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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

+ + + + +

PUBLIC MEETING ON ENERGY CONSERVATION

PROGRAM FOR CONSUMER PRODUCTS: TEST

PROCEDURES FOR CLOTHES DRYERS AND ROOM AIR

CONDITIONERS

+ + + + +

WEDNESDAY,

DECEMBER 17, 2008

+ + + + +

 The public meeting was held in

Room 8E-089 of the Forrestal Building, U.S.

Department of Energy, 1000 Independence

Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:10 a.m.,

Doug Brookman, Facilitator, presiding. 

PRESENT:

JAMES BATTAGLIA, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

BRICE BOWLEY, G.E. Consumer & Industrial

DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions

DEBRA K. BRUNK, Association of Home Appliance 

 Manufacturers

BELINDA CARR, Energetics, Inc.

NATASCHA CASTRO, National Institute of 

 Standards and Technology

PAIGE DETRICK, BSH Home Appliances Corporation

BRENDA EDWARDS, Department of Energy

GARY FERNSTROM, Pacific Gas and Electric 

 Company

LUKE HARMS, Whirlpool Corporation

RONALD LEWIS, Department of Energy

GRAHAM B. PARKER, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory

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PRESENT (Continued):

JUDITH REICH, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an Energy-

 Efficient Economy

JACOB TALBOT, American Council for an Energy-

 Efficient Economy

JOHN M. TALBOTT, Talbott Consulting

DETLEF WESTPHALEN, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

STEPHEN WITKOWSKI, Department of Energy

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 TABLE OF CONTENTS

 PAGE

Welcoming Remarks, Ron Lewis . . . . . . . . .4

Introductions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5

Review of Agenda . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7

Introduction, Background and Legal

 Authority, Stephen Witkowski . . . . . 10

Stakeholder Opening Statements . . . . . . . 15

Covered Products, Effective Date, 

 Determination of Modes to be

 Incorporated. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18

Specification for Test Methods and

 Measurements for Standby and Off 

 Mode Testing . . . . . . . . . . . . . 91

Calculation of Energy Use Associated

 with Standby and Off Modes for

 Room Air Conditioners . . . . . . . . .125

Measures of Energy Consumption . . . . . . .133

Technical Corrections . . . . . . . . . . . .155

Compliance with other EPCA Requirements . . .156

Conclusions and Closing Remarks . . . . . . .165

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 (9:10 a.m.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning,

4 everybody, and welcome. This is the test

5 procedures for clothes dryers and room air

6 conditioners in NOPR public meeting for the

7 Building Technologies Program here at Energy

8 Efficiency and Renewable Energy. Today is

9 December 17th, 2008, and we are in the

10 Forrestal Building. Nice to see you all. 

11 Thanks for being here on time so that we can

12 almost start on time.

13 My name is Doug Brookman, Public

14 Solutions, in Baltimore, and I'm going to

15 review the agenda here shortly, but before we

16 do, we'll have welcoming remarks from Ron

17 Lewis.

18 MR. LEWIS: Welcome.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. LEWIS: I appreciate everyone

21 being here, all of the dozen of you. Although

22 there aren't many people here as of yet, your

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1 input is always desired, and this is no less

2 important than the many meetings we have had

3 in this room. So we hope that you'll feel

4 free to exchange your viewpoints and give us

5 input, and I look forward to having a

6 productive day.

7 So thank you very much for being

8 here.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

10 It's our tradition to provide an

11 opportunity for each person to introduce him

12 or herself. So if you'd do that, I'm going to

13 start on this side of the room and work my way

14 around. Your name and organizational

15 affiliation, if you would please.

16 MR. HARMS: My name is Luke Harms

17 with Whirlpool Corporation.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: And we're testing

19 out these microphones. So we'll see if they

20 work.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: So I'm Gary

22 Fernstrom, representing the Pacific Gas and

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1 Electric Company.

2 MR. BOWLEY: Brice Bowley with

3 G.E. Consumer and Industrial.

4 MS. DETRICK: Paige Detrick with

5 BSH Home Appliances.

6 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs with

7 American Council for an Energy-Efficient

8 Economy.

9 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with the

10 Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Judy?

12 MS. REICH: Judith Reich from

13 Navigant Consulting.

14 MR. LEWIS: Ron Lewis, DOE.

15 MR. WITKOWSKI: Stephen Witkowski,

16 DOE.

17 MS. CASTRO: Natascha Castro from

18 the National Institute of Standards and

19 Technology.

20 MR. TALBOT: Jacob Talbot. I'm

21 with the American Council for an Energy22 Efficient Economy.

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1 MR. PARKER: Graham Parker,

2 Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

4 So we're about to launch into the

5 first substantive element after I finish this

6 agenda review. We provide an opportunity here

7 at the outset for any of you that wish to do

8 so to make brief opening remarks about issues

9 that are important to you, things you'd like

10 to highlight at the outset and perhaps for

11 further development as the day goes on.

12 Following that we're going to have

13 a brief introduction and background on the

14 legal authority for this NOPR from Stephen

15 Witkowski, and following that a more complete

16 description of the test procedure of the

17 covered products on all of those issues from

18 Judy, Judith.

19 We'll take a break mid-morning,

20 around about 10:45 or so, and then we'll get

21 into more details on the test procedures

22 specifically, the test methods and

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1 measurements for standby mode and off mode

2 testing.

3 We'll continue from there a

4 calculation of energy uses associated with

5 standby modes and off modes for room air

6 conditioners, and we'll take a break for lunch

7 around about noonish, and we'll proceed as you

8 can see in your agenda with the calculation of

9 energy use associated with standby modes and

10 off modes for clothes dryers; following that,

11 measures of energy consumption; following

12 that, for technical corrections issues; then

13 compliance with other EPCA requirements; and

14 then finally an opportunity for conclusions

15 and closing remarks.

16 We intend to adjourn today mid17 afternoon or so, 2:45, three-ish at the

18 latest, I think. Okay? So that's the plan

19 for today.

20 Questions, comments about the

21 agenda? And in particular, anything that you

22 would like to add that would supplement the

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1 agenda if it's not covered here.

2 (No response.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I see

4 nothing. Then I'd ask for your consideration

5 of what I think is not much more than common

6 courtesy. Please speak one at a time. Please

7 say your name for the record. If you would

8 keep the focus here, please turn your cell

9 phones on silent mode. If you need to have a

10 sidebar conversation with someone, we'll

11 understand if you take it out of the room. 

12 It's distracting.

13 Despite the fact the microphones

14 don't work very well, the acoustics are pretty

15 good. So if you'd hold down your sidebars.

16 I ask you to please be concise and

17 share the air time, and I'm going to be

18 queuing people to speak as best I can by name. 

19 I also wish to encourage follow-on comments.

20 As I queue you by name, you don't

21 have to repeat everything back, your entire

22 organization and affiliation, but for the

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1 record, please just say your name.

2 And I think that's all that I

3 intended to cover at this point. Additional

4 questions, comments here before we begin?

5 (No response.)

6 MR. WITKOWSKI: Well, again, thank

7 you for coming to this public NOPR meeting,

8 and the purpose of this meeting is to examine

9 the test procedure in NOPR, and I will present

10 the department's proposed test procedures for

11 clothes dryers and room air conditioners.

12 We seek comment from the

13 participants on the proposed test procedures. 

14 We will be discussing specific issues or

15 questions related to the proposal and

16 discussion and gathering of information on the

17 next steps for the rulemaking.

18 As far as the steps go in the

19 clothes dryer and room air conditioner testing

20 procedure rulemaking, we're at the NOPR stage

21 and move next into the final rule.

22 The NOPR, as most of you know, was

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1 issued by DOE on December 2nd, 2008. Today,

2 of course, is the meeting. Comments on the

3 NOPR from interested parties, transcripts,

4 records, oral comments for today's public

5 meeting will be available some time after the

6 meeting.

7 The written comments, the comment

8 as far as written comments, the comment period

9 close 75 days after publication in the Federal

10 Register. DOE reviews and considers all

11 comments.

12 The final rule, the final rule

13 publication will be issued by March 31st

14 deadline. It is required by EISA, the Energy

15 Independence and Security Act of 2007.

16 Test procedure overview and

17 status, and we'll be going through the

18 products covered by the test procedure

19 changes, the effective date for the amended

20 test procedure, incorporating by reference IEC

21 Standard 62301 from the first edition, 2005 to

22 six, for measuring standby mode and off mode

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1 power in clothes dryers and room air

2 conditioners; determination of the modes to be

3 incorporated; adding specifications for the

4 test methods and measurements for clothes

5 dryers and room air conditioners; standby mode

6 and off mode testing.

7 The calculation of energy use

8 associated with standby and off mode; measure

9 the energy consumption; correction of tests

10 describing energy factor calculation for

11 clothes dryers; correction of text reference

12 to room air conditioner test standard; and

13 compliance with other EPCA requirements.

14 Comments and issues from the

15 participants, as always, workshop participants

16 are invited to provide summary comments or

17 statements. Participants are also invited to

18 raise their issues on the test procedure NOPR

19 for discussion today.

20 The regulatory history, this is

21 always the most interest part. Clothes dryer

22 test procedure final rule, 41 Federal Register

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1 27,324 was issued on May 19th, 1981,

2 established test procedure with provisions for

3 measuring the energy factor. It currently

4 provides for measure of standby mode energy

5 consumption only for gas dryers in the form of

6 pilot energy consumption.

7 The room air conditioner test

8 procedure final rules, 42 F.R. 27,898 of June

9 1, 1977, and F.R., and so on, of June 29th,

10 1979. This rule established and amended test

11 procedure with provisions for measuring the

12 energy efficiency ratio EER; incorporated by

13 reference ANSI Standard Z234.1 issued in 1972

14 for room air conditioners; and ASHRAE Standard

15 16-69, method of testing for rating room air

16 conditioners. It does not currently provide

17 for a measure of standby or off mode energy

18 use.

19 And then we have the Energy

20 Independence and Security Act of 2007,

21 referring to as EISA 2007, which provides

22 amendments to the Energy Policy and

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1 Conservation Act, or EPCA, and EISA directs

2 DOE to incorporate a measure of standby and

3 off mode energy consumption into its test

4 procedures for residential clothes dryers and

5 room air conditioners by March 31st of 2009. 

6 It directs DOE to integrate such energy

7 consumption into the energy descriptor.

8 If technically feasible, DOE must

9 prescribe a separate standby mode and off mode

10 energy use test procedure if technically

11 feasible.

12 And finally, DOE must consider the

13 most current version of IEC Standard 62301 and

14 62087, which will be discussed in considerable

15 detail later on in this meeting.

16 And then there's also reference to

17 IEC Standard 62301 and IEC 62087 at the bottom

18 of page 7.

19 And at this point we're going to

20 have a test procedure overview that Judy Reich

21 will give.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Before Judith

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1 starts, I did want to provide -- we kind of

2 switched the two items in the agenda. So I

3 want to provide now an opportunity for anybody

4 that wishes to make opening remarks, brief

5 summary statements about their concerns and

6 issues that they'd like to raise and perhaps

7 develop further as the day goes on. So let's

8 just do that now.

9 Yes, Gary.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: So I'm Fernstrom

11 representing the Pacific Gas and Electric

12 Company, and I'd like to make a brief

13 statement about PG&E's interest in test

14 procedures specifically.

15 PG&E is interested in having

16 accurate test procedures that correctly

17 reflect the energy use and energy efficiency

18 performance of products as they are used by

19 users, which may be consumers or industrial

20 customers. This is important for PG&E for two

21 reasons: one, because PG&E has a codes and

22 standard program through which it advocates

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1 for improved minimum efficiency performance,

2 and it has an incentive rebates program

3 through which it rewards products in the

4 market that offer superior energy efficiency

5 performance.

6 So having test procedures that

7 properly reflect energy use and performance is

8 important in both of those opportunities. 

9 It's also necessary that this information be

10 widely available to PG&E and the public so

11 that it can determine which products fall into

12 exceptionally good and not so good categories.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

14 Other opening remarks? Yes,

15 Debra.

16 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM.

17 First of all, I just want to thank

18 DOE for having this meeting today, for getting

19 us the draft version of the NOPR to us a

20 little bit earlier before it was actually

21 published in the Federal Register. That was

22 very helpful for us to have that little bit of

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1 extra time there.

2 And I think, again, I will follow

3 on to PG&E's comments. AHAM believes in the

4 importance of these test procedures, that they

5 be accurate and reliable, and that they

6 adequately measure the energy use of the

7 appliances.

8 I think our biggest comment today,

9 which we will come back to, I think, several

10 times, but I will just summarize here, is our

11 concerns at this point with the differences in

12 IEC 62301, the current version, and the IEC

13 62301, committee draft two, which is nearing

14 publication at the IEC, and there are some

15 very significant differences there, and as

16 such, there are some significant differences

17 between what DOE is proposing and that

18 version.

19 So again, AHAM's main concern is

20 around that and harmonization with the rest of

21 the world.

22 Thank you.

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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Other opening

2 remarks?

3 (No response.)

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then --

5 MR. WITKOWSKI: Just one quick

6 announcement. I also want to mention that the

7 Websites are up and the information that you

8 have in front of you is available online if

9 you would want to.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

11 So then Judy.

12 MS. REICH: Good morning,

13 everybody. I am Judith Rich from Navigant

14 Consulting.

15 The first topic that I'm going to

16 be going through is exactly which products are

17 covered by the proposed amendments to the test

18 procedures, specifically the test procedure

19 amendments to address energy consumption in

20 standby and off modes.

21 The definitions for covered

22 products are codified in the Code of Federal

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1 Regulations under 10 CFR 430.2, which contains

2 definitions for a whole variety of products,

3 and specifically for clothes dryers, provides

4 definitions for both electric and gas dryers.

5 The key descriptors here would be

6 that they are appliances that utilize a tumble

7 type drum with forced air circulation where

8 the heat source is either electricity or gas,

9 depending on whether it's the electric or gas

10 clothes dryer.

11 It is anticipated that these

12 descriptions will cover and the test procedure

13 amendments will cover dryers that are both the

14 conventional vented type of both gas and

15 electric, including standard size and compact

16 size units, and also condensing type dryers,

17 the so-called ventless dryers.

18 And in that category, it would

19 also include combination washer-dryers which

20 are appliances which have utilized the same

21 drum for both the washing and drying

22 functions. This would be somewhat distinct

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1 from a stacked dryer where the dryer would

2 just be considered as an independent unit from

3 the washer.

4 For room air conditioners, the

5 same section of the Code of Federal

6 Regulations defines this product as distinct

7 from packaged terminal air conditioners, but

8 that is powered by a single phase electric

9 current and is designed for mounting in either

10 window or through the wall, and further it

11 describes the function to provide conditioned

12 air, which can include not only cooling but

13 ventilation and heating as well.

14 So, again, it's anticipated that

15 the amendments to the test procedure are going

16 to cover products that are roughly analogous

17 to the product classes that are specified in

18 the energy conservation standards, namely,

19 that these are room air conditions that are

20 either for single or double hung windows, and

21 under that category they can either be with or

22 without louvered sides and with or without a

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1 reverse cycle to provide a heating function.

2 Additionally, the covered products

3 would include casement mounted, casement

4 slider or casement only, window type room air

5 conditioners.

6 Talk about when the effective date

7 is for the proposed amendments. DOE defines

8 the effective date for the test procedure as

9 when these amendments are codified in the CFR,

10 and that is proposed to be 30 days after the

11 amendments are published as a final rule in

12 the Federal Register, but it's important to

13 note that on that date, the test procedure

14 itself is effective, but that manufacturers

15 are not required to use those amendments to

16 calculate standby and off mode energy

17 consumption or for calculating to determine

18 compliance with the existing energy

19 conservation standards.

20 And, in fact, in order to provide

21 for those amendments to be used for

22 calculating standby and off mode energy use,

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1 the concurrent energy conservation standards

2 rulemaking that's including standby and off

3 mode power will remove the clarification

4 that's going to be in the CFR at the date that

5 that energy conservation standard rulemaking

6 becomes effective, which is expected to be in

7 2014.

8 So let me get into the discussion

9 of the methodology and test conditions that

10 are being proposed to add into the test

11 procedure in order to perform these

12 measurements. The standard that is

13 considered, particularly as a result of the

14 requirement by EISA to do so, was IEC Standard

15 62301, and the current edition is the first

16 edition which was published in 2005.

17 I also want to point out that EISA

18 requires DOE to consider IEC 62087, which

19 relates to video and audio equipment, but

20 since we're talkinga bout clothes dryers and

21 room air conditioners and not things like set

22 top boxes or VCRs, IEC 62087 was determined to

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1 not be suitable for consideration for these

2 amendments.

3 Alternatively, IEC 62301 is

4 appropriate. It covers household appliances,

5 measurement of standby power in various

6 household electrical appliances, which include

7 clothes dryers and room air conditioners, and

8 so, therefore, that one is applicable.

9 DOE is proposing to incorporate by

10 reference certain sections of IEC 62301, the

11 first edition. Specific parts of IEC 62301

12 that are proposed to be incorporated would be

13 clauses that relate to the test conditions and

14 clauses that relate to the actual methodology

15 that's used for making the standby power

16 measurements.

17 Section 4 of IEC 62301, the

18 clauses that are proposed to be incorporated

19 relate to, first, the characteristics of the

20 electrical supply, namely, the voltage, the

21 frequency and the wave form; also proposing to

22 include tolerances for the power meter

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1 measurement, and these are areas which the

2 existing DOE test procedures don't address

3 and, therefore, are being added in.

4 The third part of Section 4, the

5 third set of clauses that are proposed to be

6 incorporated relate to the ambient room

7 temperature specifications, and in that case,

8 the existing DOE test procedures do provide

9 for ambient temperature requirements, but they

10 are somewhat different than would be

11 necessitated for standby and off mode

12 measurements. So we'll get into that in a few

13 sections, but specifically for the standby and

14 off mode measurements, proposing to use the

15 requirements from IEC 62301.

16 Then from Section 5, which relates

17 to the methodology, DOE is proposing to

18 incorporate a clause that clarifies that the

19 measurement of standby power is to be

20 conducted at the lowest possible power state

21 if, in fact, there is a short duration higher

22 power state which precedes that, for example,

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1 if the display is inactivated after a certain

2 period, that the measurement would take place

3 at the lower power state.

4 And, secondly, the IEC clause

5 provides for a technique to measure an average

6 standby mode and off mode power if the

7 measurement is unstable. So it allows for a

8 measurement for either stable or unstable

9 standby power conditions and provides for a

10 description of measuring it over a

11 representative cycle of that power.

12 At this point we invite comment on

13 the adequacy of IEC 62301 for measuring

14 standby power in both clothes dryers and room

15 air conditioner, and specifically on the

16 suitability of incorporating those clauses

17 that were just discussed, and this is

18 identified as issue number one in the NOPR.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: So you mentioned

21 that the IEC standard calls for measuring the

22 power demand at the lowest level if, for

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1 example, the display shuts off after a period

2 of time. Is that period of time defined?

3 MS. REICH: No, it is not, not in

4 IEC 62301.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: So lacking that

6 definition then, how would you know how to

7 apply the lower power use? Would it be, for

8 example, after two minutes, after a day, after

9 a month?

10 MS. REICH: Well, I assume that if

11 the product is used on a daily basis, that

12 we're talking about time periods that are

13 somewhat less than a month or a week or

14 probably even a day. The IEC test procedure,

15 I believe, does not provide a specific time

16 period because it allows for latitude among

17 different products that may take five minutes

18 or 20 minutes, and it would require some

19 determination in advance of how long that time

20 period is before the lower power state in

21 order to then conduct the test procedure.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: So I agree that

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1 some latitude is merited, but I also think

2 that DOE would be well advised to provide some

3 sort of general guideline as to what is

4 acceptable.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you suggest

6 what that would be?

7 MR. FERNSTROM: I haven't thought

8 about it enough to have a specific suggestion,

9 but I do think it's a loose end that should

10 well be tied down.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other

12 comments? Yes, Harvey Sachs.

13 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs.

14 I also had not thought about that,

15 but second Gary's comments, only illustrate

16 them with an example, that I could readily

17 game this as we've seen with other products so

18 that the default were a display on a device

19 might be proclaimed to be five minutes going

20 to sleep on that display, but in fact the

21 consumer chooses and easily moves to leaving

22 that on for an hour or for permanent. We have

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1 certainly seen this with some classes of

2 office equipment, for example.

3 So that in that context I think

4 that to level the playing field for all of the

5 manufacturers, some guidance would be helpful.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So if either of you

7 or any of you had ideas about how that general

8 guidance would be framed, I'm certain the

9 department would appreciate having your

10 comments as quickly as possible.

11 Debra.

12 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM.

13 I want to address this point, and

14 then I have additional comments.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please.

16 MS. BRUNK: But I think it is

17 helpful to note in IEC 62301, both current and

18 draft versions, in the test procedure I

19 believe it's under Section 5, it does suggest

20 that you allow the product to stabilize for 30

21 minutes and then measure standby power.

22 So I think typically in, again,

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1 the IEC framework that 30 minutes is the time

2 that, you know, the appliances or whatever is

3 allowed to get into it's low power state, and

4 then you would measure the standby power at

5 that point.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And are you

7 suggesting that is what --

8 MS. BRUNK: Yes, I'm suggesting

9 that.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I just wanted to

11 clarify.

12 MS. BRUNK: For harmonization

13 purposes. So I just want to throw that out

14 there, but that is actually in the standard.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

16 And did you have some comments?

17 MS. BRUNK: I did. In general

18 AHAM does support use of IEC 62301. I think

19 as we've noted in many of our comments on all

20 of these products, we believe that this is a

21 standard that is, you know, most widely

22 accepted throughout the world, and everybody

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1 is looking at that.

2 I think there have been

3 considerable issues and concerns around the

4 current version, 2005-2006 Edition 1. I think

5 a number of us have all looked at that and

6 been somewhat confused at to what that means

7 and how to interpret it.

8 The committee draft two version,

9 which is out for comment at this point,

10 comments are due in January, and it is

11 expected to be published in July of next year. 

12 It really provides some excellent

13 clarifications on all of these points.

14 In terms of the set-up and the

15 testing it remains very much the same, but

16 when it gets into the definitions of the

17 modes, it is very clear what should and should

18 not be incorporated.

19 So AHAM's proposal at this time is

20 really that we understand EISA 2007 and its

21 requirements. We believe it could be

22 interpreted that the standard does not

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1 necessarily have to be finalized in order to

2 incorporate the most recent version, and I

3 think we're just looking at the effective date

4 of the standard is 2014, and concerns around

5 the rest of the world sort of moving forward

6 much faster than DOE in terms of some of these

7 definitions, and we feel it would be best to

8 use the information that we do have available

9 at this time.

10 And, again, the international

11 community through IEC has done a tremendous

12 amount of work in further defining standby and

13 off mode in particular power and what should

14 be incorporated into that.

15 Another option --

16 MR. SACHS: Excuse me. Can we ask

17 questions about that before we move to another

18 issue? Because you raise some important --

19 MS. BRUNK: Sure, sure. That's

20 fine.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Harvey. 

22 Ask a question.

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1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.

2 And I want to make sure that I

3 understand the import. I would like to

4 interpret this as asking for a delay of the

5 final rule without a change of the effective

6 date of the standard. Is that consistent with

7 what you meant to imply?

8 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk

9 with AHAM.

10 No, it is not what I meant to

11 imply. I'm not talking about a delay or

12 suggesting a delay. All I am proposing is

13 that DOE consider harmonizing with the IEC

14 draft version, knowing that that will be

15 moving forward.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Even if those

17 timetables aren't consistent?

18 MS. BRUNK: Well, I think it's a

19 question of how that might be done, and to Mr.

20 Sachs' point, maybe that would be through a

21 delay if the department felt that that would

22 be the best way to deal with the version

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1 issue.

2 But I think in general what we're

3 trying to put on the table is that that

4 version is out there and it is almost done. 

5 Is there some way that either clarifications

6 from the committee? While the department may

7 not be able to reference the standard

8 directly, there may be a way to incorporate

9 clarifications of that standard into the

10 department's language for the test procedure.

11 I think there are multiple paths

12 that could be taken.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

14 Harvey.

15 MR. SACHS: Thank you very much.

16 My concern that I did not express

17 would be that if the final rule were to adopt

18 the draft that's not yet -- definitions from

19 the draft, it might improve the final rule,

20 but it would seem to me that it might project

21 a message of unilateralism by the U.S. in an

22 international standard process, and you had

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1 stressed harmonization. So that was why I

2 jumped to the conclusion that there might be

3 an implied request that we delay the final

4 rule until adoption of the draft version now

5 so that we could be effectively harmonized.

6 Were there other paths you were

7 thinking of?

8 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk

9 again.

10 That is one path. A separate path

11 might be to develop clarification language

12 that is based on the current committee draft

13 that could be incorporated into the DOE rule.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Or you said earlier

15 incorporated by reference or something like

16 that.

17 MS. BRUNK: Well, again, I don't

18 know everything surrounding this. It may be

19 very difficult to incorporate by reference

20 draft language. But that's where I think

21 we're proposing some sort of clarification

22 language that could be developed utilizing

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1 that draft.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom.

4 So if I could weigh in on this

5 issue, too, for PG&E, PG&E similarly supports

6 harmonization, but does not want to see any

7 significant delay.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

9 MR. BOWLEY: Yeah, this is Brice

10 Bowley. I'm with G.E.

11 I mean, I agree with you, Gary. 

12 We'd have this date set out there at 2014, and

13 we don't want to see a delay either. I mean,

14 we'd like to process.

15 But as with AHAM's comments, we

16 think we need to harmonize with the draft IEC

17 version. Again, either whether that's

18 delaying or just incorporating the current

19 language of the draft into the DOE ruling.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

21 Yes, Debra.

22 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk.

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1 If I might clarify, I think, I

2 mean, just to clarify it, I don't believe we

3 would certainly be looking at any delay in the

4 2014 effective date. I think the date that

5 may be at issue is what's in the law on EISA

6 2007, which is that March 31st, 2009 date that

7 I think is probably more or less what's under

8 discussion.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, please. 

10 Luke.

11 MR. HARMS: This is Luke Harms

12 with Whirlpool.

13 I just want to echo AHAM's

14 comments that we support formalizing with IEC

15 62301.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then

17 proceed.

18 MS. REICH: The next question

19 that's raised is what exactly is standby mode. 

20 EISA amendments to EPCA require that DOE

21 consider IEC 62301 in defining that, and if we

22 look at IEC 62301, it says that standby mode

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1 is the lowest power consumption mode that

2 can't be switched off or influenced by the

3 user and that may persist for an indefinite

4 amount of time when an appliance is connected

5 to the main electrical supply in accordance

6 with the manufacturer's instructions.

7 This is somewhat at odds with what

8 the EISA amendments in EPCA provide as a

9 definition of standby mode. Those definitions

10 are that standby mode is a condition in which

11 the product is connected to the main power

12 source, and it offers one or more of very

13 specific functions that are either user

14 oriented or protective, and it goes on to list

15 them.

16 It can be that it reactivates the

17 unit by means of a remove switch or a remote

18 control; has an internal sensor or timer to do

19 the same function; or that it provides some

20 consumer function, such as providing

21 information or status displays or a sensor

22 based function, some sort of temperature

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1 sensor, end state humidity sensor.

2 And in considering, in weighing

3 the options for defining the standby modes,

4 DOE also notes that prior to the

5 implementation of EISA 2007, that a definition

6 for standby mode that was nearly identical to

7 IEC 62301 was incorporated into the dishwasher

8 test procedure.

9 Upon evaluation of these various

10 definitions, DOE decided or is proposing to

11 adopt the broader definition of standby mode

12 that's provided under EPCA for reasons that it

13 is more specific and provides greater clarity

14 by defining exactly what those user functions

15 are, and in addition, it also provides for or

16 allows for the option of measuring multiple

17 standby modes which could have different power

18 consumption characteristics, and it would be

19 desirable to accurately represent standby

20 energy use by capturing each one of these

21 modes.

22 So DOE is proposing to use that

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1 EPCA definition for the test procedures for

2 both clothes dryers and air conditioners.

3 We invite comment on what the

4 differences are between these definitions, and

5 those that are provided under EISA and those

6 that are provided under IEC 62301.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra.

8 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk, AHAM.

9 I think this is a good

10 illustration of kind of where we are at in the

11 harmonization process. The language in EISA

12 2007 was developed, in part, by using IEC

13 62301 committee draft one. And again, to

14 clarify, they are now committee draft two.

15 And it was recognized at that

16 point that the standby power mode definitions

17 were changing from lowest power mode at the

18 standby power definition to low power modes. 

19 And then also these additional clarifications

20 were added.

21 So I think that describes the

22 differences between the EISA 2007 language and

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1 the current draft of IEC 62301, and then to my

2 point earlier, then what has happened with the

3 second committee draft is just some additional

4 clarification even further on what standby

5 power modes would be.

6 So I think that just sort of

7 highlights how this process is sort of in the

8 middle of the international development and

9 clarification of this standard.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: How long has draft

11 two been available?

12 MS. BRUNK: Draft two has been

13 available since, I believe, November 1st,

14 October 15th, around that time.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So it has

16 only been out for a couple of months.

17 MS. BRUNK: It has bene out a

18 couple of months, correct.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then for

20 the department to figure out a way to

21 incorporate that in midstream here, you could

22 imagine that would be something of a

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1 challenge.

2 Gary.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, it would be. 

4 However, it might be easier for DOE if all of

5 the parties agree to it.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis.

7 MR. LEWIS: That's going to be a

8 question for General Counsel, and they're

9 unfortunately working on some high priority

10 items right now.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just thinking

12 about practicality of this in addition to the

13 content.

14 Ron Lewis.

15 MR. LEWIS: Part of the dilemma we

16 have you have just highlighted, that there was

17 a draft one and now there's a draft two, and

18 there's nothing saying that there wouldn't be

19 further revisions. So at what point, we have

20 things we have to move along with. So I think

21 the EISA language was general in nature. 

22 However, the standing operating procedures as

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1 far as I understand it is that we can only

2 incorporate -- in fact, we're going through

3 some issues with the Federal Register that is

4 very, very granular and they scrutinize

5 heavily incorporation by references, and they

6 demand that we give copies of the things that

7 we're incorporating by reference that they

8 review for consistency. So something that's

9 only draft mode I know would not get through

10 the Federal Register and be published as a

11 standard.

12 So we've got some issues that

13 General Counsel will have to make some calls

14 on. I think the issue is more how do we take

15 the knowledge, be informed by the activities

16 right now to believe that we can enhance the

17 current version that's existing right now and

18 finalized right now and do it in such a

19 flexible way that it doesn't become obsolete

20 before the effective date.

21 So it's going to be a challenge,

22 but to the degree that we've got information

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1 that would help us to carve the text and

2 develop language that's sustainable, but adds

3 some clarification, I think the essence of

4 your point, we would want to do that. The

5 methodology and our flexibility to do that, I

6 think, is somewhat limited, but it doesn't

7 mean that we don't want to try to do that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: All of which means

9 that your comments today are especially

10 helpful to the department.

11 Harvey.

12 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs.

13 As I'm trying to think through

14 these things, I'm first of all very

15 appreciative of comments by the manufacturers,

16 by G.E. in particular, that the effective date

17 is not the issue because that's when we begin

18 to harvest the energy savings from this

19 procedure.

20 What might be very helpful to us

21 who are not directly in this industry would be

22 to get a better understanding of which changes

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1 really are going to cause heartburn if they

2 are not done in terms of the ability to

3 harmonize products internationally so that we

4 can focus on those which really would make a

5 difference.

6 Some things will have differences

7 in wording, but lead to very small

8 differences, if any, in how products are

9 tested, and there may be a few that are very

10 important, and this might be helpful as we try

11 to work with you with the department.

12 And the other thing that we would

13 very much like to think about with you all and

14 on our own will be the implications in

15 kilowatt hours per year for divergent possible

16 definitions as we go forward, which are things

17 that will make a difference in energy

18 consumption versus things that are

19 inconsequential in the national picture.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra, do you want

22 to follow on?

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1 MS. BRUNK: Yes. Debra Brunk with

2 AHAM.

3 I think a follow-up to Harvey's

4 comment, as well as Ron Lewis' comments, I

5 would note that AHAM has developed a set of

6 guidelines for these different modes based on

7 the committee draft two for IEC 62301. Those

8 will be incorporated in our comments, but

9 really, this is an effort by the industry, all

10 of our divisions because they are affected by

11 standby power, to come up with something that

12 is representative, recognizing that the

13 committee draft two has not been available for

14 very long and recognizing that there are

15 issues with any kind of referencing of a draft

16 document. So those will be incorporated in

17 our comments and made publicly available.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey.

19 MR. SACHS: Thank you very much. 

20 And we very much appreciate the

21 chance to review these. This is Harvey Sachs.

22 Ron, I'm hearing from you that it

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1 may be possible not to incorporate by

2 reference, but to incorporate specific

3 language derived from the 63201 in the

4 rulemaking.

5 MR. LEWIS: Again, I would

6 specify --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis.

8 MR. LEWIS: -- General Counsel will

9 need to try and meet on this, but EISA directs

10 us to consider, and there's a current version

11 that's the only thing that we can really

12 consider right now from adopting by reference.

13 However, the language that helps

14 to clarify if there's something that's vague,

15 something that could use elaboration, we

16 certainly would explore the flexibilities

17 there with GC. How can we express things that

18 are DOE's interpretation of things that aren't

19 specific?

20 I don't want to speak on behalf of

21 the team, but GC will make that determination

22 of what flexibilities we have. EISA does

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1 direct us to the IEC, you know, code there,

2 the specific code, and the standing directive

3 from General Counsel is their interpretation

4 is when we are told by the statute to go to a

5 specific code and incorporate by reference, it

6 has to be a specific year, a version. That's

7 not a general thing that just is automatically

8 updated when somebody updates something. It

9 has to have, you know, a linkage to a specific

10 one so that somebody knows exactly what

11 they're being held to.

12 So we don't have the luxury of

13 saying, you know, as amended, as will be

14 amended, as will be changed. We have to link

15 to what's there, but to the degree that there

16 is confusion or lack of clarity or something,

17 that the definition is open to interpretation

18 of what it actually means, you know, we

19 certainly want to explore that to incorporate

20 any of these enhancements that are out there.

21 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs again.

22 Let me frame this as a very

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1 specific question, and I apologize for taking

2 the time now, but it's in the hopes that it

3 will help the process along. If other

4 affected such as our community and the

5 utilities were to comment in support of the

6 AHAM interpretations and of incorporating that

7 language, would this help you in your fight

8 with the absent GC ?

9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note for the

11 record the GC is not in the room at the moment

12 to defend themselves.

13 (Laughter.)

14 MR. LEWIS: That's correct.

15 MR. SACHS: I would have said the

16 same thing had they been here. Oh, I'm sorry.

17 MR. LEWIS: Certainly whenever

18 there's agreement and, you know, people feel

19 this is the right thing to do, that's always

20 helpful to have at hand. I think it's going

21 to come down to if there is any conflict

22 between what's existing.

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1 Where it's clarification, where

2 there's something that's vague and this is

3 helpful in adding precision and helping

4 interpretation, but if there's a conflict of

5 language or if there's a different

6 instruction, that's where we're going to have

7 a problem, and General Counsel is going to

8 have to make a call on that.

9 So to the degree that everybody

10 else is in agreement and supportive of the

11 language, it's good to know that, and it's

12 always better to have a sense of that, but I

13 can't make the call for General Counsel, and

14 I don't know as far as the team and Judy's

15 reviewing of the document if there are any

16 things that you're aware of that are in

17 conflict or look like between the second

18 draft, if you've seen that, and any

19 conflict --

20 MS. REICH: I have not seen the

21 second draft. So I can't say.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: And so, Debra, you

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1 volunteered earlier that there may be several

2 different pathways to achieve this

3 harmonization for draft two. So you can

4 suggest those in your comments, any of you,

5 all of you. That would be helpful to the

6 department.

7 Ron.

8 MR. LEWIS: And, in fact, if you

9 have this document within AHAM that is

10 reflecting on the current draft, the second

11 draft, while we don't have a copy of that,

12 we're not party to that; that might be helpful

13 to better understand that draft.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So Gary.

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Just to go back to

16 the question raised earlier about when the

17 lowest power mode begins, I think the

18 reference to after a 30 minute stabilization

19 period is fine with PG&E. So I'd like to

20 bring that point out.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I

22 appreciate that specificity and that

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1 clarification. Okay, good.

2 So then final comments on this

3 segment before we move on?

4 (No response.)

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MS. REICH: Let me just comment

7 that while EISA requires considering IEC

8 62301, DOE actually looked more broadly at

9 whether there were other test procedures that

10 should also be considered. So reviewed test

11 procedure and methodology that was being used

12 or anticipated to be used in countries that

13 are recognized to be leaders in the standby

14 power arena, namely, Japan through its Top

15 Runner Program and Korea with its E-Standby

16 Program, and Australia which is very active in

17 standby power, and it was determined that the

18 procedures in use there are either similar to

19 IEC 62301, at least the existing version, or

20 actually reference that standard as well.

21 I think that we have talked about

22 the issue in some detail already about this

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1 updated version of IEC 62301 and why DOE at

2 this point is considering using the existing

3 version of the 2005 version, and I just want

4 to point out as Ron indicated that in the

5 event that IEC 62301 is finalized in an

6 updated version, that it's anticipated that

7 those amendments could be incorporated into

8 the test procedure only through another DOE

9 test procedure amendment.

10 All right.

11 MR. SACHS: Doug.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Harvey.

13 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs.

14 Question, assuming that this

15 really does matter, the definitions, and we're

16 not able to get where everyone wanted to be

17 within the statutory time limitation, how

18 quickly could a technical revision of the test

19 procedure to update it be undertake? Could

20 that be done within a time frame that would

21 not impact the 2014 date?

22 This is perhaps exploring one of

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1 your alternative paths.

2 MS. REICH: I can't comment on the

3 DOE's scheduling of rulemakings. It, of

4 course, would also depend in part on when the

5 IEC 62301 standard is finalized, second

6 edition.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you know when

8 they anticipate the second edition will be

9 complete, Debra?

10 MS. BRUNK: They are anticipating

11 it will be published in June or July of 2009.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm not sure that

13 you're in a position. Ron Lewis.

14 MR. LEWIS: I can't comment on how

15 quickly we'd do it. It depends on

16 appropriations and the schedule, all of the

17 things that we have, obligations to updates

18 right now, and trying to fit it in. We

19 certainly would want to do it as quickly as

20 possible, but I can't give you, you know, that

21 we would immediately start on it.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: This may be the

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1 kind of question you would direct toward

2 General Counsel. Is there a precedent for

3 something like a technical revision or

4 something like that for our existing test

5 procedure?

6 MR. LEWIS: I believe that there

7 are technical corrections that are possible

8 quickly, but if there's something that was in

9 error, you know, that was put in that was a

10 mistype or something else, but actual

11 especially changing -- if we're doing

12 incorporation by reference, it's fairly

13 complex.

14 The timing to make that happen,

15 the one thing that has been available for a

16 while that we would like to utilize wherever

17 possible, and this is where your

18 recommendation if we've got a note from

19 everybody saying we are in agreement to this

20 issue, that we do have available for us right

21 now that wherever we get a consensus proposal

22 presented to us, that we can do a NOPR and a

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1 direct final rule simultaneously, and if there

2 are no serious objections to the NOPR, we can

3 execute the final rule very quickly, and that

4 saves us months of time, several months of

5 time.

6 So at a minimum we could do that,

7 but I can't give you a commitment right now

8 without looking at the schedule and without

9 knowing appropriations and all the rest.

10 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk of AHAM.

11 I think I'd just throw out on the

12 table that we do also have another NOPR

13 rulemaking on this test procedure to

14 incorporate some of the other changes to the

15 test procedures that were suggested at the

16 framework meeting.

17 So we have the standby issues, and

18 we also have at some point later on -- I'm not

19 sure what the timing is for that -- changes to

20 things like RMC and number of cycles and those

21 kinds of things to the test procedure. That

22 is also coming along with that. That may or

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1 may not be an opportunity for something like

2 this.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary? Okay. So

4 we're going to be moving on then.

5 MS. REICH: In order to determine

6 exactly what are standby modes, DOE needs to

7 refer to EPCA provisions for defining not only

8 standby mode but active mode and off mode as

9 well, and it's noted by reviewing what the

10 definitions are for active and standby mode

11 that for each one of these products, for both

12 clothes dryers and room air conditioners there

13 are going to be specific functionality

14 associated with each one, and in fact, for

15 standby modes there will be multiple standby

16 modes that we'll talk about in the next slide.

17 Active mode is defined under EPCA

18 as the unit is connected to a power source and

19 is providing a main function. So it's

20 necessary to define exactly what that main

21 function is.

22 For clothes dryers DOE is

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1 proposing that active mode is performing the

2 function of tumbling clothing with or without

3 heating the air that's being circulate for the

4 purposes of removing moisture from the

5 clothing and/or to prevent wrinkling of the

6 clothing, if that would be a period after the

7 main drying cycle where there's a little bit

8 of tumbling going on to keep the load fluffed

9 up. That would still be considered part of

10 active mode.

11 For room air conditioners, the

12 proposed amendments define active mode as the

13 function of heating or cooling a conditioned

14 space or circulating the air through the space

15 by means of fan or blower, and these can be

16 accomplished with or without energizing

17 certain air cleaning components, and it might

18 be a UV radiation function, filters, ozone

19 generator or some other means for air

20 cleaning.

21 We've talked about standby mode,

22 and the key here is that it's defining --

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1 MR. BROOKMAN: We will pause now. 

2 Gary?

3 MR. FERNSTROM: May we go back to

4 active mode for a second?

5 MS. REICH: Yes.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: The power demand

7 in the active mode tumbling, depending upon

8 whether the heat is being utilized or not,

9 would yield two different readings. Does the

10 definition and test procedure allow for two

11 different measures of power demand or energy

12 use in active mode?

13 MS. REICH: In the existing DOE

14 test procedure for energy factor? Is that the

15 question?

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I suppose

17 I'm not clear with respect to what. I just

18 want to make sure that we can get two measures

19 of energy use in active mode because the one

20 with heating would be different than the one

21 without.

22 MS. REICH: Right. It is my

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1 recollection that the test procedure which is

2 calculate the existing methodology for active

3 mode is calculating an energy factor, and I

4 believe that that test is based strictly on a

5 heating tumbling cycle, that it does not

6 incorporate a measurement of tumbling without

7 heating.

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Then let me

9 modify my question. Is the test procedure

10 consistent with the definitions then?

11 MS. REICH: Again, the test

12 procedure is intended to calculate an

13 efficiency for a drying cycle based on the

14 amount of energy required per pound of

15 clothing being dried. So the existing

16 efficiency metric is a per cycle metric for a

17 drying cycle with heat.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Many of these

19 products have different drying cycles that you

20 can choose. So in which cycle mode, let's

21 say, are we taking the measurement?

22 MS. REICH: I believe it's a mode

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1 that's defined as normal, which I assume is

2 intended to represent average conditions that

3 a user would be using the dryer under.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Well, let's

5 leave the question with respect to this

6 definition as it aligns with the test

7 procedure. I'd just like to make sure that

8 that's clear and tied down.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Brice, did you want

10 to comment?

11 MR. BOWLEY: Yeah. This is Brice

12 Bowley.

13 I guess to Gary's point, I mean,

14 talking about tumbling being a different

15 active mode than tumbling with heating, I

16 guess the problem you come to is that there

17 are so many different energy consumptions

18 depending on exactly which functions you

19 select, I mean, I haven't gone through them

20 all in a dryer, but I expect depending on

21 which functions you select you've probably got

22 ten or more energy consumptions, and it's just

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1 real hard to define, you know, what percent of

2 the population is using that function for a

3 certain period of time. Just quantifying it

4 and tying an actual energy use to every

5 specific function I think is very difficult.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Judith, you

7 thought that what's being proposed is the term

8 "normal use" or something like that?

9 MS. REICH: Not being proposed. 

10 What's existing in the current DOE test

11 procedure, the condition in which the dryer

12 cycle is conducted is a representative normal

13 temperature setting.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: debra.

15 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM.

16 I think to Brice's comment, a

17 couple of things. First of all, I think as we

18 get into these definitions of active and

19 standby, we're segregating out these different

20 functions more than we ever have before. So

21 I do agree that the DOE test procedure needs

22 to take a look at all of those things that may

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1 never have been defined specifically as active

2 or standby before, and look at, okay, does it

3 make sense to incorporate this measurement

4 into the test procedure. What is the energy

5 use? Is there some factor perhaps that could

6 be used that might adjust for this, that kind

7 of thing?

8 I think something like the

9 tumbling without heating might be something

10 like that where the energy use is relatively

11 small compared to tumbling with heating, but

12 does the test procedure capture it? And I

13 think that's a good question, and it would

14 need to be addressed.

15 So I think to Gary's point, I

16 think it's important to make sure that the

17 active use test procedures are consistent with

18 what we're talking about here.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: On my dryer at

20 home, you can do low, medium, high.

21 MS. REICH: Right.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: You know, there are

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1 lots of variations. So I'm going for a point

2 here. Should the department try and specify

3 a minimum and a maximum within active mode or

4 how would you? This has a lot of potential --

5 MS. BRUNK: Again, this is Debra

6 Brunk.

7 I think the way that certainly the

8 industry has tried to do this and certainly

9 AHAM standards try to do this as well is you

10 really try to take a conservative approach and

11 a representative approach. You don't want the

12 test to be burdensome. You want it to be

13 reasonably reflective of what the consumer is

14 going to use, and again, I think we tended to

15 err on the side of conservative. So you might

16 set it on all the highest settings. That's

17 going to give you the worst possible case.

18 I think it's just a matter of

19 making sure that some of these things are

20 actually addressed in the active use test

21 procedure so that we do know that it has been

22 accounted for or has been thought of.

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1 I think the key thing to keep in

2 mind though is the way that the DOE test

3 procedure is set up is it is a per cycle use,

4 and so if you have a cool down cycle or you

5 have -- well, we're going to do some of this

6 later -- it really kind of gets lumped into a

7 cycle from start to finish, and it's really

8 just a question of what you actually measure

9 there and how it's defined.

10 And I don't think -- certainly as

11 an industry we're not supportive of, you know,

12 having to separate all of these things out

13 because from a testing perspective that

14 becomes terribly burdensome, and you are also

15 looking at measuring extremely small amounts

16 of energy compared to the large amount of

17 energy that is actually what we're trying to

18 deal with here.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, to go to

21 Debra's comment, you also wanted to be

22 consistent and fair among all the

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1 manufacturers. So brand-to-brand comparisons

2 are valid.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey.

4 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs.

5 I think we need to draw a

6 distinction between what it is that we measure

7 in the laboratory and the numbers we generate

8 in terms of an energy factor or its

9 equivalent. As I've been thinking about this

10 this morning, it seems to me that if I do my

11 tumbling test on something that's arbitrarily

12 defined as normal, there's an awful lot of

13 permutation, combinatorial arithmetic that

14 could get involved.

15 If instead -- and there's a lot of

16 gaming that could get involved in terms of

17 encouraging manufacturers to shorten up the

18 cool-down cycle, to shorten up any kind of a

19 tumbling cycle, and to make that drum tumble

20 as slowly as possible, none of which I think

21 is particularly valuable for consumers.

22 So the question I would ask is if

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1 the measurement of the active cycle could not

2 be done in terms of watt-hours per rotation of

3 the drum with the heating element done. Now,

4 that can be done on a five-minute interval. 

5 It's a steady state integration. I realize it

6 sounds preposterous, but from that basic

7 number, you both preserve, I think, some

8 flexibility for the manufacturers to vary

9 cycles and calculate some ES and a consistent

10 measurement that's a relatively

11 straightforward one to do. It's a counter in

12 a watt army, and obviously that's with the

13 same standard load.

14 But you're indicating that I'm

15 totally off in left field.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, let's hear

17 another comment.

18 State your name for the record.

19 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia,

20 Navigant Consulting.

21 I just want to clarify in the DOE

22 test procedure it says to measure it at the

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1 highest temperature setting, not the normal.

2 MR. SACHS: I understand that, but

3 we are talking about the --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey, speak so we

5 can hear you.

6 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs.

7 We are talking about the active

8 mode this will carry forward, but we are

9 talking about the active mode energy

10 consumption, and let's assume now it's a gas

11 dryer. So we're not worrying about the

12 heating element, the active mode when the

13 heating element of whatever type is turned off

14 in a cool-down cycle or an anti-wrinkle cycle.

15 Maybe I'm missing something.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Brice.

17 MR. BOWLEY: Well, I kind of have

18 a question because dryers are not my area.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: You have a question

20 rather than a clarification?

21 MR. BOWLEY: I do, yes. I guess

22 it's a question on the test procedure. If

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1 there's a tumbling, if there's an option to

2 have tumbling or to turn it off, does the test

3 procedure allow the tumbling to be turned off? 

4 Does anybody know that?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Can anybody answer

6 that?

7 MS. DETRICK: Paige Detrick, BSH

8 Home Appliances.

9 Today's procedure is a pure time

10 dry at the highest possible setting, and with

11 a fixed finishing percentage moisture. That

12 means you don't come to the point of this

13 cool-down state at all. So today it is not

14 incorporated. It is with being the highest

15 temperature program, it's a heated

16 measurement. You may get a little off-on in

17 any given dryer, but it's pretty much all

18 heated.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I see, and so going

20 to Judith's earlier point, normal then it's

21 specified in the test procedure as the highest

22 or high.

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1 MS. REICH: Yes, I was incorrect

2 in stating that it requires a normal setting. 

3 It requires the highest setting.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. Thank

5 you.

6 Gary.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So then to go back

8 to my earlier point, if I understand what has

9 been said about the test procedure correctly,

10 there is no element of the test procedure that

11 provides for measuring tumbling action without

12 the heat on.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Paige is that what

14 you said?

15 MS. DETRICK: Yes. Paige Detrick.

16 In today's procedure that is

17 absolutely correct.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: But the new IEC

19 procedure, do we know?

20 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk

21 with AHAM.

22 The IEC 62301 procedure only

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1 addresses mode definitions. What it says is

2 there are specific departments and energy

3 standards that should be used to deal with how

4 you would measure active energy use.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So that the

6 conclusion --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Just a second,

8 Gary.

9 So could you be a little more

10 specific? Could you say a little more about

11 the direction it's heading in?

12 MS. BRUNK: The IEC 62301 standard

13 only addresses how to measure energy in

14 standby and off modes. It very clearly states

15 under active -- it will define active mode,

16 but then it very clearly states that there are

17 specific standards for each product that are

18 being developed to measure active energy use

19 in a product, and that standard does not

20 undertake to do that.

21 So there are DOE test procedures

22 for measuring active energy use in a clothes

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1 dryer. There are other test procedures around

2 the world that are used to measure active

3 energy use.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: They don't choose

5 to define it themselves. They rely on DOE and

6 other test procedures?

7 MS. BRUNK: They define what

8 active mode should be, and then what they say

9 is that other standards should then define how

10 high active energy use is measured and then

11 further specify how standby and off mode

12 energy will be measured for those.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: So thank you. 

14 Thank you.

15 Gary.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So my conclusion

17 is we have a mode of operation we've

18 identified for which there is no test

19 procedure to determine the performance

20 measure.

21 MS. REICH: This is Judith Reich.

22 These are all very good inputs,

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1 but I'd like to clarify that the current test

2 procedure amendments are specifically for

3 addressing measuring standby and off mode

4 power. The reason why we introduce the

5 description of active mode is to say this is

6 not a standby situation that we're

7 considering, and so we are not in the current

8 rulemaking for this test procedure

9 contemplating how to more effectively measure

10 the active mode.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I see.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. That

13 helps a lot.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That helps a lot,

15 yeah. Okay, okay.

16 So then additional comments on

17 this point before we move on? Yes, one

18 moment. Luke, please.

19 MR. HARMS: This is Luke Harms

20 with Whirlpool.

21 Debra, correct me if I'm wrong,

22 but according to you IEC 62301 active mode

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1 would also include delay start and cycle

2 finish; is that correct?

3 MS. BRUNK: Yes, we'll get into

4 that, I think, with later comments.

5 MR. HARMS: All right.

6 MS. BRUNK: But thanks for

7 bringing that out.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

9 MS. REICH: We've already

10 discussed with the EISA definitions are for

11 standby modes, specifically the fact that it

12 provides some function, either the

13 reactivation of other functions or some

14 consumer interface or sensor based function.

15 The reason why it's also important

16 to define both active and standby mode up

17 front is that we are proposing amendments to

18 address off mode, and off mode is defined as

19 it's connected to the main power source and

20 isn't providing an active or standby mode

21 function. So we need to know what it is that

22 is excluded for off mode.

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1 Let's delve into the details of

2 what DOE is proposing to define as the

3 specific standby modes in off mode for each

4 product.

5 First, for clothes dryers,

6 apparently unlike what the new version of IEC

7 62301 is proposing, DOE is considering cycle

8 finished and delay start mode to be standby

9 modes rather than an active mode.

10 Cycle finish mode would be the

11 period after the drying or tumbling cycle is

12 completed, and that there is some sort of

13 continuous display available to the consumer,

14 whether that's status lights or a display

15 indicator that shows that that cycle has been

16 completed.

17 Delay start mode would occur prior

18 to the initiation of the tumbling cycle, and

19 in this case the user would be programming in

20 a certain period of time that the dryer would

21 be waiting prior to initiating the active

22 mode. Again, it's typically defined by a

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1 display that shows the number of hours

2 remaining until the start of that active cycle

3 as a one or two-digit display.

4 So the fact that both of these

5 modes provide some status or display

6 information to the consumer would categorize

7 that as a standby mode under the EPCA

8 definitions.

9 I talked about those first because

10 inactive mode then is a standby mode that has

11 some sort of a standby function, but that's

12 not a delay start or cycle finished.

13 And then finally, again, off mode

14 is a condition in which DOE interprets that

15 definition to say that the product is

16 consuming power, but not for any of the

17 functions that are specifically called out

18 under the EPCA definition of standby.

19 I certainly invite comment on

20 these specific modes, the inactive delay start

21 and cycle finish standby modes and the off

22 mode, and would further invite any discussion

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1 on whether there are additional modes that

2 haven't been identified.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Debra.

4 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM.

5 I think, again, we're going back

6 to the committee draft two version for our

7 comments. So you know where these are

8 referenced from. 

9 AHAM's feelings are that delay

10 start is not standby mode, again, based on

11 this CD2 version of IEC 62301. Specifically

12 in this draft it states delay start mode is a

13 one off user initiated, short duration

14 function that is associated with an active

15 mode, and I think, again, this just highlights

16 one of the clarifications in this draft that

17 we've been talking a lot in the last year

18 about where some of these things fall because

19 this very clearly specifies where IEC believes

20 this should fall, and we believe this makes

21 sense with kind of what we talked about

22 before.

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1 It's part of a cycle, and it is a

2 consumer use function. The consumer

3 determines what they want to do with that.

4 Secondly, cycle finished, very

5 similar issue there. We would argue that it

6 is not a standby function. It is a limited

7 time feature. I think it goes back to our 30

8 minute stabilization period. If that cycle

9 finish display is, you know, power down prior

10 to your -- you know, while you're stabilizing,

11 then you know, that would not be incorporated

12 into your standby power measurement.

13 Obviously, if it stayed on, it

14 would fall in there. So actually describing

15 it as the second mode or separate mode may not

16 actually make sense. It may just need to fall

17 into standby if it does not have the

18 capability of powering down.

19 I will say that the definition for

20 inactive mode is consistent with the CD2 draft

21 of IEC 62301, although it is a little, I

22 think, confusing, and I'm wondering if we

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1 might want to just call it a standby mode or

2 something like that to be consistent so

3 everyone is clear what that means, but

4 certainly the definition is consistent.

5 And then finally, I think one

6 thing that will come up, and it is something

7 that IEC is struggling with right now as well,

8 but the idea of not work mode is prevalent out

9 there in the international community. I think

10 when we start talking about things like peak

11 load sharing, ISO 2007, you know, requested

12 DOE and us to look into the smart grid

13 technologies. I think things along those

14 lines are going to come up.

15 So it's really a question of where

16 networking functions should fall, and I think

17 there are a couple of different things in

18 terms of how you look at what the appliance is

19 trying to do and where those fall, and again,

20 community draft two of IEC 62301 does address

21 some specifics on network load.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

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1 Gary.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: PG&E agrees with

3 AHAM, with the caveat that if network mode is

4 on all the time, we think that should be

5 considered a standby function. If it's on for

6 limited times the user selection, then it

7 should be part of active.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments

9 on this series of mode descriptions?

10 Okay.

11 MS. REICH: For room air

12 conditioners, we've already discussed what the

13 active mode is defined as, and again, I'm

14 going to start by talking about two standby

15 modes that DOE is proposing as distinct from

16 an active mode, and the first one of these

17 standby modes is delay start. It's similar to

18 delay start for a clothes dryer in which the

19 user programs a certain time at which the room

20 air conditioner would be activated, typically

21 characterized again by some sort of time

22 display showing remaining time prior to

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1 energization.

2 The off cycle mode has been

3 proposed as a condition in which the room air

4 conditioner is being used to provide cooling

5 on a time average sense, but during this

6 period there's a certain portion of the time

7 when the compressor and fan are cycled off,

8 turned off as a result of the temperature

9 sensor, indicating that at that point in time

10 no cooling is necessary.

11 But it's waiting for a signal from

12 a thermostat or the temperature sensor to tell

13 it that at a certain point when the ambient

14 temperature gets high enough that it would

15 come back on.

16 And it was considered that this

17 off cycle mode really could be thought of as

18 part of the active mode because the compressor

19 is cycling on and off and trying to maintain

20 on a large time scale the average temperature

21 of the room.

22 But it was noted that the existing

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1 DOE test procedure for active mode only covers

2 the condition when the compressor is turned

3 on, and that it was felt that this was a way

4 to capture that energy use during the period

5 when the compressor and fan are not operating.

6 Oh, let me go back up. The

7 inactive mode then would be a standby mode,

8 again, that's not delay start or off cycle

9 mode. And similar to clothes dryers as well,

10 the off mode would be a condition which the

11 room air conditioner is consuming power for

12 something, but not any of the features that

13 are associated with standby power.

14 Again, very interested to hear

15 inputs on the definitions of these various

16 modes and whether there are additional modes

17 that should be considered.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra.

19 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM.

20 Same comments on the delay start

21 as we have for the clothes dryers. The same

22 definition we believe would apply. 

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1 The off cycle load, as DOE

2 proposes it, is of concern to us. AHAM would

3 argue that that is an active mode and, again,

4 going back to this IEC 62301(c)(2), this draft

5 defines thermostats or temperature control

6 devices as part of the operating load or the

7 main function, and IEC 62301 then goes to

8 describe what active load is the main

9 function.

10 So, again, there's some

11 consistency or I should say some inconsistency

12 there with DOE's proposal and, again, these

13 clarifications on the draft of IEC 62301, and

14 AHAM does believe that thermostats should be

15 part of active load.

16 I think another thing to bring up

17 with both of these, delay start and the

18 thermostats, is these are features that could

19 be seen or should be seen as energy saving

20 devices, and what happens is if you start to

21 include these into a standby power -- and

22 Brice, help me out here if I'm wrong -- but

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1 what you end up with is these units actually

2 get penalized for having these energy saving

3 features, including standby power as opposed

4 to the active energy use.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Brice.

6 MR. BOWLEY: I'll comment on that.

7 I mean, again, the delay start and off cycle,

8 they're not available on a large number of

9 units. Most of the mechanical control units

10 don't have delay start or off cycle, and they

11 are intended to provide some energy savings to

12 the consumer.

13 Delay start, I mean, obviously,

14 you know, you leave your house in the morning,

15 you turn your air conditioner off and set it

16 to turn on two hours before you come back in

17 the evening. You know, that's considered an

18 energy savings for the consumers in our minds. 

19 You know, they're able to use that to maintain

20 control of their house and not use the

21 appliance throughout the day basically wasting

22 energy, and again, the off cycle is basically

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1 where you're cycling the compressor and the

2 fan off. Again, that's not available on most

3 mechanical units. Usually the fan runs

4 continuous. So the off cycle is, again, seen

5 as an energy saving function that, you know,

6 saves energy by turning the fan off when you

7 reach the set point temperatures.

8 And the way basically these

9 functions have been grouped under standby

10 power, you're penalizing appliances with delay

11 cycle and off cycle models. They actually

12 look like they use more energy than a

13 mechanical unit that doesn't have these

14 functions.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: I'd add that it's

17 confusing to think of the air conditioner

18 being in an off cycle when I've turned it on

19 and it's just at the point in its active

20 operation where the compression and maybe the

21 fan has chosen not to run because the cooling

22 requirements have been met.

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1 So in my mind it's not very

2 reasonable to consider that an off cycle mode. 

3 It's much more reasonable to consider it as

4 part of the active mode.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra.

6 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM.

7 I just want to make one more

8 comment again similar to what we made with

9 clothes dryers and certainly room air

10 conditioners also, have this issue of network

11 mode and your peak load power usage issues.

12 And so I think the idea of network

13 mode really gets to be a realistic and to be

14 consistent with the rest of the world, should

15 be incorporated into this test procedure.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you be more

17 specific in what way it would be incorporated?

18 MS. BRUNK: Well, again, I think

19 under clothes dryers I think it's a couple of

20 different things. I think if you're looking

21 at things like your peak load sharing, that

22 that really becomes an active mode because

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1 your interaction with the grid is going to

2 happen while the air conditioner is on.

3 I think other network modes if

4 there's other things going on inside the house

5 or whatever should be specifically placed

6 under this network mode, which is set aside by

7 IEC 62301.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

9 Gary Fernstrom.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, a further

11 thought on that. If the network mode energy

12 consumption to maintain communication with the

13 network and determine when an appropriate time

14 to operate is and is not is consuming energy

15 all the time, then I think it should be part

16 of standby. If it's like delayed start and

17 it's an occasional user activated

18 communication to maybe check and see what the

19 power grid condition is at the moment, then it

20 probably should be part of active mode.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional

22 comments? Yes, Brice and then --

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1 MR. BOWLEY: Well, one comment on

2 the network model, probably to Gary's point. 

3 My understanding, some utility companies are

4 basing rebates on, you know, peak load

5 sharing, but there are some requirements in

6 there that you can't turn off the peak load

7 sharing. I mean, that's the only concern.

8 I agree if we can turn off the

9 peak load sharing basically, you know,

10 consider it as network mode according to the

11 new IEC test procedure or new IEC standard, my

12 only concern is that some utility companies

13 may mandate us in order for consumers to get

14 the rebates stay in peak load bearing mode.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So

17 regardless of whether the utility mandates

18 that the communication capability be

19 continuous or intermittent, there is an

20 implication for standby power demand and

21 standby energy use, and I would hope that

22 these networks would be designed such that the

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1 power demand would be as low as possible and

2 the communication would be intermittent rather

3 than continuous, requiring a lot of annual

4 energy use.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary or pardon me. 

6 Harvey, did you have a comment?

7 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs.

8 I'm not sure if this is as

9 relevant to this product class as it is to

10 others, but in parallel with my comments on

11 clothes washers and tumbling efficiency, I

12 have a sense that one of the areas of future

13 product efficiency improvements is in the air

14 handling capabilities of the room air

15 conditioners. You're seeing a couple of

16 advanced motor types for small appliances. 

17 There are certainly some other options in

18 terms of the fans.

19 In that context it makes the

20 potential for the ventilate mode that's just

21 bringing in unconditioned air to be larger as

22 an energy saving opportunity, and as I'm

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1 listening to this conversation without having

2 read the test procedure, I am concerned that

3 we don't want to do something that would

4 penalize efforts to enable greater efficiency

5 paths through the air handling. In fact, if

6 anything, the test procedure somewhere -- and

7 I don't know if that's active or yet another

8 defined mode -- might want to be looking at

9 the ventilation efficiency as a surrogate for

10 the fan performance in general.

11 Again, I don't know how to do

12 this. I only want to flag this as an issue

13 where we want to encourage technology progress

14 rather than discouraging it.

15 Brice, I like your --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Are there

17 additional comments on this section? Because

18 we're going to shift to a different section

19 next, right? I would suggest maybe we're

20 about ready to take a break at this point. 

21 It's by my watch 10:40, and so I'd

22 like to suggest take a break and we can resume

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1 at five minutes till 11.

2 For those of you who aren't

3 familiar with the building -- I think most of

4 you are -- there are restrooms on both ends of

5 the hall. Down on it would be the ground

6 level, or is it one --

7 PARTICIPANT: Ground.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: -- ground, the

9 ground level, there is a coffee shop down

10 there and they have refreshments and the like. 

11 Please make sure you wear your badge while

12 you're in the building, and we're on the

13 eighth floor and 8E is the corridor so that

14 you can find your way back here.

15 Okay. So we're going to resume

16 five minutes to 11. Thanks for a good start

17 on the day.

18 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

19 went off the record at 10:41 a.m.

20 and went back on the record at

21 10:59 a.m.)

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So then we're going

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1 to continue. We are now going to hear from

2 Detlef, specifications for the test methods

3 and measurements for standby mode and off mode

4 testing.

5 MR. WESTPHALEN: Thanks, Doug.

6 And in case anybody didn't get my

7 name, Detlef Westphalen. I'm with Navigant

8 Consulting.

9 I'm going to be talking about, I

10 guess, the test procedures and, you know,

11 additional specifications beyond IEC 62301. 

12 As was discussed earlier, you know, the test

13 procedure has been based on the first version

14 of 62301, and you know, there may be some

15 debate there. If IEC could get a version two

16 pushed through immediately, then we could

17 seriously consider that.

18 But anyway, so 62301 was written

19 in a general way to allow specificity to be

20 put into different test procedures that would

21 be relevant to the particular products

22 involved, and so I'm going to be talking

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1 specifically about those additional

2 specifications.

3 First, for clothes dryers, auto

4 dimming displays, displays that might

5 initially come on at a higher energy level and

6 then dim down, DOE proposed that the test be

7 conducted after the power level has dropped to

8 its low level.

9 On delay start, I guess the

10 thought process and developing the approach

11 here comes out of observations of, you know,

12 what some of the different displays do, for

13 instance, indicating the hours until the main

14 function will start and different ways in

15 which that indication could be provided.

16 So there was also an observation

17 not specifically in tests of clothes dryers,

18 but other products that different indications

19 can lead to different standby wattage

20 measurements. So there was a desire to set a

21 standard test cycle for delayed start that

22 would cause numbers to be displayed that would

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1 provide a representative average of the range

2 of numbers which would be likely to be

3 displayed, you know, over the course of what,

4 you know, typical consumers would put their

5 dryers through, you k now, typical use

6 patterns.

7 And I'm not going to go into the

8 details of how this particular sequence was

9 set up, but that's sort of the thought process

10 that went through in order to get an average

11 representative wattage measurement out of this

12 test, and so we settled on setting the time

13 delay for five hours and then waiting for the

14 power equalization or stabilization and then

15 doing a 60 minute test.

16 For clothes dryers, test room

17 ambient temperature, DOE proposes test room

18 ambient temperature consistent with the IEC

19 standard. This is not identical to the

20 temperature range for dryer testing, but the

21 temperature range for dryer testing in the

22 current test procedure is within the IEC

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1 range.

2 And so manufacturers would have

3 the option depending on how they test the

4 dryer if it's sequentially a test chamber that

5 would also test the drying functions that they

6 could use either range, you know. If they

7 test the product separately from a dryer main

8 function, then they could use the more relaxed

9 IEC standard.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Could we go back

12 to the ambient for a moment? If I understand

13 this correctly, the room from which the dryer

14 draws make-up air could be 73 degrees plus or

15 minus nine degrees. Is that correct or am I

16 misunderstanding here?

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, what we're

18 talking about is now specific specifications

19 for a standby test, not a dryer performance

20 test.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional

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1 questions on this or comments?

2 (No response.)

3 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Now, for

4 room air conditioners, some additional

5 specifications. We're following a similar

6 procedure, you know, similar thought process

7 in coming up with the delay start

8 specification, the test specification, and we

9 essentially came up with exactly the same

10 procedure using -- set the time delay for five

11 hours after stabilization to a 60 minute test.

12 Now, specifications for standby

13 and off mode testing of room air conditioners

14 on test room temperature, essentially the

15 specification here that was proposed is using

16 74 plus or minus two Fahrenheit and to use a

17 set point temperature of 79, and again sort of

18 a similar thought process that was followed

19 for setting the delay start specifications

20 that we wanted to select conditions which

21 provides representative average level of

22 wattage in what the display might be using

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1 that would represent a broad range of, you

2 know, the likely conditions that consumers and

3 the product would see.

4 And so we settled on the 74 plus

5 or minus two. Now, the understanding is that

6 some room air conditioners might have a

7 temperature display that is the actual room

8 temperature and some might have a temperature

9 display which is the set point temperature. 

10 So we wanted to capture both of those in, you

11 know, a reasonable band and obviously with

12 more leniency on the set point temperature for

13 the space or the room ambient temperature

14 because that would be more difficult to

15 control.

16 And so we settled on the 74 plus

17 or minus two and the 79 for the set point. 

18 These conditions obviously are a little bit

19 different than the ASHRAE 16-80 plus or minus

20 half a degree Fahrenheit, which is specified,

21 you know, for the DOE cooling performance

22 test. But the feeling is that these, number

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1 one, would be perhaps more representative of

2 the actual -- the 74 would be perhaps more

3 representative of the actual space condition

4 during actual use of the product and also

5 setting the set point higher than the ambient

6 was selected so that the unit wouldn't

7 actually be running and that you'd actually be

8 in a standby mode.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Brice.

10 MR. BOWLEY: A question regarding

11 this. Is the room temperature setting, is

12 this just for delay start or is this proposal

13 also for off cycle?

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, this was

15 done for all the standby testing. Okay. 

16 You're going to have a test room for standby. 

17 You wouldn't necessarily change the

18 temperature if you then test off mode or

19 inactive mode.

20 And so we invite comments.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on delay

22 start test procedure, Debra.

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1 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM.

2 I think just as was noted earlier,

3 AHAM believes that delay start should actually

4 be incorporated into active energy. I think

5 some of the considerations that DOE has put

6 forward in terms of how that might be measured

7 should be looked at for the active energy test

8 procedure perhaps.

9 One concern there is the

10 measurement and the fact that it can be

11 measuring a very, very small amount of energy

12 over, you know, a ten minute time frame

13 roughly and then incorporating that into the

14 much larger active energy use does lead to

15 some issues with accuracy.

16 I think the other concern that we

17 would just have is I think it would make sense

18 if DOE were to decide to measure delay start

19 or incorporate an actual procedure for

20 measuring delay start. It really should be

21 consistent with, again, kind of carrying on

22 this consistency mainly with IEC if it were

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1 decided that it would be measured in some kind

2 of standby mode that you have your 30 minute

3 stabilization period and then your ten minute

4 measurement period.

5 Again, AHAM doesn't support that

6 approach but rather supports the approach of

7 incorporating it into an active mode

8 measurement. And this would be true for both

9 clothes dryers and room air conditioners.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Brice.

11 MR. BOWLEY: A couple of comments,

12 one being the room temperature. You know,

13 basically we're putting a very tight tolerance

14 around this room temperature control with this

15 product which requires, you know, specialized

16 rooms and labs, which we have for measuring

17 the energy consumption during the active power

18 model.

19 But basically to stabilize a room

20 takes a significant amount of time, and to

21 have basically a lower temperature means there

22 has to be a dedicated room other than the room

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1 used for measuring active power. So it does

2 add to the requirements for testing. 

3 Basically it would be a dedicated facility

4 just for measuring standby.

5 Looking through the test

6 procedures and the proposals, the only

7 function that actually would require a

8 different temperature setting than the 80

9 degrees would be potentially the off cycle

10 model, and when you look at the energy

11 calculations, I know there's a question later

12 on, but it accounts for approximately 0.01

13 percent of the total energy use of the

14 project.

15 Again, we think of that as an

16 active mode cycling off of the thermostat. It

17 contributes very little to the actual energy

18 use, and it adds a lot of burden to the

19 manufacturers to have to add a new facility

20 just to accommodate this new temperature

21 range.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Harvey.

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1 MR. SACHS: If it cannot be shown

2 that the temperature range tightness is

3 required, we certainly don't have problems

4 with relaxation. I would only want the record

5 to reflect that the fraction of the energy use

6 for the electric dryer in this cycle is quite

7 different from the fraction for the gas dryer. 

8 Electricity use has become an energy

9 consideration that has been introduced. 

10 So the .01 percent would probably

11 not be a good reflection of the energy use for

12 the gas dryer. I think that's why we're

13 having this conversation.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

15 Yes, Brice.

16 MR. BOWLEY: One other comment. 

17 These have very defined set points where we

18 set at 79 degrees, but many of them we have

19 units that have basically mechanical control

20 knobs that still have some of these functions

21 that you would be measuring and there's no set

22 temperature to actually -- you know, I can't

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1 set it to 79 degrees.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So what then

3 would you propose?

4 MR. BOWLEY: Well, again, really

5 the only time we're interested in this, again,

6 is off cycle. So my proposal would be that we

7 consider off cycle an active mode and not try

8 to incorporate it into the standard. But

9 let's see. Basically it would be just to set

10 it to a low temperature -- to the highest

11 temperature. Excuse me. To set it to the

12 highest temperature and leave the room at 80

13 degrees. I think most of the units would

14 accommodate that.

15 My proposal would be to include in

16 the active mode.

17 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, I think if

18 you had a mechanical unit, you wouldn't be

19 measuring -- you may be measuring off cycle,

20 but you wouldn't see differences because there

21 wouldn't be a display.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional

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1 comments? Yes, Debra.

2 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM.

3 Just additional comments to

4 support G.E.'s comments in regards

5 specifically to room air conditioners. Again,

6 there is the issue of the difference in the

7 ambient temperatures between the standby mode

8 measurements and the active mode measurements

9 and that is some concern. Again, we're

10 looking at different test chambers, and that

11 can be difficult when you're trying to do

12 these climate control rooms.

13 I think the other concern that

14 Brice brought up is as we mentioned before,

15 this off cycle measurement of the thermostat

16 we feel really should be put into active mode,

17 and if you do that, then that no longer

18 becomes an issue for what the temperature

19 needs to be for measuring standby. That could

20 actually be measured then in the control room

21 that you do for the active test, and it still

22 is within the IEC bounds. It's on the upper

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1 end, but it is within the IEC bounds for the

2 temperature specifications.

3 MR. LEWIS: Before you move on.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. Ron

5 Lewis.

6 MR. LEWIS: I just checked with

7 General Counsel on some issues that came up

8 earlier, and I was correct that we can't

9 incorporate anything in the draft that has not

10 been approved and is not a final product. The

11 pathways that may be open to us as far as

12 flexibility with language, the quickest

13 pathways if it's just a correction, so if the

14 draft two was only correcting errors in the

15 earlier version and there wasn't anything of

16 substance, there's a quick way to do that, but

17 what I heard this morning it didn't sound like

18 that was limited to corrections. It's changes

19 in actual criteria.

20 So we need to look at the

21 language, and the more you can put in your

22 comments as far as specifics and trying to see

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1 how we can incorporate it, but it is not

2 possible for us to reference a document that

3 has not been approved and incorporate it by

4 reference.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

6 So then before we move on,

7 additional comments on delay start test

8 procedure.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think these

10 comments apply to all of the specifications

11 regarding all of the test procedures.

12 I think we already covered

13 comments on test room conditions. So the next

14 section addresses calculation of energy use

15 associated with standby modes and off mode.

16 I guess first of all, calculating

17 the energy use essentially is wattage times

18 hours in the year equals energy use for the

19 year. That's pretty straightforward. What's

20 not straightforward is establishing what are

21 the correct number of hours per unit, and so

22 most of this discussion addresses that.

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1 So starting with clothes dryers,

2 looking at the current test procedure, there

3 is a precedent set by the gas pilot where

4 number of hours are selected as being active

5 mode hours per year, specifically 140, and

6 that the rest of the year is associated with

7 the gas pilot or standby mode.

8 So DOE proposes to adopt the 140

9 hours that set as a precedent for the active

10 mode, and then associate the remaining eight,

11 620 hours with standby and off modes. 

12 And so some investigation was

13 done, really very limited data that would

14 really indicate how many hours are associated

15 with each of these modes, especially since

16 some of these features of these products

17 haven't really made their way into the bulk of

18 the existing market.

19 One study that was looked at was

20 one conducted in 2000 in Australia. That

21 admittedly is some time ago. The average age

22 of the dryers was 11 years, which puts us back

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1 to 1989. However, here's some information. 

2 There's probably less drying going on in

3 Australia, 15 minutes for drying in the active

4 mode per day.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: It's one a dry

7 day. They dry their clothes on one.

8 Zero time for delay start and

9 active standby, and there again looking at the

10 average age of these dryers, one might surmise

11 that they have mechanical controls and don't

12 have these modes. And then the remaining

13 hours were split five percent per cycle

14 finished or what was called in Australia end

15 of program, and then 90 percent for off mode.

16 So as mentioned, due to the

17 suspicion that the average age of the dryers

18 in the study is such that they probably didn't

19 have, you know, all of these modes, you know,

20 we're not going to draw conclusions about the

21 zero hours spent in those modes.

22 A different study that we found

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1 upon clothes washers in Australia and New

2 Zealand, and this was on products that were

3 actually monitored, and they did have more

4 sophisticated controls and they could be

5 monitored, showed that the average amount of

6 time spent in delay start mode per wash cycle

7 was approximately five minutes.

8 And we feel that in the absence of

9 additional good or better data, that you know,

10 the results for clothes washers could be

11 applied to dryers.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: A comment on that. 

14 If you were to average the time associated

15 with delayed start, you'd be averaging a few

16 uses of the delayed start feature with many

17 non-uses. So you probably would get a very

18 low average.

19 However, for those people using

20 the delayed start, the delay might be

21 significantly longer than five minutes, right?

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: Correct. The

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1 attempt is to come up with a time that if

2 averaged out over, you know, a representative

3 population of users, you know, this is time

4 per cycle or time per year.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Thank you.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: And obviously, if

7 you use it differently, you'd have different

8 results.

9 So based on these two information

10 sources, you know, a typical modern clothes

11 dryer might spend a small amount of time in

12 delay start. Here we're using the five-minute

13 per cycle suggestion. The 416 cycles per

14 year, which is specified in the DOE test

15 procedure, giving 34 hours per year for delay

16 start limit.

17 And then the time not associated

18 with active mode or delay start mode we're

19 proposing to be split as suggested by the

20 dryer study, five percent to cycle finished

21 and 95 percent to off or inactive mode. I'll

22 talk more about the off and inactive and how

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1 that splits.

2 But for a representative dryer, I

3 believe this is energy factor 3.01. You know,

4 this is how the energy use might stack up

5 according to these estimates of hours, and

6 here we have a representative of typical

7 wattages. The wattage for the active mode is

8 simply dividing the annual energy use by the

9 hours that are specified in the test

10 procedure.

11 Delay start, 34 hours, as

12 mentioned previously, the suggestion that

13 maybe there will be three watts. I mean,

14 there are ranges. It's in the ball park. It

15 might be a little bit high for a modern

16 product. You know, you get annual energy use

17 of .1 and, you know, likewise for the other

18 modes, and so this gives some indication of

19 how much energy is used for these standby and

20 off modes.

21 And so depending on which of these

22 modes are present in a particular product, you

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1 have a matrix of hours that would be

2 associated with, and this can be described

3 through logical statements as it is in the

4 test procedure draft.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 

6 Yes, I presume that as we're going

7 through these charts that people are going to

8 comment if they don't agree with these

9 assumptions or these derivations.

10 Gary.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Could we go back

12 to the last chart, please? Clearly, the

13 annual energy use associated with delayed

14 start and finish cycle is pretty

15 insignificant. Are we capturing in these

16 measurements the energy use associated with

17 the display that the appliance might have?

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, when the

19 measurement is made, that would measure the

20 wattage consumed by the display and anything

21 else that might be active -- sorry -- that

22 might be energized -- don't want to use the

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1 term "active" in the wrong sense -- and that

2 might, you know, add up to the three watts

3 roughly that we're talkinga bout.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So the display

5 energy use would be captured in the mode off

6 or inactive; is that correct?

7 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yes. If

8 there's a display when the unit is in off or

9 inactive mode, it would be captured in the off

10 or inactive measurement. There might be a

11 display in some of these other modes as well

12 that would be captured in the measurement for

13 those modes.

14 Does that answer the question?

15 MR. FERNSTROM: I believe it does. 

16 So an annual energy use in the range of four

17 to 24 kilowatt hours is pretty low, and that

18 would indicate that for the 8760 hours a year

19 minus the number of hours the appliance's

20 inactive delayed start and cycle finish mode,

21 which would be a larger number of annual

22 operating hours, the power demand presented by

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1 the display would have to be very, very low.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, yeah. I

3 mean, manufacturers can comment if the half to

4 three is representative of products, but --

5 MR. FERNSTROM: So let me ask the

6 manufacturers. Do current dryers in

7 production have very, very lower power demand

8 displays?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I see a few

10 manufacturers nodding their head. Brice,

11 you'll speak on the record?

12 MR. BOWLEY: This is Brice Bowley,

13 G.E.

14 I can't answer specifically for

15 dryers, but as far as displays, the half to

16 three watts is typical of displays on other

17 appliances. So I expect that would be typical

18 of dryers as well.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, go ahead. 

20 Debra.

21 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk

22 from AHAM.

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1 All I would want to say is, yes,

2 we believe these are typical. I think one

3 thing to be careful of here though is we're

4 kind of in the chicken and the egg scenario

5 here. We were just kind of finishing up, I

6 would say, at least from the U.S. perspective

7 defining some of these definite defining

8 standby mode and off mode and all of that kind

9 of thing.

10 So I think once we feel now we

11 have a fairly good route is now we can go back

12 and actually measure these and have some

13 better idea of whether all of our products

14 fall into these rounds. I think before this

15 we've had difficulty doing that because of the

16 vagueness of some of these test procedures.

17 So, again, I would mention that

18 our senses, yes, I think these numbers are

19 good and based on the small amount of data

20 available not only on use and standby modes

21 and those kinds of things, we think this is

22 probably fairly representative.

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1 I think once we have a more

2 finalized test procedure for measuring standby

3 mode and off mode, we would certainly have a

4 better idea of if these numbers are realistic

5 and can comment more effectively on that.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Paige.

7 MS. DETRICK: Yes, Paige Detrick,

8 ESH.

9 Yeah, I can't comment on exactly

10 numbers for the reasons cited by Debra and

11 others. However, they are typically very,

12 very low because these displays are simple,

13 small count LED type displays pretty much

14 exclusively I'd say.

15 However, these very, very small

16 amounts of energy go back to some of the other

17 comments that have been made about the

18 difficulty in measuring that kind of tiny

19 amount of energy with great accuracy, and

20 multiplying it out you get more error from

21 this than perhaps it's worth, and this goes

22 back to the suggestion that a factor, a

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1 correction factor be placed in and included in

2 active mode rather than some of these things

3 being split out into little, tiny minuscule

4 pieces and trying to sum them back up.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Is there a

7 suggestion there that the test equipment

8 required, for instance, by IEC 62301 really

9 doesn't provide enough accuracy?

10 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk

11 from AHAM.

12 I don't think there are issues

13 with the test equipment per se. I think it

14 comes down to if you are measuring a very low

15 wattage, and I think they're going to take it

16 down to, say, half a watt. I think there's

17 some degree of accuracy there or precision,

18 which. I always get confused which is which,

19 but as soon as you start multiplying by a lot

20 of these assumptions, it just becomes somewhat

21 -- you're taking a very, very small number and

22 then multiplying it, you know.

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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis.

2 MR. LEWIS: I just want to. 

3 Earlier today somebody had reminded us at a

4 very appropriate time that the issue today was

5 to look at standby mode and active mode,

6 standby and off mode, that the statute that

7 we're responding to here, that we're doing

8 this amendment to an existing test procedure

9 was specifically referencing the IEC existing

10 standard, and it specifically commanded us,

11 directed us to go and look at these

12 provisions, the standby and the off mode.

13 So we're executing what we're

14 directed to do. So the logic in trying to

15 discriminate between what is standby and what

16 is off, we're trying to be as precise as we

17 can be and be in concert with the IEC

18 definition as much as possible and try to do

19 all of the things we're directed to do.

20 As far as the logic and the

21 difficulties with precision, being able to

22 measure something where we want to be

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1 sensitive to that, it's only within the degree

2 of, you know, what we're commanded to do. If

3 we're commanded to define and there's a

4 definition for standby, then the consequence

5 of that definition is you need to measure it. 

6 So, you know, in looking at how we go about

7 that, then how that goes into a standard, you

8 know, that this test procedure is only to show

9 that you're in compliance with the standard,

10 that's another question for the future on the

11 tolerances.

12 But I think there are many things

13 in play, and we need to once in a while go

14 back and recheck what is the actual mission

15 here, and the mission is we were directed by

16 Congress to look at standby and off mode. 

17 What is connected to that, the definitions,

18 the IEC relationship.

19 So this was not a free form DOE go

20 do what you want to do with it. So the

21 discussion is always helpful to understand the

22 complexities, but it doesn't necessarily mean

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1 that we have the flexibility to make a lot of

2 changes.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, Doug,

5 I'd like to make an observation about the off

6 and inactive energy use, and four to 24

7 kilowatt hours a year might not seem like

8 much, particularly relative to the 967

9 estimated in active mode. However, when

10 you've got a gazillion appliances around the

11 house, your dryer, your washer, your

12 dishwasher, your refrigerator, your microwave,

13 your oven, all of these things, having this

14 standby energy use, it adds up, and we would

15 very much like to see the annual use be down

16 in the range of four to eight kilowatt hours

17 rather than up toward the 24 kilowatt hour end

18 of the range because there are many appliances

19 that add up in the home using this energy.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

21 Additional comments on this chart

22 and these figures and imbedded assumptions?

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1 (No response.)

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think we talked

3 about the matrix of hours.

4 Then the next topic here is

5 splitting the off and inactive modes. We have

6 a number of hours here in off and inactive

7 mode depending on what modes are possible for

8 the product, and then how do you split those

9 between off and inactive?

10 So DOE proposes that if both modes

11 are available or possible for the product,

12 that you split them half and half in the

13 absence of any good, solid information as to

14 what would be more reasonable. If only

15 inactive mode is possible for the product,

16 then obviously that would be the mode that

17 would have those hours, and if only off mode

18 is available, then obviously that mode would

19 be associated with those hours.

20 And this slide just basically says

21 what I said earlier, that energy use is for

22 each mode the wattage time the hours, and then

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1 you sum up the results, make some conversions

2 so that we're talkinga bout kilowatt hours,

3 and then for the per cycle energy, divide by

4 the 416 cycles per year for a dryer.

5 Now, we have also presented an

6 alternative approach to what I've just

7 discussed and basically observing that in this

8 table here that the amount of energy

9 associated with the delay start and cycle

10 finish is actually pretty low, and so another

11 possibility is that we only specify hours for

12 off and inactive modes and basically take all

13 of the 8,620 hours which are not associated

14 with active mode and allocate them to inactive

15 and off. So that's an alternative proposal

16 that could be considered.

17 And at this point I guess we

18 request comment on all of the foregoing, on

19 establishing the energy use and standby of the

20 dryers.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra.

22 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk.

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1 I think we've covered a little bit

2 around the accuracy on these tests. Again, I

3 think, you know, in general AHAM supports the

4 estimates that DOE has come up for these

5 values, but I think ultimately the alternative

6 approach -- we've spent a lot of time talking

7 about this -- the alternative approach we

8 believe makes the most sense where you're

9 talking -- let me make sure I get the right

10 wording here -- you're often in the active o

11 defining those together and looking at those

12 wholly, and your delay start and cycle finish,

13 because they are low energy use, are not

14 really taken into account, so to speak, and I

15 think that also goes with our earlier

16 proposal, is that those would just get rolled

17 up int active mode, and I think the only thing

18 we might request is that there just be some

19 specification at some point where those

20 actually do fall into.

21 But I think just from the energy

22 that we're talking about and the simplicity

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1 and actually carrying out the test, coming the

2 off and the inactive both could be measured

3 separately but then combining them and

4 calculating hours for those would make the

5 most sense.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Can I just get

7 some clarification? Are you taking the step

8 or suggesting that some of the hours that we

9 suggested might be associated with off cycle

10 or delay start, would then be -- I'm mixing

11 products here, cycle finish -- would then be

12 allocated as active mode hours so that we're

13 essentially reducing the 8620 a little bit?

14 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk.

15 I think that would be correct and

16 would be consistent with our proposal earlier

17 in terms of privatization with IEC, just to

18 keep things clear.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional

21 comments? Yes, Brice.

22 MR. BOWLEY: Brice at G.E.

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1 The only concern I would have

2 about allocating the cycle finish and delay

3 into the active, to adding those hours there

4 is basically if you're adding those additional

5 hours without the actual heat, I mean, it

6 seems like you need the test revised before

7 you start adding those hours to the active

8 model and multiply it to get your energy usage

9 because those, again, are low energy use

10 functions, and if you add those hours to the

11 active model, it's going to inaccurately

12 inflate the actual energy usage.

13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Okay. I don't

14 think that's -- I mean, I even thought through

15 exactly what Debra's suggestion would lead to,

16 but I don't think that would necessarily mean

17 that, I mean, unless you're separately

18 measuring those modes and then somehow adding

19 them in.

20 MR. BOWLEY: Well, what I'm saying

21 is right now we have active at 140 and all

22 other modes at 8620, right?

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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: I guess my point

2 is just that the 140 hours doesn't factor into

3 the annual energy use calculation at all for

4 active mode.

5 MR. BOWLEY: Okay.

6 MR. WESTPHALEN: So I don't think

7 it would.

8 MR. BOWLEY: Okay.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: By following her

10 suggestion, it would only reduce the 8620 and

11 reduce the amount of energy associated with

12 that inactive and off.

13 Okay. So we'll move on to

14 calculating energy use for standby and off

15 modes for room air conditioners. And, again,

16 it's the same situation. The energy use is

17 the wattage times the hours per year, and then

18 summing up the energy use for the different

19 modes.

20 And the key challenge is to

21 determine and agree on what are the

22 appropriate number of hours. And so one of

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1 the first observations made is that, well, not

2 all room air conditioners are plugged in

3 throughout the year, and DOE made an estimate

4 of how much unplugged time there is on average

5 spread out over all air conditioners by

6 assuming that half of the units are unplugged

7 for half the year. 

8 And you know, if there is better

9 data than that assumption out there, we

10 welcome that. But basically that adds up to

11 2,190 average annual unplugged hours. So the

12 plugged in hours add up to 6,570 essentially

13 subtracting the two numbers.

14 Now, the cooling season, this gets

15 a little bit more complicated for room AC than

16 for dryers, and we'll step through it step by

17 step here. It's assumed that the prime

18 cooling season lasts 90 days a year, which is

19 2,160 hours, essentially three months, and

20 that during this time, the room air

21 conditioners spend 750 in active cooling mode.

22 Now, that's the number of hours

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1 associated with active cooling mode in the

2 current test procedure.

3 Looking at delay start, it is

4 assumed that ten percent of room air

5 conditioners that have a delay start mode

6 function will using the function for ten hours

7 a day during the cooling season, and again,

8 you know, if there are good estimates of what

9 would be more accurate estimate of typical

10 usage patterns, we welcome that.

11 Ninety days times ten hours a day

12 for ten percent of the units, that's average

13 90 hours annually in delay start mode. 

14 So then of the 2160 cooling season

15 hours, we subtract the 750 active cooling mode

16 hours and the 90 annual averaged out delay

17 start mode hours, and we get 1,320 remaining

18 cooling season hours, and then we make sort of

19 an arbitrary assumption here that we think

20 it's reasonable that these hours might be

21 split equally into the three of these modes

22 listed below that are applicable for that

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1 particular product.

2 Fan only mode, this is the mode in

3 which, for instance, for a mechanical control

4 unit in which the compressor shuts down and

5 the unit is in constant fan mode when the

6 compressor is cycled off. Some units also

7 have the option for the user to set the

8 ventilation mode. 

9 Then off cycle mode for some of

10 those hours, and then inactive mode.

11 So the inactive and/or off mode

12 hours, we have some of those as discussed in

13 the previous slide from the cooling system,

14 and then for the rest of the year it's assumed

15 that all of those remaining hours are off and

16 inactive. So that would add up to 4,410,

17 which are then added to the cooling season

18 off, inactive hours.

19 So for an example, where three of

20 those possible modes are applicable for the

21 product, we have 440 additional hours that

22 would add to the 4410 to get for this product

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1 4850 annual inactive and off mode hours.

2 And so for a typical product and

3 8,000 BTU per hour room air conditioner with

4 a 9 EER rating, if all the modes are 

5 possible, we get the following breakdown of

6 the hours, and I've also indicated typical

7 wattages, again, and some of these numbers are

8 a little bit different than what we've seen on

9 the dryer chart, but they're essentially the

10 same order of magnitude.

11 And then we get the annual energy

12 use calculation for these different modes,

13 pretty much the same as I showed on dryers.

14 And, again, you know, we have the

15 matrix of hours that would be established for

16 each product depending on which of the modes 

17 are applicable for it.

18 Again, splitting the off and

19 inactive modes into which ones are appropriate

20 depends on the product. If the product is

21 capable of having both of these modes, then

22 the proposal is to split those hours equally.

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1 And again, the calculation is for

2 each mode wattage times the hours for the year

3 gives the energy, and then divide by 1,000 to

4 convert to kilowatt hours.

5 Again, we have put forth this

6 alternative approach, recognizing that the

7 delay start and off cycle modes represent a

8 small number of hours leading to a small

9 amount of energy use, and that an alternative

10 proposal might be that we associate all of the

11 non-active hours, which totals 5,115, allocate

12 those to inactive and off modes.

13 So we seek comment on all of that,

14 establishment of the hours for the different 

15 modes.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Debra.

17 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk from AHAM.

18 I think similar to what we

19 mentioned with the clothes dryers, we would

20 support DOE's alternative proposal, again,

21 just for simplicity.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Brice.

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1 MR. BOWLEY: Yeah, again, G.E.

2 would support the alternate proposal of

3 measuring just active and the off and

4 inactive, again, since delay start and off

5 cycle represent a very low energy usage.

6 Another comment on this is that

7 the delay start and off cycle, really the

8 hours again there come off of the active mode. 

9 I mean, you're not -- the off cycle would not

10 -- whether a product has off cycle or not,

11 would not affect the amount of standby time

12 because it's going to affect the amount of

13 actual active run time.

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: You're saying the

15 off cycle --

16 MR. BOWLEY: Well, an off cycle

17 does not reduce the amount of standby time. 

18 It reduces the amount of active run time.

19 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I guess

20 according to the way -- I mean, we're talking

21 about 750 hours active.

22 MR. BOWLEY: I understand.

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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: And I understand

2 that for a given situation -- I think your

3 comment applies perhaps more to the delay

4 start than the off cycle.

5 MR. BOWLEY: I think it applies to

6 both really, and you're not reducing the

7 compressor run time. You're reducing the fan

8 run time.

9 Well, I'm sorry. Delay start

10 reduces both, compressor and fan.

11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right.

12 MR. BOWLEY: Off cycle reduces fan

13 run time.

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: Right, but nobody

15 is measuring fan only.

16 MR. BOWLEY: I understand, but I

17 mean, the point is the way it's written now

18 and the way the hours are allocated is why a

19 mechanical unit without delay start and off

20 cycle, the mechanical unit without those

21 functions seems to perform better than a unit

22 with those functions because they're all

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1 allocated to a standard.

2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, I

3 understand.

4 MR. BOWLEY: Okay.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on

6 this series of slides?

7 MR. SACHS: I would just say that

8 we would share that concern of features that

9 really tend to discourage the advanced

10 technologies.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Harvey.

12 Okay. Judith, are you up net or

13 are you continuing?

14 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think Judy was

15 going to be presenting the measures of energy.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

17 MS. REICH: All right. The next

18 topic is fairly straight forward. It's what

19 are the proposed measures for energy

20 consumption that incorporate these standby and

21 off mode energy consumption. 

22 We first note that the existing

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1 test procedures provide several energy

2 consumption metrics. For clothes dryers these

3 are defined on a per cycle basis and very

4 straightforward for electric dryers. It's

5 simply the total per cycle consumption of

6 electricity.

7 For gas dryers different

8 measurements are made for the electrical

9 energy consumption, for the controls and the 

10 motor, and the gas consumption for both the

11 drying function and for any standing pilot.

12 And then these are all rolled

13 together into a total energy consumption for

14 gas dryers that is expressed both in BTUs and

15 kilowatt hours.

16 Regardless of whether it's a gas

17 or electric dryer, that's converted to an

18 energy factor parameter which is, again on a

19 per cycle basis. It's the weight of the test

20 cloth load divided by the total energy

21 consumption expressed in actually I believe

22 that's watt-hours, kilowatt hours -- I'm sorry

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1 -- per cycle.

2 For room air conditioners, the

3 metrics are defined conversely on an annual

4 basis. So there are two of them in annual

5 energy consumption in kilowatt hours and in

6 EER. EER I'll talk about in a moment. It's

7 basically the cooling capacity times the

8 number of hours. It's in cooling mode divided

9 by the energy consumption.

10 EISA 2007 is very specific on how

11 we are supposed to handle integrating standby

12 and off mode measurements, and it basically

13 says that DOE shall roll together the energy

14 consumption, standby and off mode, into the

15 existing energy metrics unless either the test

16 procedure already fully accounts for these

17 standby and off modes or it's technically

18 infeasible to put them together.

19 And then further, if it is

20 technically infeasible to roll them together,

21 that DOE is required to prescribe a separate

22 prescriptive standby and off mode limit unless

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1 that, too, is technically infeasible.

2 The issue of this technical

3 feasibility of incorporating active and

4 standby mode energy use into the single metric

5 was explored by DOE, and it was considered

6 that there are test procedures that do

7 incorporate a per cycle efficiency measurement

8 with standby energy use where standby is

9 measured over a long period of time, and it

10 was determined that putting these two metrics

11 that are defined on different bases does have

12 meaning if the difference between the primary

13 or active mode energy use is so large that

14 putting in this small percentage of energy

15 that's measured over longer periods of time

16 does not substantially impact that overall per

17 cycle measurement as would be the case for 

18 clothes dryers.

19 And actually for room air

20 conditioners you're comparing them on the same

21 basis in terms of annual energy consumption

22 for each mode. So that by definition would be

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1 a technically feasible action to perform. 

2 So it was determine and DOE is

3 proposing that for both products, standby and

4 off mode energy consumption, be incorporated

5 into the existing metrics for the energy

6 conservation standards.

7 Therefore, DOE is proposing to add

8 to the test procedure several integrated

9 measures of standby and active mode energy

10 consumption, and these would be in addition to

11 the existing metrics that are already defined.

12 First, for clothes dryers, the

13 proposed metric for total energy consumption

14 per cycle would be this integrated per cycle

15 measurement. Again, for electric clothes

16 dryers, it's very straightforward. It just

17 adds in together the electricity that's used

18 for the active mode per cycle with what's used

19 in standby.

20 For gas dryers, the integrated

21 metric rolls together the electricity

22 consumption in standby and off modes with the

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1 equivalent total combined gas and electric

2 energy consumption in active mode that's

3 expressed in kilowatt hours.

4 This is then used to define an

5 integrated energy factor, very similar to the

6 original energy factor, which is the test load

7 weight divided by this integrated energy

8 consumption.

9 An analogous situation exists for

10 the proposal for room air conditioners where

11 ODE is adding, proposing to add in an

12 integrated annual energy consumption metric,

13 which is very straightforward, active plus

14 standby, in defining an integrated EER with

15 the same definition of the cooling capacity in

16 BTU per hour times the 750 assumed cooling

17 mode hours divided by this integrated annual

18 energy consumption expressed in watt hours.

19 At this point I would like to

20 invite comment on these integrated metrics.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Debra.

22 MS. BRUNK: Debra Brunk with AHAM.

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1 AHAM would support DOE's proposal

2 to combine these metrics and incorporate the

3 standby and off mode energy into the overall

4 energy use product. Looking at the proposals

5 for the integrated energies or integrated

6 factors, we tentatively support these. We

7 need to look at them in a little bit more

8 detail.

9 I do have one question though. 

10 Judy, you had mentioned that these are in

11 addition to the existing metrics already

12 defined. So is DOE proposing actually going

13 forward with a per cycle total energy

14 consumption and a per cycle integrated total

15 energy consumption for clothes dryers as well

16 as an EF and integrated EF?

17 MS. REICH: Well, I think it is

18 important to realize this is just for the test

19 procedure as opposed to for the standards and

20 the intent is that when the test procedure

21 becomes effective in the standards, there will

22 be or it will not be required to be used to

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1 measure the integrated metrics until the new

2 standard comes into place, and at that point

3 there will be the clarifying language that

4 says it, that you don't need to measure those

5 integrated parameters. That clarification

6 would be removed so that the standard then

7 would be based on the integrated measurements.

8 But the intent was to leave the

9 existing metrics in place and available for

10 use up until the time that the new standard

11 becomes effective.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey.

13 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs.

14 Please let these comments be taken

15 as a placeholder, but I guess I'm very

16 concerned that the public policy objective in

17 EISA as I have followed it and understood it

18 was to encourage limitations of the amount of

19 energy wasted when the machine is not doing

20 its job, whatever class of machine that is.

21 And from that perspective,

22 recognizing that we have several different

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1 categories of not doing the job, the

2 difference between at lease and parade rest,

3 if you want to use a military analogy, it

4 would seem to me that it would be far more

5 straightforward given that we have to measure

6 these things anyhow to simply have a

7 limitation on the wattage at each of these

8 non-operating cycle conditions, and this would

9 offer the direct encouragement to the

10 manufacturers to incorporate things like the

11 good power supplies that lead us to less

12 wasted energy when the machine is not doing

13 its job.

14 And thus, I would -- again not

15 offering this as an official position now, I'm

16 not sure why we're doing all of this running

17 around the room and mixing in source use of

18 gas with site use of electricity and all of

19 this other stuff to present these integrated

20 measures that don't help us get to

21 minimization of the relatively small

22 contribution of the non-duty cycle energy use.

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1 MS. REICH: Right. I don't

2 disagree with perhaps the intent or outcome,

3 but there is a statutory requirement in EISA

4 that says if it is technically feasible to

5 integrate it, DOE shall do that, and the

6 determination hinges on whether that

7 determination can be made of technical

8 feasibility.

9 And in this case we believe that

10 technically it is feasible. So you know, EISA

11 is very clear in what we have to do.

12 MR. SACHS: Then I would make the

13 argument -- this is Harvey again -- that it is

14 not technically feasible unless you express

15 all of this stuff in source energy because we

16 have so many disagreements about the

17 appropriate conversions of source to site and

18 because it varies so much among regions and at

19 different times of day.

20 So I would make the argument that

21 if that's the case that it may not be

22 technically feasible to do what you're

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1 claiming to have done.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I'd just

4 like to make the observation, understanding

5 the legal requirements and limitations, that

6 I don't think this is taking us where we would

7 reasonably like to go. Many of these

8 appliances have a large amount of use

9 associated with their active mode and a small

10 amount of energy use with their standby mode.

11 Yes, those measurements can be

12 combined, and it sounds like we're obliged to

13 think about it that way. However, the cost of

14 reducing the standby mode energy use, which is

15 small but could be made very inexpensively

16 smaller, is low. So you know, that's the

17 simple outcome PG&E would like to see.

18 And you know, that would come from

19 some prescriptive limitation on standby energy

20 use or some voluntary agreement, you know, to

21 subscribe to a limitation on standby energy

22 use.

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1 And this whole process just by

2 virtue of the way it's dictated and laid out

3 doesn't seem to get us to that possible

4 outcome.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis.

6 MR. LEWIS: Again, returning to

7 the foundational premise of why we're here

8 together today, it's not on the standard. 

9 It's on the test procedure. We can't set a

10 limit that's a standard limit on a test

11 procedure. So the issue here, we're following

12 the directive within the statute of what we

13 need to do in the time prescribed, that we

14 have to have everything, all appliances we

15 have to evaluate and be ready for anything

16 that comes out in June 2010, is it, that has

17 to include the off mode and the standby mode? 

18 And I think Harvey's

19 characterization is correct of what the intent

20 probably was, although I'm not speaking on

21 behalf of General Counsel.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that

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1 clarification.

2 MR. LEWIS: The issue here though

3 is --

4 MR. SACHS: General Counsel has

5 shown not to speak for themselves.

6 MR. LEWIS: No, they are doing

7 good work right now, and I am very supportive

8 of what they're doing right now. 

9 What I just want to remind us of

10 is we have a requirement. We're trying to do

11 it in a fashion that is fulfilling that

12 requirement, but we're having this discussion

13 to try to maintain some sanity and do it in

14 the most effective way that we can do it and

15 considering all the facts.

16 So your input is great. I mean,

17 there are a lot of issues that I haven't

18 thought of that you're raising today, and this

19 is really wonderful, except, you know, our

20 limitations and what we can do. We can't say

21 standard within the test procedure. We have

22 to have this done by a certain time. 

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1 There are all kinds of issues that

2 are kind of handcuffing us on what our

3 flexibilities are, but this input is wonderful

4 for us to consider and play those

5 flexibilities to the maximum to have a good

6 outcome.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey.

8 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Ron. I

9 very much appreciate that. This is again

10 Harvey.

11 But the corollary or inverse of

12 what you've just said would seem to be that we

13 can't set a standard if the test procedure

14 does not leave us the right set of metrics to

15 set a standard on. And in that context, if

16 the goal of the EISA -- and I would remind us

17 all unnecessarily, I hope, that the goal of

18 the efficiency standards is to save energy --

19 then if we do not set a test procedure that

20 allows us to set a standard on the things that

21 matter, we have not done our job. We have

22 done something which is perhaps technically

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1 feasible, although I'd challenge that, and

2 largely irrelevant.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: So thanks for the

5 reminder, Ron, keeping us on track here, but

6 I agree with Harvey. You know, we need the

7 test procedure to support the ultimate

8 standard.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Ron.

10 MR. LEWIS: Doing an amendment to

11 only meet our requirement on this is very

12 awkward when it's separate from the standard,

13 and most of the time we're doing a test

14 procedure concurrently or in combination with

15 a new standard. So the metrics are correlated

16 and trying to make it so you can prove

17 compliance with a new standard.

18 And all of these suggestions and

19 recommendations and concerns are all going to

20 help us tremendously as we do both in the

21 future. It's a matter of what can we do right

22 now to comply with our requirement without

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1 great harm in the meantime when we're trying

2 to meet our obligation here.

3 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey.

5 MR. SACHS: I want to bring us

6 down to some semblance of what the world is

7 about right now. I'm sitting here with

8 another gas appliance that has a standby that

9 approaches ten watts, which means it's on the

10 order of 100 kilowatt hours per year to do

11 nothing. It is using a substantial fraction

12 of the electrical energy to do nothing -- I'm

13 sorry. To keep the battery charged on the

14 transformer or the thermostat -- it's using a

15 substantial fraction of the entire electrical

16 energy for the fan plus that, just to keep the

17 thermostat alive and the control board awake.

18 This is nuts, and if we can't have

19 our standards addressing this kind of energy

20 waste that amounts to power plant outputs per

21 year when summed over the nation, then we as

22 a group are not doing anything.

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1 That's where the opportunity is,

2 and I believe it's the obligation of DOE as

3 the standards maker to first pay attention to

4 the obligation that begins the act, which is

5 that these standards are about saving energy. 

6 And I'm challenging you to help us find the

7 route that enables us to do it instead of

8 thinking continuously about the literal

9 language which always has exceptions as

10 otherwise determined or as other factors are

11 considered by the Secretary to be important.

12 So if I'm impatient, I'm sorry. 

13 The job now is to save energy, and to do that

14 in ways which minimize the testing burden. 

15 Give us understandable metrics. All of these

16 things are important, and it sure is a whole

17 lot easier to put a watt hour meter across a

18 dryer while it's asleep than it is to do all

19 of this pseudo annual cycle stuff that we're

20 proposing to do.

21 I will take my heart off my sleeve

22 and put it back in its place.

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1 (Laughter.)

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

3 Yes, please.

4 MS. REICH: I'd like to comment.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Judith, yes.

6 MS. REICH: This is Judith Reich.

7 You know, certainly recognizing

8 the full extent of this discussion, I can

9 perhaps allay the specific concerns with this

10 test procedure in which, although we are

11 proposing these new integrated metrics, over

12 the course of the test methodology to come up

13 with those metrics, we are also measuring

14 exactly what it is that I think you're

15 discussing, which is the specific watts that

16 are associated with each standby mode.

17 So in this particular case, the

18 test procedure as it is proposed could

19 anticipate either possibility in the standards

20 rulemaking.

21 MR. SACHS: Thank you very much,

22 Judith.

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1 Now, again, this is Harvey. We're

2 each the creatures of our own experience, but

3 we went through a situation with central air

4 conditioners in which the old ARI was able to

5 argue that although it had to calculate the

6 energy use and the capacity at 95 degrees

7 Fahrenheit, it did not literally have to

8 compute the EER at 95, and so my question to

9 you is once we have this procedure in place,

10 which I admit I have not read, will the

11 department require the reporting of these

12 energy consumption metrics in the non-active

13 cycle?

14 MS. REICH: Well, again, that's an

15 issue that will be determined in the standards

16 rulemaking, not in the test procedure

17 rulemaking. This is simply to set down the

18 methodology that will be used.

19 MR. SACHS: I understand that, but

20 I am again concerned that it can be set up in

21 a way that includes the objective or

22 facilitates the objective, and perhaps this

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1 question is better addressed to Ron than to

2 you, but I'm increasingly concerned that at

3 the end of this standards process, I'm going

4 to have something awake that is not

5 encouraging the industry to do what is cost

6 effective to reduce the annual energy use of

7 these products.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments

9 before we move on?

10 MR. SACHS: I was hoping to hear a

11 response from Ron on that. Maybe I wasn't

12 hoping to.

13 MR. LEWIS: I heard a speech. I

14 didn't hear a question, and I didn't mean that

15 in a -- I really didn't hear a question.

16 MR. SACHS: The question was

17 whether this rulemaking on the test procedure

18 is going to leave us in position where you

19 anticipate that we will require disclosure of

20 these non-active use energy consumption

21 metrics.

22 MR. LEWIS: This is Ron.

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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Lewis.

2 MR. LEWIS: Our requirement right

3 now to now consider, which we have done in the

4 past, the standby and off modes in the test

5 procedure, and this is an amendment to the

6 existing test procedure, trying to give us the

7 capability when we set the new standards to be

8 able to support that standard and have that

9 option open. I think that the answer that you

10 just heard a minute ago was we would have that

11 option.

12 I can't prejudge. That is

13 completely inappropriate and not even legal to

14 prejudge what we're going to do in a future

15 standard before we've even started that

16 standard, but I think that the optimism there

17 is trying to make sure we've got the

18 capability to support it, exactly as I think

19 you just asked, to have that capability to

20 support that, and that should be our mission

21 trying to save energy.

22 So I think we're going in the

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1 right direction. I don't think we're in

2 disagreement here. It's just a matter of the

3 timing where this is an amendment to a test

4 procedure to comply with a statutory

5 requirement versus the standard which is yet

6 to come that this would be supporting to show

7 compliance.

8 So I think there's a time

9 synchronization issue here, but I think that

10 the actual substance of the issue, I don't

11 think we're in any disagreement. It's a

12 matter of where it fits in .

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: That's great.

15 (Laughter.)

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that for the

17 record? Yes, okay.

18 MR. SACHS: Gary expressed it

19 better than I could.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

21 MS. REICH: All right. Well, I

22 think the next two topics will be much more

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1 straightforward. Both of these are

2 corrections to existing test procedures for

3 issues that were identified in the course of

4 reviewing each one of them.

5 For the clothes dryer DOE test

6 procedure there's a reference made in the

7 section in which the energy factor is

8 calculated, and it points improperly to

9 instructions that define the perimeters for

10 the test cloth instead of as it should be

11 pointing to the sections that instruct the

12 manufacturer on the appropriate selection of

13 test loads.

14 So DOE is proposing to correct

15 those section numbers to point to the right

16 place.

17 The second correction that is

18 proposed to be incorporated is the reference

19 to the external standard, the ASHRAE standard,

20 method of testing for rating room air

21 conditioner, and in the test procedure

22 currently as it stands, I'm sure not

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1 intentionally, but rather amusingly, it's

2 called the American Society of Heating,

3 Refrigerating and Air Conditioning in

4 Engineers.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MS. REICH: The correction is to

7 properly identify ASHRAE as the American

8 Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air

9 Conditioning Engineers.

10 PARTICIPANT: Objection.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: We need to have

13 that capability in our engineers.

14 MS. REICH: All right. The final

15 topic that I'm going to cover is to discuss

16 the various EPCA requirements that DOE

17 reviewed in specifying these proposed

18 amendments. The first is to consider the test

19 burden on the manufacturer, and specifically

20 the relevant sections of EPCA state that the

21 test procedures prescribed or amended have to

22 measure efficiency or energy use or estimated

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1 annual operating cost during a representative

2 average use cycle or period of use, and shall

3 not be unduly burdensome. 

4 So you know, there are two

5 different requirements. There is the

6 methodology representative, and what is the

7 associated test burden.

8 Because DOE is proposing to

9 incorporate clauses from a widely accepted

10 international standard, the IEC 62301, it is

11 felt that because of the wide understanding,

12 recognition, use of that standard that

13 incorporating sections from that would be

14 appropriate.

15 In addition, DOE performed some

16 tests and analysis to determine that the

17 specific clauses and specificity that was

18 added to those clauses would produce

19 representative measurements, namely, the

20 situation where you have either a stable or

21 unstable condition or the fact that you're

22 trying to calculate over an average use cycle.

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1 Because the test methods and

2 equipment aren't substantially different from

3 what's already in the DOE test procedure, and

4 this I think we're really referring to the

5 ambient room conditions, that they are similar

6 to if not already in the existing temperature

7 requirements that are required for the

8 efficiency testing; that that would not pose

9 an undue burden, for example, by requiring

10 significant investments in facility or

11 equipment.

12 So that was the first EPCA

13 requirement. The second one, which we've

14 already discussed briefly, was that DOE has to

15 consider in addition to IEC 62301 this

16 alternative or second standard, 62087, for

17 audio and video equipment, and you know, quite

18 apparently clothes dryers and room air

19 conditioners don't fall under that purview.

20 So DOE determined that this did

21 not need to be considered for amending the

22 test procedures.

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1 And here's where we got into the

2 discussion of the requirement to integrate

3 standby and off mode energy consumption. 

4 Again, you know, it's the EISA requirement

5 that it must be done unless it's technically

6 infeasible, and so DOE is proposing these

7 additional methods for clothes dryers and room

8 air conditioners that are integrated metrics,

9 while not affecting the existing metrics that

10 are already defined.

11 I guess the only point maybe to

12 emphasize on this slide is the last bullet

13 point where because the existing metrics are

14 left in place, that the test procedure could

15 continue to be used in its existing form for

16 those metrics for determining compliance with

17 the standards that are currently in place and

18 until the effective date of any new or amended

19 standards for clothes dryers and room air

20 conditioners, at which point DOE would provide

21 for the amendments of integrated measures to

22 become effective.

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1 That brings us back to Steve

2 unless there are additional comments on that.

3 MS. DETRICK: Paige Detrick, DSH.

4 Just kind of a nitty little thing

5 on the tables versus the calculation of the

6 energy efficiency. We spent a lot of time at

7 the tables talking about the operating hours

8 per year, and then we come back to a metric

9 that goes to operating hours or standby hours

10 per cycle. I'd like before we would finalize

11 those methods that we make sure we kind of

12 agree to how that all calculates out.

13 It should be straightforward

14 arithmetic, but I'd like to see how that all

15 calculates out and make sure that we have

16 something that makes some sense from that

17 rather than a table and an assumption that we

18 go back to ours and we all do the mathematics

19 differently and we come up with something that

20 doesn't match.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you think it

22 hasn't been explained fully int his document,

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1 in these slides?

2 MS. DETRICK: I can imagine and do

3 the arithmetic and I come up with a certain

4 number of standby and off cycle hours per

5 operating cycle based on all of the tables

6 that talk about hours, but there is no

7 calculation of that.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: There's no explicit

9 A times B times C.

10 MS. DETRICK: Right. I have to go

11 to per year and then go to what I know, this

12 other standard that talks about cycles per

13 year and do some arithmetic back and forth to

14 get to standby hours per cycle. It would be,

15 I think, clearer if we just set it that we

16 expect X number of standby hours per cycle or

17 we expect X amount of power per whatever.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: To be explicit that

19 way, yes.

20 Ron Lewis.

21 MR. LEWIS: Is that in the

22 document at all, the Federal Register notice? 

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1 Is there anything that's there other than

2 presentation?

3 MS. REICH: Well, I believe that

4 it's my understanding that those calculations

5 are actually performed in a different section

6 of 10 CFR 430, that those are performed as

7 part of the standards rather than in the test

8 procedure itself.

9 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Detlef, can you get

11 to the microphone, please?

12 MR. WESTPHALEN: Sure. Detlef

13 Westphalen.

14 Just in clarification, I think

15 you're correct that nowhere in the document

16 are the numbers specifically spelled out in

17 hours per cycle. They're presented in hours

18 per year and calculated in hours per year, and

19 then, you know, the energy is then divided by

20 the number of cycles per year in order to get

21 energy per cycle, just to clarify.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank

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1 you.

2 MR. LEWIS: So does that answer

3 your need or do you think there's something

4 that we need to supplement for clarity?

5 MS. DETRICK: Paige Detrick again.

6 I think it can work either way. 

7 I'd like clarity so that there's no

8 disagreement on the calculations, but it

9 should be straightforward math so that it can

10 work either way.

11 MR. LEWIS: But perhaps we can

12 have a one-page or something, just explanation

13 out of augmentation to be put on our Website

14 that shows that?

15 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, this is

16 Detlef again.

17 I would just add that we may have

18 to be careful about significant figures, and

19 you know, this was something that was brought

20 up at another meeting about metric versus

21 English and so on. When we get into

22 significant figures, then you know, how many

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1 do we show? And if we don't show enough, then

2 you might get a different number.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Brice.

4 MR. BOWLEY: Talking about

5 calculations as well, one calculation that

6 seemed to be left out from the new standard

7 was the new annual operating cost where that's

8 multiplied by the total kilowatt hours times

9 the energy use.

10 MS. REICH: Right. Again, that's

11 not part of the test procedure itself.

12 MR. BOWLEY: Well, the old annual

13 operating hours is included in the test

14 procedure.

15 MS. REICH: I believe that was in

16 a different section of 10 CFR 430.

17 MS. BRUNK: This is Debra Brunk,

18 AHAM.

19 It's at the end of the Federal

20 Register document on this NOPR. There's a

21 430.23 for room air conditioners, and that is

22 the area that does not incorporate this

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1 estimated annual cost. We're using new

2 calculations. They're for the olds, but it

3 doesn't incorporated what would be there for

4 the new. But that section is 430.23.

5 We will address that in our

6 written comments in specific detail.

7 MR. LEWIS: Good catch. Thank

8 you.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. WITKOWSKI: As far as how to

11 submit comments, it's all laid out here both

12 by E-mail and mail: by written comments, by

13 courier. If you have any questions, feel free

14 to either contact Brenda Edwards or contact

15 me, and I'll be happy to help you if there's

16 any issues on submission.

17 And that's it. On behalf of DOE,

18 that's it. I want to thank you very much and

19 I wish you all a very happy and safe holidays.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

21 Safe travels to all of you. I'm

22 going to hand out an evaluation form. Please

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1 take 30 seconds to fill it out. The

2 department reads them carefully.

3 (Whereupon, at 12:26 p.m., the

4 public meeting in the above-entitled matter

5 was concluded.)

6

7

8

9

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12

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