ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

+ + + + +

PUBLIC MEETING ON ENERGY CONSERVATION

PROGRAM FOR CONSUMER PRODUCTS: TEST PROCEDURES FOR CLOTHES DRYERS AND ROOM AIR CONDITIONERS

+ + + + + WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 17, 2008

+ + + + + The public meeting was held in Room 8E-089 of the Forrestal Building, U.S. Department of Energy, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:10 a.m., Doug Brookman, Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT: JAMES BATTAGLIA, Navigant Consulting, Inc. BRICE BOWLEY, G.E. Consumer & Industrial DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions DEBRA K. BRUNK, Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers BELINDA CARR, Energetics, Inc. NATASCHA CASTRO, National Institute of Standards and Technology PAIGE DETRICK, BSH Home Appliances Corporation BRENDA EDWARDS, Department of Energy GARY FERNSTROM, Pacific Gas and Electric Company LUKE HARMS, Whirlpool Corporation RONALD LEWIS, Department of Energy GRAHAM B. PARKER, Pacific Northwest National Laboratoryea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 2

PRESENT (Continued):

JUDITH REICH, Navigant Consulting, Inc. HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an Energy- Efficient Economy

JACOB TALBOT, American Council for an Energy- Efficient Economy JOHN M. TALBOTT, Talbott Consulting DETLEF WESTPHALEN, Navigant Consulting, Inc. STEPHEN WITKOWSKI, Department of Energyea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 3 TABLE OF CONTENTS

PAGE Welcoming Remarks, Ron Lewis . . . . . . . . .4

Introductions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5 Review of Agenda . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7 Introduction, Background and Legal Authority, Stephen Witkowski . . . . . 10

Stakeholder Opening Statements . . . . . . . 15 Covered Products, Effective Date, Determination of Modes to be Incorporated. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18

Specification for Test Methods and Measurements for Standby and Off Mode Testing . . . . . . . . . . . . . 91 Calculation of Energy Use Associated with Standby and Off Modes for Room Air Conditioners . . . . . . . . .125

Measures of Energy Consumption . . . . . . .133

Technical Corrections . . . . . . . . . . . .155

Compliance with other EPCA Requirements . . .156

Conclusions and Closing Remarks . . . . . . .165ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (9:10 a.m.) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 4 everybody, and welcome. This is the test 5 procedures for clothes dryers and room air 6 conditioners in NOPR public meeting for the 7 Building Technologies Program here at Energy 8 Efficiency and Renewable Energy. Today is 9 December 17th, 2008, and we are in the 10 Forrestal Building. Nice to see you all. 11 Thanks for being here on time so that we can 12 almost start on time. 13 My name is Doug Brookman, Public 14 Solutions, in Baltimore, and I'm going to 15 review the agenda here shortly, but before we 16 do, we'll have welcoming remarks from Ron 17 Lewis.

18 MR. LEWIS: Welcome. 19 (Laughter.) 20 MR. LEWIS: I appreciate everyone 21 being here, all of the dozen of you. Although 22 there aren't many people here as of yet, yourea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 5 1 input is always desired, and this is no less 2 important than the many meetings we have had 3 in this room. So we hope that you'll feel 4 free to exchange your viewpoints and give us 5 input, and I look forward to having a 6 productive day. 7 So thank you very much for being

8 here. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 10 It's our tradition to provide an 11 opportunity for each person to introduce him 12 or herself. So if you'd do that, I'm going to 13 start on this side of the room and work my way 14 around. Your name and organizational 15 affiliation, if you would please. 16 MR. HARMS: My name is Luke Harms 17 with Whirlpool Corporation. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: And we're testing 19 out these microphones. So we'll see if they

20 work. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: So I'm Gary 22 Fernstrom, representing the Pacific Gas andea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 6 1 Electric Company. 2 MR. BOWLEY: Brice Bowley with 3 G.E. Consumer and Industrial. 4 MS. DETRICK: Paige Detrick with 5 BSH Home Appliances. 6 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs with 7 American Council for an Energy-Efficient 8 Economy. 9 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with the 10 Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Judy? 12 MS. REICH: Judith Reich from 13 Navigant Consulting. 14 MR. LEWIS: Ron Lewis, DOE. 15 MR. WITKOWSKI: Stephen Witkowski,

16 DOE.

17 MS. CASTRO: Natascha Castro from 18 the National Institute of Standards and 19 Technology.

20 MR. TALBOT: Jacob Talbot. I'm21 with the American Council for an Energy22 Efficient Economy.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 7 1 MR. PARKER: Graham Parker, 2 Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 4 So we're about to launch into the 5 first substantive element after I finish this 6 agenda review. We provide an opportunity here 7 at the outset for any of you that wish to do 8 so to make brief opening remarks about issues 9 that are important to you, things you'd like 10 to highlight at the outset and perhaps for 11 further development as the day goes on. 12 Following that we're going to have 13 a brief introduction and background on the 14 legal authority for this NOPR from Stephen 15 Witkowski, and following that a more complete 16 description of the test procedure of the 17 covered products on all of those issues from 18 Judy, Judith. 19 We'll take a break mid-morning, 20 around about 10:45 or so, and then we'll get 21 into more details on the test procedures 22 specifically, the test methods andea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 8 1 measurements for standby mode and off mode 2 testing. 3 We'll continue from there a 4 calculation of energy uses associated with 5 standby modes and off modes for room air 6 conditioners, and we'll take a break for lunch 7 around about noonish, and we'll proceed as you 8 can see in your agenda with the calculation of 9 energy use associated with standby modes and 10 off modes for clothes dryers; following that, 11 measures of energy consumption; following 12 that, for technical corrections issues; then 13 compliance with other EPCA requirements; and 14 then finally an opportunity for conclusions 15 and closing remarks.16 We intend to adjourn today mid17 afternoon or so, 2:45, three-ish at the 18 latest, I think. Okay? So that's the plan 19 for today. 20 Questions, comments about the 21 agenda? And in particular, anything that you 22 would like to add that would supplement theea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 9 1 agenda if it's not covered here. 2 (No response.) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I see 4 nothing. Then I'd ask for your consideration 5 of what I think is not much more than common 6 courtesy. Please speak one at a time. Please 7 say your name for the record. If you would 8 keep the focus here, please turn your cell 9 phones on silent mode. If you need to have a 10 sidebar conversation with someone, we'll 11 understand if you take it out of the room. 12 It's distracting. 13 Despite the fact the microphones 14 don't work very well, the acoustics are pretty 15 good. So if you'd hold down your sidebars. 16 I ask you to please be concise and 17 share the air time, and I'm going to be 18 queuing people to speak as best I can by name. 19 I also wish to encourage follow-on comments. 20 As I queue you by name, you don't 21 have to repeat everything back, your entire 22 organization and affiliation, but for theea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 10 1 record, please just say your name. 2 And I think that's all that I 3 intended to cover at this point. Additional 4 questions, comments here before we begin? 5 (No response.) 6 MR. WITKOWSKI: Well, again, thank 7 you for coming to this public NOPR meeting, 8 and the purpose of this meeting is to examine 9 the test procedure in NOPR, and I will present 10 the department's proposed test procedures for 11 clothes dryers and room air conditioners.

12 We seek comment from the 13 participants on the proposed test procedures. 14 We will be discussing specific issues or 15 questions related to the proposal and 16 discussion and gathering of information on the 17 next steps for the rulemaking. 18 As far as the steps go in the 19 clothes dryer and room air conditioner testing 20 procedure rulemaking, we're at the NOPR stage 21 and move next into the final rule. 22 The NOPR, as most of you know, wasea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 11 1 issued by DOE on December 2nd, 2008. Today, 2 of course, is the meeting. Comments on the 3 NOPR from interested parties, transcripts, 4 records, oral comments for today's public 5 meeting will be available some time after the 6 meeting. 7 The written comments, the comment 8 as far as written comments, the comment period 9 close 75 days after publication in the Federal 10 Register. DOE reviews and considers all

11 comments. 12 The final rule, the final rule 13 publication will be issued by March 31st 14 deadline. It is required by EISA, the Energy 15 Independence and Security Act of 2007. 16 Test procedure overview and 17 status, and we'll be going through the 18 products covered by the test procedure 19 changes, the effective date for the amended 20 test procedure, incorporating by reference IEC 21 Standard 62301 from the first edition, 2005 to 22 six, for measuring standby mode and off modeea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 12 1 power in clothes dryers and room air 2 conditioners; determination of the modes to be 3 incorporated; adding specifications for the

4 test methods and measurements for clothes 5 dryers and room air conditioners; standby mode 6 and off mode testing. 7 The calculation of energy use 8 associated with standby and off mode; measure 9 the energy consumption; correction of tests 10 describing energy factor calculation for 11 clothes dryers; correction of text reference 12 to room air conditioner test standard; and 13 compliance with other EPCA requirements. 14 Comments and issues from the 15 participants, as always, workshop participants 16 are invited to provide summary comments or 17 statements. Participants are also invited to 18 raise their issues on the test procedure NOPR 19 for discussion today. 20 The regulatory history, this is 21 always the most interest part. Clothes dryer 22 test procedure final rule, 41 Federal Registerea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 13 1 27,324 was issued on May 19th, 1981, 2 established test procedure with provisions for 3 measuring the energy factor. It currently 4 provides for measure of standby mode energy 5 consumption only for gas dryers in the form of 6 pilot energy consumption. 7 The room air conditioner test 8 procedure final rules, 42 F.R. 27,898 of June 9 1, 1977, and F.R., and so on, of June 29th, 10 1979. This rule established and amended test 11 procedure with provisions for measuring the 12 energy efficiency ratio EER; incorporated by 13 reference ANSI Standard Z234.1 issued in 1972 14 for room air conditioners; and ASHRAE Standard 15 16-69, method of testing for rating room air 16 conditioners. It does not currently provide 17 for a measure of standby or off mode energy

18 use. 19 And then we have the Energy 20 Independence and Security Act of 2007, 21 referring to as EISA 2007, which provides 22 amendments to the Energy Policy andea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 14 1 Conservation Act, or EPCA, and EISA directs 2 DOE to incorporate a measure of standby and 3 off mode energy consumption into its test 4 procedures for residential clothes dryers and 5 room air conditioners by March 31st of 2009. 6 It directs DOE to integrate such energy 7 consumption into the energy descriptor. 8 If technically feasible, DOE must 9 prescribe a separate standby mode and off mode 10 energy use test procedure if technically 11 feasible. 12 And finally, DOE must consider the 13 most current version of IEC Standard 62301 and 14 62087, which will be discussed in considerable 15 detail later on in this meeting.

16 And then there's also reference to

17 IEC Standard 62301 and IEC 62087 at the bottom 18 of page 7. 19 And at this point we're going to 20 have a test procedure overview that Judy Reich 21 will give. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Before Judithea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 15 1 starts, I did want to provide -- we kind of 2 switched the two items in the agenda. So I 3 want to provide now an opportunity for anybody 4 that wishes to make opening remarks, brief 5 summary statements about their concerns and 6 issues that they'd like to raise and perhaps 7 develop further as the day goes on. So let's 8 just do that now. 9 Yes, Gary.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: So I'm Fernstrom 11 representing the Pacific Gas and Electric 12 Company, and I'd like to make a brief 13 statement about PG&E's interest in test 14 procedures specifically. 15 PG&E is interested in having 16 accurate test procedures that correctly 17 reflect the energy use and energy efficiency 18 performance of products as they are used by 19 users, which may be consumers or industrial 20 customers. This is important for PG&E for two 21 reasons: one, because PG&E has a codes and 22 standard program through which it advocatesea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 16 1 for improved minimum efficiency performance, 2 and it has an incentive rebates program 3 through which it rewards products in the 4 market that offer superior energy efficiency 5 performance. 6 So having test procedures that 7 properly reflect energy use and performance is 8 important in both of those opportunities. 9 It's also necessary that this information be 10 widely available to PG&E and the public so 11 that it can determine which products fall into 12 exceptionally good and not so good categories. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 14 Other opening remarks? Yes,

15 Debra. 16 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 17 First of all, I just want to thank 18 DOE for having this meeting today, for getting 19 us the draft version of the NOPR to us a 20 little bit earlier before it was actually 21 published in the Federal Register. That was 22 very helpful for us to have that little bit ofea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 17 1 extra time there. 2 And I think, again, I will follow 3 on to PG&E's comments. AHAM believes in the 4 importance of these test procedures, that they 5 be accurate and reliable, and that they 6 adequately measure the energy use of the 7 appliances. 8 I think our biggest comment today, 9 which we will come back to, I think, several 10 times, but I will just summarize here, is our 11 concerns at this point with the differences in 12 IEC 62301, the current version, and the IEC 13 62301, committee draft two, which is nearing 14 publication at the IEC, and there are some 15 very significant differences there, and as 16 such, there are some significant differences 17 between what DOE is proposing and that 18 version. 19 So again, AHAM's main concern is 20 around that and harmonization with the rest of

21 the world. 22 Thank you.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 18 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Other opening

2 remarks? 3 (No response.) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then -- 5 MR. WITKOWSKI: Just one quick 6 announcement. I also want to mention that the 7 Websites are up and the information that you 8 have in front of you is available online if 9 you would want to. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 11 So then Judy. 12 MS. REICH: Good morning, 13 everybody. I am Judith Rich from Navigant 14 Consulting. 15 The first topic that I'm going to 16 be going through is exactly which products are 17 covered by the proposed amendments to the test 18 procedures, specifically the test procedure 19 amendments to address energy consumption in 20 standby and off modes. 21 The definitions for covered 22 products are codified in the Code of Federalea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 19 1 Regulations under 10 CFR 430.2, which contains 2 definitions for a whole variety of products, 3 and specifically for clothes dryers, provides 4 definitions for both electric and gas dryers. 5 The key descriptors here would be 6 that they are appliances that utilize a tumble 7 type drum with forced air circulation where 8 the heat source is either electricity or gas, 9 depending on whether it's the electric or gas 10 clothes dryer. 11 It is anticipated that these 12 descriptions will cover and the test procedure 13 amendments will cover dryers that are both the 14 conventional vented type of both gas and 15 electric, including standard size and compact 16 size units, and also condensing type dryers, 17 the so-called ventless dryers. 18 And in that category, it would 19 also include combination washer-dryers which 20 are appliances which have utilized the same 21 drum for both the washing and drying 22 functions. This would be somewhat distinctea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 20 1 from a stacked dryer where the dryer would 2 just be considered as an independent unit from

3 the washer. 4 For room air conditioners, the 5 same section of the Code of Federal 6 Regulations defines this product as distinct 7 from packaged terminal air conditioners, but 8 that is powered by a single phase electric 9 current and is designed for mounting in either 10 window or through the wall, and further it 11 describes the function to provide conditioned 12 air, which can include not only cooling but 13 ventilation and heating as well. 14 So, again, it's anticipated that 15 the amendments to the test procedure are going 16 to cover products that are roughly analogous 17 to the product classes that are specified in 18 the energy conservation standards, namely, 19 that these are room air conditions that are 20 either for single or double hung windows, and 21 under that category they can either be with or 22 without louvered sides and with or without aea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 21 1 reverse cycle to provide a heating function. 2 Additionally, the covered products 3 would include casement mounted, casement 4 slider or casement only, window type room air 5 conditioners. 6 Talk about when the effective date 7 is for the proposed amendments. DOE defines 8 the effective date for the test procedure as 9 when these amendments are codified in the CFR, 10 and that is proposed to be 30 days after the 11 amendments are published as a final rule in 12 the Federal Register, but it's important to 13 note that on that date, the test procedure 14 itself is effective, but that manufacturers 15 are not required to use those amendments to 16 calculate standby and off mode energy 17 consumption or for calculating to determine 18 compliance with the existing energy 19 conservation standards. 20 And, in fact, in order to provide

21 for those amendments to be used for 22 calculating standby and off mode energy use,ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 22 1 the concurrent energy conservation standards 2 rulemaking that's including standby and off 3 mode power will remove the clarification 4 that's going to be in the CFR at the date that 5 that energy conservation standard rulemaking 6 becomes effective, which is expected to be in

7 2014. 8 So let me get into the discussion 9 of the methodology and test conditions that 10 are being proposed to add into the test 11 procedure in order to perform these 12 measurements. The standard that is 13 considered, particularly as a result of the 14 requirement by EISA to do so, was IEC Standard 15 62301, and the current edition is the first 16 edition which was published in 2005. 17 I also want to point out that EISA 18 requires DOE to consider IEC 62087, which 19 relates to video and audio equipment, but 20 since we're talkinga bout clothes dryers and 21 room air conditioners and not things like set 22 top boxes or VCRs, IEC 62087 was determined toea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 23 1 not be suitable for consideration for these

2 amendments. 3 Alternatively, IEC 62301 is 4 appropriate. It covers household appliances, 5 measurement of standby power in various 6 household electrical appliances, which include 7 clothes dryers and room air conditioners, and 8 so, therefore, that one is applicable. 9 DOE is proposing to incorporate by 10 reference certain sections of IEC 62301, the 11 first edition. Specific parts of IEC 62301 12 that are proposed to be incorporated would be 13 clauses that relate to the test conditions and 14 clauses that relate to the actual methodology 15 that's used for making the standby power

16 measurements. 17 Section 4 of IEC 62301, the 18 clauses that are proposed to be incorporated 19 relate to, first, the characteristics of the 20 electrical supply, namely, the voltage, the 21 frequency and the wave form; also proposing to 22 include tolerances for the power meterea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 24 1 measurement, and these are areas which the 2 existing DOE test procedures don't address 3 and, therefore, are being added in. 4 The third part of Section 4, the 5 third set of clauses that are proposed to be 6 incorporated relate to the ambient room 7 temperature specifications, and in that case, 8 the existing DOE test procedures do provide 9 for ambient temperature requirements, but they 10 are somewhat different than would be 11 necessitated for standby and off mode 12 measurements. So we'll get into that in a few 13 sections, but specifically for the standby and 14 off mode measurements, proposing to use the 15 requirements from IEC 62301. 16 Then from Section 5, which relates 17 to the methodology, DOE is proposing to 18 incorporate a clause that clarifies that the 19 measurement of standby power is to be 20 conducted at the lowest possible power state 21 if, in fact, there is a short duration higher 22 power state which precedes that, for example,ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 25 1 if the display is inactivated after a certain 2 period, that the measurement would take place 3 at the lower power state. 4 And, secondly, the IEC clause 5 provides for a technique to measure an average 6 standby mode and off mode power if the 7 measurement is unstable. So it allows for a 8 measurement for either stable or unstable 9 standby power conditions and provides for a 10 description of measuring it over a 11 representative cycle of that power. 12 At this point we invite comment on 13 the adequacy of IEC 62301 for measuring 14 standby power in both clothes dryers and room 15 air conditioner, and specifically on the 16 suitability of incorporating those clauses 17 that were just discussed, and this is 18 identified as issue number one in the NOPR. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: So you mentioned 21 that the IEC standard calls for measuring the 22 power demand at the lowest level if, forea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 26 1 example, the display shuts off after a period 2 of time. Is that period of time defined? 3 MS. REICH: No, it is not, not in

4 IEC 62301. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: So lacking that 6 definition then, how would you know how to 7 apply the lower power use? Would it be, for 8 example, after two minutes, after a day, after

9 a month? 10 MS. REICH: Well, I assume that if 11 the product is used on a daily basis, that 12 we're talking about time periods that are

13 somewhat less than a month or a week or 14 probably even a day. The IEC test procedure, 15 I believe, does not provide a specific time 16 period because it allows for latitude among 17 different products that may take five minutes 18 or 20 minutes, and it would require some 19 determination in advance of how long that time 20 period is before the lower power state in 21 order to then conduct the test procedure. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: So I agree thatea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 27 1 some latitude is merited, but I also think 2 that DOE would be well advised to provide some 3 sort of general guideline as to what is 4 acceptable. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you suggest

6 what that would be? 7 MR. FERNSTROM: I haven't thought 8 about it enough to have a specific suggestion, 9 but I do think it's a loose end that should 10 well be tied down. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other 12 comments? Yes, Harvey Sachs. 13 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. 14 I also had not thought about that, 15 but second Gary's comments, only illustrate 16 them with an example, that I could readily 17 game this as we've seen with other products so 18 that the default were a display on a device 19 might be proclaimed to be five minutes going 20 to sleep on that display, but in fact the 21 consumer chooses and easily moves to leaving 22 that on for an hour or for permanent. We haveea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 28 1 certainly seen this with some classes of 2 office equipment, for example. 3 So that in that context I think 4 that to level the playing field for all of the 5 manufacturers, some guidance would be helpful. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: So if either of you 7 or any of you had ideas about how that general 8 guidance would be framed, I'm certain the 9 department would appreciate having your 10 comments as quickly as possible.

11 Debra. 12 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 13 I want to address this point, and 14 then I have additional comments. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. 16 MS. BRUNK: But I think it is 17 helpful to note in IEC 62301, both current and 18 draft versions, in the test procedure I 19 believe it's under Section 5, it does suggest 20 that you allow the product to stabilize for 30 21 minutes and then measure standby power. 22 So I think typically in, again,ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 29 1 the IEC framework that 30 minutes is the time 2 that, you know, the appliances or whatever is 3 allowed to get into it's low power state, and 4 then you would measure the standby power at 5 that point. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: And are you 7 suggesting that is what -- 8 MS. BRUNK: Yes, I'm suggesting

9 that. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: I just wanted to 11 clarify. 12 MS. BRUNK: For harmonization 13 purposes. So I just want to throw that out 14 there, but that is actually in the standard. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 16 And did you have some comments? 17 MS. BRUNK: I did. In general 18 AHAM does support use of IEC 62301. I think 19 as we've noted in many of our comments on all 20 of these products, we believe that this is a 21 standard that is, you know, most widely 22 accepted throughout the world, and everybodyea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 30 1 is looking at that. 2 I think there have been 3 considerable issues and concerns around the 4 current version, 2005-2006 Edition 1. I think

5 a number of us have all looked at that and

6 been somewhat confused at to what that means 7 and how to interpret it. 8 The committee draft two version, 9 which is out for comment at this point, 10 comments are due in January, and it is 11 expected to be published in July of next year. 12 It really provides some excellent 13 clarifications on all of these points. 14 In terms of the set-up and the 15 testing it remains very much the same, but 16 when it gets into the definitions of the 17 modes, it is very clear what should and should 18 not be incorporated. 19 So AHAM's proposal at this time is 20 really that we understand EISA 2007 and its 21 requirements. We believe it could be 22 interpreted that the standard does notea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 31 1 necessarily have to be finalized in order to 2 incorporate the most recent version, and I 3 think we're just looking at the effective date 4 of the standard is 2014, and concerns around 5 the rest of the world sort of moving forward 6 much faster than DOE in terms of some of these 7 definitions, and we feel it would be best to 8 use the information that we do have available 9 at this time. 10 And, again, the international 11 community through IEC has done a tremendous 12 amount of work in further defining standby and 13 off mode in particular power and what should 14 be incorporated into that. 15 Another option --

16 MR. SACHS: Excuse me. Can we ask 17 questions about that before we move to another 18 issue? Because you raise some important -- 19 MS. BRUNK: Sure, sure. That's 20 fine. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Harvey. 22 Ask a question.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 32 1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.

2 And I want to make sure that I 3 understand the import. I would like to 4 interpret this as asking for a delay of the 5 final rule without a change of the effective 6 date of the standard. Is that consistent with 7 what you meant to imply? 8 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk 9 with AHAM. 10 No, it is not what I meant to 11 imply. I'm not talking about a delay or 12 suggesting a delay. All I am proposing is 13 that DOE consider harmonizing with the IEC 14 draft version, knowing that that will be 15 moving forward. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Even if those 17 timetables aren't consistent? 18 MS. BRUNK: Well, I think it's a 19 question of how that might be done, and to Mr. 20 Sachs' point, maybe that would be through a 21 delay if the department felt that that would 22 be the best way to deal with the versionea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 33 1 issue. 2 But I think in general what we're 3 trying to put on the table is that that 4 version is out there and it is almost done. 5 Is there some way that either clarifications 6 from the committee? While the department may

7 not be able to reference the standard 8 directly, there may be a way to incorporate 9 clarifications of that standard into the 10 department's language for the test procedure. 11 I think there are multiple paths

12 that could be taken. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 14 Harvey. 15 MR. SACHS: Thank you very much. 16 My concern that I did not express 17 would be that if the final rule were to adopt 18 the draft that's not yet -- definitions from 19 the draft, it might improve the final rule, 20 but it would seem to me that it might project 21 a message of unilateralism by the U.S. in an 22 international standard process, and you hadea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 34 1 stressed harmonization. So that was why I 2 jumped to the conclusion that there might be 3 an implied request that we delay the final 4 rule until adoption of the draft version now 5 so that we could be effectively harmonized. 6 Were there other paths you were 7 thinking of? 8 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk 9 again. 10 That is one path. A separate path 11 might be to develop clarification language 12 that is based on the current committee draft 13 that could be incorporated into the DOE rule. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Or you said earlier 15 incorporated by reference or something like

16 that. 17 MS. BRUNK: Well, again, I don't 18 know everything surrounding this. It may be 19 very difficult to incorporate by reference 20 draft language. But that's where I think 21 we're proposing some sort of clarification 22 language that could be developed utilizingea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 35 1 that draft. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. 4 So if I could weigh in on this 5 issue, too, for PG&E, PG&E similarly supports 6 harmonization, but does not want to see any 7 significant delay. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 9 MR. BOWLEY: Yeah, this is Brice 10 Bowley. I'm with G.E. 11 I mean, I agree with you, Gary. 12 We'd have this date set out there at 2014, and 13 we don't want to see a delay either. I mean, 14 we'd like to process. 15 But as with AHAM's comments, we 16 think we need to harmonize with the draft IEC 17 version. Again, either whether that's 18 delaying or just incorporating the current 19 language of the draft into the DOE ruling. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 21 Yes, Debra.

22 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 36 1 If I might clarify, I think, I 2 mean, just to clarify it, I don't believe we 3 would certainly be looking at any delay in the 4 2014 effective date. I think the date that 5 may be at issue is what's in the law on EISA 6 2007, which is that March 31st, 2009 date that 7 I think is probably more or less what's under 8 discussion. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, please.

10 Luke. 11 MR. HARMS: This is Luke Harms 12 with Whirlpool. 13 I just want to echo AHAM's 14 comments that we support formalizing with IEC

15 62301. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then 17 proceed. 18 MS. REICH: The next question 19 that's raised is what exactly is standby mode. 20 EISA amendments to EPCA require that DOE 21 consider IEC 62301 in defining that, and if we 22 look at IEC 62301, it says that standby modeea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 37 1 is the lowest power consumption mode that 2 can't be switched off or influenced by the 3 user and that may persist for an indefinite 4 amount of time when an appliance is connected 5 to the main electrical supply in accordance 6 with the manufacturer's instructions. 7 This is somewhat at odds with what 8 the EISA amendments in EPCA provide as a 9 definition of standby mode. Those definitions 10 are that standby mode is a condition in which 11 the product is connected to the main power 12 source, and it offers one or more of very 13 specific functions that are either user 14 oriented or protective, and it goes on to list

15 them. 16 It can be that it reactivates the 17 unit by means of a remove switch or a remote 18 control; has an internal sensor or timer to do 19 the same function; or that it provides some 20 consumer function, such as providing 21 information or status displays or a sensor 22 based function, some sort of temperatureea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 38 1 sensor, end state humidity sensor. 2 And in considering, in weighing 3 the options for defining the standby modes, 4 DOE also notes that prior to the 5 implementation of EISA 2007, that a definition 6 for standby mode that was nearly identical to 7 IEC 62301 was incorporated into the dishwasher 8 test procedure. 9 Upon evaluation of these various 10 definitions, DOE decided or is proposing to 11 adopt the broader definition of standby mode 12 that's provided under EPCA for reasons that it 13 is more specific and provides greater clarity 14 by defining exactly what those user functions 15 are, and in addition, it also provides for or 16 allows for the option of measuring multiple 17 standby modes which could have different power 18 consumption characteristics, and it would be 19 desirable to accurately represent standby 20 energy use by capturing each one of these

21 modes. 22 So DOE is proposing to use thatea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 39 1 EPCA definition for the test procedures for 2 both clothes dryers and air conditioners. 3 We invite comment on what the 4 differences are between these definitions, and 5 those that are provided under EISA and those 6 that are provided under IEC 62301.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra. 8 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk, AHAM. 9 I think this is a good 10 illustration of kind of where we are at in the 11 harmonization process. The language in EISA 12 2007 was developed, in part, by using IEC 13 62301 committee draft one. And again, to 14 clarify, they are now committee draft two. 15 And it was recognized at that 16 point that the standby power mode definitions 17 were changing from lowest power mode at the 18 standby power definition to low power modes. 19 And then also these additional clarifications

20 were added. 21 So I think that describes the 22 differences between the EISA 2007 language andea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 40 1 the current draft of IEC 62301, and then to my 2 point earlier, then what has happened with the 3 second committee draft is just some additional 4 clarification even further on what standby 5 power modes would be. 6 So I think that just sort of 7 highlights how this process is sort of in the 8 middle of the international development and 9 clarification of this standard. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: How long has draft 11 two been available?

12 MS. BRUNK: Draft two has been 13 available since, I believe, November 1st, 14 October 15th, around that time. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So it has 16 only been out for a couple of months.

17 MS. BRUNK: It has bene out a 18 couple of months, correct. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then for 20 the department to figure out a way to 21 incorporate that in midstream here, you could 22 imagine that would be something of aea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 41 1 challenge. 2 Gary. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, it would be. 4 However, it might be easier for DOE if all of 5 the parties agree to it. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis. 7 MR. LEWIS: That's going to be a 8 question for General Counsel, and they're 9 unfortunately working on some high priority 10 items right now. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just thinking 12 about practicality of this in addition to the

13 content. 14 Ron Lewis. 15 MR. LEWIS: Part of the dilemma we 16 have you have just highlighted, that there was 17 a draft one and now there's a draft two, and 18 there's nothing saying that there wouldn't be 19 further revisions. So at what point, we have 20 things we have to move along with. So I think 21 the EISA language was general in nature. 22 However, the standing operating procedures asea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 42 1 far as I understand it is that we can only 2 incorporate -- in fact, we're going through 3 some issues with the Federal Register that is 4 very, very granular and they scrutinize 5 heavily incorporation by references, and they 6 demand that we give copies of the things that 7 we're incorporating by reference that they 8 review for consistency. So something that's 9 only draft mode I know would not get through 10 the Federal Register and be published as a

11 standard. 12 So we've got some issues that 13 General Counsel will have to make some calls 14 on. I think the issue is more how do we take 15 the knowledge, be informed by the activities 16 right now to believe that we can enhance the 17 current version that's existing right now and 18 finalized right now and do it in such a 19 flexible way that it doesn't become obsolete 20 before the effective date. 21 So it's going to be a challenge, 22 but to the degree that we've got informationea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 43 1 that would help us to carve the text and 2 develop language that's sustainable, but adds 3 some clarification, I think the essence of 4 your point, we would want to do that. The 5 methodology and our flexibility to do that, I 6 think, is somewhat limited, but it doesn't 7 mean that we don't want to try to do that. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: All of which means 9 that your comments today are especially 10 helpful to the department. 11 Harvey. 12 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. 13 As I'm trying to think through 14 these things, I'm first of all very 15 appreciative of comments by the manufacturers, 16 by G.E. in particular, that the effective date 17 is not the issue because that's when we begin 18 to harvest the energy savings from this 19 procedure. 20 What might be very helpful to us 21 who are not directly in this industry would be 22 to get a better understanding of which changesea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 44 1 really are going to cause heartburn if they 2 are not done in terms of the ability to 3 harmonize products internationally so that we 4 can focus on those which really would make a 5 difference. 6 Some things will have differences 7 in wording, but lead to very small 8 differences, if any, in how products are 9 tested, and there may be a few that are very 10 important, and this might be helpful as we try 11 to work with you with the department. 12 And the other thing that we would 13 very much like to think about with you all and 14 on our own will be the implications in 15 kilowatt hours per year for divergent possible 16 definitions as we go forward, which are things 17 that will make a difference in energy 18 consumption versus things that are 19 inconsequential in the national picture. 20 Thank you. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra, do you want

22 to follow on?ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 45 1 MS. BRUNK: Yes. Debra Brunk with

2 AHAM. 3 I think a follow-up to Harvey's 4 comment, as well as Ron Lewis' comments, I 5 would note that AHAM has developed a set of 6 guidelines for these different modes based on 7 the committee draft two for IEC 62301. Those 8 will be incorporated in our comments, but 9 really, this is an effort by the industry, all 10 of our divisions because they are affected by 11 standby power, to come up with something that 12 is representative, recognizing that the 13 committee draft two has not been available for 14 very long and recognizing that there are 15 issues with any kind of referencing of a draft 16 document. So those will be incorporated in 17 our comments and made publicly available. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey. 19 MR. SACHS: Thank you very much. 20 And we very much appreciate the 21 chance to review these. This is Harvey Sachs. 22 Ron, I'm hearing from you that itea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 46 1 may be possible not to incorporate by 2 reference, but to incorporate specific 3 language derived from the 63201 in the 4 rulemaking. 5 MR. LEWIS: Again, I would 6 specify -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis. 8 MR. LEWIS: -- General Counsel will 9 need to try and meet on this, but EISA directs 10 us to consider, and there's a current version 11 that's the only thing that we can really 12 consider right now from adopting by reference. 13 However, the language that helps 14 to clarify if there's something that's vague, 15 something that could use elaboration, we 16 certainly would explore the flexibilities 17 there with GC. How can we express things that 18 are DOE's interpretation of things that aren't 19 specific? 20 I don't want to speak on behalf of 21 the team, but GC will make that determination 22 of what flexibilities we have. EISA doesea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 47 1 direct us to the IEC, you know, code there, 2 the specific code, and the standing directive 3 from General Counsel is their interpretation 4 is when we are told by the statute to go to a 5 specific code and incorporate by reference, it 6 has to be a specific year, a version. That's 7 not a general thing that just is automatically 8 updated when somebody updates something. It 9 has to have, you know, a linkage to a specific 10 one so that somebody knows exactly what 11 they're being held to. 12 So we don't have the luxury of 13 saying, you know, as amended, as will be 14 amended, as will be changed. We have to link 15 to what's there, but to the degree that there 16 is confusion or lack of clarity or something, 17 that the definition is open to interpretation 18 of what it actually means, you know, we 19 certainly want to explore that to incorporate 20 any of these enhancements that are out there. 21 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs again. 22 Let me frame this as a veryea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 48 1 specific question, and I apologize for taking 2 the time now, but it's in the hopes that it 3 will help the process along. If other 4 affected such as our community and the 5 utilities were to comment in support of the 6 AHAM interpretations and of incorporating that 7 language, would this help you in your fight 8 with the absent GC ? 9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note for the 11 record the GC is not in the room at the moment

12 to defend themselves. 13 (Laughter.)

14 MR. LEWIS: That's correct. 15 MR. SACHS: I would have said the 16 same thing had they been here. Oh, I'm sorry. 17 MR. LEWIS: Certainly whenever 18 there's agreement and, you know, people feel 19 this is the right thing to do, that's always 20 helpful to have at hand. I think it's going 21 to come down to if there is any conflict 22 between what's existing.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 49 1 Where it's clarification, where 2 there's something that's vague and this is 3 helpful in adding precision and helping 4 interpretation, but if there's a conflict of 5 language or if there's a different 6 instruction, that's where we're going to have 7 a problem, and General Counsel is going to

8 have to make a call on that. 9 So to the degree that everybody 10 else is in agreement and supportive of the 11 language, it's good to know that, and it's 12 always better to have a sense of that, but I 13 can't make the call for General Counsel, and 14 I don't know as far as the team and Judy's 15 reviewing of the document if there are any 16 things that you're aware of that are in 17 conflict or look like between the second 18 draft, if you've seen that, and any 19 conflict --

20 MS. REICH: I have not seen the 21 second draft. So I can't say. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: And so, Debra, youea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 50 1 volunteered earlier that there may be several 2 different pathways to achieve this 3 harmonization for draft two. So you can 4 suggest those in your comments, any of you, 5 all of you. That would be helpful to the 6 department.

7 Ron. 8 MR. LEWIS: And, in fact, if you 9 have this document within AHAM that is 10 reflecting on the current draft, the second 11 draft, while we don't have a copy of that, 12 we're not party to that; that might be helpful

13 to better understand that draft. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: So Gary. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Just to go back to 16 the question raised earlier about when the 17 lowest power mode begins, I think the 18 reference to after a 30 minute stabilization 19 period is fine with PG&E. So I'd like to 20 bring that point out. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I 22 appreciate that specificity and thatea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 51 1 clarification. Okay, good. 2 So then final comments on this 3 segment before we move on? 4 (No response.) 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6 MS. REICH: Let me just comment 7 that while EISA requires considering IEC 8 62301, DOE actually looked more broadly at 9 whether there were other test procedures that 10 should also be considered. So reviewed test 11 procedure and methodology that was being used 12 or anticipated to be used in countries that 13 are recognized to be leaders in the standby 14 power arena, namely, Japan through its Top 15 Runner Program and Korea with its E-Standby 16 Program, and Australia which is very active in 17 standby power, and it was determined that the 18 procedures in use there are either similar to 19 IEC 62301, at least the existing version, or 20 actually reference that standard as well. 21 I think that we have talked about 22 the issue in some detail already about thisea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 52 1 updated version of IEC 62301 and why DOE at 2 this point is considering using the existing 3 version of the 2005 version, and I just want 4 to point out as Ron indicated that in the 5 event that IEC 62301 is finalized in an 6 updated version, that it's anticipated that 7 those amendments could be incorporated into 8 the test procedure only through another DOE 9 test procedure amendment. 10 All right. 11 MR. SACHS: Doug. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Harvey. 13 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. 14 Question, assuming that this 15 really does matter, the definitions, and we're 16 not able to get where everyone wanted to be 17 within the statutory time limitation, how 18 quickly could a technical revision of the test 19 procedure to update it be undertake? Could 20 that be done within a time frame that would 21 not impact the 2014 date? 22 This is perhaps exploring one ofea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 53 1 your alternative paths.

2 MS. REICH: I can't comment on the 3 DOE's scheduling of rulemakings. It, of 4 course, would also depend in part on when the 5 IEC 62301 standard is finalized, second 6 edition. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you know when 8 they anticipate the second edition will be 9 complete, Debra? 10 MS. BRUNK: They are anticipating 11 it will be published in June or July of 2009.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm not sure that 13 you're in a position. Ron Lewis.

14 MR. LEWIS: I can't comment on how 15 quickly we'd do it. It depends on 16 appropriations and the schedule, all of the 17 things that we have, obligations to updates 18 right now, and trying to fit it in. We 19 certainly would want to do it as quickly as 20 possible, but I can't give you, you know, that 21 we would immediately start on it. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: This may be theea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 54 1 kind of question you would direct toward 2 General Counsel. Is there a precedent for 3 something like a technical revision or 4 something like that for our existing test 5 procedure? 6 MR. LEWIS: I believe that there 7 are technical corrections that are possible 8 quickly, but if there's something that was in 9 error, you know, that was put in that was a 10 mistype or something else, but actual 11 especially changing -- if we're doing 12 incorporation by reference, it's fairly 13 complex. 14 The timing to make that happen, 15 the one thing that has been available for a 16 while that we would like to utilize wherever 17 possible, and this is where your 18 recommendation if we've got a note from 19 everybody saying we are in agreement to this 20 issue, that we do have available for us right 21 now that wherever we get a consensus proposal 22 presented to us, that we can do a NOPR and aea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 55 1 direct final rule simultaneously, and if there 2 are no serious objections to the NOPR, we can 3 execute the final rule very quickly, and that 4 saves us months of time, several months of 5 time. 6 So at a minimum we could do that, 7 but I can't give you a commitment right now 8 without looking at the schedule and without 9 knowing appropriations and all the rest.

10 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk of AHAM. 11 I think I'd just throw out on the

12 table that we do also have another NOPR 13 rulemaking on this test procedure to 14 incorporate some of the other changes to the 15 test procedures that were suggested at the 16 framework meeting. 17 So we have the standby issues, and 18 we also have at some point later on -- I'm not 19 sure what the timing is for that -- changes to 20 things like RMC and number of cycles and those 21 kinds of things to the test procedure. That 22 is also coming along with that. That may orea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 56 1 may not be an opportunity for something like 2 this. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary? Okay. So 4 we're going to be moving on then. 5 MS. REICH: In order to determine 6 exactly what are standby modes, DOE needs to 7 refer to EPCA provisions for defining not only 8 standby mode but active mode and off mode as 9 well, and it's noted by reviewing what the 10 definitions are for active and standby mode 11 that for each one of these products, for both 12 clothes dryers and room air conditioners there 13 are going to be specific functionality 14 associated with each one, and in fact, for 15 standby modes there will be multiple standby 16 modes that we'll talk about in the next slide. 17 Active mode is defined under EPCA 18 as the unit is connected to a power source and 19 is providing a main function. So it's 20 necessary to define exactly what that main 21 function is. 22 For clothes dryers DOE isea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 57 1 proposing that active mode is performing the 2 function of tumbling clothing with or without 3 heating the air that's being circulate for the 4 purposes of removing moisture from the 5 clothing and/or to prevent wrinkling of the 6 clothing, if that would be a period after the 7 main drying cycle where there's a little bit 8 of tumbling going on to keep the load fluffed 9 up. That would still be considered part of 10 active mode. 11 For room air conditioners, the 12 proposed amendments define active mode as the 13 function of heating or cooling a conditioned 14 space or circulating the air through the space 15 by means of fan or blower, and these can be 16 accomplished with or without energizing 17 certain air cleaning components, and it might 18 be a UV radiation function, filters, ozone 19 generator or some other means for air 20 cleaning. 21 We've talked about standby mode, 22 and the key here is that it's defining --ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 58 1 MR. BROOKMAN: We will pause now. 2 Gary? 3 MR. FERNSTROM: May we go back to 4 active mode for a second?

5 MS. REICH: Yes. 6 MR. FERNSTROM: The power demand 7 in the active mode tumbling, depending upon 8 whether the heat is being utilized or not, 9 would yield two different readings. Does the 10 definition and test procedure allow for two 11 different measures of power demand or energy 12 use in active mode? 13 MS. REICH: In the existing DOE 14 test procedure for energy factor? Is that the 15 question? 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I suppose 17 I'm not clear with respect to what. I just 18 want to make sure that we can get two measures 19 of energy use in active mode because the one 20 with heating would be different than the one 21 without. 22 MS. REICH: Right. It is myea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 59 1 recollection that the test procedure which is 2 calculate the existing methodology for active 3 mode is calculating an energy factor, and I 4 believe that that test is based strictly on a 5 heating tumbling cycle, that it does not 6 incorporate a measurement of tumbling without 7 heating. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Then let me 9 modify my question. Is the test procedure 10 consistent with the definitions then? 11 MS. REICH: Again, the test 12 procedure is intended to calculate an 13 efficiency for a drying cycle based on the 14 amount of energy required per pound of 15 clothing being dried. So the existing 16 efficiency metric is a per cycle metric for a 17 drying cycle with heat. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: Many of these 19 products have different drying cycles that you 20 can choose. So in which cycle mode, let's 21 say, are we taking the measurement? 22 MS. REICH: I believe it's a modeea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 60 1 that's defined as normal, which I assume is 2 intended to represent average conditions that 3 a user would be using the dryer under. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Well, let's 5 leave the question with respect to this 6 definition as it aligns with the test 7 procedure. I'd just like to make sure that 8 that's clear and tied down. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Brice, did you want

10 to comment? 11 MR. BOWLEY: Yeah. This is Brice 12 Bowley. 13 I guess to Gary's point, I mean, 14 talking about tumbling being a different 15 active mode than tumbling with heating, I 16 guess the problem you come to is that there 17 are so many different energy consumptions 18 depending on exactly which functions you 19 select, I mean, I haven't gone through them 20 all in a dryer, but I expect depending on 21 which functions you select you've probably got 22 ten or more energy consumptions, and it's justea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 61 1 real hard to define, you know, what percent of 2 the population is using that function for a 3 certain period of time. Just quantifying it 4 and tying an actual energy use to every 5 specific function I think is very difficult. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Judith, you 7 thought that what's being proposed is the term 8 "normal use" or something like that? 9 MS. REICH: Not being proposed. 10 What's existing in the current DOE test 11 procedure, the condition in which the dryer 12 cycle is conducted is a representative normal 13 temperature setting.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: debra. 15 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 16 I think to Brice's comment, a 17 couple of things. First of all, I think as we 18 get into these definitions of active and 19 standby, we're segregating out these different 20 functions more than we ever have before. So 21 I do agree that the DOE test procedure needs 22 to take a look at all of those things that mayea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 62 1 never have been defined specifically as active 2 or standby before, and look at, okay, does it 3 make sense to incorporate this measurement 4 into the test procedure. What is the energy 5 use? Is there some factor perhaps that could 6 be used that might adjust for this, that kind 7 of thing? 8 I think something like the 9 tumbling without heating might be something 10 like that where the energy use is relatively 11 small compared to tumbling with heating, but 12 does the test procedure capture it? And I 13 think that's a good question, and it would

14 need to be addressed. 15 So I think to Gary's point, I 16 think it's important to make sure that the 17 active use test procedures are consistent with 18 what we're talking about here. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: On my dryer at 20 home, you can do low, medium, high. 21 MS. REICH: Right. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: You know, there areea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 63 1 lots of variations. So I'm going for a point 2 here. Should the department try and specify 3 a minimum and a maximum within active mode or 4 how would you? This has a lot of potential -- 5 MS. BRUNK: Again, this is Debra

6 Brunk. 7 I think the way that certainly the 8 industry has tried to do this and certainly 9 AHAM standards try to do this as well is you 10 really try to take a conservative approach and 11 a representative approach. You don't want the 12 test to be burdensome. You want it to be 13 reasonably reflective of what the consumer is 14 going to use, and again, I think we tended to 15 err on the side of conservative. So you might 16 set it on all the highest settings. That's 17 going to give you the worst possible case. 18 I think it's just a matter of 19 making sure that some of these things are 20 actually addressed in the active use test 21 procedure so that we do know that it has been 22 accounted for or has been thought of.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 64 1 I think the key thing to keep in 2 mind though is the way that the DOE test 3 procedure is set up is it is a per cycle use, 4 and so if you have a cool down cycle or you 5 have -- well, we're going to do some of this 6 later -- it really kind of gets lumped into a 7 cycle from start to finish, and it's really 8 just a question of what you actually measure 9 there and how it's defined. 10 And I don't think -- certainly as 11 an industry we're not supportive of, you know, 12 having to separate all of these things out 13 because from a testing perspective that 14 becomes terribly burdensome, and you are also 15 looking at measuring extremely small amounts 16 of energy compared to the large amount of 17 energy that is actually what we're trying to 18 deal with here. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, to go to 21 Debra's comment, you also wanted to be 22 consistent and fair among all theea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 65 1 manufacturers. So brand-to-brand comparisons 2 are valid. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey. 4 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. 5 I think we need to draw a 6 distinction between what it is that we measure 7 in the laboratory and the numbers we generate 8 in terms of an energy factor or its 9 equivalent. As I've been thinking about this 10 this morning, it seems to me that if I do my 11 tumbling test on something that's arbitrarily 12 defined as normal, there's an awful lot of 13 permutation, combinatorial arithmetic that 14 could get involved. 15 If instead -- and there's a lot of 16 gaming that could get involved in terms of 17 encouraging manufacturers to shorten up the 18 cool-down cycle, to shorten up any kind of a 19 tumbling cycle, and to make that drum tumble 20 as slowly as possible, none of which I think 21 is particularly valuable for consumers. 22 So the question I would ask is ifea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 66 1 the measurement of the active cycle could not 2 be done in terms of watt-hours per rotation of 3 the drum with the heating element done. Now, 4 that can be done on a five-minute interval. 5 It's a steady state integration. I realize it 6 sounds preposterous, but from that basic 7 number, you both preserve, I think, some 8 flexibility for the manufacturers to vary 9 cycles and calculate some ES and a consistent 10 measurement that's a relatively 11 straightforward one to do. It's a counter in 12 a watt army, and obviously that's with the

13 same standard load. 14 But you're indicating that I'm 15 totally off in left field. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's hear

17 another comment. 18 State your name for the record. 19 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia, 20 Navigant Consulting. 21 I just want to clarify in the DOE 22 test procedure it says to measure it at theea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 67 1 highest temperature setting, not the normal. 2 MR. SACHS: I understand that, but 3 we are talking about the -- 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey, speak so we 5 can hear you. 6 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. 7 We are talking about the active 8 mode this will carry forward, but we are 9 talking about the active mode energy 10 consumption, and let's assume now it's a gas 11 dryer. So we're not worrying about the 12 heating element, the active mode when the 13 heating element of whatever type is turned off 14 in a cool-down cycle or an anti-wrinkle cycle. 15 Maybe I'm missing something. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Brice. 17 MR. BOWLEY: Well, I kind of have 18 a question because dryers are not my area. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: You have a question 20 rather than a clarification? 21 MR. BOWLEY: I do, yes. I guess 22 it's a question on the test procedure. Ifea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 68 1 there's a tumbling, if there's an option to 2 have tumbling or to turn it off, does the test 3 procedure allow the tumbling to be turned off? 4 Does anybody know that? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Can anybody answer

6 that? 7 MS. DETRICK: Paige Detrick, BSH 8 Home Appliances. 9 Today's procedure is a pure time 10 dry at the highest possible setting, and with 11 a fixed finishing percentage moisture. That 12 means you don't come to the point of this 13 cool-down state at all. So today it is not 14 incorporated. It is with being the highest 15 temperature program, it's a heated 16 measurement. You may get a little off-on in 17 any given dryer, but it's pretty much all

18 heated. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: I see, and so going 20 to Judith's earlier point, normal then it's 21 specified in the test procedure as the highest 22 or high.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 69 1 MS. REICH: Yes, I was incorrect 2 in stating that it requires a normal setting. 3 It requires the highest setting. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. Thank 5 you. 6 Gary. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: So then to go back 8 to my earlier point, if I understand what has 9 been said about the test procedure correctly, 10 there is no element of the test procedure that 11 provides for measuring tumbling action without

12 the heat on. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Paige is that what 14 you said? 15 MS. DETRICK: Yes. Paige Detrick. 16 In today's procedure that is 17 absolutely correct.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: But the new IEC 19 procedure, do we know? 20 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk 21 with AHAM. 22 The IEC 62301 procedure onlyea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 70 1 addresses mode definitions. What it says is 2 there are specific departments and energy 3 standards that should be used to deal with how 4 you would measure active energy use. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So that the 6 conclusion -- 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Just a second, 8 Gary. 9 So could you be a little more 10 specific? Could you say a little more about 11 the direction it's heading in?

12 MS. BRUNK: The IEC 62301 standard 13 only addresses how to measure energy in 14 standby and off modes. It very clearly states 15 under active -- it will define active mode, 16 but then it very clearly states that there are 17 specific standards for each product that are 18 being developed to measure active energy use 19 in a product, and that standard does not

20 undertake to do that. 21 So there are DOE test procedures 22 for measuring active energy use in a clothesea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 71 1 dryer. There are other test procedures around 2 the world that are used to measure active 3 energy use. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: They don't choose 5 to define it themselves. They rely on DOE and 6 other test procedures? 7 MS. BRUNK: They define what 8 active mode should be, and then what they say 9 is that other standards should then define how 10 high active energy use is measured and then 11 further specify how standby and off mode 12 energy will be measured for those. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: So thank you. 14 Thank you. 15 Gary. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: So my conclusion 17 is we have a mode of operation we've 18 identified for which there is no test 19 procedure to determine the performance

20 measure. 21 MS. REICH: This is Judith Reich. 22 These are all very good inputs,ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 72 1 but I'd like to clarify that the current test 2 procedure amendments are specifically for 3 addressing measuring standby and off mode 4 power. The reason why we introduce the 5 description of active mode is to say this is 6 not a standby situation that we're 7 considering, and so we are not in the current 8 rulemaking for this test procedure 9 contemplating how to more effectively measure 10 the active mode.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. That 13 helps a lot. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: That helps a lot, 15 yeah. Okay, okay. 16 So then additional comments on 17 this point before we move on? Yes, one 18 moment. Luke, please. 19 MR. HARMS: This is Luke Harms 20 with Whirlpool. 21 Debra, correct me if I'm wrong, 22 but according to you IEC 62301 active modeea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 73 1 would also include delay start and cycle 2 finish; is that correct? 3 MS. BRUNK: Yes, we'll get into 4 that, I think, with later comments. 5 MR. HARMS: All right.

6 MS. BRUNK: But thanks for 7 bringing that out. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 9 MS. REICH: We've already 10 discussed with the EISA definitions are for 11 standby modes, specifically the fact that it 12 provides some function, either the 13 reactivation of other functions or some 14 consumer interface or sensor based function. 15 The reason why it's also important 16 to define both active and standby mode up 17 front is that we are proposing amendments to 18 address off mode, and off mode is defined as 19 it's connected to the main power source and 20 isn't providing an active or standby mode 21 function. So we need to know what it is that 22 is excluded for off mode.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 74 1 Let's delve into the details of 2 what DOE is proposing to define as the 3 specific standby modes in off mode for each 4 product. 5 First, for clothes dryers, 6 apparently unlike what the new version of IEC 7 62301 is proposing, DOE is considering cycle 8 finished and delay start mode to be standby 9 modes rather than an active mode. 10 Cycle finish mode would be the 11 period after the drying or tumbling cycle is 12 completed, and that there is some sort of 13 continuous display available to the consumer, 14 whether that's status lights or a display 15 indicator that shows that that cycle has been 16 completed. 17 Delay start mode would occur prior 18 to the initiation of the tumbling cycle, and 19 in this case the user would be programming in 20 a certain period of time that the dryer would 21 be waiting prior to initiating the active 22 mode. Again, it's typically defined by aea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 75 1 display that shows the number of hours 2 remaining until the start of that active cycle 3 as a one or two-digit display.

4 So the fact that both of these 5 modes provide some status or display 6 information to the consumer would categorize 7 that as a standby mode under the EPCA 8 definitions. 9 I talked about those first because 10 inactive mode then is a standby mode that has 11 some sort of a standby function, but that's 12 not a delay start or cycle finished. 13 And then finally, again, off mode 14 is a condition in which DOE interprets that 15 definition to say that the product is 16 consuming power, but not for any of the 17 functions that are specifically called out 18 under the EPCA definition of standby. 19 I certainly invite comment on 20 these specific modes, the inactive delay start 21 and cycle finish standby modes and the off 22 mode, and would further invite any discussionea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 76 1 on whether there are additional modes that 2 haven't been identified. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Debra. 4 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 5 I think, again, we're going back 6 to the committee draft two version for our 7 comments. So you know where these are

8 referenced from. 9 AHAM's feelings are that delay 10 start is not standby mode, again, based on 11 this CD2 version of IEC 62301. Specifically 12 in this draft it states delay start mode is a 13 one off user initiated, short duration 14 function that is associated with an active 15 mode, and I think, again, this just highlights 16 one of the clarifications in this draft that 17 we've been talking a lot in the last year 18 about where some of these things fall because 19 this very clearly specifies where IEC believes 20 this should fall, and we believe this makes 21 sense with kind of what we talked about

22 before.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 77 1 It's part of a cycle, and it is a 2 consumer use function. The consumer 3 determines what they want to do with that. 4 Secondly, cycle finished, very 5 similar issue there. We would argue that it 6 is not a standby function. It is a limited 7 time feature. I think it goes back to our 30 8 minute stabilization period. If that cycle 9 finish display is, you know, power down prior 10 to your -- you know, while you're stabilizing, 11 then you know, that would not be incorporated 12 into your standby power measurement. 13 Obviously, if it stayed on, it 14 would fall in there. So actually describing 15 it as the second mode or separate mode may not 16 actually make sense. It may just need to fall 17 into standby if it does not have the 18 capability of powering down. 19 I will say that the definition for 20 inactive mode is consistent with the CD2 draft 21 of IEC 62301, although it is a little, I 22 think, confusing, and I'm wondering if weea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 78 1 might want to just call it a standby mode or 2 something like that to be consistent so 3 everyone is clear what that means, but 4 certainly the definition is consistent. 5 And then finally, I think one 6 thing that will come up, and it is something 7 that IEC is struggling with right now as well, 8 but the idea of not work mode is prevalent out 9 there in the international community. I think 10 when we start talking about things like peak 11 load sharing, ISO 2007, you know, requested 12 DOE and us to look into the smart grid 13 technologies. I think things along those 14 lines are going to come up. 15 So it's really a question of where 16 networking functions should fall, and I think 17 there are a couple of different things in 18 terms of how you look at what the appliance is 19 trying to do and where those fall, and again, 20 community draft two of IEC 62301 does address 21 some specifics on network load. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 79 1 Gary. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: PG&E agrees with 3 AHAM, with the caveat that if network mode is 4 on all the time, we think that should be 5 considered a standby function. If it's on for 6 limited times the user selection, then it 7 should be part of active. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments 9 on this series of mode descriptions? 10 Okay. 11 MS. REICH: For room air 12 conditioners, we've already discussed what the 13 active mode is defined as, and again, I'm 14 going to start by talking about two standby 15 modes that DOE is proposing as distinct from 16 an active mode, and the first one of these 17 standby modes is delay start. It's similar to 18 delay start for a clothes dryer in which the 19 user programs a certain time at which the room 20 air conditioner would be activated, typically 21 characterized again by some sort of time 22 display showing remaining time prior toea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 80 1 energization. 2 The off cycle mode has been 3 proposed as a condition in which the room air 4 conditioner is being used to provide cooling 5 on a time average sense, but during this 6 period there's a certain portion of the time 7 when the compressor and fan are cycled off, 8 turned off as a result of the temperature 9 sensor, indicating that at that point in time 10 no cooling is necessary. 11 But it's waiting for a signal from 12 a thermostat or the temperature sensor to tell 13 it that at a certain point when the ambient 14 temperature gets high enough that it would

15 come back on. 16 And it was considered that this 17 off cycle mode really could be thought of as 18 part of the active mode because the compressor 19 is cycling on and off and trying to maintain 20 on a large time scale the average temperature

21 of the room. 22 But it was noted that the existingea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 81 1 DOE test procedure for active mode only covers 2 the condition when the compressor is turned 3 on, and that it was felt that this was a way 4 to capture that energy use during the period 5 when the compressor and fan are not operating. 6 Oh, let me go back up. The 7 inactive mode then would be a standby mode, 8 again, that's not delay start or off cycle 9 mode. And similar to clothes dryers as well, 10 the off mode would be a condition which the 11 room air conditioner is consuming power for 12 something, but not any of the features that 13 are associated with standby power. 14 Again, very interested to hear 15 inputs on the definitions of these various 16 modes and whether there are additional modes 17 that should be considered.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra. 19 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 20 Same comments on the delay start 21 as we have for the clothes dryers. The same 22 definition we believe would apply.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 82 1 The off cycle load, as DOE 2 proposes it, is of concern to us. AHAM would 3 argue that that is an active mode and, again, 4 going back to this IEC 62301(c)(2), this draft 5 defines thermostats or temperature control 6 devices as part of the operating load or the 7 main function, and IEC 62301 then goes to 8 describe what active load is the main 9 function. 10 So, again, there's some 11 consistency or I should say some inconsistency 12 there with DOE's proposal and, again, these 13 clarifications on the draft of IEC 62301, and 14 AHAM does believe that thermostats should be 15 part of active load. 16 I think another thing to bring up 17 with both of these, delay start and the 18 thermostats, is these are features that could 19 be seen or should be seen as energy saving 20 devices, and what happens is if you start to 21 include these into a standby power -- and 22 Brice, help me out here if I'm wrong -- butea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 83 1 what you end up with is these units actually 2 get penalized for having these energy saving 3 features, including standby power as opposed 4 to the active energy use. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Brice.

6 MR. BOWLEY: I'll comment on that. 7 I mean, again, the delay start and off cycle, 8 they're not available on a large number of 9 units. Most of the mechanical control units 10 don't have delay start or off cycle, and they 11 are intended to provide some energy savings to

12 the consumer. 13 Delay start, I mean, obviously, 14 you know, you leave your house in the morning, 15 you turn your air conditioner off and set it 16 to turn on two hours before you come back in 17 the evening. You know, that's considered an 18 energy savings for the consumers in our minds. 19 You know, they're able to use that to maintain 20 control of their house and not use the 21 appliance throughout the day basically wasting 22 energy, and again, the off cycle is basicallyea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 84 1 where you're cycling the compressor and the 2 fan off. Again, that's not available on most 3 mechanical units. Usually the fan runs 4 continuous. So the off cycle is, again, seen 5 as an energy saving function that, you know, 6 saves energy by turning the fan off when you 7 reach the set point temperatures. 8 And the way basically these 9 functions have been grouped under standby 10 power, you're penalizing appliances with delay 11 cycle and off cycle models. They actually 12 look like they use more energy than a 13 mechanical unit that doesn't have these 14 functions. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: I'd add that it's 17 confusing to think of the air conditioner 18 being in an off cycle when I've turned it on 19 and it's just at the point in its active 20 operation where the compression and maybe the 21 fan has chosen not to run because the cooling 22 requirements have been met.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 85 1 So in my mind it's not very 2 reasonable to consider that an off cycle mode. 3 It's much more reasonable to consider it as 4 part of the active mode.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra. 6 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 7 I just want to make one more 8 comment again similar to what we made with 9 clothes dryers and certainly room air 10 conditioners also, have this issue of network 11 mode and your peak load power usage issues. 12 And so I think the idea of network 13 mode really gets to be a realistic and to be 14 consistent with the rest of the world, should 15 be incorporated into this test procedure. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you be more 17 specific in what way it would be incorporated? 18 MS. BRUNK: Well, again, I think 19 under clothes dryers I think it's a couple of 20 different things. I think if you're looking 21 at things like your peak load sharing, that 22 that really becomes an active mode becauseea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 86 1 your interaction with the grid is going to 2 happen while the air conditioner is on. 3 I think other network modes if 4 there's other things going on inside the house 5 or whatever should be specifically placed 6 under this network mode, which is set aside by

7 IEC 62301. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 9 Gary Fernstrom. 10 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, a further 11 thought on that. If the network mode energy 12 consumption to maintain communication with the 13 network and determine when an appropriate time 14 to operate is and is not is consuming energy 15 all the time, then I think it should be part 16 of standby. If it's like delayed start and 17 it's an occasional user activated 18 communication to maybe check and see what the 19 power grid condition is at the moment, then it 20 probably should be part of active mode. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 22 comments? Yes, Brice and then --ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 87 1 MR. BOWLEY: Well, one comment on 2 the network model, probably to Gary's point. 3 My understanding, some utility companies are 4 basing rebates on, you know, peak load 5 sharing, but there are some requirements in 6 there that you can't turn off the peak load 7 sharing. I mean, that's the only concern. 8 I agree if we can turn off the 9 peak load sharing basically, you know, 10 consider it as network mode according to the 11 new IEC test procedure or new IEC standard, my 12 only concern is that some utility companies 13 may mandate us in order for consumers to get 14 the rebates stay in peak load bearing mode. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So 17 regardless of whether the utility mandates 18 that the communication capability be 19 continuous or intermittent, there is an 20 implication for standby power demand and 21 standby energy use, and I would hope that 22 these networks would be designed such that theea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 88 1 power demand would be as low as possible and 2 the communication would be intermittent rather 3 than continuous, requiring a lot of annual 4 energy use. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary or pardon me. 6 Harvey, did you have a comment? 7 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. 8 I'm not sure if this is as 9 relevant to this product class as it is to 10 others, but in parallel with my comments on 11 clothes washers and tumbling efficiency, I

12 have a sense that one of the areas of future 13 product efficiency improvements is in the air 14 handling capabilities of the room air 15 conditioners. You're seeing a couple of 16 advanced motor types for small appliances. 17 There are certainly some other options in

18 terms of the fans. 19 In that context it makes the 20 potential for the ventilate mode that's just 21 bringing in unconditioned air to be larger as 22 an energy saving opportunity, and as I'mea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 89 1 listening to this conversation without having 2 read the test procedure, I am concerned that 3 we don't want to do something that would 4 penalize efforts to enable greater efficiency 5 paths through the air handling. In fact, if 6 anything, the test procedure somewhere -- and 7 I don't know if that's active or yet another 8 defined mode -- might want to be looking at 9 the ventilation efficiency as a surrogate for 10 the fan performance in general. 11 Again, I don't know how to do 12 this. I only want to flag this as an issue 13 where we want to encourage technology progress 14 rather than discouraging it. 15 Brice, I like your --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Are there 17 additional comments on this section? Because 18 we're going to shift to a different section 19 next, right? I would suggest maybe we're 20 about ready to take a break at this point. 21 It's by my watch 10:40, and so I'd 22 like to suggest take a break and we can resumeea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 90 1 at five minutes till 11. 2 For those of you who aren't 3 familiar with the building -- I think most of 4 you are -- there are restrooms on both ends of 5 the hall. Down on it would be the ground 6 level, or is it one --

7 PARTICIPANT: Ground. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: -- ground, the 9 ground level, there is a coffee shop down 10 there and they have refreshments and the like. 11 Please make sure you wear your badge while 12 you're in the building, and we're on the 13 eighth floor and 8E is the corridor so that 14 you can find your way back here. 15 Okay. So we're going to resume 16 five minutes to 11. Thanks for a good start 17 on the day. 18 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

19 went off the record at 10:41 a.m.

20 and went back on the record at 21 10:59 a.m.) 22 MR. BROOKMAN: So then we're goingea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 91 1 to continue. We are now going to hear from 2 Detlef, specifications for the test methods 3 and measurements for standby mode and off mode 4 testing. 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Thanks, Doug. 6 And in case anybody didn't get my 7 name, Detlef Westphalen. I'm with Navigant 8 Consulting. 9 I'm going to be talking about, I 10 guess, the test procedures and, you know, 11 additional specifications beyond IEC 62301. 12 As was discussed earlier, you know, the test 13 procedure has been based on the first version 14 of 62301, and you know, there may be some 15 debate there. If IEC could get a version two 16 pushed through immediately, then we could 17 seriously consider that. 18 But anyway, so 62301 was written 19 in a general way to allow specificity to be 20 put into different test procedures that would 21 be relevant to the particular products 22 involved, and so I'm going to be talkingea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 92 1 specifically about those additional 2 specifications. 3 First, for clothes dryers, auto 4 dimming displays, displays that might 5 initially come on at a higher energy level and 6 then dim down, DOE proposed that the test be 7 conducted after the power level has dropped to 8 its low level. 9 On delay start, I guess the 10 thought process and developing the approach 11 here comes out of observations of, you know, 12 what some of the different displays do, for 13 instance, indicating the hours until the main 14 function will start and different ways in 15 which that indication could be provided. 16 So there was also an observation 17 not specifically in tests of clothes dryers, 18 but other products that different indications 19 can lead to different standby wattage 20 measurements. So there was a desire to set a 21 standard test cycle for delayed start that 22 would cause numbers to be displayed that wouldea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 93 1 provide a representative average of the range 2 of numbers which would be likely to be 3 displayed, you know, over the course of what, 4 you know, typical consumers would put their 5 dryers through, you k now, typical use 6 patterns. 7 And I'm not going to go into the 8 details of how this particular sequence was 9 set up, but that's sort of the thought process 10 that went through in order to get an average 11 representative wattage measurement out of this 12 test, and so we settled on setting the time 13 delay for five hours and then waiting for the 14 power equalization or stabilization and then 15 doing a 60 minute test. 16 For clothes dryers, test room 17 ambient temperature, DOE proposes test room 18 ambient temperature consistent with the IEC 19 standard. This is not identical to the 20 temperature range for dryer testing, but the 21 temperature range for dryer testing in the 22 current test procedure is within the IECea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 94 1 range.

2 And so manufacturers would have 3 the option depending on how they test the 4 dryer if it's sequentially a test chamber that 5 would also test the drying functions that they 6 could use either range, you know. If they 7 test the product separately from a dryer main 8 function, then they could use the more relaxed

9 IEC standard. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: Could we go back 12 to the ambient for a moment? If I understand 13 this correctly, the room from which the dryer 14 draws make-up air could be 73 degrees plus or 15 minus nine degrees. Is that correct or am I 16 misunderstanding here? 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, what we're 18 talking about is now specific specifications 19 for a standby test, not a dryer performance

20 test. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Additionalea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 95 1 questions on this or comments? 2 (No response.) 3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Now, for 4 room air conditioners, some additional 5 specifications. We're following a similar 6 procedure, you know, similar thought process 7 in coming up with the delay start 8 specification, the test specification, and we 9 essentially came up with exactly the same 10 procedure using -- set the time delay for five 11 hours after stabilization to a 60 minute test. 12 Now, specifications for standby 13 and off mode testing of room air conditioners 14 on test room temperature, essentially the 15 specification here that was proposed is using 16 74 plus or minus two Fahrenheit and to use a 17 set point temperature of 79, and again sort of 18 a similar thought process that was followed 19 for setting the delay start specifications 20 that we wanted to select conditions which 21 provides representative average level of 22 wattage in what the display might be usingea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 96 1 that would represent a broad range of, you 2 know, the likely conditions that consumers and 3 the product would see. 4 And so we settled on the 74 plus 5 or minus two. Now, the understanding is that 6 some room air conditioners might have a 7 temperature display that is the actual room 8 temperature and some might have a temperature 9 display which is the set point temperature. 10 So we wanted to capture both of those in, you 11 know, a reasonable band and obviously with 12 more leniency on the set point temperature for 13 the space or the room ambient temperature 14 because that would be more difficult to

15 control. 16 And so we settled on the 74 plus 17 or minus two and the 79 for the set point. 18 These conditions obviously are a little bit 19 different than the ASHRAE 16-80 plus or minus 20 half a degree Fahrenheit, which is specified, 21 you know, for the DOE cooling performance 22 test. But the feeling is that these, numberea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 97 1 one, would be perhaps more representative of 2 the actual -- the 74 would be perhaps more 3 representative of the actual space condition 4 during actual use of the product and also 5 setting the set point higher than the ambient 6 was selected so that the unit wouldn't 7 actually be running and that you'd actually be 8 in a standby mode. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Brice. 10 MR. BOWLEY: A question regarding 11 this. Is the room temperature setting, is 12 this just for delay start or is this proposal 13 also for off cycle? 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, this was 15 done for all the standby testing. Okay. 16 You're going to have a test room for standby. 17 You wouldn't necessarily change the 18 temperature if you then test off mode or 19 inactive mode. 20 And so we invite comments. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on delay 22 start test procedure, Debra.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 98 1 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 2 I think just as was noted earlier, 3 AHAM believes that delay start should actually 4 be incorporated into active energy. I think 5 some of the considerations that DOE has put 6 forward in terms of how that might be measured 7 should be looked at for the active energy test 8 procedure perhaps. 9 One concern there is the 10 measurement and the fact that it can be 11 measuring a very, very small amount of energy 12 over, you know, a ten minute time frame 13 roughly and then incorporating that into the 14 much larger active energy use does lead to 15 some issues with accuracy. 16 I think the other concern that we 17 would just have is I think it would make sense 18 if DOE were to decide to measure delay start 19 or incorporate an actual procedure for 20 measuring delay start. It really should be 21 consistent with, again, kind of carrying on 22 this consistency mainly with IEC if it wereea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 99 1 decided that it would be measured in some kind 2 of standby mode that you have your 30 minute 3 stabilization period and then your ten minute 4 measurement period. 5 Again, AHAM doesn't support that 6 approach but rather supports the approach of 7 incorporating it into an active mode 8 measurement. And this would be true for both 9 clothes dryers and room air conditioners. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Brice. 11 MR. BOWLEY: A couple of comments, 12 one being the room temperature. You know, 13 basically we're putting a very tight tolerance 14 around this room temperature control with this 15 product which requires, you know, specialized 16 rooms and labs, which we have for measuring 17 the energy consumption during the active power

18 model. 19 But basically to stabilize a room 20 takes a significant amount of time, and to 21 have basically a lower temperature means there 22 has to be a dedicated room other than the roomea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 100 1 used for measuring active power. So it does 2 add to the requirements for testing. 3 Basically it would be a dedicated facility 4 just for measuring standby. 5 Looking through the test 6 procedures and the proposals, the only 7 function that actually would require a 8 different temperature setting than the 80 9 degrees would be potentially the off cycle 10 model, and when you look at the energy 11 calculations, I know there's a question later 12 on, but it accounts for approximately 0.01 13 percent of the total energy use of the 14 project. 15 Again, we think of that as an 16 active mode cycling off of the thermostat. It 17 contributes very little to the actual energy 18 use, and it adds a lot of burden to the 19 manufacturers to have to add a new facility 20 just to accommodate this new temperature 21 range. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Harvey.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 101 1 MR. SACHS: If it cannot be shown 2 that the temperature range tightness is 3 required, we certainly don't have problems 4 with relaxation. I would only want the record 5 to reflect that the fraction of the energy use 6 for the electric dryer in this cycle is quite 7 different from the fraction for the gas dryer. 8 Electricity use has become an energy 9 consideration that has been introduced. 10 So the .01 percent would probably 11 not be a good reflection of the energy use for 12 the gas dryer. I think that's why we're 13 having this conversation. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 15 Yes, Brice.

16 MR. BOWLEY: One other comment. 17 These have very defined set points where we 18 set at 79 degrees, but many of them we have 19 units that have basically mechanical control 20 knobs that still have some of these functions 21 that you would be measuring and there's no set 22 temperature to actually -- you know, I can'tea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 102 1 set it to 79 degrees. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So what then 3 would you propose? 4 MR. BOWLEY: Well, again, really 5 the only time we're interested in this, again, 6 is off cycle. So my proposal would be that we 7 consider off cycle an active mode and not try 8 to incorporate it into the standard. But 9 let's see. Basically it would be just to set 10 it to a low temperature -- to the highest 11 temperature. Excuse me. To set it to the 12 highest temperature and leave the room at 80 13 degrees. I think most of the units would

14 accommodate that. 15 My proposal would be to include in 16 the active mode. 17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, I think if 18 you had a mechanical unit, you wouldn't be 19 measuring -- you may be measuring off cycle, 20 but you wouldn't see differences because there 21 wouldn't be a display. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Additionalea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 103 1 comments? Yes, Debra. 2 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM. 3 Just additional comments to 4 support G.E.'s comments in regards 5 specifically to room air conditioners. Again, 6 there is the issue of the difference in the 7 ambient temperatures between the standby mode 8 measurements and the active mode measurements 9 and that is some concern. Again, we're 10 looking at different test chambers, and that 11 can be difficult when you're trying to do 12 these climate control rooms. 13 I think the other concern that 14 Brice brought up is as we mentioned before, 15 this off cycle measurement of the thermostat 16 we feel really should be put into active mode, 17 and if you do that, then that no longer 18 becomes an issue for what the temperature 19 needs to be for measuring standby. That could 20 actually be measured then in the control room 21 that you do for the active test, and it still 22 is within the IEC bounds. It's on the upperea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 104 1 end, but it is within the IEC bounds for the 2 temperature specifications. 3 MR. LEWIS: Before you move on. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. Ron 5 Lewis. 6 MR. LEWIS: I just checked with 7 General Counsel on some issues that came up 8 earlier, and I was correct that we can't 9 incorporate anything in the draft that has not 10 been approved and is not a final product. The 11 pathways that may be open to us as far as 12 flexibility with language, the quickest 13 pathways if it's just a correction, so if the 14 draft two was only correcting errors in the 15 earlier version and there wasn't anything of 16 substance, there's a quick way to do that, but 17 what I heard this morning it didn't sound like 18 that was limited to corrections. It's changes 19 in actual criteria.

20 So we need to look at the 21 language, and the more you can put in your 22 comments as far as specifics and trying to seeea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 105 1 how we can incorporate it, but it is not 2 possible for us to reference a document that 3 has not been approved and incorporate it by

4 reference. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 6 So then before we move on, 7 additional comments on delay start test 8 procedure. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think these 10 comments apply to all of the specifications 11 regarding all of the test procedures. 12 I think we already covered 13 comments on test room conditions. So the next 14 section addresses calculation of energy use 15 associated with standby modes and off mode. 16 I guess first of all, calculating 17 the energy use essentially is wattage times 18 hours in the year equals energy use for the 19 year. That's pretty straightforward. What's 20 not straightforward is establishing what are 21 the correct number of hours per unit, and so 22 most of this discussion addresses that.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 106 1 So starting with clothes dryers, 2 looking at the current test procedure, there 3 is a precedent set by the gas pilot where 4 number of hours are selected as being active 5 mode hours per year, specifically 140, and 6 that the rest of the year is associated with 7 the gas pilot or standby mode. 8 So DOE proposes to adopt the 140 9 hours that set as a precedent for the active 10 mode, and then associate the remaining eight, 11 620 hours with standby and off modes. 12 And so some investigation was 13 done, really very limited data that would 14 really indicate how many hours are associated 15 with each of these modes, especially since 16 some of these features of these products 17 haven't really made their way into the bulk of 18 the existing market. 19 One study that was looked at was 20 one conducted in 2000 in Australia. That 21 admittedly is some time ago. The average age 22 of the dryers was 11 years, which puts us backea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 107 1 to 1989. However, here's some information. 2 There's probably less drying going on in 3 Australia, 15 minutes for drying in the active 4 mode per day. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: It's one a dry 7 day. They dry their clothes on one. 8 Zero time for delay start and 9 active standby, and there again looking at the 10 average age of these dryers, one might surmise 11 that they have mechanical controls and don't 12 have these modes. And then the remaining 13 hours were split five percent per cycle 14 finished or what was called in Australia end 15 of program, and then 90 percent for off mode. 16 So as mentioned, due to the 17 suspicion that the average age of the dryers 18 in the study is such that they probably didn't 19 have, you know, all of these modes, you know, 20 we're not going to draw conclusions about the 21 zero hours spent in those modes. 22 A different study that we foundea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 108 1 upon clothes washers in Australia and New 2 Zealand, and this was on products that were 3 actually monitored, and they did have more 4 sophisticated controls and they could be 5 monitored, showed that the average amount of 6 time spent in delay start mode per wash cycle 7 was approximately five minutes. 8 And we feel that in the absence of 9 additional good or better data, that you know,

10 the results for clothes washers could be 11 applied to dryers. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: A comment on that. 14 If you were to average the time associated 15 with delayed start, you'd be averaging a few 16 uses of the delayed start feature with many 17 non-uses. So you probably would get a very 18 low average. 19 However, for those people using 20 the delayed start, the delay might be 21 significantly longer than five minutes, right?

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Correct. Theea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 109 1 attempt is to come up with a time that if 2 averaged out over, you know, a representative 3 population of users, you know, this is time 4 per cycle or time per year. 5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: And obviously, if 7 you use it differently, you'd have different

8 results. 9 So based on these two information 10 sources, you know, a typical modern clothes 11 dryer might spend a small amount of time in 12 delay start. Here we're using the five-minute 13 per cycle suggestion. The 416 cycles per 14 year, which is specified in the DOE test 15 procedure, giving 34 hours per year for delay 16 start limit. 17 And then the time not associated 18 with active mode or delay start mode we're 19 proposing to be split as suggested by the 20 dryer study, five percent to cycle finished 21 and 95 percent to off or inactive mode. I'll 22 talk more about the off and inactive and howea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 110 1 that splits. 2 But for a representative dryer, I 3 believe this is energy factor 3.01. You know, 4 this is how the energy use might stack up 5 according to these estimates of hours, and 6 here we have a representative of typical 7 wattages. The wattage for the active mode is 8 simply dividing the annual energy use by the 9 hours that are specified in the test 10 procedure. 11 Delay start, 34 hours, as 12 mentioned previously, the suggestion that 13 maybe there will be three watts. I mean, 14 there are ranges. It's in the ball park. It 15 might be a little bit high for a modern 16 product. You know, you get annual energy use 17 of .1 and, you know, likewise for the other 18 modes, and so this gives some indication of 19 how much energy is used for these standby and

20 off modes. 21 And so depending on which of these 22 modes are present in a particular product, youea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 111 1 have a matrix of hours that would be 2 associated with, and this can be described 3 through logical statements as it is in the 4 test procedure draft. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 6 Yes, I presume that as we're going 7 through these charts that people are going to 8 comment if they don't agree with these 9 assumptions or these derivations. 10 Gary. 11 MR. FERNSTROM: Could we go back 12 to the last chart, please? Clearly, the 13 annual energy use associated with delayed 14 start and finish cycle is pretty 15 insignificant. Are we capturing in these 16 measurements the energy use associated with 17 the display that the appliance might have? 18 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, when the 19 measurement is made, that would measure the 20 wattage consumed by the display and anything 21 else that might be active -- sorry -- that 22 might be energized -- don't want to use theea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 112 1 term "active" in the wrong sense -- and that 2 might, you know, add up to the three watts 3 roughly that we're talkinga bout. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: So the display 5 energy use would be captured in the mode off 6 or inactive; is that correct? 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yes. If 8 there's a display when the unit is in off or 9 inactive mode, it would be captured in the off 10 or inactive measurement. There might be a 11 display in some of these other modes as well 12 that would be captured in the measurement for

13 those modes. 14 Does that answer the question? 15 MR. FERNSTROM: I believe it does. 16 So an annual energy use in the range of four 17 to 24 kilowatt hours is pretty low, and that 18 would indicate that for the 8760 hours a year 19 minus the number of hours the appliance's 20 inactive delayed start and cycle finish mode, 21 which would be a larger number of annual 22 operating hours, the power demand presented byea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 113 1 the display would have to be very, very low. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yeah. I 3 mean, manufacturers can comment if the half to 4 three is representative of products, but --

5 MR. FERNSTROM: So let me ask the 6 manufacturers. Do current dryers in 7 production have very, very lower power demand 8 displays?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I see a few 10 manufacturers nodding their head. Brice, 11 you'll speak on the record? 12 MR. BOWLEY: This is Brice Bowley,

13 G.E. 14 I can't answer specifically for 15 dryers, but as far as displays, the half to 16 three watts is typical of displays on other 17 appliances. So I expect that would be typical 18 of dryers as well. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, go ahead.

20 Debra. 21 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk

22 from AHAM.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 114 1 All I would want to say is, yes, 2 we believe these are typical. I think one 3 thing to be careful of here though is we're 4 kind of in the chicken and the egg scenario 5 here. We were just kind of finishing up, I 6 would say, at least from the U.S. perspective 7 defining some of these definite defining 8 standby mode and off mode and all of that kind 9 of thing. 10 So I think once we feel now we 11 have a fairly good route is now we can go back 12 and actually measure these and have some 13 better idea of whether all of our products 14 fall into these rounds. I think before this 15 we've had difficulty doing that because of the 16 vagueness of some of these test procedures. 17 So, again, I would mention that 18 our senses, yes, I think these numbers are 19 good and based on the small amount of data 20 available not only on use and standby modes 21 and those kinds of things, we think this is 22 probably fairly representative.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 115 1 I think once we have a more 2 finalized test procedure for measuring standby 3 mode and off mode, we would certainly have a 4 better idea of if these numbers are realistic 5 and can comment more effectively on that. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Paige. 7 MS. DETRICK: Yes, Paige Detrick,

8 ESH. 9 Yeah, I can't comment on exactly 10 numbers for the reasons cited by Debra and 11 others. However, they are typically very, 12 very low because these displays are simple, 13 small count LED type displays pretty much 14 exclusively I'd say. 15 However, these very, very small 16 amounts of energy go back to some of the other

17 comments that have been made about the 18 difficulty in measuring that kind of tiny 19 amount of energy with great accuracy, and 20 multiplying it out you get more error from 21 this than perhaps it's worth, and this goes 22 back to the suggestion that a factor, aea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 116 1 correction factor be placed in and included in 2 active mode rather than some of these things 3 being split out into little, tiny minuscule 4 pieces and trying to sum them back up. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Is there a 7 suggestion there that the test equipment 8 required, for instance, by IEC 62301 really 9 doesn't provide enough accuracy? 10 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk

11 from AHAM. 12 I don't think there are issues 13 with the test equipment per se. I think it 14 comes down to if you are measuring a very low 15 wattage, and I think they're going to take it 16 down to, say, half a watt. I think there's 17 some degree of accuracy there or precision, 18 which. I always get confused which is which, 19 but as soon as you start multiplying by a lot 20 of these assumptions, it just becomes somewhat 21 -- you're taking a very, very small number and 22 then multiplying it, you know.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 117 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis. 2 MR. LEWIS: I just want to. 3 Earlier today somebody had reminded us at a 4 very appropriate time that the issue today was 5 to look at standby mode and active mode, 6 standby and off mode, that the statute that 7 we're responding to here, that we're doing 8 this amendment to an existing test procedure 9 was specifically referencing the IEC existing 10 standard, and it specifically commanded us, 11 directed us to go and look at these 12 provisions, the standby and the off mode. 13 So we're executing what we're 14 directed to do. So the logic in trying to 15 discriminate between what is standby and what 16 is off, we're trying to be as precise as we 17 can be and be in concert with the IEC 18 definition as much as possible and try to do 19 all of the things we're directed to do. 20 As far as the logic and the 21 difficulties with precision, being able to 22 measure something where we want to beea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 118 1 sensitive to that, it's only within the degree 2 of, you know, what we're commanded to do. If 3 we're commanded to define and there's a 4 definition for standby, then the consequence 5 of that definition is you need to measure it. 6 So, you know, in looking at how we go about 7 that, then how that goes into a standard, you 8 know, that this test procedure is only to show 9 that you're in compliance with the standard, 10 that's another question for the future on the

11 tolerances. 12 But I think there are many things 13 in play, and we need to once in a while go 14 back and recheck what is the actual mission 15 here, and the mission is we were directed by 16 Congress to look at standby and off mode. 17 What is connected to that, the definitions, 18 the IEC relationship. 19 So this was not a free form DOE go 20 do what you want to do with it. So the 21 discussion is always helpful to understand the 22 complexities, but it doesn't necessarily meanea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 119 1 that we have the flexibility to make a lot of 2 changes. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, Doug, 5 I'd like to make an observation about the off 6 and inactive energy use, and four to 24 7 kilowatt hours a year might not seem like 8 much, particularly relative to the 967 9 estimated in active mode. However, when 10 you've got a gazillion appliances around the 11 house, your dryer, your washer, your 12 dishwasher, your refrigerator, your microwave, 13 your oven, all of these things, having this 14 standby energy use, it adds up, and we would 15 very much like to see the annual use be down 16 in the range of four to eight kilowatt hours 17 rather than up toward the 24 kilowatt hour end 18 of the range because there are many appliances 19 that add up in the home using this energy. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 21 Additional comments on this chart 22 and these figures and imbedded assumptions?ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 120 1 (No response.) 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think we talked 3 about the matrix of hours. 4 Then the next topic here is 5 splitting the off and inactive modes. We have 6 a number of hours here in off and inactive 7 mode depending on what modes are possible for 8 the product, and then how do you split those 9 between off and inactive? 10 So DOE proposes that if both modes 11 are available or possible for the product, 12 that you split them half and half in the 13 absence of any good, solid information as to 14 what would be more reasonable. If only 15 inactive mode is possible for the product, 16 then obviously that would be the mode that 17 would have those hours, and if only off mode 18 is available, then obviously that mode would 19 be associated with those hours. 20 And this slide just basically says 21 what I said earlier, that energy use is for 22 each mode the wattage time the hours, and thenea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 121 1 you sum up the results, make some conversions 2 so that we're talkinga bout kilowatt hours, 3 and then for the per cycle energy, divide by 4 the 416 cycles per year for a dryer. 5 Now, we have also presented an 6 alternative approach to what I've just 7 discussed and basically observing that in this 8 table here that the amount of energy 9 associated with the delay start and cycle 10 finish is actually pretty low, and so another 11 possibility is that we only specify hours for 12 off and inactive modes and basically take all 13 of the 8,620 hours which are not associated 14 with active mode and allocate them to inactive 15 and off. So that's an alternative proposal 16 that could be considered. 17 And at this point I guess we 18 request comment on all of the foregoing, on 19 establishing the energy use and standby of the 20 dryers.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra.

22 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 122 1 I think we've covered a little bit 2 around the accuracy on these tests. Again, I 3 think, you know, in general AHAM supports the 4 estimates that DOE has come up for these 5 values, but I think ultimately the alternative 6 approach -- we've spent a lot of time talking 7 about this -- the alternative approach we 8 believe makes the most sense where you're 9 talking -- let me make sure I get the right 10 wording here -- you're often in the active o 11 defining those together and looking at those 12 wholly, and your delay start and cycle finish, 13 because they are low energy use, are not 14 really taken into account, so to speak, and I 15 think that also goes with our earlier 16 proposal, is that those would just get rolled 17 up int active mode, and I think the only thing 18 we might request is that there just be some 19 specification at some point where those 20 actually do fall into. 21 But I think just from the energy 22 that we're talking about and the simplicityea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 123 1 and actually carrying out the test, coming the 2 off and the inactive both could be measured 3 separately but then combining them and 4 calculating hours for those would make the

5 most sense. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Can I just get 7 some clarification? Are you taking the step 8 or suggesting that some of the hours that we 9 suggested might be associated with off cycle 10 or delay start, would then be -- I'm mixing 11 products here, cycle finish -- would then be 12 allocated as active mode hours so that we're 13 essentially reducing the 8620 a little bit?

14 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk. 15 I think that would be correct and 16 would be consistent with our proposal earlier 17 in terms of privatization with IEC, just to 18 keep things clear. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Thank you. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 21 comments? Yes, Brice. 22 MR. BOWLEY: Brice at G.E.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 124 1 The only concern I would have 2 about allocating the cycle finish and delay 3 into the active, to adding those hours there 4 is basically if you're adding those additional 5 hours without the actual heat, I mean, it 6 seems like you need the test revised before 7 you start adding those hours to the active 8 model and multiply it to get your energy usage 9 because those, again, are low energy use 10 functions, and if you add those hours to the 11 active model, it's going to inaccurately 12 inflate the actual energy usage. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. I don't 14 think that's -- I mean, I even thought through 15 exactly what Debra's suggestion would lead to, 16 but I don't think that would necessarily mean 17 that, I mean, unless you're separately 18 measuring those modes and then somehow adding 19 them in. 20 MR. BOWLEY: Well, what I'm saying 21 is right now we have active at 140 and all 22 other modes at 8620, right?ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 125 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: I guess my point 2 is just that the 140 hours doesn't factor into 3 the annual energy use calculation at all for 4 active mode. 5 MR. BOWLEY: Okay. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: So I don't think 7 it would. 8 MR. BOWLEY: Okay. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: By following her 10 suggestion, it would only reduce the 8620 and 11 reduce the amount of energy associated with 12 that inactive and off. 13 Okay. So we'll move on to 14 calculating energy use for standby and off 15 modes for room air conditioners. And, again, 16 it's the same situation. The energy use is 17 the wattage times the hours per year, and then 18 summing up the energy use for the different

19 modes. 20 And the key challenge is to 21 determine and agree on what are the 22 appropriate number of hours. And so one ofea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 126 1 the first observations made is that, well, not 2 all room air conditioners are plugged in 3 throughout the year, and DOE made an estimate 4 of how much unplugged time there is on average 5 spread out over all air conditioners by 6 assuming that half of the units are unplugged 7 for half the year. 8 And you know, if there is better 9 data than that assumption out there, we 10 welcome that. But basically that adds up to 11 2,190 average annual unplugged hours. So the 12 plugged in hours add up to 6,570 essentially 13 subtracting the two numbers. 14 Now, the cooling season, this gets 15 a little bit more complicated for room AC than 16 for dryers, and we'll step through it step by 17 step here. It's assumed that the prime 18 cooling season lasts 90 days a year, which is 19 2,160 hours, essentially three months, and 20 that during this time, the room air 21 conditioners spend 750 in active cooling mode. 22 Now, that's the number of hoursea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 127 1 associated with active cooling mode in the 2 current test procedure. 3 Looking at delay start, it is 4 assumed that ten percent of room air 5 conditioners that have a delay start mode 6 function will using the function for ten hours 7 a day during the cooling season, and again, 8 you know, if there are good estimates of what 9 would be more accurate estimate of typical 10 usage patterns, we welcome that. 11 Ninety days times ten hours a day 12 for ten percent of the units, that's average 13 90 hours annually in delay start mode. 14 So then of the 2160 cooling season 15 hours, we subtract the 750 active cooling mode 16 hours and the 90 annual averaged out delay 17 start mode hours, and we get 1,320 remaining 18 cooling season hours, and then we make sort of 19 an arbitrary assumption here that we think 20 it's reasonable that these hours might be 21 split equally into the three of these modes 22 listed below that are applicable for thatea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 128 1 particular product. 2 Fan only mode, this is the mode in 3 which, for instance, for a mechanical control 4 unit in which the compressor shuts down and 5 the unit is in constant fan mode when the 6 compressor is cycled off. Some units also 7 have the option for the user to set the 8 ventilation mode. 9 Then off cycle mode for some of 10 those hours, and then inactive mode. 11 So the inactive and/or off mode 12 hours, we have some of those as discussed in 13 the previous slide from the cooling system, 14 and then for the rest of the year it's assumed 15 that all of those remaining hours are off and 16 inactive. So that would add up to 4,410, 17 which are then added to the cooling season 18 off, inactive hours. 19 So for an example, where three of 20 those possible modes are applicable for the 21 product, we have 440 additional hours that 22 would add to the 4410 to get for this productea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 129 1 4850 annual inactive and off mode hours. 2 And so for a typical product and 3 8,000 BTU per hour room air conditioner with 4 a 9 EER rating, if all the modes are 5 possible, we get the following breakdown of 6 the hours, and I've also indicated typical 7 wattages, again, and some of these numbers are 8 a little bit different than what we've seen on 9 the dryer chart, but they're essentially the 10 same order of magnitude. 11 And then we get the annual energy 12 use calculation for these different modes, 13 pretty much the same as I showed on dryers. 14 And, again, you know, we have the 15 matrix of hours that would be established for 16 each product depending on which of the modes 17 are applicable for it. 18 Again, splitting the off and 19 inactive modes into which ones are appropriate 20 depends on the product. If the product is 21 capable of having both of these modes, then 22 the proposal is to split those hours equally.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 130 1 And again, the calculation is for 2 each mode wattage times the hours for the year 3 gives the energy, and then divide by 1,000 to 4 convert to kilowatt hours. 5 Again, we have put forth this 6 alternative approach, recognizing that the 7 delay start and off cycle modes represent a 8 small number of hours leading to a small 9 amount of energy use, and that an alternative 10 proposal might be that we associate all of the 11 non-active hours, which totals 5,115, allocate 12 those to inactive and off modes. 13 So we seek comment on all of that, 14 establishment of the hours for the different

15 modes. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Debra.

17 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk from AHAM. 18 I think similar to what we 19 mentioned with the clothes dryers, we would 20 support DOE's alternative proposal, again, 21 just for simplicity. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Brice.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 131 1 MR. BOWLEY: Yeah, again, G.E. 2 would support the alternate proposal of 3 measuring just active and the off and 4 inactive, again, since delay start and off 5 cycle represent a very low energy usage. 6 Another comment on this is that 7 the delay start and off cycle, really the 8 hours again there come off of the active mode. 9 I mean, you're not -- the off cycle would not 10 -- whether a product has off cycle or not, 11 would not affect the amount of standby time 12 because it's going to affect the amount of 13 actual active run time. 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: You're saying the 15 off cycle -- 16 MR. BOWLEY: Well, an off cycle 17 does not reduce the amount of standby time. 18 It reduces the amount of active run time. 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I guess 20 according to the way -- I mean, we're talking 21 about 750 hours active.

22 MR. BOWLEY: I understand.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 132 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: And I understand 2 that for a given situation -- I think your 3 comment applies perhaps more to the delay 4 start than the off cycle. 5 MR. BOWLEY: I think it applies to 6 both really, and you're not reducing the 7 compressor run time. You're reducing the fan 8 run time. 9 Well, I'm sorry. Delay start 10 reduces both, compressor and fan. 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right. 12 MR. BOWLEY: Off cycle reduces fan 13 run time. 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right, but nobody 15 is measuring fan only. 16 MR. BOWLEY: I understand, but I 17 mean, the point is the way it's written now 18 and the way the hours are allocated is why a 19 mechanical unit without delay start and off 20 cycle, the mechanical unit without those 21 functions seems to perform better than a unit 22 with those functions because they're allea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 133 1 allocated to a standard. 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, I

3 understand. 4 MR. BOWLEY: Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on 6 this series of slides? 7 MR. SACHS: I would just say that

8 we would share that concern of features that 9 really tend to discourage the advanced 10 technologies. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Harvey. 12 Okay. Judith, are you up net or 13 are you continuing? 14 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think Judy was 15 going to be presenting the measures of energy.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 17 MS. REICH: All right. The next 18 topic is fairly straight forward. It's what 19 are the proposed measures for energy 20 consumption that incorporate these standby and 21 off mode energy consumption. 22 We first note that the existingea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 134 1 test procedures provide several energy 2 consumption metrics. For clothes dryers these 3 are defined on a per cycle basis and very 4 straightforward for electric dryers. It's 5 simply the total per cycle consumption of 6 electricity. 7 For gas dryers different 8 measurements are made for the electrical 9 energy consumption, for the controls and the 10 motor, and the gas consumption for both the 11 drying function and for any standing pilot.

12 And then these are all rolled 13 together into a total energy consumption for 14 gas dryers that is expressed both in BTUs and 15 kilowatt hours. 16 Regardless of whether it's a gas 17 or electric dryer, that's converted to an 18 energy factor parameter which is, again on a 19 per cycle basis. It's the weight of the test 20 cloth load divided by the total energy 21 consumption expressed in actually I believe 22 that's watt-hours, kilowatt hours -- I'm sorryea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 135 1 -- per cycle. 2 For room air conditioners, the 3 metrics are defined conversely on an annual 4 basis. So there are two of them in annual 5 energy consumption in kilowatt hours and in 6 EER. EER I'll talk about in a moment. It's 7 basically the cooling capacity times the 8 number of hours. It's in cooling mode divided 9 by the energy consumption. 10 EISA 2007 is very specific on how 11 we are supposed to handle integrating standby 12 and off mode measurements, and it basically 13 says that DOE shall roll together the energy 14 consumption, standby and off mode, into the 15 existing energy metrics unless either the test 16 procedure already fully accounts for these 17 standby and off modes or it's technically 18 infeasible to put them together. 19 And then further, if it is 20 technically infeasible to roll them together, 21 that DOE is required to prescribe a separate 22 prescriptive standby and off mode limit unlessea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 136 1 that, too, is technically infeasible. 2 The issue of this technical 3 feasibility of incorporating active and 4 standby mode energy use into the single metric 5 was explored by DOE, and it was considered 6 that there are test procedures that do 7 incorporate a per cycle efficiency measurement 8 with standby energy use where standby is 9 measured over a long period of time, and it 10 was determined that putting these two metrics 11 that are defined on different bases does have 12 meaning if the difference between the primary 13 or active mode energy use is so large that 14 putting in this small percentage of energy 15 that's measured over longer periods of time 16 does not substantially impact that overall per 17 cycle measurement as would be the case for 18 clothes dryers. 19 And actually for room air 20 conditioners you're comparing them on the same 21 basis in terms of annual energy consumption 22 for each mode. So that by definition would beea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 137 1 a technically feasible action to perform. 2 So it was determine and DOE is 3 proposing that for both products, standby and 4 off mode energy consumption, be incorporated 5 into the existing metrics for the energy 6 conservation standards. 7 Therefore, DOE is proposing to add 8 to the test procedure several integrated 9 measures of standby and active mode energy 10 consumption, and these would be in addition to 11 the existing metrics that are already defined. 12 First, for clothes dryers, the 13 proposed metric for total energy consumption 14 per cycle would be this integrated per cycle 15 measurement. Again, for electric clothes 16 dryers, it's very straightforward. It just 17 adds in together the electricity that's used 18 for the active mode per cycle with what's used 19 in standby. 20 For gas dryers, the integrated 21 metric rolls together the electricity 22 consumption in standby and off modes with theea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 138 1 equivalent total combined gas and electric 2 energy consumption in active mode that's 3 expressed in kilowatt hours. 4 This is then used to define an 5 integrated energy factor, very similar to the 6 original energy factor, which is the test load 7 weight divided by this integrated energy 8 consumption. 9 An analogous situation exists for 10 the proposal for room air conditioners where 11 ODE is adding, proposing to add in an 12 integrated annual energy consumption metric, 13 which is very straightforward, active plus 14 standby, in defining an integrated EER with 15 the same definition of the cooling capacity in 16 BTU per hour times the 750 assumed cooling 17 mode hours divided by this integrated annual 18 energy consumption expressed in watt hours. 19 At this point I would like to 20 invite comment on these integrated metrics.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra. 22 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 139 1 AHAM would support DOE's proposal 2 to combine these metrics and incorporate the 3 standby and off mode energy into the overall 4 energy use product. Looking at the proposals 5 for the integrated energies or integrated 6 factors, we tentatively support these. We 7 need to look at them in a little bit more 8 detail. 9 I do have one question though. 10 Judy, you had mentioned that these are in 11 addition to the existing metrics already 12 defined. So is DOE proposing actually going 13 forward with a per cycle total energy 14 consumption and a per cycle integrated total 15 energy consumption for clothes dryers as well 16 as an EF and integrated EF? 17 MS. REICH: Well, I think it is 18 important to realize this is just for the test 19 procedure as opposed to for the standards and 20 the intent is that when the test procedure 21 becomes effective in the standards, there will 22 be or it will not be required to be used toea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 140 1 measure the integrated metrics until the new 2 standard comes into place, and at that point 3 there will be the clarifying language that 4 says it, that you don't need to measure those 5 integrated parameters. That clarification

6 would be removed so that the standard then 7 would be based on the integrated measurements. 8 But the intent was to leave the 9 existing metrics in place and available for 10 use up until the time that the new standard 11 becomes effective. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey. 13 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs.

14 Please let these comments be taken 15 as a placeholder, but I guess I'm very 16 concerned that the public policy objective in 17 EISA as I have followed it and understood it 18 was to encourage limitations of the amount of 19 energy wasted when the machine is not doing 20 its job, whatever class of machine that is. 21 And from that perspective, 22 recognizing that we have several differentea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 141 1 categories of not doing the job, the 2 difference between at lease and parade rest, 3 if you want to use a military analogy, it 4 would seem to me that it would be far more 5 straightforward given that we have to measure 6 these things anyhow to simply have a 7 limitation on the wattage at each of these 8 non-operating cycle conditions, and this would 9 offer the direct encouragement to the 10 manufacturers to incorporate things like the 11 good power supplies that lead us to less 12 wasted energy when the machine is not doing 13 its job. 14 And thus, I would -- again not 15 offering this as an official position now, I'm 16 not sure why we're doing all of this running 17 around the room and mixing in source use of 18 gas with site use of electricity and all of 19 this other stuff to present these integrated 20 measures that don't help us get to 21 minimization of the relatively small 22 contribution of the non-duty cycle energy use.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 142 1 MS. REICH: Right. I don't 2 disagree with perhaps the intent or outcome, 3 but there is a statutory requirement in EISA 4 that says if it is technically feasible to 5 integrate it, DOE shall do that, and the 6 determination hinges on whether that 7 determination can be made of technical 8 feasibility. 9 And in this case we believe that 10 technically it is feasible. So you know, EISA 11 is very clear in what we have to do.

12 MR. SACHS: Then I would make the 13 argument -- this is Harvey again -- that it is 14 not technically feasible unless you express 15 all of this stuff in source energy because we 16 have so many disagreements about the 17 appropriate conversions of source to site and 18 because it varies so much among regions and at 19 different times of day. 20 So I would make the argument that 21 if that's the case that it may not be 22 technically feasible to do what you'reea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 143 1 claiming to have done. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I'd just 4 like to make the observation, understanding 5 the legal requirements and limitations, that 6 I don't think this is taking us where we would 7 reasonably like to go. Many of these 8 appliances have a large amount of use 9 associated with their active mode and a small 10 amount of energy use with their standby mode. 11 Yes, those measurements can be 12 combined, and it sounds like we're obliged to 13 think about it that way. However, the cost of 14 reducing the standby mode energy use, which is 15 small but could be made very inexpensively 16 smaller, is low. So you know, that's the 17 simple outcome PG&E would like to see. 18 And you know, that would come from 19 some prescriptive limitation on standby energy 20 use or some voluntary agreement, you know, to 21 subscribe to a limitation on standby energy

22 use.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 144 1 And this whole process just by 2 virtue of the way it's dictated and laid out 3 doesn't seem to get us to that possible

4 outcome. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis. 6 MR. LEWIS: Again, returning to 7 the foundational premise of why we're here 8 together today, it's not on the standard. 9 It's on the test procedure. We can't set a 10 limit that's a standard limit on a test 11 procedure. So the issue here, we're following 12 the directive within the statute of what we 13 need to do in the time prescribed, that we 14 have to have everything, all appliances we 15 have to evaluate and be ready for anything 16 that comes out in June 2010, is it, that has 17 to include the off mode and the standby mode? 18 And I think Harvey's 19 characterization is correct of what the intent 20 probably was, although I'm not speaking on

21 behalf of General Counsel.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for thatea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 145 1 clarification. 2 MR. LEWIS: The issue here though 3 is --

4 MR. SACHS: General Counsel has 5 shown not to speak for themselves. 6 MR. LEWIS: No, they are doing 7 good work right now, and I am very supportive 8 of what they're doing right now. 9 What I just want to remind us of 10 is we have a requirement. We're trying to do 11 it in a fashion that is fulfilling that 12 requirement, but we're having this discussion 13 to try to maintain some sanity and do it in 14 the most effective way that we can do it and 15 considering all the facts. 16 So your input is great. I mean, 17 there are a lot of issues that I haven't 18 thought of that you're raising today, and this 19 is really wonderful, except, you know, our 20 limitations and what we can do. We can't say 21 standard within the test procedure. We have 22 to have this done by a certain time.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 146 1 There are all kinds of issues that 2 are kind of handcuffing us on what our 3 flexibilities are, but this input is wonderful 4 for us to consider and play those 5 flexibilities to the maximum to have a good

6 outcome. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey. 8 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Ron. I 9 very much appreciate that. This is again 10 Harvey. 11 But the corollary or inverse of 12 what you've just said would seem to be that we 13 can't set a standard if the test procedure 14 does not leave us the right set of metrics to 15 set a standard on. And in that context, if 16 the goal of the EISA -- and I would remind us 17 all unnecessarily, I hope, that the goal of 18 the efficiency standards is to save energy -- 19 then if we do not set a test procedure that 20 allows us to set a standard on the things that 21 matter, we have not done our job. We have 22 done something which is perhaps technicallyea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 147 1 feasible, although I'd challenge that, and 2 largely irrelevant. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So thanks for the 5 reminder, Ron, keeping us on track here, but 6 I agree with Harvey. You know, we need the 7 test procedure to support the ultimate

8 standard. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Ron. 10 MR. LEWIS: Doing an amendment to 11 only meet our requirement on this is very 12 awkward when it's separate from the standard, 13 and most of the time we're doing a test 14 procedure concurrently or in combination with 15 a new standard. So the metrics are correlated 16 and trying to make it so you can prove 17 compliance with a new standard. 18 And all of these suggestions and 19 recommendations and concerns are all going to 20 help us tremendously as we do both in the 21 future. It's a matter of what can we do right 22 now to comply with our requirement withoutea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 148 1 great harm in the meantime when we're trying 2 to meet our obligation here. 3 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey. 5 MR. SACHS: I want to bring us 6 down to some semblance of what the world is 7 about right now. I'm sitting here with 8 another gas appliance that has a standby that 9 approaches ten watts, which means it's on the 10 order of 100 kilowatt hours per year to do 11 nothing. It is using a substantial fraction 12 of the electrical energy to do nothing -- I'm 13 sorry. To keep the battery charged on the 14 transformer or the thermostat -- it's using a 15 substantial fraction of the entire electrical 16 energy for the fan plus that, just to keep the 17 thermostat alive and the control board awake. 18 This is nuts, and if we can't have 19 our standards addressing this kind of energy 20 waste that amounts to power plant outputs per 21 year when summed over the nation, then we as 22 a group are not doing anything.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 149 1 That's where the opportunity is, 2 and I believe it's the obligation of DOE as 3 the standards maker to first pay attention to 4 the obligation that begins the act, which is 5 that these standards are about saving energy. 6 And I'm challenging you to help us find the 7 route that enables us to do it instead of 8 thinking continuously about the literal 9 language which always has exceptions as 10 otherwise determined or as other factors are 11 considered by the Secretary to be important. 12 So if I'm impatient, I'm sorry. 13 The job now is to save energy, and to do that 14 in ways which minimize the testing burden. 15 Give us understandable metrics. All of these 16 things are important, and it sure is a whole 17 lot easier to put a watt hour meter across a 18 dryer while it's asleep than it is to do all 19 of this pseudo annual cycle stuff that we're 20 proposing to do. 21 I will take my heart off my sleeve 22 and put it back in its place.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 150 1 (Laughter.) 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 3 Yes, please. 4 MS. REICH: I'd like to comment. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Judith, yes. 6 MS. REICH: This is Judith Reich. 7 You know, certainly recognizing 8 the full extent of this discussion, I can 9 perhaps allay the specific concerns with this 10 test procedure in which, although we are 11 proposing these new integrated metrics, over 12 the course of the test methodology to come up 13 with those metrics, we are also measuring 14 exactly what it is that I think you're 15 discussing, which is the specific watts that 16 are associated with each standby mode. 17 So in this particular case, the 18 test procedure as it is proposed could 19 anticipate either possibility in the standards 20 rulemaking. 21 MR. SACHS: Thank you very much, 22 Judith.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 151 1 Now, again, this is Harvey. We're 2 each the creatures of our own experience, but 3 we went through a situation with central air 4 conditioners in which the old ARI was able to 5 argue that although it had to calculate the 6 energy use and the capacity at 95 degrees 7 Fahrenheit, it did not literally have to 8 compute the EER at 95, and so my question to 9 you is once we have this procedure in place, 10 which I admit I have not read, will the 11 department require the reporting of these 12 energy consumption metrics in the non-active 13 cycle? 14 MS. REICH: Well, again, that's an 15 issue that will be determined in the standards 16 rulemaking, not in the test procedure 17 rulemaking. This is simply to set down the 18 methodology that will be used. 19 MR. SACHS: I understand that, but 20 I am again concerned that it can be set up in 21 a way that includes the objective or 22 facilitates the objective, and perhaps thisea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 152 1 question is better addressed to Ron than to 2 you, but I'm increasingly concerned that at 3 the end of this standards process, I'm going 4 to have something awake that is not 5 encouraging the industry to do what is cost 6 effective to reduce the annual energy use of 7 these products.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments

9 before we move on? 10 MR. SACHS: I was hoping to hear a 11 response from Ron on that. Maybe I wasn't 12 hoping to. 13 MR. LEWIS: I heard a speech. I 14 didn't hear a question, and I didn't mean that 15 in a -- I really didn't hear a question. 16 MR. SACHS: The question was 17 whether this rulemaking on the test procedure 18 is going to leave us in position where you 19 anticipate that we will require disclosure of 20 these non-active use energy consumption 21 metrics. 22 MR. LEWIS: This is Ron.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 153 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis. 2 MR. LEWIS: Our requirement right 3 now to now consider, which we have done in the 4 past, the standby and off modes in the test 5 procedure, and this is an amendment to the 6 existing test procedure, trying to give us the 7 capability when we set the new standards to be 8 able to support that standard and have that 9 option open. I think that the answer that you 10 just heard a minute ago was we would have that 11 option. 12 I can't prejudge. That is 13 completely inappropriate and not even legal to 14 prejudge what we're going to do in a future

15 standard before we've even started that 16 standard, but I think that the optimism there 17 is trying to make sure we've got the 18 capability to support it, exactly as I think 19 you just asked, to have that capability to 20 support that, and that should be our mission 21 trying to save energy. 22 So I think we're going in theea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 154 1 right direction. I don't think we're in 2 disagreement here. It's just a matter of the 3 timing where this is an amendment to a test 4 procedure to comply with a statutory 5 requirement versus the standard which is yet 6 to come that this would be supporting to show 7 compliance. 8 So I think there's a time 9 synchronization issue here, but I think that 10 the actual substance of the issue, I don't 11 think we're in any disagreement. It's a 12 matter of where it fits in . 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: That's great. 15 (Laughter.)

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that for the 17 record? Yes, okay. 18 MR. SACHS: Gary expressed it

19 better than I could. 20 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. 21 MS. REICH: All right. Well, I 22 think the next two topics will be much moreea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 155 1 straightforward. Both of these are 2 corrections to existing test procedures for 3 issues that were identified in the course of 4 reviewing each one of them. 5 For the clothes dryer DOE test 6 procedure there's a reference made in the 7 section in which the energy factor is 8 calculated, and it points improperly to 9 instructions that define the perimeters for 10 the test cloth instead of as it should be 11 pointing to the sections that instruct the 12 manufacturer on the appropriate selection of

13 test loads. 14 So DOE is proposing to correct 15 those section numbers to point to the right 16 place. 17 The second correction that is 18 proposed to be incorporated is the reference 19 to the external standard, the ASHRAE standard, 20 method of testing for rating room air 21 conditioner, and in the test procedure 22 currently as it stands, I'm sure notea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 156 1 intentionally, but rather amusingly, it's 2 called the American Society of Heating, 3 Refrigerating and Air Conditioning in 4 Engineers. 5 (Laughter.) 6 MS. REICH: The correction is to 7 properly identify ASHRAE as the American 8 Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air 9 Conditioning Engineers. 10 PARTICIPANT: Objection. 11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: We need to have 13 that capability in our engineers. 14 MS. REICH: All right. The final 15 topic that I'm going to cover is to discuss 16 the various EPCA requirements that DOE 17 reviewed in specifying these proposed 18 amendments. The first is to consider the test 19 burden on the manufacturer, and specifically 20 the relevant sections of EPCA state that the 21 test procedures prescribed or amended have to 22 measure efficiency or energy use or estimatedea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 157 1 annual operating cost during a representative 2 average use cycle or period of use, and shall 3 not be unduly burdensome. 4 So you know, there are two 5 different requirements. There is the 6 methodology representative, and what is the 7 associated test burden. 8 Because DOE is proposing to 9 incorporate clauses from a widely accepted 10 international standard, the IEC 62301, it is 11 felt that because of the wide understanding, 12 recognition, use of that standard that 13 incorporating sections from that would be 14 appropriate. 15 In addition, DOE performed some 16 tests and analysis to determine that the 17 specific clauses and specificity that was 18 added to those clauses would produce 19 representative measurements, namely, the 20 situation where you have either a stable or 21 unstable condition or the fact that you're 22 trying to calculate over an average use cycle.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 158 1 Because the test methods and 2 equipment aren't substantially different from 3 what's already in the DOE test procedure, and 4 this I think we're really referring to the 5 ambient room conditions, that they are similar 6 to if not already in the existing temperature 7 requirements that are required for the 8 efficiency testing; that that would not pose 9 an undue burden, for example, by requiring 10 significant investments in facility or 11 equipment. 12 So that was the first EPCA 13 requirement. The second one, which we've 14 already discussed briefly, was that DOE has to 15 consider in addition to IEC 62301 this 16 alternative or second standard, 62087, for 17 audio and video equipment, and you know, quite 18 apparently clothes dryers and room air 19 conditioners don't fall under that purview. 20 So DOE determined that this did 21 not need to be considered for amending the 22 test procedures.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 159 1 And here's where we got into the 2 discussion of the requirement to integrate 3 standby and off mode energy consumption. 4 Again, you know, it's the EISA requirement 5 that it must be done unless it's technically 6 infeasible, and so DOE is proposing these 7 additional methods for clothes dryers and room 8 air conditioners that are integrated metrics, 9 while not affecting the existing metrics that 10 are already defined. 11 I guess the only point maybe to 12 emphasize on this slide is the last bullet 13 point where because the existing metrics are 14 left in place, that the test procedure could 15 continue to be used in its existing form for 16 those metrics for determining compliance with 17 the standards that are currently in place and 18 until the effective date of any new or amended 19 standards for clothes dryers and room air 20 conditioners, at which point DOE would provide 21 for the amendments of integrated measures to 22 become effective.ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 160 1 That brings us back to Steve 2 unless there are additional comments on that. 3 MS. DETRICK: Paige Detrick, DSH. 4 Just kind of a nitty little thing 5 on the tables versus the calculation of the 6 energy efficiency. We spent a lot of time at 7 the tables talking about the operating hours 8 per year, and then we come back to a metric 9 that goes to operating hours or standby hours 10 per cycle. I'd like before we would finalize 11 those methods that we make sure we kind of 12 agree to how that all calculates out. 13 It should be straightforward 14 arithmetic, but I'd like to see how that all

15 calculates out and make sure that we have 16 something that makes some sense from that 17 rather than a table and an assumption that we 18 go back to ours and we all do the mathematics 19 differently and we come up with something that

20 doesn't match. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you think it 22 hasn't been explained fully int his document,ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 161 1 in these slides? 2 MS. DETRICK: I can imagine and do 3 the arithmetic and I come up with a certain 4 number of standby and off cycle hours per 5 operating cycle based on all of the tables 6 that talk about hours, but there is no 7 calculation of that. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: There's no explicit 9 A times B times C. 10 MS. DETRICK: Right. I have to go 11 to per year and then go to what I know, this 12 other standard that talks about cycles per 13 year and do some arithmetic back and forth to 14 get to standby hours per cycle. It would be, 15 I think, clearer if we just set it that we 16 expect X number of standby hours per cycle or 17 we expect X amount of power per whatever. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: To be explicit that 19 way, yes. 20 Ron Lewis. 21 MR. LEWIS: Is that in the 22 document at all, the Federal Register notice?ea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 162 1 Is there anything that's there other than 2 presentation? 3 MS. REICH: Well, I believe that 4 it's my understanding that those calculations 5 are actually performed in a different section 6 of 10 CFR 430, that those are performed as 7 part of the standards rather than in the test 8 procedure itself. 9 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Detlef, can you get 11 to the microphone, please?

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Sure. Detlef 13 Westphalen. 14 Just in clarification, I think 15 you're correct that nowhere in the document 16 are the numbers specifically spelled out in 17 hours per cycle. They're presented in hours 18 per year and calculated in hours per year, and 19 then, you know, the energy is then divided by 20 the number of cycles per year in order to get 21 energy per cycle, just to clarify. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thankea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 163 1 you.

2 MR. LEWIS: So does that answer 3 your need or do you think there's something 4 that we need to supplement for clarity? 5 MS. DETRICK: Paige Detrick again. 6 I think it can work either way. 7 I'd like clarity so that there's no 8 disagreement on the calculations, but it 9 should be straightforward math so that it can 10 work either way. 11 MR. LEWIS: But perhaps we can 12 have a one-page or something, just explanation 13 out of augmentation to be put on our Website

14 that shows that? 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, this is 16 Detlef again. 17 I would just add that we may have 18 to be careful about significant figures, and 19 you know, this was something that was brought 20 up at another meeting about metric versus 21 English and so on. When we get into 22 significant figures, then you know, how manyea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 164 1 do we show? And if we don't show enough, then 2 you might get a different number. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Brice. 4 MR. BOWLEY: Talking about 5 calculations as well, one calculation that

6 seemed to be left out from the new standard 7 was the new annual operating cost where that's 8 multiplied by the total kilowatt hours times 9 the energy use. 10 MS. REICH: Right. Again, that's 11 not part of the test procedure itself. 12 MR. BOWLEY: Well, the old annual 13 operating hours is included in the test 14 procedure. 15 MS. REICH: I believe that was in 16 a different section of 10 CFR 430. 17 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk,

18 AHAM.

19 It's at the end of the Federal 20 Register document on this NOPR. There's a 21 430.23 for room air conditioners, and that is 22 the area that does not incorporate thisea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 165 1 estimated annual cost. We're using new 2 calculations. They're for the olds, but it 3 doesn't incorporated what would be there for 4 the new. But that section is 430.23. 5 We will address that in our 6 written comments in specific detail.

7 MR. LEWIS: Good catch. Thank 8 you. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. WITKOWSKI: As far as how to 11 submit comments, it's all laid out here both 12 by E-mail and mail: by written comments, by 13 courier. If you have any questions, feel free 14 to either contact Brenda Edwards or contact 15 me, and I'll be happy to help you if there's 16 any issues on submission. 17 And that's it. On behalf of DOE, 18 that's it. I want to thank you very much and 19 I wish you all a very happy and safe holidays. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 21 Safe travels to all of you. I'm 22 going to hand out an evaluation form. Pleaseea524d94-f454-4628-8018-62264d1e5696 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### Page 166 1 take 30 seconds to fill it out. The 2 department reads them carefully. 3 (Whereupon, at 12:26 p.m., the 4 public meeting in the above-entitled matter 5 was concluded.)

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