P4

. Ar

En MINATIONS OF ALAIN C. ENTHOVEN AND ROBERT N.

..iiTHONY TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARIES OF DEFENSE,

GOVERNMEN1

Storage KSU LIBRARIES 

AND H.R. 8484

HEARING

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

-UNITED STATES SENATE

EIGHTY-NINTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

NOMINATION OF ALAIN C. ENTHOVEN TO BE ASSISTANT

SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ( SYSTEMS ANALYSIS)

NOMINATION OF ROBERT N. ANTHONY TO BE ASSISTANT

SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (COMPTROLLER)

H.R. 8484

AUTHORIZING TRANSPORTATION AT GOVERNMENT EXPENSE

OF PRIVATELY OWNED MOTOR VEHICLES OF MEMBERS OF

THE ARMED FORCES

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ru

JULY 15, 1965

Printed for the use of the Committee on

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

M-295 WASHINGTON: 1965
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

RICHARD B.

JOHN STENNIS, Mississippi

HARRY FLOOD BYRD, Virginia

STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri

HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington

SAM J. ERVIN, JR., North Carolina

HOWARD W. CANNON, Nevada

ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia

STEPHEN M. YOUNG, Ohio

DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii

THOMAS J. McINTYRE, New Hampshire

DANIEL B. BREWSTER, Maryland

II

Je

RUSSELL, Georgia, Chairman

LEVE RETT SALTONSTALL, Massachusetts

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine

STROM THURMOND, South Carolina

JACK MILLER, Iowa

JOHN G. TOWER, Texas

WILLIAM H DARDEN, Chief of Staff

CHARLES B. KIRBOW, Chief Clerk

1
CONTENTS

Statements of—

Anthony, Dr. Robert N., nominee for Assistant Secretary of Defense Page

(Comptroller) 9

Enthoven, Dr. Alain C., nominee for Assistant Secretary of Defense

(Systems Analysis) 3

H. R. 8484 11 Berg, Brig. Gen. William W., Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense (Manpower) 16 Knox, David E., Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics,

Department of the Army 13 Low, Col. Stanley D., Director, Facilities and Services Division, Supply Department, Headquarters, Marine Corps 16

III
\

.r
011 MIN

37 

A;JG

1965

NOMINATION OF DR. ALAI NTHOW TO BE AN

ASSISTANT SECRETA /tit ENSE

NOMINATION OF DR. ROBERT N. ANTHONY TO BE AN

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

THURSDAY, JULY 15, 1965

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a.m., in room 212,

Old Senate Office Building, Senator John Stennis presiding.

Present: Senators Stennis, Symington, Jackson, Cannon, Young

of Ohio, Inouye, Saltonstall, Smith, and Tower.

Also present: William H. Darden, chief of staff; T. Edward

Braswell and Gordon A. Nease, professional staff members; and H.

S. Atkinson, assistant chief clerk.

Senator STENNIS. The committee will please come to order.

Many members of the committee have other conflicting responsibilities and the Chair hopes that our meeting may be brief as is

consistent with giving the business of the day proper consideration.

Dr. Alain C. Enthoven, of Virginia, has been nominated to be an

Assistant Secretary of Defense, vice Dr. Eugene Fubini. Dr.

Enthoven has been in the Department of Defense since 1961. The

Department has announced that if confirmed he will occupy a new

office, to be known as Assistant Secretary of Defense (Systems

Analysis).

Dr. Robert N. Anthony, of Massachusetts, has been nominated to

be an Assistant Secretary of Defense, vice Charles J. Hitch, resigned.

The third item, H.R. 8484, is a bill urgently desired by the Department of Defense to give relief to situations such as that experienced

by members of the 1st Marine Brigade that was deployed from

Hawaii to Vietnam. Current law provides authority for the return

of the household goods of the members to the United States, but

there is no authority for the shipment of privately owned motor

vehicles to the United States.

NOMINATION OF DR. ALAIN C. ENTHOVEN TO BE AN

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

Senator STENNIS. Senator Jackson, Dr. Enthoven is originally from

your great State. Can we call on you to present the doctor to this

committee?

Senator JACKSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sure that Dr.

Enthoven is living in Virginia by reason of his official position. He

1
2 NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8 484

is a native of Seattle, Wash., and has had a distinguished career, as

members of the committee can note from his biography. He is 35

years of age and, in that short period of time, has achieved high

scholastic honors. He has been a teacher, has worked for the Rand

Corp., doing very important studies especially for the Air Force, and

he has been in the Department of Defense since 1961, in a very

important and key position.

I am confident, Mr. Chairman, that Dr. Enthoven will perform

his new assignment as Assistant Secretary for Systems Analysis with

great credit to this new office, to the Department of Defense, and to

the country.

Senator STENNIS. Thank you, Senator.

Dr. Enthoven, we are pleased to have you here, and we congratulate you on your appointment. If you will give us a brief oral summary of your background and include a statement of whether you

own securities in companies doing business with the Department of

Defense, committee members may then propound such questions as

they may have.

I hope your statement will describe the duties of this office that

you are to hold. It is new to us.

(The nomination reference and biographical sketch of Dr. Enthoven

follow:)

NOMINATION REFERENCE AND REPORT

IN EXECUTIVE SESSION,

SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES,

July 7, 1965.

Ordered, That the following nomination be referred to the Committee on Armed

Services:

Main C. Enthoven, of Virginia, to be an Assistant Secretary of Defense vice

Eugene G. Fubini, resigned.

ALAIN C. ENTHOVEN

Alain C. Enthoven was born in Seattle, Wash., in 1930. In 1952 he received a

B.A. degree from Stanford University where he was a Phi Beta Kappa. He was

awarded a Rhodes Scholarship and continued his studies at Oxford University,

receiving a B. Phil. degree in 1954. During the period 1954-56, he served as instructor in economics at Massachusetts Institute of Technology and received a

Ph. D. degree in economics. He also taught at the University of Washington as

visiting associate professor of economics.

In 1955, Dr. Enthoven became a consultant to the Rand Corp., and in 1956

he joined the staff as a full-time member. At Rand, he performed research for the

Air Force in the area of strategic air operations and strategy, selection, basing, and

operation of strategic weapon systems, and the economics of defense. He has

also served as a consultant to the Brookings Institution Washington, D.C.

Dr. Enthoven joined the Department of Defense in May 1960 in the Office of

the Director of Defense Research and Engineering. He was appointed Deputy

Comptroller for Systems Analysis (programing) on May 23, 1961, and Deputy

Assistant Secretary of Defense (systems analysis), Office of the Assistant Secretary

of Defense (Comptroller), on October 18, 1962.

Dr. Enthoven is a member of the American Economic Association and the Econometric Society. He has contributed articles to Air Force, the Naval Review,

the Military Review, the Economic Journal, Econometrica, and the American

Economic Review., and was a contributor to the Economics of Defense in the

Nuclear Age (by C. J. Hitch and R. N. McKean).

Dr. Enthoven received the President's Award for Distinguished Federal

Civilian Service on June 12, 1963.

At present, Dr. Enthoven, his wife, Rosemary, and their three children reside

at 3203 Alabama Avenue, Alexandria, Va.
NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484 3

STATEMENT OF DR. ALAIN C. ENTHOVEN, NOMINEE, TO BE

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (SYSTEMS ANALYSIS)

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Thank you, Senator.

As Senator Jackson said, I was born in Seattle. I still feel very

close to Seattle, even though I am living at the other end of the

country.

I went to college at Stanford University in California, and then I

spent 2 years in England at Oxford. I got a doctorate in economics

at MIT.

After that, I went to the Rand Corp. where I spent approximately

4 years doing studies for and with the Al. Force on strategic air power;

namely, on the problems of the Strategic Air Command, on the choice

of weapons systems, on the concepts of operations.

During that time, I had the privilege of being able to form good

friendships and close associations with a number of officers in the Air

Staff, mainly on the planning side, who have remained good friends

and colleagues to this day.

Then I came to the Defense Department, and first joined the Office

of the Director of Research and Engineering, and spent about 9

months there. Then in 1961, when Mr. Hitch was appointed Comptroller, he asked me to come into the Comptroller's Office, and help

to form this new organization that would do programing and systems

analysis.

Since then, I have been working in gradually ascending steps now

as the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Systems Analysis—working on

the program of analytical studies, analyzing the cost and effectiveness

of the various programs that the Secretary and Chiefs want to consider.

As for the functions of the new office, the main functions would be

along these lines, Senator:

First, we will be gathering information for the Secretary of Defense

and the other top officials on the cost and effectiveness of major

programs, displaying the information to them in such a way that

the relationship of the cost of the total program to its effectiveness,

to its performance of our national security, will be brought out clearly.

Another major function will be to raise questions and to assist the

Secretary of Defense by defining issues, and making suggestions to

him on the kinds of questions that he would want to raise during his

examination of a program.

Another function will be to monitor and review and summarize

for the Secretary studies that are being done throughout the Department.

And then, finally, to initiate studies on the economic impact of the

defense program, which is a very complex and difficult field in which

we hope to be able to make some progress.

Senator STENNIS. Mr. Darden, you and Dr. Enthoven have gone

over the matter of his personal holdings.

Mr. DARDEN. Yes, sir; he has filed a statement indicating he has

no securities in companies doing business with the Department of

Defense, Mr. Chairman.

Senator STENNIS. Do you know of anything, Doctor, that would

interfere with the discharge of your duties, because of any business

connections or holdings that you have?
•

4 NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484

Dr. ENTHOVEN. No, sir. I felt when I came into the Pentagon

several years ago that it would be necessary at that time to sever all

entanglements.

Senator STENNIS. You have no connections or partnerships or

anything like that with companies doing business with the Department?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. NO, sir; none at all.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, I had the privilege of meeting Dr. Enthoven in my office.

You mean, by alternatives, alternative plans that may be suggested

or recommended to the Secretary of Defense as to their efficiency, as

to their cost, and so on, in order to get the one that would be most

efficient to carry out the objectives that we seek?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I know that the Secretary of Defense is

very keen to have alternatives.

You also said that it is your responsibility to raise questions with

relation to the plans submitted, for him to ask and go into.

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Now, the studies throughout the Department—how much control are you going to have over those studies?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Well, sir, the Secretary of Defense himself controls

them in the sense that the directions and orders for the studies are

given by him.

Senator SALTONSTALL. But they are not submitted by the Secretary

of the Army, for instance?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Generally this is the way we have worked, sir.

Let's say, if a study on Army force requirements is desired by the

Secretary of Defense, someone in my Office would make a draft of the

suggested plan, the issues that ought to be addressed. Then he

would go and meet with the people in the Army who would be asked

to do the study, and discuss it with them, to make sure that the

issues made sense to them, and get their suggestions, so that they

would have the capability to carry out the study, and so that it

would be a productive useful effort. After doing that, he would

send the draft up to Mr. Hitch who would, if he approved it, recommend that the Secretary of Defense sign the memorandum. Then

Mr. McNamara reads it, decides whether he thinks those are the

issues or not. If he does, he would sign the memorandum and it

would be sent to the Army. Then a member of my staff would work

with the Army study group, making suggestions about study approaches, and so forth.

We have found that it is very important just to have one boss, and,

if the Secretary of the Army has been charged with the study, he has

delegated it to some officer, then that officer is in charge of the study.

And my man at that point is in strictly an advisory capacity.

However, we have found over the last few years we have been able

to develop very good friendly working relations on these problems,

and it generally works out very well.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Recently we have been reading a lot about

this study Camelot, by the Army. Apparently when it got up to the

Secretary of Defense he dropped it. Is it your responsibility to see

that the Secretary of Defense knows about it before it gets started?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Well, sir, that particular kind of study, which

has not to do with requirements for money and men and material,
NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484 5

would be handled through the Office of the Director of Research and

Engineering. That particular study is not the sort that I would get

into.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Then, if it is going to be studied by another

department, why shouldn't you be in on it, if you are going to have

responsibility for seeing that all these studies get to the Secretary of

Defense?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Well, if the Secretary asked me to, I would, sir.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Why shouldn't you go a little further than

that? It seems to me what you are now saying contradicts what

you said before. I don't want to go into it too much.

Dr. ENTHOVEN. There is no good reason why I should not be

involved in such a study. But in fact, the way my job has evolved,

it has concentrated mostly on studies that lead to requirements for

money and manpower.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I just make the comment it would seem

to me, if we were establishing this office, it ought to be all inclusive,

and not partly inclusive.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator STENNIS. Thank you, Senator.

May I ask one question now?

In your sketch, Doctor, you have been there since 1960.

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. You were Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) and that was subdivided into Systems Analysis.

This is an updating and also an elevation because of the importance

of this particular work, is it not?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. And it seems to me that underscores what the

Senator from Massachusetts has said.

Senator Symington.

Senator SYMINGTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Doctor, I can't imagine anybody being better equipped to do this

job than yourself. For some reason some of those who are the most

anxious to see efficiency in the Pentagon are worried about the number

of studies and reviews that are made over there, and have nicknames

and so forth about the people who do them. It has been my experience that invariably the most successful and most efficient companies

are the companies that constantly continue to run studies on the structure and functioning of their particular corporation or bank.

I am glad you are taking this job, and I wish you well on it.

I would like to associate myself with the remarks of the Senator from

Washington about what you have done in the past.

Would a study of necessary manpower in South Vietnam be the

type and character of study that you would be involved in?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Generally it has not been in the past, Senator.

That has been in the Office of the Assistant Secretary for Manpower.

Occasionally we have gotten involved in that kind of question.

Senator SYMINGTON. Would the study of logistics support be the

type and character by that I mean planes, helicopters, guns, trucks,

et cetera—would that be the type and character of study that you

might be involved in?

51-29 5 65 2
NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484

Dr. ENTHOVEN. I would be involved in it; yes, sir. I would be

working in that case with the Assistant Secretary for Installations and

Logistics, who would be concerned with the logistics support.

Senator SYMINGTON. You would get into various elements of it?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir.

Senator SYMINGTON. I believe the British, based on their Malaya

experience, said that, in order to overcome guerrilla opposition, you

needed 15 to 1 or 20 to 1. Do you happen to remember the figure?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Was it that high? I don't really recall, sir. I

thought—the number I had in my mind was more like 10 to 1. But

I am not really sure.

Senator SYMINGTON. Well, let's take the low figure. If this operation is to continue, and based on the premise that they knew what

they were talking about, how many troops do we need in South

Vietnam today?

If it is difficult for you to punthat out of your head at this point, I

would appreciate your furnishing it to the committee, so we can get

a rough idea.

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Senator, I wish I knew the answer. But better

men than I are struggling with that problem right now.

Senator SYMINGTON. The premise is that you are going to be the

boss of studies, and this would be a pretty important study. So if

you would supply the committee with any information along those

lines, on the basis of if, as, and when—Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate receiving that information.

Senator STENNIS. Thank you, Senator.

Senator Smith?

Senator SMITH. I haven't any questions.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Jackson?

Senator JACKSON. Dr. Enthoven, in short, I take it your job is, in

effect, to be one of the chief interrogators for the Secretary of Defense

in reviewing future systems requirements. Would that be a reasonably good definition?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes.

Senator JACKSON. In other words, you do not pass on whether a

given weapons system, for instance, should be approved or disapproved. That is a decision for the Secretary.

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir.

Senator JACKSON. But your job is to endeavor to see to it that all

of the known and available facts are laid on the table so that he will

have available to him the various choices that he can pursue.

Dr. ENTHOVEN. That is right.

Senator JACKSON. Thank you.

Senator STENNIS. Thank you, Senator.

Senator Cannon?

Senator CANNON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Doctor, with respect to this job, the new title, is this just an upgrading of what you were doing before, except that you report directly to the Secretary of Defense rather than to Mr. Hitch, or the

Comptroller?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir.

Senator CANNON. SO it is just giving a little more status to the

job, either that or giving the Secretary of Defense more of a direct

handle on it, is that correct?
NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484 7

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir. I think the latter is the important thing.

He feels that it should be directly reporting to him.

Senator CANNON. Whereas in the past you have consistently reported only to Mr. Hitch.

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir.

Well, in fact, if it7,hasIbeen a problem in my area, I would go up

with Mr. Hitch. My chain of command has definitely been through

Mr. Hitch.

Senator CANNON. Now, you have been in this systems analysis

business for some time, both at the Department of Defense level and

the Rand Corp. I am sure you are aware of the fact that there has

been quite a controversy between the Secretary and the Members of

Congress, and a divided opinion as to the need for the manned bomber.

The Congress has not agreed with the Secretary, nor have the members

of this committee. I wonder if you happened to work on the study,

either for the Rand Corp. or for the Department of Defense, on which

the Secretary bases his judgment in that respect.

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir; I have, both at the Rand Corp. and the

Defense Department, worked on studies on bombers.

Senator CANNON. And you agree with the Secretary that there is

no need for a manned bomber in the future today?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. I don't think that is the Secretary's view, sir.

I think the Secretary has tried to make it clear that he believes that

for the foreseeable future we ought to have in our forces a mix of

manned bombers and missiles. My understanding of his approach

has been that the decisions he has made are limited to the specific

proposals that have been made before him at that time and place,

and are not generally proscriptions against any manned bomber

system.

Senator CANNON. Well, let me ask you this. That is rather unfair,

to ask you to interpret what his view is. As a result of your study on

this subject, what is your view with respect to a follow-on bomber,

whether we do or do not need a follow-on manned bomber in this

country?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Well, sir, of course I want to emphasize I am not

not the one who will be making the decision.

Senator CANNON. I understand that. I am asking what your

judgment is in view of the studies that you have already participated in.

Dr. ENTHOVEN. I think that there are some good useful purposes

that can be served by bombers. The problem will be for the Secretary

to judge whether in relation to their cost and the alternatives available

the particular bomber proposal put before him would be a good one

to buy. I certainly have no preconception or prejudice against the

idea of a follow-on manned bomber.

Senator CANNON. Thank you.

Senator STENNIS. Thank you, Senator.

Senator Young?

Senator YOUNG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I have no questions.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Inouye?

Senator INOUYE. Mr. Chairman, I have had the great pleasure of

meeting the doctor. I am deeply impressed with his background

and experience. I am also pleased to note here that he has received

the President's Award for Distinguished Federal Civilian Service.

I think this speaks very highly of his contribution.
8 NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484

Senator STENNIS. Thank you very much, Senator.

Are there any other questions?

Doctor, you have been with Mr. Hitch.

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir, for about 10 years now, sir.

Senator STENNIS. I commend you for a fine record of service. I am

glad to see you nominated for a position that is becoming more and

more important, and rightfully certainly deserves to be elevated—you

deserve it, and the post, too, I think.

I want to ask you a personal question now—not just in jest. You

said you are from Seattle.

Do you know my friend, Joshua Green, a man of considerable years,

retired?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. There is a building named after him in Seattle

that is something of a landmark. I have certainly heard of him.

Senator STENNIS. I was going to say anyone coming here with the

recommendation of Senator Jackson and Joshua Green would certainly

rate good with me.

We thank you very much. You are excused now, with the thanks

of the committee for coming in.

(The nomination of Dr. Enthoven to be an Assistant Secretary of

Defense was confirmed by the Senate on July 16, 1965.)

NOMINATION OF DR. ROBERT N. ANTHONY TO BE AN

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

Senator STENNIS. Members of the committee, this is Dr. Robert N.

Anthony, of Massachusetts. Dr. Anthony, we welcome you here and

extend congratulations to you on your nomination. Please be seated

at the end of the table and give us a short summary of your education

and experience.

You have conferred with Mr. Darden about your financial holdings,

and have submitted a statement.

Do you know of anything that would embarrass you in any way

because of your holdings in filling this post to which you have 'been

nominated?

(The nomination reference and biographical sketch of Dr. Anthony

follow:)

NOMINATION REFERENCE AND REPORT

IN EXECUTIVE SESSION,

SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES,

July 7, 1965.

Ordered, That the following nomination be referred to the Committee on

Armed Services:

Robert N. Anthony, of Massachusetts, to be an Assistant Secretary of Defense

vice Charles Johnston Hitch, resigned.

ROBERT N. ANTHONY

Robert N. Anthony was born in Orange, Mass., September 6, 1916. He

received the A.B. degree from Colby College in 1938, the master of business

administration degree from Harvard Business School in 1940, and the doctor of

commercial science degree from Harvard in 1952. He has been awarded honorary

A.M. and L.H.D. degrees from Colby College.

In 1940 Mr. Anthony joined the staff of the Harvard Business School. He

has been there since that time, except for the war years 1941-46, and the years

1957-58 when he was on leave of absence as a faculty member of IMEDE,
NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484 9

Lausanne, Switzerland. Currently he is Ross Graham Walker professor of

management controls, coordinator of the control area faculty, and director of the

school's research project on management control systems. In World War II,

he was a Supply Corps officer, USNR, attaining the rank of lieutenant commander. He was awarded a commendation for this work at the Naval Supply

Depot, Guam.

He has been a consultant on management control and other problems to industrial companies, public accounting firms, banks, and trade associations.

His consulting work with Government agencies extends back to 1948, and

includes work for the Atomic Energy Commission; the Bureau of Labor Statistics;

the Comptroller, Assistant Secretary (FM), and Secretary of the Air Force;

U.S. Naval Ordnance Test Station; Chief of Naval Materiel; Navy Assistant

Secretary (FM); Munitions Board, Research and Development Board, and

Comptroller of the Department of Defense.

He is a member of the American Accounting Association and the National

Association of Accountants, and an associate member, Financial Executive Institute, and was vice president of the American Accounting Association in 1958-59.

He is a trustee of Colby College and of the Logistics Management Institute.

He is an author, coauthor, or editor of 14 books, including "Management

Control Systems: Cases and Readings" (1965), "Management Accounting

Principles" (1965), "Essentials of Accounting" (a programed text) (1964), and

"Management Accounting: Text and Cases" (1964). The latter book, now in

its third edition, has been translated into Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, and

Turkish.

Mr. Anthony is married to the former Gretchen Lynch, of West Virginia.

The couple have a son, Robert, who is a freshman at Dartmouth College, and a

daughter, Victoria.

STATEMENT OF DR. ROBERT N. ANTHONY, NOMINEE, TO BE AN

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

Dr. ANTHONY. Sir, in addition to the statement of my securities,

which you have general counsel suggested that I tell you about certain other matters that I have and what I hope to do with them.

Senator STENNIS. All right. We can take that up now.

Dr. ANTHONY. I will be on leave of absence, if you approve, from

Harvard University. I have continuing consulting relationships with

Nestle Elementana S.A., with the Chemical Bank New York Trust

Co., with General Mills, Inc., and I am an editor of the Addison

Wesley Publishing Co. From all of those positions I would propose

to resign.

I am a trustee of the Logistics Management Institute, of the Lexington Savings Bank, and of the First Baptist Church in Lexington,

and from those positions I would propose to resign.

I am and have been for some years a trustee of Colby College,

which is my own college, and in which I have a very great interest.

I would like, if it is agreeable to the committee, to continue with

that position. The chairman of the board has asked me to do so,

and has assured me that the amount of work involved would be

minor. Colby College has no defense contracts. It doesAhave a

small Air Force ROTC unit.

Senator STENNIS. I should think it would be acceptable to the

committee. I think it would be acceptable for you to continue your

affiliation with your church, too.

Dr. ANTHONY. Yes, sir, I intend to continue affiliation with the

church, but as a trustee I do handle a very sizable sum of money,

and I thought it would be best not to handle that money in this

position.

Senator JACKSON. In fact, you may want to join more than one

church after you get into this job.
10 NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484

Senator STENNIS. Do you wish to say something further, Dr.

Anthony, about anything connected with your duties?

You are coming here for the first time.

Dr. ANTHONY. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. This is not a personal question. Just why were

you interested in coming into this position? I think that is relevant.

DR. ANTHONY. Well, sir, I am in the management control business.

I have been in it my whole career. I teach in it, I do consulting work

in it. And the particular job that Mr. Hitch has is just without

any question the most important such job in the world. Anybody

that gets asked to take that job, with my interests, would certainly

want to do so.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Saltonstall?

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, I have no questions. I just

make this observation. Since Mr. Anthony graduated from Colby

College in Maine, is a Massachusetts resident, and a graduate of the

Harvard Business School, I must think that he will be a good addition

to the Department of Defense.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Symington?

Senator SYMINGTON. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Jackson?

Senator JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, I had the privilege of meeting

Dr. Anthony last week, and I am very much impressed with his 'background and experience. I am confident he will do a fine job—even

if he just stays in one church.

Dr. ANTHONY. Thank you.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Cannon?

Senator CANNON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Anthony, and I know what his

answer is to this, but I think for the record it would be well to point

out that you are only on a 1 year's leave of absence from Harvard, is

that correct?

Dr. ANTHONY. I am, Senator, because that is the most that Harvard

will give at any moment of time. But I am assured by them that

they will extend that leave of absence if Mr. McNamara and the

President wish it to be.

Senator CANNON. And they have done that in other instances in

the past?

Dr. ANTHONY. Yes, sir.

Senator CANNON. Is it your intention now to stay here so long as

you are desired by the President?

Dr. ANTHONY. The first extension should cause no problem whatsoever—there is a problem beyond the first extension. If Mr. McNamara wants me to stay, and the President does, and Harvard says

"No," then I face a difficult problem. I am quite sure in that situation

that I would then be forced to resign from Harvard, as much as I

would dislike doing so.

Senator CANNON. But the present indications are that you would

be able to get successive extensions from Harvard, so long as your

services were desired?

Dr. ANTHONY. The only firm agreement I have with them right

now is one extension.

Senator JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, on this same point—and I

neglected to ask this of both nominees—I am pleased with the response
NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484 11

that Dr. Anthony has made in connection with the questions rai§ed

by Senator Cannon. I think it is well to recall that the Senate

passed unanimously a resolution in 1960 that the nominees in the

national security area be willing to stay as long as requested. The

Senate has been deeply concerned about the turnover in the Department of Defense and State and other areas involving national security.

I would like to ask, if I may, Dr. Enthoven, if his response would be

the same to the question put by Senator Cannon—namely, that he is

willing to stay as long as he is asked to stay in his job?

Dr. ENTHOVEN. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. Thank you, Senator.

Senator Young?

Senator YOUNG. I have no questions.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Inouye?

Senator INOUYE. Mr. Chairman, we are most fortunate to have

Dr. Anthony with us.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Smith?

Senator SMITH. I have no questions, thank you.

Senator STENNIS. Is there something else you wish to say, Doctor?

Dr. ANTHONY. No, sir.

Senator STENNIS. We thank you very much for coming.

(The nomination of Dr. Anthony to be an Assistant Secretary of

Defense was confirmed by the Senate on July 16, 1965.)

H.R. 8484

AUTHORIZING TRANSPORTATION AT GOVERNMENT EXPENSE OF PRIVATELY OWNED MOTOR VEHICLES OF

MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES

Senator STENNIS. Members of the committee, we have a bill, H.R.

8484, which will take only a few minutes to present, and then we will

go in executive session.

The purpose of it is to provide authority for the shipment of

privately owned automobiles of members of the Armed Forces. We

have with us Mr. David Knox, from the office of the Deputy Chief of

Staff of the Army for Logistics.

Suppose we have Mr. Darden make a very brief statement.

H.R. 8484 follows:

[H.R. 8484, 89th Cong., 1st Sess.]

AN ACT To amend section 2634 of title 10, United States Code, relating to the transportation of privately

owned motor vehicles of members of the armed forces on a change of permanent station

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of

America in Congress assembled, That chapter 157 of title 10, United States Code,

is amended as follows:

(1) By amending section 2634 to read as follows:

"§ 2634. Motor vehicles; for members on change of permanent station

"(a) When a member of an armed force is ordered to make a change of permanent station, one motor vehicle owned by him and for his personal use or the use

of his dependents may, unless a motor vehicle owned by him was transported in

advance of that change of permanent station under section 406(h) of title 37, be

transported, at the expense of the United States, to his new station or such other

place as the Secretary concerned may authorize—

"(1) on a vessel owned, leased, or chartered by the United States;

"(2) by privately owned American shipping services; or

"(3) by foreign-flag shipping services if shipping services described in

clauses (1) and (2) are not reasonably available. •
12 NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484

When the Secretary concerned, or his designee, determines that a replacement

for that motor vehicle is necessary for reasons beyond the control of the member

and is in the interest of the United States, and he approves the transportation in

advance, one additional motor vehicle of the member may be so transported.

"(b) In this section, 'change of permanent station' means the transfer or assignment of a member of the armed forces from one permanent station to another.

it includes the change from home or from the place from which ordered to active

duty to first station upon appointment, call to active duty, enlistment, or induction, and from last duty station to home or to the place from which ordered to

active duty upon separation from the service, placement upon the temporary

disability retired list, release from active duty, or retirement. It also includes an

authorized change in home yard or home port of a vessel."

(2) By striking out of the analysis:

"2634. Motor vehicles: for members on permanent change of station."

and inserting in place thereof:

"2634. Motor vehicles: for members on change of permanent station."

SEC. 2. Section 406(h) (2) of title 37, United States Code, is amended to read

as follows:

"(2) authorize the transportation of one motor vehicle owned by the

member and for his or his dependents' personal use to that location by means

of transportation authorized under section 2634 of title 10."

SEC. 3. This Act shall be effective May 1, 1965. Any member who—

(1) transported a motor vehicle at his personal expense after April 30,

1965, and before the enactment of this Act; and

(2) would have been entitled to the transportation of such motor vehicle at

Government expense under the provisions of this Act;

shall be reimbursed for the allowable transportation cost actually expended by

him. Appropriations available for permanent change of station travel shall be

available for the reimbursements authorized by this Act.

Passed the House of Representatives July 12, 1965.

Attest: RALPH R. ROBERTS,

Clerk.

Mr. DARDEN. Mr. Chairman, I think this bill originated as a

result of a problem that was confronting members of the 1st Marine

Brigade who were stationed in Hawaii, and who were transferred

from there to Vietnam. Existing law provides authority for the

shipment of their household effects back to the United States, but

not for their automobiles. This bill would provide authority for the

shipment of a privately owned automobile to a place approved by

the Secretary of the service concerned upon a permanent change of

station for a member of the uniformed services where his dependents

cannot accompany him.

The bill would be retroactive to May 1 of this year, in order to

provide relief for the members of the Marine Corps who were affected.

It does two relatively minor additional things. It provides authority

for the Secretary to authorize the shipment of a replacement automobile where the original automobile transported to the station was

lost or destroyed for reasons beyond the member's control, and it

also expands the authority to ship these automobiles on foreign-flag

ships. The current law is limited to vessels owned, leased or chartered

by the United States or to an American-flag ship.

There are a few instances involving transshipment of automobiles

overseas between stations that are not served by U.S.-flag ships.

One additional feature in the bill involves the definition of the term

"change of permanent station." This would in effect ratify current

practice that construes that term to mean from home to his initial

duty station for a member of the Armed Forces or from his place of

separation or retirement to the home of record that he selects.
NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484 13

The estimated cost of the bill is $80,000 a year that the Department

indicates can be absorbed within existing appropriations.

Senator STENNIS. That is the additional cost this bill itself would

create?

Mr. DARDEN. Yes sir.

Senator STENNIS. Well, I didn't know it was so broad. I thought

it was just to cover a special situation.

Mr. Knox, will you proceed. t M

You have a prepared statement, do yo

Mr. KNOX. Yes, I do, sir. ekk Senator STENNIS. DO you want to pi ha,t ip the recoittand summarize the substance of it? -I

Mr. KNOX. Yes, sir.

• 

1/45

STATEMENT OF DAVID E. KNOX, OFFIb l UTY CHIEF

OF STAFF FOR LOGISTICS, DEPARTM HE ARMY

Mr. KNOX. Actually, Mr. Darden's opening statement quite

adequately covers the basic purpose of the bill. So I will file the

statement for the record and be happy to answer any questions you

may have.

Senator STENNIS. Give us a word on the general law as it exists

now—what is the present law with reference to this subject?

Mr. KNOX. All right, sir.

The present law, which is title 10, United States Code, section 2634,

authorizes transportation of one privately owned vehicle of a member

of the Armed Forces on a change of permanent station only from

ports serving his old duty station to the port serving his new duty

station on vessels owned or operated by the United States or American

shipping services.

Senator STENNIS. You have instances, like the 1st Marine Brigade.

They went from Hawaii to Vietnam, and their dependents came back

to the U.S.A., the mainland, and you just want authority, then, to

cover the transportation of the automobile.

Mr. KNOX. That is right. We have authority for the dependent

movement, the household goods. But under present law we could

not move the vehicles back to the States, to the mainland, at Government expense.

Senator STENNIS. Is this limited to cases where the serviceman

goes on to a foreign post?

Mr. KNOX. Yes, we are only talking transocean transportation, sir.

Senator STENNIS. It won't enlarge or loosen up the general law,

except in this instance?

Mr. KNOX. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. No. 2, what about this change—the bottoms

you are going to haul in? Why do you want to do that?

Mr. KNOX. Well, we have had instances in the past, sir, related, to

base closings in overseas areas, where members move, for example,

from Morocco up to the European Continent. The move of the

dependents' household goods and vehicles were across the Gibraltar

Straits. There was no American-flag shipping.

Senator STENNIS. Well, does this proposal say when U.S. shipping,

or the ordinary channels are not available?

Mr. KNOX. That is provided in the bill.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Saltonstall?
NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484 14

Senator SALTONSTALL. The only question—if you have a copy of

of the House report, Mr. Knox, before you—I don't quite understand,

on page 7 of that report, the last paragraph. I quote:

When the Secretary or his designee determines that a replacement for that

motor vehicle is necessary for reasons beyond the control of the member—he

approves the transportation in advance, one additional vehicle of the member

may be so transported.

Just what does that mean?

Mr. KNOX. That is related specifically to replacement transportation, sir, it means that in' a condition where the member overseas

loses use of his motor vehicle through accident, fire, flood, or other

reason beyond his control, and it is determined as being in the interests

of the Government that he have a vehicle at that duty station, a vehicle

may be transported, then, at Government expense to the port serving

that area. -

Senator STENNIS. Segerhim another one—is that it?

Mr. KNOX. Yes.

Senator SALTONSTALL. If that automobile is damaged in transportation, then they furnish him a new car; is that right?

Mr. KNOX. They don't furnish him a new car, sir—only replacement transportation.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senaotr STENNIS. Senator Jackson?

Senator JACKSON. I take it the problem here is that the present

statute limits the return of the car to the new duty station. This is

the key, is it not?

Mr. KNOX. That is right.

Senator JACKSON. So the new duty station, of course, is somewhere

else, Vietnam, for example, and the dependents must go back to the

States. Or to give another example, if a large contingent of our

personnel in Europe should be moved to the Middle East, then the

families who wanted to ship their cars back to the States would need

this legislation. Isn't that another example?

Mr. KNOX. That is correct, sir.

Senator JACKSON. But that is the key to it?

Mr. KNOX. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Cannon?

Senator CANNON. No questions.

Senator STENNIS. Senator Inouye?

Senator INOUYE. Mr. Chairman, I am happy to see the committee

considering this measure, because, as you know, the 1st Marine

Brigade was in Kaneohe, Cahu, and I have received many letters

from the wives of servicemen. I would like to see the committee

consider this favorably.

Senator JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, might I just ask a question on

this point?

Has there been a definite decision that they will not be returning to

Hawaii for further assignment?

Senator INOUYE. It is a permanent change of station.

Senator JACKSON. For this brigade.

Senator INOUYE. That is correct—to Okinawa.

(The prepared statement of Mr. Knox follows:)

I am Mr. David E. Knox, Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics,

Department of the Army. The Department of the Army has been designated

as the representative of the Department of Defense for this legislation. I repre-
NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484 15

:sent the Department of the Army for that purpose. I have with me today

representatives of the other military departments for the purpose of answering

.any questions that you may have with particular reference to their service.

I have a brief prepared statement which I would like to present to the

'committee.

Under present law (10 U.S.C. 2634), the transportation of one privatelyowned vehicle of a member of the Armed Forces on a change of permanent station

is limited from the port serving his old station to the port serving his new duty

station on vessels owned, leased, or chartered by the United States, or by privately

owned American shipping services. The purpose of H.R. 8484 is to amend this

statute to permit the Secretary of the service concerned to authorize shipment

•of this vehicle to a port other than the port serving the service member's new

duty station when he receives a change of permanent station. This bill would

also provide authority for (1) use of foreign flag shipping services when vessels

owned, leased, or chartered by the United States or privately owned American

shipping services are not available, and (2) shipment of a replacement vehicle

when a member's privately owned vehicle is lost or destroyed for reasons beyond

his control. Additionally, subsection (b) of the bill would specifically include

the movement from home to first duty station and from last duty station to

home as a change of permanent station for the purpose of transporting a privately

.owned vehicle.

Section 2 of the bill is a technical amendment to permit use of the same means

•of transportation for movement of vehicles authorized under section 406(b) of

title 37, United States Code; that is, when movement of the vehicle is incident to

orders authorizing transportation of dependents from an area outside the United

States under unusual or emergency circumstances.

Under uniform travel regulations of the services, a member may be authorized

to move his dependents and household goods to places other than his new duty

station when he receives a change of permanent station. The prohibition in

present law for movement of his automobile to the port serving the area in which

his dependents will reside creates an inequity and often results in financial hardship

to the service member. As an example, a member serving in an oversea area

who receives change of station orders assigning him to a restricted oversea area

where he cannot take his dependents or automobile may return his dependents

and household goods to a location in the United States. However, he is presently

compelled to either dispose of his vehicle in the oversea area or pay the required

ocean transportation and port-handling charges for shipment to a port in the

United States.

The provision for use of foreign-flag shipping services when U.S. vessels or

privately owned American shipping services are not available is considered necessary to resolve difficulties in arranging shipments for military members transferred

between oversea duty stations. Many direct sea routes between foreign countries

are not used by U.S. vessels or privately owned American shipping services.

This presently results in either the disapproval of shipment of 1, privately owned

vehicle

'

or a requirement to ship the vehicle to an American port for transshipment

to the final destination. The costs involved in transshipment are greater than

those which would accrue if foreign shipping services could be used and subject

the member to extensive delay in receipt of his vehicle.

The provision for shipment of a replacement vehicle when a service member's

vehicle is lost or destroyed for reasons beyond his control is consistent with

legislation governing the transportation of privately owned vehicles of civilian

Government employees.

The Department of the Army on behalf of the Department of Defense favors

enactment of H.R. 8484 as necessary to correct inequities presently existing

in transportation entitlements of service members on a change of permanent

station.

It is estimated that the enactment of H.R. 8484 will result in additional annual

costs of $80,000, broken down as follows:

Department of Army $21,000

Department of Navy (including Marine Corps) 29,000

Department of Air Force 30,000

These estimated additional annual costs can be absorbed in funds budgted for

transportation of members of the Armed Forces in fiscal year 1966.

The Bureau of the Budget advises that there is no objection to the presentation

of this proposal for the consideration of the Congress.

I have appreciated this opportunity of appearing before the committee and shall

Ile happy to answer any questions you may have on this bill.
16 NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484

STATEMENT OF COL. STANLEY D. LOW, U.S. MARINE CORPS,

DIRECTOR, FACILITIES AND SERVICES DIVISION, SUPPLY DEPARTMENT, HEADQUARTERS MARINE CORPS

Colonel Low. I am Col. Stanley Low, Director, Facilities and

Services Division, Supply Department, Headquarters, Marine Corps.

The 1st Marine Brigade, when ordered to the Western Pacific area,

a restricted area, left on March 11, under temporary additional duty

orders. Their orders were changed to permanent change of station

orders on May 25. This is when the problem developed.

Senator JACKSON. That date is May 25. This bill is effective

May 1.

Can the Department assure us that we are not going to be caught

in some other situation where there has been assignment of troops

•on a permanent change of station basis?

Colonel Low. I don't know, sir.

Mr. KNOX. We cannot assure there has been—there may have

been single assignments of members. Certainly there have, since

May 1, who would come under this for entitlement to reimbursement.

But not a large group, such as the 1st Marine Brigade.

Senator JACKSON. Well, I am just wondering, Mr. Chairman.

Senator STENNIS. I assume there will be others.

Senator JACKSON. I think this is something we should receive some

assurances on.

Senator STENNIS. I assume there will be others, but they would

be as much entitled to it as these are.

Senator JACKSON. No; they would not, if the permanent change of

station occurred prior to May 1.

Senator STENNIS. You mean antedating this?

Senator JACKSON. We have provided retroactive relief here to

May 1.

Senator STENNIS. I was talking about in the future.

Suppose an individual stationed in Japan now is ordered to Vietnam. This bill would be continuing in its effect, and would apply

to him. would it not?

Mr. KNOX. Yes, sir.

Senator STENNIS. You are making it retroactive to take care of

this first group. Is there any other group that had a similar experience, and we would be called on to make it apply to them?

STATEMENT OF BRIG. GEN. WILLIAM W. BERG, DEPUTY ASSISTANT

SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (MANPOWER) OSD

General BERG. I am General Berg, from the Office of the Secretary

of Defense.

I can assure the committee that there were no unit moves which

were made under temporary duty orders and subsequently changed

which would be not covered by this bill. There may be some individuals, and in fact we knew there were some few individuals. But

no unit moves.

Senator STENNIS. Just a few individuals.

Are there any other questions?

Senator Young?
0

NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484 17

Senator YOUNG. It appears to me, Mr. Chairman, on the basis of

my present understanding of this bill, that I would be very much

opposed to it unless I heard arguments causing me to change my mind.

For example, at the present time the families of the Marines

stationed in Hawaii—the wives—after the husband goes, are left

with the automobile. And you want to pay the freight on that and

transport it to San Francisco, I assume.

Mr. KNOX. Yes, sir.

Senator YOUNG. In the first instance, I don't know the sale price

of automobiles in Hawaii, but I assume that they can sell a used car

there at a great deal higher value then they could sell one in Ohio or

Michigan. - And I do know that in California used cars command

very high prices compared to Michigan or Ohio. And would not this

bill enable the wife of a marine who was sent to Vietnam to have an

automobile transported, if she could not make a fine sale of it in

Hawaii—at Government expense to San Francisco, and then sell it

on the used car market in San Francisco at a much higher price than

it would command in Michigan or Ohio, or in the East, and then go

on, travel to her home in New Jersey, or wherever she goes, and then

buy another used car at a much cheaper price?

Mr. KNOX. It would enable the transportation, sir. Possibly this

could be done. But the provision of the bill is for transportation of

the vehicle for the member or his dependent's personal use. We

contemplate that they are going to use the vehicle when we transport it.

Senator YOUNG. Yes. But you cannot put any restriction on

the sale of the automobile a week after it lands in the United States.

Mr. KNOX. NO, Sir.

Senator YOUNG. Unless some safeguard is made—I will talk with

my colleague, the Senator from Hawaii—but I assume that automobiles bring a pretty good price out there.

Senator STENNIS. Mrs. Smith?

Senator SMITH. I think the question that I had in mind has been

cleared up.

For clarification purposes, this relief is for the transportation costs,

not of the purchase of an automobile?

Mr. KNOX. That is correct.

Senator SMITH. Thank you.

Senator INOUYE. Mr. Chairman, if I may respond to my colleague,

Senator Young—the order describing the permanent change of station

came about rather suddenly in Hawaii. Here the wives were left by

themselves. They were almost required to move back to the mainland. And I can tell you, from what little I know of the used car

market in Hawaii, with such little time to dispose of their cars, they

would have had to sell their vehicles at a great loss.

Senator JACKSON. Well, isn't there the further point, Mr. Chairman—here I want to say to Senator Young that the law at the present

time makes it possible to take their car back.

Mr. KNOX. That is right.

Senator JACKSON. On a permanent change of station. So this bill

merely makes the present law apply as it was contemplated to apply,

but due to this unique situation that developed with this Marine

brigade, it was necessary to pass this legislation. But that is the law

now.
18 NOMINATIONS AND H.R. 8484

I would think that if the cars sell for more, they:would want to sell:

them in Hawaii, and then buy a car back in Ohio. 411

Senator YOUNG. Of course they do sell them for more in California.

There would be no argument about that.

Senator JACKSON. Senator Inouye says they sell for less.

Senator YOUNG. Less in Hawaii; yes.

Senator STENNIS. Mr. Knox, we thank you very much.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman—Mr. Knox, I call your

attention to line 18 on page 2 of the bill, where you refer to one additional motor vehicle. I don't think that is good language. I have

talked with Mr. Darden. I don't want to offer an amendment and

have it go back to the House, but I think that ought to be "replacement," instead of "one additional motor vehicle." I think if Mr.

Darden brings that out in the report of the committee it will be clear.

You don't mean to allow him to buy a new automobile, and then

that language would indicate a second automobile, if you construe

it technically. What you want to do is give him the replacement

rather than another vehicle. Do I make myself clear?

Mr. KNOX. It is true that we are talking of a replacement vehicle.

We don't know whether that would be new or used.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Replacement is the word, rather than one

additional.

Senator STENNIS. We will let the report show that is the interpretation. We will have an executive session now.

(Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the committee proceeded in executive

session.)

(Subsequently, in executive session, the committee voted to report

H.R. 8484 without amendment, as covered by S. Rept. 460.)

0
4