Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime Translation 
(CART) system used in the Communications Subcommittee Meeting #7 and is generally 
unedited.  The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with 
hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available 
to the public on the internet during the meeting.  

                                                                   
 1







                        x-----------------------------------------x

                        :  UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD             :

                        : RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE :

                        x-----------------------------------------x



                           COMMUNICATIONS SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING #7



                                  TELECONFERENCE

                                *DRAFT TRANSCRIPT*



                             Thursday, August 7, 2014

                                    1:00 p.m.















               Staff Location: United States Access Board
                               1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000
                               Washington, DC  20004

               Reporter:  Sandra Gartrell



                                                                     2



                              P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S



                         PAUL BEATTY:  We have an agenda.  Everybody should

               have received it by email as well as it is posted on the

               RVAAC website.  So we are ready to start.  I want to welcome

               everybody to the seventh meeting of the Communications

               Subcommittee.

                         As you know, anybody may participate in the

                subcommittee discussions so no time of public comment has

                been scheduled during this two-hour call.

                         As you know, we do have CART, but at this point

                we have not brought up the CART link.  So we are asking if

                anyone participating only by using CART and they desire to

                ask a question or make a statement, please alert us by

                sending an email to RVAAC@access-board.gov.  So that is

                RVAAC@access-board.gov.  Once we have the chat box up, we

                will be able to monitor that and let you know at that

                time.

                         When speaking, please remember to give your name.

                         As a reminder, this is our last subcommittee call

                before our full Committee meeting in September.  At this

                point we have not planned the agenda completely.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Hello.  This is Terry and I am

               thinking we lost Paul, perhaps.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Paul's still here.

                                                                     3



                         TERRY PACHECO:  All of a sudden you went off in

               the middle of a word.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Probably (inaudible).

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Did you have anything else you

               wanted to add, Paul?

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Now I shifted to another microphone.

               Is this better?

                         <<<:  Sounds good here.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Thank you.  Battery must be going

               dead on that one.

                         I indicated that in the Access Board conference

                room we have Melissa and Lisa, myself and no other staff

                members are present.  Jim Pecht, regrettably, had another

                function he was required to be at.  Doing the webinar,

                that's where Jim is.

                         I would like to go now to introductions on who is

                on the line.  If you could just state your name and what

                organization you represent.

                         Go ahead.  So chime in.

                         RALPH CARLSON:  Ralph Carlson with Community

               Transportation Association.

                         CRYSTAL LYONS:  This is crystals Lyons with

               Southwest Transit Association.

                         GLENN MILLIS:  Glenn Millis, Washington

               Metropolitan Transit Authority.

                                                                     4



                         JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ:  Janice Schacter-Lintz

               from Hearing Access Program.

                         CALVIN GIBSON:  Calvin Gibson, Federal Railroad.

                         DON FABIAS:  Don Fabias with Multi-K Engineering

               Services.

                         SHERYLYNN:  Sherylynn with Federal Railroad

               Administration.

                         LISE HAMLIN:  Lise Hamlin, Hearing Loss

               Association of America.

                         This is Lise again.  Andrew Phillips is also on

                the line, he is looking at this through CART, National

                Association of the Deaf.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  That was Lise Hamlin.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  And Andrew?

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Andrew; okay.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  I'm Terry.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Terry, can you hear me?  This is

               Paul Beatty.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Yes, Paul.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  At this point I know we have Andrew

               and Lise and Terry and Robert and Crystal on the line.

               Anyone else on the line?

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Blair Slaughter from Amtrak.

                         JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ:  I don't know if I

               unmuted.  I'm on the line as well.

                                                                     5



                         PAUL BEATTY:  Anyone else?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Frank Maldari, MTA, New York.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Anyone else?  (Chime).

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Sounds like someone else just

               joined us.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  At this point, Terry, I will turn it

               over to you and take it from here.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Okay.  Thank you, Paul.  Hello to

               everyone.

                         <<<:  Hello.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  It is hard to believe -- I can't

               believe, this is our seventh meeting.  In some ways it seems

               like we have been working together forever and others I

               would not have thought it would have been that.

                         As Paul pointed out, we only have one more

                meeting.  This is our second to last meeting before the

                September 11 and 12 meeting with the Committee as a whole

                in Washington.  And looking over the issues and such from

                way back in the original meetings in Washington, we have a

                lot of work to still get done.

                         What I would like to do today -- I assume you

                have all seen the email we sent out yesterday with the

                agenda and that summary, principles.  I think that

                basically -- I just want to see if anyone had any comments

                on the principles.  I think that basically says what we

                                                                     6



                have been striving for and what we have been using as a

                prerequisite and how we have been handling making the

                decisions we have on the information that is on the

                updated table, Jim's updated table from our last meeting

                and that is also included in this document.

                         I know a couple of people who sent me some emails

                with some interesting things since then.  I am sorry I

                have not gotten back to you.  I have had very intermittent

                email over the last few days.  We are doing some

                remodeling in our house and at the moment the best thing I

                have for email is my I-Phone and I am not good at that

                little tiny keyboard to send things back.  So you will all

                be hearing from me, anybody that has written to me will be

                hearing from me later in the week, hopefully when I get

                Internet again.

                         The footnotes after the tables were the comments

                that were sent in in the past.  I added a couple of things

                to them when I was rereading it recently.  I think they

                are pretty self-explanatory.

                         What I would like to know if anybody has any

                comment on any of this at this point before we move on to

                some of the other things that we need to be looking at by

                September 11?

                         And hearing nothing, we can see that that is

                completed.  Some of the other issues have been completed.

                                                                     7



                         We still have several things to do and if you

                look at Item 5-C on the agenda, those things I think we

                need to discuss today are those numbers 1, 2 and 3.  If we

                can get through these, that will put us in much better

                stead for the meeting on the 11th.

                         The first one is how to make stop request devices

                in vestibules accessible.  I would personally like to hear

                from the rail folks on the call as to what you see the

                future trains to have for stop request devices in the

                vestibules, be it in the vestibules or at seating.

                         I would like to hear from any of you from the

                various railroad companies on that.  Anybody wants to take

                the ball?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  I'll try to answer from our point

               of view here.  The commuter railroads we typically -- there

               aren't any stop request buttons or any way of indicating

               such.  I mean, it is standard station stops.  What we do and

               how we -- emergency access to the crew, if there is a need

               to contact the crew for any reason, typically in the

               vestibule area and typically a button activated switch that

               connects you to a crew member in an operating cab.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  And is that accessible with a

               wheelchair and with a sign, raised lettering or braille or

               something?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  That is a good question and I was

                                                                     8



               looking at it closely.

                         Typically on the commuter rails -- I'm not sure

                if you are familiar with our vestibules, but if you can

                picture the vestibules, a windscreen as soon as you walk

                in.

                         And typically all the equipment is usually toward

                the car side, toward the wall side.  So it is located on

                the door side of the vestibule on the exterior wall.

                There is currently a button there.  It is pretty typical.

                There is not enough room to put a sign that meets the

                requirement for raised lettering and braille.  It is

                pretty my -- for the commuter rail it is pretty standard

                in the size -- I will bring a picture with me when we come

                to give you an idea.

                         And, you know, it is accessible.  You know,

                depending on if you happen to be in a wheelchair, you have

                to maneuver it because it is toward the wall of the car,

                toward the door, but it is accessible and you can access

                it.  The only thing that you really can't do or the only

                thing that we don't currently do is have the raised

                lettering and braille on there.  Typically it is a

                relatively small sign because it is a relatively small

                panel and a relatively small area there.  So it is

                accessible, but the difficulty would be in trying to make

                a sign big enough and fit it in the space that is

                                                                     9



                available.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Roughly how much space is it?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  It is about 3,6-inches, something

               like that, about three to four inches wide and -- there is a

               speaker button that lights after you push it.  You push the

               button, lights on and someone has to answer it in one of the

               cabs and get back to you.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Something that is two or three

               words like "crew connection" something like that, "to

               contact crew", that can absolutely be done in raised

               lettering or in braille, no problem?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  If you put "crew connection",but

               right now there is also instruction on how to operate it.

               So it is push button, wait for crew to answer and then

               speak, so it gets to be a lot.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  I was thinking in a 3 x 6 area you

               could get roughly in braille particularly, you can get about

               10 or 12 words.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  The whole panel is 3 x 6.  I will

               send a picture of the sign.  You know, it just so happens

               that is where it is located.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Right.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Not just a lot of real estate.

               Typically a windscreen there and something on the

               windscreen.  I mean, it is just the way it is.  Not to say

                                                                    10



               it couldn't change.  Like we said before, once you start

               putting larger signs on there, it does change.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Right, I know.  I was just

               curious.  Because with that kind of space you could get

               eight to 10 words in braille, like a braille overlay on the

               printing could work, as a possibility, as something that can

               be done.

                         I think the thing we all need to keep in mind

                with the recommendations we are coming up with, that we

                are not looking at them so much for retrofitting as we are

                so much for the future.  It is just something that perhaps

                could be done, you know, new in the future.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  I wanted to ask Frank, is that

               emergency communication device, that's coming out of what

               the FRA has mandated for emergency communication between

               passenger and crew, right?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Yeah.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Okay, okay.  So that device

               functionally is already, you know, is on for new vehicles.

               And, of course, from the Amtrak side we are in the same

               situation that a lot of the rail companies are.  We run on a

               schedule and we don't have stop requests, but I think what

               you would be -- if you look at some of your street cars and

               trams and things like that, it is probably a little more

               relevant.

                                                                    11



                         TERRY PACHECO:  Anyone else before I pick on

               somebody?

                         LISE HAMLIN:  I am wondering if somebody --

               because it is not our purview, but I was wondering if

               someone from my regulations could send me what the FRA regs

               are on the emergency buttons.  Because I'm wondering if

               somebody who is deaf or hard of hearing pushes one of those

               buttons, how they know someone is responding to them or

               communicating with them.  That's not a signage issue, so I

               don't want to get distracted here.

                         If someone could send it to me offline, I would

                really appreciate that.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  And, you know, it may not be a

               signage issue but it is a communication issue.  That is a

               very good point, I think.

                         LISE HAMLIN:  Right, right.

                         DON FABIAS:  This is Don.  I'm representing Steve

               Rowland with LTK.

                         Is it possible, listening to Frank, to be able to

                have like a clear overlay over the existing sign, that

                overlay has braille, you now, embossed or whatever on it,

                but you can still look through it to see the regular

                verbiage?  That way it is not taking up additional space,

                but taking up the same amount of space.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Overall, yes, it is very possible.

                                                                    12



               It just depends on how much verbiage there is.  It is very

               common to see signage that has a braille overlay.  It is

               very doable, but, again, it does depend on how much verbiage

               there is.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Yeah, but the current ADA

               regulations -- Tom is your name?

                         DON:  Don.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  I'm sorry, Don.  The current

               verbiage for the sign require it to be in a different area

               and it can't be overlaid.  So when we are talking about

               these things, you are referring back to an ADA standard, an

               access standard, that requires the braille to be located in

               an area separate from where the word is.

                         So, yeah, that is one of the things we had talked

                about.  That is why I was asking is braille important or

                raised lettering.  Because if braille is important --

                because there are signs that we currently have that have

                braille on them and still have small lettering.  So you

                can use the braille.  But if you need braille, raised

                lettering, that becomes a big sign.

                         And the point I was making at other times is if

                you don't have the requirement associated with the

                building standards where you have a lot of room and real

                estate in which to put the signs, then it is a lot easier

                to incorporate braille, for one thing.  You just missed

                                                                    13



                the raised lettering and not have to make a sign that is

                really big.  That is the --

                         Now, for me, it all depends on the location.  But

                a lot of the signs are in a small area.  Currently the

                fonts are 3/7, inches you increase it to 5 inches and you

                make it required and allocate a separate space for the

                braille, which is currently required.  You increase the

                size of a decal four or five times and that kind of impact

                is pretty big.

                         You know, putting braille on a decal, like you

                said, if you make it an overlay, not a big deal, you know.

                I mean, they do it now.  It is not impossible.  And does

                it make it a little more difficult to read?  Maybe.  But

                if you didn't have a large lettering that would save you

                some.

                         Terry, is that a problem for you?  If you think

                you have the overlay with the braille over the writing

                itself?

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Well, there are a couple of

               different ways in which to do it which greatly diminish the

               problem.  One of them is there are ways of putting braille

               with print -- doing it almost like double spacing so that on

               one line you have the braille and on the next line you have

               the print.  That is one possible way of doing it.

                         There are other also -- another thing that can be

                                                                    14



                taken into consideration is the color contrasting on your

                print to begin with, the size and the color contrasting.

                         If you have got a beige background with white

                lettering, that is going to be hard for anyone to read to

                begin with and then you put braille on top of it, it makes

                it more difficult.

                         Whereas if it was a beige background with black

                lettering or bolded lettering, it may be a far easier

                thing for someone to be able to read through with the

                braille overlay.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  And, generally speaking, our

               standard is white lettering on a black background.  That is

               typically what we use at Long Island.  For some reason the

               TA uses the opposite.  Is one better than the other from

               your perspective?

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Some people have a preference for

               one over the other.  I heard black background and white

               foreground.  I have heard that being used because it doesn't

               show up graffiti easily.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Oh, that is one way of looking at

               it.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  I don't know.  I heard that.  I

               wouldn't swear by it but that is my understanding.

                         CHRIS HART:  Hey, you guys.  It is Chris.  I don't

               know if (inaudible) is on the call, but pretty sizable

                                                                    15



               amount of research looking at why black on white or white on

               black, all of that.  Some of it was I believe, three, four,

               five -- industry is trying to really backup the overall

               conventional wisdom.  I am not fully versed in that area.

               We have to send something at some point.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Chris, that would be great.  And

               if you could connect me with the person that you're talking

               about, I also have a doctor out in California who is

               putting -- who is supposed to be putting some backup

               information together for us as well.  I had hoped that he

               would have it done by today, but that didn't -- has not

               happened.  But he has committed to putting together a

               considerable amount of information for us.  I know he is

               working with the -- he works for a low vision clinic out on

               the West Coast and he is putting a lot of information

               together for us that we can use for best practices and

               potential requirement alterations.

                         JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ:  When we were talking

               about the email, the only thing I want to point out, I know

               sometimes when I receive business cards that have braille,

               sometimes I can't see the print because of the way the

               braille is put on.

                         So I like the idea of putting the braille on a

                separate line, like the double spacing, like Terry

                suggested.  We just have to be thoughtful that we put the

                                                                    16



                braille in a way that it doesn't impair, then, the visual

                images for people who don't need braille.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Absolutely.  One of the issues on

               why you have so much trouble reading business cards that

               have braille on them is that business cards -- the print

               tends to be in such small font.  You rarely see a business

               card with a font of more than 10 points, if that.  That is

               part of where your problem is with that, absolutely.  That

               is why I have not brailled my own cards because I have not

               figured out how to solve the issue of putting braille on and

               making it visible.  The only stuff I have seen people will

               put a sticker on back of a business card with everything in

               braille on the back.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Yeah.  And the other thing too is

               perhaps not to use 8 or 10 point print.  Anyway, we are

               getting totally --

                         JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ:  Just something to keep in

               mind.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Yes.  You are making a very good

               point, Janice.  Thank you.

                         I would like to ask one more question on this

                issue of the emergency exits.

                         There was somebody and I know your last name is

                Miller -- and your first name got me altogether -- from

                WMATA.  I think you would be good where subway cars are

                                                                    17



                concerned and you will be putting in the new trolleys in

                D.C.  Do you have anything you can add on the issue?

                         GLENN MILLIS:  This is Glenn.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Glenn, thank you.  I couldn't

               think of your first name.  Sorry.

                         GLENN MILLIS:  That is fine.  I think a lot of the

               comments you heard before apply to subway cars.  We have

               scheduled stops, that is it.  We try not to, but sometimes

               we will stop in a tunnel.  That is temporary.

                         We do have buttons for communication in our cars

                for emergencies and they are accessible, they are

                brailled.  We have one at either end of the car and one at

                the wheelchair parking area, at the middle door of the

                car.

                         And, you know, the decision was made a long time

                ago to put them in as many places as possible.  But those

                are for emergency purposes and I am not sure they do

                provide a visual indication.  But we do have signage there

                and while anyone is in Washington you are free to look at

                those.  You will find them on the 6000 and 7000 series

                cars.  We do not have vestibules so that is actually quite

                outside of our area.

                         On the trolleys, D.C. Government is going to

                operate that at the moment.  So I can't speak to that.  I

                have not actually seen those cars.

                                                                    18



                         TERRY PACHECO:  All right.  Thank you.  I was

               curious about them.

                         I know the ones on the train you are -- because I

                had to use one recently when the doors closed before six

                blind people finished getting off the train and we left a

                few on the train and a few on the platform and they were

                from all out of town and it came in very handy having the

                emergency communication button.

                         Does anyone else have anything to add on that

                subject?

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  I'm about to email to you the

               link for the FRA requirement for the passenger emergency

               intercom.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Okay.  Great.  Can you email it to

               Lisa as well because I don't have email today.

                         CHRIS HART:  Blair, can you send it to Paul so he

               can keep track of it?

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  To the RVAAC.

                         CHRIS HART:  Yeah.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Thank you, Blair.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  One thing I wanted to note, I

               think if you see the requirement you will see it has to be

               readable in the dark, photoluminescent.  And we changed it

               to be photoluminescent in the dark.  That adds more glow out

               of the sign so you can actually read it in the dark.

                                                                    19



                         TERRY PACHECO:  Okay.  All right.  The next

               subject that was on here was the backup power to service

               emergency notification devices.

                         Again, I think we -- I know for those of us who

                are not in the design area, if we put -- if the signs were

                on -- if everything that we put on our table was on the

                vehicles today, what would happen in the case of a power

                outage?  You know, do trains have emergency backup power

                for the notification systems?  Anybody?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Typically our PA and stuff runs

               off the car battery.  So if you lose your main power, for

               some reason, there is a backup, typically.

                         You know, as far as exactly what you lose, if you

                lose main power, that's interesting question.  I mean,

                typically it is the third rail or overhead catenary power

                or ATP coming across.  In all those cases there is a

                battery backup.  I think that is the question you're

                asking, typically there is.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Right now there in new

               equipment there are requirements -- twofold.  One with this

               passenger intercom, there are requirements for, as you were

               saying, backup power.  It says backup power in the regs

               under the FRA.  There is a requirement for backup power for

               the intercom systems going forward.  And we, like Frank,

               have the interest in all that has always been run off the

                                                                    20



               car battery.

                         But there is with new systems an increasing

                concern that communication and emergency lighting have

                battery systems that would take care of damage.  And the

                reason that is done because on most single levels the

                batteries are underneath the car.  So if you have a fairly

                catastrophic incident where the car is on the ground or

                rolling, you could lose those batteries.  So there are

                discrete batteries that are closer to the source of, in

                most cases, the lights with the idea being if you cut the

                car in half, you wouldn't lose those lights if their local

                batteries were okay.

                         So I don't know if we want to get that involved,

                but certainly there is a precedent out there for those

                kind of backup systems, if they make sense.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  So I guess -- I'm sorry, can you

               hear me?

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  I can hear you.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  I wasn't sure if I had muted

               myself.

                         I guess what I'm saying -- what I'm suggesting --

                and I'm wondering what the feeling is of the

                subcommittee -- should we be making the recommendation

                that the notification systems that we are recommending,

                i.e., the induction loop system, any video system,

                                                                    21



                anything that is electronic, that is not a static sign, as

                such, but a VMS, that type of thing, we should be

                recommending a requirement that they be a part of the

                emergency backup power system?  Does that make sense to

                folks?

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Can I read what the backup

               power, PA and intercom systems?

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Please.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  And this is from 49CFR Part

               238.121, emergency communication.  It says backup power:  PA

               and intercom system on Tier 1 passenger cars ordered on or

               after April 1, 2008, placed in service for the first time

               April 1, 2010.  And all Tier II passenger cars should have a

               backup power system capable of operating in all equipment

               orientations within 45 degrees of vertical; two, operating

               after the initial shock of a collision or derailment

               resulting in the following individually applied

               accelerations: longitudinal, 8g; lateral, 4g; and vertical

               4g.

                         Part 3:  Powering each system to allow

                intermittent emergency communication for a minimum of 90

                minutes.  Intermittent communication shall be considered

                equivalent to continuous communication during the last 15

                minutes of the 90-minute period.

                         It is pretty good reg babble, as Dennis would

                                                                    22



                say.

                         The preservation of communication, was the intent

                of this, so maybe the sanity is to piggyback onto that,

                since we are talking about PA announcements should be

                replicated.

                         The tough part is going to be if there is

                emergency communications going on that gets us out of the

                world of canned announcements.  So that could be a little

                tricky.

                         JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ:  I think it makes sense

               that it is a really good point that the loop should be on

               the emergency backup.  Because if the system goes down and

               you can't hear the loop, if we are relying on that for

               emergency announcements.

                         LISE HAMLIN:  I would agree.  I'm not an engineer,

               but it would surprise me if loop system would draw a lot of

               power.  Maybe we should look into that kind of thing.  I

               would think it makes sense to piggyback.

                         We could also look whether a visual alerting

                system, you know, what kind of power that draws and

                whether it is realistic to also piggyback on the same kind

                of emergency regulations that are out there.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Anyone have anything to say on the

               opposite side?

                         Then it sounds like we are in agreement on this

                                                                    23



                issue.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Since we are talking about the

               public address system and we are essentially saying that

               anything that is going to be broadcast via the audible PA is

               going to be part -- also broadcast on the hearing loop and

               ideally individual messaging system as far as practical.

               Obviously if you are in a true emergency situation that

               might not work.

                         It would seem quite reasonable that if we extend

                what a public address system from purely audible to

                induction loop and visual, then it almost by default

                connects itself back to this.  That may be something that

                our folks at the Access Board want to link back to the FRA

                requirements for the PA so it matches and doesn't

                conflict.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  I think you make a good point.  I

               think you make a good point.  I think we want to make sure

               it -- that the FRA is strong as we are intending here.  I

               think that is the other side of it as well.  We need to

               meet -- I'm just not sure if we need to further clarify

               that.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  I think the FRA is talking

               about what traditional audible intercom systems and having

               to be functional after an accident.  And we are saying that

               the audible information when it is emergency information,

                                                                    24



               largely, needs to be available in other formats.  I think to

               carry on that, you want that system to apply in the same

               accident and continue working along with the audible PA.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Yes, yes.  I am just not sure -- I

               need to reread it again in black and white in front of me as

               part of it.  I'm not sure that is completely explained there

               or if we don't need to add on -- to add a bit more on to it.

               Making it clear that we do mean that it is not just implied

               but it is absolutely.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  I think we need it as part of

               our language, but how the -- when the Access Board folks

               start writing the proposed rules, how that meshes so that we

               don't end up with two different rules and want to say the

               same.

                         There is also marking instructions for a

                passenger emergency intercom and it talks about the

                requirements for emergency signage for egress -- you will

                see it so we don't have to linger on it.  You will see it.

                It is a fair amount of description that goes along with

                everything about this.  It at least gives a good

                foundation of what we want to add for the visual and

                induction loop systems.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Okay, great.  Thank you, Blair.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Blair, getting back -- I just

               stepped out and I heard you talking about the non-canned

                                                                    25



               messages.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Yes.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  In an emergency situation that is

               typically when you use the non-canned message because you

               are not sure what you are going to say in a situation you

               were not planning on.

                         I guess the question is for us it is no problem

                to do speech to text conversion on the equipment that we

                have and even the equipment that we would like to buy in

                the future.  So keeping those two tied together is a

                problem now that I see and I just get worried about

                regulations that will suggest that you have to do both.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Well, yeah, Frank, I was saying

               I don't know if the system remains running, if there is --

               if part of the VMS -- I will give you an example.  We had

               some signs at one time that were scrolling signs and they

               would have messages about one thing and another for Amtrak

               and every so often they would stop and say "exit this end"

               or some safety message.  That was always the default.  So

               maybe even that is, you know, something that could be

               considered.

                         In an emergency situation voice to text is

                probably going to be even worse because now you have a

                crew in an emergency situation, depending on the severity

                of it, the machines ability to translate may get even

                                                                    26



                worse.

                         So I don't know what the solution to that is, but

                it does seem to make sense that carrying the induction

                loop along since we would be dealing with audible, this

                would be appropriate.  And then maybe something that needs

                to make sure -- especially if there is a dual purpose of

                the VMS signs to include standard emergency information.

                Say if a train passes through a dark situation where the

                main power is off, you are on emergency power.  If the

                default position for the visual system is to direct where

                emergency exits are, maybe that is one way of dealing with

                that.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  That is a good point.  I am just

               thinking it -- I think I have seen it on your equipment,

               most of our equipment as well.  You have the emergency

               information sign, I have seen it on WMATA, where you are

               giving out all the instruction of what you should do in an

               emergency, usually a photoluminescent sign.  If you lose

               power, it says "wait for instruction from a crew member."

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Right.  Just like on the

               airline.  It is key because we don't want folks abandoning a

               train, which may be the safest place to be, being hurt by

               other trains or wires or thing on the outside.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Exactly.  If you are just

               announcing this is the emergency exit and you don't want to

                                                                    27



               tell someone to go out that particular exit, we talked in

               the past every entry that sways into the car is an exit but

               maybe not the exit you want to go out -- I am not sure there

               is a good canned message, I guess I'm saying.  You can throw

               on the signs that would be applicable in all situations.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  True.

                         GARY TALBOT:  If I could chime in, I don't know if

               Chris Hart is on the call but I can contact him offline.

                         We were looking to doing that very thing because

                we knew we wanted dual mode.  If someone grabbed a

                microphone in an emergency that said, "Get off the vehicle

                and evacuate", something like that, could there be

                something they flip a button and the signs say the same

                thing, whatever it is, evacuate?  I think might be an

                option as well, something like that, that may be

                beneficial, rather than folks sitting down and saying,

                "Why are folks running off the train?"

                         LISE HAMLIN:  What happens in real life emergency

               situation for somebody who is deaf or hard of hearing is

               they turn to the person next to them and they say, "What is

               happening?" and people are really good about trying to tell

               them what is happening.  The problem is when the hearing

               people don't know what is happening.

                         So that is when like a sign like that -- again,

                if there is a major, major problem the sign itself, the

                                                                    28



                control for the sign itself gets destroyed, obviously you

                can't do anything.  But I find even in an emergency,

                hearing people have trouble finding out what is going over

                the PA system.

                         So a backup that would say "stay in place," just

                a canned announcement "stay in place" or "evacuate"

                someone needs to be trained, not just to speak the

                announcement; you flip this emergency signal.  It would be

                really helpful.  I'm just putting it out there and I'm not

                saying you have to have voice to text until it is ready.

                I'm actually pretty content with the principles here and I

                think it is helpful.  Some day in the future we will have

                voice to text.  At that point we will put it in.  When we

                don't have it we can't obviously use it.

                         In the meantime I think you can effectively use

                canned messages or it can at least help for everybody on

                the train.

                         JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ:  Having been in an

               emergency situation but not a dangerous situation but

               seven-hour delay because of snow blindness, no one on the

               train knew what was going on.  We asked the conductors

               passing by; they were too busy to stop and deal with us,

               hearing loss or no hearing loss.  No one next to us knew

               what was going on because they couldn't hear the

               announcement.  I think it is hard to predict every situation

                                                                    29



               and there has to be some sort of maybe likely set where you

               have something that says "delay" or "stay" or something.

               And you have to have some provision.  As the speech to text

               changes, the law is not going to come back and change.  So

               we have to put in some provision that allows that once it

               reaches a point where it can be done.  We don't have to come

               back and change the law.

                         We have seen before we are having the same

                problem in other areas with induction loops, where some

                people will come back and say, "Well, it doesn't say the

                word 'induction loop.'  So when we don't see a word, we

                don't have to do it."  It is irrelevant it didn't exist

                before.  So we have to plan for the future and we have to

                make sure people are safe and not dependent on the people

                next to them.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Anything else?  Okay.  We were on

               backup power.  We can drift occasionally.

                         How to make messages accessible when the vehicles

                are not station-based.  Okay.  This is something that came

                up -- I think this is most noticed by people, largely on

                subways.  I'm not picking on WMATA, but since that is the

                one I'm near most of the time, generally WMATA or the MTBA

                in Boston.  The idea that the announcement is made that

                this is a red line train to Shady Grove before it gets

                into the station, when it is pulling in before it has come

                                                                    30



                to a stop, making it virtually -- in many, many cases

                making it virtually impossible to comprehend, to hear,

                especially if there are other trains, some of these

                especially loud stations, that kind of thing.  It is

                making those signs, those announcements virtually

                inaccessible to anybody who is trying to get it audibly.

                         And I think that is the -- that is my

                understanding of what was meant when this issue was

                brought forward in the beginning, you know, a couple of

                months ago on our list.  I think that is what this was

                about.

                         I know there are -- with prerecorded messages,

                that seems to be -- that is an issue that doesn't seem to

                come into play.  It seems to be resolved with prerecorded

                messages.

                         It sometimes -- I don't know -- I honestly on

                commuter rails if the announcement is external -- it is an

                external announcement but it is on the vehicle itself.  So

                that is why it falls under our purview.

                         Does anybody have any thoughts or comments or

                suggestions on it?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  External, we have external

               speakers on a lot our cars now and typically the trick is by

               the door opening so that not every announcement that goes

               off in the car is heard on the wayside.  So there is an

                                                                    31



               announcement that occurs when you are in the station and it

               is an audible announcement.  When the doors are open and it

               usually goes on outside as well.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  So it is an announcement that says

               "Blue Line to La La land" or something?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Everybody has standards.  Usually

               this station is and the next station is this and this is the

               train to the final destination.  It is usually a standard

               announcement.  It doesn't necessarily have to be limited to,

               you know, to canned announcements.  It can be any

               announcement.  The key is where you're tying to.  For our

               equipment we typically tie it to the door opening.  You

               don't want the guy trying to have to figure out exactly

               where the announcements go all the time.

                         The one problem that we did have is depending on

                where the trains are going, it was a lot of people

                complaining in the neighborhoods about the length and

                volume of the announcements that were being made when we

                first put the equipment on a property.

                         Despite the fact it may be nicer to people on the

                platform, if you live nearby, they don't like it.  You are

                always fighting competing interests.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Yes, I know.  We had that same

               issue with accessible ped signals when they were first put

               in some places.  They have been known to be seriously

                                                                    32



               vandalized for that reason.  And, I'm sorry, but I don't

               have much sympathy for people who decide that they are

               having to listen to an announcement or someone potentially

               getting killed, you know.  Guess which one I'm going to side

               with.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  People don't want to hear horns on

               trains either, exactly.  There is always competing

               interests.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  There are.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  To answer your question, you can

               have exterior announcements and they don't have to be

               limited to canned messages.

                         I have the same problem before we got the newer

                equipment of trying to know where the train was going

                before you get on it because they didn't have the visual

                signs on them.  So typically the problem was the crew

                didn't make the announcement until they closed the door

                and a lot of good it does you then because you are already

                on your way.

                         So having the signs is helpful, but as far as

                getting the crew to make the announcements when the train

                is in the station before you get on, that can be done by

                tying it to the door opening, I think, or instructing the

                crew to make the announcement like that when the doors are

                open at the platform.

                                                                    33



                         GLENN MILLIS:  I think we all heard and discussed

               these things before.  It is something that Metro has had to

               worked at for a long time.  I know similar to other places

               we had speakers on the inside and outside of the cars and

               some of the older equipment the speakers don't work that

               well.  We have done some upgrades in the past but, frankly,

               they still don't operate that well.

                         But on our air equipment we have better speakers

                and we do have speakers on the outside of the train.  They

                do have to compete with the environment.  And, you know,

                when you have two trains, one parked, one pulling into the

                station, there is no competition.  The train pulling in

                the station wins noise hands down all the time.  But we do

                have speakers both inside and out.

                         On the quality and consistency on the messages,

                is something we have been working on.  Frankly, we have

                had to do it.  One of the things we have now are split

                lines where we have something called "rush plus" where

                depending on rush hour, what line you are on the trains

                may turn colors.  And we also added a silver line so we

                have quite a few lines operating on the same track.  So it

                becomes even more important to let customers know what

                cars you are on.

                         We sort of approached it two ways.  One is

                visual.  The cars have signs on them that are colored

                                                                    34



                keyed.  It will tell you the Red Line going to Glenmont.

                We have also tried to standardize messages.  I'm looking

                for SOP for our operators, which we do enforce, which

                tells them they have to make certain announcements when

                the door is open, "This is the Station A.  Doors will open

                on the left/right."  When it departs the station, telling

                the customers again it is the Red Line of Washington,

                D.C., to and gives the next station.

                         So we try to do that while the train is in motion

                and while it is parked.  And the advantage of the parked

                is that, you know, it is being made while the train is in

                the station.  Again competing with other sounds in the

                station.  But if you are standing there waiting for a

                train, there are speakers on every car in the train and it

                is telling you this is a Red Line going to whatever,

                Glenmont or Shady Grove.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  The thing is when you have people

               making the announcements as opposed to prerecorded

               announcements, it seems to be a judgment call on their part

               on when they are going to make the announcements.

                         GLENN MILLIS:  There is a protocol of when they

               make announcements.  Do people do their job perfectly?  Not

               100 percent thing.  We are working toward it and we are

               getting better.  I am not going to say you will hear it

               every time you ride a Metro train, but the numbers are

                                                                    35



               getting a lot better.

                         But there is an advantage in the canned message

                in that it does not fail.  We have gone to canned messages

                on our buses.  We have automated bus stop announcements.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Yes.

                         CHRIS HART:  Joe, anytime you rely on humans,

               there is going to be some margin of error, more than you

               have with mechanical devices.

                         MELISSA  ANDERSON:  I know in the bus rule,

               something that we discussed and was proposed was having

               automated announcements so that when you pulled into a

               station that announcement automatically would go off and

               also having a digitized human voice or computer voice that

               gave the announcement so that you had consistent clarity.

               So those might be two things for you guys to consider.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  I personally think that it is far

               superior.  I would really like to see that in the

               recommendation for the requirements, but I'm sure other

               people have other views on it.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  You know, Amtrak is in an

               interesting situation of having relatively short distances

               on the corridor and elsewhere in the country having long

               distance trains.  Largely on long distance trains we have

               strict rules about announcements at night when folks are

               trying to sleep in the coaches and the sleepers.

                                                                    36



                         So the way we generally setup, rather than making

                a train wide announcement, the car attendants on the

                sleepers and coaches will go because they know where their

                passenger are.  Say they are from Iowa, and they will go

                and wake that person in the coach or multiple folks in the

                coach and sleeper so they get off at their appointed

                station to tell them we are in Iowa.  I just want to make

                sure that we keep that aspect in front of us so we don't

                broad brush everything.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  I think you are right, Blair.  At

               least in my mind, I'm primarily thinking of that on much

               shorter trains, things more like subways and trolleys.

               Maybe some commuter rails, not something that is long

               distances, Amtrak.  For someone who takes the 3:15 a.m.

               train a lot, that is a wonderful service.  I really do like

               it.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  We will caveat those kinds of

               things with the hours of operation and it would make sense

               on even the corridor trains.  The Acelas were built to do

               just that, but the wayside infrastructure was never put in

               to trigger the trains.  The train has the capacity.  If this

               is an early morning train, you wouldn't want to start making

               the broad announcements until after 7:00 a.m. or something

               and not after 9:00 or 10:00 p.m. at night.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Good point.

                                                                    37



                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  If we could just leave a caveat

               in there for those kinds of operations, that would be great.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Yeah.  And this particular issue

               was largely external speakers, external announcements,

               announces two people on the station platform waiting for

               that train to come in.  As far as I know, we wouldn't run

               into with Amtrak, would we?  Because the announcements on

               the platform are made from the station and not from the

               train or do you have both?

                         LISE HAMLIN:  The only issue I see with the

               outdoor announcements when they differ with the signage on

               the train.  If you are going to make an announcement that

               says "this train is ending at Grovesnor," that is what it

               should say on the outside too because that is what someone

               who is hard of hearing or deaf too will depend on those

               visuals.  That is the only one I would want to link to it.

               I don't see a problem with having an outside announcement I

               don't hear as long as I can see the sign saying where I'm

               going.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  That is a good point you make.

               Maybe linking the two is not always a good idea.  Because

               typically when you are outside of the train, the main thing

               you want to know is where is this train going, maybe not all

               the stops it is making, because it is a quick thing.  In

               three to five minutes at a station, some of these trains are

                                                                    38



               moving quickly and people are boarding quickly.  Don't want

               to have all the information but maybe the more important

               thing is the end destination, which is typically what we

               display on the exterior signs.  If you try to cram in too

               much, you don't get the information that is most important.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  I was thinking that when you were

               saying what station it is and what station is the next one,

               it would seem the most important information at that point

               is possibly what station you are in, if it has not made the

               announcement prior to pulling into the station, which I

               would think would be a better way to do it.  But when it

               first opens to say, "Green Line train to Glenmont" whatever,

               that is the first piece of information anyone, especially on

               the platform, needs to know, is what train it is.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  That is a good point.  More on the

               Long Island sign we have been able to do it with station

               signs.  We have invested a lot of money and have got a lary

               (ph) signs and speaker and they continuously make

               announcements and give updates on when the train is coming

               and where the train is going on each track.  Doesn't

               necessarily have to be a car-borne setup to get the

               information you need.  You can also do it from the wayside.

                         JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ:  While I understand what

               you're saying, I disagree because in inclement weather it is

               impossible the see the sign.  When I mentioned the snow

                                                                    39



               blinding experience, we couldn't see the sign, had no idea,

               because it really needs to be in the cars.  At night it is

               hard to see it in inclement weather.  You should know where

               you are getting off on the car.  We can do it on the MTA.

               No reason why we can't have it on all rail cars across the

               country.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  That's logical.

                         All right.  Anything else on this topic before we

                move on?  I think we have certainly gotten a lot of

                viewpoints on all three of those topics today.

                         A proposed time line for completion.  We need to

                look at how soon we think we are going be able to get all

                of this done.  I think this is something we probably

                should have put a little further down on the agenda.

                         But, Paul, would you like to -- are you still

                with us, Paul Beatty?

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Yes, I am here.  I had to turn on my

               microphone.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Okay.  I'm sorry.

                         I would like to hear what you folks ideal would

                be for us to have all this done.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Ideal for having this all done?

               Well, I guess you would have had some sort of draft in front

               of you which you would have sent out to the full Committee

               and they would have gone through and made sure everything

                                                                    40



               stated in it was what the Committee wanted to have stated.

                         I heard a number of ideas regarding the last

                three issues you discussed.  I have not heard anything

                saying, "Okay, this is what the subcommittee is going to

                say."  There has been a lot of discussion, for example,

                the last one, on how to make the exterior signage

                accessible, but what is it that the subcommittee wants

                their report to the full Committee to say on that issue?

                         Now, if you are looking for a time line, you

                know, this is what we eventually want to see when you

                submit your report to the Board.  On these issues these

                are recommendations that does add to the code language.

                         Now, in terms of time line, everything sort of

                leading up to your September 11 meeting, Blair knows,

                before it goes to the full Committee, the question for me

                is whether the September subcommittee is making reports to

                the full Committee for blessings or are they using their

                time in September for an additional subcommittee meeting.

                We only have those two days.  Probably it all boils down

                to 12 hours or 11 hours.  So it sort of like let's

                maximize our time and the face-to-face meetings are needed

                to move things forward in subcommittee, great.

                         So it is almost like your second set on the

                agenda after time line regarding the September 11 meeting.

                And to me it is only getting the subcommittee to get a

                                                                    41



                sense of where they are at in terms of what is in the

                agenda.  The table, whether it is complete or not for

                purposes of communicating something to the full Committee,

                to get their comment and/or blessing.  So that is my

                thoughts.

                         Any other colleagues of mine want to add anything

                more?  Okay.  No one here at the table.  So back to you,

                Terry.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Thank you, Paul.

                         Okay.  So you all see where we are at, what we

                need do.  We got to get a draft put together.  Do I think

                we can have a draft of all of our issues and have it ready

                to go to the Committee as a whole by September 11?  I

                don't think we can do it on all of it, but I think we can

                do it on a good number of it.

                         I think we can also pull a lot together at the

                September 11 and 12 meetings primarily with some of the

                things we talked about with doing this markup with the

                signage and such that we talked about on the last call.

                         I'm assuming that that is still going forward.  I

                know Blair and Frank, you were the two primary people on

                that.  I would like to open that opportunity up to ask

                some of the other committees if they want to use it as a

                demonstration of any of their recommendations so that we

                can actually look --

                                                                    42



                         One of the things that I have long felt, and

                maybe I am just taking a bit of personal privilege here,

                is oftentimes I have seen, too often where regulations

                have been passed, regulations have gone into play that

                once we actually lived with them and discovered they are

                really not as wonderful as they were going to be at the

                time.  And that is why I am so intent on the idea of the

                markup and actually walking through some of the proposed

                recommendations of all of the committees.

                         I think we need to do that.  I think the

                disability community in general has fallen short in the

                past.  We can come up with several examples of it.  We

                don't need to get into.  But we absolutely -- I think the

                more we troubleshoot something ahead of time, the better

                off we are all going to be in the future.

                         I think that makes it better for the people with

                disabilities, for the transit companies, for the transit

                engineers, for the companies building these new vehicles.

                We just -- we need actually -- ideally, if we lived in an

                ideal world, we would be able to live with something and

                try it out for a while and see what works and what

                doesn't.  We are not able to do it.  At least we are not

                able to do that on a long term basis.  We are not ending

                up putting up committees like this that has to redo

                something every 10 years.

                                                                    43



                         I think we have the potential to at least do some

                of that with the markups that we are going to do in

                September.  But I do think that we can also have some of

                our issues -- some of our issues we have put in place, we

                have agreed on them.  At least I think we have a majority

                vote on most of them.

                         I would like to -- that is where I brought in the

                next piece that is right after the agenda, the summaries I

                put in here of the principles that we have used.

                         I would like to continue on with this summary

                based on the issues that were in the original issues

                document and that I brought up in the table and actually

                come up with what I plan to present based on all of your

                approvals at the September 11 meeting.  And hopefully

                actually in there have some things that we are actually

                ready to take to the Committee as a whole as our

                recommendations.

                         I am committing myself to have this done in time

                to email it to all of you before our next meeting, which I

                don't have a date of in front of me.  My calendar won't

                come up.  It is something like the 5th -- 4th of

                September.  I think it is the 4th.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  There are no more conference calls

               scheduled for the subcommittee.  Right now the next time you

               will be getting to this is possibly when the full Committee

                                                                    44



               meets, September 11 and 12.

                         Just from a crude planning perspective, if we

                take the 12 hours roughly and divide them, take some time

                out for the full Committee, you can say subcommittee has

                about two and a half hours and they can use that time

                either to make presentation to the full Committee and

                allow discussion and/or use that time for subcommittee

                work.  So that Communications doesn't overlap boarding and

                alighting and you get two and a half hours and no more.

                How you are going to use that time is up to the

                subcommittee and the subcommittee chair to decide.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Thank you, Paul.

                         Okay.  Let me ask this question of our committee:

                         Would you have a problem with holding another

                meeting on September 4?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  I can't make that, that date.  I

               have another meeting I'm going to.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Okay.  How about if we just do

               this by email?  Would that work better for folks?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  I think that is a good idea,

               Terry.  And one thing I wanted to go over before the meeting

               is over -- and I will let you finish, but I didn't want to

               get caught off at the end.  I wanted to spend five or 10

               minutes talking about what we are going to do about the

               presentation to make sure we are on the same page.

                                                                    45



                         I think email, if you want to send it around and

                get input is a good way to go.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Okay.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  I think we will need some time to

               see what we have in our hands and agree or have discussion

               on it.  Two hours is not a lot of time, even two and a half

               hours.  Being ready to give a report to the Committee I

               think is a little much for us to be prepared for at that

               time.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  No.  I have to give them some dive

               of a report at that time.  I can give them a report, "We

               have not done anything."  I have to do something with them

               anyhow.  I have to give them some kind of status report.

               Goes without saying.  If we can get some of our

               recommendations solidified by then, we can add those in.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Terry, in general if you're not

               going to be making a complete report to the full Committee

               for purposes of discussing your recommendations, we are just

               asking for a brief briefing.  So that could be just five

               minutes: "Here are some of the things we talked about, but

               we are not prepared to give our full report at this point in

               time" and leave it at that.

                         So just a quick status --

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Paul, what is the date of the next

               committee meeting?

                                                                    46



                         PAUL BEATTY:  September 11 and 12.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  No; the one after that?

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Not until February.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  I couldn't remember if it is

               January or February.  I just couldn't remember.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Toward the end of the month.  I

               don't have the dates in front of me.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  I couldn't remember if it was

               January or February.  That is longer than I think we

               actually need but it is going to be our option, our only

               other option, really.

                         Okay.  Thank you, Paul.

                         Let's go on to -- Frank, why don't we go into

                what your wanted to discuss about the presentation.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Yeah, okay.

                         What I was planning to do is try to get some good

                high resolution pictures like the end of the car.  I was

                going to pick one of our pieces of equipment, a couple of

                shots in the vestibule and a couple of shots in the main

                passenger compartment and then send that to Blair, who

                could hopefully scale them up and print them full size.

                And, you know, we will have a couple of decals and actual

                size and be able to play around with how they are going to

                fit on the car and see how it would be on current design.

                         We talked about using AutoCAD drawing, but if you

                                                                    47



                can accommodate printing full-size pictures that can be

                scaled up, I think that is better for people to get a feel

                of what is going on.

                         Does that seem possible for you, Blair?

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  I think so, Frank.  The sooner

               I can get an example, the sooner we can get that scaled up.

               We have a big color printer and a big black and white

               printer.  The worse case would be if our color printer is

               big and finicky.

                         And it would be handy if you put something like a

                known dimension, like a 12 x 12 --

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Right, what I was thinking so you

               know what to scale it up to, I wanted to make sure we could

               get full resolution.  And doesn't look like a lot of

               dimples, but it is also important to deal with full

               accessibility.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  So if you have something full scale

               with any information on it, we have to at a bear minimum

               have a written out description of what it is.  So whatever

               you are sending to Blair, you know, please make sure you

               copy us on it so we can at a bear minimum right a sort of

               descriptive.

                         When you are describing this, I had a picture in

                mind, maybe this 5' x 8' sheet of paper you are putting up

                against the wall that sort of shows the full scale size at

                                                                    48



                the end of a rail car.  Is that what you're talking about,

                Frank?

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Yeah, that is basically it.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Okay.  That is something we have

               never done before.  It would be interesting in terms of the

               conference room.  There is something about I can't pin

               things against the wall.  But if that is what you are

               planning to do or desire to do, at this point I assume you

               can do it and I will immediately touch base with your people

               that control your walls in the conference room and see how I

               can request about accommodating you and accommodating them

               in terms of wall mix and so forth.

                         We will need whatever you are going to do,

                obviously a small thing, so we can deal with

                accommodations, description, picture.  And if you are

                putting dimensions on it, obviously we will be including

                that in the description.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  One of the things with this, Paul,

               is the thing last week.  I was saying we are going to be

               doing some of the signs.  I just wanted to remind anybody

               that has signage that we can use it to send it to me because

               I'm going to put together signs in alternate formats to be

               able to put on -- to use as examples on this markup.

                         So they will be accessible in and of themselves,

                as far as braille, large print, that type of thing is

                                                                    49



                concerned.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Terry, do you want -- I mean, we

               have standard decals I was going to use as an example.  Do

               you want me to send you the actually drawing?

                         TERRY PACHECO:  If you can send something to me so

               I can braille it, that would be great.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Melissa pointed out and reminded me

               that this is not something you should walk in the door on

               the 11th and say, "Here are my folders" and put them up

               against the wall.

                         If you can do one at the bear minimum, maybe you

                won't use, but maybe as a test example that you can send

                to us, then we would know where we are going to put it,

                whether we can and then also how many you are talking

                about.  So do we put them one on top of the other and pull

                the curtain back and see the next one?  So if you can give

                us a test one and we can make sure we can get a wall -- we

                just need to set it up before the meeting starts.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Jim and I had talked about doing

               it a day before.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  We have a board meeting three days

               before the 11th and 12th.  They will be gone by noon on the

               Wednesday, sometimes by 3:00 or so.  I guess I'm trying to

               make a point, we need a test to make sure we can put it

               somewhere and it works and we need the others as soon as

                                                                    50



               possible and we have this small window.  If you wait until

               the last moment to get it put up and we don't want to spend

               full Committee time to try to put these on the walls and

               everyone discussing where they should go.

                         We appreciate people's help but we only have the

                12 hours, roughly, for the full Committee.  So just Frank

                and Blair, just plan for that in your planning process.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Frank, as soon as you send

               something as an example, I will send it out and roll it out

               and send it down to Paul.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Okay.  I will try to get you

               something next week.  We were trying to make sure we had the

               right resolution.  I was busy doing something else.  I'm

               thinking about, you know, about four or five, you know, five

               foot wide, you know, sections of the car.  Display them all

               together to get a feeling for what the end compartment looks

               like.

                         I also wanted to try to get some standard decals

                and present them up to scale.  And I was trying to print a

                couple of other ones blown up as well.  The important

                thing is getting an idea of the overall space that you

                have.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  And I think if we -- if you

               have raised letter in braille and standard sizing what it

               would do to a sign.  I think those are good bring-alongs

                                                                    51



               that we can add and take away to what we put on the wall.

                         And I think between our two railroads, the things

                that you encounter that we are concerned about are

                relevant enough and pretty much across the board when we

                talk about safety and information that it won't be

                relevant whether it is your cars or mine or Jersey

                Transits or whoever.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Sidewalls and end walls will be

               pretty similar.  The vestibule will vary a little bit.  But

               you really can't appreciate what is going on there unless

               you see a picture.  So I think pictures are good and if we

               can blow them up enough and not lose the resolution, I think

               would be a real good way to make a display.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Okay.  Well, let's give it a

               whirl.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Send me one as a test copy before

               you do work on the other three or five so I know we can do

               it.

                         JOSEPH SLAUGHTER:  Okay, Paul.  The first thing I

               get as an example, I will go ahead and blow it up, print it

               and send it to you so you can get an idea of the scale of

               what it is going to be.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Do we have anything else on the

               11th?

                         All right.  I will start working on the summary.

                                                                    52



                If anybody wants to take any part of it and do some work

                on it, you are more than welcome to.  Our next step is I

                will get something out to you, probably be the latter part

                of next week.  In the meanwhile, I think that pretty much

                covers our agenda now.  An absolute amazing thing, we are

                running a little ahead of schedule instead of 20 minutes

                behind as we usually are.

                         Anybody else have anything they want to bring up

                today?

                         <<<:  Not I.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  Going twice.  I think we are done

               for this afternoon and I will be in touch with you all next

               week.

                         FRANK MALDARI:  Thank you, Terry.

                         <<<:  Thank you.

                         <<<:  Bye.

                         TERRY PACHECO:  If anyone doesn't hear from me,

               just let me know and make sure -- make sure I have your

               email address.

                         JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ:  Okay.  Thank you.

                         <<<:  Bye.

                         PAUL BEATTY:  Operator, this concludes our

               conference call.

                (Whereupon at 2:29 p.m. the meeting was adjourned)