UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

In the Matter of: 

FEDERAL AVIATION 

ADMINISTRATION, 

Complainant, 

vs. 

MARTINAIRE AVIATION, 

LLC, 

Respondent. 

Room 591 

FAA Case No. 

2011SW711089 

Civil Penalty Action 

FDMS No. 

FAA-2013-0040 

Federal Building 

207 S. Houston 

Dallas, Texas 

Wednesday, 

June 18, 2014 

The above-entitled matter came on for 

hearing, pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

HON. RICHARD C. GOODWIN, 

Administrative Law Judge 

1 

RECEIVED 

(202) 234-4433 

JUL 1 0 2014 

HEARING DOCKET 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
APPEARANCES: 

On behalf of the Complainant 

JAMES ARCHIER, ESQ. 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Office of the Regional Counsel 

General Litigation Branch 

2601 Meacham Boulevard 

Fort Worth, Texas 76137 

817-222-5074 

On behalf of the Respondent 

MICHAEL L. DWORKIN, ESQ. 

Michael L. Dworkin and Associates 

465 California Street, Suite 210 

San Francisco, California 94104 

415-421-2500 

NEAL R. GROSS 

2 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
TABLE OF CONTENTS 

WITNESS 

Bryan Buchanan 

Paul Klimas 

DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

25 

74 

44 

93 

65 70 

Alan Rusinowitz 115 

EXHIBITS MARKED/RECEIVED 

ALJ: 

ALJ-1 8/8 

Government: 

Ex. 100.01 26/29 

Respondent: 

Ex. R-1 38/46 

NEAL R. GROSS 

3 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrgross.com 
4 

1 P R 0 C E E D I N G S 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: This is the case 

3 of Martinaire Aviation, DMS Docket Number FAA4 2013-0040. Counsel, you will identify 

5 yourself for the record, please. 

6 MR. ARCHIER: For the Federal 

7 Aviation Administration, it's James Archier, 

8 A-R-C-H-I-E-R. 

9 MR. DWORKIN: For Respondent 

10 Martinaire Aviation, LLC, it's Michael L. 

11 Dworkin, D-W-0-R-K-I-N. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Just a couple 

13 preliminarymatters. We normally take a break 

14 about 10:30; break for lunch around 12:00, 

15 depending upon how close there are eateries 

16 from here; take another break around 2: 3 0; and 

17 we'll finish at 6:30, so that we can be out of 

18 the building by five o'clock. 

19 As I do with all the court 

20 reporters, if you get to a word you don't 

21 understand, raise your hand. That'll be the 

22 signal to all of us to try to spell it. That 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
5 

1 way at midnight tonight, you're not beating 

2 your head against the wall, trying to figure 

3 out what it is we said. 

4 Counsel should be aware, I take a 

5 fairly liberal view on sealing the record to 

6 protect confidential business and personal 

7 identifying information. I'll seal it as 

8 necessary, and I'll it as a precaution. 

9 Consistent with my past practices, try to 

10 review your exhibits to make sure that there's 

11 no personal identifying information, dates of 

12 birth, home addresses, home phone numbers, 

13 cell numbers. 

14 I always go through the exhibits 

15 and redact. As both of you know, everything 

16 we do goes in the public record, goes on the 

17 Internet, which is one of the reasons I try to 

18 keep that information out, out of the record. 

19 Having said that, I have to tell 

20 both sides, I can't ensure the integrity or 

21 confidentiality of information put into the 

22 record, as the Chief Judge unilaterally 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrgross.com 
6 

1 disclosed information, contrary to language in 

2 my prior court orders and instructions to 

3 staff, so be aware of that. 

4 I've got a hearing disability. If 

5 I ask you to repeat something, don't take it 

6 personally. I really can't hear you. If you 

7 have any questions, call my wife. She'll back 

8 it up. I can't hear her in a restaurant half 

9 the time, which can be good, which can be bad. 

10 As to the transcript 

11 MR. DWORKIN: We call that 

12 selective hearing. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, that's what 

14 she says. I only need a digital copy of the 

15 transcript. If either counsel, you know, 

16 wants a written copy, just let the court 

17 reporter know. I think the contract probably 

18 provides for everything. I've gotten to the 

19 point, I don't even read the printed one. I 

20 use the digital. 

21 I would like it if you can do 

22 it -- I may be uslng the wrong language-- ln 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
7 

1 ASCII format or Word format or something. The 

2 one I did in Chicago, I think she said it was 

3 ASCII. All I want to be able to do is copy 

4 and paste. If it's PDF, I'll figure out 

5 something. 

6 And as to exhibits, I don't care 

7 how you number them, as long as you both don't 

8 use the same numbers. And I will keep the 

9 original copies, and get them into the record. 

10 If the two of you want to brief 

11 this once we're done, you two work out the 

12 schedule. I'm open. I'm scheduling into 

13 September. I know both of you have busy trial 

14 schedules. You know, my normal format is once 

15 the transcript is available, if you two will 

16 talk, work out some sort of a briefing 

17 schedule, typically the FAA is two to four 

18 weeks, and then two weeks for the Respondent, 

19 and then a week for rebuttal. 

20 If you want to do something 

21 different, that's fine. As Mr. Archier --you 

22 know Mr. Leibowitz retired in September, and 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
8 

1 to say that I'm backed up would be an 

2 understatement. Just ask your colleague there 

3 on the other bench. He's sitting here, 

4 anxiously waiting for some decisions. I'm 

5 getting to them as fast as I can, but as you 

6 know, Ira was a 30-year institution and 

7 probably not going to be replaced. But we 

8 will do what we can. 

9 Any - - I ' ve got I know that 

10 there's a motion in limine I haven't ruled on. 

11 I'm probably going to rule on that in the 

12 context of writing the decision. 

13 Both of you have filed motions to 

14 take judicial notice. I take a literal view 

15 of judicial notice. If it meets the 

16 parameters of the rule, I '11 take judicial 

17 notice. What I try to do, like with the --

18 similar to regulations, I try to make a point 

19 of looking at the regulation that was in 

20 effect at the time of the incident. 

21 One of the reasons I started doing 

22 that is it keeps me from having to lug around 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE, N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 WNw.nealrgross.com 
9 

1 two or three or four three-ring binders after 

2 the hearing, as both of you very gleefully get 

3 rid of your exhibits and hand them to me. 

4 Any other preliminary matters, 

5 gentlemen? 

6 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, the --

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, sir. 

8 MR. ARCHIER: -- Federal Aviation 

9 Administration did file a motion to introduce 

10 an exhibit, and that particular exhibit was 

11 the-- a statement by the agent, Paul Klimas, 

12 and there was some objection to that. But I 

13 don't know whether you want to handle that 

14 during -- when we put the witness on. We 

15 intend 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Why don't we just 

17 do that. Let's handle it as an evidentiary 

18 matter. As I jokingly say, these are 

19 administrative proceedings. The rules are 

20 fairly liberal. 

21 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: I have told 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
10 

1 counsel in the past, if you can get the truck 

2 in the door, I'll put an exhibit label on it 

3 and we'll put it in evidence. 

4 MR. ARCHIER: Thank you. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: So but it goes 

6 to weight. It certainly goes to weight, and 

7 if you read my opinion in D&D International, 

8 you know, it gives you some ideas. Anything 

9 else, Mr. Archier? 

10 MR. ARCHIER: I'm ready when you 

11 are, Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'm ready 

13 when you are, so 

14 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. 

15 MR. DWORKIN: Before Mr. Archier 

16 starts --

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: You gave him a 

18 break, Mr. Archier. You got to watch that. 

19 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. 

20 MR. DWORKIN: I'd like the record 

21 to reflect that we've submitted a trial brief 

22 this morning. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
11 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

2 MR. DWORKIN: And there are 

3 actually 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want me to 

5 mark that? I don't think that needs to be 

6 marked as an exhibit, does it? 

7 MR. DWORKIN: It's your call, 

8 Judge. Some Judges mark it as Exhibit ALJ -1. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's do that. 

10 That'll give the Court something to do. 

11 (The document referred to was 

12 marked for identification as ALJ 

13 Exhibit 1.) 

14 MR. DWORKIN: And there are 

15 actually three in limine motions that are 

16 pending from Martinaire, and also on June 11, 

17 we also filed a second request for judicial 

18 notice. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: I may or may not 

20 have seen that one. Okay. ALJ-1 for 

21 identification is received into evidence. 

22 It's Martinaire Aviation's trial brief. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
12 

1 (The document referred to, 

2 having been previously marked for 

3 identification as ALJ Exhibit 1, 

4 was received in evidence.) 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: If the FAA wants 

6 to file a trial brief, that's fine. If they 

7 don't, that's also fine. 

8 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. Thank you. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

10 OPENING STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE 

11 COMPLAINANT 

12 MR. ARCHIER: Good morning, Your 

13 Honor. My name is James Archier. I represent 

14 the Federal Aviation Administration. We're 

15 here to seek a civil penalty against 

16 Martinaire Aviation, LLC, for an amount of 

17 $206,550 for violating the hazardous material 

18 regulations for the shipment for the 

19 transportation of 17 shipments of hazardous 

20 materials that were reflected on notice to 

21 pilot-in-command forms. 

22 Your Honor, these particular 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wvvw. nealrgross.com 
13 

1 notice to pilot-in-command forms had varlous 

2 kinds of problems with them. The types of 

3 problems that were evident during -- that 

4 you'll see will be evident during the 

5 testimony is they included the -- some of the 

6 notice to pilot-in-command3 included incorrect 

7 proper shipping name. Some of them had no 

8 shipping name. Some of them had a fabricated 

9 shipping name. 

10 In most of them, the correct basic 

11 hazardous material description did not match 

12 the hazardous class, the packing group, or the 

13 UN identification number for the hazardous 

14 material in issue. 

15 Your Honor, Martinaire is a U.S. 

16 cargo airline. It operates feeder flights for 

17 overnight package delivery services for UPS 

18 and DHL. The Federal Aviation Administration 

19 treated it has a group 2 air carrier. It 

2 o treated it as a group 2 air carrier because it 

21 has revenues of less than a hundred million. 

22 It has 50 or below pilots, and it has over 25 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
14 

1 aircraft. 

2 Your Honor, the Federal Aviation 

3 Administration filed a motion for judicial 

4 notice, which you ruled on, and it indicated 

5 in that judicial notice there was an order 

6 assessing civil penalty that began ln 2009, 

7 that was issued in 2009. 

8 The Federal Aviation 

9 Administration contends that the problem with 

10 the notice of pilot-in-command forms is a 

11 systemic problem. The problem began in 2009. 

12 As recently as 2013, the Federal Aviation 

13 Administration conducted an inspection of 

14 Martinaire, and the problem continued to 

15 exist. 

16 The type of shipments that were 

17 involved in the hazardous materials that were 

18 transported and reflected in the NOPICs were 

19 category A hazardous materials. Category A 

20 hazardous materials are catastrophic to the 

21 safe flight of an aircraft. 

22 Some of the other kind of 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
15 

1 hazardous materials that were reflected in 

2 NOPIC were category B. Although category B 

3 hazardous materials do not pose an immediate 

4 threat to the safe flight of an aircraft, the 

5 release of these materials can cause death or 

6 injury to the pilot or any crew members that 

7 are on board the aircraft. Also, these 

8 hazardous materials were also in category C, 

9 Your Honor. 

10 Your Honor, what's the big deal 

11 with having a NOPIC that's not filled out 

12 correctly? Well, the big deal is this, Your 

13 Honor. The big deal is it poses a serious 

14 threat to the pilot-in-command. It poses a 

15 threat to their health and safety. It poses 

16 a threat to their health and safety, because 

17 if they can't identify the hazardous material, 

18 they're not going to be able to address it 

19 during a flight or during an air crash or an 

20 incident. 

21 It also poses a problem to the 

22 pilots-in-command or to the first 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
16 

1 responders, because they would have no way of 

2 knowing what type of hazardous material was on 

3 board the aircraft. 

4 Now, the Federal Aviation 

5 Administration seeks a civil penalty of 

6 $206,550 for 17 shipments of hazardous 

7 material that were reflected on 12 

8 notification of pilot- in-command forms. This 

9 may seem like a high civil penalty, but in 

10 reality, it's really not. It's not a high 

11 civil penalty, Your Honor, because alr 

12 carriers are obligated to perform their 

13 services with the highest possible standard of 

14 care. 

15 An carrier has a 

16 responsibility to assure to the maximum extent 

17 possible the safety and well-being of its 

18 passengers, crew, and those in the flying 

19 public. We ask you respectfully, Your Honor, 

20 to render a decision for the Federal Aviation 

21 Administration in this case of a civil penalty 

22 of $206,550. Thank you, Your Honor. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
17 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you, Mr . 

2 Archier. Mr. Dworkin, do you want to argue or 

3 reserve? 

4 MR. DWORKIN: I 1 11 give my opening 

5 statement now. 

6 OPENING STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE 

7 RESPONDENT 

8 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, in 

9 addition to what we've stated in our trial 

10 brief, there are really no uncontroverted 

11 facts in this case. Your Honor already 

12 granted the Complainant's motion for decision 

13 in part, and the only two issues to be 

14 adjudicated are: Were there regulatory 

15 violations of hazardous material regulation 

16 Section 175.33, and if so, what sanctions 

17 should be imposed? 

18 The order granting in part 

19 Complainant's motion for decision basically 

20 established the factual allegations. That's 

21 the first thing. 

22 The second thing is that as we 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 wNw.nealrgross.com 
18 

1 stated in one of our in limine motions as to 

2 the purpose that the NOPIC is supposed to 

3 serve, the NOPIC exists for the benefit of the 

4 pilot-in-command. It does not exist for the 

5 benefit of first responders. 

6 There is nothing in the regulation 

7 that says that the NOPIC is geared for first 

8 responders. There's nothing in any publicly 

9 disseminated information published by the FAA 

10 or authorized by the FAA that says that the 

11 NOPIC is for the benefit of first responders, 

12 which is why we have submitted our motion in 

13 limine number 3. 

14 We have taken the depositions of 

15 the FAA's two witnesses who they intend to 

16 call, and they've testified that, to their 

17 knowledge, there is no body of evidence, no 

18 body of literature, no publications, no 

19 interpretations that NOPICs serve anything 

20 other than to provide notification to the 

21 pilot-in-command as to what he or she has on 

22 his or her aircraft. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
19 

1 The other thing to keep in 

2 perspective here is that unlike other alr 

3 carriers and there will be evidence of 

4 this -- with most air carriers -- most cargo 

5 alr carriers are a lot larger than Martinaire 

6 and a lot more sophisticated. The NOPIC is 

7 prepared by someone other than the pilot-in8 command, and the NOPIC is delivered to the 

9 crew in command of the aircraft before the 

10 aircraft departs with the load of hazardous 

11 materials. 

12 In Martinaire's case, it is the 

13 pilot who is preparing the NOPIC. The pilot 

14 is preparing essentially a note to self as to 

15 what he has on the aircraft. Now, where does 

16 the pilot get that information? The pilot 

17 gets the information from a coupon which is 

18 given to him by UPS or DHL, which has all the 

19 information that the NOPIC is required to 

20 have. 

21 So essentially the NOPIC is a 

22 redundant form, because the pilot already has 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
20 

1 the notification as to what is on the airplane 

2 and what he is carrying. The we will 

3 admit, there were difficulties and there were 

4 errors in the 90-day file which is maintained 

5 by Martinaire. These are the dispatch copies 

6 of the NOPICs. But to say that the pilot did 

7 not have notification of what he or she were 

8 carrying on these flights, there is absolutely 

9 no evidence. 

10 In terms of high sanction and 

11 systemic errors, yes, there was a 2009 civil 

12 penalty dealing with a NOPIC case that was 

13 settled, and the record will show and the 

14 evidence will show that Martinaire settled 

15 that without its admission of liability or 

16 wrongdoing, and it was a relatively minor 

17 civil penalty. 

18 However, if, as the record 

19 reflects-- and I'm referring to the matters 

20 for which the Court has already taken judicial 

21 notice there have been repeated civil 

22 penalties that have been assessed by the FAA 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
21 

1 and specifically Southwest Region against 

2 Southwest Airlines, specifically two of them; 

3 there have been four of them assessed against 

4 American Airlines, again by Southwest Region, 

5 and these civil penalties have paled in 

6 comparison to the $206,550 that the FAA is 

7 asking for. Thank you, Your Honor. 

8 MR. ARCHIER: May I have rebuttal, 

9 Your Honor? 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

11 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. 

12 FURTHER OPENING STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE 

13 COMPLAINANT 

14 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, Mr. 

15 Dworkin says that there are two issues before 

16 the Court here today, and one of the issues is 

17 the civil penalty sanction. We agree with 

18 that. The civil penalty sanction is before 

19 the Court. 

20 He also indicated, however, that 

21 before the Court that a determination of the 

22 regulatory violations has to be determined, 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
22 

1 and we disagree with that. We disagree with 

2 that, because the motion for summary judgment 

3 and your order and the order granting in part 

4 and denying in part Complainant's motion for 

5 decision indicates that, "In Vlew of the 

6 foregoing, it is hereby found and concluded 

7 that Respondent Martinaire Aviation, LLC, 

8 violated 49 C.F.R. Sections 175.33(a) (1), 

9 175.33 (a) (1) (I), and 175.33 (a) (7), asserted in 

10 Complainant's complaint." 

11 Now, in addition that, Your Honor, 

12 Mr. Dworkin talks about numerous civil 

13 penalties that do not -- aren't ln the same 

14 ballpark as far as numbers that he sees his 

15 civil penalty as. And, Your Honor, Judge 

16 Kolko ruled some time ago in Envirosolve that 

17 the hazardous material cases are viewed with 

18 the totality of circumstances, and that's what 

19 you have to look at each case with, the 

20 totality of circumstances, and they can be 

21 viewed differently. 

22 So there's not going to be a 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
23 

1 number that's going to be consistent that Mr. 

2 Dworkin's going to be happy with, because we 

3 look at the facts of each particular case with 

4 regard to those particular cases. 

5 With regard to the testimony, Your 

6 Honor, certainly with regard to the motions in 

7 limine as we bring our witnesses in, you know, 

8 we can make rulings with regard to the 

9 evidentiary material that those witnesses are 

10 going to testify to, but Mr. Buchanan and Mr. 

11 Klimas will testify to facts which are within 

12 the purview of Rule 602 of the Federal Rules 

13 of Evidence, and those particular issues will 

14 go to the fact issues that are set forth in 49 

15 U.S.C. 5123 (c) (1), (2), and (3), only four 

16 points of those, Your Honor. 

17 And we're prepared to bring our 

18 first witness, Your Honor. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Okay. 

20 MR. ARCHIER: May I? 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

22 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
24 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you want a rule 

2 on witnesses, or does it make any difference? 

3 In Maryland, we call it a rule on witness 

4 sequestration. Does it make any difference to 

5 either one of 

6 MR. DWORKIN: It doesn't make any 

7 difference, Your Honor. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

9 MR. ARCHIER: So you don't have a 

10 problem if the --

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: We don' t have a 

12 problem. 

13 MR. ARCHIER: Yes. Okay. But --

14 thank you, Your Honor. 

15 (Pause.) 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, raise your 

17 right hand. 

18 Whereupon, 

19 BRYAN EDWARD BUCHANAN 

20 having been first duly sworn, was called as a 

21 witness herein and was examined and testified 

22 as follows: 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
25 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

2 State your name for the record, and spell your 

3 first and last name. 

4 THE WITNESS: Bryan Edward 

5 Buchanan. First name, B-R-Y-A-N, last name, 

6 Buchanan, B-U-C-H-A-N-A-N. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel. 

8 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

9 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

10 Q Good morning, Mr. Buchanan. How 

11 are you today? 

12 A Fine. Thank you. 

13 Q Would you please tell the Court 

14 where you work at? 

15 A I work for the FAA. 

16 Q And what are your duties? 

17 A I am a manager in the hazardous 

18 materials safety branch in Fort Worth, Texas. 

19 Q Okay. Tell me a little bit about 

20 what you do on a day-to-day basis. 

21 A I supervise eight special agents 

22 who work in three different states that 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
26 

1 conduct inspections and investig3.tions of 

2 violations of the hazardous material 

3 regulations. 

4 Q And how long have you worked with 

5 the Federal Aviation Administration? 

6 A About 17 years. 

7 Q Okay. Where did you work prior to 

8 coming to the Federal Aviation Administration? 

9 A I worked for the Federal Highway 

10 Administration, Office of Motor Carriers, 

11 which is currently the Federal Motor Carrier 

12 Safety Administration. 

13 Q Okay. And how long did you work 

14 there? 

15 A Seven years. 

16 Q Seven years . And what capacity 

17 did you work? 

18 A I was a special agent with that 

19 organization as well. 

20 Q Okay. So totally you've worked in 

21 the hazardous material arena for about how 

22 many years? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
27 

1 A Close to 25. 

2 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Buchanan, are you 

3 familiar with the Martinaire Aviation, LLC, 

4 inspection and investigation? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Okay. What kind of operations is 

7 Martinaire? 

8 A They are a Part 135 on-demand 

9 cargo carrier. 

10 Q Okay. Can you describe in a 

11 little bit more detail what the company does? 

12 A They currently have a contract 

13 with United Parcel Service and, I believe, 

14 DHL. And they are a feeder operation, and 

15 they take freight from small markets to larger 

16 markets, and then back from larger markets to 

17 small markets on a contract basis. 

18 Q Okay. Tell the Court how you were 

19 involved in the Martinaire comprehensive 

20 hazardous material inspection. 

21 A I supervise the agent who was the 

22 lead agent, Mr. Paul Klimas, who conducted 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
28 

1 that inspection with other special agents. 

2 Q How was the inspection conducted? 

3 A It was conducted at the corporate 

4 office in Addison, as well as some ramp 

5 inspection activity at Dallas-Fort Worth 

6 International Airport. 

7 Q Okay. Mr. Buchanan, can you 

8 describe for the Court what Martinaire' s 

9 process is for creating or before I go 

10 that, let me back up. Can you tell the Court 

11 what a notification of pilot-in-command form 

12 is? 

13 A A notification of pilot-in-command 

14 is a document that details the hazardous 

15 materials that are accepted and transported on 

16 an aircraft, and their location and other 

17 information that could be used by emergency 

18 responders or the pilot in charge. 

19 Q Okay. Are you familiar with the 

20 process that Martinaire uses to create its 

21 notification for pilot-in-command forms? 

22 A I am. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
29 

1 Q Can you tell the Court that 

2 process, please. 

3 A At the smaller stations, the 

4 remote locations, the UPS or the DHL truck 

5 will back up to the Martina ire aircraft. The 

6 pilot will then go through an inspection, an 

7 acceptance process of those hazardous 

8 materials. He will fill out the notice to 

9 pilot-in-command. He will place the materials 

10 on the aircraft in specific locations and 

11 notate that on the NOPIC. 

12 And then at that point, before he 

13 takes off, he will contact his dispatch 

14 office. he will provide the information on 

15 that NOPIC form to a dispatcher who will write 

16 it down verbatim, and then a record is at the 

17 dispatch office, as well as the pilot has a 

18 record in his possession. And then at that 

19 point, the pilot will start his journey to the 

20 larger station. 

21 Q Okay. 

22 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, is the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
30 

1 tone okay for you? 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Thank you. 

3 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

4 Q How many shipments were involved 

5 ln the comprehensive inspection that was 

6 conducted on July 8, 2011? 

7 A There were multiple shipments 

8 inspected. As far as the investigation, there 

9 were 17 documented. 

10 Q Okay. Can you tell the Court a 

11 little bit about the type of what 

12 specifically you did with regard to the-- any 

13 documents that were created as a result of 

14 this inspection? 

15 A Can you restate the question, 

16 please? 

17 Q Yes. What was your role 

18 specifically in reviewing any investigative 

19 reports? Can you tell the Court that. 

20 A My role as a manager or a 

21 supervisor is to review the work that was 

22 created by the special agents of the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
31 

1 inspection, as well as the subsequent 

2 investigation and the report that documented 

3 that. 

4 Q Okay. And did you review that 

5 particular work for this particular 

6 inspection? 

7 A Yes, I did. 

8 Q Okay. And what specifically did 

9 you review? 

10 A I reviewed the inspection report. 

11 I reviewed the enforcement investigative 

12 report, which is the documentation of the 

13 investigation. 

14 Q Would that inspection report have 

15 a statement from the special agent who 

16 conducted the investigation? 

17 A Yes, it would. 

18 Q Okay. Did you revlew that report 

19 also? 

20 A I did. 

21 Q Now, can you tell the Court a 

22 little bit about the noncompliance that you 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
32 

1 witnessed. 

2 A Early ln the inspection process, 

3 Special Agent Klimas contacted me by 

4 telephone, and he explained to me what he was 

5 discovering during the inspection process. I 

6 had him provide me information over the phone 

7 of what exactly was deficient in those NOPICs, 

8 and they were missing many things, like the 

9 proper shipping name, the hazard class, the 

10 packing group, the UN number, some or in part 

11 or the entire the shipping description 

12 would be missing, and there would be a trade 

13 name for the material in some cases. 

14 Q What categories of hazardous 

15 material did those notification to pilot-in16 command forms reflect? 

17 A All different categories, 

18 categories A, B, and C. 

19 Q And what's the significance of 

20 category -- the risk category A? 

21 A Category A is a material that 

22 would present a catastrophic risk to a pilot 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
33 

1 and to an aircraft. 

2 Q And as far as category B, can you 

3 describe for the Court what -- just generally 

4 what that type of risk that poses. 

5 A I believe it states that it would 

6 pose an immediate risk to pilot and aircraft. 

7 Q Okay. And you're saying it poses 

8 an immediate risk if that hazardous material 

9 were released inside the confines of an 

10 aircraft? 

11 A That's correct. 

12 Q Okay. And do you know whether the 

13 notification to pilot-in-command forms also 

14 had category C risk category hazardous 

15 materials? 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q Now, in your position, Mr. 

18 Buchanan, you're familiar and you work closely 

19 with the Federal AviationAdministrativeOrder 

20 2150.38. Is that correct? 

21 A That is correct. 

22 Q Okay. And you're familiar with 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
34 

1 the -- how Martinaire is classified. Can you 

2 tell the Court how Martinaire is classified? 

3 A In accordance with the 2150.3B, 

4 they are considered a group 2 air carrier. 

5 Q Okay. What does a group 2 alr 

6 carrier mean? 

7 A That is an air carrier that has a 

8 gross revenue less than $100 million annually. 

9 It has 50 or more pilots, and it has 25 or 

10 more aircraft. 

11 Q Okay. And I believe possibly you 

12 misstated. It has 50 or less pilots. Is that 

13 what you meant? 

14 A That is correct. Fifty or less. 

15 Q Okay. Now, what kind of standard, 

16 Mr. Buchanan, is an airline that transports 

17 hazardous material held to? 

18 A It's held to a high standard. 

19 Q Okay. And why is that? 

20 A When hauling hazardous materials, 

21 if there is an incident, if there's no way to 

22 communicate what exactly is going on or the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
35 

1 hazard presented, it would present a danger to 

2 emergency responders, transportation crew, 

3 even the pilot and copilot in some situations. 

4 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Buchanan, I want 

5 to shift ground here, and I want to talk a 

6 little bit about Martinaire's violation 

7 history. Okay? All right. You're familiar 

8 withMartinaire'sviolationhistory. Correct? 

9 A Yes, I am. 

10 Q All right. Tell the Court what 

11 you know about Martinaire' s violation history. 

12 A Prior to July 2011, the day of the 

13 inspection, Martinaire had a closed civil 

14 penalty case for NOPIC violations that was 

15 paid ln March of 2011, I believe, and they 

16 also had a closed civil penalty case for 

17 failing to inspect a misdeclared hazardous 

18 material, I believe. 

19 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Buchanan, I want 

20 to talk about Martinaire' s corrective action. 

21 You're familiar with Martinaire's corrective 

22 action. Correct? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
36 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q All right. When was the late --

3 when was the date of the last inspection that 

4 was conducted at Martinaire by one of your 

5 special agents? 

6 A That would be December of 2013. 

7 Q Okay. And can you tell the Court 

8 what that inspection showed. 

9 A We found the same or similar type 

10 violations at Martinaire. 

11 Q Okay. And when you say, the same 

12 or similar type violations, can you just 

13 elaborate on that? 

14 A Sure. They were NOPIC violations, 

15 very similar to the case that was written in 

16 July of 2011. 

17 Q Now, Mr. --

18 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, if I 

19 may, I'd like to approach the witness. I have 

20 an exhibit that we would like to move to --

21 into evidence, and I will -- may I approach 

22 the bench or --

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www .. nealrgross.com 
37 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Thank you. 

2 MR. ARCHIER: (Handing document.) 

3 Your Honor, we're showing you what is marked 

4 as Government Exhibit 100.01. Here's for a 

5 copy for the court reporter, and here's a copy 

6 for the witness. 

7 (The document referred to was 

8 marked for identification as 

9 Government Exhibit 100.01.) 

10 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

11 Q Mr. Buchanan, would you please 

12 take a look at Government Exhibit 100.01, 

13 please. 

14 MR. DWORKIN: Objection, Your 

15 Honor. 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's the first 

17 exhibit. Go ahead. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: Objection. Number 

19 one, this is Mr. Klimas's statement, not Mr. 

20 Buchanan's. Number two, again, the 

21 allegations of NOPIC irregularities to which 

22 this statement pertains have already been 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
38 

1 established. They're uncontroverted. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: I think the 

3 objection's premature at this point. 

4 Objection's overruled. 

5 MR. ARCHIER: Thank you, Your 

6 Honor. 

7 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

8 Q Mr. Buchanan, take a moment and 

9 look at the Government Exhibit 100.01. 

10 A (Perusing document.) Okay. 

11 Q Do you recognize it? 

12 A Yes, I do. 

13 Q What is it? 

14 A It is the statement of Special 

15 Agent Paul Klimas in the investigation of 

16 Martinaire for violations of the NOPIC 

17 standard. 

18 Q And when was this statement by Mr. 

19 Klimas conducted? 

20 A At or about the same time as the 

21 inspection in July of 2011. 

22 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Buchanan, is this 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
39 

1 document, this statement by special agent, is 

2 this a record of the inspection of July 8, 

3 2011, that was conducted by Mr. Paul Klimas? 

4 A It is a record of the 

5 investigation of Special Agent Paul Klimas. 

6 Q Was this document made at or near 

7 the time of the inspection? 

8 A Yes, it was. 

9 Q Mr. Buchanan, was this document 

10 made by Mr. Klimas who conducted the 

11 inspection? 

12 A Yes, it was. 

13 Q Is this statement part of the 

14 record that is kept in the regular course of 

15 business conducted by the Federal Aviation 

16 Administration? 

17 A Yes, it is. 

18 Q Mr. Buchanan, is it a regular 

19 practice of the Federal Aviation 

20 Administration to keep this kind of record? 

21 A Yes, it is. 

22 Q Okay. Mr. Buchanan, was this 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
40 

1 particular record created by a computer and a 

2 program? Was it generated by a computer and 

3 a program? 

4 A Yes, it was. 

5 Q Was the computer and program which 

6 generated this record in good working order at 

7 all relevant times? 

8 A Yes, it was. 

9 Q Now, Mr. Buchanan, did Paul Klimas 

10 possess the knowledge and training to 

11 correctly operate the computer that generated 

12 this report? 

13 A Yes, he was. 

14 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, the 

15 Federal Aviation Administratim moves for 

16 admission of Government Exhibit 100.01 as a 

17 business record which Mr. Buchanan had the 

18 opportunity to review, and it reflects the 

19 thoughts of Mr. Paul Klimas who will also 

20 testify here today, and it reflects the fact 

21 that Mr. Buchanan reviewed this document as a 

22 part of his work. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
41 

1 MR. DWORKIN: Your Honor, the same 

2 objection and additionally objecting on the 

3 grounds of lack of foundation. There's no 

4 evidence as to what type of computer, what 

5 type of program. You know, did they use 

6 Windows. Did they use Safari? Did they use 

7 Google Earth? Who knows? 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Objection's 

9 overruled. However, it's not going to 

10 preclude you when the witness is called to 

11 make inquiry. Your objection goes to the 

12 weight that the Court will give the document. 

13 So Agency 100.01 for identification is 

14 received into evidence as 100.01. 

15 (The document referred to, 

16 having been previously marked for 

17 identification as Government 

18 Exhibit 100.01, was received in 

19 evidence.) 

20 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

21 Q Mr. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
42 

1 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. 

2 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

3 Q Mr. Buchanan, I want to talk a 

4 little bit about the purpose of the notice of 

5 pilot-in-command forms. 

6 A Okay. 

7 Q Tell the Court the purpose of the 

8 notice of pilot-in-command forms. 

9 A The notice of pilot-in-command 

10 form provides a pilot the information on 

11 exactly what is loaded on his aircraft, where 

12 it is located, and other emergency 

13 information. 

14 Q Okay. If the notice of pilot-in15 command form is not completed properly, does 

16 it pose a threat to anyone? 

17 A It does. It poses a threat to the 

18 pilot who may not know what he's got on his 

19 aircraft. It also poses a threat to the 

20 emergency responders who would have no idea on 

21 how to react to a situation with a hazardous 

22 material. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
43 

1 Q Can you give the Court an example 

2 of how an emergency responder would have to 

3 deal with a situation involving a hazardous 

4 material that it didn't know-- it didn't have 

5 any knowledge of what -- of. 

6 A If an aircraft was on fire or 

7 there was some other incident that occurred on 

8 an aircraft, a fire department would not have 

9 access to information on the aircraft if the 

10 information had not been properly filled out 

11 on the NOPIC. 

12 Q Is there anything else? 

13 A (No response. ) 

14 Q How would it affect the pilot-in15 command? 

16 A If the pilot-in-command was having 

17 an issue, if there was a fire on the aircraft 

18 or some other type of incident, the pilot 

19 could possibly make -- take action to remove 

20 the hazard from an area that was on fire or 

21 causing an issue. 

22 Q Okay. So my understanding is that 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
44 

1 the pilot -- the notice for pilot-in-command 

2 is not just a piece of paper. Is that 

3 correct? 

4 A That is correct. 

5 Q Okay. 

6 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, I have 

7 no further questions. Thank you. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin. 

9 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

10 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

11 Q Good morning, Mr. Buchanan. 

12 A Good morning, sir. 

13 Q I'm Mike Dworkin. We've met 

14 previously. 

15 A Yes, sir. 

16 Q In most cases involving the 

17 carrlage of hazardous material, it is someone 

18 other -- or in most situations involving the 

19 air carriage of hazardous materials by most 

20 alr carriers, the procedure that's followed is 

21 different than the procedure that Martinaire 

22 follows with respect to the preparation of the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
45 

1 NOPICs. Is that correct? 

2 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, I 

3 object. That's a compound question, and it's 

4 ambiguous. 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it's -- if 

6 you can answer it, overruled. 

7 MR. DWORKIN: Let me ask -- let me 

8 withdraw the question. Let me rephrase it. 

9 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

10 Q In terms of the preparation of 

11 NOPICs, is Martinaire's procedure any 

12 different than American Airlines' procedures? 

13 A Yes, it is different. 

14 Q How is it different? 

15 A With American Airlines, 

16 transportation workers or a computer program 

17 generates a NOPIC for the pilot. In the case 

18 of Martinaire, the pilot generates the NOPIC 

19 after he conducts the acceptance and stowage 

20 of the hazardous material. 

21 Q Okay. And with respect to most of 

22 the cargo carriers and most of the air 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
46 

1 carriers that you have had experience with, 

2 the procedure utilized by American where some 

3 prepares the NOPIC and gives it to the pilot 

4 or gives it to the crew, that's pretty much 

5 the standard of the industry. Is that 

6 correct? 

7 A For the larger cargo carrlers, 

8 correct. 

9 Q Whereas in Martinaire's case, it 

10 is the pilot who prepares the NOPIC, so 

11 basically the pilot is doing a notice to 

12 himself. 

13 A That is correct. 

14 Q Okay. Now, where does the pilot 

15 get this information from? 

16 A In the case of Martinaire? 

17 Q Yes. In the case of Martinaire. 

18 A In the case of Martinaire, the 

19 pilot is conducting the inspection and 

20 acceptance of the hazardous material, so he is 

21 filling out the NOPIC at the same time. 

22 Q Okay. Now, with respect to the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
47 

1 feeder flights that Martinaire conducts for 

2 DHL and UPS, is there not a coupon that DHL 

3 and UPS give the pilot which shows the 

4 hazardous material, the UN number, the 

5 quantity, the common name, the technical name, 

6 and all that other good stuff? 

7 A There is a coupon generated by UPS 

8 that is provided to the pilot. 

9 Q So the and this coupon has 

10 pretty much the same information that the 

11 Martinaire NOPIC form has. Correct? 

12 A Basic -- yes. 

13 Q Okay. So basically what the pilot 

14 is doing when he prepares or she prepares the 

15 NOPIC for Martinaire is they're taking the 

16 information from the DHL coupon or the UPS 

17 coupon and basically transcribing it onto 

18 another form. 

19 A Onto a single document. Yes, sir. 

20 Q And then they fax that or call it 

21 in to dispatch. 

22 A That is correct. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
48 

1 Q So the pilot-in-command, by virtue 

2 of his or her receipt of the DHL coupon, 

3 already knows what's on that airplane. 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q And with respect to the NOPIC 

6 irregularities -- and I think you testified 

7 there were 17 of them that Mr. Klimas 

8 observed-- those were the dispatch copies of 

9 the NOPICs. Is that correct? 

10 A That is correct. 

11 Q So -- and what dispatch does is 

12 they have to maintain a 90-day file. Is that 

13 correct? 

14 A That is correct. 

15 Q So there is a binder, and it has 

16 all the HAZMAT shipments for the previous 90 

17 days. Is that correct? 

18 A That's correct. 

19 Q And in that 90-day period in July 

20 of 2011, how many HAZMAT shipments and how 

21 many NOPICs were in that 90-day file? 

22 A I'm not sure. I'd have to go back 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
49 

1 and look at documentation. 

2 Q Would it have been several 

3 hundred? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Okay. So in other words, we're 

6 talking about 17 out of several hundred that 

7 had errors. 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Now, you indicated that this was a 

10 comprehensive HAZMAT audit of Martinaire 

11 conducted by Mr. Klimas. Is that correct? 

12 A That's correct. 

13 Q And it actually started that day 

14 at DFW. Is that correct? 

15 A I believe that's correct. 

16 Q And there were no discrepancies 

17 found. 

18 A On the ramp inspection, no. 

19 Q Okay. And then it went to 

20 Martina ire's headquarters at Addison. Is that 

21 correct? 

22 A That's correct. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
50 

1 Q And with the exception of the 

2 NOPICs -- I mean, there were other things that 

3 were looked at, other than NOPICs. Is that 

4 correct? 

5 A That is correct. 

6 Q And Martinaire passed muster on 

7 all those other things, other than these 17 

8 NOPICs. 

9 A To the best of my knowledge, 

10 that's correct. 

11 Q Now, you indicated that or 

12 testified that Martinaire is a group 2 

13 carrier, because its revenues are less than a 

14 100 million a year. It has less than 50 

15 pilots but more than 25 aircraft. 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q Okay. Now, for purposes of 

18 establishing group 2 status, does it make any 

19 difference whether the airplanes are owned or 

20 leased or borrowed? 

21 A No. 

22 Q It doesn't. So ln other words, if 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
51 

1 they have 25 or more aircraft on their op 

2 specs, they are a group 2 carrier. 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q Okay. Does it make any difference 

5 what size the airplanes are? 

6 A No. 

7 Q Okay. So ln other words, a 

B company-- and the civil penalties for a group 

9 2 carrier are higher than they are for a group 

10 3 or group 4 carrier. Is that correct? 

11 A That is correct. 

12 Q Okay. So ln other words, if 

13 Martinaire and Martinaire operates small 

14 aircraft. Is that correct? 

15 A That is correct. 

16 Q They have Cessna 208 Caravans, and 

17 they have a couple of Twin Beeches. Is that 

18 correct? 

19 A To the best of my knowledge, yes, 

20 sir. 

21 Q Okay. So if instead of operating 

22 more than 25 light aircraft, if Martinaire got 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
52 

1 rid of all the small airplanes and, let's say, 

2 acquired 24 757 freighters, provided it had 

3 less than 50 pilots, provided that its 

4 revenues were less than 100 million, it would 

5 be treated as a group 3 or a group 4 carrier. 

6 Is that correct? 

7 A That is correct. 

8 Q So they could haul a lot more 

9 freight and be exposed to a lot less civil 

10 penalties if they had bigger airplanes but 

11 fewer of them. 

12 A That is correct. 

13 Q Does that make sense? 

14 MR. ARCHIER: Objection, Your 

15 Honor. It's a hypothetical. It calls for 

16 speculation. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, sustained as 

18 to whether it makes sense. I understand your 

19 argument, Counsel. 

20 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

21 Q Now, did you review Martinaire's 

22 response to the FAA investigation that Mr. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
53 

1 Klimas had initiated? 

2 A I did. 

3 MR. DWORKIN: May I approach, Your 

4 Honor? 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

6 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

7 Q Mr. Buchanan, I'm showing you what 

8 has been marked for identification as Exhibit 

9 R-1. 

10 (The document referred to was 

11 marked for identificatim as 

12 Respondent's Exhibit R-1.) 

13 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

14 Q Can you tell me what that is? 

15 A It appears to be the letter of 

16 response and associated documents in response 

17 to the investigation. 

18 Q Okay. And when -- and you had 

19 reviewed that previously. Is that correct? 

20 A Yes, sir. 

21 Q Okay. And were you satisfied with 

22 Martinaire's response? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
54 

1 A I took it into consideration, and 

2 I was satisfied with it. 

3 Q Okay. And did Martinaire take 

4 corrective action? 

5 A Martinaire promised corrective 

6 action. Yes. 

7 Q Did it take corrective action? 

8 A I had no way to verify that. 

9 Q Doesn't the -- don't the exhibits 

10 indicate certain corrective actions that were 

11 taken? 

12 A There is some. That is correct. 

13 But as far as I would not know without 

14 conducting an additional inspection. 

15 Q Okay. Was there anything that 

16 Mart ina ire should have done that it didn't do 

17 ln responding to Mr. Klimas's investigation? 

18 A Nothing in addition to what was 

19 stated there. 

20 Q Now, let's talk about the purpose 

21 of HMR Section 175.33. As I read 175.33, it 

22 basically says that the operator of the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
55 

1 aircraft has to provide the pilot-in-command 

2 with accurate written information concerning 

3 the shipping name, hazard class, 

4 identificationnumber of the materials, so the 

5 pilot knows what he or she has on board the 

6 airplane. Is that correct? 

7 A That is correct. 

8 Q And that's the regulatory purpose 

9 of the HMR. Correct? 

10 A Yes. 

11 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, the FAA 

12 objects to this line of questioning because it 

13 calls for legal conclusions. It's already 

14 been established that the Martinaire violated 

15 these regulations. 

16 MR. DWORKIN: This is cross17 examination, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, but 

19 objection's overruled. Certainly I'm not 

2 o going to take any witness 's opinion as to what 

21 the law says, but in terms of helping the 

22 Court in evaluating the facts, it's helpful. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
56 

1 Certainly I'm not going to take anyone's --

2 otherwise I wouldn't have anything to do, Mr. 

3 Archier, nor would Mr. Dworkin. He could mail 

4 in his response. 

5 MR. DWORKIN: That wouldn't be as 

6 much fun. 

7 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

8 Q Is there anything in FAA publicly 

9 available documentation, opinions, anything 

10 out there which says that the NOPIC is to be 

11 used for assisting emergency responders? 

12 A The there was a National 

13 Transportation Safety Board recommendation, 

14 and that's why the NO PIC was created. I can't 

15 quote exactly what that was. As a result of 

16 the Newburgh, New York, FedEx crash. 

17 Q But from the FAA, is there any FAA 

18 publicly available documents that says the 

19 NOPIC is to be used for emergency response 

20 purposes? 

21 A Nothing from the FAA. No, sir. 

22 Q So your testimony that the NOPIC 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
57 

1 lS to be used to assist emergency responders, 

2 that's just your personal opinion? 

3 A That section of the regulations 

4 came out as an NTSB recommendation. 

5 Q Well, we're not talking about NTSB 

6 recommendations. I'm talking about FAA 

7 policy. Is there FAA policy which says that 

8 NOPICs are to be used for emergency 

9 responders? 

10 A Nothing from the FAA. No, sir. 

11 Q Okay. And the NTSB, that which 

12 you have stated, is simply a recommendation. 

13 A That is correct. 

14 Q It's not the law. 

15 A That is correct. 

16 Q Over the past ten years and 

17 actually you've been in Southwest Region for 

18 17 years. Is that correct? 

19 A That's correct. 

20 Q In the past 17 years, from your 

21 experience, what has been the average dollar 

22 amount of civil penalties for NO PIC 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
58 

1 violations? 

2 A It would be hard to give you an 

3 average, just based upon each case's -- the 

4 circumstances of each case are different. 

5 Q Okay. Do you recall your 

6 deposition that I took last May? 

7 A Yes, sir, I do. 

8 Q Okay. You indicated that the 

9 average civil penalty that was sought by the 

10 FAA in NOPIC cases was somewhere between 30-

11 and $50,000. Do you recall that testimony? 

12 A I do recall it. Yes, sir. 

13 Q Would that be your testimony 

14 today, that the average for NOPIC violations 

15 is 30- to $50,000? 

16 A I would -- yes, sir. 

17 Q And as a matter of fact, in your 

18 deposition, you testified that the FAA has 

19 never, ever sought civil penalties for NOPIC 

20 violatiorrs in excess of $200,000. Is that 

21 correct? 

22 A To my knowledge, no, sir. That's 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
59 

1 correct. 

2 Q And with respect to Martinaire's 

3 response, Exhibit R-1, the FAA was generally 

4 satisfied with Martinaire stepping up to the 

5 plate and implementing these corrective 

6 actions. Is that correct? 

7 A That is correct. 

8 Q Now, with respect to 2013, you 

9 mentioned that there was an inspection or some 

10 discovery in December of 2013. 

11 A Yes, sir. 

12 Q And they found some NO PIC 

13 violations on the dispatch copies in the 90-

14 day file. 

15 A Yes, sir. 

16 Q Incidentally, the dispatch copies 

17 that you found in the 90-day file, were these 

18 identical to the pilot copies of the NOPICs, 

19 or were they simply the result of the 

20 dispatchers taking down notes from a telephone 

21 call? 

22 A The dispatch record is created by 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
60 

1 the dispatcher, based upon either a 

2 conversation or a fax from the pilot. 

3 Q Okay. So with respect to this 

4 instant case and the December 13 matter, as 

5 you sit here today, were you able to determine 

6 whether these NOPIC irregularities contained 

7 in the 90-day file were the results of the 

8 dispatcher writing down, you know, the 

9 filling in the blocks, or whether they were 

10 the result of the pilot not filling in the 

11 blocks? 

12 A We could not determine that, only 

13 that the NOPIC that we were inspecting was in 

14 violation. 

15 Q Okay. So you don't know who 

16 actually wrote the form, who filled out the 

17 form, whether it was the pilot or whether it 

18 was dispatch. 

19 A No. It should have been dispatch. 

20 Q Oh, okay. So it was the 

21 dispatcher who filled out the NOPIC forms that 

22 you observed. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
61 

1 A That is correct. 

2 Q So as you sit here today, you 

3 don't know what the pilot had on his or her 

4 NOPIC forms. 

5 A That is correct. 

6 Q So although you may have seen 

7 irregularities with respect to the dispatch 

8 copies of the NOPIC forms, you don't know what 

9 the pilot's NOPIC form said or whether or not 

10 it was complete or incomplete. 

11 A That's correct. 

12 Q Now, with respect to December 13 

13 of 2013, you noticed that there were some 

14 problems with incomplete entries ln the 

15 dispatch copies of the NOPICs contained in the 

16 90-day file. 

17 A Yes, sir. 

18 Q And, again, Martinaire stepped up 

19 to the plate, didn't they? 

20 A Yes, they did. 

21 Q And what did they do? 

22 A My understanding is that they did 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
62 

1 some retraining. They submitted a letter of 

2 response, very similar to the one that we have 

3 here, and it's my understanding that they are 

4 addressing that problem. 

5 Q And how were they addressing that 

6 problem? Do you know? 

7 A I don't know exactly. 

8 Q Aren't they developing a computer 

9 program to make this essentially foolproof? 

10 A I have heard that, but I have not 

11 inspected or seen that. 

12 Q Okay. Were -- with respect to the 

13 computer program that Martina ire has 

14 developed, were you in vi ted to come and 

15 inspect it and see how it works? 

16 A I was. 

17 Q And did you decline that 

18 invitation? 

19 A I did. 

20 Q And why did you decline the 

21 invitation? 

22 A Our -- because we weren't ln the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
63 

1 middle. We shouldn't be -- at some point in 

2 the future, we should conduct an inspection to 

3 determine if the carrier is in compliance. To 

4 go and to look at a program outside of those 

5 parameters would not be correct. 

6 Q Did you basically tell Martinaire 

7 that you weren't going to come and inspect it 

8 until after this hearing? 

9 A I did not say that. No, sir. 

10 Q Did anybody from the FAA say that? 

11 A It's possible, but I do not know. 

12 Q With respect to Mr. Klimas's 

13 statement, Government Exhibit 100.01, you say 

14 this was done on a computer? 

15 A Yes, sir. 

16 Q What type of computer was this 

17 statement prepared on? 

18 A I believe it's a Dell computer. 

19 Q Okay. And you also testified that 

20 there was some sort of program that Mr. Klimas 

21 had utilized. What program was that? 

22 A The standard Windows Office type 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234A433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
64 

1 program. 

2 Q Okay. So there's no magic FAA 

3 proprietary program in preparing one of these 

4 statements. Is that correct? 

5 A No, Slr. Not at all. 

6 MR. DWORKIN: I have no further 

7 questions. Thank you. And, Your Honor, ask 

8 that R-1 be received. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Archier? 

10 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, we have 

11 no objections to R-1. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

13 Respondent's 1 for identification will be 

14 received as Respondent's 1. 

15 (The document referred to, 

16 having been previously marked for 

17 identification as Respondent's 

18 Exhibit R-1, was received in 

19 evidence.) 

20 MR. ARCHIER: We have a --

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. 

22 MR. ARCHIER: -- few questions. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
65 

1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

2 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

3 Q Mr. Buchanan, there was some 

4 testimony about the purpose of the NOPIC, 

5 the notification of pilot-in-command form, 

6 as to its use by the dispatch. Can you 

7 explain to the Court how that notice of 

8 pilot-in-command form is prepared for the 

9 dispatch again, please. 

10 A Okay. The pilot will contact the 

11 dispatcher. At that point, the pilot will 

12 read off what is on the NOPIC. The 

13 dispatcher will take that information down. 

14 At that point, that becomes the record in 

15 the dispatch office, and in a case where 

16 there was a crash or an incident and the 

17 pilot could not -- they could not find the 

18 NOPIC during this incident, they could 

19 contact the dispatch office, and the 

20 dispatcher could tell them exactly what 

21 hazardous materials are on that plane. 

22 Q The pilot-in-command also 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
66 

1 completes a notice to pilot-in-command form. 

2 Correct? 

3 A That is correct. 

4 Q What happens to the notice to 

5 pilot-in-command form that the pilot 

6 completes? 

7 A It's usually discarded. 

8 Q Okay. When you say, discarded, 

9 what do you mean? 

10 A Thrown away. 

11 Q Okay. So the only record that is 

12 maintained of the notice of pilot-in-command 

13 form is the records that are maintained by 

14 the dispatch office. Is that correct? 

15 A That is correct. 

16 Q Okay. Now, we also talked about 

17 on your direct -- or on your cross18 examination, we talked about the variation 

19 of civil penalties. Are you familiar with 

20 the term "totality of circumstances"? 

21 A I am. 

22 Q What does that mean, Mr. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com 
67 

1 Buchanan? 

2 A It is taking all of the situation 

3 found during the investigation into 

4 consideration when determining the 

5 appropriate civil penalty. 

6 Q Okay. So does that concept 

7 basically explain how civil penalties from 

8 one case to another could differ? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Buchanan, I want 

11 to draw your attention to the Government's 

12 Exhibit 100.01. If you take a look at 

13 page -- if you take a look at the first 

14 notification to pilot-in-command form there, 

15 do you see that? 

16 A Yes, sir. 

17 Q Now, at the bottom of that page, 

18 there's a signature. That signature says, 

19 Captain or dispatcher's signature. Correct? 

20 A Correct. 

21 Q Okay. From that particular 

22 signature, do you know whose signature that 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
68 

1 is? 

2 A I do not. 

3 Q Okay. Now, this particular 

4 notification to pilot-in-command form is 

5 dated June 22, 2011. Is that correct? 

6 A Yes, sir. 

7 Q How many hazardous material 

8 shipments are reflected on this notification 

9 of pilot-in-command? 

10 A It appears there are three on 

11 this specific document. 

12 Q Okay. Now, for the moment, I 

13 would just like to take a look at the first 

14 shipment that ends in 4105. Do you see 

15 that? 

16 A Yes, sir. 

17 Q Okay. Now, what is the proper 

18 shipping name that's listed there? 

19 A There is --

20 MR. DWORKIN: Objection. This is 

21 beyond the scope of cross-examination. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: It is beyond the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
69 

1 scope. Just for the record, the witness is 

2 referring to page 6 of 25 of Agency Exhibit 

3 100.01. Mr. Archier? 

4 MR. ARCHIER: Your ruling on 

5 that, Your Honor? 

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, it's 

7 sustained. It is beyond the scope. 

8 MR. ARCHIER: I have one -- I 

9 only have limited question on this matter, 

10 Your Honor. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I' 11 

12 allow -- it will go to weight, Mr. Dworkin. 

13 Your point's well taken, and it's well 

14 beyond the scope. I also will allow you 

15 inquiry --

16 MR. DWORKIN: Thank you, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: -- with respect 

19 to this. 

20 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead and 

22 repeat the question, Mr. Archier. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISlAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
70 

1 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

2 Q Yes. Mr. Buchanan, with regard 

3 to any of these shipments, is there a proper 

4 shipping name listed? 

5 A There is no proper shipping name 

6 for any one of the three listed there. 

7 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. I have no 

8 further questions, Your Honor. 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, do 

10 you want to make any inquiry? 

11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 

12 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

13 Q Just to kind of recap here, the 

14 NOPICs that you reviewed were the dispatch 

15 copies of the NOPICs. 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q And this was based upon 

18 information that the pilot had called in to 

19 dispatch. 

20 A Correct. 

21 Q Okay. Now, to the extent that 

22 there were gaps or errors in the dispatch 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
71 

1 copies of the NOPICs, as you sit here today, 

2 you have no idea what the pilot's own copy 

3 of the NOPIC said. Is that correct? 

4 A That is correct. 

5 Q And with respect to the gaps or 

6 the errors, the discrepancies in the 

7 dispatch copies of the NOPICs, as you sit 

8 here today, you don't know whether the pilot 

9 simply didn't mention that stuff, or whether 

10 the dispatcher forgot to write it, or 

11 whether the dispatcher misunderstood or 

12 misheard the pilot. Correct? 

13 A Correct. 

14 MR. DWORKIN: No further 

15 questions. 

16 MR. ARCHIER: I have one 

17 question, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. But he'll 

19 get half a question. 

20 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 

22 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
72 

1 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

2 Q Mr. Buchanan, shouldn't the 

3 notification of pilot-in-command form that 

4 the pilot completes, shouldn't that be 

5 almost identical with the notification of 

6 pilot-in-command form that's in the dispatch 

7 office? 

8 A It should be. Correct. 

9 Q Thank you. 

10 MR. DWORKIN: I'll spare you, 

11 Your Honor. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: You'll pass on 

13 your half? 

14 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Anything further 

16 from this witness, Mr. Archier? 

17 MR. ARCHIER: No, Your Honor. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, I'm going to 

19 instruct you not to discuss your testimony 

20 with anybody prlor to the conclusion of the 

21 hearing. There is no rule on witnesses. 

22 It's up to Mr. Archier whether you remain in 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com 
73 

1 the courtroom, remain ln the courthouse, or 

2 whether you're excused. 

3 (Whereupon, the witness was 

4 excused.) 

5 JUDGE GOODWIN: We'll use this 

6 opportunity to take a break. The Court will 

7 go off the record. It's 10:20. We actually 

8 have working clocks, Mr. Dworkin. The last 

9 couple times I've been in court, not only 

10 were there not working, we didn't have any 

11 two remotely close to the real time. 

12 So it's 10:20. We'll go off the 

13 record until about 25 minutes of. 

14 (Whereupon, a short recess was 

15 taken.) 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: We're on the 

17 record. 

18 Whereupon, 

19 PAUL DANIEL KLIMAS 

20 having been first duly sworn, was called as 

21 a witness herein and was examined and 

22 testified as follows: 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
74 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

2 State your full name for the record, and 

3 spell your first and last name. 

4 THE WITNESS: Paul Daniel Klimas, 

5 P-A-U-L, spelling of the last name is K-L-I6 M-A-S. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: You may be 

B seated. 

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your 

10 Honor. 

11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

12 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

13 Q Good morning, Mr. Klimas. How 

14 are you? 

15 A Good morning. I'm fine today. 

16 Thank you. 

17 Q Now, Mr. Klimas, I'm going to ask 

18 you to talk really loudly because the Judge 

19 has indicated that he sometimes has 

20 selective -- or that he doesn't hear 

21 everything 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: No. That's 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
75 

1 Dworkin's comment. 

2 MR. ARCHIER: Oh, okay. That was 

3 Mr. Dworkin. 

4 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

5 Q that he sometimes doesn't hear 

6 as well, so I'd appreciate it if you'd speak 

7 loudly. 

8 A I'll concentrate on that. Thank 

9 you. 

10 Q Okay. Thank you. Mr. Klimas, 

11 where do you work at? 

12 A The Federal Aviation 

13 Administration. 

14 Q Okay. And what is your title? 

15 A Special agent, hazardous 

16 materials. 

17 Q Okay. What do you do ln that 

18 job? 

19 A I'm responsible for the 

20 inspection of air carriers, hazardous 

21 materials shippers, hazardous materials 

22 freight-forwarding companies, FAA-certified 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
76 

1 repair stations as it pertains to their 

2 hazardous materials program and the 

3 application of their program. 

4 Q Okay. How long have you worked 

5 in that job? 

6 A Almost 15 years. 

7 Q Okay. Was that your first job ln 

8 the hazardous material arena? 

9 A No, it isn't. I was a hazardous 

10 materials specialist with the Federal 

11 Railroad Administration prior to that. 

12 Q What type of work did you do 

13 there? 

14 A Very similar to the work that 

15 I've done for the last 15 years with the 

16 FAA, yet substitute the railroad industry 

17 for the aviation industry. A lot of the 

18 same shippers, though. 

19 Q Okay. And how long were you 

20 there? 

21 A Seven years. 

22 Q Did you do any other hazardous 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
77 

1 material work prior to coming -- or prior to 

2 working with the Railroad --

3 A Yes. As a -- on active duty in 

4 the Department of Army and as a civilian in 

5 the Army. 

6 Q So how long have you worked in 

7 the hazardous material field? 

8 A Twenty-five years. 

9 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Klimas, you 

10 conducted the Martinaire comprehensive 

11 inspection that occurred on July 8, 2011. 

12 Is that correct? 

13 A Yes, I did. 

14 Q Okay. Tell the -- what is your 

15 understanding of the kind of operation that 

16 Martinaire is? 

17 A Martinaire operates feeder 

18 aircraft for -- primarily in this area, for 

19 DHL and United Parcel Service airlines. 

20 Q All right. Can you describe the 

21 purpose of the inspection that you conducted 

22 on July 8, 2011? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
78 

1 A Routine comprehensive inspection 

2 of Martinaire. We started off monitoring 

3 in- and outbound flights at DFW early that 

4 morning. I believe we started at around 

5 3:30. That's myself and another colleague, 

6 Jay Sarah, S-0-R-A-H. Once we were done 

7 looking at the final outbound flight that 

8 morning, we proceeded to Addison, which is 

9 where the -- their headquarters is and where 

10 their records are maintained. There is no 

11 repository or storage location or ability to 

12 view the DFW-oriented records at DFW for 

13 Martinaire. 

14 There we joined another -- the 

15 other FAA inspector in the area, Dennis 

16 Juenemann, and we completed that the 

17 portion, the records inspection, at Addison 

18 that afternoon. 

19 Q Okay. What specific documents 

20 did you look at when you were at the Addison 

21 facility? 

22 A At the Addison facility, we 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
79 

1 looked at the hazardous materials training 

2 records for their employees, dispatchers, 

3 crew members specifically; their stores 

4 operation. The stores operation could 

5 possibly have some hazardous materials 

6 shipper applications. That's shipping out 

7 parts that might contain hazardous 

8 materials, batteries, fire extinguishers. 

9 We also took a look at the 90-day or the 

10 NOPIC file. 

11 Q Okay. And when you say, the 

12 NOPIC file, the -- what do you mean by 

13 NOPIC? 

14 A Notice to pilot-in-command or N15 0-P-C. There's three or four different 

16 acronyms that are commonly used. 

17 Martinaire, I believe, calls them an N-0-P18 c. 

19 Q Okay. And what is an NOPC used 

20 for? 

21 A It's a summary to -- let me step 

22 back. It's, in essence, a summary of the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
80 

1 hazardous materials that are on board that 

2 flight, a brief description as well as the 

3 location where those items are loaded 

4 upon you know, on their aircraft. 

5 Q Now, I want to talk a little bit 

6 about the findings that you made at -- in 

7 your investigation. 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q Describe to the Court what you 

10 discovered during your inspection. 

11 A We --

12 Q Regarding the NOPICs. 

13 A Regarding the NOPICs? Many 

14 conflicting NOPICs regarding UN proper -- UN 

15 identification numbers, which each hazardous 

16 material has a definitive identification 

17 number; conflicting with proper shipping 

18 names, hazard class, missing special permit 

19 numbers, which are also required. 

20 Q Okay. Now, how many shipments 

21 did you look at during that inspection, or 

22 how many shipments did your inspection 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wvvw.nealrgross.com 
81 

1 record? 

2 A How many -- would you please 

3 rephrase your question? 

4 Q Hazardous material shipments did 

5 your 

6 A How many notices to pilot --

7 NOPICs did we look at? 

8 Q Yes. 

9 A Approximately 400. 

10 Q Okay. And of the 400, how many 

11 notice of pilot-in-command forms did you 

12 find discrepancies with? 

13 A Twelve. 

14 Q Okay. And of those 12 

15 notification of pilot-in-command forms, how 

16 many shipments were reflected in those 

17 notice of pilot-in-command forms? 

18 A Seventeen. 

19 Q Okay. Did you discover any other 

20 issues during your inspection that day? 

21 A No, I don't believe so. 

22 Everything else was in order. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
82 

1 Q Okay. Now, after that --

2 subsequent to that inspection, you created 

3 an investigative report. Correct? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Okay. And part of that 

6 investigative report is your -- was a 

7 statement that you prepared. Correct? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q All right. 

10 MR. ARCHIER: And, Your Honor, 

11 with your permission, I'd like to show Mr. 

12 Klimas a copy of his special agent statement 

13 that he prepared, that Mr. Buchanan 

14 testified to. 

15 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. Thank you. 

16 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

17 Q (Handing document.) 

18 A Thank you. 

19 Q Mr. Klimas, I'm showing you what 

20 is marked as Government Exhibit 100.01. 

21 Take a moment and look at it, will you 

22 please. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com 
83 

1 A (Perusing document.) 

2 Q Do you recognize it? 

3 A Yes, I do. 

4 Q Okay. What is it? 

5 A This is a -- my statement 

6 regarding this inspection. 

7 Q Okay. Now, during your 

8 inspection, you looked at various NOPICs. 

9 Correct? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q And are those NOPICs attached to 

12 this statement? 

13 A Yes, they are. 

14 Q Okay. How would you describe the 

15 condition of the NOPICs that you found? 

16 A Really poor condition, horrible. 

17 THE REPORTER: Sir, excuse me. I 

18 need for you to get by the mike. 

19 MR. ARCHIER: Sorry. 

20 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 

21 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

22 Q How would you describe those 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
84 

1 NOPICs that you found? 

2 A Not in compliance with the 

3 regulations. They were -- in my 

4 consideration, they were in horrible 

5 condition. 

6 Q Okay. And why do you -- can you 

7 be specific with regard to horrible 

8 condition? 

9 A Conflicting information. The UN 

10 number, the identification number, not 

11 matching the proper shipping name. 

12 Q Okay. Mr. Klimas, I'd like to 

13 take a look at the notification of pilot-in14 command, the first one that you that is a 

15 part of your statement. Would you go there 

16 and take a look at it. I believe it's page 

17 6 of this document. 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: The first --

19 MR. ARCHIER: Notice to pilot 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. The first 

21 NOPIC is -- I've paginated as page 6 of 25. 

22 BY MR. ARCHIER: 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
85 

1 Q Okay. Are you there, Mr. Klimas? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Okay. Are there -- this 

4 particular notification of pilot-in-command 

5 is dated 6/22/11. Can you describe to the 

6 Court what type of discrepancies exist on 

7 this particular document? 

8 A Yes, I can. There were three 

9 shipments containing hazardous materials on 

10 this flight. The first one was missing a 

11 proper shipping name. The second one -- the 

12 second line on that first shipment, the UN 

13 number indicates it's 19 -- UN number 1956, 

14 compressed gas NOS, but yet they list a 

15 hazard class as class I which is an 

16 explosive item. 

17 Q So those two are incompatible. 

18 A They're not correct. Nothing 

19 matches up. A UN number 1956 is a gas, not 

20 an explosive. 

21 Q Okay. Can you move to the next 

22 tracking number. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
86 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q What's the shipping name there? 

3 A It's listed as Boehringer. 

4 Q What kind of hazard material is 

5 Boehringer? 

6 A There isn't a hazardous material 

7 under the name Boehringer. 

8 Q Okay. So what you're telling me, 

9 if I go to the hazardous material 

10 regulations, I'm not going to be able to 

11 find a hazardous material by the name of 

12 Boehringer. 

13 A No, you're not. 

14 Q Okay. Are there any other 

15 discrepancies with regard to that particular 

16 shipment? 

17 A Other than missing a packing 

18 group, no. 

19 Q Okay. What about the third 

20 tracking number? 

21 A Much like the second one, proper 

22 shipping name being JCAH, there isn't a 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
87 

1 proper shipping name for JCAH. 

2 Q Okay. Now, if you look at the 

3 signatory box down at the bottom, are you 

4 able to determine who completed this? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Okay. 

7 A And that's not uncommon. It's a 

8 signature. 

9 Q Right. Did you obtain this 

10 particular notification of pilot-in-command 

11 form from the dispatch office? 

12 A It was in the 90-day file at the 

13 Martinaire headquarters. 

14 Q At the Martinaire headquarters. 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Okay. Do you know whether 

17 someone at the dispatch office completed 

18 this form, or the pilot-in-command? 

19 A I'm assuming that someone at the 

20 dispatch office completed this form. That's 

21 just an assumption. 

22 Q Why are you making that 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
88 

1 assumption? 

2 A Because that's how Martinaire 

3 maintains their records. 

4 Q Okay. Should the notification of 

5 the pilot-in-command form that the pilot 

6 fills out and the notification of the pilot7 in-command form that the dispatch office 

8 complete, should that be have the same 

9 kind of information on it? 

10 A It should. 

11 Q Now, can you go in a little bit 

12 more detail with regard to when you did your 

13 inspection, how were you able to determine 

14 what the hazardous material was if it had no 

15 shipping name? What type of determination 

16 did you make? Did you go to any other 

17 documents? 

18 A I had to go to the United Parcel 

19 Service and ask them via their tracking 

20 number or DHL for those documents, and in 

21 some cases, the air waybill numbers were 

22 incorrectly transcribed by -- or provided by 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
89 

1 the pilot to the dispatcher. The dispatcher 

2 wrote down the wrong number, and those 

3 some of those could not be acquired. 

4 Q Okay. Now 

5 A To verify. 

6 Q how many notification of 

7 pilot-in-command forms would you have taken 

8 a look at that day? 

9 A We had three people looking at 

10 those that day. 

11 Q Okay. 

12 A Dennis Juenemann concentrated 

13 primarily on the training records, so once 

14 he completed those, he assisted Jay Sorah 

15 and myself in inspecting the remainder of 

16 the pilot notification forms. 

17 Q Okay. Now, you pulled a sample 

18 of approximately 12 notification to pilot19 in-command forms that had discrepancy. Is 

20 that correct? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Okay. Could you have pulled 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
90 

1 more? 

2 A We could have. 

3 Q Okay. And what are you basing 

4 that statement on? 

5 A There were others with 

6 deficiencies on them. 

7 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Klimas, I want to 

8 talk to you a moment about corrective 

9 action. 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q And are you familiar with 

12 Martinaire's corrective action? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Okay. When was the last time you 

15 conducted an inspection at Martinaire? 

16 A December 2013. 

17 Q And when you conducted that 

18 inspection, did you investigate the 

19 notification to pilot-in-command forms? 

20 A Yes, we did. 

21 Q Okay. What was your finding 

22 about those notification to pilot-in-command 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
91 

1 forms? 

2 A We still -- we found many 

3 deficiencies. 

4 Q Okay. I want to talk for a 

5 moment about the violation history. Are you 

6 familiar with Martinaire's violation 

7 history? 

8 A Yes, I am. 

9 Q Tell me what you know -- tell the 

10 Court what you know about Martinaire's 

11 violation history? 

12 A I know that there was a previous 

13 violation out of Northwest Mountain for 

14 pilot notification records similar to what 

15 we came across during this inspection, and 

16 it was approximately the same time or 

17 shortly after this inspection, there was 

18 another hazardous materials-related case 

19 involving a shipment out of the Great Lakes 

20 Region, out of the Chicago area. 

21 Q Okay. Mr. Klimas, is it 

22 important that the notification of pilot-inNEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
92 

1 command forms be filled out correctly? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Why? 

4 A For emergency response 

5 procedures. For example, if there is an 

6 incident or an accident involving items 

7 classified as hazardous material, emergency 

8 responders need to know what's on board that 

9 aircraft and where it's located. 

10 Q Are you aware of any examples 

11 where that's come up in the aviation 

12 industry? 

13 A 1999, FedEx had an incident in 

14 Upstate New York excuse me -- Newburgh, 

15 New York, involving hazardous materials on 

16 board an aircraft, and emergency responders 

17 would not weren't able to complete trying 

18 to rescue or save that aircraft. 

19 Q And what happened to the 

20 aircraft? 

21 A It burned. 

22 Q Okay. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 WNW.nealrgross.com 
93 

1 A No longer useable. 

2 Q So who does the notification of 

3 the pilot-in-command form, who does it 

4 protect? 

5 A It protects the crew member and 

6 those if the incident were to take place in 

7 a populated area, you know, those 

8 individuals and that property. 

9 Q Okay. So it also, in addition to 

10 the crew member, it protects the public at 

11 large. 

12 A Anybody around that potential 

13 incident. Yes. 

14 Q Okay. And you also say it does 

15 protect first responders. Is that correct? 

16 A Certainly. 

17 Q Okay. 

18 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, I have 

19 no further questions. 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin. 

21 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. Thank you. 

22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
94 

1 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

2 Q Good morning, Mr. Klimas. How 

3 are you? 

4 A Good morning, Mr. Dworkin. 

5 Q Okay. So in July 2011, you did a 

6 routine comprehensive HAZMAT inspection of 

7 Martinaire. 

8 A Yes, sir. 

9 Q You started at DFW to observe 

10 their operations there. You found no 

11 discrepancies. 

12 A None at DFW whatsoever. 

13 Q And then you went to Addison. 

14 You reviewed their training records for 

15 dispatchers and pilots. 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q And no discrepancies. 

18 A None. 

19 Q You reviewed their stores 

20 operations. No discrepancies. 

21 A That's correct. 

22 Q As a matter of fact, would it be 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
95 

1 fair to say that until you got to the 

2 NOPICs, Martinaire was passing with flying 

3 colors? 

4 A That's fair to say. 

5 Q And by the way, speaking of 

6 training, the regulations require that the 

7 training be done once every 24 months. 

8 A That's correct. 

9 Q Is that correct? 

10 A Yes, sir. 

11 Q But Martinaire trains once every 

12 12 months. 

13 A They have an annual training 

14 program. Yes. 

15 Q So in other words, they exceed 

16 regulatory requirements. 

17 A They do. 

18 Q Okay. And with respect to the 

19 NOPICs, these this was the 90-day file 

20 maintained by dispatch. 

21 A That's the carrier 90-day file. 

22 Yes. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.neatrgross.com 
96 

1 Q All right. And as you sit here 

2 today, with respect to the 12 forms that 

3 there were discrepancies in, you don't know 

4 who authored those forms, whether it was 

5 actually the pilot or whether it was the 

6 dispatcher transcribing certain information 

7 given by the pilot. 

8 A For 100 percent certainty, no, 

9 other than their program and we're told 

10 these are radioed in from the crew members 

11 or telephoned in and transcribed by the 

12 dispatchers. 

13 Q Okay. And with respect to the 

14 errors or the blank spaces or whatever, you 

15 don't know whether that was a transcription 

16 error on the part of the dispatcher or 

17 whether they didn't hear it, or whatever. 

18 A There's no way of knowing. 

19 Q Okay. So as you sit here today, 

20 you don't know what, if any, information the 

21 pilot actually called in to dispatch. 

22 A The assumption is this is the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
97 

1 official record, and that the dispatcher 

2 will record precisely what the captain 

3 relays aboard-- what's on board that 

4 flight. 

5 Q Now, the -- and this form is 

6 called a notification to pilot-in-command. 

7 A Yes, it is. 

8 Q And it basically notifies the 

9 pilot as to what he or she has on board. 

10 A That's one of its -- that's the 

11 purpose. 

12 Q Okay. Now, ln Martinaire's case, 

13 the pilot, when he or she accepts the 

14 hazardous materials shipment from DHL or 

15 UPS, gets a little coupon. Correct? 

16 A The hazardous material shipping 

17 paper is often referred to as a coupon. 

18 Q Right. And so the pilot gets a 

19 coupon which basically prepared by DHL or 

20 UPS, which basically has the very same 

21 information that would go in the Martinaire 

22 NOPIC form. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 , www.nealrgross.com 
98 

1 A Outside of the location of the 

2 material on board the aircraft, it's the 

3 same form-- it's the same information. 

4 Q It's the same information. And 

5 ostensibly, it's the pilot who loads the 

6 airplane. Is that correct? 

7 A They do they assist, and they 

8 monitor the loading. 

9 Q So the pilot would know where 

10 things are on his or her airplane. 

11 A Hopefully. 

12 Q These are single-pilot aircraft. 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Correct? Where in HMR 175.33 

15 does it state that the NOPIC is to be used 

16 for emergency response procedures or should 

17 be available for emergency responders? 

18 A It does not state that. 

19 Q Are there any FAA written 

20 opinions or publicly available information 

21 which states that the NOPIC is to be used 

22 for emergency response purposes? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrg ross. com 
99 

1 A There is a PHMSA letter of 

2 interpretation that alludes to -- it states 

3 specifically, emergency responders, and 

4 being able to have that information in event 

5 of an incident 

6 Q And this is a PHMSA --

7 A Pipeline and Hazardous Materials 

8 Safety Administration. 

9 Q Okay. But that's not an FAA 

10 document. 

11 A It is still -- it's not an FAA 

12 document. 

13 Q Are pilots supposed to be 

14 familiar with PHMSA letters of 

15 interpretation? 

16 A I wouldn't expect them to be 

17 necessarily. 

18 Q Would you expect an air carrier 

19 to be familiar PHMSA interpretations? 

20 A I would. 

21 Q Is there anything in FAR 119 or 

22 FAR 135 that requires a carrier be familiar 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
100 

1 with PHMSA interpretations? 

2 A I don't believe so. Not ln my 

3 experience. 

4 Q Is there anything in Martinaire's 

5 general operating manual or GOM that 

6 requires they be familiar with PHMSA 

7 interpretations? 

8 A I don't believe so. 

9 Q Are there any FAA handbooks or 

10 orders that state that the NOPIC, ln 

11 addition to serving as a notice to the 

12 pilot-in-command, is also to be used for 

13 emergency response procedures? 

14 A I haven't read any. 

15 Q So aside from Martinaire, Slnce 

16 you're at the Dallas FSDO -- is that 

17 correct? 

18 A I'm headquartered out of the 

19 regional office. 

20 Q At the regional office in Fort 

21 Worth. 

22 A But I am a field inspector. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
101 

1 Q Okay. So as a field inspector, 

2 you would have jurisdiction over not only 

3 Martinaire, but for instance, American 

4 Airlines. 

5 A I'm the primary HAZMAT inspector 

6 for American Airlines here. Yes. 

7 Q Okay. So when American Airlines 

8 prepares a notice to pilot-in-command, 

9 basically that's being done by somebody in 

10 some office somewhere. They know what's 

11 coming on board the airplane. They prepare 

12 the notice to pilot-in-command, and they 

13 give it to the flight crew, so --

14 A It's done by --

15 Q --the flight crew knows what's 

16 on the aircraft. 

17 A Generally, unless there's a 

18 change, a rejection of a shipment or a 

19 change in the shipment. Those are the only 

20 times a cargo planner would not complete 

21 that prior to 

22 Q Okay. And that's the procedure 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
102 

1 used by most air carriers. It's prepared by 

2 somebody in their -- in some department and 

3 given to the flight crew. 

4 A I don't know about most air 

5 carriers, but the larger air carriers. 

6 That's United, American. 

7 Q Okay. 

8 A That's been my experience. Yes. 

9 Q Martinaire is just the opposite. 

10 It's the pilot who prepares his or her own 

11 NOPIC. 

12 A I -- right. It's a little 

13 different. I've run across a number of 

14 others, but few and far between. 

15 Q A memo to self. Correct? 

16 A It's a little different. Yes. 

17 Q So you sent Martinaire a letter 

18 of investigation. 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q And they 

21 A My office sent it. I drafted it, 

22 and my supervisor signed it. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
103 

1 Q Okay. And did Martinaire respond 

2 to the letter of investigation? 

3 A Yes, they did. 

4 Q And 

5 MR. DWORKIN: Do we have Exhibit 

6 R-1, Your Honor? This is a spare copy. 

7 This is Mr. Buchanan's copy. 

8 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

9 Q Let me show you a copy of R-1. 

10 Would you take a look at that. 

11 A (Perusing document.) 

12 Q What is Exhibit R-1? 

13 A It's the letter of response. 

14 Q And is that the letter of 

15 response that you received from Martinaire? 

16 A It's a copy of. Yes. 

17 Q Okay. And that's over whose 

18 signature? 

19 A Mr. Rusinowitz. 

20 Q And what is his position with 

21 Martinaire? 

22 A Executive Vlce president. He --

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
104 

1 from my -- you know, mentally for me, he's 

2 the operations manager. He's -- he runs the 

3 show there. 

4 Q Okay. And so when Mr. Rusinowitz 

5 sends a letter, eh's speaking for the entire 

6 company. 

7 A That's my understanding. 

8 Q Yes. And in that letter of 

9 response, did Martinaire address the FAA's 

10 concerns? 

11 A They did. 

12 Q Did Martinaire take corrective 

13 action? 

14 A They did. 

15 Q Was the corrective action 

16 comprehensive? 

17 A Would you mind restating the 

18 question? 

19 Q Was the corrective action 

20 comprehensive? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Was the corrective action swift? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrgross.com 
105 

1 A It was swift. 

2 Q Is there anything that Martinaire 

3 should have done that they didn't do in 

4 response to this letter of investigation? 

5 A They addressed the findings in 

6 this letter. 

7 Q Okay. And they implemented 

8 corrective actions. 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q Okay. Are there any corrective 

11 actions that they should have implemented 

12 that they did not implement? 

13 A I can only speak to the December 

14 2013 

15 Q We'll get to that. 

16 A -- inspection. 

17 Q We'll get to that. But up 

18 through December '13 

19 A At this point, I was satisfied 

20 with the corrective actions provided to. 

21 Q Did anybody from your office go 

22 to Martinaire at any time prior to December 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234A433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
106 

1 13 and say, You know, we have your response 

2 to the letter of investigation regarding 

3 these NOPIC errors, and, you know, there's 

4 some additional stuff we think you ought to 

5 do? 

6 A Not that I'm aware of. 

7 Q Was there anything ln 

8 Martinaire's response to which you or the 

9 FAA disagreed? 

10 A In this response, no. 

11 Q How would you describe the 

12 working relationship between your office and 

13 Martinaire? 

14 A I like the people. I think they 

15 work hard. I think that they've got a lot 

16 on their plate, so I take that into 

17 consideration, of course. It's good, 

18 especially with Mr. Rusinowitz. 

19 Q Would you say it's a cooperative 

20 working relationship? 

21 A It has been, yes, in the past 

22 certainly. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
107 

1 Q And when the FAA expresses its 

2 concerns, Martinaire addresses them. 

3 A Mr. Rusinowitz certainly does 

4 address them. Yes. 

5 Q To your satisfaction. 

6 A He always has. 

7 Q Let's talk about December '13. 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q You conducted another inspection 

10 of Martinaire. 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Was this similar to the July 

13 inspection? 

14 A July 2011 inspection, yes. 

15 Similar process. 

16 Q Okay. So in other words, you 

17 looked at the operations. You then went to 

18 Addison to check training records, stores. 

19 Everything's fine until you get to the 

20 NOPICs. 

21 A Outside of an increased number of 

22 flight inspections, inbound and outbound on 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
108 

1 different days leading up to, it was an 

2 identical inspection. 

3 Q Okay. And again, the only 

4 deficiencies were the NOPICs. 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q So when these NOPIC deficiencies 

7 were discovered, what, if anything, did 

8 Martinaire do? 

9 A We had a nice discussion about 

10 what better that they could do to try to 

11 solve this. Obviously, things weren't fixed 

12 from the 2011 inspection, and I have not 

13 been back up. It's my understanding that 

14 they've put in an extensive program, but I 

15 have yet to evaluate that. 

16 Q Have you been invited to come and 

17 evaluate the program? 

18 A I have. 

19 Q And why have you not gone? 

20 A Because we were waiting for this 

21 process to pass. 

22 Q So in other words, you didn't 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
109 

1 want to go and evaluate the program until 

2 after the hearing. 

3 A That wasn't my -- that's -- yes. 

4 Q But that wasn't your call. 

5 A Not necessarily. We thought it 

6 wasn't prudent until this was done. 

7 Q Okay. Now, with respect to the 

8 violation history, you referenced two 

9 previous cases. One was a Northwest 

10 Mountain case, and that was a case where the 

11 pilot didn't prepare a NOPIC. Is that 

12 correct? 

13 A That's correct. 

14 Q And because he had run out of 

15 NOPIC forms. is that your understanding? 

16 A I believe that I remember seeing 

17 that he didn't have the correct form or, you 

18 know, some way of annotating it. 

19 Q Okay. And Martinaire settled 

20 that for something like $20,000. 

21 A I know it went out for one 

22 amount, and there was a settlement made. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
110 

1 Right. 

2 Q For less than what the FAA had 

3 wanted. 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q Okay. And do you recall that 

6 settlement was also made without admission 

7 of liability? 

8 A I believe I remember reading that 

9 somewhere ln the body or the language. 

10 Q Okay. And then there was the 

11 Great Lakes Region case, and that's also 

12 known as the Purple Power case. 

13 A Purple Power. I can't forget 

14 that one. 

15 Q Okay. And that was a case where 

16 the pilot on the side was washing airplanes. 

17 Correct? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q And so he went to Home Depot, 

20 bought some Purple Power cleaner, and 

21 without telling anybody at Martinaire, took 

22 this jug of Purple Power and put it on the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
111 

1 airplane. Is that correct? 

2 A Okay. I don't know about where 

3 he got it. I just know that there was 

4 Purple Power undeclared as a hazardous 

5 material. 

6 Q And unbeknownst to Martinaire. 

7 Correct? 

8 A That I couldn't tell you, but I 

9 just know that there was an undeclared 

10 shipment on the flight. 

11 Q Okay. And that case was also 

12 settled. Correct? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q So Martinaire has had a lot fewer 

15 HAZMAT cases than American Airlines or 

16 Southwest Airlines. Right? 

17 A I can only speak to American 

18 Airlines. 

19 Q Okay. Have they had fewer HAZMAT 

20 cases than American Airlines? 

21 A Yes. Much larger company as 

22 well. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
112 

1 Q Okay. And has American ever been 

2 confronted with a $206,550 HAZMAT civil 

3 penalty? 

4 A That I'm not aware of. 

5 MR. DWORKIN: No further 

6 questions. Thank you. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect? 

8 MR. ARCHIER: I have no further 

9 questions. 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Sir, 

11 you're excused. I'm going to admonish you 

12 not to discuss your testimony with anybody 

13 prior to the conclusion of the hearing. 

14 It's up to Mr. Archier whether you have to 

15 remain or whether you're excused. 

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your 

17 Honor. 

18 (Whereupon, the witness was 

19 excused.) 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Additional 

21 witnesses, Mr. Archier? 

22 MR. ARCHIER: No, Your Honor. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
113 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: You rest? 

2 MR. ARCHIER: Yes. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: You say that with 

4 hesitation. 

5 MR. ARCHIER: Well, Your Honor, 

6 let me make this reservation, Your Honor. 

7 May we call Mr. Buchanan as a rebuttal 

8 witness after we hear the Respondent's 

9 witness? 

10 MR. DWORKIN: It's his case. I 

11 have no control over who they call as a 

12 rebuttal witness. 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: It doesn't matter 

14 to me. 

15 MR. ARCHIER: That's what we'd 

16 like to reserve, because I presume you're 

17 going to put on Mr. Rusinowitz --

18 MR. DWORKIN: Rusinowitz. 

19 MR. ARCHIER: Yes. Am I correct? 

20 MR. DWORKIN: Yes. 

21 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. All right. 

22 And then if we need to, we'll call Mr. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 WNW. nealrgross.com 
114 

1 Buchanan as a rebuttal. 

2 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. How long 

3 do you think he'll take? 

4 MR. DWORKIN: Mr. Rusinowitz may 

5 be on the stand for an hour, hour and a 

6 half. 

7 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. It's ten 

8 after 11:00. Why don't we break for lunch 

9 now. There's no cafeteria in the building, 

10 so let's shoot for getting back about 12:30. 

11 MR. DWORKIN: Sure. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: And, you know, if 

13 everybody gets here early, we'll go on the 

14 record. If you get here, it's because we 

15 couldn't find a place to eat. 

16 MR. ARCHIER: So 12:30? 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Shoot for 

18 12:30. So we'll go off the record. 

19 (Whereupon, at 11:10 a.m., the 

20 hearing in the above-entitled matter was 

21 recessed, to reconvene at 12:30 p.m., this 

22 same day, Wednesday, June 18, 2014.) 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
115 

1 

2 (12:25 p.m.) 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 

4 record. 

5 Mr. Dworkin, I believe the ball's 

6 ln your court. 

7 MR. DWORKIN: Thank you, Your 

8 Honor. Mr. Rusinowitz 

9 JUDGE GOODWIN: Stand and raise 

10 your right hand. 

11 Whereupon, 

12 ALAN RUSINOWITZ 

13 having been first duly sworn, was called as 

14 a witness herein and was examined and 

15 testified as follows: 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Please be seated. 

17 State your full name for the record, and 

18 spell your first and last name. 

19 THE WITNESS: It's Alan 

20 Rusinowitz, A-L-A-N, R-U-S-I-N-0-W-I-T-Z. 

21 DIRECT EXAMINATION 

22 BY MR. DWORKIN: 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
116 

1 Q And your business address, sir? 

2 A 4553 Glenn, G-L-E-N-N, Curtiss, 

3 C-U-R-T-I-S-S, Drive, in Addison, A-D-D-I-S4 0-N, Texas 75001. 

5 Q Are you employed, sir? 

6 A Excuse me? 

7 Q Are you employed? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q By whom? 

10 A Martinaire Aviation, LLC. 

11 Q And your capacity with 

12 Martinaire? 

13 A Executive vice president, chief 

14 operating officer. 

15 Q And as executive vice president 

16 and COO, what are your principal duties and 

17 responsibilities? 

18 A Well, reporting directly to the 

19 president, I oversee all daily and ongoing 

20 planning functions for operations, 

21 maintenance, dispatch and finance. 

22 Q How long have you been with 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
117 

1 Martinaire? 

2 A October of 2014 -- or excuse 

3 me -- October of 2000. 

4 Q And before your present position, 

5 did you have a prior position with 

6 Martinaire? 

7 A No. 

8 Q So you've always held this 

9 position with Martinaire. 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q And prior to Martinaire, what was 

12 your employment? 

13 A I was with Pan Am Aviation 

14 Academy, based in Orlando, Florida, from 

15 March of 2000 to October of 2000. 

16 Q And what was your position with 

17 Pan Am Aviation Academy? 

18 A I actually forgot my exact title. 

19 I was head of Ab Initio marketing and 

20 recruitment and pilot recruitment. 

21 Q And what sort of thing -- what is 

22 Pan Am Aviation Academy's business? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
118 

1 A They were in the flight training. 

2 Q And flight training for whom? 

3 A Airlines, private corporations, 

4 and I was in the department that was to 

5 recruit pilot, to train them to be airline 

6 pilots, to get them all their licenses and 

7 certifications. 

8 Q Prior to Pan Am Aviation Academy, 

9 what was your employment? 

10 A I was with Business Express 

11 Airlines in Portsmouth and then Dover, New 

12 Hampshire. 

13 Q And what was Business Express 

14 Airlines? 

15 A They were a 121 regional airline. 

16 Q What was your position with them? 

17 A Last position was director of 

18 operations. 

19 Q And how long were you with BEX? 

20 A This is where it gets to be a 

21 complicated answer. I was on and off with 

22 Business Express Airlines for seven years, 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
119 

1 eight years. 

2 Q And prior to Business Express, 

3 what was your employment? 

4 A During the first few years with 

5 Business Express, I was either employed by 

6 them or by Flight Safety International. 

7 Q And what was your position with 

8 Flight Safety International? 

9 A Director of standards and Beech 

10 1900 program manager. 

11 Q So I take it that Flight Safety 

12 International and Business Express had some 

13 deal whereby Flight Safety was providing the 

14 training for Business Express pilots? 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q And before BEX/Flight Safety, 

17 what was your employment? 

18 A I was a flight engineer or second 

19 officer for Trump Airlines or Trump Shuttle. 

20 Q And that was between New York and 

21 where? 

22 A We flew New York-Boston, New 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
120 

1 York-Washington, and charters all over the 

2 country. 

3 Q And how long were you with Trump 

4 Shuttle? 

5 A Two years. 

6 Q Before Trump Shuttle, what was 

7 your employment? 

8 A East Hampton Air. I'm sorry. 

9 I'm in 1989 now, so I'm going back a bit. 

10 Q And who is East Hampton Air? 

11 A They were a 135, both scheduled 

12 and charter airline, based out of East 

13 Hampton Long Island. 

14 Q And for how long? 

15 A I believe two years. 

16 Q For how long have you been 

17 employed in the aviation industry? 

18 A I guess since about 17 years old, 

19 so 35 years. 

20 Q Are you a pilot? 

21 A Yes, sir. 

22 Q What type of pilot certificate do 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
121 

1 you hold? 

2 A Airline transport pilot. 

3 Q And how many hours do you have? 

4 A Approximately 5,500 flight hours, 

5 about a thousand hours as a flight engineer, 

6 and I've taught approximately 3,500 hours in 

7 simulators. 

8 Q Now, let's talk about Martinaire. 

9 Martinaire is a 135 cargo carrier. Is that 

10 correct? 

11 A Yes, sir. 

12 Q Are they what one would consider 

13 to be a small business? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q How many employees does 

16 Martinaire have? 

17 A Currently less than 90. 

18 Q And how many airplanes does 

19 Martinaire operate? 

20 A Thirty-four. 

21 Q Are all these aircraft owned? 

22 A No, sir. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
122 

1 Q How many of the 34 aircraft does 

2 Martinaire own? 

3 A Twenty-one. 

4 Q And the others are leased? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Now, Martinaire Aviation is a 

7 limited liability company. Is that correct? 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q How many members are there of the 

10 LLC? 

11 A Three. 

12 Q In 2011, did Martinaire earn a 

13 profit? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q Do you recall roughly how much 

16 that profit was? 

17 A No. 

18 Q In my trial brief, I indicated 

19 that in 2011 Martinaire's net profit was 

20 $197,169. Is that number more or less 

21 ballpark? 

22 A Yes. I think it was in the 200-

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
123 

1 neighborhood. Yes. 

2 Q Okay. And how many flights per 

3 month did Martinaire operate in the period 

4 of 2011 through 2013? 

5 A Averaged about 1,500 flights per 

6 month or flight hours. 

7 Q And how many flights does that 

8 translate into? 

9 A Roughly about the same. 1,500 

10 hours could equate to about 16- to 1,700 

11 actual legs or flights. 

12 Q And I take it that most of these 

13 flights are relatively short. 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q And it's carrying cargo as a 

16 feeder for UPS and DHL? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q In 2012, did Martinaire earn a 

19 profit? 

20 A No, sir. 

21 Q And in 2013, did Martinaire earn 

22 a profit? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
124 

1 A No. 

2 Q And how about year-to-date in 

3 2014? Has Martinaire earned a profit? 

4 A We're still operating at a loss. 

5 Q Over the past three years, has 

6 the number of employees gone up or down at 

7 Martinaire? 

8 A Down. 

9 Q And over the past three years, 

10 has the number of aircraft gone up or down? 

11 A Down. 

12 Q And to what do you attribute the 

13 downward trend in employment and numbers of 

14 aircraft operated? 

15 A Result of the economy itself, 

16 less shipping, and if the carrier we're 

17 contracted with doesn't need the 3,000-pound 

18 load that we carry and could go to a smaller 

19 aircraft, they'll either bid it for a 

20 smaller aircraft or do away with the route 

21 and just plan on trucking the freight. 

22 Q And the bulk of the Martinaire 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
125 

1 fleet consists of what type aircraft? 

2 A Cessna 208 Caravan. 

3 Q And could you describe the 

4 Caravan for us? 

5 A Looks like a box and flies like a 

6 box. It's a single-engine airplane. It 

7 holds approximately 3,000 pounds of cargo, 

8 based on the average volume of a UPS or a 

9 DHL shipment, about 450 cubic feet of cargo. 

10 Q And are these flown by one pilot? 

11 A It's one pilot, and there's one 

12 engine on the airplane. 

13 Q Of the 34 aircraft that 

14 Martinaire operates, how many are Cessna 

15 Caravans? 

16 A Thirty-one. 

17 Q What are the other three? 

18 A The other are Beech 1900 twin19 engine turboprop aircraft that are flown by 

20 one pilot and can hold approximately 4,500 

21 pounds of cargo. 

22 Q And these are all operated under 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
126 

1 FAR 135? 

2 A Correct. 

3 Q Are you familiar with the NOPIC 

4 requirement set forth in the hazardous 

5 materials regulations, Section 175.33? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q What is the purpose for a NOPIC? 

8 A It's to provide the pilot-in9 command the information of what he is 

10 carrying that may be a hazard or potential 

11 danger. 

12 Q And have you just dealt with the 

13 hazardous materials regulations in your 

14 employment with Martinaire, or have you 

15 dealt with them ln your employment with 

16 other air carriers and other entities ln the 

17 aviation business? 

18 A With other air carriers also. 

19 Q Have you ever known of a 

20 requirement in the HMRs that specify that 

21 NOPICs are to be used for first responders? 

22 A No, sir. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
127 

1 Q Could you -- when Martinaire 

2 picks up a parcel for one of its feeder 

3 flights, could you describe for us the 

4 procedure that's followed by the Martinaire 

5 pilot in picking up this parcel? 

6 A Okay. First, to correct you, we 

7 do not pick up the parcels. They are 

8 brought to us at an outstation. They're 

9 either brought to us by a UPS or DHL 

10 vehicle, or at the main hub or a gateway, 

11 they're brought out from the sort facility 

12 to the airplane. 

13 The pilot who we 

14 Q And is that true whether it's an 

15 outbound or an inbound shipment? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q Okay. 

18 A The pilot is notified -- well, 

19 the pilot inspects every package that would 

20 go on the airplane. He's there to supervise 

21 and, if needed, assist ln the loading of the 

22 aircraft. So he looks at the packages. We 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234A433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
128 

1 have a good relationship, and DHL and UPS 

2 are very well trained, in that they'll also 

3 put aside and make sure that the pilot 

4 personally inspects, you know, six-side 

5 inspection on the packages, make sure 

6 they're not leaking, broken, et cetera, as 

7 required by the regs, properly labeled, and 

8 then we'll --that it has the proper 

9 information if a NOPIC is needed to be 

10 filled out. 

11 Q And when UPS or DHL bring you a 

12 HAZMAT parcel or a HAZMAT shipment, is there 

13 some paperwork that goes along with that? 

14 A Yes. Typically there's what 

15 we've referred to as the coupon that is with 

16 the package. 

17 Q And what does the coupon do? 

18 A Well, the coupon informs the 

19 pilot of what is in the package, so it will 

20 have the UN ID number, proper shipping name, 

21 packing class, group, restrictions, weight. 

22 You know, is it pounds or kilograms or 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wvvvv. nealrg ross .com 
129 

1 ounces; is it liters or milliliters; you 

2 know, the type of quantity and how it's 

3 defined. 

4 Q Okay. And the pilot uses that 

5 coupon to prepare the NOPIC form, the 

6 Martinaire NOPIC form. Is that correct? 

7 A Correct. The pilot completes the 

8 initial form. 

9 Q So would it be fair to say that 

10 the information on the DHL or UPS coupon may 

11 be in a different format, but it contains 

12 the same information that is in the 

13 Martinaire NOPIC form? 

14 A As it refers to what is in the 

15 package, yes. The additional information 

16 put on the NOPIC is day, date, pilot, 

17 aircraft, where it is on the airplane, 

18 because that can't be on the coupon, because 

19 the shipper has no idea, of course, where 

20 it's going to be put on the airplane. So 

21 the remainder of that is filled out by the 

22 pilot. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
130 

1 And so he recopies the coupon 

2 info, which is actually redundant, because 

3 he has the coupon with the information, and 

4 then he -- you know, the date, everything, 

5 and where it is, and then calls that in to 

6 dispatch. 

7 Q Okay. The stuff that is in the 

8 Martinaire 90-day file that's maintained at 

9 Martinaire's offices in Addison, those are 

10 the dispatch copies of the NOPICs? 

11 A Correct. 

12 Q And those represent the 

13 information that has been called in to 

14 dispatch by the pilot. 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q So if there are some blanks or 

17 some errors in the dispatch form, as you sit 

18 here today, can you state that is the 

19 pilot's error in preparing the form or 

20 whether there was a transcription error? Do 

21 you know why there are gaps? 

22 A I would have to say that the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
131 

1 pilot had all the correct info, and dispatch 

2 either transcribed it wrong or left it out 

3 due to rushing. 

4 Q So let's go to the base 

5 inspection of January 8, 2011. Now, with 

6 respect to the NOPIC errors that had been 

7 alleged in the complaint, insofar as those 

8 errors were found in the 90-day file during 

9 a base inspection at Martinaire, there's no 

10 dispute, those 12 forms did have errors. 

11 Correct? 

12 A Yes. The dispatch copy did have 

13 errors. 

14 Q Okay. But nobody had saved the 

15 pilot's copy of the NOPIC form, so we don't 

16 know as we sit here today whether the 

17 pilot's forms were correct or incorrect. 

18 A Correct. But I would have to say 

19 that they were -- the pilot had the correct 

20 information, because he had the coupon. The 

21 coupon has the correct, proper shipping 

22 name, the correct packing group, and 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
132 

1 everything, so as I sit here today, the 

2 pilot had the correct information. 

3 Q Okay. So presumably the pilot 

4 knew what was on his or her airplane. 

5 A He had to have, if he has the 

6 coupon. Yes. 

7 Q So we have the July 2011 

8 inspection, and you were present when Mr. 

9 Buchanan and Mr. Klimas testified as to the 

10 Dallas inspection and the Addison 

11 inspection. 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And I take it these inspections, 

14 until they got to the NOPICs and the 

15 dispatch 90-day file, everything was clear 

16 sailing. Is that 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q And then they found some NOPIC 

19 irregularities in the 90-day file. Is that 

20 correct? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Okay. What happened? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 Ww.N.nealrgross.com 
133 

1 A We proceeded to sit in our 

2 conference room, and this was, you know, 

3 during their debrief. We talked through how 

4 something like this could happen and how we 

5 could improve it. We even sat there with 

6 the training box. You know, how could a 

7 pilot make a mistake like this? 

B And actually identified -- it was 

9 very cooperative, and talking more 

10 Inspector Klimas talked a lot amongst 

11 ourselves there, too, and, you know, well, 

12 if we do this and this, and basically 

13 outlined a plan, and put it in motion, and 

14 that plan was put in our response. 

15 Q Okay. So what was the plan that 

16 you had outlined with Mr. Klimas? 

17 A Update and retrain. Update the 

18 training program, retrain the pilots, and 

19 more so the dispatchers, continue with our 

20 every year training, revise the form so it's 

21 more in compliance with the current 

22 regulatory requirements at the time, audit 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
134 

1 procedures, revise the GOM or general 

2 operations manual as necessary, and move 

3 forth to comply. 

4 Q And did Martinaire do all that? 

5 A Yes, sir. 

6 Q Okay. So right in front of you 

7 is Exhibit R-l. Was this Exhibit R-1 your 

8 response to the FAA letter of investigation? 

9 A Yes, sir. 

10 Q And the follow-up to the July 

11 2001 outbriefing? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q And this is over your signature. 

14 Is that correct? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Okay. And this letter attached 

17 several attachments. What is attachment A? 

18 A This was our -- the portion of 

19 hazardous materials from our general 

20 operations manual. 

21 Q And you attached that basically 

22 for what purpose? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
135 

1 A To identify what our current 

2 procedures are. 

3 Q Okay. And those procedures 

4 require that the NOPICs be completely filled 

5 out. Is that correct? 

6 A Correct. 

7 Q Exhibit B is what? Or attachment 

8 B. 

9 A (Perusing document.) It's 

10 portions of the dangerous goods manual that 

11 Martinaire gives its pilots. 

12 Q Okay. Now, speaking of training, 

13 the regulations require that Martinaire 

14 train its pilots and dispatchers once every 

15 24 months. Is that correct? 

16 A Correct. 

17 Q What is Martinaire's actual 

18 practice? 

19 A 

20 Q 

21 A 

22 training. 

(202) 234·4433 

We do it every 12 months --

Why? 

-- with their annual recurrent 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com 
136 

1 Q Why? 

2 A Reinforcement. 

3 Q So a conscious decision has been 

4 made to surpass the regulatory requirements. 

5 Is that correct? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q What is attachment C to Exhibit 

8 R-1? 

9 A Oh, it's all part of the -- I'm 

10 trying to find that other page. It's all 

11 part of our training program that we give to 

12 the pilots and dispatchers. 

13 Q Likewise Exhibit D? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q And Exhibit E is what, sir? 

16 A This is out of our approved 

17 training program also. 

18 Q And then you attached an Exhibit 

19 F which was -- what? -- the old HAZMAT 

20 training program. 

21 A Correct. This is what they use 

22 in the ground schools. It's a PowerPoint 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
137 

1 program. 

2 Q And Exhibit H was, correct me if 

3 I'm wrong, but the prior NOPIC form. Is 

4 that correct? 

5 A Correct. 

6 Q And attachment I is what? 

7 A The form that was designed after 

B our outbriefing on July of 2011 inspection. 

9 Q What was the purpose of changing 

10 the NOPIC form? 

11 A To make areas for the required 

12 information, to make it more obvious and to 

13 highlight the areas that are required. 

14 Q Okay. So I notice that in 

15 attachment H to Exhibit R-1, there are some 

16 areas with boundaries that are cross17 hatched. What does that signify? 

18 A The cross-hatch areas, that 

19 information contained in that hatched box is 

20 exactly what is on the coupon that the pilot 

21 has in his possession from the box. 

22 Q Then I notice that you have 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
13 8 

1 referred to a email from the chief pilot to 

2 the pilots and flight followers as 

3 Exhibit or I'm sorry-- as attachment I 

4 to your letter. 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q What was the purpose of that 

7 email? 

8 A That was the notice sent out to 

9 the pilots and flight followers immediately 

10 or right after our outbriefing to --

11 Q Okay. And 

12 A -- enhance the seriousness of 

13 what was found. 

14 Q Okay. Now, we talked about 

15 flight followers and dispatchers. Do you 

16 use those terms interchangeably? 

17 A Yes. By regulatory requirement, 

18 135 only requires flight followers. 

19 Dispatcher, the term ''dispatcher,'' the 

20 licensed dispatcher, the name "dispatcher" 

21 is actually a 121 requirement. Martina ire 

22 has always hired the most experienced flight 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
139 

1 followers that we can, and we call the 

2 department "dispatch," but in our operation, 

3 they're synonymous. 

4 Q So the email from your chief 

5 pilot -- and that was Michael Bates. Is 

6 that correct? 

7 A Correct. 

8 Q That was basically to advise, 

9 Hey, we've had a recent audit. We found 

10 some discrepancies. We need to eliminate 

11 these discrepancies. We've come up with a 

12 cleaner, more user-friendly NOPIC form, and 

13 we're going to retrain everybody. 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q And did Martinaire retrain 

16 everybody? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Okay. Did they revise the HAZMAT 

19 training syllabus? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q Okay. Is that what is attached 

22 as attachments J and K? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
140 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q And one was training syllabus for 

3 pilots; the other was for flight followers. 

4 A Correct. 

5 Q Okay. And then did Martinaire 

6 retrain everybody? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q And I'd like you to turn to 

9 attachment L. What is that? 

10 A These were the training records 

11 of the dispatchers at the time and flight 

12 coordinators that were all trained in it, 

13 anyone who handled it, nonpilots who handled 

14 the paperwork. 

15 Q Okay. And how about, how did 

16 they retrain the pilots? 

17 A Both as they came up through 

18 their recurrent training, as well as 

19 packages that were sent out to them. 

20 Q Okay. And then there is a 

21 follow-up email from Mr. Bates, attachment 

22 M. What is that? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
141 

1 A That was a more comprehensive 

2 message, based on the first one that was 

3 sent out. This one better explained the new 

4 forms and what to do, and had examples 

5 attached to it. He sent it out as a package 

6 to them, and this is what they trained with, 

7 that they had to -- that they reviewed it, 

8 and had to acknowledge that they had it. 

9 Q Okay. Now, with respect to.all 

10 these corrective actions that Martinaire 

11 agreed to take or promised to take, did they 

12 take them all? 

13 A Yes, sir. 

14 Q Was the FAA satisfied? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Did the FAA say, Martinaire, 

17 you're not doing enough; you can do more? 

18 A No. 

19 Q Did you maintain a dialogue with 

20 the FAA during this process? 

21 A To this day, we have a good 

22 dialogue with Inspector Klimas and Inspector 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
142 

1 Buchanan. 

2 Q Okay. So it's not just the --

3 they're not just the policemen that you're 

4 trying to avoid; you have an ongoing working 

5 relationship with them? 

6 A I feel very comfortable I 

7 could -- if I had a question today during 

8 this court proceeding, I could pick up the 

9 phone and ask Mr. Klimas. 

10 Q Has the FAA at any time, prior to 

11 December 13, advised Martinaire, You're not 

12 doing enough with respect to HAZMAT 

13 compliance? 

14 A No, sir. 

15 Q Let's talk about Martinaire's 

16 prior FAA cases. There was a reference to a 

17 prior NOPIC case from FAA's Northwest 

18 Mountain Region. 

19 A Okay. 

20 Q That was a case in which a pilot 

21 didn't have the form on his person. Is that 

22 correct? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
143 

1 A Yes. 

2 Q Okay. Could you describe what 

3 happened in that case? 

4 A We found out as a result of the 

5 phone calls from the FAA and the 

6 investigation that evidently the pilot who 

7 was assigned the route, flew it all the 

8 time, it was his assigned route, landed 

9 destination, got inspected, and didn't have 

10 a NOPIC for his package or a HAZMAT package 

11 that was on board. 

12 He had the coupon, but he didn't 

13 have the NOPIC itself filled out. He had 

14 called in the information but didn't have 

15 his copy, because he had used the last one, 

16 and this is where you get into what I 

17 consider the human factor of stupidity. 

18 Rather than call and say, Hey, fax me one, a 

19 blank, or take the sample out of his manual 

20 and ask UPS, Hey, can you burn me a few 

21 copies, he figured he had, you know, the 

22 coupon. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234A433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
144 

1 I'm guessing that he figured he 

2 had the coupon which has all the safety3 related information. he knew where he put 

4 it on the airplane. As far as, you know, 

5 date, time, flight number and pilot, well, 

6 he has all that in that flight logbook 

7 anyway, so he figured he was okay to go. 

8 Q Okay. So the information was 

9 called in to dispatch. 

10 A I believe so. 

11 Q And the information was contained 

12 in the 90-day file, but the pilot didn't 

13 have the NOPIC on his person at the time of 

14 the flight. 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q Okay. And then there was also a 

17 Great Lakes Region case. What was that 

18 about? 

19 A Are you referring to Purple 

20 Power? 

21 Q The Purple Power case. What was 

22 that about? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .• N.W. 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
145 

1 A The pilot, I believe, was flying 

2 Cadillac for the day, and he also washed 

3 airplanes on the weekend, and decided to go 

4 to Walmart or one of those joints and picked 

5 up Purple Power, which is like a Simple 

6 Green degreaser, cleanser. And just -- you 

7 know, this came out in talking with him. He 

8 put it on the airplane in the front 

9 compartment where he sticks his bag, and 

10 flew down to Lansing. 

11 Q And this was solely his personal 

12 activity. 

13 A Yes. He figured and it came 

14 out after that. He figured it was his 

15 personal -- you know, personal carriage of 

16 the stuff, and it didn't even have to be 

17 declared. He didn't tell anyone. 

18 Q Did Martinaire tell him to go out 

19 and buy the Purple Power? 

20 A No. 

21 Q Did Martinaire tell him to put 

22 the Purple Power on the airplane? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
146 

1 A No. 

2 Q Did Martinaire know that the 

3 Purple Power had even been put on the 

4 airplane? 

5 A No. 

6 Q And both of those cases were 

7 settled. Is that correct? 

8 A Yes. That one was a little 

9 harder to settle, but -- especially during 

10 which they declassified Purple Power as a 

11 hazardous material in the middle of the back 

12 and forth with the FAA attorneys on the 

13 case. 

14 Q When Martinaire settled these 

15 cases, was it without admission of 

16 liability? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Let's go to December '13. What 

19 happened? 

20 A Inspector Klimas and another 

21 inspector -- I don't recall his name -- they 

22 were conducting their annual -- you know, 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com 
147 

1 well, their two-plus-year audit of 

2 Martinaire. They evidently went out to DFW 

3 again, you know, and started there by 

4 observing the outbound aircraft, then came 

5 over to our headquarters at Addison, and 

6 proceeded to do what they usually do at the 

7 facility, which is pilot training records, 

8 the -- what he referred to as stores, but we 

9 refer to it parts and shipping, making sure 

10 we were good there, and then the review of 

11 the 90-day file. 

12 Q Okay. And I take it everything 

13 except for the 90-day file went swimmingly. 

14 A Yes, sir. 

15 Q And what did they find in the 90-

16 day file? 

17 A Discrepancies ln the dispatch 

18 copy of the NO PIC. 

19 Q Okay. So what, if anything, did 

20 Martinaire do in response to these observed 

21 discrepancies? 

22 A Again, you know, during debrief, 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234·4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
148 

1 you know, Inspector Klimas and I were 

2 talking, and I was at -- basically came down 

3 to, how do you take the human factor out of 

4 it, because these were just human editorial 

5 errors. 

6 It goes back to there's no doubt 

7 ln my mind that the pilot had every piece of 

8 required information he was supposed to have 

9 when he flew the flights, but how do we get 

10 a good copy of it that matches, and 

11 especially with anything like a transposed 

12 number, 9119, you know, 2332, which any --

13 the way that we're inspected, any editorial 

14 mistake is a violation. 

15 If you write down 66 instead of 

16 666, because people don't want to write down 

17 triple-6 as a flight number, you know, for 

18 obvious Biblical reasons, et cetera, that's 

19 a violation. If you leave out the year and 

20 just put June 1, 6/1, you're in the 90-day 

21 file, that's a potential violation. How do 

22 you take out anything human with the form? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
149 

1 And what we came up with was to 

2 develop -- well, first it was to obtain a 

3 computer-based program to do this. Now, 

4 there isn't any that exists. We only needed 

5 one function. See, we're not an accepter. 

6 We don't -- you can't bring to us a 

7 hazardous shipment, you know, and say, Hey, 

8 I want to ship this box of -- or bag or 

9 container of anything. 

10 We get everything predone, and we 

11 only carry, you know, that. for UPS, DHL, et 

12 cetera. So in going through the few 

13 computer programs that are out there for 

14 hazardous material, that will just give us a 

15 NOPIC. There does not exist -- there are 

16 two computers that are astronomical in price 

17 that. a piece of it could do this, but it's 

18 not really functional. 

19 I mean, remember, our guys are 

20 out there in the morning or the evening. 

21 They have to depart. They get the boxes. 

22 They have the required NOPIC information. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nea lrgross. com 
150 

1 They have everything. They have to get it 

2 to the dispatcher. The dispatcher has to 

3 copy it by the letter. You could have a 

4 proper shipping name with a word that's 45 

5 letters long that no one in this room will 

6 ever pronounce, but if you don't have every 

7 letter correct, it's a violation. 

8 How do we get down to that? And 

9 so we contracted with a company to develop a 

10 computer-based application that will perform 

11 this function, basically an electronic NOPIC 

12 that the dispatcher can use, and we're beta 

13 testing now, and it's phenomenal, expensive 

14 but phenomenal. 

15 Q How much? 

16 A We've spent over 10,000 already. 

17 We know that upon completion of beta and 

18 final sign-off, it will run us another 10-

19 to $15,000. 

20 Q Okay. And aside from the 

21 software development costs, how many man 

22 hours has Martinaire spent in working with 

(202) 234·4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 VWJW. nea I rg ross. com 
151 

1 the vendor to develop this software program? 

2 A Personally, I probably have over 

3 a hundred man hours into it, and I know our 

4 dispatch office has probably spent more than 

5 that, especially ln the beta testing phase. 

6 Q Okay. Now, has Martinaire 

7 invited the FAA to participate in the 

8 viewing and testing of this software 

9 program? 

10 A When we got to a point where I 

11 would call it functional in the beta test 

12 you know, we went through -- after our third 

13 iteration of it, it's like, Okay, we're 

14 ready to try it, you know. I did invite 

15 Inspector Klimas and his group to come view 

16 it, because as we've shown before, we could 

17 think it's all right, but does the FAA think 

18 it's all correct, and is it enough to pass 

19 an inspection. 

20 You know, when we get audited 

21 next time or today or tomorrow or 90 days 

22 from now, are the NOPICs that this generates 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
152 

1 for dispatch fully in compliance with the 

2 regulations? And I could sit here and say, 

3 yes, because we had said, You have to have 

4 this; you have to have that; you have to 

5 have that. But I'm more concerned of taking 

6 out the human factor in it, that you can't 

7 transpose numbers. 

8 I mean, the date is the date, you 

9 know. We have it programmed so that when 

10 you put in the UN ID number, it 

11 automatically fills in the proper shipping 

12 name. And this is based on the live FAA 

13 database on this. That's why it's so 

14 expensive, too. It's not something that we 

15 update. This company hosts it, and they 

16 have the up-to-date databases on all 

17 chemical names, shipment numbers, classes, 

18 hazard class, special instructions, 

19 everything. 

20 So if it's not properly filled 

21 out, you can't close the file. You can't 

22 forget the date. You can't forget, where is 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 Ww.N.nealrgross.com 
153 

1 it on the airplane. You can't forget a 

2 proper shipping name or UN ID number. You 

3 can't forget a packing group or class. It 

4 automatically comes up, and, say, a compound 

5 could be a class II or III. You have to 

6 select one of them. 

7 I mean, it's a cool program. 

8 Nothing exists like it, but, you know, I can 

9 say it's the greatest thing in the world, 

10 but, again, if it's not going to pass muster 

11 during an inspection, it's worthless. 

12 Q So did the FAA take you up on 

13 your offer to come and --

14 A No, they did not. 

15 Q -- take a look? 

16 A They were -- I was told that they 

17 could not come out and see it until after 

18 this trial was done. 

19 Q Did they give a reason for that? 

20 A They couldn't talk about it, and 

21 that surprised me, because, you know, I 

22 always thought it's supposed -- it's about 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W 

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
154 

1 safety, compliance, cooperation. And the 

2 guy pulled over to the side of the road one 

3 day. You know, I called Paul one day to ask 

4 him a question on 

5 Q Mr. Klimas. 

6 A Inspector Klimas. He pulled over 

7 to the side of the road to call me back, to 

8 answer the-- I mean, that's the cooperation 

9 we have. Yet they were -- my -- it's my 

10 opinion that they were restricted from 

11 coming and seeing the program until after 

12 I was told, after this is all over. So I 

13 don't mean the if it meant just the trial 

14 or if it meant getting to the final outcome. 

15 Q What is Martinaire's philosophy 

16 regarding regulatory compliance? 

17 A It's much easier to comply. 

18 MR. DWORKIN: I have no further 

19 questions. Thank you. 

20 MR. ARCHIER: I have no 

21 questions, Your Honor. 

22 MR. DWORKIN: No redirect. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www. nealrgross.com 
155 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect on 

2 the failure to cross-examine? Okay. Sir, 

3 you can step down. It's up to Mr. 

4 Dworkin 

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 

6 (Whereupon, the witness was 

7 excused.) 

8 MR. DWORKIN: And according to my 

9 notes, Exhibit R-1 is already in. And, Your 

10 Honor, I need about five minutes to just 

11 talk to my witness. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. Let's take 

13 a break till 1:30. 

14 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. Can I 

15 confirm R-1 is in? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: That's what I'm 

17 going to do during the break. I'm going to 

18 check my notes. 

19 (Whereupon, a short recess was 

20 taken.) 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Be seated. 

22 Respondent's 1 for 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
156 

1 identification, we believe, was introduced 

2 into evidence, but just to play safe, 

3 Respondent's 1 for identification is 

4 received into evidence as Respondent's 1. 

5 Agency 100.01 was received into evidence. 

6 And then the trial brief of Respondent is 

7 marked as Court Exhibit. 

8 Yes, sir, Mr. Archier. 

9 MR. ARCHIER: We'd like 

10 permission to release Mr. Buchanan. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Sure. 

12 MR. ARCHIER: We're not going to 

13 call him as a rebuttal witness. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Sure. 

15 MR. ARCHIER: I'll just tell him. 

16 (Pause.) 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Let's go off the 

18 record while he's out. 

19 (Off the record.) 

20 JUDGE GOODWIN: Back on the 

21 record. 

22 I know you had discussions when 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WWN.nealrgross.com 
157 

1 we were off the record about the briefing 

2 schedule. I advised counsel when we were 

3 off the record, once they agree on a 

4 schedule, just send me email confirmation, 

5 as much for diary purposes as anything. 

6 If either one of you run into a 

7 problem with that schedule and you want to 

8 bump it, talk, shoot me an email and tell me 

9 what the new dates are. 

10 MR. DWORKIN: Very well. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Don't bother 

12 filing a motion. 

13 MR. ARCHIER: If we can just put 

14 something on the record now, would you mind, 

15 Your Honor, a tentative agreement? 

16 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. 

17 MR. ARCHIER: My understanding, 

18 Mr. Dworkin, is that the Agency will submit 

19 its brief by August 15, 2014. 

20 MR. DWORKIN: Assuming that the 

21 transcript comes out --

22 MR. ARCHIER: Assuming that the 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
158 

1 transcript comes out -- what was that date? 

2 MR. DWORKIN: By July 15. 

3 JUDGE GOODWIN: It's normally 

4 Barbara, do you know? What's your 

5 turnaround? 

6 THE REPORTER: I don't know for 

7 this. Maybe ten working days. 

8 JUDGE GOODWIN: I think it's 

9 about two weeks. Call Pat. Pat knows what 

10 it is. 

11 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. Pat 

12 Matthews? 

13 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes. And she'll 

14 be able to -- or better yet, send her an 

15 email. 

16 MR. ARCHIER: Right. And, Your 

17 Honor, just to make it clear, we'll just say 

18 the Agency's brief will be due 30 days from 

19 the receipt that we receive the transcript. 

20 That will make it easier. 

21 MR. DWORKIN: Okay. 

22 MR. ARCHIER: And then 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
159 

1 JUDGE GOODWIN: And I'll try to 

2 get these exhibits in, since they're 

3 MR. ARCHIER: Right. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: You know, pretty 

5 quickly. I haven't had a chance to get our 

6 other ones, because I've been working 

7 through two three-ring binders from this 

8 case in April. 

9 MR. DWORKIN: Well, in that case, 

10 the transcript just came out last week. 

11 JUDGE GOODWIN: Yes, yes. 

12 MR. DWORKIN: So it was three 

13 weeks. 

14 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Well, I 

15 think the contract with the Department is 

16 like two or three weeks or something like 

17 that. We have gotten them faster, but 

18 that's normal course of business. 

19 All right. Well, that works for 

20 me. Anything else, gentlemen? 

21 MR. ARCHIER: Ready for closing. 

22 JUDGE GOODWIN: You want to do an 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
160 

1 argument? 

2 MR. ARCHIER: I'd like to do a 

3 closing argument. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. 

5 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor --

6 JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 

7 MR. ARCHIER: That doesn't 

8 replace the fact that we still have to do a 

9 brief. Right? 

10 JUDGE GOODWIN: Right. 

11 MR. ARCHIER: Okay. All right. 

12 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, he's 

13 under an old employment agreement. He gets 

14 paid by the word. 

15 (General laughter.) 

16 MR. ARCHIER: I got to get back 

17 at Mr. Dworkin somehow, because he sends me 

18 a ream of paper every other day. 

19 JUDGE GOODWIN: He just wants, 

20 you know 

21 CLOSING ARGUMENT ON BEHALF OF THE 

22 COMPLAINANT 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE .. N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wwvv.nealrgross.com 
161 

1 MR. ARCHIER: Your Honor, thank 

2 you for hearing our case today. The FAA 

3 would like to indicate the following items 

4 that we would like for the Court to give 

5 deference to the FAA's order 2150.3B, 

6 Appendix C, the sanction guidance, hazardous 

7 material enforcement provisions. 

8 In addition, Your Honor, the 

9 argument -- there's been an argument put 

10 forth that the sanction guidance or the 

11 sanction in this amount of $206,550 is 

12 outside the range, and we submit to you, you 

13 know, that the civil penalty amount of 

14 $206,550 is within the 2150.3B range. 

15 The low amount or the floor 

16 amount for the civil penalty within the 

17 group 2 range for the violations for the 

18 hazardous material regulations that are in 

19 issue, the low point is in the-- is $5,000. 

20 The high point range per violation is 

21 16,200. As we had indicated during the 

22 course of our argument, there were 17 

(202) 234·4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
162 

1 separate shipments. 

2 And we'd like for the Court to 

3 take deference to the fact that that 

4 particular civil penalty range was not set 

5 at the high end, but was within the 

6 guidelines of the 2150.3B. And, of course, 

7 during the course, the FAA did file the 

s 2150.3B, which you took judicial notice of, 

9 which you have a copy of, which is a part of 

10 the record, Your Honor. 

11 And so we would like to make sure 

12 that that becomes a part of the official 

13 record, and we'd like for you to give 

14 deference to the Complainant's argument with 

15 regard to the civil penalty. 

16 Thank you, Your Honor. 

17 JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Dworkin, do 

18 you want to be heard or 

19 MR. DWORKIN: No. I'll save it 

20 for the brief, Your Honor. 

21 JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. I thought 

22 you were going to stand up and say he's 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
163 

1 wrong again. 

2 Gentlemen, thank you very much. 

3 I will certainly get through this as 

4 expeditiously as possible. If anything 

5 comes up -- both of you gentlemen have done 

6 a very professional job, as I would have 

7 expected, and thank you again. 

8 We'll go off the record. 

9 (Whereupon, at 1:35 p.m., the 

10 hearing in the above-entitled matter was 

11 concluded.) 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

NEAL R. GROSS 

(202) 234-4433 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
Page 164 

A activity 28:5 32:3 38:15 39:1,5 132:4 144:4 145:8 applications 79:6 

$100 34:8 145:12 75:15 82:12 145:22 146:4 appreciate 75:6 

$15,000 150:19 actual123:11 agents 25:21 28:1 153:1 approach 36:19,21 

$197,169 122:20 135:17 30:22 36:5 airplanes 50: 19 53:3 

$20,000 109:20 Addison 28:4 49:20 ago22:16 51:5 52:1,10 appropriate 67:5 

$200,000 58:20 78:8,17,20,22 agree21:17157:3 110:16121:18 approved 136:16 

$206,550 12:17 94:13 107:18 agreed 141:11 145:3 approximately 

16:6,22 21 :6 116:3 130:9 agreement 157:15 Airport 28:6 81:9 89:18 91:16 

112:2 161:11,14 132:10147:5 160:13 Alan3:7115:12,19 121:4,6 125:7,20 

$5,000 161:19 addition 17:9 22:11 ahead 37:17 41:22 ALJ 3:11 11:12 April159:8 

$50,000 58:11,15 54:18 93:9 100:11 69:21 71:21 160:6 12:3 Archier 2:8 4:6,7 

A-D-D-1-S 116:3 161:8 air 13:19,20 15:19 ALJ-13:13 11:8,20 7:21 9:6,8,21 10:4 

A-L-A-N 115:20 additional54:14 16:11,15 19:2,4,5 allegations 17:20 10:9,10, 14,15,18 

A-Ft-C:-11-l-IC-Ft 106:4 112:20 34:4,5,7 44:19,20 37:21 10:19 12:12,13 

4:8 129:15 45:22 75:20 88:21 alleged 131:7 17:2 21:8,11,14 

a,m 1:16 114:19 additionally 41:2 99:18102:1,4,5 allow 69:12,14 23:20,22 24:9,13 

Ab117:19 address 15:18 120:8,10126:16 alludes 99:2 25:9 29:22 30:3 

ability 78:11 104:9 107:4 116:1 126:18 ambiguous 45:4 36:18 37:2,10 

able7:3 15:18 60:5 addressed 105:5 aircraft 14:1,21 AMEIDC:A 1:1 38:5,7 40:14 

86:10 87:4 88:13 addresses 5: 12 15:4,7 16:3 18:22 American 21 :4 41:20 42:1,2 44:6 

92:17 99:4 158:14 107:2 19:9,10,15 28:16 45:12,15 46:2 45:2 52:14 55:11 

aboard 97:3 addressing 62:4,5 29:5,10 33:1,6,10 101:3,6,7 102:6 56:3 64:9,10,20 

above-entitled 1:15 adjudicated 17:14 34:1042:11,19 111:15,17,20 64:22 65:2 69:3,4 

114:20163:10 Administration 1:4 43:6,8,9,17 50:15 112:1 69:8,20,22 70:1,7 

absolutely 20:8 2:9 4:7 9:9 12:14 51:1,14,22 55:1 amount 12:16 71:16,20 72:1,16 

Academy 117:14 13:18 14:3,9,13 77:18 80:4 92:9 57:22 109:22 72:17,22 74:12 

117:17118:8 16:5,21 26:5,8,10 92:16,18,20 98:2 161:11,13,15,16 75:2,4 82:10,16 

Academy's 117:22 26:12 39:16,20 98:12101:16 annotating 109:18 83:19,21 84:19,22 

acceptance 29:7 40:15 75:13 76:11 121:21 122:1 annnal95: 13 93:18 112:8,14,21 

45:19 46:20 99:8 124:10,14,19,20 135:21 146:22 112:22 113:2,5,15 

accepted 28:15 administrative 125:1,13,19 annually 34:8 113:19,21114:16 

accepter 149:5 1:21 9:19 33:19 127:22 129:17 answer45:6118:21 154:20 156:8,9,12 

accepts 97: 13 admission 20: 15 147:4 154:8 156:15157:13,17 

access 43:9 40:16110:6 airline 13:16 34:16 anxiously 8:4 157:22158:11,16 

accident 92:6 146:15 118:5,15 120:12 anybody 63: I 0 158:22 159:3,21 

accurate 55:2 admit 20:3 121:2 72:20 93:12 160:2,5,7,11,16 

acknowledge 141:8 admonish 112:11 airlines 21:2,4 105:21 110:21 161: I 

acquired 52:2 89:3 advise 139:8 45:12,15 77:19 112:12 area43:20 77:18 

acronyms 79:16 advised 142:11 101:4,6,7111:15 anyone's 56: I 78:15 91:20 93:7 

action 1:6 35:20,22 157:2 111:16,18,20 anyway 144:7 areas 137:11,13,16 

43:19 54:4,6,7 affect43:14 118:3,11,14,22 APPICAAANC:ICS 137:18 

90:9,12 104:13,15 afternoon 78:18 119:19 2:4 arena26:21 76:8 

104:19,22 Agency41:13 69:2 airplane 20:1 48:3 appears 53:15 argue 17:2 

actions 54:10 59:6 156:5157:18 55:6 98:6,10 68:10 argument 52:19 

105:8,11,20 Agency's 158:18 101:11111:1 Appendix 161:6 160:1,3,21 161:9 

141:10 agent9:1126:18 125:6,12 127:12 application 76:3 161:9,22 162:14 

active 77:3 27:21,22 31:15 127:20 129:17,20 150: I 0 Army77:4,5 

Neal R Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 165 

ASCII 7:1,3 4:3,7,10 9:812:14 150:1 1 98:2101:11 114:9 

aside 100:15 128:3 12:16 13:18 14:2 basing 90:3 143:11 bulk 124:22 

150:20 14:8,12 16:4,20 basis25:20 27:17 body 18:17,18 bump 157:8 

asking 21:7 22:7 26:5,8 27:3 Bates 139:5 140:21 110:9 burn 143:20 

asserted 22:9 33:19 39:15,19 batteries 79:8 Boehringer 86:3,5 burned 92:21 

assessed 20:22 21:3 40:15 75:12 76:17 beating 5:1 86:7,12 business 5:6 39:15 

assessing 14:6 92:11 116:10 Beech 119:9125:18 borrowed 50:20 40:17 116:1 

assigned 143:7,8 117:13,17,22 Beeches 51: I 7 bother 157:11 117:22 118:10,13 

assist 57:1 98:7 118:8 120:17 began 14:6,11 bottom 67:17 87:3 118:22 119:2,5,12 

127:21 122:6 126:17 beha1f2:6,16 12:10 bought 110:20 I 19:14 121:13 

assisted 89:14 Aviation's 11:22 17:6 21:12 160:21 Boulevard 2:12 126:17 159:18 

assisting 56: 11 avoid 142:4 believe27:13 33:5 boundaries 137:16 busy7:13 

associated 53:16 aware 5:4 6:3 34:1135:15,18 box 87:3 125:5,6 buy 145:19 

Associates 2: 19 92:10 106:6 112:4 49:15 63:18 78:4 133:6 137:19,21 

assuming 87:19 79:17 81:21 84:16 149:8 c 

157:20,22 B 100:2,8 109:16 boxes 149:21 Cl:204:115:8 

assumption 87:21 B 15:2,2 32:18 33:2 110:8 115:5 branch2:11 25:18 32:18 33:14 79:18 

88:1 96:22 135:7,8 120:15 144:10 break4:13,14,16 136:7161:6 

assure 16:16 8-R-Y-A-N 25:5 145:1 156:1 10:18 73:6 114:8 C-U-R-T -1-S-S 

astronomical B-U-C-H-A-N-A-N bench 8:3 36:22 155:13,17 116:3 

149:16 25:6 benefit 18:3,5, II brief7:10 10:21 C.F.R22:8 

attached 83:11 back6:7 27:16 best 50:9 51:19 11:22 12:6 17:10 Cadillac 145:2 

134:16,21 136:18 28:10 29:5 48:22 beta 150:12,17 80:2 122:18 156:6 cafeteria 114:9 

139:21 141:5 79:22 108:13 151:5,11 157:19 158:18 California 2:20,21 

attachment 134:17 114:10 115:3 better 108:10 141:3 160:9 162:20 call6:7,1111:7 

135:7 136:7 137:6 120:9 146:11 158:14 briefing7:16157:1 18:16 24:3 47:20 

137:15 138:3 148:6 154:7 BEX 118:19 bring23:7,17 59:21 109:4 113:7 

140:9,21 156:20 160:16 REX/Flight 119:16 128:11 149:6 113:11,22139:1 

attachments backed 8:1 beyond 68:21,22 broken 128:6 143:18 151:11 

134:17 139:22 bad 6:9 69:7,14 brought 127:8,9,11 154:7 156:13 

attention 67:11 bag 145:9 149:8 Biblica1148:18 Bryan 3:5 24:19 158:9 

attorneys 146:12 ball's 115:5 bid 124:19 25:4 called 24:20 41:10 

attribute 124:12 ballpark22:14 big 15:10,12,13 Buchanan 3:5 70:18 73:20 96:21 

audit49:10 133:22 122:21 bigger 52:10 23:10 24:19 25:5 97:6 115:13 

139:9 147:1 Barbara 158:4 binder 48: 15 25:6,10 27:2 28:7 130:13 143:14 

audited !51 :20 base 131:4,9 binders 9:1 159:7 33:18 34:16 35:4 144:9 154:3 

August 157:19 based 58:3 60:1 birth 5:12 35:19 37:1138:8 calls52:15 55:13 

authored 96:4 70:17117:14 bit25:19 27:11 38:22 39:9,18,22 79:17 130:5 143:5 

authorized 18:10 120:12 125:8 30:1131:22 35:6 40:9,17,21 42:3 capacity 26:16 

automatically 141:2 152:12 42:4 80:5 88:11 44:11 53:7 65:3 116:11 

152:11153:4 basic 13:10 47:12 120:9 67:1,10 70:2 72:2 captain 67:19 97:2 

available 7:15 56:9 basically 1 7: 19 blank96:14 143:19 82:13113:7114:1 Caravan 125:2,4 

56:18 98:17,20 46:1147:13,17 blanks 130:16 132:9 142:1 Caravans51:16 

average 57:21 58:3 54:22 63:6 67:7 blocks 60:9,11 156:10 125:15 

58:9,14 125:8 97:8,19,20 101 :9 board 15:7 16:3 Buchanan's 37:20 care7:6 16:14 

Averaged 123:5 133:12 134:21 55:5 56:13 80:1 103:7 cargo 13:16 19:4 

aviation 1:4,7 2:9 139:8 148:2 92:8,16 97:3,9 building 1:11 4:18 27:9 45:22 46:7 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 166 

101:20 121:9 causing 43:21 139:12 completed 42:15 77: I 0,21 90:15,17 

123:15 125:7,9,21 cell5:13 cleanser 145:6 78:16 87:4,17,20 107:9 

carriage 44:17,19 certain 54:10 96:6 clear 132:15 158:17 89:14 conducting 46:19 

145:15 certainly I 0:6 23:6 clocks 73:8 completely 135:4 54:14 146:22 

carrier 13:19,20 55:19 56:1 93:16 close4:15 27:1 completes 66: I ,6 conducts 45:19 

16:15 26:1127:9 I 06:22 107:3 73:11 152:21 72:4 129:7 47:1 

34:4,6,7 50:13 163:3 closed 35:13,16 completion 150:17 conference 133:2 

51:2,9, I 0 52:5 certainty 96:8 closely 33:18 compliance 63:3 confidential 5:6 

63:3 95:2199:18 certificate 120:22 closing 159:21 84:2 133:21 confidentiality 

99:22 121:9 certifications 118:7 160:3,21 142:13 152:1 5:21 

124: 16 Cessna 51:16 125:2 colleague 8:2 78:5 154:1,16 confines 33:9 

carriers 16:12 19:3 125:14 colors 95:3 complicated 118:21 confirm 155:15 

19:4,526:10 cetera 128:6 148:18 come62:14 63:7 comply 134:3 confirmation 157:4 

44:20 45:22 46:1 149:12 92:11108:16 154:17 conflicting 80:14 

46:7 75:20 102:1 chance 159:5 139:11 151:15 compound 45:3 80:17 84:9 

102:5,5 126:16,18 change 101:18,19 153:13,17 153:4 confronted 112:2 

carry 124:18 changing 137:9 comes 153:4 157:21 comprehensive conscious 136:3 

149:11 chargc28:18 158:1 163:5 27:19 30:5 49:10 consider 121:12 

carrying 20:2,8 charter 120:12 comfortable 142:6 77:10 78:1 94:6 143:17 

123:15 126:10 charters 120:1 coming26:8 77:1 104:16,20 141:1 consideration 54: I 

case 1:4 4:2 16:21 check 107:18 101:11154:11 compressed 85:14 67:4 84:4 106:17 

17:1119:1220:12 155:18 command 19:8,9 computer 40:1,2,5 considered 34:4 

22:19 23:3 35:14 chemicall52: 17 32:16 42:15 43:15 40:1141:445:16 consistent 5:9 23: 1 

35:16 36:15 45:17 Chicago 7:2 91:20 84:14 92:1 126:9 62:8,13 63:14,16 consists 125: 1 

46:9,16,17,18 chief 5:22 116:13 comment75:1 63:18 149:13 contact29:13 65:10 

58:4 60:4 65:15 138:1 139:4 common47:5 computer-based 65:19 

67:8 91:18 97:12 circumstances commonly 79:16 149:3 150:10 contacted 32:3 

109:10,10110:11 22:18,20 58:4 communicate computers 149:16 contain 79:7 

110:12,15111:11 66:20 34:22 concentrate 75:8 contained 60:6 

113:10 142:17,20 civill:6 12:15 14:6 companies 75:22 concentrated 89:12 61:15 137:19 

143:3 144:17,21 16:5,9,11,21 company 27:11 concept 67:6 144:11 

146:13 159:8,9 20:11,17,21 21:5 51:8 104:6 111:21 concerned 152:5 container 149:9 

161:2 21:17,18 22:12,15 122:7 150:9 concerning 55:2 containing 85:9 

case's 58:3 35:13,16 51:8 152:15 concerns 104:10 contains 129: II 

cases 22:17 23:4 52:9 57:22 58:9 comparison 21:6 107:2 contends 14:9 

32:13 44:16 58:10 58:19 66:19 67:5 compartment concluded 22:6 CONTENTS 3: 1 

88:21 109:9 67:7 112:2 161:13 145:9 163:11 context 8:12 

111:15,20142:16 161:16 162:4,15 Complainant I :5 conclusion 72:20 continue 133:19 

146:6,15 civilian 77:4 2:612:1121:13 112:13 continued 14:14 

catastrophic 14:20 class 13:12 32:9 160:22 conclusions 55:13 contract 6:17 27:12 

32:22 55:3 80:18 85:15 Complainant's condition 83:15,16 27:17 159:15 

categories 32:14,17 85:15 128:21 17:12,19 22:4,10 84:5,8 contracted 124:17 

32:18 152:18 153:3,5 162:14 conduct 26: I 63:2 150:9 

category 14:19,19 classes 152: 17 complaint 22:10 conducted 14:13 contrary 6:1 

15:2,2,8 32:20,20 classified 34:1,2 131:7 27:22 28:2,3 30:6 control 113: 11 

32:21 33:2,14,14 92:7 complete 61:10 31:16 36:4 38:19 conversation 60:2 

cause15:5 cleaner 110:20 88:8 92:17 101:20 39:3,10,15 49:11 coo 116:16 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 167 

cool153:7 121:10 122:7,8 55:22 65:7 73:6,9 130:4 144:5 152:8 department 1 :2 

cooperation 154:1 126:2 127:6 129:6 80:9 85:6 91:10 152:8,22 158:1 43:8 77:4 102:2 

154:8 129:7 130:11 '15 115:6 142:8 156:7 dated 68:5 85:5 118:4 139:2 

cooperative 106:19 131:1,11,17,18,19 161:4 162:2 dates 5:11 157:9 159:15 

133:9 131:21,22 132:2 courthouse 73:1 day 35:12 49:13 departs 19:10 

coordinators 132:20 134:14 courtroom 73:1 59:14 81:20 89:8 depending 4:15 

140:12 135:5,6,15,16 crash 15:19 56:16 89:10 114:22 deposition 58:6,18 

copies 7:9 20:5 136:5,21137:2,4 65:16 129:16 141:21 depositions 18:14 

48:8 59:13,16,18 137:5 139:6,7 create 28:20 145:2 147:16 Depot 110:19 

61:8,15 70:15 140:4 142:22 created 30:13,22 154:3,3 160:18 describe27:10 28:8 

71:1,7 130:10 144:15 146:7 40:1 56:14 59:22 day-to-day 25:20 33:3 77:20 80:9 

143:21 150:7 151:18 82:2 days48:17108:1 83:14,22 85:5 

copilot 35:3 corrective 35:20,21 creating 28:9 151:21158:7,18 106:11 125:3 

copy6:14,16 7:3 54:4,5,7,10 59:5 crew 15:6 16:18 deal15:10,12,13 127:3 143:2 

37:5,5 71:2 82:12 90:8,12 104:12,15 19:9 35:2 46:4 43:3 119:13 description 13: 11 

103:6,7,9' 16 104:19,22105:8 79:3 93:5,10 dealing 20:12 32:11 80:2 

131:12,15 143:15 105:10,20 141:10 96:10101:13,15 dealt 126:12,15 designed 137:7 

147:18148:10 correctly 15: 12 102:3 death 15:5 destination 14 3:9 

150:3 162:9 40:11 92:1 cross 3:3 55:16 debrief 133:3 detail27: 11 88:12 

corporate 28:3 costs 150:21 66:17 137:16 147:22 details 28:14 

corporations 118:3 counsel2:10 4:4 cross-examination December 36:6 determination 

correct13:10 33:11 5:4 6:15 10:1 44:9 68:21 93:22 59:10 60:4 61:12 21:21 88:15 

33:16,20,21 34:14 12:9 25:7 52:19 cross-examine 90:16105:13,18 determine 60:5,12 

35:8,22 44:3,4 157:2 155:2 105:22 107:7 63:3 87:4 88:13 

45:1 46:6,8,13 country 120:2 cross-hatch 137:18 142:11146:18 determined 21 :22 

47:11,2248:9,10 couple4:12 51:17 cubic 125:9 decided 145:3 determining 6 7:4 

48:13,14,17,18 73:9 current 133:21 decision 8:12 16:20 develop 149:2 

49:11,12,14,15,21 coupon 19:17 47:2 135:1 17:12,19 22:5 150:9 151:1 

49:22 50:4,5,10 47:7,9,16,17 48:2 currently 26:11 136:3 developed 62: 14 

50:16 51:10,11,14 97:15,17,19 27:12 121:17 decisions 8:4 developing 62:8 

51:15,18 52:6,7 128:15,17,18 Curtiss 116:2 declared 145:17 development 

52:12 53:19 54:12 129:5,10,18130:1 declassilied 146: 10 150:21 

55:6,7,9 57:13,15 130:3 131:20,21 D decline 62: 17,20 DFW 49:14 78:3,12 

57:18,19 58:21 132:6 137:20 D4:1 136:13 deference 161 :5 94:9,12 147:2 

59:1,6,7 61:1,5,11 143:12,22 144:2 D-W-Cl-Ft-IC-1-~ 162:3,14 DFW-oriented 

63:5 64:4 66:2,3 course 39:14 4:11 deficiencies 90:6 78:12 

66:14,15 67:19,20 106:17129:19 D&D 10:7 91:3 108:4,6 DHL 13:18 19:18 

68:5 70:16,20 159:18161:22 daily 116:19 deficient 32:7 27:14 29:4 47:2,2 

71:3,4,12,13 72:8 162:6,7 Dallas 1:12 I 00:16 defined 129:3 47:16 48:2 77:19 

77:12 82:3,7 83:9 court 4:19 6:2,16 132:10 definitive 80:16 88:20 97:14,19 

85:18 89:20 93:15 11:10 20:20 21:16 Dallas-Fort 28:5 degreaser 145:6 123:16 125:9 

94:21 95:8,9 21:19,2125:13 danger 35:1 126:11 delivered 19:8 127:9 128:1,11 

97:15 98:6,14 27:18 28:8,10 dangerous 135:10 delivery 13: I 7 129:10149:11 

100:17 102:15 29:1 30:10,19 Dauiel73:19 74:4 Dell63: 18 dialogue 141:19,22 

109:12,13,17 31:21 33:3 34:2 database 152:13 Dennis 78:15 89:12 diary 157:5 

110:17 111:1,7,12 35:10 36:7 37:5 databases 152:16 denying 22:4 differ 67:8 

113:19119:15 41:12 42:7 43:1 date 36:3 129:16 depart 149:21 difference 24:2,4,7 

Neal R Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 168 

50:19 51:4 131:12132:15 due 131:3 158:18 Edward24:19 25:4 148:5 

differcnt7 :21 139:2 144:9 duly 24:20 73:20 effect 8:20 especially I 06:18 

25:22 32:17 44:21 147:17151:4 115:13 eh's 104:5 146:9 148:11 

45:12,13,14 58:4 152:1 duties25:16116:16 eight25:21 119:1 151:5 

79:15102:13,16 dispatcher 29:15 duty77:3 either 6:15 24:5 ESQ 2:8,18 

108:1 129:11 60:1,8,2165:11 Dworkin 2:18,19 60:1 119:5 124:19 essence 79:22 

differently 22:21 65:13,20 71:10,11 4:9,11 6:11 10:15 127:9 131:2 157:6 essentially 19:14,21 

difficulties 20:3 89:1,196:6,16 10:20 11:2,7,14 elaborate 36:13 62:9 

digital6: 14,20 97:1 138:19,19,20 12:8 17:2,4,8 electronic 150:11 established 17:20 

direct3:3 25:8 138:20 150:2,2,12 21:15 22:12 24:6 eliminate 139:10 38:1 55:14 

66:1774:11 dispatcher's 67:19 37:14,18 41:1 emaill38:1,7 139:4 establishing 50:18 

115:21 dispatchers 59:20 44:8,10,13 45:7,9 140:21 157:4,8 ct 128:6 148:18 

directly 116:18 79:2 94:15 96:12 52:20 53:3,6,13 158:15 149:11 

director 118:17 133:19135:14 55:16 56:3,5,7 emergency 28: 17 evaluate I 08:15,17 

119:9 136:12 138:15 64:6 68:20 69:12 35:2 42:12,20 109:1 

disability 6:4 140: II 69:16 70:9,12 43:2 56:11,19 evaluating 55:22 

disagree 22: I, 1 dispute 131:10 71:14 72:10,14 57:1,8 92:4,7,16 evening 149:20 

disagreed 106:9 disseminated 18:9 73:8 75:3 93:20 98:16,17,22 99:3 event 99:4 

discarded 66:7,8 DMS4:3 93:21 94:1,4 100:13 everybody 114:13 

disclosed 6:1 Docket4:3 103:5,8 112:5 employed 116:5,7 139:13,16140:6 

discover 81:19 document 11: II 113:10,18,20 119:5 120:17 Everything's 

discovered 80: I 0 12:1 28:14 37:2,7 114:4,11115:5,7 employees 79:2 107:19 

108:7 38:10 39:1,6,9 115:22154:18,22 121:15 124:6 evidence 10:3 

discovering 32:5 40:2141:12,15 155:4,8,14 157:10 employment 11:21 12:4 18:17 

discovery 59:10 47:19 53:10 64:15 157:18,20 158:2 117:12118:9 19:3 20:9,14 

discrepancies 68:11 82:17 83:1 158:21 159:9,12 119:3,17 120:7 23:13 36:21 41:4 

49:16 71:6 81:12 84:17 85:7 99:10 160:12,17162:17 124:13 126:14,15 41:14,19 64:19 

85:6 86:15 94:11 99:12 103:11 162:19 160:13 156:2,4,5 

94:17,20 96:3 135:9 Dworkin's 23:2 ends 68:14 evident 13:3,4 

139:10,11147:17 documentation 75: I enforcement 31: II evidentiary 9:17 

147:21 31:1249:156:9 161:7 23:9 

discrepancy 89:19 documented 30:9 E engine 125:12,19 evidently 14 3:6 

discuss 72: 19 31:2 E4:1,1 115:1,1 engineer 119:18 147:2 

112:12 documents 30:13 136:15 121:5 Ex 3:17,21 

discussion 108:9 53:16 56:18 78:19 early 32:2 78:3 enhance 13 8: 12 exact 117:18 

discussions 156:22 88:17,20 114:13 ensure 5:20 exactly 32:7 34:22 

dispatch 20:5 29:13 doing 8:21 46:11 earn 122:12 123:18 entire32:11 104:5 42:11 56:15 62:7 

29:17 47:21 48:8 47:14 141:17 123:21 entities 126:16 65:20 137:20 

48:1159:13,16,22 142:12 earned 124:3 entries 61: 14 examination 25:8 

60:18,19 61:7,15 dollar 57:21 Earth 41:7 Envirosolve 22: 16 55:17 65:1 66:18 

65:6,9,15,19 door 10:2 easier !54: 17 equate 123:10 71:22 74:11 

66:14 70:14,19,22 doubt 148:6 158:20 error 96:16 130:19 115:21 

71:7 72:6 87:11 Dover 118: II East 120:8,10,12 130:20 examined 24:21 

87:17,20 88:7 downward 124:13 eat114:15 errors 20:4,11 49:7 73:21 115:14 

95:20 96:21 drafted 102:21 eateries 4:15 70:22 71:6 96:14 example43:1 92:5 

116:21 130:6,10 draw 67:11 economy 124:15 I 06:3 130:17 examples 92: I 0 

130:14,17 131:1 Drive 116:3 editorial148:4,13 131:6,8,10,13 141:4 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 169 

exceed 95:15 extent 16:16 70:21 far 22:14 30:8 33:2 152:20 148:9 

exception 50:1 extinguishers 79:8 54:13 99:21,22 filling 46:21 60:9 floor 161:15 

excess 58:20 102:14 126:1 60:10 Florida 117: 14 

excuse83:17 92:14 F 144:4 fills 88:6 152:11 flown 125:10,19 

116:6 117:2 F115:1136:19 fast 8:5 final78:7 150:18 flying 16:18 95:2 

excused 73:2,4 FAA 1:44:3 7:17 faster 159:17 154:14 145:1 

112:11,15,19 12:5 18:9,10 fax47:20 60:2 finance 116:21 follow-up 134:10 

155:7 20:22 21:6 25:15 143:18 find65:17 81:12 140:21 

executive 103:22 52:22 55:11 56:8 FDMS 1:8 86:11 114:15 followed 44:20 

116:13,15 56:17,17,21 57:6 Federal! :4,11 2:9 136:10 147:15 127:4 

exhibit9:10,10 57:7,10 58:10,18 4:6 9:8 12:14 finding 90:21 followers 138:2,9 

10:2 11:6,8,13 59:3 63:10 64:2 13:18 14:2,8,12 findings 80:6 105:5 138:15,18 139:1 

12:3 36:20 37:4,9 76:16 78:15 98:19 16:4,20 23:12 fine 7:21 12:6,7 140:3 

37:12,17 38:9 99:9,11 100:9 26:5,8,9,11 33:19 25:12 74:15 following 161:3 

40:16 41:18 53:8 106:9 107:1 110:2 39:15,19 40:15 107:19 follows 24:22 44:22 

53:12 59:3 63:13 134:8 141:14,16 75:12 76:10 finish 4:17 73:22 115:15 

64:18 67:12 69:2 141:20 142:10,16 FedEx 56:16 92:13 fire 43:6,8,17,20 foolproof 62:9 

82:20103:5,12 143:5 146:12 feeder 13:16 27:14 79:8 foregoing 22:6 

134:7,7 135:7 151:7,17 152:12 47:1 77:17 123:16 first 15:22 17:21 forget 110:13 

136:7,13,15,18 153:12 161:2 127:2 18:5,7,1123:18 152:22,22 153:1,3 

137:2,15 138:3 162:7 fee1142:6 24:20 25:3,5 forgot 71:10 117:18 

155:9 156:7 FAA's 18:15 104:9 feet 125:9 37:16 67:13 68:13 form 19:22 28:11 

exhibits 3:9 5:10,14 142:17 161:5 fewer 52:11 111:14 73:20 74:3 76:7 29:15 42:10,15 

7:6 9:3 54:9 FAA-2013-0040 111:19 84:14,18,20 85:10 47:11,18 60:16,17 

159:2 1:8 field 77:7 100:22 85:12 93:15 61:9 65:5,8 66:1,5 

exist 14:15 18:4 FAA-certified 101:1 115:13,18 119:4 66:13 67:14 68:4 

85:6149:15 75:22 Fifty 34:14 126:21 127:6 72:3,6 87:11,18 

exists 18:3 149:4 fabricated 13:8 figure 5:2 7:4 141:2 149:2 87:20 88:5,7 93:3 

153:8 facility 78:21,22 figured 143:21 five4:18 155:10 97:5,22 98:3 

expect 99:16,18 127:11 147:7 144:1,7 145:13,14 fixed 108:11 109:17 129:5,6,8 

expected 163:7 fact 23:14 40:20 file 9:9 12:6 20:4 fleet 125:1 129:13 130:17,19 

expeditiously 163:4 58:17 94:22 160:8 48:12,2159:14,17 flew119:22143:7 131:15 133:20 

expensive 150:13 162:3 60:7 61:16 79:10 145:10 148:9 137:3,7,10 139:12 

152:14 factor 143:17 148:3 79:12 87:12 95:19 flies 125:5 142:21 148:22 

experience 46: I 152:6 95:21 130:8 131:8 flight 14:21 15:4,19 format7:1,1,14 

57:21 100:3 102:8 facts 17:11 23:3,11 132:15,19 144:12 78:7 80:2 85:10 129:11 

experienced 138:22 55:22 147:11,13,16 97:4 101:13,15 forms 12:21 13:1 

cxplain65:7 67:7 factual 17:20 148:21 152:21 102:3 107:22 14:10 16:8 28:21 

explained 32:4 failing35:17 162:7 111:10 118:1,2 32:16 33:13 42:5 

141:3 failure 155:2 filed 8:13 11:17 119:6,8,11,13,18 42:8 60:21 61:4,8 

explosive 85:16,20 fair 95:1,4 129:9 14:3 121:4,5 123:6 81:11,15,17 89:7 

exposed 52:9 fairly 5:5 9:20 filing 157:12 138:2,9,15,18,22 89:16,19 90:19 

Express 118:10,13 familiar27:3 28:19 fill29:8 140:3,11 144:5,6 91:1 92:1 96:2,4 

118:22 119:2,5,12 33:18,22 35:7,21 filled 15:11 43:10 144:14148:17 109:15 131:10,17 

119:14 66:19 90:1191:6 60:16,2192:1 flights 13:16 20:8 141:4 

expresses 107:1 99:14,19,22100:6 128:10 129:21 47:1 78:3 123:2,5 Fort2:13 25:18 

extensive 1 08: 14 126:3 135:4 143:13 123:7,11,13 127:3 100:20 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 170 

forth23:14126:4 40:1147:7 44:12 47:6 74:13 Green 145:6 hazardous 12:17 

134:3 146:12 generates 45:17,18 74:15 94:2,4 gross 34:8 12:19 13:11,12,13 

161:10 151:22 106:17128:1 ground 35:5 136:22 14:17,19,2015:1 

found 22:6 36:9 gentlemen 9:5 141:21147:10 grounds 41:3 15:3,8,17 16:2,6 

49:17 59:12,17 159:20 163:2,5 148:10 group 13:12,19,20 17:1519:1022:17 

67:3 83:15 84:1 getting 8:5 114:10 goods 135:10 32: I 0 34:4,5 25:17 26:2,21 

91:2 94:10131:8 154:14 GOODWIN 1:20 50:12,18 51:2,8,9 27:20 28:14 29:7 

132:18138:13 give 11:1017:4 4:2,12 6:13 9:7,16 51:10 52:5,5 32:14 33:8,14 

139:9 143:4 41:12 43:1 47:3 9:2210:5,12,17 86:18 128:21 34:17,20 35:17 

foundation 41 :3 58:2 101:13 11:1,4,9,19 12:5,9 131:22 151:15 42:21 43:3 44:17 

four 7:17 9:1 21:3 136:11 149:14 17:1 21:10 23:19 153:3 161:17 44:19 45:20 46:20 

23:15 79:15 153:19161:4 23:2124:1,8,11 guess 120:18 47:4 65:21 68:7 

Francisco 2:21 162:13 24:16 25:1,7 30:2 guessing 144:1 75:15,20,21 76:2 

freight 27:15 52:9 given 19:18 96:7 37:1,16 38:2 41:8 guidance 161:6,10 76:8,9,22 77:7 

124:21 102:3 41:22 44:8 45:5 guidelines 162:6 79:1,5,7 80:1,15 

freight-forwarding gives 10:8 46:3,4 52:17 53:5 55:18 guy 154:2 81:4 85:9 86:6,9 

75:22 135:11 64:9,12,21 68:22 guys 149:19 86:11 88:14 91:18 

freighters 52:2 gleefully 9:2 69:6,11,18,21 92:7,15 97:14,16 

front 134:6 145:8 Glenn 116:2 70:9 71:18,21 H 99:7 Ill :4 126:4 

FSDO 100:16 go 5:14 23:14 28:9 72:12,15,18 73:5 H 137:2,15 126:13 134:19 

full74:2 115:17 29:6 37:17 41:22 73:16 74:1,7,22 half 6:8 71:19 146:11 149:7,14 

fully 152:1 48:22 63:4 69:12 82:15 84:18,20 72:13 114:6 161:6,18 

fun 56:6 69:21 71:21 73:7 93:20 112:7,10,20 Hampshire 118:12 HAZMAT 48:16 

function 149:5 73:12 84:15 86:9 113:1,3,13 114:2 Hampton 120:8,10 48:20 49:10 94:6 

150:11 88:11,16,18 97:21 114:7,12,17115:3 120:13 101:5111:15,19 

funetionall49: 18 105:21 109:1 115:9,16155:1,12 hand4:21 9:3 112:2 128:12,12 

15!:11 114:13,18 124:18 155:16,21 156:11 24:17115:10 136:19 139:18 

functions 116:20 127:20 131:4 156:14,17,20 handbooks 100:9 142:12 143:10 

further 21:12 44:7 144:7 145:3,18 157:11,16 158:3,8 Handing 37:2 he'll71 :18 114:3 

64:6 70:8 71:14 146:18 156:17 158:13 159:1,4,11 82:17 head5:2 117:19 

71:22 72:15 93:19 160:6 163:8 !59: 14,22 160:4,6 handle 9:13,17 headquartered 

112:5,8154:18 goes 5:16,16 10:5,6 160:10,12,19 handled 140:13,13 100:18 

future 63:2 41:11128:13 162:17,21 happen 133:4 headquarters 

148:6 Google41:7 happened 92:19 49:20 78:9 87:13 

G going8:7,1115:18 gotten6:18159:17 132:22 143:3 87:14 147:5 

G4:1 22:22 23:1,2,10 Government 3:15 146:19 health 15:15,16 

G-L-E-N-N 116:2 34:22 41:9 55:20 37:4,9,12 38:9 happens 66:4 hear 6:6,8 74:20 

gaps 70:22 71:5 56:1 63:7 72:18 40:16 41:17 63:13 happy 23:2 75:5 96:17 113:8 

130:21 74:17 86:10 82:20 hard58:2106:15 heard62:10 162:18 

gas 85:14,19 112:11113:17 Government's harder 146:9 hearing 1:16 6:4,12 

gateway 127:10 120:9 129:20 67:11 hatched 137:17,19 9:2 63:8 72:21 

geared 18:7 139:13 149:12 granted 17:12 haul52:8 109:2 112:13 

general2:11 100:5 153:10155:17,17 granting 17:18 hauling 34:20 114:20 161:2 

134:1,19160:15 156:12 162:22 22:3 hazard 32:9 35:1 163: I 0 

generally33:3 59:3 COM 100:5 134:1 Great91:19110:11 43:20 55:3 80:18 held34:17,18117:8 

101:17 good 6:9 12:12 144:17 85:15 86:4 126:10 helpful55:22 generated 40:2,6 25:10 40:6 44:11 greatest 153:9 152:18 helping 55:21 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 171 

hesitation 113:4 hours 121:3,4,5,6 34:21 43:7,18 inside 33:9 28:6 119:6,8,12 

Hey 139:9 143:18 123:6,10 150:22 65:16,18 92:6,13 insofar 131:7 Internet 5: 17 

143:20 149:7 151:3 93:6,13 99:5 inspect 35:17 62:15 interpretation 99:2 

high 16:9,10 20:10 Houston 1:11 Incidentally 59:16 63:7 99:15 

34:18 161:20 hub 127:10 included 13:5,6 inspected 30:8 interpretations 

162:5 human 143:17 incompatible 85:17 62:11 143:9 18:19 99:19100:1 

higher 51:9 148:3,4,22 152:6 incomplete 61 :I 0 148:13 100:7 

highest 16:13 hundred 13:21 61:14 inspecting 60:13 introduce 9:9 

highlight 137:13 49:3,6 151:3 incorrect 13:6 89:15 introduced 156: I 

Highway 26:9 hypothetical 52:15 131:17 inspection 14:13 investigate 90:18 

hired 138:22 incorrectly 88:22 27:4,20 28:1,2,5 investigation 27:4 

history 35:7,8,11 I increased 107:21 29:6 30:5,14 31:1 30:8 31:2,13,16 

91:5,7,11 109:8 ID 128:20 152:10 indicate 54:10 31:6,10,14 32:2,5 38:15 39:5 52:22 

HMR54:21 55:9 153:2 161:3 35:13 36:3,8 53:17 54:17 67:3 

98:14 idea 42:20 71:2 indicated 14:4 38:21 39:2,7,11 80:7 102:18 103:2 

HMRs 126:20 129:19 21:20 49:9 50:11 46:19 49:18 54:14 105:4 106:2 134:8 

hold 121:1 125:20 ideas 10:8 58:8 74:19 122:18 59:9 63:2 75:20 143:6 

holds 125:7 identical 59:18 161 :21 77:11,21 78:1,17 investigations 26:1 

homc5:12,12 72:5 108:2 indicates 22:5 80: I 0,21,22 81:20 investigative 30:18 

110:19 identification 85:13 82:2 83:6,8 88:13 31:11 82:3,6 

HON 1:20 11:12,21 12:3 individuals 93:8 90:15,18 91:15,17 invitation 62:18,21 

Honor9:6 10:11 13:13 37:8 41:13 industry 46:5 76:16 94:6 105:16 107:9 invite 151:14 

12:13,22 13:15 41:17 53:8,11 76:17 92:12 107:13,14 108:2 invited 62:14 

14:2 15:9,10,13 55:4 64:13,17 120:17 108:12 128:5 108:16 151:7 

16:11,19,2217:8 80:15,16 84: I 0 info 130:2 131:1 131:5,9 132:8,10 involved 14:17 

17:1121:7,9,14 156:1,3 information 5:7,11 132:11 137:8 27:19 30:4 

22:11,15 23:6,16 identified 133:8 5:18,21 6:1 18:9 151:19 153:11 involving 43:3 

23:18 24:7,14 identify 4:4 15:17 19:16,17,19 28:17 inspections 26:1 44:16,18 91:19 

29:22 36:18 37:3 135:1 29:14 32:6 42:10 107:22 132:13 92:6,15 

37:15 38:6 40:14 identifying 5:7,11 42:13 43:9,10 inspector78:15 Ira 8:6 

41:1 44:6 45:2 II153:5 46:15 47:10,16 100:22 101:1,5 irregularities 3 7:21 

52:15 53:4 55:11 III 153:5 55:2 65:13 70:18 133:10 141:22,22 48:6 60:6 61:7 

55:17 64:7,10 immediate 15:3 84:9 88:9 96:6,20 146:20,21 148:1 132:19 

69:5,10,17 70:8 33:6,8 97:21 98:3,4,20 151:15 154:6 Island 120:13 

71:17 72:11,17 immediately 138:9 99:4 126:9 128:9 inspects 127:19 issue 13:14 43:17 

74:10 82:10 93:18 implement 105:12 129:10,12,15 128:4 43:21 161:19 

103:6 112:17,22 implemented 105:7 130:3,13 131:20 instance 101 :3 issued 14:7 

113:5,6 115:8 1 05: 11 132:2 137:12,19 instant 60:4 issues 17:13 21:15 

154:21 155:10 implementing 59:5 143:14 144:3,8,11 institution 8:6 21:16 23:13,14 

157:15 158:17 important 91:22 148:8 149:22 instruct 72: 19 81:20 

160:5 161:1,8 imposed 17:17 informs 128:18 instructions 6:2 item85:16 

162:10,16,20 improve 133:5 initial 129:8 152:18 items 80:3 92:6 

Hopefully 98:11 in-command 88:7 initiated 53: I integrity 5:20 161:3 

horrible 83:16 84:4 89:19 Initio 117:19 intend 9:15 18:15 iteration 151 : 13 

84:7 inbound 107:22 injury 15:6 interchangeably 

hosts 152:15 127:15 inquiry 41: 11 138:16 J 

hour 114:5,5 incident 8:20 15:20 69:15 70:10 International 10:7 J 139:22 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 172 

James 2:8 4:7 36:16 38:21 39:2 87:16 91:9,10,12 law I :21 55:21 146:8 

12:13 48:19 77:11,22 92:8 93:7 96:3,15 57:14 live 152:12 

January 131:5 94:5 107:12,14 96:20 98:9 101:10 lead27:22 LLC 1:8 4:10 12:16 

.Jay 78:6 89:14 132:7 134:10 102:4 104:1 106:1 leading 108: 1 22:7 27:3 116:10 

JCAH 86:22 87:1 137:8 158:2 106:3 109:18,21 leaking 128:6 122:10 

job75:18 76:5,7 June 1:13 11:16 111:2,3,9 114:12 leased 50:20 122:4 load 19:10124:18 

163:6 68:5 114:22 128:4,22 129:2 leave 148:19 loaded 42:11 80:3 

joined 78:14 148:20 130:4,21 131:16 left 131:2 loading 98:8 

joints 145:4 jurisdiction 101 :2 133:2,6,11 143:21 legal 55:13 127:21 

jokingly 9:18 144:4 145:7,15 legs 123:11 loads 98:5 

journey29:19 K 146:2,22 147:3,22 Leibowitz 7:22 located42:12 92:9 

Judge I :21 4:2,12 K 139:22 148:1,12,17 149:7 let's9:17 11:9 52:1 location 28:16 

5:22 6:13 9:7,16 K-L-1 74:5 149:11 150:17 54:20 107:7 78:11 80:3 98:1 

9:22 10:5,12,17 keep 5:18 7:8 19:1 151:3,12,14,20 114:10 121:8 locations 29:4,10 

11:1 ,4,8,9, 19 12:5 39:20 152:9 153:8,21 131:4 142:15 logbook 144:6 

12:917:121:10 keeps 8:22 154:3 156:22 146:18 155:12 long 7:7 26:4,13 

22:15 23:19,21 kept39:14 158:4,6 159:4 156:17 76:4,19 77:6 

24:1,8,11,16 25:1 kilograms 128:22 160:20 161:13 letter 53:15 62:1 114:2 116:22 

25:7 30:2 37:1,16 kind 14:22 27:6 knowing 16:2 99:1 102:17103:2 118:19 120:3,13 

38:2 41:8,22 44:8 34:15 39:20 70:13 96:18 103:13,14 104:5,8 120:14,16 150:5 

45:5 52:17 53:5 77:15 86:4 88:9 knowledge 18: 17 105:4,6 106:2 longer 93:1 

55:18 64:9,12,21 kinds 13:2 40:10 43:5 50:9 134:8,16 138:4 look22:19 23:3 

68:22 69:6,11,18 Klimas 3:6 9:11 51:19 58:22 150:3,7 37:12 38:9 49:1 

69:21 70:9 71:18 23:1127:22 32:3 known 110:12 letters 99:14 150:5 63:4 67:12,13 

71:21 72:12,15,18 38:15,19 39:3,5 126:19 liability 20:15 68:13 78:20 79:9 

73:5,16 74:1,7,18 39:10 40:9,19 knows 41:7 48:3 110:7 122:7 80:21 81:7 82:21 

74:22 82:15 84:18 48:7 49:11 53:1 55:5 101:15 158:9 146:16 84:13,16 87:2 

84:20 93:20 112:7 63:20 73:19 74:4 Kolko 22:16 liberal5:5 9:20 89:8 103:10 

112:10,20113:1,3 74:13,17 75:10 licensed 13 8:20 153:15 

113:13 114:2,7,12 77:9 82:12,19 L licenses 118:6 looked 50:3 79:1 

114:17 115:3,9,16 84:12 85:1 90:7 L2:18,19 4:10 light 51:22 83:8 107:17 

155:1,12,16,21 91:21 94:2 132:9 140:9 Likewise 136:13 looking 8:19 78:7 

156:11,14,17,20 133:10,16141:22 labell0:2 limine8:10 11:15 89:9 

157:11,16158:3,8 142:9 146:20 labeled 128:7 18:1,13 23:7 looks 125:5 127:22 

158:13 159:1,4,11 148:1 151:15 lack 41:3 limited 69:9 122:7 loss 124:4 

159:14,22 160:4,6 154:5,6 Lakes 91:19 110:11 line 55:12 85:12 lot 19:5,6 52:8,9 

160:10,12,19 Klimas's 37:19 144:17 list 85:14 76:17 106:15 

162:17,21 54:17 63:12 landed 143:8 Iisted68:18 70:4,6 111:14 133:10 

Judges 11 :8 knew 132:4 144:3 language 6:1,22 86:3 loudly 74:18 75:7 

judgment 22:2 know 5:15 6:15,17 110:9 literal8:14 low 161:15,19 

judicial8: 14,15,16 7:13,14,22 8:6,9 Lansing 145:10 literature 18:18 lug 8:22 

11:1714:3,5 9:13 10:8 23:7 large 93:11 liters 129:1 lunch4:14 114:8 

20:20 162:8 33:12 35:11 41:5 larger 19:5 27:15 Litigation 2:11 

Juenemann 78:16 42:18 43:4 54:13 27:16 29:20 46:7 little25:19 27:11 M 

89:12 60:8,15 61:3,8 102:5 111:21 30:11 31:22 35:6 M 140:22 

jug 110:22 62:6,7 63:11 late 36:2 42:4 80:5 88:11 M-A-874:6 

July 30:6 35:12 67:22 71:8 80:4 laughter 160:15 97:15 102:12,16 magic 64:2 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 173 

mail56:3 90:15 94:7 95:2 81:4 86:4,6,9,11 milliliters 129:1 N-O-P79:17 

main 127:10 95:1197:21 88:14 92:7 97:16 million 13:21 34:8 name 12:13 13:7,8 

maintain 48:12 100:15 101:3 98:2 111:5 146:11 50:1452:4 13:9 25 :2,3,5,5 

141:19 102:9,17 103:1,15 149:14161:7,18 mind 104:17 148:7 32:9,13 47:5,5 

maintained 20:4 103:21 104:9,12 materials 12:20 157:14 55:3 68:18 70:4,5 

66:12,13 78:10 105:2,22 106:13 14:17,19,20 15:1 minor 20:16 74:2,3,5 84:11 

95:20 130:8 107:2,10 108:8 15:3,5,8 19:11 minutes 73:13 85:11 86:2,7,11 

maintains 88:3 109:19110:21 25:18 28:15 29:8 155:10 86:22 87:1 88:15 

maintenance 111:6,14116:10 29:9 33:15 34:20 misdeclared 35:17 115:17,18128:20 

116:21 116:12117:1,6,9 44:19 55:4 65:21 misheard 71:12 131:22 138:20 

making 87:22 117:11 121:8,9,16 75:16,21,2176:2 missing 32:8,12 146:21 150:4 

147:9 121:19 122:2,6,12 76:10 79:1,5,8 80:18 85:10 86:17 152:12 153:2 

man 150:21 151:3 123:3,18,21 124:3 80:1 85:9 92:15 misstated 34:12 names 80:18 

manager 25:17 124:7,22 125:14 97:14 99:7 126:5 mistake 133:7 152:17 

30:20 104:2 126:14 127:1,4 126:13134:19 148:14 National 56:12 

119: 10 129:6,13 130:8 materials-related misunderstood ncar 39:6 

mauual100:5 131:9 134:4 91:18 71:11 necessarily 99: 17 

134:2,20 135:10 135:11,13 138:21 matter 1:3,15 9:18 moment 38:8 68:12 109:5 

143:19 139:15 140:5 58:17 60:4 69:9 82:21 90:8 91:5 necessary 5:8 134:2 

March 35:15 141:10,16 142:11 94:22 113:13 monitor 98:8 need6:14 83:18 

117:15 145:18,21146:2 114:20 163:10 monitoring 78:2 92:8 113:22 

mark 11 :5,8 146:14 147:2,20 matters 4:13 9:4 month 123:3,6 124:17 139:10 

marked 11 :6,12 150:22 151:6 20:19 months 95:7,12 155:10 

12:2 37:3,8 41:16 Martinaire's 19:12 Matthews 158:12 135:15,19 needed 127:21 

53:8,11 64:16 28:8 35:6,8,11,20 maximum 16:16 morning 10:22 128:9 149:4 

82:20 156:7 35:2145:11 46:9 Meacham2:12 12:12 25:10 44:11 needs 11:5 

MARKE 0/REC., 49:20 52:21 53:22 mean 34:6 50:2 44:12 74:13,15 neighborhood 

3:9 59:2 90:12 91:6 66:9,22 79:12 78:4,8 94:2,4 123:1 

marketing 117:19 91:10 97:12 100:4 149:19152:8 149:20 net 122:19 

markets 27:15,16 106:8 122:19 153:7 154:8,13 motion8:10 9:9 never 58:19 

27:16,17 130:9 135:17 mcant34:13 14:317:12,19 new 56:16 92:14,15 

'VI artinaire 1 :7 4: 3 142:15 154:15 154:13,14 18:12 22:2,4 118:11119:20,22 

4:1011:16,22 Maryland 24:3 meets 8:15 133:13 157:12 119:22 141:3 

12:1613:1514:14 match 13:11 member 93:5,10 motions 8:13 11:15 157:9 

19:5 20:5,14 22:7 matches 85: 19 members 15:6 79:3 18:1 23:6 Newburgh 56:16 

27:3,7,19 28:20 148:10 96:10 122:9 Motor 26:10,11 92:14 

29:5 34:1,2 35:13 matching 84:11 memo 102:15 Mountain 91:13 nice 108:9 

36:4,10 38:16 material12: 17 mentally 104: I 109:10 142:18 noncompliance 

44:2145:18 46:16 13:11,1415:17 mention 71:9 move 36:20 85:21 31:22 

46: 1 7, 18 4 7: I, 11 16:2,7 17:15 mentioned 59:9 134:2 nonpilots 140:13 

47:15 49:10 50:6 22:17 23:9 26:2 message 141:2 moves40:15 NOPC79:19 

50:12 51:13,13,22 26:21 27:20 32:13 met44:13 multiple 30:7 NOPIC 15:2,11 

54:3,5,16 55:14 32:15,21 33:8 Michael2: 18,19 muster 50:6 153:10 18:2,3,7,11 19:6,8 

59:4 61:18 62:13 34:17 35:18 42:22 4:10 139:5 19:13,19,21 20:12 

63:6 77:10,16,17 43:4 44:17 45:20 middle63:1 146:11 N 29:11,15 35:14 

78:2,13 79:17 46:20 47:4 68:7 midnight 5: 1 N 4:1 79:14 115:1,1 36:14 37:21 38:16 

87:13,14 88:2 76:8 77:1,7 80:16 mike44:13 83:18 115:1 43:1145:17,18 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 174 

46:3,10,21 47:11 81:17 84:19 41:8 55:19 57:11 58:5,8 60:3 89:13 95:7,11 

47:15 48:5 56:10 100:11 101:8,12 objections 64:11 60:15,20 62:12 135:14 157:3 

56:14,19,22 57:22 137:14,22 138:8 objects 55:12 63:19 64:2,12 ones 159:6 

58:10,14,19 59:12 162:8 obligated 16:12 65:10 66:8,11,16 ongoing 116:19 

60:6,13,21 61:4,8 noticed 61:13 observe 94:9 67:6,10,21 68:3 142:4 

61:9 65:4,12,18 notices 81:6 observed 48:8 68:12,17 69:20 op 51:1 

71:3 79:10,12,13 notilication 16:8 60:22 147:20 70:7,21 71:18,20 open 7:12 

84:21 97:22 98:15 18:20 20:1,7 observing 147:4 75:2,10,14,17 opening 12:1017:4 

98:21 100:10 28:11,13,2132:15 obtain 87:9 149:2 76:4,7,19 77:9,14 17:6 21:12 

102:11 106:3 33:13 65:5 67:14 obvious 137:12 78:19 79:11,19 operate 40:11 

108:6 109:11,15 68:4,8 72:3,5 148:18 80:20 81:10,14,19 121:19123:3 

126:3,7 128:9 81:15 84:13 85:4 Obviously 108:11 82:1,5 83:4,7,14 operated 124:14 

129:5,6,13,16 87:10 88:4,6 89:6 occurred 43:7 84:6,12 85:1,3,21 125:22 

131:6,15132:18 89:16,18 90:19,22 77:11 86:8,14,19 87:2,6 operates 13:16 

137:3,10 139:12 91:14,22 93:2 October 117:2,3,15 87:16 88:4 89:4 51:13 77:17 

142:17 143:10,13 97:6 offer 153:13 89:11,17,22 90:3 125:14 

144:13 147:18 notilied 127:18 oflice2:10 26:10 90:7,14,21 91:4 operating 51:21 

149:15,22150:11 notilies 97:8 28:4 29:14,17 91:21 92:22 93:9 100:5 116:14 

NOPICs 14:18 NTSB 57:4,5,11 63:22 65:15,19 93:14,17 94:5 124:4 

18: 19 20:6 32:7 number4:3 7:7 66:14 72:7 87:11 95:18 96:13,19 operation 27: 14 

45:1,1148:9,21 13:1318:13 23:1 87:17,20 88:7 97:12 99:9 101:1 77:15 79:4,4 

50:2,3,8 57:8 32:10 37:18,20 100:19,20101:10 101:7,22 102:7 139:2 

59:18 61:15 70:14 47:4 55:4 80:17 102:21 105:21 103:1,17 104:4 operations 27:6 

70:15 71:1,7 84:10,10 85:13,13 106:12 151:4 105:7,10 107:16 94:10,20 104:2 

80:12,13,14 81:7 85:19,22 86:20 oflicer 116:14 108:3 109:7,19 107:17 116:20 

83:8,11,15 84:1 88:20 89:2 102:13 119:19 110:5,10,15111:2 118:18 134:2,20 

95:2,19 107:20 107:21 122:20 oflices 130:9 111:11,19112:1 operator 54:22 

108:4 126:21 124:6,10 128:20 ofticia197:1 162:12 112:10 113:21 opinion 10:7 55:20 

130:10 132:14 144:5148:12,17 Oh 60:20 75:2 114:2,7 123:2 57:2 154:10 

135:4 151:22 152:10153:2 136:9 127:6,17 129:4 opinions 56:9 

norma17:14 159:18 numbers 5:12,13 okay 9:21 10:14,19 130:7 131:14 98:20 

normally 4:13 7:8 22:14 80:15 11:2012:821:11 132:3,22 133:15 opportunity 40:18 

158:3 80:19 88:21 23:19,22 24:8,13 134:6,16 135:3,12 73:6 

Northwest91:13 124:13 152:7,17 25:19 26:7,13,20 137:14 138:11,14 opposite 102:9 

109:9 142:17 numerous 22:12 27:2,6,10,18 28:7 139:18,21 140:5 order 14:5 17:18 

NOS 85:14 28:19 29:21 30:1 140:15,20 141:9 22:3,3 33:19 40:6 

notate 29:11 0 30:10 31:4,8,18 142:2,19 143:2 81:22 161:5 

note19:14 04:1115:1,1,1 33:7,12,22 34:5 144:7,8,16 147:12 orders 6:2 100:10 

notes 59:20 155:9 o'clock4:18 34:11,15,19 35:4 147:19 150:20 organization 26:19 

155:18 0-N 116:4 35:7,19 36:7,11 151:6,13 155:2,14 original 7:9 

notice 1:16 8:14,15 0-P-C 79:15 38:10,22 39:22 156:14 157:16 Orlando 117:14 

8:1711:1812:20 object 45:3 42:1,6,14 43:22 158:11,21 159:14 ostensibly 98:5 

13:1,614:4,5,10 objecting 41:2 44:5 45:21 46:14 160:11162:21 ought 106:4 

20:21 29:8 42:4,8 objection 9:12 46:22 47:13 49:5 old 120:18136:19 ounces 129:1 

42:9,14 44: I 37:14,18 41:2,11 49:19 50:17 51:4 160:13 outbound 78:3,7 

46:1165:7 66:1,4 52:14 68:20 51:7,12,21 53:18 on-demand 2 7:8 107:22127:15 

66:12 79:14 81:11 objection's 38:3,4 53:21 54:3,15 once7:11,14 78:6 147:4 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 175 

outbriefing 134: II 22:4 27:8 32:10 personal5:6,11 133:7 137:20 29:2 30:16 37:11 

137:8 138:10 39:13 40:22 82:5 57:2145:11,15,15 138:1 139:5 37:13 65:9 74:1 

outcome 154:14 84:15 96:16 136:9 personally 6:6 142:20 143:6 81:2 82:22115:16 

outlined 133:13,16 136:11 162:9,12 128:4 151:2 144:5,12 145:1 point6:19 8:18 

outside 63:4 98:1 participate 151:7 perspective 19:2 147:7 148:7 29:12,19 38:3 

107:21 161:12 particular 9:10 pertains 37:22 76:1 pilot's 61:9 71:2 63:1 65:11,14 

outstation 127:8 12:22 23:3,4,13 Perusing 38:10 130:19131:15,17 105:19151:10 

overnight 13:17 31:5,5 40:1 67:21 83:1 103:11 135:9 pilot-in 19:7 32:15 161:19,20 

overruled 38:4 68:3 85:4,7 86:15 phase 151:5 42:14 43:14 84:13 point's 69:13 

41:9 45:6 55:19 87:10 162:4 phenomenal 91:22 126:8 points 23:16 

oversee 1 I 6:19 parts 79:7 147:9 150:13,14 pilot-in-command policemen 142:3 

owned 50:19 pass 72:12 108:21 philosophy 154:15 12:21 13:1 14:10 policy 57:7,7 

121:21 151:18153:10 PHMSA99:1,6,14 15:14 16:8 18:4 poor 83:16 

passed 50:6 99:19 100:1,6 18:2128:11,13,21 populated 93:7 

p passengers 16:18 phone 5:12 32:6 29:9 33:13 42:5,8 portion 78:17 

P4:1 passing 95:2 142:9 143:5 42:9 43:16 44:1 134:18 

P-A-U-L 74:5 paste 7:4 pick 127:7 142:8 48:1 55:1 65:5,8 portions 135:10 

p.m 114:21115:2 Pat 158:9,9,11 picked 145:4 65:22 66:1,5,12 Portsmouth 118:11 

163:9 Paul3:6 9:1127:22 picking 127:5 67:14 68:4,9 72:3 pose 15:3 33:6 

package 13: 1 7 38:15 39:3,5 40:9 picks 127:2 72:6 79:14 81:11 42:16 

127:19 128:16,19 40:19 73:19 74:4 piece 44:2 148:7 81:15,17 85:4 poses 15:13,14,15 

129:15 141:5 154:3 149:17 87:10,18 88:5 15:21 33:4,7 

143:10,10 Pause24:15 156:16 pilot 15:6 19:13,13 89:7 90:19,22 42:17,19 

packages 127:22 PDF7:4 19:16,16,22 20:6 93:3 97:6 100:12 position 33:17 

128:5 140:19 penalties 20:22 28:18 29:6,17,19 101:8,12 103:20 117:4,5,9 

packing 13:12 21:5 22:13 51:8 32:22 33:6 35:3 pilot-in-commands 117:16118:16,17 

32:10 86:17 52:10 57:22 58:19 42:10,18 43:18 13:6 119:7 

128:21 131:22 66:19 67:7 44:145:17,18 pilots 13:22 34:9,12 possess 40:10 

153:3 penalty 1:6 12:15 46:3,10, 11,14,19 50:15 52:3 94:15 possession 29:18 

page67:13,17 69:2 14:6 16:5,9,11,21 47:3,8,13 55:5 99:13 118:6 137:21 

84:16,21 136:10 20:12,17 21:17,18 59:18 60:2,10,17 119:14133:18 possible 16:13,17 

paginated 84:21 22:15 35:14,16 61:3 65:10,11,17 135:11,14136:12 63:11 163:4 

paid35:15 160:14 58:9 67:5 112:3 66:5 70:18 71:8 138:2,9 140:3,16 possibly 34:11 

paled21:5 161:13,16 162:4 71:12 72:4 81:6 pilots-in-command 43:19 79:5 

Pan 117:13,17,22 1 62: 15 84:19 88:5,6 89:1 15:22 potential 93: 12 

118:8 pending 11:16 89:16,18 91:14 Pipeline 99:7 126:10 148:21 

paper 44:2 97:17 people 89:9 106:14 96:5,7,21 97:9,13 place 29:9 93:6 pounds 125:7,21 

160: 18 148:16 97:18 98:5,9 114:15 128:22 

paperwork 128:13 percent 96:8 102:10 109:11 plan 124:21 133:13 Power 110:12,13 

140:14 perform 16:12 110:16117:20 133:14,15 110:20,22 111:4 

parameters 8:16 150:10 118:5 120:20,22 plane 65:21 144:20,21 145:5 

63:5 period 48:19 123:3 121:2125:10,11 planner I 01:20 145:19,22 146:3 

parcel27:13 77:19 permission 82: 11 125:20 127:5,13 planning 116:20 146:10 

88:18 127:2,5 156:10 127:18,19 128:3 plate 59:5 61:19 Power Point 136:22 

128:12 permit 80:18 128:19 129:4,7,16 106:16 practice 39:19 

parcels 127:7 person 142:21 129:22 130:14 play 156:2 135:18 

part 17:13,18 22:3 144:13 131:1,19 132:2,3 please 4:5 25:1,13 practices 5:9 

Neal R Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 176 

precaution5:8 private 118:3 150:4 152:11 148:20 152:10 ream 160:18 

precisely 97:2 probably 6:17 8:7 153:2 157:13 161:9 reasonl53:19 

preclude 41: I 0 8:11 151:2,4 properly 42:15 0 reasons 5: 17 8:21 

predone 149: 10 problem 14:9,11,11 43:10 128:7 148:18 

preliminary 4: 13 14:14 15:21 24:10 152:20 quantity47:5 129:2 rebuttal7:19 21:8 

9:4 24:12 62:4,6 property 93:8 question30:15 45:3 113:7,12114:1 

premature 38:3 157:7 proprietary 64:3 45:8 69:9,22 156:13 

prcparation44:22 problems 13:2,3 protect5:6 93:4,15 71:17,19 81:3 recall58:5, 11,12 

45:10 61:14 protects 93:5,10 104:18 142:7 110:5 122:15 

prepare 10 1:11 procedure 44:20,21 provide 18:20 154:4 146:21 

109:11 129:5 45:11 46:2 101:22 29:14 32:6 55:1 questioning 55:12 recap 70:13 

prepared 19:7 127:4 126:8 questions 6:7 44:7 receipt 48:2 158:19 

23:17 63:17 65:8 procedures 45:12 provided 47:8 52:2 64:7,22 70:8 receive 158:19 

82:7,13 97:19 92:5 98:16 100:13 52:3 88:22 105:20 71:15 93:19 112:6 received 11:21 12:4 

102:1 134:1 135:2,3 provides 6: 18 112:9154:19,21 41:14,18 64:8,14 

prepares 46:3,1 0 proceeded 78:8 42:10 quickly 159:5 64:18 103:15 

47:14,14101:8 133:1 147:6 providing 119: 13 quote 56:15 156:4,5 

102:10 proceeding 142:8 provisions 161:7 

R recess73:14155:19 

preparing 19:13,14 proceedings 9:19 prudent I 09:6 recessed 114:21 

64:3 130:19 process 28:9,20 public 5:16 16:19 R4:1 115:1 recognize 3 8: II 

present 32:22 35:1 29:2,7 32:2,5 93:10 R-1 3:21 53:9,12 83:2 

117:4 132:8 107:15 108:21 publications 18:18 59:3 64:8,11,18 recommendation 

presented 35:1 141:20 publicly 18:8 56:8 103:6,9,12 134:7 56:13 57:4,12 

president 103:22 professional 163:6 56:18 98:20 134:7 136:8 recommendations 

116:13,15,19 profit 122:13,16,19 published 18:9 137:15 155:9,15 57:6 

presumably 132:3 123:19,22 124:3 pulled 89:17,22 R-U-S-1-N-0-W-... reconvene 114:21 

presume 113:16 program 40:2,3,5 154:2,6 115:20 recopies 130:1 

prctty46:4 47:10 41:5 45:16 62:9 Purple 110:12,13 radioed 96:10 record4:5 5:5,16 

159:4 62:13 63:4,20,21 110:20,22 Ill :4 railroad 76:11,16 5:18,22 7:9 10:20 

previous 48:16 64:1,3 76:2,3 144:19,21 145:5 77:2 20:13,18 25:2 

91:12 109:9 95:14 96:9 108:14 145:19,22 146:3 raise4:21 24:16 29:16,18 39:2,4 

previously 12:2 108:17 109:1 146:10 115:9 39:14,20 40:1,6 

41:1644:1453:19 119:10133:18 purpose 18:2 42:4 ramp28:4 49:18 40:17 59:22 65:14 

64:16 136:11,17,20 42:7 54:20 55:8 range 161:12,14,17 66:11 69:1 73:7 

price 149:16 137:1 149:3 151:1 65:4 77:21 97:11 161:20 162:4 73:13,17 74:2 

primarily 77:18 151:9 153:7 126:7 134:22 react42:21 81:1 97:1,2 

89:13 154:11 137:9 138:6 read 6:19 10:7 114:14,18115:4 

primary 101:5 programmed 152:9 purposes 50:17 54:21 65:12 115:17156:18,19 

principal116:16 programs 149:13 56:20 98:22 157:5 100:14 156:21 157:1,3,14 

printed 6:19 promised 54:5 pursuant 1:16 reading 110:8 162:10,13 163:8 

prior 6:2 26:7 141:11 purview 23:12 ready 10:10,12 records 66: 13 

35:12 72:20 76:11 pronounce 150:6 put 5:21 9:14 10:2 151:14 159:21 78:10,12,17 79:2 

77:1,1 101:21 proper 13:7 32:9 10:3 108:14 real73: 11 88:3 89:13 91:14 

105:22 112:13 68:17 70:3,5 110:22113:17 reality 16:10 94:14 107:18 

117:5,11 118:8 80:14,17 84:11 128:3 129:16,20 really 6:6 16:10 140:10 147:7 

119:2 137:3 85:1186:2187:1 133:13,14 144:3 17:10 74:18 83:16 RECROSS3:3 

142:10,16,17 128:8,20 131:21 145:8,21 146:3 149:18 RECROSS-EXA ... 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 177 

70: II 12:18 26:3 55: IS represent 12:13 92:4 98:16,22 160:4,9,10,11 

recruit 118:5 57:3 84:3 86:10 130:12 100:13 103:13,15 risk 32:20,22 33:4 

recruitment 117:20 95:6 126:5,13 request 11:17 104:9 105:4 106:1 33:6,8,14 

117:20 135:13 152:2 require 95:6 135:4 106:8,10 133:14 road 154:2,7 

recurrent 135:21 161:18 135:13 134:8 147:20 role 30:17,20 

140:18 regulatory 1 7: 14 required 19:19 responsibilities room 1:10 133:2 

redact5:15 21:22 55:8 95:16 80:19 128:7 116:17 150:5 

redirect 3:3 65: I 133:22 136:4 137: II, 13 148:8 responsibility roughly 122: IS 

71:22112:7 138:17154:16 149:22 16:16 123:9 

154:22 155:1 Reinforcement requirement 126:4 responsible 75:19 route 124:20 143:7 

redundant 19:22 136:2 126:20 138:17,21 rest 113:1 143:8 

130:2 rejection 101:18 requirements restate 30: IS routine 78: I 94:6 

refer 147:9 related 144:3 95:16 133:22 restating 104:17 rule8:11,16 23:12 

reference 142:16 relationship 106:12 136:4 restaurant 6:8 24:1,3 72:21 

referenced 1 09:8 106:20 128:1 requires 99:22 restricted 154:10 ruled8:10 14:4 

referred II: II 12: I 142:5 100:6 138:18 restrictions 128:21 22:16 

37:7 41: IS 53: I 0 relatively 20:16 rescue 92:18 result30:13 56:15 rules9:19 23:12 

64:15 97:17 123:13 reservation 113:6 59:19 60:10 ruling69:4 

128:15 138:1 relays 97:3 reserve 17:3 113:16 124:15 143:4 rulings 23:8 

147:8 release 15:5 156:10 respect44:22 45:21 results 60:7 run 102:13 109:14 

referring 20:19 released 33:9 46:22 48:5 59:2,8 retired 7:22 150:18 157:6 

69:2 144:19 relevant 40:7 60:3 61:7,12 retrain 133:17,18 runs 104:2 

refers 129:14 remain 72:22 73:1 62:12 63:12 69:18 139:13,15 140:6 rushing 131:3 

reflect 10:21 32:16 112:15 71:5 95:18 96:2 140:16 Rusinowitz 3:7 

reflected 12:20 remainder 89: I 5 96:13 109:7 131:6 retraining 62: 1 103:19 104:4 

14:18 15:1 16:7 129:21 141:9 142:12 revenue 34:8 106:18 107:3 

68:8 81:16 remember 109:16 respectfully 16:19 revenues 13 :21 113:17,18114:4 

retlects 20:19 40:18 110:8149:19 respond 1 03: 1 50:13 52:4 115:8,12,20 

40:20 remote29:4 Respondent 1:9 review 5:10 30:21 

regard 23:4,5,6,8 remotely 73: II 2:16 3:19 4:9 31:4,9,18 40:18 s 

30:12 70:2 84:7 remove 43:19 7:18 17:7 22:7 52:21 147:10 s 1:114:1115:1,1,1 

86:15 88:12 render 16:20 156:6 reviewed 31: I 0,11 S-0-R-A-H 78:6 

162: 15 repair 76: I Respondent's 40:2153:19 70:14 Safari 41:6 

regarding 80:12,13 repeat 6:5 69:22 53:12 64:13,14,17 94:14,19141:7 safe 14:21 15:4 

80:14 83:6 106:2 repeated 20:21 113:8 155:22 reviewing 30:18 156:2 

154:16 rephrase45:8 81:3 156:3,4 revise 133:20 134: I safety 15:15,16 

Region 21:1,4 replace 160:8 responder 4 3 :2 139:18 16:17 25:18 26:12 

57:17 91:20 replaced 8:7 responders 16:1 RICHARD 1:20 56:13 99:8 119:6 

110:11142:18 report 31:2,10,12 18:5,8,11 28:18 rid 9:3 52:1 119:8,11,13,16 

144:17 31:!4,18 40:12 35:2 42:20 56:11 right24:17 35:7,10 144:2 154:1 

regional2:10 82:3,6 57:1,9 92:8,16 36:2 77:20 82:9 sailing 132:16 

100:19,20118:15 reporter 6:17 37:5 93:15 98:17 99:3 87:9 96:1 97:18 sample 89:17 

regs 128:7 83:17,20 158:6 126:21 102:12110:1 143:19 

rcgular39:14,18 reporters 4:20 responding 54:17 111:16113:21 San 2:21 

regulation 8:19 reporting 116:18 response 43:13 115:10 134:6 sanction 20:10 

17:1518:6 reports 30:19 52:22 53:16,16,22 138:10151:17 21:17,18161:6,10 

regulations 8:18 repository 78:11 56:4,19 59:3 62:2 158:16 159:3,19 161:11 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 178 

sanctions 17:16 sent 102:17,21 68:18 70:4,5 79:6 58:7,12,16,22 104:5 135:12 

sat133:5 138:8 140:19 80:17 84:11 85:11 59:11,15 61:17 special25:21 26:18 

satisfaction 107:5 141:3,5 86:2,22 87:1 63:9,15 64:5 28:1 30:22 31:15 

satisfied 53:21 54:2 separate 162:1 88:15 97:16 67:16 68:6,16 32:3 36:5 38:14 

59:4 105:19 September 7:13,22 124:16 128:20 72:18 83:17 94:8 39:1,5 75:15 

141:14 sequestration 24:4 131:21 147:9 95:10112:10 80:18 82:12 

save 92:18 162:19 serious I 5: 13 150:4152:11 116:1,5120:21 152:18 

saved 131:14 seriousness 138:12 153:2 121:11,22 123:20 specialist76:10 

saying 33:7 serve 18:3,19 shoot 114:10,17 126:22 134:5,9 specific 29:10 

says 6:14 18:7,10 Service27:13 77:19 157:8 136:15141:13 68:11 78:19 84:7 

21:15 54:22 55:21 88:19 short73:14123:13 142:14 147:14 specilically 21 :I ,2 

56:10,18 57:7 services 13: 17 155:19 155:2,5 156:8 30:12,18 31:8 

67:18 16:13 shortly 91:17 sit60:5 61:2 71:1,7 79:3 99:3 

schedule 7:12,17 serving 100:11 show20:13,14 96:1,19 130:17 specify 126:20 

157:2,4,7 set23:14126:4 82:11103:9104:3 131:16 132:1 specs 51:2 

scheduled 120:11 162:4 showed 36:8 133:1 152:2 speculation 52:16 

schedules 7:14 settle 146:9 showing 37:3 53:7 sitting 8:3 spell4:22 25:2 74:3 

scheduling 7:12 settled20:13,14 82:19 situation 42:21 115:18 

schools 136:22 109:19111:12 shown 151:16 43:3 67:2 spelling 74:5 

scopc68:21 69:1,7 146:7,14 shows 47:3 situations 35:3 spent 150:16,22 

69:14 settlement 109:22 Shuttle 119:19 44:18 151:4 

seal5:7 II 0:6 120:4,6 six-side 128:4 staff6:3 

sealing 5:5 seven26:15,16 side 110:16 154:2,7 size 51:5 stand 114:5 115:9 

seated 25:1 74:1,8 76:21 118:22 sides 5:20 small27:15,17 162:22 

115:16155:21 Seventeen 81 :I 8 sign-off 150:18 51:13 52:1 121:13 standard 16:13 

second 11:17 17:22 she'll 6:7 158:13 signal 4:22 smaller 29:3 34:15,18 38:17 

85:11,12 86:21 shift 35:5 signatory 87:3 124:18,20 46:5 63:22 

119:18 ship 149:8 signature 67: 18, I 8 software 150:21 standards 119:9 

scctionl7:16 54:21 shipment 12:18 67:19,22,22 87:8 151:1,8 start29:19 

57:3 126:5 68:14 85:12 86:16 103:18 134:13 solely 145:11 started 8:21 49:13 

Sections 22:8 91:19 97:14 signed I 02:22 solve 108:11 78:2,4 94:9 147:3 

see 13:4 62:15 101:18,19111:10 significance 32:19 somebody 101:9 starts 10:16 

67:15 68:14 149:5 125:9 127:15 signify 13 7: 1 7 102:2 state 25:2 74:2 

153:17 128:12 149:7 similar 8:18 36:9 sophisticated 19:6 98:15,18 100:10 

seeing 109:16 152:17 36:12,15 62:2 Sorah 78:6 89:14 115:17130:18 

154:11 shipments 12:19 76:14 91:14 sorry83:19120:8 stated 17:9 18:1 

seck 12:15 14:16 16:6 30:4,7 107:12,15 138:3 54:19 57:12 

seeks 16:5 48:16,20 68:8 Simple 145:5 sort 7:16 63:20 statement 9: 11 

seen 11:20 61:6 70:3 80:20,22 simply 57:12 59:19 117:21 127:11 12:10 17:5,6 

62:11 81:4,16 85:9 71:9 sought 58:9,19 21:12 31:15 37:19 

sees 22:14 162:1 simulators 121:7 Southwest 21: I ,2,4 37:22 38:14,18 

select 153:6 shipper 79:6 single47:19 57:17111:16 39:1,13 63:13,17 

selective 6:12 74:20 129:19 single-engine 125:6 spaces 96:14 82:7,12 83:5,12 

selfl9:14102:15 shippers 75:21 single-pilot 98:12 spare72:10 103:6 84:15 90:4 

send 157:4 158:14 76:18 sir9:7 24:16 44:12 speak 75:6 105:13 statements 64:4 

sends 104:5 160:17 shipping 13:7,8,9 44:15 47:19 51:20 111:17 states 1:1 25:22 

sense 52:13,18 32:9,11 55:3 53:20 56:21 57:10 speaking 95:5 33:5 98:21 99:2 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 179 

station 29:20 115:13 30:10,19 31:21 106:14,15114:3 86:20 88:19 

stations 29:3 76:1 syllabus 139:19 34:2 35:10 36:7 122:22151:17,17 trade32:12 

status 50:18 140:2 42:7 53:14 63:6 158:8 159:15 train 118:5 135:14 

step 79:21 155:3 synonymous 139:3 65:20 77:14 91:9 third 86:19 151:12 trained 128:2 

stepped 61:18 systemic 14: 11 91:9111:8145:17 Thirty-four 121:20 140:12141:6 

stepping 59:4 20:11 145:18,21 156:15 Thirty-one 125:16 training40:10 79:1 

sticks 145:9 157:8 thought 109:5 89:13 94:14 95:6 

storage 78:11 T telling 86:8 110:21 153:22 162:21 95:7,13 107:18 

stores 79:3,4 94:19 T 115:1 ten57:16 114:7 thoughts 40:19 118:1,2119:14 

107:18147:8 TABLE3:1 158:7 thousand 121:5 133:6,18,20 

stowage 45:19 take4:13,16 5:4 6:5 tentative 157: 15 threat 15:4,14,15 135:12,22 136:11 

Street2:20 8:14,14,16 27:15 tcrm66:20 138:19 15:16 42:16,17,19 136:17,20 139:19 

stuff 47:6 71:9 37:12 38:8 43:19 tcrms20:10 45:10 three 9:1 11:15 140:2,10,18 147:7 

106:4 130:7 54:3,7 55:20 56:1 55:21 138:16 25:22 68:10 70:6 trains 95: 11 

145:16 65:13 67:12,13 test 151:11 79:15 85:8 89:9 transcribed 88:22 

stupidity 143:17 68:13 73:6 82:21 testified 18: 16 122:11 124:5,9 96:11131:2 

submit 157:18 84:13,16 93:6 24:2148:6 50:12 125:17 159:12,16 transcribing 4 7: 17 

161:12 103:10 104:12 58:18 63:19 73:22 three-ring 9:1 96:6 

submitted 10:21 106:16114:3 82:14 115:15 159:7 transcript 6:10,15 

18:12 62:1 119:11 123:12 132:9 Thrown 66:10 7:15 157:21 158:1 

subsequent 31: I 132:13 141:11,11 testify 23:10,11 till155:13 158:19 159:10 

82:2 141:12 143:19 40:20 time 6:9 8:20 22:16 transcription 96:15 

substitute 76:16 147:12 148:3,22 testimony 13:5 38:20 39:7 46:21 130:20 

Suite 2:20 153:12,15 155:12 23:5 56:22 58:11 73:11 90:14 91:16 translate 123:8 

summary 22:2 162:3 58:13 65:4 72:19 105:22 133:22 transport 121:2 

79:21,22 taken 18:14 20:20 112:12 140:11 142:10 transportation 1:2 

supervise 25:21 54:11 69:13 73:15 testing 150:13 143:8 144:5,13 12:19 35:2 45:16 

27:21 127:20 89:7 155:20 151:5,8 151:21 56:13 

supervisor 30:21 takes 29:13 Texas 1:12 2:13 times 40:7 73:9 transported 14:18 

102:22 talk 7:16 35:5,20 25:18 116:4 101:20 28:15 

supposed 18:2 42:3 54:20 74:18 thank 10:4 12:8 title75:14117:18 transports 34:16 

99:13 148:8 80:5 90:8 91:4 16:22 17:1 21:7 today21:16 25:11 transpose 152:7 

153:22 107:7 121:8 24:14 25:12 30:2 40:20 58:14 60:5 transposed 148:11 

sure5:10 21:10 142:15 153:20 37:1 38:5 44:7 61:2 71:1,8 74:15 treated 13: 19,20 

23:19 30:2 36:14 155:11 157:8 64:7 69:16 72:9 96:2,19 130:18 52:5 

37:1 48:22 82:15 talked 66:16,18 74:9,16 75:8,10 131:16 132:1 trend 124:13 

114:11 128:3,5 133:3,10138:14 82:15,18 83:20 142:7 151:21 trial7:13 10:21 

147:9 156:11,14 talking 49:6 57:5,6 93:21 112:6,16 161:2 11:22 12:6 17:9 

162:11 133:9 145:7 148:2 115:7154:19 told 9:22 96:9 122:18 153:18 

surpass 136:4 talks 22:12 155:5 161:1 153:16 154:12 154:13 156:6 

surprised 153:21 taught 121 :6 162:16 163:2,7 tomorrow 151 :21 triplc-6 148: 17 

sustained 52:17 technical4 7:5 thing 17:21,2219:1 tone 30:1 truck 10:1 29:4 

69:7 telephone 32:4 117:21 153:9 tonight 5:1 trucking 124:21 

swift 104:22 105:1 59:20 things 32:8 50:2,7 totality 22:18,20 true 127:14 

swimmingly telephoned 96:11 98:10 108:11 66:20 Trump 119:19,19 

147:13 tell5:19 25:13,19 think6:17 7:211:5 totally 26:20 120:3,6 

sworn 24:20 73:20 27:18 28:10 29:1 38:2 48:6 106:4 tracking 85:22 try4:22 5:9,17 8:17 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 180 

8:18 108:10 understanding 60:14 91:5,6,11 156:12 76:12,14 77:1 

151:14159:1 43:22 61:22 62:3 91:13 109:8 we've 10:21 17:9 106:15 

trying 5:2 92:17 77:15 104:7 148:14,19,21 44:13 128:15 worked 26:4,9,20 

136:10 142:4 108:13 109:15 150:7 161:20 139:9,11 150:16 76:4 77:6 

turboprop 125:19 157:17 violations 17:15 151:16 workers 45:16 

turn 140:8 understatement 21:22 26:2 35:14 Wednesday 1:13 working 40:6 73:8 

turnaround 158:5 8:2 36:10,12,14 38:16 114:22 73:10 77:2 106:12 

Twelve 81:13 unilaterally 5:22 58:1,14,20 59:13 week 7:19 159:10 106:20 142:4 

Twenty-five 77:8 United 1:1 27:13 161:17 weekend 145:3 150:22 158:7 

Twenty-one 122:3 77:19 88:18 102:6 virtue 48:1 weeks 7:18,18 159:6 

twin51:17 125:18 up-to-date 152:16 volume 125:8 158:9 159:13,16 works 62:15 159:19 

two 7: 10,11 , 15,17 update 133:17,17 vs 1:6 weight 10:6,6 41:12 world 153:9 

7:189:117:13 152:15 69:12 128:21 Worth 2:13 25:18 

18:15 21:2,15 UPS 13:1719:18 w well-being 16:17 28:5 100:21 

37:20 73:11 85:17 29:4 47:2,3,7,16 waiting 8:4 108:20 went49:19 94:13 worthless 153:11 

109:8 120:5,15 97:15,20 123:16 wall5:2 107:17 109:21 wouldn't 56:2,5 

149:16 158:9 125:8 127:9 128:1 Walmart 145:4 110:19147:2,13 99:16 

159:7,16 128:11 129:10 want 7:3,10,20 9:13 151:12 write29:15 71:10 

two-plus-year 143:20 149:11 11:417:224:1 weren't 62:22 63:7 148:15,16 

147:1 Upstate 92:14 35:4,5,19 42:3 92:17108:11 writing 8:12 60:8 

type14:1616:2 use 6:20 7:8 41:5,6 67:10 70:10 80:5 whatsoever 94:12 written6:16 36:15 

30:11 33:4 36:9 41:6 65:6 73:5 90:7 91:4 109:1 wife 6:7 55:2 98:19 

36:12 41 :4,5 136:21 138:16 148:16 149:8 Windows 41:6 wrong 6:22 89:2 

43:18 63:16,22 150:12 157:7 159:22 63:22 131:2 137:3 163:1 

76:12 85:6 88:15 useable 93:1 162:18 withdraw 4 5:8 wrongdoing 20:16 

120:22 125:1 user-friendly wanted 110:3 witness 3:3 9:14 wrote 60:16 89:2 

129:2 139:12 wants 6:16 12:5 23:18 24:3,21 

types 13:2 uses 28:20 129:4 160:19 25:4 36:19 37:6 X 

typically 7: 1 7 usually 66:7 147:6 washed 145:2 41:10 69:1 72:16 

128:14 utilized46:2 63:21 washing 110:16 73:3,21 74:4,9 y 

wasn't 109:3,4,6 112:16,18113:8,9 year50:14 133:20 

u v watch 10:18 113:12115:14,19 148:19 

u.s 13:15 variation 66:18 way 5:1 16:1 34:21 155:5,6,11 156:13 year-to-date 124:2 

u.s.c 23:15 various 13:1 83:8 54:8 95:5 96:18 witness's 55:20 years 26:6,15,16,22 

UN 13:13 32:10 vehicle 127:10 109:18 148:13 witnessed 32:1 57:16,18,20 76:6 

47:4 80:14,14 vendor 151: 1 waybill88:21 witnesses 18: 15 76:15,21 77:8 

84:9 85:12,13,19 verbatim29:16 we'll4:17 10:3 73:5 23:7,9 24:2 72:21 118:22 119:1,4 

128:20152:10 verify 54:8 89:5 73:12 105:15,17 112:21 120:5,15,18,19 

153:2 vice 103:22 116:13 113:22 114:13,18 word 4:20 7:1 124:5,9 

unbeknownst 116:15 128:8 158:17 150:4 160:14 York56:16 92:14 

111:6 view5:5 8:14 22:5 163:8 words 49:5 50:22 92:15119:20 

uncommon87:7 78:12151:15 we're 7:11 12:14 51:7,12 95:15 York-Boston 

uncontroverted viewed 22:17,21 23:17 37:3 49:5 107:16 108:22 119:22 

17:10 38:1 viewing 151:8 57:5 73:16 96:9 work7:11,1625:14 York-Washington 

undeclared 111:4,9 violated22:8 55:14 124:4,16 139:13 25:15,22 26:7,13 120:1 

understand 4:21 violating 12:17 148:13 149:5 26:17 30:2131:5 z 52:18 violation 35:6,8,11 150:12 151:13 33:18 40:22 75:11 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
Page 181 

0 120:18161:22 24 52:2 95:7 135:15 653:5 

175.33 17:16 54:21 253:5 13:22 27:1 66148:15 

1 54:21 98:14 126:5 34:9 50:15 51:1 666 148:16 

1 11:13 12:3 64:13 175.33(a)(1) 22:8 51:22 69:2 73:13 

64:14 148:20 175.33(a)(1)(1) 22:9 84:21 7 

155:22 156:3,4 175.33(a)(7) 22:9 26/29 3:17 70 3:5 

1,500 123:5,9 181:13114:22 26012:12 74 3:6 

1,700 123:10 19 85:13 75001 116:4 

1:30155:13 1900119:10 125:18 3 757 52:2 

1:35 163:9 1956 85:13,19 318:13 23:15 51:10 76137 2:13 

10150:18 1989 120:9 52:5 

10,000 150:16 1999 92:13 3,000 125:7 8 

10:20 73:7,12 3,000-pound 8 30:6 39:2 77:11 

10:30 4:14 2 124:17 77:22 131:5 

100 50:14 52:4 96:8 213:19,20 23:15 3,500 121:6 8/8 3:13 

100.013:17 37:4,9 34:4,5 50:12,18 3:30 78:5 817-222-5074 2:14 

37:12 38:9 40:16 51:2,9 161:17 3058:10,15158:18 

41:13,14,18 63:13 2:304:16 30-year 8:6 9 

67:12 69:3 82:20 200 122:22 34122:1 125:13 9:00 1:16 

156:5 2000117:3,15,15 35120:19 9048:16 59:13 

1111:16 2001134:11 38/46 3:21 121:17147:15 

11:00114:8 2009 14:6,7,11 151:21 

11:10114:19 20:11 4 90-day 20:4 48:12 

115 3:7 201130:6 35:12,15 451:10 52:5 48:19,21 59:17 

11999:21 36:16 38:21 39:3 4,500125:20 60:7 61:16 79:9 

1216:7 81:14 89:18 48:20 68:5 77:11 400 81:9,10 87:12 95:19,21 

95:12 96:2 131:10 77:22 94:5 107:14 4105 68:14 130:8 131:8 

135:19 108:12 122:12,19 415-421-2500 2:22 132:15,19 144:12 

12:004:14 123:4 131:5 132:7 44 3:5 147:11,13 148:20 

12:25 115:2 137:8 45 150:4 9119 148:12 

12:30114:10,16,18 2011SW711089 1:5 450 125:9 93 3:6 

114:21 2012123:18 4553 116:2 94104 2:21 

121118:15 138:21 201314:12 36:6 465 2:20 

1360:461:12 59:8,10 61:13 49 22:8 23:14 

105:18 106:1 90:16 105:14 

107:7142:11 123:4,21 5 

146:18 2013-0040 4:4 5,500 121:4 

135 27:8 99:22 20141:13114:22 50 13:22 34:9,12 

120:11 121:9 117:2 124:3 50:14 52:3 

126:1 138:18 157:19 5123(c)(1) 23:15 

15 76:6,15 157:19 207 1:11 5911:10 

158:2 208 51:16 125:2 6 

16123:10 210 2:20 6 69:2 84:17,21 

16,200 161:21 2150.3B 33:20 34:3 

1712:19 16:6 26:6 161:5,14 162:6,8 6/1 148:20 

30:9 48:7 49:6 22 68:5 6/22/11 85:5 

50:7 57:18,20 2332 148:12 6:304:17 

602 23:12 

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 
182 

C E R T I F I C A T E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: FAA v. Martinaire Aviation 

Before: u.s. Department of Transportation 

Date: 06-18-2014 

Place: Dallas,- Texas 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

(202) 234-4433 

Court Reporter 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005·3701 www.nealrgross.com