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HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON

RULES AND ADMINISTRATION

UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGHTY-EIGHTH CONGRESS

FIRST AND SECOND SESSIONS

PURSUANT TO

S. Res. 212 and S. Res. 291

RESOLUTIONS AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE

FINANCIAL OR BUSINESS INTERESTS OF ANY OFFICER OR

EMPLOYEE OR FORMER OFFICER OR EMPLOYEE OF THE

SENATE

FEBRUARY 17, 1964

PART 7

Testimony of William N. McLeod, Jr.

Printed for the use of the

Committee on Rules and Administration

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

27-211 WASHINGTON : 1964

.040

7.t itionAs
COMMITTEE ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION

B. EVERETT JORDAN, North Carolina, Chairman

CARL IIAYDEN, Arizona CARL T. CURTIS, Nebraska

HOWARD W. CANNON, Nevada JOHN SHERMAN COOPER, Kentucky

CLAIBORNE FELL, Rhode Island HUGH SCOTT, Pennsylvania

JOSEPH S. CLARK, Pennsylvania

ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia

GORDON F. HARRISON, staff Director

HUGH Q. ALEXANDER, Chief Counsel

SPECIAL STAFF FOR THE PURPOSES OF SENATE RESOLUTION 212 AND SENATE

RESOLUTION 291

LENNox P. MCLENDON, General Counsel

W. ELLIS MEEHAN, Chief Investigator

BURKETT VAN KIRK, Associate Counsel (Minority)

JAMES H. DUFFY, Associate Counsel

[Executive hearing of February 17, 1964, released to the public February 25,

1964.]

II
Testimony of William N. McLeod, Jr 

•

FINANCIAL OR BUSINESS INTERESTS OF OFFICERS

OR EMPLOYEES OF THE SENATE

MONDAY, FEBRUARY 17, 1964

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION,

Washington,D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 4:15 p.m., in room 301,

Old Senate Office Building, Senator Howard W. Cannon presiding.

Present: Senators Cannon, Pell, Curtis, and Cooper.

Also present: Gordon F. Harrison, staff director; Hugh Alexander,

chief counsel; L. P. McLendon, general counsel; Burkett Van Kirk,

associate counsel; James Duffy, associate counsel; William B. Whitley,

staff assistant to Senator Jordan; Walter Mote, professional staff

member; William Ellis 

Meehan, 

investigator; and Alice Clark, staff.

Mr. MCLENDON. Call William McLeod.

Senator CANNON. A quorum being present, the committee will please

come to order.

The committee is acting by direction and under the authority of

Senate Resolution 212, agreed to October 10, 1963, and Senate Resolution 291, agreed to February 10,1964.

Senate Resolution 212 authorizes and directs the Senate Committee

on Rules and Administration—

to make a study and investigation with respect to any financial or business

interests or activities of any officer or employee or former officer or employee of

the Senate, for the purposes of ascertaining—

(1) Whether any such interests or activities have involved conflicts of interest

or other improprieties; and

(2) Whether any additional laws, rules, or regulations are necessary or

desirable for the purpose of prohibiting or restricting any such interests or

activities.

Witnesses have been interviewed by the staff and heard both in

executive and in public sessions. Considerable evidence has been obtained and testimony received to date.

Witnesses who have appeared previously, or who will be called in

the future, possess information which the committee believes is

material and pertinent to the provisions of the resolutions or direction

and authorization, and which will aid the committee in fulfilling its

legislative purposes.

The Chair advises each witness that he is entitled under the rules

of procedure of the committee to retain and be accompanied by counsel.

The counsel may advise the witness of his legal rights during the course

of his testimony. Should the witness not fully understand any question, the witness might ask for clarification. Counsel, however, shall

not coach the witness or answer for the witness.

The committee will now proceed to hear the testimony.

579
580 FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES

Mr. McLeod, if you will stand, place your hand on the Bible.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this com- mittee will be the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help

you God?

Mr. McLEoD. I do.

Senator CANNON. Counsel, you may proceed.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM N. McLEOD,

Mr. MCLENDON. Will you state your full name and your residence

Mr. MoDLEoD. William N. McLeod, Jr., 3846 Macomb Street NW., Washington.

Mr. MCLENDON. Are you accompanied by your counsel?

Mr. McLEoD. No,sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. You understand you have a right to have counsel,

do you not?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. You have elected not to have counsel?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. 

Yes,

position did you hold in the Government in

1960?

Mr. McLEoD. I was clerk in the House District Committee.

Mr. MCLENDON. How long had you occupied that position?

Mr. McLEoD. About 23 or 24 years.

I beg your pardon. I was in the House of Representatives a period

of 23 to 24 years. I was clerk for the committee for about 17 years,

under both Republicans and Democrats.

Mr. MCLENDON. Did that committee have anything to do with the

act of Congress authorizing the construction of the District of Columbia Stadium?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes sir; they had everything to do with it.

Mr. MCLENDON. Will you describe it briefly?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, it would take an awful long time.

Mr. MCLENDON. I do not mean all. Just give us the highlights.

How long was the bill pending?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, the first worked on the bill in the fall

of 1956, until Congressman Harris of Arkansas got back into town.

He introduced the bill on January 5, 1957. That was H.R. 1937.

Mr. MCLENDON. How long was it pending before the Congress before it was finally passed?

Mr. McLEoD. The first bill passed—there were several amendments

to the bill. The first bill passed on September 7, 1957, Public Law

85-300. Then there was another amendment, H.R. 12162, which

passed the House and the Senate, and became Public Law 85-561.

Mr. MCLENDON. When was the final act passed under which the

contract was awarded for the construction of the stadium?

Mr. McLEoD. The final act was passed on September 23, 1959, Public

Law 86-378.

Mr. MCLENDON. Did you have any personal interest in that legislation?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I had a great deal of interest in it. I was the

first one that ever got started on it.
FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES 581

Mr. MCLENDON. I could not understand you.

Mr. McLEoD. I had a great deal of interest in it.

I, with the help of George Marshall, the president of the Redskins,

and a firm in New York, Pragen, Cavanaugh, & Waterbury, first

got interested in the stadium, and I went down to the White House

to see Sherman Adams and President Eisenhower. They asked what

I wanted them to do. And I told them I wanted them to get the

Secretary of the Treasury and the Secretary of Interior to cooperate

with us. And either Sherman Adams or President Eisenhower picked

up the phone to call both of them and ask them to do anything they

could within the law to help with the construction of the stadium.

Mr. MCLENDON. Was your activity in behalf of the bill because of

any personal interest, financial or otherwise, you had in it?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. What was your interest?

Mr. McLEoD. My interest was just in doing something for the city,

and my interest was also because of the fact that Congressman Harris

of Arkansas was so very interested in it himself, and had been interested in the stadium bill for 20 or 25 years.

Mr. MCLENDON. At that time did you know Robert G. Baker?

Mr. McLEoD. I do not think I did at that time; no, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. Did you ever talk with him about this pending

legislation?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir; never.

Mr. MCLENDON. Did you have any knowledge that he was active at

all in behalf of the legislation?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I understand he was, because when the final—

this final bill came up, it passed the House. Then it was sent to the

Senate. And the Senate amended it. It went back to the House.

In the closing days of whatever Congress that was,—the 86th Congress—and the only way they could get it up on the floor of the House

was by unanimous consent. And Mr. Gross objected to calling it up

by unanimous consent. And that was where the real controversy came

up.

At that time I was in Copenhagen, Denmark. There were several

conferences between Congressman McMillan and Senator Bible. Senator Bible finally asked that—the Senate, on September 14—the Senate requested the return of the bill.

The bill was returned to the Senate and the Senate reconsidered and

accepted it as it had passed the House originally.

Mr. MCLENDON. My question was, what part, if any, did Baker

play?

Mr. McLEoD. I do not know, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. You said you understood he was interested in it.

What do you mean by that?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I understood from Reynolds that he had—when

this difficulty came up in the Senate and the House, about not agreeing to this thing, that he had done something to help. I do not know

what.

Mr. MCLENDON. How did you happen to be talking to Reynolds?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I talked to Reynolds quite often. I had known

him.
582 FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES

Mr. MCLENDON. What did he have to do with the legislation?

Mr. McLEoD. Mr. Reynolds?

He had nothing to do with it.

Mr. MCLENDON. Well, why was he interested in it?

Mr. McLEoD. I do not know, sir, why he was interested in it. I did

not know he had any real interest in it until after I came back from

Denmark, and then I think when the bill finally passed he thought he might have some chance of getting the overall insurance contract.

Mr. MCLENDON. Well, I understood you to say that Reynolds told

you something about Baker's activities.

Mr. McLEoD. He did.

Mr. MCLENDON. What did he tell you?

Mr. McLEoD. He just told me that he had called on Baker to help him.

Mr. MCLENDON. To help get the bill passed in the Senate?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. no you have any other information that Baker was active in connection with the legislation?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. You say you never talked to Baker about it?

Mr. McLEoD. About the stadium?

Mr. MCLENDON. Yes—about the bill.

Mr. McLEoD. I suppose I have talked to half the people in Washington about the bill at some time.

Mr. MCLENDON. I am asking about Baker. Did you ever talk to

Baker?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir I never talked to Baker.

Mr. MCLENDON. Now, did you attend a conference in Mr. Baker's

office sometime in the spring of 1960?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I have said before—and right at this point I

would like to say that I came here voluntarily, as you know.

Mr. MCLENDON. I know you did.

Mr. McLEoD. And I would also like to say that the Federal Bureau

investigators came to see me. I have told them the.story. And I asked

that they put me under oath before I testified.

Mr. MCLENDON. You mean FBI agents?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes.

Mr. MCLENDON. You already told them what I am asking you now,

about this meeting?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

I told them, and they reduced my statement to writing, and I signed it. Now, they asked me not to release the statement to anyone.

Mr. MCLENDON. I am not asking you for the statement. I am just asking 

Mr. McLEoD. You are going to get the statement. You are going

to get the sum and substance of what I said.

Mr. MCLENDON. That is all right. I am not asking for the statement. You just tell us what the facts are.

Mr. McLEoD. Where was I when I left off?

Mr. MCLENDON. I asked you about the meeting.

Mr. Wixom Yes, I did attend a meeting in Baker's office.
FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES 583

Mr. MCLENDON. Who was present?

Mr. McLEoD. Mr. Matt McCloskey was there, who was treasurer of

the Democratic National Committee, one of his vice presidents was

there from Philadelphiar—I do not remember his name—I never saw

either one of them before; Don Reynolds was there, Congressman John

McMillan, and myself, and Baker.

Mr. MCLENDON. Who called the meeting, if it was called?

Mr. McLEoD. Baker called the meeting.

Mr. MCLENDON. Did he phone you and invite you to the meeting?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. Do you know whether he phoned Congressman

McMillan?

Mr. McLEoD. I do not know. But I talked to McMillan and told

him I had been asked to come over to the meeting and asked if he

knew what it was about.

He said "No," he did not.

I asked him if I should go. And he said he could see no harm in

my going. In fact, I think I walked over to the meeting with him.

Mr. McLENtxm. What happened when you got there?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I do not know. We just sat there looking at

each other like a bunch of damn fools. I do not know what I was

doing there, to tell you the truth.

Mr. McLENDoN. What happened?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, they discussed the stadium some, and then they

went into a discussion of insurance in case McCloskey got the bid.

And of course the bids were let—I believe there were about 13 or 14

bids.

Mr. MCLENDON. Had the bids been let at that time, or been received at that time?

Mr. MoLEoD. No, sir; the bids were not let until up in 1960, I

believe.

Mr. MCLENDON. How long after this meeting in Baker's office was

it the bids were received?

Can you tell us?

Mr. MoLEoD. Yes, sir. I have all the information here.

The bids on the construction were let on June 10, 1960. The bond

was set on July 7, and was awarded on July 17, 1960, the performance

bond was awarded on July 7, 1960, by the Aetna Casualty & Surety

Co., and Thomas G. McCloskey signed for Matt McCloskey's firm.

I believe he was a son or nephew.

Mr. MCLENDON. That is July what?

Mr. MoLEoD. July 7.

(At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

Mr. MCLENDON. July 7, 1960?

Mr. MoLEoD. Yes sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. All right.

Do you recall, and can you tell the committee anything said about

the bond in this meeting that you had?

Mr. MoLEoD. I am not sure, but I do not think there was any question of the bond even coming up.

Mr. MCLENDON. You used the word "insurance" a while ago, did

you not

27-211--64—pt. 7-2
584 FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES

Mr. McLEoD. I am speaking now of the overall insurance. I am

not speaking of a performance bond. A man has got to get a contract

before he is in a position to furnish the performance bond.

Mr. MCLENDON. Well, what insurance were you talking about?

Mr. McLEoD. The overall insurance.

Mr. MCLENDON. That the contractor would be required to have?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

(At this point, Senator Cooper reentered the hearing room.)

Mr. MCLENDON. After that, Mr. McLeod, did you receive payment

of money from Mr. Reynolds?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. I ShOW you 

Mr. McLEoD. I have a copy of that right here, Mr. McLendon, I

think.

Mr. MCLENDON. You have a copy of Reynolds testimony there

before you?

Mr. McLEoD. If you just tell me the page.

Mr. MCLENDON. Beg pardon?

Mr. McLEoD. Just tell me the page.

Mr. MCLENDON. Look at page 7 first.

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. Then on page 8 it gives what is a bill from you, on

your stationery:

William McLeod, Jr., attorney at law, for legal services, January 1, 1961,

through June 30, 1961, $1,000.

Did you render that bill to Don Reynolds?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. At a later time, on page 17, appears another bill,

dated July 15, 1961.

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. Reading the same way?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. Are both of those copies of bills that you made and

rendered to Don Reynolds?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes sir; they are.

Mr. MCLENDON. i\TOW, the first one, on page 8, contains the words

"Received payment by check, 1370, signed 'William McCloskey' ," is

that correct?

Mr. MCLEOD. That is right.

Mr. MCLENDON. You did receive it?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. The second one, on page 17, also shows a receipt

of $500—not the amount of the bill, but $500. Did you receive the

$500?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. What were these bills for, Mr. McLeod?

Mr. McLEoD. It was a gift to me from Don Reynolds.

Mr. MCLENDON. I beg your pardon?

Mr. McLEoD. It was a gift.

Mr. MCLENDON. Why would you render a bill for a gift?

Mr. McLEoD. Because he asked me to do it that way, to bill him.

Mr. MCLENDON. Suppose you just tell the committee all the circumstances.
FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES 585

Mr. McLEoD. Well, some time after Christmas prior to this time,

Don Reynolds came to me and told me that he had done quite well, his

insurance firm. He talked to his bookkeeper. He had a surplus of

money. And I had done so much for him over the period of 20 years

or so that he wanted to do something for me. And I told him it was

not necessary.

He said he wanted to give me this money. I said it is not necessary,

and I do not expect it.

He said, "Well, if you do not do it, I will get you something maybe

you do not want. So you might just as well do it.'

He knew I had two children to educate. So he insisted that I do it.

And I made this bill up, and he paid it to me.

Mr. MCLENDON. Why did you make a bill?

Mr. McLEoD. Sir?

Mr. MCLENDON. Why did you make a bill?

Mr. McLEoD. Because he asked me to do it that way.

Mr. MCLENDON. - What did he say about that?

Mr. McLEoD. He said he talked to his bookkeeper and he thought

that would be the best way to do it.

Mr. MCLENDON. You are saying that Reynolds told you that he,

Reynolds, had talked to his bookkeeper and that he wanted you to send

bills for $1,000?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes,sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. And then he was going to pay the bills, which

would be $2,000?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. But that it was a gift?

Mr. McLEoD. That is right yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. Well, had you rendered any legal services?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir I had not.

Now, getting back to the second check 

(At this point, Senator Pell left the hearing room.)

Mr. McLEoD (continuing) . Around Christmas he seemed to be

pretty well loaded with money, from the way he talked to me. But

when it came time in July, or sometime after July, for the other one,

he said that things had gotten bad, and he was not nearly as well off

as he thought he was, and he could not pay this thousand dollars.

I said just forget about it—"You do not really owe me anything

anyway. You gave it to me. Just forget about it."

He said, "No, I will tell you what I will do. I will give you a check

for $500, and the rest of it will be given to you as soon as I can."

Of course I never got the rest of it. I told him to forget about it.

.lnd apparently he did forget about it.

Senator CURTIS. May I ask a question.

What do you mean, the rest of it?

Mr. McLEoD. It was a bill for a thousand dollars, Senator Curtis,

and he only paid $500 of it.

Senator Cuirrfs. - I thought it was a gift. 4tit

Mr. McLEoD. It was a gift.

Senator CuRns. Well, if something is a gift, I i not derstan

the language—"the rest of it."

Mr. McLEoD. Well, $500 was a gift. I am not ting ttly.

Senator CuRns. Forget the rest of what?
586 FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES

Mr. McLEoD. The rest of the amount he was going to pay me—a

thousand dollars.

Senator CuRm. Why was he going to pay you that?

Mr. McLEoD. That is what he agreed to give me.

Senator awns. You had an agreement that he would give you

$2,000?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, Sir.

I am sorry. I thought you understood that.

Mr. MCLENDON. Let me see if we all understand it.

The bills were not really for services rendered, is what you testified?

Mr. McLEoD. The bills were not for any kind of services rendered.

I never rendered any service for Don Reynolds in my life, to his family

or in an insurance way or any other way. I never asked anybody to

give Don Reynolds an insurance policy. I was not in a position to

award a performance bond or a contract—insurance contract—because

they were let by sealed bids, and opened by the Armory Board.

Mr. MCLENDON. Did you have anything to do with awarding the

contract to McCloskey?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir.

Mr. MoLENDoN. Did you have anything to do with getting the

bond through Reynolds?

Mr. McLEoD. No,sir; nothing.

Mr. MCLENDON. Did you know anything about it at the time?

Mr. McLEoD. I knew it after it was over, of course. I was in the

board room when they opened these bids.

Mr. MCLENDON. Did you know—when did you discover that Reynolds had something to do with writing the bond?

Mr. McLEoD. On the date that the bond was awarded.

Mr. MCLENDON. Did you have any conversation with Reynolds

about it?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir; I did not see him. He was not at that meeting. It was just the members of the stadium board, Armory board,

and the stadium advisory committee were there.

Senator CURTIS. If I may ask a question.

As soon as the bids were opened, and McCloskey got the bid, then

you knew Reynolds would get the performance bond?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I did not know he would get it; no, sir. But

I did know after that he did get it.

Senator CURTIS. I thought you said that you knew as soon as 

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I guess I assumed he would get it, because I

knew he had been trying to get it.

Mr. MCLENDON. Will you look at page 12, Mr. McLeod?

Mr. McLEoD. All right.

Mr. MCLENDON. You find a question there that I asked him:

As the invoices do not say it was for legal services in connection with the

District of Columbia Stadium, was there any doubt about that at the time the

invoices were received?

And Reynolds answered:

I would like to'

I said to him

Go ahead.

ace by a simple statement, sir.
FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES 587

Now, read what he said there, because I want to ask you if that is

correct.

Mr. Maxon (reading) :

I have known Bill McLeod for maybe 20 years. We are from the same district in South Carolina. Many times in having known Bill, he has helped me

to obtain tickets for sports events for clients, myself, and on occasion I have asked

him if he could help expedite some technical help for some person not remotely

connected with me or him, and a procedure thing that is a time element in the

District of Columbia.

Mr. MCLENDON. Read on to the next paragraph.

Mr. McLEop (continuing) :

So in a true sense the $1,500 that was given to him as a compromise, sir, represented what I considered some sort of reward for having tried to help me over

a period of years, sir, when I was in no position to help people, to give final

remuneration, sir, as well as extensive effort in helping the bill go through the

House.

Mr. MCLENDON. Now, he makes reference there to your helping the

bill, the stadium bill, go through the House.

Mr. McLEoD. Well, of course, he may have appreciated my getting

the bill through the House. I know a lot of people appreciated it.

I know a lot of taxpayers that do not appreciate it. But it certainly

was never mentioned to me before that he was interested in me helping

him. And that is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of, that I

would take a check and endorse it and put it in two of my children's

accounts for $1,500 for lobbying a $21 million bill through Congress.

That does not make sense.

Mr. MCLENDON. Well, that is exactly the question I wanted to ask

you.

Did you render any service in connection with that legislation for

which you felt that you were entitled to payment?

Mr. McLEop. No, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. Did you ever ask Reynolds to pay you?

Mr. McLEoD. I never asked anybody to pay me.

Mr. MCLENDON. And you maintain that this money that he paid you

was just a gift?

Mr. McLEop. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. All right. That is all.

Senator CURTIS. Who all was present at that meeting in Baker's

office?

Mr. McLEon. Mr. McCloskey, one of his vice presidents from Philadelphia—I do not remember his name sir I never saw him before and

never saw him since—Congressman McMillan, Reynolds, myself, and

Baker. And the meeting -still nobody knows exactly when the meeting was. Some people say in the spring or the early part of 1960. But

I am not too sure that it was not in the fall of 1959.

Senator CURTIS. Anybody else in that crowd get any gifts?

Mr. McLEoD. I do not know, sir.

Senator CuEns. You do not know about Baker getting $4,000?

Mr. McLEop. Well, I saw the check in here. I do not know what it

was for.

Senator CURTIS. But you did get the money?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. You say it is a gift?

Mr. McLEop. Yes, sir.
588 FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES

Senator Cuirris. No services rendered?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir.

Senator CURTIS. And it did come after he wrote the performance

bond?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir.

Yes, you are right. The performance bond was signed on July

7, 1960. But it had nothing to do with performance bond, because

I could not have persuaded a man like Matt McCloskey, a man I never

had seen before. I would have been a stupid ass to even ask the man

to do it.

Senator Cuwrts. What discussion took place at that meeting?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, we talked about—as I said, we talked about

insurance. I do not remember.

Senator Clams. What did you say about insurance?

Mr. McLEoD. I did not say anything.

Senator Cuirns. Who talked about insurance?

Mr. McLEoD. Baker started off talking.

Matt McCloskey said something about he was trying to get the bid,

hoped he would get it. And Mr. McMiller spoke up and said that

Reynolds was his constituent, from his district in South Carolina, and

that if there was any way they could help him get any insurance on the

building, or on the stadium, he would appreciate anything anybody

could do to help him.

Senator Cuirms. What did Baker say?

Mr. McLEoD. I do not remember what he said, sir.

Senator CURTIS. What did McCloskey say?

Mr. McLEoD. Mack had very little to say, except that he was going

to try to get the bid, and he thought— he was pretty sure he would

be able to get it, because he said it was a contract involving a lot of

cement work, and he said that was his experience.

Senator CURTIS. He has gotten quite a few bids around town.

Mr. McLEoD. Sir?

Senator Cuirris. He has done a lot of work in the District of Columbia.

Mr. McLEoD. Mack?

Senator Cuirris. Yes.

• Mr. McLEoD. Well, I think everywhere you go you see his name

and McShain's plastered over the buildings; yes, sir.

Senator C-uwris. You did not know him until this building?

• Mr. McLEoD. Never saw him before in my life.

Senator CURTIS. But you had known Reynolds for some years?

Mr. McLEoD. I had known him since I came to Washington. I did

not know him in South Carolina even though we lived about 14 miles

apart. I first met him in McMillan's office, when I came here with

McMillan.

Senator Cuirris. Do you not think a gift of $1,500 is quite a sizable

gift?

Mr. MoLEoD. No sir; I do not think so. I think 

Senator Curtns. Is it your contention that a gift for $1,500 just

between friends is not a sizable thing?

Mr. McLEoD. Is not what, sir?

Senator CURTIS. Is not a sizable gift?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I think—it is a nice gift.
4

FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES 589

Senator CURTIS. Well, it is a pretty good-sized one, is it not?

Mr. McLEop. Well, maybe you call it pretty good-sized. But in this

town, I do not know.

Senator CURTIS. How does it compare with other gifts?

Mr. McLEop. Sir?

Senator CURTIS. How does it compare to other gifts?

Mr. McLEon. Well, I do not know. I got a gift last year, since

I left, in the amount of a thousand dollars.

Senator CURTIS. Was that from anyone doing business with the

Government directly or indirectly?

Mr. McLain. I am not going to tell you who it is. I will pass it

around and let the members of the committee see it.

Senator Cuirns. I am somewhat surprised at your statement that

you do not regard a gift of $1,500 as quite a significant and good-sized

gift.

Mr. McLEop. Well, I tell you Don Reynolds was a funny fellow.

He was very generous. When he had the money he threw it around.

Under the circumstances, I do not think so no.

Senator CURTIS. You had an agreement for $2,000?

Mr. McLzop. Yes, sir.

(At this point Senator Pell reentered the hearing room.)

Senator Cuirris. Where was the agreement entered into?

Mr. McLEon. In my offce.

Senator CURTIS, Who was present?

Mr. McLEop. Nobody but Reynolds and myself.

- Senator CURTIS. Who mentioned $2,000?

Mr. McLzoD. He did.

Senator CURTIS. What did you say?

Mr. McLEop. I testified a moment ago that I did not want to take it

in the beginning.

Senator CURTIS. What did you say as to the amount?

Mr. McLEop. I did not say anything about the amount. He insisted

it be $2,000.

Senator CURTIS. And it did not occur to you that that was an unusual

gift?

Mr. McLEce. No, sir I do not think so, and in the way Reynolds

does things. Now I might consider a dollar too much from him. But

at that time 

SenatorCuivris. Leaving Reynolds' financial position out, here you

are, an employee of the U.S. Government. Somebody gives you $1,500.

And you state that you do not regard that as an unusual gift. And

you made reference to "not the way things go on in Washington."

Well, I do not like that very much. I know a lot of very fine men

and women working in this building and the other buildings around

here that are not taking any gifts. And I regard a $1,500 gift as

far 'different from some remembrance of a box of cigars, some candy,

or something like that.

Mr. MoLzop. Well, it all depends on your point of view, I suppose.

Senator Comas. I rather imagine that is true. I am rather surprised at your point of view.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?

Senator CANNON. Senator Cooper.
590 FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES

Senator COOPER. You made the statement—I may not get the exact

words—something like, considering the way that Reynolds threw

money around. You said something like that?

Mr. McLEoD. I said he was a very generous fellow. When he had

money 

Senator COOPER. Do you know of any gifts he made to any other

employees of the House or Senate?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. You say you made out some kind of a bill?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. To give him?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. What was the total amount of the bill that you gave

him?

Mr. McLEoD. There was one for $1,000, and another for $1,000. He

paid the first one for the thousand dollars. He had plenty of money

then. Six months later he was not so well off. And he paid $500.

Senator COOPER. What did you write upon the bill, as representing

services due?

Mr. McLEoD. For legal services, in South Carolina.

Senator COOPER. In your capacity as a member of the staff over there,

you had worked to get the legislation through; is that what you mean?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir. I had worked very hard, with practically

every Government Federal agency and agency in the District of Columbia.

Senator COOPER. During that time, were you talking with Mr. Reynolds about the passage of the bill?

Mr. McLEoD. No—not about passage of the bill; no, sir.

But Reynolds was in the office sometimes three or four time a week.

Senator COOPER. Is that before the bill passed?

Mr. McLEoD. Before and after, too.

Senator COOPER. Did you talk about the bill?

Mr. McLEoD. Not anything specifically about it. I suppose sometime or another he did mention it. But not that I was to help him or

anything; no, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did Mr. Baker ever talk to you about passage of

the bill?

Mr. McLEoD. I never talked to Baker about it in my life; no, sir.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Senator CANNON. Do you know any other officers or employees of

the Senate that received gifts in any amount that you consider sizable

or otherwise specifically?

Mr. McLEoD. Do I?

Senator CANNON. Yes.

Mr. McLEoD. No.

Senator CANNON. You said that you were in the room when the bids

were opened for the stadium.

Who was present at that time?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, the law required certain people to be there. It

required that the members of the Armory Board be there, and they

were there. Floyd Akers was Chairman of the Board. Robert E.
a

FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES 591

McLaughlin, one of the Commissioners, was a member of the Board,

and General Abendroth. He is the head of the National Guard. Then

there were members—Tom McCloskey was there, who is Mr. McCloskey's nephew or son. Then there were members of the Stadium

Advisory Board there, which included me and Morris Cafritz, Ralph

Pittman, Jim Boothby—I believe there were one or two others whose

names I cannot recall.

Senator CANNON. And that is all?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Oh, no. There were other witnesses there. All the bidders had

representatives there.

Senator CANNON. Were there any other 

Mr. MoLEoD. And there were newspaper people there too.

Senator CANNON. Any officers or employees of the Senate there that

you know of?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir. But there were no officers of the Senate who

were on the Advisory Committee. I was a member of the Stadium

Advisory Committee.

Senator CANNON. Senator Pell.

Senator PELL. Mr. McLeod, were you ever a page here?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir.

Senator PELL. I want to get back to this $1,500 gift.

A gift like that does not come like manna from heaven.

What was the quid pro quo in your view?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I think when Don Reynolds came to me, I think

he was sincere in what he said, that he thought I had done an awful lot

to help him, which I had—no question of that.

Senator PELL. What had you done to help him?

Mr. McLEoD. I had done so many things I could not even start to

tell you—just the same as any member of the Senate or the House or

the staff does for people day in and day out.

Senator PELL. I think any member of the Senate or House staff

being helpful to the general public day in and day out would not ever

be expected to receive a gift of $1,500.

Mr. McLEoD. But the hundreds of people I have done things for,

I would not even expect a cigar. Because in the House District Committee, as long as I have been there I was just a sitting duck for anybody that wanted to walk in there from the street.

Senator PELL. I realize also that the conduct of an employee of the

House is not in the terms of reference of our inquiry. So it is not for

us to make any judgment on your action in accepting that gift.

Did you have any knowledge at all of Mr. Baker accepting similar

gifts, or employees on this side of the Capitol?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir; I knew nothing of Mr. Baker's business, and

I know nothing of it now. We were from South Carolina—he was

from South Carolina, I was from the lower part of South Carolina.

He was 20 years or more younger than I am. I never knew him until

I had been in Washington maybe 10, 12, 15 years—before I even heard

of him.

Senator PELL. Have you received other •teDlilAct • . a box of

cigars in the course of your work?
592 FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES

Mr. McLEoD. I just said a minute ago I received a check here last

year for a thousand dollars

'

which I will be glad to show the members

of the committee, but I will not have it published.

Senator PELL. Would you be willing to let us know about the total

value of these gifts in a calendar year?

Mr. McLEoD. There is no value, other than this—unless it is a box

of cigars or a bottle of whisky, or a package of fruit, things of that

kind.

Senator PELL. But the only cash gift was this check you have in

your hand there, last year, that you received?

Mr. McLEoD. This is not ia check. It is a photostatic copy of a check.

The check has been cashed.

Senator PELL. But that is the only cash gift of more than a box

of cigars value that you received in the last calendar year of your employment?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes.

I have gotten a gift certificate from somebody for a hat or something of that kind; yes, sir.

Senator PELL. Did you have a private practice while you were also

clerk of the District Committee?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir.

I was associated with a law firm in Columbia, S.C.

Senator PELL. Were you admitted to the bar of the District of

Columbia?

Mr. McLEoD. No sir.

Senator PELL. You had no private practice in the District?

Mr. McLEoD. No sir.

Senator PELL. And prior to being counsel to the District Committee, what position did you hold?

Mr. McLEoD. I was with Fort Motor Co., in Charlotte, N.C.

Senator PELL. And then you moved straight from that to being

counsel to the District Committee?

Mr. McLEoD. No; I left the job I was with and went with Congressman McMILLAN, when he campaigned for the House in 1938, I believe it was.

Senator PELL. And then you came up here with Congressman McMillan?

Mr. McLEoD. Came up here with him.

Senator PELL. Now, when you received a gift of this size, did you

report it to Congressman McMillan?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir; I would not.

Senator PELL. You would not?

Mr. McLEoD. I do not know why I should.

Senator PELL. It would not occur to you to say, "I would not receive it"?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir.

Well, I told you. I pled with the man not to give it to me. He insisted. He says, "If you do not take it, I am going to get you something maybe you will not want anyway."

So then I agreed to it.

Senator PELT,. I am sorry—but that is all.
FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES 593

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?

This second gift to which you have referred—did you receive that

gift at a time when you were employed in the House, or since that

time?

Mr. McLEoD. I was with the House at the time.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. McLEoD. I was with the House; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You mentioned a gift of a thousand dollar.

Mr. McLEop. This was after I left the House.

Senator COOPER. Was that for any services rendered while you were

working in the House?

Mr. McLEoD. Well 

Senator COOPER. You volunteered this.

Mr. MoLEoD. I think if you want to know what is in it, you ought

to read it and see.

Senator PELL. We would be delighted.

I am not sure we would be.

Mr. McLEoD. I think you would be. But I do not want to put it

in the record.

Mr. MCLENDON. Any objection to showing it to me?

Mr. McLEoD. No, no.

There is nothing wrong with it. I am very proud of it.

Senator COOPER. I think it should be put in the record.

Mr. MCLENDON. Mr. Chairman, the witness just showed me the

check and the letter accompanying it. I told him that I certainly did

not want him to get the impression I was insisting that he disclose it.

But I think in fairness to him and in fairness to the committee that

he probably ought to. Otherwise you are going to leave the inference

that it might be from somebody who was paying you off.

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I would like to do that.

Would there by any objection to me reading it with the understanding that you will not put it in the record?

Senator CuRns. May I ask a question or two first?

When did you leave the committee?

Mr. McLEoD. January 1, 19—December 31,1962.

Senator Cuirris. 1962?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes sir.

Senator Cuwris. Does this gift relate to any of your activities or

friendships or cooperation during the time that you were an employee

of the Congress?

Mr. McLEoD. I will read you the letter and let you determine that

for yourself. .

Senator C-crims. I am only asking as to the time. Does it relate

Mr. McLEop. It did relate to recognition of my service.

I will be glad to read the letter, if you want to make an issue of it.

Senator CURTIS. No • we do not want to make an issue of it. We did

not bring it in here. You put the committee in a position that here

we know about a gift, and we are protecting the donor or something.
594 FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES

Mr. McLEoD. Here is the letter, from the Metropolitan Police Relief

Association:

WILLIAM M. MCLEOD

'

Jr.,

3846 Macomb Street, Northwest.

DEAR MR. MCLEOD. At the last meeting of the board of directors of

the Metropolitan Police Relief Association of the District of Columbia, recognition was given to your many years of interest in our association while we were seeking legislation exempting our organization

from the insurance laws of the District of Columbia. It was the

unanimous vote of the board of directors that we express our appreciation in a more tangible way. We are planning to do this at the next

regular meeting of the board of directors. Therefore, your presence

is requested at our next scheduled meeting, which will be held in room

2066, Municipal Center, 300 Indiana Avenue NW., on Thursday, July

11, 1963. Our meeting will start at 5 p.m.

We would like for you to be there at about 5:30 p.m. Looking forward to seeing you, I am

Yours very truly,

GARLAND B. WATERS, Secretary Treasurer.

Now, I called a friend of mine and asked him what this was all

about. He said, "Well, these people did vote to do this. They would

like to have you there. They will probably present you some little

plaque or something."

When I got there, they gave me this check for a thousand dollars,

and had it marked on there, "Gift."

Senator PELL. May I make sure I understand correctly?

Outside of that check for a thousand dollars, and the $1,500 gift

from Mr. Reynolds you recall no other cash gifts that you received

in your tenure as clerk of the committee above the value of a box

of cigars?

Mr. McLEoD. Unless it was a gift certificate. I have gotten gift

certificates at Christmas time for a hat.

Senator PELL. Except for that you have not received any other

check or cash gift in your years as clerk for the District committee?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir.

Senator PELL. You are sure?

Mr. McLEoD. I am sure.

Mr. MCLENDON. Mr. McLeod, may I ask you a question?

When did you first learn that Reynolds paid Baker 84,000 for

services rendered by Baker in connection with the stadium bill?

Mr. MoLEoD. I told you in your office the day before yesterday.

Mr. MCLENDON. I want you to tell the committee.

Mr. McLEoD. I first learned about it when I saw this release in the

paper.

Mr. MCLENDON. Look at page 7 of this testimony of Don B. Reynolds that you have there before you.

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. Do you notice that check for $4,000 payable to

Baker, dated October 15, 1960?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.
FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES 595

Mr. MCLENDON. Turn over to page 10, the check to you for $1,000,

dated January 4, 1961. Is that correct?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes.

Mr. MCLENDON. And it is endorsed by you, is it not?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. 

Yes,

the next check for $500, payable to you, is

dated July 24, 1961?

Mr. McLEoD. That is right.

Mr. MCLENDON. And in between the time that Baker was paid

$4,000 in October 1960, and the time you were paid these checks in

1961, several months later, did you have any conversation with Reynolds about his having paid Baker?

Mr. McLEoD. I did not know anything about it.

Mr. MCLENDON. You did not know anything about it?

Mr. McLEoD. No, sir; of course not.

Mr. MCLENDON. And how long was it before this first check for

$1,000 was given you was it that Reynolds first spoke to you about

making a gift?

Can you tell us?

Mr. McLEoD. How long before the check?

Mr. MCLENDON. How long before January 4?

Mr. McLEoD. I think it was sometime shortly after Christmas—

preceding that—which would have made it in 1960.

Mr. MCLENDON. Why was the second check delayed until July?

Mr. McLEoD. I told you. He was flush with money the first time

I talked to him. And the next time he was not doing so well.

Mr. MCLENDON. That is the only explanation you have for that?

Mr. McLEoD. Yes, sir.

And I think in that connection, while you mention those checks,

you might also mention the endorsement on the back of these checks,

where they went to. It was not tried to slip under the table.

Mr. MCLENDON. What was the endorsement?

Mr. McLEoD. You have it on page 10 and 11.

Mr. MCLENDON. For deposit 

Mr. McLEoD. Federal Savings & Loan Association, and my endorsement.

Mr. MCLENDON. That does not mean anything to us.

What does the number mean?

Mr. McLEoD. That is the number of my account. And the other

was paid to Home Federal Savings & Loan Association, S-561, the

same account, endorsed by me.

Mr. MCLENDON. All right.

And the bills that you rendered, one of them was dated in January 1961, for which you got payment 3 days later, and the other was

dated July 15, 1961, for which you got payment 9 days later.

Do you remember that?

Mr. McLEoD. Well, I remember it was later than it was dated;

yes, sir.

Mr. MCLENDON. What I want to ask you now is, why were those

bills dated different dates?

Mr. MCLEOD. I do not know.
596 FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF SENATE OFFICERS OR EMPLOYEES

Mr. MCLENDON. How do you explain the difference between the

dates of the two bills? Almost 7 months.

Mr. McLEoD. Well, that was the agreement. I was to bill him

once, the first 6 months of the year, and once

Mr. MCLENDON. Oh, you have not told us that.

He told you to bill one in one 6 months and one in the next 6

months?

Mr. McLEoD. That is right.

Mr. MCLENDON. I see.

All right, that is all.

Senator CANNON. You may be excused, sir.

We will stand in, recess until 10 a.m., tomorrow.

(Whereupon, at 5 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at

10 a.m., Tuesday, February 18, 1964.)
‘, -