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[Senate Hearing 114-864]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                        S. Hrg. 114-864
 
                       WORK IN RETIREMENT: CAREER
                        REINVENTIONS AND THE NEW
                          RETIREMENT WORKSCAPE

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             WASHINGTON, DC

                               __________

                             JUNE 24, 2015

                               __________

                           Serial No. 114-08

         Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Aging
         
         
         
         
  [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]       
         
         

        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
        
        
        
        
                                ______
 
              U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 49-411 PDF            WASHINGTON : 2022 
        
        
        
        
                       SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON AGING

                   SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman

ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah                 CLAIRE McCASKILL, Missouri
MARK KIRK, Illinois                  BILL NELSON, Florida
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona                  ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania
TIM SCOTT, South Carolina            SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island
BOB CORKER, Tennessee                KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York
DEAN HELLER, Nevada                  RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut
TOM COTTON, Arkansas                 JOE DONNELLY, Indiana
DAVID PERDUE, Georgia                ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts
THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          TIM KAINE, Virginia
BEN SASSE, Nebraska
                              ----------                              
               Priscilla Hanley, Majority Staff Director
                 Derron Parks, Minority Staff Director
                 
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                                                                   Page

Opening Statement of Senator Susan M. Collins, Chairman..........     1
Opening Statement of Senator Claire McCaskill, Ranking Member....     2

                           PANEL OF WITNESSES

Sara E. Rix, Ph.D., Working and Aging Consultant, Washington, 
  D.C............................................................     4
Susan E. Nordman, Owner, Erda, Dexter, Maine.....................     6
Kerry Hannon, Contributing Editor, Forbes, Washington, D.C.......     8
James C. Godwin, Jr., Vice President of Human Resources, Bon 
  Secours Virginia Health System, Richmond, Virginia.............     9

                                APPENDIX
                      Prepared Witness Statements

Sara E. Rix, Ph.D., Working and Aging Consultant, Washington, 
  D.C............................................................    27
Susan E. Nordman, Owner, Erda, Dexter, Maine.....................    38
Kerry Hannon, Contributing Editor, Forbes, Washington, D.C.......    44
James C. Godwin, Jr., Vice President of Human Resources, Bon 
  Secours Virginia Health System, Richmond, Virginia.............    60

                       WORK IN RETIREMENT: CAREER

                        REINVENTIONS AND THE NEW

                          RETIREMENT WORKSCAPE

                              ----------                              

                        WEDNESDAY, JUNE 24, 2015

                                       U.S. Senate,
                                Special Committee on Aging,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:02 p.m., Room 
562, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Susan M. Collins, 
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
    Present: Senators Collins, Cotton, Sasse, McCaskill, Casey, 
Donnelly, Warren, and Kaine.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR 
                   SUSAN M. COLLINS, CHAIRMAN

    The Chairman. This hearing will come to order.
    Good afternoon. In the iconic 1985 film ``Back to the 
Future,'' Marty and Doc ride in a time machine 30 years back in 
time. They end up in 1955, the middle of the Baby Boom, where 
they save the past and then blast off again to an impossibly 
distant future, the year 2015. That film comes to mind as I 
think about the changes we are seeing in how seniors approach 
work in retirement, the topic of today's hearing.
    In many ways, the Baby Boom generation is leading us back 
to the future where seniors stay actively engaged in the 
workforce, contributing their years of wisdom and experience to 
employers and colleagues while shoring up their own financial 
security.
    For most of the past century, seniors have been withdrawing 
from the workforce as Americans came to view retirement as a 
time of uninterrupted rest and leisure that could last for 
decades. By the year 2000, only 32 percent of Americans aged 55 
and older were still working, and the average age of retirement 
had dropped to just 63, but the Baby Boom generation has 
reversed this trend. Today 40 percent of workers 55 and older 
remain in the workforce, a ratio not seen since the Eisenhower 
administration.
    The Baby Boomers are remaining in the workforce longer for 
many reasons, but one leading reason is the need for financial 
security. Many Americans today do not have the resources they 
need to live comfortably in retirement without working.
    It used to be said that retirement security was a three-
legged stool--the first leg being an employer-provided pension; 
the second, Social Security; and the third, retirement savings, 
but with the estimated $7.7 trillion gap between what Americans 
ages 32 to 64 have saved and what they will actually need for 
retirement, that third leg has become wobbly, and a fourth 
leg--continued work--has been added to the stool.
    Experts tell us that the reengagement of seniors in the 
workforce could not have come at a better time for our economy. 
According to human resources professionals, 40 percent of U.S. 
employers are struggling to fill jobs with qualified workers 
and could face a crisis if they lose their older workers, but 
employers do not need these workers just to fill positions. 
They also need their talent, their institutional knowledge, and 
especially their strong work ethic. Compared to younger 
employees, with all due respect to my staff, workers aged 55 
and older are significantly more engaged in their work. In 
fact, an engaged workforce is so important to the bottom line 
that a Fortune 1000 company could improve its profits by $150 
million a year if its entire workforce were as engaged as older 
workers, according to the AARP.
    As we will hear from our witnesses today, financial needs 
are not the only reason that Baby Boomers want to continue 
working. They also want to stay active, mentally and 
physically. Working also helps seniors stay socially connected 
and preserve a strong sense of purpose and self-worth.
    More than half in this generation who do retire return to 
the workforce after just a few years. They use this break to 
catch their breath and retool, sometimes for less stressful 
work, because these retirees can rely on Social Security, 
Medicare, and other sources of retirement income, they have the 
flexibility to pursue work on their own terms.
    Taking a break from the workforce is not without risk, 
however. Seniors may find that their skills have become out of 
date and that they have lost touch with key contacts and 
business trends. Some of them face unspoken and misguided bias 
that is difficult to prove but widely reported. Whatever the 
reason, it takes twice as long for a senior to find a new job 
than it does for a younger person, and the job hunt can be 
especially tough on workers laid off late in their careers.
    As this generation heads back to the workforce, employers 
who want to attract and keep older workers should recognize 
that many return to work because they want to, not just because 
they have to. These workers are looking for flexible workplaces 
where they can continue to contribute and where their skills 
will be valued.
    Our witnesses today have a wealth of knowledge on how 
attitudes toward work and retirement are changing today and 
what it means for employers and for older Americans. I very 
much look forward to their testimony today.
    I am now very pleased to turn to our Ranking Member, 
Senator McCaskill, for her statement.

                 OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR 
                CLAIRE McCASKILL, RANKING MEMBER

    Senator McCaskill. Thank you, Senator Collins. I want to 
thank you for holding this hearing.
    I am sad to say, from looking at the numbers, that it 
appears to me that most of us on this Committee would be deemed 
``older workers.'' The most recent AARP study defines an older 
worker as over 50--except for Tom Cotton.
    I can see him over there kind of----
    The Chairman. He is too young.
    Senator McCaskill. He is gloating, is what he is doing.
    The most recent AARP study defines an older worker as over 
50, so I will reluctantly confess to meeting that threshold, 
easily, but I think our own personal experiences can add a 
certain level of expertise to this conversation in terms of our 
capacity to grow and change over time.
    Many of us Baby Boomers are dealing with a much different 
work landscape than the one we entered decades back. Yet we are 
a competitive bunch, so I have trouble with this concept that 
we cannot adapt to changing technologies to stay relevant in 
today's economy, and that AARP study, ``A Business Case for 
Workers Age 50 and Above,'' goes a long way to debunk this 
myth, along with many others. More than nine in ten workers 
over 50 have a computer, tablet, or smartphone, and those 
numbers have been growing significantly in the last three years 
alone. Fewer than one in five of the seniors surveyed felt they 
had trouble keeping up with the technology needed to do their 
jobs, so do not tell me that you cannot teach an ``older'' dog 
new tricks, and do not tell me that older workers cost too 
much.
    Due to the shifts in our pension systems away from defined 
benefits, adding a worker over 50 is not that much different to 
a company's bottom line than adding younger workers, according 
to the AARP.
    The fact of the matter is our workforce is getting older. 
In under a decade, more than one in three workers will be older 
than 50. In Missouri today, more than one in five workers is 55 
and older. It is true some older workers want to stay employed 
to feel productive and challenged, but many other Americans, I 
hasten to say that I believe the majority of other Americans, 
are doing so out of necessity.
    This is a new era of retirement. Few people have that 
pension check for life and instead must set aside their own 
money for their golden years, and longer life spans mean we are 
talking about retirements that could last for decades, so it is 
no wonder why older Americans are a bit nervous to stop working 
altogether.
    The smart companies have already figured out the changing 
demographics and have developed ways to capitalize in the 
skills and experience that this large group of workers can 
bring to the table. One of those companies is represented here 
today, and I do not know if I am going to pronounce this right: 
Bon Secours? Is that right?
    The Chairman. Close.
    Senator McCaskill. Bon Secours Virginia Health System has 
for years recognized that it makes no sense to see its best and 
brightest workers walk out the door at age 55 when most nurses 
tend to leave the hospital floor, so to combat this brain 
drain, they have developed a phased retirement system that 
employs these young workers in a variety of roles, such as 
quality review, teaching, and analyzing care. They have also 
adjusted their benefits packages so these older workers would 
not be penalized for reducing hours.
    Today the program is so successful that it works across 
demographics. This culture of flexible work schedules is good 
not just for the older worker but for the reservist, the 
mother, or any other employee who cannot work a full 40-hour 
schedule, but still brings essential skills to the job.
    SSM Health Care in St. Louis offers its own phased 
retirement system, allowing employees over 62 to collect their 
pension while working a more flexible schedule. Hundreds of its 
employees have already taken advantage of this plan.
    I should also point out that while working longer is a 
viable option for those seeking a way to build a more secure 
retirement, it is not the answer for everyone. We should 
recognize that some people have spent years working jobs that 
are so physically demanding that asking them to do any kind of 
work into their 70's is just not realistic. We will still need 
to work to develop strategies for this group of workers, but 
that should not stop us from exploring more ways to help older 
workers stay engaged and continue to earn an income if they so 
choose.
    With that in mind, I look forward to hearing the testimony 
from today's panel, and I thank all of you very much for being 
here.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much for your testimony. I 
will confess before this entire room that it was the Ranking 
Member who convinced me that I had to get an iPhone. I did 
indeed.
    We are also pleased to be joined by I believe the person 
who is the youngest member of the Senate. Is that accurate, 
Senator Cotton?
    Senator Cotton. It is, but I am old in spirit.
    The Chairman. We are very pleased to have you here as well.
    Now we will turn to our panel of witnesses. First we will 
hear from Dr. Sara Rix. Dr. Rix recently retired from her 
position as a senior strategic policy adviser for the AARP and 
is now a consultant specializing in working and aging issues.
    We will then hear from Susan Nordman, who is the owner of 
Erda, a specialty handbag company located in rural Dexter, 
Maine. She will testify about her experience starting over in a 
new field at an older age, as well as her experience in 
employing an older workforce, and I particularly want to thank 
her for traveling down from Maine to be with us today.
    Third, we will hear from Kerry Hannon, an author, a New 
York Times columnist, and a contributing editor for Forbes.
    Finally, we will hear from James Godwin, the vice president 
of human resources at Bon Secours Virginia Health System in 
Richmond, Virginia.
    Thank you all for being with us today. We look forward to 
hearing from you, and we will start with Dr. Rix.

       STATEMENT OF SARA E. RIX, PH.D., WORKING AND AGING
                  CONSULTANT, WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Dr. Rix. Thank you, Chairman Collins and Ranking Member 
McCaskill, for inviting me to testify today about the 
challenges and opportunities involved in prolonging working 
life. Prolonged employment stands to benefit employers facing 
labor and skills shortages, and the economy, but it can also 
greatly enhance the retirement security of workers and their 
families by increasing Social Security benefits by as much as 
eight percent per year of delayed receipt, by giving workers 
more time to save and benefit from a 401(k) match, if offered, 
and by reducing the time, the number of years spent in 
retirement and, thus, the supplemental income needed for 
retirement years.
    Older workers already are working longer, are remaining 
longer in the workforce. One statistic readily highlights this 
point. Among persons 65 to 69, those we have traditionally 
thought of as retirement age, the labor force participation 
rate has risen from about 18 percent in 1985 to nearly 32 
percent in 2014, or by over 70 percent. We cannot credit any 
single policy or program for higher participation rates at 
older ages. The older population is extremely diverse and 
responds in different ways to different incentives and 
disincentives. Rising educational attainment does seem to be a 
major determinant, accounting for perhaps half of the increase 
in participation among older men, according to one study.
    Up to 80 percent of workers say they expect to work in 
retirement, and we have just heard some of the reasons. They 
need the money, of course, but they also enjoy what they are 
doing. They want to remain active; they hope to make a 
contribution. Yet far fewer workers actually remain in the 
labor force than say they expect to because of job loss, ill 
health, and caregiving responsibilities. Others may be unable 
to find the opportunities that could keep them at work: less 
demanding jobs, new career options, good part-time jobs, and 
more flexible work schedules, for example.
    When to retire is a decision over which workers have some 
control, not total control but more than they have over the 
stock market or housing values. Exercising that control by 
working longer is what I think we have been seeing, including 
during the recent recession when labor force participation 
rates rose for older workers but fell for younger ones.
    Employers, however, have considerable say in what workers 
can and will do. On the plus side, employers tend to be very 
positive about older workers when it comes to attributes such 
as loyalty, dependability, customer relationships, and the 
like, but on the minus side, many employers harbor negative 
attitudes about older worker costs and technological 
competence. The new AARP survey just mentioned may alleviate 
some of those concerns about cost and performance.
    Moreover, if employers need workers, they will do what is 
necessary to obtain and retain an adequate supply, and that 
will include drawing upon what is available: older people ready 
and eager to work.
    Just what public policy initiatives would encourage even 
more employment at older ages in a scalable, cost-efficient 
manner and in a way that does not pit generations against one 
another is not so obvious. In my written testimony, I offer 
several suggestions, and there are many others in addition. If 
I could identify only one this afternoon, it would be to 
promote older workers' skills development to ensure that those 
workers have the qualifications they need to find work, change 
jobs or careers, or reenter the labor force after retirement. 
This means more money for the Nation's workforce development 
system as well as monitoring older worker outcomes under the 
new Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act.
    In addition, it is also incumbent upon us to promote life-
long learning to make sure that tomorrow's older workers do not 
face the same employment barriers that today's do. This will 
not be inexpensive, but before going further with other policy 
proposals, I suggest that we might be well served by taking 
stock of what we know and do not know about what actually 
fosters longer work lives so that appropriate policies can be 
crafted to achieve our objectives. Hence, I shall conclude with 
an appeal for more funding for the Department of Labor to 
address a range of questions about how best to incentivize more 
older workers to work even longer and more employers to hire 
and retain them.
    Thank you.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much for your excellent 
testimony.
    Ms. Nordman.

                 STATEMENT OF SUSAN E. NORDMAN,
                   OWNER, ERDA, DEXTER, MAINE

    Ms. Nordman. Chairman Collins, Ranking Member McCaskill, 
distinguished members, thank you for inviting me to testify. My 
name is Susan Nordman. I am the owner of Erda, a small 
manufacturing company and the maker of Erda handbags. I grew up 
in rural Maine in the late 1960's in an agricultural community. 
Like many of my peers, I left home for college and employment. 
I settled in the New York City area and built a life with a 
family and several successful businesses. It had always been my 
intention to return home to the State of Maine. In 2006, my 
husband and I packed up and headed north, planning to retire. 
We settled outside of Portland and within driving distance to 
Boston.
    In 2012, a business broker sent me a listing on a small 
company in northern Maine. The company was intriguing, but the 
location was not: too far north, too remote, too rural. The 
idea was dropped until a year later when I saw a display of 
Erda handbags in a gallery. The bright colors and quirky shapes 
demanded further investigation.
    The facility was in an old barn in the middle of a 
cornfield in the middle of nowhere. As soon as I walked in, I 
was hooked. The smell of the leather, bright rolls of fabric, 
and a group of women stitching was mesmerizing, and there was 
opportunity. The company had fallen into disrepair and was 
poorly managed. I knew I could fix this. I bought the company 
in late 2013.
    Along with the asset purchase, I inherited a group of older 
women. If I moved the company too far, they would all be 
unemployed. Corliss is 64, Georgia is 69, and the rest of us 
saw our 60th birthdays together. I felt an obligation to find a 
solution that did not leave them behind.
    We moved one town over to Dexter, Maine. Warren Buffett had 
improved most of the infrastructure in the town for Dexter 
Shoes, so we had reliable electricity and a road the UPS truck 
could drive on. The equipment needed updating, and the new 
space gave me the opportunity to design a more ergonomic 
workplace for my older workers.
    Two questions are asked of me when the topic of older 
workers comes up:
    Do older workers cost more? The answer is older workers 
cost different. I had to take into consideration my older 
workers when purchasing equipment. I have an older workforce. 
Many stitching places, including New Balance and L.L. Bean, 
have machines that require the workers to stand at the machine. 
An older worker has difficulty with this style of equipment. 
The equipment I purchased was more costly, but it led to a 
better product and improved production time.
    The second question I get asked is: Is it harder to train 
an older worker? Are they too set in their ways? This question 
is usually asked by a younger person. The image of an old dog 
comes to mind, and I have to laugh. When did we become old 
dogs? The answer to the question is: No, it is not harder to 
teach an older person. I have found that an older worker is 
quick to assimilate new ideas, in part because they have a 
larger set of experiential building blocks on which to pin a 
new concept. I suspect that an old dog who does not like new 
tricks was once a young dog that had an aversion to new tricks.
    Staying mentally active was my primary reason for starting 
a new career. I recognized the importance of this, and I have 
created a workplace that is more studio than factory. Each bag 
is made one at a time by one person. This gives each person a 
variety of duties and creates ownership and pride in their 
work.
    An older worker tends to be more balanced in their personal 
lives. Work is important, but it does not dominate. Each 
employee sets their own hours at Erda. It is a benefit that 
costs me very little and goes a long way to making a better 
workplace.
    My employees are paid hourly, not by the piece. They get 
sick days, holidays, and vacations. We break for Qi Gong 
sessions every morning, and we have a massage therapist come in 
once a month.
    Financial necessity dictates the need to work for most of 
my employees. They worry about the longevity of Social Security 
and health care costs. We are a small company, but you can find 
our handbags throughout the country in galleries, museum 
stores, and some national parks. We are predominantly an older 
group with two under thirty's learning the trade. A workplace 
that includes older workers is more balanced and more 
interesting. I do not know what role, if any, Government should 
play in this issue. It is certainly worth discussing. For now, 
we will keep making our handbags and learning from one another, 
old to young and young to old.
    Thank you for hearing my testimony.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much for your testimony. I 
understand that you have one of your handbags with you.
    Ms. Nordman. I do, but it is not the pretty one. They made 
me take pretty ones, but I----
    The Chairman. Well, you are welcome to put it up there so 
that----
    Ms. Nordman. I elected to have my waxed canvas.
    The Chairman. So that we could see it. We should have asked 
you to bring a display.
    Senator McCaskill. I am looking at their Web page. Speaking 
of technology, I can put one in the cart right now.
    The Chairman. Always a step ahead. That is impressive.
    Ms. Hannon.

                  STATEMENT OF KERRY HANNON, 
         CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, FORBES, WASHINGTON, D.C.

    Ms. Hannon. Chairman Collins, Ranking Member McCaskill, 
members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to testify 
before the Special Committee on Aging and for focusing your 
attention on the challenges Americans over 50 face in the 
workplace. I have spent three decades covering all aspects of 
businesses, careers, and personal finance, and I am alarmed by 
the disconnect between employers and older workers.
    Work at an older age is becoming increasingly common. Yes, 
some retirees have always taken part-time jobs out of financial 
need or to shore up retirement accounts, to stave off boredom. 
What is different now is that today's Baby Boomers are either 
continuing to work much longer or approaching work not as an 
afterthought but as a pillar of their retirement plan. The 
numbers tell the story.
    In 1991, just 11 percent of workers expected to retire 
after age 65, according to the Employee Benefit Research 
Institute's 2015 Retirement Confidence Survey. Today, more than 
three times that number expect to retire after age 65, and 10 
percent do not plan to retire. Two-thirds of workers say they 
plan to work for pay in retirement.
    Here is the hitch: Many workers say they are going to work 
in retirement, but a very small percentage do, but working for 
pay a few years longer can make a huge difference in financial 
security as we age. I suspect one of the reasons why people are 
not continuing to work is they cannot find a job, and give up.
    As I travel around the country speaking to audiences of 
people over 50 who are looking for jobs, I see a palpable fear 
in their eyes that they are going to outlive their money. 
Simply put, they need to work, but when it comes to getting a 
job, it is a struggle. I am not going to sugar-coat it. Here is 
what I find and I advise. An employer is concerned that an 
older worker is not up for the job, that they do not have the 
stamina and the energy. A lot of people come up to me and say, 
you know, ``Do I need to get Botox? Should I dye my hair to 
look younger?'' I say, ``No. You need a fitness program. You 
need to be physically fit, and it is one of the best things you 
can do.'' You give off a certain energy, and a can-do spirit, 
it goes a long way to fighting ageism.
    The second thing employers worry about is that you are not 
up to speed with technology, and you know what? They might be 
right. In today's work world, that is nonnegotiable. I 
encourage workers to take courses at a community college or 
local library to ramp it up. Learning is imperative if you want 
to stay relevant in the workplace.
    The third thing they are going to worry about is that you 
are not going to play nicely with the other kids, and by that I 
mean younger workers, or be comfortable with a younger boss. 
That is quite possible. It is about fitting into the culture. 
You need to go out of your way to show that you have had great 
multigenerational work relationships.
    Employers are also going to worry that you are 
overqualified for the job you are applying for or are not going 
to be happy with the salary that they can offer you and you 
will resent it in time. It is a stark reality. Many older 
workers I know who do find work go back to work at lower 
salaries than they had with their last employer.
    Sometimes older workers opt to start their own businesses 
or switch careers, but money is the biggest stumbling block 
when you go that route. You will probably have to start off at 
a lower salary, and if you are starting your own business, you 
will have the cost of startup and probably will not be able to 
pay yourself a salary for a while, so you really need to be 
financially fit before you start down that path. Debt is a 
dream killer.
    I always remind workers to not give up, to think of ways 
that they can redeploy their skills to other fields and to not 
get stuck trying to replicate their old jobs. There are 
opportunities in the nonprofit arena, health care, with small 
business, with startups, with small associations, where your 
expertise is valued, and if you are out of work right now, do 
something. Keep your resume alive by volunteering for a cause 
you care about. You never know who you might meet who can point 
you to another opportunity, or your work could even turn into a 
full-time job. Be willing to take on a contract or a consulting 
job because it can fill those employment gaps on your resume.
    Finally, money aside, working gives us something to get up 
in the morning for. Work gives us a sense of purpose, feeling 
connected, and needed. Work makes us feel relevant. In fact, 
studies show it keeps us healthier and it keeps our minds 
sharper.
    I could go on, but my time is up. Again, I want to thank 
the Committee for inviting me to be here today.
    The Chairman. Thank you so much for your testimony.
    Mr. Godwin.

            STATEMENT OF JAMES C. GODWIN, JR., VICE

           PRESIDENT OF HUMAN RESOURCES, BON SECOURS

           VIRGINIA HEALTH SYSTEM, RICHMOND, VIRGINIA

    Mr. Godwin. Good afternoon, Chairman Collins, Ranking 
Member McCaskill, and distinguished members of the Special 
Committee on Aging. On behalf of the more than 13,000 employees 
of Bon Secours Virginia Health System, I thank you for this 
opportunity to share insights on how we attract and retain 
older workers as part of our health care ministry.
    My name is Jim Godwin, and I am the vice president of human 
resources for Bon Secours Virginia. Today, I will share: an 
overview of our workforce; why we value the experience, 
knowledge and expertise of older workers; and how they 
contribute to our success and culture.
    As a Roman Catholic, nonprofit health care system, Bon 
Secours Virginia is part of the Maryland-based Bon Secours 
Health System, with some 22,000 employees in six States.
    Bon Secours Virginia has 8,400 employees in Richmond and 
5,000 employees in Hampton Roads, Virginia. With five hospitals 
in the Richmond area, three in Hampton Roads, dozens of 
ambulatory care sites and support centers, along with a college 
of nursing and a school of medical imaging, we take our mission 
of ``providing good help to those in need'' to heart.
    The Sisters of Bon Secours, who started our ministry in 
1824 in Paris, remain a guiding force for our shared values, 
mission, and vision. Nearly all of the Sisters are 60 years old 
or older, and many continue serving as leaders well into their 
80's and 90's, providing strategic direction and guidance. For 
us, workers of this age are common, and we celebrate their 
vision, wisdom, and contributions.
    In our Virginia health system, 35 percent of our employees 
are 50 or older; 11 percent are in their 60's. We have 126 
employees in their 70's and a remarkable 12 in their 80's. Some 
82 percent of our workforce is female, and more than one-third 
are nurses.
    We value each employee and his or her unique qualities and 
life experiences. We believe our older workers' wisdom and 
institutional knowledge are invaluable.
    Let me tell you about some of our long-time employees. I 
will start with Nettie Coleman, who works for me in Employee 
Wellness. She turns 81 this year. She has worked for us for an 
amazing 58 years so far, starting in 1957. She tried retirement 
for a few months, but her respect and passion for her work drew 
her back. After nearly six decades, Nettie still works part 
time in new hire pre-placement, conducting physicals, drawing 
blood, and helping to induct new employees to our workplace.
    Our oldest employee is Virginia Abbott. Virginia is 89 and 
celebrates 29 years of service with us this year. Outside of 
her incredible work stamina, what is so amazing about Virginia 
is that she did not even come to work for us until she was 60 
years old, and yet she has been with us almost 30 years. 
Currently, we have five employees with 49 years of service. 
Clearly, work is the new foundation of youth for these 
distinguished employees.
    We also have many employees launching ``Encore Careers.'' A 
former high school administrator and a professional firefighter 
both recently graduated from the Bon Secours Memorial College 
of Nursing with bachelor's degrees in nursing. Both of these 
men are over 50 years old and are enjoying second careers in 
our health system. Another recent graduate was 62 years old.
    Bon Secours is committed to our culture that attracts, 
retains, and values workers that are over 50 years old. In 
fact, AARP has ranked us a ``Best Employer for Workers over 
50'' since 2003.
    We have been on Working Mother magazine's top 100 places 
for working mothers for 16 years and in the top 10 twice. 
Gallup has named Bon Secours Health System to its prestigious 
international listing of Great Workplaces annually since 2011.
    These accolades benefit Bon Secours Virginia as an 
organization because we are able to attract and retain a highly 
engaged and productive workforce--of all ages and life stages. 
This directly benefits our patients, who have better care 
experiences and rate us higher on patient satisfaction surveys.
    Let me share with you how experienced nurses benefit 
patient care.
    The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation reports that RNs are, on 
average, spending more time in the workforce--about two and 
half more years than their peers did back in the 1980's and 
1990's. That is a good thing for Bon Secours. We need them.
    As nurses age, they report higher levels of career and job 
satisfaction. Some 80 to 85 percent of nurses report being 
satisfied with their careers--much higher than other 
professions. That means that as more Baby Boomer nurses age, 
they are more likely to be satisfied and more likely to keep 
working. That kind of experience and knowledge is invaluable 
when it comes to patient care and patient safety.
    However, working in a hospital setting can be hard on 
nurses due to the physical challenges. Our patients are much 
heavier than they were in the past, and heavier patients means 
more workers are prone to injury. That is why we have 
implemented mobility-lift teams to help older workers with the 
regular turning of bed-bound patients. We have seen a drop in 
injuries and a reduction in muscle fatigue among older nurses 
as a result.
    Our workforce is changing, and we are working hard to 
address those changes. America continues to face a nursing 
shortage. Finding the right nurses for the right jobs at the 
right time remains difficult. We are going to need to keep our 
health care employees satisfied with their careers because the 
demand for health care is growing.
    At the same time, people are living longer and healthier 
lives, and the majority of U.S. workers are delaying their 
retirement.
    By offering initiatives such as phased retirement, flexible 
work schedules, and intergenerational programming, Bon Secours 
has been successful in retaining its valuable older workers. 
Today we have about 100 Virginia employees who receive both a 
retirement check and a paycheck from us.
    Our comprehensive benefits are attractive and flexible; our 
onsite family centers are a good example where we allow 
employees to have their grandchildren in our daycare centers as 
well as their parents. We also have elder care programs that 
benefit older workers who are in the sandwich generation where 
they are having to provide care for their parents as well as 
often for their children or their children who have returned 
home after graduating from college.
    In closing, I remind you to remember employees at Bon 
Secours Virginia--like our 89-year-old Virginia Abbott, who is 
a wonderful lady, people who keep working beyond their typical 
retirement age--allow us to keep our mission viable and alive, 
and thank you for the opportunity to share our story today.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Godwin.
    Ms. Nordman, you mentioned in your testimony that you had 
run a number of other businesses before you returned home to 
Maine. I am assuming that those businesses probably had a 
younger workforce than the workforce that you now employ. Is 
that true or not necessarily?
    Ms. Nordman. That is true, but I have never hired on the 
basis of age or anything. I always try and get employees who 
are going to fit into the team. At one point I had 37 employees 
in one company, and we really did run the gamut of, you know, 
20-somethings all the way up to 55, was probably the oldest at 
that time.
    The Chairman. With older employees, do you find that there 
is less turnover?
    Ms. Nordman. Less turnover, less texting, less boyfriend 
drama. Yes.
    The Chairman. All advantages of hiring an older worker.
    Ms. Nordman. Yes, yes.
    The Chairman. No doubt about it, and if you have less 
turnover, then you are spending less on retraining?
    Ms. Nordman. I am spending less on retraining. I am 
spending less on integrating--when you bring a new person into 
a tight-knit group, it takes a lot of wiggling for that person 
to finally settle in and become part of the group, so the 
better I can retain a worker, the better it is for the company, 
which is why it takes me so long to hire. The process for me is 
at least three weeks, because I want the right person.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Dr. Rix, skill development programs, and both you and Ms. 
Hannon have mentioned the importance of skill development, but 
Federal skill development programs are often aimed at young 
workers. We have some excellent apprenticeship programs, for 
example, that are aimed at people who are just coming out of 
community colleges or technical schools. We have other programs 
that tend to be aimed at people who are younger, and yet it may 
well be that an older worker, particularly one who has been out 
of the workforce for a while and has difficulty, as Ms. Hannon 
pointed out, in coming back into the workforce, may need a 
refresher on their skills or entirely new skills.
    I see this in Maine where we have had paper mills close 
down, and people have worked for decades making very good 
paper, and they are excellent paper makers, but that is what 
they have done their whole life, and they are frequently in 
their 50's, and all of a sudden they are faced with having to 
switch careers.
    I would be interested in any comments that each of you 
might have on current Federal programs or other programs that 
you may be aware of and whether they do a good job of helping 
older workers. One that I know of in the Department of Labor is 
called the ``Senior Community Service Employment Program,'' and 
it is aimed at lower-income individuals aged 55 or older, but 
it has been pretty criticized for a number of reasons, but do 
either of you have any suggestions for us as we look at Federal 
job training programs? I will start with Dr. Rix and then go to 
Ms. Hannon.
    Dr. Rix. Well, you have hit on one of the----
    The Chairman. I am going to ask you to turn on your mic. 
Thank you.
    Dr. Rix. You have mentioned one of the major federally 
funded employment training programs for older workers. You are 
quite correct that we have not invested the Federal resources 
in older workers. It did appear they were singled out in the 
Job Training Partnership Act; for example, there was a special 
set-aside for older workers that did not make it into the 
Workforce Investment Act, and they have been singled out once 
again as a group with special barriers to employment in the 
Workforce Innovation Opportunity Act.
    I think what we need to do is some--what I would recommend 
is more older worker specialists in the American Job Centers 
that can help older workers be directed to programs in the 
community that may provide them with the appropriate skills. I 
am not suggesting that the Federal Government set up special 
programs along the lines of the Senior Community Service 
Employment Program but, rather, make the financial resources 
available to workers through the Job Centers or through other 
mechanisms along with the guidance that workers need about 
where the jobs are going to be and what type of training they 
need to obtain in order to get those jobs.
    A big problem that workers have faced in the job training 
environment is that they often engage in training, often using 
their own hard-earned resources, only to find that those 
training opportunities lead nowhere as far as jobs are 
concerned.
    We have to start at a very basic level and understanding 
what the labor market opportunities are in a particular area, 
namely, what the jobs are, where they are going to be, working 
closely with employers, job training providers, and Government 
entities with the resources to help older workers and, indeed, 
workers of all ages know what they need to do to get what they 
want, to find good, secure employment providing decent jobs and 
benefits.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Ms. Hannon.
    Ms. Hannon. I agree with Dr. Rix's points there. I think a 
really important thing is helping older workers identify the 
skills they have. They may have been at that plant for all 
those years, and they do not even see what they are good at 
anymore. They do not recognize what it is.
    The one-stop career centers often have coaching available 
there, and if there is a way to--a lot of individuals I have 
talked to find that working with a coach actually helps them 
identify skills that they have and how they can redeploy those. 
It gives them confidence and sort of lifts them out of the 
depression that they often fall into. I think it is a very 
important resource if we could expand that to a certain degree 
in those centers.
    I think employers, if someone is currently involved, the 
tax incentive to offer educational assistance for employees is 
often a nice thing, if employees--not all employers offer that. 
I think only 60 percent do, or something, it is so small, it is 
not a huge number, but I do believe that if employees have 
access to even, you know, education that they can pay for with 
dollars that are not taxed, it would be fantastic to encourage 
that, because you have to continue motivating that learning 
cycle in order to move into these jobs, and as we discussed 
here, these certificate programs are terrific, but some of them 
lead nowhere, so you really need to be cautious about people 
taking that path to a quick hit to learn a new skill.
    I find that it is important to identify, you know, where 
these opportunities are going to be, and the Department of 
Labor has the Occupation Handbook, which I like a lot. I think 
there is great--they identify fastest-growing industries, 
things that are coming up down the road, and they spell out: 
What certifications do you need to do this job? What is the 
median salary? It gives workers some starting point. It is a 
great research.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Senator McCaskill.
    Senator McCaskill. Thank you.
    Let me ask first, Mr. Godwin, was your, I would call it, 
``culture of flexibility'' born out of necessity due to the 
nursing shortage? Or did it happen organically because of the 
recognition of the organization of the skills that were walking 
out the door?
    Mr. Godwin. Well, the shortages of health care workers in 
general, not just nurses, have caused health care employers 
across the Nation to have to be more flexible. Being a 24/7 
operation, it is in some ways easier for us to be flexible, of 
course, because we have such a wide variety of types of jobs as 
well as schedules and so forth, so in health care, we have 
historically had mostly female workers, and because of how 
things were in the 1950's and so forth, you know, we had to be 
in a position to work around school schedules and working moms 
and so forth.
    That flexibility transcends all aspects of our workforce. 
Being flexible helps older workers. It also helps working 
mothers. It also helps reservists and National Guardsmen and 
all sorts of other employees.
    Senator McCaskill. Right.
    Mr. Godwin. It is organic in that sense.
    Senator McCaskill. Well, it just seems that the flexibility 
of work schedules is something that has, I think, become much 
more prevalent in the last decade, but still, I think there are 
a lot of segments of our economy out there that have not 
recognized the validity of flexibility, whether it is age of 
workers or whether it is hours at work.
    I noticed, Ms. Nordman, that you have flexibility for your 
workers in terms of their schedules. How many employees do you 
have right now?
    Ms. Nordman. We have ten employees, and we are looking to 
hire two more.
    Senator McCaskill. You know, for older workers, one of the 
things that I think is a big topic that really has not been 
discussed extensively yet is the--what is the challenges of 
health care for older workers, especially those between 50 and 
65, because that is before they are eligible for Medicare, and 
in many small businesses, there is not health care provided. I 
assume you do not provide health care at your business.
    Ms. Nordman. We do not provide health care, and Annie, two 
of her paychecks go to pay for their health care, and Corliss, 
probably two of her paychecks each week go to pay for their 
health care.
    Senator McCaskill. I am aware that your--you mentioned in 
your written testimony that their pay was about $25,000 a year, 
$12 an hour.
    Ms. Nordman. Yes, and I am a high payer for my area.
    Senator McCaskill. You are a high payer for your area, and 
I believe that your State is similar to my State in that they 
have not expanded Medicaid under the Affordable Care Act.
    Ms. Nordman. No, I do not believe they have.
    Senator McCaskill. Your workers cannot qualify for 
subsidies. The irony is that they are too poor to qualify for 
subsidies.
    Ms. Nordman. Yes.
    Senator McCaskill. If they made a little bit more, their 
health insurance would go dramatically down.
    Ms. Nordman. Right.
    Senator McCaskill. Because they would be entitled to 
subsidies under the act.
    Ms. Nordman. Right.
    Senator McCaskill. Your State, like Missouri, has refused 
the Federal dollars that were identified that could make a big 
difference in terms----
    Ms. Nordman. It would make a big difference.
    Senator McCaskill. For these older workers--who are working 
hard.
    Ms. Nordman. Really hard.
    Senator McCaskill. It is not as if they are sitting at 
home. They are not a--I think the typical vision that people 
have of a Medicaid recipient, these are people who are working 
and providing great value to your company.
    Ms. Nordman. Yes, they are.
    Senator McCaskill. What about pre-existing conditions? I 
noticed also in your testimony that two of your workers had had 
cancer.
    Ms. Nordman. Two of my workers have had cancer, and it is 
an issue for them.
    Senator McCaskill. If we did not have the ability to not 
discriminate against pre-existing conditions, that would be 
even more difficult for them in terms of their ability to get 
insurance.
    Ms. Nordman. It would be very difficult for them.
    Senator McCaskill. Ms. Hannon or Dr. Rix, I am assuming 
that the ability to change jobs and retrain at an older age has 
been dictated up until very recently many times by the fact 
that you did not want to leave your job if you had health care 
because if you had the nerve to be sick before, you could not 
go get insurance somewhere else because, in fact, you had a 
pre-existing condition, so I am assuming that there is more 
portability now for older workers that want to follow a dream 
or want to start a business or what to do something 
differently.
    Dr. Rix. I suspect that is the case. However, access to 
health care still involves money. You have to pay for it. It is 
not free.
    Senator McCaskill. Right.
    Dr. Rix. The continuing high costs of health care may be 
still preventing some people from following, pursuing that 
dream.
    Senator McCaskill. Right, because they have the benefit in 
a job, and they would have to be paying for it themselves if 
they started their business----
    Dr. Rix. Yes.
    Senator McCaskill [continuing]. or perhaps went to work 
somewhere that was a much smaller company that was not required 
to provide any benefit at all.
    Dr. Rix. Yes, especially if they were not paid very much in 
that----
    Senator McCaskill. Right.
    Ms. Hannon. I think that is true, very much true. I think 
it has the illusion of creating portability for people, which 
in reality might not be as much as we would hope to be. I work 
for myself, and I know that it has become more expensive for me 
with the new situation.
    Senator McCaskill. You are a single business, an LLC?
    Ms. Hannon. Yes.
    Senator McCaskill. Okay. Thank you very much.
    The Chairman. Senator Warren.
    Senator Warren. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    I want to ask about another aspect of seniors working. One 
of the biggest economic challenges facing older workers is the 
increased risk of becoming disabled and unable to work, 
particularly because the likelihood of disability increases 
sharply with age, so from age 40 to 50, a worker's chance of 
becoming disabled doubles, and from age 50 to 60 it doubles 
once again. Social Security Disability Insurance is the only 
way that millions of these workers stay out of poverty when 
they get hurt.
    Now, people sometimes think of the disability program as 
separate from retirement age Social Security, but both programs 
are about helping seniors. Fully 70 percent of Social Security 
Disability Insurance beneficiaries are in their 50's and their 
60's.
    Dr. Rix, as a former senior policy adviser for the AARP, 
you are an expert on the economic hardships facing older 
workers. Can you explain how the Social Security disability 
system works?
    Dr. Rix. Well, it works very much like the Social Security 
retired workers program. It is an income or earnings protection 
program that protects workers from loss of earning in the face 
of severe disability, and that is disability that is estimated 
to last at least a year or result in death. It is not a program 
for malingerers. The criteria for eligibility for SSDI are very 
strict, and many individuals who apply for disability benefits 
never receive them.
    Senator Warren. Okay. Just like regular Social Security, 
disability insurance is something people earn from working, 
while they are working. Is that right?
    Dr. Rix. Yes, from a portion of their taxes. Yes.
    Senator Warren. Okay, just to make sure I have got it.
    Dr. Rix. Yes.
    Senator Warren. Why is the program so important to the 
financial security of older workers?
    Dr. Rix. The disability program?
    Senator Warren. Yes.
    Dr. Rix. I think for the very reasons that you expressed, 
older workers--and I do want to emphasize that disability can 
occur at any age, and most older workers are not disabled, but 
as you mentioned, they are more likely to become disabled with 
age, and that modest benefit that they receive from the SSDI 
program is often all or a very significant portion of the 
income the household receives, and that is because they are 
generally unable to work or are very, very limited in what they 
can do, so their earnings are very low as well.
    Senator Warren. I understand that the modest benefits--they 
are about $1,165 a month, and they keep about 6.6 million 
disabled Americans from falling into poverty. Does that sound 
about right, Dr. Rix?
    Dr. Rix. It does.
    Senator Warren. Sometimes the retirement fund runs low, and 
sometimes the disability fund runs low. We have got these two 
funds in Social Security. Usually this is not a big deal. The 
Government regularly transfers money back and forth between the 
two Social Security programs, retirement and disability. We 
have done it 11 times before in both directions that it has 
moved, but next year is different. The disability fund this 
time will need a transfer, but the very first thing the House 
Republicans did when they came back in January, literally on 
the first day of the new Congress, was to pass a new rule to 
prevent a routine transfer to the disability fund.
    Now, let us be clear. This is an invented Social Security 
crisis, taking the disability system hostage in a war to 
dismantle Social Security inch by inch. If they get their way, 
the House Republicans will force disabled Americans, most of 
them seniors, to face a 20-percent cut in their Social Security 
checks next year.
    Dr. Rix, the House Republicans argue that we need to gut 
the Social Security disability program in order to save it. Do 
you disagree?
    Dr. Rix. I do disagree. I think that the Social Security 
disability system needs reform, but it does not need gutting. 
It is too important to today's disabled Americans, regardless 
of age, and I for one would resist any attempt to gut the 
program if I were in a position to do so.
    Senator Warren. Thank you very much. When we talk about 
working seniors and what it means to be a working senior, I 
just want to be clear about this one. This is a ploy that does 
not fool anyone. It is an attack on seniors, and it is time to 
stop playing games with the economic stability of millions of 
seniors who depend on Social Security to live with dignity. 
Thank you, Dr. Rix.
    Thank you, Madam Chairman.
    The Chairman. Senator Casey, perhaps you can help us get 
back on topic.
    Senator Casey. Thank you very much for the panel's 
testimony. I did not hear all of it, but I have looked at it, 
and I wanted to highlight the fact that I do not know the exact 
average for the age of U.S. Senators, but we are above 55, I 
think, so we are listening carefully to recommendations for 
today. I think Senator Donnelly is like 24. He brings it way 
down, but other than that, we are all getting close to that 
age, if we are not there already.
    I wanted to start with Mr. Godwin. I know that in your 
testimony you focused on, among other things, intergenerational 
services, and you have got obviously some expertise in this, 
but one number that stood out for me, in addition to what--Dr. 
Rix in her testimony talked about the participation rate or 
labor force participation rate of older workers going from 
about 18 percent in 1985, increasing by 70 percent to a number 
like 32 percent in 2014, so a huge increase in the labor force 
participation rate.
    One thing I was not aware of until the hearing was that 2.7 
million grandparents are responsible for their grandchildren 
and the challenges that come with that in any event, but 
especially in the event where that grandparent is both working 
and responsible for their grandchildren. I know that is not the 
only burden they might face, but in those circumstances where 
there is both the challenge of getting a job after a certain 
age but then also having an additional burden, can you give us 
some advice or some suggestions as to the best ways that 
companies can alleviate some of that burden?
    Mr. Godwin. Well, I think we find at Bon Secours that our 
benefits for young mothers apply equally well to those who are 
now having to care for their grandchildren. We do see a growing 
number of our older workers who are now raising their 
grandchildren, sometimes with their child in the home with them 
who is for some reason unable to care for the grandchild and 
sometimes without. We have the advantage of having onsite child 
care at a number of our facilities, and we put that in 20 or 25 
years when it was for working mothers, primarily, but now that 
plays very well for us with employees able to put their 
grandchildren in those same centers.
    When you couple that with the flexible work schedules we 
have, it means that the grandparent, just like the young 
mother, can have a flexible schedule for getting children on 
and off the bus, for dealing with when children are ill and 
have to have well visits with their physicians and so forth, 
but it is the same package; it is the same mind-set for us. The 
age of the employee is, frankly, irrelevant to that benefit.
    Senator Casey. I know one of the realizations that animates 
or undergirds this discussion is what older workers, as you 
have all highlighted in one way or another, can bring to a 
workforce, not simply the deep reservoir of experience and 
skill, but often both wit and wisdom at the same time.
    What we try to do at hearings like this, in addition to 
learning and hearing suggestions about the current State of a 
challenge or a problem or an opportunity, are the things that 
we can do legislatively to move it forward. Sometimes there is 
not. Sometimes there is no legislative remedy or strategy, but 
I guess just in the remaining time I have, if we can go, 
starting with you, Dr. Rix, and move to my right, just kind of 
one top-line suggestion that you would hope we would work on 
either by way of strengthening or changing a policy or 
introducing some new legislative or policy change.
    Dr. Rix. Well, there are a number--I think I mentioned in 
my oral testimony that additional resources for training and 
retraining older workers would be at the top of my list, but 
there are a number of other perhaps some less dramatic and 
maybe less impactful recommendations, and one would be to 
expand the Age Discrimination and Employment Act's 
jurisdictional threshold to businesses with 15 or more 
employees rather than the current 20-plus. That would protect 
more older workers.
    Requiring employers to provide paid family leave programs 
should make it easier for middle-aged and older workers with 
caregiving responsibilities among others to combine those 
responsibilities with paid work.
    Eliminating some of the impediments to formal phased 
retirement programs might additionally enable workers to obtain 
the work schedules that many of them tell us they are 
interested in.
    You might want to take a look at--rather than my going 
through all of them right now, take a look at those 
recommendations in the written testimony.
    Senator Casey. Thank you. I know we are----
    Dr. Rix. If I could say one other thing, though, I do think 
that most of the burden rests squarely on the shoulders of 
employers, and it is up to them to provide the job 
opportunities to older workers. While legislative initiatives 
might help somewhat, if employers do not want or need older 
workers, then I am not sure there is much that policy can do to 
change that.
    Senator Casey. We are out of time, maybe for our remaining 
witnesses, we will submit something for the record. Thank you 
very much.
    The Chairman. Senator Casey, if you do want to have the 
rest of the witnesses respond, I would be happy to have them do 
so.
    Senator Casey. Is this a lightning round?
    The Chairman. Yes.
    Senator Casey. As long as the Chairman will allow you to 
answer, that is how much time you have.
    Ms. Nordman. Well, as an employer, I agree it is our 
responsibility. I think it is our responsibility to not 
discriminate on any level and to provide a workplace that is 
safe and friendly and productive. I do agree that it is on us, 
you know, to provide jobs for older workers.
    Senator Casey. Thank you.
    Ms. Hannon. A couple of quick highlights. I think to 
encourage a more flexible workforce, work arrangements, because 
older workers really want autonomy. They want to be able to 
work from home. It does not have to cost more to retrofit your 
office, if you can do that.
    I think a commitment to the community college system, who 
already has 50-plus programs for education. If there is any way 
we could build on what they are offering today, I think that is 
great.
    There is a wonderful consortium recently in New York City 
that Encore.org brought together with the universities around 
the country trying to figure out how can we deal with this 
segment of our population that needs education, which we have 
ignored for years. It is not the young people; it is the old 
folks. We need programs for them.
    Finally, I think the idea of financing, making financing 
easier for senior entrepreneurs to have access to that. A lot 
of people in this age group really do want to start their own 
business. They want to be their own boss, and it is really hard 
to get loans for them.
    Senator Casey. Thank you.
    Mr. Godwin. I would add, as Senator Kaine knows, we have a 
high percentage of veterans in Virginia, and I would ask you to 
preserve and enhance the educational benefits for veterans. 
That really benefits the older population as well.
    Senator Casey. Thanks very much.
    The Chairman. Thank you.
    Senator Kaine.
    Senator Kaine. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to the 
witnesses, and Mr. Godwin, welcome from our home town.
    You know, I came to the hearing really thinking about the 
work needs of older workers, and what I found myself thinking 
in your testimony is this question of flexibility for workers. 
Mr. Godwin, your testimony is about your particular industry. 
It is not just for older workers. It was for in a health care 
field that was very much dominated by women workers. It was 
schedules that were appropriately flexed for family needs, and 
so you guys may have been kind of culturally a pioneer, some of 
the flexible work arrangements, and yet that really does seem 
to be a broader trend for older workers and others.
    My dad sold his manufacturing business and decided he 
wanted to just be a volunteer for a local Catholic Charities 
organization and volunteer one or two days a week. Then they 
said, ``Well, we would really like to hire you.'' ``Well, I do 
not want to be hired because I want more flexibility.'' They 
struck a deal where he is working like a day or two a week as a 
volunteer and then being paid for a day or two a week, but with 
flexibility every week in terms of how many days he works. My 
dad is 80 years old, and his arrangement is very similar to my 
middle son, who is an artist and works in a restaurant just 
enough hours to make enough money to do his art, which is what 
he really wants to do, and he said that everybody who works at 
the restaurant is just like him. They are all artists. They are 
all working enough to have an income that will support their 
artistic passion.
    It strikes me that we are maybe moving into a new age of 
work where the traditional sort of 40-hour work week, the 9-to-
5 is probably less and less the case, whether it is for seniors 
or others.
    Senator Warner, my colleague in Virginia, recently gave a 
great speech. He said, ``If you see a young person, do not ask 
them, `Where do you work?' Ask them, `What are you working on?' 
'' That is a much a better question for their particular 
condition.
    I applaud you guys at Bon Secours for being a pioneer on 
the flexibility side. How hard is that for you as a human 
relations professional? You guys are open 24/7/365, so you have 
a lot of staffing slots to fill, but if we can put the word out 
to more and more employers that flexibility is a great way to 
find great workers who want flexibility, I think it is a highly 
prized thing if you are a worker and you want flexibility and 
you can find an employer that will give it.
    As a human relations professional, what challenges does 
that pose to your organization?
    Mr. Godwin. Well, the challenge is--and what I would 
challenge the lawmakers and employers to look at is flexibility 
is not just about scheduling. It is about telecommuting, and it 
is about the nature of the work and how you redesign the 
workspace, so flexibility is a lot more than just scheduling.
    The challenge for us, I think, has been over time to keep 
reinventing ourselves. We do not rest on our laurels and think 
that whatever idea we have come up with now is going to fit how 
things are going to be five years from now. We are constantly 
studying, we are constantly looking at other employers, 
learning from panels like this, and from a lot of the awards we 
apply for, for employer awards, because there is a lot to be 
learned there as well, to see how we can continually improve 
that. You cannot just do it like you are doing it now. You have 
to continually change.
    Senator Kaine. The fact that you guys have--Bon Secours has 
been so awarded since 2005 by AARP and others as a great place 
for older workers has been a real tribute to that culture, and 
I applaud you for that, but yes, I think the hearing is really 
getting at the notion that not just for older workers but for a 
lot of folks, just the world of work is changing and the way--
you know, people used to go to work for one organization and 
stay with an organization for their entire life. You do not see 
that happening much anymore, either, so there is flexibility in 
who you work with during a career, and this is getting at it.
    Dr. Rix, I could not resist in the questions about Social 
Security disability, which was not my intent, but you said you 
think we do need to reform it, but obviously, we do not want to 
gut Social Security to reform Social Security disability, but I 
would love to hear your thoughts for us, because I think we do 
have to grapple with the notion of Social Security disability 
and, in fact, reforms of it, so that people who are disabled 
and need it know that they can count on it, so I would just be 
curious as to your thoughts about reform, because we do have to 
tackle it.
    Dr. Rix. Well, if you would indulge me, I would really 
prefer to defer to my colleagues who are far more expert on the 
disability insurance program than I am. It is a complicated 
system. There have been reform proposals for years and years, 
and I think I will leave it to the true Social Security.
    Senator Kaine. Well, I would love to talk to some of the 
folks with your organization about it. You know, I think 
sometimes there is a tendency, if you talk about reform, that, 
you know, the bells go off and people say you are trying to gut 
the program. You know, we have been willing, Congress 
corporately has been willing since Social Security passed in 
the 1930's to make adjustments and tweaks to keep it 
actuarially sound so that, you know, we can have it there for 
us and it can be there for the next generation, and I do not 
want to be like the first generation of Congress that is 
unwilling to make changes to make sure that it is there for the 
next, so I do think there is need for reforms, and if your 
organization has ideas about that, I would be quite interested 
in it. With that, thank you, Madam Chair.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much, Senator. We enjoyed 
hearing your exchange with your constituent.
    One of the takeaways that I have from this hearing is that 
older workers often are more dependable, bring certain skills, 
allow employers to avoid retraining and turnover that may occur 
with a younger workforce, but that flexibility is very 
important to them, and I think it is very interesting that Ms. 
Nordman's testimony was that she has a worker who comes in very 
early in the day to start working, and Mr. Godwin also talked 
about flexible hours and making sure that grandchildren could 
come to the daycare center.
    It seems to me that another lesson from this hearing is 
that we need to tailor more of our programs to make sure that 
people have the skills that are for the jobs that exist, that 
there is often a mismatch between job training and the jobs 
that actually are out there, and I was interested to learn of 
the Occupational Handbook that Ms. Hannon mentioned, and Dr. 
Rix also talked about the need to better align the training and 
education for the workforce for older workers, or any workers, 
with the jobs that are actually out there, so I think this has 
been a very interesting exploration of this issue.
    One of the goals of our Committee is to explore the issue 
of retirement security. In our State of Maine, the State that 
Ms. Nordman and I live in, one out of three retired individuals 
lives only on Social Security, and the average Social Security 
benefit is less than $16,000 a year, so the kind of jobs that 
Ms. Nordman is providing in an area of the State that is very 
rural and does not have a lot of employers is so essential to 
the financial security of those workers that you are employing, 
and indeed, I would wager that it is the difference between a 
comfortable standard of living and poverty for many of them, 
because if they are living on just their Social Security, they 
are going to have a very difficult time.
    I just want to express my personal appreciation for your 
willingness to leave the more affluent urban areas of our State 
and come to rural Maine, buy a business, keep it alive, grow 
it, and employ older workers. You are really making the kind of 
difference that a good employer can make, and in the end, it 
does come down to employers being able to do what you are 
doing, what Mr. Godwin is doing, to accommodate workers, and in 
return you get a wonderfully loyal, devoted, and hardworking 
workforce, as both of you have explained.
    I also very much appreciate our two technical experts for 
being here today and sharing your expertise with the Committee 
as we continue to explore this issue.
    I think this is an issue that has not received the 
attention that it deserves, and I think we are facing a tsunami 
of retirees who will find that they are going to outlive their 
savings, that they have not prepared for their retirement, and 
working longer or working part-time or returning to work is a 
very important part of financial security for older Americans, 
and that is a message that I hope our Committee is helping to 
disseminate.
    I want to thank you all very much for being here today. I 
want to see if our Ranking Member has any closing comments that 
she would like to make.
    Senator McCaskill. No, and I just want to clarify that my 
points about the challenges of health care for workers between 
50 and 65, I understand, Ms. Nordman, you are doing something 
that is very unusual in our country, and that is, trying to 
revitalize manufacturing in rural communities. I grew up for 
part of my childhood in a town called Lebanon, Missouri, where 
we had a facility that was manufacturing jeans, and it is, of 
course, long gone, and many other facilities like that across 
Missouri and rural communities that provided important 
manufacturing opportunities.
    I get the challenges, and I get that what you are doing and 
the fact that you have got ten and you are looking for two 
more, that shows that you are smart and you are doing the right 
thing and you are expanding your workers, because obviously you 
have got demand and you are producing something that people 
want to buy, so congratulations on that, and to all of you, 
thank you very much.
    The Chairman. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank 
you for your extraordinary participation always in putting 
together this hearing. I want to note that Senator Sasse was 
also here for part of the hearing today, and I want to thank 
all of our witnesses for their contributions.
    The hearing record will remain open for additional 
testimony and questions until Friday, July 10th. We are giving 
the holiday week to have a little bit of additional time, and I 
also want to thank the Committee staff for their hard work.
    This concludes our hearing.
    [Whereupon, at 3:16 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
      
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                                APPENDIX

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                      Prepared Witness Statements

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