```

[Senate Hearing 114-500]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

                                                       S. Hrg. 114-500

                          PENDING LEGISLATION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
                   PUBLIC LANDS, FORESTS, AND MINING

                                 OF THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

          S. 1167                          S. 2018
 
          S. 1423                          S. 2223
 
          S. 1510                          S. 2379
 
          S. 1699                          S. 2383
 
          S. 1777
 

                               ----------                              

                             APRIL 21, 2016

                               ----------                              

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                       Printed for the use of the
               Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

         Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov

                                                        S. Hrg. 114-500

                          PENDING LEGISLATION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                            SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
                   PUBLIC LANDS, FORESTS, AND MINING

                                 OF THE

                              COMMITTEE ON
                      ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
                          UNITED STATES SENATE

                    ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

          S. 1167                          S. 2018
 
          S. 1423                          S. 2223
 
          S. 1510                          S. 2379
 
          S. 1699                          S. 2383
 
          S. 1777
 

                               __________

                             APRIL 21, 2016

                               __________

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

                       Printed for the use of the
               Committee on Energy and Natural Resources

         Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov
         
                                   ______

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21-976                         WASHINGTON : 2018 
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               COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

                    LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman
JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming               MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                RON WYDEN, Oregon
MIKE LEE, Utah                       BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona                  DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
STEVE DAINES, Montana                AL FRANKEN, Minnesota
BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana              JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
CORY GARDNER, Colorado               MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
ROB PORTMAN, Ohio                    MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota            ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee           ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia
                                 ------                                

           Subcommittee on Public Lands, Forests, and Mining

                        JOHN BARRASSO, Chairman
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO                 RON WYDEN
JAMES E. RISCH                       DEBBIE STABENOW
MIKE LEE                             AL FRANKEN
STEVE DAINES                         JOE MANCHIN III
BILL CASSIDY                         MARTIN HEINRICH
CORY GARDNER                         MAZIE K. HIRONO
JOHN HOEVEN                          ELIZABETH WARREN
JEFF FLAKE
LAMAR ALEXANDER
                      Colin Hayes, Staff Director
                Patrick J. McCormick III, Chief Counsel
  Lucy Murfitt, Senior Counsel and Public Lands and Natural Resources 
                                Director
           Angela Becker-Dippmann, Democratic Staff Director
                Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel
                David Brooks, Democratic General Counsel
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Barrasso, Hon. John, Subcommittee Chairman and a U.S. Senator 
  from Wyoming...................................................     1
Wyden, Hon. Ron, Subcommittee Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator 
  from Oregon....................................................     2
Lee, Hon. Mike, a U.S. Senator from Utah.........................     3
Flake, Hon. Jeff, a U.S. Senator from Arizona....................     4
Risch, Hon. James E., a U.S. Senator from Idaho..................     4

                               WITNESSES

Casamassa, Glenn, Associate Deputy Chief, National Forest System, 
  U.S. Forest Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture............     8
Pool, Mike, Acting Deputy Director for Operations, Bureau of Land 
  Management, U.S. Department of the Interior....................    25
Whelan, Major General Martin, Director of Future Operations, 
  Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations, Headquarters, U.S. Air 
  Force; accompanied by Miller, Jennifer, Deputy Assistant 
  Secretary for Installations, U.S. Air Force....................    55

          ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

Alaska Bible College:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    84
Alderson, George and Frances:
    Letter for the Record........................................    86
Alexander, Alice:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    87
American Forest Resource Council:
    Letter for the Record regarding S. 1510......................    88
    Letter for the Record regarding S. 1699......................    91
American Rivers:
    Letter for the Record regarding S. 1423......................    94
    Letter for the Record regarding S. 1510......................    96
    Letter for the Record regarding S. 1699......................    98
Bailey, Marcia:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   100
Baker, Dr. Norman:
    Letter for the Record........................................   101
Barrasso, Hon. John:
    Opening Statement............................................     1
Bilodeau, Katheryn (and Jeremiah Busch):
    Letter for the Record........................................   102
Blackshear, Sherry and Ronald:
    Letter for the Record........................................   106
Bowen, Betsy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   107
Boxer, Hon. Barbara:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    64
Brandt, Vicky:
    Letter for the Record........................................   108
Brownley, Hon. Julia, et al.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   111
Brumlik, Mr. & Mrs. Daniel:
    Letter for the Record........................................   109
Brunstad, Harold:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   110
Capps, Hon. Lois, et al.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   111
Casamassa, Glenn:
    Opening Statement............................................     8
    Written Testimony............................................    10
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................    74
Cascadia Wildlands:
    Letter for the Record........................................   113
Chilcoat, Rose:
    Letter for the Record........................................   115
Clark/Gamble, Carolyn and Rick:
    Letter for the Record........................................   118
Combs, Tom and Kristin:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   119
Crapo, Hon. Mike:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   120
Crawford, Dennis:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   122
Curtis, Richard:
    Letter for the Record........................................   123
DeVane, Connor:
    Letter for the Record........................................   125
Dobkevich, Judith:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   126
Dubrosky, Doug:
    Letter for the Record........................................   127
Durr, Greg:
    Letter for the Record........................................   128
Durr, Rebecca:
    Letter for the Record........................................   129
Ecotrust Forest Management:
    Letter for the Record........................................   130
Farr, Hon. Sam, et al.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   111
Feltham, Wendy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   132
Flake, Hon. Jeff:
    Opening Statement............................................     4
Friends of the Kalmiopsis and Soda Mountain Wilderness Council:
    Letter for the Record........................................   133
Gershten, Dr. Mitchell:
    Letter for the Record........................................   137
Giedt, Jean:
    Letter for the Record........................................   138
Graber, Michael:
    Letter for the Record........................................   139
Hansen, Bev:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   140
Havrilla, Robert:
    Letter for the Record........................................   141
Hayden, Anne:
    Letter for the Record........................................   142
Hazelleaf, Tom:
    Letter for the Record........................................   143
Hill, Paul and Ann:
    Letter for the Record........................................   144
Hilscher, Hilary (and Neil Johannsen):
    Letter for the Record........................................   145
Huesemann, Drs. Michael and Joyce:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   146
Janzen, Gayle:
    Letter for the Record........................................   148
Jayne, Jerry:
    Letter for the Record........................................   150
Jeffries, Tim:
    Letter for the Record........................................   151
Johnson, Reid:
    Letter for the Record........................................   152
Johnson, Steven:
    Letter for the Record........................................   153
Kalmiopsis Audubon Society:
    Letter for the Record........................................   154
Klamath-Siskiyou Wildlands Center:
    Letter for the Record........................................   156
Klein, Nora:
    Letter for the Record........................................   157
Kloefkorn, Walter:
    Letter for the Record........................................   158
Kotler, Danielia:
    Letter for the Record........................................   159
Krafchuk, Bonnie:
    Letter for the Record........................................   160
Kring, Juli:
    Letter for the Record........................................   161
Kuntz, Laurie:
    Letter for the Record........................................   162
Lambeth, Larry:
    Letter for the Record........................................   163
Langton, Kimber:
    Letter for the Record........................................   164
Larkin, Beau:
    Letter for the Record........................................   165
Lasley, Louise:
    Letter for the Record........................................   166
Lee, Hon. Mike:
    Opening Statement............................................     3
Lipschik, Matthew:
    Letter for the Record........................................   167
Lish, Christopher:
    Letter for the Record........................................   168
Liss, Tonia:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   169
Loeschen, Doris:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   170
Magliola, Lawrence:
    Letter for the Record........................................   171
Mantooth, Roberta and James:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   172
McCarthy, Michael:
    Letter for the Record........................................   173
McKeon, Renae:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   175
McPhee, Joe:
    Letter for the Record........................................   176
Meeks, Mark:
    Letter for the Record........................................   177
Menard, Jana:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   178
Messmer, Jim:
    Letter for the Record........................................   179
Moser, Rich:
    Letter for the Record........................................   180
Mueller, Tara:
    Letter for the Record........................................   181
Murray, Hon. Patty:
    Statement for the Record.....................................    62
Nagel, Clinton:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   182
National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior:
    Statement for the Record regarding S. 1510...................    53
Neumann, David:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   184
North Olympic Timber Action Committee:
    Letter for the Record........................................   186
Null, Ciry:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   190
Oakes, Elizabeth:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   191
Oliver, Judith:
    Letter for the Record........................................   192
Olson, Dr. Sherry:
    Letter for the Record........................................   193
Olympic Peninsula Audubon Society:
    Letter for the Record........................................   194
Oregon Wild, et al.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   196
Orzechowski, Larry:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   198
Penry, Marlene:
    Letter for the Record........................................   199
(The) Pew Charitable Trusts:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   200
Pool, Mike:
    Opening Statement............................................    25
    Written Testimony............................................    27
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................    77
Port of Port Angeles, Washington:
    Letter for the Record........................................   203
Potter, Dave and Kirsten:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   205
Probst, Richard and Kelly:
    Letter for the Record........................................   206
Rankin, Michael:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   207
Reed, Mary:
    Letter for the Record........................................   248
Risch, Hon. James E.:
    Opening Statement............................................     4
    Written Statement for the Record regarding S. 1167...........     5
    Written Statement for the Record regarding S. 1777...........     6
Rogue River Coalition:
    Letter for the Record........................................   249
Rogue Riverkeeper:
    Letter for the Record........................................   251
Roney, Scott:
    Letter for the Record........................................   252
Ross, B. Elliot:
    Letter for the Record........................................   253
Rothschild, Hon. Jonathan:
    Letter for the Record........................................   254
Russell, Alex:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   255
Serra, Dawn:
    Letter for the Record........................................   256
Shaw, Nancy:
    Letter for the Record........................................   257
Shaw, William:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   258
Sierra Club:
    Letter for the Record........................................   259
Smith, Charles:
    Letter for the Record........................................   261
Smith, Vicki:
    Letter for the Record........................................   262
Strahan, Dave:
    Letter for the Record........................................   263
Sutherland, Hugh:
    Letter for the Record........................................   265
Temple, Ray (and Stephanie Hazen):
    Statement for the Record.....................................   266
Thomas, Sally:
    Letter for the Record........................................   267
Trout Unlimited:
    Letter for the Record regarding S. 1423......................   268
    Letter for the Record regarding S. 1699......................   270
Twight-Alexander, Susanne:
    Letter for the Record........................................   272
Utah School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   273
Uyenishi, Steve:
    Letter for the Record........................................   279
Wagner-Starley, Christie:
    Letter for the Record........................................   280
Whelan, Major General Martin:
    Opening Statement............................................    55
    Written Testimony............................................    57
    Responses to Questions for the Record........................    81
Wiese, Deborah (and Ruth Haasl):
    Letter for the Record........................................   282
Wilcox, Tom:
    Letter for the Record........................................   283
Wild Rogue Outfitters Association:
    Letter for the Record........................................   285
(The) Wilderness Society:
    Letter for the Record........................................   286
Wilderness Watch and Friends of the Clearwater:
    Letter for the Record regarding S. 1167......................   293
    Letter for the Record regarding S. 1777......................   296
Wilderness Watch, et al.:
    Letter for the Record........................................   303
Wolper, Steven:
    Letter for the Record........................................   307
Wyden, Hon. Ron:
    Opening Statement............................................     2
Yoder, Chris:
    Statement for the Record.....................................   308

                               __________
                               
                               
This official record contains a random selection of statements for the 
record submitted for this hearing. A complete record of all statements 
submitted for the record is on file with the Senate Energy Committee.

The text for each of the bills addressed at this hearing can be found 
on the committee's website at: http://www.energy.senate.gov/public/
index.cfm/hearings-and-business-meetings? ID=A9500EE4-7F6A-400F-8C58-
1F2C5A3CFF93.

 
                          PENDING LEGISLATION

                              ----------                              

                        THURSDAY, APRIL 21, 2016

                               U.S. Senate,
  Subcommittee on Public Lands, Forests and Mining,
                 Committee on Energy and Natural Resources,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:34 p.m. in 
Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John 
Barrasso, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding.

           OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO, 
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING

    Senator Barrasso. The Subcommittee will come to order.
    The purpose of today's hearing is to receive testimony on 
nine bills pending before this Subcommittee.
    Three of these bills designate hundreds of thousands of 
acres of new wilderness and add hundreds of miles of river 
segments to the National Wild and Scenic Rivers System. These 
include: S. 1423, the Central Coast Heritage Protection Act, 
sponsored by Senator Boxer; S. 1510, the Wild Olympic 
Wilderness and Wild and Scenic Rivers Act, sponsored by Senator 
Murray; and S. 1699, the Oregon Wildlands Act, sponsored by 
Senator Wyden.
    Already 110 million acres of lands have been added to the 
wilderness system. Additionally, tens of millions of acres are 
protected as ``roadless'' by the Forest Service and the Bureau 
of Land Management (BLM). In my view we must take a more 
balanced approach between adding lands to the wilderness system 
and Congress releasing lands. The agency currently manages 
wilderness study areas to be managed in accordance with the 
land management plans.
    These bills also propose to designate thousands of acres of 
potential wilderness. Potential wilderness gives the agency 
authority to remove all uses prohibited by the Wilderness Act 
on multiple use lands and provides the agency with 
discretionary authority at some future date to convert 
potential wilderness to designated wilderness without needing 
any additional authority or approval from Congress. This is 
troubling to me as it could have far reaching impacts for the 
management of our forests and our public lands.
    Today we also have two Idaho bills on the agenda that 
revisit past wilderness and wild and scenic river designations. 
Senator Crapo's bill, S. 1167, the Owyhee Wilderness Areas 
Boundary Modifications Act, would authorize the continued use 
of motorized vehicles to herd livestock in certain wilderness 
areas. Senator Risch's bill, S. 1777, would amend the Wild and 
Scenic Rivers Act to maintain or replace certain facilities and 
structures at Smith Gulch. In these two cases Congress needs to 
provide further direction to the agencies so we can actually 
carry out the legislative intent.
    The remaining four bills on the agenda include: S. 2018, to 
convey a federal reversionary interest in Glennallen, Alaska, 
sponsored by Chairman Murkowski; S. 2223, to transfer 
administrative jurisdiction over certain BLM land to the VA for 
inclusion in the Black Hills National Cemetery, sponsored by 
Senator Thune; S. 2379, to convey a federal reversionary 
interest to the City of Tucson, sponsored by Senator Flake; and 
S. 2383, to withdraw certain BLM outside the Utah Test and 
Training Range (UTTR) to facilitate and enhance weapons testing 
and pilot training at the Air Force, sponsored by Senator Hatch 
and Senator Lee.
    So I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here 
today.
    I would now like to turn to Senator Wyden for any opening 
remarks or comments he would like to add.

     STATEMENT OF HON. RON WYDEN, U.S. SENATOR FROM OREGON

    Senator Wyden. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. We are 
going to look at important public lands bills today, and I 
especially appreciate the inclusion of my Oregon Wildlands 
bill. There are important challenges here, and I am just going 
to touch on a few.
    One is the Frank Moore Wild Steelhead Sanctuary Act, which 
is a bill to honor a World War II hero and conservationist in 
Oregon. I look forward to working with my colleagues on this 
Committee to find a way to honor his legacy.
    I also have two Oregon tribal bills, the Coos and the Cow 
Creek bills. Helping these tribes has been important to me 
since I was Chair of this full Committee, because they provide 
these tribes with the land base that they deserve. I appreciate 
the continued efforts of the Chair and the Ranking Member of 
the Committee and their staffs on helping me get these bills 
over the finish line.
    With respect to my bill on the agenda today, the Oregon 
Wildlands Act is a compilation of several wilderness and wild 
and scenic provisions that were included in my O&C bill. So 
this is actually the second time these bills have been heard in 
this Committee, because the Committee held a hearing on the O&C 
bill last July.
    I know the Committee has received many letters of support 
for the legislation from groups across Oregon representing 
conservation, fish and wildlife, and sportsmen's interests. I 
also appreciate the continued support and commitment from the 
Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service to work with 
me on this important bill.
    The Oregon Wildlands Act designates hundreds of miles of 
rivers in Oregon as wild and scenic. It expands wilderness for 
some of Oregon's most treasured areas and protects over 100,000 
acres as National Recreation Areas.
    My state is a special place, and it has remarkable natural 
features and diverse landscapes that lend themselves to a 
variety of recreational pursuits. We essentially have it all. 
Climbing, hiking, bird watching, we have everything. That is 
why the bill is so important. The qualities that make Oregon's 
natural treasures unique are exactly the reasons for protecting 
them, and I want to make sure that our kids and our grandkids 
can enjoy them for years to come and continue to support the 
ecosystems and wildlife that depend on them.
    The Oregon Wildlands Act was a part of my O&C bill, and I 
am just going to take a quick minute to talk about that. Unlike 
other forestry proposals that are out there, and the recently 
released Bureau of Land Management Resource Management Plan, 
this legislation is different.
    My O&C bill would double the harvest compared to the 
average harvest over the last decade, and it would ensure 
lasting protections for Oregon's special places. With tough 
forestry and conservation issues, you always face the same 
challenge. I am looking down the dais and all of us, as 
Westerners in particular, understand what this is about. Not 
everybody is going to get what they asked for, and nobody is 
going to get everything they think they deserve. The question 
is in the West can you come up with a challenge so that all of 
the responsible parties get what they need? Looking down the 
row and to Senator Heinrich, I think all of us as Westerners 
have been through that, and that, in my view, sums up the 
challenge.
    Finally, I want to talk for a moment about Senator Crapo's 
Owyhee bill. I know the wilderness management issues are 
difficult in his state, just as they are for all of us as 
Westerners. Senator Crapo has worked very hard to bring diverse 
interest groups together to pass the Owyhee Wilderness bill in 
2009. And of course, again, as Westerners we know that is the 
way you go about this right.
    My understanding is the Bureau of Land Management recently 
changed its policies on grazing within these wilderness areas 
which the ranchers believe are inconsistent with what they 
agreed to in 2009. So I want to just state, in wrapping up, my 
commitment to work with Senator Crapo to thread the needle on 
this to find a solution that is consistent with the Wilderness 
Act and also with the grazing language that was included in the 
original Owyhee Wilderness bill.
    Again, I want to thank Chairman Barrasso for his help on 
including the Oregon Wildlands Act today and for our witnesses. 
I hope they will excuse my bad manners. The last plane for 
Oregon leaves in a little bit, so that is going to be my 
immediate challenge.
    I really appreciate you all being here, and we look forward 
especially to working with you on the Oregon Wildlands bill.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Wyden.
    We have some sponsors of initial legislation here with us. 
I think Senator Lee was the first to arrive if you would like 
to make any statement regarding your legislation?

       STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE LEE, U.S. SENATOR FROM UTAH

    Senator Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thanks 
to all of you for being here. This is an important issue to our 
state.
    We are grateful for the fact that you are willing to 
include S. 2383 in the hearing this afternoon. The Enhancement 
of the Utah Test and Training Range is an issue that the Utah 
delegation, both in the House of Representatives and here in 
the Senate, feel is great importance to our national security 
and the capabilities of the Air Force.
    As a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, I have 
had the opportunity this year to question Air Force leaders on 
the importance of readying our nation's test and training 
ranges for fifth generation weapons systems and technology.
    Lieutenant General John Raymond, the Deputy Chief of Staff 
for the Air Force Operations, told the Airline Subcommittee on 
March 8th that enhancing training is, ``something that is going 
to be absolutely critical for our readiness going forward,'' 
and that the Air Force will put nearly $1 billion in FY'17 to 
make sure that the ranges have the capabilities and the air 
space that they need to address these high end threats and to 
test the systems that we need.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Lee.
    Senator Flake, is there anything you would like to add 
about your legislation?

                 STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF FLAKE, 
                   U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA

    Senator Flake. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 
this being talked about today.
    This would simply provide for the unencumbering of title to 
non-federal land owned by the City of Tucson for purposes of 
economic development to buy a conveyance of the federal 
reversionary interest to the city.
    We know this was a deal that was done in 1989 and it was 
done with an equal land exchange at that time, but somehow BLM 
does not see it that way. The City of Tucson would simply like 
the full use of this land.
    This legislation would just complete the transaction that 
began in 1989.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Flake.
    Senator Risch.

                STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES RISCH, 
                    U.S. SENATOR FROM IDAHO

    Senator Risch. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    I have two pieces of legislation that I would like to speak 
to briefly.
    First of all, I have a lengthy statement on each one which 
I would ask unanimous consent to put in the record.
    Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
    [The information referred to follows:]
    
    
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    

    
    Senator Risch. S. 1177 is simply a bill that would allow 
for one of the lodges that is on the Salmon River to obtain 
permits in order to use certain motorized equipment. This is on 
private property and it was never the intention, I don't 
believe, of anyone to stop that. This would very clearly allow 
them to use the kinds of things that they need to maintain the 
things that are there, not necessarily to improve. As usual 
this is a government-made problem, and this will resolve it.
    Interestingly enough the local Forest Service people say 
well they don't have the authority to issue such a permit. The 
higher-ups say that they do have the authority and the 
testimony I am reading today from the Forest Service says, 
``The Department opposes Senate bill 1777 because it would 
create a negative precedent for other commercial recreation 
service providers on wild and scenic rivers across the nation. 
We hope to work with Senator Risch and Senator Crapo to find a 
solution that is mutually beneficial to their constituents and 
the Forest Service.''
    So I have got a real good solution. Issue the permits, then 
we really do not need this legislation. Again, this is very 
diminimus in the overall scheme of things. It was the intent 
always, when all of this was passed, that the private 
landholders could continue to operate they have traditionally 
been operating. I will be interested to hear the Forest Service 
position on that. Hopefully it is more than just in this, what 
I have in this prepared statement.
    Secondly, I am helping Senator Crapo on Senate bill 1167. 
Senate bill 1167 is another government-made problem. Senator 
Crapo worked very hard with the people. It was a collaborative 
sort of thing in order to get this particular wilderness put in 
place. What it did allow for is the people who were running 
cattle out there to continue running cattle and to do it the 
way they have always done it.
    Now for those of you who do not run cattle, I can tell you 
that every year we have to go out and gather the cattle. There 
are a couple of ways you do it. One is on a horse. One is on a 
four-wheeler. If you are down in Owyhee County, you want to be 
on a four-wheeler because you can cover about ten times the 
amount of ground on a four-wheeler that you can on a horse. 
It's always been allowed, but the BLM has modified its rules 
since the original bill was passed and they are now trying to 
prohibit four-wheelers on the ranchers that are operating down 
there.
    What this bill does is simply allow us, again, to go back 
with what was the understanding. Interestingly enough, this is 
supported by our flagship conservation group in Idaho, the 
Idaho Conservation League, Rivers United which is our flagship 
group when it comes to wild and scenic rivers, the Wilderness 
Society and the Pew Foundation. All these people know that this 
is what was intended.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I will yield back.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Risch.
    At this time, we will turn to our witnesses.
    At the end of the witness testimony we will begin a round 
of questions. The witnesses' full written testimony will be 
made part of the official hearing record. We will ask you to 
please keep your statements to five minutes so that we may have 
time for questions.
    The witnesses include: Mr. Glenn Casamassa, who is the 
Associate Deputy Chief of the U.S. Forest Service; Mr. Mike 
Pool, who is the Acting Deputy Director of the Bureau of Land 
Management; Major General Martin Whelan, who is the Director of 
Future Operations at the U.S. Department of the Air Force, and 
you are accompanied by Ms. Jennifer Miller, who is the Deputy 
Assistant Secretary regarding Installations.
    So welcome to all of you.
    If we could start with you, Mr. Casamassa.

STATEMENT OF GLENN CASAMASSA, ASSOCIATE DEPUTY CHIEF, NATIONAL 
    FOREST SYSTEM, U.S. FOREST SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF 
                          AGRICULTURE

    Mr. Casamassa. Yes, Mr. Chairman, members of the 
Subcommittee, my name is Glenn Casamassa and I serve as the 
Associate Deputy Chief for the National Forest System.
    There are four bills I've been asked to address, and I have 
provided written testimony for the record.
    S. 1423, the Central Coast Heritage Protection Act, 
designates National Forest System lands on the Los Padres 
National Forest in California as wilderness and additional to 
existing wilderness and designates potential wilderness areas, 
scenic areas and a national recreation trail.
    The legislation also directs the Forest Service to study 
creating a connection between the northern and southern 
portions of the Los Padres using a trail corridor, directs the 
Forest Service to study the feasibility of opening a new trail 
to an existing off-highway vehicle trail and additional access 
to wilderness scenic areas and potential wilderness areas by 
Indian tribes for traditional, cultural and religious purposes.
    The Department is generally supportive of the 24 additions 
of the eight existing wilderness areas and the designation of 
the new Diablo Caliente Wilderness and would like to work with 
the bill's sponsor and the Subcommittee to develop legislative 
maps and additional language to clarify the intentions of some 
portions of the bill.
    The Department supports the Wild and Scenic River 
designation and will provide more details on the suitability, 
eligibility and classification information with the bill's 
sponsors and the Subcommittee to facilitate as much consistency 
as possible between the agency's findings and the river 
segments proposed for designation in the bill.
    Senate bill 1510, the Wild Olympic Wilderness and Wild and 
Scenic River Act of 2015, would designate new and expand 
existing wilderness areas, potential wilderness areas and 
certain rivers in the Olympic National Forest and Olympic 
National Park as wild and scenic rivers.
    The Department supports designation of suitable rivers to 
the national wild and scenic river system as well as the new 
wilderness areas and additions to existing wilderness in S. 
1510.
    The Department would like to work with the bill's sponsors 
and the Subcommittee on aspects of the bill such as the 
identification of potential locations of future restoration or 
habitat improvements, on language to be included in the bill 
that affords reasonable time for completion of the required 
comprehensive river management plan and boundary modifications 
to ensure that the boundaries are crafted to best support the 
agency's ability to manage and preserve wilderness 
characteristics.
    Senate bill 1699, the Oregon Wildlands Acts, would 
designate new and expand existing wilderness areas and would 
designate certain rivers in the Rogue River--Siskiyou in the 
Siuslaw National Forest as Wild and Scenic rivers.
    In summary, the Department is supportive of the following 
portions of the bill: Designate rivers and streams on National 
Forest System land as part of the National Wild and Scenic 
Rivers and defer to the Department of Interior in regard to the 
proposal to designate rivers and streams flowing on lands 
administered by the BLM; supportive of the technical changes 
that amend the existing designation in the Wild and Scenic 
Rivers Act as they provide a more appropriate naming convention 
and better reflect management classification and correction; 
supportive of the technical correction to remove the offensive 
name of the designation of Squaw Creek to Whychus Creek and 
other name designations; supportive of the designation of 
wilderness additions to the Wild Rogue Wilderness that has both 
BLM and U.S. Forest Service parcels; and, as we have previously 
testified in July of 2015 in support of Senate bill 132, the 
Oregon and California Land Grant Act of 2015, the designation 
of the Devil's Staircase Wilderness which would include 
transfer of administrative jurisdiction of 49-acre parcel 
managed by the BLM to the Forest Service to be managed as part 
of the Siuslaw National Forest as site of cultural significance 
to the Coos, Lower Umpqua and Siuslaw Indians. The Department 
would also like to work with the Subcommittee on some potential 
amendments and map revisions that we believe would improve this 
bill.
    With respect to Senate bill 1777, to amend the Wild and 
Scenic River, the Department opposes the amendment to the Wild 
and Scenic Rivers Act because it would create a negative 
precedent for other commercial recreation services providers on 
wild and scenic rivers across the country.
    The facilities and structures for commercial recreation 
services at Smith Gulch in Idaho are authorized and operated 
under a 20-year term, special use permit to the River of No 
Return Lodge Incorporated issued and administered by the Salmon 
Challis National Forest. This permit is issued with provisions 
and terms similar to those of recreation facilities throughout 
the National Forest System. The permit takes into account the 
location and surrounding of facilities improvements the public 
values if affected by such an operation and any specific public 
health and safety concerns.
    The Department encourages the operator or the recreation 
services business at Smith Gulch to work with the appropriate 
local Forest Service official to revise any issues related to 
their existing permit.
    This concludes my remarks of the four bills. I'd be happy 
to answer any questions. Thank you for the opportunity.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Casamassa follows:]
    
    
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    Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much for your testimony.
    Mr. Pool.

STATEMENT OF MIKE POOL, ACTING DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR OPERATIONS, 
   BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

    Mr. Pool. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, 
and members of the Subcommittee. I am Mike Pool, the BLM Acting 
Deputy Director for Operations.
    Thank you for the opportunity to present this testimony 
today which will briefly summarize our written statements.
    Senate bill 1167 focuses on the boundaries and the 
management of six wilderness areas in the Owyhee Canyonlands 
regions of Idaho. The Department acknowledges the dedicated 
efforts of the stakeholders to collaborate on issues concerning 
wilderness management in this region and we generally support 
stakeholder driven efforts to redefine management boundaries; 
however, the Department strongly opposes this bill because it 
proposes broad management changes that will lift the central 
protections from the wilderness areas. We would like to work, 
take the opportunity to continue to work with Senator Crapo and 
the Subcommittee on a balanced approach to issues concerning 
roadless management in this region.
    Senate bill 1423 would designate three wilderness areas on 
BLM managed land within the Carrizo Plain National Monument in 
California, establish the Black Mountain Scenic Area on lands 
managed by the BLM and the Forest Service and designate or 
expand nine wilderness areas within the Los Padres National 
Forest, two of which would include BLM-managed public lands. 
The Department supports this bill as it pertains to lands 
managed by the BLM and would like to work with Senator Boxer 
and the Subcommittee to address various technical concerns 
including ensuring consistency with the 2010 Carrizo Plain RMP 
and correcting various references to other laws.
    Senate bill 1699 would establish two new National 
Recreation Areas on forest lands in Western Oregon, protect 
over 280 miles of Oregon rivers under the Wild and Scenic 
Rivers Act and establish new conservation designations in 
Western Oregon. The Department shares the goals to protect, 
conserve and enhance the unique recreational and natural 
resources of the proposed recreational areas and support the 
bill's conservation designations. We would like to work with 
Senator Wyden and the Subcommittee on clarifying the impact of 
the management language for the proposed recreational areas on 
existing commercial, recreation and timber production 
activities and to provide updated maps that are more closely 
tailored and aligned to the various designations in the bill.
    Senate bill 2018, relating to Glennallen, Alaska and Senate 
bill 2379 relating to Utah Park in Tucson, Arizona would 
require the Department to convey without consideration 
reversionary interest in two parcels pending under the 
Recreation of Public Persons Act. The Department supports the 
goal of conveying the reversionary interest in both of these 
bills and could support them if they were amended to ensure the 
payment of fair market value for the conveyance of the 
reversionary interest.
    Senate bill 2223 would transfer approximately 200 acres of 
public land to the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to be 
incorporated into the Black Hills National Cemetery in South 
Dakota. The Department supports this bill and we look forward 
to working with the state's congressional delegation and the 
Subcommittee to meet the needs of the Black Hills National 
Cemetery.
    Senate bill 2383. As introduced Senate bill 2383 provides 
for the limited use and short-term closure of approximately 
700,000 acres of public lands surrounding Utah Test and 
Training Range by the United States Air Force. The bill would 
also direct a large land exchange between the BLM and the State 
of Utah and recognizes the existence and validity of 
unsubstantiated rights of way claims, RS2477. The Department 
supports the military's periodic limited use of the lands 
surrounding the UTTR and we support the concept of major land 
exchanges like this one that further the public interest, 
consolidate ownership of scattered tracks of land to make them 
more manageable and enhance resource protection. We do not, 
however, support the withdrawal for the proposed share use 
area. We also strongly oppose the resolution of unsubstantiated 
rogue claims in the manner laid out in the bill. We appreciate 
the efforts of Senator Hatch and the Subcommittee to begin 
addressing the concerns we raised in our testimony on the House 
version of the bill, and we look forward to continuing our 
discussion.
    Finally, the National Park Service also submitted a 
statement for the record in support of Senate bill 1510, the 
Wild Olympic Wilderness and Wild and Scenic Rivers Act.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify today, and I'll be 
glad to answer any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Pool follows:]
    
    
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    Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much.
    General.

 STATEMENT OF MAJOR GENERAL MARTIN WHELAN, DIRECTOR OF FUTURE 
OPERATIONS, DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR OPERATIONS, HEADQUARTERS, 
   U.S. AIR FORCE; ACCOMPANIED BY JENNIFER L. MILLER, DEPUTY 
     ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INSTALLATIONS, U.S. AIR FORCE

    General Whelan. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member, 
distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to come before you to discuss this important issue, 
specifically the need to balance responsible land management 
with evolving military requirements at the Utah Test and 
Training Range.
    If enacted, S. 2383, would provide the Air Force the 
capability to employ larger weapons safety buffers at the Utah 
Test and Training Range or UTTR, through the temporary closure 
and use of some current BLM land and any state land transferred 
to BLM. This would be accomplished at little additional cost 
and with no disruption to the historically responsible 
environmental management of these prized lands.
    The Air Force believes the bill's concept of short periodic 
closures is the best way to serve the public's interest while 
addressing both the Air Force's emerging operational 
requirements and the Department of Interior's effective 
stewardship of these lands.
    The Air Force's operational capabilities are advancing at a 
rate that challenges the geographic boundaries of the ranges. 
These constraints compromise effective tests and evaluation and 
our ability to conduct realistic and relevant live training. 
One important aspect driving the need for larger geographic 
containment is the increasing size of weapon safety footprints.
    For safety reasons it is vital that the Air Force control 
for the duration of a mission. Access to the areas oppose even 
a remote risk to the public from debris or components should 
the weapons event fail. The Air Force's enviable test safety 
record is testimony to this extraordinary level of caution.
    In the last 20 months the Air Force expended over 27,000 
munitions in support of Operation Inherent Resolve which is 
more than we expended during all of Operation Iraqi Freedom. 
The Air Force's involvement in such combat operations is not 
expected to decrease in the near future. A well-trained force 
and continued testing and training of our improved combat 
capabilities are critical to our continued success supporting 
these operations.
    Technological advances incorporated in both our legacy and 
newest combat aircraft and the weapons associated with those 
systems represent an unprecedented leap in combat capability. 
These advances enable crews to identify and engage multiple 
targets from greater distances with improved accuracy. This 
technology that enables the greater employment distances and 
increases precision drives the need for larger segments of 
range and buffer lands.
    Safely containing large footprint weapons testing 
historically accomplished at the UTTR is especially 
challenging. Some standoff weapons footprints soon exceed the 
capability of our existing range enterprise configuration to 
provide the superior live weapons testing and tactics 
techniques and procedure validation that have long been a U.S. 
strategic advantage in combat capability and readiness.
    We are working diligently and creatively to overcome these 
limitations. In some cases, we've relied on modeling and 
simulation to accomplish the specific events. In other cases, 
we simply accept certain levels of artificiality that degrade 
the training quality for live events at the local and regional 
levels.
    Given these gradual drifts from realistic training and 
realistic reliance on simulation it is absolutely imperative we 
sustain certain irreplaceable live environments, like the UTTR, 
to accomplish these unique and uncompromising tests and 
training events.
    In the past and under select circumstances the Department 
of Defense components have assumed administrative jurisdiction 
over buffer lands with full responsibility for land management. 
Generally however, it is neither efficient nor cost effective 
for the services to expend resources on full time land 
management when all that is required is brief periods of 
restricted access.
    This bill is similar to legislation allowing the overlap of 
weapons safety footprints on the Cabeza Prieta in Arizona. That 
example, commonly decided by the Air Force in how to 
successfully enable military missions while minimizing the 
impact on other agencies and the public. If enacted, S. 2383 
would likewise provide the Air Force a much needed capability 
through brief closures to BLM land and any state land 
transferred to the BLM.
    We believe this bill's concept of short periodic closures 
would serve the public interest better than the alternative of 
complete withdrawal. We recognize the Administration continues 
to have concerns with several provisions of S. 2383 that we may 
create challenges for effective management of these lands. We 
welcome the opportunity to continue working with the sponsors 
and the Department of the Interior to address these concerns.
    I thank you for the opportunity to come before you and I 
welcome any questions.
    [The prepared statement of General Whelan follows:]
    
    
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    Senator Barrasso. Thank you so very much.
    Ms. Miller, do you have anything to offer in addition? I 
know you are here primarily in a support role.
    Ms. Miller. Supporting role, Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much.
    We will turn to the questioning now with Senator Lee.
    Senator Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I 
appreciate your willingness to accommodate my schedule.
    General Whelan, can you tell us why it is important from an 
Air Force readiness standpoint to have the UTTR expanded and 
enhanced as soon as possible, especially given that both the 
388th and the 419th fighter wings are already out there this 
year trying to achieve F35 Iowa City this year?
    General Whelan. Thank you, Senator, and I appreciate the 
opportunity to explain the importance of the Utah Test and 
Training Range in this particular legislation to help us with 
our training, our tactics, techniques and procedures 
development and effectively the readiness of the force.
    As our new generation fighters, the F35 and F22, have 
longer ranges and the weapons with them have longer ranges, we 
effectively can engage weapons at a distance that preserves the 
capabilities that we have and the people that fly our weapons. 
So by employing those weapons at longer distances the 
probability of something going wrong covers a greater land 
mass. And through this legislation by increasing these buffer 
areas we're able to do realistic testing without any of the 
artificialities that we currently have to put in place to 
enable the live testing, realistic testing, that we do to 
enhance our capability.
    We also support the fact that we don't need this access 24/
7, 365 days a year. And so by allowing these buffer lands with 
the periodic shortages, not to exceed three hours, not to 
exceed 100 hours a year, allow us to do our effective training 
while also maintaining the access to the lands and the programs 
that are effectively run by the Department of Interior.
    Senator Lee. So this plan really does minimize the impact 
on surrounding communities, the inconvenience anybody else 
might suffer?
    Tell us what it would do though if we do not get this done 
in a timely manner? What kind of impact would that have on the 
Air Force? What would be the consequence of that?
    General Whelan. Sir, if we don't get the opportunity to 
make the changes that are brought forth in this legislation 
we'll continue to have to work on a case by case basis for each 
of the tests that we do. Our process is set up that we program 
testing and training long in advance. We program through 
Congress for the funding to do all the testing, development and 
then the training of our crews and without this legislation 
we'll have to continue to de-conflict on a more manpower 
intensive basis than through the procedures that are being 
allowed for under this legislation.
    Senator Lee. Thus limiting the ability that we would 
otherwise have to take full advantage of this new technology, 
this new platform, this new weapons system?
    General Whelan. Yes, sir. It would limit our ability to 
test.
    For instance, today, to make sure that the footprint stays 
sufficiently small, we either reduce the speed of the aircraft 
that we would normally use to engage the weapon which is an 
artificiality because in combat we won't do that or we come 
down in altitude and actually dispense the weapon at a lower 
altitude to bring down that area which we wouldn't normally do 
in a contested environment.
    So by allowing the buffer zone we're able to maintain the 
range space and the buffer zones that we need to do this 
training and effectively train our crews to go into combat, 
should that become necessary.
    Senator Lee. Okay. In that case we need to get this done, 
don't we?
    General Whelan. Yes, sir.
    Senator Lee. Thank you very much, General.
    General Whelan. Thank you, sir.
    Senator Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Lee.
    Senator Heinrich.
    Senator Heinrich. Mr. Chairman, first let me ask unanimous 
consent to put into the record statements from Senator Patty 
Murray on S. 1610 and Senator Barbara Boxer on S. 1423.
    Senator Barrasso. Without objection.
    [The information referred to follows:]
    
    
    
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    Senator Heinrich. Mr. Casamassa, let me start with you.
    There seems to be a little bit of confusion around S. 1777. 
You heard my colleague at the beginning, Senator Risch of 
Idaho, state that this commercial lodge is on private land. My 
understanding is that it is on Forest Service titled land. Who 
actually owns the title to this property?
    Mr. Casamassa. Senator, the National Forest. It's on 
National Forest System lands.
    Senator Heinrich. So it is actually on public land not on 
private land?
    Mr. Casamassa. On public land and it is permitted on as it 
relates to the public land.
    Senator Heinrich. Okay, that is very helpful to clear that 
up.
    Major General Whelan, it is great to see you again. I want 
to ask you a couple of questions about the Utah Test and 
Training Range legislation.
    First, let me say that I support the intent of this 
legislation, and I think we will get there on this because it 
is quite important. But I wanted to ask you, in particular, 
about Title III which seems to be somewhat incongruent with the 
rest of this legislation.
    This section of the bill grants nearly 6,000 miles of 
rights-of-way across three Utah counties. Is Title III of H.R. 
4579 in any way driven by military necessity?
    General Whelan. Thank you for the question, sir.
    From an Air Force operational perspective, we're looking 
for the contiguous support but if I may have Ms. Miller, see 
if----
    Senator Heinrich. Sure.
    General Whelan. She's more the detail for our specific land 
use part of the mission area.
    Senator Heinrich. That would be fine.
    Ms. Miller. Yes, Senator.
    The Air Force doesn't have any particular equity in Title 
III. We understand that there may be some concerns with 
Department of Interior and BLM, but there's no operational 
requirement for that provision from the Air Force perspective.
    Senator Heinrich. And it was not drafted in response to any 
request from the Air Force?
    Ms. Miller. Correct, Senator.
    Senator Heinrich. Great, that is very helpful.
    Director Pool, is the land exchange in S. 2383 a result of 
a negotiation between the BLM and the state and have you gone 
through the typical exchange decision-making process in this 
case?
    Mr. Pool. Senator, I think there's been some informal 
discussions regarding both respective sets of properties. But I 
think we're still on the front end in that this would be a, at 
least under our authority, it would come under FLPMA.
    Senator Heinrich. Right.
    Mr. Pool. And that we would have to proceed with an 
inventory process of values associated with public lands. And 
we're going to have to address the suitability and public 
interest determinations through the NEPA analysis process. So 
that's, kind of, where we're at at this stage.
    Senator Heinrich. Having not done NEPA or gotten that far 
down the road yet on this, are you aware of any sensitive 
public resources in this area?
    Mr. Pool. I think there's some cultural resources. There's 
some historic mining districts. There's some greater sage 
grouse habitat associated with some of these parcels.
    So I think we're just going to have to do a more intensive 
evaluation of all parcels and make a determination of whether 
or not they should be transferred out of federal ownership.
    Senator Heinrich. What about tribal consultation? Is any 
tribal consultation--
    Mr. Pool. That would occur as part of the exchange NEPA 
process.
    Senator Heinrich. Okay.
    Mr. Pool. We would indeed do that.
    Senator Heinrich. I also wanted to switch gears to Owyhee 
country.
    I am wondering if you can help us better understand the lay 
of the land with the grazing guidelines that govern grazing in 
national wilderness areas.
    I am going to read a short section from the motorized 
vehicle use section. ``Where practical alternatives do not 
exist, maintenance or other activities may be accomplished 
through the occasional use of motorized equipment. The use of 
motorized equipment should be based on a rule of practical 
necessity and reasonableness. Moreover, under the rule of 
reasonableness, occasional use of motorized equipment should be 
permitted where practical alternatives are not available and 
such use would not have a significant adverse impact on the 
natural environment.''
    The way that I understand that is typically interpreted is, 
for example, if you have to do an activity like taking silt out 
of a silted in stock tank, something where the only practical 
way to do that in many cases is to go in once every 10-15 years 
with a backhoe, dig that out under permit, and then you are 
done. Whereas, if say you are just mending a fence and you can 
take your T bars and your fence post pounders and things on 
horseback, then that would be required as the least impactful 
tool in that case. Can you talk a little bit about those 
guidelines and what they mean for areas like this?
    Mr. Pool. I can.
    Your scenarios are good analogies of what we can authorize 
by basically going through what we call a minimum effects 
analysis. We address those on a case by case depending on the 
type of access the permitee needed prior to wilderness 
designation, and it varies.
    But we go through, first of all, we have to determine if 
it's even necessary. And if so, then we go through a range of 
alternatives including motorized, non-motorized and it's on a 
case by case.
    So, I think we try to be fair and practical in working with 
our permitees to provide the needed access they need to have to 
get into some of these improvements.
    Senator Heinrich. Thank you very much.
    Senator Barrasso. I have just a couple of questions for Mr. 
Casamassa and Mr. Pool.
    Today we are considering several pieces of legislation. 
When you combine it all it would designate almost a half a 
million acres, 458,194 acres, of new wilderness. That number 
does not include another 625,000 acres of BLM lands withdrawn 
for national security purposes or the additional 118,000 acres 
of BLM lands recommended for withdrawal and repurposing as 
national recreation areas even though these areas would not 
allow the use of motorized vehicles on permanent or temporary 
roads.
    I would like to talk about one specific category of land 
withdrawal that I mentioned in the opening statement. This is 
the idea of potential wilderness. Between S. 1423, S. 1510 and 
S. 1699, there are almost 50,000 acres, about 48,900 acres, of 
land recommended for this designation as potential wilderness. 
So, it is a lot of land.
    The 1964 Wilderness Act did not really provide for a 
category called potential wilderness. It had other categories, 
but not a category for potential wilderness. So while the 
National Park Service Act of 1976 established a category for 
potential wilderness, it did so for National Park System units 
only.
    So both the BLM and the Forest Service have lands in these 
bills that would be designated as this new category, this 
potential wilderness land, which are currently lands used as 
multiple use.
    Could you explain a little bit about how your agencies plan 
to use a potential wilderness designation to convert land from 
multiple use to designated wilderness? How does this all work?
    Mr. Casamassa. Senator, one of the things that we'd have to 
do is assess what the non-conforming uses are within the 
potential wilderness areas, determine the impacts of those and 
then consider how we would then mitigate those uses in those 
areas and eventually reduce those non-conforming uses in order 
to then phase that into designated wilderness.
    Senator Barrasso. Mr. Pool, would you like to add 
additional comments?
    Mr. Pool. Yes.
    We have two methods by which the wilderness designations 
could result within BLM.
    The first authority was 603 under the Federal Land Policy 
and Management Act (FLPMA). It directed the agencies to 
inventory public lands for wilderness characteristics, 
determine the suitability for wilderness management and produce 
wilderness suitability reports and report to Congress. Those 
currently exist throughout the Western range lands, and only 
Congress can either release or designate those areas 
wilderness.
    The other authority that we use as part of our planning is 
under FLPMA 201. That requires us to maintain an ongoing 
inventory of resource values associated with public lands and 
that does include wilderness characteristics. So if we're going 
through a planning process or if we acquire new lands, just 
like we inventory all other natural resources, we do inventory 
for wilderness characteristics and we maintain those values in 
their current form. That's what we do today.
    So there's two different authorities that help us manage 
the wilderness program.
    Senator Barrasso. Mr. Casamassa, back with you looking at 
this wild Olympics bill, S. 1510.
    In 2012 the Port of Port Angeles released an economic 
impact analysis. They detailed the implications of S. 1510. The 
study concluded that the wilderness designation would result in 
reduced timber yields, and they said that there were more than 
400 jobs, intersector jobs, in terms of job losses in the 
region. This legislation is going to add over 125,000 acres of 
Olympic National Forest to the wilderness tally.
    Could you just explain a little bit of how the Forest 
Service plan to reduce allowable acreage available for timber 
harvest on the peninsula would work without impacting yields 
and how would that work and the implications are consistent 
with that study from 2012?
    Mr. Casamassa. Yes, Mr. Chairman, the--we estimate that it 
is approximately eight percent of that total, 123,000 acres 
that are currently in suitable timber management areas. That 
certainly would be, you know, those 10,000 acres would be 
collectively reduced from the overall timber base and the lands 
that we would manage as forest management. There would be some 
level of impact, but given that it's 10,000 acres, it would be 
somewhat minimal based on the significance of it all.
    Senator Barrasso. Senator Heinrich.
    Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Casamassa, I understand that the goal of S. 1777 is to 
allow the installation of solar panels on the cabins at Smith 
Gulch. But I have to admit I was a little confused to see lawn 
mowers, weed trimmers and hydroelectric generation and 
transmission facilities listed as equipment that would be 
allowed under the legislation as they do not seem to be related 
to the installation of solar panels.
    Can you shed any light on why that equipment is included in 
that legislation?
    Mr. Casamassa. Senator, as far as the way that the terms 
and conditions of the existing permit for that facility reads 
there are limitations as to what, if anything, would be 
permitted in addition to what is presently being permitted. 
These are requests that are being made, and we don't 
necessarily believe that they're in conformance with the terms 
and conditions of the permit authorized to not only this 
outfitting and guide camp but adjacent outfitting and guide 
camps along the river corridor as well.
    Senator Heinrich. Great. That's very helpful. As a former 
outfitter guide, I see where you're coming from.
    I want to say just a word about S. 1510. I support Senator 
Murray's Wild Olympics bill which was carefully designed, 
frankly, to protect and grow the local outdoor recreation 
economy on Washington's Olympic peninsula. The bill provides 
permanent protections to important wildlife habitat and 
recreation land. It protects the health of rivers and streams 
that provide drinking water to thousands of Washingtonians. I 
hope there are at least a few salmon in those. It supports the 
robust shellfish industry as well and seeks to improve the 
health of Puget Sound.
    I have heard from Senator Murray that her bill is supported 
by thousands of Washington residents including many on the 
Olympic peninsula, local and national recreation and 
conservation organizations, outdoor recreation companies and 
local elected leaders. I just wanted to put on the table my 
support for that legislation, and I look forward to working 
with her to accomplish that.
    Finally, before we wrap up, I will just leave one last 
commentary and then turn it back over to the Chair.
    We have heard a little bit today about multiple use versus 
wilderness. That is a little bit, to me, as a former outfitter 
guide, of an apples and oranges comparison simply because 
wilderness is multiple use. Grazing is allowed in wilderness. 
Hunting is allowed in wilderness. Fishing is allowed in 
wilderness. I was a guide in wilderness areas, so obviously, 
recreation as well.
    So while it does come with certain limitations, it also 
comes with a multiple use mindset that is not completely 
incongruous with the overall multiple use mandate that our 
public land agencies have.
    Thank you all.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Heinrich.
    Mr. Pool, when the original Owyhee initiative began in 2000 
it was a collaborative effort between diverse stakeholders 
including the Shoshone-Paiute tribe, ranchers and locals, state 
governments, environmental groups, people working together. The 
collaboration resulted in the Owyhee Public Land Management Act 
of 2008. It was signed into law as part of the Omnibus Lands 
bill of 2009.
    At the time the legislation was negotiated, the BLM left 
the stakeholders with the impression that current permittees 
would be able to continue reasonable grazing activities on new 
wilderness land, including the use of motorized vehicles for 
herding and for routine inspections. That was the impression 
that was left. So can you tell us what led the BLM to revise 
that policy to now disallow the use of motorized equipment for 
herding and routine inspections in livestock management in this 
area where it had previously been allowed?
    Mr. Pool. Yeah, Mr. Chairman, I think that we've, our 
criteria, we feel like using motorized equipment, ATV-type 
applications, is not consistent with the purpose of the 
Wilderness Act or the values that are associated with that 
designation.
    We have worked with our permittees, continue to provide 
them as needed authorizations to use motorized vehicles to get 
to their improvements, and I think we've been very reasonable. 
But when you start using ATVs or motorcycles to herd cattle, we 
believe that is inconsistent with the purpose of the Wilderness 
Act.
    Senator Barrasso. I am going back to the impression that 
was left with the current permittees when all this 
collaborative effort came through.
    Does this decision then impact only the Owyhee Wilderness 
Area or will it also impact other wilderness areas with grazing 
permits? And if so, how many acres are we talking about and how 
many AUMs have been impacted by this decision or have all the 
permittees been given an opportunity to comment on this policy 
and this decision?
    Mr. Pool. Well, I don't know to what extent there are other 
wilderness areas that BLM manages where we would allow 
motorized vehicles for herding or gathering. I know of none. 
But many of our wilderness areas that we manage in BLM we do 
provide a continuation of livestock use in the designated 
wilderness areas. That's clearly afforded in the act itself. 
And then we continue to work with them, case-by-case basis, you 
know, on the minimal effects tools to determine if we can 
permit the permittee to use motorized vehicles, including in 
some cases heavy equipment, to maintain their grazing and 
permits.
    Senator Barrasso. Thank you.
    Senator Heinrich, do you have any additional questions?
    Senator Heinrich. No.
    Senator Barrasso. If not, I want to thank all of you for 
taking time to be with us today and for your testimony.
    Other members of the Committee may submit written questions 
to you. If they do, I hope that you will respond quickly in 
writing. The hearing record will be open for two weeks.
    Senator Barrasso. I want to thank all the witnesses for 
your time and testimony today.
    The hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 3:24 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.]

                      APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

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