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KSU LIBRARIES 

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE

UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGHTY-NINTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

NOMINATIONS OF

DAVID R. BALDWIN, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF COMMERCE

FOR ADMINISTRATION

JOHN W. BLACK, DIRECTOR OF THE U.S. TRAVEL SERVICE

LEROY COLLINS, UNDER SECRETARY OF COMMERCE

JUNE 28, AND JULY 12, 1965

Serial No. 89-33

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U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

52-322 WASHINGTON : 1965
COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE

WARREN G. MAGNUSON, Washington, Chairman

JOHN 0. PASTORE, Rhode Island

A. S. MIKE MONRONEY, Oklahoma

FRANK J. LAUSCHE, Ohio

E. L. BARTLETT, Alaska

VANCE HARTKE, Indiana

GALE W. McGEE, Wyoming

PHILIP A. HART, Michigan

HOWARD W. CANNON, Nevada

DANIEL B. BREWSTER, Maryland

MAURINE B. NEUBERGER, Oregon

ROSS BASS, Tennessee

NORRIS COTTON, New Hampshire

THRUSTON B. MORTON, Kentucky

HUGH SCOTT, Pennsylvania

WINSTON L. PROUTY, Vermont

JAMES B. PEARSON, Kansas

PETER H. DOMINICK, Colorado

GERALD B. GRINSTEIN, Chief Counsel

EDWARD JARRETT, Chief Clerk

JEREMIAH J. KENNEY, Jr., Assistant Chief Counsel

RALPH W. HouToN, Assistant Chief Clerk
CONTENTS

Page

Baldwin, David R., of Pennsylvania, to be Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Administration 33 Statement of Baldwin, David R., nominee-- 34

Letter of Clark, Hon. Joseph S., U.S. Senator from Pennsylvania__ 33 Biographical sketch 33 Black, John W., of Washington, to be Director of the U.S. Travel Service_ _

Statement of—

Black, John W., nominee 15 Jackson, Hon. Henry M., U.S. Senator from Washington 14 Biographical sketch 14 Collins, LeRoy, of Florida, to be Under Secretary of Commerce 

Statement of—

Collins, LeRoy, nominee 3

Holland, Hon. Spessard L., U.S. Senator from Florida 2

Biographical sketch 1

III
.,'
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

MONDAY, JUNE 28, 1965

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE,

Washington, D.0 .

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:20 'a.m., in room 5110,

New Senate Office Building, the Honorable Warren G. Magnuson

(chairman of the committee) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

At our hearing this morning, we will take up the nomination of

the Honorable LeRoy Collins, of Florida, to be Under Secretary of

Commerce, succeeding Franklin D. Roosevelt, Jr.

Governor Collins, as he has continued to be known, has been for the

past year the Director of the Community Relations Service in the

Department of Commerce, which grew out of the Civil Rights Act of

1964.

(The biographical sketch of Mr. Collins follows:)

BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH OF LEROY COLLINS

LeRoy Collins was born March 10,1909, in Tallahassee, Fla. He attended the

public schools in Florida and Cumberland University, Cumberland, Tenn., receiving his LL.B. degree in 1931.

He was admitted to the Florida bar in 1931 and practiced law in Tallahassee

thereafter. From 1934 to 1940, he was a representative in the Florida Legislature

from Leon County, following which he served several terms in the Florida State

senate.

He served as Governor of the State of Florida for the 6-year period 1955-60.

While Governor, he was elected chairman of the National Governors Conference

and the Southern Governors Conference; and he also served as chairman of the

Southern Regional Education Board. In 1961, he was named president of the

National Association of Broadcasters and served in that position until July 1964.

Governor Collins was appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate

in July 1964 to be Director of the Community Relations Service, Department of

Commerce, and is presently serving in this position.

He has also served as Chairman of the National Public Advisory Committee

on Area Redevelopment; a member of the National Advisory Council of the Peace

Corps; a member of the Honor Corps, National Conference of Christians and

Jews; and a member of the Committee on Goals for Higher Education in the

South, 1961-62.

He is a trustee.of Randolph Macon Woman's College, Lynchburg, Va., and a

member of the Board of Governors of the National Cathedral School in

Washington.

Since 1931 he has been a member of the Florida bar, the Arkansas bar, and

the Tennessee bar, and the American Bar Association.

Governor Collins is married to the former Mary Call Darby and they have

four children—LeRoy, Jr., a lieutenant in the U.S. Navy, and daughters Jane,

Mary Call, and Darby.

He maintains his home in Tallahassee, Fla., and also has a Washington residence at 3116 P Street NW.

Staff counsel assigned to this hearing: Gerald B. Grinstein.

1
2 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

The CHAIRMAN. We shall begin with Governor Collins.

We have here our colleague, the distinguished Senator from Florida,

Senator Holland.

Senator Holland, I presume you would like to introduce the nominee

to the committee.

STATEMENT OF HON. SPESSARD L. HOLLAND, 'U.S. SENATOR FROM

THE STATE OF FLORIDA

Senator HOLLAND. Mr. Chairman, I hardly think it is necessary for

me to introduce Governor Collins to the committee. I do want to note

that both Senators from Florida actively supported Governor Collins

for the position in Community Relations Service which he would

vacate by coming to be Under Secretary of the Department of Commerce. We supported him actively and most cordially there and we

do the same thing here.

I want the record to show that my distinguished colleague, Senator

Smathers, is over at the Finance Committee in an executive meeting

on a bill that is of material consideration to our own State of Florida

and, therefore, could not be here. He asked me to speak for himself

as well as for me.

I think it is hardly necessary to remind this committee that Governor

Collins has had a long and distinguished career in public service and

in private business. He was a member of the House of Representatives of the Florida Legislature for several terms, acquitted himself

there as one of its most effective members, then a member of the State

senate, with the same kind of distinguished career.

A distinguished career followed in the Navy of the United States

during World War II, following which he served as Governor and up

to this time is the only 6-year Governor of our State, at least in any

modern times—served 2 years by election of the people to fill out the

term of a deceased Governor, the Honorable Dan McCarty, and then

serving 4 years after election on his own for a 4-year term. His term

there was such as to give him high honors. He was chairman of the

Southern Governors Conference and then chairman of the National

Governors Conference.

Following that, he was tapped by industry to be the head of the

National Association of Broadcasters in radio and TV. I think we

all know that his service there was a distinguished service and from

that, he went when called by the President, to serve in this highly difficult position which he is now completing the first year of service in,

the Community Relations post. I think that Governor Collins has

made such a record of distinguished service as an administrator and as

as a lawmaker and as an administrator in a highly responsible private

position in private enterprise as to fully merit the approval not only

of the Senators and citizens of Florida, but also of this committee

and the confirmation of the Senate. I appear for the two Florida Senators to urge his speedy confirmation.

I shall be glad now to yield to Governor Collins, but I do want the

record to show affirmatively the strong, affirmative support of both

Senators from Florida given to Governor Collins, because we think

he has done a remarkable job and will continue to do so in this new

position of high responsibility.
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 3

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Holland.

Any questions of Senator Holland?

Now, there are two Under Secretaries, one for Transportation and

the other, which has the general title of Under Secretary of Commerce.

Under the provisions of the law, the Under Secretary of Commerce,

of course, serves as Secretary in the absence, in the case of sickness or

such as that, of the Secretary of Commerce, and he serves as principal Deputy for the Secretary of Commerce.

In other words, you are right-hand man of the Secretary of Commerce. This is an agency that has many and diverse responsibilities

with which this committee is quite familiar and we could go into a

great number of things involving your duties down there. But I

think that what the chairman is interested in right now—and I am

sure other members of the committee are too—is your ideas or further

suggestions on the grave responsibility of the Secretary at this particular time on our international balance-of-payments deficits?

STATEMENT OF LEROY COLLINS, NOMINEE

Mr. COLLINS. Mr. Chairman, could I first express appreciation

to Senator Holland for the statement he made?

The CHAIRMAN Yes.

Mr. COLLINS. We left out one thing I would like to add to my

record. While I was a member of the State senate, I served as floor

leader for the Governor's program, a position which I have always 

Senator LAUSCHE. What Governor?

Mr. COLLINS. Spessard L. Holland.

Senator LAUSCHE. This man here?

Mr. COLLINS. This man here. That is why I have such a record

in Florida, because he was such an able Governor, one of whom the

whole State is very proud. I appreciate what he said here.

I think, Mr. Chairman, that you have certainly generalized the

feeling of responsibility of the Under Secretary which I fully share,

so I would no more than say I agree with your whole summation of

that in a general way.

So far as the balance-of-payments problem is concerned, I do not

pretend to have any real professional, intimate knowledge of that.

My work in the Community Relations Service has not given me an

opportunity to have close association with the broader programs

of the Department of Commerce. I am familiar, though, with the

fact that this is a matter of tremendous concern and commanding

the great energies and interest of the Secretary. I feel in association

with the other Cabinet officials who are involved and with the President and with the committees of the Congress, we are making a determined effort to bring this situation in better line with the economic

stability of our Nation. I would certainly expect that as Under

Secretary I should lend the Secretary every possible support that I

can in consummation of the voluntary program that is now underway.

I think this voluntary program is one of a very significant pattern,

because there has been a great deal of pressure, of course, upon the

Government to make more stringent rules and to impose specific

recommendations on the matter of interpretation of the law. But

both the President and the Secretary and the Secretary of the Treasury have all been determined to work this out on the basis of voluntary
4 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

action by American business. They have called upon American business to support such a program. While I cannot discuss the details

of it, I know that in a general way, this voluntary program has proved

and is proving tremendously effective. I feel that the Secretary is

now reasonably assured that the Nation can depend upon the consummation of the voluntary program as a successful means for meeting this emergent need.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you given any thought since you have been

recommended for this position to your relationship or your position—

that is, in the Department of Commerce—with the Export-Import

Bank?

Mr. COLLINS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You are familiar with the fact this is the institution that may or may not give a so-called credit line to American

exporters for sales in various countries throughout the world. And

this committee has been holding hearings in which leading American

exporters have testified that there is an unfavorable aspect to our

export environment at the present time created by the difficulty experienced by American exporters attempting to compete creditwise with

other people in the world who give longer credit and better terms of

credit. I was wondering whether you considered it within the purview of the Department of Commerce to continue our—what we think

is important—involvement with the Commerce Department and the

Export-Import Bank in trying to work out a better credit position for

our American businessmen?

Mr. COLLINS. Well, I know that within the Department of Commerce is the Assistant Secretary for Domestic and International Business, a very fine, able young man, Mr. Trowbridge, who has recently

assumed that responsibility as the Assistant Secretary. I know he is

deeply concerned about this I have heard him discuss it upon occasion. Of course, as Under Secretary, if I could be of assistance to him

in advancing the American position, I would be happy to do so.

The CHAIRMAN. What I am suggesting is that the liaison between

the Export-Import Bank and the Department of Commerce which

has the responsibility policywise to encourage exports, has not been, in

my opinion, as good as it should be. Therefore, it seems to me that

you should give a great deal of consideration to working with the

Export-Import Bank so that credit lines could be extended to a potential American exporter who may be in competition with other nations

in the world even though it may not appear that this is a so-called firstclass risk to a commercial banker. If this is done we will gain a greater

lead in this export field so that our American businessmen could get

into foreign markets. There are many of them.

Mr. COLLINS. Well, your views certainly sound reasonable and

sound, Mr. Chairman. I shall be glad to make an inquiry into

this subject as soon as I have authority and follow up with any recommendations that I feel are appropriate.

The CHAIRMAN. We have reams of testimony by American businessmen that their real problem is not the product that America produces.

It is a fact that some of these people would like to buy that product.

But our exporters cannot give them the same payment terms and the

credit that other countries can and most of the exporters in other countries are directly financed by government. We are not suggesting
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 5

that. But we are suggesting a greater flexibility which can only be

obtained by the Department of Commerce and the Export-Import

Bank getting together and deciding, "Well, look," in effect, "we can

take a chance on this fellow • he has something that will sell and we can

give him a longer creditline." Otherwise, we will continue to be

wiped out of some markets, although we have made some pretty good

progress in the export field over the past few years.

Mr. COLLINS. I shall certainly pass on your views to the Secretary

at the first opportunity, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Knowing you as I do, you have some abilities in

that field of persuasion.

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you very much.

Senator HOLLAND. The chairman is not often guilty of understatement, but he has on this occasion understated the matter.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Now, we have many other facets of the Department of Commerce.

Though as you pointed out, you are coming in there without any

particular experience in the Department. I suspect it is not a great

deal unlike running a great State such as Florida. It is a question

of having the ability to handle many different facets. Apparently,

listening to the two of you, both of you have done very well with the

State of Florida in that respect. So I shall not ask any more questions.

But I think the most important thing you have to think about, other

than the administration down there, is this business of balance-ofpayments deficit and how we will work it out.

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You have the travel agency under you down there.

Now, we have done a pretty good job in closing that travel gap, but

we will never be able to close it in such a way as to make it come out

equal.

I might ask you how the Community Relations Service is coming on?

Mr. COLLINS. I am rather proud of the record that that agency is

making, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think you have left enough people behind

you to keep the record going?

Mr. COLLINS. We have an excellent staff. I think the policy developments and the understanding about what we do in given situations and how we try to extend the maximum of help to the communities that ask, I think these are well established, although of course, they

will be improved in time. I am real proud of the staff and I am

proud of the support that has been given to all of us by the Congress,

by the President, and by the Secretary of Commerce and the other

people in Commerce. I think this agency is proving itself well. It

is proving that the Congress was wise in its original determination

that a service of this kind could add to the public benefit.

The CHAIRMAN. In putting that section in the bill?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, sir. This was done in the Congress, initiated in

the Congress. I hope that we can prove that this was a wise thing

to have done and I think we have. We have gotten an enormous

amount of cooperation from the people of the country, citizens of the

States. We have not spent much of the public funds, just in round

figures, a million dollars a year. But we have, with the sound utilization of that, brought in the help and service of many, many, many

52-322-65 2
6 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

hundreds of people all over this country on a voluntary basis. I think

we have a good record to support our efforts.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have anything to suggest to the committee

about the area redevelopment program which will be under your

jurisdiction?

Mr. COLLINS. No, sir. I understand that there is a new law that

the Senate has approved which will replace the old ARA and provide

a broader opportunity for service to the economically depressed or

especially needful sections of the country, wherever they may be.

This has now been approved by the House committee but is pending

House action at the present time. I think this is a very significant

piece of legislation that is going to require very sound administration. The Secretary has already mentioned to me the fact that he is

hopeful that I can be of some special help in the development of that

program if, as, and when the Congress finally approves it.

The

program, 

Now, the President of the United States and a

great many members of this committee have suggested, in the field

of foreign trade, the further exploration of the possibility of trade,

nonstrategic trade—East-West trade, we call it in the broad term—

with Russia and the satellite countries. Have you any ideas on that?

Mr. COLLINS. No sir, I do not know enough about that to respond.

The CHAIRMAN. 

No,

you have any basic objection to the expansion

of East-West trade with satellite countries in Europe?

Mr. COLLINS. I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. On nonstrategic items?

Mr. COLLINS. I do not. I would assume, of course, in any situation

of that kind—

The CHAIRMAN. I mean a basic philosophic objection; let us put it

that way.

Mr. COLLINS. No, sir, I do not. I think any of these situations will

have to be strategically developed with the right kind of consultation

with all the departments of the Government that would be concerned

with the ultimate effect of decisions of that kind.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you subscribe to the idea that trade is probably one of the best means of communication with peoples in the

world whether or not ideological or political philosophies clash?

Mr. COLLINS. In a general sense, I do. I think trade is a form of

communication with people that is very helpful and should be encouraged and should be fostered. In any given situation, of course,

where you have a potential enemy that you may be involved with,

other considerations have to be taken into account in dealing with

that specific matter.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, what you suggest is that there may

be political considerations that override the possibility of trade with

a given country or given peoples, but that generally speaking, this is

a pretty good way to get along in the world—is that it?

Mr. Comings. Yes, sir, I believe that strongly. I believe the general

rule should be the encouragement of the freest possible trade and that

any exceptions to that should be developed based upon individual

consideration of individual circumstances which would warrant a

variance from the general rule.

The CHAIRMAN. And I suspect that if anyone thinks about this

matter in a little depth, probably in the time that you may be down

there or the rest of us here he will conclude that we are going to be
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 7

faced with that same proposition with the one-third of the world's

population which now live behind another curtain. Sooner or later

it will come about, after some political considerations, we hope, are

taken care of. I am speaking of the Orient.

Mr. COLLINS. Well, I do not think I have any argument to make

with you about that. I come back to the answer I gave to the preceding question and say that generally speaking, I think we should

be free to trade with anybody, anywhere, at any time, but if special

circumstances require a different course of conduct in consideration of

our political situation or military situation, that should be passed

upon and judged based upon the exceptional circumstances.

The CHAIRMAN. It has to be all taken together, the political situation and the others?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you agree, however, with the chairman, and

I speak very generally, that the greatest diplomat that we have in

the world is an American product that will give somebody else a better

way of life?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, I do. And I think that is especially true when

you take into account the fact that two-thirds of the people are in such

great need all over the world. Two-thirds-2 billion—are living on

such a minimal basis and the hopes and aspirations that they have for

the future are so closely related to the improvement of the economic

situation, that I think that fortifies precisely the point that you make.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no further questions.

Senator Monroney ?

Senator MONRONEY. Mr. Chairman, I want to express my appreciation to Governor Collins for his patriotic willingness to serve in whatever capacity the President wants. I recollect the rather heated hearings we had not so very long ago in this committee room when Governor Collins gave up the very fine position as President of the National Association of Broadcasters to take over the hot spot in the civil rights situation namely, the Community Relations Service position. He did a fine job in keeping community relations in good

rapport, despite the tempers and sometimes the demonstrations that

were raging throughout the country. Whatever task the President

has placed him in, he has done a fine job.

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Senator.

I wonder, since you come from a State that has made fortunes out

of tourism, if you feel there is anything we can do to promote packaged tours and things of that kind, such as is done in domestic tourist

trade, to help eliminate the great adverse flow in our travel expenditures abroad? Europeans love to travel on an all-expense touir

throughout Europe. They would like to travel across the ocean to

see the United States, but they fear our high prices. If we could

encourage reverse tourism on an all-expense paid tour basis, I think

we might alleviate this imbalance. I would hope, as you become Under Secretary of Commerce, you would be able to help stimulate some

of these programs that may give a better yield than those we have

already had from our tourism.

Mr. COLLINS. Senator, as you know, the U.S. Travel Service was

established in 1961 in the Department of Commerce. That agency has

been responsible to do much of what you are speaking about. I do not

know the detail of the progress made, but I did see some indication
8 _BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

that since its establishment, our foreign tourists have increased by

about 100 percent, which is perhaps significant progress.

Senator MONRONEY. It is coming up from a very low base, of

course. One hundred percent does not represent a vast increase of

bodies on our airlines or on competitive foreign airlines. The thing

to do is get these people over here and get them to see our country

and the beauties that America has to offer the rest of the world.

Mr. CoLLINs. I would certainly hope that what experience this

Service has had would serve as a base for a much-expanded effort in

that area. I agree with you completely it is tremendously important

to our country.

The CHAIRMAN. Would the Senator yield for just a minute there?

Senator MONRONEY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. One of the big problems you will face with the

Travel Service is to dispel the worldwide impression that it is too

expensive to travel in the United States. Of course, it is not. And

once it is dispelled, you will find just literally thousands of people

who would like to come to these United States. This is the purpose

of this committee in passing that travel bill.

Mr. CorLim. Yes.

Senator MONRONEY. Which is also the purpose of my questioning

him about the all-expense paid package tours. I do not believe we

have yet offered to the Europeans the same type of service that our

travel agencies here offer to Americans going the other way. Certainly all we can pick up in that field is a very great help in relieving

the dollar drain that is going on.

Do you favor missions abroad by our businessmen to stimulate trade

deals and trade fairs?

Mr. COLLINS. Do I favor what? I did not understand you.

Senator MONRONEY. Businessmen delegations going abroad to stimulate our search for business in a far off field? Missions.

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, sir indeed, I think these kinds of missions can

prove to be very helpful, have proved so in the past. They can prove

to be of greater benefit beyond what has developed in the past.

Senator MONRONEY. We appreciate that and we hope we will have

more of that, particularly represented at these various trade fairs

and places abroad where products are displayed all around the world.

We like to be in competition and have our wares displayed in these

same places. If funds are not sufficient to spur this on, I hope you

will give attention to that feature.

Mr. COLLINS. I shall be happy to do so.

Senator MONRONEY. That is all I have.

Senator PEARSON. Governor, I had a couple of questions, but they

have already been covered. I just would like to make this one observation, and you may forget it or keep it, as your judgment dictates.

But I have been noticing in the papers recently and been a little bit

concerned about the situation where we have Secretaries of State

making statements about matters of military and defense, have Secretaries of Defense and spokesmen making statements concerning matters of foreign policy. I know that I have been somewhat concerned

because I thought every once in a while matters of agriculture—and

I come from Kansas—were settled in the halls 'Of the Secretary of

State rather than the Department of Agriculture. I appreciate that

problems today are so complex that you just do not get in one channel
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 9

and solve them down at the State Department level or at the Defense

Department level. But where there is primary jurisdiction and where

there is the original responsibility within a department of the Government, I would hope that they would continue to have that leadership. I have nothing in mind with relation to the Department of

Commerce and I know you must consult and would consult with all

other appropriate agencies for Government. But whether it is a

legitimate concern or not, I just would hope that as Under Secretary,

you are really going to be the workhorse up there. I would be very

comfortable if I thought the Commerce Department is running the

Commerce Department's business.

As I said, I had a question or two about East-West trade, but I

think you have covered that very well. I want to say to you that I

think the President has made a wise nomination.

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, sir.

Senator PEARSON. I am sure you will serve the country well.

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate your views in

regard to that responsibility for individual departments looking at

the business that is properly theirs. I hope my service will reflect that.

I really think that we have in Secretary Connor an unusually capable,

intelligent, dedicated Secretary of Commerce. I do not say this just

as a matter of trying to cater to the boss. My observation has been

that he has all these qualifications and is really going to make this

country a very outstanding Secretary of Commerce.

My dedication, of course, will be to assist him in whatever ways he

feels I can best assist him. There is one thing about this job. The

statute does not outline the duties about it. I think the only thing

the statute says is that the Under Secretary should be available to

pinchhit for the Secretary in the event of his unavailability. The

responsibility of this job as I understand it is to be the Secretary's

general assistant, to do those things and do them in a manner that

enables him and this Department to render a maximum of service

to the American people in advancing the economic welfare of this

Nation. He will have my full cooperation and my complete energies

to do the best possible job I can.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not want to interrupt with a sour note, but

if you could prevail upon your former employers to come up here

someday and figure out how they could get communications in this

room, we would be very happy. We have tried the networks, we

have tried the space agency, we have tried FCC, we have tried everybody, but it does not work.

Mr. COLLINS. I shall try to help on that.

The 'CHAIRMAN. The Senator from Nevada.

Senator CANNON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not have anything to add. I think the Governor comes to us with a very outstanding background and I am sure he will devote his best energies

to all of the problems that his Department is necessarily concerned

with. I think the questioning has been very thoroughly covered by

my predecessors here.

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Neuberger?

Senator NEUBERGER. I feel the same. It is welcome to have the

Governor here.
10 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

I want only to comment that in this morning's New York Times

fashion page there is a story on how the French shops cater to us

A_mericans with the English translators. I think probably foreigners

shopping in New York might be able to find somebody to help them

if they did not speak English, but in Portland, Oreg., you would

have to send out a dragnet to bring in somebody to help a Frenchman

buy something in the shops. That is one of the grave troubles we

have in this country, the lack of language and interpretation. It is

not necessarily in your field, I know, but somebody should see to it.

Mr. COLLINS. Somehow I think that is very much in my field. I

think a person from Florida should have special qualifications to carry

that idea forward, because you cannot go into a Miami shop without

finding somebody who speaks Spanish. Perhaps we should draw on

it to find somebody with expertise.

Senator NEUBERGER. In Portland, you can find somebody who will

speak Japanese or Chinese, but no French.

The CHAIRMAN. The Senator from Alaska?

Senator BARTLETT. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. The Senator from Colorado?

Senator DOMINICK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Governor Collins, in this last bill on the Public Works and Economic Acceleration Act or whatever it is, do you have any preconceived idea of the administrative personnel that will be needed to

operate that?

Mr. COLLINS. No, sir, Senator. I am not familiar with that. I

just understand the program in its vast outlines. I have not thought

in terms of any personnel involved.

Senator DOMINICK. Well, the bill did not set up any particular

administrative authorization in it but somewhere along the line it said,

or someone testified that they will need at least 20 supergrades and

anything less than that would be considered disastrous to the program.

How would you integrate 20 additional supergrades ? Would you

have any problem on that and if so, how many more people would you

have to get if you did take 20?

Mr. COLLINS. I am sorry, Senator, that I cannot respond to that in

any definitive way. I just do not know. I thought, though, that the

bill did provide for the creation of an additional Assistant Secretary

of Commerce, who would be primarily in charge of the administration

of that program, and also an administrator. I would assume that

the leadership would come from there primarily, for the organization

of whatever personnel authorizations the bill allowed.

Senator DOMINICK. Do you happen to know in the Commerce Department how many lower grades you have to have for each supergrade?

Mr. COLLINS. No, sir,I am not a specialist on that.

Senator DomiNicx. Governor, I was a little concerned over your

answer to the chairman on this East-West trade deal, in which you

said you have no basic philosophy—philosophical objection—to trading regardless of country. Would this include Cuba and Red China?

Mr. COLLINS. Well, I think, in certainly those two cases, they would

fall within the exceptions to the general rule. I said I thought we

ought to have a general rule of free trade with everybody. Then if

the individual circumstances are such as to provide a basis for the

exception, that exception should be applied. In the application of
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 11

that exception, the judgment of many departments should become

involved, like the State Department dealing with the political relationships between our country and the other country involved, as well

as the Department of Defense, which also has a deep concern in this.

Senator DOMINICK. Do you feel that really, a policy on this should

be established by Congress?

Mr. CouaNs. I think this whole policy, these broad outlines, should

be established by Congress.

Senator DOMINICK. You would not, then, propose that the Commerce Department should change its rules and regulations on export

licensing without having some congressional authorization first?

Mr. COLLINS. Senator, I am not familiar with what these rules are

or what the present authority that the Congress has granted is that

would give flexibility to any such change, so it is very difficult for me

to respond. I regret that. I would be happy to have your own views

and I would be happy to go into any matter that you suggest and

give you my own views after being better informed.

Senator DO1VTINICK. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think the Governor did suggest that what

we were talking about is not necessarily an open door, but that all of

these problems have to be decided within the purview of what is the

political situation at the time, and what is in the national interest at

the time. I think that he did suggest that philosophically, he believes

in trade where it is desirable in the best interests of the country.

Would that be a fair way to state it?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Governor, there is one other thing that

plagues this committee, has for years, in this same field. You will

probably remember that the commercial attaches throughout the world

were under the Department of Commerce. Then, after World War

II and during the war, what few we may have had in various places in

the world were taken over by the Department of State, for obvious

reasons.

We have been for years trying to divorce the commercial attaches,

not necessarily from political considerations but have them still working for the Department of Commerce. Finally, there was an interagency agreement worked out by Secretary Hodges and Secretary

Rusk providing that the Department of Commerce would in effect

train the commercial attaches: their background would be commerce.

And the State Department would do their housekeeping and assign

them to locations where the Department of Commerce thought they

could do the best job. I am hoping that you will take another look at

that interagency agreement so that they will not drift back again

under the canopy of the State Department, because they do have a

separate, different job to do, and a very important job, throughout the

world.

Mr. COLLINS. I shall be glad to, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, one other thing. You have under your jurisdiction—you and Secretary Connor—what is next to the Defense

Department, the biggest business in the world, namely, the Bureau of

Public Roads. The Bureau of Public Roads has been sort of off to

the side. It has had some autonomy that sometimes some of us think

they have taken unto themselves and they run their show a little bit
12 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

as if they do not belong to the Department of Commerce, and they do.

The Bureau of Public Roads was established to build the best possible

roads in these United States within the statutory criteria. We are

tax collectors, actually we collect the taxes, give it back to the States,

as you ex-Governors well know, under a formula. But when it comes

to policy, the Bureau of Public Roads is still subject to the Department

of Commerce, and sometimes they forget that—whether deliberately

or because they are so busy, I do not know. But I am hopeful that

you will take the reins and assume the responsibility that will be yours

and the Secretary's in handling the policy of the Bureau of Public

Roads. It is the biggest business in the United States next to the Defense Department.

Mr. COLLINS. Mr. Chairman, I shall certainly pass on your concern

about that to the Secretary. All of us, of course, will be seeking to

help. But I would like to add that the President has appointed as

Under Secretary of Transportation an extraordinarily able, fine man,

in Alan Boyd. He has gone to work and he is working assiduously.

I think he is going to find the answers to many problems that we have 

had, not only in this agency to which you are referring, but also to the

Maritime Administration and other agencies under his responsibility.

You know, of course, in that other area, the complexities and difficulties are very great, too. But I think we are going to get a great

job from Alan Boyd.

The CHAIRMAN. Your experience as Governor should give us a background on this matter that is invaluable. They need some help and

guidance occasionally.

Senator HOLLAND. I think the record ought to show that Governor

Collins as Governor saw the capacity of Alan Boyd and named him to

the Public Utilities 'Commission of our State. They will work together as a fine team over in the Department of Commerce.

Mr. COLLINS. We do not want it to sound like any Florida takeover,

though, Mr. Chairman.

'The CHAIRMAN. I have no further questions unless somebody on the

committee does.

Thank you very much.

Senator HOLLAND. Mr. Chairman, I thank you and all the members

of this committee.

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you very much gentlemen.
NOMINATION OF JOHN W. BLACK TO BE DIRECTOR

OF THE U.S. TRAVEL SERVICE

MONDAY, JULY 12, 1965

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE,

Washington, D .0 .

The committee met at 10:15 a.m., in room 5110, New Senate Office

Building, the Honorable Warren G. Magnuson (chairman of the committee) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

In our hearing this morning we will take up four nominations by

the President. The first two are for positions in the Commerce Department: No. 1, John W. Black, from Washington State and formerly

a member of the staff of this committee to be Director of the U.S.

Travel Service, succeeding Voit Gilmore, resigned.

John has served as Deputy Director of the Travel Service from its

inception and, while with this committee, worked on the legislation

creating the Travel Service, the International Travel Act of 1961.

No. 2, David R. Baldwin, of Pennsylvania, to be Assistant Secretary

for Administration, succeeding Herbert W. Klotz resigned. Mr.

Baldwin has been serving since April of this year as 

Klotz,

Assistant

Secretary for Administration.

The next two nominees are reappointments to the Federal Maritime

Commission its Chairman, Admiral John Harllee, and Commissioner

James V. Day from Maine. Both Admiral Harllee and Commissioner Day continue to serve pursuant to legislation very recently reported by this committee and signed by the President.

It should be noted that that measure, now Public Law 89-56, also

provided for an extension of terms for members of the Commission

from 4 years to 5. In order to avoid a recurrence of what happened

this year, when two terms expired at the same time, Admiral Harllee

has been appointed to a term of 5 years and Commissioner Day to a

term of 4 years.

All four nominees have submitted to the committee financial statements and biographical summaries. These financial statements will,

in accordance with usual practice, be placed in our committee files

where they may be seen by the public or examined by anyone that

wishes.

Thank you.

Now, Senator Jackson is here and he would like to make a short

statement on behalf of John Black, who comes from the State of

Washington, and the chairman would like to second what Senator

Jackson has to say.

13

52-322-65 3
14 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

STATEMENT OF HON. HENRY M. JACKSON, U.S. SENATOR FROM

THE STATE OF WASHINGTON

Senator JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, I am very happy to present John

W. Black to be the Director of the U.S. Travel Service. Mr. Black

was born in Spokane, he grew up in Seattle, he graduated, after having served in the Navy during World War II, graduated from the

University of Washington in 1947 with a bachelor of arts degree. He

then received his master's degree in international affairs from Columbia University in 1949.

He entered into the Foreign Service in 1949 and served in the Department of State here in Washington, D.C. and then, until 1955, he

served as a member of the Foreign Service abroad.

Then as the chairman knows, from 1955 until 1961, he was on the

staff of this committee. Then, in 1959, he received his juris doctor degree from George Washington University Law School. And he has

been the Deputy Director of the Travel Service since its inception in

1961.

I have a sneaking suspicion he had something to do with the drafting of the legislation setting up ,the Travel Service, which the distinguished chairman authored.

He is exceptionally well-qualified for this position. He is a career

Government employee and comes with the finest of credentials.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Jackson.

Any questions of Senator Jackson?

Senator BARI'LETT. Do you have any fear he is overeducated?

Senator JACKSON. I am sure that was balanced out during his 6

years of service with this committee.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, John, will you come up here. We will

be glad to hear from you.

(Mr. Black's biographical sketch follows:)

BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH OF JOHN W. BLACK

John W. Black, 39, an attorney-economist, was born in Spokane, Wash., and

received his secondary schooling in Seattle. He has had extensive training and

experience in international affairs.

Mr. Black entered Government service in 1949 as a desk officer intern in the

Department of State, where his work involved political and economic relations

with Great Britain and Ireland.

From 1950 to 1955 he held various posts in the U.S. Foreign Service and was,

successively, Kreis Resident Officer for Tauberbischofsheim under the U.S. High

Commissioner for Germany, Vice Consul at the Munich Consulate General, and

Second Secretary and Administrative Officer at the U.S. Embassy in Port-auPrince, Haiti.

Mr. Black is a graduate of the University of Washington, where he received

a bachelor of arts degree in 1947. He also attended the University of Colorado

and received his master of international affairs degree in 1949 at Columbia

University. In 1959 he received his juris doctor degree from the George Washington University Law School.

Mr. Black enlisted in the U.S. Navy in 1943 and was commissioned as an ensign

in 1945. He was assigned to the aircraft carrier U.S.S. Siboney as combat information center officer and later as division officer in the Southwest Pacific

before he was honorably discharged in 1946.

Mr. Black has been closely associated with the travel promotion program from

the beginning. As a member of the Senate Commerce Committee staff (1955-61),

he worked on aviation, maritime and foreign trade legislation and helped draft

the International Travel Act of 1961. The Travel Act, signed by the President

on June 29, 1901, established the USTS in the Department of Commerce.
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 15

After serving several months as a Special Assistant to the Secretary of Commerce, he was named Deputy Director of the Travel Service in November 1961,

and Acting Director on May 1, 1964.

Mr. Black is a member of the District of Columbia Bar and of the American

Bar Association. He is married to the former Iryne Codon of Los Angeles and

resides with his wife and three children at 7025 31st Street NW., Washington,

D.C.

STATEMENT OF JOHN W. BLACK, NOMINEE

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair only wants to point out that, other than

what my colleague pointed out., Mr. Black has been closely associated

with the whole travel promotion program from the beginning, and

he was a member of this committee's staff from 1955 to 1961, and he

worked particularly on aviation, maritime, and foreign trade legislation, and helped the chairman draft the bill which established the

U.S. 'Travel Service in 1961. So he comes to this position after having served down there as the deputy to Mr. Gilmore with a great deal

of legislative and actual experience in this very important field.

Do you have any statement you would like to give the committee,

or would you just like to open it up for questions?

Mr. BLACK. No, sir, I would just be prepared for questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, the chairman and the committee, of course,

are deeply interested in this legislation

'

because we did sponsor it.

And for the record, the real reason that the U.S. Travel Service was

set up was that this committee, in holding hearings on the balance-ofpayments deficits, found I think somewhat to the amazement of many

of us on the committee, way back in 1960, that one of the real problems

in the balance-Of-payment deficits came from the fact that Americans

traveling abroad spent anywhere from $1.2 billion

'

or $1.5 billion—

you will give us the figures for this last year—in traveling abroad,

whereas foreign travelers in the United States spent anywhere from

$250 million to $300 million maybe, and sometimes less.

So that the balance-of-payment deficits, over a third of it in some

cases, in some years, has been the result of the outflow of gold from

this particular problem.

So we drew up the legislation in hopes that we could encourage

more foreign people to travel in the United States. We knew that

it would never—I don't suppose it will quite ever, in the very near

future—would ever exceed the amount of money that Americans spend

abroad, but it would do something to close the gap.

And it had a lot of other advantages, intangible advantages. Foreigners traveling in the United States get to know us better, have

understanding. But our real problem has been over the years to disspel an almost universal conception, throughout the world, that it

is too costly to travel in the United States, which is not true.

Then we had some problems with immigration, which were partially solved, simplifying the procedures allowing foreigners to get

passports and visas to come to the United States for tourist purposes.

Francis Knight was very helpful in that matter. As a result, we

have made some progress in this field. And the amount of the appropriation has not been as adequate as the chairman would like, or the

committee, I think, would like, over the years. But we hope to

remedy that.

We have found, for instance, that many, many States in the Union

appropriate more money to encourage travel within their States than
16 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

the whole U.S. Government did. We found that all other countries

in the world were doing much more, particularly in ratio to their national budgets—way above the peicentage that we were using. For

instance, Great Britain and France, Italy, Germany, and eastern

European countries set aside a certain percentage of their budget and

the ratio they set aside is dependent upon the amount of money used

in travel in their country for promotional features.

So this is the background of this particular U.S. travel agency,

which was set up under the Department of Commerce. So I wanted

to just for the record, John, ask these questions:

How much has travel by foreign tourists increased since mid-1961,

when the agency got started?

Mr. BLACK. Well, Mr. Chairman, we are talking now about oversea

visitors, not counting Canada and Mexico, because you have bordercrosser problems in Canada and Mexico. So, just in terms of visitors

from every other country, the increase since 1961 has been 86.3 percent.

The CHAIRMAN. Have the other countries experienced similar increases in their tourist travel?

Mr. BLACK. No, sir. This is the thing that encourages us the most,

because whereas last year we had a 31 percent increase in these visitors, our competitors, like Canada, Mexico, the British, Australia,

and so forth, were showing between 10 and 12 percent increases from

the same countries. So we feel our share of the market is expanding.

The CHAIRMAN. What role have the foreign tourists played in the

overall balance-of-payment situation?

Mr. BLACK. Well, last year I think we can be very happy that

the total travel gap went down. It had been $1.6 billion, actually

$1,635 million in 1963; last year it was $1,606 million. So this is an

interesting development and it encourages us.

A lot of the reason for this is the fact that we did have this tremendous increase in oversea visitors last year.

The CHAIRMAN. How many travel offices do you now have outside

the United States?

Mr. BLACK. We have nine—actually seven downstairs public information offices. Then we have two other posts where we have

a man in the embassy or consulate, that serves as a trade contact

man.

So we have nine posts altogether.

The CHAIRMAN. Where are the seven?

Mr. BLACK. London, Paris, Frankfurt, Rome, Mexico City, Tokyo

and Sydney, Australia.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any plans to add to those in the

future, immediate future?

Mr. BLACK. Well, this fiscal year, depending upon our Senate appropriations and the final appropriations report, we hope to establish embassy contact people in Stockholm, to cover Scandinavia,

and Amsterdam to cover the Benelux countries.

We have been trying to get in there for some years and we hope

we can this fiscal year.

The ClIAIRMAN. How much did the House put in the bill?

Mr. BLACK. $3 million.

The CHAIRMAN. That was the same as last year?

Mr. BLACK. That is right.
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 17

The CHAIRMAN. And the budget amount was 

Mr. BLACK. We asked for $3.5 million.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, what services do you provide for the potential tourists to the United States in these offices?

Mr. BLACK. Well, we have a fairly good range of information

material that we give to the potential traveler when he comes into

our office. We have a range of booklets and brochures that we publish and then we try more and more to get information that the

States, cities, convention bureaus and so forth publish into our offices.

We hope within another 2 or 3 years most of our material will be

things that are published by the cities and States, rather than by

the Federal Government.

More and more of these materials are coming in foreign languages.

In fact, just 2 days ago I got a sample of brochures from Seattle, the

first ones, in three or four foreign languages, which is very

encouraging.

Then, once the visitor gets here, we have what we call the visitor

service program, which, working with communities and working with

private industry, we try to show more hospitality for the foreign

visitor here. We have an "Americans at Home" program, for example, where we have worked with 48 different communities to set

up a procedure whereby the ordinary traveler can visit in an American home for 2 or 3 hours as a guest in the home. And such things

as that.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the situation; has it been working even

better in the people making application for tourist visas?

Mr. BLACK. Yes. As you recall, back in 1961 and 1962 the Administration proposed to abolish the visa on a reciprocal basis, and the

House didn't want to go that far then. But as a result of the introduction of this legislation, we did come to an agreement whereby

a foreigner can get a visa by post. He doesn't have to go into the

embassy or consulate now and make a personal appearance.

The CHAIRMAN. And be asked a lot of questions that are irrelevant?

Mr. BLACK. That's right. That situation is much improved.

The CHAIRMAN. It used to be almost as hard to get into the

United States as it was to break into jail for a while. But that

situation has cleared up with safeguards, is that correct?

Mr. BLACK. Yes. It is working fine.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, what cooperation do you have; how do

you work with the States? Many States, I think pretty near every

State in the Union, has a tourist promotion bureau. How do you

work with them?

Mr. BLACK. Well, back in the beginning we asked the Governor

of each State to appoint a liaison officer, an official contact man with

USTS, so we have 55, one for each State and one for the District,

Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Samoa, Guam. And all of the material

we get from the States and cities, special promotions we do for the

States and so forth, is channeled through this liaison officer.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any meetings with these State

liaison people? I suppose that there are travel agency conventions

and transportation conventions and all this?
18 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

Mr. BLACK. Yes, we see them at the travel agents meetings. But

the principal place for meeting them is the National Association

of Travel Organizations Convention. They belong to NATO—the

other NATO—and at their annual convention most of our tourist

promotion people in the States are in attendance at the NATO meetings and we usually have about a day at each of these conventions

where we get together with them.

The CHAIRMAN. For the record, what are the transportation people

doing about encouraging foreign travel in the way of block fares

or round trips, or things of that nature?

Mr. BLACK. Well, this is the brightest part of the whole picture,

I think, Mr. Chairman. Beginning back in 1961, when the bus lines—

Greyhound and Trailways—introduced the 99-day for $99 pass.

The CHAIRMAN. The so-called 3-month ticket?

Mr. BLACK. That's right.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, the buslines have done that.

Mr. BLACK. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. And the local transport airlines have done that.

What about the railroads? Are they still lagging behind?

Mr. BLACK. Well, a little bit, I would say. But even they have

done something. They have made a 15-percent discount on coach

tickets for foreign visitors.

The CHAIRMAN. But they don't have a monthly ticket or anything?

Mr. BLACK. No, no flat rate.

The CHAIRMAN. Isn't that customary in Europe, to have a flat rate

on railroads?

Mr. BLACK. It is, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. For their tourists?

Mr. BLACK. That is right, for people coming from abroad to Europe,

they have the pass which is good for 30 days.

The CHAIRMAN. The buslines have it here, and the local transport

airlines have it. Have the trunklines made any effort along this line?

Mr. BLACK. Yes, just in the last 6 weeks. We are most encouraged.

Beginning with Delta, which has offered now a 30-day flat rate pass

for $250, this has just been approved by the Board. Then came along

Braniff with another 30-day pass for $150. As far as I know, the

Board has not yet approved this fare, but this is quite a breakthrough.

Continental has come through in the last 2 or 3 weeks with the same

kind of plan as Delta.

I think with those three trunks we will see the other major trunks

coming in with a promotional fare for foreigners.

The CHAIRMAN. And the railroads are showing a little sign of life

in this ?

Mr. BLACK. Well, they have. They could do a little more, I

think. We are happy with what they have done, however.

The CHAIRMAN. Whatever they charge per month, it is what they

call velvet, because they have a lot of empty seats on those coach

trains.

Mr. BLACK. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. But they have expressed some interest in this?

Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. One last question.

What is the size of your staff at the moment?
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 19

Mr. BLACK. We have 76 people on the payroll at the moment. That

is worldwide and it includes foreign nationals. This compares with

some of our competitors. I know the British have 382, the Canadians

about 200, Mexicans are up in the 200's. We have a very small staff,

but frankly, we like it that way. I think a national tourist office has

to be a catalyst; it can't do the whole job.

If we had a huge staff, I think we would start thinking we could

do the whole job and that would be disastrous.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Senator Cotton?

Senator COTTON. I merely ask you this to give you the opportunity

to refute it, which I know you can do so well. In fact, the chairman

touched on it.

I was a cosponsor of the chairman's bill that created this travel

service.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it ended up the whole committee finally

cosponsored it.

Senator CorrTox. Yes. I find whenever I try to crowd in and get,

a little credit on someone else's bill, I never get any credit—but I always share any blame that is attached. So I stopped that business.

But I was in Europe for a very brief and inexpensive trip, not at

the expense of this committee, and I visited two of your installations

there and I was very much impressed. But what surprised me was

that in talking with one of the career staff at the American Embassy,

he proceeded to turn up his nose and jeer somewhat at this bill that

this committee sponsored and said there was nothing so ridiculous

as to spend good taxpayer's dollars interesting people abroad in coming to the United States, because it had been his experience over the

years that everybody abroad, from taxi drivers up to the upper

echelons, that their greatest ambition was to visit the United States

anyway. It was spontaneous as the air they breathe. He said there

was no need of spending money to encourage or to lure them over here.

Now, I didn't take much stock in that, particularly in view of your

achievements. But I merely raise that because as a matter of record I

would like to have you address yourself to that comment.

Mr. BLACK. Thank you, Senator. I am glad you did raise it,

because it is a good question.

We are different from most other countries. Little countries like

Malta or Barbados, or someplace that no one ever heard of, they

have to interest people in making a trip. We don't have to do that.

What the man in the Embassy said is quite true; most people want

to come to the United States. But what we are trying to do is not

interest them. in a trip here, but tell them how easy it is to get here,

how cheap it is, tell them how to see the country, show them the regions they should see. That is the kind of thing we are trying to do,

not create the basic interest in coming. That is there. But it is capitalizing on that interest.

The point the chairman made about everybody thinks it is too

expensive. They do. We are trying to show them it is not that expensive. They can make a trip; they can make it this year. We talk

about the feeder-lines fares and so forth. Most people don't know

about this overseas. They don't know how cheap it is. So that is

what we are trying to do.
20 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

Senator COTTON. I thank you. I realized that fully, but I did want

you to nail that one to the mast while you had the chance.

Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Monroney ?

Senator MONRONEY. Mr. Chairman, I want to compliment Mr. Black

and his coworkers on that 86.3-percent increase over the life of the

agency. I think that is a very spectacular proof that people, if encouraged, will help us out on this two-way traffic, because they are

anxious to come to the United States.

Only one point I would like to hear a little bit more about is the

very successful all-expense tours that run from the United States to

Europe or to the Far East, which are able to take a passenger and

guarantee that everything will be covered, including tips, from the

time he leaves until he returns, excepting for shopping and entertainment.

I wonder if there is any trend that way in the United States, where

we could offer an all-inclusive package tour, all-expense package 2-

week tour, to visitors who would desire to come here?

Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir.

Senator, there are more and more package tour arrangements.

There are more being offered all of the time. I knew you were interested in this question, from your colloquy with our Under Secretary, and over the weekend I put together some actual offerings. I

have them here.

You might be interested in seeing them. For example, in Germany,

just last year we have—in the office we picked up examples of 90

separate package tour offerings of tours to the United States to specialinterest groups, professional groups, industrial groups, and 37 separate package tour offerings for the general public. That is just from

Germany.

You will find in other European countries there is more and more

of this being done. We could use even more, there is no question about

that. But we try to encourage these package tours through the

use of what we call our shell folder. We print this brochure up, leaving the inside blank, where the individual agent can put his own

package in there. Here is an example from Italy. And we distribute

these for the purpose of getting more and more agents to put together

packages.

So we think the situation is good now, but it could improve.

Senator MoNnoNEy. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cotton has another question.

Senator COTTON. One question I forgot which I wanted to raise.

I was interested to read in one of the magazines recently that in

France, perhaps because of the temporary, we hope, chilly attitude of

the French Government, that French organizations were offering

prizes to their own people giving them to those who have shown

courtesy and kindness to American tourists. I assume that it isn't

necessary for you people to do anything about similar work in this

country, with our chambers of commerce and our travel bureaus. But

I just wanted to raise the question to see if in your relations with local

organizations in this country, if you have any policy about encouraging them to go out of their way to make foreign visitors welcome?

Mr. BLACK. Yes, we do, sir. We do as much as we can with the

staff that we have. Working primarily with industry associations,
BALDWLN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 21

like the American Hotel Association, encouraging them to do more in the way of language facilities, hospitality to foreign guests.

Restaurants, we work with the restaurant association to get more multilingual menus. It is not an easy job. You have to work with a

lot of people. And many people in the service end of the travel in- dustry are pretty independent. You can't tell them how to be polite.

But we do what we can.

The French system is very interesting. I was there about 6 weeks

ago. They give you a little coupon book they call smile checks, and if somebody smiles at you, you hand them a smile check and whoever collects the most smile checks at the end of the year gets a free trip to Algeria or something. I don't think that would work in this country.

The CHAIRMAN. It might be a good idea up here on the Hill, though.

Senator CorroN. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Morton?

Senator MORTON. There was a movie recently shown—I think it was

the Department of Interior—under the auspices of the Department

of Interior, showing or pointing out tourist attractions in this country. I think it was primarily addressed to the program of "See

America First."

Are you familiar with this at all? This was not in your agency?

Mr. BLACK. We do have a movie of the national parks that we have

just put together within the past month or 6 weeks, which has been

shown on television. I am not sure it is the same movie. I know

Interior does have a lot of movies about the parks and so forth.

Senator MORTON. The only point about this particular movie was

that except for Miami and New Orleans, no place south of the Potomac

or South of the Ohio or east of the Mississippi, was mentioned.

Mr. BLACK. Well, that wasn't our movie, then.

Senator MORTON. I will wait until somebody from Interior gets up

here before I let loose, then.

Mr. BLACK. You might be interested to know, Senator Morton, that

we are begining now a series of regional movies, not so much on what

to see in the country, but how to see it—facilities, what the motels are

like, how to get on a bus or so forth—covering the seven basic regions

of the United States. We are starting with the Northwest and Southwest, but we will move across the country as we get funds.

Senator MORTON. Do you find the lingual barrier is one of our

greatest difficulties?

Mr. BLACK. Yes, it is. However, more and more people who are

coming to this country for the first time, who don't speak English, are

coming as a part of a group, escorted group tours, so it is not as bad as

it might be. But it still is a problem.

Senator MORTON. I think it is a problem we have to give some attention to, because you can go almost anywhere in Europe without any

real lingual problem. You can find someone who speaks English in

almost every village.

I remember 20 years ago, for instance, there was a lingual problem in

many parts of Spain. Today it hardly exists. It is just the same as

France, almost, in the fact that you find someone who speaks English

in almost every restaurant or hotel or shop. And I imagine when you

get away from New York and San Francisco, that the lingual problem is one that could cause discomfort to visitors.
22 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

Mr. BLACK. Yes. Of course, they have an advantage over us in

Europe, because they live so close together, with all of these languages,

and they have been visiting each other and their armies have been

overrunning each other for centuries, so their people get to know how

to speak German and so forth.

We have never had this kind of history, so it is more a problem for us.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you ought to pursue this further, too. The

hotel and motel associations are logical associations, even though

maybe they can't afford to have somebody that can talk all kinds of

languages, but if they are in a small community, let's say, they can

have listed somebody in that community, say, that can talk Spanish.

He may not be connected with the hotel or motel at all, but if somebody

happens, they can always get ahold of them and they can come down

and be helpful.

This should be encouraged, because every community in the United

States has someone who can talk the language of the person, even

though you couldn't afford to hire them. Large hotels do.

Mr. BLACK. Yes. Hotels have done a tremendous job on that.

Here is a booklet the Hotel Association has put out, "Guide for

Guests From Abroad in American Hotels," and they have a language

phrase chart they provide to their members and so forth.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Bartlett?

Senator BARTLETT. Mr. Black, excluding Mexico and Canada, how

many visitors did we have from abroad last year?

Mr. BLACK. 962,000 business and pleasure visitors.

Senator BARTLETT. What country furnished most of those?

Mr. BLACK. England, by far; 160,000.

Senator BARTLETT. Is the cost of traveling in the United States any

more for the average tourist than it is for the American traveling

when, we will say, in France, now?

Mr. BLACK. I don't think it is. I really don't. There are many

areas where the cost here is less than it would be in Europe. The airline fares, for example, are much lower here. You get soap in your

hotel room here for free, whereas some places you have to pay for it.

There are a lot of areas where it is cheaper.

But I think the general range of travel for the same accommodations would compare with Europe.

Senator BARTIETT. Over there, there is a service charge added to the

hotel bill; is there not?

Mr. BLACK. That is true.

Senator BARTLETT. And additionally, the visitors are expected to

tip, although the service charge was designed to obviate that?

Mr. BLACK. That is unfortunately true; yes, sir.

Senator BARTLETT. Do your offices abroad have chief contact with

individuals or with travel agents and the like?

Mr. BLACK. The principal contact is with the travel agents and with

the carrier sales personnel and also with personnel of other branches

of the travel industry that are increasingly establishing sales offices

abroad, hotels

'

and so forth.

But also we try to work with the general public. We have in Europe,

we have been quite successful with 'Visit U.S.A." nights, where we go

to a commercial theater in town and show a travel movie, either ours or

a carrier's travel movie, and invite people either from the industry or
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 23

the general public to come in and we distribute our literature and so

forth.

'Senator BARTLETr. How many people do you have in the Paris

office?

Mr. BLACK. We have eight in total.

Senator BARTLETT. Tokyo?

Mr. BLACK. Four.

Senator BARTLETT. In any of these countries, do you use foreign currencies that we have accumulated?

Mr. BLACK. Senator, we could, but the countries where we have a

surplus of foreign currencies are not those countries where we have

a travel market. They are places like Indonesia, Pakistan, Burma,.

There are six or seven countries where we have surplus foreign currencies but we don't have a need for them. That is the prolem.

Senator BARTLETT. You don't have any yens or francs or pounds?

Mr. BLACK. Not that are in surplus.

Senator MORTON. Congress spends all that.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hartke?

Senator HARTKE. You said the travel gap had been reduced. What

was the total amount? In other words, on both sides? You gave us

the net result.

Mr. BLACK. Well, in 1963 the total income was $934 million, the total

outflow was $1.156 billion. To that you have to add the carrier fare

payments, that is what we pay to foreign-flag carriers, versus what foreigners pay to American-flag carriers. Foreign payments to U.S.-

flag carriers, $118 million; U.S. payments to foreign-flag carriers, $615

million. So, add those to the income and outflow and you get a net

deficit of $1.653 billion.

For 1964, our income was $1.095 billion, the outflow was $2.216 billion—I am afraid the outflow in 1963 was $2.090 billion, and 1964—

excuse me.

Senator HARTKE. Let's start all over.

Mr. BLACK. In 1963, income $934 million; outflow $2.090 billion.

Then add to the $934, $118 million, and add to the $2.090 billion, $615

million, and the difference should be $1.653 billion.

Senator HARTKE. What is 1964?

Mr. BLACK. In 1964, the income was $1.095 billion; outflow was

$2.216 billion. Then add to the income $150 million, in carrier fare

payments, and to the outflow $635 million, for a difference of $1.606

billion.

Senator HARTKE. So what you had really was not alone an increase

here at home, but a decrease in travel overseas, is that what you are

saying?

Mr. BLACK. No, it wasn't. We had an increase on both sides, but

the increase on the income side was more than the increase on the outflow, is what it amounted to.

Senator HARTKE. What effect do you think the recent reduction in

the duty-free items is going to have in relation to this travel gap?

Mr. BLACK. I think even with the $100 retail figure that was finally

approved, it will have some effect. It won't have as much effect as it

would have with $50, I don't think. The Secretary of the Treasury

estimated somewhere around a $25 to $50 million saving, even with the

$100 retail figure.
24 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

Senator CorroN. Senator, would you yield?

Senator HARTKE. Surely.

Senator COTTON. Do you mean to say that there are appreciable

numbers of people who make the decision as to whether they will take

a trip abroad or not on the matter of what they can bring back?

Mr. BLACK. No, I don't think they make their decision on that basis.

But I do think that the amount of money that they will spend, once

they get over, is going to be determined by that.

If they want to buy a watch, say, for somebody's birthday, they are

going to be more likely to buy that watch over there than back home

if they can bring it back in duty-free.

So that is why I think you will have more spending.

Senator CorroN. So you commend the reduction?

Mr. BLACK. I think the reduction is in order, yes.

Senator CorroN. You think a reduction to $50 would have been

even better?

Mr. BLACK. I do, yes, sir.

Senator CorroN. Thank you.

Senator HARTKE. Don't you find that most people who travel have

an amount budgeted for the total amount of their trip and they will

spend that amount, generally speaking, one way or another?

Mr. BLACK. I think some do, but I think there are others that don't,.

I think there is a lot of last-minute buying, when you are in the airport departure lounge and you see the Swiss watches up there, you say

"Well, I haven't bought my $100 yet, and my brother is having a

birthday next week; why don't I buy it now." I think there is a little

bit of that.

Senator HARTKE. Don't they make the determination on the lastminute buying by how much is left in their wallet?

Mr. BLAcx. Yes. But if they have enough left in their wallet, they

will buy that watch, if they can get it in duty-free.

Senator HARTKE. Very generally, don't they budget themselves,

though, on how much they are going to spend, and that is it? The

frequent traveler, that is; to him it doesn't make much difference either

way.

Mr. BLACK. For the business traveler, it doesn't make too much

difference. But even on the liquor allowance, a lot of people would

get their gallon just as they were leaving and they won't be doing that

now.

I think there will be some saving there.

Senator HARTKE. They will get their quart now?

Mr. BLACK. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. This is very helpful to Kentucky, isn't it?

Mr. BLACK. Sir, I am a bourbon drinker, and when I come back

with five bottles of bourbon—but I won't be able to do that any more.

For me, it will not help Kentucky.

Senator HARTKE. Do you have offices inside the 'United States as

well?

Mr. BLACK. No, sir.

Senator HARTKE. Do you conduct any tours inside the United

States, with your staff, to elicit information which can be helpful for

distribution overseas?

Mr. BLACK. We don't conduct tours as such. The closest we come

to it is with certain travel writers we bring over, and travel agents
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 25

from abroad, to give them tours of the United States, we sometimes

go along with them and plan their itinerary.

Senator HARTKE. Have you ever given consideration to having some

of your people tour each one of the States, and for the States themselves to list what they consider the outstanding visit spots?

Mr. BLACK. Yes, we do. I mentioned earlier about the State liaison

officers. We have one man on our staff who does nothing but contact

State liaison officers. He is on the road more than half of the time.

He is constantly in contact with the States, to keep up with what is

going on in each State.

Senator HARTKE. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. On that point, there has been some discussions,

i

because of this balance-of-payments deficit, about setting up a domestic travel agency, to encourage Americans to travel n the United

States, attack it from that end, too. Would you have any comment

about that proposal?

Mr. BLACK. Well, I think it may have some merit. But the way

the administration has decided to attack this problem now is not to set

up a Government agency, but to work through private industry.

You are aware of the "Discover America" group, headed by Mr.

Short, who is working with private industry. They will do the same

kind of job. I think the feeling on the part of certainly the Vice

President, who has been heading this up, is let's see what private industry can do on a voluntary basis 'and if that works, that would be

better than to get the Government into it.

The CHAIRMAN. And then let the States do it themselves, because

the States are very active in this field.

Mr. BLACK. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hartke ?

Senator HARTKE. You are not still operating under the theory that

we have a balance-of-payments deficit, are you?

Mr. BLACK. Well, yes, we have.

Senator HARTKE. Haven't you seen the recent figures showing we

have about a billion dollars' balance-of-payments surplus?

Mr. BLACK. Yes, I have seen the figures

'

but I have also heard what

the Secretary of the Treasury has said. He said this is fine for the

second quarter, but we have to worry about the third and fourth

quarters and next year. I don't think he is at all optimistic we will

continue in a surplus position.

Senator HARTKE. Well, I know you have a travel gap. I am not

complaining about that. But I do think it would be wrong for you

to predicate your decision on the basis that we have a balance-ofpayments deficit, when we have a surplus which is causing us some

trouble at the moment. Frankly, I see nothing in the future to indicate 'that that surplus is going to be back to a deficit position.

Mr. BLACK. I hope you are right. I think you may be, because

there are 'certain adjustments coming about. But we don't predicate

our program on the fact that there is a balance-of-payments deficit.

Senator HARTKE. You just want more people to come and visit the

United States?

Mr. BLACK. That is right, exactly, sir.

Senator HARTKE. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, the alarming deficit, when we discussed this

matter, was one of the justifications for this bill, and you have done
26 BALDWLN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

something to help it out. And we hope we can keep a surplus, but

we still want to keep the people coming in. Has the Senator from

Indiana suggestions?

Senator BREWSTER. One question, Mr. Chairman. We have a rather

massive program in this country, "See America First," and we are,

as you well know, attempting to discourage our people from traveling;

overseas. The Vice President has taken great leadership in this activity. Do you find that similar activity is being carried on in other

countries, where you have offices? Are they trying to keep their people

home, and if so, does that restrict your activities there?

Mr. BLACK. Well, we do know some countries. In some countries

the national tourist office does have a domestic program. I think of

Mexico, for example, where there is quite a program to have Mexicans

see Mexico first. The British Travel Association also encourages

Britons to see Britain first. I don't think it has ever really hurt our

program, though, because most of these countries don't try to say

"don't go abroad"; they say what we are trying to say now, look your

own country over, there are travel opportunities here too, and try to

approach it from a positive point of view. Most foreign countries do

that and I think we ought to do it as well.

Senator BREWSTER. You found no bureaucratic redtape or resistance

that has arisen overseas as a result of our policy of keeping our people

home?

Mr. BLACK. There is a lot of apprehension about what we might do.

There hasn't been any tangible repercussion to it yet, though, nothing

that has harmed our program. I imagine if some of the more extreme

measures for keeping Americans home were adopted, we would run

into some problems and it would result in our getting fewer people to

come here from abroad.

Senator BREWSTER. But to date it has not hurt our activities?

Mr. BLACK. No, sir.

Senator BREWSTER. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cannon?

Senator CANNON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know Bonanza

Airlines has this so-called $90, 90-day program east of the Mississippi.

How did that work out? Was it effective?

Mr. BLACK. Yes. As a matter of fact I was just talking to the

president of Bonanza about a week ago about that program and he

says it has worked out very well. Of course this applied to Americans

from the East, they had the advantage of this special rate.

The fare plan we are particularly interested in is the fare plan that

all of the feeder lines have, 21 days, for $150, which is just for foreign

visitors. That has been working splendidly.

Senator CANNON. This trunk program you mentioned, do they get

a substantial reduction on that?

Mr. BLACK. Well, they would, depending on how much the individual visitor used his fare. But the Delta plan, for example, operates

coast to coast, and for $250, you can get 30 days unlimited travel. You

could fly coast to coast 15 or 20 times. You could probably use $2,000

or $3,000 worth of air transportation if you wanted to take full advantage of it.

Senator CANNON. In view of the emphasis on our "See America

First" program, why wouldn't it be a good idea to make this type of

program available for our own people?
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 27

Mr. BLACK. Well, I think one of the reasons that the airlines have

been able to offer these special reduced plans is that there are still

not that many foreign visitors coming into the country. They are

not going to go broke on it. I think if you made the same plan available to American citizens, the airlines would lose money.

Of course they are offering lower fare plans, the family plan, and

so forth, and that does show a reduction in the regular fares. But

I think the really great bar against what the foreign visitors are

getting is that it would run the airlines out of business if they tried

to do it domestically.

Senator CANNON. What progress is being made if any, in these

countries abroad that have a limit on the amount of money their people can take out? Have you made any headway in this?

Mr. BLACK. We keep track of that year by year and the progress

has been substantial, particularly in the last 7 or 8 years. The best

thing that has happened is that a year ago the Japanese, who prevented their citizens from traveling abroad at all on vacation, have

now granted an allowance of $500 they can take out. All of the

Western European countries now have a $700 minimum that the

OECD set up. Four or five years ago many of the countries didn't

allow them to take that much out. So the movement has been in the

right direction.

Senator CANNON. Have you made any progress in the Middle East

countries?

Mr. BLACK. Here there has not been so much. India, for example,

which could be a tremendous market for travel, will not let their citizens travel at all. Pakistan is another country where it is difficult

to get money out. In that area we have not made progress.

Senator CANNON. Are you car Ting on any activities in this area, in

connection with the State Department, to try to reduce or loosen up

the situation?

Mr. BLACK. We have encouraged the State Department to try to

correct this problem. It is State's primary responsibility and many

of the problems are tied in with other financial worries that don't

have anything to do with travel. So we can't tell State what to do,

but they are aware this is a problem.

Senator CANNON. Are they more than aware, are they doing anything about it, or are they just aware of it?

Mr. BLACK. I think the Japanese example is a good one, where they

have done something about it. Norway, in the last 6 months, has

raised its tourist allowance. We wrote the new Ambassador over there

and said would you see what you can do and she did something about

it. So they are showing progress.

There are some areas of the world where there is either a political

problem or other problem, where they haven't been able to do so

much.

Senator CANNON. Well, this Japanese change has been very noticeable in the west coast areas in the increase in travel from Japan to the

west coast areas.

Mr. BLACK. Yes. Could I interject one thing on this point, because

it is important, particularly for the Senators' from the northern border

States. The big problem, the principle reason why this travel gap has

gotten bigger from 1961 to now, is because of the Canadian problem,

where we haven't been able to make any progress.
28 BALDWLN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

Over half of the deterioration in the travel gap is due to Canada.

We used to earn money in our travel with Canada, now we lose money.

Last year we lost $102 million, because the Canadian duty free allowance, for their citizens going back from the States, was cut from $100

to $25 a couple of years ago and it wiped the whole thing off the map,

as far as earning money there is concerned. So this is a real problem,

and we have encouraged State to try to do something about that.

The CHAIRMAN. How much is the Canadian restriction now?

Mr. BLACK. $25, every 30 days, and it used to be $100.

Senator CANNON. Do we have any restriction at ?

Mr. BLACK. We have $100, it is the same.

Senator CANNON. The $100 does apply?

Mr. BLACK. That is right. It does apply. There is that inequality,

which has hurt our travel account.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Brewster?

Senator BREWSTER. Is there any attempt to establish any common

policy on travel restrictions among the more industrialized nations of

the world, or is there any effort to establish a policy of reciprocity on

import restrictions and travel restrictions?

Mr. BLACK. Well, not reciprocity as such. There has been an effort

among the OECD countries to adopt the same standards for the treatment of tourists, and for the granting of travel allowances and so forth.

You may be aware of the Rome Conference on Travel and Tourism

of 2 years ago, which adopted a whole set of recommendations on how

we can better develop world travel. The OECD made it a point to

take the Rome recommendations and implement them in the OECD

countries. Just in the last few days the countries of OECD has been

considering this. The recommendations that came out of the Tourism

Committee. So the industrialized nations are moving in this

direction.

Senator BREWSTER. Would you recommend that the State Department consider establishing a common policy with Canada, for instance,

so that if their restriction is $25, then our restriction should be $25?

Mr. BLACK. Well, speaking from our point of view, I would say

that would be an excellent idea. We have even suggested it. Of

course the Canadian problems have other ramifications. But I think

it would be only fair to have the same restriction.

Senator BREWSTER. Both on imports and perhaps on the amount of

money that could be taken out?

Mr. BLACK. Well, there is no restriction on either side of the border,

as far as the amount of money that can be taken out is concerned.

Senator BREWSTER. How about with Japan?

Mr. BLACK. That I think would be difficult to do. This has been

suggested to the Treasury Department; that is, we would limit the

amount of money that we could take out to 

Japan, 

depending on how

much they let their people take out. But administratively, this would

be awfully hard to do, because an American going to Europe will visit

seven or eight countries. How much money would you let him have?

What the lowest country gave us? I think that would be dangerous, actually. But on the duty-free allowances, that is something else.

Senator BREWSTER. That is an area where there could be cooperation

and reciprocity as to amount?

Mr. BLACK. I think there should be; yes.
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 29

The CHAIRMAN. The Senator from Colorado. Tourism is a big business in Colorado.

Senator DOMINICK. It sure is, and I hope it will continue as well as it has been in the past.

Mr. Black, I have had some discussion; in fact, I have introduced legislation in two sessions now to try and do something about the. problems of extra customs duties when people arrive by other than train or by car at ports of entry in our country, after 5 p.m., or on weekends. This I think would be particularly troublesome to people from Canada. I wonder if you have had complaints on this, as one of the restrictions that we impose on tourism as such which might be modified?

Mr. BLACK. Well, we are certainly aware of the problem. I don't know that we have had complaints from the creneral public; at least

our office has not. I know the air transport industry, ATA, has been quite sensitive about this problem, and they certainly have had com- plaints. I don't know all of the details.

There may be good reasons why overtime payments and nonavaila- bility of inspectors should be allowed to continue. But I don't know

what they are. I do recognize it as a problem.

Senator DOMINICK. Would this type of problem come within your jurisdiction?

Mr. BLACK. Well, it could; yes. In terms of fascilitating travel;

yes_, sir, it does.

Senator DOMINICK. Do you have an.y feeling that this cuts down on

travel that we might get from Canada, for example, or from Mexico,

on the other side?

Mr. BLACK. I have no evidence that it does, that it actually cuts

down the travel. I think it makes travel perhaps for some people more

difficult than it otherwise would be, and even from that point of view

it is something we probably should look into more than we have.

Senator DOMINICK. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Senator COTTON. Aren't most of the people coming from Canada

business visitors rather than tourists?

Mr. BLACK. No; I would say the vast majority from Canada are

tourists.

The CHAIRMAN. IS it $25 per person?

Mr. BLACK. That is right., per person.

The CHAIRMAN. And it is per month. Can they save that up?

Mr. BLACK. Well, no, they can't—come in once every 8 months and

spend $200? No.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, how can they get by in this country?

Mr. BLACK. That is what they can bring back without paying duty

on it.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. The $25 is what they can bring back. I

thought you were talking about limiting the travel, the money they

could spend on travel.

Mr. BLACK. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That used to be prohibited in Canada until recent

years.

Mr. BLACK. Yes, I think in the midfifties they discontinued that.

They can take out any amount they want to.

The CHAIRMAN. Now has there been any progress made in the rental

car field, with foreign travelers renting cars at different rates?
30 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

Mr. BLACK. No, not as such. But the rental car people are doing;

a tremendous job of promotion and some of them are putting in foreign language facilities, these little tape recorders, where you go out

and see the city with these automatic guides with you. But no special

price breaks for foreign visitors as such that come to my mind.

The CHAIRMAN. Now again to reiterate the importance of this to us,

we had some testimony you will recall in the original hearing on the

bill which showed that the tourist dollar spent created more employment than any other comparable dollar spent in the economic field.

That was because of the personal services involved in tourism. I wish

you would look that up and put in the record what that means to

employment figures in this country.

Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir. We have some data on that. I will be happy

to supply it.

(The information requested follows:)

Attached are three extracts from testimony or reports dealing with the importance of the tourist dollar to local economies: (1) Testimony of Joseph I.

McDonnell before the Senate Commerce Committee on the International Travel

Act of 1961; (2) extract from "The Future of Tourism in the Pacific and the

Far East" (1961), authorized by Checchi & Co. and published by the Department

of Commerce; (3) extract from "Your Community Can Profit from the Tourist

Business," U.S. Department of Commerce, Office of Area Development, 1957.

[International travel hearings before the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce,

U.S. Senate (on S. 610) 87th Cong., 1st sess., Feb. 2and 3, 1961 (pp. 59-601

STATEMENT OF JOSEPH I. MCDONELL, CHAIRMAN, TRAVEL COMMITTEE, AMERICAN

HOTEL ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D.C.

"* * * It might be helpful to the committee to Understand how quickly the

travel dollar flows into the local community. There are two sources of information which throw some light on this subject: one is a study made in 1957 by the

International Association of Convention Bureaus, an American organization, and

the other by a nationally known accounting firm specializing in U.S. hotel

operations.

"A table and two charts are attached to this statement, graphically showing

what becomes of the dollar spent by the out-of-town visitor while traveling,

and how the portion collected by hotels is distributed in the community. In

the convention bureau chart it is shown that hotels collect 42.76 cents of each

dollar spent by each traveler for lodging, incidentals, food, and beverages. In

turn, the hotel spends all but 8.3 percent of its income dollar directly for labor

and other services involved in their operations."

"* * * It is a very surprising volume of tax money that the tourist dollar

generates.

"We also feel that this sort of improvement in the general level of transient

business in the United States will help reduce the tax burden, which is laid upon

the travel industry.

"It is interesting to know that, of the amount received by hotels, 10.3 cents of

every dollar flows into the hands of tax authorities in the following manner:

real estate taxes, 3.8 cents; social security taxes, 1.5 cents; other direct taxes,

including Federal income taxes, 5 cents. Another study made of the convention

delegate's dollar, in the city of New York in 1957, showed that nearly 4 million

delegates and visitors spent 18.4 percent of their dollars in retail stores."

CHECCHI & Co. (1961)

[Extract from "The Future of Tourism in the Pacific and the Far East," p. 181

"The turnover of tourist expenditures in economies with high leakages (where

money leaves the immediate economy) is about 3.2 (per year) and in economies

with less leakage, about 4.3."
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 31

f Extract from "Your Community Can Profit From the Tourist Business," U.S. Department of Commerce, Office of Area Development, 1957]

"How much could this business mean to your community? If the community

can attract a couple of dozen tourists a day throughout the year, it would be economically comparable to acquiring a new manufacturing industry with an annual payroll of $100,000."

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?

Senator BARTLETT. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Did you say, Mr. Black, that this special rate for foreign visitors,

offered by the local feeder airlines, is still in effect?

Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir, it is.

Senator BARTLETT. How much is that and for how long?

Mr. BLACK. It is $150 for 21 days.

Senator BARTLETT. Isn't it true that a foreign visitor, under that plan, can start at New York and go across the country zigzag—and I

suppose a visitor would like to go zigzag, it gives him more of a view

of the country—and wind up at Barrow, Alaska and come back to

New York, all for $150?

Mr. BLACK. Exactly. It can be done. I know people that have done it.

Senator BARTLETT. Isn't that perhaps the greatest tourist bargain

in history?

Mr. BLACK. I think it it. We regard it as such.

Senator BARTLETT. A trip of close to 10,000 miles for $150.

Mr. BLACK. That is true. Anyone who lives abroad, one of our own

people who worked for us, an American citizen, did this thing, went

up to Alaska, all around, as you described.

Senator BARTLETT. No one told me about that. Last weekend I went

to St. Lawrence Island, 20 miles off the coast of Siberia, and that cost $800.

Mr. BLACK. The new plan requires you to be a foreign national now.

The CHAIRMAN. The Senator from Ohio.

Senator LAUSCHE. Are you familiar with the statistics dealing with

the number of U.S. nationals that visit Russia and the Russian na- tionals that visit the United States?

Mr. BLACK. Roughly, yes, sir.

Senator LAITSCHE. What do you calculate the number of U.S. na- tionals that visit Russia to be?

Mr. BLACK. Well, I think it is in the neighborhood of about 10,000

a year now. It is somewhat less than a few years ago. It is on that

order. I could give the exact figures for the record.

Senator LA-crscHE. What is the number of Russians that come to the

United States?

Mr. BLACK. It is well under 1,000. It is in three figures.

Senator LAITSCHE. Are you now speaking of both the tourist and the

exchange students and artists?

Mr. BLACK. The 10,000 that I am speaking of is tourists, American

tourists. When I say less than 1,000 of Russians coming here, I am

talking about everyone. There are no real Russian tourists coming to this country. They are all coming in an official capacity of one kind or

another.

Senator LAITSCHE. It is my understanding there are about 300 Russian tourists that come to the United States, and whatever more there

are, they consist of the exchange personnel.
32 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

Mr. BLACK. Yes.

Senator LAUSCHE. Can you give any reason why that number is so

disproportionate?

Mr. BLACK. The only reason I can give is the reason the Russians

give now and they say it is too expensive for their people to come over

here. They have been after us, actually, to provide lower cost tours,

especially for Russians. They say it is just impossible for the average

Russian to afford this.

Senator LAuscHE. Do your statistics show what the calculation is,

how much a U.S. national visiting Russia spends there on a visit and

how much a Russian national spends in the United States?

Mr. BLACK. I don't have those figures with me but I can get them.

Senator LA-CISME. I wish you would supply for the record your

understanding of the total number of visitors, reciprocally, separating

the number as to tourists and exchange personnel. Then also provide

the figure for the record showing what you calculate the spending to

be of the U.S. citizens in Russia and that of the Russian citizens in the

United States per person.

Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And if you have the figures on the satellite countries, the comparison similarly, that would be well to have in the record

too.

Senator LAUSCHE. Yes.

Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir.

(The information requested follows:)

NUMBER OF VISITORS

The Immigration and Naturalization Service reports that in 1964 the United

States received 18,942 visitors from all Eastern European countries of which

13,574 entered on business or pleasure (unofficial) visas. Of this number 2,166

were from the Soviet Union, of which only 711 were business and pleasure (unofficial) visitors. The corresponding figures for 1963 were 12,816 visitors from

all Eastern European countries of which 8,626 were business and pleasure visitors—and 2,053 U.S.S.R. visitors of which 720 were business and pleasure visitors.

In 1964, 42,960 U.S. citizens visited the Eastern European countries, of which

an estimated 13,500 were destined for the Soviet Union. The corresponding

figures for 1963 were 28,805 U.S. visitors to the Soviet bloc of which an estimated

13,500 were destined for the Soviet Union.

VISITOR SPENDING

Unfortunately, official U.S. Government information on the amounts of money

spent by visitors to and from the Soviet bloc is quite sketchy. Our best estimate,

based on figures from the Office of Business Economics, is that visitors from the

U.S.S.R. (for all purposes) spent approximately $650,000 in the United States

in 1964 as compared with an expenditure of approximately $3 million by U.S.

visitors to Russia. Visitors to the United States from the entire Soviet bloc

in 1964 spent an estimated $5.8 million here, as compared with expenditures of

$8.7 million by Americans visiting Soviet bloc countries. The lower per capita

expenditures of U.S. visitors to the Soviet bloc is caused by the fact that their

average length of stay is shorter than for visitors to the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. If there are no further questions of Mr.

Black, we appreciate your very fine report, and thank you for coming

up.

Mr. BLACK. Thank you, sir.

(Whereupon, at 11:30 a.m., the hearing was adjourned and resumed

again at 12:25 p.m. with Senator E. L. Bartlett presiding.)
NOMINATION OF DAVID R. BALDWIN TO BE

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF COMMERCE

Senator BARTLETT. Now we have Mr. David R. Baldwin, to be

Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Administration. We will put

your biography in the record in full and the letter from the Senator

from Pennsylvania, Mr. Clark.

(A letter and biography of David R. Baldwin follow:)

UNITED STATES SENATE,

Washington, D.C., July 13, 1965.

Hon. WARREN G. MAGNUSON,

Chairman, Commitee on Commerce, U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MAGGIE : Thank you for informing me that the Commerce Committee has

received the nomination of David R. Baldwin of Pennsylvania to be an Assistant

Secretary of Commerce.

I am happy to suport this nomination, and I hope the committee will act

favorably on it.

Best regards.

Sincerely yours,

JOSEPH S. CLARK.

BIOGRAPHY OF DAVID R. BALDWIN

David R. Baldwin was sworn in as Deputy Assistant Secretary for Administration on April 16, 1965, by the Secretary of Commerce, John T. Connor. On

May 1, 1965, he was named Acting Assistant Secretary for Administration.

Mr. Baldwin, born in 1923, began his college education in 1941 at the University

of Connecticut. He then transferred to Wesleyan University, where in 1944

he interrupted his college career to serve in the U.S. Navy where he was assigned

to the Central Pacific area as an executive officer Lt. (j.g.). He returned to the

University of Connecticut and was awarded the degree of bachelor of science

in government in 1947. He went on to Wayne University and in 1948 obtained

his master's degree in public administration.

In 1948 he worked for the Connecticut Public Expenditure Council in Hartford,

where he served as assistant to the director of the Municipal Counciling Service.

In 1950 he poined the staff of western division of the Pennsylvania Economy

League as executive secretary of the Fayette County branch. As a result of

administrative studies, he was asked to become the chief assessor of Fayette

County and held the post from 1952 to 1956. In the 1954, Pennsylvania's Governor Leader apointed Mr. Baldwin as a member of a three-man team whose purpose

was to determine the fiscal condition of the State for the Governor-elect. After

completing this he returned to work in Fayette County.

In 1956 he poined the staff of the Pennsylvania Economy League in Pittsburgh

as a senior staff member. While in Pittsburgh he served on Mayor Lawrence's

management advisory committee, where he advised the mayor on management

problems in all phases of city government. When Mayor Lawrence was elected

Governor of Pennsylvania in 1959, Mr. Baldwin was appointed budget secretary

and deputy secretary of administration in the Governor's Cabinet. He held this

position throughout Governor Lawrence's administration handling an annual

budget of $2.5 billion.

From January 1963, until his appointment in the Department of Commerce as

Deputy Assistant Secretary for Administration, Mr. Baldwin served as executive

assistant to the State treasurer of Pennsylvania and adviser to the minority

members of the legislature in matters of finance and administration.

Mr. Baldwin is a member of the-G overnmental Research Association, Municipal

Finance Officers Association of the United States and Canada, American Society

33
34 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

for Public Administration, Theta Xi Fraternity, U.S. Naval Reserve, and is chairman, troop committee, Boy Scouts of America. He is currently serving as elder

in the United Presbyterian Church, U.S.A.

Mr. Baldwin is married and has three sons.

Senator BARTLETT. Will you tell us something about yourself, Mr.

Baldwin, and the duties of your office?

STATEMENT OF DAVID R. BALDWIN, NOMINEE

Mr. BALDWIN. Yes, I will. My biography is fairly complete. I

think I might enlarge on it in one respect. I think, as a professional

public administrator, I have had perhaps a more unique experience

than many have, having started at the local level and worked up

through the various offices of county and State, and now I find myself

at the Federal level.

Just a little background as to how I happened to find myself where

I am: I came down to Washington the 12th of April to assume the

duties of Deputy Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Administration. As you know, there was an unfortunate episode, and Mr.

Klotz left. Two weeks after my arrival, I found myself Acting Assistant Secretary.

As you will see from the biography, I was born and brought up in

Connecticut, where I guess most of the Baldwins started. I graduated

from the University of Connecticut and got my master's degree at

Wayne University in Detroit in public administration. I have been

with various private organizations, such as the Connecticut Public

Expenditure Council and the Pennsylvania Economy League, both

of which are privately supported governmental research agencies, and

in between these tours of duty I have held various public offices, the

latest being budget secretary and deputy secretary of administration

of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and more recently as executive assistant to the State treasurer for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

So my entire career has been in public administration—this is my

career, and this is what I am doing now.

The duties of the office of Assistant Secretary of Commerce for

Administration are those which deal with the organization and operation, the housekeeping functions, if you will, of the Department, such

as budget, accounting, personnel, various properties and supplies, investigation, and a number of other things, such as the New York

World's Fair, the Federal Pavilion, which I found myself having fallen

heir to.

Senator LAIISCHE. Why do you put it that way?

Mr. BALDWIN. Well, as I said, I sort of fell heir to this job, inasmuch as Mr. Klotz left, and I had to take over on short notice.

Senator LATTSCHE. Do you have a problem with the New York

World's Fair?

Mr. BALDWIN. I think any time you are winding up any sort of organization such as that you have a problem, Senator.

Senator BARTLETT. Are you winding it up already?

Mr. BALDWIN. Well, in October it will be wound up, and we are

preparing to wind it up now. The financial matters, and so on, have to

be attended to.

Senator LAIISCHE. Are they asking for more money?

•
BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS 35

Mr. BALDWIN. We have not asked for more money, Senator, and

it is my fervent hope we. will not have to ask for more money. This,

however, very candidly, depends on whether or not we are able to

dispose of the Federal Pavilion without having to demolish it. We

think there is a good chance we will be able to do this.

Senator LAUSCHE. How much money do we have in it, $17 millon ?

Mr. BALDWIN. The total appropriation was $17 million; the building cost around $10 million.

Senator LAUSCHE. You may have to demolish it?

Mr. BALDWIN. The original contract called for demolition of the

building.

Senator LAUSCHE. How can you recoup any of the investment—sell

it, you mean?

Mr. BALDWIN. Well, at the moment, if we could get someone to take

it off our hands, it would cost the taxpayers far less money. I doubt

if we can get anybody to buy it because it is on city of New York park

property.

Senator LAUSCHE. Did you agree to demolish it?

Mr. BALDWIN. Originally, there was an agreement that it would

be demolished, yes, but we may be able to get around that.

Senator BARTLETT. Isn't this building valuable enough, for some

purpose, or other, to move from there and place elsewhere?

Mr. BALDWIN. If you have seen the size of the building, it is of

a permanent construction, it would be a feat of major undertaking

to move it. However, I think there is a very good chance that we

will be able to get an educational institution—we are working quite

hard with some of the educational institutions in the New York area—

to take it over.

Senator BARTLETT. Would you consider coming before the Congress and asking for an adequate appropriation to move the building,

piece by piece, from where it is to Fairbanks, Alaska, for use in our

1967 Centennial Exposition?

Senator LAuscnE. You had better answer "Yes," if you want him

to be in favor of you.

Mr. BALDWIN. I can see that. I think I would have to say that

would have to come under serious engineering considerations before

any statement could be made.

Senator BARTLETT. Have you had any experience with engineering?

Mr. BALDWIN. Not as a professional engineer. However, as a professional public administrator, I have dealt with a lot of things that

had to do with engineering problems.

Senator BARTLETT. Perhaps you would address yourself to this

small problem immediately.

Mr. BALDWIN. "Small problem," I hope, Senator.

Senator BARTLETT. Oh, no. How long have you been with the

Federal Government?

Mr. BALDWIN. Since the 12th of April.

Senator BARTLETT. How long have you occupied your present position?

Mr. BALDWIN. Two weeks after that. Well, I still carry the title

of Deputy Assistant Secretary, so whether I am wearing the hat as

Deputy Assistant Secretary, or wearing it as Acting Assistant Secretary makes a difference. Since April 12, actually.
36 BALDWIN, BLACK, AND COLLINS NOMINATIONS

Senator BARTLETT. Have you found any profound differences between Federal and State administration?

Mr. BALDWIN. I think that is one of the most interesting questions

that can be asked, because, as I have said many times to my new colleagues, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

If you are used to operating in a large State, such as Pennsylvania,

you find so many of the same problems, with different faces behind

them, coming to your desk.

Senator BARTLETT. And handled in somewhat the same manner?

Mr. BALDWIN. In somewhat the same manner, but with different

twists, and always the hope that there are better ways to handle things.

Senator BARTLETT. Your whole training has been for public service?

Mr. BALDWIN. It has sir.

Senator BARTLETT. And you have engaged in that ever since leaving

Connecticut?

Mr. BALDWIN. I have practiced my profession ever since I left Connecticut, and I like to call it a profession.

Senator BARTLETT. You have no regrets?

Mr. BALDWIN. None whatever

'

sir.

Senator BARTLETT. Have you filed, or have you been asked to file a

financial statement with the committee?

Mr. BALDWIN. I have, sir, yes. I filed one with the committee.

Senator BARTLETT. Is there anything in your financial position that

would conflict with your work for the Federal Government?

Mr. BALDWIN. Nothing whatsoever, Senator.

Senator BARTLETT. I have no further questions.

Senator LAUSCHE. I have no questions.

Senator BARTLETT. Thank you very much.

The committee will stand adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the committee adjourned.)

0