BEFORE THE 

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 

In the Matter of: 

ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC., 

Respondent. 

Docket No. 

FAA-2013-0848 

Case No. 

2012EA5008 

3rd Floor Courtroom C 

Edward N. Cahn, U.S. Courthouse 

504 Hamilton Street 

Allentown, PA 

Tuesday, March lOth, 2015 

1 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

hearing, pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

THE HONORABLE J. E. SULLIVAN 

U.S. Administrative Law Judge 

RECE\\JE 

(202) 234-4433 

MAR 3 1 2015 

HEARING OOCKE ." 

ORIGINAL 

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APPEARANCES: 

On Behalf of the Respondent, 

Endless Mountains Air, Inc~ 

WILLIAM J. DOBITSCH, JR. PRO SE 

727 Windsock Lane 

Factoryville, PA 18419 

Fax: (57 0) 94 5-5 9 53 

On Behalf of the Complaint, 

Federal Aviation Administration 

ZACHARY M. BERMAN, ESQ. 

of: Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of Regional Counsel 

Eastern Region. 

1 Aviation Plaza 

Jamaica, NY 11434 

(718) 995-5699 

NEAL R. GROSS 

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CONTENTS 

Complainant's Opening Statement: 

E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S 

Exhibit No. 

C-2 Form 8410-3, 7-22-10 

C-3 Form 8410-3, 7-7-10 

C-8 Form 8410-3, 4-18-11 

C-9 Form 8410-3, 2-11-11 

C-4 Letter of Investigation, 1-4-12 

C-5 Dobitsch Letter of Response 

C-7 FAA Order 20150.3B, 6 pgs. 

3 

. 22 

Mark Reed 

41 

42 

48 

52 

54 

55 

60 

D "FAA Safety Briefing" Magazine Excerpt, 

E 

F 

G 

7-11-12 

W-2 Tax 

W-2 Tax 

W-2 Tax 

Year 

Year 

Year 

2012 

2013 

2014 

WITNESSES 

145 

160 

161 

162 

NAME DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

HARRY SOUDAS 

ROBERT FERENCE 

RANDY PALMER 

26 

85 

99 

65 

87 

108 

WILLIAM DOBITSCH 128 165 

Complainant's Closing Argument: 

Respondent's Closing Argument: 

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1 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 8:56a.m. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: We are on the record 

4 in the matter of Endless Mountains Air, Inc. 

5 This is docket number FAA-2013-0848. Today is 

6 Tuesday, March lOth, 2015. 

7 And the parties have convened ln 

8 Allentown, Pennsylvania for a hearing in this 

9 matter. 

10 So what I'm going to do, is I'm going 

11 to start off with introductions. I will ask the 

12 FAA to introduce itself, and its witnesses, 

13 first. 

14 I will then turn to Endless Mountains 

15 Air, Inc. and ask them to do the same thing. And 

16 then we will talk a little bit, about why we are 

17 here, and the amount of time we are going to take 

18 to address the issues that are still in dispute, 

19 before we put anybody on the stand. 

20 And I'm going to switch over here. I 

21 spilled a little water, so I'm just going to 

22 clean it up. 

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1 And who is representing the FAA? 

2 MR. BERMAN: Good morning Judge. The 

3 Agency, FAA, is represented by Zachary Berman, of 

4 the Office of the Regional Counsel, Eastern 

s Region. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And is that, you, Mr. 

7 Berman? 

8 MR. BERMAN: Excuse me? 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Are you Mr. Berman? 

10 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Hello, Mr. Berman. 

12 We talked on the phone many times. 

13 MR. BERMAN: Hello. Nice to meet you. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And who do you have 

15 on your side? 

16 THE WITNESS: I have with me Harry 

17 Soudas, who is going to be the Agency's primary 

18 witness. And also he is sitting here to assist 

19 me in technical matters. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, and before you 

21 go on, Madam Court Reporter, do you have the 

22 spelling already? Okay, thank you. 

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1 Mr. Berman, go ahead. 

2 MR. BERMAN: Then I also have Bob 

3 Ference as a witness. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, and I see Mr. 

5 Ference lS standing up behind you, thank you. 

6 Anything, anyone else in the courtroom 

7 you want to identify, Mr. Berman? 

8 MR. BERMAN: We have another inspector 

9 who is here just for observation. I don't know 

10 if it --

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If you would be so 

12 kind, that would be delightful. 

13 MR. BERMAN: I don't know the full 

14 name. It is Joe Brown. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Brown as ln the color 

16 Brown? 

17 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, all right, 

19 thank you all. 

20 Mr. Dobitsch? 

21 

22 Honor. 

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MR. DOBITSCH: Good morning, Your 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Good morning. 

2 MR. DOBITSCH: I'm William Dobitsch, 

3 the President of Endless Mountains Air, carrier 

4 operator, and this is my pilot, Randy --

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And according to your 

6 witness list, you both are going to testify at 

7 some point? 

8 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, I think I was 

9 planning on doing a narrative. I think we had 

10 spoken, in one of our phone calls, you said that 

11 was an option. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Sure. 

13 MR. DOBITSCH: That I could do. And 

14 then Mr. Palmer, I will ask him some questions. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, that would be 

16 fine, thank you. 

17 MR. DOBITSCH: Thank you. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Let's go to 

19 our next stage of just discussion. As I looked 

20 at the case, and the materials, before coming on 

21 the bench, it appeared to me that there have been 

22 at least 

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two distinct times, 

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1 preliminary matters, that have been addressed, 

2 throughout the proceeding, where the Respondent 

3 has, basically, agreed that the violations, as 

4 alleged, have been committed. 

5 But that there is explanation for 

6 those violations. And I see Mr. Dobitsch, you 

7 are nodding your head. 

8 So in terms of explanation that, 

9 typically, then becomes part of the defense to 

10 the alleged proposed penalty that the FAA is 

11 bringing to the Court. 

12 So I want to just double check, with 

13 both of you, as to the posture of the case at 

14 this point. Because it seemed, to me, as I look 

15 through all of the materials, that what we are 

16 here for is a dispute about the proposed civil 

17 penalty, at this point. 

18 With defenses being raised by the 

19 Respondent, to the general effect of, that the 

20 violations alleged, and agreed to, were technical 

21 in nature, not intentional. 

22 

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Or, in other words, inadvertent. That 

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1 the violations, when committed, did not 

2 compromise passenger or flight safety, and that 

3 the Respondent couldn't afford, or can't afford 

4 the alleged proposed fine. 

5 Now, there may be some other defenses 

6 that are going to be raised regarding the 

7 proposed violation. 

8 But I just wanted to check in with 

9 you, first Mr. Dobitsch, if that is the posture 

10 of the Respondent's defense. Is that, generally, 

11 why you are here today? 

12 MR. DOBITSCH: That is correct, Your 

13 Honor. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And staying 

15 with you Mr. Dobi tsch, for a moment, in the 

16 original materials that you had filed ln your 

17 Answer, which was filed on April 13, 2014, you 

18 talk a little bit on page 2 of that Answer, which 

19 totaled four pages. 

20 On page 2, at the bottom of the page, 

21 you talked about a June 21, 2012 conference that 

22 you had with Mr. Berman, or someone from his 

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1 office. 

2 Providir:g, Mr. Berman, with federal 

3 tax returns, and other financial information, 

4 that you thought supported your assertion that 

5 you could not afford the fine. That the company 

6 could not afford the fine. 

7 Do you recall that portion of your 

8 Answer? 

9 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, I do. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is it your intent, 

11 today, to continue to raise the issue of 

12 financial distress? 

13 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, it is. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. In looking at 

15 your witness list, and exhibits, I noted that you 

16 have a proposal of four different exhibits, 

17 identified as Respondent's A through D, as in 

18 David. 

19 None of those exhibits involve 

20 finances. Was there a reason why you chose not 

21 to file anything? Because I don't work for the 

22 FAA, I don't have any access, or knowledge, of 

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1 the FAA's file, or the material that you gave, 

2 privately, to the FAA. 

3 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, the reason I 

4 haven't, I really haven't been able to provide 

5 any financial-- going back, I have not completed 

6 my 2012, '13, or '14 tax returns. 

7 I actually owe my accountant, Ted 

8 Johnson, of Colley, Johnson & Sanders, in excess 

9 of 15,000 dollars. 

10 I have been pecking away at that for 

11 the past couple of years. I just recently, over 

12 the past month, cleaned the slate. 

13 So we are squared away, and we are 

14 going to work on our 2012 tax returns, as soon as 

15 tax season is over, on April 15th. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

17 MR. DOBITSCH: So, unfortunately, I 

18 really don't have, I wish I did, I would 

19 certainly -- it would certainly help my case. 

20 But, unfortunately, I just don't have 

21 anything right now. 

22 

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JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I wanted to 

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1 raise that with you now, because I don't want you 

2 to be disappointed about the quality of your 

3 defense by not knowing this. 

4 But, essentially, you coming on the 

5 stand, or someone else coming on the stand, and 

6 saying you can't afford it, generally, it is 

7 perceived as not enough evidence. 

8 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: That doesn't mean you 

10 can't say it, you are welcome to say that, and 

11 anything else you would like to say. 

12 But the Court cannot find that to be 

13 compelling absence some substantive material 

14 evidence in support of it. 

15 So let's talk with you, Mr. Berman, 

16 for a moment. You have, in your witness list, 

17 identified two different people, as you have this 

18 morning, with exhibits identified as C-1 through 

19 C-7. 

20 Since there appears to be no dispute, 

21 by the Respondent, that the alleged 12 violations 

22 occurred, that being two violations for six 

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1 different flights, dating from September 23rd, 

2 2011' through October 9' 2011, and the 

3 regulations alleged being 14 CFR Section 135.293, 

4 subsection A, and 14 CFR Section 135.299, 

5 subsection A. 

6 That would lead us to jump right into 

7 the civil penalty portion, I would think, at this 

8 point. Was that your intent, as well? 

9 MR. BERMAN: Partly. Some of these 

10 documents that I won't need to offer. For 

11 example, the offenses of the six flights are just 

12 not in dispute. 

13 But I would like to elicit them, from 

14 Mr. Soudas, about the exact particular 

15 examinations that were taken and were not taken, 

16 to put into context the -- that that would shed 

17 light on the nature of the violations, could 

18 affect the sanctions. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And would there be 

20 any reason why you couldn't put that evidence 

21 into the record, after you explained the actual 

22 proposed penalty, as opposed to going first? 

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1 Because I don't want the parties to 

2 get sidetracked into things that are already 

3 agreed to. And what makes the most sense, to me, 

4 and I'm certainly flexible about this, is for you 

5 to present your first witness, to talk about the 

6 actual penalty, and how it was calculated. 

7 And then we can talk about the 

8 rationale that goes into that. Unless that 

9 throws off your entire plan. Does that throw you 

10 off a little bit? 

11 MR. BERMAN: It does. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, then, I 

13 will leave it to you to present your case the way 

14 you see fit. 

15 Do you have any preliminary motions 

16 that you would like to make, before we start 

17 testimony? Or do you wish to make an opening? 

18 MR. BERMAN: Well, one preliminary 

19 matter. I spoke to Mr. Dobitsch this morning and 

20 asked him if he has any objections to this. 

21 And he said he does not have any 

22 objections. And what I'm proposing to do is to 

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1 ask your approval, Your Honor, to amend paragraph 

2 4 of II of the complaint, paragraph 4. 

3 Which states, currently, during each 

4 of the above~referenced flights, Mr. Palmer had 

5 not, since the beginning of the 12th calendar 

6 month, before the flight, passed a flight check 

7 in a Cirrus SR20 aircraft. 

8 What I'd like to do lS to add the 

9 following words. Add a comma after the word 

10 aircraft, and then as required by Section 135299A 

11 of the FARS. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Please repeat that. 

13 MR. BERMAN: I'd like to amend 

14 paragraph 4 to add the following words at the 

15 end. Substitute a comma for a period, after the 

16 word aircraft. 

17 And then add the words, as required by 

18 Section 135.299A of the FARS, of the FARS. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, Mr. Dobitsch, do 

20 you have any objection to that proposal? 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. DOBITSCH: No objection. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: There being no 

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1 objection the motion is granted, and the 

2 complaint, that was previously filed, ln this 

3 matter, on December 17th, 2013, is so amended, as 

4 requested by the FAA. 

5 Mr. Berman, do you have any other 

6 preliminary matters you would like to take up? 

7 MR. BERMAN: Yes. Mr. Dobitsch 

8 previously did not admit, I believe, to paragraph 

9 4. And I'd like to know if he admits or denies 

10 that paragraph, with the amendment. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, let me take a 

12 look at his Answer first. 

13 (Pause.) 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, since 

15 the complaint has just been amended, to add that 

16 new language, you have a right to answer, for the 

17 first time, that portion of the amended 

18 complaint. 

19 Do you have an answer? Do you agree 

20 that your company had violated the complaint, as 

21 amended? Do you disagree? 

22 

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MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, I would have to 

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1 agree with that, yes. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: There being an 

3 agreement, I will note that it appears that the 

4 posture of the case has not changed substantially 

5 from a few moments ago. 

6 That we are basically in a position 

7 where the Respondent has agreed to the commission 

8 of the violations, as alleged, by the amended 

9 complaint. 

10 And that the major issue, in dispute, 

11 lS the proposed civil penalty. 

12 Mr. Berman, does that assist you in 

13 your preliminary matters? 

14 MR. BERMAN: Yes, it does. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let's talk, then, 

16 about openings, closing, lunch breaks, that kind 

17 of thing. 

18 Mr. Berman, do you have an interest in 

19 making either an opening and/or closing argument? 

20 MR. BERMAN: Yes, just -- the opening 

21 will be brief, and I'm sure the closing will also 

22 be brief. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Do you have 

2 any particular preference in terms of morning 

3 recesses, afternoon recesses and/or a lunch 

4 break? 

5 MR. BERMAN: Well, I think that we 

6 should be able -- if it was up to me I would like 

7 to just go through the hearing, and minimize the 

8 breaks. That is my personal preference. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you. Mr. 

10 Dobitsch, I'm going to ask you the same 

11 questions. Do you have any interest in doing an 

12 opening and/or a closing argument? 

13 And if you don't understand 

14 terminology, that I use, just stop me and ask me, 

15 because I can explain it. 

16 MR. DOBITSCH: I guess that, 

17 basically, means a little something to say at the 

18 beginning, and something to say at the end, just 

19 to recap? 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Right. An opening, 

21 basically, is a short statement of what you 

22 intend to prove. 

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1 A closing statement is, generally, a 

2 short statement of what you have proved, and what 

3 the other side has not. 

4 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So it lS a way of, 

6 kind of, persuading the trier of fact to your 

7 position. So you can make an opening, or not. 

8 You can make a closing, or not, it is up to you. 

9 Some people do, some people don't. You 

10 can listen, Mr. Berman is going to go first, 

11 because he is the Plaintiff and you can see if it 

12 is something you want to do, or not do, as you 

13 listen. 

14 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So ln terms of 

16 breaks, and lunch, do you have a preference, Mr. 

17 Dobitsch? 

18 MR. DOBITSCH: No preference. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I will tell you the 

20 Court's preference. The Court's preference is 

21 always to take a break in the morning, and then 

22 in the afternoon, and also at lunch time. 

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1 I find that there is, always, at least 

2 one person, including the Court, that truly 

3 appreciates the opportunity to take a short 

4 recess. And we will make them fairly short, to 

5 honor the parties' interests and efficiency. 

6 So let me ask you one final question. 

7 Have the parties had a chance to talk about the 

8 exhibits, are there any exhibits, that are agreed 

9 to, in terms of admissibility, or admission; Mr. 

10 Berman? 

11 MR. BERMAN: We have not discussed 

12 whether we would agree to the exhibits. I don't 

13 anticipate any dispute over them. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

15 MR. BERMAN: And I'd like to note, 

16 about the exhibits, that there are two exhibits 

17 that the FAA will be adding that were, actually, 

18 part of Respondent's list of exhibits. 

19 And I'm going to offer them as the 

20 Agency's exhibits. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You are welcome to 

22 try, and we will see what happens when you do. 

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1 Okay. 

2 Anything from you, Mr. Dobitsch, 

3 before we start with the openings, and then the 

4 testimony. 

5 MR. DOBITSCH: No. The exhibits that 

6 we have presented or no, I don't have any 

7 changes on my side. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you. 

9 It lS now about 9:15. We will 

10 probably break around noon for lunch. I like to 

11 take an hour and 15 minutes, just so people can 

12 get out of the building. 

13 I checked with the marshalls, this 

14 morning, there is no cafeteria in this 

15 courthouse, so you do have to leave the building 

16 to get lunch. 

17 So between now and noon we will 

18 probably take a ten minute recess, some time 

19 around 10:30, or quarter to 11. 

20 And then when we come back, in the 

21 afternoon, we will talk about taking an afternoon 

22 break, probably around 2:30, between 2:30 and 3. 

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1 So if anyone needs a break, 

2 independent of those time periods, please let me 

3 know. I know sometimes an individual's personal 

4 needs simply do not go according to the clock. 

5 So, Mr. Berman, would you 1 ike to make 

6 an opening statement? 

7 MR. BERMAN: Yes, I will make a brief 

8 opening statement. 

9 As you indica ted, Your Honor, the 

10 facts here ln this case are ont, really, in 

11 dispute. Endless Mountains Air, had its pilot, 

12 Randy Palmer, operate a Cirrus SR20 aircraft, ln 

13 six flights, under the rules of Part 135, which 

14 covers an alr carrier of this nature, on demand, 

15 non-scheduled operations. 

16 When Mr. Palmer was not current with 

17 the testing requirements of 135293A, which calls 

18 for a specific written and oral test, in various 

19 areas, as well as 135299, which calls for a --

20 requires a prolonged check in that particular 

21 type of aircraft. 

22 And he was, the evidence will show 

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1 that he was not current by -- the deadline was 

2 July 31st, of 2011, with a grace month, until the 

3 next month, August 31st. 

4 And these flights were conducted in 

5 September 23rd, through October 9th. So even 

6 with the grace month he was overdue for these 

7 exams by more than three weeks. 

8 And I anticipate that there will be 

9 testimony, from Endless Mountains Air, that they 

10 misunderstood the regulations. 

11 But there will be testimony, from the 

12 FAA inspector, that these requirements are really 

13 quite clear and Endless Mountains Air, as an alr 

14 carrier, since 2003, should be familiar with 

15 these requirements. 

16 And that misunderstanding is not a 

17 mitigating factors. Inspector Soudas will, also, 

18 testify about the sanction guidelines of the FAA, 

19 and how they call for a civil penalty of 46,200 

20 dollars, in this case. 

21 And there will also be testimony from 

22 Inspector Bob Ference, of the Allentown Flight 

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1 Standards District Office. 

2 The reason we are calling him, as a 

3 witness, lS that we anticipate there will be 

4 testimony, from Endless Mountains Air, about 

5 discussions they had with the FSDO, flight 

6 standards district office about their 

7 misunderstanding of the regulations. 

8 And there might be a suggestion that 

9 Mr. Ference didn't give them the information that 

10 they needed. And Mr. Ferencee will testify that, 

11 in fact, he tried to help them, but they weren't 

12 forthcoming with information that could have 

13 helped him, to help them, to understand the 

14 regulations. 

15 And so at the conclusion of this 

16 hearing we will request that Your Honor find that 

17 civil penalties of 46,200 dollars is appropriate 

18 and that the and that is all I have for now, 

19 Your Honor. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you very 

21 much, Mr. Berman. 

22 

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Mr. Dobitsch, would you like to make 

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1 an opening now, or would you like to wait until 

2 your defensive case comes ready? 

3 The FAA goes first. When it rests its 

4 case, the your defensive case starts. So you can 

5 either make an opening now, if you want, or you 

6 can wait, or not make one at all. 

7 MR. DOBITSCH: Can I wait for now? 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Sure. 

9 MR. DOBITSCH: Thank you. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I will check back in 

11 with you at the beginning of your own case. 

12 Thank you. 

13 Mr. Berman, would you like to put on 

14 your first witness? 

15 MR. BERMAN: Yes, the Agency calls 

16 Harry Soudas. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Soudas. You will 

18 want to put your books down, on the table, and 

19 come up just by yourself, for the time being. 

20 And once you come over to the witness 

21 stand, I think our witness stand is to the right 

22 -- it is to the left, excuse me. 

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1 Before you sit down I will swear you 

2 in. 

3 Whereupon, 

4 HARRY SOUDAS 

5 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 

6 Complainant and, having been duly sworn, assumed 

7 the witness stand, was examined and testified as 

8 follows: 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Please take a seat. 

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: When you are 

12 comfortable, please state your name, and spell 

13 your last name for the record. 

14 THE WITNESS: My name is Harry Soudas, 

15 the last name the spelling is S-0-U-D-A-S. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Counsel, 

17 you may enquire. 

18 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

19 BY MR. BERMAN: 

20 Q 

21 A 

22 inspector 

(202) 234-4433 

Mr. Soudas, what is your occupation? 

My occupation is an aviation safety 

with the Federal 

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1 Administration. 

2 Q Which facility of the FAA? 

3 A The Allentown Flight Standards 

4 District Office. 

5 Q For how long have you been at the 

6 Allentown's Flight Standards District Office? 

7 A September of 2008. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm sorry, sir, I 

9 couldn't hear you. 

10 THE WITNESS: September of 2008. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. 

12 BY MR. BERMAN: 

13 Q Is the Flight Standards District 

14 Office also known as the FSDO? 

15 A Yes, sir. That is the acronym. 

16 Q And what are your duties at the 

17 Allentown FSDO? 

18 A As an aviation safety inspector my 

19 primary duties are oversight of 135 operators, 

20 charter companies, 141, flight schools, as well 

21 as Part 61 flight schools. 

22 Certifying new operators ln both 

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1 regulations 135, 141, general oversight. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm going to stop 

3 you, sir. I'm taking notes and I can't write as 

4 fast as you are talking. So you are welcome to 

5 slow down. 

6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I will slow 

7 down. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you. The 

9 question was what are your duties, and you were 

10 talking about them. 

11 THE WITNESS: Oversight of 135 

12 operators, and 141 flight schools, as well as 

13 part 61 flight schools. 

14 We work on new certifications for 

15 newly certified operators. And I also 

16 investigate incidents, accidents, occurrences. 

17 BY MR. BERMAN: 

18 Q Mr. Soudas, you used the term Part 

19 135, lS that correct? 

20 A 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Yes, sir. 

And what is that referring to? 

Part 135 is a set of regulationsthat 

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1 speaks to oversight of on demand operators, air 

2 taxi operators. 

3 Q Before joining the FAA did you have 

4 experience in the private sector, that dealt with 

5 Part 135 of the federal aviation regulations? 

6 A Yes, I did. 

7 Q And could you elaborate? 

8 A Yes, sir. I worked as a pilot for a 

9 135 operator, Scott Richard Aviation, based out 

10 of Allentown, Pennsylvania. 

11 Q And as an inspector with the FAA, and 

12 someone with experience in Part 13 5, before 

13 joining the FAA, did you have knowledge of the 

14 examination requirements for Part 135 pilots? 

15 A Yes, sir, I do. 

16 Q And which regulations cover the 

17 recurrent examination requirements for Part 135 

18 pilots? 

19 A 135.293A and B; 135.297, and 135.299. 

20 Q Can any of these different regulations 

21 substitute for each other, to fulfill the 

22 requirement? 

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1 A No, sir. 

2 Q Or lS each one necessary to fulfill 

3 the requirement? 

4 A Each one is necessary to maintain 

5 currency under 135. 

6 MR. BERMAN: Your Honor, I would like 

7 to hand the witness a copy of the regulations. 

8 May I approach to hand him the 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you have a -- is 

10 this, basically, an exhibit, or is it something 

11 that you want him to review, to refresh his 

12 recollection, what is the purpose of this? 

13 MR. BERMAN: Something that he could 

14 refer to in his testimony. I'm going to be asking 

15 him a question about one of the FARs, at least 

16 one of the FARs. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Well, I'm 

18 going to ask you to wait until he demonstrates a 

19 need to look at the regulations. And then if you 

20 have a copy to give to Mr. Dobitsch, that would 

21 be helpful. 

22 You may continue. 

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1 BY MR. BERMAN: 

2 Q Mr. Soudas, are you familiar with 

3 Federal Aviation Regulation 135.293 (c)? 

4 A Yes, slr. 

5 Q And what, to your understanding, does 

6 that state? 

7 A The verbiage in that regulation states 

8 that the 297 check may be substituted for the 

9 flight portion of the 2938 check. 

10 Q Does the can the 135.297 

11 proficiency check, under that regulation, 

12 135.293C satisfy the requirement for 135.293A? 

13 A No, sir. 

14 Q And what is -- and why is that? 

15 A The 135.293 lS, basically, broke up 

16 into two areas regarding flight currency. The A 

17 section, which is the knowledge of oral check, 

18 and the B section, which is the flight check. 

19 So 135.297 I'm sorry, 135.293 (c), 

20 references 135.297 in terms of 297 satisfying the 

21 flight portion of 293. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

However, it does not provide for 

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1 satisfying the knowledge portion of 293A. 

2 Q Okay. And does taking the 135.297 

3 proficiency check, can that ever satisfy the 

4 requirement for 135.299? 

5 A No, sir. 

6 Q And how are the checks different than 

7 these regulations, 135.297 and 135.299? 

8 A So 135.297 is a different set of 

9 testing parameters in terms of what is covered. 

10 Under the 135.297 flight check, it references 

11 flight maneuvers and instrument approaches, 

12 precision v non-precision. 

13 135.299 references what is known as a 

14 line check. A line check is when the pilot flies 

15 the aircraft to another airport, representative 

16 of landing over a civil airway route. 

17 Q During the course of your career, with 

18 the Allentown FSDO have you had dealings with a 

19 company called Endless Mountains Air? 

20 A Yes, sir, I have. 

21 Q And in what capacity? 

22 A From March of 2011, until March of 

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1 2012, I was assigned as the principal operations 

2 inspector. 

3 Q For Endless Mountains Air? 

4 A Yes, sir, for Endless Mountains Air. 

5 Q A principal operations inspector is 

6 also known as a POI? 

7 A Correct, Slr. 

8 Q And what are the duties of a POI? 

9 A The duties of the POI are to provide 

10 certification management for the certificate 

11 holder. In doing so commonly the tasks are, 

12 performing check rides for the operator's pilots. 

13 

14 We also are assigned, what is called, 

15 the work program, which is general surveillance, 

16 we have to go out and do periodic record checks 

17 on the certificate holder's records. 

18 Q Could you describe what Endless 

19 Mountains Air is, to your knowledge? 

20 A Yes, sir. Endless Mountains Air is a 

21 certificated 135 operator, and the status of 

22 their certificate is what is known as a single 

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1 pilot operator. 

2 Meaning that they can hire one pilot, 

3 and that one pilot has to be a named pilot. 

4 They, also, have one aircraft under certificate, 

5 which is a single engine Cirrus, currently. 

6 Q Who is their pilot? 

7 A Their pilot is, now, and has been, 

8 Randy Palmer. 

9 Q And he was their pilot in 2011? 

10 A Correct, sir. 

11 Q And who ran, to your knowledge, who 

12 ran the business end of Endless Mountains Air? 

13 A Mr. Dobitsch is the president, and 

14 agent for service. 

15 Q And he did so back in 2011? 

16 A Yes, sir. 

17 Q Suppose, does it necessarily have to 

18 be Randy Palmer who flies the planes, or the 

19 airplane, for Endless Mountains Air? 

20 

21 

22 

A No, sir. At any time a certificate 

holder can change pilots. And that, frequently, 

does occur. 

(202) 234-4433 

What has to happen, then, is a 

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1 flight check be administered to the pilot, and 

2 also a change to their OPS Specs, when that 

3 person becomes a named pilot for that 

4 certificate. 

5 Q And were you the reporting inspector 

6 for this case, that brings us here today? 

7 A Yes, Slr. 

8 Q And you investigated the matter? 

9 A Yes, Slr. 

10 Q And there lS -- it is established, in 

11 the record, that on September 23rd, 2011, to 

12 October Bth, 2011, Endless Mountains Air operated 

13 an SR2 0 aircraft November 624, Charlie, Papa 

14 aircraft, in six flights, under the rules of Part 

15 13 5 . 

16 And Mr. Randy Palmer was the pilot for 

17 each of these flights. Do you agree with that 

18 statement? 

19 A I agree with that statement, sir. 

20 Q And during the course of your 

21 investigation, did you review the pilot, Mr. 

22 Palmer, to determine whether when he operated 

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1 those flights, he was up to date with his 

2 required examinations? 

3 A That is correct, sir. I did review 

4 those records. 

5 Q Which specific records did you 

6 examine? 

7 A Duringscheduledroutinesurveillance, 

8 on December 28th, of 2011, I met with Mr. 

9 Dobitsch on the base of operations, which is at 

10 Endless Mountains Air, airport, in Factoryville, 

11 PA. 

12 And what he presented to me were load 

13 manifests, which are required, for a passenger 

14 carrylng operation, under 135. 

15 What he presented to me was evidence 

16 that there were Slx flights done between 

17 September and October. Also two documents that 

18 he provided were Mr. Palmer's flight and duty 

19 times for the month of October, and September, 

20 which indicated 135 flights had been done during 

21 those two months. 

22 Q And did you review forms called 8410-

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1 3? 

2 A Yes, I did, sir. 

3 Q And what are those? 

4 A 8410-3 forms are forms that the Agency 

5 uses when they conduct a 135 flight test, or oral 

6 portion. Mr. Dobitsch did have those records. 

7 And what was indicated on those was the flights 

8 that had taken place had lapsed in currency, and 

9 would have lapsed in currency on September 1st of 

10 2010, excuse me, 2011. 

11 Q I just want to backtrack, something I 

12 should have asked before. But are you familiar 

13 with the concept of base month, and grace month, 

14 when it comes to currency requirements for Part 

15 135 pilots? 

16 A Yes, I am, Slr. 

17 Q Can you explain? 

18 A Yes, sir. That falls under 135.301. 

19 The grace month/base month, grace month 

20 late/grace month early concept is as such. 

21 

22 

If a pilot were to take all of his 

required check rides in say, 

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1 January, a check that he would also need would be 

2 a six month recurrent check, which would take 

3 place in July. 

4 He could take that check in June, any 

5 time during July, or any time during August. It 

6 is a 30 day window prior to your base month, and 

7 a 30 day window late of your grace month. 

8 Q So if it is a 12 month requirement, 

9 what would the grace month --

10 A The same latitude would apply to, once 

11 again using that example of January, if the pilot 

12 were due in the month of January, that would be 

13 his base month, for his 12 month checks. 

14 He could dome in as early as December 

15 1st, and as late as February 28th or, possibly, 

16 29th. 

17 MR. BERMAN: Your Honor, I have 

18 exhibits I would like to offer. I just want to 

19 make sure that I have the protocol correct. 

20 The 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I presume that you've 

22 exchanged those exhibits with Mr. Dobitsch, 

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1 already, so he has a copy? 

2 MR. BERMAN: That is correct. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And we need to have 

4 two copies for the court reporter, and one for 

5 me. 

6 MR. BERMAN: Right. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And then you can give 

8 your extra to the witness to -- actually, that is 

9 incorrect. One to the court reporter, one to me, 

10 one to the witness, but the ones to the witness, 

11 that are admitted, will go to the court reporter, 

12 ultimately. 

13 Yes, we will do that. 

14 MR. BERMAN: Thank you. I'd like to 

15 have well, it is already marked for 

16 identification, but I am going to show the 

17 witness exhibits C-2 and C-3. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And if you would be 

19 so kind as to approach the witness, and I will 

20 ask the court reporter to hand up my copy to me. 

21 I will note that the court reporter 

22 has handed up, to me, exhibit C-2 and C-3. We 

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1 actually have them marked already, thank you. 

2 And these exhibits have also been 

3 handed to the witness. Mr. Berman, do you have a 

4 copy for the court reporter? 

5 MR. BERMAN: Okay. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I will note that Mr. 

7 Berman is handing a copy to the court reporter as 

8 well. Thank you, sir. 

9 BY MR. BERMAN: 

10 Q Mr. Soudas, you have been handed what 

11 is marked as exhibits C-2 and C-3. 

12 Could you identify what exhibit C-2 

13 is? 

14 A Exhibit C-2 is an 8410-3 form. 

15 Q For Randy Palmer? 

16 A Yes, sir. It is for Randy Palmer. 

17 Q And what about exhibit C-3? 

18 A Exhibit C-3 is the same document, for 

19 Mr. Palmer, an 8410-3 form. However, it has a 

20 different date than exhibit C-2. 

21 Q 

22 A 

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Which date was that? 

Exhibit C-3 is dated July 7th, 2010. 

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1 Q And Exhibit C-2 is dated July 22nd, 

2 2010? 

3 A Correct, sir. 

4 MR. BERMAN: I offer what is marked as 

5 exhibit C-2 and C-3 into evidence. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, do you 

7 have any objection to the admission request on 

8 exhibit C-2? 

9 MR. DOBITSCH: No, I do not. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit C-2 is, 

11 hereby, admitted. 

12 (The document referred to, 

13 having been previously 

14 marked for identification as 

15 Complainant Exhibit C-2 is 

16 admitted in evidence.) 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: What about Exhibit C18 3? Any objection? 

19 

20 

21 admitted. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. DOBITSCH: No. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit C-3 is hereby 

(The document referred to, 

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1 having been previously 

2 marked for identification as 

3 Complainant Exhibit C-3 is 

4 admitted ln evidence.) 

5 BY MR. BERMAN: 

6 Q Mr. Soudas, with respect to Exhibit c7 3, does this reflect that Mr. Palmer, fulfilling 

8 the requirements of any of the Part 135, 

9 examinations for Part 135 pilots? 

10 A Yes, it does sir. 

11 Q And what does it reflect? 

12 A It reflects that on July 7th, 2010 Mr. 

13 Palmer successfully completed 135.293A 

14 examination conducted by Mr. Robert Ference. 

15 Q And Robert Ference is an FAA 

16 inspector? 

17 A Yes, sir. 

18 Q He is here today? 

19 A He lS, sir. 

20 Q And I know that on the left-hand, 

21 where it says under left hand column of 

22 exhibit C-3, under the column pre-flight, the 

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1 word oral is circled. 

2 What does that mean to you? 

3 A 135.293A check is the knowledge 

4 portion of the 293 check. And it can be 

5 conducted as either a written test or an oral 

6 question and answer testing. 

7 What was done, that day, was that the 

8 test was performed in an oral testing manner. 

9 Q And the remarks there, and could you 

10 it says new base month oral completed. 

11 A Correct, sir. 

12 Q What does that mean to you? 

13 A What that means, to me, is that more 

14 than likely Mr. Palmer, or perhaps for a variety 

15 of reasons, went non-current, and was re16 establishing his currency. 

17 And it was noted that now is a new 

18 base mont for Mr. Palmer. 

19 Q I refer your attention to Exhibit C-2. 

20 And does this reflect Mr. Palmer fulfilling the 

21 requirements of Part 135 regulations for currency 

22 examinations for Part 135 pilots? 

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1 A Correct, sir. 

2 Q And if he already had taken these 

3 examinations on July 7th, 2010, what would be the 

4 purpose of the July 22nd, 2010? 

5 A What occurred on July 7th was only the 

6 oral portion. What occurred, approximately two 

7 weeks later, on July 22nd, was the remaining 

8 items to establish currency, the 135.293B, which 

9 is the flight portion, the 135.299, which is the 

10 line check, the 135-297, also an examination of 

11 his use of the auto pilot. 

12 So what happened here was the flight 

13 portion of the test took place, which isn't 

14 uncommon, to have dates split like this, perhaps 

15 there was a weather issue, or mechanical issue, 

16 and the couldn't complete all the tasks on July 

17 7th. 

18 So they rescheduled and completed 

19 them, approximately, two weeks later. 

20 Q So would it be fair to say that as of 

21 July 22nd, 2010, Mr. Palmer was current with 

22 respect to requirements of 135.293 and 135.297, 

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1 and 135.299? 

2 A That is correct, sir. 

3 Q And when would he have been next due 

4 for a 135.293 examination? 

5 A The next 135.293 examination would be 

6 due, as indicated on the form, in July of '11. 

7 Q What about the grace month? 

8 A The grace month would allow Mr. Palmer 

9 to remain current under 135.293 until the last 

10 day of July-- I'm sorry, last day of August of 

11 2010. 

12 Q Did you mean to say 2011? 

13 A I'm sorry, 2011, excuse me. 

14 Q And when would he be next due for a 

15 135.299 examination? 

16 A That date would be the same. It would 

17 be July of 2011, grace month late, the last day 

18 of August 2011. 

19 Q In reviewing Mr. Palmer's 8410-3 

20 forms, did you find that the -- was any record of 

21 compliance with the examination requirements of 

22 either 135.293 or 135.299, between July 22nd, 

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1 2010 and the time that he conducted the flights 

2 in September and October of 2011? 

3 A No, sir. 

4 Q Were there any intervening 8410-3s, at 

5 all? 

6 A The only other subsequent 8410-3 form, 

7 that was present, was a 135.297 check, that was 

8 taken on April 18th, of 2011. 

9 Q Were there any other 8410-3s? 

10 A No, sir. 

11 Q Well, was the --

12 MR. BERMAN: I'd like to hand the 

13 well, this is an exhibit that was not included ln 

14 the Agency's pre-hearing submissions, but it was 

15 included in Respondent's Pre-Hearing submissions. 

16 And this is an 8410-3 dated April 

17 18th, 2011. I'd like to show this to the 

18 witness. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Are you asking for it 

20 to be marked as an exhibit, are you marking it as 

21 an exhibit? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. BERMAN: I already marked it as 

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1 Exhibit C-8. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. And which of 

3 those exhibits was it marked as Respondent's 

4 Exhibit, just so that the Court knows? 

5 MR. BERMAN: I believe it is Exhibit 

6 A. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. Dobitsch, 

8 you have a copy of that? 

9 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If you would bring up 

11 your coples, Mr. Berman, that would be great. 

12 I note that the court reporter is 

13 handing me a copy of Exhibit C-8. 

14 BY MR. BERMAN: 

15 Q Mr. Soudas, I have just handed you 

16 what lS marked as Exhibit C-8. Can you identify 

17 this document? 

18 A Yes, sir. This lS an 8410-3 form 

19 dated April 18th, 2011, with the name of the 

20 airman, Randy Palmer. 

21 Q And this lS something that you 

22 reviewed during the investigation? 

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1 A Yes, sir. 

2 MR. BERMAN: I offer what is marked as 

3 Exhibit C-8 into evidence. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, there 

5 has been a motion to admit Exhibit C-8. Do you 

6 have any objection? 

7 MR. DOBITSCH: No objection, Your 

8 Honor. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit C-8 is, 

10 hereby, admitted. 

11 (The document referred to, 

12 having been previously 

13 marked for identification as 

14 Complainant Exhibit C-8 is 

15 admitted in evidence.) 

16 BY MR. BERMAN: 

17 Q Mr. Soudas, exhibit c- 8 reflect a 

18 check on April 18th, 2011, is that 

19 A 

20 Q 

21 satisfy? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

That is correct, sir. 

And which regulation does that 

This would satisfy 135.297. 

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1 Q Would this have been a substitute for 

2 requirement of 135.293A? 

3 A No sir. 

4 Q Would it have been a substitute for 

5 requirement 135.299? 

6 A No, sir. 

7 Q Do you recall the circumstances behind 

8 this check of April 18th, 2011? 

9 A The circumstances that required the 

10 need for this were, are reflected on exhibit C-2, 

11 on the lower right-hand side, where it says, 

12 satisfactorily demonstrated IFR proficiency, AFR 

13 135.297, expires (6months). 

14 And it is indicated that that would 

15 expire on January of '11. This was the next 

16 flight check Mr. Palmer would have needed to 

17 remain current throughout the year. 

18 He could have taken that test any time 

19 during December, January, or February. The test 

20 was satisfactorily completed on April 18th, 2011. 

21 Q Had he taken a previous unsatisfactory 

22 examination? 

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1 A Yes, sir. 

2 Q And when was that? 

3 A It was February 18th of 2011. 

4 Q And that was in 135.297? 

5 A Yes, Slr. 

6 MR. BERMAN: I'd like to show the 

7 witness what is marked as Exhibit C-9. And, 

8 again, this is another exhibit that was not in 

9 the Agency's Pre-Hearing submission, but was in 

10 the Respondent's Pre-Hearing submissions. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And in terms of 

12 proposed exhibit C-9, can you identify which of 

13 the Respondent's exhibits it correlates to? 

14 MR. BERMAN: I don't see the number, 

15 here. Perhaps Mr. Dobitsch can help me out. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: What is the date of 

17 the exhibit? 

18 MR. DOBITSCH: February 11, 2011. 

19 MR. BERMAN: February 11, 2011. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: That would be 

21 Respondent's Exhibit C, as in cat. Just so that 

22 we are all clear about that. 

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1 I will note that Mr. Berman has 

2 approached the bench and is handing the court 

3 reporter her copy, and the Court's copy of 

4 proposed exhibit C-9. 

5 BY MR. BERMAN: 

6 Q Mr. Soudas, I have just handed you 

7 what is marked as Exhibit C-9. Can you identify 

8 this document? 

9 A Yes, sir. This is an 8410-3 form, 

10 dated February 11th, 2011, with the name of the 

11 airman Randy Palmer. 

12 Q And what does this reflect? 

13 A This is reflective of a 135.297 check. 

14 Q And was -- this is the one that was 

15 unsatisfactory, that you referred to before? 

16 A Yes, sir. 

17 Q All right. 

18 MR. BERMAN: I offer what is marked as 

19 Exhibit C-9 into evidence. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, do you 

21 have any objection? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. DOBITSCH: No objections, Your 

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1 Honor. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit C-9 is hereby 

3 admitted. 

4 (The document referred to, 

5 having been previously 

6 marked for identification as 

7 Complainant Exhibit C-9 was 

8 admitted ln evidence.) 

9 BY MR. BERMAN: 

10 Q Mr. Soudas, so Exhibits C-2, C-3, C-8 

11 and C-9, do these represent the totality of the 

12 8410-3s for Mr. Palmer, for Endless Mountains 

13 Air, during the period between July of 2010 and 

14 October of 2011? 

15 A Yes, Slr. That is correct. 

16 Q During the course of your 

17 investigation, did you write a letter of 

18 investigation to Endless Mountains Air? 

19 A Yes, I did, sir. 

20 MR. BERMAN: I'd like to approach the 

21 witness to show him Exhibit C-4. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: You may. I will note 

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1 that Mr. Berman is handing up, to the Court and 

2 the court reporter, copies of Exhibit C-4. And 

3 the witness has received a copy as well. 

4 BY MR. BERMAN: 

5 Q Mr. Soudas, I've handed you what is 

6 marked as Exhibit C-4. Can you identify this 

7 document? 

8 A Yes, sir. This lS the letter of 

9 investigation dated January 4th, 2012, that I had 

10 sent to Mr. William Dobitsch, of Endless 

11 Mountains Air. 

12 MR. BERMAN: I offer what is marked as 

13 Exhibit C-4 into evidence. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, any 

15 objection? 

16 MR. DOBITSCH: No object ions, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit C-4 is, 

19 hereby, admitted. 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

(The document referred to, 

having been previously 

marked for identification as 

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1 Complainant Exhibit C-4 is 

2 admitted in evidence.) 

3 MR. BERMAN: I'd like to approach the 

4 witness to hand him what is pre-marked as Exhibit 

s c-s. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You may. I will note 

7 Mr. Berman is handing the Court, and the court 

8 reporter, copies of this exhibit. And the 

9 witness has now received his copy as well. 

10 BY MR. BERMAN: 

11 Q Mr. Soudas, I've handed you what is 

12 marked as Exhibit C-5. Can you identify this 

13 document? 

14 A Yes, Slr, I can. This was a letter, in 

15 response, from Mr. Dobitsch, in response to the 

16 Letter of Investigation that I had sent Mr. 

17 Dobitsch of Endless Mountains Air. 

18 And this was, also, his response to 

19 follow-up after the meeting we had at the FSDO. 

20 

21 objection? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, any 

MR. DOBITSCH: No objection, Your 

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1 Honor. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit C-5 is, 

3 hereby, admitted. 

4 (The document referred to, 

5 having been previously 

6 marked for identification as 

7 Complainant Exhibit C- 5 is 

8 admitted ln evidence.) 

9 BY MR. BERMAN: 

10 Q Mr. Soudas, did you, during the course 

11 of your investigation, did you speak to Mr. 

12 Dobitsch, or Mr. Palmer, about the violations 

13 that you discovered? 

14 A Yes, I did, sir. 

15 Q And could you describe what 

16 conversation you had? 

17 A Sure. The first conversation was on 

18 the date that this was discovered, on December 

19 28th, at their location. 

20 Both Mr. Dobitsch and --

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm sorry, sir, 

22 you need a year with that date. 

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1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: December 28th of what 

3 year? 

4 THE WITNESS: December 28th, 2011. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. 

6 THE WITNESS: When this was noticed. 

7 And that took place at their facility. 

8 I was originally talking with Mr. Dobitsch, and 

9 we were trying to ascertain, perhaps more checked 

10 ride forms, to show that Mr. Palmer was current. 

11 A few minutes later Mr. Palmer 

12 arrived. And I queried him as to, perhaps, he 

13 had more checked ride forms, that weren't 

14 present, to show that he was current. And he 

15 responded that he did not. 

16 The next dialogue that we had was at 

17 the Flight Standards District Office on January 

18 18th, when both gentlemen came down for a meeting 

19 in response to the LOI, that they had both 

20 received. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm going to stop 

22 you, again, January 18th of what year, sir? 

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1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, that would be 

2 2012. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you, go ahead. 

4 THE WITNESS: They came to the Flight 

5 Standards District Office to discuss the Letter 

6 of Investigation that they had both received. 

7 BY MR. BERMAN: 

8 Q Mr. Dobitsch and Mr. Palmer? 

9 A Yes, Slr. 

10 Q And do you recall the substance of 

11 that conversation? 

12 A Yes, I do. 

13 Q And what was that? 

14 A The substance of the conversation, in 

15 regard to the violation that had been found, was 

16 that they stated that they were confused, and 

17 they attributed that being a misunderstanding as 

18 to why this had occurred. 

19 Q Did you regard their stated 

20 misunderstanding, of the regulations, to be a 

21 mitigating factors? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

No, sir, I did not. 

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1 Q And why is that? 

2 A Endless Mountains Air has been a 

3 certificated 135 operator since October of 2003. 

4 Mr. Palmer has taken many check rides throughout 

5 that eight year period. 

6 Periodically, throughout the knowledge 

7 portion of 293A, we question folks about that. 

8 Endless Mountains Air also submits a compliance 

9 statement upon its certification as to how they 

10 are golng to comply with all the pertinent 

11 regulations. 

12 They had addressed that ln their 

13 compliance statement, as they would remaln 

14 current, suggesting they have an understanding of 

15 the regulations, and how they apply to their 

16 operation. 

17 Q Are you familiar with the sanction 

18 guidelines set forth in FAA 2150.38)? 

19 A Yes, sir, I am. 

20 Q And what is FAA Order 2150.38? 

21 A That is an FAA order which is used to 

22 assist in the compliance and enforcement program, 

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1 that sets forth the sanctions, policies, and 

2 guidelines. 

3 MR. BERMAN: I'd like to approach the 

4 witness to hand him what is pre-marked as Exhibit 

5 C-7,1 which has six pages. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You may. I will note 

7 counsel lS handing up to the Court, the court 

8 reporter, and the witness, copies of Exhibit C-7. 

9 BY MR. BERMAN: 

10 Q Mr. Soudas, I've just handed you what 

11 lS marked as Exhibit C-7, which contains s1x 

12 pages. 

13 Can you identify this document? 

14 A Yes, sir. These are pages out of the 

15 FAA order 20150.3B. 

16 Q And do they contain information that 

17 is pertinent to establishing the sanction in this 

18 particular case? 

19 A Yes, sir, they do. 

20 MR. BERMAN: I offer what is marked as 

21 Exhibit C-7 into evidence. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, do you 

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1 have any objection? 

2 MR. DOBITSCH: No objection. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit C-7 is, 

4 hereby, admitted. 

5 (The document referred to, 

6 having been previously 

7 marked for identification as 

8 Complainant Exhibit C-7 is 

9 admitted in evidence.) 

10 BY MR. BERMAN: 

11 Q Mr. Soudas, I'm referring your 

12 attention to page 1 of 6, of Exhibit C-7, where 

13 it refers to Part 135 air carriers that can be 

14 designated as group III, or group IV. 

15 Which one would Endless Mountains Air 

16 be? 

17 A Endless Mountains Air fall under group 

18 IV. 

19 Q And why is that? 

20 A As the verbiage on the Group IV 

21 states, sir, each air carrier, or commercial 

22 operator, operating under Part 135 with no more 

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1 than five pilots and no more than four aircraft. 

2 Being a single pilot operator, with 

3 one named pilot, and one aircraft, would qualify 

4 Endless Mountains Air under Group IV. 

5 Q I refer your attention to the last 

6 three pages of this exhibit, exhibit pages 4, 5, 

7 and 6. And where there is a table of recommended 

8 penalties, does the violation, or violations in 

9 this case, fall within any of the categories set 

10 forth, listed on these pages? 

11 A Yes, sir, it does. Just one moment, 

12 please. 

13 (Witness revlews document.) 

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Slr, it does, under 

15 figure B-1-N. 

16 BY MR. BERMAN: 

17 Q 

18 A 

19 Q 

20 A 

21 Q 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

Which page are you looking at? 

Labeled page 6 of 6. 

So figure B-1-N? 

Correct, sir. 

And which specific item, within that? 

The specific item, within that, would 

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1 be Use of Crew Member, Use of Unqualified Crew 

2 Member. 

3 Q And what is the civil penalty 

4 recommended here? 

5 A Under line item 3, use of unqualified 

6 crew member, under civil penalty, would be the 

7 maximum. 

8 Q And why do you say that this would be 

9 the relevant violation in this case? 

10 A This would be the appropriate 

11 violation in this case because, indeed, Mr. 

12 Palmer was operating under 135 when he was not 

13 qualified, as a current 135 pilot. 

14 Q And you are saying he was not 

15 qualified because he wasn't current with respect 

16 to the examination requirements? 

17 A That is correct, sir. 

18 Q I refer your attention to page 3 of 

19 this exhibit. And where there is a different 

20 categories of Group IV violations. 

21 Then can you tell me which one would 

22 apply here? 

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1 A Yes, sir. The appropriate one would 

2 be Group IV, it would be the third line item down 

3 from the top of the page, for violations covered 

4 under 49USC46301 (a) (5) (a) that occurred after 

5 June 15th, 2006. 

6 As indicated, by the previous 

7 statement, the maximum civil penalty would be 

8 4,400 dollars to 11,000 dollars. 

9 Q And what would be the, given that the 

10 range is 4, 400 to 11, 000, what would be the 

11 appropriate number, that you feel, would be 

12 appropriate in this case? 

13 A In this case there were no aggravating 

14 circumstances. It is the Agency's policy, 

15 normally, to take the mid-range of that dollar 

16 amount. 

17 Q When there are mitigating 

18 circumstances? 

19 A No, Slr. 

20 Q So are you saying there were no 

21 aggravating, no particular aggravating or 

22 mitigating circumstances? 

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1 A That is a correct statement, sir. 

2 Q So, can you go on with how you would 

3 calculate the 

4 A Correct. With the dollar figure being 

5 4,400 to 11,000, the Agency's position, normally, 

6 you would take the mid-range. 

7 What was done, was 4,400 dollars was 

8 added to 11,000 dollars, divided by two, came up 

9 with 7,700 dollars, multiplied by 6. 

10 Six was indicative of the six 

11 violations that occurred, to equal a dollar 

12 figure of 46,200 dollars. 

13 Q By six violations are you referring to 

14 the six flights during the --

15 A Correct, sir. The SlX flights that 

16 had occurred. 

17 Q The six flights, involved with Mr. 

18 Palmer, ln September, October 2011, is that 

19 A That is correct, sir. 

20 MR. BERMAN: No further questions. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, do you 

22 have any cross-examination of this witness? 

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1 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, I would. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You may proceed. 

3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

4 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

5 Q Previously Mr. Berman had shown some 

6 exhibits, a number of alrmen 

7 competency/proficiency check forms, to you just 

8 now. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And let's just check 

10 and find out where those exhibits are. Are they 

11 all up at your witness stand? 

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, rna' am, I have 

13 everything that Mr. Berman gave you. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you. 

15 They are still up there before the witness. 

16 MR. DOBITSCH: Thank you. 

17 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

18 Q They were numbered C-2 and C-3. They 

19 were 293, pertaining to a 293 and a 299, and 297 

20 check ride, 401 check rides? 

21 A 

22 of me. 

(202) 234-4433 

Yes, sir. I have C-2 and C-3 in front 

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1 Q And they were dated two different 

2 dates in July of 2010? 

3 A That is correct, sir. 

4 Q I'd also like to refer to Exhibit C-8, 

5 which is another airman competency check ride, 

6 that was performed by Mr. Palmer, on April 18th, 

7 2011. 

8 A Yes, sir, I have it. 

9 Q Okay. Would you be able to explain to 

10 me, from the way I understand it, these two July 

11 2010 proficiency check forms amount to one 

12 proficiency check under 293, 7 and 9, 299, 

13 correct? 

14 A I'm sorry, could you repeat that, sir? 

15 Q I'm sorry. These two proficiency check 

16 forms, in July of 2010, combined they would, they 

17 satisfied 135.293, 297, and 299? 

18 A That is correct, sir. 

19 Q And then on C-8, the proficiency 

20 check, from April 18th of 2011, this form would 

21 satisfy a 135.297 check at that point? 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

That is correct, slr. 

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1 Q Could you tell me if there were any 

2 substantial differences, when it comes to the 

3 oral and the flight check items on both forms? 

4 A The both forms that you are referring 

5 to, sir, are from July? 

6 Q Yes, the ones from July, versus the 

7 one, the two from July versus the one from April 

8 of 2011. If I -- I guess my question is, if I 

9 combine the oral and the flight check items, on -

10 - yes, between those two separate check rides, 

11 and what is listed on the forms, is there any 

12 substantial difference between those two items? 

13 A Yes, sir. If I'm understanding your 

14 questioning, the questioning being, is there a 

15 difference between the oral for the 293 and a 

16 difference between the oral for the 297? 

17 Q No. What I'm asking is, is there 

18 looking at these forms, items that are 

19 satisfactory, not checked, is there a --

20 My question would be, if I combine the 

21 oral and the flight check from 2010, could I --

22 the items that are checked off on that form, 

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1 would they also-- could I say that all the items 

2 on C-8, from 2011 are also -- are checked on --

3 A No, sir. 

4 Q And can you tell me what the 

5 difference, between the oral and the flight 

6 check, the differences are on the forms? 

7 A There is an oral portion to the 

8 135.297. There is an oral portion to the 135.293. 

9 The oral portion, of the 135.297, primarily is 

10 just a test of the individual's knowledge of the 

11 aircraft, emergency procedures, power plant, 

12 things regarding the aircraft. 

13 The knowledge check, the oral portion 

14 on the 293A is a much broader scope. It is the 

15 regulations, as they apply to the operator, the 

16 regulations of Part 61, 91, 135, certificate 

17 holder's OPS SPECS, certificate holder's manual, 

18 if they have one, weather, meteorology, wind 

19 shear escape maneuvers, things of that nature. 

20 It is a much more broader oral than 

21 that of the 135.297. 

22 Q Okay, so what you are saying is that 

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1 the oral would be broader, but the flight check 

2 items would be similar, or the same, as per reg? 

3 A As per reg, there is one more approach 

4 that is done on the 293, typically, versus the 

5 2 97. 

6 Q Okay. I guess, for the record, I see 

7 three approaches on both of them. Okay, on both 

8 the --

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Did you want to ask 

10 the witness about those? 

11 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, sure, thank you, 

12 Your Honor. 

13 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

14 Q Like I had just mentioned, it would 

15 appear, lS there a reason why there are the same 

16 number of approaches on both of these flight 

17 checks? 

18 A There lS what is required is a 

19 preClSlOn approach, and two non-precision 

20 approaches. And on the yearly check, whereas if 

21 you look at the bottom, of the right hand column, 

22 of any of the forms, where it says use of 

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1 autopilot is/is not authorized. 

2 You will note that on the April 18th, 

3 2011 form that test was not performed, as 

4 evidenced by there being no date in that block. 

5 Whereas if you were to look at the 

6 8410, labeled Exhibit C-2, dated July 22nd, 

7 referencing the same area of the form, the lower 

8 right side, it states, use of autopilot is/is not 

9 authorized. 

10 That is a 12 month check. It has a 

11 date in there of 7-11. So one of those 

12 approaches are what we call a coupled approach. 

13 Being a single pilot operator, having 

14 authorization for the use of autopilot, in lieu 

15 of second in command, as required to be checked. 

16 Q Earlier, I believe you had said, that 

17 during any airmen competency/proficiency flight 

18 checks, that you had given to Mr. Palmer, you've 

19 -- I'm asking -- I actually want to ask. 

20 Have you ever questionEd him on the 

21 use, the understanding of regulations 135.293, 

22 279, and 299? 

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1 A Well, sure. That is part of the oral 

2 questioning, the pertinent 135 regs. 

3 Q Are you sure of that? 

4 A Am I sure of what, sir? 

5 Q That you have done that in the past 

6 with Mr. Palmer? 

7 A I --

8 Q As part of your check with the airman 

9 check, with Mr. Palmer? 

10 A Sure, that is as simple as asking the 

11 pilot when are due for your next check ride, 

12 where are you at, be grace month, base month, it 

13 is as simple as that. 

14 Q Is there, have you ever asked me 

15 those, the application of these 

16 A No, I never spoke with you on those 

17 matters, sir. 

18 Q Is there a reason why the FAA doesn't 

19 question the operator of the charter company, on 

20 the requirements of its pilots? 

21 A Well, sir, there is a vetting process 

22 that occurs, early in the certification process. 

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1 I was not with the FAA, the inspector handling 

2 your certification at that time. 

3 But what an operator does do is submit 

4 a compliance statement declaring that they 

5 understand the regulations, and how they intend 

6 to comply with them. 

7 Q Is there a reason why a pilot would go 

8 through an oral exam on a regular basis, and an 

9 operator would not? 

10 A I'm sorry, sir? 

11 Q On a regular basis it seems that a 

12 pilot, a charter pilot, would have to submit to 

13 an oral exam on, effectively, a six month basis. 

14 There is no requirement for a charter 

15 operator, such as myself? 

16 A No, sir. 

17 Q So the FAA never does verify, or 

18 check, an operator's knowledge on those three 

19 regulations? 

20 A As I said, earlier, the operator 

21 submits a compliance statement, which how they 

22 intend to comply with the regulations. 

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1 Q Prior to these violations have I ever 

2 had any deficiencies, or violations, prior to 

3 this? 

4 A No, sir. 

5 MR. DOBITSCH: Is it okay, Your Honor, 

6 for me to just put a hypothetical out there? 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Sure. 

8 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

9 Q If a charter pilot ever contacted, I 

10 guess a company that you are responsible for 

11 monitoring, and inspect and do check rides; if a 

12 pilot ever called you and had asked for any kind 

13 of guidance as to when a check ride was due, what 

14 would you do in that case? 

15 A Well, that does occur from time to 

16 time. And, first and foremost, what we do is 

17 direct the person asking the question, to contact 

18 their principal operations inspector. 

19 JUDGESULLIVAN: I'msorry, sir, could 

20 you repeat that? 

21 THE WITNESS: Yes. That does happen 

22 from time to time. And the first thing we would 

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1 do is direct the individual to contact their 

2 principal operations inspector, and review the 

3 records, and make sure that we are all looking at 

4 the same set of papers. 

5 Documents that you have, that we have, 

6 so we can compare them, and speak intelligently 

7 about it, and come up with the data of what you 

8 need. 

9 MR. DOBITSCH: No more questions, Your 

10 Honor. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Mr. 

12 Berman, do you have any redirect? 

13 MR. BERMAN: No, I don't, Your Honor. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I have one or two 

15 questions if I may, sir? 

16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, then, I will 

18 give both parties an opportunity to ask 

19 additional questions, if they need to. 

20 You indicated, in your early direct 

21 testimony, that a certificate holder can change 

22 pilots, on occasion. 

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1 Do you recall that testimony? 

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Can you describe, 

4 exactly, how that would occur, and how much time 

5 it takes, and how much effort if a pilot needs to 

6 be changed, for a small business, such as the 

7 Respondent's? 

8 THE WITNESS: It would not take very 

9 much time, at all, on the Agency's behalf. On the 

10 operator, he would have to have a person who is 

11 trained, and submit to us that he wishes to make 

12 a change. 

13 In terms of time they could call us, 

14 basically, what we are going to do is schedule a 

15 check ride for the person, and a lot of the items 

16 that we just discussed. 

17 But it is a very, relatively, short 

18 turn around time. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: When you say 

20 relatively short, what does that mean to you? 

21 THE WITNESS: It could be as, 

22 dependent upon work schedule, it could be, if 

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1 initial contact on a Monday, we could have it 

2 done by the end of the week. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And that is provided 

4 that weather conditions would allow? 

5 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Once an operator 

7 changes a pilot, is it typical to do that on a 

8 temporary basis, a short term basis, or only for 

9 a long term basis? What has your experience 

10 been? 

11 THE WITNESS: My experience on that is 

12 that it varies from company to company, based 

13 upon the type of equipment they have, and what 

14 their workload is. 

15 Typically it could be short term, if 

16 someone had a medical issue, perhaps, and they 

17 needed to get another pilot in there. 

18 Or somebody moved on, and they need to 

19 get someone in there permanently. It is somewhat 

20 of a broad brush. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You indicated, in 

22 your direct testimony, that in looking at exhibit 

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1 c- 9, 

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: in the remarks 

4 section, which is at the bottom of the right hand 

5 side of the page, of this one page ex-husband. 

6 That Mr. Palmer's grace month was 

7 late. If his due date was January of 2011, and 

8 the date of the check was February of 2011, isn't 

9 that within the grace period, that you described 

10 earlier, one month early, one month late? 

11 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, ma'am. 

12 There is nothing contrary to regulations about 

13 when this was conducted. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So why would your 

15 form, that is identified as C-9, indicate in the 

16 remarks section, that the grace month was late, 

17 if it was not late? 

18 THE WITNESS: Well, there again, that 

19 is an effort that we make -- let me back up and 

20 say this. When we complete a check ride, 

21 regardless of the outcome, we provide a copy of 

22 this to the operator as well. 

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1 We keep one for our records. This is 

2 just further validation, in an effort to keep 

3 folks in line with their due dates, just a 

4 general note saying you are a grace month late. 

5 We didn't re-establish a grace month, 

6 here, in February. You are due in January. This 

7 is just a reminder in the document that we were 

8 exercising 135.301. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Why would it be late 

10 if the grace month is allowed? 

11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Oh, we --

12 that is just the way we reference it. You can 

13 say grace month early, grace month late. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you. You 

15 indicated, in your direct testimony, when you 

16 were talking about page 3 of exhibit C-7, that 

17 there was neither aggravation, or mitigation in 

18 this particular case. 

19 Do you recall that testimony? 

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, ma'am. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: What kind of 

22 mitigating factors did you consider, if any? 

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1 THE WITNESS: There were none, ma'am. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: When you say there 

3 were none, does that mean you considered none, or 

4 that you reviewed all mitigating factors that are 

5 allowed under Exhibit C-7, and found none? 

6 THE WITNESS: That is a correct 

7 statement, ma'am. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I gave you an 

9 option. So tell me which option you are 

10 choosing. 

11 THE WITNESS: Well, it would be 

12 everything that we had reviewed did not raise to 

13 a level they consider to be mitigating, in this 

14 matter. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Can you give an 

16 example, of what you reviewed, that you did not 

17 consider as a mitigating factor? 

18 THE WITNESS: Two items, that the 

19 Defendants offered, was that they were confused. 

20 And that, that contributed to their 

21 misunderstanding. 

22 I didn't feel that was the case, gl ven 

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1 the history of the company, and the level of 

2 experience that the pilot had. 

3 They also offered that they had 

4 reached out to Inspector Ference, to discuss 

5 this. I was not privy to that conversation. 

6 I believe Inspector Ference referred 

7 them to me. However, what they did not do was 

8 follow-up with any other inspectors, myself being 

9 the principal, send in emails, contact our 

10 management. 

11 They just continued on, even with the 

12 supposed confusion. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Anything else that 

14 you would like to add, to your testimony, about 

15 this particular issue of mitigation? 

16 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. Berman, 

18 starting with you, do you have any additional sur 

19 direct, based on the Court's enquiry? 

20 MR. BERMAN: No, I don't. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, based 

22 on the Court's enquiry, do you have any sur 

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1 cross? 

2 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, just one question. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You may. 

4 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

5 Q You just mentioned that Endless 

6 Mountains Air, and Mr. Palmer, didn't follow up 

7 beyond Mr. Ference for information, for guidance 

8 on whether a check ride was due, or not, for Mr. 

9 Palmer. 

10 Is it customary that a charter 

11 operator would have to go to multiple inspectors 

12 to ascertain whether they were doing something 

13 right or wrong? 

14 A Well, sir, I can't attest to what the 

15 conversation took place between yourself and Mr. 

16 Ference. But I would believe that he would have 

17 referred you to me, the principal. 

18 I knew nothing of any reaching out, 

19 that your company did, until this matter was 

20 brought to you. 

21 Q Did Mr. Ference reach out to you, at 

22 all, to discuss --

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1 A Not that I recall. 

2 Q Okay, thank you. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let's see, okay. 

4 Mister -- is it Soudas? 

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you very much 

7 for your testimony. 

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: It appears to be 

10 complete. 

11 If you leave all the exhibits up on 

12 the witness chair, that would be great. 

13 THE WITNESS: Sure, ma'am. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And you are, hereby, 

15 excused. 

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: It is 10:15 and it 

18 looks like it is a perfect time to take a quick 

19 break, for about ten minutes. 

20 So why don't we have everybody return 

21 to the courtroom at 10:25, and we can get 

22 started, again, with the FAA's second witness? 

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1 We are off the record, and adjourned 

2 for ten minutes. 

3 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

4 went off the record at 10:15 a.m. and 

5 went back on the record at 10:30 a.m.) 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. We are back on 

7 the record in the matter of Endless Mountains 

8 Air, Inc., docket number FAA-2013-0848. 

9 We have reconvened after a brief 

10 mornlng recess. All parties, previously 

11 identified, have returned to the courtroom, and 

12 counsel and Mr. Dobi tsch are re-seated at counsel 

13 table. 

14 When we broke for our morning recess 

15 the FAA had finished presenting its first 

16 witness. 

17 Mr. Berman, are you prepared to 

18 present any more testimony? 

19 

20 

21 call next? 

22 

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MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Who would you like to 

MR. BERMAN: The Agency calls Robert 

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1 Ference. 

2 Whereupon, 

3 ROBERT FERENCE 

4 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 

5 Complainant and, having been duly sworn, assumed 

6 the witness stand was examined and testified as 

7 follows: 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Please take a seat. 

9 When you are comfortable, please state your name 

10 and spell your last name for the record. 

11 THE WITNESS: Sure. My name is Robert 

12 Ference, F-E-R-E-N-C-E. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Counsel, 

14 you may enquire. 

15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

16 BY MR. BERMAN: 

17 Q Mr. Ference, what is your occupation? 

18 A I'm a principal operations inspector 

19 for the Federal Aviation Administration. 

20 Q 

21 A 

22 Q 

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Which facility? 

Allentown, Pennsylvania. 

And for how long have you been this? 

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1 A For 18 years. 

2 Q And have you ever had any dealings 

3 with Endless Mountains Air? 

4 A I have. 

5 Q In what capacity? 

6 A I was their principal operations 

7 inspector, prior to Inspector Soudas taking over 

8 as a principal operations inspector for Endless 

9 Mountains Air. 

10 Q And was that in --

11 A That was prior to, I think, 2010 or 

12 2011' I'm really not sure on that, that 

13 particular date. 

14 Q Did you ever have any discussions with 

15 Endless Mountains Air about their understanding 

16 of the requirements under 135.293, 297, and 299? 

17 A Yes, I did, make an enquiry in regard 

18 to the forms, of when the checks were done. At 

19 that time I did tell them that, without having 

20 the documentation in front of me, I couldn't 

21 really speak to the pertinent information that 

22 they were looking to ascertain. 

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1 Q When did this conversation take place? 

2 A It was, I recollect, I think it was in 

3 January. 

4 Q Of? 

5 A Of 20 I would have to look at, 

6 2011, I think it was in that time, sir. 

7 Q Was it around the time frame of these 

8 violations we have been 

9 A Yes, sir. 

10 Q -- discussing today? 

11 A Yes, sir, it was. 

12 Q And you said that you need to see 

13 their documentation, is that your testimony? 

14 A That is correct, sir. 

15 Q And did they produce their 

16 A No, they didn't 

17 Q Excuse me. 

18 A Sorry. 

19 Q Did they produce their documentation 

20 that you requested? 

21 A 

22 Q 

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No, sir, they did not. 

Did they ever get back to you after 

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1 that? 

2 A No, it was one phone call that they 

3 placed to us. 

4 MR. BERMAN: I have no further 

5 questions. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Mr. 

7 Dobitsch, do you have any cross-examination? 

8 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, I do, Your Honor. 

9 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

10 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

11 Q Mr. Ference, on August 29th of 2011, 

12 that was the date, I believe, that Mr. Palmer had 

13 given you a call and a question regarding these 

14 airmen competency and proficiency checks, is that 

15 correct? 

16 A I don't recollect that date. But if 

17 that is the date that you are stating, I would 

18 agree to it. 

19 Q Okay. We know that the conversation 

20 had taken place between you two. And did you 

21 provide any guidance to Mr. Palmer? 

22 A Without having the documentation, ln 

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1 front of me, I couldn't provide Mr. Palmer with 

2 any documentation that I would, basically, want 

3 to give him any type of false information, 

4 without discussing that, with the principal 

5 operations inspector, nor seeing the 8410s as 

6 issued to Mr. Palmer. 

7 Q Does the FSDO keep copies of the 

8 A We do keep a copy, okay? What is 

9 provided to the operator, at the time of the 

10 check ride, is we provide that operator with two 

11 copies. One for his records, and one for the 

12 operator's records. 

13 That is something that the pilot 

14 should present back to the operator, for the 

15 operator's records, and the pilot's records 

16 himself. 

17 Q 

18 copy? 

19 A 

20 Q 

21 A 

22 Q 

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Okay. But the FSDO does not keep a 

We do keep a copy. 

You do keep a copy? 

We do keep a copy, yes, sir. 

Okay. Is that copy accessible to you? 

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1 A It is accessible. We do keep, what do 

2 you call it, records for the operator. 

3 Q Was there any particular reason why 

4 you didn't go get that copy to --

5 A We have a copy present. 

6 Q So you did have the copy present, 

7 during your conversation? 

8 A We have a copy. But, in order to 

9 compare copies, we would want to ascertain that 

10 the copies that I have, match what the operator 

11 has. 

12 Q Did you ask Mr. Palmer to send you a 

13 copy? 

14 A I asked Mr. Palmer to present copies. 

15 Q And -- okay. So when he looked for 

16 guidance, when he asked for guidance, you did not 

17 provide any guidance because, what you are 

18 saying, is that he did not produce --

19 A No, sir, what I did say is that I did 

20 provide him with guidance saying to bring his 

21 coples down to the FSDO, so that we compare his 

22 copies with our copies, that we have on file. 

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1 Q Is that a cus,tomary way of handling an 

2 enquiry? 

3 A Absolutely. 

4 Q That the pilot would have to bring 

5 down the copy that he has? 

6 A Absolutely. 

7 Q Would it have been possible for you to 

8 compare copies over the telephone, during the 

9 conversation? 

10 A Without seeing the copies, in 

11 question, to make sure that what is checked on 

12 the copy that we have, in our presence, I would 

13 not make any type of determination. 

14 Q In the normal course of a charter, 

15 actually, just aviation in general, and a charter 

16 operator, is there a certain level of trust given 

17 to the operators and pilots? 

18 A We try to deal with a trust between 

19 the principals and the charter operators, 

20 absolutely. 

21 Q Now, lS there a particular reason why, 

22 it appears to me there is a particular, there 

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1 seems to be a lack of trust, in this particular 

2 case, where a pilot, or a charter operator, would 

3 call you up and ask for some guidance, based on a 

4 form that he has in front of him. 

5 That it appears that the FSDO also has 

6 in front of them. Why, in this case, would there 

7 be a lack of trust, that the form that you have, 

8 would have in your possession, is different than 

9 the form, that the pilot, or the charter operator 

10 would have? 

11 A I would say it was never a lack of 

12 trust. I think what we look at is to make sure 

13 that the comparison of copies, that we are 

14 looking at, is what we have in front of us, as 

15 the operators looking through them. 

16 As you look at the 84-30 form, there 

17 are different checks, different places, to 

18 annotate different types of checks. 

19 So what we are looking at is the form 

20 to match exactly what we are looking at, so that 

21 we could provide that operator with the correct 

22 guidance. 

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1 Q But if you needed the operator to send 

2 you the form, before you would want to give any 

3 kind of guidance, that would imply, to me, a lack 

4 of trust. 

5 A No, sir. It is just basically looking 

6 at the same type of documentation, that you have 

7 in front of you, that we are comparing item for 

8 i tern. 

9 Q Is there any reason why, during that 

10 phone conversation, you could not have compared 

11 item for item, with the form in front of you, to 

12 say, these boxes are checked on my form, and this 

13 box isn't? 

14 A With different principal operations 

15 inspectors, possibly conducting different rides, 

16 I like to look at the forms to look at the 

17 comparison, prior to making any statement. 

18 MR. DOBITSCH: No further questions. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Mr. 

20 Berman, do you have any redirect? 

21 

22 

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MR. BERMAN: No, I don't. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: I have a question or 

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1 two, for you, sir. 

2 THE WITNESS: Sure. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: As I understand it, 

4 you were not the principal officer for the 

5 Respondent at the time that you received the 

6 phone call? 

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And is it typical, in 

9 your office, to basically rotate phone calls 

10 between the inspectors, so that you meet the 

11 needs of your constituents, or do you refer phone 

12 calls to the inspector that is assigned to the 

13 charter operator? 

14 THE WITNESS: We try to accommodate 

15 calls as they are presenting to us. If there is 

16 a challenging call, that comes in, dealing with a 

17 specific aspect of what the 135 operator is 

18 asking, we try to refer that to the principal 

19 operations inspector, at the time. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Was this matter 

21 referred, by you, to Inspector Soudas? 

22 

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THE WITNESS: I cannot recollect if I 

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1 did mention that to Mr. Soudas, or not. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If there was a 

3 question, in your mind, about the paperwork that 

4 was in your office being concurrent with the 

5 paperwork that Mr. Dobitsch, and Mr. Palmer had 

6 in their hands, why would you not have simply 

7 asked them to fax the copy of their paperwork, to 

8 you, so that you had both in front of you at the 

9 same time? 

10 THE WITNESS: I did ask them to 

11 present it, Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And when you asked 

13 them to present it, did that offer include having 

14 a fax sent to you, or --

15 THE WITNESS: I did not mention any 

16 type of fax at that particular time. I did offer 

17 them the opportunity to present what 

18 documentation they have. 

19 

20 

21 

22 the --

(202) 234-4433 

May I make a statement, too? 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: No. 

THE WITNESS: At the time when we do 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm going to stop 

2 you. You asked me for a ruling on whether or not 

3 you can make a statement. 

4 What kind of statement do you wish to 

5 

6 THE WITNESS: Just that when we 

7 provide the 84-30 form, which is a check ride 

8 form, we basically make three copies. One we 

9 keep, and we provide two to the operator, one for 

10 the pilot record, and one for the operator. 

11 What the pilot does with those 

12 particular 8430s, afterwards, we have no idea. 

13 That is why we basically look at the fact that we 

14 are looking at, and presenting the documentation, 

15 and comparing item for item. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you, also, do any 

17 kind of business, or guidance advice via email, 

18 email, fax, in person obviously, or alternate 

19 methods of presentation of paperwork? 

20 

21 that. 

22 

(202) 234·4433 

THE WITNESS: Sure, we would look at 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Did you make notes, 

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1 of any kind, regarding this phone call? 

2 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Mr. 

4 Berman, do you have any sur direct of this 

5 witness? 

6 MR. BERMAN: No, I don't. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobi tsch, any sur 

8 cross? 

9 MR. DOBITSCH: I do not. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Tell me, again 

11 sir, how to pronounce your last name? 

12 THE WITNESS: Ference. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Ference. 

14 THE WITNESS: Ference, yes. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. Ference, 

16 thank you very much for your testimony. 

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: It appears to be 

19 complete, you are excused. 

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman, do you 

22 have any other witnesses, or exhibits, that you 

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1 would like to present? 

2 MR. BERMAN: No, I don't. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is the FAA resting at 

4 this time? 

5 MR. BERMAN: Yes, I would just like to 

6 make sure. I don't remember if all my exhibits 

7 were offered and accepted into evidence. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I can tell you that 

9 exhibits C-2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9, were all 

10 discussed, offered, and admitted. 

11 MR. BERMAN: All right. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And C-1 and C-6 were 

13 not discussed or offered. 

14 MR. BERMAN: The Agency rests. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. Dobitsch, 

16 the Agency has rested. At this point you have an 

17 opportunity, if you would so like, to make an 

18 opening statement. 

19 If you don't want to make an opening 

20 statement, that is fine. You still have an 

21 opportunity to make a closing argument. 

22 Do you wish to make an opening at this 

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1 time? 

2 MR. DOBITSCH: At this time, no. No, 

3 thank you, Your Honor. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you have evidence 

5 that you would like to present? And, if so, who 

6 is the first witness that you are planning to 

7 call? 

8 MR. DOBITSCH: My first witness would 

9 be -- well, my only witness would be Mr. Randy 

10 Palmer. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, as I understand 

12 it, you are going to be testifying as well, with 

13 a narrative. 

14 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, I hope --

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So there are 

16 MR. DOBITSCH: Sorry. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: -- two witnesses. 

18 So Mr. Palmer, do you wish to call Mr. 

19 Palmer, now, to the stand? 

20 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, I do. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Palmer, if you 

22 would come over to the witness box and, before 

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1 you are seated, I will swear you in. 

2 Whereupon, 

3 RANDY PALMER 

4 was called as a witness by Counsel for the 

5 Respondent and, having been duly sworn, assumed 

6 the witness stand was examined and testified as 

7 follows: 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Please take a seat. 

9 When you are comfortable please state your name, 

10 and spell your last name for the record. 

11 THE WITNESS: Randy Palmer, P-A-L-M-E12 R. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Mr. 

14 Dobitsch, you may enquire. 

15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

16 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

17 Q Mr. Palmer, how long have you been a 

18 commercial pilot? 

19 A Since 1996, 19 years. 

20 Q How many, can you give me an 

21 approximation of how many hours you have been 

22 flying, total? 

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1 A In excess of 15,000 hours. 

2 Q Can you give me an idea about how many 

3 competency, airmen competency checks for charter, 

4 that you have done in your career? 

5 A I have been chartering about 14 years. 

6 So I'm going to say two a year. So 24 or 25, 

7 something like that, give or take one or two. 

8 Q Have you had these rides with -- how 

9 many different examiners, during those years --

10 A Ten, at least ten, over the years 

11 different examiners. 

12 Q And after most of these check rides, 

13 after these check rides, have you ever had any 

14 comments, or from 

15 A Always positive. I have never 

16 received any negative, other than some times a 

17 little bit of advice, something I could have done 

18 a little bit differently, during the flight 

19 portion. 

20 However, as a general rule, always 

21 positive comments, like a great pilot, it has 

22 been a pleasure to fly with you, again. Always 

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1 positive. 

2 Q Would you say that the oral and check 

3 rides were thorough? 

4 A As a general rule, for the most part, 

5 they are. However, I would like to state, for 

6 the record, that there have been times when orals 

7 have been completely missed. 

8 And I would also like to state, on the 

9 record, that there have been times, during flight 

10 portions of the check rides, that I have been 

ll asked to do things that have nothing to do with 

12 determining my competency, or proficiency. 

13 Q Can you give me an example? 

14 A An example would be, I can remember a 

15 flight test, not too long ago, that I was asked 

16 not to wear my foggles, which is the device that 

17 we wear to simulate instrument conditions, while 

18 we are being checked to fly in instrument weather 

19 conditions. 

20 And I was told to take them off, to 

21 help the examiner look for traffic. 

22 Q 

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Okay. During these 24, 25 plus check 

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1 rides you have had, during your career, have you 

2 ever had an unsatisfactory check ride? 

3 A I have had three. 

4 Q And can you tell me who the examiner 

5 was? 

6 A Yes, Mr. Harry Soudas. 

7 Q When you I would like to touch, 

8 again, on the August 29th conversation with Mr. 

9 Ference. When you did speak to him, asking him 

10 for guidance, did Mr. Ference give you any 

11 guidance? 

12 MR. BERMAN: Objection, leading, and 

13 assumes facts that -- well, leading question. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. There has been 

15 a leading objection. Do you have a response? Do 

16 you know what that means? 

17 MR. DOBITSCH: No, I do not, Your 

18 Honor. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: In short, there are 

20 two different ways to examine a witness. There 

21 is the direct examination, which you are in now, 

22 and there is cross-examination, which Mr. Berman 

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1 will pick up in a few moments. 

2 In direct examination it is, usually, 

3 open-ended questions like who, what, where, why, 

4 that allows the witness to blossom. 

5 In cross-examination it is a pointed 

6 question, such as, do you remember on the night 

7 of February 25th, that you were at a bar, 

8 Harry's, at 8 a.m.? It is almost putting words 

9 ln someone's mouth. 

10 So with a leading objection, Mr. 

11 Berman is saying that you crossed over into, 

12 glvlng this witness way too much information, 

13 before he lS allowed to answer. 

14 So I will sustain the objection, at 

15 this point. But I will note that there is, 

16 already, testimony in the record, that a 

17 conversation occurred on or about August 29th, 

18 2011, between Mr. Ference and Mr. Palmer. 

19 That has been introduced into the 

20 record by the FAA, during its direct case. 

21 

22 you have 

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So what questions, Mr. Dobitsch, do 

of this witness regarding that 

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1 conversation? 

2 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

3 Q During that conversation did Mr. 

4 Ference give you any guidance as to whether a 

5 293, 299 check ride was required of you? 

6 A No, he did not. 

7 Q Did Mr. Ference ask you, regarding the 

8 8710-3 form, which is the airmen competency form, 

9 did he ask you to fax, or produce for him, our 

10 copy of the form 

11 A No. 

12 Q for the check ride back on April 

13 18th of 2011? 

14 A No, he did not. 

15 Q What did Mr. Ference say to you? 

16 A Mr. Ference clearly stated, to me, you 

17 need to check your paperwork, leaving it up to me 

18 to try and interpret my dilemma, on my own. 

19 Q Was there anything, additional, that 

20 Mr. Ference said to you? 

21 A 

22 Q 

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No. 

From your many check rides that you 

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1 have taken, over the years, have you ever been 

2 asked by an examiner, about the regulations 

3 135.293, 297, or 299? 

4 A No. 

5 Q You have never been asked a question 

6 regarding those? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Or their application? 

9 A No. 

10 Q Have they ever asked you when your 

11 next check ride was? 

12 A No. 

13 Q So --

14 A They usually finish with, we will see 

15 you again in six months. 

16 Q Okay. Regarding the 2 9 3 and 2 9 7, 

17 check rides, or any check ride, do you ever 

18 prepare differently for any, for either of them? 

19 A Never had. Can't differentiate 

20 between one from another. 

21 Q So when you go, approximately, every 

22 six months when you go for a check ride, both 

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1 checks, whether it is a 293 or a 297, you do not 

2 differentiate between either of them? 

3 A I have never been able to tell the 

4 difference. 

5 Q Do you remember, after your 

6 conversation with Mr. Ference, and his lack of 

7 guidance, where he had said to check your 

8 paperwork; do you remember you and I going over 

9 the regulations, to see whether or not you were 

10 legal to fly? 

11 MR. BERMAN: Objection, he used the 

12 term lack of guidance. Again, it is leading and -

13 

14 THE WITNESS: It should be no 

15 guidance. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: This is not part of 

17 your testimony. 

18 MR. BERMAN: It lS argumentative. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: There has been an 

20 objecti= on the grounds of leading, and 

21 argumentative, to the question. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

I will sustain both. The question is 

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1 struck. Whatever testimony and statement that 

2 Mr. Palmer started to say is struck, and you are 

3 welcome to try and redesign that question. 

4 Thank you, Mr. Dobitsch. 

5 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

6 Q After speaking with Mr. Ference, on 

7 the 29th of August 2011, did you and I consult 

8 your past 87-10 forms, and the FARs, to see 

9 whether or not you were legal to fly? 

10 A Yes, we did. 

11 Q And what did we what was our 

12 interpretation? 

13 A Our interpretation was that our 

14 currency would remain for another three months. 

15 Q On section 135.293C, the section says, 

16 the instrument proficiency check required by 

17 135.297 may be substituted for the competency 

18 check required by the section, for the type of 

19 aircraft used in the check. 

20 Do you recall us going over that? 

21 A Absolutely. 

22 Q And do you recall us, at that time, 

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1 believing that, that would be applicable? 

2 A I do. 

3 Q Do you remember us using that section 

4 to make a decision that we would be able -- that 

5 you would be able to fly legally? 

6 A I do. 

7 MR. DOBITSCH: No further questions, 

8 Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Mr. 

10 Berman, do you have cross-examination of this 

11 witness? 

12 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

13 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

14 BY MR. BERMAN: 

15 Q Mr. Palmer, you were referred to the 

16 forms 8710-3, what is that, what is form 8710-3? 

17 A 

18 Q 

19 A 

20 Q 

21 not the 

22 A 

(202) 234-4433 

What is it? 

Yes. 

That is the flight check form. 

Are you sure? Are you sure you are 

correct number is not 8410-3? 

What are you asking me, again? 

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1 Q There has been evidence, introduced 

2 into the hearing, of forms 8410-3. Is that what 

3 you are referring to, 8410-3s, as opposed to 

4 8710-3s? 

5 A Possibly. 

6 Q You are not sure? 

7 A I am not sure. 

8 Q You are not sure? 

9 A No. 

10 Q So when you were referred before, to 

11 8710-3, it is possible you were referring to 

12 8410-3s? 

13 A Possible. 

14 Q But you are not sure? 

15 A No. 

16 Q So are you sure which documents you 

17 referred to, when you went over these with Mr. 

18 Dobitsch? 

19 A I'm talking about a specific 

20 regulation that states that one can be 

21 substituted for the other. 

22 Q But you are not sure, at this point, 

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1 what the number is? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Are you sure which documents he went 

4 over? 

5 A Absolutely. I can walk right to it and 

6 show it. But I don't know the number, if that is 

7 what you are asking me. 

8 Q You mentioned, before, that you don't 

9 differentiate between 135.293 and 135.297, is 

10 that correct? 

11 A I stated that I can't, I have never 

12 been able to differentiate between the physical 

13 oral questioning, or flight check, of those two 

14 different tests. 

15 Q So as far as you are concerned if you 

16 satisfy one you satisfy the other? If you 

17 satisfy 135.2 

18 A In all practicality, yes, that is 

19 correct. Because the flight tests are exactly 

20 the same. 

21 Q You testified before that when Mr. 

22 Ference, in your words, he left you on your own 

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1 as to interpret whether, to interpret the 

2 regulations as far as your currency requirements, 

3 lS that correct? 

4 A Yes, sir. 

5 Q And after you had this conversation 

6 with him, and this is on August 29th, 2011? 

7 A Yes, Slr. 

8 Q Did you make any attempts to get 

9 further clarification from anybody else at the 

10 Allentown FSDO. 

11 A No. And can I ask why I would? If I 

12 can't go to my FSDO, and request guidance when I 

13 am confused with a regulation, and I'm not given 

14 any -- who else would I call, another inspector 

15 and say, hey? 

16 Mr. Ference was the actual manager, I 

17 think, ln addition to the inspector down there, 

18 and that is why I went directly to him, thinking 

19 that would be the best person to give the advice. 

20 Q So you felt that he was -- it was your 

21 impression he was the manager of the FSDO? 

22 A 

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Yes. 

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1 Q Did you know that for sure? 

2 A He acted like a manager. Every time 

3 I would call down, to ask anything about 

4 anything, it was always referred to Mr. Ference. 

5 So we all assumed that he was, sort of, the 

6 manager ln addition to a flight inspector. 

7 Q So you felt there was nobody else you 

8 could ask, is that your testimony? 

9 A Correct. Mr. Ference had been my 

10 inspector, previous to Harry, and Harry and I had 

11 had a personal situation, going on, with failed 

12 check rides, and things. 

13 And I felt that Mr. Ference would be 

14 more appropriate, as a neutral party, to call and 

15 get an answer to the interpretation of a 

16 regulation, that I wasn't clear on. Simple as 

17 that. 

18 Q So that is the reason you didn't ask 

19 Mr. Soudas? 

20 A Pardon me? 

21 Q And that is the reason you didn't ask 

22 Mr. Soudas? 

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1 A Absolutely. 

2 MR. BERMAN: I have no further 

3 questions. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Mr. 

5 Dobitsch, do you have any redirect? 

6 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, I do. 

7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

9 Q Mr. Palmer, would you, at the time you 

10 spoke to Mr. Ference, were you aware of him 

11 having a good deal more experience than Mr. 

12 Soudas? 

13 A Without question. 

14 Q Would that have been a reason why, 

15 also a reason why you would have spoken to him? 

16 A Absolutely. 

17 MR. BERMAN: Objection, leading. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: The objection is 

19 leading. 

20 MR. DOBITSCH: I restated that. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, Mr. Palmer, you 

22 don't want to jump in like that, I will have to 

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1 strike that comment from you. 

2 When I hear an objection I have to 

3 make a ruling. And, unfortunately, I can't ask 

4 anyone for help. 

5 So your objection lS noted, it lS 

6 respectfully sustained, the answer is stricken. 

7 You will have to ask this witness a little more 

8 open-ended question about what his thoughts and 

9 feelings were, instead of telling him what you 

10 think they were. 

11 Mr. Dobitsch, would you like to try 

12 again? 

13 MR. DOBITSCH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

14 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

15 Q When you did speak to Mr. Ference, at 

16 that time, did you feel that you would be getting 

17 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, I'm golng to 

19 stop you. I think the better question is why, 

20 why did Mr. Ference why was Mr. Ference 

21 preferred? 

22 And then this witness can tell us why. 

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1 MR. DOBITSCH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If you could ask a 

3 why question, that would be helpful. 

4 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 

5 BY MR. DOBITSCH: 

6 Q Mr. Palmer, why would you have spoken 

7 to Mr. Ference, to get a yes or no answer, on 

8 whether or not you were able to fly? 

9 A At the time, and I still feel this 

10 way, and that is a factor of trust. I still, to 

11 this day, feel that I can call Mr. Bob Ference, 

12 and get an honest answer that is intelligent, and 

13 knowledgeable. 

14 And that was the reason that I pursued 

15 him for advice, as opposed to Mr. Soudas. 

16 MR. DOBITSCH: No further questions, 

17 Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. I have a 

19 couple of questions. And, again, I will let 

20 counsel and Mr. Dobitsch follow-up if they so 

21 choose. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

You indicated, in 

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1 testimony earlier this morning, that you have had 

2 three unsatisfactory check rides, all of which 

3 have been reviewed, and given to you, by 

4 inspector Soudas. 

5 THE WITNESS: Correct. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you remember that 

7 testimony? 

8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Have those all been 

10 within that 2010, 2011 period that we are talking 

11 about? 

12 THE WITNESS: It was three in a row. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And prior to that 

14 time, in your 19 years or so, of piloting, had 

15 you had any other such experience? 

16 THE WITNESS: Never. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You indicated, ln 

18 your testimony, that you had a problem with Mr. 

19 Soudas. Can you explain what that problem is, 

20 and why you thought it was relevant to the choice 

21 you made in calling Mr. Ference? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: Yes. Mr. Soudas, as my 

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1 new principal operating inspector, was charged 

2 with testing my currency/proficiency levels, to 

3 maintain my currency as a charter pilot. 

4 And three flight tests in a row he 

5 found me unsatisfactory. And, after the second 

6 one, I tried to find out why. And the third one, 

7 I continued to try and find out why. 

8 And, to this day, no one has been able 

9 to come to me, and tell me, and explain to me why 

10 I was found unsatisfactory. 

11 And the reason I'm stating it like 

12 this is that, as a pilot with my experience, if 

13 somebody tells me that I'm not doing something as 

14 safely as it could be done, I would expect them 

15 to show me some guidelines that show, here are 

16 the standards, or here is something that you can 

17 do differently. 

18 So that I know enough to go get some 

19 training, and do it correctly. When I come away 

20 from a check ride, and I don't understand what it 

21 is that I have done, then I have a problem with 

22 that person that is telling me 

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1 unsatisfactory. 

2 And that is why I did not want to 

3 communicate with Mr. Soudas any longer. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: In terms of the use 

5 that you testified to, about your examination of 

6 14CFR Section 135.293, as I understand it, you 

7 and Mr. Dobitsch looked at that regulation. 

8 And you found, under subsection C, as 

9 in cat, a statement saying that the instrument 

10 proficiency check, required by 135.297 could be 

11 substituted for the competency check required by 

12 2 93. 

13 Is that your testimony? 

14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

16 THE WITNESS: Well, in part. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Andwhat is the rest 

18 of --

19 THE WITNESS: There is another piece 

20 of it. In addition to that information, Mr. 

21 Dobitsch and I were looking at the last flight 

22 test paperwork. And they had checked the 

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1 autopilot box on it, which is one of the main 

2 things done in that baseline currency check. 

3 And the word re-established had been 

4 written on it. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So you have the 

6 exhibits at the witness chair, ln front of you, 

7 do you? So you are referring the Court to 

8 THE WITNESS: The April 18th performed 

9 by Mr. Ference. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And that is exhibit 

11 C-8? 

12 THE WITNESS: Exhibit just A. It is 

l3 just a regular flight test form. This is what 

14 Billy and I --Mr. Dobitsch and I referred to. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Right. But if you 

16 look at the very bottom of the page, Mr. Palmer17 

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, C-8, yes, Your 

19 Honor. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So we are both 

21 looking at exhibit C-8. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And the use of the 

2 autopilot is listed at the bottom right-hand 

3 corner of this one page document. 

4 THE WITNESS: It is actually on the 

5 left, satisfactory. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, I see -- you 

7 are looking at number 30 on the bottom? 

8 THE WITNESS: That is it, yes, ma'am. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: The left-hand side? 

10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And then, on the 

12 bottom right-hand side, under airman competency 

13 information, use of autopilot, there is nothing 

14 listed? 

15 THE WITNESS: Correct. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So ln this 

17 particular test, that this exhibit talks about, 

18 you saw this as being, as giving you clearance 

19 for how long a period? 

20 

21 months. 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: For another three 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: The next check date, 

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1 or base month would have been in what month? 

2 THE WITNESS: November, I believe. If 

3 this one, April and six months, so November, end 

4 of November. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. So this 

6 particular check, in your mind, basically covered 

7 not only 297 but 293? 

8 THE WITNESS: Well, it didn't cover 

9 it, but we thought it did. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: According to what 

11 your thoughts were at the time? 

12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You thought it 

14 covered 293, 297 and 299? 

15 THE WITNESS: Yes. And that is what 

16 I called for guidance on, because I really wasn't 

17 sure. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. When you 

19 called for guidance it was on or about August 

20 29th, 2011? 

21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

22 JUDGE SULLIVAN: That would have been 

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1 the very last day, under the FAA's version. Why 

2 did you call on that particular day, if you 

3 thought that the check was good until November? 

4 THE WITNESS: Well, I called on that 

5 day because I wasn't sure of the expiration. I 

6 wanted to know, is this my expiration, or can I 

7 actually continue with my runs? 

8 Because Mr. Dobitsch and I had been 

9 talking about this, from this April check ride. 

10 We really weren't clear as to what is going to 

11 happen at the end of 90 days. 

12 And that is why I took, I made the 

13 effort to call and try to get some clarification, 

14 before we went over that date, and made a 

15 mistake. 

16 And because I didn't get help we made 

17 the wrong decision. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Was there some reason 

19 why you didn't call Mr. Ference back and asked 

20 him if your interpretation was correct, or 

21 incorrect? 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

THE WITNESS: No, looking back I 

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1 should have, I should have stayed on it. But I, 

2 basically, came away from the call, when I'm told 

3 to check my paperwork, you called us, you asked 

4 for help. 

5 Now, you go make the decision and 

6 interpret the regulations on your own. So I did, 

7 and I did it incorrectly. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Has that been your 

9 typical experience, over the years, when you have 

10 been looking for ~~ 

11 THE WITNESS: Actually, no. Actually, 

12 as stated earlier, over the 15 years or so, as a 

13 commercial pilot, and all the charter flight 

14 tests, and things, I have never had issues with 

15 any FAA personnel, or any air traffic 

16 controllers. 

17 It is just that everything has been a 

18 well~working situation. They have always been 

19 very helpful. This all started from the time 

20 that Mr. Soudas came on the scene, and started 

21 failing me. 

22 And I was unable to communicate with 

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1 him. So, I mean, I don't know how else to 

2 explain it, other than, when somebody does that 

3 to me, and I can't resolve it with them, I have 

4 to talk to somebody else. 

5 And when they don't help me I'm left 

6 on my own, to try and interpret these 

7 regulations, and I think everybody will agree 

8 that the FAA regulations are just so complex, and 

9 so difficult for anybody to understand, when we 

10 need help from the FAA, we should be able to call 

11 and get some guidance. 

12 And when we don't get it, we are left 

13 with, this is the type of thing that happens. 

14 That is why we admitted to our mistake. I openly 

15 admit that I misinterpreted and made the error. 

16 But it wasn't without first trying to 

17 get some clarification. And then trying to 

18 resolve it, afterwards, I might add. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is inspector Soudas 

20 still your primary inspector? 

21 THE WITNESS: No. Since this has 

22 happened I'm sure that they have moved him around 

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1 ln a way that him and I don't get together any 

2 more, which is unfortunate. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Mr. 

4 Berman, do you have, excuse me, Mr. Dobitsch, do 

5 you have any sur direct of this witness, based on 

6 the Court's enquiry? 

7 MR. DOBITSCH: Your Honor, would that 

8 be based on your 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Just on mine 

10 MR. DOBITSCH: -- just on your own? 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes. 

12 MR. DOBITSCH: In that case I don't 

13 have a question. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman, do you 

15 have any sur cross based on the Court's enquiry? 

16 MR. BERMAN: No, I don't. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Palmer, thank you 

18 very much for your testimony, it is complete, you 

19 are excused. 

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, we had 

22 talk a little earlier about you doing a narrative 

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1 from the witness' stand. Are you ready to do 

2 that, do you need a minute to gather your 

3 thoughts? 

4 MR. DOBITSCH: I do have a question. 

5 Would I be able to bring some notes with me? 

6 Basically a time line of what --

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Have you shown that 

8 to Mr. Berman, yet? 

9 MR. DOBITSCH: Not this particular 

10 time line, but it is based on the previous 

11 letter, I had sent to Mr. Berman. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If you are going to 

13 use it as testimonial assistance Mr. Berman has a 

14 right to look at it first. 

15 Mr. Berman, would you care to look at 

16 that? 

17 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. I will give 

19 you a moment, in silence, to show Mr. Berman your 

20 materials, and then if he has an objection, I 

21 will address it at that time. 

22 

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1 (Pause.) 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, are you ready, 

3 Mr. Dobitsch? 

4 MR. DOBITSCH: Sure. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman, do you 

6 have any objection to Mr. Dobitsch using this 

7 time line? 

8 MR. BERMAN: I would object to it 

9 being offered into evidence. But I wouldn't 

10 object if he uses it to refresh his recollection. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you. Mr. 

12 Dobitsch, why don't you come on up with your 

13 material, that you have in your hand. 

14 And before you sit down I will swear 

15 you in. 

16 Whereupon, 

17 WILLIAM J. DOBITSCH, JR. 

18 was called as a witness by the Respondent and, 

19 having been duly sworn, assumed the witness stand 

20 was examined and testified as follows: 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Please take a seat. 

22 When you are comfortable, please state your name, 

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1 and spell your last name for the record. 

2 THE WITNESS: My name is William 

3 Dobitsch, D-0-B-I-T-S-C-H. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, Mr. Dobitsch, it 

5 lS my understanding that you have a narrative 

6 statement that you would like to make. 

7 And what we will do is this, we will 

8 gl ve you whatever time you need to make your 

9 narrative statement. 

10 Mr. Berman will, then, have a chance 

11 to cross-examine you, based on that statement, 

12 and some of the other testimony, if he so 

13 chooses. 

14 I may or may not ask some questions. 

15 As you can see, this morning, I have been fairly 

16 active, which some times happens. 

17 But you may proceed with your 

18 narrative. 

19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

20 THE WITNESS: I basically would just 

21 like to recap, from my standpoint, the sequence 

22 of events, and what has happened over here. 

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1 As previously stated, back in July, 

2 Mr. Palmer did pass an oral and flight check, 

3 given by Mr. Ference for his 135.293 and 299. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And what year is 

5 that? 

6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, July 7th and 

7 22nd of 2010. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. 

9 THE WITNESS: A full year before. 

10 Afterwards, on April 11th, 2011, Mr. 

11 Palmer passed what we now understand to be a 

12 135.297, which is already one of the exhibits ln 

13 here. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: That would be C-8? 

15 THE WITNESS: Correct, C- 8. And let me 

16 correct the date, that would be April 18th of 

17 2011. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. 

19 THE WITNESS: Come late August Mr. 

20 Palmer and I, based on the forms, were unsure as 

21 Mr. Palmer had stated, as to whether or not he 

22 was due a check ride. 

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1 And I had asked Mr. Palmer to reach 

2 out to Mr. Ference, who clearly has many years at 

3 the FSDO, and is experienced. 

4 Which he did. And Mr. Palmer did get 

5 an answer from Mr. Ference, and the answer was, 

6 as you have heard before, check your paperwork. 

7 So just like Mr. Palmer had said, we 

8 did check our paperwork. We looked at the 

9 regulations, we looked at the 8710s, I'm sorry, 

10 the 8410s, which is the airman competency check 

11 forms, that he had previously done. 

12 And we had -- we looked at everything. 

13 We decided that we were good. That he could fly 

14 for another three months, you know, at the most. 

15 And, of course, as we know, we made 

16 these flights, the six flights that were made 

17 during the period afterwards. 

18 Mr. Soudas then of course, I guess it 

19 was ln December, I was thinking it was November 

20 when he had come for an inspection, customary 

21 inspection. 

22 And I presented all the paperwork at 

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1 that time. I keep a box with all the paperwork. 

2 And I presented it to Mr. Soudas, and he went and 

3 took a look at it. 

4 And, you know, he had found that we 

5 had made these six flights, during this period. 

6 And, of course, he got copies, made sure he had 

7 copies of Mr. Palmer's 8410 form, also. 

8 He asked me for the information, I 

9 gave it to him. Shortly thereafter we had gotten 

10 a letter from the FSDO, and they had, they 

11 requested a conference to go over these alleged 

12 violations, at that time. 

13 And we immediately set up an 

14 appointment, and we had our conference. And with 

15 Mr. Soudas, Mr. Ference, and another gentleman, 

16 Brandon was there. 

17 But I believe at that time he was new to the 

18 Agency. 

19 And they explained the regulations to 

20 us and how we had, in effect, messed up. And in 

21 the subsequent letter I did, you know, admit 

22 that, you know, we did make a mistake. 

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1 Although we did, also, make an attempt 

2 with a senior person at the Agency, to get an 

3 answer. All we wanted was a yes or no. 

4 If we had gotten a no, fine, we don't 

5 fly. We schedule Mr. Palmer for a ride. We 

6 didn't just get a no. And there is really no 

7 reason for either of us think that we would have 

8 to go to multiple parties, at the FSDO, 

9 absolutely not. 

10 So, really, from our standpoint all of 

11 this could have been avoided, had we just gotten 

12 a yes or no answer. 

13 And I would have thought that us 

14 having asked this question, the FSDO would have 

15 been responsive to it. 

16 Because, obviously, the FAA -- and it 

17 lS, it lS a safety related issue. And that lS 

18 what we are all in this game for. We are in for 

19 safety, we want to make sure that our passengers, 

20 our pilots, can operate safely. 

21 So, based on that, what I would say 

22 lack of information, or no information, we made a 

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1 decision. And, ln hindsight, it was the wrong 

2 decision. 

3 And another big point was, at that 

4 time, I remember I said, this isn't -- it won't 

5 happen agaln. We won't make this mistake again. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And when you say at 

7 that time, are you talking about the conference 

8 that you had? 

9 THE WITNESS: The conference, exactly. 

10 Shortly thereafter, of course, Mr. 

11 Palmer got a letter. He was originally 

12 sanctioned, they were requesting to pull his 

13 commercial ticket for six months. Which he did, 

14 with an attorney's help, get that reduced to two 

15 months. 

16 And, myself, just because I can't 

17 afford an attorney, basically working on a 

18 shoestring, on my business, I had an attorney at 

19 first. But one meeting with Mr. Berman and it 

20 was over 3,000 dollars. 

21 

22 

And I, you know, in all honesty I 

choked, I couldn ' t believe it . 

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1 surprised, I guess, but and, of course, I had 

2 this 46,200 dollar fine to have to contend with, 

3 potential fine. 

4 And there is no way I will be able to 

5 pay. I mean, I just don't have actually, I 

6 probably shouldn't even mention it. 

7 Mr. Berman had sent me, the other day, 

8 additional forms, maybe we could work out, it was 

9 a questionnaire as to trying to get more 

10 financial information from me, so that maybe we 

11 could work out some kind of a settlement. 

12 And one of the questions was, how much 

13 do you have in your checking account, currently? 

14 So I just went on-line to look at my checking 

15 account, and I don't know if he even looked at 

16 it, but it was 15 dollars and 89 cents, and that 

17 is the truth. 

18 So, anyway, and of course we did, you 

19 know, to try to resolve this, we did have an 

20 option for an informal conference which, myself 

21 and my attorney, at that time Geoff Orlandi, we 

22 did meet with Mr. Berman. 

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1 We tried to, you know, explain my side 

2 of the story, basically. And tried to come up 

3 with some kind of, you know, I really want to 

4 just put this past me, so that we can just 

5 continue, both Mr. Palmer and I. 

6 And we, at that time, we could not. 

7 I mean, I made an offer which was, you know, 

8 substantially less than the 46,200. And that was 

9 not accepted. 

10 And, periodically, Mr. Berman and I 

11 have spoken. I can say two to three times, at 

12 least. Even recently, in the past week, week and 

13 ahalf. 

14 And the FAA is looking for, basically, 

15 20,000 dollars plus which, you know, I cannot do 

16 anything. You know, I can't. My last offer was 

17 2,500 dollars, and I will make payments over five 

18 months of 500 dollars, just to --

19 But it clearly isn't enough, you know, 

20 for whatever -- Mr. Berman is doing his job. 

21 And as I had stated, earlier, it -- I 

22 looked to give some additional tax returns, but I 

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1 just don't have them right now. And, believe me, 

2 I don't feel good about it. 

3 Although I do feel good that, at 

4 least, I have paid my accountant off and I will 

5 be able to get myself, in the next -- probably in 

6 the next year, get myself back to square one, or 

7 at least I'm where I should be. 

8 So my extenuatin:r circumstances, I 

9 guess if I could call them that, at that time Mr. 

10 Palmer and I did not take this lightly at all. 

11 We did talk it over, we looked at the 

12 regulations, and we made a decision, based on the 

13 regulations and the forms, that we were okay to 

14 fly for a couple more months. 

15 We did try to get some guidance and we 

16 did not get the guidance we were hoping for. 

17 Clearly these violations were not intentional. 

18 If they were intentional there is no 

19 way I would have put paperwork, records of six 

20 flights made, ln September and October. Why 

21 would I do that? Why would I incriminate myself? 

22 

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1 that the FAA could likely even find out about it, 

2 if I had made deleted charter flights. 

3 I mean, I thought we were legal. 

4 Otherwise I would not have produced that 

5 paperwork to Mr. Soudas. 

6 Once again, Mr. Palmer and I, prior to 

7 this, we have no enforcements, no violations, we 

8 have clean records. We make it a point to do 

9 things the right way. 

10 We want to stay legal. We want to be 

11 safe. I don't have the form, it is on my desk. 

12 But there was even the FAA' s report, that I 

13 believe Gene McCoy had signed, before it worked 

14 its way back up to the Jamaica, New York, to the 

15 original office. 

16 They said, we have been cooperative, 

17 and we have no prior violations. I have 

18 expressed remorse, and this would make it 

19 inadvertent. 

20 And I want to stress that, at no time, 

21 did we operate unsafely. Back in April Mr. Palmer 

22 had a, what is now, we are asserting is a 297 

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1 ride. 

2 Mr. Palmer has said, every ride he 

3 takes is the same. He gets checked, he will get 

4 an oral, he cannot discern a difference between a 

5 2 9 3 and a 2 9 7 . 

6 So was Mr. Palmer proficient? 

7 Absolutely. So in closing I would say that this 

8 is a technical error, nothing more. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And what does that 

10 mean to you, sir? What does a technical error 

11 mean to you, please? 

12 THE WITNESS: A technical error would 

13 mean we did not properly consider the boxes 

14 checked off, and the information written on that 

15 8410. 

16 And, also, our interpretation of the 

17 regulations were in error. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is there anything 

19 else you want to say? 

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, if that lS okay. 

21 Once, of course, I don't well, I do 

22 have some proof. But just to show how difficult 

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1 it has been for myself, as an FBO operator, to 

2 survive in this environment. 

3 I did bring with me, but I probably 

4 can't, I have W-2s from the past three years. 

5 I'm the only employee of Endless Mountains Air. 

6 And through the years I have watched my income 

7 just dwindle from around the 50,000 dollars a 

8 year range, when I first started, to last year I 

9 paid myself 1,750, 1,750 dollars. 

10 The year before that I believe it was 

11 19,000 and the year before that 23,000. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Have you shared this 

13 information with Mr. Berman before? 

14 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I shared 

15 my recent W-2s with Mr. Berman, over the past 

16 three years. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. We will talk 

18 about that in just a minute. Go ahead. 

19 THE WITNESS: I was going to say, too, 

20 that over the past year, over a year, I even had 

21 to, in addition of running the FBO, and the 

22 airport, I have also I have had to take a 

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1 full-time job at a local veterinary hospital. 

2 So, at least, I can get a paycheck. I 

3 mean, I have bills to pay personally. And I have 

4 previously mentioned, I think at the beginning, 

5 that the reason I don't have my tax returns is 

6 because I just recently, finally, cleared up 

7 after a number of years, a 15,000 dollar bill 

8 with my accountant. 

9 So this, to me, seems extremely heavy10 handed. And, really, has made it difficult, if 

11 not impossible, to stay in business. 

12 One of the things I would like to 

13 read, put on the record, is something that I had 

14 sent, I believe, to Mr. Berman and yourself, 

15 early on. 

16 It was a little article written by, at 

17 the time this was happening, all of this, my 

18 whole case, was an article written by John Allen 

19 who was the director of the FSDOs. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: This is the proposed 

21 Exhibit D? 

22 

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1 proposed Exhibit D. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Instead of reading 

3 it, essentially what we typically would do, is 

4 move for admission of that exhibit. And then the 

5 Court reads it to itself. 

6 And you can point out certain things 

7 ln it, but you don't need to read it to the 

8 Court. 

9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So are you moving for 

11 admission of Exhibit D? 

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would like to 

13 move to enter Exhibit D into the record. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. Berman, do 

15 you have any objection? 

16 MR. BERMAN: Yes, I would object to 

17 admission of this exhibit on the grounds of it is 

18 hearsay, and grounds of relevance. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, hearsay is 

20 admitted into these proceedings, as you know, 

21 under certain parameters. 

22 Mr. Dobitsch, do you have any response 

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1 as to the representative of the Respondent 

2 company, to the objection? 

3 THE WITNESS: I would say this is 

4 extremely pertinent to my case over here. Mr. 

5 Allen, in this article, is -- especially the last 

6 four paragraphs is speaking, really, to you, 

7 gentlemen the inspectors, about how enforcement 

8 should not be the first way to go with a 

9 violation. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, and --

11 THE WITNESS: With many, depending on 

12 the violation, of course. But that there are 

13 other ways that we can, while making flying safer 

14 for ourselves and the public, there are other 

15 methods that can be taken, besides this kind of 

16 enforcement, these kind of fines, for me having 

17 to come to court to try to defend myself. 

18 There are, certainly, other ways of 

19 doing this. And I think it is certainly 

20 pertinent. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm going to reserve 

22 ruling on the objection, and I'm going to ask Mr. 

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1 Dobitsch a few questions about the exhibit. 

2 So looking at Exhibit D, as in David, 

3 that the Respondent is proposing for admission, 

4 it appears that it is taken from a magazine of 

5 some kind. 

6 What magazine is that? 

7 THE WITNESS: It is an FAA publication 

8 called "FAA Safety Briefing". 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And what year, and 

10 what month was it published? 

11 THE WITNESS: This was published ln 

12 July and August of 2012. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And how is it that 

14 you know about this publication, or have come 

15 across this particular piece? 

16 THE WITNESS: Actually my attorney, 

17 who had gone for the initial conference with Mr. 

18 Berman, actually there, he found this. And he 

19 sent it to me and he said, hey Bill, this is 

20 really for you. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So this lS not a 

22 magazine that you subscribed to, for example? 

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1 THE WITNESS: I've seen copies of it. 

2 They are in all the FBOs at different airports. 

3 And a lot of times, when the inspectors will come 

4 by, they will give me copies of the magazine. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So you use it on 

6 occasion? 

7 THE WITNESS: I'm familiar with it, 

8 yes. And I do read some of the articles, sure. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Your objection is 

10 noted, Mr. Berman, and it is overruled. Exhibit 

11 D is hereby admitted. 

12 (The document referred to, 

13 having been previously 

14 marked for identification as 

15 Respondent Exhibit D is 

16 admitted in evidence.) 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, before 

18 we get back into your narrative there was, also, 

19 another exhibit, I believe, one more. 

20 In your proposed materials, Exhibit B, 

21 as ln boy, dated November 25, 2013. Is this 

22 something that you also plan to move for 

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1 admission, or are you dropping that one? 

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you for -- I 

3 would like to submit that. I don't think that I 

4 have that in front of me. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, what I'm trying 

6 to do is, since Mr. Palmer is at counsel table, 

7 Mr. Palmer are you, looking at the materials, do 

8 you see that in front of you? 

9 MR. PALMER: It is the November 25, 

10 2013 document. Or, Mr. Dobitsch, do you know 

11 where it is on your table? 

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I will ask you to go, 

14 leave the witness chair and go back to counsel 

15 table and get that. 

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And then we can talk 

18 about it, once you are back on the stand. 

19 Do you have copies for the court 

20 reporter and Mr. Berman? 

21 

22 

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THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Get all those copies. 

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1 Yes, please. 

2 If you would hand two to the court 

3 reporter, and do you have one for yourself? Then 

4 I will ask the court reporter to give you back 

5 one, and I will take, and I will use the one that 

6 you pre-filed with me, for the time being. 

7 So if you would go back to the witness 

8 chair, sir? And before you start talking, again, 

9 I will simply remind you that you are, still, 

10 under oath. 

11 You may be seated. You have before 

12 you Proposed Respondent's Exhibit B, as in boy. 

13 Would you care to identify that for us? 

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is an 8410 

15 airman competency/proficiency check form, that 

16 was given to Mr. Palmer after a 297 check ride, 

17 given by Joseph Baur, of the Allentown FSDO, back 

18 on November 25th of 2013. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And why, in your 

20 opinion, does this have anything to do with this 

21 case? 

22 

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1 it has something to do is, the form is confusing, 

2 in itself. Because on the type of check we have 

3 293, with boxes where it says type of check, all 

4 three, the 293, 297 and 299 boxes are checked. 

5 But one has to look further down, at 

6 the remarks, to ascertain that it is just a 297 

7 check. 

8 So the reason I think it is pertinent 

9 is, even the FAA can make mistakes. And I also 

10 note, at this time, that if there was confusion, 

11 I would make sure that I would get a definite yes 

12 or no. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Are you moving for 

14 admission of Respondent's Exhibit B? 

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would like to 

16 move to include Exhibit B. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman? 

18 MR. BERMAN: I would object on the 

19 grounds of relevance. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: The objection is 

21 noted and respectfully overruled. 

22 hereby, admitted. 

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1 Do you have anything else that you 

2 would like to add to your narrative, sir? 

3 THE WITNESS: I guess that is it. I 

4 was kind of hoping I would read the last 

s paragraphs, but you know them. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I will read 

7 everything. 

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you so much. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I read everything. 

10 Let me ask you a couple of questions 

11 before I turn to Mr. Berman. Let's talk about 

12 the fine, the proposed fine is 46,200 dollars. 

13 You were saying that you thought it 

14 would be more, it should be more along the lines 

15 of 500 dollars. 

16 What were you saying to us? 

17 THE WITNESS: Well, initially, because 

18 of my financial situation, I believe, if I 

19 remember right, at the first meeting I might have 

20 offered 500 to 1,000 dollars total, payment of 

21 fine, to Mr. Berman at that conference. 

22 

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And recently, when Mr. Berman had 

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1 indicated that maybe the FAA --

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, and I'm going 

3 to stop you because, typically, you don't talk 

4 about settlement offers on the stand. 

5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So I think, really, 

7 the question is, what do you think would be fair, 

8 and why do you think it would be fair? 

9 THE WITNESS: Well, my last offer --

10 I can't talk recently --

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You don't want to 

12 talk about your offers. Just what do you think -

13 

14 THE WITNESS: What do I think 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: -- is fair? 

16 THE WITNESS: What is fair? I mean, 

17 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And why. 

19 THE WITNESS: What would be fair, I 

20 think, would be -- I mean what I have already 

21 gone through the stress, and aggravation of 

22 dealing with this, really making an effort to 

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1 learn about our mistake, which is unintentional. 

2 And when it comes to a fine I really 

3 can't sustain anything substantial. So a small 

4 fine, if that is what the FAA wanted, then I 

5 could I will provide it. 

6 I'm already not paying myself, as it 

7 lS. If I have to scrounge around and get a little 

8 bit of money, for the FAA, I will do what I have 

9 to. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: What is a little bit 

11 of money, in your opinion? 

12 THE WITNESS: A thousand dollars. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

14 THE WITNESS: I mean, it is not a 

15 little bit of money for me. It is something that 

16 I could use to pay off existing bills that I 

17 have. 

18 But it would, certainly, make it -- it 

19 may just make it more difficult for me. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let me ask you a 

21 question or two. You indicated that you do have 

22 some financial information, here, specifically w-

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1 2s that your company generated for you, as an 

2 employee, is that correct? 

3 THE WITNESS: That is correct. My 

4 accountant had gotten me the copies last week. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And over what period 

6 of time did those span? 

7 THE WITNESS: They would be for the 

8 tax years 2012, 2013, and 2014. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Have you shared those 

10 with Mr. Berman? 

11 THE WITNESS: I have not. 

12 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is it are they 

13 something that you think would be helpful to your 

14 case, that you want the FAA to know about? 

15 THE WITNESS: Sure. I think it clearly 

16 demonstrates that I'm under financial difficulty. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Throughout the 

18 pendency of the trial you can continue to share 

19 information. Mr. Berman may find that it is too 

20 late for him to consider it, but you have the 

21 opportunity to offer. 

22 So what I'm going to do is I'm going 

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1 to recess, early, for lunch. I'm going to give 

2 you a chance, during your direct testimony, to 

3 show Mr. Berman whatever financial information 

4 you have brought with you. 

5 Talk to him about it. If you want to 

6 come back, after lunch, and try to testify about 

7 it, and he objects, we can deal with it then. 

s If the two of you reach a settlement 

9 agreement during lunch, that is fine, too. If 

10 you don't, that is fine, we will finish up. 

11 It looks like we are going to finish 

12 up with the trial today. 

13 So just for everyone's edification, I 

14 did talk to the court bailiff, before I came back 

15 on the bench, about lunch places. If you are not 

16 from this area, there are a variety of different 

17 lunch places, apparently, available outside the 

18 courtroom, on Hamilton Street. 

19 If you walk up the hill, not down the 

20 hill, on Hamilton, you will find some lunch 

21 spots, Subway, pizzeria, that kind of thing. 

22 You are welcome to leave things in the 

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1 court room. The courtroom is not secure. So if 

2 it is something valuable, that you want to see, 

3 like a long pen, or computer equipment, you may 

4 want to take that with you. 

5 But any of the papers can be laid on 

6 the table and, of course, no one looks at each 

7 other's material. 

8 So the Court will be leaving things on 

9 the bench as well. So if we are breaking early, 

10 for lunch, typically we want to come back early. 

11 How about if we are all back here by 

12 one o'clock? Mr. Berman, looking at your case 

13 and calendar, is that acceptable to you? 

14 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, Mr. Dobitsch, is 

16 that acceptable? 

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Madam Court Reporter, 

19 does that interfere with your lunch plans? 

20 Okay, I will see you all back at one 

21 o'clock, and I will simply note, Mr. Dobitsch, 

22 that if you are planning, after lunch, to talk 

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1 about any -- or to try and talk about any of that 

2 financial information, you want to try and make 

3 copies during the recess, and the marshalls, or 

4 the court bailiff can give you information about 

5 printing availability here. 

6 And then we can mark them 

7 sequentially. We would start with the letter E, 

8 as in egg, and go forward from there. 

9 With that we can go off the record, 

10 and I will see you all in an hour and 20 minutes. 

11 (Whereupon, theabove-mentionedmatter 

12 was recessed for lunch.) 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-0-0-N S-E-S-S-I-0-N 

2 1:05 p.m. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: We are back on the 

4 record in the matter of Endless Mountains Air, 

5 Inc. It is docket number FAA-2013-0848. 

6 We have reconvened after a lunch 

7 recess. All parties previously identified have 

8 returned to the court room. And both Mr. 

9 Dobitsch and Mr. Berman are at counsel table. 

10 So, folks, prior to the recess Mr. 

11 Dobi tsch was in the witness chair. Sir, you have 

12 not been excused, yet, from the witness chair. 

13 But before you come back up did you 

14 have a chance to provide copies of whatever 

15 material you wanted to discuss, with Mr. Berman, 

16 to Mr. Berman? 

17 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I do have 

18 copies. But I did speak briefly, with Mr. 

19 Berman, but he didn't think that was necessary 

20 that he have copies of it. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. Berman? 

22 MR. BERMAN: No, that is not. I 

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1 didn't say I don't need copies. I just said that 

2 I have nothing, as far as settlement goes, I have 

3 nothing to discuss at this point. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, fair enough. 

5 Have you had a chance to get copies of the W-2s, 

6 that Mr. Dobitsch referenced, before the recess? 

7 MR. BERMAN: I haven't received them 

8 yet. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, now would be 

10 the time, Mr. Dobitsch, to give those to Mr. 

11 Berman. If you plan to come back up to the 

12 stand, with them, and talk about them. 

13 And, Mr. Dobitsch, did you have a 

14 chance to kind of number them sequentially? 

15 THE WITNESS: I apologize, I did not. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Well, we can take 

17 care of that, easily, this afternoon. 

18 And while you are still at your desk, 

19 and you have a pen in hand, why don't we do the 

20 numbering now, just in case? 

21 

22 well. 

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And then Mr. Berman can number them as 

So how many different W-2 forms do you 

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1 have that you plan to bring up with you? 

2 THE WITNESS: I have three. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So what years are 

4 they? 

5 THE WITNESS: 2012, 2013, and 2014. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let's take the 2012, 

7 and we will label that as Respondent's Exhibit E, 

8 as in egg. The 2013 label Respondent's F, as in 

9 Frank, and the 2014 you want to label as 

10 Respondent's G, as in George. 

11 And I will ask Mr. Berman to label his 

12 on his own, since he already has copies. And 

13 then, Mr. Dobitsch, you should have a copy for 

14 the court reporter and one for me, as well, when 

15 you come up. 

16 I will note that Mr. Dobitsch is 

17 handing up to the Court clerk, two -- is it one 

18 copy for the clerk? 

19 THE WITNESS: One, yes, one copy to 

20 the clerk and then one copy to 

21 

22 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: You want to give the 

copy for the Court, to the clerk as well. And 

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1 then where lS your copy that you are bringing up? 

2 Or are you -- do you have --

3 THE WITNESS: I don't have a copy, but 

4 I know what it is. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Why don't I give you 

6 the Court's copies and then I will take them from 

7 you, essentially, or you can leave them on the 

8 witness's chair when you are done. 

9 So, Mr. Dobitsch, please be reseated. 

10 And, sir, you are still under oath. 

11 So you have, with you, some additional 

12 exhibits. And what I'm going to do is ask you to 

13 talk about those, first, and we will start with 

14 Exhibit E. 

15 You will identify it, and then we will 

16 go to Mr. Berman to see if he has objections, or 

17 voir dire, about it. 

18 So you have before you Exhibit E. 

19 What is Exhibit E? 

20 THE WITNESS: Exhibit E is my W-2 

21 form, issued by Endless Mountains Air, for the 

22 year 2012, in the amount of 23,500 dollars. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And this is, this was 

2 issued to you as an employee? 

3 THE WITNESS: As an employee of 

4 Endless Mountains Air. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And what is your job 

6 title, as an employee? 

7 THE WITNESS: I am the president. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And what is the 

9 relevance, in your oplnlon, of Exhibit E, to this 

10 case today? 

11 THE WITNESS: The relevance of Exhibit 

12 E is my lack of pay due to the difficulties I 

13 have of making my -- keeping my business afloat. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Are you moving for 

15 admission of Exhibit E? 

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would like to 

17 admit Exhibit E, please. 

18 

19 

20 

21 admitted. 

22 

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JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman? 

MR. BERMAN: I have no objection. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit E is, hereby, 

(The document referred to, 

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1 having been previously 

2 marked for identification as 

3 Respondent Exhibit E is 

4 admitted in evidence.) 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is there anything 

6 else you would like to talk about, in terms of 

7 Exhibit E? 

8 THE WITNESS: Right now, no. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Why don't we talk 

10 about Exhibit F. What is Exhibit F? 

11 THE WITNESS: Exhibit F lS my W-2 for 

12 the year 2013, showing total wages of 19,450 

13 dollars, paid by Endless Mountains Air, to 

14 William Dobitsch. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And in what capacity 

16 were you paid this amount? 

17 THE WITNESS: As president of Endless 

18 Mountains Air. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Are you moving for 

20 admission of Exhibit F? 

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would like to 

22 admit this into evidence. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman, any 

2 objection? 

3 MR. BERMAN: No objection. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit F is hereby 

5 admitted. 

6 (The document referred to, 

7 having been previously 

8 marked for identification as 

9 Respondent Exhibit F lS 

10 admitted in evidence.) 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let 's talk about 

12 Exhibit G, as in George. Could you identify that 

13 please? 

14 THE WITNESS: Exhibit G lS my W-2 from 

15 Endless Mountains Air to William Dobitsch, for 

16 the year 2014, showing total wages, tips, and 

17 compensation of 1,750 dollars. 

18 And I would like to admit this in as 

19 evidence. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And in what capacity 

21 were you paid this money? 

22 

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THE WITNESS: I was president of 

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1 Endless Mountains Air. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman? 

3 MR. BERMAN: No objection. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit G is, hereby, 

5 admitted. 

6 (The document referred to, 

7 having been previously 

8 marked for identification as 

9 Respondent Exhibit G lS 

10 admitted in evidence.) 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Is there anything 

12 that you would like to talk about, specifically, 

13 in terms of Exhibit F, or Exhibit G? 

14 THE WITNESS: Just that they reflect 

15 a progressively more difficult economic 

16 environment, and my inability to pay myself for 

17 my job, as president of Endless Mountains Air. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: What else, if 

19 anything, would you like to add to your narrative 

20 testimony today? 

21 THE WITNESS: I think that that is 

22 about it, then, thank you. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Let me ask you one or 

2 two questions, and then I will turn to Mr. 

3 Berman. 

4 You had indicated, ln your Answer, 

5 that you thought some of your defenses were that, 

6 A, it was a technical violation, that it was not 

7 intentional, or that it was an inadvertent 

8 violation. 

9 That it never compromised passengers' 

10 or flight safety. And that you couldn't afford 

11 the proposed fine. 

12 It appeared to me, ln some of your 

13 enqulry, that you are also asserting, and this 

14 came in your answer as well, that there was a 

15 problem that arose, during your attempts to try 

16 and solve your confusion. 

17 Did you want to talk anything more 

18 about that? 

19 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- do you mean 

20 the problem trying to get some guidance from the 

21 FAA? 

22 

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1 think that that is, somehow, wrapped into what 

2 the fine should be? Or is that just a way of 

3 explaining what happened? 

4 THE WITNESS: Well, I do think it is 

5 a way of explaining what happened and, also, how 

6 the fine is, you know, has been come to. 

7 I understand, you know, Mr. Soudas 

8 laid out the different, you know, the schedules 

9 that the FAA has. 

10 But, you know, at the end of the day 

11 I trust Mr. Palmer to get, you know, he is the 

12 pilot. And we worked together to try to do the 

13 right thing. 

14 And I also trust that when he goes to 

15 the FAA to get answers, we should get an answer. 

16 And by us not being able to get a definitive 

17 answer I, certainly, think it is an extenuating 

18 circumstance. 

19 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you. Anything 

20 else that you would like to add to your direct 

21 testimony before I turn to Mr. Berman? 

22 THE WITNESS: No, not at this time, 

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1 thank you. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman, do you 

3 have cross-examination of Mr. Dobitsch? 

4 MR. BERMAN: Yes, I do. 

5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

6 BY MR. BERMAN: 

7 Q Mr. Dobitsch, you testified, before 

8 that that there was some confusion as to 

9 whether Mr. Palmer was current with respect to 

10 the 135 examination requirements, is that 

11 correct? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And what was -- what were you confused 

14 about? 

15 A What were we confused about? Well, we 

16 were confused as to whether a check ride was due, 

17 for him, at that time, that was coming up. 

18 Q Why was there confusion? I mean, if 

19 you look at Exhibit do you have, front of you, 

20 Exhibit C-2, and C-3. Do you have that in front 

21 of you? 

22 

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1 3? 

2 MR. BERMAN: Yes. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If you give me a 

4 minute to get those, Mr. Berman, that would be 

5 great. 

6 (Pause.) 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, let us 

8 know when you have those exhibits in front of 

9 you. 

10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

11 (Pause.) 

12 THE WITNESS: Okay, I do have them, 

13 Your Honor. 

14 BY MR. BERMAN: 

15 Q And there was no confusion about the 

16 fact that, as of July 22nd, 2010, Mr. Palmer was 

17 current with respect to 135.293, 135.297, and 

18 135.299, is that correct? 

19 A Well, there is no confusion now. 

20 Q Right, well, was there confusion then, 

21 that he was in compliance with --

22 A 

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There was confusion at that time. You 

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1 know, my understanding of the rules were that 

2 every six months Mr. Palmer needed a check ride. 

3 I mean, it is as plain as that. He 

4 needed a check ride. Mr. Palmer has told me, 

5 numerous times, that each check ride is 

6 identical. 

7 So I looked at April 18th, 2011, as 

8 being within six months. So at that time he was 

9 less than six months. I saw him not needing a 

10 check ride. 

11 And then, you know, with that in mind, 

12 and the lack of information from the FSDO, I 

13 guess, or guidance we looked at the regulations 

14 and we thought he was okay. 

15 Q Well, there are clear 12 month 

16 requirements in the regulations, in 135.293 and 

17 135.299, is that correct? 

18 A Yes, I do understand that now. At 

19 that time I did not understand that. Which is 

20 why have a which is why the FSDO request that 

21 we come here to explain these, you know, at that 

22 point 

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1 regulations better to us. 

2 Q Wouldn't you agree that a part 135 air 

3 carrier has ultimate responsibility for 

4 compliance with the FAR 135 regulations, 

5 independent of any guidance from Flight 

6 Standards? 

7 A Well, ultimately yes. You know, 

8 ultimately Mr. Palmer and I make the decisions. 

9 But we certainly are not --you know, I'm not an 

10 expert working with the FARs every day, as the 

11 members of the FSDO are. 

12 Which is why we reached out for some 

13 guidance. 

14 Q Well, aren't you required to be 

15 knowledgeable of the -- if you are running a Part 

16 135 air carrier, aren't you responsible to be 

17 familiar with the Part 135 regulations? 

18 A Absolutely, but at the same time I'm 

19 not infallible. 

20 Q And you mentioned, before, the name 

21 Gene McCoy? 

22 A 

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Yes. 

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1 Q And he is the manager of the Allentown 

2 FSDO? 

3 A Yes, I believe he is now, and I 

4 think he was at the time, too. 

5 Q And have you worked with him? 

6 A I have never worked with him. I 

7 cannot recall --

8 Q But you are aware that he is the 

9 manager of the FSDO, correct? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q And you were aware, and back when he 

12 became manager you were aware of that, is that 

13 right? 

14 A I can't say yes or no. 

15 Q Well, back in 2 011 were you aware that 

16 he was the manager of the FSDO? 

17 A I can't say that I knew for sure, no. 

18 Q Well, who was it, at the FSDO, that 

19 you felt didn't give you the proper, or 

20 sufficient guidance, with respect to your 

21 confusion of that --

22 A 

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Well, I had worked a number of years 

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1 with Mr. Ference, before, I had known him. And 

2 Randy and I, or Randy, we decided that he would 

3 be the most knowledgeable. 

4 Q Were you aware that Bob Ference was 

5 not the manager of the FSDO? 

6 A Yes, I knew that. 

7 Q And did it ever occur, to you, to go 

8 to management of the FSDO, if you weren't 

9 satisfied with the non-responsiveness of the 

10 inspectors at the FSDO? 

11 A No, it did not. 

12 Q Why is that? 

13 A Because I, over the years, I had built 

14 up a certain level of trust with Mr. Ference and, 

15 generally, I would feel comfortable if he had 

16 given us an answer. 

17 Q So you felt comfortable with Mr. 

18 Ference's response to you? 

19 A At that time I -- no, I don't think 

2 o so, because I -- he didn't give me an answer yes, 

21 or no, really what I was looking for. 

22 Q Well, why didn't you to go management, 

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1 at the FSDO, to go over his head and try to get a 

2 better answer from management? 

3 A I guess, at that time, I would have --

4 I wouldn't have thought of it, I didn't think of 

5 it. 

6 Q Are you familiar with the requirement 

7 of the Part 135 regulations to maintain records 

8 to reflect pilot currency in the Part 135 

9 examinations? 

10 A Yes, that would be the 8410 forms. 

11 Q And you are required to keep these for 

12 a certain period of time, is that correct? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q And for how long a period of time? 

15 A I believe it is two years. 

16 Q And when the FAA comes to inspect 

17 records, you are required to produce them, is 

18 that right? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q And when the FAA came to look at the 

21 records, when this investigation came about, that 

22 was less than a year of the violations, is that 

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1 correct? 

2 A Yes, it would have been. 

3 Q So would it be correct to say you were 

4 required, at the time the FAA inspected, you were 

s required to maintain, still have these records 

6 reflecting Mr. Palmer's 8410-3s? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Okay. And at the time the FAA came to 

9 inspect the records you were required to produce 

10 them to the FAA, is that right? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q So you had no choice but to provide 

13 these records, to the FAA, if you wanted to be ln 

14 compliance, and not violate other regulations, is 

15 that correct? 

16 A That is the way I understand it. 

17 Q All right. Is Endless Mountains Air 

18 still in business? 

19 A Yes, we are. 

20 Q And what kind of flights do you 

21 conduct in your business? These are -- I mean, 

22 are these -- you have passengers who pay money 

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1 for flights? 

2 A Well, we -- our business is charter, 

3 air charter. And we, also, rent aircraft for 

4 pilots that are certificated, and can fly them. 

5 And we also do flight instruction with 

6 those aircraft. 

7 Q And how much do you charge for the use 

8 of the aircraft? 

9 A For the 172 rental it is 135 dollars 

10 an hour, plus tax. And for the Cirrus, the 

11 charter aircraft, it is it depends on its use. 

12 If it is for charter I will, generally it is 

13 kind of a sliding scale, you know, see if I can 

14 get the business. 

15 But my base rate is 325 an hour for 

16 the aircraft. And if you are a renter of the 

17 aircraft, it is 250 dollars an hour. 

18 Q And to conduct these flights you need 

19 to have money to pay for fees, and fuel, and 

20 other expenses, is that correct? 

21 A Absolutely, sure, there is fuel 

22 expenses, there is maintenance expenses, you 

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1 know, insurance. 

2 Q All right. So if you have only 15 

3 dollars in a checking account, where does the 

4 money come from to pay for these expenses? 

5 A Well, I don't know if you have ever 

6 run a business, Mr. Berman, but money is fluid in 

7 a business account. There is constantly monies 

8 coming in, and constantly monies going out. 

9 In my case, unfortunately, basically 

10 whatever comes in, goes out. And, you know, the 

11 insurance company, it is not like the bill comes 

12 and I have to write that check today, you know? 

13 I, basically, really over the past 

14 couple of years, I'm just -- I look at myself as 

15 being responsible for putting my fingers in the 

16 dike, on any given day, just to keep things 

17 going. 

18 And then, sometimes that means some 

19 people wait, other times it means they get paid 

20 right away. You know, as I had mentioned earlier, 

21 my accountant waited, patiently, for 

22 approximately three years to get her 15,000 

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1 dollars. 

2 But they are good people, you know? 

3 She is a good person, and like I said, it is 

4 fluid. You know, hangar rentals come in. My main 

s hangar rental, people that rent hangers from me, 

6 sure, their rent is due at the beginning of the 

7 month. 

8 Depending on what their difficulties 

9 are, sure, I might get. Very rarely would I get 

10 it in the beginning of the month. 

11 But, I mean, a lot of times they are 

12 late. And if they are late, then I'm late with 

13 my payments. It is not a set schedule. 

14 And in answer to your question, I 

15 don't have any backup, I guess you could say. 

16 There is nothing sitting, in my checking 

17 accountant, that I could say no problem, this 

18 insurance bill is due, or the maintenance bill to 

19 O&N who does the work on the aircraft, it lS 

20 due. 

21 When I have the money I will pay it. 

22 And they understand that. And I'm the same way, 

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1 you know? A lot of times, really, with my 

2 customers too. I understand how it is. 

3 Sometimes things are tough. So you 

4 try to do the best you can to make it work. 

5 Q Is there a lot of money spent on 

6 credit? 

7 A No, I don't have any credit any more. 

8 My credit has been destroyed over the past five, 

9 or six years. Really, since the crash of 2008, 

10 when everything crashed. 

11 Flying really dropped dramatically. 

12 And we are not in an especially wealthy area of 

13 the country, and people have limited funds. And 

14 we do the best we can. 

15 Q You testified, before, about the 

16 Exhibits E, F and G, the W-2s. And these reflect 

17 how much Endless Mountains Air pays you, as an 

18 employee, is that correct? 

19 A That is correct. 

20 Q And isn't it true that the company, 

21 and you, as the one person who runs the company, 

22 has the discretion to use money for other things, 

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1 other than paying yourself salary, is that 

2 correct? 

3 A Well, yes. 

4 Q So the fact that you are paying 

5 yourself less money would not, necessarily, 

6 reflect the fact that the company is doing any 

7 worse than it was before, is that correct? 

8 A It is possible if you reflect that. 

9 In this case it doesn't. Just for everyone's 

10 knowledge, when I first started this business my 

11 yearly 

12 Q You have answered the question. 

13 A Okay. 

14 MR. BERMAN: I have no further 

15 questions. 

16 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. 

17 Berman. Mr. Dobitsch, Slnce you are representing 

18 yourself, you can add to your narrative 

19 statement, at this time. 

20 Based on the cross-examination did 

21 anything come up that you would like to explain? 

22 

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1 the last question. 

2 When I first started this business, in 

3 2001, I took over as the FBO at Seaman's Airport. 

4 My projected income was 52,000 dollars a year. 

5 That was my income. I was able to pay myself that 

6 for three years, approximately. 

7 Every year it has slowly dwindled. 

8 But, ln particular, it has accelerated in 2008. 

9 I'm doing the best I -- I'm really just keeping 

10 it afloat as best I can. 

11 A lot of days I wonder why I even 

12 bother. Do I need the aggravation and the 

13 difficulty? But I really do enjoy running the 

14 airport, and the FBO. I do enjoy it, it is a lot 

15 of fun. 

16 And I've had a lot of different jobs 

17 ln my life, and I would say that I have enjoyed 

18 this the most. And I'm still an optimistic 

19 person, and I think -- and I still think, even 

20 Mr. Palmer and I were talking on the way down 

21 here, I'm still optimistic that things are going 

22 to turn around. 

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1 And in a couple of years, with some 

2 hard work, I will be okay. And that is about it. 

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman, based on 

4 the additional direct, do you have any sur cross? 

5 MR. BERMAN: No, I don't. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Dobitsch, thank 

7 you very much for your testimony, it appears to 

8 be complete, you are excused. 

9 MR. DOBITSCH: Thank you, Your Honor. 

10 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You are excused. 

11 Leave all the exhibits on the stand. And we will 

12 wait until you get back to your seat. 

13 Mr. Dobitsch, is there anyone else 

14 that you are planning to call to testify on your 

15 case? 

16 MR. DOBITSCH: No, Your Honor. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Any other exhibits 

18 that we need to address on behalf of your 

19 company? 

20 MR. DOBITSCH: No. 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you rest at this 

22 time, are you done? 

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1 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. The Defense 

3 rests. Mr. Berman, did you wish to make a 

4 closing argument of any kind? 

5 MR. BERMAN: Yes, I would. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, Mr. Dobi tsch, do 

7 you wish to make a closing argument as well? 

8 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, I would. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. Berman, 

10 would you like to take a few minutes to think 

11 about your closing, or are you ready to go right 

12 now? 

13 MR. BERMAN: I'd like to take a --

14 just a short break. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: How much time would 

16 you like to have? 

17 MR. BERMAN: Five minutes. 

18 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. Mr. Dobitsch, 

19 how much time would you like to have, to think 

20 about what you would like to say, in closing? 

21 MR. DOBITSCH: Five minutes would be 

22 fine for me. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I appreciate both of 

2 your interests and expedition. I'm going to give 

3 you ten minutes just to be on the safe side. 

4 So why don't we reconvene at 1:40? We 

5 are off the record at this time. 

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

7 went off the record at 1:30 p.m. and 

8 went back on the record at 1:40 p.m.) 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: We are back on the 

10 record in the matter of Endless Mountains Air, 

11 Inc., docket number FAA-2013-0848. 

12 We have reconvened, after a brief 

13 afternoon recess. Prior to the recess both 

14 parties rested their cases ln chief, and the 

15 parties are now, here, for closing argument. 

16 Mr. Berman, would you like to go 

17 first? 

18 MR. BERMAN: Yes. As a Part 135 air 

19 carrier, that carries passengers for 

20 compensation, Endless Mountains Air is 

21 responsible for ensuring that it complies with 

22 the requirements of Federal Aviation Regulation 

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1 Part 135. 

2 Including specifically, for the 

3 purposes of this proceeding, the currency 

4 requirements for examinations that is to be 

5 taken, by pilots for Part 135 operations, 293, 

6 2 9 7 , and 2 9 9 . 

7 And the purpose of these regulations 

8 is to ensure that those responsible for taking 

9 paylng, flying passengers for hire, are qualified 

10 to fly. 

11 And if they are not qualified, as a 

12 result of not being current with the examination 

13 requirements, this poses a potential danger to 

14 the flying public. 

15 And there has been testimony, from 

16 Inspector Harry Soudas, about these requirements, 

17 135.293, 295, 297, they are all independent of 

18 each other. 

19 There is a -- 135.293 is divided into 

20 a written, or oral examination, in subpart A. 

21 Subpart B has a competency check requirement. 

22 135.297 

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1 requirement. 

2 And 135.299 is a line check, where 

3 pilots are tested, go from one place to another, 

4 landings, and take-offs. 

5 And all three of the -- it is not, you 

6 can comply with one and not the other. All three 

7 have to be complied with. 

8 There is, also, a grace month 

9 requirement, ln 135.301, that allows them an 

10 additional month. And the 135.293 checks are 

11 required to be performed every 12 calendar 

12 months. 

13 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I'm sorry, could you 

14 say that again, please? 

15 MR. BERMAN: The 135.293 requirements 

16 are every 12 months. The 135.297 every six 

17 months, and the 135.299 every 12 months. 

18 In this case there is no dispute that 

19 Endless Mountains Air had Mr. Palmer conduct six 

20 flights in Part 135 in September-October of 2011, 

21 when he was not current under either 135. 293A, or 

22 135.299. 

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1 And this is corroborated by the forms 

2 8410-3 that were offered and admitted into 

3 evidence, Exhibit C-2, C-3, C-8 and C-9. 

4 And these forms were very clear as to 

5 which regulations were complied with, as a result 

6 of the examinations reflected in these forms. 

7 It is very clear, from looking at 

8 Exhibit C-2 and C-3, that it was Mr. Palmer, at 

9 that time, was current with respect to 135 all 

10 three of the regulations in question, as of July 

11 22nd, 2010. 

12 And the only 8410 after that, 

13 reflecting his passing examination, was the one 

14 on Exhibit C-8, reflecting his passing of an 

15 examination in 135.297. 

16 It is very clear, from this form, that 

17 it was only 135.297, with which he was in 

18 compliance. And that it says, at the bottom, 

19 remarks: 135.297 check, re-established 135.297 

20 check. 

21 At the top it says, where there are 

22 three regulations listed, only 135.297 is checked 

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1 off. And it is clear, from these forms, that he 

2 was only in compliance with 135.297. 

3 Now, there has been some testimony, to 

4 the effect that there are about -- about Federal 

5 Aviation regulation 135.297, excuse me, 135. 293C, 

6 which states that the instrument proficiency 

7 check required by 135.297 may be substituted for 

8 the competency check required by this section, 

9 for the type of aircraft used ln the check. 

10 Now, the-- even if you interpret this 

11 regulation, in favor of Respondent, this would 

12 only suggest that the instrument proficiency 

13 check required by 135.297, could be used to 

14 substitute for the requirements of 13 5. 2 93B, 

15 which refers to the competency check. 

16 Now, I'm not taking a position as to 

17 whether it does or not, whether it can be 

18 substituted. But it certainly, it is very clear, 

19 from the language of the regulations, that 

20 135.297 proficiency check not be used in lieu of 

21 a 135.293A written or oral test. 

22 Nor can it be used for a 135.299 line 

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1 check. And this was established with the 

2 testimony of inspector Soudas, these are 

3 different types of examinations. 

4 So, therefore, I would say that it is 

5 clear, from the regulations, and from the 

6 evidence in this record, that when Mr. Palmer 

7 flew these flights in September/October, it was 

8 clear, and should have been clear, to Endless 

9 Mountains Air, that he was not current under 

10 135. 293A, 290, and 135.299. 

11 I would note that, as an air carrier, 

12 Endless Mountains Air is responsible to be 

13 familiar with these regulatims. And it is 

14 ultimately responsible for compliance with the 

15 regulations. 

16 And it shouldn't have to rely on 

17 guidance from the Federal Aviation 

18 Administration. 

19 There has been testimony, from 

20 Respondent, Endless Mountains Air, that they 

21 sought guidance from the FSDO, and they were not 

22 satisfied with the guidance that they were given, 

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1 with respect to their confusion. 

2 Again, I'm still a little confused 

3 about what the confusion was, and I don't think 

4 that there should have been confusion. 

5 And even if there was confusion, there 

6 has been testimony, from Inspector Ference, that 

7 they sought his advice and he said, well, show me 

8 your records, and they wouldn't produce them, 

9 after he asked for them. 

10 And they have, their testimony is 

11 somewhat different, somewhat different. But the 

12 bottom line is that their claim, Mr. Ference 

13 testified that he tried to help them, but he 

14 couldn't help them, because they didn't provide 

15 the records. 

16 They are saying that he just left them 

17 to their own devices. But there is no 

18 explanation as to why they, if they weren't happy 

19 with the guidance they got from the FSDO, from 

20 Inspector Ference, why couldn't they go to 

21 management in FSDO? 

22 Or try to make further attempts to get 

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1 clarification? Again, they are ultimately 

2 responsible, I think the regs are pretty clear. 

3 And they -- and it is a very -- they have a big 

4 responsibility, taking flying passengers, that I 

5 would submit they should take extra steps to make 

6 sure that they are in compliance. 

7 Now, turning to the sanction 

8 determination, there is testimony from Inspector 

9 Soudas about his use of exhibit C-7, 21538. This 

10 was a -- Endless Mountains Air is a small group 4 

11 air carrier. 

12 He testified that he determined that 

13 Endless Mountains Air, by using Mr. Palmer in 

14 these flights, when he was not current with 

15 respect to the examination requirements, was 

16 unqualified under figure 81 and 3, on page 6, of 

17 6, of Exhibit 7. 

18 And that the recommended civil penalty 

19 for that would be a maximum civil penalty. And 

20 that reflects the fact that the FAA is very 

21 concerned that pilots, who fly for Part 135 

22 operations, and other air carriers be, have the 

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1 necessary qualifications to fly, for purposes of 

2 the safety of the public. 

3 And I note that Exhibit C-7, page 4 of 

4 6, reflects that these violations refer to all 

5 U.S. air carriers, U.S. commercial operators, 

6 part 125 operators, and part 129 operators. 

7 So U.S. air carriers, and commercial 

B operators, would include Endless Mountains Air as 

9 a Part 135 air carrier. 

10 There is testimony, from Inspector 

11 Soudas, that the relevant-- that there are three 

12 categories of group 4 on page 3, of Exhibit 7. 

13 And the one that would be relevant, 

14 here, is the Group 4 violations covered under 

15 49USC46301A58, that occurred after June 15th, 

16 2006. 

17 The maxlmum range being 4,400 to 

18 11,000. Mr. Soudas determined that there weren't 

19 any particular aggravating, or mitigating 

20 circumstances. So, in such a case, we would take 

21 the mid point of that range, come up with 7,700 

22 and multiply that by six flights and violations, 

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1 for a total of 46,200. 

2 And that is the sanction that we seek. 

3 There has been a 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Mr. Berman, let me 

5 ask you a question about that. 

6 MR. BERMAN: Okay. 

7 JUDGE SULLIVAN: In looking at page 3 

8 of C-7, under group 4, with the maximum range of 

9 4,400 to 11,000, essentially the minimum/maximum 

10 would be about 26,400. And then the 

11 maximum/maximum, would be about 66,000. 

12 Is that about right? 

13 MR. BERMAN: The minimum/maximum would 

14 be -- okay. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If we times the 4,400 

16 by 6 versus the 11,000 by 6. And if you could 

17 calculate that to a better number than I did, 

18 that is great. 

19 MR. BERMAN: If you said, did you say 

20 26,400 as the 

21 JUDGE SULLIVAN: That was my rough 

22 calculation. 

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1 MR. BERMAN: Right, that is correct. 

2 The minimum of the maximum range would be 2 6, 4 0 0 

3 and the maximum of the maximum range would be 

4 66,000. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And as you have 

6 worked with the recommendation, under 2153B what, 

7 if any, rationale do you know of, that would drop 

8 this either below 26,400 or above 66,000, just 

9 hypothetically. 

10 MR. BERMAN: Well, I don't --

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Do you ever see that? 

12 MR. BERMAN: Yes, I don't think we can 

13 go above 66,000 unless we were to say, well, 

14 there were two different regulations, 135 -- that 

15 would be, I think that might be construed as 

16 piling on. 

17 Now, to go below we would have to 

18 establish that there was a different violation. 

19 Unless there was some, maybe we could go lower if 

20 we determined that there were unusually 

21 mitigating circumstances that would warrant -- we 

22 are not --

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: But your position is 

2 that there were no mitigating circumstan::::es at 

3 all, in this case, is that correct? 

4 MR. BERMAN: That is correct. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you. Go 

6 ahead. 

7 MR. BERMAN: Okay. And so -- okay, so 

8 we have established, we have had testimony that 

9 the appropriate civil penalty would be 46,200. 

10 Now, Endless Mountains Air has this 

11 claim of inability to pay the civil penalty. And 

12 I would note, and this lS suggested by Your 

13 Honor, at the beginning of this hearing, that --

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Absent documentary 

15 evidence, that 

16 MR. BERMAN: Right, the burden of 

17 proof is on Respondent. And to fulfill that 

18 burden they would need to produce documents. 

19 They have not produced any documents, 

20 other than Exhibit R-E, R-F and R-G. And that 

21 simply reflects one aspect of the business, how 

22 much they paid the president of the company, Mr. 

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1 Dobitsch. 

2 But that is --

3 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm going to 

4 interrupt you again, Mr. Berman. 

5 MR. BERMAN: Okay. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: As I understand the 

7 case law, in this, and I want you to correct me 

8 if I'm wrong. That, essentially, the burden is 

9 on the Respondent to produce substantial 

10 financial documentation, or sufficient financial 

11 documentation, so that the FAA can reasonably 

12 enquire, and question, or challenge the assertion 

13 of financial inability to pay. 

14 And absent that kind of documentation, 

15 a subjective statement, whether in writing, or 

16 orally under oath, has been deemed, by the FAA 

17 administrators, insufficient to grant a party 

18 relief under financial distress. 

19 Is that about the -- a good summary of 

20 the way the FAA case law has run in this 

21 particular issue, or is it a little different 

22 than that? 

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1 MR. BERMAN: I'm not really sure. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay. 

3 MR. BERMAN: It sounds right to me. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: I think that is what 

5 it is. But I just wanted to ask you if you had 

6 any different understanding and it sounds like 

7 you don r t. 

8 MR. BERMAN: Right. 

9 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, go ahead. 

10 MR. BERMAN: So Respondent has not 

11 produced any documentation of the of his 

12 inability to pay, except for these W-2s, which 

13 only reflect how much he, as an employee, was 

14 paid. 

15 But that only reflects one aspect, it 

16 doesn't really reflect on the financial -- and he 

17 is saying that, yes, I had to pay myself less, 

18 and that shows that the company was not making as 

19 much money. 

20 But it doesn't, you can't really tell, 

21 this is taken totally out of context. 

22 really tell how the company is doing. 

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1 They have discretion, of course, to 

2 use expenses for -- excuse me, money that they 

3 take in, for other things. As Mr. Dobi tsch 

4 described the business as money coming in, coming 

5 out, it is fluid. 

6 I note that the company is -- he says 

7 that they only have 15 dollars in the checking 

8 account, but the company is in business. They 

9 are charging a lot of money, hundreds of dollars, 

10 for flights. 

11 They need money to spend for these 

12 flights. There must be, somewhere, a source of 

13 money for them to spend money. So they seem to be 

14 a viable business operation. 

15 But the most, the important point I'm 

16 trying to make is that they haven't established 

17 the -- they haven't fulfilled the burden of proof 

18 to show that they are unable to pay the civil 

19 penalty. 

20 So with that I ask that Your Honor 

21 find that the 46,200 dollars civil penalty is 

22 appropriate, and issue an order accordingly. 

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1 Thank you. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. 

3 Berman. Mr. Dobi tsch, do you have a closing 

4 argument? 

5 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay, thank you, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 I will address Mr. Berman's charging 

8 bunches of dollars for an aircraft. That 

9 particular aircraft has been sitting since 

10 December 28th. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And, Mr. Dobitsch, 

12 I'm going to stop you. 

13 MR. DOBITSCH: I'm sorry. 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Closing argument lS 

15 to address to the Court. 

16 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: So if you have 

18 something you would like to say, you address it 

19 to the Court in an argument of persuasion. 

20 So if you and Mr. Berman want to have 

21 a conversation, after this, and you may or may 

2 2 not, depending on how tired you are, that is 

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1 something different. 

2 But right now it is to me only. You 

3 may proceed. 

4 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay, Your Honor. 

5 I 1 d just like the Court to realize 

6 that even though we might be charging, for the 

7 use of our aircraft, hundreds of dollars per 

8 hour, many times those aircraft just sit on the 

9 ground, especially this time of year. 

10 Our particular aircraft, the Cirrus 

11 that we use for charters, has been sitting there 

12 since December 28th, with the harsh weather. 

13 That doesn 1 t stop me from having to 

14 pay insurance, and maintenance and requirements 

15 that the FAA has for 135. My bills still come in. 

16 Anyway, I also wanted to correct the 

17 record, too. I did, previously, after our initial 

18 informal conference with Mr. Berman, provide 

19 substantial amounts of financial information. 

20 At that time I did submit tax returns 

21 for 1 09, 2010, and 2011. So -- along with other 

22 financial documents --

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: But you understand 

2 that I don't have access to that. 

3 MR. DOBITSCH: You don't have that, I 

4 understand that. 

5 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And your burden was 

6 to bring it to me, today. So I can't base a 

7 decision on what you may have given to Mr. Berman 

8 in the past. 

9 MR. DOBITSCH: Okay. Well, that is my 

1 o error then. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Yes, okay. 

12 MR. DOBITSCH: Anyway, I don't have 

13 too much else to say. But I would still like to 

14 go back to this article written by Mr. Allen. 

15 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And this would be 

16 Exhibit D? 

17 MR. DOBITSCH: Exhibit D, yes. There 

18 was a lot of good wise words. 

19 And I know one of the main focus for 

20 the FAA is safety. And he talks about it quite a 

21 bit in here, and how to manage safety with the 

22 aviation community, and what they are charged to 

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1 regulate. 

2 And I'm just golng to read the last 

3 couple of paragraphs. Though the FAA clearly has 

4 a significant role ln assuring continued 

5 operational safety, everyone bears that 

6 responsibility. 

7 The FAA cannot inspect safety into the 

8 system. It is the duty, of each individual, and 

9 each organization that we certificate, to operate 

10 ln accordance with the established standards. 

11 The Agency's role was to verify that 

12 certificate holders continue to meet standards. 

13 The FAA has a wide range of tools to perform the 

14 functions associated with continued operational 

15 safety. 

16 Because enforcement is the most 

17 obvious tool it is, often, the first to be used. 

18 My message, to the FAA inspector force, or work 

19 force, is that enforcement may not be the most 

20 effective means of achieving compliance. 

21 And, more importantly, it may not be 

22 the best way to achieve our goal of promoting 

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1 safety. In fact, I believe that an enforcement 

2 only approach is counterproductive. 

3 It obscures the goal of achieving 

4 safety compliance. It misses opportunities to 

5 educate. It undermines efforts to develop a 

6 strong safety culture. 

7 It wastes the FAA's and industry 

8 resources, and it dilutes our ability to focus on 

9 real risk. My staff is working on updating 

10 guidance, for our inspectors, that outlines a 

11 more thoughtful approach. 

12 The key question is what best serves 

13 our safety promotion goal. Enforcement should be 

14 reserved for events and incidents that were 

15 intentional disregard, flagrant safety 

16 violations, dangerous complacency, or outright 

17 stupidity, pose a systemic threat to continued 

18 operational safety in aviation. 

19 For an unintentional infraction I want 

20 inspectors to first seek resolution by a positive 

21 corrective action, that most likely would include 

22 additional education and training skills. 

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1 We certainly -- we made an effort --

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: And I'm going to stop 

3 you. As I understand it, you have stopped 

4 reading from Exhibit D? 

5 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes, I'm sorry. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you, go 

7 ahead. 

8 MR. DOBITSCH: Looking at this, 

9 enforcement should be reserved for intentional 

10 disregard, we certainly didn't disregard the 

11 regulations. We were quite mindful of them. 

12 Flagrant safety violations, Mr. Palmer 

13 had flown less than six months, on a check ride 

14 prlor to that. Dangerous complacency, or 

15 outright stupidity. 

16 And I would say none of these fall 

17 under this. For an unintentional infractio~ 

18 which this was, he suggests that inspectors seek 

19 positive resolution by a positive corrective 

20 action, which way back in January of 2012, I 

21 guess, we did try that route, when we met with 

22 Mr. Ference and Mr. Soudas. 

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2 02 

1 And, just in closing, I might not have 

2 shown sufficient financial documentation to help 

3 with this, unfortunately, to the Court. 

4 But I can assure you that fine would 

5 be a disastrous thing. And one of the questions 

6 that did come up, a couple of times, is how we 

7 had sought the FAA's guidance to get us 

8 straightened out, so we would know what we were 

9 doing. 

10 And, you know, why didn't we follow, 

11 go further with it? You know, go to the 

12 management, go to Mr. McCoy, or whoever. 

13 But I think it begs the question, with 

14 the FAA, with their focus supposed to be on 

15 safety, why didn't the FAA, when we had 

16 questions, make an effort to follow-up with 

17 those? 

18 Then all of this would have been 

19 avoided. Thank you. 

20 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. 

21 Dobitsch. Okay, it appears that the case is 

22 ready for a decision. What happens, at this 

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1 point, is that the court reporter will prepare a 

2 transcript with the original exhibits, which I 

3 will make sure I have before anyone leaves the 

4 courtroom. 

5 Typically they have 30 days, she has 

6 3 0 days to file a court transcript. That doesn't 

7 mean that on the 31st day a decision will be 

8 reached. 

9 And I'm going to explain, a little 

10 bit, about that. There is going to be a 

11 substantial delay between the time the court 

12 transcript is filed, and the time that I get a 

13 written decision out. 

14 In part because we have lost about a 

15 third of our staff, through the budget problems 

16 that the government has been experiencing, and we 

17 have not been able to rehire. 

18 As a result we are getting backlogged 

19 in a way that I don't know, has happened in 

20 recent years. 

21 So at this point, and I'm trying to 

22 reschedule some of my cases, to accommodate 

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1 getting decisions out, at this point, I'm about a 

2 year behind in issuing written decisions. 

3 I know that is just heart wrenching. 

4 So what I have been doing, recently, is pushing 

5 out all the new trials into 2016, so that I can 

6 create some windows of opportunity, in my current 

7 schedule, so that I can write the decisions that 

8 people have been waiting for. 

9 You joined that lineup. I just had 

10 another case settle in August of this year, which 

11 means I have some more August time. 

12 But you will be getting this decision 

13 as soon as I possibly can. Which means that you 

14 will get it after, I think, about all my -- I 

15 think you are the eighth case that is, now, in 

16 line for a written decision. 

17 And that means that you are added to 

18 the time that I, also, have to spend on all the 

19 current cases. And my current case load is 

20 almost double what it was last year. 

21 So I don't mean that to be unkind to 

22 anyone. I don't want you to have unrealistic 

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1 expectations that the decision is going to come 

2 out in the next month or so. 

3 But my staff and I are working as hard 

4 as we can, to get these things out. And you will 

5 see things coming out, if you watch, on the web 

6 for decisions. I'm issuing things almost every 

7 day, ln some case or another. 

8 But -- so with that, I will get this 

9 decision out to you as fast as I possibly can, 

10 number one. 

11 Number two, I'm golng to thank 

12 everybody for being here and for testifying. So 

13 Mr. Soudas, Mr. Ference, Mr. Dobitsch, Mr. 

14 Palmer, thank you all for your testimony today. 

15 Mr. Berman, and Mr. Dobitsch, thank 

16 you very much for a very well ordered 

17 presentation of exhibits and evidence. I really 

18 appreciate that. And I thank you both for your 

19 arguments about this particular case. 

20 I will say that it does not appear, to 

21 me, just in the review that I have had, that the 

22 Respondent has made its affirmative defense in 

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1 terms of finances. 

2 And the reason I say that is the way 

3 I have read the case law, I will go back and read 

4 it again. It is the Respondent's burden to bring 

5 to the Court, at the time of the trial, all and 

6 any evidence of financial documentation that 

7 would give a full and complete picture of the 

8 Respondent's financial health or financial 

9 stress. 

10 So at this point, at least, it appears 

11 to me that the defense of the Respondent is more 

12 on the other matters that were raised by the 

13 witnesses and the evidence, which includes the 

14 possibility of potential mitigating 

15 circumstances. 

16 And I will take a very good look at 

17 that. I do want to, also, say that I agree with 

18 all the witnesses, that have testified, that 

19 safety is absolutely paramount for every single 

20 flight that goes out into the air, into the air 

21 space. 

22 And I appreciate everyone focusing on 

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1 that. I don't get a chance, very often, to see 

2 people more than once, since I cover the entire 

3 United States. But it is a pleasure to have 

4 seen, and visited, with all of you in this case. 

5 I do hope that the relationship 

6 between Respondent and the local office has 

7 improved since this time. 

8 I know sometimes different 

9 personalities don't quite work as well as others. 

10 But it lS always helpful to be as sweet, as 

11 possible, when you are working with people who 

12 can help you. 

13 And that is true for everybody who lS 

14 in the safety, in the aviation industry. 

15 So with that I'm going to give you a 

16 few minutes to clean up and get out of the 

17 courtroom, if you would be so kind. 

18 And then I will come back and pick up 

19 materials. But I will need you, Mr. Berman, if 

20 you would be so kind, to come up to the witness 

21 chair and just gather the exhibits, and we will 

22 count them, just to make sure I have them all 

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1 before you leave. 

2 So if you could come up and get them 

3 now, please? We will do this on the record so 

4 that if there is anything missing we can take 

5 care of it right away. 

6 If you would put them in order Mr. 

7 Dobitsch, your time line is up here. So if you 

8 could come up and get it, that would be great. 

9 And you are welcome to watch Mr. Berman do the 

10 count of the exhibits, since you are on the other 

11 side. 

12 And we will make sure that the court 

13 reporter gets a full and complete copy. And I 

14 should, I can tell you what they are, Mr. Berman. 

15 You should have C-2 

16 

17 

18 

19 have it. 

20 

21 

22 

(202) 234-4433 

MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: C-3. 

MR. DOBITSCH: I'm still looking. I 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: C-4. 

MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

JUDGE SULLIVAN: C-5? 

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1 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

2 JUDGE SULLIVAN: C-7? 

3 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: C-8? 

5 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

6 JUDGE SULLIVAN: C-9? 

7 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

8 JUDGE SULLIVAN: You should also have 

9 Respondent's exhibit B, as in boy. 

10 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

11 JUDGE SULLIVAN: D as ln David. 

12 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. Is that the John 

13 Allen's article? 

14 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Correct, one page. 

15 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. It is not labeled 

16 here. 

17 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Why don't I give you 

18 a pen, Mr. Dobitsch, and you can label it as D, 

19 as in dog. And keep the pen for a moment. 

20 There should also be E, exhibit E, is 

21 a 2012 wage --

22 

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MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

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1 JUDGE SULLIVAN: Exhibit F is a 2013 

2 wage, and Exhibit G is 2014. 

3 MR. DOBITSCH: Yes. 

4 JUDGE SULLIVAN: If you would give me 

5 all those exhibits, and my pen back, thank you. 

6 I will thank you both, very much, for 

7 your assistance. I have these for the court 

8 reporter to take as original documents. 

9 We can go off the record now. Thank 

10 you. 

11 (Whereupon, at 2:18p.m., the above12 mentioned matter was concluded.) 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

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.... A adjourned 83:1 33:4,19,20 34:12,19 16:12,16,19 43:6 

A-F-T-E-R-N-0-0-N administered 35:1 35:12 36:10 52:13,18 103:13112:15114:6 

155:1 Administration 2:12,16 53:11 54:17 58:2,8 115:7' 12 130:5,5 

a.m 1:14 4:2 83:4,5 27:1 84:19186:18 60:13,15,17,2161:4 132:3,12 163:4,14 

103:8 Administrative 1:17 81:6 83:8 85:3,9,15 164:15,17 170:16,20 

ability 200:8 administrators 193:17 123:15 139:5 155:4 171:2175:14 

able 11 :4 18:6 66:9 admissibility 20:9 158:21 159:4160:13 answered 177:12 

106:3108:4,5110:12 admission 20:9 41:7 160:18161:15162:1 answers 164:15 

115:8117:8124:10 141:4,11,17143:3 162:17 168:2,16 anticipate 20:13 23:8 

126:5 134:4 136:5 145:1 147:14159:15 172:17 173:3 176:17 24:3 

164:16178:5203:17 160:20 181:10,18,20183:19 anybody 4:19 111 :9 

above-entitled 1:14 admit 16:8 48:5124:15 186:9,11 '12,20 124:9 

83:3 181:6 131:21159:17 160:22 188:10,11 '13,22 anyway 134:18197:16 

above-mentioned 161:18 189:5,7,8,9 192:10 198:12 

154:11 admits 16:9 206:20,20 apologize 156:15 

above-referenced 15:4 admitted39:1141:11 aircraft 15:7,10,16 apparently 152:17 

absence 12:13 41:16,2142:448:10 22:12,21 32:15 34:4 appear 69:15 205:20 

absent 19214 19314 48:15 52:3,8 53:19 35:13,14 61:1,3 68:11 APPEARANCES 2:1 

absolutely 76:5 77:11 54:2 55:3,8 60:4,9 68:12107:19 173:3,6 appeared 7:21 163:12 

90:3,6,20 107:21 97:10124:14141:20 173:8,11,16,17 appears 12:20 17:3 

110:5113:1,16132:9 144:11,16147:22 175:19 185:9 196:8,9 82:9 90:22 91:5 96:18 

138:7 168:18173:21 159:21160:4161:5 197:7,8,10 143:4 179:7 202:21 

206:19 161:10162:5,10 airman 47:20 51:11 206:10 

accelerated 178:8 184:2 66:5 71:8 120:12 applicable 108:1 

acceptable 153:13,16 advice95:17100:17 130:10146:15 application 71:15 105:8 

accepted 97:7 135:9 111:19115:15187:7 airmen 65:6 70:17 apply 38:1 o 58:15 

access 10:22 198:2 affect 13:18 87:14 100:3 104:8 62:22 68:15 

accessible 88:22 89:1 affirmative 205:22 airplane 34:19 appointment 131:14 

accidents 28:16 afford 9:3,3 10:5,6 12:6 airport 32:15 36:10 appreciate 181:1 

accommodate 93:14 133:17 163:10 139:22 178:3,14 205:18 206:22 

203:22 afloat 159:13 178:10 airports 144:2 appreciates 20:3 

account 134:13,15 AFR 49:12 airway 32:16 approach 30:8 39:19 

174:3,7 195:8 afternoon 18:3 19:22 alleged 8:4,10,20 9:4 52:20 54:3 59:3 69:3 

accountant 11 :7 136:4 21:21,21156:17 12:21 13:3 17:8 69:19 70:12 200:2,11 

140:8151:4174:21 181:13 131:11167:22 approached 51:2 

175:17 Agency 5:3 25:15 37:4 Allen 140:18 142:5 approaches 32:11 69:7 

achieve 199:22 83:22 97:14,16 198:14 69:16,20 70:12 

achieving 199:20 200:3 131:18 132:2 Allen's 209:13 appropriate 24:17 

acronym 27:15 Agency's 5:17 20:20 Allentown 1:12 4:8 62:10 63:1,11,12 

acted 112:2 46:14 50:9 63:14 64:5 23:22 27:3,17 29:10 112:14192:9195:22 

action 200:21 201:20 75:9 199:11 32:18 84:21111:10 approval15:1 

active 128:16 agent 34:14 146:17 169:1 approximately 44:6,19 

actual13:21 14:6 aggravating 63:13,21 Allentown's 27:6 105:21 174:22 178:6 

111:16 63:21 189:19 allow 45:8 76:4 approximation 99:21 

add 15:8,9,14,17 16:15 aggravation 78:17 allowed 78:10 79:5 April9:17 11:15 46:8,16 

80:14 124:18148:2 149:21 178:12 103:13 47:19 48:18 49:8,20 

162:19 164:20177:18 ago 17:5101:15 allows 103:4 183:9 66:6,20 67:7 70:2 

added 64:8 204:17 agree 16:1917:1 20:12 alternate 95:18 104:12119:8 121:3 

adding 20:17 35:17,19 87:18124:7 amend 15:1,13 122:9129:10,16 

addition 11117112:6 168:2 206:17 amended 16:3,15,17,21 137:21 167:7 

118:20 139:21 agreed 8:3,20 14:3 17:7 17:8 area 70:7 152:16 

additional74:19 80:18 20:8 amendment 16:10 176:12 

104:19134:8135:22 agreement 17:3 152:9 amount4:17 63:16 areas 22:19 31:16 

158:11 179:4183:10 ahead 6:1 57:3 139:18 66:11158:22160:16 argument 3:21,22 

200:22 192:6 194:9 201:7 amounts 197:19 17:1918:12 97:21 

address 4:18 126:21 air 1:6 2:3 4:4,15 7:3 and/or 17:19 18:3,12 180:4,7181:15196:4 

179:18 196:7,15,18 22:11,14 23:9,13,13 annotate 91:18 196:14,19 

addressed 8:1 58:12 24:4 29:1 32:19 33:3 answer9:17,1810:8 argumentative 106:18 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

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212 

106:21 31:3 84:19 90:15 136:1137:13139:10 200:12 

arguments 205:19 181:22 185:5186:17 140:14144:19148:18 better 114:19 168:1 

arose 163:15 198:22 200:18 207:14 169:3 171:15 200:1 171:2190:17 

arrived 56:12 avoided 132:11 202:19 believing 108:1 beyond 81:7 

article 140:16,18 142:5 aware 113:10169:8,11 bench 7:21 51:2152:15 big 133:3 188:3 

198:14 209:13 169:12,15 170:4 153:9 bill140:7143:19174:11 

articles 144:8 -------··------------ Berman 2:15 5:2,3,7,8 175:18,18 

ascertain 56:9 81:12 B 5:9,10,11,13 6:1,2,7,8 bills 140:3 150:16 

85:22 89:9 147:6 B 29:19 31:18 144:20 6:13,17 9:2210:2 197:15 

asked 14:20 37:12 146:12 147:14,16,21 12:1513:914:11,18 Billy 119:14 

71:14 73:12 89:14,16 182:21 209:9 15:13 16:5,7 17:12,14 bit4:16 9:1814:10 

94:7,12 95:2101:11 B-1-N61:15,19 17:18,20 18:519:10 100:17,18 150:8,10 

101:15105:2,5,10 B1188:16 20:10,11,15 22:5,7 150:15 198:21 203:10 

122:19123:3130:1 back 11:5 21:20 25:10 24:21 25:13,15 26:19 block 70:4 

131:8132:14187:9 34:15 77:19 83:5,6 27:12 28:17 30:6,13 blossom 103:4 

asking 30:14 46:19 86:22 88:14104:12 31:1 38:17 39:2,6,14 Bob 6:2 23:22 115:11 

67:17 70:19 71:10 122:19,22 129:1 40:3,5,7,9 41:4 42:5 170:4 

73:17 93:18102:9 136:6 137:14,21 46:12,22 47:5,11,14 books 25:18 

108:22 110:7 144:18 145:14,18 48:2,16 50:6,14,19 bother 178:12 

aspect93:17192:21 146:4,7,17 152:6,14 51:1,5,18 52:9,20 bottom 9:20 69:21 77:4 

194:15 153:10,11,20155:3 53:1,4,12 54:3,7,10 119:16120:2,7,12 

asserting 137:22 155:13156:11169:11 55:9 57:7 59:3,9,20 184:18 187:12 

163:13 169:15 179:12 181:8 60:10 61:16 64:20 box 92:13 98:22 119:1 

assertion 10:4193:12 181:9 198:14 201:20 65:5,13 74:12,13 131 :1 

assigned 33:1,14 93:12 206:3 207:18 210:5 80:17,20 83:17,19,22 boxes 92:12138:13 

assist5:1817:12 58:22 backlogged 203:18 84:16 87:4 92:20,21 147:3,4 

assistance 126:13 backtrack 37:11 96:4,6,21 97:2,5,11 boy 144:21 146:12 

210:7 backup 175:15 97:14 102:12,22 209:9 

associated 199:14 bailiff 152:14 154:4 103:11106:11,18 Brandon 131:16 

assumed 26:6 84:5 bar 103:7 108:10,12,14113:2 break 18:419:21 21:10 

99:5 112:5 127:19 base 36:9 37:13 38:6,13 113:17 125:4,14,16 21:22 22:1 82:19 

assumes 102:13 43:10,18 71:12121:1 126:8,11 '13, 15,17,19 180:14 

assure 202:4 173:15 198:6 127:5,8 128:10 breaking 153:9 

assuring 199:4 based 29:9 76:12 80:19 133:19 134:7,22 breaks 17:16 18:8 

attempt 132:1 80:21 91:3 125:5,8,15 135:10,20 139:13,15 19:16 

attempts 111:8163:15 126:10 128:11129:20 140:14141:14,16 brief 17:21,22 22:7 83:9 

187:22 132:21 136:12177:20 143:18 144:10 145:20 181:12 

attention43:19 60:12 179:3 147:17,18148:11,21 Briefing 3:9 143:8 

61:5 62:18 baseline 119:2 148:22151:10,19 briefly 155:18 

attest 81:14 basically8:317:618:17 152:3 153:12,14 bring 47:10 89:20 90:4 

attorney 133:17,18 18:21 30:10 31:15 155:9,15,16,19,21,22 126:5 139:3 157:1 

134:21 143:16 75:14 88:2 92:5 93:9 156:7,11,21157:11 198:6 206:4 

attorney's 133:14 95:8,13121:6123:2 158:16 159:18,19 bringing 8:11 158:1 

attributed 57:17 126:6 128:20133:17 161:1 ,3 162:2,3 163:3 brings 35:6 

August 23:3 38:5 45:10 135:2,14 174:9,13 164:21 165:2,4,6 broad 76:20 

45:1887:11102:8 basis 72:8,11,13 76:8,8 166:2,4,14 174:6 broader 68:14,20 69:1 

103:17107:7111:6 76:9 177:14,17 179:3,5 broke 31:15 83:14 

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204:10,11 bears 199:5 181:16,18 183:15 Brown 6:14,15,16 

authorization 70:14 beginning 15:518:18 190:4,6,13,19 191:1 brush 76:20 

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auto 44:11 192:13 193:4,5 194:1 ,3,8, 10 building 21:12,15 

autopilot 70:1,8,14 begs 202:13 196:3,20 197:18 built 170:13 

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availability 154:5 179:18 208:9,14 burden 192:16,18 193:8 

available 152:17 believe 16:8 47:5 70:16 Berman's 196:7 195:17 198:5 206:4 

aviation 2:12,16,19 80:6 81:16 87:12 best 111:19 176:4,14 business 34:12 75:6 

26:21,22 27:18 29:5,9 121:2 131:17133:22 178:9,10 199:22 95:17133:18140:11 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
213 

159:13 172:18,21 25:15 83:22 93:9,12 chance 20:7 128:10 85:18 87:14 91:17,18 

173:2,14 174:6,7 93:15 152:2155:14 156:5 100:3 106:1 183:10 

177:10 178:2192:21 capacity 32:21 85:5 156:14 207:1 chief181:14 

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c 156:17 208:5 changed 17:4 75:6 choose 115:21 -----------------

c 1:10 41:17 42:6 50:21 career32:17100:4 changes 21:7 76:7 chooses 128:13 

118:816522 102:1 charge 173:7 choosing 79:10 

C-112:18 9712 carrier7:3 22:14 23:14 charged 117:1 198:22 chose 10:20 

C-2 3:5 3917,22 40:11 60:21 168:3,16 charging 195:9 196:7 eire led 43:1 

40:12,14,20 41:1,5,8 181:19186:11188:11 197:6 circumstance 164:18 

41:10,1543:1949:10 189:9 Charlie 35:13 circumstances 49:7,9 

52:10 65:18,21 70:6 carriers 60:13 188:22 charter27:20 71:19 63:14,18,22136:8 

97:9 165:20,22 184:3 189:5,7 72:12,14 73:9 81:10 189:20 191:21192:2 

184:8 208:15 carries 181:19 90:14,15,19 91:2,9 206:15 

C-3 3:5 39:17,22 40:11 carrying 36:14 93:13100:3 117:3 Cirrus 15:7 22:12 34:5 

40:17,18,22 41:5,20 case 1:7 7:20 8:13 123:13137:2173:2,3 173:10 197:10 

42:3,22 52:10 65:18 11:1914:1317:4 173:11,12 civi18:1613:717:11 

65:21 165:20 184:3,8 22:10 23:20 25:2,4,4 chartering 100:5 23:19 24:17 32:16 

208:17 25:11 35:6 59:18 61:9 charters 197:11 62:3,6 63:7 188:18,19 

C-4 3:7 52:21 53:2,6,13 62:9,1163:12,13 check8:12 9:8 15:6 192:9,11195:18,21 

53:18 54:1 208:20 73:14 78:18 79:22 22:20 25:10 31:8,9,11 claim 187:12192:11 

C-5 3:7 54:5,12 55:2,7 91:2,6103:20125:12 31:17,18 32:3,10,14 clarification 111:9 

208:22 140:18142:4146:21 32:14 33:12 35:1 122:13 124:17188:1 

C-6 97:12 151:14153:12156:20 37:22 38:1,2,4 43:3,4 clean 4:22 137:8 207:16 

C-73:812:19 59:8,11 159:10174:9 177:9 44:10 46:7 48:18 49:8 cleaned 11:12 

59:21 60:3,8,12 78:16 179:15 183:18189:20 49:16 51:13 58:4 65:7 clear 23:13 50:22 

79:5 188:9 189:3 192:3 193:7,20 65:9,20,20 66:5,11,12 112:16122:10167:15 

190:8 209:2 202:21 204:10,15,19 66:15,20,21 67:3,9,1 0 184:4,7,16185:1,18 

C-7,1 59:5 205:7,19 206:3 207:4 67:2168:6,13 69:1,20 186:5,8,8 188:2 

C-8 3:6 47:1,13,16 48:3 cases 181:14 203:22 70:10 71:8,9,11 72:18 clearance 120:18 

48:5,9,14,17 52:10 204:19 73:11,13 75:15 77:8 cleared 140:6 

66:4,19 68:211911 cat 50:21 118:9 77:20 81:8 88:10 95:7 clearly 104:16 130:2 

119:18,21129:14,15 categories 61:9 62:20 100:12,13 101:2,10 135:19136:17151:15 

184:3,14 209:4 189:12 101:22 102:2 104:5 199:3 

C-9 3:6 50:7,12 51:4,7 cents 134:16 104:12,17,22105:11 clerk 157:17,18,20,22 

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calculate 64:3 190:17 164:17 168:9 185:18 119:2120:22121:6 180:11,20181:15 

calculated 14:6 201:1,10 122:3,9 123:3 129:2 196:3,14 202:1 

calculation 190:22 certificate 33:10,17,22 129:22 130:6,8,1 0 Colley 11 :8 

calendar 15:5 153:13 34:4,20 35:4 68:16,17 146:15,16 147:2,3,7 color 6:15 

183:11 74:21 199:9,12 165:16167:2,4,5,10 column 42:21,22 69:21 

call23:19 70:12 75:13 certificated 33:21 58:3 174:12182:21183:2 combine 67:9,20 

83:21 87:2,13 89:2 173:4 184:19,20 185:7,8,9 combined 66:16 

91:3 93:6,16 96:1 certification 33:10 58:9 185:13,15,20186:1 come 21:20 25:19,20 

98:7,18111:14112:3 71:22 72:2 201:13 74:7 98:22 117:9,19 

112:14115:11122:2 certifications 28:14 checked 21:13 56:9,13 127:12 129:19 130:20 

122:13,19 123:2 certified 28:15 67:19,22 68:2 70:15 135:2142:17143:14 

124:10 136:9179:14 Certifying 27:22 90:1192:12101:18 144:3152:6153:10 

called 26:5 32:19 33:14 CFR 13:3,4 118:22 138:3,14 155:13156:11157:15 

36:22 73:12 84:4 99:4 chair82:12 119:6 147:4184:22 164:6167:21174:4 

121:16,19 122:4 145:14146:8155:11 checking 134:13,14 175:4 177:21 189:21 

123:3 127:18 143:8 155:12 158:8 207:21 174:3175:16195:7 197:15 202:6 205:1 

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calls7:1022:17,19 challenging 93:16 38:13 69:17 70:18 comes 25:2 37:14 67:2 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
214 

93:16 150:2171:16 completely 101:7 199:4,14 200:17 country 176:13 

174:10,11 complex 124:8 contrary 77:12 couple 11:11115:19 

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170:17 166:21168:4172:14 convened 4:7 coupled 70:12 

coming 7:20 12:4,5 184:18 185:2186:14 conversation 55:16,17 course 32:17 35:20 

165:17 174:8195:4,4 188:6 199:20 200:4 57:11,14 80:5 81:15 52:16 55:10 90:14 

205:5 complied 183:7 184:5 86:1 87:19 89:7 90:9 130:15,18 131:6 

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command 70:15 comply 58:10 72:6,22 104:1,3106:6111:5 138:21 142:12 153:6 

comment 114:1 183:6 196:21 195:1 

comments 100:14,21 compromise 9:2 cooperative 137:16 court 5:21 8:11 12:12 

commercial60:21 compromised 163:9 copies 39:4 47:11 53:2 20:2 39:4,9,11,20,21 

99:18123:13133:13 computer 153:3 54:8 59:8 88:7,11 40:4,747:4,1251:2 

189:5,7 concept 37:13,20 89:9,10,14,21,22,22 53:1,2 54:7,7 59:7,7 

commission 17:7 concerned 110:15 90:8,10 91:13 95:8 119:7141:5,8142:17 

committed 8:4 9:1 188:21 131:6,7144:1,4 145:19 146:2,4 

commonly 33:11 concluded 210:12 145:19,22 151:4 152:14153:1,8,18 

communicate 118:3 conclusion 24:15 154:3 155:14,18,20 154:4155:8 157:14 

123:22 concurrent 94:4 156:1,5 157:12158:6 157:17,22 196:15,19 

community 198:22 conditions 76:4 101:17 copy 30:7,20 39:1,20 197:5 202:3 203:1,6 

companies 27:20 101:19 40:4,7 47:8,13 51:3,3 203:11 206:5 208:12 

company 10:5 16:20 conduct 37:5 172:21 53:3 54:9 77:21 88:8 210:7 

32:19 71:19 73:10 173:18 183:19 88:18,19,20,21,22 Court's 19:20,20 51:3 

76:12,12 80:1 81:19 conducted 23:4 42:14 89:4,5,6,8, 13 90:5,12 80:19,22 125:6,15 

142:2151:1174:11 43:5 46:1 77:13 94:7104:10157:13 158:6 

176:20,21 177:6 conducting 92:15 157:18,19,20,22 courthouse1:1121:15 

179:19 192:22194:18 conference 9:21 131:11 158:1,3 208:13 courtroom 1:10 6:6 

194:22 195:6,8 131:14133:7,9 corner 120:3 82:2183:11152:18 

compare 74:6 89:9,21 134:20 143:17148:21 correct9:12 28:19 33:7 153:1 203:4 207:17 

90:8 197:18 34:10 36:3 38:19 39:2 cover29:16121:8 

compared 92:10 confused 57:16 79:19 41:3 43:11 44:1 45:2 207:2 

comparing 92:7 95:15 111:13165:13,15,16 48:19 52:15 61:20 covered 32:9 63:3 

comparison 91:13 187:2 62:17 64:1,4,15,19 121:6,14189:14 

92:17 confusing 147:1 66:3,13,18,22 79:6 covers 22:14 

compelling 12:13 confusion 80:12 147:10 86:14 87:15 91:21 crash 176:9 

compensation 161:17 163:16 165:8,18 108:21 110:10,19 crashed 176:10 

181:20 166:15,19,20,22 111:3112:9116:5 create 204:6 

competency 66:5 87:14 169:21 187:1,3,4,5 120:15 122:20 129:15 credit 176:6,7,8 

100:3,3101:12104:8 consider 78:22 79:13 129:16140:22151:2 crew 62:1,1 ,6 

107:17118:11120:12 79:17138:13151:20 151:3163:22165:11 cross 3:14 81:1 96:8 

130:10 182:21 185:8 considered 79:3 166:18 167:17 169:9 125:15 179:4 

185:15 constantly 174:7,8 171:12172:1,3,15 cross-examination 

com petency/proficie ... constituents 93:11 173:20 176:18,19 64:22 65:3 87:7,9 

65:7 70:17 146.15 construed 191:15 177:2,7191:1 192:3,4 102:22 103:5 108:10 

complacency 200:16 consult 107:7 193:7197:16 209:14 108:13 165:3,5 

201 :14 contact73:17 74:1 76:1 corrective 200:21 177:20 

Complainant 26:6 80:9 201 :19 cross-examine 128:11 

41:15 42:3 48:14 52:7 contacted 73:9 correctly 117:19 crossed 103:11 

54:1 55:7 60:8 84:5 contain 59:16 correlates 50:13 culture 200:6 

Complainant's 3:2,21 contains 59:11 corroborated 184:1 currency 30:5 31:16 

complaint 2:11 15:2 contend 134:2 counsel2:17 5:4 26:5 37:8,9,14 43:16,21 

16:2,15,18,20 17:9 CONTENTS 3:1 26:16 59:7 83:12,12 44:8107:14111:2 

complete 44:16 77:20 context13:16194:21 84:4,13 99:4 115:20 117:3119:2171:8 

82:10 96:19 125:18 continue 10:11 30:22 145:6,14 155:9 182:3 

179:8 206:7 208:13 122:7135:5151:18 count 207:22 208:10 currency/proficiency 

completed 11:5 42:13 199:12 counterproductive 117:2 

43:10 44:18 49:20 continued 80:11 117:7 200:2 current22:16 23:1 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
215 

44:21 45:9 49:17 204:2,7 205:6 105:18117:17 80:21 81:2,4 83:12 

56:10,14 58:14 62:13 declaring 72:4 difficult 124:9 138:22 87:7,8,10 92:18 94:5 

62:15 165:9166:17 deemed 193:16 140:10 150:19 162:15 96:7,9 97:15 98:2,8 

182:12 183:21 184:9 defend 142:17 difficulties 159:12 98:14,16,20 99:14,16 

186:9 188:14 204:6 Defendants 79:19 175:8 102:17103:21104:2 

204:19,19 defense 8:9 9:10 12:3 difficulty151:16178:13 107:4,5108:7109:18 

currently 15:3 34:5 180:2 205:22 206:11 dike 174:16 113:5,6,8,20114:11 

134:13 defenses 8:18 9:5 dilemma 104:18 114:13,14115:1,4,5 

customary 81:10 90:1 163:5 dilutes 200:8 115:16,20118:7,21 

130:20 defensive 25:2,4 dire 158:17 119:14 122:8 125:4,7 

customers 176:2 deficiencies 73:2 direct3:14 26:18 73:17 125:10,12,21 126:4,9 

definite 147:11 74:1,20 76:22 78:15 126:22 127:3,4,6,12 

D definitive 164:16 80:19 84:15 96:4 127:17 128:3,4 

D 3:9 10:17 140:21 delay 203:11 99:15102:21 103:2 141:22 143:1 144:17 

141:1,11,13143:2 deleted 137:2 103:20 115:22 125:5 145:10 153:15,21 

144:11,15198:16,17 delightful6:12 128:19 152:2 164:20 155:9,11156:6,10,13 

201:4 209:11,18 demand 22:14 29:1 179:4 157:13,16 158:9 

D-0-B-1-T-S-C-H 128:3 demonstrated 49:12 directly 111:18 160:14 161:15 165:3 

D.C 1:2 demonstrates 30:18 director 140:19 165:7 166:7 177:17 

danger 182:13 151:16 disagree 16:21 179:6,9,13,16,20 

dangerous 200:16 denies 16:9 disappointed 12:2 180:1,6,8,18,21 193:1 

201 :14 DEPARTMENT 1:1 disastrous 202:5 195:3196:3,5,11,13 

data 74:7 dependent 75:22 discern 138:4 196:16 197:4 198:3,9 

date 36:1 40:20,21 depending 142:11 discovered 55:13,18 198:12,17 201:5,8 

45:16 50:16 55:18,22 175:8 196:22 discretion 176:22 195:1 202:21 205:13,15 

70:4,1177:7,8 85:13 depends 173:11 discuss 57:5 80:4 208:7,16,18,21 209:1 

87:12,16,17 120:22 describe 33:18 55:15 81:22 155:15156:3 209:3,5,7,1 0, 12, 15,18 

122:14 129:16 75:3 discussed 20:11 75:16 209:22 210:3 

dated 40:22 41 :1 46:16 described 77:9 195:4 97:10,13 docket 1:6 4:5 83:8 

47:19 51:10 53:9 66:1 designated 60:14 discussing 86:10 88:4 155:5181:11 

70:6 144:21 desk137:11156:18 discussion 7:19 document 40:18 41 :12 

dates 44:14 66 2 78:3 destroyed 176:8 discussions 24:5 85:14 41:22 47:17 48:11 

dating 13:1 determination 90:13 dispute 4:18 8:16 12:20 51:8 52:4 53:7,20 

David 10:18 143:2 188:8 13:12 17:10 20:13 54:13 55:4 59:13 60:5 

209:11 determine 35:22 22:11183:18 61:13 78:7 120:3 

day 38:6,7 43:7 45:10 determined 188:12 disregard 200:15 144:12 145:10 159:22 

45:10,17115:11 189:18 191:20 201:10,10 161:6162:6 

117:8122:1,2,5134:7 determining 101:12 distinct 7:22 documentary 192:14 

164:10 168:10 174:16 develop 200:5 distress 10:12 193:18 documentation 85:20 

203:7 205:7 device 101:16 district 24:1,6 27:4,6,13 86:13,19 87:22 88:2 

days 122:11 178:11 devices 187:17 56:17 57:5 92:6 94:18 95:14 

203:5,6 dialogue 56:16 divided 64:8 182:19 193:10,11,14194:11 

deadline 23:1 difference 67:12,15,16 Dobitsch 2:4 3:7,19 202:2 206:6 

deal90:18113:11152:7 68:5 106:4 138:4 6:20,21 7:2,2,8, 13,17 documents 13:10 36:17 

dealing 93:16 149:22 differences 67:2 68:6 8:6 9:9,12,15 10:9,13 74:5 109:16 110:3 

dealings 32:18 85:2 different 10 16 12:17 11:3,1712:814:19 192:18,19 197:22 

dealt 29:4 13:1 29:20 32:6,8 15:19,21 16:7,14,22 210:8 

December 16:3 36:8 40:2062:1966:191:8 18:10,16 19:4,14,17 dog 209:19 

38:14 49:19 55:18 91:17,17,18 92:14,15 19:18 21:2,5 24:22 doing 7:9 18:11 33:11 

56:2,4130:19196:10 100:9,11 102:20 25:7,9 30:20 34:13 81:12117:13125:22 

197:12 110:14 144:2 152:16 36:9 37:6 38:22 41:6 135:20 142:19 177:6 

decided 130:13 170:2 156:22164:8 178:16 41:9,19 47:7,9 48:4,7 178:9 194:22 202:9 

decision 108:4 122:17 186:3187:11,11 50:15,18 51:20,22 204:4 

123:5133:1,2136:12 191:14,18193:21 53:10,14,16 54:15,17 dollar 63:15 64:4,11 

198:7 202:22 203:7 194:6 197:1 207:8 54:20,22 55:12,20 134:2 140:7 

203:13 204:12,16 differentiate 105:19 56:8 57:8 59:22 60:2 dollars 11:9 23:20 

205:1,9 106:2110:9,12 64:21 65:1,4,16,17 24:17 63:8,8 64:7,8,9 

decisions 168:8 204:1 differently 100:18 69:11,13 73:5,8 74:9 64:12 133:20 134:16 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
216 

135:15,17,18139:7,9 either 17:19 25:5 43:5 events 128:22 200:14 47:16 48:3,5,9,14,17 

148:12,15,20150:12 45:22 105:18 106:2 everybody 82:20 124:7 49:10 50:7,8,12,17,21 

158:22160:13161:17 132:7183:21191:8 205:12 207:13 51:4,7,19 52:2,7,21 

173:9,17 174:3 175:1 elaborate 29:7 everyone's 152:13 53:2,6, 13,18 54:1 ,4,8 

178:4195:7,9,21 elicit 13:13 177:9 54:12 55:2,7 59:4,8 

196:8197:7 emai195:17,18 evidence 12:7,1413:20 59:11,2160:3,8,12 

dome 38:14 em ails 80:9 22:22 36:15 41:5,16 61 :6,6 62:19 66:4 

double 8:12 204:20 emergency 68:11 42:4 48:3,15 51:19 70:6 76:22 78:16 79:5 

dramatically 176:11 employee139:5151:2 52:8 53:13 54:2 55:8 119:10,12,21120:17 

drop 191:7 159:2,3,6176:18 59:21 60:9 97:7 98:4 140:21141:1,4,11,13 

dropped 176:11 194:13 109:1 127:9 144:16 141:17 143:1,2 

dropping 145:1 Endless 1 :6 2:3 4:4,14 160:4,22 161:10,19 144:10,15,19,20 

due 3812 45:3,6,14 7:3 22:11 23:9,13 162:10184:3186:6 146:12147:14,16,21 

71:11 73:13 77:7 78:3 24:4 32:19 33:3,4,18 192:15 205:17 206:6 157:7 158:14,18,19 

78:6 81:8129:22 33:20 34:12,19 35:12 206:13 158:20 159:9,11 '15 

159:12 165:16175:6 36:10 52:12,18 53:10 evidenced 70:4 159:17,20 160:3,7,10 

175:18,20 54:17 58:2,8 60:15,17 ex-husband 77:5 160:10,11,20161:4,9 

duly 26:6 84:5 99:5 61:4 81:5 83:7 85:3,8 exact 13:14 161:12,14162:4,9,13 

127:19 85:15 139:5 155:4 exactly 75:4 91:20 162:13165:19,20 

duties 27:16,19 28:9 158:21 159:4160:13 110:19 133:9 184:3,8,14188:9,17 

33:8,9 160:17 161:15162:1 exam 72:8,13 189:3,12 192:20 

duty 36:18 199:8 162:17 172:17176:17 examination 26:18 198:16,17 201:4 

dwindle 139:7 181:10,20183:19 29:14,17 42:14 44:10 209:9,20 210:1,2 

dwindled 178:7 186:8,12,20 188:10 45:4,5,15,21 49:22 exhibits 10:15,16,19 

188:13 189:8192:10 62:16 84:15 99:15 12:18 20:8,8,12,16,16 

E enforcement 58:22 102:21 103:2 113:7 20:18,20 21:5 38:18 

E 1:16 3:10154:7 157:7 142:7,16 199:16,19 118:5128:19165:10 38:22 39:17 40:2,11 

158:14,18,19,20 200:1,13 201:9 182:12,20184:13,15 47:3 50:13 52:10 65:6 

159:9,12,15,17,20 enforcements 137:7 188:15 65:10 82:11 96:22 

160:3,7 176:16 engine 34:5 examinations 13:15 97:6,9119:6129:12 

209:20,20 enjoy 178:13,14 36:2 42:9 43:22 44:3 158:12 166:8 176:16 

E-X-H-1-B-1-T-S 3:3 enjoyed 178:17 171:9182:4184:6 179:11,17 203:2 

earlier 70:16 72:20 enquire 26:17 84:14 186:3 205:17 207:21 208:10 

77:10116:1123:12 99:14193:12 examine 36:6 102:20 210:5 

125:22135:2117420 enquiry 80:19,22 85:17 examined 26:7 84:6 existing 150:16 

early 37 20 38:14 71:22 90:2125:6,15 163:13 99:6 127:20 expect 117:14 

74:20 77:10 78:13 ensure 182:8 examiner 101:21 102:4 expectations 205:1 

140:15152:1153:9 ensuring 181:21 105:2 expedition 181:2 

153:10 enter 141:13 examiners 100:9,11 expenses 173:20,22,22 

easily 156:17 entire 14:9 207:2 example 13:11 37:22 174:4195:2 

Eastern 2:18 5:4 environment 139:2 38:1179:16101:13 experience 29:4,12 

economic 162:15 162:16 101:14143:22 76:9,11 80:2113:11 

edification 152:13 equal64:11 exams 23:7 116:15117:12123:9 

educate 200:5 equipment 76:13 153:3 Excerpt 3:9 experienced 130:3 

education 200:22 error124:15138:8,10 excess 11:8100:1 experiencing 203:16 

Edward1:11 138:12,17 198:10 exchanged 38:22 expert 168:1 0 

effect8:19131:20 escape 68:19 excuse 5:8 25:22 37:10 expiration 122:5,6 

185:4 especially 142:5176:12 45:13 86:17 125:4 expire 49:15 

effective 199:20 177:22 197:9 185:5 195:2 expires 49:13 

effectively 72:13 ESQ 2:15 excused 82:15 96:19 explain 18:15 37:17 

efficiency 20:5 essentially 12:4 141 :3 125:19155:12179:8 66:9116:19117:9 

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
218 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
219 

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101:17,18 107:16 201 :20 143:9,13,21 144:5,9 133:21 134:15,19 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
220 

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landings 183:4 193:21 203:9 major 17:10 199:20 204:11,13,17 

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language16:16185:19 local140:1 207:6 142:13149:22159:13 medical76:16 

lapsed 37:8,9 location 55:19 194:18 meet 5:13 93:10 134:22 

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77:10,16,17 78:4,9,13 long 27:5 76:9 84:22 management33:10 meeting 54:19 56:18 

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175:12,12 153:3171:14 187:21 202:12 member 62:1,2,6 

late/grace 37:20 longer 118:3 manager 111:16,21 members 168:11 

latitude 38:10 look8:14 16:12 30:19 112:2,6169:1,9,12,16 mention94:1,15134:6 

law 1:17 193:7,20 206:3 69:21 70:5 86:5 91:12 170:5 mentioned 69:14 81:5 

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179:11 208:1 134:15 135:22 136:11 marked 39:15 40:1,11 mid 189:21 

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leaving 104:17 153:8 looking 10:14 61:17 4 7:3,16 48:2,13 50:7 mind 94:3121:6 167:11 

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120:5 124:5,12 85:22 91:14,15,19,20 53:22 54:12 55:6 mine 125:9 

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let's 7:1812:15 17:15 208:18 material11:112:13 139:18 166:4 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
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minutes 21:11 56:11 4:14 7:3 22:11 23:9 91:11100:15105:5 141:15142:2,22 

82:19 83:2 154:10 23:13 24:4 32:19 33:3 105:19106:3110:11 144:9147:20159:19 

180:10,17,21181:3 33:4,19,20 34:12,19 116:16123:14163:9 161:2,3 162:3 

207:16 35:12 36:10 52:12,18 169:6 objections 14:20,22 

misinterpreted 124:15 53:11 54:17 58:2,8 new 16:16 27:22 28:14 51:22 53:16158:16 

missed 101:7 60:15,1761:481:6 43:10,17 117:1 objects 152:7 

misses 200:4 83:7 85:3,9,15 139:5 131:17137:14204:5 obscures 200:3 

missing 208:4 155:4158:21 159:4 newly 28:15 observation 6:9 

mistake 122:15 124:14 160:13,18 161:15 Nice 5:13 obvious 199:17 

131:22 133:5 150:1 162:1,17 172:17 night 103:6 obviously 95:18 132:16 

mistakes 1479 176:17 181:10,20 nodding 8:7 occasion 74:22 144:6 

Mister 82:4 183:19 186:9,12,20 non-current 43:15 occupation 26:20,21 

misunderstanding 188:10,13 189:8 non-precision 32:12 84:17 

23:16 24:7 57:17,20 192:10 69:19 occur 34:22 73:15 75:4 

79:21 mouth 103:9 non-responsiveness 170:7 

misunderstood 23:10 move141:4,13144:22 170:9 occurred 12:22 44:5,6 

mitigating 23:17 57:21 147:16 non-scheduled 22:15 57:18 63:464:11,16 

63:17,22 78:22 79:4 moved 76:18 124:22 noon 21:10,17 103:17189:15 

79:13,17 189:19 moving 141:10147:13 normal90:14 occurrences 28:16 

191:21 192:2 206:14 159:14 160:19 normally 63:15 64:5 occurs 71:22 

mitigation 78:17 80:15 multiple 81:11 132:8 note 17:3 20:15 39:21 October 13:2 23:5 

moment 9:15 12:16 multiplied 64:9 40:6 47:12 51:1 52:22 35:12 36:17,19 46:2 

61:11126:19209:19 multiply 189:22 54:6 59:6 70:2 78:4 52:14 58:3 64:18 

moments 17:5 103:1 103:15 147:10153:21 136:20 

Monday 76:1 ---- !L ___ 157:16186:11189:3 offenses 13:11 

money 150:8,11,15 N 1:11 192:12195:6 offer 13:10 20:19 38:18 

161:21172:22173:19 name 3:14 6:14 26:12 noted 10:15 43:17 41:4 48:2 51:18 53:12 

174:4,6 175:21176:5 26:13,14,15 47:19 114:5144:10147:21 59:20 94:13,16 135:7 

176:22 177:5 194:19 51:10 84:9,10,11 notes 28:3 95:22 126:5 135:16 149:9151:21 

195:2,4,9,11, 13,13 96:1199:9,10127:22 notice 1:14 offered 79:19 80:3 97:7 

monies 174:7,8 128:1,2 168:20 noticed 56:6 97:10,13 127:9 

monitoring 73:11 named 34:3 35:3 61:3 November35:13121:2 148:20 184:2 

mont 43:18 narrative 7:9 98:13 121 :3,4 122:3 130:19 offers 149:4,12 

month 11:12 15:6 23:2 125:22 128:5,9,18 144:21 145:9 146:18 office 1:2 2:17 5:4 10:1 

23:3,6 36:19 37:13,13 144:18 148:2 162:19 number4:5 50:14 63:11 24:1,6 27:4,6,14 

37:19,19,20 38:2,6,7 177:18 65:6 69:16 83:8 56:17 57:5 93:9 94:4 

38:8,9,12,13,13 43:10 nature 8:21 13:17 22:14 108:21110:1,6120:7 137:15 207:6 

45:7,8,17 70:10 71:12 68:19 140:7155:5156:14 officer 93:4 

71:12 72:13 77:6,10 necessarily 34:17 156:21169:22181:11 Oh78:11 

77:10,16 78:4,5,10,13 177:5 190:17 205:10,11 okay 5:20,22 6:4,18 

78:13121:1,1143:10 necessary 30:2,4 numbered 65:18 7:15,18 9:1410:14 

167:15 175:7,10 155:19 189:1 numbering 156:20 11:16,22 12:8 14:12 

183:8,10 205:2 need 13:10 30:19 38:1 numerous 167:5 18:1,919:4,14 20:14 

month/base 37:19 39:3 49:10 55:22 74:8 NY 2:20 21:1,8 24:20 28:8 

months 36:21 49:13 74:19 76:18 86:12 30:17 32:2 40:5 47:2 

105:15,22 107:14 104:17 124:10126:2 .. 0 47:7 65:14 66:9 68:22 

120:21121:3130:14 128:8141:7156:1 o'clock 153:12,21 69:6,7 73:5 78:14 

133:13,15 135:18 173:18 178:12179:18 O&N 175:19 80:17 82:2,3 83:6 

136:14 167:2,8,9 192:18195:11207:19 oath 146:10 158:10 87:19 88:8,17,22 

183:12,16,17,17 needed 24:10 49:16 193:16 89:15 96:10,15 97:15 

201 :13 76:17 92:1167:2,4 object127:8,10 141:16 101:22 102:14 105:16 

morning 5:2 6:21 7:1 needing 167:9 147:18 115:4118:15120:6 

12:18 14:1918:2 needs 22:1,4 75:5 objection 15:20,21 16:1 120:16121:5,18 

19:2121:1483:10,14 93:11 41:7,1848:6,7 51:21 126:18,22127:2,11 

116:1128:15 negative 100:16 53:15 54:21,22 60:1,2 136:13138:20 139:17 

motion 16:1 48:5 neither 78:17 102:12,15 103:10,14 141:9,14 142:10 

motions 14:15 neutral112:14 106:11,20113:17,18 149:5 150:13151:17 

Mountains 1 :6 2:3 4:4 never 71:16 72:17 114:2,5 126:20 127:6 153:20155:21156:4 

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166:10,12 167:14 OPS 35:2 68:17 58:4 62:12 64:18 66:6 pass 129:2 

172:8 177:13 179:2 optimistic 178:18,21 70:18 71:6,9 81:6,9 passed 15:6129:11 

180:2,9,18 190:6,14 option 7:11 79:9,9 87:12,21 88:1,6 89:12 passenger 9:2 36:13 

192:5,7,7 193:5 194:2 134:20 89:14 94:5 98:10,18 passengers 132:19 

194:9 196:5,16197:4 oral22:18 31:17 37:5 98:19,2199:3,11,17 163:9 172:22181:19 

198:9,11201:6 43:1,5,8,10 44:6 67:3 103:18107:2 108:15 182:9 188:4 

202:21 67:9,15,16,21 68:5,7 113:9,21 115:6 passing 184:13,14 

on-line 134:14 68:8,9,13,20 69:1 119:16125:17129:2 patiently 174:21 

once 25:20 38:10 76:6 71:172:8,13101:2 129:11,20,21130:1,4 Pause 16:13127:1 

137:6 138:21 145:18 110:13129:2138:4 130:7 132:5 133:11 166:6,11 

207:2 182:20 185:21 135:5 136:10 137:6 pay 134:5 140:3 150:16 

ones 39:10 67:6 orally 193:16 137:21 138:2,6 145:6 159:12 162:16172:22 

ont 22:10 orals 101:6 145:7,9 146:16 173:19 174:4 175:21 

open-ended 103:3 order 3:8 58:20,21 164:11 165:9166:16 178:5192:11193:13 

114:8 59:15 89:8 195:22 167:2,4 168:8178:20 194:12,17 195:18 

opening 3:2 14:17 208:6 183:19184:8186:6 197:14 

17:19,20 18:12,20 ordered 205:16 188:13 201:12 205:14 paycheck 140:2 

19:7 22:6,8 25:1,5 organization 199:9 Palmer's 36:18 45:19 paying 150:6 177:1 ,4 

97:18,19,22 original9:16 137:15 77:6131:7172:6 182:9 

openings 17:16 21:3 203:2 210:8 Papa 35:13 payment 148:20 

openly 124:14 originally 56:8 133:11 papers 74:4 153:5 payments 135:17 

operate 22:12 132:20 Orlandi 134:21 paperwork 94:3,5,7 175:13 

137:21 199:9 other's 153:7 95:19104:17106:8 pays 176:17 

operated 35:12,22 outcome 77:21 118:22 123:3 130:6,8 pecking 11:10 

operating 60:22 62:12 outlines 200:10 130:22 131:1 136:19 pen 153:3 156:19 

117: 1 outright200:16 201:15 137:5 209:18,19 210:5 

operation 36:14 58:16 outside 152:17 paragraph 15:1 ,2, 14 penalties 24:17 61:8 

195:14 overdue 23:6 16:8,10 penalty 8:10,1713:7,22 

operational 199:5,14 overruled 144:10 paragraphs 142:6 14:617:11 23:19 62:3 

200:18 147:21 148:5 199:3 62:6 63:7 188:18,19 

operations 22:15 33:1 oversight 27:19 28:1,11 parameters 32:9 192:9,11195:19,21 

33:5 36:9 73:18 74:2 29:1 141:21 pendency 151:18 

84:18 85:6,8 88:5 owe 11:7 paramount 206:19 Pennsylvania 4:8 29:10 

92:14 93:19182:5 Pardon 112:20 84:21 

188:22 p --------- part 8:9 20:18 22:13 people 12:17 19:9,9 

operator 7:4 29:9 33:21 P-A-L-M-E 99:11 27:21 28:13,18,22 21:11174:19175:2,5 

34:1 58:3 60:22 61:2 P-R-0-C-E-E-D-1-N -G-S 29:5,12,14,17 35:14 176:13 204:8 207:2 

68:15 70:13 71:19 4:1 37:14 42:8,9 43:21 ,22 207:11 

72:3,9,15,20 75:10 p.m 155:2181:7,8 60:13,22 68:16 71:1,8 perceived 12:7 

76:6 77:22 81:11 88:9 210:11 101:4106:16118:16 perfect 82:18 

88:10,14 89:2,10 PA 1:12 2:5 36:11 168:2,15,17 171:7,8 perform 199:13 

90:16 91:2,9,21 92:1 page 9:18,20,20 60:12 181:18182:1,5 performed 43:8 66:6 

93:13,17 95:9,10 61:17,18 62:1863:3 183:20 188:21 189:6 70:3119:8183:11 

139:1 77:5,5 78:16119:16 189:6,9 203:14 performing 33:12 

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88:12,15 189:12 190:7 209:14 22:20 59:18 63:21 77:9116:10120:19 

operators 27:19,22 pages 9:19 59:5,12,14 78:18 80:15 85:13 130:17131:5151:5 

28:12,15 29:1,2 90:17 61:6,6,10 89:3 90:21,22 91:1 171:12,14 

90:19 91:15 189:5,6,6 paid 136:4 139:9 94:16 95:12 120:17 periodic 33:16 

189:8 160:13,16 161:21 121:6 122:2 126:9 periodically 58:6 

opinion 146:20 150:11 174:19 192:22194:14 143:15178:8189:19 135:10 

159:9 Palmer3:18 7:1415:4 193:21 196:9 197:10 periods 22:2 

opportunities 200:4 22:12,16 34:8,18 205:19 permanently 76:19 

opportunity 20:3 74:18 35:16,22 40:15,16,19 parties 4:7 14:1 20:5,7 person 20:2 35:3 73:17 

94:17 97:17,21 42:7,13 43:14,18,20 74:18 83:10 132:8 75:10,15 95:18 

151:21 204:6 44:21 45:8 47:20 155:7 181:14,15 111:19117:22132:2 

opposed 13:22 109:3 49:16 51:1152:12 Partly 13:9 175:3176:21 178:19 

115:15 55:12 56:10,11 57:8 party 112:14193:17 personal 18:8 22:3 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

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112:11 208:3 36:15130:22131:2 projected 178:4 

personalities 207:9 pleasure 100:22 207:3 presenting 83:15 93:15 prolonged 22:20 

personally 140:3 plus 101:22135:15 95:14 promoting 199:22 

personnel123:15 173:10 president 7:3 34:13 promotion 200:13 

persuading 19:6 POl 33:6,8,9 159:7160:17161:22 pronounce 96:11 

persuasion 196:19 point 7:7 8:14,17 13:8 162:17 192:22 proof 138:22 192:17 

pertaining 65:19 66:21 97:16 103:15 presume 38:21 195:17 

pertinent58:10 59:17 109:22 133:3 137:8 pretty 188:2 proper 169:19 

71:2 85:21 142:4,20 141:6156:3167:22 previous 49:21 63:6 properly 138:13 

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32:14 34:1 ,2,3,3,6,7,9 pose 200:17 principal33:1 ,5 73:18 provide 11:4 31:22 33:9 

35:1,3,16,21 37:21 poses 182:13 74:2 80:9 81:17 84:18 77:2187:2188:1,10 

38:11 44:11 61:2,3 position 17:6 19:7 64:5 85:6,8 88:4 92:14 89:17,20 91:21 95:7,9 

62:1370:1371:11 185:16 192:1 93:4,18117:1 150:5155:14172:12 

72:7,12,12 73:9,12 positive 100:15,21 principals 90:19 187:14197:18 

75:5 76:7,17 80:2 101:1200:20201:19 printing 154:5 provided 36:18 76:3 

88:13 90:4 91:2,9 201:19 prior 38:6 73:1,2 85:7 88:9 

95:10,11 99:18 possession 91 :8 85:1192:17116:13 Providing 10:2 

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123:13 164:12171:8 possible 90:7 109:11 181:13 201:14 189:2 

pilot's 88:15 109:13 177:8 207:11 private 29:4 publication 143:7,14 

piloting 116:14 possibly 38:15 92:15 privately 11:2 published 143:10,11 

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place 37:8 38:3 44:13 pre-flight 42:22 problems 203:15 put4:1913:16,20 25:13 

56:7 81:15 86:1 87:20 pre-hearing 46:14,15 procedures 68:11 25:18 73:6 135:4 

183:3 50:9,10 proceed 65:2 128:17 136:19 140:13 208:6 

placed 87:3 pre-marked 54:4 59:4 197:3 putting 103:8174:15 

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plain 167:3 preference 18:2,8 proceedings 141:20 ---- Q 

Plaintiff 19:11 19:16,18,20,20 process 71:21,22 qualifications 189:1 

plan 14:9 144:22 preferred 114:21 produce 86:15,19 89:18 qualified 62:13,15 

156:11157:1 preliminary 8:1 14:15 104:9171:17172:9 182:9,11 

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planning 7:9 98:6 prepare 105:18 203:1 produced 137:4 192:19 quality 12:2 

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plant 68:11 present 14:5,13 46:7 49:12 66:11,12,15,19 question 20:6 28:9 

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please 15:12 22:2 26:9 89:5,6,14 94:11,13,17 118:10182:22185:6 67:20 71:19 73:17 

26:12 61:12 84:8,9 97:1 98:5 185:12,20 81:2 87:13 90:11 

99:8,9 127:21,22 presentation 95:19 proficient 138:6 92:22 94:3 102:13 

138:11 146:1158:9 205:17 program 33:15 58:22 103:6105:5106:21 

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Neal R Gross and Co., Inc. 

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114:8,19115:3 really 11:4,18 22:10 187:8,15 106:9 111:2 123:6 

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149:7 150:21 175:14 121:16 122:10 132:6 recurrent 29:17 38:2 136:12,13 138:17 

177:12178:1184:10 132:10135:3140:10 redesign 107:3 167:13,16168:1,4,17 

190:5193:12200:12 142:6 143:20 149:6 redirect 3:14 74:12 171:7172:14182:7 

202:13 149:22 150:2 170:21 92:20 113:5,7 184:5,10,22 185:19 

questioned 70:20 174:13176:1,9,11 reduced 133:14 186:5,13,15 191:14 

questioning 67:14,14 177:22 178:9,13 refer 30:14 43:19 61 :5 201 :11 

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questionnaire 134:9 205:17 189:4 related 132:17 

questions 7:14 18:11 reason 10:20 11 :3 reference 78:12 relationship 207:5 

64:20 74:9,15,19 87:5 13:20 24:2 69:15 referenced 156:6 relatively 75:17,20 

92:18 103:3,21 108:7 71:18 72:7 89:3 90:21 references 31:20 32:10 relevance 141:18 

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rationale 14:8191:7 recommendation 191:6 regarding 9:6 31:16 51 :3 53:2 54:8 59:8 

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re-established 119:3 62:4 188:18 103:22 104:7 105:6 153:18 157:14 203:1 

184:19 reconvene 181:4 105:16 208:13 210:8 

re-sealed 83:12 reconvened 83:9 155:6 regardless 77:21 reporting 35:5 

reach 81:21 130:1 181:12 Region 2:18 5:5 represent 52:11 

152:8 record 4:3 13:21 26:13 Regional2:17 5:4 representative 32:15 

reached 80:4 168:12 33:16 35:11 45:20 regs 71:2 188:2 142:1 

203:8 69:6 83:1,4,5,7 84:10 regular72:8,11119:13 represented 5:3 

reaching 81:18 95:10 99:10101:6,9 regulate 199:1 representing 5:1 

read 140:13 141:7 103:16,20 128:1 regulation 31:3,7,11 177:17 

144:8 148:4,6,9 199:2 140:13 141:13 154:9 48:20109:20111:13 request 24:16 41 :7 

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reading 141:2 201 :4 186:6197:17 208:3 185:5,11 requested 16:4 86:20 

reads 141:5 210:9 regulations 13:3 23:10 131:11 

ready 25:2 126:1 127:2 records 33:17 36:4,5 24:7,14 28:1,22 29:5 requesting 133:12 

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reality 136:22 136:19 137:8171:7 68:15,16 70:21 72:5 69:18 70:15 104:5 

realize 197:5 171:17,21172:5,9,13 72:19,22 77:12105:2 107:16,18118:10,11 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

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182:4,13,16 183:15 79:16 116:3 safety 3:9 9:2 26:21 86:12105:14106:9 

185:14 188:15 197:14 reviewing 45:19 27:18 132:17,19 107:8120:6128:15 

requires 22:20 reviews 61:13 143:8163:10189:2 145:8 153:2,20 

reschedule 203:22 Richard 29:9 198:20,21 199:5,7,15 154:10158:16173:13 

rescheduled 44:18 ride 56:10,13 65:20 200:1 ,4,6, 13, 15,18 191:11 205:5 207:1 

resealed 158:9 66:5 71:11 73:13 201:12 202:15 206:19 seeing 88:5 90:10 

reserve 142:21 75:15 77:20 81:8 207:14 seek 190:2 200:20 

reserved 200:14 201:9 88:10 95:7 102:2 salary 177:1 201:18 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
226 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
227 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
228 

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
229 

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well-working 123:18 149:16,19 150:12,14 100:5,9,10 105:1 66:17 68:8 70:21 

went 43:15 83:4,5 151:3,7,11,15153:17 116:14123:9,12 85:16105:3110:9 

109:17110:3111:18 155:11,12,17156:15 130:2 139:4,6,16 118:6 129:3 166:17 

122:14131:2134:14 157:2,5,19 158:3,20 140:7 151:8 157:3 167:16 182:17,19 

181:7,8 159:3,7,11,16160:8 169:22 170:13 171:15 183:10,15 

weren't24:11 56:13 160:11,17,21 161:14 174:14,22 176:9 135.293(c)313,19 

122:10170:8187:18 161:22 162:14,21 178:6 179:1 203:20 135.293A29:19 31:12 

189:18 163:19 164:4,22 York 137:14 42:13 43:3 49:2 

wide 199:13 166:10,12 177:22 183:21 185:21 186:10 

William 2:4 3:19 7:2 207:20 z .... 135.293844:8185:14 

53:10 127:17128:2 witness's 158:8 Zachary 2:15 5:3 135.293C31:12107:15 

160:14161:15 witnesses 3:12 4:12 185:5 

wind 68:18 96:22 98:17 206:13 0 135.297 29:19 31:10,19 

window 38:6,7 206:18 09197:21 31:20 32:2,7,8,10 

windows 204:6 wonder 178:11 44:22 46:7 48:22 

Windsock 2:5 word 15:9,16 43:1 1 49:13 50:4 51:13 -----------

wise 198:18 119:3 1 2:19 60:12 66:21 68:8,9,21 

wish 11:1814:17 95:4 words 8:2215:9,14,17 1-4-123:7 107:17110:9118:10 

97:22 98:18 180:3,7 103:8110:22198:18 1,000 148:20 129:12 166:17182:22 

wishes 75:11 work 10:2111:14 28:14 1,750139:9,9161:17 183:16 184:15,17,19 

witness 5:16,18 6:3 7:6 33:15 75:22134:8,11 1:05 155:2 184:19,22 185:2,5,7 

10:15 12:16 14:5 24:3 175:19176:4179:2 1:30181:7 185:13,20 

25:14,20,21 26:5,7,10 199:18 207:9 1:40181:4,8 135.29913:4 29:19 32:4 

26:14 27:10 28:6,11 worked 29:8 137:13 10:15 82:17 83:4 32:7,13 44:9 45:1,15 

30:7 39:8,10,10,17,19 164:12 169:5,6,22 10:25 82:21 45:22 49:5 166:18 

40:3 46:18 50:7 52:21 191 :6 10:30 21:19 83:5 167:17 183:2,17,22 

53:3 54:4,9 56:1,4,6 working 133:17 168:10 1083:18 185:22 186:10 

57:1,4 59:4,861:13 200:9 205:3 207:11 10th1:134:6 135.299A 15:18 

61:14 64:22 65:11,12 workload 76:14 11 21:19 45:6 49:15 135.301 37:18 78:8 

65:15 69:10 73:21 worse 177:7 50:18,19 183:9 

74:16 75:2,8,21 76:5 wouldn't 127:9 168:2 11,000 63:8,10 64:5,8 135293A22:17 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
230 

135299 22:19 68:2 70:3 77:7,8 147:4 182:6 66,000 190:11 191:4,8 

135299A 15:10 85:12 86:6 87:11 29th38:16 87:11102:8 191:13 

14 11:6 13:3,4 100:5 103:18 104:13107:7 103:17107:7111:6 

141 27:20 28:1,12 111:6116:10121:20 121 :20 7 

145 3:9 129:10,17 167:7 2s 151:1 766:12 97:9188:17 

14CFR 118:6 169:15183:20197:21 189:12 

1521:11123:12134:16 20123:109:2111:6,14 3 7-1170:11 

174:2195:7 33:1 53:9 57:2143:12 3 21:22 37:1 41:18 42:7 7-11-123:9 

15,00011:9100:1140:7 151:8157:5,6158:22 62:5,18 78:16 97:9 7-22-10 3:5 

17 4:22 201:20 209:21 166:1 188:16189:12 7-7-10 3:5 

15th 11:15 63:5189:15 2012EA5008 1 :7 190:7 7,70064:9189:21 

1603:10 2013 3:10 16:3 144:21 3,000 133:20 7182:21 

161 3:10 145:10146:18151:8 30 38:6,7 120:7 203:5,6 727 2:5 

162 3:11 157:5,8 160:12 210:1 31st23:2,3 203:7 7th 40:22 42:12 44:3,5 

165 3:19 20143:119:17151:8 325173:15 44:17 129:6 

172 173:9 157:5,9161:16210:2 3rd1:10 

17th 16:3 20151:13 4:6 a 

18 85:1 20150.38 3:8 59:15 4 8 97:9 103:8 

181 3:21 2016 204:5 415:2,2,1416:9 61:6 8:56 4:2 

18419 2:5 21 9:21 97:9 188:10189:3,12 84-30 91:16 95:7 

18th 46:8,17 47:19 2150.38 58:18,20 189:14 190:8 8410 36:22 70:6 131:7 

48:18 49:8,20 50:3 21538 188:9 191:6 4-18-11 3:6 138:15 146:14 171:10 

56:18,22 66:6,20 70:2 22 3:2 4,400 63:8,10 64:5,7 184:12 

104:13119:8129:16 22nd 41:1 44:4,7,21 189:17190:9,15 8410-3 3:5,5,6,6 37:4 

167:7 45:22 70:6 129:7 401 65:20 40:14,19 45:19 46:6 

19 99:19 116:14 166:16 184:11 41 3:5 46:1647:18 51:9 

19,000139:11 23,000 139:11 42 3:5 108:21 109:2 184:2 

19,450 160:12 23,500 158:22 46,200 23:19 24:17 8410-3s 46:4,9 52:12 

196 3:22 23rd 13:1 23:5 35:11 64:12134:2 135:8 109:3,12 172:6 

1996 99:19 24 100:6 101:22 148:12 190:1 192:9 8410s 88:5 130:10 

1st37:9 38:15 25 100:6 101 :22 144:21 195:21 8430s 95:12 

145:9 48 3:6 853:17 

------~·· ----- -- -- ---- 250173:17 49USC46301 (a)(5)(a) 873:17 

2 9:18,20 25th 103:7 146:18 63:4 87-10107:8 

2-11-11 3:6 26 3:16 49USC46301A58 8710-3104:8 108:16,16 

2,500 135:17 26,400 190:10,20 191:2 189:15 109:11 

2:18210:11 191:8 4th 53:9 871 0-3s 109:4 

2:30 21:22,22 279 70:22 - 8710s 130:9 

20 86:5 154:10 28th 36:8 38:15 55:19 5 89134:16 

20,000 135:15 56:2,4196:10197:12 5 61:6 97:9 Bth35:12 

2001178:3 290186:10 50,000 139:7 

2003 23:14 58:3 293 31:21 43:4 65:19,19 500135:18 148:15,20 9 

2006 63:5 189:16 66:12 67:15 69:4 5041:11 

2008 27:7,10176:9 104:5 105:16106:1 52 3:6 

178:8 118:12121:7,14 52,000 178:4 

2010 37:10 40:22 41:2 138:5147:3,4 182:5 54 3:7 

42:12 44:3,4,21 45:11 293A 32:1 58:7 68:14 55 3:7 

46:1 52:13 66:2,11,16 2938 31:9 570 2:6 

67:2185:11116:10 295182:17 -----------

129:7 166:16184:11 297 31 :8,20 65:19 66:17 6 ----------------

197:21 67:16 69:5 85:16 6 3:8 49:13 60:12 61:7 

201113:2,2 23:2 32:22 105:3,16106:1121:7 61:18,18 64:9188:16 

34:9,15 35:11,12 36:8 121:14137:22138:5 188:17 189:4 190:16 

37:10 45:12,13,17,18 146:16147:4,6182:6 190:16 

46:2,8,17 47:19 48:18 182:17 60 3:8 

49:8,20 50:3,18,19 299 65:19 66:12,17 6127:21 28:13 68:16 

51:10 52:14 56:4 70:22 85:16 104:5 62435:13 

64:18 66:7,20 67:8 105:3121:14129:3 65 3:16 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
231 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: Endless Mountains Air 1 Inc. 

Before: DOT/FAA 

Date: 03-10-15 

Place: Allentown, PA 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234·4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
EXHIBIT _ _:c~-_,2..._____ 

PILOT 

B. tFa\iur• 

S, : Tal:ooff ~-

1n~-

' 'to Stalk 

,_ .;p-;O;ii; Fllohtl 

1:1. - 'F•iiui< 

-,(-; 1\Jorinli 

~r.mmri:S 

~ 

116. 

18. I L•ndln.:;-

12. 

-w. 

' 21. 

rn:-A-.u-

~ 

r>i:~ 

125.1LS . "'tt <;;~ 

· 21!. Othow 

VOR 

ILS ~A.~~ til/ 

ott;.;:- ; .,_._;, i:\:JGo 

I~ 

I. 2'1·. C::i~~r.n;; G'r • """-I rt0E 

k~ooJLT OF 

CH'ECl{ 

IIEGIOI'I 

''7 

i< 

I <5' l 

I ·-s- I 

I<:'> 

l-o; 

. 

I 

I. Ground --"- • ., T••i 

2 

-.;;. 

3. Normal&-; !1-.a. e, 

. 4. High 

5. Sim, Enoino Falluro 

6. ~& 

7. Rapid~ 

e. o<ltations (Singleiiiiif,if 

9. ~ •• .-

'10. Ta~.U (Oral) 

-1 i. Sottlin~ With-p;;w;-r (Oral D~ 

1. TO>:ilftl!, &iii"'. 

2. Btap Tui & Tur.,. 

3, oWatl!r 

4, Norm•l Takeoff& 

5. ~ 

Ol'HEI! 

6. Sl:i Pian• Oos. (when 

,; 

Air• I Simu I Trng, 

craft le-tor Dev. 

. 

7 

I . 

r 

7 

J 

I . 

17 

l /-I I 

IL 

1. 

1"" r l 

8. Craw· " 1 -s r I 

AIRMAN COMPETENCY IN FORMA l'ION: 

~ Knowllldlf6: FAR 

I FAR 135.~~ Exoir11 

'~· 

... {12monthol-l I 

lt2 ' I "7/-/J( I 

112 month•! { ~ {lf } 

CHECI< 

PERFORMANCE 

AIRMAr-.!'S ~ Srr:tisfe,-r;:tory 

(FAA Only) 1..1 Unto~ti$f&etory 
t AlRMA\'·! COh1PETEflCY/PR0, .C!EIYCY CHECJ:: 

I •. t f',,iiu-io 

flc~."N-;,;,~; . .iO"~~ 

W I 

u:w;;;;- ' ·-iol,- ! Lmdi~; 

:, "'"""""' 

'z:i~i 

:i{ 

!22:~; 

~; 

G:Z ---;;;:;;;_-~ 

'2:5~ -:-;," • -;N Othoc 

'ii:E-, Mle"'<! 

.zs: 

_,, ~:£!. u-;;,0 Of Auto, fiict 

FP .. R\&5 · 

i/l 

3. <31 , lNdac T.O. -'ii-

'c. Normoi Tak.,cff & 

s:- ,,_o_,, ._ OTHER 

-6_ sic;"'~"' o~~ (wheo 

- --- --

0 S;::;i.?T B·t:tnry 

0 Un.::;;:dif,o_"':{:;ry 
U,S. Department 

of Transportation 

f·od@r.t:JI Avirnio~ 

Admiuul$tJe~Yk:m 

Ja_rmary 4, 2012 

Flight Stand ads District Office 

CERTIFIED. MAIL I RETURi\l RECEIPT 

File No.: 2012EA050008 

Mr. William J. Dobitsch 

President 

Endless ]\;fountains Air, Inc. 

Seamans Airport 

727 \Vindsock Airport 

Factoryville,P.A. 18419 

Dear Mr. Dobitsch: 

-··----------. 

961 Marcon Blvd., Suite 111 

Ailer.town, Pennsylvania i 8109 

6"10-264-2888; Fa;( 610-264-3179 

Persormel of this office are investigating a compliance incident concerning the operation of !Rme<i-fr~~~ 

Endless IvlountainS Air, Inc. Speci11cally, we ar-e revievving crev-v qualifications ·not being · 

complied witb in accordance with 14 CFR 135.293, 135.299. Operations of this type are 

contrary to Federal Aviation Regulations. 

This is to irrform you that tbe Federal Aviation Ailiuinistration (FAA) is investigating tbis 

matter. vVe wish to offer you a_11 opportunity to discuss the incident in person, or submit a 

vvritten statement witbin 10 days following receipt of this letter. Y mrr statement shoul~cdiu~~"-l~~~'-'­ aJl pertin::enti'a-cts-an--cr--any"mltlg-ating cirtlliDstances yoil·b-eheve :mafliEiVe a bearing On 

incident. If we do not hear from you witbin the specified time, we will process this matter 

vvithout the benefit of your statement. 

If you have any questions regarding this matter, please contact me at (610) 264-2888, 

extension 229. 

Sincerely, 

Ha1-ryN. Soudas 

Avie.tion Safe!:'; Inspector 
Mr. Harry N, Soudas 

Aviation Safety Inspector 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Allentown Flight Standards District Office 

961 Marcon Boulevard, Suite lll 

Allentovvn, P A 18109 

RE: File No.: 2012EA050008 

Dear Mr: Soudas, 

.:i 

Seamans Airport 

u 727 Windsock Lane 

, Fact:oryvi/!e, PA 18419 

Phone: 570.9455125 

Fax: 570.945.7222 

http:jjwww.seamansairport com 

Thank you for meeting with myself and our PIC Randy Palmer on January 18'1

regards 

' ;,vith 

to your office's compliance 

conformance with 

incident investigation and our evident non 

14 CFR 135.293 and 135.299. 

---As-Jise-ussed anr:I-trs"l:er!EiTleil-Jlil-6ur 

ofbot"t 

n1eet1rig_j du·e t-~Ur lac}~ of c..o1nplete understanding 

number 

14 

of charter 

CFR 135.293 and 135.297, we erroneously operated under Part 135 for a 

Palmer being overdue 

trips during the months of September and October 2011, with Mr. 

for his 135.293 annual check ride. 

As 

135.293 

stated 

check 

in our meeting, myself and Mr. Palmer were initially unsure as to whether a 

of attempts 

ride was required at the end August 2011. Mr. Palmer had made a number 

in late August/early September 

for clarification 

to contact !Vlr. Robert Ference of your office 

';::nlls. lVlr. Pal1ner 

but nnfotiunately, Mr. Palmer and Mr. Ference kept missing each other's 

the opinion 

and I rhen decided to refer to thr;; regulations again and v;e left off vvith 

'Were sufficient 

that his 04/1 !!20ll, 135.297 checkride and subsequent use of the autopilot 

interpretation YY'as 

for him to have qualified for his 135.293 check ride. lJnfortunately, our 

li'Vrong. 

a 

After 

complete 

consulting 

understanding 

with yourself, Mr. Ference and lVIr. Ghidiu at om meeting, we nov\' have 

of these regulations and will ensure that we comnlv with them. ~ '--' '--' 

Pleas.e also be advised ths:~ 

-'- ~ 

tu get us back i:z1 co1n_pllcDce) l'vfr. Paln1er is scheduled vvith i\ , Gh'~· f' l:' ]"- ~oo ' k ·~ , · ~,b d F' · .-nd 

1/lT. 'J luJ",J or 1lS ..J),L'-)_) cnec-'-~ nuethlS l~ ursray_,: -eoillElT)' _/... . 
Thank you for your help and assistance with this matter. If you have any questions, 

please don't hesitate to calL 

Sincerely, 

/ ... _)l 

,· /':::· 

/ .. ~ ~ .. / L,_.-;:·"' ./ '~~··"·I ,_ / ,/ / t~~- ' 

WiJli&tn J.cDobitsch': Jr. 

President . 

- -----------

; 

/ 

.; 

/ 
07/26/07 2150.38 

(I) VIOLATION COMMITTED BY U.S. AIR CARRIERS OR U.S. COMMERCIAL 

OPERATOR. 

CLASSIFICATION OF AIR CARRIER AND OPERA TOR 

GROUP I- Each air carrier operating under part 121 or pmt 135, with an annual 

operating revenue of $100,000,000 or more. Operating revenue is determined by 

reference to DOT's "Air Ca..rrier Industry Scheduled Service Traffic Statistics Quarterly." 

See http://ostp:(web.dot.;zov/aviation/index.html, and click on "Airline Financial 

Revievv." 

GROUP II- Each air carrier or commercial operator operating under part 121 with an 

annual operating revenue of less than $100,000,000, or under part 135 with an annual 

operating revenue of less than $100,000,000, if the 135 operator has 50 or more pilots and 

25 or more aircraft on its operations specifications. Operating revenue is determined by 

reference to DOT's "Air Carrier Industr; Scheduled Service Traffic Statistics Quarterly." 

GROUP III- Each air carrier or commerciq.l operator operating under part 135 with 6 to 

4 9 pilots or 6 to 24 aircraft. 

GRO-UP IV- Each air carrier or commercial operator operating under p8It l35 ·with no 

more than 5 pilots and no more than 5 aircraft. 

GROUP !-Targe business concern (for violations on or after 12/12/03) 

Maximum $18,750-$25,000 

f\.1oderatc $10,00D-$18,749 

------i_\4inimum- ,bl, OOCl..-$-9, 999---

GROUP I- small business concern (for violations covered under 49 U.S.C. 

§ 46301(a)(5)(A) that occurred after 6/15/06): 

Maximum 

Moderate 

Iv!ini.mum 

. $8,250-$11,000 

$4,400-$8,249 

$1, !00-$4,399 

GROUP I- small business concern (for violations covered under 49 U.S.C. 

§ 46301 ( a)(S)(A) that occurred from 12/12/03 until 6115/06): 

Maximum 

Moderate 

Minimum 

$7,500-.$10,000 

$4,000-$7,499 

$L000-$3,999 

8-4 
07/26/07 2150.38 

GROUP I- small business concern (for violations covered under 49 U.S.C. § 

4630 l (a)(l )(A) or (B) but not under 49 U.S.C. § 4630 l (a)(5)(A) that occurred on or after 

12/12/03): 

Maximum 

Moderate 

Minimum 

$850-$1 '1 00 

$650-$849 

$500 $649 

GROUP II -large business concern (for violations on or after 12112/03): 

Maximum 

Moderate 

Minimum 

$16,250-$25,000 

$8,750-$16,249 

$1,850-$8,749 

GROUP II- small business concern (for violations covered under 49 U.S.C. § 

4630l(a)(5)(A) that occurred after 6/15/06): 

Maximum 

Moderate 

lvEnimur..n 

$8,250-$11,000 

$3,850-$8,249 

$935-$3,849 

GROUP II- small business concern (for violations covered under 49 U.S.C. § 

46301(a)(5)(A) that occurred from 12/12/03 until6115/06): 

Maximum 

Moderate 

Minimum 

$6,500-$10,000 

$3,500-$6,499 

$850-$3,499 

GROUP II- small business concern (for violations covered under 49 U.S. C. § 

46301 (a)(l)(A) or (B) but not under 49 U.S.C. § 46301(a)(5)(A) that occurred on or after 

12/12/03): 

Maximum 

Moderate 

Minimu.;n 

$750-$1,100 

$450-$ 749 

$250 $ 449 

GROUP III -for Yiolations covered under 49 U.S.C. § 46301 (a)(5)(A) that oc·~urred after 

6115106: 

Maximum 

Moderate 

Minimum 

$7,150-$1 LOOO 

$3,300-$7,149 

$825-$3.299 

8-5 

' 

" 

iil 

"' 

"' 

'" 

~ 

EXHlElT 

L-1r ' 

V"e:v 2cf' , 
07/26/07 2150.38 

GROUP III- for violations covered under 49 U.S. C.§ 4630l(a)(5)(A) that occUlTed from 

12/12/03 until6/15/06: 

Maximum 

Moderate 

Minimum 

$5,500-$10,000 

$3,000-$5,499 

$750-$2,999 

GROUP III- for violations covered under 49 U.S.C. § 46301(a)(l)(A) or (B) but not 

under 49 U.S. C.§ 46301(a)(5)(A) that occurred on or after 12/12/03: 

Maximum 

Moderate 

Minim uin 

$650-$1,100 

$400-$ 649 

$150-$ 399 

GROUP IV -for violations covered tmder 49 U.S.C. § 46301(a)(5)(A) that occurred after 

6/15/06: 

Maximum 

fVIoderate 

Minim Lim 

$4,400-$11 '000 

$2,200-$4,399 

$550-$2,199 

GROUP IV- for violations covered under 49 U.S. C. § 4630 l(a)(5)(A) thai occurred from 

12/12/03 until6/l5/06: 

fv1axirrlUtTl 

Moderate 

Minimum 

$4,000-$10,000 

$2,000-$3,999 

$5 00-$1 '999 

----GROUp-ftf·- for viotations-covereGlrrider 49U.S.c.-~ 46J01~a)( !)(A) or (B) but not 

under 49 U.S.C. § 4630l(a)(5)(A) that occurred on or after 12/12/03: 

~1aximum 

Moderate 

Minimum 

$500-$1,100 

$300-$499 

$100-$299 

(2) VIOLATION COMMITTED BY PART P9 OPERATOR (for violations on or after 

12/12/03). 

Maximum 

Moderate 

Minimum 

$18,750-$25,000 

$10,000-$18,749 

$2,000-$9,999 
07/26/07 

2150 38 

AND 

1. U.S. 

PART 

AIR 

129 

CARRIERS, 

OPERATORS. 

U.S. COMMERCiAL OPERATORS, PART 125 OPERA.TORS, 

Fig. B-1-a. Maintenance Manual Civil Penalty 

(1) Failure 

Certificat,e A~tior 

to maintain current man\illl Miitimum Up to 7-day 

(2) Failure to provide 

suspenswn 

adequate Moderate 

instmctions 

to Maximum 

and procedures in 

manual 

(3) Failure to distribute manual to appropriate persolll!el Minimum 

( 4) Release 

to Moderate 

of aircraft without required equipment Moderate to Maximum Up to 7-day 

susgension 

. 

Fig. B-1-b. AIW Directive Civil Penalty Certifkate Adio 

(1) Failure to comply Moderate to Maximum 

Fig. B-1-c. Onerations SJ:ledfir,.tions CivB Penait-,· Certif}cate Acti'. 

( 1) Exceed inspection or overhaul time limitation Moderate Up to 7-day 

suspenswn -

(2) Operation contrary to ops specs- technical I\1inirnum 

noncomj)liance 

(3) Operation contrary to ops specs -likely potential or Moderate 

actual adverse 

to Maximum 

effect on safe operation 

• < 

-

Fi . B-1-d. FacHiti<es and E ui ment -:--c------:I_,C=hcc·i=-1 

1 (I) Failure to provide adequatel}'for_p_roper 

"-P-=e=n=a'-'ltv"-' -------1~-C=e=-rt::if~i-=c=a':::"'=-"":c:"c::c=tlcc:_ servicing,__ Ma~imum _ 

maintenance, rej:mir;-orinspection of facilities 

Imiefinite ---· --

and Suspension until 

equipment 

proper serv1cmg. 

maintenance, repa 

and inspection of 

facilities and 

equipment is 

8-16 

I 

provide~ to 

. Revocation 
07/26/07 2150.38 

Fig. B-1-e. Maint.enance and Inspection Organization Civil Penalty 

(!) Failure to provide or maintain a maintenance and Maximum 

inspection organization 

I 

Fig. B-1-f. Trainmcr Program Civil Penalty 

(I) Failure to have training program Maximum 

(2) Failure to maintain training program Moderate to Maximum 

(3) Failirre to train personnel adequately Moderate to Maximmn 

Fig. B-1-g. Maintenance or Aircraft PaiJ.envork Civil Penalty 

c-'-: 

(1) Incomplete or unsigned release . Minimwn to Maximum 

1 (2) Fmlure to rev1se ale data . after repmr I l'vwderate to Max1mum 

I Fi"'. B-1-h. Performanre of Maintenance Civil Penalty 

(!) By unauthorized person Maximum 

(2) Fail me to perform or improper maintenance Moderate to ~¥1aximum I 

FJg. B-1-i. SFAR 36 

l_ 

I rh:il P.a.n"!Jlt>~r ..._, .... ~ "'"' ... ""' .......... .! 

(1) Failure to comply -,secondoft-ense____ . 1 Maximum -----

Fiu. B-1-i. Records and Reports Civil Penalty 

(1) Deliberate violation 

(a) Intentionally false or fraudulent entry, 

reproduction, or alteration in record or 

report 

(b) Other 

7 . . I (-) Fmlure to make ace mate me,hanlcalimerruptlOn 0 . summary report 

, Moderate to Max1mum 

I 

(3) Failure to make available report of major alteration or I Moderate to Ma'Ximum 

repair [ 

I 

• 1 ( 4) failure to ma.l.;_e acc;urate mecha'lical reliability report Moderate to Maximuin 

I (5) Failure to make reqi,ir~d entry in aircraft log Minimum to Maximum 

. 

[ 

8-'17 

Certifi·cate Actio 

Indefinite 

Suspension until 

appropriate 

maintenance and 

inspection 

organization is 

provided to 

Revocation 

Certificate Acti{ 

Indefinite 

Suspension until 

compliance to 

Revocation 

Certificate Acti( 

Certifkaie Acti{ 

Certificate Acti.c 

Revocation 

180-day Suspensi 

to Revocation 

Indefinite 

Suspension to 

Revocation 
07/26/07 

EX 

G--7-r 

Flo. B-1-", Records & R.e;oorts 

~ cont. 

(6) Failure to make available pilot record 

(7) Failure to mal:e available load manifest 

(8) Failure to monitor and record emoute radio 

communication 

Fig; B-1-k Dispatch and Flight Release Rules 

(1) Any violation ofsubpa,'i U of 14 CFR part 121 

Fig. B-1-l. Qperation of unainvorthy aircraft 

(1) Technical non-conformity to TC; no likely effect on 

s::~fe op~ration 

2150.38 

Civil Penal 

Moderate to Maximum 

Moderate to Maximum 

Moderate to Maximum 

Civil Penalty 

Moderate to Maximum 

Civil Penalty_ 

Minimum 

Certifkate A ~tio 

Indefinite 

Suspension to 

Revocation 

Inde±1nite 

Suspension to 

Revocation 

Certificate Acti' 

Certificate Actir 

(2) Non:conformity to TC that may have, or has, adverse Moderate to Maximum 

effect on safe operation L (3) Release of aircraft without required equipment ! Moderate to Maximum Up to 7-day 

I suspen~ion 

.Fig. B-1-m. Provisions specific to passernger-carrying CiYil Penalty Certi:lkate AcH1 

(I) Boarding, or serving alcoholic beverage - to, a person Maximum 

who ap_lJears to be intoxicated I 

(2) Failure to brief passengers Moderate to Maximum 

(3) Failure to ensure seat fu"ld belt for each passenger Maximum 

. (4) 'ipl 

v erat1on . w; ' o o· 

)p< eraDle ' ' pl uouc ' '. aoaress , , . system Maximum I (5) Failure to-store baggageyruperly ------ ----- -rlfoderate -- T 

Fi<>, B-1-n. Pmvislons Sj}ed.fic to fli"M deck crew Civil P emally C e rtjfi.ca t e A <:li· 

(1) Use of crewmember with e)(]Jired medical certificate Minimum to Moderate 

(2) Failure to make flight deck seat available to Maximum 

authorized emoute inspector 

(3) Use of unqualified crewmember Maximum 

(4) Flight and Duty Time violation Moderate 

I 

Fig. B-1-o. Other !")'43Yisions CiYil Penalty C.erti.fi.c.ate Acti 

( l) Improperly Returning Aircraft to service Ma;ximum 

I (2) Illegal carriage of controlled substance with Revocation 

i kno~vvledge of carrier, that is, knovvledge of, or 

J l i ,_ inv>h'PffiP·nt u, ', " ~,. -i--: 

u,, con;l-1lCt by +nr manarr·o.-;-"O'""jpnt DF>"SQ!JTI""l ,u. "jJ , . ,;ob- , , -• h -· 

I i3) Use a~ unqualified personnel other thfu"l t1ight deck Ma··dmum I creY>,/ffiernoer I -

B-18 
EXHIBIT A ~'-"' 0 ~----,.-=. - _=_ ~.;,.r••·;__.;.,---;"-_~_,:--·-----

'LOCATiON - l"o~~~c!:yj~·- < .~c:- -, AJR!i.~AW COMPEye!\!CY/fROFiCfEf~CY CHECK . · r-M 135 /JI3E . . .. . . ·.· 

:R~.ME ot-;:_AiSMA.r~ (last7

_fim, mkfdle Initial) rYPE OF CHECK / 

FAR 135.2g; / I ·. 'i:>tq{_hf~/L. J{JANd•./ /1. FAR '35.293 Q./ FAR 135.2:99. 0 

Yi" . . Grd< (!pltjme;e,e '"'-- MEDICAL ii\IFORMATIOI\'; Ooto of EK•m. frlt4/1'3, :J.,~ tlJ <;ERTIF!CATIOO I · ll~FORw.ATIOI\': Mum~r j' ;:I</. '} ;)_./ '/ Dotoota;..n /{9/,.J.J. •i'TS"~ Cl2« Ject> ... ,:/ . ··S'-'tPLOYEO BY ~0 AT (CitY~ Statf>) TYPE A.lRPLAWE (Make/Model) .J/t-Olo i£;vdle.w /17/--u.J. fill'/ • -eAm"""'•· fi,d~·~ r Simuktorrrr~ining Oavice (Make/Model} 

: liiAW;E OF CHECK A!RMAI~ ·. SIG. OF CHECK 1\!RWiM! FLIGHT TIME . J .·.·· . /.3 Nw<le.P. . · . . .. FLIGHT MA.l\!EUVERS GRADE IS~ S..tmacwry u Umati#actoTY} 

.·_. !>!LOT •. 

... Air- Sim~-

A.ir· Simu~ Tr~.~ ·=· cr..ft latar D ... 

.··' 

' :. · ... · _·.· ' . 

. ··-·· .. · 

crzft J~tar De_v. 1 

.·. ... . . PR!:f(i;lHT . HELICOPTER 

•• Eq~m&nt E::iintkw:I~({J£;_J-ii}w'n_tten) $. . 1 •. Ground_s:rd/Gr.P.irY£ni v 2. ?rifUrht InspeCtiOn s 2. HovM"ifli! Manu6\"tt:tt 

3. 'fc;xitnu .. . .. · .::> ·3. No-rmal·& C~ind: T .0. &. Landings t l.. P~wsrplcn~ ChGcl~~ .. -.. ·. •· . :. s 4~. High Altitude Tskeofh & Loncl'~s 

' f .. :.• .TAKEOFfS . ·. t !:i~ · Sim. _ Enig;ine Failure: . 

S. Nonn'" ·_.· ·· · · 

·~····· . .. ... ... .s B. Confined Arlist, Slopes, & Pinnacies; . I 

S. lmtrument .· .. ···• ' ' •· . s, 7.- R.ep-kt OeCt;derstiOn. (Quick Stops) .. 

7, -C«i-~ind . ·.· .. . s 8. Aut:o_wtatiofls (SingliJ Engine) 

S. •. With Sil'nu1U&d_ Po\v~htnt FBUu.rii~ \. <"' I : 9. Hovering; A~rato::tiom {Single Ehgine} 

. 2. R&je:ttd Ta.l::~<!,:<ff • !';, 10, 'rail Rotor Failure; (Orsl} r 

!NFUGHT iliANiWVE RS .11. Set'tlinq With Powe-r (Or~/ or Flight} ~----. I i 

' 10. Stooil·Tur!1S. .· . !'-; I SEAPLANE OPERA TIOI\!S I -~ t .. Appro·~chias- tQ. ·sta"s . ' e,. ! - . 1. T~U<:U~ •. SaiH~ .. l)od::ine ,.-l i -i S~•:iflc l'llf!ht Ch..,..__i<t!"' · ·"-- ~ I. Z. Step T;:~?::l &: Turns 1-r • ..... Pal'I.""-"'"Pknt Failure iS J 3. GIB$SV/R.cugh Water T .OJLancli_f&JS ' 

· .. · LANO_fl\!GS •• Wcrme-t Takeoff & l..i!nding-: I 

'it., N:ort11t" t. .. :·· . . .· . ,.l.._ I 5.. CI"OS$Wind T ,0. & Lir.-ndings i -- I 

.·· 15.- Fram-an_ILS' .--· ·. ' ... ·.S. ' . OTHER c .· 1G.. · Crcm:'tii.•ind 

····· . 

<> '6. Ski Ptanto<.-Op-s. (when applicable} v I I .. '\1. Witb·Simulate.d PQ\oWtP~ltst Fiilur~- - -- · v- ·.~ .. GENERAL . ! 

· \8. R~ltr-te<! Li<nd~ • • ·.· ·····.• .. -1~ --7.--·-Jud~moot - .-- IS -I- I I · 1.£. Fmrr~_CirclirQ-AppfGu:fl; ·. .. ' . l<> S. Crew Coqrdination ~ l i I 

. •. EI\!IERGI:l\!CI!IS 

AIB;MA.N COMPETENCY INFORMAXIO!\l: 2.0. _ i~arm~:-l '-R9 A.bnom\d ~rGcadu.nt~> I '"> l l . 

2.1. Enw;l"(l(en..-y'fTOcscW~ .. 1-.S. I ! O.emoMt.rc®d Cummt .KncwltidF6 FAR ·'i35.2S3fL} 

INSTRUMENT Pf(CCEDURES . Mf..ke-/Mo.del Exp-ires: ( 12 months} I I 

22. A"" Dop.:rtur:G - D§mon-straed Co.mpettm:y FAR 135.29:3(hl 

23, Ha-kiillg_ I " f{.ake/Modcl Explret (12mam;m; ( - ) .. - .... · 24~. A.rfs." A:rri\!d . 

.. ·· .. . ~ &ti:Sff:lrrtorUy Demonst.raw:::f L~ Checks 

.:::; FAR. .135.~. Expiro;; (1:2monthd I - I 2S. ILS ApprcliOh"' 

I . 26.. Othti.r ln~;trument ApPri,..acher . ..,. Sat~actorlly o·e.monstrated fFR Proficiency 

{_~,f..l/ . A.flproactie;;: 1\!DB{AI:>F -I FAR 135.297 Expin>~ ( 6-monthsl l 

_.. .LO C- Ql. 'I s Use of AutoPilot (is-i lis rwtl Autfttl.riz~. \ 

ILS \:.lLI''-/ t.. 1-\ ~ \.:.. ·-S · EM:pir6t (i2 monthd I . IJ 

Othor (Specify) C, P.£ \3 ..s REW.A.RK!l I · 27. C~li~ A.PProldle-.;: -~·- t3£:z97 ek . : ~. Misood ApPnui~~ ...s ' e....e s ?fe -e.rh(;l,J t, j if J' . .i-'j 7 22~ Comm../Ht.t". ~un~ / 

1n, Uvz. of Auto. Pilot · -· L -'>. A/Jt·.c- liUL.T·O~ ~A.ppiO\'"f:l CHECK AIRMAN'S 0 SEti~h.ctorv 

, ""'l-(~CtO:. .. .- -·O: D-"!$t.pprovecl" P.ERFORfdA.NCE lfAA Only} D- UnrAt'iSfactorv 

REGtOi~ ..... Ol$fFUCT OFFlCE FAA lf,SPE~;~:;N~ f ! ·. J. ·. . . . ' p,.,v . . • . . s EXHIBIT ~£tij,· ---.---~-~~-------..0-- -

fAA Form 1'!41 0-3 (G:.S1 )_ G~;,.,~;;;.;;;:;-P-;.INTI~ ~;;E, ;;;,;.,~;~;., c -!? 
EXH!Hff _ _J,C...c.:._-__J_"f __ 

I'~AME OF ! ''""· ITYPE OF CHECK 

. PAJ '" L:> J?ANOY A r Grl>d• /',., ·~A-~A-

-~ =-:~~~Y" Numl>or _-:? :, .d Q ? J 4 

.~ ~ED BY AT (City, Statol 

PILOT 

. 

5, Norm•! 

6. . 

7. 

B. With I 

: 9. : Tolcwff 

10. Stoep Turns 

1-n . ' Stalls 

_ ?••lllc Flight · 

. 

!~-. 1\!ormol 

' 15. 1 Ill! 

!B. 

17. With 1 Foiluro 

111. I Londlno 

111. From Circlfnlp 

.:;, 

> 

,_..,.. '-""' 

./ 

/ 

. 

%0, Normol ond, 

21. 

1/T I 

I/ I I 

22 ........ , 

' 22. liolditm 

• 2(, Am Arrlvcl 

:IIi, ILS, 

26, Oth.,. 

· VOR 

_ . ILS 

27. 

·26.MI-, 

~e. 

Other 1 

_3fl U!:_. of Auto. Pilot 

"''OF 

: 

.REDID:_, 

-

./ 

ff' 

.s: 

_/ 

/ 

/ 

i!.P< 4 9AI-.. £/ 

OApp'"m 

)<i'Dioopprom 

/ 

1uou OFFICE 

FAR 135,28a 0 FAR 135.291 Jt/ FAR 135.299 0 

"'u••: OotoofE•am.;S/13/Z0/0 

I Date of Birth /.. I"';> I I .. ''"' cr ... s~ 'L> 

ITVPE .. M. .5"_~ ZD 

"" TIME 

A;.. "'mu· "llll· I cr~ft lator Oev . 

"'"' . 

1. G•••"". "- ·Told ,.-

2. 

a:~a ',O,IItl• ~~. 

/i:- HIGh , . Tolceoft.l!t I 

5. Slm. Enolno Foijure 

B. Aroaa.l"~"!"- &o 

7. ii@rdl . (Qulcl: Stot>&/ 

8. ' (Single Eng/no/ 

S.- ' Eng-Ins} . 

.Wo ION/I 

Iii :s;;;;u;;;.Wkh Puwer (Oral or Flill'htl_ I V ~~4PlAN~ 

1. Toxlh11;saU;nO; Dooldn:l ..-

2. Steo Tastll!t Turno 

3. . , WatiWT 

(, !<ormel · akeofl & 

&: !T.O.& 'V , OTH_IlR 

6.Skil , (When· 1../1 I 

GFNI<RAI 

7. 

a. e:,;,, I I - t ~r 1 

AIRMAN COMPETENCY INFORMATIOf~: 

Current .KnowredQ'G FAR 'IK ~~,.,, : 

112 i t 

FAR 

{1a I 

i Lirm Checl:• 

112 ,_ 

'FR Profialea:v 

I 

I 

I 

I 6 manthol I - I 

' tid {lo n<>tl Authorized. 

l12manthsl ( - I 

-~.-. -··ft 

I 3 s: z ? 7 c;...,.,. "-4' ,11/ D.../ .,. ;./ L "' .,. .,. 

CHECK AIRMAN'S Q.Satl<l•otol'l' 

PERFORMANCE (FAA Only/ Jll U ... tlifactary 

FM INSPECTOR"• SIGNATURE 

kF~A•Aft~~~.~:-~~s~~-;;~.4;~~-.a-t"I·--·--··-----J--.---.. -·2~~·~~-----·-··---.. ---.. J~~~~~/~,-~y-~~;?:.;=P:'~,N~T·IN~G:~o.~~~~~;,,;,,;,_~,;;,;~ 
EXHI\311 13 . ·. 

AIRMAN COMPETENCY/PROFICIENCY CHECK Ito~~./ OATE;;c~j~ FAR 135 ?cT ){ 2S 13 

~p Of :R;N ~/7/:~ 7: initili ' 

ffvPE OF CHECK 

FAR 135.293 QJC FAR 135.297 S FAR 135.2!19 )lij; 

Pl..-._. Grade / C 1/J m ""'tfl-· ,' "L P1&f- MEDICAL IN FORMA~ D•te of Exam. s)2o/zo13 CERTIFICATION 

INFORMATION: Nuonbe< ~ 3 '-/9'21 L{ O•t•oiBirth t? C Z<-)sz_ Class f"..,. co,-,/ 

EMPLOYED BY BASED AT (City~ State} TYPE AIRPLANE (Mako/Mode/} C i ...-rv;. s£-zo 

&/JI/t>.ss m f5/J,, .Inc Feu forvv,/(tp flf Simulator/Training Device (Make/Mode~) 

NAME OF CJ:!~CK AIRMAN SIG. OF CHECK AIRMAN FLIGHT Tli. .c:- Na2'1 cf> 

FLIGHT MANEUVERS GRADE (S Sstisfac<YNV U Unsatisfactory} 

PILOT 

Air• Simu- Tmg. 

Air- Slmu· Trng. """' ._, Dew • 

croft lator Dov. 

PREFLIGHT HELICOPTER 

1. Equipment Examination (Oral or writtBn} <;• 1. Ground and/or Air Taxi \ 

2. Preflight Inspection 5' 2. Hovering Manuevers \ 

3. Taxiing s 3. Normal & Crosswind T .0. &: Landings 

4. Powerplant ~ · .. s 4. High Altitudo Tokooffs S. Londi- \ 

TAKEOFFS 5. Sirn, Engine Failure \ 

5, Norm .. 6. Confined Arus.. Slopes, &: Pinnacles \ 

6. lnstnunem ( 7. Rapid ~ion (Quick Srops) 

7. Croswind ~ 8. Autorotationt /Single Engine} 

8. With Simu1atad Powerpfant Failure 

- 9. Hovering Aumrotations {Single Engine} \ 

9. Rejected Takeoff c; 10. Tail Rotor Failures (Oral} \ 

INFUGHT MANEUVERS 11. Settlint With Power {Oral or Flight) 

10. Steep Turns. 5 SEAPLANE OPERATIONS 

'!"!. ~~t=Stalls 5 1. Taxiing. Seiling. Docking 

- .<; ' t: Aific. Flight Charect•istics 2. Stap."Tax-i & Turrt5 -

13. I"'C....,....t Failure " 3. Glassy/Rough Water T .OJLandings 

LANDINGS "' . 4. Normel Tlllr.eaff & Landings "' ' 

14. Norm~l ' 5. CI'O$SWind T .0. & Landingr 

15. From an JJ..S "' .s:- OTHER 

16. CfOBI'find .s 6. Ski Plane Ops. (when applicable} I 

17. With Simulated PowerPtant(s) Failure ·- GENERAL 

18. Rejected L11nding > 7. Judgment I .S I l 

19. From Cireling Approach 5 8. Crew Coordination I ., 

EMERGENCIES 

20. Normal and Abnormal Procedures IS I 1 AIRMAN COMPETENCY INFORMATIONo 

21. Emert~encv Procadures 1 '1 1 Demonstrated Current Knowledge FAR 135.293taJ 

ll'f-N INSTRUMENT PROCEDURES MakoiModel Expirft S R -'R, 0 (12 months) I I 

22. Area Departure " Demonstrated Competency .FAR 135.293Cb) 

I Olf-N 

23.Holding s Make/Model Expi;.. sR ~2(} (12 months) I 

24. Area Arrival s s.tisfactority Demonstrated Line Checks I :i-. / ¥,'-'_ 

25. ILS Approaches s FAR 135.299 Expires 112 months) 

26. Other Instrument Approaches 

- s.tilfactorily Demonstntted tFR .Prof"ICWncy j (} -Ji.J I App<CO<:hes: NOB/AOF 

--- FAR 136.297 Expires I 6 months) I 

-YeA K N M 6-f'S 2.. -1 s Use: of Autopilot {is) U.....) Author~ed. 0 '{ -1'-j, ILS '? >.{ 4-1-5~ s Expires 112 months) I 

Oth .. !s-ify} LPY :s I s REMARKS 

27. Circling Approaches :; 135:277 C A.a/(rr~:li> Scrhsh doy 

28. Milllld Approaches 

29. Co.mm.INav. Procedures s ·" 

r -.'of Auto. Pilot s . 

- )!!i._,.,;,..., ..... 0 SatiriactMV R<. ,.;.TOF CHECK AIRMAN"S 

'CHECK Oo-nd f PERFORMANCE (FAA Only} Ounsetiafactort 

REGION DISTRICT bFFICE FAA INSPECTOR·a SIGNATURE 

£~Mn ;..,-

- bf+-os- L /?/7/2.. . 1./ ' 77 FAA Fonn 841().3 16-811 

U.S. G.P.O . . 1999 568-3 110007 
Adventure, Commerce, and Service 

We live in a complex world, and there's not 

much we can do to change that reality. But when it 

comes to such basic things as our mission statement, 

short, sweet, and simple is the only way to go. That's 

why I pushed for adoption of a new Flight Staudards 

Service mission statement, one that explains the 

what, the why, and the who of what we do in a way 

that everyone can easily remember. Our mission is: 

To assure the safety, while enabling the adventure~ commerce and service of aviation. 

For me, and I hope for you, this simple statement captures the essence and the heart of what 

the FAA Flight Standards Service is charged to do. 

But let me take a moment to talk about the individual elements. 

Adventure: Aviation is very much about adventure, 

and about having fun- the focus of this issue of FAA 

Safety Briefing magazine. Much of what the FAA does 

is necessarily associated with commercial aviation, 

so I put "adventure" right at the beginning of the 

mission statement. I want to be sure we remember 

that enabling the fun, adventure, and passion of 

personal flying is also an important part of the FAA's 

aviation safety mission. 

Commerce: The FAA's mission with respect to commercial aviation is better known, and understandably 

so. Civil aviation contributes $1.3 trillion to our 

economy and generates more than 10 million jobs in 

the United States alone. Millions of people travel by 

air each day, and the work we do contributes to making our aviation system the envy of the world. 

Service: Aviation serves not only our nation's 

economy, but also the American spirit of service aud 

volunteerism. Our safety work euables and facilitates 

the kind of service performed through programs like 

BAA's Young Eagles, Grace Flight, Pilots 'n Paws, and 

nlliilerous others. 

Safety: Assuring safety might seem to be the most 

obvious component of our mission statement, but 

I wantto spend a little more time explaining the 

nuances of our safety role. 

The Flight Standards Service has three main 

safety functions: setting the certification standards 

for airmen and operators; issuing certification based 

on those standards; and conducting oversight and 

surveillance of certificate holders to assure continued operational safety. 

·-Though the FAA clearly has a significant role 

in assuring continued operational safety, everyone 

bears that responsibility. The FAA cannot ~'inspect 

safety into the system:' It is the duty of each individual and each organization that we certificate to operate in accordance with the established standards. 

The agency's role is to verify that certificate holders 

continue to meet standards. 

The FAA has a wide range oftools to perform 

the functions associated with continued operational 

safety. Because enforcement is the most obvious 

tool, it is often the first to be used. My message to the 

FAA's inspector workforce, though, is that enforcement may not be the most effective means of achieving compliance and, more importantly, it may not be 

the best way to achieve our goal of promoting safety. 

In fact, I believe that an enforcement-only approach 

is counterproductive. It obscures the goal of achieving safety compliance. It misses opportunities to 

educate. It undermines efforts to develop a strong 

safety culture. It wastes FAA aud industry resources. 

And it dilutes our ability to focus on real risk. 

My staff is working on updated guidance for 

our inspectors that outlines a more thoughtful 

approach. The key question is what best serves 

our safety promotion goal. Enforcement should be 

reserved for events and incidents where intentional 

disregard, flagrant safety violations, dangerous 

complacency, or outright stupidity pose a systemic 

threat to continued operational safety in aviation. 

For an uninteutional infraction, I want inspectors 

to first seek resolution via positive, corrective action 

that most likely would include additional education 

and skills training. 

Thank you for the passion you have for aviation 

safety, and for helping to keep the adventure, commerce, and service of aviation alive and well. 

July/August 2012 Safety•' ·· 
ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC 

727 WINDSOCK LANE 

FACTORYVILLE PA 18419 

WILLIAM DOBITSCH 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE PA 18419 

pay 12d Code 

WILLIAM 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE 

DOBITSCH 

PA 18419 

ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC 

727 WINDSOCK LANE 

FACTORYVILLE PA 

name. 

WILLIAM DOBITSCH 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE PA 

23500.00 

Statement 

DAA 

~~~ 2-To Be Filed With Employee's State, Ci or local Income Tax Return. a Employee's soc. sec. no. 1 wages, tips, other camp. 

23500.00 3 Social security wages 

b Employer ID number (EIN) 23SOO.OO 5 Medicare wages and tips 

23500.00 c Employer's name, address, and ZJP code 

ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC 

727 WINDSOCK LANE 

FACTORYVILLE PA 

d Control number 

1 e Employee's name, address, and ZIP code 

WILLIAM DOBITSCH 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE PA 

7 Social security tips 8 Allocated tips 

10 Dependent care benefits 11 Nonqualified plans 

13 Statutory employee 14 Other 

SUI 18.80 Retirement plan 

Third-party sick pay 

PAT J 23500.00 

15 State Emolover's state ID number 16 State waaes, ti s, etc. 

18 Local wages, tips, etc. 19 Local income lax 

23500.00 235.00 

Form W-2 Wage and Tax Statement 2012 DAA 

18419 

18419 

721.51 

Depl of the Treasury-- IRS 

I 41-0852411 OMB No_ 1545-0008 

2 Federal income tax withheld 

4 Social security tax withheld 

987.00 6 Medicare tax withheld 

340.81 

18419 

Suff. 

18419 

9 

12a Code 

12b 

12c Code 

12d Code 

I, 721.51 

17 State income tax 

20 Locality name 

66 

Dept. of the Treasury-- IRS 
ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC 

DBA SEAMANS AIRPORT 

727 WINDSOCK LANE 

FACTORYVILLE 

WILLIAM 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE 

DOBITSCH 

ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC 

DBA SEAMANS AIRPORT 

727 WINDSOCK LANE 

FACTORYVILLE 

WILLIAM 

RR2 BOX2113 

FACTORYVILLE 

DOBITSCH 

PA 18419 

PA 18419 

PA 18419 

PA 18419 

597.18 

Dept. of the Treasury- IRS 

~~:'/i:'l~~~:.J~~·.,:Ji':e1:~~~:;,~ ~~E~~ ~~r~b~~aif ~er~~rrif oM 

~~~ 2-To Be Filed With Employee's State, I 41-0852411 

Ci or Local l"n-r.Ome Tax Return. OMB No. 1545-0008 

a Employee's soc. sec. no. 1 Wages, tips, other comp. 2 Federal income lax withheld 

19450.00 3 Social security wages 4 Social security tax withheld 

b Employer 10 number (EIN) 19450.00 1205.90 5 Medicare wages and tips 6 Medicare tax withheld 

19450.00 28209 c Employe(s name, address, and ZIP code 

ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC 

DBA SEAMANS AIRPORT 

727 WINDSOCK LANE 

FACTORYVILLE PA 18419 

d Control number 

1 e Employee's name, address, and ZIP code Suff. 

WILLIAM DOBITSCH 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE PA 18419 

7 Social security tips 8 Allocated lips 9 

10 Dependent care benefits 11 Nonqualified plans 12a Code 

13 Statutory employee 14 Other 12b 

SUI 8.12 Retirement plan 12c Code 

Third-party sick pay 12d Code 

PA I' J 19450.00 I 597.18 

15 State Employer's state 10 number 16 State waoes, tios, etc. 17 State income tax 

1 B Local wages. ijps. etc. 19 Local income tax 

19450.00 194.50 

Fonn W-2 Wage and Tax Statement 2013 DAA 

ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC 

DBA SEAMANS AIRPORT 

727 WINDSOCK LANE 

FACTORYVILLE 

WILLIAM 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE 

DAA 

DOBITSCH 

PA 

PA 

20 Locality name 

66 

Dept. of the Treasury-- IRS 

18419 

18419 

597.18 

Dept. of the Treasury-- IRS 
ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC 

727 WINDSOCK LANE 

FACTORYVILLE 

WILLIAM 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE 

WILLIAM 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE 

DOBITSCH 

DOBITSCH 

PA 18419 

PA 18419 

PA 18419 

ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC 

727 WINDSOCK LANE 

PA 

name. 

WILLIAM DOBITSCH 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE PA 

DAA 

~::e! 2-To Be Filed With Employee's State, Ci or Local Income Ta Return. a Employee's soc. sec. no. 1 Wages, tips, other comp. 

1750.00 3 Social security wages 

b Employer ID number (EIN) 1750.00 5 Medicare wages and tips 

1750.00 c Employer's name, address, and ZIP code 

ENDLESS MOUNTAINS AIR, INC 

727 WINDSOCK LANE 

FACTORYVILLE PA 

d Control number 

1 e Employee's name, address, and ZIP code 

WILLIAM DOBITSCH 

RR 2 BOX 2113 

FACTORYVILLE PA 

7 Social security tips 8 Allocated lips 

1 o Dependent care benefits 11 Nonqualified plans 

13 Statutory employee 14 Other 

SUI 1.23 Relireme/11 plan 

Third-party sick pay 

PA 1

. J 1750.00 

15 State Emolover's state 10 number 16 State waqes, tips, etc. 

18 Local wages, tips, etc. 19 Local income tax 

1750.00 17.50 

--IRS Form W-2 Wage and Tax Statement 2014 OAA DAA 

18419 

18419 

53.73 

Dept of the Treasury - IRS 

I 41-0852411 

OMB No. 1545-0008 

2 Federal income tax withheld 

4 Social security tax withheld 

108.50 6 Medicare tax withheld 

25.38 

18419 

Suff. 

18419 

9 

12a Code 

12b 

12c Code 

12d Code 

I 53.73 

17 State income tax 

20 Locality name 

66 

Dept. of the Treasury- IRS