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965 TO TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

GOVERNMEN't

Storage

HEARING

BEFORE THE

r1,31 COMMITTEE ON

OFFICE AND CIVIL S

JSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-EIGHTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

ON

H.R. 10 and Similar Bills

BILLS TO EXTEND THE APPORTIONMENT REQUIREMENT

IN THE CIVIL SERVICE ACT OF JANUARY 16, 1883, TO

TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT, AND FOR OTHER

PURPOSES

MARCH 27, 1963

Printed for the use of the Committee on Post Office and Civil Service

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

96962 WASHINGTON : 1963

-‘) %.,.% 13, •4

APPORTIONMENT REQUIREMIi

•z
•

,

COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICE AND CIVIL SERVICE

TOM MURRAY,

JAMES H. MORRISON, Louisiana

THADDEUS J. DULSKI, New York

DAVID N. HENDERSON, North Carolina

ARNOLD OLSEN, Montana

MORRIS K. UDALL, Arizona

DOMINICK V. DANIELS, New Jersey

LINDLEY BECKWORTH, Texas

HARLEY 0. STAGGERS, West Virginia

ROBERT N. C. NIX, Pennsylvania

EVERETT G. BURKHALTER, California

DON EDWARDS, California

JOE R. POOL, Texas

ALBERT W. WATSON, South Carolina

Tennessee, Chairman

ROBERT J. CORBETT, Pennsylvania

H. R. GROSS, Iowa

JOEL T. BROYHILL, Virginia

AUGUST E. JOHANSEN, Michigan

GLENN CUNNINGHAM, Nebraska

GEORGE M. WALLHAUSER, New Jersey

ROBERT R. BARRY, New York

KATHARINE ST. GEORGE, New York

EDWARD J. DERWINSKI, Illinois

ROBERT F. ELLSWORTH, Kansas

HOMER E. ABELE, Ohio

SUBCOMMITTEE APPOINTED To CONSIDER H.R. 10 AND SIMILAR BILIS

THADDEUS J. DULSKI, New York, Chairman

HARLEY 0. STAGGERS, West Virginia JOEL T. BROYHILL, Virginia

ALBERT W. WATSON, South Carolina KATHARINE ST. GEORGE, New York

II

•
'''..AE. UN! '"'• 40,-wilk if'e'.,

*

zMAY 12 /963 ;

4444:411,

CONTENTS

Statement of— Page

Beckworth, Hon. Lindley, Representative from Texas 2

Fulton, Hon. James G., Representative from Pennsylvania 13

Macy, Hon. John W., Jr., Chairman, U.S. Civil Service Commission,

accompanied by Warren B. Irons, Executive Director 13

III

1
0
EXTENDING APPORTIONMENT REQUIREMENT TO

TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 27, 1963

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE

COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICE AND CIVIL SERVICE,

TV ashing ton, D .0 .

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice at 10 a.m., in room 215,

House Office Building, Hon Thaddeus J. Dulski (chairman of the

subcommittee) presiding.

Mr. DULSKI. The subcommittee will come to order.

This subcommittee, consisting of Mr. Staggers, Mr. Watson, Mr.

Broyhill, Mrs. St. George, and myself as chairman, was appointed to

consider the following identical bills: H.R. 10, introduced by Mr.

Beckworth, H.R. 2863 by Mr. Fulton, H.R. 3115 by Mr. Staggers,

H.R. 3741 by Mr. Slack, and H.R. 3501 by myself.

The purpose of these bills is to require that temporary summertime

appointments to Government positions in the Washington, D.C.,

metropolitan area be subject to the apportionment requirements of

the Civil Service Act of 1883, the same as such apportionment requirements are now applicable to permanent appointments in the

-Washington area.

The bills are also identical to H.R. 5698, introduced in the 87th

Congress by Mr. Beckworth. H.R. 5698 was reported from our committee on August 30, 1962, and passed the House under suspension of

the rules on October 1, 1962. It was reported in the Senate on October 5, 1962, but was not acted upon by that body prior to the adjournment of Congress.

(The bill H.R. 10 follows:)

[H.R. 10, 88th Cong., 1st sess.]

A BILL To extend the apportionment requirement in the Civil Service Act of January 16,

1883, to temporary summer employment, and for other purposes

Be it enacted by the Sena,te and House of Representatives of the United States

of America in Congress assembled, That the sixth paragraph of section 2 of the

Civil Service Act of January 16, 1883, as amended (5 U.S.C. 633), providing for

the apportionment of appointments in the competitive civil service, is amended

by inserting "(including appointments to temporary employment of more than

thirty days in the period from May 1 through September 30 of each year, except

appointments to the postal field service and appointments of an emergency

nature)" immediately following "appointments to the public service aforesaid".

Mr. DursKi. Our first witness this morning is our esteemed colleague and my dear friend, Mr. Beckworth.

1
2 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

STATEMENT OF HON. LINDLEY BECKWORTH, MEMBER OF THE

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES FROM DISTRICT 3, STATE OF

TEXAS

Mr. BECKWORTH. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee.

I am happy to have this opportunity to appear in behalf of H.R. 10,

which the chairman of the subcommittee has accurately traced the

history of, except under another number, and that number was H.R.

5698. The chairman did omit one or two or maybe three pertinent

details about the passage of H.R. 5698, in that he failed to state that

it passed this committee 15 to 1 and also failed to state that on a record

vote it passed the House of Representatives 309 to 19.

Air. BROYHILL. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I don't yield at this time. He also failed to state

that it passed the Senate Post Office and Civil Service Committee and

insofar as I have been able to find, there was no vote against it in that

committee. It would be interesting to find out how it was stopped

overin the Senate.

I do hope that one day some way we can get votes on it in both

bodies and on the record.

In connection with the report given by the Civil Service Commission,

which mentions that in the opinion of those of the Commission that

the apportionment system for nonsummer jobs is probably out of date,

I wish to emphasize that this committee of which I am a member,

considered in the form of an amendment, offered by Mr. Broyhill,

whether or not the present apportionment system for nonsummer

civil service jobs is out of date and the vote in the committee was 15

to 1, as each of you who happened to be present, recalls. So we do have

an up-to-date opinion, Mr. Chairman, of this committee on the Civil

Service Apportionment Act, which has been law since 1883; the vote

of this committee was taken at the time this bill was voted on—H.R.

5698.

I feel my observation is pertinent in view of the report that we have

recently been sent by the Civil Service Commission. It is not my

purpose to take a lot of time on this bill because it has been considered

by the subcommittee, not the same subcommittee, but the chairman

was on it and Mr. Broyhill was on it. The committee considered it,

the House considered it and it is very clear. It is a very brief bill.

There are facts and figures that are indicative of why the bill was introduced by several of us and I might add, there is a companion bill

in the Senate, introduced by Senator Randolph of West Virginia, who

is a member of the Senate Civil Service and Post Office Committee.

I simply ask that the subcommittee reevaluate the legislation and

then do what the subcommittee wishes to do. On March 20, 1963, I

received a letter signed by Everett M. Kirkpatrick, who is the executive

director of the American Political Science Association with offices at

1728 Massachusetts Avenue NW., Washington, D.C. I have read in

the paper that this organization has been interesting itself in the

question of summer employment. The organization does not endorse

my bill, though the organization has seen the Congressional Record

of October 1, where the bill and others are discussed, not only by me,
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 3

but by several Members of Congress. Mr. Kirkpatrick writes this and

I do want to quote one sentence of his letter to me:

The objective of such legislation seems to me to be worthwhile and I certainly share your feeling that these positions should be filled on a competitive

basis and the young people throughout the Nation should have an opportunity

to get firsthand experience in the work of the Government.

This is the main objective of this legislation, to give young people

from all over this country some opportunity at least to refuse the

privilege or the offer to work for the Government in the summer and

may I emphasize this to the subcommittee. So far as trying to work

up a system where patronage would be the controlling factor, that

is the furthest from what is in my mind. I would be delighted to see

all the patronage factors eliminated totally so far as these jobs are

concerned. I am a strong believer in civil service. I have great faith

in civil service.

As far as these summer jobs are concerned, I would like to see a

written competitive examination given to just as many students as

possible and if all of them can qualify from two or three States by

that method, it would be all right with me. It is possible that some of

the jobs may not be the type that one could give written examinations

for but in most instances it is my opinion thorough written exams

could be given. I have often said the ability to get good people for

the Government service generally is no better than the thoroughness

of the examinations given, because examinations mean that, generally

speaking, stronger people will qualify.

I would like to see the Civil Service Commission use in as many

instances as possible, Mr. Macy, the kind of examinations you give

for the Academies. These examinations test rather well, as I view it.

very well indeed. You know, I have used that system over a period

of some 20-odd years and I'm glad to say, that most of the boys I

have been able to find and judge through that system have been good

students and have done well in the Academies. But these are real

examinations. If one gives that examination to about 70 boys, ordinarily, he will find only about 15 doing good on the examination. This

has been my experience.

I might say—this thought only comes to my mind now—that this

kind of an examination could be given this year and you would have

an eligible list that could last 2 or 3 years. Then if you had a lot of

summer jobs to fill, you could look to that list, as you do to other lists

of 2 or 3 years, to get employees and if you found that the examinations were too costly, you could only give one every 2 years or every

3 years.

I believe this is about all the statement I have to make at this time,

Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULSKI. I have a few questions to ask of you.

Mr. BECKWORTH. All right, sir.

Mr. Du-LsKi. You mentioned in your testimony that you believe in

a strong civil service. On February 20, 1963, an article appeared i 

the Evening Star, "White House To Control Student Job Patronage." Are you familiar with the statement that was in the paper?
•

4 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

Mr. BECKWORTH. I read something about that. I read nearly all

of the fine columns of our writers like Mr. Young, Mr. Kluttz, and

Mr. Cramer, but I made my statement clear on patronage just then.

I stand by that statement. I am a Democrat and I would say what

I said whether a Democrat is in the White House or a Republican is

in the White House, I believe we ought to fill, not only the summer

jobs, but all these jobs on real merit. This can best be done by thorough testing.

I have said this and I say it here before the chairman of the Civil

Service Commission. I think we have entirely too many unassembled

examinations instead of assembled examinations and that conclusion

I have come to after observations of long duration. A real strong

test, in my judgment, will assure stronger people for this Government. We have lots of wonderful people in the Government, but

our Government needs the best people we can get. This is cheaper

for the taxpayer in the long run. With costs of Government so high,

the inefficient, unprepared hanger-on type must never be hired and if

hired, weeded out.

Mr. DULSKI. Did you read the report of March 20 on this bill by

Mr. Macy, Chairman of the Civil Service Commission?

Mr. BECKWORTH. Yes, sir, I have.

Mr. DULSKI. Do you agree with the statement that says:

There appears to be far less interest on the part of citizens in participating

in affairs at the seat of Government.

Do you think there is less interest now?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I think there is considerable interest on the part

of people throughout this country in learning about their Government, yes, on the part of young people, and older people, too. Not

only is that true, but people all over this country are paying more

attention to the Government, and I'm proud to say that is the case.

One reason for this, in my judgment, is because of the very high cost

of Government. We now have almost a $100 billion budget. This

I regret very much. I want to see economy in Government.

On the other hand, assume the statement you quote is true, then

this bill would have little effect. There would be nothing to worry

about.

Mr. DULSKI. Do you agree with the statement, Mr. Beckworth ?

You stated before you have many inquiries. I have many inquiries

as far as jobs are concerned. Now the statement was made that there

is very little interest at the seat of Government. Don't you think that

students all over the country are interested?

Mr. BECKWORTH. That has been my conception, very definitely.

Then, too, part of that statement sent here by the Commission, as I

recall, indicates this is true in connection with the lower paid year

round jobs. There is less and less interest in overall employment for

the Government in lower paid jobs; year around jobs perhaps. I am

talking about the report. It is true that in connection with the jobs

that pay the lowest in our Government, people can't come from California to take them. But, back to the statement in the political

science letter, the thing that I am mostly interested in, and I say this

as a former teacher, is to give these boys and girls who want to learn

something about this Government, based on merit, an opportunity at

least to have their applications considered.
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 5

Mr. DULSKI. You have made another statement that the positions

are to be taken from the list; is that correct?

Mr. BECKWORTH. What is that?

Mr. DULSKI. There will be an examination and after the people

qualify, they are placed on a list. Now would this individual—let's

say he is a sophomore in school and he is on this list and he is up

here to work for the Government for, let's say, 3 months. He goes

back to school in September. Would he be in the same position to

qualify for the job the following year because he is a junior?

Mr. BECKWORTH. That, of course, would be a detail that would have

to be worked out. If he did a good job of work and the officials of

the Government felt like he is the one that is needed for the place, I

would have no objection. The idea in this Government is to have the

man that can deliver the goods working. But the idea, too, is to

give students from all 50 States a fair shake. Two or three States

getting three-fourths of the summer jobs is a one-sided situation, in

my opinion. The summer job program could and should be better

balanced as between States.

I had a letter this morning—I do not make this as a statement—but

this is the kind of thing that we want to avoid. I am not going to

mention the name. The letter was sent to me this morning. This

is from a boy that has worked for the Government in the summer.

It is dated March 25. I want to read this paragraph.

I would ask that the program itself be given careful scrutiny. While the idea

of making Government service accessible to college students is a sound one, at

times it amounts to a needless waste. While many students do make worthwhile

contributions to their agencies, others spend most of the summer reading books

and hustling coffee.

Now I didn't make that statement but if it is true, it ought to be

stopped.

Mr. DULSKI. That is part of the administration of this program,

but I am just referring to the bill.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Your specific question?

Mr. DULSKI. The specific question is this: According to the civil

service law, you are on probation for a certain length of time. Now

these boys and girls who are coming into the Government that are

serving in these positions from all over the country, would you retain

them on the list or would they be automatically out and would there

be an opportunity for the others on the lower scale?

Mr. BECKWORTH. My bill doesn't go into that question. My bill is

a very simple bill on the question of temporary employment apportionment. Actually this bill doesn't touch that. It is an apportionment bill. I think there again high merit should be the determining

thing, high merit worked out by the Civil Service Commission and

the agency involved.

Mr. DULSKI. You worked very hard to procure the information you

submitted to us in the last Congress and also this year. Did you have

access or did you have the cooperation of all of the agencies to procure information or were there some who refused?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I finally got some of it, but it was a real difficult

job to get. And I didn't get all of it because actually, the information that I have presented in tables, I obtained agency by agency

96962-63 2
6 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

and the sum total for each year was in connection with some 2.

'

000

or 3,000 jobs. The columnists say that there are some 10,000 jobs.

When I was before the subcommittee before, I mentioned this in.

my testimony. I said that I would be glad for the Civil Service Commission to bring up to date the total distribution with reference to

the 10,000 jobs, if there are that many jobs. Possibly if that could be

done, it might show a picture not nearly so one-sided as the one shown

in the tables that I obtained or conceivably it could show them more

one-sided. But I believe the Congress ought to have that information.

I call on the Civil Service Commission now to show the geographical

distribution, State by State, of all summer jobs in the Washington

area.

Mr. DULSKI. That is the reason I asked the question. The Commission shares the sentiments and I'm quoting right from their

report:

The Commission shares the sentiment for providing an opportunity for as

many of our youth as possible to work for the Federal Government in the

Washington, D.C., area. We have constantly encouraged agencies to develop

worthwhile and substantial summer employment programs which will provide

students with valuable insights into the workings and problems of Government.

Now, if the agencies and the Civil Service Commission are so in

favor, why were the agencies so reluctant to give you information?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I do not want to indicate that I was totally refused, but one agency, for example, told me I had no business with

that information and I don't know why.

Mr. DULSKI. You didn't accept their reason, of course?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I did not accept it. And incidentally, another

Member of Congress, who hasn't introduced a bill, helped me to get

some information. It shouldn't be difficult to obtain, as the Congress

has a right to these details, in my opinion.

I mentioned 10,000 summer jobs, but I don't know how many there

are. Here is a column dated February 22, 1963, by Mr. Cramer, and

I want to read this. I don't make this as a charge. You will recall

I have made no incriminating charges about our agencies at any time.

I do have these tables and they speak for themselves. Here is what

Mr. Cramer said:

The truth about students' summer jobs in the Washington area—about 11,000

last year.

And he says—

The truth isn't pleasant. The truth is about 5,000 jobs may be justified.

The rest are padded and made jobs.

Now that is not my statement. It goes on to say:

For years Federal agencies have made it a practice to save up routine tasks

and unencumbered funds so as to be able to provide summer employment to

the sons and daughters of agency bigshots and others favored. There is excuse

for hiring summer replacements for these employees, who are on vacation.

There is no excuse for the summer job racket which has grown up or the illadvised White House attempt to take advantage of it.

Now I don't allege that these jobs are made jobs. I say if they

are, in view of the great cost of Government, that practice ought

to be cut out. I might say this, that in the same article, there is

no indication of friendship toward my bill. In fact, the article says

my bill is the worst possible approach to a solution.
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 7

It may not be that my bill is exactly the answer, but, in my judgment, there is a workable way to give the boys and girls, the students

throughout this Nation an opportunity to be tested for these jobs,

and then to learn, after qualifying by merit, something about our

Government at firsthand. I think there would be a way. Merely

alleging that any proposal that would change our present one-sided

system is unworkable is a poor excuse and reason, indeed.

Mr. DULSKI. Mr. Watson, do you have any questions?

Mr. WATSON. Mr. Beckworth, to your knowledge is there any competitive examination being given now for this summer employment

in any of the agencies?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I think that the Chairman of the Commission

would say there is and he will be on in just a minute and I think there

are perhaps a good many competitive examinations. As to how competitive they are, I don't know. But I'm sure in my own mind they

could be much more competitive. One of the ways to make them

competitive is to give the boys and. girls throughout this country

information as to when these exams will be and where. That is

one of the ways to make them competitive.

Mr. WATSON. In other words, they might be having a competitive

examination but no one knows about the exam except those that they

would like to fill the positions?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I would prefer to say that the most means possible to make the examination public knowledge may not be used at

this time.

Mr. WATSON. Another question, I notice here from your summary

that you have some total of 2,321 of these jobs that have been identified

or at least information given you?

Mr. BECKWORTH. From agencies.

Mr. WATSON. From agencies in 1959. I notice the reports now

range up to 10,000 or 11,000. Has the growth of Government warranted such an expansion of this summer employment?

Mr. BECKWORTH. That information I don't have, but I wish I

had it and I request now that the Chairman of the Commission get

the distribution figures about whatever number there actually are. I

would like to know and I think the Congress has a right.

Mr. WATSON. One final question. I notice from the newspaper account that the White House is fixing to usurp the Civil Service Commission's authority on this. Who has handled it heretofore, just

heads of agencies or has the Civil Service Commission had anything

to do with it?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I believe the Civil Service Commission has had

something to do with it generally, as it does in connection with such

a high percentage of the jobs in Government, yes. And I say again,

I have great confidence in the Civil Service Commission, but the Commission, in my judgment, has not given adequate attention to the

question of the distribution of these summer jobs, State by State, this

could be true, too, with the year-around jobs, so far as the Washington

area is concerned, particularly with the higher grade jobs.

Mr. WATSON. I, too, have confidence in the Civil Service Commission, if they are going to do the job. But, if they are just sitting and

somebody else is doing the job, somebody is failing along the way

somewhere.
8 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

Mr. BECKWORTII. When they give written examinations, they usually are very thorough.

Mr. WATSON. I have no further questions.

Mr. DULSKI. Mr. Broyhill.

Mr. BROYHILL. When I asked the gentleman a moment ago if he

would yield, I was going to make the brief observation, when the

gentleman was referring to the 310-to49 vote for this legislation

last year, that I was surprised that there were as many as 19 votes

against the legislation, particularly in view of the fact that it was

brought up under suspension of the rules and we had only 40 minutes

to debate the legislation. Certainly it boiled down in that limited

time for debate on the surface there, that Members were being called

on to vote as to whether or not the people they represented would get a

fairer cut or a fairer shake of the distribution of summertime Federal

jobs. Certainly with that limited discussion and debate, I would

expect the Members to represent what seemed at that time to be in

the best interests of the people they represented.

I will make a confession here, that I represent people who possibly

would be adversely affected by this legislation.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. BROYHILL. Yes I will be glad to yield to the gentleman.

Mr. BECKWORTH. DO you mean if true written tests are given?

Mr. BROYHILL. I'm coming to that. That is going to be a question

I intend to ask the gentleman. The point I am trying to make here

is that I will confess that, undoubtedly, I'm somewhat prejudiced

about this legislation, prejudiced against it, because I feel some people

that I represent might be adversely affected. But I think the rest

of the Congress is prejudiced in their position on this legislation, so,

when the gentleman mentions the vote of 310 to 19, I don't think that

you have a fair, unbiased court adjudicating this legislation. I think

they are just acting in what might be politically, and properly so, in

the best interests of the people that they represent and not what is

fair and administratively the best system. That is just a statement.

If the gentleman had yielded, I wouldn't have spoken that long, but

I don't think that the vote is a significant basis to judge the merit

of this legislation, although that is the way bills become law and it

is a proper way, I guess.

But the gentleman made a statement, a moment ago, that he felt

that these jobs should be awarded on the basis of competitive examination, without regard to politics.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Insofar as it is practical to give these competitive

examinations, and I would hope a lot more could be given than have

been given.

Mr. BROYHILL. I think we are both in agreement on that. Does

the gentleman not think that the legislation he proposes to seek here

would work in the opposite direction, because, if the gentleman favors

a competitive examination, actually this requires the Civil Service

Commission, does it not, to work on the basis of where people live,

not on the basis of qualification or not how many people have applied

for these jobs who are qualified?

Mr. BECKWORTH. The gentleman understands what my bill does. It

is an apportionment bill and the apportionment law we have had since

1883. It is not a bill that is designed to cover all aspects of summer
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 9

employment. It is a first step. It is an apportionment bill. That

is all it does.

Mr. BROYHILL. I understand that, but the gentleman stated 

Mr. BECKWORTH. I expressed the hope and the desire to see stronger

examinations in connection with this summer employment, and all

employment, and I mean that.

Mr. BROYHILL. I know the gentleman does.

Mr. BECKWORTH. The bill does not cover that, and the gentleman

knows it.

Mr. BROYHILL. Well, I think it works against what the gentleman

seeks to do.

Mr. BECKWORTH. The gentleman has a right to interpret it any way

he wants to. Yes, he does, and I have a right 

Mr. BROYHILL. I apologize to the gentleman. I am not attempting

to argue.

Mr. BECKWORTH. I know that.

Mr. BROYHILL. I know the gentleman is sincere when he says he

wants these jobs awarded on a competitive system, but my question

was, well, let me make a statement. I do not see how what the gentleman proposes to do is consistent with that statement because he says,

in the bill, that they must be awarded on the basis of where the people

live.

Mr. BECKWORTH. The gentleman understands my bill. We have

been through this in the other room out there, and the gentleman

knows we have had plenty of discussion here, at this very table, and

there is no great puzzle about the bill.

Mr. BROYHILL. Does the gentleman have any figures available, at

his disposal there, of the number of jobs that will be affected by this

legislation?

Mr. BECKWORTH. The gentleman has put in the October 1 Congressional Record all the figures that the gentleman has available.

Mr. BROYHILL. You do not have the answer to that question?

Mr. BECKWORTH. The gentleman has made the plea several times

for the Commission, and you will recall that plea in this room right

here, to (Yet up-to-date figures and find out how they are apportioned,

if there be 10,000 or 11,000, all of them. I would like to see the

figures.

Mr. BROYHILL. I didn't understand the answer to the question. You

have the figures or you do not have them?

Mr. BECKWORTH. In the October 1 Congressional Record, the gentleman will find all the figures that I have been able to get from any

source.

Mr. BROYHILL. Will that show the number of jobs that will be

affected by the legislation?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I say again, the gentleman has all the figures he

has with an explanation in the October 1, 1962, Congressional Record.

There is a considerable difference of opinion in the mind of the gentleman and the Civil Service Commission as to just what the effect is.

The Civil Service Commission indicates, actually, the bill won't have

much effect. That, I might add, is a rather strange thing when so

much effort is being made against the bill, from time to time. If it

won't have much effect, I don't understand why it would be creating

so much interest.
10 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

Mr. BROYHILL. Do the figures that the gentleman is making reference to, will they show the percentage of jobs?

Mr. BECKWORTH. These figures show the distribution of these jobs

and the gentleman has seen these tables.

Mr. BROYHILL. Will it show the percentage of all Federal jobs in

the Washington area?

Mr. BECKWORTH. The figures, the gentleman has seen, I might say,

several times. They are in the October 1 Record. There is a difference in the interpretation as to how far reaching this bill would be.

Mr. BROYHILL. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DIMSKI. Mrs. St. George.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Mr. Beckworth, I

notice that you did say that you had some difficulty getting all the

figures that you required, and that you would like to have more cooperation, let's say, in some agencies; is that correct?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I would have hoped the Civil Service Commission

would have had these figures. They didn't have them. I had to go

to each agency, and I refer to the October 1 Record, yes.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. And one agency implied they did not have to give

you these figures?

Mr. BECKWORTH. One agency did.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. I am sure you are familiar with a statement made

by Senator Saltonstall in the Record of March 4, and in this he introduced a resolution to print, as a Senate document, a compilation of

materials entitled, "Summer Employment of College Students by the

Federal Government for 1961." Now we have been talking about

different figures here, but Senator Saltonstall seems to be fairly positive about his figures, and I would just like you to listen, if you will,

to this one sentence.

Mr. BECKWORTH. I haven't seen those figures. May I ask if they

are in the Congressional Record?

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. They are in the Congressional Record which I

hold before me.

Mr. BECKWORTH. What date?

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. March 4.

Mr. BECKWORTH. March 4, 1963?

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. I will give you the page number-3264. The Senator says in this one paragraph:

This material shows by departments the number of positions excluding clerical jobs likely to be available to the summer students by location and job description. The complete report provides the names of the universities from

which the students who served as interns in the summer of 1961 came. It has

not been thought necessary to include this information as part of the Senate

document, but it will be on file at the Library of Congress. In 1961, the summer for which the study was made, a total of 12,033 were reported to the Library.

Though final figures are not yet available, it has been estimated that more than

13,000 jobs will be filled by students in the summer of 1963.

I think those figures are interesting and I may say to the gentleman, that I have the greatest of sympathy for him in trying to obtain

figures. If he will forgive a quotation that perhaps could not be made

on the air, it reminds me of something I have said before in matters of

Government and this is a quotation. I don't use the language myself

and that is "That there are lies, damn lies, and statistics." I think

that is something that we all suffer under.

Mr. BECKWORTH. I appreciate that.
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 11

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. NOW if you would indulge me, Mr. Chairman,

there is one other question I would like to ask. As you know, there

has been a great deal of talk about having these summer jobs put

under strict patronage and I understand that there is an office, at the

present time, in the executive branch of Government that is handling

some of this material. I would like to just quote one thing that has

come to my attention. Of course, one incident doesn't amount to a

great deal.

I was told last week of an agency interviewer telling a Yale law

student a summer job was not available due to patronage considerations.

Of course, if that is true, I am sure the gentleman doesn't want that

any more than I do.

Mr. BECKWORTH. I don't favor that.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. I would also like to ask the gentleman if he feels

that his bill will make such a situation more or less impossible?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I believe that my bill would be a step in the right

direction in trying to give the boys and girls throughout this Nation

at least a little better opportunity than they have had to be here,

whether they be Republicans or Democrats.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. I want to congratulate the gentleman on that

thought because I think it is very important.

Mr. BECKWORTH. That is the way I want it to be.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. We have taken a great many years to develop a

civil service in this country, as the gentleman well knows, and I

don't like to see it tainted in any way by either political party myself.

Mr. BECKWORTH. We have spent millions of dollars, as a government, to try to acquaint people with the workings of our Government.

We have brought people from around the world to Washington to

learn something about it. I have an article here, dated March 26,

1963, in the Washington Post, which has this pertinent sentence:

For in addition to the 3,000 foreign students enrolled at local universities,

there are thousands more who visit Washington as part of their educational

experience in this country.

That refers to foreign students and we have helped pay a lot of the

bills to bring people here, one way or the other, to learn something about

our Government and I feel that if a boy from West Virginia, and incidentally, I believe West Virginia had 4 summer jobs in the 2,300

I had enumerated or 5, has the same qualifications as a boy from one

of the closer States and some of them had 600 jobs or 500, I think,

he ought to have at least a fighting chance to get here and learn something about it. You know, West Virginia is not a lot farther than

some other States close by.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. I fully subscribe to that.

Mr. BECKWORTH. I just do not believe it has worked out in quite as

fair a way as the American system likes to see summer jobs or any

other thing work out. Perhaps it is not by design, but it has not

worked out as fairly as we like to see it.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. Does the gentleman think it would help at all if

we could get this whole thing set up a little bit more the way we do

the examinations for the service academies, by which Members of

Congress could have something to say and do about the appointment

of these young people?
12 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

Mr. BECKWORTH. The very able lady was not here when I paid

very 

Mrs. S. GEORGE. I regret I was not.

Mr. BEcxworril (continuing). High tribute to the Civil Service

Commission in the way those examinations have worked out for me

and I used this method as far back as 24 years ago. By the way, we

sometimes have as many as 70 and it is amazing how rapidly you can

give those examinations, Mr. Chairman, and get meaningful lists from

which to choose Academy candidates. It works fine.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. I will tell the gentleman, West Point being in my

district, I have to give that examination to well over 100.

Mr. BECKWORTH. One of the things I'm proudest of, I am using

these examinations and I have used them almost without fail and

I seldom have a boy that fails to stay because of grades in any of

the academies. The system has worked fine.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. I agree with the gentleman. That is all.

Mr. DULSKI. Mr. Watson.

Mr. WATSON. Mr. Beck worth, one further question. I was not

here last year and it was with much interest that I noted my

colleague's question or comment on the other side about the 309 to

19 vote last year. You were here, were you not?

Mr. BECKWORTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. WATSON. And did I understand correctly that was not a considered vote on the part of the Congress, in your judgment?

Mr. BECKWORTH. It is true that we had the bill on the Suspension

Calender. We got it up the only way in the world we could get it up.

This has been a small thing, in some respect, but it has had hard

sledding, it really has. We got it up the only way in the world we

could and may I say, if and when we ever pass it out of here again,

if the gentlemen would like a rule for 4 hours or 6 hours, I will go

with him to the Rules Committee and try to help him get it. I wouldn't

mind seeing it discussed 10 hours, if that is what the House wants. I

am not afraid of discussion on any bill.

Mr. BROYHILL. Will the gentleman yield? I want to reply to the

gentleman. I know the gentleman from Texas is not afraid of discussion. That is not what I was trying to imply. I felt there was

some prejudice on the legislation that was not fully discussed and

with a lack of discussion, naturally Members want to vote in what is

the best interest of their district. I believe, frankly, it would be just

as simple, maybe more preferable, to go ahead and let the bill go on

through on the Consent Calender by unanimous consent and sail on

down to the White House and let the President exercise his responsibility and veto it.

Mr. BECKWORTH. He can do just what he wishes, naturally.

Mr. WATSON. Even though it were brought up as it was, which

limited the debate on it, still am I not correct in believing that the

Congress did consider this measure when they voted and it was not

just a cursory vote?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I think the Members knew what they were voting

on.

Mr. DULSKI. Thank you, Mr. Beckworth. We appreciate your

testimony on this bill.

We will now hear from our colleague, Representative Fulton of

Pennsylvania.

Mr. Fulton.
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 13

STATEMENT BY REPRESENTATIVE JAMES G. FULTON, OF

PENNSYLVANIA

Mr. FULTON. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, I

appreciate very much the opportunity of appearing here this morning

in support of my bill, H.R. 2863, which would require that temporary

summer positions that become available in the Washington, D.C., area

be subject to the apportionment requirements of the Civil Service

Act of 1883.

I am sure that most Members of Congress share with me the experience every year of having a number of extremely deserving boys

and girls in their districts appeal for help in getting summer positions

with the Government in Washington. And I am sure that most

Members also share the frustrating experience with me of not being

able to help these youngsters because such jobs are filled by young

people living in or near the Washington metropolitan area.

It is indeed a great inspiration and a wonderful experience for a

young person to be able to come to Washington during the summer

and have the opportunity to work in the Federal service. This experience should not be limited in large part, as it is now, to young

people living close to Washington. It should be made available to

every deserving young person throughout the country.

Mr. Chairman, I spoke for and actively supported this legislation

when it passed the House on October 1 of last year. I sincerely hope

that your subcommittee will favorably report the legislation again

this year, as it is my firm conviction that it will go a long way in

helping to correct the present disparity and inequity that exists among

the students who live some distance from Washington and who are

anxious to be considered for summer work in Washington with the

Government.

Thank you.

Mr. Durrimu. Thank you, Mr. Fulton.

We are honored again to have our esteemed friend, Mr. Macy,

with us. I think Mr. Beckworth expressed the sentiments of all of

us, in that we have a high regard for the civil service system. I think

Mr. Macy has an outstanding record in that field. We are very

honored to have you, and Mr. Irons here this morning.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN W. MACY, IR., CHAIRMAN, U.S. CIVIL

SERVICE COMMISSION, ACCOMPANIED BY WARREN B. IRONS,

EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR

Mr. MACY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of

the subcommittee. I am pleased to have an opportunity to testify

on these bills with respect to temporary summer employment. At

the time the predecessor bill in the 87th Congress came up for hearings

on August 9, 1961, I was unable to be here. Mr. Stahl of the Commission staff offered testimony which I feel covered the ground very

well, but I'm pleased that Mr. Irons and I have an opportunity to

extend the record and to answer some of the questions that have been

raised in the interim with respect to this bill.

96962-63 3
14 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

We have benefited a great deal from hearing the testimony of your

colleague, Mr. Beckworth, who preceded our appearance. I hope

that in our statements, we will be able to further answer some of the

questions that were raised.

Mr. Chairman, I do not have a formal statement. I would like,

with your permission, to introduce into the record the Commission's

official report of March 20, 1963, reporting on the five bills that are

identical, with H.R. 10 heading the list. These are bills introduced

by yourself, Mr. Chairman, Congressman Fulton, Congressman Staggers, and Congressman Slack, in addition to H.R. 10 introduced by

Congressman Beckworth. I would like to introduce that in the record,

if I may.

Then in the interests of further providing information for the consideration of the subcommittee in its deliberations on this legislation,

I would like to offer some views and facts, if that is agreeable.

Mr. DIILSKI. If there is no objection, the report will be inserted at

at this point in the record.

(The report follows:)

11.S. CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION,

Washington, D.C., March 20, 1963.

Hon. Tom MURRAY,

Chairman, Committee on Post Office and Civil Service, House of Representatives,

House Office Building.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: This is in further reply to your requests for the views

of the Civil Service Commission on identical bills, H.R. 10 (Beckworth), H.R.

2863 (Fulton), H.R. 3115 (Staggers), H.R. 3501 (Dulski), and H.R. 3741 ( Slack),

to extend the apportionment requirement in the Civil Service Act of January 16,

1883, to temporary summer employment, and for other purposes.

The Commission strongly opposes enactment of these bills.

These bills would extend to additional appointments, a provision of the Civil

Service Act of January 16, 1883, which in our opinion is obsolete and serves little

purpose at the present time. The existing appointment provision has not resulted in comparable representation of all States and territories in the apportioned service. Forty-four States and territories are currently in arrears of their

apportionment quota. In today's labor market, we cannot attract enough applicants from those States and territories in arrears to meet their apportionment

quota. Further, apportionment is an unnecessary complication to recruitment

and does not aid in attracting quality people to Federal service. We believe

there is even less justification for apportionment of temporary summer appointments.

The principle underlying the original apportionment provision in the Civil

Service Act was a belief that the ,States and territories should be represented

in the executive branch at the seat of government. However, with the growth of

government decentralization there has developed increased opportunity for citizens throughout the country to participate on the local level in the implementation of national policies. There appears to be far less interest on the part of

citizens in participating in affairs at the seat of government. This is particularly noticeable in the lower graded positions.

A recent nationwide examination for clerical positions, grades GS-2 and GS-3,

in agency. headquarters offices in the Washington, D.C., area illustrates the general operational ineffectiveness of apportionment. Through this examination, the

Commission attempted to help overcome the imbalance which had developed in

apportionment standings among the States and territories. Competition in this

nationwide examination was restricted to veterans (who are exempt from apportionment provisions) and to nonveterans from States and territories in arrears

of their apportionment quota. A total of only 2,566 applications were received

from persons entitled to file in this examination. Of this total, practically half

were from veterans and nonveterans already living in the District of Columbia or

nearby Maryland and Virginia. We accepted the applications of these nonveterans because they claimed legal residence in States or territories in arrears

of their apportionment quota. Thus, of the small number of applications accepted, only about half were from persons actually living in the 44 States and

territories in arrears. The number actually available for appointment will be
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 15

reduced by the number who fail to appear for the written test, by those who fail

the examination, and by those who decline consideration when actual appointments are being made. Previous experience shows that a far higher percentage of

eligible applicants living in areas in arrears of their apportionment quota will

decline consideration for appointment than will those living in areas in excess

of quota.

Day-to-day experience with other examinations, such as that for clerk-typist

and clerk-stenographers, has also shown the general unwillingness of persons

from distant areas to come to Washington, D.C., for these positions. We are

convinced that this attitude will carry over to summer temporary appointments.

Financial benefits to be derived from short-term employment are not attractive

enough to induce very many persons, particularly students, to take on the burden

of travel costs to and from their homes or colleges. When you add to this cost

the expense of room, board, laundry, and sundry items for those students who

might otherwise receive these items free while working near home, it becomes

obvious that many students will have no interest in moving here for a summer

job. Thus, we fear that an additional administrative burden may be the only

tangible result from an extension of apportionment to such appointments.

The Commission shares the sentiment for providing an opportunity for as many

of our youth as possible to work for the Federal Government in the Washington,

D.C., area. We have constantly encouraged agencies to develop worthwhile and

substantial summer employment programs which will provide students with

valuable insights into the workings and problems of Government. There are

many intern programs operated in the Washington, D.C., area each year which

offer worthwhile and productive experiences for our future leaders. Relatively

few summer intern appointments are made in comparison to the total number of

summer appointments.

In contrast, the majority of summer appointments are made to fill vacancies

created by summer vacations of regular employees or to fill seasonal positions.

Most of these positions offer little or no educational opportunity in the substantial

workings or problems of Government. We seriously question, and are concerned

about the possible adverse effect of, a summer apportionment program which

might mislead students into thinking that all of these jobs were inter type.

We also wish to point out that these bills, as we understand their scope, would

affect only those appointments made through open competitive examinations.

Most summer temporary appointments are not made through such examinations.

The Bureau of the Budget advises that from the standpoint of the administration's program there is no objection to the submission of this report.

By direction of the Commission:

Sincerely yours,

JOHN W. MACY, Jr., Chairman.

Mr. MACY. You will note, Mr. Chairman, that this report strongly

opposes the enactment of these bills in the belief that this extends a

feature of the basic Civil Service Act of 1883, which has become obsolete and inappropriate for the administration of the merit system in

modern times.

The bill would extend to temporary summer employment the provision in the basic act calling for apportionment of appointments in

Washington in accordance with the population of the States and territories. The original purpose of that provision was to assure that

the principle that had existed since the early days of the Republic,

that public jobs at the seat of government be distributed in accordance with the population across the country and that be continued.

At that time, there were relatively few jobs away from the seat of

government. Opportunities for Federal employment were very largely

confined to this area.

Now why does the Commission feel that this principle is obsolete?

It is our view that there have been intervening developments since

1883, which have very largely changed the pattern of Federal employment and its location. The principal change is the vast degree

of decentralization that has taken place during these years so that

today, less than 10 percent of total Federal employment is at the seat
16 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

of government. Employment is distributed throughout the 50 States

and in more than 100 countries abroad. In fact, according to recent

statistics, the State of California has a larger number of Federal employees than does the metropolitan area of Washington.

Further, the developments of legislation have changed Federal policy relating to this principle of apportionment. The principal legislation was the Veterans' Preference Act of 1944, which exempted all

veterans from coverage under the apportionment provisions. Today,

50 percent of Federal employment is made up of those who have

served their country in uniform and are covered by the veterans' preference provision.

A third factor has been the condition of the labor market. The

Federal Government today is employing more and more individuals

with technical, scientific, and professional training in a very tight

competitive labor market and it has been the judgment of the Commission that, in the face of this labor market, the limitations of

apportionment have been inappropriate and so certain exceptions have

been made for those scarce skills.

It is interesting that even the occupational group that has a very

high number, that of typists and stenographers, tends to fall in this

shortage category, so that these positions have been judged to be outside of apportionment.

Now the wise men and women who enacted the Civil Service Act 80

years ago provided in the apportionment provision a waiver of apportionment upon the judgment of the Civil Service Commission

when it viewed that it was in the best interests of the Government to

waive it. And, as a result, there have been these changes.

Let me answer for you the question: How is apportionment actually

being applied at the present time? There are approximately 50,000

jobs at the seat of government that are covered by the apportionment

provisions at the present time out of a total employment in the metropolitan area of 232,000.

Mr. BROYHILL. What was that figure again?

Mr. MACY. The first figure was 50,000 now covered under apportionment out of a total employment in the metropolitan area of Washington of 232,000 positions. I will be happy to insert in the record,

Mr. Chairman, the distribution of the 50,000 appointments among the

various States in the Union. I believe this may be helpful. In fact,

if the Chair wishes, perhaps the members of the subcommittee might

like to look at this statement with me at this particular time.

Mr. DITLSKI. We will make that a part of the record at this point.

(The document follows:)

CONDITION OF APPORTIONMENT AT THE CLOSE OF BUSINESS SATURDAY, MARCH 16,

1963 (Nov To BE EFFECTIVE UNTIL APRIL 1,1963)

Important: The apportioned service embraces positions (with certain excep- tions) in central offices of agencies physically located in the metropolitan area of Washington, D.C. The metropolitan area covers District of Columbia: Alexan- dria and Falls Church cities, Va. ; Arlington and Fairfax Counties, Va. ; and

Montgomery and Prince Georges Counties, Md. The apportionment law does

not apply to veteran preference employees. The apportionment does not apply to positions filled through temporary appointments. Other positions exempt from the apportionment are listed in chapter A6 of the "Federal Personnel Manual."

So long as a person occupies, by original appointment, a position in the appor- tioned service, the charge for his appointment continues to run against his State of original residence.
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT .1.7

For original appointments the Civil Service Commission or its Boards of

Examiners rank eligibles for apportioned positions on registers in accordance

with the condition of the apportionment. Veterans and eligibles from States in

arrears are certified first. Nonpreference eligibles from States in excess are

listed last by individual States beginning with the one least in excess and according to ratings and are certified only after other eligibles have been certified.

State

Number of

positions

to which

entitled

Number of

positions

occupied

State

Number of

positions

to which

entitled

Number of

positions

occupied

IN ARREARS IN ARREARS

1. American Samoa 6 0 32. Wyoming 91 61

2. Guam 18 0 33. Mississippi 602 445

3. Virgin Islands 9 0 34. Arkansas 494 388

4. Puerto Rico 649 45 35. South Carolina 658 527

5. Alaska 62 5 36. New York 4, 638 3,865

6. Hawaii 175 18 37. Rhode Island 237 200

7. Arizona 360 44 38. Missouri 1, 194 1,024

8. California 4,344 604 39. Tennessee 986 848

9. Panama Canal Zone__ 12 2 40. Oklahoma 643 595

10. Nevada 79 16 41. Massachusetts 1,423 1,376

11. Oregon 489 117 42 New Hampshire 168 163

12. Washington 789 198 43. Minnesota 943 919

13. Michigan 2, 162 58 44. Iowa 762 752

14. New Mexico 263 78

15. Louisiana 900 293 IN EXCESS

16. Texas 2, 647 875

17. Idaho 184 85 45. Kansas 602 611

lg. Florida 1,368 670 46. North Dakota 175 178

19. Ohio 2,683 1,33747. Pennsylvania 3, 128 3,640

20. Indiana 1, 289 652 48. North Carolina 1, 259 1, 481

21. Illinois 2, 786 1,483 49. Maine 268 316

22. New Jersey 1,677 899 50. Vermont 108 134

23. Delaware 123 69 51. South Dakota 188 279

24. Connecticut 701 394 52. Nebraska 390 586

25. Utah 246 139 53. West Virginia 514 1,129

26. Wisconsin 1,092 618 54. Virginia 1,096 4,666

27. Colorado 485 231 55. Maryland 857 4,060

28. Montana 186 111 56. District of Columbia__ 211 10, 596

29. Georgia 1, 090 680

30. Kentucky 840 538 Total appointments. 50, 253

31. Alabama 903 591

Mr. MACY. This is a statement showing the condition of apportionment as of the close of business Saturday, March 16, 1963. This is a

quarterly report put out by the Commission and widely distributed

in keeping with the civil service provisions.

You will note in the table that there are 44 States, territories, and

Commonwealths that are in arrears. In other words, they do not have

the number of positions to which they are entitled based upon their

portion of the total population measured by the decennial census in

1960. The vertical column alongside shows the actual number of positions occupied.

Since I referred to California, let's look at that particular State.

It is No. 8. California would be entitled, based on its population, to

4,344 positions. It has 604. The Commission ascertains the legal

residence of competitors when each competitor files evidence of legal

residence at the time of his application. In many instances these

people will claim legal residence in a State although, in actual fact,

they are living in the metropolitan area. This is a characteristic of

our situation here in the Nation's Capital.

You will find over to the right of the page and near the bottom, a

listing of the States that are in excess and you will see that there are

12 such States with the great bulk of the excess being in the States of

West Virginia, which was referred to a few minutes ago, Virginia,
18 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

Maryland, and the District of Columbia, and the total number under

apportionment amounting to approximately 50,000.

You could compute that 40 percent of this 50,000 are chargeable to

the so-called metropolitan area—roughly 40 percent of the 50,000.

Why only 50,000 out of this total? First of all, 232,000 that I cited

includes a number of activities that have developed in the metropolitan

area that are not a part of the headquarter's function of Government.

We have, for example, the Naval Ordnance Laboratory. We have

the Naval Research Laboratory. We have a number of Army installations in the area that do not perform the functions of the seat of

Government. They are operating agencies that have been located

for various reasons in this community. Their employment is included

in the gross figure.

The second reason, the one I have already cited, namely, no appointee

who is a veteran is limited by apportionment. Therefore, he is excepted. The employees of the District Government are not included

in apportionment. Then the Civil Service Commission, under the

waiver provision in the law, has excluded professionals and scientific

positions that are in short supply. It is concluded that positions

GS-13 and above are not covered by apportionment and because of

shortage, the stenographer and typist category.

I take your time on this because I do not feel that this is generally

understood as it is actually working at the present time and I think it

is relevant to our consideration of the legislation.

Mr. BROYHILL. Mr. Macy, are any employees in the National Security Agency included in the 200,000?

Mr. MACY. No, sir they do not report employment.

Mr. BROYHILL. So 200,000 are civil service employees but not total

Federal employees?

Mr. MACY. These are employees reported to the Commission, who

are either under the Civil Service Act or under other personnel systems such as the FBI system, the AEC system, the Foreign Service,

but it does not include the classified agencies that have an exemption

from Congress on reporting the number of people that they have.

So if we were to include the unknown figures of the National Security Agency and the Central Intelligence Agency, there would be

an increase in the figure of 232,000.

Mr. BROYHILL. Thank you.

Mr. MACY. Moving then from apportionment, which as Mr. Beckworth has said, is the primary objective of this bill, I think it is important that we look at the summer employment situation. A great

deal has been spoken and written about it in the last few years. I

think it is correct to say that there is an increasing amount of interest

in the colleges and in the high schools in summer employment opportunities. There is a greater interest in Government today.

The Commission views this interest with encouragement because if

the merit system is to function, it needs to be competitive and we are

looking for quality to enter that competition so that we can offer the

best people available to the agencies for appointment. Now summer

employment is a factor of Federal life throughout the country, not

just in Washington, D.C.

I have roughly estimated that last year, 1962, there were probably

40,000 summer appointments made across the country. Now the

great bulk of these are in outdoor activities of the Federal Govern-
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 19

ment that experience a significant increase in workload because of the

summer. The obvious example is the National Park Service. The

National Park Service now has several million visitors in the summers and it is necessary to staff up their organization in order to

handle those visitors.

The Forest Service, because of its protection agains be

cause of the use of many of the national forests now crea

purposes, has to have additional staff.

There are other forms of seasonal work that are to the sum-,

mer season, which means that we do have a bulgt ent afa

that time and we have had it for a long time bac. ... 1.16'1

Mr. Du-LsKi. Mr. Macy, at this point, are they suited througnr

the civil service system?

Mr. MACY. They are recruited in various ways. I

manner in which they are appointed. I hope it will be

Now with respect to Washington, the Civil Service Commission,

frankly, shared some of the concern that has been expressed here that

it did not have a more accurate picture of what the summer employment situation is. So, in January, I joined with the Director of the

Bureau of the Budget in sending a letter to all of the departments

and agencies, setting forth a statement of executive policy with respect to summer employment and requesting strength of a planning

nature from the departments and agenies in order to make it possible

for us to have a clear picture as to just what the dimensions of the

summer employment situation were.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to read into the record the letter of January 25, 1963, sent to the heads of all departments and agencies, signed by Kermit Gordon, Director of the Bureau of the Budget,

and by myself.

We wish to draw your personal attention to the subject of summer temporary

employment in the Washington area.

Properly planned and carried out, a program for summer employment of high

school and college students can be a source of effective manpower for the Federal

Government as well as an opportunity to provide students with a valuable insight into the workings and problems of the Federal Government. If, on the

other hand, the program is not well handled, it can result in inefficiency, poor use

of public funds, and unrewarding experiences for these young people.

On the whole, we believe the advantages to the Government of continuing

the program for summer employment outweigh criticisms which have at times

been raised. It should be clear, however, that in every case summer employment has a purpose and reflects a need on the part of the employing agency.

In general, the employment of students during the summer should follow the

same critical standards of need, selection, and placement which apply to other

hirings.

Particular care should be taken to assure that summer student employees are

afforded genuine opportunities to observe the processes of government, that they

derive the maximum benefit from their experience, and that they are given conscientious and interested supervision, to the end that even though they may not

choose a Government career they will carry over insights into the problems and

operations of the Federal Government which will make them better citizens.

In order to accomplish these objectives, each agency should have a definite

plan for summer employment in the Washington area, reflecting its needs,

workloads, and staffing objectives. It should include provision for the orientation

and suppervision of student employees. It should insure that each summer

student employee will have a definite assignment which will occupy him fully and

productively.

You are requested to furnish the Civil Service Commission with a description

of your plans for summer employment of students in the Washington area for

1963. The statement should reflect your policies on the use of summer help in

terms of the guidelines herein expressed. It should include estimates of the num4

„
20 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

bet and kinds of students you anticipate hiring, respectively, for seasonal work,

replacement of regular employees on leave, or in-service training. This statement should be supplied by February 15, 1963.

Mr. Chairman, in response to that letter, the Commission received

agency estimates totaling 5,949. I have here the breakdown of this

tabulation by agencies. It has already appeared in the newspapers. I

believe, however, it might be helpful to the subcommittee if they had

this as a part of the record. If you have specific questions with respect to individual agencies, we will be able to discuss that.

Mr. DULSKI. It will be made a part of the record.

(The document follows:)

Estimates of summer employment in agencies in the Washington, D.C., area

by cost and nature of positions

[Nont—The detailed estimate shown below are preliminary and subject to change. Many agencies

did not have firm plans for summer hires as of the date of the survey]

Agency

Estimated

summer

employment

Estimated

payroll

Nature of positions

Seasonal IReplacement 1

Summer interns

Student

trainee 2

Other

intern

types 2

Total, all agencies 5,952 4$5, 870,476 1,443 2, 394 670 1,445

Legislative branch:

General Accounting Office (9

Government Printing Office 38 15 23 

Executive branch:

Executive Office of the President:

Bureau of the Budget 10 10,809 8 2

National Security Council _ _ _ _ 0 

Office of Emergency Plarmiug_ 25 36,200 10 15

Executive departments:

State_ 200 160,000 160 40

AID 175 200,000 100 75

Peace Corps 0 

Treasury 152 172,424 16 72 7 57

Defense:

Office of Secretary 75 74,845 0 60 15

Army 548 734, 247 49 319 90 90

Navy 594 677,300 39 160 216 179

Air Force 0 

Other defense activity_ _ __ 120 110,348 10 100 10

Justice (1)

Post Office 121 114,940 75 46

Interior 274 276,800 103 75 22 74

Agriculture 401 385, 540 188 153 19 41

Commerce 581 651,172 95 171 172 143

Labor 100 90,000 25 25 50

HEW 768 712,159 219 254 8 287

Independent agencies:

Atomic Energy Commission 0 

Board of Governors, FRS (1)

Civil Aeronautics Board 11 8, 500 6 5 

Civil Service Commission.. _ _ _ 22 23, 951 10 12 

Export-Import Bank 10 11,500 1 5 4

Farm Credit Administration__ 0 

Federal Aviation Agency 117 110,000 3 94 15 1

Federal Communications S

Commission 100 80,000 76 24 

Federal Deposit Insurance

Corporation 8 3 3 2

Federal Home Loan Bank

Board 22 28,266 7 15 

Federal Maritime Commission 6 6 

Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service 1 1, 140 1 

Federal Power Commission__ 75 90,000 47 21 7

Federal Trade Commission_ _ _ 0 

Foreign Claims Settlement

Commission 9 4 3 

See footnotes at end of table.
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 21

Estimates of summer employment in agencies in the Washington, D.C., area

by cost and nature of positions—Continued

[NoTE.—The detailed estimates shown below are preliminary and subject to change. Many agcniees

did not have firm plans for summer hires as of the date of the survey]

Agency

Estimated

summer

employment

Estimated

payroll

Nature of positions

Seasonal 1

Replacement 1

Summer interns

Student

trainee 2

Other

intern

types 2

Executive branch continued:

Independent agencies continued

General Services Administration 111 108,918 41 49 21

HHFA 42 45,050 25 17

Information Agency 44 49,128 38 6

International Communications Commission 14 13,000 10 4

NASA 349 365, 000 205 144

National Capital Planning

Commission 3 3

National Capital Transportation Agency 20 2 3 15

NLRB 30 20,000 5 5 1 19

National Science Foundation_ 20 18,810 7 12 1

Railroad Retirement Board___ 0 

Renegotiation Board 6 1 5

Securities and Exchange

Commission 30 30,000 15 15

Selective Service System 0 

Small Business Administration 38 4 30 4

Smithsonian Institution 45 5 5 35

Tariff Commission 15 14,650 5 10 

Veterans' Administration 92 95, 430 16 56 11 9

District of Columbia Government_ _ _ _ 525 374,300 430 95 

District of Columbia Redevelopment

Land Agency 5 2 3

1 Seasonal employees and vacation replacements are hired primarily for clerk-stenographer, clerk-typist,

other office clerical positions, or for miscellaneous wage board positions.

2 Student trainees are hired primarily for engineering, scientific, and other professional occupations.

3 Other summer interns are generally hired under schedule A for student assistant or field assistant

positions.

+Total estimated payroll is incomplete, since no estimates were made for some of the agencies.

No estimates made.

Mr. BROYHILL. Mr. Macy, the 5,000 figure you are using right

there

Mr. MACY. Let's round it out at 6,000. This is sort of a Macy bargain basement figure, 5,949. Let's round it out at 6,000.

Mr. BROYHILL. What is that?

Mr. MACY. Estimated summer appointments.

Mr. BROYHILL. In Washington?

Mr. MACY. In Washington, D.C., by the departments and agencies

of the Federal Government.

Mr. WATSON. Mr. Chairman, that is what they anticipate?

Mr. MACY. This is the plan that they set forth to us as their anticipated program for the summer.

Mr. DULSKI. Mr. Macy, it was mentioned in the newspapers, according to Mr. Be,ckworth in his statement, that it was 11,000. There

is a differential of almost 5,000 jobs. You say you have a request for

6,000. What happens to the other 5,000?

Mr. MACY. Mr. Chairman, all I can say is that I think the other

higher figures were either speculative or they may have included

additional employment, perhaps employment in the legislative branch

or it may have included some other activities that were not included.
22 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

But, this is a comprehensive survey. This is a statement by the agencies as to what their intent actually is.

In addition, in order to help understand the program, let me also

give you a breakdown of the figure of 5,949 into the different types of

positions that are involved.

In the first category, "Seasonal," this is employment that is necessary in the Washington area because of workloads that develop during the summer. The figure on that is 1,443.

The second category and the largest category is that of "Replacement," summer replacement. Unlike the TV programers, we have to

go out and find our replacements. They are not standing in line.

Our replacement figure here is 2,394. These jobs are for the most

part clerical, typist, stenographer. These are jobs that are established in order to replace those that are taking their vacations.

Mr. WATSON. In that connection, do the agencies elsewhere get these

replacements'? I am not familiar with that, but down home, I don't

know of any Federal agencies that bring in special people to replace

those who are on vacations. Generally the regular force just doubles

up. Is that standard policy throughout the Federal Government'?

Mr. MACY. It has been applied. I do not have a detailed response

as to whether this is the case in South Carolina, but the use of temporary help as replacements during the summer, has been used in order

to maintain the workload. Vacation time does tend to concentrate

in the summer and the agencies have utilized replacements from the

schools because ordinarily, they get very good people who are available at that time.

The third category is that of "Student Trainee." The student

trainee is an individual who has taken a competitive examination,

which I will develop in a moment, for certain specific trainee positions

that are set up with employment starting in the summer. The figure

there is 670.

The final category is that of "Other Intern Types." These are

summer interns in various programs in a wide variety of agencies

and that figure totals 1,445. So those are the four categories:

Seasonal, to meet seasonal workload peaks in the summer; replacement, to replace those that are on vacation and then the two categories

of students, the student trainee and those students who come in for

various types of training and participation jobs under the general

heading of interns.

Mr. Chairman, if you wish, I have these two tabulations which

I would be happy to distribute to the committee. You may wish

to question me about some of this data later on.

Mr. DuLssi. On your second area, Mr. Macy, you have mentioned

that is the seasonal workload. It is my understanding, being familiar with the post office, when the post office man goes on his vacation, he is replaced with a replacement.

Mr. MACY. We have a regular substitute system in the post office.

Mr. DIILSKI. The mail has to go through. We understand. Do

the other agencies prolong some of the reports or the workload so

that they get additional help or what is the significance of summer employment in reference to a replacement'? That is the thing I do not

understand.

Mr. MACY. On the replacement side?
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 23

Mr. DITLSKI. Yes, sir in the post office we have a man that takes

care of another route. In other words, a mailman goes on this vacation, he has a replacement. The mail goes through. Are they

additional help or are they a replacement?

Mr. MACY. They are categorized as replacements in contrast to

those that are hired for a seasonal increase in workload.

Mr. DuLsKi. Could you give a specific example, Mr. Macy?

Mr. MACY. Yes, let's take a typist position in the State Department. The workload there is such that they are staffed to meet it.

The Federal employees, like other employees, are entitled to vacation

time. The preference for vacation is during the summer months.

It is possible to get very well qualified youngsters to take a typist

position in the agencies to continue the work during the period.of

the regular employee's absence on vacation, so that is the type of job

we are referring to. This is a fairly typical example because the jobs

do fall in the clerical typing and stenographic area. This is one way

the agency is able to do this without taking on additional people full

time during the vacation period.

Mr. BROYHILL. Mr. Macy, will the Chairman yield?

Mr. DULSKI. Mr. Broyhill.

Mr. BROYHILL. These 4 categories you mentioned, does the legislation pending only affect the ones in the trainee programs or does it

affect the whole 5,952 or 5,949 jobs, in your opinion?

Mr. MACY. If I may take just a couple of minutes more, I think I

can answer that rather precisely. Turning then from the estimated

summer employment in Washington and recognizing that this is really

temporary employment, because we are talking now about 75 to 80

clays of employment during the summer. That is the extent of it.

There are roughly five types of appointments that are used for filling

these jobs. The first one we describe as a temporary limited appointment outside of the register. The development of this particular

appointment authority has been motivated by our experience through

the years on conducting competitive examinations and building registers for summer employment. We have found that it has been difficult

to build registers in time to fill these jobs. We have found that it is

an expensive examining process and so 3 years ago, the Commission

decided that it would set up this particular category, which goes by

the general description of "700 Hour Appointments," in other words,

where a job is to be filled for a period not to exceed 700 hours and is

at a grade level of GS-7 and below, it can be filled outside the register

if the individual meets the qualification standards. So that this is a

temporary appointment outside the register.

The second category are temporary appointments from the register. When an individual files for an examination, and let's take a

typist and stenographer examination, there is a question on the form

57 as to whether or not the individual will accept temporary appointment and for what periods of time, usually 60 or 90 days.

The great bulk of the applications that we receive for regular typists and stenographer examinations say no temporary appointment

because most of the people that take the examinations are seeking

permanent employment. They are not interested in a short-term job.

So we do have available in some parts of the country, where there is a

surplus of skills, those who have taken a competitive examination, are
24 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

available on a register, and are willing to take temporary appointments. This is a second resource that is available for summer

employment.

The third area is a career conditional appointment, a regular appointment. Those occur really in one category and that is the "Student Trainee" category. The student trainee examination is

announced each year and is conducted at about 1,000 different locations around the country and it is aimed at students, particularly in

the preparation for a professional, scientific, or technical job, and

these students qualify on the register, based upon their academic preparation up to that particular time and their scores on the examination. They are then appointed from the register for what we call a

work study program, which would begin in the summer and the

individual would work and would then go back to study and then

would work again a following summer. Clearly the objective here

is to combine learning and training and preparation for a technical

job in Government at some later time.

We also have under this authority, cooperative program appointees.

This is where a Government agency works with an educational institution so that an individual, while he is going to college, has alternate

periods of school and work and those appointments are also made as

career conditional appointments from the student trainee register.

Now, that is my third column. That is the 670 that you have on

here.

The fourth category are positions in schedule A. This is where

the Commission has concluded that it is impracticable to examine,

because of the nature of the job and the general characteristics of

the job. In this category are student assistants. These are jobs that

are filled in for the summer without the specific kind of long-term

training interest that is involved in the student trainee. These are

also jobs that are largely limited to professional and technical training

and these have been built up over a period of time in response to agency

needs for this kind of a student assistant.

Then the fifth category is that of a noncompetitive reappointment.

If a student acquires a civil service appointment for one summer and

then goes back to school, he can be noncompetitively reappointed if

his service was satisfactory. This, I think, is in answer to one of the

points about continuing appointment as a part of the picture.

I have given this as an oral picture of the appointment authorities.

The Commission also has a pamphlet 45, which it issues each year

and distributes in many thousands across the country, describing this

type of appointment. I will be happy to make the current issue of

that pamphlet available.

Getting back to your question about where the bill would apply,

the bill would apply as it is written, to those appointments that are

made to the competitive service through the regular examining process, so that it would have to be from a register established by an

examination. It would be the student trainee category, primarily.

Mr. BROYHILL. The 5,949 jobs, I notice on the mimeographed sheet

that you passed up here, the total is 5,952.

Mr. MACY. Apparently we had a late starter that added three

positions.

Mr. BROYHILL. Those figures are supposed to represent the same

group?
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 25

Mr. MACY. The same group.

Mr. BROYHILL. Now, those 5,952 jobs, does that include adults?

Mr. MACY. This includes all kinds of summer employment. There

might be some adults.

Mr. BROYHILL. And of course the bill would then be applicable to

all summer jobs?

Mr. MACY. The bill is applicable to summer temporary appointment, without designation as to type of person.

Mr. BROYHILL. Therefore, if you have to hire a gardener to rake

up the park down here, next to the Tidal Basin, that has to be placed

in the apportionment system according to this legislation?

Mr. MACY. If he was apopinted from a register?

Mr. BROYHILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. MACY. In the competitive service.

Now, this bill would not include my category 4, which are the

schedule A positions. It would not include temporary appointments,

the 700-hour appointments that are made outside the register.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. Mr. Chairman, would the gentleman yield there

for a question?

I would be very much interested to know how these people outside

the registry are appointed, Mr. Macy.

Mr. MACY. They are appointed, Mrs. St. George, by filing applications with the individual agencies, which are the appointing officers,

and the agencies determine by an examination that the applicant

may have taken with the Commission or one they give themselves,

whether or not they meet the qualification standards. There is no

ranking or register. They then select from those that are qualified for

the vacancies that are available.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. In other words, they are not in any way subject

to civil service regulations, one might say?

Mr. MACY. No, they just meet the minimum qualifications. In

other words, if it is a typist, they have to meet the number of words

per minute that we require and standard of accuracy that we require.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. But it would be possible in those particular cases

to appoint someone through friendship, knowledge, or background,

would it not?

Wouldn't that be the answer perhaps to some of the criticism that

we have seen in the press about these appointments, notably the article

that was quoted by Mr. Cramer. There must be, I don't know that

there is any backing to these statements, but I think that is something

we should certainly look into.

Mr. MACY. Let me add, that on this point, in many instances, these

jobs are used to provide summer employment opportunities for the

offspring of those working. A number of the departments in the

past few years have put out policies of their own, barring that very

thing, in order to make sure that there is not an abuse by those in

responsible positions with respect to that kind of appointment.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. Of course, that is a pretty difficult thing to police,

is it not?

Mr. MACY. it is a very difficult thing. The only answer I can provide is to say that for these temporary jobs, we set up the same examining machinery that we have for all full-time jobs. It was our judgment several years ago, that the time and expense that was involved

in doing this was not warranted in view of the limited period of time
26 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

and that it should be possible to carry out meritorious selections without favoritism within the departments and agencies under this

authority.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. How many of these people that are appointed are

from outside the registry, would you say, roughly?

Mr. MACY. Outside the registry—I would imagine that the number

from the registry would be primarily the student trainee group, that

there would be maybe some spillover in the other, but I think we can

conclude that about 5,000 of the jobs are outside the register.

MTS. ST. GEORGE. Outside the register.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DITLSKI. Are you through?

MTS. ST. GEORGE. Yes.

Mr. DITLSKI. That is Mrs. St. George, using a good old expression,

hitting the nail on the head.

I read the article by Mr. Young, and it says that the Civil Service

Commission officials have privately expressed dismay at the latest turn

of events.

Mr. MACY. We express dismay lots of times.

Mr. DITLSKI. First of all, there is an office already located some

place in Washington that is supposed to be something like a clearinghouse. Now these names that are submitted, the applicants when they

apply for this job, do they go to a particular place and are they then

referred to a certain office? Is this all based on the fact that they are

qualified now? I am not saying that they haven't been qualified. They

have all the qualifications, but do they carry a slip, where they say

John Jones sent me over, or words to that effect, and they receive that

employment?

Mr. MACY. There are a variety of referral devices. Quite a number

of Members of Congress send letters or applications from students that

are interested in this kind of program. They will send the letter to a

department, where they believe these appointments are being made.

In answer to your question, there is no central office that makes the

determination as to who should be hired. This is within the discretionary authority of the individual department and agency head and

the individuals who are assigned by him with the responsibility for

making these selections.

The reference to the White House largely grows out of a misunderstanding with respect to the summer seminars. Last year there

was a good deal of newsprint about the summer seminars that were

originated by the White House staff to provide a broader educational experience for those students who were here. And it was managed by the White House staff and a number of key officials from

both the executive and legislative branches. I believe the courts as

well appeared and talked with the students. This year, in order to

plan those seminars in an orderly fashion, the White House has requested some indication as to the numbers of individuals and the

names of individuals who are going to participate in that program.

I think this has been interpreted by some as an indication that there

is going to be a clearance process working. Obviously, there cannot be under the law, a political clearance, of appointments of this

kind, but there is an increasing degree of interest in jobs of this kind

and as a result, there probably are going to be substantially more

applications than there are jobs.
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 27

There will have to be some judgments made by those that have the

responsibility in the departments and agencies.

Mr. DULSKI. So in effect, it will be the word "patronage" could

be an indication that these jobs are passed out by the proper authorities of the various agencies and I imagine

Mr. MACY. To me patronage is a dirty word and it seems to me

has no place in our employment system.

What I would say is that this is a program where the individual

must meet minimum qualification standards but because of the temporary nature of the employment, there is not a complete competitive

examination and the department or agency head does have discretion in making the selection.

Now the standards that he applies, once he has individuals

who have met the minimum qualifications, may be standards that

are challengeable. He may use criteria that are different from those

that other people would use. But, certainly, the application of any

political test would be inappropriate and prohibited.

Mr. DULSKI. In removing the dirty word "patronage," what word

would you substitute?

Mr. MACY. I would say that this is a program for appointment of

students who are qualified to perform the various types of work that

I have described through an examination and selection process in

the agencies.

Mr. DuLsKi. You said there is no examination. All they do is file

a form 57?

Mr. MACY. I beg your pardon. I guess I didn't make myself

clear.

They have to meet an examination standard in order to evidence

that they have the minimum qualifications. The examination is administered by the agency, however, not administered centrally, except

in the case of the student trainees.

Mr. DULSKI. Then coming back to people that do not live within

the area, suppose in the early part of the year, let's say in January or

February, is it possible to know how many positions will be available

in June July, and August?

Mr. il_ACY. That is what our report showed in mid-February. We

had the report indicating the number of jobs in each department and

agency, and the type of appointments that it was broken down to

under these four headings.

Mr. DULSKI. Then it would be the 5,952? Is that right, sir?

Mr. MACY. That is correct.

Mr. DULSKI. Thank you.

Mr. WATSON. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. DULSKI. Mr. Watson.

Mr. WATSON. In reference to 5,952, actually it could be 10,000,

couldn't it, Mr. Macy? According to this, it says these are estimates,

preliminary, subject to change, this is your report here?

Mr. MACY. Yes.

Mr. WATSON. And another statement, many agencies did not have

firm plans for summer hire as of the date of this survey. So it could

very well be 10,000?

Mr. MACY. It could very well be 2,000.

Mr. WATSON. Sir?
28 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

Mr. MACY. It could very well be 2,000. In other words, there is

no reason to conclude that it will be a great deal higher rather than

a great deal lower.

Mr. WATSON. Mr. Macy, not to argue with you about this, but your

assumption that it could very well be 2,000 is not well based in fact,

because generally, when a government agency suggests that they will

use that many employees, they generally use that many, don't they?

Mr. MACY. I don't think that is necessarily so.

Mr. WATSON. In other words, the request for the number of employees for an agency in their budget request is generally padded and

they are too large and they could cut it down?

Mr. MACY. No, I think that they find through changes in the workload through the year that they do not require the number of positions that they originally estimated. We usually find that the actual

strength on a June 30 tends to fall short of the estimate that was made

in the original budget document.

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Now another question: Of course, prior to the introduction of these

bills, apparently your Commission, which I am sure is doing a fine

job, knew little about the summer employment situation other than

the student program involving some 500. Isn't that basically a true

statement?

Mr. MAcY. Well, we were aware of the summer program across the

country because of the seasonal nature of it and the fact that we have

given examinations for summer employment in the past.

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir, but a very, very small percentage, as was

pointed out earlier, probably less than 10 percent, of these student

employees took an examination through your Commission?

Mr. MACY. I think the figure I cited was slightly more than 10

percent that we know took the examination, but your point is that we

did not know about the numbers that were actually appointed outside

and the answer to that is yes, we did not, until we had this survey

that I cited earlier.

Mr. WATSON. And you had no control over that at all?

Mr. MACY. We don't exercise any control over the number of

positions.

Mr. WATSON. So far as submission of those qualified according to

the registry, you did none of that?

Mr. MACY. No,other than for the student trainee examinations.

Mr. WATSON. You state that your opposition to these bills is based

upon the fact that you believe that they will be against the basic merit

system that you now employ. Did I understand that correctly?

Mr. MACY. That is correct.

Mr. WATSON. Do you mean to tell me that according to these figures

that are put out here, that only 30 percent of the rest of the students

outside of the District of Columbia, Maryland, and Virginia merit

these jobs in the summer?

Mr. MACY. No I did not say that.

Mr. WATSON. Why would it be against your basic merit program

to provide opportunities for students outside of the immediate

vicinity to get these jobs during the summer months?

Mr. MACY. My point would be that in administering the merit system, the view is to get the best qualified individual regardless of where

he is from. If we were to inject the apportionment principle on sum-
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 29

mer employment, it would mean that we might very well have to pass

over better qualified individuals in order to go down the line to the

individual who came from a State that was in arrears on the apportionment quota.

Mr. 'WATSON. Mr. Macy, from your figures I notice that. from California you have about 37 engaged in summer employment and from

New York, 110, as against 628 from Maryland and 546 from Virginia.

As a practical matter, students coming from these distant points

would consider themselves well qualified or they would not travel the

distance to come over and seek this employment in order to get on the

job training and learn a little bit more about Govermnent. Wouldn't

that be a fair assumption?

Mr. MACY. If they would travel here from California for a job that

would pay something less than $1,000 for 75 or 80 days, they certainly

would not only feel that they were qualified, but they would have a

high degree of interest.

Mr. WATSON. They probably would be qualified in great measure

before they would make the trip?

Mr. MACY. I would assume that they would have some assurance of

appointment before they would make the trip.

Mr. WATSON. So actually, judging by your experience with the

50,000 jobs which are now filled under the apportionment theory, as

I understand from this statement that you have distributed, have you

noticed any deficiency or dissatisfaction, so far as the matter of performance of their duty, of those that have been appointed under the

apportionment procedure?

Mr. MACY. No.

Mr. WATSON. It has worked satisfactorily?

Mr. MACY. They wouldn't have been appointed if they had not met

the standard and been selected competitively.

Mr. WATSON. So there certainly has been no deterioration of your

merit system by these appointees under the full-time apportionment

basis?

Mr. MACY. No; but our feeling would be that there might very well

be individuals even better qualified who were residents of States that

were in excess who are precluded from consideration because of the

workings of apportionment. In other words, this is no indictment or

derogatory judgment with respect to those from the States in arrears.

It is just that in the workings of a competitive system, it ought to be

a matter of evaluating the relative merits of individuals without haying these arbitrary limitations.

Mr. WATSON. One final question. So far as the examinations that

are given by the various departments when they employ these students,

you do not know what form of examination is, whether it is written or

asked them, who do they know?

Mr. MACY. They follow our form, Mr. Watson, in the examinations

they give. In other words, if it is a typist examination, they use very

much the same examination instruments that we use in testing typing

at the Commission.

Mr. WATSON. Basically though, the application of the apportionment principle would not materially affect the merit system under the

civil service in getting competent, qualified employees?
30 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

Mr. MACY. Actually, with respect to summer employment, it would

be limited to a very small percentage of total summer employment.

Mr. DULSKI. Mr. Broyhill.

Mr. BROYHILL. Mr. Macy, I want to take a slight exception to a statement you made a moment ago when you said "patronage" was a dirty

word. We use it up here on Capitol Hill, not we on this side of the

aisle, but it is used up here on Capitol Hill and we make no bones about

it. I frankly don't see anything wrong with patronage in the proper

spots. I see nothing wrong with it up here. I just wish on this side

of the aisle we had a little more of it. I think what makes it a dirty

word is when it is used in the civil service system, which was meant

to be competitive.

Mr. MAcy. I was citing it in terms of my own responsibility. I

feel it is not appropriate in terms of the civil service or the career

system of Government.

Mr. BROYHILL. I was being facetious.

Mr. MACY. That is right. I want to make sure the record is clear.

Mr. BROYHILL. I would like to commend you, Mr. Macy, for the

way you explained this White House situation. I think you deserve a

medal and, as I understand you, and I don't want to put words in

your mouth, I want to make sure I understand what you said, that

you agree. I have the copy of Joe Young's column. You agree in large

part with what he said that there was a meeting at the White House

and they were requiring applications for summer employment to be

submitted to the White House, but they were doing that in order to

make a prior determination of how they should set up these seminars.

Did I understand the gentleman correctly?

Mr. MACY. I think you have added a couple of steps I didn't say.

I said that there had been'a request from the White House for the

number and names of individuals that the departments were appointincr in order to arrange for the seminars. iMr. BROYHILL. But they did ask for the names and the information

concerning the application for summer jobs?

Mr. MACY. This was the numbers that the individual agencies were

going to hire, so that the size of the program could be determined in

advance.

Mr. BROYHILL. They did not ask for the names and where they

hailed from?

Mr. MACY. I said the number and the names, so that this information would be available for use in planning the seminars.

Mr. BROYHILL. One more brief question, Mr. Chairman. I have a

feeling that there are not going to be too many jobs affected by this

legislation if it does become law, not a very large percentage of the

total number. It seems to me that the greatest danger or the greatest

injury is going to be in administrative difficulties and complications

that it will create for the Civil Service Commission. I am wondering

if you will be able to tell us or submit to us the best estimate that you

can give of the number, actual total number, of jobs that would be

affected by this legislation if it becomes law? You have mentioned

5,952 jobs. But not many of those jobs, or a very large percentage,

would be affected by this legislation.

Mr. MACY. I would say 1,000.

Mr. BROYHILL. So 1,000 jobs out of roughly 40,000—

Mr. MACY. 4,000. You are taking the entire country.
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 31

Mr. BROYHILL. 40,000 summertime jobs is what you said originally.

Mr. MACY. You are putting it in a different context. I am saying

1,000 out of 6,000. I have not studied the total nationwide summer

employment picture in sufficient detail to be responsive. I have been

assuming that H.R. 10 was applicable to summer jobs at the seat of

government because the apportionment provision of the Civil Service

Act only applies to full-time jobs at the seat of government.

Mr. BROYHILL. Actually, the reason I wanted to mention the 40,000,

and keep emphasizing it is because I think that a lot of the Members

of the House are under the impession that a larger percentage of the

summertime jobs are at the seat of government. So, I would like to

get that point out, that, of the 40,000 jobs roughly, there is only 1,000

of those jobs that come under or would be affected by this legislation.

The point was made here a moment ago about the 37-odd people from

California that are working here in the Nation's Capital. You stated,

earlier in your testimony, that California ranks second in the total

number of Federal jobs.

If you had a similar breakdown of summer jobs in the State of

California, my guess would be, and I am not suggesting that you make

such a tabulation, because I 'know it would require a lot of detail work,

but I would say the number from New York and Virginia and Maryland, the percentage of people going to California and taking summertime jobs, would be much less than the percentage of people from

California going to the seat of the National Government.

Mr. MACY. I would agree. In fact, as we say in our report of

March 20, we feel, because of the extent of summer opportunities

that exist across the country at the present time, that employment

between school years is much more attractive near the individual's

home in the State where there are these opportunities than coming

here. This was the point that was referred to in the earlier comment

on our review of the bill. The reference there is with respect to far

less interest on the part of citizens. "There appears to be far less

interest on the part of citizens in participating in affairs at the seat

of government. They are more interested in Federal Government

work nearer the area of residence. So I would agree with you completely, that these opportunities are throughout the country and that

you would find many more people from California or New Mexico

or Colorado who would be interested in employment in those States.

Mr. WATSON. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULSKI. Mr. Watson.

Mr. WATSON. Do you know how many agencies did not give you the

figures for summer employment?

Mr. MACY. How many did not give us figures?

Mr. WATSON. Yes.

Mr. MACY. Mr. Irons, do you have a response to that?

Mr. IRONS. The only agency that I recall that was unable to give

us an estimate was the Department of Justice.

Mr. WATSON. Department of Justice?

Mr. IRONS. That is the only one I recall.

Mr. WATSON. Do you mean, by this statement, that many agencies

did not have firm plans, but they just picked a figure out of the air?

Mr. MACY. What we are saying is they gave us the best estimate they

could at that particular time and it does not mean that the list is

seriously incomplete as far as the number of agencies are concerned.
32 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

Mr. WATSON. On the second page, you have down at the bottom—

is that District of Columbia?

MT. MACY. Yes, sir.

Mr. WATSON. You haw, 525. What accounts for such a large change

between winter and summer other than a few vacations that would

warrant 525 additional employees for the District of Columbia government?

Mr. MACY. You will notice that the bulk of that is under seasonal.

This is work that is involved in the park areas and roadways and

other facilities here in the District of Columbia where the summer

season is a more effective period of time to do the work, and where

you have greater use of these facilities. There are 95 that fall in

the replacement category, where the nature of the appointment would

be somewhat similar to the one I described for the Federal Government. generally.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULSKI. Mrs. St. George.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. This may not be a question that you can answer,

and maybe it is not a fair question to ask you. Why is it necessary,

if the White House is merely inquiring about these people, because

of the number that will attend the seminars, why is it necessary to

have their names and all these particulars? It seems to me all they

would need to know is how many people would be coming.

Mr. MACY. I am not in a position to give a detailed response.

Mrs. ST. GEORGE. It is an interesting point because it would be quite

a lot of paperwork to keep track of these people and, of course, they

will then go on a list, and so on, and so forth. I was just wondering

if there was any real reason why they had to have all that?

Mr. MACY. As I say, this is related to the seminar program.

Mr. DuLsin. Mr. Macy, pursuing the same question Mr. Watson

asked about qualifications, the District of Columbia has a number of

positions to which they are entitled, 211, and positions occupied, 10,596,

in this chart here.

New York has 4,638 positions to which they are entitled, and occupy

3,865. I notice California, probably because of the distance, the figures

are low, 604. Adding the first two figures up would be 10,307-some

people in round figures have tried the examination. Would you say

that those people in the other States perhaps would not be able to meet

in a competitive examination and claim the same marks, if you were

going down on a rating basis and would not qualify to fit into this

category of 10,596?

Mr. MACY. I am afraid I distributed too many charts. On the

10,596—you mean in the District figure?

Mr. Dubsiti. That is what they are occupying right now. They are

only entitled to 211. Take the State of California, they are entitled

to 4,344 and they occupy 604.

Mr. MACY. Right.

Mr. DULSKI. In your statement, in the second paragraph, you state:

"The Commission strongly opposes enactment of these bills." In a

question by Mr. Watson, you said that this act would not be fair

because of the qualifications, that the Government would not get a fair

shake from probably the responsible people. Would you say because

of these averages or distance, if they went on a qualifying examination, if all these people took an examination in California, the 4,344,
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 33

and the 10,800 people, would you say that these people in this category

would receive a better mark than these people in other parts of the

country?

Mr. MACY. I couldn't say that categorically. Perhaps I can answer

your question by explaining how the actual rating works. I think

the easiest example is to use the one that is referred to on page 2 of

the report, the clerical examination that was announced and conducted

earlier this year. You will note in there that this was an examination

nationwide for grade 2 and grade 3 clerks, where it was open to

veterans in the States in excess and to nonveterans in the States that

were in arrears.

Mr. DULSKI. Was this for summer employment?

Mr. MACY. This is just for regular employment. This is full-time

employment hut I think it is a current illustration of what happens

when we exclude the nonveterans in the States that are already in

excess. We received, as I pointed out here, 2,566 applications. Then

1,680 of those that applied took the test. And out of that number 503

passed. So this would indicate that where you apply the apportionment in the States that are in arrears and are at some distance, that

you are not getting a very substantial number of eligibles and it may

'be that these are lower level eligibles than you would get. from those

who would compete from the immediate vicinity because the jobs are

there.

Mr. DULSKI. This relates, Mr. Macy, to full-time employment.

Now a person living in a distant State would not take a position for

2 or 3 months. But you mentioned salary for the 3 months, $1,000. I

think the lowest pay would be $500 a month.

Mr. MACY. I was using the dollar figures that are on this chart.

You will notice that the charts show "Estimated Payroll for the

Summer," and 5,870,000 and I was just roughly dividing 6,000 into

that and it comes out a little less than $1,000 as the estimated payroll

per appointment in the summer employment estimates here.

Mr. DU-MK'. My judgment is that a person accepting a position for

90 days is in a different category entirely from a person who wishes

to make a career of Government service. So I feel that if these

students, especially in the farther States, had an opportunity to file

just for 30, 60, or 90 days, they would be more willing to come in, and

not for the money particularly, but for the practical experience. So I

can't see why the Civil Service Commission makes a comparison on

a .full-time basis for people in a GS-2 and GS-3, and then go into

a category that you are going to be employed for 90 days and having

the same applicants try different examinations. That is the thing

that is not clear to me, sir.

Mr. MACY. I think our assumption would be that if you had a competitive examination for a temporary position, that you would have

even less participation at distances from Washington than you do

now for full-time employment.

Mr. DULSKI. That is the assumption you take?

Mr. MACY. Yes.

Mr. DULSKI. I don't share the same views, but I feel that you have

had a great deal of experience and I respect your judgment. I fissure

you of that, but I still feel that if this bill becomes law, there will be

a type of apportionment, as far as summer employment is concerned,
34 TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT

because in all our testimony we have compared two categories. We

have compared full-time employment and summer employment.

Mr. MAcy. That is right because we do not have experience on temporary employment of a summer type, so we are comparing dissimilar

situations. I agree with your point on that. But, this is the best

experience that we have to provide you with in giving you our view

on this legislation.

Mr. DULSKI. Are there any more questions?

Mr. WATSON. Mr. Chairman, it is time to go, but it is interesting to

note that these 50,000 permanent or full-time employees, who are presumably on an apportionment basis now, that it just doesn't work that

way. We have Virginia, Maryland, and the District of Columbia

again with highly disproportionate numbers, so although the law now

requires that there be apportionment, it isn't applied or at least the

law is not followed. I am sure that you will agree with me that in

looking at the large number of employees from Virginia and Maryland and the 10,596 from the District of Columbia, that they are not

necessarily selected on the basis of merit. I would not say that they

are not meritorious by and large, but they are not selected primarily

on the basis of merit but on the basis of locality and availability.

Mr. MACY. I disagree with you. All of these are filled through the

workings of the merit system and the fact that there are not more from

distant points, is because there are no candidates who qualify. Under

the workings of our examination system, all nonveterans from arrears

States are those that come up first and are certified first. I do not

want the record to show that we are not following the law because

we clearly are following the law and it means that there are not candidates who qualify from these areas for appointments and, therefore,

in order to fill the jobs, we are going to those candidates who are in

the District of Columbia, Virginia Maryland, or West Virginia, so

that I am afraid I did not make myself clear earlier.

That is the way the system functions and that is the way we are

sure we follow the law with respect to apportionment. Now my own

view is, and the view the Commission has taken, in response to a bill

that Mr. Broyhill introduced last year, is that we would recommend

eliminating this requirement altogether because we do feel that it is

unrealistic in the light of the changed conditions that I described.

Mr. D-crism. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to have you

here.

I have an additional statement by our colleague, Mr. Broyhill, and

without objection it will be inserted at this point in the record.

(Mr. Broyhill's additional statement follows:)

STATEMENT OF HON. JOEL T. BROYHILL, A MEMBER OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE

Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank you and the members of this subcommittee

for the opportunity to tell you why I feel it would be unwise as well as unnecessary to apply to temporary summer jobs the State-proportion ratio rule which

now applies to permanent Federal jobs in the Washington area.

In the first place, it would be unwise because it would interfere seriously with

the effort of the Civil Service Commission to recruit promising students to permanent Government employment as a career.

Temporary summer employment in the seat of government serves a twofold

purpose in this recruitment program. First, it helps the Commission to convince

likely students of the many benefits and advantages of making a career of Government service. Second, it constitutes an invaluable training ground; if the
TEMPORARY SUMMER EMPLOYMENT 35

Conimission does persuade the student on graduation to enter career Government

service, he already has been indoctrinated in some of the ways of Government

and does not have to begin his permanent Government service with absolutely

no civil service background.

Thus, application of the apportionment principle to temporary summer jobs

in Washington would unduly hamper the Civil Service Commission in its efforts

to recruit and prepare capable young men and women for Federal service.

It also would disrupt the programs now in effect in many Washington area

schools whereby students may go to school part time and receive scholastic credit

for certain types of part-time Government work. Such a program is an integral

part of the educational system in many localities.

Even apart from this affirmative point, no need whatsoever can be demonstrated for extension of the ratio rule to summer jobs. The fact is that a vast

majority of students seeking summer Government employment, prefer to work in

their home areas. But students in other parts of the country who express an

interest in Washington jobs, are given full consideration by the Civil Service

Commission and many of them actually do come here for summer work under

present regulations.

Furthermore, application of the ratio rule to summer jobs would be most unfair to youngsters living in the District or in nearby Maryland or Virginia. Less

than 10 percent of all Government jobs are in the Washington area today; there

are more Federal jobs in California, for example, than there are in this area.

But the State-proportion ratio does not apply to Federal jobs in California,

only to those in the District of Columbia area. To apply the rule to summer jobs

would mean that California youths would have a preference in a substantial

proportion of the available openings here; but Maryland, Virginia, or District of

Columbia youths would have no such preference for any summer openings in California.

The present rule whereby summer jobs are filled primarily on the basis of each applicant's merits, is far more fair to all concerned than would be any application of the State-ratio rule.

This rule originally was adopted in the civil service law of 1883. Almost all Federal jobs were then located in the Washington area, and the rule was intended

to assure that the jobs would be spread among residents of all parts of the

country. The situation today is far different and actually no valid reason exists for the rule now.

Rather than extending the apportionment principle to the summer jobs, I think

we should be working to abolish it altogether.

Mr. DULSKI. The subcommittee stands adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 12 noon, the subcommittee was adjourned.)

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