# Date: May 7, 2015

**Case:** ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Phone: 202-347-3700 Fax: 202-737-3638 Email: info@acefederal.com Internet: www.acefederal.comASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY PUBLIC MEETING ASRAC FANS AND BLOWERS WORKING GROUP MEETING

U.S. Department of Energy Forrestal Building, Room 6E-066 1000 Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20585

9:00 a.m. Thursday, May 7, 2015ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### 1 

## Appearances for Department of Energy Meeting 2 3 

## Ashley Armstrong, DOE 4 

## Wade Boswell, DOE 5 

## Stephen Fine, DOE 6 

## Pam Pontillo, DOE 7 

## Pete Cochran, DOE 8 

## Janet Freimoth, DOE 9 

## Brooke DuBois, DOE 10 

## Rob Boteler, Nidec Motor Corporation 11 

## Paul Lindahl, SPX 12 

## Larry Burdick, SPX 13 

## Mark Bublitz, The New York Blower Company 14 

## Tom Catania, Erb Institute 15 

## E. Duane Daddis, United Technologies 16 

## Steve Dikeman, Acoustiflo 17 

## Daniel E. Delaney, Regal Beloit America, Inc. 18 

## Mark W. Fly, Aaon Heating & Cooling Products 19 

## Dan Hartlein, Twin City Fan Companies, Ltd. 20 

## David A. Johnson, Berner International Corporation 21 

## Joanna Mauer, Appliance Standards Awareness Project 22 

## (ASAP)ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## Frank T. Morrison, Baltimore Aircoil Company 2 

## Laura G. Petrillo-Groh, Air-Conditioning, Heating, & 3 

## Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) 4 

## Aniruddh Roy, Goodman Manufacturing 5 

## Geoff Sheard, AGS Consulting, LLC 6 

## William Smiley, Smiley Engineering LLC 7 

## Meg Waltner, Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) 8 

## Chris Wiseman, Nidec 9 

## Michael L. Wolf, Greenheck 10 

## Gary Fernstrom, CA IOU's 11 

## Sam Jasinski, Navigant 12 

## Donald A. McNeil, Buffalo Air Handling 13 

## Stephen R. Wiggins, Newcomb & Boyd 14 

## Sanaee Iyama, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## P R O C E E D I N G 2 

## MR. BOSWELL: I'm sure you are all aware 3 

## that we are scheduled to start at 9. One group 4 

## requested that they have a chance to caucus amongst 5 

## themselves this morning. They are saying that 6 

## will take them about maybe 20 minutes, so we probably 7 

## won't get started formally for 15-20 minutes is my 8 

## guess. If you want to use that time or if there are 9 

## other people that want to spend that time kind of 10 

## conversing, I just wanted to make sure that you knew 11 

## that we would have a slightly delayed start. Thank 12 

## you. 13 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay do we have everyone 14 

## here? It looks like we are assembled. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Did you put the new slides 16 

## in? 17 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay so we are about 18 

## commence the second day of the working group for the 19 

## record. If we could just very quickly go around and 20 

## state your name and your company so we have that on 21 

## the record and then we will move into where we left 22 

## off yesterday.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. SHEARD: Geoff Sheard, AGS Consulting. 2 

## MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura Petrillo-Groh, 3 

## Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration 4 

## Institute. 5 

## MR. FERSTROM: Gary Ferstrom for the 6 

## California Investor Owned Utilities Pacific Gas and 7 

## Electric, Southern California Edison San Diego Gas 8 

## and Electric and the Southern California Gas Company. 9 

## MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane Company, 10 

## part of Ingersoll Rand. 11 

## MR. SMITH: Wade Smith with Air Movement 12 

## and Control Association. 13 

## MR. DIKEMAN: Steve Dikeman with 14 

## AcoustiFLO. 15 

## MR. GOODMAN: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. 16 

## MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, National 17 

## Resources Defense Council. 18 

## MR. WIGGINS: Steve Wiggins, Newcomb & 19 

## Boyd. 20 

## MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf, Greenheck. 21 

## MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 22 

## Standards Awareness Project.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. FLY: Mark Fly, AAON Incorporated. 2 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, the New York 3 

## Blower Company. 4 

## MR. BURDICK: Larry Burdick, SPX. 5 

## MR. DADDIS, Duane Daddis, Carrier. 6 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, Twin City 7 

## Fan. 8 

## MR. MCNEIL: Don McNeil, Buffalo Air 9 

## Handling. 10 

## MR. JASINSKI: Sam Jasinski, Navigant 11 

## Consulting. 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, DOE. 13 

## MS. LYAMA: Sanaee Iyama, Lawrence 14 

## Berkeley National Lab. 15 

## MR. FINE: Steve Fine, Office of Hearings 16 

## and Appeals. 17 

## MR. BOSWELL: Wade Boswell, Office of 18 

## Hearings and Appeals and Facilitator. 19 

## MS. PONTILLO: Pam Pontillo, Department of 20 

## Energy Facilitator. 21 

## MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer, ebm-papst, 22 

## Incorporated.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. HOWE: Nick Howe, Carnes Company. 2 

## MR. JOHNSON: David Johnson, Berner 3 

## International Corporation. 4 

## MR. WAGNER: Greg Wagner, Morrison 5 

## Products. 6 

## MR. COCHRAN: Pete Cochran, DOE. 7 

## MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, NIDEC. 8 

## MR. WISEMAN: Chris Wiseman, NIDEC. 9 

## MR. DELANEY: Dan Delaney, Regal Beloit. 10 

## MR. CATANIA: Tom Catania, Consultant to 11 

## AMCA and University of Michigan. 12 

## MS. FREIMUTH: Janet Freimuth, Department 13 

## of Energy, Office of Hearings and Appeals. 14 

## MS. DEBOIS: Brooke Debois, Department of 15 

## Energy, Office of Hearings and Appeals. 16 

## MR. LINDAHL: Paul Lindahl, SPX Marley 17 

## Cooling Towers. 18 

## MR. MORRISON: Frank Morrison, Baltimore 19 

## Aircoil Company and alternate for the Cooling Tower 20 

## Institute. 21 

## MR. PERSFUL: Trinity Persful, Clarage Fan 22 

## Company.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. BOSWELL: Okay and I understand that 2 

## we have two working group members who are also ASRAC 3 

## reps that are on the webinar with open mics so I 4 

## would just ask first Diane to introduce herself and 5 

## then Deborah. 6 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane Jakobs from 7 

## Rheem. 8 

## MR. BOSWELL: Is Deborah still on the web? 9 

## MS. MILLER: Yes I am, Deborah Miller 10 

## representing NASEO can you hear me? 11 

## MR. BOSWELL: Yes okay. 12 

## MS. MILLER: Thank you very much. 13 

## MR. BOSWELL: Thank you. Okay, so I think 14 

## where we are is picking up the discussion -- actually 15 

## to Laura I see your card raised is there something? 16 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Yeah hi, thank you for 17 

## your patience while we caucused this morning. We had 18 

## some very serious discussions about fans and 19 

## regulated products. There is concern in our industry 20 

## that regulating fans in regulated products will 21 

## impose an untenable burden on our manufacturers. And 22 

## I know there are challenges to making sure that fansASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## are not entering the marketplace and there are 2 

## loopholes to prevent where their fans -- would say 3 

## are going into their products and that they are not 4 

## and we are willing to work through all of those 5 

## issues, however when you look at you know, furnace 6 

## fans which are already regulated as a component going 7 

## into products whose energy efficiency is regulated 8 

## and now there is going to be stand by and off mode 9 

## power. 10 

## There has been a lot of discussions on 11 

## unitary equipment but you know from the discussions 12 

## we have been having you know, fans and packaged 13 

## terminal air conditioning units, single package 14 

## vertical units to water source heat pumps and 15 

## geothermal units, furnaces unitary equipment all 16 

## across the board, even residential furnaces could be 17 

## impacted by this. 18 

## I don't think that we would be even able 19 

## to figure out a test method and a metric that would 20 

## cover the situations where fans are being built and 21 

## the housing of those fans are actually integral to 22 

## the unit itself, but there are some of ourASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## manufacturers here who can speak in more detail about 2 

## those technical issues and if there is a few more 3 

## minutes I would like to have them share more of what 4 

## we discussed in the back room, would that be okay? 5 

## MR. BOSWELL: Thoughts on that? 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we hold up for one 7 

## second? 8 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Sure. 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Just not to, let's just 10 

## get this out of the way real quick because somebody 11 

## did ask me to confirm the schedule just before we do 12 

## a deep dive into scope because I imagine that is 13 

## going to last or the better part of the morning if 14 

## not the rest of the day. I think this is what we 15 

## have as the finalized schedule so I just want to make 16 

## sure that you all agree we will send out the formal. 17 

## Wade I did get approval to Chicago 18 

## meetings, so which one did you want so I can put it 19 

## on here? 20 

## MR. SMITH: Let me confirm that. We 21 

## talked about that. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So the June 22nd meetingASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## in Chicago. 2 

## MR. SMITH: Yes. 3 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Ashley could you make 4 

## it a little tighter? 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah absolutely. Okay 6 

## does that work? 7 

## (off mic) 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh you are right thank 9 

## you. So this is what I have, all the rest of them 10 

## would be in D.C. in June. 11 

## MR. WOLF: So this is Mike Wolf, I have 12 

## got a few concerns here with this just based on some 13 

## of the dialogue that I heard from some of the folks I 14 

## hung out with last evening is that on these Monday 15 

## meetings, I guess I would request that we start that 16 

## at noon because my fear is some guys are planning on 17 

## coming in and I know for myself I don't know that I 18 

## can get here by 9 on Monday and I know I am going to 19 

## have issues on some of the Sundays so some of the 20 

## guys are saying well I'm just going to come in and 21 

## I'll get to it at noon and if I miss a couple of 22 

## hours, fine.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## But I think missing a couple of hours of 2 

## these things is pretty dang important and I think 3 

## it's important that we have everybody here for the 4 

## entire meeting and not coming in late and then we are 5 

## going to have to rehash things and start over and it 6 

## is just going to be counter-productive if we can't 7 

## have everybody here for the start of the meeting so 8 

## my proposal is starting at noon on Monday and if 9 

## anybody has got issues with getting home because I 10 

## know we are going to lose a couple of our guys today 11 

## at noon or something like that and I have the same 12 

## concern on the back end. 13 

## If you feel you are not going to be here 14 

## for the entire meeting on the back end speak now 15 

## because I just don't think it's fair to this 16 

## Committee or fair to this process for people to be 17 

## cutting out early and I am certainly respectful of 18 

## everybody's personal time but you know we have to 19 

## make sure we set a schedule here that people can get 20 

## to. 21 

## Now let's move on and go back and revisit 22 

## the proxy issue. That was a joke, for the record.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: I have no problem with 2 

## that other than you are cutting out half a day's 3 

## worth of negotiations so maybe that's okay -- it's 4 

## really up to the Committee if we think we can do it. 5 

## Really you are just doing two half day meetings. I'm 6 

## not sure that will give you enough time ultimately. 7 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: It looks like there 8 

## are three Mondays that we are talking about? 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah I put them on the 10 

## noon thing. 11 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Okay can we maybe do 12 

## like 10:30 or 11:00 to -- 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: 6. 14 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: To 6. 15 

## MR. WOLF: I don't think I can get here 16 

## from central Wisconsin, I'm sorry we are near 17 

## Siberia. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: But at least 11 would be, 19 

## you would miss maybe the beginning recap and if today 20 

## proves anything 48 minutes -- 45 minutes of that was 21 

## caucusing with different groups anyway so. 22 

## MR. WOLF: Well true but I want to be hereASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## for that caucus. And I mean I have -- if we are here 2 

## I have no problem going later I mean, I don't know if 3 

## I -- but I think going to 6 or something maybe is 4 

## reasonable. Honestly by that time I'm starting to 5 

## wear thin, I don't know maybe the rest of you guys 6 

## have more stamina than me but if you would go from 7 

## say noon until 6 or 7 does that get us kind of back 8 

## to something reasonable Ashley? 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah let's try 6 I'm not 10 

## sure security wise I can get you guys out of here if 11 

## we stay until 9. Maybe that's not necessarily a bad 12 

## thing to get to consensus so. 13 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Ashley from what we are 14 

## seeing that will save about $400.00 per head per 15 

## night if we can just bring a pillow. 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: You know it may get to 17 

## that. We are going to become good friends. I can 18 

## bring my kids in for entertainment. So how 19 

## does this look? It's okay? It's okay. 20 

## MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly. Did we 21 

## eliminate the 7th and 8th I guess I missed that 22 

## yesterday?ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we moved them up a 2 

## week. 3 

## MR. FLY: Okay so there's a month there 4 

## for our June and July. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 6 

## MR. BOSWELL: I am also assuming that if 7 

## we are starting at noon that if people come prepared 8 

## we won't be breaking for lunch and working straight 9 

## through from noon until 6 for some normal breaks as 10 

## we go through. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah so just bring your 12 

## lunch if you have just arrived at the airport. 13 

## MR. BOSWELL: And also -- 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Reagan has some pretty 15 

## good eating options these days. 16 

## MR. BOSWELL: And if you have time to stop 17 

## at the DOE cafeteria you can bring things from there 18 

## as well. 19 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Do we need the same 20 

## noon time for the meeting in Chicago? 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, it's nice for the west 22 

## coasters who have to come out the day before for allASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## of the other meetings either way. 2 

## MS. WALTNER: That's nice. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay so I actually have to 4 

## announce these in the register so we are going once, 5 

## going twice it is not going to change. 6 

## MR. SMILEY: There is still a discussion 7 

## on the Chicago meeting do we start first day at noon 8 

## or earlier? 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: The west coast asked for 10 

## noon. 11 

## MR. SMITH: In this case you have people 12 

## traveling from the east coast. 13 

## MR. SMILEY: Yeah can they get there by 14 

## noon on the same day? 15 

## MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer speaking. What is 16 

## the purpose in Chicago, what do we do there, a lab 17 

## tour and things, can this be? 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we are doing the 19 

## same thing that we are doing here. It's going to be 20 

## actual negotiation sessions. To the extent you know 21 

## people are interested in a lab tour and AMCA is nice 22 

## enough to offer or host that I think we would do itASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## on a separate day before, day after kind of thing. 2 

## People would stay if they were interested in that but 3 

## these are going to be negotiated. 4 

## I mean we are going to have you know a 5 

## court reporter, we are going to have legal, we are 6 

## going to do our negotiation sessions just you know, 7 

## in Chicago. 8 

## MR. HAUVER: Right if you need a tour we 9 

## have to do it before or after. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct, that would be my 11 

## suggestion. 12 

## MR. SMITH: So our meeting room is 13 

## unfortunately going to be in construction during June 14 

## so if it's okay if we could move that to the July, I 15 

## think that would be better for AMCA. 16 

## MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf, Greenheck, I'm sorry 17 

## is that AMCA room going to be big enough to 18 

## accommodate this group? The training room? 19 

## MR. SMITH: Yeah the training room there 20 

## will be no problem. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 22 

## MR. SMILEY: So what are the start timesASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## then, did they change with Chicago or -- oh that was 2 

## based on that's a Monday, okay. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a Monday. 4 

## MR. SMILEY: Nevermind. 5 

## MR. WIGGINS: Steve Wiggins, doing noon on 6 

## Monday in D.C. does that help the west coast don't 7 

## you still have to come in the day before? 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well it's not the west 9 

## coast in D.C. it's the mid -- 10 

## MR. WIGGINS: No, I already -- actually 11 

## for the first meeting the 19th meeting, I'm leaving 12 

## to come in on Sunday so -- you have to 13 

## come in on Sunday. I can't get from Atlanta here by 14 

## 9 so -- 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean the 22nd is a 16 

## Monday. So is this something we can all live with? 17 

## Because I think we could tweak it forever and not 18 

## everyone would be happy but can we all -- are we all 19 

## happy enough to start off with scope? 20 

## MR. FERSTROM: Ashley this is Gary. I 21 

## know I can't make it the 3rd and 4th of August and I 22 

## was wondering if we might not move that to likeASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## Wednesday/Thursday of that week but others may have 2 

## had conflict so I'm just one person before we lock 3 

## this in I would like to ask what the issues others 4 

## might have with moving that back a little bit. I 5 

## would hate to have to miss the last meeting but I 6 

## know I have a conflict that I can't change. 7 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: You are proposing the 8 

## 5th and 6th? 9 

## MR. FERSTROM: Pardon? 10 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: You are proposing the 11 

## 5th and 6th? 12 

## MR. FERSTROM: Yeah I would request the 13 

## 5th and the 6th, okay -- can't make it. What about 14 

## the 6th and 7th? No? 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: You are past your 16 

## deadline. 17 

## MR. BOSWELL: I was going to say the 18 

## deadline this is August 6th as I recall. 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 20 

## MR. FERSTROM: Thank you. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: How about the 4th and 5th, 22 

## can we split the difference? One day for each ofASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## you? 2 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I would like to be 3 

## here. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So would he. 5 

## MR. FERSTROM: I'll send a proxy, not a 6 

## proxy. Sorry, sorry an alternate. 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean the only advantage 8 

## of not doing it the 3rd and the 4th is the 3rd is a 9 

## Monday so if we shifted it to a Tuesday/Wednesday 10 

## meeting we maybe could have the 9 to 5 which is our 11 

## last meeting before that term sheet and we may very 12 

## well need that time. 13 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: But we can still use 14 

## the 5th and 6th? 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We could or we could just 16 

## do full days, 4th and 5th. 17 

## Are people -- because I think I heard more people are 18 

## not willing -- would prefer not to travel on Sundays 19 

## and that is kind of family time I get it. 20 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: For the last meeting. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: 4th and 5th? Yes, 9 to 5 22 

## okay, 9 to 6, 9 to 5, 9 to whatever. Do you want 8?ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## We will just do 9, 9 until whatever. 2 

## MR. BOSWELL: The 4th and the 5th? 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah I don't know what I 4 

## just did but apparently -- 5 

## MR. BOSWELL: Both are 9 to 5? 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Okay so we moved 7 

## one. 8 

## MR. BOSWELL: Still two meetings. 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: All right that's it. We 10 

## will send out the schedule tomorrow so that everyone 11 

## has it. So I think it's probably good to pick up 12 

## where Laura kind of started us this morning and 13 

## really try to talk a little bit about scope. One of 14 

## the things that the team here was kind enough to do 15 

## last night overnight was to try to put in some of the 16 

## discussion into -- and I think this is what we are 17 

## talking about, into some slides to help facilitate. 18 

## This isn't necessarily representative of 19 

## DOE's opinion but this is representative of something 20 

## -- some of the discussion that we had yesterday so I 21 

## think we can talk about you know, what should the 22 

## scope be, should it be the same thing that AMCAASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## suggested yesterday? Should there be any exceptions 2 

## to that scope? Maybe exceptions isn't the right word 3 

## because they are still covered by I guess that's 4 

## where I think we would like to start the discussion. 5 

## I'm not sure exactly who would like to start it off 6 

## but -- 7 

## So this is Ashley from DOE. I think they 8 

## are intertwined right? I mean the ask is about 9 

## embedded products and so I think the discussion with 10 

## respect to where we are at, so is the ask from the 11 

## AHRI embedded product manufacturers that are 12 

## represented here for you to be completely not 13 

## included in the standards for fans, is that your ask? 14 

## Can you say for the record? 15 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Yes, that's what we 16 

## are asking. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay so then I think I 18 

## would like to hear at this point your proposal as to 19 

## how you think that could actually be administered. 20 

## MR. BOSWELL: And I will just remind 21 

## people when they speak, state your name and company 22 

## for the record.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. ROY: My name is Ahiruddh Roy, 2 

## Goodman. So Ashley I proposed an idea yesterday as 3 

## far as regulated products are concerned, we are 4 

## already submitting certification reports to DOE and 5 

## perhaps the fan manufacturers you know for them you 6 

## can add a column in the reports that states or 7 

## specifies that manufacturers applying that particular 8 

## basis model to an existing regulated product OEM, 9 

## something along those lines. And that would possibly 10 

## address this issue. 11 

## MR. FERSTROM: Ashley this is Gary. I 12 

## don't know at this point whether I support AHRI's 13 

## proposal or not but I think at a minimum there is an 14 

## enormous amount of energy saving potential associated 15 

## with this exemption and I think this group needs to 16 

## evaluate it in order to come to a prudent consensus 17 

## on how to treat this proposal. 18 

## So as we proceed I think it's important 19 

## for DOE and its consultant and lab analyst to look at 20 

## that market and evaluate how much energy is 21 

## associated with it. 22 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay so --ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. I don't 2 

## necessarily know if there is a large amount of energy 3 

## associated that could be saved with covered products. 4 

## I have not seen any data or analysis. I do know from 5 

## my experience that I do not believe there is a 6 

## significant amount of energy to be saved in regulated 7 

## products because they are already regulated to 8 

## product efficiency overall. 9 

## I believe that our design practices are 10 

## always to try to use the most efficient combination of 11 

## components. And the way they are applied I know from 12 

## experience that you can take an extremely highly 13 

## efficient fan and incorporate it into an OEM type 14 

## product and have a lower overall unit performance 15 

## because you are not utilizing the other components as 16 

## effectively. 17 

## For example if you take a house 18 

## centrifugal fan and you put it in a rooftop you know 19 

## it may not provide air flow distribution across the 20 

## coil. It may not end up utilizing the coil 21 

## effectively if you have that type of fan where you 22 

## could use a lower efficient fan that adapts andASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## interacts with those components much better. So I 2 

## struggle with how do we determine what the fan 3 

## efficiency is on an applied product or a covered 4 

## regulated product or an embedded fan. 5 

## Do you define the fan requirement as a 6 

## stand-alone where it doesn't operate that way and it 7 

## can't operate as it does in a unit without components 8 

## of the unit? Do you test the unit? If you test the 9 

## unit there's a million combinations to that unit so 10 

## you burden the manufacturer with testing and 11 

## regulating every one of those units. I just -- I'm 12 

## not ready to go to the point where let's say 13 

## regulated products, embedded fans should be covered 14 

## by this. 15 

## I think they should be exempted at this 16 

## point in time. Thank you. 17 

## MR. BOSWELL: I think Mark you are next. 18 

## MR. FLY: Okay you said most of what I was 19 

## going to say but you know a lot of times these fans 20 

## inside of packaged regulated products are applied in 21 

## such a way that you cannot pull that fan out and 22 

## actually put it in a 210 and test that fan alone,ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## nothing holds the fan up. I mean it's an integral -- 2 

## the housing and everything is an integral part and an 3 

## integral part of the next component become component 4 

## upstream and downstream in the airflow -- the 5 

## system effects that the cabinet impose on the fan 6 

## itself makes it operate completely differently than it 7 

## would with that stand alone fan test component. 8 

## So those are part of the complexities of 9 

## doing this and like you said there are a lot of times 10 

## when you are -- the applicability of the fan design 11 

## is very much related to the upstream and downstream 12 

## components and what you are trying to accomplish 13 

## there and so you could greatly affect the thermal 14 

## efficiency of the unit by changing the 15 

## characteristics of the fan. 16 

## And most of us that build packaged 17 

## equipment you know we don't care too much about 18 

## velocity pressure because we kind of live in a 500 19 

## foot a minute world, because that is what makes 20 

## heaters and coils run properly and there is very 21 

## little velocity pressure at that point. 22 

## Condenser fans are kind of the same wayASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## for your blowing, discharging up into the air so you 2 

## don't have the chance to static regain off that 3 

## velocity pressure and make that fan efficient. You 4 

## are basically doing an open free discharge so you are 5 

## not maximizing that. 6 

## If I go messing around with what kind of 7 

## condenser fan I have I will change the coil design or 8 

## the coil performance significantly and so my SEER or 9 

## EER or whatever metric we are using today on that 10 

## particular product will change drastically. 11 

## So the net goal is to save energy at the 12 

## point of use. It's better regulated with a bigger 13 

## envelope around what we are trying to save energy on. 14 

## MR. BOSWELL: Mike did you have a comment? 15 

## I think Gary you are next. 16 

## MR. FERSTROM: So this is Gary for the 17 

## California Investor Owned Utilities and I think the 18 

## advocates in general. We are not here to talk about 19 

## guessing, we want to find a way to measure these 20 

## things and evaluate them and come to a good, 21 

## objective, creditable consensus. My recollection 22 

## goes back to the pumps working group where theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## Hydraulics Institute noted that circulator pumps were 2 

## small and insignificant and ought to be exempted from 3 

## the rulemaking and not considered by the working 4 

## group. 5 

## It turned out that they were considered 6 

## and they were found to have associated with twice the 7 

## energy savings of all the rest of the pumps put 8 

## together so I don't think we ought to summarily 9 

## dismiss the opportunity to evaluate how regulations 10 

## might work for fans in unitary equipment. 11 

## I think it's important this group evaluate 12 

## that. Then based on the evidence we can decide how we 13 

## want to move forward. 14 

## MR. BOSWELL: Laura? 15 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I think some of what 16 

## we are struggling with, it's Laura Petrillo Groh, 17 

## AHRI -- I think some of what we are struggling with 18 

## is even how to capture that energy savings or not the 19 

## energy savings potential, but the fan energy in such 20 

## a wide variety of unit types in a variety of 21 

## applications so would there be suggestions on how 22 

## that could even be evaluated?ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. HAUER: I cannot understand why the 2 

## assembly of components -- of efficient components 3 

## results in a less efficient product. Of course you 4 

## would also have to redesign the unit in order to take 5 

## advantage of the efficiency gains for more efficient 6 

## components. This is just an ecodesign approach so I 7 

## think the industry should indeed not just replace the 8 

## fans with a more efficient fan but also redesign the 9 

## units clearly. 10 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: That's a good point 11 

## Armin. This is Laura Petrillo Groh, AHRI and then 12 

## Greg has a question. Has any of this to any extent 13 

## been captured in DOE's analysis to date and would it 14 

## be possible to capture the redesign of the units to 15 

## take advantage of the redesigned fans even in this 16 

## unit and again we just need to figure out how we 17 

## would be able to capture the energy savings for the 18 

## fans to evaluate it. 19 

## MR. BOSWELL: Ashley do you want to 20 

## respond to the question? 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. I think the 22 

## NODA that you have seen today doesn't account for theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## potential redesigns and the cost or the benefits that 2 

## they would provide from better products. Certainly 3 

## we are happy to work on that analysis. In order to 4 

## do so, the embedded product manufacturers would need 5 

## to come to the table with data and help us. 6 

## You know from what Gary is asking for, I 7 

## think it would be very helpful if AHRI and its 8 

## members and other embedded product manufacturers that 9 

## may not be members of the AHRI, would provide 10 

## connected load of OEM products as a percent of fans 11 

## connected load. That really gets to what you are 12 

## looking for, that helps inform the decision about 13 

## whether this does matter or not. 14 

## And to the extent you want to make a case 15 

## that they should or should not, that's really the 16 

## data that helps inform that case. So I think 17 

## realistically to back your proposal, for what you 18 

## are asking of this group, you need to provide data 19 

## that supports it. 20 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay I think Greg was next 21 

## in line. 22 

## MR. WAGNER: Greg Wagner, Morrison. IASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## think the discussion got lost on the fact that the 2 

## power and energy consumption of those fans is already 3 

## included in the overall regulation of those products 4 

## so we are not talking about eliminating the measure 5 

## of energy consumed by a fan. It is included in the 6 

## measure of how that unit performs and what the folks 7 

## here talked about is, it is an equation beyond just 8 

## the fan itself. 9 

## It's talking about how the heat transfer 10 

## and the effectivity of the rest of the system is 11 

## relative to that fan and those things go hand-in-hand 12 

## in terms of how you get to the most effective 13 

## product. And there aren't many cases where the 14 

## overall system design uses a less efficient than the 15 

## maximum efficient fan but achieves lower energy 16 

## consumption as a unit as a whole and it is those 17 

## kinds of products that the concern is from the 18 

## manufacturers of those equipment. 19 

## MR. BOSWELL: So I'm seeing three tent 20 

## cards on this side if we can start there and just 21 

## work down. 22 

## MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. I wouldASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## like to address two points. Gary made a point about 2 

## -- Gary Ferstrom made a point about energy savings 3 

## potential in unitary equipment. You know we should 4 

## assess what the certification burden would be for 5 

## let's say a manufacturer that just bought an impeller 6 

## and then you know modified the design based on the 7 

## cabinet needs and you know as far as the 8 

## certification burden is concerned you know you have 9 

## reporting requirements, additional reporting 10 

## requirements than what you currently have in place 11 

## for EER with the annual filing requirements and so 12 

## that should account for -- I think DOE already 13 

## addresses the energy savings in another rulemaking. 14 

## And so any discussion of energy savings 15 

## potentially should be part of that working group or 16 

## other rulemakings so that is one point and then as 17 

## far as the equipment redesign is concerned, you know 18 

## the point that Armin made. Again that's you know, 19 

## not in the scope of this discussion, you know the 20 

## equipment redesign is at a covered product level and 21 

## those are already being addressed at various 22 

## different rulemakings and DOE showing the quadASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## savings through those final rules so you know I don't 2 

## see why you know we are not already capturing that 3 

## energy savings potential through those regulated 4 

## metrics. 5 

## MR. BOSWELL: Wade? 6 

## MR. SMITH: Okay so Laura asked -- 7 

## MR. BOSWELL: Name and organization. 8 

## MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, Wade Smith. Laura 9 

## asked how would you calculate this you know, it's not 10 

## rocket science to determine the most typical fan 11 

## power draw in any particular unit size and 12 

## multiplying that number times the number of units 13 

## that are shipped in a year it's not a difficult 14 

## exercise to determine how large the connected load of 15 

## fans is in these markets. 16 

## So what Gary is asking is he would like to 17 

## see what that number is and I don't think that's an 18 

## unreasonable request. It's pretty simple. 19 

## MR. FERSTROM: So -- 20 

## MR. SMILEY: Were you called on? 21 

## MR. BOSWELL: Actually yeah you were up 22 

## and down.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. FERSTROM: This is Gary. With respect 2 

## to the dual regulation yes the unitary equipment is 3 

## tested, reported and regulated with respect to its 4 

## heating and cooling performance but correct me if I 5 

## am wrong, I think this unitary equipment for the 6 

## majority of hours in a year actually serves a 7 

## ventilation purpose in commercial buildings and I 8 

## don't think that ventilation function is really 9 

## captured by the heating and cooling performance test 10 

## so that's why I think it's important to evaluate this 11 

## opportunity. 12 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay, Geoff? 13 

## MR. SHEARD: Geoff Sheard, AGS Consulting. 14 

## Approximately 4, maybe 4 years ago, I had exactly 15 

## this same discussion with the European Commission 16 

## Policy Officer responsible for regulation 327 where 17 

## the point was being made regulating fans and 18 

## regulated units was unreasonable. 19 

## And his pushback was you are not going to 20 

## get away with it that easily, we are going to 21 

## regulate them, but we are going to regulate you too. 22 

## Get over it. And that was the end of the discussion.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## So I am not advocating that was a reasonable position 2 

## but I am advocating that I have got over it. 3 

## MR. BOSWELL: Laura I think you were next. 4 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: To Wade's point I 5 

## think that looking at the fan power as you have 6 

## suggested looking at it is not -- it is more 7 

## difficult than you have suggested. Looking at the 8 

## fan draw for the unit I mean we have got so many 9 

## different configurations of units with so many 10 

## different pressure drops and other pertinences within 11 

## these units that you would never even be looking at 12 

## the same metric as you would for a free-standing fan, 13 

## you are not looking at apples to apples in these 14 

## comparisons. 15 

## And I don't know what venue it would 16 

## evaluate. Mark knows a lot more about the testing of 17 

## this. 18 

## MR. BOSWELL: Ashley? 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think we are getting 20 

## a little off track here. Your ask of this group and 21 

## DOE to a certain extent is to make -- to potentially 22 

## consider not setting standards for certain types ofASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## fans, certain categories of fans that may be embedded 2 

## in products. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask 3 

## for data to support that. Why should we do that? 4 

## Not just ascertains, but I also -- I think more 5 

## fundamentally I don't think a self-declaration 6 

## manufacturer's scheme is an enforceable way to do 7 

## that either. So that's a non-starter for DOE. 8 

## So I want to hear what differentiates 9 

## these products. How would you tell embedded from not 10 

## and a manufacturer's self-declaration is just not 11 

## going to work. 12 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Ashley this is Laura 13 

## Petrillo Groh from AHRI. DOE's own analysis doesn't 14 

## include any of these products right now so it is not 15 

## just us who is not asking to be regulated, it wasn't 16 

## even DOE's consideration -- it hasn't been until now. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think that's 18 

## accurate. We put out analysis for which data was 19 

## provided to us to help inform interested parties you 20 

## know, to work with them. We are happy to do that 21 

## analysis and you haven't seen a proposal, you don't 22 

## know what analysis will come out that will support aASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## DOE proposal. We could revise analysis, we haven't 2 

## taken a policy position on what fans may or may not 3 

## be in yet. The proposed rule has not come out yet. 4 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: And that's what we are 5 

## here to discuss but in the framework document it said 6 

## regulated products were excluded, all of DOE's 7 

## analysis, all of the fan data basis have excluded 8 

## this until now so you know to discuss you know how we 9 

## would collect that connected load is one aspect but 10 

## you know no manufacturer impact analysis has been 11 

## addressed on DOE's side and that would need to happen 12 

## as well. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And I think this started 14 

## with my opening by saying we would be happy to 15 

## conduct additional analysis to the extent it was 16 

## needed if manufacturers would be willing to also 17 

## share some data about -- like the AMCA members have 18 

## to help support that analysis, we are happy to go 19 

## through that and help Gary with his decisions, but I 20 

## think fundamentally what you are asking for needs to 21 

## be supported by data. 22 

## And so that is what we are asking you toASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## do for this Committee. I mean this may be an issue 2 

## where we are just never going to get past it, I don't 3 

## know. I definitely hope that is not the case but I 4 

## certainly think we should figure that out today. I 5 

## mean if the answer is always going to be, you know 6 

## you shouldn't do it for x, y and z reasons but we are 7 

## not willing to go collect data or do additional 8 

## analysis or help DOE to do an analysis to help inform 9 

## the Committee's decision then I think that should be 10 

## stated. 11 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: And at no point did we 12 

## say that we would not collect data. We are having 13 

## trouble figuring out what data to collect and how to 14 

## collect it. 15 

## MR. WOLF: This is Mike Wolf, Greenheck 16 

## could I jump in? Let me maybe suggest we reframe the 17 

## question in the perspective here to something a 18 

## little more fundamental and that is kind of to Gary's 19 

## point there's a perceived significant amount of time 20 

## where this piece of equipment isn't a piece of 21 

## equipment, it's just a fan. 22 

## So the question is where does a fan beginASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## and where does the fan end. Okay? Because one of 2 

## the concerns here is an unintended consequence of 3 

## taking a fan, putting it in a box and I don't 4 

## remember if it was Bill or Mark that made the comment 5 

## or maybe Greg, I can't remember you know, I don't 6 

## know but you could take a fan that by itself can 7 

## stand alone, test it in accordance with say AMCA 210 8 

## the industry methods of test and it could perform 9 

## very, very well. Now you take it and you put it in a 10 

## box where you have dampers and coils and filters and 11 

## so on and so forth and you take a fan that's less 12 

## efficient as a stand-alone component and put it in 13 

## there and the less efficient fan actually ends up 14 

## working better because of all of the twists and turns 15 

## and stuff that goes on in the box relative to system 16 

## effect. 17 

## So there is also that concern that we have 18 

## an unintended consequence of taking a stand-alone fan 19 

## and actually end up using more energy when it is 20 

## applied in whatever this equipment happens to be so 21 

## that's one thought. The second thought I have is if 22 

## there is a and I'm not familiar with the regulationASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## you are talking about with regard to unitary 2 

## equipment so on and so forth, but I think there's a 3 

## theory here okay if I regulate the components, I 4 

## regulate the motor and I regulate the drives and the 5 

## fan in this stuff, that some of these more efficient 6 

## components makes the overall product more efficient 7 

## and one of the discussions that took place in our 8 

## breakout meeting was that you know what that might be 9 

## the case for motors, it might be the case for some of 10 

## the other components but that premise doesn't hold 11 

## for fans. 12 

## Just because you have a more efficient 13 

## stand-alone fan it is not more efficient when you put 14 

## it in the box. And I'm not here to say whether it is 15 

## or isn't, what I am here to say is if that product is 16 

## being regulated already, why don't you tightened the 17 

## screws on that regulation because it appears you have 18 

## got some loopholes in that regulation that is not 19 

## evaluating that product to the full extent of its use 20 

## you know and Gary's term if it is not used for 21 

## heating and cooling and that's all you are regulating 22 

## it for well then you have a loophole in thatASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## regulation. 2 

## Why you know, complicate this regulation 3 

## with something that is not covered properly in a 4 

## different regulation? 5 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay and I think Mark you 6 

## have been waiting. 7 

## MR. FLY: So Ashley you've asked for data 8 

## and I'm sitting here trying to figure out what kind 9 

## of data we could get you. I mean do you want data of 10 

## volume unit shift and the fan energy rated at a test 11 

## standard rating condition? Do you want it how it is 12 

## actually applied which sometimes we don't even know? 13 

## You know part of the problem with 14 

## equipment that we do you know we are not running at 15 

## maximum fan speed typically -- hardly ever, and we 16 

## are not -- and we apply you know that unit can be 17 

## applied at half inch of static pressure or six inches 18 

## of static pressure because it is going to a hospital 19 

## surgery suite with HEPA filters and everything else 20 

## status stream so you know I think that the industry 21 

## would like to provide data but we are struggling with 22 

## what kind of data you are really looking for. Are weASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## looking for reality or are we looking for some ideal 2 

## test standard condition? 3 

## Because a lot of time in the regulatory 4 

## and code world people want a pass/fail, one single 5 

## number thing and this is not a one single number 6 

## problem. 7 

## MR. BOSWELL: Duane? 8 

## MR. DADDIS: This is Duane Daddis from 9 

## Carrier. The question came up before how can we 10 

## differentiate these fans and one alternative I will 11 

## throw out is labeling. The fan supplier could supply 12 

## a label stating something like for use in only 13 

## equipment only or regulated equipment only. And the 14 

## second point that I wanted to make is I had the same 15 

## question that Mark had, Wade you had mentioned that 16 

## there was some way to calculate this but I am not 17 

## sure if we have really defined what we are going to 18 

## calculate -- is it a theoretical fan savings or is it 19 

## -- in reality it would be very difficult to determine 20 

## what the energy savings or the energy consumption of 21 

## one fan in my equipment and then if I put in a 22 

## different type of fan that would require a test orASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## some more sophisticated analysis that you know just a 2 

## maximum efficiency type analysis. 3 

## MR. BOSWELL: And we actually have one 4 

## member of the public on the web that has a comment 5 

## that we are going to open the mic for and that person 6 

## has been in queue for a while so if we could open the 7 

## mic for that comment. Could you identify yourself. 8 

## MR. GABR: Yes this is Sham Morten Gabr 9 

## from Multi-Wing in Denmark and we are also a 10 

## representative in U.S. in Cleveland and I have a 11 

## question whether it could be an option to consider for 12 

## unregulated equipment manufacturers to use the data 13 

## from repair manufacturers. The situation is that a 14 

## lot of OEM manufacturers are building impellers 15 

## and copying the motors and they are doing it by 16 

## ordering multiple kit samples, by that they can see 17 

## what is best for the final functionality so even 18 

## though the system efficiency problem they know by 19 

## trying different prototypes what would be the best. 20 

## So in short my question is: could it be an 21 

## option for unregulated OEM equipment to consider 22 

## using data from impeller suppliers?ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. BOSWELL: Okay thank you. We are 2 

## going to go back to comments in the room, if someone 3 

## would actually like to address we can get to that 4 

## comment or question kind of in queue as people are 5 

## waiting so, yes? 6 

## MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy, Goodman. I would 7 

## like to just go back to the framework document and I 8 

## know Laura has mentioned this a few times. The 9 

## framework document from 2013 has a section 1.1 which 10 

## says EPCA coverage of commercial and industrial fans 11 

## and concluding or the concluding summary in that 12 

## section says DOE is not considering standards for 13 

## fans that are a component in regulated commercial 14 

## products in this rulemaking. 15 

## I would like to know in these last few 16 

## years what has changed that interpretation from an 17 

## EPCA standpoint and whether DOE got some date in 18 

## those two years to suggest that this stance should 19 

## change currently. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from DOE 21 

## and I think we are mixing apples and oranges as we 22 

## clearly stated at the outset of this. You know theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## fan -- there's no fan definition right now in EPCA. 2 

## DOE has the authority to cover fans. Now DOE is 3 

## going to set up a definition so you are mixing EPCA 4 

## with what DOE tentatively stated at the outset of the 5 

## framework document and as we do in our rules we get 6 

## comments and we have investigated further and we have 7 

## learned stuff over the last couple of years because 8 

## it is our due diligence to do the analysis, to look 9 

## at the market, to better understand the products and 10 

## how they might be regulated and I think what we have 11 

## found over that time frame is that it is really hard 12 

## to differentiate that from the point of the fan 13 

## manufacturer -- it's really nearly impossible to 14 

## differentiate with a fine line what would be a fan 15 

## that's embedded and what would be a fan that's not. 16 

## That raises the issue of a potential major 17 

## loophole. Now like I said it's not a foregone 18 

## conclusion for the Department, we haven't made a 19 

## policy decision as to what we want to do with fans, 20 

## but what I am trying to tell you is we are here to 21 

## discuss it. We are not here to relive the framework 22 

## document. You can keep talking about it but -- weASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## have moved on. 2 

## MR. ROY: Yeah Ashley -- 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Hold on, but I think 4 

## moreover to that we are here to come together on a 5 

## consensus and you are asking for the Committee to 6 

## consider something and what you are hearing from the 7 

## concerns of the Department is differentiation, 8 

## enforceability, loopholes. From the point of the fan 9 

## manufacturer, how do we tell the difference and we 10 

## are open to considering all aspects of the scope of 11 

## this rule however self-declaration is not on the 12 

## table. 13 

## MR. ROY: Anniruddh Roy, Goodman. I think 14 

## Greg Wagner yesterday had made a point about the fact 15 

## that there is a way for fan manufacturers to capture 16 

## that information. I think correct me if I am wrong, 17 

## but the Morrison Products has an idea of where their 18 

## products are going, to which OEM's. 19 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay I think Wade was next. 20 

## MR. SMITH: Yeah I think the question that 21 

## you asked Mark is a good one. I guess when we went 22 

## into the discussions we imagined in our own mind whatASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## kind of data would be needed and appropriate you know 2 

## so that people can make informed decisions and went 3 

## about gathering that data. Of course DOE in their 4 

## framework and subsequent documents they have asked a 5 

## series of questions and some of what we -- the data 6 

## that we gathered was in direct response to those 7 

## questions but some of it was to inform our own 8 

## deliberations about what we wanted as manufacturers 9 

## of fans. 10 

## And so I'll take as an example a fan 11 

## category from the data that we gathered has very, 12 

## very low numbers of horsepower connected to the grid 13 

## and we are interested in developing, advocating and 14 

## supporting the regulation that maximizes the energy 15 

## savings while minimizing the negative impacts on our 16 

## manufacturer members. 17 

## And so putting a lot of investment into 18 

## redesign of a product that has very little connected 19 

## load is a lot of bang but very little buck so to 20 

## speak. Whereas some products have a lot of connected 21 

## load and very, very efficient alternatives are 22 

## actually available on the market and in consequenceASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## the investment required by our manufacturing members 2 

## to offer more efficient products is very low, yet the 3 

## benefit in terms of savings through regulation is 4 

## very high. 5 

## So those kinds of trade-offs are the 6 

## fodder of debate and consideration in the process. 7 

## If the -- like you I think and like most of the AHRI 8 

## members our efforts ignored fans embedded in 9 

## regulated equipment because the framework indicated 10 

## to us that that wouldn't be in play. The fact that 11 

## it is now in play suggests that that kind of effort 12 

## is needed and you know, I think your question is a 13 

## good one and you know it would be nice I think if DOE 14 

## and/or this group right would say well okay so these 15 

## are the things that we need in order to give this 16 

## full consideration. 17 

## And Laura's comment earlier is well taken 18 

## and that is that -- and yours and that is the 19 

## application conditions defined have a tremendous 20 

## influence on the amount of energy that a fan 21 

## consumes. That said if you are trying to estimate 22 

## the connected load of the market you may have thoseASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## application conditions and in our case AMCA members 2 

## provided that level of detail on an awful lot of the 3 

## data that they supplied. 4 

## But there is also a lot of data that we 5 

## gathered in which the application conditions were not 6 

## known and so we didn't know however the horsepower of 7 

## the fan motor and so one way or another if you are 8 

## making the best efforts to calculate what the 9 

## connected load is for a given unit size, you come up 10 

## with an answer and that answer is not precise and it 11 

## is not accurate but it is not significantly wrong 12 

## either. 13 

## And so this is the process by which one 14 

## informs the debate and I think what Ashley is saying 15 

## is that the folks around the table would welcome that 16 

## discussion but there hasn't been an effort in part 17 

## because the framework led us down a different path 18 

## but there hasn't been an effort to engage, to provide 19 

## that kind of information and then to inform that kind 20 

## of debate. 21 

## And I think that's where we ought to go 22 

## with this personally.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. FLY: Can I respond? 2 

## MR. BOSWELL: Ashley? I would like to 3 

## keep things in somewhat of a sequence, Steve has been 4 

## waiting. 5 

## MR. DIKEMAN: Steve Dikeman with 6 

## AccustiFLO. My products don't end up in regulated 7 

## products and so that's a little bit of a foreign 8 

## subject for me so I guess you know Gary started to 9 

## mention something that if I understand it, the 10 

## unitary gear that we are speaking of here has some 11 

## regulation on its annual cooling efficiency, your 12 

## heating efficiency, something like that, is that a 13 

## good overview of that, but the fan only part of that 14 

## is not currently regulated, is that correct in 15 

## general? 16 

## MR. FLY: Well it's embedded in -- 17 

## MR. DIKEMAN: When I do the heat rating I 18 

## have the fan energy. When I do the cooling rating I 19 

## have the fan energy but Gary's point was there's gobs 20 

## of hours where it may be a fan totally, so it shifts 21 

## fan consumption. Now do I also understand or can I 22 

## make this analogy that if I -- residential furnacesASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### were regulated and they would probably have been 2 

### regulated as a heating efficiency with fan on but now 3 

### the Department is also regulating the fan within the 4 

### furnace itself and how is -- or is there a similarity 5 

### or differences in what was done there? 6 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I respond to that? 7 

### How is the furnace rated -- it is two completely different 8 

### tests. The AFUE didn't account for the 9 

### blower energy and so the statute was changed by 10 

### Congress which directed DOE to specifically set 11 

### standards and test procedures for just the blower of 12 

### the furnace and that's what we did. 13 

### So now there are two tests for the same 14 

### product and they are regulated separately. 15 

### MR. DIKEMAN: And how were you able to 16 

### capture the fan energy because it is working in that 17 

### unique environment wouldn't that be analogous to what 18 

### we are talking here? 19 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct, we wrote a test 20 

### procedure and it is working and it is being 21 

### implemented now and yep we were able to do it. 22 

### MS. PETRILLO GROH: The key part being youASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## wrote the test procedure. Right now our products 2 

## don't test for fan efficiency, we test for energy 3 

## efficiency and there is no test procedure to collect 4 

## this information for the wide swath of products that 5 

## we have been talking about. Sorry this is Laura 6 

## Petrillo, AHRI. 7 

## MR. BOSWELL: There has been somebody 8 

## standing -- 9 

## MR. DELANEY: Yeah, Dan Delaney, Regal 10 

## Beloit. Speaking on behalf of NEMA and obviously we 11 

## are talking about this wired air concept. It's 12 

## important and we mentioned -- Mark mentioned here 13 

## before looking at the efficiency of the components 14 

## versus a system there is no perfect world when it 15 

## comes to any point when you look at that total fan 16 

## definition we had before the motor is tested at a 17 

## perfect condition so our regulation is that perfect 18 

## condition obviously doesn't consider all the 19 

## additional ratings, it's at a 1-0 point. Obviously 20 

## many of the applications don't run the hours that it 21 

## was evaluated at, many of them don't run at the loads 22 

## that it was run at.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## So many of these things that you are 2 

## talking about the motor perspective as well as let's 3 

## say a motor control, they only consider what can be 4 

## tested as part of the test definition and I would 5 

## challenge the fan group to look at that same 6 

## definition. While it may not be every single 7 

## application, it does have to be defined within its' 8 

## let's say "fan type" that you guys already have some 9 

## definition on. 10 

## But one thing I did want to provide some 11 

## clarity on that fan definition we had talked about 12 

## this with some AMCA members earlier, the motor group 13 

## has been working with the control group for many 14 

## years on this system side and what we call the 15 

## control and the motor together with upstream and 16 

## downstream components is a power drive system and 17 

## what we have come up with, unfortunately was really a 18 

## little bit too late for the pump side but DOE is 19 

## using basically the same method that both the 20 

## Europeans and the U.S. -- it's really a global 21 

## standard, it's an IEC standard and the 61800 series 22 

## but the development of that standard really gives youASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## let's say an efficiency method to provide part load 2 

## loss data for controls and motors, okay. 3 

## So whether a motor manufacturer, a drive 4 

## manufacturer or a motor driven system and 5 

## manufacturer could grab, define losses for those 6 

## components already defined as well as an 7 

## interpolation, extrapolation method you can get to 8 

## any one of those points. To everyone's point here 9 

## you have those let's say perfect conditions of losses 10 

## defined for motors and controls, each person can 11 

## still -- let's say get the test method, extrapolate 12 

## to that loss so you can determine where that 13 

## appropriate point is and utilize that. 14 

## So I would certainly like to volunteer 15 

## NEMA to work with both of the groups here to let's 16 

## say utilize that same method or that hard drive 17 

## system which I think obviously is a system that is 18 

## not just going to be here in the United States but 19 

## also globally, thank you. 20 

## MR. BOSWELL: Greg? 21 

## MR. WAGNER: I'm not sure where we are in 22 

## all of this but going back to a couple of commentsASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## before we were talking about how do you 2 

## differentiate products and how do you regulate them 3 

## and enforce action. The DOE can only really enforce 4 

## when a product is place in the marketplace and it is 5 

## found to be not compliant with the standard and so as 6 

## such it needs to find it from that distribution or 7 

## other channel and that's the way it is done for all 8 

## of those things. 9 

## There has been some concern about how do 10 

## you keep imports from having faulty parts and all of 11 

## that -- well there has been a number of circumstances 12 

## over the years where there have been air conditioning 13 

## systems and others that didn't have the appropriate 14 

## regulatory components or refrigerant or what have 15 

## you. 16 

## They get stopped because they don't comply 17 

## and that's the way those things are enforced. As far 18 

## as how do you tell on a production line where a 19 

## product goes in our case it is very simple, 20 

## every part has a part number and that's listed on the 21 

## product and that goes to a customer and those 22 

## customers have either approved regulated products orASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## they don't have approved regulated products but we 2 

## know where those things go and it's not very 3 

## difficult to track that. 4 

## We invoice customers and we have tracking 5 

## through our system of every single detail, where 6 

## every part goes -- in fact it is down to the second 7 

## on that sort of thing so it is easy to track and 8 

## record that stuff. 9 

## The other comments about the run hours and 10 

## calculating the energy consumption -- DOE has great 11 

## resources and put together the RECS data for 12 

## residential. They have considered a model that 13 

## represents the United States and it takes into 14 

## account the energy consumption on a residential 15 

## basis. 16 

## I don't know if there exists such a thing 17 

## for the commercial side. If there does, that is 18 

## probably the only way that you are going to be able 19 

## to put together some kind of methodology to calculate 20 

## what the energy consumption of any given group of 21 

## fans or set of fans, you know. For example we are 22 

## hearing in Washington area, depending on what time ofASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## year it is, the demand load on any appliance for 2 

## heating and air conditioning is going to depend upon 3 

## the heat calculation and the cooling calculation so 4 

## usually it is somewhere on the order of half or less 5 

## what the total energy required during the peak season 6 

## is, so this time of year you are going to have a light 7 

## air conditioning load, in the summer you are going to 8 

## have a peak air conditioning load and it is going to 9 

## depend upon that load profile to be able to calculate 10 

## what the total energy consumption is. 11 

## And outside of the DOE I don't know who 12 

## would have that kind of a data base to represent the 13 

## United States. 14 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay Mark? 15 

## MR. FLY: I think another factor that goes 16 

## in here because this is all going to be intertwined 17 

## how are we going to regulate fans? Are we going to 18 

## regulate fans as a peak efficiency so this fan is 19 

## compliant and therefore it is a compliant fan and 20 

## available to use or are we going to regulate fans 21 

## over an operating envelope that this fan is may be 22 

## compliant here but if I change to this point ofASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## operation it is not compliant any more. 2 

## So that is going to factor in to any kind 3 

## of analysis that we need to do so you know we may 4 

## have -- it might be prudent to work through some of 5 

## that to at least know a general direction of which 6 

## way we are going before we try to put data together 7 

## that's going to be meaningful. 8 

## Because I mean when you start looking at 9 

## part load, sometimes if you selected a fan at peak 10 

## efficiency many times you can't run that fan at part 11 

## load without it tearing itself apart. 12 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to address 14 

## that or do you want me? 15 

## MR. SMITH: Yeah so this is Wade Smith, so 16 

## these are all really good questions and it is hard to 17 

## answer the questions if you don't have a data base 18 

## which represents the actual market to test those 19 

## questions against so we -- as fan manufacturers we 20 

## tested different regulatory schemes against the data 21 

## base representing the actual market and discovered 22 

## some things work, some things don't, some things areASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### practical and pragmatically can be done and there are 2 

### other things that you would like to do that can't be done. 3 

### Some things are not deterministically 4 

### linked to energy savings for example. You just 5 

### brought one up. If you have -- if you are focused on 6 

### peak efficiency of the fan it may not teach you very 7 

### much about what the operating efficiency of the fan 8 

### will be or said another way if you change the peak 9 

### efficiency of the fan, it may or may not cause the 10 

### efficiency at the operating point to change. 11 

### It might cause it to get worse and so if 12 

### you create the data that's necessary to test some of 13 

### these ideas then you learn a lot. You can't say what 14 

### are we going to do and then I'll give you the data, 15 

### no you have to have the data to decide what you want 16 

### to do and you know without the data all opinions are 17 

### just speculation. 18 

### If you don't have the data base against 19 

### which to test ideas two people can have differing 20 

### opinions in the room and they are both valid. But 21 

### when you take those two opinions and you test them 22 

### and you come up with a result now you are arguingASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## about facts, not opinions and so to bring facts to 2 

## the table is necessary really, necessary. 3 

## MR. BOSWELL: Armin? 4 

## MR. HAUVER: Armin Hauer of emb-papst. 5 

## Some of us manufacturers here have not been regulated 6 

## in the past and so there is some fear existing 7 

## currently and maybe the Department of Energy could 8 

## briefly indicate what they want to see in 2020 on a 9 

## fan label. Do you expect to see only an indication 10 

## from the manufacturer that the fan is compliant yes 11 

## or no, or do you want to see an absolute percentage 12 

## value, an FEI value, because if you look at the motor 13 

## efficiency regulation I think this is really 14 

## pragmatic and streamlined. 15 

## The motor manufacturers have an AEDM 16 

## alternate efficiency determination method and they 17 

## can basically from a few tests they can determine or 18 

## verify this theoretical AEDM and then go to the 19 

## Department and get the registration number so I think 20 

## it is really pragmatic and if this would be possible 21 

## in the fan end as well that would be really great, or 22 

## is a lot of like absolute percentage values and thenASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## tolerance needed on the fan label in the future. 2 

## MR. BOSWELL: Ashley did you want to 3 

## respond to that? 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. So I think labeling 5 

## is on the table for discussion and what the content 6 

## of the label would look like in terms of whether we 7 

## do something like motors or whether we do something 8 

## for pumps, at least as proposed and ultimately as 9 

## proposed -- as voted on by the working group, they 10 

## actually wanted numbers. 11 

## But I think that's up to us. The 12 

## Department doesn't have a strong opinion at this 13 

## point about what the content of the label should look 14 

## like. I think what the Department is still 15 

## struggling with though is a more fundamental issue of 16 

## scope and at the point of the fan manufacturer how do 17 

## you differentiate. 18 

## So you know we -- I don't know what the 19 

## best thing to do at this point is. I don't know if 20 

## it's taking a temperature read, I don't know if it's 21 

## caucusing -- it seems like we have some specific 22 

## groups on different sides at this point and I'm notASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## sure we get further resolution without some 2 

## additional information or without some additional 3 

## ideas, or without -- I mean that's just my two cents. 4 

## I have yet to actually make a decision for 5 

## the Department. I am not ready to fully vote yet, 6 

## but I will entertain additional data and we have been 7 

## working on a list of what I think that data might 8 

## look like to help inform the decision, happy to 9 

## provide that to you today. But like I said I think 10 

## what we essentially -- AMCA essentially eluded to was 11 

## when we tried to do some of this analysis when we 12 

## tried to learn more about the market, the fan market 13 

## when we got into a lot of the details we came up with 14 

## a lot of questions, some of which are being discussed 15 

## today. 16 

## If you look at the approach that's been 17 

## published in the draft NODA it's an operating range 18 

## approach, it's not a single point approach, it's not 19 

## a foregone conclusion but that is what we have done 20 

## to date. Obviously that would be part of the 21 

## discussions here but it is a range so a lot of this 22 

## stuff I think we have come to -- we have come to aASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## conclusion that it's really hard to definitively 2 

## exclude something without some additional information 3 

## or without some information to make a good decision 4 

## or based upon that. 5 

## So Diane Jakobs wants to speak. 6 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay Diane before I open 7 

## this up to you, Bill your card has been up do you 8 

## have a comment so let's let Bill give his comment and 9 

## then we will have Diane's comment from the web. 10 

## MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. I've 11 

## been trying to comment on all of this stuff for a 12 

## while. One of the basic questions I have is how long 13 

## did it take AMCA and its members to come up with all 14 

## of the data and make all the decisions and judgments 15 

## on assumptions, to come up with I think you said 16 

## connected load which isn't really -- it's an 17 

## indication of what the maximum energy consumption 18 

## might be, not necessarily what it really is, but how 19 

## long did it take you guys to come up with all of this 20 

## stuff, that's a lot of work. Was it two weeks or two 21 

## years? 22 

## MR. SMITH: Yes. We -- this is WadeASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## Smith. We started debating these questions 4 years 2 

## ago but the decision to gather data and then analyze 3 

## different regulatory schemes against that data base 4 

## -- requests went out to the members in early December 5 

## and we had answers to I would say I think it was 40 6 

## queries against the data base done in the middle of 7 

## February so I think specific to your question I had a 8 

## data base that I was analyzing three weeks after I 9 

## sent out the request. 10 

## MR. SMILEY: Yeah but from the time you 11 

## started to figure out what you were requesting how 12 

## long did it take for that? I guess the point I am 13 

## trying to make is -- 14 

## MR. SMITH: It didn't take long. 15 

## MR. SMILEY: A three month assignment here 16 

## to define what we are going to do. It appears that 17 

## we are going to be wanting to look at data that has 18 

## not been generated yet and I wanted to get a feel for 19 

## how long it took to generate the data? And it sounds 20 

## like it could be anywhere from three years to three 21 

## weeks. While I don't believe three weeks is really 22 

## long enough for --ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. SMITH: What do you think is 2 

## reasonable Bill? 3 

## MR. SMILEY: Well I don't have any idea 4 

## because we haven't really discussed -- it's a 5 

## complicated situation. The goal is to reduce energy 6 

## consumption but the goal is not to make 7 

## super-efficient fans although the premise is that we 8 

## are going to reduce energy consumption by making 9 

## super-efficient fans right? 10 

## Well you know we keep telling you that in 11 

## applied equipment where you put a fan the 12 

## super-efficient fan doesn't always give you the least 13 

## energy consumption in overall unit. So you say okay 14 

## we need to evaluate that, analyze that, provide some 15 

## data, provide some proof. 16 

## We haven't even started thinking about 17 

## that as far as I know. You know it's -- and then the 18 

## second part of that is what number do you say we 19 

## could improve it to and how do you determine that? 20 

## Do you just say well we can improve the efficiency of 21 

## our embedded equipment by 3 percentage points and we 22 

## are done? You know nobody is going to accept thatASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### fan because we don't know. 2 

### You know it's a very complex situation 3 

### it's not as easy as you guys think it is from my 4 

### perspective. Now I haven't thought about it a whole 5 

### lot, we haven't done any work yet, it may not be 6 

### hard, I don't know. 7 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't have a test 8 

### method for it. 9 

### MR. SMILEY: Well whether we have a test 10 

### method or not, we are trying to determine what the 11 

### energy consumption of fans is for equipment that use fan 12 

### as an integral component, an important component but 13 

### not usually the major energy consumer of that product 14 

### but it does you know, so I am saying we need time to 15 

### figure out what we need to do here and then beyond 16 

### that another question is do the fan manufacturers 17 

### believe that there are no fans being made today that 18 

### are as efficient as they could be and how much more 19 

### do you think there would be and are you assuming you 20 

### are going to have to redesign every fan you make 21 

### based on what we come up with for a requirement. 22 

### MR. BOSWELL: Okay so can I put --ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I just ask a question 2 

## to that end. 3 

## MR. BOSWELL: Go ahead. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean to the HVAC 5 

## manufacturers, whether it be Bill or Aniruddh, or 6 

## Mark in the room, others -- what's the typical 7 

## wattage of your fan that you use in furnaces? Or 8 

## what's the typical wattage withdrawal of your fan 9 

## that you use in your unitary equipment? You can't 10 

## tell me that you don't know. 11 

## MR. SMILEY: 10 watts. 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Just period. You know the 13 

## range off the top of your head. I mean this isn't -- 14 

## if not can you go ask your engineer, I think that's 15 

## something that they would know tomorrow. This isn't 16 

## -- I mean we are not looking for -- we are trying to 17 

## get order of magnitude here, we are trying to get an 18 

## informed decision. That information is not hard to 19 

## come by, you design your products around it and 20 

## certainly you know what the wattage of your fans are. 21 

## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane do I get a 22 

## turn?ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. BOSWELL: Yeah you are next in line. 2 

## I keep trying to move there so Bill is first so Diane 3 

## if you want to go ahead and make your comment and 4 

## then people can either respond directly to Ashley. I 5 

## I think what would make sense. We have one tent card 6 

## up it might make sense to caucus so that people who 7 

## have been you know, talking in the group might want 8 

## to have a chance to consolidate their thinking and -- 9 

## MS. JAKOBS: Okay but I don't get to 10 

## caucus so could I just say one thing? 11 

## MR. BOSWELL: We are assuming that's going 12 

## to be after your comment Diane, I'm just trying to 13 

## get a gauge in terms of where we are going to move 14 

## after your comment okay. So would doing a caucus 15 

## make sense? Okay Diane? 16 

## MS. JAKOBS: I just wanted to respond. 17 

## There was a person I think from the public who asked 18 

## about can we use a fan manufacturer, and I work for 19 

## Rheem, fan manufacturer data and the way we design 20 

## equipment the -- I'm certainly aware of AMCA 210 and 21 

## the data that comes from AMCA 210 is not helpful as 22 

## we design our equipment.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## I know when we go, I've looked at fan 2 

## selection programs and those are not helpful. They 3 

## are -- it's different when we put it in our 4 

## equipment, the system effects, what everyone has been 5 

## discussing, we 6 

## don't look at data from AMCA 210 so that test 7 

## procedure is not helpful as these 8 

## designs -- as you are trying to get the whole system 9 

## efficiency down to meet a certain target. 10 

## As a practical sense it is just not 11 

## helpful. We don't use the selection programs, we 12 

## don't use AMCA 210 but I do know that we have Rheem 13 

## -- wow that wasn't a plug -- we have a lot of data on 14 

## how our equipment runs with the air conditioning, you 15 

## know, with a compressor running and the fan, and 16 

## that is an indication of the fan efficiency. I don't 17 

## know that the -- I don't know that it's not useful 18 

## information, that efficient stand, when you are 19 

## running the compressor, it's inefficient when you 20 

## turn off the compressor and you are just for 21 

## ventilation. So thank you for that opportunity to 22 

## talk.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### MR. BOSWELL: Thank you Diane, Wade? 2 

### MR. SMITH: Well the coverage determination was 3 

### issued June 28th, 2011 so the questions that are being asked 4 

### here have as much validity for fans embedded in 5 

### unregulated equipment as they do in regulated 6 

### equipment. There's been four years almost of time 7 

### during which manufacturers of equipment that embed 8 

### fans have had to engage on this subject. 9 

### You know and AMCA has given a lot of 10 

### encouragement to AHRI and its fan working group to do 11 

### just that. So with all due respect Bill you know 12 

### it's -- it would be great if those manufacturers 13 

### would engage in this process and imagine what they 14 

### wanted in the regulation because they know -- the 15 

### first reaction of AMCA members, of everybody when 16 

### they learn that they are going to be regulated is to 17 

### say no. 18 

### But you have to get past that and say if 19 

### we are going to be regulated, then how do we want it 20 

### to be structured to maximize the savings and minimize 21 

### the impact on us and the answer to that question has 22 

### not been forthcoming from the AHRI member companiesASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### and that's what is needed. If it takes more time it 2 

### would be far better to take the time and engage fully 3 

### then it would be to simply say we don't want to be 4 

### regulated. 5 

### MS. JAKOBS: Our fans have been regulated 6 

### from the beginning. 7 

### MR. SMITH: I will repeat what I said. 8 

### It's been four years. If the members of the AHRI do 9 

### not want to be regulated they need to advance the 10 

### arguments which would support that position. One of 11 

### those arguments certainly -- 12 

### MS. JAKOBS: I have -- 13 

### MR. SMITH: Excuse me, one of those 14 

### arguments certainly has to be what is the connected 15 

### load of the fans that we are talking about and 16 

### regulated equivalent and unregulated equivalent? 17 

### What are the issues, how do we deal with those 18 

### issues? How do we want DOE to deal with those 19 

### issues? How do we want to be regulated, what would be a 20 

### regulation that would make sense to us? 21 

### Those answers are not forthcoming and 22 

### that's what this working group is all about toASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## develop those answers and if it takes more time I for 2 

## one would want to ask for the additional time but I 3 

## wouldn't come to the table and say we don't want to 4 

## do it. 5 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay so again I see a couple 6 

## of people wanting to speak. I'm also just wanting to 7 

## get a sense of where we are. I'm hearing a lot of 8 

## responses to one another, I'm not necessarily hearing 9 

## that much that is necessarily new to what others have 10 

## said so what I am wondering is if we want to take a 11 

## temperature check on where people are, I'm not sure 12 

## exactly how people want to frame that issue. I defer 13 

## to somebody to decide how they want that question 14 

## asked, or if it would make sense to break into 15 

## sub-groups to have people have a chance to compare 16 

## their thoughts and evaluate what they have heard from 17 

## others? 18 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I would like to make a 19 

## comment on the timeline that was discussed. The 20 

## framework document was released in February of 2013 21 

## which specifically stated that DOE did not think it 22 

## had authority to regulate fans in a regulatedASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## product. 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It did not say that. 3 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: That was part of it 4 

## actually. In January -- the very beginning of 5 

## January of this year during an ex parte meeting is 6 

## where DOE backtracked on that previously published 7 

## position. So the four years that you are talking 8 

## about has been consideration for fans in general 9 

## where it looked like fans and stand-alone products 10 

## but what we have been talking about here are fans and 11 

## regulated products where the product efficiency is 12 

## tested and reported and regulated. 13 

## We are grappling with and are willing to 14 

## look at the points that you have raised for data 15 

## points of how to measure the fan efficiency of that 16 

## product during times that are not -- during equipment 17 

## operating hours that are not captured in heating or 18 

## cooling mode for five or six different types of 19 

## equipment. Thank you. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So Wade I think just a 21 

## clarification. The framework did not say we did not 22 

## have the authority but besides that I think the realASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## question is -- is exactly what we have just said, can 2 

## we get away from no and or if we are going to get to 3 

## no, we need to do so in a data driven kind of 4 

## reasonable basis. So you know, I think that's where 5 

## we are so the reality is are the OEM manufacturers 6 

## that are around the table willing to come to the 7 

## table to come up and work -- come to a workable 8 

## solution outside of the answer of no. 9 

## MR. BOSWELL: Greg Wagner? 10 

## MR. WAGNER: To get to your question 11 

## there's a lot that goes there. Back to my question 12 

## about does DOE have data on commercial industrial 13 

## fans running time, running hours the statement of 14 

## opinion that there is a lot of ventilating hours that 15 

## are caught in the heating and cooling mode where the 16 

## energy is considered. 17 

## As Diane just walked through, all the test 18 

## methodology, all of the discussion around how to 19 

## measure performance of fans was only on stand-alone 20 

## fans, not in a manner that anybody at AHRI measures 21 

## the equipment that they produced so it was a totally 22 

## different method.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## Their energy that they consume with that 2 

## fan is part of the entire systems connected load so 3 

## it is accounted for in the entire system's measured 4 

## energy use. And depending upon what mode that thing 5 

## is operating in it will have different fan energy 6 

## versus the rest of the energy. So there isn't a 7 

## simple method of saying oh I can go right back to the 8 

## database and figure out what kind of fan energy is 9 

## being used. 10 

## And you can't just go by nameplate 11 

## rating or other kinds of methods like that to come up 12 

## with an answer because those are representative of a 13 

## point of operation that may or may not be where that 14 

## thing is operated in that unit. So the question of 15 

## how to get that data is a rather complex one and it 16 

## would involve a great deal of time to measure all of 17 

## those things because it is not in the format that 18 

## this rulemaking was originally structured and has 19 

## been talked about from the day one. 20 

## Being a fan manufacturer I am used to 21 

## looking at AMCA 210 data and looking at AMCA 210 type 22 

## of testing and putting together programs working withASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## customers to help them reduce energy consumption, but 2 

## that doesn't mean that it looks at how you would 3 

## measure for this particular operation, this 4 

## particular outcome and that's why covered products 5 

## are different than just stand-alone fans. They have 6 

## a different kind of method of valuing that energy 7 

## consumption. 8 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay Meg? 9 

## MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner from NRDC. 10 

## Ashley I thought I heard you say earlier that you had 11 

## been working on a list of the type of data that you 12 

## might need and I'm wondering if whether going over 13 

## that list before caucus might be a productive thing 14 

## to do at this point. 15 

## It seems to me that there are maybe 16 

## different levels of data that you would need over the 17 

## course of the analysis from sort of the most basic -- 18 

## just getting an estimate of connected load so we 19 

## understand how big of an issue we are talking about 20 

## here and then you know more granular data of 21 

## efficiency levels and market share of those 22 

## efficiency levels, et cetera that might take longerASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## to collect but it seems like that just connected 2 

## load question is a big one from our perspective. 3 

## MR. SMILEY: Why do we keep saying 4 

## connected load, because that is not real world what's 5 

## considered, that's maximum that might -- I'm sorry 6 

## this is Bill Smiley, Trane. We always keep talking 7 

## about connected load which is the maximum energy or 8 

## power that piece of equipment might consume but that 9 

## is never where the operator or very rarely do they 10 

## operate at that point. 11 

## So if you just evaluate connected load 12 

## you are way over estimating the energy consumption. 13 

## MR. SMITH: So do something else. 14 

## MR. SMILEY: Yes do something else. You 15 

## know we have to do something else. Say consumed load 16 

## not connected load. 17 

## MR. FERSTROM: Folks this is Gary. I 18 

## would like to follow on to Meg's point. Ideally we 19 

## would like to know the energy use and there's a lot 20 

## of debate going on around how we measure that given 21 

## the different operating conditions of this equipment. 22 

## At a minimum if we knew the connected load at leastASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### we would have an idea what the maximum size of the

2 

### market was. 3 

### I don't disagree, I do agree that this

4 

### equipment doesn't operate all the time at nameplate 5 

### conditions so connected load is an over statement in a lot of

6 

### ways but we don't know anything now and if we at

7 

### least knew the connected load we might have a 8 

### marginal handle on what the size of the market and 9 

### opportunity is. 10 

### MR. BOSWELL: Laura? Joanna? 11 

### MS. MAUER: It seems like one of the

12 

### questions here is related to the definition of what a 13 

### fan is. It sounds like one of the concerns that has

14 

### been raised is the OEM is buying just an impeller and 15 

### the fan actually can't be tested because it is not a 16 

### fan until the product is assembled. 17 

### In those situations I guess depending on 18 

### whether the OEM is considered to be a manufacturer of 19 

### that fan would seem to have an impact on this 20 

### discussion and I don't know if that's a question that

21 

### we can answer or have some discussion about now. So

22 

### for that particular case of where it's not a fanASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### until it is part of a piece of equipment and 2 

### therefore never being sold as a stand-alone fan. 3 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So I don't know that I can 4 

### specifically answer that question directly at least 5 

### yet. I think what DOE is grappling with is the idea 6 

### that manufacturers are situated differently. Some 7 

### may produce impellers themselves, some may import 8 

### impellers, some may import what I am calling the fan 9 

### which is the impeller and the housing and the 10 

### associated components there and some may -- I think 11 

### what DOE struggles with is it is going to have to 12 

### provide an equitable regulation irrespective of how 13 

### that manufacturer is situated. 14 

### So what you are hearing from the 15 

### Department is while Greg I think that's absolutely 16 

### fantastic that on a second-by-second basis you can 17 

### track everything in your company, that's really helpful 18 

### and that would be helpful to the Department. I don't 19 

### think everyone is situated the same as you. 20 

### I think what we are asking you for is 21 

### something other than a self-declared method. To get 22 

### to Meg's point about what data you know DOE said youASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## were working on a list and we have kind of been 2 

## trying to work on a list over here but at a high 3 

## level this doesn't just inform the decisions -- I 4 

## think we are talking about you know a list of OEM 5 

## equipment incorporating fans. 6 

## What's regulated, what's not -- not all of 7 

## it is regulated. And the same type of fans go into 8 

## regulated and unregulated equipment. How do you tell 9 

## the difference? How do you know if a box of 10 

## impellers is coming in -- if it's ultimately going to 11 

## be regulated or unregulated? 12 

## Typical fan shaft input power at a typical 13 

## operating point range, or an operating point of the 14 

## equipment. It's close enough. It doesn't have to be 15 

## a test procedure. The test procedure we will get to, 16 

## right? We are just trying to understand impact 17 

## right? Are we talking 10, are we talking 1 18 

## horsepower, where are we? Give us a range and units 19 

## sold per year. It's really that simple and I think 20 

## that as an OEM you can go with that. You know your 21 

## business and you would know that tomorrow. 22 

## Now I get that at an aggregation level youASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## may not want to share that information tomorrow but 2 

## this isn't an unreasonable ask to help provide the 3 

## Committee with some data to help inform the decision 4 

## and I think that's you know, as a Committee it's our 5 

## due diligence to make informed decisions. 6 

## MR. BOSWELL: Greg? 7 

## MR. WAGNER: One this is getting energy 8 

## consumption is totally different. As you well know 9 

## run time affects dramatically what that energy 10 

## consumption is. As I have said earlier, DOE has done 11 

## excellent work, has great data from their REC's 12 

## analysis of the energy consumption of residences and 13 

## that's very detailed and you can break it down into 14 

## region and whatever and you can figure out by product 15 

## pretty much how much energy is being consumed. 16 

## Is there any such thing for commercial? 17 

## Because that's where it would have to start to figure 18 

## out what is the energy consumption of anything. Now 19 

## what the manufacturers don't have is the exact energy 20 

## consumption of the fan because they look at what the 21 

## energy consumption of the unit is as a whole and 22 

## that's how they put together their plans.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## I don't know how you know you get to that 2 

## measurement point but that is certainly something 3 

## that would need to be worked through to come up with 4 

## what some energy savings would be, but just looking 5 

## at nameplate ratings isn't going to get you. 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's fair but we 7 

## are trying to get a picture of the market so perhaps 8 

## maybe if you didn't like my three bullets of data, 9 

## what do you have that could help inform this decision 10 

## easily? Instead of no, what gets us to yes? 11 

## What is your alternative solution? Because that was 12 

## one of the things we talked about in day one, that if 13 

## I am going to say no to something I would have an 14 

## alternative solution so if you don't have that or you 15 

## don't think that's the right set of data, I mean to 16 

## answer specific questions, there is a commercial 17 

## building survey that EIA does similar to residential, 18 

## that's there. 19 

## MR. WAGNER: Is it broke up by equipment? 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not -- yeah, by 21 

## application. It's not as I would say granular maybe 22 

## as RECS but yes, generally speaking we use it inASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## commercial analysis and it has some information. We 2 

## had to do that type of analyses for both the 3 

## commercial HVAC rule but also -- 4 

## MR. WAGNER: (Off mic). 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah but I'm not the one 6 

## trying to make the case that I shouldn't be included. 7 

## MR. SMITH: In the data that we provided 8 

## the DOE, we have no idea about the operating hours of 9 

## the fans I mean -- we are manufacturers of fans. And 10 

## so when we sat down to take that data and extend it 11 

## to determining what the terawatt hours were of 12 

## consumption right -- we had to answer the question 13 

## what are the operating hours and at what load point? 14 

## And the best among us no answers -- so we 15 

## went to the DOE published data and pulled some of 16 

## that information and did those calculations ourselves 17 

## with their data but when we submitted the data to the 18 

## DOE we didn't submit that data, we submitted the data 19 

## that we had. 20 

## What do we have that could inform the 21 

## debate becomes the question and we have something -- 22 

## we have a lot. If you sit down and you think aboutASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## that long enough you will come up with a long list of 2 

## things that you do have which can be used to inform 3 

## the debate and that's what Ashley is suggesting, 4 

## don't tell me what you don't have, tell me what you 5 

## do have that would help to inform the debate. 6 

## MR. BOSWELL: Mike? 7 

## MR. WOLF: Ashley, would you mind being a 8 

## scribe at the board there for us. I'm just going to 9 

## throw out a thought here. If we go back -- and what 10 

## is your opening slide on your slide deck there? 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This one? 12 

## MR. WOLF: No the next one. 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This one? 14 

## MR. WOLF: No, opening the cover. So 15 

## ASRAC Fan Working Group, we have spent I don't know 16 

## how many hours this morning and I can't tell you how 17 

## many hours I have spent personally discussing what we 18 

## have been discussing here and what we are discussing 19 

## isn't even on that -- picture on that slide. 20 

## So what I would suggest -- propose, if you 21 

## wouldn't mind going to the white board here is to 22 

## maybe refocus the discussion here and bucketed inASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## three areas. First of all let's talk about 2 

## stand-alone fans, ones that are on that picture right 3 

## there. Because that apparently is kind of important, 4 

## it got put on the cover of the slide deck and 5 

## underneath that particular topic and this is going to 6 

## be you know, let's figure out what the scope is, 7 

## what's the definition for fans that are stand-alone, 8 

## let's figure out what the load is, whether it is 9 

## connect -- we don't want to use the word connected, 10 

## what was the word you used Bill? 11 

## MR. Smith: Absorbed. 12 

## MR. WOLF: Absorbed or consumed load, can 13 

## we -- no, okay so load is probably good in general 14 

## terms, what data do we have or do we need to get on 15 

## -- I guess we could leave that as a broad subject too 16 

## -- what's the metric we want to use and lastly what's 17 

## the test method we want to use? 18 

## And I would propose, so we have got that 19 

## for stand-alone fans. The next group that we might 20 

## want to talk about and have those same sub-topics 21 

## would be you know if we can't get to any consensus on 22 

## regulated fans, how about we talk about unregulatedASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## fans? Unregulated product, I'm sorry -- thank you. 2 

## And my guess is if we can get through discussion of 3 

## unregulated product, a lot of the same discussions 4 

## that you know things have happened there, which 5 

## people shouldn't be threatened by because I think 6 

## everybody in the room will say, boy we can't have 7 

## that loophole, we have got to do something with 8 

## unregulated products because those guys are getting 9 

## off free. 10 

## And if we can get through that discussion, 11 

## maybe that will help us in the final discussion which 12 

## we are having right now on regulated products. 13 

## MR. WOLF: This is Mike Wolf, Greenheck 14 

## for the record, this is a joke, you know you made 15 

## reference to the schoolyard and I said oh I'm the 16 

## biggest guy in the schoolyard. 17 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay. 18 

## MR. WOLF: So I'm sorry so my proposal 19 

## would be let's take the group's temperature on what I 20 

## just said. 21 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay, so does this make 22 

## sense to take -- I guess Ashley you were scribingASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### 1 

## that, did you have any thoughts on that process 2 

## before we take a temperature check on this? 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think that's a great 4 

## start. My ask would be by the time that we get to 5 

## number three that people use their due diligence and 6 

## collect data on the meantime while we work through 7 

## one and two. 8 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I don't have 9 

## a problem with this. My observation would just be 10 

## that I think part of the challenge is that we can't 11 

## necessarily define what's in the three buckets but 12 

## I'm fine with starting with this. 13 

## MR. BOSWELL: Duane you have been waiting 14 

## to speak? 15 

## MR. DADDIS: My point would have made 16 

## sense about thirty minutes ago. 17 

## MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer, ebm-papst. I 18 

## like Mike Wolf's approach very much however the 19 

## picture that is shown here also includes power roof 20 

## ventilators, and the power roof ventilators I would 21 

## consider are unregulated products that have fans 22 

## inside.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. WOLF: That could be argued for every 2 

## item on there and that's why I think if we can't get 3 

## past this first item, this other discussion we'll 4 

## never get there, so that was my reason for starting 5 

## here because we are going to have that same 6 

## discussion on what's an embedded fan, what's not an 7 

## embedded fan, even on the most simple product that 8 

## you have got on the screen up there. 9 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay Meg? 10 

## MS. WALTNER: Yeah so to Ashley's point, 11 

## this is Meg, you know I am comfortable with this sort 12 

## of sequence of events too but I would really like to 13 

## start collecting the data now and to leave today with 14 

## a sort of clear idea of what is going to be collected 15 

## and provided to DOE in terms of both non-regulated 16 

## and regulated products so that we have that 17 

## information when we get there. 18 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay and I guess just kind 19 

## of an observation, with respect to that I understand 20 

## the sequencing that is being proposed but one of the 21 

## debates that I have been hearing today, this is kind 22 

## of your discussion is with respect to embeddedASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## products, what data if any does exist and what would 2 

## be required to define what data might be useful so my 3 

## only concern is that people might want to think 4 

## about, I think is piggy-backed here on Meg's comment 5 

## which is we start kind of a sequential discussion to 6 

## make sure that since we have three months that people 7 

## thought about what they need in order to finish the 8 

## discussion within three months and that's just 9 

## something I think the group wants to think about. 10 

## MR. WOLF: Mike Wolfe, Greenheck. If I 11 

## could comment what I would propose maybe instead of 12 

## doing this sequentially we have enough people here, 13 

## and the more people that we have the less that we 14 

## will get done. Maybe what we do is we cone off and 15 

## we break up, you know, maybe we use sorry I keep 16 

## forgetting names here -- Mr. no, next to Greg, Gary, 17 

## sorry I knew it was something with a "G", Gary maybe 18 

## we use your picture from lunch yesterday and we start 19 

## out with that and we divide everybody you know 20 

## equally amongst those three groups and we break. 21 

## Now what time is it, it is 11 o'clock, 22 

## 11:30 I mean, this might be a good lunch topic evenASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## you know, if we break into three groups or maybe I'm 2 

## going to -- what time do you finish today? 3 or 5? 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: People are leaving 4 

## starting around 3, so probably 3. 5 

## MR. WOLF: Okay well I guess I'm wondering 6 

## if we could break from now until 1 or 1:30 into three 7 

## groups, small groups, and come back with -- okay if 8 

## we have got something we want to get out of you know, 9 

## let's say number 3, we need data. Define what that 10 

## data is, come back and say 1:30-2 o'clock and say all 11 

## right here is what we need, here's what we know but 12 

## here's what we need. 13 

## So at least and at some point today we are 14 

## given some clear assignments on what needs to be 15 

## collected or clear on what we already have, because I 16 

## agree, if we go sequentially yeah -- so just a 17 

## proposal. 18 

## MR. BOSWELL: Wade? 19 

## MR. SMITH: Yeah I might suggest that if 20 

## -- this is Wade Smith. I might suggest that even 21 

## today right -- if we could get the number of units 22 

## sold by unit size that have embedded fans and I don'tASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## know if the group is okay with this but any analysis 2 

## that we have done has always been focused on one 3 

## horsepower and larger and that eliminates a lot of 4 

## work because it takes some of the product categories 5 

## that I know people are concerned about off the table. 6 

## If you know the number of units that ship 7 

## by size you know it's not an unreasonable thing to 8 

## assign a connected load for the fan in each unit size 9 

## and it's you know, it's five minute math to figure 10 

## out, hey on this basis which is inaccurate as Mark 11 

## will point out -- on this inaccurate basis you know, 12 

## how big is this market and I unfortunately won't be 13 

## here this afternoon but it would be great if that 14 

## would -- if at least that information could come 15 

## forth so if it is discovered that this is a trivial 16 

## market segment and not worth worrying about then we 17 

## can determine that. 18 

## MR. WOLF: I guess Wade the question that 19 

## I would have there is you know, what's the definition 20 

## of size -- are you looking by horsepower, by 21 

## diameter? 22 

## MR. SMITH: Yeah I mean however the dataASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## exists. So the data exists for unitary product by 2 

## unit size described as number of tons. For air 3 

## handlers, again I am sure that there are some 4 

## breakdown by size, I don't know how it's described in 5 

## the AHRI statistics but however it is is what it is. 6 

## MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf, Greenheck. I'm 7 

## sorry but I'm anticipating that same discussion is 8 

## going to come on the first one -- stand-alone fans 9 

## and if you are leaving at noon I don't think any of 10 

## the rest of us understand that spreadsheet well 11 

## enough to extract it without your help. 12 

## MR. SMITH: Well I'll just say for the 13 

## stand-alone fans we provided the data that DOE has, I 14 

## don't think there's any mystery and to the extent 15 

## that it is in the public domain we would be happy to 16 

## reveal it. 17 

## MR. BOSWELL: Mark? 18 

## MR. FLY: Many of the products in category 19 

## 3 have multiple fans in there. Multiple fan types, 20 

## so let's just take a packaged piece of equipment for 21 

## example. At the minimum it is going to have supply 22 

## fans, it is going to have condenser fans. SupplyASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## fans, as Gary has pointed out will run in event mode. 2 

## Condenser fans will never run in event mode so you 3 

## know the condenser fans are tied to the refrigeration 4 

## system, will always be measured in the refrigeration 5 

## efficiency. 6 

## Yes there is part of the supply fan part. 7 

## You add energy recovery, you could add two more fans 8 

## in there so there's -- you know it's -- like you said 9 

## it's a very, very complex process you know, Ashley, 10 

## you know my 510 unit I offer half horsepower to 2 11 

## horsepower fans. Now, do I average the two? Say 12 

## it's a horse and a half or two? It's not data we -- 13 

## it's data that I can dig out from my company. It is 14 

## certainly not data that I report to AHRI. 15 

## AHRI has fairly good data for at least 16 

## unitary equipment on 10 inch and number of units in 17 

## the market and I don't really know what we have got 18 

## on air handlers and many of the other product classes 19 

## so yes I think maybe one of the first steps is to 20 

## start listing equipment that have fans in them. It's 21 

## many but at least that gives us a scope of the 22 

## problem.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. SMITH: Mark I think it would be a 2 

## much easier or diminished task if you focused on one 3 

## horsepower and up only because that would eliminate 4 

## the condenser fans that you are talking about for the 5 

## most part. Not to say that there aren't some 6 

## condenser fans that are drawing more than one 7 

## horsepower but it is not as prevalent. 8 

## And I mean you know, I think the group is 9 

## looking for the best data that is available and 10 

## whatever it is, it is. You know, it's better than no 11 

## data right which is what we have got now. 12 

## MR. FLY: Well is DOE okay with 13 

## eliminating everything under one horsepower? 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I would say DOE is as a 15 

## temperature check much more open to that than 16 

## regulated equipment as a whole, let's put it that 17 

## way, so you could strike a deal with that. 18 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay how about -- 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Like I said you are asking 20 

## -- show me why, show me data, what does that mean? 21 

## What does one horsepower mean, what does two 22 

## horsepower get you, that's what I asked from theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## outset. Make your case. Make your case to this 2 

## Committee as to why, not just no. 3 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay. 4 

## MR. SMITH: And I should say on 5 

## stand-alone fans where we gather the data, we gather 6 

## the data down to 1/8th horsepower and made a case 7 

## that below one, as I described earlier, the impact 8 

## and our member companies in terms of their investment 9 

## was very, very great. 85% of the fans that are in 10 

## our data base are below one horsepower, but only 20% 11 

## of the connected load. 12 

## So 85 we are going to invest in redesigns, 13 

## that's a lot of product to redesign but the benefit 14 

## is dramatically diminished so you have got an 80/20 15 

## rule if you are working in real life and so by 16 

## focusing on the fans that are one horsepower and 17 

## greater it just -- you get more bang for the buck. 18 

## Somebody asked, Laura asked yesterday what 19 

## was one horsepower because that's -- we drew the line 20 

## at one horsepower and above, not above one horsepower 21 

## right? And so the AMCA members debated that question 22 

## for a long time. There's a -- it turns out there isASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## a lot of connective load in the one horsepower group 2 

## and in the debate we felt that if we can come to 3 

## reasonable efficiency levels as the regulatory 4 

## requirement then we would go down to and include one 5 

## horsepower, but it was -- I should say something here 6 

## that in our consensus with the advocates that we put 7 

## in the public domain with the noted response you 8 

## know, we didn't document any consensus and actually 9 

## there is not a consensus about what the regulatory 10 

## requirement ought to be. 11 

## AMCA made a proposal, it was not accepted 12 

## so you know if the regulatory requirement causes us 13 

## to invest a lot more time, energy, money, capital in 14 

## redesigns than we would anticipate we might come back 15 

## and argue for something above one horsepower because 16 

## we are most sensitive to the impact to our small 17 

## business member companies and we don't want to put 18 

## them out of business. 19 

## And so, you know, the debate inside is 20 

## Carnes Company, you know are you okay with this? And 21 

## they express themselves and from their expression of 22 

## concern in what was acceptable and unacceptable weASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## derived our bargaining authority and that's what we 2 

## are here to exercise. 3 

## So all of these things are malleable 4 

## right? It could go up, it could go down, the 5 

## standard could go up or it could go down, who knows. 6 

## But it's hard to evaluate the impact, the savings, 7 

## it's not possible to make informed decisions for the 8 

## advocates or for the manufacturers if you don't have 9 

## the raw fodder to work with and just so at a high 10 

## level if you just had unit counts, shipped and could 11 

## assign what you think is a representative horsepower 12 

## for the fan, that's going to tell you how big the 13 

## connected load is and after you get DOE's operating 14 

## hours, you know you might actually calculate what the 15 

## energy cost is. 16 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay so Greg? 17 

## MR. WAGNER: This is Greg Wagner again, 18 

## one of the things that is not on that list and I 19 

## don't know where you would put that is other fans for 20 

## example, construction equipment, vacuum cleaners, 21 

## material handling, aerospace, there's a wide range of 22 

## fans that go into other products and I don't see anyASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## representation here at these meetings or a discussion 2 

## about how that fits into this framework because they 3 

## certainly would come under the broad definition that 4 

## has been put forth and I have just listed some of the 5 

## ones that are out there. 6 

## MR. BOSWELL: Gary? 7 

## MR. FERSTROM: I have a question for Wade. 8 

## If I understood you right you made the point that 9 

## small fans while large in number represent a smaller 10 

## part of the connected load, is that correct? 11 

## MR. SMITH: It -- for stand-alone fans, 12 

## that's definitely the case yes. 13 

## MR. FERSTROM: Okay so I was thinking 14 

## about the unitary equipment and the hours of 15 

## operation and might not we speculate that small fans 16 

## could potentially have a lot higher hours of 17 

## operation than the larger ones? 18 

## MR. SMITH: No. 19 

## MR. FERSTROM: Okay thank you. 20 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I have a question for 21 

## Wade as well on the database of fans, this is Laura 22 

## Petrillo from AHRI -- you said 85% of the fans in theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## database was below 1 horsepower? 2 

## MR. SMITH: That's correct. 3 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: And approximately 12% 4 

## of the fans were one horsepower? 5 

## MR. SMITH: No I think it's approximately 6 

## 12% of the connected load is at one horsepower. 7 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Thank you. 8 

## MR. BOSWELL: So I want to go back to when 9 

## Mike was speaking he actually made a proposal and 10 

## asked that we took a temperature check on that which 11 

## would be to self-divide into three groups, take a two 12 

## hour lunch break, reconvene after that during that 13 

## two hour break those three groups could meet and 14 

## report back on kind of potential next steps under 15 

## these three headings. So is that still what people 16 

## would think of as a good proposal after the 17 

## subsequent discussion that has taken place? 18 

## MR. WAGNER: (Off mic). 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think the 20 

## Department has an opinion about -- has voiced an 21 

## opinion yet, we usually have opinions but -- at least 22 

## me -- so I have a question just for Mike and maybeASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### 1 

## this is my naive you know, this will show my lack of 2 

## expertise in the fan industry but with number one as 3 

## soon as you get the scope and definitions, aren't we 4 

## having the same conversation? 5 

## MR. WOLF: Yes we are but it should be 6 

## much simpler, simpler discussion and my hope is that 7 

## if we can get through the simple discussion that 8 

## might help us with the more complex discussions we 9 

## are having here. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So my suggestion would be 11 

## to do break outs, you know, at least around number 12 

## one if you guys want to come back with a proposal of 13 

## what that scope -- the scope and definitions look 14 

## like. We have some slides that might help you with 15 

## that. 16 

## But I think the group needs to have that 17 

## discussion before we put too much time into two and 18 

## three. Definitely I think the data should -- people 19 

## should start collecting data but I'm not so sure the 20 

## scope and definitions isn't going to turn into the 21 

## same discussion we are having now because what DOE 22 

## found at least when it looked at the differentASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## categories of fans was if you are looking at the 2 

## category of just the fan, you know this fan -- all 3 

## three of those and that's what we are struggling 4 

## with. 5 

## MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf again, I'm fine with 6 

## that I just threw it out there. 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: No I think that's great. 8 

## MR. BOSWELL: Wade? 9 

## MR. SMITH: So I'll toss out a soft ball 10 

## or as they said a fast ball right across the middle 11 

## of the plate. I think this working group should not 12 

## change the fan definition but should change the scope 13 

## of the -- should propose the scope of the regulation 14 

## not include well should include only fans driven by 15 

## an electric motor, rather than fans driven by some 16 

## other means which takes a lot of -- I'll call it the 17 

## oddball stuff, you know like a propeller fan in the 18 

## front end of my car is a fan but it is not connected 19 

## to the grid, so maybe the better thing to say is that 20 

## we should only be dealing here in this regulation 21 

## with grid connected fans. 22 

## MR. FERSTROM: So we touched -- this isASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## Gary, we touched on this issue yesterday a little bit 2 

## and I encouraged the group to consider utility 3 

## connected fans which would be those driven by 4 

## utilities supplied grid electricity or pipeline gas. 5 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay I guess a question I 6 

## have for Ashley from your comments, are those things 7 

## that you think you would like to go over from the 8 

## slides that DOE prepared that you started to before 9 

## -- no? So Meg you had a comment? 10 

## MS. WALTNER: Yeah I just did in response 11 

## to Wade's point you know that saying the think I want 12 

## to think about there is how do we differentiate those 13 

## fans when you, you know, when Ashley goes to enforce 14 

## the regulation is there a way to tell the difference 15 

## just by picking the fan up off the shelf? 16 

## MR. SMITH: Yes. 17 

## MS. WALTNER: Okay so that's something 18 

## that we would need to work through. 19 

## MR. BOSWELL: Gary did you have another 20 

## comment? So I know that Greg has an issue about 21 

## this list, Ashley's raised the point about whether or 22 

## not one doesn't the others -- I think there's still aASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## question about or some value is being expressed for 2 

## people having a two hour period to have lunch, caucus 3 

## amongst themselves and reconvene on these issues, so 4 

## why don't we take -- yes Dan? 5 

## MR. HARTLEIN: I think, I mean did we 6 

## actually take a temperature on that because I'm not 7 

## sure -- 8 

## MR. BOSWELL: That's what I was about to 9 

## say. 10 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Okay because for me we are 11 

## here and we are not together, we can caucus tonight, 12 

## tomorrow, so that would be my opinion is it -- that 13 

## extended hour for lunch, you know, we are going to 14 

## have to deal with these issues as a group at some 15 

## point. 16 

## MR. BOSWELL: Armin? 17 

## MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer. I have a 18 

## procedural question. When did we decide that we stop 19 

## the meeting at 3 o'clock? We had talked about 20 

## earlier about minimizing costs and impact on 21 

## manufacturers, some of us have made arrangements to 22 

## be here until 5 o'clock today and I would have no useASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## my time until my flight leaves tonight at 11 P.M. 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So we can definitely go 3 

## until 5, I'm going to be here too. It's -- I know 4 

## that there is a couple of people that mentioned to me 5 

## that they are leaving before 5 but we can keep going. 6 

## That's a non-issue. I don't think we are going to be 7 

## voting on anything this afternoon. In case anybody 8 

## was worried about that, just to address it up front. 9 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay Meg? 10 

## MS. WALTNER: Another procedural question 11 

## do we need a quorum to proceed with the meeting at 12 

## all after people leave and so many we should get a 13 

## clear number of who is leaving. 14 

## MR. BOSWELL: We need a quorum to meet. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: (Off mic). 16 

## MR. BOSWELL: I was going to say if we 17 

## have less than a quorum -- if we have less than a 18 

## quorum and the group decided to meet it could be a 19 

## subgroup of the Committee but I think from the list 20 

## that I have seen of people that have indicated to us 21 

## that they are leaving at various times this 22 

## afternoon, I think that we will probably still have aASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## quorum. 2 

## Those that haven't specified anything will 3 

## be here until 5. 4 

## MR. SMITH: This is Wade, do I understand 5 

## from the sort of by-laws that we established 6 

## yesterday that a subgroup can be no more than 15 7 

## people? 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We would have two. Good 9 

## thing we have three categories up there. Can I make 10 

## an ask? Let's do this, let's break for lunch. Let's 11 

## reconvene though in about an hour, maybe an hour and 12 

## fifteen if you want more time, but I'm happy to 13 

## tackle number one first, let's talk about number one, 14 

## let's talk about scope, let's talk about what those 15 

## definitions might look like that are definitely in 16 

## and see where it goes. Is that okay with everyone? 17 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay. 18 

## MR. ROY: Aniruddh Roy with Goodman. I 19 

## would propose that we abstain from voting on any of 20 

## those until all three are addressed though because 21 

## there could be implications on category 3 based on 22 

## the decisions that are made in category 1.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: Completely, honestly I 2 

## don't think anyone is going to be in a position to 3 

## vote today anyway. 4 

## MR. ROY: Thanks. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean I think that's just 6 

## the reality of where we are going to be. 7 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay, any objection to 8 

## taking a break at this point and reconvening in -- 9 

## it's 11:50 why don't we reconvene at 1 o'clock. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: All right so we want to 11 

## start back up from lunch. All right. 12 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay so as we get started, 13 

## Wade Smith has left and his alternate has joined us 14 

## at the table, so I am just going to ask him for the 15 

## record to introduce himself so that we have that. 16 

## MR. CATANIA: Yes thank you very much. 17 

## This is Tom Catania, I'm a consultant to AMCA. I 18 

## probably will sort of just expand a little bit on my 19 

## introductory background from when I was in the 20 

## audience just for purposes that people don't know me. 21 

## I am a retired vice-president of government relations 22 

## for the Whirlpool Corporation so I participated inASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## many, many years of standards -- appliance standards 2 

## negotiations so this is not entirely foreign 3 

## territory to me. 4 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay thank you. I don't 5 

## think there is any other changes around the table. 6 

## So I guess I would turn this to you Ashley to get us 7 

## started. 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think one of the 9 

## things that we -- we talked about doing before we 10 

## left is to let's talk about a subset. Let's try to 11 

## start with the smallest and see if we can kind of 12 

## build from there in terms of getting agreement for 13 

## some of the fans. So we are going to go to specifics 14 

## and we are going to talk about what we call the 15 

## stand-alone category and I am going to get some help 16 

## from an expert in the industry and we are going to go 17 

## from there. 18 

## MR. WOLF: You say I'm an expert? 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: That's you. Do you want 20 

## to start with a specific one? 21 

## MR. WOLF: Go to your next slide I think 22 

## that the one where you have ducted?ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: This one? 2 

## MR. WOLF: Yeah. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 4 

## MR. WOLF: So if I remember -- so this is 5 

## Mike Wolf, Greenheck. I think this came right out of 6 

## the NODA did it not? 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It did. 8 

## MR. WOLF: So these are the definitions 9 

## that we are using as a baseline for discussion so I 10 

## think what I propose is that we start here and then 11 

## you know if we don't like it propose changes or 12 

## improvements, okay? 13 

## So looking at this list, I think the 14 

## simplest one is probably going to be housed 15 

## centrifugal backward bladed fan. I am hoping that we 16 

## can maybe get some consensus around that. So if we 17 

## go to the you know the flip chart there and we start 18 

## with the scope and definition, Ashley you have got 19 

## some other slides that I kind of peeked -- if we talk 20 

## about a housed centrifugal backward bladed fan, 21 

## what's the scope and definition for that product, do 22 

## you have anything else we can reference, somebody hadASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## here a couple of slides. 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know if we have a 3 

## specific definition for just that one. We have a 4 

## definition for centrifugal fans. 5 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so. 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So if we want to make it 7 

## more specific we could you know, we could go there or 8 

## are all centrifugal fans ultimately? 9 

## MR. WOLF: And that's a good question so 10 

## here's what I would like to do or give some 11 

## consideration to is trying to develop some sort of a 12 

## process where we can go through each of these and say 13 

## all right what is it, what things do we know, what do 14 

## we not know? So if we start with the definition and 15 

## I just cut and pasted the definition you had there so 16 

## that's a centrifugal fan and I don't know if we need 17 

## to maybe add a category over here then that might 18 

## reference back to this to say well all right which 19 

## one is it, okay. 20 

## So I think it would be pretty easy -- oh 21 

## I'm sorry -- okay. So again guys, I'm just throwing 22 

## this out there as a way to work out a way to thisASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## problem. You know I think we could say that a 2 

## centrifugal fan, housed centrifugal backward bladed 3 

## fan would fall under that definition. Can we take a 4 

## temperature on that? Steve? 5 

## MR. DIKEMAN: How are you trying to 6 

## approach this, Steve Kikeman. How are you trying to 7 

## approach this Mike because if you get the last 8 

## sentence with or without a housing now we have jumped 9 

## from centrifugal in total into the four subsets that 10 

## you have got on the other page. So do we have one 11 

## definition for each of the fans if this happened to 12 

## be a backward curve that would say backward curve it 13 

## has a housing? 14 

## MR. WOLF: I guess I could pull a line out 15 

## of Ashley's repertoire, what do you want? 16 

## MR. DIKEMAN: No, I'm trying to anticipate 17 

## where you are headed. Centrifugal fan covers things 18 

## in both columns three in one column, one in the 19 

## other, the housing captures all of that so at what 20 

## point do you -- define what -- 21 

## MR. WOLF: Right. 22 

## MS. ASHLEY: So you just mean why theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## housing is not necessary? 2 

## MR. DIKEMAN: No, why it is. 3 

## MR. WOLF: Well I think let's not jump to 4 

## conclusions, let's work through the process. So the 5 

## answer to your question I would propose, well say the 6 

## question again? 7 

## MR. DIKEMAN: Your question was about this 8 

## definition versus what is -- four categories we just 9 

## talked about in two columns. 10 

## MR. WOLF: So what I would suggest Steve 11 

## is we that we take this definition of a centrifugal 12 

## fan and we plug in which of those categories fits 13 

## into this definition that would be my proposal. 14 

## MR. DIKEMAN: Okay, okay, no, that's what 15 

## I was trying to get with you on. So there are there 16 

## that would fall into that particular -- 17 

## MR. WOLF: Into this. 18 

## MR. DIKEMAN: That particular -- right am 19 

## I with you Mike? 20 

## MR. WOLF: Yes. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: The three on the -- 22 

## (indicating slides)ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. DIKEMAN: Just those three. 2 

## MR. WOLF: Well you have got a centrifugal 3 

## inline too that's in there. 4 

## MR. DIKEMAN: You would, yep. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well how about we go back 6 

## and look for a second at these, not that one. 7 

## MR. WOLF: So I would say that there is 8 

## four on that left-hand side. 9 

## MR. DIKEMAN: My bad. 10 

## MR. WOLF: Yep, we will let it go this 11 

## time. 12 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Yeah, Dan Hartlein, Twin 13 

## City Fan. The question I have I think you are seeing 14 

## with or without a housing on the next slide right? 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 16 

## MR. HARTLEIN: But everything you have 17 

## written here says housed. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: There is one, there's a 19 

## right side. 20 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so what I would propose 21 

## there is we create maybe two columns or two headings 22 

## here under examples or categories, whatever we wantASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## to call it, we say okay what are the ducted examples 2 

## or categories and what are the un-ducted, that way we 3 

## get everything pigeon-holed right away here because I 4 

## have identified a number of other holes with this but 5 

## I don't want to go there right away, I would like to 6 

## get some consensus and get us down the path a little 7 

## further before I start shooting holes in my own plan 8 

## here. 9 

## So again to take a temperature does that 10 

## seem reasonable to everybody? 11 

## MR. DIKEMAN: (Off mic) We have got the 12 

## housing, with or without housing, so -- 13 

## MR. WOLF: That was Steve Dikeman. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay so let's talk about 15 

## the examples. Does everyone agree with the examples? 16 

## MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. I 17 

## don't think -- I think the point that he is making is 18 

## not inclusive because it says with or without a 19 

## housing so you have to have the unhoused centrifugal 20 

## fans in that also. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And -- 22 

## MR. FLY: If you are going to go directlyASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### 1 

## by the definition that's up there on centrifugal fan 2 

## without altering. 3 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so Mike Wolf, would you 4 

## rather change the definition or -- 5 

## MR. FLY: I would rather change the 6 

## definition because I think we are going to run into 7 

## characteristics that need to be separated. 8 

## MR. WOLF: So what is everybody's 9 

## temperature on that, do we want to start with 10 

## changing the definition here? Okay I am going to 11 

## take general head nods as yes. So somebody make a 12 

## proposal on what should or should not be in that 13 

## definition. 14 

## MR. FLY: I would change the last line to 15 

## say the impeller may -- I shouldn't say shall have a 16 

## housing component, or one or two inlets with a 17 

## housing component I think is what we need to say. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead you can just 19 

## talk, it's okay, just identify yourself. 20 

## MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. So we 21 

## are going to have two definitions for centrifugal 22 

## fans, one unhoused and one housed is that where weASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## are headed? I have no preference either way I was 2 

## just asking a question. Now I do have another 3 

## comment, the air doesn't necessarily exit 4 

## perpendicular to the shaft but it is in that general 5 

## direction so I mean how nit-picky do we need to be? 6 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, I would 7 

## change the word to predominantly perpendicular I 8 

## know, I will spell it for her, thank you. 9 

## MR. BOSWELL: And Mark? 10 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, the New York 11 

## Blower Company. Are we mixing up definitions and fan 12 

## categories? Because you can define a centrifugal fan 13 

## like you have it but that doesn't matter, that's 14 

## inclusive of multiple fan categories as communicated 15 

## on the slides so you are going to add a lot of 16 

## complexity up high. 17 

## MR. WOLF: I agree Mark, this is Mike Wolf 18 

## and that's a great question because I'm thinking 19 

## through the process here, maybe it would behoove us 20 

## to start with the categories and get agreement on the 21 

## categories first rather than the definition of at 22 

## some point we will need a definition for the categoryASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## right? 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 3 

## MR. WOLF: And right now the definitions 4 

## don't align to the categories so maybe we start with 5 

## the categories and define them. 6 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New York 7 

## Blower. That would be the big buckets I think and if 8 

## we could agree on the buckets then we might be able 9 

## to -- 10 

## MR. WOLF: All right so Ashley let's go 11 

## back. 12 

## MR. BUBLITZ: And put detail into what we 13 

## think belongs in the buckets. 14 

## MR. WOLF: So we are going -- 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Going back to this? 16 

## MR. WOLF: Going back to that we are going 17 

## to talk about a housed centrifugal backward bladed 18 

## fan and so now we need a definition for that. 19 

## MS. WALTNER: Yeah this is Meg Waltner, so 20 

## AMCA and the advocates have gone back and forth on 21 

## definitions a lot over the past two years and have 22 

## different draft definitions I would say, I think forASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### all of those categories. I don't know if that would 2 

### be a good place to start. 3 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Where are they? 4 

### MS. WALTNER: Some of them are in line 5 

### with the broader definitions proposed by DOE and some 6 

### are categories that DOE didn't propose definitions 7 

### for. 8 

### MS. IYAMA: This is Sanaee. Most of the 9 

### definitions that are on that slide for the fan 10 

### categories were drafted based on the inputs from the 11 

### stakeholders, including what was present in the 12 

### submissions from AMCA. 13 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay I think what you are 14 

### hearing is that if you do have definitions specific 15 

### to each of these categories we don't have them or at 16 

### least in that level of detail what you are seeing. 17 

### MS. IYAMA: So I think on these slides 18 

### there is the two categorizations schemes, there's the 19 

### one used in the NODA and then there's the one 20 

### presenting the list of categories that AMCA was using when 21 

### defining what's a ducted or an un-ducted fan. 22 

### MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz here, is theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## difference between the NODA and this list just the 2 

## NODA kind of smashed them together? 3 

## MS. IYAMA: They can be directly mapped so 4 

## we could use either -- and another way to do what you 5 

## were getting at was I think, and that's sort of the 6 

## background that we had in mind when we used those 7 

## definitions that you have on the slides, is that 8 

## instead of defining what's an actual housed, actual 9 

## unhoused centrifugal house, centrifugal unhoused, we 10 

## just defined axial fan, centrifugal fan and then what 11 

## do we mean by housing and then you can sort of 12 

## combine in a more modular way instead of defining 13 

## each sub-category of fan. 14 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, I'm sorry I 15 

## forgot your name, did you have a comment on further 16 

## clarifying Sanaee's comment on what the categories 17 

## were? Okay. 18 

## MR. JASINSKI: No, I don't have them in 19 

## front of me, that's all. 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So if we go back to this 21 

## slide -- 22 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New YorkASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## Blower. I'm just wondering if you could take a 2 

## temperature check on if we all looked at that list, 3 

## do we think there's big holes, do we think if these 4 

## buckets were set in front of us could I take most of 5 

## our -- I think we are focusing on stand-alone right, 6 

## most stand-alone stuff and would it fit in a bucket 7 

## for the most part? 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure so this is how we did 9 

## it for the purposes of the NODA and each of them 10 

## mapped to how you guys did it, ducted and non-ducted. 11 

## I don't know that we necessarily care although this 12 

## is going to be harder for us to ultimately the 13 

## broader categories are easier for us than incumbent 14 

## from a regulatory standpoint. 15 

## MR. WOLF: So Mike Wolf, Greenheck. Mark 16 

## let me ask this, what you just said there is you 17 

## brought up I think you said something about embedded 18 

## or not embedded. 19 

## MR. BUBLITZ: No. 20 

## MR. WOLF: What did you just -- that's 21 

## what I heard so we want to take a temperature check 22 

## on the general categories.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New York 2 

## Blower. Whether we use the DOE list or this list I 3 

## was just wondering if we could take a temperature 4 

## check on do we think that 5 

## all of our products, we are thinking of all of 6 

## the things that are stand-alone, is this an 7 

## acceptable list of buckets and you could -- whether 8 

## we want to parse the different types of axial fans or 9 

## could we just take the DOE list as a starting point 10 

## and say we think this kind of encompasses all of the 11 

## different fan categories. 12 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so the temperature that 13 

## you want to take is does this list encompass what we 14 

## feel would be categorized as stand-alone fans? 15 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New York 16 

## Blower. Yes. 17 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so what's the temperature, 18 

## Tom do you have something? 19 

## MR. CATANIA: Yeah, yeah before you kind 20 

## of vote on this or take the temperature, Tom Catania 21 

## AMCA. I am a little concerned that because we have 22 

## so much data I'm kind of picking up on Meg's earlierASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### 1 

## comment that we have so much data and so much work 2 

## already memorialized and sort of framework response 3 

## that then evolved into a second NODA that if we 4 

## create a new taxonomy that is inconsistent or makes 5 

## it harder for us to map back to our data, we haven't 6 

## advanced the ball and I think that when we look at 7 

## this list of breakdowns that we were working on with 8 

## the sequence that we do have to have ultimately in a 9 

## term agreement, we have to get through scope, load, 10 

## data, metric and all of these items that you have to 11 

## have the end one in mind as you are creating the 12 

## categories. 13 

## So I think we just have to be really 14 

## careful that this exercise is advancing the ball and 15 

## not complicating. 16 

## MR. BOSWELL: Dan? 17 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Yeah Dan Hartlein, Twin 18 

## City Fan. I want to 100% agree with that. We have 19 

## spent a lot of time on these categories and I think 20 

## they are pretty solid so it almost feels like the 21 

## question is in general any concerns? Let's move on. 22 

## I would add a second thought to that and I think theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## only place where we may have departed as an industry 2 

## from the NODA was the concept of ducted and 3 

## non-ducted and the difference for that is quite 4 

## simple and that's we believe that static efficiency 5 

## and static pressure is the right way to measure the 6 

## non-ducted equipment where total is the right way to 7 

## measure the ducted. 8 

## If it weren't for that differentiating 9 

## effect I don't think there would be a need to have 10 

## that split so to me we should look at these 11 

## categories instead of trying to reinvent them we 12 

## should say is everybody cool with these, let's go on 13 

## to the next subject because I think we can be. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. 15 

## MS. WOLF: So to maybe put words in Mark's 16 

## mouth I think that is what we are trying to do is to 17 

## basically ask can we agree on this categorization of 18 

## fans for stand-alone? 19 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: This is Laura Petrillo 20 

## Groh from AHRI. I'm not objecting I'm just wanting 21 

## to point out that there were several people, several 22 

## people here who were not in the room for a lot ofASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## those discussions and maybe we would benefit from 2 

## hearing you know what you came up with and why. 3 

## Maybe this is common, you know across the industry, I 4 

## just want to make sure we are all on the same page 5 

## before we vote and go forward or take a temperature 6 

## and go forward, it would be helpful for me. 7 

## MR. WOLF: This is Mike Wolf, Greenheck. 8 

## I mean I was going to qualify when Dan said we I 9 

## think the "we" we are referring to is the AMCA group 10 

## and the energy advocates who have been part of that 11 

## discussion, is that a fair statement of who "we" is? 12 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Yeah. 13 

## MR. COTANIA: Well I think it's really 14 

## important to sort of get on the record that in the 15 

## AMCA group that participated there are many AHRI 16 

## members and divisions of AHRI members who are part of 17 

## that process so I don't know the extent to which this 18 

## institutional memory of the AHRI participants who 19 

## participate through subsidiary -- fan subsidiaries 20 

## illuminate your understanding but -- 21 

## MR. WOLF: In fairness to Laura though I 22 

## think it would be -- we can take a few minutes and goASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## through that. 2 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Those discussions were 3 

## closed and no information of it was shared. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It was on the docket. 5 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Thank you. 6 

## MR. WOLF: So would -- I'm not sure where 7 

## to take that, what -- is there anything specific 8 

## Laura that you want to ask in bringing us -- 9 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, I'm asking if 10 

## Mark Bublitz would be comfortable covering the 11 

## categories and what we did, he is the Chair of the 12 

## Committee that did a lot of that work. 13 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz -- 14 

## MR. WOLF: He wasn't when it was done but 15 

## -- 16 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Yeah, yeah, thank you for 17 

## pointing that out Mike. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Welcome to your new 19 

## position. 20 

## MR. BUBLITZ: I'm stepping up. So we 21 

## started if you scan the list you will see that wheel 22 

## type got us started so there is backward, forward andASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## radial mixed flow and axial. And as I scan the list 2 

## I can't think at the moment of another wheel type 3 

## that got us started and then we said well sometimes 4 

## the wheel and the housing together make a specific 5 

## combination and that got us into the three houses, 6 

## Dan do you have a comment? 7 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Yeah I was just going to 8 

## add for the benefit of everybody in the room that 9 

## functionally you will find that axial fans perform 10 

## better in a high specific speed meaning lots of flow, 11 

## minimal pressure generation relative to the 12 

## centrifugal fan which tends to perform better at a 13 

## lower specific speed which is a higher pressure 14 

## relative to that flow. 15 

## So the specific speed calculations are the 16 

## basis for those kind of product categories and there 17 

## is an increasing performance as you move across that 18 

## specific speed range where suddenly the axial fan 19 

## becomes the dominant choice from an energy 20 

## perspective and then there's also the basis of 21 

## functionality, so there's some functionality in that 22 

## as well when turning the corner and getting theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## performance of an axial fan or a centrifugal fan, 2 

## excuse me -- may not be afforded in the footprint of 3 

## the application so in that border range there's 4 

## sometimes on both ends there's a clear choice from an 5 

## efficiency perspective. 6 

## In the middle it starts to kind of become 7 

## almost a functional choice. 8 

## Okay, so I just wanted to share that. 9 

## MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf, Dan maybe for 10 

## clarification I should know this but I don't, does 11 

## that same logic apply to forward curved? Because 12 

## that's a higher pressure fan? 13 

## MR. HARTLEIN: I'm not sure, is Greg here? 14 

## Can you answer that I'm not sure. 15 

## MR. WAGNER: Greg Wagner, Morrison. In 16 

## the realm of looking at fans from a size standpoint 17 

## it's a higher pressure capability in terms of total 18 

## pressure. 19 

## MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. It's 20 

## kind of in between the centrifugal BI and radial and 21 

## the axial. If you look at it on a specific speed 22 

## relationship.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. WOLF: So this is Mike Wolf again, the 2 

## reason that I bring that up is that I think there's 3 

## going to be a lot of discussion around that topic 4 

## later. Forward curves, I think maybe some of you 5 

## know the Europeans just came out with their second 6 

## pass of regulation and I can visualize the graph in 7 

## my head but I don't know what specifically is on it 8 

## but they have a break where they have an efficient 9 

## requirement for forward curve fans I think up to a 10 

## certain pressure and once it gets to that certain 11 

## pressure they and Geoff maybe you can help me -- they 12 

## really raised the requirement because that fan is no 13 

## longer really the best you know, backward incline 14 

## becomes a better solution than a forward curved and 15 

## again I don't know all the technicalities of it but 16 

## does that sound right to you Geoff? 17 

## MR. SHEARD: Geoff Sheard, AGS Consulting. 18 

## My understanding is talking to the policy officer 19 

## that he would like to see them regulated off the 20 

## market. 21 

## MR. WOLF: Can you be a little more clear? 22 

## MR. SHEARD: I think he feels there areASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## more efficient solutions -- 2 

## MR. WOLF: I'm just joking. 3 

## MR. SHEARD: Oh okay, American humor, not 4 

## like English. 5 

## MR. BOSWELL: Armin? 6 

## MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer, ubm-papst. On 7 

## the present ballot regulation up until 2000 that took 8 

## effect in January, 2015 there was just a bend in 9 

## efficiency curve requirement. In 2017 there have 10 

## been some proposals to indeed have a jump in 11 

## efficiency but this is not final yet, it is still 12 

## being negotiated. 13 

## MR. WOLF: Thank you Armin. So Mike Wolf 14 

## again, so do you guys again to move the discussion 15 

## forward do we feel comfortable with what's -- I'm 16 

## sorry go ahead Mark. 17 

## MR. BUBLITZ: I can finish my point. Okay 18 

## so we started with let me be more accurate color 19 

## types and then if you recall the first NODA came out 20 

## and there were very broad buckets and we took those 21 

## broad buckets and compared it against the existing 22 

## AMCA categories which were really mis-mapped and weASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## rehashed all of that and we said well instead of a 2 

## centrifugal fan we think there are distinct 3 

## differences within this category so it really was 4 

## there was no communication but there was a lot of 5 

## give and take between what we had in front of us and 6 

## our existing definitions and put those together and 7 

## then there was lots and lots and lots of discussion 8 

## on how application influenced a product definition. 9 

## And it's kind of a mish mash of things 10 

## that are in and out based on application. If you 11 

## swept with a broad brush you could put everything 12 

## labeled axial, axial. So the other little -- the 13 

## other significant strategy or thing we were trying to 14 

## accomplish was as we understood it we wanted as many 15 

## characteristics to be visual right, we understood the 16 

## NODA to be -- to have a recommendation to say I need 17 

## to walk up to this fan and identify it. 18 

## So there was a great -- there was great 19 

## pressure to remove application descriptions from 20 

## product categories and I hope I can communicate how 21 

## long and painful it was for that list to get to where 22 

## it's at, but I think that's how we got there and IASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## would be happy to try to take any questions of that 2 

## process. 3 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I just want to make 4 

## sure -- thank you it was a very good background just 5 

## to make sure I got the thought process correctly. 6 

## You looked at impeller types, categories based on 7 

## specific speed, application impact and visual 8 

## characteristics. 9 

## MR. BUBLITZ: This is Mark Bublitz, New 10 

## York Blower. We wanted to -- we originally had 11 

## application in there, dust material handling was in 12 

## there, and then we understood the NODA to request a 13 

## move to identify product categories visually, so 14 

## temperature, dust material handling, we displaced 15 

## those with more visual and whether that comes to be 16 

## that's just how we understood it and what drove our 17 

## decision-making. 18 

## MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan Hartlein, Laura 19 

## I just want to clarify just a little bit and that is 20 

## that you laid that out almost like we set out with a 21 

## matrix to solve these and we didn't. We spent lots 22 

## and lots and lots of hours debating this, throwingASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## things at it, seeing what would stick and what 2 

## wouldn't, but it wasn't like we had a definition from 3 

## anybody to say go answer these questions. So we did 4 

## it as an industry to say hey what are the holes here, 5 

## have we covered it, do we have everything, what are 6 

## the exceptions and so this is kind of where we 7 

## landed. 8 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Thanks Dan I didn't 9 

## mean to be reductionist about the process. It was 10 

## really just to get some background information on how 11 

## you all were thinking about it. Not being the fan 12 

## expert that you guys are is this inclusive of 13 

## basically all fans, including those -- 14 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New York 15 

## Blower. That's the question. 16 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Okay. 17 

## MR. BUBLITZ: We think we got them all. 18 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Okay. 19 

## MR. BUBLITZ: We think you could put 20 

## everything in a bucket. 21 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Thank you. 22 

## MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON so I want toASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## just throw a couple of things out there. Is a 2 

## stand-alone fan is an unhoused centrifugal a fan 3 

## type? From your guys perspective and I guess -- and 4 

## I'll throw all three -- my three comments out and 5 

## then are housed centrifugals in your viewpoint ever 6 

## applied un-ducted? And does it matter if it's a 7 

## ducted inlet and a ducted outlet or one or the other 8 

## because I think performance varies with all of those. 9 

## And are we too much in the weeds trying to define all 10 

## of that I guess is part of the question. 11 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New York 12 

## Blower. We were in those weeds a long time and we 13 

## ended up -- we ended up saying yeah there's all kinds 14 

## of different -- we think that in most cases those 15 

## categories are applied in those ducting conditions 16 

## and to get across the finish line we said oh this is 17 

## the best we have got, so yes there are conflicting 18 

## pieces, Dan I'll yield the floor. 19 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Yeah, Dan Hartlein. I just 20 

## wanted to add that when we talk about the differences 21 

## in our opinion of measuring on static efficiency 22 

## versus the total, we are actually in the non-ductedASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## outlets so we are specifically referring to yeah -- a 2 

## non-ducted outlet. 3 

## MR. WOLF: So this is Mike Wolf, so Mark 4 

## are you proposing something different or I'm sorry, 5 

## this is Mark, Mark Fly? 6 

## MR. FLY: Mark Fly, AAON. I'm not 7 

## proposing anything different, I'm just trying to 8 

## understand the thought process going forward so you 9 

## know the reason for the definition between ducted and 10 

## non-ducted was to be able to rate the fans in either 11 

## static or total efficiency and draw a line there, 12 

## that was the primary driver there. 13 

## MR. WOLF: Yes. 14 

## MR. FLY: Okay. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Not to be difficult. 16 

## MR. SMILEY: I have one question. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Oops sorry go ahead. 18 

## MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. If you 19 

## have a housed centrifugal fan that's not connected to 20 

## a duct but discharges it to a plenum, that would be 21 

## classified as ducted on this list, would you use the 22 

## outlet area then of the housing to calculate theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## velocity pressure so you could get the total 2 

## pressure? Is that how you would do it? 3 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New York 4 

## Blower. If you are in the ducted category that is 5 

## what you would do. 6 

## MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf, Greenheck. But Bill 7 

## let me understand -- that was our assumption and part 8 

## of that assumption comes, at least in my mind based 9 

## on AMCA standard 210 as structured right now and the 10 

## method of test for those different fan categories. 11 

## And the method of test in 210 and you guys jump in if 12 

## I am wrong here, because it has been a few years 13 

## since I have been real close to the testing. 14 

## But I believe the way we do that test is 15 

## we put a duct on the outlet of that fan to be able to 16 

## regain some of that energy in the testing process. 17 

## Now you might take that fan and apply it somewhere 18 

## where it doesn't have a ducted outlet and we are not 19 

## saying that you are going to make that a non-ducted 20 

## fan, and test it with no duct on it. 21 

## MR. SMILEY: I guess I was not really 22 

## staying in the stand-alone fan category I'm sorry.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. HARTLEIN: The rest of us are trying 2 

## real hard to -- this is Dan Hartlein, Twin City Fan. 3 

## I wanted to add one other thought too and that also 4 

## we had discussed entered into our filtering and 5 

## thought process was also the potential and ability to 6 

## actually have a different efficiency level on the 7 

## different product lines because this kind of gives 8 

## you a different range of efficiency level. 9 

## Everything can't be an airfoil centrifugal fan 10 

## running at peak efficiency so therefore these 11 

## products kind of step a little bit and it gives us 12 

## some flexibility in the future rulemaking in order to 13 

## set by category a different target efficiency level 14 

## if that became necessary, so that was the other thing 15 

## that we had in mind as we created this, thank you. 16 

## MR. BOSWELL: And Tom did you have a 17 

## comment? 18 

## MR. CATANIA: Yeah I just wanted to expand 19 

## a little bit on what Dan just said and that is that 20 

## you do, you know these conversations at the weed 21 

## level do matter because you have to periodically step 22 

## out of the weeds and say where are we going and IASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## think as we go through this exercise we have to 2 

## continually do that and say okay, okay what is the 3 

## significance of this distinction for the objectives 4 

## that we are trying to achieve and that came up a 5 

## little earlier when we were having our conversation 6 

## about connected load. 7 

## Not so much on -- we had a separate 8 

## conversation on more detailed making it a more 9 

## detailed description of how we have been using 10 

## connected load but the point is how much does it 11 

## matter to the overall achievement of the overall 12 

## efficiency objective and where might be the real 13 

## issues on utility or any of the other dimensions that 14 

## have to be considered so I do think as we go through 15 

## this exercise sometimes we find ourselves in the 16 

## weeds, we do have to step back and say okay what is 17 

## the purpose of this exercise. 18 

## MR. WOLF: Dan? 19 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Yeah Dan Hartlein. One 20 

## other point of clarification as well as I think back 21 

## to this process -- we also talked quite a bit about 22 

## the fact that we don't always determine how the fanASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## is applied when it ships from our factory. So the 2 

## way that we looked at that as it came to ducted and 3 

## un-ducted is that if it is shipped in a potentially 4 

## ducted outlet configuration, we would call that a 5 

## ducted fan, we would comply with the ducted 6 

## requirement because we don't -- we simply don't know 7 

## when the fan ships whether it is going to be applied 8 

## you know, if it has an outlet flange maybe it is 9 

## likely but who knows for sure so we just kind of 10 

## concluded that we would see that as a ducted fan if 11 

## it is shipped in an outlet configuration that was 12 

## allowed to be ducted. 13 

## It takes the application question out of 14 

## it right? 15 

## MR. WOLF: Joanna? 16 

## MS. MAUER: Dan I just want to -- this is 17 

## Joanna, I just want to make sure that I am 18 

## understanding what you are saying because I thought 19 

## we were talking about you know if the fan is in one 20 

## of the categories below, in the ducted column, it 21 

## would be test rated as a ducted fan, is that what you 22 

## are saying?ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. HARTLEIN: That's essentially what it 2 

## was. 3 

## MS. MAUER: Okay. 4 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Sorry, Dan Hartlein, yes. 5 

## MR. FLY: Mark Fly, AAON. But there's not 6 

## a requirement that it be applied as a ducted fan. 7 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, that's 8 

## accurate. 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we will get to the 10 

## ducted, un-ducted discussion when we talk about 11 

## potentially a metric and test procedure conditions. 12 

## One thing you probably have noticed if you took a 13 

## deep dive into the NODA, DOE didn't differentiate 14 

## between ducted and un-ducted. At the point of -- I'm 15 

## not sure we exactly agree we will have that 16 

## conversation, but let's first talk about these 17 

## categories to get back to it and can we at least all 18 

## agree that fans meeting for lack of a better term, 19 

## the definitions in these categories should be in 20 

## scope. 21 

## MS. WOLF: As stand-alone fans. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well --ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. WOLF: We are going to get there, 2 

## we'll go to Brooklyn trust me. So temperature? 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Temperature. 4 

## (People holding thumbs up) 5 

## According to my friend at the microphone, 6 

## yes. 7 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so -- 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay so it's all thumbs up 9 

## and one abstained. 10 

## MR. BOSWELL: I think two abstained. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you abstaining, your 12 

## thumb is up. 13 

## OFF MIC: State the question? 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we agree that those 15 

## should be in scope for standards? 16 

## (People holding thumbs up). 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 18 

## MR. SMILEY: A point of clarification in 19 

## option one, stand-alone fans? 20 

## MR. WOLF: Stand-alone yes. 21 

## MR. SMILEY: You didn't state that. Okay, 22 

## excuse me Bill Smiley, Trane.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. WOLF: Sorry Ashley, yes for 2 

## stand-alone fans, okay. So now to address Ashley's 3 

## thing maybe what I will propose here is instead of 4 

## going down the scope of definition load, as long as 5 

## everything is kind of agreeing on this and did 6 

## anybody object to this? We had some people that 7 

## weren't sure, I think probably because they don't 8 

## know if number one impacts number two or three. So 9 

## what I would propose take a temperature again is if 10 

## we can agree that this group of fans should be in 11 

## scope as we all kind of have it envisioned in our 12 

## head, there are probably some details that we have 13 

## got to work out here, trust me there is -- then could 14 

## we go and start talking about category two, which 15 

## ones of these fans -- these stand-alone fans 16 

## potentially get used in non-regulated products? 17 

## So they get put in another piece of 18 

## equipment. Temperature on that would everybody agree 19 

## with taking that on as the next discussion topic? 20 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I would actually be 21 

## more interested in hearing about what's on slide 53 22 

## which seems to be the rest of what was discussedASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## previously with the AMCA members. 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't have it you are 3 

## not going to find it. 4 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Or it's -- 5 

## MR. FERSTROM: So Ashley this is Gary. By 6 

## agreeing to including these we are not presuming 7 

## anything not here is excluded right, thank you. 8 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 9 

## MR. WOLF: Is this is the slide Laura? 10 

## MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan, Gary I would 11 

## be shocked if there's anything not on that list, but 12 

## I would be really curious if you find something, it 13 

## would be interesting. We have been pretty -- I think 14 

## we have been pretty thorough here. 15 

## MR. FERSTROM: I have a little -- Dan, Dan 16 

## this is Gary. I have a little axial fan powered by 17 

## battery operated motor on my beanie and I wanted to 18 

## make sure that it wasn't going to be excluded. 19 

## MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan, I think it 20 

## depends on if it is a rechargeable battery or not. 21 

## MR. WOLF: So -- 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I actually think youASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## should go back to 8 because I think you should 2 

## proceed with the discussion in terms of are these 3 

## fans actually embedded products that are unregulated 4 

## and what should we do for those? 5 

## MR. WOLF: So I will go back to that 6 

## question from a process standpoint would everybody 7 

## feel comfortable with moving on and discussing this 8 

## slide relative to fans and fans in 9 

## non-regulated products? 10 

## MR. FLY: And you are saying are all of 11 

## these included, this is Mark Fly with AAON. Are all 12 

## of these included? I would agree that they are and I 13 

## am completely talking out of turn because I don't 14 

## know anything about it but cross flow fans is one of 15 

## them that comes up and embedded, unregulated products 16 

## that isn't in there. 17 

## MR. WOLF: Laura, you have got a question 18 

## or a suggestion or comment? 19 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I was just curious if 20 

## the centrifugal powered roof and wall ventilators and 21 

## the actual powered axial powers roof and wall 22 

## ventilators were considered fan types or equipmentASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## types, I don't know. 2 

## MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan. An area of 3 

## great debate for us in that arena and after much, 4 

## much consideration I think the ability for it to 5 

## operate independent as a fan kind of put us to the 6 

## side of saying that's a fan. So we kind of concluded 7 

## that that was a fan is where we were, that's an -- 8 

## you know, that's an independently testable piece of 9 

## equipment as a fan and the parts of it can't work. 10 

## MR. WOLF: Laura I guess I would propose 11 

## we come back to that discussion because I really 12 

## think that's going to open up a whole other can of 13 

## worms. 14 

## MR. HARTLEIN: It's going to take you 15 

## down the other path. 16 

## MR. WOLF: Yeah. 17 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Okay so we will look 18 

## at everything but those. 19 

## MR. WOLF: Yeah so maybe if we can just 20 

## get through and again I'm not trying to force it if 21 

## you guys have another idea. 22 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: That's fine, I justASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## want to be clear about what we are talking about. 2 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so maybe well okay, all 3 

## right. So I guess the question I would pose is this 4 

## group of fans and I don't even -- I mean maybe first 5 

## of all let's talk about what are non-regulated 6 

## products? Could somebody give me an example of those 7 

## or maybe I will start out with giving what my 8 

## understanding of what non-regulated product is that 9 

## my company manufactures and I think Nick this is 10 

## where you jump in too maybe if you want -- like an 11 

## energy recovery ventilator. 12 

## I know this has been a topic with AHRI I 13 

## think it's one of your product categories right 14 

## Laura? 15 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Yes. 16 

## MR. WOLF: But it is a non-regulated 17 

## product right? 18 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Correct. 19 

## MR. WOLF: So okay so correct, so Mark -- 20 

## Mark Fly you had the comment this morning that an ERV 21 

## unit we have got two fans. So you know, so we are 22 

## regulating those fans then in that ERV unit whetherASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## we are or aren't I guess. Let me back up -- that 2 

## would be an example of a non-regulated -- a fan that 3 

## would go into a non-regulated product. 4 

## Another example that I have would be a 5 

## piece of equipment that goes on you know most 6 

## restaurant and kitchen applications. It's a makeup 7 

## air unit, it has a lot of the same components as some 8 

## of the unitary stuff I guess that we have been 9 

## talking about with regard to heating and cooling, 10 

## sometimes it doesn't. 11 

## But to my understanding that's a 12 

## non-regulated product. Is that -- am I correct on 13 

## that? 14 

## (Only a few thumbs up) 15 

## Okay any other examples that would fall 16 

## into this that we ought to give consideration to as 17 

## we continue the discussion here? 18 

## MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I think one 19 

## example would be unitary equipment but that have 20 

## equipment with capacity that is greater than 760,000 21 

## BTU's per hour which are currently covered by DOE 22 

## standards.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. WOLF: So I guess let me ask a point 2 

## of -- Ashley how do we get these things kind of 3 

## noted? 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want me to type? 5 

## MR. WOLF: Yeah please. 6 

## (Ms. Armstrong to front to type on 7 

## slides). 8 

## MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan. I just want 9 

## to understand the exercise here. So we are going to 10 

## create a massive list of places where fans are used 11 

## in another piece of equipment that is unregulated. 12 

## Might I suggest that that is going to be 90 to 1,000 13 

## pages long and we probably should talk about where 14 

## they are actually regulated because that is a very 15 

## short list. 16 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so this is Mike Wolf so 17 

## you suggest that we jump to number three first? 18 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Well I am just saying that 19 

## creating this list is going to be huge when you 20 

## include industrial and commercial applications of a 21 

## fan inside another piece of equipment, it is going to 22 

## be a massive list.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Probably the main 2 

## discussion is to fans one horsepower and above for 3 

## this too? 4 

## MR. HARTLEIN: That's a good question. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's start there we'll 6 

## see how this goes. So just as a fundamental before 7 

## we create the list Dan had a good point. We could be 8 

## here all day creating a list of endless examples. 9 

## Can we take a temperature? Do people have a 10 

## fundamental objection to fans that are in unregulated 11 

## equipment being in scope? So fans that are -- fans 12 

## that are of these categories then unregulated 13 

## equipment. Does anyone have an objection to those 14 

## being in scope for standards? 15 

## MR. CATANIA: I have a question there. 16 

## That doesn't preclude them being then later 17 

## classified for an exemption if there is some good 18 

## reason for that particular one to be exempted right? 19 

## This is just we are starting big and then -- 20 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Starting big and go back 21 

## to -- but as a fundamental big picture because then 22 

## the list becomes irrelevant. If we all fundamentallyASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## agree with the premise then we can move on, then it 2 

## really becomes about bucket three. 3 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: This is Laura Petrillo 4 

## Groh from AHRI. There are a few equipment types that 5 

## are tied directly to where the fan operation is tied 6 

## directly to heat rejection that we would -- that we 7 

## are not going to agree to yet. 8 

## MR. FERSTROM: Ashley this is Gary. How 9 

## would we know which of these fans would be going into 10 

## non-regulated equipment if they had the potential to 11 

## be installed in different kinds of equipment, 12 

## regulated, non-regulated, et cetera? 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think you just jumped 14 

## us back to this morning's discussion where we were -- 15 

## I mean point well taken, I agree right, just 16 

## generally as a premise it is hard to know from the 17 

## point of the fan manufacturer where ultimately these 18 

## things will have to go. So what I think we were 19 

## trying to do though is talk through some of the finer 20 

## details and maybe save the more sticky issue for the 21 

## area where it might only exist. 22 

## MR. FERSTROM: Okay well putting thatASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## aspect aside for the moment you asked a good question 2 

## and I support these categories for unregulated 3 

## equipment. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Others? 5 

## (People's thumbs up). 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: How about raise your hand 7 

## if your thumb is not up, Mike is it down or sideways? 8 

## You're going down, really? 9 

## MR. WOLF: I can switch in a heartbeat, 10 

## trust me. 11 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: You are standing very 12 

## close to me you know. 13 

## MR. WOLF: It's a playground. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 15 

## MR. WOLF: Since my thumb is down can I 16 

## go? 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, thumbs down. 18 

## MR. WOLF: Mike Wolf from Greenheck. So 19 

## this comes back to and since I guess my question to 20 

## the group is if we go to this product right here as 21 

## an example all right -- this product I don't -- this 22 

## product could fall if we go back to the -- so this isASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## I think everybody can relate to so I can't walk away 2 

## from the mic and point so if you look at this blower 3 

## right here I think everybody is -- take a 4 

## temperature, everybody would recognize that as a 5 

## scrolled centrifugal blower, would that be a fair 6 

## statement? 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: The top one is a laser. 8 

## MR. WOLF: The top one? Can you see it I 9 

## can't see it. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It's right there. 11 

## MR. WOLF: I can't see it sorry, I'm color 12 

## blind I guess. Maybe -- so the question I have 13 

## relative to this particular product okay because we 14 

## are you know, Laura you kind of touched on it a 15 

## minute ago so if you look at the fan over here in my 16 

## mind I would say that's a power roof ventilator. It 17 

## goes on a roof, it's got power -- I think we don't 18 

## have a definition of a power roof ventilator I don't 19 

## think but in terms of the way I envision it I would 20 

## say that's a power roof ventilator. 21 

## But it is also a centrifugal housed blower 22 

## so now this piece of equipment right here by ourASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## definition I would say is an unregulated product, 2 

## okay. So for purposes of regulation the thing that I 3 

## am unclear of is -- does this get regulated or does a 4 

## scroll blower get regulated? And what I am hoping is 5 

## if we could work our way through this exercise and 6 

## hopefully it is a pretty simple one, it will help us 7 

## when we get into the further discussions on embedded 8 

## and regulated products. So what's the yeah Armin? 9 

## MR. HAUER: Armin Hauer, ebm-papst. I 10 

## think it would be easiest if we regulated scroll 11 

## blower. 12 

## MR. WOLF: Mark? 13 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Mark Bublitz, New York 14 

## Blower. In looking at the picture I just ask the 15 

## question could we say if the fan exists on its own 16 

## and it becomes the category. But if the fan was -- 17 

## if that power roof ventilator or if you couldn't pull 18 

## the fan out unless it was just a pile of parts or the 19 

## housing was an integral part of the roof ventilator, 20 

## then that wouldn't be the fan. The whole thing would 21 

## be the fan. 22 

## Is it a free-standing issue, have you guysASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## struggled with any of those thoughts when looking at 2 

## your fan categories? 3 

## MR. WOLF: So Ashley I think Mark's 4 

## directing that question to the DOE, have we struggled 5 

## with that concept before? 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah so we can do this a 7 

## number of different ways. I think one of the things 8 

## we had on our slides before was we had considered a 9 

## definition for housing and this is part of the reason 10 

## why and so to the extent something is not that 11 

## definition then we could point to a way to regulate 12 

## that piece of equipment. 13 

## MR. WOLF: Do we want to pull that up and 14 

## look at it? 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It's just a fan inside a 16 

## box, that's all I see. 17 

## MR. BUBLITZ: I'm sorry could you be more 18 

## clear on your comment about housing? I think I know 19 

## where you are going but -- 20 

## MS. IYAMA: So this is Sanaee. 21 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Thank you Sanaee. 22 

## MS. IYAMA: I think one of the ideas behindASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## listing the basic parts of a fan in the fan 2 

## definition was to get a sense of what's the physical 3 

## boundary for a fan. Like is it just the impeller, is 4 

## it the impeller and shaft and the structure or the 5 

## housing? And when we say housing, what do we mean? 6 

## Is the housing also something that serves as a 7 

## structure for the fan or just something that can be 8 

## easily removed? 9 

## So maybe one thing to consider is what do 10 

## we define as the basic parts of the fan meaning the 11 

## parts that need to be here for the fan to be able to 12 

## be tested. 13 

## Maybe that could help sort of deciding 14 

## whether this is a PRV or not. 15 

## MR. WOLF: So this is Mike Wolf, is this 16 

## a question or suggestion or something we can 17 

## reference? 18 

## MS. IYAMA: It's just a suggestion. 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: What is the suggestion, I 20 

## think that's what they are asking? 21 

## MS. IYAMA: What? 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: What are we asking, if weASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## base it off of this right where we said -- 2 

## MS. IYAMA: Do we agree on the basic parts? 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah so if we agree about 4 

## the basic components of a fan, are an impeller, 5 

## shaft, bearings and a structure or housing and then 6 

## we go forth and say you know the structure is any 7 

## integral component of a fan necessary to support the 8 

## impeller and then the housing any integral component 9 

## of the fan that directs flow into or out of the 10 

## impeller and/or provides protection to the internal 11 

## components, a housing serves as a fan structure would 12 

## that do it? Would that help with this 13 

## differentiation problem? 14 

## It's on slide 49 for those that have the 15 

## print outs from yesterday. You don't have it 16 

## because it is in the other -- oh you have the other 17 

## slides out apparently, 48. 18 

## MR. HAUER: This is Armin Hauer speaking. 19 

## Now with a PRV like that if we define that PRV is a 20 

## fan and then you have this PRV different versions, 21 

## maybe for hurricane rating or for a different outage 22 

## configurations, would you then like to see for PRV'sASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## different minimum efficiency levels based on this 2 

## exterior arrangements? I think it's really not 3 

## doable. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we would 5 

## want to see that. 6 

## MR. WOLF: This is Mike Wolf. I wouldn't 7 

## want to see that. I mean part of the eloquence of 8 

## the FER that is in the last NODA is that we can use 9 

## pretty much the same you know metric across fan types 10 

## so it keeps it very simple so I think my initial 11 

## response is no. 12 

## MR. HAUER: This means you have to leave 13 

## the louvers and everything outside of the PRV away 14 

## from your consideration so it would not be a fan. 15 

## MR. WOLF: Well I guess I'm going to defer 16 

## to somebody here that put these components -- that's 17 

## a great question I agree, I don't know the answer 18 

## though. 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is Ashley from 20 

## DOE. I mean we do have I think elements in our 21 

## regulations that could deal with that. I don't think 22 

## the idea would be for every different combination ofASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## components or accessories or housing structures that 2 

## are built for different environments would 3 

## necessarily have to be tested and rated. 4 

## I mean we have a variety of different ways 5 

## we could deal with that but that definitely wasn't 6 

## the intention, no. 7 

## MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. So 8 

## just to kind of push that around and so I get a 9 

## better understanding of your interpretation, let's 10 

## take a simple air handler which is a fairly high 11 

## volume HVAC product that's around the industry and it 12 

## has a filter, a coil, a fan discharging and 13 

## so and let's say for the 14 

## sake of argument that the structure that supports the 15 

## fan impeller is integral to the cabinet which happens 16 

## on smaller air handlers many times. 17 

## So is the coil included? Is the filter 18 

## included? Is the whole cabinet from inlet to outlet 19 

## part of the fan because that's the housing? And I'm 20 

## talking about and a housed fan, let's say is the 21 

## discharge -- because you can't pull that impeller and 22 

## motor out, it falls on the floor by itself.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## And I guess I'm asking your interpretation 2 

## -- how would you see that, or do you know? 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean I think that's up 4 

## for discussion right. I think that's part of what 5 

## this was meant to be. You know it could go either 6 

## way, obviously I think you have to have some type of 7 

## a structure there that makes it a fan, now whether it 8 

## needs to have all of the components that are going in 9 

## that cabinetry as well, that could be discussed. 10 

## MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON again. And 11 

## so if we test it without the components we are 12 

## testing it in a configuration that will never be 13 

## reapplied. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. 15 

## MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan Hartlein from 16 

## Twin City Fan. There's also a range of products 17 

## called plenum fans that can run obviously independent 18 

## so it is a fan in and of itself even though it's an 19 

## unhoused centrifugal fan typically. And then there's 20 

## the range of product where it's really not a fan 21 

## until it's built in so my question would be when that 22 

## happens so if an air handling unit manufacturer buysASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## a wheel from a fan manufacturer, when does that 2 

## become a fan at the point that it's testable as a fan 3 

## so the point of regulation in that case would not be 4 

## the impeller -- the point of regulation would likely 5 

## be when it was built into that cabinet is that 6 

## correct? 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: (Nodding). 8 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Okay thank you. 9 

## MR. WOLF: Laura? 10 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I have a question 11 

## about the thought exercise that we were going 12 

## through. Can you go back to the pictures, if we know 13 

## what slide that is. 14 

## MR. WOLF: I'm sorry the picture that -- 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It's a website. 16 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Oh I'm sorry it's a 17 

## website here. So testing of this product which is a 18 

## -- is that a power roof ventilator? 19 

## MR. WOLF: It depends. 20 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Half of it? So can 21 

## you test the fan by itself? 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MS. PETRILLO GROH: And you can test the 2 

## power roof ventilator too? 3 

## MR. WOLF: Yeah. 4 

## MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. That 5 

## would apply to this particular example but all power 6 

## roof ventilators do not necessarily have a 7 

## stand-alone fan installed in its entirety and in the 8 

## closure. Sometimes you have the power roof 9 

## ventilator impeller, the rest of that unit structure 10 

## and everything is part of the housing of the entire 11 

## power roof ventilator. So yes and no. 12 

## MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary, the power 13 

## roof ventilator is this thing that goes on the roof 14 

## that sucks the air out of the building and discharges 15 

## that -- 16 

## MR. WOLF: Gary, I'm sorry Mike Wolf here. 17 

## I'm going to stop you there. It doesn't always suck 18 

## it out of the building, sometimes -- in this 19 

## particular case, that's why I brought this up this is 20 

## blowing it back in to the building sorry. 21 

## MR. FERNSTROM: Well anyway what I was 22 

## trying to do is differentiate between the shroud andASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## the actual air movers inside and you know here you 2 

## have a sort of a cubicle shroud and one sort of an 3 

## air mover. As was pointed out earlier you might have 4 

## the fan being part of the tube and it could be all 5 

## one piece of equipment. 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think we could talk 7 

## all day about potential different variations and 8 

## configurations thereof and how they could or couldn't 9 

## be so you brought up this lovely example, how would 10 

## you test it? How do you want to test it? 11 

## MR. WOLF: I guess let me answer this is 12 

## Mike Wolf, Greenheck. I guess I will answer it two 13 

## ways, number one the way that it is tested today is 14 

## we test it as a unit like is shown on the left here 15 

## okay. So we test it like I would envision testing a 16 

## power roof ventilator. 17 

## For purposes of this regulation to keep 18 

## life simple for everyone I would propose testing this 19 

## fan on the right because based on the description of 20 

## the slide that we just looked at this component here 21 

## has an impeller, it has some drive components and it 22 

## has a housing. Now the fact that we put a secondaryASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## housing on it for purposes of utility that's called, 2 

## because that is all it is there for. 3 

## And the utility in this case is we are 4 

## trying to prevent from sucking rain and snow and 5 

## debris into the building so it's really a question of 6 

## utility at that point and the fan itself is this 7 

## component -- I'm sorry the one on the right. So the 8 

## answer to your question to ask me what I would 9 

## suggest or propose for this rulemaking is the fan be 10 

## regulated at its most basic level and Mark I think 11 

## that's what you were saying to this earlier. 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah so DOE agrees with 13 

## that. 14 

## MR. WOLF : Okay. 15 

## MR. HARTLEIN: I would add a little 16 

## thought to that. Basic I think could be further 17 

## defined as a basic testable configuration because we 18 

## have got to -- to comply with the regulation it has 19 

## got to be testable and provable or some alternative, 20 

## what do you guys call it, ADEM, EDM I think -- 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: You got it. 22 

## MR. HARTLEIN: I'm getting much better atASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### it. 2 

### MR. WOLF: Could somebody define what that 3 

### is for the people who might not know. 4 

### MR. HARTLEIN: That's Alternative 5 

### Efficiency Determination Method. 6 

### MR. WOLF: And what is that and where 7 

### would it be used and how does it apply to this? 8 

### MR. HARTLEIN: Well for example the 9 

### example I would use is that if you were shipping that 10 

### fan as a bare-shafted fan meaning no motor and belt 11 

### drive, there would be an acceptably calculable method 12 

### that would estimate the wire to air, the conversion of the 13 

### electrical power to the mechanical power in order to 14 

### make the fan work, so to me that would be a 15 

### calculation that would allow us to include the motor 16 

### and I believe AMCA 207 has been established to do 17 

### exactly that as an industry standard. 18 

### MR. WOLF: Okay so this is Mike Wolf from 19 

### Greenheck again. So I get that, you wouldn't 20 

### consider extending that to say housing or casing 21 

### losses or would we? And I'm thinking of Mark Fly's 22 

### situation where okay we are going to put this fan inASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## something, and do I test it with everything in there 2 

## or can I come up with some generic casing losses to 3 

## estimate what the performance is going to be. 4 

## MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. So 5 

## are the system effects imposed by putting the fan 6 

## inside of a box in or out of the regulation? 7 

## MR. WOLF: Well I'll take -- this is Mike 8 

## Wolf again, I'll take a shot at answering. Based on 9 

## what I am hearing right now as long as the fan has 10 

## the components of an impeller, a drive and housing, 11 

## allow it to be supported on its own then it would be 12 

## tested that way. Now if you have got -- let's take 13 

## this example because everybody can visualize. 14 

## Let's say that I don't have this housing 15 

## here, I actually build the fan into this thing on the 16 

## right. I built some kind of a drive frame assembly 17 

## and I figure out how to get rid of all this extra 18 

## stuff here on the right and cut the cost of this 19 

## thing by just putting an impeller and a drive 20 

## mechanism in this outside part now becomes my 21 

## housing. 22 

## Now I would be required to test that fanASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## that way. I don't know if that answers your question 2 

## or not Mark but -- 3 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Mike this is Dan Hartlein, 4 

## I would add to that as well that typically that that 5 

## exchange that you just did was a trade of cost for a 6 

## lower efficiency. So in that situation I would think 7 

## that would have to apply so we are trading costs for 8 

## a product that doesn't work as well. It may work 9 

## well enough but it doesn't work as well so that 10 

## scroll is specifically designed to effectively 11 

## capture that energy which is an expansion outward, 12 

## right? It's a radial expansion that is then captured 13 

## and channeled into a flow that we can use. 14 

## MR. WOLF: So Dan, Mike here again. So I 15 

## would say you could make that assumption, who knows 16 

## maybe there's some smart guy in the room here that 17 

## figures out how to make the fan more efficient 18 

## without that housing and extra cost and now it's 19 

## really a case of he's built the better mousetrap and 20 

## we want to regulate that poor mousetrap. 21 

## MR. HARTLEIN: This is Dan Hartlein again. 22 

## And that the plenum fan industry exists because ofASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## that point. That fan, actually that duty point is 2 

## more effective than the housed alternative so in that 3 

## case we have done precisely that, we have made the 4 

## fan less expensive and, not but -- and more efficient 5 

## so we have done both. 6 

## MR. FLY: I was going to say -- this is 7 

## Mark Fly with AAON. I was going to the same point so 8 

## also I have the ability of that particular fan in the 9 

## work it needs to do and maybe it needs to move air at 10 

## a lower velocity than would be typical of a housed 11 

## fan. So -- on the other hand how do you deal 12 

## typically in an AMCA arrangement you test a plenum 13 

## fan in a completely open discharge application and 14 

## I'm not aware of many places where a completely open 15 

## discharge is the application. 16 

## So going back to my air handling example 17 

## with Ashley, so could I take the discharge plenum off 18 

## of it and test it because I can test it in a 210 19 

## arrangement by just taking the walls off the 20 

## discharge plenum and it's tested in a 210 un-ducted 21 

## discharge plenum fan arrangement and it may -- and I 22 

## won't have to take the outlet losses of having theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## exit off of my plenum, so there's lots of ways. 2 

## MR. WOLF: So I'm sorry Mike, was that a 3 

## question to Ashley or is it just a comment that we 4 

## have to work through? 5 

## MS. CATANIA: Tom Catania, AMCA. You know 6 

## I think that if I'm understanding the functional 7 

## elements of this shroud here to me the distinction 8 

## you folks are talking about is the distinction 9 

## between a component part or housing that performs 10 

## that has a functional role in the movement of air 11 

## process as opposed to something nearly protecting 12 

## against external elements or you know, that sort of 13 

## thing and if it is part of this core function of 14 

## using energy from the utility supplied portion of the 15 

## grid, I guess if you are really going to find 16 

## distinctions, that's in the sweet spot of what we are 17 

## trying to address here. 18 

## If on the other hand this component is 19 

## only there for protective purposes or something and 20 

## is not affecting the conversion of energy into air 21 

## movement activity, then it would fall outside. My 22 

## question would be are there any broad categories ofASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## things where you have a large chunk of connected load 2 

## where there is a real debate as to whether or not 3 

## that add-on component is being used for functional 4 

## purposes versus protective purposes. 5 6 

## Because to me that's the only reason to 7 

## spend any more time on it -- if it is just sitting 8 

## there like a hat on top of the thing, a rain hat then 9 

## I don't know why we would want to spend too much time 10 

## on it. 11 

## MR. FINE: Are you saying that you want to 12 

## limit your definition of a fan to just that which 13 

## those I guess components or those -- that part of the 14 

## structure that actually transfers usually electrical 15 

## energy into moving air? 16 

## MR. CATANIA: Well I'm always -- I'm very 17 

## reluctant to you know, have -- so flippantly offer 18 

## such a fundamental definition but what I am saying is 19 

## I am trying to deal with this category of parts that 20 

## are associated with the fan that don't really play 21 

## any functional role in the activity of moving air. 22 

## MR. FINE: In the fan part.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane and those 2 

## louvers direct the flow into or out of the impeller. 3 

## You know based on the housing definition they are 4 

## applicable. 5 

## MR. CATANIA: Yeah well I agree with that 6 

## because that goes to this whole -- I agree with the 7 

## part of what you just said that goes to the issue of 8 

## is it part of the role of converting energy into air 9 

## movement, but that's not the example we had on the 10 

## screen, the component part we were talking about 11 

## didn't perform any role like that, if I understood 12 

## correctly. 13 

## MS. JAKOBS: Well it directs the air to 14 

## the impeller and also the energy consumption would be 15 

## different with and without the louver. 16 

## MR. SMILEY: Not in this case. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Diane not in the picture 18 

## that was on the screen. 19 

## MR. SMILEY: Not necessarily, I mean that 20 

## could change the way -- Bill Smiley, Trane -- those 21 

## louvers could change the way the air goes into the 22 

## inlet of the housing which can change the way thatASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## the impeller interacts with the air. 2 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And so I mean you guys -- 3 

## we can change this definition. They are talking 4 

## points, they are a starting point. I think the fact 5 

## that what we are trying to do though is explain that 6 

## just functionally from a testing standpoint some type 7 

## of housing is needed and if that's this integral 8 

## housing -- I agree with the comments in the room 9 

## about this idea that and external housing that's 10 

## added separately, that has a specific utility and the 11 

## many variations thereof that might be offered with a 12 

## given fan model that already has its own housing to 13 

## the fan are extraneous for the point of this 14 

## regulation. 15 

## And I think that's what is important. I 16 

## mean at least we all fundamentally agree with that 17 

## point. Yes? Yes, yes, yes. 18 

## (People thumbs up) 19 

## MR. WHITWELL: So this is Bob Whitwell 20 

## from Carrier. Just to clarify Ashley so using this 21 

## example here, this fan and this housed centrifugal fan 22 

## can be applied in this roof ventilator could be in anASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## air handler that sits up on a roof, could be in a 2 

## large rooftop unit. In all of those cases this would 3 

## be tested with just a fan and the housing I think is 4 

## what I am hearing as proposed, correct? 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: If it's included in those 6 

## other parts with the fan and the housing, does that 7 

## make sense? The answer is yes as long as -- I think 8 

## we are fine. 9 

## MR. WHITWELL: Yeah so this fan -- 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: As long as all the 11 

## components on the right are there. 12 

## MR. WHITWELL: All the components on the 13 

## right meaning not the cabinet but meaning that? 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 15 

## MR. WHITWELL: And the fan? 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 17 

## MR. WHITWELL: So in a non-regulated 18 

## product this fan would be tested the same way? 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes and not all the 20 

## variations thereof that might be applied. 21 

## MR. WHITWELL: Right. 22 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. Do you agreeASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## with that? Oh you are not voting. 2 

## MR. WHITWELL: Yes unfortunately I'm not 3 

## voting in this one. 4 

## MR. BOTELER: This is Rob Boteler with 5 

## Nidec. Am I on? This is a little bit and you guys are 6 

## going to learn this -- this is a term we call basic 7 

## model and that's where you are headed. And in the 8 

## motor world we have basic models, we only have 156 of 9 

## them and then we -- whoops, put different mechanical 10 

## components on there or we put seals and we still only 11 

## report back to DOE based on the basic model. 12 

## And in motor that's horsepower speed and 13 

## enclosure, we only have those three caveats that 14 

## define the basic model. Try to keep the amount of 15 

## product that you have to manage, the skews that you 16 

## have to manage once you get going to a minimum, 17 

## instead of adding all of the mechanical variations 18 

## that you have. 19 

## MR. HARTLEIN: So Rob, this is Dan 20 

## Hartlein, Twin City Fan. The challenge we have in 21 

## this room and in this industry frankly is that I 22 

## don't know of a motor supplier who sells the rotorASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## and someone else puts it in their housing or their 2 

## stator. So I know that happens on large equipment 3 

## but in your -- I don't think -- does that happen in 4 

## your industry? 5 

## MR. BOTELER: We sell thousands of them 6 

## every week. 7 

## MR. HARTLEIN: You do. 8 

## MR. BOTELER: Yeah we sell a rotor and a 9 

## stator to a manufacturer who installs that possibly 10 

## in a pump or possibly in a fan. 11 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Right. 12 

## MR. BOTELER: And when that occurs -- 13 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Okay. 14 

## MR. BOTELER: If they still then meet the 15 

## 9 caveats of what is an electric motor they just 16 

## became a motor manufacturer. 17 

## MR. HARTLEIN: So they are at the point of 18 

## regulation then. 19 

## MR. BOTELER: If they meet the 9 points in 20 

## the regulation. 21 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Right, got it, good thank 22 

## you, I didn't realize that. I always pictured aASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## motor as this self-contained -- 2 

## MR. FERSTROM: This is Gary. I always 3 

## pictured a fan as this self-contained thing. 4 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Point well taken Gary. 5 

## Little did you know. 6 

## MR. WOLF: Well okay -- 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead, I mean -- 8 

## MR. CATANIA: I am happily -- I have some 9 

## remote intelligence being conveyed to me by people 10 

## who really know what they are talking about in this 11 

## area and apparently there are some categories of fans 12 

## where the weather protection also is not removable 13 

## and has to be tested that way so I will leave it to 14 

## you guys to explain that in more detail but we don't 15 

## want to let that get lost here, it should still be 16 

## covered, including that piece. 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So you guys can't see our 18 

## notes over here as we are scribbling away but I think 19 

## we see you know, from a simplicity standpoint and we 20 

## see kind of two buckets and that is what is what I 21 

## would call just the fan and this testable 22 

## configuration that has the impeller et cetera and theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## housing and then we see what I would call an embedded 2 

## product which doesn't, you know, by its parts it's not 3 

## in a testable configuration and adding additional 4 

## things to it -- it is actually basic parts and it is 5 

## not -- it doesn't become a testable configuration 6 

## until it is actually included in a larger product. 7 

## And I think that those are the two 8 

## categories that we are talking about and there are 9 

## ways to get to the same answer for both. And so -- 10 

## and some of it maybe defaults and some of it may be 11 

## certain type of testing, some may be system losses 12 

## that are default values, I don't know what the right 13 

## answer is but I think those are the two buckets that 14 

## we are talking about. 15 

## So really to me it comes down to what is 16 

## the definition of this testable configuration. What 17 

## is a testable configuration look like because if a 18 

## fan has already been tested in a testable 19 

## configuration and you are just adding additional 20 

## parts to it for utility reasons or otherwise, you 21 

## know I think we could have the conversation but 22 

## generally speaking I don't think we need to test itASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## in every optional part that may be added to it, at 2 

## least that's my personal opinion. 3 

## I don't see a reason why we wouldn't go 4 

## down that pathway that would address what was on the 5 

## screen. It doesn't address all of the issues in 6 

## terms of when I don't have a testable configuration 7 

## and I am an actually embedded to get my testable 8 

## configuration what do I do -- but at least for those 9 

## that have a testable configuration, regardless of 10 

## whether they get embedded or not or added to later. 11 

## I mean do people agree that those should 12 

## be in the scope for standards? Temperature check? 13 

## (People thumbs up). 14 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Housed specifically? 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't matter, housed 16 

## or unhoused as long as they have a testable 17 

## configuration. 18 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: But I think that takes 19 

## us back to the previous discussions about embedded 20 

## products, I'm not entirely sure. 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It wouldn't impact the 22 

## embedded products as long as they had a testableASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## configuration first. If you are ultimately adding it 2 

## to -- so it goes back to Bob's example that he just 3 

## got up -- if I add Mike's unit from if you are 4 

## looking at the screen to the right -- if I ultimately 5 

## add that to an air handling unit or something else, 6 

## it had a testable configuration already. It was 7 

## tested, it was rated, it was regulated as a whatever 8 

## that is -- centrifugal house fan. 9 

## It otherwise doesn't need to be rated in 10 

## all the different options that may be offered in the 11 

## field. 12 

## MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. So 13 

## any system effects that happen in application no 14 

## longer matter is what you are saying. 15 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it depends on if 16 

## it's -- 17 

## MR. FLY: It certainly simplifies the 18 

## process. 19 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: The systems -- so that's 20 

## up for discussion but we could argue that the 21 

## systems' effects could be perhaps not considered for 22 

## those fans offered as a testable configurationASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## period. Now for those that aren't we have to talk 2 

## about system effects. 3 

## MR. WOLF: This is Mike Wolf here, let me 4 

## go back to Laura's question. Laura your question 5 

## specifically was related to housings so can you 6 

## repeat the question? 7 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: If I can remember back 8 

## that far. I just want to see if the temperature that 9 

## we were taking was for housed fans or embedded fans 10 

## or bullets at this point because there has been -- 11 

## there are, at least on slide 51 you know, there are a 12 

## few fans on that list as a possible scope of 13 

## negotiations that are unhoused and I don't know then 14 

## you know, I'm not intimately familiar with the 15 

## testing of those fans in the unhoused configuration 16 

## or how that plays into what we have been discussing 17 

## now. 18 

## Is that a testable configuration as an 19 

## unhoused you know axial unhoused, centrifugal 20 

## unhoused. 21 

## MR. WOLF: This is Mike Wolf again and I 22 

## hesitate to do this because I feel like we might beASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## making progress here but to the definition that I 2 

## just heard you describe Ashley is okay if it is an 3 

## testable configuration then that is all there is to 4 

## it. 5 

## (Ms. Armstrong nodding yes). 6 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so feel free to jump in 7 

## here if I am out of line anyone. 8 

## So I could take the scroll off from this fan and now 9 

## it's an unhoused centrifugal fan which is one of the 10 

## categories that we have I think here as an un-ducted 11 

## -- 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: It's on the next slide. 13 

## MR. WOLF: So an unhoused centrifugal fan 14 

## is going to be the simplest, most basic what was the 15 

## term you used Rob? Basic model I mean quite honestly 16 

## that is the basic model for a good portion of what we 17 

## do. So let me just stop and take the temperature or 18 

## ask Ashley specifically is that what you were 19 

## implying, because you just made this thing a whole 20 

## lot simpler? 21 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think necessarily. 22 

## MR. WOLF: I didn't think so.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah so I think it depends 2 

## -- I would think I was defining testable 3 

## configuration as inclusive of housing, right that I 4 

## think that in order to test this thing, but perhaps 5 

## you can correct me if I am misguided. 6 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so let's go back and 7 

## where's our definition of housing. 8 

## MR. CATANIA: And Mike let me try 9 

## something here. If you can also go back to the 10 

## picture for a second -- and the general comment while 11 

## he is bringing that up that I would make and this is 12 

## Tom Catania from AMCA -- is you have to be really 13 

## careful about trying to put people into gotcha 14 

## language here and I'm arguing on behalf of Ashley a 15 

## little bit here because when you are trying to do 16 

## this thing on the fly, if somebody makes a very 17 

## strong declarative statement -- are you saying "x" 18 

## and then we start writing and then blah you know, 19 

## this is a complicated industry and there's lots of 20 

## complicated examples and so you can't declare victory 21 

## for example if you know, in the press of the moment 22 

## somebody says yes and then they have to come back theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## next day and say oh well somebody explained to me 2 

## three different variations here where this doesn't 3 

## apply. 4 

## But in the picture that you had, 5 

## to me what we are talking about here is with the 6 

## exception of some specialized fans where the weather 7 

## protection is so connected to the product that has to 8 

## be tested that way but it doesn't perform any other 9 

## function other than weather protection, in this kind 10 

## of situation if somebody came up with a design that 11 

## said you know, a pyramid shape is a lot better for 12 

## rain redirection than a flat shape, we are certainly 13 

## not contemplating that you would have to test you 14 

## know, this configuration in the diamond shape rain 15 

## protection versus the flag-shaped rain protection and 16 

## so forth and it is only in the example you gave where 17 

## you took otherwise the housing off the of product. 18 

## Now we are talking about a functional 19 

## housing so I think -- I think that's the nature of 20 

## the distinction that we are talking about here, not 21 

## you know sort of this categorical definition. I got 22 

## a little nervous with the way you said it because itASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## sounded very kind of "gotcha". If you commit to this 2 

## then I have a whole series of things that I know that 3 

## you have now agreed to. 4 

## MR. FLY: That was not my intention. 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah it's definitely not 6 

## all systems right? I mean that's just clear. It has 7 

## to do with what we defined as testable configuration 8 

## it really comes on to those three terms. I don't 9 

## think it's as simple as just a fan, an impeller let's 10 

## put it that way. But I also don't think it's every 11 

## application that a fan may be applied in the field I 12 

## think we can simplify this, so. 13 

## MR. FLY: So this is Mark Fly with AAON. 14 

## And you know part of what I am trying to get at 15 

## thinking along the line of basic models which are 16 

## embedded in my brain you know -- if I have a 15 inch 17 

## unhoused plenum fan, is that a basic model or is that 18 

## model different in the 5 boxes that I put it in? 19 

## Is that 5 models or 1 model and I'm not 20 

## trying to get anybody, I'm just -- at the end of the 21 

## day we have got to draw something explainable that's 22 

## clear to anybody who was not sitting in the roomASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## during all of this discussion to figure out what it 2 

## is and so we need a lot of clarify here. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think it's hard to 4 

## have that type of detailed discussion unless we 5 

## actually agree to what types of fans we are talking 6 

## about. 7 

## MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. If we 8 

## say okay if you can pull the fan out of the 9 

## application and test it by itself it meets one level 10 

## of performance requirement. But if you test it in 11 

## its application it needs to meet a different level of 12 

## performance requirement? Because I assume that we 13 

## are going to define at some point in time, here are 14 

## the targets that we are shooting for it has to be 15 

## this or better or why are we doing this. 16 

## If you pull a fan out and test it by 17 

## itself and say okay use this fan because it's really 18 

## efficient you have to stick that in the unit, you 19 

## stick it in the unit and it doesn't work as well in 20 

## the unit as a lesser efficient fan would work in the 21 

## unit. Would you consider saying okay you can either 22 

## test the fan by itself or you can test the unit byASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## itself and whichever is better or whichever meets the 2 

## target, that's what you go into production. 3 

## Because I think that can happen, I have 4 

## seen it happen where you use a less efficient 5 

## stand-alone fan in the application and it works 6 

## better than a more efficient stand-alone fan in that 7 

## same application. 8 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I have a question. 9 

## MS. JAKOBS: Do you mean for better that 10 

## it uses less energy? 11 

## MR. SMILEY: Less overall energy in the 12 

## unit which is the whole goal, not just less fan 13 

## energy but so what I am asking is how are the 14 

## regulations going to apply in a situation like that 15 

## because we don't want to have unintended consequences 16 

## which that could push you into if you are not 17 

## careful. 18 

## MR. WOLF: This is Mike here again, I 19 

## guess Bill let me just and I know we are way off from 20 

## what I was proposing but I think what you are 21 

## describing, you are back into the regulated 22 

## discussion. If you have a product that does heatingASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## and cooling -- okay right, but okay -- I'll try to 2 

## summarize what I think I heard you say. 3 

## I think Greg you jumped on this this 4 

## morning a little bit in our break-out session is I 5 

## could have a fan just for discussion purposes, as one 6 

## of these fan categories and to take Ashley's 7 

## description and say okay we are going to define a fan 8 

## as something that is testable, that's the term that I 9 

## heard Ashley use. We have a testable configuration 10 

## for that fan and that's what we are going to 11 

## regulate. 12 

## If it's possible to take that testable 13 

## configuration, let's take an unhoused plenum fan and 14 

## I can have an unhoused plenum fan sitting here that's 15 

## very, very efficient in a testable configuration but 16 

## put it into something else that now directs the air 17 

## differently at the inlet outlet and have that fan 18 

## consume more energy than when it is tested in its DOE 19 

## regulated testable configuration and that's the 20 

## unintended consequence here. So -- 21 

## MR. SMILEY: Yes, Bill Smiley with Trane, 22 

## and to follow up further if you took a stand-aloneASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## fan tested that was not as efficient as the one that 2 

## you have just described and put it in the unit and it 3 

## used less energy than the more efficient stand-alone 4 

## fan did in that same unit. 5 

## MR. WOLF: So this is Mike again I'm going 6 

## to kind of circle back here because I guess my 7 

## question is, is that and I don't -- this is probably 8 

## where we don't have the day, is that an isolated 9 

## situation? I mean is that a very like move the dial 10 

## type, if we do this we potentially create an 11 

## unintended consequence using more energy than before 12 

## this regulation? 13 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Hey Mike? 14 

## MR. WOLF: Yeah? 15 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, Twin City 16 

## Fan. There's an assumption in this discussion that 17 

## one of those fans is permitted by the regulation and 18 

## the other one is not and I haven't seen much yet in 19 

## this whole process that would suggest that that could 20 

## be a problem. That's a functional level setting so 21 

## if the levels are set and both of those alternatives 22 

## are still available to the market, then that's maybeASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## some of the weeds that we can avoid, right? I mean 2 

## it's not necessary. 3 

## Now I certainly understand your point that 4 

## if fan A is regulated out of availability, out of 5 

## existence and fan B is the only choice and yet it is 6 

## consuming more energy we have done something wrong, 7 

## obviously collectively. 8 

## MR. WOLF: Right. 9 

## MR. HARTLEIN: But I do believe that from 10 

## what I have seen about where fan efficiencies are and 11 

## where fans typically perform and the type of level 12 

## settings that have at least been kicked around in 13 

## this process through the discussions that we have had 14 

## with the advocates, I don't believe that's a 15 

## consequence, I don't believe that is going to happen. 16 

## MR. SMILEY: I've seen it. 17 

## MR. HARTLEIN: It's a functional level 18 

## setting so. 19 

## MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, I guess the 20 

## point I was making is are we going to be -- is to 21 

## consider that potential situation so that we don't 22 

## back ourselves in a corner that is not the rightASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## corner to be in. I have seen it happen in the real 2 

## world. 3 

## MS. MAUER: Bill this is Joanna. I just 4 

## want to make sure that I understand when you are 5 

## talking about a more efficient or less efficient fan 6 

## are you talking about efficiency -- a best efficiency 7 

## point or efficiency at the operating point? 8 

## MR. SMILEY: Bill Smiley, Trane. Either. 9 

## Either, usually fans typically are not applied 10 

## exactly at the best efficiency point. 11 

## MS. MAUER: Right. 12 

## MR. SMILEY: You like to do that but 13 

## applications are not that definitive. 14 

## MS. MAUER: No I understand but you are 15 

## saying that even if you are looking at efficiency at 16 

## the point where you will be operating the fan. 17 

## MR. SMILEY: That's correct. 18 

## MS. MAUER: And when it's more efficient 19 

## at that point versus one that is less efficient at 20 

## that point. 21 

## MR. SMILEY: So all of those things I 22 

## think would enter into it, yeah.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. WOLF: So this is Mike again. So 2 

## Joanna I think to answer your question a little 3 

## differently and maybe to Bill's point to, the 4 

## question is if I test this fan on the right by itself 5 

## and then I put it into this component here, into this 6 

## thing that directs the air into and out of the fan, 7 

## if the performance is better here on the left -- am I 8 

## saying that right? No, Bill you are saying it the 9 

## other way aren't you? 10 

## MR. SMILEY: Well either way. 11 

## MR. WOLF: Either way. Well let's take a 12 

## -- I'm trying to think of an example here. If it 13 

## tests better in this configuration but then I take a 14 

## fan that's say less efficient than this fan on the 15 

## right and I put it in here and when I test it in this 16 

## configuration it is actually worse in the installed 17 

## or component -- right the extended equipment we have 18 

## created an unintended consequence of taking a fan 19 

## that's not efficient standing alone or it's deficient 20 

## standing alone but then making it less efficient over 21 

## here so again you are just trying to prevent an 22 

## unintended consequence that we don't know. Again weASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## are speculating, we know that that condition exists, 2 

## we just don't know how prevalent it is. 3 

## MR. FINE: Does anyone have an opinion as 4 

## to what the data says? How likely is it that we 5 

## don't have data sets or information to show whether 6 

## this is sort of a hypothetical problem or a real one? 7 

## MR. HAUER: I would have an opinion. 8 

## Armin Hauer. So this is apparently an air system 9 

## right there's no heat coming through or anything 10 

## happening here and its physics would defeat the idea 11 

## that if you put the louvers to it that the system 12 

## becomes more efficient is just not possible. 13 

## But then Bill's approach where he says 14 

## okay in the heat exchange application, if you have an 15 

## unfortunate inlet condition it's okay you put the 16 

## more efficient fan in and then the overall efficiency 17 

## drops, this might be possible if you have system 18 

## effects. But here in this example it is impossible. 19 

## MR. WOLF: Greg? 20 

## MR. WAGNER: Greg Wagner, Morrison. I 21 

## would agree with what Armin just said but you asked 22 

## what percentage well virtually all of the embeddedASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## products have a size constraint limitation put upon 2 

## them by real world constraints i.e. building codes and 3 

## other things require certain space and construction 4 

## where you have a big range of buildings that exist 5 

## today and they all have limitations on the space 6 

## available. 7 

## So any time you put space constraints on a 8 

## product you are limiting the ability to achieve 9 

## infinite efficiency if you will because you are 10 

## constrained by that space. 11 

## MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. I think one 12 

## of the things here that maybe we are talking around a 13 

## little bit is when we are comparing fan efficiencies 14 

## and the fan efficiency would drive us to a different 15 

## type fan, that's for the applicability part of an 16 

## embedded product to me would really matter. If I'm 17 

## doing an unhoused plenum fan and I put a more 18 

## efficient, let's say with same physical size to 19 

## conform with my space constraint span in there most 20 

## likely I am going to get more efficiency out of that 21 

## combination likely. 22 

## But if I've got to switch to a houseASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## centrifugal fan from an unhoused plenum fan driven 2 

## just by a test configuration number because I have to 3 

## meet some efficiency level, an application that could 4 

## very well give me -- cause the end product to consume 5 

## more energy. 6 

## MR. WOLF: Okay so this is Mike again. 7 

## And Ashley do you want to go -- so I guess what we 8 

## are back to I think, I'll jump in here is what's in 9 

## the NODA today and again what we are talking about 10 

## here AMCA has been kicking around for several months 11 

## and it's a difficult topic. But to bring in a new 12 

## term that hasn't been used before today, at least I 13 

## haven't heard it is if we were to define for purpose 14 

## of the regulation and what falls into the scope here, 15 

## something called a testable configuration you know, 16 

## if the basic level that we can -- the housing, the 17 

## impeller, the drive and the housing and you know we 18 

## might even need to tweak those definitions but it is 19 

## basically a stand-alone thing that can move air, can 20 

## we get to some comfort level that for regulation 21 

## purposes that's our definition of a regulated fan. 22 

## And I guess Tom I am kind of going toASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## defer to you. I know it's difficult -- how do you 2 

## move forward without getting somewhat specific on 3 

## these questions? We don't want to back anybody into 4 

## a corner to agree to something and then come back and 5 

## say oh yeah but, I guess I don't know to what level 6 

## details, but I will defer to somebody that has been 7 

## through this process before if they want to step in. 8 

## MR. CATANIA: Well you know my sense is 9 

## that I know when the AMCA discussions I don't think 10 

## we got into as much depth on the significance of 11 

## housings that have split functions, especially with 12 

## regard to the configuration in which it is tested. 13 

## So I'm a little nervous and I'm looking to 14 

## some of the other AMCA members here on this as to 15 

## whether or not we really have you know, we are pretty 16 

## confident in the definitions that have probably 17 

## already been submitted, but this is kind of a new 18 

## variation that I think there may be enough 19 

## variability, especially with regard to how that 20 

## product might be tested that we might have to caucus. 21 

## MR. HARTLEIN: You know a thought I would 22 

## add to that, I'm sorry Laura did you want to goASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## first, I think your card was up first. 2 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: It was but I want -- 3 

## you know I have had a little trouble following the 4 

## discussions this morning when it was just based on 5 

## card up so I was just sort of hoping that we could 6 

## initiate discussion around a topic or moving on, so 7 

## if your point is related to this -- 8 

## MR. HARTLEIN: It's a contribution to 9 

## Tom's point. 10 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Then you go ahead. 11 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Okay so what I was going to 12 

## say was that we are doing things in slightly 13 

## different order than we did in the AMCA room. So in 14 

## the AMCA room we had a philosophical understanding of 15 

## what likely regulation levels would look like. 16 

## Frankly that got us -- this is Dan Hartlein by the 17 

## way, sorry about that. 18 

## That got us substantially out of the weeds 19 

## because many, many, many circumstances that we are 20 

## talking about fall away with a reasonable setting of 21 

## that target efficiency. If the number that we are 22 

## shooting for is to be regulated, a fan has to hit aASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## total efficiency of 84%, there's a lot of people in 2 

## this room that are going to say "oh crap, the weeds 3 

## really matter." 4 

## If the target that we are looking at is 5 

## somewhere just north of 50, there's going to be a lot 6 

## of people in the room that say you know, okay let's 7 

## get this done, right? It's easy. So it's a point of 8 

## question as to whether or not what we are making, 9 

## what we are doing much, much more difficult because 10 

## of the order that we are trying to skin this cat. 11 

## So I just raise that as an open question 12 

## to everything. It would feel differently I think, a 13 

## lot of these discussions don't matter if the level is 14 

## set appropriately and they do matter if they are not, 15 

## so. 16 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Actually now my point 17 

## is pretty relevant. This is Laura Petrillo Groh from 18 

## AHRI. So you have been discussing levels and that 19 

## helped you clarify things but I think from our 20 

## perspective other than looking at certification 21 

## reporting which becomes increasingly burdensome when 22 

## you are -- when you don't know what configuration orASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## how many configurations that you have to report, just 2 

## putting it out there. 3 

## Enforcement is our difficulty because 4 

## right now we are talking about fans. But when we are 5 

## talking about a fan embedded in a unit and you test 6 

## that unit with the fan in it, it is not the fan that 7 

## fails, it is the entire unit. When you are looking 8 

## at -- when cross referencing that with basic models 9 

## of regulated products, what then comes off the market 10 

## and why -- there are some fundamental problems we are 11 

## having I think with this and I don't know if a level 12 

## would solve that. 13 

## MR. WOLF: This is Mike Wolf. Let me try 14 

## to rephrase what you just said Laura is and I'm sorry 15 

## I keep going back and trying to simplify this. If we 16 

## look at stand-alone fans and we kind of give the 17 

## thumbs up that these categories cover stand-alone 18 

## fans, and I'm going to guess that you know, maybe 19 

## several of these categories, maybe unhoused, 20 

## centrifugal you know, some of these centrifugal 21 

## styles over here on the left side get used in AHRI 22 

## products.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## So one of the potential fears here is if 2 

## we set the -- if we set the regulation at such a 3 

## point that these fans get taken off of the market, 4 

## they are no longer available for you guys and you 5 

## know in the embedded fan and the regulated or 6 

## unregulated product that can create a real world of 7 

## hurt, correct? And that would be a big problem. 8 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I think yeah, anytime 9 

## you are eliminating utility of any product it is 10 

## going to impact someone. In this case if you 11 

## eliminate the utility of a housed centrifugal forward 12 

## bladed fan, you've impacted a lot of the AHRI 13 

## members. 14 

## MR. WOLF: So I guess I'm going to kind of 15 

## defer to Ashley on this. You know when I came into 16 

## this and we probably all came into this with some 17 

## thought of where we might end up at the end of today, 18 

## I don't know if we are even going to be close to 19 

## where I thought but you know I was of the philosophy 20 

## or desire that we could agree on stand-alone fans. 21 

## So again the stuff that is in this picture 22 

## okay, and you know from what I have heard here so farASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## we don't have maybe the data we need to evaluate 2 

## embedded fans in regulated or unregulated products 3 

## and there's maybe a question of utility, there's just 4 

## a lot of questions that need to be answered. I'm 5 

## just trying to figure out how we can move the 6 

## discussion forward without getting in those weeds. 7 

## And again I mean AMCA has speculated on a 8 

## lot of this stuff over the past several months and I 9 

## know there is a concern that we don't want to agree 10 

## to something in number one if it is going to impact 11 

## number three, so Tom you look like you want to say 12 

## something. 13 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Before that I would 14 

## like to propose that we caucus for a few minutes. 15 

## MR. WOLF: Okay. 16 

## MR. CATANIA: Can I give you something 17 

## Laura that you want that is directly related probably 18 

## to some of this caucusing and stuff that you may be 19 

## doing, I'm just guessing but I wanted to bring this 20 

## up kind of at the beginning. 21 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Sure. 22 

## MR. CATANIA: Tom Catania, AMCA. TheASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## general comment I would make about this is that this 2 

## process to some extent gives this industry 3 

## collectively the opportunity to make regulation in 4 

## this area as smart and as balanced as it possibly 5 

## could be. Now the other option is for you know, 6 

## somehow Ashley and John to wake up tomorrow morning 7 

## and say you know what I think we will try another 8 

## product for a few years and then we will come back to 9 

## this one, it's very complicated. 10 

## I don't think that's an option. So -- and 11 

## I think that the Department, you know, a very good 12 

## argument could be made that the Department has the 13 

## authority to just proceed ahead in this area and you 14 

## know, people are free to challenge it in whole or in 15 

## part including in part with like you can't go after 16 

## embedded fans in regulated products. 17 

## But my suggestion, you know I also have 18 

## the infirmity of being a lawyer so I have to advise 19 

## companies on strategies like this and I rarely kind 20 

## of bet my reputation and my advice on winning in 21 

## court on issues like this, especially when it comes 22 

## to discretion of administrative agencies of theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## government. 2 

## And so my thought would be that these 3 

## extremely challenging questions that everybody in the 4 

## industry faces is something we have to sort of 5 

## embrace and say these problems are here, there are 6 

## issues and we are going to propose a series of 7 

## solutions that are data driven and we are going to 8 

## figure out how to do this. 9 

## Because we have always got the right to 10 

## reserve -- we always have the right reserved at the 11 

## end to vote no at the end of this process and say you 12 

## know we gave it that old college try where we ended 13 

## up was unacceptable, we just can't vote for it and if 14 

## our only remedy is the courts afterwards well that's 15 

## the way it goes. 16 

## But I think that the attitude we all ought 17 

## to collectively have going forward is to say that we 18 

## are going to try to make this thing the best 19 

## regulation it possibly could be because if we don't 20 

## the Department I think feels compelled to act and it 21 

## will and we'll get -- there will be a rule, there 22 

## will be a notice of proposed rule one way or anotherASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## so that's where my head is at. 2 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay so how long do people 3 

## thing it makes sense -- 30 minutes is the request? 4 

## Any objections to 30 minutes? 5 

## (Off mic discussion about break time 6 

## talking). 7 

## (Recess) 8 

## MR. BOSWELL: I was just in the other room 9 

## and I asked them to wrap up their conversations 10 

## within the next four or five minutes and rejoin us, 11 

## so hopefully we will be starting soon. 12 

## MR. BOSWELL: I have been in there and I 13 

## have asked them to wrap up in about five minutes and 14 

## it has not been quite five minutes so they should be 15 

## in any minute. 16 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay so it looks like we 17 

## have everyone back. So I guess and I think I 18 

## mentioned this to several people -- what I think it 19 

## might make sense to do at this point is to hear from 20 

## each of the kind of self-identified sub-groups 21 

## within the room in terms of where their thinking is 22 

## at this point, where they would like to see us by theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## end of the day which is only about an hour away and 2 

## where they would like to kind of options for moving 3 

## forward. 4 

## And so Laura -- and I didn't say this to 5 

## you since you had been the one who requested the 6 

## caucus could I call on you to kind of start that 7 

## discussion and I'm assuming there might be lots of 8 

## reactions to what people are hearing but I would like 9 

## to get through hearing from each group before we 10 

## break into general discussion, okay? 11 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Sure thanks this is 12 

## Laura Petrillo Groh from AHRI. We had a -- you know 13 

## pretty lengthy discussion back at the luggage closet. 14 

## MR. SMILEY: And it's weedy in there. 15 

## MR. SHEARD: You have come out of the 16 

## closet then. 17 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Yes, yes and now we 18 

## are here. And you know there's been a lot of 19 

## discussion thrown around but we do thoroughly intend 20 

## to collect data. I want to make that clear so that 21 

## we can look at what is going on in our products. 22 

## It's data collection andASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### trying to look at the situation as closely as possible 2 

### and to what's already been done. I think it would very 3 

### much help if we were able to have access to the data 4 

### collection template with calculations but no data 5 

### that AMCA has used to collect data for their 6 

### database. 7 

### And we have a few questions -- you know we 8 

### have a few questions about some of the assumptions 9 

### that were made to collect that data so you know we 10 

### could either see what's reasonable for our products 11 

### or you know when you use it what would be more 12 

### reasonable for our products. And there was a lot of 13 

### discussion about housed versus unhoused fans and 14 

### testable configurations that we didn't really get 15 

### into and we would like to hear more about, because it 16 

### sounds like there has been some discussion about this 17 

### between AMCA members and the advocates that we 18 

### haven't been party to that might help to bring us up 19 

### to speed. 20 

### So did I miss anything members of my 21 

### caucus? So that's how we would like to use the last 22 

### hour but I understand there are other parties, thankASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### 1 

## you. 2 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay so and I didn't really 3 

## ask the other groups if they had a spokesperson that 4 

## they wanted to identify so the group that I kind of 5 

## think of as around AMCA is there somebody that would 6 

## like to speak for that group? 7 

## MR. CATANIA: Tom Catania, yeah I can 8 

## probably handle this one at least with respect to 9 

## those two questions. I think in general concept 10 

## certainly sharing a template for collection of data 11 

## is probably not going to be an issue among the AMCA 12 

## members. I think that there might be sort of a 13 

## little formal requirement to the extent that there 14 

## were representations made to individual AMCA members 15 

## about the confidentiality, the data and so forth, I 16 

## think we just have to act consistently with that, 17 

## Dan? 18 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Yes I just wanted to 19 

## comment. This is Dan Hartlein. We also shared I 20 

## believe that data with the DOE confidentially. I 21 

## mean there's some pretty valuable U.S. market 22 

## information represented there.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MS. PETRILLO GROH: We weren't asking for 2 

## the data. 3 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Okay great. 4 

## MR. SMILEY: (Off mic). 5 

## MR. CATANIA: So as I said my assumption 6 

## is other than complying with any agreement with the 7 

## data providers that to the extent something is going 8 

## to be disclosed, not necessarily even about the data 9 

## itself but about the nature of how it is provided I 10 

## think that AMCA will have to follow whatever it 11 

## committed to do but you know in concept I don't think 12 

## any of the other members see an issue with that. 13 

## And on the second question I think it's 14 

## fair to say that even among the AMCA members issues 15 

## around the housing and so forth were not discussed as 16 

## robustly as we have started to get into them here so 17 

## we might even have to have some of our own internal 18 

## conversations about that. I don't see it as a bad -- 19 

## I don't think it would have fundamentally changed the 20 

## analysis on you know the broad categories but we 21 

## actually would want to have some internal 22 

## conversations about that as well.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## Do you know I think -- I wouldn't say we 2 

## have a concern that we share but we have 3 

## conversations of our own to have. 4 

## MR. BUBLITZ: Sorry I missed it, Mark 5 

## Bublitz here, New York Blower Company. I think this 6 

## idea of a minimal test configuration came out of 7 

## today or yesterday so we need to wrestle with it but 8 

## I don't believe there was a previous conversation 9 

## with the advocates related to that subject, I just 10 

## want to make that clear, thanks. 11 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay, Ashley do you want to 12 

## speak? 13 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh I can take -- we can 14 

## take complete credit for this whole testable convert, 15 

## this configuration thing. It was not one that DOE 16 

## had ever heard, it was something DOE completely made 17 

## up in terms of terms and we are just trying to make 18 

## sense of a very complex market and then DOE 19 

## regulatory world and so we just make up things -- 20 

## make up terms for these categories. 21 

## Nevertheless I think you kind of hit the 22 

## nail on the head and some of the discussions we haveASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## had just like the sidebar discussions, we need to 2 

## translate some of these I think categories -- in my 3 

## mind, into what we call a DOE regulatory approach. 4 

## And what that really means is definitions, equipment 5 

## classes and then testable configuration. 6 

## What does that mean, what parts of the 7 

## unit would you put together for each of those what I 8 

## will call categories, equipment classes? I'm not 9 

## sure that all of the categories will remain the same. 10 

## I don't think we are changing the scope of those 11 

## categories per se but we may be combining some 12 

## because of the way our equipment class regulations 13 

## work, so it's more of a translation of the -- what I 14 

## would call advocate AMCA approach to date to what 15 

## that means in DOE's regulatory context and then 16 

## perhaps talking a little bit more in detail of what 17 

## does that testable configuration mean for each of 18 

## those what I will call ultimately equipment classes. 19 

## And I think once we do that DOE is going 20 

## to take it upon itself to give it a first round. We 21 

## are going to circulate that to the group well in 22 

## advance of the next meeting. We can even go back andASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## forth by email or if you guys like share point I can 2 

## get a share point site, whatever you want to do. 3 

## But I think that will help iron out some 4 

## of the details, it's not going to be everything but I 5 

## think the idea would be to figure out some of those 6 

## finer details and then get together again at the next 7 

## meeting and really decide can we move forward from 8 

## here. Are we at a place where we can all agree that 9 

## for these equipment classes, for this testable 10 

## configuration we can strike a deal for these and move 11 

## forward talking about more detailed versions -- more 12 

## details about what the regs -- how the regs would be 13 

## structured in terms of test procedures and levels. 14 

## That's not to say there won't be ongoing 15 

## discussions for products that may be outside of those 16 

## original equipment classes, DOE is not ready to 17 

## forego those yet, but I think at the very least we 18 

## need to find a subset of the group that we can 19 

## actually make some progress on and make progress. 20 

## Because the last thing that I want to do is go back 21 

## to ASRAC three months from now and say, "yeah we are 22 

## still talking about what's in the scope". They areASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## going to say DOE write your NOPR. 2 

## You know, that's not the intent of this 3 

## and that's not why we are all here and that's not 4 

## what DOE wants, let's be clear. DOE formed this 5 

## Committee to do just that. You guys help us write a 6 

## regulation -- a meaningful regulation for a very 7 

## complex market and we mean that wholeheartedly. 8 

## So that's my -- that's my pitch. I don't 9 

## know -- you guys should react to that, that's my best 10 

## pitch so let us define some definitions, equipment 11 

## classes, and this testable configuration idea or 12 

## Ashley, whatever you want to call it and let you 13 

## react to that a little bit. 14 

## And I think that might help with some 15 

## things, but I really think it needs you know the 16 

## Committee as a whole needs to be open-minded. 17 

## Without that we are really not going to make any 18 

## progress and I would hate for that to be the case. 19 

## MR. FERSTROM: And this is Gary I just 20 

## wanted to make a quick comment to the extent -- this 21 

## is great news, to the extent the template is shared 22 

## and AHRI collects some data, that's wonderful. IASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## would encourage some attention to smaller equipment 2 

## because when we the environmental folks opened our 3 

## discussion with the fans people, we had in mind a 4 

## lower limit and if we are going to consider fans that 5 

## are utilized in unitary equipment, maybe we might 6 

## want to look at equipment below one horsepower. 7 

## MR. BOSWELL: Laura? 8 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Responding to Ashley. 9 

## Thank you, I think that looking at it in terms of the 10 

## enforcement or DOE's enforcement language would be 11 

## very helpful. Do you think that -- so the next 12 

## meeting is on the 18th and 19th of May, I think that 13 

## would help facilitate a lot of our conversations with 14 

## our members and help us get to a point where we might 15 

## be able to bring more proposals forward to the table. 16 

## Do you think we would be able to do that before that 17 

## next meeting? 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think DOE is going to 19 

## plan on circulating something next week, it's not 20 

## going to be the end of next week, it's probably not 21 

## going to be Monday given that today is Thursday. I 22 

## think it is reasonable that we will probablyASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## circulate something -- give us a couple of days but 2 

## midweek right. 3 

## Now to the extent that you can get your 4 

## members to get on the phone and start talking, I 5 

## expect some feedback. Now whether you want to bring 6 

## the feedback back to the meeting, whether people want 7 

## to write back, I expect a lot of questions. Because 8 

## the reality is we are going to use the DOE language 9 

## and we are going to try to explain to you what that 10 

## means, but it is just that, it is DOE language. 11 

## And unless you are engrossed in it like I 12 

## am every day, it doesn't mean a whole lot to the real 13 

## world. So it will come to mean a lot too, over time 14 

## but like I said you should look at that as not 15 

## necessarily DOE's opinion, that's going to be DOE's 16 

## translation of where we are today and what this will 17 

## look like in a reg and kind of some issues that we 18 

## see, there may be some questions. 19 

## Honestly I think testable configuration is 20 

## something that we are going to need some input from 21 

## the manufacturers and so we will give it our best 22 

## guess but the fan guys, the OEM, the embedded guys --ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## you guys are the experts so you should feel free to 2 

## chime in with feedback, that's what this process is 3 

## all about. 4 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Tom, do you think that 5 

## we might be able to get the spreadsheet before 6 

## Wednesday of next week? 7 

## MR. CATANIA: Yeah my assumption is that 8 

## we can get whatever releases we need from the members 9 

## very promptly so I'm just not anticipating any 10 

## significant issues there. The other thing that I 11 

## would say is that -- is one of the -- this is Tom 12 

## Catania of AMCA by the way, one of the other 13 

## admonishments I would give to all of us here, and 14 

## this is such a challenge but the phrase that keeps 15 

## coming to mind to me and we have referred to it as 16 

## the weeds sometimes, but I think you know, we have to 17 

## avoid making the perfect the enemy of the good here. 18 

## And we've all -- those of us who have been 19 

## involved with product regulation over an extended 20 

## period of time have seen all the imperfections that 21 

## emerge over time, but the regulation of a product 22 

## category typically doesn't start there and I wouldn'tASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## say that we should expect a loose initial regulation, 2 

## but I think we can make it almost impossible for 3 

## ourselves to get to the goal line if we keep finding 4 

## that isolated example after example where we can't 5 

## quite figure out how that particular configuration 6 

## exactly is going to be tested. 7 

## So we are going to have to all challenge 8 

## ourselves to figure out how good is good enough in 9 

## some of these areas and then know that over time as 10 

## this becomes effective, we will fix it. The other 11 

## thing to keep in mind is that there would be an 12 

## extended period of time between any effective date of 13 

## this regulation and this implementation date too. 14 

## I'm not encouraging us not to be diligent 15 

## or careful or to be sloppy in any respect but we will 16 

## just not get done if we constantly focus on trying to 17 

## achieve the perfect regulation right out of the gate. 18 

## MR. BOSWELL: Just the one thing that I 19 

## kind of would add on to Tom's comments is I think you 20 

## remember where we started off yesterday talking about 21 

## the consensus process was part of that process is 22 

## usually a recognition that you don't end up with yourASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## ideal but what you are striving for is something that 2 

## everyone can live with and you are trying to reach 3 

## consensus amongst a very diverse group in terms of 4 

## what level you need for everyone to live with and 5 

## move forward with, which I think is consistent with 6 

## what Tom was just saying. So I'll add that as my 7 

## infomercial. 8 

## Other thoughts? 9 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: I think it also might 10 

## be beneficial to go through the metric in more detail 11 

## as it was proposed in the second NOPR. 12 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Now? 13 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Sure. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We have a slide on it, you 15 

## know are we talking really metric because the metric 16 

## is just a function of you know, the fan with I would 17 

## say the motor and controls -- it's a function of 18 

## those green pictures that were on the first slide. 19 

## It's really what I would call a system based metric, 20 

## I mean that's all the metric is. 21 

## And I'm not sure the metric is so much of 22 

## the issue as the regulatory approach -- at least whatASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## I would call that. But what is it exactly that you 2 

## would like to talk about with regards to the metric? 3 

## MS. PETROLLO GROH: There has been you 4 

## know discussion of several different metrics and you 5 

## know, whether it is the FEI, it's in this or the PBER 6 

## which means the same thing as -- and I don't know 7 

## just knowing a little bit more might help us be able 8 

## to avoid some of the -- it's more about how the 9 

## testing would work that you are looking at that. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm going to do this in 11 

## a high level type thing I think at this point and 12 

## perhaps I'm going to do it mainly based on pumps. 13 

## But part of this is that I think we will work through 14 

## some of these finer details and I think they may be a 15 

## little bit different for -- depending on which 16 

## category we end up kind of talking about but you know 17 

## the way we structure this was more of a system based 18 

## type metric. 19 

## Now we have moved to something of like an 20 

## index -- indexing, which is what we did for pumps. 21 

## I'm not sure that's a foregone conclusion at this 22 

## point we should have that discussion when we getASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## there about whether the index is the right way to go 2 

## or we should just keep it as like more of a metric or 3 

## a more conventional type metric I would say, you can 4 

## feel free to add to any of this if you would like, if 5 

## you want to, do you want to plug it in I don't know, 6 

## do you want to use this or no? The next time right? 7 

## MR. JASINSKI: (Off mic) But I can kind of 8 

## present them as -- 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fine. 10 

## MR. JASINSKI: This is Sam Jasinski from 11 

## Navigant Consulting and Sanaee feel free to jump in 12 

## if I mischaracterize anything. But essentially the 13 

## index that Ashley was referring to is like she said 14 

## something we took from pumps, but it is essentially 15 

## the major factors in that are an energy consumption 16 

## metric over a standard -- a target energy 17 

## consumption. 18 

## And the energy consumption which AMCA and 19 

## the advocates presented as PBER is equivalent to what 20 

## we were calling FER in the second, the most recent 21 

## NODA that was published. And FER is -- 22 

## UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: FEI.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## MR. JASINSKI: Yes but one of the factors 2 

## used to calculate FEI was FER which is equivalent to 3 

## the PBER which no longer exists. Anyway so ignoring 4 

## -- 5 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: This is why this metric 6 

## discussion -- 7 

## MR. JASINSKI: Right so ignoring the index 8 

## for a second, FER is simply a function of the flow 9 

## and pressure over the fan efficiency, transmission 10 

## efficiency, but it also accounts for driver losses 11 

## and control losses which allows for a wire to air 12 

## metric. 13 

## MS. IYAMA: So in very simplistic terms it 14 

## is just your electrical input power at a specific flow 15 

## end pressure point, that's all and then compared to a 16 

## -- 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's for discussion 18 

## right, it's whether we index against the standard or 19 

## not. Really that's a division. 20 

## MR. JASINSKI: Right and the only other 21 

## thing I would add is that the metric allows for 22 

## multiple scenarios depending upon which of theASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## components we have identified are there so you can 2 

## use default values or test values to get to that. 3 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: So this is the one thing I 4 

## think Dan eluded to in his beginning, some of the 5 

## talk maybe at the beginning and something we did in 6 

## pumps and perhaps a good exercise before the next 7 

## meeting is to take a look at pumps because what we 8 

## did there is if you don't have certain components 9 

## that you would need for the full system, we would 10 

## provide you with what I would call nominal values for 11 

## you to be able to build up your full system metric 12 

## from there. 13 

## And those nominal values are based on 14 

## something like Dan said, in pumps we develop them 15 

## based on a methodology that was more or less agreed 16 

## to in the working group but it has also been tweaked 17 

## in response to some things we know coming down the 18 

## pike with regards to motor drive types. The motor 19 

## stuff is based on our motor regs and scaling off of 20 

## those for those that don't know motors. 21 

## I would envision a similar thing happening 22 

## here, that's what we have done. You can also forASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## specific references to fan stuff, look at the AMCA 2 

## white paper, that really describes it and I think 3 

## that's what is implemented in the NODA. 4 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: A quick question, 5 

## Laura Petrillo Groh from AHRI again. So I think and 6 

## please do so if I'm wrong, the goal for the pumps 7 

## regulation was to improve the hydraulic efficiency of 8 

## -- 9 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: The goal of the pumps 10 

## regulation was to improve the efficiency of the pump 11 

## as defined by the working group, which is more broad 12 

## than that. Now what they ultimately agreed to in 13 

## terms of levels is reflective of something you can 14 

## get by just improving the hydraulic efficiency. 15 

## But I wouldn't say that's necessarily -- I 16 

## mean the goal was to -- if somebody wanted to do a -- 17 

## there's nothing in the level that says you have to do 18 

## it by hydraulic efficiency, let's put it that way. 19 

## If somebody wanted to do a wire to water test and 20 

## needed by different motors or a different control 21 

## system, they could very well do that. 22 

## They ultimately agreed to a level forASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## which DOE has subsequently proposed wholesale which 2 

## could be met by just increasing the hydraulic 3 

## efficiency, let's put it that way, I think that's the 4 

## better way to say it. 5 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Thank you. 6 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: But it also allowed a 7 

## system based metric. System based representations, 8 

## system based label for which they ultimately wanted 9 

## and system based incentive programs and I think 10 

## that's important -- I can't speak for the fan 11 

## industry, but I think that's important to the fan 12 

## industry as well. 13 

## That's like the high level metric stuff. 14 

## I mean I will expect that we will get into the 15 

## nitty-gritty details but if we can't get passed 16 

## scope, we can't really get to metric and test 17 

## procedure and levels so we are hoping that we can 18 

## really get to the scope equipment classes, testable 19 

## configuration into a happy place to move forward with 20 

## some of the more finer details of the test procedure, 21 

## the metric and then ultimately allow us to run 22 

## different scenarios for you guys to consider in yourASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## negotiating of standards. 2 

## MR. CATANIA: So I have a question, Tom 3 

## Catania, AMCA. In the absence of you know, an 4 

## agreement on scope or a successful outcome of this 5 

## process would it be fair to say that DOE would look 6 

## at something similar to this methodology to address 7 

## what it saw as the scope of its authorized regulation 8 

## and sort of a foundation of how it would approach the 9 

## issue if left to its own device? 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think I can 11 

## pre-judge the outcome of a proposed rule. 12 

## Unfortunately I think what you have seen in the NODA 13 

## is that DOE has implemented a regulatory approach 14 

## that it thinks is workable with the DOE regulations 15 

## and the statutory limitations as they exist. Now 16 

## with that being said, there has been some feedback at 17 

## this working group and to the extent people submit, 18 

## you know, we didn't ask for specific comments on the 19 

## NODA per se, we just said bring them to the working 20 

## group, both members of the public and otherwise. 21 

## To the extent the discussions here would 22 

## influence that but I think you have seen us issuingASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## the NODA is an indication but at least what we have 2 

## done in the NODA the approach is something that we 3 

## would consider as informing our proposal as a 4 

## regulatory approach, but I can't prejudge the outcome 5 

## of a NOPR. 6 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: Ashley the other thing 7 

## that we would ask you to start doing would be to 8 

## start revising the LCC and all the accompanying 9 

## analysis to include the impact on the HVAC OEM's. 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: And I think we are more 11 

## than happy to start working on those types of 12 

## revisions. We are going to need some data for you 13 

## guys and some discussions about what that would look 14 

## like in order to do that. 15 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: What kind of data do 16 

## you need for that? 17 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We will get that. Let's 18 

## start with data number 1, data request number 1. 19 

## There's two -- 20 

## MS. PETRILLO GROH: There will be two 21 

## different groups working on it though I think it 22 

## might be beneficial to work on it side by side.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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### MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, that's fine. 2 

### MS. PETRILLO GROH: Okay we can work 3 

### offline on that I suppose. 4 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 5 

### MS. PETRILLO GROH: Okay. 6 

### MS. ARMSTRONG: So as we kind of come to a 7 

### close of the first couple of days, I mean it's 4:15 8 

### we do have 45 minutes to the extent we want to 9 

### discuss -- I do think DOE needs a little bit of time, 10 

### more than ad hoc trying to figure out this testable 11 

### configuration thing any further, but is there 12 

### anything else anybody wants to discuss while we are 13 

### here and together before the next meeting? 14 

### One thing I will ask that I mentioned to a 15 

### couple of people just as I was walking by, if you 16 

### haven't looked at the NODA, please look at the NODA. 17 

### If you haven't looked at the results, please look at 18 

### the results, the data, the assumptions. If there is 19 

### anything that you think we should revise, know thatthe next 20 

### meeting would be the time to bring that to the table 21 

### so that we could get working on another set of data 22 

### and analysis to help the committee.ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## These analyses can't be run overnight 2 

## unfortunately so happy to revise them based on 3 

## feedback by some additional data, based on additional 4 

## scope, but please take a look at them. 5 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, Twin City 6 

## Fan. Ashley just a quick question -- I wonder if 7 

## maybe that your Navigant team could comment on this 8 

## but we had put -- we had differentiated between total 9 

## pressure and static pressure and I noticed in the 10 

## NODA that you don't. I just wonder if you could 11 

## maybe pontificate or give us a little of insight as 12 

## to why that was done, what your thinking was around 13 

## that. 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead. Do you want to? 15 

## MS. IYAMA: Can I think for a minute? 16 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: You can think. 17 

## MS. IYAMA: I mean okay, this is Sanaee. 18 

## MR. HARTLEIN: We can park that for the 19 

## next meeting if you want? 20 

## MS. IYAMA: No I think in terms of the 21 

## analysis, anything could be analyzed. In terms of 22 

## the metric I think there is still not really a goodASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## understanding of the justification for using static 2 

## pressure for an un-ducted fan. It seems like most of 3 

## the concerns we have heard from the industry were 4 

## based on selection practices and installation 5 

## practices rather than the performance of the product 6 

## itself. 7 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: I think from DOE's point 8 

## of view, it is really important to have a metric that 9 

## can be comparable across classes. So this is going 10 

## to become important when we talk about equipment 11 

## classes and structure and to the extent the 12 

## difference in pressure results in unequitable 13 

## readings across classes I think we have some 14 

## concerns. 15 

## That's not to say that levels can't be set 16 

## at different -- meaningful for different classes -- 17 

## that's a completely different conversation. I think 18 

## generally speaking though let's put it this way -- we 19 

## haven't been convinced that from a regulatory 20 

## standpoint from a regulatory metric standpoint that 21 

## there needs to be that differentiation in pressures. 22 

## You don't have to answer it now, but youASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## can. 2 

## MR. WOLF: This is Mike Wolf, Greenheck. 3 

## I will try to answer and others feel free to jump in 4 

## here. I think the reason you know, part of it is the 5 

## selection practice that is out there but the other 6 

## part of it, to use the terms that we have kind of 7 

## started to use today, testable configuration -- if 8 

## you get an un-ducted fan, an un-ducted test 9 

## configuration, you don't have the benefit of the 10 

## velocity pressure at the outlet of that fan and 11 

## therefore you have to use static pressure unless you 12 

## make assumptions or you include some calculation 13 

## regarding the outlet area of the fan. 14 

## And now if we want to start trying to 15 

## define outlet area of the fan maybe we can back up 16 

## and talk about proxy votes and all of that good stuff 17 

## and again that was a joke for the record because that 18 

## question becomes almost as complex as you know, it 19 

## seems like it should be simple but it is not, so that 20 

## was the reason we decided to go ducted and un-ducted 21 

## and use a -- I'm sorry Greg go ahead. 22 

## MR. WAGNER: I would like to give a simpleASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## example it helps with that discussion and then this 2 

## came from one of your colleagues actually. When you 3 

## look at an axial fan the external air flow coming 4 

## from it, if I have an 18 inch or I have a 30 inch, 5 

## the velocity pressure is going to look totally 6 

## different between the two of them and it is going to 7 

## look like that 18 inches is much more effective even 8 

## though it is actually less effective in most cases 9 

## than a 30 inch one in terms of the energy 10 

## consumption. 11 

## But because you use the total pressure, 12 

## you count the velocity pressure, that component would 13 

## unnecessarily reward the 18 inch one. 14 

## MR. HARTLEIN: And Dan Hartlein. Quite 15 

## the contrary, I mean yes I agree. In addition to 16 

## that it actually leads to the unintended consequence 17 

## of using more energy as opposed to less so that 18 

## metric led to what we ran into in looking at total, 19 

## is that actually in those products quite often 20 

## resulted in the wrong decision being made from an 21 

## energy perspective so we would ask you to go back and 22 

## maybe look at that and if we need to put our ducksASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## back in a row and help with some more analysis, some 2 

## more data then we would be happy to do that I'm sure, 3 

## but that was the reason that we had to do it because 4 

## we could not escape the unintended consequence of the 5 

## wrong fan from an energy consumption perspective 6 

## actually becoming the selected fan, so it gave us the 7 

## wrong answer too often and we weren't anticipating 8 

## that. 9 

## I think when we embarked on it as well, we 10 

## were total, total, total until we ran into the 11 

## situation but we would be glad to maybe share some 12 

## more information there if it helps, okay. 13 

## MR. WOLF: I'm sorry Mike Wolf, can I just 14 

## piggy-back on this thing. We actually attempted in 15 

## our first pass at this to simplify it by just using 16 

## static pressure because we wanted to keep it simple 17 

## and to have a comparable across all products and we 18 

## ended up seeing that was not right either, so. 19 

## MR. BOSWELL: Armin? 20 

## MR. HAUER: It's Armin Hauer. On the 21 

## analysis of the second NODA I defined that the 22 

## engineers from Navigant found that AMCA 210 indicatesASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## that always the fan total pressure is determined 2 

## first and then static pressure is calculated. But we 3 

## -- now AMCA members, a few have realized that this is 4 

## not actually the case. Most usually it is the static 5 

## efficiency and static pressure that is measured and 6 

## then on occasion you go the extra step in determining 7 

## the total efficiency and total pressure. 8 

## So we are going to -- I put in a request 9 

## to change AMCA 210 to amend it and then the second 10 

## point regarding the NODA. I opened the big 11 

## spreadsheet that engineering analysis and there are 12 

## some missing links, it didn't open for me, I 13 

## downloaded it twice, it didn't open for me -- 14 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: We can check it out. 15 

## MR. HAUER: Thank you. 16 

## MR. BOSWELL: Ashley it sounded like you 17 

## were going to respond to what Mike had been saying. 18 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Well I'm not sure that we 19 

## are going to come to a resolution on this today. We 20 

## will go back and look at it. The NODA does it both 21 

## ways, so that's something to look at. We have 22 

## implemented ---ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## (Ms. Armstrong and Ms. IYAMA conferring) 2 

## So we have done it, the public versions 3 

## with the total pressure I have just been told we have 4 

## done it the other way if you guys want it for next 5 

## week we can have that for the meeting. With that 6 

## being said we should probably also make sure that we 7 

## are understanding that the data elements that we are 8 

## getting to pull are the actual data elements that we 9 

## thought we were -- at least pressure is pressure, 10 

## static is static, that kind of stuff. 11 

## But anyways, we can have those 12 

## discussions, I don't think that's an issue. 13 

## MR. HARTLEIN: Dan Hartlein, just to kind 14 

## of -- we 100% agree that we should can and will I'm 15 

## sure, I just want to you know put a little 16 

## exclamation point on that. This was really a 17 

## contentious point for us. It was a long, long hard 18 

## fought discussion with a lot of smart mind and 19 

## several PhD's in the room before we actually landed 20 

## on the fact that the reality was what we had to do 21 

## here was get the right answer from an energy savings 22 

## and that's what ultimately led us to where we wereASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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## so, but I'm sure that we can get to that with the 2 

## data that we have so. 3 

## MR. BOSWELL: Okay good, thank you. 4 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: Anything else that anybody 5 

## wants to bring up before the next slide? Oh you have 6 

## a card up? 7 

## Do you want to do closing remarks from the 8 

## podium? You did so well earlier. 9 

## MR. CATANIA: The last time he did that -- 10 

## MS. ARMSTRONG: For his own proposal. 11 

## Well I mean I think in closing we would just like to 12 

## thank you guys for coming for the past two days. 13 

## Some of the past two days has been more productive 14 

## than I think more enjoyable than others, but we are 15 

## making progress. We have some homework and hopefully 16 

## when we get together next time we can make even more 17 

## progress and actually move to having a scope and 18 

## having some definitions and having some workable 19 

## equipment classes and really starting to talk about 20 

## the details and move forward, okay, have safe travels 21 

## home. 22 

## (Adjourned)ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 231 **A a.m**  1:10 **Aaon** 2:18 6:1 113:16 131:22 133:6 138:5 142:11 156:7 157:10 163:4 165:7 176:12 181:13 190:11 **ability** 135:5 143:4 165:8 190:8 **able** 9:18 29:17 51:15 ,21 56:18 57:9 116:8 133:10 134:15 153:11 202:3 209:15 ,16 211:5 214:7 217:11 **absence** 220:3 **absolute** 60:11 ,22 **absolutely** 11:5 79:15 **Absorbed** 85:11 ,12 **abstain** 105:19 **abstained** 139:9,10 **abstaining** 139:11 **accept** 65:22 **acceptable** 96:22 120:7 **acceptably** 162:11 **accepted** 96:11 **access** 202:3 **accessories** 156:1 **accommodate** 17:18 **accompanying** 221:8 **accomplish** 26:12 129:14 **account** 29:22 32:12 51:8 56:14 **accounted** 75:3 **accounts** 216:10 **accurate** 36:18 49:11 128:18 138:8 **AccustiFLO** 50:6 **achieve** 136:4 190:8 212:17 **achievement** 136:11 **achieves** 31:15 **Acoustiflo** 2:16 5:14 **act** 199:20 203:16 **action** 55:3 **activity** 166:21 167:21 **actual** 16:20 58:18 58:21 118:8,8 142:21 160:1 229:8 **ad** 222:10 **adapts** 24:22 **add** 23:6 93:7 ,7 109:17 115:15 121:22 125:8 132:20 135:3 161:15 164:4 176:3 ,5 192:22 212:19 213:6 215:4 216:21 **add-on** 167:3 **added** 169:10 175:1 175:10 **adding** 171:17 174:3 ,19 176:1 **addition** 226:15 **additional** 32:9 37:15 38:7 52:19 62:2,2,6 63:2 72:2 174:3 ,19 223:3 ,3 **address** 23:10 32:1 44:3 58:13 104:8 140:2 166:17 175:4,5 220:6 **addressed** 32:21 37:11 105:20 **addresses** 32:13 **ADEM** 161:20 **Adjourned** 230:22 **administered** 22:19 **administrative** 198:22 **admonishments** 211:13 **advance** 71:9 206:22 **advanced** 121:6 **advancing** 121:14 **advantage** 20:7 29:5 ,15 **advice** 198:20 **advise** 198:18 **advocate** 206:14 **advocates** 27:18 96:6 97:8 116:20 123:10 186:14 202:17 205:9 215:19 **advocating** 35:1 ,2 47:13 **AEDM** 60:15 ,18 **aerospace** 97:21 **affect** 26:13 **afforded** 126:2

**afternoon** 91:13 104:7 ,22 **AFUE** 51:8 **agencies** 198:22 **aggregation** 80:22 **ago** 34:14 64:2 87:16 150:15 **agree** 10:16 78:3 90:16 113:15 115:17 116:8 121:18 122:17 138:15 ,18 139:14 140:10,18 142:12 148:1 ,7 ,15 154:2 154:3 155:17 168:5 ,6 169:8,16 170:22 175:11 182:5 189:21 192:4 196:20 197:9 207:8 226:15 229:14 **agreed** 181:3 217:15 218:12,22 **agreeing** 140:5 141:6 **agreement** 107:12 115:20 121:9 204:6 220:4 **agrees** 161:12 **AGS** 3:5 5:1 34:13 127:17 **ahead** 67:3 68:3 114:18 128:16 133:17 173:7 193:10 198:13 223:14 225:21 **Ahiruddh** 23:1 **AHRI** 3:3 22:11 28:17 29:11 30:7 30:9 36:13 48:7 52:6 70:10,22 71:8 74:20 92:5 93:14,15 98:22 122:20 123:15 ,16 123:18 144:12 148:4 194:18 195:21 196:12 201:12 208:22 218:5 **AHRI's** 23:12 **air** 3:12 5:11 6:8 9:13 24:19 27:1 52:11 55:12 57:2 57:7 ,8 69:14 92:2 93:18 115:3 145:7 156:10,16 157:22

159:14 160:1 ,3 162:12 165:9,16 166:10,20 167:15 167:21 168:8,13 168:21 169:1 170:1 176:5 184:16 188:6 189:8 191:19 216:11 226:3 **Air-Conditioning** 3:2 5:3 **Aircoil** 3:1 7:19 **airflow** 26:4 **airfoil** 135:9 **airport** 15:12 **align** 116:4 **allow** 162:15 163:11 219:21 **allowed** 137:12 219:6 **allows** 216:11 ,21 **altering** 114:2 **alternate** 7:19 20:6 60:16 106:13 **alternative** 42:10 82:11 ,14 161:19 162:4 165:2 **alternatives** 47:21 185:21 **AMCA** 7:11 16:21 17:15 ,17 21:22 37:17 39:7 49:1 53:12 62:10 63:13 68:20,21 69:6,12 70:9,15 75:21 ,21 95:21 96:11 106:17 116:20 117:12,20 120:21 123:9,15 128:22 134:9 141:1 162:16 165:12 166:5 179:12 191:10 192:9,14 193:13 ,14 197:7 197:22 202:5 ,17 203:5 ,11 ,14 204:10,14 206:14 211:12 215:18 218:1 220:3 227:22 228:3 ,9 **amend** 228:9 **America** 2:17 **American** 128:3 **amount** 23:14 24:2 24:6 38:19 48:20 171:14

**analogous** 51:17 **analogy** 50:22 **analyses** 83:2 223:1 **analysis** 24:4 29:13 30:3 36:13 ,18,21 36:22 37:1 ,7 ,10 37:15 ,18 38:8,8 43:1 ,2 45:8 58:3 62:11 76:17 81:12 83:1 91:1 204:20 221:9 222:22 223:21 227:1 ,21 228:11 **analyst** 23:19 **analyze** 64:2 65:14 **analyzed** 223:21 **analyzing** 64:8 **and/or** 48:14 154:10 **Aniruddh** 3:4 5:15 31:22 44:6 67:5 105:18 **Anniruddh** 46:13 **announce** 16:4 **annual** 32:11 50:11 **answer** 38:5 49:10 49:10 58:17 70:21 74:8 75:12 78:21 79:4 82:16 83:12 111:5 126:14 131:3 155:17 160:11 ,12 161:8 170:7 174:9,13 188:2 224:22 225:3 227:7 229:21 **answered** 197:4 **answering** 163:8 **answers** 64:5 71:21 72:1 83:14 164:1 **anticipate** 96:14 110:16 **anticipating** 92:7 211:9 227:7 **anybody** 12:9 74:20 104:7 131:3 140:6 181:20,22 192:3 222:12 230:4 **anytime** 196:8 **anyway** 13:21 106:3 159:21 216:3 **anyways** 229:11 **apart** 58:11 **apparently** 21:4 85:3 154:17 173:11 189:8ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 232 **Appeals** 6:16,18 7:13 ,15 **Appearances** 2:1 **appears** 40:17 64:16 **apples** 35:13 ,13 44:21 **appliance** 2:21 5:21 57:1 107:1 **applicability** 26:10 190:15 **applicable** 168:4 **application** 48:19 49:1 ,5 53:7 82:21 126:3 129:8,10,19 130:7 ,11 137:13 165:13 ,15 176:13 181:11 182:9,11 183:5 ,7 189:14 191:3 **applications** 28:21 52:20 145:6 146:20 187:13 **applied** 24:11 25:3 25:20 39:20 41:12 41:17 65:11 132:6 132:15 137:1 ,7 138:6 169:22 170:20 181:11 187:9 **apply** 41:16 126:11 134:17 159:5 162:7 164:7 180:3 183:14 **applying** 23:7 **approach** 29:6 62:16,18,18 87:18 110:6,7 189:13 206:3 ,14 213:22 220:8,13 221:2,4 **appropriate** 47:1 54:13 55:13 **appropriately** 194:14 **approval** 10:17 **approved** 55:22 56:1 **approximately** 34:14 99:3 ,5 **area** 56:22 133:22 143:2 148:21 173:11 198:4,13 225:13 ,15 **areas** 85:1 212:9 **arena** 143:3 **argue** 96:15 176:20 **argued** 88:1

**arguing** 59:22 179:14 **argument** 156:14 198:12 **arguments** 71:10,11 71:14 **Armin** 6:21 16:15 29:11 32:18 60:3 60:4 87:17 103:16 103:17 128:5 ,6,13 151:8,9 154:18 189:8,21 227:19 227:20 **Armstrong** 2:3 4:15 6:12,12 10:6,9,22 11:5 ,8 13:1 ,9,13 13:18 14:9,16 15:1 ,5 ,11 ,14,21 16:3 ,9,18 17:10 17:21 18:3 ,8,15 19:15 ,19,21 20:4 20:7 ,15 ,21 21:3 ,6 21:9 22:17 29:21 35:19 36:17 37:13 44:20 46:3 51:6 51:19 58:13 61:4 66:7 67:1 ,4,12 73:2,20 79:3 82:6 82:20 83:5 84:11 84:13 87:3 90:3 94:14,19 99:19 100:10 101:7 104:2,15 105:8 106:1 ,5 ,10 107:8 107:19 108:1 ,3 ,7 109:2,6 111:21 112:5 ,15 ,18 113:14,21 114:18 116:2,15 117:3 ,13 118:20 119:8 122:14 124:4,18 133:15 ,17 138:9 138:22 139:3 ,8,11 139:14,17 141:2,8 141:22 146:4,6 147:5 ,20 148:13 149:4,6,11 ,14,17 150:7 ,10 152:6,15 153:19,22 154:3 155:4,19 157:3 ,14 158:7 ,15 ,22 160:6 161:12,21 168:17 169:2 170:5 ,10,14 170:16,19,22 173:7 ,17 175:15 175:21 176:15 ,19

178:5 ,12,21 179:1 181:5 182:3 205:13 209:18 213:12,14 214:10 215:9 216:5 ,17 217:3 218:9 219:6 220:10 221:10,17 222:1 ,4,6 223:14 223:16 224:7 228:14,18 229:1 230:4,10 **arrangement** 165:12,19,21 **arrangements** 103:21 155:2 **arrived** 15:12 **ASAP** 2:22 **ascertains** 36:4 **Ashley** 2:3 6:12 11:3 14:8,13 18:20 22:7 23:2 23:11 29:19 35:18 36:12 41:7 44:20 46:2 49:14 50:2 61:2 68:4 76:10 84:3 ,7 86:22 93:9 102:6,13 107:6 108:18 110:22 116:10 140:1 141:5 146:2 148:8 152:3 155:19 165:17 166:3 169:20 178:2,18 179:14 184:9 191:7 196:15 198:6 205:11 208:12 209:8 215:13 221:6 223:6 228:16 **Ashley's** 88:10 102:21 110:15 140:2 184:6 **aside** 149:1 **asked** 16:9 33:6,9 41:7 46:21 47:4 68:17 70:3 72:14 94:22 95:18,18 99:10 149:1 189:21 200:9,13 **asking** 22:16 30:6 30:18 33:16 36:15 37:20,22 46:5 79:20 94:19 115:2 124:9 153:20,22 157:1 183:13 204:1

**aspect** 37:9 149:1 **aspects** 46:10 **ASRAC** 1:2 8:2 84:15 207:21 **assembled** 4:14 78:16 **assembly** 29:2 163:16 **assess** 32:4 **assign** 91:8 97:11 **assignment** 64:15 **assignments** 90:14 **associated** 23:14,21 24:3 28:6 79:10 167:20 **Association** 5:12 **assume** 182:12 **assuming** 15:6 66:19 68:11 201:7 **assumption** 134:7 ,8 164:15 185:16 204:5 211:7 **assumptions** 63:15 202:8 222:18 225:12 **Atlanta** 18:13 **attempted** 227:14 **attention** 209:1 **attitude** 199:16 **audience** 106:20 **August** 18:21 19:18 **authority** 45:2 72:22 73:22 97:1 198:13 **authorized** 220:7 **availability** 186:4 **available** 47:22 57:20 94:9 185:22 190:6 196:4 **Avenue** 1:7 **average** 93:11 **avoid** 186:1 211:17 214:8 **aware** 4:2 68:20 165:14 **Awareness** 2:21 5:22 **awful** 49:2 **axial** 118:10 120:8 125:1 ,9,18 126:1 126:21 129:12,12 141:16 142:21 177:19 226:3 **B B**  186:5

**back** 10:4 12:12,14 12:21 14:7 19:4 27:22 30:17 44:2 44:7 54:22 74:11 75:7 84:9 90:7 ,10 96:14 99:8,14 100:12 106:11 109:18 112:5 116:11 ,15 ,16,20 118:20 121:5 136:16,20 138:17 142:1 ,5 143:11 145:1 147:20 148:14 149:19,22 158:12 159:20 165:16 171:11 175:19 176:2 177:4,7 179:6,9 179:22 183:21 185:6 186:22 191:8 192:3 ,4 195:15 198:8 200:17 201:13 206:22 207:20 210:6,7 225:15 226:21 227:1 228:20 **background** 106:19 118:6 130:4 131:10 **backtracked** 73:6 **backward** 108:15 108:20 110:2,12 110:12 116:17 124:22 127:13 **bad** 14:11 112:9 204:18 **balanced** 198:4 **ball** 101:9,10 121:6 121:14 **ballot** 128:7 **Baltimore** 3:1 7:18 **bang** 47:19 95:17 **bare-shafted** 162:10 **bargaining** 97:1 **base** 57:12 58:17 ,21 59:18 64:3 ,6,8 95:10 154:1 **based** 11:12 18:2 28:12 32:6 63:4 66:21 105:21 117:10 129:10 130:6 134:8 155:1 160:19 163:8ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 233 168:3 171:11 193:4 213:19 214:12,17 217:13 217:15 ,19 219:7 ,7 219:8,9 223:2,3 224:4 **baseline** 108:9 **basic** 63:12 76:17 153:1 ,10 154:2,4 161:10,16,17 171:6,8,11 ,14 174:4 178:14,15 178:16 181:15 ,17 191:16 195:8 **basically** 27:4 53:19 60:17 122:17 131:13 191:19 **basis** 23:8 37:7 56:15 74:4 79:16 91:10,11 125:16 125:20 **battery** 141:17 ,20 **beanie** 141:17 **bearings** 154:5 **becoming** 227:6 **beginning** 13:19 71:6 73:4 197:20 217:4,5 **behalf** 52:10 179:14 **behoove** 115:19 **believe** 24:5 ,9 64:21 66:17 122:4 134:14 162:16 186:9,14,15 203:20 205:8 **Beloit** 2:17 7:9 52:10 **belongs** 116:13 **belt** 162:10 **bend** 128:8 **beneficial** 213:10 221:22 **benefit** 48:3 95:13 123:1 125:8 225:9 **benefits** 30:1 **Berkeley** 3:14 6:14 **Berner** 2:20 7:2 **best** 43:17 ,19 49:8 61:19 83:14 94:9 127:13 132:17 187:6,10 199:18 208:9 210:21 **bet** 198:20 **better** 10:13 17:15 25:1 27:12 30:2 39:14 45:9 71:2 94:10 101:19

125:10,12 127:14 138:18 156:9 161:22 164:19 180:11 182:15 183:1 ,6,9 188:7 188:13 219:4 **beyond** 31:7 66:15 **BI** 126:20 **big** 17:17 76:19 77:2 91:12 97:12 116:7 119:3 147:19,20,21 190:4 196:7 228:10 **bigger** 27:12 **biggest** 86:16 **Bill** 5:9 24:1 39:4 63:7 ,8,10 65:2 67:5 68:2 70:11 77:6 85:10 114:20 126:19 133:18 134:6 139:22 159:4 168:20 182:7 183:19 184:21 186:19 187:3 ,8 188:8 **Bill's** 188:3 189:13 **bit** 19:4 21:13 50:7 53:18 102:1 106:18 130:19 135:11 ,19 136:21 171:5 179:15 184:4 190:13 206:16 208:13 214:7 ,15 222:9 **bladed** 108:15 ,20 110:2 116:17 196:12 **blah** 179:18 **blind** 150:12 **blower** 2:13 6:3 51:9,11 115:11 116:7 119:1 120:2 120:16 130:10 131:15 132:12 134:4 150:2,5 ,21 151:4,11 ,14 205:5 **BLOWERS** 1:2 **blowing** 27:1 159:20 **board** 9:16 84:8,21 **Bob** 169:19 **Bob's** 176:2 **border** 126:3 **Boswell** 2:4 4:2,13 4:17 6:17 ,17 8:1 ,8 8:11 ,13 10:5 15:6

15:13 ,16 19:17 21:2,5 ,8 22:20 23:22 25:17 27:14 28:14 29:19 30:20 31:19 33:5 ,7 ,21 34:12 35:3 ,18 41:5 42:7 43:3 44:1 46:19 50:2 52:7 54:20 57:14 58:12 60:3 61:2 63:6 66:22 67:3 68:1 ,11 70:1 72:5 74:9 76:8 78:10 81:6 84:6 86:17 86:21 87:13 88:9 88:18 90:18 92:17 94:18 95:3 97:16 98:6 99:8 101:8 102:5 ,19 103:8,16 104:9,14,16 105:17 106:7 ,12 107:4 115:9 121:16 128:5 135:16 139:10 200:2,8,12,16 203:2 205:11 209:7 212:18 227:19 228:16 230:3 **Boteler** 2:10 7:7 ,7 171:4,4 172:5 ,8 172:12,14,19 **bought** 32:5 **boundary** 153:3 **box** 39:3 ,10,15 40:14 80:9 152:16 163:6 **boxes** 181:18 **boy** 86:6 **Boyd** 3:13 5:19 **brain** 181:16 **break** 72:14 81:13 89:15 ,20 90:1 ,6 99:12,13 100:11 105:10 106:8 127:8 200:5 201:10 **break-out** 184:4 **breakdown** 92:4 **breakdowns** 121:7 **breaking** 15:8 **breakout** 40:8 **breaks** 15:9 **briefly** 60:8 **bring** 14:15 ,18 15:11 ,17 60:1 127:2 191:11 197:19 202:18 209:15 210:5 220:19 222:20 230:5 **bringing** 124:8 179:11 **broad** 85:15 98:3 128:20,21 129:11 166:22 204:20 218:11 **broader** 117:5 119:13 **broke** 82:19 **Brooke** 2:9 7:14 **Brooklyn** 139:2 **brought** 59:5 119:17 159:19 160:9 **brush** 129:11 **BTU's** 145:21 **Bublitz** 2:13 6:2,2 115:10,10 116:6,6 116:12 117:22,22 118:14,14,22,22 119:19 120:1 ,1 ,15 120:15 124:10,13 124:13 ,16,20 128:17 130:9,9 131:14,14,17 ,19 132:11 ,11 134:3 ,3 151:13 ,13 152:17 152:21 205:4,5 **buck** 47:19 95:17 **bucket** 119:6 131:20 148:2 **bucketed** 84:22 **buckets** 87:11 116:7 116:8,13 119:4 120:7 128:20,21 173:20 174:13 **Buffalo** 3:12 6:8 **build** 26:16 107:12 163:15 217:11 **building** 1:6 43:14 82:17 159:14,18 159:20 161:5 190:2 **buildings** 34:7 190:4 **built** 9:20 156:2 157:21 158:5 163:16 164:19 **bullets** 82:8 177:10 **burden** 8:21 25:10 32:4,8

**burdensome** 194:21 **Burdick** 2:12 6:4,4 **business** 80:21 96:17 ,18 **buying** 78:14 **buys** 157:22 **by-laws** 105:5 **C C**  4:1 **CA** 3:10 **cabinet** 26:5 32:7 156:15 ,18 158:5 170:13 **cabinetry** 157:9 **cafeteria** 15:17 **calculable** 162:11 **calculate** 33:9 42:16 42:18 49:8 56:19 57:9 97:14 133:22 216:2 **calculated** 228:2 **calculating** 56:10 **calculation** 57:3 ,3 162:15 225:12 **calculations** 83:16 125:15 202:4 **California** 5:6,7 ,8 27:17 **call** 53:14 101:16 107:14 113:1 137:4 161:20 171:6 173:21 174:1 201:6 206:3 206:8,14,18 208:12 213:19 214:1 217:10 **called** 33:20 157:17 161:1 191:15 **calling** 79:8 215:20 **capability** 126:17 **capacity** 145:20 **capital** 96:13 **capture** 28:18 29:14 29:17 46:15 51:16 164:11 **captured** 29:13 34:9 73:17 164:12 **captures** 110:19 **capturing** 33:2 **car** 101:18 **card** 8:15 63:7 68:5 193:1 ,5 230:6 **cards** 31:20 **care** 26:17 119:11ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 234 **careful** 121:14 179:13 183:17 212:15 **Carnes** 7:1 96:20 **Carrier** 6:5 42:9 169:20 **case** 16:11 30:14,16 38:3 40:9,9 49:1 55:19 78:22 83:6 95:1 ,1 ,6 98:12 104:7 158:3 159:19 161:3 164:19 165:3 168:16 196:10 208:18 228:4 **cases** 31:13 132:14 170:2 226:8 **casing** 162:20 163:2 **cat** 194:10 **Catania** 2:14 7:10 7:10 106:16,17 120:19,20 135:18 147:15 166:5 ,5 167:16 168:5 173:8 179:8,12 192:8 197:16,22 197:22 203:7 ,7 204:5 211:7 ,12 220:2,3 230:9 **categorical** 180:21 **categories** 36:1 91:4 101:1 105:9 111:8 111:12 112:22 113:2 115:12,14 115:20,21 116:4,5 117:1 ,6,10,15 ,20 118:16 119:13 ,22 120:11 121:12,19 122:11 124:11 125:16 128:22 129:20 130:6,13 132:15 134:10 137:20 138:17 ,19 144:13 147:12 149:2 152:2 166:22 173:11 174:8 178:10 184:6 195:17 ,19 204:20 205:20 206:2,8,9,11 **categorization** 122:17 **categorizations** 117:18 **categorized** 120:14 **category** 47:11 92:18 101:2 105:21 ,22 107:15 109:17 115:22 129:3 134:4,22 135:13 140:14 151:16 167:19 211:22 214:16 **caucus** 4:4 14:1 68:6,10,14 76:13 103:2,11 192:20 197:14 201:6 202:21 **caucused** 8:17 **caucusing** 13:21 61:21 197:18 **caught** 74:15 **cause** 59:9,11 191:4 **causes** 96:12 **caveats** 171:13 172:15 **central** 13:16 **centrifugal** 24:18 108:15 ,20 109:4,8 109:16 110:2,2,9 110:17 111:11 112:2 113:19 114:1 ,21 115:12 116:17 118:9,9,10 125:12 126:1 ,20 129:2 132:2 133:19 135:9 142:20 150:5 ,21 157:19 169:21 176:8 177:19 178:9,13 191:1 195:20,20 196:11 **centrifugals** 132:5 **cents** 62:3 **certain** 35:21 ,22 36:1 69:9 127:10 127:10 174:11 190:3 217:8 **certainly** 12:17 30:2 38:4 54:14 67:20 68:20 71:11 ,14 82:2 93:14 98:3 176:17 180:12 186:3 203:10 **certification** 23:4 32:4,8 194:20 **cetera** 76:22 148:12 173:22 **Chair** 124:11 **challenge** 53:5 87:10 171:20 198:14 211:14 212:7

**challenges** 8:22 **challenging** 199:3 **chance** 4:4 27:2 68:8 72:15 **change** 16:5 18:1 19:6 27:7 ,10 44:19 57:22 59:8 59:10 101:12,12 114:4,5 ,14 115:7 168:20,21 ,22 169:3 228:9 **changed** 44:16 51:9 204:19 **changes** 107:5 108:11 **changing** 26:14 114:10 206:10 **channel** 55:7 **channeled** 164:13 **characteristics** 26:15 114:7 129:15 130:8 **chart** 108:17 **check** 72:11 87:2 94:15 99:10 119:2 119:21 120:4 175:12 228:14 **Chicago** 10:17 11:1 15:20 16:7 ,16 17:7 18:1 **chime** 211:2 **choice** 125:19 126:4 126:7 186:5 **Chris** 3:8 7:8 **chunk** 167:1 **circle** 185:6 **circulate** 206:21 210:1 **circulating** 209:19 **circulator** 28:1 **circumstances** 55:11 193:19 **City** 2:19 6:6 112:13 121:18 135:2 157:16 171:20 185:15 223:5 **Clarage** 7:21 **clarification** 73:21 126:10 136:20 139:18 **clarify** 130:19 169:20 182:2 194:19 **clarifying** 118:16 **clarity** 53:11

**class** 206:12 **classes** 93:18 206:5 206:8,18 207:9,16 208:11 219:18 224:9,11 ,13 ,16 230:19 **classified** 133:21 147:17 **cleaners** 97:20 **clear** 88:14 90:14 90:15 104:13 126:4 127:21 144:1 152:18 181:6,22 201:20 205:10 208:4 **clearly** 29:9 44:22 **Cleveland** 43:10 **close** 80:14 134:13 149:12 196:18 222:7 **closed** 124:3 **closely** 202:1 **closet** 201:13 ,16 **closing** 230:7 ,11 **closure** 159:8 **coast** 16:9,12 18:6,9 **coasters** 15:22 **Cochran** 2:7 7:6,6 **code** 42:4 **codes** 190:2 **coil** 24:20,20 27:7 ,8 156:12,17 **coils** 26:20 39:10 **colleagues** 226:2 **collect** 37:9 38:7 ,12 38:13 ,14 52:3 77:1 87:6 201:20 202:5 ,9 **collected** 88:14 90:15 **collecting** 88:13 100:19 **collection** 201:22 202:4 203:10 **collectively** 186:7 198:3 199:17 **collects** 208:22 **college** 199:12 **color** 128:18 150:11 **column** 23:6 110:18 137:20 **columns** 110:18 111:9 112:21 **combination** 24:10 125:5 155:22 190:21

**combinations** 25:9 **combine** 118:12 **combining** 206:11 **come** 11:20 15:7 ,22 18:7 ,12,13 23:16 27:20 30:5 36:22 37:3 46:4 49:9 53:17 59:22 62:22 62:22 63:13 ,15 ,19 66:21 67:19 72:3 74:6,7 ,7 75:11 82:3 84:1 90:7 ,10 91:14 92:8 96:2 96:14 98:3 100:12 143:11 163:2 179:22 192:4 198:8 201:15 210:13 222:6 228:19 **comes** 52:15 68:21 130:15 134:8 142:15 149:19 174:15 181:8 195:9 198:21 **comfort** 191:20 **comfortable** 88:11 124:10 128:15 142:7 **coming** 11:17 12:4 80:10 189:9 211:15 217:17 226:3 230:12 **commence** 4:18 **comment** 27:14 39:4 43:4,7 44:4 48:17 63:8,8,9,11 68:3 ,12,14 72:19 89:4,11 102:9,20 115:3 118:15 ,16 121:1 125:6 135:17 142:18 144:20 152:18 166:3 179:10 198:1 203:19 208:20 223:7 **comments** 44:2 45:6 54:22 56:9 102:6 132:4 169:8 212:19 220:18 **commercial** 34:7 44:10,13 56:17 74:12 81:16 82:16 83:1 ,3 146:20 **Commission** 34:15 **commit** 181:1ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 235 **committed** 204:11 **committee** 12:16 13:4 38:1 46:5 81:3 ,4 95:2 104:19 124:12 208:5 ,16 222:22 **Committee's** 38:9 **common** 123:3 **communicate** 129:20 **communicated** 115:14 **communication** 129:4 **companies** 2:19 70:22 95:8 96:17 198:19 **company** 2:13 3:1 4:20 5:8,9 6:3 7:1 7:19,22 22:21 79:17 93:13 96:20 115:11 144:9 205:5 **comparable** 224:9 227:17 **compare** 72:15 **compared** 128:21 216:15 **comparing** 190:13 **comparisons** 35:14 **compelled** 199:20 **complete** 205:14 **completely** 22:12 26:6 51:7 106:1 142:13 165:13 ,14 205:16 224:17 **complex** 66:2 75:15 93:9 100:8 205:18 208:7 225:18 **complexities** 26:8 **complexity** 115:16 **compliant** 55:5 57:19,19,22 58:1 60:10 **complicate** 41:2 **complicated** 65:5 179:19,20 198:9 **complicating** 121:15 **comply** 55:16 137:5 161:18 **complying** 204:6 **component** 9:6 26:3 26:3 ,7 39:12 44:13 66:12,12 114:16,17 154:7 ,8 160:20 161:7

166:9,18 167:3 168:10 188:5 ,17 226:12 **components** 24:11 24:15 25:1 ,7 26:12 29:2,2,6 40:3 ,6,10 52:13 53:16 54:6 55:14 79:10 145:7 154:4 154:11 155:16 156:1 157:8,11 160:21 163:10 167:13 170:11 ,12 171:10 217:1 ,8 **compressor** 69:15 69:19,20 **concept** 52:11 122:2 152:5 203:9 204:11 **concern** 8:19 12:12 31:17 39:17 55:9 89:3 96:22 197:9 205:2 **concerned** 23:3 32:8 32:17 91:5 120:21 **concerns** 11:12 39:2 46:7 78:13 121:21 224:3 ,14 **concluded** 137:10 143:6 **concluding** 44:11 44:11 **conclusion** 45:18 62:19 63:1 214:21 **conclusions** 111:4 **condenser** 26:22 27:7 92:22 93:2,3 94:4,6 **condition** 41:11 42:2 52:17 ,18 189:1 ,15 **conditioning** 9:13 55:12 57:2,7 ,8 69:14 **conditions** 48:19 49:1 ,5 54:9 77:21 78:5 132:15 138:11 **conduct** 37:15 **cone** 89:14 **conferring** 229:1 **confident** 192:16 **confidentiality** 203:15 **confidentially** 203:20

**configuration** 137:4 137:11 157:12 161:17 173:22 174:3 ,5 ,16,17 ,19 175:6,8,9,17 176:1 ,6,22 177:15 177:18 178:3 179:3 180:14 181:7 184:9,13 ,15 184:19 188:13 ,16 191:2,15 192:12 194:22 205:6,15 206:5 ,17 207:10 208:11 210:19 212:5 219:19 222:11 225:7 ,9 **configurations** 35:9 154:22 160:8 195:1 202:14 **confirm** 10:11 ,20 **conflict** 19:2,6 **conflicting** 132:17 **conform** 190:19 **Congress** 51:10 **connect** 85:9 **connected** 30:10,11 33:14 37:9 47:12 47:18,20 48:22 49:9 63:16 71:14 75:2 76:18 77:1 ,4 77:7 ,11 ,16,22 78:5 ,7 85:9 91:8 95:11 97:13 98:10 99:6 101:18,21 102:3 133:19 136:6,10 167:1 180:7 **connective** 96:1 **consensus** 14:12 23:16 27:21 46:5 85:21 96:6,8,9 108:16 113:6 212:21 213:3 **consequence** 39:2 39:18 47:22 184:20 185:11 186:15 188:18,22 226:16 227:4 **consequences** 183:15 **consider** 35:22 43:11 ,21 46:6 52:18 53:3 87:21 102:2 153:9 162:20 182:21 186:21 209:4

219:22 221:3 **consideration** 36:16 48:6,16 73:8 109:11 143:4 145:16 155:14 **considered** 28:3 ,5 56:12 74:16 77:5 78:18 136:14 142:22 152:8 176:21 **considering** 44:12 46:10 **consistent** 213:5 **consistently** 203:16 **consolidate** 68:8 **constantly** 212:16 **constrained** 190:10 **constraint** 190:1 ,19 **constraints** 190:2,7 **construction** 17:13 97:20 190:3 **consultant** 7:10 23:19 106:17 **Consulting** 3:5 5:1 6:11 34:13 127:17 215:11 **consume** 75:1 77:8 184:18 191:4 **consumed** 31:5 77:15 81:15 85:12 **consumer** 66:13 **consumes** 48:21 **consuming** 186:6 **consumption** 31:2 31:16 42:20 50:21 56:10,14,20 57:10 63:17 65:6,8,13 66:11 76:1 ,7 77:12 81:8,10,12 81:18,20,21 83:12 168:14 215:15 ,17 215:18 226:10 227:5 **contemplating** 180:13 **content** 61:5 ,13 **contentious** 229:17 **context** 206:15 **continually** 136:2 **continue** 145:17 **contrary** 226:15 **contribution** 193:8 **control** 5:12 53:3 ,13 53:15 216:11 218:20 **controls** 54:2,10

213:17 **conventional** 215:3 **conversation** 100:4 136:5 ,8 138:16 174:21 205:8 224:17 **conversations** 135:20 200:9 204:18,22 205:3 209:13 **conversing** 4:10 **conversion** 162:12 166:20 **convert** 205:14 **converting** 168:8 **conveyed** 173:9 **convinced** 224:19 **cool** 122:12 **cooling** 2:18 7:17 ,19 34:4,9 40:21 50:11 ,18 57:3 73:18 74:15 145:9 184:1 **copying** 43:15 **core** 166:13 **corner** 125:22 186:22 187:1 192:4 **Corporation** 2:10 2:20 7:3 106:22 **correct** 15:5 17:10 19:19 21:6 34:4 46:16 50:14 51:19 98:10 99:2 116:2 141:8 144:18 ,19 145:12 158:6 170:4,22 179:5 187:17 196:7 **correctly** 130:5 168:12 **cost** 30:1 97:15 163:18 164:5 ,18 **costs** 103:20 164:7 **COTANIA** 123:13 **Council** 3:7 5:17 **count** 226:12 **counter-productive** 12:6 **counts** 97:10 **couple** 11:21 12:1 12:10 45:7 54:22 72:5 104:4 109:1 132:1 210:1 222:7 222:15 **course** 29:3 47:3ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 236 76:17 **court** 17:5 198:21 **courts** 199:14 **cover** 9:20 45:2 84:14 85:4 195:17 **coverage** 44:10 70:2 **covered** 22:3 24:3 25:3 ,13 32:20 41:3 76:4 131:5 145:21 173:16 **covering** 124:10 **covers** 110:17 **crap** 194:2 **create** 59:12 112:21 121:4 146:10 147:7 185:10 196:6 **created** 135:15 188:18 **creating** 121:11 146:19 147:8 **credit** 205:14 **creditable** 27:21 **cross** 142:14 195:8 **cubicle** 160:2 **curious** 141:12 142:19 **currently** 32:10 44:19 50:14 60:7 145:21 **curve** 110:12,12 127:9 128:9 **curved** 126:11 127:14 **curves** 127:4 **customer** 55:21 **customers** 55:22 56:4 76:1 **cut** 109:15 163:18 **cutting** 12:17 13:2 **D D**  4:1 **D.C** 11:10 18:6,9 **Daddis** 2:15 6:5 ,5 42:8,8 87:15 **dampers** 39:10 **Dan** 2:19 6:6 7:9 52:9 103:4 112:12 115:6 121:16,17 123:8 124:9 125:6 126:9 130:18 131:8 132:18,19 135:2,19 136:18 136:19 137:16 138:4,7 141:10,15 141:15 ,19 143:2

146:8 147:7 157:15 164:3 ,14 164:21 171:19 185:15 193:16 203:17 ,19 217:4 217:14 223:5 226:14 229:13 **dang** 12:2 **Daniel** 2:17 **data** 24:4 30:5 ,16 30:18 36:3 ,18 37:7 ,17 ,21 38:7 38:12,13 41:7 ,9,9 41:21 ,22 43:12,22 47:1 ,3 ,5 ,11 49:3 ,4 54:2 56:11 57:12 58:6,17 ,20 59:12 59:14,15 ,16,18 62:6,7 63:14 64:2 64:3 ,6,8,17 ,19 65:15 68:19,21 69:6,13 73:14 74:3 ,12 75:15 ,21 76:11 ,16,20 79:22 81:3 ,11 82:8,15 83:7 ,10,15 ,17 ,17 83:18,18 85:14 87:6 88:13 89:1 ,2 90:9,10 91:22 92:1 ,13 93:12,13 93:14,15 94:9,11 94:20 95:5 ,6,10 100:18,19 120:22 121:1 ,5 ,10 189:4 189:5 197:1 199:7 201:20,22 202:3 ,4 202:5 ,9 203:10,15 203:20 204:2,7 ,8 208:22 221:12,15 221:18,18 222:18 222:21 223:3 227:2 229:7 ,8 230:2 **database** 75:8 98:21 99:1 202:6 **date** 29:13 44:17 62:20 206:14 212:12,13 **David** 2:20 7:2 **day** 4:18 10:14 13:5 15:22 16:7 ,14 17:1 ,1 18:7 19:22 75:19 82:12 147:8 160:7 180:1 181:21 185:8 201:1 210:12

**day's** 13:2 **days** 15:15 20:16 210:1 222:7 230:12,13 **DC** 1:8 **deadline** 19:16,18 **deal** 71:17 ,18 75:16 94:17 103:14 155:21 156:5 165:11 167:19 207:10 **dealing** 101:20 **debate** 48:6 49:14 49:20 77:20 83:21 84:3 ,5 96:2,19 143:3 167:2 **debated** 95:21 **debates** 88:21 **debating** 64:1 130:22 **Debois** 7:14,14 **Deborah** 8:5 ,8,9 **debris** 161:5 **December** 64:4 **decide** 28:12 59:15 72:13 103:18 207:7 **decided** 104:18 225:20 **deciding** 153:13 **decision** 30:12 38:9 45:19 62:4,8 63:3 64:2 67:18 81:3 82:9 226:20 **decision-making** 130:17 **decisions** 37:19 47:2 63:14 80:3 81:5 97:7 105:22 **deck** 84:10 85:4 **declarative** 179:17 **declare** 179:20 **deep** 10:12 138:13 **default** 174:12 217:2 **defaults** 174:10 **defeat** 189:10 **Defense** 3:7 5:17 **defer** 72:12 155:15 192:1 ,6 196:15 **deficient** 188:19 **define** 25:5 54:5 64:16 87:11 89:2 90:9 110:20 115:12 116:5 132:9 153:10

154:19 162:2 171:14 182:13 184:7 191:13 208:10 225:15 **defined** 42:17 48:19 53:7 54:6,10 118:10 161:17 181:7 218:11 227:21 **defining** 117:21 118:8,12 179:2 **definitely** 38:3 98:12 100:18 104:2 105:15 156:5 181:5 **definition** 45:1 ,3 52:16 53:4,6,9,11 78:12 85:7 91:19 98:3 101:12 108:18,21 109:3 ,4 109:14,15 110:3 110:11 111:8,11 111:13 114:1 ,4,6 114:10,13 115:21 115:22 116:18 129:8 131:2 133:9 140:4 150:18 151:1 152:9,11 153:2 167:12,18 168:3 169:3 174:16 178:1 179:7 180:21 191:21 **definitions** 100:3 ,13 100:20 105:15 108:8 114:21 115:11 116:3 ,21 116:22 117:5 ,6,9 117:14 118:7 129:6 138:19 191:18 192:16 206:4 208:10 230:18 **definitive** 187:13 **definitively** 63:1 **Delaney** 2:17 7:9,9 52:9,9 **delayed** 4:11 **deliberations** 47:8 **demand** 57:1 **Denmark** 43:9 **departed** 122:1 **Department** 1:1 ,5 2:1 6:19 7:12,14 45:18 46:7 51:3 60:7 ,19 61:12,14

62:5 79:15 ,18 99:20 198:11 ,12 199:20 **depend** 57:2,9 **depending** 56:22 75:4 78:17 214:15 216:22 **depends** 141:20 158:19 176:15 179:1 **depth** 192:10 **derived** 97:1 **describe** 178:2 **described** 92:2,4 95:7 185:2 **describes** 218:2 **describing** 183:21 **description** 136:9 160:19 184:7 **descriptions** 129:19 **design** 24:9 26:10 27:7 31:14 32:6 67:19 68:19,22 180:10 **designed** 164:10 **designs** 69:8 **desire** 196:20 **detail** 10:1 49:2 56:5 116:12 117:16 173:14 206:16 213:10 **detailed** 81:13 136:8,9 182:4 207:11 **details** 62:13 140:12 148:20 192:6 207:4,6,12 214:14 219:15 ,20 230:20 **determination** 60:16 70:2 162:5 **determine** 25:2 33:10,14 42:19 54:12 60:17 65:19 66:10 91:17 136:22 **determined** 228:1 **determining** 83:11 228:6 **deterministically** 59:3 **develop** 72:1 109:11 217:14 **developing** 47:13 **development** 53:22 **device** 220:9ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 237 **dial** 185:9 **dialogue** 11:13 **diameter** 91:21 **diamond** 180:14 **Diane** 8:4,6 63:5 ,6 67:21 68:2,12,15 70:1 74:17 168:1 168:17 **Diane's** 63:9 **Diego** 5:7 **difference** 19:22 46:9 80:9 102:14 118:1 122:3 224:12 **differences** 51:5 129:3 132:20 **different** 13:21 32:22 35:9,10 41:4 42:22 43:19 49:17 51:7 58:20 61:22 64:3 69:3 73:18 74:22 75:5 76:5 ,6,16 77:21 81:8 100:22 116:22 120:8,11 132:14 133:4,7 134:10 135:6,7 ,8 135:13 148:11 152:7 154:20,21 155:1 ,22 156:2,4 160:7 168:15 171:9 176:10 180:2 181:18 182:11 190:14 193:13 214:4,15 218:20,20 219:22 221:21 224:16,16 224:17 226:6 **differentiate** 42:10 45:12,14 55:2 61:17 102:12 138:13 159:22 **differentiated** 223:8 **differentiates** 36:8 **differentiating** 122:8 **differentiation** 46:7 154:13 224:21 **differently** 26:6 79:6 184:17 188:3 194:12 **differing** 59:19 **difficult** 33:13 35:7 42:19 56:3 133:15 191:11 192:1 194:9 **difficulty** 195:3

**dig** 93:13 **Dikeman** 2:16 5:13 5:13 50:5 ,5 ,17 51:15 110:5 ,16 111:2,7 ,14,18 112:1 ,4,9 113:11 113:13 **diligence** 45:8 81:5 87:5 **diligent** 212:14 **dimensions** 136:13 **diminished** 94:2 95:14 **direct** 47:6 168:2 **directed** 51:10 **directing** 152:4 **direction** 58:5 115:5 **directly** 68:4 79:4 113:22 118:3 148:5 ,6 197:17 **directs** 154:9 168:13 184:16 188:6 **disagree** 78:3 **discharge** 27:4 156:21 165:13 ,15 165:17 ,20,21 **discharges** 133:20 159:14 **discharging** 27:1 156:12 **disclosed** 204:8 **discovered** 58:21 91:15 **discretion** 198:22 **discuss** 37:5 ,8 45:21 222:9,12 **discussed** 10:4 62:14 65:4 72:19 135:4 140:22 157:9 204:15 **discussing** 69:5 84:17 ,18,18 142:7 177:16 194:18 **discussion** 8:14 16:6 21:16,20 22:4,9 31:1 32:14,19 34:15 ,22 49:16 61:5 74:18 78:20 78:21 84:22 86:2 86:10,11 88:3 ,6 88:22 89:5 ,8 92:7 98:1 99:17 100:6 100:7 ,17 ,21 108:9 123:11 127:3 128:14 129:7

138:10 140:19 142:2 143:11 145:17 147:2 148:14 157:4 176:20 182:1 ,4 183:22 184:5 185:16 193:6 197:6 200:5 201:7 201:10,13 ,19 202:13 ,16 209:3 214:4,22 216:6,17 226:1 229:18 **discussions** 8:18 9:10,11 40:7 46:22 62:21 86:3 100:8 123:1 124:2 151:7 175:19 186:13 192:9 193:4 194:13 205:22 206:1 207:15 220:21 221:13 229:12 **dismiss** 28:9 **displaced** 130:14 **distinct** 129:2 **distinction** 136:3 166:7 ,8 180:20 **distinctions** 166:16 **distribution** 24:19 55:6 **dive** 10:12 138:13 **diverse** 213:3 **divide** 89:19 **division** 216:19 **divisions** 123:16 **doable** 155:3 **docket** 124:4 **document** 37:5 44:7 44:9 45:5 ,22 72:20 96:8 **documents** 47:4 **DOE** 2:3 ,4,5 ,6,7 ,8,9 6:12 7:6 15:17 22:7 23:4,19 32:12,22 35:21 36:7 37:1 38:8 44:12,17 ,20 45:2 45:2,4 47:3 48:13 51:10 53:18 55:3 56:10 57:11 71:18 72:21 73:6 74:12 79:5 ,11 ,22 81:10 83:8,15 ,18 88:15 92:13 94:12,14 100:21 102:8 117:5 ,6 120:2,9

138:13 145:21 152:4 155:20 161:12 171:11 184:18 203:20 205:15 ,16,18 206:3 ,19 207:16 208:1 ,4,4 209:18 210:8,10 219:1 220:5 ,13 ,14 222:9 **DOE's** 21:19 29:13 36:13 ,16 37:6,11 97:13 206:15 209:10 210:15 ,15 224:7 **doing** 13:5 16:18,19 18:5 20:8 26:9 27:4 43:15 68:14 89:12 107:9 182:15 190:17 193:12 194:9 197:19 221:7 **domain** 92:15 96:7 **dominant** 125:19 **Don** 6:8 **Donald** 3:12 **downloaded** 228:13 **downstream** 26:4 26:11 53:16 **draft** 62:17 116:22 **drafted** 117:10 **dramatically** 81:9 95:14 **drastically** 27:10 **draw** 33:11 35:8 133:11 181:21 **drawing** 94:6 **drew** 95:19 **drive** 53:16 54:3 ,16 160:21 162:11 163:10,16,19 190:14 191:17 217:18 **driven** 54:4 74:3 101:14,15 102:3 191:1 199:7 **driver** 133:12 216:10 **drives** 40:4 **drops** 35:10 189:17 **drove** 130:16 **dual** 34:2 **Duane** 2:15 6:5 42:7 42:8 87:13 **DuBois** 2:9 **ducks** 226:22 **duct** 133:20 134:15 134:20 **ducted** 107:22 113:1 117:21 119:10 122:2,7 132:7 ,7 133:9,21 134:4,18 137:2,4 137:5 ,5 ,10,12,20 137:21 138:6,10 138:14 225:20 **ducting** 132:15 **due** 45:8 70:11 81:5 87:5 **dust** 130:11 ,14 **duty** 165:1 **E E**  2:15 ,17 4:1 ,1 **earlier** 16:8 48:17 53:12 76:10 81:10 95:7 103:20 120:22 136:5 160:3 161:11 230:8 **early** 12:17 64:4 **easier** 94:2 119:13 **easiest** 151:10 **easily** 34:20 82:10 153:8 **east** 16:12 **easy** 56:7 66:3 109:20 194:7 **eating** 15:15 **ebm-papst** 6:21 87:17 151:9 **ecodesign** 29:6 **Edison** 5:7 **EDM** 161:20 **EER** 27:9 32:11 **effect** 39:16 122:9 128:8 **effective** 31:12 165:2 212:10,12 226:7 ,8 **effectively** 24:16,21 164:10 **effectivity** 31:10 **effects** 26:5 69:4 163:5 176:13 ,21 177:2 189:18 **efficiencies** 186:10 190:13 **efficiency** 9:7 24:8 25:3 26:14 29:5 43:2,18 50:11 ,12 51:2 52:2,3 ,13ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 238 54:1 57:18 58:10 59:6,7 ,9,10 60:13 60:16 65:20 69:9 69:16 73:11 ,15 76:21 ,22 93:5 96:3 122:4 126:5 128:9,11 132:21 133:11 135:6,8,10 135:13 136:12 155:1 162:5 164:6 187:6,6,7 ,10,15 189:16 190:9,14 190:20 191:3 193:21 194:1 216:9,10 218:7 ,10 218:14,18 219:3 228:5 ,7 **efficient** 24:10,13 24:22 27:3 29:2,3 29:5 ,8 31:14,15 39:12,13 40:5 ,6 40:12,13 47:21 48:2 66:18 69:18 127:8 128:1 164:17 165:4 182:18 ,20 183:4,6 184:15 185:1 ,3 187:5 ,5 ,18,19 188:14,19,20 189:12,16 190:18 **effort** 48:11 49:16 49:18 **efforts** 48:8 49:8 **EIA** 82:17 **either** 16:1 36:7 49:12 55:22 68:4 115:1 118:4 133:10 157:5 182:21 187:8,9 188:10,11 202:10 227:18 **electric** 5:7 ,8 101:15 172:15 **electrical** 162:13 167:14 216:14 **electricity** 102:4 **elements** 155:20 166:7 ,12 229:7 ,8 **eliminate** 14:21 94:3 196:11 **eliminates** 91:3 **eliminating** 31:4 94:13 196:9 **eloquence** 155:7 **eluded** 62:10 217:4 **email** 207:1 **emb-papst** 60:4

**embarked** 227:9 **embed** 70:7 **embedded** 22:9,11 25:4,13 30:4,8 36:1 ,9 45:15 48:8 50:16 65:21 70:4 88:6,7 ,22 90:22 119:17 ,18 142:3 142:15 151:7 174:1 175:7 ,10,19 175:22 177:9 181:16 189:22 190:16 195:5 196:5 197:2 198:16 210:22 **embrace** 199:5 **emerge** 211:21 **enclosure** 171:13 **encompass** 120:13 **encompasses** 120:10 **encourage** 209:1 **encouraged** 102:2 **encouragement** 70:10 **encouraging** 212:14 **ended** 132:13 ,13 199:12 227:18 **endless** 147:8 **ends** 39:13 126:4 **enemy** 211:17 **energy** 1:1 ,5 2:1 6:20 7:13 ,15 9:7 23:14,20 24:2,6 27:11 ,13 28:7 ,18 28:19,19 29:17 31:2,5 ,15 32:2,13 32:14 33:3 39:19 41:10 42:20,20 47:14 48:20 50:18 50:19 51:9,16 52:2 56:10,14,20 57:5 ,10 59:4 60:7 63:17 65:5 ,8,13 66:11 ,13 74:16 75:1 ,4,5 ,6,8 76:1 76:6 77:7 ,12,19 81:7 ,9,12,15 ,18 81:19,21 82:4 93:7 96:13 97:15 123:10 125:19 134:16 144:11 164:11 166:14,20 167:15 168:8,14 183:10,11 ,13 184:18 185:3 ,11

186:6 191:5 215:15 ,16,18 226:9,17 ,21 227:5 229:21 **enforce** 55:3 ,3 102:13 **enforceability** 46:8 **enforceable** 36:6 **enforced** 55:17 **enforcement** 195:3 209:10,10 **engage** 49:18 70:8 70:13 71:2 **engineer** 67:14 **engineering** 3:6 228:11 **engineers** 227:22 **English** 128:4 **engrossed** 210:11 **enjoyable** 230:14 **enormous** 23:14 **enter** 187:22 **entered** 135:4 **entering** 9:1 **entertain** 62:6 **entertainment** 14:18 **entire** 12:4,14 75:2 75:3 159:10 195:7 **entirely** 107:2 175:20 **entirety** 159:7 **envelope** 27:13 57:21 **environment** 51:17 **environmental** 209:2 **environments** 156:2 **envision** 150:19 160:15 217:21 **envisioned** 140:11 **EPCA** 44:10,17 45:1 ,3 **equally** 89:20 **equation** 31:7 **equipment** 9:11 ,15 26:17 28:10 31:18 32:3 ,17 ,20 34:2,5 38:20,21 39:20 40:2 41:14 42:13 42:13 ,21 43:12,21 48:9 65:11 ,21 66:11 67:9 68:20 68:22 69:4,14 70:5 ,6,7 73:16,19 74:21 77:8,21

78:4 79:1 80:5 ,8 80:14 82:19 92:20 93:16,20 94:16 97:20 98:14 122:6 140:18 142:22 143:9 145:5 ,19,20 146:11 ,21 147:11 147:13 148:4,10 148:11 149:3 150:22 152:12 160:5 172:2 188:17 206:4,8,12 206:18 207:9,16 208:10 209:1 ,5 ,6 219:18 224:10 230:19 **equitable** 79:12 **equivalent** 71:16,16 215:19 216:2 **Erb** 2:14 **ERV** 144:20,22 **escape** 227:4 **especially** 192:11 ,19 198:21 **essentially** 62:10,10 138:1 215:12,14 **established** 105:5 162:16 **estimate** 48:21 76:18 162:12 163:3 **estimating** 77:12 **et** 76:22 148:12 173:22 **European** 34:15 **Europeans** 53:20 127:5 **evaluate** 23:16,20 27:20 28:9,11 29:18 34:10 35:16 65:14 72:16 77:11 97:6 197:1 **evaluated** 28:22 52:21 **evaluating** 40:19 **evening** 11:14 **event** 93:1 ,2 **events** 88:12 **everybody** 12:3 ,7 70:15 86:6 89:19 113:10 122:12 125:8 140:18 142:6 150:1 ,3 ,4 163:13 199:3 **everybody's** 12:18 114:8

**everyone's** 54:8 **evidence** 28:12 **evolved** 121:3 **ex** 73:5 **exact** 81:19 **exactly** 22:5 34:14 72:12 74:1 138:15 162:17 187:10 212:6 214:1 **example** 24:17 47:10 56:21 59:4 92:21 97:20 144:6 145:2,4,19 149:21 159:5 160:9 162:8 162:9 163:13 165:16 168:9 169:21 176:2 179:21 180:16 188:12 189:18 212:4,4 226:1 **examples** 112:22 113:1 ,15 ,15 145:15 147:8 179:20 **excellent** 81:11 **exception** 180:6 **exceptions** 22:1 ,2 131:6 **exchange** 164:5 189:14 **exclamation** 229:16 **exclude** 63:2 **excluded** 37:6,7 141:7 ,18 **excuse** 71:13 126:2 139:22 **exempted** 25:15 28:2 147:18 **exemption** 23:15 147:17 **exercise** 33:14 97:2 121:14 136:1 ,15 136:17 146:9 151:5 158:11 217:6 **exist** 89:1 148:21 190:4 220:15 **existence** 186:5 **existing** 23:8 60:6 128:21 129:6 **exists** 56:16 92:1 ,1 151:15 164:22 189:1 216:3 **exit** 115:3 166:1 **expand** 106:18ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 239 135:18 **expansion** 164:11 164:12 **expect** 60:9 210:5 ,7 212:1 219:14 **expensive** 165:4 **experience** 24:5 ,12 **expert** 107:16,18 131:12 **expertise** 100:2 **experts** 211:1 **explain** 169:5 173:14 210:9 **explainable** 181:21 **explained** 180:1 **express** 96:21 **expressed** 103:1 **expression** 96:21 **extend** 83:10 **extended** 103:13 188:17 211:19 212:12 **extending** 162:20 **extent** 16:20 29:12 30:14 35:21 37:15 40:19 92:14 123:17 152:10 198:2 203:13 204:7 208:20,21 210:3 220:17 ,21 222:8 224:11 **exterior** 155:2 **external** 166:12 169:9 226:3 **extra** 163:17 164:18 228:6 **extract** 92:11 **extraneous** 169:13 **extrapolate** 54:11 **extrapolation** 54:7 **extremely** 24:12 199:3 **F faces**  199:4 **facilitate** 21:17 209:13 **Facilitator** 6:18,20 **fact** 31:1 46:14 48:10 56:6 136:22 160:22 169:4 229:20 **factor** 57:15 58:2 **factors** 215:15 216:1 **factory** 137:1 **facts** 60:1 ,1

**fails** 195:7 **fair** 12:15 ,16 82:6 123:11 150:5 204:14 220:5 **fairly** 93:15 156:10 **fairness** 123:21 **fall** 110:3 111:16 145:15 149:22 166:21 193:20 **falls** 156:22 191:14 **familiar** 39:22 177:14 **family** 20:19 **fan** 2:19 6:7 7:21 23:5 24:13 ,18,21 24:22 25:2,4,5 ,21 25:22 26:1 ,5 ,7 ,10 26:15 27:3 ,7 28:19 29:8 31:5 ,8 31:11 ,15 33:10 35:5 ,8,12 37:7 38:21 ,22 39:1 ,3 ,6 39:11 ,13 ,18 40:5 40:13 41:10,15 42:11 ,18,21 ,22 45:1 ,1 ,12,14,15 46:8,15 47:10 48:20 49:7 50:13 50:18,19,20,21 51:2,3 ,16 52:2,15 53:5 ,8,11 57:18 57:19,21 58:9,10 58:19 59:6,7 ,9 60:9,10,21 61:1 61:16 62:12 65:11 65:12 66:1 ,11 ,16 66:20 67:7 ,8 68:18,19 69:1 ,15 69:16 70:10 73:15 75:2,5 ,8,20 78:13 78:15 ,16,19,22 79:2,8 80:12 81:20 84:15 88:6 88:7 91:8 92:19 93:6 97:12 100:2 101:2,2,12,17 ,18 102:15 108:15 ,20 109:16 110:2,3 ,17 111:12 112:13 114:1 115:11 ,12 115:14 116:18 117:9,21 118:10 118:10,13 120:11 121:18 123:19 125:12,18 126:1 ,1 126:12 127:12

129:2,17 131:11 132:2,2 133:19 134:10,15 ,17 ,20 134:22 135:2,9 136:22 137:5 ,7 ,10 137:19,21 138:6 141:16 142:22 143:5 ,6,7 ,9 145:2 146:21 148:5 ,17 150:15 151:15 ,16 151:18,20,21 152:2,15 153:1 ,1 153:3 ,7 ,10,11 154:4,7 ,9,11 ,20 155:9,14 156:12 156:15 ,19,20 157:7 ,16,18,19,20 158:1 ,2,2,21 159:7 160:4,19 161:6,9 162:10,10 162:14,22 163:5 ,9 163:15 ,22 164:17 164:22 165:1 ,4,8 165:11 ,13 ,21 167:12,20,22 169:12,13 ,21 ,21 170:3 ,6,9,15 ,18 171:20 172:10 173:3 ,21 174:18 176:8 178:8,9,13 181:9,11 ,17 182:8 182:16,17 ,20,22 183:5 ,6,12 184:5 184:6,7 ,10,13 ,14 184:17 185:1 ,4,16 186:4,5 ,10 187:5 187:16 188:4,6,14 188:14,18 189:16 190:13 ,14,15 ,17 191:1 ,1 ,21 193:22 195:5 ,6,6 196:5 196:12 210:22 213:16 216:9 218:1 219:10,11 223:6 224:2 225:8 225:10,13 ,15 226:3 227:5 ,6 228:1 **fans** 1:2 8:18,20,22 9:2,6,12,20,21 22:13 25:13 ,19 26:22 28:10 29:8 29:15 ,18 30:10 31:2 33:15 34:17 36:1 ,1 37:2 40:11 42:10 44:10,13

45:2,19 47:9 48:8 56:21 ,21 57:17 ,18 57:20 65:7 ,9 66:11 ,17 67:20 70:4,8 71:5 ,15 72:22 73:8,9,10 74:13 ,19,20 76:5 80:5 ,7 83:9,9 85:2 85:7 ,19,22 86:1 87:21 90:22 92:8 92:13 ,19,22,22 93:1 ,2,3 ,7 ,11 ,20 94:4,6 95:5 ,9,16 97:19,22 98:9,11 98:15 ,21 ,22 99:4 101:1 ,14,15 ,21 102:3 ,13 107:13 109:4,8 110:11 113:20 114:22 120:8,14 122:18 125:9 126:16 127:9 131:13 133:10 138:18 ,21 139:19 140:2,10 140:15 ,15 142:3 ,8 142:8,14 144:4,21 144:22 146:10 147:2,10,11 ,11 148:9 157:17 173:11 176:22 177:9,9,12,15 180:6 182:5 185:17 186:11 187:9 195:4,16,18 196:3 ,20 197:2 198:16 202:13 209:3 ,4 **fantastic** 79:16 **far** 23:3 32:7 ,17 55:17 65:17 71:2 177:8 196:22 **fast** 101:10 **faulty** 55:10 **fear** 11:16 60:6 **fears** 196:1 **February** 64:7 72:20 **feedback** 210:5 ,6 211:2 220:16 223:3 **feel** 12:13 64:18 120:14 128:15 142:7 177:22 178:6 194:12 211:1 215:4,11 225:3

**feels** 121:20 127:22 199:20 **FEI** 60:12 214:5 215:22 216:2 **felt** 96:2 **FER** 155:8 215:20 215:21 216:2,8 **Fernstrom** 3:10 159:12,21 **Ferstrom** 5:5 ,5 18:20 19:9,12,20 20:5 23:11 27:16 32:2 33:19 34:1 77:17 98:7 ,13 ,19 101:22 141:5 ,15 148:8,22 173:2 208:19 **field** 176:11 181:11 **fifteen** 105:12 **figure** 9:19 29:16 38:4 41:8 64:11 66:15 75:8 81:14 81:17 85:6,8 91:9 163:17 182:1 197:5 199:8 207:5 212:5 ,8 222:10 **figures** 164:17 **figuring** 38:13 **filing** 32:11 **filter** 156:12,17 **filtering** 135:4 **filters** 39:10 41:19 **final** 33:1 43:17 86:11 128:11 **finalized** 10:15 **find** 27:19 55:6 125:9 136:15 141:3 ,12 166:15 207:18 **finding** 212:3 **fine** 2:5 6:15 ,15 11:22 45:14 87:12 101:5 143:22 167:11 ,22 170:8 189:3 215:9 222:1 **finer** 148:19 207:6 214:14 219:20 **finish** 89:7 90:2 128:17 132:16 **first** 8:4 16:7 18:11 68:2 70:15 85:1 88:3 92:8 93:19 105:13 115:21 128:19 138:16 144:4 146:17ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 240 176:1 193:1 ,1 206:20 213:18 222:7 227:15 228:2 **fit** 119:6 **fits** 98:2 111:12 **five** 73:18 91:9 200:10,13 ,14 **fix** 212:10 **flag-shaped** 180:15 **flange** 137:8 **flat** 180:12 **flexibility** 135:12 **flight** 104:1 **flip** 108:17 **flippantly** 167:17 **floor** 132:18 156:22 **flow** 24:19 125:1 ,10 125:14 142:14 154:9 164:13 168:2 216:8,14 226:3 **fly** 2:18 6:1 ,1 14:20 14:20 15:3 25:18 41:7 50:1 ,16 57:15 92:18 94:12 113:16,16,22 114:5 ,14 131:22 131:22 133:5 ,6,6 133:14 138:5 ,5 142:10,11 144:20 156:7 ,7 157:10,10 163:4,4 165:6,7 176:12,12,17 179:16 181:4,13 181:13 190:11 ,11 **Fly's** 162:21 **focus** 212:16 **focused** 59:5 91:2 94:2 **focusing** 95:16 119:5 **fodder** 48:6 97:9 **folks** 11:13 31:6 49:15 77:17 166:8 209:2 **follow** 77:18 184:22 204:10 **following** 193:3 **foot** 26:19 **footprint** 126:2 **force** 143:20 **forego** 207:17 **foregone** 45:17 62:19 214:21 **foreign** 50:7 107:2 **forever** 18:17

**forgetting** 89:16 **forgot** 118:15 **formal** 10:16 203:13 **formally** 4:7 **format** 75:17 **formed** 208:4 **Forrestal** 1:6 **forth** 39:11 40:2 91:15 98:4 116:20 154:6 180:16 203:15 204:15 207:1 **forthcoming** 70:22 71:21 **forward** 28:13 123:5 ,6 124:22 126:11 127:4,9,14 128:15 133:8 192:2 196:11 197:6 199:17 201:3 207:7 ,11 209:15 213:5 219:19 230:20 **fought** 229:18 **found** 28:6 45:11 55:5 100:22 227:22 **foundation** 220:8 **four** 70:6 71:8 73:7 110:9 111:8 112:8 200:10 **frame** 45:11 72:12 163:16 **framework** 37:5 44:7 ,9 45:5 ,21 47:4 48:9 49:17 72:20 73:21 98:2 121:2 **Frank** 3:1 7:18 **frankly** 171:21 193:16 **free** 27:4 86:9 178:6 198:14 211:1 215:4,11 225:3 **free-standing** 35:12 151:22 **Freimoth** 2:8 **Freimuth** 7:12,12 **friend** 139:5 **friends** 14:17 **front** 101:18 104:8 118:19 119:4 129:5 146:6 **full** 20:16 40:19 48:16 217:9,11

**fully** 62:5 71:2 **function** 34:8 166:13 180:9 213:16,17 216:8 **functional** 126:7 166:6,10 167:3 ,21 180:18 185:20 186:17 **functionality** 43:17 125:21 ,21 **functionally** 125:9 169:6 **functions** 192:11 **fundamental** 38:18 61:15 147:6,10,21 167:18 195:10 **fundamentally** 36:5 37:20 147:22 169:16 204:19 **furnace** 9:5 51:4,7 51:12 **furnaces** 9:15 ,16 50:22 67:7 **further** 45:6 62:1 113:7 118:15 151:7 161:16 184:22 222:11 **future** 61:1 135:12 **G G**  3:2 4:1 89:17 **Gabr** 43:8,8 **gains** 29:5 **Gary** 3:10 5:5 18:20 23:11 27:15 ,16 30:6 32:1 ,2 33:16 34:1 37:19 50:8 77:17 89:16,17 93:1 98:6 102:1 102:19 141:5 ,10 141:16 148:8 159:12,16 173:2,4 208:19 **Gary's** 38:18 40:20 50:19 **gas** 5:6,7 ,8 102:4 **gate** 212:17 **gather** 64:2 95:5 ,5 **gathered** 47:6,11 49:5 **gathering** 47:3 **gauge** 68:13 **gear** 50:10 **general** 27:18 50:15 58:5 73:8 85:13 114:11 115:4

119:22 121:21 179:10 198:1 201:10 203:9 **generally** 82:22 148:16 174:22 224:18 **generate** 64:19 **generated** 64:18 **generation** 125:11 **generic** 163:2 **Geoff** 3:5 5:1 34:12 34:13 127:11 ,16 127:17 **geothermal** 9:15 **getting** 12:9 35:19 76:18 81:7 86:8 107:12 118:5 125:22 161:22 192:2 197:6 229:8 **give** 13:6 48:15 59:14 63:8 65:12 80:18 109:10 129:5 144:6 145:16 191:4 195:16 197:16 206:20 210:1 ,21 211:13 223:11 225:22 **given** 49:9 56:20 70:9 77:20 90:14 169:12 209:21 **gives** 53:22 93:21 135:7 ,11 198:2 **giving** 144:7 **glad** 227:11 **global** 53:20 **globally** 54:19 **go** 4:19 12:21 14:6 15:10 25:12 27:6 31:11 37:18 38:7 44:2,7 49:21 56:2 60:18 67:3 ,14 68:3 69:1 75:7 ,10 80:7 ,20 84:9 90:16 96:4 97:4,4 97:5 ,5 ,22 99:8 102:7 104:2 107:13 ,16,21 108:17 109:7 ,12 112:5 ,10 113:5 ,22 114:18 116:10 118:20 122:12 123:5 ,6,22 128:16 131:3 133:17 136:1 ,14 139:2 140:14 142:1 ,5

145:3 147:20 148:18 149:16,20 149:22 154:6 157:5 158:12 173:7 175:3 177:4 179:6,9 183:2 191:7 192:22 193:10 198:15 206:22 207:20 213:10 215:1 223:14 225:20,21 226:21 228:6,20 **goal** 27:11 65:5 ,6 183:12 212:3 218:6,9,16 **gobs** 50:19 **goes** 27:22 39:15 55:19,21 56:6 57:15 74:11 102:13 105:16 145:5 147:6 150:17 159:13 168:6,7 ,21 176:2 199:15 **going** 9:3 ,6,8 10:13 11:18,20 12:5 ,6 12:10,13 14:2,3 14:17 16:4,5 ,5 ,19 17:3 ,4,5 ,6,13 ,17 19:17 25:19 34:19 34:20,21 36:11 38:2,5 41:18 42:17 43:5 44:2 45:3 46:18 54:18 54:22 56:18 57:2 57:6,7 ,8,16,17 ,17 57:20 58:2,6,7 59:14 64:16,17 65:8,22 66:20 68:11 ,13 70:16,19 74:2 76:12 77:20 79:11 80:10 82:5 82:13 84:8,21 85:5 88:5 ,14 90:2 92:8,21 ,22 95:12 97:12 100:20 103:13 104:3 ,5 ,6 104:16 106:2,6,14 107:13 ,14,15 ,16 108:14 113:22 114:6,10,21 115:15 116:14,15 116:16,16 119:12 123:8 125:7 127:3 133:8 134:19ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 241 135:22 137:7 139:1 140:4 141:3 141:18 143:12,14 146:9,12,19,21 148:7 ,9 149:8 152:19 155:15 157:8 158:11 159:17 162:22 163:3 165:6,7 ,16 166:15 171:6,16 178:14 182:13 183:14 184:7 ,10 185:5 186:15 ,20 190:20 191:22 193:11 194:2,5 195:15 ,18 196:10 196:14,18 197:10 199:6,7 ,17 ,18 201:21 203:11 204:7 206:19,21 207:4 208:1 ,17 209:4,18,20,21 210:8,9,15 ,20 212:6,7 214:10,12 221:12 224:9 226:5 ,6 228:8,17 228:19 **good** 14:17 15:15 21:11 27:20 29:10 46:21 48:13 50:13 58:16 63:3 85:13 89:22 93:15 99:16 105:8 109:9 117:2 130:4 147:4,7 ,17 149:1 172:21 178:16 198:11 211:17 212:8,8 217:6 223:22 225:16 230:3 **Goodman** 3:4 5:15 5:15 23:2 31:22 44:6 46:13 105:18 **gotcha** 179:13 181:1 **government** 106:21 199:1 **grab** 54:5 **granular** 76:20 82:21 **graph** 127:6 **grappling** 73:13 79:5 **great** 56:10 60:21 70:12 75:16 81:11 87:3 91:13 95:9 101:7 115:18 122:14 129:18 ,18

143:3 155:17 204:3 208:21 **greater** 95:17 145:20 **greatly** 26:13 **green** 213:18 **Greenheck** 3:9 5:20 17:16 38:15 86:13 89:10 92:6 108:5 119:15 123:7 134:6 149:18 160:12 162:19 225:2 **Greg** 7:4 29:12 30:20,22 39:5 46:14 54:20 74:9 79:15 81:6 89:16 97:16,17 102:20 126:13 ,15 184:3 189:19,20 225:21 **grid** 47:12 101:19 101:21 102:4 166:15 **Groh** 8:16 10:8 11:3 13:7 ,11 ,14 15:19 19:7 ,10 20:2,13 20:20 22:15 28:15 28:16 29:10,11 35:4 36:12,13 37:4 38:11 51:22 72:18 73:3 98:20 99:3 ,7 122:19,20 124:2,5 130:3 131:8,16,18,21 140:20 141:4 142:19 143:17 ,22 144:15 ,18 147:1 148:3 ,4 158:10,16 158:20 159:1 175:14,18 177:7 183:8 193:2,10 194:16,17 196:8 197:13 ,21 201:11 201:12,17 204:1 209:8 211:4 213:9 213:13 214:3 218:4,5 219:5 221:6,15 ,20 222:2 222:5 **group** 1:2 4:3 ,18 8:2 17:18 23:15 27:22 28:4,11 30:18 32:15 35:20 48:14 53:5 ,12,13 56:20 61:9 68:7 70:10 71:22 84:15 85:19

89:9 91:1 94:8 96:1 100:16 101:11 102:2 103:14 104:18 123:9,15 140:10 144:4 149:20 201:9 203:4,6 206:21 207:18 213:3 217:16 218:11 220:17 ,20 **group's** 86:19 **groups** 13:21 54:15 61:22 89:20 90:1 90:7 ,7 99:11 ,13 203:3 221:21 **guess** 4:8 11:15 14:21 22:3 46:21 50:8 64:12 78:17 85:15 86:2,22 88:18 90:5 91:18 102:5 107:6 110:14 132:3 ,10 134:21 143:10 144:3 145:1 ,8 146:1 149:19 150:12 155:15 157:1 160:11 ,12 166:15 167:13 183:19 185:6 186:19 191:7 ,22 192:5 195:18 196:14 200:17 210:22 **guessing** 27:19 197:19 **guy** 86:16 164:16 **guys** 11:16,20 12:10 14:5 ,10 53:8 63:19 66:3 86:8 100:12 109:21 119:10 128:14 131:12 132:3 134:11 143:21 151:22 161:20 169:2 171:5 173:14,17 196:4 207:1 208:5 ,9 210:22,22 211:1 219:22 221:13 229:4 230:12 **H half**  13:2,5 41:17 57:4 93:10,12 158:20 **hand** 149:6 165:11

166:18 **hand-in-hand** 31:11 **handle** 78:8 203:8 **handler** 156:10 170:1 **handlers** 92:3 93:18 156:16 **handling** 3:12 6:9 97:21 130:11 ,14 157:22 165:16 176:5 **happen** 37:11 172:3 176:13 183:3 ,4 186:15 187:1 **happened** 86:4 110:11 **happening** 189:10 217:21 **happens** 39:20 156:15 157:22 172:2 **happily** 173:8 **happy** 18:18,19 30:3 36:20 37:14 37:18 62:8 92:15 105:12 130:1 219:19 221:11 223:2 227:2 **hard** 45:11 54:16 58:16 63:1 66:6 67:18 97:6 135:2 148:16 182:3 229:17 **harder** 119:12 121:5 **Hartlein** 2:19 6:6,6 14:13 103:5 ,10 112:12,12,16 115:6,6 121:17 ,17 123:12 124:9,9 125:7 126:13 130:18,18 132:19 132:19 135:1 ,2 136:19,19 138:1 ,4 138:4,7 ,7 141:10 141:19 143:2,14 146:8,18 147:4 157:15 ,15 158:8 161:15 ,22 162:4,8 164:3 ,3 ,21 ,21 171:19,20 172:7 172:11 ,13 ,17 ,21 173:4 185:13 ,15 185:15 186:9,17 192:21 193:8,11 193:16 203:18,19

204:3 223:5 ,5 ,18 226:14,14 229:13 229:13 **hat** 167:8,8 **hate** 19:5 208:18 **Hauer** 6:21 ,21 16:15 ,15 29:1 60:4 87:17 ,17 103:17 ,17 128:6,6 151:9,9 154:18 ,18 155:12 189:7 ,8 227:20,20 228:15 **HAUVER** 17:8 60:4 **head** 14:14 67:13 114:11 127:7 140:12 200:1 205:22 **headed** 110:17 115:1 171:7 **headings** 99:15 112:21 **hear** 8:10 22:18 36:8 200:19 202:15 **heard** 11:13 20:17 72:16 76:10 119:21 178:2 184:2,9 191:13 196:22 205:16 224:3 **hearing** 46:6 56:22 72:7 ,8 79:14 88:21 117:14 123:2 140:21 163:9 170:4 201:8 201:9 **Hearings** 6:15 ,18 7:13 ,15 **heartbeat** 149:9 **heat** 9:14 31:9 50:17 57:3 148:6 189:9,14 **heaters** 26:20 **heating** 2:18 3:2 5:3 34:4,9 40:21 50:12 51:2 57:2 73:17 74:15 145:9 183:22 **help** 18:6 21:17 30:5 36:19 37:18 37:19 38:8,8 62:8 76:1 81:2,3 82:9 84:5 86:11 92:11 100:8,14 107:15 127:11 151:6ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 242 153:13 154:12 202:3 ,18 207:3 208:5 ,14 209:13 209:14 214:7 222:22 227:1 **helped** 194:19 **helpful** 30:7 68:21 69:2,7 ,11 79:17 79:18 123:6 209:11 **helps** 30:12,16 226:1 227:12 **HEPA** 41:19 **hesitate** 177:22 **hey** 91:10 131:4 185:13 **hi** 8:16 **high** 48:4 80:2 97:9 115:16 125:10 156:10 214:11 219:13 **higher** 98:16 125:13 126:12,17 **highly** 24:12 **hit** 193:22 205:21 **hoc** 222:10 **hold** 10:6 40:10 46:3 **holding** 139:4,16 **holds** 26:1 **holes** 113:4,7 119:3 131:4 **home** 12:9 230:21 **homework** 230:15 **honestly** 14:4 106:1 178:15 210:19 **hope** 38:3 100:6 129:20 **hopefully** 151:6 200:11 230:15 **hoping** 108:15 151:4 193:5 219:17 **horse** 93:12 **horsepower** 47:12 49:6 80:18 91:3 91:20 93:10,11 94:3 ,7 ,13 ,21 ,22 95:6,10,16,19,20 95:20 96:1 ,5 ,15 97:11 99:1 ,4,6 147:2 171:12 209:6 **hospital** 41:18 **host** 16:22 **hour** 99:12,13 103:2 103:13 105:11 ,11 145:21 201:1 202:22 **hours** 11:22 12:1 34:6 50:20 52:20 56:9 73:17 74:13 74:14 83:8,11 ,13 84:16,17 97:14 98:14,16 130:22 **house** 24:17 118:9 176:8 190:22 **housed** 108:14,20 110:2 112:17 114:22 116:17 118:8 132:5 133:19 150:21 156:20 165:2,10 169:21 175:14,15 177:9 196:11 202:13 **houses** 125:5 **housing** 9:21 26:2 79:9 110:8,13 ,19 111:1 112:14 113:12,12,19 114:16,17 118:11 125:4 133:22 151:19 152:9,18 153:5 ,5 ,6 154:5 ,8 154:11 156:1 ,19 159:10 160:22 161:1 162:20 163:10,14,21 164:18 166:9 168:3 ,22 169:7 ,8 169:9,12 170:3 ,6 172:1 174:1 179:3 179:7 180:17 ,19 191:16,17 204:15 **housings** 177:5 192:11 **Howe** 7:1 ,1 **huge** 146:19 **humor** 128:3 **hung** 11:14 **hurricane** 154:21 **hurt** 196:7 **HVAC** 67:4 83:3 156:11 221:9 **hydraulic** 218:7 ,14 218:18 219:2 **Hydraulics** 28:1 **hypothetical** 189:6

**I i.e**  190:2 **idea** 23:2 46:17 65:3 78:1 79:5 83:8 88:14 143:21 155:22 169:9 189:10 205:6 207:5 208:11 **ideal** 42:1 213:1 **Ideally** 77:18 **ideas** 59:13 ,19 62:3 152:22 **identified** 113:4 217:1 **identify** 43:7 114:19 129:17 130:13 203:4 **IEC** 53:21 **ignored** 48:8 **ignoring** 216:3 ,7 **illuminate** 123:20 **imagine** 10:12 70:13 **imagined** 46:22 **impact** 37:10 70:21 78:19 80:16 95:7 96:16 97:6 103:20 130:7 175:21 196:10 197:10 221:9 **impacted** 9:17 196:12 **impacts** 47:15 140:8 **impeller** 32:5 43:22 78:14 79:9 114:15 130:6 153:3 ,4 154:4,8,10 156:15 156:21 158:4 159:9 160:21 163:10,19 168:2 168:14 169:1 173:22 181:9 191:17 **impellers** 43:14 79:7 ,8 80:10 **imperfections** 211:20 **implementation** 212:13 **implemented** 51:21 218:3 220:13 228:22 **implications** 105:21 **implying** 178:19 **import** 79:7 ,8 **important** 12:2,3 23:18 28:11 34:10 52:12 66:12 85:3 123:14 169:15

219:10,11 224:8 224:10 **imports** 55:10 **impose** 8:21 26:5 **imposed** 163:5 **impossible** 45:13 189:18 212:2 **improve** 65:19,20 218:7 ,10 **improvements** 108:12 **improving** 218:14 **inaccurate** 91:10,11 **incentive** 219:9 **inch** 41:17 93:16 181:16 226:4,4,9 226:13 **inches** 41:17 226:7 **incline** 127:13 **include** 36:14 96:4 101:14,14 146:20 162:15 221:9 225:12 **included** 22:13 31:3 31:5 83:6 142:11 142:12 156:17 ,18 170:5 174:6 **includes** 87:19 **including** 117:11 131:13 141:6 173:16 198:15 **inclusive** 113:18 115:14 131:12 179:3 **inconsistent** 121:4 **incorporate** 24:13 **Incorporated** 6:1 ,22 **incorporating** 80:5 **increasing** 125:17 219:2 **increasingly** 194:21 **incumbent** 119:13 **Independence** 1:7 **independent** 143:5 157:17 **independently** 143:8 **index** 214:20 215:1 215:13 216:7 ,18 **indexing** 214:20 **indicate** 60:8 **indicated** 48:9 104:20 **indicates** 227:22 **indicating** 111:22 **indication** 60:9 63:17 69:16 221:1 **individual** 203:14 **industrial** 44:10 74:12 146:20 **industry** 8:19 29:7 39:8 41:20 100:2 107:16 122:1 123:3 131:4 156:11 162:17 164:22 171:21 172:4 179:19 198:2 199:4 219:11 ,12 224:3 **inefficient** 69:19 **infinite** 190:9 **infirmity** 198:18 **influence** 48:20 220:22 **influenced** 129:8 **infomercial** 213:7 **inform** 30:12,16 36:19 38:8 47:7 49:19 62:8 80:3 81:3 82:9 83:20 84:2,5 **information** 46:16 49:19 52:4 62:2 63:2,3 67:18 69:18 81:1 83:1 83:16 88:17 91:14 124:3 131:10 189:5 203:22 227:12 **informed** 47:2 67:18 81:5 97:7 **informing** 221:3 **informs** 49:14 **Ingersoll** 5:10 **initial** 155:10 212:1 **initiate** 193:6 **inlet** 132:7 156:18 168:22 184:17 189:15 **inlets** 114:16 **inline** 112:3 **input** 80:12 210:20 216:14 **inputs** 117:10 **inside** 25:20 87:22 96:19 146:21 152:15 160:1 163:6 **insight** 223:11 **insignificant** 28:2 **installation** 224:4ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 243 **installed** 148:11 159:7 188:16 **installs** 172:9 **Institute** 2:14 3:3 5:4 7:20 28:1 **institutional** 123:18 **integral** 9:21 26:1 ,2 26:3 66:12 151:19 154:7 ,8 156:15 169:7 **intelligence** 173:9 **intend** 201:19 **intent** 208:2 **intention** 156:6 181:4 **interacts** 25:1 169:1 **interested** 16:21 17:2 36:19 47:13 140:21 **interesting** 141:13 **internal** 154:10 204:17 ,21 **International** 2:20 7:3 **interpolation** 54:7 **interpretation** 44:16 156:9 157:1 **intertwined** 22:8 57:16 **intimately** 177:14 **introduce** 8:4 106:15 **introductory** 106:19 **invest** 95:12 96:13 **investigated** 45:6 **investment** 47:17 48:1 95:8 **Investor** 5:6 27:17 **invoice** 56:4 **involve** 75:16 **involved** 211:19 **IOU's** 3:10 **iron** 207:3 **irrelevant** 147:22 **irrespective** 79:12 **isolated** 185:8 212:4 **issue** 12:22 23:10 38:1 45:16 61:15 72:12 76:19 102:1 102:20 148:20 151:22 168:7 203:11 204:12 213:22 220:9 229:12 **issued** 70:3 **issues** 9:5 10:2 11:19 12:9 19:3 71:17 ,18,19 103:3 103:14 136:13 175:5 198:21 199:6 204:14 210:17 211:10 **issuing** 220:22 **item** 88:2,3 **items** 121:10 **its'** 53:7 **Iyama** 3:14 6:13 117:8,17 118:3 152:20,22 153:18 153:21 154:2 216:13 223:15 ,17 223:20 229:1 **J Jakobs**  8:6,6 63:5 67:21 68:9,16 71:5 ,12 168:1 ,13 183:9 **Janet** 2:8 7:12 **January** 73:4,5 128:8 **Jasinski** 3:11 6:10 6:10 118:18 215:7 215:10,10 216:1 ,7 216:20 **Joanna** 2:21 5:21 78:10 87:8 137:15 137:17 145:18 187:3 188:2 **John** 198:6 **Johnson** 2:20 7:2,2 **joined** 106:13 **joke** 12:22 86:14 225:17 **joking** 128:2 **judgments** 63:14 **July** 15:4 17:14 **jump** 38:16 111:3 128:10 134:11 144:10 146:17 178:6 191:8 215:11 225:3 **jumped** 110:8 148:13 184:3 **June** 10:22 11:10 15:4 17:13 70:3 **justification** 224:1 **K keep**  45:22 50:3 55:10 65:10 68:2 77:3 ,6 89:15

104:5 160:17 171:14 195:15 212:3 ,11 215:2 227:16 **keeps** 155:10 211:14 **key** 51:22 **kicked** 186:12 **kicking** 191:10 **kids** 14:18 **Kikeman** 110:6 **kind** 4:9 14:7 17:1 20:19 21:12,14 26:18,22 27:6 38:18 41:8,22 44:4 47:1 48:11 49:19,19 56:19 57:12 58:2 74:3 75:8 76:6 80:1 85:3 88:18,21 89:5 99:14 107:11 108:19 118:2 120:10,19,22 125:16 126:6,20 129:9 131:6 135:7 135:11 137:9 140:5 ,11 143:5 ,6 146:2 150:14 156:8 163:16 173:20 180:9 181:1 185:6 191:22 192:17 195:16 196:14 197:20 198:19 200:20 201:2,6 203:4 205:21 210:17 212:19 214:16 215:7 221:15 222:6 225:6 229:10,13 **kinds** 31:17 48:5 75:11 132:13 148:11 **kit** 43:16 **kitchen** 145:6 **knew** 4:10 77:22 78:7 89:17 **know** 8:22 9:5 ,11 ,12 11:17 ,17 ,18 12:10 12:18 14:2,5 ,16 16:20 17:4,6 18:21 19:6 21:3 21:21 23:5 ,12 24:2,4,11 ,18 25:19 26:17 30:6 32:3 ,6,7 ,8,17 ,18

32:19 33:1 ,2,9 35:15 36:20,22 37:8,8,10 38:3 ,5 39:5 ,6 40:8,20 41:2,12,13 ,14,16 41:20 43:1 ,18 44:8,15 ,22 47:1 48:12,13 49:6 50:8 56:2,16,21 57:11 58:3 ,5 59:16 61:18,18,19 61:20 65:10,17 ,17 65:22 66:1 ,2,6,14 67:10,12,15 ,20 68:7 69:1 ,12,15 69:17 ,17 70:9,11 70:14 74:4 76:20 77:15 ,19 78:6,20 79:3 ,22 80:4,9,20 80:21 81:4,8 82:1 82:1 84:15 85:6 85:21 86:4,14 88:11 89:15 ,19 90:1 ,8,11 91:1 ,5 ,6 91:7 ,9,11 ,19 92:4 93:3 ,8,9,10,17 94:8,10 96:8,12 96:19,20 97:14,19 100:1 ,11 101:2,17 102:11 ,13 ,20 103:13 104:3 106:20 108:11 ,17 109:2,7 ,13 ,14,16 110:1 115:8 117:1 119:11 123:2,3 ,17 126:10 127:5 ,7 ,13 127:15 133:9 135:20 137:6,8,19 140:8 142:14 143:1 ,8 144:12,21 145:5 148:9,16 149:12 150:14 152:18 154:6 155:9,17 157:2,5 158:12 160:1 162:3 164:1 166:5 166:12 167:9,17 168:3 171:22 172:2 173:5 ,10,19 174:2,12,21 177:11 ,13 ,14,19 179:18,21 180:11 180:14,21 181:2 181:14,16 183:19 188:22 189:1 ,2 191:15 ,17 192:1 ,5

192:8,9,15 ,21 193:3 194:6,22 195:11 ,18,20 196:5 ,15 ,18,19,22 197:9 198:5 ,7 ,11 198:14,17 199:12 201:12,18 202:7 ,9 202:11 204:11 ,20 205:1 208:2,9,15 211:16 212:9 213:15 ,16 214:4,5 214:6,16 215:5 217:17 ,20 220:3 220:18 222:19 225:4,18 229:15 **knowing** 214:7 **known** 49:6 **knows** 35:16 97:5 137:9 164:15 **L L**  3:9 **lab** 6:14 16:16,21 23:19 **label** 42:12 60:9 61:1 ,6,13 219:8 **labeled** 129:12 **labeling** 42:11 61:4 **Laboratory** 3:14 **lack** 100:1 138:18 **laid** 130:20 **landed** 131:7 229:19 **language** 179:14 209:10 210:8,10 **large** 24:2 33:14 98:9 167:1 170:2 172:2 **larger** 91:3 98:17 174:6 **Larry** 2:12 6:4 **laser** 150:7 **lastly** 85:16 **late** 12:4 53:18 **Laura** 3:2 5:2 8:15 21:12 28:14,16 29:11 33:6,8 35:3 36:12 44:8 52:5 78:10 95:18 98:21 122:19 123:21 124:8 130:18 141:9 142:17 143:10 144:14 148:3 150:14 158:9 177:4ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 244 192:22 194:17 195:14 197:17 201:4,12 209:7 218:5 **Laura's** 48:17 177:4 **Lawrence** 3:14 6:13 **lawyer** 198:18 **LCC** 221:8 **leads** 226:16 **learn** 59:13 62:12 70:16 171:6 **learned** 45:7 **leave** 85:15 88:13 104:12 155:12 173:13 **leaves** 104:1 **leaving** 18:11 90:3 92:9 104:5 ,13 ,21 **led** 49:17 226:18 229:22 **left** 4:21 106:13 107:10 160:14 188:7 195:21 220:9 **left-hand** 112:8 **legal** 17:5 **lengthy** 201:13 **lesser** 182:20 **let's** 10:9 12:21 14:9 25:12 32:5 53:2,8 54:1 ,9,11 ,15 63:8 85:1 ,6,8 86:19 90:9 92:20 94:16 105:10,10,10,13 105:14,14 107:10 107:10 111:3 ,4 113:14 116:10 121:21 122:12 138:16 144:5 147:5 156:9,13 ,20 163:12,14 179:6 181:9 184:13 188:11 190:18 194:6 208:4 218:18 219:3 221:17 224:18 **level** 32:20 49:2 80:3 ,22 97:10 117:16 135:6,8,13 135:21 161:10 182:9,11 185:20 186:11 ,17 191:3 191:16,20 192:5 194:13 195:11 213:4 214:11 218:17 ,22 219:13 **levels** 76:16,21 ,22

96:3 155:1 185:21 193:15 194:18 207:13 218:13 219:17 224:15 **life** 95:15 160:18 **light** 57:6 **limit** 167:12 209:4 **limitation** 190:1 **limitations** 190:5 220:15 **limiting** 190:8 **Lindahl** 2:11 7:16 7:16 **line** 30:21 45:14 55:18 68:1 95:19 110:14 114:14 117:4 132:16 133:11 178:7 181:15 212:3 **lines** 23:9 135:7 **linked** 59:4 **links** 228:12 **list** 62:7 76:11 ,13 80:1 ,2,4 84:1 97:18 102:21 104:19 108:13 117:20 118:1 119:2 120:2,2,7 ,9 120:13 121:7 124:21 125:1 129:21 133:21 141:11 146:10,15 146:19,22 147:7 ,8 147:22 177:12 **listed** 55:20 98:4 **listing** 93:20 153:1 **little** 11:4 19:4 21:13 26:21 35:20 38:18 47:18,19 50:7 53:18 102:1 106:18 113:6 120:21 127:21 129:12 130:19 135:11 ,19 136:5 141:15 ,16 161:15 171:5 173:5 179:15 180:22 184:4 188:2 190:13 192:13 193:3 203:13 206:16 208:13 214:7 ,15 222:9 223:11 229:15 **live** 18:16 26:18 213:2,4 **LLC** 3:5 ,6

**load** 30:10,11 33:14 37:9 47:19,21 48:22 49:9 54:1 57:1 ,7 ,8,9 58:9,11 63:16 71:15 75:2 76:18 77:2,4,7 ,11 77:15 ,16,22 78:5 78:7 83:13 85:8 85:12,13 91:8 95:11 96:1 97:13 98:10 99:6 121:9 136:6,10 140:4 167:1 **loads** 52:21 **lock** 19:2 **logic** 126:11 **long** 63:12,19 64:12 64:14,19,22 84:1 84:1 95:22 129:21 132:12 140:4 146:13 163:9 170:7 ,10 175:16 175:22 200:2 229:17 ,17 **longer** 76:22 127:13 176:14 196:4 216:3 **look** 9:5 14:19 23:19 45:8 52:15 53:5 60:12 61:6,13 62:8,16 64:17 69:6 73:14 81:20 100:13 105:15 112:6 121:6 122:10 126:21 143:17 150:2,15 152:14 174:17 193:15 195:16 197:11 201:21 202:1 209:6 210:14,17 217:7 218:1 220:5 221:13 222:16,17 223:4 226:3 ,5 ,7 226:22 228:20,21 **looked** 69:1 73:9 100:22 119:2 130:6 137:2 160:20 222:16,17 **looking** 30:12 35:5 35:6,7 ,11 ,13 41:22 42:1 ,1 52:13 58:8 67:16 75:21 ,21 82:4 91:20 94:9 101:1 108:13 126:16

151:14 152:1 176:4 187:15 192:13 194:4,20 195:7 209:9 214:9 226:18 **looks** 4:14 13:7 76:2 200:16 **loophole** 40:22 45:17 86:7 **loopholes** 9:2 40:18 46:8 **loose** 212:1 **lose** 12:10 **loss** 54:2,12 **losses** 54:5 ,9 162:21 163:2 165:22 174:11 216:10,11 **lost** 31:1 173:15 **lot** 9:10 25:19 26:9 35:16 42:3 43:14 47:17 ,19,20 49:2 49:4 59:13 60:22 62:13 ,14,21 63:20 66:5 69:13 70:9 72:7 74:11 ,14 77:19 78:5 83:22 86:3 91:3 95:13 96:1 ,13 98:16 101:16 115:15 116:21 121:19 122:22 124:12 127:3 129:4 145:7 178:20 180:11 182:2 194:1 ,5 ,13 196:12 197:4,8 201:18 202:12 209:13 210:7 ,12 210:13 229:18 **lots** 125:10 129:7 ,7 129:7 130:21 ,22 130:22 166:1 179:19 201:7 **louver** 168:15 **louvers** 155:13 168:2,21 189:11 **lovely** 160:9 **low** 47:12 48:2 **lower** 24:14,22 31:15 125:13 164:6 165:10 209:4 **luggage** 201:13 **lunch** 15:8,12 89:18 89:22 99:12 103:2 103:13 105:10 106:11

**LYAMA** 6:13 **M magnitude**  67:17 **main** 147:1 **major** 45:16 66:13 215:15 **majority** 34:6 **makeup** 145:6 **making** 8:22 49:8 65:8 113:17 136:8 178:1 186:20 188:20 194:8 211:17 230:15 **malleable** 97:3 **manage** 171:15 ,16 **manner** 74:20 **manufacturer** 25:10 32:5 37:10 45:13 46:9 47:16 54:3 ,4,5 60:10 61:16 68:18,19 75:20 78:18 79:13 148:17 157:22 158:1 172:9,16 **manufacturer's** 36:6,10 **manufacturers** 8:21 10:1 22:11 23:5 ,7 30:4,8 31:18 37:16 43:12,13 ,14 46:15 47:8 58:19 60:5 ,15 66:16 67:5 70:7 ,12 74:5 79:6 81:19 83:9 97:8 103:21 210:21 **manufactures** 144:9 **manufacturing** 3:4 48:1 **map** 121:5 **mapped** 118:3 119:10 **marginal** 78:8 **Mark** 2:13 ,18 6:1 ,2 14:20 25:17 35:16 39:4 41:5 42:15 46:21 52:12 57:14 67:6 91:10 92:17 94:1 113:16 115:9 115:10,17 116:6 117:22 118:14,22 119:15 120:1 ,15 124:10,13 128:16 130:9 131:14,22ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 245 132:11 133:3 ,5 ,5 133:6 134:3 138:5 142:11 144:19,20 151:12,13 156:7 157:10 161:10 162:21 163:4 164:2 165:7 176:12 181:13 190:11 205:4 **Mark's** 122:15 152:3 **market** 23:20 45:9 47:22 48:22 58:18 58:21 62:12,12 76:21 78:2,8 82:7 91:12,16 93:17 127:20 185:22 195:9 196:3 203:21 205:18 208:7 **marketplace** 9:1 55:4 **markets** 33:15 **Marley** 7:16 **mash** 129:9 **massive** 146:10,22 **material** 97:21 130:11 ,14 **math** 91:9 **matrix** 130:21 **matter** 30:13 115:13 132:6 135:21 136:11 175:15 176:14 190:16 194:3 ,13 194:14 **Mauer** 2:21 5:21 ,21 78:11 87:8 137:16 138:3 145:18 187:3 ,11 ,14,18 **maximize** 70:20 **maximizes** 47:14 **maximizing** 27:5 **maximum** 31:15 41:15 43:2 63:17 77:5 ,7 78:1 **McNeil** 3:12 6:8,8 **mean** 14:1 ,2 17:4 18:15 20:7 22:8 26:1 35:8 38:1 ,5 41:9 58:8 62:3 67:4,13 ,16 76:2 82:15 83:9 89:22 91:22 94:8,20,21 103:5 106:5 110:22 115:5 118:11 123:8

131:9 144:4 148:15 153:5 155:7 ,20 156:4 157:3 168:19 169:2,16 173:7 175:11 178:15 181:6 183:9 185:9 186:1 197:7 203:21 206:6,17 208:7 210:12,13 213:20 218:16 219:14 222:7 223:17 226:15 230:11 **meaning** 125:10 153:10 162:10 170:13 ,13 **meaningful** 58:7 208:6 224:16 **means** 101:16 155:12 206:4,15 210:10 214:6 **meant** 157:5 **measure** 27:19 31:4 31:6 73:15 74:19 75:16 76:3 77:20 122:5 ,7 **measured** 75:3 93:4 228:5 **measurement** 82:2 **measures** 74:20 **measuring** 132:21 **mechanical** 162:13 171:9,17 **mechanism** 163:20 **meet** 69:9 99:13 104:14,18 172:14 172:19 182:11 191:3 **meeting** 1:1 ,2 2:1 10:22 12:4,7 ,14 15:20 16:7 17:12 18:11 ,11 19:5 20:10,11 ,20 40:8 73:5 103:19 104:11 138:18 206:22 207:7 209:12,17 210:6 217:7 222:13 ,20 223:19 229:5 **meetings** 10:18 11:15 13:5 16:1 21:8 98:1 **meets** 182:9 183:1 **Meg** 3:7 5:16 76:8,9 88:9,11 102:9 104:9 116:19 **Meg's** 77:18 79:22 89:4 120:22 **member** 43:4 70:22 95:8 96:17 **members** 8:2 30:8,9 37:17 47:16 48:1 48:8 49:1 53:12 63:13 64:4 70:15 71:8 95:21 123:16 123:16 141:1 192:14 196:13 202:17 ,20 203:12 203:14 204:12,14 209:14 210:4 211:8 220:20 228:3 **memorialized** 121:2 **memory** 123:18 **mention** 50:9 **mentioned** 42:15 44:8 52:12,12 104:4 200:18 222:14 **messing** 27:6 **met** 219:2 **method** 9:19 53:19 54:1 ,7 ,11 ,16 60:16 66:8,10 74:22 75:7 76:6 79:21 85:17 134:10,11 162:5 162:11 **methodology** 56:19 74:18 217:15 220:6 **methods** 39:8 75:11 **metric** 9:19 27:9 35:12 85:16 121:10 138:11 155:9 213:10,15 213:15 ,19,20,21 214:2,18 215:2,3 215:16 216:5 ,12 216:21 217:11 219:7 ,13 ,16,21 223:22 224:8,20 226:18 **metrics** 33:4 214:4 **mic** 11:7 43:5 ,7 83:4 99:18 104:15 113:11 139:13 150:2 200:5 204:4 215:7 **Michael** 3:9 **Michigan** 7:11

**microphone** 139:5 **mics** 8:3 **mid** 18:9 **middle** 64:6 101:10 126:6 **midweek** 210:2 **Mike** 5:20 11:11 17:16 27:14 38:15 84:6 86:13 87:18 89:10 92:6 99:9 99:22 101:5 108:5 110:7 111:19 114:3 115:17 119:15 123:7 124:17 126:9 127:1 128:13 133:3 134:6 146:16 149:7 ,18 153:15 155:6 159:16 160:12 162:18 163:7 164:3 ,14 166:2 177:3 ,21 179:8 183:18 185:5 ,13 188:1 191:6 195:13 225:2 227:13 228:17 **Mike's** 176:3 **Miller** 8:9,9,12 **million** 25:9 **mind** 46:22 84:7 ,21 118:6 121:11 134:8 135:15 150:16 206:3 209:3 211:15 212:11 229:18 **minimal** 125:11 205:6 **minimize** 70:20 **minimizing** 47:15 103:20 **minimum** 23:13 77:22 92:21 155:1 171:16 **minute** 26:19 91:9 150:15 200:15 223:15 **minutes** 4:6,7 10:3 13:20,20 87:16 123:22 197:14 200:3 ,4,10,13 ,14 222:8 **mis-mapped** 128:22 **mischaracterize** 215:12 **misguided** 179:5

**mish** 129:9 **missed** 14:21 205:4 **missing** 12:1 228:12 **mixed** 125:1 **mixing** 44:21 45:3 115:11 **mode** 9:8 73:18 74:15 75:4 93:1 ,2 **model** 23:8 56:12 169:12 171:7 ,11 171:14 178:15 ,16 181:17 ,18,19 **models** 171:8 181:15 ,19 195:8 **modified** 32:6 **modular** 118:12 **moment** 125:2 149:1 179:21 **Monday** 11:14,18 12:8 18:2,3 ,6,16 20:9 209:21 **Mondays** 13:8 **money** 96:13 **month** 15:3 64:15 **months** 89:6,8 191:10 197:8 207:21 **morning** 4:5 8:17 10:13 21:12 84:16 144:20 184:4 193:4 198:6 **morning's** 148:14 **Morrison** 3:1 7:4,18 7:18 30:22 46:17 126:15 189:20 **Morten** 43:8 **motor** 2:10 40:4 49:7 52:16 53:2,3 53:12,15 54:3 ,4 60:12,15 101:15 141:17 156:22 162:10,15 171:8 171:12,22 172:15 172:16 173:1 213:17 217:18,18 217:19 **motors** 40:9 43:15 54:2,10 61:7 217:20 218:20 **mousetrap** 164:19 164:20 **mouth** 122:16 **move** 4:21 12:21 17:14 18:22 28:13 68:2,13 121:21ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 246 125:17 128:14 130:13 148:1 165:9 185:9 191:19 192:2 197:5 207:7 ,10 213:5 219:19 230:17 ,20 **moved** 15:1 21:6 46:1 214:19 **movement** 5:11 166:10,21 168:9 **mover** 160:3 **movers** 160:1 **moving** 19:4 142:7 167:15 ,21 193:6 201:2 **Multi-Wing** 43:9 **multiple** 43:16 92:19,19 115:14 216:22 **multiplying** 33:12 **mystery** 92:14 **N N**  4:1 **nail** 205:22 **naive** 100:1 **name** 4:20 22:21 23:1 33:7 118:15 **nameplate** 75:10 78:4 82:5 **names** 89:16 **NASEO** 8:10 **National** 3:14 5:16 6:14 **Natural** 3:7 **nature** 180:19 204:9 **Navigant** 3:11 6:10 215:11 223:7 227:22 **near** 13:16 **nearly** 45:13 166:11 **necessarily** 14:11 21:18 24:2 63:18 72:8,9 87:11 115:3 119:11 156:3 159:6 168:19 178:21 204:8 210:15 218:15 **necessary** 59:12 60:2,2 111:1 135:14 154:7 186:2 **need** 15:19 17:8 20:12 29:16 30:4 30:18 37:11 48:15 58:3 65:14 66:14 66:15 71:9 74:3 76:12,16 82:3 85:14 89:7 90:9 90:11 ,12 102:18 104:11 ,14 109:16 114:7 ,17 115:5 ,22 116:18 122:9 129:16 153:11 174:22 176:9 182:2 191:18 197:1 ,4 205:7 206:1 207:18 210:20 211:8 213:4 217:9 221:12,16 226:22 **needed** 37:16 47:1 48:12 61:1 71:1 169:7 218:20 **needs** 23:15 32:7 37:20 55:6 90:14 100:16 157:8 165:9,9 182:11 208:15 ,16 222:9 224:21 **negative** 47:15 **negotiated** 17:3 128:12 **negotiating** 220:1 **negotiation** 16:20 17:6 **negotiations** 13:3 107:2 177:13 **NEMA** 52:10 54:15 **nervous** 180:22 192:13 **net** 27:11 **never** 35:11 38:2 77:9 79:2 88:4 93:2 157:12 **Nevermind** 18:4 **Nevertheless** 205:21 **new** 2:13 4:15 6:2 72:9 115:10 116:6 118:22 120:1 ,15 121:4 124:18 130:9 131:14 132:11 134:3 151:13 191:11 192:17 205:5 **Newcomb** 3:13 5:18 **news** 208:21 **nice** 15:21 16:2,21 48:13 **Nick** 7:1 144:9

**Nidec** 2:10 3:8 7:7 ,8 171:5 **night** 14:15 21:15 **nit-picky** 115:5 **nitty-gritty** 219:15 **NODA** 29:22 62:17 108:6 117:19 118:1 ,2 119:9 121:3 122:2 128:19 129:16 130:12 138:13 155:8 191:9 215:21 218:3 220:12,19 221:1 ,2 222:16,16 223:10 227:21 228:10,20 **nodding** 158:7 178:5 **nods** 114:11 **nominal** 217:10,13 **non-ducted** 119:10 122:3 ,6 132:22 133:2,10 134:19 **non-issue** 104:6 **non-regulated** 88:15 140:16 142:9 144:5 ,8,16 145:2,3 ,12 148:10 148:12 170:17 **non-starter** 36:7 **noon** 11:16,21 12:8 12:11 13:10 14:7 15:7 ,9,20 16:7 ,10 16:14 18:5 92:9 **NOPR** 208:1 213:11 221:5 **normal** 15:9 **north** 194:5 **noted** 28:1 96:7 146:3 **notes** 173:18 **notice** 199:22 **noticed** 138:12 223:9 **NRDC** 3:7 76:9 **number** 33:12,12 33:17 42:5 ,5 55:11 ,20 60:19 65:18 87:5 90:9 90:21 91:6 92:2 93:16 98:9 100:2 100:11 104:13 105:13 ,13 113:4 140:8,8 146:17 152:7 160:13 191:2 193:21

197:10,11 221:18 221:18 **numbers** 47:12 61:10 **O O**  4:1 **o'clock** 89:21 90:10 103:19,22 106:9 **object** 140:6 **objecting** 122:20 **objection** 106:7 147:10,13 **objections** 200:4 **objective** 27:21 136:12 **objectives** 136:3 **observation** 87:9 88:19 **obviously** 52:10,18 52:19 54:17 62:20 157:6,17 186:7 **occasion** 228:6 **occurs** 172:12 **oddball** 101:17 **OEM** 23:8 24:13 30:10 43:14,21 74:5 78:14,18 80:4,20 210:22 **OEM's** 46:18 221:9 **offer** 16:22 48:2 93:10 167:17 **offered** 169:11 176:10,22 **Office** 6:15 ,17 7:13 7:15 **officer** 34:16 127:18 **offline** 222:3 **oh** 11:8 15:21 18:1 75:7 86:15 109:20 128:3 132:16 154:16 158:16 171:1 180:1 192:5 194:2 205:13 230:5 **okay** 4:13 ,17 8:1 ,11 8:13 10:4 11:5 13:3 ,11 14:19,19 15:3 16:3 17:14 17:21 18:2 19:13 20:22 21:6 22:17 23:22 25:18 30:20 33:6 34:12 39:1 40:3 41:5 44:1 46:19 48:14 54:2 57:14 58:12 63:6

65:13 66:22 68:9 68:14,15 72:5 76:8 85:13 86:17 86:21 88:9,18 90:5 ,7 91:1 94:12 94:18 95:3 96:20 97:16 98:13 ,19 102:5 ,17 103:10 104:9 105:16,17 106:7 ,12 107:4 108:3 ,12 109:5 ,19 109:21 111:14,14 112:20 113:1 ,14 114:3 ,10,19 117:13 118:17 120:12,17 126:8 128:3 ,17 131:16 131:18 133:14 136:2,2,16 138:3 139:7 ,8,17 ,21 140:2 143:17 144:2,2,19 145:15 146:16 148:22 149:14 150:13 151:2 158:8 160:15 161:14 162:18,22 172:13 173:6 178:2,6 179:6 182:8,17 ,21 184:1 ,1 ,7 189:14 189:15 191:6 193:11 194:6 196:22 197:15 200:2,16 201:10 203:2 204:3 205:11 222:1 ,2,5 223:17 227:12 230:3 ,20 **old** 199:12 **once** 16:4 127:10 171:16 206:19 **ones** 85:2 98:5 ,17 140:15 **ongoing** 207:14 **Oops** 133:17 **open** 8:3 27:4 43:5 ,6 46:10 63:6 94:15 143:12 165:13 ,14 194:11 228:12,13 **open-minded** 208:16 **opened** 209:2 228:10 **opening** 37:14 84:10,14ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 247 **operate** 25:6,7 26:6 77:10 78:4 143:5 **operated** 75:14 141:17 **operating** 57:21 59:7 ,10 62:17 73:17 75:5 77:21 80:13 ,13 83:8,13 97:13 187:7 ,16 **operation** 58:1 75:13 76:3 98:15 98:17 148:5 **operator** 77:9 **opinion** 21:19 61:12 74:14 99:20,21 103:12 132:21 175:2 189:3 ,7 210:15 **opinions** 59:16,20 59:21 60:1 99:21 **opportunity** 28:9 34:11 69:21 78:9 198:3 **opposed** 166:11 226:17 **option** 43:11 ,21 139:19 198:5 ,10 **optional** 175:1 **options** 15:15 176:10 201:2 **oranges** 44:21 **order** 23:16 29:4 30:3 48:15 57:4 67:17 89:7 135:12 162:13 179:4 193:13 194:10 221:14 **ordering** 43:16 **organization** 33:7 **original** 207:16 **originally** 75:18 130:10 **ought** 28:2,8 49:21 96:10 145:16 199:16 **outage** 154:21 **outcome** 76:4 220:4 220:11 221:4 **outlet** 132:7 133:2 133:22 134:15 ,18 137:4,8,11 156:18 165:22 184:17 225:10,13 ,15 **outlets** 133:1 **outs** 100:11 154:15 **outset** 44:22 45:4 95:1

**outside** 57:11 74:8 155:13 163:20 166:21 207:15 **outward** 164:11 **overall** 24:8,14 31:3 31:14 40:6 65:13 136:11 ,11 183:11 189:16 **overnight** 21:15 223:1 **overview** 50:13 **Owned** 5:6 27:17 **P P**  4:1 **P.M** 104:1 **Pacific** 5:6 **package** 9:13 **packaged** 9:12 25:20 26:16 92:20 **page** 110:10 123:4 **pages** 146:13 **painful** 129:21 **Pam** 2:6 6:19 **paper** 218:2 **Pardon** 19:9 **park** 223:18 **parse** 120:8 **part** 5:10 10:13 26:2,3 ,8 32:15 41:13 49:16 50:13 51:22 53:4 54:1 55:20,20 56:6 58:9,10 62:20 65:18 73:3 75:2 79:1 87:10 93:6,6 94:5 98:10 119:7 123:10,16 132:10 134:7 151:19 152:9 155:7 156:19 157:4 159:10 160:4 163:20 166:9,13 167:13 ,22 168:7 ,8 168:10 175:1 181:14 190:15 198:15 ,15 212:21 214:13 225:4,6 **parte** 73:5 **participants** 123:18 **participate** 123:19 **participated** 106:22 123:15 **particular** 23:7 27:10 33:11 76:3 76:4 78:22 85:5

111:16,18 147:18 150:13 159:5 ,19 165:8 212:5 **parties** 36:19 202:22 **parts** 55:10 143:9 151:18 153:1 ,10 153:11 154:2 167:19 170:6 174:2,4,20 206:6 **party** 202:18 **pass** 127:6 227:15 **pass/fail** 42:4 **passed** 219:15 **pasted** 109:15 **path** 49:17 113:6 143:15 **pathway** 175:4 **patience** 8:17 **Paul** 2:11 7:16 **PBER** 214:5 215:19 216:3 **peak** 57:5 ,8,18 58:9 59:6,8 135:10 **peeked** 108:19 **people** 4:9 12:16,19 15:7 16:11 ,21 17:2 20:17 ,17 22:21 42:4 44:4 47:2 59:19 68:4,6 72:6,11 ,12,15 86:5 87:5 89:3 ,6 89:12,13 90:3 91:5 99:15 100:18 103:2 104:4,12,20 105:7 106:20 122:21 ,22 139:4 139:16 140:6 147:9 162:3 169:18 173:9 175:11 ,13 179:13 194:1 ,6 198:14 200:2,18 201:8 209:3 210:6 220:17 222:15 **People's** 149:5 **perceived** 38:19 **percent** 30:10 **percentage** 60:11 60:22 65:21 189:22 **perfect** 52:14,17 ,17 54:9 211:17 212:17 **perform** 39:8 125:9 125:12 168:11 180:8 186:11 **performance** 24:14 27:8 34:4,9 74:19 125:17 126:1 132:8 163:3 182:10,12 188:7 224:5 **performs** 31:6 166:9 **period** 67:12 103:2 177:1 211:20 212:12 **periodically** 135:21 **permitted** 185:17 **perpendicular** 115:4,7 **Persful** 7:21 ,21 **person** 19:2 43:5 54:10 68:17 **personal** 12:18 175:2 **personally** 49:22 84:17 **perspective** 38:17 53:2 66:4 77:2 125:20 126:5 132:3 194:20 226:21 227:5 **pertinences** 35:10 **Pete** 2:7 7:6 **Petrillo** 8:16 10:8 11:3 13:7 ,11 ,14 15:19 19:7 ,10 20:2,13 ,20 22:15 28:15 ,16 29:10,11 35:4 36:12,13 37:4 38:11 51:22 52:6 72:18 73:3 98:20,22 99:3 ,7 122:19,19 124:2,5 130:3 131:8,16,18 131:21 140:20 141:4 142:19 143:17 ,22 144:15 144:18 147:1 148:3 ,3 158:10,16 158:20 159:1 175:14,18 177:7 183:8 193:2,10 194:16,17 196:8 197:13 ,21 201:11 201:12,17 204:1 209:8 211:4 213:9 213:13 218:4,5 219:5 221:6,15 ,20 222:2,5

**Petrillo-Groh** 3:2 5:2,2 **PETROLLO** 214:3 **PhD's** 229:19 **philosophical** 193:14 **philosophy** 196:19 **phone** 210:4 **phrase** 211:14 **physical** 153:2 190:18 **physics** 189:10 **pick** 21:11 **picking** 8:14 102:15 120:22 **picture** 82:7 84:19 85:2 87:19 89:18 147:21 151:14 158:14 168:17 179:10 180:4 196:21 **pictured** 172:22 173:3 **pictures** 158:12 213:18 **piece** 38:20,20 77:8 79:1 92:20 140:17 143:8 145:5 146:11 ,21 150:22 152:12 160:5 173:16 **pieces** 132:18 **pigeon-holed** 113:3 **piggy-back** 227:14 **piggy-backed** 89:4 **pike** 217:18 **pile** 151:18 **pillow** 14:15 **pipeline** 102:4 **pitch** 208:8,10 **place** 32:10 40:7 55:4 99:17 117:2 122:1 207:8 219:19 **places** 146:10 165:14 **plan** 113:7 209:19 **planning** 11:16 **plans** 81:22 **plate** 101:11 **play** 48:10,11 167:20 **playground** 149:13 **plays** 177:16 **please** 146:5 218:6ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 248 222:16,17 223:4 **plenum** 133:20 157:17 164:22 165:12,17 ,20,21 166:1 181:17 184:13 ,14 190:17 191:1 **plug** 69:13 111:12 215:5 **podium** 230:8 **point** 22:18 23:12 25:12,16 26:21 27:12 29:10 32:1 32:2,16,18 34:17 35:4 38:11 ,19 42:14 45:12 46:8 46:14 50:19 52:15 52:19 54:8,13 57:22 59:10 61:13 61:16,19,22 62:18 64:12 75:13 76:14 77:10,18 79:22 80:13 ,13 82:2 83:13 87:15 88:10 90:13 91:11 98:8 102:11 ,21 103:15 106:8 110:20 113:17 115:22 120:9 122:21 128:17 136:10,20 138:14 139:18 146:1 147:7 148:15 ,17 150:2 152:11 158:2,3 ,4 161:6 165:1 ,1 ,7 169:4,13 ,17 172:17 173:4 177:10 182:13 186:3 ,20 187:7 ,7 187:10,16,19,20 188:3 193:7 ,9 194:7 ,16 196:3 200:19,22 207:1 ,2 209:14 214:11 ,22 216:15 224:7 228:10 229:16,17 **pointed** 93:1 160:3 **pointing** 124:17 **points** 32:1 54:8 65:21 73:14,15 169:4 172:19 **policy** 34:16 37:2 45:19 127:18 **pontificate** 223:11 **Pontillo** 2:6 6:19,19 **poor** 164:20 **portion** 166:14 178:16 **pose** 144:3 **position** 35:1 37:2 71:10 73:7 106:2 124:19 **possible** 29:14 60:20 97:7 177:12 184:12 189:12,17 202:1 **possibly** 23:9 172:9 172:10 198:4 199:19 **potential** 23:14 28:19 30:1 32:3 33:3 45:16 99:14 135:5 148:10 160:7 186:21 196:1 **potentially** 32:15 35:21 98:16 137:3 138:11 140:16 185:10 **power** 9:9 31:2 33:11 35:5 53:16 77:8 80:12 87:19 87:20 150:16,17 150:18,20 151:17 158:18 159:2,5 ,8 159:11 ,12 160:16 162:13 ,13 216:14 **powered** 141:16 142:20,21 **powers** 142:21 **practical** 59:1 69:10 **practice** 225:5 **practices** 24:9 224:4 224:5 **pragmatic** 60:14,20 **pragmatically** 59:1 **pre-judge** 220:11 **precise** 49:10 **precisely** 165:3 **preclude** 147:16 **predominantly** 115:7 **prefer** 20:18 **preference** 115:1 **prejudge** 221:4 **premise** 40:10 65:7 148:1 ,16 **prepared** 15:7 102:8 **present** 117:11 128:7 215:8 **presented** 215:19 **presenting** 117:20

**press** 179:21 **pressure** 26:18,21 27:3 35:10 41:17 41:18 122:5 125:11 ,13 126:12 126:17 ,18 127:10 127:11 129:19 134:1 ,2 216:9,15 223:9,9 224:2,12 225:10,11 226:5 226:11 ,12 227:16 228:1 ,2,5 ,7 229:3 229:9,9 **pressures** 224:21 **presuming** 141:6 **pretty** 12:2 15:14 33:18 81:15 109:20 121:20 141:13 ,14 151:6 155:9 192:15 194:17 201:13 203:21 **prevalent** 94:7 189:2 **prevent** 9:2 161:4 188:21 **previous** 175:19 205:8 **previously** 73:6 141:1 **primary** 133:12 **print** 154:15 **probably** 4:6 21:11 51:1 56:18 85:13 90:4 104:22 106:18 108:14 138:12 140:7 ,12 146:13 147:1 185:7 192:16 196:16 197:17 203:8,11 209:20 209:22 229:6 **problem** 13:1 14:2 17:20 41:13 42:6 43:18 87:9 93:22 110:1 154:13 185:20 189:6 196:7 **problems** 195:10 199:5 **procedural** 103:18 104:10 **procedure** 51:20 52:1 ,3 69:7 80:15 80:15 138:11 219:17 ,20

**procedures** 51:11 207:13 **proceed** 23:18 104:11 142:2 198:13 **process** 12:16 48:6 49:13 70:13 87:1 93:9 109:12 111:4 115:19 123:17 130:2,5 131:9 133:8 134:16 135:5 136:21 142:6 166:11 176:18 185:19 186:13 192:7 198:2 199:11 211:2 212:21 ,21 220:5 **produce** 79:7 **produced** 74:21 **product** 22:11 23:8 24:8,14 25:3 ,4 27:10 29:3 30:4,8 31:13 32:20 40:6 40:15 ,19 47:18 51:14 55:4,19,21 66:13 73:1 ,11 ,16 78:16 81:14 86:1 86:3 88:7 91:4 92:1 93:18 95:13 108:21 125:16 129:8,20 130:13 135:7 144:8,13 ,17 145:3 ,12 149:20 149:21 ,22 150:13 151:1 156:11 157:20 158:17 164:8 170:18 171:15 174:2,6 180:7 ,17 183:22 190:8,16 191:4 192:20 196:6,9 198:8 211:19,21 224:5 **production** 55:18 183:2 **productive** 76:13 230:13 **products** 2:18 7:5 8:19,20 9:3 ,7 22:9 23:3 24:3 ,7 25:13 25:20 30:2,10 31:3 ,17 36:2,9,14 37:6 44:14 45:9 46:17 ,18 47:20 48:2 50:6,7 52:1 ,4

55:2,22 56:1 67:19 73:9,11 76:4 86:8,12 87:21 88:16 89:1 92:18 97:22 120:5 135:11 140:16 142:3 ,9,15 144:6 151:8 157:16 175:20,22 190:1 195:9,22 197:2 198:16 201:21 202:10,12 207:15 226:19 227:17 **profile** 57:9 **programs** 69:2,11 75:22 219:9 **progress** 178:1 207:19,19 208:18 230:15 ,17 **Project** 2:21 5:22 **promptly** 211:9 **proof** 65:15 **propeller** 101:17 **properly** 26:20 41:3 **proposal** 12:8 22:18 23:13 ,17 30:17 36:21 37:1 86:18 90:17 96:11 99:9 99:16 100:12 111:13 114:12 221:3 230:10 **proposals** 128:10 209:15 **propose** 84:20 85:18 89:11 101:13 105:19 108:10,11 111:5 112:20 117:6 140:3 ,9 143:10 160:18 161:9 197:14 199:6 **proposed** 23:2 37:3 61:8,9 88:20 117:5 170:4 199:22 213:11 219:1 220:11 **proposing** 19:7 ,10 133:4,7 183:20 **protecting** 166:11 **protection** 154:10 173:12 180:7 ,9,15 180:15 **protective** 166:19 167:4 **prototypes** 43:19ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 249 **provable** 161:19 **proves** 13:20 **provide** 24:19 30:2 30:9,18 41:21 49:18 53:10 54:1 62:9 65:14,15 79:12 81:2 217:10 **provided** 36:19 49:2 83:7 88:15 92:13 204:9 **providers** 204:7 **provides** 154:10 **proxy** 12:22 20:5 ,6 225:16 **prudent** 23:16 58:4 **PRV** 153:14 154:19 154:19,20 155:13 **PRV's** 154:22 **public** 1:1 43:4 68:17 92:15 96:7 220:20 229:2 **published** 62:17 73:6 83:15 215:21 **pull** 25:21 110:14 151:17 152:13 156:21 182:8,16 229:8 **pulled** 83:15 **pump** 53:18 172:10 218:10 **pumps** 9:14 27:22 28:1 ,7 61:8 214:12,20 215:14 217:6,7 ,14 218:6 218:9 **purpose** 16:16 34:7 136:17 191:13 **purposes** 106:20 119:9 151:2 160:17 161:1 166:19 167:4,4 184:5 191:21 **push** 156:8 183:16 **pushback** 34:19 **put** 4:15 10:18 13:9 21:15 24:18 25:22 28:7 36:18 39:9 39:12 40:13 42:21 56:11 ,19 58:6 65:11 66:22 69:3 81:22 85:4 94:16 96:6,17 97:19 98:4 100:17 116:12 122:15 129:6,11 131:19 134:15 140:17 143:5 155:16

160:22 162:22 171:9,10 179:13 181:10,18 184:16 185:2 188:5 ,15 189:11 ,15 190:1 ,7 190:17 206:7 218:18 219:3 223:8 224:18 226:22 228:8 229:15 **puts** 172:1 **putting** 39:3 47:17 75:22 148:22 163:5 ,19 195:2 **pyramid** 180:11 **Q quad**  32:22 **qualify** 123:8 **queries** 64:6 **question** 29:12,20 38:17 ,22 42:9,15 43:11 ,20 44:4 46:20 48:12 64:7 66:16 67:1 70:21 72:13 74:1 ,10,11 75:14 77:2 78:20 79:4 83:12,21 91:18 95:21 98:7 98:20 99:22 102:5 103:1 ,18 104:10 109:9 111:5 ,6,7 112:13 115:2,18 121:21 131:15 132:10 133:16 137:13 139:13 142:6,17 144:3 147:4,15 149:1 ,19 150:12 151:15 152:4 153:16 155:17 157:21 158:10 161:5 ,8 164:1 166:3 ,22 177:4,4,6 183:8 185:7 188:2,4 194:8,11 197:3 204:13 218:4 220:2 223:6 225:18 **questions** 47:5 ,7 58:16,17 ,19 62:14 63:12 64:1 70:3 78:12 82:16 130:1 131:3 192:3 197:4 199:3 202:7 ,8 203:9 210:7 ,18

**queue** 43:6 44:4 **quick** 10:10 208:20 218:4 223:6 **quickly** 4:19 **quite** 122:3 136:21 178:15 200:14 212:5 226:14,19 **quorum** 104:11 ,14 104:17 ,18 105:1 **R R**  3:13 4:1 **radial** 125:1 126:20 164:12 **rain** 161:4 167:8 180:12,14,15 **raise** 149:6 194:11 **raised** 8:15 73:14 78:14 102:21 127:12 **raises** 45:16 **ran** 226:18 227:10 **Rand** 5:10 **range** 62:17 ,21 67:13 80:13 ,18 97:21 125:18 126:3 135:8 157:16,20 190:4 **rarely** 77:9 198:19 **rate** 133:10 **rated** 41:10 51:7 137:21 156:3 176:7 ,9 **rating** 41:11 50:17 50:18 75:11 154:21 **ratings** 52:19 82:5 **raw** 97:9 **reach** 213:2 **react** 208:9,13 **reaction** 70:15 **reactions** 201:8 **read** 61:20 **readings** 224:13 **ready** 25:12 62:5 207:16 **Reagan** 15:14 **real** 10:10 73:22 77:4 95:15 134:13 135:2 136:12 167:2 187:1 189:6 190:2 196:6 210:12 **realistically** 30:17 **reality** 42:1 ,19 74:5 106:6 210:8 229:20 **realize** 172:22 **realized** 228:3 **really** 13:4,5 21:13 30:11 ,15 34:8 41:22 42:17 45:11 45:13 53:17 ,20,22 55:3 58:16 60:2 60:13 ,20,21 63:1 63:16,18 64:21 65:4 79:17 80:19 88:12 93:17 121:13 123:13 127:12,13 128:22 129:3 131:10 134:21 141:12 143:11 148:2 149:8 155:2 157:20 161:5 164:19 166:15 167:20 173:10 174:15 179:12 181:8 182:17 190:16 192:15 194:3 202:14 203:2 206:4 207:7 208:15 ,17 213:15 213:19 216:19 218:2 219:16,18 223:22 224:8 229:16 230:19 **realm** 126:16 **reapplied** 157:13 **reason** 88:4 127:2 133:9 147:18 152:9 167:6 175:3 225:4,20 227:3 **reasonable** 14:4,8 35:1 65:2 74:4 96:3 113:10 193:20 202:10,12 209:22 **reasons** 38:6 174:20 **REC's** 81:11 **recall** 19:18 128:19 **recap** 13:19 **Recess** 200:7 **rechargeable** 141:20 **recognition** 212:22 **recognize** 150:4 **recollection** 27:21 **recommendation** 129:16 **reconvene** 99:12 103:3 105:11 106:9 **reconvening** 106:8 **record** 4:19,21 12:22 22:14,22 56:8 86:14 106:15 123:14 225:17 **recovery** 93:7 144:11 **RECS** 56:11 82:22 **redesign** 29:4,8,14 32:17 ,20 47:18 66:20 95:13 **redesigned** 29:15 **redesigns** 30:1 95:12 96:14 **redirection** 180:12 **reduce** 65:5 ,8 76:1 **reductionist** 131:9 **reference** 86:15 108:22 109:18 153:17 **references** 218:1 **referencing** 195:8 **referred** 211:15 **referring** 123:9 133:1 215:13 **reflective** 218:13 **refocus** 84:22 **reframe** 38:16 **refrigerant** 55:14 **refrigeration** 3:3 5:3 93:3 ,4 **reg** 210:17 **regain** 27:2 134:16 **Regal** 2:17 7:9 52:9 **regard** 40:1 145:9 192:12,19 **regarding** 225:13 228:10 **regardless** 175:9 **regards** 214:2 217:18 **region** 81:14 **register** 16:4 **registration** 60:19 **regs** 207:12,12 217:19 **regulate** 34:21 ,21 40:3 ,4,4 55:2 57:17 ,18,20 72:22 152:11 164:20 184:11 **regulated** 8:19,20 9:6,7 23:3 ,8 24:6 24:7 25:4,13 ,20ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 250 27:12 33:3 34:3 34:18 36:15 37:6 40:16 42:13 44:13 45:10 48:9 50:6 50:14 51:1 ,2,14 55:22 56:1 60:5 70:5 ,16,19 71:4,5 71:9,16,19 72:22 73:11 ,12 80:6,7 ,8 80:11 85:22 86:12 88:16 94:16 127:19 146:14 148:12 151:3 ,4,8 151:10 161:10 176:7 183:21 184:19 186:4 191:21 193:22 195:9 196:5 197:2 198:16 **regulating** 8:20 25:11 34:17 40:21 51:3 144:22 **regulation** 31:3 34:2,16 39:22 40:17 ,18 41:1 ,2,4 47:14 48:3 50:11 52:17 60:13 70:14 71:20 79:12 101:13 ,20 102:14 127:6 128:7 151:2 158:3 ,4 160:17 161:18 163:6 169:14 172:18,20 185:12,17 191:14 191:20 193:15 196:2 198:3 199:19 208:6,6 211:19,21 212:1 212:13 ,17 218:7 218:10 220:7 **regulations** 28:9 155:21 183:14 206:12 220:14 **regulatory** 42:3 55:14 58:20 64:3 96:3 ,9,12 119:14 205:19 206:3 ,15 213:22 220:13 221:4 224:19,20 **rehash** 12:5 **rehashed** 129:1 **reinvent** 122:11 **rejection** 148:6 **rejoin** 200:10 **relate** 150:1 **related** 26:11 78:12 177:5 193:7 197:17 205:9 **relations** 106:21 **relationship** 126:22 **relative** 31:11 39:15 125:11 ,14 142:8 150:13 **released** 72:20 **releases** 211:8 **relevant** 194:17 **relive** 45:21 **reluctant** 167:17 **remain** 206:9 **remarks** 230:7 **remedy** 199:14 **remember** 39:4,5 108:4 177:7 212:20 **remind** 22:20 **remote** 173:9 **removable** 173:12 **remove** 129:19 **removed** 153:8 **repair** 43:13 **repeat** 71:7 177:6 **repertoire** 110:15 **rephrase** 195:14 **replace** 29:7 **report** 93:14 99:14 171:11 195:1 **reported** 34:3 73:12 **reporter** 17:5 **reporting** 32:9,9 194:21 **reports** 23:4,6 **represent** 57:12 98:9 **representation** 98:1 **representations** 203:14 219:7 **representative** 21:18,19 43:10 75:12 97:11 **represented** 22:12 203:22 **representing** 8:10 58:21 **represents** 56:13 58:18 **reps** 8:3 **reputation** 198:20 **request** 11:15 19:12 33:18 64:9 130:12 200:3 221:18 228:8 **requested** 4:4 201:5 **requesting** 64:11

**requests** 64:4 **require** 42:22 190:3 **required** 48:1 57:5 89:2 163:22 **requirement** 25:5 66:21 96:4,10,12 127:9,12 128:9 137:6 138:6 182:10,12 203:13 **requirements** 32:9 32:10,11 **reserve** 199:10 **reserved** 199:10 **residences** 81:12 **residential** 9:16 50:22 56:12,14 82:17 **resolution** 62:1 228:19 **resources** 3:7 5:17 56:11 **respect** 22:10 34:1 ,3 70:11 88:19,22 203:8 212:15 **respectful** 12:17 **respond** 29:20 50:1 51:6 61:3 68:4,16 228:17 **Responding** 209:8 **response** 47:6 96:7 102:10 121:2 155:11 217:17 **responses** 72:8 **responsible** 34:16 **rest** 10:14 11:9 14:5 28:7 31:10 75:6 92:10 135:1 140:22 159:9 **restaurant** 145:6 **result** 59:22 **resulted** 226:20 **results** 29:3 222:17 222:18 224:12 **retired** 106:21 **reveal** 92:16 **revise** 37:1 222:19 223:2 **revising** 221:8 **revisions** 221:12 **revisit** 12:21 **reward** 226:13 **Rheem** 8:7 68:19 69:12 **rid** 163:17 **right** 11:8 17:8 21:9 22:2,8 36:14 45:1 48:14 52:1 65:9 75:7 80:16,17 82:15 83:12 85:2 86:12 90:11 ,21 94:11 95:21 97:4 98:8 101:10 106:10,11 108:5 109:13 ,18 110:21 111:18 112:14,19 113:3 ,5 116:1 ,3 116:10 119:5 122:5 ,6 127:16 129:15 134:9 137:14 141:7 144:3 ,13 ,17 147:18 148:15 149:20,21 150:3 150:10,22 154:1 157:4 160:19 161:7 163:9,16,18 164:12 170:11 ,13 170:21 172:11 ,21 174:12 176:4 179:3 181:6 184:1 186:1 ,8,22 187:11 188:4,8,15 ,17 189:9 194:7 195:4 199:9,10 210:2 212:17 215:1 ,6 216:7 ,18,20 227:18 229:21 **Rob** 2:10 7:7 171:4 171:19 178:15 **robustly** 204:16 **rocket** 33:10 **role** 166:10 167:21 168:8,11 **roof** 87:19,20 142:20,21 150:16 150:17 ,18,20 151:17 ,19 158:18 159:2,6,8,11 ,13 159:13 160:16 169:22 170:1 **rooftop** 24:18 170:2 **room** 1:6 10:4 17:12 17:17 ,18,19 44:2 59:20 67:6 86:6 122:22 125:8 164:16 169:8 171:21 181:22 193:13 ,14 194:2,6 200:8,21 229:19 **rotor** 171:22 172:8 **round** 206:20 **row** 227:1

**Roy** 3:4 5:15 23:1 ,1 31:22,22 44:6,6 46:2,13 ,13 105:18 105:18 106:4 **rule** 37:3 46:11 83:3 95:15 199:21 ,22 220:11 **rulemaking** 28:3 32:13 44:14 75:18 135:12 161:9 **rulemakings** 32:16 32:22 **rules** 33:1 45:5 **run** 26:20 52:20,21 52:22 56:9 58:10 81:9 93:1 ,2 114:6 157:17 219:21 223:1 **running** 41:14 69:15 ,19 74:13 ,13 135:10 **runs** 69:14 **S safe**  230:20 **sake** 156:14 **Sam** 3:11 6:10 215:10 **samples** 43:16 **San** 5:7 **Sanaee** 3:14 6:13 117:8 152:20,21 215:11 223:17 **Sanaee's** 118:16 **sat** 83:10 **save** 14:14 27:11 ,13 148:20 **saved** 24:3 ,6 **saving** 23:14 **savings** 28:7 ,18,19 29:17 32:2,13 ,14 33:1 ,3 42:18,20 47:15 48:3 59:4 70:20 82:4 97:6 229:21 **saw** 220:7 **saying** 4:5 11:20 37:14 49:14 66:14 75:7 77:3 102:11 132:13 134:19 137:18,22 142:10 143:6 146:18 161:11 167:11 ,18 176:14 179:17 182:21 187:15ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 251 188:8,8 213:6 228:17 **says** 44:10,12 112:17 113:18 179:22 189:4,13 218:17 **scaling** 217:19 **scan** 124:21 125:1 **scenarios** 216:22 219:22 **schedule** 10:11 ,15 12:19 21:10 **scheduled** 4:3 **scheme** 36:6 **schemes** 58:20 64:3 117:18 **schoolyard** 86:15 86:16 **science** 33:10 **scope** 10:12 18:19 21:13 ,22 22:2 32:19 46:10 61:16 85:6 93:21 100:3 100:13 ,13 ,20 101:12,13 105:14 108:18 ,21 121:9 138:20 139:15 140:4,11 147:11 147:14 175:12 177:12 191:14 206:10 207:22 219:16,18 220:4,7 223:4 230:17 **screen** 88:8 168:10 168:18 175:5 176:4 **screws** 40:17 **scribbling** 173:18 **scribe** 84:8 **scribing** 86:22 **scroll** 151:4,10 164:10 178:8 **scrolled** 150:5 **se** 206:11 220:19 **seals** 171:10 **season** 57:5 **second** 4:18 10:7 39:21 42:14 56:6 65:18 112:6 121:3 121:22 127:5 179:10 204:13 213:11 215:20 216:8 227:21 228:9 **second-by-second** 79:16 **secondary** 160:22

**section** 44:9,12 **security** 14:10 **see** 8:15 33:2,17 43:16 60:8,9,11 72:5 97:22 105:16 107:11 124:21 127:19 137:10 147:6 150:8,9,11 152:16 154:22 155:5 ,7 157:2 173:17 ,19,20 174:1 175:3 177:8 200:22 202:10 204:12,18 210:18 **seeing** 14:14 31:19 112:13 117:16 131:1 227:18 **seen** 24:4 29:22 36:21 104:20 183:4 185:18 186:10,16 187:1 211:20 220:12,22 **SEER** 27:8 **segment** 91:16 **selected** 58:9 227:6 **selection** 69:2,11 224:4 225:5 **self-contained** 173:1 ,3 **self-declaration** 36:5 ,10 46:11 **self-declared** 79:21 **self-divide** 99:11 **self-identified** 200:20 **sell** 172:5 ,8 **sells** 171:22 **send** 10:16 20:5 21:10 **sense** 68:5 ,6,15 69:10 71:20 72:7 72:14 86:22 87:16 153:2 170:7 192:8 200:3 ,19 205:18 **sensitive** 96:16 **sent** 64:9 **sentence** 110:8 **separate** 17:1 136:7 **separated** 114:7 **separately** 51:14 169:10 **sequence** 50:3 88:12 121:8 **sequencing** 88:20 **sequential** 89:5 **sequentially** 89:12 90:16 **series** 47:5 53:21 181:2 199:6 **serious** 8:18 **serves** 34:6 153:6 154:11 **session** 184:4 **sessions** 16:20 17:6 **set** 12:19 45:3 51:10 56:21 82:15 119:4 130:20 135:13 185:21 194:14 196:2,2 222:21 224:15 **sets** 189:5 **setting** 35:22 185:20 186:18 193:20 **settings** 186:12 **shaft** 80:12 115:4 153:4 154:5 **Sham** 43:8 **shape** 180:11 ,12,14 **share** 10:3 37:17 76:21 81:1 126:8 205:2 207:1 ,2 227:11 **shared** 124:3 203:19 208:21 **sharing** 203:10 **Sheard** 3:5 5:1 ,1 34:13 ,13 127:17 127:17 ,22 128:3 201:15 **sheet** 20:11 **shelf** 102:15 **shift** 41:10 **shifted** 20:9 **shifts** 50:20 **ship** 91:6 **shipped** 33:13 97:10 137:3 ,11 **shipping** 162:9 **ships** 137:1 ,7 **shocked** 141:11 **shooting** 113:7 182:14 193:22 **short** 43:20 146:15 **shot** 163:8 **show** 94:20,20 100:1 189:5 **showing** 32:22 **shown** 87:19 160:14 **shroud** 159:22 160:2 166:7 **Siberia** 13:17

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**slide** 84:10,10,19 85:4 107:21 112:14 117:9 118:21 140:21 141:9 142:8 154:14 158:13 160:20 177:11 178:12 213:14,18 230:5 **slides** 4:15 21:17 100:14 102:8 108:19 109:1 111:22 115:15 117:17 118:7 146:7 152:8 154:17 **slightly** 4:11 193:12 **sloppy** 212:15 **small** 28:2 90:7 96:16 98:9,15 **smaller** 98:9 156:16 209:1 **smallest** 107:11 **smart** 164:16 198:4 229:18 **smashed** 118:2 **Smiley** 3:6,6 5:9,9 16:6,13 17:22 18:4 24:1 ,1 33:20 63:10,10 64:10,15 65:3 66:9 67:11 77:3 ,6,14 114:20 114:20 126:19,19 133:16,18,18 134:21 139:18,21 139:22 159:4,4 168:16,19,20 182:7 ,7 183:11 184:21 ,21 186:16 186:19,19 187:8,8 187:12,17 ,21 188:10 201:14 204:4 **Smith** 5:11 ,11 10:20 11:2 16:11 17:12 17:19 33:6,8,8 46:20 58:15 ,15 63:22 64:1 ,14 65:1 70:2 71:7 ,13 77:13 83:7 85:11 90:19,20 91:22 92:12 94:1 95:4 98:11 ,18 99:2,5 101:9 102:16 105:4 106:13ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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**snow** 161:4 **soft** 101:9 **sold** 79:2 80:19 90:22 **solid** 121:20 **solution** 74:8 82:11 82:14 127:14 **solutions** 128:1 199:7 **solve** 130:21 195:12 **somebody** 10:10 52:7 72:13 95:18 108:22 114:11 144:6 155:16 162:2 179:16,22 180:1 ,10 192:6 203:5 218:16,19 **somewhat** 50:3 192:2 **soon** 100:3 200:11 **sophisticated** 43:1 **sorry** 13:16 17:16 20:6,6 33:8 52:5 77:5 86:1 ,18 89:15 ,17 92:7 109:21 118:14 128:16 133:4,17 134:22 138:4 140:1 150:11 152:17 158:14,16 159:16,20 161:7 166:2 192:22 193:17 195:14 205:4 225:21 227:13 **sort** 56:7 76:17 88:11 ,14 105:5 106:18 109:11 118:5 ,11 121:2 123:14 153:13 160:2,2 166:12 180:21 189:6 193:5 199:4 203:12 220:8 **sound** 127:16 **sounded** 181:1 228:16 **sounds** 64:19 78:13 202:16 **source** 9:14 **Southern** 5:7 ,8 **space** 190:3 ,5 ,7 ,10 190:19 **span** 190:19 **speak** 10:1 12:14 22:21 47:20 63:5 72:6 87:14 203:6

205:12 219:10 **SPEAKER** 215:22 **speaking** 16:15 50:10 52:10 82:22 99:9 154:18 174:22 224:18 **specialized** 180:6 **specific** 61:21 64:7 82:16 107:20 109:3 ,7 117:14 124:7 125:4,10,13 125:15 ,18 126:21 130:7 169:10 192:2 216:14 218:1 220:18 **specifically** 51:10 72:21 79:4 127:7 133:1 164:10 175:14 177:5 178:18 **specifics** 107:13 **specified** 105:2 **specifies** 23:7 **speculate** 98:15 **speculated** 197:7 **speculating** 189:1 **speculation** 59:17 **speed** 41:15 125:10 125:13 ,15 ,18 126:21 130:7 171:12 202:19 **spell** 115:8 **spend** 4:9 167:7 ,9 **spent** 84:15 ,17 121:19 130:21 **split** 19:22 122:10 192:11 **spokesperson** 203:3 **spot** 166:16 **spreadsheet** 92:10 211:5 228:11 **SPX** 2:11 ,12 6:4 7:16 **stakeholders** 117:11 **stamina** 14:6 **stance** 44:18 **stand** 9:8 26:7 39:7 69:18 **stand-alone** 25:6 39:12,18 40:13 73:9 74:19 76:5 79:2 85:2,7 ,19 92:8,13 95:5 98:11 107:15 119:5 ,6 120:6,14 122:18 132:2

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45:4 72:21 **statement** 74:13 78:5 123:11 150:6 179:17 **states** 23:6 54:18 56:13 57:13 **static** 27:2 41:17 ,18 122:4,5 132:21 133:11 223:9 224:1 225:11 227:16 228:2,4,5 229:10,10 **stating** 42:12 **statistics** 92:5 **stator** 172:2,9 **status** 41:20 **statute** 51:9 **statutory** 220:15 **stay** 14:11 17:2 **staying** 134:22 **step** 135:11 ,21 136:16 192:7 228:6 **Stephen** 2:5 3:13 **stepping** 124:20 **steps** 93:19 99:14 **Steve** 2:16 5:13 ,18 6:15 18:5 50:3 ,5 110:4,6 111:10 113:13 **stick** 131:1 182:18 182:19 **sticky** 148:20 **stop** 15:16 103:18 159:17 178:17 **stopped** 55:16 **straight** 15:8 **strategies** 198:19 **strategy** 129:13 **stream** 41:20 **streamlined** 60:14 **strike** 94:17 207:10 **striving** 213:1 **strong** 61:12 179:17 **structure** 153:4,7 154:5 ,6,11 156:14 157:7 159:9 167:14 214:17 224:11 **structured** 70:20 75:18 134:9 207:13 **structures** 156:1 **struggle** 25:2 **struggled** 152:1 ,4 **struggles** 79:11

**struggling** 28:16,17 41:21 61:15 101:3 **stuff** 39:15 40:5 45:7 56:8 62:22 63:11 ,20 101:17 119:6 145:8 163:18 196:21 197:8,18 217:19 218:1 219:13 225:16 229:10 **styles** 195:21 **sub-category** 118:13 **sub-groups** 72:15 200:20 **sub-topics** 85:20 **subgroup** 104:19 105:6 **subject** 50:8 70:8 85:15 122:13 205:9 **submissions** 117:12 **submit** 83:18 220:17 **submitted** 83:17 ,18 192:17 **submitting** 23:4 **subsequent** 47:4 99:17 **subsequently** 219:1 **subset** 107:10 207:18 **subsets** 110:9 **subsidiaries** 123:19 **subsidiary** 123:19 **substantially** 193:18 **successful** 220:4 **suck** 159:17 **sucking** 161:4 **sucks** 159:14 **suddenly** 125:18 **suggest** 38:16 44:18 84:20 90:19,20 111:10 146:12,17 161:9 185:19 **suggested** 22:1 35:6 35:7 **suggesting** 84:3 **suggestion** 17:11 100:10 142:18 153:16,18,19 198:17 **suggestions** 28:21 **suggests** 48:11ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 253 **suite** 41:19 **summarily** 28:8 **summarize** 184:2 **summary** 44:11 **summer** 57:7 **Sunday** 18:12,13 **Sundays** 11:19 20:18 **super-efficient** 65:7 65:9,12 **supplied** 49:3 102:4 166:14 **supplier** 42:11 171:22 **suppliers** 43:22 **supply** 42:11 92:21 92:22 93:6 **support** 23:12 36:3 36:22 37:18 71:10 149:2 154:7 **supported** 37:21 163:11 **supporting** 47:14 **supports** 30:19 156:14 **suppose** 222:3 **sure** 4:2,10 8:22 10:8,16 12:19 13:6 14:10 22:5 29:21 42:17 54:21 61:4 62:1 72:11 89:6 92:3 100:19 103:7 119:8 123:4 124:6 126:13 ,14 130:4,5 137:9,17 138:15 140:7 141:18 175:20 187:4 197:21 201:11 206:9 213:13 ,21 214:21 222:4 227:2 228:18 229:6,15 230:1 **surgery** 41:19 **survey** 82:17 **SW** 1:7 **swath** 52:4 **sweet** 166:16 **swept** 129:11 **switch** 149:9 190:22 **system** 26:5 31:10 31:14 39:15 43:18 52:14 53:14,16 54:4,17 ,17 56:5 69:4,8 93:4 163:5 174:11 176:13 177:2 189:8,11 ,17

213:19 214:17 217:9,11 218:21 219:7 ,7 ,8,9 **system's** 75:3 **systems** 55:13 75:2 176:19 181:6 **systems'** 176:21 **T T**  3:1 **table** 30:5 46:12 49:15 60:2 61:5 72:3 74:6,7 91:5 106:14 107:5 209:15 222:20 **tackle** 105:13 **take** 4:6 24:12,17 29:4,15 39:6,9,11 47:10 59:21 63:13 63:19 64:12,14 71:2 72:10 76:22 83:10 86:19,22 87:2 92:20 99:11 103:4,6 110:3 111:11 113:9 114:11 119:1 ,4,21 120:3 ,9,13 ,20 123:5 ,22 124:7 129:5 130:1 134:17 140:9 143:14 147:9 150:3 156:10 163:7 ,8,12 165:17 165:22 178:8,17 184:6,12,13 188:11 ,13 205:13 205:14 206:20 217:7 223:4 **taken** 37:2 48:17 99:17 148:15 173:4 196:3 **takes** 56:13 71:1 72:1 91:4 101:16 137:13 175:18 **talk** 21:13 ,21 27:18 69:22 85:1 ,20,22 105:13 ,14,14 107:10,14 108:19 113:14 114:19 116:17 132:20 138:10,16 144:5 146:13 148:19 160:6 177:1 214:2 217:5 224:10 225:16 230:19 **talked** 10:21 31:7

53:11 75:19 82:12 103:19 107:9 111:9 136:21 **talking** 13:8 21:17 31:4,9 40:1 45:22 51:18 52:5 ,11 53:2 55:1 68:7 71:15 73:7 ,10 76:19 77:6 80:4 80:17 ,17 94:4 127:18 137:19 140:14 142:13 144:1 145:9 156:20 166:8 168:10 169:3 173:10 174:8,14 180:5 ,18,20 182:5 187:5 ,6 190:12 191:9 193:20 195:4,5 200:6 206:16 207:11 ,22 210:4 212:20 213:15 214:16 **target** 69:9 135:13 183:2 193:21 194:4 215:16 **targets** 182:14 **task** 94:2 **taxonomy** 121:4 **teach** 59:6 **team** 21:14 223:7 **tearing** 58:11 **technical** 10:2 **technicalities** 127:15 **Technologies** 2:15 **tell** 36:9 45:20 46:9 55:18 67:10 80:8 84:4,4,16 97:12 102:14 **telling** 65:10 **temperature** 61:20 72:11 86:19 87:2 94:15 99:10 103:6 110:4 113:9 114:9 119:2,21 120:3 ,12 120:17 ,20 123:5 130:14 139:2,3 140:9,18 147:9 150:4 175:12 177:8 178:17 **template** 202:4 203:10 208:21 **tends** 125:12 **tent** 31:19 68:5 **tentatively** 45:4

**terawatt** 83:11 **term** 20:11 40:20 121:9 138:18 171:6 178:15 184:8 191:12 **terminal** 9:13 **terms** 31:12 48:3 61:6 68:13 85:14 88:15 95:8 107:12 126:17 142:2 150:19 175:6 181:8 200:21 205:17 ,17 ,20 207:13 209:9 213:3 216:13 218:13 223:20,21 225:6 226:9 **territory** 107:3 **test** 9:19 25:8,8,22 26:7 34:9 39:7 ,8 41:10 42:2,22 51:11 ,19 52:1 ,2,2 52:3 53:4 54:11 58:18 59:12,19,21 66:7 ,9 69:6 74:17 80:15 ,15 85:17 134:10,11 ,14,20 137:21 138:11 157:11 158:21 159:1 160:10,10 160:14,15 163:1 163:22 165:12,18 165:18 174:22 179:4 180:13 182:9,10,16,22,22 188:4,15 191:2 195:5 205:6 207:13 217:2 218:19 219:16,20 225:8 **testable** 143:8 158:2 161:17 ,19 173:21 174:3 ,5 ,16,17 ,18 175:6,7 ,9,16,22 176:6,22 177:18 178:3 179:2 181:7 184:8,9,12,15 ,19 191:15 202:14 205:14 206:5 ,17 207:9 208:11 210:19 219:18 222:10 225:7 **tested** 34:3 52:16 53:4 58:20 73:12 78:15 153:12 156:3 160:13

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202-347-3700 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 866-928-6509 Page 254 214:6,11 216:21 217:3 ,21 221:6 222:11 ,14 227:14 **things** 12:2,5 15:17 16:17 21:14 27:20 31:11 48:15 50:3 53:1 55:8,17 56:2 58:22,22,22 59:2 59:3 75:17 82:12 84:2 86:4 97:3 ,18 102:6 107:9 109:13 110:17 120:6 129:9 131:1 132:1 146:2 148:18 152:7 167:1 174:4 181:2 187:21 190:3 ,12 193:12 194:19 205:19 208:15 217:17 **think** 8:13 9:18 10:14 12:1 ,2,15 13:4,15 14:3 15:1 16:18,22 17:15 18:17 20:17 21:11 21:16,21 22:4,7 ,9 22:17 ,19 23:13 ,15 23:18 25:15 ,17 27:15 ,17 28:8,11 28:15 ,17 29:7 ,21 30:7 ,16,20 31:1 32:12 33:17 34:5 34:8,10 35:3 ,5 ,19 36:2,4,5 ,17 37:13 37:20 38:4,9 40:2 41:5 ,20 44:21 45:10 46:3 ,13 ,16 46:19,20 48:7 ,12 48:13 49:14,21 54:17 57:15 60:13 60:19 61:4,11 ,14 62:7 ,9,22 63:15 64:5 ,7 65:1 66:3 66:19 67:14 68:5 68:17 72:21 73:20 73:22 74:4 79:5 79:10,15 ,19,20 80:4,19 81:4 82:6 82:15 83:22 86:5 87:3 ,10 88:2 89:3 89:4,9,9 92:9,14 93:19 94:1 ,8 97:11 99:5 ,16,19 100:16,18 101:7 101:11 102:7 ,11 102:12,22 103:5 104:6,19,22 106:2

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220:22 221:10,21 222:9,19 223:15 223:16,20,22 224:7 ,13 ,17 225:4 227:9 229:12 230:11 ,14 **thinking** 65:16 68:8 98:13 115:18 120:5 131:11 162:21 181:15 200:21 223:12 **thinks** 220:14 **thirty** 87:16 **thorough** 141:14 **thoroughly** 201:19 **thought** 39:21 ,21 66:4 76:10 84:9 89:7 121:22 130:5 133:8 135:3 ,5 137:18 158:11 161:16 192:21 196:17 ,19 199:2 229:9 **thoughts** 10:5 72:16 87:1 152:1 213:8 **thousands** 172:5 **threatened** 86:5 **three** 13:8 31:19 64:8,15 ,20,20,21 82:8 85:1 87:5 ,11 89:6,8,20 90:1 ,6 99:11 ,13 ,15 100:18 101:3 105:9,20 110:18 111:21 112:1 125:5 132:4,4 140:8 146:17 148:2 171:13 180:2 181:8 197:11 207:21 **threw** 101:6 **throw** 42:11 84:9 132:1 ,4 **throwing** 109:21 130:22 **thrown** 201:19 **thumb** 139:12 149:7 ,15 **thumbs** 139:4,8,16 145:14 149:5 ,17 169:18 175:13 195:17 **Thursday** 1:11 209:21 **tied** 93:3 148:5 ,5 **tightened** 40:16

**tighter** 11:4 **time** 4:8,9 12:18 13:6 14:4 15:16 15:20 20:12,19 25:16 38:19 42:3 45:11 56:22 57:6 64:10 66:14 70:6 71:1 ,2 72:1 ,2 74:13 75:16 78:4 81:9 87:4 89:21 90:2 95:22 96:13 100:17 104:1 105:12 112:11 121:19 132:12 167:7 ,9 182:13 190:7 200:5 210:13 211:20,21 212:9,12 215:6 222:9,20 230:9,16 **timeline** 72:19 **times** 17:22 25:19 26:9 33:12 44:8 58:10 73:16 104:21 156:16 **today** 12:10 13:19 27:9 29:22 38:4 62:9,15 66:17 88:13 ,21 90:2,13 90:21 103:22 106:3 160:13 190:5 191:9,12 196:17 205:7 209:21 210:16 225:7 228:19 **told** 229:3 **tolerance** 61:1 **Tom** 2:14 7:10 106:17 120:18 ,20 135:16 166:5 179:12 191:22 197:11 ,22 203:7 211:4,11 213:6 220:2 **Tom's** 193:9 212:19 **tomorrow** 21:10 67:15 80:21 81:1 103:12 198:6 **tonight** 103:11 104:1 **tons** 92:2 **top** 67:13 150:7 ,8 167:8 **topic** 85:5 89:22 127:3 140:19 144:12 191:11 193:6

**toss** 101:9 **total** 52:15 57:5 ,10 110:9 122:6 126:17 132:22 133:11 134:1 194:1 223:8 226:11 ,18 227:10 227:10,10 228:1 ,7 228:7 229:3 **totally** 50:20 74:21 81:8 226:5 **touched** 101:22 102:1 150:14 **tour** 16:17 ,21 17:8 **Tower** 7:19 **Towers** 7:17 **track** 35:20 56:3 ,7 79:17 **tracking** 56:4 **trade** 164:5 **trade-offs** 48:5 **trading** 164:7 **training** 17:18,19 **Trane** 5:9 24:1 63:10 77:6 114:20 126:19 133:18 139:22 159:4 168:20 182:7 184:21 187:8 **transfer** 31:9 **transfers** 167:14 **translate** 206:2 **translation** 206:13 210:16 **transmission** 216:9 **travel** 20:18 **traveling** 16:12 **travels** 230:20 **treat** 23:17 **tremendous** 48:19 **tried** 62:11 ,12 **Trinity** 7:21 **trivial** 91:15 **trouble** 38:13 193:3 **true** 13:22 **trust** 139:2 140:13 149:10 **try** 14:9 21:13 ,15 24:10 58:6 107:10 130:1 171:14 179:8 184:1 195:13 198:7 199:12,18 210:9 225:3 **trying** 26:12 27:13ASRAC Fans and Blowers Working Group Meeting May 7, 2015

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124:22 125:2 132:3 146:4,6 157:6 169:6 174:11 182:4 185:10 186:11 190:15 214:11 ,18 215:3 **types** 28:20 35:22 73:18 92:19 120:8 128:19 130:6 142:22 143:1 148:4 155:9 182:5 217:18 221:11 **typical** 33:10 67:6,8 80:12,12 165:10 **typically** 41:15 157:19 164:4 165:12 186:11 187:9 211:22 **U U.S**  1:1 ,5 43:10 53:20 203:21 **ubm-papst** 128:6 **ultimately** 13:6 61:8 80:10 109:8 119:12 121:8 148:17 176:1 ,4 206:18 218:12,22 219:8,21 229:22 **un-ducted** 113:2 117:21 132:6 137:3 138:10,14 165:20 178:10 224:2 225:8,8,20 **unacceptable** 96:22 199:13 **unclear** 151:3 **underneath** 85:5 **understand** 8:1 29:1 45:9 50:9,21 76:19 80:16 88:19 92:10 105:4 133:8 134:7 146:9 157:14 186:3 187:4,14 202:22 **understanding** 123:20 127:18 137:18 144:8 145:11 156:9 166:6 193:14 224:1 229:7 **understood** 98:8 129:14,15 130:12 130:16 168:11 **unequitable** 224:12

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223:14,19 225:14 229:4,15 230:7 **wanted** 4:10 42:14 47:8 61:10 64:18 68:16 70:14 126:8 129:14 130:10 132:20 135:3 ,18 141:17 197:19 203:4,18 208:20 218:16,19 219:8 227:16 **wanting** 64:17 72:6 72:6 122:20 **wants** 63:5 89:9 208:4 222:12 230:5 **Washington** 1:8 56:22 **wasn't** 36:15 69:13 124:14 131:2 141:18 156:5 **water** 9:14 218:19 **wattage** 67:7 ,8,20 **watts** 67:11 **way** 10:10 16:1 24:11 25:6,21 26:22 27:19 36:6 42:16 46:15 49:7 55:7 ,17 56:18 58:6 59:8 68:19 77:12 94:17 102:14 109:22,22 113:2 115:1 118:4 118:12 122:5 ,6 134:14 137:2 150:19 151:5 152:11 157:6 160:13 163:12 164:1 168:20,21 168:22 170:18 173:13 180:8,22 181:10 183:19 188:9,10,11 193:17 199:15 ,22 206:12 211:12 214:17 215:1 218:18 219:3 ,4 224:18 229:4 **ways** 78:6 152:7 156:4 160:13 166:1 174:9 228:21 **we'll** 88:3 139:2 147:5 199:21 **we've** 211:18 **wear** 14:5

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# TRANSCRIPTION CERTIFICATE



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