U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

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BIDEN’S BORDER CRISIS: EXAMINING 

EFFORTS TO COMBAT INTERNATIONAL 

CRIMINAL CARTELS AND STOP ILLEGAL 

DRUG TRAFFICKING TARGETING 

INDIAN COUNTRY 

OVERSIGHT HEARING 

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND 

INVESTIGATIONS 

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

Tuesday, June 4, 2024 

Serial No. 118–128 

Printed for the use of the Committee on Natural Resources 

( 

Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov 

or 

Committee address: http://naturalresources.house.gov 
(II) 

COMMITTEE ON NATURAL RESOURCES 

BRUCE WESTERMAN, AR, Chairman 

DOUG LAMBORN, CO, Vice Chairman 

RAU ́ L M. GRIJALVA, AZ, Ranking Member 

Doug Lamborn, CO 

Robert J. Wittman, VA 

Tom McClintock, CA 

Paul Gosar, AZ 

Garret Graves, LA 

Aumua Amata C. Radewagen, AS 

Doug LaMalfa, CA 

Daniel Webster, FL 

Jenniffer Gonza ́lez-Colo ́n, PR 

Russ Fulcher, ID 

Pete Stauber, MN 

John R. Curtis, UT 

Tom Tiffany, WI 

Jerry Carl, AL 

Matt Rosendale, MT 

Lauren Boebert, CO 

Cliff Bentz, OR 

Jen Kiggans, VA 

Jim Moylan, GU 

Wesley P. Hunt, TX 

Mike Collins, GA 

Anna Paulina Luna, FL 

John Duarte, CA 

Harriet M. Hageman, WY 

Grace F. Napolitano, CA 

Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, CNMI 

Jared Huffman, CA 

Ruben Gallego, AZ 

Joe Neguse, CO 

Mike Levin, CA 

Katie Porter, CA 

Teresa Leger Ferna ́ndez, NM 

Melanie A. Stansbury, NM 

Mary Sattler Peltola, AK 

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, NY 

Kevin Mullin, CA 

Val T. Hoyle, OR 

Sydney Kamlager-Dove, CA 

Seth Magaziner, RI 

Nydia M. Vela ́zquez, NY 

Ed Case, HI 

Debbie Dingell, MI 

Susie Lee, NV 

Vivian Moeglein, Staff Director 

Tom Connally, Chief Counsel 

Lora Snyder, Democratic Staff Director 

http://naturalresources.house.gov 

SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS 

PAUL GOSAR, AZ, Chairman 

MIKE COLLINS, GA, Vice Chair 

MELANIE A. STANSBURY, NM, Ranking Member 

Matt Rosendale, MT 

Wesley P. Hunt, TX 

Mike Collins, GA 

Anna Paulina Luna, FL 

Bruce Westerman, AR, ex officio 

Ed Case, HI 

Ruben Gallego, AZ 

Susie Lee, NV 

Rau ́l M. Grijalva, AZ, ex officio 
(III) 

CONTENTS 

Page 

Hearing held on Tuesday, June 4, 2024 ................................................................ 1 

Statement of Members: 

Gosar, Hon. Paul, a Representative in Congress from the State of 

Arizona ........................................................................................................... 1 

Stansbury, Hon. Melanie A., a Representative in Congress from the State 

of New Mexico ............................................................................................... 3 

Statement of Witnesses: 

Panel I: 

LaCounte, Darryl, Director, Bureau of Indian Affairs, Department of 

the Interior, Washington, DC ...................................................................... 5 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 6 

Questions submitted for the record ......................................................... 11 

Panel II: 

Roberge, Joshua, Chief of Police, Fort Belknap Indian Community, 

Harlem, Montana .......................................................................................... 21 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 23 

Zinn, Stacy, Former Resident in Charge, Rocky Mountain Division, Drug 

Enforcement Administration, Billings, Montana ....................................... 25 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 27 

Nores, John, Jr., Lieutenant (Retired), Special Operations, Marijuana 

Enforcement Team, California Department of Fish and Wildlife, 

Morgan Hill, California ................................................................................ 28 

Prepared statement of ............................................................................... 30 

Additional Materials Submitted for the Record: 

Submissions for the Record by Representative Gosar 

Oglala Sioux Indian Tribe, Statement for the Record ............................ 51 

(1) 

OVERSIGHT HEARING ON BIDEN’S BORDER 

CRISIS: EXAMINING EFFORTS TO COMBAT 

INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL CARTELS AND 

STOP ILLEGAL DRUG TRAFFICKING 

TARGETING INDIAN COUNTRY 

Tuesday, June 4, 2024 

U.S. House of Representatives 

Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations 

Committee on Natural Resources 

Washington, DC 

The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:07 p.m. in Room 

1324, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Paul Gosar 

[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. 

Present: Representatives Gosar, Rosendale, Collins, Westerman, 

Hageman, Crane, Bentz; and Stansbury. 

Dr. GOSAR. The Subcommittee on Oversight will come to order. 

Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of 

the Subcommittee at any time. 

The Subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on Biden’s 

border crisis, examining the efforts to combat international criminal cartels and stop illegal drug trafficking targeting Indian 

Country. 

Under Committee Rule 4(f), any oral opening statements at the 

hearing are limited to the Chairman and the Ranking Minority 

Member. I, therefore, ask unanimous consent that all other 

Members’ statements will be part of the hearing record if they are 

submitted in accordance with Committee Rule 3(o). 

Without objection, so ordered. 

I ask unanimous consent that the following Members be allowed 

to sit and participate in today’s hearing: the gentleman from 

Oregon, Mr. Bentz; the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Carl; the 

gentlewoman from Wyoming, Ms. Hageman; and the gentleman 

from Arizona, Mr. Crane. 

Without objection, so ordered. 

I now recognize myself for my opening statement. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. PAUL GOSAR, A REPRESENTATIVE 

IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ARIZONA 

Dr. GOSAR. First of all, I would like to take a moment and give 

a very special thanks to our witnesses for coming before the 

Committee today. 

A few months ago, before this very Subcommittee, tribal leaders 

bravely spoke about death threats, yes, death threats, they 

received from the international criminal cartels. Tribal leaders 

received death threats for daring to testify in front of Congress 

about the very real dangers their constituents are facing on a daily 

basis because of the cartel activity present in their communities. 
2 

Let that sink in for just a moment. International criminal 

cartels, not something you read about in the paper, not actors in 

movies, are actually threatening American citizens for testifying 

before Congress. The threat is real, and it is ongoing. It is imperative that we continue this conversation and move forward with 

some solutions. 

Today, we will discuss how law enforcement is currently working 

with these tribes to focus on these threats, and better understand 

the opportunities for improving interagency communications and 

operations in the future. 

I do want to mention that both the FBI and the Department of 

Homeland Security were invited to testify today, and both agencies 

declined. While I would have preferred to hear from them in 

person, as their presence is key to resolving this matter, it is my 

understanding they are offering briefings in the near future. Without cooperation between the tribes and these agencies, it will be 

nearly impossible to move forward. 

During our last hearing, President Jeffrey Stiffarm of Fort 

Belknap Indian Community stated, ‘‘One thing you really seem to 

overlook all the time are the threats, death threats we get from the 

cartel members. The threat of the cartels is real for our tribal 

communities, and it is imperative that we work to address it.’’ 

However, the Biden administration has presented a seismic challenge to addressing the issue at the border. From Day 1, the 

Administration has rolled back Trump administration policies such 

as Remain in Mexico, and allowed for open border policies to 

resume. 

Since President Biden assumed office, the Border Patrol has lost 

a quarter of its workforce. This can be at least partially attributed 

to President Biden’s catch-and-release policy, which allows illegal 

immigrants to remain in the United States while they await 

processing. 

The reduction in CBP agents exacerbates the border crisis, 

allowing the influence of the international criminal cartel activity 

to flourish nationwide. They have moved from a southern border 

nuisance to a nationwide pandemic, targeting tribal communities 

who can least afford to fight the scourge. 

Aside from the Biden administration’s lax immigration policies, 

this crisis is intensified by the jurisdictional confusion among law 

enforcement agencies. During the prior hearing, the Committee 

received alarming information regarding the working relationship 

between the tribes and law enforcement. 

President Stiffarm informed the Committee that on one occasion 

he spoke with the FBI agents patrolling the reservation. Reportedly, agents assigned to the area were unable to identify the tribes 

they were actually working for. During his testimony, he mentioned the lack of assistance from Federal agencies such as the 

FBI, DEA, BIA, and the Border Patrol. According to this testimony, 

the lack of communication and cooperation among entities is one of 

the key reasons cartels target tribal lands. 

Simply put, they know the laws won’t be enforced, and they can 

simply over-run by some sheer force. 

Jurisdiction in Indian Country is exercised by Federal, state, 

local, and sometimes tribal criminal justice agencies, depending on 
3 

the crime and the local agreements. However, different laws, rules, 

and court cases have been made clarifying jurisdictional boundaries 

difficult in some cases, or sharing jurisdiction nearly impossible in 

others. This has impacted the ability of law enforcement to respond 

to calls in and out of Indian Country. In other areas, recruitment 

and retention of law enforcement officers is a primary barrier to 

success. 

Aside from all the barriers that may exist, the goal here that I 

believe we can all agree on, no matter what side of the aisle, is to 

ensure that we eliminate the influence of the cartel activity on 

tribal lands, and ensure that tribes have a path forward for justice 

in their own communities. 

I look forward to hearing from the witnesses today to learn more 

about what is working and what is not. We will continue to work 

with partner agencies to identify solutions to help ensure that 

Federal law enforcement agents and the tribal police forces are 

able to work together and have the resources that they do so need. 

I now recognize the Ranking Member, Ms. Stansbury, for her 

opening statement. 

STATEMENT OF THE HON. MELANIE A. STANSBURY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW 

MEXICO 

Ms. STANSBURY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Director, thank you so much for joining us today. 

This is the second of a series of hearings that the Majority has 

called on this topic. And as I said in our April hearing on the same 

topic, I think it is clear to anyone who is working on issues around 

public safety and behavioral health in our tribal communities that 

it has been truly devastating to see the ways in which the fentanyl 

crisis has touched down in our tribal communities. In fact, the data 

that we do have available shows us that just last year over 1,590 

fatal overdoses happened in our tribal communities from methamphetamine and fentanyl alone. 

But I think it is important that we not just sit here in 

Washington, DC and talk about these issues, but actually address 

them through the tools that we have available to us. Over the last 

several months we have been working with tribal leaders, tribal 

organizations, law enforcement, and others to really understand. 

How do we stem the tide of these substances ending up in our communities? How do we help our Tribal Nations and empower our 

tribal law enforcement to tackle these issues on the ground? And 

how do we help those individuals who are suffering from addiction, 

and struggling with the daily challenges of what it means to be an 

addict? It means investing in our communities. 

While I appreciate and understand very deeply the challenges 

that it presents on the ground in terms of keeping these substances 

out of our communities, in fact, I just spent much of the last week 

talking to Border Patrol in New Mexico and Homeland Security, 

and it is true, in fact, we do need to have more law enforcement, 

more resources, more technology, and more manpower to keep 

these substances out of our communities. The solutions within our 

tribal communities are well known. 
4 

Our Tribal Nations have been asking the U.S. Government not 

just for years, but for generations to make good on their treaty and 

their trust responsibilities by the U.S. Government to properly 

fund tribal law enforcement. It was literally written into the 

treaties that the United States signed with many of our Tribal 

Nations, that safety and protection would be provided. 

So, I do want to take today to actually talk about solutions, since 

we have the benefit of having our Director of the Bureau of Indian 

Affairs here. And I want to put on the table what I hope that we 

can get behind in a bipartisan basis, which is that we need to take 

seriously our responsibilities as a Federal Government to appropriately fund and support these programs. 

So, Mr. Chairman, I hope that I can ask for your support and 

others on this side of the aisle, as well, as we put forward an 

endeavor to work with our tribes to try to put together a comprehensive law enforcement and drug interdiction bill. Over the 

next few months, we will be talking more to our Tribal Nations, 

doing consultation, working hopefully with all of you to talk about 

what is actually needed. 

First of all, we know that our tribes need funding. Whether they 

are direct service and receiving tribal law enforcement services 

from the BIA, or whether they are contracting and have their own 

law enforcement programs, we know that these programs are 

severely underfunded. In fact, Bryan Newland, who is our Assistant Secretary, stated that the underfunding is on the order of at 

least $3 billion across our 570-plus Tribal Nations. 

We also know from our tribes that mandatory funding would 

help them address the deficiencies that they face year to year. And 

I know that it is one of the significant things that Congress could 

do, in addition to other efforts to pass mandatory funding for water 

rights, for our other programs that support health care, like IHS 

and contract support costs. 

Secondly, we need to help our law enforcement officers. Our 

tribes are struggling to recruit and retain tribal law enforcement. 

There is already a Republican bill that Mr. Dan Newhouse has put 

forward which would provide for parity for our tribal law enforcement. I strongly support this bill. 

Finally, we need a significant and substantive investment in 

addiction treatment and prevention services. And the only way we 

are going to get there is if we properly fund the Indian Health 

Service and BIA and other contract services that tribes use to help 

support their communities. 

So, in closing, I do hope that we can keep this hearing focused 

on the substance. I hope we can keep it focused on what our tribal 

leaders have told us. And I hope that we do not turn this into a 

partisan dog and pony show that takes our tribes for granted. 

With that, I yield back. 

Dr. GOSAR. I will now introduce our witness for the first panel. 

Mr. Darryl LaCounte with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. 

Let me remind the witness that under Committee Rules, you 

must limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. 

You will see when you first get started the light will be green, 

then it will go to the yellow. Once you see that yellow, you have 

1 minute to wrap it up. Regardless, your whole testimony will be 
5 

placed in the record. If you go much past the red light, we will ask 

you to kind of sum it up. 

I now recognize Director LaCounte for his 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF DARRYL LACOUNTE, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF 

INDIAN AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, 

WASHINGTON, DC 

Mr. LACOUNTE. Thank you. Good afternoon, Chairman Gosar, 

Ranking Member Stansbury, and members of the Subcommittee. 

My name is Darryl LaCounte. I am the Director of the Bureau of 

Indian Affairs at the U.S. Department of the Interior. Thank you 

for the opportunity to discuss the Department’s efforts in stopping 

illegal drug trafficking in Indian Country. 

The United States has a trust relationship with each of the 574 

federally recognized tribes. With that trust relationship, we have a 

responsibility to protect the continued existence of Indian tribes 

and the safety of their communities. The Department and BIA 

plays a crucial role in upholding this responsibility through interagency coordination. 

Coordination with tribes and other Federal law enforcement 

agencies leads to successful investigations that disrupt and take 

apart drug trafficking organizations. On May 27, just recently in 

2024, the Division of Drug Enforcement, under the Office of Justice 

Services, BIA, stopped a vehicle for speeding on Interstate 40 in 

the Pueblo of Laguna, New Mexico. The DDE officer searched the 

vehicle and discovered 311,800 fentanyl pills valued at $12,472,000. 

Our investigations also target conspirators in and outside of 

Native communities to dismantle drug trafficking organizations. 

We also develop more cohesive responses to drug trafficking within 

Native communities, and train tribal law enforcement officers on 

how to spot and root out illegal drug traffickers. 

Our operations have successful outcomes, but we need to 

strengthen our efforts and address the structural challenges that 

affect the safety of Native communities. These structural challenges are documented in many reports commissioned by Congress 

to investigate the public safety concerns in Native communities. 

Each report reaches the same conclusion: We need to address these 

big, structural challenges to guarantee the safety of people in 

Native communities. 

The big structural challenges are increasing funding, addressing 

jurisdictional complexities, as you so pointed out, Chairman Gosar, 

and providing other needed resources for tribal justice personnel. 

Our 2021 Tribal Law and Order Act report estimates the total 

cost for public safety and justice programs in Indian Country is 

over $3 billion: $1.7 billion of that $3 billion for law enforcement 

programs, including tribal programs; $284.2 million for existing 

detention centers; and $1.5 billion for tribal courts. In that same 

report, the data shows that the BIA spent $246.3 million on tribal 

law enforcement; $123.1 million for detention facilities; and $62.8 

million for tribal courts, with only a small amount reaching tribes 

in public law, 280 states. This means that public safety and justice 

programs in Indian Country are funded at just 13 percent of the 

total need. 
6 

And the BIA is forced to heavily prioritize where funding is 

spent, leaving some areas underfunded, and that our first 

responders are forced to use outdated or minimally functional 

equipment. With our current budget, the BIA has focused on pay 

parity to increase our recruitment of qualified law enforcement officers. We are continuing to reduce the time to hire for the Bureau’s 

officers, but the lengthy background investigation process is one of 

the biggest obstacles to officer recruitment. Expediting the background investigation process would greatly help us recruit and hire 

qualified law enforcement candidates, which is why the BIA 

supports the passage of the BADGES Act. 

Qualified law enforcement officers must also understand the 

complex jurisdiction in Indian Country before starting an investigation. The complex matrix depends on who owns the land and the 

tribal status of those involved. If these issues are not resolved, 

investigations can be stalled and eventually overlooked. The patchwork of jurisdiction adds transaction costs to tribal policing that 

other agencies do not have to deal with. Congress has legislated 

several times to ensure tribes can protect their communities by reaffirming tribal jurisdiction over crimes committed within Indian 

Country. 

However, these jurisdictional mazes still exist. Reaffirming tribal 

jurisdiction is consistent with the core principle of selfdetermination and demonstrates our understanding that tribal governments are best situated to meet the health, welfare, and safety 

of their citizens. 

Reaffirming jurisdiction is not enough. We have to make sure 

that tribal law enforcement officers have access to housing and 

improved roads. Old communication equipment must be modernized. Internet service gaps need to be closed. Law enforcement gear 

such as license plate readers, facial recognition software, and the 

MX-908 multi-mission portable mass spectrometers are needed to 

keep investigations effective at stopping illegal drugs from entering 

Native communities. 

Chair Gosar, Ranking Member Stansbury, and members of the 

Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to provide the 

Department’s views. We look forward to working with Congress to 

affirm and support tribal sovereignty and public safety within 

tribal communities. 

I am happy to answer any questions you may have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. LaCounte follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF DARRYL LACOUNTE, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF INDIAN

AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Good afternoon, Chair Gosar, Ranking Member Stansbury, and members of the 

Subcommittee. My name is Darryl LaCounte, I am the Director of the Bureau of 

Indian Affairs (BIA) at the U.S. Department of the Interior (Department). Thank 

you for the opportunity to discuss how the Bureau is addressing illegal drug 

trafficking in Native communities. 

The United States has a trust relationship with each of the 574 federally recognized Tribes, and their Tribal citizens. Through these relationships, the United 

States has charged itself with obligations of the highest responsibility and trust— 

including the obligation to protect the existence of Indian Tribes and their citizens. 

This obligation is at its highest when it comes to protecting the physical safety and 

well-being of Indian people within Indian Country. 
7 

The BIA plays a crucial role in meeting this obligation on behalf of the United 

States and partnering with other Federal agencies to continue meeting this 

important obligation. 

Current Actions 

Interagency coordination is key to eradicating the presence of illegal drug 

trafficking. The BIA currently works with other Federal agencies, such as the Drug 

Enforcement Administration (DEA), Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), Department of Homeland Security, Border Patrol, and the High Intensity Drug Trafficking 

Area task forces to combat illegal drug trafficking in Tribal communities. 

Our interagency investigations often target conspirators on and off Indian lands 

to effectively dismantle drug trafficking organizations. The BIA leverages internal 

intelligence analysis in cooperation with other Federal, State, and Tribal law 

enforcement agencies to combat the increasing amounts of controlled substances 

being trafficked into reservations through the United States Mail, Federal Express, 

private shipping companies, and Amtrak. 

The Division of Drug Enforcement (DDE) under the Office of Justice Services 

(OJS) has conducted numerous marijuana eradication operations working with state 

and federal agencies in California. In previous years, the DDE assisted with the 

eradication of hundreds of thousands of illegally grown plants and the dismantling 

of grow operations. 

OJS/DDE also conducts Mobile Enforcement Team (MET) operations on Reservations across the country. These deployments are in cooperation with the Tribes, 

States, and other Federal agencies. They involve the deployment of additional 

resources to a particular area to focus on the specifically identified issue in that 

area. These resources include additional agents, K9 teams, and specific equipment 

used to identify, gather, and present the necessary evidence to disrupt and dismantle drug trafficking in that area. Agents and officers conduct covert and overt 

drug investigations as appropriate for the area to remove the individuals involved 

and the drugs from the communities. The DDE also operates the largest nationwide 

network of drug enforcement agents dedicated solely to Indian Country. Table 1 and 

Table 2 demonstrate the impact that OJS DDE is making by intercepting illicit 

drugs in Indian Country. 

To maximize effectiveness, we also increased our involvement with individual 

Tribal law enforcement agencies to develop more cohesive responses to drug 

trafficking and drug enforcement needs. Drug trafficking and drug-related crime, 

including the ongoing opioid and methamphetamine crises, continue to escalate 

throughout Indian Country. Tribal officials have consistently called for action 

toward addressing an increasingly common cause of Indian Country crime by 

strengthening drug enforcement capabilities throughout the Nation. 

The BIA has partnered with Tribes to step up enforcement operations to combat 

the trafficking of illicit drugs in communities on reservations across the nation. We 

also train Tribal law enforcement officers on how to spot and root out drug 

traffickers that are living within their communities. 

The DDE assists Tribes with specific requests as well as general narcotics enforcement operations for individual Tribes. For Tribes that are located within Public Law 

83-280 (P.L. 280) states, the State has primary jurisdiction for enforcement, but this 

has not stopped the BIA from working with states and Tribes to reduce the presence 

of drug trafficking organizations operating in Indian Country. As part of our 

cohesive response to combatting drug trafficking, BIA maintains close contact with 

the United States Attorney Offices responsible for prosecuting the complex criminal 

organizations affecting Indian Country to strengthen each case’s credibility with the 

prosecutorial staff and strengthen relationships with local law enforcement. 

Our partnership with Tribes has led to the successful seizures of illegal drugs, 

including illicit fentanyl. On the morning of May 27, 2024, a BIA-DDE law enforcement officer stopped a vehicle for speeding on Interstate 40 on the Pueblo of 

Laguna, New Mexico. On probable cause, the DDE officer searched the vehicle and 

discovered approximately 311,800 fentanyl pills, valued at $12,472,000. Interagency 

coordination with Tribal law enforcement leads to successful operations. 

These operations have been successful in combatting illicit drug trafficking in 

Native communities, but Tribal law enforcement continues to face structural challenges. Specifically, the President’s FY 2025 Budget includes additional funding that 

would allow us to further strengthen these efforts and address these structural 

challenges. 
8 

Structural Challenges 

Jurisdiction 

Drug trafficking organizations, exploiting the myriad of jurisdictional issues 

surrounding Indian Country, target Native communities as delivery sites and for 

distribution of illegal drugs. 

The jurisdictional framework between Indian Tribes, the federal government, and 

states is complex, especially with respect to determining criminal jurisdiction. 

Congress and the courts have tied criminal jurisdiction to several factors to determine who exercises jurisdiction. These factors include type of crime, Indian or nonIndian status of the defendant and the victim, and whether or not the crime scene 

lies within Indian Country. Determining these factors is often a complex element 

that must be resolved before beginning an investigation. These factors impose significant transaction costs on officers, policymakers, attorneys, judges, and advocates 

working to address public safety challenges in Indian Country. 

Congress has legislated to clarify criminal jurisdiction in Indian Country over the 

years. These enactments include: 

• The 1968 amendments to P.L. 83-280 (P.L. 280), which required states to 

obtain the consent of the Indian Tribe prior to exercising criminal jurisdiction 

in Indian Country and permitted states to withdraw from the jurisdictional 

arrangement; 

• The 1991 amendments to the Indian Civil Rights Act, which affirmed Indian 

Tribes’ inherent criminal jurisdiction over non-member Indians; 

• The 2010 Tribal Law and Order Act, which enhanced the criminal sentencing 

authority of Tribal courts; 

• The 2013 reauthorization of the Violence Against Women Act, which 

recognized and affirmed Indian Tribes’ inherent jurisdiction to prosecute nonIndians for certain crimes committed in Indian Country; and 

• The 2022 reauthorization of the Violence Against Women Act, which 

expanded and reaffirmed Indian Tribes’ inherent jurisdiction to prosecute 

non-Indians for additional crimes committed in Indian Country. 

The successful implementation of these laws demonstrate that Indian Tribes and 

their law enforcement agencies are best suited to meet their public welfare needs. 

Despite these successes, additional jurisdictional cases have added more 

complexities to the framework. 

In McGirt v. Oklahoma, the U.S. Supreme Court held that the Muscogee Creek 

Nation continued to have criminal jurisdiction over all the land reserved for the 

Tribe in an 1866 Treaty. This decision was complicated by the Court’s decision in 

Castro-Huerta v. Oklahoma. In Castro-Huerta, the Supreme Court determined that 

the federal government and states have concurrent jurisdiction over non-Indians 

who commit crimes against Indians in Indian Country. This recognition of states’ 

expanded jurisdiction occurred without the consent of sovereign federally recognized 

Tribes, and without regard to the weight of the historical understanding of the 

limits on state authority in Indian Country, which Congress has relied upon in 

enacting legislation involving Indian Country jurisdiction, including 18 U.S.C. 

§ 1152. These decisions combined with P.L. 280 jurisdiction make Indian Country 

jurisdiction more complex, confusing, and ripe for unintended consequences. 

Several reports, such as the Not Invisible Act Commission Report, provide 

recommendations on how to address the jurisdictional complexities within Indian 

Country. These recommendations include: 

1. Amending P.L. 280 to allow Tribes to opt out of state jurisdiction; and 

2. Restoring jurisdiction to Tribes to be able to prosecute all crimes that occur 

on Tribal lands. 

Time and time again, Tribes have demonstrated that they can best meet the 

public welfare and safety needs of communities on their lands. As highlighted above, 

Congress has paired its legislation affirming Tribal jurisdiction and sovereignty with 

increased investments in Tribal justice systems. The Department supports energized 

investment in Tribal justice systems to address the structural challenges many 

Tribes face. 
9 

1 U.S. Dep’t of the Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs, Office of Justice Serv., Report to the 

Congress on Spending, Staffing, and Estimated Funding Costs for Public Safety and Justice 

Programs in Indian Country, 2021 (Feb. 2024), https://www.bia.gov/sites/default/files/ 

media_document/2021_tloa_report_final_508_compliant.pdf 2See 2021 TLOA report, footnote 1, p. 1. 

Staffing 

Congress has commissioned many reports to investigate the public safety concerns 

of Native communities and each report reaches the same conclusion: we need to 

address big structural challenges, such as staffing, to guarantee the safety of people 

in Tribal communities. 

Presently, the Department funds public safety and justice services for only 198 

out of the total 574 federally recognized Tribes. On March 4, 2024, the Department 

issued the ‘‘Report to the Congress on Spending, Staffing, and Estimated Funding 

Costs for Public Safety and Justice Programs in Indian Country, 2021’’ (2021 TLOA 

report) 1 which contains funding cost data for law enforcement in Indian Country. 

In 2021, total BIA spending for law enforcement was $256.4 million, $125 million 

for detention facilities, and $65.3 million for Tribal courts. The 2021 TLOA report 

estimates the total cost for public safety and justice programs is $1.7 billion for law 

enforcement programs, $284.2 million for existing detention centers, and $1.5 billion 

for Tribal courts. Thus, the total estimated unmet obligations identified in the 2021 

TLOA report for Tribal law enforcement, detention, and courts funding are just over 

$3 billion. The total estimated public safety and justice staffing need for Indian 

Country is 29,436 full time equivalent personnel. These numbers demonstrate the 

continued need for additional investment to improve the ability of Tribal public 

safety systems to fully serve their communities. 

Congress provided an additional $131.2 million for public safety and justice 

programs in Indian Country for fiscal years 2022 and 2023. However, the additional 

resources only moved the needle four percentage points above the 13 percent of the 

total need cited in the 2021 TLOA report.2

With our current budget, BIA is working to improve law enforcement operations 

by focusing on recruitment incentives like pay parity. To accomplish this, we completed an upgrade to our uniformed police officer positions during FY 2023, which 

increased career advancement opportunities, along with corresponding pay increases 

up to an additional $30,000 annually for BIA law enforcement officers. We are also 

utilizing available hiring flexibilities and recruitment and retention bonuses to 

increase current staffing levels and better support those interested in fulfilling the 

Department’s unique mission in Tribal communities. However, to support the additional pay raises in 2024 and 2025 plus increases in other fixed costs, the additional 

funding included in the 2025 Budget is critical. 

At the requested level for fiscal year 2025, the DDE currently funds 53 BIA criminal investigator positions and eight K-9 officer positions that are strategically 

located throughout the country to help mitigate the jurisdictional complexities and 

prosecutorial challenges that make Indian communities disproportionately vulnerable to systematic infiltration by trafficking organizations. Our drug agents also 

work alongside other federal partners on task forces pursuing highly technical 

investigations such as court ordered Title III wire intercepts, Organized Crime Drug 

Enforcement Task Forces cases, Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization 

cases, High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area cases, synthetic cannabinoid cases, and 

multi-jurisdictional cases. 

Despite these coordinated efforts, there is still a shortage of law enforcement on 

the ground. Understaffing results in a lack of timely responses to incidents, a perception that Tribal law enforcement does not care about the community, and it 

negatively impacts Tribal economies. Staffing shortages also have a notable impact 

on mental health and the overall well-being of Tribal law enforcement, which lead 

to resignations. 

Equipment and other resources 

International drug trafficking organizations often have access to sophisticated 

equipment and military-grade weapons to protect their operations. Accordingly, 

ensuring that Tribal law enforcement officers have the resources to address these 

issues, such as updated equipment, access to technology resources, and housing, is 

a top safety priority for Tribal law enforcement. Specifically, guaranteeing Tribal 

officers’ access to reliable, top-tier equipment like the MX908 multi-mission portable 

Mass spectrometer for the roadside identification of illegal drugs, as well as technology like license plate readers and facial recognition software, can greatly 

contribute to their effectiveness in the field. 
10 

Adequate housing and infrastructure is a challenge in many Tribal communities. 

We ask Tribal law enforcement officers to live within the communities they serve, 

but they face housing challenges such as cost, or they are unable to bring their families due to the size of the available residence. This is a barrier to retaining law 

enforcement employees. Furthermore, many Tribal communities and homes are 

located in remote areas with unpaved roads, thus public safety vehicles accumulate 

greater wear and tear and need more frequent routine replacement. 

Due to the remote nature of many Tribal communities, Tribal law enforcement 

officers often respond to high-risk calls alone and face greater rates of death in the 

line of duty. They heavily rely on field communications, like land mobile radios, to 

respond to calls and maintain officer safety. But many Tribal areas do not have sufficient radio coverage which delays response times, investigations, and jeopardizes 

officer safety. Expanded radio coverage to minimize ‘‘no coverage’’ areas and include 

video and data capabilities is vital to increasing officer safety. 

A number of reports commissioned by Congress affirm that these structural challenges make it harder to keep people safe in Indian Country. While the data conveys 

the seriousness of illegal drug trafficking in Indian Country, we are unable to measure the resulting impact to victims, affected families, and the already strained 

Tribal justice and social service systems in these communities. Addressing these 

challenges requires coordination across the federal government and with Tribal 

leaders to fulfill our trust responsibility. 

The Department continues to prioritize and reinforce Tribal sovereignty and selfdetermination by providing support and resources to improving public safety and 

combat illegal drug trafficking in Indian Country. 

Chair Gosar, Ranking Member Stansbury, and members of the Subcommittee, 

thank you for the opportunity to provide the Department’s views. We look forward 

to working with Congress to affirm and support Tribal sovereignty and public safety 

within Tribal communities. I am happy to answer any questions that you may have. 
11 

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD TO MR. DARRYL LACOUNTE, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Mr. LaCounte did not submit responses to the Committee by the 

appropriate deadline for inclusion in the printed record. 

Questions Submitted by Representative Gosar 

Question 1. Tribes have expressed the lack of trust between tribes and federal law 

enforcement. How has the BIA been working to address this, and what more can be 

done to improve working relationships? 

Question 2. In the last hearing, the tribal leaders expressed disappointment with 

the apparent lack of interest in their needs and concerns by their federal partners, 

even a desire to learn about the tribes they were assigned to support. Do you think 

that a program to recruit tribal members into Federal Law Enforcement would 

improve the relationship between Federal agencies and the tribes? 

Question 3. During our April 10, 2024, hearing, President Jeffrey Stiffarm of Fort 

Belknap Indian Community stated that ‘‘what little officers we do have, they have 

been trying to be proactive without any help from the BIA, without any help from 

the FBI, without any help from the Border Patrol or the DEA.’’ Are you satisfied with 

the current level of federal law enforcement activity across Indian Country? Please 

explain. 

Question 4. During that same hearing Councilman Bryce Kirk of Fort Peck Tribes, 

that BIA has repeatedly failed to meet their federal trust responsibility to provide 

sufficient funding for law enforcement for Fort Peck Tribes. How is BIA working to 

meet the trust responsibilities with Tribes across the nation, so they have the 

necessary law enforcement resources to push back against the cartels? 

Question 5. During the Committee’s FY25 Budget Hearing for BIA, Assistant 

Secretary Newland briefly described the ‘jurisdictional maze’ that exists between the 

different levels of law enforcement. Can you provide some examples of when this 

‘jurisdictional maze’ has hindered law enforcement efforts on Indian lands? 

Question 6. What suggestions does BIA have for resolving long-standing 

jurisdictional issues to bolster the authority of tribal law enforcement agencies to 

address the cartel activity on their lands? 

Question 7. As you know, Special Law Enforcement Commission (SLEC) 

agreements from BIA are required for tribal or local law enforcement officers to 

enforce federal criminal laws in Indian Country. However, the long process of 

obtaining and renewing an SLEC agreement is reportedly a barrier for Tribes to 

gaining this tool. Does the burdensome process for obtaining and renewing an SLEC 

agreement hamper tribal law enforcement’s ability to address the cartels’ invasion 

onto tribal lands? 
12 

Question 8. What steps do you believe are necessary for the SLEC process to be 

improved? 

Questions Submitted by Representative Carl 

Question 1. Could you provide an update for the Committee on BIA’s pay parity 

initiative, that intends to bring BIA law enforcement pay levels in line with other 

federal law enforcement agencies? And how else is BIA working to address the 

recruitment and retention issue? 

Question 2. How has the recruitment and retention of federal law enforcement, not 

just BIA but across all agencies, impacting the ability of Tribes to address the cartel’s 

presence and the fentanyl crisis on Indian lands? 

Dr. GOSAR. Thank you, Director. I am now going to recognize 

Members for their questions. First, the gentleman from Montana, 

Mr. Rosendale. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank 

you for holding this hearing today. 

The Biden administration’s open border policies are wreaking 

havoc across the entire nation. And this isn’t political, this is just 

a fact. This is especially evident by the surge in addiction and 

crime in Montana’s reservations fueled by cartel activities. 

I want to thank our Montana-based witnesses for this panel and 

then coming forward to share their insights and firsthand experiences regarding this alarming trend. 

The continuing cycle of addiction, crime, and loss of life in Indian 

Country must be halted, and I hope that this hearing will force this 

Administration to protect our nation and work with our tribes to 

repel these dangerous cartels and their impact. 

Moreover, I hope the fact we are having yet another hearing on 

this issue of vital importance will serve as a much-needed wakeup call to my colleagues across the aisle, helping them to recognize 

the unconscionable effects of President Biden’s open border policies. 

These policies have impacted not only border communities, but the 

entire nation. 

Mr. LaCounte, how many agents do you currently have working 

in Montana? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. Congressman, we have numerous tribes that 

have contracted the program: Fort Peck, Fort Belknap, Blackfeet. 

So, our agents are basically focused on Crow and Northern 

Cheyenne, with a presence at the regional office there in Billings. 

It is a tough number to come to, but I would say roughly 40 that 

aren’t tribal at this point. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. How many of these agents’ main priority is 

preventing cartel activities or drug trafficking in Indian Country? 

Out of the 40, how many of them is it their exclusive job to work 

on drug trafficking or the cartels? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. They are not focused specifically on cartels, but 

they are focused on drug activity. That would be roughly five 

agents. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. OK. What specific actions is your agency taking 

to ensure that these communities remain safe from cartel 

activities? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. We are doing any and everything we can with 

the resources we have to stop drugs from getting there and making 
13 

arrests where applicable, if we can do that. And we are assisting 

tribes as best we can to do the same things with the programs I 

mentioned, Congressman, that are contracted. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. Do you believe that more cooperation between 

Federal law enforcement and the tribal law enforcement would 

help with effective enforcement and reduction in crime? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I do. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. OK. What can be done to create more 

cooperation between the tribal community and the Federal law 

enforcement agencies in order to help this relationship? 

What can we do to improve that relationship so that these folks 

are working together? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I don’t know if I am supposed to go down this 

road as the director, but additional funding would always help. 

The pushback between BIA and oftentimes tribal programs is 

they don’t think we are funding them enough, while in fact we 

have limited resources, and we fund as best we can. 

And other than that, address the jurisdictional issues that the 

Chairman brought up earlier, to where it is much easier for officers 

on the ground to know whether they have jurisdiction or not. 

I recently met with the cadets at our training facility in Artesia, 

New Mexico. And my message to them was, look, I know it is a 

scary thing, and you are not lawyers, but when there is a crime 

committed, I am going to back you if you do the right thing as a 

law enforcement officer, even if you are somewhat out of your jurisdiction. But that is a real serious issue, the jurisdictional issue, 

Congressman. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. Couldn’t we help resolve some of these jurisdictional issues by, again, having some kind of better, closer cooperation between the Federal agencies and the tribal agencies so that 

they are communicating well? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. Absolutely. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. And that doesn’t cost money. That takes time. 

That takes commitment. That is not about money. And if there are 

any agreements that need to be put in place, those are the kinds 

of things that we need to be talking about. 

Mr. Chair, I see my time has expired, I yield back. 

Dr. GOSAR. I would just like to add, we have to find the money 

somewhere. And I would ask you specifically, where should that 

money go? What specific account would that money go to? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. That money would be spread across all of law 

enforcement throughout Indian Country, including drug enforcement, but we have serious problems on reservations, as well, with 

domestic violence. And drugs are a serious issue. 

And as Congressman Rosendale probably knows, I used to be the 

regional director in the state of Montana. And when I left to take 

this job in 2018, over 60 percent of the babies born were meth 

babies. And I don’t know if throwing money at that is going to 

solve it, but not throwing money at it certainly isn’t going to. 

Dr. GOSAR. Right. The gentleman from Oregon, Mr. Bentz, is 

recognized for his 5 minutes. 

Mr. BENTZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for the invitation 

to participate today in this important hearing. 
14 

There is no doubt at all about the horrific consequences of the 

open border policy. This is just one of them. 

One of the situations back in Oregon where I am from is the 

inability of local law enforcement, such as the sheriff’s office, 

within the county where certain ones of the reservations might be 

located, for them to exercise power or authority over those on the 

reservation. And I am pretty sure this is kind of what you were 

hinting at on page 3 of your testimony, where you say exploiting 

the myriad of jurisdictional issues is a challenge. And I agree. 

I called my brother, who used to be the county sheriff back in 

Oregon in the county in which I live, a big county. The one he was 

in was 10,000 square miles, and there were actually two reservations there. But they were not welcome to help on the reservations. 

The tribal police, you would think, would take care of the problem, 

but there are two issues there. 

One you have kind of alluded to, the numbers of tribal police is 

modest. I think the national average is about one tribal police 

person, actually, it is 0.7 per 1,000. And nationwide, it should be 

three. So, there are too few. 

The other problem that appears to be a challenge is keeping 

those people that do become tribal police officers working. And 

there seems to be a lack of stability sometimes in tribal government that leads to those folks not sticking around. 

Perhaps you can address that issue. Do you have a study or 

something that indicates how long tribal police officers remain 

employed? 

And I am going to hope that you don’t go back to money every 

time there is a problem. So, tell me, does anything that I have said 

ring any bells of recognition? 

Let’s start with the lack of recognition, perhaps, by tribes of 

other law enforcement agencies who are driving around, deputy 

sheriffs perhaps, or state police, and those folks not having appropriate jurisdictional authority to step in. Thus, the cartels see 

tribal reservations as opportunity locations because there is not 

enough law enforcement there. 

So, comment on that first, if you could. 

Mr. LACOUNTE. At your wishes, I will not mention funding. 

Mr. BENTZ. Well, wait, look, you mentioned the word. Last year, 

or the year before last, I think there was $700 million allocated to 

the tribes. I know it is not the $3 billion mentioned. Congress simply appropriated funds. Tribes should be allowed flexibility on how 

to utilize and invest those funds in their communities. It is not for 

DOI to now restrict how tribes use those funds. 

It says here, the bill’s language, $772 million almost $800 

million, is designated for tribal government services such as public 

safety and justice. Where did that money go? As long as we are 

talking about funding. 

Mr. LACOUNTE. It went to the tribes. 

Mr. BENTZ. OK, that was almost a billion dollars. About $800 

million. Did that do no good? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. Well, every little bit does good, but—— 

Mr. BENTZ. Wait, wait. A little bit? $800 million. You spread it 

across the nation. How much did each tribe get? 
15 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I don’t know exactly. I would have to do the 

math. There are 198 facilities where we or the tribes provide 

Federal—— 

Mr. BENTZ. OK, well, did it help? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. Of course it helps. 

Mr. BENTZ. How much did it help? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. As much as that amount can possibly help. 

Mr. BENTZ. Let’s go back. And maybe the simplest question 

would be, have you or are you aware of the fact that certain tribes 

are not enthusiastic about allowing local law enforcement to 

enforce laws on reservations? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. Yes. 

Mr. BENTZ. And does this allow, then, less law enforcement 

activity than perhaps should be there? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. Tribes are sovereign nations. 

Mr. BENTZ. Well, let’s stop there. Are you saying, then, that the 

tribes have made a decision to allow less law enforcement than 

could be the case by simply saying to those who were already there, 

engaged in the law enforcement business to help? Is that what you 

are saying? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I am saying I don’t know the specifics of the situation, but if it is a tribal law enforcement agency and they said you 

are not welcome, that would be the tribe making that decision. 

That certainly would not be the Bureau of Indian Affairs. 

Mr. BENTZ. And I think you said that that indeed is the case in 

different reservations across the nation, where they are not 

welcoming in an already available law enforcement help because 

they don’t want it. Is that correct? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. That would be my assumption. I don’t ask them 

why they choose not to do that. We encourage them to actually 

enter into MOUs and MOAs with the local law enforcement to 

where they can do cross-jurisdiction. Whether they choose to do it 

or not, that is up to the tribe. 

Mr. BENTZ. It is up to them. 

Thank you, I yield back. 

Dr. GOSAR. I thank the gentleman. The gentleman from Arizona, 

Mr. Crane, is recognized. 

Mr. CRANE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. LaCounte, thank you so much for coming today. We 

appreciate it. 

I am proud to represent over half the tribes in Arizona. I also 

serve on the House Homeland Security Committee. And I hear 

every single day about the crime and tragedy in my district that 

are a direct result of this Administration’s border policies. 

BIA’s Office of Justice Service has law enforcement authority on 

tribal lands in my district. Sir, is it true that OJS currently has 

a vacancy rate of 30 percent for all positions? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. That is roughly close, yes. 

Mr. CRANE. Why do you think that is, sir? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. Recruitment is hard, very hard. And the background investigations that I spoke to take time. Oftentimes, we 

select somebody and by the time we get through that, they have 

found another job because they need to go to work. 
16 

But we are not the only ones suffering from lack of law enforcement officers. That is a nationwide crisis at the moment. But we 

are certainly doing everything we can to combat it because we 

recognize more bodies, more cops on the ground is a good thing. 

Mr. CRANE. Yes, absolutely, sir. Do you think that the Biden 

administration has their priorities straight when it comes to 

protecting the homeland and fulfilling government’s trust and 

responsibility to protect the tribes and their citizens? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. The Administration has deferred to me on just 

about everything, and I have been doing this 36 years. I would like 

to think that is letting us do what we need to do. 

Mr. CRANE. My question is, do you think that the Biden 

administration is doing a good job prioritizing the safety of everyone in this country, including the tribes, especially when it comes 

to the southern border, sir? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I am not a border expert, No. 1. 

I can’t speak to the rest of the nation, but through the BIA they 

have been nothing but supportive. And the budget increases that 

we have received lately have all been for public safety and justice. 

Mr. CRANE. Sir, I know you claim that you are not a border 

security expert, and I can appreciate that. But I can also tell, just 

by listening to you talk today, that you do have common sense. You 

know what has been going on at the southern border since this Administration took control. And I know you know that is affecting 

tribes all across the nation. Would you say that is correct, sir? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I would say that it is correct, but it was also an 

issue before. 

Mr. CRANE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. LACOUNTE. We have been dealing with cartels long before 

this Administration, long before the last administration. 

Mr. CRANE. Absolutely. We have always had things coming over 

the border that are unsavory. But I think everybody in this chamber knows that it has been skyrocketing under this Administration. 

Are you aware that, I think it was today, Joe Biden signed an 

Executive Order that will dramatically tighten the border? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I saw it on the news this morning. 

Mr. CRANE. Do you think that is interesting, seeing as how this 

Administration has been saying that they couldn’t do anything 

about it, and it was Congress that wouldn’t do anything about it? 

Do you find it interesting that Biden reversed Trump’s Executive 

Orders? That was one of the first things he did when he got into 

office. And now that it is right before an election year, he just 

signed an Executive Order to tighten up how many people were 

allowed to come through that southern border? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I haven’t even seen the Executive Order. I will 

say that, if it helps us in my lane, which is Indian affairs, I am 

very happy. But I haven’t read it. I can’t speak to it. 

Mr. CRANE. Yes, well, let’s speak about generalities. Do you 

think it is interesting that President Biden just signed an Executive Order right before an election, when this whole time he has 

been saying, oh, it is Congress, it is Congress, they need to act and 

secure the southern border? 
17 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I really try to stay out of politics. I have served 

in both administrations, and it doesn’t serve the director well to go 

down any of those roads. 

Mr. CRANE. I hear you, sir, and I appreciate that. I just do think 

it is rich, though, that when I listen to Ms. Stansbury and I listen 

to you, and you talk about how we need increased funding and 

resources, I noticed that you guys didn’t mention the policies. You 

guys didn’t mention the policy changes that are driving up the 

amount of resources and funding that have to go into combating 

the fentanyl. 

The MS-13 gang members coming over the southern border, the 

millions of extra illegal aliens, the vast increase of individuals on 

the terror watch list that have come over this Administration. So, 

it is kind of hard for us to have a real conversation when we are 

not having a real conversation about everything that is going on. 

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. 

Dr. GOSAR. I thank the gentleman. The gentlelady from New 

Mexico is recognized, Ms. Stansbury. 

Ms. STANSBURY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

I find it extraordinarily distasteful and disrespectful when we 

call hearings about tribal issues and Members of Congress use the 

space to talk about policy and political issues that are not about 

the issue at hand. I think it is disrespectful to our tribes. I think 

it is disrespectful to the leaders. I think it is disrespectful to the 

folks who serve our tribal governments. And I would like to, for 

one, actually get back to the issue at hand. 

I have heard some comments, questions about how tribal law 

enforcement works this morning. And Mr. Chairman, I would love 

to work with you on a bipartisan basis to maybe do a teach-in for 

Members about how tribal law enforcement works. There have 

been a lot of questions about how funding works, about jurisdictional issues work, about how legal issues work. These are incredibly complex issues, and it is important to have a hearing about it. 

But I think a setting in which we could really get in the weeds 

would be very helpful. 

But I do want to make a comment because there have been a few 

comments this morning that said, tell us how we can fix the issue 

without talking about funding. Well, that is like saying how do we 

stop a fire without talking about water. Because the real issue is 

that we have been underfunding law enforcement and support for 

our tribes since treaties and trust responsibilities began between 

the U.S. Government and these Tribal Nations. 

So, we hear it literally every single day. Those of us who work 

with tribal governments, who work with our Tribal Nations are 

telling us, ‘‘We need water to put out the fire.’’ And the water in 

this case is the resources. So, I am going to just use a few quick 

examples of tribes that I interact with on a day-to-day basis. 

The Navajo Nation, their Tribal Council just came to visit me a 

few days ago. They would like to renegotiate their law enforcement 

contract because they are underfunded. They do not have enough 

money through their contract to pay enough officers to patrol each 

of the areas that they need. That is, in part, just the history of that 

contract, but also because the population is growing because the 
18 

need is growing. You need water to put out the fire. That is how 

tribes use the money. They need it to hire law enforcement. 

But I also think it is important that we talk a little bit about 

these jurisdictional issues. Tribes are sovereign nations. They 

decide what happens on their lands. And I think it is important to 

take a moment because, Director, you brought it up a couple of 

times here today. It is up to a Tribal Nation if they decide they 

want to do direct service, they want to contract for the money, they 

want to hire their own officers, they want to have extra BIA 

officers on tribal lands. It is really up to each of these sovereign 

nations and their relationship with you all. 

But it is also up to them to decide whether or not they want to 

cross-deputize, whether they want to work with county law enforcement, they want to work with local municipals outside the reservation, they want to invite state police onto their reservation because 

they are their lands. 

And what we have seen, I think, because there is a lack of understanding of tribal sovereignty, is that there has been a systematic 

effort for the last several decades to undermine tribal sovereignty, 

especially around law enforcement. And it is dangerous, and 

resulted just 2 years ago in the Castro-Huerta decision that the 

Supreme Court handed down, and which tribes across the country 

are asking us to address right now. 

So, I wonder, Director, I am grateful to hear that you served at 

a regional level. Talk to us a little bit about, at the regional level, 

working in the BIA bureaucracy with our Tribal Nations, about 

these sovereignty and jurisdictional issues. What can we do to: (1) 

make sure more resources are reaching tribes at the ground; and 

(2) that BIA is doing its part to address these jurisdictional issues 

and help support tribes as they seek help and accountability? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I would say that BIA and tribal law enforcement 

agencies are at the bottom of the pecking order on the Federal law 

enforcement. We don’t get the respect that we deserve, and the 

tribes certainly don’t get the respect they deserve. We are oftentimes up to their whim, what they want to pursue, not what the 

tribe wants to pursue and not what we want to pursue, but what 

they think is important because we don’t take these cases to 

Federal court. That is another agency within the government. So, 

that makes it difficult. 

As for putting the fire out, you are absolutely correct. I have 

been around a long time, and I figured out early in my career here 

is what I am going to get. I am going to have to figure out how 

to make it work. It would be great at one time to not have to think 

that way, and maybe I am not the right guy for the job because 

I have always thought that way, and it is like, yes, we are at 13 

percent, what the hell can we do? And I will leave it at that. 

Ms. STANSBURY. Thank you, Director, and thank you, Mr. 

Chairman. I hope we can work together to put the fire out. 

Dr. GOSAR. See, that is why we wanted the FBI and Homeland 

Security here, because we are chasing our tail around and around 

and around we go. Because if you can’t talk to each other, you can’t 

come up with solutions. Would you agree with that, Director? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. Yes. 
19 

Dr. GOSAR. I think the other thing is we have to streamline the 

process, but we also have to have a conversation. What does sovereignty mean? How is it enacted? All those have to have some 

similarities in regards to the tribes. Yes, they own their land, but 

they have to also have to be held to stewardship of those funds, 

even better than even the Federal Government. The Federal 

Government is horrible at that. 

A question: What role on these reservations do the drug 

traffickers play in this crisis? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. The drug traffickers? 

Dr. GOSAR. Yes. 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I am not quite sure I understand your question, 

but I am going to give it a shot. 

Regardless of whether they are a cartel or a local mom-and-pop 

organization trying to contaminate their own damn communities, 

deadly drugs on Indian reservations are horrible. But when you get 

an organized cartel, for instance, they are pretty good at what they 

do. And it has a serious impact on many reservations. I can’t say 

all, but you never hear a tribe say, hey, we don’t have any cartel 

problems. You hear them say we have a problem. 

So, it plays a significant role. But, again, drugs can come from 

anywhere. They just come in normally larger volumes from the 

cartels. 

Dr. GOSAR. Right. So, now you see somebody possibly coming into 

this country legally, and they travel all the way through and 

deliver drugs. Does Homeland Security or the FBI have a watch 

list of known traffickers? They have something. And do they share 

it with the local authorities? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I do not know the answer to that, Congressman. 

Dr. GOSAR. OK. Would you get that for us? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. Yes. 

Dr. GOSAR. I think it makes a big difference, because if we can 

preclude people to look for these individuals, it makes it a whole 

lot easier than trying to figure out if you remember that person. 

Can identified drug traffickers be banned from entering the 

United States? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I think I heard your question, and certainly any 

drug trafficker should be banned from the United States. 

Absolutely. 

Dr. GOSAR. What are the protocols across Federal law enforcement agencies to ensure that the information each has about a 

missing person is shared with tribal law enforcement? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. [No response.] 

Dr. GOSAR. How do we make sure that people that are kidnapped 

or taken, how do we share that information? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. [No response.] 

Dr. GOSAR. See, we get the same disconnect. I mean, Director, no 

pun to you, but you should have had two other partners here. You 

should have had the FBI and Homeland Security right here. The 

briefing does us no good just by themselves. I want to see the interaction between you, the tribes, them, and the Homeland Security. 

That makes more sense to me. Put everybody in a room and figure 

out what the problem is. 
20 

But this doesn’t make a lot of sense, because we are going 

around, and around, and around, and I feel sorry for you because 

you are put in a position where there is no winning. When you 

don’t have winning, you don’t have any hope. And I am sad to say 

that that is kind of what we apply on to our Native friends, is 

exactly that. 

I think this is a Catch-22, but I also think there is a light at the 

end of the tunnel. I think the tribes can show us a way to get back 

to a healthy community, a law-abiding community. And I think 

they have the ability to do that. Now we have to figure out how 

do we get those resources to them. How do we develop that? 

It may take some streamlining of the process. We may have to 

hire some within. I don’t know what the whole answer is, but I 

think what we have you and the tribes in a pickle with, ultimately, 

is this around and around and here we go again, I am sad to say. 

I would love to work with you, and I think there will be plenty of 

things to be able to do. 

So, I want to ask you one more question. What was the one 

question that you wanted to have asked of you, and what was the 

answer? 

Mr. LACOUNTE. I didn’t approach it in that direction. If you are 

on this side of the table, you come in trying to anticipate what you 

are going to get. I appreciate your statement that you have hope, 

because I too have hope, even as dire as it looks right now. 

I guess if there were one question I would like asked, it would 

be what can we do to further strengthen or embellish this notion 

of tribal sovereignty, and how can we get the tribes the respect 

that they deserve policing their own communities, making them 

safer? If you have a home you don’t feel safe in, that is not a home. 

So, I don’t know what the answer would be, but I would love to 

have that question. 

I guess my answer would be you have to help us. We have tried. 

Public Law 93-638 has been around a long time, and I have been 

through it in my 36 years, the progression of it. And it is better, 

but it still needs to give these tribes the respect that they deserve, 

just like states are given that respect. It is their home. It is their 

land. Who are we to tell them how to act and what is best for 

them? 

So, I hope that answers that question. 

Dr. GOSAR. It does. I appreciate your candor. I thank the witness, 

Director, for your candor and your answers and your valuable testimony, and Members for their questions. 

We will now take a brief recess before beginning our second 

panel. During that time I invite all the witnesses to sit and get 

ready at the table for the hearing to proceed. And with that, there 

will be questions, Director, coming to you from the Members, and 

we will have them on a timely basis. Thank you very much. We 

adjourn temporarily. 

[Recess.] 

Dr. GOSAR. I will now introduce the witnesses for our second 

panel. We have Mr. Joshua Roberge, Chief of Police, Fort Belknap 

Indian Community, Harlem, Montana, thank you for coming; Ms. 

Stacy Zinn, former Resident in Charge, Rocky Mountain Division, 

Drug Enforcement Administration, Billings, Montana; and Lieuten-
21 

ant John Nores, Jr., retired, Special Operations Marijuana Enforcement Team, California Department of Fish and Wildlife, Morgan 

Hill, California. An amazing story here. 

Let me remind the witnesses that under Committee Rules, you 

must limit your oral statements to 5 minutes, but your entire statement will appear in the record. 

I will now recognize Mr. Roberge for your 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF JOSHUA ROBERGE, CHIEF OF POLICE, FORT 

BELKNAP INDIAN COMMUNITY, HARLEM, MONTANA 

Mr. ROBERGE. Chairman Gosar, Ranking Member Stansbury, 

Congressman Rosendale, and members of the Subcommittee, my 

name is Josh Roberge. I have previously served 8 years in the 

United States military. And after being honorably discharged, I 

now serve as the Chief of Police for the Fort Belknap Indian 

Community. I am a member of the Assiniboine Nation, and appreciate the opportunity to testify about the impacts of drug cartels 

targeting Indian Country, and specifically the Fort Belknap Indian 

Community. 

The Fort Belknap Indian Reservation is located in north central 

Montana. It is comprised of 652,000 acres, almost as large as the 

state of Rhode Island. We have nearly 7,000 members living on or 

near the reservation. The reservation is 40 miles south of the 

Canadian border, and we have Federal funding for nine, that is 

pushing it, law enforcement officers. With nine, that offers two to 

three officers per shift on a good day, covering 1,014 square miles. 

As a combat veteran, I can attest to you guys right now that we 

have a war going on on U.S. soil. We are fighting these people. 

Whether that is directly or indirectly, they are committing violent 

acts against tribal citizens and U.S. citizens here. So, with that, I 

am here to offer six recommendations to possibly find a solution to 

this: 

(1) Expand tribal criminal jurisdiction in Indian Country. 

(2) Increase funding. I know it keeps getting brought up quite a 

bit, but the reality of the situation that we are in, we don’t see any 

other way. We literally receive $1.3 million a year for our budget. 

That is ridiculous. It has been the same, give or take $100,000, 

since 1997. We are fighting a war that we are severely losing. 

Anyway, back to our recommendations. Increased funding for law 

enforcement and U.S. attorneys. There is a lot of frustration with 

U.S. attorneys. Do they prosecute? They don’t prosecute. They want 

to keep their successful conviction rate, so they decline. The fact of 

the matter is we have two U.S. attorneys covering seven federally 

recognized Indian reservations in Montana. You imagine the cases 

that they are getting on their desks. 

We average 100 felony, not misdemeanor, arrests a month on our 

reservation out of 7,000 people, four murders in 3 months for our 

population. All of this stuff can be directly correlated, the increase 

in violent crime you see everywhere can be directly correlated to 

dangerous drugs and drug trafficking, human trafficking, child sex 

crimes, adult sex crimes, murders, all of that stuff. It is all directly 

correlated to dangerous drugs. 

These drugs, because of the stop of the sale of over-the-counter 

Sudafed and stuff like that, these drugs are produced in superlabs 
22 

across the border, and then they are brought here to the United 

States. So, we are seeing this increase in violent crime and all of 

this bad stuff that is happening: dangerous drugs, drug distribution, and an unsecure southern border. 

Moving on, (3) Coordination of Federal services. 

And obviously, (4) Secure the southern border. It is coming 

across the border freely. This is ridiculous. We are 40 miles south 

of the Canadian border, and we have individuals up there who are 

associated with either the Jalisco or the Sinaloa that can’t speak 

a lick of English that are carrying firearms, trafficking humans, 

and committing murders as recently as 2 months ago, 40 miles 

south of the Canadian border for drug-related crimes. 

(5) Congress needs to pass legislation for more severe punishments on drugs, such as fentanyl and methamphetamine. Nobody 

is getting prosecuted on this stuff. And if we work together to take 

somebody down, another one pops up. This thing is like a hydra. 

You cut the head off of one, another one pops up. 

The biggest thing is the Federal system hasn’t caught up with 

fentanyl yet. They have with methamphetamine. The mandatory 

sentencing minimum or the threshold for a 5-year minimum for 

sentencing on the Fed side would be 5 grams of methamphetamine. 

It is still 10 grams, to my understanding, for fentanyl. There are 

about 10 fentanyl pills, you guys are familiar with fentanyl pills, 

there are about 10 fentanyl pills per gram. It is about 100 fentanyl 

pills before you get a 5-year mandatory minimum, so there needs 

to be legislative action to figure out some solutions here. 

(6) Implement the 2023 Not Invisible Act Commission Report 

recommendations. 

I have about a minute 20 left, so I will kind of specify a little 

bit more on some of the things that I am talking about here. 

Once again, congressional funding, increased law enforcement 

funding, increased United States Attorney’s Office funding, Indian 

Country aid to protect our homeland and save lives. 

Two, secure that southern border. Tighten international borders. 

Stop the drugs. There is more that is coming across than that. 

There is a war going on right here, right now on U.S. soil. And I 

think that, as citizens of the United States, we need to open our 

eyes. There is stuff happening here that we are losing, and it is not 

just in Montana and Fort Belknap. It is everywhere. They are 

targeting Indian communities because of a jurisdictional loophole. 

And I would like to comment on a few things where we choose 

not to allow other law enforcement agencies, but with us in 

Montana, we welcome it. We have MOUs and we work well with 

the Montana Highway Patrol in our surrounding counties and 

other state agencies. The problem with this jurisdictional loophole, 

and this will be the last thing, is the county and the state, where 

we ask for their help, and these cartel members or non-Indian 

members are coming in and victimizing or committing felonious 

offenses on the reservation. We are calling the state for help, the 

county for help. We are bringing them out, and they are arguing 

that it is the FBI’s jurisdiction. 

The problem with that is the FBI doesn’t arrest. They don’t PC 

arrest, and the AUSA isn’t allowing these PC arrests or these 

offenses to be complained in. So, what we are running into is we 
23 

are seeing months while we wait for a warrant of arrest to be 

issued for either a grand jury indictment or an indictment, whatever, and these people are allowed to continue to victimize 

members of our community. 

There is a jurisdictional loophole, and they know that, and they 

are exploiting it, and that is why they are at reservations first, 

along with everything else that you guys have been hearing. This 

is an issue. 

Thank you for your time. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Roberge follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF JOSHUA ROBERGE, CHIEF OF POLICE, ON BEHALF OF THE

ASSINIBOINE AND GROS VENTRE TRIBES OF THE FORT BELKNAP INDIAN COMMUNITY

Chairman Gosar, Ranking Member Stansbury, Congressman Rosendale, 

Congressman Zinke, and Members of the Subcommittee. My name is Josh Roberge, 

I previously served 8 years in the United States Army, and after being honorably 

discharged, I now serve as the Chief-of-Police of the Assiniboine (Nakoda) and Gros 

Ventre (Aaniih) Nations of the Fort Belknap Indian Community. I am a Member 

of the Assiniboine Nation and appreciate the opportunity testify today about the 

impacts of drug cartels targeting Indian Country- and specifically the Fort Belknap 

Indian Community. 

The Fort Belknap Reservation is located in north central Montana and is 

comprised of 652,000 acres (1,014 square miles) almost as large as the State of 

Rhode Island, and has nearly 7,000 members living on or near our Reservation. Fort 

Belknap is 40 miles South of the Canadian Border. We have federal funding for 9 

Law Enforcement Officers which offers 2–3 Officers per shift. 

As a Combat Veteran, I can attest: Fort Belknap is at war with drugs! I am here 

to offer 6 recommendations: 

1. Expand Tribal Criminal Jurisdiction in Indian Country 

2. Increase Funding for Law Enforcement and U.S. Attorneys 

3. Coordination of Federal Services 

4. Secure the Southern Border of the United States 

5. Congress needs to pass legislation for more severe punishments on drugs such 

as fentanyl and methamphetamine 

6. Implement the 2023 Not Invisible Act Commission Report Recommendations 

The U.S. Supreme Court’s Oliphant decision limits the ability of Native Nations 

to prosecute non-Indians. Oliphant v. Suquamish Indian Tribe, 435 U.S. 191 (1978). 

Currently Tribal Governments across Indian Country do not have criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians committing drug-related crimes in Indian Country. When a 

non-Indian commits a crime, our law enforcement is required to contact either the 

county and/or the FBI. 

A few weeks ago, we had a non-Indian drug dealer dealing and living on our 

Reservation. In the course of the Tribal Law Enforcement investigation, this nonIndian drug dealer was found with a large amount of methamphetamine. He had 

a scale, drug paraphernalia, had beaten a Tribal Member, and has a history of committing other drug-crimes. The local County was called, as well as the FBI. Due to 

the on-going criminal behavior of this non-Indian drug dealer, the Tribal Court 

issued a preliminary Order to Exclude him from our Reservation as per the Fort 

Belknap Indian Community’s Constitution. The non-Indian Drug Dealer violated 

this within the week of the issuance of the order. 

On May 22, 2024, our Tribal Council had an Exclusion Hearing to require the 

non-Indian drug dealer to be excluded from our Reservation indefinitely. During the 

Hearing, the non-Indian drug dealer stood before our Tribal Council and boasted: 

‘‘YOU HAVE NO JURISDICTION OVER ME. THE COUNTY MIGHT, THE FEDS 

MIGHT, BUT YOU DON’T.’’ He further boasted that when he violated the Court’s 

Order, he did so by driving onto our Reservation on a ‘‘State Highway’’ implying 

that our Tribal Council had no authority to exclude him because he was on a State 

Highway driving on our Reservation. 

As this situation demonstrates, these drug cartels have targeted reservation communities because of the rural terrain, history of community addiction, and limited 

law enforcement resources. Cartels are specifically targeting Indian Country 
24 

because of a dangerous combination of under-resourced law enforcement, legal loopholes, sparsely populated communities, and exorbitant profits, and it is devastating 

Tribal reservations. Profits for these cartels soar the farther they get from the 

southern border. A fentanyl pill that costs less than $1.00 in Mexico and southern 

states, can go for over $100 on our Reservation. 

As the drug cartels seep deeper into Indian Country, they know of the limited 

resources that we have. Montana is 147,040 square miles—slightly larger than 

Japan. It is the 4th largest State in the United States behind, Texas, Alaska and 

California. In 2024, it is reported that only 20 DEA Agents cover the entire state. 

The DEA sends drug testing to their Crime Lab located in California and the test 

results are not known for 8 months or more after the crimes are committed, which 

also limits speedy-trials. The cartels know this—so it is easy for them to attempt 

to take-over reservations. 

On April 23, 2024, our Tribal Council met with Jesse Laslovich and Amanda 

Myers with the United States Attorney’s Office. The Fort Belknap Indian Community Council requested that Mr. Laslovich and the DEA attempt to work with the 

Montana State Crime Lab in order to receive faster drug test results and more prosecutions. As to the Montana United States Attorney’s Office, currently there are a 

total of 6 Assistance United States Attorneys (AUSA) in Montana—3 are located in 

Great Falls (4 hours from Fort Belknap), 2 in Billings (3 hours from Fort Belknap), 

and 1 in Helena (4 hours from Fort Belknap)—2 of these 6 ASUAs are assigned to 

serve all of Indian Country in Montana. And the last federal budget cuts blocked 

a proposed AUSA Prosecutor from Montana. 

It was reported to our Tribal Council that prior to AUSA Jesse Laslovich’s 

appointment in Montana, there was 1 violent crime case prosecuted from Fort 

Belknap prior to his arrival, 3 violent crimes prosecuted the year he arrived, 11 

violent crimes prosecuted the next year and it was reported that they currently have 

7 violent crime cases pending prosecution. While the United States Attorney’s Office 

attempts to meet with our Law Enforcement monthly, our Tribes very rarely see 

any FBI presence. There appears to be an ongoing disconnect between the FBI and 

AUSA and Fort Belknap Law Enforcement as to the evidence gathering and prosecution of cases. Our Law Enforcement reports crime to the federal agencies and 

yet we get limited to no feedback from the FBI as to the status of any pending case. 

On April 23, 2024, our Tribal Council made a specific request through Mr. Laslovich 

to have the FBI present at the Council Meeting Discussions and the on-going 

monthly case-staffings. 

Our Tribes are finding that the FBI is reactive not proactive. And this is frustrating. The FBI has jurisdiction over non-Indians and our Tribal Law Enforcement 

Officers’ hands are tied because we only have jurisdiction over Tribal Members. So 

we get into situations where if the FBI has jurisdiction over a criminal case and 

that person is not immediately arrested, the County Sheriff won’t arrest because 

they say the FBI has jurisdiction. So the suspects are not arrested and are allowed 

to continue to victimize members of our Community. Further, the federal punishment is less severe on the federal-side for drugs than it is for the State/County. And 

the Border Patrol on the other hand cannot initiate contact with anyone that they 

believe may be illegal unless there is a local law enforcement agency that makes 

contact first and requests them. This further slows the process when the Northern 

Border is within 40 Miles of our Reservation. 

The National Congress of American Indians authored a Report to Congress in 

2006 which put the federal government on notice that drug cartels were moving 

onto the Reservations but nothing has been done. The other government arm that 

fails us is the Border Patrol. They know Mexican or other illegal aliens are on 

Reservations but do nothing. Our People get harassed when they cross the Border 

with sacred objects even though our Border-crossing rights are protected by the JayTreaty, yet the cartel seem to be able to get right through. 

Fort Belknap Law Enforcement is seriously underfunded by the federal government and by BIA. Recall: our Reservation is the size of Rhode Island and we have 

total BIA funding for 9 Law Enforcement Officers. Officers lack equipment and are 

untrained to handle this crisis. The Fort Belknap Indian Community contracts the 

Law Enforcement through the 638-contracting process. In 1997 the federal government offered $1.2 Million dollars to Fort Belknap for Law Enforcement—and 27 

years later offer $1.3 Million. Due to the funding disparity, the Fort Belknap 

Community has a pending federal lawsuit against the United States government 

due to its breach of contract and trust responsibilities owed to our People. 

BIA Law Enforcement Training is located in Artesia, New Mexico, which is 

located 1,279.5 Miles away from the Fort Belknap Indian Community. If Law 

Enforcement applicants are trained by state law enforcement, they are required to 

receive the additional federal training in Artesia, New Mexico. Our Law 
25 

Enforcement recruitment and retention challenges are hard enough with the basic 

requirements of needing the training. BIA needs to be on-board with finding Law 

Enforcement Training locations in the Great Plains Region or work with state law 

enforcement trainings to implement federal law enforcement requirements. 

It is repeatedly reported to us that drug cartels are targeting our Native women 

and using homes on reservations as safe houses and distribution hubs. They are 

able to operate with impunity because of complex jurisdictional rules and the fact 

that Tribal law enforcement agencies have been under-resourced and under-staffed 

for decades. This problem is directly connected to our War on Drug Crisis, our communities are reporting more instances of sexual abuse, human trafficking, child 

abuse and domestic violence. And it creates a frightening environment of lawlessness. President Stiffarm previously asked: Why should we be afraid in our own 

Country? And as a Combat Veteran, I concur with his assessment that Congress 

funds billions in federal aid to foreign countries to protect their borders and to kill 

their enemies. The Fort Belknap Indian Community needs funding to protect our 

own borders in order to live peacefully. 

As recently as November 2023, the Not Invisible Act Commission congressional 

report found made specific recommendations for Congress after detailing Indian 

Country’s lack of law enforcement, lack of federal coordination and cooperation with 

Tribal and Local Governments, lack of training of Law Enforcement, lack of jurisdictional understanding, and of course, lack of funding. Fort Belknap Indian Community agrees with the Not Invisible Act Commission’s recommendations and urges 

Congress to implement the recommendations. Congress and Indian Country have 

proven, through these Commission Reports, that in order to protect ourselves, Tribal 

governments need to have the financial resources and the ability to exercise Tribal 

Criminal jurisdiction over all People and all crimes that occur within our Reservations. (See also Commission Reports from the Tribal Law and Order Act of 2010 

(‘‘TLOA’’) and the Violence Against Women Reauthorization Act (VAWA) of 2013 

and its 2022 Amendments.) 

We cannot continue to allow cartels to take advantage of the holes in our justice 

system and we cannot win this violent war by ourselves. I encourage you to do 

everything possible to ensure we have the tools and resources we need to keep our 

communities safe. 

In Conclusion, 100 Years Ago, thru the Indian Citizenship Act of June 2, 

1924, Congress wanted United States Citizenship to all Native Americans 

born in the United States. You wanted Us to be Citizens of the United 

States: now You have a duty to protect all of us—including the Protection 

of Our Borders of our Reservations. 

I thank you for your time and am happy to answer any questions. 

Dr. GOSAR. Thank you. I thank the gentleman for his testimony. 

I now recognize Ms. Zinn for her testimony. 

STATEMENT OF STACY ZINN, FORMER RESIDENT IN CHARGE, 

ROCKY MOUNTAIN DIVISION, DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION, BILLINGS, MONTANA 

Ms. ZINN. Thank you. My name is Stacy Zinn. I am the former 

Resident Agent in Charge for the DEA of Montana. I am going to 

give you a little bit of history and why we are at where we are at. 

Back in 2014, as a new group supervisor for the Eastern District 

of Montana Tactical Diversion Team, my job was to oversee the 

teams that were developing investigations targeting those that 

were diverting prescription pills like OxyContin and other opioids. 

A single 30 milligram of oxy would cost approximately $35 on the 

streets in Billings. You take that pill up to Rocky Boy’s 

Reservation, they could charge $67 for that one pill. You shift over 

to the Fort Peck Reservation, that one pill cost $89 back then. 

The pill prices were extremely profitable for nefarious drug organizations, and this caught the attention of the Mexican cartel. 

While the cartels had a reputation of exploiting the Native 

American communities with the meth sales, it wasn’t until the 
26 

explosion of fentanyl that the cartels became overt. Rumors of the 

Sinaloa Cartel distributing illegal drugs on the Crow and Northern 

Cheyenne Reservations have always surfaced, and while there was 

some evidence of this being the case, we were unable to prosecute 

these investigations because we could not get enough evidence. 

Fast forward to 2019. The Sinaloa Cartel was making their move 

from the southwestern portion of the state, Butte, Montana, and 

then traveling all the way across to Fort Peck Reservation. An 

investigation led to the successful prosecution, but it resulted in 

the seizure of 65 pounds of meth, more than 2,000 pills, fake pills, 

3 pounds of heroin. The agents also confiscated over $32,000 and 

19 firearms. Post-arrest statements indicated that the Sinaloa 

Cartel was expanding into the reservations. 

In 2022, rumors of cartel presence was taking place on the Crow 

Reservation. Once it was learned that the cartel, believed to be 

Nueva Generacion Cartel, CJNG, was operating and moving freely 

on the reservation, I directed my Billings team to hyper-focus on 

this investigation. DEA, along with FBI and BIA, teamed up and 

started long-term investigation. The investigation centered on the 

Crow Indian Reservation, where cartels’ associates took over at 

least two properties and used them to distribute meth to people on 

the reservation, as well as nearby Northern Cheyenne Indian 

Reservation, Fort Belknap Reservation, Rocky Boy’s Reservation, 

Flathead Reservation, and up into the town of Billings. This cartel 

was based in Washington State, near a separate reservation. 

The New York Times later wrote in their Montana Cartel expose, 

‘‘A second Federal drug investigation in Montana has led to 

charges against more than two dozen people, and includes allegations of Mexican cartel members using Native Americans as pawns 

in their operation. This investigation is still being adjudicated, and 

current public information is limited in order for the last of the 

defendants to have a fair trial.’’ 

While the above investigation has left a temporary cartel void in 

the reservations, a lot of intelligence was learned. The cartels do 

not want to give up this territory where they can have such control. 

The price markup of these drugs being purchased in Montana is 

tripled, compared to larger cities in the surrounding states. This is 

a huge attraction to those that are manufacturing and selling the 

drugs, mainly the Mexican cartels. 

Due to the lack of law enforcement at both the local and Federal 

levels, the Mexican cartel is taking full advantage. Members of the 

cartel will prey on the Native community by giving small amounts 

of drugs for free, or have the individuals start selling for the cartels 

in order to get a payout in drugs. However, time and time again, 

we will see that the Natives will start using the drugs they are 

supposed to be selling, which leads to them getting into debt with 

the cartels. At this point, the cartels have muscled their way into 

the collective groups and monies are now owed. A vicious cycle 

occurs, and eventually individuals are so far into debt they do not 

know how to get out from underneath the cartels. The cycle is only 

broken when that seller is arrested by law enforcement or killed. 

So, why do we have this problem in Montana? A lack of law 

enforcement at both the local and Federal level has created a 

vacuum. Montana local law enforcement, to include the Montana 
27 

Criminal Division’s investigations, do not have the authorities to 

conduct law enforcement activities on the reservation without a 

signed MOU with the tribe. These MOUs have become rare. 

Tribal police, while currently on most of the reservations, are 

lacking in manpower, investigative tools, and sometimes are compromised. Federal agencies such as the DEA and FBI are limited 

in their resources. A four-man enforcement drug team for the DEA, 

the ones in the eastern district of Montana, is beyond unbelievable, 

especially when they have to cover Gallatin County and Bozeman, 

where there are two cartels present, and also Yellowstone County, 

where the cartels and gang members are establishing territories. 

The FBI had their hands tied up with both assault investigations, 

and their numbers of agents are limited, too. 

The BIA has its own issues: lack of manpower to cover the 

reservations, hiring issues, and an inability to keep drug agents 

employed in certain reservations due to harsh working conditions. 

Before COVID, a review was conducted by representatives of the 

DOJ pertaining to the lack of law enforcement presence on the 

reservations and the need for more BIA representation. It was at 

these meetings where it was openly discussed that the cartel presence would only get worse if actions were not taken. Unfortunately, 

with all these above issues combined, the Mexican cartel has taken 

full advantage of the USA’s inability to man the reservations and 

the surrounding areas. At some point, we need to take the cartel 

presence seriously. 

Whether it is the reservations, Bozeman, Butte, Billings, or 

Great Falls, the need for change is real. We cannot continue to be 

idle and sit on our hands. 

[The prepared statement of Ms. Zinn follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF STACY ZINN, FORMER DEA GROUP SUPERVISOR FOR THE

EASTERN DISTRICT OF MONTANA’S TACTICAL DIVERSION GROUP

In 2014, I, Stacy Zinn, was a new DEA Group Supervisor for the Eastern District 

of Montana’s Tactical Diversion Group. My job was to oversee the teams that were 

developing investigations targeting those that were diverting prescription pills like 

Oxycontin and other opioids. A single 30 mg of Oxy pill would cost approximately 

$35.00 on the streets of Billings, Montana but you could sell that same pill for 

approximately $67.00 on the Rocky Boy Reservation and $89.00 on the Ft. Peck 

reservation. The pill prices were extremely profitable for nefarious drug organizations and this caught the attention of the Mexican Cartels. While the cartels had 

a reputation of exploiting the Native American communities with meth sales, it 

wasn’t until the explosion of fentanyl that the cartels became overt. 

Rumors of the Sinaloa Cartel distributing illegal drugs on Crow and Northern 

Cheyenne reservations have always surfaced, and while there were some evidences 

of this being the case, investigators were unable to put together a prosecutorial case. 

Fast forward to 2019, the Sinaloa Cartel was making their move from the southwestern portion of the state, Butte, Montana, across to the Ft. Peck Reservation, 

which is located in the northeastern portion of Montana. Ultimately, the multiagency investigation resulted in the seizure of 65 pounds of meth, more than 2,000 

counterfeit OxyContin pills laced with fentanyl and 3 pounds of heroin. The agents 

also confiscated more than $32,000 in cash and 19 firearms. Post arrest statements 

indicated that the Sinaloa Cartel was expanded into the reservation. 

In 2022, rumors of cartel presence were taking place on the Crow Reservation. 

Once it was learned that the cartel, believed to have been Jalisco New Generation 

Cartel or CJNG, was physically moving onto the Crow Reservation, I directed my 

Billings team to hyper focus on this investigation. DEA, along with FBI and Bureau 

of Indian Affairs (BIA), teamed up and started a long-term investigation. The investigation centered on the Crow Indian Reservation, where cartel associates took over 

at least two properties and used them to distribute meth to people on the 
28 

reservation as well as the nearby Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation, Ft. 

Belknap Reservation, Rocky Boy Reservation, Flathead Reservation and in the town 

of Billings. This cartel was based in Washington state near a separate reservation. 

The New York Times later wrote in their Montana cartel expose, ‘‘A second federal 

drug case in Montana has led to charges against more than two dozen people and 

includes allegations of Mexican cartel members using Native Americans as pawns 

in the operation.’’ This investigation is still being adjudicated and current public 

information is limited in order for the last of the defendants to have a fair trial. 

While the above investigation has left a temporary cartel void in the reservations, 

a lot of intelligence was learned. The cartels will not want to give up territory where 

they can have such control. The price mark up of drugs being purchased in Montana 

is tripled compare to larger cities located in the surrounding states. This is a huge 

attraction to those that are manufacturing and selling the drugs, mainly, the 

Mexican Cartels. Due to the lack of law enforcement at both the local and federal 

levels, the Mexican Cartel is taking full advantage. Members of the cartel will prey 

on the Native Community by giving small amounts of drugs for free or have the 

individuals start selling for the cartels in order to get a payout in drugs. However, 

time and again, we see that the natives will start using the drugs they are supposed 

to be selling which leads to them getting into debt with the cartels. At this point, 

the cartels have muscled their way into the collective group and monies are now 

owed. A vicious cycle occurs and eventually the individuals are so far into debt, that 

they do not know how to get up from underneath the cartels. The cycle is only 

broken when that seller is arrested by law enforcement or is killed. 

So why do we have this problem in Montana? A lack of law enforcement at both 

the local and federal level has created a vacuum. Montana local law enforcement, 

to include the Montana Criminal Division of Investigations, do not have the authorities to conduct law enforcement activities on the reservation without a signed MOU 

with the tribe. These MOUs have become rare. Tribal police, while currently on 

most of the reservations, are lacking in man-power, investigative tools and sometimes are compromised. Federal agencies such as the DEA and FBI are limited in 

their resources. A four-man enforcement drug team for the Eastern District of 

Montana is beyond unbelievable especially when they have to cover Gallatin County 

(Bozeman) who is known for their cartel activities and Yellowstone County (Billings) 

where cartels and gang members are establishing territories. The FBI have their 

hands tied up with both assault investigations and their numbers of agents are 

limited too. The BIA has its own issues: lack of man power to cover the reservations, 

hiring issues and the inability to keeping drug agents in employed in certain 

reservations due to the harsh working conditions. Before COVID, a review was 

conducted by representatives from DOJ pertaining to the lack of law enforcement 

presence on the reservations and the need for more BIA representation. It was at 

these meetings where it was openly discussed that the cartel presence would only 

get worst if actions were not taken. 

Unfortunately, with all of these above issues combined, the Mexican Cartel has 

taken full advantage of the U.S.A’s inability to man the reservations and the 

surrounding areas. At some point, we need to take the cartel presence seriously. 

Whether it is the reservations, Bozeman, Butte, Billings or Great Falls, the need 

for change is real. We cannot continue to be idle and sit on our hands. 

Dr. GOSAR. Thank you, Ms. Zinn. The gentleman from California, 

Mr. John Nores, Jr., is recognized for 5 minutes. 

STATEMENT OF JOHN NORES, JR., LIEUTENANT (RETIRED), 

SPECIAL OPERATIONS, MARIJUANA ENFORCEMENT TEAM, 

CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND WILDLIFE, 

MORGAN HILL, CALIFORNIA 

Mr. NORES. Good afternoon, Chairman Gosar and esteemed 

Members of Congress. It is an honor to speak with you all again 

today in our nation’s capital. I was a game warden in California 

for 28 years, part of our nationwide thin green line of conservation 

officers protecting our nation’s wildlife, waterways, and wild lands. 

The Mexican cartels, along with other worldwide Transnational 

Criminal Organizations, or TCOs, have become the biggest 
29 

domestic public safety threat and some of the greatest destroyers 

of our natural resources, especially on tribal lands. 

Our first violent encounter with the cartels was during an allied 

agency cartel Cannabis Grow raid on pristine public land in the 

Silicon Valley foothills. When ambushed by cartel gunmen, my 

young warden partner was near fatally shot through both legs by 

an AK-47. This was the first time we had learned of the highly 

toxic EPA-banned poisons, neurotoxins like carbofuran, Furadan, 

metaphos, being smuggled into the United States through our 

southern border, the massive amounts of water stealing and water 

pollution, the anti-personnel traps like Vietnam-era punji pits 

throughout many of these clandestine grow sites, and killing of 

numerous wildlife species. 

These public and tribal land grow sites can be as remote as 10 

miles into pristine tribal back country, or as close as a few hundred 

yards from a children’s summer camp and Silicon Valley hillside 

homes. 

After four more officer-involved shootings, I was honored to codevelop and lead the Marijuana Enforcement Team, the MET, in 

2013, a specialized game warden unit comprised of lifesaving 

apprehension canines, a sniper observer unit, and skilled operators 

dedicated to this fight. 

Through 800 missions, we eradicated 3 million cannabis plants, 

most of them toxically tainted with EPA-banned chemicals, 

destroyed 29 tons of processed cannabis for sale, and made 973 

felony arrests on growers, many classified as deportable felons with 

extensive criminal histories. 

On the environmental damage front, our team removed 450 tons 

of gross site waste, 455 miles of water diversion pipe, 756 gallons 

of illegal and toxic chemicals, and dismantled and restored waterways being diverted by 793 dams, accounting for millions of gallons 

of water being stolen from pristine public and tribal land tracks. 

With Tribal Nations throughout California outnumbered and 

understaffed, our MET was honored to team up with the Northern 

California’s Hoopa Valley and Yurok Tribal Police to assist in their 

fight to stop cartel destruction of their waterway, wildlife, and 

wildland resources. 

Over the last 11 years, we have collaborated with these tribes on 

numerous cartel cannabis grow operations, and witnessed the egregious impacts to their pristine tribal waterways, specifically the 

Trinity River. The Trinity is the lifeblood of both tribes, and relied 

upon for drinking water, ceremonies, salmon, their main food 

source, and steelhead trout, a state and federally listed endangered 

species. 

It was a privilege to work alongside tribal police officers dedicated to stopping the destruction of their sacred waterway and 

wildlife resources while protecting their communities. During operations we encountered hundreds of historical grow sites, found 

numerous EPA-banned toxic poisons, dismantled countless water 

diversions, removed hundreds of tons of grow site waste and pollutants, and restored hundreds of waterways with our tribal partners. 

While I have highlighted the destruction of our wildlife and 

waterway resources engendered by these criminal groups, we must 

remember that these cartels are polycriminals that engage in 
30 

numerous other public safety crimes, even in the most remote 

regions of my home state now in Montana. 

As my dedicated colleagues from Montana have just testified, the 

fentanyl black market has become a cartel cash cow, with their 

deadly product killing, on average, 200 Americans a day, 73,000 of 

our citizens each year, with a skewed percentage of those being on 

tribal lands. 

Given that a single fentanyl tablet can yield up to $90 on the 

black market on remote tribal lands, the cartels have moved in and 

taken over the fentanyl trade while engaging in human trafficking, 

theft, and other public safety crimes. These vulnerable communities are being targeted, with crime and overdoses surging 

throughout Tribal Nations in the most remote and vast parts of 

Montana. Mexican cartels have targeted the Crow, Cheyenne, and 

Blackfeet Tribes, leaving them strung out, addicted, and decimated. 

Tribal police officers are simply vastly outnumbered, making it 

nearly impossible to hinder any cartel operations within their districts. These examples illustrate the pervasiveness of cartel operations throughout America, especially in tribal lands. Our people 

and our wildlife and waterway resources are being destroyed, and 

stopping the cartels from poisoning our tribal communities must be 

a top priority. 

Thank you, and I am happy to answer any questions you have. 

[The prepared statement of Mr. Nores follows:] 

PREPARED STATEMENT OF LIEUTENANT JOHN NORES JR. (RET.), CALIFORNIA DEPT. OF

FISH AND WILDLIFE, MARIJUANA ENFORCEMENT TEAM (MET), SPECIAL OPERATIONS

My name is John Nores, and I am a retired special operations game warden 

Lieutenant from the California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW). It was an 

honor to be a game warden and serve 28 years protecting our nation’s wildlife, 

waterway and wildland resources and stopping wildlife and environmental 

protection law violators was a privilege. 

California game wardens are statewide police officers while also being federally 

deputized to enforce Federal wildlife protection laws. I began my journey with the 

police training academy in 1992 and at that time I could never have anticipated 

that the end of my operational career two decades later would be spent leading a 

specialized unit of game wardens dedicated to combating Transnational Criminal 

Organizations (TCO’s), aka ‘‘cartel’’ infiltration of our nation’s pristine public and 

rural private lands to grow toxically tainted black-market cannabis for nationwide 

distribution. 

This proved to be true as drug cartel operations within California and every other 

state in our nation have become some of the most egregious environmental and 

wildlife resource crimes and public safety threats we have seen throughout America. 

Through their use of US EPA banned chemical insecticides and rodenticides 

(carbofuran, Metaphos, Q-Furan, etc.) and massive amounts of water theft 

(especially alarming during recent peak drought years in the country) throughout 

tens of thousands of clandestine cannabis grow sites on both public and private 

land, cartel cells are poisoning waterways, killing numerous wildlife species, 

destroying wildland trees, vegetation and grass lands while posing a severe threat 

to our public’s safety. 

The public safety threats posed by these criminal cells are evident in cartel grow 

sites we have encountered with firearms, stabbing blades, and various anti-personal 

traps (i.e., Vietnam war era punji pits) as well as toxic poisons and other public 

safety threats common throughout these sites. 

The cartel’s propensity for violence, however, was first witnessed on a deadly 

cannabis grow arrest and eradication mission in the Silicon Valley foothills we 

conducted with the Santa Clara County Sheriff’s Office on August 5th, 2005. 

While entering the grow site, our allied agency enforcement team was ambushed 

by cartel gunmen defending their multi-million dollar complex and a gunfight 

ensued. A near-fatal bullet from a grower’s AK47 struck our young warden team-
31 

mate, penetrating both of his legs before an agonizing 3 hour wait for his helicopter 

evacuation to the hospital. 

That incident was the first time a law enforcement officer in America had been 

hit and nearly killed by a clandestine marijuana grower’s bullet, and our first 

violent encounter with tactically savvy cartel operatives from Mexico running their 

operations in the US, in this case within the Silicon Valley. 

We would have four more officer involved shooting incidents and numerous other 

violent encounters with cartel grower groups defending their black-market cannabis 

operations throughout California before I was tasked with co-developing and leading 

a special operations group of game wardens within our agency called the Marijuana 

Enforcement Team (MET). 

Comprised of officers with extensive tactical experience, wilderness fieldcraft, 

(stalking, apprehension, and survival skills), amazing lifesaving apprehension and 

detection K9 partners, a sniper unit, national guard, and allied agency law enforcement helicopter teams, the MET’s mission was clear: 

• Apprehend and prosecute illegal and dangerous growers to protect our public. 

• Eradicate their black market (in many cases poisonous and highly toxic) crop 

before reaching the national black market. 

• Environmentally restore illegal outdoor trespass grow sites by removing 

water diversions, restoring waterways, removing grow site poisons, encampments, and other waste to reclamate the site back to its natural state on 

pristine public and private lands. 

I led the MET until operational retirement in December 2018 and between July 

2013 and December 2018, our documented production levels paint an ominous 

picture during those first five years: 

• 800 arrest, eradication, environmental reclamation missions. 

• Destroyed three million toxically tainted cannabis plants. 

• Destroyed 58,677 pounds (29 tons) of toxically tainted processed cannabis 

for sale and distribution. 

• Made 973 felony arrests (approximately 90% of those arrests made on cartel 

or cartel affiliated Mexican nationals operating in the US illegally). 

• Seized and destroyed 601 firearms. 

• Removed 899,945 pounds (450 tons) of grow site waste and other 

pollutants. 

• Removed 2.35 million feet (455 miles) of irrigation pipe. 

• Removed 91,728 pounds (46 tons) of fertilizers. 

• Removed 756 gallons of illegal toxic chemicals. 

• Dismantled 793 water stealing dams from these clandestine grow 

complexes with these dams (and many other illegal cannabis water 

diversions) depleting billions of gallons of water during California’s peak 

drought period. 

These figures represent only a fraction of the extent of damage cartels generate 

throughout the US with a significant amount of these clandestine grow sites 

occurring on our most vulnerable communities, remote tribal lands. 

Given an estimated hundreds of thousands of cartel operatives that have infiltrated reservations across the American West, and the extremely limited number of 

tribal enforcement personnel responsible for covering massive territories, tribal 

police forces cannot effectively combat this problem alone. Outnumbered, understaffed and underfunded, Northern California’s Hoopa Valley and Yurok tribes 

reached out to our MET for assistance. 

Between 2013 and 2018 we committed to working directly with both tribes being 

impacted by large numbers of cartel marijuana grow operations on their forests. Of 

most concern were the egregious impacts to pristine tribal waterways, specifically 

the Trinity river. The Trinity is the lifeblood of both tribes and relied on for 

drinking water, ceremonies and their main food source—salmon. And near and dear 

to us game wardens, the Trinity river also hosts steelhead trout, a state and 

federally listed endangered species. 

It was a privilege to work alongside tribal police officers dedicated to stopping the 

cartel’s destruction of their sacred waterway and wildlife resources while protecting 

their communities. During these allied agency operations, we encountered hundreds 

of historical cartel grow sites, found numerous EPA banned toxic poisons throughout 
32 

those clandestine grows, dismantled numerous water diversions, removed hundreds 

of tons of grow site waste and pollutants and restored hundreds of waterways. 

While I have outlined the wild land, waterway and wildlife resource crimes engendered by these criminal groups and the associated dangers to our public’s safety 

from my operational experience, we must remember that these TCO’s are polycriminals whose organizations engage in numerous other public safety crimes 

beyond toxically tainted black market cannabis production. 

DEA officials point out that the Mexican cartels are now partnered with the 

Chinese cartels to the benefit of both organizations. Chinese crime groups supply 

the pre-cursor chemicals the Mexican cartels need to produce and distribute 

fentanyl and meth-amphetamine now killing hundreds of thousands of Americans 

annually, while the Chinese have virtually taken over the black market cannabis 

trade using America as the middle man to launder billions of untraceable cash 

dollars (https://youtu.be/xMsLDv4M0VM?si=Bkk8IqHS5F4DEZsH). 

Once again, our most vulnerable communities are being heavily targeted with 

crime and overdoses surging throughout tribal nations. In my home state of 

Montana for example, the Mexican cartels have targeted tribal communities in the 

most remote part, of the most remote state, in our nation. 

Given that a single deadly fentanyl tablet can yield up to $100 on the black 

market, the cartels have moved in and taken over the fentanyl and methamphetamine trade, while engaged in numerous other crimes throughout these communities including human trafficking, theft and more. Tribes like the Crow, 

Cheyenne and Black Feet are being decimated as cartel operatives are leaving 

reservation communities strung out, addicted or worse. 

Given the vastness of this part of Montana, tribal police officers are even more 

outnumbered with an average of two BIA officers responsible for approximately 

440,000 remote acres making it nearly impossible to hinder any cartel operations 

within their jurisdiction. 

These examples from my past and present home states illustrate how effective 

and efficient the cartels are operating throughout all of America, especially on our 

tribal lands. None of us are immune to the dangers these criminal groups present 

throughout our homeland as our public and our pristine wildland, waterway and 

wildlife resources continue to be poisoned and destroyed. Given everything we have 

seen while combating this issue, stopping the cartels from operating within America 

to poison our tribal communities must be a top priority. 
33 
34 
35 
36 
37 
38 

Dr. GOSAR. Thank you, Lieutenant. I will now go to the Members 

for some questions. Right off the bat is the Chair of the Full 

Committee, Mr. Westerman. 

You are up for 5 minutes. 

Mr. WESTERMAN. Thank you, Chairman Gosar, and thank you to 

the witnesses for being here today. 
39 

This is a topic that is not getting nearly enough attention. It is 

something that has come up in other hearings that we have had, 

but I think the American public needs to be made aware of what 

is happening on our tribal lands. It is happening all across our 

country, but especially the egregious things that are happening on 

the tribal lands here. 

We did a hearing in southern Arizona, in Cochise County, and 

it was on damage to public lands and illegal immigration. And 

Sheriff Mark Dannels there made a statement where he said it is 

not an immigration problem we have. He said it is an organized 

crime problem. And it got me really thinking a lot about, you know, 

he is right. These are Mexican cartels. And they are not just operating along the border in southern Arizona, they are in Montana, 

they are in California. They are all across our country. And the 

cartels have to have a presence to be able to cash in on the human 

trafficking when they are basically enslaving people. It is a massive 

problem that is not getting nearly enough attention. 

But Chief Roberge, as you know, the cartels obviously present an 

extreme danger to Indian communities all across America. 

Eradicating the cartels and their fentanyl from Indian Country 

should be a major priority for the FBI and other Federal law 

enforcement. But we know this is not always the case. How present 

is the FBI on the Fort Belknap Reservation, and how would you 

describe your relationship with the FBI Salt Lake City Field office, 

which I believe covers your area? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes, Mr. Westerman. We have a pretty good 

relationship with the FBI of that Salt Lake City field office. 

We are mandated by Federal law. Any felonious type offense, I 

guess I wouldn’t say any felonious type offense, it would be any 

serious offense: murder, any unattended death, most drug-related 

crimes, we have to call or report it to the FBI. 

Essentially, what happens is, I have my criminal investigator 

here sitting behind me, he will put the case together. Kind of in 

tandem with the FBI, a lot of times he hands it over to the FBI. 

The FBI then does a cross-memo, I believe, to submit that to the 

AUSA, and then they prosecute. 

So, we do have a pretty good working relationship with them. 

But as far as dangerous drugs go, we use the BIA Drug Enforcement Division a little bit more because we are getting more results 

out of them. It is hit or miss. They take a reactive approach, the 

FBI I am speaking of, as far as proactive. 

Mr. WESTERMAN. And we had a hearing earlier this year, and a 

tribal leader was talking about death threats from the cartels. And 

now you testified that there were four murders in 3 months in a 

community of 7,000 people, and directly because of drugs coming 

from the southern border. Would you like to elaborate on that? 

Mr. ROBERGE. I will elaborate, I apologize. The four murders 

weren’t a direct cause and effect from drugs being trafficked across 

the southern border. Our rise in violent crime and everything else, 

from what we are seeing, if we track data, is caused from dangerous drug trafficking. I mean, we haven’t seen this type of violent 

crime in a while. And with that, we haven’t had a murder in years. 

And then all of a sudden this year, with an uptick in fentanyl and 

methamphetamine, we have four of them. 
40 

Mr. WESTERMAN. Yes. And I used a lot of time there but, Ms. 

Zinn, I found your testimony extremely compelling because you 

have extensive experience working with tribes in Montana. Can 

you describe some instances in which the DEA successfully worked 

with tribes to dismantle cartel distribution networks? 

Ms. ZINN. Oh, absolutely. When I was the head of DEA, that is 

what we worked, was the large drug cartel that we took off 

throughout the state of Montana on the reservations. They were 

coming from Omak, Washington, traveling to Flathead, dropping 

off, going all the way to Great Falls, dropping off in Rocky Boy, 

going up through Havre, dropping off in Fort Belknap, and then 

coming and laying their heads down in Crow Agency. 

When we teamed up with FBI and BIA, we were successful in 

our investigation. It took 8–11 months to actually work. But I can 

actually say the Mexican cartel, the members that we arrested, 

they were all illegals that had come across our southwest border. 

So, the problem that we have is that some of them have fled, and 

we hear the rumors they are back into the United States, but they 

are going to be under a new identification, so we are going to be 

having to retract that all over again. 

Mr. WESTERMAN. I was going to ask you to identify any existing 

barriers that complicate DEA’s mission to eliminate illegal drug 

distribution and to prosecute drug traffickers. It sounds like this 

new identification may be one of those barriers. Are there other 

ones in Indian Country? 

Ms. ZINN. Oh, absolutely. We need more drug agents in Montana. 

When I was saying we have four enforcement drug agents to cover 

Havre, Bozeman, Ekalaka, and Plentywood, four guys can’t do it. 

Cannot do it. 

Mr. WESTERMAN. Again, I am way out of time, but thank you all 

so much for your testimony. And this is something we have to 

follow up on. 

I yield back, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. GOSAR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The gentleman from 

Montana, Mr. Rosendale, is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. 

Ms. Zinn, thank you for attending today. Mr. Roberge and Mr. 

Nores, when you start naming the cities, though, Ms. Zinn, and you 

say Havre and Bozeman, these folks have no idea the distance that 

we are talking about that is between those areas, which would take 

about a 2-day trip and many meals to get you to all four of those 

cities. 

Ms. ZINN. Maybe I need to say 4 hours, 5 hours, 3 hours and 4 

hours. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. Exactly. 

Mr. Roberge, I am going to start with you. There is concern 

regarding cartel associates forming close relationships with 

Indigenous women on the reservations to establish themselves 

within the communities. Is your community taking any steps to 

ensure that your community members don’t fall into these traps 

with the cartel members, that they are educated of what is going 

on? 

Mr. ROBERGE. We try to put some education out there, and social 

media, movies, and TV. People see this all the time. But short of 
41 

violating civil rights, we can’t really tell them who to be with. They 

do a pretty good job. I mean, we all look the same. They blend in 

well. It is pretty tough to tell. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. OK. Have you noticed or experienced any of 

your tribal members protecting cartel members when Federal 

agents do come to investigate? 

And if you do, do you think that is out of fear for retribution 

from the cartels, or is it out of financial incentive because they are 

actually benefiting from having these relationships? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes, it is a multitude of reasons, everything you 

just named. The biggest thing would be fear. Everybody knows 

these guys will cut somebody’s head off, or hang them from an 

overpass, whatever. Everybody has seen it. 

There is that. There is a financial incentive. And everybody that 

they connect with are addicted to their product. So, there is that, 

as well. A lot of times we won’t hear about it. They will protect 

them, and house them, and do their bidding, and gone. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. Ms. Zinn, you were talking about the value of 

the drug on the reservations and how much greater it is than it 

is just even in Billings itself. Why is that? Why is it that it jumps 

from $35 or $38 up to $65, and then all the way over by Fort Peck 

you are $100 for that same pill? 

Ms. ZINN. Distance. In order to transport the drugs, the farther 

you go away from the southwest border the higher the markup of 

the drugs. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. OK. So, can we come to an agreement with our 

panel here that the open border is increasing the amount of drug 

and criminal activity that we see on these reservations? 

Ms. ZINN. Absolutely. 

Mr. ROBERGE. A hundred percent. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. OK. I do appreciate that candor. 

Ms. Zinn, why do you believe that the Bureau of Indian Affairs 

has been so ineffective at protecting these tribes from the cartel 

activities? 

Ms. ZINN. Several reasons. There are not enough of them. They 

need double the amount of agents. They need more tools. And, 

unfortunately, when you have an operation in the area, you have 

only a small portion of drug cops in Montana. If the state of 

Washington is doing an actual operation, all those agents are 

shifted over to travel to the other state, and then they are shifted 

over to another state, then they come back to Montana. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. Let me ask one more thing before I run out of 

time here. I asked Mr. LaCounte the same question on the last 

panel, but I have been to other states where the reservations and 

the tribes had really strong agreements with the Federal law 

enforcement and the local law enforcement so that they could 

actually work together. 

What do you think could be done to strengthen agreements, or 

even get some agreements in place with the tribes in Montana to 

make sure that we can have that collaboration? 

Ms. ZINN. The Tribal Council has to have the MOU in place. But 

because they overturn every 4 years, a lot of times they don’t honor 

the MOU that is in place. It is building relationships. 
42 

By the time the people start trusting each other, then time has 

passed, and they are elected out of office. That is the problem with 

the local law enforcement, the DCI, and the tribe itself. FBI, DEA, 

and BIA have full range to go on the reservations, but we just have 

a lack of law enforcement. 

Mr. ROSENDALE. OK. Thank you very much. Thank you all for 

joining us here today. 

Mr. Chair, I yield back. 

Dr. GOSAR. I thank the gentleman from Montana. The 

gentlewoman from Wyoming is recognized for her 5 minutes. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

According to the House Budget Committee report, international 

cartels are reaping unprecedented profits from human and drug 

smuggling and trafficking, upwards of $30 million a day or nearly 

$1 billion a month. International drug cartels have been purposely 

targeting rural Native American reservations, both for the sale of 

meth and as distribution hubs for fentanyl. Indian Country has 

also borne the brunt of the horrific rise in human sex trafficking. 

Even before the recent influx of fentanyl use and overdoses, an 

older DOJ study from 2006 estimated that 40 percent of violent 

crimes are attributable to methamphetamine, which we know is 

disproportionately trafficked in and bought and sold on Indian 

reservations. Since then, this problem has gotten much worse, not 

better. 

Chief Roberge, in your testimony you mentioned a report that 

was authored by the National Congress of American Indians and 

sent to Congress in 2006. This report included damning information on the rise of violent crime on Indian reservations, and essentially predicted the situation we find ourselves in today if we didn’t 

do anything back then to address it. In your own words you state, 

‘‘Since then nothing has been done.’’ That is a very sad state of 

affairs. 

Secretary Mayorkas disagrees with you, however, and in 2023, in 

a judiciary hearing, he actually stated that our approach to managing the border securely and humanely, even within our fundamentally broken immigration system, is working. Would you 

agree with Secretary Mayorkas that they have secured the border 

and their approach to the immigration is working? Do you agree 

with him? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Currently? 

Ms. HAGEMAN. Yes. 

Mr. ROBERGE. That he has secured the border and his approach 

to immigration is working? 

Ms. HAGEMAN. That is what he testified to before the Judiciary 

Committee. 

Mr. ROBERGE. No. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. That is not what your experience has been, has 

it? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Not at all. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. What about you, Ms. Zinn, or you, Mr. Nores, do 

you believe that the current Administration has secured the border, 

and that their approach is working? 

Ms. ZINN. No. Our southern border is wide open, and our 

northern border is wide open. 
43 

Mr. NORES. Absolutely not. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. And many Indian communities have been and 

will continue to be devastated by the overflowing of fentanyl that 

is crossing our border. In my home state of Wyoming, over 23,700 

pills were seized in 2023 alone. 

Ms. Zinn, you have highlighted some of your successful operations, including a multi-agency operation where you seized 

tremendous amounts of meth and OxyContin laced with fentanyl. 

Can you explain how, in this particular instance, you were able to 

work effectively across agencies? 

Ms. ZINN. You have to have a leadership in place that is willing 

to do that. You have to have that olive branch and say, hey, we 

can do this together if we work together as a team. It is called communicating. And the end goal is to take care of the community. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. Do we have that leadership in place with the 

Biden administration? 

Ms. ZINN. At which level? 

Ms. HAGEMAN. Right now. 

Ms. ZINN. I would say in the state of Montana we do have that 

relationship in place. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. We are hearing from other witnesses today that 

these kinds of seizures are very difficult to accomplish, however. 

And as someone working very closely on these issues, in your opinion, what tends to cause interagency disputes? 

Ms. ZINN. Territory. Yo tengo mio. I have my case, you have your 

case. This case won’t get prosecuted in the U.S. Attorney’s Office. 

Maybe it will. All that comes into play. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. Ms. Zinn, in your work you have seen mass 

migration across the southern border, and all three of you just 

stated that the southern border is wide open, and whatever they 

are doing down there is not working, and it is having a devastating 

effect on our reservations. 

We are now looking at unprecedented numbers crossing the 

border every single day. And the announcement that was made by 

President Biden just today in terms of his Executive Order is not 

going to stem that flow. Our colleagues on the other side of the 

aisle are desperate to cover up the real-life consequences of the 

wide-open border that has occurred over the last 3 years. 

As someone who has worked on these issues across various 

administrations, Ms. Zinn, is it safe to say that the southern border 

is in the worst shape it has ever been under President Biden? 

Ms. ZINN. Absolutely. I have worked on the southern border. I 

know what the border looks like. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. Would you agree, Mr. Nores? 

Mr. NORES. Absolutely. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. And what about you, Chief Roberge? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. OK. With that, I want to thank you three for 

being here. I will echo what Chairman Westerman has stated. We 

have now had a couple of hearings on this particular topic. And as 

the Chairman of the Subcommittee on Indian and Insular Affairs, 

I take this extremely seriously, and it is breaking my heart, what 

we are seeing happening on our reservations. 
44 

I just had the opportunity to question the Attorney General of 

the United States, Merrick Garland, on this very issue. And I have 

demanded that they attempt to do something to address the open 

southern border so that we can provide some relief to our tribes 

and our tribal members. We are going to continue to fight this 

issue because it is so incredibly, critically important to our tribal 

members, to our tribes, and really, to the future of our country. So, 

thank you for being here. 

Dr. GOSAR. I thank the gentlewoman. The gentleman from 

Georgia, Mr. Collins, is recognized for 5 minutes. 

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know I am going to 

sound like a broken record, but I am a freshman up here, as well, 

and I spent my entire career in the private sector, so I have never 

been elected. And I have been appalled at what we have been 

hearing in these hearings. It is very upsetting. 

And just like the Chairman of the Full Committee said, I don’t 

think 99 percent of the American people have a clue, or know 

anything about what is going on in our tribal lands. 

Chief Roberge, you gave out six points that you would like to see 

done when you were giving your opening statement, and I would 

love to hear you expand on them in a written form, if you could, 

just so that I could get a better understanding of something. I 

know you are busy, but I would love to see if you have an expanded 

version of that. 

And I would also like to know, if the border was secure, would 

these still be the six things that the tribal lands need? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Absolutely, Mr. Collins. 

Mr. COLLINS. Thank you. And with that, I am going to yield back 

the remainder of my time to the gentlewoman from Wyoming, Ms. 

Hageman. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. Well, thank you, Mr. Collins. 

Picking up where I kind of left off, Chief Roberge, in your testimony, you highlighted some of the jurisdictional challenges that 

you face. You also suggested that it is common for local law 

enforcement to run into jurisdictional holes in our justice system 

that make it harder to punish cartel members and drug dealers. 

Has it become more common or less common for cartels and drug 

dealers to take advantage of these various loopholes? 

Mr. ROBERGE. More common. Significantly more. We are 

reaching out to the state or our surrounding counties, I can’t say 

the state, for help, and they are arguing that it is the FBI’s jurisdiction. And I explained the FBI, well, the AUSA, won’t allow a 

probable cause arrest right now or a complaint. Rather, when they 

commit an offense, we have to wait for this warrant of arrest to be 

issued before we can place them in jail. We don’t have that 

criminal jurisdiction over them. 

We only have criminal jurisdiction over Indians, tribal members 

of a federally recognized tribe. And the county won’t take them 

because they are arguing that these guys will commit a felonious 

type offense, not go to jail for it, can’t kick him off the reservation 

unless we have an exclusion hearing, which that doesn’t matter to 

them, either, and I have some examples that I submitted in written 

testimony of that. 
45 

Ms. HAGEMAN. If you would give some of those examples, and I 

guess what you are saying is they have become incredibly, what 

would I say, sophisticated at understanding our laws, these loopholes, these holes, how to exploit them. And essentially, they are 

tying everyone’s hands, including, most specifically, you, as well as 

the local law enforcement. 

But the FBI is also one of the problems, it sounds like, in terms 

of being able to provide you with the necessary enforcement that 

you need to ensure that these people are actually held criminally 

accountable. 

Mr. ROBERGE. I would say the U.S. Attorney. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. From the Department of Justice? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. OK. Could you give us some of the examples that 

you have included in your written testimony? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes. Would you like me to give them now? 

Ms. HAGEMAN. Please. 

Mr. ROBERGE. Absolutely. Give me 1 second here. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. I believe that you gave an example of a drug 

dealer who was very familiar with the laws and jurisdiction of the 

FBI and tribal law enforcement, that being one of the examples. 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes, this would be the one example. A few weeks 

ago, we had a non-Indian drug dealer dealing and living on our 

reservation. In the course of the tribal law enforcement investigation, this non-Indian drug dealer was found with a large amount 

of methamphetamine. He had a scale, drug paraphernalia, and all 

the precursors for sale or distribution of dangerous drugs. 

The reason we had contact with him is he had beaten a tribal 

member, which was a female, with a firearm. He didn’t shoot her, 

but he beat her with a firearm. And then this individual has a history of committing other drug-related crimes. 

The local county was called, as well as the FBI. Due to the 

ongoing criminal behavior of this non-Indian drug dealer, the court 

issued a preliminary order to exclude him from our reservation, as 

per the Fort Belknap Indian Community’s Constitution. The nonIndian drug dealer violated this within the week of the issuance of 

this order. 

So, prior to this exclusion order being issued, the county refused 

to take him. And he just beat a woman, left her for dead out in 

a rural area. She thought he was going to kill her. Nobody took 

him to jail. We didn’t have jurisdiction over him, and we violated 

civil rights if we did anything about it. 

That brings me to the point of we need legislative action, and a 

simple fix would be to overturn the Oliphant decision and give us 

criminal jurisdiction. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. That is one of the solutions right there. 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes, ma’am. 

Ms. HAGEMAN. OK. I very much appreciate that. That is a good 

example to give. 

I am out of time. Again, I want to thank you for being here, and 

your bravery, and being willing to work with us to try to find a fix 

and some solutions to these horrific problems that we are facing. 

Thank you. 
46 

Dr. GOSAR. I thank the gentlewoman from Wyoming. The gentlewoman from New Mexico, Ms. Stansbury, the Ranking Member, is 

recognized. 

Ms. STANSBURY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for 

traveling to be here with us today. 

Mr. Roberge, did I pronounce your name correctly? 

Mr. ROBERGE. You are the only one, yes. 

Ms. STANSBURY. Oh, good. Excellent. 

[Laughter.] 

Ms. STANSBURY. Let me, first of all, just say thank you for your 

service two times, both to our nation and to the tribe. We appreciate your service. I want to follow up on some of the recommendations that you made. I found them extremely helpful. 

You mentioned that your current agency is funded at around $1.5 million, and that funding really is a limiting factor. And I 

think it is relevant to this conversation. I think you may have seen 

the first panel and some of the Members are saying, well, what 

would you do if you had more money? So, please tell us, Chief, 

what would you do if you had more money? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Oh my gosh, that would be a game-changer. 

Excuse my lack of better terms, that would be life-changing for our 

department and our community. 

Right now, we are scraping the bottom of the barrel with $1.2, 

maybe $1.3 million since 1997, with no account to inflation or anything else. If I am going to keep wages at a competitive standard 

to recruit and retain officers, can’t buy equipment, can’t pay for 

training, I mean, can’t do any of that. Even if we increased it by 

several hundred thousand, a few hundred thousand, it would 

potentially change the lives of people in that community, having a 

greater law enforcement presence out there, having better equipment, community policing, community policing events, restoring 

trust in the community of law enforcement. It would be 

monumental. 

Ms. STANSBURY. So, it sounds like Fort Belknap is a contract. So, 

you guys 638 for your funding? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes. 

Ms. STANSBURY. So, the funding that you all would contract for 

would include increasing funding for salaries, recruitment, retention, hiring more officers. I am going to assume more vehicles, law 

enforcement, crime equipment, technology, et cetera. That is the 

kind of things you guys would use it for? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes, positions. We need boots on the ground. We 

need men or women that are going to stand ready to commit acts 

to protect and serve their community. 

Ms. STANSBURY. Thank you. 

Mr. ROBERGE. That is what we need. 

Ms. STANSBURY. And I will just say that we hear this from every 

single tribe across the country. I mean, it is literally the thing that 

we hear. So, I do urge my colleagues to understand that this is 

really a funding issue, that if tribes had the capacity to hire more 

folks, if they had the capacity to take on more technology, it would 

be a game-changer for a lot of our communities. 

The other piece I wanted to dig in a little bit on, and again, I 

think it is a resources issue, I am really grateful that you brought 
47 

up U.S. attorney coordination and prosecution because this is 

another issue that we hear in multiple jurisdictions. And I was 

actually just home in New Mexico this week, which is the state 

that I represent, and we also have a severe shortage within the 

Federal Government, within the Department of Justice of U.S. 

attorneys, especially in certain regions. 

And I think your testimony really spoke to the reality that the 

number of prosecutions that you are seeing is both a jurisdictional 

issue, but also it is a bandwidth issue, because these U.S. attorneys 

are also prosecuting all Federal crimes, not just crimes that involve 

tribal lands. 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes. 

Ms. STANSBURY. So, I wonder if you could just speak to that in 

the region that you all coordinate with the U.S. attorney and DOJ. 

Do you see it as a lack of available attorneys to be able to 

prosecute the cases? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes, ma’am. I believe they are completely overwhelmed. Two attorneys to seven Indian reservations in Montana 

with, I mean, I gave examples of the scope of our crime rate, and 

kind of what is on the table there for them. And imagine that with 

their plate too full. They need help. 

Ms. STANSBURY. Yes. 

Mr. ROBERGE. They do. 

Ms. STANSBURY. Well, I appreciate that. And I did want to just 

make sure we flagged that today because I think it is important 

to understand that those resources do sit not in BIA, but at the 

Department of Justice, and that that is in the direct line of duty 

under DOJ, and that they are an important component of being 

able to help address tribal needs. 

And then finally, I do want to just make a comment to address 

to the Committee. Today is primary day in New Mexico. So, happy 

Election Day. But it is also in Montana. And I thought it was a bit 

odd that we were having a witness join us who is running for 

office. And using official resources here in the Committee today to 

promote a candidate, I do not feel is an appropriate use of official 

resources. So, I did want to just address that, Mr. Chairman. And 

I do appreciate the expertise that was brought here today, but we 

do need to be cognizant that we are not to use taxpayer dollars for 

unofficial purposes. Thank you. 

Dr. GOSAR. Thank you. 

Mr. Nores, you have had a lot of experience within our national 

forests, and the growing of cannabis throughout, and the use of 

toxic chemicals. How much more decimated does the landscape 

become on these tribal entities? 

Mr. NORES. Well, with tribal lands in general, Congressman, it 

is more severe simply because our tribal police officers are so 

limited. When we work with, say, the Hoopa, as I gave examples, 

and also the Yurok Tribes, we were going into historical grow sites 

that had been there 10 years. 

When we would attack a grow site that we would find in other 

public land or, say, a private ranch, we have our entire MET team, 

we have the sheriff’s office at our disposal, we have Federal agents 

from DEA, from FBI. We can rally the troops. But our tribal partners with that division, not being able to get the local, Federal, and 
48 

state help they need to on their lands, leave a lot of those sites 

untampered. They just can’t get to them. 

So, when we did collaborate, we were finding historical grows 

that went back, like I said, a decade. So, instead of removing those 

poisons on the day of the raid, eradicating those toxically tainted 

plants that are slated for the black market and poisoning consumers for cannabis, let’s say, now those poisons are out there for 

multiple years before they are cleaned up. Usually, we will reclimate a grow site the day we raid it because of the lasting, 

egregious environmental effects on the waterways, on the wildlife, 

drinking water sources for our tribal partners and their communities. But some of that just goes continual what we call 

cumulative effects because they just don’t have the resources. 

So, I consider it far more severe, damaging, what these cartels 

are doing to our forests on tribal lands than in general what we 

can attack outside of those districts. 

Dr. GOSAR. They are smuggling in known poisons, I would say, 

into and onto these public lands and into tribal areas. Is that true? 

Mr. NORES. Yes, Congressman, they are. And these are poisons 

that were basically developed, some of the neurotoxins were 

literally in some of the Nazi chemical weapons they developed in 

World War II. They are very effective rodenticides, insecticides like 

carbofuran, metaphos, Furadan, all those trade names I mentioned. 

Yet, EPA, 20 or 30 years ago, got their study data together to 

realize they were too toxic for us to use in America on our crops. 

And one 12-ounce canister of this crystalline substance, one of 

these poisons, is made to be diluted with 5,000 to 6,000 gallons of 

water, then put on crops to keep everything off of them. 

Well, these growers, the Chinese cartels are doing this, and 

indoor grows like we talked about in last testimony, and the 

Chinese are bringing their own highly toxic insecticides and 

rodenticides that are sometimes even more deadly than the 

Mexican importation of the substances I just mentioned. But we 

can’t use them in this country, but they are available in Tijuana. 

They are sold in other parts of the of the world, primarily thirdworld countries. And they are very effective at keeping anything off 

of that cash crop or, in the case of indoor grows, more cannabis, 

as well. 

Dr. GOSAR. Do you find the cartels more aggressive on tribal 

lands? 

Mr. NORES. Absolutely, simply because they know the likelihood 

of getting any type of arrest or even being contacted, again, 

because our tribal partners are dealing with, as my partner said 

today up here, so many other crimes, public safety crimes, domestic 

violence, murders, missing people, human trafficking, the cartels 

like to target areas like that because they may not be contacted at 

all. And if they are, they are not going to have as big of a team, 

they are not going to have as many threats to being apprehended 

and/or arrested and prosecuted. 

So, absolutely, that is what we have seen in California as one 

example. And as we are seeing in my new home state of Montana 

on the fentanyl crisis, human trafficking crisis, as my colleagues 

have testified today, as well. 
49 

Dr. GOSAR. Got you. Now, I am going to ask this question of all 

three of you. Hopefully, I can ask it pretty quick, what would be 

your idea, and I know you brought up about some money, but 

creatively, so I am looking at the military experience. You have 

these SEAL teams, you have these Ranger teams that are hotshots. 

You fly them in. And could that be an option, something like that, 

where you are bringing in hotshot law enforcement, and you are 

bringing an attorney with them, a couple attorneys or whatever? 

Do you think that could work? 

Or, you know, it would definitely kind of throw things off the 

ball. But Chief Roberge, what do you think? Or is there something 

in your mind you see differently? 

Mr. ROBERGE. Yes, Chairman Gosar. I don’t believe dropping an 

operational detachment alpha into our area and having them infiltrate would suffice at this point. We are kind of seeing them come 

in, do their operation, and then go out. Very rarely nowadays do 

we have them actually establishing that foothold in Fort Belknap. 

They are in Crow and other reservations like that. 

I think if they were infiltrated, and I don’t want to give up a 

covert-type operation like that over the public or media, but if they 

were infiltrated with one of their own, that is the only way we are 

going to take them down. I don’t know if we will ever really take 

them down, but we could put a cap on them. That is how we are 

going to do it, is infiltration. 

Ms. ZINN. That would work for our places like Billings and 

Bozeman because we have cartels there. So, you can do that type 

of operation in that type of city. But on the reservations, he is 

correct. They are touch and go, except for my last case, they were 

actually more overt and trying to grow roots in the Crow 

Reservation. 

But DEA has done those types of operations, and it is hit and 

miss. What you do need is more permanent boots on the ground for 

all the three little alphabet soup that is going to be there permanently so they know the players and they know when and where 

and how. 

Dr. GOSAR. John? 

Mr. NORES. I agree, we need more boots on the ground that are 

staying in place. We noticed that when we formed up the 

Marijuana Enforcement Team. We had had so many officerinvolved shootings, so many near-death experiences as officers. 

When we dedicated a unit of 12 special operators as game wardens, 

and we could stay dedicated to just that fight throughout the whole 

state of California, now we are making a much bigger dent. We 

were going home safe, first and foremost, but we were documenting 

the damages. 

We need that type of presence, like my partners just said, 

embedded throughout Montana and really any other state having 

this problem. We know it is border to border, left, right, east, west, 

north, south. But with that, I think we need the counseling, the 

education, educating our children on the fentanyl crisis, what to 

detect, human trafficking, target indicators because these 

polycriminals are dealing in so many crimes that threaten every 

American from one threat or another, whether it is fentanyl, 

whether it is tainted cannabis, human trafficking on tribal lands 
50 

and beyond. It is the No. 1 national priority I think we need to deal 

with administratively from all levels, but especially keeping enough 

enforcement embedded in all of our states to have a real presence 

and have an actual deterrence on these cartels and the evil they 

present. 

Dr. GOSAR. This also shows that Canada is not all the friendlies 

that we think they are. 

Mr. NORES. Correct. 

Dr. GOSAR. I thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony 

and the Members for their questions. The members of the 

Committee may have additional questions for the witnesses, and 

we will ask you to respond to these in writing. Under Committee 

Rule 3, members of the Committee must submit questions to the 

Subcommittee Clerk by 5 p.m. on June 7. The hearing record will 

be held open for 10 business days for these responses. 

If there is no further business, without objection, the 

Subcommittee stands adjourned. 

[Whereupon, at 3:55 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] 
51 

[ADDITIONAL MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD]

Submission for the Record by Rep. Gosar 

Statement for the Record 

Frank Star Comes 

President of the Oglala Sioux Tribe 

My name is Frank Star Comes Out, and I am the President of the Oglala Sioux 

Tribe (OST). The OST home, the Pine Ridge Reservation, is the third-largest 

reservation in the United States, stretching over 3.1 million acres, similar to the 

State of Connecticut. As of February 14, 2023, the Tribe has an enrolled membership of 51,460, an on-reservation law enforcement service population of more than 

40,000, and 52 separate residential communities. 

I am a former Marine, so forgive me, but my comments tend to be rather blunt. 

The time for politically correct statements has long since passed. I have human 

beings who are being killed and seriously hurt, and as the duly elected leader of 

the Tribe and a former military officer, I take that very seriously. So, for me, this 

is not just about a federal program; it’s about American citizens. For this reason, 

I would like to focus my testimony on the impact that twenty-five years of federal 

neglect, coupled with the influx of illegal drugs and the violence that comes with 

them, have had on my community. 

In FY 2021, we had around 138,000 calls for police service and only 33 officers 

to respond to those calls over an area spanning 3.1 million acres, which is larger 

than the states of Delaware and Rhode Island combined. That was around 5–7 

officers per shift, covering 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, because 

we have exclusive federal/tribal criminal jurisdiction over our Pine Ridge Indian 

Reservation. 

Things have only gotten worse since then. For example, in FY2023, we had over 

165,799 calls for police service, and we had only 30 patrol officers. Along with other 

crimes, these calls reported 1133 assaults, 449 cases of child abuse, 1,245 cases of 

domestic violence, 589 gun-involved crimes, and 343 cases of the most serious drugs. 

Just between October 1, 2022, and February 2023, we have had 8 homicides, 8 

violent rapes, and another 299 serious cases of child abuse. Now I ask you, how 

would you deploy those 3–5 officers per shift to cover the area I just described, 

especially under those circumstances? 

Due to our extreme shortage of officers, our average response time is and has 

been, between 30 minutes and an hour. Not to mention, our officers continue to 

work alone, with backup being around 30 minutes away, even when the alleged 

perpetrator has a loaded weapon. To quote my Chief of Police, ‘‘30 minutes is a long 

time when you are alone and facing a group of well-armed criminals who are trying 

to kill you.’’ Our tribal officers’ experiences are consistent with Director LaCounte’s 

testimony; they are often alone, outmanned, and outgunned. 

Mr. Chairman, to answer one of your questions, we already have a good working 

relationship with the FBI, but the reality is that they are over 90 miles away, and 

they openly admit that they are not organized to be first responders. 

Further, to answer your question about more US Attorneys, additional US 

Attorneys will help with federal criminal prosecutions. But please remember that 

in order to bring a successful criminal prosecution in federal court, you also need 

federally acceptable evidence and the ability to fully investigate a crime. Experience 

has taught us that this generally does not happen when the police response is 30 

minutes or longer like ours is: witnesses have left the scene, the victims have been 

transported, and the perpetrators are long gone. 

Many well-intended people regularly suggest more protective orders and banishments, and I fully support the theory behind both. Unfortunately, without the practical police power to enforce those orders, it is like asking a group of armed bank 

robbers to please leave the bank. It is not likely to happen. 

I am also aware of this Subcommittee’s discussions about jurisdictional issues, 

and I, and the other Great Plains Tribes, strongly support legislation to return full 

criminal jurisdiction to our local tribal police by fixing the Oliphant Decision. I also 

supported the recently enacted VAWA, child protection, and domestic violence legislation, which increased tribal jurisdiction. However, without the federally backed 

funding to implement them, for us, these additional authorizations are merely 

unfunded mandates. 

Finally, when you think about law enforcement jurisdiction challenges, I would 

like to make three important points: First, I defy anyone in this room to tell by a 
52 

person’s voice, or many times even by their appearance, if they are or are not 

Indian. Second, the FBI, DEA, or Homeland Security cannot travel the 90 miles 

from their headquarters in Rapid City, South Dakota, to Pine Ridge in less than 

an hour, no matter what they are driving. Third, as Mr. LaCounte pointed out, 

Congress thinks that jurisdictional complexities are implemented before an investigation, but that is not true; they come after an assault or weapon-related attack, 

not before. Tribal law enforcement does not ask a victim if they are a tribal member 

before responding to a crime; they act. It is that simple. 

Finally, Congress and the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) have already attempted 

a strike force approach to resolving this problem, but while it sounds good, I ask 

you to please look at the actual data collected at the Standing Rock Reservation a 

few years ago. Congress sent in a large group of well-trained officers, and crime 

went down. Then the money ran out, and they left, and crime went right back up 

again. Drug dealers are not stupid; they know how to wait out a strike force. It is 

like putting a band-aid on a cancer lesion; it may feel better temporarily, but it is 

not a solution. 

Many members of this Committee, specifically Congressman Bentz, have discouraged tribal leaders from requesting more resources because you may think boots on 

the ground will not solve the problem or a problem with turnover. At Oglala, several 

officers have served in our tribal law enforcement services for over 20 years. It is 

important to emphasize that the cheapest part of a tribal law enforcement program 

is officer salaries. It is federally mandated equipment, gas, insurance, vehicles, and 

vehicle maintenance, which costs around $175,000 per officer/year at government 

procurement rates that must be acknowledged and covered. Believe me, our officers 

are not overpaid. Most make between $60,000–$70,000 a year, working 60 hours a 

week in extremely dangerous conditions with virtually useless benefits. 

Last year, we presented the House Appropriations Subcommittee with our 

federally mandated law enforcement equipment list and the prices we faced. 

Nothing on that list is not a critical law enforcement item (car, gas, vest, gun, handcuffs, etc.). The OMB and Congress set these prices, competitive bid processes, and 

mandates, so we cannot do anything about them. Under your rules, we must buy 

from the public market, just like the other federal agencies do. Believe me, we 

stretch every penny. So, we either pay or go without gasoline, police car repairs and 

upkeep, and federally required insurance. I certainly cannot send an officer 40 miles 

on a bicycle. So, when you talk about not increasing resources, please consider that 

we do not drive our associated costs; OMB and congressional mandates do. 

In the mid-1980s, the federal government provided enough resources to the Oglala 

Sioux Tribe to employ 130 officers before cartels, opioids, and fentanyl; we are now 

down to 30. So, how many resources do you want to underfund? So, when you ask 

how much the Tribe received from that $700M law enforcement increase you referenced last year, my answer is simple. After the BIA and the private sector took 

their cut and inflation kicked in, it was just barely enough to keep going at the 

current level and a little more. 

Our officers can easily drive around 30,000 miles a month. That is over double 

what an average driver adds to their odometer in a year. To understand our situation, please consider what you paid for a new car 20 years ago and what you would 

have to pay for that same car today. That is our very practical problem. 

If you look at the BIA’s annual reports to your Subcommittee, you will see its 

admission that we are funded at 15% of actual need. That is fifteen (15%), not 50%. 

That is why we ask for a budget correction to bring us up to par with what we had 

25 years ago. When Director Lacounte said that BIA is at the bottom of the pecking 

order of federal law enforcement services, I 100% agree. It is time for Congress to 

put its wallet where its mouth is and commit to funding public safety and law 

enforcement services in Indian Country. 

How did tribal law enforcement become so underfunded? 

In the late 1990s, this Congress, in fact, this Committee, passed the first Indian 

Law Enforcement statute. That statute mandated the creation of the BIA Office of 

Justice Service (OJS) and afforded it certain mandatory responsibilities. Other 

federal laws have been added to this mandate. Those responsibilities were not, and 

are not discretionary; they are established by existing federal law. 

Unfortunately, when these mandates were established, neither Congress nor any 

Administration calculated what these additional mandates would cost to fulfill. One 

mandate in particular, the federal mandate of 2.8 officers per 1,000 service population necessary to fulfill the essential governmental function, was never calculated. 

Instead, the BIA created the OJS with just the money it was spending in 1999, 

ignoring the fact that most larger tribes, like ours, were receiving 70% of law 

enforcement funding from grants provided by the Department of Justice (DOJ). 
53 

When those DOJ grants expired after OJS was created, Congress never replaced 

that funding to BIA to fulfill the now underfunded law enforcement programs for 

tribes. The result is that we lost 70% of our funding in the three years that it took 

to sunset those grants. After that, inflation took over, and OST law enforcement 

went from the 130 federally funded officers it had at the end of the 1990s to the 

30 patrol officers it has today. Nothing will change unless and until Congress fixes 

that base funding and supplements the funding formerly provided to tribes by the 

DOJ to BIA. We know a budget correction can probably not be done in the next 

year, but without it, you will continue to see a rise in crime because of the lack of 

officers on the ground. 

As to federal strike forces, the Standing Rock Tribe strike force and the US 

military have both demonstrated that more enforcement leads to less crime. Passing 

more unfunded mandates will not have that same impact at Pine Ridge. I, for one, 

am tired of hearing federal witnesses testifying at your hearings about how seriously they take their treaty and trust responsibility to keep us safe. I ask you if 

what I described about my reservation—the amount of police calls; the amount of 

crime—is this a safe community for any American. 

I will close by saying this. This House will make up the FY 2025 budget in less 

than 60 days, so the ball is in your court. I respectfully ask you to please raise that 

base budget from 15% currently funded to at least 50% of the $3.2 billion needed. 

While more hearings and better planning are important, my people are being 

injured and killed today, and quite honestly, we need to address what is already 

on the ground. As was evidenced by our brother tribes in Montana, both Democratic 

and Republican Administrations have studied this issue to death; now, we need 

Congress to fully fund tribal law enforcement programs. 

Thank you, Wopila. 

Æ