202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 1

 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

 + + + + +

 OFFICE OF PESTICIDE PROGRAMS

 + + + + +

 AMMONIA/UREA MEETING

 + + + + +

 TUESDAY

 FEBRUARY 16, 2010

 + + + + +

 The meeting was held at 1:00 p.m.,

in the Potomac Yards South Building at 2777

Crystal Drive, Arlington, Virginia, Director

Joan Harrigan-Farrelly presiding.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 2

PRESENT:

JOAN HARRIGAN-FARRELLY, Director, 

 Antimicrobial Division, EPA

DENNIS EDWARDS, Chief of Regulatory Branch 

 1, Antimicrobial Division, EPA

PHIL ROSS, Office of General Counsel, EPA

BILL JORDAN, Office of Pesticide Programs, 

 EPA

MELBA MORROW, Regulatory Branch 1, 

 Antimicrobial Division, EPA

HANNA SILBERBERG, ICL-IP America

PAUL RAYMOND, Ashland

KRISTINA WOODS, Ashland

TOM KEENAN, Ashland

GERI EDENS, MLA/Buckman

MICHAEL BOUCHER, McKenna Long & Aldridge, 

 representing Buckman

DAVID BROOKMAN, Buckman

THOMAS McNEEL, Buckman

ROBERT COOPER, Buckman

BILL PITCHER, Buckman

CYNTHIA TAUB, Steptoe/Nalco

MICHAEL ANCONA, Nalco

STEVE LANDSMAN, Nalco

BRYAN SILL, Nalco

LAURA RICE, Nalco

E. STUART PASSANTINO, Nalco

ELIZABETH BROWN, Steptoe/Nalco

SETH GOLDBERG, Steptoe/Nalco

KAREN HANSEN, Beveridge & Diamond

JAMES BRADY, Ashland

LINDA CHANEY, Ashland
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 3

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Call to Order and Welcome 6

 Director Joan Harrigan-Farrelly

Groundrules for the Meeting 7

 Director Joan Harrigan-Farrelly

Introductions 8

Presentation by Ashland Hercules 12

 Karen Hansen 12, 33

 James Brady 21

 Linda Chaney 29

Presentation by Buckman 35

 Michael Boucher 35, 51

 David Brookman 48

Comments by Nalco 55

 Seth Goldberg 55

Presentation by Nalco 58

 Seth Goldberg 58, 73

 E. Stuart Passantino 59

 Elizabeth Brown 67

Questions from EPA 81, 141
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 4

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

Questions from the Companies of 115

Each Other

 Ashland Hercules 115

 Karen Hansen 115

 Linda Chaney 117

 Buckman 120

 Michael Boucher 120, 122, 123

 Response by Ashland 120

 Karen Hansen

 Response by Nalco 121, 123

 Seth Goldberg

 Nalco 124

 Cynthia Taub 124, 125

 Response by Buckman 124

 Michael Boucher

 Response by Buckman 125

 Tom McNeel

 Response by Buckman 126

 Robert Cooper

 Response by Ashland 126

 Linda Chaney

 Response by Ashland 127

 Karen Hansen 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 5

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

Questions from the Companies of EPA 129

 Ashland Hercules 130

 Karen Hansen 130

 Buckman 135

 Geri Edens 135

 Nalco 136

 Cynthia Taub 136

 Seth Goldberg 139
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 6

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 1:04 p.m.

3 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Okay. 

4 I think we are ready once again.

5 Welcome to EPA and to this meeting

6 to discuss ammonia and urea.

7 My name is Joan Harrigan-Farrelly. 

8 I am the Director of the Antimicrobials

9 Division here in the Office of Pesticide

10 Programs.

11 We have provided this forum to

12 hear the issues raised in the petitions, the

13 letters and the emails that we have received

14 from the various companies.

15 As the agenda outlines, we will

16 have introductions of all parties in the room. 

17 Then we will move into presentations, starting

18 with Ashland Hercules, then moving to Buckman,

19 followed by Nalco.

20 We will take a short break, and

21 then move into questions by the agency,

22 followed by questions from the parties.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 7

1 The agency has prepared some

2 questions for you, and you will have those in

3 writing as well.

4 Some of the ground rules. I

5 expect that this meeting, although covering a

6 very passionate topic to all of you, will be

7 conducted in a very respectful manner. We

8 will allow time for all the parties to make

9 their presentations, the time that is

10 allotted, no interruptions, et cetera.

11 In an effort to afford the

12 broadest of transparencies, this meeting is

13 being recorded, and we also have a

14 stenographer who is taking notes and minutes. 

15 The minutes of the meeting will be placed in

16 the docket, once it is available.

17 Please remember to refrain from

18 discussing any CBI issues because, as I

19 mentioned, it is being recorded and it will

20 also be placed in the docket.

21 After the meeting, all parties

22 will have 30 days to submit any additional or
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 8

1 supporting documentation or responses to

2 questions that you were asked, and if you did

3 not have an answer or documentation

4 immediately available. Once your 30 days are

5 up, the opening of the docket will be

6 announced, and everything will be placed in

7 the docket, including all the information that

8 we gathered from you previously.

9 If any time you should have any

10 unresolved issues after the 30 days, you are

11 free to make your comments to the docket with

12 the rest of whoever is interested in making

13 comments to the docket.

14 Those are my very brief ground

15 rules, and we will now go through

16 introductions.

17 MR. EDWARDS: I'm Dennis Edwards,

18 Chief of Regulatory Branch 1 in the

19 Antimicrobials Division.

20 MR. ROSS: I'm Phil Ross. I'm

21 with the EPA Office of General Counsel.

22 MR. JORDAN: I'm Bill Jordan. I
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 9

1 work for the Office Director in the Office of

2 Pesticide Programs at EPA.

3 DR. MORROW: Melba Morrow, Special

4 Assistant to Dennis Edwards.

5 MS. SILBERBERG: Hanna Silberberg,

6 Regulatory Affairs Manager for ICL-IP America,

7 formerly known as Ameribrom, and the

8 registrant of an ammonium bromide-based

9 biocide pesticide technology and distributed

10 by Ashland Hercules.

11 MR. RAYMOND: Paul Raymond,

12 President of Ashland Hercules Water

13 Technologies.

14 MS. WOODS: I have a really loud

15 voice. I don't think I need a microphone.

16 I am Kristina Woods, in-house

17 Environmental Counsel for Ashland,

18 Incorporated, the parent corporation for

19 Hercules.

20 MR. KEENAN: Hi, I'm Tom Keenan. 

21 I'm also with Ashland, and I'm Director of

22 Environmental Regulatory Affairs.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 10

1 MS. EDENS: I'm Geri Edens with

2 McKenna Long & Aldridge, on behalf of Buckman

3 Laboratories.

4 MR. BOUCHER: Michael Boucher. 

5 I'm a partner in McKenna, also here on behalf

6 of Buckman.

7 DR. BROOKMAN: My name is Steve

8 Brookman. I am here on behalf of Buckman.

9 MR. McNEEL: Tom McNeel. I am the

10 principal scientist for Buckman Laboratories.

11 MR. COOPER: Hello. I'm Robert

12 Cooper. I'm the Global Market Development

13 Manager for New Technologies for Buckman

14 International.

15 MR. PITCHER: I'm Bill Pitcher,

16 General Counsel with Buckman.

17 MS. TAUB: Cynthia Taub, Steptoe &

18 Johnson, here in on behalf of Nalco.

19 MR. ROSS: Repeat, please.

20 MR. ANCONA: Michael Ancona,

21 Program Manager, Nalco Company.

22 MR. LANDSMAN: Steve Landsman,
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 11

1 General Counsel for Nalco.

2 MR. ROSS: Can she repeat, please? 

3 Yes, we couldn't hear you up here.

4 MS. TAUB: Cynthia Taub, Steptoe &

5 Johnson, and I'm here on behalf of Nalco.

6 MR. ROSS: Thank you.

7 MR. SILL: Bryan Sill, Assistant

8 General Counsel with Nalco Company.

9 MS. RICE: Laura Rice, Research

10 Scientist with Nalco Company.

11 MR. PASSANTINO: I'm Stuart

12 Passantino. I'm Global Strategic Business

13 Manager for Nalco Company.

14 DR. BROWN: Elizabeth Brown,

15 Steptoe & Johnson, on behalf of Nalco.

16 MR. GOLDBERG: Seth Goldberg with

17 Steptoe & Johnson, for Nalco.

18 MS. HANSEN: Karen Hansen with

19 Beveridge & Diamond, counsel for Ashland.

20 DR. BRADY: Jim Brady, Senior

21 Research Fellow for Ashland.

22 MS. CHANEY: And I'm Linda Chaney. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 12

1 I'm the Business Manager for the

2 Microbiological Control Product Line for North

3 America, and I also have global accountability

4 for the Spectrum XD3899 technology.

5 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Okay. 

6 I think we got everybody. I was trying to

7 write names down and figure out colors of ties

8 next to names, but I got lost in that.

9 So why don't we jump right into to

10 the presentations? We will ask Ashland

11 Hercules to go ahead and proceed.

12 MS. HANSEN: Well, thank you very

13 much.

14 Well, it looks like the PowerPoint

15 is coming up on both of the screens. With

16 that, we will go ahead and get started.

17 We first wanted to just thank EPA

18 for the opportunity to meet today. We think

19 that there are some important things that we

20 are all going to be talking about today. So

21 we appreciate the time to do that together.

22 I am going to take a few minutes
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 13

1 to provide an overview of some of our remarks. 

2 Then Dr. Brady and Linda Chaney will assist

3 with the rest of our presentation.

4 From our perspective, the

5 overarching context of this matter needs to be

6 kept in mind, although we are going to focus

7 on some specific claims that Nalco has made

8 today.

9 What we are talking about in this

10 matter are competitive products that are sold

11 by Ashland, Buckman, and Nalco to pulp and

12 paper mills in which all of these products are

13 being used by the mills as biocides.

14 Some important things to keep in

15 mind are that, of the three companies who are

16 represented here today, only two of the three

17 companies' products are registered under

18 FIFRA. Nalco has not registered its precursor

19 products, the ammonium sulfate and the urea

20 products, that we will be talking about today.

21 In addition, Nalco's five

22 registered sodium hypochlorite products are
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 14

1 not registered for use with ammonia or urea or

2 any other chemicals that are used in the paper

3 mill setting.

4 Nalco has made a number of claims

5 in this process, but the primary claim that

6 they seem to be making is that their products

7 are not biocides, but, instead, are stabilizer

8 products. We are going to present information

9 today that refutes this claim, but it is

10 important to keep this overall FIFRA

11 compliance status of their two products in

12 mind as we run through these materials.

13 What are the key factors that EPA

14 should be looking at that demonstrate that

15 Nalco's two products are biocides? Well,

16 there is a legal analysis, and we are going to

17 spend a little bit of time talking about the

18 definition of biocide, and then, also, talking

19 about EPA's precedent for registering biocides

20 that are formed by in situ chemistry.

21 We are also going to share with

22 you a technical analysis of what the different
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 15

1 chemical properties are between biocides and

2 stabilizers, and some of the technical

3 considerations and customer use information

4 that is important in answering that question.

5 Our conclusion, which we have

6 shared previously with the agency, is that

7 Nalco is selling two unregistered biocides,

8 and that this action violates FIFRA.

9 As we have requested consistently

10 in our submittals to EPA, we respectfully

11 request that EPA immediately stop the sales of

12 these products and pursue appropriately strong

13 enforcement action against Nalco.

14 What are the features of the

15 products that we are talking about? Again,

16 there are two unregistered products. Nalcon

17 60620 uses ammonium sulfate in combination

18 with sodium hypochlorite, while Nalcon 60615

19 reacts urea with sodium hypochlorite. In our

20 terminology that we have been using throughout

21 our communications and today, the precursor in

22 that formulation is the ammonium sulfate or
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 16

1 the urea, and the reactant is the hypo.

2 Now these onsite chemical

3 reactions are occurring at the mills, and the

4 chemicals are mixed in an aqueous solution

5 before they are added to the processed water. 

6 We want EPA to continue to ask, why are these

7 chemicals being reacted in this way and used

8 in this way?

9 Nalco has claimed that the

10 precursors, ammonium sulfate and urea, are not

11 biocidely active, but, instead, stabilize the

12 hypo. Our technical analysis is going to run

13 you through the reasons why this is not the

14 case, and why, instead, when these two

15 products are reacted together, they create

16 new, active biocides, not hypo.

17 In particular, Dr. Brady will talk

18 about why ammonium sulfate and urea, when

19 reacted together, do not stabilize hypo, but,

20 instead, react with it; that in each case, the

21 reaction creates new active biocidal

22 ingredients, and that it is these new
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 17

1 ingredients, not the hypo, that are providing

2 the biocidal control in these two products.

3 The new actives that are formed

4 are chloramine in the case of ammonium sulfate

5 and urea -- excuse me -- ammonium sulfate and

6 hypo, and chlorourea in the case of urea and

7 hypo. We put on this slide instances in which

8 Nalco has publicly acknowledged to EPA and in

9 its patent materials that these two active

10 biocides are created by its products. We will

11 also show you that, in reality, the customers

12 at the mills are using both of these products

13 as biocides.

14 Now EPA works day-in and day-out

15 with the FIFRA and regulatory definition of

16 pesticide. We don't need to tell you what it

17 says. We would focus your attention, though,

18 on the fact that it does look at the purpose

19 and intent of the pesticide, of the product

20 being used, and it looks at actual and

21 constructed knowledge of both the seller and

22 the customer.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 18

1 And there's no question that

2 Nalco's two products are used in combination

3 with hypo to create new biocides. That also

4 falls within EPA's definition.

5 And under these well-established

6 tests, we believe that the objective evidence

7 shows that Nalco's two products are biocides. 

8 Indeed, when Nalco first inquired about this

9 with the agency, and was told that combining

10 ammonium sulfate and hypo to treat water would

11 be considered pesticidal, instead of

12 registering their product, they challenged

13 EPA's registration of Buckman's competitive

14 product, which uses the very same chemistry. 

15 They did that a month later.

16 And then, rather than registering

17 their product, they continued to sell the

18 ammonium sulfate product and, in the meantime,

19 introduced the new product that uses urea. 

20 This is contrary to FIFRA, which requires

21 registration first and then sales, not the

22 other way around.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 19

1 EPA has a well-established

2 framework for regulating biocides that are

3 used onsite to create new actives using

4 precursors that by themselves are not

5 biocidal. The fact that the precursors alone

6 are not biocidal is irrelevant. You have to

7 look at how they are used.

8 And in fact, EPA has had a

9 longstanding framework for doing this. It did

10 it with the two competitive products here in

11 the framework that goes back 25 years. It has

12 been used by EPA to register precursor product

13 in situ biocide chemistries in a number of

14 other instances which are shown on this slide. 

15 So this is not an unprecedented or novel

16 approach, contrary to what Nalco has argued.

17 In addition, Nalco has tried to

18 convince EPA that it is sufficient under FIFRA

19 for EPA to simply rely on the registration of

20 hypo, but that is not right. And it is not

21 right for at least three reasons.

22 First, hypo is not the biocidal
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 20

1 active in their two products. So focusing on

2 hypo misses the point.

3 Second, most of the hypo labels

4 that are out there that EPA has approved

5 prohibit mixing with anything but water, and

6 especially not with ammonium salts or other

7 chemicals.

8 And third, the solution that they

9 are advancing, if EPA were to register only

10 hypo, would lead to a situation in which

11 anything could be combined with hypo and never

12 be reviewed by EPA. So they could take any

13 chemical, ammonium sulfate, urea, pick your

14 next chemical, and combine it without ever

15 talking to EPA about whether it creates a new

16 biocide. We don't think that is what EPA

17 intends, and we don't think that is what FIFRA

18 requires.

19 I am going to turn the floor over

20 now to Dr. Brady to provide a brief technical

21 analysis to underscore some of these

22 conclusions.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 21

1 Jim?

2 DR. BRADY: Thank you, Karen.

3 To kick off this discussion, we

4 are just going to talk a little about what a

5 stabilizer actually is. I am, then, going to

6 talk about some key characteristics that you

7 would use to determine whether or not a

8 material is a stabilizer or a biocide.

9 Those characteristics are the

10 position of the reaction equilibrium that is

11 involved with a specific system, the

12 reactivity of these chemicals. In other

13 words, what is actually participating in the

14 reaction? Where does the biocidal activity

15 come from? All of those are various metrics

16 that you can use to assess whether or not you

17 are dealing with a stabilizer or a biocide. 

18 We are then going to look at the mass balance

19 to identify the primary biocide in these

20 systems.

21 All together, these various

22 metrics come down on the side that these
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 22

1 materials are biocides, not stabilizers. Now,

2 according to the literature, a stabilizer is

3 a chemical that, reacted with an oxidant, will

4 allow reversion back to that parent oxidant

5 chemical.

6 For the chemistries that we are

7 talking about today, it is the reaction of

8 hypochlorous acid to form some product, and

9 then that product can revert back through a

10 hydrolysis reaction to reform hypo in situ.

11 Nalco, in fact, claims that sodium

12 hypochlorite or hypochlorous acid reforms when

13 reacted with ammonium sulfate. This type of

14 reversion reaction is precisely what is

15 required to preserve the status of the

16 hypochlorous acid as a dominant biocide in the

17 system. The technical analysis is going to

18 show that this simply is not the case.

19 In broad strokes, you can look at

20 the various metrics that I mentioned, the

21 reaction equilibrium, the reactivity, biocidal

22 activity. And if we work down the columns
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 23

1 here, for a stabilizer, you have to have

2 reversion back to reactant, the reactant in

3 this case being the hypochlorous acid.

4 In terms of reactivity, you are

5 getting direct reaction from hypochlorous

6 acid. In terms of biocidal activity, the

7 biocidal activity derives from hypochlorous

8 acid.

9 On the other hand, if you are

10 dealing with a new biocide, in terms of the

11 product mass, that should dominate the system. 

12 In terms of reactivity, that should be the

13 entity that actually reacts with the various

14 substrates that are in the system. That

15 should be the chemical entity from which the

16 biocidal activity is derived.

17 Here I have diagramed the three

18 basic reactions that we are talking about

19 here, hypochlorous acid plus either a

20 stabilizer, ammonia, or urea, yielding water

21 and products.

22 You can formally write an
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 24

1 equilibrium expression for any of those

2 reactions. If you look at the various

3 equilibrium constants that you would calculate

4 for those various equilibrium expressions, if

5 the number is low, you are tending towards the

6 reactive side, the lefthand side. If that

7 number is really large, you are tending

8 towards the product side or the righthand

9 side.

10 Now, for a typical stabilizer, you

11 are going to have a fairly modest equilibrium

12 constant, something on the order of 10,000. 

13 For ammonium sulfate, in the formation of

14 chloramines, you can actually go to the

15 literature and look at those various weight

16 constants and control that equilibrium

17 constant. It is going to be in the order of

18 10 to the 13th.

19 We computationally estimated from 

20 free energies of formation that chlorourea,

21 equilibrium constant for that reaction, as

22 written, is of the order of 10 to the 134th. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 25

1 Now what that means operationally, look at the

2 last column. I am making an estimate here for

3 typical dosing levels, which is parts per

4 million of total active. The ratio of the

5 product, which is material on the righthand

6 side, divided by hypochlorous acid, in other

7 words, the parent oxidant in this system. It

8 is something of the order of one for a

9 stabilizer.

10 For chloramines, it is about 250. 

11 For chlorourea, it is through the roof. I

12 mean, formally, as I have it written down

13 there, it is something like infinity.

14 Now I have zero for hypochlorous

15 acid indicated there. That is what we

16 measure. We measure no hypo-free hypochlorous

17 acid with the chlorourea product.

18 If you start to look at

19 reactivity, the literature has a fair amount

20 of work in this area. Particularly, Dale

21 Margerum in the eighties looked at a lot of

22 aspects of chloramine chemistry. In
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 26

1 particular, he looked at the specific

2 mechanism of chlorine transfer or oxidation

3 that monochloramine undergoes, and the best

4 thing to do is actually quote the authors of

5 that work.

6 The results indicate that direct

7 chlorine transfer occurs from NH3Cl+ as a very

8 active chlorinating agent. Hence, the

9 chlorine transfer is direct, as given by

10 equation 1, with a negligible amount occurring

11 by the hydrolysis pathway.

12 Now the hydrolysis pathway is the

13 pathway that would allow regeneration of

14 hypochlorous acid in situ. Basically, what

15 they are saying is it is all direct reaction

16 here. It does not go through a hypochlorous

17 intermediate for oxidation.

18 You can also look at the redox

19 potential of these various oxidants. The

20 redox potential of hypochlorous acid and

21 monochloramine are significantly different. 

22 Again, this is in the open, technical
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 27

1 literature. Let me just quote the major

2 finding.

3 This is a direct indication that

4 NH2/CL is a thermodynamically weaker oxidizing

5 agent than free chlorine. In other words, it

6 is a distinct entity that has different

7 oxidizing characteristics.

8 With respect to chlorourea, there

9 is less in the open literature. Although

10 there is sprinkled all about various

11 application of the N-haloureas as mild and

12 selective oxidizing agents, they have a

13 reactivity profile that is rather different

14 than hypochlorous acid. The punch line is it

15 is a different oxidant species.

16 The specific references are shown

17 here. It tends to be a very nice tool to

18 execute a selective oxidation of tryptophan

19 and tyrosine residues, as well as more classic

20 organic chemical oxidation.

21 We also prepared N-chlorourea from

22 a separate literature preparation that allows
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 28

1 direct synthesis of N-chlorourea and its

2 purification. We looked at how that material

3 performed with respect to biocidal activity

4 against a combination of sodium hypochlorite,

5 caustic, and urea. At equal active dosing,

6 you get the same biocidal result. In other

7 words, the primary biocide here is

8 N-chlorourea.

9 Now, to come back to that table

10 that I started with, and you look at whether

11 or not these various metrics come down on the

12 side of these two materials being biocides or

13 stabilizers, in virtually all of those

14 categories it comes down on the side that

15 these are distinct chemical entities, and they

16 are biocides.

17 Now, if you look at the specific

18 example of monochloramine, it is kind of

19 midway in the equilibrium constant. You can

20 actually calculate how much, in principle,

21 hypochlorous acid would be there under given

22 conditions. Under typical use conditions,
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 29

1 there's about a 250-fold excess of

2 monochloramine.

3 Now it had been previously

4 positive that hypochlorous acid is 25 to 100

5 times more potent biocide than monochloramine. 

6 Well, you really need to look at the product

7 of the potency and the concentration to see

8 where you get your biocidal action. And even

9 in this case, the biocidal action of

10 monochloramine is going to dominate because it

11 is in such large excess.

12 I am now going to pass it on to

13 Linda Chaney to talk a bit about some in-field

14 data.

15 MS. CHANEY: Thank you, Jim.

16 I am going to review information

17 that shows how these products are applied and

18 how they are monitored in the marketplace.

19 Customers use Nalco's two products

20 as biocides. The paper mills that use either

21 Nalco, Buckman, and Ashland products all use

22 these products for the same purpose. That
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 30

1 singular purpose is to control the growth of

2 microorganisms.

3 The following graphs use actual

4 mill operational data that show how mills use

5 these products all in the same way. Customers

6 measure total combined chlorine and the effect

7 on the biological activity as a gauge for the

8 performance of the biocidal programs.

9 It is important to note here that

10 customers do not measure free available

11 chlorine, and that is the biocidal species

12 that comes from application of hypo that would

13 be present if hypo were, in fact, the applied

14 active.

15 Free available chlorine is

16 extremely important to monitor and measure

17 because overdosage of that particular oxidant

18 results in overusage of other wet-end

19 chemicals. It is aggressive towards machine

20 clothing. It is also very corrosive to

21 metallurgies that are installed on the paper

22 machine.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 31

1 This chart shows the trend for

2 total combined chlorine from one of our

3 customer sites where they were originally

4 using ammonium bromide, our Spectrum XD3899

5 technology. It was then followed with Nalco's

6 unregistered ammonium sulfate and then their

7 unregistered urea programs.

8 Once again, you can see that the

9 trends only are for total combined chlorine. 

10 No free chlorine is used as a monitoring tool

11 for their program, nor is it used it for our

12 program here.

13 Secondly, we would like to look at

14 the trends for both ATP and aerobic plate

15 counts for our registered Spectrum XD3899

16 ammonium bromide program that was, then,

17 followed, once again, by Nalco's unregistered

18 ammonium sulfate and their urea technologies.

19 You can see that, with time over

20 the course of a couple of years, that these

21 two monitoring tools are used as a primary

22 gauge to indicate biological fouling in the
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 32

1 systems that are treated.

2 So, to summarize, the ammonium

3 sulfate and urea in Nalco's products are

4 combined with sodium hypochlorite to form new

5 and distinct biocidal active ingredients that

6 are separate completely from hypochlorous

7 acid. Chloramines are generated from the

8 combination of hypo with Nalcon 60620. 

9 Chloroureas are generated from the combination

10 of sodium hypochlorite with Nalcon 60615. 

11 That is, of course, urea. So they do not

12 stabilize hypo.

13 But, instead, chloramines are an

14 active and chemically-distinct biocide, as

15 Nalco has themselves acknowledged in its EPA

16 submittals, and chlorourea is an active and

17 chemically-distinct biocide, as Nalco has

18 acknowledged in its own patent application.

19 So, these NC2-generated biocides

20 could not be made without the precursor

21 products ammonium sulfate and urea. These

22 products are sold to and used by mills as
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 33

1 biocides.

2 And with that, I will hand it back

3 over to Karen.

4 MS. HANSEN: The bottom line is

5 that the legal and technical analyses that we

6 have quickly summarized here today, along with

7 an examination and understanding of customer

8 use, give every indication that these two

9 products being marketed by Nalco are

10 pesticides under FIFRA and require

11 registration under FIFRA.

12 As we have said in our submittals

13 to EPA today, and again respectfully request,

14 we think the agency's next step ought to be to

15 remove these two unregistered biocides from

16 the marketplace in order to protect human

17 health and the environment. We don't know,

18 and EPA doesn't know, because these products

19 don't have FIFRA registration, and they don't

20 have FIFRA labels, and so the conditions in

21 which they are being used in the mills creates

22 uncertain risks.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 34

1 Furthermore, EPA should prohibit

2 the sale of these products unless and until

3 Nalco applies for registration and supplies

4 all of the data that EPA would normally

5 require and has required of the two competitor

6 companies to sell basically the very same

7 products to the very same industry for the

8 very same use.

9 And finally, we believe that this

10 is a situation in which EPA should exercise

11 its discretion to pursue appropriately-strong

12 enforcement action against Nalco. If you

13 don't do these things, you risk encouraging

14 other companies coming into the marketplace

15 with products first, engaging you about it

16 later, and waiting until a lengthy process has

17 been completed to come into compliance with

18 the law. We don't think that is the intent of

19 FIFRA, and we don't think that is the result

20 that EPA desires.

21 Thanks very much.

22 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Thank
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 35

1 you very much. You are right on time. Okay,

2 so we are off to a good start and on time.

3 I will bring it over to Buckman

4 Laboratories.

5 MR. BOUCHER: I want to change the

6 slides here.

7 While we are setting up the

8 slides, thanks for having me. Thanks for not

9 canceling it.

10 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: I'm

11 sorry. Not to interrupt you, but did we have

12 anyone who is going to be webcasting in?

13 MR. BOUCHER: No, not from --

14 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: I

15 mean from the other companies. Okay.

16 MR. ROSS: Let's wait until your

17 thing goes up, and then we will time you from

18 then.

19 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Yes.

20 MR. ROSS: That would be good if

21 you could go ahead and pass those out. I

22 would ask everyone to do that before they
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 36

1 begin their presentation.

2 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Just

3 pass that out.

4 MR. ROSS: Yes.

5 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: It

6 saves on time.

7 MR. BOUCHER: Thanks for having

8 the meeting.

9 I just want to add, before I

10 start, that there's nothing I am saying here

11 that is CBI. There is also nothing I am

12 saying here to today that isn't in the record

13 and hasn't been in the record for quite a

14 while.

15 Also, I just want to make it clear

16 that, from Buckman's perspective, we don't

17 consider coming here and giving this

18 presentation as a substitute for any of the

19 submissions that have been made or for the

20 administrative record that has already been

21 created in this case. We hope you will be on

22 top of that record or will be on top of that
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 37

1 record shortly.

2 I am going to take a slightly

3 different approach to Karen. I would like to

4 talk a little bit about the chemistry, but I

5 would like to focus more on the legal issues.

6 This is not a typical case that

7 the Antimicrobials Division faces where you

8 haven't seen the chemical or you haven't seen

9 the technology, and you are trying to figure

10 out jurisdictional issues, what you are going

11 to do, and you take your sweet time doing it

12 because everybody is unregulated, and there

13 may be a ranking of seriousness of the safety

14 issues.

15 This is a case where you folks

16 have already decided that ammonia, when used

17 in a very specific way, is a pesticide. You

18 have already said that ammonia, when mixed

19 with bleach in process water at all the paper

20 mills, as part of a process to control

21 bacterial slime as a pesticide, has a very

22 precise use that you have registered.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 38

1 But you made that statement. We

2 didn't make it. Nalco didn't make it. Nalco

3 disagrees with it. Ashland didn't make it. 

4 This is your decision that you have already

5 made, folks, when you registered a

6 manufacturing-use product, an end-use product.

7 Then, while you were looking at

8 this petition, and after you had already

9 temporarily authorized this continued sale of

10 unregistered ammonia, you went ahead and

11 amended the EUP to add a use site. So the

12 problem here is you are acting schizophrenic. 

13 On the one hand, you grant the registrations. 

14 On the other hand, you give an express

15 authorization to sell unregistered ammonia for

16 the currently-registered uses. It creates a

17 lot of problems.

18 First of all, there has been no

19 end in sight that we can see to the temporary

20 authorization, this letter that was issued in

21 February of 2008. The authorization was

22 supposed to last just as long as you were
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 39

1 looking at things. To pick up on Karen's

2 point, that has really continued for quite a

3 while. This isn't really, I think, what

4 Congress or anything that you have in mind

5 when you are thinking about good regulation

6 under FIFRA.

7 Also, perversely, setting up the

8 registered products in direct competition with

9 the unregistered products has had the effect

10 of penalizing registrants who have to not only

11 bear costs, which are significant, but

12 certainly not earth-shattering, but you have

13 to operate under all of FIFRA's limitations,

14 the whole life cycle from production right

15 through to disposal and everything in between,

16 every time you change a label, every time you

17 make an advertisement, every time you make a

18 claim, every production report, every 6(a)(2)

19 report. It is a heavily-regulated industry.

20 Right now, we are in it, doing all

21 those things. Ashland is in it, doing all of

22 those things. And our competitors aren't. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 40

1 EPA is responsible for that situation.

2 Now we all sat around scratching

3 our heads trying to think, what exactly is so

4 difficult about this issue that for two years

5 EPA has been paralyzed and unable to figure

6 out what to do? So, we went through all the

7 typical rationales for regulating a substance.

8 Well, it can't be protection of

9 health because leaving unregistered ammonia on

10 the market doesn't do that. As Karen has

11 pointed out, there is no FIFRA labeling. So

12 the warning statements and precautioning

13 statements aren't required; they are not

14 regulated. The directions for use aren't

15 regulated. They can be changed at any time to

16 say anything they need to say.

17 Applicators are not legally

18 required to follow the labeling, even if it is

19 correct. You don't have any idea of what the

20 exposure risks to the applicators are, and you

21 don't know what the exposure risks to

22 consumers are from any residues in food
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 41

1 packaging, the commodities pulp and paper

2 mills.

3 You know, one of the big issues in

4 this case is, what's coming out of this

5 process? Well, you don't know. You haven't

6 looked at it. And I would propose that not

7 knowing doesn't protect anything.

8 Similarly, in the environmental

9 area, again, there's a disagreement here about

10 exactly what the chemistry is of using

11 ammonia, whether it is registered or

12 unregistered. If you accept Nalco's theory,

13 I guess ammonia is coming out of this process

14 and then a hypochlorous acid or something. I

15 am not entirely sure. But if you believe our

16 theory and Ashland's theory, then chloramines

17 of some kind are probably being generated by

18 this process.

19 Both chemicals are toxic to

20 aquatic organisms. Nalco's own label says

21 don't use this product, this ammonia product,

22 if you are going to be discharging a water
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 42

1 that contains fish. So, whatever it is that

2 is coming out of that process is a threat to

3 fish. Once again, you don't what that risk is

4 because you haven't looked at it. You are not

5 regulating it.

6 And finally, even if the problem

7 could be solved by some kind of precautionary

8 labeling, because there is no FIFRA

9 regulation, it may or may not be happening. 

10 Who knows?

11 If you are interested in ensuring

12 FIFRA compliance, well, then, leaving an

13 unregistered ammonia on the market for a

14 couple of years isn't really helpful, either. 

15 You have asked us some questions about

16 Section 152.15. We all work with that

17 regulation on a daily basis. You know, guys,

18 if you say that using ammonia with bleach in

19 process water in a pulp and paper mill is a

20 pesticidal use, then, by definition, any

21 direction for use that is like that is a

22 pesticidal claim. It is, by definition, a
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 43

1 pesticidal claim. You don't have to say on

2 the bottle of the ammonia that it is a

3 microbiocide or that it kills wide.

4 In its directions for use, to mix

5 it with bleach and process water in a pulp and

6 paper mill, you have said that is a pesticidal

7 use, not us. So the unregistered ammonia is,

8 by definition, a pesticide. So keeping it on

9 the market violates Section 12, and an

10 authorization, whether temporary or otherwise,

11 also violates FIFRA. So, if you are

12 interested in stricter compliance, you are not

13 going to do well there, either.

14 And as I have emphasized already,

15 unregistered ammonia serves no obvious purpose

16 of FIFRA. You are getting no recordkeeping. 

17 You are getting no 6(a)(2) reporting. You

18 have no idea if this product complies with the

19 registration standard, and there's no

20 regulation, production, composition, or any of

21 the other things you would typically be able

22 to look at, monitor, regulate, enforce
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 44

1 against. You can't do that here because you

2 said the product could be on the market for

3 registered uses without any regulation.

4 And if your interest is in

5 protecting the integrity of your own

6 regulatory program, that doesn't make a lot of

7 sense, either, because you have set up the

8 competing, the registered and the unregistered

9 products in direct competition with one other. 

10 You have done that at the expense only of the

11 registrants. It is not the unregistered

12 people who are suffering here. It is Ashland

13 and it is Buckman who are regulated.

14 You are creating confusion in the

15 marketplace. You are, arguably, undermining

16 respect for your own EPA decisions. As I

17 said, it is not us who registered ammonia;

18 it's you guys.

19 This dragging on of this is

20 damaging the reputation for fairness and the

21 science and the good administration of FIFRA. 

22 I think that just has the effect of reducing
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 45

1 trust in EPA and respect for the FIFRA

2 program.

3 Typically, OPP is very careful not

4 to get into commercial disputes, avoiding

5 commercial disputes. Otherwise, things get

6 very nasty and complicated. I can respect

7 that.

8 But, again, if you are trying to

9 avoid level-playing-field issues, you have

10 really done quite the opposite here. Again,

11 you have set up registered and unregistered

12 ammonia in direct competition with one

13 another.

14 My clients aren't really so

15 concerned about the cost of complying with

16 FIFRA as the fact that everything they do has

17 a FIFRA compliance element to it. Many things

18 require prior notification to EPA, labels,

19 claims. Any kind of sales literature has to

20 be -- it is either enforceable by EPA; it has

21 to be notified to EPA. In many cases, it has

22 to be approved in advance by EPA.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 46

1 We can't just change our sales

2 literature or our processes or our product

3 chemistry on a dime to suit the market. We

4 are a heavily-regulated industry, and every

5 substantial change requires a lot of time and

6 effort. Our competitors don't have to do

7 that. If the customers don't like something,

8 they could just change the claims. If they

9 don't like the composition, they could just

10 change it.

11 Now, finally, maybe -- and this is

12 probably the most plausible reason -- you have

13 hesitated to do something because there are a

14 lot of chemistry issues here, and you are not

15 entirely sure if the registered and the

16 unregistered ammonia are the same or have

17 significant differences. That is fair.

18 There are a lot of things, though,

19 that I don't think are in dispute. I don't

20 think folks are disputing the active

21 ingredients that are in the products, the fact

22 that they are quite similar. The formulations
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 47

1 are quite similar. The intended uses, users,

2 and use sites are all the same. The bacterial

3 slime to be controlled by using unregistered

4 ammonia and registered ammonia, it is the same

5 pest. Very similar directions for use, and

6 even pretty similar systems for using ammonia,

7 not identical, but pretty similar.

8 In our petition, we give you this

9 diagram and some pretty photographs and some

10 other things, and explained in detail how this

11 process works. But, basically, you are mixing

12 the hypochlorous acid and the sodium

13 hypochlorite and the ammonia in the process. 

14 We can disagree about what comes out of the

15 process, but it doesn't look so different from

16 Nalco's process. I mean this is at least what

17 it was in late 2008. It might have changed. 

18 It is a pretty similar process. They have to

19 add a caustic to increase the pH, whereas, we

20 formulate our ammonia in a way to make that

21 unnecessary.

22 This is a slightly more detailed
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 48

1 process diagram, but, again, no real surprises

2 here, not big differences between the way

3 Buckman uses ammonia and the way that Nalco

4 uses ammonia.

5 But the disputes that do exist are

6 about the chemical output from these processes

7 that are going on in the pulp and paper mills. 

8 And what are the claims, again, registered

9 ammonia? And I would like to spend a couple

10 of minutes to talk about this. I may turn the

11 microphone over.

12 But, basically, this is sort of

13 our view or, really, the scientific consensus

14 view on what happens with all these ammonia

15 processes, not just ours.

16 I am just going to let David

17 Brookman talk about them.

18 DR. BROOKMAN: Hi. I am Dave

19 Brookman, speaking for Buckman Laboratories.

20 What happens when you react

21 ammonia with hypochlorous acid has been known

22 for a long time. We have what we call a
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 49

1 consensus view here.

2 The consensus view is not only the

3 scientific community, it is also EPA itself. 

4 EPA has written the same reaction in its own

5 documentation.

6 So there is no question that

7 ammonia and hypochlorous acid react together

8 to make monochloramine. So, in the case of

9 Buckman, the reaction stops here because

10 Buckman knows how to control the aspects of

11 this reaction. That is not the case

12 necessarily for Nalco. We don't know what

13 their product is. Nobody knows what it is

14 because it has never been disclosed to EPA. 

15 But, anyway, this means that there is a

16 possibility that other chloramines are present

17 in their product.

18 The graph on the bottom shows what

19 happens if you generate monochloramine in an

20 aqueous system, and a lot of that is stable

21 for a long time. But this means that, when

22 Buckman or Nalco carry out this reaction, they
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 50

1 get monochloramine. They put it in the system

2 or the paper products, the paper streams that

3 are being treated, and it stays as

4 monochloramine. It will stay there for a long

5 time until it reacts out.

6 This is some advertising

7 information from Nalco. Nalco says that the

8 theories of comparing two ways of operating of

9 their process as a biocide, if you look

10 carefully, it says "cell cluster" up there at

11 the top and at the bottom.

12 Cell cluster is showing, we

13 believe, a pack of cell clusters, a biofilm,

14 by hypochlorous acid, at the top. Then, at

15 the bottom, how hypochlorous acid gets

16 together with what they call the stabilizer.

17 They show that the stabilizer

18 carries the hypochlorous acid into the cell,

19 where it associates back into hypochlorous

20 acid. We think this is not what happens. We

21 know of no information that suggests that this

22 actually happens. It is much more likely, we
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 51

1 think, that monochloramine reacts by itself

2 inside the biofilm.

3 MR. BOUCHER: So there are two

4 competing views on the output of the process. 

5 So you have a lot of information in front of

6 you. You will know what our view is; you know

7 what the consensus view is. You have gotten

8 some more information from Ashland today. So,

9 hopefully, you will have enough information

10 soon to make a decision of your own, after

11 hearing from the Nalco folks, what you think

12 is actually going on when ammonia is used.

13 Then there is the issue of what

14 kind of claims are at issue here. As I said,

15 it is Buckman's view that any product that

16 gives directions for use with chlorine in

17 process water in pulp and paper mills is, by

18 definition, a pesticide because of EPA's

19 registration actions. That might be different

20 in a case where they hadn't taken a

21 registration action, but they have.

22 We also have additional claims
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 52

1 that aren't necessarily on the label, but are

2 they are in sales literature. One, oddly, is

3 you can see that sometimes they talk about the

4 use of 60620, which is the ammonia, in the

5 context of producing chloramine. So that is

6 not entirely consistent with the

7 stabilization. It is more consistent with our

8 view of the chemistry or the consensus view of

9 the chemistry.

10 I will let you examine these

11 slides at your own convenience, there's a

12 couple of them, and they are already in the

13 record.

14 Then, the second set of claims

15 that we have been able to collect that might

16 address some of your questions here, it seems

17 to us that there are claims that the

18 unregistered ammonia is used as part of a

19 biocidal system. That happens over and over

20 again.

21 Here, for example, shows the whole

22 product line at a time. Many of these
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 53

1 products have been registered, and I guess the

2 registration just stopped -- you know started

3 stop happening with 60620, for some reason. 

4 But, in any event, it is part of an oxidizing

5 biocide system.

6 More slides talk about comparing

7 different kinds of chemicals used in a biocide

8 system. You can read all of these on your

9 own, and they are in the record.

10 But it seems to us clearly

11 documented that Nalco's claim is that ammonia

12 is used in the context of a biocidal system.

13 So, the conclusion: since

14 registering ammonia several years ago, OPP has

15 not done anything concrete other than to

16 expressly authorize the competing sale of the

17 unregistered ammonia for the registered uses. 

18 As far as we can tell, OPP hasn't obtained any

19 new information about ammonia since the end of

20 2008. Thus, you had early all the information

21 that you could have conceivably needed to

22 regulate unregistered ammonia since 2008 at
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 54

1 the latest.

2 Therefore, like the Ashland folks,

3 we believe that the reasonable approach here

4 after two years of unregulated sale of ammonia

5 and plenty of time to register ammonia for

6 this use, it is time for EPA to stop the sale

7 of this unregistered ammonia, at least for the

8 currently-registered uses. If you want to

9 allow other uses of ammonia on the market,

10 that's fine. But it doesn't make any sense at

11 this point in time to permit the continued

12 sale of unregistered ammonia for uses that you

13 have already said are registered.

14 And after you've stopped the sale

15 of unregistered ammonia for the registered

16 uses, you can do whatever else you want. Take

17 as much time as you like. Do whatever else

18 you like. Do nothing more. It doesn't really

19 matter to us.

20 But it seems to us that you have

21 got to stop authorizing the continued sale of

22 the unregistered ammonia for the registered
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 55

1 uses, because the status quo is unlawful and

2 it is unfairly harming the registered parties

3 in this.

4 Thank you.

5 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Thank

6 you.

7 MR. GOLDBERG: Excuse me, Joan, 

8 could I have a microphone, please?

9 MR. ROSS: Is this part of your

10 presentation?

11 MR. GOLDBERG: No, it is not.

12 At the outset, I just have to say

13 that Mr. Boucher --

14 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: No,

15 no, no. No, no, when we are ready. No, no,

16 no.

17 MR. GOLDBERG: Wait just one

18 second. This is very important.

19 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: No,

20 no, no. You can include that in your -- I'm

21 sorry, sir.

22 MR. GOLDBERG: They have made a
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 56

1 representation about --

2 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Well,

3 you can include that in your discussion.

4 MR. GOLDBERG: -- not including

5 the CBI, and he included our company's CBI.

6 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Okay.

7 MR. GOLDBERG: And I kind of view

8 that as a point of order. Are you telling me

9 you are going to take my 25 minutes to make

10 the point?

11 MR. BOUCHER: You've made your

12 point of order in the submissions --

13 MR. GOLDBERG: Excuse me.

14 MR. BOUCHER: When I am talking,

15 they are taking time --

16 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: 

17 Please. No. Both of you, we are going to

18 move on with the other presentation.

19 Sir. Thank you.

20 MR. BOUCHER: Are you starting

21 your presentation?

22 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Thank
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 57

1 you.

2 Mr. Boucher, Mr. Goldberg, we will

3 carry on with the other presentation.

4 MR. ROSS: Could you go ahead and

5 put up Nalco's slides, so we can begin timing

6 the presentation?

7 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: 

8 During your question and answer, you can raise

9 it, if you wish.

10 MR. ROSS: Pass out anything you

11 have to pass out.

12 DR. BROWN: Now that is the second

13 of the two, and there is another one that goes

14 first. Not that one.

15 MR. ROSS: Does this have your

16 complete presentation?

17 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Is

18 there a second one?

19 MR. ROSS: Is there a second one?

20 DR. BROWN: They are all together.

21 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Oh,

22 okay.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 58

1 MR. ROSS: Thank you.

2 DR. BROWN: They are all together.

3 MR. ROSS: Are you ready to begin?

4 MR. GOLDBERG: Absolutely. Well,

5 at the outset, just let me reiterate that in

6 Nalco's view the following slides in Buckman's

7 presentation contain Nalco's confidential

8 business information. Nalco thinks this is a

9 very serious matter. Those slides are 12, 17,

10 18, 21, 22, 23, 24. In addition, slides 15,

11 17, and 25 contain information that is

12 distorted from Nalco presentations.

13 Nalco will proceed but requests

14 EPA not continue the publication of this

15 confidential business information, and hereby

16 submits that claim again.

17 With respect to the substance,

18 Nalco's view is perhaps a little bit different

19 than the other viewpoints. What we are going

20 to do today is talk a little bit about, first

21 of all, Nalco, the company, the OxiPRO system,

22 and how this integrated technology really
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 59

1 provides a more effective control, using less

2 chemicals than competing systems.

3 I will review the agencywide

4 practice regarding adjuvants and Nalco's

5 practice and its marketing of the OxiPRO

6 system in the context of the adjuvant

7 precedent that exists within EPA.

8 And finally, we will talk a little

9 bit about all those pieces put together.

10 With that, I would like to

11 introduce our first speaker, Stuart

12 Passantino. Stuart is the Global Strategic

13 Business Manager for Water and Process

14 Services. Stu has been with Nalco for 17

15 years and is very familiar with the OxiPRO

16 system and how it came on the market.

17 Stu?

18 MR. PASSANTINO: Can everyone hear

19 me? Hello.

20 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Not

21 yet.

22 MR. PASSANTINO: Hello. Hello.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 60

1 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Yes.

2 MR. PASSANTINO: Good afternoon. 

3 Thanks, Seth.

4 I am just going to spend about a

5 few minutes high level on who Nalco is to

6 really set the stage clear, and I am going to

7 spend a little time on what OxiPRO technology

8 is and what makes it successful.

9 So who is Nalco? Nalco has been

10 in operation for over 80 years. We are a

11 publicly-traded company on the New York Stock

12 Exchange, based in the western suburbs of

13 Chicago, Naperville, Illinois. We have over

14 11,000 employees, of which 7,000 are actually

15 in the field touching our customer. That

16 actually is unmatched in the competition that

17 we compete with. We are in more than 70,000

18 customer locations, operating in over 130

19 countries.

20 If you noticed our tagline,

21 Essentials for water, energy, and air, we are

22 very proud of our track record because that is
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 61

1 exactly what we deliver to our customers. It

2 is what our customers asked us to do, bring

3 them innovation, differentiated service, and

4 differentiated technologies.

5 And we are very proud of our track

6 record from an environmental standpoint. We

7 are also very proud of what we have

8 accomplished over the last many years, some of

9 which I will just touch on briefly.

10 We helped one of our major

11 customers reduce over a billion gallons of

12 water a year annually at their operations by

13 deploying some of that innovative technology

14 that I just touched on. That is what Nalco is

15 all about. We just were awarded a DOE grant

16 to look at carbon dioxide capture.

17 So we are very proud of our focus. 

18 We are very proud of our innovation, and we

19 are also very proud that we have been

20 recognized as part of that contribution to

21 industry by being a member of the Dow Jones

22 Sustainability Index member for the last
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 62

1 couple of years, a very prestigious member. 

2 Of the roughly 2800 companies that are on the

3 Stock Exchange, the Dow Jones Sustainability

4 Index is set aside for about 317 companies.

5 So what is OxiPRO and what makes

6 it successful, and why do our customers want

7 to buy it? Three components, and I think it

8 is important that we really set the stage here

9 for what OxiPRO is.

10 Yes, there is a chemistry

11 component. But, equally as important, there

12 is the proactive monitoring tools and the

13 onsite expertise that I just mentioned, the

14 7,000 people. There are 7,000 technical,

15 well-trained technical service employees that

16 are involved with our customer processes and

17 have real customer intimacy, to let us know

18 how to apply the technologies that we develop.

19 So the chemistry. Three

20 components. It is the EPA-registered sodium

21 hypochlorite. These chemistries have been

22 around, as you have heard, for many, many
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 63

1 years. This isn't something that was just

2 developed. We use a pH buffer and a halogen

3 stabilizer.

4 Proactive monitoring tools gives

5 us real insight, real high monitoring, 24/7

6 monitoring of our customers' processes.

7 Could I have another microphone?

8 The second component is, as I was

9 mentioning, the proactive monitoring tools. 

10 They give us 24/7 real-time monitoring of what

11 is going on in our customers' process from a

12 microbial activity and fouling standpoint.

13 And then, I have already touched

14 on the fact that those well-trained technical

15 experts take the data that the tools are

16 providing them, they interpret the data, and

17 they make the appropriate selections for how

18 to dose the chemistry.

19 What that allows us to do is

20 really, at the end of the day, use the minimum

21 amount of chemical required to meet our

22 customers' key parameters.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 64

1 You've actually already seen this

2 slide, strangely enough, and we can leave that

3 discussion for another day. But you can see

4 that we take the EPA-registered sodium

5 hypochlorite with the pH buffer through our

6 proprietary piece of equipment. We mix it. 

7 We add the halogen stabilizer. We mix it

8 again. And we push it with carrier water into

9 our customers' process. Again, knowing where

10 to feed it, how to feed it, when to feed it is

11 very critical.

12 So what makes OxiPRO successful? 

13 Well, it is the components. It is the three

14 components that I just mentioned. It is much

15 more than chemistry.

16 This is what our customers are

17 asking us to bring them. This is what our

18 customers are asking us to deliver and focus

19 on, which is innovation and differentiated

20 solutions.

21 We take the treatment program. We

22 have the capability of understanding what the
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 65

1 appropriate chemistries there are to feed; as

2 I have mentioned, what, when, how much, and

3 where. We take the monitoring tools, which

4 provide us real-time, 24/7 information. We

5 take the technical service reps, as well as

6 our R&D, to interpret that data.

7 MR. ROSS: Sorry. Can I just ask

8 you a question, so that we are all singing out

9 of the same book here at least?

10 MR. PASSANTINO: Sure.

11 MR. ROSS: By halogen stabilizer,

12 is that what you are using to refer to ammonia

13 today? Is that the term you're using --

14 MR. PASSANTINO: Yes.

15 MR. ROSS: -- to refer to ammonia?

16 MR. PASSANTINO: Yes.

17 MR. ROSS: So, where we see

18 "halogen stabilizer", we should sort of say

19 that is where you are saying ammonia fits in?

20 MR. PASSANTINO: That's correct.

21 MR. ROSS: Thank you.

22 MR. PASSANTINO: You are welcome.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 66

1 And then we link it back to what

2 our customers really want. And what they

3 really want is a paper machine system to run

4 efficiently and effectively, using the least

5 amount of chemicals possible. That helps them

6 with their environmental footprint, and that

7 is what Nalco delivers. And that is what

8 makes OxiPRO successful, and that is why our

9 customers are very anxious to buy this

10 technology.

11 So, with that, I will turn it over

12 to Elizabeth.

13 MR. GOLDBERG: Elizabeth Brown is

14 our next speaker. Elizabeth is a PhD

15 entomologist. She's worked in the area of

16 pesticides for decades. She has worked in the

17 ag chem area as well as in the antimicrobial

18 area, and has really mastered the sort of

19 regime surrounding the handling of adjuvants

20 by EPA in the States. That is mostly what she

21 will be speaking to.

22 Elizabeth?
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 67

1 DR. BROWN: Thank you.

2 When EPA first registered the

3 separately-added ammonia products, it raised

4 significant regulatory concerns to us for both

5 a procedural and a substantive basis. That is

6 why we filed the request with EPA to

7 reconsider those registrations, because they

8 appear to dramatically expand the scope of

9 FIFRA to a whole new range of products that

10 never previously had been considered.

11 I am going to briefly talk about

12 four different areas. One is that EPA has

13 long acknowledged that pesticides do not

14 include separately-added adjuvants. It is not

15 within their scope. That halogen stabilizers

16 not precursors -- and again, there is a lot of

17 history of EPA's work on this, and it is not

18 consistent with registration of both products. 

19 None of the stabilizers, whether it is

20 halogens or any other active ingredient, are

21 pesticidal.

22 And finally, the regulatory
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 68

1 framework and implications across the entire

2 pesticide program really do need to be

3 considered.

4 EPA has made it very clear that it

5 has no authority to regulate separately-added

6 adjuvants. They are not subject to

7 registration under FIFRA.

8 This was actually most recently

9 reiterated just this last December in relation

10 to the glyphosate re-registration review final

11 work plan, where when asked, in response to a

12 question about will they look at adjuvants

13 used with that product, the EPA said, no, only

14 those that are an intrinsic part of the actual

15 formulation itself.

16 There are a lot of different inert

17 ingredients in pesticide products. These are

18 not active. These are all inert ingredients

19 which are known to be used or the inside of

20 pesticide products. If these were added

21 separately, however, they still would not be

22 active. They would be separately-added
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 69

1 adjuvants, not subject to regulation under

2 FIFRA.

3 There are a lot of states that do

4 register -- actually, about five states, I

5 believe that actually require adjuvant

6 registration. And if you go and look to see

7 what they have registered, you will see

8 registrations for all of these kinds of

9 products and many, many others.

10 Let's talk for a minute about

11 ammonium sulfate as an adjuvant. Ammonium

12 sulfate is a well-known adjuvant in crops. I

13 am going to pass around two separate examples

14 of adjuvant labels for ammonium sulfate that

15 are used in agriculture.

16 While they call these things water

17 conditioners, it is also very clear that it

18 results in a reaction between the herbicide

19 and the ammonium ion, forming the ion of amine

20 salt of the pesticide.

21 These labels claim that they

22 enhance and extend the performance. They
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 70

1 prevent degradation. They prevent tie-up.

2 If you look at California, which

3 is one of the states that actually registers

4 adjuvants, there are over 36 different ammonia

5 sulfate products that are registered as

6 adjuvants in California for crop use.

7 In fact, the use of separately8 added stabilizers is no different for

9 industrial or drinking water use than it is

10 for any other use. EPA has not ever

11 identified that you really do need to register

12 those. They have never identified, despite

13 well knowing that chloramine is used in

14 drinking water, that that required

15 registration. Even though EPA is required by

16 law to register drinking water disinfectants,

17 they have not required either chloramine or

18 any ammonia stabilizer that is used to produce

19 the chloramine to be registered for that, nor

20 do they require the directions for use.

21 There has never been an example

22 that we have found where EPA has clearly
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 71

1 identified or said that any of these

2 separately-added adjuvants, regardless of

3 their purpose, are precursors to pesticidal

4 active ingredients.

5 Even where you are going to making

6 an amine form, whether it is a halogen in

7 drinking water or somewhere else, you have

8 never identified that it is necessary to

9 register the adjuvant, the stabilizer that is

10 used to do it, even though you are well-aware

11 that it exists, and have been aware that it

12 exists for a long time. In fact, you have

13 addressed the known presence through the

14 registration of the chlorine source, which we

15 believe is appropriate.

16 Where you have registered a

17 precursor, such as sodium chlorite or ammonium

18 bromide, the activator, even if it is

19 mentioned on the label, does not require EPA

20 registration as a pesticide. It must be used. 

21 It is required, but it is not registered as a

22 pesticide itself.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 72

1 This is similar to the use of

2 dimethylhydantoin, cyanuric acid, or the many,

3 many other ammonia-based compounds. None of

4 them are biocidal. In fact, even if they were

5 present as part of an antimicrobial pesticide

6 product, they would be judged as inert because

7 they have no independent pesticidal activity.

8 All right. The existing

9 registrations we believe were granted in

10 violation of both state statute and

11 regulation. The ammonia, as it is identified

12 on the product, is apparently not what is

13 actually in the product.

14 But, furthermore, the required

15 publication of receipt and decision and

16 supporting documents were not provided. And

17 since there was no timely opportunity for

18 public comment prior to registration, Nalco

19 has had to come in after the fact to provide

20 the types of public comments and the

21 additional information that we believe the

22 agency needed to consider.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 73

1 Finally, we believe that the

2 implication of any decision that adjuvants or

3 any subset must be required as pesticides

4 really does have an impact that goes across

5 the entire pesticide program. It is not

6 restricted to any single area.

7 Thank you.

8 MR. GOLDBERG: So that brings us

9 to what do we hope EPA will take a look at.

10 First, I think, from the company's

11 perspective, it is important that the EPA

12 recognize Nalco is committed to

13 sustainability, to innovation, and to

14 regulatory compliance; that this technology

15 really has resulted in better control, less

16 chemical use. And therefore, it has been very

17 popular with customers. In fact, undoubtedly,

18 the reason the other companies are raising

19 issues here is because in the marketplace

20 Nalco has been fairly successful.

21 Nalco very much favors a

22 transparent process. We thought that the
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 74

1 docket would be open by now. We are

2 disappointed that it is not. We hope that EPA

3 will open a public docket and provide everyone

4 with an interest in this with an opportunity

5 to participate.

6 We feel as though it is very

7 important that the agency get that input

8 before it makes a decision, so that you can

9 really have a complete perspective on the

10 impact of the decision from everyone who might

11 be affected by it.

12 Nalco did a whole lot of due

13 diligence before embarking on the OxiPRO

14 system. Now this was in the early 2000

15 period.

16 But, as I listened this morning,

17 there was at the time absolutely no evidence

18 that EPA would require registration of

19 separately-added nitrogen sources that would

20 be used with registered chlorine. As

21 Elizabeth just said, virtually the same

22 technology is used in drinking water. In
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 75

1 drinking water and, indeed, in industrial

2 water treatment, and amount of chlorine was

3 addressed as part of the rep.

4 There are many, many different

5 categories of adjuvants that react with the

6 pesticide, stabilizers, safeners,

7 intensifiers, catalysts, synergists. All of

8 them react.

9 So far as we know, EPA has never

10 taken a look at what the reaction products are

11 and tried to say, oh, we need to pay attention

12 to those as separately-added or as new active

13 ingredients.

14 And what is interesting about all

15 of these adjuvants is that all of them claim

16 that they make the pesticide work better. 

17 That is exactly what Nalco claims about the

18 non-pesticidal parts of the OxiPRO system. 

19 The nitrogen source, be it ammonia or urea,

20 and, indeed, the pH balancing that it does.

21 All those do is make the pesticide, the

22 chorine work better, and those are perfectly-
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 76

1 acceptable claims for adjuvants, if you look

2 across the broad spectrum of adjuvants that

3 are sold and are regularly used today.

4 So, how does Nalco's system fit

5 within this regime? The Nalco system is,

6 basically, a tank rinse. It contains a

7 registered pesticide, sodium hypochlorite. It

8 contains an adjuvant, a halogen stabilizer,

9 and a pH adjustment. The active ingredient is

10 registered. It is used in a manner that is

11 consistent with the label. The adjuvant in

12 those states that require adjuvant

13 registration is recognized by the state as an

14 adjuvant and registered as an adjuvant.

15 So there is no question but that

16 the biocidal activity comes from the

17 registered ingredient, and it is basically a

18 typical tank rinse. The stabilizer simply

19 serves to get the chlorine to where it is

20 needed to kill microorganisms and not have it

21 be consumed earlier in the process with

22 organic matter that doesn't need to be
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 77

1 controlled.

2 And again, the claims that Nalco

3 makes for its system are simply that the

4 system is effective. The system contains a

5 biocide. There should be no problem with a

6 claim about its separately-added ingredients

7 that are added separately to the biocide.

8 Now, in Nalco's view, this is

9 where the inquiry ought to end. This really

10 is completely consistent with the broad

11 precedent that governs not only drinking

12 water, but also the use of adjuvants across

13 the broad spectrum of agricultural uses.

14 While today's presentation about

15 the chemistry was impressive, the question is,

16 has anyone ever done that for any separately17 added adjuvant, to determine what the reaction

18 products are for any of these other materials? 

19 I think that I would submit that the answer is

20 no.

21 Now, even if one accepts that

22 monochloramine is an active ingredient, there,
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 78

1 nevertheless, are two problems with what

2 Buckman and Ashland are advocating here. The

3 first is that all of those systems that we

4 have been able to identify have the source of

5 the active ingredient, the source of the

6 active moiety, as the registered ingredient. 

7 So, in the case of a system based on

8 monochloramine, it would be the chlorine

9 source that would have to be registered. And

10 that is exactly what Nalco has registered and

11 uses.

12 That is why, in registering

13 Buckman's ammonia product, EPA has departed

14 from decades of its own precedent of

15 registering the contributor of the active

16 moiety where there are precursor systems.

17 The other problem is that, if EPA

18 were to accept what Ashland and Buckman are

19 saying, you would need to evaluate all of the

20 reaction products of all of these different

21 kinds of separately-added inerts to determine

22 whether any of them was a new active
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 79

1 ingredient. Now that is a Herculean task. It

2 would cause dramatic marketplace disruptions,

3 and it is not necessary in this situation.

4 So, you know, where Nalco comes

5 out on this is that, as a matter of merits,

6 what Nalco is doing is appropriate; that EPA,

7 perhaps because it didn't have complete

8 information, perhaps because all of the

9 information now available wasn't put in front

10 of it at the time it registered Buckman's

11 ammonia product, that that registration was

12 improvidently granted and should be canceled.

13 Nalco also believes EPA should

14 issue a clear statement that separately-added

15 adjuvants, including stabilizers for halogen16 based compounds, whether that be in drinking

17 water, swimming pools, or industrial water

18 treatment, all of those are separately-added

19 adjuvants and don't require registration.

20 Finally, in the event that EPA

21 really doesn't want to get to adherence, there

22 is the procedural point. There is no dispute
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 80

1 that the Buckman registration was issued

2 without compliance with EPA's own procedures. 

3 The precedent that you all established in

4 canceling the Bayer herbicide product based on

5 the New York court decision dictates that you

6 do the same thing here.

7 If you were to restart the process

8 and have public comment before issuing the

9 registration, as you were lawfully required to

10 do, we would not be in this situation today,

11 and I daresay you would make a different

12 decision.

13 Interestingly, that, too, won't

14 disturb the current situation in the

15 marketplace. We are not asking to take

16 anybody off the market. What we are saying

17 is, effectively, withdraw the improvidently18 granted registration and then evaluate, if you

19 are going to start looking at in-situ

20 generated biocides, evaluate them through a

21 public process and make a decision.

22 Thank you.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 81

1 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Thank

2 you all.

3 Okay, we will take a 15-minute

4 break and be back.

5 You guys have been here probably

6 so often, you know where everything is. But

7 there's a little coffee shop across the

8 bridge. The restroom for men is down the

9 hall, and for women it is you go through here

10 and down the hall. You will find it.

11 Thank you, and I will see you back

12 in a few minutes.

13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

14 matter went off the record at 2:25 p.m. and

15 resumed at 2:42 p.m.)

16 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Okay. 

17 Why don't we go ahead and get started?

18 As I mentioned, EPA had some

19 questions, and I believe you all have a copy

20 of those. I will turn it over to Bill Jordan,

21 and he is going to kick it off.

22 We have changed the microphones. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 82

1 So we don't have as many, but, hopefully,

2 these work better than the ones we had before. 

3 So we will just have to share.

4 MR. JORDAN: Thank you, Joan.

5 I am Bill Jordan, and I am

6 relative newcomer and veteran to this. I

7 actually used to work once upon a time in the

8 Antimicrobials Division back in 2008 and heard

9 about this issue at that time. Then I left

10 AD, confident that I would never have to deal

11 with it again, and I was wrong, obviously. I

12 came back, was drawn into this discussion in

13 the last few weeks.

14 So, in preparation for this

15 meeting, I met and talked with my colleagues

16 in the Office of General Counsel and the

17 Antimicrobials Division, and we collectively

18 drafted a series of questions which we have

19 distributed to you. I am going to take a

20 moment or two and kind of set the table,

21 talking about what we are interested in

22 understanding and thinking through, and then
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 83

1 pose some questions to representatives of the

2 company.

3 The first thing to say is that it

4 seems to us fairly obvious that the threshold

5 question is whether the products being

6 distributed, sold and distributed, by Buckman

7 and Ashland Hercules and Nalco should be

8 treated as pesticides. And therefore, if they

9 are pesticides, whether they should be

10 registered under FIFRA or not.

11 So the first question that you see

12 on the page, on the handout, draws your

13 attention to the applicable section of the

14 regulations supporting CFR 152.15 and some of

15 the text of that particular regulation, 

16 then, poses questions about how that

17 regulatory text applies in the context of

18 these specific products. I am going to be

19 asking a couple of questions in a moment to

20 get into the details of how you see that

21 regulation fitting or not fitting with the

22 facts of these products.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 84

1 The second big area is one that I

2 guess I want to talk a little bit about as

3 well and set the table for it. We recognize,

4 simply by the number of people here

5 representing the companies, and how well6 dressed you all are, that this has big

7 financial stakes for the folks involved. We

8 are mindful of that.

9 But I will tell you that, for us

10 at EPA, one of the more important

11 considerations in doing our jobs here, and we

12 think really the thrust of FIFRA, is to focus

13 on protection of human health and the

14 environment.

15 So the second question really

16 addresses, what are the human health and

17 environmental implications from our decision

18 to register or not to register these products?

19 The third question that I want to

20 talk about is related to something that

21 several of the presentations -- a couple of

22 the presentations -- referred to, and that is
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 85

1 the broader implications beyond the specific

2 circumstances of the debate about the

3 registration status of these ammonia products

4 used in the pulp and paper/board industries.

5 Mr. Goldberg's comments addressed

6 that a lot, but I would be interested and we

7 will be asking you in the time here to talk

8 about the implications beyond simply this

9 context, whether it be other substances or

10 other applications of this technology, and

11 what distinctions, if any, can be drawn across

12 these different situations.

13 Questions 4 and 5 really relate to

14 more specific focus on these particular

15 products, and particularly on urea product,

16 which we understand is being sold by Nalco,

17 and whether it is essentially in the same

18 status or should be treated in the same way as

19 an ammonia product or whether it should be

20 treated differently.

21 So, with that as an introduction,

22 let me start off by asking, and mindful of the
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 86

1 time, asking you to be brief in your

2 responses, whether there are meaningful

3 differences between the claims being made for

4 the Ashland Hercules and Buckman products

5 versus the Nalco products in terms of the

6 pesticidal activity.

7 Let me ask Mr. Goldberg to speak,

8 or one of your colleagues to speak, to that

9 question, and then turn to the representatives

10 of the other companies.

11 MR. GOLDBERG: Well, I think that

12 my own view of this is that the claims that

13 Nalco makes for the OxiPRO system are to

14 control microorganisms and foul in pulp and

15 paper mills. In terms of claims, Nalco is

16 very clear, and its customers are very clear,

17 that the registered sodium hypochlorite is the

18 active component to the system, that the pH

19 adjuster and the adjuvant, nitrogen source,

20 are non-active components.

21 We do claim that the system is

22 effective, that the system allows the use of
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 87

1 fewer chemicals and results in better control,

2 but don't make any claims directly for

3 anything other than the registered sodium

4 hypochlorite.

5 MR. JORDAN: Okay, thanks.

6 Ms. Hansen?

7 MS. HANSEN: Thank you.

8 What I would say in response to

9 that is that, as our presentation

10 demonstrated, the hypo is not the active in

11 that product. Nalco spent some time

12 explaining the technologies that are

13 implemented.

14 The technologies that the three

15 companies employ in the field are all very

16 similar. There is a physical apparatus. 

17 There is a chemical reaction. There are

18 employees of each of the three companies that

19 are at the mill.

20 To say that their claim of

21 biocidal control is only over the system begs

22 the question of what the biocidal active is
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 88

1 and how it is being deployed.

2 MR. JORDAN: So you are asserting

3 that, by making claims for the system, they

4 are making claims for all the ingredients in

5 the product, in the system, and those that are

6 regarded -- and I want to make sure I am

7 getting it correctly -- those that exert a

8 pesticidal effect are, in fact, pesticides? 

9 Would that be fair?

10 MS. HANSEN: What Mr. Goldberg

11 just said is that they understand, that Nalco

12 understands, and that the customers understand

13 that hypo is the active, and they look at the

14 hypo label, and that is sufficient under FIFRA

15 to provide for regulatory control and safety

16 for this process.

17 And what we are saying is that is

18 not the active, hypo. To understand what is

19 actually happening, you have to look at what

20 happens with that chemical reaction and what

21 is delivered to the water system.

22 MR. JORDAN: Thank you.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 89

1 MR. ROSS: And you would make the

2 same characterization about your product?

3 MS. HANSEN: Absolutely. And

4 Buckman's.

5 MR. JORDAN: Mr. Boucher, do you

6 have anything to add?

7 MR. BOUCHER: Yes. Our position

8 is that, despite Nalco's extensive due

9 diligence on this subject, that, actually,

10 sodium bromide has been registered for over a

11 decade for use with bleach to disinfect water

12 in pulp and paper mills. So there is

13 absolutely nothing new about the registration

14 of ammonia in this case. This actually

15 continues in a precedent that you established

16 a long time ago.

17 Two, bleach isn't registered for

18 use with ammonia in pulp and paper mills. So

19 there is no registered product for this use. 

20 Therefore, even if the source of the biocide

21 were the bleach, the product is being used

22 inconsistent with its labeling in pulp and
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 90

1 paper mills to disinfect water.

2 Third of all, we have, hopefully,

3 produced --

4 MR. JORDAN: I was asking about

5 claims. Can you get at that, please?

6 MR. BOUCHER: Yes. Well, the

7 claims are that the ammonia should be used in

8 connection, under 152, Subsection (a)(1), that

9 the substance, ammonia, in combination with

10 bleach, can be used as a pesticide in pulp and

11 paper mills to reduce bacterial slime.

12 MR. JORDAN: So there are specific

13 claims that you see being made for Nalco's

14 product?

15 MR. BOUCHER: It is all in the

16 record. I mean I can't, you know --

17 MR. JORDAN: Okay, thanks.

18 DR. MORROW: I have heard the term

19 adjuvant used quite extensively during the

20 presentations. I would like to get a working

21 definition of the term in the context of a

22 chemical reaction because I was always under
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 91

1 the impression that an adjuvant is not used in

2 a chemical reaction, typically not used in a

3 chemical reaction, to form a new product or a

4 new chemical.

5 DR. BROWN: This is Elizabeth

6 Brown.

7 There are varying definitions of

8 what adjuvants are and are not. An adjuvant

9 is something that is added, and that is the

10 extent of it. It does not further describe

11 what the adjuvant does.

12 There are several different

13 versions of adjuvants, and you can look

14 particularly to the ag industry for this. 

15 There are some ASTM methods or ASTM

16 definitions which are not fully acceptable to

17 the full ag industry.

18 CPDA has some. They are highly

19 variable. It is not consistent.

20 But there are adjuvants which

21 react. There are adjuvants which are termed

22 stabilizers. There are adjuvants which are
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 92

1 also termed water conditioners. There are

2 adjuvants that are called safeners. There is

3 a wide variety of them, but the term adjuvant

4 is something simply that is added.

5 MS. HANSEN: This is Karen Hansen

6 on behalf of Ashland.

7 That is simply inaccurate. EPA

8 has a definition of adjuvant. It is in 40 CFR

9 Section 153.125(a)(2). It defines an adjuvant

10 as a compound which functions simply to

11 enhance or prolong the activity of an active

12 ingredient by physical action, not by chemical

13 reaction.

14 MR. ROSS: I would like to ask a

15 question based on, albeit I know this is

16 contested material, but I would like you to

17 turn to page 18 of the Buckman presentation,

18 please.

19 Now, just to make sure that we

20 have our terminology correct here, when you

21 add ammonia to hypochlorine or whatever

22 chlorine you have there, you end up with
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 93

1 chloramine? Is that correct?

2 I am asking Nalco these questions.

3 MS. RICE: Laura for Nalco.

4 And, yes, that is correct. They

5 are forming different types of chloramines.

6 MR. ROSS: Okay. So, basically,

7 under the heading that says, Ammonia Makes

8 Chloramines, you are talking about comparative

9 features of chloramines here? Is that

10 correct?

11 MS. RICE: That is correct, based

12 on the different hydrolysis rates.

13 MR. ROSS: Okay. And, then, there

14 are at least two areas where -- well, there's

15 moderate quick kill and there's enhanced quick

16 kill and then there's enhanced control of

17 filamentous bacteria. All those, to me, seem

18 to be bacterial or microorganism control

19 claims, is that correct?

20 MS. RICE: In the context of the

21 presentation, the purpose of this slide was to

22 highlight the differences in stabilization
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 94

1 rates and how the effect is impacted by the

2 type of stabilizer, and whether you are using 

3 an inorganic or an organic stabilizer.

4 So it was to highlight that the

5 different programs persist differently in the

6 process to provide a different effect. So, in

7 the context of the presentation, the slide was

8 used to highlight those subtle differences.

9 MR. ROSS: Okay. So, are you

10 saying that you equate the term chloramine,

11 which appears to be a separate substance, with

12 stabilized chlorine?

13 MS. RICE: Chloramine is the

14 stabilized intermediate.

15 MR. ROSS: Stabilized

16 intermediate? Maybe you need to refresh my

17 memory as to -- you start with chlorine. You

18 add ammonia. You get to either chloramine or

19 stabilized chlorine. And then, what do you

20 end up with?

21 MS. RICE: The chloramine is a way

22 to deliver the chlorine biocide into the
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 95

1 process. And because of the differences, the

2 very subtle differences in the persistence of

3 these organic versus inorganic chlorinated

4 forms, it has an impact on the overall

5 performance of the chlorine biocide.

6 MR. ROSS: Okay. I would invite

7 either Buckman or Ashland to jump in here in

8 a technical way, please.

9 MS. TAUB: Can I just clarify one

10 thing on this slide we were looking at?

11 MR. ROSS: Could you identify

12 yourself?

13 MS. TAUB: Sure. Cynthia Taub,

14 Steptoe & Johnson.

15 MR. ROSS: Yes.

16 MS. TAUB: I just point out that

17 this Ammonia Makes Chloramine that is there is

18 what Buckman added. This is not part of

19 Nalco's material, that heading up there that

20 you pointed to.

21 MR. ROSS: Ammonia Makes

22 Chloramine?
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 96

1 MS. TAUB: That's theirs. They

2 added that.

3 MR. ROSS: Okay, but we have

4 also --

5 MS. TAUB: No, no, I just wanted

6 to make sure you understood that.

7 MR. ROSS: Right, but the

8 equivalencies are still there. Okay.

9 Why don't you all sort of -- yes,

10 and then we will move on after a minute or

11 less.

12 DR. BRADY: Okay. This is Jim

13 Brady from Ashland.

14 If you go back to the literature

15 examples I gave, when you form the

16 monochloramine, you change the redox

17 potential. That is why it persists. You are

18 in a chlorine demand setting, so you,

19 basically, tune down the reactivity of that

20 system by making the new chemical entity.

21 That is why you see those

22 differing characteristics of enhanced
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 97

1 persistence, and so on, which are

2 characteristics we like to design in. But you

3 make a new chemical entity.

4 MR. ROSS: A new chemical.

5 What about urea?

6 DR. BRADY: And that is also true

7 of ureas and then chlorourea.

8 DR. BROOKMAN: And it doesn't make

9 chloramines.

10 DR. BRADY: And yes, chemically,

11 that is not a chloramine.

12 MR. RAYMOND: What is it?

13 DR. BRADY: It is a chlorourea.

14 MR. RAYMOND: Okay.

15 MR. BRADY: A chlorobromide.

16 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: I'm

17 sorry. Can we just go back, so you can

18 identify who you are, please?

19 MR. RAYMOND: I'm sorry. Paul

20 Raymond with Ashland Hercules.

21 I just wanted to clarify because

22 there's really two systems represented on the
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 98

1 slide you are asking about. One is the one

2 with the ammonia source, which is the 6620,

3 and the other is the 6615, which is actually

4 urea.

5 MR. ROSS: That is very helpful.

6 MR. RAYMOND: So let's make sure

7 we understand we are actually dealing with two

8 different unique compounds.

9 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Thank

10 you.

11 DR. BROOKMAN: This is Dave

12 Brookman, speaking for Buckman.

13 When ammonia reacts with

14 hypochlorous acid, it makes chloramine. There

15 is just no question of that. There's a

16 chemical reaction that occurs.

17 When the chloramine reacts as a

18 biocide, it is not clear at all what happens. 

19 It is possible that the chlorine material, the

20 active chlorine reacts directly. But if that

21 is the case, it is pretty unlikely that the

22 carrier, the material that they are calling
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 99

1 the adjuvant, is released as such. So that is

2 a point.

3 MR. JORDAN: Let me jump in here. 

4 I want to get, in the time that we have

5 allotted here on the agenda, to the next

6 question, which has to do with the potential

7 impacts on human health and environmental

8 risks.

9 I am interested in having folks

10 respond to what documentation indicates that

11 the use of the Nalco products poses any

12 different human health or environmental risk

13 compared to the products that are already

14 being marketed by Buckman and Ashland.

15 So, Ms. Hansen?

16 MS. HANSEN: Thank you. This is

17 Karen Hansen, on behalf of Ashland. I am

18 going to ask Paul Raymond to address that on

19 behalf of Ashland.

20 That is one of the primary reasons

21 that we initially engaged with the agency on

22 this, and we are quite concerned about the
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 100

1 safety because our employees work in the same

2 mills where Nalco's products are deployed.

3 So, Paul, maybe you could describe

4 some of the actions that Ashland took in

5 response to that.

6 MR. RAYMOND: Sure, sure. Thank

7 you.

8 The main reason I'm here,

9 actually, of course, there's financial issues

10 involved, but the main reason I am here is for

11 product stewardship and for the safety aspects

12 of this.

13 As it emerged that these products

14 were on the market, you were, of course, very

15 familiar with how biocides are sold and

16 registered in the marketplace. We

17 investigated how Nalco was commercializing

18 these products. Actually, with the 6620, we

19 were very surprised to find that they had not

20 registered it, and we couldn't find any limits

21 of how they could apply it, what are the feed

22 rates, what are the feed ratios, et cetera. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 101

1 So that immediately caused us some concern.

2 Then, the 6615 became available on

3 the market, and we found that, to our

4 discovery, it was even a unique, completely

5 unique chemistry in the new compound, which,

6 obviously, raised even graver concerns.

7 As precautions, we implemented,

8 asked our employees to remove themselves from

9 where these chemicals were being applied and

10 tried to limit the contact with the process

11 water because it is simply unknown what the

12 possible hazards might be to these compounds.

13 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: How

14 were they being applied?

15 MR. RAYMOND: I'm sorry?

16 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: I'm

17 sorry. Joan Harrigan-Farrelly.

18 How were the products being

19 applied?

20 MR. RAYMOND: Well, they are all

21 being applied in exactly the same way. So

22 they are formulated in a more concentrated
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 102

1 solution that is, then, added to process water

2 in paper mills, and to kill microbiological

3 species.

4 MR. JORDAN: It sounds as though

5 you are voicing questions, but do you have any

6 incidents that are attributable where people

7 have been hurt or where there have been fish

8 kills or any other examples like that? Or do

9 you have any risk assessments that you would

10 point to that would indicate different risks?

11 MR. RAYMOND: Again, in a broad

12 sense, we are really doing it from a

13 precautionary perspective.

14 MR. JORDAN: Okay.

15 MR. RAYMOND: But I could ask

16 Linda or Jim for some specific examples.

17 DR. BRADY: Yes, this is Jim Brady

18 again from Ashland. Let me just jump in.

19 First of all, there is virtually

20 no toxicological data for chlorourea that we

21 were able to find.

22 The other item, getting more to
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 103

1 the safety issue, we did have a report from

2 some of our people in an analytical lab that

3 they work alongside Nalco people where one of

4 their workers was pulling a sample, brought it

5 into the lab, put it on the bench, asked our

6 worker, "Do you smell that?"

7 And he didn't smell anything, but

8 he looked around, and the container that the

9 Nalco worker had just brought in was, the word

10 he used was "smoking". Really, it was

11 something was coming off. No one really knows

12 what it was.

13 MR. JORDAN: Okay. Any thoughts

14 from Nalco on the question of whether there

15 are different risks?

16 MR. GOLDBERG: The short answer is

17 no. In the first place, the question that you

18 ask has to do with the use of ammonia. 

19 Ammonia and urea both are widely-used,

20 separately-added adjuvants.

21 Again, you know, the plant that

22 supplies drinking water to this building uses
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 104

1 ammonia to push chloramines through the

2 system, and it uses a registered source of

3 chlorine, whether it is chlorine gas or sodium

4 hypochlorite. Those risks are exactly the

5 same as the risks that all three companies'

6 chemistries pose. There are no differences.

7 We can't be expected to respond to

8 sort of ad hominem sort of claims about

9 smoking containers here.

10 MR. JORDAN: And I don't expect

11 you to do that.

12 Mr. Boucher?

13 MR. BOUCHER: I would add

14 something that isn't ad hominem. It is a

15 concern that you have raised.

16 If you look in Appendix D of our

17 September 2008 petition, we have a sales

18 documentation for a trial that was conducted

19 by Nalco at one of its customer sites. They

20 recommend use in a machine silo at a rate of

21 12 parts per million as total chlorine and in

22 a shower water chest at 10 parts per million
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 105

1 as total chlorine.

2 And if you look in Exhibit E of

3 our petition, the registration of Busan 1215

4 that you approved, you have directions for use

5 that say maximum of 5 parts per million

6 measured as total chlorine in the water. So

7 that is twice the rate you found was

8 appropriate for the product that you looked at

9 and that you registered.

10 MR. JORDAN: Okay. Thanks.

11 Ms. Hansen, briefly.

12 MS. HANSEN: Just briefly, the

13 point, I think, that is being made here is

14 that, in the absence of registration, which

15 means review by you all, these risks are

16 uncertain, and you are uniquely in the

17 position to enforce FIFRA's requirement to

18 protect public safety. That is what we are

19 asking you to do.

20 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Okay. 

21 Let's try to move on.

22 MR. JORDAN: Okay. The last line
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 106

1 of questioning has to do with the broader

2 precedential significance of deciding either

3 that these ammonia products need registration

4 or do not registration.

5 I heard Mr. Goldberg argue that

6 this is just the tip of the iceberg, so to

7 speak. I would be interested, Mr. Boucher, if

8 you have any thoughts or, Ms. Hansen, on that

9 subject.

10 MR. BOUCHER: Sure. Well, first

11 of all, I would like point everyone to Denny

12 Edwards' November 18, 2009 letter, where it

13 says the agency is not reevaluating its

14 position with regard to adjuvant stabilizers,

15 et cetera. The agency is addressing solely

16 issues connected with the sale, distribution,

17 and use of ammonia and potentially urea

18 products in the pulp and paper/board industry.

19 So, I understood that the issue

20 that was being considered here, or being

21 decided here, was fairly limited; it had

22 nothing to do with drinking water.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 107

1 Also, in terms of precedence, I

2 have already pointed out sodium bromide has

3 been registered for use with bleach to

4 disinfect water for at least a decade, and I

5 believe longer.

6 So registering ammonia was no kind

7 of precedent. Registering urea is no kind of

8 precedent.

9 You are up to at least three

10 technology systems now where you are

11 registering and you are doing this. I would

12 say the precedent has been established, and

13 there's more of a disruption to reverse that

14 trend at this point.

15 The whole industry is here in the

16 room. This cascade of products that are going

17 to have be registered in the ag business, it

18 is just not going to happen. The whole

19 industry is here.

20 And you are being asked to make a

21 decision about how to regulate this kind of

22 technology in this limited industry. You've
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 108

1 got all the players in the room.

2 MR. JORDAN: Thank you.

3 So you see no inconsistencies,

4 then, between what EPA has done with regard to

5 the technologies that identified where we have

6 required registration and the technologies,

7 the categories of adjuvants that Mr. Goldberg

8 has described? You see no inconsistency

9 between those two approaches?

10 MR. BOUCHER: Well, the problem

11 with calling ammonia an adjuvant is that it

12 ends all argumentation.

13 MR. JORDAN: I understand that.

14 MR. BOUCHER: So I can't respond

15 to that.

16 MR. JORDAN: But how would you

17 distinguish the situations where EPA has

18 required registration and the ones, the

19 product lines where EPA has not, what

20 distinction?

21 MR. BOUCHER: I am not familiar

22 enough with the record to respond to that.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 109

1 MR. JORDAN: Ms. Hansen?

2 MS. HANSEN: I would point out in

3 our materials -- and I didn't go into this in

4 my discussion because of the limited time --

5 but there are a number of other industrial

6 biocides that are created onsite with

7 precursor chemicals being reacted, including

8 some of Nalco's own registration. So we don't

9 think this is something new that EPA did with

10 the Ameribrom registration, starting in 2003. 

11 That registration itself followed others that

12 EPA had regulated in the very same way.

13 I also think, and we have said

14 this in our comments, I think the notion that

15 this decision on Nalco's two specific products

16 is going to wreak havoc in the drinking water

17 industry or in the agricultural industry is

18 nonsense.

19 The notion that ammonia added in a

20 chemical reaction in an industrial plant is

21 the same as ammonium sulfate that may be used

22 in a completely different way in an
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 110

1 agricultural product, and might well in that

2 context qualify as an adjuvant, it is just

3 totally irrelevant to what we are talking

4 about here. And I think it is designed as a

5 device to try to distract the agency from the

6 issue at hand.

7 MR. GOLDBERG: May I?

8 MR. JORDAN: Mr. Goldberg,

9 briefly, and then, my colleague, Mr. Ross, has

10 a question.

11 MR. GOLDBERG: Thank you. Just a

12 couple of points.

13 With respect to these precursor

14 systems, Mr. Boucher mentioned sodium bromide. 

15 This goes back to the point that we made

16 earlier. Each of those systems, the piece

17 that contributes the active moiety is

18 registered, including Ashland's system. But

19 ammonia and urea, they simply don't contribute

20 an active moiety. Therefore, they shouldn't

21 be registered.

22 The way to approach that, if you
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 111

1 wanted to register it as a precursor and

2 consider monochloramine, which never has been

3 listed as an active ingredient, as an active,

4 would be to register the chlorine piece. That

5 is the first part.

6 The second thing is simply that,

7 if one looks at the role that ammonium sulfate

8 plays in glyphosate, you know, and I am very

9 disappointed, I must say, that no one from RD

10 is here, and I certainly hope you will discuss

11 this with your colleagues on the ag side.

12 But there are chemical reactions. 

13 This stabilization is the result of the

14 interaction. As Elizabeth Brown pointed out,

15 it forms the amine salt of glyphosate that is

16 more stable.

17 So the notion that there's any way

18 to kind of put a ring around this and say,

19 well, it's only for pulp and paper, I just

20 think is not sustainable. I really believe

21 strongly that that's the reason that input

22 from stakeholders, whether they are companies,
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 112

1 whether they are users, whether they are

2 environmental groups, needs to be sought.

3 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: So a

4 quick question.

5 Joan Harrigan-Farrelly.

6 But is it not to the pulp and

7 paper industry that the product is currently

8 being marketed solely, your product?

9 MR. GOLDBERG: The OxiPRO system

10 is marketed to the pulp and paper industry

11 only. as I understand it. Is that correct? 

12 Yes.

13 MR. ROSS: Yes, I just have a

14 request. Joan had mentioned that we will be

15 asking you to provide any followup to this

16 meeting within 30 days.

17 As part of that followup, and I

18 think you could provide this to us sooner,

19 actually, because I am only asking for

20 existing materials, I think within, say, five

21 days of this meeting, we would appreciate

22 receiving from each of the parties the
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 113

1 marketing materials for all the products that

2 they believe are implicated in their product

3 lines in this matter. And I am talking about

4 ammonia and urea, and I am talking about

5 registered and unregistered.

6 So we would like copies of the

7 labels for each of those products that are

8 implicated, whether they are registered or

9 not, and we would like copies of the current

10 marketing materials for each of those

11 products. And we would like that within five

12 days because we want what exists now. And I

13 want to be real clear about that.

14 MR. GOLDBERG: And that includes

15 the registered and unregistered components of

16 all products?

17 MR. ROSS: That is correct.

18 MR. GOLDBERG: That is the

19 activators of our competitors' products?

20 MR. ROSS: That is correct. That

21 is correct. And again, we want existing

22 materials. We don't want any alterations to
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 114

1 any materials. We want what exists right now.

2 MR. PASSANTINO: Just a checking

3 question, if you will allow me.

4 Stuart Passantino with Nalco.

5 MR. ROSS: Sure.

6 MR. PASSANTINO: Each individual

7 company will submit their own marketing

8 information, correct?

9 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: 

10 Correct.

11 MR. ROSS: That is correct. That

12 is correct.

13 MR. PASSANTINO: Not each others'?

14 MR. ROSS: Right, right. Yes.

15 (Laughter.)

16 Well, who knows? We can't stop

17 you from doing that.

18 And, you know, obviously, if there

19 are any players out there that you are aware

20 of who have similar products that may be

21 crossing some line, as you perceive it, we

22 would be interested in that material as well. 
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 115

1 Okay?

2 And again, within five days,

3 please submit that to Dennis Edwards. Is that

4 right, Dennis? Okay.

5 And I'm Phil Ross, by the way.

6 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Thank

7 you. Thank you, Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Mr.

8 Ross. Thank you, Dr. Morrow.

9 I think that concludes the

10 questions that we have for EPA, that EPA had

11 for you. So we will move forward with

12 questions that you may have for each other.

13 So I think we can kick this off,

14 also, if we wish, in an alphabetical manner,

15 and start with Ashland.

16 MS. HANSEN: Thank you. We are

17 happy to go first.

18 This is Karen Hanson again, on

19 behalf of Ashland.

20 We don't really have any questions

21 for the other parties. We would like to take

22 our five minutes to make a couple of points
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 116

1 that I think need to be made here.

2 The first is very simple, which is

3 that, if you take out of Nalco's presentation

4 materials today the references to urea as an

5 adjuvant, which I believe we have already

6 commented on, they have said nothing here

7 today to you to explain the product chemistry

8 of urea when reacted with hypo.

9 They have done nothing to respond 

10 on the merits to the extensive information

11 that is in the record already about the

12 unregistered urea product. It suggests that

13 there is something that they don't want you to

14 know about that product.

15 So, our understanding from the

16 agency is that they have not talked to you

17 about that product. I appreciate your request

18 that they submit information to you about that

19 product. I think that will lend to your

20 understanding, and I am glad you are going to

21 do that.

22 The other thing that we wanted to
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 117

1 put on the record here has to do with the

2 safety issues that you were inquiring about

3 and, again, this idea that Nalco is promoting

4 that the registration of hypo is sufficient to

5 address FIFRA registration of these products.

6 I would like to turn it over to

7 Linda to just share with you very briefly a

8 comparison of two of the labels that will just

9 highlight for you the problem with relying on

10 hypo.

11 Linda?

12 MS. CHANEY: Okay, thank you.

13 This is Linda Chaney again.

14 What I would like to do is go

15 ahead and pass around to the group copies of

16 three labels, the first being Nalco's own

17 registered sodium hypochlorite that is

18 approved for use in the pulp and paper

19 industry. I am going to read from the

20 physical and chemical hazard section on this

21 particular label, so that you have some

22 insight as to what their own guidance is.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 118

1 Secondly, I would like to read

2 from our Spectrum XD3899. That is the

3 registered ammonium bromide product, and

4 specifically highlight the dosage limits that

5 are dictated, of course, by the EPA, and then

6 compare that with Nalco's unregistered

7 ammonium sulfate product. So that you get a

8 feel for the differences in the control that

9 comes with the registration process, and

10 potential safety hazards that could follow.

11 So, to begin, the Nalcon 60735, in

12 the physical and chemical hazard section has

13 described the following. It is described as

14 a strong oxidizing agent. "Mix only with

15 water according to label directions." Then,

16 further, it states that, "Mixing this product

17 with gross filth or with ammonia, acids,

18 detergents, or other chemicals will release

19 hazardous gases irritating to the eyes, lungs,

20 and mucous membranes." So, clearly, there is

21 the potential for a hazardous situation to be

22 created when ammonia is combined with hypo.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 119

1 Next, under the directions for use

2 section for our XD3899 label, it states that

3 Spectrum XD3899 is to be used only in

4 conjunction with, No. 1, an oxidant such as

5 sodium hypochlorite, typically 12.5 percent,

6 to produce Spectrum XD3899 biocide and, two,

7 the Spectrum XD3899 feed delivery system. 

8 Okay? So, it specifically calls out that you

9 have to use specific equipment and that only

10 approved personnel must manage that particular

11 system.

12 It also, furthermore, states that

13 there are dosage limits of .3 to 10 parts per

14 million concentration. That is dictated, of

15 course, by EPA.

16 The directions for use on the

17 Nalcon product state that 60620, as a

18 stabilizer, can be mixed with a source of

19 active chlorine prior to paper machine waters. 

20 The stabilizer is pre-blended with active

21 chlorine source. The mixture should, then, be

22 added to process water streams immediately
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 120

1 prior to the point of sufficient mixing. 

2 Optimal stabilization, the stabilizer, to

3 activate chlorine at a molar ratio between 1

4 and 1 and 2 to 1.

5 There's no specific directions on

6 how much they can use, where they can use it,

7 the specific feed equipment that is required

8 to ensure that the correct --

9 MR. ROSS: Thank you.

10 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Okay,

11 Buckman.

12 MR. BOUCHER: Thanks. I just have

13 a couple of questions.

14 We have heard today from Nalco

15 that the use of ammonia with EPA-registered

16 sodium hypochlorite produces chloramines and

17 that the pesticide in the process is EPA18 registered sodium hypochlorite. My question

19 would be, for either Nalco or Ashland, is

20 anybody aware of a registered sodium

21 hypochlorite product that is registered for

22 use with ammonia to produce chloramines in a
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 121

1 pulp and paper mill?

2 MS. HANSEN: Very briefly, this is

3 Karen Hansen for Ashland.

4 We have looked at over 300

5 registered hypo labels, including five of

6 Nalco's, and none of them provide for mixing

7 with ammonia or urea for pulp and paper uses.

8 MR. GOLDBERG: May I?

9 I think the answer to your

10 question is that all sources, all registered

11 sodium hypochlorite that does not expressly in

12 the directions for use prohibit mixing with

13 ammonia allows the use of ammonia. That is

14 the way pesticide labels have been read and

15 interpreted.

16 You can't go enforce against a

17 user, you know, of a registered sodium

18 hypochlorite who is not doing anything

19 inconsistent with the label. So, frankly, our

20 answer is that our products are suitable for

21 that use.

22 Now, yes, there is some
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 122

1 responsibility on the users to get the safety

2 record. That is why Nalco has its own

3 personnel doing this.

4 That is why, with the exception

5 of, again, anecdotal issues, there aren't

6 incidents, and there haven't been incidents

7 with respect to the use of registered chlorine

8 and unregistered ammonia in drinking water

9 plants across the country. There have been,

10 interestingly, incidents with respect to

11 registered sodium chlorate, which is a

12 precursor to chlorine dioxide. Because those

13 generators are, in fact, fairly unstable.

14 The fact of registration and the

15 fact that there are label directions hasn't

16 prevented those. So I think there's no

17 question from a label perspective the current

18 bleach labels allow the use that is being made

19 of the registered material.

20 MR. BOUCHER: Okay. Also, just

21 returning to Nalco's presentation slide 1, 2,

22 3, 4, entitled, "OxiPRO Mixing Strategy", I
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 123

1 invite either Ashland or Nalco, or both, to

2 tell me why this diagram describes a tank mix,

3 as that term is understood in the agricultural

4 chemical industry.

5 I'm sorry, it is the fourth one in

6 the Nalco presentation.

7 MR. GOLDBERG: For Nalco, we view

8 that as the same as a tank mix because what

9 you are doing is mixing a pesticide with other

10 non-pesticidal materials to meet the need of

11 the consumer. In this case, that is the paper

12 mill.

13 What we do is blend those

14 ingredients, just as a farmer goes to the

15 co-op and says, "I want some herbicide and I

16 want some fertilizer to get the weeds growing

17 strong, to knock them down better with a

18 herbicide, and I need a sticking agent or a pH

19 adjuster or, indeed, a UV inhibitor." That is

20 exactly the same.

21 MR. BOUCHER: Can you point out

22 where the tank is here?
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 124

1 MR. GOLDBERG: The mix, as you can

2 see -- is that a sort of rhetorical question?

3 MR. BOUCHER: No, it is a factual

4 question. Where is the tank?

5 MR. GOLDBERG: There is in-line

6 mixing in the application equipment.

7 MR. BOUCHER: I'm done, Phil.

8 MR. ROSS: Thanks.

9 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Thank

10 you.

11 MR. ROSS: Nalco?

12 MS. TAUB: Cynthia Taub, Steptoe &

13 Johnson for Nalco.

14 We just have a couple of

15 questions, one quick clarification I wanted to

16 ask -- it comes from Buckman -- about your

17 registered ammonia products.

18 I understand from your written

19 submissions that the material in the products

20 is ammonium sulfate, but the label says

21 ammonia. I just wondered why there is that

22 discrepancy.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 125

1 MR. BOUCHER: I'm sorry, are you

2 asking us to give you information, our

3 confidential statement of formula, on the

4 record?

5 MS. TAUB: I'm trying to

6 understand a little bit more about your

7 product.

8 MR. BOUCHER: My understanding --

9 and you guys can answer this -- but my

10 understanding is that the product is a mixture

11 of things.

12 MR. McNEEL: Tom McNeel with

13 Buckman Laboratories.

14 If the product was only ammonium

15 sulfate and water, then it would be true that

16 it should say ammonium sulfate. It does, in

17 fact, contain more than one form of ammonia,

18 and we are recognizing the fact that the

19 active ingredient in the product is ammonia. 

20 So the label states the total amount of

21 ammonia there and not just ammonium sulfate. 

22 Should it have said ammonium sulfate, that
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 126

1 would have been incorrect.

2 MS. TAUB: Another quick question

3 for Buckman.

4 Is the sodium hypochlorite used

5 with Buckman's products registered?

6 MR. COOPER: Certainly, in all

7 cases wherever we sell Busan 1215, we take two

8 approaches with that. The customer is either

9 required to purchase from us our own EPA10 registered sodium hypochlorite bleach or in

11 all communication with the customer it is

12 stipulated that they must purchase a

13 registered sodium hypochlorite bleach from

14 another supplier.

15 MS. TAUB: Thank you.

16 I have that same question for

17 Ashland.

18 MS. CHANEY: Hi. This is Linda

19 Chaney.

20 We have a different understanding 

21 of the implication with use of a registered,

22 let's say ammonium bromide product, with a
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 127

1 registered sodium hypochlorite product because

2 on both labels for both products there will be

3 explicit directions for use.

4 So, our Spectrum XD3899 label

5 explains clearly how that product is to be

6 used in combination with hypo. If you had a

7 situation where there were two products, two

8 registered products, each with its own

9 directions for use, applied together to form

10 an NC2-generated product, which label is

11 binding? That is the conflict that we see

12 with that situation.

13 Our label for 3899 explains

14 clearly, as I said earlier, how the product is

15 to be combined with hypo. And we see a

16 potential conflict if we were to use

17 registered hypo with a registered ammonium

18 bromide.

19 MR. GOLDBERG: So you use

20 unregistered hypo?

21 MS. CHANEY: Yes, we do.

22 MS. HANSEN: The only other thing
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 128

1 I would add to that is that, when -- and you

2 can see this from reviewing the registration

3 jackets for the ammonium bromide product and

4 for Buckman's product, which is, because those

5 registrations included EPA's explicit

6 recognition that those products, those

7 chemicals were reacted to produce chloramines,

8 the whole endpoint of that was a labeling

9 process that took into account the fact that

10 those precursor products are combined with

11 hypo.

12 So, the use of the ammonium

13 bromide and ammonium sulfate in the Buckman

14 and Ameribrom products, the Ameribrom being

15 marketed by Ashland, in combination with hypo,

16 has been fully vetted by the agency as part of

17 those registration processes, and the same is

18 not true for Nalco's products.

19 DR. BROWN: We're done. Thank

20 you.

21 MR. ROSS: Thank you.

22 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Thank
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 129

1 you.

2 Okay. All right. Okay, I think

3 we have come to the point where we have heard

4 from all of the parties. I think it was a

5 very good discussion. I learned a lot. So,

6 hopefully, you all learned a lot from each

7 other as well.

8 We will now open up, so that you

9 can ask us your questions directly, and each

10 company gets five minutes. We will try to be

11 as brief as possible and answer your questions

12 to the best of our knowledge as quickly as

13 possible as well.

14 MR. ROSS: Can I just mention a

15 groundrule or two?

16 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Sure.

17 MR. ROSS: Okay. I believe we

18 said at the beginning of this meeting that

19 this was not a decision meeting. So, we will

20 not entertain any questions regarding where we

21 are headed, what we are thinking, and those

22 kinds of questions, nor will we entertain any
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 130

1 questions regarding our reactions to anything

2 that has been said here today. The same goes

3 for legal theories and things like that.

4 So, with that, with those as

5 groundrules, whatever questions you have for

6 us that fit within those groundrules, ask

7 away.

8 Ashland?

9 MS. HANSEN: How did you like us,

10 though?

11 (Laughter.)

12 This is Karen Hansen, on behalf of

13 Ashland. I won't ask you any of the questions

14 that you don't want to answer today.

15 But you have outlined a process

16 for us to provide additional comments to you

17 within 30 days. One question I think we

18 probably all have is that that supersedes this

19 60-day comment period for the three parties in

20 this room that was originally laid out. In

21 other words, we should comment within 30 days,

22 and then anything else will go on the public
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 131

1 docket?

2 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Yes.

3 MS. HANSEN: Okay.

4 MR. ROSS: Right, and that comment

5 period is going to be subsumed in the public

6 comment period.

7 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Yes.

8 MS. HANSEN: Okay. I appreciate

9 that.

10 MR. ROSS: For efficiency and

11 process.

12 MS. HANSEN: I appreciate that.

13 And we, for all the reasons that

14 we have highlighted today and previously in

15 our communications, we are very interested in

16 a prompt and decisive action by the agency. 

17 Obviously, we would like for you to do the

18 things that we have requested, but there's a

19 great deal of confusion in the marketplace. 

20 The two companies here who have registered

21 their products are at a disadvantage because

22 Nalco is able to sell its products without the
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 132

1 cost and the procedures that Buckman's counsel

2 was describing.

3 So I know you need to take into

4 consideration the things you have heard here,

5 and are going to continue to hear, but you

6 have a lot of information in front of you

7 already. Our question is, when can we expect

8 the agency to make some definitive decisions

9 on the issue of Nalco's two unregistered

10 products?

11 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: 

12 That's one of the questions we weren't going

13 to answer.

14 MS. HANSEN: The question was just

15 when. Do you have any sense of your

16 timeframe?

17 MR. ROSS: We have set out a

18 process. We have asked you to get us some

19 stuff within five days. We have asked you to

20 give us some additional information within 30

21 days.

22 Once we have that material, a
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 133

1 docket will be opened and there will be

2 commenced a public comment period, public

3 review and comment period, which we will

4 specify. Our plan is to issue a Federal

5 Register notice announcing that.

6 During that time period, any

7 additional comments or information that any of

8 the parties want to give us will be properly

9 addressed to the agency through the docket and

10 not any other means.

11 I can't give you a timeframe

12 specifically and won't want to commit to one

13 today. But you have the information that we

14 have at this point.

15 MS. HANSEN: Okay. I appreciate

16 that.

17 One last question, I guess, also,

18 procedural, from us: in the 30 days that you

19 are asking for the parties represented here

20 today to provide comments, is your expectation

21 that the parties will respond to everything

22 that is already on the record?
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 134

1 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: No.

2 MS. HANSEN: Obviously, not what

3 is going to come in in the public docket

4 comment period, but to the things that have

5 already been exchanged between the parties?

6 MR. ROSS: Our expectation is one

7 thing; what you all do is another probably. 

8 But we would like you to respond to anything

9 that you believe is hanging up in the air as

10 a result of today's meeting. We have been

11 papered already on this matter.

12 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Let

13 me clarify. When we initially talked about

14 what we expected just in terms of submissions,

15 we wanted, if something needed to be clarified

16 or if there was a statement made and you had

17 supporting documentation, and you wanted to

18 submit that, or if you had other information

19 that you thought would shed light, but not to

20 respond to every -- we don't want a rebuttal

21 on everything, at least I don't, on

22 everything.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 135

1 So it is just additional,

2 supplemental clarification is what we are

3 looking for.

4 MR. ROSS: We are not asking for

5 orders of magnitude of more paper.

6 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: No.

7 MS. HANSEN: I understand that.

8 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Thank

9 you.

10 MS. HANSEN: I think you said we

11 have one minute left. I want to ask Paul --

12 MR. ROSS: You've got 20 seconds.

13 MS. HANSEN: -- if there is

14 anything else that you would like to ask the

15 agency in 15 seconds or less.

16 MR. RAYMOND: I think I'm fine.

17 MS. HANSEN: Okay. Thank you.

18 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Thank

19 you.

20 Buckman?

21 MS. EDENS: This is Geri Edens on

22 behalf of Buckman.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 136

1 Just one point of clarification. 

2 Are you indicating a 30-day public comment

3 period?

4 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: We

5 have not yet decided if it will be 30 or 60

6 days. We are betwixt and between on that. 

7 But, yes, we haven't yet decided.

8 MR. ROSS: Is that it?

9 MS. EDENS: That's it.

10 MR. ROSS: Okay.

11 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: 

12 Nalco?

13 MR. ROSS: And Nalco?

14 MS. TAUB: Cynthia Taub, Steptoe &

15 Johnson.

16 I have just a couple of questions.

17 With regard to Ashland's

18 submission, there was significant material

19 that was redacted. So, Nalco has not actually

20 seen the bulk of their arguments, even though

21 it was ostensibly about Nalco's product. I

22 wondered if the agency has made a decision
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 137

1 about how they are going to handle that. We

2 had asked that that material be excluded from

3 the record unless Nalco was given access to

4 it.

5 MR. ROSS: We haven't decided that

6 yet. We will examine that issue. It might be

7 helpful if Ashland were to give us some

8 indication of what remains within their claim,

9 given what was presented today. There may be

10 an intersection of some of that information.

11 I am not asking you to specify it. 

12 Maybe you want to clarify that within the 30-

13 day period.

14 MS. TAUB: Okay. But just as a

15 matter of fairness --

16 MR. ROSS: I understand your

17 question, and I expected it to be asked today.

18 MS. TAUB: Okay. Great. Thank

19 you.

20 MR. ROSS: Did you have any other

21 questions?

22 MS. TAUB: I do.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 138

1 MR. ROSS: Okay.

2 MS. TAUB: In terms of the public

3 docket, I just want to confirm that the

4 material that Buckman has submitted that is

5 Nalco's CBI will not go into the public

6 docket.

7 MR. ROSS: That is also an issue

8 that we are going to consider.

9 MS. TAUB: Okay. I hope that is a

10 pretty easy issue for you. I mean if it's

11 CBI, it should --

12 MR. ROSS: We will consider it,

13 but we will also consider the need for

14 substantiation and clearance as well.

15 MS. TAUB: Okay. We would be

16 happy to substantiate it.

17 MR. ROSS: All of that is on the

18 table.

19 MS. TAUB: Okay.

20 MR. BOUCHER: Phil, are you

21 suggesting that you are going to make a

22 decision and you would, therefore, want
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 139

1 legal --

2 MR. ROSS: Why don't we wait until

3 they're finished?

4 MR. BOUCHER: Okay. Sorry.

5 MR. ROSS: Yes. I think their

6 time is still running.

7 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Yes.

8 MR. ROSS: Does Nalco have any

9 other questions? You have four minutes, three

10 minutes.

11 MS. TAUB: Thank you.

12 MR. GOLDBERG: Actually, one other

13 question. It is a process question.

14 MR. ROSS: Sure.

15 MR. GOLDBERG: Have you or will

16 you consult with the Office of Drinking Water

17 and the Registration Division within OPP

18 regarding this decision?

19 MR. ROSS: We intend to do the

20 consultation that we deem necessary, and we

21 note your suggestions, and they're not novel

22 suggestions.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 140

1 And the answer is yes.

2 (Laughter.)

3 Yes. Yes, we will and, yes, we

4 have.

5 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Yes,

6 we have and, yes, we will.

7 (Laughter.)

8 MR. ROSS: Okay? To the extent,

9 yes.

10 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: I'm

11 not going to let two lawyers talk to each

12 other.

13 (Laughter.)

14 Any other questions from Nalco?

15 MR. GOLDBERG: No.

16 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Okay.

17 MR. ROSS: Is this a clarifying

18 question from Buckman?

19 MR. BOUCHER: No, I know what I am

20 going to do.

21 MR. ROSS: Pardon me?

22 MR. BOUCHER: I'll sit down.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 141

1 MR. ROSS: No questions?

2 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Okay. 

3 Well, any other questions from EPA? Melba?

4 DR. MORROW: No. I had one, but I

5 will hold it.

6 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Are

7 you sure? It's burning? Speak now. They're

8 all here.

9 DR. MORROW: Speak now? Okay.

10 This one goes back to a question

11 that I probably should have asked earlier,

12 when we had time, but we ran out.

13 If I'm hearing -- and it is back

14 to the adjuvant issue -- that the adjuvant is

15 just added, and that the chloramine is equal

16 to chlorine -- that's what I'm hearing from

17 you guys, right? Nalco?

18 MR. GOLDBERG: Well, yes.

19 DR. MORROW: The chloramine is

20 equal to chlorine, more or less? Then, urea,

21 if it has the same function in the formation

22 of chlorourea, then, basically, you are saying
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 142

1 that all three of these things are essentially

2 the same?

3 MR. GOLDBERG: Laura, perhaps you

4 can respond to that?

5 MS. RICE: This is Laura Rice.

6 So what we are saying is that,

7 essentially, there are different stabilizers

8 that we are classifying as adjuvants that

9 react with the chlorine, and it is the

10 chlorine that is providing the antimicrobial

11 effect in the process. That chlorine can be

12 combined with the different adjuvants, aka

13 stabilizers, to provide varying oxidizing

14 power, which impacts the persistence of that

15 chlorine biocide in the process.

16 DR. MORROW: I just needed

17 clarification that the adjuvants were not

18 doing anything.

19 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Did

20 someone else have a --

21 MS. HANSEN: Well, this is Karen

22 Hansen.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 143

1 DR. MORROW: Does someone else

2 want to clarify?

3 MS. HANSEN: Yes, I only want to

4 respond because you were looking at Ashland.

5 DR. MORROW: No, I wasn't looking

6 at you.

7 MS. HANSEN: Oh, okay.

8 DR. MORROW: I'm sorry.

9 MS. HANSEN: That's not our

10 position, just for the record.

11 DR. MORROW: Yes.

12 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: 

13 Melba, were you --

14 DR. MORROW: I'm done.

15 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Dr.

16 Morrow, are you okay?

17 DR. MORROW: Yes. I'm done.

18 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Okay. 

19 Well, I think that brings us to the conclusion

20 of today's summit, I'll call it.

21 (Laughter.)

22 I know this has been a long and
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 144

1 frustrating experience for all of you. I came

2 into it in the middle or towards the end; I am

3 not sure which part. I am thinking the end. 

4 Well, I know it is the end. That is for sure.

5 (Laughter.)

6 We will do our very best to work

7 as expeditiously on this as possible. I know

8 it has been, as I said, a long and tedious

9 process.

10 So, what will follow next, once

11 again, to sum up, is within five days we would

12 like to see marketing publications, whatever

13 it is you have, whether it is your websites or

14 brochures or anything.

15 MR. ROSS: Calendar days.

16 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Five

17 calendar days.

18 MR. ROSS: Calendar days.

19 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Okay,

20 five calendar days.

21 And within 30 days, if you have --

22 you don't have to -- but if you have
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 145

1 additional information you wish to submit, you

2 have 30 days -- is that calendar days?

3 MR. ROSS: Yes.

4 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: You

5 have 30 calendar days to submit that

6 information to us.

7 Once we get that information, we

8 will announce by Federal Register that we are

9 opening up the docket, and we will, then,

10 place within the docket all the information

11 that we received from you, going back now --

12 I won't say how long -- for a while. To me,

13 it seems a lifetime, and I only just started

14 this process, but it seems forever.

15 So we will submit all that

16 information, of course, without the CBI that

17 we spoke about in several correspondences

18 before.

19 MR. ROSS: After we process

20 through the CBI.

21 DIRECTOR HARRIGAN-FARRELLY: Yes,

22 and we will reprocess through the CBI because
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 146

1 we thought we had already done that. So we

2 will process that again.

3 What will also be submitted in the

4 docket is the presentations that were made

5 today, a summary of -- not a summary -- the

6 minutes of the meeting that was held today. 

7 You will also all receive a copy of the

8 transcript of the meeting today.

9 And after the public comment, and

10 I am not sure, as I said, whether we are going

11 to do a 30- or 60-day public comment for that

12 process, we will, then, close that process and

13 begin to finalize our decisionmaking at that

14 time.

15 I think that summarizes where we

16 are.

17 I thank you all. I know it was

18 difficult trying to get this meeting set up

19 and established. I thank you all for being

20 able to make it here.

21 I thank you for being courteous

22 and kind to each other.
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 147

1 And I know you all, like us, are

2 looking forward to a speedy decision on this.

3 Thank you.

4 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

5 matter went off the record at 3:47 p.m.)

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 148

A

able 43:21 52:15

78:4 102:21

131:22 146:20

above-entitled

81:13 147:4

absence 105:14

absolutely 58:4

74:17 89:3,13

accept 41:12 78:18

acceptable 76:1

91:16

accepts 77:21

access 137:3

accomplished 61:8

account 128:9

accountability 12:3

acid 22:8,12,16

23:3,6,8,19 25:6

25:15,17 26:14,20

27:14 28:21 29:4

32:7 41:14 47:12

48:21 49:7 50:14

50:15,18,20 72:2

98:14

acids 118:17

acknowledged 17:8

32:15,18 67:13

acting 38:12

action 15:8,13 29:8

29:9 34:12 51:21

92:12 131:16

actions 51:19 100:4

activate 120:3

activator 71:18

activators 113:19

active 16:11,16,21

17:9 20:1 25:4

26:8 28:5 30:14

32:5,14,16 46:20

67:20 68:18,22

71:4 75:12 76:9

77:22 78:5,6,15

78:22 86:18 87:10

87:22 88:13,18

92:11 98:20

110:17,20 111:3,3

119:19,20 125:19

actives 17:3 19:3

activity 21:14

22:22 23:6,7,16

28:3 30:7 63:12

72:7 76:16 86:6

92:11

actual 17:20 30:3

68:14

ad 82:10 104:8,14

add 36:9 38:11

47:19 64:7 89:6

92:21 94:18

104:13 128:1

added 16:5 68:20

70:8 77:7,17 91:9

92:4 95:18 96:2

102:1 109:19

119:22 141:15

addition 13:21

19:17 58:10

additional 7:22

51:22 72:21

130:16 132:20

133:7 135:1 145:1

address 52:16

99:18 117:5

addressed 71:13

75:3 85:5 133:9

addresses 84:16

addressing 106:15

adherence 79:21

adjuster 86:19

123:19

adjustment 76:9

adjuvant 59:6 69:5

69:11,12,14 71:9

76:8,11,12,14,14

77:17 86:19 90:19

91:1,8,11 92:3,8,9

99:1 106:14

108:11 110:2

116:5 141:14,14

adjuvants 59:4

66:19 67:14 68:6

68:12 69:1 70:4,6

71:2 73:2 75:5,15

76:1,2 77:12

79:15,19 91:8,13

91:20,21,22 92:2

103:20 108:7

142:8,12,17

administration

44:21

administrative

36:20

advance 45:22

advancing 20:9

advertisement

39:17

advertising 50:6

advocating 78:2

aerobic 31:14

Affairs 9:6,22

afford 7:11

afternoon 60:2

ag 66:17 91:14,17

107:17 111:11

agency 1:1 6:21 7:1

15:6 18:9 72:22

74:7 99:21 106:13

106:15 110:5

116:16 128:16

131:16 132:8

133:9 135:15

136:22

agencywide 59:3

agency's 33:14

agenda 6:15 99:5

agent 26:8 27:5

118:14 123:18

agents 27:12

aggressive 30:19

ago 53:14 89:16

agricultural 77:13

109:17 110:1

123:3

agriculture 69:15

ahead 12:11,16

35:21 38:10 57:4

81:17 117:15

air 60:21 134:9

aka 142:12

albeit 92:15

Aldridge 2:10 10:2

allotted 7:10 99:5

allow 7:8 22:4

26:13 54:9 114:3

122:18

allows 27:22 63:19

86:22 121:13

alongside 103:3

alphabetical

115:14

alterations 113:22

amended 38:11

Ameribrom 9:7

109:10 128:14,14

America 2:7 9:6

12:3

amine 69:19 71:6

111:15

ammonia 6:6 14:1

23:20 37:16,18

38:10,15 40:9

41:11,13,21 42:13

42:18 43:2,7,15

44:17 45:12 46:16

47:4,4,6,13,20

48:3,4,9,14,21

49:7 51:12 52:4

52:18 53:11,14,17

53:19,22 54:4,5,7

54:9,12,15,22

65:12,15,19 67:3

70:4,18 72:11

75:19 78:13 79:11

85:3,19 89:14,18

90:7,9 92:21 93:7

94:18 95:17,21

98:2,13 103:18,19

104:1 106:3,17

107:6 108:11

109:19 110:19

113:4 118:17,22

120:15,22 121:7

121:13,13 122:8

124:17,21 125:17

125:19,21

ammonia-based

72:3

AMMONIA/UR...

1:8

ammonium 9:8

13:19 15:17,22

16:10,18 17:4,5

18:10,18 20:6,13

22:13 24:13 31:4

31:6,16,18 32:2

32:21 69:11,11,14

69:19 71:17

109:21 111:7

118:3,7 124:20

125:14,16,21,22

126:22 127:17

128:3,12,13

amount 25:19

26:10 63:21 66:5

75:2 125:20

analyses 33:5

analysis 14:16,22

16:12 20:21 22:17

analytical 103:2

Ancona 2:14 10:20

10:20

anecdotal 122:5

announce 145:8

announced 8:6

announcing 133:5

annually 61:12

answer 8:3 57:8

77:19 103:16

121:9,20 125:9

129:11 130:14

132:13 140:1

answering 15:4

antimicrobial 2:2,4

2:6 66:17 72:5

142:10

Antimicrobials 6:8

8:19 37:7 82:8,17

anxious 66:9

anybody 80:16

120:20

anyway 49:15

apparatus 87:16

apparently 72:12

appear 67:8
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 149

appears 94:11

Appendix 104:16

applicable 83:13

application 27:11

30:12 32:18 124:6

applications 85:10

applicators 40:17

40:20

applied 29:17

30:13 101:9,14,19

101:21 127:9

applies 34:3 83:17

apply 62:18 100:21

appreciate 12:21

112:21 116:17

131:8,12 133:15

approach 19:16

37:3 54:3 110:22

approaches 108:9

126:8

appropriate 63:17

65:1 71:15 79:6

105:8

appropriately

15:12

appropriately-st...

34:11

approved 20:4

45:22 105:4

117:18 119:10

aquatic 41:20

aqueous 16:4 49:20

area 25:20 41:9

66:15,17,18 73:6

84:1

areas 67:12 93:14

arguably 44:15

argue 106:5

argued 19:16

argumentation

108:12

arguments 136:20

Arlington 1:21

Ashland 2:8,8,9,21

2:22 3:7 4:4,10,21

4:22 5:9 6:18

9:10,12,17,21

11:19,21 12:10

13:11 29:21 38:3

39:21 44:12 51:8

54:2 78:2,18 83:7

86:4 92:6 95:7

96:13 97:20 99:14

99:17,19 100:4

102:18 115:15,19

120:19 121:3

123:1 126:17

128:15 130:8,13

137:7 143:4

Ashland's 41:16

110:18 136:17

aside 62:4

asked 8:2 42:15

61:2 68:11 101:8

103:5 107:20

132:18,19 137:2

137:17 141:11

asking 64:17,18

80:15 83:19 85:7

85:22 86:1 90:4

93:2 98:1 105:19

112:15,19 125:2

133:19 135:4

137:11

aspects 25:22 49:10

100:11

asserting 88:2

assess 21:16

assessments 102:9

assist 13:2

Assistant 9:4 11:7

associates 50:19

ASTM 91:15,15

ATP 31:14

attention 17:17

75:11 83:13

attributable 102:6

authority 68:5

authorization

38:15,20,21 43:10

authorize 53:16

authorized 38:9

authorizing 54:21

authors 26:4

available 7:16 8:4

30:10,15 79:9

101:2

avoid 45:9

avoiding 45:4

awarded 61:15

aware 71:11 114:19

120:20

B

back 19:11 22:4,9

23:2 28:9 33:2

50:19 66:1 81:4

81:11 82:8,12

96:14 97:17

110:15 141:10,13

145:11

bacteria 93:17

bacterial 37:21

47:2 90:11 93:18

balance 21:18

balancing 75:20

based 60:12 78:7

79:16 80:4 92:15

93:11

basic 23:18

basically 26:14

34:6 47:11 48:12

76:6,17 93:6

96:19 141:22

basis 42:17 67:5

Bayer 80:4

bear 39:11

beginning 129:18

begs 87:21

behalf 10:2,5,8,18

11:5,15 92:6

99:17,19 115:19

130:12 135:22

believe 18:6 34:9

41:15 50:13 54:3

69:5 71:15 72:9

72:21 73:1 81:19

107:5 111:20

113:2 116:5

129:17 134:9

believes 79:13

bench 103:5

best 26:3 129:12

144:6

better 73:15 75:16

75:22 82:2 87:1

123:17

betwixt 136:6

Beveridge 2:20

11:19

beyond 85:1,8

big 41:3 48:2 84:1

84:6

Bill 2:5,13 8:22

10:15 81:20 82:5

billion 61:11

binding 127:11

biocidal 16:21 17:2

19:5,6,22 21:14

22:21 23:6,7,16

28:3,6 29:8,9 30:8

30:11 32:5 52:19

53:12 72:4 76:16

87:21,22

biocide 9:9 14:18

19:13 20:16 21:8

21:17,19 22:16

23:10 28:7 29:5

32:14,17 50:9

53:5,7 77:5,7

89:20 94:22 95:5

98:18 119:6

142:15

biocidely 16:11

biocides 13:13 14:7

14:15,19 15:1,7

16:16 17:10,13

18:3,7 19:2 22:1

28:12,16 29:20

32:19 33:1,15

80:20 100:15

109:6

biofilm 50:13 51:2

biological 30:7

31:22

bit 14:17 29:13

37:4 58:18,20

59:9 84:2 125:6

bleach 37:19 42:18

43:5 89:11,17,21

90:10 107:3

122:18 126:10,13

blend 123:13

book 65:9

bottle 43:2

bottom 33:4 49:18

50:11,15

Boucher 2:10 3:13

4:9,16 10:4,4 35:5

35:13 36:7 51:3

55:13 56:11,14,20

57:2 89:5,7 90:6

90:15 104:12,13

106:7,10 108:10

108:14,21 110:14

120:12 122:20

123:21 124:3,7

125:1,8 138:20

139:4 140:19,22

Brady 2:21 3:9

11:20,20 13:2

16:17 20:20 21:2

96:12,13 97:6,10

97:13,15 102:17

102:17

Branch 2:3,6 8:18

break 6:20 81:4

bridge 81:8

brief 8:14 20:20

86:1 129:11

briefly 61:9 67:11

105:11,12 110:9

117:7 121:2

bring 35:3 61:2

64:17

brings 73:8 143:19

broad 22:19 76:2

77:10,13 102:11

broader 85:1 106:1

broadest 7:12

brochures 144:14

bromide 31:4,16

71:18 89:10 107:2

110:14 118:3

126:22 127:18
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 150

128:3,13

bromide-based 9:8

Brookman 2:11

3:14 10:7,8 48:17

48:18,19 97:8

98:11,12

brought 103:4,9

Brown 2:18 3:21

11:14,14 57:12,20

58:2 66:13 67:1

91:5,6 111:14

128:19

Bryan 2:15 11:7

Buckman 2:10,11

2:12,12,13 3:12

4:8,15,17,19 5:13

6:18 10:2,6,8,10

10:13,16 13:11

29:21 35:3 44:13

48:3,19 49:9,10

49:22 78:2,18

80:1 83:6 86:4

92:17 95:7,18

98:12 99:14

120:11 124:16

125:13 126:3

128:13 135:20,22

138:4 140:18

Buckman's 18:13

36:16 51:15 58:6

78:13 79:10 89:4

126:5 128:4 132:1

buffer 63:2 64:5

building 1:19

103:22

bulk 136:20

burning 141:7

Busan 105:3 126:7

business 11:12 12:1

58:8,15 59:13

107:17

buy 62:7 66:9

C

calculate 24:3

28:20

calendar 144:15,17

144:18,20 145:2,5

California 70:2,6

call 3:2 48:22 50:16

69:16 143:20

called 92:2

calling 98:22

108:11

calls 119:8

canceled 79:12

canceling 35:9 80:4

capability 64:22

capture 61:16

carbon 61:16

careful 45:3

carefully 50:10

carrier 64:8 98:22

carries 50:18

carry 49:22 57:3

cascade 107:16

case 16:14,20 17:4

17:6 22:18 23:3

29:9 36:21 37:6

37:15 41:4 49:8

49:11 51:20 78:7

89:14 98:21

123:11

cases 45:21 126:7

catalysts 75:7

categories 28:14

75:5 108:7

cause 79:2

caused 101:1

caustic 28:5 47:19

CBI 7:18 36:11

56:5,5 138:5,11

145:16,20,22

cell 50:10,12,13,18

certainly 39:12

111:10 126:6

cetera 7:10 100:22

106:15

CFR 83:14 92:8

challenged 18:12

Chaney 2:22 3:10

4:6,21 11:22,22

13:2 29:13,15

117:12,13 126:18

126:19 127:21

change 35:5 39:16

46:1,5,8,10 96:16

changed 40:15

47:17 81:22

characteristics

21:6,9 27:7 96:22

97:2

characterization

89:2

chart 31:1

checking 114:2

chem 66:17

chemical 15:1 16:2

20:13,14 22:3,5

23:15 27:20 28:15

37:8 48:6 63:21

73:16 87:17 88:20

90:22 91:2,3,4

92:12 96:20 97:3

97:4 98:16 109:20

111:12 117:20

118:12 123:4

chemically 97:10

chemically-distinct

32:14,17

chemicals 14:2

16:4,7 20:7 21:12

30:19 41:19 53:7

59:2 66:5 87:1

101:9 109:7

118:18 128:7

chemistries 19:13

22:6 62:21 65:1

104:6

chemistry 14:20

18:14 25:22 37:4

41:10 46:3,14

52:8,9 62:10,19

63:18 64:15 77:15

101:5 116:7

chest 104:22

Chicago 60:13

Chief 2:3 8:18

chloramine 17:4

25:22 52:5 70:13

70:17,19 93:1

94:10,13,18,21

95:17,22 97:11

98:14,17 141:15

141:19

chloramines 24:14

25:10 32:7,13

41:16 49:16 93:5

93:8,9 97:9 104:1

120:16,22 128:7

chlorate 122:11

chlorinated 95:3

chlorinating 26:8

chlorine 26:2,7,9

27:5 30:6,11,15

31:2,9,10 51:16

71:14 74:20 75:2

76:19 78:8 92:22

94:12,17,19,22

95:5 96:18 98:19

98:20 104:3,3,21

105:1,6 111:4

119:19,21 120:3

122:7,12 141:16

141:20 142:9,10

142:11,15

chlorite 71:17

chlorobromide

97:15

chlorourea 17:6

24:20 25:11,17

27:8 32:16 97:7

97:13 102:20

141:22

Chloroureas 32:9

chorine 75:22

circumstances 85:2

claim 14:5,9 39:18

42:22 43:1 53:11

58:16 69:21 75:15

77:6 86:21 87:20

137:8

claimed 16:9

claims 13:7 14:4

22:11 45:19 46:8

48:8 51:14,22

52:14,17 75:17

76:1 77:2 86:3,12

86:15 87:2 88:3,4

90:5,7,13 93:19

104:8

clarification

124:15 135:2

136:1 142:17

clarified 134:15

clarify 95:9 97:21

134:13 137:12

143:2

clarifying 140:17

classic 27:19

classifying 142:8

clear 36:15 60:6

68:4 69:17 79:14

86:16,16 98:18

113:13

clearance 138:14

clearly 53:10 70:22

118:20 127:5,14

clients 45:14

close 146:12

clothing 30:20

cluster 50:10,12

clusters 50:13

coffee 81:7

colleague 110:9

colleagues 82:15

86:8 111:11

collect 52:15

collectively 82:17

colors 12:7

column 25:2

columns 22:22

combination 15:17

18:2 28:4 32:8,9

90:9 127:6 128:15

combine 20:14

combined 20:11

30:6 31:2,9 32:4

118:22 127:15

128:10 142:12

combining 18:9

come 21:15,22 28:9

28:11 34:17 72:19

129:3 134:3

comes 28:14 30:12
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 151

47:14 76:16 79:4

118:9 124:16

coming 12:15

34:14 36:17 41:4

41:13 42:2 103:11

commenced 133:2

comment 72:18

80:8 130:19,21

131:4,6 133:2,3

134:4 136:2 146:9

146:11

commented 116:6

comments 3:15

8:11,13 72:20

85:5 109:14

130:16 133:7,20

commercial 45:4,5

commercializing

100:17

commit 133:12

committed 73:12

commodities 41:1

communication

126:11

communications

15:21 131:15

community 49:3

companies 4:2 5:6

6:14 13:15,17

34:6,14 35:15

62:2,4 73:18 84:5

86:10 87:15,18

104:5 111:22

131:20

company 10:21

11:8,10,13 58:21

60:11 83:2 114:7

129:10

company's 56:5

73:10

comparative 93:8

compare 118:6

compared 99:13

comparing 50:8

53:6

comparison 117:8

compete 60:17

competing 44:8

51:4 53:16 59:2

competition 39:8

44:9 45:12 60:16

competitive 13:10

18:13 19:10

competitor 34:5

competitors 39:22

46:6 113:19

complete 57:16

74:9 79:7

completed 34:17

completely 32:6

77:10 101:4

109:22

compliance 14:11

34:17 42:12 43:12

45:17 73:14 80:2

complicated 45:6

complies 43:18

complying 45:15

component 62:11

63:8 86:18

components 62:7

62:20 64:13,14

86:20 113:15

composition 43:20

46:9

compound 92:10

101:5

compounds 72:3

79:16 98:8 101:12

computationally

24:19

conceivably 53:21

concentrated

101:22

concentration 29:7

119:14

concern 101:1

104:15

concerned 45:15

99:22

concerns 67:4

101:6

concludes 115:9

conclusion 15:5

53:13 143:19

conclusions 20:22

concrete 53:15

conditioners 69:17

92:1

conditions 28:22

28:22 33:20

conducted 7:7

104:18

confident 82:10

confidential 58:7

58:15 125:3

confirm 138:3

conflict 127:11,16

confusion 44:14

131:19

Congress 39:4

conjunction 119:4

connected 106:16

connection 90:8

consensus 48:13

49:1,2 51:7 52:8

consider 36:17

72:22 111:2 138:8

138:12,13

consideration

132:4

considerations

15:3 84:11

considered 18:11

67:10 68:3 106:20

consistent 52:6,7

67:18 76:11 77:10

91:19

consistently 15:9

constant 24:12,17

24:21 28:19

constants 24:3,16

constructed 17:21

consult 139:16

consultation

139:20

consumed 76:21

consumer 123:11

consumers 40:22

contact 101:10

contain 58:7,11

125:17

container 103:8

containers 104:9

contains 42:1 76:6

76:8 77:4

contested 92:16

context 13:5 52:5

53:12 59:6 83:17

85:9 90:21 93:20

94:7 110:2

continue 16:6

58:14 132:5

continued 4:1 5:3

18:17 38:9 39:2

54:11,21

continues 89:15

contrary 18:20

19:16

contribute 110:19

contributes 110:17

contribution 61:20

contributor 78:15

control 12:2 17:2

24:16 30:1 37:20

49:10 59:1 73:15

86:14 87:1,21

88:15 93:16,18

118:8

controlled 47:3

77:1

convenience 52:11

convince 19:18

Cooper 2:12 4:19

10:11,12 126:6

copies 113:6,9

117:15

copy 81:19 146:7

corporation 9:18

correct 40:19 65:20

92:20 93:1,4,10

93:11,19 112:11

113:17,20,21

114:8,10,11,12

120:8

correctly 88:7

correspondences

145:17

corrosive 30:20

cost 45:15 132:1

costs 39:11

counsel 2:4 8:21

9:17 10:16 11:1,8

11:19 82:16 132:1

countries 60:19

country 122:9

counts 31:15

couple 31:20 42:14

48:9 52:12 62:1

83:19 84:21

110:12 115:22

120:13 124:14

136:16

course 31:20 32:11

100:9,14 118:5

119:15 145:16

court 80:5

courteous 146:21

covering 7:5

co-op 123:15

CPDA 91:18

create 16:15 18:3

19:3

created 17:10

36:21 109:6

118:22

creates 16:21 20:15

33:21 38:16

creating 44:14

critical 64:11

crop 70:6

crops 69:12

crossing 114:21

Crystal 1:21

current 80:14

113:9 122:17

currently 112:7

currently-registe...

38:16 54:8

customer 15:3

17:22 31:3 33:7

60:15,18 62:16,17

104:19 126:8,11

customers 17:11

29:19 30:5,10
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 152

46:7 61:1,2,11

62:6 63:6,11,22

64:9,16,18 66:2,9

73:17 86:16 88:12

cyanuric 72:2

cycle 39:14

Cynthia 2:13 4:14

5:20 10:17 11:4

95:13 124:12

136:14

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

3:1 4:1 5:3

D

D 104:16

daily 42:17

Dale 25:20

damaging 44:20

daresay 80:11

data 29:14 30:4

34:4 63:15,16

65:6 102:20

Dave 48:18 98:11

David 2:11 3:14

48:16

day 63:20 64:3

137:13

days 7:22 8:4,10

112:16,21 113:12

115:2 130:17,21

132:19,21 133:18

136:6 144:11,15

144:17,18,20,21

145:2,2,5

day-in 17:14

day-out 17:14

deal 82:10 131:19

dealing 21:17

23:10 98:7

debate 85:2

decade 89:11 107:4

decades 66:16

78:14

December 68:9

decided 37:16

106:21 136:5,7

137:5

deciding 106:2

decision 38:4 51:10

72:15 73:2 74:8

74:10 80:5,12,21

84:17 107:21

109:15 129:19

136:22 138:22

139:18 147:2

decisionmaking

146:13

decisions 44:16

132:8

decisive 131:16

deem 139:20

defines 92:9

definition 14:18

17:15 18:4 42:20

42:22 43:8 51:18

90:21 92:8

definitions 91:7,16

definitive 132:8

degradation 70:1

deliver 61:1 64:18

94:22

delivered 88:21

delivers 66:7

delivery 119:7

demand 96:18

demonstrate 14:14

demonstrated

87:10

Dennis 2:3 8:17 9:4

115:3,4

Denny 106:11

departed 78:13

deployed 88:1

100:2

deploying 61:13

derived 23:16

derives 23:7

describe 91:10

100:3

described 108:8

118:13,13

describes 123:2

describing 132:2

design 97:2

designed 110:4

desires 34:20

despite 70:12 89:8

detail 47:10

detailed 47:22

details 83:20

detergents 118:18

determine 21:7

77:17 78:21

develop 62:18

developed 63:2

Development 10:12

device 110:5

diagram 47:9 48:1

123:2

diagramed 23:17

Diamond 2:20

11:19

dictated 118:5

119:14

dictates 80:5

differences 46:17

48:2 86:3 93:22

94:8 95:1,2 104:6

118:8

different 14:22

26:21 27:6,13,15

37:3 47:15 51:19

53:7 58:18 67:12

68:16 70:4,8 75:4

78:20 80:11 85:12

91:12 93:5,12

94:5,6 98:8 99:12

102:10 103:15

109:22 126:20

142:7,12

differentiated 61:3

61:4 64:19

differently 85:20

94:5

differing 96:22

difficult 40:4

146:18

diligence 74:13

89:9

dime 46:3

dimethylhydanto...

72:2

dioxide 61:16

122:12

direct 23:5 26:6,9

26:15 27:3 28:1

39:8 44:9 45:12

direction 42:21

directions 40:14

43:4 47:5 51:16

70:20 105:4

118:15 119:1,16

120:5 121:12

122:15 127:3,9

directly 87:2 98:20

129:9

Director 1:21 2:2

3:3,5 6:3,8 9:1,21

12:5 34:22 35:10

35:14,19 36:2,5

55:5,14,19 56:2,6

56:16,22 57:7,17

57:21 59:20 60:1

81:1,16 97:16

98:9 101:13,16

105:20 112:3

114:9 115:6

120:10 124:9

128:22 129:16

131:2,7 132:11

134:1,12 135:6,8

135:18 136:4,11

139:7 140:5,10,16

141:2,6 142:19

143:12,15,18

144:16,19 145:4

145:21

disadvantage

131:21

disagree 47:14

disagreement 41:9

disagrees 38:3

disappointed 74:2

111:9

discharging 41:22

disclosed 49:14

discovery 101:4

discrepancy 124:22

discretion 34:11

discuss 6:6 111:10

discussing 7:18

discussion 21:3

56:3 64:3 82:12

109:4 129:5

disinfect 89:11

90:1 107:4

disinfectants 70:16

disposal 39:15

dispute 46:19

79:22

disputes 45:4,5

48:5

disputing 46:20

disruption 107:13

disruptions 79:2

distinct 27:6 28:15

32:5

distinction 108:20

distinctions 85:11

distinguish 108:17

distorted 58:12

distract 110:5

distributed 9:9

82:19 83:6,6

distribution 106:16

disturb 80:14

divided 25:6

Division 2:2,4,6 6:9

8:19 37:7 82:8,17

139:17

docket 7:16,20 8:5

8:7,11,13 74:1,3

131:1 133:1,9

134:3 138:3,6

145:9,10 146:4

documentation 8:1

8:3 49:5 99:10

104:18 134:17

documented 53:11

documents 72:16

DOE 61:15

doing 19:9 37:11

39:20,21 79:6

84:11 102:12

107:11 114:17
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 153

121:18 122:3

123:9 142:18

dominant 22:16

dominate 23:11

29:10

dosage 118:4

119:13

dose 63:18

dosing 25:3 28:5

Dow 61:21 62:3

Dr 9:3 10:7 11:14

11:20 13:2 16:17

20:20 21:2 48:18

57:12,20 58:2

67:1 90:18 91:5

96:12 97:6,8,10

97:13 98:11

102:17 115:8

128:19 141:4,9,19

142:16 143:1,5,8

143:11,14,15,17

drafted 82:18

dragging 44:19

dramatic 79:2

dramatically 67:8

drawn 82:12 85:11

draws 83:12

dressed 84:6

drinking 70:9,14

70:16 71:7 74:22

75:1 77:11 79:16

103:22 106:22

109:16 122:8

139:16

Drive 1:21

due 74:12 89:8

E

E 2:17 3:19 105:2

earlier 76:21

110:16 127:14

141:11

early 53:20 74:14

earth-shattering

39:12

easy 138:10

Edens 2:9 5:15

10:1,1 135:21,21

136:9

Edwards 2:3 8:17

8:17 9:4 106:12

115:3

effect 30:6 39:9

44:22 88:8 94:1,6

142:11

effective 59:1 77:4

86:22

effectively 66:4

80:17

efficiency 131:10

efficiently 66:4

effort 7:11 46:6

eighties 25:21

either 23:19 29:20

42:14 43:13 44:7

45:20 70:17 94:18

95:7 106:2 120:19

123:1 126:8

element 45:17

Elizabeth 2:18 3:21

11:14 66:12,13,14

66:22 74:21 91:5

111:14

emails 6:13

embarking 74:13

emerged 100:13

emphasized 43:14

employ 87:15

employees 60:14

62:15 87:18 100:1

101:8

encouraging 34:13

endpoint 128:8

ends 108:12

end-use 38:6

energies 24:20

energy 60:21

enforce 43:22

105:17 121:16

enforceable 45:20

enforcement 15:13

34:12

engaged 99:21

engaging 34:15

enhance 69:22

92:11

enhanced 93:15,16

96:22

ensure 120:8

ensuring 42:11

entertain 129:20

129:22

entire 68:1 73:5

entirely 41:15

46:15 52:6

entities 28:15

entitled 122:22

entity 23:13,15

27:6 96:20 97:3

entomologist 66:15

environment 33:17

84:14

environmental 1:1

9:17,22 41:8 61:6

66:6 84:17 99:7

99:12 112:2

EPA 2:2,4,4,5,6

3:22 5:6 6:5 8:21

9:2 12:17 14:13

15:10,11 16:6

17:8,14 19:1,8,12

19:18,19 20:4,9

20:12,15,16 32:15

33:13,18 34:1,4

34:10,20 40:1,5

44:16 45:1,18,20

45:21,22 49:3,4

49:14 54:6 58:14

59:7 66:20 67:2,6

67:12 68:4,13

70:10,15,22 71:19

73:9,11 74:2,18

75:9 78:13,17

79:6,13,20 81:18

84:10 92:7 108:4

108:17,19 109:9

109:12 115:10,10

118:5 119:15

120:17 126:9

141:3

EPA's 14:19 18:4

18:13 51:18 67:17

80:2 128:5

EPA-registered

62:20 64:4 120:15

equal 28:5 141:15

141:20

equally 62:11

equate 94:10

equation 26:10

equilibrium 21:10

22:21 24:1,3,4,11

24:16,21 28:19

equipment 64:6

119:9 120:7 124:6

equivalencies 96:8

especially 20:6

essentially 85:17

142:1,7

Essentials 60:21

established 80:3

89:15 107:12

146:19

estimate 25:2

estimated 24:19

et 7:10 100:22

106:15

EUP 38:11

evaluate 78:19

80:18,20

event 53:4 79:20

everybody 12:6

37:12

evidence 18:6

74:17

exactly 40:3 41:10

61:1 75:17 78:10

101:21 104:4

123:20

examination 33:7

examine 52:10

137:6

example 28:18

52:21 70:21

examples 69:13

96:15 102:8,16

exception 122:4

excess 29:1,11

Exchange 60:12

62:3

exchanged 134:5

excluded 137:2

excuse 17:5 55:7

56:13

execute 27:18

exercise 34:10

exert 88:7

Exhibit 105:2

exist 48:5

existing 72:8

112:20 113:21

exists 59:7 71:11,12

113:12 114:1

expand 67:8

expect 7:5 104:10

132:7

expectation 133:20

134:6

expected 104:7

134:14 137:17

expeditiously 144:7

expense 44:10

experience 144:1

expertise 62:13

experts 63:15

explain 116:7

explained 47:10

explaining 87:12

explains 127:5,13

explicit 127:3

128:5

exposure 40:20,21

express 38:14

expression 24:1

expressions 24:4

expressly 53:16

121:11

extend 69:22

extensive 89:8

116:10

extensively 90:19

extent 91:10 140:8

extremely 30:16

eyes 118:19
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 154

F

faces 37:7

fact 17:18 19:5,8

22:11 30:13 45:16

46:21 63:14 70:7

71:12 72:4,19

73:17 88:8 122:13

122:14,15 125:17

125:18 128:9

factors 14:13

facts 83:22

factual 124:3

fair 25:19 46:17

88:9

fairly 24:11 73:20

83:4 106:21

122:13

fairness 44:20

137:15

falls 18:4

familiar 59:15

100:15 108:21

far 53:18 75:9

farmer 123:14

favors 73:21

features 15:14 93:9

February 1:14

38:21

Federal 133:4

145:8

feed 64:10,10,10

65:1 100:21,22

119:7 120:7

feel 74:6 118:8

Fellow 11:21

fertilizer 123:16

fewer 87:1

field 60:15 87:15

FIFRA 13:18 14:10

15:8 17:15 18:20

19:18 20:17 33:10

33:11,19,20 34:19

39:6 40:11 42:8

42:12 43:11,16

44:21 45:1,16,17

67:9 68:7 69:2

83:10 84:12 88:14

117:5

FIFRA's 39:13

105:17

figure 12:7 37:9

40:5

filamentous 93:17

filed 67:6

filth 118:17

final 68:10

finalize 146:13

finally 34:9 42:6

46:11 59:8 67:22

73:1 79:20

financial 84:7

100:9

find 81:10 100:19

100:20 102:21

finding 27:2

fine 54:10 135:16

finished 139:3

first 12:17 18:8,21

19:22 34:15 38:18

57:14 58:20 59:11

67:2 73:10 78:3

83:3,11 102:19

103:17 106:10

111:5 115:17

116:2 117:16

fish 42:1,3 102:7

fit 76:4 130:6

fits 65:19

fitting 83:21,21

five 13:21 69:4

112:20 113:11

115:2,22 121:5

129:10 132:19

144:11,16,20

floor 20:19

focus 13:6 17:17

37:5 61:17 64:18

84:12 85:14

focusing 20:1

folks 37:15 38:5

46:20 51:11 54:2

84:7 99:9

follow 40:18

118:10 144:10

followed 6:19,22

31:5,17 109:11

following 30:3 58:6

118:13

followup 112:15,17

food 40:22

footprint 66:6

forever 145:14

form 22:8 32:4

71:6 91:3 96:15

125:17 127:9

formally 23:22

25:12

formation 24:13,20

141:21

formed 14:20 17:3

formerly 9:7

forming 69:19 93:5

forms 95:4 111:15

formula 125:3

formulate 47:20

formulated 101:22

formulation 15:22

68:15

formulations 46:22

forum 6:11

forward 115:11

147:2

foul 86:14

fouling 31:22 63:12

found 70:22 101:3

105:7

four 67:12 139:9

fourth 123:5

framework 19:2,9

19:11 68:1

frankly 121:19

free 8:11 24:20

27:5 30:10,15

31:10

front 51:5 79:9

132:6

frustrating 144:1

full 91:17

fully 91:16 128:16

function 141:21

functions 92:10

further 91:10

118:16

furthermore 34:1

72:14 119:12

G

gallons 61:11

gas 104:3

gases 118:19

gathered 8:8

gauge 30:7 31:22

General 2:4 8:21

10:16 11:1,8

82:16

generate 49:19

generated 32:7,9

41:17 80:20

generators 122:13

Geri 2:9 5:15 10:1

135:21

getting 23:5 43:16

43:17 88:7 102:22

give 33:8 38:14

47:8 63:10 125:2

132:20 133:8,11

137:7

given 26:9 28:21

137:3,9

gives 51:16 63:4

giving 36:17

glad 116:20

global 10:12 11:12

12:3 59:12

glyphosate 68:10

111:8,15

go 8:15 12:11,16

24:14 26:16 35:21

57:4 69:6 81:9,17

96:14 97:17 109:3

115:17 117:14

121:16 130:22

138:5

goes 19:11 35:17

57:13 73:4 110:15

123:14 130:2

141:10

going 12:20,22 13:6

14:8,16,21 16:12

20:19 21:4,5,18

22:17 24:11,17

29:10,12,16 35:12

37:2,10 41:22

43:13 48:7,16

51:12 56:9,17

58:19 60:4,6

63:11 67:11 69:13

71:5 80:19 81:21

82:19 83:18 99:18

107:16,18 109:16

116:20 117:19

131:5 132:5,12

134:3 137:1 138:8

138:21 140:11,20

145:11 146:10

Goldberg 2:19 3:16

3:18 4:12 5:22

11:16,16 55:7,11

55:17,22 56:4,7

56:13 57:2 58:4

66:13 73:8 86:7

86:11 88:10

103:16 106:5

108:7 110:7,8,11

112:9 113:14,18

121:8 123:7 124:1

124:5 127:19

139:12,15 140:15

141:18 142:3

Goldberg's 85:5

good 35:2,20 39:5

44:21 60:2 129:5

gotten 51:7

governs 77:11

grant 38:13 61:15

granted 72:9 79:12

80:18

graph 49:18

graphs 30:3

graver 101:6

great 131:19

137:18

gross 118:17

ground 7:4 8:14

groundrule 129:15
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 155

groundrules 3:4

130:5,6

group 117:15

groups 112:2

growing 123:16

growth 30:1

guess 41:13 53:1

84:2 133:17

guidance 117:22

guys 42:17 44:18

81:5 125:9 141:17

H

hall 81:9,10

halogen 63:2 64:7

65:11,18 67:15

71:6 76:8 79:15

halogens 67:20

hand 23:9 33:2

38:13,14 110:6

handle 137:1

handling 66:19

handout 83:12

hanging 134:9

Hanna 2:7 9:5

Hansen 2:20 3:8

4:5,10,22 5:11

11:18,18 12:12

33:4 87:6,7 88:10

89:3 92:5,5 99:15

99:16,17 105:11

105:12 106:8

109:1,2 115:16

121:2,3 127:22

130:9,12 131:3,8

131:12 132:14

133:15 134:2

135:7,10,13,17

142:21,22 143:3,7

143:9

Hanson 115:18

happen 107:18

happening 42:9

53:3 88:19

happens 48:14,20

49:19 50:20,22

52:19 88:20 98:18

happy 115:17

138:16

harming 55:2

Harrigan-Farrelly

1:22 2:2 3:3,5 6:3

6:7 12:5 34:22

35:10,14,19 36:2

36:5 55:5,14,19

56:2,6,16,22 57:7

57:17,21 59:20

60:1 81:1,16

97:16 98:9 101:13

101:16,17 105:20

112:3,5 114:9

115:6 120:10

124:9 128:22

129:16 131:2,7

132:11 134:1,12

135:6,8,18 136:4

136:11 139:7

140:5,10,16 141:2

141:6 142:19

143:12,15,18

144:16,19 145:4

145:21

havoc 109:16

hazard 117:20

118:12

hazardous 118:19

118:21

hazards 101:12

118:10

headed 129:21

heading 93:7 95:19

heads 40:3

health 33:17 40:9

84:13,16 99:7,12

hear 6:12 11:3

59:18 132:5

heard 62:22 82:8

90:18 106:5

120:14 129:3

132:4

hearing 51:11

141:13,16

heavily-regulated

39:19 46:4

held 1:18 146:6

Hello 10:11 59:19

59:22,22

helped 61:10

helpful 42:14 98:5

137:7

helps 66:5

herbicide 69:18

80:4 123:15,18

Herculean 79:1

Hercules 3:7 4:4

5:9 6:18 9:10,12

9:19 12:11 83:7

86:4 97:20

hesitated 46:13

Hi 9:20 48:18

126:18

high 60:5 63:5

highlight 93:22

94:4,8 117:9

118:4

highlighted 131:14

highly 91:18

history 67:17

hold 141:5

hominem 104:8,14

hope 36:21 73:9

74:2 111:10 138:9

hopefully 51:9 82:1

90:2 129:6

human 33:16 84:13

84:16 99:7,12

hurt 102:7

hydrolysis 22:10

26:11,12 93:12

hypo 16:1,12,16,19

17:1,6,7 18:3,10

19:20,22 20:2,3

20:10,11 22:10

30:12,13 32:8,12

87:10 88:13,14,18

116:8 117:4,10

118:22 121:5

127:6,15,17,20

128:11,15

hypochlorine 92:21

hypochlorite 13:22

15:18,19 22:12

28:4 32:4,10

47:13 62:21 64:5

76:7 86:17 87:4

104:4 117:17

119:5 120:16,18

120:21 121:11,18

126:4,10,13 127:1

hypochlorous 22:8

22:12,16 23:3,5,7

23:19 25:6,14,16

26:14,16,20 27:14

28:21 29:4 32:6

41:14 47:12 48:21

49:7 50:14,15,18

50:19 98:14

hypo-free 25:16

I

iceberg 106:6

ICL-IP 2:7 9:6

idea 40:19 43:18

117:3

identical 47:7

identified 70:11,12

71:1,8 72:11

108:5

identify 21:19 78:4

95:11 97:18

Illinois 60:13

immediately 8:4

15:11 101:1

119:22

impact 73:4 74:10

95:4

impacted 94:1

impacts 99:7

142:14

implemented 87:13

101:7

implicated 113:2,8

implication 73:2

126:21

implications 68:1

84:17 85:1,8

important 12:19

13:14 14:10 15:4

30:9,16 55:18

62:8,11 73:11

74:7 84:10

impression 91:1

impressive 77:15

improvidently

79:12 80:17

inaccurate 92:7

incidents 102:6

122:6,6,10

include 55:20 56:3

67:14

included 56:5

128:5

includes 113:14

including 8:7 56:4

79:15 109:7

110:18 121:5

inconsistencies

108:3

inconsistency

108:8

inconsistent 89:22

121:19

Incorporated 9:18

incorrect 126:1

increase 47:19

independent 72:7

Index 61:22 62:4

indicate 26:6 31:22

102:10

indicated 25:15

indicates 99:10

indicating 136:2

indication 27:3

33:8 137:8

individual 114:6

industrial 70:9

75:1 79:17 109:5

109:20

industries 85:4

industry 34:7

39:19 46:4 61:21

91:14,17 106:18

107:15,19,22

109:17,17 112:7

112:10 117:19
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 156

123:4

inert 68:16,18 72:6

inerts 78:21

infinity 25:13

information 8:7

14:8 15:3 29:16

50:7,21 51:5,8,9

53:19,20 58:8,11

58:15 65:4 72:21

79:8,9 114:8

116:10,18 125:2

132:6,20 133:7,13

134:18 137:10

145:1,6,7,10,16

ingredient 67:20

76:9,17 77:22

78:5,6 79:1 92:12

111:3 125:19

ingredients 16:22

17:1 32:5 46:21

68:17,18 71:4

75:13 77:6 88:4

123:14

inhibitor 123:19

initially 99:21

134:13

innovation 61:3,18

64:19 73:13

innovative 61:13

inorganic 94:3 95:3

input 74:7 111:21

inquired 18:8

inquiring 117:2

inquiry 77:9

inside 51:2 68:19

insight 63:5 117:22

installed 30:21

instances 17:7

19:14

integrated 58:22

integrity 44:5

intend 139:19

intended 47:1

intends 20:17

intensifiers 75:7

intent 17:19 34:18

interaction 111:14

interest 44:4 74:4

interested 8:12

42:11 43:12 82:21

85:6 99:9 106:7

114:22 131:15

interesting 75:14

interestingly 80:13

122:10

intermediate 26:17

94:14,16

International

10:14

interpret 63:16

65:6

interpreted 121:15

interrupt 35:11

interruptions 7:10

intersection 137:10

intimacy 62:17

intrinsic 68:14

introduce 59:11

introduced 18:19

introduction 85:21

introductions 3:6

6:16 8:16

investigated 100:17

invite 95:6 123:1

involved 21:11

62:16 84:7 100:10

in-field 29:13

in-house 9:16

in-line 124:5

in-situ 80:19

ion 69:19,19

irrelevant 19:6

110:3

irritating 118:19

issue 40:4 51:13,14

79:14 82:9 103:1

106:19 110:6

132:9 133:4 137:6

138:7,10 141:14

issued 38:20 80:1

issues 6:12 7:18

8:10 37:5,10,14

41:3 45:9 46:14

73:19 100:9

106:16 117:2

122:5

issuing 80:8

item 102:22

J

jackets 128:3

James 2:21 3:9

Jim 11:20 21:1

29:15 96:12

102:16,17

Joan 1:22 2:2 3:3,5

6:7 55:7 82:4

101:17 112:5,14

jobs 84:11

Johnson 10:18 11:5

11:15,17 95:14

124:13 136:15

Jones 61:21 62:3

Jordan 2:5 8:22,22

81:20 82:4,5 87:5

88:2,22 89:5 90:4

90:12,17 99:3

102:4,14 103:13

104:10 105:10,22

108:2,13,16 109:1

110:8 115:7

judged 72:6

jump 12:9 95:7

99:3 102:18

jurisdictional

37:10

K

Karen 2:20 3:8 4:5

4:10,22 5:11

11:18 21:2 33:3

37:3 40:10 92:5

99:17 115:18

121:3 130:12

142:21

Karen's 39:1

Keenan 2:9 9:20,20

keep 13:14 14:10

keeping 43:8

kept 13:6

key 14:13 21:6

63:22

kick 21:3 81:21

115:13

kill 76:20 93:15,16

102:2

kills 43:3 102:8

kind 28:18 41:17

42:7 45:19 51:14

56:7 82:20 107:6

107:7,21 111:18

146:22

kinds 53:7 69:8

78:21 129:22

knock 123:17

know 33:17,18

40:21 41:3,5

42:17 49:12 50:21

51:6,6 53:2 62:17

75:9 79:4 81:6

90:16 92:15

103:21 111:8

114:18 116:14

121:17 132:3

140:19 143:22

144:4,7 146:17

147:1

knowing 41:7 64:9

70:13

knowledge 17:21

129:12

known 9:7 48:21

68:19 71:13

knows 42:10 49:10

49:13 103:11

114:16

Kristina 2:8 9:16

L

lab 103:2,5

label 39:16 41:20

52:1 71:19 76:11

88:14 117:21

118:15 119:2

121:19 122:15,17

124:20 125:20

127:4,10,13

labeling 40:11,18

42:8 89:22 128:8

labels 20:3 33:20

45:18 69:14,21

113:7 117:8,16

121:5,14 122:18

127:2

Laboratories 10:3

10:10 35:4 48:19

125:13

laid 130:20

Landsman 2:14

10:22,22

large 24:7 29:11

late 47:17

latest 54:1

Laughter 114:15

130:11 140:2,7,13

143:21 144:5

Laura 2:15 11:9

93:3 142:3,5

law 34:18 70:16

lawfully 80:9

lawyers 140:11

lead 20:10

learned 129:5,6

leave 64:2

leaving 40:9 42:12

left 82:9 135:11

lefthand 24:6

legal 14:16 33:5

37:5 130:3 139:1

legally 40:17

lend 116:19

lengthy 34:16

letter 38:20 106:12

letters 6:13

let's 35:16 69:10

98:6 105:21

126:22

level 60:5

levels 25:3

level-playing-field

45:9

life 39:14

lifetime 145:13

light 134:19

limit 101:10

limitations 39:13
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 157

limited 106:21

107:22 109:4

limits 100:20 118:4

119:13

Linda 2:22 3:10 4:6

4:21 11:22 13:2

29:13 102:16

117:7,11,13

126:18

line 12:2 27:14 33:4

52:22 105:22

114:21

lines 108:19 113:3

link 66:1

listed 111:3

listened 74:16

literature 22:2

24:15 25:19 27:1

27:9,22 45:19

46:2 52:2 96:14

little 14:17 21:4

37:4 58:18,20

59:8 60:7 81:7

84:2 125:6

locations 60:18

long 2:10 10:2

38:22 48:22 49:21

50:4 67:13 71:12

89:16 143:22

144:8 145:12

longer 107:5

longstanding 19:9

look 17:18 19:7

21:18 22:19 24:2

24:15 25:1,18

26:18 28:10,17

29:6 31:13 43:22

47:15 50:9 61:16

68:12 69:6 70:2

73:9 75:10 76:1

88:13,19 91:13

104:16 105:2

looked 25:21 26:1

28:2 41:6 42:4

103:8 105:8 121:4

looking 14:14 38:7

39:1 80:19 95:10

135:3 143:4,5

147:2

looks 12:14 17:20

111:7

lost 12:8

lot 25:21 38:17

44:6 46:5,14,18

49:20 51:5 67:16

68:16 69:3 74:12

85:6 129:5,6

132:6

loud 9:14

low 24:5

lungs 118:19

M

machine 30:19,22

66:3 104:20

119:19

magnitude 135:5

main 100:8,10

major 27:1 61:10

making 8:12 14:6

25:2 71:5 88:3,4

96:20

manage 119:10

Manager 9:6 10:13

10:21 11:13 12:1

59:13

manner 7:7 76:10

115:14

manufacturing-u...

38:6

Margerum 25:21

market 10:12

40:10 42:13 43:9

44:2 46:3 54:9

59:16 80:16

100:14 101:3

marketed 33:9

99:14 112:8,10

128:15

marketing 59:5

113:1,10 114:7

144:12

marketplace 29:18

33:16 34:14 44:15

73:19 79:2 80:15

100:16 131:19

mass 21:18 23:11

mastered 66:18

material 21:8 25:5

28:2 92:16 95:19

98:19,22 114:22

122:19 124:19

132:22 136:18

137:2 138:4

materials 14:12

17:9 22:1 28:12

77:18 109:3

112:20 113:1,10

113:22 114:1

116:4 123:10

matter 13:5,10

54:19 58:9 76:22

79:5 81:14 113:3

134:11 137:15

147:5

maximum 105:5

McKenna 2:10

10:2,5

McNEEL 2:12 4:18

10:9,9 125:12,12

mean 25:12 35:15

47:16 90:16

138:10

meaningful 86:2

means 25:1 49:15

49:21 105:15

133:10

measure 25:16,16

30:6,10,16

measured 105:6

mechanism 26:2

meet 12:18 63:21

123:10

meeting 1:8,18 3:4

6:5 7:5,12,15,21

36:8 82:15 112:16

112:21 129:18,19

134:10 146:6,8,18

Melba 2:6 9:3

141:3 143:13

member 61:21,22

62:1

membranes 118:20

memory 94:17

men 81:8

mention 129:14

mentioned 7:19

22:20 62:13 64:14

65:2 71:19 81:18

110:14 112:14

mentioning 63:9

merits 79:5 116:10

met 82:15

metallurgies 30:21

methods 91:15

metrics 21:15,22

22:20 28:11

Michael 2:10,14

3:13 4:9,16 10:4

10:20

microbial 63:12

microbiocide 43:3

microbiological

12:2 102:2

microorganism

93:18

microorganisms

30:2 76:20 86:14

microphone 9:15

48:11 55:8 63:7

microphones 81:22

middle 144:2

midway 28:19

mild 27:11

mill 14:3 30:4

42:19 43:6 87:19

121:1 123:12

million 25:4 104:21

104:22 105:5

119:14

mills 13:12,13 16:3

17:12 29:20 30:4

32:22 33:21 37:20

41:2 48:7 51:17

86:15 89:12,18

90:1,11 100:2

102:2

mind 13:6,15 14:12

39:4

mindful 84:8 85:22

minimum 63:20

minute 69:10 96:10

135:11

minutes 7:14,15

12:22 48:10 56:9

60:5 81:12 115:22

129:10 139:9,10

146:6

misses 20:2

mix 43:4 64:6,7

118:14 123:2,8

124:1

mixed 16:4 37:18

119:18

mixing 20:5 47:11

118:16 120:1

121:6,12 122:22

123:9 124:6

mixture 119:21

125:10

MLA/Buckman

2:9

moderate 93:15

modest 24:11

moiety 78:6,16

110:17,20

molar 120:3

moment 82:20

83:19

monitor 30:16

43:22

monitored 29:18

monitoring 31:10

31:21 62:12 63:4

63:5,6,9,10 65:3

monochloramine

26:3,21 28:18

29:2,5,10 49:8,19

50:1,4 51:1 77:22

78:8 96:16 111:2

month 18:15

morning 74:16

Morrow 2:6 9:3,3

90:18 115:8 141:4

141:9,19 142:16
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 158

143:1,5,8,11,14

143:16,17

move 6:17,21 56:18

96:10 105:21

115:11

moving 6:18

mucous 118:20

N

Nalco 2:14,14,15

2:15,17 3:15,17

4:12,13 5:18 6:19

10:18,21 11:1,5,8

11:10,13,15,17

13:7,11,18 14:4

15:7,13 16:9 17:8

18:8 19:16,17

22:11 29:21 32:15

32:17 33:9 34:3

34:12 38:2,2 48:3

49:12,22 50:7,7

51:11 58:8,12,13

58:21 59:14 60:5

60:9,9 61:14 66:7

72:18 73:12,20,21

74:12 75:17 76:5

77:2 78:10 79:4,6

79:13 83:7 85:16

86:5,13,15 87:11

88:11 93:2,3

99:11 100:17

103:3,9,14 104:19

114:4 117:3

120:14,19 122:2

123:1,6,7 124:11

124:13 131:22

136:12,13,19

137:3 139:8

140:14 141:17

Nalcon 15:16,18

32:8,10 118:11

119:17

Nalco's 13:21

14:15 18:2,7

29:19 31:5,17

32:3 41:12,20

47:16 53:11 57:5

58:6,7,18 59:4

76:4 77:8 89:8

90:13 95:19 100:2

109:8,15 116:3

117:16 118:6

121:6 122:21

128:18 132:9

136:21 138:5

name 6:7 10:7

names 12:7,8

Naperville 60:13

nasty 45:6

NC2-generated

32:19 127:10

necessarily 49:12

52:1

necessary 71:8

79:3 139:20

need 9:15 17:16

29:6 40:16 68:2

70:11 75:11 76:22

78:19 94:16 106:3

116:1 123:10,18

132:3 138:13

needed 53:21 72:22

76:20 134:15

142:16

needs 13:5 112:2

negligible 26:10

never 20:11 49:14

67:10 70:12,21

71:8 75:9 82:10

111:2

nevertheless 78:1

new 10:13 16:16,21

16:22 17:3 18:3

18:19 19:3 20:15

23:10 32:4 53:19

60:11 67:9 75:12

78:22 80:5 89:13

91:3,4 96:20 97:3

97:4 101:5 109:9

newcomer 82:6

NH2/CL 27:4

NH3Cl 26:7

nice 27:17

nitrogen 74:19

75:19 86:19

nonsense 109:18

non-active 86:20

non-pesticidal

75:18 123:10

normally 34:4

North 12:2

note 30:9 139:21

notes 7:14

notice 133:5

noticed 60:20

notification 45:18

notified 45:21

notion 109:14,19

111:17

novel 19:15 139:21

November 106:12

number 14:4 19:13

24:5,7 84:4 109:5

N-chlorourea

27:21 28:1,8

N-haloureas 27:11

O

objective 18:6

obtained 53:18

obvious 43:15 83:4

obviously 82:11

101:6 114:18

131:17 134:2

occurring 16:3

26:10

occurs 26:7 98:16

oddly 52:2

Office 1:3 2:4,5 6:9

8:21 9:1,1 82:16

139:16

oh 57:21 75:11

143:7

okay 6:3 12:5 35:1

35:15 56:6 57:22

81:3,16 87:5

90:17 93:6,13

94:9 95:6 96:3,8

96:12 97:14

102:14 103:13

105:10,20,22

115:1,4 117:12

119:8 120:10

122:20 129:2,2,17

131:3,8 133:15

135:17 136:10

137:14,18 138:1,9

138:15,19 139:4

140:8,16 141:2,9

143:7,16,18

144:19

once 6:4 7:16 8:4

31:8,17 42:3 82:7

132:22 144:10

145:7

ones 82:2 108:18

onsite 16:2 19:3

62:13 109:6

open 26:22 27:9

74:1,3 129:8

opened 133:1

opening 8:5 145:9

operate 39:13

operating 50:8

60:18

operation 60:10

operational 30:4

operationally 25:1

operations 61:12

OPP 45:3 53:14,18

139:17

opportunity 12:18

72:17 74:4

opposite 45:10

Optimal 120:2

order 3:2 24:12,17

24:22 25:8 33:16

56:8,12

orders 135:5

organic 27:20

76:22 94:3 95:3

organisms 41:20

originally 31:3

130:20

ostensibly 136:21

ought 33:14 77:9

outlined 130:15

outlines 6:15

output 48:6 51:4

outset 55:12 58:5

overall 14:10 95:4

overarching 13:5

overdosage 30:17

overusage 30:18

overview 13:1

oxidant 22:3,4 25:7

27:15 30:17 119:4

oxidants 26:19

oxidation 26:2,17

27:18,20

oxidizing 27:4,7,12

53:4 118:14

142:13

OxiPRO 58:21

59:5,15 60:7 62:5

62:9 64:12 66:8

74:13 75:18 86:13

112:9 122:22

P

pack 50:13

packaging 41:1

page 83:12 92:17

paper 13:12 14:2

29:20 30:21 37:19

41:1 42:19 43:6

48:7 50:2,2 51:17

66:3 86:15 89:12

89:18 90:1,11

102:2 111:19

112:7,10 117:18

119:19 121:1,7

123:11 135:5

papered 134:11

paper/board 85:4

106:18

paralyzed 40:5

parameters 63:22

Pardon 140:21

parent 9:18 22:4

25:7

part 37:20 52:18

53:4 55:9 61:20

68:14 72:5 75:3

95:18 111:5
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 159

112:17 128:16

144:3

participate 74:5

participating 21:13

particular 16:17

26:1 30:17 83:15

85:14 117:21

119:10

particularly 25:20

85:15 91:14

parties 6:16,22 7:8

7:21 55:2 112:22

115:21 129:4

130:19 133:8,19

133:21 134:5

partner 10:5

parts 25:3 75:18

104:21,22 105:5

119:13

pass 29:12 35:21

36:3 57:10,11

69:13 117:15

Passantino 2:17

3:19 11:11,12

59:12,18,22 60:2

65:10,14,16,20,22

114:2,4,6,13

passionate 7:6

patent 17:9 32:18

pathway 26:11,12

26:13

Paul 2:8 9:11 97:19

99:18 100:3

135:11

pay 75:11

penalizing 39:10

people 44:12 62:14

84:4 102:6 103:2

103:3

perceive 114:21

percent 119:5

perfectly 75:22

performance 30:8

69:22 95:5

performed 28:3

period 74:15

130:19 131:5,6

133:2,3,6 134:4

136:3 137:13

permit 54:11

persist 94:5

persistence 95:2

97:1 142:14

persists 96:17

personnel 119:10

122:3

perspective 13:4

36:16 73:11 74:9

102:13 122:17

perversely 39:7

pest 47:5

pesticidal 18:11

42:20,22 43:1,6

67:21 71:3 72:7

86:6 88:8

pesticide 1:3 2:5

6:9 9:2,9 17:16,19

37:17,21 43:8

51:18 68:2,17,20

69:20 71:20,22

72:5 73:5 75:6,16

75:21 76:7 90:10

120:17 121:14

123:9

pesticides 33:10

66:16 67:13 73:3

83:8,9 88:8

petition 38:8 47:8

104:17 105:3

petitions 6:12

pH 47:19 63:2 64:5

75:20 76:9 86:18

123:18

PhD 66:14

Phil 2:4 8:20 115:5

124:7 138:20

photographs 47:9

physical 87:16

92:12 117:20

118:12

pick 20:13 39:1

piece 64:6 110:16

111:4

pieces 59:9

Pitcher 2:13 10:15

10:15

place 103:17

145:10

placed 7:15,20 8:6

plan 68:11 133:4

plant 103:21

109:20

plants 122:9

plate 31:14

plausible 46:12

players 108:1

114:19

plays 111:8

please 7:17 10:19

11:2 55:8 56:17

90:5 92:18 95:8

97:18 115:3

plenty 54:5

plus 23:19

point 20:2 39:2

54:11 56:8,10,12

79:22 95:16 99:2

102:10 105:13

106:11 107:14

109:2 110:15

120:1 123:21

129:3 133:14

136:1

pointed 40:11

95:20 107:2

111:14

points 110:12

115:22

pools 79:17

popular 73:17

pose 83:1 104:6

poses 83:16 99:11

position 21:10 89:7

105:17 106:14

143:10

positive 29:4

possibility 49:16

possible 66:5 98:19

101:12 129:11,13

144:7

potency 29:7

potent 29:5

potential 26:19,20

96:17 99:6 118:10

118:21 127:16

potentially 106:17

Potomac 1:19

power 142:14

PowerPoint 12:14

practice 59:4,5

precautionary 42:7

102:13

precautioning

40:12

precautions 101:7

precedence 107:1

precedent 14:19

59:7 77:11 78:14

80:3 89:15 107:7

107:8,12

precedential 106:2

precise 37:22

precisely 22:14

precursor 13:18

15:21 19:12 32:20

71:17 78:16 109:7

110:13 111:1

122:12 128:10

precursors 16:10

19:4,5 67:16 71:3

preparation 27:22

82:14

prepared 7:1 27:21

presence 71:13

present 2:1 14:8

30:13 49:16 72:5

presentation 3:7,12

3:17 13:3 36:1,18

55:10 56:18,21

57:3,6,16 58:7

77:14 87:9 92:17

93:21 94:7 116:3

122:21 123:6

presentations 6:17

7:9 12:10 58:12

84:21,22 90:20

146:4

presented 137:9

preserve 22:15

President 9:12

presiding 1:22

prestigious 62:1

pretty 47:6,7,9,18

98:21 138:10

prevent 70:1,1

prevented 122:16

previously 8:8 15:6

29:3 67:10 131:14

pre-blended

119:20

primary 14:5 21:19

28:7 31:21 99:20

principal 10:10

principle 28:20

prior 45:18 72:18

119:19 120:1

proactive 62:12

63:4,9

probably 41:17

46:12 81:5 130:18

134:7 141:11

problem 38:12

42:6 77:5 78:17

108:10 117:9

problems 38:17

78:1

procedural 67:5

79:22 133:18

procedures 80:2

132:1

proceed 12:11

58:13

process 14:5 34:16

37:19,20 41:5,13

41:18 42:2,19

43:5 47:11,13,15

47:16,18 48:1

50:9 51:4,17

59:13 63:11 64:9

73:22 76:21 80:7

80:21 88:16 94:6

95:1 101:10 102:1

118:9 119:22

120:17 128:9

130:15 131:11
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 160

132:18 139:13

142:11,15 144:9

145:14,19 146:2

146:12,12

processed 16:5

processes 46:2 48:6

48:15 62:16 63:6

128:17

produce 70:18

119:6 120:22

128:7

produced 90:3

produces 120:16

producing 52:5

product 12:2 17:19

18:12,14,17,18,19

19:12 22:8,9

23:11 24:8 25:5

25:17 29:6 38:6,6

41:21,21 43:18

44:2 46:2 49:13

49:17 51:15 52:22

68:13 72:6,12,13

78:13 79:11 80:4

85:15,19 87:11

88:5 89:2,19,21

90:14 91:3 100:11

105:8 108:19

110:1 112:7,8

113:2 116:7,12,14

116:17,19 118:3,7

118:16 119:17

120:21 125:7,10

125:14,19 126:22

127:1,5,10,14

128:3,4 136:21

production 39:14

39:18 43:20

products 13:10,12

13:17,19,20,22

14:6,8,11,15

15:12,15,16 16:15

17:2,10,12 18:2,7

19:10 20:1 23:21

29:17,19,21,22

30:5 32:3,21,22

33:9,18 34:2,7,15

39:8,9 44:9 46:21

50:2 53:1 67:3,9

67:18 68:17,20

69:9 70:5 75:10

77:18 78:20 83:5

83:18,22 84:18

85:3,15 86:4,5

99:11,13 100:2,13

100:18 101:18

106:3,18 107:16

109:15 113:1,7,11

113:16,19 114:20

117:5 121:20

124:17,19 126:5

127:2,7,8 128:6

128:10,14,18

131:21,22 132:10

profile 27:13

program 10:21

31:11,12,16 44:6

45:2 64:21 68:2

73:5

programs 1:3 2:5

6:10 9:2 30:8

31:7 94:5

prohibit 20:5 34:1

121:12

prolong 92:11

promoting 117:3

prompt 131:16

properly 133:8

properties 15:1

propose 41:6

proprietary 64:6

protect 33:16 41:7

105:18

protecting 44:5

protection 1:1 40:8

84:13

proud 60:22 61:5,7

61:17,18,19

provide 13:1 20:20

65:4 72:19 74:3

88:15 94:6 112:15

112:18 121:6

130:16 133:20

142:13

provided 6:11

72:16

provides 59:1

providing 17:1

63:16 142:10

public 72:18,20

74:3 80:8,21

105:18 130:22

131:5 133:2,2

134:3 136:2 138:2

138:5 146:9,11

publication 58:14

72:15

publications

144:12

publicly 17:8

publicly-traded

60:11

pulling 103:4

pulp 13:11 41:1

42:19 43:5 48:7

51:17 85:4 86:14

89:12,18,22 90:10

106:18 111:19

112:6,10 117:18

121:1,7

punch 27:14

purchase 126:9,12

purification 28:2

purpose 17:18

29:22 30:1 43:15

71:3 93:21

pursue 15:12 34:11

push 64:8 104:1

put 17:7 50:1 57:5

59:9 79:9 103:5

111:18 117:1

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-...

6:1

p.m 1:18 6:2 81:14

81:15 147:5

Q

qualify 110:2

question 15:4 18:1

49:6 57:8 65:8

68:12 76:15 77:15

83:5,11 84:15,19

86:9 87:22 92:15

98:15 99:6 103:14

103:17 110:10

112:4 114:3

120:18 121:10

122:17 124:2,4

126:2,16 130:17

132:7,14 133:17

137:17 139:13,13

140:18 141:10

questioning 106:1

questions 3:22 4:2

5:6 6:21,22 7:2

8:2 42:15 52:16

81:19 82:18 83:1

83:16,19 85:13

93:2 102:5 115:10

115:12,20 120:13

124:15 129:9,11

129:20,22 130:1,5

130:13 132:12

136:16 137:21

139:9 140:14

141:1,3

quick 93:15,15

112:4 124:15

126:2

quickly 33:6

129:12

quite 36:13 39:2

45:10 46:22 47:1

90:19 99:22

quo 55:1

quote 26:4 27:1

R

raise 57:8

raised 6:12 67:3

101:6 104:15

raising 73:18

ran 141:12

range 67:9

ranking 37:13

rate 104:20 105:7

rates 93:12 94:1

100:22

ratio 25:4 120:3

rationales 40:7

ratios 100:22

Raymond 2:8 9:11

9:11 97:12,14,19

97:20 98:6 99:18

100:6 101:15,20

102:11,15 135:16

RD 111:9

react 16:20 48:20

49:7 75:5,8 91:21

142:9

reactant 16:1 23:2

23:2

reacted 16:7,15,19

22:3,13 109:7

116:8 128:7

reaction 16:21

21:10,14 22:7,10

22:14,21 23:5

24:21 26:15 49:4

49:9,11,22 69:18

75:10 77:17 78:20

87:17 88:20 90:22

91:2,3 92:13

98:16 109:20

reactions 16:3

23:18 24:2 111:12

130:1

reactive 24:6

reactivity 21:12

22:21 23:4,12

25:19 27:13 96:19

reacts 15:19 23:13

50:5 51:1 98:13

98:17,20

read 53:8 117:19

118:1 121:14

ready 6:4 55:15

58:3

real 48:1 62:17

63:5,5 113:13

reality 17:11

really 9:14 24:7

29:6 39:2,3 42:14

45:10,14 48:13

54:18 58:22 60:6
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 161

62:8 63:20 66:2,3

66:18 68:2 70:11

73:4,15 74:9 77:9

79:21 84:12,15

85:13 97:22

102:12 103:10,11

111:20 115:20

real-time 63:10

65:4

reason 46:12 53:3

73:18 100:8,10

111:21

reasonable 54:3

reasons 16:13

19:21 99:20

131:13

rebuttal 134:20

receipt 72:15

receive 146:7

received 6:13

145:11

receiving 112:22

recognition 128:6

recognize 73:12

84:3

recognized 61:20

76:13

recognizing 125:18

recommend 104:20

reconsider 67:7

record 36:12,13,20

36:22 37:1 52:13

53:9 60:22 61:6

81:14 90:16

108:22 116:11

117:1 122:2 125:4

133:22 137:3

143:10 147:5

recorded 7:13,19

recordkeeping

43:16

redacted 136:19

redox 26:18,20

96:16

reduce 61:11 90:11

reducing 44:22

reevaluating

106:13

refer 65:12,15

references 27:16

116:4

referred 84:22

reform 22:10

reforms 22:12

refrain 7:17

refresh 94:16

refutes 14:9

regard 106:14

108:4 136:17

regarded 88:6

regarding 59:4

129:20 130:1

139:18

regardless 71:2

regeneration 26:13

regime 66:19 76:5

register 19:12 20:9

54:5 69:4 70:11

70:16 71:9 84:18

84:18 111:1,4

133:5 145:8

registered 13:17,18

13:22 14:1 31:15

37:22 38:5 39:8

41:11 44:3,8,17

45:11 46:15 47:4

48:8 53:1,17

54:13,15,22 55:2

67:2 69:7 70:5,19

71:16,21 74:20

76:7,10,14,17

78:6,9,10 79:10

83:10 86:17 87:3

89:10,17,19

100:16,20 104:2

105:9 107:3,17

110:18,21 113:5,8

113:15 117:17

118:3 120:18,20

120:21 121:5,10

121:17 122:7,11

122:19 124:17

126:5,10,13,21

127:1,8,17,17

131:20

registering 14:19

18:12,16 53:14

78:12,15 107:6,7

107:11

registers 70:3

registrant 9:8

registrants 39:10

44:11

registration 18:13

18:21 19:19 33:11

33:19 34:3 43:19

51:19,21 53:2

67:18 68:7 69:6

70:15 71:14,20

72:18 74:18 76:13

79:11,19 80:1,9

80:18 85:3 89:13

105:3,14 106:3,4

108:6,18 109:8,10

109:11 117:4,5

118:9 122:14

128:2,17 139:17

registrations 38:13

67:7 69:8 72:9

128:5

regularly 76:3

regulate 43:22

53:22 68:5 107:21

regulated 40:14,15

44:13 109:12

regulating 19:2

40:7 42:5

regulation 39:5

42:9,17 43:20

44:3 69:1 72:11

83:15,21

regulations 83:14

regulatory 2:3,6

8:18 9:6,22 17:15

44:6 67:4,22

73:14 83:17 88:15

reiterate 58:5

reiterated 68:9

relate 85:13

related 84:20

relation 68:9

relative 82:6

release 118:18

released 99:1

rely 19:19

relying 117:9

remains 137:8

remarks 13:1

remember 7:17

remove 33:15

101:8

rep 75:3

repeat 10:19 11:2

report 39:18,19

103:1

reporting 43:17

representation

56:1

representatives

83:1 86:9

represented 13:16

97:22 133:19

representing 2:10

84:5

reprocess 145:22

reps 65:5

reputation 44:20

request 15:11

33:13 67:6 112:14

116:17

requested 15:9

131:18

requests 58:13

require 33:10 34:5

45:18 69:5 70:20

71:19 74:18 76:12

79:19

required 22:15

34:5 40:13,18

63:21 70:14,15,17

71:21 72:14 73:3

80:9 108:6,18

120:7 126:9

requirement

105:17

requires 18:20

20:18 46:5

Research 11:9,21

residues 27:19

40:22

respect 27:8 28:3

44:16 45:1,6

58:17 110:13

122:7,10

respectful 7:7

respectfully 15:10

33:13

respond 99:10

104:7 108:14,22

116:9 133:21

134:8,20 142:4

143:4

response 4:10,12

4:15,17,19,21,22

68:11 87:8 100:5

responses 8:1 86:2

responsibility

122:1

responsible 40:1

rest 8:12 13:3

restart 80:7

restricted 73:6

restroom 81:8

result 28:6 34:19

111:13 134:10

resulted 73:15

results 26:6 30:18

69:18 87:1

resumed 81:15

returning 122:21

reverse 107:13

reversion 22:4,14

23:2

revert 22:9

review 29:16 59:3

68:10 105:15

133:3

reviewed 20:12

reviewing 128:2

re-registration

68:10

rhetorical 124:2

Rice 2:15 11:9,9

93:3,11,20 94:13

94:21 142:5,5
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 162

right 12:9 19:20,21

35:1 39:14,20

72:8 96:7 114:1

114:14,14 115:4

129:2 131:4

141:17

righthand 24:8

25:5

ring 111:18

rinse 76:6,18

risk 34:13 42:3

99:12 102:9

risks 33:22 40:20

40:21 99:8 102:10

103:15 104:4,5

105:15

Robert 2:12 4:19

10:11

role 111:7

roof 25:11

room 6:16 107:16

108:1 130:20

Ross 2:4 8:20,20

10:19 11:2,6

35:16,20 36:4

55:9 57:4,10,15

57:19 58:1,3 65:7

65:11,15,17,21

89:1 92:14 93:6

93:13 94:9,15

95:6,11,15,21

96:3,7 97:4 98:5

110:9 112:13

113:17,20 114:5

114:11,14 115:5,8

120:9 124:8,11

128:21 129:14,17

131:4,10 132:17

134:6 135:4,12

136:8,10,13 137:5

137:16,20 138:1,7

138:12,17 139:2,5

139:8,14,19 140:8

140:17,21 141:1

144:15,18 145:3

145:19

roughly 62:2

rules 7:4 8:15

run 14:12 16:12

66:3

running 139:6

R&D 65:6

S

safeners 75:6 92:2

safety 37:13 88:15

100:1,11 103:1

105:18 117:2

118:10 122:1

sale 34:2 38:9

53:16 54:4,6,12

54:14,21 106:16

sales 15:11 18:21

45:19 46:1 52:2

104:17

salt 69:20 111:15

salts 20:6

sample 103:4

sat 40:2

saves 36:6

saying 26:15 36:10

36:12 65:19 78:19

80:16 88:17 94:10

141:22 142:6

says 17:17 41:20

50:7,10 93:7

106:13 123:15

124:20

schizophrenic

38:12

science 44:21

scientific 48:13

49:3

scientist 10:10

11:10

scope 67:8,15

scratching 40:2

screens 12:15

second 20:3 52:14

55:18 57:12,18,19

63:8 84:1,15

111:6

Secondly 31:13

118:1

seconds 135:12,15

section 42:16 43:9

83:13 92:9 117:20

118:12 119:2

see 29:7 31:8,19

38:19 52:3 64:3

65:17 69:6,7

81:11 83:11,20

90:13 96:21 108:3

108:8 124:2

127:11,15 128:2

144:12

seen 37:8,8 64:1

136:20

selections 63:17

selective 27:12,18

sell 18:17 34:6

38:15 126:7

131:22

seller 17:21

selling 15:7

Senior 11:20

sense 44:7 54:10

102:12 132:15

separate 27:22

32:6 69:13 94:11

separately 68:21

70:7 77:7,16

separately-added

67:3,14 68:5,22

71:2 74:19 75:12

77:6 78:21 79:14

79:18 103:20

September 104:17

series 82:18

serious 58:9

seriousness 37:13

serves 43:15 76:19

service 61:3 62:15

65:5

Services 59:14

set 44:7 45:11

52:14 60:6 62:4,8

82:20 84:3 132:17

146:18

Seth 2:19 3:16,18

4:12 5:22 11:16

60:3

setting 14:3 35:7

39:7 96:18

share 14:21 82:3

117:7

shared 15:6

shed 134:19

shop 81:7

short 6:20 103:16

shortly 37:1

show 17:11 22:18

30:4 50:17

shower 104:22

showing 50:12

shown 19:14 27:16

shows 18:7 29:17

31:1 49:18 52:21

side 21:22 24:6,6,8

24:9 25:6 28:12

28:14 111:11

sight 38:19

significance 106:2

significant 39:11

46:17 67:4 136:18

significantly 26:21

Silberberg 2:7 9:5

9:5

Sill 2:15 11:7,7

silo 104:20

similar 46:22 47:1

47:5,6,7,18 72:1

87:16 114:20

Similarly 41:8

simple 116:2

simply 19:19 22:18

76:18 77:3 84:4

85:8 92:4,7,10

101:11 110:19

111:6

singing 65:8

single 73:6

singular 30:1

sir 55:21 56:19

sit 140:22

site 38:11

sites 31:3 47:2

104:19

situ 14:20 19:13

22:10 26:14

situation 20:10

34:10 40:1 79:3

80:10,14 118:21

127:7,12

situations 85:12

108:17

slide 17:7 19:14

64:2 93:21 94:7

95:10 98:1 122:21

slides 35:6,8 52:11

53:6 57:5 58:6,9

58:10

slightly 37:2 47:22

slime 37:21 47:3

90:11

smell 103:6,7

smoking 103:10

104:9

sodium 13:22

15:18,19 22:11

28:4 32:4,10

47:12 62:20 64:4

71:17 76:7 86:17

87:3 89:10 104:3

107:2 110:14

117:17 119:5

120:16,18,20

121:11,17 122:11

126:4,10,13 127:1

sold 13:10 32:22

76:3 83:6 85:16

100:15

solely 106:15 112:8

solution 16:4 20:8

102:1

solutions 64:20

solved 42:7

soon 51:10

sooner 112:18

sorry 35:11 55:21

65:7 97:17,19

101:15,17 123:5

125:1 139:4 143:8

sort 48:12 65:18

66:18 96:9 104:8
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 163

104:8 124:2

sought 112:2

sounds 102:4

source 71:14 75:19

78:4,5,9 86:19

89:20 98:2 104:2

119:18,21

sources 74:19

121:10

South 1:19

speak 86:7,8 106:7

141:7,9

speaker 59:11

66:14

speaking 48:19

66:21 98:12

Special 9:3

species 27:15 30:11

102:3

specific 13:7 21:11

26:1 27:16 28:17

37:17 83:18 85:1

85:14 90:12

102:16 109:15

119:9 120:5,7

specifically 118:4

119:8 133:12

specify 133:4

137:11

spectrum 12:4 31:4

31:15 76:2 77:13

118:2 119:3,6,7

127:4

speedy 147:2

spend 14:17 48:9

60:4,7

spent 87:11

spoke 145:17

sprinkled 27:10

stabilization 52:7

93:22 111:13

120:2

stabilize 16:11,19

32:12

stabilized 94:12,14

94:15,19

stabilizer 14:7 21:5

21:8,17 22:2 23:1

23:20 24:10 25:9

50:16,17 63:3

64:7 65:11,18

70:18 71:9 76:8

76:18 94:2,3

119:18,20 120:2

stabilizers 15:2

22:1 28:13 67:15

67:19 70:8 75:6

79:15 91:22

106:14 142:7,13

stable 49:20 111:16

stage 60:6 62:8

stakeholders

111:22

stakes 84:7

standard 43:19

standpoint 61:6

63:12

start 25:18 35:2

36:10 80:19 85:22

94:17 115:15

started 12:16 28:10

53:2 81:17 145:13

starting 6:17 56:20

109:10

state 72:10 76:13

119:17

statement 38:1

79:14 125:3

134:16

statements 40:12

40:13

states 66:20 69:3,4

70:3 76:12 118:16

119:2,12 125:20

status 14:11 22:15

55:1 85:3,18

statute 72:10

stay 50:4

stays 50:3

stenographer 7:14

step 33:14

Steptoe 10:17 11:4

11:15,17 95:14

124:12 136:14

Steptoe/Nalco 2:13

2:18,19

Steve 2:14 10:7,22

stewardship

100:11

sticking 123:18

stipulated 126:12

Stock 60:11 62:3

stop 15:11 53:3

54:6,21 114:16

stopped 53:2 54:14

stops 49:9

strangely 64:2

Strategic 11:12

59:12

Strategy 122:22

streams 50:2

119:22

stricter 43:12

strokes 22:19

strong 15:12

118:14 123:17

strongly 111:21

Stu 59:14,17

Stuart 2:17 3:19

11:11 59:11,12

114:4

stuff 132:19

subject 68:6 69:1

89:9 106:9

submission 136:18

submissions 36:19

56:12 124:19

134:14

submit 7:22 77:19

114:7 115:3

116:18 134:18

145:1,5,15

submits 58:16

submittals 15:10

32:16 33:12

submitted 138:4

146:3

Subsection 90:8

subset 73:3

substance 40:7

58:17 90:9 94:11

substances 85:9

substantial 46:5

substantiate

138:16

substantiation

138:14

substantive 67:5

substitute 36:18

substrates 23:14

subsumed 131:5

subtle 94:8 95:2

suburbs 60:12

successful 60:8

62:6 64:12 66:8

73:20

suffering 44:12

sufficient 19:18

88:14 117:4 120:1

suggesting 138:21

suggestions 139:21

139:22

suggests 50:21

116:12

suit 46:3

suitable 121:20

sulfate 13:19 15:17

15:22 16:10,18

17:4,5 18:10,18

20:13 22:13 24:13

31:6,18 32:3,21

69:11,12,14 70:5

109:21 111:7

118:7 124:20

125:15,16,21,22

128:13

sum 144:11

summarize 32:2

summarized 33:6

summarizes 146:15

summary 146:5,5

summit 143:20

supersedes 130:18

supplemental

135:2

supplier 126:14

supplies 34:3

103:22

supporting 8:1

72:16 83:14

134:17

supposed 38:22

sure 41:15 46:15

65:10 88:6 92:19

95:13 96:6 98:6

100:6,6 106:10

114:5 129:16

139:14 141:7

144:3,4 146:10

surprised 100:19

surprises 48:1

surrounding 66:19

sustainability

61:22 62:3 73:13

sustainable 111:20

sweet 37:11

swimming 79:17

synergists 75:7

synthesis 28:1

system 21:11 22:17

23:11,14 25:7

49:20 50:1 52:19

53:5,8,12 58:21

59:6,16 66:3

74:14 75:18 76:4

76:5 77:3,4,4 78:7

86:13,18,21,22

87:21 88:3,5,21

96:20 104:2

110:18 112:9

119:7,11

systems 21:20 32:1

47:6 59:2 78:3,16

97:22 107:10

110:14,16

T

table 28:9 82:20

84:3 138:18

tagline 60:20

take 6:20 12:22

20:12 37:2,11

54:16 56:9 63:15

64:4,21 65:3,5

73:9 80:15 81:3
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 164

82:19 115:21

116:3 126:7 132:3

taken 51:20 75:10

talk 16:17 21:4,6

29:13 37:4 48:10

48:17 52:3 53:6

58:20 59:8 67:11

69:10 84:2,20

85:7 140:11

talked 82:15

116:16 134:13

talking 12:20 13:9

13:20 14:17,18

15:15 20:15 22:7

23:18 56:14 82:21

93:8 110:3 113:3

113:4

tank 76:6,18 123:2

123:8,22 124:4

task 79:1

Taub 2:13 4:14

5:20 10:17,17

11:4,4 95:9,13,13

95:16 96:1,5

124:12,12 125:5

126:2,15 136:14

136:14 137:14,18

137:22 138:2,9,15

138:19 139:11

technical 14:22

15:2 16:12 20:20

22:17 26:22 33:5

62:14,15 63:14

65:5 95:8

technologies 9:13

10:13 31:18 61:4

62:18 87:12,14

108:5,6

technology 9:9

12:4 31:5 37:9

58:22 60:7 61:13

66:10 73:14 74:22

85:10 107:10,22

tedious 144:8

tell 17:16 53:18

84:9 123:2

telling 56:8

temporarily 38:9

temporary 38:19

43:10

tending 24:5,7

tends 27:17

term 65:13 90:18

90:21 92:3 94:10

123:3

termed 91:21 92:1

terminology 15:20

92:20

terms 23:4,6,10,12

86:5,15 107:1

134:14 138:2

tests 18:6

text 83:15,17

thank 11:6 12:12

12:17 21:2 29:15

34:22 55:4,5

56:19,22 58:1

65:21 67:1 73:7

80:22 81:1,11

82:4 87:7 88:22

98:9 99:16 100:6

108:2 110:11

115:6,7,7,8,16

117:12 120:9

124:9 126:15

128:19,21,22

135:8,17,18

137:18 139:11

146:17,19,21

147:3

thanks 34:21 35:8

35:8 36:7 60:3

87:5 90:17 105:10

120:12 124:8

theirs 96:1

theories 50:8 130:3

theory 41:12,16,16

thermodynamica...

27:4

thing 26:4 35:17

80:6 83:3 95:10

111:6 116:22

127:22 134:7

things 12:19 13:14

34:13 39:1,21,22

43:21 45:5,17

46:18 47:10 69:16

125:11 130:3

131:18 132:4

134:4 142:1

think 6:4 9:15 12:6

12:18 20:16,17

33:14 34:18,19

39:3 40:3 44:22

46:19,20 50:20

51:1,11 62:7

73:10 77:19 84:12

86:11 105:13

109:9,13,14 110:4

111:20 112:18,20

115:9,13 116:1,19

121:9 122:16

129:2,4 130:17

135:10,16 139:5

143:19 146:15

thinking 39:5

82:22 129:21

144:3

thinks 58:8

third 20:8 84:19

90:2

THOMAS 2:12

thought 73:22

134:19 146:1

thoughts 103:13

106:8

threat 42:2

three 13:15,16

19:21 23:17 62:7

62:19 64:13 87:14

87:18 104:5 107:9

117:16 130:19

139:9 142:1

threshold 83:4

thrust 84:12

ties 12:7

tie-up 70:1

time 7:8,9 8:9

12:21 14:17 31:19

35:1,2,17 36:6

37:11 39:16,16,17

40:15 46:5 48:22

49:21 50:5 52:22

54:5,6,11,17

56:15 60:7 71:12

74:17 79:10 82:7

82:9 85:7 86:1

87:11 89:16 99:4

109:4 133:6 139:6

141:12 146:14

timeframe 132:16

133:11

timely 72:17

times 29:5

timing 57:5

tip 106:6

today 12:18,20

13:8,16,20 14:9

15:21 22:7 33:6

33:13 36:12 51:8

58:20 65:13 76:3

80:10 116:4,7

120:14 130:2,14

131:14 133:13,20

137:9,17 146:5,6

146:8

today's 77:14

134:10 143:20

told 18:9

Tom 2:9 4:18 9:20

10:9 125:12

tool 27:17 31:10

tools 31:21 62:12

63:4,9,15 65:3

top 36:22,22 50:11

50:14

topic 7:6

total 25:4 30:6 31:2

31:9 104:21 105:1

105:6 125:20

totally 110:3

touch 61:9

touched 61:14

63:13

touching 60:15

toxic 41:19

toxicological

102:20

track 60:22 61:5

transcript 146:8

transfer 26:2,7,9

transparencies

7:12

transparent 73:22

treat 18:10

treated 32:1 50:3

83:8 85:18,20

treatment 64:21

75:2 79:18

trend 31:1 107:14

trends 31:9,14

trial 104:18

tried 19:17 75:11

101:10

true 97:6 125:15

128:18

trust 45:1

try 105:21 110:5

129:10

trying 12:6 37:9

40:3 45:8 125:5

146:18

tryptophan 27:18

TUESDAY 1:13

tune 96:19

turn 20:19 48:10

66:11 81:20 86:9

92:17 117:6

twice 105:7

two 13:16 14:11,15

15:7,16 16:14

17:2,9 18:2,7

19:10 20:1 28:12

29:19 31:21 33:8

33:15 34:5 40:4

50:8 51:3 54:4

57:13 69:13 78:1

82:20 89:17 93:14

97:22 98:7 108:9

109:15 117:8

119:6 126:7 127:7

127:7 129:15

131:20 132:9

140:11

type 22:13 94:2
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 165

types 72:20 93:5

typical 24:10 25:3

28:22 37:6 40:7

76:18

typically 43:21

45:3 91:2 119:5

tyrosine 27:19

U

unable 40:5

uncertain 33:22

105:16

undergoes 26:3

undermining 44:15

underscore 20:21

understand 85:16

88:11,12,18 98:7

108:13 112:11

124:18 125:6

135:7 137:16

understanding

33:7 64:22 82:22

116:15,20 125:8

125:10 126:20

understands 88:12

understood 96:6

106:19 123:3

undoubtedly 73:17

unfairly 55:2

unique 98:8 101:4

101:5

uniquely 105:16

unknown 101:11

unlawful 55:1

unmatched 60:16

unnecessary 47:21

unprecedented

19:15

unregistered 15:7

15:16 31:6,7,17

33:15 38:10,15

39:9 40:9 41:12

42:13 43:7,15

44:8,11 45:11

46:16 47:3 52:18

53:17,22 54:7,12

54:15,22 113:5,15

116:12 118:6

122:8 127:20

132:9

unregulated 37:12

54:4

unresolved 8:10

unstable 122:13

urea 6:6 13:19 14:1

15:19 16:1,10,18

17:5,6 18:19

20:13 23:20 28:5

31:7,18 32:3,11

32:21 75:19 85:15

97:5 98:4 103:19

106:17 107:7

110:19 113:4

116:4,8,12 121:7

141:20

ureas 97:7

use 14:1 15:3 21:7

21:16 28:22 29:19

29:20,21 30:3,4

33:8 34:8 37:22

38:11 40:14 41:21

42:20,21 43:4,7

47:2,5 51:16 52:4

54:6 63:2,20 70:6

70:7,9,10,20 72:1

73:16 77:12 86:22

89:11,18,19 99:11

103:18 104:20

105:4 106:17

107:3 117:18

119:1,9,16 120:6

120:6,15,22

121:12,13,21

122:7,18 126:21

127:3,9,16,19

128:12

user 121:17

users 47:1 112:1

122:1

uses 15:17 18:14,19

38:16 44:3 47:1

48:3,4 53:17 54:8

54:9,12,16 55:1

77:13 78:11

103:22 104:2

121:7

UV 123:19

V

variable 91:19

variety 92:3

various 6:14 21:15

21:21 22:20 23:13

24:2,4,15 26:19

27:10 28:11

varying 91:7

142:13

versions 91:13

versus 86:5 95:3

veteran 82:6

vetted 128:16

view 48:13,14 49:1

49:2 51:6,7,15

52:8,8 56:7 58:6

58:18 77:8 86:12

123:7

viewpoints 58:19

views 51:4

violates 15:8 43:9

43:11

violation 72:10

Virginia 1:21

virtually 28:13

74:21 102:19

voice 9:15

voicing 102:5

W

wait 35:16 55:17

139:2

waiting 34:16

want 16:6 35:5

36:9,15 54:8,16

62:6 66:2,3 79:21

84:2,19 88:6 99:4

113:12,13,21,22

114:1 116:13

123:15,16 130:14

133:8,12 134:20

135:11 137:12

138:3,22 143:2,3

wanted 12:17 96:5

97:21 111:1

116:22 124:15

134:15,17

warning 40:12

wasn't 79:9 143:5

water 9:12 16:5

18:10 20:5 23:20

37:19 41:22 42:19

43:5 51:17 59:13

60:21 61:12 64:8

69:16 70:9,14,16

71:7 74:22 75:1,2

77:12 79:17,17

88:21 89:11 90:1

92:1 101:11 102:1

103:22 104:22

105:6 106:22

107:4 109:16

118:15 119:22

122:8 125:15

139:16

waters 119:19

way 16:7,8 18:22

30:5 37:17 47:20

48:2,3 85:18

94:21 95:8 101:21

109:12,22 110:22

111:17 115:5

121:14

ways 50:8

weaker 27:4

webcasting 35:12

websites 144:13

weeds 123:16

weeks 82:13

weight 24:15

welcome 3:2 6:5

65:22

well-aware 71:10

well-established

18:5 19:1

well-known 69:12

well-trained 62:15

63:14

went 38:10 40:6

81:14 147:5

weren't 132:12

western 60:12

wet-end 30:18

We're 128:19

wide 43:3 92:3

widely-used 103:19

wish 57:9 115:14

145:1

withdraw 80:17

women 81:9

wondered 124:21

136:22

Woods 2:8 9:14,16

word 103:9

words 21:13 25:7

27:5 28:7 130:21

work 9:1 22:22

25:20 26:5 42:16

67:17 68:11 75:16

75:22 82:2,7

100:1 103:3 144:6

worked 66:15,16

worker 103:6,9

workers 103:4

working 90:20

works 17:14 47:11

wreak 109:16

write 12:7 23:22

writing 7:3

written 24:22

25:12 49:4 124:18

wrong 82:11

X

XD3899 12:4 31:4

31:15 118:2 119:2

119:3,6,7 127:4

Y

Yards 1:19

year 61:12

years 19:11 31:20

40:4 42:14 53:14

54:4 59:15 60:10

61:8 62:1 63:1

yielding 23:20

York 60:11 80:5

Z
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 166

zero 25:141 1 2:4,6 8:18 26:10

90:8 119:4 120:3

120:4,4 122:21

1:00 1:18

1:04 6:2

10 24:18,22 104:22

119:13

10,000 24:12

100 29:4

11,000 60:14

115 4:2,4,5

117 4:6

12 3:7,8 43:9 58:9

104:21

12.5 119:5

120 4:8,9,10

121 4:12

1215 105:3 126:7

122 4:9

123 4:9,12

124 4:13,14,15

125 4:14,17

126 4:19,21

127 4:22

129 5:6

13th 24:18

130 5:9,11 60:18

134th 24:22

135 5:13,15

136 5:18,20

139 5:22

141 3:22

15 58:10 135:15

15-minute 81:3

152 90:8

152.15 42:16 83:14

153.125(a)(2) 92:9

16 1:14

17 58:9,11 59:14

18 58:10 92:17

106:12

2

2 120:4 122:21

2:25 81:14

2:42 81:15

20 135:12

2000 74:14

2003 109:10

2008 38:21 47:17

53:20,22 82:8

104:17

2009 106:12

2010 1:14

21 3:9 58:10

22 58:10

23 58:10

24 58:10

24/7 63:5,10 65:4

25 19:11 29:4 56:9

58:11

250 25:10

250-fold 29:1

2777 1:19

2800 62:2

29 3:10

3

3 119:13 122:22

3:47 147:5

30 7:22 8:4,10

112:16 130:17,21

132:20 133:18

136:5 137:12

144:21 145:2,5

146:11

30-day 136:2

300 121:4

317 62:4

33 3:8

35 3:12,13

36 70:4

3899 127:13 4 4 85:13 122:22

40 92:8

48 3:14

5

5 85:13 105:5

51 3:13

55 3:15,16

58 3:17,18

59 3:19

6

6 3:2

6(a)(2) 39:18 43:17

60 136:5

60-day 130:19

146:11

60615 15:18 32:10

60620 15:17 32:8

52:4 53:3 119:17

60735 118:11

6615 98:3 101:2

6620 98:2 100:18

67 3:21

7

7 3:4

7,000 60:14 62:14

62:14

70,000 60:17

73 3:18

8

8 3:6

80 60:10

81 3:22