M 67 NOM INATIONS OF MURAT W.i WIL LIAMS

i GEORGE W. BALL, ROGER W. JONES

AN D G. ME NN EN WILLIAMS

governm ent

Storage

H E A R IN G

BEFORE THE

« COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS 

UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGH TY -SE VE NT H CONGRESS

FIR ST SESSION

ON THE

NOMINATIONS OF MURAT W. WILLIAM S AS AMBASSADOR 

TO EL SALVADOR, GEORGE W. BALL AS UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ECONOMIC AFF AIR S, ROGER W. 

JONES AS DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR 

ADMINISTRATION, AND G. MENNEN WILLIAMS AS ASSISTA NT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AFRICAN AFFAIRS

JANUARY 24, 19G1

Pri nte d for the use of th e Committee on Foreign R elations

647X8

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 1961
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS

J. W. FU LB R IG H T, Arkansas. Chairman

JO HN SP A R K M A N , Alabama 

H U B E R T H. H U M PH R E Y, Minnesota 

M IK E M A N SFIE LD , Montana 

W A Y N E M ORS E, Oregon

R U SS E LL B. LO NG, Louisiana 

A L B E R T GORE , Tennessee 

F R A N K J. LA U SC H E, Ohio 

F R A N K CH U RCH , Idaho 

S T U A R T SYM IN G TO N , Missouri 

TH O M AS J. DODD, Connecticut

A L E X A N D E R W IL E Y , Wisconsin 

BO URKE B. H IC K E N LO O PE R , Iowa 

GE ORGE D. A IK E N , Vermont 

HOM ER E. C A P E II A R T , Indiana 

FR A N K CA RLS O N , Kansas 

JO HN J. W IL LI AM S, Delaware

C arl Marcy, Chief of St af f

D arrell St. Claire, Clerk
C O N T E N T S

Sta tem ent by— Pas*

Ball, George W_______________________________________________ 10

Ha rt, Hon. Philip A., U.S. Senator from the Sta te of Michigan_____ 75

Jones, lioger W ______________________________________________ 54

Williams, G. Me nnen_________________________________________ 75

Williams, Mu rat W___________________________________________ 2

Index___________________________________________________________ 99

in

REFERENCE

LIBRARY

DEPARTMENT Co

NO MIN AT IO NS OF MU RAT W. WILLIAM S, GE OR GE W. 

BAL L, RO GE R W. JO NES , AND G. M ENNEN WILLIAM S

T UESD A Y , JA N U A R Y 24 , 19 61

U n it ed Sta te s S e n a te,

C om m it te e on F o r eig n R el atio ns,

Washington, D,C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:1 0 a.m., in room 4221, 

New Senate Office Building, Senator J. W. Fulbright (chairman) 

presiding.

Present: Senators Fulbright (chairman), Sparkman, Mansfield, 

Long, Gore, Lausche, Church, Symington, Hickenlooper, Aiken, 

Carlson, and Williams.

OPENING STATEMENT BY THE CHAIRMAN

The C h a ir m a n. The committee will come to order.

The committee is meeting this morning to consider the following 

lour nominations: Murat W. Williams, Foreign Service Officer, to be 

U.S. Ambassador to El Salvador; George W. Ball, to be Under Secretary of State for Economic Affairs; Roger W. Jones, to be Deputy 

Under Secretary of State for Administration; and G. Mennen Williams 

to be Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs.

We will hear first from Mr. Murat Williams whose most recen t 

assignment has been tha t of Deputy Chief of Mission at Tel Aviv.

(Mr. Williams’ biographical sketch follows:)

B io g r a p h ic a l S k etc h o f M u r a t W . W il lia m s

Present position: Deput y Chief of Mission, Tel Aviv.

Considered for: Ambassador to El Salvador.

Born: Jun e 11, 1914, Richmond, Va.

Educa tion : B.A., University of Virginia, 1935; M.A., Oxford Univ ersity, 1939. 

Marita l sta tus: Married.

Experience:

N on-Government:

1935-36: Rich mond News repo rter.

1939-40: Madrid, private secreta ry to Ambassador.

1940: Assistan t to editor, Richmond News.

Gov ernmen t:

1946: Desk officer, Salvador, Departm ent of State.

1947: FSO-4; political officer, San Salvador.

1949: Political and economic officer, Bucha rest.

1951: To Departm ent; special assista nt to Deputy Und er Secretary. 

1953: National War College.

1954: Consul General, Salonika.

1955: Special Foreign Service inspector (Depa rtm ent).

1956: Deputy Dire ctor, executive secreta riat.

1956: Deputy Director, Office of GT I Affairs.

1958: FSO -1.

1959: De puty Chief of Mission, Tel Aviv.

Milita ry: 1946-45: U.S. Navy.

Office: American Emb assy, Tel Aviv, Israel.

Hom e: Care of American Embassy, Tel Aviv.

Legal residence: District of Columbia.

1
2 NOMINATIONS

Mr. Williams, do you have a prepared statem ent which you would 

like to make to the committee?

STATEMENT OF MURAT W. WILLIAMS, NOMINEE TO BE AMBASSADOR TO EL SALVADOR

Mr. Williams. Only a few remarks, Mr. Chairman.

I should like to say tha t I am, of course, greatly honored by this 

nomination. I am particularly pleased to be going to a country 

where I have already served for 2 years.

I was there in 1948 at the time of the revolution which brought into 

power a new group tha t included former president Osorio.

If this nomination is confirmed I shall look forward to going to 

exceedingly interesting places at an interesting time and to what I 

consider a most challenging assignment.

Tha nk you.

FO REI GN SE RVIC E AND ST AT E DEP ARTM EN T EX PER IE N C E

The Chairman. When did you join the Foreign Service?

Mr. Williams. In 1947, sir, after serving in the State D epartmen t. 

The Chairman. What had you done in the State Department? 

Mr. Williams. I had been a desk officer for El Salvador and

Guatemala.

The Chairman. Do you speak Spanish?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Does your wife speak Spanish?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; much better. We both have had several

years of service in Spain and in Central America.

The Chairman. What did you do in Spain?

Mr. Williams. I was first in Spain as private secretary to Ambassador Weddell, in 1939.

I was later in Spain as assistant naval attache for 2 years between 

two tours of d uty at sea, 1942 to 1944.

PR IO R E X PER IE N C E IN EL SALVADOR

The Chairman. When you were in El Salvador, who was in control 

of the country a t that time?

Mr. Williams. When I first went to El Salvador the President was 

Salvador Castaneda Castro.

He was overthrown December 12,1948, when I was charg6 d’affaires.

The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with tha t overthrow?

Mr. Williams. I simply witnessed it, sir.

The Chairman. Go ahead.

Mr. Williams. After that revolution a junta came into power of 

which the leading member, as I remember, was Colonel Osorio, who 

was subsequently elected President of El Salvador. He is now a 

prominent figure still in the country.

PR ESEN T GO VE RN MEN T IN EL SALVADOR

The Chairman. Has there not been a change very recently in the 

Government of El Salvador?
NOMINATIONS 3

Mr. Williams. Yes, there has recently been a change. I read 

about it in the Jerusalem Post, as a ma tter of fact. The change 

brought into power a new j unta this time of six members instead of 

of four, three military members and three civilian members.

The Chairman. Are you acquainted with the character of this 

junta?

Mr. Williams. I remember one of the men, Colonel Castillo. The 

others, I believe, were ra ther young when I was there 12 years ago, 

and I don’t know them personally, but I do know or did know quite 

well Colonel Osorio with whom some of them seem to be associated.

The Chairman. Is it your understanding they are going to have 

free elections?

Mr. Williams. I understand that within possibly 6 months, possibly 2 years. No date seems to have been fixed.

The Chairman. So their purpose is to establish a democratic 

regime there?

Mr. Williams. As I understand it, sir, very much their purpose.

CE NT RA L AM ER ICAN COM MON MA RK ET

The Chairman. Is this Government of El Salvador part of what 

we call the Central American Common Market area?

Mr. Williams. Salvador, as I understand it, has been one of the 

leading movers in the common market effort. Certainly the businessmen whom I know there have been enthusiastic about it, and have 

grea t hopes for it.

The Chairman. What is the policy of our Government with regard 

to a Central American Common Market?

Mr. Williams. I have not been back long enough to know positively the answer to tha t, but I understand tha t we intend to favor it. 

Two of our experts went, I believe, 2 years ago, to Salvador and to 

Central America to stud y the common market, and I believe their 

repo rt was encouraging for it.

The Chairman. Have you not been informed as to what our attitude is toward a common market?

Mr. Williams. I have only been back less tha n a week, within the 

Department less than a week, and I have been discussing first of all 

certain Near Eastern matters.

FO REI GN SE RVIC E AND ST AT E DEP ARTM EN T EX PER IE N C E

The Chairman. Have you just returned from Tel Aviv?

Mr. Williams. I left Tel Aviv 10 days ago, sir.

The Chairman. How many posts have you had since 1947?

Mr. Williams. Four posts abroad plus a tour as inspector, and 

two assignments in Washington.

The Chairman. Do you mean seven different assignments?

Mr. Williams. Six, sir.

The Chairman. Six in 13 years?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. An average of about 2 years for each. Do you 

consider this is a long enough time in each to enable you to reach a 

high degree of efficiency?

Mr. Williams. I believe tha t in most of these posts that was 

enough. I believe it was.
4 NOMINATIONS

Th e Chairma n. D o you mean th at ju st at the end of 2 yea rs 

you ha d become ac qu ainted with your job?

Mr. Will iam s. I th in k I ha d become acqu ain ted with it earlier 

th an th at , sir.

Th e Chairma n. H ow much earlier?

Mr. Will iam s. I sho uld say after 2 or 3 m onths , sir, or less.

C O N ST R U C TIO N OF ATO M IC REA CTO R IN IS R A E L

Th e Chairma n. When you we nt to Israel, were you pos ted at Tel 

Aviv?

Mr. William s. Yes, sir.

Th e Chairman. Di d you kno w ab ou t the constru cti on of the 

ato mic reac tor in Israel?

Mr. William s. We h eard ab ou t it, sir.

Th e Chair man. From whom did you he ar ab ou t it?

M r. William s. Th e fac t th at some thing was going on in the field of 

ato mi c ene rgy was gen era lly discusse d in Israel.

Th e Chairma n. When?

Mr. Will iam s. Ear ly in the fall, lat e sum mer, sir. I must s ay th at 

this is a subject th at is conside red to be ra th er s ensitive.

Th e Chairman. Inform ation on it has been pub lish ed.

M r. Will iam s. Part of it has rec ently.

Th e Chairman. Di d you find ou t ab ou t it y ourself, or did you find 

ou t ind irectly?

M r. Will iam s. Me mb ers of our staff heard it.

Th e Chairman. Di d the Isr aeli Go vernme nt inform you th at they 

were eng aging in th is ac tiv ity ? Di d they info rm ou r Go ver nm ent ?

M r. Will iam s. In ans wer to a question or que stions in Novem ber, 

I believe, we w ere told t hat there was some work of th is sort going on.

Th e Chairman. Had they ever tol d you different ly before that?

Mr. Will iam s. M r. Ch air ma n, I believe th at thi s tou ches upon 

certa in s ens itiv e m at te rs , upon certa in sensitive fields th at it m igh t be 

best to discuss in pr ivate session.

Th e Chairman. I rea d in th e new spa per no t long ago a full sto ry 

ab ou t the rea cto r. W ha t are you so sensitive about?

Mr. Will iams. W ha t is sen sitive is wh at might have been said in 

pr ivate conversations which are stil l conside red to be priva te conversa tions between officials------

Th e Chairma n. W he ther you rea d the newspaper accounts of thi s 

I do no t know, bu t was it no t qu ite clea r from tho se acc ounts th at 

Isr ael ha d concealed the existenc e of thi s reac tor from our Gover nme nt? Is th at no t correct? Th e point I am try ing to ma ke is th at 

you were there 2 years, and you say t hat in th at tim e y ou can be fully 

aware of all th at goes on, th at you were efficient in the discharge of your 

duties. But you did no t kno w wha t was going on in thi s respec t, 

did you ?

Mr. William s. We knew th at som eth ing was going on last sum mer. 

We ma de a repo rt of it.

Th e Chairma n. Som ething ?

M r. Will iam s. Th e n at ur e of ou r re po rt, I believe, is still classified.

Th e Chairman. Stil l classified. I did no t ask you to discuss th at . 

Th e newspaper repo rt which was how long ago------

Se na tor Aik en . T hat came ou t ab ou t------
NOMINATIONS 5

Mr. Williams. December.

Senator Aiken. The 15tli of December. It came o ut in a regular 

Monday morning leakage.

R A PID T U R N O V E R O F F O R E IG N SE R V IC E P E R S O N N E L

The Chairman. The point I was trying to make is that I believe 

tha t this rapid turnover of our personnel is not in the best interests 

of our Foreign Service. You say tha t a 2-year tour is plenty, tha t 

it is long enough. My experience here has shown tha t the better 

ambassadors in foreign countries usually stay 5, 6, 7 years, and they 

are the ones who have influence. I do not approve of this rapid 

turnover of 2 years. I do not think tha t one can become highly 

efficient in a foreign field after such a short period. I was only try ing 

to make the point th at somebody in Israel did not know what was going 

on until very late in the game at the time when everybody else knew 

about it.

Mr. Williams. Mr. Chairman, I referred to some classified reports 

which I don’t believe I am at liberty to discuss when I say that we 

reported this earlier.

The Chairman. Ordinarily we discuss things tha t appear in the 

newspapers.

Mr. Williams. Yes. Well, those classified reports were not. Mr. 

Chairman——

The Chairman. Senator Lausche, do you have any questions?

Senator Lausche. I would like to know if you can point out what 

advantages are gained and what losses sustained through these rapid 

changeovers. What are the advantages in having a person at one 

post for 2 years, and then sending him to anoth er post for 2 years, 

and so on, as distinguished from the disadvantages tha t come from 

this?

Mr. Williams. The advantages usually are advantages of broadening. I was sent after more than 2 years in Salvador to Eastern Europe 

to Rumania where I served for 2 years, 1949 to 1951.

My experience in Rumania, although it was only 2 years, has been 

a very valuable experience for me. I served there during the time of 

Ana Pauker, and had a rather good opp ortunity to see how a Communist state operates. Th at was an advantage.

The reason that my——

Senator L ausche. The advantage was tha t you were trained as 

speedily as the circumstances would justify, but what was the advantage to the Foreign Service rendered to our Government directly in 

those countries?

Mr. Williams. The advantage in Rumania, sir, of my being there 

2 years? I think tha t was more or less a normal tour of duty in Iron 

Curtain posts. I believe tha t after only a few weeks in tha t country 

I was able to use the language, which is very much like Spanish. I 

could certainly read it. And the fact tha t i was there only 2 years 

I do not believe was any handicap to me. I hope tha t I was able to 

do useful service during tha t time.

Senator L ausche. But if you served there longer, would not your 

contacts expand and your general information become broader, enabling you more fully to perform the functions tha t were assigned to
6 NOMINATIONS

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir, perhaps even more in other countries 

than in an Iron Curtain post. In an Iron Curtain post one has very 

little opportunity to expand one’s contacts. I think by the same 

token the assignment to which I am going if confirmed is an assignment where I will find that my previous experience of 2 years and 

more than 2 years in a country, and a year and a half on the desks 

serving the country would be helpful to me.

Senator Lausche. Mr. Williams, I am not challenging you as a 

person in this matter. I am discussing how we can most efficiently 

develop a Foreign Service tha t will be helpful to our Government, 

and the question is whether tha t is achieved through short intervals 

of assignment of 2 years each in separate nations, or whether it 

would be be tter achieved through a lengthier assignment.

Th at is all I have.

Mr. Williams. May I make-----

The Chairman. Mr. Williams, w hat I had in mind is exactly the 

point that Senator Lausche makes. I do not question the value 

to you in the broadening of your experience as an individual. That 

may be important in the long run. But it is a question of how you 

can serve the U.S. Government. You people go around and you 

have a nice time getting acquainted with a new country. But there 

you were in Israel for such a short time that such things as this very 

embarrassing development escape the notice of our own people, not 

that you were primarily responsible because you were not the Ambassador, but you were there in a relatively responsible position. 

What was your position in Israel?

Mr. Williams. I was counselor, deputy chief of mission.

The Chairman. Counselor. I daresay if you had been there 4 or 

5 years you might have known about this reactor, that people might 

have told you what was going on. I do not believe that a 2-year 

tour of duty is long enough to help the United States, although it 

may be very interesting to the individual. But I was under the 

impression the Foreign Service is to promote the interests of the 

United States and not to educate the members of the Foreign Service 

alone and that there should be some consideration given to what 

they can do for the Government.

The Senator from Iowa?

Senator Hickenlooper. I would like to pass at this time, Mr. 

Chairman.

The Chairman. The Senator from Idaho?

Senator Church. I will pass, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. The Senator from Vermont?

CON STRUCTION OF ATOMIC REACTOR IN ISR AEL

Senator Aiken. Mr. Chairman, I was interested in Mr. Williams’ 

report on the information in regard to the atomic plan t in Israel.

Did you know about that and report to the Ambassador?

Mr. Williams. I and other members of the Embassy including

the Ambassador reported during the summer about an atomic development. I regret to say that the report is a classified report and 

therefore I do not feel at liberty to discuss the contents. I believe 

some of my remarks might be misinterpreted.
NOMINATIONS 7

«■»

Senator Aiken. I felt that way, too, after I had been briefed on 

it but then a couple of weeks later on a Monday morning the front 

pages of the New York newspapers had the story with a reasonable 

degree of accuracy. If you found in El Salvador, for instance, that 

the government was constructing an atomic plant without advising 

you, you would feel t ha t you ought to report tha t, too, to the U.S. 

Government, would you not?

Mr. Williams. Of course; yes, sir.

Senator Aiken. And all the information you had on it?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Senator Aiken. And we would not have to depend on some other 

country to inform us, would we?

Mr. Williams. No, sir.

Senator Aiken. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

I have to leave to go to another hearing at this time, anyway.

The C hairman. We will miss you.

I am glad to hear that.

The Senator from Kansas.

I am not going to interrogate

Senator Aiken. 

The Chairman.

Senator Carlson. Mr. Williams, 

you any.

What is the population of El Salvador? 

better.

I probably should know

my geography

Mr. Williams. It is slightly over 2 million, almost 2 million. I

servedTU RNOVER OF FO REI GN SE RVIC E PE RSO NNEL

Senator Carlson. I rath er agree with you that your past service 

will be helpful in this new assignment, and while I appreciate the 

chairman’s state ment of long-term service for some of our Foreign 

Service people, I can well understand, having traveled some in the 

Far E ast and the Near East, tha t 2 years is a good tour of du ty for a 

Virginian and a citizen of this district, and I can well appreciate not 

only you but others getting back. I wish you very well.

Mr. Williams. Thank you very much.

The Chairman. How old are you, Mr. Williams?

Mr. Williams. 46, sir.

The Chairman. You must be one of the youngest Ambassadors or 

will be when you are confirmed, will you not?

Mr. Williams. I may be, sir, if confirmed. I am not certain.

The Chairman. I think you are one of the youngest who has come 

before the committee since I have been here. I hope you stay there 

longer than 2 years and straighten that situation out.

Any other questions?

AS SIGN MEN T IN IS RAEL

Senator Church. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two questions.

Mr. Williams, you have had prior experience in El Salvador, and 

you have worked on the El Salvador desk in the State Department. 

When you went to Israel, was tha t an assignment on your request; 

that is, had you expressed the desire to go into the Middle East?

Mr. Williams. Sir, I had expressed a desire on April 1 of 1950, 

1951, 1952, and I think 1953 to be assigned to Tel Aviv. We have 

every year, as you know, an opportunity to express our preference.
8 NOMINATIONS

Senator C hurch. Yes, I know that. Why did you want to go to 

Israel? Had you had previous experience in the Middle East? What 

were the reasons why you made this request?

Mr. Williams. I had had before I went to Tel Aviv in 1959 previous experience in Greece and in Persia and in dealing with Turkish 

affairs; because of the importance of Israel to the Middle East it 

seemed to me to be natural to have such an assignment, and naturally 

very interesting.

Beyond that, I had hoped to go to Israel one day because of its 

historical, cultural, and religious influence and the opportunity to 

learn the Hebrew language.

Senator C hurch. Have you learned the Hebrew language?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. I learned to carry on conversations for 

an hour or so in Hebrew and to read Hebrew newspapers, slowly but 

usefully, useful to me.

Senator C hurch. That is what you would call on-the-job training, 

is it not?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. It was primarily on the job.

Senator Church. Do you speak Spanish?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

STA TE D E PA R T M E N T R O T A T IO N PO LIC Y

Senator Church. What is the practice in the State Department 

with respect to regional rotation? I understand the way tha t ambassadors, counselors, and other members of the Foreign Service are 

transferred from country to country. But is there any atte mpt in 

the State Department to give Foreign Service personnel particular 

experience within a given region—let us say Latin America—and 

transfer them from country to country within tha t general region in 

order tha t they might become especially expert in tha t particular 

sector of the world?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. That is my observation of the Dep artment’s policy, and it is true in each of the regions, principal regions.

Senator Church. But in your case you had experience in South 

America and then you were transferred into the Middle East and had 

experience there.

Is this the more typical situation, where Foreign Service personnel 

are transferred about the world generally and they are not retained, 

for the most p art, within one broad region?

Mr. Williams. I would suspect tha t there is more regional specialization in general than I have had. I am not certain. I think tha t 

is true.

Senator C hurch. Have you had any other experience in Latin 

America, aside from your tenure in El Salvador?

Mr. Williams. Only tha t and in the Department, the Bureau of 

American Affairs, American Republic Affairs.

Senator C hurch. Thank you.

The Chairman. Any further questions?
NOMINATIONS 9

A M BA SSA D O RIA L Q U A L IF IC A T IO N S

Senator Hickenlooper. Mr. Chairman, I passed up my opportunity a moment ago because 1 had just come in.

Mr. Williams, what is your feeling about the desirability of a person 

who becomes ambassador to a country having had extended experience 

in tha t country or in the general area where there is a similarity of 

problems prior to being assigned as ambassador?

Mr. Williams. I think that is a great help. That is why I am 

glad I have had previous experience myself.

Senator Hickenlooper. Do you think 2 years’ experience as a 

grade 4 Foreign Service officer in El Salvador meets tha t qualification 

of broadened experience in tha t area? I am speaking of the job of 

ambassador.

I am not speaking of the job of attache or any lesser office than 

ambassador.

Mr. Williams, f think so, sir. I would add to it the experience 

which I did have in the Bureau of American Republic Affairs in the 

State Department dealing with Central America. 1 also think tha t 

the experience which we have as Foreign Service officers in other 

embassies and other regions is of benefit to us.

Senator Hickenlooper. I certainly do not dispute the fact tha t 

experience in other embassies gives one embassy experience and gives 

one experience in the stylized performance of ambassadorial foreign 

mission service so far as meeting the punctilious requirements of social 

amenities and things of th at kind.

But f seriously question—and I say this with all due respect— 

I seriously question whether your experience of 2 years, 13 years ago, 

in a country whose political and economic situation has gone through 

a rather startling shift and change* in the last several years is fully 

sufficient.

Tha t does not mean I am going to vote against you for Ambassador, 

but, frankly, I do not think you have had enough experience in tha t 

particular area to justify your selection as Ambassador there.

Mr. Williams. Could we add-----

Senator Hickenlooper. I again want to qualify tha t. I have no 

question about your capacity as an individual, about your devotion 

to the Foreign Service. I realize t ha t many ambassadors have been 

appointed with even far less experience than you have had. I am 

only raising that suggestion.

I was in El Salvador in November. It is, indeed, a complicated 

political and economic situation at the moment. It is one where I 

frankly believe a fairly seasoned, steady hand is needed at this 

moment.

But that does not mean tha t you are not seasoned in your general 

qualifications, and it does not mean that you are not a steady 

individual.

This is not personal to you at all.

Mr. Williams. Senator, you referred to the fact tha t I was an 

FSO-4 at that time. Tha t, of course, is true. I wi

d’Affaires for more than 6 months during that tour of c 

the period of the revolution. /

Senator Hickenlooper. Of course, tha t all adds 

tions.
10 NOMINATIONS

As I say, I have no intention of opposing your nomination.

Mr. Williams. Thank you, sir.

Senator Hickenlooper. And I am not, of course, suggesting anything derogatory to your basic qualifications, nor your zeal, nor your 

devotion to duty.

But I sometimes feel that assignments are made very frequently 

without the incumbent having sufficient long-range background in 

the general area of politics relating to area conditions, acquaintances, 

and things of that kind. But I wish you well in your job down there, 

with the very complicated, difficult and uncertain conditions as exist 

in Salvador today.

Mr. Williams. Thank you very much, Senator.

The Chairman. The Senator from Missouri?

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I have known Mr. Williams 

for some years and all of my experience with him has been very 

favorable.

I confidently expect tha t he will do an outstanding job in his new 

assignment, as he has in his other assignments, and I look forward 

very much to voting for his confirmation.

Thank you.

Mr. Williams. Thank you very much, Senator.

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Williams.

Mr. Williams. Thank you, sir.

The Chairman. I wish to insert in the record at this point a letter 

from Secretary of State Rusk concerning Mr. Williams’ nomination.

T he Secretary of State, 

Washington, January 23, 1961.

Hon. J. W. F ulbright,

Chairman, Committee on Foreign Relations,

U.S. Senate.

Dear Senator F ulbright: Preside nt Dwight D. Eisenhower nominate d 

Mu rat W. Williams, of th e D istrict of Columbia, a Foreign Service officer of class 1, 

to be Ambassador Extrao rdin ary and Plenipotentia ry of the United States of 

America to El Salvador, vice Thorsten V. Kalijarvi.

I am happy to advise you th at I concur in this nomination.

Sincerely yours,

Dean Rusk.

The Chairman. The next witness is Mr. George W. Ball, of Washington, D.C., who has been nominated by President Kennedy to 

serve as Under Secretary of Sta te for Economic Affairs.

Mr. Ball has had a great deal of experience in international law 

matters.

Mr. Ball, we are glad to have you.

Do you have a statem ent to make to the committee?

STATEMENT OF GEORGE W. BALL, NOMINEE TO BE UNDER 

SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

Mr. Ball. I would like to amplify, if I may, Mr. Chairman, a few 

of the autobiographical details which I think have been furnished to 

the committee in order tha t you may have a better opportunity to 

appraise my qualities and qualifications.
NOMINATIONS 11

“Mr. Ball’s biographical sketch follows:”

Biographical Sketch of George W. Ball

Former position: Member law firm Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Ball, Washington, 

D.C.

Proposed position: Under Secretary of State for Economic Affairs.

Born: Des Moines, Iowa, December 21, 1909.

Education: B.A., Northwestern University, 1930; J.D . 1933.

Experience:

Non-Government:

1934: Adm itted to Illinois bar.

1935-42: Practiced law Chicago.

1946: Adm itted to District of Columbia bar.

1946 to present: Member, firm Cleary, Gottlieb, Friendly, and Ball. 

Government:

1933-35: With General Counsel’s Office, Treasury Department, 

Washington.

1942-44: With Foreign Economic Adm inistration; Associate General 

Counsel Lend Lease Administration.

1944—45: Director U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, London.

Office: Depar tment of State, Washington, D.C.

Home: 3100 35th Street NW., Washington, D.C.

Legal residence: District of Columbia.

FA M IL Y AND E D U C A T IO N A L BA C K G RO U N D

Mr. B all. I was born in Des Moines, Towa, on December 21, 1909. 

My grandfather had emigrated from Devonshire, England, when my 

father was 5 years old.

My mother was a native of Iowa where her family had moved from 

Ohio after the Civil War. Before her marriage, my mother was a 

country schoolteacher. I spent the first 11 years of my life in Des 

Moines where I atten ded the local public schools.

In 1922 my family moved to Evanston, Ill., and I was graduated 

from the E vanston Township High School in 1926.

Upon graduation I entered Northwestern University from which I 

took an undergraduate degree in 1930, a nd a law degree in 1933.

G O V E R N M EN T E X P E R IE N C E

Immediately upon graduation I was one of several young law school 

graduates recruited by Prof. Herman Oliphant who had just become 

General Counsel of the Farm Credit Administration of which the 

Administrator was Henry Morgenthau, Jr. I served with Mr. Oliphant 

for a little less than a year until Mr. Morgenthau became the Acting 

Secretary of the Treasury and took Mr. Oliphant as his general counsel. 

I transferred to the Treasury with Mr. Oliphant.

Those, you will recall, were the early days of the New Deal, and 

I am afraid that my responsibilities as a very young lawyer were 

substantially ahead of my experience.

It was a very heady business, I may say, for a young man of 23.

E X P E R IE N C E PR A C TIC IN G LA W

In any event, with a perception t hat, in retrospect, seems surprising 

to me, I decided I had better get some experience in the private 

practice of law, so I returned to Chicago in 1935.
12 NOMINATIONS

I practiced successively with two different law firms in Chicago, 

working primarily in the areas of Federal taxation, corporate reorganization, and the reorganization of several major railroads.

GO VE RN MEN T EXPE RIE N CE

Early in 1942 I returned to Washington with the staff of the General 

Counsel of the Office of Lend-Lease Administration, and, thereafter, 

I became Associate General Counsel.

During this time I served as a legal adviser to Mr. Edward R. 

Stettinius, Jr., the Administrator. When the Office of Lend-Lease 

Administration was late r combined with the Office of Economic Warfare to form the Foreign Economic Administration, I became Associate 

General Counsel of t hat agency.

I remained in tha t capacity until 1944 when I was invited by 

General Arnold to become the civilian member of an Air Force Evaluation Board studying the effects of tactical operations in Europe.

Late r the same year, I also became the Director of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, which was established by the President to 

assess the economic, social, and physical effects of the strategic air 

offensive against Germany. In the course of the Survey’s activities, 

we made an extensive study of the German war economy based on 

data which we obtained from documents tha t we found in Germany, 

as well as from interviews with captured officials of the Third Reich.

EX PER IE N C E PR AC TICI NG LAW

In September 1945, I returned to Washington to become one of 

the founding partners of a law firm. Pending the setting up of the 

firm I served as general counsel of the French Supply Council, which 

was engaged in the contracting for the procurement of goods and 

supplies for the rebuilding of France.

I joined my law firm in July 1946. It conducts its practice under 

the name of Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Ball, and presently consists of 

18 partners and 45 or 46 associate lawyers.

LA W FI RM ’S IN TE RNATI ONAL PR AC TICE

During the last 14 years the nature of my law practice has required 

me to spend a considerable pa rt of my time abroad, mostly in Europe, 

but also in north Africa, Latin America, and the Middle East.

My firm maintains offices no t only in New York and Washington, 

but also in Paris and Brussels, and I have had general responsibility 

for those offices abroad, as well as for the firm’s office in Washington.

Most of my firm’s practice abroad has been in connection with the 

representation of American companies and individuals doing business 

overseas.

We have, however, represented some foreign countries in connection with their activities in the United States.

As is the case with many other law firms having international 

practice, we have from time to time included among our clients 

agencies of foreign governments in connection with financial or commercial m atters in the United States.

All of this is a m atte r of public record.
NOMINATIONS 13

As a ma tter of policy, my law firm has regularly submitted reports 

to the Departme nt of Justice whenever there has been any doubt as 

to whether a particular representation might be covered by the 

Foreign Agents Registration Act.

I am now withdrawing from my law firm as of the date of my 

confirmation. Thereafter, my name will no longer be included in 

the firm name and I shall have no financial interest in any fees earned 

by the firm for services which it may render after the date of my 

withdrawal.

A T T E N T IO N D E V O TE D TO F O R E IG N E CO N O M IC PO LIC Y PR O B L E M S

I have devoted much of my attention to problems of foreign economic policy for the last 20 years. I have in the course of tha t time 

atten ded 10 or more international conferences of the Bilderberg 

Group under the sponsorship of Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands, 

with which I know you, Mr. Chairman, are familiar, as well as other 

international conferences.

I have been taking a very active part in the studies and work of 

the Council of Foreign Relations. I welcome the opportunity now 

to be of service to the Government.

I am aware, I am sure, of the very large magnitude of the responsibilities I am assuming. I greatly look forward to establishing a 

close working relationship with this committee, if the Senate sees fit 

to confirm me.

C O N F L IC T -O F -I N T E R E S T Q U E ST IO N

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Ball.

Is it fair to draw the conclusion from your statement that you do 

not have any connections which might constitute a conflict of interest?

Mr. Ball. I see no connections that could constitute a conflict.

I may amplify for the committee the fact that I have disposed of 

all holdings of shares in companies which I had held.

I retain an ownership interest in a newspaper in northern Virginia 

known as the Northern Virginia Sun, but I have removed myself 

from any participation in the conduct of its affairs.

I am a trustee and the life beneficiary of a tru st created by my 

father and mother. I have advised my cotrustees that I will not 

participate in any of the investment decisions that they make in 

connection with that trust.

MR. ball’s R E S P O N S IB IL IT Y FO R F O R E IG N AI D PR OGRAM

The Chairman. Mr. Ball, you will in this position, if confirmed, 

have primary responsibility for our foreign aid program; tha t is, in 

drawing it up and in its presentation; is th at correct?

Mr. Ball. Th at is correct, sir.

The Chairman. Do you have anything to say to the committee 

now regarding your attitude toward these programs? Are you going 

to have any original ideas to apply to them, for example?

Mr. Ball. I hope I can bring to this work some original ideas 

based on the contemplation of the last 20 years.

I may say that I think tha t the thrust of these programs, so far as 

possible, should be to assist the underdeveloped countries of the 

647 1S— 61------2
14 NOMINATIONS

world to achieve the kind of independence which is necessary if they 

are to resist the pressures which are brought to bear on them.

I think that the thrust should be in the direction, so far as possible, 

of long-term development, rath er than of short-term emergency aid.

This requires a great deal of work, and one cannot be categorical 

about it in all cases.

I think, also, tha t to the extent possible, we should assist them to 

help themselves and tha t this should be one of the major guidelines 

in our effort.

M U L T IL A T E R A L AID

The Chairman'. Do you think the multilateral agencies can play 

a greater part in this program?

Mr. Ball. I think they can play a substantial part. Obviously, 

they already play a considerable role. The complex of the Intern ational Bank, the IDA, the IFC, the special agencies of the United 

Nations, all of these have a very useful role.

I am not one who thinks tha t all of our aid should be provided on 

a multilateral basis. I think this is a matter where the mechanism, 

the instrument by which aid is provided, must be adapted to the 

peculiar situations of a particular country or a particular area, or a 

particular political situation.

But I certainly feel that we should make an effort to develop the 

use of the technique of multilateral ass:stance wherever it appears to 

be in the best interests of the United States to do so.

F O R E IG N A ID PR O G R A M ’S R E L A T IO N S H IP TO B A L A N C E -O F-P A Y M E N T S 

PR O B LE M

The Chairman. Mr. Ball, you know it is your activities in connection with these aid programs tha t have a very great bearing upon our 

balance-of-payments problem. You are very well aware, I think— 

you should be, and I am sure you are—of th e balance-of-payments 

problem?

Mr. Ball. I am very aware of it, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. In fact, the deficit in our balance is approximately 

the amount of the aid program, is it not?

Mr. Ball. That is true.

The Chairman. In very round numbers. I am not being precise.

Mr. Ball. Y es.

The Chairman. But our actual trade, excluding foreign aid, is a 

favorable balance, is it not?

Mr. Ball. We have a favorable balance.

The Chairman. Offset by this aid program?

Mr. Ball. On merchandise account.

REM OV AL O F TR A D E B A R R IE R S

The Chairman. You are very familiar with the Western European 

countries in particular. Our Marshall plan built them up and they 

are very prosperous.

What do you propose to do about persuading these countries to 

eliminate the barriers that still exist to our own trading with them, 

our exports to them?
NOMINATIONS 15

Mr. Ball. I think, obviously, this is one of the measures on which 

great efforts should be put as a pa rt of the program to meet the problem presented by our persistent balance-of-payments deficit.

This is a matter for negotiation in the agencies which are already 

provided for t ha t purpose: The GATT, for example, the new OECD, 

which I hope will come into being, and which we shall be bringing to 

this committee for consideration within a very few weeks.

Many of the barriers to the movement of American goods, to the 

entry of American goods, which might have been justified after the 

war, when there was a situation of dollar shortage, are certainly no 

longer justified in a situation where th e United States itself is suffering persistent deficits in its balance of payments.

I can assure the committee that this would be one of the tasks to 

which I would intend to devote a great deal of attention.

I may say in this connection tha t, in order to obtain the breaking 

down of the barriers to the export of American goods into foreign 

countries, obviously, the United States must itself be prepared to 

make some concessions in the entry of foreign goods into the United 

States.

This was, of course, the basis upon which we embarked upon the 

reciprocal trade agreements program as long ago as 1934.

The Chairman. I agree with that . Bu t take Germany, for example 

By the use of these quota systems and other devices they put a very 

strict limit upon our imports, and yet we have accepted very large 

amounts of their automobiles, as you know, and th ey have a very large 

favorable balance with us.

Mr. Ball. Certainly, Mr. Chairman, I think that the use of quantitative restrictions by countries which are surplus countries can be 

justified only in the most extraordinary circumstances.

REST RIC TI ONS ON FO REI GN IM PO RT S OF FR OZ EN PO UL TR Y

The Chairman. I happen to come from an agricultural S tate and I 

am familiar with the problems of exporting such things as poultry.

This can be exported on an economic basis. It needs no subsidy; 

it has no subsidy from the Governm ent; and it does co ntribu te to the 

balance of payments. It is not sold for local currency. It will sell 

for gold; that is, for convertible currency, if it is not restricted by a 

quota, but it is excluded in countries like France and Italy. It is held 

down very severely in a place like Germany, where we have accepted 

and do accept almost unlimited imports, as much as the market will 

absorb, of such things as Volkswagens—and I think it is high time 

that something be done about it.

Mr. Ball. I do not know the particular circumstances of frozen 

poultry.

The Chairman. Well, I do know about this. This is a very impor tan t produc t in my S tate and of this country. It has become also 

a very importa nt product of Delaware, the State Senator Williams is 

from, and I do no t think we can tolerate indefinitely this kind of discriminatory practice when we accept their goods and they limit ours 

quantitativ ely.

They do it by a method of allocation of foreign currencies, as you 

know.
16 NOMINATIONS

The tariff itself is high enough, as you know—15 percent, I think— 

but, in addition to tha t, they have a quota on poultry.

This is one thing I hope you will look into, and with your acquaintance with, and experience in, Western Europe, you surely ought to 

do something a bout this.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Chairman, I am very aware of the special problem of 

agricultural products and the problem of the trade barriers which 

exist both quantitative and otherwise in WTestern Europe. This is a 

problem to which we certainly shall address a great deal of attention.

The Chairman. The Senator from Louisiana?

Senator Long. I will be glad to yield to the Senator from Iowa.

The Chairman. The Senator from Iowa?

FO REI GN GO VE RN MEN TS AN D AGEN CIE S R EPR ESE N TED BY MR. BA LL ’S 

LA W FIRM

Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Ball, you have had a great deal of experience in Europe in connection with your legal practice, I notice, and I also notice that you 

were in the General Counsel’s Office in the Treasury from 1933 to 

1935, with the Foreign Economic Administration from 1942 to 1944.

Since that time—that is, since 1945—I take it you have devoted 

your time, in the main, to the practice of law which has had a great 

deal to do with international operations?

Mr. Ball. Th at is correct, Senator.

Senator H ickenlooper. In a commercial way.

During your practice of law, what foreign governments have you 

represented?

Mr. Ball. I have acted as legal adviser, my firm, I should say, 

has been retained by the French financial counselor in Washington, 

the French commercial counselor. I have a statement, if you like, 

which is a summary of the foreign agents registration statements 

which the firm has filed that I would be glad to submit lor the record, 

showing tees received and so on during the last 5 years.

Senator Hickenlooper. I am not too concerned at the moment 

about the fees you have received. I assume they are ample.

Mr. Ball. Sometimes disappointing, Senator.

Senator H ickenlooper. I guess they have been at least satisfactory 

to one side or the other.

However, I wish you would inform me as to the foreign interests 

which you have represented.

Mr. Ball. Well, so far as governments are concerned, the agencies 

of the French Government in Washington are, I believe, the only ones 

tha t we have represented. Perhaps we have also represented some 

other French Government agencies in connection with their private 

financial work in the United States.

We have, however, represented some foreign quasi-go vernmental 

institutions, and I refer specifically to the three communities which 

have been set up by the Europeans as a p art of the movement toward 

integration in Europe: The European Coal and Steel Community, 

the European Economic Community, and the European Atomic 

Energy Community.

We have represented the High Authority of the European Coal and 

Steel Community and the Commissions of the other two communities.

Those are the executive bodies of those communities.
NOMINATIONS 17

Senator Hickenlooper. In connection with tha t representation, 

have you personally represented them in any way; tha t is, in connection with other members of your firm or individually?

Mr. Ball. Not individually. I have represented them as a member 

of my law firm.

Senator Hickenlooper. I refer to your individual services.

Mr. Ball. I have rendered individual services to them, yes, tha t is 

quite true.

Senator Hickenlooper. Tha t is the Coal and Steel Community, 

the Economic Community, and the Atomic Energy Community?

Mr. Ball. That is right, sir.

Senator Hickenlooper. What other European or foreign agencies 

or governments?

Mr. Ball. Those are the only governments or quasi-governmental 

agencies.

We have represented the chambers of commerce in certain areas. 

The French Patronat, for example, which is a kind of NAM of France.

We have acted as a legal adviser to them.

We have also represented the Sugar Mill Owners Association and 

the Cane Growers Association in Cuba m connection with sugar quota 

legislation.

Those are organizations which comprise both American and Cuban 

interests, but it is effectively the whole sugar industry which, as you 

know, until recently, contained very substantial American interests.

Senator Hickenlooper. Does tha t representation involve the 

representation of the Cuban Government in any wray?

Mr. Ball. Not in any way, sir.

Senator Hickenlooper. Even collaterally?

Mr. Ball. No, not in any way.

Senator Hickenlooper. Private clients?

Mr. Ball. Private clients. I may say in tha t connection tha t we 

terminated our registration as of July of 1959. We received no fees 

for any work done after the end of i958, so tha t during the time of 

the Castro regime wre have not had anything to do with it.

termination of connections with law firm

Senator Hickenlooper. I understood a moment ago you said tha t 

you either are terminating or have terminated your connection with 

your law firm.

Mr. Ball. I am terminating as of the date of my confirmation.

Senator Hickenlooper. That means you are withdrawing all 

connections of any kind with the firm?

Mr. Ball. Th at is right, and I will have no benefit of anv fees 

earned by my firm after the date of mv—for work done after the date 

of my confirmation.

Senator Hickenlooper. Yes.

Now, is there any agreement, actual or implied, tha t upon the 

termination of your Government service, you will have the opportunity to return, or will return, to tha t firm?

Mr. Ball. No, I have had an explicit agreement to the contrary; 

that is, t hat I take my own chances. This is in no sense a leave of 

absence.

I have no arrangement whatever to go back to my firm after my 

tour of duty with the Government, sir.
18 NOMINATIONS

Senator Hickenlooper. I think it might be fair to assume that, 

as a p artner whose name is in the firm at the present time, you would 

at least receive a cordial interview, if you walked back to your office 

after the termination of your term of Government service?

Mr. Ball. I may say, Senator, I am in the fortunate position where 

my partners are also my friends.

CO NN EC TION W IT H FA MILY TR US T FU ND

Senator H ickenlooper. Now, with regard to the trust of which 

you are the beneficiary, Mr. Ball, I may say that I am familiar with 

the Ball family of Iowa, a very fine family, a very old family.

You can be very proud of your background and your heritage.

In connection with that trust, are you a trustee?

Mr. Ball. That is right, sir, yes.

Senator Hickenlooper. Will you remain a trustee during your 

term of Government service?

Mr. Ball. There are three trustees, my two brothers and myself.

I have advised my brothers that I will n ot participate in any of 

the decisions of the trust during my tour of duty, nor will I be kept 

informed as to the investment decisions tha t are made or as to the 

nature of the portfolio from time to time.

The difficulty that would be entailed in my resigning as trustee is 

simply this:

Under the terms of the trust indenture, my trusteeship would 

devolve on my elder son who is a student at the American University 

in Beirut, doing Arabic studies, and it would be very awkward to 

have him as truste e because he simply would not be available to serve.

The arrangement which I have made with my brothers is that they 

will carry on acting for the tru st as a whole. They will not involve 

me in their investment decisions and I will not even be kept informed 

as to the nature of the portfolio from time to time.

Senator Hickenlooper. I do not care to inquire into meticulous 

details of your tru st nor anything of that kind, but at the present 

moment, are there investments in this trust which involve foreign 

operations or governments, or which may be materially affected by 

foreign investments involving the foreign economic situation?

Mr. Ball. The tru st portfolio involves some government bonds, 

securities, and a certain amount of real estate in the United States.

There is only one investment which I think might be involved at 

all with anything I do. This is an investment in a Liberian mining 

venture.

It is not substantial, but it is the only one, t ha t I know of, which 

could involve any problems at all.

Senator Hickenlooper. Do the trustees contemplate retaining 

that investment in Liberia?

Mr. Ball. I am sure tha t, if the committee felt it would be desirable, the trustees would be prepared to dispose of it.

I would leave it to the committee as to whether you think that is 

a desirable thing to do.

Senator Hickenlooper. Are you aware tha t we are somewhat 

involved as a Government in the success or failure of the Liberian 

Government, the Liberian economy?
NOMINATIONS 19

Mr. Ball. Yes, I am aware of t hat, sir.

Senator Hickenlooper. Do you agree th at as Liberian prosperity 

increases, any investments in Liberia would be enhanced in value?

Mr. Ball. Well, I would agree with this: Tha t the stability ot 

Liberia would be an important consideration.

Senator Hickenlooper. I can say, Mr. Ball, tha t I do not go to 

the extent that some do and feel in holy horror at this so-called conflict-of-interest matter.

I thin k there is a line to be drawn.

But I do think a person should consider very carefully the possibility of future criticism, the possibility of future conflict of interest.

I think we have just had a decision of the Supreme Court where, 

to me at least, a very clouded and difficult line of reasoning was used 

in connection with the decision on what might be called a very tenuous 

conflict-of-interest allegation. I think tha t is something tha t one 

should consider, these past attitu des.

But you will remain a trustee of this trust?

Mr. Ball. I will remain a trustee of this trust; yes, sir.

Senator Hickenlooper. Th at is so far as your capacity and 

auth ority are concerned?

Mr. Ball. Th at is correct, but I do not propose to exercise that 

authority.

Senator Hickenlooper. And if at any time under the present 

arrangem ents during your official duties or official position you elect 

to exercise auth ority in this trust, I take it you have the right to 

reexercise that autho rity?

Mr. Ball. Well, I certainly would n ot do so without advising this 

committee.

Senator Hickenlooper. I am not asking you about tha t. I am 

jus t asking whether that authority still remains?

Mr. Ball. The auth ority remains, yes.

Senator Hickenlooper. So to all inten ts and purposes, you are 

not terminating your connection with this trust except at your 

convenience or during the time that you believe i t is expedient and 

proper for you not to exercise the authorities which you will have 

all the time.

Mr. Ball. Yes. I am both the life beneficiary and the trustee. 

So far as my responsibilities as trustee are concerned, I would give 

an assurance to the committee that I will not participate in any 

investment decisions and will no t be kept informed of them. Now, 

if the committee feels that it is necessary, I would be glad to resign 

my trusteeship. I suggested that it would make an awkward arrangem ent in that my elder son is simply out of the country.

Senator Hickenlooper. Well, I take no position on tha t, Mr. 

Ball, at the moment, but I do n ot quite follow the reasoning. Your 

son might be out of the country b ut he could still be a trustee. Under 

your present arrangem ent, there would be no trustee acting; that is, 

in effect the two trustees would be operating without a third trustee 

exercising any judgm ent or any control or participation. But I 

am not demanding at the moment that you do anything about it. 

I am merely exploring the situation.
20 NOMINATIONS

FINAN CI AL IN TERESTS

Do you have any personal investments in foreign businesses?

Mr. Ball. None whatever.

Senator Hickenlooper. Foreign enterprises?

Mr. Ball. I have divested myself of all equity interests with the 

exception of the newspaper which I mentioned, and the only bonds 

which I hold are domestic bonds.

Senator Hickenlooper. That newspaper is in the United States?

Mr. Ball. It is across the river in Virginia, sir. I welcome the 

opportu nity ——

Senator Hickenlooper. Well, that is the same thing. You know 

in Iowa sometimes Scott County says it is outside the State of Iowa 

when it is referred to there.

EX PER IE N C E IN FO REI GN CO UNT RI ES

As Under Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, you will be 

exercising considerable influence upon our economic activities toward 

all countries of the world; is t ha t not correct?

Mr. Ball. That is correct, sir.

Senator H ickenlooper. What is the extent of your experience in 

other countries in addition to France?

Mr. Ball. I have traveled and done business, tha t is as a private 

lawyer, in almost all the countries of Western Europe. I have had 

some experience in north Africa as I mentioned to the committee, 

also in the Middle East, although not extensively. I have traveled 

fairly extensively in the Middle East, but I have had relatively small 

professional experience there.

Senator H ickenlooper. What is the nature of th at travel?

Mr. Ball. Tourism for the most part. I have had experience in 

Cuba, as I reported a few minutes ago, and also in Venezuela.

Senator Hickenlooper. And in what connection has the experience 

in Venezuela been?

Mr. Ball. My firm was at one time the counsel for the chamber 

of commerce in Venezuela in connection with some-----

Senator Hickenlooper. Anything to do with the oil business there?

Mr. Ball. Actually it had to do with the oil business in that we 

were concerned with the oil import restrictions which were then under 

consideration. This was a ma tter of some years ago, I have forgotten 

just when, and we haven’t represented them for some time. We have 

represented some private interests in Venezuela, one in particular, a 

gentleman of considerable means who has had private business activities with which we have helped him, not, I believe, connected with oil.

Senator Hickenlooper. Have you had anything to do with the 

steel activities in Venezuela?

Mr. Ball. None at all, sir.

Senator H ickenlooper. Have you had any experience of an official 

nature in any other countries except Cuba and Venezuela and the 

countries of Western Europe and the Middle East, I believe you said.

Mr. Ball. Yes. You said official nature. Do you mean of a 

professional or governmental nature, sir?

Senator H ickenlooper. A governmental nature.

Mr. Ball. As an official of the U.S. Government when I was 

counsel for the Lend-Lease Administration or the Foreign Economic
NOMINATIONS 21

Administration I worked with the governments of a great many 

different countries, and 1 was generally familiar with their economic 

problems.

As you may recall, the Foreign Economic Administration was 

concerned with problems all over the world, so tha t I did get a good 

deal of experience from an official point of view at tha t time.

Q U A L IF IC A T IO N S FO R STA T E D E PA R T M E N T P O S IT IO N

Senator Hickenlooper. Mr. Ball, I hate to ask you for an answer 

which might be considered a self-serving declaration, but do you 

consider your experience is substantia l to deal with the economic 

barriers of the countries of the world so far as the interests of the 

United States are concerned?

Mr. Ball. I think tha t I can do a very creditable job of representing the interests of the United States, Senator. I feel cpiite 

confident of my abilities and I also feel that I have had a variety 

of experience which, while perhaps uneven, is nevertheless considerable 

and relevant to the responsibilities which I will be facing.

M R. ball’s C R IT IC IS M O F V IC E P R E S ID E N T N IX O N ’S E X P E R IE N C E

Senator Hickenlooper. The reason I ask that, Mr. Ball, is tha t 

in the New York Times of October 9, 1960 there appears the text of 

a letter you wrote. It was a very exhaustive and adversely critical 

letter, the reading of which leaves me with the impression tha t you 

thought that Mr. Nixon was almost an utter dolt regarding his experience and activities in foreign countries, tha t he was really inexperienced, that he had no particular background, and that he was in 

fact—and these are my words, not the words in your letter—an 

utter phony insofar as any ability or experience in the matters of 

of foreign affairs was concerned. All this in spite of the fact tha t he 

had covered the countries of most of the world and had eight years 

experience in political and economic problems which confront us. I 

just wondered how you would compare your background and experience serving your country with the alleged u tter lack of experience 

and so on that you set out in your le tter of criticism of Mr. Nixon.

Mr. Ball. Senator, I would say two things. First, tha t that letter 

was written, as you recall, in the course of a political campaign, and 

that was intended to deflate what seemed to me to be exaggerated 

emphasis which had been put on the issue of experience.

Senator H ickenlooper. May I ask this: You will recall some years 

ago an erstwhile candidate for the presidency of the United States 

received a great deal of publicity when he remarked before a congressional committee about some statement he had made tha t, “Oh, 

tha t is just, campaign o ratory.” Now, would you describe your letter 

about Mr. Nixon to some extent as campaign oratory in the heat of 

the campaign?

Mr. Ball. As I say, what I was seeking to do in tha t letter, in 

which I was joined, as I recall, by Mr. Finletter who associated himself 

with me in writing it, was to deflate what seemed to be an excessive 

emphasis upon the experience issue. I was persuaded at that time 

tha t there had been an exaggerated statem ent of Mr. Nixon’s experience, and that this was simply an atte mpt to bring into focus some
22 NOMINATIONS

of th e contentions on the other side in order to bring about a better 

balance so tha t the American people could make a saner judgment.

Senator Hickenlooper. Mr. Ball, do you believe t ha t there might 

be someone who might think tha t your lack of on-the-ground experience in many foreign countries in the world did not qualify you, 

or t ha t it laid the basis for a claim of inflated ability to handle these 

problems?

Mr. Ball. He would certainly be entitled to tha t opinion, sir. I 

hope he wouldn’t write a letter to the New York Times about it.

Senator Lausche. Does tha t mean you regret tha t you wrote the 

letter?

Mr. Ball. Not at all.

Senator Hickenlooper. Tha t, of course, gets around to whose ox 

is being gored, of course.

For the record, Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that this 

letter be published in connection with my questions here.

The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered.* 1

Senator Hickenlooper. Then on October 16 there was a reply 

to your letter written by Mr. Paul L. Franken, of New York who took 

some issue with you on this particular matter. In order to make the 

record complete on tha t score, I ask tha t Mr. Fran ken’s letter be 

published immediately following Mr. Ball’s in the record.

The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered.1

Senator Hickenlooper. Needless to say, Mr. Ball, I would say 

that I disagree with your letter about Mr. Nixon. I am willing to 

concede tha t it was written in the emotions of a political campaign 

in which you were an ardent partisan, and apparently a successful 

ardent partisan. But by the same token, I hope th at in your activities as U nder Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, your emotions 

do no t carry you from a partisan standpoint to extremes.

Mr. Ball. I am very aware, sir, of the responsibilities of public 

office and the fact tha t an official of the U.S. Government must 

represent his country and all the people.

Senator Hickenlooper. I think that is all.

Thank you, Mr. Ball.

The Chairman. The Senator from Alabama.

M R. ball’s R E S P O N S IB IL IT Y FO R F O R E IG N A ID PROGRAM

Senator Sparkman. Mr. Ball, as Under Secretary for Economic 

Affairs, ju st what is your relationship to the foreign aid programs?

Mr. Ball. As the Under Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, 

I also serve as the mutual security coordinator under authority 

delegated by the President to the Secretary of State and subdelegated 

by the Secretary of State to me, so that I have very considerable authority with respect to the ICA. I am also the Chairman of the Board 

of the Development Loan Fund.

Senator Sparkman. You thoroughly subscribe to the policies of the 

Development Loan Fund?

i S ubse quently, Senator Hickenlooper asked unanimous consent to withdraw th e reque st for publication 

of th is letter in these words: “I would like to ask unan imous consent of the committee to withdraw my 

request for the publication in the record of the two letters t ha t I referred to a while ago. My reason is tha t 

I do not know th at t hey will contribute any thing of a materia l value to this hearing a nd the letters were 

written in the heat and exuberance and so on of a political campaign, and if it is all rig ht with the com mitte e,

I thi nk we m igh t as well n ot clutter up the record w ith th em.

“I f anybo dy wants to read them they know of the dates .”

Th e committee agreed to the request.
NOMINATIONS 23

Mr. Ball. I certainly subscribe to the principle.

Senator Sparkman. Th at is what I meant.

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Senator Sparkman. And what is your thought regarding the old 

point 4 program?

Mr. B all. The old point 4 program, technical assistance you mean?

Senator Sparkman. Well, it is now called technical assistance.

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Senator Sparkman. Out in the field I think it is still called point 4.

Mr. Ball. Right.

Senator Sparkman. And I rath er like that appellation. And may 

I say I hope you get back to it.

Mr. Ball. Well, I think tha t technical assistance is obviously 

something that is extremely necessary, particularly for countries 

which are at a fairly low state of technical and institutional development, where what they need more than anything else, very often 

before any development money could be effectively used, is the 

knowledge, the training, the ability, the skills, the institutional structure through which the aid funds can be put to work. Obviously one 

of our major tasks with all of these countries is to assist them to reach 

the level of development in which they can most effectively help 

themselves. I would assume that technical assistance m ust be a very 

essential pa rt of what we are attempting to do in this area.

RELATI ONSH IP TO EXPO RT- IM PO RT BA NK AN D IN TE RNATI ONAL BA NK

Senator Sparkman. You will have no direct part in, or participation in, the Ex port-Imp ort Bank or the In ternational Bank, will you?

Mr. Ball. I will have no direct relation with the Export-Import 

Bank insofar as any lines of auth ority are concerned. I think it is 

indispensable that there be a close working relationship between my 

office and that of the Chairman and the other members of the Board 

of Directors of the Export-Im port Bank.

Senator Sparkman. That is just what I was going to ask you. I 

agree with you fully in tha t statement. You recognize tha t the Bank 

has been doing a very fine job?

Mr. Ball. I know t hat certainly; yes.

Senator Sparkm kn. And the same thing is true of the International 

Bank?

Mr. Ball. Yes. Mv relation to the Internatio nal Bank is somewhat different in tha t I believe tha t it has been customary to designate the Under Secretary for Economic Affairs as the Alternate 

Governor of the Bank. The Secretary of the Treasury is the Governor.

CO NNE CT IO N W IT H FA MILY TR US T FU ND

Senator Sparkman. Now, Mr. Ball, just a very brief comment 

regarding this trust about which Senator Hickenlooper was asking 

you.

I was not here when the questioning originally started, b ut I gather 

that that is a family trust.

Mr. Ball. That is a trust created by my father; yes, sir.

Senator Sparkman. Let me see if I understood you correctly. You 

said only one foreign investment was involved in the trust?
24 NOMINATIONS

Mr. Ball. I would have to recheck the portfolio. Tha t is my 

recollection.

Senator Sparkman. You said tha t was the case so far as you could 

recall?

Mr. Ball. So far as I recall.

Senator Sparkman. You further made the state ment tha t you 

would be willing to divest yourself of your trusteeship.

Mr. Ball. Yes, I would feel quite certain of that.

Senator Sparkman. I want to make just this comment, Mr. Chairman, since there has been so much questioning on this general subject 

with reference to other appointees.

It seems to me th at since a family trus t is concerned and your p art 

in it is as a trustee, there certainly could be no criticism. And I do 

not see th at you should be required to divest yourself of it or even to 

surrender your powers as trustee, provided you divest yourself, or the 

tru st divests itself, of foreign investments and does not make foreign 

investments.

Mr. Ball. Right.

Senator Sparkman. Th at is the way I view it, and I just want to 

say that for the record.

Mr. Ball. Well, I think the other trustees would agree to that, sir.

Senator Sparkman. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. The Senator from Kansas?

reciprocal trade agreements act

Senator Carlson. Mr. Ball, your appearance here this morning 

brings back memories, I believe, of when you and I were on a panel— 

they might have called it a debate at tha t time, which was some years 

ago—with regard to our foreign trade and trade policies. I do 

appreciate your appearance here.

Mr. Ball. I still bear the wounds, Senator.

Senator Carlson. I assure you there are no wounds. We had a 

very pleasant discussion on some of our problems.

I note that your position is to be Under Secretary of State for 

Economic Affairs, and I think you have mentioned to other members 

of the committee the agencies tha t will be under your supervision.

You have had, I assume, many years of background in the foreign 

trade field as an attorney or representative of your firm and the 

Government in this area?

Mr. Ball. Tha t is right, sir.

Senator Carlson. Personally, I feel it is the No. 1 position in the 

State Department. There may be high policy decisions made by 

upper echelons, but as I view the international situation, trade and 

the economic conditions of the foreign countries represent the No. 1 

problem.

Have you given any thought to the fact that during your term of 

office the Reciprocal Trade Agreements Act will expire?

Mr. Ball. Yes, I am very aware of th at, sir. It expires next year.

Senator Carlson. Do you realize that there is considerable question in our Nation about the effectiveness of these agreements?

Mr. Ball. I am aware tha t there is a good deal of protectionist 

sentim ent, some of which, I think, has been developing over the last 2 

or three years.
NOMINATIONS 25

Senator Carlson. I believe, in response to a question asked by the 

chairman, you said something in regard to bilateral agreements instead of multilateral.

Are we not obligated through GATT to handle our trade through 

multilateral agreements?

Mr. Ball. That is right. If you have tha t impression, then I did 

not speak very clearly, because I did not mean to suggest that we 

should depart from the system of m ultilateral negotiation which we 

have followed through the mechanism of GATT.

CO MMON M A RK ET

Senator Carlson. You are familiar with the Common Market in 

Europe?

Mr. Ball. That is right, sir.

Senator Carlson. Is not one of the criticisms that we have against 

the Common M arket th at Germany, France, and some other countries 

enter into bilateral agreements and forget the m ultilateral agreements 

tha t we accept?

Mr. Ball. Well, the Common Market, as I understand it, is 

being justified under the provisions of article 24 of the General 

Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.

And the discussions which are going on in Geneva at the moment 

concern the extent to which the members of the Common Mar ket in 

the work which has been done through the Common Market have 

complied with the provisions of that article.

Senator Carlson. You have, of course, had experience in Europe 

and you are familiar with European organizations. You made 

statements here this morning about those. And, personally, I am 

familiar with many of your contacts in Europe with regard to trade. 

E X P E R IE N C E IN L A T IN A M ER IC A

What about Latin America? Have you had contacts in Latin 

America?

Mr. Ball. To some extent, but to a much lesser extent. I feel I 

have a great deal to learn about L atin America.

Senator Carlson. Have you been in the Latin American countries 

as a representative of this Government or your firm on trade m atters?

Mr. Ball. No. I have in my earlier tour with the Government 

with the Foreign Economic Administration had an assignment from 

the White House in, I believe 1943, for some negotiations in Cuba, 

where I was a member of a delegation there, but I have not participated publicly, in a public capacity, in any trade negotiations in 

Latin America.

Senator Carlson. Have you been in, for instance, Ecuador? Peru? 

Chile?

Mr. Ball. I know Central America reasonably well, and Venezuela. 

I have not been down the west coast of South America.

C R ED IT C O M PET IT IO N FR OM ABR OAD

Senator Carlson. From your operations and contacts, are you 

familiar with the competition in trade, particularly in industry, the 

competition of credit that we get from other foreign countries?
26 NOMINATIONS

Mr. Ball. Yes, I have been very much concerned about tha t, and, 

as a matter of fact, this is one of the items on the agenda which I 

have been following for myself in the last few days, in an atte mp t to 

ascertain the extent to which the U.S. Government fails to come up 

to either the magnitude or the freedom of the guarantees or insurance 

which is provided by other governments to assist their commercial 

interests and industrial interests to extend long-term credits.

Senator Carlson. In your studies of foreign trade, have industrial 

firms in the United States visited with you in regard to the competition 

that they are receiving in credits, for instance, from Germany and 

other countries?

Mr. Ball. Yes, I have heard a great deal of talk from some of the 

industrial firms which my law firm has represented in this connection.

They have felt that in many areas of the world, th at when they had 

to meet the competition of German firms, t ha t the German firms were 

able to extend better payment terms than we were.

Now, this is simply what has been represented to me by American <

industrialists. It will certainly be my duty and business to try to 

ascertain what the facts are with regard to this and see what should 

be done about it.

Senator Carlson. Do you not feel that if we could somehow match 

the credit competition of some of the foreign countries, it would give 

us additional employment in this Nation and also probably prevent 

the removal of some factories, some industries, from our own Nation 

into foreign countries?

Mr. Ball. I think it is an obligation of the Government to do 

everything possible, particularly at the present time, when we are 

faced with balance of payments difficulties, to bring about the expansion of the U.S. trade consistent with the obligations which we 

have taken to encourage multilateral trade and to encourage nondiscriminatory trade.

PRO B LEM OF LIG H T A IR CRA FT IN D U STR Y

Senator Carlson. I want to give you one problem to work on, a 

problem with which I am somewhat familiar, and I think it is an 

important one in the interests of employment and the retention of 

the great industry we have in this Nation. This deals with the 

manufacture of light aircraft.

I know personally some of the problems, and I should mention that 

we have three outstanding companies—the Beech, Cessna, and Piper— 

in this Nation.

It is recognized tha t they make the best light single-motor and 

light twin-motor planes, and they are selling them all over the world. r

But I have been advised by people in top echelons tha t it may be

necessary for them to move their factories, or some of their factories, 

to other countries; tha t the competition is such that some of these 

countries are buying aircraft that, is not of the quality and the type 

of ours.

I think the No. 1 problem is to keep our people at home, and I 

sincerely hope you devote some time to that.

Mr. Ball. This is a problem of which we are very much aware,

Senator.
NOMINATIONS 27

EX PERIEN CE IN ASIA

Senator Carlson. I want to ask you a little about Asia.

Are you familiar with Asia?

Mr. Ball. No, I am not, except to the extent tha t I have, in connection with my earlier Government service, had some contacts 

there. I have had very little professional experience in Asia.

VIE WS EXPRESSED AT NATIONAL INDU STRIAL CON FERENC E BOARD 

MEE TING

Senator Carlson. In January 1900, I believe you attended a 

meeting in New York City which was held, I believe, by the National 

Industrial Conference Board, at which there were representatives 

from the Common Market countries and also from the Outer Seven.

At tha t time, were you representing the Government, the National 

Industrial Conference Board, or a private group?

Mr. Ball. No. I attended that meeting as a private citizen.

The fact tha t I had some experience with the Common Market was 

perhaps the reason why I was invited. The views tha t I expressed 

were my own views, as they always have been.

I have never been in the position of try ing to speak for any group 

or any other government. I have always attem pted to maintain 

complete independence in the views I have expressed.

The fact tha t I had had experience through professional relations 

was, quite likely, the reason for my receiving invitations of this kind.

Senator Carlson. At that time were you not a counsel for the 

Common M arket of Europe?

Mr. Ball. My law firm was retained by the Common Market; 

that is, I mentioned a moment ago, the Commission of the European 

Economic Community.

But I was not there representing the Community in any sense, and 

I always endeavored to make t ha t clear whenever I spoke.

Senator Carlson. I will say this: I am pleased with the remarks 

you made there, as reported in the newspapers, and I am going to 

ask, Mr. Chairman, that they be placed in the record.

The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.

Senator Carlson. If I may read a p art of the statem ent:

Mr. Ball observed th at despite the danger of discrimination toward trade of the 

United States and other countries inherent in the competing European blocs there 

was more to be gained than lost for this country. He cited the Paris meeting last 

week as a hopeful sign of future harmony not only between the two European 

blocs but between them and the United States and Canada.

And then you go further and detail it. I ask t ha t tha t be included 

in the record.

The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.

(The article referred to follows:)

[From the New York Times, Jan. 22, 1960]

G r o w th in T r a n sa tla n tic T ra de P r e d ic te d at T wo P a r ley s H e r e

Moves jus t initiated for a broad new American-European economic partnership 

should lead to further large expansion in two-way transatlantic trade, two business 

groups were assured yesterday.

Spokesmen for the European Common Market and a British Cabinet Minister 

contributed to an optimistic presentation of future developments under Western
28 NOMINATIONS

economic cooperation. The Common Market formed by France, West Germ any, 

Italy, the Neth erlan ds, Belgium and Luxembourg was a majo r topic at opening 

sessions of a 2-day meeting here of the Nation al Ind ustrial Conference Board 

at the Commodore Hotel.

A sub stantial expansion of tra de and oth er benefits from the proposed new 

Atlan tic Economic Com munity was forecast by Reginald Maudling, Presiden t 

of the British Board of Trade . Mr. Maudling, whose position is roughly equivalent to th at of this cou ntry’s Secre tary of Commerce, spoke at a luncheon of the 

British-American Chamber of Commerce at the Biltmore Hotel.

PA R IS PA RLEY NO TE D

The British Cab inet Minister also spoke later at the conference board meeting 

on the significance of the new tra nsatl antic partnership initiated in a high-level 

diplomatic conference in Paris last week. He noted th at while the proposed 

Atlantic Com munity heightened prospects for resolving the differences between 

the Common Market a nd the new Outer Seven bloc, the form of solution was n ot 

yet clear.

The Outer Seven is composed of Britain, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Austria, 

Switzerland, and Portugal.

At the conference board session George W. Ball, partn er in the law firm of 

Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Ball, gave an analysis of the Common Market. Mr. 

Ball, who is counsel for the Common Market as well as its associated institutions, 

also discussed the Outer Seven.

Mr. Ball observed th at despite the danger of discrimination toward trade of 

the United States and other countries inherent in the competing European blocs 

there was more to be gained than lost for this country. He cited the Paris 

meeting last week as a hopeful sign of fu ture harmony not only between the two 

European blocs bu t between them and the United States and Canada.

At th e Paris meeting agreement was reached for development of a new economic 

association to make the United States and Can ada full partners with the 18 

OEEC coun tries in contin uing collaboration in trade and in aid to less developed 

countries.

Mr. Ball commented th at the decisions reached in Paris “rep resent a new and 

wise in itia tive in American policy.”

At the conference board, the British Tra de Minister no ted th at some discriminatory tre atmen t for the United States from the two European groups would be 

tem porary. He said the recent trend had been toward the remo val of discrim inatory barriers to U.S. expo rts and th at this should continue.

The conference board meeting heard one dissent on the expe ctation of greater 

harm ony between the European blocs from Jean Claud e Pe tti t, commercial 

counselor for the French Embassy. M. Pe tti t said t hat the unresolved differences 

in principle made a compromise highly improbable.

The Chairman. Senator Mansfield?

Senator Mansfield. Mr. Ball, I am delighted to see you before 

this committee to be considered for the office of Under Secretary of 

State for Economic Affairs.

After what has been said this morning, I have come to the conclusion t hat some of our best letters are never written and some of our 

best speeches never made, and that applies on this side, as well as 

the other side of the table.

M R. ball’s M U TU A L SE C U R IT Y AC T R E S P O N S IB IL IT IE S

Have you read the Mutual Security Act in any detail, sir?

Mr. Ball. Yes, I have, sir.

Senator Mansfield. What is your relationship in the application 

of th at statute in relation to the Pentagon?

Mr. Ball. So far as military aid is concerned?

Senator M ansfield. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Well, I would not want to try to define the relationships 

exactly, simply because I have not been on the job long enough to 

be able to be entirely clear.
NOMINATIONS 29

Actually, as I understand the responsibilities of my office, I have 

very considerable responsibilities both with respect to programing 

the aid and presentation of the aid programs to the congressional 

committees, and also in regard to the administration of the aid in 

the field.

But I confess tha t I cannot give you as clear and precise an answer 

as I would like to.

Senator Mansfield. Would you say, Mr. Ball, tha t you are the 

one who, under the law, exercises all authority over all aspects of the 

foreign aid program?

Mr. Ball. Yes, I would say tha t is true, with the exception of aid 

provided through the Export-Im port Bank where, as I understand it, 

there is no juridical relation with my office.

Senator Mansfield. I am speaking only of mutual securitv.

Mr. Ball. Yes. Right.

Senator Mansfield. And I would hope tha t you would always 

keep tha t in mind and tha t the Pentagon would always observe tha t 

stricture, because amendments, many of them, have been written 

into the Mutu al Security Act seeking to give greater authority to the 

Under Secretary of S tate in the conduct of the foreign aid program.

P O S S IB L E R E O R G A N IZ A T IO N O F M U TU A L SE C U R IT Y PR OGRAM

Do you have any ideas as to whether or not the ICA should remain 

as a semi-independent agency or whether it should be incorporated 

into the Departm ent of State?

Mr. Ball. We are very actively studying the question of the 

structural reorganization of the whole aid program. The Budget 

Bureau has just finished a basic factual report for us on this question.

I have set up a committee within the Departm ent to give priority 

attention to this, because I think it is of the very greatest necessity 

that we assure ourselves that we have the proper structure for administering aid on the most efficient basis.

I would hope that, when we come up before this committee, we 

will be able to make some detailed suggestions with regard to the 

organization of the aid program.

I know that this is something which the committee has requested 

us to do and I am very mindful of this. Rather than attempting to 

tell the committee today my views, which are in the state of being 

formed, I would prefer to wait until we come formally before the 

committee.

Senator Mansfield. That is perfectly understandable. Th at is 

all, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. The Senator from Louisiana?

P R O T E C T IO N FO R U .S . IN D U S T R IE S

Senator Long. Mr. Ball, I have sometimes wondered whether some 

of our representatives in the State Departm ent were representatives 

of this Government to a foreign country, or whether they were 

representatives of a foreign country in representing its interests to this 

Government.

Now, I know this matter of protectionism, of course, has given 

you considerable cause for thought and meditation on occasion. 

64718—61 ------3
30 NOMINATIONS

Just what is your attitude toward the protection of American 

industries which they are entitled to expect in our trade and aid 

program?

Mr. Ball. Senator Long, I believe quite strongly that the kind 

of world that we should hope to achieve is a world in which there 

would be a very high level of international trade.

I think this is essential not only for our own prosperity, but for the 

strength of the whole free world. I think that to achieve this essential, 

indispensable, high level of trade, we must work toward the progressive 

elimination of restrictive and protective arrangements.

Now, in saying that, I do not at all lack sympathy with the position 

of the individual industry or individual firm or with the labor force of 

that firm or industry, which may suffer loss or be handicapped by 

virtue of the removal of restrictions or protective arrangements.

I think that we have to develop safeguards. I think that just 

what form they should take is something which is a matter upon which 

there can be a wide difference of view. <

There comes a time, I am sure, when industry, specific industries, 

must reconcile themselves to the fact that some structural changes 

are necessary on their part in order to contribute to the larger national 

interest. I think that the Government has responsibility to ease the 

transition, ease the dislocations, the breakage that may result.

Now, just what form this will take is something which I hope to be 

able, within the administration, to make some suggestions about.

Just what the policy of the administration will be on this, I cannot 

say definitively at this time.

Senator Long. The thought occurs to me that with regard to any 

one of a great number of industries— and I do not have particularly 

in mind the larger ones at the moment, even though some of the 

larger ones are involved— the decisions that we make with regard to 

expanding trade, with some relevance to our aid program, can amount 

to an ultimate death sentence for some of these industries. I wonder 

if you would agree that that is correct?

Mr. Ball. The problem which we face, it seems to me, Senator, is 

how to make the maximum or most efficient use of the national 

resources with which we are blessed. And this may involve in some 

cases, as I say, dislocations, economic changes, structural changes, 

which are essential in the specific situation with respect to a specific 

industry.

Structural changes of this kind occur every day, and industry is able 

to absorb them in most instances. They occur as a result of changes 

in consumer taste. The y occur as a result of technological advance.

They occur for any number of reasons.

The changes which result from the reduction of barriers to trade, r

by and large, tend to be local and not large in relation to the national 

economy as a whole.

They do, however, cause real hardship, I am sure, for individual 

companies and individual industries, and this, I think, should be the 

concern of the Government.

I think that in this case there must be some mechanism provided 

that will help the situation.
NOMINATIONS 31

JA PA N E S E C O M PE T IT IO N W IT H U .S . T E X T IL E IN D U STR Y

Senator Long. Let us just take one specific case where I think I 

could take a statesm anlike atti tud e: textiles. I can be a statesman 

about that.

All of our textile industries are gone. We once had them. We do 

not have them now.

Therefore, I feel th at as far as Louisiana is concerned, we have no 

particular interest in defending the textile industry, although perhaps 

at one time we did.

Under our program we gave American aid to help make the Japanese 

more efficient textile producers than we are. At least we sent our own 

people over there to teach them how to produce the textiles.

We, in many instances, organized and constructed their plants for 

them. We gave them the very best American equipment that we had. 

In many instances, it was more modern than the average American 

textile industry. Now they are in a position to be the low-cost producer over there, partly because of the wage differential and partly 

because of the modern equipment and the modern methods tha t we 

helped to provide for them.

Now, what is your a ttitude with regard to the situation of an American industry looking down the road in a situation such as tha t one?

We can anticipate tha t if the present trend continues, that industry 

would be forced to come to us for protection or else forced to go out of 

business.

I ask the question in specifics, b ut am thinking in general terms as 

well.

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Senator Long. Do you think th at we ought to try to work out some 

uniform system where each industry would be entitled to some degree 

of protection at some point?

Or do you think t ha t we ought more or less to go on the basis, as it 

seems we are going on right now, th at the first industry tha t feels the 

blow has to go out of business?

Mr. Ball. I do not know the textile situation in any detail.

I think th at in some cases the textile industry has been able to meet 

certain types of competition by increased investment, which means 

increased mechanization.

Senator Long. It was my impression about tha t industry, just as 

one example, that at the present time our policy seems to be to urge 

the Japanese not to take full advantage of their trade advantage in the 

domestic market.

Mr. Ball. We have had a policy of voluntary restriction, as I understand it, so far as the Japanese are concerned. This is a policy 

at which we are taking a look at the moment.

I would rath er hate to prejudice what our final decision may be by 

suggesting any views of my own to the committee at this time.

Senator Long. You can imagine how galling it is to the textile 

people to be told to go see the Japanese if they want to discuss the 

survival of their industry.

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Senator Long. Originally the Congress was charged with the 

responsibility of regulating trade, but it delegated it to the State 

Departm ent in many instances or to the President who, in turn,
32 NOMINATIONS

delegates it to the State Department. And then the State Department 

tells the textile people to go see the Japanese.

I was just curious to know your reaction as to what the position 

should be.

Mr. B all. I have long had doubts as to the desirability of voluntary 

restrictive arrangements such as this, but, as I say, I feel tha t whatever 

I said a t this point would be the voice of an only half-informed man, 

and I would like to have an opportunity to study this further with 

the experts tha t we have in the Department and elsewhere in the 

Government before 1 expressed a settled conviction to the committee.

TR A D E C O M PE T IT IO N

Senator Long. Do you gain the impression that, as against the 

present trend, America is becoming a high-cost producer of a great 

number of items that arc presently being supplied to the American 

market almost predominantly by American producers?

Mr. B all. Well, I think tha t we have to expect the development of 

competition in the world, and I think, by and large, it will be healthy 

for our own economy.

The trade figures would indicate that we do not do at all badly in 

world trade.

I do not think we do well enough myself, and I would think tha t 

every effort ought to be made now to promote American exports 

around the world.

1 do not think we are going to promote American exports around the 

world if we get protectionist ourselves, because I think tha t will only 

invite retaliation. We will have a gradual closing up of world markets 

to our own goods and much more difficulty at home than we are encountering at the present time.

I would very much rather see the problem solved by a real effort 

made to control the wage-price spiral to keep our costs on a proper 

basis, a competitive basis, and, at the same time, do a great deal 

more toward the development and promotion of American exports.

Senator Long. Do you know of any major foreign industry in a 

foreign country tha t has been permitted to be driven out by the 

competition from this country or from some other country?

Mr. Ball. There are a number of instances where American industry is doing extremely well in European markets which might otherwise be served by local industry.

I suppose one of the really good examples is the automobile industry.

If you look at the situation in the United Kingdom, for example, 

between General Motors with Vauxhall and the Ford automobile, 

they have a very substantial share of the British market.

Senator Long. But you are not talking about American exports 

to Britain. You are talking about American investments in Britain.

Mr. Ball. I am talking about American in dustry; yes, that is right.

Senator Long. Of course, you realize tha t tha t is an entirely 

different matter than tha t about which I am asking you.

Mr. Ball. Well, as far as American exports are concerned, American

g

oods in many lines, largely because of their technological advance, 

ave done extremely well and have gotten very big beachheads in 

foreign markets which they have been able to expand.
NOMINATIONS 33

I do not myself, Senator, have any doubt as to the ability of American industry to sell around the world. If it applies as much energy in 

selling to foreign markets as it applies at home; as much ingenuity; 

devotes as much research to the development of products to meet 

consumer tastes in those areas; provides as competent personnel to 

sell abroad as it has to sell at home; I think American industry has 

enormous potential for developing its markets around the world.

F O R E IG N TR A D E R E S T R IC T IO N S

Senator Long. You are familiar, of course, with the extent to which 

our friends and allies th roughout the world do impose restrictions to 

preserve their own industries?

Mr. Ball. Well, I am quite opposed to those and I can assure you 

that one of the major efforts which I will try to bring to bear is to 

do the very best to secure fair treatment for American industry abroad.

I think that is an obligation of the U.S. Government.

Senator Long. Here is a thought that occurs to me about this 

matter, Mr. Ball.

You in the State Departm ent say you are against any quantita tive 

restrictions and the American delegation took that attitude at the 

meeting at GATT and at other international meetings.

Now, foreign countries take advantage of tha t and say: “ All right, 

we do not want any quantita tive restrictions.” And they call upon 

you to oppose efforts by some of us who represent industries of our 

States to impose any sort of restrictions tha t would preserve domestic 

industries here.

Mr. Ball. Right.

Senator Long. But they do not go along with your language when 

the shoe is on the other foot.

When they have some industries they see in danger of going out 

of business, they are quick to put on a quantita tive restriction.

You talk about France. How many American automobiles are we 

allowed to send to France now?

Mr. Ball. This is a question where I think that continued efforts 

have to be made to break these quantita tive restrictions down.

Let me say this:

A great deal has already been accomplished in this way. The 

quantita tive restrictions which were maintained by the European 

countries were mostly set up after the war and justified on the ground 

that they had balance-of-payments problems.

Now, by and large, these balance-of-payments problems have 

been removed.

Several of the countries of Western Europe have substantial foreign 

exchange surpluses.

Senator L ong. Almost enough dollars to empty Fort Knox, Ky., 

have they not?

Mr. Ball. Th at is right.

And I think tha t we have to make very strong efforts to break 

down quantitativ e restrictions.

But I think a great deal has been done. The amount of liberalization tha t has taken place in the last 2 or 3 years is really very rem arkable, and I would hope th at we will continue to press in this direction
34 NOMINATIONS

so that we can assure entry of American goods without quantitative 

restrictions to a very large extent indeed.

Senator Long. How about the other side of the coin where these 

American industries find tha t they are the high-cost producer and 

they are going to have to get some sort of protection.

What is your attitude toward them?

Mr. Ball. I think that quantitative restrictions are undesirable.

I think the committee should understand mv views on this. On 

the whole, I am opposed to them. I can find only rare instances 

where I think they might be justified.

TA RIF F PRO TEC TIO N

Senator Long. What is your attitude toward tariff protection?

Mr. Ball. I think tariff protection, if the protection is justified, 

is a far better way of protecting industry than quantitative restrictions. For one thing, they do not give absolute protection to the 

totally inefficient producer, which is the result you get with 

quan titative restrictions.

You have quantitative restrictions and anybody can produce and 

sell without having to meet at all the competition from abroad.

You have a tariff and there is a differential; at least taking into 

account tha t differential, he still has to produce efficiently enough 

to be able to sell.

Senator Long. It is my impression that we had bette r make our 

plans to get out of the fisheries industries if we are not going to plan 

to protect them at some point. Are you familiar with the situation 

regarding shrimp, for example?

Mr. Ball. I do not know about that situation at all, Senator. 

I am not familiar with it.

Senator Long. The foreign countries have 50 percent of our market 

now. At the rate it is going, they will have 96 percent within 

another 10 years.

Would your attitude be that at no particular point could tha t 

industry rely or look to any sort of protection?

Mr. Ball. No, I do not deny the necessity for some form of protection under certain circumstances. I say that, in principle, I 

think we should work toward as free a trading situation as we can.

I am not without sympathy for the position of the industry which 

is doing its best to produce efficiently and still finds itself hard 

pressed.

This, I recognize, as one of the facts of life and I recognize tha t 

there is an obligation of the Government to take account of this fact.

I do not know anything about the fisheries industry, but I shall 

endeavor to educate myself.

Senator Long. The thought tha t occurs to me is this: Looking at 

the situation tha t is developing, there are, let us say, 20 American 

industries tha t are high-cost producers.

Instead of having an extremely high tariff, one five times as high 

as the industry needed at the time it was put on to preserve some of 

those industries, others being required to go entirely out of business, 

it seems to me as though it would be more fair to try to let them all 

jointly share the burden of foreign competition.

I am curious to know if you have any thoughts along th at line?
NOMINATIONS 35

Mr. Ball. As I say, 1 think, in principle, quantitative restrictions 

do tend to protect in some cases the totally inefficient producer in 

tha t they take no account at all of the degree of efficiency.

For tha t reason, I would think tha t tariffs, if protection is justified, 

are a better mechanism, and 1 think this has been the policy of the 

United States for a very long time.

Senator Long. I am concerned somewhat also about some of these 

heads-they-win-tails-we-lose situations tha t develop in our trade and 

aid programs, particularly the trade part of it.

Some years ago we made an agreement with Mexico that we would 

reduce imports of oil from Mexico, and then subsequently we made 

an agreement with Venezuela to reduce tariffs. Now, under the 

most-favored-nations clause, we gave that tariff reduction to all the 

others. Mexico then proceeded to abrogate her agreement with us 

and continued to enjoy all of the tariff concessions tha t we gave to 

Venezuela.

Do you think tha t it is quite right for us to proceed on a basis where 

another nation can break its agreements with us and still get the mostfavored-nation treatment tha t is intended for someone who is keeping 

his end of the bargain?

Mr. Ball. I am not familiar with that particular situation.

I do know tha t there are mechanisms under the GATT agreement 

which should provide for taking account of that.

FO R E IG N AI D E X P E N D IT U R E S a

Senator Long. I have been somewhat concerned also, Mr. Ball— 

I don’t know whether you feel this way about it—tha t a great amount 

of our aid money has been spent in ways so th at foreign nations never 

knew they were getting the money. The man on the stree t never 

understood tha t that happened.

Have you ever had the feeling tha t tha t was happening on occasion?

Mr. Ball. I am sure it has happened on occasion. I think it is 

something we should concern ourselves with. I regard it as important.

U SE OF C O U N T E R PA R T FO R F O R E IG N D E B T R E T IR E M E N T

Senator Long. Are you familiar with the extent to which we have 

reduced and retired the debts of foreign nations with our foreign aid 

money?

Mr. Ball. Do you mean their internal debts or their foreign debts?

Senator Long. Their domestic debts.

Mr. Ball. I know that the foreign aid money has had some 

budgetary consequences for these countries.

Senator Long. Do you know that more than $2.5 billion of American foreign aid money was used to retire domestic debts of foreign 

countries in Western Europe?

Mr. Ball. I am not familiar with that statistic, but, as I recall 

the situation with the money that was provided under the Marshall 

plan, there was a provision for the creation of counterpart funds, of 

course.

Senator Long. And in many instances these counterpart funds, 

by agreement with a foreign country, were permitted to be applied 

against its domestic debt.
36 NOMINATIONS

Now, the thing that distressed me about the matter was that 

nobody in the foreign country, except a few privileged politicians, 

ever knew tha t tha t happened.

The government never told its people tha t the U.S. Government 

was paying off their debt and we did not know it here.

Even the Congress did not know it until someone went over there 

one day and discovered it and came back and proposed tha t we 

modify the law to prevent tha t from happening.

1 would be curious to know your reaction toward the reduction or 

retirement of the debts of foreign nations with American foreign aid 

money?

Mr. Ball. Well, I would suppose tha t American foreign aid 

money should be provided, in the first instance, to meet the foreign 

exchange requirements of those countries in the purchases they make 

abroad.

Now, when we come to the question of the disposition of local 

currencies which may have been taken either as counterpart funds 

or in payment for, let us say, food provided under the Public Law 

480 program, then I would have to know a great deal more about the 

individual circumstances to know what is the proper disposition of 

those funds.

This is a very complicated matter and one which we have been 

studying. Jus t what the position of the Department may be on 

this, after we have had a chance to review it fully, I could not say 

at this moment.

Senator Long. I just wonder if you might agree with me tha t to 

try to pay off the domestic debts of these foreign countries does not 

appear to be an appropriate use of foreign aid money.

Mr. Ball. I can understand the reason for your concern over it.

I would not want to say categorically tha t this should never be 

done without knowing a great deal more about it than I do today, sir.

Senator L ong. Do you imagine you might be able to find some 

more meaningful way to use some of tha t money than just to reduce 

their debt?

Mr. Ball. I would hope so; yes.

I would hope tha t it could be put directly to use in development 

projects or improvement projects, but I would not want to take or 

to express a settled view on that.

S E L F -L IQ U ID A T IN G F O R E IG N A ID P R O JE C T S

Senator Long. I wonder if you might tend toward the view that 

these investments in foreign aid should, if possible, be self-liquidating 

investments?

Mr. Ball. Well, I think, to the extent that it does not interfere 

with the effectiveness, the objective should be to see them selfliquidating.

Are you thinking of the situation where the project itself is selfliquidating or simply that the aid money is made available to the 

foreign government on a loan basis where it will be, in turn, repaid in 

dollars later?

Senator Long. I am thinking in terms of the sort of situation where 

the projects themselves can be self-liquidating.
NOMINATIONS 37

Mr. Ball. I would suppose tha t there are a number of projects 

which cannot be directly self-liquidating. This is something which 

I hope to learn a great deal more about as I get into these programs. 

Wha t I mean is the kind of thing which is known in the horrid jargon 

of the economists as the economic infrastructure: the roads, the 

harbor facilities, those indispensable adjuncts to society which make 

possible a base from which industrial and agricultural economies can 

>e built. I suppose that some of those cannot he directly selfiquidating in the sense tha t there is a measurable return in currency 

to the Government from the project. They are self-liquidating in 

the larger sense, I suppose, t hat the economy benefits from them—and 

out of the expanded economy—the Government may in time receive 

funds. It can conduct trade out of such proceeds that can form the 

basis for a re payment to the U.S. Government.

Senator Long. If we build a power dam in this country, we make 

it self-liquidating. We make the power pay for the dam, and this 

is true with a great number of projects that we build; the REA 

program is a self-liquidating program.

As a matter of fact, in many States even the highway program is 

self-liquidating in tha t there is a tax placed on the gasoline to pay 

for the highways.

Mr. Ball. You have such things as schools, roads to some extent, 

various municipal facilities which I suppose it is difficult to make 

directly self-liquidating. I would agree with you tha t when they are 

self-liquidating it is a very fortunate situation.

Senator Long. Now, we gave Western Europe $17 billion under 

the Marshall plan and the thought at tha t time was, and the explanation to me was, tha t we had to grant it all, th at we could not loan it 

even on the most favorable terms, even on interest-free terms or on 

terms of forgiving interest for a period of 10 or 20 years, the theory 

being tha t those countries would never to able to pay us. Looking 

back down the road now we see that those countries are holding about 

$9 billion in their central banks and they have about $9 billion of 

American dollars and credits in addition to that, so that, as I said, 

they could just about empty Fort Knox if they called on us to pay off 

in gold all the dollars and credits that they are holding.

Does it occur to you tha t perhaps that program should have been 

started out on the basis th at they would pay it hack when they could 

and th at we would use that money in turn to help other less fortunate 

countries?

Mr. Ball. Of course, some of it was provided in the form of loans 

and, in those cases, there has been not only repayment of the loans 

but actually some prepaym ent of the loans recently which has been 

one of the things helping our reserve situation.

The Marshall plan aid was provided at a time when the dollar shortage was a specter haunting the whole Western society. I think the 

Marshall plan aid, plus the energies of the countries themselves, have 

gotten these countries back to a state of very considerable prosperity.

allies’ obligations to assist underdeveloped areas

Now, what T think we should expect from our Western European 

allies is that they assume a larger burden of the obligations which 

we, th e industrialized countries, have around the world. I may say
38 NOMINATIONS

I have been impressed by the fact tha t what we have seen now is a 

change from the days when the United States was the one towering 

economic power in the Western World to the time when other countries have achieved high measures of prosperity themselves. This is 

good. It makes for prosperity and strength of the West. But I 

think it also imposes on those countries which are accumulating surpluses, an obligation to take a very much larger share of the burden, 

to make a much larger effort tha n some of them are making.

Senator Long. I am sure you read about the degree of success that 

Secretary Anderson and Under Secretary Dillon had when they went 

over to Germany to ask Konrad Adenauer and his people about helping to bear some of the burdens tha t we are carrying in Western 

Europe, did you not?

Mr. Ball. I think this has to be a continuing process of working 

with the Western European nations, and in fact the industrialized 

nations of the world, to help bring about a degree of burden sharing 

and contributions. This is one of th e movements which I hope will 

be greatly aided by the coming into being of the Organization for 

Economic Cooperation and Development which we are going to bring 

before this committee in a fairly short time. It will provide a mechanism for multilateral discussion of these problems amongst a number 

of the industrialized nations, and I would hope tha t out of this can 

come some very real results along the lines th at you suggest.

Senator Long. If you could have anticipated with some degree of 

certainty a t the time tha t the Marshall plan was pu t into effect th at 

12 years later, after we gave them $17 billion, we were going to be 

owing them $18 billion, would it seem to you tha t we should have 

loaned the money on favorable terms rather than just giving it?

Mr. Ball. I would suppose t hat the $17 billion and the $18 billion 

are not exactly comparable figures. But in any event, I am not at all 

sure that we would have accomplished our purpose by lending them 

money even on a long-term basis. The existence of overhanging 

credits of t ha t magnitude I think could very well have retarded the 

recovery of the Western World.

COMMITTEE PROCEDURE

The Chairman. I think I ought to announce that the Senator from 

Ohio had to go to a luncheon. We will proceed now for a little bit 

and then adjourn and come back at 2:30 to hear the remaining 

witnesses.

Mr. Ball, you will have to come back at 2:30. Is that agreeable 

with you? .

Mr. Ball. That is quite agreeable, Senator.

The Chairman. We will go on to 12:30 if tha t is agreeable?

Does the Senator from Tennessee wish to ask questions?

TAX BENEFITS GIVEN TO PRIVATE INVESTMENT ABROAD

Senator Gore. Mr. Ball, in connection with the movement of U.S. 

capital abroad which you discussed with Senator Long and also with 

Senator Carlson, do you recognize that our tax laws, as presently 

constituted, offer preferential treatment to income earned abroad and 

therefore afford an incentive to the movement of both capital and 

factories to foreign countries?
NOMINATIONS 39

Mr. Ball. To the extent tha t the tax laws permit the retention 

of earnings overseas, without requiring them to be brought back and 

subjected to U.S. taxes in the year earned, I know that this is regarded 

by many companies as an advantage. I would say that I don’t 

think that it is perhaps as large an advantage so far as investment in 

developed countries is concerned as is sometimes thought, for the 

simple reason tha t in many of the industrialized countries the taxes 

that are paid by American industries doing business abroad are very 

nearly the same as the taxes which they would be required to pay at 

home. Since there are reciprocal tax treaties, the net effect of requiring income to be repatriated would not be very substantial.

In the case of underdeveloped countries, however, where there is 

very low. indigenous local taxation, there may be a very real advantage and I am not at all sure that tha t advantage couldn’t be 

quite useful in persuading American companies to invest overseas 

in areas where we w ant to encourage that investment.

So I would feel, Senator, tha t this is a matter which is more complicated than may appear a t first blush. I think tha t this is a question 

which has to be carefully considered in relation to the balance-ofpayments problems which we now face. It is my impression tha t 

consideration is being given to it by the Treasury Department at the 

moment. The whole question is being reviewed in the light of the 

complex of the tax laws, and also in relation to the balance-of-payments necessities. But what the conclusion will be, I couldn’t say 

at the moment.

Senator Gore. Your statement that the tax in developed countries approximates the U.S. tax-----

Mr. Ball. It may or may not, depending on the individual country.

Senator Gore. And that it may or may not do so in undeveloped 

countries prompts me to suggest tha t the underdeveloped countries 

are rather quick to catch on, and whether it is a subsidy to the sheik 

or some other form of royalty, the money earned has a tendency to 

be classified as subject to local taxation and thereby deductible from 

taxes owed to the United States, which brings in point anoth er tax 

incentive to income earned abroad, namely, a foreign tax credit.

If a concern has property and earns income in the State of Michigan, 

it pays both an ad valorem and an income tax to the State of Michigan. These taxes to the State of Michigan are deducted from net 

profits, treated as a cost of doing business.

Mr. Ball. Right.

Senator Gore. But if that same concern has a plant in Windsor, 

Canada, the taxes paid to Canada are not treated as a cost of doing 

business, and thereby deducted from taxable income, but rather 

subtracted from the taxes which the company would otherwise owe 

to the United States. There is quite a difference. So this is the 

second preferential treatme nt given to income earned abroad.

Last year the Congress, my opposition to the contrary notwithstanding, passed a bill to permit companies doing business abroad to 

average, to equalize. In other words, if one country does not charge 

a tax equal to the U.S. tax, but another country does, or still another 

charges more, the concerns are now permitted by terms of this bill— 

which I thought was quite unwise—to average out their total investment. It all adds up, Mr. Ball, to the fact tha t the U.S. Government
40 NOMINATIONS

receives but a meager tax upon our foreign investment which now is 

$32 billion.

I hope tha t in the administration of the office to which you have 

been nominated you will give this some consideration. There was 

a time perhaps when we needed to encourage U.S. investment in 

manufacturing facilities in Western Europe and in Japan. Bu t I 

doubt if the national interest is served by continued tax incentives 

for that purpose.

This brings me to another point. I seriously question the advisability of using tax preferences, tax favors, as a means of implementing U.S. foreign policy. According to my belief, the first yardstick by which tax should be measured is equity and fairness between 

the U.S. taxpayers. And if in order to serve a foreign policy objective 

we enact a statute which gives highly preferential treatment to one 

citizen because he invests abroad, then it operates as a discrimination 

to the citizen who invests in the United States.

T A X -S P A R IN G P R IN C IP L E IN TAX A TIO N T R E A T IE S

The D epartmen t has several treaties pending before the Senate now 

embodying the so-called tax-sparing principle by which credit is not 

only given for taxes paid to foreign countries, but indeed credit is 

given for taxes not paid.’ Therefore, the company winds up paying 

very little, if any, taxes in either country.

Now when you measure th at with the yardstick of fairness between 

the U.S. businesses or U.S. citizens, I think a serious question arises 

as to the advisability of such treatment. I do not ask you to commit 

yourself on these matters. I only ask that in the course of the performance of your duties you give consideration to these points of view.

Mr. Ball. We shall.

U .S . T E X T IL E IN D U STR Y

Senator Gore. Now, Senator Long raised the question of the U.S. 

textile industry. You say you will study it. I, too, shall study it.

The last time I looked at the facts, the U.S. textile industry occupied 

a position which few U.S. businesses enjoyed, having over 95 percent 

of the U.S. market and a thriving export trade, the export trade being 

in excess of textile imports into the United States. That would 

appear to me a fortuitous position. However, some segments of the 

textile industry—and there are many segments—have suffered and 

are now suffering severe hardship. The textile industry cannot be 

treated with a simple formula because there arc many segments tha t 

are different from many others.

The segments which have been suffering and are now suffering 

severe import competition are those which require a large amount 

of dextrous hand labor. I only cite tha t for your information and 

for the information of the record.

Now, there is one other thing on which you were questioned about 

which I would like to comment. I thought the letter you wrote to 

the New York Times was good campaign oratory and also helpful.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. The Senator from Missouri.
NOMINATIONS 41

ST ATE D E PA R TM EN T R E S P O N S IB IL IT IE S C O N C E R N IN G PU B L IC LAW 480

Senator Symington. Mr. Ball, will Public Law 480 be under your 

supervision?

Mr. Ball. To some extent; yes. It is not entirely so because the 

Departm ent of Agriculture has some jurisdiction over tha t, and there 

will also be some jurisdiction on the part of Mr. McGovern who has 

just been appointed by the President.

Senator Symington. But the policies will be coordinated with the 

State Department; will they not?

Mr. Ball. That is right.

Senator Symington. To the degree tha t coordination takes effect 

it will come under your jurisdiction; will it not?

Mr. Ball. Th at is right, sir.

SEN D IN G A G R IC U L T U R A L S U R P L U S E S ABROAD

Senator Symington. You have had a great deal of experience, 

your fine record shows, especially in the countries in Europe. Now 

that I have seen the prosperity th at is characteristic of Japa n and many 

countries, above all Germany, my apprehension is not so much there 

from the standpoint of our future relationships, as it is with the socalled underdeveloped countries which I have visited extensively in 

recent years. They say there is a stock and tired phrase to the effect 

that about 90 percent of the people in the world go to bed hungry 

every night. I suppose it is tiring to those people, whatever the 

percentage is. But we have now in this country an extraordinary 

situation. We have in the United States over 11,000 different corporations or individuals engaged in the storage of grain. The cost 

to store it is over a million dollars a day. One company la st year got 

over $20 million in income for storing it, just one company. And in 

the foreign countries where I went, the people seemed to need this 

grain very much. When they get a dollar they naturally can do many 

things with it, as was brought out about retiring the national debt; 

they can buy equipment to produce things and then come back in 

competition against us if there is any capital in the country at all.

In many countries, of course, there is no capital at all. But when 

they get food they can use it and at the same time, as we both know, 

one of the great reasons for depressed prices in any industry of any 

kind is excess inventory. I was wondering, with those premises, if 

we are not going to have a real plan, to move the merchandise you 

might say, the grain, the nonperishable foods which we have stored 

to the extent of a good many billion dollars. And most all of it is in 

two commodities, wheat and corn, although there is considerable 

cotton also.

I introduced a bill which was a tight bill in that it specified that a 

certain percentage of our foreign aid should be in our agricultural 

surplus, and I did it for two reasons. First, the agricultural situa ­

tion—I come from an agricultural State—is not good and is getting 

worse, and one of the two chief reasons for it, I am now convinced, 

is because of these heavy inventories. Secondly, I am also cc nvinced 

that using our agricultural surpluses in this way would be one of the 

greatest ways th at we could spread good will in a practical relationship, 

especially with folks in the new countries in Africa which 1 visited at 

length recently, where they need food so very badly.
42 NOMINATIONS

TU R N IN G A G R IC U LT U R A L S U R P L U S E S IN T O AN A SSET

Based on my experience with this law as a member of the Senate 

agricultural committee—it is like Mark Twain and the weather— 

I was wondering if you would see any objection to being more specific 

in legislation about this matter, inasmuch as, the farm economy of 

the United States is important to the farming people and constitutes 

or should constitute a large area where taxes should come from, from 

the standpoint of source. I was wondering if you would be willing 

to express an opinion this morning about making this law more 

specific, if we are going to continue these tremendous appropriations 

for foreign aid.

Do not misunderstand me; I believe the foreign aid program is 

essential both to our security and our ultimate prosperity. But why 

can we not be more specific about what we do. Obviously we know 

the rulers of the country, not necessarily the people, but tbe rulers 

are interested much more in the dollars than they are in the food. 

But the people, I think, would take the latter just as much as the 

former in most cases.

What would your thoughts be on that?

Mr. Ball. Senator, I wholly agree with you tha t our production of 

surplus food in the United States should be an asset to us and not a 

liability. I know th at this is a feeling which the President holds very 

strongly. I know th at he is greatly concerned with this problem, and 

tha t he intends to make a great effort to see that this is achieved.

Now I am not sufficiently familiar with the details of the legislation 

to know to what extent the legislation might be improved. This is 

one of the questions which we are studying in relation to the whole 

problem of improving both the structure of the institutional arrangements for the administration of aid and also reexamining th e body of 

law which relates to foreign assistance in all of its manifestations with 

the idea of trying to propose to this committee and the Congress ways 

in which it can also be improved.

I am very interested in your remarks and I must say I wholly 

agree with the objectives that you are seeking to accomplish.

Senator Symington. Thank you very much.

In my part of the country, as automation and the recession itself 

have been reducing to a considerable extent the amount of employment, tha t invariably makes this whole question of what we know is 

good and right a more difficult one for the average man in the street. 

Therefore we are having now a good deal of what you might say 

urban support for a position tha t lias been characteristic, at least in 

some parts of my State for some time, of resistance to this type and 

character of aid unless it can do more for the people here at home.

IM PA CT O F P R IV A T E IN V E S T M E N T ABROAD ON E M PL O Y M E N T AT H O M E

There is one subject which I will not get into this morning which 

I would like to discuss with you when you have some time. It is 

this case of corporations building plants abroad in order to make 

more profits, with the tax benefits incident thereto, and with the 

great resultant danger or characteristic of increased unemployment 

in this country. With all due respect to corporate taxes over here, 

a very large percentage of the total tax figure still comes from indi-
NOMINATIONS 43

viduals, and if this policy continues, I can see where we are going to 

get ourselves into a real problem.

Mr. Ball. I would like to discuss th at with you, Senator.

Senator Symington. 1 noticed in connection with the steel industry the comparative wages, for example, with Japan. I think counting the fringes there it was about 55 cents as against an average over 

here of $2.75, and if you figure the cost of overhead it makes it very 

difficult to compete. But the main aspect of it to me, my main interest this morning, is how we are going to move this merchandise, 

because if we do not, I must say that I do not see any hope for the 

future of the American farmer. And I am very grateful for your saying th at you are interested in this and I look forward to discussing it 

further with you when convenient.

Mr. Ball. Thank you.

Senator Symington. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. Ball, I hope it will not inconvenience you to come back at 2 :30. 

Mr. Ball. I will be very h appy to, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Senator Lausche had to leave.

We will reconvene at 2:30 then.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene 

at 2:30 p.m., the same day.)

A FTE R N O O N S E S S IO N

Present: Senator Fulbright, Mansfield, Long, Gore, Lausche, 

Church, Hickenlooper, Aiken, and Carlson.

Senator Mansfield. The committee will come to order.

Mr. Ball, will you take the chair.

Senator Lausche. Mr. Ball, 1 am directing my questions for the 

moment at the subject of the portfolio of the trust.

STATEMENT OF GEORGE W. BALL, NOMINEE TO BE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ECONOMIC AFFAIRS— Res um ed

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Senator Lausche. Are there in your portfolio common stocks of 

U.S. companies tha t have established branches in foreign countries?

Mr. Ball. As I recall, Senator, there are in the t rust some common 

stocks of companies tha t do have interests abroad. Specifically, I 

know of one of the major oil companies th at has production facilities 

overseas. I don’t know whether it has established branches yet or 

not, but I would want to check the portfolio carefully, sir, before I 

gave you an answer to that because I am no t entirely sure-----

Senator Lausche. You see what I have in mind?

Mr. Ball. Certainly.

A M ER IC A N C O M PA N IE S E ST A B L IS H IN G B R A N C H E S ABROAD

Senator Lausche. The word is current that many U.S. companies 

are establishing branches overseas, especially as pointed out by Mr. 

Carlson about Beechcraft and Cessna believing that they can compete 

in the world markets, and believing that they can manufacture in 

foreign countries, ship to the United States, pay the tariff, and undersell our producers.
44 NOMINATIONS

Mr. Ball. Correct.

Senator Lausche. Now I am looking with alarm upon that trend, 

so my question is directed at whether or not there are in the portfolio 

stocks of companies th at have established branches.

You say tha t you cannot give-----

Mr. Ball. I think the answer is almost certainly yes. Just which 

companies they are I would want to make a check on, but I would be 

reasonably certain tha t in the portfolio there are some companies 

that have established branches overseas.

Now if I may, I would like to address myself just for a moment 

to this question because it is a highly complicated one. My own 

experience has been that many American companies in recent years 

have made direct investments abroad in production sources. They 

have done so more for the reason that they wanted to be able to 

exploit and develop the newly emerging markets, the newly developing mass markets of Europe rather than for any desire to establish 

a source of production which would enable them to reexport to the 

United States.

I think the extent to which there have been actual reexports to the 

United States, except in one or two rather narrow industrial sectors, 

has been rather small.

Now, I do not mean to suggest tha t this may not at some point 

increase or that there may not be other sectors where the companies 

will deem it economically desirable to try to produce overseas. But, 

at the same time, there is a natu ral desire of an American company 

to want to get near the market in which it is going to sell its products. 

This has been a tendency which is not a new one. It is new in the 

sense that the markets are so much more attractive than they were. 

As a consequence in the firms, for example, with which I have had 

professional experience—that have come to my law firm and expressed 

an interest in establishing overseas bases or overseas sources of 

production—very many of them have been at tracted by the existence 

of an overseas market rath er than by any feeling that they could 

necessarily produce more cheaply, or produce a better product. 

Nor tha t there were any real economic advantages other than the 

advantages of being close to the market and being able to style their 

products to suit the requirements of the market and so on.

This isn’t the whole story but it is, I think, an important p art of it.

Senator Lausche. You will agree, however, tha t we have to watch 

tha t carefully because of such a widening in the difference in the cost of 

production so that our producers do not begin to move into foreign 

countries for the purpose of being able to compete even with our own 

manufacturers here at home.

Mr. Ball. I agree with the problem, the existence of the problem.

I would say, Senator, that in my observation, and I think the 

statistics will bear me out, actually the costs of production in the 

United States, for example, compared with Western European 

countries, where a great deal of the new outflow of capital has gone, 

rather than widening, have been narrowing. We have been witnessing 

the phenomenon of both productivity and prices rising higher, rising 

faster in Europe than they have been rising in the United States. 

Now they started from a lower base, this I will agree with.

Senator Lausche. I know th at when the merchant marine law was 

passed in 1936, the difference in the cost of building ships for the high
NOMINATIONS 45

seas, as between the United States and foreign countries, was 32 percent, and we passed the law under which the taxpayers of the United 

States pay the difference in the cost of building, but in no event the 

difference is to exceed 50 percent of the cost of the ship.

The difference in 1930 was 32 percent. It has now risen to 52 

percent, and we had to modify the law in the last session so as to 

authorize the paym ent of more than 50 percent. We lifted the limit 

to 55.

U.S. INVE STMENT ABROAD

Now getting on to another question, we have laws which were 

passed while Western Europe was on its knees, giving tax privileges 

and other privileges to American investors for the purpose of inducing 

them to invest in foreign countries.

Have you given any thought to the wisdom of changing tha t 

inducement which was necessary in 1946 and 1947 but which is of 

doubtful wisdom and validity now?

Mr. Ball. It is my understanding, sir, that this whole question is 

being carefully reviewed by the Treasury D epartment at the moment. 

Certainly this is something which we shall be very much concerned 

to take a look at.

Senator Lausche. Based on your experience, do you know whether 

that inducement operated to influence American manufacturers to 

settle in underdeveloped countries or whether it was used only to 

influence them to settle in the high consumption market that was 

developing in Western Europe9

Mr. Ball. Well, I would suppose tha t to the extent th at it has been 

a factor, and I think that actually it has been more of a marginal 

factor than many people suspect, because I think the big inducement 

has been the coming into being of great new mass markets which 

American industry wants to exploit. But to the extent that i t has been 

a factor, and I will concede th at it has, actually the attractiveness of 

this is normally much greater for the underdeveloped countries, for 

investment in the underdeveloped country than in the developed 

country because the tax differentials are so much greater.

But, nevertheless, it has not proved an adequate incentive to bring 

about very much direct movement of capital into the underdeveloped 

countries, and this whole problem of what kind of an incentive we 

provide to American industry to move into underdeveloped countries 

is what I think that we have continually to examine.

Senator Lausche. Do I understand it to be y our judgment, then, 

that although we have offered special inducements to settle in underdeveloped countries by granting privileges greater than those granted 

when they settled in a developed country, the inducement has not 

operated effectively?

Mr. Ball. I didn’t mean to suggest tha t, sir.

What I was suggesting was that the tax laws and the privilege of 

being able to retain earnings overseas without having to repatriate 

them and subject them to our tax laws has operated as some incentive 

for investment both in underdeveloped and developed areas.

Now in terms of the magnitude of the tax saving, one would expect 

it to be greater for investment in most underdeveloped countries than 

in developed countries because the tax differentials are so much 

greater. But it hasn’t, I think, been an actively effective inducement

64718—61------4
46 NOMINATIONS

with respect to investment in underdeveloped countries, largely 

because the other factors tha t make investment attractive haven’t 

necessarily existed there.

Senator L ausche. What are those other factors?

Mr. Ball. Well, the factors of political stability, the factors of 

having a market at hand, all the factors that enter into an investment 

decision on the part of management.

Senator Lausche. Then you would say tha t the efforts of our 

Government to induce industry, by granting special tax privileges, to 

settle in underdeveloped countries has not been as effective as was 

anticipated?

Mr. Ball. Well, the efforts such as those contemplated by the 

Boggs bill, for example, which would, in its present form, since it 

makes a definite distinction between developed and underdeveloped 

countries provide in quite explicit terms an advantage for investing 

in underdeveloped countries which would not be available for investments in developed countries. I don’t know what the effect of this 

would be. I think it might stimulate substantial investment in 

underdeveloped countries. But this is a matter on which I can’t 

express any expert view.

Senator Lausche. I am just trying to get our fingers on the focal 

point. Th at is, the results obtained through the making of grants 

have not induced industry to settle in the underdeveloped countries.

Mr. B all. Well, certain types of industry, the extractive industries, 

for example.

Senator L ausche. Well, oil has, of course.

Mr. Ball. Th at is right.

Senator Lausche. But th at is understandable. The manufacturing 

industries, in spite of the fact that we have tried to induce them to 

do so, have not gone into the underdeveloped countries.

Mr. Ball. Well, to some extent. It is a relative matter. I mean 

I think it is quite clear that p rivate industry is not going to be able 

to play the full role of developing the underdeveloped countries. 

This is, it seems to me, something that we have to face as one of the 

unpleasant facts of life, because much of the investment that goes 

into the underdeveloped countries is of a kind in which private 

industry cannot have a great interest because it doesn’t return a 

direct and immediate profit.

Senator Lausche. Let us get back to this. You say that they 

have not gone in there because there is not a consuming market?

Mr. Ball. That is right.

Senator L ausche. Not an adequate market.

Th at would mean that whenever you try to induce a business to 

settle in a particular area, the fact that the Government gives an 

inducement does not insure that business will go there if there is not 

a consuming market and if there is not a proximity of raw materials?

Mr. Ball. Well, I would think this depends, of course, on the type 

of business enterprise that is involved.

Senator L ausche. Do you see what I have in mind? I am trying 

to point out that when this country attempts to induce industry to 

settle in the mountains of Pennsylvania, the fact that it gives them 

an inducement will not insure that they will go there, if they are 

removed from the consuming market.

Mr. Ball. I think this may very well be the case for many types 

of industrial production.
NOMINATIONS 47

Of course, there are certain other types where the availability of a 

labor supply or the availability of raw materials or the availability 

of energy or the availability of water power or whatever may be the 

situation—that these are inducements which will att rac t industry 

and industrial development, granted some provision of public funds 

to create the basic conditions in which industry can operate.

Tha t means the infrastructure.

T H E U .S . ECONOM Y

Senator Lausche. Now, I understand that you are convinced that 

our country cannot live in what you would call a self-contained 

economy.

Mr. Ball. We cannot flourish, Senator, in what is called a selfcontained economy.

Senator L ausche. Th at is, we simply cannot do it. We produce 

too much and, in order to keep our workers occupied and our businesses alive, we have to have world markets.

Mr. Ball. I think tha t is essential to real prosperity; yes, sir.

Senator Lausche. And to have world markets, we cannot have a 

one-way street. We have to buy if we expect to sell?

Mr. Ball. Tha t is right, sir.

B A L A N C E -O F -P A Y M E N T S PR O B L E M

Senator Lausche. Directing your attention to the outflow of gold, 

to what exten t do you feel tha t we ought to allow that subject to 

influence us to lift the tariffs or to reduce the quotas that have been 

allocated to countries?

Mr. Ball. There are two ways in which we can solve the gold 

problem, the balance-of-payments problem, Senator, in my opinion:

One of them is by pursuing restrictionist methods which might mean 

protection of American industry and putting tight restrictions on the 

export of capital, both short term and long term.

Another is by expansionist methods, which means the development 

of our industrial power, the promotion of American exports, the finding 

of new* markets overseas, the raising of the level of international trade 

generally.

That is the course which, it seems to me, is the course that we ought 

to follow in this mid-20th century. It is the course which, it seems 

to me, is the one that is most likely to bring about the strong Western 

World and the prosperous Western society which should be an 

objective of ours.

allies’ efforts to aid underdeveloped areas

Senator Lausche. I subscribe rather substantially to what you 

have said but I want to enumerate certain things: One, what about 

persuading the other resurgent European countries, especially in 

Western Europe, to pay more of the cost of mutual defense and the 

cost of aiding undeveloped countries?

Mr. Ball. Senator, I believe very strongly tha t one of the first 

tasks of the new administration must be, through discussion and negotiation with the other industrialized nations of the wrorld, to bring 

about for certain of them a much higher level of capital exports and
48 NOMINATIONS

a much greater sharing of the burden for the underdeveloped countries 

and the costs of defense. I agree with that wholeheartedly.

REM OVAL OF FO R E IG N T R A D E R E S T R IC T IO N S

Senator Lausche. Now, two, how about inducing the foreign 

countries of the world to relax their barriers against U.S. exports of 

products?

Mr. Ball. This, I agree, also is a prime objective which we should 

pursue.

Senator L ausche. This morning, however, you stated that if we 

restrict imports, we will suffer retaliatory action on the part of those 

other countries, bringing about a restricting of the shipment of our 

goods into their lands.

Mr. Ball. I think tha t, to a very large extent, the United States 

sets the tone and pattern for trade in the free world.

Senator Lausche. Right.

PR O M O TIO N O F E X PA N D E D U .S . E X PO R T S

Now, No. 3. How about our entering into an intensive campaign 

to promote the exportation of our services and goods?

Mr. Ball. I am strongly in favor of that, sir.

Senator Lausche. And you thin k tha t is a field in which we can 

improve our international balances?

Mr. Ball. I think that there is much tha t can be done along th at 

line, not only through an improvement in the trade information, 

which is provided to our manufacturers, but in working with the 

manufacturers in the improvement of quality controls on exported 

products and the improvement of the kind of services they provide, 

presumably in the improvement of the kind of credits which they are 

able to extend.

I th ink there is a great deal that can be done, Senator.

U .S . IN D U ST R Y SH OULD A V OID P R IC IN G IT S E L F OUT O F W ORLD M A RK ET

Senator Lausche. Fourth, can we induce manufacturers and labor 

leaders to recognize the danger of pricing ourselves out of the world 

markets?

Mr. Ball. I am wholly in accord with the necessity for us to find 

ways and means of bringing about some restraint in the wage-cost 

spiral.

Now, just how this is to be done is something which I think-----

Senator Lausche. It is a most delicate subject.

Mr. Ball. It is an extremely delicate subject.

Senator Lausche. But it is one which we have to face realistically, 

I assume.

reduction of federal debt

Fifth, should we not quit deficit operations and reduce the debt 

of the Federal Government, thus restoring a confidence in our paper 

currency?

Mr. Ball. Well, I would say that the answer is a complicated one 

because it involves a great many factors.
NOMINATIONS 49

It depends on what kind of anticyclical, antirecession devices the 

Government may pursue. The effect on the balance of payments is 

only one of a great number of considerations which we have to take a 

look at.

F E D E R A L R E S E R V E R E Q U IR E M E N T S

Senator Lausche. I have read some articles, and, to my surprise, 

some by men of supposed ability in economics and business who recommend tha t the Federal Reserve law should be changed so as to remove the requirement which now demands tha t of the total amount 

of deposits in the Federal Reserve and the total amount of notes 

issued, one-quarter be supported by gold.

Have you given th at thought any consideration?

Mr. Ball. Y es.

I do not think this is a question on which I should express an opinion 

here, Senator. This is an extremely sensitive matter, and it would involve a Government decision which the Treasury and other departments would have to make.

M O N ETA R Y P O L IC IE S O F O T H E R N A T IO N S

Senator Lausche. I suppose tha t in your assignment you will be 

concerned about the monetary policies of the different nations of the 

world and that you would expect that they would have rather sound 

support of their paper currencies; is that correct?

Mr. B all. Well, the question of the monetary policies of the foreign 

governments is to a much greater extent the responsibility of Secretary 

Dillon than it is the responsibility of the S tate Department.

However, certainly we have an interest in the monetary and fiscal 

policies pursued by the other major nations of the world.

Senator Lausche. The reason I ask tha t question is tha t you are 

to be the adviser on economics in our foreign relations, and I think 

the ma tter of the stability of currency in the other nations of the 

world is a very vital aspect of that du ty.

Mr. Ball. I quite agree with you, sir.

Senator L ausche. Yes.

federal reserve requirements

Now, the law on what amount of gold should be available to support 

certain things done b y the Federal Reserve is as follows:

Under the law of the United States the Government is required to have on 

hand gold equal to one-fourth (a) of the combined amount of paper currency issued 

by the Federal Reserve bank, and (b) of deposits t ha t member banks keep in the 

Federal Reserve.

And you do not feel th at you ought to express an opinion on whether 

tha t ought to be changed or not?

Mr. B all. No.

I think tha t this would be a ma tter on which Secretary Dillon 

should more properly express a view.

Senator L ausche. I think tha t is all, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. Are there any other questions of this witness?

Senator Church?
50 NOMINATIONS

D E T E R M IN IN G F O R E IG N AID P R IO R IT IE S

Senator Church. Mr. Ball, in your position as Under Secretary 

of State for Economic Affairs, what role do you intend to exercise in 

determining the scope of our economic aid program as between 

countries receiving aid abroad?

Mr. Ball. Well, my role, Senator, would be a role of general overseeing of the foreign assistance programs, the mutual security 

programs, and, certainly, I also have the responsibility to see that 

proper foreign policy guidance is given to this program.

Senator Church. In making allocations as between countries, 

would you feel tha t it would be your responsibility to exercise the 

final judgment and not tha t of the ICA?

Mr. Ball. I should sav that I would have the responsibility for the 

final judgment tha t was made, and tha t certainly 1 would have the 

responsibility for seeing to it tha t tha t judgment was consonant 

with the foreign policy interests of the United States.

CO R RELA TIN G ECONOM IC AID W IT H U .S . O B JE C T IV E S AB ROAD

Senator Church. You have made a very close study, I know, of 

American foreign policies with special emphasis upon the economic 

field.

Is it your feeling tha t our economic aid program has, in the past, 

been correlated closely enough with our national purposes, our national objectives abroad?

Mr. Ball. This is a question which we are presently engaged in 

examining carefully, Senator. I think tha t it is quite likely tha t we 

will come to the conclusion, as a result of the investigation we are 

now making, that because of the structural arrangements for providing 

assistance, that there have been instances where we have not utilized 

our assistance as carefully as possible in relation to the achievement 

of our foreign policy objectives. I would certainly hope that we can 

improve that, sir.

I do not mean to exaggerate the extent of tha t deficiency and I am 

not at all sure as to the extent of it.

Senator Church. I have had strong misgivings myself on this 

matter.

Countries I have visited abroad tha t are receiving very large 

amounts of foreign aid seem by any standard less important to our 

own national interests than others tha t are receiving scant aid and 

attention.

But what concerns me even more is to go to countries where I am 

told tha t there is a strong disagreement between the Ambassador and 

the State Department representatives and those representing the ICA 

as to what the size and scope of American aid should be. Then to 

be told tha t the ICA recommendations are being implemented seems 

to me to be a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Mr. Ball. Well, I hope we can show great improvement in the 

kind of coordination of the aid activities, and, as I said this morning, 

we are presently engaged in studying the whole organizational structure of mutual assistance, and I hope that, when we come up before 

the committee within a short time, we can have some very specific 

recommendations to make along this line.
NOMINATIONS 51

Senator Church. I would certainly hope so, too. I think it would 

be a most productive line of inquiry for you to make.

BU R EA U C R A C Y AND T H E MUTU AL SEC U R IT Y PR OGRAM

Another thing tha t has disturbed me concerning our aid program— 

and this matter comes up again and again abroad—is the common 

complaint tha t our aid program has become so bogged down in overlapping layers of bureaucracy tha t the decisionmaking process has 

almost come to a standstill. It is alleged tha t the period of delay 

involved from the time tha t a given proposal is made to the time 

that tha t proposal is approved and then finally implemented is such 

as to largely frustrate the purposes of undertaking the program in the 

first place.

The feeling that I have encountered seems to be tha t most of this 

problem of bureaucracy has its locus right here in Washington.

I refer, for example, to the beliefs of men whose judgment I trust, 

one of whom comes to mind now who was for a long period of time 

associated with the Marshall plan. This man said to me recently, 

when I met him in Africa, tha t in his experience the Marshall plan 

was most effective in its first year of operation; tha t in its second year 

it was less effective; and that in its third year it was least effective, 

and tha t this occurred almost in direct relationship to the numbeT 

of people who were engaged to administer it. He also said tha t our 

foreign aid program in Africa would be twice as effective if we operated 

it with half as many people.

Now, I really think this is a very, very serious problem and I do 

not know how in the world you can come to grips with it because 

you are up against Parkinson’s law and all of the inertia that come 

with entrenched bureaucracy.

But the program has been going along for quite a while and it has 

all these barnacles upon it. I think some drastic surgery is going to be 

necessary if we are to improve the administration and efficiency of 

this program.

Mr. Ball. Well, that is a very perceptive and provocative suggestion, Senator, and we will certainly take it into account in the study 

we are making.

I agree that it is very desirable tha t the decisionmaking process 

be speeded up because time is very often as important as substance 

in these operations.

Senator Church. I wish you well in that endeavor.

Mr. Ball. Thank you, Senator.

Senator Church. I really think it has priority.

Now I have one other question. I am not going to ask you many 

more because you have been here a long time answering questions 

and I think you have done exceedingly well with the kind of answers 

you have given us.

Mr. Ball. Thank you.

B U IL D IN G ECO N O M IC IN F R A S T R U C T U R E IN U N D E R D E V E L O PE D 

C O U N T R IE S

Senator Church. As I understand our aid program and the 

direction of most of the multilateral efforts in the field of foreign 

aid, great emphasis has been placed upon building what you have 

called the economic infrastructure in underdeveloped countries.
52 NOMINATIONS

I think tha t this is necessary and important.

But when you undertake to build a skeleton in any underdeveloped 

country upon which the economic flesh will then grow, you are startin g 

what is a long-range program, the benefits of which may not come 

down to the people for a long period of time.

Mr. Ball. That is right.

Senator Church. Moreover, it is possible to supply large quantities 

of money to build the skeleton and then never see the benefits equitably distributed among the people.

This situation, I think, occurred in Cuba where the amount of 

American investment was very large indeed, but where the failure 

to effect liberal political and economic reforms meant tha t the great 

mass of the Cuban people remained exceedingly poor, while a few 

grew very rich, the result being that communism came to a country 

which had a higher per capita income than any country in Latin 

America, save Venezuela and Brazil.

So, clearly, if our economic aid program is confined to this kind of 

approach, we may in the end see it fail, and communism conquer.

Therefore, I am very much interested in proposals tha t have been 

made in recent months to revise our economic program in Latin 

America by adding additional money which will be earmarked for 

special programs of social reform, housing programs, programs to 

provide water supplies and hospitals, land reform programs, perhaps 

even tax reform programs.

What do you think of these new proposals, and what importance 

do you attach to them? They certainly represent a new frontier— 

if I may use the term—in our general effort in this field.

Mr. Ball. I agree with you, Senator, I think it is extremely important tha t much more emphasis be put on this whole question of 

what one might call nation building; help the countries to provide 

the institutions which make possible growth and healthy development 

of political life and social life, as well as economic life, providing 

funds on an incentive basis where the things have to be done which 

will insure an equitable distribution of benefits and not merely the 

benefit of a relatively small handful of the very rich.

We will have an opportunity to discuss this with the committee 

when we come up here very soon with regard to the implementation 

of the Bogota program, as you know.

Senator C hurch. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And I think this is a very important step in this direction.

M U L T IL A T E R A L AI D

Senator Church. Let me just say in tha t connection—we will 

pursue it further when you come up with tha t particular proposal—- 

tha t in your planning for it, it seems to me that the desirability of the 

multilateral approach is nowhere more evident th an where the purpose 

of the program is to make money available for social advancement 

tha t is connected with internal reform.

Mr. Ball. Right.

Senator Church. It seems to me tha t this is so because in this 

very sensitive area a purely bilateral atte mpt on the part of the 

United States might be regarded as an atte mpt to interfere with the 

sovereign rights of other countries, whereas a joint effort would be 

regarded as acceptable.
NOMINATIONS 53

And I think tha t this whole program is likely to flounder and fail 

unless it is administered in a way tha t will prove acceptable to the 

Latin American countries.

I am very doubtful here tha t any method will be successful other 

than a multilateral method, and the proposals of the last administration to do this by attaching a fund to the In ter-American Development Bank located here in Washington and operated as a kind of 

sideline are, to my mind, unrealistic.

So I hope tha t attention will be given to this aspect of the problem 

before you come up with your proposal, and I would appreciate such 

attention as you can give it, sir.

Mr. Ball. We will carefully consider it, Senator.

Senator Church. Fine.

I want to say again that I have been very much impressed by the 

answers you have given here today and I want to tell you that I will 

be very happy to pledge my vote for your confirmation, and 1 wish 

you well.

Mr. Ball. Thank you, Senator, very much.

The Chairman. Any other questions?

Do you have anything further you would like to add, Mr. Ball?

Mr. Ball. No, Senator. I have said far more than I intended to.

The Chairman. I hope you do not live to regret most of it.

Thank you very much, Mr. Ball. We will look forward to seeing 

you later on.

The next witness is Mr. Roger W. Jones who has distinguished 

himself as a career public servant with almost 30 years in the Federal 

Government service. Most recently, he has served as Chairman of 

the Civil Service Commission.

(Mr. Jones’ biographical sketch follows:)

Roger W. J ones

Form er position: Chairman, Civil Service Commission, Washington, D.C. 

Proposed position: Deputy Under Secretary of Sta te for Adm inistration.

Born: New Hartford, Conn., Feb ruary 3, 1908.

Education : A.B., Cornell University, 1928: M.A., Columbia, 1931.

Experience:

Non-Government:

1928- 29: Ins tructo r, Coral Gables Military Academy.

1929- 31: Clerk, assista nt manager, Doubleday Doran Book Shops, 

New York, N.Y.

1932- 33: Tutor.

Government:

1933- 39: Clerk, ass ista nt executive officer, Centra l Statistical Board, 

Washington.

1939-42: Adm inistrative officer, U.S. Bureau of the Budget.

1945-48: Successively Budget Exam iner, Assistant to Dire ctor, Deputy Assistan t Director, Assistant Director for legislative reference, 

and Assistant Director.

1958-59: Deputy Director.

1959 to present: Chairman, U.S. Civil Service Commission; vice 

president, United Givers Fun d, Washington and Washington Institu te Men tal Hygiene; Director, War Agencies Employees 

Protective Association.
54 NOMINATIONS

Military : 1942-45: Served from ca ptain to colonel, AUS; decorated Legion 

of Merit, Order, British Empire.

Career service award, National Civil Service League; President’s award 

for distinguished Federal civilian service.

Office: Department of State, Washington, D.C,

Home: 3912 Leland Street, Chevy Chase, Md.

Legal residence: Connecticut.

STATEMENT OF ROGER W. JONES, NOMINEE TO BE DEPUTY 

UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ADM INISTRATION

The Chairman. Mr. Jones, do you have a statement you would 

care to make to the committee?

BACKGRO UND OF N O M IN E E

Mr. J ones. I have no formal statement, Mr. Chairman. I would 

be glad to expand slightly, if I may, upon the personal information 

about me which is before the committee.

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. J ones. As the chairman has indicated, I have been in Government service for—I am now in my 28th year.

In this course, I have come up through the ranks, very largely on 

the staff side, most of my service to the present time having been in 

the Bureau of the Budget.

After 6 years with the Central Statistical Board, which was consolidated into the Bureau of the Budget in 1939, I served there as the 

Bureau’s administrative officer, then went into uniform during the 

war, having been called up as a Reserve officer.

I went back to the Bureau after the war to help in the process of 

liquidation of war agencies, became Bureau liaison officer with the 

80th Congress, thereafter served as Deputy Director of the Office of 

Legislative Reference, and as Assistant Director for Legislative Reference until 1958, when I became a statutory Assistant Director of the 

Bureau before President Eisenhower nominated me to the Civil 

Service Commission as its chairman.

I went to the Civil Service Commission on March 9, 1959, and still 

occupy tha t post, pending action of the Senate upon my nomination 

to be Deputy Under Secretary of State for Administration.

administrative experience

In the course of this period of service in the Federal Government, 

my attention has been given very largely to administrative matters, 

organization, legislation, budget, personnel, and related affairs, and 

I think tha t it was on the basis of this experience and training with 

the two central staff agencies of the President tha t led to President 

Kennedy’s nomination of me for the post on which you are questioning me today, sir.

K N O W L ED G E O F F O R E IG N SE R V IC E

The Chairman. Mr. Jones, I think your predecessor in this position was a Foreign Service officer, and I believe most of your predecessors have been career Foreign Service officers.

Do you anticipate any difficulty in your relations with the Foreign 

Service because you are coming from the outside?
NOMINATIONS 55

Mr. J ones. I do not, sir.

1 have known Foreign Service well and intimately for a good 

many years.

I know a good many officers of the Foreign Service, and I think I 

understand their problems, even though I have not served as a Foreign 

Service officer myself. I have seen some of their activities here in 

Washington. I have seen some of their activities in the field.

I understand, I believe, the basic legislation under which they 

operate, and I think I know something about the precedents of past 

years and the problems which face the Foreign Service at the present 

time as a result of a good many things that have happened in this 

sudden catapulting of the United States into a position of world 

prominence which took place so rapidly during and after World 

War II.

R E PO R T O F C IV IL S E R V IC E C O M M IS SIO N ON STA T E D E PA R T M E N T 

A D M IN IS T R A T IO N

The Chairman. Are you familiar with the report of the Civil Service 

Commission of last February on the management of the Dep artm ent 

of State?

Mr. J ones. Yes, I am, sir.

That report was prepared by the Bureau of Inspection and Classification Audit of the Civil Service Commission. It was the subject 

of consultation at the top level of the State Department when Mr. 

Herter was Secretary.

There has been a good deal of followup conversation since our initial 

meeting with Secretary Herter last summer when the report was first 

beginning to take form.

A good part of the repo rt was prepared in cooperation and in collaboration with departmental personnel, and T am relatively well 

acquainted with the steps that have been taken in the D epartment to 

deal with the problems raised by the report, although I do not have 

the intimacy of knowledge about those steps that I hope to have in 

the relatively near future.

SU M M ARY O F C IV IL SE R V IC E CO M M IS SIO N R E PO R T

The Chairman. Would it take you very long to summarize as 

briefly as possible a few of the high points of th at report?

Mr. Ball. I would be glad to do that , sir.

The report of the Civil Service Commission’s inspection of the 

State Departm ent was prim arily concerned, of course, with personnel 

matters and it suggested tha t the Departm ent take certain actions to 

improve the management of its personnel.

R E V IE W O F O F F IC E R P O S IT IO N S IN STA T E D E PA R T M E N T

These are in major outline, first, to fill officer positions in Washington with persons who are fully qualified to perform the entire scope 

of the job within a reasonable period of time and with a minimum of 

orientation.

We made several subsuggestions under tha t chief reco

First, tha t we review, or, rather, that the Departm 

individual officer positions in Washington in the grades GS-9 and

; department

endation: 

review the E vA
56 NOMINATIONS

above, or their equivalent, and determine on the basis of requirements 

those positions for which there is an overriding need for continuity 

and a high degree of specialization, and those positions in which, 

overseas experience is necessary for the most successful performance 

of the position.

D E SIG N A T IN G C IV IL S E R V IC E AND F O R E IG N SE R V IC E P O S IT IO N S

Second, to delineate among the positions requiring continuity and 

a high degree of specialization the career opportunities available to 

qualified civil service officers as opposed to Foreign Service officers.

Third, to designate to be filled by the Foreign Service officers 

those positions for which the Foreign Service provides qualified 

personnel, and which afford interchangeability between the United 

States and abroad in the same or in closely related fields of activity.

The second is a technical problem largely concerned with carrying 

out a somewhat more extensive and somewhat sounder position classification program with respect to the civil service jobs in the Department in Washington, and to do this we suggested tha t the Department 

should examine the feasibility of having the Assistant Secretaries of 

the various bureaus and their executive directors become more 

personally acquainted with the rather strict statutory requirements 

for describing and classifying positions tha t are laid down by the 

Classification Act and the amendments to that act which have been 

enacted in recent years.

We suggested also that they should investigate the possibility of 

having more supervisory training particularly with responsibility for 

training in the actual detailed work of position classification.

We also discussed with them the possibility of discontinuing a 

technical process of moving jobs around somewhat by unfunding 

positions, and in this process of detailing people for lengthy periods 

without regard to the classification levels tha t had hitherto been 

established.

The final suggestion on this technical side was to maintain a periodic 

classification survey program in which the Civil Service Commission 

could cooperate.

O TH ER RECO M M EN D A TIO N S OF C IV IL SE R V IC E CO M M IS SI O N

The third major recommendation was for the development and 

maintenance of a position control system to provide the Department 

with accurate and current information for planning and programing 

personnel operations to meet the departmental needs.

The fourth and final major recommendation was to staff personnel 

positions tliroughout the agency with persons who have had rather 

extensive training and background in personnel operations.

This, of course, would apply primarily to positions in the Office of 

Personnel of the Department, and to some of the executive staffs 

charged with administrative responsibilities for managing personnel 

in the bureau.

Those are the major recommendations of that report, Senator 

Fulbright, and, as I indicated a moment ago, I believe th at I will know 

very soon if the Senate confirms me for the position to which I have 

been nominated, just how far and how fast it is possible to move on
NOMINATIONS 57

these recommendations and whether they are, in the light of all circumstances and factors, sound recommendations.

I think it is perhaps a strange quirk of fate th at the head of the agency 

which prepared this report should now possibly be going to a position 

to sit in judgment on how much of it can be carried out, but this kind 

of thing happens in Government, and I am prepare ! to take it up.

I am not going over there with any preconceived notions as to 

whether the report is good, bad, or indifferent. Al! I can say is th at it 

was an honest report, honestly prepared by competent people, and it 

has been received as such by the Department.

I believe, also, sir, tha t it has been made available to your staff 

for study and both at the Civil Service Commission and at the Department we will be glad to go into any matters which the staff may have 

called to your attention and on which the committee wants more 

information.

RO TA TIO N O F FO R E IG N S E R V IC E P E R S O N N E L

The Chairman. This committee has been interested in this subject; 

you have already mentioned the question of continuity and specialization in certain activities.

There is one criticism—I will not say that the committee is unanimous on it, nor do I know tha t we passed on it in tha t fashion, but 

we have discussed it and speaking for myself, it seems to me that a 

number of the activities in the State D epartmen t have been designated 

as positions requiring Foreign Service officers, when civil service 

officers might well have provided better continuity.

There is too much shifting around of personnel in such activities 

as economic affairs or the exchange program. They are fairly specialized, and until they become thoroughly familiar with it they are 

not of too much use. There is too much change.

You were here this morning when I mentioned the question of the 

rapid turnover of chiefs of missions. Last year, we asked your 

predecessor, Mr. Henderson, to give us a report on this. The turnover 

averages less than 2 years. This still seems to me to be unusually 

short.

I do not know of any business that rotates the heads of its departments with such ra pidity, that is, any business which stays in business 

and is efficient.

Do you have any thoughts about that?

Mr. J ones. None which are final except to say this: tha t from my 

own observation of the Federal Government now for better than 

a quarter of a century, this has become an increasingly difficult 

problem with respect to overseas responsibilities, not only in the 

Department of State but in the other departments which have 

overseas personnel.

Something of the same kind of thing has taken place with respect 

to interchanges of personnel within the structure here in the continental United States. In general, while of course the exigencies and 

demands of the service have to be taken fully into account, I think, and 

I must emphasize to say I think, I do not have enough experience 

yet to know, I think I agree with the chairman tha t we should consider 

lengthening tours of duty in most posts.
58 NOMINATIONS

There are some posts in which obviously it doesn’t make any sense to 

keep a man there at rathe r considerable risk to his health or the health 

of his family, but these posts are becoming fewer rathe r than greater 

as time moves on and as health measures improve and as the kinds 

of creature comforts tha t we can take in with us make living more 

healthful. But certainly I, myself, have done some travel, though 

I have not done a great deal of traveling in Government service 

but I have been through the Far East on a couple of occasions and 

there are some posts on which I would feel very definitely that for 

a man to stay more than 2 years would be asking too much.

The Chairman. Those are hardship posts?

Mr. J ones. Those are real hardship posts.

The Chairman. Well, we certainly would make allowances for that. 

But generally these rapid changes have taken place in all levels, not 

just in hardship posts.

Mr. J ones That is correct.

Now the reverse side of tha t coin, which I think should be mentioned, 

has been the fact that as our world responsibilities have increased 

of course the Foreign Service has increased in size with it; but, there 

have been very considerable needs at times for rapid sliifts in order 

to get men who have qualifications available to do the same kind 

of a job to lay the groundwork for a continuing job by a fairly rapid 

movement of them from one post to another.

The Chairman. Well, I do not want to pin you down and to have 

you go into all these details. I want to make the point tha t I think 

it is an important matter and I hope you will be interested in it.

ADVAN TA G ES OF S PE C IA L IZ A T IO N AND C O N T IN U IT Y

In fact, judging from your report, I think you have already shown 

an interest in the continuity of specialization and tha t you will take 

it very seriously.

Mr. J ones. I am, deeply.

The C hairman. It has often been said tha t we might well consider 

having in these major departments at least one permanent Under 

Secretary, if only to give continuity. Has that ever been an object 

of your study?

Mr. J ones. I have studied this as kind of an abstract problem in 

political science as well as an administrative problem, Senator Ful ­

bright, and I think it has a great deal more to commend it in a p arliamentary system where government can and often does fall just on 

an overnight basis and where the Cabinet ministers are primarily 

officers of the legislative branch as well as having administrative responsibilities. I think it adapts itself rather better there than it does 

in our kind of system.

But we have brought some degree of continuity. We now have a 

structure within the Federal Government of permanent administrative assistant secretaries to keep the mechanics of the place run ­

ning from year to year and from one administration to the next, and 

on the whole I think it has worked out fairly well.

Whether we should, under our concept of change in political control 

at fixed intervals governed by elections, have policy officers who are 

permanent, who are sort of a super-civil service, if you want to call 

them that, I am not entirely sure. This might water down somewhat
NOMINATIONS 59

our sense of political responsibility which sometimes grows a little 

thin even under our present system.

The Chairman. Well, we do not depa rt entirely from this concept 

if you consider the present administration. There are several persons 

still around who have familiar faces, are there not?

Mr. J ones. Yes.

The Chairman. So it is not a complete turnover.

Mr. J ones. I am afraid mine is one of them.

P R E V IO U S E X P E R IE N C E IN T H E B U R E A U O F T H E B U D G ET

The Chairman. Yours is one of them. I approve of having somebody in this position who has some experience. You have had experience in the Budget Bureau, have you not?

Mr. J ones. Yes, sir; I was there for 20 years.

The Chairman. You did not leave it after 2 years. Are there 

many people of great responsibility in the Bureau of the Budget who 

have only been there for 2 years?

Mr. J ones. No, there has been some change in the top command 

but the career assistant directors have had a rather substantial span 

of service and the division chiefs have most of them been there for a 

good many years.

The Chairman. That is an experience I know you will find extremely useful in your present position.

B U D G ET B U R E A U A T T IT U D E S TO W A RD A P P R O P R IA T IO N S FO R T H E 

D E PA R T M E N T O F STA T E

It has been alleged, you know, that the S tate Department has been 

too subservient to the Budget Bureau on the one hand and to the 

House Appropriations Committee on the other, even in their requests 

for appropriations. Have you ever heard tha t criticism?

Mr. J ones. I have heard this remark, sir, yes.

The C hairman. Do you think it is true?

I do not want to press you.

Mr. J ones. No, you are not pressing me, sir.

What I was trying to do was to get my thoughts into focus so that 

I won’t launch into a philosophical dissertation on the subject of 

budget philosophy here. But let me answer it very briefly this way, 

by saying that I don’t believe the conduct of foreign affairs, being as 

closely tied to the President as it is, can be divorced from the process— 

which has increasingly become the habit of Presidents in the last 20 

years at least of establishing overall budget ceilings within which the 

Budget Director must operate with the departments.

I also have the very firmest respect for the type of searching review 

that is given to departmental budgets through the appropriation 

process in the two Houses of Congress. These, as the committee 

knows, usually sta rt in th e House, and there is an old saying that the 

House always goes farther than it should and then it is up to the 

Senate in conference to straighten the situation out.

I think this is really a vast oversimplification of what is a most 

essential part of our democratic process, the full review and the 

acceptance or nonacceptance of the adequacy of the reports of stewardship which are expressed primarily through the budget process and
60 NOMINATIONS

through the delineation of programs spelled out in terms of dollars 

and manpower, and I would not change that by any substantia l way.

I would like to change the timing of the budget a little bit at times, 

but on the whole I think it is an amazingly good process that is good 

for America and works well.

PR O PO SE D FO R E IG N S E R V IC E AC ADE M Y

The Chairman. Mr. Jones, from time to time bills are introduced 

and suggestions made that we should establish a Foreign Service 

Academy either at the undergraduate or graduate level. Do you 

have any views about the wisdom of this proposal?

Mr. J ones. Yes, sir; I do and I am one of those who is opposed to 

this move.

I can see a very much b ette r case for the service academies for the 

training of military officers, Army, Navy, Air, Coast Guard, merchant 

marine, where there is a lifelong specialization and where you can 

accomplish the necessary technical education within the confines of 

a single institution, but I think we would lose a great deal of the 

touch with the American educational system, with the American 

aspects of varying degrees of sociological and economic and other 

kinds of culture, if we attempted to force everyone through the one 

funnel of a Foreign Service Academy.

Now, I think there is a place for this sort of training later on in a 

person’s career, but basically I am convinced tha t we will get better 

Americans and a better trained Foreign Service Corps if we depend 

on our educational system to produce it from the hundreds of colleges 

and universities spread across the country than if we have a single 

academy.

IM PR O V IN G T H E Q U A L IT Y OF G O V E R N M EN T P E R S O N N E L

The Chairman. Have you given much thought to possible ways to 

improve the quality of our Foreign Service and its personnel?

Do you have any suggestions?

Mr. J ones. Not entirely limited to a focus on Foreign Service 

personnel.

I have been concerned for a good many years with the problem of 

improving the quality of Government personnel generally. I think 

I have thought through reasonably well in my own mind what you 

might call a fourfold kind of program to do that, and I think it was 

equally applicable to the Foreign Service as it is to the civil service.

The first is to maintain as broad a base of recruitment as we can 

by positive recruiting efforts with the colleges and universities and 

with the high schools for the kinds of jobs where you don’t require a 

college education, and to have this recruiting done by responsible 

levels of each one of our departments.

I think that if the vice president of an important industrial firm 

finds it very much to the benefit of his firm for him to do personal 

recruiting in the colleges and universities on recruiting trips, that we 

could apply the same standa rd of conduct at times for Cabinet and 

sub-Cabinet officers and have them get o ut and help sell the story of 

the opportunities tha t exist.

Second, I think we can improve our examining techniques. They 

have lagged somewhat in the civil service, and while I am not entirely 

sure that they have lagged in the Foreign Service, neither am I
NOMINATIONS 61

certain tha t they are completely up to date. Improvement in examining techniques would give us a little bit better degree of quality 

control in the initial stages.

Third, I think we should do career planning of these young men 

and women when we first get them. We should find out what their 

own hopes and dreams and aspirations are, and that we should work 

with them straight through the assumption of perhaps a 30-year 

career in the Federal Government, trying to make the most of what 

they themselves want to do by giving them adequate training, which 

is the fourth point. Adequate training would include a continuous 

process of inservice training which is not a hit-or-miss proposition 

but which definitely picks up a man at given intervals in the course 

of his career and either gives him refresher work or gives him the 

training necessary to take on more advanced responsibilities.

The Chairman. It sounds as though you have given a great deal 

of thought to this matter.

Am I to conclude from this tha t you favor well-trained professional 

career men to occupy most of these positions?

Mr. J ones. I do, sir, yes.

R E P R E S E N T A T IO N A LLO W A N C ES

The Chairman. One last question. You are familiar with the 

problem of representation allowances. I am sure you have probably 

dealt with it in the Budget Bureau. Do you have any comment to 

make on either the present system or the proposal for a contingency 

fund for the Secretary to be allocated in accordance with the demands 

of specific posts9

Mr. J ones. I very much favor the latter course of action, Mr. 

Chairman.

I believe that it is really contrary to the basic democratic philosophy 

of this Nation of ours to expect tha t any of our major posts should 

have to be filled by men who can afford to pick up the extra cost 

lrom their own pocket. Now, I am not talking about extraordinary 

social activity which a man may wish to indulge in if he has the means. 

1 am talking about the kinds of things tha t many of the other nations 

of the world just take for granted as a proper governmental expense 

to maintain their missions in accordance with the dignity of their 

country and on a scale which makes them have maximum effectiveness 

in maintaining their contacts with the important leaders of the country, not only the political leaders but the business leaders, the educational leader, the clergy, and everyone else. And this does take 

money ol the sort tha t very few Government people themselves, 

career Government people, can possibly afford to pay out of their 

own pockets.

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Jones.

Senator Gore, do you wish to ask questions?

Senator Gore. I pass.

The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper.

mr. jones’ experience

Senator Hickenlooper. Mr. Jones, I want to say tha t I think you 

bring to this office an extra amount of background experience and 

apparently a great amount of thought—preliminary thought—and I 

am very encouraged. Certainly you have had some varied experience,

64718— 61----- 5
62 NOMINATIONS

including a great deal in the fields in which you have already operated 

in Government. And since you will be working with personnel, 

budgets, and things of t hat kind, I think your whole experience will 

probably contribute greatly to the success of your operation.

SC O PE OF ST ATE D E PA RTM EN T O PER A TIO N S IN T H E FIE L D

Have you given any thought to the matter of whether the State 

Department and its international activities should be an operating 

agency or whether it should confine itself to diplomatic and representation activities of one kind or another, and commercial activities 

such as consular service?

Mr. J ones. May I ask you to expand your question by a little bit 

more explanation, Senator Hickenlooper?

What do you mean by “program agency?”

Senator Hickenlooper. I said “operating agency.”

Mr. J ones. Should the ambassador take charge of all of the 

activities of our country; is tha t what you are getting at, sir?

Senator Hickenlooper. Not necessarily the ambassador. But 

should the State Department continue to operate in the field various 

functional duties involving programs such as technical cooperation, 

economic aid, information, and similar programs, which are in many 

ways outside of the traditional or accepted diplomatic or Foreign 

Service activities?

Mr. J ones. To this extent. I hope I am being responsive to your 

question, sir. To this extent, I think t hat they should.

Senator Hickenlooper. Should what?

Mr. J ones. I think tha t the ambassador, the head of our mission 

in any country, should be an executive as well as an observer. I think 

he should have the responsibility for, to use a colloquialism, riding 

herd on all of our programs tha t are operative in tha t particular 

country and he should know about them and he should be in a position to report upon them, their successes as well as their failures, and 

to make policy recommendations with respect to them as he sees it 

in the local setting.

This does not necessarily mean, sir, that I believe the State Department should have all of these programs rolled into it for central 

direction from Washington. I have no fixed view on that, but I do 

have a fairly fixed view th at the Ambassador as the chief representative of the President of the United States is attached to the Chief 

Executive by a very direct line and tha t he has to share the executive 

responsibility for everything tha t goes on in the given country.

ambassador’s role in the field

Senator Hickenlooper. Well, I have no quarrel with the general 

philosophy that we can only have one Ambassador in a country, who 

must be the head of the show. But perhaps J have failed to make my 

question clear to some extent.

I have always supported the idea tha t the Ambassador has to 

know what is going on. Within a particular field he is the director 

of the details and of the general operations. That field is the diplomatic and the generally accepted foreign operations field. But we 

have programs such as the technical cooperation program and others
NOMINATIONS 63

tha t at times past have not been able to operate in a country without 

rath er detailed authority, permission, and examination of the Ambassador.

In other words, he has become an administrator of a program rather 

than the head of a mission who should have general overall knowledge 

and the right, at least temporarily, to say yes or no to any recommendations that he may want to transmit to Washington. The line 

is not too clear on that. But we have usually referred to it as a 

difference between operating agencies and diplomatic missions.

Mr. J ones. Well, I do not think tha t the Ambassador, although he 

should be the No. 1 in the agency or No. 1 man of our country in 

any given country, should necessarily take unto himself the responsibility for running every program tha t is there, but he certainly should 

be rath er firmly in control in knowing what is going on. If he is a 

true executive, he shouldn’t try to do these things himself any more 

than he should try to sign every visa tha t comes along himself.

Senator Hickenlooper. I understand tha t, but I thin k this is a 

little different situation. Maybe I can give you a rough illustration 

of what I mean.

Some time ago the head of a particular agency or program in a 

country did not have direct contact with the Ambassador. He had 

contact with somebody at a lower echelon, and his programs had to 

be cleared with that person, who then had to go up the line, perhaps 

through one or sometimes as many as three persons under the Ambassador, to the Ambassador himself. Then the clearance had to go 

to Washington and come back down the same tortuous route and 

so on belore tha t particular agency which was doing an operational 

job of one kind or another—not necessarily traditionally diplomatic— 

could operate.

Now under certain circumstances the head of an agency of th at kind 

in a country is still under the Ambassador, but he has direct contact 

with the Ambassador. He also has direct contact with his superior in 

Washington, and while the Ambassador can stop a program or 

certain activities temporarily if he feels they are unwise, his recommendation is not necessarily controlling until after he has reported 

to Washington and secured authorization there.

Mr. J ones. It is a problem of coordination as well as a problem of 

control. If we can help to clarify the lines, why we will certainly 

give it some attention.

I am afraid this is the kind of a thing in which my judgment won’t 

be very good without some specific instances to go a t as managerial 

types of problems.

Senator Hickenlooper. I think you will find those instances very 

soon.

Mr. J ones. I suspect I will, sir.

“selection-out” policy of the foreign service

Senator Hickenlooper. Now, Mr. Jones, are you familiar with 

the so-called selection-out policy in the Foreign Service?

Mr. J ones. I am generally acquainted with it. I do not know the 

exact details of how the system operates.

Senator Hickenlooper. I cannot furnish you with the details 

because I am not too clear on it myself. I thought perhaps you might
64 NOMINATIONS

help me out on that. But not having been in the State Department,

I could not expect you to know the details.

There is a requirement in the State Department tha t each year a 

certain percentage of officers in the Foreign Service must be selected 

out of the Service. It is a comparatively small percent, but they 

must be selected out. When the evaluations come in, the net results 

have to show tha t some people have been selected out of service. 

It seems to me tha t that is a situation tha t merits attention.

Are you familiar with that?

Mr. J ones. I am not. That is why I said I was not familiar with 

the details of it. I am familiar with the general proposition, and I 

think it is a little bit like one of the things that we have been toying 

around with for a number of years in modern education, the so-called 

grading on a scale, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t 

work.

It is a matter into which I will get because it will be part of my 

responsibilities to understand the system and presumably have some 

responsibility for making it work. I will be better prepared to talk 

about it with you a fter I have been in the Departm ent a little while.

Senator Hickenlooper. I appreciate tha t difficulty. But I also 

appreciate, or I think I do, the fact tha t it probably is intended to 

consistently upgrade the level of those who remain in the Service 

by selecting out those who are rated low.

Mr. J ones. The philosophy is the same as the service philosophy 

of up or out. In the services, if you get passed over a certain number 

of times for promotion, why you are out.

Senator H ickenlooper. Well, I think it is a little different.

Mr. J ones. Yes; it is a little different, but I mean tfie basic philosophy I think is about intended to accomplish something of the same 

kind of thing.

Senator Hickenlooper. I think this is not a selection on the 

question of merit but on the basis of percentage. Some of those 

officers selected out may be meritorious, indeed, but others may be 

considered better. On the other hand, those t hat are coming up may 

really not have tfie qualifications of those tha t are selected out in 

higher grades.

I think it is a very complicated thing. The intention is good, 

bu t I really suggest that you might want to look at and evaluate 

the situation.

Mr. J ones. I will, sir.

C A R E E R PL A N N IN G IN T H E ST A T E D E PA R T M E N T

Senator Hickenlooper. Now, are you familiar with the proposals 

in the State Departm ent to the effect tha t the career of an individual, 

within a reasonable time after he goes into the State Department or 

the Foreign Service, is patterned. Th at is to say, he is told, or it is 

indicated to him, that 5 years from then he will be expected to be in 

this particular post, and in 10 years he will be expected to occupy 

this kind of a job, and in 20 years he will be slated for another kind 

of a job.

Are you familiar with t ha t kind of philosophy?

Mr. J ones. Not in any detail at all. This is related to the problem that I discussed earlier in answer to a question of the chairman 

with respect to the whole business of career planning.
NOMINATIONS 65

Career planning within limits has a very important part in the 

development of any individual, but career planning which is divorced 

from consideration of how the individual himself develops doesn’t 

make a great deal of sense.

Senator Hickenlooper. I thought, as a result of that report which 

you are familiar with, and perhaps participated in, that perhaps 

this particular phase might have come to your attention gather 

substantially and that you might have given some specific thought 

to it.

Mr. J ones. May I say, Senator, that I was n ot aware of the fact 

that it was carried through quite to the extent which the Senator 

indicated.

Senator H ickenlooper. I am sorry that I do not have the details 

myself, so that I cannot assure you just how far this planning is in 

effect, but I think there is something to be observed or studied in 

that kind of an operation.

I realize tha t the plan probably is intended to give encouragement 

to an individual to devote his special talents or attention to a certain 

line of activities—tha t is, to look forward to participation over the 

years in certain activities. But, by the same token, I think there is 

also the possibility that if a person feels tha t his career is definitely 

planned for him over 20 or 30 years, it m ight destroy some competitive 

ambition on his part.

Mr. J ones. I cannot disagree with your statement on that at all, 

sir.

Senator Hickenlooper. Then I hope you will examine this situation quite carefully so th at we can talk to you about it at a late r date.

Mr. J ones. I will be glad to come back on the other question as soon 

as I get a chance to familiarize myself with it.

D IF F E R E N C E S B E T W E E N T H E F O R E IG N S E R V IC E AND T H E C IV IL SE R V IC E

May I say on the other side of the coin there are a good deal of 

things in the Foreign Service which are entirely different from the 

experience I have had in the civil service system. I have found by 

and large in Government that sometimes the processes, while there 

may be a lag in their effectiveness, tend not to stay around too long 

if they aren’t producing good results, but they usually have some 

foundation before they get started, and I have a pretty profound 

respect for the caliber of Foreign Service officer tha t the system has 

produced. It has been a pretty high-type individual, so that if this 

is one of the flaws in the system, and I am not saying tha t it is or 

isn’t, certainly it bears looking into.

Senator Hickenlooper. I am not saying it is or is not a flaw either. 

I do not know.

Mr. J ones. I don’t either.

Senator Hickenlooper. But I think it bears examination.

I join you in your high regard for the average level of the Foreign 

Service officer. By and large, they are quite capable.

Again 1 want to say I think you have an unusual background for 

this job, Mr. Jones.

Mr. J ones. Thank you, sir.

The Chairman. I would remind the members of the committee 

that we have another witness we hope to hear this afternoon. I hope 

we can move along.
66 NOMINATIONS

The Senator from Louisiana.

Senator Long. I have only two questions here, Mr. Chairman. If 

I get satisfactory answers to those two questions, I will not ask any 

more. Is tha t encouraging?

The Chairman. Very encouraging. I do not mind the questions 

but I just wish to remind you we do have another witness.

•

U N IT E D STA TES W E A K N E S S IN LA N G U A G E T R A IN IN G

Senator L ong. I would just like to ask you this question, Mr. Jones.

I am not one of those who completely differs with the book, “ The 

Ugly American.”

I feel that much of the criticism in tha t book is fundam entally 

sound, even though I do not think we are as bad or tha t the Russians 

are as good as that book would lead one to believe.

But one of the simplest criticisms is that we are inexcusably weak 

in languages; I would like to know if you think tha t correct.

Mr. J ones. I think it was true a t one time, Senator Long.

I am not sure tha t it is true now, and I think we are very rapidly 

overcoming the deficiencies t hat did exist at one time.

I think on the other side of the coin, though, we must remember 

that English, too, is now a world language and that there can be too 

much attention given to teaching people the other world languages, 

when English will, in many cases, suffice.

I think it is useful to have a knowledge of French. Unfortunately,

I do not speak it. I understand it. I can read it almost as fast as 

I can read English, but I do not want to say I can speak it because 

I have never learned to do it tha t way.

I have to think in English and then translate and that is a little 

difficult when you are carrying on a conversation.

Senator Long. While one might be able to do business with some 

of a country’s top government officials, if they learn your language, 

is there any real substitute for being able to have Americans who 

can speak the language of a foreign country?

Mr. J ones. No, definitely within limits, but when you consider 

tha t this is no t just a question of perhaps 15 or 20 major languages, 

but literally hundreds of dialects, you get into a very difficult kind of 

situation, the sort of thing that we are now running into in Africa, for 

example, where there are literally hundreds of dialects.

While we can get a fair degree of proficiency among a hard core of 

Foreign Service officers, in the main, almost ethnic groupings of 

languages, I do not think t ha t we should hitch our wagon to the star 

of assumption that we will be able to pick up all of the dialects tha t 

may prevail even within the major language groups on the Continent 

of Africa.

The same kind of thing is true with respect to Chinese. The main 

dialect of Chinese, Mandarin Chinese, can be acquired with a fair 

degree of facility rather rapidly. Then if a man is posted to a place 

in which he needs some Cantonese, he can pick up a little Cantonese.

But I do no t think we should try to go very much beyond that.

There are other minor variations of Chinese which are highly useful, 

but we could not get into all of the dialects.

We are overcoming the language deficiency, I think, in an intelligent 

manner at the present time.
NOMINATIONS 67

CURR EN T DE PA RT M EN TA L LA NG UA GE TR AIN IN G

Senator Long. Since you apparently have knowledge of what is 

being done in this area, can you just give me briefly some idea of what 

is being done to overcome the language shortcomings, Air. Jones?

Air. J ones. Well, a very substantia l number of the departmental 

people—of the Foreign Service people—are now undergoing language 

training. I do not remember the percentages because 1 have not been 

in the operating statistics as yet, but in Spanish, French, and German 

we certainly have a g reat deal more facility than we used to have.

We are picking up very rapidly officers who are experts in all of the 

Slavic tongues, including Russian, and the training in Japanese, 

Korean, and Chinese is progressing satisfactorily.

I am less certain of how well we are doing with the basic African 

languages, and certainly we have done quite remarkable things in 

the field of Arabic.

CO MP AR ISO N OF AM ER ICAN AN D RU SS IA N LA NG UA GE TRAIN IN G

Senator Long. And how do you think we compare to the Russians 

in training in these fields?

Air. J ones. I really do not know because I have no firsthand 

information at all as to w hat kind of a training program the Russians 

have except a little almost hearsay evidence from friends who were in 

Russia at the time of the Aloscow Fair who were interested in this 

and did some talking as to what kind of language training they give.

Apparently, they tend to specialize very hard on a small corps of 

people tha t they want to send into a given country, and I jus t say 

“apparently.”

That is all I know about it, so I have no basis of comparison.

Senator L ong. Since they are in many respects our principal 

competitors, I wonder if you agree tha t one ought to try to find ou t 

how good they are and then try to be at least t ha t good?"

Air. J ones. Well, I have no doubt that information exists as to how 

good they are. I do not happen to be in a position to get t ha t information myself.

Senator Long. Do you think it would be desirable to try to be as 

good as they are in languages?

Air. J ones. I think we ought to try to be bette r than the Russians 

are in everything.

Senator Long. That is my feeling, too. Than k you very much.

The Chairman. The Senator from Vermont?

Senator Aiken. No questions.

The Chairman. The Senator from Ohio?

SE CURIT Y RIS KS IN THE DE PA RT MEN T OF ST AT E

Senator Lausche. Interm ittently , columnists whom I shall not 

identify carry stories describing conduct, if I may put it that way, 

that should not be attend ant with a person in th e State Department.

I am now speaking of security risks. In your study regarding methods by which competent employees may be hired, did you give any 

consideration to the factor of security risks?

Air. J ones. The factor of security risks has been rath er central in 

my thinking for a good many years, Senator Lausche.
68 NOMINATIONS

I believe tha t the basic investigative techniques which are now 

rath er generally used by all Government agencies will uncover a 

security risk in 99 cases out of 100.

There is always the chance that you will miss someone, but I think 

that the risks are minimal. I think the programs are effective, and I 

think our guard is up.

Senator Lausche. It is rath er tragic, but there are many of our 

citizens who are of the belief th at there has been looseness practiced 

in the hiring of personnel in the State Department.

Within the last month my mail has been rather heavy on the 

subject of the need of cleaning out the State Department, especially 

of those persons who are security risks.

Now, in this study which you have made, you have given attention 

to tha t, have you not?

Mr. J ones. Tha t is correct.

Senator L ausche. And will you repeat what you said a moment 

ago concerning your findings on the matter of security in the Dep artment?

Mr. J ones. May I make it clear, Senator Lausche, 1 have not 

gone into the question of security risks in the Department. I am 

not yet actually posted in the Department.

I am more than ordinarily acquainted, however, because of my 

service as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, with the security risk procedures th at are employed by all Government agencies.

I believe th at they are, on the whole, highly satisfactory, and that 

we are not missing security risks, at the present time, except under 

very unusual circumstances.

Senator Lausche. Then, in your opinion, the screening technique 

that has been developed is adequate, and it ought to catch those persons who might be a menace to the security of our country?

Mr. J ones. Very definitely.

D IF F E R E N C E S B E T W E E N S E C U R IT Y R IS K S AND S U IT A B IL IT Y R IS K S

Now, please understand, sir, tha t I am differentiating very definitely here between security risks and suitability risks.

Senator Lausche. Will you define those two terms as you understand them?

Mr. J ones. Our techniques for determining suitability now do not 

permit always some of the kinds of things that might be productive 

of more definitive information. For instance, we do not in all cases 

go into just how emotionally stable an individual may be.

This requires psychiatric techniques, psychological testing, things 

of that sort, and very frequently, not “very frequently,” but occasionally, you will find a person who, after a given period of service in 

the Federal Government, cannot stand the stresses of the exposure of 

Government life and you may find out tha t he was in the first instance 

unsuitable for Government employment.

He breaks down under it in one way or another. He has what we 

used to call a nervous breakdown. But I think our techniques for 

digging out security risks are good.

Senator Lausche. You try to find a competent person. Do you 

give consideration, when you hire, to the personality weaknesses tha t 

may make him an easy prey to threats?
NOMINATIONS 69

Mr. J ones. Yes. If it is evident at all, if there is any history at 

all in the background investigation, for example, of a man who imbibes too freely or a man who has not maintained his credit appropriately or a person who has a record of arrests, even for minor traffic 

violations, it betokens a kind of emotional instability that, by and 

large, we think, needs to be looked at very carefully, and then, of 

course, there are also those other very delicate things such as, for example, sexual perversion and matters of that sort, which I think our 

investigative techniques, by and large, will uncover.

But I cannot say that they are 100 percent successful because, as a 

matter of fact—and as I am sure the Senator knows—although the 

State Departmen t prescreens for suitability, in the rest of the Government the screening very frequently does not take place until after the 

individual is on the job.

We cannot do suitability examinations on the tens of thousands of 

people who are applicants for Federal jobs each year.

Senator Lausche. Well, I think, that covers what I want to know.

In other words, you are of the opinion tha t the methods tha t have 

been adopted in the hiring of employees tend to secure hiring in the 

maximum degree of persons who are competent and who are worthy 

of being hired on the basis of their devotion to the country and on 

the basis of maintaining security?

Mr. J ones. My answer to tha t is an unequivocal yes.

Senator Lausche. And you say that on the basis of how many 

years of service in the hiring of personnel?

Mr. J ones. I am now in my 28th year, sir.

Senator Carlson. Mr. Jones, I believe in 1959 President Eisenhower submitted your name for the Civil Service Commission.

You appeared before our Post Office and Civil Service Committee 

and I state d at tha t time tha t I was pleased with your appointment, 

and I say tha t again today, although, as the ranking minority member 

of the Civil Service Committee, 1 hate to lose you in the position 

you now hold.

Mr. J ones. Than k you very much, Senator Carlson.

Q U A N T IT Y of foreign service and departmental personnel

Senator Carlson. I wanted to ask you one or two questions.

How many people will be under your administration in the Foreign 

Service? Do you have that figure?

Mr. J ones. Yes, sir.

There are today in the Department, if I may break this down, 

about 6,500 in the United States and about 16,700 overseas, or a 

little over 23,000 total.

Of this, 3,674 are Foreign Service Officers; 9,739 are non-U.S. 

nationals.

Then we have also the Foreign Service Reserve of 1,166 and the 

Foreign Service Staff Corps of 3,501.

In addition to tha t, there are approximately 5,100 civil servants, 

who, by and large, are assigned to the Department.
70 NOMINATIONS

IN T E R C H A N G E A B IL IT Y O F FO R E IG N S E R V IC E AND C IV IL S E R V IC E 

P E R S O N N E L

Senator C arlson. In your service as Chairman of the Civil 

Service Commission, have you had contacts with and worked with 

the personnel administration of the Foreign Service in dealing with 

Civil Service problems and Foreign Service problems, or just Civil 

Service?

Mr. J ones. No. I have had some experience with both, Senator 

Carlson, although the Civil Service Commission has no direct responsibility for the administration of the Foreign Service or for any of 

the processes in connecfion with it.

We try to stay somewhat in the know so that the two systems work 

along side by side in a parallel way.

One of the things th at 1 have been very much interest ed in personally 

is greater interchangeability between the two services, particularly 

interchangeability from the Foreign Service into the Civil Service 

without further examining.

There are lots of reasons why this will be, I think, a good thing for 

the Government.

Among other things, such things as, well, a man, for example, his 

wife may develop some kind of a disease where she cannot serve in 

overseas posts. She may be ill; he may be ill himself, but not ill 

enough to give up working or to retire in the kind of a civilization 

that we have or the kind of medical care tha t we have.

There may be problems of children to be educated and things of 

that sort, and I would like to see more interchangeability between 

our career services on a general basis.

Senator Carlson. In view of tha t statement and of your past 

service as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, I assume t hat 

you will be in a position to work very closely with the new Chairman— 

I assume it will be John Macy—who has a good background for 

this field.

Mr. J ones. I am sure tha t I will.

I have known John for a good many years, and I think not only 

our friendship, but our philosophies are such tha t we will be able to 

work together very productively.

Senator Carlson. I made some complimentary, I trus t, remarks 

when your name came before the Senate. I have been pleased with 

the remarks I made at that time and if I can say anything nicer 

about your service, I will be glad to do it.

Mr. J ones. Thank you very much, Senator.

The Chairman. The Senator from Idaho?

T H E R O L E O F T H E AM BA SS ADOR IN D E T E R M IN IN G T H E SIZ E OF H IS STA FF

Senator Church. Mr. Jones, I just have one question. What do 

you think the role of the Ambassador in any given foreign country 

should be in determining the size of the mission in tha t country?

Mr. J ones. You mean establishing his own table of organization, 

so to speak, how many people should he have?

Senator Church. I mean in determining the size of the staff, the 

number of personnel that ought to be assigned to the mission.
NOMINATIONS 71

Mr. J ones. Well, Senator, this may seem like an equivocal answer. 

I think he should have a very substantial role, but I do not think 

he should be the final arbiter.

Senator Church. The sole determ inant?

Mr. J ones. The sole determinant; no. I do not think he can be, 

under the very natu re of our system.

Senator Church. I agree with tha t. The reason I asked the question is that there sometimes develops a tendency to establish what 

used to be called in the Army the “ TO & E ’s,” the tables of organization and equipment, when every battalion is the same size, and tha t 

kind of thing.

This certainly ought not to be the case in determining the size 

of our staffs abroad, but the judgment of the Ambassador or the 

Charge in any given place ought to be given great weight, don’t 

you believe?

Mr. J ones. Yes.

Senator Church. For example, your predecessor in office, in an 

effort to staff up the new embassies that are being created in Africa, 

recently made a series of recommendations.

I do not pass judgment upon these recommendations, but I did 

encounter some Ambassadors in certain African countries who felt 

tha t these recommendations were not realistic. One of them pointed 

out tha t it was really in the best interests of the country to have his 

particular embassy understaffed because overwork was the only escape 

from the tedium and boredom of tha t particular area.

Tha t is an amazing tiling to hear from anyone engaged in employment where a staff is involved.

But he was quite adamant that the recommendations tha t were 

being made were too large and that the result would be that these 

people, having no other diversion, would just get in one another’s 

way and tha t the efficiency and morale would suffer.

Now, this is the kind of consideration tha t cannot readily be taken 

into account by a person exercising his judgment in Washington, but 

can be, and is, ta ken into account by the person faced with the contingencies of life in the area of his assignment.

For that reason, it would seem to me that the judgment of these 

people in the field ought to be given a great deal of weight.

Mr. J ones. I cannot disagree. I know nothing of the facts or the 

circumstances. You have been to Africa, and so has Mr. Henderson, 

but I have not.

I do not know.

I know I have seen posts myself in which the employees have definitely wanted more work than you could do in a 40-hour week because 

there were just too many hours of sitting around with nothing to do.

I have seen such posts, and, by and large, morale is higher if you 

are pushed to working more hours a day and more hours per week, 

more days per week.

Senator Church. For tha t reason, you would give considerable 

weight to the judgment of people in the field in this matter; would 

you not?

Mr. J ones. Assuming tha t there is no statutory reason why I 

cannot, I certainly would. I am not entirely acquainted with all of 

the little details of statute, and sometimes we run into funny things 

by way of statutory allotments and things of th at sort; I do not know.
72 NOMINATIONS

TR A IN IN G IN EX O TIC LANGUAGES

Mr. Chairman, I have one figure—Senator Lausche has gone, but 

if I may put it in the record, I discovered I did have it here.

He asked me a question on how many officers were studying the 

hard languages, the so-called exotic languages. There are 89 who 

are presently assigned to full-time instruction in these difficult languages.

Senator Long. Eighty-nine studying them?

Mr. J ones. Eighty-nine who are now assigned to full-time study 

in the hard languages.

Senator L ong. You say the “hard languages” ?

Mr. J ones. Like Chinese and some of the African dialects and 

things of tha t sort, not the world languages, not French, German, and 

Spanish.

Senator L ong. Approximately how many hard languages are there?

Mr. J ones. I cannot tell you. I know we pick and choose where 

we need the language proficiency the most, Senator.

Senator L ong. Would the number be a hundred or a thousand?

Mr. J ones. I would say the number in which we can give effective 

instruction would probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 

to 30, something of tha t sort.

Senator L ong. You only have 89 people studying those languages?

Mr. J ones. Full time.

Now, this does not take into account the language study which goes 

on in every post. This is the people who are pulled ou t—I think the 

Senator from Ohio’s question was directed to how many people did we 

have going to school full time studying languages in order to become 

language experts.

R U SSIA N S STU D Y IN G T H E E X O T IC LA N G U A G ES

Senator L ong. Could you give us your best estimate of how many 

the Russians have, as counterparts, studying the same languages?

Mr. J ones. If such information is available, Senator Long, gladly.

I do not know whether it is or not. I will find out.

Senator Long. For example, my understanding is that they have 

more than tha t studying Swahili or some such language.

Mr. J ones. Swahili is one of the main dialects of Africa, or one of 

the main languages. It is not a dialect.

Senator Long. You regard that as one of the hard ones?

Mr. J ones. Yes.

Senator L ong. That would be a good one to know something about, 

then, would it not?

Would you provide us with your best estimate of that? It can 

be classified, if you want it that way, but I would be curious 

to know.

Mr. J ones. If the information is available and can be provided on 

either a classified or unclassified basis, I will provide it for the record.

I just do not know whether it is available.

Senator L ong. My understanding is tha t on some of those single 

hard languages tha t you mentioned—you say 25—they have as many 

as hundreds studying those languages.

Mr. J ones. I would say this:
NOMINATIONS 73

I think we can take with some degree of caution Russian statistics. 

I have used them. I started using them during World War II when 

I was assigned to duty working on the four Russian protocols, socalled, the Russian arms agreements, and I learned at that time and 

I have learned since trying to use Russian statistics available through 

the United Nations, that you sometimes have to take them very, 

very cautiously.

Senator Long. You have seen their interpreters operating here in 

Washington; have you not? It is my impression that they are extremely good.

Mr. J ones. Yes, some of them, most of them are. I have had 

one or two who were not, but, by and large, they are competent 

interpreters. I think that the reverse is true, too.

SE CU RI TY AND SU IT ABIL IT Y REQUIR EM ENTS IN THE CI VI L SE RVIC E 

AN D THE FO REI GN SE RVIC E

Senator Long. Might I just get one thing straight in my mind 

with regard to an answer you gave Senator Lausche.

You told him that you feel tha t our procedures with regard to security risks are entirely satisfactory; that you did not believe t ha t they 

could be materially improved upon.

I gained the impression from your original answer that perhaps 

because of budgetary limitations or something else you did not feel 

that you could make the same answer with regard to suitability-----

Mr. J ones. I said this with respect to the civil service, n ot with 

respect to the Foreign Service. In the civil service we do not make 

suitability investigations until after appointment in most cases.

In some cases, of course, where a sensitive job is involved, why, you 

conduct all of the investigation first, but the standard suitability investigation is conducted after appointment.

Although there has been prescreening, which is usually productive, 

we occasionally run into people who have records which do not indicate tha t they should be in positions in the Federal Government, 

particularly where fidelity and trust are involved.

For example, in the Post Office D epartmen t we cannot have people 

in the Post Office Department handling the mail if they have a record 

for minor peculations of one sort or another. You just cannot have it.

Senator Long. What I was trying to get at is this: Do you feel 

that perhaps there should be some improvement in either the State 

Department—because tha t is the area we are speaking of now—or in 

the Foreign Service in the examinations for suitability?

Mr. J ones. I do not know sir, because 1 have not been into it; b ut 

if they are as good as I understand them to be generally, I think the 

answer is no; tha t, by and large, they are adequate.

Senator Long. Yes.

Weli, I wanted to get that straight because I gained the impression 

from your earlier answer that you did not have the same confidence 

in respect to the suitability of employees of the Foreign Service.

Mr. J ones. I was talking about only the civil service department.

Senator L ong. That you regarded-----

Mr. J ones. I think the suitability investigations of the Foreign 

Service before an officer comes on duty at all, before he is appointed
74 NOMINATIONS

initially, are probably very much more thorough than those which are 

generally used otherwise.

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Jones.

C H IN E S E D IA LEC TS

Senator Gore. May I ask one question?

1 attended a dinner par ty in Hong Kong when several Chinese were 

there who could not speak to each other. Jus t what do you teach 

when you teach Chinese?

Mr. J ones. Well, by and large, we teach Mandarin Chinese which 

is spoken by most Chinese, and then add on the next biggest dialect 

which is the Cantonese of south China.

If a man has both Mandarin and Cantonese, under most circumstances he can get along, but I think there are almost 200 dialects 

within China.

Senator Gore. Thank you.

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Jones.

The Chairman. Our last witness tins afternoon is Mr. G. Mennen 

Williams, who has been nominated to serve as Assistant Secretary of 

State for African Affairs.

Mr. Williams has had a long career in government service, marked 

most notably, of course, by his long service as Governor of the State 

of Michigan.

(Mr. Williams’ biographical sketch follows:)

Biofraphical Sketch of G. Mennen Williams

Former position: Governor of Michigan.

Proposed position: Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs.

Born : Detroit, Mich., February 23, 1911.

Educa tion : Stu den t Detroit University School, 1919-25; Salisbury, 1925-29; 

Princeton, A.B., 1933; Michigan Law School, J.D ., 1936; doctor of laws, Wilberforce University; Michigan State University; University of Liberia; H.H .D., 

Lawrence Insti tute of Technology; LL.D., University of Michigan; LL.D., 

Aquinos College, Michigan.

Marital sta tus: Married.

Experien ce:

Non-Government:

1938: Assistant attorn ey general, Michigan.

1947-48: Liquor control commissioner, Michigan.

1949 to December 31, 1960: Governor of Michigan.

Government:

1936-37: Social Security Board.

1939- 40: Executive assista nt to U.S. Atto rney General.

1940- 41: Special assistant to Atto rney General, Criminal Division, 

Depar tment of Justice.

1941: With OPA.

1946-47: Deputy director, Michigan OPA.

Military: 1942-46: Served as lieu tenant (junior grade) adva ncing to 

lieu tenant commander, USNR, overseas.

Office: Depar tment of State, Washington, D.C.

Home: 1401 31st Street NW., Washington, D.C.

Legal residence: Michigan.
NOMINATIONS 75

Governor, we are glad to have you.

You are accompanied by Senator Hart. Senator Ha rt is one of 

our most distinguished Members of the Senate.

Do you wish to make a statement, Senator?

Senator Hart. Very briefly, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. We recognize our colleague, Senator Hart.

STATEMENT OF HON. PH ILIP A. HART, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE 

STATE OF MICHIGAN

Senator Hart. It shall be very brief.

I think even so stark a document as a biography suggests that I 

am not too prejudiced a witness when I say that Governor Williams 

is an extraordinary American.

I knew him as a friend long before any of us, except perhaps he, 

dreamed he would be the Governor of Michigan. I served with him 

in public business. He combines, I think, qualities which are rarely 

found in any man or woman. He has in rich measure all those nouns 

or adjectives, whichever they are, t ha t we always use.

I do hope that the committee will favorably recommend to the 

Senate his nomination and that the Senate shall advise and consent 

to it.

I do appreciate this chance to speak on behalf of Governor Williams.

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator H art.

Governor, would you care to make an initial statement?

STATEMEN T OF G. MENNEN WILLIAMS, NOMINEE TO BE

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AFRICAN AFFAIRS

Mr. Williams. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members 

of the committee.

Than k you very much, Senator Hart.

The hour, of course, I recognize, and the few remarks tha t I am 

going to make are going to be in the interests of expedition in getting 

to the point.

As 1 have listened to the questions today, I discovered th at they fall 

into three main categories:

First, the question of financial conflict of interest;

Second, background for position; and

Third, various questions concerning policy.

C O N F L IC T -O F -I N T E R E S T Q U E ST IO N

As to conflict of interest financially, I do not see that I can have any 

such. I own no foreign stocks or bonds. My principal interest is in 

the Mennen Co. The Mennen Co. has no interest in Africa tha t 

I know of.

It does have some South American and Central American business, 

although we lost some in Cuba.

There is a rumor around that the Mennen Co.—or at least I was 

interested in this position because the Mennen Co. was interested in 

palm oil.

The Mennen Co. uses no palm oil; as a matter of fact, uses no oil 

at all.
76 NOMINATIONS

It uses fatty acids, and all of our purchases are made from domestic 

producers or at least distributors.

Senator Gore. I had not heard that rumor. Be careful you do not 

give circulation to it.

Mr. Williams. I am glad you had not, sir.

FAM IL Y AN D ED U CA TIO N A L BA C K G RO U N D

The second area is the matter of background.

Strangely enough, this kind of a position for me is a kind of fulfillment of a dream tha t my mother had. She was ambitious from the 

beginning that I be in the diplomatic service, and, as a m atte r of fact, 

the family have been world travelers, and I think before I was 10 

I had made my first trip to Central and South America.

In Princeton I was in the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and 

International Affairs, where I graduated Phi Beta Kappa.

I then went on to the University of Michigan Law School, where 

I graduated with honors.

E X P E R IE N C E IN ST A TE AND FE D E R A L G O V E R N M EN T

Since th at time I have been largely in government. I have had a 

short period of private practice of law. I have been in the U.S. 

Government agencies, both old line such as the Departmen t of Justice 

and some of the newer agencies such as the Social Security Board and 

the OPA.

I have also been in various positions in State government.

In passing, I might put in a character reference. I have been a 

member of the junior vestry of my church. Six times as Governor 

of Michigan there has been no breath of scandal in connection with 

our government.

During the war I was an air combat intelligence officer. I was 

entitled to handle all of the top secret material and at the finish of 

the war was decorated.

I believe tha t I am one, like you here, dedicated to freedom.

E X P E R IE N C E ABROAD

I have been especially honored by the Assembly of Captive European 

Nations, the Hungarian Freedom Fighters, and I have the highest 

order of Polonia R estituta.

As far as the world outlook is concerned, I think I have been abroad 

about 10 times. During these occasions I have had the benefit of 

being briefed by the various embassies and I have stayed in a number 

of them.

I believe I visited about three-quarters of the countries of Europe 

on both sides of the Iron Curtain. I have seen much of South America.

I have been in the Middle East, and, of course, during the war, I 

was in the Far East, and, like Mr. Ball, I was a member of the Strategic 

Bombing Service.

As Governor of Michigan, I did make a number of goodwill trips 

to our neighbors in Canada, to the Middle East, to South America, 

and I have been the guest of the Government of Germany and the 

Government of Israel.
NOMINATIONS 77

I have been particularly interested in the problems of the developing 

areas of the world such as the Middle East, South America, and 

Africa, and I do believe that there are a number of similarities in their 

problems, although, of course, there are peculiarities and differences.

BA C K G RO U N D IN A FR IC A N A FFA IR S

Now, coming directly to my background in Africa, I certainly do 

not pretend to be an African expert. Today there are n ot too many 

of them anyway.

But I do intend to be as near one as soon as I can. I have been in 

Africa twice. In 1939, I spent some time in Egypt. In 1958, I was 

the guest of the Government of Liberia, and I also traveled in Ghana.

During the last few years as Governor I have met many of the 

Africans who have visited in the United States. Haile Selassie, for 

example, was a guest in my house. I have known Tom Mboya, 

and so on.

Also, I have had the opportunity to work with African students of 

whom we have a great number in Michigan. I might say facetiously 

in passing that my appointment seems to have had the approval of 

the three “A’s.” Carlos Ronmlo, the other night, was gracious 

enough to say tha t he was in Manila when the announcement was 

made and tha t he thought it was approved by all of Asia.

My friends tell me the appointment has been approved of in Africa.

If I believe the newspapers, it has been approved of in Arizona, 

because my good friend, Senator Barry Goldwater, is reported to have 

said th at if Mr. Nixon had won, I would have been sent to Africa, too.

Senator Gore. I can confirm that. I heard it.

PO LI CY G U ID A N C E

Mr. Williams. The matter of policy, of course, is one tha t is 

difficult at this point of the administration to get into at all fully, 

but, naturally, it will be my intention to carry out the policy of 

President Kennedy and of Secretary Rusk as my policy, and actually 

I find tha t in working with these two men tha t I have been largely in 

personal agreement.

As a m atte r of fact, it was my study of Senator Kennedy's foreign 

policy which caused me early to support him.

M E E T IN G FO OD N E E D S IN T H E CO NG O

I would like to make just two comments on policy points tha t have 

come up, which I don’t know are particularly sensitive, and I think in 

which the line of a utho rity is fairly clear.

One was raised by Senator Symington, and tha t is the matter of 

agricultural surplus.

It seems to me here tha t President Kennedy has indicated his 

intentions very clearly. Already I have been working with people 

in the Departm ent for immediate emergency relief of hunger in the 

Congo, along with Mr. McGovern, Secretary Freeman, the ICA, 

Defense, and all of the other departments interested.

6471S— 61------ 6
78 NOMINATIONS

STU D Y OF N U T R IT IO N A L D E F IC IE N C IE S IN A FR IC A

And I have instituted a study by a foundation to make an overall 

stud y of the nutritional deficiencies in Africa because I think we can 

do a great deal in this area, and I am not at all sure but what the 

United States can have a profitable agricultural export to parts of 

Africa for a period of time because of their nutritional deficiencies.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, the studies with which I have been connected in Africa have raised some point about the question tha t you 

have asked a number of times, and tha t is continuity in office.

D U R A TIO N O F S E R V IC E IN A FR IC A N PO STS

I know this is an area where there has been some thought given to 

the health problem and tha t there should be a quicker turnover 

because of tha t, but I do feel tha t there is a contrary argument tha t 

here continuity is of exceeding importance, and tha t the 2-year 

limitation is much too stringent.

Now, unfortunately, in Africa, because of certain health problems, 

I th ink we do run into another rule of law, and tha t is, as I understand 

it, tha t our officers can only get home leave after so many years or a 

certain period.

I think tha t the African posts ought to have a longer period of 

office, but that there should be some provision for a longer home leave 

so th at the families can have tha t opportunity for necessary rehabilitation.

With tha t, sir, I think I have made the remarks I should like to 

make originally.

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Governor.

I just have one or two things before I call on the members.

R E G IO N A L A SSO CIA TIO N S IN A FR IC A

The Mutual Security Act provides—a proposal initiated, I believe, 

with this committee—tha t our country should try to give assistance 

to Africa on a regional basis. The purpose of this provision was to 

at least encourage the creation of regional associations.

Do you see any prospects for such regional associations in Africa, 

either among the independent countries or dependent territories?

Mr. Williams. I certainly agree, sir, with the policy that the 

United States should encourage all of the regionalism possible.

Now, whether among the independent countries as they now exist 

we will have tha t kind of regionalism in the immediate future, I 

cannot a t all be sure.

I know th at in east Africa, for example, as you well know, there is 

an effort to bring the British areas there in as a region, and I have 

talked to some of the Africans who seem to favor it. So I think tha t 

in our aid and in other ways we ought to do what we can to favor it, 

but I think tha t we must recognize th at to be successful, the Africans 

themselves, if they propose it, will be much more apt to follow it.

So I think tha t we cannot afford to pressure it. But if they tend 

in that direction, I think we can encourage it.
NOMINATIONS 79

IN S T R U M E N T A L IT IE S FO R A ID IN G AFR IC A

The Chairman. Do you think there are adequate international 

instrumentalities to handle the distribution of development assistance 

in Africa or is some new organization needed?

Mr. Williams. Well, sir, I believe tha t if you are referring to such 

agencies as the United Nations and so on, I think tha t these could be 

very helpful. I know that there are ideas of having a combination 

of the United States and some of the European areas.

I think this certainly could be investigated, although I think there 

are some drawbacks, as well as advantages, to that.

I do think that we ought to utilize every possible opportunity for 

the multilateral approach as opposed to the bilateral approach, although like Mr. Ball this morning, I think there are some areas 

where we must use the bilateral, because 1 think in some of these 

African countries they themselves prefer it.

The Chairman. Senator Gore, do you have any questions?

Senator Long?

GRA SS ROOTS A W A R E N E SS OF U .S . A ID EF FO RTS

Senator Long. With the experience you have had in government, 

I would have reason to hope that you share my view tha t the foreign 

aid program should be made more meaningful to the people in those 

countries.

Now, I personally am one of those who has been very much disappointed to find tha t in some areas, where we have spent billions 

of dollars or in some instances where we have spent as much as a 

billion dollars, people there never knew anything about it and people 

here did not know anything about it. Only a handful of politicians 

on both ends, not even the majority of Congress, knew what was 

going on. I would hope very much tha t as a man with the background 

you have had in government—a man who was successful in gettin g 

himself reelected a number of times as Governor, which is no small 

undertaking, as I know from having observed how those things work— 

you would seek to explore ways and means whereby this foreign aid 

would be made meaningful to the man on the street.

Mr. Williams. Senator Long, I may say tha t I am in complete 

agreement with you tha t some of our aid programs have tended to be 

exclusively idealistic without being practical in giving the local people 

something to see, which would permit them to recognize tha t the 

United States is being of assistance.

And, more than that, to permit the governments in office to show 

the people some immediate accomplishments. I think th at this would 

be beneficial both to the African countries and to the United States.

Senator Long. I might just illustrate the sort of thing that has 

occurred to me. Some of the State Department officials took great 

exception to the illustration in “ The Ugly American” about grain 

being sent to a country where the Russians found ways of taking credit 

for the grain being sent. Castro right now is undertaking to take 

credit for the fact that we are proposing to give $500 million to develop 

Latin America.
80 NOMINATIONS

Even where we have shipped grain, it seems to me, we have done it 

in many instances in the worst possible way so tha t by the time it 

got there, the local politicians handled all the grain and sold it to the 

people. If you went over and said, “ How did you like that grain we 

gave you,” they would say, “ Gave us? We paid for it. We worked 

lor that grain.” They almost want to slap you for the suggestion 

tha t you did something for them. One person who came from one of 

the Asian countries told us on one occasion: “ We think you are corrupt. We don’t know much about communism, but we understand 

corruption, and every time we see your politicians and ours getting 

together, it looks like we are getting the worst of the deal.” In many 

instances they do no t see the good getting down to them.

By contrast, before the Corps of Engineers is going to build so much 

as a levee in my S tate they hold a meeting to which the local people 

are invited to discuss the necessity of doing this project. There is 

discussion of what their share of the project would be. And when it 

is undertaken, everybody in the whole area understands what the 

problem is, what the local participation is, and what the Federal 

Government participation is.

I would hope tha t we might be moving or at least trying to move in 

that direction anti tha t we could get the benefit of the good will that 

could be generated by doing some of these things for these countries.

Mr. Williams. I think insofar as 1 have anything to do with it, I 

will endeavor to see t hat those ideas are fulfilled.

U SE OF LO CA L C U R R E N C IE S

Senator Long. I wonder if the thought has occurred to you tha t in 

come cases we might make some use of the vast amounts of foreign 

currency tha t we have accumulated around the world.

It might require some modification of the law in order to make it 

possible for us to use some of the currencies generated in some of the 

more developed countries to help with the program in the less-developed countries. We could have perhaps the Italians or the Mexicans 

or others, besides the United States, manufacturing and shipping 

some of the commodities tha t might be needed in these countries, 

rath er than it all having to be charged as a new expenditure here in 

Washington all the time.

I hope tha t you might look into this and see if there is some possibility of doing something like that.

Mr. Williams. 1 hate to be accused of using easy money, bu t I 

must say tha t I think using as much of the soft dollars as possible, 

instead of hard dollars, is very, very important to us.

M R. W IL L IA M S ’ ST A T E D E PA R T M E N T P O S IT IO N

Senator Long. I am pleased to see you have this assignment, 

Governor Williams. I believe that you understand people, and I 

think tha t tha t is one thing that is very much needed.

I also think tha t you are one who is not afraid of a new idea and 

we need some new ideas in this program. I am delighted to see you 

before us.

Mr. Williams. Thank you very much, sir.
NOMINATIONS 81

Senator Gore. I have another meeting to which I must go. If 

Senator Hickenlooper will just excuse me, I wanted to tell you one 

very brief story, Governor.

After a long day of travel in the Philippines seeing aid programs, 

bulldozers, tractors, and so forth, I, along with a few others, had an 

evening with one of the great Asians of this century, in my opinion, 

the late President Magsaysay.

He made a s tatemen t which, to me, was memorable. It was this: 

“What the Filipino wants and needs is a carabao and a metal point 

for his plow.”

I hope that you will remember tha t in your administration of programs in the primitive economies of Africa.

The Chairman. Senator Hickenlooper?

PR OB LE MS AND PO LI CIE S IN AF RICA

Senator Hickenlooper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Governor Williams, the continent of Africa, which you will be in 

charge of in the State Department, is quite a vast area, and it has 

many problems.

Do you conceive Africa to be an area where one particular policy 

should prevail, or are there different problems tha t may or may not 

be associated?

Mr. Williams. Senator, I think, of course, we have to be sure of 

what we mean, when we say “policy,” because, obviously, there is 

one policy tha t we are going to pursue and that is the welfare of the 

United States.

But I agree with you in your position that there are-----

Senator Hickenlooper. I did not take any position.

Mr. Williams. Well, I agree with the question that there are 

different problems.

I would agree with that alternative, and that some areas will 

require one specific; other areas, another. But there are certain 

problems which affect the overall feelings of the people of Africa, 

and there are a good many of those to which I think we are going to 

have to address ourselves with a policy which perhaps you might say 

■was overall.

US E OF AG RI CU LT UR AL SU RPL USE S IN AF RICA

Senator Hickenlooper. Now, you mentioned a while ago in one 

of your answers the use of agricultural surpluses for good in Africa.

Mr. Williams. Yes.

Senator Hickenlooper. Do you think tha t should be a policy of 

our country?

Mr. Williams. To use agricultural surpluses for food?

Senator Hickenlooper. Yes.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir. I agree fully with the program of food 

for peace, and I think t ha t this would be a p art of that.

There are n ot only many people in Africa who have only one meal 

a day, but there are many who are so weak that they cannot do 

particular kinds of work.

I think that if we looked forward to Africa—to an Africa tha t can 

take its place in the family of nations strong and independent, they 

are going to have to have an economy based on people tha t can do a
82 NOMINATIONS

full d ay’s work. I think this means adequate nutrition, and at least 

for a while this may mean American food.

Senator Hickenlooper. Do you have any estimate at the present 

time as to how many people in Africa are suffering from malnutrition?

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I do not, but I have, as I intimated, 

accepted the offer of one of America’s foundations to make such a 

survey.

Senator Hickenlooper. Which one?

Mr. Williams. The Albert and Mary Lasker Foundation.

PR O B LE M O P D IS T R IB U T IO N O F S U R P L U S E S

Senator Hickenlooper. How would you distribute this food? 

I am not in disagreement with the use of food for humanitarian 

purposes.

Mr. Williams. I think you are putting your finger on the most 

difficult part of the entire problem, and that is:

Getting the food to the people who need it. I think that this may 

have to vary by the area. For example, now in the Congo, there are 

a number of the private agencies and particularly the religious organizations that are working on it, and perhaps they will be able to do 

the whole and complete job.

But there may be other areas where another method will have to 

be employed.

Senator Hickenlooper. Would you make the people pay for this 

food?

Mr. Williams. Well, again, sir, I do not think we can have any 

hard-and-fast rule. I think in the Congo, for example, where these 

people are practically destitute, there is no real way of visualizing 

their paying for it, and their government also would be unable to pay 

for it. If it were possible for them to pay for it, I think that we 

should look to tha t, but I think there will be many times when this 

will be impossible.

PO PU L A R A W A R E N E SS O F U .S . A SSIS T A N C E

Senator Hickenlooper. Now there has been some criticism tha t 

the distribution of American assistance such as food never gets down 

to the people—th at is, the knowledge of what we are doing never gets 

down to the people. They complain—and I think this was one of the 

burdens of Senator Long’s questions a moment ago—that they have 

to pay for it, and therefore we are not doing anything for them.

As a matte r of fact, in those cases we have given it to their governments, and the governments make it available on a sales basis for 

which the government receives local currency, and that local currency 

eventually is translated into local currency deposits. But it is 

entirely possible tha t the people do not know that.

How would you make certain that the people themselves knew 

that it was American generosity th at made the food available to them?

Mr. Williams. I think if you have an operation such as we would 

have to have in the Congo if this was distributed by American missionaries, for example, these people I think, that is the missionaries, 

would be known to the indigenous people and I think that would be 

Quite clear.
NOMINATIONS 83

At other times I suppose the agencies might be either American 

Government or private agencies, and I think perhaps it ought to be 

properly marked. We have instances around the world of course 

where the American food has its bagging marked with certain Russian 

characters so that the people thought it came from the Russians. 

I think we would have to just be careful in the actual distribution.

D IS T R IB U T IO N O F U .S . A SSIS T A N C E

Senator Hickenlooper. The reason I am asking these questions is 

that we have been over this problem of trying to assure that the 

people know the source of this food so often. Yet repeatedly we run 

up against the opposition of governments—th at is, governments are 

not very eager to let American agencies operate in their countries as 

such. They prefer to handle it with their own machinery in the 

normal course as they see it.

Unless the food is turned over to some central agency and sold, 

even at a low price, there is no assurance that some won’t get too 

much and others will get none of it. In other words, when you are 

giving away food, who are you going to give it to? Are you going 

to hold a census and see tha t every person in the country gets his 

measure of wheat?

I don’t know tha t you have the answers to those questions. I do 

not know th at anybody has the answers to them particularly, but it is 

something you have to think about.

Mr. Williams. I agree, sir, and I think we are getting into the 

question that you asked Mr. Jones, and tha t is how far the State 

Department is going to be the operating agency and how far it is 

going to be a policy.

Now I agree with what he said very definitely about the Ambassador 

being the direct representative of the President, but I have a feeling 

that some of the agencies that we would use in the field, whether it is 

the ICA or the Agriculture Departm ent or what, will be like the 

Marines in a military operation where they are working with the Navy. 

The Navy tells them what to do, but it certainly doesn’t tell the 

Marines how to do it, and I think th at this in p art is going to be what 

the line of demarcation is.

PR O B LE M S R E LA TIN G TO AM BA SSA D O RS’ RO LES IN T H E F IE L D

Senator Hickenlooper. I take it you feel th at there are some problems in that field that have not been resolved yet.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

I must admit that in my travels in the past in various p arts of the 

world I have seen smooth operations and I have seen operations tha t 

weren’t quite as felicitous as we would like. However, you can’t lay 

the blame on any one area because sometimes it is a matter of personality where a man didn’t assume his responsibilities, and sometimes 

where somebody else was going beyond his responsibilities.

But I do think that the Department will develop a very definite 

policy which we would hope to see operate throughout the country, 

tha t is throughout the world, and maybe I am stepping ahead a little 

fast, but this is certainly the way I would visualize i t for the African 

operation where I feel tha t, with things moving as fast as they have
84 NOMINATIONS

been and will be in the future, we are going to have to have some 

pretty hard-hitting dynamic embassies who are going to be keeping 

ahead of what is going on.

CO M PETIT IO N W IT H U .S .S .R . IN AFR IC A

Senator Hickenlooper. Do you think we should get into competition with the Russians in each country in Africa?

To use a poker game as an illustration, if they put in a couple of 

chips we should put in a couple of chips, or even raise their bet a 

little bit?

Mr. Williams. Well, sir, my philosophy on that is this: tha t the 

United States should have an overall long-range objective of seeing 

that these various African countries be strong enough politically and 

strong enough economically to stand on their own feet and not have 

to succumb either to the Russians or to us or to anybody else. And 

so I think tha t we ought to move fast and consistently to develop 

these kinds of countries.

Senator Hickenlooper. Do you not think th at has been our policy 

in the past? Do you not think tha t was the policy of the Marshall 

plan? Do you not think tha t has been the policy of our whole aid 

program, namely, to try to stimulate countries to get on their own 

feet?

Mr. Williams. Again, sir, I wasn’t commenting on any existing 

program. I was merely answering your question. I do think tha t 

this has been the overall American philosophy; yes, sir.

CR ED IT FO R W HAT U N IT E D ST ATES DOES

Senator Hickenlooper. Now, it is pretty well known tha t the 

Russians have gained considerable mileage on occasions by having, 

for example, a small shipload of wheat come into a port with banners 

on the ship, and photographs and news stories in the newspapers to 

the effect that the Russian aid is beginning to arrive; and that is the 

last tha t is ever seen of tha t wheat. Yet they get a lot of credit out 

of it, when, on the other hand, we have been in those countries and 

have continued in the countries with vast amounts of aid of various 

kinds.

Mr. Williams. I think tha t I would reply to that by referring to 

both what Senator Long and Senator Church have said.

While I do think we have to use a kind of psychology about this 

that gives us the due advantage and gives the country the due advantage of knowing what we are doing, secondly, I do feel that some of 

the processes become so encumbered tha t we d on’t move as fast as 

we could, and I think the example of the Marshall aid being most 

effective the first year and so on is something that we ought to take to 

heart, because many times if we can be there first with a little, it will 

be much more important than being there late with a lot.

Senator H ickenlooper. Thank you very much, Governor. J 

think t ha t is all.

The Chairman. Senator Church.
NOMINATION S 85

S IG N IF IC A N C E O F N E W C O U N T R IE S IN A FR IC A

Senator Church. Governor, we have already had an exchange of 

views on Africa and I am well aware of your general viewpoint. I 

have profited from our discussions. The hour is very late and I do 

not propose to belabor you now with a long series of questions j ust 

for the purpose of the record. But I would like to locus a little 

attention on the unprecedented upheaval in Africa tha t gave birth 

to 16 new independent countries last year, and has led historians to 

regard 1960 as the African year.

What significance do you attach to this upheaval, and what importance do you give to Africa in the general scheme of American foreign 

policy?

Mr. Williams. Th at sounds like an open invitation, Senator 

Church.

I feel this: That the burning light of freedom has flamed perhaps 

latest in Africa among all of the continents, but perhaps its very lateness has increased its intensity to the point where this is an overpowering consuming factor in everything that is going to go on there.

I think that the Africans recognize that after a number of centuries 

they have been denied not only many of the blessings of political 

freedom, but many of the blessings of our technical and scientific 

revolutions and tha t there is really no reason why they sh ouldn’t have 

the benefit of all of these things.

I think they are going to rush headlong after them, and they are 

going to look to whatever source they can for assistance, and I think 

tha t if we can be of assistance to them in the next critical decade, tha t 

we will have established our friendship in that continent perhaps for 

generations to come.

IM PO R T A N C E OF A FRIC A TO T H E U N IT E D STA TES

Now I think tha t in any geopolitical study of the world that the 

importance of Africa will soon be seen to be very great, and I think 

that here is an opportunity which the United States can afford to lose 

only a t its own peril. So I feel tha t both for humanity which Americans always sustain and for our own interests and the interests of all 

of tiie West, this is an area to which we must atta ch very real 

importance.

FO R C ES O F S E L F -D E T E R M IN A T IO N AND A N T IC O L O N IA L IS M IN A FR IC A

Senator Church. I concur wholeheartedly in that and I agree also 

tha t the newly emerging African countries have an arden t interest in 

the principle of self-determination and are passionately against 

colonialism, and that their attitudes toward the rest of the world are 

going to be greatly influenced by the position that other countries 

outside Africa take in regard to these fundamental principles.

There are at present crises going on in Africa th at concern the rights 

of self-determination—in Algeria, in the Congo, in some of the remaining colonies—and these have been the subject of considerable 

controversy in the United Nations. Now I am doubtful th at President 

Kennedy would have won an election in West Germany or in France, 

but I am certain tha t he would have carried Africa by storm, largely 

because of the speech he made on the floor of the Senate in 1957, in
86 NOMINATIONS

which he urged the United States to identify itself more strongly with 

the cause of self-determination for the Algerian people. Everywhere 

I went in Africa I sensed high expectations that the Kennedy administration would bring very significant changes in American foreign 

policy.

I mention this because we are going to be faced with these problems 

again in the United Nations and elsewhere. It does not matter how 

much we talk about the American Revolution and our historic commitment against colonialism, if we do not vote that way in showdown contests in the United Nations. Otherwise these African countries are going to lose faith in the United States and all the economic 

aid we push into Africa will be of little avail to us.

I saw much evidence of the tremendous effort that the Communist 

bloc countries are making in Africa, and I feel tha t the ideological 

contest there is param ount in its importance.

Mr. Williams. Could I just comment?

Senator Church. Yes, would you comment?

A FR IC A N E X PE C T A T IO N S OF N E W A D M IN IS T R A T IO N

Mr. Williams. Senator Church, could I just comment on one 

thing that you pointed out, and tha t is the tremendous expectations 

generated by the Kennedy victory.

I happened to have been in South America with 27 other Governors 

just after the election, and I sensed the very same thing. Now this 

in a sense is a tremendous responsibility for the administration, for 

the whole Government, and for the American people, because if we 

don 't at least live up in some measure to these expectations, the 

little tha t we do will be worse than nothing because they have expected so much, and as a consequence we have our work cut out for us 

to move wisely, to move in such a way tha t we have some immediate 

earnest of our later intentions than to have those later intentions 

under some form of development so tha t these great expectations 

won’t be dashed into ashes and turned against us.

IM PO R T A N C E OF ID EO LO G Y

Senator Church. Would you agree with me that the importance 

of ideology in a revolutionary period of the kind that we are now 

experiencing in Africa takes precedence over most every other aspect 

of our policy there?

Mr. Williams. I certainly agree with your feelings, sir, and I 

think the necessity of recognizing human dignity abroad and at home 

is something of really tremendous importance, and I think tha t if 

we can make steps in this direction, these steps are not going to be 

measured in millions or billions of dollars, but in our attitudes.

I think if we can move swiftly and surely in that direction, it is 

going to be vitally important for all of us, for the welfare of the whole 

world.

T E N D E N C Y TO W A RD N E U T R A L IS M IN A FR IC A

Senator Church. You are aware, Governor, of the tendency of the 

new African countries to adopt neutral positions in their foreign policy 

as it may relate to the cold war.

How, generally, do you regard this tendency as it affects the United 

States?
NOMINATIONS 87

Mr. Willi ams. Well, I can’ t speak as an expert, but I would like 

to begin by saying that President Kenn edy in his inaugural message 

and Dean Rusk in his testimony here indicated that we have to expect 

a certain amount of this neutralism in the cold war, so to speak, and 

I think that when I was talking to Senator Hickenlooper a moment 

ago, he indicated that our policy in the past and the present should 

be one to see to it that these African nations gain as quickly as possible 

a sturdy economic and political independence, because if they are 

willing to stand on their own feet, this is the thing that is im portant 

to them and to us in maintaining a good life and peace in the world.

Senator C hurch. We really should have nothing to fear then from 

independent African countries so long as they are free to vote in the 

United Nations on the merits of each given proposition as they may 

see it. What we do need to fear is the possibility that these governments might be drawn behind the Iron Curtain and be made satellites 

who would lack that independence of judgment; is that not correct?

Mr. William s. Yes, sir. I think that what we want to be sure is 

tha t this neutralism and independence is true neutralism and true 

independence and not a mask for something else. And again I think 

in the inauguration message the story of somebody trying to ride the 

tiger ending inside the tiger is something which is vitally important, 

and I think something that much of the world doesn’t seem to recognize is that the Soviet Union today has the greatest and perhaps most 

depressing colonial system of any imperialism in the world’s history. 

This is just one of the facts. This isn’t my central problem, but this 

is something which has interested me over a period of years.

Senator C hurch. This very fact is exceedingly difficult to make 

clear in Africa, I have found, largely because the experience of the 

African with colonialism has not involved the Russians but has involved the colonial powers of Western Europe for the most part; 

and secondly, because the black African tends to think of colonialism 

as that situation that places white man over black man rather than 

as a situation which might place white man over white man.

For these two reasons I have found that it is very difficult for Africans to visualize the satellite countries of Eastern Europe as a part 

of the only new empire that has been created in the 20th century, 

an empire which has been created by the Soviet Union. And, to make 

that point clear, that seems to me to be one of our serious problems in 

Africa.

Mr. Willi ams. Of course, as you pointed out, there is a historical 

reason for this, b ut I think as we look to more recent history, in India 

we had an in ability to recognize the Soviet imperialist to begin with, 

but when the Red Chinese started moving in some of the areas that 

they did more recently, then this whole thing became much more 

clear, and I do believe that it had an impact in Africa as well.

Now I just want to make sure on the record here that I go back to 

my original statement that what we are trying to do is to help the 

African countries realize what they call their African personality, to 

get their own freedom of action, to have such pan-Africanism as they 

feel best suits their own needs, and that this discussion that you and 

I have been engaging in is a philosophical reflection on our necessary 

position in viewing the world.

Senator C hurch. Yes.
88 NOMINATIONS

EX C H A N G E PR OGRAM S W IT H A FRIC A

Will you have any direct control over the exchange programs, 

Governor, in your new position; tha t is to say, the student exchange 

programs?

Mr. Williams. I can’t say how direct it will be, but certainly it has 

been recommended that our Bureau do a great deal of work in developing this area.

Senator Kennedy has indicated as Senator tha t he felt that education and educational exchanges w’ere one of the vitally important 

things to the growth of Africa, and I think tha t this necessarily, 

either directly or indirectly, will be a large part of the operations of 

our African Bureau.

Senator Church. One only needs to see the way tha t young 

Africans sit under the stree t lamps at night to read from the light of 

the arc lamps above them to find how tremendously interested they 

are in obtaining an education. But it does occur to me tha t some 

of our exchange programs need to be carefully reviewed.

For example, several hundred African students came here recently 

from Kenya and Tanganyika, from East Africa, under what would 

appear to be a hastily improvised kind of program. Each one had 

not more than $800. Some of them were taken into high schools 

and others into rather poorly selected colleges, in areas where they 

are going to be confronted, in all likelihood, with serious problems of 

racial discrimination, and where all of them will soon be without funds 

and no provision has yet been made to take care of them when this 

crisis occurs.

Now, such a program as this, it seems to me, m ight end up doing 

us a great deal of damage and precious little good. It may result in 

a failure on the part of the students who come to secure the education, 

and many of them may retu rn to Africa very much embittered by their 

experience here in the United States.

Therefore, I think tha t if these exchange programs are going to be 

effective, we had bette r take great care in the way that they are 

administered.

Mr. Williams. Senator, I have had a similar experience as Governor ol the State, because I have met with the African students both 

at the University of Michigan and Michigan State University, and 

these young people have very many problems, financial problems, 

social problems, and if we are not going to make adequate provisions 

both for their education and their welfare socially and otherwise while 

they arc over here, we may lose the benefit of wThat we wrere trying to 

do; instead of sending home well-educated people who are at least 

openly friendly to the United States, we may send home people who 

are somewdiat embittered, who can’t understand our foreign policy 

and are somewhat unable to understand our domestic policy and I 

think we must examine, too, some of the programs tha t have been 

developed to help in the selection process, setting up schools of orientation so that the transition is made easily for language, for difference in 

custom and perhaps even food and all of the other things, and then I 

think each university tha t we choose to send these people to must also 

have a pre tty careful program to help these people orient.
NOMINATIONS 89

COM M U NIT Y R E S P O N S IB IL IT Y IN E X C H A N G E PROGRAM A R EA

But I think we have got to go even further than that. I think our 

communities have got to recognize the responsibility. I think our 

churches, for example, want to sponsor some of these people, and I 

have one feeling tha t in the African area particularly there is a tendency 

too often to think about what Government is going to do about this 

situation, whereas I think there are so many private agencies and 

citizens groups in the field who are going to effectuate a large part of 

the overall American policy that if we don’t have coordination between 

Government and private groups and recognize that private groups have 

got a big job, we are going to fall down.

And I think in the area of education this is of really primary importance, because our foundations and our private schools and our 

State schools and the like all have a great part to play in getting the 

maximum impact tha t America can give. I think this is one of the 

real challenges, to he able to make our pluralistic democratic society 

work; in the monolithic totalitarian system they can start from beginning to end and through Government take care of everything.

Now we can’t do that, but I think that while it is harder to accomplish the results, we can have great results, and I think the Africans 

will recognize it after a while, that we are bringing to the fore really 

the people themselves and not just a ruling clique up at the top.

Senator Church. I could not agree with you more that these 

programs have to he carefully organized in this country and have to he 

administered with some degree of sensitivity and understanding, and 

appreciation for the situation tha t will confront these young African 

students when they come to the United States.

A T T IT U D E S O F A FR IC A N S V IS IT IN G T H E U N IT E D STA TES

I was alarmed, for example, to be told by an American in Ethiopia 

in a position to know that in his judgment four out of five of the 

Ethiopian officers brought to the United States for military training 

in this country and trained largely in military bases located in the South 

returned to Ethiopia very much embittered against the United States. 

This, of course, goes to the problems that faced them in the discrimination tha t they encountered in this country. So we have to be very 

careful in the way we conduct these exchanges, and we cannot proceed 

upon the bland assumption tha t just coming to the United States is 

going to endear us to all the young Africans to whom these educational 

opportunities are extended.

In your new position I would urge you to give careful consideration 

to these aspects of our exchange program.

Mr. Williams. Thank you, Senator Church.

I would ju st like to say tha t while your example was a regional one, 

this isn’t confined to any region.

Senator Church. I know it is not at all.

Mr. Williams. We have the problem wherever the students are, 

and I think that it is a challenge to all of our people.

Senator Church. Yes. I did not mean by my question to refer 

to any particular section of the country because this problem is a 

national problem.
90 NOMINATIONS

Mr. Williams. Yes; I am sure you didn’t.

Senator Church. And I must say in tha t connection that there 

never was an occasion while I was in Africa before any press conference or any student group or any other group of Africans where 

questions were asked tha t a number of these did not relate to our 

own treatme nt of Negroes in the United States. And always we tried 

to put this in a proper perspective to show the very great progress 

that we have made in this country, and to compare our progress 

with other countries facing similar problems.

1 think that in any such comparison the United States benefits. 

Nevertheless, in countries tha t are 99 percent composed of African 

peoples, this remains a terribly serious handicap to the United States, 

and somehow, some way, we have to try and put this in its proper 

perspective in Africa, I know you will be dealing with this aspect 

of our dilemma in your efforts there.

A N T IC IP A T E D T R A V E L IN A FRIC A

Do you plan to travel extensively in Africa, Governor?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; 1 do. I feel tha t I ought to visit all of 

the countries and dependencies of Africa before the year is out. 

This is going to be a pretty large assignment, but I feel tha t this is 

the territory tha t I am going to have to serve and tha t to do tha t I 

will want to know the people. This I know is going to be a joy 

because it is going to be very interesting, but I think as a good matter 

of practical business operation this must be done.

Senator L ong. Senator Aiken.

STUD Y AN D D IS C U SSIO N OF A FR IC A N A F F A IR S

Senator Aiken. Governor Williams, when you received word tha t 

you would be nominated to the post of Assistant Secretary for African 

Affairs, I assume you proceeded to inform yourself and bring yourself 

up to date on matters pertaining to the various African countries 

and colonies and territories? In fact, I am sure you did that. How 

did you go about it?

Mr. Williams. Well, sir, very shortly after the announcement of 

the appointment, I came to Washington to take a desk here in the 

State Department. But I must admit tha t I still had an overriding 

responsibility to the people of Michigan tha t I wasn’t able to discharge until about 10 days after the beginning of the year. I was 

briefed by the various sections of the Bureau. There had been task 

force reports tha t Senator Kennedy’s people had worked on that I 

read, but I must confess tha t my complete education was somewhat 

hindered by the number of people who were looking for jobs and 

seeking information, so that I didn’t have as much opportunity to 

study as I would like and hope to have as time goes on, sir.

Senator Aiken. Have you become acquainted with the representatives of the African countries who have been here in the United States?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I knew some of them before. I had met 

them on occasion. Fortunately for me, the African countries had a 

meeting at the Mayflower, a reception which I attended and I had 

the opportunity to meet all of them there. I was last night at the 

Embassy of Guinea at their invitation.
NOMINATIONS 91

While it is not in my jurisdiction, I am going to visit the UAR 

Embassy. They are having some sort of an occasion here. And 

I hope, sir, to pay a courtesy visit to each one of these representatives 

as quickly as I can.

Senator Aiken. You have not had much opportunity, then, up to 

now to discuss with them their problems in relation to the United 

States?

Mr. Williams. I have had one visitation, sir, by a representative 

of one of the countries, but it was in the nature of a courtesy visit, 

and I think until such time as I am fully a member of the Department 

it would be rath er difficult for me, sir, to discuss any policy things in 

a meaningful way.

Senator Aiken. Have you discussed African problems with the 

French representatives?

Mr. Williams. No. sir; I haven’t really discussed African policies 

with any governmental representative other than American ones.

I may say, sir, I have also met with a number of the professionals 

who are African experts in different parts of the country.

Senator Aiken. Then you probably have not discussed problems 

with South African representatives or the English or the Belgians.

Mr. Williams. No, sir; I haven’t except tha t I went to an educational conference at Princeton for E ast Africa, and I sat next to the 

British representative from London there, and we just had a very 

general conversation.

A C Q U A IN TA N C E W IT H TO M MBO YA

Senator Aiken. I noticed earlier in the day you made reference to 

your acquaintance with Mr. Tom Mboya.

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir.

Senator Aiken. How well acquainted are you with him?

Mr. Williams. Well, I had the occasion to speak with him from 

the same platform, to have the opportunity of talking with him both 

before and after, and I have had some other conversations with him, 

sir.

Senator Aiken. And do you consider him a good auth ority on 

Tanganyika and other Eas t African countries?

Mr. Williams. I consider him a good a uthority, sir. I consider it 

my duty to look to all sources of information and to make my final 

decision when I have all th e whole spectrum before me, sir.

Senator Aiken. You are, however, familiar with his political 

philosophy and any possible aspersions?

Mr. Williams. Yes, sir; I am.

Senator Aiken. In matters concerning the Eas t African territories, 

would you be inclined to give Mr. Mbo ya’s opinions considerable 

weight?

Mr. Williams. Well I think that whoever speaks for the indigenous 

population there must be given considerable weight. Right at the 

moment he is one of the leaders.

Of course Mr. Kenya tta is another, and it seems to me tha t the 

British and other authorities there are paying him attention, so I 

should think tha t would be proper for me also.

Senator Aiken. You, however, would not give his opinions special 

preference over other leaders of E ast Africa?
92 NOMINATIONS

Mr. Williams. Well, sir, before I gave a firm answer to that, of 

course I should be better grounded in the Department and see what 

my advisers had to say.

N EU TR A LIS M IN AFR IC A

Senator Aiken. I noticed you put considerable stress on neutralism 

in our relationship to, in our consideration of, the African countries, 

and there has been rather repeated reference to them as neutrals. 

To what do you consider them neutral?

Mr. Williams. We are coming back to the little discussion which 

Mr. Church and I had*

Senator Aiken. Tha t is what inspired my question.

Mr. Williams. As to whether neutralism is a cloak or a facade for 

actual preference against us or whether it is a real kind of sturdy 

independence tha t we in America, and particularly your part of the 

country, can understand is important.

Senator Aiken. They could not be neutral just for or against the 

United States. They would have to be ne utral between the United 

States and something, would they not?

Mr. Williams. I think tha t we get into difficulties of language 

here, but as I visualize it, what we would like to see is tha t these 

countries have a strong enough political foundation to make their 

own determinations as to what seems best to them and a strong enough 

economic basis to carry this out, and I think tha t we have enough 

confidence in the appropriateness of our free system and also of the 

causes tha t we in the West espouse that if they are really independent 

tha t we are not going to come off second best.

Senator Aiken. Well, “independent” rather than “neutra l” would 

be the word to apply to them, would it not? I found this fall at the 

United Nations a great deal of resentment on the part of some of the 

African and Asian nations at being called neutrals, and even India 

bitterly denied being a neutral. The Indian spokesman one night 

said, “ We are not neutrals” . And you will find tha t among some of the 

African countries too.

Mr. Williams. I would agree tha t it is much better to be called 

an independent than a neutral because it is too close to neuter.

Senator Aiken. Well, the inference is, of course, tha t they are 

neutral as between the United States and Russia, and tha t is w hat 

they resent.

Senator Church. Senator, may I make the observation at tha t 

point tha t this very problem of semantics has led the Prime Minister 

of Nigeria to label the foreign policy of tha t country an independent 

foreign policy in order to avoid the very misconstruction tha t is often 

applied to the term “neutral.”

Senator Aiken. Tha t is true.

Senator Church. And my reference had to do with an independent 

foreign policy, and I am happy t hat the Senator brought up the point.

Senator Aiken. The word “neutral” is misused and I wanted to 

point out here that I really do not think the people th at use the word 

“neutra l” so much actually mean that.
NOMINATIONS 93

P O S S IB L E B A R TE R A R R A N G E M E N T S W IT H A FR IC A N C O U N T R IE S

I noticed in your discussion with Senator Ixmg reference to our 

sales of surplus commodities to foreign countries for local currency. 

I believe many of the African countries, at least some of the African 

countries, use convertible currency, what there is of it. There is not 

much of it.

Have you given thought to the possibilities of increasing our barter 

business with Africa?

Mr. Williams. Sir, first of all let me comment on your correct 

reference to the fact that most of the African currencies are hard and 

convertible and we don’t have soft money there. But 1 think tha t 

Senator Long made reference to the fact tha t in some of the European 

countries we had soft currencies to be used to purchase things to send 

to Africa.

Well, I can’t say tha t I have had any specific barter arrangements 

in mind, sir, but it might be tha t this is something tha t we should 

consider, although I don’t think tha t the American custom has been 

going much into the barter business.

Senator Aiken. You are answering my question all right.

B IL A T E R A L V E R SU S M U L T IL A T E R A L AID TO A FR IC A

Now just two or three other questions. You are familiar, of course, 

with the needs of all the African countries—'and this does not apply 

just to Africa; it applies to most of the countries of the world—for 

economic assistance, credit, technical assistance, and even assistance 

to raise their social status.

Where should we put the emphasis on what assistance we are willing 

and able—I emphasize “able”—to give to the African countries? 

Should we put the emphasis on aid through the United Nations, or 

should we put the emphasis on bilateral programs?

Mr. Williams. 1 think, sir, insofar as we can, the utilization of the 

United Nations is tremendously important both as a more acceptable 

method of receiving by most of the Africans, and, secondly, I personally feel, and 1 think i t is the feeling of many Americans, th at the 

United Nations is one of the hopeful factors for ultimate world peace, 

and tha t we should do everything tha t we can to strengthen the arm 

of the United Nations, so I think for those two reasons I would like 

to see as much as possible done in tha t direction.

Senator Aiken. 1 will not go into t ha t too much further now because 

it is a long story that you will be reading from now on.

U .S . SH A R E O F U .N . O P E R A T IO N S IN T H E CO NG O

Have you given any thought to how far you think the United States 

should go toward paying the cost of the United Nations operations, 

military or police operations, in the Congo?

Mr. Williams. Well, I haven’t given too much thought to it beyond 

the fact tha t it seems to me th at this is a kind of emergency operation, tha t whether we like it philosophically or not, if it isn’t done we 

are going to have an even more desperate situation than we have, and 

as a consequence it seems to me tha t the force we are going to have 

to pay for or we will have chaos.

64718— 61------ 7
94 NOMINATIONS

Senator Aiken. The question is whether the United States will pay 

most all of it or not or whether we shall pay the assessments tha t we 

have agreed to pay.

Mr. Williams. I recognize the niceties here of what we should do, 

but the alternative of doing nothing here is so desperate tha t I am 

afraid that we are up against it.

Senator Aiken. I recognize, too, that you will be acting in an 

advisory capacity and probably will not make the final decision there.

Mr. Williams. Tha t is for sure.

Senator Aiken. But it is something tha t someone will have to face.

Mr. Williams. Yes.

Senator Aiken. I have been spot-checking on unrelated matters 

this afternoon, Governor, on which I want to get your opinion after 

you have done a few things, and I have been very happy with the 

answers that you have given, even though they have not been 

conclusive.

Mr. Williams. Thank you very kindly.

Senator Aiken. I know they could not be conclusive answers.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Long. Mr. Chairman, I would like to discuss one or two 

more matters.

The Chairman. Have you asked him about the Congo yet?

Senator Long. Well, I had one round. If you want to start it off 

again, go ahead.

The Chairman. Go ahead. I thought you were through.

RACIA L PR O B LE M

Senator Long. Inasmuch as this matter of racial discrimination 

came up, Governor Williams, I can recognize tha t segregation practices in the South and the unwillingness of the majority to relinquish 

their traditions pose a problem. I can realize that.

I appreciate the fact tha t racial discrimination is not limited to the 

South, but tha t it is something of a nationwide problem. Thus far 

I think I have been ra ther fortunate insofar as the colored people of 

my S tate are concerned; they have voted for me. I do not say I got 

any clean sweep majority, but the great majority of them voted for 

me each time I ran. And I have favored the segregation practices 

that exist in the South on the basis tha t the colored people of the 

area are entitled to have equal facilities in every respect, and tha t 

we ought to assure them of that. But the attitud e I have taken, 

and the attitud e of others who have been associated with me, in their 

application has been to point out the great progress tha t has been 

made by the colored people in th e South, and throughout the Nation 

for tha t matter, and also how much better off the colored people are 

over here than they would be if they had never been brought to this 

country, and that if anybody does not particularly like it here, there 

is the fact that they are privileged to go anywhere they want to go 

in this country.

If they think that the situation is better and that their people have 

made greater headway somewhere else, they are privileged to go there 

and a lot of them have. A lot of them have gone to California, New 

York, Pennsylvania and even to your State of Michigan.

But it occurs to me th at maybe one civil rights bill tha t we southerners could enthusiastically support would be a measure to say tha t
NOMINATIONS 95

the Civil Rights Commission would classify those communities that 

rate as really A-l or A-plus in nondiscrimination in civil rights, communities where the civil rights of everyone are respected more than 

any other place in the country, and have a program to help pay the 

expenses of those who want to move there and give them a 15-point 

job preference for any job tha t they want to apply for in the area. 

That I think would meet with enthusiastic support in the South.

Perhaps my intentions might have been misconstrued, but some time 

ago some colored people, not from my State but from other States, 

wanted me to introduce a bill to provide tha t we would pay the 

transporta tion of a representative number of citizens of African descent 

who wanted to go and settle in Africa, and I did it. I did not get any 

support or help in the committee, but it seemed to me that tha t is 

ultimate justice. And frankly I think tha t would be a good answer 

to some of the communities’ propaganda that they like to make, that 

for anybody who really thinks he would be better off in Africa than 

here we would be willing to pay his expenses to go there and help him 

get established, and I think some of those people could make very 

good citizens there.

I am not trying to urge them to leave or anything of that sort, but 

it seems to me tha t some of those who find so much fault with this 

country do not give us credit for the fact that it is still the greatest 

country in the world and I think about the best place for anybody 

to live in. Anybody who goes somewhere else I think is usually anxious 

to come back, and I assure you th at along those lines, insofar as I can, 

I would be glad to cooperate with this problem.

I know tha t if the students who came here went to a university 

where the people prefer tha t the whites go to school with whites and 

the colored go to school with colored, if they went to such a white 

school they probably did feel tha t they were not treated right, and 

we have that problem in Louisiana. If they go to Louisiana State 

they would be admitted, but they would not be treated nearly as well 

as they would if they went to Southern University ju st north of there 

where there is a faculty in all respects on a par and where the students 

get a very good education and are very proud of it.

N E E D FO R FO R E IG N A ID TO R E A C H T H E P E O P L E

I also did want to say something about this food distribution 

problem. I believe I misled you somewhat.

I did not say that any of this food sent by this country was stamped 

with Russian markings. There was a fictionalized story to that effect 

and I do not know th at it ever happened. So far as I know it did not.

But I have been very much distressed—and I believe as you investigate you will find this is correct—th at the rulers of a number 

of the foreign countries—and I suspect you will find that some of 

these African countries will be some of those—have been a lot more 

interested in what they could get for themselves out of this program 

than w hat they could do for their people.

A witness who held a responsible position testified before a subcommittee meeting where I was presiding. And I believe another 

Senator was sitting there at the time when I asked the witness why 

we could not get more results from the shipment of these agricultural
96 NOMINATIONS

commodities. And he said: “Senator,”—he asked me to take this off 

the record—■

if you tell the rulers of some of these countries th at these local currencies—

he was not speaking of Africa b ut the problem is similar—■

th at these local currencies must be used for the benefit of the people of those 

countries, they are going to tell you th at they will not tak e the commodities.

In other words, if some of these people want to use this word 

“sovereignty,” to say that they are a sovereign nation and we have no 

right to know what happens after we send those commodities in there, 

well, my thought is tha t we cannot afford to be supporting such a 

government. If they will not let us know and see the absolute assurance that the funds generated from the sale of our surplus commodities 

are used for the benefit of their people, I don’t think we should do this. 

If one ruler gets away with it, then the o ther fellow finds out about it 

and he uses the same tactics to do the same thing.

1 know th at during the days when we were aiding Europe, if a fellow 

in one country was getting money he had agents out to find out what 

concessions we were making to some other country tha t we were not 

making to him, and the m inute we made a concession in one place lie 

immediately insisted tha t it be made there in his country.

D IS T R IB U T IO N OF COM M O DIT IE S

So I think if we yield to the concept tha t we are so anxious to help 

that we will forego the right to know in detail what happens to the 

money and to see th at it is spent in the way it is intended to be spent, 

we will be the loser. We will not get much effect out of the program, 

nothing like we would I think if we insisted tha t we have a firm deal 

when we give the commodities to begin with, and then when tha t 

deal is carried out.

Mr. Williams. Well, I think that in the handling of the food 

commodities we have a special case. I think in some of the other 

aid programs the actual program idea itself is generated in the local 

country and we might handle tha t a lot differently from actually 

giving them some food to relieve suffering.

I might just say so that you and I understand each other and the 

record understands what we say, I assume that you were not addressing a question to me on civil rights because you know what my position is and I didn’t think tha t you were raising any question about 

that.

Senator Long. If you care to respond to it you may.

Mr. Williams. No.

Senator Long. But I do not mean to suggest-----

Mr. Williams. No, I didn’t think you were, but I didn’t want the 

record to get lost on that.

Senator Long. Governor Williams, I suggest it would be as disastrous for you as it would be for me if the word were to go out that 

we shared the same viewpoint on civil rights. But I am interested 

in this m atter, though, of finding ways to make this program work and 

I think tha t that is a big challenge to your part of the program.

Senator Hickenlooper asked how these commodities can be distributed to people.
NOMINATIONS 97

Would you give them away or sell them?

I do not particularly care whether you give or sell the commodities, 

but if you are going to sell them it seems to me tha t tha t should be 

related to a particular program such as telling the people of an area, 

“Now here, we have these commodities; we are going to sell them. 

We will take the money tha t we get from them and build a schoolhouse. 

We are going to pay for it with the money tha t you pay for the commodities.” And this should be sufficiently and closely related so 

that people can see th at tha t is what you are doing.

Or if you are going to build a road, it should be handled the same 

way. It can be done that way, and usually a successful politican 

manages to relate his tax program to the benefits people are getting.

I do believe there are possibilities of making it work tha t way, and 

I certainly hope that you will explore them.

Mr. Williams. Thank you very much, sir.

F E A SIB IL IT Y OF YOUTH CORPS

Senator Church. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one final question?

Governor, you are acquainted with the proposal that President 

Kennedy made during the course of the campaign to establish a 

youth corps.

Do you feel tha t there might be large opportunities to utilize such 

a corps in Africa?

Mr. Williams. Yes. I think this is a matter, of course, that we 

are working on very carefully now, just like the student exchange.

This has to be carefully, very carefully developed so that you do 

not have any misfits who may destroy the whole effectiveness.

But 1 do think that the experience they have already had in Africa 

has been particularly beneficial, and I was just reading something 

the other day where the idea tha t the young people would come over 

to the country and either get no money or just get the same amount 

of money tha t the indigenous people would get and live under the 

same conditions, tha t this has been received with a great deal of 

enthusiasm; that it is this kind of a thing which elevates human dignity 

and really gets the story of our own revolution and our own society 

across to people.

And, again, it is this kind of a thing which is not going to cost us 

much in dollars, but may be even more effective than many dollars, 

in indicating what we stand for in helping us in Africa and around 

the world.

Senator Church. A number of African leaders raised the point 

tha t more than money, personnel would accomplish the mission best 

in Africa, and personnel is desperately needed in most of these new 

African countries.

They need college graduates; they need teachers competent to 

teach at the prim ary and at the secondary level; they need agricultural 

school graduates who can give extension courses in modern farming 

techniques. And it seems to me tha t in all of these fields, 'until 

Africans have been trained to take over in their own right, American 

young people can play a most significant role in helping to train 

Africans, and also in being personal ambassadors of our concept of 

freedom and free institutions tha t could have a profound effect upon 

African attitudes in this formative period.
98 NOMINATIONS

So I think, as you do, tha t in Africa, even more than anywhere 

else in the world, there are possibilities for utilizing this youth corps 

approach tha t ought to be fully probed.

M R. W IL LIA M S’ ST AT E D EPA R TM EN T PO SIT IO N

I just want to conclude, Mr. Chairman, by saying tha t I think we 

are very, very fortunate to have a man of Governor Williams’ experience and s tatu re in public life as our Assistant Secretary of State for 

African Affairs. I congratulate you, Governor, for taking on this 

delicate and complicated assignment.

I think that it reflects the importance attached to Africa by the 

new administration, and I think it bodes well for the United States. w Mr. Williams. Thank you very much, Senator Church. And may 

I express my heartfelt thanks to the chairman for making it possible 

for me to be heard today, and I certainly will have to be a good 

witness from now on tha t the Senate works hard and long hours. /

The Chairman. I am sorry tha t it did take long, but as you can 

see, the proceedings were beyond my control.

Mr. Williams. I must admit tha t I probably did not help make it 

any shorter.

The Chairman. No; tha t is quite all right.

Do you have anything more to say?

Mr. Williams. No, sir. I am most appreciative.

The Chairman. The committee is adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 5:55 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.)
SUMMARY INDE X

Africa: Page

Bilateral versus multila tera l aid to ______________________________ 93

Competition with U.S.S.R. in __________________________________ 84

Exchange programs w ith ______________________________________ 88

Expecta tions of new adm inistration_____________________________ 86

Imp orta nce of, to United State s________________________________ 85

Instrumentalities for aiding____________________________________ 79

New countries in_____________________________________________ 85

Nutrition deficiencies, stud y of_________________________________ 78

Problems and policies in_______________________________________ 81

Tendenc y toward neutralism i n________________________________ 86, 92

Use of agricultural surpluses in_________________________________ 81

Agricultural surpluses:

Problem of d istr ibu tion_______________________________________ 82, 96

Sending abroad___________________________________________41, 81, 96

Turning into an asset_________________________________________ 42

Aiken, Senator George D.: Examination of nominees:

Williams, G. Men nen__________________________________________ 90-94

Williams, Mu rat W___________________________________________ 6-7

Ambassadors’ role in the field______________________________________62, 83

Atomic reac tor in Israel, construction of_____________________________ 4, 6

Balance of pay ments problem _______________________________ 14, 15, 47, 80

Ball, George W.:

Biographical sketch___________________________________________ 11

Conflict of interest question__________________________ 13, 18-20, 23, 43

Experience in foreign countrie s_____________________________ 20, 25, 27

Gov ernm ent experience_______________________________________ 11, 12

Intere st in foreign economic policy______________________________ 13

Law practice experience_______________________________________ 11, 12

Biographical sketches of nominees:

Ball, George W______________________________________________ 11

.Tones, Roger W______________________________________________ 53

Williams, G. Mennen_________________________________________ 74

Williams, Mu rat W___________________________________________ 1

Budget Bureau attitudes towa rd appropriations of De partm ent of S tate. _ 59

Career planning in State De partm ent_______________________________ 64

Carlson, Senator Fra nk: Examination of nominees:

Ball, George W______________________________________________ 24-27

Jones, Roger W_______________________________________________ 69-70

Williams, Mu rat W___________________________________________ 7

Central American Common Marke t_________________________________ 3

Church, Senator Fra nk: Exa mination of nominees:

Ball, George W______________________________________________ 50-53

Jones, Roger W________________ 70-71

Williams, G. Mennen___________________________________ 85-90, 97-98

Williams, Mu rat W___________________________________________ 7-8

Civil Service Commission rep ort on State De partm ent adm inis tration:

Review of FSO positions______________________________________ 55

Recom mendations of__________________________________________ 56

Summary of _________________________________________________ 55

Common Market in Europe_____________________________________ 25, 27-28

Conflict of interest question concerning—

Ball, George W--------------------------------------------------------- 13, 18-20, 23, 43

Williams, G. Mennen_______________________________________ _ 75

Credit competition from foreign countries____________________________ 25

De partm ent of State rotation policy for Foreign Service personne l______ 8, 57

El Salvador:

Population of ________________________________________________ 7

Present governm ent in ________________________________________ 3

99
100 INDEX

Page

Federal debt, reduction of_________________________________________ 48

Federal Reserve requ irem ents______________________________________ 49

Foreign aid program :

Determining priorities of______________________________________ 50

Expenditures for_____________________________________________ 35

Need for, to reach the peo ple__________________________________ 82, 95

Responsibility of Under Secretary for Economic Affairs fo r________ 22

Foreign competition:

Impact on U.S. e mployment___________________________________ 42

With U.S. ind ust ry_______________________________ :________ 31-33, 40

Foreign debt retireme nt, use of c ounte rpa rt funds for _________________ 35

Foreign Service Academy, proposal for______________________________ 60

Foreign Service and the Civil Service:

Differences between___________________________________________ 65

Interchangeability of personnel_________________________________ 70

Foreign Service personnel:

Quantity of__________________________________________________ 69

Turnover of ________________________________________________3, 5, 57

Foreign tra de restrictions, removal of_______________________________ 48

Fulb right, Senator J. W.: Exa min atio n of nominees:

Ball, George W______________________________________________ 13-16

Jones, Roger W_______________________________________________ 54-61

Williams, G. Mennen_________________________________________ 78-79

Williams, Murat W__________________________________________ 2-5, 6

Gore, Sen ator Albert: Examination of nominees:

Ball, George W______________________________________________ 38-40

Jones, Roger W______________________________________________ 74

Hart, Senator Philip A., s tatem ent on behalf of G. Mennen Williams____ 75

Hickenlooper, Senator Bourke B.: Exa mination of nominees:

Ball, George W______________________________________________ 16-22

Jones, Roger W______________________________________________61-65

Williams, G. Men nen__________________________________________ 81-84

Williams, Mu rat W___________________________________________ 9-10

Jones, Roger W.:

Adm inistrative experience_____________________________________ 54

Biographical sketch___________________________________________ 53

Bureau of Budget experience___________________________________ 59

Relationship to Foreign Service________________________________ 54

Language train ing:

Comparison of U.S. and Russia n_______________________________ 67

Current tra ini ng__________________________________________ 67, 72, 74

Training in exotic language____________________________________ 72

U.S. weakness in _____________________________________________ 66

Lausche, Senator Frank J.: Examination of nominees:

Ball, George W______________________________________________ 43-49

Jones, Roger W_______________________________________________ 67-69

Williams, Mu rat W____________________________________■ ____ &-6

Letter from Mr. Dean Rusk concerning nomination of M ura t W. W illiam s. _ 10

Long, Senator Russell B.: Examination of nominees:

Ball, George W______________________________________________ 29-38

Jones, Roger W________________________________________ 66-67, 72-74

Williams, G. Men nen___________________________________ 79-80, 94-97

Mansfield, Senator Mike: Exa mination of Nominee George W. Ball------- 28-29

Mon etary policies of foreign governm ents------------------------------------------ 49

Mutual secu rity program:

Bureaucracy and t he __________________________________________ 51

Responsibilities of th e---------------------------------------------------------------- 28-29

Private investm ent abroad, adv antage o f--------------------------------- 38-40, 43, 45

Racial problem __________________________________________________ 94

Reciprocal Tra de Agreements Ac t---------------------------------------------------- 24

Representation allowances for FSO --------------------------------------------------- 61

Security risks in State De partm ent--------------------------------------------------- 67

Sparkm an, Senator John : Examination of Nominee George W. Ba ll-------22-24

Specialization and continuity of Foreign Service, advanta ges of-------------- 58

Symington, Senator Stu art : Examination of nominees:

Ball, George W______________________________________________ 41-43

Williams, Mu rat W_________________________________________ - 10
INDEX 101

Page

Tariff protection_______________________________________________ 34

Technical assistance, attitude of Mr. Ball__________________________ 22

Trade barriers, elimination of____________________________________ 14, 33

Underdeveloped areas, allies’ obligations t o_________________________37, 47

United Nations operation in Congo, U.S. share of___________________ 93

U.S. exports, promotion of_______________________________________ 48

U.S. industries, protection for____________________________________ 29

Williams, G. Mennen:

Background in African affairs________________________________ 77

Biographical sketch_________________________________________ 74

Conflict-of-interest question__________________________________ 75

Educational background_____________________________________ 7G

Experience in government___________________________________ 76

Williams, Murat W.:

Biographical sketch_________________________________________ 1

Prior Foreign Service and State Department experience__________ 2, 3, 7

Youth Corps, feasibility of______________________________________ 97


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