## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 ASRAC COMMERCIAL UNITARY AIR CONDITIONERS WORKING GROUP MEETING JUNE 2, 2015 A P P E A R A N C E S Karim Amrane Ashley Armstrong Ted Bantle James Battaglia Pete Cochran Dan Cohen Katie Coughlin John Cymbalsky Adam Darlington - via webinar Andrew deLaski Paul L. Doppel Chandara Gollapudi Alex Hillbrand Eileen Barkas Hoffman Jill C. Hootman Marshall B. Hunt John J. Hurst Chris Lau Michael J. McCabe Charles McCrudden Karen Meyers

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 1 Nicholas Mislak 2 Javier Ramirez 3 Kaila Raybuck 4 Greg Rosenquist 5 Michael Rivest 6 Harvey Sachs 7 Amy Shepherd 8 Michael Shows - via webinar 9 Louis Starr 10 Eric Stas 11 Mark Terzigni - via webinar 12 Rusty Tharp 13 Meg Walter 14 Detlef Westphalen 15 Robert J. Whitwell 16 Alison Williams 17 Dave Winningham 18 Xing Xu - via webinar 19 Sami Zendah 20 21 22 AUDIO TRANSCRIBED BY KYLIE S. SHEPHERD 23 24 25

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. BANTLE: Okay. Good morning, everybody. 3 All of the technology appears to be working this morning; 4 perils of switching rooms. 5 So as usual, we'll start off with introductions. 6 I'll start us off here and then we'll go to Javier, we'll 7 go around to the main table, do the side table, and then 8 the back row. So good morning, everybody, Ted Bantle 9 from Federal Mediation. 10 MR. RAMIREZ: Javier Ramirez, Federal Mediation. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 12 MALE SPEAKER: Michael Kito, DOE. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Jill Hootman, Trane. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. 15 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah, Emerson. 16 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric. 17 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, Air 18 Conditioning Contractors of America. 19 MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham, Allied Air. 20 MALE SPEAKER: John Perslex. 21 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. 22 MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers, Rheem. 23 MS. SHEPHERD: Amy Shepherd, AHRI. 24 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, AHRI. 25 MR. HILLBRAND: Alex Hillbrand, NRDC.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 1 MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski, Applied Standards 2 Project. 3 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 4 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. 5 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E and California 6 IOUs. 7 MR. STEVENSON: I'm Aaron Stevenson, a summer 8 legal intern at the Department of Energy. 9 MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin, Lawrence Berkeley 10 Lab. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, Lawrence 12 Berkeley National Lab. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen, Navigant. 14 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia, Navigant. 15 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 16 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe, Consultant Support 17 of Trane. 18 MS. RAYBUCK: I'm just going to go through the 19 people on the webinar. We have Adam Darlington, Armen 20 Howard, Diane Jacobs, Jim del Toro, Mike Terzigni, 21 Michael Shows, Michael Woodford, Mike Ray, Raquel Nieto, 22 Sam Clive, Steven Maddox, and Victor Merinick. 23 MR. BANTLE: Thank you. Okay. Any questions or 24 comments before we get started from yesterday? 25 Okay. I think we kind of had two open items.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 1 We had the proposal from the industry, the strawman, and 2 returning to dual ducts. So I will kind of look to John 3 to see where he wants to start first or if we have any 4 suggestions from the group. 5 Okay. Dual ducts? We'll switch the Power Point 6 over and we'll turn that over to Bob and Detlef. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Hello. Yeah, it works. All 8 right. So hopefully that woke everyone up. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: You're supposed to say, "play 10 ball." 11 MR. WHITWELL: Well, you didn't sing the 12 National Anthem first, John. You sing the Anthem; I'll 13 say "play ball." 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't think I know all the 15 words to the National Anthem. 16 MR. WHITWELL: That's a shame. 17 Okay. So Detlef and I worked on our assignment 18 from yesterday and we came up with a revised draft. I'll 19 just read it and then we can talk about it. Okay? We 20 can discuss it. 21 So dual-duct air conditioner heat pump means 22 air-cooled, commercial packaged air conditioner and 23 heating equipment that may be horizontal or vertical, 24 single package or split. 25 It is intended for indoor installation, with

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 1 ducting of outdoor air from the building exterior to and 2 from the unit where the unit and/or all its components 3 are non-weatherized and are not marked or listed as being 4 in compliance with UL1995 requirements for outdoor use. 5 The unit has a fan for moving outdoor air that 6 is capable of overcoming an external static pressure of 7 at least 0.2 inches water column at the rated outdoor air 8 flow rate. And if it is a horizontal unit, has a maximum 9 height of 34 inches, or has components, each having a 10 height of 34 inches, or if it's a vertical unit, each of 11 its components has a maximum depth of 34 inches. Cooling 12 capacity up to 240,000 BTU per hour. 13 So any comments, questions, concerns? 14 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. On the 15 UL1995, I think we need to -- there's an alternate UL 16 standard that can be approved to UL60335-2-40. 17 MR. WHITWELL: The emerging standard; right? 18 MR. THARP: That's the new one. So that's the 19 emerging, and everybody has to meet that by 2022 I 20 believe. So we need to include that and you may want to 21 say or equivalent to that standard. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So that 23 was -- my first suggestion was going to be to reference 24 or its subsequent version or whatever carries that 25 meaning forward that if you change the standard that

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 1 these things are referenced to, this applies to that as 2 well. 3 MR. WHITWELL: So who's -- can we -- you want to 4 edit this slide? 5 MR. THARP: And then while they're doing that, I 6 guess the other thought, just as an engineer, if the 7 intent is for products that go in the unventilated space 8 above and going through doorways and 36 inches -- 36 9 inches is the target. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Well, 36 inches would be the 11 doorway, right, so 34 -- 12 MR. THARP: So as you're trying to increase 13 energy efficiency, that additional inch or two may be -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: So go to 35, perhaps? 15 MR. THARP: So I would suggest as big as can be 16 accepted to go through a 30 -- you're not going to be 17 putting a 36-inch unit by a 36-inch door but something 18 along those lines, maybe a little bit bigger. And I 19 understand that where all the products is today, but if 20 I'm trying to fit it through the door and I'm trying to 21 get increased efficiency depending on the market. I 22 don't play in this market, my company doesn't make these 23 units -- so I don't have a dollar -- 24 MR. RAMIREZ: Andrew, let me jump in just really 25 quick because I want to capture that first change that

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 1 was suggested. So where was the first change? 2 MR. WHITWELL: So right here, UL1995. And then 3 I think in parenthesis or the equivalent. 4 MR. THARP: Or its equivalent. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Or its equivalent. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Then my question, probably a 7 little naive, but I just want to make sure there's no 8 crossover from the SPVU product category. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So the SPVU, if you look at it, 10 has no external static requirement. It says -- and I'm 11 doing this off memory -- it talks about it being mounted 12 through or adjacent to the outdoor, through the wall. 13 But it doesn't have an external static requirement. 14 Actually, Detlef, is that slide in here? 15 MR. WESTPHALEN: I think so. 16 MR. WHITWELL: So let's go down. Can we just 17 move down -- where is it? Right here. 18 So here, John. Here's the single package air 19 conditioner definition. So it talks about -- it's 20 intended for exterior mounting on adjacent interior to or 21 through an outside wall. So -- but it doesn't have an 22 external static requirement. So I mean, I think when I 23 think about these products, I think about them actually, 24 you see them through the wall, right? 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: I guess my only concern is that

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 1 I just want to get rid of any potential ambiguity where, 2 "Oh, a product can't be both." It's definitely 3 delineated. It's either an SPVU or it's one of these 4 dual-duct systems. And if everyone in the room agrees 5 that this accomplishes that -- because I'm not the expert 6 on these words -- then I'm okay with it. 7 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, this one already has a 8 significantly lower energy efficiency standard. But I 9 understand the concern about someone wanting to know 10 whether they are one or the other, right. 11 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. It sounds to me 12 like from what Bob said yesterday that the problem -- I 13 thought you said yesterday Bob, and correct me if I'm 14 wrong -- that you -- that you were suggesting that you 15 had products today that you thought might fit within the 16 SPVU definition, but that you think of as this -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Our vertical -- the 18 vertical configuration that I showed yesterday. I mean, 19 it could fit this. But then, if we add the external 20 static pressure requirement there, then I think it's more 21 clearly in the other category, the other class. 22 MR. deLASKI: In SPVU, it's -- 23 MR. WHITWELL: With the external static pressure 24 requirement. Which we have it right in our literature 25 that it can do this. We have outdoor motor options in

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 1 order to be able to go up higher statics. So I think 2 that that puts it more clearly in the dual-ducted class. 3 MR. deLASKI: Got it. Thank you. 4 MR. RAMIREZ: So let's go back, then, to the 5 definition that we had. What other modifications or does 6 this look good? 7 MR. WHITWELL: So the other thing that Rusty was 8 proposing is change the 34 inches to 35. Yeah, I mean, 9 36 -- 36, I think, is a typical door, you know, 10 commercial doorway. So we wouldn't want to -- I mean, if 11 it's 36, you can't fit through or you're confined at 12 line. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: So maybe we can put the slide 14 that Detlef showed that had all the products on it. 15 MR. WHITWELL: I think that most -- yeah, I 16 think they're more like in the 34 range, and that's where 17 the 34 came from. 18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Go up or back into the -- 19 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. That would be 20 in yesterday's presentation. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, we have a (inaudible) -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So from the slide that I see, 23 this is just the horizontal ones. 24 MR. RAMIREZ: What slide number is that? 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: Slide 29.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 1 MR. WHITWELL: I think that they're 34. 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: 33-and-a-half is the biggest in 3 the market now. So I guess what DOE was proposing here 4 was trying to preserve the market that exists today and 5 kind of kick them out of this proceeding in a way. 6 So if that -- if that is the real kind of 7 driving force behind this, I would -- I would prefer to 8 use the market as exists today, and not kind of let it 9 grow a little bit. 10 I understand what you're saying, but to me, it's 11 like we're freezing it at this point in time and saying, 12 "All right. Guys, you're good here." Going forward, 13 things can change. They can get another inch bigger or 14 whatever. 15 MR. THARP: I'm just saying, again, if it's a 16 36-inch restriction for you fitting through doors and 17 that specific area, if I, as an engineer, can go to 35 18 inches, that's going to help me get in a little bit of 19 efficiency. So that's why I'm proponent of it. Again, I 20 don't have a dog and hunt. If that's -- 34 inches is the 21 deadline, then I don't care. 22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I don't have a 23 problem with 35 inches. I think the actual issue is 24 if (inaudible) 36-inch door and it doesn't fit, there's 25 going to be hell to pay. So I have no problems with that

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 1 changing to 35. 2 I do have a question, which -- a question or 3 two, and they're linked. One of them is whether the .2 4 is enough, .2 inches external static. And the coupled 5 question to that is: My sense of the true SPVU, and 6 let's take the archetypal bard, is, it's not a big unit. 7 I don't think they get bigger than 36,000 BTU. And I 8 wonder, if we would all have an -- it's typically single 9 zone unit, portable classroom. I wonder if we'd all this 10 more comfort if a little bit of language is added to, 11 shall we say, box in the SPVU as not being one of these 12 large capacity units. 13 MALE SPEAKER: So I think they make up the 8 14 tons. I think you go outside is 8 tons. 15 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. II mean, SPVUs go up to 16 240,000 BTUs to be honest with you. There are some -- 17 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Karim. 18 MR. RAMIREZ: So let's go back, then, and I'm 19 not quite clear if the group is comfortable with 35. So 20 this is obviously -- it's a temperature vote just to see, 21 on this one component. Let's get a show of thumbs if 22 you're okay with 35. Okay. I don't see any thumbs down, 23 and can we see if Mark -- (Laughter.) Kaila, is -- can 24 Mark hear us; do you know? 25 All right. So Mark is the one member; right?

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 1 And Michael? Michael. All right. It -- Michael, can 2 you type in if you're not in agreement? Because I think 3 we're still having some -- is he okay with 35 inches? 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. I'm just 5 looking at some of the research we did looking at the 6 vertical units, and we did find one 20-ton vertical unit 7 that get up to 38 inch in depth, its smallest dimension. 8 The rest of them are all 34 or smaller. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I think -- I think at 38 10 inches, we're talk -- I mean, it's not going to be a 11 retrofit type unit unless you got a big door; right? 12 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. So Michael is good, then. 13 And is there -- is it Michael or Mark? 14 MS. RAYBUCK: Mark. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: Mark? And what about Michael? 16 Member Michael. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: While you're checking on that, I 18 have a different suggestion. I think it needs to be 19 greater than 65,000 because I don't think you can talk 20 about the scope of potentials to your standards and this 21 negotiated rule. 22 So I think it has to be 65 to 240. Because 23 really, what you're talking about here is having them out 24 of the scope of applicability of any potential amended 25 standard you come up with here, and that doesn't include

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 1 the three phase less than 65. 2 To the extent we need to have that discussion 3 elsewhere, we can. But it's not necessarily applicable 4 today. 5 MR. WHITWELL: So how -- Ashley, if we do that, 6 then we're going to have another product class for less 7 than 65 probably, right? Because they do it -- 8 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. But those 9 projects aren't subject to today's EER standards. They 10 are subject to SEER standards; right? So it's a 11 different docket. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Irrespective or whatever, if you 13 set them up in this definition, you're not setting them 14 out of the scope of anything. I think you have to do it. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Just recognize that we're -- you 16 know, that would -- if we're going to do this, then we 17 would want to recognize that as well at some point. 18 MR. deLASKI: Bob, do you think those products 19 are being certified to the SEER standard today? 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, they have. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ray, I mean just to be clear, 22 what you're doing is talking about the future standards; 23 right? I mean, they're already subject to the today's 24 standards, these of which are statutory to the 14. 25 MR. WHITWELL: I understand.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 1 MR. RAMIREZ: So let me jump in. And I think 2 we're okay because we haven't heard from Mark -- from 3 Michael. And so I will put him down as an A for now, 4 "abstain." But everyone else is fine with the 35 inches. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So then, I guess, the 6 other markup then would be to change cooling capacity to 7 say, 65,000 to 240,000 BTU per hour. Rated cooling 8 capacity? Rated -- rated cooling capacity. 9 MR. AMRANE: But -- this is Karim. I have a 10 question: Have you vetted this definition with other 11 manufacturers that make the product like United Cool Air, 12 for example, who petitioned DOE on this issue? 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, so I have not yet. But 14 I've asked our folks back in Syracuse to contact United 15 Cool Air and ask them about this. So I think, you know, 16 with these revisions, what I'd like to do is send it back 17 to them again and -- and have them take a look at it. 18 MR. deLASKI: Just in that same vein, Bob, this 19 is Andrew. We appreciate the work that you've been doing 20 on this, thanks for taking it on to you and Detlef for 21 working -- working this language forward. We also would 22 want to just check it with legal advisors who help our 23 team, so -- 24 MR. WHITWELL: So my suggestion is we get a 25 draft that we're all pretty comfortable with, and then we

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 1 come back and do a final vote next meeting on it. 2 MR. deLASKI: Yeah. And the other follow-up I 3 had for you, Karim, is I think yesterday -- I guess you 4 weren't here -- but we put up on the slide that there 5 were five identified manufacturers of this product. Did 6 we identify? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: So Carrier, Johnson Controls, 8 Liebert, Skill Air, United Cool Air. 9 MR. WHITWELL: But I think -- 10 MR. deLASKI: I'm sorry. Just to follow up on 11 that, are those all five AHRI members? 12 MR. WHITWELL: No. Skill Air? 13 MR. AMRANE: (Inaudible.) 14 MR. WHITWELL: But the others -- so the other 15 thing that's changed from that work that Detlef and 16 Navigant did is that we added the vertical configuration. 17 So I think -- 18 MR. AMRANE: So there could be more? 19 MR. WHITWELL: I think, Karim, we probably need 20 to go back to other -- throughout the AHRI membership and 21 ask about this. 22 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 23 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I'd like to 24 return to the dimensional issue for just a second. I 25 think we've heard people are comfortable with 35 inches,

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 1 and I guess the -- we -- we've just heard from Detlef 2 that there's an existing product, presumably large 3 capacity at 38 inches. 4 Now, my simple hypothesis is that's an existing 5 product, it would be straightforward for it to be wavered 6 if it's manufacturer were interested in doing that as 7 opposed to us changing the dimensions to be great -- 8 something greater than 38 inches. 9 Now, they're not here, I assume. But are people 10 comfortable with that as the waiver process to allow 11 continued production of such product? 12 MR. RAMIREZ: Any thoughts on that? 13 MR. deLASKI: Well, my thought is the guy that 14 makes the product isn't here. So I think when you go out 15 to check with the other -- 16 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Inaudible.) 17 MR. deLASKI: Whoever makes the 38-inch part 18 that Detlef found is the question, I guess, is how you're 19 going to deal with that product if that's a known 20 existing product? 21 MR. RAMIREZ: That's United Cool Air. 22 MR. WHITWELL: So we can get that input. 23 MR. deLASKI: I'm fine with that approach, 24 Harvey. I guess the question is how they feel about it. 25 So --

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 1 MR. RAMIREZ: So do we need to add an exclusion 2 in the definition here? 3 MR. deLASKI: I think you need to check with the 4 other stakeholders. 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. I was just 6 wondering about the 240,000. That certainly may be a 7 practical upper limit, but I'm wondering whether it needs 8 to be mentioned. 9 MR. WHITWELL: John, I guess I'd ask you for 10 input on that because the reason that that was even in 11 there is, I think, the first day we met and this was 12 brought up, capacity range was one of the things that 13 people asked about for this equipment. Now, if we're 14 comfortable in deleting that, I'd be fine either way. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: I guess from my point of view, I 16 mean, 240 sounds really big for something that's space 17 constrained. I mean, are they realistically going to 18 make something bigger than that? 19 MR. deLASKI: And from my point of view -- just 20 to add to that -- I mean, again, the basic concept here 21 is what I thought I heard John say here earlier is that 22 it's a tiny part of the market today. As long as it 23 stays tiny, continues to serve the needs that it exists 24 for, then fine. 25 The thing that I'm concerned about -- the thing

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 1 that I would be concerned about is if it becomes a -- a 2 loophole, that the product becomes suddenly used in 3 applications, in unattended consequences that this is now 4 being put in a roof and someone bolts it, you know, 5 things that we don't expect to happen, happen. Things 6 that we don't predict. So the more that we can constrain 7 it to what it is today, the more comfortable I am with 8 exempting that. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's exactly my point. So 10 that's why, I think, looking at what exists today and 11 just kind of freezing it and say, "You're good today. We 12 acknowledge that. You're serving a need in the market. 13 A niche market that has these issues where they can only 14 put this thing in drop ceilings. And we're going to 15 preserve that, but don't cross these other thresholds 16 that we're concerned about." 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I'm hoping that the 18 weatherized takes care of that because, I mean, we have 19 rooftop units that are under 35 inches in height; right? 20 But again, they're less than 65,000 BTUs per hour as 21 well, so -- 22 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Ted, did you remind us 23 what's above that? (Inaudible.) All right. So then -- 24 yeah, go back down so we can see all the bullets. 25 As a -- I'm hearing that some folks need to run

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 1 it past legal and there was one other question, but as a 2 temperature vote, let me see a show of thumbs if you all 3 think this works. And this is not a binding vote. 4 MR. deLASKI: I'm actually not prepared to say. 5 I'd prefer, as I said, to run it by our legal counsel, 6 who's not here. So -- but I think it's in the right 7 direction, but -- 8 MR. RAMIREZ: We would run it again as a formal 9 vote once folks get a chance to do that. I guess what I 10 was looking at is: Are there any other changes that you 11 can see? 12 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, is there anything else that 13 we need to do to modify this right now for evaluation 14 between now and next week; right? 15 MR. deLASKI: Question that Alex just raised to 16 me on the side here is, you know, just again, playing 17 devil's advocate here, can folks who make these products 18 or in this market tell us what would prevent someone 19 from -- again, thinking about this loophole -- potential 20 for a loophole here. What prevents someone from putting 21 this in a mechanical room or using it as the air 22 conditioner instead of the air conditioner that you all 23 sell today? I suppose to -- 24 MS. HOOTMAN: As far as a replacement system, if 25 you already have -- Jill Hootman from Trane. If you

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 1 already have duct work up on a roof, and now you're going 2 to try to put in a mechanical room -- 3 MR. deLASKI: For a retrofit to replace it, 4 right. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: -- you're going to have to rip 6 your duct work out. Your duct work's not there for a 7 whole new transition. 8 MR. deLASKI: This is a whole new system, right, 9 why would you do that? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: So it's a whole new system. So I 11 don't know that you would have much switching that would 12 happen from a rooftop system to this. You would have 13 replacement of these like-for-like. And I think what 14 they're trying to say is that in the future because of 15 that space constrainess, you're just not going to be able 16 to get that much more efficiency out of these things. 17 MR. deLASKI: We get that. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, right, but I mean -- 19 MR. deLASKI: We totally get that, yes. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: -- that would mean a major 21 rip-out. 22 MR. deLASKI: So that's going to -- so what's 23 going to prevent someone is cost? 24 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 25 MR. deLASKI: Right. Okay.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And Jill, I'd like 2 to pick up on that like-for-like and replacement that 3 it's -- right now it would be hard selling me to remove 4 that 240,000 BTU upper limit. I realize that in 5 practice, getting even bigger than that would be -- be a 6 challenge with that 35 inches or whatever it is. But 7 belt and suspenders, it would feel more comfortable to 8 keep the BTU limit in there. 9 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah with Emerson. Can you 10 please e-mail me this document? I want to run it by my 11 counterpart at Liebert. Yeah, I can run it by them this 12 morning if you want to get some input. 13 MR. STARR: So I just -- would a heighth 14 requirement help keep this from getting to big? I mean, 15 it's meant to fit through a door; right? So we know the 16 width of a door is 36 inches. The heighth of a door is 17 only so high, right, six eight. So if you had a limiting 18 heighth, that would kind of prevent some of the people -- 19 FEMALE SPEAKER: Is that number 3? 20 MR. STARR: No, number -- it would be part of 21 number 3. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Number 3 is for the horizontal 23 configuration; while number 4 is for the vertical. I 24 think what Louis is talking about is a height limitation. 25 So actually, it's constraining two of the three

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 1 dimensions. So Louis, I don't know. I mean, it could be 2 over-constrained. I mean, the height -- the height is -- 3 the height is important to get it through a door, but it 4 could be two pieces. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be two pieces. And then 6 mechanical room could be taller than the door. 7 MR. WHITWELL: And typically, I think we're 8 limiting capacity -- we're limiting capacity, so -- 9 MR. STARR: I was just doing a quick 10 calculation. This is more of a manufacturer thing, but I 11 was just thinking, if you had your tonnage -- your 12 capacity, you can usually go with your velocity across 13 your quill and back out the size of that and sort of -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: But remember, I mean, these -- 15 because of the space constraint, these are sometimes -- 16 I've been told that the coils, at least from one 17 manufacturer, they can be up to 8 rows; right? So 18 they're making up for lack of face area with depth. 19 MR. STARR: So they're running at a pretty high 20 velocity in order to get it through there; right? 21 MR. WHITWELL: They're running against a high 22 internal static pressure -- 23 MR. STARR: Oh. 24 MR. WHITWELL: -- in order to get -- 25 MR. SACHS: Bob, this is -- this is Harvey. And

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 1 just another question to clarify my own thinking. When I 2 visualize a rooftop unit, I visualize it with condenser 3 fans that are propeller type. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Typically, yes. Every one that 5 I'm familiar with is, yes. 6 MR. SACHS: And one of the key things you said 7 was early on, just in passing, was that these are 8 typically equipped with centrifugal fans to develop the 9 ESP. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, I can't say for sure that 11 every one is. But the ones that we have, they're forward 12 curved centrifugal, belt and pulley, adjustable belt and 13 pulley. So you can adjust the static pressure, you know, 14 for various static -- external statics. 15 MR. SACHS: I would certainly object to adding 16 the prescriptive requirement, but I think that's 17 something that helps me understand that this really is a 18 quite different product from an RTU. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, and that's what we're 20 trying to get at with the external static requirement. I 21 mean, the rooftop doesn't have the external static 22 requirement on the outdoor air flow. I won't use the 23 word "condenser," because it could be a heat pump. Okay? 24 MR. RAMIREZ: So are we good enough, then, here 25 for --

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then the next one, 3 was there -- was there another piece, Detlef, that you 4 wanted to go through? 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: So before you close that out, 6 Ted, why don't you just make all the letters the same -- 7 just accept all those edits. They don't need to be 8 distinguished. And then send that around and -- 9 MALE SPEAKER: That same presentation has the 10 other topic, which was the IEER differential for gas 11 furnace units. 12 MR. SACHS: Thank you, Bob and Detlef. 13 MR. WESTPHALEN: So last night and this morning, 14 Jim del Toro of Carrier worked on seven-and-a-half and 15 15-ton units with doing some calculations based on 16 assumptions regarding the additional fan power that would 17 be used in gas furnace units, as opposed to electric heat 18 or no heat units. 19 And he presented something that -- I mean, I 20 guess I did my own work which I'm presenting. I don't 21 know if -- yeah, we can try to find out if Jim has 22 additional material to present that looks at it a little 23 bit differently; I think he's going to be doing some 24 additional calculations. 25 But what I'm presenting here, why don't I start

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 1 with the seven-and-a-half. What I did was, I went back 2 to the units that we modeled for the engineering 3 analysis, and I used a .3 inches water column pressure 4 associated with the furnace heat exchanger, and that was 5 based on some information that Jim had sent. And 6 obviously that's up to debate and we can rerun numbers 7 for the ranges that might be typical do some sensitivity 8 analysis. 9 But we used .3 for both seven-and-a-half and 10 30-ton. And this chart here shows the factor 11 representing increase in the indoor fan power associated 12 with that .3. This is going back to basically based on 13 the fan performance tables for these units that we used 14 in our engineering calculations. So you can see there's 15 quite a range of factors on the fan power. And there's 16 more dots here for the VAV because they're operating at 17 different points. So the factors are a little bit 18 different for the point you're operating at because these 19 are always operating at just one point. 20 So this is what happens to the indoor fan 21 wattage. And then when you work that through, this is 22 the differential, the reduction in the IEER that we 23 calculate for that additional fan power. 24 MR. SACHS: Can you read the caption on the left 25 side, please?

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 1 MR. WESTPHALEN: That says "IEER differential," 2 parenthesis, "gas heat versus electric or no heat." 3 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. The reference 4 for me is DOE 90.1 says .2; correct? 5 MR. WESTPHALEN: That's correct. I was just 6 going to remind everybody that -- 7 MR. HUNT: Oh, just kidding. 8 MR. WESTPHALEN: And I don't know how that was 9 developed. So this is for the seven-and-a-half ton. I 10 didn't have time to go through it for the 15-ton. And 11 that's for the 30-ton. 12 Now, for the 30-ton, you can see the trend that 13 you might expect for the VAV units to have less of a 14 differential. It's much stronger here for the 30-ton 15 than it was for the seven-and-a-half. Remember that the 16 seven-and-a-half, it's not really VAV, it's staged air 17 volume at two-thirds air flow at the low stage. 18 So this is for informational purposes. It's 19 possible that, you know, there may be requests for 20 additional calculations or other additional calculations 21 behind the scenes, so to speak, but just wanted to put it 22 out there. So I don't know if anybody has any additional 23 questions on this. 24 MR. WHITWELL: Detlef, this is Bob Whitwell. So 25 I think there's a little bit more work to do here, right,

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 1 in order to complete the analysis? Or are we saying -- 2 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, we could certainly 3 collect more data. We could certainly -- you know, these 4 are the units we use for the engineering analysis right? 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yep, right. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: So it's only like seven, eight 7 per class. 8 MR. WHITWELL: So one thing, I mean, if we look 9 at this, there is not -- I mean, one thing if especially 10 on the seven-and-a-half, it didn't look like there's a 11 lot of sensitivity to the IEER. But definitely there 12 is -- it's -- the -- looks like it's higher. I mean, if 13 you take a trend line through there, it's going to be 14 higher. A little bit sensitive to IEER, but definitely 15 higher than the .2; right? 16 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I'll add 17 in that, you know, we're looking at seven-and-a-half, 15, 18 and 30-ton, which is sort of the mid-range of each of the 19 small, large, and very large. 20 And when you get to the larger capacities and a 21 certain box size that the manufacturer uses, that's where 22 we tend to see that you have a higher -- more difficulty 23 getting there. And as I mentioned yesterday, our biggest 24 unit and our biggest box is now at a 1.0 IEER Delta. 25 MR. WHITWELL: Right, right.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 1 MR. THARP: Actually, it's 1.2. 2 MR. WHITWELL: More air flow, so higher velocity 3 over the heat exchange. 4 MR. THARP: Right. So while this is 5 representative of the seven-and-a-half, 15, and 30, we 6 also need to be mindful that there's other capacity sizes 7 in those ranges, and it's the larger sizes in the smaller 8 box that you're going to have a problem with getting 9 there. 10 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. I guess I 11 would just -- that's a data point which is really 12 helpful. Surely the data up here doesn't show a very 13 strong relationship. And I understand that maybe it's 14 not sufficient is what you're -- what you're saying, this 15 isn't sufficient to tell the story. 16 MR. THARP: Correct, yeah so -- 17 MR. deLASKI: Right. 18 MR. THARP: You know, manufacturers have lived 19 with a .2 for a long time and, you know, if you look at 20 this particular data on the seven-and-a-half, I think 21 that would almost justify the .3 that was suggested. If 22 you're looking only at this value, you know, there's a 23 couple below .3, but it looks like everything else is 24 above .3. 25 But to -- you know, so personally I would be

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 1 comfortable going with a .3. But if we want to, you 2 know, do something other than that, I think we need to 3 dig out and add -- 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: And in response to your 5 question, you know, if we had been more careful about 6 exactly what the pressure drop would have been for each 7 of the units, we used a .3-inches water column across the 8 board because we don't know what the pressure drops 9 really are. 10 And so you know, the data that Jim had forwarded 11 to me showed an increasing trend with capacity within 12 each size more or less, you know, what Rusty was saying. 13 So you know, more data will obviously shed more light, 14 but it's up to the group whether we want to pursue that. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Is everyone good, 16 then? 17 MR. SACHS: Javier, this is Harvey. And I'm not 18 getting the sense that we have a clear path forward in 19 terms of reaching a decision. 20 MR. RAMIREZ: What do we need, then? What 21 clarifications do we need? 22 MR. SACHS: Well, I -- let me just start that -- 23 this is Harvey. That I don't hear from Detlef a strong 24 recommendation that we need to do more analysis or that 25 we should accept a .3 or that .2 is good enough. So

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 1 that's as least three optional paths and certainly Rusty 2 has weighed in as well. 3 MR. deLASKI: I mean, it seems to me that we 4 need -- well, just one thought here is that 5 manufacturers, I think, have a proposal to share with us 6 later today. Maybe you address this in your proposal, 7 maybe you don't. 8 So Jill's grinning. She just grins a lot. 9 She's happy. 10 So it is open to negotiation, right, so one 11 could make a proposal and then, you know -- but I think 12 we need to come back to it by the end of today. So if 13 there's additional analysis that we need that we ask the 14 consulting team that they do that, they'll be able to get 15 that back to us next week with that analysis. Just so we 16 don't leave it as an open item if we need some additional 17 analysis on it. I mean, there are the values, the 18 differentials that are in existing 90.1, the 19 gravitational pull to those, I think. And if they need 20 to be different than those, I'd be looking for some data 21 in justification. 22 MR. RAMIREZ: So then it sounds like next steps 23 then would be to view the industry proposal and then see 24 where we go from there? 25 MR. HUNT: One quick thing, this is Marshall

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 1 Hunt, PG&E. I'm always concerned about the impact on 2 peak. So this is IEER, and it's always a jumble to 3 figure out exactly what the EER impacts would be just 4 from the IEER. So any information you would have that 5 would shed light on what happens to EER, I would 6 appreciate. 7 MR. WESTPHALEN: Yeah, good point. We didn't 8 prepare that, but that's in the spreadsheets that I took 9 this from, so -- 10 MS. MEYERS: Javier, this is Karen Meyers with 11 Rheem. If I could ask a favor of the working group. 12 Four of us have to step out for a call at 10:00 from the 13 industry side. So if it would be possible to perhaps 14 delay the industry proposal presentation for 15 approximately a half-hour. 16 MR. RAMIREZ: So then break now and come back at 17 10:30? 18 MS. MEYERS: That would be great if that works 19 for the rest of the group. 20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then, let's go 21 ahead and do that. And then we'll start off at 10:30 22 with the industry proposal. Thank you, everyone. 23 (Recess taken.) 24 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let's go ahead and get 25 started back up, and we've been requested that the sound

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 1 in this room is different than the one upstairs. And if 2 you can, make sure that your mic is on when you're 3 talking, and don't get too close to the mic. Okay? 4 Yeah, so with that, who wants to lead off 5 running us through the industry's presentation here or 6 proposal? 7 MR. HURST: Yeah, I've had two cups of coffee 8 and enough cough syrup to knock a cow unconscious, so 9 they nominated me to be the spokes model. 10 Am I presenting anything or just reading? Okay. 11 Are we presenting anything? 12 MR. THARP: It's right there. 13 MR. HURST: All right. Well, game on. Sure. 14 Okay. 15 Thank you, this is John Hurst with Lennox. I 16 want to go through kind of our rationale on our proposal. 17 Then I'll hand it over to probably Rusty, Bob, and Jill 18 to go through the details of it. 19 But I think it's important that we go back and 20 maybe set this up and talk about the NOPR back in 21 September of '14. And I wanted to read just a paragraph 22 and then provide some commentary. 23 It says, "DOE concludes that as TSL-4 for small, 24 large, and very large air-cooled commercial packaged air 25 conditioning and heating equipment, the benefits of

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 1 energy savings, positive MPV of total customer benefits, 2 customer life cycle savings, emission reductions, and the 3 estimated monetary value of the emissions reductions 4 would have outweighed -- would be outweighed by the large 5 reduction in industry value at TSL-4. Consequently, DOE 6 has concluded that TSL-4 is not economically justified." 7 And I certainly understand that a lot of the 8 numbers have changed. We've kind of beat up the 9 assumptions. Some of them are very subjective, some of 10 them may seem a little arbitrary, and that's not a knock 11 on the folks from LBNL or Navigant or anybody else that's 12 provided data or input. But this is difficult, it's 13 difficult to model the future. If we could do it easily, 14 I think we'd all be in different jobs making a heck of a 15 lot of money in the markets. 16 And so it's a difficult task, and its -- its 17 been a comprehensive effort, but the fact of the matter 18 is, we still can't predict what's going to happen 19 tomorrow. That said, it's hard at some of the other TSL 20 levels to look at a negative industry net present value 21 because really what we're talking about is destroying 22 value for our shareowners. And our shareowners aren't 23 just 1-percenters, they're teachers and factory workers 24 and folks that invest in our companies. They're average 25 people.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 1 And in addition, we look at the analysis and we 2 look at numbers and we look at jobs impacted. And even 3 though it's a number on a spreadsheet, these are real 4 people with real jobs. And some of these jobs go away, 5 and we had a robust discussion yesterday that we thought 6 that the numbers were maybe light -- significantly light. 7 But the other thing is, there's kind of a notion that, 8 well, maybe we understate these things. 9 But you know, one of the questions we didn't ask 10 is the number of manufacturers that have moved production 11 either offshore or South of the Border. And I'm not 12 going to ask for a count of fingers or hands, but I'll 13 speak for my company. We've -- we've done that, and it's 14 not a -- it's not a task we relish or enjoy. 15 So as we think about this, as we look at these 16 numbers, I want everybody to understand that we're 17 talking about real people, real dollars, and real 18 impacts. 19 So with that, the rationale for the proposal 20 that we're going to review are -- the analysis is based 21 on many unsubstantiated assumptions. And again, that's 22 not a knock on anybody, it's just difficult to predict 23 the future. There were a number of work-arounds due to 24 the blast model. I won't beat that up anymore. We've 25 had a very healthy discussion and, you know, you use the

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 1 best information that you have. 2 There's a number of unknown impacts on ASHRAE 3 90.1, and we've had a healthy discussion around that item 4 as well. And then yesterday -- yesterday and previously, 5 we talked about ventilation energy not being included in 6 the test procedure, but being counted as part of the 7 benefit -- large portion of the benefit. 8 The proposal that you're going to see, whether 9 you like it or not, it has energy savings that are 10 realized earlier than the NOPR for new construction, 11 replacement, and existing. And the initial savings could 12 be between six and over twelve quads. It's a two-step 13 proposal, which allows a single development cycle, 14 considering the impact of low GWP refrigerants being 15 produced in the relatively near future. 16 And then finally, as I stated in my -- earlier 17 in my statement, it's less harmful. When I say "less 18 harmful," it's still harmful, let's be honest. There's a 19 harmful impact on American jobs and the industry MPB, 20 which again is really asking industry to pick what level 21 of value destruction do you want to pick for your 22 corporation and for your shareowners. 23 So with that, I don't know if I'm handing it to 24 Rusty, Jill, or Bob to do the next slide to review the 25 actual pieces.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Go ahead. 2 MR. HURST: I could still hold it; we're good. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: So Jill Hootman, Trane. What 4 you're seeing on here is the first step, which was an 5 accelerated approach to getting 100 percent adoption of 6 the ASHRAE level EL-1 with an effective date earlier 7 than, you know, what 100 percent adoption of ASHRAE would 8 have been. 9 We all know that it's a patchwork of states that 10 adopt and that adoption takes a while and we all know 11 that it is never 100 percent for all buildings. This 12 would be all buildings, new construction, replacement, 13 and renovation as well. It has, as you can see, 14 in-effectivity dates are broken up by the sizes, the 15 product classes that we've talked about, and acceleration 16 for the small size versus the large and the very large. 17 It does -- it does not change the gas furnaces. 18 In this one, the second step when we get to that you'll 19 see the change in the gas furnaces. 20 MR. deLASKI: Jill, let me just bother you. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure. 22 MR. deLASKI: We're going to have a -- this will 23 be distributed I assume, since this is on the record 24 here. So I'm just trying not to steal my pencil because 25 I write everything down.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 1 So to summarize, it looks likes it's EL -- I'm 2 not trying to -- it's EL-1 across the board for the small 3 is January 2018, and for the large and very large, it's 4 January 2019. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Correct. 6 MR. deLASKI: Thanks. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: So anything else before we go to 8 the -- all right. You want to click the next one? 9 So then the second step, considering as we said 10 before, the impact of going for one development including 11 low GWP refrigerants, and when we think that timing might 12 happen -- we are guessing at that -- but knowing the 13 different steps that are in process right now, we're 14 going to be soon to be in process for those. We expect 15 that timing to be around 2024, so that's kind of why we 16 pegged it at that effectivity date to include that 17 development so that, again, because of the cumulative 18 regulatory burden, we want to design this once, not three 19 times in that same time frame. 20 So what we have here is, again, the various 21 different product classes. In this case, EL-2.5 for the 22 small and large, and then EL-2 for the very large, all on 23 effectivity date of 2024. 24 Cooling with gas, just as we had the earlier 25 discussion this morning, you know, showing that the gas

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 1 has the .3 D-duct as you'll note with our footnote, you 2 know, I think there's still some discussion around -- is 3 that .3 D-duct or is it more or is it less? But, you 4 know, probably have to do some more data analysis around 5 that considering that we would take that information back 6 that Jim at Carrier and some others said that they can do 7 that analysis. 8 And then on the heat pumps, you see the D-duct 9 that we're proposing for -- from the AC level, and then 10 no change in COP. And then the gas furnaces going to 11 81 percent, effective 2024. What I'd like to state about 12 gas furnace redesign is, gas furnace redesign is a very 13 long time because of the cycles that you have to do to 14 essentially test out your reliability of your gas 15 furnace. 16 It really is, a lot of times, a lot longer than 17 three years, even though the regulatory sometimes is only 18 looking at a three years. So in order to get all those 19 gas furnaces redesigned in time, we'd like to make it 20 coincide with the 2024 date. Anything to add? 21 MR. HURST: I think that's it. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 23 MR. BANTLE: Any -- any quick clarification 24 questions? Louis? 25 MR. STARR: I have a question. How does these

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 1 levels -- how would this work with the 90.1 process or 2 have you thought about that potentially? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: So we've thought about that. We 4 don't necessarily have a wonderful answer there. We'll 5 have to -- industry before has certainly gone to ASHRAE 6 and, you know, had them change their levels. So what -- 7 we're going to have to probably do that, you know, but, 8 you know. 9 I would say that ASHRAE also had the opportunity 10 to be at this table, and they necessarily haven't. They 11 certainly could have submitted, just like any of us, and 12 been -- been here. So it's something that we're going to 13 have to work through with ASHRAE to figure that out. 14 Don't know that I have an answer. 15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. First of 16 all, the first step is ASHRAE 90.1, so we're not changing 17 anything as far as ASHRAE is the same as ASHRAE. 18 As far as the second step, then, yes we'll go 19 back to ASHRAE with a proposal to be in line whatever we 20 do here. ASHRAE is going to be willing to accept that, 21 as well. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, and -- Bob Whitwell. So I 23 think -- so the ASHRAE 90.1 levels could come in -- could 24 be effective sooner than that, too because typically what 25 happens -- or I think, if I understand the process

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 1 correctly, DOE would -- could adopt the ASHRAE -- 2 typically, if ASHRAE 90.1 changes their levels, DOE 3 evaluates that, and then if they choose to adopt it, it's 4 effective for DOE as a national standard either two or 5 three years after AHRI -- or ASHRAE adopts it, depending 6 on the size of the equipment, the equipment class. 7 MR. AMRANE: That's correct. We usually -- we 8 can put an effective date on the ASHRAE proposal, but to 9 be consistent with whatever date we agreed to here, we 10 have to take that into account, yes. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Over the floor. 12 MR. AMRANE: Over the floor, yes. 13 FEMALE SPEAKER: Would you please identify 14 yourself? 15 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane I'm with AHRI. 16 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And first, thank 17 you for bringing this forward and for all the work that 18 has gone into it. I think we will have to do some 19 caucusing, and I'd very much appreciate it if it would be 20 possible to arrange for copies of these to be distributed 21 so we can talk. So that's sort of a process comment. 22 MR. BANTLE: And is it okay if I e-mail this 23 out? Okay. I'll e-mail it to the group right now. 24 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 25 FEMALE SPEAKER: Are there --

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 1 MR. SACHS: I wasn't done. Growl. 2 MR. deLASKI: Before Harvey, just -- I want to 3 make sure. Is that -- are you done? Is industry done? 4 Because maybe you or Rusty said we want to make sure 5 we've got the whole thing on the table. 6 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey continuing. The 7 other question that was on my mind is that ASHRAE 90.1 8 has incorporated a significance suite of requirements 9 that are outside the scope of the DOE proceeding relative 10 to controls and economizers and wherefores and wherevers 11 and all that sort of stuff. And I think it's important 12 to many of us to have industry's continued commitment to 13 these features that are now locked down in 90.1 as we go 14 forward with this. The national account on energy 15 savings certainly has to include these as ASHRAE 16 calculates them. End of rant. 17 MR. HUNT: And this is Marshall Hunt of PG&E 18 California Utilities. So in line with that, to make sure 19 we don't have a diminishment of the EER requirements, 20 which you all know how concerned we are, I would like to 21 request that we include the ASHRAE EER with both -- 22 either step 1 or step 2, but not change it from the 23 existing 90.1. 24 MR. deLASKI: I suggest before we go too much 25 further that our group probably needs to caucus.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 1 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, yeah. Is it -- 2 MR. deLASKI: No, I was -- 3 MR. AMRANE: Is that the official position from 4 you? 5 MR. deLASKI: When we come back -- a piece meal, 6 one idea at a time. I would -- so I guess if we have any 7 other clarifying questions from our caucus, I would -- 8 but I -- let's just ask questions and then we'll come 9 back with any reactions. 10 MR. STARR: Just one other thing. So as you 11 know, 90.1's working on their 2016, which means they'll 12 most likely come out with some new values, which then 13 also means DOE would review those. So, I don't know. In 14 terms -- I think part of the DO -- or the 90.1 process 15 might need to be engaged sooner rather than later based 16 on these negotiations. 17 MR. HILLBRAND: This is Alex with NRDC. Can 18 somebody expound a bit upon the low GWP of 2024, why you 19 chose that date and specifically if informing your 20 levels? 21 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. The 22 primary reason is because the safety standards and 23 building code are not complete, as far as addressing A to 24 L. 25 Presently, the safety standards, UL1995,

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 1 UL60335-2-40 specifically ban any flammable refrigerant 2 from comfort air conditioning products. So as of now, we 3 can't use A2Ls really if we wanted to. And the safety 4 requirements are in the process of being developed. I 5 personally am participating in UL standard's development, 6 IEC standard's development. 7 As it appears now, the most aggressive schedule, 8 I think that I've heard discussed would be at the 9 international safety standard -- just as a precursor, 10 what has been sort of mandated is that international 11 safety standards will be developed, and then North 12 American safety standards will be modified off of the 13 international safety standards. 14 So the international safety standards, at best, 15 will be finalized in late 2016, probably 2017 time frame. 16 So that means some time in 2016 that the North American 17 safety standards can start this development process of 18 modifying of the North American modifications. So given 19 the normal time frame, we're probably talking 2018, 2019. 20 Before the UL -- the product safety standards are done. 21 ASHRAE '15 is in the process of evaluating the 22 safety standards for A2Ls at the Chicago meeting. It was 23 agreed that they would put forth an advisory public 24 review for A2Ls for machine room applications, but 25 they're still evaluating the requirements for non-machine

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 1 room applications. 2 And the way it looks now is, at an advisory 3 public review, at best will be coming out early in 2016. 4 Which means by the time you get back the comments and 5 then you address those comments, and then you go out with 6 the publication public review, and then address all those 7 comments, we're looking at 2018, 2019 at best before we 8 really know what the requirements are. And it won't 9 be -- at best, it will be the 2021 model building codes: 10 IMC, IRC, where it's put into final form. 11 And then still, years after that before other 12 states adopt it. So we're looking at 2019 to 2021 before 13 we know what the final requirements are. So I'd say -- 14 personally, I was pushing the industry to try to go with 15 2025 just because of the time frame. And I spent 16 two-and-a-half decades in product design development: I 17 know what it takes to get the product design, what's 18 reliable and all these safety issues. 19 But we came -- I -- I was unsuccessful in 20 getting 2025 as the first rollout date. So hopefully -- 21 that's a long explanation, but hopefully that gives you 22 something. 23 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I'd just 24 like to add onto that. Until the states adopt it, we 25 can't even field test a unit. So a lot of -- a huge part

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 1 of the product development cycle, especially when you're 2 designing something that will be completely new from the 3 ground up with a new refrigerant, you know, you put these 4 units out on field tests and we can't even do that until 5 we have the states adopt it and that will allow us to 6 actually install it and not be in violation of the 7 building code. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 9 Another thing that's going to happen is all the labs are 10 going to have to be reconfigured to be handling all the 11 refrigerant, so that's a significant, significant change 12 in the industry. 13 MR. THARP: And then one more thing I didn't 14 throw out is, it has to go through the EPA snap approval 15 process. So in reality, EPA won't start processing the 16 snap application until there's a safety standard. So for 17 the UL44, the PTAK-type product, that was not started 18 basically until -- and this is my understanding, I'm not 19 as deeply involved in EPA snap application, but my 20 understanding is they won't pursue the approval for A2Ls 21 in this type of product until there is a product safety 22 standard complete. 23 Because they have to reference a completed 24 safety standards, which means the EPA snap approval 25 process won't start until 2018, 2019 at best.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 1 MR. deLASKI: A little bit more with the -- so 2 at some -- as this process, then there's the other side 3 of this equation, which is at some point you're 4 prohibited from using the refrigerants you're using 5 today; right? 6 MR. THARP: Correct, correct. And, you know, 7 I -- you know, California has just released their SLCP, 8 the California Air Resources Board just released their 9 short-lived climate pollutants plan. 10 There's -- It's not been announced any dates 11 along with those, but you're right. So we're looking at 12 some point in time that there will be a ban on 13 refrigerants. I personally don't think that what 14 Environment Canada proposed as far as 1/1/23 date will go 15 through just because of where we're at from a safety 16 standards perspective, but I think they're -- my personal 17 opinion is that not too long after that, you know, it 18 would be a few years, but -- 19 MR. deLASKI: But if -- so just pick the 20 Canadian Day because it's been -- what is it? A 21 proposal? I don't know. 22 MR. THARP: Yeah, it's a proposal. Karim knows 23 more than I do. 24 MR. deLASKI: So if that date were to stand, and 25 I'm just sort of thinking about how that impacts you as

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 1 an industry in Canada, if that date were to stand, then 2 you would want to do any redesign -- a major redesign to 3 comply with -- with efficiency standards concurrent with 4 that redesign. 5 So say that the standard was in effect, say it 6 was 2025 to pick your date that you preferred in your 7 private discussions, you might actually roll your 8 efficiency work earlier in time because you don't want to 9 do it twice. Back to the "I don't want to do it twice" 10 argument. 11 MR. THARP: Correct. So if Canada said 1/1/2025 12 as the deadline for GWPs greater than 150 or they said 13 1/1/2023 and we 2025, then you're correct. We would most 14 likely redesign once and go ahead and roll those out 15 earlier. 16 MR. deLASKI: So what I'm hearing sort of 17 consistent from you guys throughout this discussion is 18 how do we -- how do we sync up these two processes so 19 that we're not doing one and then the other. 20 MR. THARP: And in reality, I think the -- you 21 know, it -- if DOE could -- I don't know if DOE could, 22 but if it could be tied to some time period after snap 23 approval, to me, that would really be the best. You 24 know, say, you know, five years, four years, something 25 after the EPA snap approval or 2025 at the latest or

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 1 something along that would be a potential alternate. 2 MR. deLASKI: Okay. That helps me to understand 3 sort of what's driving your date, why you picked that 4 date. 5 MR. THARP: Yes, sir. 6 MR. deLASKI: But you picked the date with the 7 thought that that gives you -- that will give you enough 8 flexibility to sync them up. 9 MR. THARP: Right. To completely redesign all 10 of our products that we have today so that with that, you 11 know, being mindful of that, 100 percent of the products 12 we offer would have to be redesigned. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell, Carrier. So 14 that -- that includes those that are currently covered by 15 DOE efficiency standard, plus others that are not; right? 16 Greater than 760,000 -- 17 MR. THARP: And then at the same time, as Karen 18 just pointed out to me that, you know, we're the 19 residential products. And so our test rooms will be 20 completely inundated whenever that refrigerant change 21 happens. As well as our engineer resources. 22 MR. BANTLE: Are there other clarifying -- 23 MS. HOOTMAN: So a little -- Jill from Trane. 24 So very similar to where we were at in 2004 and 2005 when 25 we went for the change in standards in 2010. You know,

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 1 that was like a five-year gap and we knew that we were 2 phasing out then, didn't have all these safety issues as 3 well, but we have that same issue of -- and I think at 4 that time we also said, you know, it was test rooms, test 5 labs, you know. 6 How do you get this all through for this huge 7 industry? It takes -- it takes longer than three years 8 obviously, it takes probably more around the magnitude of 9 five. And that was about five years because that was 10 finalized in 2005 and we were effective 2010 11 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah of Emerson. I just 12 want to add that all of the components making up the unit 13 will eventually have to be redesigned. Compressors, you 14 know, one of them. I mean, we have to redesign all of 15 our manufacturing processes for that new refrigerant. So 16 it takes a lot of time, effort, spendings, name it. So 17 just keep that in mind. 18 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other comments or questions on 19 this? 20 MR. deLASKI: Just one question, I can check 21 this myself, but the values the D-ducts that you chose 22 for the heat pumps, were those right out of ASHRAE, the 23 most recent ASHRAE? 24 MR. THARP: That's the current Delta, basically. 25 It's ASHRAE and out of the NOPR.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 1 MR. deLASKI: Which one is out of the NOPR? The 2 NOPR did come out of the ASHRAE, if any. And the .3 is 3 what we discussed this morning -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, exactly. 5 MR. deLASKI: -- for our process. It was in the 6 proposal, see? 7 MS. HOOTMAN: But, what he showed up there was 8 very interesting to me because it actually showed 9 activity -- 10 MR. deLASKI: So you added to footnote after his 11 presentation. (Simultaneous speaking.) 12 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Then how much time do 13 you think you need in order to discuss this and come back 14 so we can start just discussing it as a group? 15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and one possibility 16 might be to -- since we're planning to break up by 3:00 17 anyhow, adjourn for lunch plus caucusing. 18 MR. RAMIREZ: Sure. 19 MR. SACHS: And recover by, say, 12:30. Would 20 that work for you? 21 MR. RAMIREZ: Everyone good with 12:30? 22 MR. deLASKI: That works. I think that's a good 23 idea. 24 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. One thing I would ask 25 the group to do is that while you're looking at this,

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 1 identify what I like to call "low-hanging fruit," right, 2 and see if we can start our conversation when we come 3 back there. If there are any areas of agreement, let's 4 do those. Or if there any areas where you think we're 5 close to agreement, start with that, and then we'll roll 6 into some of the other areas that might need discussion. 7 See you all at 12:30. 8 MR. deLASKI: I'm sorry, Louis wants to ask 9 another question, and I think it's a -- 10 MR. STARR: I was just wanted maybe more of a 11 clarification. On the 2.5 level that you came up with, 12 I'm thinking the basis of that was pretty much based upon 13 manufacturers impact. Is that why you chose that level? 14 Or what -- help me understand, you know, there's 2, 15 there's 3, there's -- you know, lots of levels. And you 16 chose one of the levels, but I think that's what the 17 answer is but I wanted to make sure. 18 MR. THARP: I'll say -- this is Rusty Tharp with 19 Goodman -- I'll say for me and my company, it's the -- we 20 think it's a relatively good balance between the energy 21 savings, the cost of the product, the reduced volumes 22 that we will have as a manufacturer, and the impact on 23 the company. Because the INPV, even at that level, is 24 significantly negative. And again, with -- if you look 25 at several of the other rule makings that effect my

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 1 company is like almost all of them -- well, all of them 2 do have a negative INPV. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, and I would just add to 4 exactly what Rusty said and probably the other thing as 5 well is that at 2.5 and 2, you're still getting energy -- 6 national energy savings that is relatively the same level 7 as the NOPR originally had. So it's now at like 12 8 quads, you were 11 quads before. So it's still around 9 the same energy level. 10 (Lunch recess was taken.) 11 MR. BANTLE: Okay. We're a couple minutes 12 early, but it looks like we do have everyone in the room. 13 Any objections to getting started? 14 Do we have everybody on the webinar? Probably 15 the same group as last time. 16 MR. RAMIREZ: On the webinar, there's Adam 17 Darlington, Chris Carr, Diane Jacobs, Jim del Toro, Long 18 Huang, Mark Terzigni, Michael Shows, Mike Ray, Racquel 19 Nieto, Sam McClive, Steven Maddox, Victor Merinick, Xing 20 Xu. 21 MR. BANTLE: Okay. I think we will turn it over 22 to the group on my left for a counter. Thank you. 23 MR. deLASKI: Okay. Well, thank you all for 24 your proposal, we really appreciate going forward with a 25 concrete, specific proposal today in order to advance the

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 1 conversation. I think also want to, you know, thank 2 Detlef for launching this and enabling us to come into a 3 conversation about rooftop units and furnaces even though 4 the proposed rules have been issued for both of these 5 rules. So it's an unusual situation that we're in 6 because we have the proposed rules in the industry. 7 There's a couple of things as we thought about 8 your proposal are very much forward in our mind. One of 9 them is that we have heard loud and clear your desire and 10 the benefits for you as companies to align the effective 11 dates for furnaces and air conditioners. We hear you on 12 that, and our counter-proposal to you, we are trying to 13 address that concern that we've heard highlighted by you 14 numerous times as being really critical to addressing the 15 point that John made in his opening remarks about, yeah, 16 there's huge benefits for the nation in these new 17 standards in terms of energy savings, in terms of 18 economic benefits, but there's a cost to companies to 19 redesign and so we hear you on that. 20 The other point that you've made during these 21 conversations and in and out of these conversations is 22 the desire to -- we're okay with redesigning, but we just 23 want to do it once. Or once every -- once every certain 24 number of years, as opposed to on a continual basis. And 25 that you see the need for a redesign. So you've got the

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 1 efficiency standards coming in and you've got the 2 refrigerant change coming in. 3 And I hear -- we hear you loud and clear that 4 you would very much like to align the change -- the 5 redesign work and the investments needed to need those 6 two requirements and do them at the same time. So in our 7 counter to you, we are working very hard to address that 8 concern. And by addressing these two concerns, we are 9 trying to come up with an approach that, you know, 10 continues to drive enormous national energy savings, 11 doesn't get in the way of advancing -- we're not -- we're 12 not here to negotiate the refrigerant rules; right? 13 That's not what we're here to do, but we don't 14 want to get in the way of that, either. Okay? Of that 15 work. And to do it in a way that minimizes the number of 16 redesigns for manufacturers and to bring down -- and 17 thereby, to bring down the manufacturer impact of these 18 important policies that drive these enormous national 19 public benefits. 20 So those were the two -- two things that really 21 under -- we are really focused on as we caucused, lining 22 the effective dates trying to align with the refrigerant 23 phase-out. 24 DOE's proposed rule is, as John pointed out in 25 his opening remarks, was TSL-3 back in the fall. There's

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 1 been a lot of water over the dam since then. We have a 2 revised analysis, you know, we probably could spend the 3 next couple years talking about further revisions to that 4 analysis, but we're not going to do that. 5 And I think we've all sort of said -- I think 6 we're at a point now where we're talking turkey, so to 7 speak, and we're not going to -- and if we don't come to 8 consensus, then we'll continue to talk about the 9 analysis, right, in ways and different forms. But for 10 this discussion, the analysis shows enormous national 11 energy savings, you know, far and away the most DOE rule 12 making have every created. And they've gotten larger as 13 the analysis has gone on. 14 All the levels they're evaluated are life cycle 15 cost effective, right up through TSL-5. Right, so if all 16 you cared about was, what's the maximum level and this is 17 our basic -- our starting position in any daily rule 18 making is go to the maximum level that's cost effective, 19 right, the maximum level of energy that's cost effective. 20 So that's going in position for us, would be TSL-5. 21 So we would start from -- tell us why not. So 22 you've told us why not and we've heard reasons why not 23 TSL-5, but that's where we would start from a working it 24 down from the top level that's cost effective. When we 25 look at the levels, whether you're -- each of these

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 1 levels delivers very large savings. Right? Any one of 2 them delivers savings that dwarf any other rule makings 3 that we're involved in. The deltas between them, in many 4 cases, dwarf other rule makings that we're involved in. 5 So the differences in levels are quite 6 meaningful in most cases from an energy savings and 7 national benefits perspective. So that's the sort of 8 overall sort of where we start from in this, trying to 9 address your concerns on -- on making dates synchronize 10 and reducing number redesigns, but also keeping our eyes 11 on the large national benefits: Energy savings, dollar 12 savings, environmental benefits that drive from the 13 higher TSLs under DOE's consideration. 14 And we also have in mind, you know, what's -- 15 what would the agency do absent us coming to consensus? 16 So absent us coming to consensus, none of us know -- 17 including John -- know what the agency's going to do, 18 right? Because ultimately that's going to be decided by 19 folks who aren't in this room. And what, you know, 20 the -- the thing that we keep in mind is that likely they 21 would use that 2019 date. 22 Because as we understand it, that's what they 23 feel compelled to use, right. So one of the things that 24 we're trying to do by being here on this table is to 25 address these dates and gather -- and gather more

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 58 1 flexibility for industry by being able to address the 2 date issues. So with that -- with that preamble, let me 3 lay out what our counter-proposal is. 4 The first point we would like to make is the 5 point that Marshall has made repeatedly, which is that we 6 want to see the EER levels remain. So that -- we don't 7 want to see any change in them. We want to see the 8 existing EER levels that are part of U.S. Code of Federal 9 Regulation today remain in place. 10 MALE SPEAKER: Are we going to have any -- 11 MR. deLASKI: No, I didn't have time to put 12 slides together. 13 MALE SPEAKER: Can you speak slowly so we can 14 write this down? 15 MR. deLASKI: I'm a pretty slow speaker, but if 16 I need to slow down, just slow me down. 17 MALE SPEAKER: And in that request, are you 18 asking that, you know, dual metrics but is -- you're 19 asking for the current level and no increase -- 20 MR. deLASKI: Right. We're not proposing a 21 modification to the EER, the current levels that -- so 22 that they not disappear, essentially to prevent any 23 backsliding. 24 We've also, through out these negotiations 25 several times have gotten into sometimes spirited

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 59 1 discussions about the IEER metric and we would like, us 2 as a committee, to commit that we would -- that there 3 would be a revisiting of the IEER metric in time for the 4 next time standards are revised to take into account some 5 of the weaknesses that have been discussed both in this 6 room and outside of it. 7 In particular, you know, we were disconcerted by 8 the -- some of the numbers that we saw that showed energy 9 use going up as IEER went up, and we think that needs to 10 be addressed. 11 So fan energy use is one example, although there 12 are others of an area where the IEER metric needs to be 13 reconsidered. Not for this standard, but for a future 14 standard. 15 MR. SACHS: (Inaudible) reconsiders? 16 MR. deLASKI: Right. It reconsiders. Right, 17 it's the right metric, but in other words how is it 18 modified to address shortcomings. 19 So on levels, we're willing to accept your 20 concept of a two-step approach. And we'll go so far as 21 to -- we can accept your step 1. Part of our rationale 22 in being able and wanting to accept your step 1 is back 23 to this concept of: How many redesigns do we have to do? 24 Right, so my understanding is that by and large, 25 you're either done or doing the redesigns to comply with

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 60 1 ASHRAE -- the levels -- ASHRAE 2013 becoming effective in 2 2016, that work is underway. 3 So we had a -- part of why it took so much time 4 on our side, an active conversation about, "Well, can't 5 we do something better than what is sort of the status 6 quo?" Because in some levels, we sort of see that a lot 7 of the savings from TSL-1 are going to happen because 8 you're designing for that, it's being driven by the 9 ASHRAE process. 10 In some levels, it's baked in. Not all of it, 11 as you guys have pointed out, and as we've pointed out. 12 But there's a gain there, but the fact of the matter is, 13 is we see that the redesign work is baked in for you 14 guys -- for you manufacturers. So asking you to make a 15 modest increase over that would probably provoke the need 16 for redesign, and that rather than look to ask you to 17 make two redesign cycles in each step. 18 In other words, if we did a higher than one in 19 step 1 and then came back with a step 2, that would be 20 saying two -- two redesigns. So we did have a vigorous 21 debate over: Do we ask for a higher step 1 and or a 22 higher step 2, or do we just put everything in the step 23 2? So our attitude is to put everything in the step 2. 24 So for step 2, our proposal is TSL-4 in the year 25 2022. TSL-4 is cost effective across the board. It

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 61 1 yields enormous savings, savings that are considerably 2 larger than any lower TSL. 3 We picked the year 2022 because it's -- there's 4 two aspects of this: One, it's three years later what 5 DOE would do in a normal rule making process. That 6 already causes us a lot of heartburn. So we're -- we're 7 losing three years of savings compared to what would 8 happen absent a negotiation. And those three years, you 9 know, there's a lot of RTUs sold in those three years. 10 So we're very hesitant to, you know, there were 11 a lot of -- not everybody in our team is fully 12 comfortable with 2022. There was a -- I mean, we 13 certainly would like to see that date earlier, but we 14 hear the arguments, Rusty has laid them out, about: How 15 soon can refrigerant work be done? 16 Our view is that 2022 sets a date that would 17 help drive all the pieces that have to come into place. 18 And I know it's faster than what you laid out, Rusty, but 19 once that date is set, then folks will go to work, right, 20 on all these different components that have to happen for 21 there to be a redesign to meet efficiency standards and 22 refrigerant changes in that same -- in that time frame. 23 And it's a three-year delay from what happened absent and 24 it gets us to a single date for the two -- for the two 25 change overs. In terms of the --

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 62 1 MS. HOOTMAN: The TSL-4, is that 2 a (inaudible) -- 3 MR. deLASKI: So yeah, TSL-4 for all of the 4 product classes. And then for the breaks, you put breaks 5 that were different than the proposed rule. We would 6 accept the breaks for heat pumps that you outlined for 7 the gas packs. 8 We would suggest that, as you did, that further 9 analysis will help us understand what the proper break 10 should be. You said .3 with a footnote, so I guess we 11 tentatively agreed to .3 with a footnote further analysis 12 based on what Detlef and his team might be able to do and 13 the manufacturers. 14 So the overall, you know, benefits of this 15 approach is it gets us one major redesign rather than 16 two. Oh, and then furnaces. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, yes, furnaces. 18 MR. deLASKI: So for furnaces, we would accept 19 your proposal of 81 percent as part of step 2 which puts 20 off all that work until -- lets you stage that work over 21 the course of this entire period. One date. 22 Anything else you guys want to add? Capture it? 23 I'm so happy to entertain any clarifying questions or -- 24 MR. BANTLE: Any questions or initial comments? 25 MR. THARP: This is Rusty from Goodman. I guess

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 63 1 one of the questions I would ask is when you say -- when 2 you guys see cost-justified, what are you looking at 3 specifically when you say it's "cost-justified"? 4 As far as you're looking for a simple payback or 5 are you looking at -- is there certain metric 6 (inaudible). 7 MR. deLASKI: Look at slide 68. And I can look 8 at the 67 and 68, and I look at the national net value of 9 both 3 and 7 percent, and on TSL-5 it's $112 billion and 10 they're all positive on the right-hand side. 11 At 7 percent, it's $33.1 million, but all 12 positive on the right-hand side. So if I was -- if I was 13 in a rule making, I (inaudible). Now, I recognize that 14 there's very few products (inaudible). You know, so you 15 know, I don't -- but it and with that challenges the 16 good, better, best differentiations to manufacturers 17 that, you know, are -- are significant at that level. 18 So I'm not -- I'm talking when I'm answering 19 your question, I say cross (inaudible). 20 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave from Allied. In 21 looking at slide 77, you know, that kind of reinforces 22 your statement, Andrew that at -- you know, that the 23 negative -- potential negative MPB is -- 24 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, and that's where Dave had -- 25 that's where I drew the line for us. Whether or not you

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 64 1 believe the numbers, we can believe the shape. And at 2 some point, we start to fall off a cliff (inaudible) was 3 rationale in the NOPR that John read earlier. 4 MR. WINNINGHAM: Right. 5 MR. SACHS: If I could just add to that. One of 6 the goals of our response was to try to get as much 7 synergy out of that single redesign as possible to try to 8 bend the curve on the computed manufacturer impact. We 9 have no way of seeing inside your processes to know 10 whether it's highly significant or just a gesture. 11 It's something that we've all came to feel was 12 very important in trying to support industry efforts. 13 MR. WINNINGHAM: And Harvey and Andrew, we 14 greatly appreciate that and understand your thought 15 process going into that. And the manufacturing, you 16 know, the direct manufacturer impacts of the cost of the 17 redesign are one side of it. 18 But there's the other side of it that, due to 19 increased products costs, loss of volume, loss of 20 business, is another side of it. And you see some of 21 that in the shipment curves as you go up to higher TSLs, 22 the drop becomes more dramatic. And then obviously we 23 need to talk about this, but we appreciate your thought 24 process on that. 25 MR. SACHS: And again the -- this is Harvey

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 65 1 again. And again, just trying to show the thought 2 processes. Part of it clearly is that if we can help to 3 control costs if you guys can do the manufacturing 4 process improvements that one would expect with the 5 redesign, even though these aren't produced in the 6 volumes of the residential equipment, that these things 7 may help control the cost increases for more metal, and 8 therefore, in terms of the -- well, and therefore 9 minimize any price impact that might have been calculated 10 earlier at those TSLs. 11 MALE SPEAKER: Just a clarification -- 12 MALE SPEAKER: You need the mic. What's that? 13 MR. SACHS: I just unloaded -- 14 MALE SPEAKER: No, I got two of them. So going 15 into this exercise, my understanding is we're going to 16 drop EER and adopt IEER as the main and the only 17 descriptor for these units. Are you saying now you want 18 both of them and the DOE is now going to rule on both of 19 them? 20 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I don't know what DUE 21 proposed. I don't know if they chose to drop it, someone 22 can clarify on that. We raised early on in the process 23 that we thought it was -- maybe before -- maybe in some 24 private discussions before, but it was always the 25 manufacturers that we are interested in maintaining the

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 66 1 current EER. And Marshall's raised it every chance he 2 gets. So I hope it's not a surprise to people that we 3 would like, you know, there was some discussion about 4 trying to bump it up. 5 And I think even though we've decided not to 6 press on that particular level thinking that that would 7 be difficult. But the desire here was to maintain it to 8 prevent any states that are concerned about backsliding 9 MALE SPEAKER: So I think as of yesterday Eric 10 mentioned that both of them would be -- could be adopted 11 as main descriptors; right? 12 MR. deLASKI: I don't think Eric said it quite 13 so bluntly, but -- 14 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt. I think he 15 said they would consider it, and I really appreciate 16 people helping me meet the concerns we have in 17 California, but thank you. 18 MR. AMRANE: Let me ask a question here. ASHRAE 19 90.1 has both descriptors and ASHRAE does have the intent 20 to remove the EER. So the fact that the 90.1 is not 21 enough for you or you want DUE to regulate two metric? 22 Because we don't see the need for it because it's already 23 in ASHRAE 90.1, it's going to stay ASHRAE 90.1, it's 24 going to stay in the California. And so I -- 25 MR. deLASKI: So I don't know, Karim. That's

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 67 1 our proposal, you know, we welcome a counter-proposal. 2 And I -- on the details, you can talk to Marshall offline 3 as to what -- I mean, we don't know what's going to stay 4 at 90.1 in the long term. We don't know -- once DUE, and 5 from in terms of building codes, I -- we'd have to talk 6 through what's permitted if DUE drops it. 7 MR. WHITWELL: They're in there now. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: It's been there for a long time. 9 MR. deLASKI: Because of the ASHRAE. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: At least -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: Well, IEER has been -- 12 MR. deLASKI: You said California has it. I was 13 thinking of Title 20 -- or was it 24 would limit Title 14 20, but okay. 15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey and I'd like a 16 clarification on 90.1 table 6.8-.1-1, as I'm looking at 17 it, we have the dual EER and IEER standards before 18 1/1/2016, and only in IEER as of 1/1/2016. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: That's always changing. 20 MR. WHITWELL: And Harvey, this is Bob Whitwell 21 from Carrier. What that means is that the IEER level 22 changes, but the IEER, January 1 2016, the EER level 23 stays the same, no change. 24 MR. SACHS: Is that written in the text? 25 MR. AMRANE: It has always been that way in

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 68 1 ASHRAE 90.1. We are putting the date it's only for the 2 new levels as of 2016. But EER that's in there, it's in 3 there; it doesn't move, it doesn't change, and it's still 4 part of the standard. 5 MR. deLASKI: So maybe there needs to be some 6 clarification of that in the next version; right? 7 MR. SACHS: Well, that's what we were concerned 8 about, the ambiguity. And we didn't all read it the same 9 way, so I very much appreciate that clarification, but I 10 think the important takeaway is that some states that 11 have fairly large sales remain convinced that EER is 12 important to them. And we did not want to see that 13 abandoned, but I think just as important is recognizing 14 what we have learned from you guys as manufacturers that 15 it's certainly debatable how cost effective it is to 16 raise EER, relative to other strategies that might be 17 available for controlling peak. 18 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, California 19 IOUs PG&E. So we are going to incentivizing and continue 20 to incentivize on EER and the best place to get it would 21 be if it was in a DOE ruling, and an AHRI would be 22 publishing it, of course. 23 So having that assurance and not being party 24 to -- well, the public's party to 90.1, but that's a 25 process, it's not at all as firm as this process. So

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 69 1 trusting the DOE process as being much more certain, we 2 definitely need the EER. 3 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. AHRI 4 certified both the EER and the IEER and has been doing it 5 for many years and we don't intend to drop the EER, as 6 well. 7 MR. HUNT: Then you'd be fine with putting EER 8 in this descriptor, I'm just worried about backsliding. 9 So we're open to -- you know, of course we're open to a 10 counter-proposal in all points. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Just a comment, Bob Whitwell from 12 Carrier. I guess one concern is if there's the two 13 metrics, then in subsequent rule makings, what's going to 14 change; right? Is EER going to continue -- is it going 15 to climb in the future or is that going to stay constant? 16 And IEER changes, so you know, you've got two 17 descriptors, it could -- yeah, you don't know what's 18 going to happen in the future rule makings and it can 19 drive completely different design decisions. 20 MR. SACHS: We appreciate that; we certainly 21 understand that. We're not asking for that change, and 22 at this point, we're offering to lock that in for the 23 rule that would take effect in 2022, and after that, I'm 24 not part of this picture. 25 MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, but we still have to worry

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 70 1 about the future for the industry. 2 MR. deLASKI: Thank you for reminding us of that 3 because you did explain that early on in the process as 4 well, and I appreciate being reminded of that factor. 5 MR. SACHS: Yeah, and I think there are many 6 options that I don't think any of us is ready to discuss, 7 but particularly for large units, we've even seen the 8 dual path adopted for water-cooled chillers. So I'm -- 9 all I can do is say this is what we feel is appropriate 10 for as far as we can see into the future. 11 MR. deLASKI: So let me -- what I would say 12 we'll take back is, thank you for reminding me of that 13 because we will take it back to our group, you know, can 14 we think of something creative that would address that 15 particular concern of ending up with a new, you know, two 16 metrics, both going higher in the future. So that gives 17 us a little bit of homework. 18 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah with Emerson. Just as 19 you do that, generally speaking IEER and EER, they work 20 against each other. As you design products, especially 21 working for both these guys, you can design a compressor 22 at full EER, you can focus on that with a (inaudible) 23 into the motor. 24 Now we're talking about raising the bar with 25 IEER or keeping EER the same or going potentially higher

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 71 1 in the future. That's very challenging, just keep that 2 in mind as you go through this process. 3 MR. SACHS: We understand, and perhaps we draw 4 too much from an inappropriate parallel with what's 5 happened with the chillers. But we're very sensitive to 6 the challenges that are faced, and this is why we beat up 7 Marshall until he agreed not to look for more stringent 8 EERs. And he was 20 pounds heavier and six inches taller 9 yesterday. 10 MALE SPEAKER: If you need help, let me know. 11 (Laughter.) 12 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. Regarding 13 the time for the second step, the 2022. Some of the 14 timing is independent of AHRI, like, for example, 15 changing all the codes and standards to accept those new 16 alternative refrigerants. So that's why we push for 2024 17 date is really because we don't know, to be honest with 18 you, the exact time by which those standards and code are 19 going to be amended to accept those new refrigerants. 20 So I hope you understand the issue here, because 21 it's -- as much as we would like it to happen tomorrow, I 22 mean, it's beyond the AHRI and beyond the manufacturers. 23 There's a lot of parties involved: ASHRAE's involved, 24 the ICC's involved, a lot of folks involved here and 25 outside of really what we can control as manufacturers.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 72 1 MR. HILLBRAND: This is Alex with NRDC. We 2 definitely appreciate that position and also appreciate 3 the insight that Rusty laid out into the process and we 4 hope that by setting a date as we proposed of 2022 that 5 some of this will now begin in parallel and not 6 necessarily as serialized as the process was laid out. 7 And we -- we feel that, with efforts pointing in that 8 direction, it can happen faster than the 9 business-as-usual pace that was described. 10 MR. deLASKI: You're sure that climbing back up 11 at a 30,000-foot level is we're saying -- well, let the 12 date go later, but the stringent -- we're looking for a 13 very high stringency. So it's time versus stringency. 14 But otherwise we're looking at 2019; right? So that 15 certainly won't work. 16 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So Karen, you have 17 something? 18 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. I just -- and this is Karen 19 with Rheem and so kind of just lay this out where the 20 rubber meets the road. If we went with TSL, our proposal 21 is step 1, which is ASHRAE in 2018 for the small 22 products, that's a 12.9 IEER. Four years later in your 23 proposal, it would be a 19.9 IEER. That's like a 24 50 percent increase in four years. 25 I'm just saying that first blush, this is not

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 73 1 going to go well with, you know, my CFO. So I just want 2 to kind of lay that out as a little perspective. I 3 think, you know, there's no way even a subsequent rule 4 making going through the standard channels could quite 5 ever justify a 50 percent increase in four years. 6 So that's just my first blush. Appreciate the 7 proposal, but when I look at the -- you know, the 8 efficiency level differential that manufacturers would be 9 able -- would have to meet in four years with an unknown 10 refrigerant, its unknown efficiency proponents of that 11 efficiency standard, not having compressors available 12 even to begin, and then all of the stuff that Rusty laid 13 out, it's a pretty big ask for your step 2. 14 But I do think the industry needs to caucus on 15 this issue. You know, I'm hoping we can certainly find 16 some way to keep these discussions going. But, you 17 know -- so I think, you know, if it's okay with the group 18 and unless anyone has some other comments, I'd like to -- 19 and he's raising his finger, so I think he does. But I 20 would like the opportunity to caucus on this issue before 21 we get into too many more comments. 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. I just 23 want to ask a question about the refrigerants. What 24 exactly is driving the refrigerant? Is there a snap 25 proposal that took away the refrigerant here?

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 74 1 MR. STARR: It's the Montreal protocol and the 2 desire for a lower GWP. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: But there's no proposal or a rag 4 out there that -- 5 MALE SPEAKER: So EPA won't issue a snap until 6 there is an approved safety standard. And at -- I think 7 you missed the -- 8 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yeah, so that was like -- 9 MALE SPEAKER: But it's -- the North American 10 resized safety standard, I can't see it coming out before 11 2018 at the earliest; therefore, EPA snap process won't 12 start until that point in time. 13 MR. CYMBALSKY: So currently on the table -- 14 MALE SPEAKER: That's at the earliest. 15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So my question is Rule 16 20, I think they call it, the proposal didn't propose 17 anything for these products; right? It's status quo is 18 the proposal. And they plan to go final with whatever 19 they go final with some time this summer as I understand 20 it. 21 MALE SPEAKER: Right. For these products, so -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: So both sides have talked about 23 the refrigerant issue. I just wanted to make sure I 24 understood what the issue was, because from a regulatory 25 point of view, I didn't know there was a pending issue.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 75 1 MR. AMRANE: But at the same time, John -- this 2 is Karim with AHRI -- this was pushed by the U.S. 3 Administrative Protocol. So they have things happening 4 that will -- as soon as we have the safety standard, 5 trigger some snap decision by EPA. 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: So what I'm saying is what was 7 proposed in the snap rule was product specific content. 8 MR. AMRANE: That's true. 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: And these products were not part 10 of that. 11 MR. AMRANE: That's correct. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Just wanted to make sure we were 13 all on the same page. Just clarifying my question. I'm 14 not prejudicing a decision one way or another. 15 MALE SPEAKER: In case everyone's not aware, 16 there was a White House CEQ meeting with industry making 17 commitments to advance H.F.Cs. There's going to be a 18 follow-up meeting in October. So there's a large, very 19 heavy push to get alternate refrigerants and to go -- to 20 move to lower GWP as quickly as possible. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I mean, I was just 22 trying to -- I'm just questioning the redesign times 23 that, you know, both you guys and Andrew had brought up. 24 I thought there -- that was referencing some regular 25 that's out there, but clearly that's not the case.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 76 1 MALE SPEAKER: So I guess I would like, 2 generally speaking, to echo what Karen commented because 3 as I look at the EL-4 and the slide 77 that Dave 4 mentioned earlier, you know, 40 percent to 50 percent 5 reduction for TSL-4, TSL-5 in industry net present value. 6 Again, this CFO wouldn't be happy with those kind of 7 headwinds in not the best market. 8 But that aside, I guess the one other comment, I 9 must have missed -- I didn't write it down, so apologize 10 if I missed it, but on the IEER Delta, what was the 11 response on the IER Delta's for the gas and the others? 12 It's 7.6? (inaudible) analysis okay. Thank you .3 13 (inaudible) and thank you for your efforts and your 14 thoughts. Appreciate it. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Are there any comments 16 from the online working group members? I think right now 17 we only have Mark. Or is Michael on as well? Okay. 18 Then I put up there that that first step that 19 industry had proposed and so from what I understand, all 20 this is good; correct? 21 MR. SACHS: I think. 22 MR. deLASKI: All that's good as part of the 23 package. We presented a package. 24 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm just trying to understand 25 where your focus is right now. Okay.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 77 1 So as a package, then, then that looks okay. 2 And then as far as the step 2 goes, we're looking at the 3 effective date, the levels, and even with the -- let me 4 get it over here -- gas furnace. That's okay with the 5 exception of the date. We're looking at 2022 versus 6 2024. 7 MR. deLASKI: I guess I would say that's 8 correct, but what I want to be clear and I say as a 9 package -- I wasn't saying as a package in step 1. I'm 10 saying we propose an overall package and there are 11 tradeoffs amongst these different elements. 12 MR. RAMIREZ: Thank you for that clarification. 13 That's how I'm looking at all this is, we're not agreeing 14 to one little component by itself, we're looking at one 15 whole rule. So then the focus narrows down to the levels 16 and the effective date in step 2. 17 MR. AMRANE: And also the EER. 18 MR. deLASKI: And a couple other points that we 19 made initially, those two initial points that were not 20 part of the industry's proposal, but are part of our 21 counter-proposal, EER and a commitment to revisit or to 22 tune -- thank you, Harvey -- IEER. 23 MR. RAMIREZ: Would that be a recommendation to 24 the secretary to -- 25 MR. deLASKI: I think how we finally structure

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 78 1 is, I think is EBD, but it would be part of the term 2 sheet of the agreement. Yeah, it would be somehow 3 recommended to the secretary just because that's the sort 4 of form in which we're working it. AHRI owns the test 5 method, so to speak. So -- 6 MR. RAMIREZ: So then if we're going to take a 7 caucus, then the industry's group's going to be looking 8 at the levels and the year and I would say that the 9 advocate group, you're going to be revisiting the EER 10 piece to see how you can address some of the concerns of 11 the industry raised on that; correct? 12 How much time would the group like? A week? 13 Okay. All right. If that is the case, then we probably 14 do have just a few minor closing items. And so let me 15 ask the group, well, is that serious as far as next week? 16 MS. MEYERS: No, no. 17 MR. RAMIREZ: How much time would you like 18 today, then? 19 MS. MEYERS: Well, the industry will request 30 20 minutes, but as this group knows -- 21 MR. RAMIREZ: So we'll start with the 30 22 minutes. 23 MS. MEYERS: We'll start with 30 minutes. We 24 will do our best to come back in 30 minutes, but we've 25 not yet made our --

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 79 1 MR. RAMIREZ: Well, I'll tell you what: Just 2 keep us posted and if at some point you see that you need 3 more, just let us know and we'll keep everyone posted. 4 MR. deLASKI: I, for one, have a hard stop at 5 3:00. I think others do, too. 6 MR. RAMIREZ: So we'll try to come back in 30 7 minutes, then. 8 (Recess taken.) 9 MR. BANTLE: Let's bring it back together. 10 Manufacturers group has come back. We do have just one 11 announcement: If you can remember to turn on your 12 microphones just so we can get it on the record for the 13 transcript, that would be much appreciated, and I'll turn 14 it over to the manufacturers group. 15 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. This is Dave Winningham 16 with Allied. Thank you for bringing that proposal to us. 17 We have caucused, and there are some issues that we think 18 we can move on, but there are several others where we -- 19 we don't think we can move at this point in time. In 20 regard to step 1, we are willing to bring in the -- to 21 accelerate the date of the large and very large to 2018 22 versus the proposed 2019. 23 In regard to step 2, we still believe that 24 TSL-4, which was previously the max tech level for the 25 NOPR, is beyond what the manufacturers can accept. As

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 80 1 John eloquently stated this morning, DOE had rejected 2 EL-4 previously, and we believe the burden exceeds the 3 benefit there. You know, we feel that one of the major 4 gives from the manufacturer's side, we have participated 5 willingly in the update of the energy and system 6 modeling. 7 And the major impact here has been the 8 inconclusion of fan energy in the analysis. And we 9 understand the impacts of that in the real world 10 applications, but that is driving the analysis -- but 11 this is still outside of the test procedure. And I think 12 that the manufacturers feel very strongly that that give, 13 if you will, needs to be recognized in the levels that we 14 are discussing. I think that kind of summarizes where 15 our caucus landed. 16 Karen -- oh, the other -- the other -- the other 17 note that we also discussed is the EER metric. At this 18 point, we don't feel that that is acceptable to the 19 manufacturers. We think there are many risks with that 20 in the future. There is also the legal risk, we believe 21 it is beyond DOE's authority for commercial products to 22 regulate more than one metric. 23 And while we may be able to agree upon that, 24 there are -- there are other entities, and I think that 25 understanding the legal ramifications where we are today

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 81 1 that the manufacturers can only support one metric. 2 Rusty? Karen? 3 MR. THARP: We do agree, I think, that there's a 4 good merit, the one thing that was not -- that was not 5 hit on that there's a good merit in some future 6 evaluation of the IEER test method. 7 We did spend a lot of time talking on this, so 8 this may be more me than others. So I think there's 9 definitely some very good method in addressing the IEER 10 test procedure and modifying it so that it -- developing 11 a test procedure that does properly account for the 12 energy being consumed in the ventilation mode. 13 Again, for us, to me, one of the big drivers 14 even at the levels that we have, there's a very, very -- 15 I guess I'll call it a very, very significant industry 16 net present value reduction that's going to, even at that 17 level, it's a hard sell internally. So that's one of the 18 reasons why we're taking the position, just it's 19 continuing to take a very strong negative financial 20 position on industry. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: Any questions or comments? 22 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. So EER, maybe we 23 respond to that one first, is important to us and are 24 disappointed that that's not something that y'all can -- 25 we thought that was pretty straightforward because we

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 82 1 weren't asking for a change. 2 And it sounds like it's not so much -- I'm going 3 to read in between the lines -- but it's not so much the 4 levels as it is the future, what doors that opens up for 5 you. 6 Marshall and Harvey, you guys were thinking a 7 little bit about that. Anything further you want to say 8 today or do you want to save your thoughts for next week? 9 MR. HUNT: I will just ask one question. 10 Marshall Hunt, one question. 11 So Karim, AHRI of course provides a fantastic 12 service for incentive programs and whatnot, so could we 13 put in the term sheet that AHRI continues to publish 14 EERs? 15 MR. AMRANE: Again, something we will have to 16 discuss with the members, but I believe we can consider 17 that request and maybe get back to you. 18 MR. HUNT: And I think, Dave, that gets rid of 19 some of your legal concerns in future and it's one thing 20 we have no control over. But AHRI, this is a matter of 21 continuing a present process. 22 MR. WINNINGHAM: And the manufacturers 23 understand that peak load is important. That peak load 24 is important, you know, particularly for regions such as 25 California and the southwest, and we understand that.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 83 1 And having information available, but a regulated metric 2 or multiple regulated metrics is problematic. 3 MR. HUNT: That's helpful. Thank you. 4 MR. THARP: And even along those lines, AHRI 5 presently has a technical committee that's putting 6 together a standard for demand response. So verification 7 that a manufacturer's product meets certain DR 8 requirements, so we're in the process of developing such 9 a standard and would think it -- I think that committee 10 is open. I may be speaking -- 11 MR. AMRANE: You're welcome to participate if 12 you want to. 13 MR. THARP: We will. Yeah, that's so important 14 to us. 15 MR. AMRANE: What the EPA (inaudible) on as well 16 as I think others. 17 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yeah, I think it's important to 18 understand that the manufacturers are in favor of 19 improved energy efficiency, but we all have businesses to 20 run and people that we have to report to in regard to, 21 you know, the long-term viability of the products that we 22 are discussing here. And the economics of these are very 23 important to our businesses going forward. 24 MR. deLASKI: There's quite a gap on level. And 25 it strikes me that, you know, compared to the NOPR, your

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 84 1 position slide -- it gives up time and it gives up 2 stringency. 3 And I'm going to ask you guys to go back and 4 think about that until we meet again, because it's going 5 to be very hard for us to agree -- I mean, the notion 6 that we would come into a negotiation and negotiate an 7 outcome that gets us a weaker standard than the NOPR? 8 MR. WHITWELL: But on the other hand, Andrew, we 9 are giving something earlier; right? 10 MR. deLASKI: And I will be frank with you. I 11 appreciate that, and I appreciate that you made a little 12 adjustment. We accept that you're tier 1. We didn't 13 propose one that we thought would require redesign. 14 MR. WHITWELL: May not. I mean, there are 15 products out there that will meet it and more will be 16 developed in getting ready for the 2016 date, but there 17 also are those that do not meet it. And those will 18 continue to be -- likely be high volume products for 19 several years. So by agreeing to EL-1, there's -- 20 MR. deLASKI: We'll do the math. 21 MR. WHITWELL: There's some certainty there that 22 that's going to be -- 23 MS. HOOTMAN: Cut off. 24 MR. WHITWELL: -- the minimum efficiency 25 products that are sold. So I think that's worth

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 85 1 something. That should be worth quite a bit, in fact. 2 MS. MEYERS: It should be worth quite a bit -- 3 and this is Karen with Rheem -- it will require complete 4 redesign for my company because today you may not be 5 meeting your ASHRAE standard with your base level 6 efficiency equipment, which means it may not be the most 7 cost effective equipment out there. 8 In most states, I think in all states except for 9 the State of California, if they adopt the ASHRAE 10 standard, it only applies to new construction. And so 11 this is making a federal minimum efficiency standard at 12 the ASHRAE level, which means that every piece of product 13 that gets built must meet that -- and gets installed must 14 meet that standard. So it's huge. 15 And so -- and I'm a pretty small player in the 16 commercial business compared to these other folks in the 17 room. So it's a significant impact on moving the state, 18 and I think I was the -- probably the last holdout on Al 19 advancing the date forward. 20 So it does not mean -- we currently do not 21 have -- we don't have products that meet this across the 22 board, and to be able to get that by January 2018 is 23 going to be a significant investment for my company. 24 MR. THARP: Rusty with Goodman. Going back sort 25 of harping on the INPV a little bit, but if you look at

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 86 1 the NOPR that came out, TSL-3 had an INPV of negative 2 24.7. TSL-4 which INPV rejected because of negative 3 factors was a negative 34.8. And so the TSL-4, in 4 this -- the information we were handed yesterday, is 5 worse than the TSL-4 of the NOPR which DOE had rejected 6 and the TSL-3 that was accepted is between our 7 two-and-a-half and 3. So that's -- just more logic for 8 why we selected the values that we did. 9 MR. deLASKI: I don't want to -- I want to be 10 clear about sort of what we sort of -- the layout for 11 what drives our consideration. And I appreciate, you 12 know, your point Dave about, you know, impacts on 13 businesses and Rusty's points. 14 When you have a standard at a given level, it 15 takes effect in the year 2018 or 2019. And then a few 16 years later, another standard comes into effect that's 17 stronger. What you're getting from that initial standard 18 is three or four years of savings, and then that standard 19 in the year 2022 comes into effect and is in effect until 20 the next iteration, which is now indeterminate, right? 21 We don't know when that's going to happen. 22 There's a schedule, but it's, as Harvey said, 23 many people will be retired when that comes around. So 24 it really is that second level that drives the bulk of 25 the energy savings. It's hard for us to envision trading

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 87 1 off -- that second level is the critical level that 2 drives the overall energy, economic, and environmental 3 benefits. And there are benefits from the initial level, 4 but I think when we go back and do the math -- and we all 5 can do the math and hold up a quad saved as an important 6 measure. We'll see that the quads that we get from that 7 initial level don't make up what is being sacrificed by 8 going with a lower level in that tier 2. 9 Right, for us it's simply look at those quads 10 and, you know, everything that flows from those quads. 11 And I'm not going to do the math on the fly with you here 12 right now, but it's a homework question, perhaps. And 13 it's a -- you know, how do we -- we're looking at a quad 14 number at TSL-4, our proposal, in the year 2022, we don't 15 have it for the year 2022, we have it for three years 16 later. 17 Alex did a back of the envelope, he sees a 1.6 18 quad penalty for doing that three years later than what 19 would otherwise -- what would be the default. So we're 20 looking at 24.8 quads from TSL-4 minus 1.6 quads for the 21 delay for going with a later date. Okay. That's our 22 back of the envelope. 23 MR. DOPPEL: But if we started out the whole 24 deal at 11 quads -- 25 MR. deLASKI: So then we did, again, a back of

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 88 1 the envelope, and we think that the ASHRAE proposal makes 2 up that 1.6 quads. Okay? That's our back of the 3 envelope. 4 So those -- that gets us to the 25. What we 5 lose with time, we make up with the 90.1 proposal 6 effective 2000 with your proposal in step 1. So that's 7 how we're doing it. Okay? That's what's driving our 8 thinking. So you know, this table is a driver for our 9 thinking, the table on page 65 and 66. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, another way to look at is 11 is that even with our proposal, we're still going to be 12 saving significantly more quads than was in the DOE NOPR. 13 So it's huge, I mean, it's still a huge savings and I 14 don't know if it's the biggest, but -- 15 MR. deLASKI: Well, hang on here, Bob. And the 16 DOE NOPR, TSL-3 is 20.4 quads. 17 MALE SPEAKER: I thought it was 11. 18 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, well, the math has changed. 19 MS. MEYERS: But the math includes things it 20 shouldn't include. 21 MR. WHITWELL: And my comparison was that the 22 original NOPR was 11 quads, right, and at that point that 23 was the largest -- I think it was the largest energy 24 savings from any rule making is what I remember reading. 25 So still, with our proposal, it still is going

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 89 1 to be the largest savings from a single rule making. So 2 it's not something insignificant. 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: I don't -- I don't want to 4 interrupt, but I think motors beat that up. 5 MR. WHITWELL: So motors, so new motors? 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: I media motors rule. 7 MR. WHITWELL: So that must have come out since 8 the -- 9 MR. CYMBALSKY: In the summer time, yeah. 10 MR. WINNINGHAM: And Andrew, I don't want to 11 belabor the point, but in line with kind of what Bob's 12 saying, where the majority of the difference in the 13 energy analysis is coming from is from ventilation 14 savings that is outside of the test procedure. We took 15 the test procedure static pressure, and in some cases, 16 quadrupled it, running the fan power up tremendously, and 17 that's where these numbers are being driven from. 18 Now, there are other puts and takes in this 19 whole analysis, and some of them added some and some of 20 them took -- took energy away in the total analysis, but 21 in my opinion, that's the driver here. Again, it's kind 22 of outside of the bounds, but we're willing to have that 23 discussion. 24 So I think in the ask from the manufacturers to 25 the advocates is for your consideration in that

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 90 1 discussion. We think that that's important in our 2 ongoing discussions in commercial and industrial fans and 3 blowers, also. We would like to account for this in one 4 place. We think this is a reasonable place to do it. 5 But again, as you're asking us to consider, you know, 6 your perspective, we're just asking for that same 7 consideration. 8 MR. deLASKI: So in the fan energy -- and to 9 Bob's point, you know, so these are savings that we -- 10 that -- that -- that most of the savings came because we 11 adjusted the external static pressure to be more 12 realistic to represent what actually happens in the real 13 world. 14 So the NOPR didn't capture those savings. The 15 NOPR analysis didn't capture those savings, so we 16 corrected that. 17 MALE SPEAKER: But the requirements for DOE, I 18 know (inaudible) as it's stated in the NOPR, the energy 19 savings as proposed (inaudible). 20 MR. deLASKI: So the DOE, as John responded 21 yesterday and can respond again if he want to, but every 22 analysis that I've been party to, watched over the past 23 years that I've been involved with that has looked at 24 field consumption, and this is no different. And often 25 through the rule making process through the give and take

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 91 1 with state quoters, you better capture field consumption. 2 So it's that, you know, I -- we're looking at 3 the updated analysis and we're not comparing the numbers 4 to the NOPR numbers. We're looking at those tables that 5 I point you to. And we're glad, you know, we really 6 appreciate the work everybody did to get a better 7 analysis. And again, it's not perfect, you know, it will 8 never be perfect. So I know our -- we've got an 9 assignment to think about EER further. 10 We'll fine-tune our calculations, but I already 11 told you what our initial calculations are in terms of 12 the value -- the tradeoffs between -- now, we are 13 definitely looking at, how do you -- if we're going to go 14 with a later date for the standard that requires a major 15 redesign, then we see that the adopting TSL-1 helps make 16 up for going with that later date. However, going with a 17 level lower than what was proposed in the NOPR, you can't 18 make it up, mathematically it can't work. 19 And the revised analysis, you know, we think 20 supports, as we said in our written comments throughout 21 this process, it supports a higher level. You know, I 22 think one point that I would make is that, you know, I 23 think all of us, you know, I noticed that you in your 24 proposal did propose different levels for small, large, 25 and very large.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 92 1 And fortunately, the tables on 65 and 66, you 2 know, gave us some mechanism to look at how to get to the 3 quad up -- how to get -- which ones matter the most from 4 a quad's perspective. So I think that may be -- I'm just 5 suggesting that that may be a useful table for everyone 6 to spend some time with. And how do we get to a quad 7 number that approaches the quad, you know, gets in the 8 right neighborhood of what we think could ultimately 9 happen if we don't reach consensus? 10 MR. RAMIREZ: What slide number is that? 11 MR. deLASKI: The quad numbers are on 66. Very 12 nicely broken down by product class. 13 MR. HURST: Just out of curiosity, this is John 14 Hurst with Lennox. Thank you for sharing the quad 15 numbers that you're going for. Is there an acceptable 16 level of destruction of industry jobs and value? Is 17 there a number that's been calculated by the advocates 18 that you'll accept? 19 MR. deLASKI: That's a tough number, John, 20 because that's a number that you know and I don't; right? 21 MR. HURST: We talk about jobs and dollars, you 22 know we throw quads around, but we don't talk about the 23 impacts to people that lose their jobs and investors that 24 lose value in the companies they invested in based on 25 what they think the market's going to do in the future.

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 93 1 MR. deLASKI: So I ask that you guys come back 2 with, you know, think about what levels are acceptable to 3 you and hopefully we can continue this discussion next 4 week. You're asking me that question, and I don't -- you 5 know, I'm looking at benefits that are, you know, 6 enormous and not -- 7 MR. HURST: It's hard for me to discuss -- 8 MR. deLASKI: I don't know. 9 MR. HURST: It's very hard for me to discuss a 10 benefit in terms of job destruction and value 11 destruction; it's not a benefit. Anything above zero is 12 a benefit, anything below zero is detrimental to our 13 company. I mean -- 14 MR. deLASKI: Right. 15 MR. HURST: And there's nothing here that shows 16 a scenario that shows where there's a -- 17 MR. deLASKI: We tried to address that cost by 18 listening to your concerns and aligning effective dates 19 by bringing dates for the two product categories. We've 20 tried to be quite conscious of addressing a regulation on 21 refrigerants that isn't even yet issued. 22 And, you know, maybe we can't go far enough for 23 you, but we are doing -- we've done a lot of thinking 24 about: How do we get you to do one redesign as opposed 25 to three or four? Which is where this process started;

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 94 1 right? Three or four redesigns. 2 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem, and if 3 I could just respond to that a little bit. You know, we 4 do appreciate what the advocates have done, I just want 5 the advocates also to recognize what the industry has 6 done. 7 So TSL-1 in January 2018 brings the nation 6.3 8 quads of savings. That's got to be in the top five of 9 recent rule makings, and then when you go to 2.5, six 10 years later, you're getting another 17.6. So -- and that 11 has a significant impact on our companies. And, you 12 know, by DOE's own calculation, this is going to have -- 13 this is going to really reduce the size of the industry 14 and have a negative impact on the industry. 15 2.5 wasn't an easy number for us to coalesce 16 around. So it's not that we're ignoring energy savings 17 at all. I mean, I think 6.3's pretty huge. You get that 18 a year-and-a-half earlier or so, so you get a compound 19 versus what the NOPR would give you. And then, you know, 20 2.5, with a heck of a lot of unknowns for the 21 manufacturers because of what these refrigerants are 22 going to do. But if, in fact, they are much lower GWPs 23 inherent in itself would bring you some energy savings 24 over time. As that, you know effect was seen in climate. 25 So it -- you know, it's a pretty huge amount

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 95 1 what we're offering here. You know, to go back at -- at 2 something that would require us to make forty or 3 50 percent increases in efficiency four years after one 4 standard goes into effect, you know, I guess, you know, 5 you may be disappointed in this counter. I was kind of 6 blown away by your initial offer. But you have -- we had 7 different -- diverging sets of goals here. 8 I've been through a lot of these working groups, 9 as have you. And, you know, we're trying to come to a 10 balance here, but we cannot lose sight of the business 11 impact that this has in this country. So you know, we 12 saw what happened when we went from 10 to 13ths here. 13 You saw how many jobs were lost in this county. I'm 14 just -- you know, it does impact a business -- businesses 15 decision and it has a lot of financial impact. 16 And the ultimate person who pays that price is 17 that person in the factory. So I don't think 6.3 and 18 17.6 quads of energy are anything to sneeze at. And 19 that's signing up for a lot with a lot of unknowns. 20 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Let me go ahead and 21 jump in. Because both sides have, I think, stated their 22 cases well, as well as the information I received from 23 Navigant and LBNL. 24 At this point it's just a matter of -- we've 25 actually narrowed down the focus tremendously, as well as

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 96 1 the range, and that's the good news; right? The bad news 2 is, is that we've narrowed it down that it does with 3 fewer pieces on the board to move around and to be 4 creative with. It does make the negotiation slightly 5 more difficult because now we're just talking about a few 6 numbers. I understand the impact are fairly significant, 7 right; however, I am just talking about the negotiating 8 range is getting a little tighter. 9 So unless we're looking at another counter or 10 another proposal today, I would suggest that we start 11 wrapping it up for today since we have a hard 12 3:00 o'clock end time, and we do have just a few closing 13 things as far as opening up the mics for public comment 14 and then make sure we're on the same page for our next 15 meeting. 16 So can we go ahead and open up the mics for 17 public comment? And we could start in the room here. 18 Anyone in the room here? All right. Well, let's -- 19 maybe you can just ask them, does anyone online want to 20 make any comments? Okay. All right. 21 Then as far as next week goes, we have to still 22 take the vote on the dual duct. So that information was 23 sent out, parties could review that, and hopefully we can 24 finalize that one early on. 25 And then both sides are going to be revisiting

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 97 1 the EER piece. So we're going to take a look at that, as 2 well as AHRI to see if they would be able to continue 3 publishing those numbers and then we could resume that 4 discussion as well as parties reviewing slide 66. 5 The one thing that I would ask is that we have 6 two meetings scheduled where it's face-to-face. And I 7 think that this is the best way to negotiate because 8 after that we only have one meeting, which is going to be 9 through Go-To-Meeting. And if we don't have it finalized 10 by then, it's going to be awfully difficult to do it that 11 way. And with our range, there's no reason that we can't 12 get it done at our next meeting, assuming that both sides 13 bring their authority and their creativity. Right, so 14 come prepared to discuss it. 15 Hopefully our caucus times will be minimized, if 16 not reduced -- I mean, if not reduced, eliminated all 17 together. If we could just stay in the room and hash it 18 out, I think that would be best. 19 So any comments or questions before we break? 20 All right. We'll see you all on Tuesday of next week. 21 Thank you. 22 (End of audio.) 23 24 25

### Meeting June 2, 2015 

### 98 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 I, Kylie S. Shepherd, Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter, CERTIFY I was authorized to transcribe the 5 proceedings, and the foregoing transcript is a true and 6 accurate record. 7 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor 9 am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 10 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I 11 financially interested in the action. 12 Dated this 4th day of June, 2015. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25



### 202-220-4158 

# S. \ Kylie S. Shepherd



### Henderson Legal Services, Inc. www.hendersonlegalservices.com

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 A A2Ls44:3,22

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## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 61:20 62:3 62:20 63:10 63:11 64:11 68:8,25 69:10 70:9 71:15 72:16 73:12 75:13 76:15,19,22 77:13 78:13 83:19 85:8 87:4 91:23 94:17 95:20 96:18,20 97:16,20,20 Allied 3:19

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## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 84:3 89:24 93:1 96:19 97:5 asked 15:14

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## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 bounds 89:22 box 12:11

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## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 94:15 Cochran 1:9 code43:23

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4:16 consulting

31:14 consumed

81:12 consumption

90:24 91:1 contact 15:14 content75:7 continual

54:24 continue56:8

68:19 69:14 84:18 93:3 97:2 continued

17:11 42:12 continues

18:23 55:10 82:13 continuing

42:6 81:19 82:21 Contractors

3:18 control 65:3,7

71:25 82:20 controlling

68:17 controls 16:7

42:10

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 conversation

52:2 54:1,3 60:4 conversations

54:21,21 convinced

68:11 Cool 15:11,15

16:8 17:21 cooling 6:11

15:6,7,8 38:24 COP 39:10 copies 41:20 corporation

36:22 correct 9:13

27:4,5 29:16 38:5 41:7 47:6,6 48:11 48:13 75:11 76:20 77:8 78:11 corrected

90:16 correctly41:1 cost21:23

52:21 54:18 56:15,18,19 56:24 60:25 64:16 65:7 68:15 85:7 93:17 cost-justified

63:2,3 costs 64:19

65:3 cough 33:8 Coughlin 1:11

4:9,9 counsel 20:5

98:8,10 count35:12 counted 36:6 counter53:22 55:7 95:5 96:9 counter-pro...

54:12 58:3 67:1 69:10 77:21 counterpart

22:11 country95:11 county95:13 couple29:23

53:11 54:7 56:3 77:18 coupled 12:4 course 62:21

68:22 69:9 82:11 covered 49:14 cow 33:8 created 56:12 creative 70:14

96:4 creativity

97:13 critical 54:14

87:1 cross 19:15

63:19 crossover8:8 cumulative

38:17 cups 33:7 curiosity92:13 current50:24

58:19,21 66:1 currently

49:14 74:13 85:20 curve64:8 curved 24:12 curves 64:21 customer34:1 34:2 Cut84:23 cycle34:2

36:13 46:1 56:14 cycles39:13

60:17 Cymbalsky

1:12 3:11,11 5:9,14 6:22 8:6,25 10:13 10:18,22,25 11:2 16:7 18:15 19:9 73:22 74:3,8 74:13,15,22 75:6,9,12,21 89:3,6,9 D D 3:1 D-duct39:1,3

39:8 D-ducts 50:21 daily56:17 dam 56:1 Dan 1:10 Darlington

1:13 4:19 53:17 data28:3

29:11,12,20 30:10,13 31:20 34:12 39:4 date 37:6

38:16,23 39:20 41:8,9 43:19 45:20 47:14,24 48:1,6 49:3,4 49:6 57:21 58:2 61:13 61:16,19,24 62:21 68:1 71:17 72:4 72:12 77:3,5 77:16 79:21 84:16 85:19 87:21 91:14 91:16 Dated 98:12 dates 37:14

47:10 54:11 55:22 57:9 57:25 93:18 93:19 Dave2:17 3:19

63:20,24 76:3 79:15 82:18 86:12 day 18:11

47:20 98:12 deadline 11:21

48:12 deal 17:19

87:24 debatable

68:15 debate26:6

60:21 decades 45:16 decided 57:18

66:5 decision 30:19

75:5,14 95:15 decisions

69:19 deeply46:19 default87:19 definitely9:2

28:11,14 69:2 72:2 81:9 91:13 definition 8:19

9:16 10:5 14:13 15:10 18:2 del 4:20 25:14

53:17 deLaski 1:14

4:1,1 9:11,22 10:3 14:8,18 15:18 16:2 16:10 17:13 17:17,23 18:3,19 20:4 20:15 21:3,8 21:17,19,22 21:25 29:10 29:17 31:3 37:20,22 38:6 42:2,24 43:2,5 47:1 47:19,24 48:16 49:2,6 50:20 51:1,5 51:10,22 52:8 53:23 58:11,15,20 59:16 62:3 62:18 63:7 63:24 65:20 66:12,25 67:9,12 68:5 70:2,11 72:10 76:22 77:7,18,25 79:4 81:22 83:24 84:10 84:20 86:9 87:25 88:15 88:18 90:8 90:20 92:11 92:19 93:1,8 93:14,17 delay32:14

61:23 87:21 deleting 18:14 delineated 9:3 delivers 57:1,2

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 Delta28:24

50:24 76:10 Delta's 76:11 deltas 57:3 demand 83:6 Department

4:8 depending

7:21 41:5 depth 6:11

13:7 23:18 described

72:9 descriptor

65:17 69:8 descriptors

66:11,19 69:17 design 38:18

45:16,17 69:19 70:20 70:21 designing

46:2 60:8 desire 54:9,22

66:7 74:2 destroying

34:21 destruction

36:21 92:16 93:10,11 details 33:18

67:2 Detlef2:14

4:13 5:6,17 8:14 10:14 10:19 13:4 15:20 16:15 17:1,18 18:5 25:3,12 27:24 30:23 54:2 62:12 detrimental

93:12 develop24:8 developed

27:9 44:4,11 84:16 developing

81:10 83:8 development

36:13 38:10 38:17 44:5,6 44:17 45:16 46:1 devil's20:17 Diane4:20

53:17 difference

89:12 differences

57:5 different 13:18

14:11 24:18 26:17,18 31:20 33:1 34:14 38:13 38:21 56:9 61:20 62:5 69:19 77:11 90:24 91:24 95:7 differential

25:10 26:22 27:1,14 73:8 differentials

31:18 differentiati...

63:16 differently

25:23 difficult34:12

34:13,16 35:22 66:7 96:5 97:10 difficulty28:22 dig 30:3 dimension 13:7 dimensional

16:24 dimensions

17:7 23:1 diminishment

42:19 direct 64:16 direction 20:7

72:8 disappear

58:22 disappointed

81:24 95:5 disconcerted

59:7 discuss 5:20

51:13 70:6 82:16 93:7,9 97:14 discussed

44:8 51:3 59:5 80:17 discussing

51:14 80:14 83:22 discussion

14:2 35:5,25 36:3 38:25 39:2 48:17 52:6 56:10 66:3 89:23 90:1 93:3 97:4 discussions

48:7 59:1 65:24 73:16 90:2 distinguished

25:8 distributed

37:23 41:20 diverging 95:7 docket 14:11 document 22:10 DOE 3:11,12

6:22 11:3 15:12 27:4 33:23 34:5 41:1,2,4 42:9 43:13 48:21 48:21 49:15 56:11 61:5 65:18 68:21 69:1 73:22 80:1 86:5 88:12,16 90:17,20 DOE's 55:24

57:13 80:21 94:12 dog 11:20 doing 7:5 8:11

14:22 15:19 17:6 23:9 25:15,23 48:19 59:25 69:4 87:18 88:7 93:23 dollar7:23

57:11 dollars 35:17

92:21 door7:17,20

10:9 11:24 13:11 22:15 22:16,16 23:3,6 doors 11:16

82:4 doorway7:11

10:10 doorways 7:8 Doppel 1:15

3:16,16 46:8 46:8 87:23 dots26:16 DR 83:7 draft5:18

15:25 dramatic

64:22 draw 71:3 drew 63:25 drive55:10,18

57:12 61:17 69:19 driven 60:8

89:17 driver88:8

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86:24 87:2 driving 11:7

49:3 73:24 80:10 88:7 drop 19:14

30:6 64:22 65:16,21 69:5 drops 30:8

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58:18 67:17 70:8 96:22 dual-duct5:21

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10:2 duct21:1,6,6

96:22 ducting 6:1 ducts 5:2,5 due35:23

64:18 65:20 66:21 67:4,6 during 54:20 dwarf 57:2,4 E

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 E 1:4,4 3:1,1 e-mail 22:10

41:22,23 earlier 18:21

36:10,16 37:6 38:24 48:8,15 61:13 64:3 65:10 76:4 84:9 94:18 earliest 74:11

74:14 early24:7 45:3

53:12 65:22 70:3 96:24 easily34:13 easy94:15 EBD 78:1 echo 76:2 economic

54:18 87:2 economically

34:6 economics

83:22 economizers

42:10 edit7:4 edits 25:7 EER 14:9 32:3

32:5 42:19 42:21 58:6,8 58:21 65:16 66:1,20 67:17,22 68:2,11,16 68:20 69:2,4 69:5,7,14 70:19,22,25 77:17,21 78:9 80:17 81:22 91:9 97:1 EERs 71:8 82:14 effect48:5

52:25 69:23 86:15,16,19 86:19 94:24 95:4 effective37:6

39:11 40:24 41:4,8 50:10 54:10 55:22 56:15,18,19 56:24 60:1 60:25 68:15 77:3,16 85:7 88:6 93:18 effectivity

38:16,23 efficiency7:13

7:21 9:8 11:19 21:16 48:3,8 49:15 55:1 61:21 73:8,10,11 83:19 84:24 85:6,11 95:3 effort34:17

50:16 efforts 64:12

72:7 76:13 eight22:17

28:6 Eileen 1:18 either 9:3

18:14 35:11 41:4 42:22 55:14 59:25 EL 38:1 EL-1 37:6 38:2

84:19 EL-2 38:22 EL-2.5 38:21 EL-4 76:3 80:2 electric 3:16

25:17 27:2 elements 77:11 eliminated

97:16 eloquently

80:1 else 15:4

20:12 29:23 34:11 38:7 62:22 elsewhere

14:3 emerging 6:17

6:19 Emerson 3:15

22:9 50:11 70:18 emission 34:2 emissions

34:3 employee98:8

98:9 enabling 54:2 end 31:12

42:16 96:12 97:22 ending 70:15 energy4:8

7:13 9:8 34:1 36:5,9 42:14 52:20 53:5,6 53:9 54:17 55:10 56:11 56:19 57:6 57:11 59:8 59:11 80:5,8 81:12 83:19 86:25 87:2 88:23 89:13 89:20 90:8 90:18 94:16 94:23 95:18 engaged 43:15 engineer 7:6 11:17 49:21 engineering

26:2,14 28:4 enjoy35:14 enormous

55:10,18 56:10 61:1 93:6 enough 12:4

24:24 30:25 33:8 49:7 66:21 93:22 entertain

62:23 entire 62:21 entities 80:24 envelope

87:17,22 88:1,3 Environment

47:14 environmental

57:12 87:2 envision 86:25 EPA46:14,15

46:19,24 48:25 74:5 74:11 75:5 83:15 equation 47:3 equipment

5:23 18:13 33:25 41:6,6 65:6 85:6,7 equipped 24:8 equivalent

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66:12 ESP 24:9 especially

28:9 46:1 70:20 essentially 39:14 58:22 estimated 34:3 evaluated

56:14 evaluates41:3 evaluating

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20:13 81:6 eventually

50:13 ever73:5 every24:4,11

54:23,23 56:12 66:1 85:12 90:21 everybody3:2

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9:4 15:4 30:15 32:22 51:21 53:12 79:3 92:5 everyone's

75:15 everything

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19:9 30:6 32:3 51:4 53:4 73:24 example 15:12

59:11 71:14 exceeds 80:2 except 85:8 exception 77:5 exchange 29:3 exchanger

26:4

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 exclusion 18:1 exempting

19:8 exercise 65:15 existing 17:2,4

17:20 31:18 36:11 42:23 58:8 exists 11:4,8

18:23 19:10 expect 19:5

27:13 38:14 65:4 expert 9:5 explain 70:3 explanation

45:21 expound

43:18 extent 14:2 exterior 6:1

8:20 external 6:6

8:10,13,22 9:19,23 12:4 24:14,20,21 90:11 eyes57:10 F face23:18 face-to-face

97:6 faced 71:6 fact34:17

60:12 66:20 85:1 94:22 factor26:10

70:4 factors 26:15

26:17 86:3 factory34:23

95:17 fairly68:11 96:6 fall 55:25 64:2 familiar24:5 fan 6:5 25:16

26:11,13,15 26:20,23 59:11 80:8 89:16 90:8 fans 24:3,8

90:2 fantastic 82:11 far20:24 40:17

40:18 43:23 47:14 56:11 59:20 63:4 70:10 77:2 78:15 93:22 96:13,21 faster61:18

72:8 favor32:11

83:18 features 42:13 federal 3:9,10

58:8 85:11 feel 17:24 22:7

57:23 64:11 70:9 72:7 80:3,12,18 FEMALE 17:16

22:19 41:13 41:25 fewer 96:3 field 45:25

46:4 90:24 91:1 figure 32:3

40:13 final 16:1

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50:10 97:9 finally36:16 77:25 financial 81:19

95:15 financially

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91:10 finger73:19 fingers 35:12 firm 68:25 first5:3,12

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48:24 50:9,9 94:8 five-year50:1 flammable

44:1 flexibility49:8

58:1 floor41:11,12 flow 6:8 24:22

27:17 29:2 flows 87:10 fly87:11 focus 70:22

76:25 77:15 95:25 focused 55:21 folks 15:14 19:25 20:9 20:17 34:11 34:24 57:19 61:19 71:24 85:16 follow 16:10 follow-up 16:2

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51:10 62:10 62:11 force 11:7 foregoing 98:5 form 45:10

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92:1 forty95:2 forward 6:25 11:12 15:21 24:11 30:18 41:17 42:14 53:24 54:8 83:23 85:19 forwarded

30:10 found 17:18 four32:12

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25:17 26:4 39:12,12,15 77:4 furnaces

37:17,19 39:10,19 54:3,11 62:16,17,18 further42:25

56:3 62:8,11 82:7 91:9 98:7 future 14:22

21:14 34:13 35:23 36:15 59:13 69:15 69:18 70:1 70:10,16 71:1 80:20 81:5 82:4,19 92:25 G G 3:1 gain 60:12 game 33:13 gap 50:1 83:24 gas 25:10,17

27:2 37:17 37:19 38:24 38:25 39:10 39:12,12,14 39:19 62:7 76:11 77:4 gather57:25

57:25 gave92:2 generally

70:19 76:2 gesture 64:10 getting 22:5

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 22:14 28:23 29:8 30:18 37:5 45:20 53:5,13 84:16 86:17 94:10 96:8 give49:7

80:12 90:25 94:19 given 44:18

86:14 gives45:21

49:7 70:16 80:4 84:1,1 giving 84:9 glad 91:5 go 3:6,7 4:18

7:7,14,16 8:16 10:1,4 10:18 11:17 12:14,15,18 16:20 17:14 19:24 23:12 25:4 27:10 31:24 32:20 32:24 33:16 33:18,19 35:4 37:1 38:7 40:18 42:13,24 45:5,14 46:14 47:14 48:14 56:18 59:20 61:19 64:21 71:2 72:12 73:1 74:18,19 75:19 84:3 87:4 91:13 93:22 94:9 95:1,20 96:16 Go-To-Meeti...

97:9 goals 64:6 95:7 goes 77:2 95:4

96:21 going 4:18

6:23 7:8,16 11:12,18,25 13:10 14:6 14:16 17:19 18:17 19:14 21:1,5,15,22 21:23 25:23 26:12 27:6 28:13 29:8 30:1 34:18 35:12,20 36:8 37:22 38:10,14 39:10 40:7 40:12,20 46:9,10 53:24 56:4,7 56:20 57:17 57:18 58:10 59:9 60:7 64:15 65:14 65:15,18 66:23,24 67:3 68:19 69:13,14,14 69:15,18 70:16,25 71:19 73:1,4 73:16 75:17 78:6,7,9 81:16 82:2 83:23 84:3,4 84:22 85:23 85:24 86:21 87:8,11,21 88:11,25 91:13,16,16 92:15,25 94:12,13,22 96:25 97:1,8 97:10 Gollapudi 1:16 gone40:5

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42:5 54:25 55:1 65:14 69:16 91:8 94:8 gotten 56:12

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32:18 greater 13:19

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12:19 30:14 32:11,19 41:23 42:25 51:14,25 53:15,22 70:13 73:17 76:16 78:9 78:12,15,20 79:10,14 group's 78:7 groups 95:8 grow 11:9 Growl 42:1 guess 7:6 8:25

11:3 15:5 16:3 17:1,18 17:24 18:9 18:15 20:9 25:20 29:10 43:6 62:10 62:25 69:12 76:1,8 77:7 81:15 95:4 guessing

38:12 guy 17:13 guys 11:12

48:17 60:11 60:14 62:22 63:2 65:3 68:14 70:21 75:23 82:6 84:3 93:1 GWP 36:14

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11:22 16:23 17:24 22:1 23:25 30:17 30:23 41:16 42:2,6 51:15 64:13,25 67:15,20 77:22 82:6 86:22 has 6:5,8,9,11

6:19 8:10 9:7 13:22 19:13 25:9,21 27:22 31:2 34:6 36:9 37:13 39:1

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 40:5 41:18 42:8,15 44:10 46:14 47:7 56:13 58:5 61:14 66:19 67:11 67:12,25 69:4 73:18 79:10 80:7 83:5 88:18 90:23 94:5 94:11 95:11 95:15 hash 97:17 haven't 15:2

40:10 having 6:9

13:3,23 68:23 73:11 83:1 headwinds

76:7 healthy35:25

36:3 hear 12:24

30:23 54:11 54:19 55:3,3 61:14 heard 15:2

16:25 17:1 18:21 44:8 54:9,13 56:22 hearing 19:25

48:16 heartburn 61:6 heat5:21

24:23 25:17 25:18 26:4 27:2,2 29:3 39:8 50:22 62:6 heating 5:23

33:25 heavier71:8 heavy75:19 heck34:14

94:20 height6:9,10

19:19 22:24 23:2,2,3 heighth 22:13

22:16,18 hell 11:25 Hello 5:7 help 11:18

15:22 22:14 52:14 61:17 62:9 65:2,7 71:10 helpful 29:12

83:3 helping 66:16 helps 24:17

49:2 91:15 here 3:6 8:2,14

8:17,18 11:3 11:12 13:23 13:25 16:4 17:9,14 18:2 18:20,21 20:6,16,17 20:20 24:24 25:25 26:10 26:16 27:14 27:25 29:12 31:4 33:5 37:4,24 38:20 40:12 40:20 41:9 55:12,13 57:24 66:7 66:18 71:20 71:24 73:25 77:4 80:7 83:22 87:11 88:15 89:21 93:15 95:1,7 95:10,12 96:17,18 Here's 8:18 hesitant 61:10 high 22:17

23:19,21 72:13 84:18 higher 10:1

28:12,14,15 28:22 29:2 57:13 60:18 60:21,22 64:21 70:16 70:25 91:21 highlighted

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70:17 87:12 honest 12:16

36:18 71:17 Hootman 1:19

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11:20 27:3,3 27:7 31:25 32:1 42:17 42:17 66:14 66:14 68:18 68:18 69:7 82:9,10,18 83:3 Hurst 1:21

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26:22 27:1 28:11,14,24 32:2,4 59:1,3 59:9,12 65:16 67:11 67:17,18,21 67:22 69:4 69:16 70:19 70:25 72:22 72:23 76:10 77:22 81:6,9 IER 76:11 ignoring 94:16 II 12:15 IMC45:10 impact 32:1

36:14,19 38:10 52:13 52:22 55:17 64:8 65:9 80:7 85:17 94:11,14 95:11,14,15 96:6 impacted 35:2 impacts 32:3

35:18 36:2 47:25 64:16 80:9 86:12 92:23 important23:3

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 33:19 42:11 55:18 64:12 68:10,12,13 81:23 82:23 82:24 83:13 83:17,23 87:5 90:1 improved

83:19 improvements

65:4 in-effectivity

37:14 inappropriate

71:4 inaudible

10:21 11:24 16:13 17:16 19:23 59:15 62:2 63:6,13 63:14,19 64:2 70:22 76:12,13 83:15 90:18 90:19 incentive

82:12 incentivize

68:20 incentivizing

68:19 inch 7:13

11:13 13:7 inches 6:7,9

6:10,11 7:8,9 7:10 10:8 11:18,20,23 12:4 13:3,10 15:4 16:25 17:3,8 19:19 22:6,16 26:3 71:8 include 6:20

13:25 38:16 42:15,21 88:20 included 36:5 includes 49:14

88:19 including

38:10 57:17 inconclusion

80:8 incorporated

42:8 increase 7:12

26:11 58:19 60:15 72:24 73:5 increased 7:21

64:19 increases 65:7

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30:11 independent

71:14 indeterminate

86:20 indoor5:25

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31:23 32:13 32:14,22 34:5,20 36:19,20 40:5 42:3 45:14 46:12 48:1 50:7 54:6 58:1 64:12 70:1 73:14 75:16 76:5,19 78:11,19 81:15,20 92:16 94:5 94:13,14 industry's 33:5 42:12 77:20 78:7 information

26:5 32:4 36:1 39:5 83:1 86:4 95:22 96:22 informational

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3:5 inundated

49:20 invest34:24 invested 92:24 investment

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55:5 investors

92:23 involved46:19

57:3,4 71:23 71:23,24,24 90:23 IOUs 4:6 68:19 IRC45:10 Irrespective

14:12 isn't 17:14

29:15 93:21 issue 11:23

15:12 16:24 50:3 71:20 73:15,20 74:5,23,24 74:25 issued 54:4

93:21 issues 19:13

45:18 50:2 58:2 79:17 item 31:16

36:3 items 4:25

78:14 iteration 86:20 J J 1:21,23 2:15 Jacobs 4:20

53:17 James 1:8

4:14 January38:3,4

67:22 85:22 94:7 Javier2:2 3:6

3:10 30:17 32:10 Jill 1:19 3:13

20:25 22:1 33:17 36:24 37:3,20 49:23 Jill's 31:8 Jim 4:20 25:14

25:21 26:5 30:10 39:6 53:17 job 93:10 jobs 34:14

35:2,4,4 36:19 92:16 92:21,23 95:13 John 1:12,21

3:11,20 5:2 5:12 6:22

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 8:18 18:9,21 33:15 54:15 55:24 57:17 64:3 73:22 75:1 80:1 90:20 92:13 92:19 Johnson 16:7 jumble32:2 jump7:24 15:1

95:21 June 1:3 98:12 justification

31:21 justified 34:6 justify29:21

73:5 K Kaila 2:3 12:23 Karen 1:25

3:22 32:10 45:23 49:17 72:16,18 76:2 80:16 81:2 85:3 94:2 Karim 1:5 4:15

12:17 15:9 16:3,19 40:15 41:15 47:22 66:25 69:3 71:12 75:2 82:11 Katie 1:11 4:9 keep 22:8,14

50:17 57:20 71:1 73:16 79:2,3 keeping 57:10

70:25 key24:6 kick 11:5 kidding 27:7 kind 4:25 5:2 11:5,6,8 19:11 22:18 33:16 34:8 35:7 38:15 63:21 72:19 73:2 76:6 80:14 89:11 89:21 95:5 Kito3:12 knew 50:1 knock33:8

34:10 35:22 know 5:14 9:9

10:9 12:24 14:16 15:15 19:4 20:16 21:11 22:15 23:1 24:13 25:21 27:8 27:19,22 28:3,17 29:18,19,22 29:25 30:2,5 30:8,10,12 30:13 31:11 35:9,25 36:23 37:7,9 37:10 38:25 39:2,4 40:6,7 40:8,14 42:20 43:11 43:13 45:8 45:13,17 46:3 47:6,7 47:17,21 48:21,21,24 48:24 49:11 49:18,25 50:4,5,14 52:14,15 54:1 55:9 56:2,11 57:14,16,17 57:19 58:18 59:7 61:9,10 61:18 62:14 63:14,15,17 63:21,22 64:9,16 65:20,21 66:3,25 67:1 67:3,4 69:9 69:16,17 70:13,15 71:10,17 73:1,3,7,15 73:17,17 74:25 75:23 76:4 79:3 80:3 82:24 83:21,25 86:12,12,21 87:10,13 88:8,14 90:5 90:9,18 91:2 91:5,7,8,19 91:21,22,23 92:2,7,20,22 93:2,5,5,8,22 94:3,12,19 94:24,25 95:1,4,4,9,11 95:14 knowing 38:12 known 17:19 knows 47:22

78:20 Kylie2:22 98:3

98:17 L L 1:15 43:24 Lab4:10,12 labs 46:9 50:5 lack23:18 laid 61:14,18

72:3,6 73:12 landed 80:15 language

12:10 15:21 large 12:12

17:2 28:19 28:19 33:24 33:24 34:4 36:7 37:16 37:16 38:3,3 38:22,22 57:1,11 59:24 68:11 70:7 75:18 79:21,21 91:24,25 larger28:20

29:7 56:12 61:2 largest 88:23

88:23 89:1 last25:13

53:15 85:18 late44:15 later31:6

43:15 61:4 72:12,22 86:16 87:16 87:18,21 91:14,16 94:10 latest48:25 Lau 1:22 Laughter

12:23 71:11 launching

54:2 Lawrence 4:9

4:11 lay58:3 72:19

73:2 layout86:10 LBNL34:11

95:23 lead 33:4 learned 68:14 least 6:7 23:16

31:1 67:10 leave31:16 left26:24

53:22 legal 4:8 15:22

20:1,5 80:20 80:25 82:19 Lennox33:15

92:14 less 14:1,6

19:20 27:13 30:12 36:17 36:17 39:3 letters 25:6 level 36:20

37:6 39:9 52:11,13,23 53:6,9 56:16 56:18,19,24 58:19 63:17 66:6 67:21 67:22 72:11 73:8 79:24 81:17 83:24 85:5,12 86:14,24 87:1,1,3,7,8 91:17,21 92:16 levels 34:20

40:1,6,23 41:2 43:20 52:15,16 56:14,25 57:1,5 58:6,8 58:21 59:19 60:1,6,10 68:2 77:3,15 78:8 80:13 81:14 82:4 91:24 93:2 Liebert 16:8

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 22:11 life 34:2 56:14 light30:13

32:5 35:6,6 like 9:12 10:16

11:11 15:11 15:16 16:23 22:1 28:6,10 28:12 29:23 31:22 36:9 39:11,19 40:11 42:20 45:24 50:1 52:1 53:1,7 53:12 55:4 58:4 59:1 61:13 66:3 67:15 71:14 71:21 72:23 73:18,20 74:8 76:1 78:12,17 82:2 90:3 like-for-like

21:13 22:2 likely43:12

48:14 57:20 84:18 likes 38:1 limit 18:7 22:4

22:8 67:13 limitation

22:24 limiting 22:17

23:8,8 line 10:12

28:13 40:19 42:18 63:25 89:11 lines 7:18 82:3

83:4 lining 55:21 linked 12:3 listed 6:3 listening 93:18 literature 9:24 little 7:18 8:7

11:9,18 12:10 25:22 26:17 27:25 28:14 34:10 47:1 49:23 70:17 73:2 77:14 82:7 84:11 85:25 94:3 96:8 lived 29:18 load 82:23,23 lock69:22 locked 42:13 logic 86:7 long 18:22

29:19 39:13 45:21 47:17 53:17 67:4,8 long-term

83:21 longer39:16

50:7 look5:2 8:9

10:6 15:17 28:8,10 29:19 34:20 35:1,2,2,15 52:24 56:25 60:16 63:7,7 63:8 71:7 73:7 76:3 85:25 87:9 88:10 92:2 97:1 looked 90:23 looking 13:5,5

19:10 20:10 28:17 29:22 31:20 39:18 45:7,12 47:11 51:25 63:2,4,5,21 67:16 72:12 72:14 77:2,5 77:13,14 78:7 87:13 87:20 91:2,4 91:13 93:5 96:9 looks 25:22

28:12 29:23 38:1 45:2 53:12 77:1 loophole 19:2

20:19,20 lose 88:5

92:23,24 95:10 losing 61:7 loss 64:19,19 lost 95:13 lot28:11 31:8

34:7,15 39:16,16 45:25 50:16 56:1 60:6 61:6,9,11 71:23,24 81:7 93:23 94:20 95:8 95:15,19,19 lots 52:15 loud 54:9 55:3 Louis 2:9 4:4

22:24 23:1 39:24 52:8 low27:17

36:14 38:11 43:18 low-hanging

52:1 lower 9:8 61:2

74:2 75:20 87:8 91:17 94:22 lunch 51:17 53:10 M machine 44:24 Maddox4:22

53:19 made 54:15,20

58:5 77:19 78:25 84:11 magnitude

50:8 main 3:7 65:16

66:11 maintain 66:7 maintaining

65:25 major21:20

48:2 62:15 80:3,7 91:14 majority89:12 makes 17:14

17:17 88:1 making 23:18

34:14 50:12 56:12,18 57:9 61:5 63:13 73:4 75:16 85:11 88:24 89:1 90:25 makings 52:25

57:2,4 69:13 69:18 94:9 MALE3:12,20

12:13 25:9 58:10,13,17 65:11,12,14 66:9 69:25 71:10 74:5,9 74:14,21 75:15 76:1 88:17 90:17 mandated 44:10 manufacturer

17:6 23:10 23:17 28:21 52:22 55:17 64:8,16 manufacture...

80:4 83:7 manufacture...

15:11 16:5 29:18 31:5 35:10 52:13 55:16 60:14 62:13 63:16 65:25 68:14 71:22,25 73:8 79:10 79:14,25 80:12,19 81:1 82:22 83:18 89:24 94:21 manufacturi...

50:15 64:15 65:3 many35:21

42:12 57:3 59:23 69:5 70:5 73:21 80:19 86:23 95:13 Mark2:11

12:23,24,25 13:13,14,15 15:2 53:18 76:17 marked 6:3 market 7:21,22

11:3,4,8 18:22 19:12 19:13 20:18 76:7 market's 92:25 markets 34:15

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 markup 15:6 Marshall 1:20

4:5 27:3 31:25 42:17 58:5 66:14 67:2 68:18 71:7 82:6,10 Marshall's

66:1 material 25:22 math 84:20

87:4,5,11 88:18,19 mathematic...

91:18 matter34:17

60:12 82:20 92:3 95:24 max79:24 maximum 6:8

6:11 56:16 56:18,19 may5:23 6:20

7:13 18:6 27:19 34:10 65:7 80:23 81:8 83:10 84:14 85:4,6 92:4,5 95:5 maybe7:18

10:13 29:13 31:6,7 33:20 35:6,8 42:4 52:10 65:23 65:23 68:5 81:22 82:17 93:22 96:19 McCabe 1:23

4:16,16 McClive53:19 McCrudden

1:24 3:17,17 meal 43:5 mean 8:22 9:7 9:18 10:8,10 12:15 13:10 14:21,23 18:16,17,20 19:18 21:18 21:20 22:14 23:1,2,14 24:21 25:19 28:8,9,12 31:3,17 50:14 61:12 67:3 71:22 75:21 84:5 84:14 85:20 88:13 93:13 94:17 97:16 meaning 6:25 meaningful

57:6 means 5:21

43:11,13 44:16 45:4 46:24 67:21 85:6,12 meant22:15 measure 87:6 mechanical

20:21 21:2 23:6 mechanism

92:2 media 89:6 Mediation 3:9

3:10 meet 6:19

61:21 66:16 73:9 84:4,15 84:17 85:13 85:14,21 meeting 1:2

16:1 44:22 75:16,18 85:5 96:15 97:8,12 meetings 97:6 meets 72:20

83:7 Meg 2:13 member 12:25

13:16 members

16:11 76:16 82:16 membership

16:20 memory8:11 mentioned

18:8 28:23 66:10 76:4 Merinick4:22

53:19 merit 81:4,5 met 18:11 metal 65:7 method 78:5

81:6,9 metric 59:1,3

59:12,17 63:5 66:21 80:17,22 81:1 83:1 metrics 58:18

69:13 70:16 83:2 Meyers 1:25

3:22,22 32:10,10,18 45:23 72:18 78:16,19,23 85:2 88:19 94:2 mic 33:2,3

65:12 Michael 1:23

2:5,8 3:12 4:16,21,21 13:1,1,1,12 13:13,15,16 15:3 53:18 76:17 microphones

79:12 mics 96:13,16 mid-range

28:18 might9:15

26:7 27:13 38:11 43:15 48:7 51:16 52:6 62:12 65:9 68:16 Mike4:20,21

53:18 million 63:11 mind 42:7

50:17 54:8 57:14,20 71:2 mindful 29:6

49:11 minimize 65:9 minimized

97:15 minimizes

55:15 minimum

84:24 85:11 minor78:14 minus 87:20 minutes 53:11

78:20,22,23 78:24 79:7 Mislak2:1

3:24,24 missed 74:7

76:9,10 Mitsubishi

3:16 46:8 mode 81:12 model 33:9

34:13 35:24 45:9 modeled 26:2 modeling 80:6 modest 60:15 modification

58:21 modifications

10:5 44:18 modified

44:12 59:18 modify20:13 modifying

44:18 81:10 monetary34:3 money34:15 Montreal 74:1 more 9:20 10:2

10:16 12:10 16:18 19:6,7 21:16 22:7 23:10 26:16 27:25 28:3 28:22 29:2 30:5,12,13 30:13,24 39:3,4 46:13 47:1,23 50:8 52:10 57:25 64:22 65:7 69:1 71:7 73:21 79:3 80:22 81:8 84:15 86:7 88:12 90:11 96:5 morning 3:2,3

3:8 22:12 25:13 38:25 51:3 80:1 most 10:15

43:12 44:7 48:13 50:23 56:11 57:6 85:6,8 90:10 92:3

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 motor9:25

70:23 motors 89:4,5

89:5,6 mounted 8:11 mounting 8:20 move8:17

68:3 75:20 79:18,19 96:3 moved 35:10 moving 6:5

85:17 MPB 36:19

63:23 MPV34:1 much 21:11,16

27:14 41:19 42:24 51:12 52:12 54:8 55:4 60:3 64:6 68:9 69:1 71:4,21 78:12,17 79:13 82:2,3 94:22 multiple 83:2 must76:9

85:13,13 89:7 N N 1:4 3:1 naive8:7 name 50:16 narrowed

95:25 96:2 narrows 77:15 nation 54:16

94:7 national 4:12

5:12,15 41:4 42:14 53:6 55:10,18 56:10 57:7 57:11 63:8 Navigant4:13

4:14 16:16 34:11 95:23 near36:15 necessarily

14:3 40:4,10 72:6 NEEA4:4 need 6:15,20

14:2 16:19 18:1,3 19:12 19:25 20:13 25:7 29:6 30:2,20,21 30:24 31:4 31:12,13,16 31:19 43:15 51:13 52:6 54:25 55:5 58:16 60:15 64:23 65:12 66:22 69:2 71:10 79:2 needed 55:5 needs 13:18

18:7,23 42:25 59:9 59:12 68:5 73:14 80:13 negative34:20

52:24 53:2 63:23,23 81:19 86:1,2 86:3 94:14 negotiate

55:12 84:6 97:7 negotiated

13:21 negotiating

96:7 negotiation 31:10 61:8 84:6 96:4 negotiations

43:16 58:24 neighborhood

92:8 net34:20 63:8

76:5 81:16 never37:11

91:8 new 6:18 21:7

21:8,10 36:10 37:12 43:12 46:2,3 50:15 54:16 68:2 70:15 71:15,19 85:10 89:5 news 96:1,1 next 16:1

20:14 25:2 31:15,22 36:24 38:8 56:3 59:4 68:6 78:15 82:8 86:20 93:3 96:14 96:21 97:12 97:20 nicely92:12 niche 19:13 Nicholas 2:1 Nick3:24 Nieto4:21

53:19 night25:13 nominated

33:9 non-machine

44:25 non-weather...

6:3 none57:16 NOPR 33:20 36:10 50:25 51:1,2 53:7 64:3 79:25 83:25 84:7 86:1,5 88:12 88:16,22 90:14,15,18 91:4,17 94:19 nor98:8,10 normal 44:19

61:5 North 44:11,16

44:18 74:9 note39:1

80:17 nothing 93:15 noticed 91:23 notion 35:7

84:5 NRDC3:25

43:17 72:1 number 10:24

22:19,20,21 22:22,23 35:3,10,23 36:2 54:24 55:15 57:10 87:14 92:7 92:10,17,19 92:20 94:15 numbers 26:6

34:8 35:2,6 35:16 59:8 64:1 89:17 91:3,4 92:11 92:15 96:6 97:3 numerous

54:14 O O 3:1 o'clock96:12 object24:15 objections

53:13 obviously

12:20 26:6 30:13 50:8 64:22 October75:18 off3:5,6 8:11

32:21 33:4 44:12 62:20 64:2 84:23 87:1 offer49:12

95:6 offering 69:22

95:1 official 43:3 offline 67:2 offshore35:11 often 90:24 oh 9:2 23:23

27:7 62:16 80:16 okay3:2 4:23

4:25 5:5,17 5:19 9:6 12:22,22 13:3,12 15:2 15:5 16:22 21:25 24:23 33:3,10,14 39:22 41:22 41:23 49:2 53:11,21,23 54:22 55:14 67:14 73:17 76:12,17,25 77:1,4 78:13 79:15 87:21 88:2,7 96:20 once20:9

38:18 48:14 54:23,23,23

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 61:19 67:4 ones 10:23

24:11 92:3 ongoing 90:2 online 76:16

96:19 onto45:24 open 4:25

31:10,16 69:9,9 83:10 96:16 opening 54:15

55:25 96:13 opens 82:4 operating

26:16,18,19 opinion 47:17

89:21 opportunity

40:9 73:20 opposed 17:7

25:17 54:24 93:24 optional 31:1 options 9:25

70:6 order 10:1

23:20,24 28:1 39:18 51:13 53:25 original 88:22 originally53:7 otherwise

72:14 87:19 outcome 84:7 outdoor6:1,4

6:5,7 8:12 9:25 24:22 outlined 62:6 outside 8:21

12:14 42:9 59:6 71:25 80:11 89:14 89:22 outweighed 34:4,4 over5:6,6 29:3

33:17 36:12 41:11,12 53:21 56:1 60:15,21 62:20 77:4 79:14 82:20 90:22 94:24 over-constr...

23:2 overall 57:8

62:14 77:10 87:2 overcoming

6:6 overs 61:25 own 24:1

25:20 94:12 owns 78:4 P P 1:4,4 3:1 pace 72:9 package 5:24

8:18 76:23 76:23 77:1,9 77:9,10 packaged 5:22

33:24 packs 62:7 page 75:13

88:9 96:14 paragraph

33:21 parallel 71:4

72:5 parenthesis

8:3 27:2 part 17:17

18:22 22:20 36:6 43:14 45:25 58:8 59:21 60:3 62:19 65:2 68:4 69:24 75:9 76:22 77:20,20 78:1 participate

83:11 participated

80:4 participating

44:5 particular

29:20 59:7 66:6 70:15 particularly

70:7 82:24 parties 71:23

96:23 97:4 98:8 parties' 98:9 party68:23,24

90:22 passing 24:7 past20:1

90:22 patchwork

37:9 path 30:18

70:8 paths 31:1 Paul 1:15 3:16

46:8 pay 11:25 payback63:4 pays95:16 peak32:2

68:17 82:23 82:23 pegged 38:16 penalty87:18 pencil 37:24 pending 74:25 people4:19 16:25 17:9 18:13 22:18 34:25 35:4 35:17 66:2 66:16 83:20 86:23 92:23 per6:12 15:7

19:20 28:7 percent 37:5,7

37:11 39:11 49:11 62:19 63:9,11 72:24 73:5 76:4,4 95:3 perfect 91:7,8 performance

26:13 perhaps 7:14

32:13 71:3 87:12 perils 3:4 period 48:22

62:21 permitted 67:6 Perslex 3:20 person 95:16

95:17 personal

47:16 personally

29:25 44:5 45:14 47:13 perspective

47:16 57:7 73:2 90:6 92:4 Pete 1:9 petitioned

15:12 PG&E 4:5 27:3

32:1 42:17 68:19 phase 14:1 phase-out 55:23 phasing 50:2 pick22:2

36:20,21 47:19 48:6 picked 49:3,6

61:3 picture 69:24 piece 25:3

43:5 78:10 85:12 97:1 pieces 23:4,5

36:25 61:17 96:3 place 58:9

61:17 68:20 90:4,4 plan 47:9

74:18 planning

51:16 play5:9,13

7:22 player85:15 playing20:16 please 22:10

26:25 41:13 plus 49:15

51:17 point5:5 11:11

14:17 18:15 18:19 19:9 26:18,19 29:11 32:7 47:3,12 54:15,20 56:6 58:4,5 64:2 69:22 74:12,25 79:2,19 80:18 86:12 88:22 89:11 90:9 91:5,22 95:24

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 pointed 49:18

55:24 60:11 60:11 pointing 72:7 points26:17

69:10 77:18 77:19 86:13 policies 55:18 pollutants

47:9 portable 12:9 portion 36:7 position 43:3

56:17,20 72:2 81:18 81:20 84:1 positive34:1

63:10,12 possibility

51:15 possible 27:19

32:13 41:20 64:7 75:20 posted 79:2,3 potential 9:1

13:24 20:19 49:1 63:23 potentially

40:2 70:25 potentials

13:20 pounds 71:8 power 5:5

25:16 26:11 26:15,23 89:16 practical 18:7 practice 22:5 preamble 58:2 precursor44:9 predict 19:6

34:18 35:22 prefer 11:7

20:5 preferred 48:6 prejudicing

75:14 prepare 32:8 prepared 20:4

97:14 prescriptive

24:16 present25:22

34:20 76:5 81:16 82:21 presentation

10:20 25:9 32:14 33:5 51:11 presented

25:19 76:23 presenting

25:20,25 33:10,11 presently

43:25 83:5 preserve 11:4

19:15 press 66:6 pressure 6:6

9:20,23 23:22 24:13 26:3 30:6,8 89:15 90:11 presumably

17:2 pretty 15:25

23:19 52:12 58:15 73:13 81:25 85:15 94:17,25 prevent20:18

21:23 22:18 58:22 66:8 prevents

20:20 previously

36:4 79:24 80:2 price 65:9

95:16 primary43:22 private48:7

65:24 probably8:6

14:7 16:19 33:17 39:4 40:7 42:25 44:15,19 50:8 53:4,14 56:2 60:15 78:13 85:18 problem 9:12

11:23 29:8 problematic

83:2 problems

11:25 procedure

36:6 80:11 81:10,11 89:14,15 proceeding

11:5 42:9 proceedings

98:5 process 17:10

38:13,14 40:1,25 41:21 43:14 44:4,17,21 46:15,25 47:2 51:5 60:9 61:5 64:15,24 65:4,22 68:25,25 69:1 70:3 71:2 72:3,6 74:11 82:21 83:8 90:25 91:21 93:25 processes 48:18 50:15 64:9 65:2 processing

46:15 produced

36:15 65:5 product8:8

9:2 14:6 15:11 16:5 17:2,5,11,14 17:19,20 19:2 24:18 37:15 38:21 44:20 45:16 45:17 46:1 46:17,21,21 52:21 62:4 75:7 83:7 85:12 92:12 93:19 production

17:11 35:10 products 7:7

7:19 8:23 9:15 10:14 14:18 20:17 44:2 49:10 49:11,19 63:14 64:19 70:20 72:22 74:17,21 75:9 80:21 83:21 84:15 84:18,25 85:21 programs

82:12 prohibited

47:4 Project4:2 projects 14:9 propeller24:3 proper62:9 properly81:11 proponent

11:19 proponents

73:10 proposal 5:1

31:5,6,11,23 32:14,22 33:6,16 35:19 36:8 36:13 40:19 41:8 47:21 47:22 51:6 53:24,25 54:8 60:24 62:19 67:1 72:20,23 73:7,25 74:3 74:16,18 77:20 79:16 87:14 88:1,5 88:6,11,25 91:24 96:10 propose 74:16

77:10 84:13 91:24 proposed

47:14 54:4,6 55:24 62:5 65:21 72:4 75:7 76:19 79:22 90:19 91:17 proposing

10:8 11:3 39:9 58:20 protocol 74:1

75:3 provide33:22 provided

34:12 provides

82:11 provoke60:15

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 PTAK-type

46:17 public44:23

45:3,6 55:19 96:13,17 public's 68:24 publication

45:6 publish 82:13 publishing

68:22 97:3 pull 31:19 pulley24:12

24:13 pump5:21

24:23 pumps 39:8

50:22 62:6 purposes

27:18 pursue 30:14

46:20 push 71:16

75:19 pushed 75:2 pushing 45:14 put 10:13 15:3

16:4 19:4,14 21:2 27:21 41:8 44:23 45:10 46:3 58:11 60:22 60:23 62:4 76:18 82:13 puts 10:2

62:19 89:18 putting 7:17

20:20 68:1 69:7 83:5 Q quad 87:5,13

87:18 92:3,6 92:7,11,14 quad's 92:4 quadrupled

89:16 quads 36:12

53:8,8 87:6,9 87:10,20,20 87:24 88:2 88:12,16,22 92:22 94:8 95:18 question 8:6

12:2,2,5 15:10 17:18 17:24 20:1 20:15 24:1 30:5 39:25 42:7 50:20 52:9 63:19 66:18 73:23 74:15 75:13 82:9,10 87:12 93:4 questioning

75:22 questions

4:23 6:13 27:23 35:9 39:24 43:7,8 50:18 62:23 62:24 63:1 81:21 97:19 quick7:25

23:9 31:25 39:23 quickly75:20 quill 23:13 quite 12:19

24:18 26:15 57:5 66:12 73:4 83:24 85:1,2 93:20 quo 60:6 74:17 quoters 91:1 R R 1:4 3:1 Racquel 53:18 rag 74:3 raise 68:16 raised 20:15

65:22 66:1 78:11 raising 70:24

73:19 ramifications

80:25 Ramirez2:2

3:10,10 7:24 10:4,24 12:18 13:12 13:15 15:1 17:12,21 18:1 19:22 20:8 24:24 25:2 30:15 30:20 31:22 32:16,20,24 50:18 51:12 51:18,21,24 53:16 72:16 76:15,24 77:12,23 78:6,17,21 79:1,6 81:21 92:10 95:20 range 10:16

18:12 26:15 96:1,8 97:11 ranges 26:7

29:7 rant42:16 Raquel 4:21 rate 6:8 rated 6:7 15:7

15:8,8 rather43:15

60:16 62:15 rationale 33:16 35:19 59:21 64:3 Ray4:21 14:21

53:18 Raybuck2:3

4:18 13:14 reach 92:9 reaching

30:19 reactions 43:9 read 5:19

26:24 33:21 64:3 68:8 82:3 reading 33:10

88:24 ready70:6

84:16 real 11:6 35:3

35:4,17,17 35:17 80:9 90:12 realistic 90:12 realistically

18:17 reality46:15

48:20 realize 22:4 realized 36:10 really7:24

13:23 18:16 24:17 27:16 29:11 30:9 34:21 36:20 39:16 44:3 45:8 48:23 53:24 54:14 55:20,21 66:15 71:17 71:25 86:24 91:5 94:13 reason 18:10

43:22 97:11 reasonable 90:4 reasons 56:22

81:18 received 95:22 recent 50:23

94:9 recess 32:23

53:10 79:8 recognize

14:15,17 63:13 94:5 recognized

80:13 recognizing

68:13 recommend...

30:24 77:23 recommended

78:3 reconfigured

46:10 reconsidered

59:13 reconsiders

59:15,16 record 37:23

79:12 98:6 recover51:19 redesign

39:12,12 48:2,2,4,14 49:9 50:14 54:19,25 55:5 60:13 60:16,17 61:21 62:15 64:7,17 65:5 75:22 84:13 85:4 91:15 93:24 redesigned

39:19 49:12 50:13 redesigning

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 54:22 redesigns

55:16 57:10 59:23,25 60:20 94:1 reduce 94:13 reduced 52:21

97:16,16 reducing

57:10 reduction

26:22 34:5 76:5 81:16 reductions

34:2,3 reference 6:23

27:3 46:23 referenced 7:1 referencing

75:24 refrigerant

44:1 46:3,11 49:20 50:15 55:2,12,22 61:15,22 73:10,24,25 74:23 refrigerants

36:14 38:11 47:4,13 71:16,19 73:23 75:19 93:21 94:21 regard 79:20

79:23 83:20 regarding

25:16 71:12 regions 82:24 regular75:24 regulate 66:21

80:22 regulated 83:1

83:2 regulation 58:9 93:20 regulatory

38:18 39:17 74:24 reinforces

63:21 rejected 80:1

86:2,5 relationship

29:13 relative42:9

68:16 98:7,9 relatively

36:15 52:20 53:6 released 47:7

47:8 reliability

39:14 reliable 45:18 relish 35:14 remain 58:6,9

68:11 remarks 54:15

55:25 remember

23:14 27:15 79:11 88:24 remind 19:22

27:6 reminded 70:4 reminding

70:2,12 remove22:3

66:20 renovation

37:13 repeatedly

58:5 replace 21:3 replacement

20:24 21:13 22:2 36:11 37:12 report83:20 Reporter98:1

98:4 represent

90:12 representative

29:5 representing

26:11 request42:21

58:17 78:19 82:17 requested

32:25 requests

27:19 require 84:13

85:3 95:2 requirement

8:10,13,22 9:20,24 22:14 24:16 24:20,22 requirements

6:4 42:8,19 44:4,25 45:8 45:13 55:6 83:8 90:17 requires 91:14 rerun 26:6 research 13:5 residential

49:19 65:6 resized 74:10 resources

47:8 49:21 respond 81:23

90:21 94:3 responded

90:20 response 30:4

64:6 76:11 83:6 rest 13:8 32:19 restriction 11:16 resume 97:3 retired 86:23 retrofit 13:11

21:3 return 16:24 returning 5:2 review35:20

36:24 43:13 44:24 45:3,6 96:23 reviewing 97:4 revised 5:18

56:2 59:4 91:19 revisions

15:16 56:3 revisit77:21 revisiting 59:3

78:9 96:25 Rheem 3:22

32:11 45:23 72:19 85:3 94:2 rid 9:1 82:18 right5:8 6:17

7:11 8:2,17 8:24 9:10,24 11:12 12:25 12:25 13:1 13:11 14:7 14:10,23 19:19,22,23 20:6,13,14 21:4,8,18,25 22:3,15,17 23:17,20 25:2 27:25 28:4,5,15,25 28:25 29:4 29:17 30:15 31:10 32:20 32:24 33:12 33:13 38:8 38:13 41:23 47:5,11 49:9 49:15 50:22 51:12,24 52:1 55:12 56:9,15,15 56:19 57:1 57:18,23 58:20 59:16 59:16,17,24 61:19 64:4 66:11 68:6 69:14 72:14 72:16 74:15 74:17,21 75:21 76:15 76:16,25 78:13 84:9 86:20 87:9 87:12 88:22 92:8,20 93:14 94:1 95:20 96:1,7 96:18,20 97:13,20 right-hand

63:10,12 rip21:5 rip-out21:21 risk80:20 risks 80:19 Rivest2:5 road 72:20 Robert2:15 robust35:5 roll 48:7,14

52:5 rollout45:20 roof 19:4 21:1 rooftop 19:19

21:12 24:2 24:21 54:3 room 9:4

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 23:6 33:1 44:24 45:1 53:12 57:19 59:6 85:17 96:17,18 97:17 rooms 3:4

49:19 50:4 Rosenquist

2:4 4:11,11 row 3:8 rows 23:17 RTU 24:18 RTUs 61:9 rubber72:20 rule 13:21

52:25 55:24 56:11,17 57:2,4 61:5 62:5 63:13 65:18 69:13 69:18,23 73:3 74:15 75:7 77:15 88:24 89:1,6 90:25 94:9 rules 54:4,5,6

55:12 ruling 68:21 run 19:25 20:5

20:8 22:10 22:11 83:20 running 23:19

23:21 33:5 89:16 Rusty2:12

3:21 6:14 10:7 28:16 30:12 31:1 33:17 36:24 42:4 43:21 52:18 53:4 61:14,18 62:25 72:3 73:12 81:2 85:24 Rusty's86:13 S S 1:4 2:22 3:1

98:3,17 Sachs 2:6 4:3

4:3 11:22 12:17 16:23 22:1 23:25 24:6,15 25:12 26:24 30:17,22 41:16,24 42:1,6 51:15 51:19 59:15 64:5,25 65:13 67:15 67:24 68:7 69:20 70:5 71:3 76:21 sacrificed 87:7 safety43:22

43:25 44:3,9 44:11,12,13 44:14,17,20 44:22 45:18 46:16,21,24 47:15 50:2 74:6,10 75:4 sales 68:11 Sam 4:22

53:19 same 15:18

25:6,9 38:19 40:17 49:17 50:3 53:6,9 53:15 55:6 61:22 67:23 68:8 70:25 75:1,13 90:6 96:14 Sami 2:19 3:15 22:9 50:11 70:18 save82:8 saved 87:5 saving 88:12 savings 34:1,2

36:9,11 42:15 52:21 53:6 54:17 55:10 56:11 57:1,2,6,11 57:12 60:7 61:1,1,7 86:18,25 88:13,24 89:1,14 90:9 90:10,14,15 90:19 94:8 94:16,23 saw 59:8

95:12,13 say5:9,13

6:21 12:11 15:7 18:21 19:11 20:4 21:14 24:10 36:17 40:9 45:13 48:5,5 48:24 51:19 52:18,19 63:1,3,19 70:9,11 77:7 77:8 78:8 82:7 saying 11:10

11:11,15 28:1 29:14 30:12 60:20 65:17 72:11 72:25 75:6 77:9,10 89:12 says8:10 27:1

27:4 33:23 scenario 93:16 scenes 27:21 schedule 44:7

86:22 scheduled

97:6 scope 13:20

13:24 14:14 42:9 second 16:24

37:18 38:9 40:18 71:13 86:24 87:1 secretary

77:24 78:3 see 5:3 8:24

10:22 12:20 12:22,23 19:24 20:2 20:11 26:14 27:12 28:22 31:23 36:8 37:13,19 39:8 51:6 52:2,7 54:25 58:6,7,7 60:6 60:13 61:13 63:2 64:20 66:22 68:12 70:10 74:10 78:10 79:2 87:6 91:15 97:2,20 seeing 37:4

64:9 seen 70:7

94:24 SEER 14:10,19 sees 87:17 selected 86:8 sell 20:23

81:17 selling 22:3 send 15:16 25:8 sense 12:5

30:18 sensitive

28:14 71:5 sensitivity

26:7 28:11 sent26:5

96:23 September

33:21 serialized 72:6 serious 78:15 serve 18:23 service 82:12 serving 19:12 set 14:13

33:20 61:19 sets 61:16

95:7 setting 14:13

72:4 seven 28:6 seven-and-a...

25:14 26:1,9 27:9,15,16 28:10,17 29:5,20 several 52:25

58:25 79:18 84:19 shall 12:11 shame 5:16 shape 64:1 share 31:5 shareowners

34:22,22 36:22 sharing 92:14 She's 31:9 shed 30:13

32:5 sheet 78:2

82:13

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 Shepherd 2:7

2:22 3:23,23 98:3,17 shipment

64:21 short-lived

47:9 shortcomings

59:18 Shorthand

98:3 should 30:25

62:10 85:1,2 shouldn't

88:20 show 12:21

20:2 29:12 65:1 showed 9:18

10:14 30:11 51:7,8 59:8 showing 38:25 shows 2:8

4:21 26:10 53:18 56:10 93:15,16 side 3:7 20:16

26:25 32:13 47:2 60:4 63:10,12 64:17,18,20 80:4 sides 74:22

95:21 96:25 97:12 sight 95:10 significance

42:8 significant

46:11,11 63:17 64:10 81:15 85:17 85:23 94:11 96:6 significantly 9:8 35:6 52:24 88:12 signing 95:19 similar49:24 simple 17:4

63:4 simply87:9 Simultaneous

51:11 since 37:23

51:16 56:1 89:7 96:11 sing 5:11,12 single 5:24

8:18 12:8 36:13 61:24 64:7 89:1 sir49:5 situation 54:5 six22:17

36:12 71:8 94:9 size 23:13

28:21 30:12 37:16 41:6 94:13 sizes 29:6,7

37:14 Skill 16:8,12 SLCP 47:7 slide 7:4 8:14

10:13,22,24 10:25 16:4 36:24 63:7 63:21 76:3 84:1 92:10 97:4 slides 58:12 slightly96:4 slow 58:15,16

58:16 slowly58:13 small 28:19 33:23 37:16 38:2,22 72:21 85:15 91:24 smaller 13:8

29:7 smallest 13:7 snap46:14,16

46:19,24 48:22,25 73:24 74:5 74:11 75:5,7 sneeze 95:18 sold 61:9

84:25 some 12:16

13:3,5 14:17 19:25 22:12 22:18 25:15 25:23 26:5,7 31:16,20 33:22 34:9,9 34:19 35:4 39:2,4,6 41:18 43:12 44:16 47:2,3 47:12 48:22 52:6 59:4,8 60:6,10 64:2 64:20 65:23 66:3 68:5,10 71:13 72:5 73:16,18 74:19 75:5 75:24 78:10 79:2,17 81:5 81:9 82:19 84:21 89:15 89:19,19,19 92:2,6 94:23 somebody

43:18 somehow 78:2 someone 9:9 19:4 20:18 20:20 21:23 65:21 something

7:17 17:8 18:16,18 24:17 25:19 30:2 40:12 45:22 46:2 48:24 49:1 60:5 64:11 70:14 72:17 81:24 82:15 84:9 85:1 89:2 95:2 sometimes

23:15 39:17 58:25 soon 38:14

61:15 75:4 sooner40:24

43:15 sorry 16:10

52:8 sort23:13

28:18 41:21 42:11 44:10 47:25 48:16 49:3 56:5 57:7,8 60:5,6 78:3 85:24 86:10,10 sound 32:25 sounds 9:11

18:16 31:22 82:2 South 35:11 southwest

82:25 space 7:7

18:16 21:15 23:15 speak27:21

35:13 56:7 58:13 78:5 speaker 3:12

3:20 12:13 17:16 22:19 25:9 41:13 41:25 58:10 58:13,15,17 65:11,12,14 66:9 69:25 71:10 74:5,9 74:14,21 75:15 76:1 88:17 90:17 speaking

51:11 70:19 76:2 83:10 specific 11:17

53:25 75:7 specifically

43:19 44:1 63:3 spend 56:2

81:7 92:6 spendings

50:16 spent45:15 spirited 58:25 split5:24 spokes 33:9 spreadsheet

35:3 spreadsheets

32:8 SPVU 8:8,9 9:3

9:16,22 12:5 12:11 SPVUs 12:15 stage27:17

62:20 staged 27:16 stakeholders

18:4 stand 47:24

48:1

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 standard 6:16

6:17,21,25 9:8 13:25 14:19 41:4 44:9 46:16 46:22 48:5 49:15 59:13 59:14 68:4 73:4,11 74:6 74:10 75:4 83:6,9 84:7 85:5,10,11 85:14 86:14 86:16,17,18 91:14 95:4 standard's

44:5,6 standards 4:1

13:20 14:9 14:10,22,24 43:22,25 44:11,12,13 44:14,17,20 44:22 46:24 47:16 48:3 49:25 54:17 55:1 59:4 61:21 67:17 71:15,18 Starr2:9 4:4,4

22:13,20 23:9,19,23 39:25 43:10 52:10 74:1 start3:5,6 5:3

25:25 30:22 32:21 44:17 46:15,25 51:14 52:2,5 56:21,23 57:8 64:2 74:12 78:21 78:23 96:10 96:17 started 4:24 32:25 46:17 53:13 87:23 93:25 starting 56:17 Stas 2:10 state 39:11

85:9,17 91:1 stated 36:16

80:1 90:18 95:21 statement

36:17 63:22 states 37:9

45:12,24 46:5 66:8 68:10 85:8,8 static 6:6 8:10

8:13,22 9:20 9:23 12:4 23:22 24:13 24:14,20,21 89:15 90:11 statics 10:1

24:14 status 60:5

74:17 statutory

14:24 stay66:23,24

67:3 69:15 97:17 stays 18:23

67:23 steal 37:24 step 32:12

37:4,18 38:9 40:16,18 42:22,22 59:21,22 60:17,19,19 60:21,22,22 60:23,24 62:19 71:13 72:21 73:13 76:18 77:2,9 77:16 79:20 79:23 88:6 steps 31:22

38:13 Steven 4:22

53:19 Stevenson 4:7

4:7 still 13:3 34:18

36:18 37:2 39:2 44:25 45:11 53:5,8 68:3 69:25 79:23 80:11 88:11,13,25 88:25 96:21 stop 79:4 story29:15 straightforw...

17:5 81:25 strategies

68:16 strawman 5:1 strikes 83:25 stringency

72:13,13 84:2 stringent71:7

72:12 strong 29:13

30:23 81:19 stronger27:14

86:17 strongly80:12 structure

77:25 stuff42:11

73:12 subject 14:9

14:10,23 subjective

34:9 submitted 40:11 subsequent

6:24 69:13 73:3 such 17:11

82:24 83:8 suddenly 19:2 sufficient

29:14,15 suggest 7:15

42:24 62:8 96:10 suggested 8:1

29:21 suggesting

9:14 92:5 suggestion

6:23 13:18 15:24 suggestions

5:4 suite42:8 summarize

38:1 summarizes

80:14 summer4:7

74:19 89:9 support4:16

64:12 81:1 supports

91:20,21 suppose20:23 supposed 5:9 sure 8:7 24:10

33:2,13 37:21 42:3,4 42:18 51:18 52:17 72:10 74:23 75:12 96:14 Surely29:12 surprise 66:2 suspenders 22:7 switch 5:5 switching 3:4

21:11 sync48:18

49:8 synchronize

57:9 synergy64:7 Syracuse

15:14 syrup33:8 system 20:24

21:8,10,12 80:5 systems 9:4 T table 3:7,7

40:10 42:5 57:24 67:16 74:13 88:8,9 92:5 tables 26:13

91:4 92:1 take 12:6 15:17 28:13 39:5 41:10 59:4 69:23 70:12,13 78:6 81:19 90:25 96:22 97:1 takeaway

68:10 taken 32:23

53:10 79:8 takes 19:18

37:10 45:17 50:7,7,8,16 86:15 89:18 taking 15:20

81:18

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 talk5:19 13:10 13:19 33:20 41:21 56:8 64:23 67:2,5 92:21,22 talked 36:5

37:15 74:22 talking 13:23 14:22 22:24 33:3 34:21 35:17 44:19 56:3,6 63:18 70:24 81:7 96:5,7 talks 8:11,19 taller23:6 71:8 target7:9 task34:16

35:14 teachers 34:23 team 15:23

31:14 61:11 62:12 tech 79:24 technical 83:5 technology

3:3 Ted 1:7 3:8 19:22 25:6 tell 20:18

29:15 56:21 79:1 temperature 12:20 20:2 tend 28:22 tentatively

62:11 term 67:4 78:1

82:13 terms 30:19

43:14 54:17 54:17 61:25 65:8 67:5 91:11 93:10 Terzigni 2:11 4:20 53:18 test36:6 39:14

45:25 49:19 50:4,4 78:4 80:11 81:6 81:10,11 89:14,15 tests 46:4 text67:24 than 12:7 13:19 14:1,7 17:8 18:18 19:20 22:5 23:6 27:15 28:15 30:2 31:20 33:1 36:10 37:7 39:16 40:24 43:15 47:23 48:12 49:16 50:7 60:5,16 60:18 61:2 61:18 62:5 62:15 72:8 80:22 81:8 84:7 86:5 87:18 88:12 91:17 thank4:23 10:3 12:17 25:12 32:22 33:15 41:16 41:24 53:22 53:23 54:1 66:17 70:2 70:12 76:12 76:13 77:12 77:22 79:16 83:3 92:14 97:21 thanks 15:20

38:6 Tharp2:12 3:21,21 6:14 6:14,18 7:5 7:12,15 8:4 11:15 28:16 28:16 29:1,4 29:16,18 33:12 43:21 43:21 46:13 47:6,22 48:11,20 49:5,9,17 50:24 52:18 52:18 62:25 81:3 83:4,13 85:24 thereby55:17 therefore 65:8

65:8 74:11 thing 10:7 16:15 18:25 18:25 19:14 23:10 28:8,9 31:25 35:7 42:5 43:10 46:9,13 51:24 53:4 57:20 81:4 82:19 97:5 things 7:1 11:13 18:12 19:5,5 21:16 24:6 35:8 54:7 55:20 57:23 65:6 75:3 88:19 96:13 think4:25 5:14

6:15 8:3,15 8:22,23,23 9:16,20 10:1 10:9,15,16 11:1,23 12:7 12:13,14 13:2,9,9,18 13:19,22 14:14,18 15:1,15 16:3 16:9,17,19 16:25 17:14 18:3,11 19:10 20:3,6 21:13 22:24 23:7 24:16 25:23 27:25 29:20 30:2 31:5,11,19 33:19 34:14 35:15 38:11 39:2,21 40:23,25 41:18 42:11 43:14 44:8 47:13,16 48:20 50:3 51:13,22 52:4,9,16,20 53:21 54:1 56:5,5 59:9 66:5,9,12,14 68:10,13 70:5,6,14 73:3,14,17 73:19 74:6 74:16 76:16 76:21 77:25 78:1 79:5,17 79:19 80:11 80:14,19,24 81:3,8 82:18 83:9,9,16,17 84:4,25 85:8 85:18 87:4 88:1,23 89:4 89:24 90:1,4 91:9,19,22 91:23 92:4,8 92:25 93:2 94:17 95:17 95:21 97:7 97:18 thinking 20:19

23:11 24:1 47:25 52:12 66:6 67:13 82:6 88:8,9 93:23 thought7:6

9:13,15 17:13 18:21 31:4 35:5 40:2,3 49:7 54:7 64:14 64:23 65:1 65:23 75:24 81:25 84:13 88:17 thoughts 17:12 76:14 82:8 three 14:1

22:25 31:1 38:18 39:17 39:18 41:5 50:7 61:4,7,8 61:9 86:18 87:15,18 93:25 94:1 three-year

61:23 thresholds 19:15 throw46:14

92:22 thumbs 12:21 12:22 20:2 tied 48:22 tier84:12 87:8 tighter96:8 time 11:11

27:10 29:19 38:19 39:13 39:19 43:6

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 44:15,16,19 45:4,15 47:12 48:8 48:22 49:17 50:4,16 51:12 53:15 55:6 58:11 59:3,4 60:3 61:22 67:8 71:13,18 72:13 74:12 74:19 75:1 78:12,17 79:19 81:7 84:1 88:5 89:9 92:6 94:24 96:12 times 38:19

39:16 54:14 58:25 75:22 97:15 timing 38:11

38:15 71:14 tiny 18:22,23 Title 67:13,13 today7:19

9:15 11:4,8 14:4,19 18:22 19:7 19:10,11 20:23 31:6 31:12 47:5 49:10 53:25 58:9 78:18 80:25 82:8 85:4 96:10 96:11 today's 14:9 14:23 together58:12

79:9 83:6 97:17 told 23:16

56:22 91:11 tomorrow 34:19 71:21 ton 27:9 tonnage23:11 tons 12:14,14 took32:8 60:3

73:25 89:14 89:20,20 top56:24 94:8 topic25:10 Toro4:20

25:14 53:17 total 34:1

89:20 totally21:19 tough 92:19 tradeoffs

77:11 91:12 trading 86:25 Trane 3:13

4:17 20:25 37:3 49:23 transcribe

98:4 TRANSCRIB...

2:22 transcript

79:13 98:5 transition 21:7 tremendously

89:16 95:25 trend 27:12

28:13 30:11 tried 93:17,20 trigger75:5 true 12:5 75:8

98:5 trusting 69:1 try21:2 25:21

45:14 64:6,7 79:6 trying 7:12,20

7:20 11:4 21:14 24:20 37:24 38:2 54:12 55:9 55:22 57:8 57:24 64:12 65:1 66:4 75:22 76:24 95:9 TSL34:19 61:2

72:20 TSL-1 60:7

91:15 94:7 TSL-3 55:25

86:1,6 88:16 TSL-4 33:23

34:5,6 60:24 60:25 62:1,3 76:5 79:24 86:2,3,5 87:14,20 TSL-5 56:15

56:20,23 63:9 76:5 TSLs 57:13

64:21 65:10 Tuesday97:20 tune 77:22 turkey56:6 turn 5:6 53:21

79:11,13 twelve 36:12 twice 48:9,9 two 4:25 7:13 12:3 22:25 23:4,5 33:7 41:4 48:18 55:6,8,20,20 60:17,20,20 61:4,24,24 62:16 65:14 66:21 69:12 69:16 70:15 77:19 93:19 97:6 two-and-a-half 45:16 86:7 two-step 36:12

59:20 two-thirds

27:17 type 13:2,11

24:3 46:21 typical 10:9

26:7 typically 12:8

23:7 24:4,8 40:24 41:2 U U.S 58:8 75:2 UL6:15 44:5

44:20 UL1995 6:4,15

8:2 43:25 UL4446:17 UL60335-2-40

6:16 44:1 ultimate 95:16 ultimately

57:18 92:8 unattended

19:3 unconscious

33:8 understand

7:19 9:9 11:10 14:25 24:17 29:13 34:7 35:16 40:25 49:2 52:14 57:22 62:9 64:14 69:21 71:3 71:20 74:19 76:19,24 80:9 82:23 82:25 83:18 96:6 understandi... 46:18,20 59:24 65:15 80:25 understate

35:8 understood

74:24 underway60:2 unit6:2,2,5,8

6:10 7:17 12:6,9 13:6 13:11 24:2 28:24 45:25 50:12 UNITARY 1:1 United 15:11

15:14 16:8 17:21 units 7:23

12:12 13:6 19:19 25:11 25:15,17,18 26:2,13 27:13 28:4 30:7 46:4 54:3 65:17 70:7 unknown 36:2

73:9,10 unknowns

94:20 95:19 unless 13:11

73:18 96:9 unloaded

65:13 unsubstanti...

35:21 unsuccessful

45:19 unusual 54:5 unventilated

7:7 update 80:5 updated 91:3

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 upon 43:18

52:12 80:23 upper 18:7

22:4 upstairs 33:1 use 6:4 11:8

24:22 28:4 35:25 44:3 57:21,23 59:9,11 useful 92:5 uses 28:21 usual 3:5 usually23:12

41:7 Utilities 42:18 V value29:22

34:3,5,20,22 36:21 63:8 76:5 81:16 91:12 92:16 92:24 93:10 values 31:17

43:12 50:21 86:8 various24:14

38:20 VAV26:16

27:13,16 vein 15:18 velocity23:12

23:20 29:2 ventilation

36:5 81:12 89:13 verification

83:6 version 6:24

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42:10

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 wherevers

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95:18

## Meeting June 2, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 19.9 72:23 2 2 1:3 12:3,4

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