Y4 ,e2/1: H 81138

HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

GOVERNMENT FAMILIES AND PERSONS

Storage

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON BANKING AND CURRENCY

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-EIGHTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

H.R. 7394

A BILL TO AMEND TITLE II OF THE HOUSING ACT OF 1959

TO EXTEND THE PROGRAM OF LOANS FOR HOUSING FOR

THE ELDERLY SO AS TO INCLUDE HOUSING FOR HANDICAPPED FAMILIES AND PERSONS

OCTOBER 21, 1963

Printed for the use of the Committee on Banking and Currency

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COMMITTEE ON BANKING AND CURRENCY

WRIGHT PATMAN, Texas, Chairman

ALBERT RAINS, Alabama

ABRAHAM J. MULTER, New York

WILLIAM A. BARRETT, Pennsylvania

LEONOR K. SULLIVAN, Missouri

HENRY S. REUSS, Wisconsin

THOMAS L. ASHLEY, Ohio

CHARLES A. VANIK, Ohio

WILLIAM S. MOORHEAD, Pennsylvania

ROBERT G. STEPHENS, JR., Georgia

FERNAND J. ST GERMAIN, Rhode Island

HENRY B. GONZALEZ, Texas

CLAUDE PEPPER, Florida

JOSEPH G. MINISH, New Jersey

CHARLES L. WELTNER, Georgia

RICHARD T. HANNA, California

BERNARD F. GRABOWSKI, Connecticut

CHARLES H. WILSON, California

COMPTON I. WHITE, JR., Idaho

CLARENCE E. KILBURN, New York

WILLIAM B. WINDALL, New Jersey

EUGENE SILER, Kentucky

PAUL A. FINO, New York

FLORENCE P. DWYER, New Jersey

SEYMOUR HALPERN, New York

JAMES HARVEY, Michigan

OLIVER P. BOLTON, Ohio

W. E. (BILL) BROCK, Tennessee

ROBERT TAFT, JR., Ohio

JOSEPH M. McDADE, Pennsylvania

SHERMAN P. LLOYD, Utah

BURT L. TALCOTT, California

DEL CLAWSON, California

Wm. SUMMERS JOHNSON, Clerk and Staff Director

JOHN R. STARK, General Counsel

JOHN E. BARRIERE, Professional Staff Member

ORMAN S. FINK, Minority Staff Member

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING

ALBERT RAINS,

WILLIAM A. BARRETT, Pennsylvania

LEONOR K. SULLIVAN, Missouri

THOMAS L. ASHLEY, Ohio

WILLIAM S. MOORHEAD, Pennsylvania

ROBERT G. STEPHENS, JR., Georgia

FERNAND J. ST GERMAIN, Rhode Island

HENRY B. GONZALEZ, Texas

II

Alabama, Chairman

WILLIAM B. WIDNALL, New Jersey

PAUL A. FINO, New York

FLORENCE P. DWYER, New Jersey

JAMES HARVEY, Michigan

JOSEPH M. McDADE, Pennsylvania

JOHN E. BARRIERS, Staff Director

JOHN J. McEwAN, Jr., Deputy Staff Director

KENNETH W. BURROWS, Economist

CASEY IRELAND, Minority Staff Member

•
CONTENTS

H.R.. 7394, a bill to amend title II of the Housing Act of 1959 to

extend the program of loans for housing for the elderly so as Page

to include housing for handicapped families and persons____ 1

Report on H.R. 7394, of Robert C. Weaver, Administrator,

HHFA, dated October 17, 1963 

Statement of—

Dean, Russell J. N., chairman, policy planning and legislation staff, Vocational Rehabilitation Administration; Department of Health, Education, and Welfare 20

Puth, Alvin D., assistant director, National Rehabilitation

Association; accompanied by William W. Lamprell, field

consultant, NRA 29

Roemer, Wellington F., president, Lucas County Society

for Crippled Children; member, Board of Toledo Society.

for Crippled Children; member, executive board of Indoor Sports, Inc.; and member, board of Goodwill

Industries 35

Spector, Sidney, Assistant Administrator, HHFA ; accompanied by Ashley Foard, assistant general counsel 3

Additional information submitted to the subcommittee by—

Housing and Home Finance Agency:

Proposed amendments to H.R. 7394 12

Appendix—A brief description of senior citizens' housing programs 13

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HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED FAMILIES

AND PERSONS

MONDAY, OCTOBER 21, 1963

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING OF THE

COMMITTEE ON BANKING AND CURRENCY,

Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room

1301, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Albert Rains (chair.. 

man)presiding.

Present: Representatives Rains (presiding) , Ashley, Stephens, St

Germain, Widnall, and Harvey.

Mr. RAINS. The committee will please be in order.

The Housing Subcommittee is meeting this morning for the purpose

of considering II.R. 7394, introduced by Mr. Ashley, of Ohio.

(H.R. 7394 follows:)

[H.R. 7394, 88th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend title II of the Housing Act of 1959 to extend the program of loans for

housing for the elderly so as to include housing for handicapped families and persons

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States

of America in Congress assembled, That the heading of title II of the Housing

Act of 1959 is amended by striking out "HOUSING FOR THE ELDERLY" and

inserting in lieu thereof "HOUSING FOR THE ELDERLY OR HANDICAPPED".

SEC. 2. Section 202 of the Housing Act of 1959 is amended—

(1) by striking out "elderly families and elderly persons" in subsections

(a) (1) and (a) (2) and inserting in lieu thereof in each instance "elderly

or handicapped families";

(2) by inserting at the end of subsection (a) (2) the following new sentence: "Not more than half of the dwelling units in the housing assisted by

any loan under this section may be occupied by handicapped families.";

(3) by amending subsection (d) (1) to read as follows:

"(1) The term 'housing' means structures suitable for dwelling use by

elderly or handicapped families which are (A) new structures, or (B)

provided by rehabilitation, alteration, conversion, or improvement of existing structures which are otherwise inadequate for proposed dwelling use

by such families.";

(4) by amending subsection (d) (4) to read as follows:

"(4) The term 'elderly or handicapped families' means families which

consist of two or more persons, the head of which (or his spouse) is sixtytwo years of age or over or is handicapped, and families which consist of a

single person who is sixty-two years of age or over or is handicapped. An

individual shall be considered handicapped (and his family a handicapped

family) (A) upon certification by a physician that such individual has a

physical impairment which can be expected to be of long-continued and

indefinite duration and (B) upon determination by the Administrator that

residence in a housing unit for the handicapped would assist such individual to engage in useful, productive activity."; and

1,
:2 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

( 5) by amending subsection (d) (8) to read as follows:

"(8) The term 'related facilities' means (A) new structures suitable for

use by elderly or handicapped families as cafeterias or dining halls, community rooms or buildings, workshops, or infirmaries or other inpatient or

outpatient health facilities, or other essential service facilities, and (B)

structures suitable for the above uses provided by rehabilitation, alteration,

conversion, or improvement of existing structures which are otherwise inadequate for such uses; and the term 'workshops' means rooms, including

tools and equipment, which are determined by the Administrator to be appropriate (but not elaborate or extravagant) for use by the elderly or handicapped families who are tenants of the housing for woodwork, painting,

or employment of other skills, or for the production of items which can,

if desired, be a source of income to the families who produce them."

Mr. RAINS. I would like to include in the record, prior to the beginning of the testimony, a letter addressed to our chairman, Mr.

Wright Patman, from Dr. Robert C. Weaver, the Administrator of

the Housing and Home Finance Agency, copies of which are on the

members' desks, which supports the objectives of the bill.

The letter referred to follows:)

HOUSING AND HOME FINANCE AGENCY,

Washington, D.C., October 17, 1963.

subject: H.R. 7394, 88th Congress (Representative Ashley).

Hon. WRIGHT PATMAN,

Chairman, Banking and Currency Committee,

House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: This is in further reply to your request for OUT views on

H.R. 7394, a bill to amend title II of the Housing Act of 1959 to extend the program of loans for housing for the elderly so as to include housing for handicapped

families and persons.

This bill would amend section 202 of the Housing Act of 1959 (the housing

for the elderly direct loan program) to authorize loans under that program to be

made for housing projects to be occupied by handicapped families or individuals

as well as the elderly. Not more than one-half of the dwelling units in a project

assisted by a loan made under section 202 could be occupied by handicapped families. An individual would be considered handicapped (and his family a handicapped family) upon certification by a physician that the individual has a

physical impairment which can be expected to be of a lengthy or indefinite duraation and upon determination by the Housing and Home Finance Administrator

that residence in a housing unit by the handicapped would assist the individual

to engage in useful, productive activity.

The bill would authorize loans made under the direct loan program to be used

for the rehabilitation or conversion of existing structures for use as housing for

the elderly or handicapped families. This provision would have the effect of

making loans under section 202 available for the rehabilitation or conversion of

existing structures for any housing for the elderly financed with a loan under the

program. Authority to finance rehabilitation of housing for the elderly was

removed from section 202 by the Senior Citizens Housing Act of 1962.

In addition, the bill would expand the definition of "related facilities" which

may be covered by a section 202 loan, to permit inclusion of workshops, including

rooms, tools, and equipment determined by the Administrator to be appropriate

for use by elderly or handicapped families for various types of work that may

provide a source of income to the families who produce them.

The Housing Agency recommends enactment of the bill with certain strengthening amendments. There is a need for a program to assist the handicapped so

that they may occupy housing which is especially designed to meet their physical

needs. There are an estimated 227,000 chronically handicapped people who are

confined to wheelchairs. Many of these people cannot at present pay the rentals

necessary to maintain the living quarters and facilities that would be provided

under the bill.

We recommend that a provision be added to the bill to grant special authority

for assisting housing for the handicapped under the section 207 demonstration

grant program administered in the Housing Agency. If such legislation were
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 0

enacted, grants could be provided for assisting dwelling units for the handicapped in conjunction with housing for low-income families being provided under

the FHA below-market-interest rate rental housing program ( the sec. 221 ( d)

(3) program), the direct loan program for housing for the elderly, and the public

housing program. This authority would enable us to gain valuable knowledge

and experience needed to guide our programs in the field of housing for the handicapped.

Suggested amendments to H.R. 7394 are being prepared and will be ready for

presentation to your committee when the Housing Agency appears at the hearing you have scheduled for October 21.

The Bureau of the Budget has advised that it has no objection to this report

from the standpoint of the administration's program.

Sincerely yours,

ROBERT C. WEAVER, Administrator.

Mr. RAINS. Members of the committee, because of the long interest

that Mr. Ashley has had in this, and, in fact, this is his brain child

completely, I am going to turn the gavel over to Mr. Ashley and he

is going to preside and call the witnesses today. So you can take the

chairman's seat, Mr. Ashley.

Mr. ASHLEY (presiding). Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for

according me this courtesy.

I must say that it is typical of the consideration which you have

shown to members of the subcommittee certainly in the 9 years that

I have served on it.

The first witness this morning is Mr. Sidney Spector, Assistant Administrator, Housing for Senior Citizens, of the Housing and Home

Finance Agency.

STATEMENT OF SIDNEY SPECTOR, ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR,

HOUSING AND HOME FINANCE AGENCY; ACCOMPANIED BY ASHLEY FOARD, ASSISTANT GENERAL COUNSEL

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. Spector, will you come forward, please?

Mr. SPECTOR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. Spector, we are very happy to have you here this

morning.

I must say that, speaking personally, in light of the letter of October

17, expressing the views of the Housing and Home Finance Agency,

which I am sure you had a hand in, preparing, I am personally delighted to have you here.

I think it was an excellent letter, and I am very deeply pleased that

the Agency and the administration has seen fit to endorse this legislation.

If you have a prepared statement, as I am sure you do, why, you

can proceed with that or you can proceed extemporaneously or whichever way you wish.

Mr. SPECTOR. Mr. Chairman, thank you. It is a pleasure to be here

this morning.

I do have a prepared statement, which is not too long, and if you

do not object I will go ahead and read the statement.

I have with me Mr. Ashley Foard, who is Assistant General Counsel

to the Housing and Home Finance Agency.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, it is a great pleasure

for me to represent the Housing and Home Finance Agency before

this subcommittee which over the years has done so much in the field
4 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

of housing for all of our citizens. We are grateful for your achievements which have helped to make ours the best-housed nation in the

world.

In recent years, your committee has been particularly effective in

developing legislation to provide housing for America's senior citizens.

We now have a basic set of programs providing Federal assistance to

finance good housing for older persons, and I am including, as an appendix to this statement, a brief description of these programs and

their progress.

We appreciate your invitation to us to comment on H.R. 7394 which

would provide new opportunities for the housing of handicapped persons. This would be done by broadening the present authority of the

Housing Administrator to make direct loans for housing for the

elderly. Loans would be authorized for housing projects to be occupied by handicapped families or individuals as well as by the elderly.

Not more than one-half of the dwelling units in the project could be

occupied by the handicapped. The bill would also permit workshops

to be provided in the projects, including rooms, tools and equipment

which would be appropriate for use by the elderly or handicapped

families for various types of work that may provide a source of income

to the families.

The Housing Agency recommends enactment of the bill with certain

strengthening amendments and the addition of special authority for

demonstration projects in this field, which I will discuss later.

THE PROBLEM

There is a great need for additional housing with the special design

features required for occupancy by handicapped persons. No Federal

program is designed specifically to meet that need.

Over 19 million persons suffer from various chronic conditions which

limit their activity to some degree.

And I might say that the data that we are using here are taken

from the U.S. National Health Survey.

Almost 4 million of them are completely unable to go to work, keep

house or go to school. Another 5 million are also limited in mobility.

Almost a million of this group are so restricted that they are confined

to their own homes except in emergencies.

One or more chronic conditions may cause limitations of activity.

Among the major causes, the two most frequently reported are heart

conditions and arthritis or rheumatism, each including over 3 million

persons. Some suffer from both. These are also the two groups which

include the largest number of persons unable to carry on their major

activities. High blood pressure and visual impairments each limit the

activity of over a million persons. Back or spine impairments and

difficulties with the lower extremities and hips, and several other

chronic conditions also limit activities. Paralysis limits activity for

nearly 700,000 people and over 55 percent of them (the highest percentage of any group) are unable to continue their major activities.

The most severe limitations in mobility, where people are confined

to their homes, occur among those with heart conditions, paralysis,

arthritis, and rheumatism, and visual impairments. The number totals

well over 600,000 persons. About half of the 250,000 persons who must
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

use wheelchairs are confined to their homes. Eighteen percent of those

with wheelchairs are in the age group from 65 to 74 and 43 percent

are 75 years of age or over. Nearly 700,000 persons require the use

of various braces nearly 275,000 have lost major extremities, about

half of whom have artificial limbs.

Of course, the greater the disability of the handicapped person, the

lower his income will be in most cases. His ability to obtain housing

is reduced accordingly.

UTILIZATION OF EXISTING PROGRAMS

Housing with special design features can now be provided under

the programs of the Housing Agency for senior citizens for a significant portion of the handicapped population—that is, those who are 62

years of age and over. Over 40 percent of the handicapped who are

wholly or partially limited in their major activity—unable to go to

work, keep house, or go to school—are 65 and over. These are people

who often suffer not only physical handicaps but, in addition, the

limitations of low incomes, declining health, more chronic conditions,

widowhood, and the loss of role in society.

However, handicapped families or persons who are not elderly are

generally not eligible for admission to housing for the elderly provided

under programs of the Housing Agency. The bill would amend the

authority for our direct loan program to permit handicapped persons

and families who are not elderly to occupy housing provided under

that program.

In addition, we suggest that provisions be added to the bill which

would make handicapped persons or families eligible for admission to

housing provided under the special FHA mortgage insurance program for the elderly.

We suggest that individual low-income handicapped persons be

made eligible for admission to low-rent public housing, including that

specially designed for the elderly. Under the present public housing

law low-income handicapped families may occupy low-rent housing

units, but a single low-income handicapped person may not, unless

he has attained the social security retirement age, or is under a disability as defined in the Social Security Act, or is the remaining member

of a tenant family.

Also, a low- or moderate-income handicapped person should be permitted to obtain low- or moderate-income housing provided under the

Federal Housing Act section 221 program, including the below market

rental housing program. Federal Housing Act section 221 housing is

available only for families and not individuals under the present law.

WORKSHOPS

The equipment and operations of workshops for use by the handicapped and elderly come within the-experience and under the programs of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare rather

than the Housing Agency. It is therefore suggested that H.R. 7394

be amended by removing the provisions which would per - ncing

the equipment and tools for workshops with proceeds 010444t en

a housing project is built under the direct loan pr.14 ; m as pro

in the bill. The loan could finance the provision s oom or space

24-967-63 2
6 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

a workshop either in the housing project or near the housing. The

Housing Agency would work with the HEW in carrying out this

phase of the program.

ADDITIONAL AMENDMENTS

The bill would provide that up to 50 percent of the units in a housing

project for the elderly financed with a direct loan could be occupied

by handicapped families or persons. We question whether such a

high proportion of the handicapped in any one housing project is

socially desirable for all concerned. We suggest, on the basis of the

best advice we can get, that no specific percentage should be enacted

into law, but that the agency have the opportunity to learn through

demonstration what the proper proportions might be. Consideration

must be given to advantages which may result from handicapped

persons associating and living with a normal mix of people. The law

should therefore, for the time being at least, leave this to administrative discretion.

Before a handicapped person could be admitted to a housing project

provided for the handicapped and elderly under the direct loan program, the Housing Administrator would be required by the bill to

make a specific finding that the "residence in a housing unit for the 

handicapped would assist such individual to engage in useful productive activity." A provision now in the direct loan law would be

deleted which gives the Administrator authority to prescribe regulations for admission to and occupancy of housing constructed under

the law.

We think that the requirement of "useful, productive activity"

might be too limiting in its implications. Many handicapped persons

can live relatively independent in specially designed housing, although

they might not be able to engage in "productive" activity, especially

if it only means vocational activity. They should, nevertheless, have

an independent living arrangement, preferably offering opportunities

for crafts or other purposeful activities, not necessarly "productive."

We therefore suggest eliminating the requirement for this finding

in H.R. 7394, and retaining the present authority of the Administrator

to prescribe regulations for admission to and occupancy of housing

constructed under the direct loan program.

DEMONSTRATION PROGRAM

There has been relatively little research on the special housing needs

of the handicapped. It would seem, however, that some of the special

design features and characteristics of housing for the elderly might

also have application to the handicapped of all age groups. These

features include avoidance of steps and thresholds; easy-to-reach

kitchen equipment; sitdown sinks, nonskid floors, sitdown tubs and

showers; wider doors and corridors; safety and grab bars in the bathroom; higher heat controls; waist-level ovens and safety shutoffs on

stoves; easily accessible wall plugs; and dwelling units whose size

and design permit easy maintenance.

With the addition of ramps and design refinements to fit individual

cases, it would be possible to test out the extent to which senior citizen
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 7

projects could provide suitable housing for handicapped persons who

do not need continuous nursing attention.

In assisting housing for the handicapped, we need facts and guidance which can come only from experience. We currently are providing substantial assistance to the construction of a 150-unit, lowrent housing project to be built by the Toledo Metropolitan Housing

Authority 75 units would be designed for the handicapped of any

age, and the remainder for the elderly. The design and testing of

this project will be financed by a grant of approximately $106,000

under the low income housing demonstration program authorized by

the Housing Act of 1961. The development cost will be financed under the regular low-rent public housing program. We hope this project may provide answers to some of our questions.

There is a need to explore other ways of providing housing for the

handicapped and to learn more about the types of housing required.

We believe specially designed housing for the handicapped should

be provided in both rental units and individual homes, and in a variety

of types of housing and methods of financing. This would provide

opportunities for evaluating the kinds of housing environment which

would be most likely to succeed, would permit experimentation with

designs and standards, and would offer the opportunity to test the

market among various groups of the handicapped—all of which we

know far too little about. At the same time we would be building

while we are learning.

We therefore recommend that a provision be added to H.R. 7394

which would authorize up to $2 million in grants to be made to public

or private bodies for demonstrations of low income housing for the

handicapped and means of providing the housing. We suggest that

this be made a separate authorization in the existing demonstration

program authorized by the Housing Act of 1961 for low income

housing.

Under the suggested demonstration program for housing for the

handicapped, the grants could be used in conjunction with other programs of the Housing Agency. For example a grant could be combined with a below-market interest rate FHA insured mortgage to

build a low rental housing project, part of which would consist of

specially designed units to be occupied by low income handicapped

persons and families. Grants could also be used in conjunction with

Federal assistance to housing under the low-rent public housing program, and the direct loan program for housing for the elderly. A

method of financing specially designed sales housing might also be

demonstrated with the assistance of the grant program.

In low-rent public housing, grants could pay for the extra costs

of designing and including special features for the handicapped.

They could be used for the construction of multipurpose centers and

other related facilities. In the direct loan or FHA projects, grants

could be used to pay for the added costs of special design features and

related facilities. Because of their experimental nature, it is likely,

that projects sponsored by nonprofit groups or limited-dividend corporations under the FHA below-market program and the direct loan

program would require grants for a substantial part of the cost of

special units as an incentive to assuming the risks involved in developing such untested housing projects.
8 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

We need to build and evaluate various combinations of living.arrangements such as, handicapped families living with other families

of all age groups in varying proportions, handicapped persons living

in a facility with senior citizens, handicapped persons living in a building or groups of residences of their own, but as part of a larger project

for all age groups, and handicapped persons in individually owned,

but specially adapted homes.

These grants could be available to finance the construction of activity centers, and other related facilities in the projects, as is common

in the various programs for the elderly. However, the operation and

administration of these facilities should be a responsibility of the community. These centers should be available not only to project residents,

but also to other handicapped and elderly persons in the neighborhood.

The development of housing for the handicapped should be accompanied by the social and health services necessary to sustain activity

and maximum independence. In this field, as in the elderly programs,

we would cooperate with the Department of Health, Education, and

Welfare to insure that such services are available and that proper

standards will be maintained. In addition, the Department of HEW

would assume the vocational rehabilitation aspects since they have

on-going programs and a vast amount of experience in this area.

The enactment of H.R. 7394 with the amendments we have suggested

would, we believe, provide the basis for a sound program of housing

for the handicapped. I would like to submit for the record a draft of

our suggested amendments to the bill.

(The draft referred to appears on p. 12.)

The Bureau of the Budget has advised that there is no objection to

the presentation of this testimony from the standpoint of the administration's program. Thank you.

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. Spector, thank you very much for an excellent

statement. It is very comprehensive and thorough and, I think, quite

imaginative. We are dealing in an area to which no considerable attention hitherto has been directed. Is that not true?

Mr. SPECTOR. That is true, Mr. Chairman. We have not had special

programs in the field of housing in this area of handicapped people.

We need to gather a vast amount of information on the kinds of housing that would be suitable for people who are handicapped and yet

who could live in an independent environment.

Mr. ASHLEY. I think you have indicated your views as to how our

housing programs can best meet this objective.

What you are saying is that we have had, in the beginning, a program in the public assistance area, in the public housing, under the

demonstration program of 1961.

Mr. SPECTOR. Yes, sir.

. Mr. ASHLEY. And you are saying that this bill that we are considering today would amend section 202 of the direct loan program.

This, you indicate agreement with, and you go further and say that,

in addition to this, in order to meet the needs of another very important segment of the population, our handicapped people, that you

would amend the bill to permit housing for the handicapped under the

mortgage guarantee program, section 221; is that correct?

. Mr. SPECTOR. Yes, sir. One of the things we feel strongly about

is that handicapped persons of all ages ought to have an opportunity

to live in a normal environment.
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 9

This is the objective of all housing. Handicapped families with

children should be able to live in units that are specially designed to

sustain independence in regular housing, no matter how it is financed.

The below-market, low- and moderate-income program of section

221 (d) (3) would be an excellent way of achieving moderate rents for

the moderate-income handicapped persons and families as well as

an opportunity for them to live in a normal environment. With some

assistance in the way of grants that I mentioned, this could be feasible.

Mr. ASHLEY. Yes, I see your point there. Attention has been directed to incorporating the handicapped into the public housing program, and what we would be doing would be blending with our projects

for the elderly, handicapped people of various ages, and you think

that this might not be totally desirable in terms of the social goals

that we are trying to meet?

Mr. SPECTOR. I think, Mr. Ashley, that large numbers of handicapped persons living with the elderly would not be socially desirable

either for the handicapped families or the elderly.

One of the reasons that we have housing for the elderly is that many

of them desire to live in an environment of older persons, independently, in a regular neighborhood, with children in the area, but not

necessarily in the housing project itself.

Secondly, as far as handicapped persons and their families are concerned, large numbers of them living with older persons might create

a situation where it would not be fair to the children of a handicapped

family to have to live in an environment with just older persons or

other handicapped persons. They ought to have an opportunity to

live with other normal children.

So what we are thinking of here is to provide housing opportunities

for handicapped families in all of our programs rather than in just one.

Mr. ASHLEY. I think that makes good sense, and I certainly am in

accord with your view that it should rest with the discretion of the

agency rather than to be incorporated into the bill, such as the percentage of the handicapped in a section 202 project or in that type of

project, because in the final analysis this should be a matter of determination for the Administrator or somebody acting for him.

Mr. SPECTOR. Yes, sir. What the proportions ought to be is something that we really have to learn.

Mr. ASHLEY. Yes, of course, and under the 1961 demonstration programs there are possibilities for that?

Mr. SPECTOR. Yes.

Mr. ASHLEY. That is all I have at the moment. Mr. Widnall ?

Mr. WEDNALL. Yes Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Spector, I think that this program is highly motivated and you

have given a very good statement in connection with it.

I do have some questions mainly in the area of definition. I particularly want to know to what extent you must be disabled in order

to qualify under this and who will make that determination? Just

the Administrator of the program?

Mr. SPECTOR. Mr. Widnall, in Congressman Ashley's bill there is a,

definition which states that an individual shall be considered handicapped, and his family a handicapped family—upon certification by

a physician that such individual has a physical impairment which

can be expected to be of long-continued and indefinite duration and
10 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

upon determination by the Administrator that residence in a housing unit for the handicapped would assist such individual to engage in

useful, productive activity.

We have suggested in our testimony the retention of part A but not

of part B, which, we think, is a little too limited.

Mr. WIDNALL. Well, Mr. Spector, how large can the family be?

If the head of the household is disabled and is 62 or over, and is certified to by a physician that he has a physical impairment, which can

be expected to be of long-continued and indefinite duration, how many

other members of the family, who have an earning capacity, can be

included to make this a family to qualify? Is there any limitation

• on family income at ?

Mr. SPECTOR. In the direct loan program, Mr. Widnall, there is

a limitation on income. We have a limitation of $4,800 per couple

and $4,000 for a single person. So, to be eligible for housing in section 202 of the direct loan program, these limitations would have to

be observed.

We also have limitations, as you know, in section 221 (d) (3) of the

FHA below-market program.

Mr. WIDNALL. You say $4,800 for a couple?

Mr. SPECTOR. Yes.

Mr. WIDNALL. Suppose there are more than two in the family?

The definition is not limited to a couple. Suppose the family consists of two or more persons?

Mr. SPECTOR. In our program for housing for the elderly, under 

202, as it is now, it ordinarily is not the case.

It would be a very rare case where there would be more than two,

so these limits have been set on that basis in the past.

Mr. WIDNALL. This definition does not limit it though. This definition enlarges it.

Mr. SPECTOR. Well, this would be the income of the family, and

would be the limitino. element.

Mr. WIDNALL. Well, I do not feel it is pinned down enough as to

definition. It clearly says it means families which consist of two or

more persons.

You could, conceivably, have a much larger income than the $4,800

and still qualify under this bill.

Mr. SPECTOR. I am sure if this bill were passed we would review our

income limits and make some determination as to whether the income

limits ought to be raised for larger families or not, under the section

202 program.

As of now, this would be the limit that we would think of for a

family and 

Mr. WIDNALL. I understand that, Mr. Spector, and I believe you

are completely honest in what you are answering on this, but I am

bothered as to how far you can go with respect to this because it

seems to me that this does expand current limitations.

Mr. SPECTOR. My offhand opinion, Mr. Widnall, is that we would

follow the family income limits that we use for section 221 ( d) (3) .

Mr. WIDNALL. Thank you. In giving serious consideration to this, I

do believe that the Congress would want to restrict it to the low-income

families and certainly have it nailed down pretty well as to what constitutes "disability."
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 11

Now, I am particularly bothered by the fact that within Government we have the military departments, public housing, and others,

and they all vary in their definitions as to what constitutes "disability."

Is this going to be determined purely and simply by the administrator of the program?

Mr. SPECTOR. Well, under our suggestion, the regulations with regard to admission and occupancy of such housing would be developed

by the Administrator of the Housing Agency.

Essentially, we feel that the marginal point is reached when nursing

attention is required. In our programs today, for example, older persons can live in such housing if they are housing and if they are not

nursing homes.

So the point at which nursing attention, skilled nursing attention, is

required would be the margin at which persons probably would not

be admitted to such housing.

Mr. WIDNALL. I am interested in your recapitulation of the numbers of people who have chronic conditions that cause limitation of

activities.

At the top of page 3 of your statement you say high blood pressure

and visual impairment each limit the activities of over 1 million

persons.

Now, do you envision that a great many people who suffer from

high blood pressure or from visual impairment, will occupy these new

quarters and, if so, what I have in mind is this: The certification is

made by a physician. I have seen physician certifications for a number

of people with respect to getting them out of the service and with

respect to other things, where opinions differ greatly as between physicians and if it depends on the finding of just one physician in the

case of; say, high blood pressure or visual impairment, it seems to me

that this program could go pretty far afield.

Mr. SPECTOR. My own view is that only persons who need such housing badly will desire to come into the specially designed units or will

be admitted to it. The definitions used, and the administration of

the program will be careful to provide such housing only to those who

really need it; the added cost would be for those who would be most

suitable for such housing.

Mr. WIDNALL. That is all at this time, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. ASHLEY. I might just say, in response to a comment of Mr.

Widnall's, that Federal agencies and State agencies presently spend

$550 million a year to aid disabled persons: Aid to the blind, aid for

crippled children, and all the rehabilitation programs.

The thing that interests me is that in 1961 there were 100,000 handicapped people who became, as it were "the Class of 1961," who went

through rehabilitation programs. This costs about $600 for each person rehabilitated.

In 1962 the return to the Federal Gcvernment in greater tax revenues from these people was about $200 for each person rehabilitated.

It is the thinking of the author of this bill that an adequate solution

to housing needs of the handicapped is likely to reduce direct assistance and to secure continued success of our rehabilitation programs

and a more productive life for these handicapped people.

If I understand the thrust of the questions of my good friend from

New Jersey, I want him to know that our views on this are very much

in accord as far as the purpose of the program is concerned.
12 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

Mr. Rains, do you have some questions?

Mr. RAINS. I have a question.

First of all, Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest that the amendments which Mr. Spector referred to be included in the record for the

benefit of the committee in executive session, and I would also like to

ask that the appendix or the addenda at the end of Mr. Spector's statement be included in the record.

Mr. ASHLEY. Without objection, it is so ordered.

(The documents referred to follow:)

HOUSING FOR THE HANDICAPPED

AMENDMENTS OF H.R. 7394 PROPOSED BY HOUSING AND HOME FINANCE AGENCY

On page 1, amend the title of the bill to read as follows: "A bill to authorize

the provision of Federal assistance for housing for handicapped families and

persons.".

On page 2, strike out lines 3 through 6 and redesignate the clauses of section

2 accordingly.

On page 2, strike out lines 15 and 16 and insert in lieu thereof the following:

"(3) by striking out the first sentence of subsection (d) (4) and inserting in

lieu thereof the following :"

On page 2, lines 20 and 21, strike out "families which consist of" and insert

in lieu thereof "such term also means".

On page 2, line 22, strike out "An individual" and insert in lieu thereof "A

person".

On page 2, line 24, strike out " (A) ".

On page 2, lines 24 and 25, strike out "such individual" and insert in lieu

thereof "the person".

On page 3, strike out lines 1 through 4 and insert in lieu thereof "to be of long-continued and indefinite duration and the impairment is not of such degree

that skilled nursing or hospital care is required."; and".

On page 3, strike out lines 15 through 22 and insert in lieu thereof "inadequate

for such uses.".

ISM 3. The first sentence of section 207 of the Housing Act of 1961 is amended

by—

(1) striking out "grants, not exceeding" and inserting in lieu thereof

"grants (i) in amounts aggregating not to exceed"; and

(2) inserting the following at the end of said sentence before the period: "and (ii) in additional amounts aggregating not to exceed $2,000,000 to public or private 'bodies or agencies, 'subject to such terms and conditions as he shall prescribe, for the purpose of demonstrating the types of housing that will assist handicapped families (as that term is defined in section 202 of the Housing Act of 1959) of low income, and the means of providing such housing."

SEC. 4. Section 221 (c) of the National Housing Act is amended by adding at the end thereof the following sentence: "Any handicapped person as defined in section 202 of the Housing Act of 1959 may be construed to be a family within the meaning of the terms 'family' or 'families' as those terms are used in this section 221."

SEC. 5. Section 231 of the National Housing Act is amended by adding at the end thereof the following subsection :

"(f) Notwithstanding any of the provisions of this section, the housing pro- vided under this section may include living units which are specially designed for the use and occupancy of any handicapped person or family as defined in section 202 of the Housing Act of 1959, and such special facilities as the Com- missioner deems adequate to serve the handicapped persons or families. The Commissioner may also prescribe procedures to secure to handicapped persons or families preference or priority of opportunity to rent the living units specially designed for their use and occupancy."

SEC. 6. Section 2 of the United States Housing Act of 1937 is amended by add- ing the following preceding the last comma in the second sentence of paragraph (2) thereof: "or who is handicapped as defined in section 202 of the Housing Act of 1959".
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 13

APPENDIX

A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF SENIOR CITIZENS HOUSING PROGRAMS AND PROGRESS AS OF

JUNE 30, 1963

With the passage of the Housing Act of 1961, the Housing and Home Finance

Agency has a basic set of programs which seek to meet the varied housing needs

of America's senior citizens primarily by providing several methods of financial

assistance, each appropriate to the objectives of the particular program in which

It is used. These programs include low-rent housing with Federal contributions, direct loans at low rates of interest, and mortgage insurance for rental

and individually owned housing and for proprietary nursing homes.

More effective organization

Early in 1961, the Office of Housing for Senior Citizens was created by the

Housing and Home Finance Administrator to assist in coordinating the policies

and standards of these senior citizen housing programs. Actual operation and

administration, however, continue as the responsibility of the operating agencies: the Public Housing Administration, the Community Facilities Administration, and the Federal Housing Administration.

Types of programs

The Public Housing Administration administers the low-rent housing program

for the elderly and provides Federal financial and technical assistance to local

housing authorities in this field. Annual contributions are made by PHA to

cover a deficit in the debt service charges for bonds sold by the local housing

authorities to obtain their permanent financing. By virtue of these contributions, a local housing authority can make suitable housing available to the

elderly at very low rentals.

The Community Facilities Administration administers the program of direct

loans from the Federal Government to nonprofit groups, consumer cooperatives,

and qualified public agencies to assist them in sponsoring rental housing for

older families and persons whose incomes are above the public housing limit,

but below the amount needed to pay rentals for suitable housing otherwise

available.

The mortgage insurance program is administered by the Federal Housing

Administration and is available to assist both profit and nonprofit groups in the

construction or rehabilitation of rental housing for senior citizens. The regular

mortgage insurance program for sales housing is also administered by the

Federal Housing Administration and provides assistance to those elderly persona

who can afford and want to buy their own homes. The program of mortgage

insurance for nursing homes is also administered through the Federal Housing

Administration. Nursing homes serve other than just elderly patients, of course,

but older people make up the greatest proportion of their patients.

CURRENT PROGRESS

Senior citizens housing

This administration continues, as it has since 1961, to give major emphasis to

the acceleration of activity in the field of housing for our Nation's senior citizens.

Applications for the three major rental housing programs as of June 30, 1963,

totaled nearly 162,000 units and a dollar volume of just under $2 billion. Over

70 percent of these units were included in applications received since January

1961 and their total number increased by over three and a half times by the end

of June 1963 as compared to the total at the end of the 5-year period from

1956-60.

The long-term impact on helping to meet the needs of the elderly is indicated

even more significantly by the increase of commitments in these three programs

since the end of 1960. As of June 30, 1963, the total number of units under

commitment had reached almost 101,000 with an investment potential of almost

$1.3 billion, compared to less than 28,000 units and $330 million for the 5-year

period ending in 1960.

During the 1956-60 period, a total of approximately 4,300 units with a dollar

volume of just under $53 million had been completed. In sharp cstgu4

t the

acceleration in activity through June 30, 1963, had resulted in thelOaleitetting over 23,000 units, providing housing for nearly 35,000 older people, wiffi*-

investment of approximately $300 million. In addition, as of Jane 30, 1963, 4,A

total of about 28,500 units were under construction.

'

24-967-63----3

der
14 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

Nu 2'3 ing homes

The nursing home program has also made rapid progress in the past 21/2

years. Applications rose from 2,468 beds and insurance of about $13 million

at the end of 1960 to 38,000 beds and $243 million on June 30, 1963. Commitments rose from about 900 beds and $4.6 million at 1960's end to over 20,000

beds and insurance of $123 million through the first half of calendar 1963. The

number of beds insured rose dramatically during this period from less than 200

beds and mortgage insurance of $600,000 to over 13,000 beds and nearly $81 million in insurance.

Summary

The Housing and Home Finance Agency's programs offering financial assistance to the development of specially designed housing for senior citizens are continuing to make rapid progress. Already, a total of over 50,000 units, providing good, suitable dwellings for 75,000 older people are either under construction or completed. As with our housing programs, the nursing home

program also is expanding rapidly. While activity, especially in 1960 has been accelerating rapidly, current needs are far in excess of the available supply.

Mr. RAINS. I do not think there will be any great difference in our minds, Mr. Spector, about the need.

There will be some—as evidenced by the questions asked by Mr. Widnall—some ideas of trying to tie it down to reasonable limits, and on that I would like to ask two or three questions.

One has to do with the income of the people involved, because under the housing for the elderly program, which this bill would actually

serve as an amendment to, we have income limitations and so forth.

I will pose this question: Take a man who is totally disabled but is drawing a total and permanent disability from the Federal Government.

Now, you do not visualize people of that type, with incomes in that

range, being able to participate in this type of a program, do you?

Mr. SPECTOR. Well, to be able to participate, for example, in public housing, low rent, he would have to meet the income and means

test limits of public housing.

Mr. RAINS. You mean to say that you think the income limits then

on this bill would be patterned and fashioned to the income limits of the public housing legislation? Is that correct?

Mr. SPECTOR. No, sir only for public housing. Now, for the direct loan program they would be patterned after the income limits that

we have set for that program.

For section 221 ( d) (3) they would be patterned after the limits of that section, so that the particular programs would determine what the income limits would be.

Mr. RAINS. Then I am worried a little bit about the bill from the standpoint of who would be eligible, as evidenced by Mr. Widnall's questions.

I will say this to Mr. Widnall, if it is as difficult for a handicapped

person to qualify as being disabled, as it is for a person under social security to be able to qualify I do not think he needs to have much

worry about it, frankly.

That is one of the most difficult things to do that I know. A man has to be in his coffin before they will approve him under the social security

program. But I do think that you would have to put some safeguards around the.legislation as to who actually would be eligible on the dis- ability angle and also as to the income limit. That ought to be spelled out specifically.
HOUSING' FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPIY 15

It seems to me that this legislation could, as Mr. Ashley, the author

of the bill, has said, and likely would, help to reduce considerably the

payments that our Government is now making to all types of institutions for the care of the disabled.

Do you not think it would have some allevi ating effect on the cost

there if we pass this particular bill; that it would help in a way to cut

down on the cost of a lot of the handicapped that we are caring for

under other programs?

Mr. SPECTOR. Well, to the extent that it would provide an environment in which handicapped persons could live more independently

with rentals within their means, I think it would be a great saving;

yes, sir.

Mr. RAINS. Of course, we have under the Veterans' Administration

now, a section that provides for the Government to pay 50 percent of

the cost of a home, and they are beautiful homes,. for paraplegic vet•-

erans. Here the Government participates to the extent of paying 50

percent of the cost of their house. I am proud of the help we have

given these deserving veterans.

Mr. ASHLEY. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that 7,500 homes have

been built under that section out of a total eligibility of 8,900.

Mr. RAINS. In other 'words, 8,900 people were eligible and 7,500 took

advantage of it? That is an amazing figure.

How do you visualize the use of the proposed grants?

Would you think that would be handled by private institutions, or

are you thinking about studies to be made by colleges or to be made by

certain groups?

What is in your mind as to that statement?

Mr. SPECTOR. We have in mind something of this order: For example, many church groups now are sponsors of housing, let's say,

for the elderly, or they might be sponsors of housing for moderateincome families under 221(d) (3) , and some of these groups, nonprofit

groups or limited dividend corporations, might be willing to have a

certain number of units in a regular housing development designed

for handicapped persons. In order to make it feasible financially

for the sponsoring group, as well as for the other residents who may

be living there, we might make a grant to the nonprofit group for the

added cost of the specially designed features in the units that would

be occupied by handicapped persons and their families—for the elements that would make living easier and more independent for handicapped persons, and that might be financed out of these grant funds.

Mr. RAINS. Several years ago this committee passed a little amendment to the bill that provided a certain amount of money—maybe it

was $500,000, I do not remember the exact figure at this particular

moment—to study the specially designed farm housing, that was done

by two or three universities, land-grant colleges, in the country.

And while it might be almost a forgotten record down in your

agency, it is being used today by the Farmers Horne Administration to

good advantage.

-So I-make the suggestion that there are an awful lot of smart people out in these colleges and universities and groups of various types

like you have talked about, who have had more experience with these

problems than we have, and I would hope that if this bill becomes -law.

that You would use some of those people.
16 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

Mr. SPECTOR. We certainly would. We hope that many of these

would be tied in with the groups that would be sponsoring housing for

handicapped people.

Mr. RAINS. I asked you first about the people with the high blood

pressure, or Mr. Widnall did, rather, who to my mind would not be

eligible under this. Now, I ask you about the other extreme.

You realize, of course, in the housing field we now have a nursing

home program, and we have housing for the elderly. The nursing

home will take care of those people who are ill, so to speak.

You would not expect to put in housing for the handicapped, just

as we do not put in housing for the elderly, the convalescing cases of

people who are ill and so forth, who by right ought to be in a nursing

home, would you?

Mr. SPECTOR. No, that is one thing I do want to stress, Mr. Chairman, and that is that this housing would not be for those who need

continuous skilled nursing attention.

This would be for those who could live relatively independently

without what might be called institutional staffing arrangements.

When skilled nursing is needed, and on a permanent basis, they

might have to be moved to a nursing home.

Mr. RAINS. There is no doubt but what there is a field beyond

which only the nursing care and the nursing homes, with adequate

provisions, would be necessary, but you would not expect to put that

type of a case in one of these handicapped housing units?

Mr. SPECTOR. No, sir.

Mr. RAINS. I would like to say that I am delighted to see that

you have my longtime friend, Ashley Foard, with you. I am delighted to see you, Ash. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. Harvey?

Mr. HARVEY. How many of the present tenants in public housing

are handicapped?

Mr. SPECTOR. I did not get your question, sir.

Mr. HARVEY. I say, How many of the present tenants of public

housing are handicapped?

Mr. SPECTOR. I do not think we have figures on the number who

are now living in public housing, who are categorized as handicapped.

We do know, in New York City, there has been a special program

for the handicapped by the public housing authority but as far as

general figures are concerned, I do not believe we have any.

They just live normally with the rest of the population, although

there are some 

Mr. HARVEY. Would you not think that would be important as to

the needs of this type of a program, to know how attractive this sort

of program would be to the handicapped?

Mr. SPECTOR. I think, Mr. Harvey, that is why we are suggesting

doing this on a demonstration basis. We can thus learn something

with regard to the specific demands in the market, an,d the kind of

housing that would be suitable.

Mr. .'HARVEY. Well, let me as you this: How many of the handicapped would also be classified as elderly?

Mr. SPECTOR. I believe that the figures are about 5 million of those

who are handicapped to some extent in their major activity would

also be 62 years of age and over.
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 17

Mr. ASHLEY. If I might interrupt for a moment, Mr. Harvey, I

have some similar figures from the Public Health Service which

might be of interest in this regard.

The numbers of handicapped do not appear to be as bad as those

of the elderly, but there are, outside our hospitals, some 4 million

handicapped persons, as estimated by the Public Health Service. Of

these, 64 percent are members of families receiving less than the

national medium income of $4,000.

Mr. HARVEY. I do not understand this, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I do not know the source of the information that you

are reading from 

Mr. ASHLEY. I said the Public Health Service is the source of the

figures.

Mr. HARVEY. Unfortunately, they are not witnesses here today and

Mr. Spector is, and it seems to me that they should either be called

or we should look to him for the answers.

My question was, How many of the handicapped would also be classified as elderly? And then my other question was the percentage of

those living in public housing today who were handicapped. Because

I think they are both very pertinent questions to this particular

field.

Mr. WIDNALL. Will the gentleman yield?

MT. HARVEY. Yes.

Mr. WIDNALL. I believe the figures whereby the chairman showed

there were 4 million handicapped in the United States, but that is

not pinned down to the categories involved in this bill, and I agree

with you, Mr. Harvey, that we ought to get some more intelligent

figures on that to pin down the age brackets.

Mr. ASHLEY. We do have other witnesses, of course.

Mr. HARVEY. Did you conclude your answer on that, Mr. Spector?

I am not certain. Could I ask you to repeat it?

My question was, How many of the handicapped would also be

classified as elderly?

Mr. SPECTOR. Mr. Chairman, I think I have a figure here that

might be helpful.

There are 14 million who are limited to some degree in their major

activities 

Mr. HARVEY. That is 14 million in all age groups who are limited?

Mr. SPECTOR. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Mr. HARVEY. Where do we get the 19 million?

Mr. SPECTOR. 19 million are all limitations in activity.

The 14 million are limitations in their major activity to some degree, that is, the ability to go to work or to go to sc • • - e care of

the homes, et cetera. vitits1 ja

Forty percent of that 14 million or 5.5 miff re 62 yea .6. age

A

or over.

Mr. WIDNALL. Will you yield ?,

Mr. HARVEY. Yes. ors

as.

Mr. WIDNALL. I just do not follow these figures at all. Pt

In talking about medicare, it was said that there are 18,,

65 or over, who are supposed to need medicare.

Now, you are talking about a lower figure that starts with 62, as I

understand it.
18 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

Mr. SPECTOR. Mr. Widnall, the age that is used in the law for housing for the elderly is 62 years of age or over, and so the figures here

are based on that 62 as being 

Mr. WIDNALL. Well, they should be larger than the 65 or over figures used in order to sell the medicare program, and we are told 18

million people 65 or over should come under the medicare program,

and you are saying at this point, 62 or over, there are only about 6

million who need this type of help.

Mr. SPECTOR. Well, I do not know how the figures were calculated

for medicare, Mr. Widnall.

These figures I have here are taken from the U.S. health survey,

indicating 19 million as the total of all age groups who have some

limitation in activity.

Mr. HARVEY. And your answer was that out of that 19 million

approximately 5 to 6 million would also be eligible. Is that correct ?

Mr. SPECTOR. It is approximately correct. Let me do it this way

and maybe we can clear it up.

There are 19 million who have some limitation in activity. Of that

19 million, 14 million have a limitation in their major activity.

Five million have other limitations which are not a major activity.

So we have 14 million out of the 19 million who have a limitation

in their major activity and of that 14 million, who have a limitation

in their major activities, approximately 5.5 million are 65 years of age

and over, rather than 62—which I mentioned previously.

Mr. HARVEY. NOW, that we have those figures, let me ask you this:

19 million is a lot of people. Now, what is your goal in your particular program?

This is a new program we are embarking on, and I think, the population now is 190 million, and we are talking about 10 percent of the

country.

What is the goal of your agency here as far as this program is

concerned?

Mr. SPECTOR. The stress here is on a limited program in which we

would have demonstrations and in which we would learn something

of the magnitude of the problem, the nature of the demand, the size

of the demand, and the quality of the housing.

And we are only recommending that $2 million be available in our

demonstration program to assist in this whole idea.

Mr. HARVEY. Let me ask you this then: There is now a $120 a year

subsidy for the elderly. Am I correct ?

Mr. SPECTOR. In low-rent public housing.

Mr. HARVEY. In low-rent public housing. Now, how much would

you add to that for the handicapped?

Mr. SPECTOR. We would not be amending that particular program.

• What we might be doing here is to include a proportion of the cost

of some special design features in certain units. Suppose

Mr. HARVEY. Well, you would be amending it though if you have

-5 to 6 million who are handicapped and elderly, would you not? You

would be granting a double subsidy?

Mr. SPECTOR. Well, no; as of now, elderly persons, who are handicapped and are relatively independent, can already live in the direct

loan program, under section 202 which this bill refers to. They already can do so.
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 19

Mr. HARVEY. And handicapped persons can already live in the regular low-rent housing, can they not?

Mr. SPECTOR. Those handicapped persons, who come under the

definition of the Social Security Act, who are totally and permanently

disabled and who are of all ages, can live in public housing.

Now, those handicapped persons who have slight handicaps, and

can live in normal conditions, they can live in public housing just as

anybody else can if they meet the income limits. -

Mr. HARVEY. But it still seems to me that there is a double subsidy

here that we are talking about.

Mr. SPECTOR. Well, there is 

Mr. HARVEY. If you have 5 million who are both elderly and both

handicapped then it seems to me that you are not only talking about

the $120 a year subsidy but you are talking about this 

Mr. SPECTOR. Could Mr. Foard comment on this?

Mr. HARVEY. Yes.

Mr. FOARD. The authority for $120 per unit runs only to the elderly,

and the bill 

Mr. HARVEY. Runs only to what? I did not hear you.

Mr. FOARD. To the elderly housing units, and our amendment does

not suggest any change in that provision. Also, the existing provision

is limited to certain projects needing extra payments to continue operation on a solvent basis.

The grant provisions under our proposed amendment would run

only to the units for the handicapped and would serve an additional

purpose. There would not be a double or duplicating subsidy, as we

see it.

Mr. HARVEY. Well, let me ask you one other question, and I will

yield after that, but does not the public housing authority today

eliminate income from disability in considering salary limits?

That is not included at the present time, is it?

Mr. SPECTOR. Income from disability?

Mr. HARVEY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTOR. I believe that is correct, that it is not included.

Mr. HARVEY. That is not included at the present time?

Mr. SPECTOR. Yes.

Mr. HARVEY. Well, I have no further questions at this time, Mr.

Chairman.

Mr. ASHLEY. Thank you very much indeed, gentlemen—oh, excuse

me, Mr. Widnall.

Mr. WIDNALL. Mr. Spector, I understand that there are 2 million

now in public housing and about 125,000 are in the elderly classification, and around 1 million are children.

Are you familiar with those figures to say whether or not they are

correct?

Mr. SPECTOR. I do not know the total figures. Maybe I can get some

help on that—that is approximately correct, Mr. Widnall.

Mr. WIDNALL. Public housing has been pushing for some time for

medical facilities for their housing.

Now, under the nursing possibility, would not public housing be

greatly expanded to shelter the handicapped?

Mr. SPECTOR. Under this proposal?

Mr. WIDNALL. Yes.
20 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

Mr. SPECTOR. Well, I do not know that it would be greatly expanded, and I do not feel that there would be medical or nursing facilities included in any of the housing that we would undertake for

the handicapped.

Any facilities for nursing or medical care would be provided by the

community, as it does for people who are well and living regularly

in the community.

Mr. WIDNALL. Well, nothing is contemplated in this legislation with

respect to the units that would be constructed, that there would be provisions for this?

Mr. SPECTOR. For nursing or medical care?

Mr. WIDNALL. That is right.

Mr. SPECTOR. NO, sir.

Mr. WIDNALL. That is all.

Mr. ASHLEY. Any other questions?

Mr. HARVEY. I have none.

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. Spector, and Mr. Foard, thank you very much.

Mr. SPECTOR. Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ASHLEY. The next witness is Russell J. N. Dean, of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

Mr. Dean is Chairman of the Policy Planning and Legislation Staff

of the Vocational Rehabilitation Administration.

Mr. Dean, will you come forward, please, sir?

STATEMENT OF RUSSELL J. N. DEAN, CHAIRMAN, POLICY PLANNING AND LEGISLATION STAFF, VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION

ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND

WELFARE

Mr. DEAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a prepared statement, I can either read it or file it for the record and speak to it.

Mr. ASHLEY. 'Whichever you choose to do is perfectly all right.

It might be just as well if you read the statement, so, if you will, please proceed with your statement.

Mr. DEAN. Thank you, sir.

I appreciate the privilege of appearing before your committee

today to present the views of the Department of Health, Education,

and Welfare on H.R. 7394, a bill to amend title II of the Housing

Act of 1959 to extend the program of loans for housing for the elderly so as to include housing for handicapped families and persons.

The bill would amend section 202 of the act, the direct-loan program for housing for the elderly, to authorize loans for housing projects to be occupied by handicapped families or individuals as well as the elderly to whom the act now applies. No more than half of the dwelling units in such housing could be occupied by handi- capped people.

On this point, we interpret the bill to intend that individuals whose eligibility is based on age, rather than on a handicap as such, would not be counted as handicapped for this purpose, even though they may, in fact, be handicapped.

"Housing" is defined in the bill to mean structures suitable for use

as dwellings which are new or are existing structures which have
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 21

been rehabilitated, altered, converted, or improved. An individual

would be considered handicapped, and his family a handicapped family, upon certification by a physician that the individual has a

physical impairment which can be expected to be of long-continued

and indefinite duration, and further upon a determination by the

Administrator of the Housing and Home Finance Agency that residence in a housing unit would assist the person to engage in useful,

productive activity.

The bill also expands the definition of "related facilities" which

may be converted by a section 202 loan to include new or converted

structures suitable for use by elderly or handicapped families as

cafeterias or dining halls, community rooms or buildings, workshops,

infirmaries or other inpatient or outpatient health facilities, or other

essential service facilities.

The term "workshops" is defined to mean rooms, including tools or

equipment, which are determined by the Administrator to be appropriate for use by elderly or handicapped families for various

types of activities and work which may provide a source of income

to the persons using the workshops.

Mr. Chairman, the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare

believes that it is most appropriate for your committee to consider

the special housing needs of seriously disabled people. Many of the

programs administered by agencies of the Department bring our

stais and their associates in the States into contact with disabled

people whose lives could be made much more active and satisfying

if they were able to secure special housing that they could afford.

We believe it is a socially desirable step to include in the housing

programs of the Federal Government some adequate provisions to

encourage and support the construction of more housing aimed at

meeting the specific needs of these handicapped men and women.

In considering in detail the provisions of the bill, we have certain

comments and suggestions which I should like to convey to you at

this time.

The question of where, within the framework of the Federal Government's housing programs, provision should be made for housing

assistance for the handicapped, is one on which our Department defers

to the views of the Housing and Home Finance Agency.

I would make the observation that there appears to be merit in

associating housing for handicapped persons with housing for the

elderly, since many of the design features needed by the handicapped

are quite helpful to elderly people who are 

infirm, 

even though not

handicapped in the ordinary sense of the word. .-kt the same time,

confining provisions for the handicapped to the program of housing

for the elderly has certain drawbacks. For one, housing for the handicapped would become available only where a prior decision has been

made to provide housing for the elderly, so that in many places, the

benefits of this amendment would never reach the handicapped.

Also, we have encountered some opinion which feels that there are

psychological disadvantages to associating housing for the handicapped solely with housing for elderly, since both of these groups are

particularly anxious to be accepted as self-sufficient individuals without any connotations of dependency.
22 HOUSING FOR. PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED:

We suggest, therefore, that the committee consider making special

assistance in housing for the handicapped a part of other phases of the

Federal Government's housing program, so that this assistance will

be more flexible

'

and more widely available to meet the needs as they

exist in different communities.

In relation to this, the bill includes specific provisions to avoid

"colonies" of handicapped people. We believe the idea behind this

provision is sound. However, this objective might be accomplished

by something less than the 50-percent maximum occupancy by the

handicapped which the bill now provides perhaps a maximum of 25

percent or even less would prove quite satisfactory.

And I might insert at this point, Mr. Chairman, that, having

listened to the testimony of the previous witness, when we mentioned

25 percent we are not stating it as our requirement because we share

many of the views that were expressed here this morning.

We believe that this can be loosened up to the advantage of everybody concerned.

If this is done, and if it is made clear that persons age 62 and over

would not be counted toward this maximum of 25 percent handicapped

(even though such elderly persons might in fact be handicapped) the

problems mentioned above would be minimized and there would be

reasonable provision for housing for the handicapped within the

program of housing for the elderly.

Like other agencies which have an active interest in elderly people,

we would hope that the enactment of legislation for housing for the

handicapped would not have any adverse effect on the amount of housing to be available for the elderly. It is my understanding that proposals are being made to insure against such a result.

We can visualize numerous advantages in including in the bill provisions for such supplementary facilities as dining halls, community

rooms, hobby workshops or activity centers, small health facilities,

and other service features. It seems unlikely that the availability of

such facilities would duplicate activities of agencies of this Department in such fields as health and vocational rehabilitation. On the

contrary, such facilities, if properly planned and administered, might

well represent preliminary steps toward improved health and voca- tional rehabilitation services for elderly and handicapped families

occupying such housing. At the same time, we have strong reserva- tions about including infirmaries, as such, in housing projects.

In defining a handicapped individual (and thereby establishing eligibility criteria for acceptance for occupancy of such housing) sec- tion 2(4) of H.R. 7394 provides, among other things, that there must be a determination by the Administrator "that residence in a housing unit for the handicapped would assist such individual to engage in useful, productive activity." This requirement, while most com- mendable in motive, could prevent many severely disabled individuals who are urgently in need of housing, from benefiting from the pro- visions of the bill.

The experience of agencies of this Department, and particularly that of the Vocational Rehabilitation Administration, has demon- strated the great potential for restoring large numbers of severely handicapped individuals to activity and useful work when the necessary services and facilities are made available, of which satisfactory
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 23

housing often is an essential. At the same time, this experience has

also shown that there are many handicapped individuals whose disabilities are so severe and complicated that there are no means of

restoring them to useful, productive activity, even within their own.

homes. In many instances, the need for special housing for individuals in this latter group is especially acute, and it would seem discriminatory to exclude them, especially when no requirement for useful, productive activity is applied in considering elder iy ricnhandicapped individuals applying for residence in the same housing project.

Again, Mr. Chairman, I express my thanks for this opportunity to

testify and I am available for any questions the committee may have.

Mr. ASHLEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Dean.

I take it that you would agree with Mr. Spector rather than the 50

percent called for in the bill with respect to the number of handicapped persons or families that could be in the project—that this

could be better left to the discretion of the administrator of the

program.

Mr. DEAN. Yes, we would, Mr. Chairman. And I think we should

bear in mind when we mention 50 percent and so forth, that we have

always, as this bill was written, been dealing with a maximum, not a

minimum.

So the figure itself would never have guaranteed the number of

people occupying—handicapped people occupying—such housing. It

simply served as a ceiling beyond which one could not go.

Mr. ASHLEY. Well, that, of course, was intended in the drafting of

the bill.

Mr. DEAN. To that extent there is left a great deal of latitude to

the local housing authority.

Mr. ASHLEY. Precisely.

You state on page 4 of your testimony that it would be your hope

that enactment of this legislation would not result in a diminution

of housing available for the elderly.

Again, it was the purpose of this legislation not to diminish the

amount of housing available for the elderly but rather to open up section 202 to persons anxious to provide housing for the handicapped. If this were to prove the case, wouldn't it be true that as a

matter of fact there might be more housing for the elderly as a result. 

ofenactment of this legislation?

Mr. DEAN. I can visualize that result; yes, sir. Let me comment

at that point to say that within the Department of Health, Educa- tion, and Welfare we have several agencies, most of whom are di- rectly concerned with both elderly people and handicapped people. And so even in my own agency, which is concerned with vocational rehabilitation of handicapped people, we, too, are quite concerned with people of older years. I think something close to one-third of the total number of people who are rehabilitated annually in our

program . are beyond the age of 45, and each year—I dolft, . ,have the specific number—there are several hundred people befeirici Oe age of 62, which is the age consideration here. • -

So in most of the agencies of our Department;- we are concerned with both groups of people.

Mr. ASHLEY. I might just comment with respect to your discussion

of the definition of handicapped persons under this program.
24 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

Again, it was the purpose of this legislation, which it must be remembered is the first of its kind to be considered by the Congress, not

to provide housing for all or even a substantial majority of persons

suffering from severe handicaps. The particular purpose was to try

to coordinate some of the activities of the Federal Government to

assist handicapped people to become self-sufficient and as independent

and self-supporting as possible.

Mr. DEAN. I would be happy to speak to that, Mr. Ashley.

Perhaps more than any other agency in Washington, the Vocational Rehabilitation Administration has been concerned now for

more than 40 years with the job of evaluating handicapped people

in a program which requires, before services may be rendered, that

you must make a determination, among other things, that the person

will become employable when you have completed the services.

Having administered this Federal-State program over these years,

we realize how many people who have difficult and complicated disabilities do get screened out of our program in the States because it

is so often difficult or impossible at the outset, based on preliminary

evaluation, to say whether or not this person will ever become employable. It is one of the difficulties of our present program, and it is one

of the reasons why we now have legislation pending in the House

and Senate to make a change in that provision.

I believe that the intent of Congress here, whatever it may be when

it passes this law, if it does, will go to helping; handicapped people

toward activities and usefulness without inserting the same kind of

a screen which we now face in the operation of our program.

It would be I presume, even more difficult for an agency like the

Housing and 

be,

Finance Agency and the local housing authorities

who are not surrounded, as our State agencies are, with professional

talent whose main business in life is to make such predictions.

So I think it would overly complicate the thing and perhaps interfere with what the committee wished to do.

Mr. ASHLEY. Well, one final question on this subject, then.

Would it be your thought that just as the number of handicapped 

persons being included in a 202 project, for example, should be left

to the discretion of the administrator, so it should be left to the discretion of the administrator of the priority, if any, that should be

given to handicapped persons applying to a 202 unit, the extent to

which such handicapped persons might be better able to work and

be self-sufficient.

Mr. DEAN. That would seem probably a big improvement.

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. Widnall ?

Mr. WIDNALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dean, on page 2 of your testimony you say:

The bill also expands the definition of "related facilities" which may be covered by a section 202 loan to include new or converted structures suitable for

use by elderly or handicapped families as cafeterias or dining halls, community rooms or buildings, workshops, infirmaries or other inpatient or outpatient.

health facilities, or other essential service facilities.

Does this mean that—this will apply both to elderly and

handicapped.

Mr. DEAN. This testimony was directed to its effect upon the handicapped, Mr. Widnall.
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 25

I assume, however 

Mr. WIDNALL. Can you speak a little louder ? I have difficulty

hearing you.

Mr. DEAN. This statement was directed to the handicapped, sir.

Mr. WIDNALL. I take it that amendment, though, would expand the

proaram to include that for both.

r. DEAN. I presume it would. Let me mention 

Mr. WIDNALL. Mr. Spector previously said that handicapped needing nursing facilities would not be eligible. I just wonder why the

change in definition as to related facilities.

Mr. DEAN. I believe, Mr. Widnall, that the inclusion of any of these

types of facilities, other than actual housing, is something for which

our Department is largely going to have to take the direction of the

Housing and Home Finance Agency. There are portions with which

we are concerned because agencies of the Department are now responsible under law for certain of these things. I mention my own agency

first which presently has a law which authorizes the use of funds made

available to the States to help construct workshops for handicapped

people. It may not include new construction, it may only provide

for equipment, alteration, and conversion of workshops.

There is, however, as I mentioned before, legislation pending which

would, if enacted, authorize new construction of workshops through

our agency.

Mr. WIDNALL. This I understand, Mr. Dean. What I am particularly interested in was the inclusion of infirmaries or other inpatient

or outpatient health facilities, which is a very broad extension of

existing law.

Mr. DEAN. That was my second point, sir. The Public Health

Service has, as you know, certain responsibilities under the Hospital

Survey and Construction Act, popularly known as the Hill-Burton

program. And that fact is the main reason why my statement includes this reservation about infirmaries. I think it goes to the question of whether or not the Federal Government should undertake

Federal support for the same kind of thing through several sources.

Mr. WIDNALL. I have one other question.

In Mr. Spector's testimony on page 7 it relates to substantial assistance being given to a pilot project in Toledo, for a 150-unit low-rent

housing project, which would be specially designed for the handicapped—a part of it for the handicapped, a part of it for the elderly.

Now, if you are presently able to do this, why is new legislation

necessary ?

Mr. DEAN. First let me say, sir, that I am familiar only in a very

general way with the project in Toledo.

It is my understanding that it is a single piece of business constructed on a demonstration basis for a particular kind of housing.

If I understand your question correctly, sir, I would gather that

this and other types of demonstration things could be conducted under present authority, and that Mr. Spector has recommended that

under this particular part of the Housing authority there be an expansion and an earmarking which would make specific provisions for this

sort of thing for the handicapped.

Now, as to why there is need for other legislation, it is my understanding—and, believe me, I am not at all familiar, as you gentlemen
26 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

are, with the Housing Act—it is my understanding that authority

specifically does not exist in law for other phases of the housing program.

Mr. WIDNALL. Well, actually I do not believe there is any additional

money authorization involved in this. I do believe that it might be

a matter of direction as to the construction of certain units and utilization of those units.

As I am reading the bill now, and actually getting into .it for the

first time, it seems to me that its most important function is to redefine certain things with respect to handicapped persons, and one is

as to eligibility for occupancy, and also to define the additional type

of facilities that can be built.

Would you agree with that?

Mr. DEAN. That seems to be two of the major reasons; yes, sir.

Mr. WIDNALL. Well, could you name some others that you feel are

major reasons for the new legislation?

Mr. DEAN. Well, let me repeat, Mr. Widnall, that when I get very

far into the Housing Act I am out of my depth.

Mr. WIDNALL. I do not want to be unfair to you as a witness.

Mr. DEAN. It is my understanding, however, that whenever the

Congress wishes to do something specific, they take specific action.

It is my understanding that it was possible, for example, for elderly

people to occupy public housing prior to the time there was a special

program of housing for the elderly.

Now I think what is being considered is whether or not the Congress

wishes to give special attention to provisions for handicapped people.

As the gentleman mentioned, when Mr. Spector was testifying, there

are some unknown number of handicapped people, I am sure, occupying places in public housing at present. So it is not that it cannot be

done technically.

I think the question is whether or not the Congress wants to give

special attention to see that the needs of handicapped people are met

as fully as we can meet them.

Mr. WIDNALL. Public housing, as a matter of fact has by far the

largest number of housing units presently in existence are the housing for elderly program.

As I understand, about half of the number of units contracted for

during the last year were for housing for the elderly.

That is all, thank you.

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. Harvey?

Mr. HARVEY. Mr. Dean, on page 4 of your statement, the second

paragraph, the first sentence—

We can visualize numerous advantages in including in the bill provisions for

such supplementary facilities as dining halls, community rooms, hobby workshops, or activity centers, small health facilities, and other service features.

This is a relatively new venture here, I take it, is it not?

Mr. DEAN. I believe, sir, this paragraph probably will give us as

much trouble as anything else in this statement.

It was an effort to reflect the views, as I said, of several of the

agencies, of our department, all of whom were trying to be in a positive position with respect to this bill, and all of whom do, as I said,

have some responsibilities under law for some of these things.
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 27

If I am not misquoting Mr. Spector at this time, I believe he made

a suggestion that the bill make provision for space, perhaps even

specially prepared space for some of these activities, and that then

the equipping, staffing, and operating of them, I assume, would be

what he said—a community responsibility with local officials and

others.

And I believe this probably represents as good an analysis of the

discussions in our department as I know of.

Mr. HARVEY. Well, then, you have in mind it would entail no additional Federal funds, is that right, to operate the dining halls, the

community rooms, workshops, small health facilities?

Mr. DEAN. Well, let me first disassociate myself from such things

as community rooms, for which our department, so far as I know,

has no responsibility.

On the other things, I repeat that it does raise a question of the

extent to which the Federal Government would wish to undertake

support of the same kinds of facilities through more than one source

and more than one agency.

Mr. HARVEY. Well, let me ask you this: Before we went ahead and

built such rooms, buildings, or facilities, or whatever you want to

call it, certainly we would have to sit down in advance with the communities and find out whether they actually would take the responsibility of operating them. Isn't that right?

Mr. DEAN. That is a very good observation, sir, because our experience, dealing with rehabilitation centers, workshops, and so forth is

that the greatest mistake you can make is to provide the brick, mortar,

and equipment without prior consultation with the people who have

not only to operate it, but find an income to make sure that it operates

successful] y.

Mr. HARVEY. Mr. Dean, in your position with Health, Education,

and Welfare, could you tell us how many persons you think would

be helped by this program?

Mr. DEAN. I doubt, sir, whether reasonably satisfactory figures,

satisfactory to everyone, will be available.

The people in our department, including my own agency, and numerous people in statistical work, have conferred with the Housing and

Home Finance Agency and tried to be helpful.

The figures mentioned by Mr. Spector earlier give certain global estimates of disabled people based on certain criteria that he used from

different studies. As he mentioned, the main part of it comes out of

the National Health Survey.

Now, exactly how many handicapped people might be benefited by

this is highly conjectural.

Let me use one figure, because sometimes categorical figures bring

these things to light better than general statistics.

The best figures that are available, for example, on the number of

paraplegics in this country, are about 125,000. And certainly when

we talk about paraplegics, people paralyzed from the waist down, we

are talking about a group of people who obviously would be quite

directly interested in such legislation.

Now, of the 125,000, some proportion are children who do not, by

themselves, occupy homes. But if we were to use any sort of comparison, such as Mr. Ashley mentioned a little earlier with respect
28 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

to special housing for paraplegic veterans, I believe out of 125,000

you would get far beyond the majority of them interested in such

housing.

Mr. HARVEY. Where are these people living today? They are living

in private housing of some sort, and they are living in public housing,

are they not?

Mr. DEAN. Well, as long as we are talking of paraplegics, let me

take about half a minute to tell you a story.

One of my good friends, who died about 3 years ago, was John

Price. He was a paraplegic. He was a leader in work for paraplegics

in this country, editor of the Paraplegia News, an official of the National Paraplegia Foundation.

He told me a story of frustration one time.

He edited the magazine from Frostburg, Pa., where he lived. He

went into New York City about once a week, because that is where the

headquarters of the National Paraplegia Foundation is located. He

received at home in Frostburg one day a letter from a girl, 28 years old,

a paraplegic. She had been injured and paralyzed when she was 22.

And she wrote a nice, literate, but still rather pitiful letter, asking if

they could furnish any kind of information, reading material, and so

forth.

John put the letter in his pocket and made a mental note to go to see

her when he was in New York City the next time which he did.

This girl was living in a third-floor walkup. She had not been out

of that third-floor walkup since she came home from the hospital G

years before. Her parents were of very modest means. She was an intelligent girl. She had finished high school. She was probably about

as rehabilitable, about as good a prospect for a young woman to go towork, to perhaps marry and lead a good life, as you will find. But instead she had been 6 years in this room.

The crowning irony of this thing, the reason why John Price told

me the story, was that she lived right around the corner from the National Paraplegia Foundation.

Mr. HARVEY. But the question is, I think, would this legislation

have solved her problem. Maybe I do not understand it. I do not

think it would.

Mr. DEAN. Here is a low-income family which was doing the best

it could with what money it had, and with a very disabled daughter.

If there had been available adequate housing to get that girl out of

there, she would probably have ended up making at least as much

money as her father made. But she would never negotiate those

three flights of stairs.

Mr. HARVEY. Well, let me ask you this, Mr. Dean. Time is fast

running out here.

The present HEW rehabilitation program as I understand it is a

joint Federal-State program.

What would your thought be with regard to the grants that we are

talking about here? Do you feel they should be entirely Federal

grants? Is there any reason why, like the rehabilition program itself, they should not be joint Federal-State grants? After all, the

Congress here cannot operate on conjecture, like the figures you tell

us about, and so forth, nor on speculation, but rather we have to look

at existing programs and then try and fit it in with what is being

requested at the present time.
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 29

It seems to me we have a very fine program under HEW, with the

joint Federal-State--a joint Federal-State program. And I am

wondering why the approach on this one is different.

What are your thoughts on this?

Mr. DEAN. Frankly, sir, I do not have any. This gets into the

basic question of how a Federal housing program should be financed.

I have some views on how our own program should be financed, but

not on housing.

Mr. HARVEY. All right. I thank you very much, Mr. Dean. I

appreciate this testimony. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. St Germain?

Mr. ST GERMAIN. No questions at this time, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ASHLEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Dean. We are grateful

to you for your contribution this morning.

Mr. DEAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ASHLEY. Our next witness this morning is Mr. Alvin D. Puth,

assistant director of the National Rehabilitation Association.

Mr. Puth, we welcome you to the committee this morning. We are

very pleased to have you here.

We will be happy to have you either read your statement, Mr.

Puth, or proceed as you wish.

In view of the fact that your statement is of moderate length, Mr.

Puth, we would be pleased to have you proceed with the reading of

your statement.

Mr. Plum. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

STATEMENT OF ALVIN D. PUTH, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, NATIONAL

REHABILITATION ASSOCIATION; ACCOMPANIED BY WILLIAM W.

LAMPRELL, FIELD CONSULTANT, NATIONAL REHABILITATION

ASSOCIATION

Mr. PUTH. Mr. Chairman, my name is Alvin D. Puth. I am assistant director of the National Rehabilitation Association, which is an

organization of 19,000 individuals and organizations concerned with

the rehabilitation of handicapped individuals. Established in 1925,

the organization has the longest continuous history of any organization in the rehabilitation field.

Members include physicians, counselors, administrators in fact,

representatives of all of the professions who work in the rehabilitation

field. In addition, we have thousands of members who are not employed in the rehabilitation field but who support the association's

objectives through membership.

The association publishes the Journal of Rehabilitation, conducts

an annual conference and eight regional conferences each year, and

performs many other services which may be anticipated of such

organizations. It has also been active in the legislative field, being

the voluntary sponsor of much of the existing vocational rehabilitation and related legislation.

We appreciate the invitation to testify on H.R. 7394, by N1. Ashley. In our opinion, the author of the bill is making anlma4, 11, t

contribution to the general well-being of the handicapped 'indivicTliat

by calling the attention of Congress to the problems which handl--
30 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

capped families and individuals confront as they seek adequate housing. This is a real problem for many.

Let me say, first, Mr. Chairman, that we consider this to be an appropriate field for Federal activity. The problem is nationwide. It

is a problem of great magnitude. It is one that cannot be dealt with

effectively on an individual or State basis.

It seems appropriate that Federal housing legislation include provisions which will facilitate the development of housing units which

are suitable as residences for handicapped individuals. A precedent

has been set in housing legislation for the elderly. As is true of the

elderly, one of the really great problems of handicapped people is to

secure appropriate housing at costs they can afford.

Rather than speaking specifically on the details of H.R. 7394, we

shall discuss some general considerations which we feel should prevail in planning housing for handicapped individuals.

We feel that any program undertaken by Congress must be experimental in nature until enough experience can be gained to enable the

Congress to proceed with certainty on a long-range program. This

means that in the beginning a variety of approaches should probably

be taken to provide housing for handicapped people.

For instance, it would be desirable if special housing for handicapped people could be made available through the regular mortgage.

insurance program as well as through a special program which is

available for the elderly.

It would be well if the special housing projects could be developed

in both large and small cities

'

under both public and private auspices,

in both large units and small units, for handicapped exclusively, and

for handicapped individuals living in the same projects as the nonhandicapped.

We believe emphasis should be placed on getting the maximum

number of suitable units within the ability of handicapped people to

pay. Principal consideration should be given to the general population of the handicapped, rather than to special organized groups or

classes of the handicapped.

What we would like to see is the availability of housing units suitable for handicapped people in a multitude of housing developments

throughout the country. Knowing of the availability of such units,

handicapped individuals would apply for admission, just as any other

individual would apply for housing projects for the handicapped,

but we are pointing out that far greater need will be met through

adaptations in the general housing program.

The added cost of adapting housing units to the handicapped would

not be great. Street level entrances or suitable inclined ramps, elevators large enough to use wheelchairs without crowding, wider

doors, particularly bathroom doors, specially adapted bathroom

equipment, and kitchens designed particularly for the use of severely

handicapped individuals, are among the special needs of handicapped

people. Standards are already available in all of these areas.

Another consideration we believe important, and which is consistent

with our other recommendations, is that emphasis be put on living

quarters as such, rather than on extras such as cafeterias, community

rooms, et cetera.
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 31

The important consideration, as we see it, is to have the housing

unit so the individual can get in and out, and be able to carry on all

normal activities within his house with a minimum of difficulty.

It is assumed that he will work outside, go to church outside, participate in the community's general recreational activities and otherwise live as normally as it is possible for him to live. Any housing

development should, of course, have space built into it for general

recreational uses.

Particularly we would like to emphasize the fact that production

workshops should not be considered as part of such structures. We

believe it is a general community responsibility to provide workshop

opportunities for certain handicapped individuals.

Hundreds of American communities are meeting their responsibilities along this line. In addition, administration proposed legislation, which we are supporting, calls for a special program for the

construction, equipping, and staffing of workshops for the severely

handicapped. The proposed legislation would be administered by

the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

Mr. Chairman, let me summarize by stating again what we think

the ultimate objective should be in any program to assist in providing

housing for handicapped individuals. There should be available in

every community throughout the land, in both public and private

housing, units which have been designed to meet the needs of handicapped individuals.

These units should be made available in the housing covered by

FHA mortgage insurance as well as in special housing developed

under other programs. Handicapped individuals, as a rule, do not

want to consider themselves as different or special. They want to have

the opportunity to make the most of their abilities and to do this,

it is necessary to remove some of the barriers that their disabilities

impose.

Traditional housing may often constitute such a barrier. The committee will make a real contribution by recommending legislation that

will help to remove this barrier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

If I can answer any of your questions, I would be delighted to try.

Mr. ASHLEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Puth.

The committee is aware of the broad experience, the intimate experience which you have had in this general area. Your statement

will be valuable to us.

I must say that I think your objectives and your attitude and perspective on this question are most commendable.

I do not personally think that your objectives are extreme or too

broad. I am particularly taken with your emphasis on the point that

handicapped persons do not want to be treated as a group apart, but

on the contrary the most they desire is to have removed those barriers

which might keep them from leading a normal productive life. And

this of course is the objective of the legislation, the objective you

subscribe to.

Mr. Widnall, do you have any questions ?

Mr. WIDNALL. Just a couple. Mr. Puth, I want to compliment you

on a very fine statement.

Mr. Puri'. Thank you, sir.
32 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

Mr. WIDNALL. I think you have made some very sound proposals,

and really a little bit more in keeping with the need of what we might

be considering today.

I take it that your emphasis is very much on the dignity of the home 

and the ability of the individual to provide for himself as much as

possible without forcing him into segregated community living, which

could happen under fully specialized designed projects that would

merge the interests of many people.

In your own consideration of this problem, Mr. Puth, the consideration of your association over a period of years have you been able

to come up with any figures as to the number Of people—of course,

this is not pinned down to one or two—who might be looking for this

kind of housing?

Mr. PUTH. Mr. Widnall, we do not have either the facilities or the

money, or I am not sure the ability, to do any national studies and

surveys. I was interested and respectful of your frustrations in the first part of your testimony to try to define this problem nationally,

as I know as a national legislator you must do.

I cannot give you any national figures. But from the practical

point of view of the person who is out in the field operating, and who

tries to keep nuts and bolts and monkey wrenches still in his pocket

and not get on an ivory tower level, to give you a good illustration—

we have within 100 miles of us the Woodrow Wilson Rehabilitation

Center in Virginia, one of the finest facilities in the United States.

They have a population at any one time of the year of about 400 severely disabled persons at that center trying to be rehabilitated.

One of the major problems in handling about 10 to 15 percent of these people is if you do provide them with an adequate vocation, if you do retrain them, if you do give them the skills, how do you put them to work.

Many of these people, for example, are living on a hillside in the

Shenandoah Valley on a muddy road. There is no way in or out.

You cannot push your wheel chair through mud.

Another illustration is a paraplegic living on the fourth floor apartment in Charlottesville. Another one might be a severe cardiac case who lives at the bottom of the hill within adequate bus transportation who has to walk six blocks to a bus, with a severe cardiac condi- tion.

With the respect to the State-Federal program that has been men- tioned before, in which now they are able to take in round figures approximately 100,000 people a year, we have to realize that for every

1 that they rehabilitate, there are 2 or 3 that they must turn down as either infeasible or ineligible or too severely disabled, or for a number of other factors.

My personal practical estimate would be on an extremely conservative level that there are somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 people

each year whom they must turn down who might have their feasibility

greatly enhanced for this service if they had adequate housing, and if we could tear down the barriers of getting in and out of the house

and to and from work. Because I know this to be an operating problem with rehabilitation counselors in the field, and I think I know

either socially or else intimately the majority of these 2,000 counselors,

which are the backbone of the vocational rehabilitation movement in
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 33

the United States. And each of them will tell you again and again for 

many of their several disabled cases there is nothing they can do

unless they have adequate housing which enables these people to

more effectively manipulate their environment.

Mr. WIDNALL. Mr. Puth, on page 3 you said something that certainly pointed up a clear need, when you spoke about the added cost

of adapting housing units to the handicapped would not be great—

street level entrances, suitably inclined ramps, wider doors, particularly bathroom doors, and so forth.

Now, in many buildings I think it has been a complete lack of foresight on the part of the builder rather than skimping with respect to

the accommodations provided.

I know that when I was in the State legislature in New Jersey we

had very inadequate fire safety laws, and many of the properties who

are operating even college dormitories, tenement houses, apartments,

did not realize the fire hazards they had provided in those buildings.

Doors opening in rather than out, and simple things like that, or the

failure to enclose their elevated facilities in fireproof material of

some kind.

This would not cost much money. It could easily be provided for.

And certainly we could provide it for the future with respect to Government-financed housing projects of all kinds. And it certainly

could be very helpful where we do not have any rehabilitation housing

in the United States—multi- and single-family.

I appreciate your suggestion here. And I am sure the other members of the committee do.

Also, I think it is quite pertinent, what you say. Of course in some

instance it would not be true—but you say, "Another consideration we

believe important and which is consistent with our other recommendations is that emphasis be put on living quarters as such rather than on

extras such as cafeterias community rooms, et cetera."

We certainly can make an awful lot of progress there, to give some

self-satisfaction to the handicapped. And it is far more necessary,

I think, than providing these other facilities at the very beginning.

I would like to be helpful in any way, just as one member of the

committee, to follow out your suggestion in the very next paragraph

where you say, "The committee will make a real contribution by recommending legislation that will help remove this barrier."

I want to be helpful, and I am sure the other members of the committee do.

Mr. P U TH. I am sure there are many handicapped people that will

appreciate your efforts.

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. Harvey?

Mr. HARVEY. It is a very excellent statement, Mr. Puth. Mr. Widnall, I think, put his finger on the parts of it he approves of, and I

also approve of particularly. I say that because it seems to me that

we will do much better by making regular housing available to the

handicapped than we would by providing a special program for the

handicapped.

I have in mind—let me say this morning is my first contact with

Mr. Ashley's bill, and I am not as familiar with it as I should be.

But I am bothered by the part of it that suggests that it should be a

special program—because it seems to me I have always heard that
:34 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

the handicapped wanted to be treated as an ordinary person. Therefore I welcome the statement of yours on page 3 that the added cost of

adapting units to the handicapped would not be great.

It would seem to me—if we can have some program here for making

homeownership easier by way of making our existing mortgage policy

easier, it would be helpful.

I have a certain repugnance also toward lumping the handicapped

with the elderly. It just seems to me although there is much in common between the two groups, in that there is an overlapping between

the elderly and the handicapped—nevertheless, there is really nothing

in common in from 60 percent of the cases. And the handicapped 1

know and respect very highly in my own age group and in younger

. age groups would much prefer, I think, being in housing which is

altogether different, which is housing that the ordinary person has—

whether it be to go out and buy his own house, or to live in an ordinary

low-rent housing project that everybody else lives in that has been

-adapted to his use.

I think the comments you made in your statement are very, very

fine.

Mr. Pimi. Thank you, sir. We do not feel, though, we are in conflict with the chairman's bill. This is not going to happen unless we

have some real national leadership on this.

Mr. ASHLEY. In that connection, Mr. Puth, I was just wondering—

I am not personally upset by having the bill characterized as a special

program, or special legislation. But in view of the objectives which

I am sure all of us share— Mr. Harvey, yourself, Mr. Widnall, my-

.self, and the other members of the committee can you think of any

other approach than to amend section 202, to amend section 221, to

amend the other provisions of the act that we have been discussing

this morning, both provisions specifically set forth in the act and the

amendments testified to by the previous witnesses?

Can you think of any other approach that would better satisfy the

needs of the disabled people that you know, the people that you work

with, the people that you see every day?

Mr. PUTH. No, sir. I think you are going to have to have a bill

substantially as yours is, which in effect puts Congress on record with

respect to how these housing programs shall be administered and for

whom they shall be administered. I think you are going to have to

have a bill which spells out such factors as eligibility. You are going

to have to have a bill that has such appropriate definitions as are

necessary in order to see that handicapped people do in fact get into

housing facilities, do have FHA loans, and something is going to have

to be spelled out with respect to their needs and their problems, so

that the intent of the total housing administration will be clear.

Mr:ASHLEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Puth, for joining us this

'morning. You have given us a good deal of insight into an important

problem.

Mr. Purx. Thank you, sir.

Mr. ASHLEY. Our next witness is Mr. Wellington F. Roemer.

Mr. Roemer is a resident of Toledo, Ohio. He is past president of

'the Lucas County Society for Crippled Children, a member of the

board of Toledo Society for Crippled Children, a member of the
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 35

executive board of Indoor Sports, Inc, and a member of the board

of Goodwill Industries.

Mr. Roemer is not himself afflicted with a handicap, but I can

say, on the basis of having known Mr. Roemer for many years, that

he is personally concerned with the handicapped and their opportunities for a better life.

This is not a new interest. Mr. Roemer has devoted a good deal

of his time and effort since he was a youngster in seeking to bring

.about improved conditions and improved opportunities for people

who are less fortunate because of their disabilities:

It is a personal pleasure for me to welcome you this morning.

I am proud that you are with us. I cannot think of anybody I

'know who can bring us, as a businessman concerned with this broad

area, a keener insight into what might be done by people such as yourself if this legislation is enacted.

So I welcome you here this morning. And I would invite you to

proceed in any manner that you might wish to.

If you have a statement, you can read it. If you would care to

-testify in an extemporaneous fashion 

Mr. HARVEY. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if Mr. Roemer would excuse

- me. I have had an opportunity to read over his statement. I certainly want to thank Mr. Roemer for appearing. I had only one question, and I have to leave. I just wonder if I could ask that one

'question.

Mr. ASHLEY. Absolutely.

Mr. HARVEY. For that matter, I notice Mr. Widnall said he has read

the statement also, while it has been on our desk.

Perhaps we could just proceed with the questioning.

STATEMENT OF WELLINGTON F. ROEMER, PRESIDENT, LUCAS

COUNTY SOCIETY FOR CRIPPLED CHILDREN; MEMBER, BOARD

OF TOLEDO SOCIETY FOR CRIPPLED CHILDREN; MEMBER, EXECUTIVE BOARD OF INDOOR SPORTS, INC., AND MEMBER, BOARD OF

GOODWILL INDUSTRIES

Mr. ROEMER. That will be fine. I am sorry the statement is not

'better prepared, but I thought it was going to be next week.

Mr. HARVEY. I think it is a fine statement.

Mr. ASHLEY. If there is no objection, the statement will be inserted

..at this point in the record.

Mr. ROEMER. I am Wellington F. Roemer and have my own insurance business in Toledo, Ohio. I have worked with handicapped people from the time I was a young boy and old enough to know who they

.are and what they are because my father was actively interested in

them and was responsible for many projects for the benefit of handi-

.capped children and adults.

I am associated in various capacities with the following organizations: Goodwill Industries, Toledo Society for Crippled Children,

Lucas County Society for Crippled Children and Adults, the Conlon

Service Center, and the Easter Seal Camp and in an advisory capacity

for the Toledo Chapter of the Indoor Sports Club, Inc. I have no

visible disabilities myself but am deeply interested in all of my friends

who have disabilities.
36 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

I do support Congressman Thomas L. Ashley's bill, H.R. 73942 which

would amend section 202 of the Housing Act of 1959 (the housing for

the elderly direct loan program) to authorize loans under that program

to be made for housing to be occupied by handicapped people and their

families as well as the elderly. We in Toledo strongly support this

bill for the following reasons:

1. One out of every seven Americans have a handicap which is either

visible or invisible and are in need of homes suitable to their needs and

incomes.

2. The bill would be a sound investment for our country since it is

helping the physically handicapped to help themselves and would give

them the opportunity to increase the longevity of self-support and selfaid and be independently useful, taxpaying citizens for many years to

come.

3. It will enable the physically handicapped to live in independent

ways with very limited assistance from anyone since this bill will

make it financially possible for many handicapped people in the community to build or buy already constructed moderately, priced homes

which would have many needed items for handicapped people in their

construction. Many physically handicapped are not able to pay these

high rents or build homes of their own. If through this bill before

you, people such as these could improve their living conditions to an

extent by building homes or remodeling by obtaining Governmentprotected long-term mortgages with a low interest rate they would

then be able to purchase or remodel such places and their payments.

per month would be approximately what they are paying now or just

a little more and it would remove them from purely existing.

4. There are also today families where there is a totally handicapped

individual being provided for by parents or relatives and because of

the expense of keeping these individuals alive and comfortable the

parents are financially unable to choose and live in suitable houses.

This bill would also assist such parents in building or buying homes.

5. This bill should have full support because it will make it possible

for some of these handicapped self-employed workers to build or buy

small establishments to be used for homes and business purposes. For

example, we in Toledo have handicapped shoemakers, radio and TV

repairmen, telephone solicitors, stenographic services, lawyers, and

many other professions. Some are doing this type of work in their

homes which are not suitable for people to work hi or customers to

enter.

We in Toledo feel that our community has been a leader in the education and job-finding fields for physically handicapped. Here the

handicapped ask only for a chance to prove they can be assets instead

of liabilities in our community.

When bill H.R. 740 for housing for the physically handicapped was

introduced to extend the program of loans to include the physically

handicapped in building programs in addition to the elderly many

people who knew the need in Toledo went to work to prove there was

a need. A survey was taken in Toledo to find the eligible handicapped people who were qualified under the bill and it was determined

there were 165 individuals and families who wanted to move into the

newly planned apartment building for handicaps. Many other people

were interested and wanted to know more about the building and the
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 37

qualifications. Many of these people are not only interested in the

possibility of moving into an apartment that will suit their physical

needs but are interested in the possibility of having shops and sheltered

work facilities right in their own apartments.

Many of these handicapped people are capable of doing fine work

but it is hard for them to go to and from work particularly in inclement weather. I have worked closely with the indoor sports club

which is made up of physically handicapped men and women. It is

a national organization and is the only organization in the country

that is composed entirely of severely handicapped people who make

their own decisions and policies. It is a nonprofit corporation and

there are no salaried offices, no age limit, no distinction as to race,

color, or creed. It presents a united front under God and its country

to attempt to aid the physically handicapped as a whole and to help

them become socially rehabilitated. There are over 3,000 members

throughout the country.

In the survey made in Toledo and in chapters throughout the United

States we found that many handicapped people have small incomes

and with rents at high levels ended up in small single rooms, boarding

houses, and cheap hotels and there was a great need for Government

housing. In this survey we found that many of the handicaps were

interested in the apartment building that has already been approved

for the Toledo area with a grant for the research and architecture

for a study and for the construction but many others with large families were interested in living in a home. Many of these people do have

homes but they are not large enough and-suitable for their residences

as well as a commercial enterprise to provide their livelihood.

We in Toledo realize that much time and money has been spent to

rehabilitate many physically handicapped people with taxpayers'

money and these people who are-willing and able to earn a living must

have ail opportunity to build and remodel their homes.

We in Toledo also have been instrumental in assisting architectural

barriers .and every Governor and architect in the United States belonging to the American Architect's Association has been sent a copy

of the _American Standards Specifications A-117-1 making building

and facilities accessible to and usable by the physically handicapped.

President Kennedy has issued an order that all post offices must have

a ground level entrance and Governor of New York Nelson Rockefeller has ordered all present and future State-owned buildings be

modified to provide easy access for the physically handicapped. Toledo was one of the first communities to take advantage of the bill that

Mr. Ashley presented, H.R. 740, and is having plans drawn for the

apartment under the grant.

We have had in Toledo calls and letters from many communities

throughout the United States asking about the progress of our apartment for the handicapped 'and aged for there is a great national need

for it. From the surveys and knowledge that we have learned we feel

also there is a national need for the bill, H.R. 7394, which provides

help for the handicapped as well as the aged.

Mr. ASHLEY. We will proceed with the questioning.

Mr. ROEMER. Fine. One thing I might say. Of WeElisVow

about Toledo and Ohio. I do not know about the 4tonal program

and the needs exactly. But I think they follow O}48' and Toledo.

f2

C •e4'40
38 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

Only yesterday, when I was preparing this statement, as it is prepared, I was in the home of two handicapped people that are married, and there were four other handicapped people there, and they

discussed this with me, the need of homes for them. That is why I

feel I am prepared to talk right down for the basic facts.

Mr. HARVEY. I was just curious—in the first paragraph, the paragraph numbered 1 on the first page of your statement you say—

One out of every seven Americans has a handicap which is either visible or

invisible and are in need of homes.

Mr. ROEMER. That is a very broad statement, I realize. But there

are that many. I have the facts to prove that. But all of those

people are not qualified for our program. I realize that—

Mr. HARVEY. That would total up somewhere in the neighborhood

of 27 million.

Mr. ROEMER. That is right. And I think that a lot of those probably are not in real good health. But I am talking about the national

figure. But those people are not all qualified.

Mr. HARVEY. How many of that figure, if you can tell us, Mr. Roemer, would you feel would be qualified?

Mr. ROEMER. Well, I am not in a position to give a national figure.

All I can talk about is the fact that in Toledo, after this program

was developed 3 years ago;on this apartment building, we took a survey in Toledo. We discussed with 600 people the need, and 165 people

were qualified, wanted to move into' the apartments immediately, they

were all set for it. We took a survey from Indoor Sports on a national

basis and found that same percentage in a community where there was

a large number of people that were qualified, that were not living in

proper homes, and who did need this type of home.

Mr. HARVEY. I certainly thank you for appearing, Mr. Roemer.

I hope you will excuse me. •

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. Widnall ?

Mr. WIDNALL. Mr. Roemer, I have read your statement with interest. It certainly is a good statement. My own questions would just

follow the same line started by Mr. Harvey.

When you are talking about 27 million people, in that 1-out-of7 category—have you got that broken down as to age groups at all?

Mr. ROEMER. No I do not. That is a broad statement. I should

have had it broken down, but I did not have the time to have it broken

down.

Mr. WIDNALL. We are used to a lot of figures being picked out of

the sky, and sometimes if they are left unchallenged the American

people would believe everybody in the United States needs this kind

of help. We try to pin it down.

I just wondered how many of these people are actually self-supporting and how many are able to take care of their own needs at the present time. I think we ought to know this and pin it down better. You

may not have the figures. But in order to understand the scope of the

program 

Mr. ROEMER. I am in a position only to talk about Toledo, for instance, and about Ohio. That is the only place we have made a survey.

And we have found that this 7-percent figure is just the general figure.

We are talking about Toledo. One percent of the people in Toledo

would qualify under this—under the needs of this housing program.
HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED 39)

Mr. WIDNALL. You are including the mentally, physically disabled?

Mr. ROEMER. We are including old age—not infirmity—old age

and handicapped people.

Mr. WIDNALL. Now wait. Let me understand that. You are saying one out of seven in Toledo would qualify?

Mr. ROEMER. No, sir; I said 1 percent.

Mr. WIDNALL. What would that mean in Toledo? What is the.

population?

Mr. ROEMER. 350,000 people.

Mr. WIDNALL. One percent of that?

Mr. ROEMER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WIDNALL. I think we are going to have a very interesting opportunity to observe firsthand as to what you can do with the privateprogram being set up for Toledo.

Mr. ROEMER. There is a great deal of interest not only in Toledo, but

they are receiving letters and calls from all over the country, becausethere has been a lot of publicity about this program in Toledo. Thereis a vast need for it.

Mr. WIDNALL. That is all, thank you.

Mr. ASHLEY. Mr. Roemer, in addition to the public housing demonstration program that has been set up in Toledo under the direction

of McClinton Nunn, Mr. Speaker, and the other members of the metropolitan housing authority, there also exists an interest in taking

advantage of legislation such as we are considering today.

Mr. ROEMER. That is very true. In discussing this with many of

the handicapped people, some of them have the fear of being put with

a group of all handicapped people and all older people. They want

to live their own lives. And they are interested in living in a home

that is set up and qualified for them.

Mr. ASHLEY. I am wondering if there has been, in your experience,.

an interest on the part of such people as yourself in undertaking a

project which would be, if this legislation was passed, possible under

section 202, or section 221—in other words, under the direct loan program or under the mortgage guarantee program, the latter being the211(d) (3) program.

Would it be of interest to you if this legislation were passed? Is.

it your notion, is it your judgment that there would be an interest in

utilizing the expanded sections of the Housing Act in order to implement a project for handicapped persons, not under the public' housing

section of the law, but, as I say, under the mortgage guarantee or the

direct loan program?

My thought, of course, is that it is one thing to adopt legislation,,

and it is another thing entirely for that legislation to be taken advantage of.

Mr. ROEMER. I do not think there is any doubt about it being taken.

advantage of. But I have not directly talked with many people about

the facts about that.

Mr. ASHLEY. Yes. There has been an interest in it, but you feet

that it would have to be adopted or come closer to enactment before

there would be a demonstration of specific interest; that is, a group

of people who would be sitting down to discuss the possibility of

developing a project of the kind that would be possible' under the law

as amended.
40 HOUSING FOR PHYSICALLY HANDICAPPED

Mr. ROE111ER. I think that is correct.

Mr. ASHLEY. If there are no further questions, the committee will

be in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning, when we will begin

hearings on "Urban Renewal."

Tomorrow we will hear the distinguished mayors of Pittsburgh and

Little Rock.

Until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning, the committee stands adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene

at 10 a.m., Tuesday, October 22, 1963.)

0