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### U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + + NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING FOR CERTIFICATION, COMPLIANCE, AND ENFORCEMENT + + + + + PUBLIC MEETING + + + + + THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 30, 2010 + + + + + The Public Meeting convened in the Large Auditorium in the Forrestal Building, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Facilitator, presiding. PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator MIKE AGRONIN, D&R International KARIM AMRANE, Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute ERIC ANDERSEN, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory VINCENT ANDERSON, Whirlpool TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice DALE BASSO, WEG Electric Corp. JEFF BAUMAN, Continental Refrigerator DALE BENNET, Carrier Corporation ROBERT BOTELER, Emerson Motor Technologies BILL BROWN, General Electric DEBRA BRUNK, Navigant Consulting MILTON BUSH, American Council of Independent Laboratories CHRISTOPHER K. CARR C2E2 Strategies, LLC NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com2 

### PRESENT (CONT.) CHRISTINE CHANG, National Resources Defense Council KELLY-ANN CHISHOLM, Natural Resources Canada JENNIFER CLEARY, Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers (AHAM) STEVE COMBS, International Cold Storage KEITH COOK, Philips GREG COULTER, Prolec General Electric ELLIS CRAIG, Craig Industries DANIEL CRONIN, ICF International PAUL DANA, A.O. Smith Water Products Company JOHN DAIVS, Traulsen RONALD O. BAUBACH, Sylvania ANDREW deLASKI, Appliance Standards Awareness Project PETE DeMARCO, International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials (IAPMO) MARY ANN DICKINSON, Alliance for Water Efficiency PAUL DOPPEL, Mitsubishi Electric MARK DUFFY, General Electric Lighting JAMES MICHAEL EDWARDS, BSH Home Appliances DARYL ERBS, Manitowoc Ice BARBARA FABIAN, Owens Corning JOHN FICHERA, Osram Sylvania JESSICA FREND, Steptoe & Johnson JEFFERY GREENBLATT, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory DEREK GREENAUER, D&R International DAVID BEN GRIFE, Arctic Industries CHARLES GROSS, IAPMO CHARLES HON, True Manufacturing Inc. DIANE JAKOBS, Rheem CHRISTOPHER JOHNSON, LG Electrics BARRY KALIAN, Underwriters Laboratory CLAIRE KAMMER, Underwriters Laboratory BOB KELLER, Nanopore Insulation, LLC MILEN KIRILOV, Carpenter Co. KELLEY KLINE, General Electric Appliances and Lighting STEVE KOUSKI, Carpenter Co. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com3 

### PRESENT (CONT.) FRANK LADONNE, Underwriters Laboratory HARMON LEWIS, American Panel Corporation JOHN MALINOWSKI, Baldor Electric Company DAN MANOLE, Ingersoll Rand JOSEPH MATTINGLY, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness Project MARK MENZER, Intertek FRED MINELLI, Kysor Panel Systems ANDREW MOORE, Mitsubishi JUSTIN NEUMANN, NEMA JEFF NICHOLS, Johnson Controls, Inc. MICHAEL PERRODIN, Hill Phoenix Watkins SALLY REMEDIOS, Delta Faucet Company R. DOUGLAS ROBERTS, ThermoCor CHUCK SAMUELS, Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers (AHAM) TIM SCHUMANN, SEW Eurodrive SRIRAM SOMASUNDARAM, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory FRANK STANONIK, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) MANFRED STAEBLER, BSH Home Appliance Corporation CHARLIE STEPHENS, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance JOAN STERLING, Intertek Testing Services NA BILL STOMPF, Bally Refrigerated Boxes CHRIS STONE, Clasp JACOB TALBOT, ACEEE JOHN TALBOT BILL TRITSIS, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) JEFF VAN SLOUN, Owens Corning JIM VERSHAW, Ingersoll Rand SETH VOYLES, Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association (HPBA) GREGORY WAGNER, Morrison Products, Inc. KIMBERLY WAGONER, ERG ROBERT WILBUR, North American Association of Food Equipment Manufacturers (NAFEM) NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com4 

### PRESENT (CONT.) JIM WISEMAN, Schneider Electric DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY STAFF ASHLEY ARMSTRONG LAURA BARHYDT TIMOTHY LYNCH MICHAEL McCABE STEPHANIE WEINER

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com5 

### T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S Welcome - Energy-Efficiency and Renewable .. 6 Energy and Office of the General Counsel Attendee Introductions and Agenda Review .. 15 Doug Brookman Introduction - Ashley Armstrong and ....... 20 Laura Barhydt Brief Opening Remarks from Interested .... 22 Parties - Doug Brookman Scope, Reorganization of DOE's Existing .. 54 CCE Regulations, Applying DOE's Existing CCE Regulations to Other Covered Products, and Basic Model Provisions - Ashley Armstrong and Laura Barhydt Certification, Enforcement Testing, ...... 149 Adjudications, Verification Testing, Additional Product-Specific Discussion, and Issues for which DOE Seeks Comments Ashley Armstrong and Laura Barhydt Closing Remarks and Questions from ...... 331 Interested Parties - Doug Brookman Next Steps and Closing ................... 342 Ashley Armstrong Adjourn

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com6

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### P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 

### 9:06 a.m. 3 

### WELCOME 4 

### MR. McCABE: Let's get started. 5 

### Given the weather and the number of people and 6 

### with the security here, I'll make apologies to 7 

### folks who are not here in that there are still 8 

### some who are checking through the security. 9 

### But for those who are familiar with our 10 

### regulatory process in public meetings, you'll 11 

### recognize this is quite a bit different than 12 

### what we've done in the past. 13 

### And we've had about plus 150 14 

### people have asked to -- have indicated they're 15 

### going to be here today. And so we've moved to 16 

### the large auditorium. Normally we're in a 17 

### much more informal process. But we hope that 18 

### we'll be able to continue some of the 19 

### informality with a give and take, back and 20 

### forth and trying to understand the issues. 21 

### This is the first major revision 22 

### that we have made to our certification and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com7

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### enforcement rule. And actually I might even 2 

### pause and back up. Some of you recognize and 3 

### some of you don't even have a clue as to who I 4 

### am. 5 

### (Laughter.) 6 

### I'm Michael McCabe. I am the 7 

### Supervisor of the Department's Regulatory 8 

### Programs here within the Building Technologies 9 

### Program. In that capacity, I am responsible 10 

### for the Department's Appliance Standards 11 

### Program, the Test Procedures, our Energy Star 12 

### Test Procedure activities as well as our 13 

### Building Code activities. I've been 14 

### associated with the -- for the Department's 15 

### Appliance Standards Program for only a short 16 

### while since as I like to put it tongue in 17 

### cheek since February of 1979. 18 

### When we had our first public 19 

### meeting on certification enforcement which was 20 

### August of 1980 we were in a very different 21 

### auditorium, but it was even as crowded as 22 

### we're expecting today to be. People were -- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com8

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### We had French doors in that auditorium. 2 

### People were opening the doors, hanging 3 

### outside, because that day in Washington was 4 

### about 100 degrees Fahrenheit. 5 

### Today is a little bit cooler, but 6 

### a lot wetter. But with this we hope that it 7 

### will be a lot more comfortable for everybody. 8 

### But we do expect that there will be 9 

### questions. There will be some frustrations. 10 

### This is a significant issue for manufacturers 11 

### and for others. 12 

### We understand that there is a cost 13 

### element here. The purpose of this meeting is 14 

### to exchange information to get ideas with 15 

### regards to the notice of proposed rulemaking 16 

### that we've published. 17 

### There have been -- There are a 18 

### number of issues regarding certification 19 

### enforcement that are not being addressed in 20 

### this process. We expect as we discussed in 21 

### the proposed rule to have a follow-on 22 

### rulemaking that will get into some of the more NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com9

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### product-specific issues so that I will 2 

### constantly apologize. But I'll apologize in 3 

### advance that if we get into a discussion that 4 

### is outside the bounds of this rulemaking we 5 

### may try -- we may cut it off and ask you to 6 

### submit those comments in writing because 7 

### they'll be useful for the next rulemaking. 8 

### But if there's an issue that's 9 

### beyond what we are able to address in this 10 

### rulemaking, what we intend to address in this 11 

### rulemaking, we're not going to be able to do 12 

### anything with it in the final rule. And 13 

### spending too much time on that while it's 14 

### important for us to hear that for the upcoming 15 

### activities it will take away from the person 16 

### sitting next to you and sitting behind you who 17 

### has issues regarding this rulemaking and the 18 

### proposed rule that it may be questions. It 19 

### may be information that is a relevance that 20 

### could be enlightening to us that if we take 21 

### away from that person being able to speak it 22 

### will affect the quality of the rulemaking. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com10

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### So please we encourage you. We 2 

### ask you to focus on what is the subject of the 3 

### today's notice of proposed rulemaking and we 4 

### can focus on that. We encourage a full and 5 

### open dialogue. We encourage different 6 

### opinions because having that back and forth 7 

### that we find in our normal environment, 8 

### normally we have the normal layout for our 9 

### public meetings. It's a U-shaped conference 10 

### table. The interested parties sitting around 11 

### that. We have an exchange back and forth. 12 

### We're going to try to get some of that today, 13 

### but just given the layout it's going to be 14 

### very difficult. 15 

### I'd like to -- With that, I'd like 16 

### to introduce Tim Lynch who is -- I notice 17 

### you're Assistant General Counsel or Deputy 18 

### General Counsel for Litigation and Enforcement 19 

### who is our partner in the Program Office in 20 

### putting together the Certification Enforcement 21 

### Program, the regulations and implementing it. 22 

### So let me introduce Tim. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com11

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### MR. LYNCH: Good morning. 2 

### (Chorus of good mornings.) 3 

### I'd like to begin by encouraging 4 

### that people in the back to come forward. This 5 

### isn't law school where you can be the back 6 

### benchers. Come on up. Come on up sometime at 7 

### least at some point during the day. 8 

### My name is Timothy Lynch. I'm the 9 

### Deputy General Counsel for Litigation and 10 

### Enforcement in the Office of the General 11 

### Counsel. And on behalf of the General 12 

### Counsel, I'd like to welcome you today to this 13 

### public forum on our proposed rule. 14 

### I can tell you that this proposed 15 

### rule is the product of literally hundreds of 16 

### hours of work by attorneys, by engineers, by 17 

### program staff. We have worked very hard on 18 

### this proposed rule. I can tell you we've done 19 

### our very best. 20 

### And yet this is a human project. 21 

### This is not perfect. And there may be things 22 

### we didn't get it right. There may be things NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com12

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### that are not clear. There may be things that 2 

### we could improve upon. There may be technical 3 

### changes. There may be substantive changes. 4 

### We're very interested in learning your views 5 

### on our proposed rule so that we can make it 6 

### the best rule we can. And that's part of why 7 

### we're doing this today and as well as why we 8 

### will be reviewing all of the written comments 9 

### as well. 10 

### I want to talk to you just a 11 

### little bit about the Office of Enforcement 12 

### that we're building. As you probably know for 13 

### many years there has not been a significant 14 

### enforcement effort from the Department of 15 

### Energy. And that has recently changed. And 16 

### that change reflects the priorities of the 17 

### General Counsel, Scott Harris, and the 18 

### Secretary of Energy, Steve Chu, himself. 19 

### As part of this renewed 20 

### enforcement effort, we are making significant 21 

### progress in enforcing our energy efficiency 22 

### regulations. And in this past year we have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com13

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### taken a number of steps to do this. I was 2 

### brought in -- Before I came here, there was a 3 

### deputy general counsel for litigation. My 4 

### position was specifically created to add a 5 

### deputy general counsel for litigation and 6 

### enforcement. so that reflects the seriousness 7 

### with which enforcement efforts are being 8 

### taken. 9 

### And in the past year we have built 10 

### on that mandate. We have brought 76 11 

### enforcement cases and investigations. Just 12 

### three weeks ago we brought 27 enforcement 13 

### cases on one day. These were certification 14 

### violations and this was largest tranche of 15 

### cases brought on one day in the Department's 16 

### history. And of those 27 cases we've already 17 

### settled 13 of them. 18 

### We've secured over $300,000 in 19 

### penalties. We are bringing more cases. Just 20 

### to give you a sense of the resources that are 21 

### being dedicated to enforcement issues, over 22 

### the past few months more than 30 attorneys in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com14

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### the Office of General Counsel have been 2 

### working on enforcement, investigations and in 3 

### cases. 4 

### So this clearly is a priority of 5 

### the Department. And one of the reasons it's a 6 

### priority of the Department is that it's just 7 

### time. It's time for this to take place. This 8 

### is what Congress intended when it enacted our 9 

### statute. It's what consumers want and what 10 

### they deserve. 11 

### And frankly one of the things 12 

### we're learning is that it is what 13 

### manufacturers want. We get a lot of our tips 14 

### from you about other competitors who are not 15 

### complying with the regs. 16 

### And one of the reasons that's 17 

### important is that competitors should not get 18 

### an unfair competitive advantage by marketing 19 

### their products and not complying with our 20 

### regulation. So what we're doing is to try to 21 

### make sure there's a level playing field among 22 

### and between manufacturers and distributors and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com15

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### making sure that these regs. are enforced. 2 

### And part of this project today, 3 

### this public rule, is part of this continuing 4 

### effort on enforcement. We're looking to make 5 

### improvements to the enforcement regulations 6 

### and we're looking for your comments so that we 7 

### can make them better. 8 

### In particular, I've been working 9 

### very closely with Laura Barhydt who you know 10 

### who is helping me build this Office of 11 

### Enforcement and we are very interested in your 12 

### comments. I will tell you that I have 13 

### meetings today. I'm going to be in and out. 14 

### But I will be very interested in learning what 15 

### you have to say. 16 

### So thank you very much for your 17 

### time. 18 

### ATTENDEE INTRODUCTIONS AND AGENDA REVIEW 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 20 

### everyone. My name is Doug Brookman from 21 

### Public Solutions in Baltimore. I'll be 22 

### facilitating today's meeting. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com16

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### I think all of you have received a 2 

### packet of information as you came in the door. 3 

### I'm going to be doing a very brief agenda 4 

### review. You also received a packet of 5 

### PowerPoint slide materials. That will be the 6 

### material that will be flashed up on the 7 

### screen. 8 

### There are many people that are 9 

### joining us by web for this conference today. 10 

### So glad you could join us those of you who are 11 

### listening in via the web. 12 

### All of you have a copy of the 13 

### agenda. As I said, immediately following this 14 

### agenda review we'll have a brief introduction, 15 

### perhaps an overview, from Ashley and Laura. 16 

### Following that there's an opportunity 17 

### for brief opening remarks from interested 18 

### parties. That is summary statements, a minute, 19 

### no more than two, perhaps at a high level we 20 

### would hope on your key issues and concerns 21 

### regarding this proposed rule. 22 

### How many of you wish to make an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com17

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### opening statement this morning? 2 

### (Show of hands.) 3 

### Not so awfully many. Okay. Well, 4 

### we've allocated a significant amount of time 5 

### to do this. But if you could keep them brief, 6 

### that will make it easier to then get into the 7 

### more detailed content. 8 

### We intend to take a break 9 

### midmorning around about 11:00 a.m. or so. 10 

### We'll direct everyone to coffee at that point. 11 

### (Background hammering noise.) 12 

### Then immediately following the 13 

### break we'll go into the scope, reorganization 14 

### of DOE's existing CCE regulations, applying 15 

### DOE's existing CCE regulations to other 16 

### covered products, and basic model provisions. 17 

### We'll see if we can stop the hammering that's 18 

### going on. 19 

### We'll take lunch midday around 20 

### about noon. And then following lunch 21 

### certification, enforcement testing, 22 

### adjudications, verification testing, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com18

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### additional product-specific discussion, and 2 

### issues for which Doe seeks comment. The 3 

### general format for this many of you are 4 

### familiar with. How many of you are new to 5 

### this kind of proceeding? 6 

### (Show of hands.) 7 

### Several of you. Perhaps one

8 

### third. The way this generally works is that 9 

### Department will push -- you'll have a flash on 10 

### the screen -- information and a description of 11 

### what it's trying to convey. And then we'll 12 

### also create a comment box, a specific 13 

### opportunity for you to comment on those 14 

### issues. So we try and keep it organized in 15 

### that fashion and it's easier for all the 16 

### commentors to fit their comment in that 17 

### segment if you're with me. And also it's 18 

### easier for the Department to then interpret 19 

### all the comments that it receives both here in 20 

### this public meeting and in written form. 21 

### We'll take a break mid afternoon 22 

### around about 2:15 p.m. or so. Then after the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com19

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### afternoon break there's yet an opportunity for 2 

### closing remarks, other key issues that 3 

### individuals wish to raise. The Department 4 

### wants very much to provide an opportunity for 5 

### you to have ample comment on these issues. 6 

### These are important to you. That's what they 7 

### want to do. 8 

### We'll close this afternoon 9 

### whenever we get there, 3:30 p.m., 4:00 p.m., 10 

### whenever. The next steps and then also 11 

### closing remarks. And as listed in the agenda 12 

### we intend to adjourn today at 4:00 p.m. We'll 13 

### see where we end up. Okay. 14 

### Questions or comments before we 15 

### proceed? 16 

### (No verbal response.) 17 

### So now we're going to have an 18 

### introduction. Ashley Armstrong. 19 

### Oh, I should say one more thing. 20 

### You can see up here on this flip chart. It 21 

### asks for your consideration. We've developed 22 

### what I think is courtesy over the span of 15 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com20

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### plus years in these Appliance Standards 2 

### meetings if you could please speak one at a 3 

### time. Each time you speak at the microphone

- 4 

### - you see there are four of them around the 5 

### room -- please say your name for the record so 6 

### we know who's here. 7 

### Typically we do introductions. 8 

### But with 100 of us here in the room it's going 9 

### to be hard to do. Everybody registered. So 10 

### the Department has a complete record of who is 11 

### here. I'm going to cuing people as best as 12 

### possible. We also wish to encourage follow

13 

### on. It will be literally a cue that will form 14 

### behind each one of these microphones and we'll 15 

### alternate them around the room. 16 

### If you could try to be concise, 17 

### share the air time and also keep the focus 18 

### here. Please turn your cell phones on silent 19 

### mode so we limit the interruptions. 20 

### Ashley. 21 

### INTRODUCTIONS 22 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Good morning, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com21

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### everyone. My name is Ashley Armstrong. For 2 

### those who I haven't had the pleasure of 3 

### meeting, I'm now in the Department of Energy 4 

### in the Buildings Program. 5 

### The purpose of today's public 6 

### meeting is to present our proposed revisions 7 

### to the Certification, Compliance and 8 

### Enforcement Regulations, to seek comments from 9 

### you guys as well as discuss specific questions 10 

### raised. You'll notice as we go through the 11 

### public meeting there will be issue boxes 12 

### throughout the presentation for which will 13 

### help facilitate a discussion of those issues. 14 

### As you have questions as we go along, I would 15 

### encourage you to make your way to the 16 

### microphone so that everyone can hear you. And 17 

### we'll go from there. 18 

### Okay. So here are the steps of 19 

### the current Certification and Compliance and 20 

### Enforcement rulemaking. We've already 21 

### published a notice of proposed rulemaking on 22 

### September 16th. We're having the public NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com22

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### meeting today. The comment period is open for 2 

### written comments until October 18th. And we 3 

### plan to review all the comments, both those 4 

### from today's meeting as well as those written. 5 

### And the final rule is expected to be issued 6 

### by the end of the year. 7 

### This slide just provides you with 8 

### a little bit of a history regarding 9 

### certification, compliance and enforcement for 10 

### the covered products and covered equipment. 11 

### It shows a variety of our existing provisions 12 

### and method both in Parts 430 and 431. 13 

### Now I'm going to let Doug 14 

### facilitate a discussion of your opening 15 

### remarks and your comments from interested 16 

### parties. 17 

### BRIEF OPENING REMARKS FROM INTERESTED PARTIES 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So any 19 

### of you that wish to do so please just come up 20 

### to the microphone and let's get started with 21 

### these comments. 22 

### Yes please. And if you would say NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com23

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### your name please. 2 

### MR. CRAIG: My name is Ellis Craig 3 

### with Craig Industries, Quincy, Illinois. And 4 

### we have two or three comments. 5 

### We're new to this. Our industry 6 

### is fairly -- Well, it's not even totally 7 

### regulated yet. But it's being worked on. And 8 

### DOE is working on some projects that will 9 

### affect our company quite a bit and the 10 

### companies in our industry. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You have just a 12 

### couple minutes worth of comments. 13 

### MR. CRAIG: Yes. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. 15 

### MR. CRAIG: I'm not reading this 16 

### whole thing. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 18 

### MR. CRAIG: You're safe. I've just 19 

### got some notes at the top of it. Okay. 20 

### We have three areas that I just 21 

### want to make real quick comments. One of them 22 

### is our industry is full of small businesses. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com24

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### Some have been recognized by the Department of 2 

### Energy. But many have not. 3 

### We show in your document that the 4 

### Department of Energy has recognized around 45 5 

### small businesses in the walk-in cooler 6 

### business. And there are probably another 50 7 

### to 100 that are small garage shop operations 8 

### that build units one at a time, whatever, over 9 

### the years. And all of these regulations bring 10 

### a cost that will probably put 90 percent of 11 

### those guys out of the business and of the 40 12 

### left it should probably put about 75 percent 13 

### of those out of the business by the time we 14 

### add the cost involved with these regulations. 15 

### And we think it's kinda unfairly damaging to 16 

### small businesses. And we just want to bring 17 

### that to the DOE's attention. 18 

### Number two is we want to say that 19 

### there's -- It was kinda thrown in, but in the 20 

### document that we received on this no par, it 21 

### talks about the description of who the 22 

### manufacturer is in our industry. And in our NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com25

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### industry we don't build a product, put it in a 2 

### box, ship it out, plug it into the wall and it 3 

### turns on. 4 

### There are a lot of parties 5 

### involved. DOE is recognizing that. But in 6 

### the definition that we got that evidently 7 

### legal wants to have some input on is that who 8 

### that definition of the walk-in manufacturer is 9 

### is anybody who has any input over the 10 

### selection of the material that goes into a 11 

### walk-in and makes that final decision is now 12 

### defined as the manufacturer. And more or less 13 

### that's kinda of simple definition the way we 14 

### understand it. 15 

### But they're excluding the 16 

### installers who install this product in the 17 

### field. And in the definition that the DOE is 18 

### using it says that anybody who imports, 19 

### manufactures -- They go through several and 20 

### one of them is assembles walk-ins. 21 

### But for some reason in this 22 

### article that we -- in this document that we NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com26

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### were given they're excluding the installer 2 

### unless the installer actually fixed the 3 

### material that goes into the walk-in. And we 4 

### as the manufacturer and other manufacturers 5 

### have continually brought the attention to the 6 

### DOE that the installers can have more of an 7 

### impact on the energy use of that walk-in than 8 

### probably the manufacturers can. 9 

### So all the efforts that are going 10 

### forth right now are based strictly on the 11 

### people who build products but not the ones 12 

### that are putting them together. And it's a 13 

### great concern of ours that all the efforts 14 

### that are going forth are probably not going -- 15 

### Our big question is -- an example would be -- 16 

### we can build the right product. We can meet 17 

### the certification. 18 

### We can send it out in the field, 19 

### the guy who picks it -- whether we do or the 20 

### guy in the field who picks it becomes the 21 

### manufacturer which is fine. But when it goes 22 

### to being installed if it's installed NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com27

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### incorrectly or not according to specifications 2 

### and that's a noncompliant product out there 3 

### and somebody complains to the DOE, who does 4 

### the DOE Legal Department come after? As it is 5 

### right now, the way this law is written, they 6 

### don't go after the guy that installed it. 7 

### They can only go after the manufacturer or the 8 

### guy who selected the product. 9 

### And that's a real concern to us 10 

### because we're really building parts to be 11 

### assembled as a walk-in in the field which 12 

### really the person who is assembling it in the 13 

### field can verify all the testing is being done 14 

### by other people. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 16 

### MR. CRAIG: And I'm going to -- 17 

### I'll jump on here. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 19 

### MR. CRAIG: Our concern is that. 20 

### The last thing I wanted to say is we don't 21 

### understand the basic unit concept in our 22 

### industry. And I've read all the documents. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com28

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### And I'm more confused now than I was at the 2 

### beginning. We don't know what is going to be 3 

### defined as a basic unit. Is there going to be 4 

### 100 basic units for us or not? We don't know. 5 

### Because every walk-in -- Seventy percent of 6 

### the walk-ins we build are custom. Okay. 7 

### That's it. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You've participated 9 

### in these proceedings previously? 10 

### MR. CRAIG: Yes. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: So you know the 12 

### Department wants to see your comments also in 13 

### writing. 14 

### MR. CRAIG: They're already in 15 

### there. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And also 17 

### those specifics around employment impacts and 18 

### that kind of stuff, how it will affect small 19 

### businesses. That's stuff the Department 20 

### really wants to see. 21 

### MR. CRAIG: Yes. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com29

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### Andrew, were you next? 2 

### MR. deLASKI: Thanks Doug. And 3 

### thanks to the Department for holding this 4 

### workshop today on critical NOPR. I'm Andrew 5 

### deLaski with the Appliance Standards Awareness 6 

### Project. And I want to make a couple of high 7 

### level comments with regard to the proposed 8 

### rule today. And I'll look forward to 9 

### participating in the detailed comments later 10 

### on this afternoon or this morning. 11 

### First, I want to congratulate the 12 

### Department and thank you for advancing this 13 

### proposed rule and for your actions as you 14 

### described in the opening remarks to enhance 15 

### enforcement of appliance standards. As it's 16 

### been noted, it's long overdue and most welcome 17 

### to have a more rigorous effort to make sure 18 

### that we're getting the savings and a level 19 

### playing field for manufacturers in setting 20 

### appliance standards. 21 

### The proposal before us today makes 22 

### many critical strides forward. And I want to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com30

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### highlight just a few strides forward although 2 

### there's a lot. But I just want to emphasize 3 

### three. 4 

### One, it make clear that a change 5 

### in efficiencies on a new basic model. That's 6 

### a critical improvement. 7 

### Secondly, it makes clear that DOE 8 

### can initiate enforcement actions on its own 9 

### volition, not with just a third party 10 

### complaint. But DOE on its own can initiate 11 

### enforcement actions. It's a critical reform. 12 

### Third, it makes the certification 13 

### data is subject to public disclosure. 14 

### These are just three of the 15 

### important reforms in the NOPR. There are many 16 

### more. There's a lot of meat there. We think 17 

### in general there's a lot of things here that 18 

### are quite positive. 19 

### But -- and I guess you knew this 20 

### part was coming -- there are few places where 21 

### it falls short. Some of which DOE 22 

### acknowledges in the proposed rule in stating NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com31

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### that you're deferring some critical issues to 2 

### a sequent rulemaking. But some of which are 3 

### almost the proposed rule was silent. There 4 

### are quite a few, but I want to highlight just 5 

### three in these opening remarks. 6 

### First, we think this is absolutely 7 

### critical to a successful enforcement effort is 8 

### verification testing. The proposed rule says 9 

### that you're going to defer verification 10 

### testing to a subsequent rulemaking. 11 

### We're concerned that this be put 12 

### off too far into the future because the 13 

### interaction of verification testing with 14 

### what's in the rule today has critical 15 

### implications for what's acceptable and what 16 

### would work and what you're proposing today. 17 

### You need to look no further than the 18 

### preliminary results from DOE's first round of 19 

### verification testing for the Energy Start 20 

### Program to see that the critical need for 21 

### check or spot testing is absolutely clear. 22 

### We know it's preliminary testing. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com32

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### The sample sizes are small. The second round 2 

### testing hasn't been done yet. But the 3 

### preliminary testing certainly is alarming to 4 

### what we're seeing in the Energy Star 5 

### verification testing. 6 

### If you don't do verification 7 

### testing, you simply cannot answer the most 8 

### basic questions about the integrity of 9 

### national standards. Are our consumers getting 10 

### the savings promised? Is the nation gaining 11 

### energy reductions? The energy waste 12 

### reductions intended? And are manufacturers 13 

### most of whom play by the rules getting a level 14 

### playing field on which to compete? 15 

### Secondly, lab accreditation. In 16 

### our view all labs must be accredited including 17 

### and especially lab use for manufacturers self

18 

### certification. But NOPR is silent on this 19 

### question. Lab accreditation is a point of 20 

### major concern for us. 21 

### Thirdly, waivers. Last spring in 22 

### the request for information DOE solicited NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com33

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### comments on waivers. DOE asked "Should 2 

### manufacturers be required to seek waivers when 3 

### a test method does not reasonably represent a 4 

### product's efficiency?" 5 

### Right now, manufacturers have 6 

### ample incentive to seek waivers if a method 7 

### overestimates energy use or simply can't be 8 

### tested under the test method but zero 9 

### incentive to do so if it underestimates energy 10 

### use. Now we've all heard stories of 11 

### manufacturers who or at least a story of a 12 

### manufacturer who specifically designed the 13 

### product to trick the test method. Technology, 14 

### software, smart products offer the potential 15 

### for a product to simply detect test conditions 16 

### and alter its operation. 17 

### If DOE were to require that 18 

### manufacturers seek waivers for products that 19 

### the manufacturer knows significantly deferred 20 

### from the tested results that would provide a 21 

### mechanism to address the sort of deliberate 22 

### circumvention of test methods. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com34

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### In addition, the number of waivers 2 

### alerts DOE of a problem with its test methods. 3 

### DOE is giving much work into the test methods 4 

### and that's very, very welcome. It's a 5 

### welcomed change. But the number of waiver 6 

### applications is a mechanism for DOE to 7 

### determine which test methods are most need of 8 

### attention for modification for updating. 9 

### Those are my opening remarks. 10 

### Thank you very much. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 12 

### I believe I'll go to here next. 13 

### Is it Jennifer. Your name for the record 14 

### please. And then after that we'll go to here 15 

### and then back over here. 16 

### MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with 17 

### the Association -- 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Louder, Jennifer. 19 

### MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with 20 

### the Association of Home Appliance 21 

### Manufacturers. AHHM is a strong supporter of 22 

### redoubling efforts to improve public NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com35

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### confidence in reported energy use. 2 

### Corporate integrity and competitor 3 

### oversight have long provided an excellent 4 

### record of compliance with Federal requirements 5 

### in the appliance sector in particular. If 6 

### tighter standards, changes in design and 7 

### technology and public and government 8 

### perception require additional assurance of 9 

### certification and labeling compliance, we 10 

### support development of appropriate programs 11 

### and requirements and appreciate the 12 

### opportunity to be involved in that 13 

### development. 14 

### It is critical, however, that 15 

### enforcement regulations are not over 16 

### burdensome in order to be successful and that 17 

### they do not provide redundant and duplicative 18 

### testing of the same product which only adds to 19 

### cost with no complimentary gains in oversight. 20 

### In that regard, AHHM strongly 21 

### urges DOE to leverage third party verification 22 

### programs developed by industry, trade NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com36

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### associations such as AHHM. These independent 2 

### programs often provide the most cost effective 3 

### use of limited lab testing space and can 4 

### provide a high level of competency yielding 5 

### more accurate compliance oversight. 6 

### We will further discuss this in 7 

### our later comments. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 9 

### I believe you were next. Your 10 

### name. 11 

### MS. CHANG: My name is Christine 12 

### Chang and I'm a legal fellow at the Natural 13 

### Resources Defense Council. 14 

### NRDC appreciates DOE's effort to 15 

### revise and expand its regulations in this 16 

### area. I would like to highlight today just a 17 

### few areas that require further DOE 18 

### consideration. 19 

### The first is on verification 20 

### testing. NRDC supports the development of a 21 

### verification program. And I would like to 22 

### emphasize what Andrew deLaski just said in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com37

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### that it's critical for the verification 2 

### program to be developed concurrently with this 3 

### proposed rulemaking or shortly thereafter 4 

### because of how interconnected the 5 

### certification, compliance and enforcement 6 

### mechanisms are. 7 

### The interim results of Energy Star 8 

### verification testing has showed that 17 9 

### percent of the units tested exceed Energy Star 10 

### usage specifications by five percent or more. 11 

### These alarming results should provide DOE 12 

### further motivation to develop their 13 

### verification program now. I won't go into the 14 

### details of what we suggest for a verification 15 

### program but just want to emphasize that any 16 

### verification testing should be done off the 17 

### shelf and by independent, accredited 18 

### laboratories. 19 

### On recertification, DOE proposes 20 

### an annual recertification requiring yearly 21 

### resubmission of test data from the initial 22 

### certification. Instead of this, NRDC believes NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com38

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### that it would be more effective if there is 2 

### regular recertification which would require 3 

### new laboratory testing. The frequency of this 4 

### recertification would depend on product

5 

### specific factors as well as a production cycle 6 

### and whether there is any change in energy 7 

### usage above a de minimus threshold. And these 8 

### would all be product-specific so as not to 9 

### unduly burden manufacturers. We also support 10 

### a laboratory accreditation program similar to 11 

### the Energy Star accreditation program. 12 

### Finally, on public disclosure, we 13 

### urge DOE to clarify that manufacturers must 14 

### submit full test data including actual 15 

### performance results rather than just the final 16 

### result that a given product meet the Federal 17 

### minimum standard. In the development of a 18 

### verification program, we would also like 19 

### individual model data to all be made public. 20 

### And we think that DOE should establish a 21 

### public database to be the repository for all 22 

### of this information to increase transparency NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com39

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### and public access. 2 

### We will be submitting written 3 

### comments to further discuss these topics and I 4 

### want to thank you for your time and for the 5 

### opportunity to speak today. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 7 

### Tim, I think this gentleman was 8 

### next. You're next. 9 

### MR. DeMARCO: My name is Pete 10 

### DeMarco. I'm with the International 11 

### Association of Plumbing and Mechanical 12 

### Officials. That's IAPMO. I'm here today 13 

### representing IAPMO R&T which is a third party 14 

### certifier of plumbing products. We are the 15 

### largest third party certifier of plumbing 16 

### products in North America. 17 

### I'd like to applaud DOE for having 18 

### this listening program and continuing the 19 

### process of hearing your stakeholders. I think 20 

### it's critical to arriving at the right balance 21 

### in these deliberations. 22 

### The scope of my comments should be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com40

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### limited to the consumer products that pertain 2 

### the plumbing side of the equation here. So 3 

### it's toilets, urinals, faucets and shower 4 

### heads. 5 

### We support the DOE's effort 6 

### through this process to increase compliance. 7 

### We think that's critical. I think there's 8 

### been a lot of -- We think there's been a lot 9 

### of confusion in the industry in terms of what 10 

### those requirements are. And we feel that 11 

### there is a need for DOE to provide additional 12 

### clarity to manufacturers specifically into 13 

### what those requirements are so they understand 14 

### what they need to do in the reporting process. 15 

### We support the goal of harmonizing 16 

### reporting requirements with FTC reporting 17 

### requirements in our industry. We think that's 18 

### a great idea and support that concept. 19 

### We support continuing allowing 20 

### manufacturers in our industry to allow self

21 

### testing and self-certification of these 22 

### particular consumer products only because the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com41

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### plumbing industry is already a very highly 2 

### regulated industry for plumbing products. 3 

### They already for code compliance. There's a 4 

### need to independently test and certify all of 5 

### those products with a third party 6 

### certification entity already in place. That's 7 

### been going on for years. 8 

### And hence we don't feel that 9 

### additional verification or testing 10 

### independently is necessary. However, we do 11 

### suggest that or recommend that when a third 12 

### party provides those services to a 13 

### manufacturer that the labs that are using or 14 

### that have applied for that reporting be 15 

### accredited laboratories. 16 

### And finally once again we hope 17 

### that DOE can once these rules have been 18 

### arrived at that there is a greater outreach 19 

### program to manufacturers so that they 20 

### understand exactly what their requirements 21 

### are. Previously before working with IAPMO, I 22 

### worked for a long time with a plumbing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com42

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### manufacturer and I happen to know that there's 2 

### a lot of confusion among some of my colleagues 3 

### in the industry as to what those requirements 4 

### were. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So your 6 

### written remarks in detail will be helpful for 7 

### the Department. 8 

### MR. DeMARCO: Will do. 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Tim Ballo. 10 

### MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with 11 

### EarthJustice. First, I just want to thank the 12 

### Department for all the work you've done in 13 

### putting this proposal together. I'd like to 14 

### amplify or at least just second some comments 15 

### that Natural Resources Defense Council and the 16 

### Appliance Standards Awareness Project made 17 

### particularly about annual certification. 18 

### The determination of when 19 

### something has been modified if anyone is 20 

### familiar with the EPA's New Source Review 21 

### Program under the Clean Air Act when something 22 

### is modified can often be a very difficult NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com43

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### determination to make. So we support an 2 

### annual certification particularly in actual 3 

### retesting to certify the products, not just a 4 

### resubmission. 5 

### Secondly, reading those the regs., 6 

### folks may have seen me outside this morning as 7 

### I went through them, there were some 8 

### inconsistencies. For some products there is a 9 

### NADRAB (phonetic) certification requirement 10 

### for the certification testing. For example, 11 

### many of the lighting products have to be -- 12 

### the labs have to be NADRAB certified. 13 

### Other products don't. We support 14 

### NADRAB certification for all certification 15 

### testing labs and the Department at least needs 16 

### to explain why it believes that certification 17 

### is necessary for some products and not for 18 

### others. 19 

### Secondly, the tolerances, the 20 

### confidence intervals for our product specific 21 

### they tend to vary quite a bit from 90 up to 99 22 

### percent generally. There may be a valid NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com44

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### justification for some of those variances. 2 

### But we'd like to see a little more explanation 3 

### of why the Department proposes to retain the 4 

### wide variances in confidence intervals. And 5 

### particularly for many of these confidence 6 

### intervals they may have been set 10, 20, maybe 7 

### 30 years ago. And it was my assumption that 8 

### manufacturing processes have improved in the 9 

### interval such that the confidence intervals 10 

### that would have been appropriate at the time 11 

### these both were initially set may no longer be 12 

### appropriate and need to be reexamined. 13 

### And finally with regard to the 14 

### alternative efficiency determination 15 

### methodologies, they also tend to vary product 16 

### to product. The Department maybe should look 17 

### at harmonizing those to the extent possible. 18 

### It might help simplify the regulations and 19 

### make them more consistent. 20 

### Thanks. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 22 

### Please. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com45

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### MS. DICKINSON: Good morning. My 2 

### name is Maryanne Dickinson. I'm the President 3 

### and CEO of the Alliance for Water Efficiency 4 

### which is a nonprofit, national stakeholder 5 

### based organization comprised of 312 member 6 

### organizations from water utilities, government 7 

### agencies, business, industry, plumbing and 8 

### appliance and irrigation manufacturers, 9 

### retailers, environmental and energy efficiency 10 

### advocates and other stakeholders. I'm very 11 

### pleased to be here today at this DOE 12 

### proceeding precisely because you are now 13 

### considering issues related to water and we're 14 

### very happy to see that. 15 

### Since the addition of water 16 

### consumption requirements in EPACT in the early 17 

### 1990s we feel that the water has not exactly 18 

### been a priority for DOE enforcement or 19 

### verification testing. We all know that a 20 

### strong nexus exists between water and energy 21 

### use in pumping, treatment, heating and cooling 22 

### and especially in power production. The real NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com46

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### loser in a lack of enforcement has been the 2 

### consumer who knowingly or unknowingly wastes 3 

### water and thus wastes energy. 4 

### Manufacturers who have complied 5 

### with the Federal requirements in good faith 6 

### for water consumption have been put at a 7 

### competitive disadvantage because of this lack 8 

### of enforcement relative to those manufacturers 9 

### particularly from out of the country who have 10 

### not. Energy, water and waste water utilities 11 

### have had to struggle with water capacity 12 

### constraints or overbuild their infrastructure 13 

### in part due to excess water use. The Federal 14 

### Government and state and local government 15 

### interests have also been impacted with water 16 

### waste increasing the need for public funding 17 

### and energy, water and waste water research and 18 

### infrastructure projects. 19 

### So thus we are pleased at the 20 

### Alliance to CDOE take recent enforcement 21 

### actions on certification during 2010. 22 

### Hopefully, revised DOE rules will improve the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com47

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### enforcement of applicable energy and water 2 

### conservation standards for covered products. 3 

### We are providing detailed comments 4 

### per DOE's request. And we'd like to urge DOE 5 

### to provide the necessary resources for 6 

### continued enforcement particularly for 7 

### verification testing based on the invisible 8 

### and perhaps nonexistent enforcement of water 9 

### provisions of EPACT over the past 16 years. 10 

### In our detailed comments, we go 11 

### through a number of issue areas and I won't 12 

### take the time to do that here. It's all in 13 

### writing, but there are four areas which DOE 14 

### was seeking comments on which I just briefly 15 

### want to make a few statements on. 16 

### One concerns the basic model. An 17 

### individual model-by-model declaration burdens 18 

### we feel manufacturers with excess filings 19 

### while not providing significant new 20 

### information on all those different models. We 21 

### believe you should allow manufacturers to 22 

### group models having similar energy and water NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com48

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### use characteristics and file them as one or 2 

### more basic model bundles which would not 3 

### require a refiling. 4 

### Any model contained in a basic 5 

### model bundle would need to meet DOE criteria, 6 

### specification, testing results, etc. 7 

### Manufacturers should be allowed to bundle 8 

### their models with a not less than/not more 9 

### than energy and water use designation as they 10 

### prefer. It would be the manufacturer's 11 

### responsibility to frequently update DOE on all 12 

### individual models contained in that model 13 

### bundle prior to initiating sales. We make 14 

### this recommendation to try and ease the burden 15 

### not only on the manufacturers but also on DOE 16 

### oversight. 17 

### The issue of verification testing 18 

### has been raised by a number of speakers. And 19 

### we would like to go on record as being 20 

### strongly opposed to the concept of 21 

### manufacturer self-testing and self

22 

### certification especially given the prevalent, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com49

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### unproven product claims that appear in today's 2 

### marketplace. Instead we recommend that DOE 3 

### look at US EPA's Water Sense Program model 4 

### which requires independent third party testing 5 

### by accredited certification bodies. 6 

### DOE should randomly select product 7 

### from retail distributors, importers or other 8 

### outlets for periodic independent testing. 9 

### Upon satisfactory testing the product could 10 

### then be returned for retail distributors for a 11 

### modest restocking fee. We recommend that 12 

### testing not be conducted using a cherry-picked 13 

### set of samples sent directly from 14 

### manufacturers to their agents. 15 

### Products that fail to meet DOE 16 

### specifications after this initial testing 17 

### would then enter a second round of testing 18 

### which would include larger sample sizes from 19 

### multiple retailers selected by an independent 20 

### tester. And we go into more detail in our 21 

### comments. 22 

### And we have two more comments on NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com50

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### the DOE issues on which you were seeking 2 

### comment, but I think in the interest of time I 3 

### will stop here. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 5 

### MS. DICKINSON: Thank you. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: That's considerate. 7 

### You're next. 8 

### MR. KELLER: My name is Bob 9 

### Keller. I'm with Nanopore Insulation. It's a 10 

### joint venture between M4 Incorporated 11 

### (phonetic) and CLR Incorporation (phonetic). 12 

### The comments I liked to make may 13 

### or may not be specific to this rulemaking. 14 

### I'll keep them brief. But I think they are 15 

### worthy of mention anyway. They are specific 16 

### to validation testing and the actual 17 

### specifications themselves. 18 

### What we've seen and we do applaud 19 

### of course the increase in the regulations 20 

### which require energy efficiency. But what is 21 

### most concerning to us is that there could be a 22 

### glaring loophole that exists. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com51

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### Specifically in the area of 2 

### lifetime performance, all the research we've 3 

### done so far indicates that once an appliance 4 

### passes it's expected to maintain that same 5 

### level of energy efficiency over the lifetime 6 

### of that model. Wherein, in fact, we are quite 7 

### confident that many of the new insulating 8 

### technologies that are being employed could 9 

### have dropoffs of as much as 70 percent 10 

### performance over a very short period of time, 11 

### rendering that same product probably worse off 12 

### than if we had enacted the legislation at all. 13 

### So what I am suggesting is that 14 

### there be some type of lifetime performance 15 

### enacted or required that would make sure that 16 

### any product that passes the test initially 17 

### also passes after a six month, 12 month or 18 

### whatever is most applicable. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 20 

### MR. KELLER: Thank you. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 22 

### So we have set aside -- Yes NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com52

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### please. 2 

### MR. LEWIS: Just didn't want to 3 

### stand a long time. I'm Harmon Lewis with 4 

### American Panel Corporation. We make walk-in 5 

### coolers and freezers like many of the people 6 

### attending here. I do echo Ellis Craig's 7 

### opening remarks on walk-in coolers and 8 

### freezers and their individuality. 9 

### Additionally one thing we need to 10 

### not lose sight of is walk-in coolers and 11 

### freezers are concerned with food safety. Food 12 

### safety is the overwhelming criteria for our 13 

### design, both the envelope, the sizing of the 14 

### refrigeration system and refrigeration must 15 

### keep those food products safe or even on the 16 

### hottest days of the year not just on the cool 17 

### days. 18 

### If air conditioning is undersized, 19 

### you just get a little warm, maybe you 20 

### perspired. If your walk-in cooler or freezer 21 

### has undersized refrigeration your customers 22 

### get sick. Maybe even they die just to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com53

1 

### blunt. 2 

### So walk-in coolers and freezers 3 

### don't have basic models. We build over 1500 4 

### each year and probably 1450 of them are 5 

### different. So each jobsite is unique. 6 

### Testing criteria must take into account that 7 

### uniqueness and variability. Testing costs are 8 

### very significant. Small manufacturers will be 9 

### more overburdened as compared to large 10 

### manufacturers. And as Ellis pointed out 11 

### there's a lot more small manufacturers than 12 

### large. So we want to keep the level playing 13 

### field please. 14 

### Thank you. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 16 

### Other commentors in the outset. 17 

### There's time for this if you've got things to 18 

### raise here at the outset. 19 

### Nothing additional. Okay. So far 20 

### as we know the web link is working okay. 21 

### Right? Yes? Good. 22 

### Okay. So then let's proceed with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com54

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### the content. All of you have a copy of the 2 

### agenda. You also have the presentation packet 3 

### which has these slides if you want to be 4 

### taking notes to yourself as the presentation 5 

### proceeds. 6 

### SCOPE, REORGANIZATION OF DOE'S EXISTING CCE 7 

### REGULATIONS, APPLYING DOE'S EXISTING CCE 8 

### REGULATIONS TO OTHER COVERED PRODUCTS AND 9 

### BASIC MODEL PROVISIONS 10 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So the 11 

### first thing we're going to talk about is the 12 

### scope of this rulemaking and some potential 13 

### topics for the next rulemaking. 14 

### The scope of this rulemaking is 15 

### really there are visions to the existing 16 

### certification, compliance and enforcement 17 

### regulations currently found in 430 and 431. 18 

### They're consolidated and being moved or 19 

### proposed to being moved to a new Part 429. We 20 

### did expand to include the EISA 2000 products 21 

### for which we didn't currently have provisions. 22 

### In the second round of rulemaking NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com55

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### we are going to consider provisions for 2 

### electric motors. We did not move the 3 

### provisions in 431 for electric motors 4 

### currently or suggest any changes to those. 5 

### Including potential are revisions 6 

### to the sampling plans for certification and 7 

### enforcement testing for all covered products 8 

### and equipment. That will be a topic for round 9 

### two including necessary changes to the 10 

### potential tolerances. 11 

### Compliance requirements for 12 

### characteristics other than those for energy 13 

### efficiency and water efficiency. And an 14 

### example of that could be a compliance 15 

### requirement for like the storage volume, the 16 

### actual storage volume, of a water heater 17 

### rather than just the rated storage volume. 18 

### In addition, requirements for 19 

### voluntary industry certification programs and 20 

### how that might work with a DOE verification 21 

### program. Laboratory accreditation is another 22 

### one as well as there is a couple of other ones NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com56

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### as stated on this slide. 2 

### As you may have questions or 3 

### comments to anything I'm saying just make your 4 

### way to the side so I can see you and stop as 5 

### I'm going. 6 

### So the next slide is a brief 7 

### explanation of what we've done with this 8 

### notice of proposed rulemaking. As I said 9 

### earlier we've taken the existing provisions in 10 

### 430 and 431 with the exception of motors and 11 

### proposed to move it to a new Part 429. 12 

### As an example, we have on this 13 

### slide is the data submission requirements that 14 

### are currently found in three different 15 

### sections. They will now be housed for all 16 

### covered products and all covered equipment 17 

### with issuance of this rule in a new 10 CFR 18 

### 429.19. 19 

### So the next one is we've expanded 20 

### to a certain extent our existing 21 

### certification, compliance and enforcement 22 

### regulations to all covered products and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com57

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### covered equipment. That would include -- Yes. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have Manfred 3 

### Wilhelm Staebler in the audience? 4 

### MS. STAEBLER: Yes. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Would you join? 6 

### (Off the record comment.) 7 

### Thank you. Sorry to interrupt. 8 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Not a problem. 9 

### So this slide just lists a handful 10 

### of products that were added to DOE's authority 11 

### either by EISA or by EPACT 05 and/or through 12 

### DOE rulemakings for which we noted we added 13 

### provisions to. 14 

### Okay. The next topic is basic 15 

### model certification. The intent here is that 16 

### manufacturers will treat models that have 17 

### essentially the same energy or water 18 

### consumption characteristics as a basic model. 19 

### So we provide an example of this. 20 

### Models with different colors such 21 

### as the different finish, one that is white 22 

### versus stainless steel or versus black, could NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com58

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### be considered the same basic model to the 2 

### extent they have no impact on the energy or 3 

### water use. What would not be a basic model is 4 

### a model that has essentially the same internal 5 

### components but employs a different control 6 

### strategy that does affect the energy or water 7 

### use. 8 

### So with the next slide I'm going 9 

### to pass the presentation to Doug. But we're 10 

### interested in determining comments on how many 11 

### factors determine what is a basic model, what 12 

### in particular constitutes a basic model as 13 

### well as there's a number of questions on this 14 

### slide. So I would encourage you to provide us 15 

### feedback and direction wherever possible. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: So this is your 17 

### opportunity to respond specifically to these 18 

### questions. Several of you referenced the 19 

### issue of basic model in your opening remarks. 20 

### Please. I see your name again, Ellis. 21 

### MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig 22 

### Industries. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com59

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### This is the point that we brought 2 

### up in our opening statement and Harmon covered 3 

### a little bit in his opening statement 4 

### concerning basic models. Our industry doesn't 5 

### like I say make standard products. So 6 

### therefore we are having some real confusion on 7 

### what's considered a basic model and what group 8 

### that would be because like in a convenient 9 

### store where you have an angle put into a walk

10 

### in where this customer doesn't want a 11 

### rectangular walk-in he wants an angled walk

12 

### in, that would change maybe the efficiency of 13 

### the unit because we have an angled walk-in is 14 

### probably less, uses less energy than straight 15 

### walls because of the square footage involved. 16 

### So we would not be able to make 17 

### maybe 50 to 70 percent of our products because 18 

### we couldn't afford to go out and get basic 19 

### model testing on each kind of system that we 20 

### could manufacture. So this is a great concern 21 

### to us that are basic models are based open a 22 

### lot bigger. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com60

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Could you describe 2 

### how the Department might address this? 3 

### MR. CRAIG: Well, when we first 4 

### had our first NOPR the discussion there was 5 

### that we would test the panels, the actual 6 

### insulation inside the panels, that we would 7 

### maybe work off a square foot rule or a cubic 8 

### foot rule of the walk-in and going by that we 9 

### could get an average energy use of that 10 

### packet. If we went to that, that would be 11 

### fine. 12 

### But when you're testing a basic 13 

### model and then applying it to just this 14 

### certain criteria of walk-ins, we have 15 

### thousands of them that we would have to test. 16 

### And we couldn't afford to test any of them. 17 

### So a formula would work well that 18 

### we could apply according to the R value of the 19 

### panels that we're manufacturing. That would be 20 

### our recommendation. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 22 

### I'm going to Karim next. In these NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com61

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### comments if you could try to specifically 2 

### address how you think the Department might 3 

### address your concern then that would be a big 4 

### help to them. 5 

### Karim. 6 

### MR. AMRANE: Yes. Karim Amrane. 7 

### I'm with the Air Conditioning, Heating and 8 

### Refrigeration Institute. 9 

### We have some great concern about 10 

### the definition of basic model groups as it 11 

### applies to central air conditioners whether 12 

### being split systems or variable refrigerant 13 

### flow systems. And we feel in fact that what 14 

### DOE is proposing here, what this is attempting 15 

### the regulation, is in contradiction with DOE 16 

### had done back in 1987 when NACA was 17 

### established and where specifically for split 18 

### system there was a definition of higher sales 19 

### combination to recognize the fact that there 20 

### were differences between the thousands and 21 

### thousands of combinations you could have with 22 

### split systems. So in fact that's why DOE NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com62

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### required only the highest sales to be tested 2 

### and allowed manufacturers to use an 3 

### alternative rating method to rate those 4 

### combinations. 5 

### So HRI has been certifying air 6 

### conditioning equipment and other equipment for 7 

### over 50 years. And we have a definition for 8 

### basic model groups that we will share with you 9 

### and in writing I think of course. But 10 

### basically we look at the components, the 11 

### outdoor unit, the indoor unit. Those, yes, 12 

### have to be similar. 13 

### But then you could have regular 14 

### variation in terms of expansion devices that 15 

### you would use and so on. And even if you have 16 

### slight variation in use here you could still 17 

### list those models into your basic model group. 18 

### But you would be subject to testing through 19 

### our verification program and if one unit would 20 

### fail then the entire basic model group would 21 

### have to be rerated. 22 

### So we feel that that's the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com63

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### approach that DOE should look at seriously. 2 

### And I have to point out again that FTC, if you 3 

### look at the energy guide label of FTC, you 4 

### will see that FTC requires the energy 5 

### consumption or the rating to be only for the 6 

### highest sales combination. And there is a 7 

### disclaimer in the label that said that energy 8 

### efficiency will be different for different 9 

### combinations. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 11 

### Please. 12 

### MR. VERSHAW: I am Jim Vershaw 13 

### with Ingersoll Rand. We make Trane and 14 

### American Standard residential air conditioning 15 

### equipment. Just to help with what Karim just 16 

### said, we have currently with the definition 17 

### that's been used with DOE since the 1900s we 18 

### have about 90 basic models of outdoor units 19 

### which then when you match those with indoor 20 

### units you get close to 200,000 different 21 

### combinations with ratings. 22 

### And we would hope that the DOE NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com64

1 

### would continue on with the proposal for the 2 

### way we've been doing the basic models over the 3 

### last several years because it has been working 4 

### in terms of verification testing we do with 5 

### independent labs. And the changes we make 6 

### when we make a change to a basic model, the 7 

### outdoor unit, it does change the ratings and 8 

### we will change the model number. 9 

### Another area, if you get into 10 

### commercial equipment, we have equipment that's 11 

### up to about 100 tons which fills a whole 12 

### flatbed on an 18 wheeler and costs $200,000 13 

### for one of those things and it can't be tested 14 

### anywhere. So as we get into annual 15 

### recertification thought process, we want to 16 

### make sure we look specifically at different 17 

### types of products and what that effect might 18 

### have on the manufacturers. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 20 

### Please. 21 

### MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with 22 

### Mitsubishi Electric. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com65

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### I just also want to add a little 2 

### bit more to what Karim had said. Specifically 3 

### with ductless, multi-splits and variable 4 

### refrigerant flow systems, these are our 5 

### complex systems. And there is currently a 6 

### tested combination definition that's in Part 7 

### 430 for equipment less than 65,000 and we're 8 

### going to be submitting comments on amending 9 

### that definition for systems greater than 10 

### 65,000 to accommodate the more complexities of 11 

### that. 12 

### And that adds into the basic model 13 

### group. Currently, multi-split systems under 14 

### 65,000 the outdoor unit is required to be 15 

### tested ducted indoor units and nonducted 16 

### because each has a different efficiency 17 

### rating. So the current definition of basic 18 

### model group says that that same outdoor unit 19 

### would be in two different basic model groups. 20 

### So we feel that that is sort of contradictory 21 

### to what we've been doing within the 22 

### regulations for testing our products. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com66

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### HRI system has developed several 2 

### good, what we feel are good, basic model group 3 

### definitions. And as Karim says and Jim also 4 

### mentioned, we have defined what that basic 5 

### model group is and we will submit that. 6 

### But what happens is you get a 7 

### larger number of models with the same general 8 

### characteristics combinations. But that also 9 

### creates a higher risk in that if there is a 10 

### failure all of those have to be rerated. So 11 

### while it appears that we are testing fewer we 12 

### are actually putting the emphasis on the 13 

### outdoor unit which in several documents from 14 

### Department of Energy the energy driver is, has 15 

### been identified, as the outdoor unit. So we 16 

### feel that that should be taken in 17 

### consideration that the outdoor unit is primary 18 

### in defining what the basic model group is. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 20 

### Yes. 21 

### MR. GRIFE: Good morning. My name 22 

### is David Grife with Arctic Industries. We are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com67

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### a manufacturer of walk-in coolers and freezers 2 

### and we say modular panels. Looking around, it 3 

### seems like there's a lot of people here from a 4 

### lot of different agencies, a lot of different 5 

### manufacturers and a lot of different 6 

### associations. 7 

### For the moment, I'm specifically 8 

### talking about walk-in coolers. This basic 9 

### model to listen to Ellis speak about the 10 

### differences, there are none. There is 11 

### absolutely no basic model in this industry. 12 

### So to stand here and say that I can do that is 13 

### something that would be untrue. Every single 14 

### part of it is custom. Every single dimension. 15 

### Every single refrigeration. Every door. 16 

### Every metal. Every change. 17 

### The thing that he did comment 18 

### about, Mr. Ellis, was about the panel. That 19 

### is something that we can work on, a cubic 20 

### square feet, a formula. But there is no basic 21 

### model. 22 

### Before I came here today, I pulled NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com68

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### up every single job that we have over the next 2 

### two months. I could not find barely any that 3 

### are identical. Every single one is different 4 

### and our customers demand it based upon their 5 

### requirement. A simple box as we would say of 6 

### 6' X 8' and someone says, "I want 6' X 9'" 7 

### would have the same refrigeration due to a 8 

### very small amount of change in the cubic foot. 9 

### Therefore you could look at energy 10 

### efficiency and they will be different. So 11 

### this basic model does not work. I really want 12 

### to make sure you hear it. It doesn't work for 13 

### our particular industry and the idea is to 14 

### help it work for us and our consumers which is 15 

### businesses. 16 

### Thank you. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 18 

### Andrew. And I'd call your 19 

### attention while Andrew is coming forward to 20 

### this specific example that DOE has in this 21 

### comment box so that some of you might address 22 

### this if you're able. Should DOE contemplate NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com69

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### proposing a specific regulation that requires 2 

### a new basic model certification when a 3 

### modification to a given basic model impacts 4 

### the energy characteristics of the product by 5 

### more than a de minimus percentage? So if 6 

### there is a response to that. 7 

### Andrew, you're next. 8 

### MR. deLASKI: I will respond to 9 

### that in a moment. But I want to ask actually 10 

### if you could go back to slide 10. I actually 11 

### was saving up a couple of comments on some of 12 

### the things that you were moving through 13 

### earlier. 14 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: No problem. 15 

### MR. deLASKI: Or actually slide 16 

### eight. 17 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Tell me 18 

### when it's up. 19 

### MR. deLASKI: So in your second 20 

### bullet there, in this proposed rule, you laid 21 

### out that you decided to defer a number of 22 

### issues. So I'd like to know. I'm interested NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com70

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### in hearing why did you decide to defer 2 

### addressing electric motors? 3 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead. Yes, go 4 

### ahead. 5 

### MS. WEINER: I'm Stephanie -- 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You need to get to 7 

### the microphone. 8 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Right behind you 9 

### is one if you want it. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 11 

### MS. WEINER: Hi. I'm Stephanie 12 

### Weiner from the General Counsel's office. 13 

### Electric motors as the rules are currently 14 

### written include many unique characteristics 15 

### and it's going to take more time to determine 16 

### how to harmonize that approach with the other 17 

### products. 18 

### MR. deLASKI: Okay. Thank you. 19 

### And in the same vein, I know there was lots of 20 

### comment on the verification testing 21 

### requirement or concept that was laid out in 22 

### the RFI. Yet you decided to defer this NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com71

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### critical issue. Why? 2 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think that 3 

### -- I think we needed more comments. So there's 4 

### a number of issues we'll get to. There's a 5 

### section in the presentation about verification 6 

### testing specifically. And we're asking for 7 

### additional comment and specifics on the 8 

### verification testing program should the 9 

### Department decide to propose one. 10 

### MR. deLASKI: Okay. And just to 11 

### echo some earlier comments, I mean one of the 12 

### challenges for us trying to comment on your 13 

### proposed rule today is that it lacks a 14 

### verification testing program. 15 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 16 

### MR. deLASKI: So to be explicit, 17 

### you know, you might be willing to say, "Okay. 18 

### The certification could be done for instance 19 

### by manufacturers if we had a good verification 20 

### program." You would be more concerned absent 21 

### a verification program that there be a more 22 

### perhaps rigorous initial certification and reNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com72

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### certification absent the verification program. 2 

### So you put us at a bit of a disadvantage in 3 

### commenting on the NOPR today because we don't 4 

### see the whole thing. 5 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6 

### MR. deLASKI: But I encourage the 7 

### Department to move quickly to address how you 8 

### would address your intent for how you would 9 

### cope with the verification piece. And I would 10 

### add that for laboratory accreditation as well. 11 

### It's a critical piece for how these things fit 12 

### together as well as the other bullets here 13 

### that you've -- the VICP approach. These are 14 

### all critical issues that need to be addressed 15 

### quickly. 16 

### The next issue is on page 10. 17 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Andrew, can I turn 18 

### it around to you? To the extent that you have 19 

### specific proposals on what you'd like to see 20 

### the Department consider for any of those 21 

### things I would encourage you to submit them. 22 

### MR. deLASKI: Yes, and I would -- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com73

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### We have and we will. 2 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: And specifically 4 

### other models that you've found to be 5 

### successful, that sort of thing, that's 6 

### especially helpful. 7 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 8 

### MR. deLASKI: Yeah. 9 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 10 

### McCabe. Adding to the request from Ashley 11 

### both to you, Andrew, and to everybody, a 12 

### number of these provisions that you've raised 13 

### we have a lot of, a fair, amount of experience 14 

### maybe with consumer products, for example, EPA 15 

### with their Energy Stars, adding verification, 16 

### laboratory accreditation. 17 

### But I'll remind everybody that 18 

### this program is dealing with consumer 19 

### products, commercial and industrial products, 20 

### plumbing products, dealing with SPAL, HVAC to 21 

### under 65,000 BTUs to very large 200,000 BTUs. 22 

### So as we move everything into one part in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com74

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### trying to take into account the wide range of 2 

### products we're needing to get additional 3 

### information so that when you make some 4 

### specific suggestions it would be particularly 5 

### useful if you recognize, everybody recognize, 6 

### that there are a wide range of products. 7 

### So if it -- If the recommendation 8 

### is appropriate for a particular type of 9 

### product, a particular let's say consumer 10 

### product, please identify that as for a 11 

### consumer product. And if there might be 12 

### something different that we should consider 13 

### for commercial, industrial or lighting please 14 

### highlight that. 15 

### MR. deLASKI: Thanks, Michael, for 16 

### that clarification. And I acknowledge. I 17 

### think the Department currently has standards 18 

### for I think by my count in the order of 50 19 

### product categories and within each of those 20 

### many subclasses. And I think that flexibility 21 

### is critical. And I think any one commentor 22 

### probably can't comment on the entire scope of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com75

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### 50 products and what's required as you've 2 

### already heard this morning from the walk-in 3 

### manufacturers and the air conditioner 4 

### manufacturers. 5 

### Each product requires some level 6 

### of flexibility and some specificity. But what 7 

### I also think it requires is transparency. So 8 

### if you go to the next slide, the slide with 9 

### the questions, you know I think it's -- I'm 10 

### glad DOE is asking the question of how the 11 

### manufacturer determines the basic model or 12 

### change to the basic model. 13 

### But I think ultimately it's a 14 

### question for the Department to need to clarify 15 

### through regulation. But we need transparent 16 

### description of what is a change in basic model 17 

### so that each stakeholder and a manufacturer 18 

### are playing by the same rules. And the very 19 

### part that the Department is asking the 20 

### question indicates that we have a problem on 21 

### our hands that the manufacturers are defining 22 

### this. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com76

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### And it may be very -- In the air 2 

### conditioning for example the process may be 3 

### very clear because there's a process carried 4 

### out by the industry. But for some of the 5 

### other products I think there may some real 6 

### serious issues with regard to how the basic 7 

### model is defined. 8 

### And then to answer the question on 9 

### the slide, yes. The Department certainly 10 

### should propose specific regulations that 11 

### require a new basic model certification when a 12 

### modification impacts the energy 13 

### characteristics. And what is the de minimus I 14 

### think will have to be determined on a product

15 

### by-product basis. There's no one answer. 16 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: To follow on to 17 

### Andrew's point, to the extent for which anyone 18 

### in this room and/or listening by Webinar could 19 

### provide the Department with the data or basis 20 

### or an indication or a proposal as to what that 21 

### percentage may be. That's kind of what we're 22 

### looking for in C. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com77

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### MR. deLASKI: And then one last 2 

### question for clarification. Why were ballasts 3 

### left out of the regulations up until now? You 4 

### mentioned EPACT 05 and EPACT 07 you were 5 

### filling in gaps. But yet ballasts date back 6 

### to EPACT 92. 7 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: EISA -- Our 8 

### proposal has ballasts in them today. 9 

### MR. deLASKI: Okay. All right. 10 

### Thank you. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 

### You're next. 13 

### MS. EARBS: Hello. My name is 14 

### Daryl Earbs. I'm with Manitowoc Food Service. 15 

### We're a manufacturer of various categories of 16 

### commercial refrigeration equipment. I have 17 

### two comments. 18 

### The first one is on this slide 19 

### where this is a question about requiring a new 20 

### basic model certification if we make changes 21 

### that impact energy characteristics. The 22 

### regulations are really one-sided, right? So NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com78

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### we have a confidence limit that we need to 2 

### make sure that we can satisfy statistically in 3 

### the products that we produce. 4 

### And there may be cases where we'll 5 

### improve the energy efficiency of the water use 6 

### of a product by some amount so that we have 7 

### better confidence. So we'll actually be 8 

### exceeding that confidence limit that we have 9 

### to satisfy relative to that metric. 10 

### Generally, it's in our interest to 11 

### report that to publish new performance 12 

### specifications. But there are sometimes cases 13 

### where because it's not a large enough change 14 

### to justify the cost to reprinting literature 15 

### and doing other things we may choose to give 16 

### the consumer, the purchaser of the equipment, 17 

### performance that exceeds what we're 18 

### advertising. And I guess I question the value 19 

### in forcing us to make that change if we as a 20 

### business have reasons that we feel it's really 21 

### not necessary to do that. 22 

### And then the follow-on which is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com79

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### even a bigger concern is where it's requiring 2 

### that we change the model number if we make a 3 

### change that would affect the energy or water 4 

### use of one of our basic models. We often will 5 

### change the product so that its performance is 6 

### improved. But we want to use the same model 7 

### number because those model numbers go into 8 

### selling systems. They go into our ERP system. 9 

### They have all sorts of system related cost if 10 

### we change that model number. 11 

### So in that case I would argue that 12 

### we should be able to publish and certify new 13 

### performance data but not be forced to change 14 

### the model number. In effect, we can give you 15 

### the new information for that model, but don't 16 

### ask us to take on the cost of changing all of 17 

### our systems to implement a new model number. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I 19 

### thought Kelley was next, but in fact I think, 20 

### Jennifer, you're next. Kelley corrected me. 21 

### MS. CLEARY: We think that 22 

### clearing uniform rules are really required in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com80

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### this area to give clarity and transparency to 2 

### the regulated industry. In fact, bright line 3 

### tests may even be appropriate in this area in 4 

### order to achieve that clarity. 5 

### In addition, we think that to echo 6 

### the comments of the gentleman before me that 7 

### manufacturers should have discretion regarding 8 

### rating so long as those ratings are supported 9 

### by test results. In other words, 10 

### manufacturers should retain the ability to 11 

### rate conservatively. Conservative reporting 12 

### must be permitted and encouraged to ensure 13 

### full compliance with the labeled value and the 14 

### Federal minimum or Energy Star limitation. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 16 

### Kelley. 17 

### MS. KLINE: This is Kelley Kline 18 

### from General Electric. Just to pick up on a 19 

### couple of other comments. In terms of the 20 

### definition of basic model, we would really 21 

### urge DOE to think of it more in terms of a 22 

### model family rather than a basic model. We NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com81

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### think that's kind of a misnomer. I mean in 2 

### addition to the examples that DOE mentions 3 

### about changes like in handles and things like 4 

### that you can see a group or a family of models 5 

### that share a common energy platform that can 6 

### have different feature and appearance 7 

### packages, baskets. I mean there are a lot of 8 

### different variables there that don't impact 9 

### energy but that do fall into the same energy 10 

### platform or model family. 11 

### And I guess I wanted to also pick 12 

### up on the last two comments and really 13 

### reiterate how important we think the question 14 

### is around the de minimus percentage question 15 

### that DOE is asking there. We think DOE's 16 

### interest really should be in ensuring that the 17 

### standards are met and we would urge DOE to not 18 

### take an overly restrictive approach for 19 

### manufacturers who have tested values that are 20 

### more efficient than the standard or the label. 21 

### And requiring a very narrow definition of 22 

### when a new model must be created for changes NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com82

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### in a product that is more efficient than the 2 

### standard in the label really could create a 3 

### lot of burden on the manufacturing community. 4 

### And we'll expand on this in our 5 

### comments, but it's not just manufacturing 6 

### expense but downstream expenses in terms of 7 

### changing out floor models, things like that, 8 

### that they really are quite significant 9 

### implications from a too-restrictive approach 10 

### so long as the manufacturer is, of course, 11 

### meeting the minimum compliance standard by 12 

### some margin. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 14 

### MR. McCABE: If I could follow up 15 

### with a question to you, Kelley. And it's 16 

### really -- This question is directed to all 17 

### those who have commented about basic models 18 

### and basic model families. 19 

### When we came up 30 years ago with 20 

### a concept of basic model it was in order to 21 

### reduce testing costs in order to take products 22 

### that have similar characteristics and the same NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com83

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### energy efficiency. With the comments that 2 

### have been made about taking or creating a 3 

### basic model family, taking and collapsing 4 

### basic models into a larger subset, is that not 5 

### putting the manufacturer at risk because in 6 

### one case you are reducing the testing cost? 7 

### But if you've got a collection of units that 8 

### may have different energy but similar energy 9 

### characteristics it may be possible that you 10 

### could end up having -- A unit could, this 11 

### large basic model could, end up failing and 12 

### the entire basic model could be found to be in 13 

### noncompliance either for a representation or 14 

### meeting the standard. 15 

### And so in comments I'd like -- 16 

### Think about it. Is there a risk to the 17 

### manufacturer on the other side? And if there 18 

### is, what would be a suggestion to deal with 19 

### it? Because again the concept of basic model 20 

### was to recognize testing burden, but also on 21 

### the other side it's enforcement as well. 22 

### MS. KLINE: Okay. We certainly NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com84

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### will think about that and respond with more 2 

### detail in the comments. But I at least have 3 

### always thought about that as the energy 4 

### performance remaining constant within the 5 

### model family and it really being the other 6 

### features that are differentiated. 7 

### MR. McCABE: Yeah. With some of 8 

### the other industries and we talk about the 9 

### basic model family within a split system 10 

### central air conditioner where you may have 11 

### different expansion devices you could end up 12 

### having theoretically different efficiencies 13 

### and a risk to the manufacturer. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You're next. 15 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski, 16 

### Baldor Electric Company. Just a comment, a 17 

### question, on the new Part 429 and what's going 18 

### to happen with motors. We'd like to know the 19 

### timing on that as soon as possible. 20 

### It seems like a lot of the changes 21 

### that are happening on how we register motors a 22 

### lot of things are happening here right at the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com85

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### end. We're 60 days from EISA compliance date. 2 

### All of our motor companies have been working 3 

### on changing our product lines over for three 4 

### years and now the game plan is changing 60 5 

### days out as to what we're expected to do and 6 

### there's not a lot of clarification from DOE on 7 

### what we're expected to do. 8 

### The inconsistency of answers. 9 

### There's no site to go to see what everything 10 

### is supposed to be. We're sort of in a 11 

### quandary as to what we're to do and now we're 12 

### hearing a new Part 429 is going to be posted 13 

### and we're going to talk about it later. Well, 14 

### we're kinda running out of time. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 16 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I make one 17 

### clarification there? So Part 429 as it's 18 

### being proposed today and pending revisions as 19 

### it will be finalized by the end of the year 20 

### will not have any provisions for electric 21 

### motors in it at that time. 22 

### Now the second round of rulemaking NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com86

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### we'll consider proposed revisions to those 2 

### that are currently found in 431. But at this 3 

### time the proposals for CCE or the regulations 4 

### for CCE for electric motors will stay in 431. 5 

### That should help at least a little bit. 6 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: That will help us 7 

### a little bit. Thank you. 8 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You're next please. 10 

### MS. CHANG: Christine Chang from 11 

### Natural Resources Defense Council. 12 

### We agree that the basic model 13 

### definition should not be overly broad because 14 

### we want to make sure that when you test one 15 

### product it accurately reflects the performance 16 

### of another product that's under the same 17 

### umbrella, under the same basic model umbrella. 18 

### That way we can ensure that if one product 19 

### fails then the entire basic model can be 20 

### subject to enforcement. 21 

### And I would like to point to the 22 

### California definition of basic model under NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com87

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### Title XX Section 602(a) a good model of how it 2 

### should be defined. And it states, "All units 3 

### of a given type of appliance or class thereof 4 

### that are manufactured by one manufacturer that 5 

### have the same primary energy source and that 6 

### do not have any differing electrical, 7 

### hydraulic, physical or functional 8 

### characteristics that affect energy 9 

### consumption." 10 

### Also I wanted to address the 11 

### specific question and say that NRDC supports 12 

### new basic model certification whenever there 13 

### is a change in energy usage, either an 14 

### increase or a decrease, more than a de minimus 15 

### threshold. And we would say that that would 16 

### depend on, the threshold would depend, on 17 

### which cover product you're dealing with. 18 

### However that generally it should not exceed 19 

### ten percent. 20 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 21 

### Yes. 22 

### MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli, Kysor NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com88

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### Panel Systems. We manufacture insulated 2 

### panels for walk-in coolers and freezers. At 3 

### Kysor, we do not manufacture refrigeration. 4 

### We do not build basic models. All of our 5 

### products are custom. We do not use model 6 

### numbers. We only define the walk-in by the R 7 

### value required. 8 

### The R value doesn't change. If 9 

### the box is 6' X 10' or 80' by 100' it's only R 10 

### value. So I'm not sure how a basic model 11 

### would apply to our product in this 12 

### application. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 14 

### Harmon, I think you're next and 15 

### then this gentleman. 16 

### MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis with 17 

### American Panel Corporation. Again, we walk-in 18 

### coolers and freezers guys all sound like a 19 

### broken record. But it's much the same. 20 

### Our problem -- Our product we 21 

### could set ten 6' X 8' walk-in coolers up here 22 

### or we start building walk-ins that are as big NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com89

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### as this room, as big as part of this building, 2 

### and you can't lump them into a basic model. 3 

### They do all come back to what is the 4 

### functionality of the individual panels and you 5 

### know we build about 2,000 panels every week. 6 

### And they're distributed all over the place for 7 

### size and shape. 8 

### So it all comes back to insulating 9 

### value. I know Doug's subcommittee if you can 10 

### call it that has probably turned out 1,000 11 

### pages from meetings that or Charles' that Doug 12 

### has moderated there. In the Thursday, 13 

### September 9th Federal Register there's a whole 14 

### energy conservative program for walk-in 15 

### coolers and freezers and the comments there 16 

### that they're looking for. 17 

### But that still doesn't quite come 18 

### back to the basic model testing and what we 19 

### probably need to do in looking at walk-ins is 20 

### look at the insulating value of the panels and 21 

### perhaps test one model size of a cooler, one 22 

### model size of a freezer and something that is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com90

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### an economical product, maybe 8' X 10' and 2 

### determine what that energy usage is between 3 

### the different manufacturers and do a rating 4 

### there. But that 8' X 10' is not the same as 5 

### an 80' X 100' or 100' X 300'. And we make all 6 

### different sizes day in and day out. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 8 

### I believe you're next. 9 

### MR. WISEMAN: Jim Wiseman, 10 

### Schneider Electric, manufacturers of the 11 

### Square D products, distribution transformers 12 

### among many others. I guess my comments are 13 

### probably most specific to distribution 14 

### transformers. 15 

### But what I'm hearing here is a lot 16 

### of the same and similar concerns we have with 17 

### the basic model designation. We do have basic 18 

### models. We think we probably have on the order 19 

### of 300. But if you throw in some of the 20 

### things that we've seen for discussion it could 21 

### be more on the order of 20,000 which gets to 22 

### the point of having no basic model again. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com91

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### So I think the work is going to 2 

### have to be in some manner to get some 3 

### specificity for the different product groups 4 

### that are being talked about and as an example 5 

### of that you know in the low voltage 6 

### transformers for example we would certainly 7 

### agree that as you change the number of phases, 8 

### the KVA rating, the insulation system, the 9 

### temperature rise rate and the winding 10 

### material, those are all going to be different 11 

### basic models. 12 

### But unlike most other electrical 13 

### equipment if you change the voltage it doesn't 14 

### necessarily result in a change in energy 15 

### consumption that's significant. And that's 16 

### one of our main concerns is that we need to 17 

### have some way of knowing that we will have the 18 

### ability to change voltages without changing 19 

### basic model. But we also feel the need to 20 

### have a level field among the industry. We 21 

### don't see how to get there unless there is 22 

### something that says that within the rules. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com92

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### MR. BROOKMAN: So the specifics in 2 

### writing. 3 

### MR. WISEMAN: Yes. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 5 

### I believe this gentleman was next. 6 

### Ellis, you're next. 7 

### MR. COULTER: My name is Greg 8 

### Coulter. I'm representing P:rolec General 9 

### Electric, also a distribution transformer 10 

### manufacturer. 11 

### And my comments also have to do 12 

### with basic model. It appears to us in the 13 

### rewrite of all this they were still trying to 14 

### carve out distribution transformers similar to 15 

### the way it was in the previous regulations. 16 

### And we find some inconsistencies there because 17 

### as we read the new regulation it looks like we 18 

### have to list every basic model inside a KVA 19 

### where previously a KVA was the basic model. 20 

### For a large percentage of our 21 

### product, each unit is a basic model. So we 22 

### would listing every unit model number. This NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com93

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### now becomes public record. People will be 2 

### able to tell every transformer we make. They 3 

### would know our volume which is a big concern 4 

### to us in a very competitive industry. 5 

### We feel something similar to what 6 

### was in the earlier rules where KVA was the 7 

### basic model and then when we only had to list 8 

### the least deficient KVAs, the least deficient 9 

### models, inside the KVA and if any new least 10 

### deficient model came along, we would then 11 

### notify you. If we do it now every time we 12 

### make a new model, it looks like we have to 13 

### notify you which would be every week we're 14 

### sending 150, 200 new notifications. 15 

### We hope that this is just a 16 

### problem with the rewrite rather than a basic 17 

### change to the whole principle. 18 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ellis. 20 

### MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig 21 

### Industries. 22 

### I'm assuming that the whole NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com94

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### purpose of this whole project we're working on 2 

### is to reduce the energy usage of American 3 

### industry and private use out there. And one 4 

### thing that's concerning me with the basic 5 

### model concept, there seems to be 6 

### conservational ideas that if we get this more 7 

### defined and more basic models tested that 8 

### we'll have better control over this. 9 

### But the more you define basic 10 

### model to be tighter the more testing that's 11 

### required. The more testing that's required 12 

### then manufacturers have a lot less incentive 13 

### to improve their products. Because if they do 14 

### improve their products, it's going to cost a 15 

### lot of money to have testing done again. 16 

### So it's a concern of ours that the 17 

### -- You know, we're a small company and if it 18 

### costs us $100,000 to test our products and we 19 

### come up with a great new idea that's a better 20 

### insulator, we might want to go to vacuum pack 21 

### or whatever we come up with that's in the 22 

### industry that's lower in its price we have no NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com95

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### incentive to go do it because it would cost so 2 

### much money that we couldn't afford to do it 3 

### again. So the net result is we end up with 4 

### same old product out there for the next 20 or 5 

### 30 years because it costs too much money to 6 

### innovate. So that's a concern of ours. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 8 

### Other comments on these slides? 9 

### Yes, Harmon, and then we're going to move on. 10 

### MR. LEWIS: Right. One quick one. 11 

### Harmon Lewis from American Panel and putting 12 

### on my refrigeration hat because we also build 13 

### refrigeration systems, both packaged and 14 

### split. I felt bad because we had 8,736 15 

### different models and we're about a $24 million 16 

### company annual sales. After hearing Ingersoll 17 

### Rand's problem, I'm just going to ask him how 18 

### he solves it and mimic it. 19 

### But the testing on refrigeration 20 

### will be just as awkward for the walk-in 21 

### manufacturers that build them based on the 22 

### total number of models involved and the size NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com96

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### of the companies. The testing burden could put 2 

### us out of business. 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 4 

### So I think final comments on this 5 

### subject. I think we'll take one more series 6 

### of slides and see where we are with respect to 7 

### our break. 8 

### Ashley. 9 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's just 10 

### one more slide actually. So some of you 11 

### touched on this in your comments. But basic 12 

### model numbers. DOE is proposing in the NOPR 13 

### to require manufacturers to change the basic 14 

### model number whenever a new basic model is 15 

### created. 16 

### Define a manufacturer model number 17 

### as the unique identifier by which the product 18 

### is sold. DOE is not proposing a specific 19 

### particular system. Manufacturers may do that 20 

### at their discretion, just that it is unique 21 

### and then in addition to that within each basic 22 

### model numbering you would identify in your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com97

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### certification report all the individual model 2 

### numbers that fall under that basic model 3 

### number. 4 

### Comments? No? Great. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes please. Ellis. 6 

### MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig 7 

### Industries. 8 

### I want to make it very clear that 9 

### in the walk-in business we don't have a model 10 

### number number one at all right now. It would 11 

### be impossible for us to come up with model 12 

### numbers of walk-ins because everything is 13 

### custom. It's been said but -- 14 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: How do you track 15 

### your walk-ins? What do you use? What 16 

### systematic do you use to do that? 17 

### MR. CRAIG: There -- Every one is 18 

### built custom. So every systematic is 19 

### different than the last systematic. 20 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you use a name? 21 

### What naming convention? 22 

### MR. CRAIG: The only thing that we NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com98

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### use is dimensions. That's it. So it's an 8' X 2 

### 10' X 7'6". 3 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 4 

### MR. CRAIG: That's what we use. 5 

### So in every walk-in that we manufacture is 6 

### different than the last walk-in and it's all 7 

### manufactured differently. So therefore we 8 

### don't have -- No one calls in and says, "Give 9 

### me a 1095." You know it just doesn't happen. 10 

### We wish it did. Believe me. In 11 

### our industry we would love to have that 12 

### happen. 13 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Maybe we can help 14 

### you out. 15 

### MR. CRAIG: It doesn't work that 16 

### way. So this numbering system would be 17 

### something it would not work the way we're 18 

### doing business. I don't see how it could 19 

### work. 20 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 22 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I appreciate that. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com99

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let this 2 

### gentleman go next. Same subject I think. 3 

### MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli, Kysor 4 

### Panel. 5 

### I would just like to reiterate. We 6 

### do not as Mr. Craig we do not use model 7 

### numbers. Every job is drawn custom. The only 8 

### separation for us in the panel business is 9 

### panel thickness which is directly related to R 10 

### value and we're doing a C518 to get R value. 11 

### That is the basic model testing that we do. 12 

### We do not build basic models. How 13 

### can we test some predetermined or DOE 14 

### determined box if it has nothing to do with 15 

### the products we build? 16 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Got it. 18 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes. 20 

### MR. BASSO: Dale Basso, WEG 21 

### Electric. Also Vice Chairman of the NEMA 22 

### Motor Generator section. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com100

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### I know this is motors. I assume 2 

### it still applies to your thinking though. 3 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 4 

### MR. BASSO: And speaking for motor 5 

### manufacturers in general probably half our 6 

### business is stock and model number type, stuff 7 

### that can get in the catalog. But the other 8 

### half is unique identifiers. And when we say 9 

### it doesn't build off a smart part number 10 

### because in the catalog in the last place I was 11 

### we had 10 25 

### possibilities of combinations and 12 

### permutations of a product just by building a 13 

### custom motor out of a catalog. So each one of 14 

### them gets a serial number and that becomes the 15 

### unique identifier. 16 

### But you can't make that a smart 17 

### part number that builds off a basic model. So 18 

### it would become impossible. And as somebody 19 

### else mentioned it would be a matter of us 20 

### shipping or submitting data to you on a daily 21 

### basis for all the motors we're shipping. It 22 

### would be burdensome for both our companies and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com101

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### for the DOE to manage. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 3 

### Frank Stanonik. 4 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with 5 

### HRI. 6 

### Ashley, can you go back to the 7 

### previous slide? The one that had your model 8 

### number example. 9 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. We'll get 10 

### there maybe. 11 

### (Off the record comment.) 12 

### MR. STANONIK: Well, why you're 13 

### doing that -- Okay. There it was. 14 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 15 

### MR. STANONIK: Lost it. My 16 

### question is in the example you provided 17 

### between the basic model and the associated 18 

### models they all still had the same four or 19 

### five same letters, numbers, at the beginning. 20 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Did you want this 21 

### one? Sixteen, that one? Is that the one? 22 

### MR. STANONIK: That was the one NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com102

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### that she had up before that. 2 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: This one? 3 

### MR. STANONIK: Yeah, that one. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: That one. 5 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6 

### MR. STANONIK: And I hope if I'm 7 

### belaboring the obvious I'll apologize. But 8 

### I'm assuming you just did that for 9 

### illustration purposes. 10 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 11 

### MR. STANONIK: And it won't 12 

### preclude a private brander who would have a 13 

### totally different modeling number scheme but 14 

### in fact clearly the model is associated in 15 

### your case with ABC123. 16 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. This is 17 

### just illustrative completely. We're not 18 

### proposing any specific scheme. 19 

### MR. STANONIK: So DOE would only 20 

### want to know the model numbers of the 21 

### associated model. You don't have to -- 22 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. We would NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com103

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### want to know how you mesh those together. In 2 

### other words, which one is the basic model 3 

### number and what are all the individual model 4 

### numbers falling into that basic model number? 5 

### MR. STANONIK: Okay. 6 

### MR. McCABE: Following up on that 7 

### and actually putting a question back to you 8 

### and to everybody, but particularly for 9 

### products such as where you have the motors and 10 

### granted motors are not part of this, but we 11 

### will be considering it. Distribution 12 

### transformers are with the walk-in coolers, 13 

### walk-in freezers. But central air, split 14 

### systems and central air conditioners, all 15 

### those products where either there are unique 16 

### units, they're one of a kind, or you may have 17 

### multiple -- The OEM may be shipping the 18 

### product to different private labelers and they 19 

### come up with different model numbers. 20 

### A specific suggestion whether or 21 

### not it's a product specific suggestion or a 22 

### general suggestion as to how we can track NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com104

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### those units that are part of that basic model, 2 

### model family or whatever, because again this 3 

### deals not only with reducing testing burden so 4 

### that a basic model, a model family, whatever 5 

### you test it as little as possible in order to 6 

### ensure the rating compliance with the standard 7 

### and that the rating on the energy guide label 8 

### or representations of it are correct. 9 

### You know we're looking to reduce 10 

### the burden. But on the other hand we do not 11 

### want to increase the cost and increase the 12 

### risk to manufacturers. So if you have a 13 

### number of individual units that really should 14 

### be treated as a basic model, how do we 15 

### identify those so that we don't end up going 16 

### out and identifying far more products as being 17 

### covered by an action, a negative action, that 18 

### would have a cost as well to the manufacturers 19 

### and disrupt not only the manufacturer's 20 

### activities but also distributors and 21 

### retailers? So how should we identify? How do 22 

### we identify those unique products? How do we NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com105

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### identify those products that are made by one 2 

### OEM and sold on a number of different labels? 3 

### MR. STANONIK: Mike, at least 4 

### speaking from AHI's experience certainly when 5 

### it comes to models that are built in large 6 

### quantities that's been a challenge for us 7 

### since we've been running certifications 8 

### programs either historically ARI or GAMMA. 9 

### And so we can certainly give you some 10 

### suggestions on how we've been wrestling with 11 

### that. 12 

### As far as the one-ofs, I'm going 13 

### to say I don't have as much experience with 14 

### that. But we'll see if we can offer some 15 

### ideas. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you 17 

### Yes. 18 

### MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with 19 

### Mitsubishi Electric. 20 

### It just seems that in requiring 21 

### basic model definitions and then getting into 22 

### specifics on model numbers as the example NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com106

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### here, it's kinda of contradictory and limits 2 

### the definition on the basic model group. 3 

### Our suggestion would be that allow 4 

### us to define the basic model groups and then 5 

### submit a report to you listing what those 6 

### basic models are. That would be far easier 7 

### than trying to finagle something like the 8 

### example here. Just a report listing basic 9 

### model one, basic model two and everything 10 

### that's included in that. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 12 

### Other comments on this subject? 13 

### (No verbal response.) 14 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Take a break. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, let's take a 16 

### break. Before anybody leaves, you need to -- 17 

### Most of you when you came in got a visitor's 18 

### badge. You need to have it on you. There's a 19 

### coffee shop straight down the hallway this way 20 

### (Indicating). A Dunkin Donuts and up the 21 

### escalator right as you exit the door to the 22 

### left there's a big cafeteria. So there's food NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com107

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### and the like. I suspect we probably might go 2 

### a little past noon and say 12:30 p.m. or maybe 3 

### a little later before we break for lunch the 4 

### way this is going. 5 

### If there are foreign nationals 6 

### here in attendance, I think you need an escort 7 

### to be wandering around. I think that's the 8 

### latest from Security. So find me in the front 9 

### of the room. We'll get you an escort if 10 

### you're a foreign national. 11 

### We're going to break for 15 12 

### minutes. It's now almost 10:40 a.m. So we'll 13 

### resume at 10:55 a.m. Off the record. 14 

### (Whereupon, a short recess was 15 

### taken.) 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's get back to 17 

### the matter at hand. We are on Slide 17 or so. 18 

### And we're going to hear from Laura Barhydt, 19 

### same basic configuration. Laura? 20 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So as Ashley 21 

### mentioned, most of the changes that are being 22 

### proposed are not really changes. We're moving NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com108

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### things around quite a bit. 2 

### One of the things that we are 3 

### proposing to change, however, is currently the 4 

### regulations have more or less a one-time 5 

### filing requirement. If you have a new basic 6 

### model, it must be certified before it is 7 

### distributed in commerce. And we are proposing 8 

### to switch to an annual certification. 9 

### We have proposed a schedule that 10 

### would align that with the FTC's certification 11 

### requirement for those products that are 12 

### required to be certified to the Federal Trade 13 

### Commission. And we are not proposing that you 14 

### have to test it each year. We did get some 15 

### initial comments that indicated that that may 16 

### have been an area of confusion. So I wanted 17 

### to clarify that. 18 

### This is a subset of the 19 

### certification schedule that we have proposed. 20 

### And it has some of the different deadlines 21 

### that we have proposed. This is only a subset. 22 

### And we have tried to group the products so NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com109

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### that similar products or the certification is 2 

### due at the same time so that for any given 3 

### manufacturer, hopefully they would only have 4 

### to submit one certification report a year. 5 

### Currently each manufacturer or 6 

### private labeler must have a compliance 7 

### statement on file as well as submit the 8 

### certification report. We are proposing to 9 

### change that so that the compliance statement 10 

### is included on the certification report. It 11 

### would not be a separate filing requirement any 12 

### more. 13 

### We are also standardizing some of 14 

### the information that would be required to be 15 

### reported. You can see a list there of some of 16 

### the different types of information. 17 

### Some of this is new information 18 

### that is not currently required, such as 19 

### information related to waivers, exemptions, 20 

### and alternative rating methods. 21 

### If you filled out the compliance 22 

### statement previously, you see that it requires NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com110

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### you to certify that you have done testing in 2 

### accordance with DOE's test procedure. And 3 

### obviously that is a problem if you have not 4 

### done the testing in accordance with the DOE 5 

### test procedure because the model is subject to 6 

### a waiver or an exemption. So basically that 7 

### change is just to reflect the reality that not 8 

### everything has actually been tested in 9 

### accordance with the DOE test procedure. 10 

### Ashley already covered that we are 11 

### proposing to require individual model numbers 12 

### covered by a basic model to be reported. We 13 

### are also adding the sample size, number of 14 

### units tested, basically give us a little bit 15 

### more information about what exactly is being 16 

### tested and more information so that we can 17 

### verify that the regulations are being 18 

### followed. 19 

### We are adding reporting 20 

### requirements for products that were not 21 

### previously subject to certification reporting 22 

### requirements. And there are specific NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com111

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### product-specific reporting requirements for 2 

### all products now. Previously there were some 3 

### products where you basically just had to 4 

### certify that the models need to be standard. 5 

### Particularly in situations where 6 

### there was a design requirement, as opposed to 7 

### a performance standard, now all products have 8 

### specific information that we're proposing 9 

### would have to be submitted. So you should 10 

### look for your own individual products to the 11 

### proposed 10 CFR 429.19(b)(13) for what those 12 

### specific requirements would be for the 13 

### products that are relevant to you. 14 

### Currently each basic model must be 15 

### certified. And that can be done by the 16 

### manufacturer or by the private labeler. We 17 

### would hold either party responsible. We are 18 

### proposing to change that so that the 19 

### manufacturer is the responsible party. 20 

### Under the statute, manufacturer 21 

### includes an importer. So if you're an 22 

### importer, you're treated as the manufacturer. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com112

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### And you would be subject to the reporting 2 

### requirement. 3 

### Private labelers would be 4 

### permitted to do the certification on behalf of 5 

### the manufacturer as a third party certifier, 6 

### but they would not be the ones responsible if 7 

### the certification was not filed. It would be 8 

### the manufacturers. 9 

### And if anyone has any questions or 10 

### comments as I go through, feel free to stand 11 

### up and move towards a microphone. 12 

### So currently manufacturers or 13 

### private labelers may use a third party to 14 

### submit he certification reports to the 15 

### Department of Energy. And that party is 16 

### ultimately responsible for the submission of 17 

### the certification report to DOE, not the third 18 

### party certifier. 19 

### Under the proposed requirement, we 20 

### would continue to permit the third party 21 

### certification. And the private labeler could 22 

### act as that third party certifier. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com113

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### One of the things that we are 2 

### proposing to change is that a poor history of 3 

### performance by a third party certification 4 

### entity, we could refuse to accept that person 5 

### as the third party certifier if they routinely 6 

### either didn't submit or were submitting 7 

### incorrect information. And that's really to 8 

### protect the manufacturer from relying on 9 

### somebody that DOE has determined is not 10 

### reliable. 11 

### Currently you can submit the 12 

### certification reports and the compliance 13 

### statements through certified mail, e-mail, and 14 

### our new certification compliance management 15 

### system, CCMS. 16 

### That was a very recent change. If 17 

### you flip back to the slide early on, that sort 18 

### of had the history of the CCE rulemaking 19 

### process. It was earlier this year that we 20 

### added the new options. 21 

### We're actually proposing to cut 22 

### back so that CCMS will be the sole method of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com114

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### submission. We have had very positive 2 

### feedback from people using CCMS, and we think 3 

### that that is the best way going forward. 4 

### MR. DOPPEL: Laura? 5 

### MS. BARHYDT: Yes? 6 

### MR. DOPPEL: If you could go back? 7 

### Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. 8 

### If you could go back just a couple 9 

### of slides for what you're requiring on your 10 

### certification statement. Right there. Okay. 11 

### Right there it seems that you're asking us to 12 

### identify everything that's within that basic 13 

### model. 14 

### That's what I was suggesting 15 

### before, that, instead of trying to do some 16 

### configuration of model numbers to -- you know, 17 

### right here is where we would be telling you 18 

### everything that's in that basic model. 19 

### MS. BARHYDT: Right. 20 

### MR. DOPPEL: So, rather than -- so 21 

### our recommendation would be to just leave that 22 

### model number part out. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com115

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer? 2 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Hang on one 3 

### second, though. So, just as a clarifying 4 

### point, I don't think the other slide is 5 

### inconsistent with this slide. And the other 6 

### slide is not proposing any specific basic 7 

### model numbering system or model numbering 8 

### system. 9 

### It's saying the same thing. 10 

### Basically any -- you identify the basic model 11 

### number. And then you also identify all the 12 

### individual model numbers that fall in that 13 

### grouping. And that's what both slides were 14 

### meant to show. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: I see there are 16 

### some other commenters. Jennifer? And then 17 

### we'll go to this gentleman. 18 

### MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary. 19 

### I think we will provide some 20 

### written comments, but we do have concerns that 21 

### some of this information, while it should 22 

### certainly be reported to DOE, may be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com116

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### confidential business information; for 2 

### example, the private labeler in some 3 

### circumstances. And we'll provide much more 4 

### detail on that later. 5 

### I was also wondering if you could 6 

### give some insight as to why you would like to 7 

### know the sample size. It would help us in our 8 

### comments to know what the reasoning behind 9 

### requesting that information is. 10 

### MS. BARHYDT: One of the things 11 

### that we have encountered is that people are 12 

### not testing in accordance with our sampling 13 

### plan. And so that is a way for us to actually 14 

### verify compliance with the regulations. 15 

### MS. CLEARY: Thank you. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You're next. 17 

### MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 18 

### Manufacturing. 19 

### Two comments. Number one is that, 20 

### obviously, there is an issue of transparency 21 

### here, when and if this material will be 22 

### public. And if it is public, we just moved NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com117

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### into a transparent mode. 2 

### The annual reporting will be 3 

### problematic because you could have 11, almost 4 

### 12 months later data on someone else's 5 

### product, which is in the market but has not 6 

### been reported until the August deadline if 7 

### they introduce it September 1st as a product. 8 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, to 9 

### clarify, the requirement to certify a basic 10 

### model before it enters commerce does not 11 

### change. 12 

### MR. HON: Okay. 13 

### MS. BARHYDT: So you still have to 14 

### certify before a model enters commerce. Then 15 

### after that, there would be an annual reporting 16 

### requirement. So we are not getting rid of the 17 

### requirement to actually certify prior to 18 

### introduction into commerce. 19 

### MR. HON: Good. That is what we 20 

### were hoping to hear. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes? Let 22 

### this gentleman follow on. Yes? Go ahead. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com118

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### MR. DOPPEL: Laura, you mentioned 2 

### enter into. Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. 3 

### You mentioned enter into commerce. 4 

### And we've looked at the definition. And it's 5 

### like wide open. So is there a way to get more 6 

### clarification on exactly what you mean by it 7 

### because with Mitsubishi, obviously we're 8 

### importing some of our products? 9 

### MS. BARHYDT: Introduction into 10 

### commerce includes importation. 11 

### MR. DOPPEL: Right. But if you 12 

### have a meeting with distributors prior to 13 

### certifying the product, is that introducing 14 

### into commerce? Because that could be within 15 

### your definition. 16 

### MS. BARHYDT: I think we will have 17 

### to learn more about the specifics of what 18 

### you're envisioning because I'm not sure I 19 

### understand. One other thing -- 20 

### MR. DOPPEL: According to what you 21 

### say, we cannot enter the comments before the 22 

### product is certified to DOE. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com119

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### MS. BARHYDT: Correct. 2 

### MR. DOPPEL: So the way we read 3 

### that, that would preclude us from having 4 

### meetings with our distributors or with other 5 

### groups to tell them about this product until 6 

### -- and then a lot of times as you're 7 

### developing products, testing is one of the 8 

### last things that occurs prior to manufacturing 9 

### or within a couple of months. 10 

### So what you're saying would sort 11 

### of prevent us from doing any preliminary 12 

### introduction of the product, discussion of the 13 

### product until it was certified. And then that 14 

### limits our ability to talk to our 15 

### distributors, talk to our contractors about 16 

### the product to get them the information that 17 

### they need. 18 

### Especially if you're doing large 19 

### commercial products, there's a six to 20 

### nine-month lead time in designing for these 21 

### systems. 22 

### MS. BARHYDT: So currently this is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

### -- 120

1 

### not a change in the requirement. So clearly 2 3 

### MR. DOPPEL: Well, commercial HVAC 4 

### systems have not previously -- 5 

### MS. BARHYDT: Oh, okay. So 6 

### specifically for the commercial. 7 

### MR. DOPPEL: -- been certified. 8 

### So commercial HVAC systems, this could be a 9 

### potential problem. 10 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. If you'll 11 

### provide all of that in your written comments, 12 

### that would be great. 13 

### MR. McCABE: This is Mike McCabe. 14 

### And following up on that, are there other 15 

### products for which that may be an issue as 16 

### well? And given some of the discussion that 17 

### took place in the previous session about the 18 

### walk-in coolers, walk-in freezers, where 19 

### everyone is different, that I presume that 20 

### there may be some discussions that are taking 21 

### place that would be of the same sort. 22 

### Similarly with the transformers, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com121

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### that may be the case as well. So I would ask 2 

### for anybody who has an issue that follows 3 

### along those lines, to let us know as far as 4 

### for their products and offer any specific 5 

### suggestions. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Karim, you're next. 7 

### And any other persons who wish to comment on 8 

### Michael's point, then, stand up. 9 

### MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 10 

### I have a question about the total 11 

### number of tests performed. In the case of 12 

### central A/C, split systems, in particular, you 13 

### don't have to test everything. You have to 14 

### test only the highest split combination. And 15 

### then for the other combination, you can use an 16 

### alternative working method. 17 

### MS. BARHYDT: Right. So what 18 

### we're proposing is that you would indicate 19 

### that for this basic model, this is how many 20 

### were actually tested and this is how many were 21 

### -- these are the ones that were subject to an 22 

### ARM. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com122

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please? Your 2 

### name? 3 

### MR. NICHOLS: Jeff Nichols, 4 

### Johnson Controls. 5 

### Just kind of piling on with Mr. 6 

### Doppel and Mr. Karim -- 7 

### (Laughter.) 8 

### MR. NICHOLS: Okay. So total 9 

### number of tests performed. So in the case of 10 

### a split system, residential product, if it is 11 

### a match that it was not the highest sales 12 

### volume, cold combination, but it was done with 13 

### ARM, that would be no on that basic model 14 

### group that's listed zero test? And then you 15 

### have to list your -- 16 

### MS. BARHYDT: And then you would 17 

### identify that that rating was based on an ARM. 18 

### MR. NICHOLS: Okay. So, then, 19 

### based on an ARM or do we have to submit the 20 

### letter that we have from DOE approving the ARM 21 

### or -- 22 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I think -- and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com123

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### this is off the top of my head. It's spelled 2 

### out pretty specifically in the regulation or 3 

### in the proposed regulations what we need, but 4 

### I think it's the date of approval for the ARM. 5 

### MR. NICHOLS: Date of approval for 6 

### the ARM? 7 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Since the ARMs 8 

### have to be approved prior to the -- 9 

### MR. NICHOLS: And then on the 10 

### promotion side of introducing, I'm going to 11 

### say it this way. We would want to promote our 12 

### product before we go to market to get it in 13 

### front of our customers so that we can build 14 

### some excitement. 15 

### So the question is, do I have to 16 

### hold off on promoting it until I have provided 17 

### my certification? Because often the 18 

### certification data won't be ready until just 19 

### before we start building it and putting it 20 

### into the marketplace. 21 

### So that's the point of 22 

### clarification we would like to -- I would like NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com124

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### to understand. 2 

### MS. BARHYDT: I don't think that I 3 

### am going to be able to answer that one off the 4 

### spot, but -- 5 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I ask a 6 

### question about that? When you promote your 7 

### product, do you say anything about its energy 8 

### efficiency characteristics in that promotion? 9 

### MR. NICHOLS: Very often. We talk 10 

### about generalities. And sometimes we may have 11 

### details, but we may have finished the testing 12 

### but have not done the submittal, the 13 

### certification submittal. 14 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 15 

### MR. NICHOLS: So I guess 16 

### understanding the details there. 17 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 18 

### MR. DOPPEL: That is along the 19 

### same lines as I was talking about. And that 20 

### would apply to residential systems as well as 21 

### commercial systems in that you know what 22 

### you're designing for efficiency-wise and you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com125

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### have your target. But the actual final 2 

### testing doesn't take place until maybe a 3 

### couple of months prior to manufacture. 4 

### But you need additional time to 5 

### get the information out to get your customer 6 

### base aware of this product so they can start 7 

### preparing their contractors or engineers to 8 

### use this product for wherever they're doing 9 

### that. 10 

### So without having clear definition 11 

### of put into commerce and with certification 12 

### tied to that, we're very hamstrung. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ellis? 14 

### MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig 15 

### Industries. 16 

### I also want to bring that affects 17 

### out industry, can affect our industry, also, 18 

### such as a new insulation material that became 19 

### available. We can implement that new 20 

### insulation material within a week technically, 21 

### but now we can't even promote it until we -- 22 

### even though the testing may be done on the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com126

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### insulation, now we have to recertify it and go 2 

### through all of this process, testing of the 3 

### basis unit, or whatever we come up with. 4 

### So we can't promote that product 5 

### also until the -- the insulation may come out, 6 

### but we can't do anything with it. If it's 7 

### twice our value water, we couldn't do anything 8 

### with it until we -- so this is a process that 9 

### could affect us in being able to market the 10 

### product on a timely basis, which would promote 11 

### higher energy efficiency products in the 12 

### field. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 14 

### Frank? 15 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 16 

### AHRI. 17 

### I just want to clarify because I 18 

### really didn't get the answer on the number of 19 

### tests. So let's say I'm testing a basic model 20 

### of a water heater because I can talk about 21 

### water heaters. So I've tested four units. 22 

### And I tell DOE I've tested four units. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com127

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### DOE wants to know if I happen to 2 

### have tested each of those units, let's say, 3 

### two or three times? They need to know that? 4 

### MS. BARHYDT: No. So -- 5 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: That is what we 6 

### ask for. 7 

### MR. STANONIK: Pardon me? 8 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So that is what it 9 

### asks for, right? 10 

### MR. STANONIK: That is what I am 11 

### reading. And that's why I am confused. 12 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what it 13 

### asks for. 14 

### MS. BARHYDT: Your certification 15 

### is based on a calculation. What numbers did 16 

### you put into that calculation? 17 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 18 

### McCabe. 19 

### MR. STANONIK: All right. Well -- 20 

### MR. McCABE: If I may follow up on 21 

### your question, Frank, -- 22 

### MR. STANONIK: Yes. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com128

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### MR. McCABE: -- because it wasn't 2 

### clear. When you talked about a unit being 3 

### tested multiple times, were you talking about 4 

### an individual unit or a number of units, an 5 

### individual unit to be tested multiple times, 6 

### or were you talking about a number of units of 7 

### the basic model being tested? 8 

### MR. STANONIK: No. Okay. My 9 

### sample is four. That doesn't vary. I was 10 

### talking about that if I happened to decide 11 

### that I wanted to test each of the samples 12 

### three times to determine my rating; whereas, I 13 

### really only need to test them each once, I 14 

### then have to tell DOE that. 15 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, the 16 

### answer is we are asking for that information 17 

### to the extent for which you think we should 18 

### rethink that. But I would say that there is 19 

### some confusion about whether you test four 20 

### samples or one sample four times. So this is 21 

### a way for DOE to understand what is being 22 

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### MR. STANONIK: Okay. All right. 2 

### Well, certainly for residential products, I am 3 

### not aware that any of our members had an 4 

### impression that sampling testing allowed the 5 

### possibility of taking one unit and just doing 6 

### repeatability tests. 7 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: And it depends. 8 

### Our sampling provisions are to a certain 9 

### extent part-specific but usually are around 10 

### sample size, not number -- 11 

### MR. STANONIK: I would suggest at 12 

### least the possibility that maybe that only 13 

### needs to be recorded if, in fact, the 14 

### manufacturer tested each unit more than once 15 

### if that's really something that needs to be 16 

### done, but -- 17 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, then I will 18 

### ask the question to you and the manufacturers 19 

### in the room that when you determine the rating 20 

### that you are going to certify to DOE, do you 21 

### base it just on that single test or do you -- 22 

### the single test for each sample or if you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com130

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### happen to do three tests, do you take an 2 

### average over those three tests for each sample 3 

### and then some average there and then run the 4 

### sampling procedures? We're trying to 5 

### understand what people are doing. 6 

### MR. STANONIK: Okay. And then a 7 

### very different point here that has gnawed at 8 

### me a little bit. There is certainly this 9 

### indication that every basic model has to go 10 

### through the sampling. Okay? 11 

### And I would pose to you that there 12 

### may be circumstances -- again, I have been a 13 

### company that has been in business for 30-40 14 

### years. And I have been dealing with 15 

### efficiency regulations for as long as that. 16 

### And so I know my product. Okay? 17 

### And so I've got this model X. And 18 

### for market reasons, I'm creating a new basic 19 

### model, especially with this new definition. 20 

### I'm creating a new basic model where I've just 21 

### added some other feature, whatever. Okay? I 22 

### have a wealth of data on model X. My new NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com131

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### model I'm going to call Y. Okay? 2 

### I believe that the manufacturer 3 

### does have the option that he could test model 4 

### Y once -- okay? -- and decide to 5 

### conservatively rate. Again, his obligation is 6 

### the rating has to be no more than he claims. 7 

### Let me rephrase that. He can't overclaim his 8 

### rating. Okay? 9 

### But it seems to me a manufacturer 10 

### does have an option. With knowledge, let's 11 

### say, of similar designs and things, he could 12 

### take this new model, test it once, and because 13 

### of desires to get it to the market for other 14 

### reasons, -- as much as energy efficiency is 15 

### important, we do sell products for other 16 

### reasons. Okay? -- and decide to 17 

### conservatively rate it. I would say he is 18 

### complying, but he hasn't done sampling in the 19 

### rigorous definition I think we're seeing here. 20 

### And I'm not sure that's right. 21 

### I'm not sure it's right that he would have to 22 

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### We'll make a comment. 2 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I look 3 

### forward to it. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Hey, Frank? Frank? 5 

### Frank, I didn't quite get it. By telling the 6 

### Department of Energy how you are doing your 7 

### sampling, that is some additional burden? 8 

### MR. STANONIK: No. I am saying if 9 

### it was to be rigorously enforced, sampling 10 

### certainly implies at least two tests and 11 

### probably more. Okay? I am claiming that 12 

### there are circumstances where a manufacturer 13 

### could comply with the regulations and only 14 

### test one unit of this new basic model one 15 

### time. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 17 

### MR. STANONIK: You know, it would 18 

### be a Saturday check that what he predicted or 19 

### what he believed he had made, in fact, 20 

### happened. 21 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 22 

### McCabe, just following up on Frank. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com133

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### So what you are describing one 2 

### could say is that the manufacturer is 3 

### considering that the new model to be the same 4 

### basic model as another one based on the test 5 

### that they could be using. And one scenario 6 

### could be that the modified an existing basic 7 

### model. 8 

### Based on their knowledge, they 9 

### understand the product that should be 10 

### performing in the same way or similar to that 11 

### of the basic model or, for whatever marketing 12 

### reason, they're considering a different model 13 

### and they're just testing one unit of that new 14 

### model to verify their thoughts. 15 

### And they're giving it a 16 

### conservative rating, which is the same rating 17 

### as that basic model that it grew out of and 18 

### that, in effect, they're considering that to 19 

### be part of the same basic model. 20 

### MR. STANONIK: Mike, that is 21 

### certainly a lot of it except that as currently 22 

### constructed, they probably couldn't call it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com134

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### the same basic model. You know, a lot of this 2 

### goes back to the definition of basic model. 3 

### But, you know, just as an example, 4 

### talking about water heaters, you know, the 5 

### Water Heater Institute was faced with a very 6 

### difficult situation of providing special 7 

### NOx-emitting product to Southern California -- 8 

### okay? -- and recognizing that they did put in 9 

### a different burner, but if they knew that 10 

### otherwise this thing was going to perform the 11 

### same as model whatever, you know, again, I 12 

### think there are options available that they 13 

### still could comply with the law and not 14 

### necessarily have to in all cases with the 15 

### current definition of basic model in all cases 16 

### test multiple samples. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You are next. 18 

### MS. CHANG: Christine Chang, 19 

### Natural Resources Defense Council. 20 

### One item that we don't see on this 21 

### list for reporting requirements that we would 22 

### like to see is full performance data. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com135

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### MS. BARHYDT: This is the general 2 

### information that is required of all products. 3 

### Paragraph (b)(13) of 429.19 actually has all 4 

### of the specific product information. And it's 5 

### different because the performance requirements 6 

### are different for every product. It's 7 

### different for each one. 8 

### MS. CHANG: Okay. 9 

### MS. BARHYDT: And so definitely we 10 

### have not gotten rid of the performance 11 

### reporting requirements. 12 

### MS. CHANG: Great. So the public 13 

### will be able to see the extent at which the 14 

### products meet the federal minimum standards? 15 

### MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 16 

### MS. CHANG: Great. And then 17 

### another comment I wanted to make on annual 18 

### recertification, given that there also was a 19 

### requirement in the proposed rulemaking for DOE 20 

### to be notified whenever a product is 21 

### discontinued, we were interested in hearing 22 

### the reasoning behind wanting this annual NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com136

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### recertification of old test data as we're not 2 

### sure that that really provides any new 3 

### information to DOE. And we think, instead, 4 

### that some sort of regular recertification with 5 

### new test data would be more helpful. 6 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, okay. 7 

### (Laughter.) 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 9 

### Let me note for those of you that 10 

### are keeping track of the slides we backed up a 11 

### few. 12 

### MS. BARHYDT: Yes, we have. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: The comments now, 14 

### Laura has presented up to slide 24. So that 15 

### sequence of slides if you have comments? Tim 16 

### Ballo? 17 

### MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with 18 

### EarthJustice. 19 

### First, just a question. When 20 

### talking about running more than one test on a 21 

### particular unit within a basic model, I just 22 

### want to be clear. Did DOE's regs or the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com137

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### proposed regs at least mandate that you run 2 

### the same number of tests on each unit within 3 

### the sample of the basic model that you're 4 

### testing? 5 

### I guess my concern is you test 6 

### them once and you have the sample of, say, 7 

### four and then you run maybe a couple of more 8 

### tests on the unit that tested really well and 9 

### then you get your rating that way. 10 

### MS. BARHYDT: The sampling plan is 11 

### based on a statistical analysis of the number 12 

### of units tested. And you would not be able to 13 

### bump up the number of units tested just 14 

### because you tested one unit multiple times. 15 

### MR. BALLO: Okay. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? 17 

### MR. COULTER: Greg Coulter, Prolec 18 

### General Electric. 19 

### I am just using transformers, 20 

### talking to those. We like the new CCMS 21 

### approach, doing it electronically. Our 22 

### problem is for distribution transformers, it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com138

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### doesn't exist. And it looks like it's going 2 

### to come out in the final regulations with no 3 

### comment. If there's an error or a problem 4 

### with it, we could be caught flat-footed here. 5 

### We would kind of like to see it 6 

### before it comes out and have a chance to 7 

### comment to it. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley? 9 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So to the 10 

### extent that the CCMS, the templates that you 11 

### find online currently available for certain 12 

### consumer products for which we collect 13 

### information now, all it is is a format of the 14 

### information we are requesting in our regs. So 15 

### it's what we think is an easy format to fill 16 

### out. 17 

### To the extent that once it comes 18 

### out -- the templates will come out with the 19 

### final rule, with the information that we had 20 

### gone final with collecting. To the extent you 21 

### have feedback, you can contact me. 22 

### MR. COULTER: We will. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com139

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: but it's not -- 2 

### MR. COULTER: We kind of -- 3 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not a formal 4 

### iterative process. So I would suggest that if 5 

### you have comments about the type of 6 

### information DOE is collecting or what 7 

### information it shouldn't be collecting, this 8 

### is that process. Our regulations say what 9 

### information. It's just we're making it pretty 10 

### per se in an Excel template. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Other 12 

### comments on these slides? Because we're going 13 

### to keep going ahead. 14 

### MS. BARHYDT: So lets see. We 15 

### talked about the distribution, the commerce. 16 

### Currently we do require that it must be 17 

### reported to DOE when a model is discontinued. 18 

### We are proposing that, rather than that being 19 

### an ongoing rolling basis, as it is right now, 20 

### you would be able to report when a model is 21 

### discontinued as part of the annual 22 

### certification. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com140

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### This rule does not change the 2 

### current status permitting manufacturers to do 3 

### in-house testing. It does not require 4 

### independent testing. We may look at that in 5 

### the next rulemaking, but at this time we are 6 

### not making any changes to that. 7 

### The sampling provisions were 8 

### scattered. And for consumer products, they 9 

### were pretty much in one section, but for 10 

### commercial products, they were scattered 11 

### throughout part 431. And so we have 12 

### consolidated all of the sampling procedures 13 

### into proposed 429.9. 14 

### We have also added some sampling 15 

### provisions for products for which there 16 

### previously were not sampling provisions. 17 

### We did not make any changes to the 18 

### sampling plans that had already been adopted, 19 

### but we do have a lot of questions about how 20 

### sampling plans perhaps could be improved. And 21 

### we would be looking at those issues in the 22 

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### This is one of the issues that we 2 

### had specific questions about where we're 3 

### looking at the sampling plans and tolerances 4 

### for other features of the covered products and 5 

### covered equipment that impact the water energy 6 

### characteristics of the product. 7 

### We're also seeking comment on the 8 

### approach that DOE has taken and the 9 

### methodologies that we should consider if we 10 

### decide to extend sampling provisions to 11 

### features other than the regulatory metrics. 12 

### For example, I think you used the 13 

### storage volume of a water heater earlier. 14 

### It's not a regulatory metric. But whether or 15 

### not that is something that is actually 16 

### representative across a number of samples we 17 

### think that perhaps the sampling plan would be 18 

### in order to ensure that the value being used 19 

### in the calculation for efficiency is actually 20 

### a valid metric. 21 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. And this is 22 

### Ashley. I'll take that a step further and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com142

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### even saying, going to the question about -- 2 

### right now I'll use an example of water 3 

### heaters, going along with the theme. But 4 

### right now the energy factor, which is the 5 

### regulatory metric, is based on the rated 6 

### storage volume. 7 

### Then if DOE went down the pathway 8 

### of adding sampling plans and tolerances for 9 

### actual measured volume, then subsequently the 10 

### standards could be based on that actual 11 

### measured volume other than the rated storage 12 

### volume. 13 

### So this is asking whether that is 14 

### appropriate, whether you agree or disagree. I 15 

### see a lot of people staring at me. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: This gentleman I 17 

### believe is first and then Ellis. 18 

### MR. BROWN: Yes. This is Bill 19 

### Brown with GE Appliances. 20 

### The first comment I have regards 21 

### the concept of discontinued model. If you can 22 

### go back to that slide? NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com143

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### MS. BARHYDT: Sure. 2 

### MR. BROWN: Just we have a 3 

### difficulty with the current definition of 4 

### discontinued model and being able to track 5 

### when it is no longer being distributed or no 6 

### longer for sale. 7 

### We would suggest possibly a better 8 

### way to look at a discontinued model is, you 9 

### know, final production date. We can certainly 10 

### track the final production date and give 11 

### yourself enough time as well to let that model 12 

### go through the process of being sold. 13 

### We would suggest to be consistent 14 

### with what the EPA does with EnergyStar, one 15 

### year after final production would be 16 

### considered to be discontinued model. We would 17 

### like to offer that. 18 

### The other question I have goes 19 

### back to some other comments we had on number 20 

### of tests per unit. I know you said that you 21 

### asked for the sample size just to make sure 22 

### that people were complying with minimum sample NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com144

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### size. The number of tests per unit, I mean, 2 

### it's been our reading of the document that you 3 

### test each unit one time. 4 

### Does DOE even offer the ability to 5 

### test a unit multiple times? And then what do 6 

### you do with that test? I mean, do you take 7 

### max, min, average? 8 

### My understanding is you test each 9 

### unit one time. I don't see in the DOE 10 

### documents today where it allows for multiple 11 

### testing of the same unit. And if it did, what 12 

### do you do with that data? 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong? 14 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So as far as 15 

### testing a unit more than once, multiple times, 16 

### I would say off the top of my head, I think 17 

### for most products, DOE is silent on it. So we 18 

### don't have explicit instructions on whether 19 

### you test a unit once, whether you're 20 

### prohibited to test a unit more than one time. 21 

### We're trying to understand what people are 22 

### actually doing. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com145

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### MR. BROWN: What do you recommend? 2 

### (Laughter.) 3 

### MR. BROWN: I mean, there's one 4 

### way to do it and -- 5 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: What would you 6 

### recommend doing? What do you do? 7 

### MR. BROWN: We test each unit one 8 

### time. 9 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 10 

### MR. BROWN: So everybody is going 11 

### to do that now? 12 

### (Laughter.) 13 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 14 

### McCabe. 15 

### I would like to just add to what 16 

### Ashley said, that for some of the commercial 17 

### products, where there is very low production 18 

### volume, I believe that there in the 19 

### enforcement testing, there is a provision for 20 

### multiple testing of an individual unit. And 21 

### so some of that consideration is what led to 22 

### this. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com146

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### But for the high volume products 2 

### and for most anything for certification, we 3 

### would expect that it would be a single test. 4 

### But, as we were again reminding everybody that 5 

### we're writing this for all the products. And 6 

### the time that we spent working together to 7 

### draft this, we were taking into consideration 8 

### what was going on with transformers, what was 9 

### going on with residential refrigerators in 10 

### trying to draft something that seemed to make 11 

### sense and then tailor it for the individual 12 

### products. 13 

### So as you're looking at these 14 

### provisions, please think about it both with 15 

### regards to the product or products that you 16 

### produce, but also take a look at some of the 17 

### other products for other industries and see 18 

### whether or not there might be something there 19 

### that would be applicable to your industry as 20 

### well. 21 

### MS. BARHYDT: One other thing. 22 

### You mentioned the discontinued product and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com147

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### making that more explicit as to when exactly a 2 

### product was discontinued. And you suggested 3 

### one year like it is for the EnergyStar 4 

### program. 5 

### For consumer products, perhaps one 6 

### year is applicable. But my question would be, 7 

### what about for commercial products? Would one 8 

### year be a reasonable time frame? Would it be 9 

### shorter? Would it be longer? And is one year 10 

### good for all consumer products even? 11 

### So if we were to go down the path 12 

### of making that explicit, we would definitely 13 

### need some information about what people 14 

### thought was a reasonable time period for 15 

### people to clear their stock. 16 

### MR. BROWN: Okay. That is fair. 17 

### Just the point I was making is that it is very 18 

### difficult for us to track when the last model 19 

### is out there being sold. 20 

### And on our example, I can see 21 

### where models being made eight years ago for 22 

### sale in one place in the country, somebody NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com148

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### still has that one unit. That's not what I 2 

### want to track. And I don't think that DOE is 3 

### looking to look for that one unit as what 4 

### we're trying to sell. 5 

### So one year for commercial 6 

### appliances is a very reasonable time frame. 7 

### I'm sure you'll be getting comments for other 8 

### products as well that say what is a good time 9 

### frame for them or if they can reasonably track 10 

### this final sell, it may be easy for them as 11 

### well. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer? 13 

### MS. CLEARY: My question kind of 14 

### echoes Mr. Brown's thoughts of trying to 15 

### figure out, you know, a model is being 16 

### discontinued when it is no longer being sold 17 

### or held out for sale or distribution by the 18 

### manufacturer or private labeler. I would 19 

### interpret that to mean that being sold means 20 

### being sold to whoever the manufacturer sells 21 

### to, not being sold by -- 22 

### MS. BARHYDT: Correct. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com149

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### MS. CLEARY: -- X retailer. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank? 3 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 4 

### AHRI. 5 

### I just want to go back briefly to 6 

### this question of the sampling and the testing. 7 

### And specifically I am going to specifically 8 

### talk about the enforcement testing for 9 

### consumer products, which has been a regulation 10 

### since way back when. 11 

### In that particular case, in fact, 12 

### the current regulations for consumer products 13 

### specified initial sampling of four units. And 14 

### then if there is some disagreement as to the 15 

### conclusion generated by those four units, 16 

### there is an opportunity to test more samples. 17 

### There is no opportunity to repeat the tests. 18 

### So I think, at least on the aspect 19 

### of the enforcement testing for consumer 20 

### products, it is very clear there is no option 21 

### to repeat the test of a test sample. 22 

### If there is either not a clear NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com150

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### conclusion or in the case of the manufacturer, 2 

### it doesn't necessarily agree that the right 3 

### answer has been achieved, they can ask for 4 

### more tests, but they don't have an opportunity 5 

### to say, "Oh, can you test that one again or 6 

### maybe run it two or three more times?" 7 

### So I think, at least from that 8 

### aspect of the rules, the perspective that we 9 

### have always used I think is there that when 10 

### you are doing sampling testing, you only get 11 

### to test each sample once. And that was part 12 

### of, still part of, my confusion. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 14 

### Additional comments on this, 15 

### please? 16 

### MS. STERLING: Yes. I would like 17 

### to move forward to the certification testing 18 

### slide. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Can you see what it 20 

### is? 21 

### MR. McCABE: This is Joan 22 

### Sterling. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com151

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### MS. STERLING: Joan Sterling with 2 

### Intertek. 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 4 

### MS. BARHYDT: Slide number -- 5 

### MS. STERLING: In-house versus 6 

### independent testing. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Twenty-six. 8 

### MS. STERLING: We would like to 9 

### request -- and it will become more significant 10 

### in the future rulemaking -- that the 11 

### terminology be addressed properly and using 12 

### ISO ISE guide 2 that we will talk about not in 13 

### in-house testing but first party testing 14 

### versus third party testing and not independent 15 

### testing as such. So if we're starting to use 16 

### the correct terminology, it will be more clear 17 

### to the industry exactly what we're talking 18 

### about. 19 

### And in other spots in the 20 

### presentation, there was made mention of 21 

### self-certification, which, in fact, doesn't 22 

### exist. I think the appropriate term is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com152

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### supplier's declaration of conformity. 2 

### So I think it will become more 3 

### important in the second rulemaking. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. That is 5 

### helpful. Thank you. 6 

### Karim? 7 

### MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 8 

### I have a question for Ashley. 9 

### Regarding the tolerances for 10 

### metrics, are you talking about existing 11 

### metric, like CE, or are you talking about like 12 

### the volume for water heaters? 13 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. This is 14 

### Ashley. 15 

### Our sampling plans currently 16 

### revolve around the regulatory, the existing 17 

### regulatory metrics, like CE, like EER, like 18 

### energy factor, one of our -- we're talking 19 

### about -- well, that's one of the issues. 20 

### But we're talking about in the 21 

### specific slide, should DOE add tolerances 22 

### and/or sampling plans for non-regulatory NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com153

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### metrics, like storage volume, like cooling 2 

### capacity, like a number of terms for which the 3 

### standards depend upon. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. You can see 5 

### there and it's on the screen issue number 4. 6 

### Any additional comments adding sampling plans 7 

### and tolerances for other features of current 8 

### products and current work that would impact 9 

### the water or energy characteristics of a 10 

### product? Additional comments? 11 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Karim, back to 12 

### you. You're shaking your head. Does that 13 

### mean you agree that DOE should? 14 

### MR. AMRANE: No, no. 15 

### (Laughter.) 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank? 17 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 18 

### AHRI. 19 

### Let me specifically ask. We 20 

### certainly don't agree that you need to be 21 

### worried about water heater volume. There are 22 

### other standards, other market forces that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com154

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### regulate to what degree the actual volume 2 

### might vary from the rated volume. 3 

### We have been down that road with 4 

### the California Energy Commission quite a few 5 

### years ago. And it just adds a lot more 6 

### complication and no improvement in ultimately 7 

### regulating the efficiency of water heaters. 8 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 9 

### McCabe. Following up on your comment, Frank, 10 

### and, again, I'll make it very broad that when 11 

### you -- the other products as well. In most of 12 

### the products or many of the products, there's 13 

### a measure of capacity that is required to be 14 

### reported. 15 

### Many of the products, 16 

### refrigerators, water heaters, the standard is 17 

### a function of capacity. There are, looking at 18 

### room air conditioners, for example, there is 19 

### some shorthand information that is out there 20 

### that says that the EER is the equivalent of 21 

### capacity divided by wattage. 22 

### And so the question, just to make NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com155

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### sure that everybody is very clear, it's a very 2 

### broad question. So it's measures of capacity 3 

### that we're asking manufacturers to certify to 4 

### DOE. Should those be subject to the same 5 

### tolerance, testing requirements? 6 

### But I would even go beyond that to 7 

### think about the values that would appear in 8 

### representations that, as Ashley said, relate 9 

### to efficiency. So taking clothes washers, for 10 

### example, since the modified energy factor, 11 

### there is a relationship between the volume of 12 

### the clothes washer, and the energy use. You 13 

### know, should tub volume be subject to the same 14 

### sampling? 15 

### So please think about it very 16 

### broadly, not very narrowly, in this request. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You are next. 18 

### MR. VerSHAW: Jim VerShaw, 19 

### Ingersoll Rand. 20 

### Yes. We would prefer that you 21 

### would stick with the regulatory metrics and 22 

### the sampling that we have. You know, we do NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com156

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### capacity. We do capacity on air conditioners 2 

### as well as the SEER and the EER and the like. 3 

### How far can we go on different things? I 4 

### think you get too broad, and there are too 5 

### many things going on. We need to stick with 6 

### the regulatory metric. 7 

### MR. McCABE: Again, Michael 8 

### McCabe. 9 

### Following up on that, I think I 10 

### failed to make the request to Frank that in 11 

### your submittal, you talked about some of the 12 

### exchange with the California Energy 13 

### Commission. If you could go into that 14 

### experience, both what the back and forth was 15 

### and what the final decision was and what the 16 

### basis of that decision was, it would be 17 

### useful. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Final 19 

### comments on this segment? 20 

### (No response.) 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 22 

### MS. BARHYDT: So we are also NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com157

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### proposing specific provisions for commercial 2 

### HVAC and water heater equipment. Currently 3 

### sampling procedures allow the use of an AEDM. 4 

### And the sampling procedures are actually more 5 

### stringent for manufacturers that do not 6 

### participate in an approved VICP. 7 

### The proposal is basically getting 8 

### rid of that distinction. And the requirements 9 

### would be the same for all manufacturers 10 

### independent of whether they were participating 11 

### in a VICP or not. 12 

### The sampling procedures that would 13 

### apply are those that are currently the ones 14 

### that currently apply to nonmembers of VICPs. 15 

### So they're not completely new. They're just 16 

### the ones that were in use before for people 17 

### who were not participating in VICPs. 18 

### And manufacturers may use both 19 

### in-house and independent testing labs for 20 

### certification testing. And we would still 21 

### allow the third party certification for those 22 

### people who were participating a VICP. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com158

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### And then under the next 2 

### rulemaking, we will be looking at provisions 3 

### surrounding the VICPs for all covered products 4 

### and covered equipment and what parameters 5 

### might should apply to those programs that 6 

### would actually warrant possibly differential 7 

### treatment. 8 

### This is another one where we have 9 

### sought specific comment, particularly on the 10 

### criteria defining VICPs and their use in 11 

### certification compliance and enforcement. 12 

### And I already see people standing 13 

### up. 14 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 15 

### McCabe. 16 

### If I may add to what Laura has 17 

### said that, as I would describe it, we are 18 

### essentially wiping the slate clean for the 19 

### VICPs at this point. And, as Laura said, we 20 

### are looking at it for all the products for the 21 

### subsequent rulemaking. 22 

### So this should not be viewed as a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com159

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### comment, a negative comment, on the VICPs but, 2 

### rather, preparing the rulemaking for 3 

### consideration in the next step. 4 

### And while there are regs right now 5 

### for VICPs' recognition within the regulations, 6 

### we would encourage every industry, every 7 

### product line to take a look at this with an 8 

### eye towards the next rulemaking. 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Daryl? 10 

### MR. EARBS: Yes. Daryl Earbs, 11 

### Manitowoc. 12 

### I think the proposal makes it 13 

### clear to me that VICP really no longer -- it 14 

### plays a rule in certification, but a 15 

### manufacturer can go ahead and do their 16 

### certification without a VICP. 17 

### But the VICPs, at least some of 18 

### them, the ones that I am familiar with, do, in 19 

### fact, go through a verification process, which 20 

### to me is basically your enforcement mechanism, 21 

### right? They use an independent laboratory. 22 

### They go in, and they take random samples of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com160

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### products. 2 

### And so what I would be looking for 3 

### is a manufacturer who participates in a VICP 4 

### who is already going through every year an 5 

### enforcement activity through that VICP be 6 

### relieved of any additional burden on the part 7 

### of DOE to go through some additional 8 

### enforcement because if we have someone who is 9 

### already doing it through a voluntary program 10 

### and it satisfies at least the basic sampling 11 

### requirements that DOE would be looking for, we 12 

### shouldn't have to do it again. 13 

### MS. BARHYDT: So are you 14 

### suggesting that the VICP should provide the 15 

### information to the Department of Energy about 16 

### whether products pass or fail? 17 

### MR. EARBS: I think in the case 18 

### that a product would fall below a minimum 19 

### requirement, then that's appropriate. We list 20 

### products that are above the minimum. They may 21 

### be between EnergyStar and minimum. We may be 22 

### required to re-rate. But if it's still above NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com161

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### the minimum, I don't know that there is any 2 

### good reason why they would supply that 3 

### information to DOE. 4 

### But if you fall below a minimum, 5 

### then I think, yeah, that would be appropriate. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 7 

### MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 8 

### I would like to second what Daryl 9 

### just said. I guess we don't understand this 10 

### action by DOE at this point in time, frankly. 11 

### It's a disincentive for those who are 12 

### currently in the VICP to continue to be in a 13 

### VICP for commercial product. 14 

### I think when DOE will issue this 15 

### rulemaking on VICP, maybe that will be the 16 

### time to put all products the same 17 

### requirements, but right now doing it today 18 

### while we don't know when this rule will be 19 

### eventually finalized and published, I think 20 

### it's premature. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 22 

### Yes? NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com162

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### MR. VerSHAW: Jim VerShaw, 2 

### Ingersoll Rand. 3 

### In terms of commercial air 4 

### conditioning and -- first of all, we support 5 

### VICPs. We have been long-term members with 6 

### AHRI on all of our products. 7 

### The problem with commercial air 8 

### conditioning, as I mentioned earlier, is that 9 

### some of these units can get very big. 10 

### And they are not on stock. 11 

### They're special ordered. So if you wanted to 12 

### do a random sampling of the 100-ton rooftop, 13 

### you're going to have to order it. And it's 14 

### going to cost $150,000. And there is no place 15 

### in the country you can test it independently. 16 

### So as you move forward with these 17 

### rules and regulations, you need to make sure 18 

### that we can actually do the things that are 19 

### liked to have been done and that they're 20 

### reasonable. 21 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Just to follow up 22 

### on that, to the extent that a VICP -- whether NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com163

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### they currently do or in the future, to the 2 

### extent that they alleviate those problems, I 3 

### mean, how do they test or how do they 4 

### spot-check 100-ton units? 5 

### MR. VerSHAW: They have to come to 6 

### our lab. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on 8 

### this section? 9 

### (No response.) 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 11 

### MS. BARHYDT: The current 12 

### regulations require maintenance of records for 13 

### two years after the production has ceased and 14 

### is no longer being distributed by the 15 

### manufacturer. 16 

### And we're not making any changes 17 

### to that. We are clarifying the information 18 

### that DOE believes are public records within 19 

### the certification data. And that information 20 

### is listed here. 21 

### And I think that's about it on 22 

### that slide. Anything else, any other NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com164

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### comments, on certification? 2 

### MR. McCABE: Laura, if we could 3 

### back up to the previous slide? 4 

### MS. BARHYDT: Sure. 5 

### MR. McCABE: I would like to point 6 

### out it is all product-specific information 7 

### submitted in the certification report. So 8 

### reviews would be public record. That would 9 

### mean that anybody coming in and asking for it 10 

### would have the right to see the information 11 

### and that we would have the responsibility to 12 

### provide them with that information upon 13 

### request. 14 

### When we looked at the information 15 

### that we had listed before as far as that we 16 

### were looking for it to be submitted, we talked 17 

### about generally and then for each product, 18 

### there is some specific information. 19 

### We recognize that from some of the 20 

### comments made today and discussions had over 21 

### my 30-year tenure of the program, that some 22 

### may view some of that as being proprietary. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com165

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### We have reviewed the information. 2 

### We do not consider it to be, but I would ask. 3 

### I want to point it out and make sure that you 4 

### do comment on it and offer your rationale as 5 

### to why. If there is any that you would 6 

### consider to be proprietary, what was the basis 7 

### of that consideration? 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 9 

### MS. BARHYDT: So we have also 10 

### proposed to change the way enforcement testing 11 

### is set up. In the current regulation, it 12 

### states that DOE must receive written 13 

### information that a covered product or covered 14 

### equipment may be violating a standard before 15 

### DOE can conduct enforcement testing. 16 

### We are proposing to change that so 17 

### that we can request data, test, or examine in 18 

### another format the standards compliance of any 19 

### covered product or covered equipment at any 20 

### time. 21 

### We may initiate enforcement 22 

### testing without written information from a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com166

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### third party. And this proposal aligns the 2 

### regulations with the statutory authority 3 

### Congress provided to DOE in EPCA. The 4 

### previous regulation was far more narrow than 5 

### the actual statutory authority. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Jim? 7 

### MR. VerSHAW: Yes. Jim VerShaw, 8 

### Ingersoll Rand. 9 

### Could you go through how you would 10 

### decide to initiate enforcement testing without 11 

### written information? Are you going to use 12 

### that based on the bullet in front of that or 13 

### just that you just decide that you're going to 14 

### check somebody? 15 

### MS. BARHYDT: I think we are 16 

### probably going to answer that question as we 17 

### go further through the process. 18 

### MR. VerSHAW: All right. 19 

### MS. BARHYDT: So if we can table 20 

### that for now? And then if we end up not 21 

### answering the question, by all means, raise it 22 

### again. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com167

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### MR. STANONIK: Excuse me? Excuse 2 

### me? 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Frank? 4 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 5 

### AHRI. 6 

### Under the current enforcement 7 

### process, if DOE does initiate, again, current 8 

### products or consumer products, if DOE does 9 

### initiate an enforcement proceeding, the 10 

### regulations do provide an opportunity for the 11 

### manufacturer to meet with DOE and provide any 12 

### data they might have on testing of that unit 13 

### and have some opportunity to discuss whatever 14 

### information DOE has that initiated the process 15 

### before they go to testing. 16 

### Is this proposal eliminating that 17 

### opportunity for the manufacturer to perhaps 18 

### first meet with DOE and provide whatever data 19 

### they might have before we immediately go to 20 

### doing tests? 21 

### MS. BARHYDT: I don't believe that 22 

### it is changing that, but I've got to double NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com168

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### check. I've got to look back for the text 2 

### that we proposed again. 3 

### MR. STANONIK: All right. Thanks. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Daryl? 5 

### MR. EARBS: Yes. I was actually on 6 

### to the next slide. 7 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 

### MR. EARBS: I don't know if we can 9 

### move forward to the -- the majority of our 10 

### products are basically a build-to-order 11 

### situation. So we receive orders. And 12 

### depending on the type of product, we may have 13 

### lead times as short as five days. But there 14 

### are other ones that are -- we would describe 15 

### them as special orders-type models. 16 

### And so I think this really comes 17 

### out of the consumer area, but I think you 18 

### really have to differentiate between 19 

### consumer-type, which would be a make-to-stop 20 

### versus a build-to-order-type product. Two 21 

### days is just completely unrealistic in terms 22 

### of our ability to make samples available with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com169

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### that kind of promise. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Samuels? 3 

### MR. SAMUELS: I am Chuck Samuels. 4 

### I'm counsel to AHAM. 5 

### First of all, this is an excellent 6 

### hearing, very well-organized. You're to be 7 

### commended on it. 8 

### As Jennifer and Ellis mentioned, 9 

### we are very supportive of DOE being proactive 10 

### in this area. And we ourselves are developing 11 

### verification programs in order to meet the 12 

### need. 13 

### I do want to talk now that we're 14 

### in this enforcement testing area about two 15 

### issues that I find to be troubling and that 16 

### aren't raised in your proposed regulations or 17 

### the slides but really ought to be subject to 18 

### discussion. 19 

### The first thing is what appears to 20 

### be a trend that often without any notice to 21 

### the manufacturer, a complaint is issued that 22 

### is made public, thereby creating adverse NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com170

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### publicity before the manufacturer has had any 2 

### opportunity to respond to the Department or 3 

### certainly be engaged in any kind of procedure, 4 

### including adjudicatory procedure. Now, when 5 

### these complaints are closed, favorably or 6 

### unfavorably, that's also publicized. 7 

### But some of these involve mistaken 8 

### understandings and trivial errors. You just, 9 

### for example, closed a number of cases, two of 10 

### which you recognized that, in fact, the 11 

### manufacturer had sent the certification data 12 

### in to the Department, although perhaps it was 13 

### mislaid or perhaps it was not totally done to 14 

### the right office or electronically. It 15 

### doesn't seem like that ought to be subject to 16 

### a press release, particularly if you have 17 

### given no opportunity to the manufacturer to 18 

### respond to this at all. 19 

### The second this is I have noticed 20 

### that the form of these complaints is not a 21 

### form that says, "We have noticed that, as far 22 

### as we can tell, you haven't sent in a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com171

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### certification form. If this is the case, this 2 

### is a problem. If you disagree, please let us 3 

### know." 4 

### No. It's written "We have made a 5 

### finding that you are in noncompliance. You 6 

### are liable potentially in penalties for X, but 7 

### we are going to do you a favor. And if you 8 

### respond within X days, then it's going to be X 9 

### - Y." 10 

### I mean, this obviously is done in 11 

### a coercive format that doesn't actually even 12 

### give the companies the information. And this 13 

### is particularly applicable to small 14 

### businesses, that if they think there has been 15 

### an error or a misunderstanding or they have 16 

### got contrary data, that they have the full 17 

### opportunity, hopefully informally, although 18 

### you have already bypassed that by making it 19 

### public to some extent, but certainly formally 20 

### to show that to the Department. 21 

### So I think that it is a very 22 

### positive thing that the Program Office and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com172

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### General Counsel's Office are aggressively 2 

### enforcing the standards and the ancillary 3 

### requirements, but I think you really ought to 4 

### be rethinking some of these procedures. 5 

### And I find it interesting that 6 

### these procedures are not to be proposed to be 7 

### part of either guidelines or the regulations 8 

### but just totally at the whim and discretion of 9 

### the Department's. I think that is something 10 

### to think about and we should be talking about. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 12 

### Ellis? 13 

### MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig 14 

### Industries. 15 

### We manufacture walk-in coolers and 16 

### freezers, as you know. And our understanding 17 

### here with this sample basic model identified 18 

### shipping within two days, we may walk-in 19 

### coolers and freezers. 20 

### The standard since we make 21 

### everything custom -- it's not there are 40 of 22 

### them sitting on the shelf somewhere, we can NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com173

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### just pull one off and send to you -- it 2 

### actually has to be manufactured. And part of 3 

### the manufacturing process takes a certain 4 

### amount of aging and processes that have to go 5 

### through before the product chemically can be 6 

### ready to be tested. 7 

### So I hope there is consideration 8 

### taken into some of the manufacturing process 9 

### involved in some of these products that we 10 

### manufacture. This just wouldn't work. 11 

### I'm assuming you're saying here 12 

### that you call us up one day and say we need a 13 

### test and we've got to ship it in two days, 14 

### right? 15 

### MS. BARHYDT: It is a little more 16 

### complicated than that, but that's the general 17 

### gist of it. Actually, a few slides further 18 

### in, we talk about how we select units for 19 

### testing. And so that may address some of this 20 

### shipping issue. 21 

### MR. CRAIG: So do we get notified 22 

### and then within two days have to respond or do NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com174

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### we get notified before we get notified? I 2 

### mean, what is that saying? 3 

### (Laughter.) 4 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, again, 5 

### further in the presentation -- 6 

### MR. CRAIG: Okay. 7 

### MS. BARHYDT: -- we're going to go 8 

### through the whole process. 9 

### MR. CRAIG: Then I will yield to 10 

### that. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on 12 

### this segment here? Yes, Jennifer? 13 

### MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with 14 

### AHAM. 15 

### We also have concerns about this 16 

### change to two days. The five-day requirement 17 

### is hard enough for manufacturers to meet now. 18 

### It's very burdensome. Going to two days with 19 

### -- the reasoning, I believe, in the NOPR was 20 

### to increase the efficiency of the enforcement 21 

### process. 22 

### And while we agree it should be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com175

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### efficient, we hardly see how the difference of 2 

### three days is significantly more efficient, 3 

### especially given the significant increased 4 

### burden that that will place on manufacturers, 5 

### particularly in light of the ramped-up 6 

### enforcement and liability that goes along with 7 

### that. 8 

### We don't want to create a 9 

### requirement that is next to impossible to 10 

### meet. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 12 

### Yes? 13 

### MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli, Kysor. 14 

### I also have serious problems with 15 

### these short times. At certain times of the 16 

### year, our lead times are out to as much as 12 17 

### weeks. So to turn some special project over 18 

### in two days is nearly impossible. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 20 

### Paul? 21 

### MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, 22 

### Mitsubishi Electric. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com176

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### The time of year has a great 2 

### impact on that because in the heat of the 3 

### summer, it may be impossible to have any 4 

### products even available in stock due to 5 

### consumer demand. 6 

### And also with importing products, 7 

### you know, sometimes products are hung up in 8 

### port or things like that. So there are 9 

### circumstances where we can't -- it would be 10 

### impossible to comply with even the five days, 11 

### let alone the two days. 12 

### And hopefully the days are 13 

### considered working days and not weekends. 14 

### (Laughter.) 15 

### MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for the 17 

### clarification. Okay. 18 

### Other comments on these? 19 

### MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski, 20 

### Appliance Standards Awareness Project. 21 

### It strikes me that if the concern 22 

### the Department is trying to get at -- I'm not NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com177

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### sure what it is by shortening this time 2 

### period, but if the concern is cherry-picking, 3 

### I don't think this solves the problem. 4 

### I think the way you solve the 5 

### problem with cherry-picking is that you select 6 

### your units from the market, as opposed to the 7 

### manufacturer. You get them from retail. You 8 

### get them from distribution. That is the way 9 

### to address the problem with cherry-picking if 10 

### that is what you are after. 11 

### Thank you. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 13 

### Okay. We're moving on. 14 

### MS. BARHYDT: So the current 15 

### requirement for consumer products is an 16 

### initial sample of 4 products with the second 17 

### sample size about the 16 units depending on 18 

### the standard deviation of the initial sample. 19 

### We're proposing to modify this to account for 20 

### low-volume and built-to-order basic models. 21 

### We're basing our proposal on 22 

### existing sampling provisions for commercial NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com178

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### industrial equipment. And the way it's set 2 

### up, DOE will have discretion to determine 3 

### whether a basic model qualifies as low-volume 4 

### or built-to-order based on the specific facts 5 

### of the case. 6 

### And some of the things we will 7 

### look at are the number of units that are 8 

### actually available at the manufacturer's site 9 

### and at all distributors. 10 

### This is a summary of the sampling 11 

### procedures for enforcement testing. These are 12 

### not the sampling plans for certification 13 

### obviously. 14 

### And so for most products, the 15 

### first sample is four units. Of those, maximum 16 

### sample size will be no more than 21 units. 17 

### The old regulations had it at 20, but some of 18 

### the lighting products actually require a 19 

### sample size of 21. So we have changed that to 20 

### reflect that specific scenario. 21 

### And for some of the products, 22 

### we're proposing that the first sample would NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com179

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### not be more than four units. And there are a 2 

### variety of different exceptions provided. For 3 

### distribution transformers, the first sample 4 

### would be not more than five units. 5 

### We have posted a new online 6 

### database that provides guidance and 7 

### clarification on DOE's test procedures. And 8 

### it is publicly accessible and searchable. 9 

### The process is that anyone can 10 

### submit questions they have about the test 11 

### procedures. And we will develop draft 12 

### interpretive guidance, which we will then post 13 

### on the website and make it open for public 14 

### comment for 30 days. And then we will 15 

### finalize the guidance and post it on the 16 

### website. 17 

### So guidance that is marked as 18 

### final represents the official interpretation 19 

### by DOE. And it may be relied on by industry 20 

### and members of the public in terms of how DOE 21 

### interprets its test procedures. 22 

### So the -- sorry? NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com180

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### MS. CLEARY: This is Jennifer 2 

### Cleary with AHAM. I do have a comment on that 3 

### website. 4 

### The guidance website is a great 5 

### thing, but it doesn't work. 6 

### (Laughter.) 7 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 

### MS. CLEARY: So you can't search. 9 

### You can't pull up any guidance, even if you 10 

### search for guidance that you know exists. In 11 

### order for this to work, the website really 12 

### does need to function properly. 13 

### And also it would be very helpful 14 

### if the Department could come up with some way 15 

### to give notice to stakeholders when you issue 16 

### a draft guidance for comment, for example, and 17 

### when the final guidance is issued. 18 

### Right now we are finding these 19 

### mainly by going to the website each day. And 20 

### that doesn't really help with effective 21 

### compliance. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com181

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### MS. BARHYDT: So currently the way 2 

### we select units for testing, for enforcement 3 

### testing, we actually go to the manufacturer's 4 

### warehouse or a warehouse that they designate 5 

### for us. And we select the units for testing. 6 

### We are proposing to broaden that 7 

### to reflect the fact that some products are 8 

### built to order, there are none in warehouses, 9 

### and to reflect the low volume that some 10 

### manufacturers actually keep on hand. It may 11 

### not be sufficient for us to do enforcement 12 

### testing. 13 

### And so what we are proposing is 14 

### that we may select units of a basic model from 15 

### the manufacturer, a distributor, or from 16 

### retail, and that for low-volume or 17 

### built-to-order products, we'll determine the 18 

### most reliable approach for selecting 19 

### representative units. So for 20 

### low-volume/built-to-order, we may or may not 21 

### get those directly from the manufacturer. 22 

### The batch samples are not NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com182

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### necessary when the units are selected from 2 

### retail. So right now we go out and we mark 20 3 

### units. Four of those get shipped off for 4 

### testing. And the other 16 have to be held. 5 

### If the testing is not conclusive 6 

### based on the first four, then more from -- 7 

### this thing moves. From the other 16, those 8 

### get shipped off for testing to meet the 9 

### requirements of the sampling. 10 

### We would not use that batch sample 11 

### concept if we were selecting from retail 12 

### because it doesn't carry the issue of 13 

### cherry-picking. And we are also clarifying 14 

### that DOE can actually make a determination of 15 

### compliance when a statistically valid sample 16 

### size cannot be obtained. And we have an 17 

### explanation of exactly how we would do that. 18 

### We also made explicit that we can 19 

### use testing performed by other agencies that 20 

### were done in accordance with the DOE test 21 

### procedure to count towards the ultimate number 22 

### of units tested. And under the current NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com183

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### regulations, manufacturers assumed the expense 2 

### of supplying basic models for enforcement 3 

### testing. 4 

### And we maintain that requirement 5 

### under these new regulations, regardless of 6 

### where we obtained the units from. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Let's pause 8 

### there. Frank Stanonik? 9 

### MR. STANONIK: Just a couple of 10 

### issues on this proposed enforcement testing. 11 

### Again, with consumer products, under the 12 

### current regulations, even if the sample of 13 

### four, the first sample of four, indicated 14 

### noncompliance, the manufacturer currently does 15 

### have an option to ask for more tests. And, as 16 

### I read this proposal, that's been eliminated. 17 

### I am certainly not in agreement 18 

### with that. I think I have done this, but you 19 

### can predict, looking at the numbers, you can 20 

### predict, whether more samples have a chance of 21 

### changing a decision based on four units. 22 

### So there are some cases where, in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com184

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### fact, more sampling should be allowed as an 2 

### option because it is a better statistical 3 

### sample. There will be other cases where the 4 

### result is such that you could test 100 units 5 

### and you're never going to get into compliance. 6 

### That can be mathematically determined. So I 7 

### think DOE has gone a little bit too far on 8 

### this. 9 

### And then in the proposed rule, 10 

### relative to this idea that you are going to 11 

### pick up a unit at retail and then the 12 

### manufacturer is being -- it is indicated that 13 

### the manufacturer will reimburse the retailer. 14 

### Since DOE has entered into that, I hope that 15 

### they would perhaps clarify that reimbursement 16 

### means simply replacing the unit that was 17 

### selected, as opposed to paying the retailer 18 

### the value of what he sells it for, as opposed 19 

### to what the manufacturer sold it to the 20 

### retailer for. 21 

### Those are two very different 22 

### things. And it should be adequate that if the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com185

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### manufacturer gives the retailer another unit 2 

### of that same model, that is reimbursement 3 

### without other things. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ellis? 5 

### MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig 6 

### Industries. 7 

### Our products since we don't stock 8 

### them, we don't make them, we don't have 9 

### models, you're asking us to build you a unit 10 

### and ship it to you at our expense. The 11 

### average cost of our product is probably $6,000 12 

### a unit. And if you decide you want four of 13 

### them, you know, then we're talking some real 14 

### money. And if you wanted 16 more the next 15 

### test you did, you know, that's talking some 16 

### bigger money. 17 

### And everything has to be created. 18 

### It's not something I can put back on our 19 

### shelves. So I hope that's taken into 20 

### consideration. 21 

### It's not the fact that today in 22 

### this room you're intending to do any of that. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com186

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### We all know how laws are when they get passed 2 

### and regulations get implemented that down the 3 

### road, somebody might decide to just be ornery 4 

### and make us make four of them and send them to 5 

### you. 6 

### And that bothers us that we are in 7 

### a position that we are actually having to 8 

### produce a lot of product and send it to the 9 

### Department of Energy at our cost. Delivery 10 

### alone can cost $1,000 for one unit. 11 

### So I think it would hurt small 12 

### business and hurt the people who really can't 13 

### afford to do it quite as easy. So I think 14 

### there needs to be some consideration or some 15 

### kind of limitation to this or it will be too 16 

### burdensome on our industry. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 18 

### Paul? 19 

### MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, 20 

### Mitsubishi Electric. 21 

### A couple of things. First of all, 22 

### for VRF equipment, variable speed, multi-split NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com187

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### ductless systems, the cost of these products 2 

### can get very high, especially on the VRF 3 

### systems, up to $20,000 per system. So the 4 

### manufacturer would have to absorb the cost of 5 

### that because once these products are tested, 6 

### they can no longer be sold. So that's just a 7 

### lost cost. 8 

### Now, the other question I have is, 9 

### who pays for the testing? 10 

### MS. BARHYDT: DOE pays for the 11 

### testing. 12 

### MR. DOPPEL: Okay. Because for 13 

### the larger VRF-type systems, our testing costs 14 

### have been estimated up to 25 to 30 thousand 15 

### dollars per system. So these tests are quite 16 

### expensive. 17 

### Additionally, for a lot of these 18 

### systems, we have to bring an engineer from 19 

### Japan in order to set the various speeds that 20 

### are required to do these. Variable speed 21 

### systems less than 65,000 require 10 different 22 

### test settings. And the inverter system has to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com188

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### be set in order to run the compressor at 2 

### various speeds. So that sometimes takes an 3 

### engineer from Japan. 4 

### So that would be additional cost 5 

### to the manufacturer to provide engineering 6 

### support to do the testing. So I just wanted 7 

### to make sure that you understood that it's 8 

### very expensive for the manufacturer just from 9 

### the equipment basis alone. And also if we 10 

### have to bring support personnel, that's 11 

### additional cost on the manufacturer in order 12 

### to comply with this. 13 

### MS. BARHYDT: You mentioned that 14 

### the products cannot be restocked. 15 

### MR. DOPPEL: This is true. Once 16 

### the product is set up for testing, it involves 17 

### braising or mechanically joining the systems 18 

### together. And in some cases, you have to do 19 

### drilling into the cover of the ductless system 20 

### in order to do a test button that we have 21 

### provided. 22 

### So none of the equipment can be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com189

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### resold. And when we do our annual 2 

### certification testing, generally those systems 3 

### are like donated to different universities who 4 

### have or colleges that have programs for HVAC 5 

### techs, things of that nature. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Please? 7 

### MR. DeMARCO: Pete DeMarco, IAPMO 8 

### ORT. I have a question regarding, well, 9 

### regardless of where the sample was selected, 10 

### how will the Department determine what third 11 

### party test lab that it will be tested at? 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Please? Yes? 13 

### MS. WEINER: Hi. This is 14 

### Stephanie Weiner from the General Counsel's 15 

### Office. 16 

### The test labs will be identified 17 

### through the procurement process. 18 

### MR. DeMARCO: I am sorry. Through 19 

### what? 20 

### MS. WEINER: The procurement 21 

### process. We will enter into contracts with 22 

### test labs to test. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com190

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### MR. DeMARCO: So will there be one 2 

### test lab identified for that particular line 3 

### of products that will, unfortunately, always 4 

### go to that particular test lab? 5 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 6 

### McCabe. 7 

### Not necessarily because given how 8 

### the industry works, how the products are, you 9 

### know, at present we have undertaken some 10 

### contracts for some of the consumer products. 11 

### And we have multiple laboratories. As to 12 

### which lab would end up being used, we would 13 

### certainly have to consider a number of 14 

### factors, including whether or not there is any 15 

### relationship, for example, between that 16 

### laboratory and the manufacturer. 17 

### MR. DeMARCO: Okay. Very well. 18 

### And will those processes be put available 19 

### online for us to be able to understand as well 20 

### as the rest of this process as a third party 21 

### certifier, we certainly would like to be aware 22 

### of how that all is going to happen. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com191

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### MS. WEINER: We can look into 2 

### whether the procurement contracts are made 3 

### public. I don't know the answer to that 4 

### question. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 6 

### MR. DeMARCO: One further comment. 7 

### We certainly would, especially as it pertains 8 

### to plumbing products, recommend that the 9 

### manufacturer have some input as to the test 10 

### lab that they would choose to work with. 11 

### Familiarity with product designs tends to come 12 

### into play in some of these plumbing products, 13 

### specifically with toilets more than anything 14 

### else. 15 

### And in order to create consistency 16 

### in how those products were tested, there is 17 

### some value and familiarity with those 18 

### products. So we hope that you could take that 19 

### into account as well. 20 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 21 

### Yes? 22 

### MR. BASSO: Dale Basso, WEG and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com192

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### NEMA motor manufacturers. 2 

### The question I have is -- and I 3 

### know it's motors and you don't want to hear 4 

### about motors, but it might apply to some of 5 

### your other stuff -- in the selection of the 6 

### testing process, one of our biggest concerns 7 

### as motor manufacturers is that you focus on 8 

### the motors, but a lot of the issues or 9 

### violations could come from imported product 10 

### that has motors contained in the product. 11 

### Those motors could have a CC 12 

### number and be a certified product, but they 13 

### could also not. And so the concern is when 14 

### you are looking for verification testing, how 15 

### do you make the selection when you think about 16 

### the fact that the motor is on a compressor? 17 

### It may be a $10,000 part of a 18 

### $100,000 piece of equipment and fans and other 19 

### things or would you avoid enforcing imported 20 

### product with motors in it and only pick on the 21 

### motor manufacturers directly? So I guess our 22 

### concern is, how would you make those NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com193

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### decisions? 2 

### And then who is responsible to 3 

### pay? You did say an importer is the 4 

### manufacturer. So that means the compressor 5 

### manufacturer is the manufacturer, but maybe 6 

### it's a motor manufacturer with a compliant 7 

### motor. So who are you going to make pay for 8 

### the $100,000 compressor: the compressor guy 9 

### or the motor guy that's on there? 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes? Go ahead. 11 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 12 

### McCabe. 13 

### You know, we have started some 14 

### discussions with Customs, but those are some 15 

### very valid points. And as the program looks 16 

### to other products that may be issues as well, 17 

### I would encourage you to provide and comment 18 

### on this proposed rule since specific 19 

### recommendations as to how we could address 20 

### that. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 22 

### MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com194

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### If I understand this slide 2 

### correctly, are you saying that DOE could 3 

### supplement its own testing by using tests done 4 

### by other agencies? And my question is, are 5 

### they going to be used -- you know, are those 6 

### agencies using the same labs or DOE is going 7 

### to be testing products in one lab and using 8 

### test reports coming from a different lab and 9 

### assessing -- 10 

### MS. BARHYDT: This is where we can 11 

### verify that the test was done in accordance 12 

### with the DOE test procedure. 13 

### MR. AMRANE: But the DOE test 14 

### procedure is not sufficient. I mean, there 15 

### are variations among labs. So, you know, that 16 

### is something that DOE needs to consider very 17 

### seriously here because just testing to the DOE 18 

### test procedure doesn't mean that the lab A is 19 

### going to get you exactly the same result as 20 

### lab B. There needs to be some correlation 21 

### among the labs. 22 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com195

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### McCabe. 2 

### That is an issue that we have had 3 

### some discussions with regards to verification 4 

### testing. Karim, do you have a specific 5 

### proposal as far as how that can be 6 

### accomplished? 7 

### MR. AMRANE: At least in this 8 

### particular case, I think the test reports 9 

### should come from the same lab, at least to be 10 

### consistent, but maybe a broader picture would 11 

### be for DOE to do some correlations among the 12 

### labs to make sure that the labs are, you know, 13 

### at the same levels of testing that occurs. 14 

### MR. McCABE: A round robin testing 15 

### program? 16 

### MR. AMRANE: Round robin testing, 17 

### yes, would be a recommendation, yes. 18 

### MR. McCABE: So if I understood 19 

### you correctly -- and please think about this 20 

### as far as in a written comment, but I 21 

### understood you to say -- and I'm 22 

### extrapolating. So I apologize if I am going NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com196

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### wrong -- that you would recommend or consider 2 

### recommending something that for any laboratory 3 

### that DOE would accept information from, 4 

### whether or not it's a DOE-contracted or 5 

### another federal agency, that the lab had been 6 

### in a round robin test program or the same lab 7 

### that DOE is using? 8 

### MR. AMRANE: That is correct. 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, you're next. 10 

### MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli with 11 

### Kysor. 12 

### There is a lot of confusion 13 

### because we're discussing so many different 14 

### products, but, just to clarify, for walk-in 15 

### coolers, we're talking about 4 or as many as 16 

### 21 panels to check for R value, not 4 to 21 17 

### completed walk-ins with refrigeration? 18 

### In this current rulemaking, is 19 

### that what we're discussing or are you actually 20 

### talking about 4 to 21 complete walk-ins? 21 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 22 

### McCabe. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com197

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### At this point in time, the walk-in 2 

### cooler, walk-in freezer standard is a design 3 

### standard. So it's calls for the R value for 4 

### the walls. It calls for, I believe, air 5 

### curtains or quick-closing doors. 6 

### It is a prescriptive standard on 7 

### components. So we would not be -- given the 8 

### current standard, it certainly would not be 9 

### requiring manufacturers to produce an entire 10 

### system and test it because the standard does 11 

### not call for that. 12 

### There is a rulemaking that is 13 

### underway, as you are well-aware, for walk-in 14 

### coolers, walk-in freezers where performance 15 

### requirements are being looked at. And that is 16 

### certainly something that we are going to have 17 

### to examine. 18 

### And the comments received today 19 

### and written comments will be guiding us not 20 

### only as far as the current rulemaking but also 21 

### the future rulemaking as far as what kind of 22 

### standard and whether or not any additional NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com198

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### provisions need to be added that would be 2 

### unique for walk-in coolers, walk-in freezers 3 

### for the future standard. 4 

### MR. MINELLI: Thank you. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You're next. 6 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski, 7 

### Baldor Electric Company and NEMA. 8 

### Another comment on motors. The 9 

### scope of motors covered is 1 through 500 10 

### horsepower. And it will not be common for all 11 

### manufacturers to have the larger ratings in 12 

### stock and certainly not in the volumes that 13 

### you might want for sampling. Lead time to do 14 

### something like that might be as long as 26 15 

### weeks from some manufacturers. 16 

### When you look at third party 17 

### testing of an electric motor, there is no 18 

### third party tester, to the industry's 19 

### knowledge, that has the capacity to test 20 

### electric motors to 500 horsepower. 21 

### One tester can do about 200 horse. 22 

### I think CSA can do about 60 horse. UL is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com199

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### just starting their test program. And that's 2 

### about it. So if you choose something out of 3 

### that scope, you know, good luck in finding a 4 

### tester. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 6 

### Ellis, you're next. 7 

### MR. CRAIG: It's Ellis Craig, 8 

### Craig Industries, on walk-ins. 9 

### Part of the testing, there are 10 

### three tests that the DOE is proposing right 11 

### now. One of them is, of course, insulation 12 

### testing on an R value test. There is a thin 13 

### test that has to do with out-gassing. And 14 

### then there's another test. It's a box test 15 

### and infiltration test. 16 

### The infiltration test is a 17 

### completed walk-in. So if the complaint comes 18 

### from the field that, hey, this unit out here 19 

### is letting air in too bad and I can't hold the 20 

### R value on it and the DOE goes to investigate 21 

### that, the only way they're going to 22 

### investigate infiltration losses is if they NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com200

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### test for infiltration losses. 2 

### So since right now the installer 3 

### in the field is not held accountable and now 4 

### we have to test this unit, it will include a 5 

### complete walk-in be sent to the Department of 6 

### Energy to be tested or it has to be tested in 7 

### our plant because the tests that they're 8 

### coming out for those -- and there's also a box 9 

### test now that has to do with structural 10 

### members. 11 

### So there are several test 12 

### procedures that require different products. 13 

### But I know that that test that they've got 14 

### proposed right now for the infiltration loss 15 

### is actually setting the walk-in up. And they 16 

### put a gas in it. And then they wait, and they 17 

### test that gas that when it leaves the box in 18 

### that period of time, test how long. 19 

### So it would be full box testing 20 

### required to be shipped to the Department of 21 

### Energy or their testing lab, which could be 4 22 

### to 21 units. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com201

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### So that was our concern. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 3 

### Yes, please? 4 

### MS. KAMMER: Yes. Claire Kammer 5 

### with Underwriter Laboratories. 6 

### I just wanted to go back to your 7 

### question about accreditations and the existing 8 

### systems that can be leveraged to kind of 9 

### baseline the qualifications for labs, either 10 

### submitting the initial test data, doing the 11 

### enforcement testing, or being part of an 12 

### ongoing verification program. 13 

### We encourage DOE to leverage those 14 

### existing accreditation programs where 15 

### appropriate. 17-025 is a great one for 16 

### technical competencies specific to a 17 

### particular set of tasks. 18 

### Round robin may be part of that, 19 

### but on its own, round robin is just round 20 

### robin. So building a round robin system off 21 

### of an existing accreditation, like 17-025, 22 

### which can be applicable to both in-house test NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com202

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### laboratories, first party, as well as third 2 

### party is a tool that can be used. 3 

### For programs like enforcement 4 

### testing or verification testing, where you are 5 

### looking to include authentic third party 6 

### schemes, guide 65 and some other 7 

### qualifications of labs on top of that can be 8 

### looked at that for that. 9 

### So we just encourage you to look 10 

### to those type programs and leverage them where 11 

### appropriate. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Let me just make a 13 

### process note. For those of you who are 14 

### curious, we're going to pause shortly for 15 

### lunch, so if you're hungry. We're going to 16 

### get through the enforcement testing section. 17 

### At that point we'll pause. 18 

### But you're next. 19 

### MR. COMBS: Steve Combs, 20 

### International Cold Storage. 21 

### Regarding walk-in coolers and 22 

### freezers and the testing that is proposed NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com203

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### specifically under the supplementary NOPR that 2 

### is coming out, I would strongly urge the 3 

### Department to look at the time frame that is 4 

### to be considered with this testing process. 5 

### There is a limited number in my 6 

### experience, limited number, of laboratories 7 

### around the country that are capable of testing 8 

### a complete walk-in cooler/freezer unit. And 9 

### most of those have queues for the testing that 10 

### can get as much as six months. 11 

### So we do not want to put the 12 

### manufacturers at an unnecessary risk of not 13 

### being able to sell a product just while we're 14 

### waiting for the testing to be completed on 15 

### that. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 17 

### Written comments with specifics? 18 

### Yes? 19 

### MR. COULTER: Greg Coulter, Prolec 20 

### General Electric. 21 

### I'm going to talk about 22 

### distribution transformers again. And I'm NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com204

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### going to cover a couple of different things 2 

### you've covered in here. One is samples at 3 

### manufacturers' expense. 4 

### We're basically a made-to-order 5 

### business also. We have plans to make 6 

### transformers that may start at $50,000 and go 7 

### up from there, made-to-order. 8 

### It's tough to supply these things 9 

### at our expenses. We've also found it's tough 10 

### to get them, let's say, the end-user. Let's 11 

### say you want to go out and get them from the 12 

### end-user. Talk about him doing them. They've 13 

### been made to order, specifically showing up at 14 

### a certain time for him to us. 15 

### We notice that this is at DOE's 16 

### prerogative of how this goes about. You could 17 

### choose the right unit and we might have it 18 

### currently available, but you choose wrong 19 

### units or wrong types of units, it could be 20 

### very difficult to come up with a unit. And 21 

### the expense could get very difficult, as I 22 

### mentioned. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com205

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### If you choose it from somebody 2 

### other than us, we have a hard time being able 3 

### to obtain it. You want to go to an end-user 4 

### or a distributor. We don't own the unit. We 5 

### have no ability to get it to you or no legal 6 

### way to get it to you. We can't yank it away 7 

### from him. 8 

### And, finally, I would like to 9 

### comment about testing. I have been in this 10 

### business over 40 years. If there is any one 11 

### area where we have problems when it comes to 12 

### testing, most people in distribution 13 

### transformers, like motors probably, these big 14 

### things can be very difficult to test. 15 

### And generally when there are 16 

### disagreements, it gets down to how the testing 17 

### was done. And we found a lot of laboratories 18 

### who say they are very good at this who have 19 

### been dead wrong. And you can follow the DOE 20 

### rules, but, you know, the DOE rules are you 21 

### are basically covering for transformers how 22 

### you certify your own lab. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com206

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### As far as testing goes, it can get 2 

### real difficult. And we found it to be a lot 3 

### of problems. And right now we don't have any 4 

### way in your proposed rule change to even 5 

### challenge that. 6 

### They come up with something. 7 

### We're guilty as charged at that point with no 8 

### recourse. And this is an area that we find 9 

### could be real problematic, especially for 10 

### distribution transformers. There's such a 11 

### special product that we think there ought to 12 

### be some ability to even modify the testing or 13 

### participate in the testing of these very large 14 

### transformers to make sure they are done 15 

### correctly. 16 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 17 

### Jim, do you have a -- 18 

### MR. VerSHAW: I'm waiting on a 19 

### slide. 20 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Are there 21 

### others? Others of you who are standing, do 22 

### you wish to comment? Otherwise we're moving NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com207

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### on. 2 

### (No response.) 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: We're moving on. 4 

### MS. BARHYDT: The current 5 

### regulation allows for manufacturers to request 6 

### testing at the manufacturer's expense of 7 

### additional units if DOE determines the basic 8 

### model is non-compliant. And DOE must follow 9 

### the unfortunate sampling requirements, 10 

### resulting in a potential total sample size of 11 

### 20 units. And these sections don't allow the 12 

### manufacturers to retest the units DOE has 13 

### tested. 14 

### Under the prepossessed 15 

### regulations, we're looking at removing 16 

### 430.70(a)(6) and 431.383(f). So we would not 17 

### be permitting manufacturers to request 18 

### additional testing. 19 

### We believe the additional testing 20 

### delays the enforcement process. By the time 21 

### we have reached this point in the process, the 22 

### manufacturer has already provided us with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com208

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### their own test data. We have obtained units. 2 

### We have done testing. We have had 3 

### discussions about the testing. And we have 4 

### obtained a result that in most cases, it would 5 

### be based on a statistically valid sample size. 6 

### So additional testing just adds additional 7 

### testing. 8 

### Manufacturers may perform testing 9 

### on their units at any time. And that is at 10 

### their discretion. If they want to provide 11 

### additional data at a later point, they 12 

### certainly can. 13 

### And there is an adjudication 14 

### process to challenge our conclusions. But 15 

### doing additional testing after we have already 16 

### gone through the entire sampling process and 17 

### done testing, we just don't see that that 18 

### really adds a lot of value to the enforcement 19 

### process. 20 

### I'm guessing that somebody is 21 

### going to respond. 22 

### MR. VerSHAW: Yes. Jim VerShaw, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com209

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### Ingersoll Rand. 2 

### I want to go back to slide 33. 3 

### And I didn't hear what the process is that DOE 4 

### is going to use to decide to do initiate 5 

### enforcement testing. 6 

### MS. BARHYDT: That is actually in 7 

### the next section. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: So after lunch. 9 

### MR. VerSHAW: After lunch. I'll 10 

### have to come back after? Okay. 11 

### So let's say a split system. You 12 

### want to do enforcement testing on a split 13 

### system air conditioner and then you ask for 14 

### four samples of this system. And you'll test 15 

### those four samples. And if it doesn't come 16 

### out to be the level, that's it. There are not 17 

### 16 more samples that we can run tests on. 18 

### MS. BARHYDT: So there is an 19 

### enforcement sampling plan that has the 20 

### statistical calculation of whether or not the 21 

### variability in the test results was too great 22 

### for us to make a conclusive determination. So NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com210

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### that is what determines whether we test the 2 

### four or we test more. 3 

### MR. VerSHAW: Okay. So you test 4 

### four, look at statistics, and see if you 5 

### needed to do more testing? 6 

### MS. BARHYDT: Right. 7 

### MR. VerSHAW: And there is ability 8 

### for the manufacturer to discuss the results 9 

### because laboratories sometimes get their 10 

### energy balances off and they don't install the 11 

### unit correctly, hit the wrong charge level in, 12 

### et cetera. Is there some -- 13 

### MS. BARHYDT: I mean, as we go 14 

### through the process, we provide the test 15 

### results to the company. The company does get 16 

### to see the test results. 17 

### It's not like we just come to you 18 

### and say, "Oh, you failed." I mean, you get to 19 

### see the full test data and all the test 20 

### reports that are generated by the lab. 21 

### MR. VerSHAW: So then you collect 22 

### the fine, and then we appeal? NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com211

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### MS. BARHYDT: Well, actually -- 2 

### (Laughter.) 3 

### MS. BARHYDT: -- the way -- 4 

### MR. McCABE: If you are offering 5 

### it. 6 

### (Laughter.) 7 

### MS. BARHYDT: This is all in the 8 

### next section for after lunch. 9 

### MR. VerSHAW: All right. I will 10 

### be back. 11 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. 13 

### Frank Stanonik? 14 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 15 

### McCabe. If I may? And I'm looking at you, 16 

### Frank, since you raised this issue before. 17 

### The sampling plan, as Laura said, 18 

### calls for setting aside for the consumer 19 

### products -- focus again, reiterates consumer 20 

### products -- setting aside the 21 units. The 21 

### current calls for setting aside 20. You test 22 

### the first four. And if you have a wide NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com212

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### distribution or variability or your main is 2 

### way off the standard, you can immediately 3 

### fail. 4 

### If it is above -- we have built 5 

### into our enforcement testing a five percent 6 

### tolerance. So if you're 95 percent or better 7 

### of the standard, there are provisions where 8 

### you can pass. And when you fall in between 9 

### those two scenarios is where depending upon 10 

### the variability, it's either one or under the 11 

### current rules 15 more units to be tested. 12 

### With that five percent tolerance 13 

### that is built into the enforcement testing, as 14 

### you see it in the appendix B, the subpart E of 15 

### 429, it is not clear to us that any additional 16 

### testing at a manufacturer's option would make 17 

### a difference in the conclusion. 18 

### Particularly, as Laura said, at 19 

### that point, we have already had numerous 20 

### exchanges with a manufacturer over our initial 21 

### data that comes to the complaint, whatever 22 

### form it is in. And the subsequent NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com213

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### conversations that the additional testing at a 2 

### manufacturer's options, so far we have not 3 

### seen a situation where that would make a 4 

### difference. 5 

### So following up on your comment 6 

### earlier, are there any situations that 7 

### reasonably could exist where manufacturer 8 

### testing would make a difference? 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Frank Stanonik? 10 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 11 

### AHRI. 12 

### I will answer that immediate 13 

### question first. Specifically because we do 14 

### and did operate a water heater, residential 15 

### water heat, efficiency certification program 16 

### and for many years for that program, in 17 

### particular, if there was a question of a 18 

### rating, we used the DOE enforcement testing. 19 

### We immediately went to testing four samples. 20 

### And that's why I mentioned I've 21 

### had some experience with trying to determine, 22 

### is there a chance that more tests will change NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com214

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### the result or not. 2 

### Mike, there is at least one 3 

### situation I recall where more testing did turn 4 

### results around. Now, my problem is, as 5 

### probably I hope everybody can relate to, we 6 

### have record retention policies. And I'm sure 7 

### that this one did not happen in the last five 8 

### or six years. 9 

### If I can find that test result, I 10 

### don't think there's any problem in providing 11 

### it to DOE, but in all those years, I can 12 

### recall one where I think we went to like it 13 

### was seven or eight. And, lo and behold, the 14 

### statistics changed. And at this point, it's 15 

### anecdotal. I understand that. 16 

### MS. BARHYDT: But that is in 17 

### addition to the initial four, right? Because, 18 

### I mean -- 19 

### MR. STANONIK: Right. 20 

### MS. BARHYDT: -- what we're 21 

### talking about with removing the additional 22 

### manufacturer testing, that's the testing in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com215

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### excess of the possible 21. Would anything 2 

### even beyond that -- because that's the part of 3 

### the testing that we're talking about removing. 4 

### MR. STANONIK: Okay. Then I 5 

### apologize because I misread this proposal that 6 

### if the results of four samples, result of four 7 

### samples, said you failed, that the 8 

### manufacturer no longer had an option to say, 9 

### "Wait a minute. I want you to test more 10 

### units." 11 

### MS. BARHYDT: It is a conclusive 12 

### determination that it failed based on the 13 

### statistical analysis. So you're saying that 14 

### the statistical analysis actually came out and 15 

### said that they failed and then you did 16 

### additional testing and that that failed. 17 

### MR. STANONIK: Yes. And, 18 

### actually, my initial reason for standing up 19 

### here is that -- and I'm not a statistician. 20 

### So, you know, I am going to give you the 21 

### simple version of statistical theory. Okay? 22 

### The idea that you have tested four NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com216

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### samples says that I have a certain level of 2 

### confidence that the result of the four samples 3 

### gives me the true answer. All right? 4 

### And in most cases, that's correct. 5 

### All right? But, in fact, there is -- and I 6 

### don't know the exact number, but there is, in 7 

### fact, some probability that that four-unit 8 

### sample gave you if you are looking to enforce 9 

### a false negative; in other words, failure that 10 

### wasn't a failure. 11 

### And so the idea of allowing the 12 

### manufacturer to ask for more units be tested 13 

### was, in fact, this check, if you will, that if 14 

### there was in the manufacturer's eyes a real 15 

### question this model shouldn't be failing, that 16 

### they could -- by increasing the sample size, 17 

### you increased the likelihood that the answer 18 

### you get is, in fact, the correct answer. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: And if you get all 20 

### the way to 21, that still doesn't do it? 21 

### MR. STANONIK: Well, but at 21 -- 22 

### again, at 20 because for our covered products, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com217

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### consumer products, it was 20. At 20 it gets 2 

### to the point where it's been acknowledged that 3 

### additional testing will not change your 4 

### results. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 6 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 7 

### McCabe. 8 

### Picking up on the false negative, 9 

### we have that five percent built into the 10 

### enforcement testing in order to avoid a false 11 

### negative. 12 

### So what you're describing, Frank, 13 

### is a situation where there may have been a 14 

### case, one case, where the testing, additional 15 

### testing, at manufacturer's option may have 16 

### brought it from being at 96 percent of an 17 

### efficiency standard to 94 percent or 95. So 18 

### it would have been within that five percent 19 

### tolerance. 20 

### But I think a statistician may 21 

### very well have said that if you tested all 21, 22 

### 20-21, or you test the entire sample, that by NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com218

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### the time you get given the data at the initial 2 

### testing, that the true mean would still be 3 

### below the standard. 4 

### And so if you tested everything, 5 

### they would have failed the standard. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You're next. 7 

### MS. FABIAN: Yes. Barbara Fabian 8 

### with Owens Corning. 9 

### I would like to speak from a 10 

### testing perspective. I'm a leader of a R&D 11 

### laboratory. And one thing that is certain is 12 

### that manufacturers understand their products. 13 

### And when you take the testing to an outside 14 

### laboratory, they don't know your product as 15 

### well as you do. 16 

### And it's imperative for the 17 

### manufacturers to have the ability if a product 18 

### is out of spec by a third party laboratory, 19 

### that if it is a nondestructive test, that they 20 

### be allowed to retest that product and see what 21 

### their determinations tell. 22 

### And at that point, you can make a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com219

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### determination as to whether it was the product 2 

### or the test that was at fault. And you can 3 

### investigate it further. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 5 

### MS. FABIAN: And interpretation of 6 

### the test method is also very critical at that 7 

### point in time because a lot of methodologies 8 

### leave interpretation very broad and can be 9 

### interpreted by various laboratories. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 11 

### You're next. 12 

### MR. NICHOLS: I guess the question 13 

### that I have on the ability to retest, one, are 14 

### there break-in periods that are allowed to 15 

### happen before the testing would start in that 16 

### we know for a fact that we have components in 17 

### the system that are -- when you first start it 18 

### up through what a typical test profile would 19 

### be, they're still wearing together. And their 20 

### efficiency and their performance improves with 21 

### time. So after a certain period of time, you 22 

### would have a much better performance, upwards NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com220

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### of two percent or more. 2 

### So, one, if there is a break-in 3 

### that a manufacturer can supply of running it 4 

### this long before the test starts, that's one 5 

### thing. And if it's not, you're going to see 6 

### manufacturers, especially the guys who have 7 

### scroll products in their systems, are going to 8 

### want to retest if they fall just short because 9 

### they know they're on the first part of that 10 

### burn-in time. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 12 

### MR. NICHOLS: Also, there are 13 

### going to be instances where you just find a 14 

### defective component in one of the samples, 15 

### which could dramatically affect the average. 16 

### And I think it would be reasonable to address 17 

### the defective component and retest the product 18 

### as well. 19 

### MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe. 20 

### Could you elaborate more on 21 

### defective component and also look at AHRI and 22 

### the water heaters? I'll use that as an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com221

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### example, but there may be other products as 2 

### well. 3 

### With any product that have foam 4 

### insulation, you could have voids in the foam 5 

### of any size. And, from what I understand, 6 

### those products may be sold into the 7 

### marketplace and not replaced. The consumer 8 

### wouldn't find out about it. 9 

### So it is a product that is sold to 10 

### the consumer. It is not detected. It is 11 

### representative of what is sold to the 12 

### consumer. 13 

### If you have a situation where you 14 

### might have a unit that doesn't, a component 15 

### that does not perform as designed but is 16 

### representative of what may be manufactured and 17 

### sold to the consumer, should that not be a 18 

### unit that is subject to test? 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: This is an 20 

### important question. Another important 21 

### question is whether we should pause for lunch, 22 

### Because I note that there are six NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com222

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### or seven individuals who wish to speak and 2 

### this is a really important topic, we don't 3 

### want to diminish anyone's capacity to comment. 4 

### Do you want to keep going or do you want to 5 

### pause for lunch? Lunch? Lunch? Let's pause 6 

### for lunch. 7 

### And then when we resume, when we 8 

### come back from lunch, we will take up exactly 9 

### as we were in this segment here. Pay 10 

### attention. You need to have these 11 

### instructions. Don't go anywhere yet. 12 

### It's five minutes until 1:00 13 

### almost. We're ahead of schedule. Please 14 

### quiet. We're ahead of schedule. That's the 15 

### good news. There are a lot of important 16 

### topics yet to be discussed. 17 

### Foreign nationals need an escort. 18 

### The cafeteria is out the door to the left up 19 

### the stairs. It's a big cafeteria. It's a 20 

### really rainy day. So it's going to be 21 

### crowded. Let's go for an hour for lunch, 22 

### which means we'll resume at 2:00 o'clock. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com223

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### There is also a Subway shop down 2 

### the hallway this way, almost 100 yards. 3 

### Please make sure you wear your badges in the 4 

### building. 5 

### When you come back out of the big 6 

### cafeteria up the escalator, you will need to 7 

### pass back through the X-ray machine just so 8 

### you understand that that is the way they do 9 

### security there. 10 

### This room will be -- we can't lock 11 

### it because there will be people in here 12 

### supervising this stuff. So you can keep your 13 

### materials here in the room. 14 

### And also there is a business card 15 

### summary, a Xerox copy of all the attendees, 16 

### out there on the registration table for those 17 

### of you who wish to pick it up. 18 

### So we will resume at 2:00. 19 

### Thanks. We have covered a lot of ground 20 

### already. 21 

### (Whereupon, a luncheon recess was 22 

### taken at 12:52 p.m.) NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com224

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for coming 2 

### back and being on time. We're going to 3 

### resume, and, as promised, we're going to pick 4 

### up just where we left off before lunch. By my 5 

### record, we have the correct slide up here on 6 

### the screen, Enforcement Testing, Testing at 7 

### Manufacturer's Option. There were several 8 

### commentors that were wanting to speak, so I 9 

### think you're next. Were you finished? 10 

### (Off the record comments.) 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want them to 12 

### respond to Defective Component now, or wait 13 

### for Michael to get back? 14 

### MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I would like to 15 

### continue discussing the Defect Component 16 

### issue. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Let's do that. 18 

### Okay. So, then please identify yourselves. 19 

### And, as I understand it, you've kind of put 20 

### your heads together with respect to Defective 21 

### Components? 22 

### MR. DOPPEL: Yes. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com225

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### MR. BROOKMAN: So, then tell us 2 

### what you're thinking. 3 

### MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, 4 

### Mitsubishi Electric. I've had several 5 

### experiences in testing over the last, I don't 6 

### want to say how many years, but where during 7 

### the test, it was revealed that one of the 8 

### components actually was defective either by 9 

### handling damage, or some other issue. Anyway, 10 

### AHRI has a provision that allows for a re-look 11 

### at a unit that has -- that experiences like 12 

### more than 20 percent, so if it's only at an 80 13 

### percent level, obviously, there is a gross 14 

### problem with that. But it may be 80-85 15 

### percent, I don't remember exactly what it is 16 

### off the top of my head. But that account for 17 

### like a thermal expansion valve, or compressor, 18 

### or fan motor not operating properly. And 19 

### those things, and even in a sampling, that 20 

### rare one somehow has the propensity to be the 21 

### one that's selected. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Paul, are you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com226

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### speaking on behalf of your company, or are you 2 

### reflecting the views of AHRI? 3 

### MR. DOPPEL: My company. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Your company. 5 

### MR. DOPPEL: Right. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Are there others 7 

### that wish to weigh in on this subject of 8 

### defective components? Let's do so now, 9 

### please. Your name. 10 

### MR. TRITSIS: Bill Tritsis, AHRI. 11 

### We can certainly provide you with some of our 12 

### guidelines and processes that have been 13 

### established, again, after 40, 50 years of our 14 

### experience running certification programs. 15 

### And there are cases where during shipment, a 16 

### component could be damaged, and it's not 17 

### visible; however, it affects the performance. 18 

### MR. DOPPEL: Yes. 19 

### MR. TRITSIS: And our regulations 20 

### do allow one defective claim; however, only at 21 

### our discretion to decide whether, indeed, it 22 

### was a defective component issue, or a quality NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com227

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### issue. So, again, it's not -- we receive some 2 

### documentation and we judge whether it is, or 3 

### not, but the cases do occur. 4 

### MR. DOPPEL: The issue that Mike 5 

### McCabe was raising was whether that's 6 

### something that would be reflective of 7 

### everything that's in stock, or everything -- 8 

### in most cases or not, I did have the 9 

### experience one time, however, where a 10 

### compressor manufacturer knowingly shipped us 11 

### compressors that were out of their 12 

### specification for a certain period, so that 13 

### would have been the situation that those were 14 

### out of spec. And it was -- I mean, it was not 15 

### anything that we could have known, because we 16 

### rely on the compressor manufacturer, or other 17 

### component manufacturers to supply products 18 

### that are within those specifications. So, in 19 

### cases like this, then it goes back to the 20 

### supplier, and you have to question whether the 21 

### manufacturer can be fully held accountable if 22 

### what they're getting is defective unknown to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com228

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### them, a small percentage unknown to them. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to ask 3 

### any additional questions, Laura? 4 

### MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I think the way 5 

### that we got on to the subject of defective 6 

### components was someone was making -- was 7 

### saying that it would be necessary for 8 

### manufacturers to test the same units that we 9 

### had tested in order for there to be a 10 

### determination that a component was defective. 11 

### And what I was wondering was, is that 12 

### something you cannot tell by looking at the 13 

### test data to see that there was a defective 14 

### component, and that's why that unit tested so 15 

### far off? 16 

### MR. NICHOLS: Jeff Nichols, Johnson 17 

### Controls. Sometimes you can see it in the 18 

### test data, and sometimes you have to fiddle 19 

### with it to find it. You get into diagnostic 20 

### activity. Often, the test data indicates two 21 

### or three things that you might think are 22 

### defective, but you don't know definitively NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com229

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### until you've examined it, and/or replaced the 2 

### component. 3 

### MS. BARHYDT: Thank you. 4 

### MR. DOPPEL: In the case of this 5 

### compressor problem that we had, it was only 6 

### through extensive diagnostic testing that we 7 

### were able to determine. And the percentage 8 

### off was like 10, 12 percent, so it wasn't a 9 

### lot, it wasn't like at the 80 percent level. 10 

### So, that was a particularly troubling 11 

### situation, it took some time to resolve. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I, 13 

### actually, think this gentleman here is next 14 

### and then I'm coming back to you. Yes, you're 15 

### next. 16 

### MR. DUFFY: Thank you. Oh, Mark 17 

### Duffy, GE Lighting. Before lunch, the topic 18 

### that had triggered my thoughts had to do with 19 

### the sampling plans and certification 20 

### requirements. And, of course, we want to urge 21 

### you to make acceptable ones, and we'll provide 22 

### comment on it. However, the enforcement NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com230

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### provisions that are in the NOPR should avoid 2 

### false triggers by random sampling variation. 3 

### One in particular that concerns the lighting 4 

### industry is lamplight. It is very prone to 5 

### small statistical samplings, 10 lamps, so 6 

### forth, reaching the wrong conclusion. So, 7 

### ultimately, we would like to see a high degree 8 

### of confidence to determine non-compliance, and 9 

### encourage the DOE to do computer simulation of 10 

### this before concluding that they have a high 11 

### degree of confidence that they won't have a 12 

### false signal of non-compliance. 13 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 14 

### MR. DUFFY: Thank you. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You're next, and 16 

### then to Kelley. 17 

### MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 18 

### Manufacturing. There are several issues here 19 

### that need to be discussed. Number one is, on 20 

### one of your previous slides you discussed how 21 

### often you tested the same unit. That is a 22 

### critical component, because under commercial NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com231

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### refrigeration rules you have a test condition 2 

### of 38 degrees plus or minus 2 internal 3 

### temperature shift. We've run tests on units 4 

### which we've notified different groups over the 5 

### years, because we've seen a 7 to 8 percent 6 

### shift in the test data within those 7 

### temperature ranges easily, and we've seen as 8 

### high as 12 percent shift in temperature range 9 

### from one extreme of the test condition to the 10 

### other. So, you've got to be very cognizant of 11 

### how the test is run, and that's one of the 12 

### discussions we have to be very careful of. 13 

### And, also, component variation is still there. 14 

### I think if we're doing our job right as 15 

### engineers, we should be taking in all the 16 

### standard component variations. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: In your comment, did 18 

### you say how you thought the Department should 19 

### address it, because I wasn't sure. 20 

### MR. HON: I didn't. We do not know 21 

### how to address that. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com232

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### That's important here. To the extent we can 2 

### identify it, right. 3 

### MR. HON: Because the 5 percent 4 

### variation, which they have put on, is the same 5 

### as UL has put on, and several other test 6 

### organizations have put into their standards, 7 

### is that during recertification testing, if 8 

### you're within 5 percent, it works. And we 9 

### don't have a problem, because somebody has to 10 

### draw a line someplace. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 12 

### MR. HON: But you have to 13 

### understand that there is variation within 14 

### those tests. And the manufacturers are 15 

### inherently going to run the test on the warm 16 

### end of the specification because it makes us 17 

### look better in published data. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Kelley. 19 

### MS. KLINE: Kelley Kline, GE 20 

### Appliances & Lighting. Just a couple of 21 

### points here as DOE considers its position on 22 

### not allowing additional testing at the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com233

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### manufacturer's request, and also the retest of 2 

### units that DOE has already tested. 3 

### I'd just point out here that I 4 

### think two really important considerations 5 

### there are the test procedure variability 6 

### issues, or interpretation issues that may be 7 

### out there, and also what was hit upon, and 8 

### there was some discussion on earlier about the 9 

### validating the results through round-robin 10 

### testing or otherwise at the test labs. And 11 

### I'm thinking here, in particular, about some 12 

### examples of where labs can test the same or 13 

### similar product and get very different 14 

### results. And I think that so long as those 15 

### variability questions exist among labs, and 16 

### also questions exist around test procedures, 17 

### it does put manufacturers in very difficult 18 

### situations at some time to be able to feel 19 

### comfortable and validate those results. So, 20 

### I'd just DOE to consider that. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Daryl. 22 

### MR. EARBS: Hi, Daryl Earbs, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com234

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### Manitowoc Food Service. I just -- my concern 2 

### I think is the same, that if we have defective 3 

### components, and we do from time to time, the 4 

### question about whether that would be 5 

### detectible by the end-user, in most cases it 6 

### is, it would result in a warranty call to our 7 

### company, and then we have a corrective action 8 

### process. So, if we can't retest, then the 9 

### other question would be, well, will you just 10 

### throw that result out, and how would you know 11 

### what result to throw out? But, clearly, if 12 

### there's a defective component that has a 13 

### significant impact on the performance, putting 14 

### that into the distribution is going to really 15 

### skew it. And I don't think that's what you 16 

### want to do. 17 

### If it's a test lab that doesn't 18 

### know some of the nuances of a piece of 19 

### equipment that they've tested, something they 20 

### haven't tested before, so that there's a 21 

### fairly complex process to figure out what's 22 

### wrong, they might just accept it not knowing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com235

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### that it was really not performing correctly. 2 

### So, I think it's something where industry 3 

### should be allowed to somehow interact in the 4 

### process before any judgment is passed, because 5 

### once you include that data and say it can't be 6 

### taken out, then it really gets difficult to 7 

### undo that effect. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Chuck 9 

### Samuels. 10 

### MR. SAMUELS: Thank you. Chuck 11 

### Samuels, AHAM Council. I understand the 12 

### interest in trimming down the section of the 13 

### CFR that you've got up there right now, but we 14 

### have to recognize that minimizing delay in the 15 

### enforcement process isn't the only, or even 16 

### the highest value here. The highest value 17 

### here is being fair and getting good and 18 

### accurate results. So, although it's true 19 

### manufacturers may perform testing on the units 20 

### at any time, you need to build in a process 21 

### where that can be accommodated before you come 22 

### to a final decision, because it doesn't do NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com236

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### them any good after-the-fact, after the next 2 

### press release has gone out, or after penalties 3 

### have been levied to do the testing. It should 4 

### be built in fairly early, it should be 5 

### expeditious. You can't let these things lag 6 

### forever, but you've got to integrate it into 7 

### your process so that it's real, and 8 

### meaningful, and not just some theoretical 9 

### right. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jim. 11 

### MR. VERSHAW: Jim Vershaw, 12 

### Ingersoll Rand. One of the key things in 13 

### taking data is to make sure that you've got 14 

### good gauge R&R on your test equipment, and in 15 

### your measurement techniques. And when you get 16 

### to the serious point of enforcement testing, 17 

### you test four units, and you fall out of bed 18 

### in terms of where you should be below 5 19 

### percent. I think there ought to be a way to go 20 

### back and make sure that the lab is actually 21 

### where it should be. In other words, you test 22 

### one of those four units four times, or five NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com237

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### times, get a gauge R&R, make sure it's not a 2 

### lab issue, not a setup issue, not a technician 3 

### issue, because we're way down the line here. 4 

### The next step from here is losing product for 5 

### commerce and clients, so we want to make sure 6 

### that there isn't some kind of false reading in 7 

### here that's causing -- 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Are you suggesting 9 

### how the Department should do that? 10 

### MR. VERSHAW: Yes, I just did. 11 

### Yes, I think they ought to run -- I think up 12 

### gauge R&R on the test facility on those units 13 

### that they run through enforcement testing. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Actually, 15 

### Harmon I think was first. Yes. 16 

### MR. LEWIS: I want to say amen to 17 

### the last couple of folks. One thing, are we 18 

### adopting the policy that you're guilty until 19 

### proven innocent, or you're going to be 20 

### innocent until proven guilty? Because it 21 

### sounds like we're the former, and that, to me, 22 

### doesn't sound right being an American. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com238

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### Second point, no ask, just 2 

### serious. I would suggest that you build into 3 

### the regulation that the manufacturer witness 4 

### the testing. Don't just send me test data, 5 

### because I'm like Mr. Ingersoll Rand there, 6 

### test data doesn't mean anything if the test is 7 

### set up wrong. So, let the people participate, 8 

### let us see it, because you're taking away 9 

### livelihood when you judge us guilty, so let us 10 

### prove innocence. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Andrew 12 

### DeLaski. 13 

### MR. DeLASKI: Andrew DeLaski, 14 

### Appliance Standards Awareness Project. One of 15 

### the themes that I've been hearing consistently 16 

### is this notion that there's variability, or 17 

### there's uncertainty in how to conduct the 18 

### test, that a given lab might not conduct the 19 

### test the way the manufacturer happens to 20 

### conduct it, as was said a moment ago, that the 21 

### manufacturers might tend to use the warm part 22 

### of the test method to give them the results NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com239

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### that best -- they might test a bunch of units 2 

### and find which ones get them the best results. 3 

### They know how to do these test methods, and 4 

### they have found the ways that give them the 5 

### results that are within what their 6 

### interpretation of the regulation that is 7 

### consistent. 8 

### And what I'm hearing is a concern 9 

### that any given lab, talk about the Department, 10 

### might not do it the way they do it. So, I'm 11 

### not sure where this belongs in this 12 

### conversation, but it brings us back to the 13 

### very test method, itself; that if there is 14 

### this kind of uncertainty in the test method, 15 

### this is a trigger to the Department to open a 16 

### rulemaking and fix the test method so that 17 

### there's transparency in how testing is done. 18 

### And if a manufacturer has concern that an 19 

### enforcement proceeding could be triggered 20 

### around a test method that they're interpreting 21 

### in a way that is, perhaps, warm, then they 22 

### ought to look for guidance before they're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com240

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### conducting that test in that fashion. So, I 2 

### think what we're seeing here is, over many, 3 

### many years, over decades that we have these 4 

### test methods, and there's lots of experience 5 

### in this room in independent labs, and how to 6 

### do them, but we need to be identifying where 7 

### is this uncertainty, so that there's 8 

### transparency, one, in how testing is 9 

### conducted; and, two, how do we fix it so that 10 

### we're getting results that are consistent. I 11 

### don't know how that fits into this overall 12 

### discussion, but we have to go back to the 13 

### methods, themselves, and their 14 

### interpretations. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 16 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: And just to follow 17 

### on that point, I mean that is the whole 18 

### premise behind our test procedure guidance 19 

### website. If there are areas for which 20 

### manufacturers, and/or labs, and/or any party 21 

### feels that there needs to be guidance, or an 22 

### interpretation made by the Department such NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com241

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### that ambiguities can be further investigated, 2 

### that is the premise behind the test procedure 3 

### guidance website that is now available for all 4 

### products. 5 

### MR. DeLASKI: And just to follow 6 

### on, this is Andrew, again. I mean, it also 7 

### speaks to the basic fundamental issue of 8 

### fairness that was also just raised, that are 9 

### we providing -- is the government providing a 10 

### level playing field? If one manufacturer 11 

### found a way to make the test method work to 12 

### get a better result, then the others are 13 

### disadvantaged by that, and so is the public in 14 

### terms of, potentially, in terms of energy 15 

### savings. So, I think it's sort of a very 16 

### fundamental issue. I think the guidance issue 17 

### is a start, but so is also making sure that we 18 

### have a mechanism to -- for the industry to 19 

### come forward with these issues, and have them 20 

### addressed in a way that is proactive, not just 21 

### in a way which is here comes the fine. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: The speaker behind NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com242

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### you is first. Yes. 2 

### MS. KAMMER: Yes. Claire Kammer 3 

### with Underwriters Laboratories, building on 4 

### make sure that the standards themselves are in 5 

### place in the guidance documents. There's been 6 

### a lot of talk about the technical competency 7 

### of labs making determinations, whether they be 8 

### the manufacturers' labs, first-person labs, or 9 

### third-party labs. All of that comes with 10 

### accreditations like 1702-5, so things like 11 

### gauge R&R are built into 1702-5. So, if 12 

### you're looking for some sort of metrics to 13 

### make sure that labs are performing in a 14 

### consistent way with the technical competency 15 

### specific to that standard, then accreditations 16 

### are the tool to be able to do that, and they 17 

### build in all of those aspects of best 18 

### practices across the industry. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 20 

### MS. BARHYDT: That, actually, leads 21 

### into the question I had listening to several 22 

### of you. Would -- lab accreditation is one of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com243

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### the things we have in mind for a future 2 

### rulemaking, and my question is, would having 3 

### lab accreditation in place and having 4 

### enforcement testing be done in those 5 

### accredited labs, would that alleviate a lot of 6 

### your concerns, some of you who have already -- 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You're first in the 8 

### queue, go ahead. 9 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski, 10 

### Baldor Electric. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: For those of you 12 

### that are listening on the webinar, the reason 13 

### for the laugh was a bunch of individuals just 14 

### stood up. Go ahead. 15 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski, 16 

### Baldor Electric Company, and also NEMA member. 17 

### To your point on accreditation, first of all 18 

### to answer that question, several years ago we 19 

### did a round-robin motor test study, same motor 20 

### sent to seven or eight of our companies that 21 

### are all NAB Lab certified facilities. The 22 

### test deviation we got was about 10 percent, so NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com244

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### your 5 percent really isn't going to work, so 2 

### that's a little bit tight. 3 

### The other question I have is, on 4 

### testing, besides motors, there's probably a 5 

### lot of these other products that are quite 6 

### large and not feasible to ship to a third

7 

### party laboratory for testing. There's 8 

### companies like UL, CSA, other test companies 9 

### that, potentially, could come in and do a 10 

### witness test. Is that going to be considered 11 

### a third-party test, even though the 12 

### manufacturer is testing it in his own NAB Lab 13 

### Certified laboratory. You have a witness 14 

### there from a third-party organization that 15 

### would be overlooking the testing. Is that 16 

### third-party enough for DOE? 17 

### MR. VERSHAW: Jim Vershaw, 18 

### Ingersoll Rand. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Jim, the Department 20 

### is deciding whether they want to respond to 21 

### this, or not. 22 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: His comment was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com245

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### specific to motors, but I think he's asking 2 

### more generally for products that it may be 3 

### applicable to, if I understood you correctly. 4 

### I don't think we -- I think it's fair to say 5 

### we could take it under consideration. At this 6 

### point, I don't think our regs are third-party 7 

### for enforcement testing. To the extent that 8 

### that is what you're suggesting, we could take 9 

### it into consideration. 10 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: There's going to 11 

### be labs that aren't going to be able to want 12 

### the test, large HVAC unit, or a walk-in 13 

### cooler, big motor. 14 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 15 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: Volume is not 16 

### there. 17 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Understand. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. 19 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. Jim. 20 

### MR. VERSHAW: Yes. Jim Vershaw, 21 

### Ingersoll Rand. I don't want people to get 22 

### the impression that manufacturers learned how NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com246

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### to tweak the test conditions in order to drive 2 

### efficiency numbers higher. That wasn't the 3 

### point I was trying to make. You know, in 4 

### terms of air conditioning, there's so many 5 

### different things in play in terms of the 6 

### indoor room temperature and humidity, the 7 

### outdoor room temperature. You've got three 8 

### different motors, you've got a compressor, 9 

### you've got two different fans, you have coils, 10 

### you have how much charge is put in the unit by 11 

### the person who installs it, so this isn't a 12 

### situation where we know how to magically make 13 

### the test work and the test labs don't. We, 14 

### actually, hold tighter challenges on energy 15 

### balance. We do certain things that we find 16 

### that when we do the third-party verification 17 

### testing, that the variation we're getting on 18 

### those are higher than what we get in our labs. 19 

### And if you dig into it, you find that well, 20 

### they couldn't quite set that one unit up 21 

### vertically because there wasn't room in that 22 

### test room, they had to lay it on its side, or NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com247

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### they didn't have the thermal couplers right, 2 

### or they didn't quite get the charge right. 3 

### And, as a result, you get variation. And we 4 

### could live with that through the third-party 5 

### verification testing process, and 6 

### qualification process, but when we get into 7 

### enforcement testing, that's pretty serious, 8 

### and that's where you want to make sure that 9 

### you're not getting fined after four tests, and 10 

### there was a problem in the lab; which an ISO 11 

### verification says you've got processes that 12 

### have been verified, but doesn't mean you 13 

### follow them everyday, or that particular 14 

### technician that day was doing everything 15 

### correctly. 16 

### And I know that labs we work with 17 

### have labs different parts of the country, they 18 

### can't correlate their test rooms with one 19 

### piece of equipment yet. So, there's a lot in 20 

### there that has to be looked out for. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Daryl. 22 

### Actually, Daryl, Kelley is next. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com248

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### MS. KLINE: Kelley Kline, GE. I 2 

### was just going to actually agree, Andrew, with 3 

### what you were saying about the need for DOE to 4 

### really approach some of the test procedure 5 

### resolution of interpretation issues through 6 

### revisions to the test procedure, itself. I 7 

### think it's in everybody's interest to have 8 

### very real clear guidance. 9 

### And to pick up on something you 10 

### said, and what the last gentleman said, the 11 

### issue I was trying to highlight was not really 12 

### the differences between a manufacturer lab and 13 

### a third-party lab, was that even these 14 

### differences will exist between third-party 15 

### labs, where you'll see test procedure 16 

### interpretation issues, or just ways the labs 17 

### do it differently, showing different results. 18 

### And going back to the guidance, 19 

### the DOE guidance site, I think that's a really 20 

### great start. One thing I think that DOE needs 21 

### to be mindful of there, though, as guidance is 22 

### issued on some of these test procedure areas NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com249

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### where there's not been a lot of clarity in the 2 

### past, at some points that may amount to really 3 

### new guidance, or a new set of interpretation, 4 

### or eyes on the test procedure where 5 

### manufacturers may not have been interpreting 6 

### it that way in the past. And I think in some 7 

### instances may need -- may beg for some period 8 

### of time for manufacturers to adjust plans for 9 

### existing product, and begin to look at the 10 

### test procedure the same way it's been 11 

### interpreted on the DOE website, so that's, I 12 

### think, a tension between the website and the 13 

### rulemaking process that would need to be 14 

### resolved. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Daryl. 16 

### MR. EARBS: Yes, I just wanted to 17 

### address the question -- 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Excuse me, Daryl. 19 

### It seems we have an interpretation from GC. 20 

### MS. WEINER: Stephanie Weiner from 21 

### the Department of Energy. Kelley, I just 22 

### wanted to mention that as part of that test NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com250

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### procedure guidance database, there will be in 2 

### most cases an opportunity for comments on the 3 

### guidance in which folks could weigh in on 4 

### issues that they feel will require time to 5 

### implement. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Daryl. Thank you. 7 

### MR. EARBS: Okay, Daryl Earbs. I 8 

### just wanted to address a question on 9 

### accreditation as a solution, and we've spent a 10 

### lot of time looking into accreditation. It 11 

### was really driven by some of the proposed 12 

### changes around Energy Star, because that's one 13 

### of the areas that they've looked at. And I 14 

### think it's a perfectly valid solution for 15 

### companies that that makes sense for. It's not 16 

### a simple process, it's something that -- we've 17 

### gone through ISO accreditation against other 18 

### standards to do 17025 is no small undertaking. 19 

### There are a limited number of bodies that are 20 

### available to do those accreditations. There 21 

### are other solutions, some of which involve the 22 

### nationally recognized test laboratories. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com251

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### We follow all of those practices 2 

### today, but to go through a formal 3 

### accreditation requires a lot of paperwork, a 4 

### lot of people's time. And I'd just like to 5 

### make sure that we have other options that give 6 

### you equivalent confidence, and traceability to 7 

### calibration, and gauge R&R and all the other 8 

### things. So, as long as we don't view that as 9 

### the only solution, then I think it's fine to 10 

### include that. But if we limit the options, 11 

### then I think that's going to slow the process 12 

### down, and become more of a hardship for 13 

### manufacturers. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I believe 15 

### you were next. Do you want him to go first? 16 

### All right. 17 

### MR. DeMARCO: Pete DeMarco with 18 

### IAPMO Warranty. Perhaps I could provide a 19 

### little bit of a balanced perspective on this. 20 

### Prior to working for IAPMO, I worked for a 21 

### manufacturer for over 30 years, so I'm kind of 22 

### understanding of both sides of this equation a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com252

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### little bit. And, first of all, I agree with 2 

### the comments that were made by UL. And 3 

### requiring labs that are certified to ISO 17025 4 

### is an important criteria. It does indicate 5 

### the labs are competent to run these tests. 6 

### They interpret the standards properly, and run 7 

### these tests, as they are intended to be run. 8 

### Having said that, from a 9 

### manufacturer's perspective, I think it's also 10 

### important to point out that while the sampling 11 

### schemes that are in place for these particular 12 

### product segments do establish a particular 13 

### sampling scheme that has a confidence level 14 

### assigned to it, that those were assigned to 15 

### those particular product segments with the 16 

### understanding that those would be conducted in 17 

### the manufacturer's test facilities. Now, if 18 

### you're going to add to that, changing 19 

### laboratories, changing technicians, and the 20 

### possibility of perhaps labs that are 21 

### unfamiliar with the products, testing these 22 

### samples, now the error bars increase. And you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com253

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### may need to revisit, in some cases, those 2 

### confidence levels. 3 

### I, also, would like to point out 4 

### that the higher the complexity, or the more 5 

### variability that's inherent to a product, 6 

### either through the material, or the 7 

### components, sometimes it's even the opposite 8 

### of complexity, sometimes the simplicity of a 9 

### product. If you think about a toilet with a 10 

### simple flush valve that opens and closes, it 11 

### doesn't meter water by a hundredth of a 12 

### gallon. It meters water as good as it can for 13 

### its intended purpose. So, there's variability 14 

### that's inherent to these things, so trying to 15 

### revisit those, or to think that there may be a 16 

### opportunity to tighten those just because time 17 

### has gone on may not be appropriate. So, from 18 

### a manufacturer's standpoint that kind of 19 

### balances it out. But, certainly, 17025 is a 20 

### big cogent to this equation. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Let me before you 22 

### leave, and for the others standing, and maybe NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com254

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### there will be others that want to respond to 2 

### this, you'll recall that one issue that was 3 

### left on the table was whether testing with 4 

### witness, presumably a qualified witness should 5 

### qualify as a third-party, so if you've got 6 

### additional comments on that, I think the 7 

### Department would welcome those. 8 

### MR. DeMARCO: Are you addressing me 9 

### on that? 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: If you wish to. I 11 

### think others will, as well. 12 

### MR. DeMARCO: Witness testing is 13 

### something that we at IAPMO do offer our 14 

### clients for certification to the plumbing 15 

### code. That may be different from different 16 

### from this enforcement testing. I would 17 

### encourage that we, on a case-by-case business, 18 

### that be considered. And I think for plumbing 19 

### products, it probably would be acceptable. 20 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 21 

### MS. STERLING: Joan Sterling with 22 

### Intertek. I'd like to address a couple of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com255

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### issues. Let me take the one you just 2 

### mentioned first, supervised manufacturer 3 

### testing, or witness testing, which is a common 4 

### practice by many accredited labs and 5 

### certification bodies. And, in fact, the IACCB 6 

### scheme even has a whole set up to deal with 7 

### that, so it's very common, and it is based on 8 

### specific individual requirements, and the best 9 

### way that they can be satisfied. So, all those 10 

### checks and balances can be built into an 11 

### accreditation requirement, whether it's 17025 12 

### or Guide 65, which is in the process of being 13 

### revised by ISO for certification bodies. So 14 

### there's, essentially, two levels of 15 

### accreditation; of course, one for 16 

### laboratories, and then one for certification 17 

### bodies that takes it to another level. 18 

### The issue with test standards, and 19 

### product standards is significant, and if a 20 

### standard is written properly, everybody should 21 

### be able to test the same way to that standard. 22 

### There are issues that do need to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com256

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### addressed, and addressing them initially on 2 

### your website is one thing, but the bigger 3 

### picture is that those standards need to be 4 

### taken into account, and, potentially, revised 5 

### to produce reproducible results from all 6 

### qualified laboratories. 7 

### Accreditation in the big picture 8 

### there are a number of qualified bodies that 9 

### provide accreditation services, and from a 10 

### test lab standpoint, our preference for that 11 

### is to be able to choose a qualified 12 

### accreditation body, whether it's NAB Lab or 13 

### A2LA, or ANSI, or OSHA under the NRTL program 14 

### that provides certain things. But it is up to 15 

### DOE to write into their program what they need 16 

### and the confidence level from an accredited 17 

### organization from a test laboratory or a 18 

### certification body. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I 20 

### believe you are next, and then back to 21 

### Charlie. 22 

### MR. WAGNER: Greg Wagner, Morrison NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com257

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### Products. To dovetail with what was just 2 

### said, even within the framework of accredited 3 

### labs that comply with those standards, you'll 4 

### find that there's variation beyond the 5 5 

### percent as recommended. And I can speak to 6 

### one, that's airflow measurement. AMCA, who is 7 

### a recognized leader in terms of airflow 8 

### measurement will tell you that it's greater 9 

### than 5 percent for measuring both airflow and 10 

### the power to drive the fan system. 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Would you recommend 12 

### a threshold, would you give a number for DOE's 13 

### consideration? 14 

### MR. WAGNER: I think that would 15 

### have to go case-by-case, depending upon what 16 

### you're measuring, what you're trying to 17 

### accomplish. Certainly, airflow goes into air 18 

### conditioning systems and other products like 19 

### that. You're going to have variations 20 

### associated with that air moving measurement in 21 

### and of itself that's greater than the 5 22 

### percent tolerance you talked about. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com258

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### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 2 

### MR. WAGNER: I think there are many 3 

### studies that cover these things to measure how 4 

### much variation is in a given appliance, and 5 

### then you can establish confidence levels based 6 

### upon that evaluation, but it needs to be more 7 

### in depth than just saying 5 percent across the 8 

### board. 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 10 

### MR. HON: Charlie Hon, True 11 

### Manufacturing, but I'm going to be speaking 12 

### now from a different perspective. I'm also 13 

### Chairman of the ASHRAE 72 Test Standard, which 14 

### is the test standard used for commercial 15 

### refrigeration. We have received, and I want 16 

### to compliment DOE and several other 17 

### organizations, because we've received a lot of 18 

### activity recently from DOE-associated groups, 19 

### like the National Testing Labs, Northwest 20 

### National Testing Labs, and several others, 21 

### actively pursuing tightening these test 22 

### standards. They're working very closely with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com259

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### us on that, and they are really drawing a 2 

### great amount of information before they come 3 

### to us and try and just make some ridiculous 4 

### remark. They're coming with sound engineering 5 

### judgments at this time, so I want to thank you 6 

### for that. And they are heavily involved 7 

### trying to get where they can guarantee that 8 

### that 5 percent could be met. 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. 10 

### Paul. 11 

### MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, 12 

### Mitsubishi Electric. Just a quick point of 13 

### clarification. I failed to mention that the 14 

### compressor, defective compressor example I 15 

### gave was with a company I used to work for, 16 

### not with Mitsubishi Electric. We make our own 17 

### compressors, and we have no problems. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: We welcome these 19 

### clarifications. So, I think that that's the 20 

### final commenting on this enforcement testing. 21 

### We're going to move on then to adjudication. 22 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, we're only NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com260

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### proposing slight changes to the current 2 

### adjudication process. However, currently, if 3 

### you look at the adjudication regulations, 4 

### there is not much there, so a lot of what 5 

### we're doing is actually trying to clarify the 6 

### process and make it transparent to everyone 7 

### about what they could expect if they were to 8 

### become involved in an enforcement action. 9 

### First of all, we're clarifying the 10 

### different types of actions that are violations 11 

### of the regulations, and those include improper 12 

### certification, failure to test, and 13 

### distribution in commerce after we've made a 14 

### determination of non-compliance. There are 15 

### many more, like failure to certify, and 16 

### failure to meet the standard, but those are 17 

### some that we've clarified explicitly in the 18 

### proposal. In addition, knowing 19 

### misrepresentation, and we're proposing to make 20 

### it explicit that making a representation about 21 

### the efficiency of a product is a violation. 22 

### With regard to civil penalties, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com261

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### each unit of a covered product or covered 2 

### equipment found to be in violation of a 3 

### prohibited act, such as failure to meet an 4 

### applicable conservation standard, constitutes 5 

### a separate violation. For the certification 6 

### requirements, the penalty is calculated for 7 

### each day a manufacturer distributes each basic 8 

### model in commerce without having submitted a 9 

### certification report. That's by the statute. 10 

### That is the way that that is calculated, and 11 

### those penalties can get very high. 12 

### What we have done is, we have 13 

### issued penalty guidance saying that we will 14 

### consider a number of factors when assessing 15 

### civil penalties, including the nature and 16 

### scope of the violation, the provision that's 17 

### been violated, the violator's history of 18 

### compliance, the size of the business, and the 19 

### ability to pay, timely self-reporting, and any 20 

### self-initiated corrective actions that were 21 

### taken. So, the statutory calculation is the 22 

### maximum penalty, and we do take a lot of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com262

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### factors into consideration when determining an 2 

### appropriate penalty. 3 

### Another provision that we have 4 

### proposed is that in addition to assessing a 5 

### civil penalty, where we feel that a 6 

### manufacturer has been making the -- submitting 7 

### a certification that it meets the standard, 8 

### and we've determined that that is, in fact, 9 

### not true, and that they are selling products 10 

### that don't meet the standard, we're proposing 11 

### that we may require independent third-party 12 

### testing for certification. So, as opposed to 13 

### requiring everyone to have independent third

14 

### party testing, we're saying that as a result 15 

### of an enforcement action, we may impose that 16 

### as a requirement for future certifications. 17 

### In addition, there's already a 18 

### provision in the statute, and in our current 19 

### regulations saying that DOE may compromise, or 20 

### settle a penalty amount, and that provision we 21 

### have retained. We've added a few more 22 

### paragraphs to make it a little more clear NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com263

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### about how that works, but the basic part of 2 

### that has not changed. 3 

### Any questions on adjudication? 4 

### MS. KAMMER: I just have something 5 

### very quickly that wasn't addressed, but it's 6 

### kind of adjudication-related. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: State your name 8 

### again, please. 9 

### MS. KAMMER: Oh, Claire Kammer 10 

### with Underwriters Laboratories. You mentioned 11 

### in the notice that you would remove 12 

### certification bodies from recognition if there 13 

### were incidents of poor reporting, or slow 14 

### reporting, or different criteria like that. 15 

### We just urge DOE to look, and actually outline 16 

### that criteria very explicitly, because similar 17 

### to what's being talked about for 18 

### manufacturers, certification bodies, 19 

### themselves, have to have parameters to make 20 

### sure that they're working within your 21 

### expectations and guidelines, versus just 22 

### making that an arbitrary statement that we NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com264

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### could do it, just put in print kind of the 2 

### finite details around that. 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Jim. 4 

### MR. VERSHAW: Jim Vershaw, 5 

### Ingersoll Rand, again. Back to Slide 33, it 6 

### says, "DOE may initiate enforcement testing 7 

### without written information from a third

8 

### party." 9 

### MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 10 

### MR. VERSHAW: Okay. So, what are 11 

### the rules and processes that you're going to 12 

### do to initiate an enforcement test? 13 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, 14 

### enforcement testing would be initiated when -- 15 

### under the proposal, we may initiate 16 

### enforcement testing at any time. It's pretty 17 

### straightforward that -- 18 

### MR. VERSHAW: Well, it sounds like 19 

### you can just wake up one morning and decide 20 

### okay, I'm going to enforcement test these guys 21 

### over here. Is there some criteria that you 22 

### have to go through to say this has to happen, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com265

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### or this has to happen, this has to happen. 2 

### And if all those things happen, then we will 3 

### initiate enforcement action, some internal 4 

### rules that you follow, or is it just whatever? 5 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 6 

### McCabe. That's one that if you had some 7 

### language to offer, I would appreciate it. 8 

### However, we have not been able to come up with 9 

### anything, because it's really on a case-by

10 

### case basis. We do not anticipate doing C 11 

### just randomly selecting units for the purposes 12 

### of testing for verification, but we do see 13 

### that we could end up doing that. But, for the 14 

### most part, it's going to be that there's going 15 

### to be some reason why we would initiate that. 16 

### There could be some exchange with another 17 

### agency, could be another program, the research 18 

### activity where they've torn down a unit. It's 19 

### impossible -- we have found it so far 20 

### impossible to identify it. But, principally, 21 

### we'd see that there would be some reason that 22 

### we would do it. We also are leaving it open NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com266

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### that we may, particularly when you look at 2 

### what's happened with the Energy Star testing, 3 

### that there has been -- roughly, 20 percent of 4 

### the units have failed to achieve that, that 5 

### that may influence in itself us to go out and 6 

### do some random testing. So, it's what the 7 

### situation, conditions with that product could 8 

### dictate whether or not we're going to -- 9 

### MR. VERSHAW: That says that you 10 

### may test something, decide to test something, 11 

### and then find a problem, as opposed to -- 12 

### MR. McCABE: There could be -- 13 

### MR. VERSHAW: -- some sort of 14 

### internal process -- 15 

### MR. McCABE: There could be that 16 

### case, but for the most part, initially, we'd 17 

### expect that we would find -- there would be 18 

### some reason, some problem that would lead us 19 

### to take that action. But, as I said, just 20 

### with the Energy Star verification testing, we 21 

### have found some questions which could, in 22 

### itself, lead us to decide maybe we should be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com267

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### doing random testing for determining 2 

### compliance with the standard. 3 

### MR. VERSHAW: So, would you use an 4 

### independent third-party lab for that testing? 5 

### MR. McCABE: At this point in time, 6 

### the plan is yes. 7 

### MR. VERSHAW: Okay. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Harmon. 9 

### MR. LEWIS: Harmon Lewis with 10 

### American Panel. I think you ought to do the 11 

### testing random, and start with the Zs and work 12 

### your way back to American Panel at A. 13 

### (Laughter.) 14 

### MR. LEWIS: I'd also like to turn 15 

### in all my competitors first, test them, and 16 

### then come find me. There's got to be, in 17 

### seriousness, there's got to be a reason for 18 

### that testing not just that you distrust the 19 

### whole world. In all seriousness, these are 20 

### extreme costs to most of us in the room, and 21 

### we're almost all of us small manufacturers 22 

### with very limited pockets, and the consumer is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com268

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### going to be the one at fault. Almost all of 2 

### us, if not all of us, try to follow all the 3 

### rules, all the procedures, will do anything 4 

### that's lined out, we appreciate that we're 5 

### part of the process, but there's also got to 6 

### be some protection from frivolous turn-in, 7 

### because I can just pick any one of them and 8 

### say, you know, I think he's doing wrong. But 9 

### if he's doing right, the people that say 10 

### they're doing wrong ought to be bearing the 11 

### expense, just like frivolous lawsuits. And 12 

### there's got to be some adequate ways to 13 

### protect yourself. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Tim Ballo. 15 

### MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with 16 

### Earthjustice. This is just a suggestion. On 17 

### Slide 44, you list a whole bunch of different 18 

### factors you will look at for assessing civil 19 

### penalties. And I realize the Department has 20 

### some discretion here. It seems to me, though, 21 

### that the more factors you put in makes it sort 22 

### of a judgment call to decide how much the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com269

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### penalties will be. You know, that might not, 2 

### necessarily, be the most fair thing, if 3 

### certain manufacturers have a better 4 

### relationship with folks at DOE than others. It 5 

### seems to me that you calculate in developing 6 

### the Energy Conservation Standards, the 7 

### manufacturer's markup across the industry for 8 

### a product. It seems to me that you can use 9 

### that type of data to relatively, within a 10 

### certain degree of accuracy, figure out how 11 

### much the manufacturer has actually benefitted 12 

### from selling a product that may not comply, 13 

### and maybe that should be sort of your starting 14 

### point for developing the penalty amount. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Charlie 16 

### Stephens. 17 

### MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, 18 

### Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. We're a 19 

### party that actually has done a fair amount of, 20 

### I guess what I would call based on what I've 21 

### heard today, verification testing. We can use 22 

### the same methodologies that DOE uses, and use NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com270

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### the same statistical analysis to come up with 2 

### the same results. And, as a side note, we've 3 

### actually been pretty pleased to see that most 4 

### of the time we get what the manufacturers are 5 

### telling us we should expect, defect parts 6 

### notwithstanding. 7 

### But I think in that case, if we 8 

### find something in our own verification 9 

### testing, and we're using DOE's methodologies 10 

### to do this, we're not just going to sit there, 11 

### I suspect. We'll probably let somebody know 12 

### that our verification testing has 13 

### statistically highlighted an issue. Now, I 14 

### don't know whether DOE would act on that basis 15 

### alone, or not, but it would -- to me, 16 

### enforcement testing would likely come out of 17 

### verification testing that went badly, or 18 

### something along those lines, or at least that 19 

### would be a logical thing to expect. And we 20 

### would hope that if we reported that through 21 

### our own verification testing, that something 22 

### would happen. Am I wrong? NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com271

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### MS. BARHYDT: Right now, we do, 2 

### actually, have a place on our website where 3 

### people can report that sort of thing, where 4 

### they've done testing, and they found that a 5 

### product appears not to meet the standard. And 6 

### that is the sort of thing that we have been 7 

### using up until now as the basis for our 8 

### enforcement actions. 9 

### I understand the concerns with the 10 

### open-ended language, but as Michael said, 11 

### there are a lot of different factors that go 12 

### into it, and we have limited resources. We're 13 

### not looking to just bring cases against 14 

### everyone. We're looking to bring cases 15 

### against people that we believe are in 16 

### violation. So, it's not the sort of thing 17 

### where we're picking names out of a hat. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You're next. 19 

### MR. COMBS: Steve Combs, ICS. I 20 

### have a question on Slide 45, the last bullet 21 

### point, goes into compromise and settlement. 22 

### You say that DOE will outline the steps to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com272

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### taken by both parties once a settlement offer 2 

### has been made. It sounds like we've gone from 3 

### trying to bring a product into compliance to a 4 

### lawsuit there. Who is the other party that we 5 

### would be settling with? 6 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, when we 7 

### bring a civil penalty action against a 8 

### manufacturer for failure to comply, if we are 9 

### able to reach an agreement where the -- say 10 

### the non-compliant products are no longer on 11 

### the shelf, and they've been pulled off the 12 

### shelf, and the product is now being produced 13 

### in such a way that it complies, and we've been 14 

### able to verify that, we may settle the case 15 

### for some agreed upon amount, and based on 16 

### those terms. The statute actually requires 17 

### all cases to go to an Administrative Law 18 

### Judge, so settlement means we're not going 19 

### through that process. 20 

### MR. COMBS: So, the two parties 21 

### would be the manufacturer -- 22 

### MS. BARHYDT: And the Department of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com273

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### Energy. 2 

### MR. COMBS: And the Department of 3 

### Energy. Thank you. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ellis. 5 

### MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig 6 

### Industries. You know, I appreciate the 7 

### Department of Energy's desire to not having 8 

### strings attached. With our company, I kind of 9 

### wish we didn't have all these strings attached 10 

### that we seem to be adding on. But to 11 

### arbitrarily leave this open without any 12 

### specification on what brings forth a complaint 13 

### to the Department of Energy lends for abuse, 14 

### maybe not this group, but somebody down in the 15 

### future, because it's a blank check. 16 

### MS. BARHYDT: Do you have criteria 17 

### that you would suggest? 18 

### MR. CRAIG: I would suggest that 19 

### whatever criteria you're going to use to make 20 

### a decision as to who you call in for testing, 21 

### that you itemize that decision making process, 22 

### and publish it, at least so that we can be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com274

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### assured that there is a process going that's 2 

### consistent with all parties involved. It 3 

### seems like a logical approach. Yes, it 4 

### probably will lend itself to not giving you 5 

### the flexibility you want, but I would like to 6 

### have a blank check to be able to make any kind 7 

### of walk-in I want without having to worry 8 

### about the DOE telling me how to do it, but 9 

### that isn't the way it works out. I think the 10 

### DOE has some responsibility to us to at least 11 

### let us know how these decisions are being 12 

### made, or the process that you go through to 13 

### make it. Okay? Thank you. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. 15 

### Other comments on adjudication? Ashley 16 

### Armstrong. 17 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Hi, everyone. 18 

### Okay. So, this is more an interactive thing. 19 

### We're going to talk about the potential for 20 

### DOE to create a verification program. We've 21 

### heard a lot about it today. We'd like to hear 22 

### more about it, so we're requesting NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com275

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### information. We haven't made a determination 2 

### yet on the role of verification testing as it 3 

### relates to DOE's certification, compliance, 4 

### and enforcement efforts. We're seeking 5 

### additional comments from everyone here, as 6 

### well as additional comments from everyone on 7 

### the webinar in writing. So, some specific 8 

### proposals. 9 

### What should DOE consider as it's 10 

### thinking about a verification testing program? 11 

### Some examples could include considerations 12 

### for identification of products, the percentage 13 

### of basic models that should be tested on a per 14 

### product basis. What type of roles could 15 

### voluntary industry certifications have with 16 

### DOE's verification program? What sample size 17 

### should be tested for verification? Any 18 

### comments, any thoughts inside that scope, 19 

### outside that scope, we'd appreciate. This is 20 

### when you run to the microphone. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer. 22 

### MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com276

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### AHAM. We, certainly, think that DOE should 2 

### leverage existing third-party verification 3 

### programs that are developed by industry trade 4 

### associations, such as AHAM. These 5 

### associations, I know AHAM considers all of the 6 

### issues that you just raised, and is happy to 7 

### discuss them with DOE, as we have with EPA, 8 

### for example. Such programs often provide the 9 

### most cost-effective use of limited lab testing 10 

### space, and can also provide a high level of 11 

### competency, which will yield the most accurate 12 

### oversight, which I believe is the goal here. 13 

### In fact, AHAM is currently developing and 14 

### revising existing programs expressly for this 15 

### purpose, as well as to help out with the 16 

### Energy Star enhanced testing. 17 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, a 18 

### follow-up question for you, and you don't have 19 

### to answer this on the spot here, but I would 20 

### be interested to know how you make these types 21 

### of decisions for your verification programs, 22 

### the percentage of units you guys plan to test, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com277

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### how do you determine which units should be 2 

### tested? I mean, this isn't applicable just to 3 

### AHAM, this goes to anyone that is involved in 4 

### any type of verification program, whether it 5 

### be industry, whether it be voluntary other 6 

### type. 7 

### MS. CLEARY: And we'll certainly 8 

### follow-up with that in our written comments. 9 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be 10 

### great. 11 

### MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe. 12 

### Adding to that would be the elements of a 13 

### third-party verification program that DOE 14 

### could stipulate. Should a qualified program, 15 

### DOE qualified program be one that would 16 

### provide DOE access to witness testing, DOE 17 

### access to records? How open should the 18 

### program be to DOE's inspection and comment, 19 

### would be examples of some issues we should be 20 

### interested in receiving some comment on. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Claire. 22 

### MS. KAMMER: Yes, Claire Kammer NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com278

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### with Underwriters Laboratories. To that 2 

### point, what's being put in place for 3 

### enhancement to Energy Star will actually give 4 

### you guys some of those tools to be able to do 5 

### some of that. One of the -- I actually got up 6 

### to speak a little bit to the concept that for 7 

### verification testing, you should recognize 8 

### programs are in existence for certification to 9 

### energy efficiency requirements, as they are 10 

### today. So, programs like UL had previously, 11 

### and many people know this from the safety 12 

### space, will have annual retesting, or four 13 

### times a year looking at products, for every 14 

### product, or every family of products. For 15 

### Energy Star and the enhancements there, our 16 

### Energy Star certification model is actually 17 

### going to go to the sample size dictated by 18 

### that program. So, there is some room to be 19 

### able to move within that, and that can be 20 

### calculated into a program. 21 

### I did want to call out, though, 22 

### that there should be recognition and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com279

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### encouragement for those products and those 2 

### manufacturers that choose to go to an 3 

### independent third-party certification scheme. 4 

### And, currently, in your motor program, and I 5 

### know motors are out now, but maybe harmonized 6 

### within, you guys actually have recognition of 7 

### products in the most case that are certified 8 

### by labs like Underwriters Laboratories, or 9 

### CSA. They're then exempt from a traditional 10 

### sample modeling, maybe run out of DOE, because 11 

### you recognize and are assured that that 12 

### verification sampling through the closed loop 13 

### system that's part of the Guide 65 14 

### requirements is in place, and it is happening, 15 

### and the reporting now goes into place. So, 16 

### for anything you do for the requirements for 17 

### mandatory efficiency requirements under the 18 

### Consumer Goods, you should recognize kind of 19 

### what you've done, and what's worked in that 20 

### motor space, and calculate that in to make 21 

### sure that that verification model is 22 

### recognized on the front end, and that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com280

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### manufacturers who choose to use independent 2 

### test labs aren't disincentivized from doing 3 

### so. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Jim. 5 

### MR. VERSHAW: Jim Vershaw, 6 

### Ingersoll Rand. We've been using the AHRI 7 

### programs for residential and commercial HVAC 8 

### for quite a while, and we think those are the 9 

### type of attributes you ought to be looking for 10 

### in a third-party verification program for 11 

### HVAC. 12 

### The other thing is -- 13 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Could you explain 14 

### to me what some of those attributes might be? 15 

### MR. VERSHAW: Well, there's a basic 16 

### model group. They randomly select 30 percent 17 

### of the basic model groups to be tested every 18 

### year, and they have a criteria where it's 19 

### either they do it by random, they do it for 20 

### cause, they do it for new models. And they 21 

### run them through, actually, I think it's ITS 22 

### Labs do all the testing. There's a -- it's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com281

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### the same tolerances that are used for the DOE 2 

### program, 5 percent. And there's penalties if 3 

### you have too many failures. And, of course, 4 

### if you drop below the minimum, you've got to 5 

### discontinue models, and do all kinds of 6 

### things, so it's very similar to what the EPA 7 

### has been looking for in terms of their 8 

### verification programs, which leads to my next 9 

### statement. 10 

### Don't create a third-party 11 

### verification at DOE that's different than what 12 

### Energy Star is doing, such that we end up 13 

### doing double verification testing. We're 14 

### already doing -- I'm doing about 100 tests 15 

### right now on split systems, and another 30, or 16 

### 40, or 50 on furnaces. That adds up to a lot 17 

### of equipment, a lot of time, and a lot of 18 

### money. And now if the EPA comes in and throw 19 

### in Energy Star verification testing from a 20 

### different subset, and we end up doubling that, 21 

### I mean, what's the value for us to be Energy 22 

### Star, that kind of thing? So, you guys need NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com282

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### to work together. You have an understanding 2 

### put together between you guys and EPA on 3 

### Energy Star. They ought to have the same type 4 

### of program in here, and use those results for 5 

### both. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Christina. 7 

### MS. CHANG: Christine Chang, 8 

### Natural Resources Defense Council. I just 9 

### wanted to list a few aspects of a verification 10 

### program that we think should be put in place. 11 

### The first is that there should be a clear and 12 

### published protocol that requires off-the-shelf 13 

### testing, where possible, and establishes 14 

### alternative protocols for products with 15 

### special considerations, where off-the-shelf 16 

### testing isn't feasible. 17 

### The second is that testing should 18 

### be done by independent accredited labs, and I 19 

### think accreditation will help to ameliorate a 20 

### lot of the concerns that parties here have 21 

### raised about consistency of laboratory 22 

### testing. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com283

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### Product selection for verification 2 

### should be done based on a combination of, one, 3 

### random selection, and, two, more targeted 4 

### selection of products for verification testing 5 

### based on direct input from DOE, and other 6 

### stakeholders. 7 

### And last, just as with 8 

### certification testing, verification testing 9 

### data, including individual model results, 10 

### should be made publicly available in some sort 11 

### of public database or website. Thank you. 12 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Karim. 13 

### MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 14 

### Well, we know AHRI has been running 15 

### verification programs, as you call it, we call 16 

### it certification program for over 50 years, 17 

### and I thought that those were known to you, 18 

### but, apparently, they are not. 19 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: We have to ask you 20 

### on the record. Right? 21 

### MR. AMRANE: All of our programs 22 

### are available online, so you can look at the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com284

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### documents. We'll be more than happy to share 2 

### them with you. So, we don't want the DOE to 3 

### reinvent the wheel here, if you can leverage 4 

### those programs already in place that were 5 

### established, and have proven themselves for 6 

### the last 50 years, or so. 7 

### However, in establishing those 8 

### programs, if it becomes a requirement, we want 9 

### to make sure that the DOE doesn't lower the 10 

### bar. Okay? So, we're talking a lot about 11 

### Energy Star, but Energy Star, if you look at 12 

### what they've done at this point for equipment, 13 

### their requirements are less stringent than 14 

### what we have currently in our program. So, 15 

### again, make sure that there's a level playing 16 

### field here, that what the industry has been 17 

### doing for the last 50 years is not lost in -- 18 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: To the extent you 19 

### can provide examples of how the proposed, or 20 

### the potential Energy Star verification program 21 

### is different than yours, and where you think 22 

### differences should be rectified, that would be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com285

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### great. 2 

### MR. AMRANE: Sure, we will do that. 3 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Pete. 5 

### MR. DeMARCO: Thank you. Pete 6 

### DeMarco, IAPMO, and I certainly encourage the 7 

### Department to -- we certainly encourage the 8 

### Department to take advantage of existing 9 

### certification processes that are already in 10 

### place for industries. As part of our 11 

### certification process, and our continuous 12 

### compliance process, we send inspectors to the 13 

### point of manufacture, each plant that a 14 

### manufacturer has unannounced and select 15 

### product from packed inventory. That selection 16 

### process is as good, and as valid as taking 17 

### product from a distributor, or from a 18 

### retailer, and certainly less costly and 19 

### disruptive to the marketplace. And we 20 

### encourage the consideration of that practice 21 

### going forward for this verification program. 22 

### And as I mentioned earlier, the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com286

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### plumbing industry is pretty well regulated, 2 

### and manufacturers are doing their due 3 

### diligence every day, the good actors, anyway, 4 

### are, and we encourage that the DOE take 5 

### advantage of these processes that are in 6 

### place, and are working for these 7 

### manufacturers. 8 

### In cases where products may not be 9 

### part of a recognized third-party certification 10 

### program, and that could be evidenced by a lack 11 

### of market conformity on a product, in that 12 

### case, then we do suggest that products be 13 

### selected out of retail, or out of point of 14 

### distribution, and testing be conducted on 15 

### those products due to a lack of evidence of a 16 

### independence compliance process. 17 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Paul. 18 

### MR. DOPPEL: Paul DOPPEL, 19 

### Mitsubishi Electric. One of the things that I 20 

### think is important for DOE to keep in mind is 21 

### the fact that all this testing costs a lot of 22 

### money to manufacturers, especially if you have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com287

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### larger commercial equipment, especially the 2 

### variable refrigerant flow type systems. Some 3 

### of our systems with the cost of the equipment 4 

### and the cost of the testing is like $50-70,000 5 

### per test. And it gets to a point where you're 6 

### spending so much money on testing that it 7 

### starts affecting the bottom line, and it 8 

### becomes a disincentive. 9 

### In developing the BRF testing 10 

### program at AHRI, one of the things we looked 11 

### at, and this is speaking for Mitsubishi, not 12 

### AHRI perspective, one of the things we looked 13 

### at was balancing between doing enough testing 14 

### so that people will be part of the program, 15 

### the certification, voluntary certification 16 

### program, and not testing so much that it costs 17 

### the company too much money, and people may not 18 

### want to participate, and try to do a self

19 

### certification. 20 

### So, there's a -- while we 21 

### encourage DOE to do this, we also want to keep 22 

### in mind that -- ask you to keep in mind that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com288

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### it is expensive for large commercial 2 

### manufacturers of HVAC. 3 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 4 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 5 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 6 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Moving on. I'm 7 

### just going to mention a couple of product

8 

### specific things, one that I know will get some 9 

### attention, in particular. So, as we noted 10 

### earlier, the Energy Independence and Security 11 

### Act of 2007 added prescriptive design 12 

### standards for walk-in coolers and freezers. 13 

### In this rulemaking, we are proposing to 14 

### clarify the entity responsible for certifying 15 

### compliance with the Department for walk-in 16 

### coolers and freezers. Currently, that 17 

### certification and our regulations are just for 18 

### those design standards. I understand that 19 

### test procedure rulemaking and energy 20 

### performance standard rulemaking is underway, 21 

### but as applicable here, it's only for 22 

### certifying compliance, if it is actually NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com289

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### adopted in the final rule, only for certifying 2 

### compliance to those prescriptive standards on 3 

### the books currently. 4 

### So, you can read our proposed 5 

### definition of the entity responsible for 6 

### compliance for walk-ins, and I'm going to open 7 

### the floor, because I see there's a line 8 

### already. 9 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Ellis. 10 

### MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig 11 

### Industries. I brought this up at the first of 12 

### the meeting, but I'd like to reinforce it a 13 

### little bit. This has been a point of 14 

### discussion since the first NOPR on this 15 

### definition, that the law was written in a way 16 

### that manufacturer wasn't defined, and that 17 

### leaves it open to interpretation, especially 18 

### in our industry, where we really make parts 19 

### and ship them to people, and people put the 20 

### parts together, and it becomes a walk-in 21 

### cooler with a whole system. So, it's very 22 

### complicated for the DOE to come up with a way NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com290

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### to apply this like you would a refrigerator, 2 

### because it's not assembled. 3 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 4 

### MR. CRAIG: From the definition of 5 

### this proposed compliance, I agree with the DOE 6 

### that it would be pretty hard to be doing 7 

### testing in the field where the part is 8 

### actually assembled, and to assure that 9 

### compliance is made by that person out there, 10 

### and do all this testing would be probably very 11 

### hard to do. But with the testing being done 12 

### by the people who make the parts that make up 13 

### the assembly in the field, the new proposal 14 

### here, or the proposal in this NOPR projects 15 

### that the installer is not included in this. 16 

### And I'm confused a little bit, and that was 17 

### the first thing that hit my mind because of 18 

### the definition that the DOE came up from legal 19 

### was that a person who manufactures, produces, 20 

### assembles, or imports a walk-in cooler 21 

### freezer. And assembles, to me, means who puts 22 

### it together, and yet we're one moment saying NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com291

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### that's the definition of a manufacturer that 2 

### we're going to use, and then in the next 3 

### minute we say but we're not going to put 4 

### anybody in there that installs it, which is 5 

### the assembler. So, I'd like some 6 

### clarification on how the DOE is choosing to 7 

### let the installer not be a part of this, when 8 

### he's defined in the definition of the DOE on 9 

### who the manufacturer is. 10 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So, my 11 

### first response would be, to the extent that 12 

### you could provide revisions as to what you 13 

### would think the definition of entity 14 

### responsible, revision to the definition, we 15 

### would welcome. If you believe that the 16 

### definition of the assembler includes that of 17 

### the installer, I think from a certain 18 

### perspective, DOE is thinking assembler may 19 

### mean the person who spec'd out the machine, so 20 

### maybe not physically installs, but physically 21 

### specs out. But to the extent you agree, or 22 

### disagree, we would appreciate those comments NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com292

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### in writing. 2 

### MR. CRAIG: Okay. We've submitted 3 

### those in writing. 4 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 5 

### MR. CRAIG: But I really feel like 6 

### I have one other question, that if you're 7 

### enforcing these regulations, and we sell the 8 

### walk-in to a dealer, and only the walk-in, and 9 

### the dealer decides to buy refrigeration from 10 

### somebody else, and he puts that in the unit, 11 

### and then he goes out and he hires an installer 12 

### to install it, a refrigeration contractor, a 13 

### licensed refrigeration contractor to install 14 

### it, and the installer does it incorrectly 15 

### according to specifications, who's going to be 16 

### liable for the product not being compliant on 17 

### site? 18 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think I can 19 

### answer that right on the spot here, because 20 

### there's a lot of pathways, but I have to think 21 

### about it on a case-by-case basis. But we 22 

### could follow-up. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com293

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### MR. CRAIG: Okay. Thank you. 2 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Please. 3 

### MR. GRIFE: I'm David Grife from 4 

### Arctic Industries. I hope you do follow-up, 5 

### because probably that critical path is really 6 

### what we're all about. There are too many 7 

### critical paths to this. One of the things I'm 8 

### not sure is, are there multiple manufacturers? 9 

### Can there be more than one? For example, for 10 

### manufacturing the box, and the refrigeration 11 

### come from somebody else, and the glass door 12 

### comes from somebody else, and then somebody 13 

### else installs it, and there's a problem. Are 14 

### we responsible? Is every single person 15 

### responsible? Is there one manufacturer, or 16 

### can there multiple at the end of the day on 17 

### one product? 18 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 19 

### MR. GRIFE: I'd like to really 20 

### understand that, because I'm trying to make 21 

### sure -- we also have to make sure you know, we 22 

### also have consultants out there who start when NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com294

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### a cheesecake factory decides that they want to 2 

### open a restaurant, we get a spec, and they say 3 

### this is what we want. I am a food service 4 

### consultant, and this is what I want for my 5 

### restaurant, my hotel, my hospital. So, we're 6 

### not spec'ing that, we're making them make the 7 

### choice. Do I have to send them a waiver and 8 

### say please sign this and say that you are 9 

### responsible, not me, so now you're the 10 

### manufacturer, or do I have to now put together 11 

### a group of documents to kind of push along the 12 

### path of who is responsible? 13 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So, to the extent

- 14 

### - who do you feel should be responsible? 15 

### MR. GRIFE: The person who specs 16 

### it. 17 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 18 

### MR. GRIFE: At times, they come to 19 

### us and say please provide us this information. 20 

### And you know what, we take responsibility now 21 

### because we're giving information based upon 22 

### our manufacturing process, our refrigeration, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com295

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### they send everything to us. If they break it 2 

### apart, I don't know what they do. 3 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: And to the extent 4 

### there's a clear way to differentiate who 5 

### spec'd out that, we'd appreciate that 6 

### information. 7 

### MR. GRIFE: Okay. We'll send you 8 

### some comments. 9 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 10 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 11 

### MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, 12 

### Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. I'm a 13 

### little concerned about this particular 14 

### definition, and I do have a lot of written 15 

### comments that I have submitted, and I will 16 

### submit, but a year ago, based on your 17 

### definitions here in number four, I became a 18 

### walk-in manufacturer, me. So, I'm a little 19 

### concerned about a definition that would make 20 

### me a manufacturer of these things. 21 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 22 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Daryl. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com296

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### MR. EARBS: Hi, Daryl Earbs. I 2 

### think at the beginning you prefaced it saying 3 

### that you really wanted to focus on how this 4 

### applies to the prescriptive regulations that 5 

### are currently in effect, and when I look at 6 

### this, and I will submit some written comments, 7 

### but today what we have are prescriptive 8 

### requirements that relate to the components of 9 

### the walk-in. They actually do not relate to 10 

### the entire assembly, so I'm not sure it's very 11 

### meaningful to talk about someone who does it 12 

### in its entirety, that could work, but it 13 

### really comes down to -- I think it's much more 14 

### manageable today, so the panel has to satisfy 15 

### a certain R value. Well, we know who made the 16 

### panel. I think the person who made the panel 17 

### is accountable that it satisfies that R value. 18 

### The fan motor has to be an ECM, or 19 

### brushless DC, or whatever we call it these 20 

### days. We know who put that fan motor inside 21 

### the unit cooler that went inside that walk-in. 22 

### And I don't see a big issue when you're at an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com297

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### individual component level that's fairly 2 

### concisely defined. I think there was 3 

### something about the infiltration reducing 4 

### meanings that were still a little bit 5 

### confusing, but a lot of them are pretty 6 

### straightforward. 7 

### I think you really have to think 8 

### about where we're headed, though, with the 9 

### performance standards. And if we continue 10 

### down the path of trying to define the total 11 

### energy consumption of the assembly, that all 12 

### these issues that are coming up, all of this 13 

### concern over who's going to be held 14 

### accountable, it's going to blow back up on us. 15 

### So, I, actually -- I'm more concerned about 16 

### us managing the performance standards effort, 17 

### so that we don't turn it into something that's 18 

### impossible to enforce. 19 

### I think by properly working on the 20 

### definition here, the current regulations can 21 

### actually be managed effectively. I don't know 22 

### how you're going to handle the certification NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com298

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### and the actual, I mean talk about enforcement 2 

### nightmares, I mean, here you're going to have 3 

### a lot of people to chase down on every single 4 

### installation, so I think that's an issue for 5 

### you, but I think it's something that, from a 6 

### regulatory standpoint, is workable. 7 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments, 9 

### perhaps final comments on these walk-in cooler 10 

### and freezer issues? Okay. 11 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. This one is 12 

### pretty straightforward. We're just proposing 13 

### data submission and requirements for the 14 

### fluorescent lamp ballasts. They were 15 

### originally proposed as part of a ballast 16 

### rulemaking, they have subsequently been pulled 17 

### in this one, and this is just to make everyone 18 

### aware that the proposals do reside in the CC&E 19 

### rulemaking, and they're similar to those that 20 

### were proposed. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Please. 22 

### MR. COOK: Keith Cook from Philips NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com299

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### Lighting. 2 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 3 

### MR. COOK: This may not be 4 

### possible, and, quite simply, it's because of 5 

### the fact that even though we do test all of 6 

### our ballasts through the manufacturing process 7 

### to these requirements, usually it's a go/no

8 

### go. We're not, necessarily, collecting 9 

### specific data; and, yet, that's what's 10 

### required for this submission. So, there's 11 

### hundreds of basic models, and some of them we 12 

### only run every few months because they're low 13 

### volume applications. So, it may not be 14 

### possible to even do what you're asking in a 15 

### 30-day period. 16 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. To the extent 17 

### you could explain why it's not possible, 18 

### either in writing, or here, that would be 19 

### helpful. 20 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, so suggest to 21 

### the Department what they should do. 22 

### MR. COOK: Yes. Well, it's a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com300

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### matter of time. 2 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, another 3 

### topic that has been queued up for round two is 4 

### the certification, compliance, and enforcement 5 

### with respect to electric motors. 6 

### We have acknowledged that DOE 7 

### plans to consider similar provisions that 8 

### we've discussed today for electric motors in 9 

### the second round of rulemaking. And we might 10 

### also consider issues specific to electric 11 

### motors, including the certification 12 

### requirements, and the certification compliance 13 

### numbers as they relate to different types of 14 

### electric motors. 15 

### To the extent that you have 16 

### specific comments, ideas, proposals for those, 17 

### we welcome them in preparation for round two. 18 

### Don't feel the need to stand up, if you want 19 

### to. There we go. 20 

### MR. BASSO: I feel so honored. Dale 21 

### Basso, WEG. We've seen the issue about the 22 

### compliance number, and coming up with a new NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com301

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### number. And, I guess, our thought process is 2 

### why do that? It's the same test standard. 3 

### It's just a higher level of efficiency. In 4 

### cases, in fact, it's kind of late in the 5 

### process, because of the fact that we're 6 

### already shipping compliant product. We're 7 

### already manufacturing compliant product for 8 

### EISA, so in changing the number, we'd have to 9 

### distinguish, tell customers why there's a new 10 

### number on this one, that's exactly the same as 11 

### this one. I'm not sure we understand the 12 

### benefit of that, but we will add the 13 

### additional numbers to the system on the 14 

### compliance, your online system. Which, by the 15 

### way, doesn't allow us to distinguish Type I 16 

### from Type II motors, but we'll just double up 17 

### the number we have. 18 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 19 

### MR. McCABE: Before you sit down, 20 

### this is Michael McCabe. If I could ask, make 21 

### a request, the electric motors is the only 22 

### product for which we have -- DOE received NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com302

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### applications from the manufacturers for 2 

### compliance number, and then we issue a 3 

### compliance number, which the manufacturer is 4 

### required to put on the product, whether or not 5 

### it's an imported product, or a product 6 

### manufactured, they're all treated the same. 7 

### The other industries that are here, 8 

### representatives of the other industries that 9 

### are here may not even be aware of that. And 10 

### if you could take a couple of minutes and 11 

### offer your perspective as to what its values 12 

### are, what its detriments are, what your 13 

### thoughts are as far as that, because it would 14 

### be useful to get a larger dialogue on the 15 

### subject of compliance numbers. 16 

### MR. BASSO: This is Dale Basso. 17 

### The compliance number, itself, has been 18 

### helpful from a standpoint of being able to 19 

### advise that we have a certified product, 20 

### especially when there's a lot of equipment 21 

### coming in from offshore, it's highlighted if 22 

### it was missing, that maybe it was not a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com303

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### compliant product. Although, enforcement was 2 

### rather lacking. 3 

### The downside of it is that we're 4 

### not sure what it means when you put it on. If 5 

### the compliance number says it's the minimum 6 

### efficiency product, but we've been selling 7 

### higher efficiency products with the same 8 

### number on it, so it really doesn't 9 

### distinguish. And there are products that are 10 

### exempt that are, for example, special shafts, 11 

### or special flanges that aren't exempt from the 12 

### certification at all, and sometimes it's on 13 

### there, sometimes it's not. So, in itself it 14 

### needs some tweaking as to the usefulness of 15 

### the number, itself. Having a certification 16 

### number for a manufacturer, which is what we 17 

### have, is just a way of distinguishing if you 18 

### put a third-party name plate on your motor, 19 

### you might have the same certification, so you 20 

### could tell who the manufacturer is. But it 21 

### doesn't drive it down to the basic model, or 22 

### anything, so I'm not sure how useful. I think NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com304

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### I can go either way on it, to be honest. But 2 

### I think changing it, at this point, is going 3 

### to confuse the market more than help the 4 

### market, because compliant product that was 5 

### previously compliant before EISA has the old 6 

### number on it, and if you put a new number on 7 

### the product, the old product is still legal to 8 

### sell, so it could be in the market for a 9 

### couple of years, and there'll be confusion of 10 

### is this allowed, what does this mean, what's 11 

### the difference? So, I think that if we're 12 

### going to have a number, I don't really see an 13 

### advantage to changing it. I'm not sure what 14 

### it would tell us. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 16 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski, 17 

### Baldor Electric Company. We are unique in 18 

### that we have been doing this for quite a long 19 

### time, as far as putting the number on our 20 

### motors. We've expanded our program at NEMA 21 

### where we have our own internal verification 22 

### process, and testing of our motors to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com305

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### certified under the NEMA Premium License, and 2 

### it is third-party testing up to the extent 3 

### that third-parties can test the motors, and 4 

### with the same problems that DOE would be 5 

### faced, should a 500 horsepower medium voltage 6 

### motor get chosen for testing, and lead time in 7 

### getting it, and so forth. So, we're doing a 8 

### pretty good job internally of the 14 members 9 

### of NEMA, which include some manufacturers that 10 

### build product overseas. 11 

### Where we're seeing the problem, 12 

### where motors are coming in under the radar, is 13 

### from the non-NEMA members, and in a larger 14 

### sense, motors coming in on OEM equipment that 15 

### just comes right through Customs without any 16 

### challenge as to compliance. So, how you would 17 

### tie whatever laws we already have in place 18 

### together with enough people in Customs that 19 

### would actually be able to looks at the 20 

### products and verify them. I mean, we could 21 

### turn in -- I could turn in a list of 20 22 

### manufacturers today that are sending motors in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com306

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### that are not compliant with today's rules, and 2 

### have no chance in being compliant with the 3 

### rules that are coming up in December. I mean, 4 

### it's going to happen, but they're going to 5 

### come in because nothing is being challenged by 6 

### them as far as coming in through Customs. 7 

### People are putting motors on pumps or 8 

### compressors, or what have you in Europe, or in 9 

### China, or India, or South America, and they're 10 

### coming in, and it's making it uncompetitive 11 

### for our domestic manufacturers that are buying 12 

### motors domestically here, that are compliant 13 

### motors, and it puts them at a 30 percent or 14 

### larger disadvantage monetarily. So, we've got 15 

### some problems there, a lot of big challenges 16 

### that we don't have the Customs manpower, 17 

### probably, to do that. So, it's something our 18 

### industry has worked well with DOE in the past 19 

### to do, and we want to continue working with 20 

### you in the future. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 22 

### MR. LADONNE: Frank Ladonne, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com307

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### Underwriters Laboratories. I really wanted to 2 

### -- I really came with the intent of making one 3 

### comment, but my colleague prompted a couple of 4 

### other thoughts. One is that, to the last 5 

### point that he made, UL has been very 6 

### successful in partnering with Customs. And I 7 

### think Customs looks forward to people to 8 

### partner with them, so we've done that. In the 9 

### cases where manufacturers previously were 10 

### bringing in products with counterfeit UL 11 

### marks, we partnered with Customs, and that has 12 

### been very successful. And I would encourage 13 

### DOE to partner with Customs in a similar 14 

### fashion. 15 

### MS. BARHYDT: We are, actually, 16 

### actively -- this is Laura Barhydt. We are, 17 

### actually, actively working with Customs at 18 

### this time. 19 

### MR. LADONNE: Okay. The second 20 

### point is that in terms of the levels of 21 

### efficiency changing, this is something that we 22 

### encounter all the time, because, certainly, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com308

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### the levels of safety in our standards changes 2 

### all of the time. And the way we deal with it 3 

### is not through a number, or through a mark, 4 

### but it's through our public database, our LIS 5 

### database which has all the listings, today has 6 

### all of the motor energy efficiency numbers for 7 

### those motors that we test. Okay? So, that 8 

### information is readily available, so anyone 9 

### can look up and determine does it comply with 10 

### today's requirements, or does it comply with 11 

### yesterday's requirements? So, I think the 12 

### public database would go a long way to 13 

### addressing that issue. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Tim 15 

### Ballo. 16 

### MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, 17 

### Earthjustice. No one has mentioned the small 18 

### motors yet, and my recollection is that DOE 19 

### was heading in the direction of not doing for 20 

### the small motors what it does for the integral 21 

### horsepower motors. I'm wondering if that 22 

### makes sense, either as a legal or policy NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com309

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### matter, to have a separate regulatory regime 2 

### for compliance of the small motors? It 3 

### doesn't strike me that it does, but I don't 4 

### know if the manufacturers feel that way. 5 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Thank you. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments on 7 

### motors? Okay. 8 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Fairly good 9 

### segue, enforcement for imports and exports. 10 

### DOE is proposed to add a label on imported 11 

### products intended for export to say "NOT FOR 12 

### SALE IN THE UNITED STATES." However, DOE is 13 

### also interested in seeking comment from all of 14 

### you on how DOE could modify its CC&E 15 

### regulations to more effectively enforce at the 16 

### border. So, to the extent that anyone has 17 

### suggestions or experiences, that would be 18 

### great. 19 

### MR. LADONNE: Frank Ladonne, 20 

### Underwriters Laboratories. Just a fast 21 

### comment. Within the past several months, I 22 

### would say that DOE has been very effective in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com310

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### getting this message out. We're hearing from 2 

### motor manufacturers loud and clear in Asia and 3 

### Europe, who are just scrambling because 4 

### they're understanding now that DOE is getting 5 

### very serious in terms of enforcement. So, I 6 

### think that message is out loud and clear, 7 

### pretty much worldwide. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Tim. 9 

### MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, 10 

### Earthjustice. Just to follow-up, you all have 11 

### mentioned a couple of times that you've been 12 

### talking to the Customs Service, to Homeland 13 

### Security. I wonder if you can elaborate a 14 

### little bit, what have they been telling you? 15 

### MS. BARHYDT: I'm hesitant to put 16 

### words in Customs' mouth publicly. I think that 17 

### it would be inappropriate for me to speak to 18 

### that. 19 

### MR. BALLO: Okay. 20 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 21 

### MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe. I 22 

### think it would be fair to say that they are -- NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com311

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### the dialogues are continuing, they're open to 2 

### the discussion and the ideas as far as how to 3 

### make it work, so we're not facing any 4 

### roadblocks, or any reluctance on their part to 5 

### solve this issue. It's just working out the 6 

### details. 7 

### MR. COULTER: Greg Coulter, Prolec 8 

### General Electric. We are a large importer of 9 

### distribution transformers. We are a large 10 

### exporter of distribution transformers. We 11 

### kind of see both sides of this issue. 12 

### We would propose that you look at 13 

### having importers put some kind of statement on 14 

### all their products, maybe even a symbol that 15 

### says it meets the DOE efficiency requirements. 16 

### We have transformers coming to the U.S. that 17 

### have to meet them, we have transformers that 18 

### are coming to the U.S. that are going to be 19 

### consolidated for shipment outside the U.S. 20 

### Although they fall under DOE rules, as far as 21 

### kVAs and voltages, and everything you require, 22 

### they're not going to be used for sale in the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com312

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### United States, so we like them to be so 2 

### labeled as "NOT FOR SALE IN THE UNITED 3 

### STATES." 4 

### We have other ones that are going 5 

### to be for sale, and then we have some that are 6 

### just going to be consolidated for shipment, 7 

### and don't have to meet DOE rules. They look 8 

### like every other transformer, and we're 9 

### finding -- we're dealing with Customs on 10 

### thousands of units a day, that they would know 11 

### that this is not even included in the DOE 12 

### rules, even though it is just like every other 13 

### distribution transformer that they see, so 14 

### that it has really three classifications, and 15 

### that somehow they be noted on the product so 16 

### any importer would say hey, it is for sale in 17 

### the U.S., and it meets DOE, it must be DOE. 18 

### Coming to the U.S., and it's not going to be 19 

### used in the U.S. for later export, and then 20 

### the third category is it's coming it, but it 21 

### doesn't have to meet DOE. And maybe if we 22 

### could have this pre-done, it would help us NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com313

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### with Customs, although we haven't run into 2 

### problems yet. We're dealing so much, and 3 

### we're dealing with Customs all the time, we 4 

### know that could be an issue. We give them 5 

### reams of paper now to get units into the U.S. 6 

### It would be -- we don't think it would be 7 

### that hard to add this to the unit. Matter of 8 

### fact, we'd like to see some kind of symbol on 9 

### these transformers saying they are DOE 10 

### compliant. 11 

### MS. BARHYDT: So, a lot of consumer 12 

### products are subject to the Federal Trade 13 

### Commission labeling requirements. Are you 14 

### suggesting that we adopt some sort of a 15 

### labeling requirement for commercial products 16 

### that would explicitly state that it was 17 

### compliant with the Energy Efficiency 18 

### regulations? 19 

### MR. COULTER: Yes. We have 20 

### customers asking for that, and we're afraid 21 

### they're going to come up with their own set of 22 

### requirements now. It would nice to have a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com314

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### common requirement. 2 

### What we would like not to see on 3 

### the transformer is have us do like motors, and 4 

### put the efficiency on it. The reason being, 5 

### we sell a heck of a lot of transformers that 6 

### are much more efficient than what the DOE 7 

### requirements are, and it's kind of like down

8 

### selling your product. We would like people to 9 

### know that they're much more efficient than 10 

### maybe what DOE requires, when we do that. 11 

### (Off the record comment.) 12 

### MR. COULTER: We would like not to 13 

### get into that at all, because what that 14 

### requires is yet another level of stuff we have 15 

### to put on it. We'd like to just say hey, it's 16 

### DOE -- meets DOE efficiency, or whatever words 17 

### we could agree on. We'd kind of like a 18 

### symbol, or something like that, and then go 19 

### from there. 20 

### MS. BARHYDT: What was your third 21 

### category? There were the products imported 22 

### for sale in the U.S., products imported for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com315

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### export, and what was the third category? 2 

### MR. COULTER: Products imported to 3 

### U.S. that don't have to meet DOE efficiency. 4 

### MS. BARHYDT: So, they're just not 5 

### regulated? 6 

### MR. COULTER: That's right. They 7 

### fall outside the category. 8 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 

### MR. COULTER: For instance, you 10 

### have voltage -- has to fit in with certain 11 

### voltages. We could sell a transformer outside 12 

### that voltage. It looks just like every other 13 

### transformer, but doesn't have to meet DOE. 14 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 15 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You're next. 16 

### MS. CHISOLM: Hi. Kelly-Ann 17 

### Chisolm, Office of Energy Efficiency, Natural 18 

### Sources Canada. We currently have a program 19 

### in place since 1995, and as you can 20 

### appreciate, our market is highly imports that 21 

### come in, so we have an extensive amount of 22 

### experience with imports. And what we do, and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com316

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### I don't know if DOE is planning on doing this, 2 

### or they're currently doing this, but we 3 

### require the dealer to provide NRCAN with five 4 

### data elements as they import the product, or 5 

### before the product is imported, so there's 6 

### items like -- information, such as model 7 

### number, type of product, brand name, address 8 

### of dealer, and one of the items is purpose of 9 

### import. And as the gentleman just before me 10 

### explained, there could be three types of 11 

### purposes of import. One is for sale or lease 12 

### in Canada, one is doesn't meet the current 13 

### standards, but will be modified, I'm not sure 14 

### of the current terminology, or it doesn't meet 15 

### the standard, has a reason for export. For 16 

### instance, it's going to be included in a 17 

### product that's going to be assembled in 18 

### Canada, and exported out of the country. 19 

### So, I'm not sure if your 20 

### discussions with Customs included that. We 21 

### work very closely with the Canadian Border 22 

### Services Agency, and they administer part of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com317

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### our legislation at the border for us. We, 2 

### actually, have the ability to stop product at 3 

### the border that doesn't meet the requirements. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: You're next. 5 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: John Malinowski, 6 

### Baldor Electric Company. I just -- the "NOT 7 

### FOR SALE IN THE UNITED STATES," wording is 8 

### just something that I guess not really 9 

### comfortable with. We have cases where, as 10 

### motor manufacturers, we sell non-compliant 11 

### motors to OEMs domestically, that they put 12 

### with a pump, or a compressor, or a machine, or 13 

### something intended for export, so it's really 14 

### for sale in the U.S., but not for use in the 15 

### U.S. So, if it, perhaps, would say "NOT FOR 16 

### USE IN THE U.S.," that might work better, as a 17 

### clarification. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 19 

### MR. MALINOWSKI: And to add to the 20 

### comments about NRCAN, the motor regulations 21 

### between what's required here and in Canada 22 

### have been harmonized since, about since NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com318

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### forever. Reporting is very similar. There 2 

### was a new form introduced by NRCAN where they 3 

### wanted more data than the basic data, and we 4 

### were hesitant to do that, because of 5 

### additional reporting. It's something that DOE 6 

### suggested we might do, as far as adding not 7 

### only horsepower speed, enclosure and such, if 8 

### we were to add mounting, and some other 9 

### attributes. If that were something that would 10 

### be more useable to make it easier for Customs 11 

### to control motors coming in, it would be 12 

### something that, perhaps, we would open up a 13 

### dialogue and talk more about. If it's not 14 

### going to be used by Customs, if it doesn't 15 

### serve a purpose, it wouldn't really be 16 

### something we would be interested in doing the 17 

### extra work, because what that would mean is a 18 

### company like Baldor, instead of reporting a 19 

### couple of hundred model identifiers, as we 20 

### would under EISA, we've got 150,000 motors, 21 

### and it would be this business where we'd be 22 

### adding hundreds of motors a week to that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com319

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### database as we would design new, unique model 2 

### numbers for custom applications. We would be 3 

### willing to consider doing that, if it's 4 

### actually going to get used, and we could close 5 

### the door with Customs, and keep non-compliant 6 

### product out of the U.S. Thank you. 7 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 8 

### Additional comments here? 9 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Are there 10 

### additional comments all together? 11 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So, now is an 12 

### opportunity for anybody that wishes to do so, 13 

### to make additional comments, issues that have 14 

### not been covered fully, issues that haven't 15 

### been covered at all, issues that are germane 16 

### to this subject matter, as succinctly, as 17 

### possible. Frank Stanonik. 18 

### MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 19 

### AHRI. This is an issue that hasn't been 20 

### covered, and, admittedly, is, perhaps, a finer 21 

### point, but in the enforcement regulations for 22 

### commercial industrial equipment, particularly NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com320

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### the one ofs, the build-to-order models, the 2 

### proposed rules acknowledge that DOE in an 3 

### enforcement proceeding may test more -- I'm 4 

### sorry, less than two units, and less than two 5 

### would be one, okay? And, yet, when you get 6 

### further down in reading the rules, it tells 7 

### you that the determination of compliance of 8 

### this one unit will be based on the sampling 9 

### plan in Appendix B. You can't apply sampling 10 

### statistics to a test of one unit. And I'll 11 

### tell you, I've read it more than once trying 12 

### to see what's there, so I think there's 13 

### something that needs to be added to better 14 

### address, hopefully, that very rare 15 

### circumstance where you are testing, 16 

### enforcement testing a model that is, 17 

### basically, built-to-order, and you've only got 18 

### one sample to test, and how the decision will 19 

### be made. 20 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Fred. 22 

### MR. MINELLI: Fred Minelli, Kaiser NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com321

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### Panel. Just wanted to add one more comment, or 2 

### a question really on Slide 50. The last 3 

### meeting, or the meeting before, there was 4 

### discussion of manufacturers, component 5 

### manufacturers would provide component data 6 

### points for their product, and all of this 7 

### information would go to this entity, whoever 8 

### this person would be. And that they would 9 

### input the data into a DOE assembled computer 10 

### program, or website. And that that's the way 11 

### the system was going to be handled, since 12 

### there's so many different components, and 13 

### manufacturers involved in this overall 14 

### process. Just wondered, it doesn't seem that 15 

### that is part of what we're discussing today. 16 

### Has that whole process changed? 17 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know what 18 

### was discussed at the previous meeting, so I 19 

### can't speak to that. But, as far as what's 20 

### being proposed today, it's an entity that is 21 

### going to be responsible for the compliance of 22 

### walk-ins, and that entity would provide the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com322

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### data to DOE through the -- with the proposal 2 

### through the CCMS online system. 3 

### MR. MINELLI: Okay. That's the way 4 

### I understood it. 5 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Paul. 7 

### MR. DOPPEL: Paul DOPPEL, 8 

### Mitsubishi Electric. On Slide 25 is where you 9 

### had the definition for distributing to 10 

### commerce, and I think it would be good, just 11 

### so you understand exactly the phrase that is 12 

### causing issues. 13 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll get there, 14 

### eventually. You can keep going, if you'd like. 15 

### MR. DOPPEL: Okay. It is the part 16 

### that says, that's the bottom, last bullet. 17 

### "To introduce or deliver for introduction into 18 

### commerce." That is the part that is just so 19 

### wide open that, again, it's causing us concern 20 

### about, if we have to certify before we can do 21 

### that activity, which is unknown, so we don't 22 

### want to put ourselves in situations where NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com323

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### we're trying to provide information to our 2 

### distribution base, because of the long-term it 3 

### takes to get the product specified and 4 

### installed, or we're in violation of something 5 

### that we think is okay, but could be 6 

### interpreted many different ways in there. 7 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have the 9 

### words for that? Okay. 10 

### MR. DOPPEL: Well, we could just -- 11 

### I mean, our suggestion would be to de-link 12 

### certification with distribute into commerce, 13 

### because it's just -- it's too encumbering. 14 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie. 15 

### MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens, 16 

### Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. I have 17 

### two comments, one in response to Mitsubishi's 18 

### comment here. I agree with what he's saying, 19 

### in part, from a selfish reason. Part of what 20 

### we do is, we look for emerging technologies, 21 

### and opportunities for large savings in the 22 

### near term. We frequently partner with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com324

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### manufacturers of various things to bring demo 2 

### systems in, and actually install them to find 3 

### out if they're even going to be compatible 4 

### with other systems, with our buildings, with 5 

### other components that we're promoting before 6 

### they're actually willing to bring that stuff 7 

### in on a long-term basis. We may get 10 units 8 

### brought in just to demonstrate, as 9 

### experimental, you might say. And, as I read 10 

### your regulations as they're written, that 11 

### would trigger certification, as well. And, in 12 

### some cases, it's before the manufacturer even 13 

### makes a decision to bring them here. 14 

### MS. BARHYDT: If these are new 15 

### technologies, are they covered products? 16 

### MR. STEPHENS: That would be C in 17 

### one case I can think of right off the top of 18 

### my head, they may not be, but they might be, 19 

### but no determination has been made. It's one 20 

### of those things that would probably end up 21 

### getting a waiver. 22 

### MS. BARHYDT: Okay. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com325

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### MR. STEPHENS: But they would have 2 

### to apply for the waiver at some point to get 3 

### it. I mean, so there's this -- DOE has 4 

### processes, but sometimes the manufacturer 5 

### wants to know if they even want to try it, 6 

### given the cost, and whether or not there's a 7 

### market for it, will it fly? And they may 8 

### decide never to, at least for now, bring it 9 

### in. That's happened. But it would trigger 10 

### your certification requirement, I think, under 11 

### those circumstances. 12 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 13 

### McCabe. I think the key is treading into the 14 

### law and engineering background didn't prepare 15 

### me for that, even though I claim it does, as 16 

### to what is the definition of distributed into 17 

### commerce. In answer to your question, there 18 

### are products which manufacturers, for example, 19 

### field test before they offer it for sale. And 20 

### what you're describing, Charlie, sounds very 21 

### similar to a manufacturer field testing a 22 

### product before they're offering it for sale. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com326

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### And distributing it in commerce, I've always 2 

### understood that as being offered for sale, but 3 

### there are products which are not offered for 4 

### sale, but are field tested that have -- 5 

### MR. STEPHENS: The word "introduce" 6 

### doesn't have that same connotation about 7 

### commerce, in my mind. So, anyway, I think 8 

### there's some work that could be -- I agree, 9 

### there could be some work on the language. 10 

### The other thing I wanted to note 11 

### here today is that this is probably the most 12 

### important rulemaking for my constituency that 13 

### we've seen from DOE right now, because I have 14 

### assembled here a collection of manufacturers 15 

### of things that represents my constituency's 16 

### interest, which is anything that uses 17 

### electricity. I participate in a lot of 18 

### rulemakings here that's a very narrow subset 19 

### of what uses electricity one at a time, and I 20 

### think everybody sees these things from a very 21 

### narrow perspective of this is one product that 22 

### uses a small amount of electricity in the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com327

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### United States. It's 3 percent of industrial 2 

### electricity use, or whatever it is. What 3 

### we're seeing here today is a collection of 4 

### people who build things that could comprise an 5 

### enormous fraction of the electricity used in 6 

### the United States, and DOE's own rulemakings 7 

### have showed us how big some of those numbers 8 

### can be. And I would suggest that what we're 9 

### interested in from this rulemaking is that 10 

### when we go through all the trouble to analyze 11 

### these things in these other rulemakings, and 12 

### try to understand how much energy they use, 13 

### and why they use it, and how they use it, and 14 

### what it costs to get it to use less, that what 15 

### we end up with in the economy of the United 16 

### States mostly resembles that. It's pretty 17 

### close to that, because if isn't, the 18 

### alternative is that my constituency, 139 19 

### utilities, electric utilities in the 20 

### Northwest, have to misallocate an enormous of 21 

### resources to generate the electricity to make 22 

### up for that failure. And I would suggest to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com328

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### you that that is a huge misallocation of 2 

### resources. And that the resources would could 3 

### allocate simply to make this all work better 4 

### are much smaller than that misallocation of 5 

### resources. So, I'm really pleased to see this 6 

### going on, and will help however we can. Thank 7 

### you. 8 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Ellis. 9 

### MR. CRAIG: Ellis Craig, Craig 10 

### Industries. I just have one question. 11 

### Realizing that the proposal and the definition 12 

### of the person responsible for this, what is -- 13 

### and I've asked in writing about four months 14 

### ago, and I still haven't gotten any results 15 

### from it. What is the definition of a 16 

### manufacturer as concern to the EISA law that's 17 

### presently in effect today? Who is the 18 

### manufacturer? 19 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: This is our 20 

### proposal of who that entity is. 21 

### MR. CRAIG: I know it's a proposal, 22 

### but to enforce it, you have to have something NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com329

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### in place today, surely, or you can't enforce 2 

### the law. Am I right on that? I mean, you 3 

### have -- if I called somebody and said hey, 4 

### this guy is messing up out there. You, 5 

### evidently, have to know whether he's the 6 

### manufacturer, or not, wouldn't you? 7 

### Otherwise, it's not being enforced. 8 

### MS. WEINER: This is Stephanie 9 

### Weiner from the General Counsel's office. As 10 

### I understand what's being described here, is 11 

### putting in place a service location 12 

### requirement for that design standard. At this 13 

### point, were the Department to initiate an 14 

### investigation of walk-in cooler and freezer 15 

### that did not comply with the prescriptive 16 

### standards that are in place, we would need to 17 

### make a determination, this is where we are now 18 

### on the definition in this notice of proposed 19 

### rulemaking. So, if you have comments on that 20 

### as you have expressed today, we encourage you 21 

### to put them in the record. 22 

### MR. CRAIG: Is there a definition NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com330

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### of manufacturer on file today? 2 

### MS. WEINER: There is the 3 

### definition in the statute. That is what we 4 

### would use. 5 

### MR. CRAIG: And what is it? 6 

### MS. WEINER: I believe it was on 7 

### one of the earlier slides. 8 

### MR. CRAIG: It's the one where the 9 

### assembler, the manufacturer -- 10 

### MS. WEINER: The definition in the 11 

### statute, as it would in any event, would 12 

### control. 13 

### MR. CRAIG: So, it's up to 14 

### interpretation what that means. 15 

### MS. WEINER: Yes. And this is our 16 

### notice of proposed rulemaking today for the 17 

### certification requirement, the proposal that 18 

### we have discussed already is the Department's 19 

### proposed tentative conclusion as to its 20 

### interpretation of how that statutory 21 

### definition would apply in this context. 22 

### MR. CRAIG: Would the Department of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com331

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### Energy's judicial people be able to, if I 2 

### brought you somebody and said this person is 3 

### selling walk-ins out there that are not 4 

### compliant, could you make that interpretation 5 

### today? 6 

### MS. WEINER: We would encourage 7 

### you, if you do want to identify someone, I 8 

### believe it was mentioned we have a place on 9 

### our website to report that alleged violation, 10 

### and then we would follow-up with you. And, of 11 

### course, we would want to know all of the 12 

### information that you had on which you based 13 

### your conclusion. 14 

### MR. CRAIG: So, you do have a 15 

### definition of -- 16 

### MS. WEINER: We have the definition 17 

### in the statute. 18 

### MR. CRAIG: All right. Thank you. 19 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 20 

### MR. NICHOLAS: Okay. Three closing 21 

### items. Jeff Nichols from Johnson Controls. 22 

### The reason I think Paul and I probably keep NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com332

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### coming back to distributed in commerce is on 2 

### page 44 of the presentation under 3 

### "Adjudication," it's saying from each day from 4 

### when we distribute it in commerce there will 5 

### be a penalty, so really we want to make sure 6 

### it's clear to everybody what that means, 7 

### because there's civil penalties that are 8 

### associated with that. 9 

### Number two, minor detail, but on 10 

### the enforcement testing, number of days going 11 

### from five to two, where you have to ship the 12 

### equipment, two days, a lot of manufacturers 13 

### just because of the significant cost of doing 14 

### an enforcement program, your shipping in two 15 

### days is going to require that people often 16 

### have to pay for special shipping and expedite 17 

### product. 18 

### MS. BARHYDT: It's not that it has 19 

### to be delivered to the destination in two 20 

### days, it's that it needs to actually be picked 21 

### up and in the mail, so to speak, in two days. 22 

### MR. NICHOLAS: Okay. So, then along NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com333

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### with that, just processing the paperwork 2 

### through an internal system, people are going 3 

### to have to step outside their normal -- the 4 

### business isn't going to work the way the 5 

### business normally flows. You're going to have 6 

### to do expediting activities. I don't know 7 

### that anything is being gained by going from 8 

### five to two. 9 

### And then the last thing is, just 10 

### for my clarification on basic groups on page 11 

### 14, for split systems, residential splits, 12 

### it's saying "Manufacturers treat models that 13 

### have, essentially basic, essentially identical 14 

### energy or water consumption characteristics is 15 

### a basic model." Are you all seeing that as 16 

### the entire system, indoor and outdoor 17 

### together, or are they outdoor units by itself? 18 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 19 

### McCabe. With split system central air 20 

### conditioners, as the whole body of the 21 

### regulation is written for the highest sales 22 

### combination to be the tested unit, we would be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com334

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### looking at the outdoor unit, focusing on the 2 

### outdoor unit for testing. 3 

### MR. NICHOLAS: Okay. Thank you. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Please. 5 

### MS. REMEDIOS: Thank you. Sally 6 

### Remedios with Delta Faucet Company. I'll make 7 

### one comment, and I have one question. The 8 

### comment reiterates something that was said 9 

### earlier today about the requirement that when 10 

### you make any change, you have to renumber your 11 

### model. For our particular industry, that's a 12 

### huge task, and it's certainly not what the 13 

### retail industry wants, either. They would 14 

### like to keep model numbers similar, even 15 

### though you do make a slight change, so we'd 16 

### like to reiterate that that would be one of 17 

### our comments back. 18 

### My second is a question, and that 19 

### is, for the last several years, we've been 20 

### trying to get information about our industry, 21 

### how many people are actually submitting 22 

### certification reports? Will that information NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com335

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### be more available now under the new rule, that 2 

### we will be able to find out how many 3 

### manufacturers are submitting reports to the 4 

### Department? 5 

### MS. BARHYDT: The final rule is 6 

### anticipated to be issued in December. I 7 

### wouldn't say that it would be immediately 8 

### available, but definitely in the next six to 9 

### eight months. After that, I would expect that 10 

### a lot more information will be publicly 11 

### available. 12 

### MS. REMEDIOS: Thank you. 13 

### MR. McCABE: This is Michael 14 

### McCabe. Adding to what Laura said, this is 15 

### actually part of a process so that the 16 

### electronics reporting system that has been 17 

### discussed, the CCMS, will facilitate our being 18 

### able to answer questions such as that. The 19 

### paper system that we've had heretofore, has 20 

### made much of that very difficult. 21 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Jim. 22 

### MR. VERSHAW: Jim Vershaw, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com336

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### Ingersoll Rand. I guess to summarize what I 2 

### heard today, for our standpoint, if the basic 3 

### model group definition for split system air 4 

### conditioners doesn't change from what it is 5 

### today, we're in good shape on that. If it is 6 

### changing, this could be problematic. We do, 7 

### as Jeff said, we do need to define the "put 8 

### into commerce" in such a way that we can let 9 

### our distribution know that we have products 10 

### coming. We may not have the actual ratings in 11 

### there yet for what the energy is, but at least 12 

### they know we have a new air handler coming, we 13 

### have a new outdoor unit coming, we have a new 14 

### furnace coming. We have to let our people 15 

### know in advance, and you don't have the final 16 

### tests done at that point, because it's too 17 

### early. It's just a matter of putting it all 18 

### together. 19 

### And the only one is the 20 

### enforcement testing. How you get into 21 

### enforcement testing, have a better definition 22 

### of what will trigger a need for enforcement NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com337

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### testing, and then to make sure that when that 2 

### enforcement testing is done, that it's done to 3 

### the point where it's fair for all sides. 4 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. A final 5 

### comment. 6 

### MS. REMEDIOS: Sally Remedios, 7 

### Delta Faucet. One more quick question. 8 

### There's an indication in this rulemaking that 9 

### you are going to try to work with FTC, with 10 

### respect to us being able to have one report 11 

### for both bodies. Is that feasible? Is it 12 

### about to be done? What's the time frame? 13 

### MS. BARHYDT: We're still working 14 

### with the Federal Trade Commission, and it 15 

### would not be immediately following this rule. 16 

### I would anticipate that it would be probably 17 

### more along the -- in conjunction with the 18 

### following rulemaking, because it would also 19 

### require changes from the Federal Trade 20 

### Commission, and so I can't speak to what their 21 

### time frame would be. But I would expect that 22 

### it would be with the next rulemaking, not as NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com338

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### part of this one, but we are working with the 2 

### Federal Trade Commission. 3 

### MS. REMEDIOS: Thank you. 4 

### MS. BARHYDT: I have a question 5 

### related to, a number of people have commented 6 

### that the -- our suggestion that renumbering 7 

### models when there was a basic model change, or 8 

### a change in energy efficiency, is problematic, 9 

### both from the marketing retail side, as well 10 

### as from the manufacturing marketing materials. 11 

### Would -- and I don't, necessarily, expect 12 

### everyone to jump up because this isn't 13 

### something that we had put out there before. 14 

### But in the conversations today, would it 15 

### simplify the process if you were reporting say 16 

### the initial serial number when that change 17 

### occurred, rather than creating some sort of 18 

### artificial model number scheme? So, 19 

### certainly, you don't have to comment on it 20 

### right now, but if in your written comments, if 21 

### maybe you could think about that, and address 22 

### whether that might be a solution, or if you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com339

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### have other suggestions for how we might deal 2 

### with that. 3 

### Our goal is to be able to track 4 

### when energy efficiency changes are happening, 5 

### and being able to tie that back to a 6 

### particular product in the marketplace. What 7 

### we've seen is that we can pull five units that 8 

### were manufactured over the course of a year, 9 

### and they all have the same model number on 10 

### them, but they don't all have the same 11 

### efficiency. And for enforcement purposes, 12 

### that creates a real problem. We need to be 13 

### able to know that we're actually testing the 14 

### same basic, when we pull things that have the 15 

### same model number. So, if there are other 16 

### ways for us to get at that information, that 17 

### is what we're trying to find. 18 

### MS. JAKOBS: Hi, I'm Diane Jakobs 19 

### from Rheem Manufacturing. And when I 20 

### submitted -- when we submitted written 21 

### comments before, one of the situations we had 22 

### is a furnace or air conditioner has a number NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com340

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### of components from different manufacturers, 2 

### and different vendors. And it could be in our 3 

### Bill of Material that we have a certain 4 

### component from two different vendors, and it 5 

### could affect the efficiency, which one you 6 

### use, so we would list the equipment with the 7 

### lower efficiency, but somehow in procurement, 8 

### or based on pricing, we might purchase a more 9 

### efficient one. And that can change day to 10 

### day, week to week, so that would be something 11 

### that would be difficult to document. So, your 12 

### de minimus, whatever that word was, that would 13 

### have an effect. If you're talking about 10 14 

### percent, that won't happen. If you're talking 15 

### about small efficiency changes, it's possible 16 

### just from the selection of components we put 17 

### together. 18 

### MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments? 19 

### That's it for my part, I'll turn it back to 20 

### the DOE folks. I'd just like to thank all of 21 

### you. It's been a very, very productive day. 22 

### I really appreciate the spirit of openness and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com341

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### ready exchange of information. It's very 2 

### helpful to the Department, and I'll turn it 3 

### back to Ashley, and Laura, and Michael. 4 

### MS. BARHYDT: Actually, I think 5 

### Stephanie wanted to -- 6 

### MS. WEINER: I just wanted to say, 7 

### as is evident, and as was said earlier today, 8 

### the Department takes energy efficiency 9 

### seriously, and as is clear, we are taking the 10 

### enforcement of our energy efficiency 11 

### regulations seriously, as well. And that's 12 

### not only because it's our obligation under the 13 

### statute to do so, but, also, because it's 14 

### central to the mission of the Department. 15 

### That said, the comments today have 16 

### been very helpful to us as we work through the 17 

### proposals that we've put forth. And from the 18 

### General Counsel's office, we welcome after 19 

### today, if folks want to come in as part of the 20 

### ex parte process to meet with us to discuss 21 

### particular things in more detail, there's 22 

### guidance about how to do that on our website, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com342

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### but we would encourage people to come in to 2 

### talk to us further, if they feel as though 3 

### there are issues particular to their products, 4 

### or issues that they feel were not sort of 5 

### fully addressed, or would like to have more of 6 

### a dialogue on. Thank you. 7 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to say 8 

### anything? 9 

### MR. McCABE: This is your 10 

### rulemaking. This is -- 11 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Great, thanks. 12 

### MR. McCABE: Our working together 13 

### at times, don't know which one is which, but 14 

### this is yours. 15 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, pretty 16 

### straightforward how to submit comments. I'll 17 

### remind you that they close by October 18 th 

### , so 18 

### any that you wish to submit early, we always 19 

### appreciate that. Most of you know how to get 20 

### a hold of me, if you have any questions. If 21 

### not, my name is on the website, along with my 22 

### contact information. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com343

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### We appreciate you coming today, 2 

### and all the comments that we have received. 3 

### To the extent you have additional questions 4 

### that we can help work through, I encourage you 5 

### to reach out. Safe travels home. 6 

### (Applause.) 7 

### (Whereupon, the proceedings went 8 

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