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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY**

**+ + + + + PACKAGED TERMINAL AIR CONDITIONERS AND**  **PACKAGED TERMINAL HEAT PUMPS**

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + MONDAY**  **APRIL 28, 2014**

**+ + + + +**

**The Public Meeting convened in Room 8E-089, Department of Energy Headquarters,**  **1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m, Doug Brookman, Facilitator,**  **presiding.**

**PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator, Public**  **Solutions, Inc. ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy**  **JAVIER BURGOS, Navigant Consulting DAVE CASE, Department of Energy**  **GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned Utilities**  **RONALD MAJETTE, Department of Energy LAURA PETRILLO, Air-Conditioning Heating and**  **Refrigeration Institute RUSTY THARP, Goodman Manufacturing Company** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **A-G-E-N-D-A Welcome, Introductions and**  **Opening Statements . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Regulatory History . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8**  **Covered Products . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 Test Procedure Amendments. . . . . . . . . . .10**  **Closing Remarks. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .55**

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1** 

### P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S **2** 

### 9:06 a.m. **3** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, **4** 

### everyone. Welcome. This is the test **5** 

### procedure notice of proposed rulemaking for **6** 

### packaged terminal air conditioners and **7** 

### packaged terminal heat pumps. **8** 

### Today is April 28th, 2014, here in **9** 

### the Forrestal Building in Washington, D.C. My **10** 

### name is Doug Brookman from Public Solutions in **11** 

### Baltimore and we're going to start with **12** 

### welcoming remarks from Ashley Armstrong. **13** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. I'd just **14** 

### like to welcome everyone here to the **15** 

### department and our public meetings. We **16** 

### appreciate those that have come all the way **17** 

### here in person especially. **18** 

### We expect this meeting to be **19** 

### pretty brief but the point of these meetings **20** 

### is to really get feedback from you guys. So **21** 

### we encourage you to participate, ask **22** 

### questions, tell us where we have done a good

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1** 

### job, tell us where we haven't done such a good **2** 

### job and maybe further work is needed or **3** 

### anything like that. **4** 

### So like I said, we appreciate you **5** 

### guys coming and for those participating on the **6** 

### Web participation is key to us. It helps us **7** 

### get a better product for everyone in the end. **8** 

### So with that, Doug, do you want me **9** 

### to go through the next couple of slides really **10** 

### quick or do you want to - **11** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. Go right **12** 

### ahead. **13** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Maybe that's not **14** 

### going to work. **15** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe I'll just do **16** 

### the agenda. Have all of you received a packet **17** 

### of information? But before we do that we'll **18** 

### do introductions around the room, our name and **19** 

### organizational affiliation. **20** 

### MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with **21** 

### Goodman Manufacturing. **22** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Laura Petrillo,

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 AHRI. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,**  **3 representing the California Investor Owned 4 Utilities which are Pacific Gas & Electric,**  **5 Southern California Edison, San Diego Gas & 6 Electric and the Southern California Gas**  **7 Company. 8 MR. BURGOS: Javier Burgos, from**  **9 Navigant Consulting. 10 MR. MAJETTE: Ron Majette, U.S.**  **11 DOE. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Please introduce**  **13 yourself. 14 MR. CASE: Dave Case, DOE.**  **15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. All of 16 you received a packet of information. The**  **17 agenda as you see before you there on Page 4 18 is pretty straightforward. After this and a**  **19 few introductory remarks there's an 20 opportunity for brief opening statements for**  **21 anyone that wishes to do so. 22 Following that, we'll have a** 

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1** 

### description of regulatory history and directly **2** 

### following on covered products and from there **3** 

### test procedure amendments, and at the end of **4** 

### the day today whenever we get there you get **5** 

### another opportunity for comments and closing **6** 

### remarks and I'd ask for your consideration - **7** 

### please speak one at a time, saying your name **8** 

### for the record each time you speak. **9** 

### There will be a complete **10** 

### transcript of this meeting. If you can be **11** 

### concise, share the air time with your friends **12** 

### here. Keep the focus here please. **13** 

### Turn your cell phones on silent **14** 

### mode and webinar participants, we welcome you. **15** 

### The Department of Energy is trying hard to **16** 

### make these meetings accessible to all. **17** 

### If you'd keep your telephone on **18** 

### mute and raise your hand to be recognized to **19** 

### speak and we'll try and get you verbally into **20** 

### the room here. It's been working most of the **21** 

### time that you can just speak and we can hear **22** 

### you well in the room. So we wish to make this

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**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1** 

### accessible that way. **2** 

### So then having said that, back to **3** 

### Ashley. **4** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the only **5** 

### thing I'm going to highlight left before we do **6** 

### opening statements is we have these issue **7** 

### boxes throughout the discussion. The issue **8** 

### boxes are specific issues for which we'd like **9** 

### your comment and feedback on. **10** 

### The numbering matches up to the **11** 

### numbering in the notice so you can go back and **12** 

### forth and see what those are. Obviously, feel **13** 

### free to bring up other issues though that **14** 

### aren't just highlighted at the issue boxes. **15** 

### So opening, right? **16** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Any opening **17** 

### statements here at the outset? Gary **18** 

### Fernstrom. **19** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: So Gary Fernstrom **20** 

### for the California Investor Owned Utilities. **21** 

### Just quickly, the California IOUs seek test **22** 

### procedures in general that fully describe the

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### energy efficiency performance characteristics **2** 

### of products being tested. **3** 

### In this case, that would be the **4** 

### performance at different outside and inside **5** 

### temperature and humidity conditions and the **6** 

### performance at full as well as part load **7** 

### value. **8** 

### Having this information allows us **9** 

### to identify the energy use and savings **10** 

### potential in different climate zones and **11** 

### applications, fully understanding that **12** 

### performance then allows us to decide if we **13** 

### want to structure rebate programs for these **14** 

### things. **15** 

### So we appreciate DOE's work in **16** 

### setting test standards and determining minimum **17** 

### energy efficiency performance levels. Of **18** 

### course, we'd like to see the latter be as high **19** 

### as possible. But important to us is the **20** 

### information that comes out of the testing. **21** 

### Thank you. **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very

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### much. Other comments here at the outset? I **2** 

### guess that's it then. We'll go to Ron **3** 

### Majette. **4** 

### MR. MAJETTE: Okay. Briefly, **5** 

### going to go over the next three slides **6** 

### concerning the regulatory history. Okay. **7** 

### Again, my name is Ron Majette from the U.S. **8** 

### Department of Energy. **9** 

### The test procedure for today **10** 

### covers packaged terminal air conditioners and **11** 

### heat pumps, and procedures were discussed in **12** 

### 10 CFR 431.96. **13** 

### In December of 2006, DOE **14** 

### established the test procedure in a final rule **15** 

### and this final rule incorporated ANSI/AHRI **16** 

### Standard 310/380-2004 by reference. **17** 

### On May 16th, 2012, we established **18** 

### the final rule for commercial heating and air **19** 

### conditioning equipment and water heating **20** 

### equipment, and this rule amends the test **21** 

### procedure for PTACs and packaged terminal heat **22** 

### pumps.

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### Now, the early part of last year **2** 

### DOE published a notice of public meeting to **3** 

### discuss the availability of the framework **4** 

### document for this. I think some of you might **5** 

### have actually attended that meeting. **6** 

### All right, and in that particular **7** 

### framework document we were seeking comments, **8** 

### mainly about the equipment break-in period, **9** 

### wall sleeve ceiling, pre-filling the **10** 

### condensate pan, barometric pressure correction **11** 

### and the differences between the different **12** 

### standards - ASHRAE Standard 16 and ASHRAE **13** 

### Standard 37. **14** 

### Okay. On February 26th, 2013, the **15** 

### ASRAC committee formed a working group to **16** 

### engage in negotiated rulemaking to amend **17** 

### commercial HVAC certification requirements. **18** 

### The group gave recommendations and **19** 

### a number of test procedure amendments for the **20** 

### PTACs, a lot of which we were able to **21** 

### incorporate into this document, and DOE **22** 

### proposed these test procedure amendments

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### without modification in today's rulemakings. **2** 

### So yes, we do not expect this to **3** 

### be very, very controversial. It seems like **4** 

### it's well vetted throughout the industry. **5** 

### All right. So I think at this **6** 

### point we're going to go ahead and turn this **7** 

### over to Javier Burgos from Navigant. **8** 

### MR. BURGOS: Hello. My name is **9** 

### Javier Burgos. I'm a consultant at Navigant. **10** 

### Here we'll go over the next couple of **11** 

### sections. **12** 

### The first one is covered products. **13** 

### This section is pretty simple. It basically **14** 

### contains the definitions as they are written **15** 

### in the CFR for PTACs and PTHPs. **16** 

### You'll note that the definition **17** 

### includes the wall sleeve, the refrigeration **18** 

### system as well as the choice of heating. So **19** 

### there's no questions on that. **20** 

### We'll go on straight to the next **21** 

### section, which is proposed changes to a test **22** 

### procedure. This section was really the meat

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### of the NOPR. We'll start out. **2** 

### As Ron mentioned, the current test **3** 

### procedure right now is AHRI 310/380(2004. **4** 

### It's actually contained in 10 CFR 431.96. I **5** 

### mean, this is sort of the section in the CFR **6** 

### that incorporates such procedures for multiple **7** 

### different kinds of commercial AC equipment. **8** 

### So it's all kind of intermingled in there. **9** 

### AHRI 310/380 in its stead **10** 

### references ASHRAE 16, ASHRAE 37 and ASHRAE 58. **11** 

### All right. These are these **12** 

### proposed changes to the test procedure. One **13** 

### is explicitly allowing for a break-in period. **14** 

### Two is requiring sealing of gaps between the **15** 

### wall sleeve and test facility wall. **16** 

### Three is explicitly allowing for **17** 

### pre-filling of the condensate drain water pan **18** 

### with water. Four is requiring ASHRAE 16 as **19** 

### the sole method of test for measuring cooling **20** 

### capacity. **21** 

### Five is requiring testing of a **22** 

### 14-inch wall sleeve, and six is requiring

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### testing of the most typical filter option **2** 

### shipped with a unit. **3** 

### Now, some of these items came out **4** 

### of the ASRAC working group recommendations. **5** 

### Some of these DOE requested comment on in the **6** 

### framework. There was also a number of items **7** 

### here that DOE considered but did not propose **8** 

### changes on. **9** 

### Each one of these items is **10** 

### described in greater detail in the NOPR but in **11** 

### this presentation we'll basically be going **12** 

### through each one of these items one by one and **13** 

### there will be comment boxes - an opportunity **14** 

### to comment on each one of these things. **15** 

### All right. If there is no **16** 

### questions on that we'll start with the first **17** 

### item, which is the break-in duration. And **18** 

### now, this is one of the items that DOE **19** 

### requested comment on in the framework **20** 

### document. **21** 

### We'll point out that in 10 CFR **22** 

### 431.96 there's actually a provision for

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### conducting break-in testing on other pieces of **2** 

### commercial AC equipment including unitary air **3** 

### conditioners, SPVUs and VRFs. And so DOE **4** 

### requested comments on whether break-in would **5** 

### be appropriate for PTACs and PTHPs. **6** 

### DOE received comments that were **7** 

### supportive of the proposal including break-in **8** 

### periods. As well DOE conducted some testing **9** 

### on PTACs to investigate the impacts of **10** 

### break-in performance and that also supported **11** 

### sort of using the proposal for 20 hours, which **12** 

### is already contained in the CFR. **13** 

### And so DOE's proposing to allow **14** 

### PTAC and PTHP testing to use an optional **15** 

### break-in period of up to 20 hours. That's **16** 

### consistent with what's contained already in **17** 

### the CFR for other commercial air conditioning **18** 

### equipment and they're also proposing to **19** 

### require manufacturers to report the duration **20** 

### of the break-in period that they choose to **21** 

### use. **22** 

### At this point we're going to hit

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### our first comment box. We're asking for a **2** 

### comment on, you know, this proposal in terms **3** 

### of adding the optional break-in period, and **4** 

### are there any questions or comments on the **5** 

### break-in proposal? **6** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom. **7** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: I'll pass. Thank **8** 

### you. **9** 

### MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with **10** 

### Goodman. We'll say that we support DOE adding **11** 

### the break-in provision. We would support a **12** 

### longer time than 20 hours. **13** 

### The reality of our products now we **14** 

### probably would not use them longer than 20 **15** 

### hours but we do have - I have seen some data **16** 

### where some compressors do require longer than **17** 

### 20 hours to maintain - to attain full ready **18** 

### performance. **19** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: How much longer **20** 

### would you like to see it? **21** 

### MR. THARP: In our other testing **22** 

### in unitary small products for AHRI we'd go as

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### high as 72 hours. **2** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Wow. **3** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley **4** 

### from DOE. So I'm going to request then that **5** 

### as we have in other products that you submit **6** 

### data, because to date what we have seen, **7** 

### especially what was submitted for some of the **8** 

### other unitary products was some curves that **9** 

### show leveling out a little before 20 and very **10** 

### little difference post-20 as compared with the **11** 

### cost and expense of leaving that unit to be **12** 

### broken in longer. **13** 

### So like I said, we're always open **14** 

### to data and we're really interested to see **15** 

### that data if you have any additional data that **16** 

### would suggest a longer period is warranted. **17** 

### Just to make one clarification to **18** 

### this, the second bullet is really key. We are **19** 

### allowing up to 20 hours. If you don't do it **20** 

### and don't report it we don't have to do it. **21** 

### If you do use an AEDM to rate your **22** 

### product we will always do it. That's what the

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### proposal at least specifies now, which is very **2** 

### consistent with what we're doing for unitary **3** 

### - other types of commercial air conditioning **4** 

### equipment where we already have provisions **5** 

### adopted. **6** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: And if you wish to **7** 

### - anybody wishes to comment on that second **8** 

### provision that she noted. Gary Fernstrom. **9** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary **10** 

### for the California IOUs. You noted that in **11** 

### some cases you find it desirable to use a **12** 

### longer break-in period I presume because the **13** 

### mechanical components wear in and perhaps seal **14** 

### better, you know, giving a better performance. **15** 

### We would - we would want to **16** 

### recognize that performance and would support **17** 

### AHRI in utilizing a longer period when it's **18** 

### appropriate to get a better indication of the **19** 

### equipment's steady state performance for final **20** 

### performance after break-in. **21** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. **22** 

### Rusty.

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### MR. THARP: We'll supply some data **2** 

### with our written comments that would, we **3** 

### believe, support longer break-in times. **4** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. **5** 

### MR. BURGOS: All right. Javier **6** 

### Burgos. Thank you, everyone. We will **7** 

### continue on to the next item, which is wall **8** 

### sleeve sealing. Again, DOE asked for comment **9** 

### on this issue in the framework document. **10** 

### Here, PTACs and PTHPs are tested **11** 

### as described in testing set-ups that are in **12** 

### ASHRAE 16 and ASHRAE 37. One concern right **13** 

### now is that air leakage through the gaps **14** 

### between the sleeve and the insulating material **15** 

### can impact the test in ways that, one, are not **16** 

### representative of field use, and two, can **17** 

### introduce variability, especially variability **18** 

### between test labs. **19** 

### And so currently DOE asked for **20** 

### comments. Comments were generally supportive **21** 

### of adding air sealing into the test procedure. **22** 

### And so DOE's proposal is to

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### propose that - to require that test facilities **2** 

### who install PTACs and PTHPs in the test **3** 

### chamber seal all potential gaps between the **4** 

### wall sleeve and the dividing wall. **5** 

### And in this case we have an item **6** 

### for comment. Especially, we're asking for two **7** 

### specific things on this proposal, whether the **8** 

### test procedures should specify the method of **9** 

### sealing, and two, whether a test, you know, **10** 

### exists that could sort of either verify or **11** 

### quantify sort of this installation. **12** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. **13** 

### MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with **14** 

### Goodman. I would suggest that a specific **15** 

### method of sealing should not necessarily be **16** 

### specified either to - mandatory a manufacturer **17** 

### to use either tape or caulk or putty, whatever **18** 

### their choice is. **19** 

### I am - the second issue I am not **20** 

### aware of a test that would define how to **21** 

### measure how well it's sealed. I guess what I **22** 

### would support is requirement for documenting

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### with pictorial pictures how it was sealed in **2** 

### the test report. **3** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. **4** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Laura Petrillo, **5** 

### AHRI. All the manufacturers state that even **6** 

### duct tape would be adequate. So as long as **7** 

### the entire perimeter is sealed we're good to **8** 

### go. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom. **10** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Gary for the **11** 

### California IOUs. As I understand it, the AHRI **12** 

### standard contains some specifications **13** 

### regarding the seal. Is that correct? I am **14** 

### speaking specifically of AHRI 310/380-2004. **15** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley **16** 

### from DOE. My understanding, and I can go back **17** 

### and look at this - I don't have it in front of **18** 

### me - my understanding is it does specify or it **19** 

### does suggest that it should be sealed. **20** 

### My understanding, though, is it **21** 

### doesn't exactly get to the level of detail **22** 

### that either some may want or some may not want

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### as long as it's sealed. **2** 

### So I think what we're trying to **3** 

### get at is - at with this question is I think **4** 

### there's a general agreement that sealing is a **5** 

### good thing. It's just a matter of do we need **6** 

### additional specificity before what - besides **7** 

### what is already there, and what I'm hearing at **8** 

### least from these two is maybe not, just good **9** 

### documentation that it's on. **10** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary **11** 

### again. I agree, sealing is good. I don't **12** 

### think that's so important exactly how it's **13** 

### done. **14** 

### MR. BURGOS: Okay. Thank you. **15** 

### All right. Great. In that case we'll move **16** 

### on. The next item is pre-filling of the **17** 

### condensate drain pan. **18** 

### This is pretty similar to the last **19** 

### two provisions in the sense it is an item that **20** 

### it isn't explicitly addressed in the test **21** 

### procedure. **22** 

### But to, you know, the item we're

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### discussing here is to reach equilibrium as **2** 

### described in DOE test procedure in ASHRAE 16 **3** 

### PTACs and PTHPs generally need to reach a **4** 

### certain level of condensate in the pans and **5** 

### this equilibrium level has to be reached **6** 

### before you're allowed to continue ongoing **7** 

### testing. **8** 

### Now, the process of achieving this **9** 

### condensate level can actually be very time **10** 

### consuming if you rely solely on the device. **11** 

### And so in order to accelerate the - basically **12** 

### the point of reaching equilibrium so you can **13** 

### go ahead and conduct the test, test labs have **14** 

### filled the drain water - the drain water pan **15** 

### with water prior to testing. **16** 

### This is an issue that DOE sought **17** 

### comment on in framework documents and then the **18** 

### commenters, again, were generally supportive **19** 

### of the addition to the test procedure. **20** 

### And so DOE is proposing to add a **21** 

### provision to allow manufacturers the option of **22** 

### pre-filling the condensate drain pan before

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### starting the efficiency test, and here we're **2** 

### asking for comment on this proposal, **3** 

### specifically as well on two different things, **4** 

### you know, perhaps regarding the water's **5** 

### characteristics. **6** 

### We're asking whether DOE should **7** 

### require recording and documenting of, one, the **8** 

### temperature of the water, and two, the purity **9** 

### of the water. **10** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. **11** 

### MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with **12** 

### Goodman Manufacturing, and I believe that it **13** 

### would be good. As of right now we don't have **14** 

### some specific test data to support it but I **15** 

### think we should specify that the water **16** 

### temperature should be measured before - at a **17** 

### minimum measured as it goes in because in the **18** 

### design of many PTACs and PTHPs the liquid line **19** 

### will actually be routed through the condensate **20** 

### and so the temperature of the condensate can **21** 

### have a measurable impact on the liquid feeding **22** 

### evaporator.

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### Also, the temperature of the water **2** 

### could have an impact on as it's being splashed **3** 

### onto the condenser coil it could have an **4** 

### impact on the condensing temperature, which **5** 

### has a measurable impact on the power **6** 

### consumption of the compressor. **7** 

### So even half a degree difference **8** 

### as far as the condensing temperature will be **9** 

### measurable on the compressor performance. **10** 

### Therefore, I think we - and then we should **11** 

### record it. **12** 

### We're doing some internal testing **13** 

### ourselves so that we can provide some **14** 

### information and submit written comments. But **15** 

### I think it's good to, at a minimum, have it **16** 

### recorded. **17** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Thank you. **18** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. **19** 

### Gary. **20** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary for **21** 

### the California IOUs. We support that. Also, **22** 

### we think if we're going to require that or

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### allow that the pan be filled with external **2** 

### water that it be filled to the overflow point, **3** 

### that some specification be given regarding how **4** 

### full it's filled. **5** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Laura. **6** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Laura Petrillo, **7** 

### AHRI. As Rusty mentioned, the quality isn't **8** 

### that important but the temperature may be and **9** 

### we're going to try to take some measurements **10** 

### of some naturally filled condensate pans, you **11** 

### know, from while we're doing our certification **12** 

### program tests. **13** 

### It's been suggested that in the 40 **14** 

### to 50 degree Fahrenheit range might be the **15** 

### most appropriate. But we'll see what actually **16** 

### happens and we'll let you replicate that. **17** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. **18** 

### And nothing about mineral content, nothing **19** 

### additional about that? **20** 

### MS. PETRILLO: No. **21** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. **22** 

### MR. BURGOS: All right. Thank

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### you. Javier Burgos. The next item we have **2** 

### here is ASHRAE 16 and ASHRAE 37. DOE **3** 

### requested comment on this item in the **4** 

### framework document. **5** 

### Right now, the current test **6** 

### procedure allows for testing of PTACs and **7** 

### PTHPs using either ASHRAE Standard 16 or **8** 

### ASHRAE Standard 37 to determine the cooling **9** 

### capacity. **10** 

### However, there are some **11** 

### significant differences in the methodology of **12** 

### these two standards, with potential for **13** 

### significant differences in the test results. **14** 

### Something DOE went ahead and did **15** 

### was we had some testing of equipment comparing **16** 

### ASHRAE 16 and ASHRAE 37 and we did find that **17** 

### there could be significant differences, and **18** 

### some of those results are summarized here on **19** 

### this slide. **20** 

### And so DOE also requested comment **21** 

### on this item and the comments were generally **22** 

### supportive of adopting ASHRAE 16. And so in

### Page 27

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### order to standardize this testing DOE is **2** 

### proposing to require that only ASHRAE 16 be **3** 

### used when conducting a cooling mode test for **4** 

### PTACs and PTHPs. **5** 

### And one thing we're very **6** 

### interested in learning is, you know, if there **7** 

### is a burden on manufacturers with this **8** 

### requirement, you know, specifically how many **9** 

### products may be being tested using ASHRAE 37. **10** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. **11** 

### MR. THARP: Thank you. Rusty **12** 

### Tharp with Goodman, and I just want to clarify **13** 

### one of the comments from the March meeting we **14** 

### had last year. **15** 

### Goodman noted as indicated in this **16** 

### NOPR that we supported DOE adopting ASHRAE 16. **17** 

### That was based upon the assumption that at **18** 

### that time that ASHRAE 16 would be adopting **19** 

### psychometric testing into its procedure. **20** 

### We have a fair amount of - we **21** 

### actually do more psychrometric testing than **22** 

### calorimetric testing in our facilities. We

### Page 28

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### have two psych rooms and one cal room and **2** 

### based on our test data we see - we do not see **3** 

### the type of difference that was indicated in **4** 

### these testing. **5** 

### We specifically did some testing **6** 

### earlier this year and in our testing I can say **7** 

### that our average psychrometric was .14 ER **8** 

### higher than the cal testing, and we find that **9** 

### our psychrometric rooms are fairly in line **10** 

### with what we see from the cal testing that's **11** 

### performed in AHRI audit tests. **12** 

### So we believe that these should **13** 

### not eliminate psychrometric testing from **14** 

### cooling load. Another major reason for that **15** 

### is because cal testing is - takes a lot longer **16** 

### than psych testing. **17** 

### Talking with our lab manager we **18** 

### can get maybe two cal tests done in an **19** 

### eight-hour shift if things go well, and if **20** 

### things go well with psych testing we can get **21** 

### five tests done. **22** 

### So there's a pretty significant

### Page 29

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### difference in the amount of tests that we can **2** 

### get. Also, when you're talking about heat **3** 

### pumps, and I know the energy advocates and **4** 

### others are pushing for eliminating or at a **5** 

### minimum reducing cooling only PTACs, and if **6** 

### you're going to do cal testing and the cooling **7** 

### testing in a cal room and then heating tests **8** 

### in a psych room that's a major burden pulling **9** 

### the unit in and out between the two and **10** 

### especially during development testing. **11** 

### If you're - you know, as the **12** 

### manufacturer if you're looking at, you know, **13** 

### using 18, 20 or 22 per inch your manufacturer **14** 

### may have those three coils ready to go in a **15** 

### unit and if you're doing psych testing you can **16** 

### probably get all three of those done in an **17** 

### eight-hour shift to see the relative **18** 

### performance difference whereas in a cal room **19** 

### that's three days. So we are a proponent of **20** 

### keeping psychrometric testing. **21 22**  

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Gary

### Page 30

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### Fernstrom. **2** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary for **3** 

### the California IOUs. So Rusty, I don't **4** 

### profess to know what the best way to test **5** 

### these things is but I do wish to know what **6** 

### their performance is under all the different **7** 

### conditions that we might see. This goes to my **8** 

### opening comment. **9** 

### So a question - when you're **10** 

### testing the cooling performance in a **11** 

### psychrometric room do you test down to low **12** 

### humidity areas like we might experience in the **13** 

### high desert of southern California? **14** 

### MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with **15** 

### Goodman. We do a fair amount of testing for **16** 

### different things before efficiency testing. **17** 

### We don't necessarily do anything besides the **18** 

### mandated tests. For example, AHRI we **19** 

### typically do high ambient 115 degrees in both **20** 

### - in psych room or cal room. **21** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Well, the **22** 

### reason I asked that question was to try and

### Page 31

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### see whether the performance measurements might **2** 

### reflect those field conditions. Also, on the **3** 

### heating end we're particularly interested in **4** 

### the situation where electric resistance heat **5** 

### might come on and significantly change the **6** 

### heating characteristic of the heat pump. **7** 

### So we'd be interested in covering **8** 

### in the test procedure the operating point **9** 

### where we switch to electric heat and we can **10** 

### understand the energy impacts of that. Thank **11** 

### you. **12** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. **13** 

### Additional comments here? **14** 

### MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp **15** 

### with Goodman for - Gary, for clarification I **16** 

### don't think - for the 16 versus 37 I don't **17** 

### think there's a significant difference for the **18** 

### issues that you're commenting on there as far **19** 

### as wanting the high ambient. **20** 

### So if you're testing on 115 you **21** 

### could do it either in a cal room or a psych **22** 

### room but you could get the data faster in a

### Page 32

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### psych room. **2** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. **3** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: And this is **4** 

### Ashley. Just to follow up on that point, my **5** 

### understanding also is that neither of the **6** 

### procedures, right, would get you the **7** 

### additional data that you want for the points, **8** 

### either, you know, when the heat - when the **9** 

### electric - what's the tipping point as to when **10** 

### the electric resistance heater is going to **11** 

### come on as well as something in the high **12** 

### ambient low humidity range. **13** 

### That would be explicit changes DOE **14** 

### would need to consider to one or both **15** 

### procedures depending. So - **16** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you, Ashley. **17** 

### That's right. We're just trying to make the **18** 

### point we would wish to have information that **19** 

### covers the full range of performance. Thanks. **20** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I guess the **21** 

### question that - I'm going to turn his question **22** 

### back to Rusty. If you were able to provide us

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### data because obviously we tested a limited **2** 

### number of products, if you were to provide us **3** 

### data and a larger data set showing that the **4** 

### impacts that DOE characterized were really **5** 

### less when you consider a larger data set and **6** 

### DOE should consider both methods as equitable **7** 

### results. **8** 

### Would then manufacturers be open **9** 

### to the idea of additional data points, as Gary **10** 

### asked, since it's easier to do in a psych **11** 

### room? **12** 

### MR. THARP: We are open to working **13** 

### with the stakeholders for what's best. **14** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is **15** 

### Gary. We realize there's a tradeoff between **16** 

### testing burden and having every little piece **17** 

### of information, you know, you would wish to **18** 

### have. **19** 

### But similarly we'd like to be open **20** 

### to this and hope to have a reasonable **21** 

### compromise. **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Rusty.

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### Laura. **2** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Yes. I'd like to **3** 

### suggest a compromise. So like Rusty **4** 

### mentioned, eight trials supported going to **5** 

### ASHRAE 16 if the eight included both test **6** 

### procedures. **7** 

### Now that, you know, we're here and **8** 

### it hasn't we'd like to see the data that you **9** 

### all collected for those units as well so that **10** 

### we can make a comparison between some, you **11** 

### know, data on our own and what you guys have **12** 

### done. **13** 

### And because of the additional **14** 

### burden to build the calorimeter room, and not **15** 

### all of our manufacturers have them and they **16** 

### would have to conduct testing on their entire **17** 

### product line if they had previously tested it **18** 

### using the psych room test, you know, the time **19** 

### to build a calorimeter room to, you know, **20** 

### validate its performance and obtain all the **21** 

### test data that they would need to for all **22** 

### their units would - you know, we would like an

### Page 35

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 extension on the compliance date. So two 2 years instead of one.**  **3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 4 Gary.**  **5 MR. FERNSTROM: So just for the 6 record I'd like to say we'd be open to that.**  **7 You know, we think an additional year is well 8 worth the trade of having additional**  **9 information. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**  **11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We aren't there 12 yet but while we're on the topic - so this is**  **13 Ashley from DOE - just to clarify your 14 position, you're open to an extension of the**  **15 compliance date if we end up proposing or 16 adopting additional data points.**  **17 Do you stick with the one-year 18 compliance date if we leave the procedure as**  **19 is with the single point - well, with the 20 single ambient conditions and full load?**  **21 MR. FERNSTROM: Precisely. Thank 22 you for that clarification.** 

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Good clarification. **2** 

### Okay. **3** 

### MR. BURGOS: All right. Javier **4** 

### Burgos. I think we'll move on. Thank you for **5** 

### those comments. **6** 

### The next item we're going to **7** 

### address is wall sleeve size. This is one of **8** 

### the items that are covered by the ASRAC **9** 

### working group which Ron referred to a bit **10** 

### earlier in the presentation. **11** 

### And the issue here is that, you **12** 

### know, these PTACs and PTHPs can come in **13** 

### different sleeve sizes and specifically **14** 

### different depths. **15** 

### This can have, you know, an impact **16** 

### on the overall test result and so here we are **17** 

### basically proposing a way to kind of **18** 

### standardize this testing. **19** 

### This is something that the working **20** 

### group looked into. They recommended that **21** 

### PTACs and PTHPs using sleeves - used sleeves **22** 

### with a standard depth of 14 inches during

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### testing. **2** 

### DOE also did some market research **3** 

### on this item and the market research showed **4** 

### that 14 inches is actually the most common **5** 

### sleeve depth. **6** 

### And so DOE's proposal is to add a **7** 

### provision to the test procedure to require **8** 

### testing using the wall sleeve with a depth of **9** 

### 14 inches or if, you know - or if, you know, **10** 

### that option isn't there the - basically the **11** 

### wall sleeve option is closest to 14 inches in **12** 

### depth. **13** 

### And this is - we believe this is **14** 

### consistent with the working group's **15** 

### recommendation and, you know, this is another **16** 

### item where we're interested in comment on. **17** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. **18** 

### MR. THARP: Goodman Manufacturing. **19** 

### We fully support it. **20** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. AHRI? **21** 

### MS. PETRILLO: AHRI fully supports **22** 

### this.

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Laura. **2** 

### Okay. **3** 

### MR. BURGOS: All right. Thank **4** 

### you. We'll move on to the next one which is **5** 

### filter requirement. Again, this is another **6** 

### item that is also covered by the ASRAC working **7** 

### group. **8** 

### Much like wall sleeves, **9** 

### manufacturers can have different types of **10** 

### filters for a PTAC and you know there's **11** 

### limited guidance right now as to which filter **12** 

### that should be used. **13** 

### The working group basically **14** 

### discussed this issue and adopted the position **15** 

### that units should be tested as shipped with **16** 

### respect to selecting a filter option. **17** 

### And so DOE is proposing to add a **18** 

### provision to the test procedure to acquire **19** 

### testing using a wall - require testing using **20** 

### a standard or default filter option that's **21** 

### shipped with most units, and for all those **22** 

### that are shipped without a filter DOE is

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### proposing to use an off-the-shelf MERV-3 **2** 

### filter for testing. And I guess that's not on **3** 

### - what's on the slide so I can repeat that if **4** 

### anyone needs to hear it. **5** 

### This is an item as well that we're **6** 

### looking for feedback on both on the proposal **7** 

### to use the standard or default filter or on **8** 

### the off-the-shelf MERV-3 filter for units that **9** 

### are shipped without one. **10** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Would you repeat **11** 

### what's not on the slide? I didn't - I missed **12** 

### that. **13** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: It's in the - it's **14** 

### in the issue box. That's fine. **15** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. **16** 

### MR. BURGOS: Yeah. **17** 

### MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with **18** 

### Goodman. Participated in the commercial **19** 

### specification working group so we're in **20** 

### support of these proposed changes. **21** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. **22** 

### Laura?

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### MS. PETRILLO: Yes, also support. **2** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. **3** 

### MR. BURGOS: All right. Thank **4** 

### you. So we'll move on to the next item. Now **5** 

### we're going to get to a couple of items that **6** 

### DOE considered but ultimately proposed no **7** 

### changes for. **8** 

### The first one was the barometric **9** 

### pressure correction. This is an adjustment **10** 

### that's found in ASHRAE 16. The slide lists **11** 

### some of the details of that adjustment, **12** 

### basically consists of an allowance to upwardly **13** 

### adjust the cooling capacity when the measured **14** 

### barometric pressure is below standard **15** 

### pressure. **16** 

### Ultimately, DOE requested comment **17** 

### on this in the framework document but, you **18** 

### know, we had not received any data supporting **19** 

### or rejecting this. **20** 

### And so, you know, as it currently **21** 

### stands DOE is not proposing to amend or remove **22** 

### this provision. But we're also looking for

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### comments and especially any data showing what **2** 

### are, you know, any modification or revision **3** 

### that may be needed. **4** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. **5** 

### MR. THARP: Ashley and the DOE **6** 

### notes our position and that we think that **7** 

### barometric pressure adjustments are a good **8** 

### thing to have. So we support no changes. **9** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And AHRI? **10** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Same. **11** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: The same. Okay. **12** 

### No additional comment. **13** 

### MR. BURGOS: All right. Thank **14** 

### you. Javier Burgos. All right, looking at **15** 

### part load metrics. DOE also received some **16** 

### comments during the framework meeting for **17** 

### considering the part load metric. **18** 

### The current test procedure **19** 

### basically only considers performance at full **20** 

### load cooling or full load heating at capacity. **21** 

### DOE considered these comments and we requested **22** 

### additional comments and data.

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### But right now we're unaware of any **2** 

### data showing that PTACs and PTHPs spend time **3** 

### operating in conditions other than full load **4** 

### and this data is essential in order to create **5** 

### a part load metric that will show, you know, **6** 

### how much time is spent at different part **7** 

### loading conditions which have been the way, **8** 

### you know, to create a full - to create a final **9** 

### metric. **10** 

### And so DOE is currently not **11** 

### proposing to adopt either a part load or a **12** 

### seasonal efficiency metric for the cooling **13** 

### mode or for the heating mode. But, again, we **14** 

### welcome any comments and as well, especially, **15** 

### data. **16** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. **17** 

### MR. THARP: Let Gary go first. **18** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. **19** 

### I've already made my comments. Thank you. **20** 

### MR. THARP: This is Rusty with **21** 

### Goodman and presently I think our **22** 

### psychrometric rooms, cal rooms are not

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### designed such they can go to really cold **2** 

### ambient. So we can't even do a 17 in our **3** 

### existing rooms. **4** 

### So if something were to be changed **5** 

### we would have to get three brand new rooms **6** 

### and, you know, we like this steady state **7** 

### efficiency task that we have today. It's **8** 

### simple and there's not as many issues as we **9** 

### have like with SEER and IEER. **10** 

### So we like the idea of maintaining **11** 

### a steady state efficiency. However, we also **12** 

### don't mind working to provide data where **13** 

### possible. **14** 

### But our preference is to stay with **15** 

### a single point metric as a regulated value and **16** 

### then working with other stakeholders to find **17** 

### out specific information that's needed and **18** 

### provide that outside of a DOE mandate. **19** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. **20** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: We're okay with **21** 

### the single metric but we would like to have **22** 

### this additional data reported so we could have

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### confidence in it. I don't know that it **2** 

### necessarily has to be required if it is in **3** 

### fact reported and validated voluntarily. **4** 

### And I understand there is some low **5** 

### cost space available in North Dakota and **6** 

### they'd be happy to accommodate your equipment **7** 

### and budget. **8** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. **9** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Laura Petrillo, **10** 

### AHRI. In the testing that DOE conducted did **11** 

### you guys look into this at all or - no? **12** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. The **13** 

### reason is obvious. There's a significant **14** 

### energy impact when you go to resistance **15** 

### heating and there's some new equipment coming **16** 

### on the market that has pretty good, very low **17** 

### temperature performance. So we'd like to be **18** 

### able to capture that effect and differentiate **19** 

### between those types of equipment. Thank you. **20** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. **21** 

### MR. BURGOS: All right. Thank you **22** 

### for those comments.

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: One - sorry, **2** 

### Javier, to interrupt. One question for you. **3** 

### Is it more important to - if DOE were to **4** 

### consider an optional test or potentially an **5** 

### optional with a reporting requirement type **6** 

### test, that's not something typically we do but **7** 

### that seems to be my understanding of what **8** 

### you're asking for. **9** 

### So if we were to consider **10** 

### something like that what is your most **11** 

### important other tests? Is it low ambient? Is **12** 

### it high humidity? I mean, is it low humidity? **13** 

### High temp? Is it part load? Is it a **14** 

### combination? **15** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: Well, thank you. **16** 

### That's an excellent question. If I were to **17** 

### have to rank them I would say the low **18** 

### temperature performance going to electric **19** 

### resistance is most important. **20** 

### The high ambient is second most **21** 

### important and the part load is third most **22** 

### important. Thank you.

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Laura? **2** 

### MS. PETRILLO: I'd be happy to **3** 

### take this back to the manufacturers and see **4** 

### what we can start working on. You know, it **5** 

### was everyone's opinion that, you know, a part **6** 

### load metric wasn't really representative of **7** 

### this type of equipment. **8** 

### But, you know, if there is a way **9** 

### to differentiate the performance at low **10** 

### temperatures, you know, I could see if they're **11** 

### open to that. **12** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: And the only **13** 

### reason we want it reported is to have the **14** 

### credibility associated with information that's **15** 

### reported to DOE. **16** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. And one **17** 

### thing where I'm going to ask of you if you **18** 

### could also take back to your working group **19** 

### whenever they tee up their next session, I **20** 

### know DOE and AHRI have been working closely as **21** 

### well as with manufacturers and other **22** 

### stakeholders, which we want to commit to

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### continue to doing. **2** 

### Part load is something that DOE I **3** 

### think is very interested in and I think I'll **4** 

### agree with you right now. **5** 

### When we did some research and **6** 

### looked into this a little bit - it may be **7** 

### premature now but that is something that we **8** 

### would like to bring up and maybe, you know, **9** 

### ask AHRI's working group along with the **10** 

### department to look into. **11** 

### So maybe it's primed for the next **12** 

### time we look at this, if we don't do it this **13** 

### time. **14** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Thanks, Ashley. We **15** 

### really appreciated the close work with the **16** 

### department and would be happy to continue that **17** 

### when it comes to these part load and low temp **18** 

### conditions. **19** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Laura. **20** 

### Gary? **21** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. **22** 

### I'd just like to point out that next time is

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### a long way away and I may not be attending **2** 

### these meetings at that point. **3** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, Gary, come on. **4** 

### We assume you're a lifer here. Come on. **5** 

### MR. BURGOS: Thank you for those **6** 

### comments. Now we're - have sort of a couple **7** 

### items left here that really aren't as **8** 

### technical. **9** 

### One is discussion of the **10** 

### compliance state. Currently, what we have in **11** 

### NOPR DOE does not consider that these changes **12** 

### would basically materially alter the energy **13** 

### efficiency of the equipment but most of them **14** 

### require sort of clarifications of the test **15** 

### procedure. **16** 

### And because DOE is not considering **17** 

### any changes to the effective date as they **18** 

### relate to the publication date of the final **19** 

### rule, you know, I think we've heard a couple **20** 

### of comments on this already. But are there **21** 

### any questions or comments on the compliance **22** 

### date?

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty? **2** 

### MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with **3** 

### Goodman. If there's changes to psych versus **4** 

### cal testing it will definitely need a longer **5** 

### time. Other than that - **6** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: You ready? So I **7** 

### think we obviously we need to clarify what **8** 

### this would require but if we were to adopt a **9** 

### singular method and make a determination that **10** 

### essentially the measured energy consumption - **11** 

### the ratings do not change under our adoption, **12** 

### that just means your ratings would have to **13** 

### still be valid. And once the new procedure is **14** 

### effected it would have to be used to generate **15** 

### new ratings going forward, and if old readings **16** 

### were no longer valid under the new method then **17** 

### you would have to retest. **18** 

### But if they continue to be valid **19** 

### you're okay. Does that - that should help **20** 

### with your point. **21** 

### MR. THARP: And I would, you know, **22** 

### again, based on our measurements that there's

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### not a significant difference I wouldn't be too **2** 

### concerned. **3** 

### But depending on, you know, if the **4** 

### existing products are grandfathered the **5** 

### reality remains that there's still any new **6** 

### stuff for us to go from doing most of our **7** 

### cooling testing in the psych room to cal **8** 

### testing. That means that would delay new **9** 

### product production. **10** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. So this is **11** 

### Ashley from DOE. I completely understand your **12** 

### point with 16 versus the - allowing both. I **13** 

### just wanted to clarify exactly what a **14** 

### compliance - exactly what this would require. **15** 

### MR. THARP: Thank you. **16** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Laura? **17** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Laura Petrillo, **18** 

### AHRI. Could we follow up on that question? **19** 

### So the test report requirements for products **20** 

### that are already, you know, under compliance **21** 

### in this - in the existing rule they don't have **22** 

### to be resubmitted with, you know, to the new

### Page 51

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1** 

### test procedure? **2** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So it depends and **3** 

### obviously this is something we will need to **4** 

### clarify in the final rule depending on what **5** 

### provisions actually get adopted. **6** 

### But if DOE is to make a **7** 

### determination that the measures of consumption **8** 

### do not change, thus ratings would stay the **9** 

### same more or less between the old procedure - **10** 

### in other words, the proposals and/or **11** 

### provisions that ultimately get adopted are **12** 

### clarifications in nature, then as long as the **13** 

### rating is still valid you're okay. **14** 

### Now, once the new proposal - once **15** 

### the final rule test procedure is effect that **16** 

### is the one that DOE will be using as well as **17** 

### everyone else should be using going forward, **18** 

### period. **19** 

### But if ratings are still valid **20** 

### they could continue. So we will need to flesh **21** 

### that out a little bit and obviously depending **22** 

### on the comments and what we end up adopting in

### Page 52

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1** 

### the final rule will have an impact on that. **2** 

### But we will definitely do that. **3** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Thanks, Laura. I'd **4** 

### be interested in hearing maybe some of the **5** 

### department's determinations on that before the **6** 

### comments are due. That may influence our **7** 

### comments. **8** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean - so this **9** 

### is Ashley - I think what we have in there **10** 

### right now is we believe everything that we've **11** 

### proposed does not change the measures of **12** 

### consumption based on the testing we had done **13** 

### or some of the investigations. Some of these **14** 

### things - it is my perception that they are **15** 

### already being done. **16** 

### It's pretty common practice. So **17** 

### that is our determination, that the ratings **18** 

### should more or less stay the same. They would **19** 

### continue to be valid. **20** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Thank you. **21** 

### MR. BURGOS: All right. Great. **22** 

### And so that's - Javier Burgos. At this point

### Page 53

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1** 

### I'm going to hand it over to Ashley Armstrong **2** 

### and she's going to take us home. **3** 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley. **4** 

### Our final proposal that we put in the NOPR was **5** 

### a verification and enforcement type proposal **6** 

### around cooling capacity and why this is **7** 

### important is because currently our product **8** 

### classes in the standard are dependent upon **9** 

### cooling capacity. **10** 

### And so what we've done here is **11** 

### propose a method for utilizing rated cooling **12** 

### capacity with an acknowledgment that cooling **13** 

### capacity whenever a unit is tested and from **14** 

### unit to unit may be slightly different. **15** 

### We've proposed a method to ground **16** 

### whether rated capacity is valid or not and **17** 

### we've done that through - the proposal is 5 **18** 

### percent. If we test a unit basically and it's **19** 

### within 5 percent of your rated we will be **20** 

### going forward with rated. If it's not you **21** 

### need to revise that rating. Okay? **22** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Laura?

### Page 54

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1 MS. PETRILLO: That's not a 2 two-sided tolerance, is it?**  **3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not a 4 two-sided, no.**  **5 MS. PETRILLO: Thank you. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Although I'm not**  **7 sure that we clarified that, though. I don't 8 think it's clear that that's - it's not. So**  **9 your point is well taken. 10 MS. PETRILLO: Thank you.**  **11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Rusty, 12 anything from you?**  **13 MR. THARP: No. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you support?**  **15 MR. THARP: That's what we live 16 with in AHRI today.**  **17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 18 MS. PETRILLO: Until AHRI's.**  **19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Laura.**  **21 Thank you, Rusty. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just in** 

### Page 55

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1** 

### closing, thank you guys all for coming. As I **2** 

### said, this was going to be a fairly quick **3** 

### meeting. But we appreciate everyone who **4** 

### traveled as well as those participating on the **5** 

### phone. **6** 

### Just a reminder, at the end of May **7** 

### is when comment period deadline is. If you **8** 

### have any issues - we've had some issues with **9** 

### emails lately. We've been testing them out. **10** 

### But if you wouldn't mind copying **11** 

### myself or Ron we can make sure if there are **12** 

### any issues that your comments get routed **13** 

### appropriately. But otherwise thank you for **14** 

### that and we look forward to getting your **15** 

### comments and feedback. **16** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Final comment from **17** 

### Gary Fernstrom and from anyone else who wishes **18** 

### to make a final comment. **19** 

### MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. **20** 

### We have one remaining comment that wasn't **21** 

### really on the agenda and that is we'd like to **22** 

### observe the - we think there's some equipment

### Page 56

**202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.**  **1** 

### now on the market that is of higher **2** 

### performance than DOE considered in its max **3** 

### tech evaluation. **4** 

### And specifically that would be the **5** 

### type of equipment that uses carbon dioxide as **6** 

### a refrigerant gas, giving it a wider range of **7** 

### performance. **8** 

### So we'd encourage DOE to take a **9** 

### quick look at that relative to their **10** 

### assessment of max tech, and I'd like to thank **11** 

### DOE and everybody for the collaborative nature **12** 

### of this meeting. **13** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very **14** 

### much. **15** 

### MS. PETRILLO: Thank you. **16** 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks **17** 

### to all of you and safe travels. **18** 

### (Whereupon, the above-entitled **19** 

### meeting concluded at 9:56 a.m.) **20 21**  **22**

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5:5,6 7:20,21 17:10 20:11 24:21 30:3,13 calorimeter 34:14

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40:13 41:20 53:6 53:9,12,13,16 capture44:18 carbon 56:5 case 1:17 5:14,14

8:3 19:5 21:15 cases 17:11 caulk 19:17 ceiling 10:9 cell 6:13 certain 22:4 certification 10:17

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40:20 42:10 48:10 53:7 curves 16:8 D D.C 1:12 3:9 Dakota44:5 data 15:15 16:6,14 16:15,15 18:1 23:14 28:2 31:22 32:7 33:1,3,3,5,9 34:8,11,21 35:16 40:18 41:1,22 42:2,4,15 43:12 43:22 date 16:6 35:1,15

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18:12 22:2 26:2,7 26:16,22 27:2,16 27:18 31:16 34:5 40:10 50:12 16th 9:17 1743:2 18 29:13 2 20 14:11,15 15:12 15:14,17 16:9,19 29:13 2006 9:13 2012 9:17 2013 10:14 2014 1:8 3:8 22 29:13 26th 10:14 28 1:8 28th 3:8 3 3 2:2 310/380 12:9 310/380-2004 9:16

20:14 310/380(2004 12:3 37 10:13 12:10 18:12 26:2,8,16 27:9 31:16 4 4 5:17 40 25:13 431.96 9:12 12:4 13:22 5 5 53:17,19 50 25:14 55 2:6 58 12:10 6 7 72 16:1 8 8 2:3 8E-089 1:11 9NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 65

Energy Conservation Standards for Packaged Terminal A/C and Heat Pumps

US DOE

04-28-14

Washington, DC