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81-116 H.R. 6169—A BILL TO AMEND THEc_NATIONAI*

AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF-1958

GOVERNMENT

Storage

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON

SCIENCE AND ASTRONATTICS

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

APRIL 12, 1961

[No. 5]

Printed for the use of the Committee on Science and Astronautics

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

68246 WASHINGTON: 1901
COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS

OVERTON,pRocas

GEORGE P. MILLER, California

OLIN B. TEAGUE, Texas

VICTOR L. ANFUSO, New York

JOSEPH E. KARTH, Minnesota

KEN HECHLER, West Virginia

EMILIO Q. DADDARIO, Connecticut

WALTER H. MOELLER, Ohio

DAVID S. KING, Utah

THOMAS G. MORRIS, New Mexico

BOB CASEY, Texas

WILLIAM

JOHN W.

WILLIAM

JAMES C.

II

, Louisiana, Chairman

JOSEPH W. MARTIN, JR.,, Massachusetts

JAMES G. FULTON, Pennsylvania

J. EDGAR CHENOWETH, Colorado

WILLIAM K. VAN PELT, Wisconsin

PERKINS BASS, New Hampshire

R. WALTER RIEHLMAN, New York

JESSICA MeC. WEIS, New York

CHARLES A. MOSHER, Ohio

RICHARD L. ROUDEBUSH, Indiana

ALPHONZO E. BELL, JR., California

J. RANDALL, Missouri

DAVIS, Georgia

F. RYAN, New York

CORMAN, California

CHARLES F. DUCANDER, Executive Director and Chief Counsel

Dr. CHARLES S. SHELDON II, Technical Director

SPENCER M. BERESFORD, Special COU/i8e/

PHILIP B. YEAGER, Special Consultant

JOHN A. CARSTARPHEN, Jr., Chief Clerk

FRANK R. HAMMILL, Jr.,, Counsel

RAYMOND WILCOVE, Staff Consultant

RICHARD P. HINES, Staff COnertatant

C. OTIS FINCH, Assistant Clerk

Capt. HOWARD J. SILBERSTEIN, U.S.N., Staff Consultant

•
CONTENTS

Page

Statement of Dr. Edward C. Welsh, Executive Secretary, National

Aeronautics and Space Council 2

II(

H.R. 6169-A BILL TO AMEND THE NATIONAL

AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 12, 1961

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMIYILE ON SCIENCE AND ASTRONAUTICS,

ashing ton, D.0 .

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 a.m., in room

214—B, New House Office Building, Hon. Overton Brooks (chairman),

presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

Since we adjourned yesterday afteroon, much has occurred in the

way of developments in space. Members have, I am sure, the early

releases in reference to the Russian accomplishment of a man in space.

You have ma-de your own judgments, I am sure about it.

This morning we are very fortunate to have before us Dr. Edward

C. Welsh, Executive Secretary of the National Aeronautics and Space

Council, a man who must of necessity be in the middle of this pro-

°Tam now and in the future.

I would say, Dr. Welsh, this is your first appearance here, and the

committee formally and enthusiastically welcomes you.

Dr. WELSH. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Before we hear from Dr. Welsh, I would like to

request, without objection, that there be copied into the record the

President's letter of April 10, 1961, transmitting to the Speaker of

the House of Representatives the bill relating to the National Aeronautics and Space Council and recommending its enactment.

APRIL 10, 1961.

HOD. SAM RAYBURN,

Speaker of the House of Representatives,

Washington, D.C.

DEAR Ma. SPEAKER: I transmit herewith, for the consideration of the Congress, a draft of a bill relating to the National Aeronautics and Space Council.

I contemplate making the Council an active and useful instrumentality. To

achieve that end it is necessary, in my view, to amend existing law providing

for the Council.

As you know, it is .now the duty of the President to preside over meetings

of the Council. As had been previously announced, I desire to place the

Council under the chairmanship of the Vice President. The primary effect of

the attached amendatory bill, if enacted, will be to make that possible.

I believe that the Vice President can contribute importantly to, and give

me valuable counsel and assistance with respect to, space programs, and that

the chairmanship of the National Aeronautics Space Council will materially

enhance his opportunity and capability to render maximum service.

I therefore recommend that the Congress enact legislation along the lines

of the attached draft bill.

Sincerely,

JOHN F. KENNEDY.
2 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

(H.R. 6169 is as follows:)

[H.R. 6169, 87th Cong.,, 1st sess.]

A BILL To amend section 201 of the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States

of America in Congress assembled, That (a) subsections (a), (b), (c), {d), and

(e) of section 201 of the National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (42 U.S.C.

2471) are amended to read as follows; •

"(a) There is hereby established, in the Executive Office of the President, the

National Aeronautics and Space Council (hereinfater called the "Council") which

shall be composed of—

"(1) the Vice President, who shall be Chairman of the Council;

"(2) the Secretary of State;

" (3 ) the Secretary of Defense;

"(4) the Administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration; and

. (5) the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission.

"(b) The President shall from time to time designate one of the members of

the Council to preside over meetings of the Council during the absence, disability,

or unavailability of the Chairman.

"(c) Each member of the Council may designate another officer of his department or agency to serve on the Council as his alternate in his unavoidable

absence.

" (d) Each alternate member designated under subsection (c) of this section

shall be designated to serve as such by and with the advice and consent of the

Senate unless at the time of his designation he holds an office in the Federal

Government to which he was appointed by and with the advice and consent of

the Senate.

"(e) It shall be the function of the Council to advise and assist the President,

as he may request, with respect to the performance of functions in the aeronautics and space field, including the following functions:

"(1) survey all significant aeronautical and space activities, including the

policies, plans, programs, and accomplishments of all departments and

agencies of the United States engaged in such activities;

"(2) develop a comprehensive program of aeronautical and space activities to be conducted by departments and agencies of the United States;

" (3) designate and fix responsibility for the direction of major aeronautical and space activities;

"(4) provide for effective cooperation among all departments and agencies

of the United States engaged in aeronautical and space activities, and

specify, in any case in which primary responsibility for any category of

aeronautical and space activities has been assigned to any department or

agency, which of those activities may be carried on concurrently by other

departments or agencies; and

"(5) resolve differences arising among departments and agencies of the

United States with respect to aeronautical and space activities under this

Act, including differences as to whether a particular project is an aeronautical and space activity."

(b) Subsection (g) of the paid section 201 is hereby repealed.

The CHAIRMAN. At the same time prior to taking up the bill, I

would think that perhaps you would have some comment to make

in reference to the Russian claim for having placed a man in space.

STATEMENT OF EDWARD C. WELSH, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY,

NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE COUNCIL

• Dr. WELSH. I wouldn't have anything to add to what you already

know, Mr. Chairman. You said before this hearing that you were

woke up about 3 o'clock this morning to receive some information,

and so was I. So each of us missed that much sleep.

The CHAIRMAN. Have we any more recent developments in reference to the Russian claim?
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 3

Dr. WELSH. None, other than the fact that 'there have been published some specifications of the perigee and the apogee of the orbit

and the length of time it took. Those things are already out to the

press, I believe. It is a significant achievement. I think we would

be wrong to minimize it.

I think we would also be wrong to overstate or exaggerate its importance. Certainly, however, it should give us a stimulus to, if we

need it, move ahead on our own programs.

The CHAIRMAN. Do we have anything more about the condition

of the astronaut, the Russian astronaut who was returned?

Dr. WELSH. You have to judge these things on what you get from

Moscow. The latest I heard was that the astronaut himself had made

a statement and indicated he felt pretty well.

The CHAIRMAN. He is audible, anyway. What effect would you

say that this achievement would have upon our own people and our

own program?

Dr. WELSH. I would think it would give even greater public support to efforts to stimulate and accelerate our own programs. I don't

imagine it would have any immediate effect on our schedules of shots.

I think those schedules will have to proceed as they are. Our first

anticipated shot, as you know, is one to put man in a ballistic arc

rather than an earth orbit.

The CHAIRMAN. That is within a few weeks?

Dr. WELSH. That is the anticipation. You have already had some

testimony on that.

The CHAIRMAN. We have had some testimony on that. When you

say "a feeling of giving us a greater sense of urgency about the program," is that a financial urgency or an operational urgency?

Dr. WELSH. It might be both. The President, as you know, and

I know you have been considering it, had indicated the necessity of

stepping up the large booster program particularly. He made a policy

decision to do that when he recommended to the Congress some additional money, a major portion of that money dealt with the question

of increasing our capability on the large booster.

It is in that area where we have the relative deficiency.

The CHAIRMAN. I know you are not here to testify on this subject,

but would you think this achievement, which everybody must confess

has been, up to this hour, beyond the capacity of our own people to

accomplish, should mean maybe an around-the-clock program for

space development in the United States?

Dr. WELSH. You used the term "around the clock." I certainly

wouldn't want to translate that into what one would call a crash

program in that we rush off in all directions.

The CHAIRMAN. A crash program, but not half shot.

Dr. WELSH. I would agree with you on that "half shot."

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. King.

Mr. KING. First of all, it has been said, and circulated rather

widely, that the Russians' progress or the Russians' superiority I

should say, over the United States is strictly in the matter of the

strength of their booster, the size of their booster; admittedly they

are ahead of us in that, but in other areas we are equal or superior

to the Russians.

My observation is, and I would like to have ,.yrnedi9TrE it,

wouldn't this latest feat of the Russians su q_st" their 

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4 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

over us is in fields other than, or in addition to, the superiority in

the strength of their booster? Doesn't this suggest a very advanced

technology in many other areas besides being able to get a big, heavy

booster up in the sky?

Dr. WELSH. I think it suggests advanced technology. I don't

think it necessarily suggests a technology further advanced than we

have.

Mr. KING. Apparently our technology right now is not enough to

get a man up, even apart from the matter of the size of the booster,

because we have a booster that is big enough to get him up, but we

still don't have him up.

Dr. WELSH. I wouldn't want to second-guess or seem to have some

special information, but I do know the Russians tend to attach a

little less significance to what happens to an individual when they

send him anyplace. So they might not have needed to run through

some of the tests that we think are necessary.

The test that we plan to make is as I said, a ballistic-type shot

first. They jumped over that test. There is some advantage in geting the net results on a human being from that type of test before

you do put him into orbit. They leapfrogged that particular effort.

Why they did, I don't know. But one reason might be that they

are willing to take more risks with human payloads.

Mr. KING. You are saying then if we were not as solicitous for the

value of human- life and if we were willing to take chances, that we

might be able to duplicate what they have done right now?

Dr. WELSH. I would answer you only by saying that we might

have tried.

Mr. KING. With at least a possibility of success?

Dr. WEIR'. Just as they might have tried before and had failures

or have failures in the future. This is not automatic, as you know.

Mr. KING. Is there anything to indicate whether their booster

used solid fuel or liquid fuel, or was there any information at all on

that?

Dr. WELSH. I don't have any precise information. Most of their

shots—they haven't made a great number, not nearly as many as we

have—are presumed to be with the boosters that they developed for

military purposes. I believe that those are not solid fuels.

Mr. KING. They are liquid as far as you know?

Mr. RIEHLMAN. The only comment I would like to make is this:

I had the privilege this morning to hear the Administrator of NASA

speak on television. I want to commend him for the manner in which

he addressed himself to this problem facing our Nation, and that he

did not go off on a tangent, in a radical position, that this is something we have to go into a crash program to meet. I commend him

for it, the sincere and constructive approach that he made to this problem in respect to the American people which I think is commendable.

Dr. WELSH. I am sure he would appreciate that. Every contact

I have had with him bears out what you say.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. He did cover the whole phase of our program.

There were indications that in areas we probably can and should step

up our program. But it was not on a basis of feeling that just because they have gotten ahead of us in this one field of putting a man

into orbit that this is going to destroy our program. In other fields

and following out what our colleague, Mr. King, said, we are ahead
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 5

in many of the other scientific programs, ahead of Russia as far as we

know today.

In this one, we are behind. Theirs is a great accomplishment and

no one wants to take it away from the Russian people. I refer to

the manner in which this problem was approached and the presentation to the American people who certainly are interested in the U.S.

position in the program.

Mr. MILLER. I want to commend the gentleman for what he has

said. As far as my own thinking on the matter is concerned, I am

only one member of the committee, I think we are justified in proceeding with celerity but not trying to get into competition on this

thing, and if by moving more slowly we can protect the lives of our

astronauts and bring them back without having to go into emotional

stress, we are more than justified in taking our time and doing a

thorough job rather than just trying to be in competition.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. I think that is about what the Administrator was

saying in substance, plus the fact that he feels we are in a broader field

of exploration of space which will bring greater results than just the

fact that we have put a min into orbit.

The CHAIRMAN. I heard the part, most of the Administrator's statement. I haven't read any radical statements over television or radio.

I think thus far those who have commented have been rather realistic in their comments. There are many, it seems to me, goals yet

ahead of us. My fear is that in coming in second best on this manin-space program we will continue to be second best in the future.

I think that America ought to get to the forefront in future goals.

We have such things as landing a man on the moon and sending the

space vessel around the moon, and all those things that we ought to

be the first ones there. We ought to make a determination that they

are going to be first in the future, if we continue our space program.

Mr. HECHLER. I would like to associate myself with the fine remarks

of my colleague, Mr. Riehlman. I too heard the Administrator this

morning. I think Mr. Riehlman summarized very clearly his position,

which was that we should not get hysterical but still have a sense of

urgency about the current program which we are carrying on, and

carry through on a solid basis. I would just like to say that Mr.

Riehlman expresses my sentiments precisely.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further comments?

Mr. FuLTorr. So that we shall not look as if we are fully agreeing,

I think the Administrator made an excellent statement, but I disagree

with it. I feel that we in the United States should publicly say we

are in a competitive race with Russia and accept the challenge in

science.

I am tired of coming in second best all the time by 30 days.

The second point is this: I would not only put a sense of urgency

on it, I would put a real sense of push, work the scientists around the

clock, and stop some of this WPA scientific business which I think is

developing in large degree—they put some experiments on and then

they don't know whether to quit the experiments.

When there are 1,200,000 experiments in a wind tunnel on one question of configuration

68246-61---2
6 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

Mr. MILLER. Inspection. The wind tunnels were about a half million.

Mr. FULTON. It runs into—that is a good comment

The CHAIRMAN. AS I remember it was 1,200,000 tests.

Mr. FULTON. Tests of configuration. I think they are - doing too

much. I think Mr. Miller used the word "nitpicking," or picking." I think we are getting to the point where if they are afraid, let

some of us go who don't mind the risk. If it is good enough for Ham,

and a chimpanzee can do it, why couldn't a man do it?

I am always laughed at, but I would go in a minute.

The CHAIRMAN. We will get you a one-way ticket there some time.

Mr. FULTON. The thing to do is get some space enthusiasts, as they

had when they were developing airplanes, who are willina

b

to take

certain risks. I am getting awfully tired of the Mother Hubbard

approach of "Tie your apron up after the Russians do it." All you

had to do was put a little overtime on and go around the clock on

some of these programs instead of knocking off at 5 o'clock. I think

we in the United States should stand the expense of it and put some

overtime in on this and pay for it.

The CHAIRMAN. Will the gentleman yield? I think we can put in

a second shift or third shift without the overtime.

Mr. FULTON. I would certainly do it right around the clock. I will

have to say I am darn well tired of coming in second. The other point

is this: If there is competition in space, and Russia keeps saying she

is in a competition, a peaceful competition, it is certainly being walleyed, to say the least, not to look the situation in the face and accept

the challenge.

When we are coming in second all the time—and it is being shown

around the world that we are able to do it, but always just 30 days

late—I would like to make up 60 days and leapfrog Russia. I may

sound the urgent note, but I do, and I have said all the way through—

I have been interested in space 7 or 8 years—get going on it and do it

on a broad front.

Spend the money that is necessary and let's be preeminent in science.

I think you can win all the international conferences in the world and

you lose one on man-in-space such as we did yesterday, you are rated

a second-rate power whether you like it or not. The worst of it is in the

field of science where the United States has been preeminent.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further comments 

Mr. MILLER. I would like to say off the record, Mr. Chairman.

(Discussion off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. We have a very distinguished witness here 

Mr. HECHLER. Nothing that Mr. Riehlman or I said showed lack of

recognition of a need for a sense of urgency. I just wanted to add that

to the record.

The CHAIRMAN. I think the gentleman is correct. I think the committee feels a need and a ense of urgency.

This morning we are fortunate to have Dr. Welsh here. He has a

prepared statement. You have a copy of H.R. 6169 which I introduced

at the request of the speaker. Doctor, if you will proceed with your

statement we will appreciate it.

Dr. WELSH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This is my first appearance before the Congress in my present position and I consider it a particular privilege that this initial effort be
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 7

before this committee. I shall take but a few minutes of your time to

outline briefly the major points in the bill before you.

As you know, Congress developed and passed the National Aeronautics and Space Act in 1958. Among the important provisions of

that statute was the establishment of a National Aeronautics and

Space Council. The bill under consideration deals only with that

Council.

The President has made it clear that he plans to carry out the congressional intent and make the Council, as he has expressed it, "an

active and useful instrumentality."

The present statute (Public Law 85-568) gives the Council the function of advising the President in five broad areas involving aeronautical and space activities. Those are listed specifically in the law.

These responsibilities cover both the civilian and military aspects of

this increasingly significant subject.

The bill before you proposes to change neither the advisory character of the Council nor the nature of its functions. Rather, it proposes to make the Council more effective.

The main feature of the 'bill is emphasized in the President's letter

of transmittal:

As you know, it is now the duty of the President to preside over meetings of

the Council. As has been previously announced, I desire to place the Council

under the chairmanship of the Vice President. * * * I believe that the Vice

President can contribute importantly to, and give me valuable counsel and

assistance with respect to space programs, and that the chairmanship of the

National Aeronautics and Space Council will materially enhance his opportunity and capability to render maximum service.

The bill therefore proposes to replace the President with the Vice

President, as Chairman of the Council.

The Council is an advisory, not an operating or executive body in

the clear meaning of those terms. The President wants continuous

and effective leadership in this advisory group. In the Vice President he has this asset, free from the special interests which might

attend anyone who also has executive or operating responsibilities in

a department or agency of the Government.

The Vice President is already by statute a member of the National

Security Council. To make him a member of the Space Council

seems to be a comparable action with suitable precedence. For the

Vice President to be chairman of an advisory council does not, in my

judgment, raise any more question than does the fact of his

membership.

The present law specifically identifies five members of the Council.

With the exception of the recommended change as respects the President and the Vice President, the proposed bill would retain the same

specified membership, that is, the Secretary of State the Secretary

of Defense, the Administrator of the NASA, and the 

State,

of the

AEC.

In addition to the specified membership, the present law permits

the -President to appoint "not more than three public members" and

not more than one member from departments .and agencies of the

Federal Government."

To give greater flexibility to this advisory council, it was considered sound to eliminate the option to appoint additional members.

To choose a small number of outstanding individuals from the many
8 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

able and deserving members of the public who might have substantial

contributions to make and to choose one from the large number of

Federal agencies, which will have from time to time substantial

interest in particular aspects of the programs, would not only be difficult but would diminish the desired flexibility of the Council.

Several additional points might be made in support of this proposal:

(1) To defer Council meetings until public members could attend

from various places in the United States would make emergency meetings of the Council somewhat impractical; (2) to make recommendations to the President as respects specific functions and responsibilities

among the several agencies of the Government should come from

those with a continuous day-to-day knowledge of what is being done

and who can best do what; (3) to call in consultants or responsible

representatives from Government agencies at the time when specific

problems within their competence arise is preferable to freezing the

Council membership with individuals representing just a few areas

of specialization.

Judicious and objective consultation with scientists, management

specialists, legal authorities, et cetera, within the Government avoids

the creation of another layer of advisers, without inhibiting the

Council from calling upon such specialists as needed.

This bill provides two other changes which are, in a sense, procedural. Subsection (b) provides language so that the President may

appoint an Acting Chairman in case the Vice President is not available.

The bill also proposes to clarify the organizational status of the

Council by placing it in the Executive Office of the President. This

follows the pattern which the Congress approved in the past as respects the National Security Council, the Bureau of the Budget, and

the Council of Economic Advisers. In the present status the Space

Council has been left in an indefinite position, and it seems to be

organizationally clearer and certainly appropriate for the Council to

be identified as a part of the Executive Office of the President.

I conclude this statement on the point that the President wants to

be kept fully informed and objectively advised of all important matters in the aeronautics and space field and believes the Council is an.

appropriate orga 11ization 61 for that purpose and that the Vice President is the man to ake it work effectively.

Thank you, Mr. airman, for the opportunity to make this short

statement. I hope it will be helpful.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, I don't know if you are a lawyer, but certainly you have had legal counsel since you have gone into the matter

and have presented to us this bill. I want to raise a constitutional

question of our authority to give to the Vice President of the United

States a job which the Constitution might not give him.

Dr. WELSH. Do you want me to comment, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to have your comment on that.

Dr. WELSH. I did allude to this in my brief statement, as to the

precedent that has already been established by statute, to make-the

Vice President a member of the National Security Council. So you

do have a real precedent which has been examined by the Congress.

The CHAIRMAN. We would like to have a little more than just a

precedent. Do we have any legal opinion to back us up?
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 9

Dr. WELSH. We did obtain before sending this to you an informal

opinion from the Department of Justice on the matter.

The CHAIRMAN. You have the Justice Department support of that?

Dr. WELSH. Yes. I don't have a written statement on that. We

checked with them and they provided us with the opinion that they

had no question about the propriety or legality of having the Vice

President as Chairman of the Council. The point on which I think

they pegged their opinion was that it is an advisory council, an advisory council to the President. The President is not asking the Vice

President to take over and operate an agency of the Government to

perform executive functions. The President, of course, is always in a

position to take the Council's advice or not to take it or to take such

portion of it as he finds suitable. The Vice President would therefore be a member and chairman of an advisory council.

The fact that he would be the Chairman seems to me not to have

anything to do with the question of the constitutionality or legality

of the proposed action.

The CHAIRMAN. Doesn't the Vice President have some executive authority? Isn't he for some-purposes a part of the executive branch?

Dr. WELSH. Without attempting to examine all the responsibilities

of the Vice President, I want to say in this specific instance this responsibility would be advisory and not in a real sense executive.

The CHAIRMAN. You would have no objection to furnishing for

the record a copy of the opinion of the Attorney General on that

point?

Dr. WELSH. I would be pleased to supply that.

(Material referred to will be incorporated in the committee files.)

The CHAIRMAN. I want to ask another question here about the elimination of the non-Government members from the Space Council.

Why was that done and what is your justification for that?

Dr. WELSH. I did refer to that briefly in the statement. As I am

sure you know, when the law itself was prepared, it specified five

heads of agencies that, because of their major responsibilities in the

field, should be identified on the Council. Others were not identified.

It wasn't clear as to what other members of the Government—I am.

touching on two aspects of this—what other members of the Government should be on the Council. If it was difficult to identify what

other members of the Federal Government should be on the Council

in 958, it would be even more difficult to do so today with the increased interests of more agencies within the Government. As far as

the public members are concerned, there are so many able people

that might well be brought in on a council. As a, matter of fact, I

would imagine each one of you gentlemen would have in your district

one or more deserving persons who might well add weight to the

Council. To choose from this number of individuals seems to me

would be to exclude many deserving persons and might get areas of

specialization which would be important to the Council at a given

point of time, but would not be important to the Council on another

matter that might come up.

I think therefore it would be better to give the Council the flexibility of bringing in these able persons and get their full advice and

assistance whenever needed rather than to specialize and bring in one

individual or two individuals or three individuals who are influenced
10 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

by their own background and points of view and who would be frozen

on the Council.

The CHAIRMAN. You said in your statement that this Council

should be a part of the Executive Office of the President. Should we

write into law some specification concerning the staff of the Space

Council?

Dr. WELSH. Mr. Chairman, I believe it is in the law that the Space

Council is to have its staff. It provides for the position that I hold

and also provides that additional members be added to assist in the

work of the Council. I don't believe there need be a change there, sir,

because a staff is provided for.

The CHAIRMAN. It provides that a competent, topflight staff should

be provided. What have you in mind for a topflight staff for the

Space Council?

Dr. WELSH. I can comment this way to you, sir: First of all, we

expect the staff to be small. We prefer to have a small staff of high

quality rather than to build a big organization. Second, I don't anticipate that we would be wanting to duplicate with scientists and specialists such as are readily available for consultation in NASA, in the

Department of Defense, in the Atomic Energy Commission, and with

the scientific adviser to the President.

We don't want to have them telling the Council precisely what is

to be done or what view to take, but by weighing the scientific information and advice from this wide range of competent individuals,

we believe it would be unnecessary to establish another level of such

scarce persons on the staff.

The CHAIRMAN. I have been asked to ask you, since you say the

staff should be small, how small do you think it should be?

Dr. WELSH. Right now it is too small. I am it. I have found the

unusual situation of a Space Council where neither was there space

for operations nor anything in operation.

The CHAIRMAN. Neither space nor council?

Dr. WELSH. Neither space nor council. As for size of staff, I

wouldn't want to be too specific. I already have a stack of applications several feet high. If I started naming a number of just how

many there would be on the staff, there would be even more applications

perhaps. I would think if we could get in the neighborhood of 10 to

a dozen topflight people, as far as professional people are concerned,

we would have something near requirements.

The CHAIRMAN. Some of these jobs will pay $19,000 a year which is

pretty good pay for the Government. I don't suppose you are going

over to the Senate side to get all the staff members.

Dr. WELSH. I assure you if I had that in mind earlier this morning

I don't have it in mind now. I didn't have it in mind then either.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions? Mr. Fulton.

Mr. FULTON. I yield.

The CHAIRMAN. You are next. If you are going to have any questions, get them in now.

Mr. FULTON. The problem comes up on the Space Council of having

people on it who understand space. If you look you find the Vice

President has been a Senator and has a legislative background on

space. The Secretary of State Mr. Rusk, has no experience in space.

The Secretary of Defense, Mr. McNamara, has no experience in space.

The Administrator of the• National Aeronautics and Space Admin-
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 11

istration, a fine man, Mr. James Webb, has no experience in space.

And the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, Dr. Seaborg,

has no experience in space.

I notice that the scientific adviser to the President is left out of the

Space Council. Might I ask why?

Dr. WELSH. This was, of course, the judgment of the Congress.

I am in accord with that judgment, sir. Because the scientific adviser

to the President is right there available for advice at any time directly

to the President or to the Council. To make him a member would

just seem to me to be adding another title that he would have without

changing in any sense his availability or his role.

Mr. FULTON. Should we make the scientific adviser to the President also the adviser to the Space Council?

Dr. WELSH. In a sense he is that to the extent that the Space Council is adviser to the President and so is the scientific adviser, adviser

to the President. So right there the advice leads to the same spot,

the President of the United States. I don't think it is necessary to

change that.

Mr. FULTON. I feel there should be people who are actively working on space programs on the Space Council. I have prepared an

amendment that I will submit for the record. But it specifically

adds to the Space Council the Deputy Administrator of the National

Aeronautics and Space Administrator, Dr. Dryden 

Dr. WELSH. He is a very able. individual.

Mr. FULTON. He actually has the responsibility for the policy and

programs. Then I would likewise add the Associate Administrator

of the NASA, Dr. Seamans, who has the responsibility for operations,

administering, and carrying out the programs.

Likewise I would add the Director of Defense Research and Engineering in the Department of Defense, who has a tremendous responsibility. Dr. Brown is the new one, who has just succeeded to the

position. I feel that he would give you an immense practical approach that you otherwise lack, having just top policy people who

simply take time out from their regular jobs to move over into space,

which is alien to them in large part. •

Then in addition I would put on the commander of the Air Force

Systems Command, General Schriever, who has been given tremendous

responsibilities in the Air Force in space. Those people are competent, tremendously experienced and they would add a very practical approach to the Space Council—which presently looks to me as

if it is just a little bit lofty for practical use to the President.

I am going to put the amendment, and if you care 

The CHAIRMAN. Would the gentleman yield?

Would you think the head of the National Science Foundation ought

to be in there, too?

Mr. FULTON. It may be an idea. But the point I am making is, it

is a matter of judgment how far to go, that we need some practical

people working in the space field on this Space Council advising the

President. The Administrator, James Webb's position will be largely

administration, which he is good at. I do feel that we should have

the ones that have a more direct responsibility, such as Dr. Dryden

and Dr. Seamans. One other point I would like to make and then

I am through.
12 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

I believe there should be a limit set on the staff that can be employed

by the Space Council because at present, under the Statute, there is

the Executive Secretary, and then in addition the three employees that

will get $19,000 a year. I see no limit, though, under the act on the

number of civil service employees that can be employed and paid as

high as GS-18, $17,500 a year. What limit would you have us put in

case you were asked to make such a recommendation? How many employees would you like as an outside figure, giving yourself some leeway?

Dr. WELSH. Since you ask my view, rather than have written directly into the statute, the exact number of people, because problems

may change 

Mr. FurrroN. Approximately.

Dr. WELSH. The problems may change and the work may increase,

just as it might lessen as far as the necessity of staff is concerned.

Whenever you write an exact figure in it is difficult to hire less than

that. I might add that each time the Congress, each time an appropriation comes up for this Council staff, the Congress has an opportunity to work its judgment on how many and how much money should

be paid for personnel, and that certainly limits the number. Each

year you have that opportunity.

Mr. FULTON. That is the Appropriations Committee and this is

the authorizing committee. We each have coequal jurisdiction. And

unless we have an opinion from you, I am putting in an amendment

limiting it probably to 15 employees, in addition to the 4 provided by

statute. Would this 15 suit you?

Dr. WELSH. Fifteen, if that includes clerical, I think might be a

little small.

Mr. FurToisr. In about what range, what area of reference would

you recommend to us to set up such a limiting figure?

Dr. WELSH. Well, I couldn't recommend to you setting a figure.

Mr. FULTON. I am really exploring with you about your approximate number that you feel will give you some room to work in. I

don't want to limit you too much, but I want a budgetary limit

on it.

Dr. WELSH. I have just gotten into examining the needs and going

through the exercise of trying to work up a budget. So I have had to

think in terms of numbers of people. Approximately 20 people would

fit the type planning that I have been talking about.

Mr. FULTON. How many of those would you have in the GS-16 or

above class?

Dr. WELSH. I have not broken that down, sir. This depends a little bit on what quality is available at what price. Sometimes it is

difficult to get the best people unless you have a little flexibility on

the grades that you can use.

I would suggest to you that setting the number at each grade would 

handicap one in getting some good people. It might force one to take

a lesser competent person sometimes.

Mr. FrruroN. In the general division of clerical as distinguished

from scientific or higher level civil service, how many people would

you estimate in that particular category?

Dr. WELSH. On clerical relative to the other? A ratio, something

of a little better than 2 to 1.
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 13

Mr. FULTON. So that of the 20 people that you might put in, it

would possibly be about, maybe 12 or 14 clerical and the balance then

would be higher civil service?

Dr. WELSH. I had the ratio the other way, sir. There would be

lesser clerical I believe than topflight professional people.

Mr. FULTON. Would you estimate then about 8 to 10 clerical and 10

to 12 of the higher level?

Dr. WELSH. This gets closer to what I was discussing with you, sir.

Mr. FurffoN. These are approximate figures. I don't want to pin

you down exactly.

Dr. WELSH. Thank you, sir.

Mr. HECHLER. Mr. Welsh, I want to add my congratulations to your

appointment.

Dr. WELSH. Thank you, sir.

Mr. HECHLER. I have no purpose in asking this question I am going

to ask except merely to establish a record on it. You are familiar of

course, with the Joint Aeronautics and Astronautics Coordinating

Board that was set up between NASA and the Department of Defense.

Dr. WELSH. Yes, sir. I am confident we will be kept fully advised

on what is going on in that, sir.

Mr. HECHLER. I wonder if you would explore for a few minutes what

you conceive to be the relationship between the Space Council and

this Joint Board so far 'as their relative activities are concerned?

Dr. WELSH. Well only to say to you that the extent that problems

can be worked out between important agencies, the heads of which

are on the Council, the better it is. We would like to have as small a

number as necessary of these problems coming to the Council. If

they can work things out well and keep us informed so we will know

it is not inhibiting but actually smoothing out and coordinating the

work, this is fine. We would just be kept informed on it. I don't know

if that answers your question.

Mr. HECHLER. Not exactly. What I was getting at was a few more

specifications on the area of responsibility of these two bodies.

Dr. WELSH. The areas of responsibility as far as NASA is concerned and as far as Defense is concerned in general are fairly clear.

There are of course some overlapping problems in those areas. The

coordination would be between those two agencies. There are other

areas also, for coordination. For example, there are some important

matters that the State Department is involved in—international law

affecting space. There are many other areas involved that probably

would not come to the Joint Board. The specific responsibilities of

NASA as spelled out in the act and there are those of the Department

of Defense on the miiltary aspects. And this Board I think is to

help avoid overlapping and duplication.

And I think this is sometimes overlooked, to make sure there is no

omission of important things. We tend to talk about overlapping

and duplication and I think we should, but there are sometimes important things that nobody wants to do or doesn't think of doing

'

or

thinks the other fellow is doing. This is one of the purposes I believe of this Coordinating Board, to make sure there is not duplication and not omission.

Mr. HECHLER. Mr. Welsh, as soon as you get some of the staff that

you are contemplating, I wonder, if you would submit a memorandum
14 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

for the record simply detailing those Federal agencies and the problems that they will bring up in the space field that are to be coordinated by the Space Council?

Dr. WELSH. I will be glad to try to do that, sir.

Mr. HECHLER. That shouldn't be too difficult.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Van Pelt.

Mr. VAN PELT. No questions.

Mrs. WEIS. I would like to observe that I sat as a public member

on a similar Presidential Advisory Commission, and I agree heartily

with the proposed change whereby the Council would be made up of

experts who know and are most intimately associated with the problems and who can be gotten together quickly.

I certainly associate myself with Mr. Fulton in his suggestion that

the additions be made to this Council, because from my service on a

similar body of this kind, I think it would be far more effective.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mrs. Weis. 

Mr. KING. Dr. Welsh, in your preliminary colloquy before you got

down to your prepared statement you made the statement that the administration has made a major policy decision to step up our national

emphasis on the space program in general and that this decision was

evidenced by increasing the appropriation for various aspects of the

program.

In other words, we are going to spend more money and that is

evidence of an increased interest and emphasis on this program. That

I agree with and am heartily in accordance with that decision. I

would like to make this observation.

I don't think the emphasis has gone far enough. I think there are

certain areas in which the emphasis has been woefully inadequate. I

am referring specifically to the solid fuel propellant program. I

notice that in the budget as it is submitted to us now we see a figure in

the order of $68 million for restarch and development on liquid fuel

propellants. We see a figure in the order of $25 million for research

and development in nuclear propellant. We see a figure in the order

of $5 million for research and development on electrical systems, and

only $3 million for solid fuel.

So that the budgetary allocation to solid fuel is less than threetenths of 1 percent of our total budget of $1,200 million or thereabouts.

Yet the evidence that has been presented to this committee on many

occasions is that in the solid fuel propellant field we have perhaps the

best hope of leapfrogging the Russians in a rather dramatic and

immediate way and taking the lead.

I realize this is controversial, that the testimony is not completely

unanimous on this, and there is much to be said on both sides. At

least the evidence is here that in the solid fuel propellant field we at

least have a reasonable possibility that we may be able to leapfrog

the Russians rather dramatically.

It has been testified, for example, that within 36 months the solid

fuel propellant advocates could get into the air a missile, a booster

having a thrust of something in the order of 21 million pounds. And

yet the Project Nova which will not become operational for another

10 years, only talks about a thrust of 6 million pounds. I would like

the record to show my feeling. I feel this very strongly. I think if

we are sincere in what we are saying about putting emphasis on this
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 15

problem, and the events of the last 24 hours have underlined the need.

fo-r our putting emphasis on this, I think $3 million is a very unrealistic figure. I hope your Council will consider this very, very seriously and at least give the solid fuel propellants and any other system

which offers reasonable hope to leapfrog the Russians, that they be

given the consideration that I think they are due.

If you would like to comment on that—

Dr. WELSH. First of all, I am aware of a bill that you have in sir,

to add to the emphasis on this. I think it would be wrong and I know

it was not implied in anything that you suggested, to say solid propellants are the only way to do it. I think that was clear in your

statement. The measure of the money on solid propellants is not

exactly the evidence of how much attention is being given to them.

We are getting some advantages from the Minuteman and the Polaris

studies on solids and actually are going into the hardware stage there.

This is giving us information—an advantage that we don't ordinarily

get when we go into some new field.

But I am confiident that solid propellants are going to be an important element in propulsion, if we really make the full, balanced

effort that I think we should make.

Mr. KING. I am glad to hear you say that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fulton wants to associate himself with you on

that.

Mr. FULTON. May I join with Mr. King, because in the present fiscal

year only $3 million is set aside for research on solid propellants as

against $68 million for liquid propellants. I think this is a wide disproportion of emphasis. It goes much beyond simply the dollar

amount. I would like to join with Mr. King on emphasizing the

development of solid fuel propellants. It is a tremendous field.

Also, I wish it would be on a much broader base than it now is, with

many more companies joining, and many more people joining in the

development in this solid propellent field.

Dr. WELSH. This record is going to be very valuable to us.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. I want to concur in what Mr. King and Mr. Fulton

have said to some degree. I also want to associate myself with the

remarks made by the Secretary in this respect: that to me it would be

ridiculous to put this on a crash basis when we do have the Air Force

developing the Minuteman and we can certainly derive tremendous

information and assistance on solid fuels gathering the information

from that source.

If we, as far as NASA is concerned, start out on a program which to

some degree duplicates it and spend additional millions of dollars, I

am just not in favor of that. I think we must take advantage of every

bit of information that we have available, and then if we can inject

some additional funds and expand the program I am perfectly willing

to do it.

The CHAIRMAN. May I say to the gentleman the committee plans on

having one or more witnesses later on, on this subject. The question

in my mind is as to how valuable it is in the handling of this bill.

Mr. KARTH. Mr. Welsh, I would like to associate myself with the

remarks that were initiated on this subject by Mr. King. There are

some of us who feel strongly about this. While I can appreciate what

my colleague Mr. Riehlman said, I would like to point out too that in
16 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

addition to the $68 million you see that is being set aside for research

and development in the liquid propellent field, we are also investing

considerable sums of money in projects like the Atlas and other liquid

propellent boosters that are somewhat duplicative—as Mr. Riehlman

is pointing out and as you have pointed out, sir—as we are doing in

the solid propellent fields. When you add all these up the disproportion stays pretty static.

Dr. WELSH. Yes, sir; I see your point.

Mr. KARTH. In addition to this one area where I really believe we

can seriously think about leapfrogging the Russians, as was illustrated

by Mr. King, there is another area where we should give a greater

sense of urgency to and that is the 8-hour day, 40-hour week thing.

Some time back, perhaps a month or so, upon interrogation, one of

the people who testified before this committee did admit that we had

no shortage of technical people at this time, scientists, engineers, and

so on and so forth. That in 10 years we might face a shortage unless

we put greater emphasis on educational institutions and facilities, and

speed up our educational program.

But today we do not have this shortage. Therefore our lack or

urgency apparently is in the field of plumbing, if I may use the word.

We are just not doing the things that we have the technological

know-how to do because we are not putting enough working hours in

the so-called 24-hour day. In these two areas I think your Council,

if I may be so suggestive, might give great consideration. I might

say, Mr. Chairman, that I want to compliment Mr. Welsh for his first

time before this committee. You know, usually to be impressive somebody would submit a 25- to 30-page document. I think yours is excellent. It is brief, to the point. It covers everything. I want to

congratulate you. I think you have done an excellent job.

Dr. WELSH. Thank you. May I make one other comment to the

statement made. I believe we have been deficient in effort rather

than in resources to accomplish things. I think this is in a sense

what you have been saying.

Mr. KARTH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I have been requested to announce at this point

that the students that we have here with us this morning are from

Metairie Park, the Country Day School, that Mr. Bensabat and Mrs.

Stuart Voelker are in charge of the group. They are from Louisiana.

They 'represent Mr. Boggs district. We welcome you here, all of you

this morning.

Coming back to the bill, do you have any questions here

i 

?

Mr. CASEY. In view of Mr. Fulton's intention of submitting an

amendment to add additional members,. the thing that strikes my

mind in anticipation of the schedule of hs proposed amendments, the

purpose of the Council it seems to me doesn't merit, at first blush,

the addition of these additional persons that Mr. Fulton is suggesting.

In the first place, this is, as I understand it, an arm of the Executive.

It is a review council to keep the President advised as to where we

are going and what we are doing. It is also a critical board in some

respects, in view of item No. 5 as to its purpose, which states:

Resolve differences arising among departments and agencies of the United

States with resuect to aeronautical and space activities.
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 17

I think I can well see where it would be critical to the extent, by

the prior four items that are listed, of some of the various departments that Mr. Fulton proposes to have represented on the Council

itself.

In my opinion, if we are going to keep this an executive council,

I don't think that it is necessary to put these various persons on here

that Mr. Fulton is speaking of, because they are going to be available

to the Council, they are to report to the Council, so that they can pass

on the information to the President.

I just question whether or not we might not kill the real fUnction

of the Council to place all these various people on there.

Dr. WELSH. There is much advantage VI having the Council small

and having it represent the areas that have the major and continuous

interest in space. I think you did make the excellent point that I

would like to underline, sir, and that is the availability of these other

people is just as great as a call from the President or a call from the

Council needs to make it. The need for technical competence is also

a point that was brought up. I have noted so far although I don't

want to predict what the Administrator of NASA will do, that every

time he appeared on any of these problems he had Dr. Dryden available for the technical knowledge and broad experience which he has.

I just add that as illustrative.

Mr. CASEY. We have been told here, in regard to those who are

actually engaged in the mechanics an technical development, that

they get together and they have their councils, they have their meetings, to benefit from the research and the developments that each arm

is doing, and also to coordinate their activities. If we are going to

have this as an executive council to advise the President and to be a

critical council of these activities, I think we might be defeating the

purpose if we put these very people that they are supposed to ride

herd on on this Council.

Mr. FuvroN. My idea is that a Space Council should have on it

some people who know something about space. The Secretary of

State knows nothing about space. The Secretary of Defense knows

nothing about space. The Vice President has had legislative contact

with space, not in any program specifically.

So you have three people on the Council that are from the President's Cabinet meeting with simply the Administrator of NASA, Mr.

Webb, who has had no experience in space but is a good administrator,

and also with Dr. Seaborg, the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, who has had no experience in space but is a fine administrator

and a scientific person in the atomic energy field.

My point is if Dr. Dryden is always there as the witness has testified,

why not put him on the Council, because he certainly knows as much

about aeronautics and space—he has had such experience as the Chairman of the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics for many

years. My point is when you have competent people who are available

and whose judgment should be made part of the policymaking decision, you shouldn't pass over them—people like General Schriever

or Dr. Brown, the new head of the Defense Research and Engineering,

Department of Defense.

I think they are much more high level than my good friend, Mr.

Casey has been intimating in his point. These are high-level people.
18 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

Dr. WELSH. They are exceedingly competent persons. If the people

who head these agencies are good administrators, as you suggest,

and I believe they are, they would bring the best people or get the

advice of the best people before they make a decision.

Mr. CASEY. I was not casting any aspersions on the ability or high

dedication or the caliber of the men that you suggest. I 'agree with

you. They are top men. .But by the same token we can put them on

so many councils that they will not get the work done that we want

done. Also, you are going to have a technical staff that is going to

advise. This group is not in my opinion supposed to pick out exactly

every little detail of what the program is supposed to be but it is

a policymaking group with a broad executive direction. It is supposed to give direction and supposed to coordinate. I think that it

can do that very easily without these topmen that you are suggesting.

Mr. MILLER. If you are going to put General Schriever on there,

whom we all have great respect and regard for, shouldn't the Navy

say "and the person of Admiral Hayward," and you can go unlimited

then. I am certain that, as you are, that the Secretary of the Army, the

Secretary of Defense is going to call in General Schriever or Admiral

Hayward or the rest of them when he needs their advice.

Dr. WELSH. Part of the plan that I had been trying to draw up

for a staff would include top-level people who would be in continuous

contact with these top persons that you have mentioned in the Department of Defense. Also, others for contact with the State Department,

which has an assistant to the Secretary, whose full time is on space

and nuclear matters. The top quality staff that I am trying to

assemble would be in continuous contact with those people.

Prior to the Council meeting we would always have the benefit of

their recommendations and suggestions through the Council staff

and then again through their principals when they appeared at

Council meetings. I think we would .get that two ways.

Mr. MILLER. Isn't it true that this Council would be a good deal

in the position of this committee. No one on this committee has any

competence in the field they are judging over. So we have to listen

to the members of our own staff whom we can ask to advise us and

to competent people like yourself or the others who have been mentioned who come before us.

• We are not scientists. We certainly haven't any competence. We

sit here by virtue of a little politics and nothing else.

Dr. WELSH. My silence there should not be interpreted as agreement.

Mr. MILLER. Your silence 

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair thinks the gentleman is a little out of

order on that.

Mr. MILLER. I am very factual about it anyway.

Mr. CASEY. I want to make one last statement for the record, Mr.

Chairman, that I think we should move very cautiously in expanding

this committee from what it has set up here in the bill because of the

purposes designated specifically there. And it is an arm of the

President. In other words, it is to do someting that he just can't

physically do himself.

I just believe that you would kill the real purpose of this committee,

this Council, if you added all of the top people that we have got engaged in this field to the Council.
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 19

Mr. RANDALL. Mr. Chairman, I first want to con„gratulate Mr.

Welsh and interject this word. I have known him for the short time

that I have been here, starting the second term of this service with

Senator Symington and the benefit that has been given to the Senate

Armed Services Committtee. I want to say the loss is to the Missouri

delegation, but the Nation gains. I know he is well qualified. He

has demonstrated that to us here this morning.

Mr. Welsh, at the top of page 4, along the lines of Mrs. Weis, the

comment that she was at one time a public member, I observe you

point out that you could call in consultants or responsible representatives from Government agencies. As a matter of fact, you can continue to have the right to call in these people who might otherwise be

on the committee, and you intend to do so; isn't that true?

Dr. WELSH. Yes sir. This is implied in this and intended to be so.

Mr. RANDALL. 'YOU will have the benefit of this advice. I might

observe that from about a dozen years' experience in local office, Mr.

Chairman, that many of these people, when they are members of a

committee that are called, just don't answer the call. You are going

to be in a position to have the benefit of their advice?

Dr. WELSH. Yes sir.

Mr. RANDALL. Along the lines of this 

The CHAIRMAN. Will the gentleman yield? I notice the original

act did not refer to these other offices, where it did cover the Secretary

of State, Defense, National Aeronautics and Space, and the Atomic

Energy Commission.

Mr. RANDALL. Along the lines of these consultants, if I get your

very fine statement right, you regard this as more or less a clearinghouse and along the lines of not actually adding to the committee.

You say "These men,': the ones proposed to be added by our colleague

Mr. Fulton, actually they will be available as consultants at all times;

isn't that true?

Dr. WELSH. This is our expectation. And I am sure it is true.

Mr. RANDALL. I want to thank you for your statement.

Mr. FULTON. Would you object to having Dr. Dryden as a member

of the Council, and Dr. Brown

'

his opposite number in the Department of Defense the head of Defense Research and Engineering?

Suppose we limited it to those two high-level men? Would you object to that?

Dr. WELSH. I wouldn't like to answer you in the form of an objection, sir. But, I don't believe it would be necessary inasmuch as those

individuals are not only available through their principals but the

principals are required to appoint alternates and some of those you

mention undoubtedly would be among those who would be considered as alternatives by their principals.

The CHAIRMAN. That is in line with my thinking now. You are

appointing this Space Council and you designate who they should

be. I think that is an excellent idea. You know before hand who

you are going to have. You know that they are people of prominence,

of influence, of ability, and are interested in the space program. On

the other hand you provide for the alternate there, and the only qualification you have for the alternate is that he must be approved by the

Senate. Wouldn't it be better to have the alternate designated by

the President?
20 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

Dr. WELSH. I think that is perfectly satisfactory either way. The

individual for whom the alternate would be appointed would obviously make his recommendation. I don't imagine the President would

want to appoint as an alternate for an individual someone whom the

individual didn't want.

The CHAIRMAN. After all the President is in control of the space

program ultimately.

Dr. WELSH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He would then be assured that a person of competence would be appointed there and that he would be more or less in

consonance with the general program of space, both military and

peaceful space.

Dr. WELSH. Yes, sir.

Mr. FULTON. That might be a good idea, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything further?

Mr. HECHLER. I realize the Council have enough problems without

throwing in another one. Here is something that has concerned me

in the light of the developments of the past 24 hours that I hope the

Council can perhaps help a little on. Early this morning there was

an NBC broadcast which indicated that in a sense this was a victory

• for one branch of our Government that Russia had put a man in space

because our intelligence agencies had confidently been able to predict

that this would happen. Yet before our committee yesterday morning

Dr. Dryden made what I regard as a highly unfortunate assessment.

I use that in understatement, "highly unfortunate" in sort of poopooing the idea that Russia could or would put a man into space as

merely conversations among taxicab drivers.

I think it would be useful, and I have always wondered why it

couldn't be done, to get the G-2 and the G-3 a, little closer together.

I hope the Space Council can accomplish it.

Mr. CORMAN. I want to associate myself with Mr. Casey's arguments because I think they are very persuasive. It seems to me the

personnel of this committee are not envisaged as being space experts.

I don't know the scientific acceptability of Parkinson's law, but I

think it is a good one. It has to do with the sizes of councils. I

am persuaded by the President's capacity to staff his councils. For

that reason I would support Mr. Casey.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Anfuso, we welcome you back. I heard you

were out in California.

Mr. ANFUSO. I was also in Haiti, trying to get a new tracking

station for our committee. Mr. Welsh, I like the idea of a Space

Council. In connection with what Dr. Hechler had to say I want

to say that on September 14, 1959, the Russians hit the moon. I was

a few days away from the Russia at that time, and I predicted that

they would do that.

Yesterday morning from New York at 9 o'clock in the morning

I said on the radio program in New York that they would do that.

I can't understand why some of our scientists don't recognize the

great advances which the Russians have made in this field and why,

as my good friend Dr. Hechler said, why they are not coordinated

with G-2, why there isn't sufficient intelligence for us before we make

any wild statements to be apprized of the correct situation of what

the Russians are capable of doing. I think that we have undersold
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 21

the Russians in this field for a long time. I have had the privilege

to talk to their top scientists in Russia.

I am convinced, as the members of my party were convinced, that

they have tremendous capability and all that is due to the fact that

they have been experimenting for a long time on a large booster.

We have advocated before this committee, ever since last year, that,

we do more with respect to a booster. I remember asking the question, the chairman will remember when I asked our Secretary of Defense Gates at that time why, when we went into this field in 1953,

why we didn't experiment on a large booster at the same time that

we were experimenting on the payload.

I think it is high time that we put all of our efforts on a large

booster. I understand that this morning some of my colleagues

have made some nice remarks concerning a solid fuel propellant.

I want to join my colleagues in that. I would like to have you bear

in mind that I visited the plant in California which has the capability

of a solid propellant. I-understand that in the budget only a small

amount is being put out for that very effort. I think that the Council

should recommend that more money be spent on a solid fuel propellant. I think that we should do all that we can to double all of our

efforts. Some of our scientists in NASA, and I am sorry to say this,

are still daydreaming. They are still talking of a 10-year program.

In all their public statements they say "We don't care what the Russians are doing."

I am sorry to say that Mr. Webb said that this morning on the

"Today" program: "We have a 10-year program and nothing in the

world is going to make us change from that 10-year program."

Unless we do something very imaginative, Mr. Welsh, America,

can be lost. America is too young to die. I think this 10-year program that they are talking about, I think the Council should come up

with an idea and say, "How can we cut this in half? How can you do

the things you say in 10 years, how can we do them in 5 years?" Do

we have to work double time? Do we have to do this or do that?

But let's find out whether the things which NASA is now planning,

for 10 years can be done in 5. I think that the security and the lifeblood of America would depend on that. We can't just wait on this

10-year-period program because if we carry out the things that they

say in 10 years the Lord knows where the Russians will be by then

and whether America will still be in existence.

Mr. DADDARIO. In reply to some of Mr. Karth's questions you said

the preliminaries of our accomplishments in space have been not because of lack of resources but because of lack of effort. This would

seem then we need to have more of a managerial control over our

resources as we direct our efforts toward greater accomplishments in

space. I wonder if you contemplate the use of the Space Council as

a management device as well as an advisory device?

Dr. WELSH. The answer would be "No," except to the extent that

giving advice does help management. We would not anticipate the

Council would in itself do any managing of other agencies.

I would also add, referring back to my previous testimony, about

resources and effort, that really what we have lacked to a degree has

been this necessary sense of urgency as as the question of management.
22 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

Mr. DADDARIO. I agree that there has been a lack of a sense of

urgency and very often called attention to the fact that there is not

sufficient urgency within our 10-year space program and have found

there has been a great deal of resistance to any such criticism on the

part of the members of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, many of whom I believe are very knowledgeable but who

seem to think we have all the time in the world to accomplish such

goals.

I cannot think that we can accomplish it unless there comes from

the top the sense of urgency which in the final aspects is a managerial

problem of better binding together our efforts, our resources, and

setting higher goals of achievement.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to ask you, I want to get back to the bill,

if I may, because the doctor won't be here much longer 

Mr. DADDARIO. I yield to Mr. Casey, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. We can finish up before noon, and we might consider the bill.

Mr. CASEY. I want to say that I think Mr. Daddario has very well

pegged it, that this will be in the form of a managerial council because it is going to report to the President. It is an arm of the President. The President is the head of all of this program. When they

see something lacking, they report to him. I think a fire could be built

under the various agencies if there is a lag. If there is a discord, they

are supposed to iron that out. It is specifically set out, between agencies. And it is specifically set out also that they designate and fix

responsibility for the direction of major aeronautical and space activities.

I think you are right. I think it would have quite a good deal of

a managerial aspect.

Dr. Cull. So there isn't any question about my testimony, I want

to make it clear we are not going to make any effort to take over and

manage NASA or manage the Department of Defense or some other

agency.

Mr. DADDARIO. Within this concept you would say it would have

such a managerial objective?

Dr. WELCH. I thought you made an excellent statement, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to ask you something about the bill that I

think is very important. There is no provision for funding here at

all, no authorization. You said that you would need probably about

25 or 30 employees, as I remember. Perhaps as many as 40. An appropriation of that sort, in your judgment, should it be under the

NASA appropriation, should it be under the Executive Office of the

President, or where would you recommend it be placed?

Dr. WELCH. It should be in the Executive Office of the President

and not under NASA. I believe, as a council across the board, it

should not be any one of the agencies.

The CHAIRMAN. Another thing: What amount should we set for

that? I don't think it should be in this bill, but I think it could very

well be placed in the authorization of NASA as a separate paragraph.

• Dr. WELSH. I am going to have to pass a little bit on that question

of amount. I have not had a chance yet to work it out and discuss it

with the people down in the Bureau of the Budget. And I don't have
AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958 23

worked out such expenses as supplies and things of that sort. They

also would be involved in a budget for the Council.

I would hope that as soon as we do have something worked out, if

it would be of interest to the chairman, I would like to keep you advised On it. Would that be satisfactory, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. I would say this, I believe it would be very unfortunate if you voted out this Council and then did not provide for the

staff and the staff had to be borrowed from some department of the

Government. It might then place the Council in a position of having

to lean too heavily upon the department of Government that furnishes

the staff.

I think that would be very unfortunate.

Dr. WELSH. I agree with you. The plan is for a separate budget

for it.

The CHAIRMAN. I think somewhere in the law we ought to write

in a provision for a certain authorization of funds. I don't think

that we should turn it over to the Appropriations to designate the

amount. I think wq ought ourselves make an authorization for a

certain amount and then at that time designate specifically what

department it would be charged to. Don't you agree with that?

Dr. WELSH. You didn't mean in this particular bill?

The CHAIRMAN. Not in this bill.

Mr. MILLER. If this goes into the Executive Office of the President,

it comes out of the general funds that are appropriated to him for

that Office?

Dr. WELSH. The amount for the Council staff would be specified

in the total request for the Executive Office.

Mr. MILLER. I am trying to get the thing on the road right now.

Mr. RYAN. I should like to raise this question. It concerns creating

an office of Chairman with the Vice President, the Chairman of this

Council. I know that the President has great confidence in the present Vice President. But I wonder whether it would not make more

sense structurally, to include, if you will, the Vice President as a

member of this Council, but leave the designation of the Chairman

to the President.

In other words, not legislate for the future that the Vice President

shall be Chairman of a Council, the purpose of which is to advise

and assist the President as he may request, according to the bill.

Dr. WELSH. This was the thing that we discussed at length, sir.

I appreciate your bringing it up. The intention of the President is

to identify the Vice President as Chairman. It seemed to me that

the cleanest and most clearcut way to do it was to come before the

Congress with it right in the bill, so that rather than do it indirectly

or by letter—that was the first point.

The second point is that we do have langauge in there which says

that if the Vice President is not available, the President would identify

someone else as Chairman. I think this is a flexible enough situation.

Mr. RYAN. My question goes more to the fundamental question of

whether in 1969 the President will want the Vice President to be

Chairman of a space council.

Dr. WELSH. I couldn't say—
24 AMENDING THE AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ACT OF 1958

Mr. ANFUSO. Are you anticipating there might be a change of

administration?

Mr. RYAN. I said in 1969.

Mr. ANFITso. I wouldn't worry about that.

The CHAIRMAN. Everybody understands that the Vice President

will be the Chairman of the Council.

Mr. ANruso. I think that we have debated this bill long enough.

We have had a very interesting session here. I move that we report

out H.R. 6169.

Mr. MILLER. I will move we go into executive session.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard the motion to go into executive

session. Before we do that I want to thank the doctor for a fine job

of coming here and testifying before our committee this morning.

On this particular morning the ground is all freshly plowed and not

harrowed out.

Dr. WELSH. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. We are happy to have you. The committee will

go into executive session.

(Whereupon, the committee proceeded in executive session.)

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