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("NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

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aTED STATES SENATE

IGHTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG TO BE

SECRETARY OF LABOR

JANUARY 13, 1961

Printed for the use of the Committee on Labor and Public Welfare

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

64361 WASHINGTON : 1961
COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE

LISTER HILL, Alabama, Chairman

PAT McNAMARA, Michigan

WAYNE MORSE, Oregon

RALPH YARBOROUGH, Texas

JOSEPH S. CLARK, Pennsylvania

JENNINGS RANDOLPH, West Virginia

HARRISON A. WILLIAMS, JR., New Jersey

QUENTIN N. BURDICK, North Dakota

BENJAMIN A. SMITH II, Massachusetts

CLAIBORNE PELL, Rhode Island

STEwART E. MCCLURE, Chief Clerk

JOHN S. FORSYTHE, General Counsel

II

BARRY GOLDWATER, Arizona

EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois

CLIFFORD P. CASE, New Jersey

JACOB K. JAVITS, New York

WINSTON L. PROUTY, Vermont
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG TO BE

SECRETARY OF LABOR

FRIDAY, JANUARY 13, 1961

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, at 10:30 a.m., pursuant to notice, in room 4232,

New Senate Office Building, Hon. Lister Hill (chairman of the committee) presiding.

Present: Senators Hill, McNamara, Yarborough, Clark, Randolph,

Burdick, Smith of Massachusetts, Pell, Goldwater, Dirksen, Case of

New Jersey, Javits, and Prouty.

Committee staff members present: Stewart E. McClure, chief clerk;

John S. Forsythe, general counsel; Frederick R. Blackwell, Samuel V.

Merrick, and Edward Friedman, associate counsels; Michael Bernstein, minority counsel; Raymond Hurley and John Stringer, associate

minority counsels.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will kindly come to order.

We regret this delay in starting our proceedings this morning, but

I must say that there are a number of other committees having important meetings which make it impossible for some of our members

to be here.

Mr. Goldberg, we are very happy to welcome you here this morning. We shall be delighted to have you make any statement now that

you might see fit in reference to your qualifications to be Secretary of

Labor.

STATEMENT OF HON. ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG, SECRETARY OF

LABOR-DESIGNATE

Mr. GOLDBERG. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee,

although I am not a stranger before this committee, I think it appropriate that I make a few remarks concerning my biography and background and a few of my views as I embark upon this new assignment

with which Senator Kennedy has honored me.

My name is Arthur J. Goldberg. I have been invited to appear

before this committee because I have been designated by Presidentelect Kennedy as the Secretary of Labor in the forthcoming administration.

I was born in Chicago, Ill., in 1908. I was educated in the public

schools of Chicago, including the junior college established by the city

of Chicago and received by bachelor's degree, a B.S.L., and a law

degree of juris doctor from Northwestern University.

1
2 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

1

I was admitted to practice in Illinois in 1929. I have discovered

to my regret, should I say, that I am the second oldest man in the

Cabinet designated by the President-elect.

I am a member of the Bar of the State of Illinois, as well as of the

Bar of the District of Columbia, and the U.S. Supreme Court.

I married then Miss Dorothy Kurgans on July 18, 1931, and I

have two children, Barbara, who is a graduate student at the University of Chicago, and Robert, who is a sophomore at Amherst College.

I practiced law in the city of Chicago until 1948, with the exception

of the war years during which I served as a major in the U.S. Army

assigned to the Office of Strategic Services.

In 1948 I came to Washington where I have served as general

counsel of the CIO while the CIO was in existence before the merger

and of the United Steelworkers of America.

Since the merger of the AFL and CIO, I have served as special

counsel to the AFL—CIO as well as general counsel to the Industrial

Union Department of the AFL—CIO and the Steelworkers Union.

I have been the senior partner in the Washington law firm of Goldberg, Feller & Bredhoff, which has represented various labor organizations, as well as in the Chicago firm of Goldberg, Devoe, Shadur

& Mikva.

Effective January 1, 1961, I have resigned as special counsel to

the AFL—CIO, as general counsel to the Steelworkers Union, and to

the AFL—CIO Industrial Union Department, and I have terminated

my connection with both law firms.

These resignations are firm and final.

I have also resigned from the various foundations and boards on

which I have served.

As of the moment, I have no connection with any law firm, and I

hold no positions in any organizations except one.

Following what I believe to be an illustrious precedent, I have not

resigned my position as a member of the Board of Overseers of the

Amos Tuck School of Business Administration of Dartmouth College.

I have already stated in public my view with respect to the functions of the Department of Labor and the manner in which I propose,

if confirmed, to fulfill my responsibilities as Secretary upon my

confirmation.

My view, briefly stated, is that our society is not a class society

and the Department of Labor is not and should not be a class

department.

The Department of Labor is charged by statute with the responsibility of promoting the welfare of the wage earners of the United

States. As Secretary, I will attempt fully to implement that policy,

but in so doing I do not believe the Department should be regarded

as the representative of any special interest group but as a Department representing all sections and interests in our society.

It is my firm belief that although each department of government

necessarily must place special emphasis on the sphere of activity

with which it is concerned, it must, within that sphere, speak for and

promote the welfare of all Americans and not any special group

or class.

If I am confirmed as Secretary of Labor, I intend to administer the

Department in accordance with that belief.
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

Of particular concern to me, if I am confirmed, will be the improvement of labor-management relations and the growth of the American

economy. Both of these areas I believe to be vitally important and of

particular concern to the Department of Labor.

In both areas I propose to act as the representative in this administration of the public interest as I am sure all of my future colleagues

in the Cabinet likewise feel obligated and committed to do.

The Congress of the United States has given to the Secretary of

Labor the responsibility of administration and enforcement of various

laws. These include not only the Fair Labor Standards Act, the

Walsh-Healey Act, the Davis-Bacon Act, and others, but also the

Labor-Management Reporting and Disclosure Act of 1959.

I wish to make perfectly clear that if I am confirmed as Secretary.

of Labor I shall do everything in my power to enforce these laws vigorously, fairly, and without fear or favor, and in the spirit of humanity

and commonsense which I believe should characterize all law enforcement.

I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and the members of this committee, for the opportunity you have given me to express these views,

and I, of course, am anxious to answer any questions which you may

have.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Goldberg.

Senator Goldwater has another very important committee at which

he must be present at 11 o'clock, so, if there is no objection, I am

going to ask Senator Goldwater to proceed with any questions which

he might wish to ask.

Senator GOLDWATER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say my responsibilities at the other committee are only those of introducing my

constituent, Mr. Udall, who is going to be Secretary of Interior. That

will not take very long.

If other members of the committee have questions, I might go to

11. My questions are not numerous, but I do not know how long we

will be in discussing them.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought you might get started.

Senator GOLDWATER. I might do that.

The CHAIRMAN. With great respect to the other committee, they

might not start on time just as this committee did not start on time

this morning, due to the fact that there are so many committee meetings simultaneously.

Senator GOLDWATER. All right, Mr. Chairman.

First, I want to say that Arthur Goldberg is probably Senator Kennedy's most outstanding choice of a Cabinet member. We know that

Arthur and I do not agree all the time, but we disagree in a gentlemanly way, and I have very high respect for your technical knowledge

and for the devotion to your country that you have exhibited in this

statement.

I congratulate you for it.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Thank you.

Senator GOLDWATER. The questions I have are merely perfunctory

ones which I as a member of the minority party would feel remiss in

my duties if I did not ask, in order to have the record clear.

Mr. Goldberg, the Democratic platform declares:

The right to a job requires action to break down artificial and arbitrary barriers

to employment based on age, race, sex, religion, or national origin.
4 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

Would you favor legislative measures to achieve these objectives?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I think, Mr. Chairman, and Senator Goldwater,

that we must do everything we can within the executive branch of

the Government in order to achieve these objectives, which I think

are shared by both parties.

The Republican platform also makes reference to the necessity of

assuring to all of our citizens equal opportunity.

I think when it comes to legislative recommendations to the Congress, I am a member of an administration.

President-elect Kennedy is the leader of that administration. I

will, of course, as one of his advisers, hope to give him the benefit of

my views, and I will do so in discharge of my responsibilities.

At the moment, I think that much can be done within the executive

branch of the Government. Something has been done in this area.

I have read with great interest the report of Vice President Nixon

and his colleagues, who have vigorously and helpfully embarked in

this area and have made some notable contributions, and I think I

would like to consult and advise with the President as to what his

legislative program will be in this area.

Senator GOLDWATER. You know, as we all know, that discrimination is practiced in some unions. I am happy to note that it is not

as prevalent as it used to be.

Do you feel that through your office and your association with labor

leaders, you can take more steps to break down this discrimination so

that we will not have to have legislation in this field or do you feel

that ultimately we may have to legislate to prohibit this?

Mr. GOLDBERG. As of January 1, I can no longer speak in association with or for the labor movement. At this moment I must speak

as an unemployed man with plenty of work to do, but I feel very

strongly that in all elements of our society, not only labor unions, but

all elements of our society, we must do a better job than we have done

in this area.

I should like to canvass what can be done, what has been done,

before rushing to the Congress with new legislative recommendations.

Senator GOLDWATER. I would hope that, in a cooperative way with

the leaders of labor, you and anyone you choose to help you might

be able to iron this out.

I do think it is a bad reflection upon the labor movement to

find discrimination still being practiced in a few of our unions in some

places in this country and I would hope that we could work it out

without the processes of law.

Mr. GOLDBERG. I have felt very strongly for many years, Senator

Goldwater, that in the area of labor unions and in the area of management and in many other areas of American life, while notable advances

have been made in this area, more can be done by personal, voluntary

action in this field.

I would hope to add my influence as Secretary of Labor, if and

when I am confirmed, to this end.

Senator GOLDWATER. Now, Mr. Goldberg, again referring to the

Democratic platform, I quote:

We will repeal the authorization for right-to-work laws, limitations on the

right to strike, to picket peacefully and tell the public the facts of a labor dispute

and other antilabor features of the Taft-Hartley Act and the 1959 act.
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 5

The first question on that is:

Do you favor repeal of section 14(b) of the Taft-Hartley Act, thus

invalidating the State right-to-work laws?

Mr. GOLDBERG. My views as a private citizen in this matter, of

course, are well known to this committee.

I have testified on several occasions on this subject.

I cannot in all candor say that the views that I held as a private

citizen disappeared because I have been given this high honor.

However, I am part of an administration. I will give my advice to

the President who must determine the priorities, the recommendations.

I do not know whether he will heed my views, but I have felt—

as you know, and I have talked about this very much —that it is a

matter of sound Federal labor policy not to have this provision in the

act.

But what will come out of our administration

'

my chief, the leader

of our country when he is sworn in, will have to lead the way and

I, as an administration adviser, and as a representative of the administration, will have to work loyally with my chief in the priorities

that he assigns to the objectives we face.

Senator GOLDWATER. In the discussion that you held with him,

have you touched on this particular problem?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I have not. I have not been able, within the

time which has occurred since he has given me the high honor of

designating me as Secretary, of Labor, to review all of the matters

which are encompassed either in the Democratic platform or in the

Republican platform.

Senator GOLDWATER. Forget that.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Or all of the items which are naturally the subject

of legislative recommendations.

I must say in this area, Senator Goldwater, that personally, and

I do not mind saying this personally, I think one of the first priority

tasks, as I see it, and this again is only a personal view, is to deal

with the state of our economy.

Senator GOLDWATER. Just one more question in this field, and I

would like to get back to your last statement.

Can you tell us as of now whether it is your intention to recommend

to the President that 14(b) be repealed?

Mr. GOLDBERG. It is my intention to state to the President what

views I have held for a long time, which I have not changed, but it

is my intention loyally to support his own determination of what are

the priorities that must be accorded to legislation.

Senator GOLDWATER. Now, this is not in the form of a direct

question, but your last comment prior to my last question prompted

me to digress from my question for just a moment.

The labor movement through its leaders have often expressed

fear of automation. Now, it is my belief that unless we replace antiquated machinery in our industrial setup, and some of it as you know

goes back 60 and 70 years in age, and I think I heard the total of

some $90 billion worth of antiquated machinery is in our enterprise

system, unless we automate to the fullest and at the same time

train displaced workers so that they can take other jobs, it is my

feeling that this country's economy is in for a very bad time with

foreign competition, not from the standpoint of wages, wage differ-
6 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

entials necessarily, but because foreign industry is installing modern,

mechanized production while we have lagged behind in this.

Do you share this fear of automation that some of the labor leaders

have expressed?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I am in entire agreement with you that we have

a distinct problem with automation and that problem is in two

aspects, one of which you have adverted to and I fully agree with

what you have said.

The figure you mentioned of $90 billion is a figure which McGrawHill, a reputable publishing company has assembled, $75 to $90

billion.

It is imperative, if we are to retain our preeminence in the industrial

world, if we are to afford jobs, if we are to meet the competitive

forces which are operating worldwide today, that we replace outmoded

equipment with new equipment.

It is true that a considerable part of our industrial machinery and

plant and equipment needs modernization and needs replacement.

I feel strongly, and have said publicly, that the labor movement

must support this necessary progress for the benefit of the country,

for the benefit of industry, and for the benefit of labor.

Now, coupled with that, I have felt strongly, and I am sure everybody will agree, that we must have appropriate programs and policies

so that the great benefits that we derive from automation do not

impose burdens in human terms upon people.

One of the challenges that we are now confronted with is to see to

it, No. 1, that we automate completely, fully, and at the same time,

that we devise programs so that human values are preserved. We

cannot go through the hardships and the misery that accompanied

the first industrial revolution and I do not think there is any difference

in any segment of American life about this.

One of the big problems of this administration, and it has been

the problem of the last one, but one of the big problems of this administration is to help devise plans to spur our free management and our

free labor movement and Government to develop programs; so that

on the one hand we get the full potential of automation and on the

other hand safeguard against hardships that happen to individuals, to

families, when automation takes place.

I must say that I am confident that this can be done.

I am not despairing that we must again repeat the horrible experience that took place when the first factories were introduced

on the industrial scene.

Senator GOLDWATER. I agree with you. I am wondering, in your

capacity as Secretary of Labor, in the event you go through with

what I think is the very laudable proposal you made sometime ago,

of calling a management-labor conference, whether this problem could

not be one of the top priorities at such a conference, the problem of

how to train the man who is displaced by automation or new

machinery.

I will put it this way: Would that not be a proper item to be near

the top in priorities in any such conference of labor-management,

trying to beat the Government to the necessity of moving in this

field?

I think if management is properly approached and if the labor

movement is properly aware of this, that the two of them together

can provide the training.
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 7

I think they would be glad to provide the training so that men who

are displaced by pushbuttons can find employment in other fields.

Mr. GOLDBERG. I am of course, very hopeful that this administration will promote what has been started in the last one on a stepped-up

basis.

Conversations, conferences between labor and management, and I

think Government has a role, too, because of the employment service

and the other agencies of the Government which are necessarily

involved, such as Health, Education, and Welfare, in seeing to it that

we take care of the problems of what is a changing labor force.

It is perfectly obvious and clear what is happening in American

life, just as what is happening in industrial life.

What is happening in industrial life is very analogous to what is

happening in agricultural life. The labor force is decreasing; the white

collar, technical, and professional force is increasing.

We need not despair about this. One of the great developments in

life is take off the backs of men some of the arduous labors that they

have had to experience.

Now, we must take care of the people involved in the process.

I have great confidence in the people involved. I think that the

people involved in production have the capacity and intelligence to

take on new assignments.

You have put your finger on it. We must have more extensive

programs of retraining and readjustment so that people can find

useful employment.

What we need more than anything else, although we need relief

now on unemployment compensation, because it is running out,

States are in trouble; what we need more than anything else are

jobs, and training and readjustment play an important part in providing jobs for all people who are willing and want to work.

Senator GOLDWATER. I agree with you that this is probably going

to be the greatest challenge that the Kennedy administration faces

in this whole domestic field. I think you are going to find Republicans

just as eager to help as Democrats.

We may differ in the way we feel the help should be directed, but

this involves in my opinion, and I think you agree, not only the labor

and management problems as they relate to each other and people,

but also the broad problems involved in the subject of taxation,

which, in my opinion have to be attacked if we are going to really

relieve unemployment and unshackle the American economy.

It is getting close to 11 o'clock. I have one or two questions on the

last part of the Democratic platform.

Knowing of your feeling about 14(b), and knowing a little bit about

the President-elect's feeling about 14(b), I feel like the fellow who has

two strikes on him. I wonder if this means that you would favor .going

back to the Wagner Act under which the States were free to act in the

field of compulsory unionism in any way they wished, or do you favor

completely denying the States the right to act with respect to compulsory unions?

Mr. GOLDBERG. It is very difficult to go back in light of the develo e -

ments of recent years. The Wagner Act played a most salu

at its time in promoting the welfare of the wage earners of

States, and in helping to develop ways of industrial peace

ing our domestic prosperity.

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8 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

I think now we must take a new look at our problems in this area.

The new look must be in the light of all of the developments that

have occurred in the congressional field and in the industrial field,

but I would hope that we could again come to the point of view where

the Government does not impose restrictions upon the area of collective bargaining within the role of proper Government policy.

Under the Taft-Hartley Act, for example, the union shop was

recognized to be a desirable goal of Government if freely negotiated

between labor and management.

I would oppose Government imposition of the closed shop or the

union shop on American industry.

What I would favor is freedom between labor and management to

negotiate what are appropriate forms of union security for labor and

management, in particular industries and even in particular companies.

Senator GOLDWATER. You would not be in favor of legalizing the

closed shop or the union shop?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I would be in favor of allowing, by law, management and labor in collective bargaining to establish the form of union

security which is best suitable to their needs.

I would be against Government saying to them you must have

this type of union security.

Senator GOLDWATER. Earlier I asked you a question concerning

the repeal of 14(b). I have noticed an NAACP report criticizing

the AFL—CIO for not doing enough to eliminate discrimination.

They stated that the NLRB is partly responsible for the continued

existence of such discrimination because, and I quote:

The National Labor Relations Board was held partly responsible because it had

done little to enforce the labor ban against hiring of colored union members.

SO it appears that even the union movement is beginning to look

more kindly on the right to work in 14(b).

Mr. GOLDBERG. I am restrained from making comments about

the NLRB because it is an independent agency of the Government

and it is not within my purview to make comments upon what it

ought to do or ought not to do.

I would be violating what I know from my experience are jurisdictional lines and no subject is more sensitive than that.

Senator GOLDWATER. Now, in the platform they also say that they

will repeal limitations on the right to strike. Just what are the

limitations on the right to strike under the existing Federal law

which the new administration would favor repealing?

Mr. GOLDBERG. Here, .too, I have not had the benefit of a policy

discussion with Senator Kennedy on what revisions or amendments

of the basic Taft-Hartley Act, as recently amended, would be recommended to the Congress.

I think philosophically it is my conviction, and I will feel free

to state that conviction, the right to strike should be exercised in my

opinion, sparingly because it is a right which has to be exercised

responsibly. It is nevertheless an important ingredient in a free

society.

I agree entirely with President Eisenhower when he said some

years ago that there are worse things than the right to strike and one

of the worst things and the worst thing, is the loss of freedom.

We know in totalitarian countries the right to strike does not

exist. This is the earmark of a free society as contrasted to a totali-
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 9

tarian society, such as what they have in Russia, what they had in

Germany; the right to strike is prohibited in those countries and we

enjoy the right to strike.

We may suffer under it, but we have it.

I think what the Democratic platform is talking about in this area

is the whole knotty area of, for example, a national emergency strike,

what do you do about that?

Here I find again in reading both platforms that there is not much

difference in them, in the Republican as well as in the Democratic

platform. There is a feeling in this critical area that we have not

fashioned the right solution.

Senator GOLDWATER. I might say I think that is why we lost the

election, but go ahead.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Senator, again I want to respect jurisdictional

lines and not give advice to the liepublicans. You are much better

qualified to do that than I am.

Senator GOLDWATER. The reason that I ask that question is because it is one that interests me. I, too, believe the right to strike

is a right that we must protect.

I think it is probably the only real weapon when you get down to

it that the workingman has always had.

I was just wondering whether in your experience there are limitations on the right to strike which are harmful or which wrongly

deprive workers of basic freedoms.

Mr. GOLDBERG. I would hope at an appropriate time when I have

had a chance to consult with the President-elect that I will appear

before this committee and make some recommendations for revisions

of our basic labor statutes, which I think all sides would recognize

require some revisions.

I have had a little experience in this area sitting as a member of

the committee of this Senate appointed by the chairman and the

members of the Labor-Management Subcommittee of this committee

last year.

This was a tripartite committee consisting of representatives of

management, people associated with labor, and the public.

The surprising thing is that after we wrestled around for several

months, we came up with the unanimous report to the Senate involving some of these areas. What we did not explore at the time because

time did not permit was this whole area, Senator, that you are now

talking about.

I would hope that we would have a chance to look at it and in that

look in my new capacity, I am not going to only invite the views of

labor leaders as to what they believe, but I am going to invite the

views of management and I am going to invite the views of the public

as to what is and should be the appropriate labor policy for our country

in the present situation.

Senator GOLDWATER. Mr. Goldberg, I have to go to introduce my

colleague in the Interior Committee. I am sure that my colleagues

on this side and the other side have questions to ask. When I get

back I will take up where I left off.

The CHAIRMAN. Come back, Senator, when you have an opportunity.

Senator McNamara.
10 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

Senator MCNAMARA. Mr. Chairman, I have read the statement by

the Secretary designate and, first, I want to apologize for being late,

but I had a prior commitment to do a short television program downtown dealing with the problems of the aged.

I got here as quickly as I could.

I want to assure Mr. Goldberg that this was something I could not

avoid, otherwise I would have been here.

I think the statement is fine. I think it sets forth your very fine

qualifications for the job. I think the indication that there is no

danger of any conflict of interest, as the statement points out, is very.

laudable.

I think we are very fortunate to have a person of this caliber willing

to take on a tremendous job such as this in Government at considerable

sacrifice.

Mr. Chairman, the record up to now I think might leave some

question about where the labor leaders stand on the matter of automation. I do not know exactly where they stand, either, but I am

of the opinion that the responsible labor leaders have not expressed

fear or opposition to automation, but have expressed a great hope

the benefits of automation will be distributed to all segments of our

society.

Is this a correct assumption on my part?

Mr. GOLDBERG. Senator McNamara, that is absolutely correct.

All responsible labor leaders, and I think the people who work,

recognize and welcome automation. Obvtously a coal miner, for

example, who a generation ago worked on his hands and knees with

a pick and shovel to bring coal out of coal mines, welcomed the introduction of the machines which revolutionized the coal industry of

America and which made our coal mines 10 times as productive as

coal mines in other parts of the world.

What I think is necessary, however, is a reassurance through proper

programs that human values are preserved in this process and the

concern about automation is not against automation. The concern

about automation is that we should push the process of accelerating

automation in our country so that we can keep our place in the world

and take a preeminent position in the world, and that we should

adopt programs to protect human beings in the process.

The distressed areas bill which the Senate passed twice, is an

example of an effort in this direction which I think all men would

want to support.

Senator MCNAMARA. I think we are in substantial agreement on

this point. I might just add that I think automation can lead to a

more abundant life for everybody.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Right.

Senator MCNAMARA. And certainly labor leaders must accept

this. I think as far as I know they do accept this philosophy.

I like the fact that you, in answering the questions propounded by

the minority member of the committee, stressed your belief in collective barganing. I think there is a great need for people in your

position to express confidence in industry and the encouragement of

both sides within an industry to get together to solve their own

problems as far as humanly possible.

I am encouraged by that remark.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Thank you.
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 11

Senator MCNAMARA. Mr. Chairman, with that, I have no further

comments or questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions, Senator Yarborough?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Not at this time, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Case?

Senator CASE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no questions.

I do want to express my personal feelings that this is one of the

best appointments that the President-elect has made. I am very

happy indeed to welcome him insofar as the minority side of this

committee is concerned. I am counting on his advice and support

in the effort we are all going to make.

Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Clark?

Senator CLARK. Mr. Chairman, I share the enthusiasm of Senator

Goldwater and Senator Case for this appointment which I think is

one of the best that the President-elect has made.

I have no questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Javits?

Senator JAvrrs. Mr. Chairman, I would like to join my colleagues

who have already spoken and state my approval of the nominee as

an American and as a thinking human being.

I have known him for a quarter of a century. I think that the

President-elect has given us a man whom we can work with in the

interests of our country.

I look forward to that kind of cooperation with great anticipation.

I do have one or two questions I would like to put to the nominee.

I notice that you say in your statement, and, of course, we all

applaud that and it is quite typical of what has made you a distinguished member of our community, the Department, as you will

administer it, will not be regarded "as the representative of any

special interest group", and ask whether you will feel perfectly free to

deal with the other side of the coin mentioned by Senator Goldwater,

to wit: what is popularly called featherbedding, without fear or

favor, without any relation to past labor connections and within the

context of the struggle for survival in which our country and the whole

free world is now engaged and in which productivity is so keenly an

important part.

Mr. GOLDBERG. When I took this assignment, Senator Javits, I

took it without reservation. I feel strongly that obsolete practices,

whether on the part of labor or management, can impede the orderly

development of our country and can indeed restrain us from meeting

with the great problems that we have.

Now, I think we are in unprecedented times. I think we are really

in a war situation. We call it a cold war, but we need a general

consciousness on the part of labor and management and all elements of

our society that the traditional way and traditional practices no longer

settle the grave problems that we have.

I think on the question of featherbedding that you raise that no

laboring man wants to featherbed.

If the American character is manifest in any area it is manifest in

the desire to do an honest day's work. That is a traditional aspect

of our society. That relates to all aspects, all people, whether it is

the man who works in a blue collar or in a white collar.
12 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

This is part of the same problem that is involved in automation.

The people will insist upon traditional practices when they feel this

is the only way of safeguarding their jobs and that there are not

adequate programs for seeing to it that they enjoy a reasonable amount

of security.

Given programs that will give assurance to men who work for a

living that their needs, their human needs will be safeguarded, and

protected, I think whatever amount of featherbedding exists will

become de minimus.

The difficulty in this area, as I have studied it throughout the years,

is that this will become a problem where we do not have overall

solutions for our basic industrial problems.

I am confident we can develop those solutions. I am confident that

when that occurs the problems in this area will become minimal.

Senator JAVITS. I thank you very much for that answer, sir. I

think it is well known here, I feel strongly on that point, myself, I

would like to ask one or two other questions.

Do you believe that the American economy can afford to give these

very assurances, these very elements of security, these very elements

of what we call adjustments to systems which the workingman is fully

entitled to as a human being in order to make these transitions.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes; I am fully confident that the American

economy can do it. I think we have a great economy. I think we

can have a greater economy, and I think with proper programs of

labor and of management and government we can provide for a better

standard of living for ourselves; we can provide for more efficient production which is the key to the better economy which we all seek and

we can provide for playing our necessary part in promoting the welfare

of the other nations of the world who desperately need help and assistance from us.

Senator JAVITS. Now, do you believe that our country is facing a

great challenge in materially increasing its productivity in the sinews,

as it were, of the cold war, the basic industrial goods which it requires?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I think it is imperative that we do that. I think

that we have to increase our productivity, and I think it is entirely

possible and feasible to do it, and that the demands upon us domestically and in the world require it, and I am confident that it can be done.

Senator JAVITS. Do you feel also that your Department will have,

within the confines of your own words that it necessarily place special

emphasis on the sphere of activity with which it is concerned, and I

quote your words, will it have a responsibility with respect to the

American working man to see, as in war, that we really bring our

productivity up to its highest point?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I firmly believe so.

I think one of the desperate needs of the present hour is to restore

the feeling of mutual purpose and common interest which characterized the effort of the business community, the industrial community,

and the labor community during the war.

Senator JAVITS. Do you feel, and, of course, this is at peace with

your view, and I certainly share your view, that the featherbedding

question is just as vital with respect to management as it is with respect to many elements of labor, do you feel that your operations must

be within the context of the total national policy?
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 13

For instance, there is beginning to be some stirring in the labor ranks

about the question of foreign trade and a new attitude is manifesting

itself in some areas of labor with respect to protectionism.

Now, do you feel that the policy you should administer should be

the national policy, taking labor in as part of its context, but not a

specialized policy with respect to labor?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I think here, too, obviously, the President will

have to 'set our goals in this area and there are other departments

and agencies of the Government that have a vital interest, but I am

quite confident that the labor activity in this situation, in cooperation

with a national policy and with other Government agencies, can play

a vital role in the area, Senator Javits, that you mention.

Senator JAVITS. Finally, how do you consider our national posture;

we are not at war; we are not at peace. Where do you think we stand

with the urgency upon us of all of the measures that we have been discussing?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I think we have a more urgent situation than in

wartime. In wartime it is obvious that we can command and call

upon the whole population and get the necessary responses that we

require.

War is a horrible thing, but in a sense there is no problem when a

war is on to mobilize our entire resources and to get the cooperation

that we need from all elements of our population.

Now, we are in a situation which is neither war nor peace, which we

characterize as a cold war. This is the most difficult of all situations

to be in, but at the same time we cannot meet this problem unless we

are able to mobilize our people to this challenge.

I think we have to do more than we have done to alert all elements

in our population that this situation which we are in, which may continue for a generation or several generations, makes it imperative

that everybody recognize that he must play an important and responsible and active role in meeting the same challenges that exist in

period of total war, and that is asserting, as the first consideration, the

national interest as against any separate or private interest.

Senator JAVITS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr.

Goldberg.

At this point I would like to insert in the record a telegram I received from Frank M. Cruger, president, National Small Businessmen's Association, endorsing 1r. Goldberg.

(The telegram referred to follows:)

WASHINGTON, D.C., January 12, 1961.

Senator JACOB J. JAVITS,

Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.:

This association heartily endorses the nomination of Arthur J. Goldberg as

Secretary of Labor. We feel the small business community and the Nation can

look forward to a reasonable and fair administration of the Labor Department

under his guidance.

FRANK M. CRUGER,

President, National Small Businessmens Association.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Randolph?

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Goldberg, the increase in unemployment

in December was approximately 500,000 above the November figure.

Would you say that, in your discharge of the duties you will soon

undertake, it will be your purpose to promptly inform the American
14 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

public in reference to the state of our economy from the standpoint

of employment?

I do not want to go back, but I think there has been at times a

reluctance to give to the American people the hard facts of a certain

situation which may not be a pleasant situation.

Would you say to this committee that it would be your purpose

to give the American people the facts as of the date they become

available?

Mr. GOLDBERG. Senator Randolph, one of my firm convictions is

that the American people, the American public, through the press

and the other agencies, is entitled to the plain, unadulterated facts

dealing with important national issues.

We have a serious problem in unemployment; it is becoming more

serious.

It is my hope, and I intend to do it if confirmed, that we will set

fixed dates, and this is with due regard and with no lack of respect

for what the past policies have been—I have no criticism about them,

and I have high respect, and I have so publicly indicated, for the

outgoing Secretary of Labor. It is my firm hope and pledge that

regardless of the political consequences, whether it helps or hurts the

administration of which I am a part, we will fix dates for the release

of all important data relating to the matters within my sphere of

authority and we will not deviate from that and we will give the

American public all of the facts that bear on these issues.

That is a firm conviction of mine. I am sure Mr. Mitchell shared

it. I do not know what we will do about leaks in Washington.

Those things are part of what we must live with, but within my

power and within my authority we are going to give the facts and

let the chips fall where they may.

I do not know how we will get solutions if the facts are not known.

Senator RANDOLPH. Mr. Chairman, the statement of Mr. Goldberg

further reaffirms my feeling personally and officially that we shall be

well served by the new Secretary of Labor.

I believe he will bring to this position the measure of creative

ability which we are going to need.

It will be coupled, I am sure, with a substantial amount of courage

and I wish for him the very best in his service for the citizenry of

this land.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Dirksen?

Senator DIRKSEN. Mr. Goldberg, I apologize. I had another nomination hearing upstairs. It was of considerable interest, as you

might know. It was the Senate Judiciary Committee.

I am glad to see you and I think I ought to say for the record that

we have been friends for something more than 20 years. It could

have been 25 years.

I have always admired your competence, your legal skill, your integrity, and your candor. I am pretty sure that there will be at times,

there might be a good many times, when we will not agree on policy

because we have not in the past, but that has never altered or impaired

in the slightest degree the felicitous friendship we have so long enjoyed.

I am confident that the durable friendship will continue.

I saw a rather interesting observation the other day with respect

to a line of questions that are often asked about conflict of interest
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 15

and then there was a statement that in the case of a conflict of interest

where it involved only the ownership of stocks, bonds, other things,

one could easily divest himself because it was a physical divestment,

but they raised a further question as to one who had been so long

identified with a given movement like the labor movement, whether

that had become a sort of built-in fixture, as it were, and whether

one could impartially administer the job for which he was nominated.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Senator Dirksen, may I say to you, to reciprocate

what you have just said, we have been friends for 25 years—it is 25—

and I have always had great respect for your opinions, even when

they differed, because I believe fundamentally in the role of an

opposition.

Sometimes—at the moment we are in a majority, a slight one, but

I believe firmly in the role of an opposition. I would welcome opposition in the constructive sense that you have always manifested in

an opposition.

Now, it is difficult, in all candor to the committee, as I said earlier,

for a person who has been associated as I have been for 23 years

representing the labor movement to come here and say that at the

moment I have brainwashed myself and have departed from all of

the views and convictions which I had throughout the years. It would

not be honest if I said that to you.

I do, however, enter this post with the firm resolve to serve the

public interest in as objective a manner as any human being can do

that.

I have completely parted with all of my connections with the labor

movement. I do not intend to return, although there is nothing dishonorable in returning, after a period of government service.

I have gone to the extent of terminating an agreement in the nature

of a pension agreement with one of my important clients, which was

kind enough to give me by way of contract, although I was not an

employee and, therefore, could not qualify under the pension plan, a

deferred compensation agreement which would have amounted to a

substantial payment to me in the nature of a vested pension when I

reached the age of 60.

I have abrogated, on my own motion, that agreement and have

renounced it.

I do not recommend this as a procedure to anyone else, and I do

not want to sound more pure than anybody else, but the labor scene

is a sensitive scene and I have felt because of the nature of the labor

scene, the public was entitled to assurance from me that I would act

in the best interest of the public.

I hope to do so within the best of my ability and to give the administration, the President, the American people the most objective advice

that I can give to the President and the most objective leadership that

I can give to the Labor Department within the confines of human

failings.

Senator DIRKSEN. With your resolve and certainly your high assurance to the committee and to the country, knowing when you make

that resolve there goes with it an objective determination to carry

through with it, I was a little intrigued by the colloquy with Senator

Taft 11 years ago.

I went back and reread that testimony as to whether or not there is

or is not a moral right to be nonunion. I think you will remember it.
16 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

I wonder if in the intervening 11 years anything might have developed to change your views?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I remember that colloquy very well, Senator. I

feel this way about it:

The Congress of the United States has passed on that issue in the

enactment of legislation. I naturally have felt, and I still feel, I must

say, that it is a good thing for the country and for individuals to belong

to a union. I have felt and still feel that many people who complain

against the conduct of unions ought to get into unions and exercise

their democratic rights to reform the abuses about which they

complain.

I have felt and still feel that one of the disadvantages of our society

in the field of unionism—and it percolates our churches and other

organizations is the apathy on the part of people, and apathetic

members who do not exercise their rights, like in our political society,

are more responsible for abuses than anything else.

Congress has expressed a national policy in this area when it enacted

Taft-Hartley and part of that national policy is that there is freedom

of choice in this area.

I shall respect that policy so long as it remains the policy of the

Congress. I can do no other thing and take an oath to enforce the

laws of the United States.

Senator DIRKSEN. Now, Mr. Goldberg, here is a loaded question

and you do not have to answer it if you do not want to except on

further thought.

Last year we did entertain before this committee a proposal with

respect to secondary boycotts and I think you are familiar with it.

Mr. GOLDBERG. I am.

Senator DIRKSEN. I have some fixed views on it, of course, as you

do, but I was rather intrigued by the fact that we got nowhere with

an amendment to that proposal that would exempt defense plants.

Is that an organization posture? It would seem to me with all the

emphasis being placed on the national defense and security that one of

the least things we can do, if Congress undertook in its wisdom to

relent with respect to secondary boycotts, is to insist on a proviso that

directs itself completely to the security of the country. If that is one

that needs more study I am too glad to allow you to give it some

thought.

Mr. GOLDBERG. No, I want to respond to that, if I may, now.

As part of my testimony 11 years ago, I remember saying that

"boycott" is a word like spit at the end of a cigar, tip of a cigar, it is

a bad word. I said then, and I repeat now, that there are good boycotts and bad boycotts.

When I say good boycotts, no economic action is good in the sense

that you invite it. But on the other hand, there are necessary

economic actions that you take in a free society and in connection

with our Defense Establishment. I am very much mindful that we

must do better in the labor-management sphere in the defense area

than we have been doing.

I lay it on both—I cannot lay it on labor unions alone. There are

actions of management which could be improved in this area. One

of my principal objectives as Secretary of Labor will be to improve

this and to minimize the conflicts which exist in our Defense Establish-
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 17

ment. We cannot afford to curtail or hurt our national defense in

this area.

Now we may have to revise our laws. I do not know, and in this

sense, I would want to make a study. But more important than the

law, and this is why I answered Senator Goldwater as I did earlier

when he talked to me about the discrimination area. More important

than the law is the consensus, education, community of opinion,

effort within existing laws to minimize these conflicts. But in the

boycott area as in the discrimination area, if we are not able to do this

through these devices, then it is inevitable that there will be laws

which all fairminded men will necessarily support.

Senator DIRKSEN. It is fair and reasonable to assume, not entirely,

the "platform of hope" as I call it, which was adopted in Los Angeles—

and, incidentally, that comes from Emerson, you know. We were

referred to as the party of memory: our loyal opposition was referred

to as the party of hope.

Is it fair to assume that this concern is something of a guideline

for the policies that you will try to articulate as Secretary of Labor?

Mr. GOLDBERG. The platform of the Democratic Party is one that

I subscribed to as an alternate delegate I never got a chance to vote

on it. My principal delegate was in good health and did not give me

the chance. It is one to which as a Democrat I subscribe.

It represents the goals of a political party of which I am a member.

The priorities of that platform will have to be determined by the

President.

I hope to gain strength and inspiration from that platform and,

by the way, from the Republican platform, too.

I have found by rereading both platforms that in a couple of areas

there were some omissions in the Democratic platform that were filled

in the Republican platform. I think I would say to that I believe in

the goals of the platform plus the amendments I have found in the

Republican platform, but I have a chief who will determine the

priorities in this area and I am quite sure that neither platform will be

enacted in its entirety in this session of the Congress.

Senator DIRKSEN. Mr. Goldberg, I raised the question for only one

purpose. We have had months and months of hearings in the whole field of administered prices. I think you and your organization both

are quite familiar with it, and did testify?

Mr. GOLDBERG, Yes, sir.

Senator DIRKSEN. In the platform was the provision to this effect: An action to restrain administered price increases in industries where economic power rests in the hands of a few.

What we had in mind in these hearings at the time was the auto- mobile industry and kindred industries where you do not have too

many, but the fabricators use a large percentage of either the raw or end use product.

Now as I read that, there is inherent there a compulsion.

The question is: Is it intended that a vehicle will be set up which in the case of an industry of that kind will be summoned here to appear before either your Department or some other agency and asked to testify and if they do not come, I presume they will be subpenaed.

It took me 30 minutes to get the answer out of Mr. Reuther on that occasion because he did not like to say you have to make them, but I said: "Suppose the person did not want to come?"
18 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

"Well," he said, "you will have to make him come." Of course,

that is compulsion. That would involve control under a peculiar

circumstance. Now let us go one step further and see.

"A fair share of the gains from increasing productivity, "which, as

you know, has been much discussed: "in many industries should be

passed on to the consumer through price reductions."

Now up to this time our problem in the field of productivity has

been how much of a productivity gain goes to labor through collective

bargaining.

Now when you add the consumer who must resolve that issue, it

would appear that that will probably land in your Department.

The question is: Can you avoid compulsion in order to ascertain

what the productivity gain is and then by artificial formula or otherwise say so much to the consumer, so much to labor, and so much to

management?

That is a rather intriguing pledge in this platform. It has baffled

me a good deal.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Senator, you will recall, and again, as I said earlier,

I cannot honestly say that the convictions which I held as a private

citizen I have lost.

I appeared before your committee in opposition to the proposals

made in this area. I appeared before your committee and I said that

I thought it was impossible to enter upon this type of price control

without having wage controls and without having regulation of the

economy.

My views there are a matter of record.

Now, again, I say I am part of an administration. I expect to

advise the President to the best of my ability in these matters in which

my Department has an interest and he will have to make the policies

for the administration after he gets advice and I will have obligations

as a loyal member of the administration to support his policies and

will do so. But I have not changed my views on this subject and they

are my views.

Senator DIRKSEN. I think I have only one other question now.

I know Senator Javits has an abiding interest, as I have, in the

impact of imported goods on the American market which when

spelled out, of course, have to be spelled out also in terms of lost jobs

to American working men.

Now the platform does take cognizance of the problem and it

makes suggestions about subsidizing or providing zones or retraining

adjustment programs for the American industries that might be

damaged or substantially affected.

Then it goes a little bit further and speaks about seeking higher

standards abroad through international agreements.

In other words, to get them to raise their wage rates so that the

disparity in the cost of the product is not too great.

Now, how do you achieve that without some element of compulsion

in it?

Mr. GOLDBERG. Senator Dirksen I think that foreign competition

is becoming a problem in the United States. I think in some areas

it has been exaggerated.

In some areas it is a stern reality. Very frankly, again I do not

want to rehash old controversies, I think it was exaggerated in the

steel dispute last year, when the steel industry published an advertise-
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 19

,ment showing a Russian worker and saying he was taking a job away

from the American worker.

No Russian steel has ever been sent to the United States. On the

other hand I must with equal frankness say that some of the union

ads were also exaggerated.

Nevertheless, I am aware that there are other areas where foreign

competition is very pressing.

I think we in both parties recognize that it is necessary to deal with

this problem in a constructive way. One of the important ways of

dealing with this problem is to raise standards abroad.

I have participated in international conferences where this has

been a great objective. I think we must strengthen our work at the

ILO where this is one of the objectives. I think this is good for us

and more important it is good for the countries of the world independent of us. We want to play our role in raising the wage standards

of other countries in the world so that they can follow the path that

we found was the right path in the United States, that domestic

prosperity is wound up with the improvement in living standards.

I think this is an important ingredient in this important area.

Senator DIRKSEN. I understand that the Amalgamated Clothing

Workers have generated a sort of boycott of their own on certain

textiles coming from abroad.

I do not know if that is exactly true, or not, but if that were true,

if that were the case, obviously if that kind of a movement got

started in the country, you would have a real competition.

And it only adds importance to this whole question of impact of

foreign goods on the American market.

Now I have probably only one other question. There are in the

country today some independent unions. They go by different

names. I know several. The benevolent and protective association

of a given plant.

Now, of course, the CIO and AFL have always looked with disfavor

upon those organizations. This might be answered by me as a matter

of fact, rather than by you, but as a part of the record can those

unions expect completely impartial treatment in the Department in

this whole labor picture?

Mr. GOLDBERG. My obligation when I become Secretary of Labor

is to protect the interests of all elements of our society and in particular to protect the interests of wage earners in the United States.

This means all wage earners, organized, or unorganized, organized

into whatever form of organization wage earners voluntarily elect to

assume for themselves.

It means that I protect them regardless of their race or their color

or creed insofar as my statutory responsibilities give me that power.

That I intend to do.

Senator DIRKSEN. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Smith?

Senator SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I would like to apologize for being

late. I was presenting another Cabinet-designate to another committee.

I liked Mr. Goldberg's answer to Senator Javits' question regarding

the conditions now, that we are not at war, but management and

labor have a greater responsibility in these times than ever before.
•

20 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

Now I also liked your answer to the question of Senator Randolph

in saying that you would make available as soon as possible the news

to the American public, whether it is good or bad.

I feel very strongly that they are certainly entitled to this information.

I think President-elect Kennedy has made a very fine choice and

I congratulate Mr. Goldberg for his willingness to serve this country

in this very important post.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Prouty, do you have any questions?

Senator PROUTY. Mr. Goldberg, first, I would like to commend you

for your initial statement. I think that, if you adhere to the philosophy outlined there, you will render a great service to the United

States, both management and labor.

I think you have the feeling that it is in the enlightened self-interest

of both labor and management to resolve some of the conflicts that

seem to exist at certain times and which are damaging to the public

welfare.

Senator Randolph raised a question about unemployment. I have

introduced a bill, S. 5, which provides among other things that when

1 percent of the covered labor force has exhausted their benefits and.

5 percent of the covered benefit force are unemployed, that the Federal Government will step into the picture and extend payments for

an additional period.

I am not asking you to comment on that particular legislation, but

do you think that during periods of high levels of unemploymAnt

legislation of that general character is necessary.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Senator Prouty, we found, I believe it was in

1958, that when we went through a protracted period of recession,

that the States which have great financial problems and employers

who pay a tax and have great financial problems are unable to cope

with the extent of unemployment and that help is needed, Federal

help is needed.

I would strongly agree with you, without going into the details of

what would be the appropriate type of legislation, that this is vitally

necessary at the present time.

Senator PROUTY. I hope you will give some thought to my proposal.

Mr. GOLDBERG. I certainly shall.

Senator PROUTY. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Pell, do you have any questions?

Senator PELL. Mr. Chairman, I also would like to apologize for

being late, to you and to Mr. Goldberg. I have no questions at this

time except to say that coming from a State where we have one of

the highest rates of unemployment of any region in the United States,

we are particularly glad to see such a fine appointee.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Goldwater, I believe you have some

further questions?

Senator GOLDWATER. Just a few, Mr. Chairman.

I imagine the answer to this question will be pretty much the same

as the answer to the last one I put to you before I left, but I just want

to get it on the record.

Again referring to the Democratic platform they say: "We will

repeal limitations on the right to strike, to picket peacefully," what

are the limitations on the right to picket peacefully under existing

Federal law which your administration will favor repealing?
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 21

Mr. GOLDBERG. I think, Senator, here, too, Congress just enacted

a law in this area and it would be my view—there were some TaftHartley amendments to the Landrum-Griffin Act when it was

passed—it would be my view that I would want to study this a little

carefully and consult, and consult with you and the House committee

about some suggestions, and, of course, again, I want to emphasize

I am part of the administration and that our President might have

ideas in this area.

If I can interpret what the platform means—as a mere alternate

delegate you are not admitted to the lofty precepts of the platform

committee—what I believe was meant is the question of whether or

not free speech rights have been curtailed in this area.

I am not saying they have and I am not saying they have not.

I am sure the Congress will be very alert to protect this constitutional right and I would want to study it and review it with this

committee and the House committee at the appropriate time.

Senator GOLDWATER. You would be referring specifically to those

portions of the Landrum-Griffin amendment that pertain to peaceful

picketing, would you not?

Mr. GOLDBERG. That is correct.

Also, there was one bill which was offered in the Congress of the

United States by the administration which dealt, for example, with

situs picketing. This is one of the areas where I would want to appear

before you and appear before the House committee and discuss what

appropriate relief should be accorded in this area.

Senator GOLDWATER. You are referring to the secondary boycott

desires of the building trades?

Mr. GOLDBERG. The decision that they got under the law in the

Denver case which has been the subject of consideration by this

committee.

Senator GOLDWATER. Will you come before this committee and

recommend that legislation be enacted that would reverse the Denver

decision?

Mr. GOLDBERG. After I consult with my Chief and determine what

the policy of the administration is.

Senator GOLDWATER. Well, your Chief introduced the bill last year.

Would you think the chances are fairly good that he will have it

reintroduced and if he does, would you appear before us recommending

that it be reversed?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I have learned that one of the counsels of wisdom

in my new task is not to speak for the President.

However, I will say to you that on any matter of labor legislation

that falls within the committee and within my jurisdiction, I hope

to have the privilege of appearing before you in person and discussing

it.

Senator GOLDWATER. Do you feel that this decision should be

reversed?

Mr. GOLDBERG. Personally?

Senator GOLDWATER. Yes.

Mr. GOLDBERG. I have indicated in the past that I thought it

should be.

Senator GOLDWATER. Now, I have the names of six prospective

appointees to the top positions in the Department of Labor. Mr.

Wirtz for Under Secretary; Mr. Holleman for Assistant Secretary;
22 NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG

Mr. Reynolds for Assistant Secretary; Mr. Weaver for special assistant to the Secretary; and two assistants to the Secretary, Mr. Donohue

as Solicitor and Miss Peterson, head of the Women's Bureau.

Could you tell me under the jurisdiction of which of these assistants

will the recently established Bureau of Labor-Management reports

be put?

Mr. GOLDBERG. Senator, these appointments were made by the

President-elect without designation of assignment as to particular

areas in the Department.

The statute creating these offices does not give titles or assignments

to these posts.

Mr. Mitchell made some assignments as a matter of administrative

convenience. He assigned the Under Secretary to a roving mission

in the Department and then particular assignments to one or two

areas.

Then one Assistant Secretary was assigned to some area including

labor-management reporting.

I have felt that I ought to, in conjunction with my new colleagues,

review this. I have felt that I ought to get the recommendation of

the Bureau of the Budget as to whether this type of assignment that

Secretary Mitchell made has worked out.

By the way, his administration was very good in this area and I

would be disposed to take counsel with him as I have been doing, and

will do again before he leaves office; and after that is over, to make

assignments that will best carry out the statutory functions of the

Department.

At the moment I have not thought of allocating any particular

assignments in this area until I am better informed as to how the

assignments have worked out and get the advice of the Bureau of

the Budget and make a determination at that time.

Senator GOLDWATER. The reason I asked that question is that,

first, I want to find out if you had made any decision in this field.

Mr. GOLDBERG. I have not.

Senator GOLDWATER. As you know, this is a new field and it can

be a very ticklish field. It is a very important one.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes, sir.

Senator GOLDWATER. In reciting these facts I intend no reflection

on any of these individuals because I do not know them. I have high

respect for them because they have been selected for a high post. Mr.

Holloman, as I understand it, is the head of the Texas AFL—CIO.

Mr. GOLDBERG. That is right.

Senator GOLDWATER. Mr. Weaver is assistant to Mr. James Carey,

head of the International Union of Electrical Workers, Mr. Donohue

is the research director of the Plumbers Union, and Miss Peterson, I

believe, is legislative representative of the Industrial Union Department of the AFL—CIO.

Now, if you pick one of these, do you feel that they can do an impartial job in view of their labor union background, where they are

dealing equally with management and with labor?

Mr. GOLDBERG. I am sure you would want me to say that as part

of this team I also picked Mr. Reynolds who is a business executive

and I also picked- Mr. Wirtz who is a professor of law and has been an

arbitrator between labor and management.
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 23

I feel this way about it: I would not have recommended to the

President, and I am sure the President would not have appointed,

anyone who, No. 1, did not completely sever his relationship with

his prior connection.

No. 2, did not wholeheartedly devote himself to the public interest.

I would feel this way: first of all, I am the Secretary of Labor if I

am confirmed, and I have stated to this committee without any reservation at all that the Labor-Management Relations Act is going to

be fully enforced.

I have said that, and I will repeat it, and it will be fully enforced..

I will expect, and I am sure that my colleagues will share that conviction. I will make assignments to the various operations of the

Bureau of the Department in the interest of getting effective, decent,

honest, commonsense enforcement in this area.

I will expect, by the way, if I follow my present inclination—I do

not want to say it is a final one because I have not completed my

study—I would expect, for example, that Mr. Wirtz, Under Secretary,

who is a public figure, and Mr. Reynolds, the Assistant Secretary,

who comes on with a lousiness background, will have as equal a voice

in the operations of this Department as any other person in the

Department.

Also, the man who has been appointed by Secretary Mitchell, Mr.

Holcombe, the Commissioner I have asked to continue on his job.

He is doing a good job and he is doing it fairly, and I would expect

him to continue on his job.

That is the very best answer, Senator, that I can give at the

moment, until I complete the operation of the Department.

I would say one thing: The operation of that Department, or any

other department, is not going to be conducted on the basis that there

is a vested interest on part of the labor movement in that Department, but it will be conducted objectively, fairly, in every sense.

Senator GOLDWATER. I might say, Mr. Goldberg, I have every

confidence that that is going to be so. But you cannot blame people

for wondering, not about you, because your attitude, honesty, and

intentions are well known, nor do I think anybody questions the

honesty or attitude of anyone else whom I may have mentioned, but

because the function of the Labor Department is to protect and

further the welfare of wage earners just as the Commerce Department

is, as it should be, interested in business.

But filling the top positions, as Mr. Kennedy has, with people from

labor, naturally causes some concern, mostly because of the honesty

that you have displayed in saying that you cannot just shut out something that you have been associated with since you were 12 years old

you cannot become "brainwashed" overnight.

Frankly, I hope that you never become "brainwashed." Your

brain is pretty good the way it is.

But Mr. Carey said in 1954 on this question, when we had the

hearings on the nomination of Albert Cummings Beeson, which you

might remember:

Mr. CAREY. I set forth a hypothetical case that if a labor leader ha(,.. -

of practical experience in the field of labor-management relationshi

,

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not, coming fresh from that experience, present an impartial poin Pe

, €..4:, \s,lew ,04,20 as a1, ,

member of an agency like the National Labor Relations Board. 

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24 NOMINATION OF ARTHITR J. GOLDBERG

asked in the course of the testimony if I could be a fair-minded member of a

National Labor Relations Board with 21 years of experience as a national officer

of a labor union, my answer must, of necessity, be no.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Mr. Mitchell disproves that assertion, with due

respect to my friend, Mr. Carey. Mr. Mitchell came to the Department of Labor with a background of being the industrial relations

director for management of several important concerns. He has administered that Department fairly.

Businessmen did not get an untoward advantage. The labor people

were treated fairly. I will do everything in my power to see to it that

I and my appointees will operate in the same spirit.

Senator GOLDWATER. Mr. Chairman, I have no other questions.

I have every confidence in Mr. Goldberg's ability and in his intentions.

I look forward as a member of this committee and a Member of Congress to working with him.

I have to presume that we will find ourselves in opposition now and

then, but as I said at the outset, it will be gentlemanly opposition and

friendly opposition, hoping to get to the same end; namely, the betterment of this country.

I am very happy to cast my vote for Mr. Goldberg if you want any

nominations, and if you Democrats have no pride of authorship, I

will be very happy to so move.

The CHAIRMAN. When we go into executive session, we will give

you an opportunity to make the motion.

Senator GOLDWATER. There is no point doing it in executive session

if it does not get out.

The CHAIRMAN. What we will do, then, if there is no objection, is

to waive the rules, if you wish to make the motion.

Senator GOLDWATER. I move that the Labor Committee approve

the appointment of Mr. Goldberg to be Secretary of Labor.

Senator MCNAMARA. I second the motion.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any discussion of the motion?

If not, all in favor of the motion say "aye."

Opposed, "no."

There are no nays and the motion of Senator Goldwater that Mr.

Goldberg be confirmed as Secretary of Labor is passed.

Mr. Goldberg, we want to thank you for your very frank and very

clear and very intelligent statements this morning and the very able

presentation you have made.

The statement proves that the pudding is in the eating.

You have sat here and heard this committee unanimously approve

your confirmation.

We shall look forward with much pleasure to having you with us

much in the future. We thank you very, very much.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Thank you, Mr. Chairgian.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Yarborough, do you have any questions

or comments you wish to make?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Chairman, I passed in the hope we

might fidish this session this morning. I did plan to discuss the

question of automation and education as a substitute. I will forgo

that.

I want to say, during my services in the Senate, I have heard no

witness who Appeared for confirmation for any appointive office before
NOMINATION OF ARTHUR J. GOLDBERG 25

any committee who has shown a more thorough knowledge of this

subject than the witness this morning, nor have I heard anyone who

showed more imagination for the future. It is a pleasure to vote for

his confirmation.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Goldberg.

Mr. GOLDBERG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now stand in recess.

(Thereupon, at 12:05 p.m., the committee was recessed, to reconvene subject to call of the chairman.)

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