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AMENDING OVERSEAS TEACHERS ACT Qi

GOVERNMENT

Storage

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON

)FFICE AND CIVIL SERVICE

SE OF REPRESENTATIVES

-0 rq

EIGHTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS

rR FIRST SESSION

ON

R. 5399, H.R. 5430, and S. 841

BILLS TO AMEND THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT OVERSEAS

TEACHERS PAY AND PERSONNEL PRACTICES ACT,

AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

AUGUST 10, 1961

Printed for the use of the

Committee on Post Office and Civil Service

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 1901
COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICE AND CIVIL SERVICE

TOM MURRAY, Tennessee, Chairman

JAMES 11. MORRISON, Louisiana ROBERT J. CORBETT, Pennsylvania

JAMES C. DAVIS, Georgia

JOHN LESINSKI, Michigan

KATHRYN E. GRANAHAN, Pennsylvania

THADDEUS J. DULSKI, New York

DAVID N. HENDERSON, North Carolina

ARNOLD OLSEN, Montana

JOSEPH P. ADDABBO, New York

RICHARD H. ICHORD, Missouri

G. ELLIOTT HAGAN, Georgia

CATHERINE D. NORRELL, Arkansas

MORRIS K. UDALL, Arizona

H. R. GROSS, Iowa

JOEL T. BROYHILL, Virginia

AUGUST E. JOHANSEN, Michigan

GLENN CUNNINGHAM, Nebraska

GEORGE M. WALLHAUSER, New Jersey

ROBERT R. BARRY, New York

KATHARINE ST. GEORGE, New York

JOHN H. ROUSSELOT, California

EDWARD J. DERWINSKI, Illinois

SUBCOMMITTEE APPOINTED To CONSIDER H.R. 5399, H.R. 5430, AND S. 841

JAMES H. MORRISON, Louisiana, Chairman

ARNOLD OLSEN, Montana

JOSEPH P. ADDABBO, New York

RICHARD H. ICHORD, Missouri

II

JOEL T. BROYHILL, Virginia

GEORGE M. WALLHAUSER, New Jersey

ROBERT R. BARRY, New York
CONTENTS

Page

Statement of Edward A. Sompayrac, Office of the Assistant Secretary of

Defense (Manpower) 2

DI

AMENDING OVERSEAS TEACHERS ACT

THURSDAY, AUGUST 10, 1961

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE

COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICE AND CIVIL SERVICE,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m. in room 213,

House Office Building, Hon. Arnold Olsen (acting subcommittee

chairman) presiding.

Mr. OLSEN. The subcommittee will come to order.

This subcommittee was appointed to consider H.R. 5430, introduced

by Chairman Murray; H.R. 5399, by Mr. Corbett; and S. 841, which

passed the Senate on July 7, 1961, without opposition, and which was

referred to this committee on July 10, 1961. The subcommittee

members are Mr. Morrison, chairman, Mr. Addabbo, Mr. Ichord,

Mr. Broyhill, Mr. Wallhauser, Mr. Barry, and I have been designated

acting chairman in the absence of Mr. Morrison, who must be absent

and is back in Louisiana on official business.

The three bills are identical and were originally introduced at the

request of the Department of Defense for the purpose of correcting

two minor deficiencies or oversights in existing law which affect the

operation of the Overseas Teachers Pay and Personnel Act since it

was enacted in 1959.

(The bill, H.R. 5430, follows:)

[H.R. 5430, 87th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend the Defense Department Overseas Teachers Pay and Personnel Practices Act, and for

other purposes

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of

America in Congress assembled, That section 7(d) of the Defense Department

Overseas Teachers Pay and Personnel Practices Act (5 U.S.C. 2355 (d)) is amended

by inserting after the words "he shall", the words ", except for reasons beyond

his control and acceptable to the Department of Defense,".

SEC. 2. Section 7 of the Administrative Expenses Act of 1946, as amended

(5 U.S.C. 73b-3), is amended by inserting in the first proviso after the words

"his appointment", and in the second proviso after the word "concerned", the

words "or, in the case of a person employed in a teaching position (other than as

a substitute) in the Department of Defense under the Defense Overseas Teachers

Pay and Personnel Practices Act (5 U.S.C. 2351, and the following), for a minimum period of one school year as determined under such Act,".

Mr. OLSEN. In brief summary, section 1 of the proposed legislation is an amendment to the Overseas Teachers Act. Section 7(c)

of this act provides authority for quarters and certain other types of

allowances, during summer recess periods, for teachers who complete

a school year and who agree in writing to serve for the next school year.

The act further obligates any such teacher who does not report for

duty at the beginning of the next school year to repay any allowances

1
2 AMENDING OVERSEAS TEAtiltRS ACT

received during the summer recess regardless of the reasons for not

reporting. The amendment would permit administrative relief in

appropriate situations when a teacher is unable to report for the next

school year for reasons beyond his control and which are acceptable

to the Department of Defense. These reasons could include death,

serious illness, accidents, et cetera.

Section 2 of the legislation is an amendment to the Administrative

Expenses Act of 1946, as amended. Section 7 of this act requires

that an employee assigned to a post of duty outside the continental

United States serve for 12 months following his appointment in

order to be eligible for payment of the expenses of travel and transportation for himself, family, and household effects. As a general

rule, services of schoolteachers are required only for a school year,

which usually varies from 9 to 10 months. Thus, an effective "year

of service" for teachers falls 2 to 3 months under the minimum

services requirements of the present law. The amendment would

authorize the Secretary of Defense to prescribe minimum periods of

oversea service for teachers for transportation purposes consistent

with the length of the school year in a particular country.

Our witness this morning is Mr. Edward A. Sompayrac, Office of

the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Manpower). I would like to

mention that Mr. Sompayrac was a most helpful and knowledgeable

witness before our committee during original consideration of the

Overseas Teachers Act in 1959.

You may proceed as you see fit, Mr. Sompayrac.

Mr. BROYHILL. Mr. Chairman, if you will yield for just a moment,

I would like to amplify what you have just stated about Mr. Sompayrac being most helpful to the committee when the original act was

considered. I somewhat consider him as a coauthor of the act. He

was of great value to the committee at the time in putting this legislation in effect and correcting a lot of inequities that existed at the

time, and I would like to express my appreciation to him for his

wonderful assistance at that time.

STATEMENT OF EDWARD A. SOMPAYRAC, OFFICE OF THE

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (MANPOWER)

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Thank you very much, Mr. Broyhill and Mr.

Chairman.

I am Edward A. Sompayrac from the Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Manpower). Secretary Runge has asked me to

express his regret that he is unable to be here today. He had other

commitments and was unable to make it.

Before discussing the provisions of S. 841, which I understand is

the one mainly under consideration, I wish to take advantage of this

opliortunity to give this committee a brief report on the implementation of Public Law 86-91, the Defense Department Overseas Teachers

Pay and Personnel Practices Act.

You will recall that this legislation, which was largely developed in

cooperation with this committee, was intended to permit the establishment of pay and personnel practices for the teachers in the oversea

dependents' schools comparable to those found in school jurisdictions

in the United States. Prior to its enactment and implementation,

the teachers were subject to the Classification Act, the Annual and
AMENDING OVERSEAS TEACHERS ACT 3

Sick Leave Act, and various provisions of the Employees Pay Act of

1945, which were designed for application to regular full-time civil

service employees. Their application to professional schools personnel created a number of administrative problems because they were

inappropriate for the schoolteaching situation.

Public Law 86-91 was implemented in January of 1960. There

were some initial difficulties because it was placed into effect in the

middle of a school year. The last school year was the first in which

this law has been applicable during the entire year.

You will be pleased to know that Public Law 86-91 has been a

highly successful piece of legislation. It has eliminated practically

all of the administrative difficulties which it was designed to correct,

and it has been most acceptable to teachers' organizations and to

individual teachers. We are most appreciative of the efforts of this

committee which resulted in its enactment.

In spite of the complexity of Public Law 86-91, we have experienced

only two significant problems which were not adequately covered.

S. 841 was developed to permit correction of these two problems.

Section 7(c) of Public Law 86-91 provides authority for quarters,

or quarters allowance, or storage of household effects and personal

possessions, during summer recess periods for those teachers who

complete a "school year" and who agree in writing to serve for the

next "school year." Section 7(d) of the act obligates any such teacher

who does not report for service at the beginning of the next "school

year" to repay moneys received as a quarters allowance, or for storage,

or both, regardless of the reason for not reporting.

Section 1 of the proposed legislation would amend Public Law

86-91 so as to permit administrative relief when a teacher is unable to

report for tile next "school year" for reasons beyond his control, and

acceptable to the Department of Defense. Such reasons could include

death, serious illness, transfer (when considered to be in the interest

of the Government), and other similar circumstances.

Section 7 of the Administrative Expenses Act of 1946 provides that

transportation may be furnished employees to and from oversea

posts of duty if they sign an agreement to serve for a period of not less

than 1 nor more than 3 years. The services of teachers in the oversea

dependents' schools are required only for the "school year," a period

of some 9 months. On completion of a "school year," those teachers

who are not to be employed during the summer recess must resign in

order to be eligible for return transportation to the United States.

If they are to serve a subsequent school year, they must then be

rehired.

Section 2 of the proposed legislation would amend the Administrative Expenses Act of 1946 to provide that in the case of teachers

subject to Public Law 86-91 the minimum period of time that they

would be required to agree to serve in order to become eligible for

transportation at Government expense would be the length of the

"school year" as prescribed by the Secretary of Defense.

The amendment proposed by section 2, in addition to eliminating

administrative difficulties in regard to providing transportation,

would also clarify the entitlement of a teacher to quarters, quarters

allowance, or storage of household effects during the summer recess

period, as authorized by section 7(c) of Public Law 86-91.

At present some doubt arises as to such entitlement in the case of

a teacher who, although agreeing to teach during the subsequent
4 AMENDING OVERSEAS TEACHERS ACT

school year, resigns in order to return home during the summer recess.

The proposed amendment, by authorizing transportation at Government expense upon completion of a school year, would permit the

teacher to return to the United States without resigning. In such

cases, the teacher would be carried in a leave-without-pay status

during the summer recess, and entitlement to quarters or storage

would be clear because there would be no separation.

S. 841 will thus correct the chief problems that we have experienced

in operating under the Overseas Teachers Pay and Personnel Practices Act. On behalf of the Department of Defense, I urge that it

be enacted.

Mr. OLSEN. Any questions?

Mr. BROYHILL. Mr. Sompayrac, when we enacted Public Law

86-91, as you point out in the early part of your testimony, we considered that the oversea schoolteachers were in a different category

than the regular civil service employees in that the school year is

from 9 to 10 months?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes.

Mr. BROYHILL. In putting that law into effect, was the pay still

based on an annual basis even though it was recognized they only

worked 9 or 10 months?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. You will recall that Public Law 86-91 authorized

the Secretary of Defense to establish a school year, or to prescribe

what would constitute the school year. This was prescribed as not

more than 190 workdays but to include not less than 175 days of classroom instruction. A school year salary was established for that

period and that is what they received regardless of the actual calendar

length of the school year.

Mr. BROYHILL. They received the entire salary within that 190-day

period, or did they have it broken down in 12 calendar months?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. They received the entire salary in those 190 days.

Mr. BROYHILL. They got it it all in that period?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes.

Mr. BROYHILL. So during the summer recess when they had quarters allowance, and so forth, they were not receiving any salary at all?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. That is correct. They are in a nonpay status

during the summer recess.

Mr. BROYHILL. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. OLSEN. Mr. Wallhauser.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. How many teachers do we have overseas,

approximately?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Last year we had—this is total professional personnel, including principals, area superintendents, counselors, and so

forth-6,001. Next year we anticipate we will have around 6,500.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. Were there many instances where this law did

not apply properly, or just a few instances?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. I am sorry, I did not understand the question;

Mr. WALLHAUSER. Were there many instances where the need for

this legislation was felt or were there just a few instances?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. For the problem that would be taken care of by

section I, which is where the teacher agrees to serve for the next

school year and therefore is provided quarters during the summer

recess- and then fails to return, we do not have exact figures but we

think it is around 50 per year. Of the 50, I do not know how many
AMENDING OVERSEAS 'TEAL,lihRS ACT 5

would be excused as a result of this legislation but it probably would

be from one-half to three-fourths of them. ilV'e do have some that

simply do not live up to their agreement, but not many. But 50 is

enough to give us a headache.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. In the chairman's opening remarks he said the

length of the school year varies in different countries.

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. It varies on a calendar basis because of the way

the school year is prescribed. We may require up to 190 workdays

with not less than 175 days of classroom instruction. If for any

reason a school has to be closed for a week or two during the year—

as for example in Okinawa where they have had some severe hurricanes

and have had to close the school for a week or week and a half—the

days of classroom instruction required are added to the end of the year

so that the teacher may be forced to remain for a week longer than

was originally anticipated. But this is inherent in the teaching profession and the teacher receives just her school year salary although

the school year may have been lengthened a week or so beyond what

was anticipated.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. In other words, the Secretary of Defense sets

the standards? ,

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. As to the length of the school year, yes.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. Thank you.

Mr. BROYHILL. May I ask another question, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. OLSEN. Mr. Broyhill.

Mr. BROYHILL. In your statement you refer to schoolteachers that

-would be permitted to return home during the summer recess and

then return overseas at the beginning of the school year. They

would be carried on a leave-without-pay status during the summer

recess?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes.

Mr. BROYHILL. But they would be entitled to quarters and storage

allowance?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes.

Mr. BROYHILL. During the summer months they are on leavewithout-pay status anyway?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes.

Mr. BROYHILL. So actually whether they return home or not does

not affect the particular status, if they return home and go back at

the beginning of the school year?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. It would not affect them, but since a person to be

eligible for transportation must serve 12 calendar months overseas, if

a teacher wishes to return at the end of a school year, which is only

or 10 months, in order to get that transportation he must go through

the formality of resigning merely to be eligible for the transportation.

We accept their resignation as being advantageous to the Government

because we have no work for them. They come back to the United

States and we have to rehire them for the next year, whereas those

who remain overseas just are carried in a nonpay status during the

summer recess.

Mr. BROYHILL. This legislation would permit you to provide transportation to the United States and back to Europe during the summer

recess at Government expense both ways?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes. I would like to elaborate on that, if I may.

This may give the impression we are bringing all these teachers back
6 AMENDING OVERSEAS TEACHERS ACT

every year. We are not. We have prescribed tours of duty for various

oversea posts which apply to all employees who go to those posts.

The normal tour of duty is 2 years. Everywhere in Europe it is 2

years, in Japan it is 2 years, and only in hardship posts do we prescribe a period of less than 2 years.

The teachers are required, if they go to one of the posts where the

standard tour is 2 years, to sign an agreement to serve 1 year, but

they are told, "If you wish to serve during the next year you must

remain there during the summer, we will not provide you transportation back home, and if you do go back we will not hire you the

next year." So this requires them to remain 2 years in such an area

to get transportation.

We need this legislation only for the isolated cases where we feel it

is necessary to bring them back at the end of each year—Iceland,

Korea, and other isolated posts. At these places we have nothing for

them to do during the summer, there is no opportunity for them to

travel, and it is better to get them out of the area. So for those

areas we feel we need this provision, which will enable us to get them

back to the States and transport them back again without the formality of their having to resign and our having to rehire them.

Mr. BROYHILL. What about a schoolteacher who is recognized as an

able teacher and has served a 9- or 10-month period and wants to

come back to the United States—and let us say this is a post in Germany or some country you would not place in the category of an

isolated area and we will not use the word "blackmail" but suppose

she stated if she would be permitted to come back to the United States

and her transportation paid she would return and teach during the

next school year, and you said "No," and she came back, then you

would have to hire someone else.

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. We would have to hold firm and say, "You are a

fine teacher, we would like to have you back, but we simply will not

do it under those circumstances." We may lose her but we have to

hold firm or others will do the same.

Mr. BROYHILL. In Germany, what percentage of your teachers

only remain 1 year?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. We have about a 30-percent turnover of teachers

every year, and the average teacher has been overseas 2 years, so

effectively we get between 2 and 3 years of service on the average

from teachers who do go overseas.

Mr. OLSEN. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. BROYHILL. Yes.

Mr. OLSEN. If a teacher has a 2-year contract and she resigns at

the end of 1 year, would not this be regarded as a breach of contract,

and this would be on the record of the teacher wherever she goes; is

that not so?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Not necessarily. There is no breach of contract

because we only hire a teacher for 1 year. The reason for that is,

the majority of our teachers come from our established school systems

in the United States and the opportunity to travel and teach abroad

for 1 year is very attractive to them. Many school jurisdictions are

quite willing to give teachers a 1-year leave of absence or sabbatical to

permit them to do so, but most would object if the teacher said, "I

want to go for 2 years." For this reason, and to aid us in recruiting—

it is a problem to recruit competent teachers every year—we only
AMENDING OVERSEAS TEACHERS ACT 7

hire them for 1 school year but we make it clear at the time if they are

good they can stay, and many of them do, and after serving 1 year

many can get an extension from their school system to remain another

year. So if they resign at the end of the first year this is not a breach

of contract and it is not held against them.

Mr. BROYHILL. Referring again to your statement. By this

legislation we would permit the Government to provide transportation

to the United States and back to Europe for any teacher that you

would like to provide it for; however, you propose to make it applicable only to these isolated areas?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. That is all we do now. We only permit this in

the isolated areas or areas where we have tours of duty of less than 2

years.

Mr. BROYHILL. But this legislation would permit you to do it

everywhere if you found it desirable?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. It would permit us to do it everywhere if we

found it desirable.

Mr. BROYHILL. Take the isolated posts for employees other than

teachers, are there provisions in the statute to bring them home at

the end of 1 year and send them back?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. At the end of 1 year, yes.

Mr. BROYHILL. Would this legislation give you the same authority

for schoolteachers as for other employees?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. We already have the same authority for schoolteachers as for other employees in terms of transportation, but the

authority we now have requires serving 1 full calendar year and this

is to permit us, for teachers only, to reduce it to the school year,

whatever it happens to be.

Mr. BROYHILL. Thank you.

Mr. OLSEN. Any further questions?

Mr. WALLHAUSER. No questions.

Mr. OLSEN. I notice you contemplate some increase in the number

of teachers. There has been some discussion on the floor of the

House that there ought to be a reduction in civilian personnel with

the Army overseas, and that dependents should be brought home.

In the light of that, will you explain the reason for contemplating an

increase in the number of teachers?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. This increase in the number of teachers is not

predicated on any anticipated increase in the number of military or

civilian personnel overseas. It is based purely on the number of dependents that are coming of school age that keep crowding and

crowding our schools. If there should be a decision made to return

some of the dependents, then of course we would be able to reduce

the size of the schools.

Mr. OLSEN. With the present size of oversea personnel they have

the number of youngsters coming along that will require an increase

in the number of teachers?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes. We will need this increase in teachers

without increasing our military or civilian personnel.

Mr. BROYHILL. I believe you said you had about 6,000 teachers

now and expect 6,500 next year?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes.

Mr. BROYHILL. How many students do you have? You figure

6,000 or 6,500 is the total schoolteachers overseas in all areas?
8 AMENDING OVERSEAS TEACHERS ACT

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. In all areas, and it includes all professional

personnel, including principals, area superintendents, special assistants, nurses, counselors, and so on.

Mr. BROYHILL. How many students do you have?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. In our service-operated schools last year we had

127,600. Next year we anticipate we will have 139,000.

Mr. BROYHILL. Do you know how that compares with the pupilteacher ratio in the States?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes, sir; I have that.

In the Army the ratio is 25.5 students to each teacher; in the Navy

it is 23.5 to each teacher; in the Air Force it is 24 to each teacher.

The national average for the United States, as reported in the

National Education Association's Research Bulletin for February 1961

is 26.4 to every teacher. So we are just a pupil under that.

Mr. BROYHILL. You say there are 129,000 or 127,000 students?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. We had 127,600 last year.

Mr. BROYHILL. Attending our own schools?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROYHILL. We have a lot of the children of civilian and military personnel that are attending local schools in addition in many

areas, do we not?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROYHILL. Are there any cases where children of foreign nationals are attending our schools?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. There are a very small number, maybe a dozen

all together. They have been permitted to attend for, I imagine,

largely political reasons. I understand two or three in Tunisia, for

example, are attending our school at Wheelis Air Force Base. We

had spaces for these children, they were children of high government

officials, and for some reason they were permitted to attend our school,

but they are very few.

Mr. BROYHILL. I might observe that what I saw of our school

system abroad in 1955 indicated they had an excellent school system

where children of our oversea personnel were receiving a fine education,

certainly as good as in this country and in some instances maybe

better. It was an excellent school system and well managed.

Mr. OLSEN. It seems to me it is well for us to have that kind of

example around the world.

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes. Our biggest problem is finding adequate

school quarters. We have some very fine modern school buildings

that have been built, but they are totally inadequate for the number

of schoolchildren. We have bad to take barracks and convert them

and warehouses and convert them, but they do the best they can to

provide good classrooms. That is part of the problem.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. In the recruitment of these teachers, do you

often employ retired teachers from our U.S. school systems, or are

they active schoolteachers?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. They are usually active teachers presently in the

teaching profession. While we do take some that have been out of

the teaching profession for a year or two, we try to avoid that.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. The percentage of retired teachers would be

small?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Very small.

Mr. OLSEN. As a matter of information, how do you conduct your

recruitment?
AMENDING OVERSEAS TEACHERS ACT 9

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. We put on quite a drive in February and March

of each year. We have to recruit at that time for the next school

year. We make up about three teams of recruiters. Some of the

members of these teams are usually school principals or persons from

the school superintendents' offices in the Far East or in Europe.

We map out an itinerary for these teams to travel around the country

to interview prospective teachers and we send out a good bit of

advertising. At the major locations these teams will hit, we send

notices to the local civil service authorities, put them on the bulletin

boards, advise the newspapers that the teams will be there to interview prospective teachers, and we send notices to the teachers'

organizations in these locations, and word gets to the people in the

profession that recruiting teams will be in town at a certain location

on certain days and all who are interested can come down and apply.

These teams review their qualifications and usually will notify the

teacher then and there they will or will not take them or will have to

consider them further.

The recruiting teams then come back to Washington and decide on

the ones they will employ for each of the some 300 schools we have

overseas, and notify the teachers, and during the summer the processing goes on and ,they are shipped overseas.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. Do we have schools in Latin America?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. No. We have a school in Guantanamo Bay,

Cuba. That is the only one.

Mr. BROYHILL. Do you find that this 25 to 1 pupil-teacher ratio is

a proper one? Has there been any question or argument about

whether the schools are overcrowded or the pupils are not getting a

proper education as a result of the schools being too crowded and there

not being enough teachers?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes; we have had complaints on that score, not

serious

'

but we have exactly the same situation overseas as we have

here. Where we have a good school building with large classrooms

we may put as many as 35 pupils with one schoolteacher.

Mr. BROYHILL. But the complaints arise from inadequate facilities

rather than the ratio being too large?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. I think that is right. To keep our ratio at this

figure, where we do have big schools we pack them in. There may be

only 10 children for a particular class in some locations so your ratio

drops there.

Another problem we have is our inability to provide special facilities

such as gymnasiums and musicrooms and things of that kind.

Mr. BROYHILL. The fact you are that close to our national ratio here

is more of a coincidence than anything else, because you do have a

larger spread between the various classes than we have here?

Mr. SOMPAYRAC. Yes, but we are pretty much a counterpart of

what we are here. Here we have large classes and small classes, too,

so we end up being pretty comparable.

Mr. OLSEN. Any further questions?

We thank the witness for his appearance.

The subcommittee is now adjourned and we will now go into

executive session.

(Thereupon, the subcommittee proceeded into ex,cutive st*sion.)

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