tie-in suggested by the Department of the Interior and then this gas

could be piped into the homes. I suppose there is not much point in

my emphasizing here the humanitarian aspects of this, but I cannot

refrain from doing so, briefly, in any case. Because here is this gas

so readily available. Here these people are required to pay these

enormous prices for other forms of fuel. The Bureau of Indian Affairs

originally was a bit frightened. They said that fires might result and

that the people might be burned to death. During the last 2 years

there have been some bad fires up there from the existing forms of fuel.

In fact, last winter the wife of a State legislator and five, I believe, of

her children were burned to death.

As Captain Youngblood said, this amends title 10, which requires

the Secretary of the Navy to sell at the highest price. Now, as I see it

(a) there is no doubt about the willingness of the Eskimo people of

this village of Barrow, which, by the way, is the farthest north village

under the American flag, to use gas and to pay for gas, because now

they have to pay for oil or coal. I would think (b) that this could be

arranged for either by the Interior Department, under the WheelerHoward Act—I do not know if that would be feasible—but perhaps

by the organization of a public utility district. This is a oft',' the

fourth class under the laws of Alaska.

31 WI 28 19 62 .

47i% - • .
16 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

Remember that this Naval Reserve No. 4 comprises an area of

35,000 square miles. These people, in a certain sense, are under the

jurisdiction of the United States, not only with respect to the fact

that the Navy controls all this land, but they are wards, the Eskimos,

actually, if not legally, of the U.S. Government.

We have a special obligation. And here we have a pipeline running

right to their doors, figuratively and in some cases literally.

In conclusion, I want to say that we are worried, and properly so,

about the cost, the appropriated cost of drilling another well. The

last wells, the captain said, cost a bit over $300,000. But I desire to

reiterate what Captain Youngblood just told us, that whether or not

this bill is passed, whether or not the Eskimos are permitted to use

this gas, the Navy, to protect the Arctic Research Laboratory, is

going to be required to drill this third well in order to assure the

availability of gas. I have no doubt whatsoever that the people

there would and could pay.

The CHAIRMAN. I want, of course, to do what we can, in this

instance to work out some accommodation. What do these 1,300 or

1,400 people there do for a livelihood?

Senator BARTLETT. Some of them work over at the Arctic Research

Laboratory. Others of them—Earl Brower, of whom I am sure you

have all heard, who wrote that delightful book, "50 Years Below

Zero"—they have stores, some of them work in service establishments,

and some of them still do as their ancestors did, hunt and fish. But

to a very great extent Eskimos there and elsewhere in Alaska have,

since the start of World War II, made this great leap from their

ancient way of life to the dollar economy.

They, more likely than not, depend upon the paycheck just as the

rest of us do.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, of course, there are a number of issues

presented here other than the humanitarian. I do not know of any

other instances where the Government has gone into the retail gas

and oil business, as authorized by this bill. I am not necessarily

afraid of establishing a precedent of this kind, but I want to know

where I am going.

I think the Navy has presented about as negligible a case as I

have ever seen presented in support of any bill. They did not give

us any estimate of the number of consumers, what the gas would sell

for, or how much gas would be required to take care of the civilians

who are to purchase at retail in the event it is authorized.

I do not think that an ordinary State public service commission

would issue a license of convenience and necessity on the evidence

considered here today. I hope you go back and see if you cannot

get some detailed information on this. If necessary—you must have

some naval engineers up in that area—send one over there to Barrow

to make an estimate of this situation, just to give us some idea of

what proportion of the cost must be borne, so we would know if it

will be sold under the rates that obtain there. I suppose some of the

other agencies repay the Navy, do they not, for this gas, or do you

furnish it free to the Air Force and so on?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. It is furnished on a common basis.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your price per square foot?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. It is not paid for by the foot. It is based

on the
NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 17

The CHAIRMAN. Can you not make some estimate of what it is

costing? You know what it would cost to dig the well, amortize the

well, put in a pipeline. You do not go through that process when

the Navy and these other agencies share this?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. The Weather Bureau handles the present

gas supply up there and the Navy contributes its share to the Weather

Bureau on the cost of it.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, the Weather Bureau bills the

Navy?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the cost per foot?

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, may I make a remark?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. I do not want to interfere with the witness, but if he is not ready to answer, go right ahead.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I just say this, Captain. I say this following up what the chairman has said to Senator Bartlett, that it seems

to me that we would be better off to have this bill gone over very

carefully, get some of these estimates and perhaps come back to

another hearing before the committee rather than to try to work

anything out at the moment. Because it seems to me from Senator

Bartlett's point of view, the bill should be very thoughtfully and

carefully considered and redrafted and brought up with some of the

statistics that the chairman and Senator Bush have asked for, and also

perhaps some of the points that I brought out on the responsibility

of the Navy.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. I might say that our thinking was that,

without some authority from the Congress to go ahead on this

exploration and development of this program, we had no reason to

do it.

Now, some of the things that you have asked for this morning are

information that we would have worked up and come back to you

before we went forward with any development program or any contract, any bids to be let, because of our standing policy of consulting

with the Armed Services Committee on what we do. But until we

had some authority like this bill authorizing the Secretary of the

Navy to go into this, we have not done that.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, this is a rather unusual bill; is it not, Captain?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know any other law that authorizes all

these alternatives, for the Government to sell at retail or try to find

a contractor?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. I do not know of any other situation.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think this is exactly covered by your

statement. I think we ought to be given all this information before

you come before us on the bill. I am sure Senator Bartlett is anxious

to have the bill considered and I want to go forward on it, but I want

you to come back for more than a routine approval of a contract.

Senator SMITH. Captain, did I understand you to say that there is

legislative authority under which the Secretary could act, but that

he was coming to the Congress to verify it or confirm it?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. No, Senator; I do not think you heard that.

Senator SMITH. I understood you to say that you were coming up

here for approval rather than legislation.

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. No; this bill would give the Secretary of

the Navy authority to go ahead with planning for developing the

(
18 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

South Barrow gasfield. That is what this bill is asking the Congress

to do—to give the Secretary of the Navy authority to do that.

Then we would come back with the plans we have for your approval

to go ahead.

Senator SMITH. There is not any legislation under which you could

act as far as carrying out the plans are concerned, after the plans are

made?

Captain YOUNGBLOOD. Not now.

Senator SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions of Captain Youngblood?

Senator Cannon?

Senator CANNON. No; thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. If not, we thank you, Captain. I do hope you will

get us a little more information and get it right away.

SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION 129

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is Senate Joint Resolution 129,

introduced by Senator Long of Hawaii, which would authorize the

Secretary of the Air Force to admit a citizen of Thailand to the Air

Force Academy for instruction on a reimbursable basis.

(The bill referred to is as follows:)

[S.J. Res. 129, 87th Cong., 1st sess.]

JOINT RESOLUTION Authorizing the Secretary of the Air Force to admit a citizen of the Kingdom

of Thailand to the United States Air Force Academy

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America

in Congress assembled, That, within one year after the date of enactment of this

joint resolution, the Secretary of the Air Force is authorized to admit Prabaddh

Riddhagni, a citizen and subject of the Kingdom of Thailand, to the United

States Air Force Academy for the purpose of receiving instruction at such Academy if the Secretary find the said Prabaddh Riddhagni to be mentally and

physically qualified; but the United States shall not be subject to any expense

on account of such instruction.

SEC. 2. Except as may be otherwise determined by the Secretary of the Air

Force the said Prabaddh Riddhagni shall, as a condition to receiving instruction

under the provisions of this joint resolution, agree to be subject to the same

rules and regulations governing admission, attendance, discipline, resignation,

discharge, dismissal, and graduation, as cadets at the United States Air Force

Academy appointed from the United States; but the said Prabaddh Riddhagni

shall not be entitled to appointment to any office or position in the United States

Air Force by reason of his graduation from the United States Air Force Academy.

SEC. 3. Nothing in this joint resolution shall be construed to subject the said

Prabaddh Riddhagni to the provisions of section 9348 of title 10 of the United

States Code.

The CHAIRMAN. The witness of the Department, Mr. R. H. Topper,

Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Personnel, Department of the

Air Force.

Mr. Topper.
4

NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 19

STATEMENT OF R. H. TOPPER, OFFICE OF PERSONNEL PROCUREMENT AND TRAINING, DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE,

ACCOMPANIED BY LT. COL. JACK REITER, OFFICE OF LEGISLATIVE LIAISON, DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE

Mr. TOPPER. I am Mr. R. H. Topper, of the Office of Personnel

Procurement and Training, Department of the Air Force, which has

been designated as the representative of the Department of Defense

for Senate Joint Resolution 129. It is a privilege for me to appear

before you today to support enactment of this legislation.

I have a prepared statement which I would like to present to you.

The proposal under consideration would provide authority for the

Secretary of the Air Force to admit Prabaddh Riddhagni to the U.S.

Air Force Academy. He is a citizen and subject of the Kingdom

of Thailand. To be admitted to the Academy he must be mentally

and physically qualified and must agree to be subject to the same

rules and regulations governing candidates appointed from the United

States. If he successfully completes the course of instruction at the

Academy he will under no circumstances be entitled to appointment

to any office or position in the U.S. Air Force or be required to serve

in any capacity in the U.S. Air Force.

Under the provisions of existing legislation as contained in title 10,

United States Code, a limited number of students from the Republic

of the Philippines, Canada, and the American Republics may receive

instruction at each of the service academies. Enrollment of students

from other countries may be authorized only under special legislation.

In the past, special legislation has been enacted to allow students from

Thailand to receive instruction at the U.S. Military Academy and

students from Belgium to receive instruction at the U.S. Naval Academy. No foreign student has been admitted to the Air Force Academy up to the present time.

The Department of Defense is currently processing a proposal which

would authorize a maximum of 40 persons from nations friendly to

the United States to receive instruction at each of the three service

academies. This proposal specifies that 4 vacancies would be reserved for students from the Republic of the Philippines, and 15 vacancies reserved for students from friendly Western Hemisphere

countries. Not more than 10 foreign students could be admitted to

each Academy in any calendar year and not more than 4 from any

one nation could receive instruction at any one time.

This authorization for foreign students would meet as nearly as

possible the requirements of all friendly nations without interfering

with the primary mission of the Academy. It will eliminate the necessity for special legislation to cope with the requests received from

friendly nations. As enactment of the proposed legislation does not

appear likely before the next class enters the Air Force Academy on

June 25, 1962, approval of Senate Joint Resolution 129 is being recommended to allow admission of Prabaddh Riddhagni with that class.

In view of the above, and the fact that the excellent relationship

presently existing between this country and Thailand, one of our

stanchest allies in southeast Asia, will be enhanced, the Department

of the Air Force on behalf of the Department of Defense supports

approval of this joint resolution.
20 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

It has been determined that enactment of this legislation will result

in no increased costs to the Department of the Air Force. Cost of

training of this student would be borne by the Government of Thailand.

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my prepared statement. There is

also present here today Lt. Col. Jack Reiter, Office of Legislative

Liaison, Department of the Air Force. We will be glad to answer any

questions you might have.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought you had authority now to admit people

from South America. Why do you refer to this bill that you mentioned on page 2?

Mr. TOPPER. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. You are putting a limitation on the bill you are

preparing; is that what you are doing?

Mr. TOPPER. No; we are retaining the permissive authority for the

South American students, also, but we are broadening it.

The CHAIRMAN. How many would you be permitted to have at the

present time?

Mr. TOPPER. At the present time, had we filled the quota, at the

present time we would have 24 foreign students.

The CHAIRMAN. How many of those would be from the Western

Hemisphere?

Mr. TOPPER. Twenty of them.

The CHAIRMAN. So you are really reducing the number of the

Western Hemisphere students to 15 and in this proposed legislation,

you are reducing it by 5.

Mr. TOPPER. I understand the other services are having difficulty

finding enough qualified boys in this area. As a matter of interest,

Canada has never participated for many years in the program. The

strongest participant, to our knowledge, has been the Philippine

Islands. They have consistently participated.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not like to see the allotment for nations in this

hemisphere reduced. It has been of great benefit to this country in

getting across to the people of those nations some idea of our mode of

life and the fact that we are not imperialistic in design, because we

have educated a great many of their leading military officers, either

at West Point or the Naval Academy. But that will be a matter we

will pass on when we get to that bill.

Mr. TOPPER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions in regard to this bill?

Senator Cannon?

Senator CANNON. Why have you not determined whether this man

is qualified at this time? Why pass special legislation if there is a

chance the man may not meet your qualizfications?

Mr. TOPPER. We have processed the boy on his medical examination. These are pilot requirements on his medical. The boy has

spent 2 years in school in Washington, D.C., on an accelerated program. He stood No. 1 of 29 students at one of the schools here in

Washington, D.C., particularly in the mathematics area. The boy

is very brilliant in the mathematics area. I understand that, like a

number of other boys of this type, he needs some improvement in

English. I understand he is working at this.

We had planned to have this boy take the college board test that

we require for admission into the Air Force Academy in March. Now,
4

igOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 21

in view of the boy's strong endeavors to improve in English, we felt

we would give him as much time as possible by having him take the

college board test in May, which is coming up shortly.

Senator CANNON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SMITH. Mr. Chairman, what school is he attending?

Mr. TOPPER. I believe he is in Worcester now, a very good school.

Could I make one more comment about this man?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. TOPPER. His father is a former commander in chief of the Royal

Thai Air Force. In some circles, he is called the George Washington

of Thailand. He is one of the biggest in that nation.

The CHAIRMAN. That, of itself, though, would not qualify him for

admission to the Air Force Academy?

George Washington himself did not have any sons. But if he had

one, I assume the Air Force Academy would have required him to

live up to the requirements.

Mr. TOPPER. Our admission requirements must be adhered to; yes,

sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?

(No response.)

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Topper.

(Subsequently, in executive session, the committee toted to report

S.J. Res. 129, without amendment, as covered by S. Rept. 1360.)

SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION 175

The CHAIRMAN. Next bill is Senate Joint Resolution 175, which was

introduced by the distinguished Senator from Massachusetts, Senator

Saltonstall.

This resolution would authorize the Secretary of the Navy to admit

two citizens of Belgium to the Naval Academy for instruction on a

reimbursable basis.

(The bill referred to is as follows:)

[S.J. Res. 175, 87th Cong., 2d sess.]

JOINT RESOLUTION Authorizing the Secretary of the Navy to receive for instruction at the United

States Naval Academy at Annapolis two citizens and subjects of the Kingdom of Belgium

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America

in Congress assembled, That the Secretary of the Navy is authorized to permit,

within eighteen months after date of enactment of this joint resolution, two

persons, citizens and subjects of the Kingdom of Belgium, to be admitted for

instruction at the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis, Maryland; but

the United States shall not be subject to any expense on account of such

instruction.

SEC. 2. Except as may be otherwise determined by the Secretary of the Navy

such persons shall, as a condition to receiving instruction under the provisions of

this joint resolution agree to be subject to the same rules and regulations governing admission, attendance, discipline, resignation, discharge, dismissal, and

graduation, as midshipmen at the United States Naval Academy appointed

from the United States; but they shall not be entitled to appcintment to any

office or position in the United States Navy by reason of their graduation from

the United States Naval Academy.

SEC. 3. Nothing in this joint resolution shall be construed to subject such

persons to the provisions of section 6959 of title 10 of the United States Code.

The CHAIRMAN. The departmental witness is Cmdr. Robert H.

Ewing, Head of the Naval Academy Branch, Bureau of Naval Personnel.

Commander Ewing, come forward, please, and have a seat.
22 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

STATEMENT OF COMDR. ROBERT H. EWING, U.S. NAVY, HEAD,

NAVAL ACADEMY MIDSHIPMEN BRANCH, BUREAU OF NAVAL

PERSONNEL, DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY

Commander EWING. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee,

I am Comdr. Robert H. Ewing, U.S. Navy, Head of the Naval

Academy Midshipmen Branch in the Bureau of Naval Personnel. I

am pleased to appear before you today on behalf of the Department of

Defense in support of Senate Joint Resolution 175.

This resolution authorizes two persons, who are citizens and subjects

of the Kingdom of Belgium, to be admitted for instruction at the

U.S. Naval Academy.

Under present law, only foreign students from the Philippines,

Canada, and the American Republics on a limited basis may attend

the Naval Academy. Whenever it is desired to admit students from

other foreign nations, it is necessary to obtain special legislation. In

the past, two Belgians were authorized in 1954 by Public Law 318

of the 83d Congress to receive instruction at the Naval Academy

and two more were authorized in 1958 by Public Law 86-183. The

resolution under consideration here today is based upon a request

by the Belgian Government for authorization to admit two additional

students in the class commencing in 1963, at which time the two Belgian midshipmen now at Annapolis will have graduated.

The Department of the Navy, on behalf of the Department of

Defense, therefore, supports Senate Joint Resolution 175 and urges

favorable consideration by this committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any information, Commander, as to

whether or not—only two are graduating?

Commander EWING. Two are graduating and two are in their third

year now.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether those two went into the

Belgian Navy and are actively serving there?

Commander EWING. They did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any requirement that any of these graduates actively serve in the forces of our allies?

Commander EWING. That would be a Belgian law which we are

not familiar with, sir. I know they are very carefully selected. This

is a project which is close to the heart of the Belgian Naval Ministry,

I think it is called.

The CHAIRMAN. In this last legislation, it was reimbursable. Is

this reimbursable?

Commander EWING. Yes, sir; it is reimbursable.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that cover all the expenses incurred—

uniforms, allowances?

Commander EWING. It amounts to $7,700 per midshipman for a

4-year course, I might say. That is for subsistence and things of

that nature.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Commander.

(Subsequently in executive session, the committee voted to report

S.J. Res. 175, without amendment, as covered by S. Rept. 1359.)
NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 23

H.R. 9752

The CHAIRMAN. The next bill is H.R. 9752, which would authorize

the Department of Defense to lend equipment and to provide services

to the Boy Scouts in connection with the World Jamboree to be held

in Greece in 1963.

(The bill referred to is as follows:)

[H.R. 9752, 87th Cong., 2d sess.[

AN ACT To authorize the Secretary of Defense to lend certain Army, Navy, and Air Force equipment

and to provide transportation and other services to the Boy Scouts of America in connection with the

World Jamboree of Boy Scouts to be held in Greece in 1963, and for other purposes

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of

America in Congress assembled, That (a) the Secretary of Defense is hereby authorized, under such regulations as he may prescribe, to lend to the National Council,

Boy Scouts of America, for the use and accommodation of the approximately

five hundred Scouts, Scouters, and officials who are to attend the World Jamboree,

Boy Scouts, to be held in Greece in July and August 1963, such tents

'

cots, blankets, commissary equipment, flags, refrigerators, and other equipment and services

as may be necessary or useful to the extent that items are in stock and available

and their issue will not jeopardize the national defense program.

(b) Such equipment is authorized to be delivered at such time prior to the

holding of such jamboree, and to be returned at such time after the close of such

jamboree, as may be agreed upon by the Secretary of Defense and the National

Council, Boy Scouts of America. No expense shall be incurred by the United

States Government for the delivery, return, rehabilitation, or replacement of such

equipment.

(c) The Secretary of Defense, before delivering such property, shall take from

the National Council, Boy Scouts of America, good and sufficient bond for the

safe return of such property in good order and condition, and the whole without

expense to the United States.

SEC. 2. (a) The Secretary of Defense is hereby authorized, under such regulations as he may prescribe, to provide, without expense to the United States Government, transportation from the United States or military commands overseas,

and return, on vessels of the Military Sea Transportation Service for (1) those

Boy Scouts, Scouters, and officials certified by the National Council, Boy Scouts

of America, as representing the National Council, Boy Scouts of America, at

the jamboree referred to in the first section of this Act, and (2) the eauipment and

property of such Boy Scouts, Scouters, and officials and the property loaned to

the National Council, Boy Scouts of America, by the Secretary of Defense pursuant to this Act to the extent that such transportation will not interfere with

the requirements of military operations.

(b) Before furnishing any transportation under this section, the Secretary of

Defense shall take from the National Council, Boy Scouts of America, a good and

sufficient bond for the reimbursement to the United States by the National Council, Boy Scouts of America, of the actual costs of transportation furnished under

this section.

SEC. 3. Amounts paid to the United States to reimburse it for expenses incurred under the first section and for the actual cost of transportation furnished

under section 2 shall be credited to the current applicable appropriations or funds

to which such expenses and costs were charged and shall be available for the same

purposes as such appropriations or funds.

SEC. 4. Under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of State, no fee shall be

collected for the application for a passport by, or the issuance of a passport to, any

Boy Scout, Scouter, or official who is certified by the National Council, Boy

Scouts of America, as representing the National Council, Boy Scouts of America,

at the jamboree referred to in the first section of this Act.

Passed the House of Representatives April 16, 1962.

Attest:

RALPH R. ROBERTS, Clerk.
24 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

The CHAIRMAN. A companion bill, S. 2719, was introduced by the

distinguished President pro tempore, Senator Hayden.

It seems to the chairman if we should report this bill, we should

report both of them to the calendar and substitute the House bill for

the Senate bill.

The Department of Defense apparently opposes the provision in the

bill that would authorize reimbursable transportation by the Military

Sea Transportation Service.

The departmental witness on this bill is Mr. Paul Riley, Deputy

Assistant Secretary of Defense for Installations and Logistics.

STATEMENT OF PAUL H. RILEY, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY

OF DEFENSE (INSTALLATIONS AND LOGISTICS)

Mr. RILEY. I am happy to have this opportunity to explain the

Department of Defense objections to making available MSTS transportation services in connection with the World Jamboree of the Boy

Scouts of America when this can be done without interference with

the requirements of military operations. In keeping with this we are

making Army equipment such as tents, blankets, commissary equipment, and so forth, available to the Scouts for their jamboree. We

have also provided transportation for the Scouts on MSTS ships when

operational commitments have permitted. For example, last summer

we carried Scout groups to the Far East, to the Mediterranean, and

to the Caribbean. We expect to be able to continue to carry limited

numbers on routes where scheduled service is available.

Unfortunately, however, MSTS has no scheduled service to Greece.

MSTS service to Europe terminates at Bremerhaven. Last year

MSTS service was available in the Mediterranean as far as Naples,

Italy. This Mediterranean service, however, was terminated last

September.

The expense of scheduling an MSTS ship into Greece to lift the

Boy Scouts and subsequently return them to the United States would

not be competitive with commercial air carriers on a group basis.

As to lift of the boys' equipment for the jamboree, a similar circumstance applies. Again MSTS has no regular service. In the

last 6 months only three MSTS nucleus ships visited Greece and then

in connection with the discharge of ammunition and explosives.

These visits were made at the end of an extended voyage which would

have provided very slow service for routine cargo. Commercial

shipping facilities could provide better service for the small amount

of cargo involved in the Boy Scout Jamboree at a cost roughly equivalent to cost via MSTS ships.

In summary, then, Mr. Chairman, in the past we have been able

to accommodate Boy Scout passengers by sea because they were

traveling over routes on which MSTS ships were not fully utilized and

had appropriate spaces which could be used by the Scouts. As far as

we can reasonably foresee there will be no space available to Greece

in the summer of 1963.

Please be assured, however, that where military commitments

permit we will continue to extend a helping hand to such a fine organization as the Boy Scouts of America.

The CHAIRMAN. We have considerable military personnel in the

Mediterranean, in Greece and Turkey. Are they all carried by commercial ships?
NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS 25

Mr. RILEY. Most of those personnel were carried either on MATS or

by commercial air, some by commercial ship.

The CHAIRMAN. Has any evidence been presented to you on the

number of Boy Scouts who would like to attend this jamboree?

Mr. RILEY. I have no knowledge of that, Mr. Chairman. The bill,

of course, will authorize 500 Scouts and associate members of the

party.

On a cost basis, and not knowing the exact number that will actually

participate, it would be cheaper for this group to go by commercial

air and I was informed as recently as this morning that the national

council is interested and is trying to make arrangements to ship this

group by commercial air carrier.

There is a considerable difference in cost. If we have to break out

an MSTS vessel and send it to Greece, which is not on a scheduled

run, the cost, roughly, considering the number of days involved,

would run around $250,000, versus five planeloads of these Scouts,

which at the current rate would cost about $180,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that $500 a passenger?

Mr. RILEY. That is about $359 per passenger.

The CHAIRMAN. I mean the figure you gave for the ship.

Mr. RILEY. For air? For MSTS it is about $500,000.

The CHAIRMAN. To me that figures at around $500 each, which is

considerably more than it would be by commercial air.

MT. RILEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In the past, did they pay the cost of commercial

carrier?

Mr. RILEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you charge them—$3 or $4 a day?

Mr. RILEY. We just charged them out-of-pocket costs.

The CHAIRMAN. How did you arrive at that?

You have some standards which used to be $3 a day some years

ago, $2.75 perhaps, when I traveled on an old Army transport.

Mr. RILEY. MSTS now operates on domestic funds, and all expenses

are reimbursed by the users. My information here shows that a

one-way rate, the last time this voyage was made, when we carried a

group of Scouts, was $26. That would be just out-of-pocket costs.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you canvassed the idea that one of your

transports which might not be loaded after pulling into Hamburg

might go down into that area? Of course, they would have to go all

the way around through the Bay of Biscay and Portugal and Cadiz,

Spain, and all around that way. But even that would not be as far as

across the Atlantic?

Mr. RILEY. That is right. If the National Scout Council, Mr.

Chairman, desired to go to our nearest port of scheduled route service,

we would be happy, if the space was available, to take the group

that far.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you are not particularly objecting

to the bill, but you think the Boy Scouts could travel much cheaper

going some other way. Is that the upshot of your testimony?

Mr. RILEY. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. How about all this equipment? Would that not

be rather expensive to fly down there by commercial air?

Mr. RILEY. We would hope, Mr. Chairman, that we could pull most

of the equipment from our forces that are already in Europe to reduce
7

26 NOMINATION OF M. CHAMBERS AND MISCELLANEOUS BILLS

the transportation costs. The Department of the Army will handle

this for us and I am reasonably sure this is what they will try to do first.

The CHAIRMAN. We have a considerable number of troops stationed

in Italy, up at Verona. I will not say how many, that would be

classified; and vast warehouses over at Leghorn.

Any questions?

Senator SALTONSTALL. My only question, Mr. Chairman, would be

if the Boy Scouts were willing to ride to Bremerhaven, would it not

be cheaper for them to ride to Bremerhaven with the MATS and then

perhaps hire commercial airplane from Bremerhaven to Greece?

Mr. RILEY. It might be cheaper that way.

Senator SALTONSTALL. And you would be perfectly willing to do

that if they want to?

Mr. RILEY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Smith?

Senator SMITH. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bush?

Senator BUSH. Do these Boy Scouts pay the compensation for this

service?

Mr. RILEY. I believe they do, the national council.

Senator BUSH. It is not designed to cost the Government any

money: is that right?

Mr. RILEY. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Except for wear and tear on equipment.

Senator Cannon?

Senator CANNON. No questions.

(Whereupon, at 11:55, the committee went into executive session.)

(Subsequently, in executive session, the committee voted to report

H.R. 9752, without an amendment, as covered by S. Rept. 1361, and

companion bill S. 2719, amended to conform to H.R. 9752, as covered

by S. Rept. 1362.)

0