### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 1



### U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

+ + + + +

PUBLIC MEETING ON ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FRAMEWORK FOR CEILING FANS AND CEILING FAN LIGHT KITS

+ + + + +

FRIDAY, MARCH 22, 2013

+ + + + +

The meeting convened in Room 8E- 089 of the De partment of Energy, 1000 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, DC, at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT: DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions, Inc., Facilitator ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, DOE ABBEY BAKER, Baker Donelson LAURA BARHYDT, DOE MICHAEL BRANCATO, Navigant Consulting, Inc. RACHEL CLUETT, American Council for an Energy

- Efficient Economy HAYDEN COOK, Navigant Consulting, Inc. JOHN CYMBALSKY, DOE LUCY DEBUTTS, DOE Project Manager JULIA FARBER, Underwriters Laboratories* NATHAN FRAMPTON, Fanimation TOM FRAMPTON, Fanimation KARINA GARBESI, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory DAVE GATTO, Westinghouse Lighting BRAD HEIMANN, Craftmade AISHA HUSAIN, Navigant Consulting, Inc. COLLEEN KANTNER, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory ARIS MARANTAN, Navigant Consulting, Inc.

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 2



### JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness Project TERRY MCGOWAN, American Lighting Association SARAH MEDEPALLI, ICF International ERIK PAGE, Eri k Page & Associates JOHN PARK, for Representative Todd Rokita JEREMY TARR, Hunter Fan Co. DAVID TURNER, Hunter Fan Co. RICHARD UPTON, American Lighting Association BILL WALKER, Hunter Fan Co.

*Participating via webinar

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 3



### TABLE OF CONTENTS

Welcome: Introductions, Agenda Review, and Opening Remarks; Regulatory History and Rulemaking Overview; Scope of Coverage and Definitions

.............. 4

Test Procedures and Metrics

................ 41

Market and Technology Assessment, Screening Analysis

................... 95

Engineering Analysis

...................... 108

Markups and Energy Use Analysis: Life

- Cycle Cost and Payback Period Analysis and National Impacts Analysis

............................ 123

Preliminary Manufacturer Impact Analysis

............................ 138

NOPR Analyses

............................. 147

Closing Remarks

........................... 158

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 4



### P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1



### 9:14 a.m. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 3



### everyone. Welcome. This is the U.S. 4



### Department of Energy's Public Mee ting on Energy 5



### Conservation Standards Framework Meeting for 6



### Ceiling Fans and Ceiling Fan Light Kits. Today 7



### is Tuesday, March 22nd, 2013 here in Washington 8



### D.C. My name is Doug Brookman from Public 9



### Solutions. Good to see you all here this 10



### morning. 11



### We'r e going to start with welcoming 12



### remarks from John Cymbalsky. 13



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Doug. This 14



### is John Cymbalsky, Program Manager for 15



### Appliance Standards and Building Codes here at 16



### the Department. Let me be the first to welcome 17



### all of you to our public meeting here. We 18



### have, I think, good representation from all 19



### sides of the industry and the advocates, so I 20



### hope we all realize this is a framework 21



### document and we're throwing a lot of ideas at 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 5



### you. We know the framework document is 1



### comprehensive, and there's a lot of different 2



### aspects in here to comment on. So, hopefully, 3



### we've all had a chance to read it and comment 4



### here at the meeting, but remember there's 5



### another 30 days or so after this to comment in 6



### writing as we go through. And, again, thanks 7



### for coming. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So then we 9



### typically start with introductions. Let's do 10



### that. I'll start to my immediate left, and you 11



### can get used to turning these microphones on 12



### and off. Please say your name and 13



### organizational affiliation. 14



### MR . MCGOWAN: I'm Terry McGowan. 15



### I'm Director of Engineering for the American 16



### Lighting Association. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 18



### MR. UPTON: Dick Upton, President 19



### and CEO of the American Lighting Association. 20



### MR. FRAMPTON: Nathan Frampton, 21



### President of Fanimation. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 6



### MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 1



### Standards Awareness Project. 2



### MS. CLUETT: Rachel Cluett, the 3



### American Council for an Energy

- Efficient 4



### Economy. 5



### MR. HEIMANN: Brad Heimann with 6



### Craftmade. 7



### MR. GATTO: Dave Gatto with 8



### Westinghouse Lighting. 9



### MR. WALKER: Bill Walker with Hunter 10



### Fan. 11



### MR. TURNER: David Turner with 12



### Hunter Fan. 13



### MR. TARR: Jeremy Tarr with Hunter 14



### Fan. 15



### MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General 16



### Counsel Office. 17



### MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 18



### MR. COOK: Ha yden Cook with Navigant 19



### Consulting. 20



### DR. MARANTAN: Aris Marantan, 21



### Navigant Consulting. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 7



### DR . GARBESI: Karina Garbesi, 1



### Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. 2



### DR . KANTNER: Colleen Kantner, 3



### Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: We'll start with y ou. 5



### Please stand up and say your name. 6



### MR. PAGE: Erik Page, Lawrence 7



### Berkeley National Lab. 8



### MR. TOM FRAMPTON: Tom Frampton, CEO 9



### of Fanimation. 10



### MS. HUSAIN: Aisha Husain, Navigant. 11



### MS. BAKER: Abbey Baker, Baker 12



### Donelson. 13



### MS. MEDEPALLI: S arah Medepalli with 14



### ICF. 15



### MR. PARK: John Park for 16



### Representative Rokita. 17



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, 18



### DOE. 19



### MS. BARHYDT: Laura Barhydt, DOE. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks to all of you. 21



### I'm going to do a very brief agenda review. I 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 8



### think all of you received a packet of 1



### information as you came in the meeting room 2



### today. Immediately following this agenda 3



### review -- do you want to do a regulatory 4



### history then before we do opening remarks? 5



### MS. DEBUTTS: Sure. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So we'll get to 7



### tha t in just a moment. Immediately following 8



### the agenda review, Lucy DeButts is going to 9



### provide a brief overview of the regulatory 10



### history and other rulemaking matters. 11



### Immediately following that there's an 12



### opportunity for anyone that wishes to do so to 13



### pr ovide brief opening remarks, summary comments 14



### here at the outset, not lengthy, not reading an 15



### entire written report into the record here but 16



### brief summary remarks about issues that matter 17



### to you. 18



### And then, from there, we'll dive 19



### into the detailed content that you found in 20



### this packet of information that you received, 21



### test procedures and metrics. We'll take a 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 9



### break midmorning at about 10:40 or so. Market 1



### and technology assessment following that, 2



### screening analysis, and then immediately 3



### following that engineering analysis. 4



### We'll take a lunch break right about 5



### noon or so when we get there. And then 6



### following lunch, markups and energy use 7



### analysis, life -cycle costs and payback period 8



### analysis, shipments analysis, and national 9



### impacts analysis. And then , continuing on, 10



### preliminary manufacturer impact analysis, NOPR 11



### analyses. And at the end of the day today, 12



### which we anticipate will be sometime round 13



### about 1:30 to 2:00 or so, closing remarks and 14



### another opportunity to raise issues that 15



### haven't been cover ed sufficiently by anybody in 16



### the room. 17



### So that's the plan for today. 18



### Questions and comments on the agenda? I see 19



### none. I'd ask for your consideration, if you 20



### would, please, what I think amounts really to 21



### common courtesy, please speak one at a time. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 10



### If you would say your name for the record each 1



### time you speak. You don't need to say your 2



### organizational affiliation; it's up to you. 3



### There will be a complete transcript of this 4



### meeting. 5



### I'm going to say it again. Please 6



### say your name for the record each time you 7



### speak. If you could keep the focus here and 8



### turn your cell phones on silent mode, limit 9



### your sidebar conversations. Please be concise. 10



### Share the air time. There's lots to be said 11



### in the amount of time that we have here today. 12



### I'm going to be queuing individuals 13



### by name, as best I can, to speak. I'll also 14



### wish to encourage the follow-on, the back and 15



### forth between individuals here in the room. 16



### Sometimes, that's very useful for the 17



### Department to hear. 18



### For webinar participants, we wel come 19



### you. How many web participants do we have, 20



### Jack? Fifteen web participants. The 21



### Department of Energy is trying hard to make 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 11



### these meetings accessible via the web. If you 1



### would keep your telephones on mute, and if you 2



### can raise your hand via the software if you 3



### wish to participate in the conversation or 4



### raise a question or comment. 5



### So that's the preliminary stuff from 6



### me. Then to Lucy DeButts. 7



### MS. DEBUTTS: All right. So for 8



### those who haven't met me, I'm Lucy DeButts. 9



### I'm the team lead for this rulemaking for 10



### ceiling fans and ceiling fan light kits. I 11



### will be presenting some material here, 12



### including the scope of the rulemaking. The 13



### technical experts that are sitting at that 14



### table are going to be helping me through the 15



### presentation. We will introduce each presenter 16



### as we come up. 17



### So I wanted to actually start maybe 18



### with the purpose of the public meeting. And 19



### the purpose today is to present the issues with 20



### the test procedure on ceiling fans and ceiling 21



### fan light kits. We're also going to be 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 12



### presenting the analytical approaches for the 1



### evaluation of energy conservation standards for 2



### both products. 3



### We are interested in your remarks. 4



### We would like to open this as a dialogue 5



### between the DOE and the industry to see how we 6



### can accommodate this rulemaking process. So 7



### this is the open forum and, again, we're asking 8



### for your comments, we're asking for your data 9



### that will help us to make the determination on 10



### which route we should take. 11



### Sorry. I'm experiencing 12



### difficulties flipping through the slides. 13



### There we go. Okay. 14



### Throughout the presentation, you 15



### will see the comment boxes. So the framework 16



### document, which is on the web right now, has 17



### the issues numbered. Throughout the 18



### presentation, you will see the comment boxes. 19



### We're not discussing all the issues today. In 20



### order to save time, we're going to highlight 21



### the main issues. So please speak up. We are 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 13



### seeking your comments. Give us written 1



### comments and data, any data that can help us. 2



### Let's see. Next slide. The written 3



### comments can be submitted using these avenues. 4



### You can send it electronically. You can go on 5



### regulations.gov and use a docket number and the 6



### RIN number when you submit your written 7



### comments. For those who would like to send it 8



### via mail, that option also is available. But, 9



### so far, we've received a couple of comments 10



### from you, and it seems that the electronic way 11



### works best for everyone. 12



### All right. So, actually, if we can 13



### do the opening remarks right now before we go 14



### into the regulatory history, that's probabl y 15



### going to flow better. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Sounds good. 17



### So as suggested in your packet and also the 18



### agenda, let's have summary comments. Dick? 19



### MR. UPTON: Dick Upton, American 20



### Lighting Association. First, thanks for the 21



### opportunity to participat e. We've had 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 14



### interface with the staff for a long time here, 1



### and I like the way the document was laid out as 2



### far as the 75 questions. It's pretty clear. 3



### But for those who don't know, the 4



### American Lighting Association is made up of 5



### designers, lamp manufacturers, the 6



### manufacturers of fixtures, ceiling fans, the 7



### manufacturers' representatives, and the 8



### independent lighting retailers in the United 9



### States, Canada, and the Caribbean . We have 18 10



### ceiling fan manufacturers, two of whom are 11



### Canadian firms. 12



### I was surprised by the scope of the 13



### document. That's up -front. If you're not a 14



### ceiling fan person or you're not an engineer, 15



### it was about a six-hour slog to get through it 16



### all, but it was easy to do, Lucy. And those 75 17



### question points point out where you ne ed to be, 18



### so it was well laid out. 19



### We made this document available 20



### immediately to our members. We've had a 21



### telephone conversation to begin with on it a 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 15



### week ago today, I believe, was the first, and 1



### we had a second conference call last Monday to 2



### see how we were going to organize ourselves to 3



### get going. And to DOE's credit and 4



### particularly John, thank you for giving us the 5



### extra days that allowed people to get some 6



### materials turned in. 7



### Something I think you might find 8



### interesting about the scope of wh ere you are, 9



### and I'm concerned about it, not from what we're 10



### going to review but just the work that's there, 11



### the economy impacted the ceiling fan industry 12



### like it did everybody else, simply because 13



### we're tied to the building industry. And a 14



### number of our companies have seen, in quotes, 15



### downsizing or rightsizing, depending on how you 16



### want to evaluate that. And engineers are part 17



### of that, and those are the people who are going 18



### to be doing the bulk of the work on these kinds 19



### of things. 20



### So our ability to, you know, nobody 21



### is sitting around waiting for someone to give 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 16



### you something new to do. But we may need more 1



### time than we've been given. I don't think we 2



### know that yet. We've really just been there. 3



### I've not been able to work with these folks at 4



### all because I was pre- organized to be in 5



### Washington since Tuesday on other matters and, 6



### happily, Friday worked well for us. 7



### But one of the things that I have 8



### wondered about, and I think there's different 9



### opinion, even within the industry, but if it's 10



### as large a document and activity as it is, 11



### maybe some thought should be given to breaking 12



### it into two parts: one light kits and one 13



### ceiling -- the fans themselves. And we can 14



### then get into better depth, and I think the 15



### deeper we're all able to go on these things the 16



### better decisions everybody is going to make and 17



### better outcomes that we'll have. 18



### On the other hand of that argument 19



### is the light kit is part of what we're talking 20



### about, and maybe it's not separable and we 21



### don't know that yet. But I would ask you to 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 17



### think about that, please. 1



### Other comments we would make, for 2



### openers, is we would ask everybody to remember 3



### that, of all the appliances, we think the 4



### ceiling fan was designed and built to be an 5



### energy - efficient product, and it is. And the 6



### more we can get ceiling fans used, the more 7



### energy we're going to save in the wintertime on 8



### heating with furnaces and air conditioning in 9



### the summer. And that's a reality. 10



### We would point out to you there are 11



### some state requirements that are there, 12



### especially i n California. And the degree of 13



### any changes we make that can be tied to that, 14



### to the point we're not developing this party 15



### says do this with fans and that party says do 16



### that with fans, can we coordinate that kind of 17



### thing, which will be better for everybody and 18



### will keep costs lower. 19



### We would like to recommend that you 20



### use this rulemaking to eliminate power limiters 21



### from self- regulating products. We've been 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 18



### beating at you for a couple of years about 1



### that, and this is an opportunity. So don't 2



### disappoint me. 3



### And, lastly, cost- benefit analysis 4



### has really got to be there on this one. And 5



### we'll watch that like a hawk for you, but we 6



### think everybody needs to do that because what 7



### nobody wants to do is make the fan so expensive 8



### that the guy at the economic bottom end of the 9



### ladder can't afford them. And there's people 10



### who don't have air conditioners, so they're 11



### just going to suffer, period. But then you 12



### have another group of people who, if the fan 13



### starts to get so expensive, well, we'll just 14



### forget about that and we'll just run the air 15



### conditioner. 16



### So those are

-- I've said that in 17



### greater depth in the writing, but, for the sake 18



### of everybody's comments and time, I think those 19



### are the points. Our industry is interested in 20



### working with you on this proje ct, as we have 21



### everything else. And we'll be your good 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 19



### partner. I'll make sure I listen to my people 1



### because I'm not smart enough on these issues to 2



### say things on my own. And when I get out of 3



### line, I'll look to Terry McGowan, who you all 4



### know as a strong player and an engineer of 5



### significant reputation who will be very helpful 6



### to us all. Thank you. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Nathan, 8



### did you want to go next? 9



### MR. FRAMPTON: Good morning. Nathan 10



### Frampton with Fanimation. I'll keep my 11



### comments brief . I think I can speak for all 12



### manufacturers in this room that our mission in 13



### life is to reduce worldwide energy consumption. 14



### Our products, by their very nature, reduce 15



### energy consumption. We are highly concerned 16



### that any regs will not only increase prod uct 17



### costs, but they'll reduce the product's 18



### likeability. And those both, in turn, will 19



### decrease ceiling fan use. And reducing ceiling 20



### fan usage will increase energy consumption, in 21



### our opinion. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 20



### To tag on to what Dick said, not 1



### only are ceiling fans energy efficient, it's 2



### very important to understand that they're an 3



### energy -saving device. They're one of the only 4



### appliances that you can purchase that actually 5



### save s energy. 6



### I think the important question that 7



### we all have to ask ourselves is, is what w e're 8



### doing here going to increase or decrease energy 9



### consumption? That's the important question. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 11



### Other comments here at the outset? Is it 12



### David? 13



### MR. TURNER: Yes. David Turner, 14



### Hunter Fan. Just to , you know, piggyback a lot 15



### on what Nathan said is, you know, we definitely 16



### want to work with and help the DOE, and we're 17



### on the same page as far as, you know, saving or 18



### using less energy. But if the goal of this is 19



### to potentially regulate and add cost to make 20



### fans more e fficient when they are inherently 21



### already there and saving energy, we really need 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 21



### to look at that and make sure we make the right 1



### decisions. 2



### And as Dick said, you know, 3



### economically feasible was mentioned a few times 4



### in the framework document, and that's got to be 5



### really, that's got to be on the forefront of 6



### this. And, you know, as far as the path of 7



### least energy-using devices in your homes, you 8



### know, fans fall at the low end of that. And 9



### they're able to, you know, when you're using a 10



### ceiling fan, you 're able to turn those devices 11



### off that are using more energy. 12



### But, again, we're here to help, and 13



### Hunter, as all manufacturers are, dedicated to 14



### the continuous improvement of efficiency over 15



### the long run. So we're all trying to make fans 16



### more efficient, and we think, as an industry, 17



### we do that on our own. So we think the 18



### important thing here would be to further 19



### educate the end consumer on the energy savings 20



### benefits of fans. So, you know, when you're 21



### using your ceiling fan, you can set your AC to 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 22



### a higher temperature so that it will shut off 1



### in warmer times. 2



### So I think, you know, our direction 3



### here would definitely be towards education 4



### versus more regulation. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 6



### Additional comments? Nothing additional. 7



### Okay. Oh, Dick, one more thing. 8



### MR. UPTON: What's selling ceiling 9



### fans today is, first, cost; second is cost; and 10



### third is cost. And that's real, that's not 11



### made up. And if we get beyond that, then we 12



### start to have a cost- benefit challenge. Thank 13



### you. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Now 15



### we're going to move into the detailed content 16



### in your slide packet, and we're going to hear 17



### first from Lucy DeButts. 18



### MS. DEBUTTS: All right. To begin, 19



### I'd like to start with a little history 20



### regarding the DOE authorit y for ceiling fans 21



### and ceiling fan light kits. And as you can 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 23



### see, in 2005, EPACT amended the EPCA and added 1



### ceiling fans and ceiling fan light kits to the 2



### list of DOE's covered product. 3



### On October 18th of 2005, DOE 4



### codified prescribed

- by

- Congress design 5



### standards for ceiling fans and energy 6



### efficiency standards for ceiling fans and 7



### ceiling fan light kits for medium screw

- based 8



### sockets and the pin -based sockets. The 9



### following year, on December the 8th, DOE 10



### published a test procedure for ceiling fans and 11



### ceiling fan light kits as a part of the en 12



### masse rule. 13



### And, finally, on January 11th of 14



### 2007, DOE published a technical amendment which 15



### codified energy efficiency standards for the 16



### third product class. That includes everything 17



### which is not included in the first two product 18



### classes for ceiling fan light kits. 19



### So this brings me to our meeting 20



### today. We're initiating the energy 21



### conservation standards for the rulemaking 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 24



### pursuant to the authority for ceiling fans and 1



### ceiling fan light kits. I also wou ld like to 2



### mention that DOE is obligated to review the 3



### test procedure under E I SA requirements. 4



### I also would like to go into the 5



### rulemaking schedule. And I understand that -- 6



### we hear you loud and clear, you know, your 7



### concern about the schedules. Thes e are the 8



### projected dates which we're listing here. They 9



### will depend on the comments we receive from the 10



### industry. They will depend on the analysis 11



### that we do. 12



### So what we are doing today is we're 13



### having a public meeting to discuss the 14



### framework documen t that was published. All the 15



### documents that we're publishing are available 16



### on the web on DOE ’s website, so the framework 17



### is available, the presentation slides were 18



### posted a couple of days ago. We will put the 19



### transcript up on the web as soon as we can, 20



### hopefully in a couple of days, if not, you 21



### know, if not faster, but it all depends. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 25



### So the proposed dates are that the 1



### test procedure and the Notice of Proposed 2



### Rulemaking are projected to come out in the 3



### fourth quarter of this year. We will wait for 4



### yo ur remarks and comments, and we will publish 5



### these preliminary analyses hopefully in the 6



### first quarter of 2014. The test procedure 7



### final rule will follow in the second quarter of 8



### 2014. The NOPR for standards will come out in 9



### the first quarter of 2012, an d the standards 10



### final rule is projected to come out in the 11



### first quarter of 2016. Following that, three 12



### years later, the compliance date will be in 13



### place, which is the first quarter of 2019. 14



### Now, again -- yes? 15



### MR. UPTON: Lucy, are we talking 16



### about government quarters or calendar year 17



### quarters? 18



### MS. DEBUTTS: It's a calendar year 19



### quarter. I'm sorry. No, it's a fiscal year 20



### quarters. 21



### MR. UPTON: Okay. So when we say 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 26



### first quarter of 2014, you're saying October 1 1



### of this year? 2



### MS. DEBUTTS: Right. Well, it 3



### starts, yes. Again, this all depends on the 4



### remarks we get from you. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's get used to 6



### using the microphone, but your comments are 7



### adequate to clarify the calendar, I think, so 8



### keep going. 9



### MS. DEBUTTS: Okay. All ri ght. 10



### Let's see. I also would like to talk about the 11



### factors that we're using while we're doing the 12



### analyses. And, again, we hear you loud and 13



### clear. Economic times are tough right now. We 14



### understand that part. And we are going to do, 15



### we're going to e valuate all seven factors that 16



### are listed on the slide. Whatever we do with 17



### the rulemaking, we are committed to not 18



### lessening the utility of your product. So I 19



### just want to bring that up. 20



### We will go into each factor later in 21



### the presentation. We will discuss what steps 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 27



### are going to be done while we're doing the 1



### analyses. We will do the manufacturer 2



### interviews, in addition to the comments we 3



### receive from you. Any claims or ideas you 4



### have, if you have data to substantiate that, 5



### like ceiling fan is the energy - efficient 6



### product, if there are any data that will help 7



### us to determine what you're basing it on, that 8



### would be helpful. So please submit that data 9



### to us. 10



### So that brings me to the scope of 11



### coverage for ceiling fan and ceiling fans 12



### today. The f ramework document has more details 13



### on that, so feel free to take your time and 14



### review it. I know some of you may have time 15



### already, some haven't. But it's on the web. 16



### What DOE is going to do is EPCA 17



### defined the ceiling fans as a non

- portable 18



### device that is suspended from the ceiling for 19



### circulating air via rotational fan blades. We 20



### are considering interpreting the ceiling fan to 21



### incorporate hugger fans. Also, DOE is 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 28



### considering establishing a separate product 1



### class for highly- decorative fans for which air 2



### movement performance is a secondary feature, 3



### which will help everyone to distinguish between 4



### the regular ceiling fans and the highly5



### decorative ones. 6



### So we're also considering including 7



### in this rulemaking the fans that do not have 8



### external blades b ut produce air flow. And the 9



### last but not least, the statutor il y- required 10



### prescribed standards will remain in place. 11



### To continue the overview, so on this 12



### slide we have the ceiling fans. We grouped 13



### this -- these are not the product classes yet. 14



### What we did, we grouped the market information 15



### we found by the ceiling fan types and their 16



### functionality and, of course, the market 17



### description. This may or may not become 18



### product classes. We would like to get your 19



### input on that. That's why we're listing them 20



### in this order and making sure that the table is 21



### summarizing it correctly. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 29



### And, again, as I stated, the 1



### definitions that we are proposing are on this 2



### slide. We want to include hugger fans, highly3



### decorative fans, outdoor fans, revise their 4



### definitions. And, also, DOE will consider 5



### regulatory definitions of standard fans and 6



### multi -mount fans. More information is 7



### available in the framework. 8



### So right now I'd like to

-- the list 9



### of items that's listed here, we can go one by 10



### one and get your comments on each single item 11



### number, whoever would like to start first. 12



### MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 13



### I just want to, I think, correct what you said 14



### about the schedule. It should be, it's 15



### calendar, not government fiscal year, if I 16



### interpret the framework in 2013 so it's 17



### calendar year, not fiscal. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks 19



### for that. And, Terry, if you're going to be 20



### commenting, why don't you move up here to the 21



### table next to a microphone? Okay. We have now 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 30



### the, you can see item number one. You want to 1



### queue that up for us? 2



### MS. DEBUTTS: Yes, sure. So DOE 3



### seeks comments on this proposed 4



### reinterpretation of the ceiling fan definition. 5

6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on the 7



### definition. Joanna? 8



### MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. We 9



### support the proposed reinterpretation to 10



### include hugger fans in the ceiling fan 11



### definition. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other 13



### comments? Dick? 14



### MR. UPTON: Yes, we question it. 15



### That's all we can do. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. At this point. 17



### MR. UPTON: Yes. We don't have 18



### enough time, but I've had some comments from 19



### our people that this is one where we could 20



### really see huge increase in costs to the point 21



### it's not a usable product. Thank you. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 31



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Final 1



### comments? We're going to keep moving 2



### expediti ously here, gentlemen, ladies. On to 3



### number two. 4



### MS. DEBUTTS: Okay. Item number 5



### two, DOE seeks comments on whether ceiling fans 6



### without external blades should be included in 7



### the rulemaking if they meet the definition of a 8



### ceiling fan. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: No comments at this 10



### time. Okay. 11



### MS. DEBUTTS: Okay. Item number 12



### three, DOE seeks comments on its proposed 13



### approach in developing definitions for the four 14



### types of ceiling fans, the vertical distance 15



### that is used to characterize whether a fan can 16



### safely be used in a room with low ceiling 17



### heights, and any other typical characteristics 18



### used to determine the different types of 19



### ceiling fans currently on the market. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: So, David, do you 21



### want to go? David? 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 32



### MR. TURNER: Our question on t his or 1



### comment was the definition of using the 2



### distance from the ceiling, and it says average 3



### or the average distance. And we needed more 4



### clarification. Would huggers be allowed to be 5



### a max distance? Our comment would be that you 6



### would turn the phrase from average to maximum, 7



### as far as allowable distance for a hugger. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: That's helpful. 9



### Okay. 10



### MR. TURNER: It was a little 11



### unclear, the definition. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 13



### comments? And especially the four types that 14



### are listed there on the preceding slide, 14, 15



### any additional thoughts on the differentiation 16



### or lack thereof that is there? Okay. 17



### MS. DEBUTTS: Last item on this 18



### slide, item number four. So we are seeking 19



### comments on our proposed definition of highly

20



### decorative ceiling fans. 21



### MR. FRAMPTON: Nathan Frampton with 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 33



### Fanimation. It's our suggestion that we either 1



### raise the RPM higher or define a highly2



### decorative ceiling fan as a blade ratio from 3



### blade width to blade length. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, okay. So you'll 5



### put that in writing in detail, correct? 6



### MR. FRAMPTON: Yes. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Because there was 8



### more there than you just

-- that was helpful, 9



### your comment. Dick? 10



### MR. UPTON: When it was not 11



### included, it was under the presumption or 12



### exempt, or whate ver we wanted to say the first 13



### time, that it was a fan that didn't have any 14



### criteria for moving air because it was 15



### decorative. Do I recall that the document 16



### currently says considering 50 watts as a max, 17



### Lucy? 18



### MS. DEBUTTS: RPM. 19



### MR. UPTON: Most peop le's heart rate 20



### is faster than 50. And if you're going to have 21



### any ability to move the fan, decorative or not, 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 34



### it's got to have the ability to move, and 50 is 1



### not going to get the job done. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, of course, 3



### these comments and offering the specifics -- 4



### MR. UPTON: We've got to be much 5



### more broad and more detailed. We will 6



### understand. We're just not there yet. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So I'm going 9



### to go back to a couple of these. I realize 10



### that you may not have comments, but maybe you 11



### can help us understand. How do you distinguish 12



### now? How do you determine what you're going to 13



### put on a box now? If you put hugger fan on a 14



### box, what does that mean to you now? 15



### MR. TARR: This is Jeremy Tarr with 16



### Hunter Fan. Quite simply, a hugger fan today 17



### is a fixed, the blades are a fixed distance 18



### from the ceiling. They cannot be adjusted ; 19



### that can vary. It is not adjustable by means 20



### of a down rod. It hugs the ceiling. 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's what we're 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 35



### tryin g to get at, right? I think, from the 1



### Department's perspective, we pulled a bunch of 2



### literature off the websites and we were looking 3



### at different things. So we're going to have to 4



### have a way of uniformly defining across the 5



### board, and what we're understanding is that it 6



### may be done differently or may be implemented 7



### differently or slightly differently currently. 8



### So we're trying to understand what do you do 9



### today and how can we uniformly apply that in a 10



### regulatory scheme, if needed. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy? 12



### MR. TARR: At the risk of sounding a 13



### little callous, I think we're over- thinking it. 14



### It is, quite simply, a fan that is at a fixed 15



### distance from the ceiling. It doesn't matter 16



### if you hang it on a 20-foot ceiling or an 8- 17



### foot ceiling, the blades will be X distance 18



### from the ceiling. They cannot be adjusted. It 19



### is low profile to the ceiling. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dick? 21



### MR. UPTON: Ashley, are you asking 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 36



### us , can we help you with the definition? 1



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 2



### MR. UPTON: Yes. 3



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I'm just 4



### trying to understand. I mean, I did a good 5



### deal of looking at it. And you're right, some 6



### of them are a fixed distance; but some of them 7



### are a fixed distance pretty far away, and they 8



### still have that label on it. So I think we're 9



### jus t trying to understand, you know, what is 10



### that, where is that threshold, is there a 11



### threshold? 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dick? 13



### MR. UPTON: One of the things I 14



### think we can give you some comfort level on is 15



### we're going to work on this as an industry. 16



### We've already agreed that we'll do that, and 17



### ALA will coordinate it. And we can help you on 18



### that side of it, Ashley, on the basis of what I 19



### hear, what I think I hear you saying is can we 20



### get together to give you a singular or close to 21



### a singular definition to the point you can get 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 37



### your arms around one thing rather than a 1



### multiplicity of items. 2



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, I will 3



### go a step further, and when you say a fixed, 4



### fixed is an adjective that means a lot of 5



### different things to a lot of different people , 6



### or can. So that's why I asked you, well, what 7



### is that distance? And while I can appreciate 8



### keeping it simple, at the same time if your 9



### definition of fixed is different than the 10



### Department's definition of fixed, when you get 11



### questions, we have an issue, r ight? And the 12



### last thing you want to do is think your 13



### definition of fixed may put you into a 14



### different bucket than we think you should be. 15



### So that's where it becomes important to have 16



### discrete defining characteristics, so we were 17



### just trying to understand, well, what is really 18



### done today, right? 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dick, go ahead. 20



### MR. UPTON: Yes. I think if we 21



### continue as we are and working together, we'll 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 38



### submit some things to you and you can finally 1



### say, no, that's enough yet, give me something 2



### more. And when we get there, then we'll have a 3



### closure, but we can help you with that a lot. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Nathan? 5



### MR. FRAMPTON: Fanimation agrees 6



### with Hunter. Maybe a different way to say it 7



### is a hugger fan is a fan where you cannot 8



### chang e the distance of the blades to the 9



### ceiling. So instead of saying fixed, you can't 10



### change the distance -- 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky? 12



### MR. CYMBALSKY: So the way I 13



### understand it then, you can change the 14



### configuration of your box from being horizontal 15



### to a big vertical box, and that's a fixed 16



### distance, but the distance is three feet from 17



### the ceiling and it's still fixed. So you would 18



### consider that a hugger fan under what you just 19



### said? 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: That gets to the 21



### issue, doesn't it? 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 39



### MR. CY MBALSKY: Yes, I think that is 1



### the issue. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for raising 3



### the issue, by the way. It's helpful. 4



### MR. CYMBALSKY: I'm just thinking, 5



### if you say fixed equals 12 inches, then we have 6



### a different definition than fixed equals the 7



### ability of not to move the distance. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: I noticed that 9



### Christian Taber joining us via the web has a 10



### question or comment. Christian, speak loudly, 11



### please. You're not coming through yet. And, 12



### Christian, identify yourself when you do come 13



### through. You may still be on mute. Christian, 14



### we can't hear you. No, he's not coming 15



### through. Christian, we'll give you a moment. 16



### We'll try you again later. 17



### Additional comments on this? Eric? 18



### MR. STAS: On the highly- decorative 19



### fans, I just wanted to ask a question or throw 20



### out whether, instead of it just being a blade 21



### to width ratio or the RPMs, maybe it could be 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 40



### both. You could help us identify when it would 1



### be appropriate to be highly decorative under 2



### both of those characteristics. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Christian, do 4



### you want to try again? We're not getting any 5



### audio from you, so sorry about that. Okay. Do 6



### you know whether our system is working? His 7



### phone is not working we think. Okay. 8



### So then let's proceed. 9



### MS. DEBUTTS: Okay. So that b rings 10



### us to

-- it's not working. So that brings us 11



### to the scope of coverage for the ceiling fan 12



### light kits. And, basically, ceiling fan light 13



### kits are either built into or designed to be 14



### attached to the ceiling fan and the y’re covered 15



### product s. They're integral and attachable. So 16



### if you have any comments on this, please let us 17



### know. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: There's no comment 19



### box, but the Department is requesting comment, 20



### should there be any. None at this time. 21



### MS. DEBUTTS: Okay. Well, then that 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 41



### concludes the scope, and Colleen Kantner will 1



### be presenting the test procedure and metrics 2



### part. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 4



### DR . KANTNER: Hi. I'm Colleen 5



### Kantner, and I'm with Lawrence Berkeley 6



### National Lab. As Lucy mentioned earlier, DOE 7



### will be conducting test procedure rulemakings 8



### for ceiling fans and ceiling fan light kits. 9



### And an important first step in the test 10



### procedure rulemaking is to first review any 11



### existing industry or governmental test 12



### procedures. And the purpose of the test 13



### procedure is to clarify for manufacturers how 14



### to certify compliance with applicable energy 15



### conservation standards and how to make 16



### representations of the energy efficiency. 17



### So first let's look at test 18



### procedures for ceiling fans. The current DOE 19



### test procedure is version 1.1 of the ENERGY 20



### STAR test procedure with a few minor 21



### modifications for power measurement, sensors, 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 42



### and sensor software. 1



### There are a couple of other relevant 2



### test procedures. There is the updated ENERGY 3



### STAR test procedure. This is version 1.2. And 4



### chan ges from the DOE test procedure include an 5



### increased allowable tolerance for the velocity 6



### sensor accuracy, also lowered room temperature 7



### and increased fan warm

- up time. 8



### The Canadians also have a test 9



### procedure, and differences between the Canadian 10



### test procedure and DOE's test procedure include 11



### a test setup that allows for testing of hugger 12



### fans. The Canadians also have a sampling plan, 13



### as well as standby power measurement in their 14



### test procedure. 15



### So now let's get into some key 16



### issues for the test pr ocedure for ceiling fans. 17



### In order to assess the test procedure, DOE 18



### conducted some initial testing of a few 19



### conventional ceiling fans and observed that the 20



### average air velocity could vary significantly, 21



### depending on the sensor arm position. So for a 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 43



### giv en sensor, if it rotated 90 degrees, you 1



### might see a difference in the average air 2



### velocity of a factor of two or three. And 3



### given the symmetry of the test setup, this 4



### suggested that there might be some potential 5



### issue with the accuracy of the velocity 6



### sensors. 7



### DOE also observed that sometimes the 8



### measured RPM for a ceiling fan was not 9



### consistent with the RPM that might be listed in 10



### the owner's manual or online. And since the 11



### RPM just reflects the motor speed for ceiling 12



### fans, this suggested that perhaps there was 13



### some difference from one ceiling fan to another 14



### within a given model. And so DOE is seeking 15



### feedback on whether representations of RPM are 16



### based on test procedure values and whether DOE 17



### should consider a larger sample size to 18



### determine ceiling fan rating. 19



### So now we have a couple of comments. 20



### We're breaking down the key issues, instead of 21



### going all through them once and ask ing for 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 44



### comment at the end. 1



### So the first item, item seven, is 2



### DOE requests comments on the accuracy tolerance 3



### of the velocity sensors for either the current 4



### DOE or current ENERGY STAR test procedures and 5



### potential sources of inaccuracy for low

- speed 6



### airflow measurements. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: We'll start with that 8



### one first. Comments on these, David? 9



### MR. TURNER: David Turner. When you 10



### say a factor of two, that there was 11



### variability, factor of two cubic feet per 12



### minute or, I mean, was it meaning it was double 13



### or -- 14



### DR . KANTNER: Yes, from double to 15



### triple the airflow. 16



### MR. WALKER: Bill Walker, Hunter 17



### Fan. Was that at low speed? 18



### DR . KANTNER: That was at low speed, 19



### yes. 20



### MR. WALKER: Okay. 21



### DR . KANTNER: There was some 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 45



### variability at higher speeds but not as much as 1



### at low speed. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on seven 3



### about the accuracy tolerance of the veloc ity 4



### sensors and other potential sources of 5



### inaccuracy? Okay. On to the second one. 6



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. DOE also 7



### requests comment on the potential performance 8



### variability between ceiling fans for a specific 9



### fan model and the possibility of requiring a 10



### sample of ceiling fans to certify a model. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Nathan? 12



### MR. FRAMPTON: Just a general 13



### comment. Nathan Frampton with Fanimation. We 14



### think that the test procedure could be 15



### improved. However, we think we need, we need a 16



### lot of time, we need a lot more time to 17



### research what that procedure should actually 18



### be. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Has the industry 20



### association, has American Lighting Association 21



### or some group like that undertaken to do its 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 46



### own test procedure stuff in the past? 1



### MR. FRAMPTON: Not to my knowledge. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3



### MR. UPTON: American Lighting 4



### Association does not do any test procedures. 5



### We look to UL or CSA or ETL, but UL and CSA set 6



### standards for us. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you, 8



### Dick. Okay. Let's proceed. Ashley has got 9



### another question. 10



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, Nathan, 11



### the test procedure you're currently using, are 12



### you using the DOE test procedure for ENERGY 13



### STAR, using the ENERGY STAR test procedure, or 14



### are you using the CSA test procedure? Are we 15



### using a combination of all three? Are there 16



### aspects of one that are better than the others? 17



### I mean, they're all basically the same but 18



### with slight differences here and there, at 19



### least from what we've found so far. And so 20



### these are questions that we've gotten from test 21



### labs that are either running tests for the 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 47



### ENERGY STAR program. We've done testing of 1



### ceiling fans on the market at third -party labs, 2



### and these are issues we found when we went into 3



### lab at third

- party labs. 4



### We're open and we welcome your 5



### comments. You know, some type of discussion 6



### would be helpful at the outset, as well as 7



### long

- term. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Nathan? 9



### MR. FRAMPTON: And I guess my 10



### response is we're open, as well. We just need, 11



### we need a lot more time because it's going to 12



### tak e time and resources for us to develop what 13



### we think would be an adequate test. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: I'm thinking that 15



### you've not done this in the past. And there's 16



### a capacity issue here, that is having that 17



### capacity built up. Dick? 18



### MR. UPTON: The American Lighting 19



### Association has worked very vigorously, to the 20



### point there's times I have to lower my voice to 21



### make sure they understand. But UL and CSA now 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 48



### work very closely on harmonizing their lighting 1



### standards, and that's critical for us. We're 2



### not aware that anybody has beat us yet or beat 3



### us over the head to get a ceiling fan 4



### harmonized standard, but if that's what we 5



### need, why, we'll push to make that kind of 6



### thing happen and maybe a combination of us 7



### doing it. 8



### But to my knowledge, as you said, 9



### As hley, the majority of those things are pretty 10



### close at this point. If we can get them a bit 11



### more finite, let us see what we can find out 12



### about that. That's critical for us, as you can 13



### imagine, with business going both ways across 14



### the border. With our Canadian members selling 15



### in the United States and U.S. people selling 16



### the other way around, we're not interested in 17



### double testing by any stretch of the 18



### imagination. So we should be able to get 19



### helpful definitions for you. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley, go ahead. 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think what you're 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 49



### hearing from the Department is that the statute 1



### requires us to look into it, and we will sit 2



### down and work with you guys on coming up with a 3



### method. These are the issues we've seen at the 4



### outset. I would have envi sioned that you were 5



### seeing some of these, too, at least by the 6



### amount of questions I'm getting for testing 7



### that's being done to qualify your ceiling fans 8



### to ENERGY STAR right now. So DOE is in charge 9



### of the test procedures for ENERGY STAR, as 10



### well, so we work very closely with EPA, you 11



### know, on the program. So I'm hoping that we 12



### can work together and not, you know, shift this 13



### off to another

-- we will work with them, as 14



### well, but all of us together. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: So just to be 16



### obvious, no, explicit, as we try to be here

-- 17



### just one moment. Ashley's earlier comment was, 18



### gee, what about this is working? What's good 19



### for you? What's not working for you? What are 20



### the details surrounding these different testing 21



### methods? And that would be the sweet spot, 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 50



### that would be the descriptive stuff that you 1



### want to put in your comments and work with the 2



### Department and others, right? Just to be 3



### clear. 4



### Julia Farber joining us online 5



### wishes to comment. Julia, go right ahead. 6



### MS. FARBER: Can you hear me? 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we can. 8



### MS. FARBER: Okay, perfect. Sorry. 9



### Julia Farber from Underwriters Laboratories. 10



### I've been listening to the conversation, and I 11



### just wanted to let you guys know that I'm with 12



### government affairs, and we'll do what we can to 13



### see if we can look into a little bit more 14



### details about the questions that were just 15



### raised. And we'd also be open to working with 16



### you guys on that with the knowledge that we 17



### have about the current test procedures, but the 18



### test procedures, I have a feeling, have more to 19



### do with safety right now. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 21



### MS. FARBER: So I will, I guess 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 51



### we'll look into that and get back to you. And 1



### if we have somewhere to add into comment, we 2



### will definitely do so. In the meantime, we're 3



### really looking to you guys to look to us as 4



### really your -- 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay, 6



### good. Bill? 7



### MR. WALKER: Bill Walker, Hunter 8



### Fan. Just to address the accuracy issues and a 9



### standardized test. Several years ago, there 10



### were only three test labs. It was ours and 11



### Intertek, and you all had one in Taiwan or 12



### overseas. At that time, what we did, we had a 13



### test fan that we would send around to each lab 14



### and make sure that each lab's results would 15



### correlate. I think that should happen again. 16



### We need to know that, from lab to lab, that, 17



### you know, if one lab measures 5,000 CFM, every 18



### lab should measure within some variation of 19



### that. And I think that takes out the problems 20



### associated with the tolerance and the velocity 21



### sensors, especially at low speeds. You know, 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 52



### so if everybody is within five percent, ten 1



### percent, whatever that number is, then it 2



### should be okay. However, somebody has got to 3



### regulate that whole round robin testing 4



### procedure. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. Dick? 6



### MR. UPTON: Ashley, I totally agree 7



### with you that we want to just all partner 8



### together on this thing because working with UL, 9



### and we've got them on the line, we should be 10



### able to make that happen. And we can put CSA 11



### in the room at the same time, and we'll just 12



### pull that together quickly. 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. Let's 14



### move on. 15



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. And here we 16



### have a few more issues for the test procedure. 17



### First of all, how should hugger fans be 18



### tested? And DOE is investigating potential 19



### methods of testing, including the use of an 20



### artificial ceiling. Another potential issue is 21



### how to test multi-mount fans. These are fans 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 53



### that can be either mounted in the hugger 1



### configuration or in a standard configuration. 2



### And DOE is not currently aware of any data on 3



### how frequently they are in one configuration 4



### versus the other, so we're currently 5



### considering testing , looking at fans in the 6



### hugger fan configuration to provide a 7



### conservative estimate of airflow efficiency. 8



### We're also aware that there are some 9



### ceiling fans that have non -flat or unusually10



### shaped blades, and the current test procedure 11



### might be a bit ambiguous. It refers to the 12



### mid -point of the blade tip, and that might be a 13



### little bit ambiguous. And DOE is considering 14



### investigating appropriate configurations and 15



### methodologies, as well as clarifying the 16



### language in the test procedure. 17



### Another change to the test procedure 18



### that DOE is considering is that, currently, 19



### ceiling fans must be tested in a test cylinder 20



### which is exactly eight inches larger in 21



### diameter than the blade span of the fan being 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 54



### tested, and DOE is considering whether or not 1



### it can relax that restriction. A few 2



### possibilities to consider are, one, we could 3



### allow testing within a tolerance of the current 4



### eight -inch requirement, or we could also 5



### develop a correlatio n between blade span and 6



### cylinder size. Again, this is with the idea of 7



### relaxing that restriction and reducing the 8



### burden on manufacturers to buy new test 9



### cylinders when you test an unusual fan size. 10



### And we have a couple of comments. 11



### Item number 9, DOE requests comments on its 12



### proposal to investigate methodologies, 13



### including the use of an artificial ceiling to 14



### enable hugger fans to be tested. 15



### MR. TURNER: David Turner with 16



### Hunter Fan. On the hugger comment, we 17



### recommend that you would adopt the Canadian 18



### method with a faux ceiling being used, the 19



### dimensions of which can be, you know, 20



### discussed, but I think right now it's a five

21



### by

- five faux ceiling. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 55



### And then our comment on multi- mount 1



### fans being tested in the hugger configuration, 2



### we would argue against that because a large 3



### amount of the fans sold right now at retail are 4



### able to mount in a hugger configuration or a 5



### low

- profile mount where you either remove the 6



### down rod or use a shorter down rod. And I 7



### think you would be falsely misleading because 8



### you're going to reduce the airflow by shrinking 9



### it up to the ceiling. So we would say you test 10



### at the down rod configuration that it's packed 11



### in with, and then, if necessary, on the CFM 12



### label on the box, you know, note that it was 13



### tested in a down rod co nfiguration. I think 14



### that's it. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: That's it? Okay. 16



### Please look at the comment box, item 9, item 17



### 10, and item 12. Additional comments on these? 18



### You didn't really set up -- 19



### DR . KANTNER: We didn't talk about 20



### item 12. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 56



### DR . KANTNER: Item 12 is DOE 1



### requests information on the effects of testing 2



### ceiling fans in cylinders with diameters other 3



### than eight inches wider than the blade span and 4



### any comments on potential modification to the 5



### test procedure. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bill? 7



### MR. WALKER: Bill with Hunter Fan. 8



### We have our own test lab, so I just did a 9



### couple of tests before coming here with a 10



### cylinder, with a larger cylinder, and with no 11



### cylinder at all. And the variance from a 12



### ceiling fan, a 52 -inch ceiling fan tested with 13



### a 60-inch cylinder, which is to spec, versus 14



### tested with no cylinder at all at high speed, 15



### that the CFM varied less than one percent. 16



### DR. KANTNER: Good to know. 17



### MR. WALKER: Now, that's a very 18



### small sample size, and we should take it 19



### further to a larger sample size to see. But I 20



### think definitely you could relax the -- 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: The cylinder 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 57



### requirement. 1



### MR. WALKER: Yes. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3



### MR. WALKER: But we need to test 4



### more -- 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6



### MR. WALKER: -- to verify. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And would you, 8



### that's your testing lab, correct? 9



### MR. WALKER: That's correct. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Would you speculate 11



### the other testing labs would come up with the 12



### same kind of experience? 13



### MR. WALKER: I don't see why not. I 14



### mean, our lab is to the DOE, I mean the ENERGY 15



### STAR that you see in the online ENERGY STAR 16



### manual, that's the lab. So each lab should be 17



### built to that same spec, so I don't see why 18



### they wouldn't get the same results. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna? 20



### MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just a 21



### question on how to test the multi -mount fans. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 58



### Has DOE looked into whether multi-mount fans 1



### that are kind of the more efficient models when 2



### tested in the kind of down-rod configuration 3



### also tend to be the more efficient models when 4



### tested in the hugger configuration? 5



### DR . KANTNER: DOE has not tested 6



### that yet. 7



### MS. MAUER: Do any of the 8



### manufacturers have any input on -- 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10



### DR . KANTNER: And here are a few 11



### more potential issues for the test procedure. 12



### We've noticed that some ceiling fans have 13



### multiple fan heads, and then there's a question 14



### of how we should go about trying to test those 15



### fans. And right now DOE is considering trying 16



### to test only one fan head with the other fan 17



### head motors turned off and then treating that 18



### fan head like just a standard single ceiling 19



### fan. 20



### Another potential issue is for fans 21



### where the airflow is not directed straight 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 59



### downwards. Some fans are set at an angle. And 1



### for those fans, DOE is considering a couple o f 2



### different approaches: one, adjusting the fan 3



### such that the airflow is vertical, if that's 4



### possible; two, using an adjustable mount to 5



### achieve a vertical orientation; and, three, 6



### testing without changing the orientation of the 7



### fan so some of the airflow then might miss the 8



### test cylinder, but this would provide a 9



### conservative estimate of airflow efficiency. 10



### DOE is also aware that there are 11



### some ceiling fans sold with combined heaters, 12



### and DOE tentatively plans to test with the 13



### heater switched off. 14



### Ano ther potential issue is whether 15



### or not we should be testing in the reverse 16



### direction. Most fans are currently required to 17



### be able to operate in reverse. Right now, DOE 18



### anticipates that fans are primarily used in the 19



### forward direction and that efficiency in 20



### forward and reverse are likely to be 21



### correlated, which may mean that it's not 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 60



### necessary to test in reverse. But we would 1



### welcome any comments or feedback or data that 2



### gets at this idea of whether efficiency in 3



### forward and reverse are, in fact, correlated. 4



### MR. GATTO: Dave Gatto with 5



### Westinghouse. I'm sorry, Dick. On this 6



### particular topic, I've only had a few days. I 7



### don't really have any empirical data either 8



### way. We agree that it's likely that in the 9



### reverse position, which we don't believe is a 10



### high percentage of the fan's actual use by 11



### consumers, we believe it's going to be a fairly 12



### consistent correlation, but we've done no 13



### testing at all to be able to back that up. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: That's helpful still. 15



### Thank you. Okay. So when are you going to 16



### have that data? 17



### MR. GATTO: That's a good question. 18



### We're looking into

-- again, we're still 19



### reviewing the document. It's part of why I 20



### haven't had a lot of comments here. I've only 21



### had a few days with it. But at the same time, 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 61



### we are looking at different things that we're 1



### going to need to do, along with ALA, to provide 2



### information back to the DOE. We know that 3



### there's a lot of information that you'll need. 4



### And as Dick had mentioned, we've kind of all 5



### agreed that we're going to work together t o 6



### provide as much of it as possible. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Dick? 8



### MR. UPTON: A general comment I'm 9



### hearing from everybody is reverse testing is 10



### just not necessary. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay. And also 12



### item 14, DOE requests comments on its appro ach 13



### to testing ceiling fans where the airflow is 14



### not directed vertically. Did we cover that? I 15



### don't think so. Nathan? 16



### MR. FRAMPTON: Again, our position 17



### is that we believe the test procedure could be 18



### improved. We just need a lot more time to come 19



### up with a recommendation. We also agree that 20



### testing in reverse is not necessary. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: So I believe that's 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 62



### the third time you've said a lot more time. So 1



### how much is a lot more time? A lot. The 2



### industry comments a lot. Is it three months, 3



### s ix months? 4



### MR. FRAMPTON: You know, I believe 5



### with the state of the economy and our industry, 6



### I think we need something, you know, like one 7



### to two years to test that. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So I don't 10



### think -- I mean, that's fair, although the 11



### statute requires us to finish this by December 12



### 2014. So with that being said, that's a final 13



### rule fully adopted, done. No amendments after 14



### that. So, obviously, proposals will have to be 15



### well before that, and I think our target, I 16



### can' t remember what Lucy showed at the very 17



### beginning of the slide, but our target for a 18



### proposal is this year. So we hope that, while 19



### we agree that there's going to be a lot of 20



### things that need to be fleshed out over the 21



### next year and a lot of ideas generating and 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 63



### some testing both done on the part of you guys 1



### and ourselves, we hope that we can do this, you 2



### know, start today and start to work through 3



### some of these issues, including feedback, 4



### realizing that the Department is moving forward 5



### and I'm hoping we can move forward with you 6



### guys. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Dick? 8



### MR. UPTON: That deserves a 9



### response. A week ago Monday, we got a 100

- page 10



### document for the first time. I personally am 11



### not sitting waiting for DOE or EPA or any other 12



### entity of federal government or state 13



### government to put a 100 -page document on and 14



### tell me that I've got a week and everybody 15



### that's a member of ALA has a week to respond. 16



### Now, John, to his credit, gave us more time, 17



### and I thank you again formally. But we don't 18



### know how much time this is going to take. 19



### We've just gotten it. When you hear us say 20



### it's going to take more time or a lot more 21



### time, we've only had two conference calls that 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 64



### we've been able to pull together quickly, and I 1



### think we're going to have to have some time t o 2



### be able to tell you what our response time can 3



### be. You may not like it, and you may want to 4



### tell us speed it up, and then we can review to 5



### see what we can do to speed it up. But we just 6



### need some time to get through it to the point 7



### we can give you an honest and intelligent 8



### answer, and we just don't know that yet. But 9



### if you press us to say how much time, then a 10



### response that you got from Nathan Frampton is 11



### articulate. 12



### So let's just kind of cool the jets 13



### a little bit on what the time frame is going to 14



### be. We will do our due diligence of pulling it 15



### together as best we can and as rapidly as we 16



### can. The response I personally received from 17



### the industry in coming together on a two- day 18



### announcement for a conference call, we had 18 19



### companies involved out of 18

-- excuse me. We 20



### had one not there because the key party we 21



### needed was in China. And we've got a couple of 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 65



### people who would have been and should be at 1



### this meeting, but one is in China and one has 2



### got a major industry issue for his company, he 3



### has to be where he is. 4



### But we will get back to you promptly 5



### and quickly. And I think the first thing we 6



### need to do is just tell you how long it's going 7



### to take us to get there, and I don't know that 8



### answer yet. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10



### MR. UPTON: Thank you. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Colleen, as you look 12



### at these comment boxes, is there anything you 13



### wish to call out to see if you can get any 14



### additional information, or did we cover it? 15



### DR . KANTNER: I think we might have 16



### skipped item 13 on testing ceiling fans with 17



### multiple fan heads. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I 19



### thought, too. So do we have comments on that? 20



### Joanna? 21



### MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I guess 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 66



### I'm just wondering could you have a situation 1



### where you had a ceiling fan with multiple fan 2



### heads where the individual fan heads had 3



### different efficiencies? Could you have fan 4



### heads with different motors? 5



### DR . KANTNER: Yes, that seems 6



### conceivable. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Nathan, you want to 8



### try that? 9



### MR. FRAMPTON: Yes, it's 10



### conceivable. Again, we would nee d time to 11



### figure out the best test, and we will do 12



### everything we can to figure it out as fast as 13



### we can. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, good. In 15



### Ashley's defense, she just wanted to make sure 16



### you were really clear about the deadlines 17



### they're facing. I think ever ybody understands 18



### that now. Yes, okay. Okay. Then we're going 19



### to move on. 20



### DR . KANTNER: So, previously, there 21



### was only a design standard for ceiling fans and 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 67



### no performance standard. Now that we are 1



### considering a possible -- 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: I believe we skipped 3



### one. 4



### DR . KANTNER: Oh, sorry. Here we 5



### go. Sorry about that. So there's one last 6



### issue for active mode test procedure, and this 7



### is the question of how many fan speeds we 8



### should be testing at. So the current test 9



### procedure allows for te sting at all available 10



### fan speeds, and ENERGY STAR requires 11



### certification at three fan speeds corresponding 12



### to low, medium, and high. So DOE could 13



### conceivably test at one, three, or multiple 14



### speeds, depending on how well those speeds 15



### represent the overall ceiling fan usage. 16



### And so we have a couple of comments 17



### just on this. First, DOE seeks comment on the 18



### possibility of testing at one or multiple fan 19



### speeds, and DOE seeks input on the amount of 20



### time spent at each fan speed. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Nathan? 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 68



### MR. FRAMPTON: Yes. In the short 1



### amount of time that we've had to prepare, we 2



### actually pulled via social media what fan speed 3



### consumers use. And by and large, most 4



### consumers run their fans on low and medium. 5



### Most consumers do not run their fans on high. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's 7



### helpful. Additional comments? Joanna, here. 8



### MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I think 9



### we definitely consider, definitely encourage 10



### DOE to adopt a test procedure that tests at 11



### more than one fan speed, especially to capture 12



### vari ations in motor efficiencies at different 13



### speeds. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dick? 15



### MR. UPTON: A question for you. I 16



### thought Nathan was creative in reaching out on 17



### social media to try to get a response on where 18



### is the fan operated. What's a reasonable way 19



### for industry to try to get a response on that? 20



### Because, for example, ALA has a hundred 21



### thousand people, consumers that we send a 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 69



### particular newsletter to, and we know it's read 1



### by those hundred thousand. There's a hundred 2



### thousand going out that way. 3



### We also have members who have a 4



### significant internet presence, and we could go 5



### to their customers. You know, we're talking 6



### about millions in that circumstance. But is 7



### that an acceptable research package for us 8



### going to consumers and getting consumer 9



### feedback on how you're operating your fan? 10



### MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE. 11



### I think it's great that we don't have to do it 12



### because that would be a PRA involvement with 13



### doing a survey. But, absolutely, you should 14



### get any information you can gather and enter it 15



### as a public comment and just describe how you 16



### collected the data and -- 17



### MR. UPTON: That seems reasonable? 18



### MR. CYMBALSKY: Sure. It's as 19



### reasonable as any other approach. 20



### MR. UPTON: Thank you. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: I'm wanting to make 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 70



### sure we've covered as much of this as we can, 1



### both 16 and 17. 2



### DR . KANTNER: So 17 is on how to 3



### define high, medium, and low speeds for those 4



### fans that have more than three speeds or 5



### variable speed controls. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Is there any kind of 7



### standard definitio n? No? Nathan? No comment 8



### at this time. Okay, okay. 9



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. So, thus far, 10



### we've been talking about issues for active 11



### mode, but we must also, by law, address standby 12



### and off mode. So far, DOE's impression has 13



### been that only ceiling fans with a remote 14



### control appear to have standby mode energy 15



### consumption, and that no off -mode energy 16



### consumption is anticipated, though, of course, 17



### we welcome any comments you might have on that. 18

19



### MR. TURNER: David Turner with 20



### Hunter. Are we asking wha t the standby power 21



### consumption is currently? I think that was 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 71



### item 19, but I don't know if that was jumped 1



### over or -- 2



### DR. KANTNER: Yes, we'd welcome any. 3



### MR. TURNER: So we did some quick 4



### data study before we came, and it's about 1.4 5



### watts would be your standby mode with a remote6



### controlled ceiling fan. In the off or if you 7



### turn the fan off, the standby power is 1.4 8



### watts. 9



### DR. KANTNER: Great, thank you. 10



### MR. TURNER: It's very minimal. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, David. 12



### Okay. 13



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. So, previously, 14



### there were only design standards for ceiling 15



### fans, and now that we're considering a 16



### performance standard for ceiling fans, the 17



### metric that we are considering regulating is 18



### airflow efficiency, which is in cubic feet per 19



### minute per watt. 20



### If technically feasible, DOE also 21



### plans to incorporate standby mode power, when 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 72



### applicable, for ceiling fans into an integrated 1



### metric that addresses overall energy 2



### efficiency. So one possible approach would be 3



### to combine the energy consumed in standby and 4



### active mode according to the operating hours 5



### spent at each mode in an equation similar to 6



### the one listed here. And then DOE requests 7



### feedback on its planned approach to use an 8



### integrated energy

- efficiency metric for ceiling 9



### fans. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: David, do you have 11



### something? 12



### MR. TURNER: David Turner. Given 13



### how low the standby power is, we believe the 14



### metrics probably aren't necessary. If it has 15



### to be, if it has to come to fruition, as long 16



### as the standard is clearly defined on the 17



### f ront -end and everybody knows what the 18



### variables are and are the same for every 19



### region, every manufacturer, then everybody is 20



### on equal footing and it's fine. But because of 21



### how low the standby power is, we don't believe 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 73



### the metric is necessary. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 2



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. Next, I'd like 3



### to introduce my colleague, Karina Garbesi, 4



### who's going to be talking about ceiling fan 5



### light kits. 6



### DR . GARBESI: Thanks, Colleen. 7



### Again, my name is Karina Garbesi, and I'm from 8



### Lawrence Berkeley Lab. I was going to start by 9



### talking about the current test procedures and 10



### metrics, which I'm sure most of you are 11



### familiar with, and the fact that they differ by 12



### product class. There are currently three 13



### product classes of ceiling fan light kit. 14



### Those with medium screw bases are required 15



### under the standard to be packaged with compact 16



### fluorescent lamps that meet the ENERGY STAR 17



### Version 3.0 specs or lamps that have equivalent 18



### efficacy. Therefore, the efficiency metric is 19



### lamp efficacy, in lumens per watt, and the test 20



### procedures reference the IES LM

- 66 for that. 21



### For class two products, what we're 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 74



### referring to as class two, those that have pin

1



### based sockets for externally ballasted 2



### fluorescent lamps, those light kits are 3



### required to meet the requirements of ENERGY 4



### STAR for residential light fixtures, Version 5



### 4.0; and, specifically, all sockets are 6



### required to be packaged with lamps again. 7



### Effectively, this is meaning, given 8



### the way that ENERGY STAR spec was structured, 9



### again, that the lamps have to meet a minimum 10



### efficacy requirement in lumens per watt and LM

11



### 9 is referenced on that one. There's also, 12



### there's an exception for outdoor fixtures, 13



### hence outdoor light kits, which can comply by 14



### including automatic daylight shutoff and motion 15



### sensor controls. 16



### Then what we're calling class three 17



### is all other ceiling fan light kits that don't 18



### belong to the class one and two. The standard 19



### requires that they shall not be capable of 20



### operating with lamps that total more than 190 21



### watts, and they're also required to be packaged 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 75



### with all of the sockets filled. 1



### Effectively, the metric on that then 2



### is wattage, but there are no test procedures 3



### specified. It's been interpreted as a design 4



### standard. 5



### Now, I hope I have the magic here 6



### for changing the

-- firmness is required, so I 7



### succeeded in my first hurdle. 8



### In terms of the changes that DOE is 9



### considering for test procedures and metrics for 10



### ceiling fan light kits, DOE has been 11



### considering adopting a single metric for all 12



### light kits to simplify the whole testi ng 13



### requirements, and that would simply be lamp 14



### efficacy. That would be applicable to lamps 15



### that are packaged with the devices when they're 16



### sold. 17



### There's two approaches that are 18



### being considered to utilize that metric. The 19



### first approach is, essentially, what's 20



### happening now for those class one and class two 21



### devices, which is simply that the lamps that 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 76



### are packaged have to meet a minimum efficacy 1



### requirement. The other approach is, 2



### essentially, to create a ceiling fan light kit 3



### efficacy which is the ave rage of all the lamps 4



### that are packaged, the average efficacy, which 5



### is, essentially, total lumens out divided by 6



### total watts in. 7



### The virtue of the former is it is 8



### simpler. And the virtue of the latter is that 9



### it allows somewhat more flexibility in me eting 10



### the standard and also it gives the public an 11



### indication of the actual performance of the 12



### light kit, rather than just having met a 13



### minimum standard. So those that are more 14



### efficacious are clearly labeled as such or 15



### indicated as such. 16



### The DOE test p rocedure in this case, 17



### in both cases, would reference the existing DOE 18



### test procedure for covered lamps. And if there 19



### wasn't a test procedure for lamps, they were 20



### not covered, then the DOE test procedure would 21



### reference the appropriate industry test 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 77



### proce dure, indicated at the bottom of the 1



### slide. 2



### In the current test procedures, 3



### there aren't requirements for LED lamps or 4



### integrated LED yet specified. For those with 5



### inseparable solid -state lighting, also known as 6



### integral LED lighting, DOE is consideri ng two 7



### possible approaches. One of them is the 8



### current approach that's taken by ENERGY STAR 9



### Luminaires, which I should indicate is not the 10



### ENERGY STAR fixtures requirement. This is 11



### different, the current ENERGY STAR, from the 12



### one that's referenced in the DOE standards. 13



### That requires luminaire testing using LM-79 if 14



### you are a light kit that has directional 15



### lighting. 16



### An alternative approach would be to 17



### test the light engine using LM-79. The virtue 18



### of that approach is that it puts it on a level 19



### playing field with LED lamps that might be used 20



### for class one products. 21



### As Colleen already mentioned, we're 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 78



### required to incorporate standby mode and off

1



### power mode and -- 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's pause. 3



### DR. GARBESI: Okay. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Go back one. 5



### DR

. GARBESI: Go back one? 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Because there's 7



### quite a bit of content there. Terry? 8



### MR. MCGOWAN: Terry McGowan of 9



### American Lighting Association. The problem 10



### here that we see is a major one, and that is 11



### the difference between using the efficacy of 12



### the light sources and testing for the efficacy 13



### of the luminaire. That is a very dramatic 14



### increase in cost to do testing of the luminaire 15



### itself, and, particularly with the number of 16



### luminaire types and configurations that are 17



### used with fans, this would be a tremendous 18



### difference in the complexity, as well as the 19



### cost, of testing. So we would certainly 20



### recommend that the efficacy of the light 21



### sources be the metric here, rather than the 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 79



### efficacy of the luminaire. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other 2



### comments on this? 3



### MR. GATTO: Dave Gatto with 4



### Westinghouse. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 6



### MR. GATTO: We're questioning the 7



### need for efficacy testing where the products 8



### that are already

-- so we have ENERGY STAR 3.0 9



### for included screw-based CFL. We have 4.0 for 10



### pin -base ENERGY STAR light kits, and then we 11



### have in EPAct max wattages for both candelabra 12



### and intermediate base. But we also have EI SA 13



### which is impacting the candelabra base lamp. 14



### So the efficacy standards, if you're going to 15



### test the light kit, are on top of testing that 16



### we're already doing on the light bulb, which is 17



### in line with DOE and is continuing. We're not 18



### really done with rulemaking on incandescent and 19



### housing products. 20



### So we just want to propose that 21



### adding cost and test procedures to a product 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 80



### where the only power use or primary power use 1



### is coming from a product that is already 2



### regulated may just be, just may be unnecessary. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So on the previous 5



### slide -- sorry. On the previous slide, I think 6



### what we tried to distinguish at the bottom is 7



### that, for the ceiling fan light kit test 8



### procedure, what we're considering is that if 9



### it's already a DOE- covered lamp itself, you 10



### could rely on that test procedure in testing 11



### it. In other words, you wouldn't have to 12



### retest just because it's being packaged with a 13



### ceiling fan light kit. However, we recognize 14



### that there's a variety of types of other lamps 15



### that aren't regulated by the Department that 16



### may go in to ceiling fan light kits. Those are 17



### the ones we would pick up for testing 18



### separately. You could opt to do testing 19



### separately; I don't know why you would. But 20



### you could rely, just like you can now, on the 21



### lamp data already generated for either other 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 81



### programs or federal purposes. 1



### MR. GATTO: Dave Gatto. Thank you. 2



### That clarification helps, at least in making 3



### us feel more comfortable that you're going to 4



### pick a standard that, if we're already 5



### compliant with it, we won't have to comply 6



### twice. Thank you. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dick? 8



### MR. UPTON: Some background on EPA 9



### and when they got this program done. We helped 10



### host that meeting with NEMA and argued very 11



### strongly that, we said it was decorative and 12



### non - decorative. EPA came out with direct and 13



### non -direct on their light source and concurred 14



### wit h us on the photometric testing not being 15



### done. So if government is going to be unified, 16



### I would think you'd want to follow that point. 17



### Then I'd like to raise a question. 18



### Why move away from a design standard to a 19



### performance standard? 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? 21



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I'm guessing 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 82



### it's for the wattage that you're asking about? 1



### MR. UPTON: No, I'm asking why move 2



### away from a design standard to a performance 3



### standard. 4



### MS. ARMSTRONG: The other two are 5



### already efficacy standards. Are we talking

-- 6



### MR. UPTON: Anything. 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, for light 8



### kits, we already have standards, so we're 9



### triggered to review those by the statute. For 10



### two of them, they're performance- based 11



### standards, for another one there's a wattage 12



### standa rd, depending on the socket type. For 13



### those, you know, that issue is out for comment. 14



### I mean, we're considering moving them all for 15



### ease to an efficacy-based standard, partially 16



### because it gets at your wattage limiter issue, 17



### which you've asked us to deal with. That is an 18



### easier way for us to migrate. So that is what 19



### you should think about when you're considering 20



### whether we should keep in that design standard 21



### which includes that wattage limiter or move to 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 83



### a efficacy standard. 1



### MR. TURNER: David Turne r. But as I 2



### understand what the framework document said is 3



### that the efficacy standard of the baseline 4



### would be the max efficiency of the first two 5



### classes. So it would be, it would basically 6



### have to be an efficacy greater than or equal to 7



### a CFL; is that correct? 8



### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think that's 9



### yet to be established yet. I think we are 10



### considering, the way we do our analysis is we 11



### can't backslide on those two classes, so, no, 12



### we couldn't adopt a less efficacious standard 13



### for medium screw-based and pin -based sockets. 14



### It's already established. It's a congressional 15



### standard. We can't change that one. 16



### Now, for the other ones, where we 17



### end up will largely depend on the cost- benefit 18



### analysis. And so we would look at the variety 19



### of types. It may end up something at 20



### fluorescents , it may end up somewhere 21



### different. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 84



### MR. TARR: Jeremy Tarr with Hunter 1



### Fan. Is there any concern that consumers will 2



### not have a choice of, depending on the outcome 3



### of the ruling, consumers would not have a 4



### choice of the bolt that would be going into 5



### their ceiling fan? If the efficacy standards 6



### are set at the CFL level, you're basically 7



### mandating that we include CFLs in ceiling fans; 8



### is that correct? 9



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, yes, if we can 10



### cost justify that level. 11



### MR. GATTO: Dave Gatto with 12



### Westinghouse. A concern we'd have with that is 13



### utility for the consumer, particularly with 14



### dimming. The CFL dimming is not and probably 15



### never will be at a level the consumers are 16



### happy with it. So the concern, we'd kind of go 17



### bac k to the beginning that we're now going to 18



### create a standard that would drive consumers 19



### away from using an energy- efficient product and 20



### revert back to air conditioning and a standard 21



### luminaire. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 85



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. Nathan? 1



### MR. FRAMPTON: We have the same 2



### concern, and I think it's a dangerous path to

- 3



### - for example, if we're going to require ENERGY 4



### STAR products, I think that starts to dilute 5



### ENERGY STAR. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? 7



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley. 8



### So I'm going to make a dis tinction here. The 9



### existing standards require ENERGY STAR products 10



### for medium screw-based and for pin- based. 11



### Currently, the only requirement for all other 12



### types of bases would be 190-watt requirement, 13



### right? Which we've interpreted as requiring 14



### some type of wattage- limiting device for you to 15



### meet shall not be capable of operating, right? 16



### So the Department would do a cost- benefit 17



### analysis to come out with an efficacy level. 18



### Now, that being said, we have certain 19



### restrictions like consumer utility that we have 20



### to take into account when we do that analysis. 21

22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 86



### So it's not clear

-- we wouldn't 1



### just say, you know, the standard is ENERGY STAR 2



### across the board going forward. We would come 3



### out with a variety of levels based on our 4



### analysis, based on product cl ass, based on 5



### feedback from you guys, based on our interviews 6



### with manufacturers, based on feedback from 7



### interested parties across the board. And where 8



### that may end up, we don't know at this point. 9



### It's now a matter of should we do that analysis 10



### as an ef ficacy, or should we continue the 11



### wattage? 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dick? 13



### MR. UPTON: If I understand the 14



### directive in EPAct 5, every seven years DOE 15



### will review, which is where you are. But 16



### there's nothing here that I see that says it's 17



### your responsibility to design the ceiling fan 18



### to the point there probably should only be one 19



### company involved. 20



### The marketplace, don't forget, and 21



### these people are going to work together, but 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 87



### they're going to put together different 1



### products in different ways that they think is 2



### going to be more appealing to the consumer, 3



### whether that's a less expensive product or a 4



### product that has better quality services or 5



### systems or whatever. That's why my question is 6



### why are we moving away from a design standard, 7



### and you're talking about real costs, and I 8



### think we've now hit on a space where the 9



### industry will really be working pretty hard and 10



### I would hope you'd keep an open mind to that 11



### degree that, because you need to review it, 12



### thank you for reviewing, but it doesn't mean 13



### that what you've done today is wrong. 14



### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I guess my 15



### question to you guys, just to follow -up and to 16



### answer this, is are you in favor of retaining a 17



### wattage requirement and reviewing that, rather 18



### than moving to efficacy? 19



### MR. TURNER: It all depends on what 20



### that efficacy is. Well, no, we're with you. 21



### We don't know the answer to that question 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 88



### either until the previous question is answer. 1



### If the efficacy is CFL or above, then that 2



### limits functionality, it limits consumer 3



### choice, so then, at that point , maybe wattage4



### limiter looks more enticing. But, you know, we 5



### don't like packing in the wattage- limiters, but 6



### it is what it is. So if there's another 7



### option, you know, we'll certainly look at it. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: So that was David, 9



### and now to Terry. 10



### MR. MCGOWAN: Yes. Terry McGowan. 11



### Yes, we like the design standard because it is 12



### simple and it's so easy to implement. The 13



### problem is the power limiter was the wrong 14



### design standard, and so what we would prefer to 15



### see is a socket and number standard so we would 16



### limit the wattage by the number of sockets 17



### using regulated lamps. That's a very simple 18



### alternative and can be done by inspection. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? 20



### MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional at 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 89



### this time? Okay. Well, thank you, Terry. 1



### That was helpful. Bill, do you want in here? 2



### Jeremy. 3



### MR. TARR: This is Jeremy Tarr with 4



### Hunter. I appreciate the consideration, but I 5



### think, from our side of the table, we want to 6



### make sure that that really is considered. 7



### Wattage limiters are a piece of cost, but they 8



### are a less expensive alternative to CFL bulbs. 9



### They provide more options for consumers in 10



### terms of lower product cost, in terms of 11



### quality of the light, something they're 12



### familiar with, features such as dimmability. 13



### You know, with the current bulb regulations 14



### that are in place, we think a standard of three 15



### sockets or less shouldn't require a limiter. 16



### You know, and if it's a four-socket fan, I 17



### don't think anyone has any major objections to 18



### continuing with som e sort of limit. You know, 19



### I think we're willing to work there, but we 20



### have the interest of consumers at heart. We 21



### really want to keep that functionality for the 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 90



### consumers, and we really want to improve their 1



### product experience. 2



### Limiters are an elect ronic device, 3



### and they will fail. That's a matter of 4



### concern. So, you know, anything we can do to 5



### improve the use of ceiling fans will save 6



### energy. If we can push the use of ceiling 7



### fans, the adoption of ceiling fans, that will 8



### save energy. Thanks. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: I think we've covered 10



### this one. Let's move on, and we'll get a 11



### chance when we get to the comment boxes to see 12



### if we've covered it sufficiently. Karina? 13



### DR . GARBESI: All right. As Colleen 14



### has already mentioned, we're required to 15



### addr ess standby mode and off-power mode in the 16



### test procedures. DOE, again, assumes that 17



### there is no power consumption, no standby power 18



### consumption , in off-mode, and that only light 19



### kits with remote controllers would have standby 20



### mode energy consumption. 21



### DOE is tentatively considering that 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 91



### if the fan and the light kit share a remote 1



### then the power consumption would be attributed 2



### to the fan and not the light kit. And at this 3



### point, DOE isn't aware of any ceiling fan light 4



### kits that do have, you know, standby and remote 5



### where that is not shared. 6



### So turning to the items for comment, 7



### item 23, DOE is requesting comments on its 8



### proposal to use luminous efficacy as an 9



### efficiency metric. I think maybe we discussed 10



### that one adequately. Everyone seems to be 11



### smiling and nodding. Moving on then. 12



### Item 25, DOE requests information on 13



### the existing and/or future availability of 14



### light kits with inseparable LED lighting 15



### components. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Can you comment on 17



### that one? They're everywhere else. 18



### MR. TURNER: David Turner with 19



### Hunter. Item 27 has total lamp lumens divided 20



### by total input wattage. Should it be just 21



### total lamp input wattage included in the 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 92



### definition? All right. 1



### DR . GARBESI: We're okay on that one 2



### then? Okay. Going on. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on a second. 4



### Did we get a comment on LEDs in item 25? No? 5



### Nothing there. What about 29? Did we cover 6



### that one? 7



### DR . GARBESI: Not yet. So DOE is 8



### also requesting feedback on the approach to 9



### attribute all of the standby power to fans if 10



### the remote is shared between the fan and the 11



### light kit. It looks like agreement on that 12



### one. Okay. So I'm going to -- 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dave? No, okay. 14



### DR . GARBESI: All right. Then I'm 15



### going to turn it back over to Colleen Kantner. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, let's take a 17



### break. We've made good progress. It's now 18



### almost 10:45. Let's take a 15-minute break, 19



### which means we'll resume at 11. For those of 20



### you who are not familiar with the building, you 21



### must wear a visitor's badge or some form of 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 93



### identification t hat the Department likes while 1



### you're in the building. There are restrooms at 2



### both ends of the hall. There's a coffee shop 3



### on the ground floor. Take the elevator down to 4



### the ground floor and go in that direction. 5



### It's just below us on the other side of the 6



### hallway. 7



### Please, if you're going to go get 8



### coffee, do that quickly. Sometimes, it takes a 9



### while. And we'll resume at 11. We've covered 10



### a lot of good ground already. We'll continue 11



### doing that when we resume at 11 right here. 12



### (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 13



### went off the record at 10:43 a.m. and went back 14



### on the record at 11:00 a.m.) 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: So as a housekeeping 16



### matter, welcome back, everyone. I guess we 17



### uncovered what was causing our internet feed to 18



### go in and out, so we've corrected that we 19



### think. So thanks for those of you who are 20



### hanging with us on the internet. 21



### The Department has provided a 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 94



### photocopy of the business cards of everyone 1



### here present. So, yes, that's a convenient 2



### thing to have done. 3



### We're going to proceed. We'r e going 4



### to be talking about the preliminary analyses 5



### segment , market and technology and back to 6



### Colleen. 7



### DR . KANTNER: I'm Colleen Kantner. 8



### So whenever DOE goes through the standards 9



### rulemaking process, we go through several 10



### analyses that Lucy introduce d briefly earlier. 11



### And the first one we undertake as part of the 12



### preliminary analysis is the market and 13



### technology assessment. 14



### The purpose of the market and 15



### technology assessment is to determine product 16



### classes and identify technology options to 17



### impro ve ceiling fan and CFLK efficiency. To do 18



### this, DOE will characterize ceiling fan and 19



### CFLK markets and look into manufacturers, 20



### shipments, and trends, and identify 21



### technologies that could improve efficiency. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 95



### So one of the main results of the 1



### market and technology assessment is the 2



### establishment of product classes, each of which 3



### is subject to its own standard. Currently, 4



### there is only a single product class for 5



### ceiling fans. 6



### As directed by EPCA, DOE establishes 7



### product classes based on three criteria : one, 8



### the type of energy used; two, the capacity of 9



### the product; and, three, any other performance10



### related features that require different 11



### standard levels, such as features affecting 12



### consumer utility. 13



### So in the case of ceiling fans, we 14



### believe that al l ceiling fans use electricity, 15



### so the same type of energy. And we plan to, 16



### we're considering handling capacity, as will be 17



### described in the engineering analysis in a 18



### little bit. So it seems that, in developing 19



### product classes, this last criteria on features 20



### affecting functionality seems to be the most 21



### important. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 96



### So based on that, DOE is considering 1



### the following ceiling fan classes: indoor 2



### ceiling fans which, right now, would represent 3



### the bulk of the market; hugger ceiling fans 4



### which would be suitable for use in rooms that 5



### have low ceilings; highly- decorative ceiling 6



### fans for which air movement performance is a 7



### secondary feature; and outdoor ceiling fans 8



### which would be suitable for wet or damp 9



### conditions. 10



### Moving on, next is the technology 11



### assessment in which DOE identifies technology 12



### options that can be used to improve efficiency 13



### for ceiling fans. And here is a list of 14



### preliminary technology options. We've grouped 15



### them into three categories. First, more 16



### efficient motors. You could have more 17



### effici ent versions of the motors that are in 18



### most ceiling fans right now, direct- drive 19



### single -phase induction motors. You could have 20



### geared single-phase induction motors. You 21



### could have brushless DC motors. You could also 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 97



### have three-phase induction motors. And for all 1



### of these, we welcome any additions that should 2



### be added to this list. 3



### The second category is more 4



### efficient blades. You could have ceiling fan s 5



### with fewer blades. You could have ceiling fans 6



### with twisted fan blades. You could have fan 7



### blade s that were in the shape of an airfoil. 8



### You could have fan blades that had an 9



### attachment to them that increased airflow for a 10



### given a blade movement. And you could also 11



### have alternative blade materials. 12



### The last category is ceiling fan 13



### controls, which would be something like an 14



### occupancy sensor. And this would reduce 15



### overall energy use, although DOE is not 16



### currently aware of any ceiling fans on the 17



### market that have occupancy sensors. 18



### So now we have a few comments on the 19



### market and tech assessment for ceiling fans. 20



### So first is item 33, DOE welcomes comments on 21



### whether it should establish a separate product 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 98



### class for hugger fans. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's do them one at 2



### a time. Comments on separate product class? 3



### What do you think? No comment here. Okay. 4



### DR . KANTNER: Item 34, DOE welcomes 5



### comments on whether it should establish a 6



### separate product class for highly

- decorative 7



### fans for which air movement performance is a 8



### secondary feature. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: I guess not yet. 10



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. And item 35, 11



### DOE seeks input on whether the differences 12



### between the construction of outdoor and indoor 13



### ceiling fans warrant establishing a separate 14



### product class for outdoor ceiling fans. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Nothing. 16



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. Up next is 17



### Karina Garbesi to talk about ceiling fan light 18



### kits. I'm sorry. 19



### MR. TURNER: Will the definition of 20



### the damp and wet fall back to the UL definition 21



### or the -- 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 99



### DR . KANTNER: Right, the safety 1



### rating. 2



### MR. TURNER: Okay. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: And just, D avid, 4



### state that again. The safety rating for what? 5



### Bill? 6



### MR. WALKER: This is Bill with 7



### Hunter Fan. Yes, it's UL 507 is the standard, 8



### and it defines damp and wet. 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 10



### MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. Sorry. 11



### Just one quick question. Is DOE considering 12



### any technology options for reducing standby 13



### power consumption in those ceiling fans that 14



### have standby? 15



### DR . KANTNER: We haven't been to 16



### this point, although we welcome any 17



### suggestions. 18



### MS. MAUER: Okay. I don't have any 19



### specific suggestions. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Terry? 21



### MR. MCGOWAN: Terry McGowan. Maybe 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 100



### there should be a note added here that three1



### phase is not normally available for the bulk of 2



### the ceiling fan market because it is 3



### residential, so three -phase is not normally 4



### encountered in residential facilities. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 6



### DR . KANTNER: I think the 7



### understanding is that there's been improvements 8



### in the electronics that might allow for three9



### phase motors in the future. 10



### MR. UPTON: Say that again. 11



### DR. KANTNER: There's been 12



### improvements in electronics that might make it 13



### financially feasible to have three -phase motors 14



### in the residential sector in the future. 15



### MR. MCGOWAN: That would require 16



### homes being wired for three-phase power, which 17



### that isn't done at the present time except in 18



### multi

- family buildings possibly. 19



### DR . KANTNER: I think the idea is 20



### you would still be a single-phase coming out of 21



### the wall, but then you would have some sort of 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 101



### electronics near the fan that would convert it 1



### to three

- phase. 2



### MR. MCGOWAN: Oh, a phantom three3



### phase -- 4



### DR. KANTNER: Exactly. 5



### MR. MCGOWAN:

-- arrangement of some 6



### kind. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Bill? Bill, 8



### do you wish to comment? 9



### MR. WALKER: Bill with Hunter Fan. 10



### For DC motors and for three- phase motors, you 11



### would have to have a control that converts it, 12



### and that's, you're talking reliability issues 13



### and cost and everything. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 15



### DR. KANTNER: That's right. 16



### MR. BROOKMAN: But thanks for the 17



### clarification. Now we're moving on. Dick? 18



### MR. UPTON: A quick question, if I 19



### may. I thought I heard you talking about 20



### motion detectors for ceiling fans. But I don't 21



### see the -- 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 102



### DR . KANTNER: We said a possible 1



### technology option could be an occupancy sensor. 2



### MR. UPTON: Occupancy sensor maybe 3



### that's heat related, but certainly not a motion 4



### detector. I use my ceiling fan at night, and I 5



### don't want to have to wake up every 20 minutes 6



### to move my arm through the air to keep it 7



### going. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9



### DR . KANTNER: So up next is Karina 10



### Garbesi. 11



### DR . GARBESI: Again, Karina Garbesi 12



### from Lawrence Berkeley Lab. So currently, as 13



### you already know, there are three product 14



### classes for ceiling fan light kits: those with 15



### medium screw-based sockets, those with pin16



### based fluorescents that are externally 17



### ballasted, and all others. 18



### We can break up the ceiling fan 19



### market into light kits of the following types 20



### if we're concerned with energy efficiency21



### related issues. We can break it up by light 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 103



### source type: incandescent and halogens, compact 1



### fluorescent and LEDs. We can break it up by 2



### socket type. There's an enormous variety of 3



### socket types in existing light kits. There's a 4



### number of screw-based, a number of pin- based 5



### that are for externally ballasted lamps, there 6



### are bayonet- ty pe connectors for internally 7



### ballasted lamps, and then there's non

- socket 8



### types just coming on to the market, 9



### particularly those integral LED light kits. 10



### We can also consider whether dimming 11



### controls are either packaged with or integrated 12



### into or left out of the light kit. There's 13



### very few on the market right now that actually 14



### do have them either packaged with or integrated 15



### into. 16



### Colleen already mentioned what the 17



### DOE's criteria are for establishing product 18



### classes, so I'll skip this piece. But DOE is 19



### considering combining or restructuring ceiling 20



### fan light kit product classes into some smaller 21



### number or some different arrangement of product 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 104



### classes. 1



### In terms of the technology options 2



### for energy efficiency that DOE is considering, 3



### it's basically light source type. And that, of 4



### course, will depend on the product class, how 5



### much they can actually differ. 6



### DOE does plan to take into account 7



### the fact that certain socket types can restrict 8



### the light source type that is used. For 9



### example, the GU -24 s ockets, which there's been 10



### a lot of discussion over. 11



### So only one question here. We're 12



### requesting feedback on the possibility of 13



### combining or restructuring the product classes 14



### for light kits, especially on the possibility 15



### of consumer utility differences, and whether 16



### there are any other issues that we should 17



### consider and how many product classes should be 18



### created. So it's an open question. 19



### MR. GATTO: Dave Gatto with 20



### Westinghouse. We kind of covered this pretty 21



### in -depth earlier, and we kind of had said at 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 105



### that point that we're open to, as long as 1



### utility for the consumer is considered, we're 2



### open to finding a way to go possibly from three 3



### to two classes. But we would strongly caution 4



### against going to a single class that would 5



### eliminate other techno logies beyond currently 6



### CFL. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, 8



### Dave. Thank you. Other comments here? 9



### Nothing additional. We're ready to move on. 10



### DR . GARBESI: So back to Colleen 11



### Kantner. 12



### DR . KANTNER: So the next analysis 13



### is the screening analysis. And in the 14



### screening analysis, DOE will screen out 15



### technology options based on four criteria. DOE 16



### will look at technological feasibility, and 17



### that is whether the technology is commercially 18



### available or in a working prototype. DOE will 19



### also look at pra cticability to manufacture, 20



### install, and service, meaning it should be 21



### possible to achieve mass production, as well as 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 106



### reliable installation and servicing. And DOE 1



### will also look at adverse impacts on product 2



### utility or availability to consumers, as well 3



### as adverse impacts on health and safety. 4



### Up next, we have Aris Marantan to 5



### discuss the engineering analysis. 6



### DR. MARANTAN: Thanks, Colleen. 7



### Good morning. I'm Aris Marantan. I'm with 8



### Navigant Consulting. After DOE conducts the 9



### screening analysis, all the technology options 10



### that remain are included in the engineering 11



### analysis for consideration. These become the 12



### design options that are used in the evaluation 13



### of the engineering analysis. 14



### The purpose of the engineering 15



### analysis is to determine the relationship 16



### between cost and efficiency. Typically, what 17



### we see in the rulemaking is that, as efficiency 18



### improves, the cost of producing the product is 19



### increasing. And the engineering analysis 20



### really just describes the relationship between 21



### the cost and the efficiency. The engineering 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 107



### analysis is also used as the basis for all the 1



### economic analyses downstream of engineering. 2



### DOE may determine an appropriate 3



### subset of classes to analyze, which we call the 4



### representative product classes. DOE may 5



### extra polate results of the analyses for these 6



### representative classes to other product 7



### classes. For each representative class, DOE 8



### may analyze a subset of representative units: 9



### for example, different fan sizes or blade 10



### spans. 11



### Once DOE has identified the cost 12



### efficiency relationships of these selected 13



### sizes, it's considering whether the results can 14



### cover the full range of blade spans for other 15



### sizes. This could result in a standard which 16



### is in the form of an equation that's based on, 17



### that is a function of size. 18



### Okay. This slide gives a little bit 19



### more detail on the steps needed to conduct the 20



### engineering analysis. One of the first steps 21



### is to choose the representative product class 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 108



### and size to be analyzed. Second, the baseline 1



### efficiency level is selected based on common 2



### features and bottom of market efficiencies. 3



### Next, for each representative class 4



### and size, DOE identifies the efficiency and 5



### cost of more efficient units based on a 6



### combination of design option modeling, product 7



### testing, and teardowns. D OE then identifies 8



### the maximum technologically- feasible level or 9



### what we call the max -tech for each 10



### representative class and size. That provides 11



### the upper bound of the efficiency. 12



### Next, we develop the efficiency 13



### levels that range from the baseline all the way 14



### up to max-tech for each of these classes and 15



### sizes. And the end result of the engineering 16



### analysis is a set of price

- efficiency curves 17



### for each class and fan size analyzed, and this 18



### takes the form of manufacturer selling prices 19



### versus efficiency. 20



### For ceiling fans, the design option 21



### technologies look similar to the technologies 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 109



### that we saw earlier in the market and tech 1



### assessment. You can see here that DOE is 2



### tentatively considering including, considering 3



### more efficient alternating AC motors, b rushless 4



### DC motors, different fan blade shapes and 5



### materials, and different number of blades. 6



### The manufacturer's selling price is 7



### based on the cost of the motor, the fan blades, 8



### and other hardware times the industry 9



### manufacturer markup. The component co sts will 10



### be determined using a reverse engineering 11



### approach or product teardowns that we'll 12



### conduct. And the results of this cost 13



### assessment will be discussed with manufacturers 14



### during the engineering analysis interview 15



### process, so we welcome and encourage 16



### manufacturer feedback. 17



### This is actually the next step in 18



### the rulemaking for us. After this public 19



### meeting comment period, we're going to be 20



### reaching out to manufacturers to conduct 21



### confidential manufacturer interviews, so this 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 110



### is an important step because of all the talk 1



### we've heard about the cost- benefit analysis. 2



### This is your chance to give us your input on 3



### the costs involved with these design options, 4



### so we'd like to learn as much as we can and we 5



### welcome interaction with you during these 6



### interviews. 7



### Last, the industry-wide manufacturer 8



### markup will first be determined based on 9



### publically

- available sources. This can include 10



### things such as the SEC 10-Ks and other 11



### publically

- available data. 12



### What we then do is we take our 13



### publically

- available information sources, 14



### aggregate that for the entire industry, and 15



### then discuss it with you during the 16



### manufacturer interview process. So we'll get 17



### your feedback on this industry aggregate 18



### number. 19



### For ceiling fan light kits, DOE 20



### plans to consider more efficient lighting 21



### technologies when identifying higher

- efficiency 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 111



### levels: for example, incandescent , CFLs, LEDs. 1



### DOE is considering the following to develop 2



### the cost- efficiency relationship. The cost of 3



### the ceiling fan light kit includes the cost of 4



### the lamp, as well as the cost of any other 5



### components of the light kit. DOE does not 6



### believe that changing the lamp type will add to 7



### the cost of the remaining light kit components. 8



### And, finally, therefore, to isolate 9



### efficiency

- related costs, DOE is considering 10



### only including the cost of the lamp and any 11



### lamp

- specific parts, as necessary, in the 12



### analysis. 13



### So with that, we have two items for 14



### discussion. The first one, item 47, DOE seeks 15



### comment on its proposed methods for determining 16



### costs associated with incremental efficiency 17



### improvements in both ceiling fans and ceiling 18



### fan light kits. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here? 20



### MR. UPTON: Dick Upton. You're 21



### saying manufacturers' cost is based on the cost 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 112



### of motor and blades and other hardware times 1



### the manufacturers' markup. There's certainly 2



### far more than those items built in that are 3



### costs for the manufacturer. He's got labor 4



### costs. He's got facility costs. He's got 5



### shipping costs. And then, you know, how are 6



### you going to make a differentiation between the 7



### manufacturer that is operating efficiently in 8



### his business and those that are not? Do you 9



### understand that? Are you going to take that 10



### into account, or do you just think you've only 11



### got those three items? 12



### DR. MARANTAN: We're going to take 13



### that into a ccount. The direct production costs 14



### incorporate a lot of those labor costs that you 15



### discussed. We'll be presenting that to the 16



### manufacturers that we interview and discuss all 17



### the components that build up to the final 18



### component cost. 19



### MR. UPTON: The c ost

- benefit ratio 20



### is going to be very critical. Everybody, I 21



### think, would understand that. And there's 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 113



### going to be more than these issues involved. 1



### Just so you're aware, we'll be working toward 2



### that end, and it's going to be a question we'll 3



### give to you for you to respond to us. Thank 4



### you. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Are there 6



### still comments? David? 7



### MR. TURNER: David Turner. Can you 8



### describe a little more the manufacturing 9



### interviews and how they'll work and just a 10



### little more detail as to how you'll, what 11



### information you'll pass to us that you would 12



### need in return? 13



### DR. MARANTAN: Yes. The engineering 14



### analysis interviews start with a communication 15



### between manufacturers and DOE's consultants. 16



### What we try to do is schedule these interviews 17



### ri ght after the comment period of the framework 18



### document, so after April 29th we can start 19



### scheduling or even before April 29th we can 20



### start scheduling interviews to happen after 21



### April 29th. So if you're interested, please 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 114



### come see me during one of the breaks, and we 1



### can start that process. 2



### Basically, what we try to do is 3



### develop an interview guide, a manufacturer 4



### interview guide prior to the interview itself. 5



### And we'll share that with you so you'll know 6



### the questions that we're interested in 7



### discussing prior to that day. 8



### We tend to typically come out to 9



### production facilities because we also are 10



### interested in seeing the manufacturer site. I 11



### recognize that that may be difficult in this 12



### case since production is overseas, but we do 13



### still try to visit in- person, at least, to 14



### conduct the interview. It's typically a whole 15



### day. It doesn't have to be, but it typically 16



### is when we have a plant tour, for example. And 17



### it's an exchange of information. You know, we 18



### try to give you as much information as we can 19



### on what we've already learned about the 20



### industry and manufacturing and components and 21



### technologies, and it's a way for us to get 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 115



### information from you on what you're doing, as 1



### well. 2



### We sign non- disclosure agreements, 3



### as well, since we're a contractor to th e 4



### Department. So all of your information is held 5



### with us in confidence, and we try to aggregate 6



### data after all the interviews and make 7



### aggregate data available publically. 8



### MS. DEBUTTS: I just would like to 9



### add that, if you can't find Aris outside, yo u 10



### can always email me, you know, at the 11



### Department and say you're interested in those 12



### interviews, and I'll pass along the 13



### information. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Lucy. 15



### Dick? 16



### MR. UPTON: Dick Upton. To our 17



### people here, will we have industry members wh o 18



### will be reticent to participate in those 19



### discussions with DOE? To that end, make sure 20



### you let us know who the people are, the company 21



### names, to the point that ALA can help you by 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 116



### alerting our members what's going to take place 1



### and they're legitimate people -- 2



### MS. DEBUTTS: Certainly. 3



### Absolutely, yes. 4



### MR. UPTON: I could see some, I can 5



### think of about four companies right now that 6



### would tell you to put it in your ear and 7



### they're not going to talk to you at all. And 8



### if you need that information, we could help you 9



### get that legitimized. 10



### MS. DEBUTTS: Great, wonderful. As 11



### Aris said, there's going to be confidentiality 12



### agreements, so the information should not be 13



### shared. And we would definitely welcome your 14



### help. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 16



### DR. MA RANTAN: Okay. The second 17



### item is item 48, DOE welcomes comments on how 18



### ceiling fan efficiency varies with airflow 19



### capacity, motor type, blade span, number and 20



### design of blades, or any other parameter. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Can we comment on 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 117



### this at this time? 1



### MR. TURNER: David Turner. For fan 2



### efficiency, the relationship among the 3



### variables listed is extremely complex, and 4



### they're all interdependent on each other. So 5



### there's not really a way to say it because you 6



### can make your blades longer but your e fficiency 7



### might go down because you're putting more drag 8



### on the motor. So it's hard to comment on that. 9



### DR. MARANTAN: Okay. The last 10



### portion, DOE also seeks comments on how ceiling 11



### fan light kit efficiency varies with bulb type, 12



### number of bulbs, or any other parameter. 13



### MR. GATTO: Dave Gatto with 14



### Westinghouse. And, again, we kind of spent 15



### some time on light kits over there, so I won't 16



### belabor the point. The efficacy of the light 17



### kit typically is based on the lamp efficacy, so 18



### there isn't a whole lot more, you know, from a 19



### standards standpoint, I think, that we need to 20



### do. 21



### I did have a question on the prior 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 118



### slide. DOE does not believe the changing of 1



### the lamp type will add to the cost, but then 2



### the next statement is cost of lamp and any 3



### lamp

- specific parts, as necessary. So as long 4



### as it's clear that the changing of the lamp 5



### might add cost because you have, you know, 6



### power supply or other things, if it's an 7



### integrated LED, then we're in agreement with 8



### that. We just want to make sure it's cle ar 9



### that that first statement we wouldn't really 10



### necessarily agree with because if you just take 11



### a medium-based socket and put a CFL in, it 12



### works. But if you start to change socket 13



### types, then the cost can change. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 15



### Yes, Terry? 16



### MR. MCGOWAN: Terry McGowan. Let me 17



### point out that this last one here, when you're 18



### talking about light kit efficiency, many fans 19



### are chosen, sold, and designed not for lumen 20



### output but for appearance. So you're using a 21



### metric that nobody uses to evaluate in their 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 119



### comparison shopping or their decision to buy 1



### it. So you're measuring something that isn't 2



### used as a metric in many types of light kits. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: And that goes beyond 4



### the decorative category. 5



### MR. MCGOWAN: Well, if it's a 6



### decorative light kit and ceiling fan, the lumen 7



### output may be irrelevant to the way that 8



### product is designed or used or chosen by the 9



### consumer. 10



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 11



### MR. MCGOWAN: In other words, I'm 12



### saying it's not a metric that should be used to 13



### evaluate that light kit. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 15



### MR. TARR: This is Jeremy Tarr with 16



### Hunter. To kind of follow up on what Terry is 17



### saying, as far as the fan design goes, there 18



### are certainly, and I know you'll find through 19



### your engineering analysis, there are certainly 20



### very efficient fan designs. Typically, you 21



### find those fans in warehouses. Those are not 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 120



### residential designs. Those are not the fans 1



### that are sold every day to consumers that help 2



### offset their energy. 3



### So I understand we will find more 4



### efficient ways of doing things. But I'd just 5



### caution that just because it's the most 6



### efficient answer doesn't mean that it's the 7



### correct one. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Moving on. 9



### DR. MARANTAN: Thank you. Okay. 10



### Next will be Colleen Kantner on the markups and 11



### energy use analysis. 12



### DR . KANTNER: So as Aris said, up 13



### next is markups analysis. The purpose of the 14



### markups analysis is to relate manufacturer 15



### selling prices to end -user prices of products. 16



### And the first step is to identify dist ribution 17



### channels and estimate share of each channel in 18



### the aggregate sales volume. 19



### So here you see two distribution 20



### channels that DOE has identified. First, the 21



### home improvement retailer distribution channel 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 121



### where a product would move from manufacturer s 1



### to home improvement retailer to the consumer. 2



### And there's also the electrical wholesaler 3



### distribution channel where a product would move 4



### from manufacturer to electrical wholesaler to 5



### contractor to consumer. And the idea is that 6



### we will estimate markups for each step along 7



### the distribution chain. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dick? 9



### MR. UPTON: Dick Upton. You 10



### eliminated the lighting retail store. And 11



### industry might be able to tell me better than 12



### I, but I'm under the impression they sell to 13



### more than electrical distributors. Am I nuts? 14

15



### MR. TARR: There's not a great 16



### amount of market data available for that, but I 17



### think if we can make the distinction that 18



### potentially lighting showrooms and electrical 19



### distributors could be grouped as one class 20



### separate from ho me improvement retailers, I 21



### think that might be a cleaner definition and 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 122



### still limit it to two channels. 1



### MR. UPTON: We just don't want to 2



### forget that. 3



### MR. TARR: Certainly not. Certainly 4



### not. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, 6



### Jeremy. 7



### MR. UPTON: One other quick comment. 8



### We've been in communications with Lowe's and 9



### Home Depot, and they're very critically 10



### interested in this issue. 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Excellent. 12



### Thank you, Dick. 13



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. So next is the 14



### energy use analysis. The purpose of the energy 15



### use analysis is to identify how ceiling fans 16



### and CFLKs are operated by users and determine 17



### the energy- savings potential of more efficient 18



### designs. And this analysis will be used as a n 19



### input to both the life cycle costs and payback 20



### period analysis, as well as the national impact 21



### analysis. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 123



### DOE plans to obtain data to develop 1



### a distribution of operating hours for ceiling 2



### fans and CFLKs by region: for example, census 3



### division. And data sources could include, for 4



### example, for ceilin g fans, usage studies, 5



### regional residential utility monitoring 6



### studies, EIA's RECS. And for CFLKs, it could 7



### include, among other sources, DOE's 2013 8



### Residential Lighting End Use Consumption Survey 9



### and DOE's 2010 U.S. Lighting Market 10



### Characterization, as well as EIA's RECS. 11



### We use the input power rating 12



### developed in the engineering analysis, and then 13



### we multiply that by the annual operating hours 14



### to determine the energy use. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Terry? 16



### MR. MCGOWAN: I just wanted to ask 17



### is the DOE aware of any studies on ceiling fans 18



### that would give this kind of information so 19



### far? 20



### DR . KANTNER: In a very not precise 21



### way. This is asked in the RECS surveys where 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 124



### they ask something like if you use it a lot or 1



### a little, things like that. We will also kee p 2



### an eye out for any studies that might go into 3



### this in more detail, or, if anyone has more 4



### detail, we'd be very interested in hearing 5



### about that. 6



### MR. TARR: This is Jeremy Tarr with 7



### Hunter. I think one of the things that should 8



### be considered is what speed the fans are 9



### operating on. Simply because they're on 10



### doesn't mean that they're running at high speed 11



### which -- 12



### DR. KANTNER: Agreed. 13



### MR. TARR:

-- just needs to be part 14



### of it somehow. 15



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 16



### Questions, comments? 17



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. So next is the 18



### life cycle cost and payback period analysis. 19



### The LCC determines the impact of energy 20



### conservation standards on consumers under 21



### different efficiency levels. It is from the 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 125



### consumer's perspective, and it reflects the 1



### total cost of an appliance over its lifetime. 2



### The LCC is equal to the consumer 3



### price, plus the sum of annual operating costs. 4



### As part of this analysis, we also calculate 5



### the payback period, which is the amount of time 6



### required for energy cost savings to pay back 7



### any increased cost of a higher efficiency 8



### product. 9



### The LCC analysis takes a look at the 10



### selection process for ceiling fans and CFLKs. 11



### It is based on the distribution of product 12



### efficiencies expected for the compliance year. 13



### So some customers may not be affected by this 14



### standard, and the LCC accounts for that. 15



### It aggregates the annual energy 16



### consumption over the product's lifetime, and it 17



### uses probability distributions to characterize 18



### operating costs, as well as other parameters. 19



### Then this is all run using a computational 20



### simulation to determine the percent of 21



### customers benefitting from, being burdened by, 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 126



### or not being affected by the standard. 1



### So we use the energy use analysis we 2



### just discussed a moment ago to get the annual 3



### energy con sumption and then combine that with 4



### other parameters, including lifetime, discount 5



### rate, energy price, installation cost, among 6



### others, to arrive at the final life cycle cost. 7



### So I'm just going to briefly discuss a few of 8



### these points. 9



### First up is insta llation costs. For 10



### ceiling fans and CFLKs, DOE expects that 11



### installation costs will be independent of 12



### efficiency improvements, although, of course, 13



### we welcome if anybody else has data on that. 14



### As far as energy prices, DOE plans to use the 15



### latest version of EIA's Annual Energy Outlook 16



### to estimate future energy prices. And DOE will 17



### consider maintenance and repair costs and plans 18



### to determine whether such costs change with 19



### increased efficiency. 20



### Another important component is the 21



### product lifetime. And DOE will estimate the 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 127



### product lifetime of ceiling fans using data 1



### from various sources, including Appliance 2



### Magazine , expert opinions, and any other 3



### relevant sources. 4



### DOE anticipates that ceiling fan 5



### lifetime could vary significantly, depending on 6



### usage. And DOE plans to correlate CFLK 7



### lifetime with ceiling fan lifetime. So in 8



### other words, assume that those lifetimes are 9



### equal. But the energy savings would depend on 10



### the lifetime of a packaged lamp and any 11



### substitutable lamps. For calculating energy 12



### sav ings, the relevant lifetime will be the 13



### lesser of the ceiling fan light kit lifetime 14



### and the ceiling fan lifetime. 15



### And then we have a comment on this 16



### slide. DOE welcomes comments on appropriate 17



### lifetimes for both ceiling fans and CFLKs 18



### covered in this rulemaking. DOE is 19



### particularly interested in regional lifetime 20



### data and data on the relationship between 21



### ceiling fan usage and ceiling fan life 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 128



### expectancy. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: Brian? 2



### MR. HEIMANN: Brad Heimann with 3



### Craftmade. A couple of comments. First, I 4



### think you're going to find that the lifetime is 5



### going to vary significantly, depending on what 6



### motor technology you use. So that may come 7



### later. But back on the installation costs, I 8



### think, depending on the channel, you're going 9



### to find that ins tallation costs are not 10



### independent of the fan cost within the showroom 11



### channel because, in the DIY channel, that may 12



### be the homeowner that's putting that in. But, 13



### typically, in the other channel, you do have 14



### installers that are doing that, and then that's 15



### going to get compounded with the lifetime of 16



### the fan because they have to go back and 17



### reinstall and replace if they don't last as 18



### long as what's currently on the market. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes, 20



### please, Aris. 21



### DR. MARANTAN: Hello. Aris 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 129



### Marantan, Navigant. I wonder if you could 1



### elaborate on your -- do you have any estimates 2



### on lifetime for various motor types? 3



### MR. HEIMANN: We don't have, we 4



### don't have enough data, but we can tell you, 5



### from our company's experience, that, in 6



### particular DC motors, the componentry that's 7



### required to drive those do not last nearly as 8



### long as the current motors that are out there. 9



### You know, we've discontinued introducing those 10



### motors simply because we can't warranty them 11



### like we can with a conventional motor. So I 12



### could give you, you know, that's just a three13



### to four-year time frame that we've been 14



### introducing those, and we're already finding 15



### some significant backlash on our buyers of 16



### those products. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy? 18



### MR. TARR: I'd agree. With more 19



### time, we could potentially come up with more 20



### data, as far as product life. I would really 21



### like to see the data behind the Appliance 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 130



### Magazine survey. 1



### MR. BROOKMAN: You don't trust it? 2



### MR. TARR: It's from a long time ago 3



### and, for all we know, that gentleman is writing 4



### articles for Guns and Ammo today. I don't know 5



### that he was an expert in the industry or an 6



### expert on ceiling fans. Appliance Magazine 7



### doesn't track ceiling fans anymore, as far as 8



### I'm aware. So, you know, I'm not saying that 9



### it's

-- I would just like to see the data 10



### behind it, and then, you know, supplement that 11



### with our own industry data. We'll certainly 12



### participate, I'd just like to see some more 13



### details on it. 14



### DR . KANTNER: Sure. And we would 15



### certainly welcome any more current data on 16



### lifetime. 17



### MR. TARR: Sure. One other 18



### question. Is there a payback period that has 19



### been deemed appropriate? 20



### DR . KANTNER: That payback period is 21



### something that will be analyzed as we go 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 131



### through the process. It's not something that 1



### is necessarily set in stone. The idea is that 2



### the standard is evaluated based on the 30- year 3



### national impact. 4



### MR. TARR: Is there a target? Is 5



### there a tipping point where

-- I guess my 6



### question is , is there a tipping point where 7



### these are good ideas and should move forward or 8



### these are not worth it? 9



### MR. BROOKMAN: Lucy? 10



### MS. DEBUTTS: We're going to have to 11



### come back to that one. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 13



### MS. DEBUTTS: Not at this point. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Dick? 15



### MR. UPTON: I'm not sure, but EPA, 16



### if you're an ENERGY STAR qualified product, you 17



### have to guarantee 30 years on that. 18



### DR. KANTNER: On the motor. 19



### MR. UPTON: Maybe that becomes the 20



### standard. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 132



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. DOE will also 1



### determin e a discount rate to calculate the 2



### present value of any cash flows over the 3



### analysis period. DOE will derive a discount 4



### rate for residential users, which will be an 5



### estimate of the financial cost to the consumer. 6



### And this could include the cost of any de bt 7



### incurred to purchase a product, as well as the 8



### opportunity cost of any equity used to purchase 9



### a product. 10



### We also develop base case 11



### efficiency , which is just used to characterize 12



### the ceiling fan and CFLK market in the 13



### compliance year in the absence of DOE energy 14



### conservation standards. 15



### MR. GATTO: Dave Gatto with 16



### Westinghouse. This is kind of similar to 17



### Jeremy's question. In the life cycle cost, is 18



### there a tipping point in the energy savings 19



### versus lifetime costs? So we're talking about 20



### lifetime of the product, but is there a tipping 21



### point on we're going to save one watt over 60 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 133



### years but it's going to cost four times as 1



### much? Is there a formula that DOE uses for 2



### that, you know, to determine whether to set 3



### rulemaking or not, or is that -- 4



### MS. DEBUTTS: We don't have a 5



### formula, but we'll definitely look into and 6



### take it into consideration. I know that, from 7



### prior experiences, that some of the savings 8



### were not there, so DOE hasn't moved forward 9



### with certain rulemakings. It's not necessarily 10



### li ghting products, but, you know, it's being 11



### considered every time. 12



### MR. GATTO: Okay, thank you. 13



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. All right. So 14



### moving on to the shipments analysis. The 15



### purpose of the shipments analysis is to 16



### estimate shipments of ceiling fan an d CFLKs, as 17



### well as the product mix of the stock over the 18



### analysis period in the base case and standards 19



### cases. The national impact analysis uses the 20



### shipment and stock estimates to determine 21



### national energy savings and net present value 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 134



### at various standard levels. 1



### The analysis period will be over 30 2



### years, beginning with the expected compliance 3



### date of the standard. And DOE will estimate 4



### the stock and shipments of ceiling fans and 5



### CFLKs based on existing data, including but not 6



### limited to EIA's RECS, a s well as ENERGY STAR 7



### data. And DOE plans to use an economic model 8



### to project shipments in the standards case, as 9



### compared to the base case. And this will be 10



### based on observed and projected technology 11



### price trends. And modeled CFLK shipments will 12



### depend on ceiling fan shipments. 13



### Okay. So moving on to the national 14



### impact analysis. The purpose of the national 15



### impact analysis is to determine the projected 16



### national energy savings, or NES, and the 17



### consumer national net present value, or NPV, 18



### associated wi th potential energy conservation 19



### standards. 20



### The national energy savings is the 21



### difference in the annual operating consumption 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 135



### between the base case and standards case. The 1



### net present value is the operating costs 2



### savings minus the increased total installed 3



### cost at present value. 4



### And the method that we will use is 5



### to develop an annual series of national energy 6



### and economic impacts and then use the shipments 7



### model to estimate stock in each year. We use 8



### the LCC to develop input about total installed 9



### co st and energy use per unit in any year, and 10



### then we aggregate the cost and energ y use for 11



### all years in the analysis period. DOE will 12



### report the NES in terms of both primary and 13



### full fuel cycle savings. And DOE will also 14



### report change in national NPV in c onstant year 15



### dollars. And we also account for the time 16



### value of money through defined discount rates. 17

18



### Okay. So up next is the preliminary 19



### manufacturer impact analysis. And Hayden Cook 20



### from Navigant will be discussing that. 21



### MR. COOK: Hi. My name is Hayden 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 136



### Cook. I'm with Navigant Consulting, and I'll 1



### be briefly speaking about the manufacturer 2



### impact analysis, or MIA. DOE is conducting the 3



### MIA to better understand how standards could 4



### affect manufacturers of ceiling fans and 5



### ceiling fan light kits. 6



### There are three main purposes of the 7



### MIA. The first is to quantitatively assess the 8



### financial impact of energy conservation 9



### standards on manufacturers of ceiling fans and 10



### ceiling fan light kits. The second is to 11



### identify any potential manufacture r subgroups 12



### whose cost structure could differ significantly 13



### from an industry average. One such common 14



### subgroup is small business manufacturers. The 15



### third is to quantitatively and qualitatively 16



### examine other non -direct financial impacts of 17



### energy conservation standards on manufacturers. 18



### These could include things like direct 19



### employment, manufacturing capacity, or 20



### cumulative regulatory burden on these 21



### manufacturers. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 137



### The methodology for the MIA is 1



### typically performed in three phases, which will 2



### be shown in the next slide. However, the key 3



### output of the MIA is the change in industry net 4



### present value, or INPV, that results from an 5



### energy conservation standard. 6



### Here you can see the three phases 7



### that the MIA is conducted in. In the first 8



### phase, DOE creates an industry profile building 9



### on the market and technology assessment. This 10



### takes place during the preliminary analysis. 11



### During this time, DOE also identifies the key 12



### issues that concern manufacturers relating to 13



### an energy conservation standard. 14



### In phase two which spans the NOPR 15



### and final rule phases of analyses, DOE builds a 16



### strawman industry cash flow model called the 17



### Government Regulatory Impact Model, or GRIM, to 18



### forecast free industry cash flows in the 19



### industry. This is used in the base case, in 20



### the standards case, and calculates the INPV for 21



### each case. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 138



### Also in phase two, DOE develops an 1



### interview guide that will help to lead 2



### subsequent discussions with manufacturers 3



### during the MIA interviews, which takes place in 4



### phase three. And it's just a note that these 5



### manufacturer interviews are separate from the 6



### engineering manufacturers that Aris talked 7



### about that will be conducted after this stage. 8



### Usually, those will be conducted after the 9



### preliminary analysis stage is published. The 10



### manufacturer interviews, that is. 11



### In phase three, DOE interviews a 12



### variety of different manufacturers to receive 13



### feedback on the items that are listed in the 14



### interview guide that will be submitted. These 15



### interviews are conducted under non

- disclosure 16



### agreements, ju st like the engineering 17



### interviews, so no proprietary information will 18



### be disclosed publically. Following these 19



### interviews, DOE refines the GRIM and evaluates 20



### other qualitative issues, such as direct 21



### employment, manufacturing capacity, and 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 139



### cumulative regu latory burden on manufacturers. 1



### Oh, and then, at this time, DOE is 2



### requesting any comment on any existing or 3



### pending regulations that DOE should examine in 4



### the cumulative regulatory burden. 5



### MR. BROOKMAN: David? 6



### MR. GATTO: David Gatto with 7



### Westinghouse Lighting. We've already talked 8



### about it. It's the lamp legislation that's 9



### covered under E ISA and EPAct, as well as 10



### proposed rulemaking s on additional lamp 11



### categories like HID and the next round for IRL 12



### and fluorescent. 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. N othing 14



### additional. Okay. 15



### MR. UPTON: Lucy, is there any way 16



### that these two interviews can be done at the 17



### same time? 18



### MS. DEBUTTS: They're happening in 19



### different stages of the rulemaking process, so 20



### the answer, unfortunately, is no. 21



### MR. UPTON: We've got one day for 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 140



### one person, and we've got another day being 1



### shot up. There's a lot of work going in to 2



### trying to come up with all the answers you 3



### need, and I'll just caution that we want to 4



### give as good of answers as we can but you're 5



### going to run into roadblocks at some point 6



### where people say enough is enough. 7



### MR. COOK: Sure. We understand 8



### that, and these two interview cycles would 9



### probably be held, you know, months apart, maybe 10



### even a full year apart. So one would be 11



### conducted between the fra mework stage and the 12



### preliminary analysis, and the second one would 13



### be conducted between the preliminary analysis 14



### publication and the publication of the NOPR. 15



### So we're talking potentially a full year apart, 16



### but we do understand. And it gives us another 17



### chance to refine some of the variables that are 18



### published in the preliminary analysis and, 19



### basically, we can't interact with manufacturers 20



### about that data until we publish that 21



### preliminary analysis data. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 141



### MS. DEBUTTS: And I'm looking at the 1



### proposed sche dule right now. He's absolutely 2



### correct. It's going to be a year between the 3



### two. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: Brian? 5



### MR. HEIMANN: Brad Heimann with 6



### Craftmade. I'm curious specifically about the 7



### derivation of a discount rate. It occurs to me 8



### that, by the very nature of everything you're 9



### talking about, be it the consumer tradeoff, NPV 10



### analysis, the discount rate can significantly 11



### impact how those analyses turn out. And I'd 12



### like to know exactly how we're going to derive 13



### that because, with regard to consumer impact, I 14



### would propose that these days a consumer 15



### discounts future savings much more heavily than 16



### you're probably anticipating as far as when 17



### they're going to let go of a current -day dollar 18



### for a future benefit. So I think we should 19



### look very heavily at how we derive those 20



### discount rates. 21



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 142



### MR. COOK: There's also, it's not 1



### listed as a comment, but if there's any 2



### manufacturer subgroups that people would like 3



### to raise, other than the small business 4



### manufacturers, DOE is al so looking for comment 5



### for that, but I don't know if there is any. 6



### MR. TARR: Jeremy Tarr with Hunter. 7



### I would suggest we look at the impact on the 8



### lighting showroom channel. We have a lot of 9



### small business retailers that would, could be 10



### significantl y impacted by a substantial 11



### increase in product costs and retails. It 12



### would also, to that end, I mean, it would also 13



### affect the home center business. We're talking 14



### about significantly altering the cost structure 15



### of ceiling fans potentially. I'm not sayi ng 16



### that's where we're going to end up, but that's 17



### what we're here discussing. So it's a 18



### significant impact across the board for the 19



### retail environment. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 21



### Dick? 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 143



### MR. UPTON: The Remodelers 1



### Association, we partner with the m a lot. And 2



### we see a price tag go up where they've looked 3



### in the past at having a ceiling fan with a 4



### light kit on it to take care of the primary 5



### light requirement in the room and/or the 6



### builders, they'll forget about a ceiling fan 7



### and put in a light and put in the air 8



### conditioner and let people run their air 9



### conditioner. 10



### MR. TARR: And to that end, you 11



### know, there is no regulation on a light that 12



### can be put in the place of that ceiling fan. 13



### That might be a 12-light chandelier with 40- 14



### watt bulbs in every socket. So, again, when we 15



### talk cumulative regulatory burden, ceiling fans 16



### are energy- savings devices. We're trying to 17



### squeeze blood out of a turnip in terms of 18



### efficiency. So I just ask that we keep that in 19



### mind as we move through the proceedings. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. 21



### MR. COOK: Okay. Now Colleen will 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 144



### continue with the NOPR analyses. 1



### MS. HUSAIN: Excuse me. Sorry. Can 2



### I just ask one question ? 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Just say your name 4



### again. 5



### MS. HUSAIN: Aisha. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 7



### MS. HUSAIN: Can I ask a quick 8



### question before we move into NOPR analyses, and 9



### this is on an earlier section so sorry about 10



### that. For light kits product classes, consumer 11



### utility was mentioned as a consideration. 12



### Would the manufacturers have any key things 13



### that they think are really important to 14



### consumers that come to mind? 15



### MR. FRAMPTON: Light output. I 16



### mean, the 190-watt limiter is driving customers 17



### away from the product. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Nathan. 19



### Brian, you want to keep going here? 20



### MR. HEIMANN: I would agree with 21



### that. First is, you know, people are looking 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 145



### for light output, but there's an attractiveness 1



### component. You know, it's not mentioned very 2



### much in appliance standards, but we do have a 3



### unique product in that people don't just buy it 4



### for its utility, they buy it because they want 5



### it to look nice while it's accomplishing 6



### lighting up the room. So it has to satisfy 7



### that demand pretty heavily, as well. 8



### MS. HUSAIN: This is Aisha again. 9



### Is there a certain range of light output that's 10



### used as a rule of thumb? 11



### MR. BROOKMAN: Terry? 12



### MR. MCGOWAN: Yes, but the light 13



### output varies widely, depending upon the size 14



### of the room and the reflectance of the surfaces 15



### in that room. So it is not manufacturer 16



### controllable in t he sense that they can 17



### influence those external factors. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Dave? 19



### MR. GATTO: I wanted to wait until 20



### you finished writing. Dave Gatto. From a 21



### functionality standpoint, a lot of the consumer 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 146



### feedback we get is, particularly in CFL, warm

1



### up period, even in current, which is much 2



### further along than it was even five years ago. 3



### There's a warmup period for the lamps. They 4



### don't come on at full brightness. And then the 5



### functionality, being able to dim or control the 6



### light levels in the room. 7



### MR. MCGOWAN: I can also add that 8



### the appearance of the bulbs matters. Some 9



### people don't like the swirly look of a compact 10



### fluorescent, for example. They prefer the 11



### roundness and shape of a standard a

- line bulb. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: So now we're moving 13



### on. 14



### MR. TURNER: Well, and color 15



### temperature. Just the cooler or the warmer of 16



### a light, at 2700 Kelvin to 3500 or higher. 17



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Terry? 18



### MR. MCGOWAN: Yes. And we have to 19



### include color rendering because that's what 20



### makes people look natural and normal. So 21



### chromaticity and color rendering with respect 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 147



### to performance, color performance of the light 1



### source are both important. 2



### MR. BROOKMAN: On to consumer 3



### subgroups. 4



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. And this slide 5



### describes the analyses th at will be revised at 6



### the preliminary

-- excuse me. For the NOPR 7



### analyses, these are the ones that will be 8



### revised that were previously done in the 9



### preliminary analysis stage, and that includes 10



### the engineering analysis, the LCC and payback 11



### period analysis, the NIA and the MIA, and then 12



### there's a number of new analyses which are done 13



### at the NOPR stage for the first time. 14



### So the first of these is the 15



### consumer subgroup analysis, which is basically 16



### just the LCC analysis for certain 17



### disproportionately

- impacte d subgroups. And DOE 18



### welcomes input from interested parties 19



### regarding which, if any, consumer subgroups 20



### should be considered when developing potential 21



### energy conservation standards for ceiling fans 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 148



### and CFLKs. 1



### Okay. The next analysis is the 2



### e missions analysis. We do an emissions 3



### analysis to estimate environmental impacts from 4



### potential standards, including changes in full 5



### fuel cycle emissions, for several of these 6



### emissions, including carbon dioxide, sulfur 7



### dioxide, nitrogen oxides, methane, nitrous 8



### oxide, and mercury. And DOE seeks input on its 9



### approach to conduct the emissions analysis for 10



### the products covered by this rulemaking. 11



### MR. GATTO: Dave Gatto with 12



### Westinghouse. It's more of a question. Will 13



### the DOE be taking into consideration the 14



### potential emission increases caused by HVAC and 15



### air conditioning use if ceiling fans are not in 16



### the room? So kind of from our

-- it's in our 17



### public comment that the concern we have here is 18



### that the regulation is actually going to be run 19



### counterprodu ctive to the DOE's mandate because 20



### it will drive consumers away from an energy21



### saving product and result in higher energy 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 149



### usage for cooling and heating purposes. 1



### MS. DEBUTTS: And you have data to 2



### substantiate that? 3



### MR. GATTO: It's tough. In the few 4



### days that we've had this, the one thing that we 5



### did look at

-- Nathan may want to chime in, we 6



### talked about it last night. Go ahead. 7



### MR. BROOKMAN: Nathan, go ahead. 8



### MR. FRAMPTON: Well, I mean, we do 9



### have data. We know that an air conditioner 10



### co nsumes three, four, five thousand watts. We 11



### know an electric furnace consumes, I think it's 12



### 27,000 watts or some absurd number. So we do 13



### have that data. 14



### MR. BROOKMAN: Please use the 15



### microphone. 16



### DR . GARBESI: I'm sorry. We can and 17



### will incorporate those kinds of analyses that 18



### affect total energy use if we have the data. 19



### MR. BROOKMAN: So that data, that 20



### objective data just comparing those two usages, 21



### those usage rates may not do it for DOE. You 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 150



### know what I'm saying? It's going to have to be 1



### the tradeoff. That's what you're going to need 2



### to show, right? 3



### DR . KANTNER: It will be helpful to 4



### know how it actually affects consumer behavior 5



### and not just the wattages of each. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, that's a better 7



### way of putting it. Thank you. 8



### MR. TARR: This is Jeremy Tarr with 9



### Hunter. I believe that DOE has calculated some 10



### potential savings based on using an ENERGY STAR 11



### ceiling fan. I believe that could be adapted 12



### for this purpose. 13



### MR. BROOKMAN: Lucy? 14



### DR . GARBESI: But the potential 15



### savings doesn't necessarily reflect what 16



### happens in the field. Those are the data that 17



### would be the most persuasive. I think there 18



### were comments submitted about the need for 19



### education that reflect on that, as well. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So I saw Brian 21



### first. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 151



### MR. HEIMANN: I was just going to 1



### mention that I think on the EPA's website they 2



### actually do tell consumers that they can save 3



### up to 14 percent on their air conditioning 4



### costs over a season if they use a ceiling fan 5



### and raise their thermostat. So I know that 6



### data exists, and there is a correlation. I 7



### understand that we have to, you know, match up 8



### the data to what happens in the field, but, 9



### again, you can, by the same note, you can drive 10



### efficiency in a ceiling fan, as well, but if 11



### they don't get purchased it doesn't manifest 12



### itself unless it gets put in the home either. 13



### So you're still talking about having to match 14



### up the reality. We have to make some 15



### assumptions, and I think it's a pretty safe 16



### assumption to make that, if people are going to 17



### mak e a tradeoff to be comfortable there, if 18



### they don't use a fan, they are going to manage 19



### their climate in some other way. 20



### MR. BROOKMAN: So it sounds like 21



### you've got a good start on making this case, 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 152



### and the better you can do it the easier it is 1



### for DOE. 2



### MS. DEBUTTS: Correct, yes. 3



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. Joanna? 4



### MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I think 5



### there's no question that ceiling fans certainly 6



### have the potential to save a lot of energy if 7



### consumers do, in fact, raise the thermostat in 8



### the summer or use ceiling fans in place of air 9



### conditioning. I'm not aware of any field 10



### studies that have actually confirmed that, you 11



### know, consumers are changing their behavior. 12



### The only field study I came across conducted by 13



### the Florida Solar Energy Center, conducted a 14



### number of years ago, but I think they found 15



### that there was no noticeable difference in 16



### energy consumption in homes with ceiling fans 17



### compared to homes without ceiling fans, that 18



### they didn't find that consumers were actually 19



### changing thermost ats when they had ceiling fans 20



### running. But I'd be interested if there's 21



### other data available. 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 153



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Dick? 1



### MR. UPTON: Most of these analyse s 2



### will be done, hopefully, from what's real, as 3



### opposed to this is where we want to head so 4



### let 's go find some numbers that prove our 5



### point. And I'm concerned about that. 6



### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 7



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. Next is the 8



### monetization of emissions reductions. We 9



### currently monetize some of the emissions we 10



### just discussed, specifically carbon dioxide and 11



### nitrogen oxides. And for CO2, DOE intends to 12



### use the most recent social cost of carbon 13



### values developed by interagency reviews. 14



### And DOE requests comments on the 15



### approach it plans to use for estimating 16



### monetary values associated with emissions 17



### reductions. 18



### MR. BROOKMAN: Any comments here? 19



### No comments here. 20



### DR . KANTNER: Okay. Next is the 21



### utility impact analysis, and we do a utility 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 154



### impact analysis to look at, among other things, 1



### avoided capacity. So DOE welcomes input from 2



### stakeholders on its proposed approach to 3



### conduct the utility impact analysis. 4



### Next comes the employment impact 5



### analysis. Whereas the MIA looked at direct 6



### employment impacts, the employment impact 7



### analysis looks at indirect employment impacts 8



### resulting fro m shifting consumer expenditures. 9



### And DOE welcomes feedback on its proposed 10



### approach to assessing national employment 11



### impacts. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Both direct and 13



### indirect. Comments? I see none. Okay. 14



### DR . KANTNER: And then, finally, we 15



### do a regulatory impact analysis that looks at 16



### the potential for other non- regulatory 17



### alternatives to affect the energy efficiency of 18



### ceiling fans and ceiling fan light kits. DOE 19



### requests any available data or reports that 20



### would contribute to the regulatory impact 21



### analy sis for ceiling fans and CFLKs covered in 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 155



### this rulemaking. In particular, DOE seeks 1



### information on the effectiveness of existing or 2



### past programs for these products that are 3



### similar to the policies noted above. 4



### MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here? 5



### Okay. So do you want to advance to the final 6



### slide? 7



### DR. KANTNER: Sure. 8



### MR. BROOKMAN: As we promised at the 9



### outset, now is another opportunity for anyone 10



### that wants to make a final comment, to cover 11



### issues that haven't been covered sufficiently 12



### at this point. Now is your chance. I see 13



### none. So let me encourage you, your packet has 14



### an evaluation form. This is the last page in 15



### your packet. If you'd take the time to take a 16



### look at that and fill it out, and I'm going to 17



### turn it back to Lucy deButts for clos ing 18



### remarks. 19



### MS. DEBUTTS: Well, I just want to 20



### thank everyone for coming and talking to us 21



### about this rulemaking. We will, we're looking 22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 156



### forward to working with the industry and every 1



### single participant on developing the test 2



### procedures and the stand ards for these product 3



### classes, for these products. 4



### Again, I just wanted to comment that 5



### the comment period closes on April 29th. I 6



### hear the concern about the time frames, so if 7



### you decide that you need a little more time you 8



### can submit the request to us and we'll consider 9



### it. Again, these are the means by which you 10



### can communicate with us. And with that, I can 11



### move to close. 12



### MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks to all of you 13



### and safe travels. 14



### (Whereupon, the foregoing matter was 15



### concluded at 12:03 p.m.) 16

17

18

19

20

21

22

### NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234- 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005- 3701 www.nealrgross.com 

### 157

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11