### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **PUBLIC MEETING ON ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR COMMERCIAL**  **REFRIGERATION EQUIPMENT + + + + +**  **THURSDAY OCTOBER 3, 2013** 

**+ + + + + The Public Meeting commenced in**  **Room 8E-089 of the US Department of Energy, 1000 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, DC,**  **at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Facilitator, presiding.** 

**PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions, Inc.,**  **Facilitator TIM ANDERSON, Hussmann**  **VIKTOR ANDERSON, Structural Concepts ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, DOE**  **TIM BALLO, Earthjustice JEFF BAUMAN, NRAC**  **CHRIS BOLDUC, Lawrence Berkeley National Lab DONALD BRUNDAGE, Southern Company**  **STEVEN A. COUSINS, Coca-Cola KATIE COUGHLIN, Lawrence Berkeley National Lab**  **JOHN CYMBALSKY, DOE MARY DANE, Traulsen**  **BRUCE HIERLMEIER, Zero Zone, Inc. CHARLES HON, True**  **JOHN HURST, Lennox CHRISTOPHER LAU, Navigant**  **PAUL LIN, Regal ROBERT LINNEY, Royal Vendors**  **CHARLES LLENZA, DOE ARIS MARANTAN, Navigant** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **MIKE MAU, Royal Vendors JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness**  **Project ANNE McCARTHY, Navigant**  **CHARLES McCRUDDEN, ACCA JON McHUGH, California Investor-Owned**  **Utilities FRANK MOORE, NAFEM**  **MIKE RIVEST, Navigant ANIRUDDH ROY, AHRI**  **HARVEY SACHS, ACEEE RON SHEBIK, Hussmann**  **LOUIS STARR, NEEA CHRIS THOMPSON, Heatcraft**  **JENNIFER TIEDEMAN, DOE COLLIN WEBER, Navigant**  **ROBERT WILKINS, Danfoss**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **A G E N D A WELCOME AND INTRODUCTIONS, OPENING**  **REMARKS .................................... 4**  **Doug Brookman/John Cymbalsky OVERVIEW, SCOPE, TEST PROCEDURE**  **........... 21 Charles Llenza**  **MARKET AND TECHNOLOGY ASSESSMENT AND SCREENING ANALYSIS 30**  **Collin Weber ENGINEERING ANALYSIS 51**  **Collin Weber MARKUPS ANALYSIS: ENERGY USE ANALYSIS 165**  **Katie Coughlin LIFE-CYCLE COSTS AND PAYBACK PERIOD**  **ANALYSIS 172 Katie Coughlin**  **SHIPMENTS ANALYSIS AND NATIONAL IMPACT ANALYSIS 212**  **Katie Coughlin MANUFACTURER IMPACT ANALYSIS 267**  **Christopher Lau NOPR ANALYSIS 282**  **Katie Coughlin CLOSING REMARKS 352**  **Charles Llenza**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P R O C E E D I N G S**  

### 2 **(9:04 a.m.)** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning,** 

### 4 **everyone, and welcome. This is the U.S.** 

### 5 **Department of Energy's Public Meeting on** 

### 6 **Energy Conservation Standards for Commercial** 

### 7 **Refrigeration Equipment. rd**  

### 8 **Today is Thursday, October 3 ,** 

### 9 **2013 here in the Forrestal Building in** 

### 10 **Washington, D.C. So good to see you here this** 

### 11 **morning bright and early.** 

### 12 **We have a full day ahead of us, I** 

### 13 **think. We're going to start off this morning** 

### 14 **with welcoming remarks from John Cymbalsky.** 

### 15 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you, Doug.** 

### 16 **Welcome, everybody, to the public meeting for** 

### 17 **Commercial Refrigeration Equipment, Proposal** 

### 18 **for New and Amended Energy Conservation** 

### 19 **Standards.** 

### 20 **I've heard from several of you** 

### 21 **already, so I have a feeling we're in for a** 

### 22 **nice, lively meeting, which actually I enjoy.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 Some of these, sometimes, aren't as fun as**  

### 2 **this one portends to be. So, with that, let's** 

### 3 **get started and have a productive day. Thank** 

### 4 **you.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We always** 

### 6 **start with introductions, as many of you know,** 

### 7 **around the room. And I'm going to start to my** 

### 8 **immediate left as we get used to turning these** 

### 9 **microphones on and off.** 

### 10 **Please say your name and** 

### 11 **organizational affiliation.** 

### 12 **MR. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson,** 

### 13 **Hussman Corporation.** 

### 14 **MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik, Hussman** 

### 15 **Corporation.** 

### 16 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True** 

### 17 **Manufacturing.** 

### 18 **MR. COUSINS: Steve Cousins, the** 

### 19 **Coca-Cola Company.** 

### 20 **MS. DANE: Mary Dane, Traulsen** 

### 21 **Refrigeration.** 

### 22 **MR. ANDERSON: Victor Anderson,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 Structural Concepts Corporation.**  

### 2 **MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman, national** 

### 3 **Refrigeration Air Conditioning.** 

### 4 **MR. LINNEY: Bob Linney, Royal** 

### 5 **Vendors.** 

### 6 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American** 

### 7 **Counsel for Energy Efficient Economy.** 

### 8 **MR. THOMPSON: Chris Thompson,** 

### 9 **Heatcraft Refrigeration.** 

### 10 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,** 

### 11 **Danfoss.** 

### 12 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance** 

### 13 **Standards Awareness Project.** 

### 14 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce Hierlmeier,** 

### 15 **Zero Zone.** 

### 16 **MR. McHUGH: Jon McHugh** 

### 17 **representing the California Investor-Owned** 

### 18 **Utilities.** 

### 19 **MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Air** 

### 20 **Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration** 

### 21 **Institute.** 

### 22 **MS. TIEDEMAN: Jennifer Tiedeman,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 DOE, Office of General Counsel.**  

### 2 **MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza,** 

### 3 **Department of Energy, Project Manager.** 

### 4 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 5 **DOE.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please, let's start** 

### 7 **over here. Please stand and speak clearly.** 

### 8 **MR. WEBER: Collin Weber, Navigant.** 

### 9 **MR. LAU: Christopher Lau,** 

### 10 **Navigant.** 

### 11 **MS. COUGHLIN: Katie Coughlin,** 

### 12 **Lawrence Berkeley National Lab.** 

### 13 **MR. BOLDUC: Chris Bolduc, Lawrence** 

### 14 **Berkeley National Lab.** 

### 15 **MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant.** 

### 16 **MS. EDWARDS: Brenda Edwards, DOE.** 

### 17 **MR. HURST: John Hurst, Lennox.** 

### 18 **MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo,** 

### 19 **Earthjustice.** 

### 20 **MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest** 

### 21 **Energy Efficiency Alliance.** 

### 22 **MR. MOORE: Frank Moore, NAFEM.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 MR. MAU: Mike Mau, Royal Vendors.**  

### 2 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden,** 

### 3 **ACCA.** 

### 4 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage,** 

### 5 **Southern Company.** 

### 6 **MR. LIN: Paul Lin, Regal.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong,** 

### 8 **DOE.** 

### 9 **MR. MARANTAN: Aris Marantan,** 

### 10 **Navigant.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. And for** 

### 12 **those of you that are joining us via the web,** 

### 13 **welcome to you, as well. Let me ask you if you** 

### 14 **would please make sure your telephones are on** 

### 15 **mute at this time because we're getting** 

### 16 **feedback.** 

### 17 **All of you received a packet of** 

### 18 **information as you came into the room today.** 

### 19 **We were very pleased to present it to you.** 

### 20 **Immediately following this agenda review and** 

### 21 **the introductions which we've already done,** 

### 22 **there's an opportunity for anybody that wishes**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 to make brief opening remarks here at the**  

### 2 **outset, a summary statement, not a lengthy** 

### 3 **written comment. We can always have those** 

### 4 **submitted and put into the record in their** 

### 5 **complete form, but we're hoping that these can** 

### 6 **be summary statements briefly.** 

### 7 **Following that Overview, Scope and** 

### 8 **Test Procedure, and moving straight on from** 

### 9 **there to Market and Technology Assessment and** 

### 10 **Screening Analysis, Engineering Analysis.** 

### 11 **We'll take a break midmorning around about** 

### 12 **10:30-10:45 or so. Following that, Markup** 

### 13 **Analysis, Energy Use Analysis, Life-Cycle** 

### 14 **Costs and Payback Period Analysis. And then** 

### 15 **moving on from there, Shipments Analysis and** 

### 16 **National Impact Analysis. We'll take lunch** 

### 17 **round about noon or so. Returning from lunch,** 

### 18 **Manufacturer Impact Analysis, NOPR Analyses,** 

### 19 **we'll break mid-afternoon round about 2:00 or** 

### 20 **2:15. Then, finally, after the break, the** 

### 21 **description of the Proposed Standard, and** 

### 22 **Closing Remarks. In the afternoon when we've**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 gone through all of this material, you'll have**  

### 2 **another opportunity for anybody that wants to** 

### 3 **raise issues that haven't been covered** 

### 4 **sufficiently. Okay?** 

### 5 **So make notes, make sure -- I'm** 

### 6 **very hopeful that the structure provided by** 

### 7 **all these PowerPoint slides is going to** 

### 8 **provide you the spot and place to really make** 

### 9 **your comments effectively. That's good for** 

### 10 **you, it's good for the Department of Energy,** 

### 11 **as well.** 

### 12 **I'd ask for your consideration.** 

### 13 **Please if you would speak one at a time, say** 

### 14 **your name for the record each time you speak.** 

### 15 **Since you've all registered you don't need to** 

### 16 **say your organizational affiliation unless** 

### 17 **that's stuck in your brain. You can just say** 

### 18 **your name.** 

### 19 **Please keep the focus here. Turn** 

### 20 **your cell phones on silent mode, limit sidebar** 

### 21 **conversations. I'm going to be cuing** 

### 22 **individuals by name as best I can. I also wish**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 to encourage follow-on comment. Sometimes**  

### 2 **that's very helpful for the Department to get** 

### 3 **the back and forth among different points of** 

### 4 **view.** 

### 5 **And webinar participants, welcome** 

### 6 **to you. The Department of Energy is trying** 

### 7 **very hard to make these meetings accessible** 

### 8 **via the web. If you can keep your telephones** 

### 9 **on mute, and if you'd raise your hand using** 

### 10 **the software that you've got on line there to** 

### 11 **speak, then it has been working that we've** 

### 12 **been able to hear individuals via the web here** 

### 13 **in the room, or you can send an email to our** 

### 14 **webmaster and she'll cue me, and I will cue** 

### 15 **you to speak. And that's how we intend to do** 

### 16 **this.** 

### 17 **Let me see. I think that is all** 

### 18 **the preliminary stuff. Do you want to do --** 

### 19 **Slide 3. I think I've covered that, yes.** 

### 20 **Once again, listening via the web,** 

### 21 **we welcome webinar participants. We want to** 

### 22 **provide an opportunity for you to participate**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 in this meeting as best we can, so raise your**  

### 2 **hand or send an email to our webmaster and** 

### 3 **we'll get you in this conversation.** 

### 4 **Do you want to do a few** 

### 5 **preliminary slides before we do summary** 

### 6 **remarks here at the outset?** 

### 7 **MR. LLENZA: No, I think we'll just** 

### 8 **follow the --** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. LLENZA: -- issue boxes. This** 

### 11 **is an important part of our presentation, and** 

### 12 **also part of the NOPR. There are issues boxes** 

### 13 **that we have questions specifically addressing** 

### 14 **our Proposed Standards and Analysis. We'd** 

### 15 **greatly appreciate comments to these from all** 

### 16 **parties. And just a reminder, a quick reminder** 

### 17 **that the deadline for submitting comments is** 

### 18 **November 12, 2013.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: I neglected to** 

### 20 **introduce myself. I'm Doug Brookman from** 

### 21 **Public Solutions in Baltimore.** 

### 22 **So, as we said at the outset now**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 is an opportunity for summary remarks, an**  

### 2 **opportunity to feature things that you would** 

### 3 **like to bring to the fore right here at the** 

### 4 **outset. Who would like to start? Joanna Mauer.** 

### 5 **MS. MAUER: I'm Joanna Mauer with** 

### 6 **the Appliance Standards Awareness Project.** 

### 7 **We're pleased that this proposed rule has** 

### 8 **finally been issued after a long delay. We** 

### 9 **believe that DOE has proposed strong cost** 

### 10 **effective efficiency levels that would deliver** 

### 11 **large energy savings for the nation, and** 

### 12 **energy bill savings for purchasers of** 

### 13 **commercial refrigeration equipment.** 

### 14 **DOE estimates that customers would** 

### 15 **save hundreds of dollars in life-cycle cost** 

### 16 **savings and over 30 years of sales the** 

### 17 **standards would save one quad of energy and** 

### 18 **would net businesses $1.6-4.1 billion in** 

### 19 **savings.** 

### 20 **We thank DOE for the opportunity** 

### 21 **to participate in today's public meeting and** 

### 22 **we look forward to the discussion today. Thank**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 you.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. McHUGH: I have a couple of** 

### 4 **slides.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon, you do?** 

### 6 **MR. McHUGH: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Do you have** 

### 8 **them?** 

### 9 **MR. McHUGH: I think they're on** 

### 10 **there.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Say your name, Jon.** 

### 12 **MR. McHUGH: Jon McHugh with McHugh** 

### 13 **Energy supporting the California Investor** 

### 14 **Owned Utilities.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's prop this up a** 

### 16 **little bit here.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 18 **Will these slides be added to the website?** 

### 19 **MR. McHUGH: It's open to DOE, but** 

### 20 **I will provide them, yes.** 

### 21 **MR. SACHS: Thank you.** 

### 22 **MR. McHUGH: Good morning. The**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 basis of all of why the government actually**  

### 2 **regulates energy consumption of equipment has** 

### 3 **to do with effects on global environment. And** 

### 4 **I ask the question - can we change the global** 

### 5 **environment? Certainly, we can in terms of** 

### 6 **light outside. Most of you are probably** 

### 7 **familiar with the hockey stick, which is the** 

### 8 **fact that carbon dioxide levels have been** 

### 9 **rising dramatically over the last 50 years or** 

### 10 **100 years, and I think a common belief is that** 

### 11 **that's human caused.** 

### 12 **And we've actually been down this** 

### 13 **path before in this industry where we had an** 

### 14 **issue associated with the chlorofluorocarbons** 

### 15 **and the increase or the decrease in the ozone** 

### 16 **layer. And we had a problem that was** 

### 17 **recognized, and we've actually turned the** 

### 18 **corner on this; that the reductions in ozone** 

### 19 **have decreased because of proactive actions by** 

### 20 **the refrigeration industry and government.** 

### 21 **Now, I don't know if many of you** 

### 22 **have seen this before. This is a supply curve**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 for carbon abatement. On the Y axis here is**  

### 2 **the net present value of doing things that** 

### 3 **reduce carbon emissions. And what you see is** 

### 4 **over on the left side of the graph are** 

### 5 **primarily energy efficient measures. And on** 

### 6 **the right side of the graph which actually** 

### 7 **increase costs are essentially things like** 

### 8 **carbon sequestration and that sort of thing.** 

### 9 **So, I look at the items that are** 

### 10 **on the left side of the graph just being** 

### 11 **things that actually increase wealth for our** 

### 12 **society because they actually reduce the net** 

### 13 **present value. The savings are actually** 

### 14 **greater than their costs, and yet the things** 

### 15 **that are on the right side are things that** 

### 16 **actually impose a cost on society. And from a** 

### 17 **policy basis sort of the no regrets move is to** 

### 18 **actually do those things that generate wealth** 

### 19 **for our society.** 

### 20 **Looking at the results from the** 

### 21 **NOPR, you know, it appears that if we look at** 

### 22 **the group of equipment that are -- that have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 not been regulated since the 2005 EPACT, the**  

### 2 **simple payback is, in general, less than three** 

### 3 **years. We look at the savings from the other** 

### 4 **things that were more recently regulated - in** 

### 5 **general the simple paybacks are around four** 

### 6 **years.** 

### 7 **If you look at this in terms of an** 

### 8 **internal rate of return for businesses like** 

### 9 **supermarkets and that sort of thing, typically** 

### 10 **they're in business for at least 10 years. And** 

### 11 **for all of those products that you'd more** 

### 12 **typically see in supermarkets like the things** 

### 13 **that have been regulated recently, since 2009,** 

### 14 **you see that the internal rates of return are** 

### 15 **around 18 percent which isn't bad. And if you** 

### 16 **look at restaurants which might have a shorter** 

### 17 **life of their business, sometimes they go out** 

### 18 **of business, those are the types of things,** 

### 19 **the reach-in refrigeration and those sorts of** 

### 20 **things, and those typically have simple** 

### 21 **paybacks of three years or less. So, they had** 

### 22 **rates of return that are 20 percent, so**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 they're more likely to be in business if they**  

### 2 **actually make these kinds of investments.** 

### 3 **So, is the NOPR a wealth generator** 

### 4 **for the country, and also for your customers?** 

### 5 **I plotted from NASDAQ the last 10 years of** 

### 6 **stock prices. Walmart has been fairly** 

### 7 **constant, Safeway is similar, as well.** 

### 8 **McDonald's has actually done pretty good. I** 

### 9 **wish I knew that. And here's Cracker Barrel,** 

### 10 **so I'm trying to show the different types of** 

### 11 **customers that you might have, and then** 

### 12 **compare that to a four and a half year simple** 

### 13 **payback. It actually looks pretty attractive** 

### 14 **and doesn't have the volatility of the stock** 

### 15 **market, so these are actually relatively good** 

### 16 **investments.** 

### 17 **And, you know, the question that I** 

### 18 **think will be raised is: are the measures that** 

### 19 **are in the proposed test standard level** 

### 20 **unusual, burdensome, costly, or unfeasible?** 

### 21 **And these are many of the same kinds of** 

### 22 **measures that the California IOUs have been**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 providing incentives around, and have a fairly**  

### 2 **broad use in the market.** 

### 3 **Anti-sweat heater controls, you** 

### 4 **know, there's huge savings from this. Again,** 

### 5 **Southern California Edison has done quite a** 

### 6 **bit of study on this. Often, these are** 

### 7 **installed separately from the display case,** 

### 8 **and I understand because of the fixed relative** 

### 9 **humidity that's involved in the test method we** 

### 10 **really can't capture the savings from an anti** 

### 11 **sweat heater control.** 

### 12 **We would like a finding from DOE** 

### 13 **that would indicate that these are actually** 

### 14 **not covered, and as a result ASHRAE 90.1 and** 

### 15 **the various building standards can regulate** 

### 16 **this as part of the energy efficiency** 

### 17 **standard.** 

### 18 **So, in conclusion, we'd like to** 

### 19 **see that the standards are enforceable and as** 

### 20 **part of that – you know, even though if you** 

### 21 **have a good hammer everything looks like a** 

### 22 **nail – the fact of the matter is, is that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 certain things are actually better regulated**  

### 2 **through buildings standards than through** 

### 3 **appliance efficiency standards.** 

### 4 **We'd also like to see that the** 

### 5 **database of equipment is actually populated so** 

### 6 **that, people can make comparisons between the** 

### 7 **efficiency of different products, that the** 

### 8 **database is readily accessible so that folks** 

### 9 **like the utilities can actually sort and look** 

### 10 **at a percentile analysis and make some** 

### 11 **determinations about what products that they** 

### 12 **provide incentives for, and also for green** 

### 13 **standards.** 

### 14 **And then there's a series of** 

### 15 **questions that, hopefully today, will be** 

### 16 **answered as we go through the proceeding.** 

### 17 **Thank you.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 19 **Then additional comments, summary remarks here** 

### 20 **at the outset? Nothing additional at this** 

### 21 **time. I'm going to keep this moving along** 

### 22 **today, folks. Okay? So, stay with me.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 So, then we're going to go then to**  

### 2 **the presentation slides and we're going to** 

### 3 **hear from John Cymbalsky.** 

### 4 **(Off the record comments.)** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charles, are** 

### 6 **you going to do this first series of slides?** 

### 7 **Charles Llenza.** 

### 8 **MR. LLENZA: Okay. I am going to go** 

### 9 **over the Overview, Scope and Test Procedures.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're going to** 

### 11 **take a 10 minute break.** 

### 12 **(Whereupon, the proceedings went** 

### 13 **off the record at 9:23 a.m., and went back on** 

### 14 **the record at 9:36 a.m.)** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, we are** 

### 16 **going to proceed where we left off with** 

### 17 **Charles Llenza. And all of you have this** 

### 18 **information in this packet of PowerPoint** 

### 19 **slides.** 

### 20 **MR. LLENZA: Yes. I just want to** 

### 21 **go back to how to submit comments. I think we** 

### 22 **skipped over this too fast. It's important**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 that we submit the comments at least with a**  

### 2 **written number and a docket number so that we** 

### 3 **know where this comment is going, in** 

### 4 **particular. And here's a "how to submit** 

### 5 **comment" slide. We'll go over this again at** 

### 6 **the end of the presentation.** 

### 7 **Okay. So I am going to focus on** 

### 8 **an overview and a scope and give you an** 

### 9 **outline of the test procedures for the** 

### 10 **commercial refrigeration equipment. So the** 

### 11 **background for the current standards, EPACT** 

### 12 **2005 amended EPCA to prescribe standards for** 

### 13 **self-contained commercial refrigeration,** 

### 14 **freezers --** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: For those of you** 

### 16 **who are joining us for the first time for** 

### 17 **these meetings, this is very atypical. We did** 

### 18 **not experience this kind of technical glitch** 

### 19 **in the past. So hang with us.** 

### 20 **(Pause.)** 

### 21 **MR. LLENZA: We're getting there.** 

### 22 **Sorry. It takes a few minutes to upload.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 (Pause.)**  

### 2 **MR. LLENZA: Okay. Sorry for the** 

### 3 **interruption. Here we go again. So I was** 

### 4 **saying that EPACT 2005 amended EPCA to** 

### 5 **prescribe standards for self-contained** 

### 6 **commercial refrigeration, freezers, and** 

### 7 **refrigerator freezers with doors.** 

### 8 **EPACT 2005 also directed DOE to** 

### 9 **set standards by January 1st, 2009. We had a** 

### 10 **final rule January 9, 2009. And the** 

### 11 **compliance date was set for January 1st, 2012.** 

### 12 **The American Energy Manufacturing** 

### 13 **Technical Corrections Act amended EPCA also in** 

### 14 **December 2012 to prescribe standards for one** 

### 15 **class of commercial refrigeration equipment:** 

### 16 **the service over-the-counter, self-contained,** 

### 17 **medium-temperature equipment. And that was** 

### 18 **published in PL 112-210 December 18, 2012.** 

### 19 **We codified that On September 30, 2013.** 

### 20 **EPACT 2005 also directed DOE to** 

### 21 **determine whether to amend these standards** 

### 22 **from 2009. And the original date was set for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 January 1st, 2013, which we obviously have not**  

### 2 **made.** 

### 3 **Okay. We use the EPCA seven** 

### 4 **factors in terms of considering seven factors** 

### 5 **when setting energy conservation standards.** 

### 6 **These are the DOE drivers for the analysis in** 

### 7 **the TSD. And, as you can see, the EPCA** 

### 8 **factors are 1 through 7. And, as you can see,** 

### 9 **this is a corresponding analysis that DOE** 

### 10 **performs in order to satisfy those** 

### 11 **requirements.** 

### 12 **We have here the commercial** 

### 13 **refrigeration equipment rulemaking schedule.** 

### 14 **And obviously that schedule has been extended.** 

### 15 **But we have a projected final rule of** 

### 16 **February 2014 with a projected compliance date** 

### 17 **timeline of February 2017.** 

### 18 **Let me talk about the test** 

### 19 **procedures briefly. On December 8, 2006, we** 

### 20 **established a test procedure for commercial** 

### 21 **refrigeration equipment. And these had ARI**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 standard 1200-2006. Also, that references**  

### 2 **ASHRAE standard 72-2005 as the test method.** 

### 3 **DOE adopted AHAM standard HRF-1-** 

### 4 **2004 for measuring refrigerated compartment** 

### 5 **volume on December 8, 2006.** 

### 6 **This is the test procedure that is** 

### 7 **currently used by the manufacturers to** 

### 8 **demonstrate compliance and to make** 

### 9 **representations on the energy of the** 

### 10 **equipment. Okay.** 

### 11 **On February 21st, 2012, DOE issued** 

### 12 **a test procedure final rule for commercial** 

### 13 **refrigeration equipment, amending the** 

### 14 **procedure as established in 2006. You see the** 

### 15 **FR for reference here.** 

### 16 **This final rule made a number of** 

### 17 **amendments and updates, including updating the** 

### 18 **references to industry test procedures for** 

### 19 **their current versions, incorporating methods** 

### 20 **to evaluate the energy impacts resulting from** 

### 21 **the use of night curtains and lighting** 

### 22 **occupancy sensors, allowing testing of certain**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 commercial refrigeration equipment at the**  

### 2 **lowest temperature at which it is able to** 

### 3 **operate.** 

### 4 **These provisions were used in** 

### 5 **conjunction with any amended standards issued** 

### 6 **throughout the current rulemaking.** 

### 7 **We have been busy. So just** 

### 8 **recently, September 30th, the Department** 

### 9 **issued a test procedure NOPR for commercial** 

### 10 **refrigeration equipment. Due to the shutdown,** 

### 11 **we haven't been able to email blast everybody,** 

### 12 **but it's currently loaded on our website. And** 

### 13 **I've provided the link so that people can go** 

### 14 **to the link of the web page for further review** 

### 15 **and comment.** 

### 16 **We will conduct separate meetings** 

### 17 **for this test procedure. And in this test** 

### 18 **procedure NOPR, DOE proposes to revise and** 

### 19 **reorganize the test procedure for commercial** 

### 20 **refrigeration equipment and to clarify certain** 

### 21 **terms, procedures, and compliance dates; also** 

### 22 **address inquiries regarding the scope,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 definition, configuration of components and**  

### 2 **features during the testing, application of** 

### 3 **test procedure provisions, and the compliance** 

### 4 **dates for the TP provisions.** 

### 5 **So what we tried to do is improve** 

### 6 **because we had a series of feedback from the** 

### 7 **stakeholders and the manufacturers on our test** 

### 8 **procedure. And this test procedure** 

### 9 **modification, this notice of proposed** 

### 10 **rulemaking tries to address all these issues** 

### 11 **and make this a better test procedure.** 

### 12 **And, as you can see, we also have** 

### 13 **included some of the issues that a negotiated** 

### 14 **rulemaking process has brought up, including** 

### 15 **certification for commercial heating,** 

### 16 **ventilation, air conditioning, refrigeration,** 

### 17 **and water heating equipment.** 

### 18 **So that ends my part of the** 

### 19 **presentation here. Any questions at this** 

### 20 **point?** 

### 21 **(No response.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 MR. LLENZA: Okay. We're going to**  

### 2 **now proceed to the market and technology** 

### 3 **screening.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, do you** 

### 5 **have a question?** 

### 6 **MR. HON: Yes. I have several.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please use the** 

### 8 **microphone. Say your name for the record.** 

### 9 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True** 

### 10 **Manufacturing.** 

### 11 **I did look at your statements here** 

### 12 **and your proposed timeline. And there has** 

### 13 **been a recent set of negotiated settlement** 

### 14 **meetings, which are almost contradictory to** 

### 15 **this timeline because the due dates for** 

### 16 **implementation and reporting of a lot of this** 

### 17 **equipment are actually after the final rules** 

### 18 **here. And they are going to be in direct** 

### 19 **conflict to one another.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Jon Cymbalsky?** 

### 21 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So, as Charlie** 

### 22 **mentioned, we have been in a negotiated**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 rulemaking regarding the certification of**  

### 2 **commercial equipment, of which CRE is part.** 

### 3 **Okay. That's a separate rulemaking. And that** 

### 4 **deals with the certification of equipment** 

### 5 **that, in fact, already has standards on the** 

### 6 **books.** 

### 7 **Certification currently is not** 

### 8 **required. The compliance date, as you see** 

### 9 **here, is past 2017. My recollection of** 

### 10 **everything we talked about in the negotiations** 

### 11 **of your certification requirements were well** 

### 12 **ahead of that date for the current suite of** 

### 13 **equipment.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?** 

### 15 **MR. HON: Different timelines** 

### 16 **exist but definitely between one year and 18** 

### 17 **months after a final rule is completed. And** 

### 18 **that would be probably mid next year,** 

### 19 **hopefully the end of this year, but the way** 

### 20 **things are going in government, that would be** 

### 21 **at least the end of 2014 before those reports** 

### 22 **are going to be expected in.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. So a**  

### 2 **situation could exist where there are new** 

### 3 **standards and you still don't certify. Is** 

### 4 **that what you are pointing out?** 

### 5 **MR. HON: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie.** 

### 8 **Thank you for that. Okay.** 

### 9 **Additional comments here on the** 

### 10 **test procedure material that has just been** 

### 11 **presented? And let me remind those of you** 

### 12 **online you can raise your hand if you wish to** 

### 13 **speak.** 

### 14 **(No response.)** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then we're** 

### 16 **going to proceed. Collin Weber will be** 

### 17 **presenting.** 

### 18 **MR. WEBER: Good morning,** 

### 19 **everyone. I'm Collin Weber from Navigant. At** 

### 20 **this point, I would like to just start talking** 

### 21 **about the rulemaking analyses, start off with** 

### 22 **market and tech and screening in this section.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 So here is the tree just showing**  

### 2 **the interrelations between the various** 

### 3 **rulemaking analyses conducted. We're going to** 

### 4 **start talking about market and tech, then move** 

### 5 **into engineering, which feeds the downstream** 

### 6 **analyses. And we'll talk about those** 

### 7 **sequentially.** 

### 8 **So, to hop right in talking about** 

### 9 **the market assessment, we'll first talk about** 

### 10 **equipment classes and commercial refrigeration** 

### 11 **equipment. There are really two groups here** 

### 12 **that we are looking at in this rulemaking.** 

### 13 **There is the 2009 final rule equipment, which** 

### 14 **DOE covered, obviously, in that proceeding.** 

### 15 **DOE covered 38 classes and issued standards** 

### 16 **for them at that time- January 9 of 2009.** 

### 17 **DOE developed a nomenclature for** 

### 18 **naming commercial refrigeration equipment -** 

### 19 **for categorizing it. That nomenclature** 

### 20 **allowed for 48 named equipment classes. It** 

### 21 **broke the equipment down by three naming** 

### 22 **structure features, if you will. First is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 what are called equipment families, which is**  

### 2 **basically the geometry of the equipment; the** 

### 3 **function of the equipment.** 

### 4 **Second is the rating temperature:** 

### 5 **medium, which is anything that operates above** 

### 6 **32 Fahrenheit; low, which operates between 32** 

### 7 **and -5 Fahrenheit, and ice cream temperature** 

### 8 **equipment, which is below -5 Fahrenheit.** 

### 9 **Then, finally, DOE organizes** 

### 10 **equipment based on the configuration of the** 

### 11 **condensing unit. It's either remote** 

### 12 **condensing: running off a rack or a dedicated** 

### 13 **remote condenser; or a self-contained unit,** 

### 14 **where the condensing unit is integral to the** 

### 15 **machine.** 

### 16 **So that is the DOE 2009 rule** 

### 17 **equipment and nomenclature developed for that.** 

### 18 **The second group of equipment that is being** 

### 19 **looked at in today's proceeding is the EPACT** 

### 20 **2005 equipment.** 

### 21 **As Charlie mentioned, EPACT 2005** 

### 22 **set standards directly into code for five**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 specific groups of equipment. Those are self**  

### 2 **contained equipment with doors. They said,** 

### 3 **for example, self-contained refrigerators with** 

### 4 **transparent doors; self-contained freezers** 

### 5 **with transparent doors and so forth.** 

### 6 **DOE in this rulemaking has simply** 

### 7 **recategorized that equipment using its** 

### 8 **existing nomenclature so that we can talk** 

### 9 **about all of the equipment in a consistent** 

### 10 **manner. So, using DOE's equipment class** 

### 11 **nomenclature from the '09 rulemaking plus the** 

### 12 **addition of a pull-down equipment family,** 

### 13 **which is to preserve a distinction in the** 

### 14 **equipment that was created by EPACT 2005, the** 

### 15 **EPACT 2005 equipment was classified as 11** 

### 16 **additional named equipment classes in today's** 

### 17 **proceeding.** 

### 18 **So, for this rulemaking, if you** 

### 19 **add it up, DOE is looking at 49 covered** 

### 20 **classes. A full listing is shown in chapter** 

### 21 **3, "Market and Tech Assessment," of the NOPR** 

### 22 **technical support document.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 So, just to get everyone on the**  

### 2 **same page, I'll run through to just finish up** 

### 3 **talking about equipment classes here. These** 

### 4 **are the equipment families that DOE looks at.** 

### 5 **Vertical open, for example, these are your** 

### 6 **usual open display cases, multi-deck,** 

### 7 **vertical, dairy, deli, produce; semivertical** 

### 8 **open:angled cases, like you would see in a** 

### 9 **deli, for example. Horizontal open is coffin** 

### 10 **type with no lid; vertical closed transparent,** 

### 11 **glass door, reach-in-type; horizontal closed** 

### 12 **transparent, sliding-top freezers, sliding-top** 

### 13 **refrigerators; vertical closed solid, solid** 

### 14 **door reach-ins like you might see in a** 

### 15 **commercial kitchen. Horizontal closed solid,** 

### 16 **for example, most chest refrigerators, chest** 

### 17 **freezers; service over counter, which are deli** 

### 18 **cases generally with a curved-glass front; and** 

### 19 **then pull-down equipment, which comprises** 

### 20 **bottle coolers, so generally a glass-front** 

### 21 **piece of equipment that is a medium** 

### 22 **temperature and designed to rapidly chill non-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 perishable beverages down to purchasing**  

### 2 **temperature.** 

### 3 **So I mentioned operating** 

### 4 **temperature ranges for covered equipment.** 

### 5 **These are the rating temperatures, which is** 

### 6 **slightly nuanced. These are the temperatures** 

### 7 **that DOE will actually test equipment at. So** 

### 8 **these are the target temperatures for the test** 

### 9 **procedure, if you will.** 

### 10 **Thirty-eight is what medium** 

### 11 **temperature equipment is tested at. Low** 

### 12 **temperature freezers are tested at zero. Ice** 

### 13 **cream equipment is tested at -15 Fahrenheit;** 

### 14 **and then the operating code, remote condensing** 

### 15 **or self-contained equipment.** 

### 16 **So that is what we are going to** 

### 17 **speak about for the market assessment. Just a** 

### 18 **quick overview of the equipment classes. And** 

### 19 **then I'll move on to talking about the** 

### 20 **technology assessment here.** 

### 21 **So the purpose of the tech** 

### 22 **assessment is to develop a preliminary list of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 technology options that could potentially be**  

### 2 **used to improve the efficiency of the covered** 

### 3 **equipment.** 

### 4 **In this analysis, DOE casts a very** 

### 5 **broad net. It looks into every available** 

### 6 **source, every available technology.** 

### 7 **The list is then examined in** 

### 8 **greater detail in a screening analysis and the** 

### 9 **engineering analysis. And at those points,** 

### 10 **technology not deemed appropriate for a** 

### 11 **variety of reasons are removed.** 

### 12 **So the method used in the** 

### 13 **technology assessment is to identify** 

### 14 **technology options from sources, including** 

### 15 **literature review; academic; manufacturer** 

### 16 **literature; other entities; manufacturer** 

### 17 **literature, brochures, specification sheets;** 

### 18 **and always, obviously, comments and input from** 

### 19 **stakeholders, venues such as this.** 

### 20 **All the technology options are** 

### 21 **described in chapter 3 of the TSD, and we'll** 

### 22 **quickly reproduce them here. These are broken**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 out by the equipment types to which they might**  

### 2 **apply. Keep in mind again this is the first** 

### 3 **cut. This is just what DOE found. So** 

### 4 **consider for a variety of equipment classes as** 

### 5 **applicable, things like high-efficiency** 

### 6 **lighting; high-efficiency expansion valves;** 

### 7 **evaporator fan motor upgrades; evaporator fan** 

### 8 **controllers; fan blade improvements; improved** 

### 9 **coils; coil upgrades, specifically low** 

### 10 **pressure differential evaporators, where fin** 

### 11 **spacing design is such that it inhibits** 

### 12 **pressure drop across the evaporator; case** 

### 13 **insulation increases or improvements; defrost** 

### 14 **mechanisms, such as hot gas, for example;** 

### 15 **defrost cycle controls, such as sensors or** 

### 16 **learning-type controls; vacuum-insulated** 

### 17 **panels; and occupancy sensors for lighting.** 

### 18 **There are also some options that** 

### 19 **only potentially apply to specific types of** 

### 20 **equipment; for example, equipment having doors** 

### 21 **and in some cases specifically glass doors,** 

### 22 **talk about improved transparent doors, adding**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 another pane of glass, adding coatings, adding**  

### 2 **more effective gas fill; anti-fog films for** 

### 3 **transparent doors; and potentially anti-sweat** 

### 4 **heater controls.** 

### 5 **For equipment without doors, DOE** 

### 6 **looked at potentially improved air curtain** 

### 7 **designs and also night curtains, which are** 

### 8 **accommodated by the 2012 test procedure update** 

### 9 **that Charlie talked about.** 

### 10 **For self-contained equipment, DOE** 

### 11 **looked at higher-efficiency compressors,** 

### 12 **improvements to the condenser coil, variable** 

### 13 **speed condenser fan motors, liquid suction** 

### 14 **heat exchangers, higher-efficiency condenser** 

### 15 **fan motors, and potential improved condenser** 

### 16 **fan blade designs.** 

### 17 **So once the initial set of** 

### 18 **technologies is pulled from the literature and** 

### 19 **other sources, DOE then runs it by screening** 

### 20 **factors to cast aside some technologies which** 

### 21 **may not be applicable for a determined set of** 

### 22 **reasons that DOE always considers for the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 purpose: to determine which technology options**  

### 2 **will be considered downstream.** 

### 3 **Technology options are screened** 

### 4 **out or removed if they fail one of these four** 

### 5 **screening criteria: if they are not** 

### 6 **technologically feasible in today's** 

### 7 **environment; if they are not practicable to** 

### 8 **manufacture, install, and/or service; if they** 

### 9 **have adverse impacts on the utility to the** 

### 10 **consumer or availability to customers; or if** 

### 11 **they would have adverse impacts on health or** 

### 12 **safety, such as in this particular case** 

### 13 **potential reduction in the food safety** 

### 14 **viability of the refrigerator.** 

### 15 **16 MR. BROOKMAN: Question?**  

### 17 **MR. WEBER: Yes?** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs?** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. I** 

### 20 **may have missed it in the technical support** 

### 21 **document, but I think I caught that you did** 

### 22 **not consider, even to screen in initially,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 hydrocarbon refrigerants, particularly**  

### 2 **propane. It is my understanding that these** 

### 3 **are in use internationally. And if that is** 

### 4 **the case, this would seem to be another** 

### 5 **instance in which the Department has only** 

### 6 **looked at things in use in this country.** 

### 7 **Along the same time frame as we** 

### 8 **have had this proceeding, we have seen a SNAP** 

### 9 **proceeding at EPA that has allowed use of up** 

### 10 **to 150 grams of hydrocarbon refrigerant, which** 

### 11 **is quite enough for an awful lot of self** 

### 12 **contained equipment. We have seen** 

### 13 **manufacturer statements that this actually** 

### 14 **improves efficiency considerably. And I am** 

### 15 **just very concerned that this seems to have** 

### 16 **been screened out.** 

### 17 **If it's quite acceptable from** 

### 18 **health and safety aspects in other developed** 

### 19 **countries, it would seem to me that it at** 

### 20 **least warrants consideration here.** 

### 21 **Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Harvey.**  

### 2 **That's definitely been a point of discussion.** 

### 3 **And we are going to potentially solicit** 

### 4 **comment on refrigerants a little bit later.** 

### 5 **MR. SACHS: You will get it, sir.** 

### 6 **MR. WEBER: Thank you.** 

### 7 **So mentioning the screening** 

### 8 **analysis, DOE also removed from consideration** 

### 9 **at this point technologies that don't affect** 

### 10 **measured or calculated energy consumption as** 

### 11 **measured under the test procedure.** 

### 12 **So, for example, Jon McHugh** 

### 13 **mentioned in his presentation, a discussion of** 

### 14 **anti-sweat heater controllers, which operating** 

### 15 **at constant conditions generally aren't** 

### 16 **reflected. And that is an example right** 

### 17 **there.** 

### 18 **Full methodology & full results** 

### 19 **are discussed in chapter 4 of the TSD. So,** 

### 20 **for example, as I mentioned, technologies that** 

### 21 **were found do not affect calculated energy** 

### 22 **consumption under the test procedure are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 higher-efficiency expansion valves, condenser**  

### 2 **fan controllers, anti-sweat heater** 

### 3 **controllers, and liquid-suction heat** 

### 4 **exchangers.** 

### 5 **DOE also screened out any improved** 

### 6 **air curtain design because DOE could not find** 

### 7 **on the market a commercially viable improved** 

### 8 **air curtain design. There were just a few** 

### 9 **laboratory studies and that sort of thing, but** 

### 10 **that was screened out at this point.** 

### 11 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 12 **With respect to the air curtains, did you** 

### 13 **survey the international market?** 

### 14 **MR. WEBER: Not specifically, but** 

### 15 **we --** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. WEBER: -- surveyed the** 

### 18 **academic literature. Thank you.** 

### 19 **So, having discussed market and** 

### 20 **tech and screening, we would now like to move** 

### 21 **on to engineering, which is really the core of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 the analysis, where the performance and cost**  

### 2 **numbers are developed.** 

### 3 **Here you can see again the** 

### 4 **engineering analysis’ relation to the other** 

### 5 **analyses conducted.** 

### 6 **So at the highest level, the** 

### 7 **engineering analysis, this methodology really** 

### 8 **consists of these five steps. First, DOE** 

### 9 **chose primary equipment classes, which are** 

### 10 **equipment classes that we are specifically** 

### 11 **going to focus in on during the engineering** 

### 12 **analysis. Since DOE had named 49 covered** 

### 13 **classes, that is quite a bit to look at. DOE** 

### 14 **chose to focus its analysis on those which** 

### 15 **comprised the bulk of shipments and, thus, the** 

### 16 **bulk of energy consumption in order to** 

### 17 **streamline the analysis.** 

### 18 **The second step was to define for** 

### 19 **the purposes of analysis characteristics for** 

### 20 **each primary equipment class: representative** 

### 21 **models which would serve as the analysis** 

### 22 **point, the reference point that DOE was going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 to simulate and look at in order to assess**  

### 2 **baseline and improved energy consumption and** 

### 3 **cost levels.** 

### 4 **The third step was to identify and** 

### 5 **characterize design options, taking in what** 

### 6 **had been found in the technology assessment** 

### 7 **past the screening analysis, then feeding that** 

### 8 **in to identify design options which could be** 

### 9 **implemented in order to increase the** 

### 10 **efficiency of the equipment.** 

### 11 **The fourth step is to then** 

### 12 **actually model the equipment performance at** 

### 13 **each level of design option implementation,** 

### 14 **starting with the baseline, lowest efficiency,** 

### 15 **then stacking on design options to build** 

### 16 **hierarchically more efficient units, producing** 

### 17 **efficiency levels from the baseline, all the** 

### 18 **way up to maximum technologically feasible for** 

### 19 **each class.** 

### 20 **I think Bruce has a question.** 

### 21 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce Hierlmeier,** 

### 22 **Zero Zone. In that analysis, it looked like**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 you didn't use some of the technologies that**  

### 2 **we're required to use by the current** 

### 3 **rulemaking. You went all the way back to sort** 

### 4 **of previous versions, things with T8 lights,** 

### 5 **those types of things that are no longer sold** 

### 6 **in door cases anymore. They're all LEDs.** 

### 7 **Why did you not start in the** 

### 8 **middle? Why did you go all the way back to** 

### 9 **the beginning?** 

### 10 **MR. WEBER: Sure. So there are** 

### 11 **two points of clarification here. The first** 

### 12 **is that DOE does not have prescriptive** 

### 13 **standards for commercial refrigeration** 

### 14 **equipment. I mean, a manufacturer is allowed** 

### 15 **to use whatever mix of technologies and** 

### 16 **creative designs they can come up with in** 

### 17 **order to meet the efficiency level described.** 

### 18 **That's just to make everyone clear.** 

### 19 **Now, to actually speak to your** 

### 20 **question, the reason was at the time of the** 

### 21 **analysis, there was no one universal way in** 

### 22 **which manufacturers have been doing what I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 just described. Not everyone was getting to**  

### 2 **the 2009 standard levels for the EPACT 2005** 

### 3 **standard levels in the exact same way.** 

### 4 **So what we did was took it back to** 

### 5 **a very simple baseline and then added on** 

### 6 **technologies in increasingly or decreasingly** 

### 7 **attractive paybacks to then build up and** 

### 8 **through the existing standard levels and then** 

### 9 **on to higher efficiency levels. The** 

### 10 **Department felt that that was sort of a fair** 

### 11 **and unbiased way to look at things, rather** 

### 12 **than assuming one technology mix at a given** 

### 13 **time. That also allowed the analysis to** 

### 14 **reflect the current price data for those** 

### 15 **technology options. Thank you.** 

### 16 **So after modeling the equipment** 

### 17 **performance, the final step was that to tie** 

### 18 **that performance to cost levels, generate** 

### 19 **Manufacturer Production Costs for the** 

### 20 **representative units modeled at each level of** 

### 21 **efficiency baseline, all the way up to max** 

### 22 **tech and then apply markups to derive for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 manufacturer financial information as well as**  

### 2 **outbound shipping costs to the first point in** 

### 3 **the distribution chain, which is just, as a** 

### 4 **matter of practice included to develop** 

### 5 **Manufacturer Selling Prices.** 

### 6 **So we'll now go into depth on each** 

### 7 **step of the engineering analysis. The first** 

### 8 **step we mentioned was to select primary** 

### 9 **equipment classes. DOE selected these to be** 

### 10 **the subject of the detailed modeling in the** 

### 11 **engineering analysis. Out of the 49 covered** 

### 12 **equipment classes, 25 were selected as primary** 

### 13 **classes for analysis. These classes cover a** 

### 14 **great majority, off the top of my head** 

### 15 **probably 90-plus percent, of CRE units** 

### 16 **produced on a shipment volume basis.** 

### 17 **The remaining 24 classes are not** 

### 18 **analyzed directly through modeling in the** 

### 19 **engineering analysis but had proposed** 

### 20 **standards created through an additional** 

### 21 **extension analysis, which will be discussed in** 

### 22 **just a few minutes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 In this rulemakings analysis, we**  

### 2 **were consistent with what was done in the 2009** 

### 3 **methodology in terms of picking primary** 

### 4 **classes. And, in fact, all the classes that** 

### 5 **were considered to be primary in that** 

### 6 **rulemaking were retained and analyzed directly** 

### 7 **again in this rulemaking.** 

### 8 **The addition of more classes to be** 

### 9 **looked at was due to the fact that the EPACT** 

### 10 **2005 equipment was brought into scope during** 

### 11 **this proceeding. That is generally high** 

### 12 **shipment volume equipment. And, therefore,** 

### 13 **DOE looked at all those classes explicitly.** 

### 14 **So issue box here: seeking** 

### 15 **comment regarding the designation of primary** 

### 16 **and secondary equipment classes. A full list** 

### 17 **of those classes is available in the TSD.** 

### 18 **The Department will be happy to** 

### 19 **hear comments at this time, if there are any.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Primary and** 

### 21 **secondary equipment classes. Jon? Please use** 

### 22 **the microphone.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 MR. McHUGH: Jon McHugh. Could**  

### 2 **you identify what chapter or where the 25** 

### 3 **classes are listed?** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: The engineering** 

### 5 **analysis includes them. And it also includes** 

### 6 **the detailed results for each class. So that** 

### 7 **is chapter 5. Sorry.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: No additional** 

### 9 **comments here?** 

### 10 **MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman** 

### 11 **from National Refrigeration. One of the** 

### 12 **things that I haven't got any detail on but I** 

### 13 **think as far as when you look at commercial** 

### 14 **refrigeration equipment, there's within a** 

### 15 **category, understand that for take a simple** 

### 16 **self-contained closed-door model. As far as** 

### 17 **the applications, there are upright units,** 

### 18 **there are under-the-counter units that are** 

### 19 **used very differently and have very different** 

### 20 **characteristics as far as how they are** 

### 21 **constructed, which basically gets into kind of** 

### 22 **a subcategory of the overall equipment but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 that those types of equipment can have very**  

### 2 **different performance, very different** 

### 3 **characteristics.** 

### 4 **Is that being considered by the** 

### 5 **Department as far as the application and the** 

### 6 **type of product for particular applications?** 

### 7 **MR. WEBER: So the Department** 

### 8 **definitely realizes that there is a lot of** 

### 9 **variability. The Department tried to take** 

### 10 **that into account and balance accounting for** 

### 11 **equipment function with keeping the number of** 

### 12 **product classes reasonable.** 

### 13 **The Department certainly welcomes** 

### 14 **any comments on breakpoints or specific** 

### 15 **divisions of equipment that you might feel** 

### 16 **require a little more examination or thought.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments** 

### 18 **on the primary and secondary equipment** 

### 19 **classes?** 

### 20 **(No response.)** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 MR. WEBER: All right. Thanks,**  

### 2 **Doug.** 

### 3 **So next we would like to talk** 

### 4 **about the representative units which form the** 

### 5 **basis of the analysis. So for each primary** 

### 6 **equipment class analyzed, DOE defined a** 

### 7 **representative unit to serve as its analysis** 

### 8 **point for modeling. This is sort of a** 

### 9 **theoretical construct. It's a prototypical** 

### 10 **unit defined by a set of features for** 

### 11 **analytical purposes. It doesn't correspond to** 

### 12 **a specific manufacturer's model. It's sort of** 

### 13 **an average or aggregate of what the Department** 

### 14 **feels to be representative out on the market** 

### 15 **of a high-shipment volume, high-usage piece of** 

### 16 **equipment within a class.** 

### 17 **The representative unit is** 

### 18 **composed within the engineering model as a** 

### 19 **collection and a quantification of physical** 

### 20 **and design characteristics needed in order to** 

### 21 **develop an analytical model of the unit. I'll** 

### 22 **add a little reality to that on the next**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 slide, where we show what we're actually**  

### 2 **talking about.** 

### 3 **This includes physical, thermal,** 

### 4 **and electrical properties as well as the** 

### 5 **presence or absence of certain features on the** 

### 6 **unit that is being modeled. All of this data** 

### 7 **was pulled from product literature, catalogues** 

### 8 **,spec sheets and cut sheets, manufacturer** 

### 9 **interviews, reverse engineering, tear-downs** 

### 10 **that were conducted by DOE and its** 

### 11 **collaborators, and other sources.** 

### 12 **The full characteristics of the** 

### 13 **representative units chosen for analysis are** 

### 14 **included in 5A of the TSD. And the Department** 

### 15 **would definitely invite comment on those** 

### 16 **features and characteristics.** 

### 17 **So here is an example for one** 

### 18 **class of what we're talking about here. So** 

### 19 **we're looking at vertical open remote** 

### 20 **condenser medium temperature case - a typical** 

### 21 **dairy case, packaged meat case, produce case.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 So for analysis, in order to build**  

### 2 **a working analytical model of that equipment** 

### 3 **class at a representative analysis point, this** 

### 4 **lists the features that feed into the model** 

### 5 **that are specific to this class. There are** 

### 6 **also other general assumptions and general** 

### 7 **constants and that sort of thing to feed into** 

### 8 **the model. But for this class, this is what** 

### 9 **builds up the model of that particular unit,** 

### 10 **so the length of the case, the volume of the** 

### 11 **case, total display area, doors: obviously** 

### 12 **absent, wall area for calculating conduction** 

### 13 **through walls, a standard baseline insulation** 

### 14 **thickness, the interior surface area for doing** 

### 15 **calculations on radiation and that sort of** 

### 16 **thing, air curtain angle, infiltrated air mass** 

### 17 **flow for calculating the heat load into the** 

### 18 **case due to infiltration of warm air, and then** 

### 19 **a number of design features of this particular** 

### 20 **unit: lighting features, evaporator fan** 

### 21 **numbers and wattages, a discussion of the** 

### 22 **defrost mechanism. In this case on a medium-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 temperature, remote condensing case, you just**  

### 2 **have off-cycle defrost –so nothing active and** 

### 3 **other features.** 

### 4 **This set of characteristics is** 

### 5 **built up for each of the primary classes** 

### 6 **analyzed and served as the basis for modeling** 

### 7 **each of those classes.** 

### 8 **So there's not an explicit request** 

### 9 **for comment here, but I think this would be a** 

### 10 **good point to take comments.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert first and** 

### 12 **then to Bruce.** 

### 13 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,** 

### 14 **Danfoss. A little bit of a process question.** 

### 15 **I don't have a difference here of opinion,** 

### 16 **but you commented on the wide variability.** 

### 17 **And there were other comments here from** 

### 18 **National Refrigerants on the wide variability** 

### 19 **of commercial refrigeration products as** 

### 20 **compared to other types of products that DOE** 

### 21 **regulates. And here we're defining** 

### 22 **representative units, which makes sense, but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 this wide variation has some distribution**  

### 2 **maybe a normal distribution or whatever – of** 

### 3 **performance and energy use. And we pick a** 

### 4 **representative unit, but how do you use that** 

### 5 **representative unit to determine standards or** 

### 6 **requirements for those other models that may** 

### 7 **be out on either tail of that distribution or** 

### 8 **will you come back to that later?** 

### 9 **MR. WEBER: So, generally** 

### 10 **speaking, there is always an issue of** 

### 11 **classifying and there is always variation in** 

### 12 **the market. Generally speaking, the** 

### 13 **Department tried to construct units that were** 

### 14 **most representative and, thus, were able to** 

### 15 **capture the greatest majority possible of that** 

### 16 **equipment.** 

### 17 **With respect to size variations,** 

### 18 **that is built into the standard level** 

### 19 **equations, which will be discussed in a bit,** 

### 20 **and will certainly be open for comment. But** 

### 21 **that is obviously a topic which is wide open** 

### 22 **for comment where the Department would love to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 see input. So thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce?** 

### 3 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Could you share** 

### 4 **which units you tested your model against?** 

### 5 **Did you pull some from industry and then run** 

### 6 **some validation testing to prove your model's** 

### 7 **effective and correct?** 

### 8 **MR. WEBER: There were a few spot** 

### 9 **checks that were done. And also I would** 

### 10 **mention -- I haven't gotten to it yet in the** 

### 11 **slides -- that this model was an update to the** 

### 12 **same model that was used in the 2009** 

### 13 **rulemaking. So compliance with those** 

### 14 **standards sort of serves as a proof of** 

### 15 **concept: the fact that people are currently** 

### 16 **complying with standards that were, in fact,** 

### 17 **generated using this model.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: We have Joe Sanders** 

### 19 **from online ask a question: Are these** 

### 20 **representative units analytical, available for** 

### 21 **review?** 

### 22 **MR. WEBER: Yes. I would say to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 Joe absolutely, this is. For each of these**  

### 2 **equipment classes that was looked at, we have** 

### 3 **this full set of specifications in appendix 5A** 

### 4 **of the TSD. We invite everyone to look at** 

### 5 **what DOE was using as its assumptions for the** 

### 6 **geometry construction and feature sets of** 

### 7 **these equipment classes modeled.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs?** 

### 9 **MR. SACHS: Collin, this is Harvey** 

### 10 **Sachs. I'm just a little curious. You** 

### 11 **stated, if I heard correctly, that the model** 

### 12 **was validated by the compliance in 2012, of** 

### 13 **products that responded to that model. But I** 

### 14 **understood earlier that we don't have** 

### 15 **certification yet.** 

### 16 **MR. WEBER: Compliance and** 

### 17 **certification are not one and the same.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: I understand that, but** 

### 19 **I just fail to understand what level of** 

### 20 **intensity of product testing has been done to** 

### 21 **ensure compliance. That's an issue we have** 

### 22 **wrestled with all over summer.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky?**  

### 2 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So, as Collin** 

### 3 **stated, the fact that there is no requirement** 

### 4 **for certification does not mean that they are** 

### 5 **not required to meet the standards. And so we** 

### 6 **do test for that to make sure they meet the** 

### 7 **standards. We also test in the rulemaking.** 

### 8 **And the first thing we do when we** 

### 9 **get a unit to test is test it to see if it** 

### 10 **meets the standard. And if it passes, then we** 

### 11 **go play with it. We tear it down and build** 

### 12 **the model from there.** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Thank you, John.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional** 

### 15 **questions and comments at this stage?** 

### 16 **(No response.)** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. WEBER: All right. Thanks,** 

### 19 **Doug.** 

### 20 **So the third thing that we look at** 

### 21 **in the engineering analysis is the list of** 

### 22 **design options, feeding in from the technology**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 assessment and then through the screening**  

### 2 **analysis. So technologies coming out of the** 

### 3 **M&TA and passing screening were considered as** 

### 4 **the basis for design options in the** 

### 5 **engineering analysis.** 

### 6 **Now, some technologies that passed** 

### 7 **the screening analysis - that passed the four** 

### 8 **screening factors that DOE explicitly has to** 

### 9 **look at – were still found to be inapplicable** 

### 10 **to the engineering analysis and were not** 

### 11 **considered based on technical grounds. Those** 

### 12 **are discussed in full in the TSD.** 

### 13 **One example, just to throw one** 

### 14 **out, is, for example, using evaporator fan** 

### 15 **motor controllers, where the Department heard** 

### 16 **feedback that shutting off or controlling or** 

### 17 **slowing down evaporator fans could potentially** 

### 18 **lead to hot spot issues and food safety** 

### 19 **issues. So the Department for that technical** 

### 20 **reason did not consider it.** 

### 21 **Data was developed to characterize** 

### 22 **the performance of each design option that was**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 looked at in the engineering analysis that is**  

### 2 **specific to each of the technologies.** 

### 3 **Examples include the operational efficiencies** 

### 4 **of different motor types, how efficient a** 

### 5 **permanent magnet motor was assumed to be** 

### 6 **compared to a PSC motor or a shaded-pool** 

### 7 **motor; and the thermal properties of different** 

### 8 **styles of glass doors. Those are just two** 

### 9 **examples, full detail for each design option** 

### 10 **considered. And the features and the** 

### 11 **performance metrics and performance attributes** 

### 12 **are included in chapter 5 of the TSD.** 

### 13 **These data were all developed** 

### 14 **based on input from product literatures,** 

### 15 **interviews with manufacturers of commercial** 

### 16 **refrigeration equipment, and discussions with** 

### 17 **component supplies in some cases, and other** 

### 18 **publicly and privately available sources.** 

### 19 **Any questions or comments on** 

### 20 **design option selection? Full details are** 

### 21 **available in chapter 5 of the TSD and are** 

### 22 **definitely a welcome subject for written**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 comment.**  

### 2 **(No response.)** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: No questions or** 

### 4 **comments here.** 

### 5 **MR. WEBER: Okay. All right.** 

### 6 **Thank you.** 

### 7 **I guess I should have shown this** 

### 8 **before asking for comment. Engineering design** 

### 9 **options consider the model: higher efficiency** 

### 10 **lighting and occupancy sensors for all types** 

### 11 **of equipment that has lighting. It's split** 

### 12 **here for equipment that has horizontal** 

### 13 **fixtures. Those are multi-deck display cases,** 

### 14 **your vertical open, semivertical open, and** 

### 15 **service over-the-counter deli cases, and for** 

### 16 **equipment which has vertical features, which** 

### 17 **usually is a mullion-type fixture with two** 

### 18 **types of lighting, either T8 or LEDs. Those** 

### 19 **are your vertical closed, transparent, and** 

### 20 **pull-down equipment classes; improved** 

### 21 **evaporator coil design, higher-efficiency** 

### 22 **evaporator fan motors, improved case**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 insulation and vacuum-insulated panels. Those**  

### 2 **are just considered as one set of design** 

### 3 **options but with different levels; improved** 

### 4 **doors for vertical closed cases at low and ice** 

### 5 **cream temperatures; improved doors for** 

### 6 **vertical cases operating at medium** 

### 7 **temperature; improved doors, sliding doors,** 

### 8 **for horizontal cases operating at low and ice** 

### 9 **cream temperature; improved sliding horizontal** 

### 10 **doors at medium temperature; improved sliding** 

### 11 **back doors for deli cases at medium** 

### 12 **temperature; improved condenser coil designs,** 

### 13 **applicable, obviously, only to self-contained** 

### 14 **equipment; higher-efficiency condenser fan** 

### 15 **motors, also obviously only applicable to** 

### 16 **self-contained equipment; as well as higher** 

### 17 **efficiency compressors; and then night** 

### 18 **curtains applied to equipment without doors.** 

### 19 **So if that sparks any further comment, I would** 

### 20 **be glad to hear it.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce?** 

### 22 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce Hierlmeier.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 Did you compare these technologies to the**  

### 2 **technologies at the previous rulemaking? In** 

### 3 **other words, at the previous rulemaking, we** 

### 4 **had improved doors. So do you have now doors** 

### 5 **that you think are more improved than the** 

### 6 **previous set of improved doors?** 

### 7 **We haven't seen, you know, in our** 

### 8 **manufacturing a lot of technology** 

### 9 **improvements. Electronically commutated** 

### 10 **motors are the same electronically commutated** 

### 11 **motors they were in 2009. High-performance** 

### 12 **argon-filled doors are the same argon-filled** 

### 13 **doors we had in 2009. So we haven't seen any** 

### 14 **technology shifts of any great difference. In** 

### 15 **2009, we could have added a half-inch of** 

### 16 **insulation. We're no adding a vacuum panel** 

### 17 **for a half-inch.** 

### 18 **So did DOE make any comparison to** 

### 19 **determine what is different from those** 

### 20 **rulemakings? What technologies are now** 

### 21 **better, more efficient?** 

### 22 **MR. WEBER: Absolutely. DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 reviewed every single one of these**  

### 2 **technologies and didn't take anything for** 

### 3 **granted from the 2009 rulemaking. So, for** 

### 4 **example, you were talking about ECM still** 

### 5 **being the same. And, in fact, the Department** 

### 6 **found that to be the case. It used an** 

### 7 **efficiency of 66 percent in 2009, and it** 

### 8 **retained an efficiency based on talking to CRE** 

### 9 **manufacturers speaking with component** 

### 10 **suppliers and other sources. They retained** 

### 11 **that efficiency of input power shaft work of** 

### 12 **66 percent for this rulemaking. So that's one** 

### 13 **example right there.** 

### 14 **DOE reviewed every design option.** 

### 15 **And you'll see in the outcome that for the** 

### 16 **equipment that was covered in 2009, the** 

### 17 **improvement in the standard level that DOE** 

### 18 **found feasible is fairly small in many** 

### 19 **instances, reflecting exactly what you're** 

### 20 **talking about.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. Keep** 

### 22 **going, Bruce.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 MR. HIERLMEIER: I mean, one of**  

### 2 **the things we looked at is that -- again,** 

### 3 **we're not a door company. We don't make** 

### 4 **doors.** 

### 5 **MR. WEBER: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. HIERLMEIER: All of our** 

### 7 **equipment uses doors. The coolers, medium** 

### 8 **temperature coolers, have a reduction of 64** 

### 9 **percent in the energy level. And we kind of** 

### 10 **scratch our head and think, "Gee, that's not** 

### 11 **going to be attainable." So there we're** 

### 12 **looking at, you know, what technology has the** 

### 13 **DOE turned over that we're not aware of, that** 

### 14 **our competitors aren't aware of, that our** 

### 15 **customers aren't aware of that, all of a** 

### 16 **sudden, our equipment will be 64 percent more** 

### 17 **efficient?** 

### 18 **MR. WEBER: Are you speaking to** 

### 19 **self-contained equipment?** 

### 20 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Remote equipment.** 

### 21 **MR. WEBER: For mode equipment?** 

### 22 **So this is vertical closed transparent, medium**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 temperature?**  

### 2 **MR. HIERLMEIER: When you do the** 

### 3 **math, you shove on a TDA for an old formula,** 

### 4 **not shoving a TDA to the new formula, there's** 

### 5 **a 64 percent reduction in energy.** 

### 6 **MR. WEBER: I would have to double** 

### 7 **check that, but independent of that, what I** 

### 8 **would advise for you to do is check each of** 

### 9 **the assumptions on design option performance.** 

### 10 **So, obviously, with a vertical closed** 

### 11 **transparent equipment type, the doors are** 

### 12 **going to be a huge factor in how much energy,** 

### 13 **how much heat load is incidental upon the body** 

### 14 **of the case.** 

### 15 **So the door modeling if you want** 

### 16 **to speak to that directly was done using the** 

### 17 **LBNL Window 5 software and in conjunction with** 

### 18 **interviews of door manufacturers in** 

### 19 **conjunction with the walk-in cooler and** 

### 20 **freezer rule. So that modeling was done in** 

### 21 **isolation where doors were modeled explicitly** 

### 22 **and levels of door performance based on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 certain construction attributes, which are all**  

### 2 **listed in the TSD, were found to be feasible** 

### 3 **for that modeling.** 

### 4 **So what I would invite is just for** 

### 5 **you to look through each of the design** 

### 6 **options, the physical attributes that are** 

### 7 **assigned to them; for example, U factor front** 

### 8 **doors, and then make comments to those** 

### 9 **effects.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?** 

### 11 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True** 

### 12 **Manufacturing. You mentioned improved** 

### 13 **evaporator coils and also condenser coils in** 

### 14 **this list. Unfortunately, we have run a lot** 

### 15 **of tests which indicate that, yes, we can get** 

### 16 **higher-efficiency coils that work very well in** 

### 17 **the test lab, but when you put them in the** 

### 18 **field with the grease and the oils involved in** 

### 19 **the commercial kitchen, due to their** 

### 20 **structure, they clog up quite quickly and** 

### 21 **cause an actual negative impact onto the** 

### 22 **energy consumption.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 MR. WEBER: That's an excellent**  

### 2 **comment. And those are the sorts of factors,** 

### 3 **the specifics of those factors: where the** 

### 4 **breakpoint is, where the breakpoint on fin** 

### 5 **spacing or coil size or that sort of thing.** 

### 6 **Those are the exact sorts of things that the** 

### 7 **Department needs to hear.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: John?** 

### 9 **MR. McHUGH: So this may be** 

### 10 **repeating what you said earlier but just to,** 

### 11 **you know, some of the questions that Bruce has** 

### 12 **brought up. After putting together the** 

### 13 **designed model, did you guys actually build up** 

### 14 **some of these advanced – or not necessarily** 

### 15 **advanced but basically applying all of the** 

### 16 **technologies that you are proposing – and** 

### 17 **actually put them through the test method and** 

### 18 **see that, at least for some of these** 

### 19 **representative products, that indeed when you** 

### 20 **run it through the lab and you run the test** 

### 21 **procedure, that you actually get the numbers?** 

### 22 **MR. WEBER: So the DOE is not in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 the prototype construction business, but the**  

### 2 **model that was used was validated in the** 

### 3 **manner that was described previously. So we** 

### 4 **would feel that any extension of that to** 

### 5 **higher efficiency levels would be duly** 

### 6 **representative provided that those inputs for** 

### 7 **each of the efficiency levels were valid,** 

### 8 **which is what we're seeking comment on.** 

### 9 **MR. McHUGH: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bruce?** 

### 11 **MR. HIERLMEIER: At the previous** 

### 12 **rulemaking, DOE made available their** 

### 13 **spreadsheet that had all of the energy values** 

### 14 **and those items punched in so we could** 

### 15 **actually see how you developed when we get to** 

### 16 **the graphs, the numbers in there. Will that** 

### 17 **spreadsheet be available for us to review and** 

### 18 **study?** 

### 19 **MR. WEBER: It was not made** 

### 20 **available at this stage of the rulemaking.** 

### 21 **That's something that DOE could certainly take** 

### 22 **under advisement.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 MR. HIERLMEIER: In other words,**  

### 2 **you can't validate your numbers. You put a** 

### 3 **number in there for adding the LED lights with** 

### 4 **motion sensors. You save three, four percent.** 

### 5 **We think LEDs only drive three percent of the** 

### 6 **total energy use of the case. So turning them** 

### 7 **off for six hours isn't going to gain the** 

### 8 **value you indicate. So we need to get into** 

### 9 **the background of that number, then. How did** 

### 10 **you develop that value? So we do need to see** 

### 11 **your spreadsheets or we can't comment.** 

### 12 **MR. WEBER: Okay. That could be** 

### 13 **taken under advisement, although I would still** 

### 14 **suggest you look at the specific design option** 

### 15 **inputs; for example, where we list standard** 

### 16 **wattages of LED fixtures or standard times-off** 

### 17 **of motion sensors or that sort of thing. But** 

### 18 **we certainly take your comment under** 

### 19 **advisement.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe Sanders, who is** 

### 21 **joining us online, has a couple of questions.** 

### 22 **The first is, what is a higher-efficiency**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 compressor? And then what technology has**  

### 2 **improved compressor operation since the 2009-** 

### 3 **2011 analysis?** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: Okay. So for higher** 

### 5 **efficiency compressors, because of the nuances** 

### 6 **of the various compressor manufacturers, the** 

### 7 **DOE didn't get into the level of detail of** 

### 8 **looking at specific technological improvements** 

### 9 **or functions within the compressor. The** 

### 10 **Department, instead, asked industry based on** 

### 11 **past trends with the improvement of compressor** 

### 12 **performance what is seen as feasible going** 

### 13 **forward into the next iteration. And so this** 

### 14 **is a continuation of what was done in the** 

### 15 **previous rulemaking. A general market-vetted,** 

### 16 **industry-vetted assumption of a ten percent** 

### 17 **improvement in compressor EER being feasible** 

### 18 **across the board at a five percent cost** 

### 19 **premium was used based on the input that we** 

### 20 **got from the industry.** 

### 21 **Regarding the second question,** 

### 22 **what are seen as the improvements – that sort**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 of feeds into the same response. DOE didn't**  

### 2 **do tear-downs of specific compressors or** 

### 3 **really get into the componentry of** 

### 4 **compressors. We, instead, looked at market** 

### 5 **trends and compressor performance levels, as** 

### 6 **indicated by the publicly available compressor** 

### 7 **performance maps issued by the compressor** 

### 8 **manufacturers. All of those manufacturers** 

### 9 **make or the majority that I am aware of make** 

### 10 **their compressor maps available.** 

### 11 **Yes, Victor? MR. BROOKMAN:**  

### 12 **Victor?** 

### 13 **MR. V. ANDERSON: Victor Anderson.** 

### 14 **So I am a manufacturer of quite a few of** 

### 15 **these classes. And we use a lot of these** 

### 16 **technologies already in our designs, primarily** 

### 17 **the bigger hitters, including an energy** 

### 18 **efficient compressor. I am supposed to wait** 

### 19 **for technology to improve to see if I can sell** 

### 20 **product in 2017 based on just a rough trend?** 

### 21 **Is that what I am supposed to dobecause** 

### 22 **nothing else is improving. Hopefully**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 compressors will improve, but if there are no**  

### 2 **guarantees, how can I take that back.** 

### 3 **MR. WEBER: Well, the assumption** 

### 4 **for compressors of an improvement trend was** 

### 5 **based on discussions with the manufacturing** 

### 6 **community and the validation of the** 

### 7 **manufacturing community, who the Department** 

### 8 **feels to be the real experts on this. So if** 

### 9 **you feel that that trend won't continue, if** 

### 10 **you feel that is not a valid assumption, we** 

### 11 **invite that comment.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. WEBER: And, to speak to your** 

### 14 **first point, it is taken into consideration** 

### 15 **that what we're talking about here isn't for** 

### 16 **today. It is for, as you mentioned, 2017. So** 

### 17 **that plays into it also.** 

### 18 **Yes, Steve?** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 20 **MR. COUSINS: Steve Cousins, Coca** 

### 21 **Cola. So you say it plays into consideration** 

### 22 **that we are looking at 2017, but it is also my**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 understanding that the numbers that are**  

### 2 **proposed are based on what is available with** 

### 3 **current technology, not technology that** 

### 4 **doesn't exist as yet. And that is what** 

### 5 **factors into the decisions or the** 

### 6 **recommendations.** 

### 7 **I look at, for example, the** 

### 8 **various TSLs that are here and for the class** 

### 9 **of equipment that my company purchases. It** 

### 10 **looks like TSL level 4 is what applies to the** 

### 11 **vertical self-contained medium-temperature** 

### 12 **cabinets and the pull-down cabinets. And the** 

### 13 **thresholds that are recommended are based on** 

### 14 **technology that currently exists is a charge** 

### 15 **of what you are doing here is my** 

### 16 **understanding.** 

### 17 **Given that, I don't believe these** 

### 18 **levels are technologically feasible. I think** 

### 19 **it is impossible using current technology to** 

### 20 **achieve the thresholds that are listed here in** 

### 21 **the recommendation. And in our laboratories,** 

### 22 **we take all current available technology, and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 we attempt to make the most efficient cabinets**  

### 2 **that we can so we can turn over to our** 

### 3 **manufacturers the standards that they can** 

### 4 **follow.** 

### 5 **I don't believe that these numbers** 

### 6 **are technologically feasible. And I am** 

### 7 **speaking very specifically here. I am talking** 

### 8 **about the covered class for pull-down cabinets** 

### 9 **that are self-contained, medium-temperature.** 

### 10 **MR. WEBER: Sure.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Victor?** 

### 12 **MR. V. ANDERSON: Victor Anderson.** 

### 13 **We have roughly over 400 different models.** 

### 14 **So in order for us to meet 2017 levels, we** 

### 15 **almost have to start engineering,** 

### 16 **reengineering, redesigning, retesting** 

### 17 **everything three years ago to meet that. And** 

### 18 **if that compressor isn't available today, that** 

### 19 **is a major issue we have no way to design, no** 

### 20 **way to know. And that speaks not only to** 

### 21 **compressors but all of the technology** 

### 22 **improvements that you have listed. I don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 even know of a reasonably costed variable**  

### 2 **speed drive for a condenser motor for a self** 

### 3 **contained unit. So those are issues that we** 

### 4 **have.** 

### 5 **MR. WEBER: Well, with respect to** 

### 6 **your engineering design costs, those are** 

### 7 **definitely things that we look at in the** 

### 8 **manufacturer impact analysis. So that's** 

### 9 **definitely an area where we would like that** 

### 10 **feedback and especially quantitated feedback.** 

### 11 **And then with respect to the** 

### 12 **technological feasibility of certain design** 

### 13 **options and the parameters defining them,** 

### 14 **absolutely. I mean, all comments on those** 

### 15 **parameters, performance levels, cost levels,** 

### 16 **which we'll get into in a minute, are welcomed** 

### 17 **at this stage, of course.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Chris?** 

### 19 **MR. THOMPSON: Chris Thompson** 

### 20 **here.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 MR. THOMPSON: A question. You**  

### 2 **mentioned earlier that when you did the** 

### 3 **simulation analysis, by utilizing all of these** 

### 4 **technologies, either in lump total or in** 

### 5 **various subcategories, --** 

### 6 **MR. WEBER: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. THOMPSON: -- that you came** 

### 8 **out with a recommendation that it is feasible,** 

### 9 **these levels that have been proposed.** 

### 10 **MR. WEBER: Yes.** 

### 11 **MR. THOMPSON: When you did that** 

### 12 **analysis, you focused, obviously, on the** 

### 13 **rating point, as described earlier. Did you** 

### 14 **look at any off conditions?** 

### 15 **MR. WEBER: So DOE only tests and** 

### 16 **certifies and verifies and assesses units at** 

### 17 **the DOE test procedure conditions. Therefore,** 

### 18 **the applicable metric is measured daily energy** 

### 19 **consumption at those conditions. So that's,** 

### 20 **therefore, also what was modeled.** 

### 21 **MR. THOMPSON: All right. And,** 

### 22 **just a follow-on comment, I understand what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 you said. And I think one concern I have got**  

### 2 **is, you know, one of the elements is that** 

### 3 **there is improved evaporator coil design.** 

### 4 **That is a very generic term.** 

### 5 **MR. WEBER: Absolutely.** 

### 6 **MR. THOMPSON: And we can make** 

### 7 **evaporator coils that do wonderful things and** 

### 8 **then freeze like a big, thick block of ice in** 

### 9 **seconds, and that ultimately doesn't serve the** 

### 10 **purpose of the product.** 

### 11 **So I think my question revolves** 

### 12 **around, are any of these elements or factors,** 

### 13 **not only on coil design but any of these** 

### 14 **technologies, being considered or is it simply** 

### 15 **at a singular point, how good can I be?** 

### 16 **MR. WEBER: Well, the actual** 

### 17 **modeling is conducted at a simulation of the** 

### 18 **DOE test procedure conditions. So that is** 

### 19 **where the actual numbers came from because,** 

### 20 **when people build these and they go and** 

### 21 **certify and they test them, that is what the** 

### 22 **apples to apples will be.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 Now, that said, if there are**  

### 2 **issues that are issues of reliability,** 

### 3 **feasibility or utility: where something, even** 

### 4 **though they might perform well at the DOE test** 

### 5 **condition, could introduce those issues, then** 

### 6 **if you can specifically and quantifiably** 

### 7 **identify those, that would be something of** 

### 8 **value.** 

### 9 **So, like I said earlier, if you** 

### 10 **get your fin pitch up to ten per inch or** 

### 11 **something and that works great in the lab or** 

### 12 **right off the assembly line but it's going to** 

### 13 **clog in a week out on the floor in real use,** 

### 14 **then that is something that DOE would take** 

### 15 **under advisement.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: This gentleman.** 

### 17 **Get to the microphone, please. Say your name.** 

### 18 **MR. MOORE: Frank Moore,** 

### 19 **representing NAAFEM, North American** 

### 20 **Association of Food Equipment Manufacturers.** 

### 21 **This may be redundant, and I'm sorry. I'm the** 

### 22 **nontechnical guy here in the back. But does**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 the Department list anywhere in the technical**  

### 2 **documents the technology that is assumed to** 

### 3 **exist in 2017 per category of equipment you** 

### 4 **all are creating for each of the elements that** 

### 5 **go into that equipment? Is that available or** 

### 6 **is it incumbent upon commenters to identify** 

### 7 **that technology for you?** 

### 8 **MR. WEBER: So in order to pass** 

### 9 **the tech assessment, the screening, and get** 

### 10 **considered in the engineering analysis, it has** 

### 11 **to be assumed or otherwise agreed upon as** 

### 12 **feasible and as existing, specifically** 

### 13 **screening criteria practical to manufacture,** 

### 14 **install, and service at the time when the rule** 

### 15 **goes into effect. So it is assumed that** 

### 16 **everything looked at here will, in fact,** 

### 17 **exist.** 

### 18 **MR. MOORE: Are you listing that** 

### 19 **technology --** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please get to the** 

### 21 **microphone.** 

### 22 **MR. MOORE: -- existed then?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 MR. WEBER: Yes. Every technology**  

### 2 **considered is listed.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Aris, do you wish** 

### 4 **to comment here, Aris Marantan?** 

### 5 **MR. MARANTAN: Aris Marantan,** 

### 6 **Navigant. I just want to reiterate I think** 

### 7 **what you are asking is, are the technologies** 

### 8 **that we have recommended listed for each** 

### 9 **equipment class. And the answer is yes, they** 

### 10 **are listed in the technical support document.** 

### 11 **And I believe a really detailed listing of** 

### 12 **tables is in appendix 5A of the TSD.** 

### 13 **MR. WEBER: It is actually just in** 

### 14 **chapter 5 this time around. We will get to** 

### 15 **cost-efficiency curves in a minute, but the** 

### 16 **cost-efficiency curves show each technology,** 

### 17 **each design option for each class that is** 

### 18 **considered.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: In a little bit** 

### 20 **here, we are going to take a break. And I** 

### 21 **made sure that we have the full technical** 

### 22 **support document here, all several hundred**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 pages of it. So anybody at the break can look**  

### 2 **at this and compare notes with the analysts.** 

### 3 **I saw Bruce first and then to Jon.** 

### 4 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce Hierlmeier.** 

### 5 **Just one concern is, you asked for detailed** 

### 6 **information. Then all of our competitors get** 

### 7 **to read our detailed information. You know,** 

### 8 **so if we talk about, "Well, we tried a six-fin** 

### 9 **pitch coil, and it failed miserably" or "Our** 

### 10 **cost to change foam fixtures eventually is a** 

### 11 **million dollars. And it will take 12 months** 

### 12 **of down times," well, there's a number of** 

### 13 **people in this room that would love to know** 

### 14 **that information in a competitive marketplace.** 

### 15 **MR. WEBER: There are ways that we** 

### 16 **can deal with that. I'll let DOE GC, and** 

### 17 **Navigant GC, or MIA teams speak to that, but** 

### 18 **there are ways that that can --** 

### 19 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Because I think** 

### 20 **in the standard currently, it said if any** 

### 21 **comment is submitted, you have to consider** 

### 22 **them public knowledge.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. WEBER: There is a caveat on** 

### 3 **that, which Chris or DOE GC can --** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky?** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: We can sign an NDA** 

### 6 **with Navigant and provide information that** 

### 7 **will not be seen by the government. We can** 

### 8 **use it in the rulemaking. We can roll it up** 

### 9 **so that it will be masked with the rest of the** 

### 10 **industry data. And we won't know the** 

### 11 **particular company who submitted it.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon?** 

### 13 **MR. McHUGH: So this question goes** 

### 14 **back to Victor. You described something about** 

### 15 **variable-speed drives being used for** 

### 16 **something. I'm not aware that variable-speed** 

### 17 **drives are required in the standard. So could** 

### 18 **you clarify what you had meant earlier?** 

### 19 **MR. V. ANDERSON: I thought that** 

### 20 **was one of the options that were listed. I** 

### 21 **thought I heard that.** 

### 22 **MR. WEBER: Just to be clear,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 variable-speed evaporator fan motors were**  

### 2 **thrown out --** 

### 3 **MR. V. ANDERSON: Right.** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: -- because of the** 

### 5 **potential food safety issue. Variable-speed** 

### 6 **condenser fan motors were thrown out because** 

### 7 **of the fact that they won't have any impact on** 

### 8 **measured energy consumption of the test** 

### 9 **procedure because they're under steady-state** 

### 10 **conditions cycling.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, we're coming** 

### 12 **back to you.** 

### 13 **MR. COUSINS: Yes. Steve Cousins,** 

### 14 **Coca-Cola. All right. I am very polarized in** 

### 15 **what I am looking at here. My company, in the** 

### 16 **United States at least, purchases tens of** 

### 17 **thousands of commercial refrigerators for** 

### 18 **additional placement, every year. We have** 

### 19 **close to a million of these things placed in** 

### 20 **the United States. And we have purchased** 

### 21 **hundreds of thousands globally and for** 

### 22 **placement every year.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 My statement here is -- and I am**  

### 2 **very polarized in what I am saying because I** 

### 3 **am specifically looking at vertical self** 

### 4 **contained medium-temperature cabinets either** 

### 5 **for maintenance temperature or for pull-down** 

### 6 **applications -- I notice that TSL level 4 is** 

### 7 **what is being recommended.** 

### 8 **–We have determined in our** 

### 9 **engineering laboratories, you can use the best** 

### 10 **of what is available in all of these** 

### 11 **technologies. And you will not be able to** 

### 12 **build a cabinet that will hit these numbers,** 

### 13 **considering what it is that we are trying to** 

### 14 **do with our product.** 

### 15 **What we try to do is, a lot of our** 

### 16 **applications are pull-down applications. We** 

### 17 **are taking beverage from room temperature to** 

### 18 **some service temperature within a day. We** 

### 19 **want to maintain the correct temperatures for** 

### 20 **health reasons because we do inventory** 

### 21 **perishable products. And we find that if you** 

### 22 **don't merchandise a product, you won't sell**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 the product. So there have to be some lights**  

### 2 **there so that our commercial accounts can make** 

### 3 **money by selling our beverages.** 

### 4 **Now, if you take the standards** 

### 5 **that are in place, the mandatory standards,** 

### 6 **for health and with regard to merchandising on** 

### 7 **pull-down units, if you want to achieve all of** 

### 8 **the things that are necessary to do business,** 

### 9 **it is impossible to hit these numbers given** 

### 10 **what technology is available today.** 

### 11 **I don't know what might exist** 

### 12 **three years from now, but given the best of** 

### 13 **what is available today, you cannot achieve** 

### 14 **these numbers in TSL level 4.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky?** 

### 16 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So, Steve, thanks** 

### 17 **for that comment. I'm assuming you're** 

### 18 **sourcing different components of the cabinet** 

### 19 **and then putting them together into whatever** 

### 20 **it is you are developing. Did you go to your** 

### 21 **vendors and ask them to design things that** 

### 22 **could be better or did you say, "Just give me**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 the best you've got"?**  

### 2 **MR. COUSINS: We design cabinets** 

### 3 **ourselves - our engineering staff - and we** 

### 4 **turn the specifications over to our vendors,** 

### 5 **the appliance manufacturers, around the world.** 

### 6 **We are constantly looking at what** 

### 7 **technology is most available, the best** 

### 8 **technology that is available. And we are also** 

### 9 **at the same time asking our vendors to produce** 

### 10 **equipment that will meet certain standards for** 

### 11 **us. So we like to believe that we stay on the** 

### 12 **cutting edge of technology because we're** 

### 13 **constantly looking to put cabinets out that** 

### 14 **achieve the best energy efficiency. And the** 

### 15 **reason for that is because not only do we** 

### 16 **purchase these cabinets, we actually pay the** 

### 17 **cost of energy indirectly for many of our** 

### 18 **commercial accounts.** 

### 19 **We negotiate. Our customers know** 

### 20 **how much it takes to operate the equipment.** 

### 21 **So they don't want to pay the energy cost.** 

### 22 **They want for us to pay the energy cost. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 we'll do that, but it's negotiated indirectly**  

### 2 **through the cost of our product and other** 

### 3 **issues.** 

### 4 **But, for those reasons, we want to** 

### 5 **achieve the lowest energy possible with what** 

### 6 **we're trying to do to conduct business.** 

### 7 **We ask our vendors, our cabinet** 

### 8 **makers, to continue to strive to reduce** 

### 9 **energy. And we at the same time are looking** 

### 10 **at doing that as well.** 

### 11 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Right.** 

### 12 **MR. COUSINS: And we do it with** 

### 13 **not just the technology that is available** 

### 14 **today but even technology that doesn't exist** 

### 15 **today because we are looking to change over** 

### 16 **the refrigerants. We're looking to get out of** 

### 17 **HFCs and to go to R744 and R290 and 600A** 

### 18 **because we are looking for our cabinets not** 

### 19 **just to be energy-efficient but to be totally** 

### 20 **environmentally benign. So we do that, and we** 

### 21 **charge our appliance manufacturers to do the** 

### 22 **same.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 MR. WEBER: Doug, I have a**  

### 2 **suggestion. Perhaps before we take further** 

### 3 **comment. I think it might help facilitate** 

### 4 **good comments if maybe we could get to the** 

### 5 **portions where we talk about the model, --** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. WEBER: -- analytical model** 

### 8 **and what feeds into it.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: I have a couple of** 

### 10 **additional quick comments here. Tim and then** 

### 11 **Charlie? But I like your thought process. Go** 

### 12 **ahead, Tim.** 

### 13 **MR. T. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson,** 

### 14 **Hussmann. Are any of the technology options** 

### 15 **for the given equipment classes evaluated or** 

### 16 **screened out based on potential adverse** 

### 17 **effects on the end users? In particular, the** 

### 18 **class that Bruce Hierlmeier was speaking of** 

### 19 **earlier, the VTC RCM, the high-efficiency door** 

### 20 **option assumes a triple pane glass door with a** 

### 21 **low-e coating and inert gas fill. You know,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 the effect that that would have on the end**  

### 2 **users is not insignificant.** 

### 3 **And I think what the Department** 

### 4 **may be missing is that if you force** 

### 5 **manufacturers to use design options like that,** 

### 6 **which alone I don't think that the level is** 

### 7 **even attainable by using those doors, but that** 

### 8 **is just an aside, what you will do is you will** 

### 9 **drive the end users to continue to use open** 

### 10 **equipment, which uses 75 percent more energy** 

### 11 **than the closed equipment will. I mean, in a** 

### 12 **lot of applications, those two equipment** 

### 13 **classes are in direct competition with each** 

### 14 **other.** 

### 15 **And so I would like to hear a** 

### 16 **comment on, you know, are the technology** 

### 17 **options evaluated for adverse effects on the** 

### 18 **end users?** 

### 19 **MR. WEBER: So, I mean, per** 

### 20 **screening, we evaluate them for these effects,** 

### 21 **which include end user effects. But when** 

### 22 **you're talking about product switching, that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 would be a high-level policy that I'm not**  

### 2 **going to speak to specifically, but what I** 

### 3 **will say is that standards are developed for** 

### 4 **each class in isolation at the level which is** 

### 5 **most practical or found to be most** 

### 6 **technologically feasible and economically** 

### 7 **justified for that class. So there should not** 

### 8 **theoretically be a class which is under** 

### 9 **regulated compared to another.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?** 

### 11 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True** 

### 12 **Manufacturing. John, you had asked about back** 

### 13 **and forth, Coca-Cola and some of their** 

### 14 **suppliers. Coca-Cola is in constant contact** 

### 15 **with us. We are in constant contact with** 

### 16 **Coca-Cola. Any possible way to reduce energy** 

### 17 **costs, Coca-Cola is interested in it. So** 

### 18 **anything we have run across, they know about** 

### 19 **it. And they are very concerned about that** 

### 20 **basic idea.** 

### 21 **So I think that anything we would** 

### 22 **find, they would know. And then anything they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 would find, we would know.**  

### 2 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you.** 

### 3 **I guess my question was that if** 

### 4 **you gave your vendors or your designers these** 

### 5 **equations that are presented in the proposal,** 

### 6 **is what Steve said, that they are unattainable** 

### 7 **with just what he can get his hands on today,** 

### 8 **or are they -- I mean, he used the term "best** 

### 9 **available," which means something a little** 

### 10 **different than what is attainable by some R&D** 

### 11 **or some extra investment by the compressor** 

### 12 **manufacturer.** 

### 13 **So Collin's comment was that the** 

### 14 **compressor manufacturer said that for a five** 

### 15 **percent adder, you can get ten percent more** 

### 16 **efficiency from where they are today. So they** 

### 17 **could theoretically through that comment go** 

### 18 **further than what may be -- and I don't know** 

### 19 **if what I described is what Steve described.** 

### 20 **I think we were talking a little past each** 

### 21 **other in the beginning. But the question is:** 

### 22 **is the equation undoable or is it just based**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 on what is off the shelf today undoable? That**  

### 2 **is what I was kind of getting at.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?** 

### 4 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True** 

### 5 **Manufacturing. The equations as placed today** 

### 6 **on a pull-down-type refrigerator, we have run** 

### 7 **some numbers on things that we see. And if we** 

### 8 **had everything maximized, there may be one or** 

### 9 **two boxes that we could build.** 

### 10 **Because there are inherently sweet** 

### 11 **spots; if you have a compressor that covers a** 

### 12 **range of sizes of a cabinet, that compressor** 

### 13 **will be maximized at some point in that range.** 

### 14 **It will be less efficient, covering the** 

### 15 **outliers of that range.** 

### 16 **If we would hit the sweet spot,** 

### 17 **the sweetest of sweet spots, we might be able** 

### 18 **to make one, but it would not be a pull-down** 

### 19 **cabinet. It would be a temperature-holding** 

### 20 **cabinet. That is the best that we have seen.** 

### 21 **A pull-down cabinet, we do not** 

### 22 **find anything. With all of the technologies,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 and we get prototypes of compressors all of**  

### 2 **the time to test, we have not seen a** 

### 3 **compressor that will give us pull-down** 

### 4 **capabilities and meet this standard.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert first and** 

### 6 **then to Bob.** 

### 7 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,** 

### 8 **Danfoss. We make compressors, not in this,** 

### 9 **but I have been in the compressor industry for** 

### 10 **40 years. The thing that I find surprising is** 

### 11 **the assumption that you can get a ten percent** 

### 12 **efficiency improvement for five percent in** 

### 13 **cost. If that is possible, why hasn't that** 

### 14 **already happened? That sounds like a no** 

### 15 **brainer to me.** 

### 16 **So I would urge you when something** 

### 17 **sounds too good to be true, to please check it** 

### 18 **and when you find those sorts of** 

### 19 **possibilities, help these manufacturers find** 

### 20 **them because if it's too good to be true, it** 

### 21 **might be too good to be true.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is it Jeff?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff?** 

### 3 **MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman** 

### 4 **from National. John, I just want to clarify** 

### 5 **that at standard level 4, when we're talking** 

### 6 **about compressors, they are based on not just** 

### 7 **currently available products but on what** 

### 8 **interviews with compressor manufacturers have** 

### 9 **said is feasible at a five percent increase.** 

### 10 **I mean, I think going back to that, assuming** 

### 11 **that that is a correct statement -- I am sure** 

### 12 **John will correct me if that is incorrect --** 

### 13 **to meet standards by 2017, manufacturers can't** 

### 14 **wait around, as you have heard here, obviously** 

### 15 **can't wait around for the compressors to** 

### 16 **become available, then change them and do all** 

### 17 **the testing and everything in our products.** 

### 18 **I mean, I have heard a couple of** 

### 19 **hundred units we have -- I know other** 

### 20 **manufacturers here have literally thousands of** 

### 21 **units and thousands of models that have to** 

### 22 **meet the requirements. I mean, it seems**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 impractical that to develop standards, even**  

### 2 **five years down the road, based on components** 

### 3 **that are not currently available. So I want** 

### 4 **to put that comment.** 

### 5 **Just a couple of quick things I** 

### 6 **wanted to comment on also. As Steve** 

### 7 **mentioned, with beverage products and things,** 

### 8 **I think the the test standards that are out** 

### 9 **there for energy continue to give us concerns.** 

### 10 **I would be interested in whether DOE can** 

### 11 **comment on whether the modeling for cabinet** 

### 12 **performance, temperature performance,** 

### 13 **temperature holding is or was considered at** 

### 14 **other temperatures, for instance, in NSF for** 

### 15 **food service equipment -- obviously safety and** 

### 16 **food safety is a concern. Whether those were** 

### 17 **modeled, obviously you have differences in** 

### 18 **performance and things like that with** 

### 19 **different fan motors and such that can affect** 

### 20 **and evaporator designs that can affect the** 

### 21 **performance of a product at 100 degrees versus** 

### 22 **a 75-degree temperature for energy. I mean,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 we are very concerned that products are being**  

### 2 **pushed and developed more for holding at a** 

### 3 **specific energy level at a specific** 

### 4 **temperature and conditions versus looking at** 

### 5 **both sides of that. And to us the performance** 

### 6 **at 100-degree in a hot kitchen is more** 

### 7 **significant. So I would be interested also in** 

### 8 **any comment from DOE on that.** 

### 9 **MR. WEBER: So DOE only conducted** 

### 10 **modeling at the conditions at which the units** 

### 11 **would be rated to give results that are one to** 

### 12 **one. Now, that doesn't inherently imply lack** 

### 13 **of performance at other conditions or absence** 

### 14 **of performance at other conditions. It just** 

### 15 **implies that we are modeling what we will be** 

### 16 **testing so we have our results. And then five** 

### 17 **years from now or six years from now, we will** 

### 18 **have results and be able to line them up.** 

### 19 **Now, as I mentioned previously on** 

### 20 **some topics, such as coil and that sort of** 

### 21 **thing, if there are issues where improving** 

### 22 **energy efficiency at the DOE test condition**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 would preclude performance and create an issue**  

### 2 **of practicability to manufacturer's level of** 

### 3 **service, adverse impacts on a utility or** 

### 4 **availability, or adverse impacts on health and** 

### 5 **safety at operational conditions, aside from** 

### 6 **DOE test procedure, then that is something** 

### 7 **that the Department would obviously want to** 

### 8 **hear and take under advisement.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert? Sorry.** 

### 10 **John?** 

### 11 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So an example of** 

### 12 **that would be the comment about the triple** 

### 13 **glazed doors. So I am assuming it's the** 

### 14 **weight that is the issue you are bringing up.** 

### 15 **MR. WEBER: He just said product** 

### 16 **switching.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Tim?** 

### 18 **MR. T. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson.** 

### 19 **It's the display of the product. These are** 

### 20 **merchandisers. They're not storage cabinets.** 

### 21 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So you can't see** 

### 22 **through three panes? Is that the idea?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 MR. T. ANDERSON: No, no.**  

### 2 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. T. ANDERSON: Particularly** 

### 4 **with a low-e coating. Low-e coatings** 

### 5 **inherently have a tint to them. It looks like** 

### 6 **a tinted glass on your car. And the** 

### 7 **manufacturers that it's their job to sell the** 

### 8 **food will definitely opt for having an open** 

### 9 **case versus a case with tinted doors where** 

### 10 **consumers cannot see the product behind it.** 

### 11 **12 MR. WEBER: My understanding is**  

### 13 **that triple pane low-e is currently in use in** 

### 14 **freezer cases. Is that the case?** 

### 15 **MR. T. ANDERSON: Tim Anderson. I** 

### 16 **believe it's used in places in freezer cases.** 

### 17 **In medium-temperature cases, it is used** 

### 18 **almost nowhere.** 

### 19 **MR. WEBER: Okay. But the** 

### 20 **technology has been proven in the field. And** 

### 21 **customers still continue to buy out of those** 

### 22 **freezer cases. Correct?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: I am going to let**  

### 2 **Steve follow on, Robert. Then I'm coming back** 

### 3 **to you. Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. COUSINS: Yes. Steve Cousins,** 

### 5 **Coca-Cola. A continuing concern with these** 

### 6 **indexes that are expressed in TSL level 4, the** 

### 7 **MDEC threshold for maintenance temperature** 

### 8 **units, the VCT SEM is more aggressive than it** 

### 9 **is for pull-down units.** 

### 10 **So I guess what I am saying here** 

### 11 **is you would expect that a pull-down unit is** 

### 12 **going to use more energy, but the energy** 

### 13 **threshold that is expressed in TSL level 4 is** 

### 14 **such that it is backward from what it ought to** 

### 15 **be. It is counter to what technology allows** 

### 16 **you to be able to do.** 

### 17 **So I am just expressing concerns** 

### 18 **about what the proposals are because it seems** 

### 19 **as if it may have been done on a chalkboard** 

### 20 **and may have been done with a computer, but** 

### 21 **you can't really do these things, what you can**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 get either in the shelf, off the shelf, or in**  

### 2 **a laboratory.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce?** 

### 4 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce from Zero** 

### 5 **Zone. To follow up with the doors on medium** 

### 6 **temperature cases, the industry is gradually** 

### 7 **making that change to use doors in those** 

### 8 **applications, saving a lot of energy for the** 

### 9 **country.** 

### 10 **But there are a number of grocers** 

### 11 **that are still working with their** 

### 12 **merchandisers, trying to decide if a door is a** 

### 13 **barrier to a customer. So when we add more of** 

### 14 **a barrier, that will drive that decision away** 

### 15 **from doors. They will say, "Well, why should** 

### 16 **we put a door on?" Now they have to open a** 

### 17 **door, and they can't see the product as** 

### 18 **effectively as they could with an open case.** 

### 19 **The net result will be customers** 

### 20 **will stay with an open case. The U.S. as a** 

### 21 **whole will use more energy because people will** 

### 22 **not switch to a new product that doesn't have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 the utility of the existing product they have.**  

### 2 **So now it is bad timing.** 

### 3 **Freezers, the energy numbers have** 

### 4 **changed over the years. They are so huge with** 

### 5 **open cases. There are very few, maybe one or** 

### 6 **two, major customers that might be an open** 

### 7 **freezer for cakes or something, but that** 

### 8 **technology has so moved into doors you don't** 

### 9 **have that issue.** 

### 10 **Coolers are still in that, "Do we** 

### 11 **want a door? Do we want an open case?" So to** 

### 12 **make a change now and push them more into open** 

### 13 **cases would be counterproductive.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Jason Sands** 

### 15 **has a comment online. Jason, unmute your** 

### 16 **phone. We ought to be able to hear you.** 

### 17 **Speak clearly. We just started to hear you.** 

### 18 **Speak up. Oh, a comment, then. I apologize.** 

### 19 **I misunderstood. A comment, then. We can't** 

### 20 **hear you. Maybe you can send it to our** 

### 21 **webmaster, and we'll read it into the record** 

### 22 **here.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 Jeff?**  

### 2 **MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman.** 

### 3 **I guess another question, too -- I don't know** 

### 4 **how far off target we're here as far as the** 

### 5 **discussions, but if we're talking about some** 

### 6 **specific features with end user consideration,** 

### 7 **I think in a lot of the products, DOE has** 

### 8 **proposed a half-inch increase in insulation of** 

### 9 **walls and have done analysis on potential** 

### 10 **impact for foaming fixtures and such for** 

### 11 **manufacturers.** 

### 12 **Was it considered what that impact** 

### 13 **has again on end users, where an inch larger** 

### 14 **cabinet or an inch less space inside and** 

### 15 **smaller shelves may not seem on a piece of** 

### 16 **equipment to be significant but I would be** 

### 17 **interested whether end users were contacted** 

### 18 **for input on that. And I know when we develop** 

### 19 **products to fit into footprints, an inch is a** 

### 20 **very big deal in a kitchen layout,** 

### 21 **particularly when there's multiple pieces of** 

### 22 **equipment involved.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 MR. WEBER: So the DOE as part of**  

### 2 **its process does not usually reach out** 

### 3 **explicitly to end users, although everyone is** 

### 4 **invited to these public forums.** 

### 5 **If there are industry standards or** 

### 6 **specific hard constraints that are common or** 

### 7 **prevalent within the end user community, those** 

### 8 **quantitative inputs would be useful to the** 

### 9 **Department.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: You're next.** 

### 11 **MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with** 

### 12 **EarthJustice. I had a question for the** 

### 13 **manufacturers. If the standard moves in the** 

### 14 **direction of being modeled on a low-e coating** 

### 15 **door, would you respond to that by increasing** 

### 16 **the amount of lighting inside the case to** 

### 17 **counteract the tinting? I don't know how the** 

### 18 **trade-off works there for energy consumption,** 

### 19 **but --** 

### 20 **MR. T. ANDERSON: I would respond** 

### 21 **to that by saying that the proposed standard** 

### 22 **level is so low, that is not an option. There**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 isn't any energy there to add to lighting.**  

### 2 **If there were no energy standard** 

### 3 **and there was a prescriptive law that said you** 

### 4 **have to use low-e doors, then yes, we might** 

### 5 **look at adding extra lighting to try to get** 

### 6 **enough luminance off the product.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Tim.** 

### 8 **Bruce?** 

### 9 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce Hierlmeier.** 

### 10 **I had a question. When you talk about half** 

### 11 **inch insulation, in 2009, that was part of the** 

### 12 **analysis but ultimately got rejected or pushed** 

### 13 **out because of these dimensional issues, the** 

### 14 **low value of savings for the cost to** 

### 15 **manufacturers. How has it changed? DOE** 

### 16 **didn't seem to have that point of reference** 

### 17 **now where it did, you know, four years ago. I** 

### 18 **personally don't see much has changed about** 

### 19 **that yet other than we have a new opinion.** 

### 20 **MR. WEBER: Well, it wasn't a** 

### 21 **matter of opinion. It was a matter of** 

### 22 **analysis. So we put specific inputs into the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 analysis with respect to our value of heat**  

### 2 **transfer issues within the case, cost of** 

### 3 **foaming fixtures, engineering design costs,** 

### 4 **and then the actual foam costs and that sort** 

### 5 **of thing.** 

### 6 **And, just like all the other** 

### 7 **design options, the Department ran the numbers** 

### 8 **and then did the downstream economics. And** 

### 9 **things ended up where they may.** 

### 10 **So I would say the way to broach** 

### 11 **that is if you feel that there is something** 

### 12 **specifically inaccurate about the performance** 

### 13 **levels or the costs attributed to foaming,** 

### 14 **that that would be the place to approach that** 

### 15 **because this analysis wasn't, simply an** 

### 16 **extension of the previous analysis in terms of** 

### 17 **what has changed. It was conducted in** 

### 18 **isolation on its own merits.** 

### 19 **MR. HIERLMEIER: I mean, my** 

### 20 **approach would be going back and looking at** 

### 21 **2009 to see whether anything has changed that** 

### 22 **makes sense. It is sort of like a double**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 check on the values you have developed or if,**  

### 2 **all of a sudden, you say, "Gee, this case is** 

### 3 **now going to be 64 percent more efficient than** 

### 4 **it was in 2009," do I actually have any inputs** 

### 5 **or design changes that can back it up? If you** 

### 6 **don't, then it's time to go back and evaluate** 

### 7 **the formulas and the suppositions that were** 

### 8 **made because you have a new reference point.** 

### 9 **You compare those, make sure they're** 

### 10 **consistent. It's just good engineering** 

### 11 **practice to do that.** 

### 12 **MR. WEBER: And what the** 

### 13 **Department is asking is we are laying out all** 

### 14 **of those inputs for you.** 

### 15 **I do think it would be helpful to** 

### 16 **get to the model so we can discuss those** 

### 17 **inputs.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 19 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Before we go** 

### 20 **there, can we put slide 11 back on, please?** 

### 21 **Charlie went through this pretty quick, and I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 think we have been asked the same question in**  

### 2 **I think eight different ways now.** 

### 3 **So EPCA factor number 4, "Impact** 

### 4 **on utility or performance." So this is where** 

### 5 **we are asking for comment. If what you see in** 

### 6 **our analysis you think has impact on utility** 

### 7 **or performance, which is what Jeff has been** 

### 8 **mentioning and I think what you have been** 

### 9 **mentioning about the triple glazed doors, this** 

### 10 **is where you add your comment and say, "This** 

### 11 **design option will have negative impact on** 

### 12 **customer utility because of" blah blah blah** 

### 13 **blah blah.** 

### 14 **And so it is a factor that is laid** 

### 15 **out in the statute that we must consider when** 

### 16 **we set these amended standards.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 18 **Let's do proceed. How many of you** 

### 19 **need a break at this point? Are we good for** 

### 20 **another ten minutes? Let's go ten more** 

### 21 **minutes. Go ahead.** 

### 22 **MR. WEBER: All right. Thanks,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 Doug.**  

### 2 **So, finishing up design options,** 

### 3 **next we would like to move into a discussion** 

### 4 **of the performance modeling, which I think** 

### 5 **will give a structure and guidance to some of** 

### 6 **these areas for discussion that we want to** 

### 7 **dive into.** 

### 8 **So the representative unit data** 

### 9 **and design option data, as previously** 

### 10 **discussed, were then fed as major inputs into** 

### 11 **DOE's performance model. Performance model is** 

### 12 **an Excel-based simulator, calculates equipment** 

### 13 **performance under the DOE test procedure,** 

### 14 **kilowatt hours per day under fixed conditions** 

### 15 **for baseline and improved equipment** 

### 16 **configurations. We'll get into further detail** 

### 17 **in just a minute.** 

### 18 **Each primary class is modeled at** 

### 19 **the baseline as well as increasingly high** 

### 20 **levels of equipment performance corresponding** 

### 21 **to implementation of each applicable design** 

### 22 **option.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 The output is then a set of**  

### 2 **performance results consisting of modeled** 

### 3 **energy consumption under DOE test procedure** 

### 4 **conditions at each efficiency level up to the** 

### 5 **max-tech level. Details of performance** 

### 6 **analysis are included on the next slides.** 

### 7 **So here we have an overview of the** 

### 8 **performance model. The model itself was** 

### 9 **developed for the 2009 rulemaking, and it was** 

### 10 **updated for this rulemaking, expanded to cover** 

### 11 **the new equipment classes looked at this time** 

### 12 **around, expanded to have the inputs,** 

### 13 **assumptions, and other factors updated.** 

### 14 **So the model is really broken into** 

### 15 **two pieces. There is the case heat load** 

### 16 **model, which looks at heat load under DOE test** 

### 17 **procedure conditions. It accounts for the** 

### 18 **thermal loads incident upon the case,** 

### 19 **conduction through doors and walls, radiation** 

### 20 **through openings, heat and moisture addition** 

### 21 **due to warm air infiltration. And then it** 

### 22 **calculates heat introduced into the case by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 the electrical operation of internal**  

### 2 **components inside the refrigerator volume,** 

### 3 **including fans, lighting, defrost, and anti** 

### 4 **sweat.** 

### 5 **The second part of the performance** 

### 6 **model is the refrigeration system model.** 

### 7 **Compressor power input, obviously the biggest** 

### 8 **energy user in this type of equipment, for** 

### 9 **self-contained at least, is calculated using** 

### 10 **compressor performance data. Modeling of heat** 

### 11 **exchanger effectiveness is used to estimate** 

### 12 **the compressor operating conditions here,** 

### 13 **evaporating/condensing conditions.** 

### 14 **Energy use of auxiliary** 

### 15 **components, such as the lighting, fans, and** 

### 16 **anti-sweat heaters, are based on component** 

### 17 **power input and run time. System energy** 

### 18 **consumption is calculated as the sum of the** 

### 19 **refrigeration system, compressor and fans, and** 

### 20 **auxiliary component energy consumption, anti** 

### 21 **sweat, defrost, lighting, et cetera.** 

### 22 **So, to go into more detail, the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 heat load calculations are based on the**  

### 2 **geometry and the design parameters of the unit** 

### 3 **that is being modeled as well as the** 

### 4 **conditions of the DOE test procedure. So here** 

### 5 **on the slide, you see the modeling is being** 

### 6 **done inside this control volume context** 

### 7 **outlined in blue of the DOE test procedure** 

### 8 **conditions, ASHRAE conditions, 75 Fahrenheit,** 

### 9 **55 percent relative humidity, in an 8-hour** 

### 10 **door-opening period.** 

### 11 **So here we see the various heat** 

### 12 **load components. We see, for example, the** 

### 13 **light bulb-emitting tower into the case as key** 

### 14 **parameters that go into that at a lighting** 

### 15 **wattage per fixture, the number of fixtures** 

### 16 **and the run time; anti-sweat: heat emitted** 

### 17 **into the case. It was assumed for DOE's** 

### 18 **calculations that 70 percent of the anti-sweat** 

### 19 **power would end up back inside the case, the** 

### 20 **other 30 would go the other direction, into** 

### 21 **the ambient environment.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 Radiation through glass. Key**  

### 2 **parameters driving this include the case** 

### 3 **temperature and the ambient temperatures, the** 

### 4 **door U-factor, the glass U-factor, and then** 

### 5 **the area of the glass door. Fan power being** 

### 6 **rejected into the cases heat, it is assumed,** 

### 7 **obviously, that all your fan power would be** 

### 8 **either as friction due to operation of the** 

### 9 **motor or the kinetic energy of the fan blade** 

### 10 **spinning would end up as heat eventually. Key** 

### 11 **parameters: fan input power, input power,** 

### 12 **number of fans, and then run time.** 

### 13 **Conduction through the walls and** 

### 14 **the glass, obviously self-explanatory, key** 

### 15 **parameters including the insulation R-value,** 

### 16 **the wall area, insulation thickness, the glass** 

### 17 **area and U-factor of any glass doors or other** 

### 18 **pieces of glass, and the temperature** 

### 19 **differential between the DOE test procedure** 

### 20 **condition, 75 Fahrenheit, and the operating** 

### 21 **condition, rating condition.** 

### 22 **And then, finally, warm air**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 infiltration for door openings, key parameters**  

### 2 **being the temperature differential between the** 

### 3 **inside of the case and the infiltrated air** 

### 4 **mass.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: We have a question** 

### 6 **here.** 

### 7 **MR. MAU: Mike Mau, Royal Vendors.** 

### 8 **This heat load model, have you done modeling** 

### 9 **and then verified it through tests?** 

### 10 **MR. WEBER: So we haven't isolated** 

### 11 **and verified specific elements in terms of,** 

### 12 **you know, let's isolate just the case** 

### 13 **conduction load through walls or that sort of** 

### 14 **thing. So the heat load model is just half of** 

### 15 **the engineering simulation. And, as we** 

### 16 **previously mentioned, we have validated** 

### 17 **results of the whole simulation model with** 

### 18 **testing.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: I would like to** 

### 20 **have him -- how many more slides do you have?** 

### 21 **Two?** 

### 22 **MR. WEBER: Just a couple, yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let him**  

### 2 **finish because I would like to get the whole** 

### 3 **ensemble here.** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: Okay. So case** 

### 5 **geometries, wall area, insulation thickness,** 

### 6 **that sort of thing, and design parameters,** 

### 7 **number of fans, fan shaft work, 6-watt, 9-** 

### 8 **watt, 12-watt, were based on manufacturer** 

### 9 **literature and verified at interviews, as were** 

### 10 **the thermal performance of the case and the** 

### 11 **component.** 

### 12 **So the second half of the** 

### 13 **performance model is modeling the** 

### 14 **refrigeration system and other electrical** 

### 15 **components.** 

### 16 **Compressor energy consumption for** 

### 17 **self-contained units is based on performance** 

### 18 **maps obtained from compressor suppliers, which** 

### 19 **they, in turn, base on testing.** 

### 20 **Compressor maps provide the** 

### 21 **compressor performance, capacity and power** 

### 22 **input, based on specific operating conditions,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 the suction and discharge conditions.**  

### 2 **Within the engineering model,** 

### 3 **these conditions, suction and discharge,** 

### 4 **evaporating and condensing conditions, are** 

### 5 **calculated as a function of the design air** 

### 6 **temperatures and also as the design of the** 

### 7 **heat exchangers. So the heat exchanger design** 

### 8 **when it's improved serves to lower the** 

### 9 **condensing temperature or raise the** 

### 10 **evaporating temperature. And that is how the** 

### 11 **model, which then feeds back into the** 

### 12 **compressor map accounts for that.** 

### 13 **Heat exchanger design parameters** 

### 14 **were developed through first-principles** 

### 15 **modeling of coils by an outside subject matter** 

### 16 **expert.** 

### 17 **One thing that is not directly on** 

### 18 **here is for remote condensing cases, the heat** 

### 19 **load is translated into a compressor energy** 

### 20 **consumption using the standard table of** 

### 21 **mapping that is included in AHRI 1200. So** 

### 22 **those standard for all remote cases. And that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 is also the mapping that is used when one**  

### 2 **conducts a test for those cases.** 

### 3 **The fan and auxiliary component** 

### 4 **energy consumption are then calculated and** 

### 5 **added to the compressor electricity** 

### 6 **consumption.** 

### 7 **Evaporator fans are always assumed** 

### 8 **to be on. Condenser fans are assumed to cycle** 

### 9 **with the compressor. Fan power estimates come** 

### 10 **from fan motor manufacturer literature and** 

### 11 **some interviews.** 

### 12 **Lighting is modeled with the run** 

### 13 **time specified in the DOE test procedure. So** 

### 14 **without control, the lighting is always on.** 

### 15 **Occupancy sensors give a 2.8-hour credit for** 

### 16 **the DOE test procedure. Scheduled controls** 

### 17 **give an additional eight-hour credit for the** 

### 18 **DOE test procedure. And lighting power** 

### 19 **consumption is based on product literature and** 

### 20 **validated against manufacturer interviews.** 

### 21 **Anti-sweat heater power was** 

### 22 **estimated from literature and interviews with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 CRE manufacturers and glass door**  

### 2 **manufacturers. The run time is assumed to be** 

### 3 **100 percent, per manufacturer interviews.** 

### 4 **And so I think this would be a** 

### 5 **good time to take comment on this.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. I** 

### 7 **saw Steve first.** 

### 8 **MR. COUSINS: Yes. Steve Cousins.** 

### 9 **–In responding to Mike's question, you said** 

### 10 **you validated the entire simulation. And I** 

### 11 **didn't quite understand what that meant. Are** 

### 12 **you saying that you verified these theoretical** 

### 13 **results with physical testing of an actual** 

### 14 **unit?** 

### 15 **MR. WEBER: Not for theoretical** 

### 16 **things that haven't been constructed yet, but** 

### 17 **we have tested units that are on the market** 

### 18 **and compared them to the results that the** 

### 19 **model produces for similarly configured** 

### 20 **simulations.** 

### 21 **MR. COUSINS: So you're saying you** 

### 22 **tested models that are on the market and you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 actually achieved the results that are being**  

### 2 **proposed?** 

### 3 **MR. WEBER: No. We tested units** 

### 4 **that are on the market. And our simulation** 

### 5 **produced similar results to those models when** 

### 6 **you tweaked the simulation to simulate those** 

### 7 **models. So say you pulled something off the** 

### 8 **shelf, it's got ECMs on the evaporator side** 

### 9 **but you're still shaded on the condenser side,** 

### 10 **your compressor EER is this or that, and your** 

### 11 **insulation thickness is an inch and a half.** 

### 12 **Test it, for example. And then we look at the** 

### 13 **point in this model for a unit that has all of** 

### 14 **those same features. We have done some** 

### 15 **comparisons like that and shown that they** 

### 16 **roughly line up.** 

### 17 **MR. CYMBALSKY: To put this a** 

### 18 **different way, --** 

### 19 **MR. WEBER: Spot check.** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: -- we built a** 

### 21 **computer simulation model that can predict the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 results of a test. And we validated it,**  

### 2 **validated the model, based on testing.** 

### 3 **So if you're asking a different** 

### 4 **question; that is, did we build a model that** 

### 5 **meets the standard and test it with this** 

### 6 **simulation, the answer is no.** 

### 7 **MR. COUSINS: And was there any** 

### 8 **compressor modeling done for R744 with gas** 

### 9 **cooler design as well?** 

### 10 **MR. WEBER: DOE did not explicitly** 

### 11 **look at CO2 in this analysis.** 

### 12 **MR. COUSINS: Why not?** 

### 13 **MR. WEBER: Well, if you want to** 

### 14 **get into the next slide, DOE just modeled** 

### 15 **equipment using R404 and R134a because it was** 

### 16 **the most common at the time. DOE performed** 

### 17 **the analysis based on a policy of remaining** 

### 18 **refrigerant-neutral and focusing on the** 

### 19 **currently available technologies, which I** 

### 20 **realize CO2 --** 

### 21 **MR. COUSINS: You weren't** 

### 22 **refrigerant-neutral if you didn't consider**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 hydrocarbons or CO2. You are showing a bias**  

### 2 **towards HFCs.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: Thank you, Mr.** 

### 4 **Cousins. This is Harvey.** 

### 5 **MR. WEBER: Well, I can let DOE** 

### 6 **speak to that.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Finish this slide.** 

### 8 **Then we'll take some additional comments.** 

### 9 **MR. WEBER: Non-HFC units are** 

### 10 **currently very small. DOE realized they were** 

### 11 **a growing aspect of the market. We welcome** 

### 12 **comments.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: I saw Jeff first** 

### 14 **and then Charlie.** 

### 15 **MR. BAUMAN: Two comments/** 

### 16 **questions, I guess. One is, can DOE make** 

### 17 **their model available to manufacturers that we** 

### 18 **could actually use it to model a piece of** 

### 19 **equipment and see whether we're getting** 

### 20 **similar results that you're getting? I think** 

### 21 **that would overall potentially make us all** 

### 22 **feel a lot better than the model is valid.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 One of the areas that I have**  

### 2 **particular concern about is the infiltration** 

### 3 **load model, particularly in closed-door units.** 

### 4 **Door openings can affect, and the air** 

### 5 **exchange during a door opening affects the** 

### 6 **system significantly as far as energy** 

### 7 **consumption and run times. And we validated** 

### 8 **that in our testing modeling.** 

### 9 **From the information in the TSD,** 

### 10 **I'll say it appears that that was not, I'll** 

### 11 **say, looked at very much in depth, probably** 

### 12 **because there is not a lot of information I** 

### 13 **think available on that, at least as far as we** 

### 14 **found. And the TSD again seems to correlate** 

### 15 **that, but it was kind of an area that was, I** 

### 16 **won't say brushed over, but it wasn't a lot of** 

### 17 **ability there to do in-depth analysis on it.** 

### 18 **MR. WEBER: So the way that the** 

### 19 **model accounts for infiltration is it looks at** 

### 20 **an infiltrated air mass rate at a pounds-per** 

### 21 **hour basis. So this is pounds per hour of** 

### 22 **75/55 ambient air that is infiltrated in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 case on an average basis normalized over the**  

### 2 **24-hour period.** 

### 3 **MR. BAUMAN: Understood and agree.** 

### 4 **And I appreciate that clarification, Collin.** 

### 5 **The area that I'm not sure that DOE or how** 

### 6 **well your ability is to model is when you open** 

### 7 **a door for six seconds or whatever the time** 

### 8 **is, how much air exchange. Is it half the air** 

### 9 **that was in the cabinet? Is it all the air?** 

### 10 **Is it 100 percent?** 

### 11 **Obviously there are models and the** 

### 12 **numbers when you committed in your air** 

### 13 **differences that that is going to put on the** 

### 14 **load, but the more significant is how do you** 

### 15 **model. Depending on where the fans are** 

### 16 **depending on the air flow in that particular** 

### 17 **configuration, the cabinet, the amount of air** 

### 18 **that is exchanged during a door opening can** 

### 19 **vary significantly. And that has a definite** 

### 20 **impact on the performance.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?** 

### 22 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon. You are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 analyzing with R404 and R134a. Both of those**  

### 2 **are being reviewed at this time by the SNAP** 

### 3 **groups for possible removal from commercial** 

### 4 **refrigeration.** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So can you guys** 

### 6 **provide your test data that you have on the** 

### 7 **alternate refrigerants to the Department?** 

### 8 **MR. COUSINS: I would be glad to** 

### 9 **do that.** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Steve.** 

### 12 **Harvey Sachs?** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: A couple of notes.** 

### 14 **One of them, I think that Jeff Bauman has --** 

### 15 **this is Harvey Sachs -- slid close to another** 

### 16 **reason for releasing the model. That is, some** 

### 17 **manufacturers may find parts of it of interest** 

### 18 **for their own AEDM work, which we spent the** 

### 19 **summer on.** 

### 20 **And I am generally in favor of** 

### 21 **having open source models that people can use** 

### 22 **for verification and for all sorts of other**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 things. And I would encourage the Department**  

### 2 **to think that way.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, a follow** 

### 4 **on?** 

### 5 **MR. HON: I think several people** 

### 6 **in this room may need to know what an AEDM is** 

### 7 **if Harvey would explain it.** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: Thank you.** 

### 9 **An alternative energy** 

### 10 **determination model, which was the subject of** 

### 11 **the so-called ASRAC working group's efforts** 

### 12 **this summer to move towards certification and** 

### 13 **verification and to advance the potential use** 

### 14 **of simulations.** 

### 15 **I have another comment, but I** 

### 16 **certainly ought to let Mr. Cymbalsky respond.** 

### 17 **MR. CYMBALSKY: No. I thought my** 

### 18 **recollection was the Department wasn't going** 

### 19 **to be in the business of building the AEDMs,** 

### 20 **but it's a different issue than letting the** 

### 21 **software go, right? We don't want to turn** 

### 22 **this into, "Oh, DOE built all the AEDMs**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 first." We went through that conversation in**  

### 2 **the negotiations. I am not sure that is what** 

### 3 **you were getting at.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's close out** 

### 5 **this segment. I'll return to you in just a** 

### 6 **second, Harvey. Charles? Robert?** 

### 7 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,** 

### 8 **Danfoss. Just to add a little emphasis on** 

### 9 **this refrigerant, I think this is really a** 

### 10 **critical issue. These technologies are here** 

### 11 **and available today. It's not like the** 

### 12 **compressor issue, where you are kind of** 

### 13 **playing on the calm of what might be possible** 

### 14 **to achieve. They're approved by EPA. And** 

### 15 **they are widely available around the world.** 

### 16 **So I would urge you to seriously** 

### 17 **consider propane, isobutene and carbon dioxide** 

### 18 **as commercially viable refrigerants. And** 

### 19 **manufacturers that are in this room are** 

### 20 **beginning to utilize them today.** 

### 21 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Are all those** 

### 22 **certified by, say, UL or whatever the safety**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 -- I'm just asking a question. I don't**  

### 2 **actually know.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Victor, can you** 

### 4 **comment? Steve?** 

### 5 **MR. V. ANDERSON: Yes. We can** 

### 6 **definitely look at propane for some of our** 

### 7 **product but not all of our product. The 150-** 

### 8 **gram limit really restricts when you get into** 

### 9 **the higher Btu loads of a unit.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And** 

### 11 **this was precisely my point, that by screening** 

### 12 **out the alternative refrigerants, which are** 

### 13 **already being used elsewhere, we have** 

### 14 **seriously impacted all of the downstream** 

### 15 **analysis of efficiency potential.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 17 **Charlie?** 

### 18 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. As** 

### 19 **chairman of the working group for UL, yes, we** 

### 20 **do have it available in certain categories.** 

### 21 **We do not have crossover approvals.** 

### 22 **Commercial refrigeration is allowing 150 grams**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 of propane or unlimited amounts of CO2 as an**  

### 2 **alternate refrigerant. They do not at this** 

### 3 **time allow isobutene or any other possibles.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, please?** 

### 5 **MR. COUSINS: Okay. These** 

### 6 **technologies, as you say, aren't really** 

### 7 **available. We have over a million cabinets** 

### 8 **out there that are not HFCs, that are either** 

### 9 **hydrocarbon or are 744.** 

### 10 **Currently about 28 percent of the** 

### 11 **cabinets we purchase, not just globally but in** 

### 12 **the United States as well, are 744. Our goal** 

### 13 **is to be at 100 percent within 3 years. If it** 

### 14 **wasn't available, then we wouldn't be able to** 

### 15 **do it. It is available, and we're doing it.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 17 **Yes, Bruce?** 

### 18 **MR. HIERLMEIER: I had a different** 

### 19 **question. It's not tied into the stream. It** 

### 20 **actually gets back to the analysis and perhaps** 

### 21 **another reason we need to see the model. For** 

### 22 **the medium-temperature door cases, you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 indicate your test standards are going to**  

### 2 **remove the energy from the doors. They'll go** 

### 3 **to zero energy door. You don't address what** 

### 4 **about the frames or in the freezer, we have** 

### 5 **door heat and we have frame heat.** 

### 6 **And we go in and look at table** 

### 7 **5A.2.2. You show zero anti-sweat energy for** 

### 8 **the rest of the case. So we can't do any** 

### 9 **analysis. We can't comment on it because it** 

### 10 **seems to be, okay. You said the case is not** 

### 11 **going to have any anti-sweat heat on the** 

### 12 **opening.** 

### 13 **We don't know of a freezer that** 

### 14 **has that capability in the marketplace. So we** 

### 15 **don't know if that's an error that you forgot** 

### 16 **about that amount of heat. You didn't put it** 

### 17 **in. It's technology we're supposed to be able** 

### 18 **to do and we don't know about it. We're not** 

### 19 **on top of it as a company.** 

### 20 **But there are assumptions we're** 

### 21 **just not going to be able to sort out here.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry. I'm going**  

### 2 **to want to look at that table. I understand** 

### 3 **with freezers, we still had 80 watts per door.** 

### 4 **I don't want to hold us up, though, but that** 

### 5 **is my understanding.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let me take a poll.** 

### 7 **Do you all want to take a break or do you** 

### 8 **just want to press on until lunch at noon?** 

### 9 **Early lunch? Okay. Let's just keep going for** 

### 10 **another little bit here.** 

### 11 **MR. WEBER: So here in table** 

### 12 **5.6.10, we're looking at vertical closed** 

### 13 **transparent equipment at low temperatures,** 

### 14 **which is what I would call freezer. And even** 

### 15 **the high-performance option, we're seeing 80** 

### 16 **watts per door. So I am not sure what you are** 

### 17 **alluding to.** 

### 18 **MR. HIERLMEIER: I was looking at** 

### 19 **table 5A.2.2.** 

### 20 **MR. WEBER: 5A.2.2 for which** 

### 21 **equipment class?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 MR. HIERLMEIER: VCT RCL. I don't**  

### 2 **see any anti-sweat heat for the doors or** 

### 3 **frames.** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: I see. So when we say** 

### 5 **"non-door anti-sweat power, we're referring to** 

### 6 **completely off the door and the frame." The** 

### 7 **numbers that we have for doors include the** 

### 8 **frame as well.** 

### 9 **MR. HIERLMEIER: And that's** 

### 10 **carried in a different table, then.** 

### 11 **MR. WEBER: That's in the design** 

### 12 **option for doors. Yes. So the 80 watts on** 

### 13 **the door includes anything on the glass and** 

### 14 **the frame.** 

### 15 **A non-door anti-sweat would be on,** 

### 16 **for example, like a service case or something** 

### 17 **like that, where you have other areas that** 

### 18 **might need anti-condensate.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Victor, additional** 

### 20 **comment here? No? Additional comments? I** 

### 21 **think this last series of comments has been** 

### 22 **very helpful and all of this will be put in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 great detail in writing, of course. Right?**  

### 2 **So thanks for those. Before we move on,** 

### 3 **anything else to be said in this segment?** 

### 4 **Victor, get the microphone. Thank you.** 

### 5 **MR. V. ANDERSON: Victor Anderson.** 

### 6 **We build a lot of our own condensing units.** 

### 7 **So I'm speaking to the increased efficiency of** 

### 8 **a condenser coil for self-contained units. A** 

### 9 **lot, not all, but a lot of our competition** 

### 10 **buys off-the-shelf condensing units.** 

### 11 **When I look at what we have done** 

### 12 **with our product -- and now I am going to** 

### 13 **refer to the SOC, self-contained medium-temp** 

### 14 **class -- we think we've got the most efficient** 

### 15 **compressors. We've got the most efficient** 

### 16 **evaporators and condenser coils and LED** 

### 17 **lighting, ECM fan motors, even removed the** 

### 18 **front fan energy. I don't know if that was** 

### 19 **taken into consideration and looked at** 

### 20 **insulated glass, didn't look at the vacuum** 

### 21 **formed insulated panels. That didn't seem to** 

### 22 **be very cost-effective.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 With all of that, we were still 30**  

### 2 **to 40 percent above the levels that were set** 

### 3 **for 2017. So my concern is not for us but for** 

### 4 **the industry as a whole. If they're not** 

### 5 **designing their own condensing units -- again,** 

### 6 **it's related to the column of the** 

### 7 **manufacturers that do. Are they going to put** 

### 8 **in energy-efficient fan motors and bigger** 

### 9 **coils? It's going to be an engineering feat** 

### 10 **and a major hurdle for all of us to get to** 

### 11 **those levels.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 13 **Steve?** 

### 14 **MR. COUSINS: No. I am just** 

### 15 **agreeing with what has been said. I agree** 

### 16 **wholeheartedly. We're looking at once again** 

### 17 **TSL level 4's, a reduction of about 62 percent** 

### 18 **in these proposals from ENERGY STAR today. So** 

### 19 **if we could have achieved this with what is** 

### 20 **available commercially, then the Coca-Cola** 

### 21 **Company would already be putting these units** 

### 22 **out there.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.**  

### 2 **Okay. We're going to move on,** 

### 3 **then.** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: I think we already** 

### 5 **covered positions in the audience on** 

### 6 **refrigerants.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. WEBER: If there is any** 

### 9 **additional comment?** 

### 10 **(No response.)** 

### 11 **MR. WEBER: All right. So the** 

### 12 **last step of the engineering analysis was cost** 

### 13 **modeling, creating costs to approximate cost** 

### 14 **of manufacture, first step down the** 

### 15 **distribution chain for the equipment at each** 

### 16 **efficiency level modeled.** 

### 17 **DOE developed costs for the model** 

### 18 **equipment in several phases. The first was** 

### 19 **developing costs of the core case, which is** 

### 20 **just the refrigerated cabinet itself: the** 

### 21 **sheet metal, the base insulation, wiring, that** 

### 22 **sort of thing, non-energy-consuming**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 components, which are just structural and**  

### 2 **don't really vary a lot with energy efficiency** 

### 3 **level. These were developed based on tear** 

### 4 **downs of units currently on the market.** 

### 5 **Costs for the energy-consuming** 

### 6 **components and the design options were then** 

### 7 **developed through research of industry** 

### 8 **literature, supplier price quotes, and** 

### 9 **manufacturer interviews, as well as a little** 

### 10 **bit of tear-down analysis.** 

### 11 **Estimates of manufacturer markup,** 

### 12 **which is to get from Manufacturer Production** 

### 13 **Costs to Manufacturer Selling Price, were** 

### 14 **developed with data from the manufacturer** 

### 15 **interview process and manufacturer financial** 

### 16 **documents.** 

### 17 **Design option costs were applied** 

### 18 **to the core case costs at each modeled** 

### 19 **efficiency level to yield Manufacturer** 

### 20 **Production Cost for each efficiency level.** 

### 21 **Markups and outbound freight were then added** 

### 22 **to yield the Manufacturer Selling Prices.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 And the final output when you**  

### 2 **reconcile the performance -- yes, sir?** 

### 3 **MR. THOMPSON: This is Chris** 

### 4 **Thompson. Just to maybe kind of get a comment** 

### 5 **out as you walk through this portion, if you** 

### 6 **go through -- I don't know if you are planning** 

### 7 **to speak to it or not, but if you could touch** 

### 8 **on the area where you talked about there are** 

### 9 **structural components and then there is energy** 

### 10 **issue components. I mean, there is a wall** 

### 11 **between there.** 

### 12 **Speak to insulation and when you** 

### 13 **considered insulation. Did you consider any** 

### 14 **of the structural impact of insulation versus** 

### 15 **just the thermal impact of insulation to the** 

### 16 **whole product?** 

### 17 **MR. WEBER: You are referring to** 

### 18 **the structural integrity or the costs involved** 

### 19 **in --** 

### 20 **MR. THOMPSON: I am talking about** 

### 21 **the per-product cost --** 

### 22 **MR. WEBER: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 MR. THOMPSON: -- of the**  

### 2 **functionality that insulation serving dual** 

### 3 **purpose, both thermal and structural, rather** 

### 4 **than just looking at it as a thermal component** 

### 5 **versus completely independent of a structural** 

### 6 **component.** 

### 7 **MR. WEBER: Well, so we only** 

### 8 **looked at insulation increases, which just --** 

### 9 **MR. THOMPSON: When you looked at** 

### 10 **insulation increases, one of the things was** 

### 11 **vacuum insulation panels.** 

### 12 **MR. WEBER: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. THOMPSON: And yes, it may** 

### 14 **increase thermal --** 

### 15 **MR. WEBER: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. THOMPSON: -- capability --** 

### 17 **MR. WEBER: Absolutely.** 

### 18 **MR. THOMPSON: -- and be good for** 

### 19 **thermal, but it doesn't necessarily translate** 

### 20 **to a good and structural -- and that's an** 

### 21 **aspect that has to be looked at when --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 MR. WEBER: No. Absolutely. I**  

### 2 **thought you were talking about just the** 

### 3 **traditional foam-in-place. If you're talking** 

### 4 **about VIPs, comments would definitely be** 

### 5 **welcome on their feasibility and their** 

### 6 **impacts. And that would include cost impacts** 

### 7 **of redesign to accommodate them from a** 

### 8 **structural perspective, that sort of thing.** 

### 9 **MR. THOMPSON: All right.** 

### 10 **MR. WEBER: We rolled that in with** 

### 11 **the best available data, but we would always** 

### 12 **welcome more data.** 

### 13 **MR. THOMPSON: And the best** 

### 14 **available data you used was thermal data or --** 

### 15 **MR. WEBER: The best available** 

### 16 **data was confidential manufacturer interview** 

### 17 **data, discussing with manufacturers their** 

### 18 **costs to implement these new design options in** 

### 19 **terms of both the manufacturing, the material** 

### 20 **costs and also design costs and capital** 

### 21 **expenditures.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 MR. THOMPSON: And I understand**  

### 2 **that the manufacturing and the issues related** 

### 3 **to the manufacturer are confidential, but can** 

### 4 **you comment on the class of equipment that** 

### 5 **that was discussed around?** 

### 6 **MR. WEBER: All of them. All of** 

### 7 **this was open for comment at both previous** 

### 8 **states of the rulemaking, where we conducted** 

### 9 **confidential interviews.** 

### 10 **MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: John?** 

### 12 **MR. McHUGH: Yes. It's not really** 

### 13 **related to cost, but just over this last** 

### 14 **series of comments, we heard a number of** 

### 15 **comments from different manufacturers saying** 

### 16 **that they have assembled what they consider to** 

### 17 **be best in class products. And so it sounds** 

### 18 **to me that there may be some additional data** 

### 19 **points, you know.** 

### 20 **So right now, you know, when you** 

### 21 **have a model, you know, when you extrapolate,** 

### 22 **it's always more difficult to make sure that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 you're hitting your target. And so I don't**  

### 2 **know if there's -- I would like to ask the** 

### 3 **question, is there anything that prevents this** 

### 4 **model being exercised with those best-in-class** 

### 5 **products from the various manufacturers that** 

### 6 **have described that, hey, yeah, we've been** 

### 7 **doing this stuff. We've been trying to hit** 

### 8 **these targets. And it sounds like that these** 

### 9 **particular products are well beyond sort of,** 

### 10 **you know, just minimally complying with the** 

### 11 **preexisting standards.** 

### 12 **And potentially that's -- there is** 

### 13 **an opportunity to make use of their test** 

### 14 **experience in your model to actually validate** 

### 15 **if the model is applicable as we go further** 

### 16 **out in terms of adding all of the efficiency** 

### 17 **options together.** 

### 18 **MR. WEBER: DOE has never declined** 

### 19 **additional data.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's keep** 

### 21 **--** 

### 22 **MR. WEBER: Sure. So the output**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 in the engineering analysis, basically the**  

### 2 **last half of chapter 5, is the cost-efficiency** 

### 3 **curve. This is the point where for each** 

### 4 **equipment class studied at each design option** 

### 5 **level or efficiency level studied, DOE** 

### 6 **reconciles the performance level coming out of** 

### 7 **the model with the cost level that was** 

### 8 **determined. The design options are ordered** 

### 9 **and implemented in terms of decreasing** 

### 10 **payback, increasing payback period.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Victor?** 

### 12 **MR. V. ANDERSON: The efficiency** 

### 13 **gains that you got out of this model, were** 

### 14 **those reflected in the new standards?** 

### 15 **MR. WEBER: Excuse me?** 

### 16 **MR. V. ANDERSON: The efficiency** 

### 17 **gains. So from the very first time, very** 

### 18 **first option you added to the last on the SOC** 

### 19 **class was that whole range was a 40 percent** 

### 20 **reduction in energy. Is that what was** 

### 21 **reflected in the standard --** 

### 22 **MR. WEBER: So the engineering**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 analysis produces these cost-efficiency**  

### 2 **curves.** 

### 3 **MR. V. ANDERSON: Correct.** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: Those are fed into the** 

### 5 **downstream analysis and become efficiency** 

### 6 **levels. And then those correspond to trial** 

### 7 **standard levels, one of which was proposed.** 

### 8 **So yes, the data you see coming out of the** 

### 9 **engineering analysis, the data that is the** 

### 10 **second half of that TSC chapter 5 is the basis** 

### 11 **--** 

### 12 **MR. V. ANDERSON: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. WEBER: -- for the proposal --** 

### 14 **MR. V. ANDERSON: On the SOC --** 

### 15 **MR. WEBER: -- on all classes.** 

### 16 **MR. V. ANDERSON: On the SOC,** 

### 17 **self-contained, medium-temp, you had a** 

### 18 **standard reduction of 40 percent. Yet, the** 

### 19 **new level reflects a 47 percent reduction. So** 

### 20 **I was curious on what the reasoning was behind** 

### 21 **that and how you get that extra seven percent.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 MR. WEBER: I'm not sure. I'm not**  

### 2 **exactly clear on the terminology that you're** 

### 3 **using. Maybe we should discuss it offline.** 

### 4 **MR. V. ANDERSON: All right.** 

### 5 **MR. WEBER: It's not entirely** 

### 6 **clear to me.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs?** 

### 8 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.** 

### 9 **And slide 41's graph certainly caught my** 

### 10 **attention, but I feel, Collin, that it's a** 

### 11 **little bit or a lot misleading in terms of** 

### 12 **what manufacturers can do. You have chosen** 

### 13 **the case for which the manufacturers** 

### 14 **represented here have about the least** 

### 15 **influence. It's vertical, open, and remote** 

### 16 **condensing.** 

### 17 **You can throw money at this class** 

### 18 **with the few things that these manufacturers** 

### 19 **can do, and you're still going to wind up with** 

### 20 **this cliff at the highest TSL. And although** 

### 21 **it drew my eye, I don't think this is a good** 

### 22 **example as a representative product in terms**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 of the kinds of things that people at this**  

### 2 **table can do.** 

### 3 **MR. WEBER: That's understood.** 

### 4 **That's a good point.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce?** 

### 6 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce Hierlmeier.** 

### 7 **When we did the last rulemaking, you sat at** 

### 8 **the table. You gave us information. You used** 

### 9 **information pulled off our data sheets. Later** 

### 10 **on we find out about the compliance standards.** 

### 11 **And, all of a sudden, we have uncertainty** 

### 12 **levels. So you have to knock off two or three** 

### 13 **or four percent more from our normal numbers.** 

### 14 **They also, if my understanding is** 

### 15 **correct, said the test standard had a five** 

### 16 **percent variance in it and said, "Well, that** 

### 17 **ASHRAE test standard, that five percent** 

### 18 **doesn't apply." No product you ever ship can** 

### 19 **ever exceed the standard. So it has the** 

### 20 **effect of actually moving all of our data or** 

### 21 **all of our design points down five, six, seven** 

### 22 **percent from nominal. Nominal is what we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 report.**  

### 2 **So how do you handle uncertainty** 

### 3 **in these? I don't see anything in the** 

### 4 **analysis saying, you know, "Door heat, yeah,** 

### 5 **it should be 80 watts, but, you know, those** 

### 6 **heaters aren't exact. Some days they're a** 

### 7 **little colder. Some days they're a little** 

### 8 **warmer.** 

### 9 **Customers can't have cold heaters** 

### 10 **because they have water on the floor. They** 

### 11 **won't accept it. So you have to design so** 

### 12 **your lowest heat is functional, but at the** 

### 13 **same time, you could get another set of** 

### 14 **heaters that just come out of the process at a** 

### 15 **high end.** 

### 16 **So what we saw with that is an** 

### 17 **effective shift down of all of your analysis** 

### 18 **points. So how do you now handle uncertainty?** 

### 19 **I mean, do you use just the nominal reading** 

### 20 **or do you actually say, "This is the best case** 

### 21 **that that" -- because most people publish sort** 

### 22 **of better case scenarios.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 MR. WEBER: So what we are talking**  

### 2 **about here is sort of two different things.** 

### 3 **So this is the analytical results used to set** 

### 4 **the standard level, which is the target. And** 

### 5 **then when testing occurs to the standard** 

### 6 **level, for certification or other purposes,** 

### 7 **then we get into the realm of certification,** 

### 8 **compliance, and enforcement, where we get into** 

### 9 **sampling plans and we get into tolerances and** 

### 10 **that sort of thing. And those by design are** 

### 11 **to account for those variations that you speak** 

### 12 **of.** 

### 13 **MR. HIERLMEIER: But you have not** 

### 14 **accounted for them here. So, in effect, you** 

### 15 **are shifting the distribution because they are** 

### 16 **coming over and saying, "We want this outside** 

### 17 **tail to be correct." You have set the middle** 

### 18 **at that level.** 

### 19 **MR. WEBER: This is the target.** 

### 20 **And then that is a separate proceeding of the** 

### 21 **variation that's allowed.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 MR. HIERLMEIER: We found out it**  

### 2 **was a separate proceeding. And that's what** 

### 3 **I'm saying now is your target needs to be down** 

### 4 **far enough so when we get to the separate** 

### 5 **proceeding, we're not penalized by five or six** 

### 6 **percent. I mean, you're picking in the sense** 

### 7 **the best scenario and setting it, setting the** 

### 8 **product or energy levels, at what would be the** 

### 9 **best product available on the market, not** 

### 10 **taking into account there is an average. That** 

### 11 **is the average product. Cases don't always** 

### 12 **use the same amount of energy. There are test** 

### 13 **variables.** 

### 14 **So when they clip the ability to** 

### 15 **have that variation in your testing, it pushes** 

### 16 **the average to a lower energy level. So you** 

### 17 **need to start at a higher energy level so when** 

### 18 **we get pushed down with compliance, we end up** 

### 19 **here.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky?** 

### 21 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. We are not** 

### 22 **going to comment on that now.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks for**  

### 2 **your comment, Bruce.** 

### 3 **MR. WILKINS: Is that on the** 

### 4 **record, though?** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is what on the** 

### 6 **record?** 

### 7 **MR. WILKINS: His comments.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Oh, yes.** 

### 9 **MR. WILKINS: It's on the record?** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: There will be a** 

### 11 **transcript of this meeting.** 

### 12 **Additional comments here before we** 

### 13 **move on?** 

### 14 **(No response.)** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Collin. We** 

### 16 **are going to go for about five or ten more** 

### 17 **minutes. And then we'll break for lunch.** 

### 18 **Okay? Collin, keep going.** 

### 19 **MR. WEBER: All right. So the** 

### 20 **next step is talking about -- it's a little** 

### 21 **bit of a jump here. We are talking about** 

### 22 **engineering analysis results producing cost-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 efficiency curves. Well, now we just want to**  

### 2 **talk a little bit about how those were** 

### 3 **translated into trial standard levels, one of** 

### 4 **which became the proposed standard level.** 

### 5 **So, as you saw earlier, the** 

### 6 **engineering analysis was conducted at a single** 

### 7 **analysis point. Obviously there is a range of** 

### 8 **equipment sizes based on the metric of total** 

### 9 **display area or volume that's out there in the** 

### 10 **universe of products. So in order to** 

### 11 **translate that to a linear standard-level** 

### 12 **equation, DOE applied the analysis point and** 

### 13 **then an offset factor, which is basically a Y** 

### 14 **intercept.** 

### 15 **Those have been developed for** 

### 16 **previous standard levels. And in order to go** 

### 17 **from a single analysis point to a standard** 

### 18 **level equation, DOE adopted the existing** 

### 19 **offset factors from the 2009 final rule and** 

### 20 **from EPACT 2005 and then scaled those offset** 

### 21 **factors evenly, proportionately to the** 

### 22 **analytical results so that standards were**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 adjusted evenly for all sizes. That is**  

### 2 **certainly something that is open for comment.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?** 

### 4 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True** 

### 5 **Manufacturing. Unfortunately, the test** 

### 6 **procedure for commercial refrigeration** 

### 7 **includes eight hours of door openings. That** 

### 8 **is a non-controllable bias.** 

### 9 **If you take the same unit and** 

### 10 **change all kinds of components in it, that** 

### 11 **same amount of energy loss from eight hours of** 

### 12 **door opens is going to be the same energy loss** 

### 13 **out of eight hours of door openings if the** 

### 14 **unit is packed the same on the inside because** 

### 15 **basically cold air literally falls out of the** 

### 16 **unit.** 

### 17 **We can affect that slightly by** 

### 18 **turning off the internal fans when the doors** 

### 19 **are open, but other than that, you open a** 

### 20 **door. The standard says 70 degrees plus. The** 

### 21 **air falls out. The door closes. And we have** 

### 22 **seen numbers which indicate that that can be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 between 15 and 25 percent of the total power**  

### 2 **consumption into those sections with door** 

### 3 **openings. By offsetting proportionally, that** 

### 4 **offset is part of that door-opening function.** 

### 5 **And if you have adjusted offset, you have not** 

### 6 **adjusted for the door openings because of air** 

### 7 **constant.** 

### 8 **MR. WEBER: So that's a great** 

### 9 **point, actually. And it goes back to** 

### 10 **something that Jeff talked about, which I** 

### 11 **didn't get a chance to respond to earlier,** 

### 12 **which is that the door-opening air** 

### 13 **infiltration is accounted for or the** 

### 14 **Department made an effort to account for it,** 

### 15 **including that average hourly infiltrated air** 

### 16 **mass. So for door cases where there is** 

### 17 **opening, that number should have a prorated or** 

### 18 **normalized contribution from the door-opening** 

### 19 **period built into it.** 

### 20 **So that specifically is an area** 

### 21 **where the Department needs input or would** 

### 22 **welcome input. And that number, that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 infiltrated air mass of the corresponding heat**  

### 2 **load, it does not change with design option** 

### 3 **level. There is no even better door, better** 

### 4 **everything. There is no design option level** 

### 5 **that has the Department saying, less air will** 

### 6 **get in during door opening. So that's one** 

### 7 **thing I wanted to make clear.** 

### 8 **Now, this proportionate shift** 

### 9 **here, what this is, it's just simply saying at** 

### 10 **our analysis point, we were able to find X** 

### 11 **percent reduction. So that percent reduction** 

### 12 **will be applied across all equipment sizes.** 

### 13 **And if there is an alternative** 

### 14 **methodology that would be better supported by** 

### 15 **data, if there are suggestions, that would be** 

### 16 **excellent comment.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on** 

### 18 **offset factors? Jon?** 

### 19 **MR. McHUGH: So I just wanted to** 

### 20 **make sure about something. I mean, Charlie** 

### 21 **just brought up the issue of controlling** 

### 22 **evaporator fans during door openings to reduce**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 infiltration. It is my understanding that**  

### 2 **that is not a measure that you evaluate. Is** 

### 3 **that correct?** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: We did not evaluate** 

### 5 **evaporator fan controls. We had been told** 

### 6 **that there could be issues with temperature** 

### 7 **maintenance, and that's food safety.** 

### 8 **MR. McHUGH: And the doors open?** 

### 9 **MR. WEBER: Just in general.** 

### 10 **MR. McHUGH: Okay.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff?** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: I will speak to that** 

### 13 **on two points. One, the issue I think asked** 

### 14 **about the fans, that can obviously affect the** 

### 15 **coils freezing up I think is the biggest issue** 

### 16 **as far as turning the fan back or your fans** 

### 17 **off during door openings. It's something that** 

### 18 **has to be watched.** 

### 19 **One of my concerns, again going** 

### 20 **back to the way that DOE, what I'm hearing,** 

### 21 **how they modeled it, as an average across** 

### 22 **versus looking at the actual impact per door**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 opening or how many door openings there are in**  

### 2 **the test, again, we see a significant factor** 

### 3 **there that I'm going to -- and, again, without** 

### 4 **looking at what the models are, how they were** 

### 5 **modeled, whether that value that was used by** 

### 6 **DOE is sufficient to cover what the actual --** 

### 7 **you know, your standardized level, whether** 

### 8 **that really is ever flex with what happens** 

### 9 **with different products.** 

### 10 **MR. WEBER: I mean, that's** 

### 11 **certainly, as you mentioned earlier, an area** 

### 12 **where it's difficult to find data – what is** 

### 13 **the specific contribution of that infiltrated** 

### 14 **air. So any creative data, any creative** 

### 15 **solutions as to how to better dial that into** 

### 16 **the analysis would certainly be welcomed.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. For** 

### 18 **the next analysis, there certainly are tracer** 

### 19 **gas methods that would be applicable to** 

### 20 **actually looking at that loss with different** 

### 21 **cabinet types during that eight hours of off** 

### 22 **cycle and during the door-opening exercises as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 well. This is well-established experimental**  

### 2 **technology.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Harvey.** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: So the last thing to** 

### 5 **discuss is just the treatment of the secondary** 

### 6 **classes that weren't directly analyzed. This** 

### 7 **is the way that standards were "extended" to** 

### 8 **those classes from the primary.** 

### 9 **In the 2009 final rule, DOE** 

### 10 **developed a method for doing this. The method** 

### 11 **was based on matched pair analyses of sets of** 

### 12 **classes having a single major design** 

### 13 **differentiation, such as an operating** 

### 14 **temperature difference. It allowed DOE to** 

### 15 **sort of focus in and discern, all else held** 

### 16 **constant, the impact of varying the single** 

### 17 **characteristic.** 

### 18 **So an example would be taking two** 

### 19 **pieces of equipment that are very, very** 

### 20 **similar in construction size and other** 

### 21 **features except, for example, one operating at** 

### 22 **a low temperature, one operating at medium**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 temperature, and then doing that to tease out**  

### 2 **what is the energy consumption differential on** 

### 3 **margin inherent going to that lower operating** 

### 4 **temperature. And this was done for a number** 

### 5 **of factors: self-contained versus remote, low** 

### 6 **temperature versus medium temperature, that** 

### 7 **sort of thing.** 

### 8 **So these factors were then used to** 

### 9 **be able to take classes which had standards** 

### 10 **developed directly and then extend those** 

### 11 **through this multiplier approach. It's a sort** 

### 12 **of handicapping, if you will.** 

### 13 **This methodology is retained in** 

### 14 **the rule, in this current rule. DOE believed** 

### 15 **that the extension multipliers largely reflect** 

### 16 **inherent physical differences that don't scale** 

### 17 **with efficiency level. So, therefore, DOE** 

### 18 **didn't change these multipliers for this** 

### 19 **rulemaking.** 

### 20 **And full details are included in** 

### 21 **chapter 5. And we welcome comment.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Some comments here**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 on extension of standards? Charlie?**  

### 2 **MR. HON: Question, do you** 

### 3 **calculate -- because the majority of these** 

### 4 **units are either calculated by display area or** 

### 5 **internal volume, there are vast differences in** 

### 6 **ratios between internal volumes and external** 

### 7 **perimeter walls for infiltration of heat. And** 

### 8 **those are not directly proportional. The** 

### 9 **bigger, the rounder your square is or your** 

### 10 **cube is, the more efficient theoretically you** 

### 11 **would be. In reality, you have air movement** 

### 12 **issues, which are problematic. So did you** 

### 13 **account for the geometries of the case?** 

### 14 **MR. WEBER: So because of the** 

### 15 **number of classes that DOE directly analyzed,** 

### 16 **DOE didn't have to use extension on geometry.** 

### 17 **It was just for operating temperature or** 

### 18 **remote to self-contained.** 

### 19 **So geometries were all direct --** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff?** 

### 21 **MR. BAUMAN: I guess I just want** 

### 22 **to get clarification. Using the multipliers**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 and extensions, you mentioned that it was used**  

### 2 **for things such as different operating** 

### 3 **temperatures. Does that go across to like** 

### 4 **refrigerators to freezers?** 

### 5 **MR. WEBER: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. BAUMAN: I definitely would** 

### 7 **have concerns on that because there's more** 

### 8 **than refrigerant changes. There's a lot of** 

### 9 **differences between refrigerators and freezers** 

### 10 **--** 

### 11 **MR. WEBER: Sure. So --** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: -- within the** 

### 13 **operating temperature.** 

### 14 **MR. WEBER: Sure. So the intent** 

### 15 **was that this was all based on rating data or** 

### 16 **modeling data for the whole unit and so with** 

### 17 **the only design factor being analyzed being** 

### 18 **that. So, in effect, it serves a proxy where** 

### 19 **all of those individual design changes are** 

### 20 **rolled into that.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to be** 

### 22 **more specific now, Jeff? That seemed like a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 global answer.**  

### 2 **MR. BAUMAN: Yes. I mean, if** 

### 3 **you're doing your modeling of it, I assume you** 

### 4 **used compressor mapping and your compressor is** 

### 5 **obviously very different and the refrigerant** 

### 6 **very different in the characteristics of the -** 

### 7 **-** 

### 8 **MR. WEBER: The way these factors** 

### 9 **were developed is they were based on full** 

### 10 **system results. In fact, a lot of times this** 

### 11 **was a test for certification data. And so,** 

### 12 **thus, all of that is rolled into it.** 

### 13 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay. I'll take a** 

### 14 **closer look at the information to be able to** 

### 15 **make better input.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs?** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 18 **Collin, I guess the question because I haven't** 

### 19 **delved as deeply as I should have is, is the** 

### 20 **term "secondary equipment class" defined in** 

### 21 **the chapter? Because, particularly after** 

### 22 **Jeff's question, just it's not real obvious to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 me.**  

### 2 **MR. WEBER: It doesn't have a** 

### 3 **statutory or a common defined definition, but** 

### 4 **it's just those which DOE determined to have** 

### 5 **very small shipment volumes and, therefore,** 

### 6 **did not warrant direct --** 

### 7 **MR. SACHS: Ah. So it's small** 

### 8 **shipment volumes. It's not asserting that a** 

### 9 **medium-temperature unit of the same --** 

### 10 **MR. WEBER: No, no. It's just** 

### 11 **simply an analytical tool for focusing the** 

### 12 **analytical efforts on the highest returns.** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: Thank you. That** 

### 14 **helps.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe Sanders, who is** 

### 16 **joining us online, makes the comment** 

### 17 **"Evaporator fans off when doors are open is a** 

### 18 **very old technique, 20-plus years." Okay.** 

### 19 **All right.** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again.** 

### 21 **And a question, it would seem to me that that** 

### 22 **particular technology -- and I'm referring**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 back to the vertical versus horizontal --**  

### 2 **would have very different relative impacts on** 

### 3 **a horizontal case and a design to spill cold** 

### 4 **air vertical case.** 

### 5 **MR. WEBER: Horizontal case is** 

### 6 **usually cold wall without fans in a lot of** 

### 7 **instances, not all instances. Maybe Jeff** 

### 8 **wants to say something.** 

### 9 **MR. BAUMAN: Yes. I'll jump in.** 

### 10 **When you talk about work-top units, you go** 

### 11 **into any deli. You know, there are open-top** 

### 12 **units, but under-counter and work-top units** 

### 13 **with solid tops, which are covered under this,** 

### 14 **are a significant part of the food service** 

### 15 **industry.** 

### 16 **MR. WEBER: Okay. But a work-top** 

### 17 **unit would not be a horizontal door unit.** 

### 18 **This would be a vertical door unit. You just** 

### 19 **have a horizontal work-top.** 

### 20 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Yes. So** 

### 21 **you're talking about more --** 

### 22 **MR. WEBER: I'm talking about --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: -- what we would call**  

### 2 **-- again, not to insert confusion, but, to** 

### 3 **Harvey's point, you know, it's a vertical** 

### 4 **door, a horizontal configuration unit, as I** 

### 5 **mentioned earlier. That has different** 

### 6 **characteristics on air flow and such that it** 

### 7 **affected significantly. And I apologize for** 

### 8 **the confusion on the door. You're talking** 

### 9 **about doors versus cabinet.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: Thanks. I keep** 

### 11 **learning.** 

### 12 **MR. WEBER: And if it is felt that** 

### 13 **fans are off when doors are open is something** 

### 14 **that should be considered, 8-hour door-opening** 

### 15 **period, 10 times 6 seconds, so you could turn** 

### 16 **off the fans for 8 minutes in the model.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments** 

### 18 **here?** 

### 19 **MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman** 

### 20 **again. I just want to comment, too, Collin,** 

### 21 **that to just use a simple model that says I** 

### 22 **saved this much wattage on my fan motor or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 this much heat load, again, the effect of the**  

### 2 **air flow, I'm not sure how you're going to get** 

### 3 **to modeling that, but I think it is going to** 

### 4 **be more complex than just reducing it by eight** 

### 5 **seconds per -- I think a lot of people think** 

### 6 **that that is what the effect is going to be,** 

### 7 **but, again, the air exchange is going to be** 

### 8 **what significantly changes your overall** 

### 9 **performance.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I think have** 

### 11 **we covered this one now? Final comments here?** 

### 12 **(No response.)** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: So let's pause for** 

### 14 **lunch. Thanks for all of you for being** 

### 15 **patient. We are behind schedule. We lost 20** 

### 16 **or so minutes while we fiddled with the audio.** 

### 17 **Maybe we'll need to do that again.** 

### 18 **It's now 11:50. It takes just** 

### 19 **about an hour to eat lunch on site and not go** 

### 20 **anywhere. So that means we are going to** 

### 21 **resume at 12:50 here in this room. This room**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 will be locked. You can leave your stuff. It**  

### 2 **will be supervised in here.** 

### 3 **You must wear this badge if you're** 

### 4 **walking around the Forrestal Building. If you** 

### 5 **go to the big cafeteria, which is down on the** 

### 6 **ground floor and about 100 yards in that** 

### 7 **direction, you will have to pass back through** 

### 8 **a security portal. And you might need -- pay** 

### 9 **attention here, folks. You might need an ID.** 

### 10 **It's conceivable. Sometimes they do.** 

### 11 **Sometimes they don't.** 

### 12 **So enjoy your lunch. We'll see** 

### 13 **you back here at 12:50 to resume.** 

### 14 **(Whereupon, a luncheon recess was** 

### 15 **taken at 11:51 a.m.)** 

### 16 **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22**  **23**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N**  

### 2 **(12:56 p.m.)** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's start back** 

### 4 **up. I think the morning session was very** 

### 5 **productive. And the Department certainly** 

### 6 **benefitted from all of that good commentary.** 

### 7 **And they will want to see all of that in** 

### 8 **writing as well. So please send your very** 

### 9 **detailed comments with supporting evidence to** 

### 10 **the Department. And then they will be** 

### 11 **processing all of that information.** 

### 12 **We are going to proceed where we** 

### 13 **left off. And that takes us to markup** 

### 14 **analysis and Katie Coughlin.** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. I am Katie --** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Hey, folks, let's** 

### 17 **stop the sidebar conversation. Please take** 

### 18 **your seats.** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: My name is Katie** 

### 20 **Coughlin from Lawrence-Berkeley Lab. And I** 

### 21 **will be going through the next two sessions.** 

### 22 **To start with, I will be going over the final**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 two inputs to the LCC calculation, which are**  

### 2 **the energy use and the markups analysis.** 

### 3 **So this diagram shows -- the** 

### 4 **markups that I am going to discuss now are the** 

### 5 **distribution channel markups. Once the** 

### 6 **equipment leaves the manufacturer, before it** 

### 7 **gets to the final user, it goes through** 

### 8 **various distribution channels.** 

### 9 **And then the other piece of** 

### 10 **analysis is the energy use analysis for** 

### 11 **equipment energy use in the field. So for the** 

### 12 **energy use analysis, the purpose is to** 

### 13 **translate the engineering analysis energy** 

### 14 **consumption numbers into field use so that we** 

### 15 **can calculate the energy cost savings** 

### 16 **associated with improved efficiency.** 

### 17 **For this particular rule, the** 

### 18 **energy analysis is very simple because the** 

### 19 **engineering energy consumption model gives you** 

### 20 **these daily average kilowatt hour numbers.** 

### 21 **So essentially all that we have to** 

### 22 **do at this stage is to multiply those average**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 numbers by 365 to get the annual energy**  

### 2 **consumption at each standard level.** 

### 3 **I will just mention that in the** 

### 4 **preliminary analysis, the issue of impact of** 

### 5 **or interaction, essentially, between the** 

### 6 **refrigeration, largely heat output, and** 

### 7 **building space conditioning loads was** 

### 8 **considered, but the main issue with the** 

### 9 **effects is that they don't have a consistent** 

### 10 **sign. It can be positive or negative** 

### 11 **depending on a lot of different** 

### 12 **characteristics. And overall it is not a** 

### 13 **significant contributor to energy consumption.** 

### 14 **So DOE has concluded as a matter** 

### 15 **of policy that they are not going to consider** 

### 16 **the effect on space conditioning loads.** 

### 17 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,** 

### 18 **Danfoss. In many cases, I think that's** 

### 19 **largely true, but in the supermarket** 

### 20 **environment, where we have got all of these** 

### 21 **open cases, that is where the dehumidification** 

### 22 **is taking place. Dehumidification is much**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 more expensive to carry out in a refrigerated**  

### 2 **case or a freezer than it is in an HVAC system** 

### 3 **because of the much lower temperature. And if** 

### 4 **it's in the freezer case, then it has to be** 

### 5 **taken back out of that with some heat to** 

### 6 **defrost it. So the dehumidification cycle,** 

### 7 **it's not just the temperature. It's the** 

### 8 **dehumidification cycle that is so costly, the** 

### 9 **latent load.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert, is there** 

### 11 **any way you could quantify that?** 

### 12 **MR. WILKINS: I don't know how to** 

### 13 **quantify it. I'd have to stop and think about** 

### 14 **that. The case manufacturers or the** 

### 15 **supermarket chains would be the experts in** 

### 16 **that area.** 

### 17 **MR. STARR: Isn't the latent load** 

### 18 **also -- oh, sorry.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, please? Go** 

### 20 **ahead. Yes?** 

### 21 **MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.** 

### 22 **Isn't the latent load kind of captured in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 infiltration portion or is it -- in other**  

### 2 **words, they would be capturing it there, not** 

### 3 **necessarily at the -- I think the part they're** 

### 4 **talking about is the convection or maybe you** 

### 5 **can speak to that.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. To clarify,** 

### 7 **the issue here was the possible changes issue,** 

### 8 **heating and cooling loads, in a building that** 

### 9 **would result from the change in the energy use** 

### 10 **by the equipment in the building.** 

### 11 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage.** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: So it's a very** 

### 13 **small impact. And DOE is going to ignore it.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage?** 

### 15 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage,** 

### 16 **Southern Company. It is not a small impact,** 

### 17 **but I think the fact is they are all ready as** 

### 18 **a general rule dehumidifying the building** 

### 19 **beyond what a normal building would be in** 

### 20 **order to prevent moisture buildup in a freezer** 

### 21 **case. So the question is not, does it have an** 

### 22 **impact on the building but does changing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 efficiency have an impact on the building?**  

### 2 **And I'm not sure it really does. They are** 

### 3 **already dehumidifying substantially with the** 

### 4 **current equipment. I am not sure it would** 

### 5 **change if you increased the efficiency of the** 

### 6 **freezer equipment.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert?** 

### 8 **MR. WILKINS: I don't know all the** 

### 9 **ins and outs here, but it is tied in -- Robert** 

### 10 **Wilkins, Danfoss. It is tied into this issue** 

### 11 **of open case/closed case. And, as we** 

### 12 **discussed earlier this morning, I don't think** 

### 13 **you can look at those two as independent of** 

### 14 **each other because if we start raising the** 

### 15 **cost of these enclosed cases and the trend is** 

### 16 **moving that way, it is going to force people** 

### 17 **back into these cheap open cases that are much** 

### 18 **less energy-efficient. And it is in those** 

### 19 **open cases where so much of this latent load** 

### 20 **contributes to the load.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 MR. WILKINS: So it is all**  

### 2 **interchanged. And I think it is over** 

### 3 **simplistic just to ignore the** 

### 4 **interrelationship.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please? Find** 

### 6 **a microphone. And your name?** 

### 7 **MR. BOLDUC: Chris Bolduc from** 

### 8 **Lawrence-Berkeley National Lab. In the 2009** 

### 9 **rule, simulations were done using DOE-2 to** 

### 10 **look at impacts on HVAC, specifically in** 

### 11 **supermarkets.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mike. Get the mike** 

### 13 **closer to your mouth. I'm sorry.** 

### 14 **MR. BOLDUC: Thanks.** 

### 15 **MR. WILKINS: So work has been** 

### 16 **done.** 

### 17 **MR. BOLDUC: Yes, work has been** 

### 18 **done.** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. It was looked** 

### 20 **at in the 2009 analysis.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Will you say your** 

### 22 **name again, please?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 MR. BOLDUC: Chris Bolduc.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins. So** 

### 4 **if that is the case, I would refer back to** 

### 5 **that study, rather than just saying we decided** 

### 6 **not to look at it.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: Based on that** 

### 8 **study, DOE has concluded that the impacts are** 

### 9 **not significant. And, therefore, they will** 

### 10 **not be considered in this energy analysis.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks for** 

### 12 **clarifying.** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, moving on to** 

### 14 **the equipment markups, these markups are** 

### 15 **applied to the manufacturer price to determine** 

### 16 **the final purchase price for the consumer** 

### 17 **after considering the different distribution** 

### 18 **channels that are possible for this type of** 

### 19 **equipment.** 

### 20 **So there are sort of two pieces to** 

### 21 **the analysis. One is to split the markup** 

### 22 **itself into a baseline and an incremental**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 markup. So the baseline markup represents**  

### 2 **overall the distribution channel costs and** 

### 3 **profits that are applied to the baseline** 

### 4 **equipment, but when there is a price increment** 

### 5 **given to a piece of equipment, the** 

### 6 **distribution channel does not necessarily mark** 

### 7 **that up at the same rate as their baseline** 

### 8 **markup. So we define an incremental markup,** 

### 9 **which is applied to that price difference** 

### 10 **between the more efficient unit and the** 

### 11 **baseline unit.** 

### 12 **The other issue that arises is** 

### 13 **this description of the different distribution** 

### 14 **channels that are in the markup. There are** 

### 15 **essentially three that are considered here.** 

### 16 **One is national accounts, where a large** 

### 17 **purchaser deals directly with a large** 

### 18 **supplier. Second is going through a** 

### 19 **wholesaler. And the third is going through a** 

### 20 **contractor, who will purchase and install the** 

### 21 **equipment.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 These distribution channels were**  

### 2 **analyzed separately for display cases and** 

### 3 **solid-door equipment.** 

### 4 **And so the table shows the** 

### 5 **relative fraction of unit shift that falls** 

### 6 **into the three different distribution channels** 

### 7 **for the display cases and solid-door** 

### 8 **equipment. And these numbers were revised** 

### 9 **relative to the preliminary baseline comments** 

### 10 **received by DOE.** 

### 11 **And then for the markup analysis,** 

### 12 **the baseline and incremental markups are shown** 

### 13 **in the second table. And, again, because each** 

### 14 **distribution channel has different particular** 

### 15 **activities associated with it, these markups** 

### 16 **are somewhat different. So the national** 

### 17 **accounts channel, the baseline markup is 1.18** 

### 18 **and the incremental is 1.05, et cetera, for** 

### 19 **the other distribution channels.** 

### 20 **So DOE would welcome any** 

### 21 **additional input that might help clarify or** 

### 22 **refine these estimates, both of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 percentages assigned to each distribution**  

### 2 **channel and to the markups.** 

### 3 **So that is that. So now we will** 

### 4 **move on to the life-cycle cost analysis. So** 

### 5 **now essentially we have assembled all of the** 

### 6 **inputs to the life-cycle cost analysis. So** 

### 7 **now I will describe how the life-cycle cost is** 

### 8 **estimated and define the payback period as** 

### 9 **well.** 

### 10 **So the purpose of the life-cycle** 

### 11 **cost analysis is to look at the economics from** 

### 12 **the perspective of the purchaser of the** 

### 13 **equipment. And the focus here is primarily on** 

### 14 **the difference between the life-cycle cost for** 

### 15 **the baseline versus the various standard** 

### 16 **levels under consideration.** 

### 17 **From the life-cycle cost analysis,** 

### 18 **you can also define a simplified metric that** 

### 19 **is called the payback period, which I will** 

### 20 **define in a moment.** 

### 21 **So the method that the Department** 

### 22 **uses for life-cycle cost, conceptually it's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 fairly simple. You have a purchase price and**  

### 2 **an operating cost. But in order to capture** 

### 3 **all of the variability associated with** 

### 4 **different users of the equipment, we model a** 

### 5 **number of different parameters that go into** 

### 6 **this with distributions.** 

### 7 **And so in a spreadsheet model,** 

### 8 **which you can download from the website, we** 

### 9 **use Monte Carlo simulation to look at the** 

### 10 **various interactions between things like** 

### 11 **variability in discount rates, variability in** 

### 12 **energy prices, potential variability in** 

### 13 **lifetimes, that sort of thing.** 

### 14 **So, apart from that variability,** 

### 15 **the life-cycle cost itself is just the sum, as** 

### 16 **I said, of what we call the total installed** 

### 17 **cost of the equipment and the operating costs.** 

### 18 **So the total installed cost, you start with** 

### 19 **the manufacturer price. You mark it up with** 

### 20 **the distribution channel markup. And then you** 

### 21 **add any installation cost that might occur at** 

### 22 **the site of installation.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 The operating costs are primarily**  

### 2 **energies costs and then any kind of regular** 

### 3 **maintenance cost. And we consider sort of** 

### 4 **recurring significant repairs when they can be** 

### 5 **quantified and put into the analysis.** 

### 6 **And, again, the focus here is** 

### 7 **really on differences between the baseline and** 

### 8 **the improved efficiency cases.** 

### 9 **The payback period is a relatively** 

### 10 **simple calculation where we take the** 

### 11 **difference in the total installed cost, divide** 

### 12 **it by the difference in operating cost, and** 

### 13 **computer how many years it would take to pay** 

### 14 **back that increased purchase price.** 

### 15 **And, finally, when we do the LCC,** 

### 16 **we do the usual kind of economic discounting** 

### 17 **of the future stream of savings to arrive At** 

### 18 **an NPV associated with a change in the** 

### 19 **purchase.** 

### 20 **So this is an overview of the way** 

### 21 **the inputs interact. So, again, we have the** 

### 22 **engineering analysis, which produces the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 Manufacturer Selling Price. And then we get**  

### 2 **the distributor markup, contractor markup. We** 

### 3 **also add the sales taxes. That gives us the** 

### 4 **consumer price. Then we have a separate set** 

### 5 **of data on installation costs. That gives us** 

### 6 **the total installed cost. That's the top line** 

### 7 **of inputs. That's the equipment side of the** 

### 8 **life-cycle cost.** 

### 9 **And then the bottom set of inputs** 

### 10 **represents the sort of customer side. We get** 

### 11 **the energy consumption numbers. We have** 

### 12 **electricity prices. We calculate the annual** 

### 13 **energy cost associated with the equipment** 

### 14 **repair and maintenance. That gives us an** 

### 15 **overall annual operating cost.** 

### 16 **Then we take the full lifetime of** 

### 17 **the equipment and apply a discount rate to** 

### 18 **that stream of cost savings over the lifetime** 

### 19 **of the equipment. And we also apply an** 

### 20 **electricity price trend, which we take from** 

### 21 **the annual energy outlook. And so you get a** 

### 22 **lifetime operating cost associated with a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 piece of equipment. And those two go into the**  

### 2 **life-cycle cost.** 

### 3 **So there are a couple of** 

### 4 **assumptions that are made for this rule about** 

### 5 **repair and maintenance costs. The first is** 

### 6 **that the general maintenance costs don't vary** 

### 7 **with efficiency level except for particular** 

### 8 **design options related to lighting. And those** 

### 9 **are calculated explicitly.** 

### 10 **The annualized repair cost was** 

### 11 **retained from the 2009 rule. So these do vary** 

### 12 **by equipment class. And the repair costs here** 

### 13 **that do vary by efficiency are apart from the** 

### 14 **regular maintenance costs. So we have sort of** 

### 15 **standard maintenance and then actual repairs.** 

### 16 **The repair costs are assumed to scale with** 

### 17 **the price of the equipment. So that implies** 

### 18 **that they scale with the efficiency level as** 

### 19 **well.** 

### 20 **The annual preventative** 

### 21 **maintenance costs are taken from RS Means data** 

### 22 **and just basically have two numbers for the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 self-contained versus remote condensing**  

### 2 **equipment. And then the lighting maintenance** 

### 3 **costs were essentially developed by** 

### 4 **calculating the lifetimes of the various** 

### 5 **lighting options and changing out the light** 

### 6 **bulbs and any increased labor that may be** 

### 7 **associated with those different installation** 

### 8 **types.** 

### 9 **MR. COUSINS: Just for** 

### 10 **clarification?** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, please?** 

### 12 **MR. COUSINS: Steve Cousins. So,** 

### 13 **then, with the maintenance cost, there wasn't** 

### 14 **any consideration given to a refrigerant cost** 

### 15 **or refrigerant handling or refrigerant** 

### 16 **disposal involved in it?** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: Again, since the** 

### 18 **focus is on the difference between the** 

### 19 **baseline and the higher standard level, it is** 

### 20 **assumed that those would be the same in both** 

### 21 **cases.** 

### 22 **MR. COUSINS: One of the reasons**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 why we are moving to R744 is to get away from**  

### 2 **the escalating costs with HFCs. They don't** 

### 3 **stay fixed in time forever. But you say that** 

### 4 **wasn't considered?** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: I would say the** 

### 6 **Department's focus is on the difference in** 

### 7 **costs between baseline equipment and improved** 

### 8 **efficiency equipment.** 

### 9 **MR. COUSINS: That's what I'm** 

### 10 **talking about: baseline equipment, which is** 

### 11 **what is in the market today, versus what we** 

### 12 **are going to be putting out by 2017.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: You are saying the** 

### 14 **refrigerant will be different.** 

### 15 **MR. COUSINS: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Got it.** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. The different** 

### 18 **refrigerants were not considered in the** 

### 19 **engineering analysis.** 

### 20 **MR. COUSINS: Okay.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Steve.** 

### 22 **So other comments here? Yes,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 Bruce, please?**  

### 2 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce Hierlmeier.** 

### 3 **I just had a question. At $35 for self** 

### 4 **contained and $220 for remote condensing, is** 

### 5 **that on a per-case basis? Do you know if the** 

### 6 **--** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: Per unit, yes. For** 

### 8 **the typical unit, the representative unit** 

### 9 **considered in the engineering.** 

### 10 **MR. HIERLMEIER: I mean, I would** 

### 11 **have thought the -- if someone had asked me, I** 

### 12 **would have thought the opposite. You are** 

### 13 **doing more work on a self-contained. You have** 

### 14 **to come out and clean the condenser, do things** 

### 15 **with it. The water pump doesn't work, you** 

### 16 **know, water on the floor; whereas, the remote** 

### 17 **case kind of runs other than there's work in** 

### 18 **the back room, you're going to clean a large** 

### 19 **condenser or fix a large leak. But I would** 

### 20 **have thought those numbers were flipped.** 

### 21 **MR. CYMBALSKY: How many times do** 

### 22 **you do it over the life? This is annualized**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 over the life. So do you do the remote only**  

### 2 **once every several years? And the other one** 

### 3 **you do every year, couple of months?** 

### 4 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Right.** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. So that's** 

### 6 **what that captures.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. This is the** 

### 8 **lifetime maintenance cost divided by lifetime.** 

### 9 **So it's annualized, just not the same as** 

### 10 **annual, yes.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs? No?** 

### 12 **Okay. Other comments here? So, Bruce, your** 

### 13 **experience in writing to the Department will** 

### 14 **be very helpful to them. Harvey?** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs.** 

### 16 **I was a little reluctant because it may seem** 

### 17 **that I'm piling on, but the debaters, of whom** 

### 18 **I've never been a part, always have said that** 

### 19 **if you let a Jesuit establish the premises for** 

### 20 **the debate, he has already won. And the early** 

### 21 **decision to not look at alternative** 

### 22 **refrigerants has huge downstream consequences,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 --**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Right.** 

### 3 **MR. SACHS: -- which is what Steve** 

### 4 **was referring to. And this is why,** 

### 5 **recognizing that this thing had a lot of delay** 

### 6 **and that the market has changed, this is why** 

### 7 **some of us are concerned that our premise was** 

### 8 **that we will exclusively consider HFC** 

### 9 **refrigerants. End of rant.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 11 **Yes, Jeff?** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: I just want to get** 

### 13 **clarification confirmation. One of the things** 

### 14 **that was mentioned with Bruce before was the** 

### 15 **differences in self-contained or remote. And** 

### 16 **it was a discussion about cleaning condensers** 

### 17 **and things like that. This doesn't. The** 

### 18 **chart provided doesn't address any of that.** 

### 19 **This is only for lighting. Is that correct?** 

### 20 **And so if you looked at --** 

### 21 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. The next** 

### 22 **slide is only lighting costs. That's correct.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. But if you had**  

### 2 **a chart for -- I mean, you say DOE didn't** 

### 3 **consider any difference in regular maintenance** 

### 4 **at all except for the self-contained or** 

### 5 **whatever, none of that changes. If you change** 

### 6 **evaporators and potentially you have a smaller** 

### 7 **evaporator or a condenser with tighter fins** 

### 8 **that you might need to clean more often and** 

### 9 **things, those things were not considered at** 

### 10 **all in the analysis at this point. Is that** 

### 11 **correct?** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: That is correct.** 

### 13 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay.** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: So if you want to** 

### 15 **submit a comment saying that we should add** 

### 16 **additional maintenance costs, we would** 

### 17 **definitely appreciate that.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs?** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: Again, a** 

### 20 **clarification. The baseline in each of these** 

### 21 **cases is T8 for the lighting?** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: Baseline is T8? Is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 that true for all of the equipment classes on**  

### 2 **our engineering?** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe they can --** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: Collin Weber with** 

### 5 **Navigant. So for engineering, we started** 

### 6 **looking at units based at the lowest level,** 

### 7 **which included incorporated T8 lighting. For** 

### 8 **LCC purposes, the engineering curve was** 

### 9 **truncated at a level of performance equating** 

### 10 **to the current standards. That would be the** 

### 11 **2012 or EPACT 2009 standards.** 

### 12 **And so for LCC purposes, the** 

### 13 **lighting could be T8 or LED depending on where** 

### 14 **that fell in the cost curve.** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: I think that's** 

### 16 **helpful, Collin, and I appreciate it. My** 

### 17 **experience is relatively limited with LEDs,** 

### 18 **but the trucking industry raced to embrace** 

### 19 **them because it was million-mile stuff and** 

### 20 **substantially reduce their maintenance costs.** 

### 21 **They weren't worried about the power going to** 

### 22 **the brake lights.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 So what should I be reading or how**  

### 2 **can I understand increasing lighting** 

### 3 **maintenance costs with TSL if we're certainly** 

### 4 **at LEDs with the highest TSLs? What am I** 

### 5 **missing?** 

### 6 **MR. WEBER: As the LCC analysis,** 

### 7 **you know, I would defer to my colleagues on** 

### 8 **that. But, I mean, in absolute terms, when** 

### 9 **LEDs do require a replacement, they still cost** 

### 10 **more in absolute terms to replace than a T8 at** 

### 11 **this point.** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. I think --** 

### 13 **MR. SACHS: But the question is --** 

### 14 **okay. So you're saying that --** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. To give you** 

### 16 **a detailed answer --** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: -- you're looking at** 

### 18 **200,000 operating hours, rather than 50,000** 

### 19 **operating hours, because the LEDs should be** 

### 20 **50,000-hour life cycles.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. So the**  

### 2 **operating life of the lamp is included in the** 

### 3 **lighting costs.** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: Thank you, Katie.** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. Okay. I** 

### 6 **mean, again, you would need to go to the** 

### 7 **engineering to map the TSLs to the lighting** 

### 8 **technology that is associated with each of the** 

### 9 **equipment classes to really understand the** 

### 10 **details of this chart, but --** 

### 11 **MR. SACHS: I'm not that grand.** 

### 12 **Thank you.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Victor?** 

### 14 **MR. V. ANDERSON: Victor Anderson.** 

### 15 **Why is there a different cost associated** 

### 16 **within the same group being, say, take the SOC** 

### 17 **again, remote condensing versus self-contained** 

### 18 **condensing? On any level, one is cheaper than** 

### 19 **the other to maintain. Yet, they both use the** 

### 20 **exact same equipment for lighting, lighting** 

### 21 **specific.** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. The**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1 efficiency levels that go into the definition**  

### 2 **at the TSL may have different assemblages of** 

### 3 **design options for these different equipment** 

### 4 **classes. So, again, you need to map the** 

### 5 **efficiency levels, which tell you what design** 

### 6 **options are associated with an efficiency** 

### 7 **level to the trial standard level, which is a** 

### 8 **collection of efficiency levels.** 

### 9 **So, without that piece of** 

### 10 **information, we can't say exactly which** 

### 11 **lighting technology is associated with each** 

### 12 **entry in this table. So that's one** 

### 13 **consideration.** 

### 14 **The second consideration is the** 

### 15 **number of bulbs --** 

### 16 **MR. V. ANDERSON: Yes.** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: -- that are** 

### 18 **typically in a case and possible increases in** 

### 19 **labor costs associated with changing out the** 

### 20 **type of bulb when you change the technology.** 

### 21 **So there's not a simple translation between** 

### 22 **equipment class and lighting cost. You**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190**  **1 actually have to go look at the engineering**  

### 2 **and look at the number of bulbs. And then if** 

### 3 **you're going from T8 to LED, there may be** 

### 4 **labor changes, that sort of thing.** 

### 5 **MR. V. ANDERSON: I am just** 

### 6 **speaking about remote and self-contained. I** 

### 7 **guess I am confused. I'll withdraw the** 

### 8 **question.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: Well, again, the** 

### 10 **efficiency levels are slightly different for** 

### 11 **remote and self-contained.** 

### 12 **MR. V. ANDERSON: On lighting,** 

### 13 **it's just lighting. You're looking at just** 

### 14 **lighting.** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right, but --** 

### 16 **MR. V. ANDERSON: You're not** 

### 17 **looking at everything. You're looking at just** 

### 18 **--** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: The efficiency** 

### 20 **level --** 

### 21 **MR. V. ANDERSON: -- lighting** 

### 22 **maintenance.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: Right, but the**  

### 2 **efficiency level does not prescribe a lighting** 

### 3 **technology. So you don't necessarily know** 

### 4 **what design options have gone into the** 

### 5 **definition of each TSL. It really depends on** 

### 6 **how all the different possible design options** 

### 7 **interact to produce a particular efficiency** 

### 8 **improvement.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mary?** 

### 10 **MS. DANE: This is Mary from** 

### 11 **Traulsen. Maybe I can re-ask the question a** 

### 12 **different way. If this chart looks at** 

### 13 **annualized lighting maintenance only, we're** 

### 14 **saying that light in a remote cabinet would be** 

### 15 **the same as a light in the self-contained** 

### 16 **cabinet.** 

### 17 **MR. V. ANDERSON: Right.** 

### 18 **MS. DANE: It doesn't matter what** 

### 19 **you are trying to annualize or that. That** 

### 20 **chart says, "Annualized lighting maintenance."** 

### 21 **So why would you -- you're saying those** 

### 22 **models. And then you skew it by saying that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192**  **1 those models have lots of different things**  

### 2 **added and I have to go back to the TLC** 

### 3 **document or TSL document and trace it all** 

### 4 **back. So how are you doing apples to apples** 

### 5 **comparison on those numbers?** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: I am just realizing** 

### 7 **there is a slide that we should have put in** 

### 8 **already, which talks about how the TSLs are** 

### 9 **composed. So in terms of, again, the** 

### 10 **particular specification of the case in the** 

### 11 **remote versus self-contained may be somewhat** 

### 12 **different. Again, I can ask the engineering** 

### 13 **team to check that, which may arrive at how** 

### 14 **the different number of bulbs or different** 

### 15 **placement of bulbs, which may give you a** 

### 16 **different number.** 

### 17 **But the other issue is that again,** 

### 18 **because the goal of the analysis is to produce** 

### 19 **essentially a cost associated with a given** 

### 20 **increment and efficiency, it is not** 

### 21 **necessarily saying that there is a particular** 

### 22 **design attached to it. So it's not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193**  **1 necessarily the case that TSL 2 for the remote**  

### 2 **and the self-contained have the same design** 

### 3 **options associated with them. And if they** 

### 4 **don't have the same design options associated** 

### 5 **with them, they will not have the same** 

### 6 **maintenance costs for lighting. That's the** 

### 7 **point I'm trying to make about the cross** 

### 8 **referencing of the tables.** 

### 9 **MR. CYMBALSKY: You could have** 

### 10 **made efficiency improvements, both in the** 

### 11 **unit, right, and not inside the cabinet? And** 

### 12 **the other one could have done the lighting** 

### 13 **thing where the remote one didn't. So you** 

### 14 **would have a different number.** 

### 15 **MR. BAUMAN: Yes. I think it** 

### 16 **would be helpful if DOE can provide some** 

### 17 **additional background on how these were -- the** 

### 18 **one area, I had the same confusion as Victor** 

### 19 **somewhat on the self-contained and the** 

### 20 **remotes.** 

### 21 **I also notice it on vertical** 

### 22 **closed transparent self-contained load**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194**  **1 temperature. The cost of the annual**  

### 2 **maintenance actually goes down on those, half** 

### 3 **of what it is from the baseline. I'm confused** 

### 4 **again. Just more information will help. But,** 

### 5 **you know, I am kind of assuming that, you** 

### 6 **know, the various TSLs are better lighting or** 

### 7 **LED lighting or more LED lighting versus that** 

### 8 **you found a way to reduce the energy** 

### 9 **consumption and cut the cost of the** 

### 10 **maintenance in half. That's pretty** 

### 11 **impressive.** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: That would probably** 

### 13 **be due to longer lifetimes.** 

### 14 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay. I am still** 

### 15 **confused, then, why that wouldn't affect other** 

### 16 **products, other similar products, and a** 

### 17 **similar kind -- most of the items, again, go** 

### 18 **up but on the second line, vertical open** 

### 19 **remote low-temp again goes down versus** 

### 20 **everything else that goes up. So I'll just** 

### 21 **defer to if we can get more information about** 

### 22 **this.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195**  **1 I just have to speak to some of**  

### 2 **the things. There's obviously a lot of** 

### 3 **information here you are asking manufacturers** 

### 4 **to do a lot of commenting on, which we are** 

### 5 **going to try, but, boy, there's a lot of stuff** 

### 6 **that needs to be reviewed that I don't think** 

### 7 **we were necessarily expecting those levels of** 

### 8 **I'll say time. I mean, hopefully it's going** 

### 9 **to be worth our while to do all of those** 

### 10 **things. And I appreciate DOE taking comment** 

### 11 **on those, but this is a big investment on** 

### 12 **manufacturers, especially small manufacturers,** 

### 13 **like us, as far as the effort this is going to** 

### 14 **take to go through all of this.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charles?** 

### 16 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon. There are** 

### 17 **some issues there with low temp because low** 

### 18 **temps traditionally have to have special** 

### 19 **bulbs, special conditions, and quite often** 

### 20 **fail more commonly because of the cold** 

### 21 **conditions. They fail to start if you have** 

### 22 **fluorescent lamps. So there is a substantial**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196**  **1 increase of cost in lighting in a freezer**  

### 2 **compared to a refrigerator. And the LEDs** 

### 3 **actually like the cold.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert?** 

### 5 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Just a second. A** 

### 7 **comment from --** 

### 8 **MR. WILKINS: I think, Katie, I** 

### 9 **understand your analysis and you're looking at** 

### 10 **the big picture of the whole case and not just** 

### 11 **incrementally to individual lights. But as** 

### 12 **you go back and discuss with manufacturers,** 

### 13 **ask them about how they actually operate their** 

### 14 **businesses because a medium-temperature reach** 

### 15 **in case of a certain size and a medium** 

### 16 **temperature remote and self-contained are the** 

### 17 **same units. The manufacturers aren't likely** 

### 18 **to have a very different sort of procedure or** 

### 19 **maybe they are, but I would think in their** 

### 20 **operation, they would want to be standardizing** 

### 21 **and using one technology across the product** 

### 22 **lines, rather than picking and choosing based**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197**  **1 on this sort of analysis. I am just urging**  

### 2 **you --** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right.** 

### 4 **MR. WILKINS: -- to seek comments** 

### 5 **from them on that issue and how that decision** 

### 6 **is made.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: Well, again, the** 

### 8 **lighting configurations are described in** 

### 9 **chapter 5 with the engineering.** 

### 10 **MR. WILKINS: Yes. I understand** 

### 11 **that. I understand how you have done it. I** 

### 12 **am saying consider some other factors; that** 

### 13 **is, how the manufacturers design and operate** 

### 14 **their products and the scale. You know,** 

### 15 **Chevrolet doesn't put different kinds of** 

### 16 **lighting on every different unit just because** 

### 17 **one gets 26 miles a gallon and one gets 27.** 

### 18 **They have considerations of their product line** 

### 19 **management and standardizing the SKUs and the** 

### 20 **operations and the factor to also consider.** 

### 21 **And I think that's why this is getting** 

### 22 **questioned a lot. This appears to be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198**  **1 inconsistent.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Collin, did you** 

### 3 **have something to add at this point?** 

### 4 **MR. WEBER: I was just going to** 

### 5 **mention -- this can even be off the record. I** 

### 6 **was going to mention, Charlie, that we** 

### 7 **considered the difference between low** 

### 8 **temperature and medium-temperature T8s. And** 

### 9 **that can also take it into account.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey.** 

### 11 **Again, it's a question in the service life,** 

### 12 **you differentiate between large supermarket** 

### 13 **chains and mom and pops and without doing** 

### 14 **anything other than trying to transfer a** 

### 15 **little bit of dangerous knowledge from HVAC, I** 

### 16 **would expect that they are similarly** 

### 17 **differences and, for that matter, from general** 

### 18 **purpose lighting differences in the** 

### 19 **maintenance practices by customer, by user.** 

### 20 **The large accounts are quite likely to replace** 

### 21 **all of the lighting at something like 85** 

### 22 **percent of expected life. And I would expect**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199**  **1 the smaller accounts to be running into a**  

### 2 **failure. And there are enormous differences** 

### 3 **in the service costs per hour for the** 

### 4 **technician to come out.** 

### 5 **So I am concerned if we -- I mean,** 

### 6 **I hate to get over and over and over the top** 

### 7 **on the analysis, but did you all explore with** 

### 8 **some customer groups the differences in** 

### 9 **maintenance practices? I'm seeing some** 

### 10 **colleagues shaking their heads vigorously.** 

### 11 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. I mean, DOE** 

### 12 **did receive that comment and did look into** 

### 13 **those issues. We have not received comments** 

### 14 **from any of the users. So if there is a way** 

### 15 **to encourage them to comment directly, that** 

### 16 **would be of great value.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: Have you asked them?** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's not --** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: John, do you have a** 

### 20 **comment or a question? Not at this time.** 

### 21 **Okay. So, then, let's --** 

### 22 **MS. COUGHLIN: Move on?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Moving ahead.**  

### 2 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So this is** 

### 3 **an invitation for comment on the issues we** 

### 4 **have just been discussing, so regular** 

### 5 **maintenance costs and repair costs.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Anything** 

### 7 **additional?** 

### 8 **MS. COUGHLIN: But, again, if** 

### 9 **there are particular design options that you** 

### 10 **can identify that very clearly there will be** 

### 11 **additional maintenance associated with them,** 

### 12 **then we will be very interested to hear those** 

### 13 **comments.** 

### 14 **So the additional inputs to the** 

### 15 **LCC are installation costs, where, again,** 

### 16 **these are retained from the 2009 rule, so** 

### 17 **nothing new there. They have just been** 

### 18 **escalated to 2012 dollars. And numbers for** 

### 19 **self-contained and remote equipment are given** 

### 20 **here.** 

### 21 **The discount rates, DOE uses** 

### 22 **publicly available data to develop industry-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201**  **1 specific discount rates. And those are**  

### 2 **actually treated as a distribution within the** 

### 3 **LCC. Those represent the rate at which the** 

### 4 **future stream of cost savings is discounted in** 

### 5 **calculating the life-cycle cost for a given** 

### 6 **consumer.** 

### 7 **For electricity prices, DOE used** 

### 8 **EIA data to develop regionally specific** 

### 9 **electricity prices and also looked at the** 

### 10 **CBECS surveys to understand the variability of** 

### 11 **electricity prices for different sectors; for** 

### 12 **example, food sales and service versus large** 

### 13 **supermarket.** 

### 14 **Finally, since we have a life** 

### 15 **cycle cost over a lifetime, which is typically** 

### 16 **10 to 15 years, we use an electricity price** 

### 17 **trend, which we take out of the annual energy** 

### 18 **outlook published by EIA. And we used the** 

### 19 **commercial sector price index to escalate** 

### 20 **energy prices over that period. And this** 

### 21 **again is regionally specific.** 

### 22 **The lifetime here is defined.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202**  **1 This is called an economic lifetime. This is**  

### 2 **typically the life of a unit in use. The** 

### 3 **engineering lifetime, meaning the time until** 

### 4 **it breaks, may be longer or shorter. So the** 

### 5 **lifetime that DOE uses in the LCC analysis is** 

### 6 **15 years for display cases in small businesses** 

### 7 **and 10 years for all remaining equipment.** 

### 8 **But, again, these are just the median values.** 

### 9 **We use a Weibull distribution, which is a** 

### 10 **standard distribution for failure rates. So** 

### 11 **in the LCC, there will be some units with** 

### 12 **shorter and some units with longer lifetimes.** 

### 13 **And we would welcome any** 

### 14 **additional information on either the** 

### 15 **engineering or the economic lifetime of these** 

### 16 **units.** 

### 17 **So one of the things that we try** 

### 18 **to do with the life-cycle cost is really** 

### 19 **estimate the impact that the standard will** 

### 20 **have on the market. So at any given time,** 

### 21 **there are always going to be some people who** 

### 22 **are purchasing equipment that is already above**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203**  **1 a given baseline. So those purchasers are not**  

### 2 **affected by the existence of the standard.** 

### 3 **So we use what we call a base case** 

### 4 **efficiency distribution to represent the** 

### 5 **distribution of equipment or equipment** 

### 6 **efficiencies that are purchased in the absence** 

### 7 **of the standard.** 

### 8 **For this particular product, DOE** 

### 9 **doesn't have access to much data about that** 

### 10 **market share by efficiency level. So we used** 

### 11 **a cost-based model, which is a very standard** 

### 12 **approach that is used in econometric modeling,** 

### 13 **to try to predict what consumers would buy** 

### 14 **given an assumption about their sensitivity to** 

### 15 **first cost versus their sensitivity to** 

### 16 **operating costs.** 

### 17 **So this is a theoretical model,** 

### 18 **unfortunately flawed by the lack of data. And** 

### 19 **so it represents what people would buy if it** 

### 20 **were available. It does not tell you whether** 

### 21 **or not things are available. And the** 

### 22 **parameters that are used in this model are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204**  **1 taken from the National Energy Modeling**  

### 2 **System, which is what is used to generate the** 

### 3 **annual energy outlook. So, again, this** 

### 4 **represents in a very general way the balance** 

### 5 **of purchaser sensitivity to an increase in** 

### 6 **operating costs versus an increase in purchase** 

### 7 **price.** 

### 8 **So what we end up with is a base** 

### 9 **case distribution of efficiencies that** 

### 10 **stakeholders have commented they do not feel** 

### 11 **is really representative of the current** 

### 12 **market. And we're aware of that. And, again,** 

### 13 **any input that can help us to quantify the** 

### 14 **existing market share by efficiency level** 

### 15 **would be used to adapt these numbers.** 

### 16 **So this table is just an** 

### 17 **illustration. So we can pick the top row** 

### 18 **since it's easy to read. So this tells you** 

### 19 **that the base case, meaning the market that we** 

### 20 **anticipate to exist in 2017, when the standard** 

### 21 **takes effect, this is the distribution of each** 

### 22 **equipment class across the efficiency levels**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205**  **1 defined by the engineering. So in the first**  

### 2 **row, you can see that there are six technical** 

### 3 **efficiency levels and there are purchases made** 

### 4 **at all of these levels, even up to the top** 

### 5 **level.** 

### 6 **So what would happen, for example,** 

### 7 **in a hypothetical standard that, say, was set** 

### 8 **at EL 4, for all of the people that were** 

### 9 **already purchasing EL 4, 5, or 6, they would** 

### 10 **be unaffected by the standard. So when you do** 

### 11 **their LCC, it's zero because they don't change** 

### 12 **their purchase decision.** 

### 13 **So, although it's possible that** 

### 14 **these numbers are not accurate, they don't** 

### 15 **have very much impact on the LCC itself. All** 

### 16 **that would happen if you change these base** 

### 17 **case distributions is you would take those** 

### 18 **consumers that have the LCC of zero who are** 

### 19 **already purchasing high-efficiency equipment** 

### 20 **and you would distribute them over LCC results** 

### 21 **that are not zero that are still cost** 

### 22 **effective.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206**  **1 It does, however, have an impact**  

### 2 **on the LCC results that are not zero but are** 

### 3 **still cost-effective. It does, however, have** 

### 4 **an impact on the national impacts analysis,** 

### 5 **where we estimate total energy consumption.** 

### 6 **So, again, DOE would welcome any** 

### 7 **additional information. This is a very key** 

### 8 **input, actually, for getting more refined** 

### 9 **estimates of the energy savings and other** 

### 10 **impacts of the standard. So any understanding** 

### 11 **that we can have of the current distribution** 

### 12 **of purchases by efficiency would be very** 

### 13 **helpful.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comments on LCC** 

### 15 **inputs? Charles?** 

### 16 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I think** 

### 17 **that, even within the same categories on some** 

### 18 **of these charts, there are vast differences in** 

### 19 **the way certain items are purchased because we** 

### 20 **have differing markets that we service. The** 

### 21 **most difficult market to predict is the** 

### 22 **individually owned restaurant. Individually**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207**  **1 owned restaurant is usually undercapitalized**  

### 2 **or willing to buy lowest-priced item in the** 

### 3 **market, no matter what, because they are** 

### 4 **under-capitalized. They effectively have near** 

### 5 **zero information on efficiencies. And, as** 

### 6 **prices go up, they keep units in the market,** 

### 7 **just continue to resell and resell and resell** 

### 8 **over and over and over again and stay in the** 

### 9 **market as the price differential between a** 

### 10 **used and a new piece of equipment occurs.** 

### 11 **It is a very difficult situation.** 

### 12 **And, according to National Restaurant** 

### 13 **Association numbers, between 80 and 90 percent** 

### 14 **of all restaurants are not chain-related.** 

### 15 **They open up within a year, close within a** 

### 16 **year. And those guys continue to recycle the** 

### 17 **old stuff because it's cheaper for a national** 

### 18 **purchase.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments** 

### 20 **here? Jon?** 

### 21 **MR. McHUGH: Yes. I had some** 

### 22 **questions about --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone.**  

### 2 **MR. McHUGH: Oh, I'm sorry. Jon** 

### 3 **McHugh. Some questions about the assumptions** 

### 4 **used for costs moving forward. You know,** 

### 5 **potentially products that you are looking at** 

### 6 **that are premium efficiency products and are** 

### 7 **afforded a premium in the market, once they** 

### 8 **become the minimum efficiency that you can** 

### 9 **purchase tend to be commoditized. And is** 

### 10 **there any sort of model that you are looking** 

### 11 **at that would account for the commoditization** 

### 12 **and reduction in cost over time? That is** 

### 13 **something beyond the concept of the cost curve** 

### 14 **or learning curve, which is talking about, you** 

### 15 **know, more products being in the market and** 

### 16 **efficiencies of transactions. So is there** 

### 17 **anything in this that does account for** 

### 18 **commoditization that would potentially show** 

### 19 **that these costs are actually decreasing over** 

### 20 **time?** 

### 21 **MS. COUGHLIN: That appears in the** 

### 22 **national impacts analysis but not in the LCC.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209**  **1 MR. McHUGH: Oh, okay.**  

### 2 **MS. COUGHLIN: So the LCC is more** 

### 3 **of a snapshot.** 

### 4 **MR. McHUGH: It's a snapshot.** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. McHUGH: So of a particular** 

### 7 **purchase. It's not looking at 20 years out or** 

### 8 **10 years out. It's saying --** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.** 

### 10 **MR. McHUGH: -- 2017. Okay. That** 

### 11 **will be discussed later on. Thank you.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments** 

### 13 **here?** 

### 14 **(No response.)** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So what I am** 

### 17 **going to do here is really just go over the** 

### 18 **column headers. And then the numbers are --** 

### 19 **there is a lot of variability in the numbers** 

### 20 **due to the different sizes, essentially, and** 

### 21 **initial purchase price of the cases.** 

### 22 **So the first column is, of course,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210**  **1 the equipment class, then the next column --**  

### 2 **this is all for TSL 4 analysis, the average** 

### 3 **life-cycle cost at TSL 4 for each equipment** 

### 4 **class. So that is the average over all the** 

### 5 **different energy prices, discount rates,** 

### 6 **lifetimes, everything, then the average LCC** 

### 7 **savings. So this is relative to the baseline** 

### 8 **unit.** 

### 9 **Then the next three columns divide** 

### 10 **the purchaser population into three** 

### 11 **categories. The first is those who have a net** 

### 12 **cost. So for the combination of parameters,** 

### 13 **which would typically be, say, a short** 

### 14 **lifetime and a low energy price, they may have** 

### 15 **a net cost associated with TSL 4. They spent** 

### 16 **more than they got back.** 

### 17 **The second category is the no** 

### 18 **impact. These are the group of people who** 

### 19 **would have purchased high-efficiency equipment** 

### 20 **anyway according to the model who are,** 

### 21 **therefore, not affected by the standard.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211**  **1 And then this second to last**  

### 2 **column is those who have a net benefit.** 

### 3 **And, finally, the last column** 

### 4 **shows the payback period, which, as I said** 

### 5 **before, is the ratio of the change in the** 

### 6 **total installed cost to the change in the** 

### 7 **operating costs, which if you did not discount** 

### 8 **the operating cost would be how many years it** 

### 9 **takes to get back your initial up-front** 

### 10 **investment. And for the majority of equipment** 

### 11 **classes, the paybacks are pretty short, three** 

### 12 **to four years. And a very rough rule of thumb** 

### 13 **is that if you have a payback that is less** 

### 14 **than, significantly less than, the equipment** 

### 15 **lifetime, you are going to have a positive LCC** 

### 16 **result.** 

### 17 **So there is a very, very large** 

### 18 **number of tables in the TSD detailing the LCC** 

### 19 **results for each of the TSLs as well as the** 

### 20 **equipment classes.** 

### 21 **Any questions?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please? And**  

### 2 **say your name as well.** 

### 3 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie** 

### 4 **McCrudden, Air Conditioning Contractors of** 

### 5 **America. It's a really simple question. The** 

### 6 **version I have here has several of the rows** 

### 7 **shaded in green. Is there a purpose?** 

### 8 **MS. COUGHLIN: Oh, yes. The idea** 

### 9 **was to focus on some numbers and not get** 

### 10 **caught up in all of the numbers, but since it** 

### 11 **is not actually showing up on the screen, I** 

### 12 **decided not to do that. So it's just to make** 

### 13 **it easier, slightly easier, to read the table.** 

### 14 **That's all.** 

### 15 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay.** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: So let's see. Move** 

### 17 **on I think. Okay. This is something that has** 

### 18 **come up in discussion. And this is where we** 

### 19 **are now soliciting comment on end use** 

### 20 **attributes other than price.** 

### 21 **So if there are features that are** 

### 22 **related to the design options that are used in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213**  **1 the more efficient equipment that you think**  

### 2 **are going to affect the customers' utility** 

### 3 **and, therefore, will affect the decision to** 

### 4 **purchase that equipment, then we would very** 

### 5 **much like to hear about that because we can** 

### 6 **incorporate that into the modeling if we have** 

### 7 **a quantitative picture of how these different** 

### 8 **effects would take place.** 

### 9 **So, for example, you would need to** 

### 10 **identify the sector, the commercial sector** 

### 11 **that is affected, and the type of equipment** 

### 12 **that is affected and some level of, even if** 

### 13 **it's just a guess, the sensitivity. Is this** 

### 14 **going to be 50 percent of your buyers or 5** 

### 15 **percent of your buyers? So that information** 

### 16 **would be very useful.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 18 **MR. COUSINS: Okay. I'm sorry. I** 

### 19 **just thought of this. I know I may be** 

### 20 **pounding on the same thing over and over** 

### 21 **again.** 

### 22 **The members of the United Nations**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214**  **1 Consumer Goods Forum -- and I think some of**  

### 2 **you in this room are members of that forum --** 

### 3 **is over 400 consumer goods companies. They** 

### 4 **have pledged to begin phasing out HFCs and** 

### 5 **their operations and the point of purchase** 

### 6 **refrigerating operations beginning year after** 

### 7 **next, I believe it is. So when 2017 rolls** 

### 8 **around, a majority of commercial** 

### 9 **refrigeration, at least according to the** 

### 10 **commitments of most consumer goods companies** 

### 11 **in this country, is to be out of the** 

### 12 **refrigerants that we're using now.** 

### 13 **Now, getting back to what you are** 

### 14 **saying, in what sectors and what percentages,** 

### 15 **I guess that information might be hard to pull** 

### 16 **together, but I think a lot of these companies** 

### 17 **are on their way now and making the** 

### 18 **transition. So I know we haven't considered** 

### 19 **that, but it might be worth looking into.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 21 **Yes, Jon?** 

### 22 **MR. McHUGH: Jon McHugh. Has**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215**  **1 there been any consideration, kind of from a**  

### 2 **high level, of an adjustment factor by** 

### 3 **refrigerant type? So you have, you know,** 

### 4 **these are the numbers. And then depending on** 

### 5 **the particular refrigerant you are using,** 

### 6 **there would be some kind of adjustment table?** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: No.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments** 

### 9 **here? You can see the comment box. Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from** 

### 11 **DOE, however, I did earlier in the meeting ask** 

### 12 **Steve Cousins for any test data that is** 

### 13 **relevant to this gas issue so that the** 

### 14 **Department could consider the different** 

### 15 **efficiency levels that would be needed to meet** 

### 16 **different greenhouse gas, HFCs, and all of** 

### 17 **that.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 19 **MR. COUSINS: Yes. That was a** 

### 20 **very good request and one that I am certainly** 

### 21 **going to follow up on. I guess the one caveat** 

### 22 **that I will put out there is that, once again,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216**  **1 I'll say we are myopic in that we just deal**  

### 2 **with self-contained vertical transparent door,** 

### 3 **medium-temperature applications. So the data** 

### 4 **I give will be, you know, kind of narrow to** 

### 5 **that equipment sector.** 

### 6 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I will also add** 

### 7 **that the Department in its Emerging** 

### 8 **Technologies Program within the Building** 

### 9 **Technologies Office has a couple of projects** 

### 10 **active in the working fluids area. And so I** 

### 11 **just want to say we're not ignoring this issue** 

### 12 **at all, but the fact is when we did this** 

### 13 **analysis, we had no units to purchase and test** 

### 14 **with the other refrigerants at the time.** 

### 15 **So we certainly will take the** 

### 16 **data, particularly the test data that shows** 

### 17 **the difference in performance based on the** 

### 18 **refrigerant used.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?** 

### 20 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.** 

### 21 **Have you put end-of-life calculations into** 

### 22 **these completely?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217**  **1 In Europe right now, all units**  

### 2 **when they're self-contained equipment when** 

### 3 **they're done have a requirement for full** 

### 4 **recycling and disposal, of which the** 

### 5 **manufacturer has to charge that up front and** 

### 6 **then is required to take the unit back and** 

### 7 **dispose of it correctly, which is an incurred** 

### 8 **cost, which we cannot always anticipate the** 

### 9 **future cost values of those things.** 

### 10 **And those can be quite** 

### 11 **substantial, number one, from removing the** 

### 12 **refrigerants in the unit and disposing of them** 

### 13 **correctly by very high-temperature destruction** 

### 14 **but also by grinding down the insulation foam,** 

### 15 **removing the blowing agents from that. And it** 

### 16 **is a very, very big concern in the industry,** 

### 17 **the end-of-life values and the end-of-life** 

### 18 **cost involvement, of equipment.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments** 

### 20 **here? Nothing additional?** 

### 21 **(No response.)** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So now we**  

### 2 **are going to move on to the shipments analysis** 

### 3 **and then national impacts analysis. So the** 

### 4 **shipments analysis is an input to the national** 

### 5 **impact analysis. And then the national impact** 

### 6 **analysis, as the name suggests, is taking the** 

### 7 **high-level view of the effect of the policy** 

### 8 **decision on a variety of economic and** 

### 9 **environmental metrics.** 

### 10 **So for the shipments analysis,** 

### 11 **just a background comment, we have a number of** 

### 12 **quite sophisticated shipments models that we** 

### 13 **can use. And so in any given rulemaking,** 

### 14 **we're always data-limited. And the more data** 

### 15 **that we get, the more we can put various types** 

### 16 **of interaction and other things into the** 

### 17 **shipments analysis.** 

### 18 **So the purpose of the shipments** 

### 19 **analysis is simply to develop a model of the** 

### 20 **new units coming into the stock over the** 

### 21 **period of time, over the analysis period,** 

### 22 **which in this case is 30 years, which is about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219**  **1 2 to 3 lifetimes of the equipment. So we**  

### 2 **begin with an estimate of what the stock would** 

### 3 **look like in the base case, in the absence of** 

### 4 **a standard. And then we look at the influence** 

### 5 **of the standard on that stock. And our** 

### 6 **primary concern again is the distribution of** 

### 7 **equipment by efficiency.** 

### 8 **The methodology here is a** 

### 9 **relatively simply methodology, again** 

### 10 **constrained by the lack of data. So this set** 

### 11 **of bullet points is the list of data sources** 

### 12 **that the Department had access to for this** 

### 13 **analysis. It includes only one year of** 

### 14 **shipments data submitted by AHRI, which gives** 

### 15 **us a breakdown of the market by equipment** 

### 16 **class. And then there are several reports,** 

### 17 **which have been submitted, which allow us to** 

### 18 **look at the distribution of the shipments in** 

### 19 **some cases by market sector, in some cases by** 

### 20 **product, again by different sub-product** 

### 21 **classes. And these contain some time series**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220**  **1 data. So we get a sense of the shipments over**  

### 2 **time.** 

### 3 **But to do the full-on analysis of** 

### 4 **shipments over the period of time that we're** 

### 5 **interested in, to include a price elasticity,** 

### 6 **which is what a lot of people are interested** 

### 7 **in, we need both distribution by efficiency** 

### 8 **and time series, which we don't have.** 

### 9 **So the issues, for example, that** 

### 10 **were raised that talk about product switching,** 

### 11 **customers moving from closed to open cases due** 

### 12 **to a price increase, that is something that in** 

### 13 **a modeling sense is not difficult to put into** 

### 14 **the model. And that can be accounted for, but** 

### 15 **in order to understand what that price** 

### 16 **elasticity ought to be, again, we need a lot** 

### 17 **of clearly stated information about equipment,** 

### 18 **you know, what would be the equipment classes,** 

### 19 **what would be the customer sectors, what would** 

### 20 **be the rates of switching, and what is the** 

### 21 **level of price sensitivity. But if you can**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 221**  **1 supply that information, then we can**  

### 2 **incorporate that into the models.** 

### 3 **So for the current analysis, the** 

### 4 **models are essentially driven by floor space** 

### 5 **projections that we get from the annual energy** 

### 6 **outlook, which gives a prediction of the** 

### 7 **build-out of commercial floor space by type of** 

### 8 **business. And then we use various sorts of** 

### 9 **data to understand, you know, what is the** 

### 10 **correlation between a certain quantity of** 

### 11 **floor space, say, at a restaurant and the** 

### 12 **number of cases that they have in that** 

### 13 **restaurant.** 

### 14 **Once you have that in a lifetime,** 

### 15 **you can build a simple shipments model that** 

### 16 **just projects forward the turnover of the** 

### 17 **stock.** 

### 18 **And then we used the simplest** 

### 19 **possible replacement algorithm when you go** 

### 20 **from the baseline to the next standard level,** 

### 21 **where everyone who was below the standard** 

### 22 **level, you just take their stock out and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 222**  **1 replace it with the cheapest thing that is**  

### 2 **available. And that is called the rollup. So** 

### 3 **you essentially take all of the equipment that** 

### 4 **is below the standard and shift it into the** 

### 5 **lowest bin under the standard.** 

### 6 **So once you have this, you can** 

### 7 **develop this stock model that tells you the** 

### 8 **operating stock and its efficiency. And then** 

### 9 **you can from that determine how much it costs** 

### 10 **to purchase that stock and what is the energy** 

### 11 **consumption of that stock.** 

### 12 **So, again, this is a big table.** 

### 13 **There are all the equipment classes. And** 

### 14 **these are just the forecasts of the shipments.** 

### 15 **Now, I'll mention that there is a** 

### 16 **normalization that goes on here. So in the** 

### 17 **engineering table, the rep units all have** 

### 18 **different sizes and display areas, that sort** 

### 19 **of thing.** 

### 20 **So to convert to a unit that can** 

### 21 **be compared across classes, the Department** 

### 22 **uses linear feet. So these linear feet are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 223**  **1 essentially based on the average size of a**  

### 2 **unit and the number of units sold. So** 

### 3 **relatively you're getting a sense of the sort** 

### 4 **of overall cooling capacity associated with** 

### 5 **the equipment classes at different points in** 

### 6 **time.** 

### 7 **And then the projections going** 

### 8 **forward just basically show what is very** 

### 9 **strongly correlated with the AEO projections** 

### 10 **of commercial floor space and commercial** 

### 11 **activity.** 

### 12 **MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from** 

### 13 **DOE. So we have been talking a lot about the** 

### 14 **product switching and the potential product** 

### 15 **switching. I guess a question to the** 

### 16 **manufacturers, when the standard came into** 

### 17 **effect in the first round of standards, did** 

### 18 **anyone see any of this activity at all based** 

### 19 **on what happened to the standards or was it** 

### 20 **that the standards that came into effect** 

### 21 **didn't impact any of this product switching** 

### 22 **that we have identified here today as a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 224**  **1 potential issue with the proposed standards**  

### 2 **that we have here today?** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?** 

### 4 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon. The** 

### 5 **previous standards really did not require our** 

### 6 **company to make major changes in design,** 

### 7 **thereby changing the cost structure. We had** 

### 8 **already been through years with California** 

### 9 **driving these same numbers. So the 2005 EPACT** 

### 10 **rules literally copied the California rules,** 

### 11 **which were already in place. So we did not** 

### 12 **see that change because it had already been** 

### 13 **done. Seventeen states were already involved** 

### 14 **in the process. So you have no correlation** 

### 15 **because you had three years working under what** 

### 16 **was the existing standard for California and** 

### 17 **other states. So I don't know how to answer** 

### 18 **that question beyond the fact that they really** 

### 19 **didn't because it was already there.** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So, then,** 

### 21 **how about when California put their -- I mean,** 

### 22 **going back to the original change in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 225**  **1 market dynamic, is there any history there**  

### 2 **that you can point to that can say, "Look, if** 

### 3 **you do this, the product class X, we saw a** 

### 4 **market shift based on what happened with the** 

### 5 **standard"? I mean, it would be hard for me to** 

### 6 **believe that the standard was so equitably set** 

### 7 **that there was nothing discernible from it.** 

### 8 **MR. HON: The standards were** 

### 9 **gradual in their nature, 2001, 2004, 2006,** 

### 10 **2007. There was a continual step-down in the** 

### 11 **standard. Did any of them make huge impacts** 

### 12 **into the numbers as far as sales go? No** 

### 13 **because the transitional shifts necessary were** 

### 14 **not major cost increasers. They were doable** 

### 15 **with minimal total cost change.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 17 **MR. COUSINS: Yes. Steve Cousins.** 

### 18 **I don't have an answer to your question with** 

### 19 **regard to commercial refrigeration in general.** 

### 20 **I know with regard to California, their** 

### 21 **appliance efficiency regulations did impact** 

### 22 **how we did business with them.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 226**  **1 I think back in I think 2002, when**  

### 2 **they first rolled out --** 

### 3 **MR. HON: Well, '1 and '2.** 

### 4 **MR. COUSINS: Yes, but it was** 

### 5 **2002. Because of thresholds that were** 

### 6 **difficult to achieve, we didn't place shelf** 

### 7 **style vending machines in California. We were** 

### 8 **placing them in a number of other states, not** 

### 9 **in California, I think until 2005 or 2006.** 

### 10 **I know it is not really an answer** 

### 11 **to your question, but the point I am making is** 

### 12 **that the thresholds did impact how we** 

### 13 **conducted business. And it wasn't related to** 

### 14 **cost. It was really related to technology.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert?** 

### 16 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,** 

### 17 **Danfoss. John, I don't have an answer to your** 

### 18 **question, but I could suggest two or three** 

### 19 **things to consider. And I'm looking forward** 

### 20 **in my mind to 2017, at which time there could** 

### 21 **be 3, let's say, regulatory changes occurring** 

### 22 **fairly simultaneously. These standards, if I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 227**  **1 understood your chart correctly, could raise**  

### 2 **costs 10 to 20 percent more or less. So** 

### 3 **that's one factor. The end-of-life cost if I** 

### 4 **dispose of my old equipment and buy new now,** 

### 5 **I've got to do something with that old** 

### 6 **equipment that is going to cost me money and** 

### 7 **then refrigerant change. And I've got to** 

### 8 **manage refrigerants and get out of HFCs. And** 

### 9 **that can add cost.** 

### 10 **How to quantify that I don't know,** 

### 11 **but I think the consideration is that many** 

### 12 **folks, especially mom and pops and single** 

### 13 **restaurants, will say, well, small** 

### 14 **supermarkets, "I am going to refurbish my old** 

### 15 **equipment and extend the life of it," instead** 

### 16 **of upgrading to this new, efficient equipment.** 

### 17 **So there's a risk there that there** 

### 18 **could be some unintended consequences that** 

### 19 **perpetuate an old inefficient equipment by the** 

### 20 **confluence of these three trends.** 

### 21 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. I think** 

### 22 **that one is a little --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 228**  **1 MR. WILKINS: And I don't know how**  

### 2 **to analyze it, but --** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, we do that** 

### 4 **in our rulemakings. So I think that one is** 

### 5 **easier. I guess I am really trying to zero in** 

### 6 **on this switching phenomenon that has been put** 

### 7 **out on the table this morning that this will** 

### 8 **-- you know, it was asserted that if we put,** 

### 9 **for example, these triple-glazed doors, they** 

### 10 **will move to the open cases.** 

### 11 **And I guess, you know, I** 

### 12 **understand the logic there. It makes perfect** 

### 13 **sense from "I can't see the food anymore. So** 

### 14 **I won't have the door."** 

### 15 **I guess I am just trying to get** 

### 16 **any empirical data that actually shows that** 

### 17 **these examples happened. If we are making the** 

### 18 **one product class either more expensive or the** 

### 19 **utility change such that they will switch it** 

### 20 **to another product class, I am really focused** 

### 21 **on that issue, as opposed to just the cost in** 

### 22 **general. I understand that. That one I get.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 229**  **1 But, you know, we brought up today**  

### 2 **and we have discussed a lot about the** 

### 3 **unintended consequences of moving from closed** 

### 4 **to open. And the Department is really** 

### 5 **concerned about that.** 

### 6 **So I guess we are really asking** 

### 7 **for some more empirical data to help us** 

### 8 **untangle that problem.** 

### 9 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon.** 

### 10 **Another thing that went on in the same period** 

### 11 **of time you had asked earlier as far as change** 

### 12 **of product -- in a majority of the product** 

### 13 **that we sell, we had to increase cost in** 

### 14 **certain areas, which drove the price up. But** 

### 15 **in the same time window, there were rebates** 

### 16 **galore.** 

### 17 **So, effectively, all of our price** 

### 18 **increases were absorbed in utilities in the** 

### 19 **West Coast and East Coast with a lot of** 

### 20 **rebates and effectively made it very cost** 

### 21 **effective for purchasers to get new units.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 230**  **1 Those rebate dollars are difficult**  

### 2 **to find these days. So they're not going to** 

### 3 **be nearly as easy to come up with, which makes** 

### 4 **the purchase price of the unit more noticeable** 

### 5 **difference.** 

### 6 **Now, for us, we didn't have to** 

### 7 **make major, major changes that drove costs up** 

### 8 **in the previous round of rulemaking. There** 

### 9 **were some incremental costs but not drastic,** 

### 10 **not near the level of what we're talking here,** 

### 11 **15-20 percent increase in costs. And that's a** 

### 12 **window that I'm not sure has ever been pushed** 

### 13 **in our market until now. And we don't know** 

### 14 **the ramifications, what that means, because it** 

### 15 **could push a lot of people there. It could** 

### 16 **push very few there.** 

### 17 **The major players who really know** 

### 18 **how energy efficiency works, the Consumer** 

### 19 **Goods Forum people, they're going to absorb** 

### 20 **the cost. The independents, who are not** 

### 21 **nearly so technically savvy, may not choose to** 

### 22 **do so.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 231**  **1 MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins**  

### 2 **again. And in this sector and in the** 

### 3 **supermarket area, there is a lively industry** 

### 4 **in rebuilding and refurbishing and upgrading** 

### 5 **cases. It is not like we are saying this** 

### 6 **would start some new behavior. The** 

### 7 **infrastructure part is already there. And** 

### 8 **combining a 15 to 20 percent cost increase and** 

### 9 **some of these other factors simultaneously** 

### 10 **could spur that sector. And, instead of** 

### 11 **getting this TSL 4 level, you are perpetuating** 

### 12 **the life of something that is far below --** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So, as I** 

### 14 **have mentioned, that is an effect that we** 

### 15 **model in some products when we have the data** 

### 16 **that we need to understand that sensitivity.** 

### 17 **So, you know, you have got to look at the** 

### 18 **relative cost of refurbishment versus the cost** 

### 19 **of a new product, possible shorter lifetime** 

### 20 **associated with, you know, the refurbished** 

### 21 **units or higher maintenance. So, actually,** 

### 22 **again, if the data is available, then these**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 232**  **1 things can be taken into account. And it**  

### 2 **certainly will go into the estimate of energy** 

### 3 **savings associated with the standard.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey?** 

### 5 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey Sachs,** 

### 6 **ACEEE. Katie, going back to slide 69, I think** 

### 7 **I have missed something, the slide that is up** 

### 8 **there now.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: The shipments forecast** 

### 11 **was based on one year of AHRI data?** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: No, no, no. The** 

### 13 **driver on shipments is commercial floor space.** 

### 14 **So you build up a picture of commercial floor** 

### 15 **space additions. And then you have the sort** 

### 16 **of standing -- so the standing stock at the** 

### 17 **first year of the analysis period has an age** 

### 18 **distribution. That gets turned over. And** 

### 19 **then you get new floor space added to the** 

### 20 **population. So those are the two drivers on** 

### 21 **the shipment.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 233**  **1 MR. SACHS: So where do you get**  

### 2 **the standing stock?** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: That comes out of** 

### 4 **our model; we essentially start our shipments** 

### 5 **model back in 1950 or something to get an** 

### 6 **estimate of the day's standing stock. And we** 

### 7 **use the data that we get to validate that** 

### 8 **model.** 

### 9 **MR. SACHS: I'm sorry. The data** 

### 10 **from whom? Is this census-driven or --** 

### 11 **MS. COUGHLIN: AHRI gave us market** 

### 12 **share data by equipment class. Some of the** 

### 13 **reports that are cited gave us market share by** 

### 14 **business type. And some give us a time** 

### 15 **history of shipments that we can look to see** 

### 16 **how well that correlates with the time history** 

### 17 **of our model-predicted growth.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: Thank you. That is** 

### 19 **helpful. The only precautionary note, it was** 

### 20 **beaten into me during the ASRAC working group** 

### 21 **last summer that a large fraction of the** 

### 22 **commercial refrigeration industry is not AHRI-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 234**  **1 certified or affiliated. So I don't know how**  

### 2 **that distributes across product classes within** 

### 3 **this rulemaking, but there is the potential** 

### 4 **for substantial bias. And it should be** 

### 5 **checked for.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. So in some** 

### 7 **cases, we had from other reports kind of more** 

### 8 **aggregated product class distributions. And** 

### 9 **those are used to try to -- DOE is aware of** 

### 10 **the problems with the AHRI data. So we did** 

### 11 **try to correct for that.** 

### 12 **But, again, as was noted before,** 

### 13 **we never turn down more data. So any more** 

### 14 **information we can have would be very useful.** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again.** 

### 16 **And just sort of as a follow-up, I am to** 

### 17 **gather, then, that the first digit in your** 

### 18 **four significant digits is likely to be** 

### 19 **correct.** 

### 20 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Tim?** 

### 22 **MR. T. ANDERSON: Going back to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 235**  **1 John's question, we have not seen a shift in**  

### 2 **the mix of equipment classes in the last** 

### 3 **several years due to the previous rule, the** 

### 4 **2012 rule. We have seen a shift in two of the** 

### 5 **equipment classes due to purely market forces** 

### 6 **based on -- and we sell primarily to --** 

### 7 **supermarkets are our largest customer.** 

### 8 **We have seen a shift from the** 

### 9 **VOP.RCM class into the VCT.RCM class,** 

### 10 **primarily in dairy/deli lineups, you know.** 

### 11 **You know, those are very long lineups that you** 

### 12 **see in every supermarket.** 

### 13 **So the assumption on the screen** 

### 14 **that those two would stay fixed relative to** 

### 15 **each other in my mind is flawed. Taking any** 

### 16 **rulemaking out of the picture, the percentage** 

### 17 **of cases shift in VCT.RCM would increase while** 

### 18 **VOP.RCM would probably stay fixed or decrease** 

### 19 **over time. That is ignoring the proposed** 

### 20 **rulemaking that is on the table.** 

### 21 **The proposed rulemaking on the** 

### 22 **table could completely change the dynamic**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 236**  **1 which I have just mentioned. It could**  

### 2 **actually reverse that.** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So you are going** 

### 4 **from open to closed right now?** 

### 5 **MR. T. ANDERSON: Right.** 

### 6 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. T. ANDERSON: And I think it** 

### 8 **would go the other way based on a couple of** 

### 9 **factors: the one we talked about in terms of** 

### 10 **the merchandisers being opposed to design** 

### 11 **options that they would be forced into using** 

### 12 **or the extreme case of equipment not even** 

### 13 **being available because the standard level** 

### 14 **can't even be met. It's really that** 

### 15 **restrictive that if there is no equipment on** 

### 16 **the market, they can't buy it. And,** 

### 17 **therefore, you know, there won't be any** 

### 18 **shipments.** 

### 19 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So the market** 

### 20 **force you talk about, is that ENERGY STAR or** 

### 21 **is that just they want to save energy because** 

### 22 **--**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 237**  **1 MR. T. ANDERSON: It is purely**  

### 2 **just energy savings.** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. T. ANDERSON: The supermarket** 

### 5 **industry has always been -- you know, their** 

### 6 **margins are so razor thin they have always** 

### 7 **been trying to lower their operating costs.** 

### 8 **And so Hussmann as a company has always been** 

### 9 **driving energy efficiency. Before California** 

### 10 **or the DOE or anybody ever came into the** 

### 11 **picture, that has been our goal.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 13 **MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Jeff? Go** 

### 15 **ahead.** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I** 

### 17 **would certainly expect in the Southeast and** 

### 18 **other areas blessed with ample humidity that** 

### 19 **there is a secondary effect in terms of the** 

### 20 **defrost cycles and the indirect energy of** 

### 21 **having to control humidity through other low** 

### 22 **levels to prevent excessive icing and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 238**  **1 condensate within the unit. So it's a**  

### 2 **secondary thing that's energy-related, but I'm** 

### 3 **very excited to hear that there is a shift** 

### 4 **towards closed in your market.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff?** 

### 6 **MR. BAUMAN: Just to I guess ask** 

### 7 **or recommend that whether DOE has contacted** 

### 8 **associations like the National Restaurant** 

### 9 **Association, National Supermarket Association,** 

### 10 **convenience stores, a lot of association** 

### 11 **groups that I think would be more helpful than** 

### 12 **a lot of people sitting around this table to** 

### 13 **be able -- they might not be considered as** 

### 14 **specific stakeholders, but obviously the types** 

### 15 **of concerns we're showing would have an effect** 

### 16 **on them that I don't think may have been** 

### 17 **predicted by them. And I would just encourage** 

### 18 **DOE to specifically contact some of those** 

### 19 **groups for those numbers. And I believe** 

### 20 **ENERGY STAR also should have shipment data** 

### 21 **that I would think if you ask nicely, they** 

### 22 **would share with you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 239**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.**  

### 2 **Charlie?** 

### 3 **MR. HON: Charlie Hon. I'm** 

### 4 **sitting here looking at some of this data that** 

### 5 **I have a pretty good feel for. And some of** 

### 6 **those numbers I would say are one-third to** 

### 7 **one-fourth of what the numbers would actually** 

### 8 **be in today's market, not projecting to 2017.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: So the bottom line** 

### 10 **here, this number is off, the total? Again,** 

### 11 **this is converted to linear feet.** 

### 12 **MR. HON: Yes. That's why I'm** 

### 13 **saying it.** 

### 14 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So is it the** 

### 15 **total that's off or some of the equipment** 

### 16 **classes that are --** 

### 17 **MR. HON: Further up in the** 

### 18 **equipment classes, --** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. HON: -- some of those numbers** 

### 21 **may be only 25 to 30 percent of what is** 

### 22 **actually going out today.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 240**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: So it is the**  

### 2 **distribution across equipment classes that is** 

### 3 **inaccurate or is it the total number that is** 

### 4 **inaccurate?** 

### 5 **MR. COUSINS: Well, to answer that** 

### 6 **question, it depends on exactly what it is** 

### 7 **we're looking at. Does this table represent** 

### 8 **total forecasted shipments or incremental** 

### 9 **shipments from one year to the next?** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: Shipments are the** 

### 11 **new equipment added to the stock from one year** 

### 12 **to the next. That's what we define as** 

### 13 **shipments.** 

### 14 **MR. COUSINS: Okay. So --** 

### 15 **MR. HON: Does that include** 

### 16 **replacements?** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: So is the total** 

### 19 **close to being right?** 

### 20 **MR. COUSINS: I would say my** 

### 21 **company alone purchases more than that number,** 

### 22 **probably 15-20 percent more than that number**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 241**  **1 represents for that class of equipment, --**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. COUSINS: -- just my company.** 

### 4 **And I know our competition purchases as much.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: And can you cull** 

### 6 **out among these classes which ones are so way** 

### 7 **off the mark?** 

### 8 **MR. COUSINS: Well, for example,** 

### 9 **the vertical self-contained medium** 

### 10 **refrigeration. If you take what we purchase** 

### 11 **--** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: Closed transparent** 

### 13 **--** 

### 14 **MR. COUSINS: You know, VCT SOC.** 

### 15 **Let's see. Where are we? M.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: M.** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. COUSINS: I would say in** 

### 19 **linear feet, we are probably purchasing** 

### 20 **180,000, something like that.** 

### 21 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Katie, is that --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 242**  **1 MR. COUSINS: We're just one**  

### 2 **customer.** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: And that's** 

### 4 **domestic, though? You're not --** 

### 5 **MR. COUSINS: Yes, it's just** 

### 6 **domestic. I mean, for international, you can** 

### 7 **multiply that by eight or ten or so.** 

### 8 **MR. WILKINS: This is Robert** 

### 9 **Wilkins. What is the primary source of this** 

### 10 **data? I know it has been extrapolated to get** 

### 11 **to '17. But is that --** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: This is essentially** 

### 13 **what DOE had access to for this analysis. So,** 

### 14 **again, there is the --** 

### 15 **MR. WILKINS: Because in this** 

### 16 **sector, my hypothesis is, in this sector,** 

### 17 **there are one or two major manufacturers that** 

### 18 **are not members of AHRI.** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. Well --** 

### 20 **MR. WILKINS: And if you have** 

### 21 **calculated that into the -- if you haven't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 243**  **1 already, you should calculate that into this**  

### 2 **summary.** 

### 3 **MS. COUGHLIN: Well, again, the** 

### 4 **Department can only work with the data. So** 

### 5 **several requests for data have gone out. And** 

### 6 **this is the data that we received. So if we** 

### 7 **can get more data, we, of course, will refine** 

### 8 **the model --** 

### 9 **MR. WILKINS: So I'm just hinting** 

### 10 **one place where you might look for that data.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Robert.** 

### 12 **MR. WILKINS: That's all.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. WILKINS: I can be more** 

### 15 **specific off the record if you'd like.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, if you can be** 

### 17 **more specific? And then --** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: More specific on** 

### 19 **the record.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: -- send in your** 

### 21 **comment. Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 244**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: On the record is**  

### 2 **preferred, definitely.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Do you want** 

### 4 **to proceed to the next slide?** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So in terms** 

### 6 **of the shipments forecasts, essentially, the** 

### 7 **first bullet point just speaks to the fact** 

### 8 **that the economic lifetime is not the same as** 

### 9 **the engineering lifetime. So, essentially,** 

### 10 **the shorter lifetime reflects the fact that** 

### 11 **the decision to replace the equipment has** 

### 12 **something to do with something other than it** 

### 13 **breaks. Remodeling is the primary factor.** 

### 14 **And in this particular version of** 

### 15 **the model, there is no elasticity associated** 

### 16 **with the purchase decision. So the assumption** 

### 17 **is that if a store decides to remodel and is** 

### 18 **purchasing new equipment, they will go ahead** 

### 19 **and do that anyway, even if the equipment is** 

### 20 **somewhat more expensive.** 

### 21 **DOE understands that for smaller** 

### 22 **establishments, particularly related to food**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 245**  **1 service, that there may be other factors**  

### 2 **driving these purchase decisions.** 

### 3 **And, again, the issue here is not** 

### 4 **methodology. We know how to model these** 

### 5 **decisions. We just need to have the inputs** 

### 6 **that allow us to represent those decisions** 

### 7 **more accurately.** 

### 8 **And, again, I'll emphasize that** 

### 9 **understanding both the equipment classes that** 

### 10 **are affected and the customer sectors that are** 

### 11 **affected are both important, even if it's** 

### 12 **qualitative, rather than quantitative,** 

### 13 **information.** 

### 14 **So we'll move on to the national** 

### 15 **impacts analysis. So the national --** 

### 16 **MR. SACHS: Katie, this is Harvey** 

### 17 **again. I guess the take-home that I'm getting** 

### 18 **from the last half-hour of discussions is** 

### 19 **that, at the margin, we're overanalyzing some** 

### 20 **things and underanalyzing the behavior of** 

### 21 **market actors. We put something in the** 

### 22 **Federal Register and expect people to come to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 246**  **1 us with data, instead of going to their**  

### 2 **meetings and working with their trade** 

### 3 **associations, the customers for commercial** 

### 4 **equipment, and finding out how they act with** 

### 5 **behavioral studies, instead of engineering** 

### 6 **analyses.** 

### 7 **You keep telling us that the big** 

### 8 **gaps are in the information about what the** 

### 9 **customers do, what they plan to do, but that's** 

### 10 **not where our emphasis has traditionally been.** 

### 11 **And, of course, commercial equipment** 

### 12 **rulemakings -- and you're being very helpful** 

### 13 **in explaining to us the resulting gaps in the** 

### 14 **ability to make wise decisions.** 

### 15 **Thank you.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So, moving** 

### 18 **on to the national impact analysis, so, again,** 

### 19 **model-wise, the heavy lifting is done in the** 

### 20 **shipments. And then the national impacts** 

### 21 **analysis simply looks at the stock and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 247**  **1 associates energy consumption and first cost**  

### 2 **numbers with those stock models.** 

### 3 **And then, again, the idea is to** 

### 4 **take the difference between the base case and** 

### 5 **the standards under consideration and look at** 

### 6 **the energy savings, cost savings, and various** 

### 7 **other metrics.** 

### 8 **So the two that I will present** 

### 9 **next are the national energy savings, which is** 

### 10 **converted to quads, quadrillion Btu. This is** 

### 11 **for electricity-using appliances. This is the** 

### 12 **energy that goes into the power plant** 

### 13 **essentially. And then the other is the net** 

### 14 **present value of the balance between the** 

### 15 **increased expenditures for the equipment and** 

### 16 **the savings and operating costs.** 

### 17 **So positive NPV means that the** 

### 18 **operating cost savings are larger than the** 

### 19 **increased equipment cost expenditures.** 

### 20 **So in each of the years of the** 

### 21 **analysis period, we calculate the total energy** 

### 22 **consumption and the total consumer**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 248**  **1 expenditures, and we include all the operation**  

### 2 **maintenance costs. The rest of it, we add in** 

### 3 **the price trends associated with electricity.** 

### 4 **In this case, this is where we bring in a** 

### 5 **price trend associated with the first cost of** 

### 6 **the equipment that represents the effect of** 

### 7 **the fact that when the equipment has been on** 

### 8 **the market for five, ten years, it may be** 

### 9 **cheaper to manufacture than when it's only** 

### 10 **been on the market for one year.** 

### 11 **And then in this analysis, the** 

### 12 **costs are discounted, but the discount rates** 

### 13 **are no longer business discount rates** 

### 14 **associated with a particular customer sector.** 

### 15 **They are these societal discount rates that** 

### 16 **are mandated by OMB to be -- we do a three** 

### 17 **percent discount rate analysis and a seven** 

### 18 **percent discount rate analysis.** 

### 19 **MR. WILKINS: One question.** 

### 20 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes?** 

### 21 **MR. WILKINS: This is the** 

### 22 **question. Is there a little bit of a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 249**  **1 disconnect here? Because the national energy**  

### 2 **savings, I expect, in your analysis is the** 

### 3 **expected value, is the mean --** 

### 4 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.** 

### 5 **MR. WILKINS: -- of the** 

### 6 **distribution. But if the DOE rule has to do** 

### 7 **-- back to the question from John, if the DOE** 

### 8 **rule has to be that the manufacturers on any** 

### 9 **individual unit, it's not the mean, but it's** 

### 10 **the mean plus maybe three standard deviations** 

### 11 **because I've got to make mine three standard** 

### 12 **deviations better in order to ensure that I** 

### 13 **don't get caught in the validation process.** 

### 14 **So you've got two different** 

### 15 **numbers here. One is the expected value and** 

### 16 **the other, but the true expected value has to** 

### 17 **be -- there's a shift here because the** 

### 18 **manufacturers can't produce their product to** 

### 19 **the expected value. They have to go add two** 

### 20 **or three or four standard deviations on top of** 

### 21 **that and energy efficiency.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 250**  **1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And,**  

### 2 **Robert, with --** 

### 3 **MR. WILKINS: Am I off base?** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: I think I understand** 

### 5 **your point. It happens that five or six** 

### 6 **people in this room spent all summer plus** 

### 7 **wrestling --** 

### 8 **MR. WILKINS: Dealing with that.** 

### 9 **Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: -- wrestling with that** 

### 11 **grizzly bear. And we've all got scars.** 

### 12 **MR. WILKINS: Okay. Maybe I'm** 

### 13 **saying there's just more for you to take** 

### 14 **credit for than you might be taking credit** 

### 15 **for.** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. No. This is** 

### 17 **really sort of to have a well-defined process.** 

### 18 **We use the test procedure in understanding** 

### 19 **what the predicted efficiency or energy** 

### 20 **consumption should be. And then the** 

### 21 **certification rulemaking deals with the issues** 

### 22 **of sampling and those sorts of things.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 251**  **1 So yes, there may be some**  

### 2 **imprecision in this relative to the real** 

### 3 **world. Everybody understands that -- I mean,** 

### 4 **predicting the future is always imprecise. So** 

### 5 **these are just intended to be a well-defined** 

### 6 **analysis metric so that you can have something** 

### 7 **to compare it with.** 

### 8 **So one of the reasons why we** 

### 9 **delayed the discussion of how the TSLs were** 

### 10 **put together to this point is that you** 

### 11 **actually put together the trial standard** 

### 12 **levels based on the output of the national** 

### 13 **impacts analysis. And this is a process that** 

### 14 **DOE has developed over the years.** 

### 15 **So the trial standard levels, as I** 

### 16 **mentioned earlier, are a choice of a** 

### 17 **particular efficiency level for each equipment** 

### 18 **class. And they are grouped into TSLs. And** 

### 19 **DOE tries to create definitions of TSLs that** 

### 20 **kind of cut across all the differences in** 

### 21 **equipment type. So it's easiest to understand** 

### 22 **if you start at the top and work down.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 252**  **1 So in this particular rulemaking,**  

### 2 **we've got five TSLs. TSL 5 is the highest.** 

### 3 **This is just chosen as the maximum** 

### 4 **technologically feasible level in each** 

### 5 **equipment class.** 

### 6 **Moving to TSL 4, this was chosen** 

### 7 **as the efficiency level in each equipment** 

### 8 **class that has the maximum energy savings** 

### 9 **subject to the constraint that the NPV be** 

### 10 **positive. So there's no economic burden.** 

### 11 **There may be minimal economic benefit. And** 

### 12 **then you take that energy savings. That's TSL** 

### 13 **4.** 

### 14 **TSL 3 is chosen as the efficiency** 

### 15 **level in each class that has the maximum NPV,** 

### 16 **which can in some cases line up with maximum** 

### 17 **LCC but in this case doesn't.** 

### 18 **And TSL 2 and TSL 1 are chosen to** 

### 19 **bridge the gap between the top three and the** 

### 20 **baseline. And so they are composed of** 

### 21 **intermediate levels so that you can see how**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 253**  **1 the energy savings progress as you go along in**  

### 2 **more detail.** 

### 3 **So, again, I believe it's appendix** 

### 4 **10C. You can actually look at each TSL and** 

### 5 **find out which levels were chosen for each** 

### 6 **equipment class for each TSL.** 

### 7 **This is just an example. To make** 

### 8 **that table a little smaller, we cut out a** 

### 9 **bunch of TSLs. And we cut out a bunch of** 

### 10 **equipment classes just to identify. So what** 

### 11 **we have here is the equipment class, just** 

### 12 **randomly chosen equipment classes, and then** 

### 13 **the TSL 3, 4, and 5. And then we're using the** 

### 14 **notation here. Rather than the efficiency** 

### 15 **level, we're using the design designation.** 

### 16 **So, for example, under TSL 3, the** 

### 17 **first equipment class has the analytical** 

### 18 **design 7 at TSL 3. At TSL 4, it goes up to 8.** 

### 19 **At TSL 5, it goes up to 9.** 

### 20 **If you go down to the bottom,** 

### 21 **VCS.SC.I, you see that the TSL 3 and 4 are** 

### 22 **both AD9. And then at TSL 5, they go to AD10.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 254**  **1 So the composition is pretty**  

### 2 **variable. Some equipment classes don't change** 

### 3 **analytical design. As you go to TSL, some do.** 

### 4 **And this again is where you get** 

### 5 **into the complications with the lighting** 

### 6 **maintenance. If the design has different** 

### 7 **lighting choices for different equipment** 

### 8 **classes, you will get the different lighting** 

### 9 **costs.** 

### 10 **So this is the energy savings in** 

### 11 **quads associated with each equipment class and** 

### 12 **each TSL. And this again is summed over the** 

### 13 **entire analysis period. So this represents** 

### 14 **the 30-year period in which equipment is** 

### 15 **shipped. And we actually continue out. So if** 

### 16 **equipment is shipped in 2046, its lifetime** 

### 17 **energy consumption is included in this** 

### 18 **calculation. And, again, this is just the** 

### 19 **standardized approach that DOE uses.** 

### 20 **So the differences in these** 

### 21 **equipment class numbers are dependent both on** 

### 22 **the energy savings for the equipment and the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 255**  **1 number of shipments in that equipment class.**  

### 2 **And there are more detailed tables in the TSD** 

### 3 **with the breakdowns by efficiency level as** 

### 4 **well as by equipment class.** 

### 5 **Okay. Move on?** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: So this is the** 

### 8 **price trend, possibly not a very useful** 

### 9 **graphic. So, in trying to understand the way** 

### 10 **that the purchase price evolves over the** 

### 11 **analysis period, for the moment, the** 

### 12 **Department looks primarily at historical data,** 

### 13 **on just how in general certain categories of** 

### 14 **equipment prices change over time. And in** 

### 15 **many, many cases, you do see there is a slow** 

### 16 **but significant trend of price decreases as** 

### 17 **manufacturing processes get more efficient.** 

### 18 **So we use the PPI data that is** 

### 19 **published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.** 

### 20 **There is a PPI series for commercial** 

### 21 **refrigeration and related equipment. This** 

### 22 **gives a very slow -- this is I think about a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 256**  **1 quarter of a percent per year or slightly**  

### 2 **less. So it's a relatively slow trend, which** 

### 3 **we use in the reference case for the national** 

### 4 **impacts analysis that says out in 2045, the** 

### 5 **equipment prices will probably be about five** 

### 6 **percent lower than they are now.** 

### 7 **So, again, the capacity to improve** 

### 8 **these models exists. And it's mostly a data** 

### 9 **driven thing. And if anyone would like to** 

### 10 **comment, either on the methodology or on the** 

### 11 **inputs, DOE would appreciate your feedback.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon?** 

### 13 **MR. McHUGH: I've got a comment** 

### 14 **first in regards to Robert's comments earlier** 

### 15 **about the issue of "Well, you know, I may have** 

### 16 **some error in my equipment testing, my** 

### 17 **equipment models, or just the distribution of** 

### 18 **efficiencies amongst different equipment.** 

### 19 **And, moving forward, I would need to make sure** 

### 20 **that all of the products complied. And,** 

### 21 **therefore, I might actually sort of overshoot** 

### 22 **a little bit so that everything complied."**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 257**  **1 But that would be the case for the**  

### 2 **base case as well. And so, as a result, my** 

### 3 **expectation is that in conducting the national** 

### 4 **energy savings analysis that, that would** 

### 5 **essentially come out in the wash, that you** 

### 6 **would have to do that in both the base case** 

### 7 **situation that all of your products are** 

### 8 **complying and then also in this proposed** 

### 9 **situation.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert?** 

### 11 **MR. WILKINS: This is Robert. I** 

### 12 **don't know that we are there, though, yet in** 

### 13 **these product categories. I would have to** 

### 14 **defer to the equipment manufacturers.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce, do you want** 

### 16 **to?** 

### 17 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce Hierlmeier.** 

### 18 **Well, the base cases don't have any need to** 

### 19 **qualify to anything right now. The base case** 

### 20 **they chose was a non-regulated product. So** 

### 21 **the market worked off of spec sheets and use** 

### 22 **of the product. This will now have a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 258**  **1 different -- because someone is actually**  

### 2 **checking and testing it. So that will push** 

### 3 **that number down.** 

### 4 **MR. WILKINS: So that's going to** 

### 5 **have --** 

### 6 **PARTICIPANT: So that's a** 

### 7 **compliance issue, right, that the compliance** 

### 8 **is going to increase moving forward** 

### 9 **potentially?** 

### 10 **MR. McHUGH: Which product do you** 

### 11 **think is not regulated? I'm sorry. We have** 

### 12 **enforcement people in the --** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. The base case** 

### 14 **here is the 2012 standard.** 

### 15 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Okay. The** 

### 16 **baseline if you go back to the other one,** 

### 17 **though, was not regulated, which when you did** 

### 18 **the engineering analysis, you started out with** 

### 19 **these T8 cases, right? For your first level,** 

### 20 **it is T8 lighting and poor fan motors.** 

### 21 **MR. WILKINS: John, it is Robert.** 

### 22 **As Harvey has said, this has been a subject**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 259**  **1 of great amount of detail. As manufacturers**  

### 2 **come to realize that they're and only recently** 

### 3 **come to realize that they have got a -- not** 

### 4 **the average of their product but all of their** 

### 5 **products have to fully comply. And so it is** 

### 6 **forcing our numbers to ratchet this up in** 

### 7 **order to ensure we comply.** 

### 8 **But that really wasn't exactly my** 

### 9 **point.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Although that was a** 

### 11 **good point still.** 

### 12 **MR. WILKINS: Maybe that was a** 

### 13 **good point.** 

### 14 **My point was that I think this** 

### 15 **analysis uses two separate numbers because it** 

### 16 **bases its national energy savings on the mean** 

### 17 **expected value of this regulated -- but the** 

### 18 **manufacturers can't target that mean. They** 

### 19 **have to target three standard deviations more** 

### 20 **efficient than that in order --** 

### 21 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That is not** 

### 22 **accurate.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 260**  **1 MR. WILKINS: No?**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong?** 

### 3 **Let's hear from Ashley.** 

### 4 **MR. WILKINS: Straighten us out,** 

### 5 **then.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Ashley.** 

### 7 **Ashley Armstrong?** 

### 8 **MR. WILKINS: Straighten us out,** 

### 9 **Ashley.** 

### 10 **MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't believe** 

### 11 **that is accurate. So if you say that -- the** 

### 12 **standard level is the given reading for a** 

### 13 **basic model. Let's put it that way. And, you** 

### 14 **know, Harvey is accurate. We have gone** 

### 15 **through a long amount of meetings to come up** 

### 16 **with what the appropriate tolerances should be** 

### 17 **that manufacturers can apply when coming up** 

### 18 **with a rating. That will account for how** 

### 19 **their distribution from a unit-to-unit basis,** 

### 20 **how wide that distribution is, and how they** 

### 21 **determined their rating. That rating is what** 

### 22 **you're comparing to the standard level to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 261**  **1 determine compliance.**  

### 2 **So when you say that the** 

### 3 **distribution has to be shifted such that the** 

### 4 **distribution starts with the standard level in** 

### 5 **every unit they make has to be above the** 

### 6 **standard level, that is not true because we** 

### 7 **apply tolerance. So that distribution --** 

### 8 **MR. WILKINS: I misunderstood. I** 

### 9 **thought the requirement for compliance was** 

### 10 **that every unit you checked had to comply.** 

### 11 **Okay.** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, we can take** 

### 13 **away the tolerance and go that way, --** 

### 14 **MR. WILKINS: Never mind.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- although I'm** 

### 16 **pretty sure --** 

### 17 **MR. WILKINS: Ashley, we're just** 

### 18 **trying to understand --** 

### 19 **MS. ARMSTRONG: -- I'm going to be** 

### 20 **a --** 

### 21 **MR. WILKINS: -- this because my** 

### 22 **only point here was that I thought that if we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 262**  **1 did have to fully comply with 100 percent of**  

### 2 **our units to your requirements, if we did,** 

### 3 **then you are underestimating the national** 

### 4 **benefit because we can't -- our distribution** 

### 5 **is not this way. Our distribution is this** 

### 6 **way.** 

### 7 **MR. CYMBALSKY: You are saying you** 

### 8 **are going to over-comply just to be --** 

### 9 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: -- just to be** 

### 11 **conservative.** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: And some --** 

### 13 **MR. WILKINS: No, no, no. We are** 

### 14 **not going to over-comply.** 

### 15 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Well, isn't that** 

### 16 **what you said by being --** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: As long as the mean** 

### 18 **of the distribution is at the standard level,** 

### 19 **this is a correct analysis because for every** 

### 20 **units that is over, there will be one that is** 

### 21 **under.** 

### 22 **MR. WILKINS: I agree with that,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 263**  **1 but is the mean of the manufacturer's**  

### 2 **distribution at the standard level acceptable** 

### 3 **in your compliance program?** 

### 4 **MR. SACHS: Robert, this is** 

### 5 **Harvey. We can easily get into a very deep** 

### 6 **dive, including things like non-Gaussian** 

### 7 **distributions, which would be expected.** 

### 8 **I think the take-away here, in** 

### 9 **addition to the points that Ashley made, is** 

### 10 **one other. The groundwork laid by that** 

### 11 **working group moves everything to a one-sided** 

### 12 **test. There is no penalty for being too good.** 

### 13 **And what that means to you as a compressor** 

### 14 **manufacturer and to other component** 

### 15 **manufacturers is that I would expect you to be** 

### 16 **facing pressures to narrow the distribution of** 

### 17 **efficiencies of the components you are** 

### 18 **supplying to the OEMs. We think that is all** 

### 19 **to the good, but for an individual** 

### 20 **manufacturer, the construct is that you will** 

### 21 **have the choices of tightening up your** 

### 22 **tolerance bands on what you turn out or moving**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 264**  **1 your median up to give you a safety margin**  

### 2 **above the standard.** 

### 3 **But there even are statistics in** 

### 4 **terms of what happens if you or processes** 

### 5 **involve multiple tests if you fail the** 

### 6 **verification test.** 

### 7 **So I think this is one where DOE** 

### 8 **managed to involve a large group of people in** 

### 9 **almost enough analysis, as opposed to too** 

### 10 **much.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: I want to return to** 

### 12 **the slides. Keep going, Katie.** 

### 13 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: And at this time,** 

### 15 **I'm going to promise you shortly we're going** 

### 16 **to take a break. This group deserves to** 

### 17 **stretch their legs a little bit. So shortly** 

### 18 **we'll do that.** 

### 19 **Katie?** 

### 20 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So given the** 

### 21 **rapid changes in LED lighting technology** 

### 22 **prices, we also incorporated a price trend on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 265**  **1 LED when that is included as a design option.**  

### 2 **We don't need to spend a lot of time I think** 

### 3 **on this.** 

### 4 **So this is the NPV table** 

### 5 **associated with the different standard levels.** 

### 6 **And, again, this is the discounted. This is** 

### 7 **with the seven percent discount rate. So this** 

### 8 **is the balance of consumer costs and benefits.** 

### 9 **So a positive number in this table means an** 

### 10 **overall benefit to the consumer population.** 

### 11 **So this only includes the consumer economics.** 

### 12 **For the analysis period, DOE uses** 

### 13 **30 years. That's a standard analysis** 

### 14 **approach. And then there is also a variant of** 

### 15 **analysis that uses a nine-year analysis period** 

### 16 **at the request of OMB. And essentially the** 

### 17 **Department is open to suggestions about using** 

### 18 **other timelines for the analysis.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Aniruddh?** 

### 20 **MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, AHRI. On** 

### 21 **slide 76, you make an observation saying,** 

### 22 **"While these trends show large decreases in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 266**  **1 LED cost over time, LED lighting comprises an**  

### 2 **amount on the order of 5 percent of equipment** 

### 3 **MSP, so these changes are not a significant** 

### 4 **portion of equipment price." Is that a** 

### 5 **relative observation or is there actually a** 

### 6 **percentage which constitutes significant or** 

### 7 **non-significant cost to the equipment price?** 

### 8 **MS. COUGHLIN: I don't know the** 

### 9 **precise number. In the cost model, you can** 

### 10 **get the percentage of the cost that's** 

### 11 **associated --** 

### 12 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It is a** 

### 13 **qualitative statement. There is not a number** 

### 14 **that, you know, is significant.** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, correct.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you,** 

### 17 **Ashley.** 

### 18 **Here you see the comment box.** 

### 19 **Additional thoughts, comments on national** 

### 20 **impact analysis, both for lighting technology** 

### 21 **price trends and net present value?** 

### 22 **(No response.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 267**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're**  

### 2 **overdue for a break. Just ten minutes.** 

### 3 **Everybody get up and move around. It's now** 

### 4 **2:35, which means we're going to resume at** 

### 5 **2:45. And we're on the home stretch here, but** 

### 6 **this is some very, very important stuff to do** 

### 7 **when you return. So come back fresh.** 

### 8 **(Whereupon, the foregoing matter** 

### 9 **went off the record at 2:34 p.m. and went back** 

### 10 **on the record at 2:51 p.m.)** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, please take** 

### 12 **your seats. Let's resume. Okay, here we go.** 

### 13 **We're going to pick up where we left off.** 

### 14 **Manufacturer Impact Analysis will go** 

### 15 **efficiently, and we're going to hear from** 

### 16 **Christopher Lau.** 

### 17 **MR. LAU: Is this on? Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Christopher,** 

### 19 **it's yours.** 

### 20 **MR. LAU: All right, moving on.** 

### 21 **Chris Lau here. I'm with Navigant. I'll be** 

### 22 **discussing the Manufacturer Impact Analysis.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 268**  **1 The main purpose of this analysis**  

### 2 **is to assess the impact of amended standards** 

### 3 **on manufacturers of commercial refrigeration** 

### 4 **equipment as an industry. The second purpose** 

### 5 **is to identify and qualify the impacts on** 

### 6 **manufacturer subgroups, such as the impacts on** 

### 7 **small business manufacturers. The final** 

### 8 **portion of the MIA involves discussion of** 

### 9 **direct employment, competitive considerations,** 

### 10 **potential capacity constraints and other** 

### 11 **federal regulations that go into effect around** 

### 12 **the compliance of this rulemaking.** 

### 13 **The primary tool use is the** 

### 14 **Government Regulatory Impact Model. It's a** 

### 15 **cash flow model used to represent the industry** 

### 16 **as a whole. The major output from the cash** 

### 17 **flow model is the industry net present value,** 

### 18 **or INPV. The change in INPV is used to** 

### 19 **succinctly quantify the impacts of amended** 

### 20 **standards on CRE manufacturers.** 

### 21 **For the MIA, DOE conducted** 

### 22 **extensive interviews of manufacturers of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 269**  **1 covered product to validate and redefine the**  

### 2 **inputs to the Government Regulatory Impact** 

### 3 **Model and to understand qualitative issues.** 

### 4 **We typically do this analysis over** 

### 5 **three phases. Phase One happens during the** 

### 6 **preliminary analysis. We basically create an** 

### 7 **industry profile, pull together financial** 

### 8 **metrics from public sources such as SEC** 

### 9 **filing, US Census data, and research reports.** 

### 10 **The bulk of the work occurs during Phase 2 and** 

### 11 **3, the NOPR phase, where we are now. Using** 

### 12 **public data as well as inputs from the** 

### 13 **Engineering Analysis and the Shipments** 

### 14 **Analysis we began to outline industry in the** 

### 15 **Government Regulatory Impact Model.** 

### 16 **Key quantitative inputs and** 

### 17 **qualitative issues are validated with industry** 

### 18 **in interviews. So, switching from process to** 

### 19 **content, this slide details the key issues** 

### 20 **that manufacturers cited during our** 

### 21 **interviews.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 270**  **1 We've discussed on this today**  

### 2 **already, however, I'll go over them again.** 

### 3 **Manufacturers expressed concern about** 

### 4 **enforcement, or perhaps another way to put it** 

### 5 **is maintaining a level playing field.** 

### 6 **Manufacturers are concerned about lax or** 

### 7 **inconsistent enforcement, could mean that** 

### 8 **manufacturers that make the investments comply** 

### 9 **would be at a pricing disadvantage. Relative** 

### 10 **to bad actors, DOE intends to, of course,** 

### 11 **maintain enforcement to maintain the level** 

### 12 **playing field.** 

### 13 **Small manufacturers noted that** 

### 14 **they could be at a disproportionate -- they** 

### 15 **could be at a competitive disadvantage** 

### 16 **relative to their larger competitors. We** 

### 17 **actually do a fairly detailed analysis of this** 

### 18 **in the NOPR notice, and we'll touch on it** 

### 19 **later in a few slides.** 

### 20 **Finally, manufacturers noted that** 

### 21 **they were concerned about potential loss of** 

### 22 **product utility, particularly loss of space**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 271**  **1 and configuration, as well as decreases in**  

### 2 **food safety.** 

### 3 **I'm going to keep moving off this.** 

### 4 **We had a fairly extensive discussion about** 

### 5 **this in the Engineering and Screening** 

### 6 **Analysis. Try and get to the GRIM.** 

### 7 **We model two markup scenarios. At** 

### 8 **the upper bound, we model a case where** 

### 9 **manufacturers are able to maintain the same** 

### 10 **gross margins on a percentage basis as the** 

### 11 **product gets more efficient; meaning that DOE** 

### 12 **applies the same markup before and after the** 

### 13 **standard. This suggests that manufacturers are** 

### 14 **able to pass on increased production costs to** 

### 15 **their customers.** 

### 16 **At the lower bound we do a** 

### 17 **preservation operating profit scenario. What** 

### 18 **this means is DOE applies a markup at each TSL** 

### 19 **that results in the same operating profit in** 

### 20 **absolute dollars terms before and after the** 

### 21 **standard. Manufacturers’ capital base** 

### 22 **increase, they make additional investments;**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 272**  **1 however, they're not able to increase their**  

### 2 **profits from those investments.** 

### 3 **So, taking those markups in** 

### 4 **account, taking the financial metrics that we** 

### 5 **mined from SEC filings, including the MPCs** 

### 6 **from Engineering, and the Shipment Forecast** 

### 7 **from the Shipments Analysis, as well as** 

### 8 **conversion cost estimates, we're able to put** 

### 9 **together this INPV of the industry.** 

### 10 **I don't know if we've actually** 

### 11 **shown all the TSLs and the selected standard** 

### 12 **before this slide. I feel like 85 slides, and** 

### 13 **it's the first time we see the result, but, in** 

### 14 **general, we see is the industry is expected to** 

### 15 **lose between 3.95 and 7.97 percent of its** 

### 16 **value, or roughly 4 to 8 percent. A key driver** 

### 17 **of this is industry conversion costs totaling** 

### 18 **$87.5 million. These conversions costs are key** 

### 19 **driver of the loss, and they are due to** 

### 20 **investments in capital equipment, product** 

### 21 **redesign, and industry certifications. That's** 

### 22 **for the industry as a whole.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 273**  **1 We also take a look at what**  

### 2 **happens to small businesses as a subgroup. In** 

### 3 **general, the definition of small business has** 

### 4 **come to us from the SBA, the Small Business** 

### 5 **Administration. It's based off of the NAICS** 

### 6 **code, so the threshold is 750 employees or** 

### 7 **less. We tried to identify these companies by** 

### 8 **mining multiple public databases, as well as** 

### 9 **through private discussions with various** 

### 10 **manufacturers. In total, we identified 32** 

### 11 **small manufacturers of CRE equipment.** 

### 12 **DOE did identify potential** 

### 13 **differential impacts on those small** 

### 14 **businesses. A small business would face** 

### 15 **disadvantage relative -- disadvantages** 

### 16 **relative to their larger competitors in terms** 

### 17 **of access to capital and cost of capital.** 

### 18 **Redesign investments and industry** 

### 19 **certification costs can be fixed. They don't** 

### 20 **scale with volume, so the small manufacturers** 

### 21 **who have lower sales volumes may have a more** 

### 22 **difficult time with cost recovery.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 274**  **1 Finally, small manufacturers have**  

### 2 **lowering purchasing volumes and, therefore,** 

### 3 **they may be penalized when it comes to** 

### 4 **component parts pricing.** 

### 5 **In the NOPR we cut this several** 

### 6 **different ways, but roughly what we see is the** 

### 7 **impact on small manufacturers is relatively** 

### 8 **higher, 10 times. Do we have any comments on** 

### 9 **the impact on industry and on small** 

### 10 **manufacturers?** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Aniruddh.** 

### 12 **MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, AHRI. I** 

### 13 **have a question on the GRIM, I guess the** 

### 14 **inputs that went into the GRIM. One is, did** 

### 15 **you account for the -- because it was between** 

### 16 **2017 and 2046, I believe, did you account for** 

### 17 **any kind of conversion cost with respect to** 

### 18 **the refrigerants over a period of time, or** 

### 19 **even let's say the subsequent rulemakings that** 

### 20 **DOE would do on the commercial equipment?** 

### 21 **Because I believe every six years, the energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 275**  **1 conservation standards would be evaluated, so**  

### 2 **are those accounted for in the GRIM?** 

### 3 **MR. LAU: So, the MIA is unique in** 

### 4 **that its analysis period starts earlier before** 

### 5 **the standards year because manufacturers have** 

### 6 **to invest conversion costs ahead of the** 

### 7 **compliance dates. However, we do not take --** 

### 8 **we have not taken the cost -- into account** 

### 9 **the cost of new refrigerants. Also, because** 

### 10 **what we look at is the change in INPV, we** 

### 11 **don't look at the future rules. We don't know** 

### 12 **what the cost of those will be, but in theory** 

### 13 **whether you have -- in theory regardless of** 

### 14 **what standard you go to, those future changes** 

### 15 **will occur, so it kind of balances out. They** 

### 16 **bring that out, if that makes sense. I guess** 

### 17 **the simple answer is no, we don't take into** 

### 18 **account future DOE -- the cost of future DOE** 

### 19 **rulemakings.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 21 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins,** 

### 22 **Danfoss. You said earlier that price**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 276**  **1 elasticity of demand was not considered, and**  

### 2 **I'd suggest it should be considered. I don't** 

### 3 **have a figure that I can say it should be this** 

### 4 **or that, but when you raise the price of the** 

### 5 **product 10, 15, 20 percent and you've got an** 

### 6 **option over here of rebuilt equipment that's** 

### 7 **refurbished, how can you not assume there's** 

### 8 **going to be some shift from new equipment to** 

### 9 **this old, inefficient equipment? So, I'd urge** 

### 10 **you to take that into consideration through** 

### 11 **our Economic Analysis.** 

### 12 **MR. LAU: Yes, we take that under** 

### 13 **consideration.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional** 

### 15 **comments here?** 

### 16 **MR. LAU: Move on to the next one?** 

### 17 **Cumulative Regulatory Burden. Some CRE** 

### 18 **manufacturers also produce walk-in equipment** 

### 19 **which had a NOPR issued a week after the CRE** 

### 20 **NOPR was published. Also, there's ongoing CC** 

### 21 **and rulemakings that cover commercial** 

### 22 **refrigeration equipment as discussed earlier**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 277**  **1 today by Jon and Charlie. However, if there**  

### 2 **are other key regulations that go into effect** 

### 3 **three -- within three years of 2017, which is** 

### 4 **anticipated CRE compliance date, DOE would** 

### 5 **like to hear about it and will incorporate it** 

### 6 **in its CRB discussion.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 8 **MR. McHUGH: I've got a question** 

### 9 **for the group. So, Robert brought up --** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Turn the mic on.** 

### 11 **MR. McHUGH: I'm sorry, thank you.** 

### 12 **So Robert has brought up the issue about** 

### 13 **elasticity of sales relative to the whole** 

### 14 **market having increased prices due to the** 

### 15 **standard. I'm wondering if, you know, AHRI or** 

### 16 **one of your industry groups has some** 

### 17 **information about elasticity of sales? My** 

### 18 **understanding is that in terms of real dollars** 

### 19 **the price of refrigeration equipment has** 

### 20 **dropped. And is there any kind of study that** 

### 21 **identifies the impact on sales relative to the** 

### 22 **drop in the real price of products? Because I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 278**  **1 don't know how you'd answer the question**  

### 2 **unless there's some kind of data that gives** 

### 3 **you some kind of coefficient or something that** 

### 4 **identifies that relationship.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 6 **MR. WILKINS: Robert. I'm not an** 

### 7 **economist. I don't know how to do it. I think** 

### 8 **what's happened, if commercial refrigeration** 

### 9 **equipment prices have declined, it's been a** 

### 10 **steady decline by market forces of a percent** 

### 11 **or two here and there and the other. What** 

### 12 **we're talking about is a 10, 15, to 20 percent** 

### 13 **stepwise increase. And I think that's totally** 

### 14 **different than a slight increase over time** 

### 15 **truly hidden in the inflation rate.** 

### 16 **Katie said that their models --** 

### 17 **the economists have other, and don't let me** 

### 18 **misquote you, but that the economists have** 

### 19 **methods for dealing with these things because** 

### 20 **they have examples in other sectors. That** 

### 21 **might be one approach to look at.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 279**  **1 MR. HON: This is difficult. You**  

### 2 **make a comment about costs actually going down** 

### 3 **in our industry, and in our sector of the** 

### 4 **industry that's probably a true statement, but** 

### 5 **the total sales are also down in that same** 

### 6 **period of time for several reasons. You know,** 

### 7 **2009 isn't that long ago, and we were all** 

### 8 **driven down in costs, and we went every way** 

### 9 **possible to find. We're also seeing a lot of** 

### 10 **importation of foreign product which is** 

### 11 **effectively lower priced than what we're** 

### 12 **dealing with today, so that's an impact driver** 

### 13 **on the market, as well.** 

### 14 **So, do I believe that the prices** 

### 15 **are down from five years ago? Yes, I do.** 

### 16 **Percentage wise, dollar -- true dollar value,** 

### 17 **but it isn't necessarily going to continue** 

### 18 **that way because we're looking at some** 

### 19 **substantial potential cost increases in the** 

### 20 **very near future. We're looking at if the** 

### 21 **phase-outs of HFCs that we use today actually** 

### 22 **go through, you are limited in certain market**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 280**  **1 shares of what you can use, some of which may**  

### 2 **be some of the HFOs. Those may have an** 

### 3 **incremental cost of five to ten times what** 

### 4 **they're paying today for refrigerants.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 6 **MR. WILKINS: Robert Wilkins. Chris** 

### 7 **talked about the cumulative regulatory burden,** 

### 8 **and if we're aware of other regulation, et** 

### 9 **cetera. And the refrigerant side is clearly** 

### 10 **one of where regulation is coming. No, it's** 

### 11 **not DOE regulation, but it's regulation of** 

### 12 **these same manufacturers, and is consuming the** 

### 13 **energies of their product development people.** 

### 14 **And that is simultaneous to this.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 16 **Your name, please?** 

### 17 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden,** 

### 18 **Air Conditioning Contractors of America. Under** 

### 19 **the cumulative regulatory burden, is this rule** 

### 20 **going to trigger a review under the Regulatory** 

### 21 **Flexibility Act? Does this rise to a major or** 

### 22 **a significant rule?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 281**  **1 MR. LAU: It does, and the Reg Flex**  

### 2 **Act, typically what it requires is for DOE to** 

### 3 **make a statement about whether the rulemaking** 

### 4 **will substantially impact a significant number** 

### 5 **of small businesses. And we have provided that** 

### 6 **analysis.** 

### 7 **MR. McCRUDDEN: And it's my** 

### 8 **understanding that you have to look at** 

### 9 **alternative non-regulatory methods to reach** 

### 10 **the same goals.** 

### 11 **MR. LAU: That is correct.** 

### 12 **MR. McCRUDDEN: What are you --** 

### 13 **have you run that yet, or do we know what** 

### 14 **that --** 

### 15 **MR. LAU: It has been done. I'm** 

### 16 **actually going to leave it up to discussion in** 

### 17 **the RIA Analysis, which is coming in just a** 

### 18 **few slides.** 

### 19 **MR. CYMBALSKY: There's a slide on** 

### 20 **that, Charlie.** 

### 21 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay. I'm too soon?** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: You're too soon.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 282**  **1 MR. McCRUDDEN: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. LAU: Ahead of the curve.** 

### 3 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Thanks.** 

### 4 **MR. LAU: I will hand the** 

### 5 **microphone back over to Katie.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Katie.** 

### 7 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So, I'm going** 

### 8 **to take you through the last few analyses that** 

### 9 **close out the NOPR phase of the rulemaking.** 

### 10 **The first is the LCC Subgroup Analysis where** 

### 11 **the goal is to identify any particular** 

### 12 **subsector of customers who may have adverse** 

### 13 **impacts because they have -- you know, we use** 

### 14 **distributions for all these different** 

### 15 **parameters. If they have unfavorable values in** 

### 16 **many of those parameters they may have** 

### 17 **negative impacts. So, the method is** 

### 18 **essentially the same as the LCC. It's just** 

### 19 **that we take a smaller group of consumers and** 

### 20 **we adjust the values for energy prices,** 

### 21 **discount rates, and markups in a way that's** 

### 22 **appropriate for that subgroup.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 283**  **1 For this rulemaking the primary**  

### 2 **concern is small businesses which are -- do** 

### 3 **not have access to national accounts so that** 

### 4 **they'll have higher distribution channel** 

### 5 **markups. They also tend to see higher costs of** 

### 6 **capital, but they also see higher electricity** 

### 7 **prices, so those are two competing effects and** 

### 8 **you don't necessarily get a significant impact** 

### 9 **on the LCC.** 

### 10 **So, the second sub bullet point** 

### 11 **here is somewhat misleading. If you consider** 

### 12 **small businesses as a whole, the higher** 

### 13 **electricity prices tend to balance out the** 

### 14 **higher cost of capital and higher markups and** 

### 15 **you don't get a large change in LCC. However,** 

### 16 **in the TSD the Department published the worst** 

### 17 **case scenario which happened to be associated** 

### 18 **with gas station convenience stores which** 

### 19 **according to CBECs actually have lower than** 

### 20 **average electricity prices. So, for that** 

### 21 **particular subgroup there does tend to be a** 

### 22 **negative impact in the sense that the LCC**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 284**  **1 savings go down, but the LCC savings don't**  

### 2 **decrease so much that there are no savings.** 

### 3 **And that's the worst case that was analyzed.** 

### 4 **The next analysis is the Emissions** 

### 5 **Analysis. So, this is part of the data that** 

### 6 **DOE is required to publish to quantify the** 

### 7 **impacts of a standard. There's a number of** 

### 8 **pollutants that are required in the analysis.** 

### 9 **They are essentially either power sector** 

### 10 **pollutants or global warming pollutants, so** 

### 11 **the table here presents the cumulative** 

### 12 **emissions reductions due to decreased** 

### 13 **electricity use over the analysis period as a** 

### 14 **function of the standard level.** 

### 15 **The first one is CO2, which tends** 

### 16 **to scale essentially directly with energy** 

### 17 **consumption. The next is NOx, which is a power** 

### 18 **sector pollutant, and mercury, as well. And** 

### 19 **nitrous oxide is a global warming pollutant** 

### 20 **that is associated with the production of** 

### 21 **energy, so the Department now uses what's** 

### 22 **called the Full Fuel Cycle Energy Metric which**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 285**  **1 includes in addition to say the coal burned in**  

### 2 **a power plant, the diesel and whatever that** 

### 3 **was used to produce the coal. So, when you go** 

### 4 **upstream of the power plant you have a lot of** 

### 5 **activities that involve engines that produce** 

### 6 **NOx emissions and those sorts of things, or** 

### 7 **nitrous oxide emissions, and additional NOx** 

### 8 **emissions, so those are included here. There's** 

### 9 **methane emissions which, again, are associated** 

### 10 **with natural gas and oil production. And,** 

### 11 **finally, sulfur dioxide which is primarily a** 

### 12 **power plant emission.** 

### 13 **So, there are emissions -- there** 

### 14 **are sort of, again, sort of rules for** 

### 15 **government agencies about monetizing** 

### 16 **emissions. And the one that's most significant** 

### 17 **in dollar terms is the carbon, so the federal** 

### 18 **government convened an interagency process** 

### 19 **several years ago to develop these estimates** 

### 20 **of what are called the Social Costs of Carbon,** 

### 21 **which you can think of as an avoided cost**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 286**  **1 associated with damages incurred by carbon**  

### 2 **pollution.** 

### 3 **So, the ones that have been** 

### 4 **modeled explicitly at the moment include** 

### 5 **agricultural productivity, health, property** 

### 6 **damage from sea level rise, and various** 

### 7 **ecosystem changes that reduce ecosystem value.** 

### 8 **So, there was a recent update in 2013 where** 

### 9 **new values were published for the Social Costs** 

### 10 **of Carbon which are listed here. There's a** 

### 11 **very large range, there's a long discussion in** 

### 12 **the TSD, and then there are references if** 

### 13 **you're interested in this in general. This is** 

### 14 **an evolving aspect of government policy, in** 

### 15 **general, so DOE simply follows the interagency** 

### 16 **guidelines that have been laid out, and** 

### 17 **includes the Social Cost of Carbon monetized** 

### 18 **values in the TSD. But these monetized values** 

### 19 **have not been added into the other NPV** 

### 20 **benefits numbers.** 

### 21 **There is also instruction to** 

### 22 **monetize the reductions in NOx emissions, and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 287**  **1 this is a little simpler. There's a high,**  

### 2 **medium, and low estimate published, and we use** 

### 3 **the medium estimate in the tables. So, again,** 

### 4 **this is the values associated with the Social** 

### 5 **Cost of Carbon by TSL, and then at the** 

### 6 **different -- there's two different discount** 

### 7 **rates that we're mandated to use, and then the** 

### 8 **different SEC values. So it's, again, for** 

### 9 **largely information purposes at this point.** 

### 10 **These are not added to NPV. And these are CO2** 

### 11 **only. These are not CO2-equivalent. So, for** 

### 12 **example, the methane and nitrous oxide numbers** 

### 13 **are not monetized currently.** 

### 14 **This is the present value** 

### 15 **associated with NOx reductions. And currently,** 

### 16 **again, there's no number associated with** 

### 17 **monetization of either mercury or sulfur** 

### 18 **dioxide.** 

### 19 **And then in addition to the** 

### 20 **Emissions Analysis as part of the general** 

### 21 **analysis, we produce what we call the Utility** 

### 22 **Impact Analysis, which is actually the driver**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 288**  **1 on the emissions numbers. It's to look at the**  

### 2 **way that the reduced demand for electricity** 

### 3 **affects the build out of new generation over** 

### 4 **the analysis period. So we take the energy** 

### 5 **savings that are predicted by the National** 

### 6 **Impacts Analysis. We use a version of the** 

### 7 **National Energy Modeling System that EIA puts** 

### 8 **out which is an actual code that you can run** 

### 9 **with certain assumptions about electricity** 

### 10 **demand. And we look at the difference between** 

### 11 **the base case identified by EIA for the next** 

### 12 **30 years for electricity demand, we shave that** 

### 13 **electricity demand by the amount given from** 

### 14 **the National Impacts Analysis, and we look at** 

### 15 **the change in total capacity build-out and** 

### 16 **generation in the electricity sector. So,** 

### 17 **those are actually the inputs that then allow** 

### 18 **us to deduce the emissions reductions.** 

### 19 **And in addition to the emissions** 

### 20 **reductions, we have reductions in total** 

### 21 **installed capacity in megawatts, and the total** 

### 22 **electricity generation reduction in gigawatt**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 289**  **1 hours projected over the analysis period and**  

### 2 **by TSL.** 

### 3 **Another side analysis that the** 

### 4 **Department -- oh, sorry. Yes?** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 6 **MR. McHUGH: Jon McHugh. That** 

### 7 **analysis for utility impacts, when you look at** 

### 8 **that in the context of a national model does** 

### 9 **it actually result in actually bending the** 

### 10 **curve that there's actually a reduction in** 

### 11 **electricity generation, or just that the** 

### 12 **electricity generation is not increasing at** 

### 13 **the same rate? You know, because there's a** 

### 14 **difference of --** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. McHUGH: I've got power plants** 

### 17 **I'm not utilizing --** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's right.** 

### 19 **MR. McHUGH: -- versus I'm not** 

### 20 **building more power plants.** 

### 21 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So, the base** 

### 22 **case for this is the projection that comes out**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 290**  **1 of AEO, which generally shows an expanding**  

### 2 **sector, so it expands less quickly under --** 

### 3 **MR. McHUGH: Right. Okay, thank** 

### 4 **you.** 

### 5 **MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, AHRI. So,** 

### 6 **Katie, you're saying that as far as the Social** 

### 7 **Cost of Carbon is concerned, the emissions** 

### 8 **dollar amounts that you came up with, those** 

### 9 **are not being included in the NPV?** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's correct.** 

### 11 **MR. ROY: Is that correct?** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. ROY: Okay. In the Federal** 

### 14 **Register Notice, page 55981, in that there's** 

### 15 **discussion, and this is under, I believe, the** 

### 16 **section, I guess, Discussion of Analytical** 

### 17 **Results. Over there, there's a comparison** 

### 18 **being made between TSL3 and TSL4, where you do** 

### 19 **discuss CO2 and NOx emissions. And at least** 

### 20 **from that discussion, my reading suggests that** 

### 21 **it seems like, you know, you move slightly** 

### 22 **towards the TSL4 realm because of these CO2**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 291**  **1 and NOx emission numbers. So, at least that**  

### 2 **particular page suggests that it was factored** 

### 3 **into the decision making, the CO2 and the NOx** 

### 4 **emissions, but I may be wrong. That's at least** 

### 5 **my reading from that page.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes. I can't really** 

### 7 **comment on policy. Certainly, you know, it's** 

### 8 **additional information that can be considered,** 

### 9 **but --** 

### 10 **MR. ROY: Okay. But just for the** 

### 11 **record, it's not being considered in the NPV,** 

### 12 **and the numbers are not being used to** 

### 13 **determine the TSL4. Right? Like when you** 

### 14 **compare the different TSLs, the --** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's correct.** 

### 16 **MR. ROY: -- emissions are not --** 

### 17 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, redefining what** 

### 18 **TSL4 is, we take only the NPV associated with** 

### 19 **the customer impacts.** 

### 20 **MR. ROY: Okay, thank you.** 

### 21 **MS. COUGHLIN: That's correct.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 292**  **1 Okay. So the Employment Analysis**  

### 2 **is another side analysis to look at whether** 

### 3 **there is a net job creation resulting from the** 

### 4 **standard. This is an indirect effect, so the** 

### 5 **MIA looks at the direct employment impacts** 

### 6 **within the manufacturing sectors that are** 

### 7 **affected directly by the standard. And then** 

### 8 **the indirect effect that we try to capture** 

### 9 **here is sort of if you have a reduction in** 

### 10 **expenditures for electricity that provides** 

### 11 **extra dollars that can be spent elsewhere in** 

### 12 **the economy, and how might those extra dollars** 

### 13 **impact overall employment.** 

### 14 **The methodology is this ImSET** 

### 15 **which is an input/output model that looks at** 

### 16 **mostly correlations between dollars spent in** 

### 17 **one sector and dollars in another sector. And** 

### 18 **the output is overall change in employment** 

### 19 **across the entire economy. So, these numbers** 

### 20 **are not large, and possibly valid to one** 

### 21 **digit, I think maybe, and possibly two. So,** 

### 22 **what you see is that most standard levels**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 293**  **1 you're looking at on the order of 10 to a few**  

### 2 **hundred jobs which is -- I would largely say** 

### 3 **probably noise. But the impacts are positive.** 

### 4 **There's no significant loss of employment due** 

### 5 **to the standard unless you look at TSL5 in** 

### 6 **2017, where the large increase in cost has an** 

### 7 **effect.** 

### 8 **So, the Regulatory Impact Analysis** 

### 9 **which we referred to before is a relatively** 

### 10 **brief look at non-regulatory alternatives to** 

### 11 **incentivize improved efficiency in the product** 

### 12 **market. And the specific non-regulatory** 

### 13 **alternatives that can be modeled are: the easy** 

### 14 **one is no new regulatory action, so that's** 

### 15 **essentially leave things as they are, which is** 

### 16 **our base case. Early replacement would be some** 

### 17 **kind of incentive program which tries to get** 

### 18 **people to -- give them a rebate or something** 

### 19 **to get rid of an old piece of equipment and** 

### 20 **buy a more efficient piece of equipment. There** 

### 21 **are prescriptive standards, there are tax** 

### 22 **credits, manufacturer tax credits, rebates,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 294**  **1 and then voluntary targets, sort of market**  

### 2 **transformation programs. In some products,** 

### 3 **there's also bulk government procurement but** 

### 4 **that's not relevant to this particular product** 

### 5 **area.** 

### 6 **The methodology that is used is to** 

### 7 **take the same spreadsheet, the National** 

### 8 **Impacts Analysis and Shipments Models and** 

### 9 **modify the inputs to mimic the effects of** 

### 10 **these other programs. And then the output is** 

### 11 **the National Energy Savings and NPV numbers** 

### 12 **that you would get in an alternative to a** 

### 13 **regulatory program. So, for example, the** 

### 14 **penetration rate of new technology would be** 

### 15 **altered under different scenarios depending on** 

### 16 **how effective tax credits are, or how** 

### 17 **effective rebate programs are.** 

### 18 **In these cases, the Department did** 

### 19 **not have a lot of information on how** 

### 20 **alternative programs have been structured in** 

### 21 **the past. And, again, that's the primary guide** 

### 22 **to predicting how they might operate in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 295**  **1 future. So, in general, the alternatives that**  

### 2 **were considered did not really show** 

### 3 **significant energy savings compared to the** 

### 4 **regulatory program.** 

### 5 **So, in this table we have the list** 

### 6 **of policy alternatives, no new regulatory** 

### 7 **action is the base line, so there's no savings** 

### 8 **associated with it. Consumer tax credits can** 

### 9 **give you about 0.15 quads, and rebates about** 

### 10 **0.2 quads, and the other two alternatives do** 

### 11 **not appear to have much impact on the market** 

### 12 **to the best of our knowledge. And this is** 

### 13 **compared to the roughly one quad that is going** 

### 14 **to come out of the proposed standards. Yes?** 

### 15 **MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, AHRI. In** 

### 16 **this analysis, has there been any** 

### 17 **consideration of the standards that went into** 

### 18 **effect on January 1st, 2012, and the effect** 

### 19 **that has taken -- that has had over this** 

### 20 **period of time?** 

### 21 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. ROY: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 296**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: So, we talked about**  

### 2 **those efficiency distributions in the base** 

### 3 **case, that includes the effect of these** 

### 4 **standards, moving everybody sort of up in the** 

### 5 **base line.** 

### 6 **MR. ROY: Okay, thank you.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Steve.** 

### 8 **MR. COUSINS: I was looking at the** 

### 9 **slide, and I guess what I was struggling with** 

### 10 **was voluntary energy efficiency targets, and I** 

### 11 **see zeros across the board. I guess the world** 

### 12 **I live in, I see more and more businesses and** 

### 13 **customers raising a flag around** 

### 14 **sustainability. I mean, it is a major part of** 

### 15 **our business. Everyone is concerned about** 

### 16 **energy. My company and all its competition, we** 

### 17 **have active programs, and we've got this** 

### 18 **program where we -- by 2020 we want to reduce** 

### 19 **the carbon in a beverage, a single serving of** 

### 20 **beverage by 25 percent, which means that we** 

### 21 **can't grow our carbon footprint from where we** 

### 22 **are now. Inside my company we see in order to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 297**  **1 make that happen, we have to reduce the energy**  

### 2 **consumption of our equipment, our cold drink** 

### 3 **equipment by 25 percent by 2016. You know,** 

### 4 **we're actively involved in energy reduction.** 

### 5 **Our competition is, all of our customers are.** 

### 6 **Energy Star is written into every contract** 

### 7 **that we do. It's not our decision, it's our** 

### 8 **customers’ decision. I see at least in the** 

### 9 **world I live in a great deal of voluntary** 

### 10 **energy efficiency changes. I look at this** 

### 11 **slide, I just see zeroes across the board.** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right. So, there** 

### 13 **have been a lot of programs conducted at state** 

### 14 **and utility level, and it's true there's a lot** 

### 15 **of discussion, and a lot of thinking about it,** 

### 16 **but in terms of quantifiable energy savings,** 

### 17 **it's not clear that to date these programs** 

### 18 **have produced significant amounts. So, you** 

### 19 **know, again, this is always an issue of being** 

### 20 **able to quantify things based on existing** 

### 21 **data.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 298**  **1 MR. COUSINS: So, the Energy Star**  

### 2 **program doesn't produce any significant** 

### 3 **reduction in energy? I mean, that's a** 

### 4 **voluntary program.** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: For this product** 

### 6 **category, yes, that's the --** 

### 7 **MR. COUSINS: So, Energy Star is** 

### 8 **ineffective then.** 

### 9 **MS. COUGHLIN: Energy Star is** 

### 10 **effective in many product categories, but not** 

### 11 **all.** 

### 12 **MR. COUSINS: I'm talking about --** 

### 13 **I'm talking this commercial refrigeration** 

### 14 **category. Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: Katie, this is Harvey,** 

### 16 **and I guess there's sort of some cognitive** 

### 17 **dissonance here, if I can use the term. I just** 

### 18 **learned it.** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **MR. SACHS: I've just been told** 

### 21 **that Energy Star has released its Version 3,** 

### 22 **and to get back to their 25 percent of models**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 299**  **1 qualifying they had to siphon it to remove**  

### 2 **about half the products that were qualified** 

### 3 **under the former level.** 

### 4 **Now, this seems to indicate, and I** 

### 5 **think I've heard echoes of that from some of** 

### 6 **the manufacturers today, that this has really** 

### 7 **been affecting what is shipped. And what I'm** 

### 8 **hearing from DOE is, I don't want to say well,** 

### 9 **this is EPA, it can't count, because I'm sure** 

### 10 **that's not the case, I hope. But in this case,** 

### 11 **you'd rather use no number than a bad number,** 

### 12 **and we've seen an awful lot of cases today** 

### 13 **where we've chosen to use, shall we say an** 

### 14 **uncertain number, or guess, instead of no** 

### 15 **number.** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: It's important to** 

### 17 **remember that we're looking here at the** 

### 18 **predicted market in 2017, so again, given the** 

### 19 **information at the time that the analysis was** 

### 20 **done, something like Energy Star impacting** 

### 21 **that hypothetical market in 2017 was not seen** 

### 22 **to be significant.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 300**  **1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again,**  

### 2 **and I can appreciate that we're relying on an** 

### 3 **obsolete analysis because of an obsolete** 

### 4 **Office of Management and Budget, or** 

### 5 **obstructionist Office of Management and Budget** 

### 6 **that's working against all of us. But** 

### 7 **certainly today we can use the information** 

### 8 **from the analysis for the Energy Star Version** 

### 9 **3 for CRE as a predicted basis which we might** 

### 10 **want to discount on the effect of Version 3 in** 

### 11 **2017. That doesn't seem like any more of a** 

### 12 **stretch than a lot of the other things we've** 

### 13 **done in this analysis. It just doesn't have** 

### 14 **four decimals on it.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, do you wish** 

### 16 **to go next?** 

### 17 **MR. HON: I have a lot of comments,** 

### 18 **be prepared. Number one, Energy Star has a** 

### 19 **Version 3.0 which the comment period ended** 

### 20 **about two weeks ago. We're still getting** 

### 21 **communications back and forth on some of the** 

### 22 **topics, but it's still under review.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 301**  **1 That change took the category -**  

### 2 **basically, Energy Star claimed they had 62** 

### 3 **percent of the products being sold in the** 

### 4 **United States were listed under Energy Star. I** 

### 5 **don't know if that's a true number or not, but** 

### 6 **that was their number, and they've taken it** 

### 7 **down to what they project as 24 percent of the** 

### 8 **market, which is their basic creed. You get it** 

### 9 **up above 50 percent, you knock it down to the** 

### 10 **best 25 percent. You get above 50 percent, you** 

### 11 **bring it back to the next 25 percent. And** 

### 12 **that's basically how they do it, pure** 

### 13 **statistics on the numbers available to them.** 

### 14 **So, basically, by the rounding of different** 

### 15 **things they got the 24 percent, which is not a** 

### 16 **big deal in the market for us, but it is a** 

### 17 **very important factor.** 

### 18 **Questions about Energy Star in our** 

### 19 **company, it is a standard statement about** 

### 20 **countless customers who will not even consider** 

### 21 **a product that is not Energy Star. The reason** 

### 22 **we listed so many products is because there**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 302**  **1 was a demand for it, whether it be from rebate**  

### 2 **dollars, but that's how the thing really got** 

### 3 **moving. But now even if there's no rebate** 

### 4 **dollars involved, it's still a hot item, so I** 

### 5 **don't know how you can give it a zero value.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: Well, it's not --** 

### 7 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So, Charlie, we've** 

### 8 **discussed this privately. So, if our standard** 

### 9 **as proposed came into effect in 2017, in 2017** 

### 10 **what would Energy Star look like, and what** 

### 11 **impact would it have?** 

### 12 **MS. COUGHLIN: And I would just say** 

### 13 **it has to be a new action on the part of** 

### 14 **Energy Star to fit into the --** 

### 15 **MR. HON: Okay. I'm going to give** 

### 16 **you some numbers that you may not like to hear** 

### 17 **right now. These are just basic numbers, plug** 

### 18 **in the calculations. I took four categories,** 

### 19 **this is our mainstay of our market. Solid door** 

### 20 **self-contained refrigerators, glass doored** 

### 21 **self-contained refrigerators, solid door self** 

### 22 **contained freezers, solid door -- actually,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 303**  **1 it's glass door self-contained freezers, all**  

### 2 **of which we ran the numbers of this proposal** 

### 3 **compared to the energy numbers of Energy Star** 

### 4 **3.0, which is not in effect yet. We ran a 5-** 

### 5 **cubic foot, a 10, a 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70,** 

### 6 **basically, the gambit of the market. It just** 

### 7 **is the gambit of all the things. We took the** 

### 8 **numbers on solid door refrigerators, took all** 

### 9 **these numbers, plugged them into the new** 

### 10 **formulas for the Energy Department, and the** 

### 11 **new proposals for the Energy Star Department.** 

### 12 **Your numbers on average are 46 percent below** 

### 13 **allowable for Energy Star on solid door** 

### 14 **refrigerators. Glass door refrigerators, 43** 

### 15 **percent below. Solid door freezers, 49 percent** 

### 16 **below. Glass door freezers, 48 percent below** 

### 17 **what is proposed by Energy Star as a top of** 

### 18 **the line product.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Energy Star 3.** 

### 20 **MR. HON: 3, which is not due to** 

### 21 **come into effect for another year.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 304**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Several**  

### 2 **individuals wish to comment. I saw Don first,** 

### 3 **and I'm coming back to you.** 

### 4 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage,** 

### 5 **Southern Company. It's not reasonable to** 

### 6 **expect that Energy Star is not going to up** 

### 7 **their standards to go along with the 2017** 

### 8 **increase, because their standard procedure is** 

### 9 **to up the standards in response to this.** 

### 10 **I think it is reasonable to assume** 

### 11 **there's not a lot of room left to have an** 

### 12 **Energy Star program above the legal minimum if** 

### 13 **you do TSL4, so it would not be as large a** 

### 14 **program as today.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 16 **Jeff?** 

### 17 **MR. BAUMAN: Yes, I think the** 

### 18 **extension of what Charlie was saying also is** 

### 19 **that Energy Star would go away unless they** 

### 20 **change significantly a few standards the TSL4** 

### 21 **went into play, you'd have basic requirements** 

### 22 **that were below the Energy Star level, so**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 305**  **1 Energy Star would not exist if they didn't**  

### 2 **change what their standards were.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 4 **Yes?** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I think I have the** 

### 6 **solution here. So, when we did this analysis,** 

### 7 **so V3 we didn't know about. Right? V2, the** 

### 8 **market there already from the numbers, so I** 

### 9 **think what we need to do is rerun this with V3** 

### 10 **and compare it to the baseline, and put a** 

### 11 **number there.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. HON: We are very concerned** 

### 14 **because we just give you another set of** 

### 15 **numbers, the same basic criteria, what's the** 

### 16 **official energy acceptance level today versus** 

### 17 **what is the acceptance level under this** 

### 18 **proposal. We are looking at in the solid door** 

### 19 **refrigerators between 71 and 73 percent** 

### 20 **reduction in power. Glass door refrigerators,** 

### 21 **67-68 percent reduction in power. Solid door** 

### 22 **freezers, 68 percent reduction in power. Glass**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 306**  **1 door freezers, 71 percent reduction in power.**  

### 2 **We're not talking a small incremental -- a** 

### 3 **major would be 35 percent. When we're getting** 

### 4 **in the 70s and 71 percents, these are beyond** 

### 5 **the levels that we can cope with at this time** 

### 6 **because we're rethinking the entire thought** 

### 7 **pattern.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, and then back** 

### 9 **to Robert.** 

### 10 **MR. COUSINS: Okay. I know I'm only** 

### 11 **repeating myself. Earlier this morning I** 

### 12 **questioned the -- well, I look at what we are** 

### 13 **trying to accomplish when we're talking about** 

### 14 **what's technologically feasible. TSL4, based** 

### 15 **on what we found our company is not technology** 

### 16 **feasible. Let me rephrase that.** 

### 17 **You can achieve these numbers if** 

### 18 **you move away from pull-down applications, if** 

### 19 **you move away from trying to maintain health** 

### 20 **temperatures. I mean, you can hit these** 

### 21 **numbers if you decide you don't care what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 307**  **1 temperature the cabinet is. I mean, I don't**  

### 2 **see how you can achieve these numbers.** 

### 3 **What I see with our customers,** 

### 4 **we've gotten to a point with our customers** 

### 5 **where there's almost no contract that's** 

### 6 **written these days where Energy Star is not in** 

### 7 **that contract. Our customers demand it, and we** 

### 8 **see Energy Star as being a very effective,** 

### 9 **very successful and very effective voluntary** 

### 10 **program to move toward greater efficiency. So,** 

### 11 **that's one of the reasons why I find it hard** 

### 12 **to believe that there was no benefit that came** 

### 13 **in the analysis in this area.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Robert.** 

### 15 **MS. COUGHLIN: Yes, I'd like to** 

### 16 **just clarify. There's a definition issue here,** 

### 17 **because as Jon pointed out, yes, your** 

### 18 **customers love Energy Star. That's why the** 

### 19 **market was already there. So, it doesn't count** 

### 20 **as a new regulatory action, and there's no** 

### 21 **additional voluntary incentive, so that's why**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 308**  **1 it's coming out as not having an impact. They**  

### 2 **would need to --** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Based on the levels** 

### 4 **in Version 2.** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: Right.** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: It's because the** 

### 7 **saturation of the market is already there, so** 

### 8 **when we look at the snapshot in 2017, because** 

### 9 **your customers already require it, because** 

### 10 **they tell you they want you to build to it,** 

### 11 **you are already doing it. There's no delta** 

### 12 **there.** 

### 13 **Now, the answer will be different** 

### 14 **when we plug in Version 3.0. It will not be** 

### 15 **to the level the proposed standards are will** 

### 16 **be my guess, but it will be different because** 

### 17 **you're going back down to 24 percent, or** 

### 18 **whatever the number is. The saturation is much** 

### 19 **lower.** 

### 20 **MR. COUSINS: Yes, which is one of** 

### 21 **my points. Because there is concern around** 

### 22 **energy even with our customers.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 309**  **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.**  

### 2 **MR. COUSINS: Which has forced us** 

### 3 **to -- not just -- it's put us in the position** 

### 4 **where we strive to achieve purchasing** 

### 5 **equipment that's the most energy efficient as** 

### 6 **we can possibly get.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So, a** 

### 8 **question back to you would be, you are a** 

### 9 **purchaser of this equipment. You spec out what** 

### 10 **you want. If you had certain levels that you** 

### 11 **spec'd out on a voluntary basis, we could run** 

### 12 **an analysis on that, too.** 

### 13 **MR. COUSINS: Well, that's what I** 

### 14 **was just -- we have goals that we have** 

### 15 **publicly stated --** 

### 16 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, we would have** 

### 17 **to have that data to run -- you see what I'm** 

### 18 **saying? I mean, we could run it as a voluntary** 

### 19 **program because Coca-Cola is voluntarily** 

### 20 **saying I want these levels.** 

### 21 **MR. COUSINS: Well, it's not just** 

### 22 **us. I mean, everyone is saying they want**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 310**  **1 different levels. And it looks to me like none**  

### 2 **of it has been considered, so you're saying** 

### 3 **that everyone in the country has to** 

### 4 **voluntarily step up to the DOE and give this** 

### 5 **information to --** 

### 6 **MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no. I'm** 

### 7 **just saying, you know, if you would help us** 

### 8 **with that data, I think we could help improve** 

### 9 **our analysis. Correct?** 

### 10 **MR. COUSINS: Yes.** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it goes** 

### 12 **both ways.** 

### 13 **MR. COUSINS: Yes. And my point is** 

### 14 **this, and I've already repeated this several** 

### 15 **times. We have companies like mine that are** 

### 16 **trying to push this as far as we can possibly** 

### 17 **push it technologically. And just as Charlie** 

### 18 **mentioned, and I can't dispute his numbers,** 

### 19 **we're talking about a 60-something percent** 

### 20 **reduction from where we are now with the** 

### 21 **equipment that we purchase. My point is that I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 311**  **1 don't see this as being technologically**  

### 2 **feasible.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, just to** 

### 4 **clarify for the record, that was an exchange** 

### 5 **between Ashley and Steve. Now, back to Katie.** 

### 6 **Do you have additional commentary on that last** 

### 7 **slide, or are you moving on?** 

### 8 **MS. COUGHLIN: No, this is --** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: A couple of more --** 

### 10 **pardon me. Robert, please, go ahead.** 

### 11 **MR. WILKINS: I would like to start** 

### 12 **by commending the analysis. Now, there are a** 

### 13 **few points that we question, and put question** 

### 14 **mark on this or the other. And in my mind,** 

### 15 **TSL4, I've got a question mark. Is that** 

### 16 **practical to reach that or not? But no doubt,** 

### 17 **you'll go back based on the input provided** 

### 18 **today and reevaluate that, and come back with** 

### 19 **some judgment. So, to really build on what** 

### 20 **Steve said, I think that TSL4 line needs to be** 

### 21 **considered.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 312**  **1 I'd like to ask a policy question,**  

### 2 **not to the consultants, but open to all of us,** 

### 3 **or to DOE. I think there are two questions** 

### 4 **that should be asking ourselves, or deciding** 

### 5 **between. One is, and it seems to be today how** 

### 6 **far can we go in saving energy through** 

### 7 **regulation? That seems to be the question** 

### 8 **that's been on the table here. The other one,** 

### 9 **I would suggest instead or in place of, how** 

### 10 **can the U.S. save the most energy in** 

### 11 **commercial refrigeration in the least** 

### 12 **disruptive way? In other words, find a way to** 

### 13 **save the energy, not stepping down from that.** 

### 14 **So, I would suggest if it were the** 

### 15 **second answer, let's raise minimum standards,** 

### 16 **but let's raise them to a baseline level.** 

### 17 **Let's not stretch beyond the available** 

### 18 **technology that we have today. We don't have** 

### 19 **these compressors in the market. We've got a** 

### 20 **number of questions. So, maybe that means TSL2** 

### 21 **or 3, I don't know what it means, but that** 

### 22 **order of magnitude, and then do the other**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 313**  **1 things. Get behind EPA Energy Star, and**  

### 2 **collaborate with them, and push it, and** 

### 3 **promote it, and get the whole industry to do** 

### 4 **that.** 

### 5 **There was a question in here well,** 

### 6 **we can't get anything with government** 

### 7 **procurement. Why not? Why aren't we pursuing** 

### 8 **that, GSA, military commissaries use a lot of** 

### 9 **this kind of equipment. Why aren't we pursuing** 

### 10 **that?** 

### 11 **DOE did a fantastic job in the** 

### 12 **rooftop challenge a year or two ago, and five** 

### 13 **manufacturers stepped forward with very high** 

### 14 **efficiency rooftop units. Why don't we do** 

### 15 **something like that? Why don't we do something** 

### 16 **creative in a collaborative approach and** 

### 17 **really focus on saving energy? I think we** 

### 18 **could get just as much, if not more, and have** 

### 19 **wholehearted support behind it. Thank you.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe Sanders has a** 

### 21 **comment. Joe, unmute your line and speak** 

### 22 **clearly.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 314**  **1 MR. SANDERS: This is Joe Sanders.**  

### 2 **–My comment was, using the EPA website as a** 

### 3 **certified group of data, most manufacturers,** 

### 4 **the industry as a whole, you have to redesign** 

### 5 **95 percent of all the models available for** 

### 6 **sale currently, plus 95 percent. And my** 

### 7 **question along with redesigning all those** 

### 8 **models, all these companies, are there** 

### 9 **resources available? Meaning if we design a** 

### 10 **cabinet has to go through UL, has to go** 

### 11 **through NSF, has to go through this energy** 

### 12 **consumption testing, we have to validate** 

### 13 **compressors and a whole host of things. Is** 

### 14 **this going to happen in three years?** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?** 

### 16 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. The** 

### 17 **Department knows that I am a pusher and a** 

### 18 **supporter of energy efficiency. I've been in** 

### 19 **lots of meetings with them and tried, and** 

### 20 **tried, and tried to get consistency and know -** 

### 21 **- and giving them information about ways to** 

### 22 **get high efficiency equipment. But what's not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 315**  **1 being considered here is that there is more**  

### 2 **than just energy efficiency involvement here,** 

### 3 **because if you take a home refrigerator and** 

### 4 **you take a commercial refrigerator, the** 

### 5 **commercial refrigerator at this time is** 

### 6 **allotted approximately 4.4 times the power** 

### 7 **consumption for the same internal volume. And** 

### 8 **that is because of the service that we do. We** 

### 9 **do not sell a home refrigerator because it is** 

### 10 **not capable of meeting the demands of constant** 

### 11 **door openings, NSF standards, and other** 

### 12 **things. So, if you tell me that you want to** 

### 13 **take 30 percent out of the market, 30 percent** 

### 14 **efficiency, I can easily see that happening. I** 

### 15 **see 70 percent, 73 percent. I have real** 

### 16 **problem with that because we cannot then** 

### 17 **guarantee food safety, because right now we've** 

### 18 **gone through and we've done an analysis of all** 

### 19 **of our products adding all the standard things** 

### 20 **that you brought up. We might have one product** 

### 21 **in the market.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 316**  **1 MR. BAUMAN: Getting back to the**  

### 2 **original part of the discussion, and the --** 

### 3 **when we were discussing voluntary energy** 

### 4 **efficiency rather than regulatory, and I** 

### 5 **appreciate DOE being able to look at Version 3** 

### 6 **of Energy Star, which manufacturers have** 

### 7 **already expressed concerned to EPA in regards** 

### 8 **to the levels being proposed. But I think it's** 

### 9 **still a flaw to not consider Energy Star in** 

### 10 **the impact because again, I don't think EPA** 

### 11 **would be too happy to just go away from an** 

### 12 **Energy Star program in this category. Maybe** 

### 13 **they would, but my expectation would be by** 

### 14 **2017 they would come out with levels that are** 

### 15 **even lower, and are going to make** 

### 16 **manufacturers look at even higher efficiencies** 

### 17 **than whatever the DOE targets are. So,I don't** 

### 18 **expect EPA to just let that go away for our** 

### 19 **product category. And, again, as Charlie** 

### 20 **mentioned, as people mentioned, and Steve** 

### 21 **mentioned, government installations, they** 

### 22 **specify it's got to be an Energy Star product**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 317**  **1 and things, so I think there's either going to**  

### 2 **be a big re-education of some end-users,** 

### 3 **again, or letting the EPA Energy Star program** 

### 4 **go away for this product category, or it's** 

### 5 **going to put additional burden on** 

### 6 **manufacturers.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 8 **MR. McHUGH: Jon McHugh. I think** 

### 9 **that what we've heard here a number of times** 

### 10 **is that, in general, the measures that you** 

### 11 **guys have looked at is really not the issue.** 

### 12 **The question is the numbers that they have to** 

### 13 **live with, and there really needs to be some** 

### 14 **kind of reconciliation between the numbers and** 

### 15 **the model.** 

### 16 **So, I would ask the question, you** 

### 17 **know, I assume there's going to be some** 

### 18 **additional follow-up with the manufacturers** 

### 19 **and various market participants about the** 

### 20 **acceptability of different measures. And also** 

### 21 **asking that question, okay, of all these** 

### 22 **acceptable measures, when you put them**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 318**  **1 together, what do they actually look like in**  

### 2 **terms of the numbers? And, to me, that seems** 

### 3 **to be the crux of all the talking back and** 

### 4 **forth about what's achievable or not.** 

### 5 **Now, I have access to- actually,** 

### 6 **anybody has access to – the California Energy** 

### 7 **Commission database for equipment.** 

### 8 **Unfortunately, it's not fully populated.** 

### 9 **Ideally, in the future DOE will actually have** 

### 10 **a fully populated database by everybody, and** 

### 11 **we won't actually be guessing what the market** 

### 12 **looks like because we'd actually have the** 

### 13 **data. So, this is something that really should** 

### 14 **happen for all the products because DOE is** 

### 15 **supposed to be updating their standards, and** 

### 16 **what better thing to use than actually the** 

### 17 **full population rather than I've got my small** 

### 18 **telescope that I'm looking at some tiny** 

### 19 **fraction of the market.** 

### 20 **But just to go back to the issue** 

### 21 **with Energy Star because, you know, they're** 

### 22 **somewhat captive to making sure that there's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 319**  **1 enough products that people participate. And**  

### 2 **just as an example, if you look at, was it** 

### 3 **vertical transparent cases, self-contained th**  

### 4 **compressors, medium temperature, the 50** 

### 5 **percentile in the California database is one** 

### 6 **half of the federal standard, so it's not like** 

### 7 **that there's not a bunch of head room. The** 

### 8 **question is, well, is it 50 percent versus 72** 

### 9 **percent, or whatever the number is? So, I** 

### 10 **think we need to get back to what are the real** 

### 11 **values. I mean, obviously, some people have** 

### 12 **tested, they have published to some fraction** 

### 13 **the database, and we could talk until we're** 

### 14 **blue in the face, but somehow we've got to say** 

### 15 **okay, what are the measures that are** 

### 16 **reasonable, and what do they really consume?** 

### 17 **Thanks.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: I possibly shouldn't** 

### 20 **say this, but I will anyway. I want to clarify** 

### 21 **that the Department does not ignore the** 

### 22 **existence of Energy Star. The existence of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 320**  **1 Energy Star affects our base case distribution**  

### 2 **of efficiencies. So, it's really, you know, in** 

### 3 **some sense the definition of what constitutes** 

### 4 **a new regulatory action or a new voluntary** 

### 5 **program that's at issue here.** 

### 6 **MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman. I** 

### 7 **just want to ask for clarification then on** 

### 8 **that, because I think that's how this issue** 

### 9 **got brought up initially, is when Charlie or** 

### 10 **people saw the zero impact new regulatory, and** 

### 11 **zero involuntary. That, to me, as I said** 

### 12 **previously, Energy Star would have no impact** 

### 13 **on this. I think that was the original** 

### 14 **question. And then our impression was that** 

### 15 **yes, it was for reasons of whatever, it was** 

### 16 **ignored, or it did not have any impact. I** 

### 17 **think that's the question that we're going** 

### 18 **back to on this.** 

### 19 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So, let's try it** 

### 20 **again.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 321**  **1 MR. CYMBALSKY: In the baseline**  

### 2 **there's a distribution of efficiencies which** 

### 3 **includes Energy Star. So, as Charlie pointed** 

### 4 **out, it's at 60 plus percent in Version 2,** 

### 5 **which is what we were working off of when we** 

### 6 **did this analysis. So, when you do the Reg** 

### 7 **Flex and you look at Version 2, the fact that** 

### 8 **everyone has already moved there, 62 percent,** 

### 9 **there's no impact of that program Version 2.** 

### 10 **So, what we're going to do is go back and** 

### 11 **estimate what the impact of Version 3 is. That** 

### 12 **number will be non-zero when you see it again.** 

### 13 **In the baseline when we go to** 

### 14 **measure the standard, the shipment** 

### 15 **efficiencies reflecting Energy Star Version 2** 

### 16 **are in the baseline, so what we're comparing** 

### 17 **is our standard versus the market which** 

### 18 **includes 62 market share for Energy Star** 

### 19 **Version 2, so that's the delta we're working** 

### 20 **off. Does that make sense?** 

### 21 **MR. BAUMAN: Yes, and I appreciate** 

### 22 **the clarification, John. My question would be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 322**  **1 did DOE or in the new regulatory, do you**  

### 2 **consider the fact that under the standards, if** 

### 3 **your standard is lower than what an Energy** 

### 4 **Star standard is now, that Energy Star would** 

### 5 **then be expected to come back and create new** 

### 6 **voluntary or regulatory action that would** 

### 7 **affect manufacturers.** 

### 8 **MR. WILKINS: Yes. In other words,** 

### 9 **Energy Star is not static, it's dynamic.** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I understand, but** 

### 11 **that's not a regulatory burden.** 

### 12 **MR. BAUMAN: Voluntary is also on** 

### 13 **there as zero, so that's again where I'm** 

### 14 **coming --** 

### 15 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Again, we're going** 

### 16 **to redo this number --** 

### 17 **MR. BAUMAN: Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. CYMBALSKY: It will be non-zero** 

### 19 **for Version 3. Okay? However, I do want to** 

### 20 **point out, Energy Star has sunsetted many a** 

### 21 **product. Right? I'm not saying what's going to** 

### 22 **happen in 2017. I can tell you right now, if I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 323**  **1 do my job really good, and hopefully I do, you**  

### 2 **know, nothing against Energy Star, but what I** 

### 3 **do does compete with what they do. And if we** 

### 4 **make a mandatory standard high enough that** 

### 5 **Energy Star doesn't need to exist for that** 

### 6 **product, I mean, so be it. They sunset the** 

### 7 **product. They've done it before. Will it** 

### 8 **happen here? I don't know. I'm not saying yes,** 

### 9 **and --** 

### 10 **MR. THOMPSON: A question is, if** 

### 11 **you do that, then are you saying in the market** 

### 12 **there will be no differentiation based on** 

### 13 **energy for any customer at that point? It's a** 

### 14 **one-stop shop energy, deal with it.** 

### 15 **MR. CYMBALSKY: There are plenty of** 

### 16 **products like that now. Electric furnaces is a** 

### 17 **one-stop shop.** 

### 18 **MR. THOMPSON: So, we're comparing** 

### 19 **commercial refrigeration to electric furnaces?** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I am not. I'm just** 

### 21 **making a point, that that exists in the market** 

### 22 **today.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 324**  **1 MR. THOMPSON: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. My** 

### 3 **concern is we have two totally different** 

### 4 **government agencies working from different** 

### 5 **basic database information. You did** 

### 6 **Engineering Analysis on some of the possible** 

### 7 **add-ons to the systems. Energy Star just** 

### 8 **looked at the market as a whole and** 

### 9 **statistical numbers on energy efficiency of** 

### 10 **the products in the market today. And yet,** 

### 11 **actually, the regulatory activities are** 

### 12 **crossing over each other, the comment periods** 

### 13 **were still open for their comment period to** 

### 14 **your comment period, and yet you come up with** 

### 15 **a minimum efficiency almost 50 percent lower** 

### 16 **than theirs, which is supposedly a premium** 

### 17 **efficiency within a few months of data** 

### 18 **crossover. That's what bothers, I think, the** 

### 19 **industry as a whole.** 

### 20 **If you had come back and said you** 

### 21 **want to come back and hit these Energy Star** 

### 22 **numbers two years after they're effective from**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 325**  **1 2015 to 2017, a lot of the industry would have**  

### 2 **gone oh, this is horrible, but you would have** 

### 3 **definite statistical evidence to show that it** 

### 4 **could be done. This one, I don't know about** 

### 5 **it.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.** 

### 7 **MR. COUSINS: We're having a** 

### 8 **discussion and we're looking at this in** 

### 9 **isolation when in reality there are other** 

### 10 **things that are happening. There's the** 

### 11 **reasoned expression of NGOs around commercial** 

### 12 **refrigeration. There's the GreenChill program.** 

### 13 **There's the EPA industry initiative. I mean,** 

### 14 **there are a lot of voluntary programs, some** 

### 15 **pseudo regulatory programs and voluntary** 

### 16 **programs that are affecting commercial** 

### 17 **refrigeration. And I don't see any of that** 

### 18 **being taken into consideration in the work** 

### 19 **that's been done on this NOPR.** 

### 20 **We, as a company, have demands** 

### 21 **placed on us by other agencies in government.** 

### 22 **Yes, we want to do what's right by energy, but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 326**  **1 we also want to do what's right by the**  

### 2 **environment. So, I would just like to see** 

### 3 **everything taken into consideration when** 

### 4 **standards are set.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Are we ready** 

### 6 **to move on? I think we're ready to move on.** 

### 7 **Yes? Final comment.** 

### 8 **MR. MOORE: Frank Moore, NAFEM. So,** 

### 9 **just to get clarification on what -- because I** 

### 10 **think I hear what you're saying about the** 

### 11 **impact of Energy Star, but to get** 

### 12 **clarification on the zero there for voluntary** 

### 13 **energy efficiency targets, what -- is it** 

### 14 **correct to interpret that to mean that the** 

### 15 **Department on its own determined that it could** 

### 16 **come up with no voluntary energy alternatives** 

### 17 **to this rule? And, therefore, that's why the** 

### 18 **zero is there.** 

### 19 **MS. COUGHLIN: No.** 

### 20 **MR. MOORE: It does not mean that?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 327**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: No. The Department**  

### 2 **looks at existing voluntary programs to assess** 

### 3 **their effectiveness.** 

### 4 **MR. MOORE: But in terms of the --** 

### 5 **MS. COUGHLIN: So, the Department** 

### 6 **is not --** 

### 7 **MR. MOORE: -- Reg Flex,** 

### 8 **Regulatory Flexibility Act requirements, and I** 

### 9 **think this gentleman had mentioned that** 

### 10 **earlier, that the Department's responsibility** 

### 11 **to look to alternatives, among the** 

### 12 **alternatives it looked to before it** 

### 13 **promulgated this rule did not include any** 

### 14 **voluntary programs? Is that why there's a zero** 

### 15 **there?** 

### 16 **MS. COUGHLIN: No.** 

### 17 **MR. MOORE: Okay.** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: It's that the** 

### 19 **voluntary programs are essentially in the** 

### 20 **baseline. The voluntary programs the** 

### 21 **Department considered at the time --** 

### 22 **MR. MOORE: I got that part but --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 328**  **1 MS. COUGHLIN: -- had already been**  

### 2 **incorporated into --** 

### 3 **MR. MOORE: Any new voluntary** 

### 4 **programs that would be on Alternative 2, this** 

### 5 **proposed rule.** 

### 6 **MS. COUGHLIN: The Department, I** 

### 7 **believe, does not construct hypothetical** 

### 8 **voluntary programs for this analysis.** 

### 9 **MR. MOORE: Alright.** 

### 10 **MS. COUGHLIN: It just looks at** 

### 11 **what's on the horizon.** 

### 12 **MR. MOORE: Okay. I'm just trying** 

### 13 **to get clarification on that.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. MOORE: Thank you.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now we're** 

### 17 **moving on. Right? Okay. Yes?** 

### 18 **MS. COUGHLIN: Okay. So, the next** 

### 19 **few slides are simply a description of the** 

### 20 **TSL4 results. I don't think --** 

### 21 **MR. CYMBALSKY: You want to read** 

### 22 **them all?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 329**  **1 (Laughter.)**  

### 2 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Charlie has already** 

### 3 **calculated the number --** 

### 4 **MS. COUGHLIN: This is the** 

### 5 **equations that describe how the efficiency** 

### 6 **level will scale with total display area. Yes,** 

### 7 **I don't think we want to comment on that.** 

### 8 **So, in terms of the numbers, the** 

### 9 **raw numbers, so the cumulative energy savings** 

### 10 **that we're currently predicting, again, given** 

### 11 **this baseline which includes a fairly high** 

### 12 **level of efficiency in the baseline, the** 

### 13 **cumulative energy savings from TSL 4 about one** 

### 14 **quad over the analysis period. The cumulative** 

### 15 **NPV is 1.6 billion at a 7 percent discount** 

### 16 **rate, and 4.1 at 3 percent.** 

### 17 **So, for the most part, life-cycle** 

### 18 **cost savings are positive, and payback periods** 

### 19 **are under five years, which means, again, to** 

### 20 **the best that we can model in this analysis** 

### 21 **for the consumer, the standard is favorable.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 330**  **1 The environmental benefits**  

### 2 **primarily in the form of CO2 reductions are** 

### 3 **about 55 million metric tons, and depending on** 

### 4 **the Social Cost of Carbon and the discount** 

### 5 **rate that you use, those scale between .3 and** 

### 6 **4.6 billion in avoided damages.** 

### 7 **I think this is the last issue to** 

### 8 **discuss. This is where you input, again, would** 

### 9 **be very useful. So, we've discussed the issue** 

### 10 **of doing all this in three years. There is a** 

### 11 **sort of statutory guideline about the lapse of** 

### 12 **time between the promulgation of the standard** 

### 13 **and the compliance date, but it's not written** 

### 14 **in stone. So, under certain special conditions** 

### 15 **DOE can consider extending the length of time** 

### 16 **between the passage of the rule and the** 

### 17 **compliance date.** 

### 18 **For this analysis, the compliance** 

### 19 **date is assumed to be three years after the** 

### 20 **passage of the rule. If people wish to submit** 

### 21 **comments about why, and what other compliance**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 331**  **1 dates they feel would be more appropriate, you**  

### 2 **can do that.** 

### 3 **Apart from the policy decision, we** 

### 4 **can model a later compliance date. And,** 

### 5 **generally, in order to inform the policy** 

### 6 **decision people like to know what happens to** 

### 7 **energy savings if you push compliance out** 

### 8 **another five years. So, if stakeholders want** 

### 9 **to submit suggestions for later compliance** 

### 10 **dates, we can include those in the modeling.** 

### 11 **That's it.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here on** 

### 13 **compliance date? Harvey Sachs.** 

### 14 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and** 

### 15 **someone asked me earlier what the advocates** 

### 16 **typically felt about this. And the answer to** 

### 17 **that as a generalization, is that we try to** 

### 18 **look at cumulative energy savings, which for** 

### 19 **consumer products is typically said that** 

### 20 **there's a tradeoff between a compliance** 

### 21 **deadline and the stringency of the standard.** 

### 22 **Of course, increasingly we're recognizing that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 332**  **1 stringency of standards on single DOE metric**  

### 2 **may not have real close relationship to actual** 

### 3 **field energy savings, but the generalization,** 

### 4 **very much like Katie has suggested, is there** 

### 5 **is a tradeoff between annual energy savings** 

### 6 **and compliance date. But I certainly left** 

### 7 **feeling that I'm reeling from more information** 

### 8 **than I possibly could assimilate in a day in** 

### 9 **terms of what the proposed rules say and how** 

### 10 **it all interacts with everything else that's** 

### 11 **on the table. Thank you.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. Tim** 

### 13 **Ballo.** 

### 14 **MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo. Just one** 

### 15 **thing to keep in mind on the issue of the** 

### 16 **compliance date, that it's not just 2017** 

### 17 **versus 2019, it's 2023 versus 2025, as we go** 

### 18 **through the next six-year review. And I know** 

### 19 **there's a lot happening in this industry right** 

### 20 **now with alternative refrigerants and it might** 

### 21 **be helpful to think about in 2020, 2021, how** 

### 22 **settled are things going to be with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 333**  **1 alternative refrigerants, and how is that**  

### 2 **going to impact the next round of analysis,** 

### 3 **and what sort of certainty will we have?** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Jeff.** 

### 5 **MR. BAUMAN: I will not comment on** 

### 6 **this. I think from our standpoint usually, as** 

### 7 **Jon and Ash, we love the pushback, because** 

### 8 **sometimes where we think it's appropriate** 

### 9 **pushback test dates, and we've had some** 

### 10 **discussions with Harvey about this earlier,** 

### 11 **too. I think even from our standpoint, you** 

### 12 **know, your crystal ball gets blurrier as it** 

### 13 **goes further out, obviously. And when we talk** 

### 14 **about things like compressors and components** 

### 15 **that are based on theoretical, that maybe they** 

### 16 **would be available by 2017, and maybe if we** 

### 17 **stress that point on pushing the date out,** 

### 18 **maybe some of those features would be more** 

### 19 **feasible at that point. But I have less faith** 

### 20 **in the crystal ball, I think, and potentially** 

### 21 **some others. I would rather hold a closer** 

### 22 **date, and as Harvey said, you know, get an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 334**  **1 impact and see a number that is achievable**  

### 2 **based on current technologies that we can come** 

### 3 **to agreement on.** 

### 4 **And I think, again, you've heard a** 

### 5 **lot around here with concerns on** 

### 6 **manufacturers, but I also think manufacturers** 

### 7 **are not trying to walk away from this or** 

### 8 **anything. I don't think we've done that on any** 

### 9 **of the proposals that are out there. We want** 

### 10 **continue to make better products, more** 

### 11 **efficient, be competitive, get the energy** 

### 12 **savings within a reasonable time so they can** 

### 13 **hit it. And I would rather see, what we would** 

### 14 **consider more feasible numbers, and be less** 

### 15 **worried about the timeline, and more worried** 

### 16 **about getting numbers that are achievable** 

### 17 **within a three-year period.** 

### 18 **MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Jeff,** 

### 19 **one clarification. I don't know what the right** 

### 20 **numbers are. I'm fully prepared to put you on** 

### 21 **the rack, but not stretch much.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 335**  **1 MR. CYMBALSKY: I guess, you know,**  

### 2 **based on what was in the proposal and what's** 

### 3 **been said today, we've proposed TSL4. Did you** 

### 4 **have a TSL in mind based on all the numbers: I** 

### 5 **mean, Steve and Charlie have mostly carried** 

### 6 **the weight here in terms of throwing** 

### 7 **percentages out from where you are today. Does** 

### 8 **it line up to anything that you've seen here** 

### 9 **with our equations, or --** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.** 

### 11 **MR. COUSINS: When you get numbers** 

### 12 **from us, they'll be numbers representative of** 

### 13 **what we think the best technology will provide** 

### 14 **today, as well as numbers from what we're** 

### 15 **purchasing today, so I won't answer the** 

### 16 **question with specific numbers now, but I'll** 

### 17 **give you information that will help to answer** 

### 18 **that question.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Don Brundage.** 

### 20 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage,** 

### 21 **Southern Company. I'm not a manufacturer, I'm** 

### 22 **a utility, but general philosophy: the way you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 336**  **1 define TSL3 and TSL4, TSL4 is really not cost**  

### 2 **effective. You're saying you maximize the** 

### 3 **benefits of TSL3, and TSL4 is what comes out** 

### 4 **to be positive net present value compared to** 

### 5 **the current standard level. That means that if** 

### 6 **your standard level was already at TSL3, you** 

### 7 **would lose money by going to TSL4. It's purely** 

### 8 **a function of where your baseline current** 

### 9 **standard is. That would be like saying if the** 

### 10 **current residential air conditioner standard** 

### 11 **were still SEER 10, you could justify going to** 

### 12 **SEER 15 or 16 instead of 14. So, I don't** 

### 13 **really think philosophically across the** 

### 14 **different rulemakings that TSL4 as you defined** 

### 15 **it is in the best interest of society. Thank** 

### 16 **you.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce.** 

### 18 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Bruce Hierlmeier.** 

### 19 **I think one of the issues is we see the** 

### 20 **numbers aren't right. I mean, it's not the** 

### 21 **technologies, it's that when you add them all** 

### 22 **up, we're not going to save 64 percent on a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 337**  **1 cooler by slapping on a three-pane glass door.**  

### 2 **I mean, we can slap on a door, we can spend a** 

### 3 **couple of million dollars and put another** 

### 4 **half-inch of foam on our fixtures. We can put** 

### 5 **some light sensors on. We're not going to save** 

### 6 **64 percent, so we think the underlying** 

### 7 **engineering is wrong. That's the key. You** 

### 8 **know, it's like the last time around, we** 

### 9 **didn't have the sense at the last rulemaking** 

### 10 **that the numbers are wrong. If you want to** 

### 11 **force customers into using this type of** 

### 12 **technology, at least the underlying numbers** 

### 13 **are correct. You would save money, or save** 

### 14 **energy by going to an Argon-filled door. We** 

### 15 **could agree on that value of savings. These** 

### 16 **numbers don't look right.** 

### 17 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So, we will provide** 

### 18 **the spreadsheet, short answer to that one, and** 

### 19 **everyone could play with it, put in their** 

### 20 **numbers and see if, in fact, what you said is** 

### 21 **backed up by the spreadsheet.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 338**  **1 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I**  

### 2 **agree with Bruce. There are lots of issues** 

### 3 **here as far as the underlying numbers. I just** 

### 4 **pointed out a few of them in one of the** 

### 5 **earlier slides where we were looking at a** 

### 6 **magnitude of three to four times the volume** 

### 7 **being sold, what you've included in your** 

### 8 **numbers. And that's a pretty solid estimate.** 

### 9 **It could be more than that. That's what we're** 

### 10 **aware of.** 

### 11 **MR. CYMBALSKY: That's good** 

### 12 **information, and I hope that the comments you** 

### 13 **can provide and any data you can provide to** 

### 14 **help us with our Shipment --** 

### 15 **MR. HON: That's a very difficult** 

### 16 **thing, because a lot of our customers do not** 

### 17 **wish to have their sales data given out. And** 

### 18 **that'll be a difficult one.** 

### 19 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I mean, we honestly** 

### 20 **don't care who you're selling it to.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 339**  **1 MR. HON: I know that, but there's**  

### 2 **issues of private ownership companies, as** 

### 3 **well.** 

### 4 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, okay.** 

### 5 **MR. HON: Because of market** 

### 6 **positioning, and things like that. It's a** 

### 7 **difficult thing we're looking at here. But do** 

### 8 **I believe the industry as a whole can achieve** 

### 9 **a great deal of what that carbon savings that** 

### 10 **is out there? Yes, I believe that we can. Do I** 

### 11 **believe we can cut the power consumption on** 

### 12 **these products a substantial amount? Yes, I** 

### 13 **do. I've been a proponent of that, but there** 

### 14 **comes a point when you can't do all the things** 

### 15 **at one time, because we're looking at changing** 

### 16 **fixtures in our foam structure here, adding** 

### 17 **more foam, thicker walls, more insulation.** 

### 18 **You know, if we want to look at** 

### 19 **vacuum panels, we drive the cost up** 

### 20 **astronomically. If we don't look at vacuum** 

### 21 **panels, we don't get enough insulation to make** 

### 22 **a major impact into the energy efficiency. So,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 340**  **1 millions of dollars would be involved in**  

### 2 **changing foam fixtures for us alone, because** 

### 3 **there are that many of them, and they are very** 

### 4 **costly to remake. And depends on which type of** 

### 5 **foam you run. If you run certain types of** 

### 6 **foam, it's ambient temperature, and the** 

### 7 **fixture modification is minimal. It is costly,** 

### 8 **but it it can be done. If you're running other** 

### 9 **types of foam where you have to have a heated** 

### 10 **fixture, fixtures can be several hundred** 

### 11 **thousand dollars a piece, and modification of** 

### 12 **a fixture for that could be $40-50,000 change** 

### 13 **per item. And we have multiples of these, so** 

### 14 **then you start looking at okay, we have to** 

### 15 **discuss an alternate compressor, which means** 

### 16 **we discuss an alternate compressor, tubing,** 

### 17 **evaporators, fans all have to be balanced. So,** 

### 18 **now we have four or five hundred base products** 

### 19 **that take months to redesign.** 

### 20 **MR. COUSINS: Consider all** 

### 21 **refrigerants when you do that --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 341**  **1 MR. HON: Yes. So, we have to**  

### 2 **consider existing today refrigerants,** 

### 3 **refrigerants that are on the books as** 

### 4 **supposedly viable in the very near future for** 

### 5 **low carbon footprinting. And we have hundreds** 

### 6 **of products to do this on. This is eating the** 

### 7 **whole elephant in one bite. It'll usually** 

### 8 **choke you to death.** 

### 9 **MR. COUSINS: What I struggle with** 

### 10 **when I look at the numbers, and I ask myself** 

### 11 **does this pass the straight face test is when,** 

### 12 **for example, I look at these TSL4 numbers for** 

### 13 **pull-down units versus maintenance temperature** 

### 14 **units, and I see that the numbers allow a** 

### 15 **maintenance unit to consume much more energy** 

### 16 **than a pull-down unit. You know, there's** 

### 17 **something that's not right there. I know there** 

### 18 **was a great deal of analysis that took place,** 

### 19 **but intuitively, that just doesn't make any** 

### 20 **sense.** 

### 21 **I think these numbers really need** 

### 22 **to be looked at again, and not just looked at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 342**  **1 from an analytical perspective, but from a**  

### 2 **practical perspective.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Steve.** 

### 4 **Charlie.** 

### 5 **MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden,** 

### 6 **Air Conditioning Contractors of America. I** 

### 7 **think there's a lot of people who have a stake** 

### 8 **here that aren't in the room, and we've heard** 

### 9 **that restaurant folks, chain gas stations,** 

### 10 **supermarkets, small supermarkets. You know,** 

### 11 **our members are a lot of small businesses, and** 

### 12 **I mean small businesses, but they do service,** 

### 13 **they do sell, install with air quotes this** 

### 14 **equipment. Their customers, ultimately, have** 

### 15 **to pay for this equipment.** 

### 16 **So, what I would recommend is -** 

### 17 **since it's not too late – we still have** 

### 18 **another step in this process. I think that it** 

### 19 **would be beneficial, even if it's just for** 

### 20 **anecdotal information, to reach out to the** 

### 21 **Restaurant Association, perhaps NFIB or the** 

### 22 **Franchise Association; they represent a lot of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 343**  **1 franchisees. I think the chain gas stations,**  

### 2 **and I can't remember the acronym or the name** 

### 3 **of that association.** 

### 4 **NACS, yes. And I think they have** 

### 5 **something to say because, ultimately, they're** 

### 6 **the ones buying it. The manufacturers do care** 

### 7 **what happens to this equipment after it leaves** 

### 8 **their loading dock because, ultimately, if no** 

### 9 **one is going to buy it , if my members aren't** 

### 10 **going to install it or buy it, we will see** 

### 11 **cases where the end-user elects to maintain,** 

### 12 **repair instead of buying new equipment. And,** 

### 13 **ultimately, the 1.001 quad number won't be** 

### 14 **achieved.** 

### 15 **So, with the time that we have in** 

### 16 **the comment period, and if the consultants or** 

### 17 **whoever can reach out, I think that would be** 

### 18 **helpful, again, even if it's just anecdotal** 

### 19 **information. Thanks.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, I think we've** 

### 21 **made the transition now, and I think we're** 

### 22 **getting closing remarks. So, let's finish**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 344**  **1 closing remarks, and I'm going to hand out the**  

### 2 **evaluation forms. Please take a minute, that's** 

### 3 **all it takes, to fill these out, and let's** 

### 4 **hear from anybody that hasn't done so already,** 

### 5 **closing remarks. Aniruddh.** 

### 6 **MR. ROY: More of a question. John** 

### 7 **just mentioned that the spreadsheet will be** 

### 8 **made available to us. Would DOE consider maybe** 

### 9 **extending the comment period by a few days so** 

### 10 **that manufacturers can review it, and provide** 

### 11 **substantive comments? I know you're already** 

### 12 **under the gun with respect to the deadline,** 

### 13 **but we'd really appreciate an extension, if** 

### 14 **possible.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Robert.** 

### 16 **MR. WILKINS: Just to reiterate** 

### 17 **what I think everybody around this table has** 

### 18 **said. We all support energy efficiency** 

### 19 **improvements in this market sector, and we all** 

### 20 **believe that significant improvements can be** 

### 21 **made, so we support DOE on this effort.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 345**  **1 What I've heard is a lot of**  

### 2 **questions about some of the assumptions that** 

### 3 **are in TSL4. The difference between TSL3 and** 

### 4 **TSL4 is very small, about 10 percent. So, I** 

### 5 **would urge, let's get these questions answered** 

### 6 **by TSL regarding the technologies that are in** 

### 7 **TSL4, but let's get a solution that we are** 

### 8 **comfortable we can work with and get** 

### 9 **implemented, and do it within the time frame** 

### 10 **that's been proposed, and you'll have strong** 

### 11 **industry support. So, I'd urge just some** 

### 12 **pragmatism in this, and then let's complement** 

### 13 **it by doing some of the other voluntary things** 

### 14 **on there, and industry will support you in** 

### 15 **doing that. If there is an increment of** 

### 16 **difference between 3 and 4, we'll make it up.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mary?** 

### 18 **MS. DANE: I'm kind of going by** 

### 19 **some of the other comments, but we think** 

### 20 **there's been a lot of questions raised about** 

### 21 **the assumptions that were used to come up with** 

### 22 **the numbers. And I believe that it really**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 346**  **1 warrants, if it's possible to slow down this**  

### 2 **process, at least because you have an** 

### 3 **aggressive date with your final rule. And** 

### 4 **there are so many things that need to be** 

### 5 **reevaluated that we hope the Department might** 

### 6 **slow down some of the speed at which they're** 

### 7 **going to this. And like Robert brought up, you** 

### 8 **know, if we could get some answers to those** 

### 9 **questions, if we could get some of these** 

### 10 **assumptions cleared up and there'd be a little** 

### 11 **more data that we can go back and actually** 

### 12 **recreate in our own companies, that would be** 

### 13 **very helpful to us. Thank you.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jeff.** 

### 15 **MR. BAUMAN: I just want to say a** 

### 16 **couple of things, how much we appreciate as** 

### 17 **manufacturers being able to sit in a room with** 

### 18 **the Department of Energy and that people you** 

### 19 **have dedicated to this, and being a part of** 

### 20 **the discussion with you. Sometimes when you go** 

### 21 **through things in writing and provide written** 

### 22 **comments and such, it can be difficult. We hit**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 347**  **1 on different issues that maybe we didn't even**  

### 2 **consider when you're reading through several** 

### 3 **hundred pages of documentation, so we really** 

### 4 **appreciate being heard, and I think honestly** 

### 5 **discussing items.** 

### 6 **I would encourage, again based on,** 

### 7 **we've had some discussions about the deadline** 

### 8 **also. I think manufacturers and the numbers of** 

### 9 **issues that are here are going to have I'll** 

### 10 **say a tough time going into too much detail on** 

### 11 **some of the issues. I think my goal would be** 

### 12 **to make sure I hit at least a point on** 

### 13 **everything that I think is a concern or an** 

### 14 **item to be raised.** 

### 15 **I surely see that after that point** 

### 16 **there's going to be additional work that DOE** 

### 17 **will be doing. I encourage them to bring** 

### 18 **manufacturers into that process, the groups** 

### 19 **that are involved in that process. I think** 

### 20 **using a negotiated working group or negotiated** 

### 21 **rulemaking for the certification and** 

### 22 **compliance was very beneficial from a lot of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 348**  **1 different ways. I don't know how those things**  

### 2 **progress, but that seems like it would be a** 

### 3 **possibility for something like this with as** 

### 4 **many issues as there are, not that I would** 

### 5 **look forward to spending every two weeks back** 

### 6 **in D.C. again, but I think that whether it's** 

### 7 **our company or other companies, that is an** 

### 8 **excellent way to get issues discussed across** 

### 9 **the table and openly, and be able to do the** 

### 10 **type of analysis and get the issues worked** 

### 11 **through. So, again, just appreciate DOE** 

### 12 **hearing us out on this.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Charlie.** 

### 14 **MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I** 

### 15 **want to thank you for having this process, but** 

### 16 **as an industry whole, I am sure, because I** 

### 17 **know there are certain people in the industry** 

### 18 **who are very, very tight on their budgets, and** 

### 19 **fear any change whatsoever because of** 

### 20 **increased burden of cost, up front cost versus** 

### 21 **profitability today. That's going to happen,** 

### 22 **but there are also plenty of us in this room,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 349**  **1 and you know that we exist after lots of**  

### 2 **meetings through the past, that are very** 

### 3 **strong believers in energy efficiency as a** 

### 4 **theme that we believe in and want to support.** 

### 5 **And we truly do want to make products that** 

### 6 **meet high standards of efficiency, but we also** 

### 7 **have other things that we have even more** 

### 8 **concerning to us, is product safety, because** 

### 9 **when we're talking of food stuffs, we're** 

### 10 **talking major health issues. And we will not** 

### 11 **compromise on those points, so we are going to** 

### 12 **say okay, what can we do and guarantee that** 

### 13 **all the niche sections of the market can meet** 

### 14 **the standard, make the standard reasonably** 

### 15 **tough, but make it so that we can guarantee** 

### 16 **that we will still have food safety, ability** 

### 17 **to pull down soft drink temperatures in a** 

### 18 **reasonable time window, ability to keep a** 

### 19 **refrigerator cold when it's constantly being** 

### 20 **opened. Those are things that we have to deal** 

### 21 **with that don't technically fit within the** 

### 22 **standards consideration, but we as engineering**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 350**  **1 groups and manufacturers know where we have to**  

### 2 **go to get these pieces of information, and** 

### 3 **know what we have to do to supply our** 

### 4 **customers with what they want, and what they** 

### 5 **need. And those are things that we are very** 

### 6 **concerned about, but we will definitely** 

### 7 **support energy efficiency because we believe** 

### 8 **it's the right thing to do.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bruce.** 

### 10 **MR. HIERLMEIER: Earlier you** 

### 11 **mentioned there's a way to submit confidential** 

### 12 **data. How would you provide it to us, so we** 

### 13 **know how to do that? Are you going to send out** 

### 14 **an email, or do you have a --** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Don't send anything** 

### 17 **to me.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Harvey.** 

### 19 **MR. SACHS: As we close out this** 

### 20 **meeting and recognize the constraints on DOE** 

### 21 **budgets and everyone else's, one of the things** 

### 22 **that I find missing is not so much the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 351**  **1 correlation between the models and the test**  

### 2 **performance, as between the whole rating** 

### 3 **method and any field calibration of it.** 

### 4 **Somehow in this community, DOE, the** 

### 5 **manufacturers, and major customers, it really** 

### 6 **would be nice to think about ways that we can** 

### 7 **start getting information on a reasonable** 

### 8 **sample of products in the field to see what** 

### 9 **correlation there is between the standards to** 

### 10 **which they've been built and their actual** 

### 11 **field energy use.** 

### 12 **It's hardly a novel concept, but** 

### 13 **in the last 30 years we've never been able to** 

### 14 **find the resources or to think about** 

### 15 **collaborative methods by which we might do** 

### 16 **this so we could tune our rating methods to** 

### 17 **reflect the conditions under which these** 

### 18 **products work. End of rant. Thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional closing** 

### 20 **remarks? Okay, seeing none then to Charles** 

### 21 **Llenza.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 352**  **1 MR. LLENZA: I just wanted to**  

### 2 **finish up with that there is summary of the** 

### 3 **requests for comments at the end of the** 

### 4 **presentation. These are the questions that you** 

### 5 **could key on in providing the Department.** 

### 6 **Also, I wanted to emphasize how to submit the** 

### 7 **written comments and the deadline, and in** 

### 8 **addition to keep an eye on the website since** 

### 9 **we are under shutdown conditions here, and we** 

### 10 **don't know when the Department is going to be** 

### 11 **fully operational. So, we don't have the** 

### 12 **capacity right now to do everything we need to** 

### 13 **do, but to keep an eye on the website because** 

### 14 **if anything we have, including the spreadsheet** 

### 15 **that was talked about, that's the place we** 

### 16 **would put it up.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And closing** 

### 18 **remarks from John Cymbalsky.** 

### 19 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Doug. So,** 

### 20 **once again, thanks everybody for coming, and I** 

### 21 **think we all learned a lot today about what** 

### 22 **you all do, and what's in our rule, and we're**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 353**  **1 going to take all your comments, both what was**  

### 2 **said here today and what you submit in written** 

### 3 **form, and we will take them under** 

### 4 **consideration as we prepare a final rule.** 

### 5 **As was said in the outset,** 

### 6 **currently our time line is February for** 

### 7 **release of the final rule, so we are committed** 

### 8 **to working towards that deadline, and we hope** 

### 9 **that all the data that you support will help** 

### 10 **the Department make a very informed decision** 

### 11 **on this rulemaking.** 

### 12 **And, again, travel safe home, and** 

### 13 **thanks again for coming.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: And we should thank** 

### 15 **those that joined us via the web. Please, the** 

### 16 **Department includes you in wanting to receive** 

### 17 **comments, and thanks to everybody in the room** 

### 18 **for all the good commentary today.** 

### 19 **(Whereupon, the proceedings went** 

### 20 **off the record at 4:19 p.m.)** 

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253:19 9:00 1:10 9:044:2 9:23 21:13 9:3621:14 90207:13 90-plus47:15 90.1 19:14 95 314:5,6NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 401

Energy Conservation Standards for Commercial Refrigeration Equipment

US DOE

10-03-13

Washington, DC