### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

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ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY

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ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR BATTERY CHARGERS AND EXTERNAL POWER SUPPLIES

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PUBLIC MEETING

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THURSDAY JULY 16, 2009

+ + + + + The Public Meeting convened in Room 1E-245 in the Forrestal Building, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Douglas Brookman, Facilitator, presiding.

PRESENT: DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator LARRY ALBERT, Power Tool Institute WAYNE ANDERSON, Motorola JENNIFER THORNE AMANN, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy MATTHEW BAER, Navigant Consulting TIM BALLO, Earthjustice PAUL BENDT, Ecos Consulting BELINDA CARR, Energetics, Inc. ROBIN CLARK, ICF International ANDREW DELASKI, Appliance Standards Awareness Project PRESENT: (cont'd)

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2 BRENDA EDWARDS, U.S. Department of Energy RICHARD FASSLER, Power Integrations GARY FERNSTROM, Pacific Gas & Electric MARK FRIEDRICHS, U.S. Department of Energy SANTHOSH GEORGE, Vivitar SUMAN GIRI, D&R International ANDRE GONDOUIN, Navigant Consulting RAMESH GUPTA, Natural Resources Canada RICK HABBEN, Wahl Clipper Corporation PETER HOEKSTRA, Navigant Consulting EDWIN HORNQUIST, Southern California Edison DOUGLAS JOHNSON, Consumer Electronics Association MATT JONES, D&R International MICHAEL KIDO, ESQ., U.S. Department of Energy ELIZABETH KOHL, ESQ., U.S. Department of Energy ANN KURRASCH, Navigant Consulting DANIEL LAUF, D&R International LEAH LITMAN, Covington & Burling MATEUSZ MALINOWSKI, Navigant Consulting JIM MORGAN, Sony WAYNE MORRIS, Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers WAYNE MYRICK, Sharp VICTOR PETROLATI, U.S. Department of Energy ERIN POTOCKI, Navigant Consulting ARI REEVES, D&R International STEVEN ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute MARK SHARP, Panasonic JACQUELYN THOMPSON, Keller & Heckman TOBIAS SWOPE, D&R International MICHAEL VLADIMER, Navigant Consulting SCOTT WORTHINGTON, Navigant Consulting

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3 TABLE OF CONTENTS

PAGE

Welcome....................................4 Opening Remarks, Introductions,............6 and Agenda Review Regulatory Overview.......................16 Energy Conservation Standards.............30 Rulemaking

Stakeholder Comments......................34 Scope of Analysis.........................65

Test Procedures..........................150

Market Assessment........................208

Product Price Determination..............220 Energy Use and End Use Load Characterization...................244 Technology Assessment....................280 Screening Analysis.......................304 Engineering Analysis.....................311 Preliminary Manufacturer.................336 Impact Analysis Life-Cycle Cost Analysis.................343 National Impact Analysis.................365 Next Steps and Closing Remarks...........375 Adjourn

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (9:15 a.m.) 3 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Good 4 morning. First of all, I want to apologize.

5 We haven't run into this before. We still 6 have, at the latest count, about four people 7 that are trying to get in, and I am hoping 8 they get in fairly quickly. But a few of 9 those are foreign nationals, and they are 10 waiting for some forms. 11 So anyway, my name is Vic 12 Petrolati. I am basically in the Appliance 13 Standards Program in the Office of Energy 14 Efficiency and Renewable Energy within the 15 Department of Energy, and I am the Project 16 Manager for Battery Chargers and External 17 Power Supplies. I will be your host for the 18 meeting this morning. 19 I would like to welcome everybody 20 to Washington, D.C., who are coming from out 21 of town. It is usually not this crowded in 22 DOE trying to get in here. The weather has

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5 1 been great, and we hope you enjoy your stay 2 while you are here. 3 First of all, I want you to know 4 that we value stakeholder input. That is one 5 of the primary purposes of having these 6 meetings, and we are very interested in 7 getting your stakeholder input throughout all 8 of the presentations today. 9 We are going to be presenting a 10 lot of information today, in some cases more

11 information than we even had in the framework 12 document and the draft technical report, 13 specifically in one area on basically 14 modifying the test procedures for battery 15 chargers and external power supplies and for 16 battery chargers. One of the issues that we 17 have been continually told that we need to 18 work on is incorporating active mode. 19 So we've got a lot of information. 20 We've got, obviously, a pretty tight 21 schedule, and we are already a little behind. 22 But we are probably going to be able to stick

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6 1 to schedule as best we can, and I am hoping we 2 can get everybody out of here by 5:00. 3 Okay. With that said, I would 4 like to turn it over to Doug to go over some 5 of our ground rules and other issues 6 associated with the meeting. 7 Doug? 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Good 9 morning, everybody. This is the public 10 meeting on energy conservation standards for 11 battery chargers and external power supplies. 12 Glad to see you here. Sorry for the little

13 bit of a late start.

14 It is our tradition to do 15 introductions around the room. If you'd say 16 your name and organizational affiliation. All 17 of this will not be captured on the record. 18 As we speak, that will be on the record. 19 MR. FERNSTROM: So I am Gary 20 Fernstrom, formerly and presently representing 21 the Pacific Gas & Electric Company.

22 DR. BENDT: And I am Dr. Paul

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7 1 Bendt. I work with Ecos Consulting, and I am

2 here as a consultant for Pacific Gas &

3 Electric. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

5 Edison Electric Institute. 6 MR. DELASKI: Andrew deLaski, 7 Appliance Standards Awareness Project. 8 MR. JOHNSON: I am Doug Johnson,

9 Consumer Electronics Association. 10 MR. ALBERT: Larry Albert from 11 Black & Decker, representing Power Tool

12 Institute. 13 MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris from the 14 Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers.

15 MR. HABBEN: Rick Habben with Wahl 16 Clipper Corporation.

17 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with 18 Earthjustice. 19 MR. HORNQUIST: Edwin Hornquist,

20 Southern California Edison. 21 MS. AMANN: Jennifer Amann,

22 ACEEE.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8 1 MR. KIDO: Michael Kido, DOE

2 Office of the General Counsel. 3 MR. LAUF: Dan Lauf, D&R

4 International.

5 MR. WORTHINGTON: Scott 6 Worthington, Navigant Consulting. 7 MR. MALINOWSKI: Matt Malinowski, 8 Navigant Consulting.

9 MR. VLADIMER: Michael Vladimer 10 with Navigant Consulting. 11 MR. SWOPE: Toby Swope, D&R

12 International. 13 MR. JONES: Matt Jones, D&R

14 International. 15 MR. BAER: I'm Matt Baer, Navigant 16 Consulting. 17 MR. HOEKSTRA: Peter Hoekstra, 18 Navigant Consulting.

19 MS. KURRASCH: Ann Kurrasch with 20 Navigant Consulting.

21 MR. FASSLER: Rich Fassler with 22 Power Integrations.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9 1 MR. SHARP: Mark Sharp with

2 Panasonic. 3 MR. ANDERSON: Wayne Anderson,

4 Motorola. 5 MS. THOMPSON: Jacquelyn Thompson,

6 Keller & Heckman. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks 8 to all of you for joining us this morning. 9 As Vic said, we do have a very 10 full day. I am going to take a quick spin 11 through the agenda. I think all of you 12 received a packet with lots of information in 13 it as you walked in the door and registered. 14 I think we have fully 200 slides. That is how 15 much content there is today, so we are going 16 to have to stay on our toes. 17 Following this segment, 18 introductions and agenda review, we are going 19 to have a brief regulatory overview and 20 following that some additional information on 21 energy conservation standards and rulemakings. 22 Then, there is an opportunity for any person

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10 1 that wishes to do so to make brief 2 introductory focusing remarks on issues that 3 are important to him or her. 4 We will take a break mid-morning, 5 and then we will proceed with the scope of the 6 analysis, test procedures, we will have lunch 7 midday, and then proceed after lunch with a 8 more detailed description of all of the 9 different analytics that comprise this meeting 10 -- market assessment, product price 11 determination, energy use and end use, load 12 characterization, technology assessment, 13 screening analysis, engineering analysis.

14 We'll take a break mid-afternoon. 15 Preliminary manufacturer impact 16 analysis, life-cycle cost analysis, national 17 impact analysis. We will describe next steps 18 'round about 4:30 or 5:00 or so, and then 19 there is another opportunity for closing 20 remarks, brief closing remarks, anything that

21 individuals wish to raise at the end of the 22 day.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11 1 So that's the plan for today. 2 Questions and comments about that? 3 (No response.) 4 I would ask for your consideration 5 -- many of you have participated in these 6 meetings in the past -- please speak one at a 7 time, please say your name for the record. I 8 am going to be cuing people to speak as best I 9 can. I also wish to encourage follow-on

10 comments. 11 If you would say your name each 12 time you speak, you don't need to say your 13 organizational affiliation, but just say your 14 name, then the record will be very clear. And

15 that's -- this will be -- there will be a 16 transcript of this meeting, it will be a 17 complete record of the meeting, so that will 18 be available for you. And that will be posted 19 on the website, the EERE website, the 20 transcript. 21 If you would please keep the focus 22 here, turn your cell phones on silent mode.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12 1 And if you need to have a conversation with 2 someone next to you, if it's not going to be 3 very brief, then please take it out of the

4 room. We'll understand. 5 And if you can please keep your 6 comments concise, please share the airtime 7 with your colleagues here, then I think this

8 will be a lot more efficient. Let me see. I

9 think that's all that I have. 10 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, Doug. Thank 11 you. 12 I'm just going to mention that we 13 are broadcasting this over the webcast. We 14 are providing webcast to accommodate the 15 stakeholders that obviously can't be here to 16 attend the public meeting. The web broadcast 17 will allow the stakeholders to listen in, view 18 the slides of the presentations. 19 However, unfortunately, the 20 stakeholders will not have the opportunity to 21 submit comments or questions during the 22 meeting through the webcast, other than in

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13 1 terms of the audio quality or any other 2 problems that we are having with the webcast. 3 Okay? 4 We can only have questions from 5 the stakeholders that are actually present at 6 the meeting. That's obviously the group we

7 have in this room. And all stakeholders are 8 encouraged to submit written comments after 9 the public meeting.

10 Let me also mention that we will 11 be sending out an e-mail to those who 12 participated -- excuse me, all stakeholders, 13 but specifically those who participated during 14 the webcast, asking whether or not we can make 15 any improvements in terms of the way we are 16 providing the webcast. We've got 17 approximately 40 people, I believe, that have 18 signed up to participate through the webcast 19 this morning. 20 Okay. Let me get on to the 21 purpose of the framework document. I would 22 like to summarize for us today the framework

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14 1 document. We are here to present stakeholders

2 with an overview of the statute and all of the 3 departmental actions associated with battery 4 chargers and external power supplies. 5 We are going to present this 6 framework for energy conservation standards 7 for BCs and EPSs. We are going to seek oral 8 comments from the participants, written 9 comments from all stakeholders on the proposed 10 methodologies and requirements that we have

11 included in our framework document. And we 12 are going to discuss and respond to specific 13 issues and questions related to the proposal. 14 I want to emphasize, again, how 15 important it is for us to get your comments as 16 part of this process. We will evaluate all 17 comments, and we will consider all comments 18 that are submitted as part of this process and 19 comment period. 20 Okay. We mention that throughout 21 our presentations we are going to have comment 22 boxes of this type that is specifically going

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15 1 to ask for comments from our stakeholders. 2 That by no means limits you in terms of the 3 questions or comments that you can make as 4 either part of the meeting or in terms of your

5 written comments. So all comments are 6 welcome, but we are going to direct you in

7 certain cases to certain issues that we 8 definitely want to get some feedback from. 9 Okay. The feedback, you can read 10 this slide. We can -- basically, we are 11 telling you exactly how you can provide your 12 comments. We've got an e-mail box that is 13 listed here, or else you can send it through 14 postal mail or courier to Brenda Edwards. 15 Now based on this meeting date, 16 unfortunately, the comment period is scheduled 17 to end on July 20th. We are going to extend

18 that for a week. We will send an e-mail out

19 to all of the stakeholders. The comment 20 period will be extended to July 27th. We 21 would like to get all of the comments in 22 during that period. That will not cause us

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16 1 any problems on our schedule, and we will want

2 to address all of the comments submitted 3 within that period of time. Okay? 4 So you can mark that on your

5 calendars. The 27th is the date that we need 6 to get all of the comments submitted. Any 7 questions before I go on? 8 (No response.) 9 Very good. For me. 10 Regulatory overview. Okay. I 11 believe we have a lot of new people that are 12 participating with us in appliance standards 13 program here that basically haven't been 14 involved in standards regulation under the 15 appliance standards program in the past. 16 We are going to spend a little 17 time just making sure you understand the 18 rulemaking process and what we have been 19 required to do under the various legislations. 20 And in this regulatory overview section I 21 will be covering the following: review of the 22 congressional direction and DOE reactions to

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17 1 the congressional direction, present past and

2 future DOE actions associated with the 3 legislation, and present a timeline for DOE 4 milestones associated with meeting these 5 requirements. 6 Okay. Just quickly, this is 7 obviously the Federal Register notice that was 8 published on June 4th indicating the 9 availability of the framework document for 10 battery chargers and external power supplies, 11 and obviously for this public meeting. 12 Okay. We hope everybody has had 13 the opportunity to download not only the 14 meeting materials that were available on our 15 website, but also the framework document and 16 draft technical report. Those serve as the 17 basis for what we are basically presenting 18 today. 19 Okay. Very quickly, I am going to 20 cover some of the statutory requirements. The 21 Department of Energy is the responsible party 22 for implementing the appliance standards

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18 1 program under the authority of the Energy 2 Policy and Conservation Act of 1975. The 3 Energy Policy Act of 2005, amended the Energy 4 Policy and Conservation Act, adding battery 5 chargers and external power supplies to the 6 standards program. Subsequently, the Energy 7 Independence and Security Act of 2007, EISA, 8 further amended EPCA, resulting in the current 9 rulemaking. 10 Okay. I am going to cover all of 11 the requirements for battery chargers and 12 external power supplies under EPACT and EISA 13 and our timelines associated with it. Okay. 14 First, the Energy Policy Act of 2005. EPACT 15 2005 defined battery chargers and external 16 power supplies. DOE actually published final 17 test procedures for battery chargers and 18 external power supplies on December 8, 2006, 19 and DOE initiated a determination analysis on 20 battery chargers and external power supplies.

21 For the determination on BCs and 22 EPSs DOE actually held a scoping workshop as

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19 1 part of its intended plan. However, most of 2 the analysis that we were conducting on the 3 determination analysis was basically reshifted

4 when EISA came into effect because the 5 determination analysis was canceled due to the 6 enactment of EISA, and we will discuss in the 7 next slide exactly what we are required to do

8 under EISA. 9 Okay. Energy Independence and 10 Security Act of 2007, which amended EPCA, 11 provided definitions for standby and off mode 12 for the test procedures for battery chargers 13 and external power supplies. It provided a

14 definition for what is called Class A external 15 power supplies. It set energy efficiency 16 standards for Class A external power supplies, 17 canceling the EPACT determination of EPSs.

18 EISA also directed DOE to amend 19 BCEPS test procedures to account for energy 20 consumption in standby and off mode, conduct a 21 determination on whether energy conservation

22 standards should be issued for what we call

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20 1 non-Class A external power supplies by 2 December 19, 2009. We will go into the 3 definition of non-Class A a little later, but 4 the bottom line is non-Class A is anything

5 that is not Class A. 6 Okay. We are required to issue 7 energy efficiency standards for battery 8 chargers and external power supplies by July 9 1, 2011, and we are also required to amend the 10 Class A EPS energy standards of July 1, 2011, 11 again by July 1, 2015. Okay. We are going to 12 be very busy under EISA over the next few 13 years. 14 Okay. Just want to put up this is 15 the EISA Class A standard for external power 16 supplies, which became effective over a year 17 ago, July 1, 2008. Many of you will recognize 18 it. It is pretty close to being identical to 19 the California Energy Commission standard. 20 There is a difference in scope of coverage. 21 The levels are exactly the same as the 22 California Energy Commission standard that

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21 1 went into effect on the same date. 2 Okay. Let me just discuss some of 3 the actions we have completed. The DOE test 4 procedure for standby and off mode. Okay. We 5 published a NOPR in August 15, 2008, that 6 incorporated standby and off mode test 7 procedure measurements for battery chargers 8 and external power supplies. We also proposed 9 a multi-voltage EPS test procedure. 10 We held a public meeting, we had 11 significant comments, and we published a final 12 rule in March 27, 2009. Let me mention we did 13 not go forward and incorporate a multi-voltage 14 test procedure in this final rule, that was 15 taken out, and we are still planning on 16 pursuing in the incorporation of our test17 procedures a test measurement for multi18 voltage. 19 All right. That final rule of 20 March 27, 2009, also incorporated reporting 21 requirements for external power supplies as to 22 what needs to be reported to show compliance

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22 1 with the standard. However, because no 2 sampling plan has been issued to date, no one 3 is required to report to date. A sampling 4 plan we expect to be issued by the end of the 5 year. That will be incorporated into a

6 certification enforcement rule for all EPACT 7 2005 products. 8 Okay. Non-Class A. We are 9 addressing non-Class A EPSs through what is 10 called our determination analysis. The 11 determination analysis is due by December 19,12 2009. Pending a positive determination, non13 Class A EPSs will be evaluated for future 14 energy efficiency standards. 15 I also want to make people aware 16 that, if time permits, along with a positive 17 determination, we will consider incorporating

18 non-Class A EPSs into this current standards 19 rulemaking for external power supplies, which 20 is required to be completed by July 1, 2011. 21 Okay. This is the action that we 22 are here today for. We are developing

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23 1 standards for battery chargers and Class A 2 EPSs. Okay. The framework document was 3 published, as I indicated, on June 4th. We 4 are having our public meeting today. Comment 5 period, again, is extended until July 27th. 6 The preliminary analysis will follow, along 7 with the NOPR and final rule, from this 8 framework document presentation, and the final 9 rule is required to be issued by July 1, 2011. 10 Okay. EISA also asked Department 11 of Energy to revisit standards for Class A 12 external power supplies. We are required to 13 go back and look at the standards again and 14 issue a final rule by July 1, 2015, and that 15 is only for external power supplies. That 16 does not incorporate battery chargers. So we 17 have a number of times that we are evaluating 18 standards, obviously, for external power 19 supplies. 20 Okay. Let me just quickly go over 21 the timeline so everybody knows exactly what 22 is due and when. Okay. The standards for

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24 1 Class A EPSs, they are already applicable. 2 They went into effect on July 1, 2008. We 3 incorporated standby and off mode measurements 4 into the test procedures for battery chargers 5 and external power supplies March 27, 2009.

6 Future milestones include 7 determination on non-Class A EPSs by December 8 19, 2009. Energy conservation standards, 9 NOPR, the Notice of Proposed Rule issued, 10 along with a BC active mode test procedure 11 issued. This is a target date for us -- 12 October 31, 2010. Again, that is not a 13 Congressional date; that is a target date. 14 And energy conservation standard final rule by 15 July 1, 2011. 16 Continuing on, energy conservation 17 standards final rule issued by July 1, 2011. 18 Standards applicable for EPSs by July 1, 2013, 19 possibly for battery chargers on that same 20 date. Congress was specific that EPSs, the 21 standards for EPSs, was to become effective on 22 July 1, 2013, did not for some reason indicate

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25 1 when battery chargers are supposed to become

2 effective. So we will consider whether or not 3 they can meet the same dates, the same

4 effective dates. 5 Okay. We expect to again go 6 through this process and issue another final 7 rule by July 1, 2015, to evaluate whether more 8 stringent standards are required in the future 9 for EPSs. And, if so, standards would be 10 applicable on July 1, 2017. Okay. Before we 11 continue on to the next section, any questions 12 about these timelines or our process? 13 MR. DELASKI: Thanks, Vic. I have 14 a couple of questions. One is on the process 15 for the determination analysis for non-Class

16 A. The final determination is due in December

17 19th.

18 MR. PETROLATI: Correct. 19 MR. DELASKI: Can you say anything 20 more about that process that is --

21 MR. PETROLATI: Sure. 22 MR. DELASKI: The Department will

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26 1 publish the determination analysis on that 2 date. The final determination, is there an 3 opportunity for comment and input in advance 4 of that, or how does that --

5 MR. PETROLATI: There will be. We 6 will publish what we are calling a draft 7 determination Notice of Proposed Rule in the 8 very near future for stakeholder comment. If 9 we by any chance reach a negative 10 determination that standards aren't warranted, 11 we would hold a public meeting. 12 If we reach a positive

13 determination that standards are warranted in 14 our draft NOPR, then we would not have a 15 public meeting, but we will entertain 16 stakeholder comments, and we would go to a

17 final rule under those circumstances. 18 MR. DELASKI: Okay. Thanks. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. Say 20 your name for the record. Ladies and 21 gentlemen, these microphones, you need to turn 22 them on as you use them. And as I understand

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27 1 it, if you intend to speak a lot, you can just 2 leave it on, so -- and we should not be 3 getting feedback or anything. So please go 4 ahead. Sorry. 5 MR. ALBERT: Vic, if EISA 6 established standards for Class A EPSs, then 7 why is there a need to be a regulatory process 8 to -- do you need to just confirm those 9 standards? Is that why that is in there? 10 MR. PETROLATI: No, Larry. I'm 11 sorry for the confusion which I created here. 12 The regulatory process that we have 13 undergoing right now for battery chargers and 14 external power supplies is to determine 15 whether or not more stringent standards for 16 external power supplies are warranted beyond

17 those -- what was established under EISA. 18 MR. ALBERT: But just for Class

19 As.

20 MR. PETROLATI: Correct. 21 MR. ALBERT: Okay. All right. 22 Thank you.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28 1 MR. PETROLATI: Yes.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Steve

3 Rosenstock. 4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,

5 Edison Electric Institute. You mentioned I'll 6 say a draft determination analysis.

7 MR. PETROLATI: Correct.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What is the 9 timeframe for when that would be published in 10 the Federal Register? Just because -- since 11 the final is due December 19th, are you 12 planning to try to have it out, let's say, in 13 September and get -- you know, give 30, 60 14 days for stakeholder comments? 15 MR. PETROLATI: Mike, I think the 16 comment period is 60 days for our draft NOPR, 17 if I remember correctly. So, yes, we are 18 planning on giving stakeholders at least 60 19 days, and we would need enough time to 20 obviously evaluate those comments and publish

21 the final rule. We don't have a firm date at 22 this point as to when the draft is going to be

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29 1 published, but the timeframe you indicated is 2 certainly at this point our hope. 3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

4 MR. PETROLATI: Yes. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Other questions

6 related to these slides? Andrew? 7 MR. DELASKI: Just another process 8 question, Vic.

9 MR. PETROLATI: Yes. 10 MR. DELASKI: On Slide 18, you -- 11 or somewhere here you indicated likely timing 12 for the NOPR on Slide 20. Do you have a 13 ballpark estimate for when you hope to have 14 the preliminary TSD done? Do you back that up 15 by some number of months as a ballpark or -- 16 MR. PETROLATI: We certainly have 17 our internal schedules, Andrew.

18 MR. DELASKI: Yes. 19 MR. PETROLATI: And we try not to 20 basically go through our internal schedules.

21 But the bottom line is I think we are in the 22 area of needing at least six months from the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30 1 preliminary analysis to the NOPR. 2 MR. DELASKI: Okay. Thanks. 3 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Okay. Any 4 other questions? 5 (No response.) 6 Very good. Okay. I am -- this is 7 going to -- I am going to try to save some 8 time here. This is our energy conservation 9 standards rulemaking process. Okay. I am 10 going to just provide a very brief overview of 11 the rulemaking process because we are going to 12 be covering in detail a lot of these steps 13 this afternoon, so I am going to be real

14 brief. 15 Okay. The summary of the energy 16 conservation standards rulemaking section. I 17 am going to present a list and description of 18 analyses required during the energy 19 conservation standards rulemaking, and I am 20 going to discuss briefly some of the 21 analytical requirements on each stage of the 22 rulemaking. I also want to emphasize again we

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31 1 will be going in more detail this afternoon on 2 many of these steps. It is to just give you a 3 quick overview. 4 Okay. The first thing I want to 5 show you is what we are required to do. EPCA

6 directs DOE to consider seven factors when 7 setting energy conservation standards. I will 8 let you read those seven factors on the left, 9 and on the right are corresponding types of 10 analyses that have to be done to evaluate each 11 of the seven criteria. And we will be going 12 over each of the DOE analyses and what takes 13 place in those this afternoon. 14 Okay. As you all know, we are at 15 the framework document stage. Okay. The top 16 pictorial shows the stages in the rulemaking 17 process. What we are going to do is to 18 present methodologies during the framework 19 document for our preliminary -- excuse me, to 20 present methodologies for the preliminary 21 analysis, we are going to discuss specific 22 issues related to the analyses, and we are

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32 1 going to seek input, obviously from attendees, 2 on the methodologies, assumptions, and data 3 sources, as well as anybody who doesn't attend 4 through our comment process. 5 Okay. From the framework 6 document, we go into the second phase or 7 second stage called the preliminary analysis 8 stage, and in that stage we are going to 9 present preliminary results and planned 10 methodology for NOPR analyses, to discuss 11 specific issues related to the analyses, and 12 to seek additional input from attendees on 13 methodologies, assumptions, and data sources. 14 Okay. The preliminary analysis -- 15 these are the steps required to complete the 16 preliminary analysis stage. As I indicated, 17 we will be discussing each of those steps this

18 afternoon. 19 The NOPR -- okay. During the NOPR 20 phase, we are going to present our NOPR 21 results, Notice of Proposed Rule results. We 22 are going to propose energy conservation

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33 1 standards as part of the Notice of Proposed 2 Rule. We are further going to discuss 3 specific issues related to the analysis, and 4 we are going to seek further input from our

5 stakeholders. 6 NOPR stage will address any 7 comments received from the preliminary 8 analysis stage, and refine the analyses as 9 needed. In addition, the NOPR stage will 10 contain impact analyses for life-cycle cost 11 subgroups, potential impacts on manufacturers, 12 the impacts on the electric and gas utilities, 13 impacts on employment, impacts on the 14 environment, and any undue burdens from the 15 standard and regulatory process. We will go

16 into a little more detail on some of these

17 this afternoon. 18 Okay. Final two stages. 19 Obviously, we have our final rule, which we 20 are planning on getting published by July 1, 21 2011, of course the effective date. The 22 effective date for EPSs, as we discussed, will

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34 1 be July 1, 2013, and we will make a

2 determination as to the effective date for 3 battery chargers. 4 Okay. This is just to give you a 5 quick overview of all of the stages that are 6 involved in the regulatory process. 7 Obviously, there is a chance for significant 8 stakeholder input throughout the entire 9 process, and we are at the first stage. Okay. 10 Any questions on this before I turn it over 11 to Doug? 12 (No response.) 13 Okay. Great. Doug, looks like we

14 can start with the stakeholder comments. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Wayne, I 16 see you have a question. 17 MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris. Thank 18 you. Wayne Morris. I guess the one thing

19 that is sort of left out of this -- and I 20 figure you are going to cover it at some point 21 today, I hope -- is the issue of the test 22 procedure. And we had a public meeting here a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35 1 few months back in which we requested some 2 changes to the test procedure for battery 3 chargers.

4 And I know there's a lot of work 5 going on in various places, but there is so

6 far at least in this discussion of all of the

7 timelines there is no real discussion about 8 the amendments or changes to the battery 9 charger test procedure, which has been 10 requested. 11 MR. PETROLATI: Yes, let me 12 mention it, Wayne. One, we -- I did have it 13 on the slides for milestones. I will go back.

14 But we indicated that we want a final test 15 procedure for battery chargers incorporating 16 active mode to be completed prior to the 17 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for standards. 18 I think the date we gave was October 31, 2010. 19 Okay. We also, of course, this 20 morning are going to be discussing changes in 21 the test procedures based on the significant 22 comment that we received at our last public

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36 1 meeting for incorporating standby and off 2 mode, and specifically on active mode and 3 other issues for change under the test 4 procedure. So our plan is to have the battery 5 charger test procedure completed in final form 6 right now at a target date of before October 7 31, 2010. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne, go ahead. 9 MR. MORRIS: Thanks, Vic. That 10 helps a little bit. I guess the other 11 question, then, that begs is, then, how can we 12 be doing engineering analysis and the other 13 types of stakeholder analysis that is 14 necessary in here when we don't have a test 15 procedure finalized yet? 16 Are you going to be doing the 17 market assessments and screening analysis and 18 manufacturing impact analysis and engineering 19 analysis based on the possibility of a change? 20 In other words, what you got today and then 21 also what happens if we change? I guess 22 that's what I'm struggling with here.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37 1 MR. PETROLATI: It's a good 2 question, Wayne. Before we get into those 3 types of details, let's have the test 4 procedure presentation, so you can see what we 5 are thinking of. And you're right, this will 6 require us to basically take into account a 7 number of variables, but we are pretty well

8 convinced from stakeholder comment that active 9 mode is going to be incorporated into the test 10 procedure. 11 So that is our current plan, and 12 everything we are doing right now is in fact 13 considering active mode as being incorporated 14 into the battery charger test procedure. The 15 question is: is there going to be any changes 16 in terms of the way the measurements are made, 17 et cetera, ad infinitum, from the test 18 procedure that was finalized in California? 19 And that is something we are going to be 20 presenting this afternoon for stakeholder

21 comment.

22 MR. MORRIS: Great. That answers

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38 1 it. Thank you.

2 MR. PETROLATI: Yes.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's wait for 4 that. So now there is an opportunity for any 5 person who wishes to do so to make brief 6 summary remarks about their issues, their 7 concerns, and the like. And we have two 8 presentations -- a request from two 9 individuals to give brief presentations based 10 on the work they have done previously on these

11 issues. 12 And I am going to hold those to 13 last, and start with those individuals that 14 would like to comment now. Andrew, do you

15 wish to comment now?

16 MR. DELASKI: Sure. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 18 MR. DELASKI: Andrew deLaski, 19 Appliance Standards Awareness Project. I just 20 want to make a couple of brief comments. 21 First of all, I want to 22 congratulate Vic for getting the very first

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39 1 DOE workshop up on the web. I think this is a 2 milestone for DOE that is important and 3 helpful as you have been in other proceedings 4 as well. And, you know, the Department is 5 doing a better job I think at making things 6 more accessible to the public by doing this. 7 And I also would suggest that for 8 this proceeding and for others, that finding a 9 method to put comments -- to post comments on 10 the Department's website would also facilitate 11 input from stakeholders. At this point, it is 12 very difficult to get other stakeholders' 13 comments. It entails coming in person to the 14 Department to actually get them. 15 In terms of this specific docket, 16 I have a couple of overarching comments I 17 wanted to emphasize. One is that as the 18 Department moves forward to address battery 19 chargers, that the framework document 20 indicates looking at a pretty narrow scope of 21 products in the analysis, and that the 22 analysis needs to be broadened to look at a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40 1 broader scope of different types of battery 2 chargers to better reflect what is in the

3 market and to better form the basis of 4 standards that meet the legislative criteria. 5 I also want to applaud your 6 comments briefly before on active mode, 7 including active mode in a future -- in the 8 analysis and in standards I think is 9 absolutely critical, as you indicated or 10 implied in your comment -- in your opening

11 comments. 12 With regard to external power 13 supplies, one of the levels that DOE should 14 consider is the Energy Star version 2.0 15 standard. The Department had a history of 16 looking at Energy Star levels as one of the 17 levels evaluated for rulemaking, so I would 18 expect that you would do so in this docket as

19 well and recommend so. 20 And, finally, back on the battery 21 charger test method, the test method that we 22 recommend that you adopt is the California

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41 1 battery charger test procedure. It has been 2 well developed through the California process 3 through extensive stakeholder input and would 4 be a way to move forward in an expeditious 5 manner and give certainty to the analysis and 6 the stakeholders if you could indicate early 7 on if that's the direction you are going to 8 go.

9 Thanks a lot. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other 11 individuals that wish to make summary remarks? 12 Wayne? 13 MR. MORRIS: Thank you. Wayne

14 Morris. I want to thank Andrew also for 15 teeing up a number of subjects and appreciate 16 his comments. They track, in many cases, 17 along with the comments that AHAM has made 18 before in regard to the test procedure and 19 other elements, particularly in the 20 encouragement for the Department to include 21 active mode in a battery charger test 22 procedure.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42 1 I think it's a rare thing when 2 perhaps Andrew and ACEEE and many other 3 stakeholders and AHAM all agree in one thing, 4 and we are just trying to figure out how to 5 get it done rather than what it is going to

6 be. 7 I would keep in mind and ask all 8 of the participants to keep in mind a couple 9 of things, which I know are pretty obvious, 10 but I do think that they need to be stated. 11 One is that this is a component. It's a 12 component in most cases, a battery charger. 13 It may well be in many cases as an external 14 power supply a component of an end product.

15 So it has to be treated a little 16 differently than some of the other rulemakings 17 that you would have on refrigerators or other 18 products along those lines. So the impact is 19 not just on this component situation, but also 20 the impact on the end product and the way it

21 is used. 22 While there are a number of large

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43 1 companies that have significant business in 2 the battery charger/battery rechargeable 3 product business, there are also a very large 4 number of small companies who maintain as part 5 of their product line one, two, five products 6 that are battery rechargeable. But these are 7 important products to them. They are 8 important products to the consumer. They 9 fulfill one or more specific functions that

10 the consumer needs. 11 In some cases, it is regarding 12 safety, that the use of a battery rechargeable 13 product in and around a water environment can 14 be a safety mechanism for the consumer, and we 15 need to keep that in mind as we do any changes 16 that are necessary to these that we don't 17 impact the safety of the product, but also 18 that we keep in mind the smaller companies 19 that are impacted by this. 20 I would also say that in regard to 21 the fact that we are dealing with a fairly 22 significant economic recession right now, that

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44 1 is really impacting small manufacturers. And 2 I don't know how you put that into the 3 manufacturer, or better said the government 4 regulatory impact analysis and manufacturer's 5 analysis, or sometimes referred to with the 6 acronym GRIM, but I think that we do have to

7 focus somehow on the fact that this recession 8 has really kicked a lot of small manufacturers

9 in the teeth. 10 And it is not coming back quickly. 11 You know, we may be looking at a standard 12 that takes effect in 2011 or 2013 or 2015, but 13 there are signs out there that many of these 14 companies will still be suffering and still be 15 beginning to come out of that in that period 16 of time. And so I think that in any economic 17 analysis we do I am hoping that we go beyond 18 the normal economic analysis and consider the 19 impact of where we have companies trying 20 desperately to recover from this economy.

21 I think that a lot of what we are 22 doing depends on the changes to the test

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45 1 procedure. We encourage that to be done 2 early. In fact, I would say we would 3 encourage it to be done earlier than the 4 schedule that you even showed, Vic. We would 5 certainly hope that by the end of this 6 calendar year we ought to have a firm NOPR out 7 on the test procedure changes. 8 And I know that your staffs have a 9 little crunch, but I think we could add a few 10 more rows of consultants behind you to take 11 care of that and give some work to some needy 12 people here in Washington. 13 (Laughter.) 14 That's all I have. Thank you very

15 much. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Wayne. 17 MR. MORRIS: Thanks, Vic. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to 19 follow on, Gary? 20 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. 21 Yes, I would like to follow Wayne's comments 22 by speaking briefly to the state of the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46 1 economy. I can't tell you how many utility

2 customers I have talked to that are stressed 3 by the state of the economy, having difficulty 4 paying their utility bills. 5 These customers are frequently at 6 a loss to find what more they can do to reduce 7 their energy use. They have appliances in 8 their homes about the energy use of which they 9 are unaware, and they have no control over the 10 energy use of these items. So I would suggest 11 to you that the economy affects not only small 12 manufacturers, but it affects millions of low 13 income utility ratepayers that, left to their 14 own means, are at a loss to deal with energy

15 uses in their homes. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 17 Other comments here, summary 18 remarks here at the outset? Yes, Tim. 19 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, 20 Earthjustice. I just want to very quickly 21 amplify something that Andrew pointed out that

22 I am not sure has been raised since the new

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47 1 administration came in, and that is that it 2 really is important to us, and probably I'm 3 sure also to the industry, to have all of the 4 comments that come into this rulemaking made

5 available. If that could be done on 6 regulations.gov or through some other means, 7 it is -- yes, I guess that's it.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Some online media. 9 Yes, okay.

10 Additional comments? Because we 11 have two brief presentations that we are going 12 to proceed with. Okay. Let's do that. Are 13 you cued up? And these slides, by the way, 14 were including in your packet. So you -- I 15 think this is pretty close to the current 16 version. Right? Yes. 17 MR. FERNSTROM: So thank you. I 18 am Gary Fernstrom representing the Pacific Gas 19 & Electric Company. PG&E is the largest 20 combined gas and electric company in the

21 nation. It serves 15 million customers in

22 Northern and Central California.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48 1 And in giving this presentation, I 2 would like to recognize the significant and 3 long-term contribution that Ecos Consulting

4 has made to this effort. I would like to 5 recognize the work of the California Energy 6 Commission PIER program, and in the last 7 couple of years the work of the Southern 8 California Edison Company. Edwin Hornquist is 9 here representing Edison.

10 So PG&E has been involved in 11 looking at battery chargers for a long time.

12 I would like to comment on the first bullet in

13 this slide and then the last one. We met 14 collectively in San Francisco in 2003 to talk 15 about a California standard for external power 16 supplies and battery chargers. 17 At that meeting, Larry Albert, who 18 is here today, personally convinced me that 19 moving ahead quickly with battery charger 20 systems probably was not advisable because it 21 is complicated due to the different battery

22 chemistries.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49 1 So here we are six years later.

2 PG&E and its consultants have taken time to 3 look seriously into all of the technical 4 issues associated with battery charger 5 systems. PG&E created a case study to 6 advocate with the California Energy Commission 7 for a battery charger standard. A battery 8 charger test procedure has already been 9 adopted by the CEC. Due to a number of 10 issues, and for a number of reasons, that 11 argument that PG&E prepared is being brought 12 now to Washington to the Department of Energy. 13 This slide shows the diversity of 14 battery charger systems in terms of the 15 capacity, the energy capacity ranging all the 16 way from a tenth of a watt hour to 100,000 17 watt hours. There is a significant diversity 18 of products on the market, and we would 19 encourage DOE, in terms of its scope, to look 20 broadly at the products in the market in order 21 to capture the maximum appropriate energy 22 savings.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50 1 Here we are looking at the energy 2 input from the utility mains, the AC input, 3 and the direct current output of the battery 4 charger system relative to the direct current 5 output. You can see that in the active mode a 6 pretty large portion of the AC input is coming 7 out as DC output. 8 In the maintenance mode, it is 9 about 50/50 or 60/40, and in the no battery 10 mode there is no useful output, DC output, 11 going to the battery, because the battery 12 isn't there. So there is a significant energy 13 saving opportunity in the maintenance mode and 14 in the no battery mode. 15 California has adopted a battery 16 charger standard based on the work of Ecos 17 Consulting, supported by PG&E. We think it is 18 a good standard that has been thoroughly

19 vetted and does include the active mode

20 consideration. 21 PG&E and its consultant, Ecos, 22 have looked at a large number of battery

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51 1 chargers in terms of their performance -- 142. 2 I will not bother you with the details of 3 this spreadsheet. However, I just want to 4 point out that this information is available 5 and is being made public as part of this 6 process for everyone's consideration. 7 This slide looks at the no battery 8 power battery charging systems relative to the 9 measured battery energy, the battery capacity, 10 and watt hours. So here you would have very 11 large battery systems, very small battery 12 systems. 13 What I would like you to notice is 14 there is a wide range in efficiency, so to 15 speak, here. The green line is the target 16 standard that PG&E was proposing to the 17 California Energy Commission. As you look at 18 this, it probably looks quite aggressive to 19 you. But I would like to note that the

20 effective date of a federal standard would be 21 many years from now, and the evidence of 22 products down here below the line indicate the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52 1 technical feasibility of this. 2 PG&E strongly believes that in the 3 long period of time before this standard would 4 become effective, the green line is a 5 reasonable standard to propose. 6 Here we are looking at the 7 maintenance power, again, as a function of the 8 measured battery energy. Same story -- a wide 9 range and a variety of products that fall

10 below the line. 11 This slide reads opposite to the 12 way the others do, so products above the green 13 line would be qualifying relative to PG&E's 14 proposed standard. Again, looking at the 24- 15 hour efficiency as a function of the battery 16 charger system capacity, I would like you to 17 notice the relatively low efficiencies here, 18 in the order of 10, 20 percent. A variety of 19 products falling above the line, plenty of 20 time to get the products falling below the 21 line to come up. It is technically feasible. 22 We are looking here at the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53 1 technology opportunity associated with 2 different types of power supplies. So with 3 the power supply we can improve power supply 4 efficiency, reduce no load power, with the 5 charge control circuitry detect full battery 6 and reduce charge current. This is a 7 particularly important technical opportunity 8 in terms of improving battery charger system 9 efficiency. 10 I won't go into the others, but 11 you can read them at your leisure.

12 This is a mathematical statement 13 of the proposed standard level that PG&E was 14 presenting to the California Energy

15 Commission. 16 This slide goes to the magnitude 17 of the energy saving opportunity associated 18 with this technology. So you can see that for 19 laptops, cell phones, and so on, the 20 predominant charger technology is linear,

21 switch mode. 22 One of the key efficiency metrics

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54 1 is 24-hour efficiency. The stock of these 2 products -- about 1.75 billion; annual energy 3 use, 30 terawatt hours, about one percent of 4 the total electric generation, and I would 5 point out an end use that consumers have very 6 little knowledge of or control over. 7 Approximately two-thirds of this

8 can be saved with the standard that PG&E was 9 proposing for the California Energy 10 Commission, and now brings as a recommendation 11 to the Department of Energy, savings about 20

12 terawatt hours. 13 Thank you. I would like to now 14 ask Dr. Paul Bendt from Ecos to present the 15 rest of the presentation. 16 MR. PETROLATI: Gary, I would just

17 like to take a minute -- I would like to take 18 a minute to also thank PG&E for providing us 19 the data that you have accumulated, which will 20 help us quite a bit in our standards analysis

21 as well. 22 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you, Vic. I

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55 1 am pleased to have the opportunity to do so. 2 MR. PETROLATI: Thank you. 3 DR. BENDT: I have a microphone 4 on. I am Dr. Paul Bendt with Ecos Consulting. 5 We are here as a consultant for PG&E. My 6 presentation is primarily about some technical

7 comments to the framework document. 8 I will go through this pretty 9 quickly, because I think we will actually have

10 more time this afternoon to talk more about 11 some of the issues here. But let me just hit 12 a couple of points fairly quickly.

13 The first one has to do with the 14 choice of representative products that are 15 presented in the framework document. And as 16 Gary's presentation described, there is a lot 17 of battery charger products out there, one and 18 three-quarter billion products. 19 These cover a very wide range of 20 different types of products. And we were 21 concerned that the choice of representative 22 products is a pretty narrow range. It

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56 1 included home appliances and power tools.

2 If we look at the -- some of the 3 market research that PG&E has done on battery 4 chargers, this is a list of some of the major 5 categories, and you will notice in this these 6 numbers are particularly in California, but 7 they will scale up to the rest of the United

8 States. 9 Out of the 200 million battery 10 chargers in California, less than 10 percent 11 were in the power tools, and this line 12 includes the home appliances. So we were 13 concerned that the representative products 14 ignored many, many categories of battery 15 chargers in wide use. 16 In fact, if we look at the -- this 17 graph shows for the different product 18 categories the number of products, logarithmic 19 scale, and the annual energy use for each of 20 them. So basically this is a quick way of 21 showing products that are more toward this 22 upper right corner are the ones that are

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57 1 consuming more energy in a year. 2 So we see the yellow dots are just 3 some of those that are toward the higher end, 4 and of this the power tools is not even 5 amongst the top four or five energy-using 6 categories. And we would suggest picking 7 representative products that include more of 8 these categories that represent some of the 9 energy use. 10 The big issues that arise in this 11 is that in many cases these other products use 12 different types of technologies than the 13 appliances and power tools, and so the 14 technology discussion can be much broader by 15 considering the broader range of products. 16 Also, the standards that get 17 enacted will be standards that do apply to all 18 the battery charger products. We need to make 19 sure that the standards are appropriate not 20 just to the power tools, but are appropriate 21 to all products. The energy savings analysis 22 needs also to consider the savings of all

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58 1 these product categories. 2 And, finally, some of the other 3 categories have some very efficient 4 technologies that are being used, and because 5 they are appearing in inexpensive consumer 6 products these technologies are obviously 7 readily available and quite cheap. We want to 8 make sure that those don't get missed. 9 If we looked only at certain 10 specific products, we might miss the fact that 11 there are actually some very good technologies 12 available for making efficient battery 13 chargers. 14 The second major -- so here our

15 recommendations would be to consider a broader 16 range of products, and we don't really need to 17 consider every possible end use. So one can 18 still work with a handful of products. It is 19 the electronics in the battery charger that 20 are important for determining its efficiency. 21 It is not how it is packaged, whether the 22 power supply is internal or external, whether

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59 1 the batteries are detachable or not. Those 2 don't affect the efficiency, but the

3 electronics do. 4 And, finally, what the battery 5 actually powers is not important. When we 6 look at the battery charger system, we are 7 interested in the efficiency of that system, 8 and we can -- many different types of end uses 9 use the same technology in the battery 10 charging components. 11 So when we advocate for a larger 12 range of representative products, we are not 13 saying there need to be a lot more total 14 number of representative products. They just 15 need to be spread better across the available 16 battery charger product range. 17 The next area that really came up 18 is the whole question of whether a wall 19 adapter, if it's part of a product, should be 20 considered an EPS or a battery charger. And 21 here I am mainly going to address battery 22 chargers, but all battery chargers have a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60 1 power supply, whether it's internal or

2 external. 3 And the battery charger standards 4 should really treat battery chargers 5 neutrally. That is, they should treat battery 6 chargers with internal power supplies and 7 battery chargers with external power supplies 8 should be the same. The packaging isn't what 9 matters on battery chargers.

10 We looked -- the framework

11 document describes some tests to be used to 12 try to distinguish whether or not a wall 13 adapter behaves like an EPS or like a battery 14 charger. And we took a few products to look 15 at this to see how they behaved, and in each 16 pair we took one product that was clearly a17 battery charger, and these it was a do-it18 yourself power tool, and one that was not a 19 battery charger -- the one we used here was a 20 reading light that in fact doesn't have a 21 battery at all.

22 But in both cases the wall

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61 1 adapter, if you took it apart, it is actually 2 just an AC transformer. And when we plot the 3 load curves there are slight differences from 4 how they are rated, but no real qualitative 5 difference. So the electrical testing that 6 one can do doesn't distinguish between a 7 product that should be an EPS or a product 8 that might be a component of a battery 9 charger. 10 Similarly, on the switch modes, 11 here we have one that is a lawnmower/power 12 tool battery charger, one that is a laptop EPS 13 that is capable of powering the laptop without 14 a battery attached at all. Again, there are 15 some differences in how they are rated and 16 what the performance is, but the basic 17 characteristics are very similar. They have 18 got a constant voltage region. They hit a 19 limiting current and have a constant current 20 region. 21 So the tests that are proposed are 22 very good at determining what type of

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62 1 technology is there, whether it's a linear 2 adapter or a switch mode adapter. They have 3 very different characteristics. But whether 4 it's an EPS or a battery charger is not really 5 apparent by doing the electrical testing.

6 From here we would recommend that 7 the DOE stick with the approach that is

8 identified in the framework document that is 9 Approach A. And as a reminder, Approach A 10 basically says that if a battery charger 11 system has a wall adapter, include it in the 12 battery charger test. 13 The real part of this is that for 14 the battery charger you don't really have to 15 go through a whole analysis to determine if 16 the wall adapter is an EPS or not. If it is a 17 supplied with a battery charger, you test it 18 with the battery charger. 19 And, second, EPSs, as the 20 definition is given in EISA--as the framework 21 document notes--EISA kind of supersedes 22 whatever distinctions might be made. It

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63 1 identifies whether or not an EPS is a Class A 2 EPS regardless of its electrical

3 characteristics. 4 And so we would advocate focusing 5 on the physical characteristics from EISA, and 6 just when it's a battery charger and there's a 7 wall adapter they get tested together. So 8 Approach A here seems to be a very consistent

9 recommendation. 10 The final piece we had is one that 11 Andrew had already mentioned, that DOE include 12 an analysis of Energy Star level 2. And we 13 note that this Energy Star level 2 is 14 basically the level that has been adopted by 15 the European Union for standards that will 16 take effect in 2011 in the European Union. 17 So in -- if DOE does indeed adopt 18 this Energy Star level 2, it is going to be a

19 level that manufacturers will be familiar with 20 years earlier in trying to meet those 21 efficiency levels in the European Union.

22 I think that concludes the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64 1 comments that I have. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 3 Do we have other summary remarks

4 here at the outset? Steve Rosenstock. 5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, not a 6 summary, but is there time to ask questions 7 about the presentations? 8 MR. BROOKMAN: I think as the day 9 goes on, we will entertain questions. 10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank 12 you.

13 Other comments here at the outset

14 before we move into the more detailed 15 presentation? 16 (No response.) 17 I think we -- we'll just keep 18 going for awhile, then. So we'll take a break 19 maybe 10:45 or so, since we started a little

20 bit late. 21 Everybody has had a chance to say 22 what they wish to say here at the outset?

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65 1 (No response.) 2 Then, let's proceed with the 3 presentation materials.

4 MR. MALINOWSKI: Hi. Good 5 morning. My name is Matt Malinowski, and I 6 work for Navigant Consulting. We are DOE's 7 consultants, technical consultants, on this 8 rulemaking. And I will be walking you through 9 the scope of analysis, talking about issues 10 that Paul just touched on, including divisions 11 between battery chargers and external power 12 supplies. And after that hopefully we will 13 work in a short break, and then we will move 14 on to test procedures. 15 I would like to thank, first of 16 all, the stakeholders for presenting their 17 thoughts, preparing their thoughts on these 18 issues of scope and test procedures. And 19 hopefully the material I am about to present 20 will work in concert with those and prompt 21 some good discussion and questions. 22 So today I will be -- I will begin

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66 1 by talking about scope. It is an important 2 issue, because depending on the interpretation 3 of the scope that DOE takes, will affect which 4 products are subject to the current EISA EPS 5 standards, as well as potential amendments to 6 those standards and potential new BC

7 standards. 8 So in this section I will present 9 the definitions that frame the scope of the 10 analysis, as well as pose questions on how to 11 interpret some of these definitions, and, 12 finally, present some of DOE's approaches to 13 answering those questions. 14 Let me begin with the statutory 15 definitions. As you are aware, EISA requires 16 DOE to prescribe a final rule for external 17 power supplies and battery chargers. External 18 power supplies are “external power supply

19 circuits used to convert household electric 20 current into DC current or lower voltage AC 21 current to operate a consumer product”; 22 whereas a battery charger is defined as “a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67 1 device that charges batteries for consumer 2 products, including battery chargers embedded 3 in consumer products.” We have some 4 illustrations of the two kinds of products on 5 the right. 6 And to help with this discussion 7 and in developing its approaches, DOE has also 8 come up with several working definitions. And 9 these are important, because it is not enough 10 to just say "external power supply" when 11 looking at one of these -- one of these 12 devices here, because once you call it an 13 "external power supply," then it automatically 14 becomes subject to the standards analysis and 15 subject to standards. 16 So, instead, when talking about 17 physical form, we have been calling these 18 devices "wall adapters." And here is a quick 19 definition, "A wall adapter connects the 20 consumer product to AC mains." I would like

21 to stress that whereas all EPSs take the form 22 of wall adapters, not all wall adapters are

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68 1 necessarily EPSs, and, therefore, are not 2 necessarily subject to standards. So here is 3 just a quick illustration of that. One is a 4 superset of the other. 5 Talking about EPSs within wall 6 adapters, I will bring up again that EISA 7 definition. And, as you know, EISA sets 8 standards for Class A EPSs, which are EPSs -- 9 "devices that convert line voltage AC to only 10 one lower voltage AC or DC output, power a 11 separate end use product, contain a separate 12 enclosure, can be permanently attached or 13 removable, and have a nameplate output power 14 less than or equal to 250 watts." 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Could we go back 16 to the prior slide for a moment? This is Gary

17 Fernstrom.

18 MR. MALINOWSKI: Of course.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it's 20 appropriate -- we have almost 30-plus slides 21 in this segment, so let's entertain questions 22 as we go along briefly. Gary?

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So I will 2 be quick. What would be an example of a wall 3 adapter that is not an external power supply? 4 MR. MALINOWSKI: Sure. Well, one 5 issue is maybe, for example, we have Class A 6 and non-Class A power supplies. And there is 7 an issue of wall adapters for certain battery 8 charging applications being excluded from 9 Class A. And it is not immediately clear 10 whether those are just excluded from Class A 11 or they are excluded from external power 12 supplies in general. So those might be -- 13 those might be devices that are wall adapters, 14 but whether or not they belong in the EPS 15 category. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So I 17 understand that. But by application, do you 18 have an example by application and product 19 where a wall adapter might not be an external 20 power supply?

21 MR. MALINOWSKI: I will move into

22 that in the slides. And there are several

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70 1 places where I will pause and maybe we can 2 bring up the discussion again. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, good. 4 MR. MALINOWSKI: Thank you. Good. 5 If there are no more comments,

6 I'll move on. So I will start with the

7 definition of Class A. As Vic mentioned 8 earlier, standards have been in place for 9 Class A EPSs since last July. And here is the 10 quick overview of what is a Class A EPS. 11 A Class A EPS is not a device, 12 however, that powers medical devices, battery 13 chargers for products that are fully or 14 primarily motor operated, or battery chargers 15 that power -- or, sorry, devices that power 16 the charger of a detachable battery pack, 17 which is a battery that is contained in a 18 separate enclosure from the product or

19 intended to be removed or disconnected from 20 the product for recharging.

21 And so we have EPSs divided into 22 Class A EPSs, which constitute the majority of

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71 1 shipments and estimated energy consumption, 2 and these are the ones that are subject to the

3 EISA standards. 4 And then, on the other hand, there 5 are the non-Class A EPSs, which consist of 6 devices that fall outside of Class A through

7 some of those definitional criteria. And 8 these are subject to the DOE determination 9 analysis that we talked about earlier, which

10 is due on December 19th. 11 Yes, please. 12 MR. ALBERT: Larry Albert. Just 13 quickly -- 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Larry, get close to 15 that microphone. Okay. Thank you. 16 MR. ALBERT: This may address what 17 Gary's question was before. The first line 18 there says that non-Class A EPSs consist of19 EPSs. And so my understanding is that non20 Class EPSs were that subset of products that

21 fell outside of the definition of Class A EPSs 22 and are not necessarily EPSs themselves.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72 1 And so this might be a case where 2 you would take the wall adapter working 3 definition and say that it's the -- consists 4 of wall adapters that fall outside of the 5 Class A definition. All right? Because 6 there's nothing I think in the statute that 7 declares that anything that is not a Class A 8 EPS is also an EPS of a different class, 9 right? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

11 MR. MALINOWSKI: Good. And 12 finally, I'd like to note that if the 13 determination analysis on non-Class A returns 14 a positive result, these non-Class A EPSs may

15 be combined and rolled into this current 16 rulemaking, such that possible future

17 standards that would become effective in -- or

18 that would be issued in 2011 would include 19 battery chargers as well as all EPSs, what are 20 currently considered Class A and non-Class A. 21 Let me delve briefly into this

22 issue of non-Class A in terms of what is

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73 1 included in the DOE determination. On the 2 left here you have the four different types 3 that DOE is currently analyzing, and on the 4 right are phrases from the Class A definition 5 that describe each type that would be excluded

6 from Class A. 7 Let me focus just on the bottom 8 row, a category that DOE has been calling 9 “EPSs for BCs.” And these are EPSs that power 10 the charger of a detachable battery pack or 11 wall adapter that is part of the charger's 12 detachable battery pack, or that charge the 13 battery of a product that is fully or 14 primarily motor operated. And I will just go

15 into a little bit more detail on these. 16 And what is included in this type, 17 in this category, depends on the 18 interpretation of detachable battery pack and 19 motor operated. And as was mentioned in the 20 framework document, DOE interprets "detachable 21 batteries" as batteries that are wholly 22 outside the physical boundaries of the end-use

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74 1 product and that are intended to be 2 disconnected from the product for recharging.

3 And this is an issue that DOE would welcome 4 your comments, whether oral or written.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 7 EEI. I guess I'm a little confused. So 8 something, a battery for a golf cart, the 9 batteries may or may not come out of the golf 10 cart when they are being recharged. It 11 depends on the type of golf cart I think. And 12 they are -- batteries operate the motors that 13 power the golf cart. So for that type of 14 system, would that be included or excluded?

15 MR. MALINOWSKI: So in that case 16 -- in that case, we would probably go down to 17 the next part of the slide, which talks about 18 this intersection between motor-operated 19 products and detachable batteries. And so far 20 DOE is only aware of motor-operated products

21 that use these external batteries.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that all that

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75 1 you wanted to say on that, or do you -- are 2 there other things to be said? 3 MR. MALINOWSKI: Well, I guess we 4 definitely appreciate any feedback that you 5 can give on the products that include these 6 batteries, when they are removable and when 7 they aren't, during charging. But -- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Steve.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I think it 10 depends on the system. Again, I'm not a golf 11 cart expert, but I -- from what I have seen, I 12 don't know if you "detach the batteries." It 13 is a product that is rechargeable, and you14 don't detach the batteries, and it is a motor15 operated product, so where would it fall? 16 MR. MALINOWSKI: I guess we would 17 have to take a -- I'm not exactly clear. We

18 have to take a closer look at that. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So I guess the 20 Department would welcome people's comments on 21 this definition, the sufficiency of it, the

22 lines of discrimination that are involved.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76 1 Please do, and say your name for 2 the record. If you could hit the button on 3 the microphone. Thank you. 4 MR. GEORGE: Thank you. My name 5 is Santhosh George, and I had a very similar 6 question. We have a digital camera. It has a 7 rechargeable battery in it. So if you are 8 trying to look at this definition, but not a 9 device that follows a battery charger product 10 that is fully or primarily motor operated, 11 battery charger for a detachable battery pack 12 where the battery is contained in a separate 13 enclosure from the product. 14 Yes, it is contained in a separate

15 enclosure. It is intended to be removed or 16 disconnected from the product for recharging. 17 It cannot be removed in order to recharge.

18 It has to be in the camera to have it 19 recharged. 20 But, however, the circuit 21 automatically disconnects the camera from 22 operating, so you really -- so is this

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77 1 excluded, because I had a very similar 2 question last time, and they said, "No, it's

3 not." 4 And here it clearly says if it is 5 disconnected, the circuit is actually 6 disconnected, you don't have to do anything

7 otherwise. So is this excluded? 8 MR. BROOKMAN: So functionally it

9 is like a disconnect. 10 MR. GEORGE: Exactly. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So do you 12 have a response for that?

13 MR. MALINOWSKI: I think what 14 strikes me, though, is when you said that the 15 battery is not removed from the camera for 16 recharging. And I would imagine that that 17 would speak to the previous part of the

18 definition. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you like to 20 make a comment about how the Department should 21 address this issue? Should they -- do you 22 have specific ideas for how this could be

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78 1 addressed to suit your interest? 2 MR. GEORGE: Actually, in a way, 3 yes, because, once again, I don't know if I am 4 going to go around with it, but I will try to 5 be as concise as possible. For all battery 6 chargers, we were told that it has to be 7 energy efficient to level four or higher in 8 order to be -- in order to be packaged along 9 with the digital camera. 10 We were looking at what -- the law 11 that was passed, and what the definition of 12 the law said, and there it was clearly stated 13 that if it -- if your -- it is a battery 14 charger, it is excluded. You don't have to be 15 level four or higher in order to market it. 16 So what happened? We shipped 17 around 20,000–30,000 pieces, and a gentleman 18 from DOE compliance brought this up, saying, 19 "No, we beg to differ. It really is not a 20 battery charger." Even though the whole --

21 the back of the camera will not function 22 without a battery. And if you put the battery

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79 1 in, and you put the charger, you connect it to 2 the battery, the camera stops functioning.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Vic Petrolati. 4 MR. PETROLATI: I may have spoken 5 to you.

6 MR. GEORGE: Yes. 7 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Again, the 8 question comes back to whether or not it is a 9 detachable battery and whether it meets the 10 definition of detachable battery. And as Matt 11 has indicated, the concept was it wasn't

12 intended to be removed from the camera for 13 charging. And that -- and I don't think we

14 have that definition there. 15 Matt, do we show the definition of 16 "detachable battery"? Okay. As battery 17 wholly outside the physical boundaries, let's 18 see. Okay. We don't have the two specifics 19 from EISA on detachable. Okay. "Contained in 20 a separate enclosure from the product, and

21 intended to be removed or disconnected from 22 the product for recharging." And it is not

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80 1 intended to be removed from the product for 2 recharging. 3 MR. GEORGE: But disconnected, 4 yes. But it will -- the system automatically 5 disconnects the battery. That's what I am 6 trying to tell.

7 MR. PETROLATI: Yes. 8 MR. GEORGE: The first part you 9 are absolutely right. Also, if you want, if 10 you have a totally independent battery 11 charger, you can take the battery out, and you 12 can use any other charger. As long as you 13 have a positive and negative, you can charge 14 the battery right out of the wall. 15 So can you actually take it out 16 and charge it? Yes. But if you have the 17 camera, if you have the battery in the camera, 18 and if you put it onto the wall adapter, will 19 it disconnect? Yes, the circuit automatically 20 disconnects. And that's my question. 21 MR. PETROLATI: Matt, the 22 disconnect -- I'm sorry.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81 1 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes.

2 MR. PETROLATI: Does that mean it 3 will not charge the battery? 4 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. No, that 5 means that it will not operate the camera at 6 the same time as it is charging. So it's -- 7 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. It will 8 charge the battery inside the camera. Yes. 9 Okay. We can discuss it a little later. 10 MR. GEORGE: No problem. Thank 11 you.

12 MR. PETROLATI: But I don't 13 believe our decision will change based on your 14 description, and I will have to talk it over

15 with them a little bit. 16 MR. GEORGE: Absolutely. Any help

17 would be -- 18 MR. PETROLATI: Thank you. 19 MR. GEORGE: -- greatly 20 appreciated. 21 MR. PETROLATI: Yes. Very good. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82 1 That's helpful. Thank you. 2 Okay. Yes, please. Larry. 3 MR. ALBERT: Yes, hi. Larry 4 Albert. A couple of things here. First of 5 all, my understanding of what these 6 requirements were and why they were put into a 7 separate category within the statute was I 8 believe because it was trying to address the 9 situations where it was -- clearly the power 10 being provided by an adapter was intended 11 solely for the purposes in charging a battery 12 and not for operating the appliance. 13 And as a result of this, these two 14 considerations, that of the detachability of 15 the battery for charging, and so, therefore, 16 not physically or electrically attached to the 17 appliance during the time it is recharging, 18 and also the use of the application to its 19 motor-operated products, was intended to

20 address the fact that in these cases it could 21 be pretty clearly discerned that the power 22 being developed by the wall adapter was

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83 1 intended for battery charging and that alone. 2 So that was the -- so in keeping 3 with that, I don't think there is anything 4 terribly wrong with the definitions that are 5 there right now, right? 6 One point, though, is you7 mentioned that DOE is only aware of motor8 operated products that use detachable 9 batteries. I don't know much about golf 10 carts, but I know something about power tools. 11 And, in fact, there are a number of power 12 tools that are what we consider integral pack 13 power tools, where the battery is inside the 14 product. 15 It is not detached during 16 charging; it is charged in the product with 17 typically a jack or an adapter or something 18 like that. In that case, we would consider 19 those to fall into the other category. That 20 is, they are not detachable, but they are 21 charged in the product, but the product is 22 motor operated. All right? And so that's

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84 1 really where that would fall in. Does that 2 cause confusion for you guys, or -- 3 MR. MALINOWSKI: I'm sorry, Larry. 4 Let me just clarify that statement. I think 5 -- I'm not sure if it's presented correctly, 6 but I think you are reading it backwards. DOE 7 is only aware of motor-operated products. Oh, 8 I see. I guess -- 9 MR. ALBERT: Motor-operated 10 products that don't have detachable batteries, 11 right?

12 MR. REEVES: Can I -- 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on just a 14 second. Are you all -- 15 MR. ALBERT: Yes, I'm set. Thank 16 you.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Ari? 18 MR. REEVES: Yes, Ari Reeves, D&R. 19 I just wanted to jump in to clarify 20 something. There is an important word that is 21 missing from the slide on the screen right 22 now, and that word is "or." If a --

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Read it with the

2 "or." 3 MR. REEVES: Okay. Okay. From

4 EISA.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Slide number? 6 MR. REEVES: Oh, slide number 42. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 8 MR. REEVES: "DOE interprets 9 'detachable battery' as a battery wholly 10 outside the physical boundaries of the end use 11 product and intended to be disconnected from 12 product for recharging or is motor operated." 13 I'm sorry, no, that's not right. It's not 14 this slide. It's a different slide that you

15 would have to add it to. But the idea is that

16 --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Read the correct 18 interpretation. And this is from the TSD? 19 MR. REEVES: No, I'm looking at

20 the framework document.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: The framework

22 document.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86 1 MR. REEVES: Yes. Page 60. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that is

3 -- 4 MR. REEVES: There we go. Slide 5 41, towards the bottom. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. 7 MR. REEVES: See, EPSs for BCs are 8 EPSs that power the charger of a detachable 9 battery pack or charges the battery of -- oh, 10 there's the "or" -- or charges the battery of 11 a product that is fully or primarily motor 12 operated. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Larry, go ahead. 14 MR. ALBERT: So clearly there is 15 overlap between these two, right? Because 16 there are batteries that are detachable, but 17 they are for products that are motor operated. 18 But there is also batteries that are integral 19 in motor-operated products, right? 20 And by linking these two together 21 with an "or" it has two overlapping sets, 22 right, but the super set created by that

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87 1 covers the intended -- the intended 2 application of wall adapters that are applied 3 only for charging batteries, even though they 4 might be associated with some appliance. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So is that okay for 6 you? 7 MR. ALBERT: It is okay. I was 8 just -- I think in general I think the 9 definitions are okay, one and two. I want to 10 just comment on the fact that there are 11 products that clearly fall into this case of 12 not being detachable, but are being motor 13 operated, right? 14 MR. PETROLATI: Right. 15 MR. ALBERT: Okay. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Vic 17 says right. 18 Okay. Now, Paul.

19 DR. BENDT: Paul Bendt with PG&E. 20 A quick comment on item 5. There are also 21 products that have detachable batteries but 22 are not motor operated. One very simple

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88 1 example is a flashlight powered by AA

2 batteries. You take the batteries out of the 3 flashlight, recharge them in your AA charger, 4 put them back in the flashlight to operate the 5 flashlight. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 7 These definitional issues -- yes? 8 MR. PETROLATI: I was going to ask 9 Matt to respond to that based on our

10 definition. 11 MR. MALINOWSKI: Sure. I guess

12 the issue in that case would be whether these 13 batteries are wholly outside the physical 14 boundaries of the end use product, according

15 to its definition. Most of the AA batteries 16 sit inside products. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, but it -- you 18 cite an exception to that, Paul. 19 DR. BENDT: I would actually agree

20 with Matt that I think in this case the 21 batteries are inside the product -- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89 1 DR. BENDT: -- when it's 2 operating, but they are removed from the 3 product for recharging.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I 5 meant, yes.

6 DR. BENDT: Yes. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, do you want 8 to follow on? And then, I'm coming to you. 9 Actually, this gentleman is in the queue. 10 Okay. Please. Yes, please say your name. 11 MR. ANDERSON: I will. Hey, Matt. 12 Wayne Anderson with Motorola. So we have a 13 product over on the industrial side. I'm not 14 that familiar with it, but we have a wall 15 adapter, okay, and you can use it one of three 16 ways easily with this product. You can go get 17 a battery-only charger, so you can take your 18 battery out of your terminals, what the guy 19 telling me it was, put it in the battery-only 20 charger and charge it stand-alone. That is 21 one application. 22 Then, there's a dual pocket

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90 1 charger, okay? That you can put the terminal 2 device in the front pocket and a separate -- 3 totally separate battery in the bottom -- rear 4 pocket, plug in the same wall adapter. The 5 wall adapter will charge the rear pocket first 6 -- I'm sorry, will charge the phone first, or 7 the terminal first, and that may still be 8 operating, doing data exchange, or some other 9 things. And then, it will go do the rear 10 pocket battery, and then it will quit. 11 And then, the third way you can 12 use it is plug the terminal by itself into the 13 wall adapter, and it just simply charges the

14 wall -- the terminal device while it is in 15 data exchange and things are going on at the

16 same time. 17 So I think that is an example 18 that, you know, I've got a wall adapter that 19 is both things in that world. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: The question -- I 21 am kind of losing track here in the midst of 22 this fine discrimination that we are doing.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91 1 What I'd like to hear from the stakeholders is 2 if the way the Department is segmenting this, 3 and doing these definitions, if it's causing 4 you problems, consternation, whatever. 5 The Department I think is striving 6 to create definitions that are adequate, that 7 are inclusive, that meet the statutory 8 definitions. And we -- I -- and you are here 9 to comment on things that don't work for you.

10 So that's what I want to hear about. 11 MR. ANDERSON: Well, this isn't 12 working for me. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. 14 MR. ANDERSON: I think just in 15 general what you are going to find is 16 functionalities converge, and then you are 17 going to have problems, because you can't do 18 that, it's a power supply or it's a battery 19 charger. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: And so can you 21 describe, then, how the Department would

22 address this?

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92 1 MR. ANDERSON: I'm not sure at 2 this point.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. So that -- 4 MR. ANDERSON: I mean, I know what 5 you're saying --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 7 MR. ANDERSON: -- don't just come 8 with a problem, come with a solution. I'd 9 like to have one for you today, believe me, 10 but, I mean, I don't know. I mean, clearly, 11 it's a battery charging system. It was a 12 battery-only charger.

13 But for the convenience of the 14 user, I mean, he doesn't want to have to go 15 buy another whole thing to do this other, you 16 know, functionality. He can keep using this 17 adapter over and over and over for different

18 functions. So I don't know. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So maybe in 20 your written comments you could think about 21 this, anybody in the room that can address 22 this, because this -- this incredible product

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93 1 variation, the differentiation in the 2 functions and applications, it's just almost 3 limitless, right? It's just -- okay. 4 Yes, please, Larry. And I would 5 like to return to these slides. And I promise 6 you in probably no more than 10 minutes we'll

7 take a break. Go ahead.

8 MR. ALBERT: Just to follow on 9 with what Wayne is saying, this is obviously 10 one of the biggest sticking points with the 11 whole definition of "battery chargers." And 12 it is -- it is something that has to be dealt 13 with, because written into the statutory 14 definition of "battery chargers" is a 15 consideration of what Wayne is describing, 16 which is embedded -- battery chargers embedded 17 in products are themselves considered battery 18 chargers, right? 19 And so the challenge here I think 20 is how do you discriminate between the energy 21 that is used for charging the battery and the 22 energy that might be used for other

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94 1 functionality? In the cases that he describes 2 where a wall adapter could be plugged into a 3 product, and while it's charging the battery 4 the product is also functioning, all right, is 5 a problem, because now the statute describes 6 that as being a battery charger, even though 7 we might normally think of that as being a 8 power supply for the functional support of the 9 end product. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So there was 11 some clarity in that I thought. 12 MR. ALBERT: And only the problem,

13 and not the solution. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Thank you, 15 Larry. 16 (Laughter.) 17 Yes. Go ahead, Wayne. 18 MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris. I may 19 be stating the obvious, but the issue is not a 20 new one for us. We have been struggling with 21 this -- probably even before -- Gary

22 Fernstrom's slide shows when we first met in

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95 1 San Francisco. This has always been an issue.

2 3 And I would only suggest that we 4 are probably not going to be able to come up 5 with definitions that include every possible 6 configuration of a battery charger or, for 7 that matter even, everything that could 8 possibly be some form of a power supply. 9 I think that our challenge is 10 probably going to be to try and write some 11 definitions that get at most of these units 12 that give us the most inclusive capture of the 13 field of these products for the benefit of 14 energy efficiency, and that there may be some 15 products out there that don't quite fit into 16 one or the other cleanly. 17 I think that we really -- you 18 know, these are words. EISA gave us words, 19 but those words are important. And 20 statutorily the Department really doesn't have 21 the latitude to start making up new

22 definitions around this. We have to live with

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96 1 what we've got, or we go back to Congress and 2 ask for a change. Good luck with that. 3 So I think that, you know, we can

4 -- if we can work with the definitions that 5 were given by EISA, and try and come up with 6 some interpretations of those that give us the 7 greatest incorporation of product, and allow 8 us to move forward as quickly as possible with 9 the rulemaking, I think we will have at least 10 served the public well with our energy. 11 Thank you. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I am looking 13 at Matt and wanting to know whether now is an 14 appropriate time to break, or should we do a

15 few more slides? 16 MR. MALINOWSKI: We could go like 17 another -- the next appropriate breaking point

18 would be in around 15 minutes or so. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's pause now

20 then.

21 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's stop. It is

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97 1 now 10:45 by my watch. Let's take 15 minutes.

2 The cafeteria on the bottom floor 3 is not operating. They are renovating it.

4 There is a cafeteria on the fourth floor on 5 the other side of the open atrium here in the 6 building that we are in presently, on the 7 fourth floor. And also, the main cafeteria, 8 which is downstairs underneath, and, you know, 9 across the street over there, that is also 10 available, open for coffee. 11 And the restrooms, as I think most 12 of you know, are on both ends of the hall. 13 You need to wear your badge in the building. 14 You also need to have an ID with you I think. 15 If you are going to exit, they are going to 16 want to see your ID to let you back in. We 17 don't want anybody stranded. If you do get 18 stranded, we will get you back in. 19 (Laughter.) 20 Let me see if anything else -- I

21 think that's it. Let's resume at 11:00. We 22 have had a good start on this. We'll get --

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98 1 we'll keep plugging along as the day 2 progresses. And likely we will work until at 3 least, say, 12:30 before we pause for lunch. 4 So if you need to have a banana or something, 5 please help yourself. We will resume at

6 11:00. 7 (Whereupon, the proceedings in the foregoing

8 matter went off the record at

9 10:45 a.m. and resumed at 11:04 10 a.m.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So at the break I 12 was having conversations with different people 13 about the preceding -- are we all set? --the 14 preceding discussion surrounding definitions 15 and the differentiation that is taking place 16 with these products. And Wayne had a comment

17 or two about kind of the trendlines from his 18 perspective of these. So just mention this, 19 yes, to make this perhaps even more 20 complicated. 21 MR. ANDERSON: Well, what I was 22 talking to Doug about over the break was even

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99 1 now today you can take your laptop computer, 2 plug a cable into it, and charge your phone. 3 So there is a battery charging system. It can 4 be plugged into the wall with AC, or it can be 5 unplugged and just sitting there on the DC 6 battery and the laptop computer charging your 7 phone. So there is those kind of things. 8 Also, desktop computers, the same thing 9 obviously. 10 Then, that begs the question of: 11 so you've got a Dell computer, a Motorola 12 phone, you know, all of these different 13 vendors are involved, who tests what? All of

14 these combinations. Think of all of the 15 different computers, all of the different 16 phones, on and on and on. That's one example. 17 Within Motorola, we were talking 18 this week before I got here, and, you know, I 19 was catching up on where we are headed, and we 20 are going to go towards the micro USB and use 21 the USB charging specification 1.1 as our 22 platform. We like to platform things, okay,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100 1 so that you can interchange among our phones 2 and interchange our accessories amongst our 3 phones, et cetera. 4 So with doing that, you are going 5 to end up being, again, on a platform kind of 6 basis, and you are going to have a lot of 7 interoperability or a lot of functionality 8 that can go on between different

9 manufacturers. So that's where I see it 10 going. 11 And, of course, we all know that 12 the cell phones themselves are getting 13 Bluetooth, they are getting cameras, they are 14 getting on and on and on, all kinds of 15 different functions. And sometimes -- well, 16 especially if you leave the phone on while 17 you're charging, whatever you have chosen in 18 your menu to have on -- like Bluetooth -- , 19 it's still running. Okay? Games are still 20 running. If you are uploading/downloading 21 data to your computer, it's still running. 22 Okay? It just depends on what you have

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101 1 chosen. 2 And we do all of these things for 3 convenience and productivity, so that you can 4 do things in parallel. You don't have to just 5 charge and wait two hours and then come back 6 and upload your files. Obviously, nobody in 7 here wants to do that. So that's why those 8 things are going on. 9 And I will speak to this also. So 10 some of the test procedures have said just 11 turn those off, and sometimes you can and 12 sometimes you can't. Okay? Like the terminal 13 I was talking to earlier is meant to be on all 14 the time. The people that are using it 15 apparently want to keep data moving all the 16 time. So on that one there is not going to be 17 a way of turning that off. You are going to 18 see that in there when you are doing the

19 measurement or -- 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 21 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. Okay. So

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102 1 I am going to return to Matt. We are on slide

2 -- what slide are we on?

3 MR. MALINOWSKI: We are on slide

4 42. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: 42. And hopefully 6 the Webinar is still working for everybody 7 that is -- good, this is working. That's what 8 -- so far we think it's working, right. And 9 so that's good. 10 Okay. Matt, if you could proceed. 11 MR. MALINOWSKI: Great. Yes, I 12 would like to welcome everyone back from 13 break, and I just wanted to stress that, 14 again, the purpose of the standards rulemaking 15 is to deliver energy savings, and so the 16 definitions that we use -- that the Department 17 uses have to align with the real-life 18 products.

19 So we welcome stakeholder comments 20 on the definitions as presented here, as well 21 as any issues where these definitions may not 22 fit the products. And both -- welcome those

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103 1 comments both today at the public meeting and 2 throughout the process. We definitely look 3 forward to working with you on ironing these

4 issues out. 5 So up to this time we were talking 6 about wall adapters and the relationship 7 between wall adapters and external power 8 supplies. And there is a similar issue that 9 comes up on the other side of the field with 10 respect to battery charging systems. 11 So the term that the Department 12 has been using "battery charging system" -- 13 refers to all of the components necessary to 14 charge and maintain a battery, including a 15 wall adapter, if present in the system, a 16 cradle or charging base, the battery, and 17 consumer product. So this is all of the 18 components of the system. 19 However, the BC, the part that is 20 regulated, is only -- is a part of this 21 system, and not every component of the battery 22 charging system would be regulated as a BC.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104 1 So again, you have this same subset/superset

2 structure here on the left. 3 And just to put that in relation 4 with the statutory definition, the battery 5 charger definitions -- the battery charger is 6 “a device that charges batteries for consumer 7 products including battery chargers embedded 8 in consumer products.”

9 What is not clear is: are

10 batteries included -- batteries themselves

11 included in this definition? Is the wall 12 adapter included in this definition? 13 Especially in cases like Wayne mentioned where 14 the product can be charged off of USB when it 15 doesn't need a wall adapter.

16 This is -- the other issue is that 17 the battery charger definition does not 18 specify the type of input power to be used by 19 a battery charger. So alternative DC input 20 power sources include USB ports or cigarette 21 lighter receptacles in cars. And DOE would 22 welcome stakeholder comments on including

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105 1 these DC power battery chargers within the 2 scope of this rulemaking. 3 If there are no comments, I'll

4 move on. 5 So here is just a quick summary 6 slide of what we have been talking about so 7 far. On the left are the wall adapters, and 8 within that the set of products that would be 9 within the scope of this rulemaking and that 10 would be subject to future external power 11 supply standards. On the right are battery 12 charging systems, and within those the 13 components of those systems that would be 14 subject to a battery charger standard -- 15 potential battery charger standard. 16 And I would like to call your 17 attention to what happens when these two 18 overlap. And we have been touching upon this 19 briefly, and I would just like to stress that 20 whether these components -- these wall 21 adapters that are also part of the battery 22 charging system -- whether they are considered

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106 1 an EPS that is part of a battery charging 2 system, is really up to -- depends on the DOE 3 interpretation of the definitions that I 4 presented earlier. 5 So this is one possibility, that 6 DOE would regulate it as an EPS, even though 7 the wall adapter is part of the battery 8 charging system. 9 Another possibility is that it 10 would be regulated as part of the battery 11 charger through BC standards. Or finally, 12 it's possible that it would fall within the -- 13 DOE would interpret the definitions such that 14 they would include the wall adapter as both an 15 EPS and a BC. The potential there is that it 16 would be subject to both standards in that 17 case, both BC and EPS standards. 18 Let me just go briefly, if there 19 are no questions, into what this situation 20 looks like in practice. On the right here you 21 have some products where we have wall adapters 22 that power battery charging systems. And just

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107 1 generally here is kind of diagrammatic 2 illustrations of AC mains, followed by wall 3 adapter, followed by these three different 4 product configurations.

5 And what I would like to stress 6 here is that even though each of these 7 products is much different from the others, 8 and even whether the battery is integral or 9 detachable, or whether it uses a cradle or 10 whether it does not -- what we are trying to 11 focus on here is the wall adapter itself.

12 And the issue of whether this wall 13 adapter, whether it meets the EPS definition, 14 which I will just restate briefly as “a device

15 used to convert household electric current 16 into DC current or lower voltage AC current to 17 operate a consumer product.”

18 And the issue with these wall 19 adapters that I presented earlier in this 20 slide is that they may provide additional 21 functionality beyond just AC/DC conversion, as

22 mentioned in the EPS definition. This

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108 1 functionality is necessary to protect the 2 batteries during charging and can consist of 3 current or temperature sensing, current 4 limiting. All battery chargers have to have 5 this functionality to protect the battery.

6 The issue here is that this 7 functionality can be included in some other 8 part of the battery charging system, or it can 9 be packaged in the wall adapter with -- 10 together with the AC/DC conversion function of

11 it. 12 And how would this wall adapter -- 13 how would this charge control functionality 14 manifest itself? Well, DOE has several 15 criteria that it is considering using to 16 identify the presence or absence of charge 17 control, one of which, for example, is short 18 circuit operation: how the wall adapter 19 performs when the output is short-circuited. 20 Battery chargers are faced with 21 this possibility fairly frequently. When a 22 user overdischarges the battery, the voltage

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109 1 of the battery is much lower than intended. 2 The wall adapter for this application must be 3 able to control the current, but yet provide 4 some current to bring the battery up to a 5 level where it can be charged regularly. 6 In the case of external power 7 supplies, a short circuit is often considered 8 a fault condition, such that the product or 9 device will cease to operate given a short 10 circuit operation. So we have a difference

11 between those two. 12 Similarly, whether or not the wall 13 adapter can power the product with the 14 batteries removed. In many of the products we 15 have seen, the battery is necessary to clamp 16 the voltage from the wall adapter. Whereas 17 other ones that may fall closer to, and be 18 interpreted as, EPSs, the battery can be 19 removed, and the device will operate from the 20 wall adapter alone without the use of the 21 battery. 22 So DOE welcomes your -- welcomes

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110 1 your input on these and any additional 2 criteria it should consider in determining the 3 presence or absence of charge control. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments on these, 5 please? And your name again? 6 MR. GEORGE: Yes. My name is 7 Santhosh George. I have a question regarding 8 the wall adapters -- and I'm sorry, I've 9 forgotten the gentleman's name -- Wayne just

10 mentioned before.

11 We have an external -- the wall 12 adapter. Even though our functionality is -- 13 it's supposed to charge a battery, that's the 14 whole reason why we are packaging it, and -- 15 but a consumer can take it, and may not 16 exactly use it on our product. 17 He can use it on any other product 18 and for example, it is a photo frame. It runs 19 on DC power. As long as the rating of the 20 power -- of the wall adapter is exactly the 21 same, he can plug it in and he can use it for 22 an entirely different product, even though we

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111 1 had not packaged it for that. 2 So this comes into the reality of 3 when we are manufacturing we have a plethora 4 of products on our plate, and we buy power 5 adapters from one manufacturer, from a 6 different supplier, so that we can use it for 7 different products. So now we have to make 8 the distinction, "Hey, listen, this is a 9 battery charger. The wall adapter has to be 10 -- fall under these conditions. Now, since it 11 is not a battery charger, this wall adapter

12 has to fall under different conditions.” 13 And end result is the reality is the 14 person can -- and in order to make it simple, 15 people have made the plugs, as universal as 16 possible, for example, the USB, you can charge 17 anything with a USB, even though you can also 18 charge a digital camera, you can charge an 19 iPod, you can charge anything else that uses 20 USB power. So as long as the plug is 21 universal, they can use it for any single 22 product.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112 1 So my question is: why don't we 2 have wall adapters as a separate entity rather 3 than being a subset or trying to supersede any 4 of the other products? Why can't it be one 5 regulation for wall adapters? 6 Be it used for charging batteries, 7 be it used for actually running the product, I 8 mean, for the functioning of the product. 9 “Wall adapters” as one certain condition, so 10 it's much simpler and less confusing, because 11 right now we have to choose, you know, oh, “I 12 have this, but here he can use it with 13 something else.” Well, what happens then? 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 15 Do you wish to follow on before I 16 go to Larry? 17 MR. MALINOWSKI: I guess maybe one 18 follow-on question would be -- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Matt, then. Thank 20 you. Matt, please. 21 MR. MALINOWSKI: -- is, how would 22 that differ from -- you just mentioned that

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113 1 these wall adapters can be used for both 2 powering -- charging the batteries in a 3 camera, but also for powering a photo frame. 4 Would it be possible to -- because 5 of this photo frame application, would it be 6 possible to take these wall adapters and move 7 them firmly into the EPS category? Would 8 there be anything that would prevent it from 9 meeting the same standards as comparable EPSs?

10 MR. GEORGE: I am not sure if I am 11 going to answer you correctly. Pardon me. 12 But from what I understand, if you have a wall 13 adapter for battery chargers, as far as 14 efficiency level goes, you have a certain bit 15 of relaxation, but it is much more stringent 16 when it comes down to other products.

17 So that is where the distinction 18 comes. It obviously comes down in purchasing 19 or -- it's all pricing, whether with all of 20 the technologies out there we have the right

21 intention. But when it comes down to the 22 market, when it comes down to a consumer, we

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114 1 all look for pricing. 2 And for us manufacturers, is the 3 technology out there with the people who can 4 actually -- we are actually buying it from 5 different suppliers. And for us to go there 6 and ask them, "Hey listen, we need, as per 7 what the Department of Energy requires," they 8 are totally baffled. So they just have -- 9 they say, "Listen, we sell the same power 10 adapter for a guy who wants to run anything. 11 Anything that takes this output is what we are 12 going to do it." 13 So it doesn't have an energy 14 efficiency, because there is a sort of battery 15 charger, and here, look at the ruling, what 16 the Congress passed. You don't need to have 17 energy efficiency for -- so it's good for you. 18 But at the same time, the consumer 19 -- big retailer says, "Hey, listen, they can 20 take this, and they can plug it onto an 21 entirely different product, and it does need 22 regulation."

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115 1 So finally it comes down to people 2 in corporate offices who are making 3 interpretations of what the law is. And that 4 is leading to a lot of interpretation for us 5 manufacturers, especially in this economy, 6 should I spend the extra dollars in trying to 7 get something that is universal, or should I 8 get something for what my actual product

9 needs? 10 The interpretation of the law -- I 11 guess that is what I am looking for, and that

12 is the reason I am here for. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very

14 much. 15 Larry, is this -- your comment in

16 this stream?

17 MR. ALBERT: Yes. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, and then 19 I'm going to Rick.

20 MR. ALBERT: It's a follow-on to 21 the comment that was just made.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116 1 MR. ALBERT: The kinds of product 2 -- the kinds of interchangeability that have 3 just been described with respect to wall 4 adapters is consistent with our understanding

5 of what Class A EPSs were intended to 6 describe. That is, a power source with a 7 fixed output voltage rating and a maximum 8 output current rating that could be used for a 9 number of different applications providing the 10 ratings dealt with in the envelope of the 11 required source. 12 With respect to the wall adapters 13 that we use for battery charging applications, 14 in those cases those wall adapters possess a 15 specific voltage-current characteristic that 16 is optimized for that application. It is not 17 interchangeable. 18 And we go through as much effort 19 as we can to try to avoid the scenario that 20 was just described where folks could take a 21 wall adapter and put it on one thing and put 22 it onto -- take it from one application and

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1171 put it on something else, by either hard2 wiring the wall adapter to the cradle to, you 3 know, minimize the likelihood of 4 interchangeability or using customized 5 cradles, as have been described, that have 6 proprietary interfaces to either the end 7 product or the battery itself. 8 But that notion with respect to 9 wall adapters used for motor-operated 10 appliances or used specifically for battery 11 charging is inconsistent with what we do in 12 our industry. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Rick, are 14 you on this same stream?

15 MR. HABBEN: Yes. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 17 MR. HABBEN: Well, actually, my 18 comment is regarding this slide that is up 19 there now with the charge control 20 functionality. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Then, let me just 22 have you hold for a second.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118 1 Gary, go ahead.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: I would like to 3 respond to the comments -- Gary Fernstrom -- 4 from the energy efficiency advocate point of

5 view. 6 I think the energy efficiency 7 advocates would be delighted if all wall 8 adapters, external power supplies, were 9 efficient, and all battery chargers were 10 efficient, too. However, by having two 11 efficiency requirements that compound, it 12 limits the manufacturer's flexibility to do 13 tradeoffs between the wall adapter and the 14 charge control circuitry, and find the most 15 economic option for realizing the energy 16 efficiency gain that wants to be achieved.

17 So the tradeoff is between 18 simplicity and maximum economy for all 19 applications. And I think that is kind of a 20 generalized reason why the approach that is 21 being suggested here makes sense from some 22 industry's point of view.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Rick. 2 MR. HABBEN: So my comment is 3 regarding this slide. These four points 4 regarding the short circuit operation, voltage 5 regulation, no load voltage, and no battery 6 operation, are very general statements. 7 And so I guess myself as a 8 manufacturer, you know, when it gets into 9 these different approaches and determining 10 whether or not you fall into the charge 11 control functions, you know, I am going to 12 need something I think a little bit more 13 defined, clear, than these particular 14 statements to determine, you know, my charge

15 control function in there. 16 And so I was just wondering: is 17 that being worked out? Or is that part of 18 today's process? Or where do we go from here?

19 MR. MALINOWSKI: Sure. I can 20 speak to that. DOE has already begun testing 21 various wall adapters to try to determine 22 where they stack up on these four criteria.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120 1 And what -- we will present these during the 2 course of the preliminary analysis.

3 What we would like -- what DOE

4 would like from stakeholders is both comments 5 on whether these are the correct paths to 6 follow -- what sort of testing may be used to 7 ascertain whether wall adapters have charge

8 control under each of these criteria -- as 9 well as any test data that manufacturers or

10 advocates have conducted on these devices to 11 compare those to DOE's own tests. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought Rick was 13 asking if you had more specifics surrounding 14 these labels, these criteria. Do you have

15 them? 16 MR. MALINOWSKI: At present -- 17 well, I will go to the next slide, just to 18 give an example. But I do not have -- do not 19 have a full data set that I can present today. 20 Okay. So if there are no further 21 comments, I will move on to just a quick 22 example of the sort of load curves that we

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121 1 were talking about. Paul already showed 2 several of them as well. And as you can see 3 here, we have two devices. One is a generic 4 wall adapter of the kind that was just 5 discussed. The other is a wall adapter 6 intended for cellular telephone. Both are

7 switched-mode units. 8 And you can see on this plot how 9 the output voltage varies with output current 10 from the no load condition all the way up to 11 full load in the case of the generic wall 12 adapter. You can see that the response of the 13 cellular wall adapter is very particular, 14 presumably to protect the battery from

15 overcurrent. 16 And so as I mentioned just now, 17 the DOE would welcome any comments from 18 stakeholders on this additional charge control 19 functionality in wall adapters, as well as the 20 way that this charge control may impede their 21 ability to meet the same standards as compared 22 with the wall adapters for other applications,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122 1 i.e., EPSs.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael Vladimer.

3 MR. VLADIMER: This is Michael 4 Vladimer from Navigant Consulting. Just to 5 follow up on Rick's question, and I think Matt 6 is speaking towards this. But the reason that 7 those four criteria were up there, the idea is 8 if -- in previous interviews with 9 manufacturers, they have said charge control 10 limits the efficiency or could increase the 11 energy consumption of certain wall adapters.

12 And so if -- so the idea with 13 those four criteria is that DOE is going to 14 try to identify where there is a difference in 15 energy consumption based on that additional 16 functionality. 17 So in listing those, the goal is 18 not to say that a -- that a charge control 19 will show up by doing that necessarily, but it

20 is these are the four areas that DOE is 21 thinking of looking into at the moment to go

22 after what manufacturers have said.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123 1 So for instance, your shavers 2 require additional circuitry, consume 3 additional power to -- so that they can charge 4 the battery, and you don't believe that they

5 should be held to the same standard as an 6 actual power supply without that additional 7 functionality, please let DOE know whether or 8 not you think those four tests will work to 9 identify that additional functionality, and we

10 will work to make a line that we can divide

11 across.

12 And if there are some other tests 13 that you can think of, by all means please let

14 us know.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that

16 clarification. That's useful. 17 Okay. Other -- so you see the 18 specific comment box listed, Item 10, on 19 slide 52. Any additional comments? The 20 Department is asking specifically for comment

21 on this. 22 (No response.)

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124 1 Okay. So then, we are going to 2 keep moving on. Yes, Wayne, please. 3 MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris. Just 4 to -- I guess the other one that comes to mind 5 in this is induction charging, where a 6 manufacturer uses inductive charging in order 7 to protect the product in use and around 8 water, where no metal-to-metal contacts can be

9 used to avoid either bacterial contamination 10 or to avoid an arcing situation or corrosion

11 situation. 12 And so when it says "additional 13 functionality provided by some wall adapters 14 for battery chargers that impede their ability 15 to meet the same standards," to me that brings 16 to mind certainly the inductive charge, where 17 you are required essentially to charge through 18 either a high frequency or through something 19 else that may be less efficient when you -- if 20 you look at a straight efficiency definition. 21 I'm not sure that we're there yet, but that 22 certainly is one consideration.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125 1 So thanks. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: So Wayne, I was 3 unclear what you were suggesting the 4 Department do. 5 MR. MORRIS: Well, it just says,

6 "DOE welcomes comments on additional 7 functionality."

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Add that one.

9 MR. MORRIS: Add that one. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 11 Thank you.

12 Michael? Go ahead.

13 MR. VLADIMER: Michael Vladimer.

14 Just to address that. So the EPS definition 15 indicates that the power supply has to have an 16 AC output or DC -- lower voltage DC output? 17 So with the charged product, that would pretty 18 clearly just be a battery charger I believe, 19 because it doesn't have an electrical output. 20 But the issue that you are raising 21 with inductive coupling, I think that that's 22 more of a product class issue, which we will

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126 1 get into in the afternoon, specific to battery 2 chargers and not necessarily along the wall 3 adapter or battery charging system divide. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So

5 additional comments before we move on? 6 (No response.) 7 Okay. We will move on. I would 8 like to also -- I would like to note, I think 9 these graphics are great. I think -- I really 10 do. Whoever did them, I think they are really 11 quite useful. They really -- and I like the 12 colors, too. 13 (Laughter.) 14 So proceed. Go ahead. 15 MR. MALINOWSKI: Very good. Well, 16 let me get back to this graphic here. And 17 just the two questions that need to be asked 18 when deciding where to categorize -- how to 19 categorize wall adapters for battery charging 20 applications.

21 The first one is: should a wall 22 adapter that powers a battery charging system

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127 1 be considered an EPS? And should a wall 2 adapter that powers a battery charging system 3 be considered part of the BC, and therefore, 4 subject to BC standards? 5 And charge control is the way that 6 DOE is proposing to answer those two 7 questions. And taking charge control into 8 consideration, one can answer the first 9 question on the left of this table, "Should 10 the wall adapter be considered an EPS?" You 11 can answer either always, not if charge 12 control is present, or never: a wall adapter

13 is never considered an EPS. 14 To answer the second question, 15 "Should a wall adapter be considered part of 16 the BC?" the two possible answers are always 17 and only if charge control is present.

18 And at the intersection of these 19 answers to these two questions DOE has come up 20 with four possible approaches. These are 21 summarized in the framework document. As you 22 may remember, Approach A is DOE's preferred

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128 1 approach. I will go over that one, as well as 2 the remaining four. However, for more detail, 3 I invite you all to take a look at Section 4 3.2.3 of the framework document, which is

5 available online. 6 And I will begin with a discussion 7 of Approach A. What you see here on the left 8 is an illustration of three potential 9 configurations of a battery charging system 10 powered by a wall adapter. This is the 11 connection to mains, AC mains, followed by the 12 wall adapter and any further enclosures, such 13 as the consumer product, any cradles, charging 14 bases, etcetera. 15 And I would like you to note that 16 symbols for AC/DC conversion, which in all 17 cases is present in the wall adapter, and the 18 charge control, which can either be in the 19 subsequent enclosures of the battery charger, 20 as in the first configuration, distributed 21 between the wall adapter and the subsequent 22 enclosures, or wholly inside the wall adapter.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129 1 And finally, let me just point out 2 the coloring. The shading in the background

3 shows whether DOE would consider those 4 enclosures to be subject to -- and BC standard 5 is the yellow, EPS is the solid blue, and this 6 dashed -- I'm not sure how well that comes up

7 in the back of the room -- would mean that it 8 would be subject to both BC and EPS standards, 9 because the two standards would overlap in

10 that case. 11 So with that as an introduction, 12 let me go into Approach A. 13 Under Approach A, battery chargers 14 would include all wall adapters, so every wall 15 adapter for a battery charging system would be

16 included within the BC standard. Wall 17 adapters without charge control would also be 18 considered EPSs, and therefore, subject to the 19 EISA EPS standard if they are Class A, or any 20 potential future EPS standards.

21 What this means is that these wall 22 adapters without charge control would be

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130 1 subject to both BC and EPS standards. 2 Finally, wall adapters with charge 3 control, such as the ones in the bottom two 4 configurations, would not be considered EPSs, 5 and would not be subject -- would not be

6 either Class A nor non-Class A EPSs. 7 Any questions on this Approach A?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul? 9 DR. BENDT: There actually is a 10 fourth possibility, and that is we have tested 11 a number of products that have a wall adapter, 12 but do not have any charge control circuitry 13 either in the wall adapter or the product, and 14 we would urge that these be considered as part 15 of that first category, that because there is 16 no charge control circuitry in the wall 17 adapter the wall adapter is still treated as

18 an EPS. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. REEVES: Yes. Ari. Can I ask 21 a question of you, then, Paul? In that case, 22 would that wall adapter -- so you said the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131 1 wall adapter should be considered an EPS. 2 Should it also be considered part of the 3 battery charging system like the first case

4 listed there?

5 DR. BENDT: Yes. 6 MR. REEVES: Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 8 Additional questions on Approach A? 9 (No response.) 10 Okay. Let's go on. 11 MR. MALINOWSKI: Okay. So let me 12 just go into a little more detail on Approach 13 A. I just list some of the advantages of this 14 approach, which have made this the preferred 15 DOE approach. First, it harmonizes with 16 previous applications -- interpretations of 17 what is an EPS, such as those of Energy Star

18 or CEC.

19 And it -- because it includes wall 20 adapters in the battery charger, it is 21 consistent with the way these products are 22 used, such that the consumer will use a wall

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132 1 adapter to power their battery charger. And 2 the regulation, based on this approach, would 3 be consistent with the way consumers use them. 4 One disadvantage of this approach 5 is that two standards, overlapping standards, 6 on wall adapters without charge control may 7 increase the compliance burden for 8 manufacturers, as they would have to qualify 9 one component under two possible standards. 10 DOE will be asking for further

11 comments on that at the end of -- after we do 12 a full run-down of all the approaches. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Larry? 14 MR. ALBERT: Yes, thanks. 15 Matt, have you given any thought 16 as to how you would address this in terms of 17 test procedures? Would you try to -- I mean, 18 you have some existing test procedures at your 19 disposal. 20 MR. MALINOWSKI: I will go into 21 test procedures following the discussion of 22 the approaches. But if you wouldn't mind

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133 1 keeping that question in mind, and if I don't 2 answer it, then we can bring it back up, if 3 that's okay. 4 MR. ALBERT: Sure. Thank you.

5 MR. MALINOWSKI: I'll move on to 6 Approach B next. I have the same illustration 7 of the three different product configurations. 8 However, you will notice that all we have is 9 the solid yellow shading, which indicates that 10 all of the components presented would be 11 considered part of the BC, or subject to a BC 12 standard. And under Approach B, no wall 13 adapter that powers the battery charging 14 system would be considered an EPS. 15 So again, BCs include all wall 16 adapters, and wall adapters for battery 17 charging products are not EPSs under Approach

18 B. 19 Disadvantages of this approach are 20 that there is only one standard for a product, 21 namely that all battery chargers would only -- 22 all components of battery chargers would only

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134 1 need to comply with the battery charging 2 standards. However, it is inconsistent with

3 EISA definition of Class A EPSs and does not 4 harmonize with previous interpretations of

5 what is or is not an EPS. 6 For example under Approach B, wall 7 adapters for laptop computers or cellular 8 telephones would not be considered EPSs, and 9 therefore, not subject to current or present 10 -- present or future EPS standards. 11 Next, I will move into Approach C. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, let's pause. 13 Wayne? 14 MR. MORRIS: Let's not get off of 15 that one where it says "inconsistent with 16 EISA" just yet. Can you or somebody explain

17 to me where the rub is? 18 MR. PETROLATI: Wayne, Vic 19 Petrolati, Department of Energy. Let me 20 reiterate that the inconsistency occurs

21 because there would be some EPSs that are -- 22 would be considered under this approach -- be

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135 1 excluded that weren't excluded under the 2 specific language in EISA. 3 And we do not have the authority, 4 because the legislation was established by 5 Congress. It wasn't a DOE regulation, so we 6 cannot grant exclusions that were not granted

7 in the law. 8 MR. MORRIS: And those, for 9 example, would be?

10 MR. PETROLATI: The ones that have

11 been excluded? 12 MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris. Did 13 you say some EPSs would be considered excluded

14 that were not excluded under EISA? 15 MR. PETROLATI: Right. 16 MR. MORRIS: Could you give me 17 some examples of those that would be excluded 18 under Approach B that would not be excluded, 19 or you don't feel are excluded under EISA?

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Matt?

21 MR. MALINOWSKI: Sure. I have the 22 legislation in front of me, and looking at the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136 1 definition of Class A exclusions, “The term 2 Class A external power supply does not include 3 any device that requires FDA listing and 4 approval as a medical device, powers the 5 charger with an actual battery pack, or 6 charges the battery of a product.” It is

7 those exclusions that we went over earlier in

8 this session. 9 And so this would be, in effect, 10 by excluding wall adapters for battery 11 charging systems such as laptop computers,

12 which are neither -- have neither detachable 13 battery packs or are -- nor are motor 14 operated, DOE would in effect be adding to 15 this list of exclusions in the legislation. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That was a 17 good explanation. 18 Larry, go ahead. 19 MR. ALBERT: Or the other way of 20 looking at it might be that you can't exclude 21 something that is already identified as a 22 Class A EPS, right?

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137 1 MR. MALINOWSKI: Right. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay.

3 MR. MALINOWSKI: So without -- if 4 there are no further questions, I will talk 5 briefly about Approach C. 6 Similar to Approach A, but you 7 will notice that wall adapters without charge 8 control are shaded solid blue, indicating that 9 they are only subject to EPS standards -- 10 would only be subject to EPS standards and not 11 potential BC standards.

12 So BCs would include all wall 13 adapters with charge control. However, wall 14 adapters without charge control would only be 15 considered EPSs. The advantages of this 16 approach are that it harmonizes with previous 17 interpretations of what an EPS is. However, 18 the disadvantage is that two standards on 19 different parts of the battery charging system 20 could, again, increase the compliance burden. 21 And finally, I will talk briefly 22 about Approach D. Under this approach, BCs --

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138 1 the BC standard would include all wall 2 adapters. However, all wall adapters would 3 also be considered EPSs, regardless of the 4 presence of charge control, such that two 5 standards would apply -- could apply to all 6 EPSs that power -- to all wall adapters that 7 power battery charging systems, namely an EPS

8 standard and the BC standard. 9 And this approach has the 10 advantage of simplifying identification of 11 EPSs. Charge control is no longer an issue. 12 All wall adapters are considered EPSs. 13 However, the disadvantage is that, again,

14 there would be two standards on these -- could 15 be two standards on these wall adapters, which 16 could increase the compliance burden. And 17 furthermore, there may be complications with 18 testing wall adapters that perform charge

19 control as EPSs. 20 Namely, as we saw earlier, some of 21 these wall adapters may not be able to put out 22 100 percent of their nameplate output current,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139 1 which would affect how they perform under the 2 EPS test procedure. 3 So that was a quick rundown of the 4 four approaches. Again, I invite you to 5 review the framework document, and here is a 6 couple issues that DOE seeks comment on -- 7 anything on the four approaches, of course, 8 but specifically on estimates of compliance 9 burdens under the four approaches for current 10 EISA EPS standards, as well as potential

11 future EPS or BC standards. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw Wayne first. 13 MR. MORRIS: Thanks. Wayne 14 Morris. But let me go back to slide 63, if I 15 could for a second, just to make sure that I 16 understand something. It says it may cause 17 complications with testing wall adapters with 18 charge control as an EPS. And then, I believe 19 you made mention of the fact that there might

20 be some EPSs that wouldn't -- if tested 21 according to the EPS requirement, might not 22 give their output nameplate rating.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140 1 But couldn't that be set up as a 2 criteria that if you had a device that did not 3 have an output equal to its nameplate rating,

4 then it would not be viewed under this 5 circumstance, and it would be viewed as an 6 EPS? I mean, couldn't you just reverse that,

7 set that as a criteria? 8 MR. MALINOWSKI: So you would 9 recommend adding that as a criterion to the 10 list of four ways to distinguish charge 11 control, for example? 12 MR. MORRIS: Yes, I think so. I'm 13 just asking if it's possible to do that.

14 MR. MALINOWSKI: I think it would 15 be possible. One issue that I can think of is 16 that there may be a gray area. So we had -- I 17 showed earlier the slide of the sloping line.

18 Let me click back to this. And this wall 19 adapter does not reach 100 percent of its 20 nameplate output current. 21 However, it is possible to see a 22 gray area in between these two, where the line

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141 1 reaches 100 percent, but is also sloping. So 2 I wonder if that criterion that you just 3 proposed, maybe it wouldn't restrict enough 4 products. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Larry?

6 MR. ALBERT: What I am concerned 7 about here is that there might be a subtle 8 other element to this, is that in looking at 9 those wall adapters that qualify as EPSs, in 10 Approach C, you are left, then, with the 11 remaining portion of the battery charger. Is 12 it your understanding that that battery 13 charger would have to be evaluated -- that 14 remaining section of the battery charger would 15 also have to be evaluated for its energy 16 efficiency?

17 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes. It would 18 then be evaluated, tested under the BC test 19 procedure, powered not by its wall adapter but 20 by a DC source perhaps, or by the wall 21 adapter. However, the input measurement would 22 be conducted at this point. It would

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142 1 potentially have to be in a separate product

2 class from the other ones as a result. 3 MR. ALBERT: All right. Thank 4 you.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me see. Rick? 6 MR. HABBEN: So two questions. 7 Following up on Larry, currently there would 8 be no test procedure out there that would 9 enable you guys to do that in Approach C 10 without charge control.

11 MR. MALINOWSKI: I believe -- and 12 maybe the gentleman here could comment on this 13 -- but I believe that the CEC test procedure 14 makes an allowance for DC power chargers and 15 specifies what the source is for powering 16 them. So that might serve as a basis for a 17 new test procedure.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll let Paul

19 comment. Yes.

20 DR. BENDT: Paul Bendt. That is 21 correct. The test procedure in California 22 allows -- or accommodates chargers that are

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143 1 either AC powered or DC powered, and does 2 provide specific requirements of power source 3 regulation, how close the voltage has to be, 4 what the voltage regulation has to be, ripple, 5 harmonic distortion, and so on, for both AC 6 and DC powered chargers. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 8 Go ahead, Rick. 9 MR. HABBEN: Then, the second 10 question is, going back to Approach B, my 11 question is: if the definition is -- or part 12 of the definition for B, if you classified the 13 EPSs for this approach as the non-Class A 14 EPSs, would that then meet the requirements of

15 the law? Because then the Class A would still 16 be as they are today.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael?

18 MR. VLADIMER: Michael Vladimer. 19 I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the 20 question. Can you clarify a little? 21 MR. HABBEN: So currently in the 22 Class -- or in Approach B --

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144 1 MR. VLADIMER: Okay. 2 MR. HABBEN: -- you said that it 3 did not meet the EISA requirements, right?

4 Because there would be exclusions due to Class 5 A appliances or Class A EPSs would be 6 excluded. So what I'm saying is, for this 7 approach, Approach B, it would only apply -- 8 it would only be for non-Class A EPSs. 9 MR. PETROLATI: So you're saying 10 the approach could become legal if it was used

11 -- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Vic, you've got to 13 turn the microphone on. 14 MR. PETROLATI: I'm sorry. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Please say it 16 again, Vic.

17 MR. PETROLATI: Yes. Pardon me. 18 Rick, my understanding is the question is: 19 for non-Class A EPSs, this approach could be 20 considered legal in your opinion.

21 MR. HABBEN: That's what I'm 22 asking.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145 1 MR. PETROLATI: Yes. 2 MR. REEVES: Rick, this is Ari 3 Reeves with D&R. I think you are describing 4 Approach A. 5 MR. HABBEN: No. Approach B.

6 MR. REEVES: But it sounds like 7 what you just said is Approach A, where -- 8 MR. HABBEN: Well, the thing is, 9 though, that if you use Approach B, then none 10 of the EPSs would be subject to a dual 11 requirement. 12 MR. PETROLATI: Rick, we will have 13 to take that under advisement from a legal 14 standpoint. You may have a point; we'll have 15 to consider it. We can't answer it today. 16 MR. HABBEN: Okay.

17 MR. PETROLATI: Yes.

18 MR. VLADIMER: This is Michael 19 Vladimer. Can I just rephrase what you are 20 saying to see if I got it down? Because I 21 think the idea, if I understand it correctly, 22 is pretty interesting.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146 1 So the issue is Class A versus 2 non-Class A. So to start with, Class A, for 3 instance, you have a laptop right in front of 4 you. Most people would consider the power 5 supply for that laptop an external power 6 supply, subject to EISA standards. But since 7 you are from Wahl Clipper, you are concerned 8 about motor-operated products, because that's 9 what your shavers do. 10 MR. HABBEN: Right.

11 MR. VLADIMER: So the issue is 12 that some of your shaver wall adapters might 13 have charge control, some of them wouldn't. 14 So it sounds like what you are suggesting is 15 for all shavers, because all of those shavers 16 are motor-operated products, regardless of how 17 -- what is actually in that wall adapter 18 itself, you are suggesting that the Department 19 apply Approach B to wall adapters for all

20 shavers. 21 So what that would mean in the top 22 example is that, Rick, if it has no charge

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147 1 control, don't worry, don't even try to 2 regulate it as an EPS. Just regulate 3 everything with the shaver as a BC.

4 MR. HABBEN: That's correct. 5 MR. VLADIMER: Okay. Got you now.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that

7 restatement. 8 So one question I had, maybe you 9 stated it. You did say on slide 55 that 10 Approach A is DOE's preferred approach. Do 11 you anticipate that DOE will have to choose 12 one among these four? Can you have multiple 13 approaches that are possible to operate? Is 14 that too confusing to -- I didn't know, did 15 you say that and I missed it?

16 MR. PETROLATI: I don't think I've 17 said a word. I've tried to keep as quiet as 18 possible during these discussions. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So just ignore my 20 question, then. 21 (Laughter.)

22 MR. PETROLATI: I think from a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148 1 simplicity standpoint, and to be able to 2 explain it to our stakeholders, we are 3 probably going to decide on one approach. 4 Now, one thing that Matt didn't mention here,

5 and there is a wrinkle for one of the 6 approaches, as to whether or not we would 7 evaluate when an EPS is part of a battery 8 charging system, whether or not we would even 9 evaluate attempting to set more stringent

10 standards for that EPS. 11 You know, Congress established the 12 standards for the EPS, and I think from then 13 on in we might evaluate the entire system 14 strictly as a standard for the battery 15 charging system, without setting more 16 stringent standards for the EPS in the future 17 for EPSs connected to battery chargers. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. PETROLATI: That doesn't come 20 across clearly in these approaches, but we

21 have to take into account a number of 22 different things in terms of how we would

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149 1 apply the standards. And I think Rick has got 2 a point. We need to take a look at something

3 else with the non-Class A’s and whether or not 4 we can fit something in from that standpoint

5 as well.

6 But that would be consistent for 7 the most part with our approach, that we would 8 not set more stringent standards for EPSs that 9 are part of battery charging systems, 10 depending on how we define an EPS of course. 11 MR. MALINOWSKI: And just to 12 follow up on that comment from Vic, even 13 though I didn't touch on this in the slides, 14 that issue is explained in the framework 15 document. So for more background on this 16 possibility, I invite you to take a look

17 there. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you,

19 Matt. 20 Rick, do you have additional -- 21 okay. 22 MR. HABBEN: Not at this point.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Great. 2 So then we are now concluding the 3 scope of analysis segment of this. And I want 4 to keep pressing on, but I want to provide -- 5 before we move on to test procedures, which is 6 near and dear to everybody's heart, we -- I 7 want to provide a final opportunity for 8 comment on scope of analysis. Any additional 9 comments, questions, surrounding that? 10 (No response.) 11 Okay. Then, let's move to test 12 procedures.

13 MR. MALINOWSKI: So next I will 14 move away from these issues of the standards 15 rulemaking, such as scope, etcetera, and take 16 a brief detour through test procedures. As we 17 saw earlier, test procedures is something that 18 is of great concern to many of the 19 stakeholders, so I wanted to provide you all 20 with an opportunity to submit further comments 21 to DOE on the issue of test procedures, as 22 well as to put some potential updates to BC

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151 1 and EPS test procedures, just air those. 2 So I will begin with a summary of 3 DOE's current test procedures for BCs and 4 EPSs, and then continue with these potential 5 updates, which might consist of a review of 6 the standby and off mode, the single voltage 7 EPS test procedure, bringing up the multiple 8 voltage EPS test procedure, and then, finally, 9 the BC active mode test procedure. 10 So DOE currently has test 11 procedures for both BCs and EPSs. The BC test 12 procedure only considers inactive modes, 13 namely maintenance mode and no battery mode, 14 and it is based on the Energy Star battery 15 charger test procedure. 16 The EPS test procedure, which is 17 based on the EPS Energy Star test procedure, 18 covers only single voltage EPSs. Here is a 19 quick review of the current DOE BC test 20 procedure. It begins with a fully discharged 21 battery, which is connected to the charger, 22 and then charged over a period of 24 hours.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152 1 During this time, no data are 2 taken. Following 24 hours the battery is 3 assumed to be fully charged, and it is assumed 4 that the charger is in maintenance mode. And 5 the maintenance mode power is then integrated

6 over 36 hours. 7 Finally, the battery is removed, 8 and then no battery mode power is integrated 9 over 12 hours, returning the maintenance mode 10 energy and the no battery energy. And these 11 two energies are compared to the energy 12 obtained from the battery during a five-hour 13 discharge. 14 Good. Just a quick overview of 15 the EPS, current EPS test procedure. Only 16 measures single voltage EPSs, measures them in 17 active mode and no load mode. The average 18 efficiency is the active mode metric, and it 19 is an average of the efficiencies measured at 20 25, 50, 75, and 100 percent of full -- of 21 nameplate output current. 22 No load power is measured at zero

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153 1 percent of nameplate output current or -- 2 which means when the wall adapter -- when the

3 EPS is disconnected from its load. 4 Finally, as a result of a 5 rulemaking in 2008, DOE adopted test 6 procedures for both standby and off mode for 7 both BCs and EPSs, and I will just gloss over 8 these briefly. Both modes occur when the 9 device is connected to the power source, but 10 is disconnected from its battery or load. And 11 standby mode means when any on-off switches,12 if present, are on. Off mode is when any on13 off switches are set to off. Off mode does 14 not apply when the device does not have on-off

15 switches. 16 And here is a quick summary of all 17 of these test procedures as they appear in the 18 Code of Federal Regulations. 19 As you can see, here are the class 20 -- here are the single voltage EPS test 21 procedures for active mode, standby mode, and 22 off mode. Here is the standby mode and off

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154 1 mode test procedures for battery chargers, as 2 well as the inactive mode test procedure. And 3 here in the middle in lighter green is the 4 multiple voltage test procedure which was 5 proposed in 2008, but has not yet been

6 finalized. 7 Any questions on the current test 8 procedures? 9 (No response.)

10 Good. And next I will talk about 11 the updates to these test procedures. Like I 12 mentioned, DOE may update its BC and EPS test 13 procedures. Here is a potential timeline. 14 The update process will take through 2009 and 15 conclude -- likely conclude in the fourth 16 quarter of 2010. 17 The major milestones for this 18 rulemaking would fall around -- before the 19 milestones for the standards rulemaking, such 20 that the active mode test procedure final rule 21 would likely fall before the standards 22 proposed rule in the fourth quarter of 2010.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155 1 And just one thing I would like to 2 stress is even though I have been calling this 3 the active mode test procedure final -- the 4 active mode test procedure, it might also 5 include additional updates to the other test 6 procedures. So just for -- to be clear on 7 that. And I will go through each of these in

8 turn. 9 I will begin with a review of the 10 standby and off mode test procedures. Based 11 on stakeholder comments received in 2008, DOE 12 is considering shortening the one hour 13 measurement period for standby mode and off 14 modes, and here is a potential shortened 15 testing period, which would involve a 30- 16 minute warmup to achieve thermal stability in 17 the battery charger or external power supply, 18 followed by a 10-minute measurement. 19 And this would hopefully decrease 20 the testing burden. DOE at this point doesn't 21 envision any other changes to the standby and 22 off mode test procedure; however, it invites

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156 1 stakeholder comments on those and specifically 2 this shortened testing period. 3 Next, review of the single voltage 4 EPS test procedure. DOE is considering 5 amending the single voltage test procedure to 6 accommodate testing of USB-compliant wall 7 adapters. This is something that I think the 8 stakeholder from Motorola raised. Many 9 cellular telephones are moving to a USB

10 interface. 11 Here is a picture of a USB 12 connector, which besides having power and 13 ground also has data lines. Currently, the 14 single voltage test procedure requires that 15 all data lines be disconnected during the 16 test. However, DOE is concerned that 17 disconnecting the data lines may impact the 18 maximum current supplied by the wall adapter,

19 because it needs to communicate with the load 20 -- may need to communicate with the load.

21 So this is an issue that we have 22 -- DOE has several questions about, so invites

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157 1 stakeholder comments on USB wall adapters. 2 Next, I will move on to the 3 multiple voltage EPS test procedure. In 2008, 4 DOE proposed a test procedure for multiple 5 voltages -- for multiple voltage EPSs, which 6 was based on the single voltage EPS test 7 procedure, such that it required the averaging 8 of efficiencies measured at 25, 50, 75, and 9 100 percent of full load. 10 However, during a meeting 11 stakeholders mentioned that this may not be 12 representative of the loads connected to these 13 multiple voltage power supplies. Therefore, 14 DOE is considering measuring efficiency of 15 these power supplies at 25, 50, 75, and 100, 16 without averaging the results. 17 The test procedure would output 18 these four separate active mode metrics, in 19 addition to no load power, and then the20 results could be weighted at the standard21 setting phase to best represent typical use.

22 Here is an illustration of what

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158 1 was proposed in 2008: four active mode tests, 2 however, one active mode metric. And this is 3 a potential change to that proposal: four

4 active mode tests and individual -- four

5 individual metrics. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Just a comment on 8 this. I think this procedure is highly 9 dependent on how you define "typical use." So 10 I don't know whether typical use would be wall 11 devices actually charging, or whether the 12 device is typically used when it is plugged in 13 but not charging. 14 So if this approach is pursued, 15 careful thought needs to be given to what we 16 mean by "typical use."

17 MR. MALINOWSKI: Sure. So let me 18 move over to the next slide. Maybe that might

19 answer some of those concerns. 20 The typical use for these multiple 21 voltage power supplies is the Microsoft Xbox.

22 It is based on market share. And one other

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159 1 possibility is using the usage profiles of the 2 Xbox to select the loading points and the 3 weights for this test procedure. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Just one 5 more comment. This may be a good indication 6 for the Xbox, but I would suggest that for 7 most products on the market we don't know 8 their typical use. So if we were to go in the 9 direction of needing to establish typical use, 10 that would be the percentage of time that 11 these products are in different modes of 12 operation. The data is scarce to come to a 13 realistic and creditable understanding of

14 that. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Gary.

16 MR. MALINOWSKI: I will now

17 continue that. 18 Good. So as Gary says, for many 19 products the data is scarce. This is a usage 20 profile that DOE has assembled from a number 21 of sources. As you can see, the Xbox is 22 usually turned off for the majority of its

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160 1 time, at which point the power supply outputs 2 two percent of its nameplate output. 3 The remainder of the time is spent 4 either idle or while playing a game or DVD, in 5 which case around 57 to 70 percent of 6 nameplate output. Potential metric of the 7 efficiency of a multiple voltage external 8 power supply, which is, again, predominantly 9 used with these products, might be something

10 like this. 11 However, DOE welcomes comments 12 from all stakeholders on this proposal or any 13 alternate methods of developing a 14 representative metric for multiple voltage EPS 15 efficiency.

16 Good. So next I would like to 17 move into the main topic of this section, 18 which is the battery charger active mode test 19 procedure. DOE is aware of the test 20 procedure adopted recently by California, and 21 it is considering incorporating some aspects 22 of that test procedure into its existing

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161 1 battery charger test procedure. 2 However, DOE is also considering 3 modifying portions of the test procedure prior 4 to incorporation to measure, first, BC output 5 energy directly, incorporate usage profiles 6 into the test procedure, reduce the testing 7 time, and to better address depths of 8 discharge.

9 And I have called out these four 10 items in the presentation, just to focus your 11 attention. However, DOE would welcome 12 comments from stakeholders on all aspects of 13 an active mode battery charger test procedure. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. 15 So I just have one quick comment on this. I 16 think it would be extremely difficult to 17 incorporate usage profiles, the details of 18 which we don't have very well understood. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 20 MR. MALINOWSKI: I will begin with 21 the first item -- directly measuring charger 22 output energy rather than battery energy.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162 1 Charger energy consumption is usually 2 expressed in terms of the input energy and the 3 output energy. However, the output energy 4 from the charger can be measured in two 5 different ways.

6 One can either -- such that when 7 calculating the energy consumed, one can 8 either compare the input energy into the 9 charger to the battery output energy or the 10 energy recovered from the battery following a 11 charge. Alternatively, one can compare the 12 input energy into the charger to the energy 13 output from the charger and into the battery. 14 So just to go over these graphics 15 here, this graphic represents the charger and 16 all its components up to the batteries. This 17 includes any wall adapters, cradles, what have 18 you. And then, you can either measure -- 19 charge the battery and then measure the energy 20 obtained from the battery during discharge or 21 one can measure the energy flowing from the 22 charger to the battery during charge.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom 2 again. It seems to me that unless we are 3 measuring the output from the battery, we 4 really don't have a very realistic 5 understanding of the efficiency of the system. 6 It is vitally important that we compare the 7 input to the charger to the output from the 8 battery. 9 MR. MALINOWSKI: So going into the 10 next slide, that is, indeed, one of the 11 advantages of measuring the battery charger -- 12 the battery output energy as opposed to the 13 charger output energy. It is more 14 representative of the total losses experienced 15 by a user of the system. It is also, in many 16 cases, easier to measure the energy from the 17 battery than trying to insert a meter between 18 the charger and the battery. 19 However, one of the main 20 disadvantages of this approach is that there 21 is more measurement uncertainty because of 22 variations in the battery. And this decreases

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164 1 the repeatability and the accuracy of the test 2 procedure. 3 Furthermore, a longer testing time 4 is required when measuring the battery output 5 energy, because the battery needs to be, then, 6 discharged for five hours at least. 7 And the pros and cons are reversed 8 with the other method, which would be 9 measuring the charger output energy. One of 10 the big disadvantages is that it could be 11 complicated to gain access to the output of12 the charger, especially in some space13 constrained applications, for example cellular 14 telephones. 15 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom 16 again. So my comment would be that we can 17 have an easier, more accurate, methodology 18 that isn't really realistic or representative 19 of how things work in the real world. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Any other 21 comments? Yes. Larry first. 22 MR. ALBERT: During the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165 1 development of the Energy Star approach to 2 addressing energy efficiency of battery 3 chargers, I know this question came up. And I 4 think a lot of the motivation for why it is 5 done that way, the motivations were two-fold.

6 One was to have a method that 7 didn't require access to the output terminals 8 of the battery charger during the measurement 9 as a practical consideration. And because in

10 some of these cases the interaction between 11 the battery pack and -- particularly in 12 detachable battery cases -- and the charger 13 can be quite complicated, it may be difficult 14 to gain access to simulate the battery 15 appropriately with using external control 16 equipment. 17 In addition, the battery charging 18 profile might not consist of a constant 19 output, or, rather, discharge -- or charge 20 current into the battery. And so without 21 actually running the test cycle through an 22 entire battery charge cycle, and so on, you

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166 1 may be missing important elements of what 2 happens during the charging cycle if you are 3 going after active mode.

4 The other element I think was is 5 that the reason for discharging the battery 6 and determining the watt hours in the battery 7 was also to provide an independent variable to 8 the assessment of battery charging efficiency 9 as a function of what its end use application

10 was. 11 And the larger the battery was, 12 then presumably the -- that would have an 13 effect upon, you know, what -- how you would 14 assess the efficiency of the system. And that 15 is reflected in that case by the efficiency 16 metric that is used there by dividing the 17 battery capacity into the energy consumed 18 during the test cycle in the Energy Star 19 approach. 20 Moving to active mode approaches, 21 you know, there is certainly still merit to 22 following this approach. I think your comment

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167 1 is correct, though, that if you start looking 2 at sort of gauge R&R of this, you get into 3 some issues with respect to the battery having 4 more of an influence upon the end result. 5 It's possible that some of that may be 6 addressed through some subsequent mathematics 7 incorporating the standards-making process. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

9 MR. ALBERT: Sure.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul? 11 DR. BENDT: I guess I would like 12 to add another pro to using the battery output 13 energy, and that is that manufacturers also 14 have a lot of choices in the battery they 15 choose to supply. And in most of these 16 products the batteries are sold as a part of 17 the product itself. 18 A manufacturer might find it more 19 cost effective to include a good chemistry 20 battery, so that there are fewer -- so that 21 there is less loss to the battery. And if you 22 measure the battery output and kind of look at

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168 1 the whole system, the manufacturers can then 2 trade off whether they are putting their money 3 into better chemistry in the batteries to 4 improve efficiency, or putting their money 5 into better electronics in the chargers. And 6 that essentially gives them more options for 7 how to achieve the required efficiency. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 9 Yes, Michael.

10 MR. VLADIMER: Michael Vladimer. 11 One issue that I just want to draw everyone's 12 attention to in the slide, which I think we 13 would really appreciate comment on in 14 particular, is the con under battery output 15 energy, measurement uncertainty due to battery

16 variations. 17 One of the big concerns is: what 18 happens if -- first, I should say batteries 19 are electro-chemical processes. They can vary

20 over time. It is not -- if an electrical 21 circuit, that is a lot more consistent. So 22 what happens if a manufacturer makes a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169 1 circuit, has the battery, tests it, it meets

2 some future standard. Someone tests that 3 product a year or two later when for some 4 reason the manufacturer of the battery had 5 some kind of variation in its product line, 6 and now the product that had qualified a 7 couple of years prior doesn't qualify. 8 And not only that, but the

9 batteries that the manufacturer had tested 10 under, they don't even work anymore, because 11 even if they had the original batteries, two 12 years later down the line those batteries 13 aren't going to perform the same as they did 14 the day of the test. 15 So a lot of this -- one of the big 16 questions I think that we would really 17 appreciate comment on is: How do you deal with

18 that situation as a manufacturer? And what 19 would your preference be? 20 MR. BROOKMAN: I see a couple of 21 people that are potentially -- we'll start 22 with Gary, and then I'll go to you, Larry.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170 1 MR. FERNSTROM: The work that Ecos 2 did for PG&E -- and perhaps Paul can speak to 3 this better than me -- showed that among

4 standardized batteries that would be used for 5 testing, the influence of the battery was a 6 relatively small effect with regard to the 7 efficiency of the system. Do you have 8 anything you want to add to that, Paul? 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Even over time, 10 even -- that's the element that he -- Paul, go

11 ahead. 12 DR. BENDT: Yes. Well, I 13 certainly agree with Michael that there can be 14 -- a particular battery will deteriorate over 15 time, and often does become less efficient as 16 the battery gets older. As one -- you know,

17 if a manufacturer switches their source of 18 batteries and they are getting batteries, say,

19 from a different manufacturer or a different 20 line of batteries, it behooves that 21 manufacturer to make sure that the product

22 still meets standards with that new line of

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171 1 batteries. 2 It's the same if they switch 3 components in any other part of their system. 4 You know, presumably, it may not really make 5 a new model, but they'd better make sure when 6 they get their diodes or their capacitors from 7 a new supplier, they'd better make sure that 8 the diodes and the capacitors are good enough 9 that they still meet standards.

10 So I don't think that variation is 11 enough that one should sort of change the 12 whole test procedure on account of it. There 13 may be an issue that we want for statistical 14 purposes to test more samples. It may be that 15 just testing a single charger isn't -- or a 16 single set of batteries isn't sufficient that 17 one wants to require testing with three or 18 four different sets of batteries, just to make 19 sure we are getting consistent results. 20 But in general, testing with new

21 batteries that are the same manufacturer and 22 the same chemistry, there is usually not a lot

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172 1 of variation between them. There is some, 2 and, again, that can be averaged out 3 statistically. Bear in mind also that when 4 one has variations in the battery, that 5 affects both the energy delivered by the 6 battery and the energy that the battery 7 charger has to put into it. 8 When you divide those out to get 9 an efficiency, the efficiency is less 10 sensitive to variations in the battery than 11 the charge and discharge energies themselves. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne. 13 MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris. I 14 appreciate the things that Paul said. I do 15 think that we do have to be cognizant of a 16 couple of things here as we move through, and 17 these have already been raised. I think Matt 18 and others have raised them earlier, and that 19 is to try and reduce the testing burden, and 20 particularly to not cause manufacturers to 21 have to test multiple units and do averaging, 22 and so forth, which just raises enormous

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173 1 amounts of costs in laboratories and with 2 testing -- outside testing procedures.

3 So if in fact this is -- this 4 provides very little difference, as Paul said, 5 then I think that we need to try and find 6 another way than just adding on larger numbers 7 of test samples.

8 I would also mention that these

9 same kinds of differences in some cases would 10 appear with other products within DOE's 11 coverage under NACA as well, and we don't see 12 the necessity for doing that kind of

13 situation. So I think that we have solved it 14 there, where it really amounts to a huge

15 difference that can be found. It can be done 16 through sampling plans that DOE already has in

17 NACA and in 430.

18 So I think that we have to look at

19 whether or not it is worth the effort involved

20 in this situation. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 22 Larry?

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174 1 MR. ALBERT: Just to address 2 Mike's question earlier about the effect of 3 the battery and how -- there's two potential 4 areas where this could have an impact. One is 5 in general the change in the energy density of 6 the battery itself. 7 So as batteries improve and 8 manufacturers may want to use higher energy 9 density batteries, if you are -- if what you 10 are measuring and what your metric is set to 11 is the energy consumption of the battery 12 charger, and you are using a test cycle 13 similar to the one that CEC uses, for example, 14 then obviously the input energy into the 15 battery during that test cycle is going to -- 16 is going to increase. 17 So you certainly would want to 18 have something -- your point, right -- that 19 was less -- wasn't really dependent upon 20 increases in energy density of the battery if 21 you are really trying to evaluate the energy 22 efficiency of the charger itself. And so

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175 1 maybe that could be handled through some way 2 of taking the numbers that come out of the 3 test procedure and perform some calculation on

4 it.

5 The second issue is one of what 6 is, you know, regarded as something called 7 "charge acceptance" or it is essentially the 8 electro-chemical efficiency of the battery, 9 which tends to track with the chemistry that 10 is selected. And in contrast to maybe Paul's 11 earlier comment, manufacturers that have 12 battery systems select battery not based upon 13 the relative efficiency of that battery in the 14 charger, but the relative utility of that 15 battery in the end product. 16 And so because of that, we select 17 the appropriate batteries for the end product, 18 and there is a close coordination in design 19 between end product and how to load functions 20 and the kinds of batteries that power it. And 21 so it is not necessarily generally the case

22 that one can sort of switch mid-stream in a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176 1 product from one chemistry to another without 2 some -- you know, some serious consequences in 3 the design. 4 So as a result, you know, there 5 may be accommodation that might be suggested

6 for different kinds of chemistries with 7 respect to electro-chemical efficiency of the 8 cells involved, right? And that would account 9 for the kinds of differences you are talking

10 about. 11 But for the most part, I think if 12 you are talking about, let's say, sealed 13 nickel cadmium cells, or something like that, 14 I think there are very clearly consistent

15 electro-chemical efficiencies that can be 16 associated with that chemistry, right? That 17 then could be used perhaps as a way of setting 18 up a stable baseline for evaluating other 19 approaches. 20 Conceptually, I don't have any 21 issue I think with respect to what is being 22 proposed, right? It is just -- it's the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177 1 practical difficulty of being able to conduct 2 the test, right? So -- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 4 Let's press on with these -- the 5 remainder of these test procedure slides. 6 MR. MALINOWSKI: Sure. And just 7 one more issue. When submitting comments on 8 this proposal, please also be mindful that 9 this does have an impact on the scope of what 10 is included in the term "battery charger." 11 When the battery is excluded from the 12 measurement, that impacts the scope and the 13 battery will be excluded from the -- an

14 eventual standard as well.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. 16 MR. MALINOWSKI: So next potential 17 departure from the CEC test procedure would 18 involve incorporation of usage profiles. And 19 as you all know, power consumption of battery 20 charging systems differs in each operating 21 mode. And, however, the amount of time that a 22 battery charger spends in each mode depends on

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178 1 the application. So you have some 2 applications that are used fairly frequently 3 and require many recharges. The battery 4 chargers for those applications spend more

5 time in active mode. 6 Other applications which are used 7 infrequently, their chargers spend more time 8 in maintenance or unplugged. And DOE may need 9 to consider the time spent in each mode when 10 setting a potential BC standard. However, the 11 current DOE and CEC test procedures do not

12 take into account different amounts of time 13 different applications spend in different

14 modes. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: This would be a 17 great place to go in the future after we have 18 developed better data on the time spent in 19 different usage modes. But I don't think it 20 is practical in the timeframe for this 21 rulemaking. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Rick.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179 1 MR. HABBEN: I guess I disagree

2 with that comment. I think now is the time. 3 I think we need to -- when we do this, we need 4 to do it right from the very beginning. And I 5 think usage patterns definitely need to be 6 incorporated. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you think that 8 data is available out there, and DOE just

9 doesn't know about it?

10 MR. HABBEN: I don't think it's 11 that difficult to obtain the data for usage. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to

13 follow on? 14 MR. JOHNSON: Doug Johnson, 15 Consumer Electronics Association. I agree

16 with that. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

18 Michael? 19 MR. VLADIMER: I would just 20 mention that usage profiles will come up again 21 both later during the energy use and end use22 presentation, because they're a very cross### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180 1 cutting, important aspect of the rulemaking. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 3 Yes, Larry. Go ahead. 4 MR. ALBERT: When we are looking 5 at the existing test procedure that DOE has 6 for battery chargers is that effectively baked 7 into those two modes is a relative proportion 8 between maintenance and standby mode that 9 reflects some sort of way of establishing, at 10 least on an average basis, their viewpoint 11 with respect to usage profiles, right?

12 What is not included in there is 13 active mode, which is -- you know, which we 14 appreciate is a more difficult approach to 15 take, you know, but certainly, you know, the 16 same sort of thinking that went into 17 establishing what that ratio is could be used 18 to establish usage profiles for key categories 19 of end products. 20 I also believe that, if I'm not 21 mistaken, PG&E sponsored research, field 22 research, to establish some of this

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181 1 information. And I don't know whether it is 2 detailed enough to be able to extract that

3 from it or not. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?

5 MR. FERNSTROM: I look forward to 6 industry providing broad-based creditable 7 information on usage patterns to this 8 proceeding.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: He cited a source. 10 Doug cited a source. Are you familiar with

11 that source? Paul? 12 DR. BENDT: Well, I believe the 13 source that Doug was referring to was field 14 studies that were conducted under the CEC peer 15 program. And these were general residential 16 energy consumption field studies. That is, 17 watt hour meters were put on quite a number of 18 different products within a number of 19 residences, I believe in California. 20 A handful of those products were 21 battery charger products. A lot of them were 22 everything from toasters to microwave ovens,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182 1 and so on. So there is some data available on 2 the usage patterns for battery charger 3 products. But since that wasn't the focus of 4 the survey that was done, the data that was 5 acquired on that was more incidental data and

6 --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: It's not

8 sufficient. 9 DR. BENDT: -- it's not really 10 sufficient to determine usage patterns and the 11 variety of usage patterns. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Well, 13 I want to keep pressing ahead. I think we 14 have described that enough.

15 Go ahead. 16 DR. BENDT: Actually, I do have 17 another comment, and that is that I think the 18 discussion of usage profiles shouldn't be in 19 the test procedure itself. The test procedure 20 should give you certain metrics that are 21 related to energy use. 22 And if there are usage profiles,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183 1 they should be -- if they are to be used at 2 all -- and I would question whether they 3 should be used at all -- that they should come 4 after the test procedure. That is, you should 5 get the output of the test procedure then go 6 through the mathematics of the usage profiles. 7 I think we are going to find that usage 8 profiles will change as we get more reliable 9 information, and so on, and that that doesn't 10 really fit into the test procedure, which is a 11 very specific process of measurement. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. MALINOWSKI: Hopefully, the

14 next slide can address this issue.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

16 MR. MALINOWSKI: And that is --- 17 well, one function of usage profiles is that 18 they will yield a measurement that represents 19 the average use cycle of a product, and that 20 is cited in EPCA as one of the requirements of 21 the test procedure, as an annual operating 22 cost or average use cycle.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184 1 However, what you say is correct, 2 that external power supplies test procedure, 3 for example, does not include usage profiles. 4 It measures only energy efficiency and energy 5 use, which is also allowable under EPCA. And 6 that DOE can include usage profiles either in 7 the test procedure or in the eventual energy

8 conservation standard. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug? 10 MR. JOHNSON: Doug Johnson, CEA. 11 Do you mean the use of the product or the 12 charging time? I mean, the average use a 13 product -- say I use my mobile phone three 14 hours a day. Or do you mean the charging 15 time? I charge it for 10 minutes every three 16 days.

17 MR. MALINOWSKI: This would refer 18 to the battery charger itself. 19 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. 20 MR. MALINOWSKI: Though the two 21 are correlated. The more you use a product 22 the more often you will need to charge it.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Larry? 2 MR. ALBERT: Isn't usage -- I this 3 ties in to what you just said, Matt. I would 4 assume that usage profiles would be required 5 at least to be able to justify the case for 6 having a particular regulation under the 7 general guidelines for EPACT, right? And I 8 believe there are similar requirements in 9 California, and that is why PG&E, for example, 10 does case studies, right, to establish whether 11 the energy savings is justifiable considering 12 the impact.

13 MR. MALINOWSKI: So that is -- I 14 think you will see in the later part of the 15 presentation where energy use fits into the 16 rulemaking analyses. So we will address that

17 there. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul, go ahead, and

19 then we'll return to the slides. 20 DR. BENDT: Yes. And usage 21 profiles here really come in two very distinct 22 places. You have to have some sort of usage

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186 1 estimates in order to calculate energy 2 savings, whether or not there are any usage 3 profiles in the test procedure or the

4 determination of standards levels.

5 So the standards levels can be 6 defined like they are for EPSs, without any 7 usage profiles, but the energy savings that 8 you get from those standards levels do require 9 some sort of usage profile to estimate them. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I am 11 thinking that we are due for lunch here pretty 12 quick. So we are going to keep -- I am going 13 to ask Matt to finish out these test procedure 14 slides. Then, we will receive comment, and 15 then, if we need to, we will -- after lunch we 16 can return to these. So, Matt, take us 17 through the rest of them.

18 MR. MALINOWSKI: Sure. So here is 19 just a quick overview of how usage profiles 20 would work, just maybe for the benefit of 21 stakeholders that are newer to this. Energy 22 would be measured in each mode, and then

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187 1 weights would be assigned to those 2 measurements to reflect typical time spent in

3 each mode. 4 Here is an example usage profile: 5 how many hours per week are spent in each of 6 the active maintenance, no battery, or 7 unplugged modes, and then that is -- that 8 would be multiplied by the power consumed to 9 return a typical weekly energy consumption. 10 Just a quick mechanics slide. 11 However, the issue that I think 12 many of the stakeholders have been citing is 13 that the energy use -- and this is also a 14 study that -- based on the study that was 15 brought up, the usage profiles don't really 16 fall into distinct categories. Rather, they 17 lie along a spectrum. You have some products 18 that are -- the battery chargers are in active 19 mode very rarely, others spend much more time 20 in active mode. However, then that is 21 somewhat difficult to correlate to time spent

22 in other modes.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188 1 One possibility that DOE is 2 considering is actually correlating the time 3 spent in each mode to some key BC 4 characteristics, and this is based on the 5 assumption that, for example, larger batteries 6 would be used more intensely -- more 7 intensively, which would result in more time 8 being spent in active mode. 9 And so here, for example, you have 10 time in active mode from some of the previous 11 studies that we saw plotted against average 12 battery energy. And you do see a relationship 13 that potentially could be generalized once 14 more usage profiles are added to this plot. 15 Similar things could be done in -- 16 for maintenance mode, no battery mode. And 17 DOE is currently investigating this and would 18 definitely welcome stakeholder comments, 19 either on the generalizability of this method, 20 as well as any data that might help determine 21 usage profiles, either using this method or

22 another method that stakeholders can

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189 1 recommend. 2 And the next item, shortening the 3 active mode and maintenance mode testing 4 period. Both the current DOE and the CEC test 5 procedure require a 24-hour charge cycle, and 6 DOE is concerned that this may be burdensome 7 during testing. And, furthermore, it may not 8 be representative of typical usage. 9 Therefore, DOE is considering 10 shortening the active and maintenance mode 11 measurements, shortening the active mode 12 period to, for example, eight hours or over -- 13 which would be equivalent to an overnight 14 charge, or until the battery is considered 15 fully charged. Also, shortening maintenance 16 mode measurement currently is 36 hours in the 17 DOE test procedure, four hours in the CEC's 18 test procedure, and DOE is looking to shorten

19 it even further. 20 Here is the quick illustration of 21 what that would mean for the test procedure. 22 This is the current DOE test procedure,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190 1 potentially shortening the active mode period, 2 continuing with a longer charge, however, 3 without doing any measurement, followed by a 4 short maintenance mode test, then the battery 5 would be removed, and a short no battery test. 6 This is just one possibility. DOE

7 welcomes feedback on this. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Larry?

9 MR. ALBERT: Two comments here. 10 With respect to the maintenance mode, 11 shortening the maintenance mode, I think that 12 is -- that certainly doesn't present any 13 problems that I can see, and that is the 14 approach the CEC test procedure takes. 15 However, for the active mode charging, it 16 should be noted that the lowest permissible 17 charge rate, for example, for a NiCad cell, C 18 cells, is C over 10, which results with the 19 charge acceptance rates at about a 16-hour 20 charge. 21 And so if you were to shorten the 22 charge window that you were looking at for

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191 1 active mode, you would be capturing only a 2 portion of the -- of that charge period. 3 Now, you could have, I guess, a 4 couple of different methods within the charge 5 procedure, one for so-called fast chargers and 6 one for slow chargers, right, that would then 7 accommodate all of that. But if you didn't do 8 that, then you would be under representing the 9 amount of charge energy that it was required 10 to take to charge a battery like that, right? 11 And, therefore, if you are 12 comparing it to that battery's full capacity, 13 it would appear to be incredibly efficient 14 when in fact it wasn't, right? So --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul?

16 DR. BENDT: This is Paul Bendt. 17 And I would like to address the CEC procedure 18 originally proposed using a 16-hour charge

19 test and received a number of comments from 20 industry, such as the one we have just heard, 21 that that was not long enough to really fully 22 measure the test of a lot of chargers.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192 1 And our further testing has 2 confirmed that. In fact, we have tested a 3 number of chargers that take more than 48 4 hours to fully charge a battery. Typical ones 5 in that category are the computer UPS supplies 6 that once you have actually drained the 7 battery it takes them two or three days to 8 fully recharge the battery in those UPS units.

9 So based on all of those 10 observations, the CEC test procedure says 11 normally test for 24 hours, but for some 12 products you actually need to run longer than 13 that. So we did look at shortening that 14 active period and found it just wasn't

15 feasible. 16 There was also a difficulty -- it 17 says "or until fully charged." Many products 18 it is difficult to determine what fully 19 charged is. That is not a precise definition. 20 And certainly looking at power consumption 21 over time, many chargers have no discernible 22 transition from charging mode to maintenance

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193 1 mode, and so it is not obvious when that is. 2 One would then have to go to doing 3 repeating testing where you run it a little 4 longer, discharge the battery, see how much 5 energy you get, run it a little longer, 6 discharge it, do many tests until you see that 7 you are not actually getting any more energy 8 from the battery. And so determining fully9 charged is actually a difficult and time10 consuming process. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 12 MR. MALINOWSKI: Maybe just a 13 follow-up question. One thing that I saw in 14 the CEC test procedure involves indicator 15 lights when determining that a charger -- that 16 the 24-hour period is sufficient. Can you 17 talk a little bit about the reliability of 18 indicator lights for assessing full charge? 19 DR. BENDT: Generally -- well, 20 some chargers do have indicator lights. It is 21 probably about a third of the ones we tested, 22 so it is not something that is consistently

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194 1 available to use. Generally, those were fast 2 chargers that did have a transition, and the 3 indicator light was operated internally by the 4 same mechanism that dropped the charging

5 current. 6 But again, that is applicable only 7 to a small fraction of products. And while it 8 is probably a fairly reliable indication of 9 when the charger stops charging, it is not 10 universal enough to use it as a procedure for 11 -- as a determinant for the test procedure. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

13 MR. MALINOWSKI: And the final 14 potential modification to test procedure may 15 involve testing at different depths of 16 discharge. Currently, the DOE test procedure 17 requires testing of the battery charger while 18 recharging a fully discharged battery, or one 19 that has been discharged to 100 percent depth 20 of discharge. 21 However, DOE is concerned that 22 this may not be representative of the way many

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195 1 or even most of the products are used. Take, 2 for example, cell phones, laptop computers, 3 consumer grade power tools, where the battery 4 is rarely fully discharged.

5 So one alternative that DOE is 6 considering would involve incorporating 7 measurement of the energy consumed while 8 recharging a battery from 40 percent depth of 9 discharge. And one precedent for this is Part 10 2 of the CEC test procedure, which requires 11 testing of BCs with batteries at 100, 80, and 12 40 percent depths of discharge. 13 And any comments that stakeholders 14 could provide on this proposal -- or on this

15 consideration would be most welcome.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary

18 Fernstrom. Just a comment on that. I19 frequently use a consumer product battery20 powered drill, and the way I tell that the 21 battery needs charging is when it stops 22 working. So that would be indicative of far

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196 1 more than a 40 percent charge level. 2 MR. MALINOWSKI: But maybe -- I 3 agree that not all consumers -- some people 4 run their cell phone or their laptops down, 5 but what I am trying to say through these

6 slides is that there are cases where that is 7 not the typical -- that some users act 8 differently. Perhaps the test procedures

9 should address that as well. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, please. 11 Wayne. 12 MR. ANDERSON: In our industry, 13 what we do is to protect the phone, the power 14 amplifier, and some other electronics that do 15 not like to operate at lower voltage, we shut 16 down. When you hear that beeping on your 17 phone, it is like at three volts. So it is 18 not fully discharged at all, and that's, 19 again, for operation of the phone. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

21 Paul?

22 DR. BENDT: Yes. Paul Bendt.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197 1 From a scientific perspective, knowing how the 2 battery charger responds to all different 3 depths of discharge is wonderful information 4 to have. The only real tradeoff I can see is 5 I think it adds quite a bit of complexity to 6 both the testing and the development of

7 standards.

8 And I would consider that a 9 disadvantage of this, even though from a 10 scientific and energy consumption -- energy 11 savings perspective, there probably are some 12 advantages to it. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that is 14 -- are you finished with your presentation

15 materials?

16 MR. MALINOWSKI: Yes.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's take final 18 comments right now on test procedures for this 19 series of slides before we go to lunch. 20 (No response.) 21 Okay. Let's go to lunch. Are we

22 kind of --

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198 1 (Laughter.) 2 Let me back up. We covered a lot 3 of material there, and I got the feeling that 4 everybody was kind of dozing off slightly. 5 (Laughter.)

6 So if over lunch there is more to 7 be said about this, we will return to this, 8 just briefly when we return from lunch. 9 It is now 12:40. It takes just

10 about an hour to eat lunch here most of the

11 time. So let's resume at 1:40 in this room. 12 Please wear your badges in the hall. 13 How many of you are not familiar 14 with where lunch is, the big cafeteria is here 15 at DOE? Most everybody is. Okay. Well, 16 follow -- there is going to be a whole troop 17 of people going down a floor and across over. 18 Stay on -- and you will need your ID. Make 19 sure you have an ID, because they won't let 20 you back in from the cafeteria into the 21 building. 22 So thanks for a good day. We have

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199 1 covered a lot of ground. We will cover more 2 this afternoon, and we will resume at 1:40. 3 (Whereupon, at 12:41 p.m., the proceedings in 4 the foregoing matter recessed for 5 lunch.) 6 MR. BROOKMAN: So we wanted to provide an 7 opportunity as I promised just before lunch 8 for anybody to raise any additional issues 9 regarding these test procedures, the things 10 that the department is considering changing 11 and asking you for your comment on to see if 12 there is anything additional that we didn't

13 cover. 14 I had the general sense that we 15 were both ready for lunch and perhaps had said 16 enough about this subject, but didn't want to 17 give it the short shrift. 18 So any additional comments on this

19 before we move on?

20 Michael.

21 MR. VLADIMER: Michael Vladimer. 22 So before lunch, Gary, you had

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200 1 mentioned -- you gave an example where there 2 are some products that use 100 percent depth 3 of discharge. And I think the key question 4 with posing the 40 percent level, not that 5 that number is fixed, but if we look at the 6 world of battery chargers, and there is pretty 7 much a consensus that 100 percent depth of 8 discharge is not the most common, and that 9 maybe 40 percent is, or maybe there is another 10 interim number that is, do you think that 11 would make more sense in terms of setting the

12 standard? 13 MR. FERNSTROM: Probably yes. 14 However it would be a generalization, and it 15 would be hard to substantiate the accuracy of 16 it, and I think Paul indicated it might 17 actually complicate the testing process. 18 So yes, in principle it would be a 19 preferred way if it can be found to be 20 practical and creditable. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne? 22 MR. MORRIS: I can only speak for

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2011 the products in our sphere of the motor2 operated battery-rechargeable products, but in 3 the 25 years or so that I have been around 4 these types of products, I can't think of too 5 many where the consumer uses them until they 6 actually die. The consumer is going to sense 7 that the unit is falling off in terms of its 8 work efficiency and will place the unit back 9 on recharge; or in many cases the product 10 never gets used or discharged very far at all. 11 With cordless rechargeable vacuum 12 cleaners, for instance, people take it off the 13 charging base and draw up two Cheerios and put 14 it back again. So it's that kind of an 15 extreme that we are talking about from 16 products that are deep discharged to 20 or 40 17 percent range down all the way to those that 18 never get discharged more than 2 percent. 19 It is difficult to try and make 20 some configuration and an approximation of 21 this. For that I will agree with Gary. But 22 the difficulty is, if you are really trying to

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202 1 establish what that lowest level is of 2 efficient work that can be performed in terms 3 of its deepest discharge that it's going to 4 routinely see, I think that it's not going to 5 be 100 percent discharged in most of our

6 cases. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Rick. 8 MR. HABBEN: Well, I was just 9 going to state that I think the -- I believe

10 it's the IEC that has the standard out that 11 takes these batteries and discharges them to a 12 certain voltage depending on the chemistry. 13 And I think that is probably the best way to 14 go about it that is fair, that you are going 15 to discharge it -- if it's a certain chemistry 16 you are going to discharge it to this 17 particular voltage. 18 As Wayne says it's difficult 19 because you got so many different product 20 categories, and so many different versions. I 21 have actually seen where somebody was trying 22 to use a shaver, and it didn't have enough

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203 1 battery charger in it, and it -- the foil 2 stopped, and it was stuck to his face. So you 3 have to make sure that you have enough charge 4 in some of those products so that kind of 5 stuff doesn't happen. 6 But all kidding aside I think 7 going to a certain voltage is the best way. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael, do you 9 want to follow up there? 10 MR. VLADIMER: Sure, I just want 11 to address two things. One thing which didn't 12 come through fully on these slides but which I 13 think is in the test procedure, in almost all 14 test procedures, when we say 100 percent depth 15 of discharge, it's not until there is no 16 charge left in the battery. There is a cutoff 17 voltage involved and that does vary by battery 18 chemistry.

19 But the main reason we wanted to

20 talk about this I think is the eventual 21 standard level -- it all ties into energy 22 savings, and I think Paul mentioned this

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204 1 before -- we have to quantify what the energy 2 savings is. And so if the test procedure 3 gives us a number for 100 percent depth of 4 discharge, and that is our only metric, we can 5 say that this shaver, this power tool, this 6 laptop, discharges -- this is how much energy 7 it consumes in a full discharge, but we know 8 that the user is not going to do that, then

9 there is this disconnect between the number 10 that we are getting from the test procedure 11 and our attempt to calculate the actual energy 12 savings. 13 So the main idea of that thought 14 and trying to get feedback is, if the goal is 15 to try to best quantify what the energy 16 savings from a possible standard would be, how 17 can we make the test procedure do that, and 18 would this approach help that goal. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: So Larry, follow 20 on to that point. 21 MR. ALBERT: So it's a good 22 point, and this ties into your question

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205 1 earlier about should you even include 2 batteries in the battery charger energy

3 assessment and stuff. 4 So if you discharge those 5 batteries down to a lower state of charge 6 prior to recharging them, then obviously you 7 are going to draw more energy into the system 8 in a recharging case. 9 However if you also evaluate the 10 capacity of the battery under the same 11 conditions, right, and then you can normalize 12 it somehow so it's independent of the actual 13 delivered capacity of the battery, then maybe 14 it takes that out of the equation somewhat. 15 As a practical perspective with a 16 lot of nickel-cadmium based motor operated 17 appliances, the case is very much as what Gary 18 described earlier, where there is really no 19 system in place other than sort of the 20 functional lack of performance that guides the 21 user as to when you are really at the end of

22 the line.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206 1 However, lithium ion chemistries 2 now, not universally but certainly to a large 3 extent, have built in electronic cutoffs, 4 because there is the actual potential safety 5 issue associated with extremely deep 6 discharges. And you can actually in some of 7 those cases without that protection discharge 8 it below the recommended level that gets you

9 into trouble. 10 So if you wanted to set some sort 11 of pragmatic guideline, if the system itself 12 cuts off at a certain point then obviously it 13 can't deliver more energy than that. 14 If you reach some limit as to 15 functional performance, then that obviously

16 sets a limit as well. 17 But in the absence of those, 18 perhaps you can use something like the 19 prescribed voltage based upon cell chemistry, 20 which is 8.9 volts for NiCads or something

21 like that. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul, go ahead.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207 1 DR. BENDT: There is another 2 practical aspect to this, and that is that if 3 we stick with the cutoff voltages that have 4 already been used, there is a substantial 5 amount of test data already available to help 6 guide with setting standards. 7 If one tries to start over again 8 and say we are going to test to a 40 percent 9 depth of discharge, then you have to start 10 right from the very beginning of collecting 11 data on a whole lot of products using that new 12 test before you ever get some idea of what is 13 reasonable for setting a standard level. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you; 15 final comment and then we are going to move

16 on.

17 MR. ANDERSON: So for us 18 practically, Mike, for us on the cellular 19 side, you do have that safety circuit, and we 20 are never going to get to the 2.5 volts I 21 think is called for in the chart; we are not 22 allowed to go there. So when you tell me to

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208 1 go to 2.5 volts, I can't do it. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: I apologize; I 3 forgot your name? 4 MR. ANDERSON: Wayne Anderson. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you, 6 Wayne. We are going to proceed now. Thanks 7 for that. That was a useful bit of exchange. 8 Matt's up. 9 MR. JONES: Hi, everyone. My

10 name is Matt Jones. I'm with D&R 11 International. It's good to see that you all

12 have decided to come back after lunch. 13 So earlier today we spoke about 14 the scope of the analysis and some of the test 15 procedures, how we are planning to test 16 products, and this afternoon we will get into

17 some of the actual data. 18 I will start things off by talking

19 about the market assessment. I'll turn it 20 over to a couple of more D&R colleagues, and

21 NCI will also be in this mix here this

22 afternoon.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209 1 And so just to remind you what the 2 whole process is about, this afternoon we are 3 going to talk about the actual analyses 4 themselves and gathering data. And the end 5 goal is to provide DOE with enough information 6 so that they can determine where a possible 7 new -- or a possible amended standard for EPSs 8 would be, and new standards for BCs would be. 9 Another thing to keep in mind when 10 we are looking to possible future standards is

11 that we have the current EISA standard. But a 12 future amendment might differentiate between 13 product classes, depending on what we find

14 from the data. 15 And again this afternoon we are 16 going to get into the analyses themselves, so

17 we will examine the structure of the various 18 bits of the preliminary analysis, and we will 19 actually discuss some of the data that we have 20 gathered so far on our initial work on the 21 preliminary analysis.

22 We'll start with the market

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210 1 assessment. This is one of the first stages of 2 the preliminary analysis. And the data that 3 we collect here feeds into other analyses down 4 the line, eventually providing data to the 5 lifecycle cost analysis and the national 6 impacts analysis. 7 And so regarding the market 8 assessment, we are first going to take a look 9 at applications. Much of this data is going 10 to relate to applications, so we will look at 11 why we examine applications; some initial bits 12 of data, lifetimes and shipments; and then the 13 general market drivers and manufacturers 14 involved in the process. 15 And we look at applications for a 16 few reasons. One is that there is actually 17 very little market data on external power 18 supplies or battery chargers in and of

19 themselves. 20 So in order to get data – like 21 shipments, we have to examine the applications 22 that are powered by EPSs and BCs.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211 1 So Wayne mentioned earlier today 2 that EPSs and BCs are merely components of 3 actual products. This is an issue that we run 4 into when we try to find shipments data and

5 lifetime data when we characterize the market. 6 Furthermore the way the 7 application is used drives the way the BC and 8 EPS is used, so it impacts usage profiles when 9 we measure energy consumption. It also 10 impacts the power requirements of the BC or

11 EPS.

12 And another issue is that there 13 are a lot of disparate applications powered by 14 BCs and EPSs. Amongst your handouts that you 15 have today there is a sheet that lists all the 16 applications that DOE has identified that are

17 known to use BCs or EPSs or some combination 18 thereof, and so you can take that with you. 19 We are looking for data on all of 20 these categories, and the idea isn't 21 necessarily to get a perfect detailed analysis 22 of every single application, but rather give

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212 1 us enough information so that we can properly 2 characterize the market, what types of 3 technology that these BCs and EPSs use.

4 So if we take a look at some of 5 the actual bits of data, these are lifetimes 6 of consumer products. Most of this 7 information came from Appliance Magazine. And 8 we make an important assumption that is worth 9 stating here, and that is that we assume the 10 lifetime of the application is equivalent to

11 the lifetime of the BC or EPS in terms of its

12 service life. 13 So if we take a look at a digital 14 camera, even though the wall adapter that 15 powers that digital camera may last for 16 several years, due to changing preferences and 17 technology, consumers may replace that camera 18 and therefore its wall adapter before the

19 actual useful service life has ended. So we 20 are looking for comments on that assumption

21 and also on additional lifetime estimates for 22 other products.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213 1 Take a look at some shipments data 2 as well. So in this graph we are depicting 3 shipments along the Y axis in a logarithmic 4 scale, and then nameplate output power. This 5 is for EPSs only. The X axis: each of these 6 dots represents a product that we found in a 7 product survey among major retailers, and it 8 coordinates an individual product application 9 with all the various output powers associated 10 with it and then weights it up by the 11 shipments of that application. 12 So a couple of things to note on 13 this graph. We look at cellular phones for 14 example; these are the red dots. Shipments 15 are really high; they are approximately 143 16 million units per year. But they have a 17 really tight range of output powers. Those 18 are between, say, 3 and 5 watts. Where as if 19 we look at the blue dots, these are notebook 20 computers, I think in your sheet they might be 21 purple, you see a wide range of output powers

22 with certain clusters around 60 or 70 watts.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214 1 The whole point of doing this 2 exercise is that we can eventually separate 3 the actual application from the EPS; so we can

4 see that there are a number of units that fall 5 in this low output category. Many different 6 product applications use these, therefore they 7 are very high, the number of shipments. 8 Eventually we will take this data, 9 and we will use that to choose representative 10 units, items that we will purchase and test, 11 and things that can be representative of the 12 market when we are calculating energy 13 consumption and working on the engineering 14 analysis.

15 We have a number of sources for

16 data that we have collected so far. And the 17 thing to note here is that we only have one

18 source that looks at the EPS market as a 19 whole, and that is from the Darnell Group.

20 And DOE is aware of no studies that examined 21 just the battery charger market. So we are 22 interested in input for other data sources

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215 1 that we can use to characterize the market for 2 battery chargers and external power supplies.

3 So items for comment: we mentioned

4 that initial sheet with the various 5 applications. Accompanying that sheet is a 6 list of things that DOE is looking for when it 7 requests comment on applications, and the BCs 8 and EPSs that charged them.

9 So take a look at that sheet 10 tonight, and when you submit comments 11 regarding market data and output powers of 12 EPSs, consider that sheet. That kind of puts 13 everything in the form that DOE is looking 14 for; it will make the analysis smoother. But 15 we are looking for information on lifetimes 16 and shipments. We are also looking for 17 information on the distribution of efficiency

18 in the market. 19 So to use an example for external 20 power supplies, how many low voltage EPSs meet 21 EISA versus how many meet Energy Star, and how 22 many meet some level above Energy Star.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216 1 These analyses are going to be 2 important as we calculate energy savings down

3 the line. 4 And finally we are interested in

5 comments on what drives the market in terms of 6 the efficiency of BCs and EPSs; so these can 7 be voluntary and mandatory standards. Demands 8 for portability, so consumer demands; these 9 things can all impact the efficiency of the 10 units in the market. So we are requesting 11 comment on what those drivers are, and more 12 particularly what the impacts of those 13 possible drivers are.

14 So we'll take a look at one of the 15 market drivers right now, and that is the 16 universal charging standard for wireless 17 phones. Several groups of manufacturers have 18 come together to have a universal voluntary

19 standard that is based around a micro-USB 20 input and a 5-volt output. The overall idea 21 of this is to eliminate the need to package a 22 wall adapter with each cell phone sold.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217 1 There are estimates from the GSM 2 association that state that this might reduce 3 EPS shipments associated with cell phones by 4 50 percent. 5 There is also an efficiency 6 component here in terms of a lower no-load 7 requirement. So that could be a significant 8 driver of efficiency with regard to these 9 types of wall adapters. So that is an example

10 of a market trend and we are interested to 11 hear other trends that are of importance. 12 This is a bit of an old graph, but 13 it cuts the market by manufacturer or market

14 share for EPS manufacturers. In 2005 the 15 overall revenues for all of these companies -- 16 actually for all the products that they 17 produced -- was $5 billion. And there has 18 been some consolidation in the market, but

19 these overall leaders have remained 20 independent from one another. 21 In 2008 the market grew 22 approximately 37 percent to $6.7 billion, and

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218 1 the U.S. market accounts for about 34 percent

2 of that total.

3 So these are revenues for EPS 4 manufacturers, regardless of they make other 5 products too. So the actual EPS-associated 6 revenues might be somewhat smaller.

7 We don't have this data for 8 battery chargers. But that is another thing 9 we are interested in learning about.

10 And I think that is all I have. 11 So any questions?

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 13 MR. HABBEN: Regarding the 14 shipment data, if a supplier sends that 15 shipment data to you guys does that remain 16 confidential, or will that be released for the 17 public to see in the future? 18 MR. JONES: Yes, we can 19 definitely have a non-disclosure agreement if 20 you would like to submit data. We can also 21 possibly aggregate that data so your 22 information is masked, so it doesn't become

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219 1 public. 2 MR. HABBEN: Thank you. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So 4 specifically the department wanted to request 5 that they receive comment on other market 6 trends similar to the ones they showed with 7 mobile phones, so that if that was available 8 they'd appreciate your submitting that. 9 MR. REEVES: Doug, I also wanted 10 to point out -- this is Ari Reeves again --

11 that Matt referred to a handout that 12 accompanies the list of applications. That's 13 this one here, for anyone who is trying to 14 find that. So this lists the types of

15 information that we would like to receive 16 about these applications.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And that's in the 18 packet, right? 19 MR. REEVES: Yep. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, it's there.

21 MR. REEVES: I believe it's also 22 on the website if you want to retrieve it

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220 1 later.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. 3 So final comments on this section, 4 and we are going to move to product price

5 determination. 6 MR. REEVES: Okay, I'm going to

7 use this mike because I'm too tall for that

8 one. 9 So I'm going to speak about the 10 product price determination. So if you think 11 about some of the major outputs from the 12 preliminary analysis, we've got the lifecycle 13 cost analysis, the payback period analysis, 14 and the national impact analysis, and 15 specifically the net present value calculation 16 that is part of the NIA. 17 All of these are about weighing

18 the consumer costs with the consumer benefits 19 of setting the standard at different 20 efficiency levels. 21 So one of the things we need to do

22 is estimate those consumer costs associated

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 221 1 with different efficiency levels. Well, if we 2 could observe consumer prices directly, that 3 is if the battery chargers and external power 4 supplies were typically sold separately and 5 not as part of another product, and there were 6 many such units available at different 7 efficiency levels in the marketplace, then we

8 could observe those differences in consumer 9 prices directly. 10 Unfortunately that is not the 11 case, so instead what we do is we look at 12 manufacturer costs, estimated in the 13 engineering analysis, and then we scale these 14 up to consumer prices. And I'm going to talk 15 about how we do the scaling. 16 So the first thing to note is that 17 we start at the point where the EPS or BC 18 first is sold. So that is not to say it's 19 sold by itself. It might be sold along with 20 another product; but it's the point where it's

21 first sold.

22 We examine the distribution

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 222 1 channels to see where markups occur on the way 2 to the market. And then we use gross margin 3 data from major market players to determine 4 the markup at each link in the distribution 5 chain to arrive at a retail price. 6 And lastly to the retail price we 7 add on tax. The national population weighted 8 average sales tax, to arrive at the post-tax 9 price. And we do this for units at all 10 different efficiency levels, for both BCs and

11 EPSs. 12 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. 13 So when you talk about sale, are you talking

14 about the sale of the EPS or BC to the OEM 15 that might incorporate it in another product? 16 MR. REEVES: Exactly; that's 17 right. 18 So let me show you a couple of 19 examples. I have a battery charger example on 20 the left, and an EPS example on the right. So 21 what you see over on the left-hand side is 22 what the DOE believes is kind of the typical

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 223 1 path to market that battery chargers take. So 2 the OEM in the typical situation would combine 3 the components necessary to build the battery 4 charger with all the other components 5 necessary to build the consumer product. So 6 the battery charger is first sold when the OEM 7 sells that product to a retailer. 8 In this example depicted here, we 9 are looking at low voltage products, perhaps a 10 universal battery charger or a grooming 11 product, where the typical retailers would be 12 Target, Wal-Mart, CVS, Walgreens, retailers 13 like that. We looked at some of these large 14 corporations; got their gross margins data; 15 from that deduced a markup of 37 percent, or 16 1.37. So we take the manufacturer's selling 17 price, multiply that times 1.37 to get the 18 retail price, and multiply that times 1.069, 19 to represent the 6.9 percent average sales 20 tax; to get a total markup of 1.46 for battery 21 chargers of this type. 22 And again this is just a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 224 1 hypothetical or an example, not meant to be 2 representative of the final data. 3 On the right-hand side we have an 4 EPS example, and in this example we are 5 looking at low power EPSs, the most common 6 application being cell phones, so 7 manufacturers might be Motorola, or Nokia, or

8 the like. 9 So in this case, unlike the BC 10 example here, the EPSs are manufactured by a 11 separate company that first sells it to an 12 OEM; the OEM packages it with the consumer 13 product; the OEM sells it to a retailer, so if 14 you look at Nokia or Motorola and that cohort, 15 you see that across their whole business the 16 markup for their products and services is as 17 calculated from their gross margin is 43 18 percent. 19 So we have a markup of 1.43, again 20 adding the retailer markup; a slightly 21 different mix of retailers, so a slightly 22 different markup over here. And then adding

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 225 1 the tax, and you get a markup of 2.0. 2 So then we take these numbers, and 3 we can multiply those times the manufacturers' 4 selling prices that come out of the 5 engineering analysis to arrive at the consumer 6 prices for products, at all the different 7 efficiency levels. 8 So real briefly, these are the 9 underlying assumptions in this kind of 10 analysis, obviously simplifying assumptions to 11 make the analysis tractable. 12 The first, the incremental 13 production costs associated with manufacturing 14 more efficient devices is all passed on to the 15 consumer, so the manufacturers and others in 16 the distribution chain don't eat any of those

17 incremental costs associated with the more 18 efficient products but rather pass them all 19 along. 20 The second assumption is that the 21 BC or EPS component of the end use product is 22 marked up the same amount as the end use

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 226 1 product itself; and for that matter, all the 2 other products and services that the companies 3 in question are selling. 4 The third, so we don't try to draw

5 distinctions between different -- the 6 profitability of a company's different product 7 lines -- and the third is that the product 8 markup is taken to be the average markup 9 across all the company's products and 10 services. So that is kind of what I just 11 said, combined with the second.

12 So DOE seeks comments on this 13 methodology as I just described it, and 14 including the assumptions about the percent of 15 shipments passing through each distribution 16 channel. And so I'll just go back here for

17 that. 18 What I depicted in red is what we

19 believe is the most common route to market for 20 different products, but we also plan to take 21 into account the alternative paths such as 22 this one here, and this here where EPSs pass

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 227 1 through a distributor on their way to a 2 retailer or to an OEM. So any information you 3 have about the relative prevalence of those 4 different paths would be welcome.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Rick. 6 MR. HABBEN: I want to speak this 7 now, because it just kind of hit me as we are 8 going through this. DOE is seeking, you know, 9 as we went through this paper this morning and 10 now, you guys are seeking a lot of 11 information, and I think it's a lot of 12 necessary information. But then when I look 13 at the date that you guys have set out there 14 as being July 27th, and you got to remember 15 this is summertime with a lot of people taking 16 vacations, I'm not going to be able to get all 17 this type of comments back to you guys by the 18 27th. So I guess I'm asking is there any way 19 that you guys could extend this out past the 20 27th, just because of the magnitude of the 21 information that you guys are seeking, and 22 trying to get it in that type of timeframe

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 228 1 it's almost impossible. 2 MR. PETROLATI: Rick, we will 3 take it under consideration. Obviously we 4 also unfortunately moved the date of this 5 meeting back quite a bit based on participants 6 and making sure we have the proper

7 stakeholders here. 8 We don't want to impact our 9 schedule of course, the number one priority. 10 And we certainly figured that one week would 11 probably be sufficient time. Why don't you 12 tell us -- can you tell me in an email how 13 much time you will need? And I can check and

14 see if that will do it in terms of not 15 impacting our schedule. I don't know if I 16 want to extend it out for everybody at this 17 point in time. We'd like to start the 18 analysis. So yes. 19 MR. HABBEN: Well, maybe some of 20 it could be prioritized to what you guys are 21 going to work on first. So if there is a 22 particular section that you need comments on

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 229 1 by the 27th, that might be a lot easier than 2 getting everything you are looking for by the

3 27th. 4 MR. PETROLATI: All right, maybe 5 we can do it that way. Let's talk afterwards, 6 or else I'll exchange emails with you and 7 maybe figure out a better approach. 8 MR. HABBEN: Okay. 9 MR. REEVES: Can I also offer up

10 one comment here? I think that a lot of this 11 data that Matt and I have just described or

12 discussed here for the market assessment we 13 can incorporate into the analysis at any 14 point.

15 And there are other kinds of 16 information that we have asked for, 17 particularly this morning, that are more about 18 approaches and directions, and that kind of 19 stuff needs to be figured out sooner rather 20 than later. So in your mind that might be a 21 helpful way to think about what's important 22 and what's not before even getting further

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 230 1 guidance on that. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, and I think 3 it would be useful for the department to 4 provide some information specifically. Okay. 5 So frequently the department

6 receives all kinds of comment on these 7 markups. Are there comments today on the 8 markups that are listed here on 110 and the 9 assumptions listed on 111? Yes, Wayne? 10 MR. MORRIS: Wayne Morris. I 11 guess I have a question, and that is, I was 12 trying to follow the discussion that you were 13 giving and the two examples on slide #110. I 14 guess I don't quite understand why there is 15 such a significant difference between the 16 battery charger and the EPS. 17 MR. REEVES: Are you referring 18 particularly to the path through -- to this 19 level right here? 20 MR. MORRIS: Well, I understand 21 the pathway. But I guess in many respects

22 that the inclusion of an EPS distributor

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 231 1 appears to be the primary difference that I 2 see, and then also the fact that there are 3 some OEMs that might be selling direct to 4 consumers. But in fact that occurs in battery 5 chargers as well. There are OEMs that sell 6 direct through the Internet to consumers. I 7 don't know that that's -- there might be some 8 slight increase with EPSs versus battery 9 chargers.

10 But what I know about the 11 marketplace, and again I don't know much about 12 the marketplace for external power supplies, 13 but in terms of battery chargers I don't see 14 that this missing link of that element that 15 you got, the 1.43 that is the multiplier on 16 the EPS side, I don't see what the purpose or 17 the difference is between that being dropped 18 out on the battery side.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Paul 20 follow on here just briefly. 21 DR. BENDT: I interpret that 22 difference as being where the first sale with

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 232 1 a decent price is associated. One is before 2 the OEM, and the other is after the OEM. And 3 so by the EPSs, because there is a price that 4 comes earlier in that manufacturing chain, 5 there is more markup that comes following it, 6 and it is basically the markup of the OEM. 7 MR. REEVES: Yes, that is about 8 right. And there is another piece in here 9 which I kind of glossed over, and Michael 10 might be able to explain it better later when 11 he talks about the engineering analysis.

12 But we start with a base value 13 which is the factory price, or the 14 manufacturer’s selling price, no matter what 15 you call it, and that is not actually the 16 starting point. Because as I mentioned at the 17 beginning, we start with the production costs. 18 So there is a -- it's not even a markup, but 19 there is a step in here where we move from the 20 production cost to the first price that the 21 thing is sold at, and that is not even shown

22 in here.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 233 1 And the other piece here is, I 2 don't want to -- I don't want to give you the 3 false impression that the starting price is 4 necessarily the same in one example as in the 5 other. So you see that the results -- the 6 total markup here is 2, and on the left-hand 7 side it's only 1.46. That doesn't mean that 8 the consumer price is necessarily going to be 9 higher in the EPS example, because you might 10 be starting with a higher priced product on 11 the BC side before you apply the markup. Does

12 that make sense? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Larry. 14 MR. ALBERT: Larry Albert, just 15 to clarify a couple of things. 16 When you are talking about OEM you 17 are talking about the end product

18 manufacturer. 19 MR. REEVES: Exactly.

20 MR. ALBERT: And so in both cases 21 there, you are expecting that there is a 22 separate battery charger manufacturer or a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 234 1 separate EPS manufacturer from the OEM 2 manufacturer that has manufacturing costs plus 3 their own markup, right?

4 MR. REEVES: In the case of this 5 gray line, this set of arrows here, yes. In 6 the example I gave we assume that there was no 7 separate BC manufacturer. But in the cases 8 where there is, then yes, there would be some. 9 Markup might not be the right word for it,

10 but there is some difference between their 11 cost of production and what they sell it to 12 the OEM at, yes. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Wayne. 14 MR. MORRIS: Again, I said it 15 very early this morning, this is a very 16 complex supply chain. And you can make a lot 17 of generalities, but you are going to be 18 wrong, and the more generalities you make, the 19 farther away from reality you are going to be. 20 At one point in time, I think that 21 possibly 15 to 20 years ago I could understand 22 the realm of the OEM being actually the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 235 1 producer of the battery charger. In other 2 words there would be fewer steps between the 3 production of the battery charger and the

4 consumer.

5 But I don't know that that is the 6 case today, and I think the market is evolving 7 to being perhaps more like the market of the 8 EPS in terms of the OEM, the -- which I take 9 to be the end use product manufacturer, EUM 10 instead of the OEM if you will -- but that 11 company is now purchasing the elements, many 12 of the elements at least, of the battery 13 charger; certainly the wall adapter. So that 14 the numbers of steps I don't know that they 15 are going to be significantly different 16 between the two. And therefore I guess seeing 17 that sort of the dropout of the one multiplier

18 in there between the two on -- between EPSs 19 and battery chargers, I'm just not sure that 20 that is indicative of today's marketplace and 21 supply chain.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear from

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 236 1 Michael, and then I'll turn it back to you, 2 Larry.

3 MR. VLADIMER: Michael Vladimer. 4 So I just want to -- Ari mentioned that I'm 5 going to speak about this in engineering 6 analysis. I just want to bring everyone's 7 attention to why we even care about this. 8 What's the real question? 9 And the real question is in the 10 engineering analysis -- well, first of all I 11 should say everything we are doing is centered 12 around efficiency. And in the engineering 13 analysis the question is what is the cost of 14 that efficiency? 15 So in the engineering analysis 16 what we are going to do is to try to find out 17 that number. And the way we do it is by 18 tearing down the units. So we are going to 19 take our power tools, our shaver, our phone, 20 whatever it is, count how many resistors, 21 count how many capacitors, and then find out 22 for the production volume, millions of phones

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 237 1 a year, thousands of shavers, whatever it is, 2 how much would those capacitors cost.

3 So that's the MSP that Ari is 4 referring to up on the screen here. The key 5 question, and I don't want to get lost in the 6 details of how many different steps there are 7 and what is the markup for each step, the key 8 question that we need to answer is, we are 9 going to have this number of how much these 10 capacitors and everything else cost. We are 11 going to need to say this is what the consumer 12 actually paid for it at the end of the day.

13 We'd love to have it broken down 14 by these steps, but if you are saying that the 15 supply chain doesn't work this way anymore, 16 it's too complicated, whatever the reason is, 17 the key number that we need to get out of here

18 are those two numbers at the bottom of the 19 screen, the 1.46 or the 2.0. Any number you 20 can explain to us and we can explain to 21 everyone else and everyone can agree on it, 22 that if you look at those capacitors that

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 238 1 someone bought in the very beginning when 2 making this product, then look at the same 3 capacitors that were sold to a person inside a 4 product, the person paid this much more for 5 those capacitors, this much more for that 6 whole circuit, and that's what the improvement 7 in efficiency costs. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Larry.

9 MR. ALBERT: But if looks as if 10 those multipliers are being applied to the 11 MSP, which is the output of the OEM, and not 12 to the components, not to the BOM cost 13 basically, right? And so you are talking 14 about, if I understand this correctly, if I 15 put in an improved part or a different part or 16 an additional part into the bill of materials,

17 how does that translate into what the customer 18 or the consumer actually pays? 19 So that would mean you'd want your 20 starting point I would think to be, when you 21 say component manufacturers, I'm assuming you 22 mean like a bill of materials type level, and

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 239 1 then you'd have to get down to the MSP first, 2 right, and then pick your multipliers after

3 that. 4 MR. VLADIMER: Yes, so maybe that 5 would be one way to improve the diagram is to 6 indicate the BOM. Because in the engineering 7 analysis we do look at the BOM. What is 8 implied here, but maybe could be presented 9 more clearly, is we look at the BOM after it

10 leaves -- at least on the EPS side -- the 11 number that we try to focus on is when Delta 12 or Astec sells their external power supply to 13 Dell or HP or whomever, they are selling that 14 at MSP. But yes, we are interested in what 15 did Delta or Astec buy those components for. 16 And here it's shown as the MSP, but yes, we 17 could say the BOM. And I guess maybe that is 18 -- when we present this again at the 19 preliminary analysis meeting, maybe that's the 20 better way to start, is with the BOM rather

21 than the MSP. 22 MR. ALBERT: Yes, certainly if

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 240 1 you look on the battery charger side. And I 2 think what is confusing here is the fact is 3 that we have asserted over and again that we 4 have to maintain some element of engineering 5 control over the elements of the battery 6 charger, that they are truly not commodity 7 items, right. And so therefore you would say, 8 well, does that mean you do all the 9 manufacturing? And the answer is no, many of 10 us do not manufacture the adapter portions nor 11 sometimes the electronics for the battery 12 charger although we may have engineering

13 control over all of that. 14 So consequently even though they 15 are -- can treat them as a commodity and say, 16 here is one commodity that does this, and 17 another one that does that, and treat them as

18 differentials at the MSP that would then 19 filter down to the multipliers. 20 You'd have to do what you first 21 described, which is to say, if I put in a 22 larger capacitor here, how does that percolate

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 241 1 down to the final number that the consumer 2 pays. So for that you'd have to drive your 3 analysis up the chain and have to, I think, 4 resume that. If you went down through the BC 5 manufacturers to the OEM, right, to get -- 6 they put their adders on to whatever you did 7 at the component level. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne. 9 MR. MORRIS: Maybe I'm dense, but 10 I still don't get the difference between the 11 two. I don't know whether 1.46 is right and 2 12 is wrong, or 2 is right and 1.46 is wrong; I 13 don't know. I don't know -- it could be just 14 as easily 2 on the battery charger side or 15 1.46 on the external power supply side. I'm 16 trying to get to an answer of why there is a 17 difference. Because to me the complicated 18 nature of the supply chain in both of them is 19 about equal. And I guess if 2 is the right 20 number for external power supplies then 21 somebody needs to tell me why 2 isn't the 22 right number for battery chargers, or vice

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 242 1 versa. I'm not getting an answer.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I see this 3 gentleman. Ari, do you have a short answer, 4 or shall we hear from this gentleman first? 5 MR. REEVES: Maybe they are. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, please 7 say your name again. 8 MR. GEORGE: My name is Santhosh 9 George. We manufacture many items in 10 different categories: digital cameras, picture 11 frames, big computer speakers. For us it is 12 very simple. Instead of going through all 13 this complicated method of finding out what 14 the price increase is. This is what we do. 15 We don't make the power adapters; we don't 16 make the external power supplies. There is a 17 supplier for that. If you tell them, listen, 18 we want a non-efficient one, let's say for 19 example it costs you $1.04. But if you want 20 one that is energy efficient he's going to say 21 it's $1.24. Who eats that price? That's on 22 your assumption number one. You are saying

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 243 1 that the price is being accurately transferred 2 onto the consumer. Not entirely true. Not 3 entirely true. Sometimes the retailers don't 4 want to pay the extra money just because you 5 happen to be extra energy efficient. They

6 don't want to hear that. For them it is 7 price. Bottom line is reality, it's price; 8 it's the number of points they make when they 9 go down to the consumer. 10 So it would be easier if you could 11 ask the manufacturer, listen, how much are you 12 guys buying the current wall adapter for, and 13 if you want to go to energy efficient what is 14 the extra cost you have to incur. If the guy 15 says 20 cents, that's the answer. Forget the 16 taxes, forget the points, forget everything. 17 MR. REEVES: Thank you, you raise 18 a good point. Like I said at the beginning, 19 in these analyses what we are comparing is the 20 consumer price, the consumer costs, and the 21 consumer benefits from the energy savings. So 22 if this first assumption here is false, we'd

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 244 1 love to get your written comments on that and 2 why that is the case, and what happens

3 instead. 4 MR. GEORGE: My one word answer 5 would be Wal-Mart. Try selling them that. I 6 have energy efficient, it's going to cost you

7 20 cents more. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 9 I'm getting a little concerned 10 that we are not going to make it through all 11 this material unless we pick up the pace. So 12 let's proceed then with the next item, energy

13 use and end use load. 14 MR. SWOPE: Hi, everyone, I'm 15 Toby Swope. I work with D&R International. 16 And I'm going to talk a little bit about 17 energy use and end use load characterization. 18 And it's one of the inputs into 19 the lifecycle cost and payback period 20 analysis. And then that also gets passed 21 along to the national impact analysis. 22 And the purpose really is to take

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 245 1 these efficiency metrics, so Matt talked a 2 little bit about the goal of these analyses is 3 to make more efficient products. And what we

4 want to do is be able to translate those 5 efficiencies into the energy savings that are 6 enjoyed by consumers. So we really need to

7 look at how BCs and EPSs are used. 8 And the way we do that is, we look 9 at how the applications that they power are

10 used. 11 And so I'm going to go through and 12 I'm going to talk a little bit about how when 13 we talk about energy use of an EPS or BC, what 14 do we mean. And then I'm going to go into more 15 depth on battery chargers and then external 16 power supplies. 17 And two basic assumptions that we 18 have when looking at a BC or an EPS, first is 19 that the usage profile of the BC or the EPS, 20 and then the application that they power, that 21 those don't change over time. 22 And then the second assumption is

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 246 1 that the efficiency of the BC or EPS does not 2 affect the usage of the application that it3 powers. This is often referred to as a take4 back or a rebound effect. And in this case as

5 we have talked before when consumers are 6 buying an application they are buying it for 7 some utility. The fact that the EPS or the 8 BC comes with that, it doesn't affect what 9 they actually want that application to do. So 10 they are not looking at the efficiency of the 11 EPS or the BC when purchasing that 12 application. 13 And so we have two ways that we 14 can measure energy consumption. The first is 15 to take power consumption in each mode of that 16 operation and multiply that against a certain

17 amount of time. The second is to measure unit 18 energy consumption directly. And we use 19 different combinations depending on the 20 application we are talking about. 21 An example would be for the BC, if 22 we were measuring unit energy consumption, it

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 247 1 would be similar to the 24-hour charge cycle, 2 whereas for the power consumption and time 3 spent -- I'll go into detail about how that is

4 done. 5 So first let's look at battery 6 chargers. 7 MR. FERNSTROM: Could we go back 8 to the prior slide for just a second. 9 MR. SWOPE: Yep.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: This is a minor 11 technical point, but I don't think power is 12 actually consumed because consumption has some 13 time element associated with it. So power is

14 demanded. 15 MR. SWOPE: Demanded? Okay,

16 thanks. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Gary. 18 Keep going.

19 MR. SWOPE: So when we look at a 20 battery charger, one of the reasons we look at

21 these modes is that when manufacturers are 22 designing their products, if they have to meet

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 248 1 an efficiency standard, they may want to 2 optimize around certain modes of operation. 3 And just to throw the question out there, is 4 that assumption correct? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you 6 restate the assumption? 7 MR. SWOPE: I guess the 8 assumption is that when we -- one of the 9 discussions that we've had earlier today is 10 when we give an efficiency metric, when we say 11 a product has to have a certain amount of 12 efficiency, that manufacturers have some 13 leeway in how they address that efficiency 14 depending on how we set the standards. 15 So say for a battery charger we 16 set a standard, they could meet that by 17 reducing their energy consumption in active 18 mode; they could reduce the energy consumption 19 in maintenance mode; in no battery mode. And 20 they take into account a certain usage in each 21 of those modes of operation when adding in the 22 more efficient components to their products.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 249 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I see a few heads 2 nodding. Larry, do you want to comment on

3 that? 4 MR. ALBERT: Yes, that certainly

5 makes sense. Because we are concerned about 6 actual energy consumption of the charger in

7 use. 8 So if you are concerned about the 9 actual energy usage of the product, the 10 battery charger specifically, then you would 11 want to take into account the proportion of 12 time spent recharging batteries, the 13 proportion of time in maintenance and standby 14 mode, and even disconnected. 15 And so if our goal here is to sort 16 of decrease the total amount of energy usage 17 by battery charging by consumers, then you'd 18 really want to know something like that and 19 take that into the equation. 20 And then using that information 21 you could allocate your resources to the areas 22 where it's going to have the most impact in

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 250 1 fulfilling the overall objective equation. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne, please. 3 MR. MORRIS: And in following 4 with what Larry said, I think there are

5 several of our manufacturers who have both the 6 usage factor situation associated with them 7 and the constraints that they have in the 8 marketplace.

9 Let me see if I can describe that 10 in practical terms. For a value electric 11 shaver, the product is usually charged by the 12 consumer, when it's needed, every two weeks. 13 And the charger is put in the drawer, put14 away, and the shaver is then used for the two15 week period of time. 16 Now there may be more expensive 17 and higher featured types of products which 18 have a charging cradle or something along that 19 line where the shaver is actually stored in 20 the cradle, and it tops up the charge on it

21 all the time. But those are two extremes for 22 the same product. One might be a product that

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 251 1 because of the marketplace the manufacturer 2 has the ability to adjust some components and 3 his ability to meet these kinds of 4 requirements, whereas the other manufacturer, 5 typically in the value chain, may have much 6 more limitations as to where they have. And 7 so I agree with Toby in terms of his basic 8 premise that the flexibility for the 9 manufacturer of where to be able to adjust the 10 amount of energy is critical to manufacturers 11 who participate in all different segments of 12 this marketplace. 13 It is the sole reason why for the 14 last seven years we have been suggesting that 15 an energy efficiency standard be based on a 16 compilation of the energy in the active 17 maintenance and no battery mode so that it 18 allows the manufacturer the ability to adjust 19 that to where they need to be and not meet 20 some arbitrary limits in active mode, followed 21 by an arbitrary limit in maintenance mode, 22 followed by an arbitrary limit in battery mode

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 252 1 which constrains the manufacturer, and does 2 not allow them to be able to adjust to the 3 actual critical controls that they have in the 4 marketplace. 5 One other thing that I would just 6 like to ask, and that is on that chart on page 7 118 or slide 118, where it says, status of 8 battery charger connection to mains. Here I 9 assume the word, mains, is being applied to 10 the source, because it isn't always the 120- 11 volt receptacle as we were hearing earlier. 12 You are also including such things as the USB 13 outlet; is that correct?

14 MR. SWOPE: That is correct. 15 MR. MORRIS: Thank you. 16 MR. SWOPE: And in following on 17 that I'd like to make a distinction, which is, 18 we talked about the incorporation of usage in 19 a usage profile in the test procedure. And 20 possibly the application of a standard. But 21 when I talk about usage here what we really 22 want to know is how to calculate usage in

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 253 1 terms of measuring the energy savings that 2 would be enjoyed by a consumer. So even 3 though they are tied together and they are 4 very similar, in order to measure the impact 5 of a standard, we have to look at the usage of 6 a product.

7 Now how that translates into the 8 test procedure and standards, that's a 9 separate discussion. So if you have concerns 10 about that, definitely we want your comments. 11 But when I go through here and talk about 12 usage, I'm talking about how we would measure 13 the energy savings, the impact of a standard. 14 So in terms of measuring battery 15 charger usage, we have two possible methods 16 for building a usage profile. The first would

17 be to build it around what we discussed 18 before, the 24-hour charge cycle. And that 24 19 hours could be adjusted depending -- we had 20 talked about shortening that length. 21 The advantage of this is that it's 22 consistent with the test procedure. It's

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 254 1 something that is already done as part of the 2 test procedure, so when we are measuring the 3 energy consumption during the test procedure

4 we'd be able to take that value. 5 The disadvantage is that it may 6 not reflect actual use, translating the 7 consumption during that 24-hour charge cycle 8 may not reflect how the product is used.

9 So the second method would be to 10 separate out the active mode and the 11 maintenance mode. And that would actually --

12 that would better reflect the actual 13 consumption. But the difficulty that we have 14 right now, and it's been mentioned earlier, is 15 distinguishing between active mode and 16 maintenance mode. It's not always clear, 17 especially with the trickle-charger type 18 product, of when the battery charger

19 transitions from active mode to maintenance 20 mode. So without having that distinction it's 21 very hard to understand exactly how much time 22 the battery charger would spend in active mode

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 255 1 versus maintenance mode.

2 So in terms of our items for 3 comment, we are requesting feedback on either 4 of these methodologies or an alternate 5 methodology, for building a battery charger 6 usage profile.

7 And then the second would be if we 8 are going with this second method of really 9 narrowing in on actual active mode time, 10 maintenance mode time, that we would need some 11 help in determining how to split that time or 12 how to distinguish when a battery charger was 13 moving from one mode to another. 14 So the next slide will give kind

15 of a breakdown of how this would translate 16 into a usage profile. So in the first table 17 we are looking at a portable media device, so 18 an MP3 player for example. The first method 19 using this 24-hour charge cycle we can see 20 that you would have one 24-hour charge cycle 21 per week which would translate to 24 hours per 22 week spent in that charge cycle. We would

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 256 1 then allocate the remaining time between 2 maintenance mode, no battery mode, and 3 unplugged mode. 4 So in this case we would say that 5 the battery charger would spend 18 hours in 6 maintenance mode; and then 126 hours in 7 unplugged mode. You can't remove the battery 8 generally, so there would be no no-battery 9 time. And that would total for 168 hours per

10 week.

11 If we were to use the second

12 method we would look at how much time was 13 actually spent in active mode. So for example 14 we would say it spent five hours in active

15 mode time. We would then allocate the 16 remaining time from that 24-hour charge cycle. 17 So 19 hours, and group it with the 18 maintenance mode, because that's what the 19 battery charger was actually doing. 20 So then we would end up with the

21 37 hours in maintenance mode. 22 Yes, Larry?

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 257 1 MR. ALBERT: I think with this 2 example it illustrates why it might not really 3 be all that significant to make the

4 distinction between when active mode ends and 5 maintenance mode begins. Because if you ran a 6 24-hour cycle as it is in the CEC test 7 procedure, then presumably at the end of 8 whenever the active mode is, you automatically 9 are then proceeding directly into maintenance

10 mode. So the balance of that time that is 11 captured in the 24 hour period in fact is the

12 same as it would be in maintenance mode. 13 And so numerically I would think 14 you would come out with the same final number.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul.

16 DR. BENDT: Paul Bendt. And I 17 would basically agree, either method works 18 fine if you have good data. The question is 19 really if you have approximate data or you 20 have partial data, which one allows you to do 21 an approximation to something reasonable more 22 reliably with poor data.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 258 1 And in general what we have 2 actually done for our estimates is sort of a 3 combination between them. And I can go 4 through the details with you. But it's 5 essentially to treat a -- to look at what 24 6 hours of maintenance would be; subtract that 7 out from the 24 hours of charge and 8 maintenance; and to say that difference is 9 what a full charge is. And then to really ask 10 how many full charges do you do in a year's 11 time or a week's time or whatever. And if you 12 have three partial charges you count that as 13 1-1/2 full charges. So you essentially treat 14 it as if it is always plugged in in 15 maintenance mode plus a certain number of 16 charges. It's sort of a hybrid between the 17 two of how to work the most accurately with

18 limited information. 19 And Larry is basically right that 20 mathematically they work out the same if you 21 have all the information. It's just then how 22 do you approximate where you have holes in the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 259 1 information.

2 MR. SWOPE: So that ties in with 3 our item for comment here, which is that we 4 are looking for alternate sources, databases, 5 and again, methodologies for how to build this 6 usage profile for battery chargers.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Are there other

8 databases out there? Are there other sources?

9 Paul? 10 DR. BENDT: Again, Paul Bendt.

11 The other source that we know of is this 12 residential field study. And one of the great

13 uncertainties with that is it tried to reduce 14 to a product category that in how many hours 15 in active charging mode, and how much power 16 consumed in charging mode. But there is a lot 17 of inconsistencies. Because for very similar 18 products one might have a one-hour charge, and 19 another might have a three-hour charge that 20 would draw a third as much power. 21 So when you try to average both of 22 them you find that maybe the total energy for

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 260 1 the two products for a charge is similar, but 2 the amount of power that they draw and the 3 time they do it is very different. So in some 4 ways the energy is a more consistent measure 5 than either power or time by itself. 6 MR. SWOPE: And that goes back to 7 the two alternate methods for measuring energy 8 consumption, which is either tying a power and 9 time, and combining them, or measuring an 10 energy consumption directly. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Larry.

12 MR. ALBERT: Just in the context 13 of power tools, in each of the separate areas 14 that we have for power tools we have a pretty 15 good idea what the usage is. The problem is 16 that you get a fair amount of dispersion even 17 within the same product segment. So within 18 professional power tools, however, we know we 19 get to those bimodal distribution usage that 20 is very cleanly defined but is two separate 21 peaks. Within the consumer power tool usage 22 we know that we get maybe some central

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 261 1 tendency but we have a lot of dispersion 2 around that central point. And with certain 3 things like DustBusters, where you have 4 charging cradles and so on, we think we have 5 that fairly well defined by just the nature of 6 the end product.

7 So in each of those cases we come 8 up with estimates. The problem is that it 9 doesn't necessarily take into account the 10 dispersion. But in any case you are going to 11 have an approximation that you are going to 12 have to settle on as being what you consider 13 to be representative of the average usage. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 15 MR. SWOPE: Any more questions 16 regarding battery chargers? 17 Okay, so I'm going to move on to 18 external power supplies. And actually for

19 EPSs we have a lot more information since we 20 have been working on them for some time. So 21 we have the four modes here, and I think 22 everyone is familiar with these modes of

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 262 1 operation. 2 So building an EPS usage profile, 3 in this case we are looking at, for example, a 4 multifunction device. If we were to lay out 5 what the multifunction device was doing, and 6 then how that translated to what the EPS, its 7 mode of operation, we would end up with a 8 usage profile similar to this. And as you can 9 see all the time is spent in active mode,

10 which is not as informative as we would like. 11 So one thing we look at is 12 application states. And this is especially 13 important for certain applications where the

14 EPS is never disconnected from the 15 application, and in essence the EPS is 16 spending all its time in active mode. But the 17 output, the load demanded by the application 18 is not going to be consistent. It could vary. 19 So in this example for a 20 multifunction device you have a case where 21 when it's printing it's demanding 32 watts of 22 power from the EPS, whereas when it's off it's

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 263 1 at 6 watts. 2 A working assumption that we are 3 using right now, and we are testing certain 4 applications to verify this, is that right now 5 the highest level demanded by the application, 6 so in this case printing, would be 80 percent 7 of the nameplate output power of the external 8 power supply, and that the lowest load 9 demanded by the application -- in this case it 10 would be off -- would be 15 percent of the 11 nameplate output power. 12 As I said we are going to be 13 testing to get some more exact values. But we 14 definitely would like some input especially if 15 you are designing a product and you are tying 16 it to an external power supply, on what sort 17 of percentages of load you are looking at in 18 terms of the nameplate output power. 19 And as they go through the next 20 few slides, we'll see why this percentage 21 really matters. But first if we were to 22 expand out and look at the EPS usage profile,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 264 1 using these different application states, now 2 you can see we are looking at something that 3 has a little more detail, where the 4 multifunction device is printing for one hour 5 a week, idle for 31 hours a week, and then off

6 for 136 hours. 7 So measuring energy consumption in 8 the no load mode, this is something that we 9 measure directly from the test procedure. I'd 10 like to point out just in terms of the graph, 11 before we had been looking at output power and 12 efficiency, but in this case we are looking at 13 output power versus the power consumption in 14 the external power supply. Just a note. 15 So we can see here, we would just 16 be able to measure that directly from the test 17 procedure for no load. 18 And then for calculating the EPS 19 power consumption in active mode, we have our 20 four test procedure points, which measure at 21 25, 50, 75 and 100 percent of nameplate output 22 current. In this case we are assuming a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 265 1 constant voltage, so that translates to the 2 25, 50, 75, and 100 percent of output power.

3 We take the four measurements from 4 those four points, average them together to 5 get an average efficiency. So between those 6 four points we assume that the efficiency

7 remains constant. 8 We saw earlier today on a curve, 9 generally after the output power goes above 25 10 percent the efficiency tends to level off, so 11 that is our working assumption. 12 But the big question remains is 13 that below 25 percent what is going on. And 14 we saw before, with that multifunction device 15 as an example, that we had two application 16 states that fell below 25 percent. 17 So what we are considering doing 18 is dividing the calculation of EPS power 19 consumption for active mode into two 20 categories. One would be for those 21 application states that required 25 percent or 22 greater of nameplate output power; and those

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 266 1 application states that demanded less than 25 2 percent of nameplate output power. 3 And so again for the application 4 states above 25 percent we would use that 5 calculated average efficiency between the four 6 points. And so now in this table you can see 7 we have the off, idle, in printing, 8 application states. 9 So right now we are looking at 10 printing. We would then take that output 11 power, move it up to the energy consumption -- 12 or the power consumption curve, and that would 13 give us our EPS power consumption. 14 And then for the application 15 states requiring less than 25 percent of 16 nameplate output power, if we were to extend 17 that curve down to the origin, that would be 18 one approach. However we know that when the 19 output is at zero percent, so at no load mode, 20 there still is some power consumption, so we

21 know this curve is not correct. 22 So what we do is, we adjust it and

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 267 1 interpolate between the no load output power 2 and then that 25 percent, or actually the 3 curve that is built by those four points.

4 And so in this case we would take 5 the two states and move them up to that curve, 6 and that would give us our EPS power 7 consumption. 8 And so we are requesting comments 9 on this methodology for calculating, 10 especially in the less than 25 percent 11 nameplate output power category. And we are 12 also looking for alternative sources for 13 application state loading points, either in 14 the direct amount of wattage that the 15 application is demanding, or as a percentage 16 of the nameplate output power. 17 So then we are requesting comments 18 on the assumption that I talked about earlier, 19 which is that in the highest level of load 20 that the application is demanding 80 percent 21 of nameplate output power, and that at the 22 lowest application state it is demanding 15

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 268 1 percent. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. I want 3 you to leave that slide up there. 4 I want everybody to stand up and 5 just move a little bit here. Just stretch. 6 Don't go anywhere. But let's just -- because 7 I feel like we are losing some energy here at 8 the moment, and we want to make sure that this 9 gets -- we want your brains working at this 10 stage of the game. 11 So you had a comment, it's Ed

12 isn't it? 13 MR. HORNQUIST: Edwin Hornquist. 14 I had the same comment that Gary had earlier, 15 that this terminology issue of power 16 consumption versus energy consumption. I 17 guess that carries through the entire

18 document. 19 MR. FERNSTROM: I was just going 20 to say this energy is being dissipated as

21 heat. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I was thinking

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 269 1 that they cooled down the room substantially. 2 I do hope that we can address 3 these specifically to the extent we can. Go

4 ahead. 5 MR. VLADIMER: Hi, this is 6 Michael Vladimer. Gary, thanks for the point. 7 The key reason that we have power 8 consumption up there is to distinguish the -- 9 there is output power of the application, and 10 then there is the power that we are saying it

11 consumes itself. Granted it is a continuous 12 consumption, and usually consumption is over 13 time. But the main point in talking about 14 power consumption here, as everyone keeps 15 saying, these devices are not what people use. 16 So we don't want to confuse anyone with the 17 power that gets output. Because that happens 18 no matter what. The laptop demands a certain 19 amount of power, the cell phone, whatever. 20 But what we care about is the power that is 21 lost. And we don't want to exactly say that 22 it is lost between the input and output,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 270 1 because it actually does something. But that 2 is the reason for the terminology. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Toby 4 requested additional comment on this 5 methodology. So what do you think? Any 6 additional comments on it? Do you like the 7 way it is? What do you think? Go ahead, 8 Larry, you have to get close to the 9 microphone. 10 MR. ALBERT: So basically you are 11 saying interpolate from the 25 to the no load 12 point for all loading levels down below 25 13 percent.

14 MR. SWOPE: Yes.

15 MR. ALBERT: You are not 16 dictating what those loading levels are 17 generally? 18 MR. SWOPE: No. No, it would 19 depend on the application. So some 20 applications never go into this realm, but 21 often an application might if you turned it 22 off, especially with consumer electronics.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 271 1 They generally have a -- still have a 2 consumption when you turn them off, and it 3 falls below that 25 percent. So we are just - 4 - because the equation of that line that we 5 calculate, with the four active mode 6 measurements, we can't extend it down as you 7 saw. We need to know as accurately as 8 possible what the application -- in terms of 9 its demand versus what's being lost by the 10 external power supply, what that is.

11 MR. ALBERT: Then furthermore are 12 you saying that for all load points above 25 13 percent you interpolate using straight line 14 interpolation from the 25 percent point to 100 15 percent point. But you are going one step 16 further. You are presuming that the active 17 mode load point for an EPS will always be at 18 about 80 percent of the full load value of the

19 EPS. 20 MR. SWOPE: Sorry, I think there 21 may be some confusion. When I say the 80 22 percent ties to the fact that when the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 272 1 application is in its highest power demand, 2 operating state, that is 80 percent of what 3 the EPS could give it; that's 80 percent of 4 the nameplate output power. 5 So in this case the printing we 6 had, it calculated around 81 percent. And for 7 most applications that's what we're saying is 8 roughly where it would fall, is 80 percent, 9 and not 95 percent or 100 percent. 10 So the assumption is that when you 11 match an EPS to the application you are not 12 expecting it to go at 100 percent ever. But 13 if that assumption is incorrect we'd like to

14 know. 15 MR. ALBERT: Transiently it might 16 be, but steady state probably not.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul. 18 MR. BENDT: Yes, Paul Bendt. 19 Obviously if you use the actual measured 20 efficiency of 25 percent that would be better 21 than using the reported average efficiency of 22 25, 50, 75 and 100. But if one doesn't have

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 273 1 the actual measured value of 25 percent, your 2 procedure there looks good. And I'm glad to 3 see that you are interpolating the power input 4 to the EPS, or the power consumption that I 5 think the interpolation is good there. 6 Interpolation in the efficiency 7 would not be good. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: I may have just 9 missed it. Did you comment, what about the 10 two methods? What about the segmentation that 11 they are doing there? Does that make sense?

12 That's the thrust of the comment? 13 DR. BENDT: Again, this is Paul, 14 and I would basically support that. Again if 15 you had more information across the whole load 16 range that would be even better, but lacking 17 that information, this does look like a 18 reasonable approximation. It's looks like the 19 best interpolation one can do with the data

20 that's available. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe we can hear 22 from some industry folks. What do you think?

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 274 1 Is that a sensible method, above 25 and below

2 25?

3 MR. ALBERT: I think that sounds 4 pretty good. With respect to the 80 percent 5 load point for the application, I think 6 probably close to being true for true EPSs. I 7 wouldn't apply that same rule if you are 8 talking about a wall adapter that was powering 9 a battery charger, because that would be

10 different. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, go ahead. 12 MR. HABBEN: I guess -- and I may 13 be a little bit confused -- is this concerning 14 EPSs that are going on multi -- I know Class 15 A, but that all are on multi-output 16 applications, or is this also for single 17 application? 18 MR. SWOPE: Right now this would 19 just be for the single output. If we were -- 20 MR. HABBEN: Single output but 21 multiple load applications? 22 MR. SWOPE: Multiple load, yes.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 275 1 MR. HABBEN: Or is this also a 2 single output for single load application? 3 MR. SWOPE: I guess the way I 4 would describe it, an application has multiple 5 loading points depending on what it's doing. 6 But we are looking at a single output EPS 7 right now because the multiple voltage test 8 procedure, the multiple voltage EPS test 9 procedure hasn't been finalized. So in this 10 case the reason we use -- go ahead. 11 MR. VLADIMER: Just to clarify -- 12 you were about to talk about the multiple 13 voltage test procedure. I think what Rick is 14 -- what Rick is getting at is, so the example

15 here is for a multi-function device. So are 16 we talking about something that scans, that 17 prints, that faxes. So I think Rick, you can 18 tell me if I'm understanding you correctly, 19 but I think you are saying, are we looking at 20 -- certain products like a flashlight, they 21 only have one -- they are either on or they 22 are off, as opposed to a more functional

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 276 1 device that has all these different modes of 2 operation. Is that what you are -- 3 MR. HABBEN: Right, I guess 4 that's what I'm questioning. Are you guys 5 opening up the -- are you guys doing a study 6 for example for a flashlight, or in my 7 particular product case, I have a trimmer that 8 just runs off of an EPS; it has no battery in 9 it. So it has a single load application. So

10 is that also -- would that also fall into this 11 category that is being looked at? 12 MR. SWOPE: Yes, I guess in that 13 case the analysis becomes very simple for us,

14 because we don't have to account for the three 15 different application states. We would just

16 have to account for one. So when the 17 application was on it would always be in the 18 trimming state. 19 MR. HABBEN: Right, so in that 20 particular case, the way it is now, if that 21 EPS, if it's over 25 percent of the rating, 22 you have to do it 25, 50, 75 and 100. So I

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 277 1 guess since we are looking at this, do we dare 2 open the can of worms since it is only a 3 single thing, should it just be taken at that 4 rating that it is running at?

5 MR. VLADIMER: Can I field this

6 one? This is Michael. 7 So first, I appreciate the points 8 that people are raising here with the EPS test 9 procedure. One thing I would say is that 10 Energy Star began their test procedures, and 11 we adopted it, many different bodies have 12 adopted that test procedure.

13 I think one of the considerations 14 that the DOE is looking at is harmonization. 15 And if DOE were to try to separate out those 16 different modes at least for Class A EPSs, it 17 would be a different -- it would depart from 18 the harmonization. That's definitely a fact

19 to consider. 20 As far as your particular product, 21 I think that the main take away that we want 22 to have here is that DOE -- the way this

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 278 1 analysis works, you can almost consider this 2 graph a look up table. Across the bottom of 3 the access is the output power. That's fixed. 4 Your shaver needs a certain amount of power. 5 This printer needs a certain amount of power 6 to print. 7 And the question really is how 8 much power is going to get consumed by the EPS 9 either through losses or doing something 10 useful while providing that output power. 11 So the main thing that I would 12 hope that you would be able to respond to us 13 with a comment on is what is the difference, 14 or I should say it this way, for your shaver 15 that has that wall adapter that is rated, UL

16 has said that it is rated a certain maximum 17 output load, how much do you actually operate 18 at? Is the difference 50 percent? Are you 50 19 percent of the maximum when I'm trimming with 20 your shaver? Or is it 80 percent? Or is it 21 20 percent? 22 We're expecting that the load that

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 279 1 that motor operates on is fixed, and what we 2 are interested in is trying to model where 3 along this look up table the power consumption

4 would be. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: So just a process 6 note. I figure we are somewhere between a

7 half an hour and 45 minutes behind schedule. 8 That means that we are headed toward finishing 9 somewhere between 5:00 and 5:30, I think, 10 unless we find a way to pick up the pace. So 11 I'm going to suggest we move to technology 12 assessment; do that as efficiently as 13 possible. 14 Then maybe we will take a real 15 short break and jump right back into it, okay?

16 Because we do want to make sure we cover all

17 this material. 18 And so yes, Wayne.

19 MR. MORRIS: But before we leave 20 this, I think this is why -- this element that 21 we just covered is why we feel very strongly 22 that the wall adapters or a battery charger,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 280 1 even in active mode, should not be judged in 2 this matter against an averaging circumstance 3 of the load factor. This is not the way they 4 operate; it's not how they operate at all. I 5 agree with you, Michael, you don't have the 6 ability to really open up the test procedure 7 for EPSs for Class A EPSs at least, at least 8 not currently. Let that industry deal with 9 that when they get round to it. 10 But certainly for the battery 11 charger side of things, this is why we've got 12 to be very careful about setting requirements 13 based on arbitrary chart of 25, 50, 75 and 100 14 percent of the output situation on a battery 15 charger, when really that's not the way it's

16 used at all. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 18 Okay, we are moving onto to 19 technology assessment, and then we will take a

20 short break after this.

21 MR. VLADIMER: Good afternoon. 22 I'm Michael Vladimer with Navigant Consulting.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 281 1 I'm going to be presenting the next three 2 analyses, the technology assessment, the 3 screening analysis, and the engineering 4 analysis. 5 So let's get started. 6 So the way the technology 7 assessment works is, its goal is to figure out 8 how to improve efficiency, and then pass those 9 methods for improving efficiency on through 10 the screening analysis and then on to the 11 engineering analysis. 12 The technology assessment focuses 13 specifically on two things. The first is 14 technology options. What are the specific 15 ways that manufacturers can improve the 16 efficiency of battery chargers and external 17 power supplies. 18 Those options are put through the 19 screening analysis, which we will get into, 20 before they are costed in the engineering 21 analysis.

22 The other issue that the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 282 1 technology assessment looks at are product 2 classes. The role of product classes, if you 3 have two products that are similar in many 4 ways but have certain differences, that those 5 differences might mean that the products 6 wouldn't be subject to the same standards; 7 that they are not comparable products. 8 So to specify, DOE is going to 9 look into unique factors that make two 10 products different enough that they shouldn't

11 be held to the same standard. 12 There is legislation that

13 indicates what DOE has to consider. One issue 14 is the type of energy used. Another issue is 15 the capacity of the product, the performance 16 related features. Essentially you want to 17 make sure that consumers always get the same 18 amount of utility. It's all about maintaining 19 utility while improving energy efficiency. 20 So one easy example is output 21 voltage. The output voltage of a power supply 22 or a battery charger has a specific utility.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 283 1 And if you set a regulation that only power 2 supplies or battery charger of a certain 3 output voltage can meet, it might not be a 4 fair standard for all products. 5 I will continue with an example 6 that really gets into output voltage. So here 7 on your left you can see what the market looks

8 like. There is a distribution of 9 efficiencies. At lower output power

10 efficiencies tend to be lower. Then it levels 11 off at higher output power. 12 Now if you go to the market and 13 you focus on what the output voltage of those 14 external power supplies is, it might turn out

15 that there is this clear striation in the 16 market. That lower-efficiency products tend 17 to have lower output voltages, and higher 18 efficiency products tend to have higher output 19 voltage.

20 This should be one indication that 21 DOE is going to consider -- this is the case 22 where DOE is going to consider using output

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 284 1 voltage as a criterion for product classes. 2 In fact Energy Star in their 2.0 3 specification does exactly this. There are 4 two standard levels, one for each product 5 class. They have identified standard models 6 that are held to a higher standard, and low 7 voltage models that are held to a lower

8 standard. 9 This way if consumers want 10 products that use different types of output 11 voltage, they don't lose the utility of those 12 low voltage power supplies. 13 As Vic mentioned this morning, DOE 14 has been working on the issues of battery 15 chargers and power supplies since the

16 determination back in 2007. Just to indicate 17 the stakeholders thoughts from 2007, maybe as 18 a starting point for comments for the 19 preliminary analysis, we have here the product 20 classes that DOE had been developing back in 21 2007 for external power supplies and battery 22 chargers. The basis of these product classes

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 285 1 were largely interviews with manufacturers. 2 Again, voltage was a key input 3 into these product classes. 4 So looking beyond the work in 5 2007, DOE is looking at other criteria that 6 might warrant product classes. Again, 7 beginning with the utility of the consumer, 8 consumers are going to want a product that 9 does something, and those products in turn are 10 going to demand certain types of energy, 11 certain types of performance from the power 12 supply. 13 If you follow that chain the next 14 thing that comes out of that is topology. The 15 manufacturer of the external power supply or 16 the battery charger, they have to choose a 17 topology that matches the need of that 18 ultimate product for the consumer. 19 So the key issue here is if those 20 topologies don't scale the same, if improving 21 the efficiency in one topology is relatively 22 costless, and in another topology it is

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 286 1 relatively expensive, then it might be another 2 good line for DOE to look at in terms of 3 examining the market and finding reasons that 4 there might be a product class. 5 So just to show what this would 6 look like graphically, on this slide you can 7 see that the capacity and performance-related 8 features that begin with the specifications 9 that are coming from the product that can meet 10 the consumers' needs. Then the designer is 11 going to choose a topology, and those 12 topologies as you can see on the right might 13 have different cost-efficiency relationships.

14 Of course DOE welcomes comments on 15 this proposed area of exploration. Anyone 16 have any comments now? 17 MR. BROOKMAN: It's another good 18 graphic. Comments on this? Yes, Larry. 19 MR. ALBERT: Mike, I would 20 suggest that maybe topology is not the most 21 significant thing with respect to user 22 perceived or consumer perceived utility or

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 287 1 value in the marketplace, it's sort of 2 transparent to them. 3 The things that matter most at 4 least to power tool customers are capacity, 5 voltage, charge time and probably just more 6 recently but to a lesser extent, the presence 7 of lithium chemistry versus older chemistries, 8 not from a utility standpoint as much as a 9 special panache associated with it I guess. 10 But those seem to be the things 11 that matter. Now they translate into watt 12 hours and battery pack, voltages of battery 13 pack, and of course output power of a charger, 14 right, kind of those first three elements 15 collectively. Those things seem to have a 16 bigger impact on whether consumers view them 17 as being higher utility or lower utility 18 charge. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 20 Other comments on this -- the way 21 DOE is proposing to do this?

22 MR. MALINOWSKI: Matt Malinowski.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 288 1 Just wanted to follow up on your comment, 2 Larry. Would you say that -- you said that 3 the needs of consumers translate to higher 4 battery voltage, higher battery capacity, 5 higher output power in the charger. Would you 6 say that then those considerations translate 7 to differences in topology, or how do those 8 impact the design of the charger? 9 MR. ALBERT: Yes, they certainly

10 could. I think there was some comment earlier 11 on, and certainly in the technical report that

12 addressed that. And that's a borderline 13 between when you would change topologies then 14 becomes a question of what is the most 15 economical way of achieving that level of 16 utility, right, rather than it being something 17 that you could market directly. I don't know 18 that consumers are buying chargers because 19 they're Flybacks, so. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary. 21 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, just a 22 philosophical comment on Larry's comment.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 289 1 Larry outlined what some of the consumer 2 preferences are with respect to power tools.

3 Those features demonstrate the value that 4 consumers see in these products.

5 The disconnect is that when a 6 consumer buys the product they are not 7 necessarily thinking about the cost of the 8 utility supplied energy to power it. And then 9 when they get the product home, oftentimes 10 they are surprised by the amount of energy if 11 they really knew what it was, that the product 12 uses over a year. And I think a role for 13 codes and standards is to kind of protect the 14 consumer from their ignorance in the initial 15 purchase, because they don't know and don't 16 understand these things. 17 I just wanted to put that sort of 18 philosophical perspective on the record. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 20 Okay, so are you going to continue 21 with technology assessment?

22 MR. VLADIMER: Sure. So another

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 290 1 issue, another line to cut across may be in 2 developing product classes, especially for 3 battery chargers, are some practical 4 considerations for testing.

5 One issue is whether or not the 6 battery is specified for testing. Some 7 products, they either have the battery 8 included, there is some clear indication on 9 the label or somewhere along the line that 10 this is the proper battery for this battery 11 charger. In other cases it's not clear and

12 the tester has to make the ultimate decision. 13 It may not be fair to hold those 14 two products to the same standard. 15 Similarly there might be other 16 complications such as additional 17 functionality. For instance, laptops that 18 can't be fully turned off. Unless every 19 application other than battery charging is 20 turned off, so that we cannot really isolate 21 the battery charger and characterize its 22 energy consumption. That is another

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 291 1 consideration in creating these product

2 classes. 3 Any thoughts on these criteria?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 5 MR. HABBEN: So regarding the 6 product function are you including potentially 7 actually running the product off your same 8 charger? Would that also classify as an

9 additional function? 10 MR. VLADIMER: Can you explain a

11 little further? 12 MR. HABBEN: Basically I'm 13 talking about cord-cordless products, where 14 the battery charger would have the ability to 15 actually power the product if the battery was 16 completely discharged. So to me that 17 potentially would be another product class, 18 because your charger would have to be -- in 19 our case the charger has to be much larger to 20 run the product versus if the charger is just 21 going to charge the battery. 22 MR. VLADIMER: You are talking

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 292 1 about a difference in functionality, and I 2 think that matches the criteria I'm describing

3 here. 4 MR. HABBEN: Okay, I just wanted 5 to clarify. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Larry. 7 MR. ALBERT: With respect to the 8 first item there, batteries specified for the 9 application, I think in our way of thinking

10 here this is the distinction between batteries 11 provided with a lot of appliances and so on, 12 where the battery is very specific for the end 13 product, or it specifies the end product; as 14 opposed to battery chargers that are headed15 for general purpose batteries, such as D- C16 cells or even 12-volt automotive batteries. 17 In this cases, I think, you'll run into a 18 natural sort of problem in evaluating the 19 charger where you have to establish some sort 20 of standard battery I would think if you are 21 going to continue to use test methods similar 22 to the CEC test method where you evaluate the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 293 1 charge for batteries that are not necessarily 2 directly recommended. 3 So at least with appliances and so 4 on, I think we are okay, because we have that 5 pretty well nailed down. It's just some of 6 these other categories where there could be a 7 problem. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.

9 Paul? 10 DR. BENDT: Just one quick 11 question on sort of the other functionality, 12 and I'll bring for mind a particular battery 13 charger that we again tested that was intended 14 to charge power tool batteries, but also had a 15 radio, and the radio drew about 10 watts of 16 power and you couldn't turn it off, so that no 17 matter what happened you always had 10 watts 18 going into the radio. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Even if you had 20 the volume all the way down. 21 DR. BENDT: Even if you had the 22 volume all the way down. And if anything what

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 294 1 would we would like to do by setting a more 2 strict standard that sort of ignores other 3 functionality is to encourage manufacturers to 4 put an off switch on the other functionality 5 rather than giving them an incentive to leave 6 that switch off and get a credit for wasting 7 power because of the other functionality.

8 So the fact that it has been done 9 inefficiently historically is not a reason to

10 continue to allow manufacturers to do it 11 inefficiently in the future. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 13 Final comments on these slides, 14 23, 26 and 27, because we are about to take a

15 short break? Let's do that. Can we do this 16 in 10 minutes, because we do have a lot of 17 ground to cover still.

18 There is a Coke machine on the 19 ground floor, almost directly beneath us, kind 20 of opposite the closed snack bar. And there 21 are several vending machines there, snacks and 22 cold drinks. So let's get moving, and get

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 295 1 back here, please wear your badges and we will 2 get through the rest of this material and 3 receive the rest of your comments before 4 proceeding. 5 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off 6 the record at 3:24 p.m. and 7 resumed at 3:34 p.m.) 8 MR. BROOKMAN: We are going to 9 move on with technology assessment, and we are 10 on slide #143, and Michael is going to 11 continue. Go ahead, Michael. 12 MR. VLADIMER: Thanks, everyone. 13 So continuing, as I mentioned, 14 there are two main parts of the technology 15 assessment that the Department of Energy is 16 going to perform. I just covered the first 17 part, the product classes, and the second part 18 is to look at technology options. 19 Technology options are the ways 20 that manufacturers can improve the efficiency 21 of the battery charger or power supply.

22 So let me start with external

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 296 1 power supplies. I'm not going to go through 2 the whole list, but just to name a few: low 3 power integrated circuits -- this we think -- 4 we've heard from many manufacturers is a great 5 way to save power; the integrated circuit is 6 essentially the brains of the power supply; 7 and you could have two integrated circuits 8 that perform -- that allow the user to have 9 the same experience, but one could have an 10 algorithm that saves a lot more energy than 11 the other, that really conserves power when

12 it's not needed. 13 So that's one thing. Another 14 thing to mention is rectification. Typically 15 rectification makes sure the output power is a 16 DC output. Usually it's done with a diode, 17 but there are Schottky diodes, a certain type 18 of diode that has less loss, synchronous 19 rectification is another way of rectifying

20 with even less loss. 21 So there are definitely methods 22 that we are aware of at this point for

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 297 1 improving efficiency of external power 2 supplies. Any other points that manufacturers 3 have on ways of improving their efficiency are

4 more than welcome.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's do slow6 charging BCs as well, and then we'll take all 7 these comments together.

8 MR. VLADIMER: Great. 9 So for the slow charging battery 10 chargers there also are a number of ways to 11 improve their efficiency. Again to name a 12 few: improved cores; the transformer is one of 13 the biggest -- tends to be one of the biggest 14 components that consumes power, and a lot of 15 that is due to the quality of the steel in the 16 transformer. Improving the core of that steel 17 -- improving the steel core is one way to save 18 energy. 19 Another really important way is 20 termination. So once the battery charger is 21 finished charging the battery, once the 22 battery is full, the battery charger can

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 298 1 reduce the amount of power flowing to the 2 battery, not provide a lot of excess power, 3 just provide enough power to keep that battery 4 topped up; or it could even use limitation of

5 maintenance current where it will allow the 6 battery to degrade just slightly from full 7 charge, and then a little while later top it 8 off. And the way that works the user won't 9 even -- the amount the battery decreases is so 10 slight that the user might not even notice, 11 but it's still a great way to save energy. 12 And then going on to fast-charging 13 battery chargers, a lot of the ways I just 14 described for slow chargers and for EPS's, 15 also apply. And then there is also one option 16 that we identify which is phase control. This 17 is similar to the way light dimmers work. 18 Again, when the battery charger doesn't need 19 excess power, limit the input power going into 20 the battery charger.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So we have a host 22 of technology options for both external power

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 299 1 supplies and battery chargers. What do you 2 think? Do you like the list? Are there 3 other technology options that the department 4 should consider? And this is for product 5 classes. Go ahead, Larry. 6 MR. ALBERT: A couple of 7 questions, Mike. One is, I'm assuming that to 8 fulfill the feasibility requirement that these 9 are all technologies you have seen evidence 10 during a tear-down analysis; is that correct?

11 MR. VLADIMER: We have done tear12 down analyses. We've done a number of tear13 down analyses. And we haven't gone and looked 14 for the specific technologies in every case, 15 and I think one of our goals for preliminary 16 analysis is to look for them. 17 One of the challenges, though, I 18 would say is that in order for our engineers 19 that support us in our test lab, they have to 20 go and look at the bread board, back up the 21 circuit, and decide which parts are doing 22 what. And it's not a simple task. You have

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 300 1 seen bread boards as well. It's not a simple 2 task of just opening up a product, looking at 3 the bread board, and saying, oh, there is a 4 synchronous rectification circuit; I can see 5 the transistor right there. 6 There is a lot more subtlety to it 7 than that, so that's been the challenge. But 8 I think our intention is to try and do that. 9 One thing I would just add on that 10 is if manufacturers have products that they 11 think we should look at, and they want to 12 provide circuit diagrams that we could verify 13 the circuit boards against rather than have to 14 come up with the specs on our own that would 15 definitely facilitate the process. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: So as I am looking 17 at this list, I would like to hear from 18 anybody else in the room about things that are 19 clearly not plausible, things that are 20 missing, that kind of a comment would help the 21 department, I think. 22 Larry, continue, and then I'll go

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 301 1 --

2 MR. ALBERT: The reason I'm 3 asking is in the draft technical report, you 4 go through the screening analysis of the 5 technology options. And one of the 6 requirements is the question of feasibility. 7 So the presumption is that you 8 would evaluate the feasibility if it had 9 passed through the screening process. I 10 assume that's correct, right? 11 MR. VLADIMER: Yes, I would say 12 as far as the feasibility of these options, 13 most of these options have come from 14 manufacturers, and I would expect that they 15 would only tell us stuff that they could 16 actually do. So we are pretty confident about 17 the feasibility. 18 But again, we still want to prove

19 to ourselves that it's demonstrated in 20 products. It's definitely a goal that we

21 have. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne, go ahead.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 302 1 MR. ANDERSON: Wayne Anderson. 2 So yes, I like your list. It looks good. 3 Actually I was going to say when some of these 4 newer requirements come out, do you see the 5 manufacturers reacting to create these little 6 power ICs like you are talking about, like 7 come up with algorithms and different things 8 for standby mode for example, that kind of 9 thing. 10 So you may not see it in today's 11 products, or what could be the next 12 generation, depending on the new requirement

13 that comes out. 14 So if you have a good tight 15 relationship with the manufacturer, you can 16 say what kind of things would you do 17 differently? Is this plausible? You go to 18 them and ask them what's going on in their 19 minds, that's in the IC. 20 Yes, the rest of it is doable. 21 It's all doable. And then of course you are 22 keeping track of cost versus benefit. Because

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 303 1 some of these things, I mean you can go to 2 resonant mode supplies and things like that, 3 and you get very exotic, you get 95 percent 4 efficiency, but you are looking like I don't 5 know a $25 OEM cost or something crazy like

6 that. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, great. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: So I think you 9 have a good list of opportunities that go to 10 the battery charger. I have a couple of 11 suggestions on the battery charger system.

12 The Southern California Edison 13 Company found in their testing of battery 14 charger systems that if there is a way to 15 determine the charge of the battery when it is 16 placed in the charger, and then correctly end 17 the charge when the battery is charged, that 18 is sort of an operational opportunity with the 19 system to improve energy efficiency. 20 The second thing would be to go to 21 higher voltage lower current battery systems, 22 which also gives an opportunity to improve

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 304 1 efficiency. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Paul.

3 DR. BENDT: Paul Bendt. I would 4 also add for slow chargers to consider a 5 capacitive reactance circuit rather than a 6 line-frequency transformer circuit. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Keep going. 8 MR. VLADIMER: Okay, so we've 9 gone through the technology assessment. Now 10 let's continue on to the screening. 11 So the way this works is the 12 technology assessment identifies technology 13 options, ways that the DOE can consider 14 improving efficiency. All these methods are 15 screened by certain criteria, and those that 16 meet those criteria are passed on then as 17 design options into the engineering. 18 So the screening criteria, there 19 are four principal screening criteria. And 20 you can see the citation if you want to find

21 out more about them. But the main idea is 22 that first any technology option has to be

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 305 1 feasible; it has to be at least be able to be 2 demonstrated in the lab. Second, it has to be 3 practical to manufacture. It can't just be 4 made in the lab; it also has to be able to be 5 made commercially. 6 Third, the -- it can't hurt 7 consumer utility. People are buying products 8 that use battery chargers and power supplies 9 to get a certain functionality. If the 10 improvement in efficiency of the BC or EPS 11 hurts that ultimate utility then the 12 technology option can't pass the screening 13 analysis, unless of course there are any 14 negative impacts on health or safety, that 15 also would be grounds for not putting a 16 technology option through the screening 17 analysis and as a design option in the 18 engineering. 19 So if anyone has questions or 20 thoughts on the screening analysis? Sure. 21 MR. ALBERT: Again to the 22 feasibility question. And I thought I had

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 306 1 read it some place, and I saw it in the draft 2 technical report, that the DOE's criteria is 3 that technologies that are not incorporated in 4 commercially available products or working 5 prototypes are not considered to be feasible. 6 Is that the criteria that you guys

7 use as a matter of course? 8 MR. VLADIMER: I'm sorry, I 9 couldn't hear you on that one. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Larry, repeat it 11 please. 12 MR. ALBERT: I'm sorry. Did the 13 criteria for feasibility is that it's either 14 present in a commercially available product or 15 working prototype. 16 MR. VLADIMER: Yes, if people can 17 show us that, then that would definitely be 18 something that we would want to consider. 19 MR. ALBERT: And you wouldn't 20 consider something that you didn't have

21 evidence of that for?

22 MR. VLADIMER: I mean I think --

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 307 1 if we come up with -- if manufacturers give us 2 a long list of different ways of improving 3 efficiency, in terms of technology options, I 4 think ideally DOE would like to look into 5 every single one of those. From what we've 6 heard there are lots of different ways to 7 improve the efficiency of these products. 8 So I think this is all moving

9 forward towards an ultimate standard. There 10 are many different stages in the process. If 11 anyone thought that any of the technology 12 options that needed, warranted additional 13 research, we should make sure that they are 14 demonstrably feasible, because if there is any 15 doubt about that, then of course I think DOE

16 would look into it. 17 But as far as proving every single 18 one for the sake of proving it, I don't know

19 if that is the best use of time. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: You are wanting 21 some assurance that the technology needs to be 22 at the prototype stage?

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 308 1 MR. ALBERT: Certainly having 2 manufacturers incorporating technology in 3 commercially available products is a very good 4 indicator that the technology is feasible in 5 that application. There's a lot of power 6 supply technologies and power conversion 7 technologies that are available that may or 8 may not find their way into commercially 9 available products, or may not find their way 10 into let's say battery chargers because of 11 other issues that aren't quite apparent when 12 you read about them in a more abstract way. 13 So I just wanted to make sure that 14 there is a standard, a practical standard that 15 has to be fulfilled for feasibility before 16 this is offered up as a technologically viable 17 solution to lowering energy usage. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. VLADIMER: Excellent. Thanks

20 for those concerns. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Rick's got a 22 comment, please.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 309 1 MR. HABBEN: I don't know if this 2 is the right area, but where does the ability 3 to put the technology in compared to the cost 4 and price point, is that later, or is that in

5 this area now? 6 MR. VLADIMER: You just hit the

7 nail on the head. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Wayne. 9 We are going to get to the impact on price, 10 hopefully today. Wayne. 11 MR. MORRIS: We can stay here 12 indefinitely. I do appreciate the separation 13 that you made between at the very least the 14 slow charge versus the fast charge, and I 15 would encourage you to maintain that 16 separation, because while that is not 17 indicative of every determiner in the 18 marketplace that certainly is one division

19 that is keen between those manufacturers who 20 have to provide a product with more consumer 21 value as opposed to those that have multiple 22 features that a consumer might be willing to

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 310 1 pay more for. You know where I'm coming from, 2 Michael. I think it's important to separate 3 the two out, and show that there are some 4 technological options that might be 5 appropriate for fast-charging BCs that 6 wouldn't be appropriate for slow charging. 7 And I encourage you to maintain that kind of 8 separation, so that if we get to a situation 9 where there is a different product class, we 10 understand that there are going to be some 11 limitations to where technology can take us in 12 the more value oriented products. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 14 So moving on to engineering analysis. Oh, 15 wait, Gary has a comment. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: If I could just 17 follow up on Wayne's comment, there are some 18 limitations on how far technology can take us 19 with value oriented products for sure, but 20 those are economic choices. So the question 21 is how much does it cost to get the energy 22 savings.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 311 1 MR. BROOKMAN: So moving on to 2 engineering analysis. 3 MR. VLADIMER: Moving on to 4 engineering analysis, to both Gary and Rick's 5 point, that's exactly what we are trying to

6 address. 7 So we take those design options 8 that have gone through the screening analysis. 9 These methods for improving efficiency. And 10 in the engineering analysis we cost them. As 11 I mentioned earlier we are going to try to 12 cost them at the component level, and then 13 later we will mark that up with the product 14 price determination what the consumer is 15 actually going to pay. 16 So what is the purpose of all 17 this? The goal of the engineering analysis is 18 to really nail down this cost-efficiency 19 relationship. In general it looks like the 20 curve on the left, a general theoretical 21 curve. At the low end, when you have lower 22 efficiency, it tends to be cheaper. And when

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 312 1 you have high efficiency it tends to be more 2 expensive. When you start improving 3 efficiency from low efficiency to get a little 4 bit higher, the cost is not going to be that 5 much. And then when you get to your highest 6 levels of efficiency, the increase in cost is 7 going to be more substantial.

8 So what that looks like for the 9 consumer is what the graph on the right shows, 10 that at low efficiency the consumer is going 11 to buy a cheap product at the store, but every 12 year that they use the product they are going 13 to be paying for it in operating costs. 14 On the other hand they might go to 15 the store and buy something that is really 16 expensive, but not realize those savings over 17 the lifetime of the product. So they will 18 have a high purchase price even if the 19 operating costs are low.

20 So as Matt Jones started us off 21 with, the target standard level the DOE is 22 going to try to set in 2011, the goal is

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 313 1 something of a happy medium that is shown here

2 at the bottom of the curve. You don't want 3 the operating costs to be too high. You don't 4 want -- you don't want the purchase price to 5 be too high. 6 And the way we figure out all of 7 that is right now with engineering. So there 8 are a number of steps in the engineering9 analysis that we take to determine the cost10 efficiency relationship. The idea of the 11 engineering analysis is to really focus 12 narrowly on a few select products, and then to 13 scale the results of those products across 14 everything in the market. 15 So on the left, you might remember 16 from before the break this figure I put up 17 that shows what a distribution of output 18 voltage might be for external power supplies. 19 And maybe in that case there would be three 20 product classes. But then DOE rather than 21 doing an analysis on all three product 22 classes, might choose one product class, which

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 314 1 is termed the representative product class, 2 and do an analysis on that product class. 3 I just want to pause and say that 4 of course the department cares equally about 5 battery chargers and power supplies, and I'm 6 going to present throughout the rest of the 7 engineering analysis an example, tie 8 everything back to an example, only for 9 external power supplies, but of course the 10 structure of what I'm presenting, it's equally 11 applicable to both external power supplies and 12 battery chargers. 13 At the very end of this I will 14 show examples of -- a data example of what a 15 cost efficiency curve looks like in practice.

16 So once DOE has selected 17 representative product classes or a 18 representative product class, the next step is 19 to define representative units. A 20 representative unit is a theoretical unit. 21 You can't hold a representative unit in your 22 hand; it's something that DOE creates on

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 315 1 paper, and it's defined in every aspect 2 possible except for its efficiency and its

3 cost. 4 And the idea then is that if you 5 have every -- you know everything about this 6 unit. You know its output power, its output 7 voltage, its production volume, its ripple, 8 everything you can specify, then when you look 9 at the variations in efficiency that you will

10 be able to see the resultant cost and then 11 characterize that cost-efficiency 12 relationship.

13 So here in this case we have four 14 different representative units that are shown 15 that the DOE might select for an external 16 power supply within the representative product

17 class. 18 Any questions so far? Great. 19 So moving on, the next step is 20 within those representative units the way I 21 described it before efficiency could be 22 anything. It could be any value. There was a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 316 1 continuum of efficiency. 2 But DOE needs to do an analysis, 3 and the easiest way to do that analysis is to 4 set discrete levels of efficiency.

5 And the discrete levels that DOE 6 examines for these units, they're termed 7 candidate standard levels of efficiency. 8 Because ultimately in 2011, one of these 9 levels could be what DOE ultimately sets as 10 the standard level for power supplies or for 11 battery chargers. 12 Of course the preliminary analysis 13 is going to include some CSLs that may or may 14 not be the same as the CSLs in the NOPR stage 15 or the final rule stage.

16 But the idea is that CSL-0 is the 17 baseline. It's the lowest point in the market 18 to date. Then you have higher CSLs that show 19 possible levels that DOE could set to improve 20 the efficiency in the market. 21 Want to step back for a moment and 22 look at ways of gathering data, and issues

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 317 1 that DOE wants to consider when it looks at 2 representative units; when it looks at setting 3 CSLs. One issue is data gathering. This is a 4 real important point I think for the analysis. 5 The -- as I said, the representative unit is 6 defined in every single way. Let's say we set 7 the output power at 18 watts. Well, if DOE

8 has found units that meet all the other 9 criteria of the power supply other than that 10 nameplate output power -- let's say it finds a 11 19 watt or a 16 watt or a 15 watt power 12 supply, it might -- one of the ways that it 13 can still include that interesting data point 14 in its analysis is through scaling. 15 So what you see here is, there's a 16 representative unit, let's say it's at that 18 17 watt level, whatever level it might be. There 18 are units off to the right and left, slightly 19 lower output power, slightly higher output 20 power. DOE is intending to come up with a way

21 to scale the results from those units to be 22 representative units.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 318 1 And the key issue here is, as you 2 have seen in the different graphs that we have 3 presented, there is a relationship between 4 output power and efficiency. So if you go up 5 in output power you might result in a slightly 6 more efficient product, or if you go down in 7 output power it might be a slightly less 8 efficient product. 9 So DOE is going to try to come up 10 with a way when you take a 20 watt unit and

11 scale it to be 18 watts to show what its 12 efficiency would be were that 20 watt unit 13 actually been 18 watts. There is going to be

14 more information on this for sure in the 15 preliminary analysis. Gary. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Actually I think 17 the information I presented this morning in 18 terms of the capacity of the battery system 19 showed a relatively consistent range of 20 performance across the board. So I hope this 21 will turn out to be easier than you think. 22 MR. VLADIMER: I hope so too. It

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 319 1 definitely is a challenge when it gets 2 complicated. 3 Okay, another issue I should note 4 are proprietary designs. This is not 5 something that is dealt with directly in the 6 screening analysis, but it is definitely a 7 concern to DOE. So we have -- there are going 8 to be all these different CSLs, all these

9 different candidate standard levels of 10 efficiency. And DOE is going to look at 11 different technological pathways of achieving 12 those efficiencies. If only one manufacturer 13 can make the technology, and there is a patent 14 on it, to reach that certain efficiency level, 15 then DOE may not be able to include that level 16 going forward and setting the standards.

17 Nonetheless I do want to stress 18 that DOE is definitely interested in, and the 19 analysis team is definitely interested in 20 understanding all the different possible 21 technologies out there, and if a manufacturer 22 wants to discuss any proprietary designs with

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 320 1 DOE, if they don't feel comfortable sharing it 2 publicly, it's very common to sign a 3 nondisclosure agreement. We have actually 4 done this at Navigant Consulting, on numerous 5 occasions, and then Navigant Consulting will 6 provide a limited dataset to DOE such that DOE 7 can still make a good decision in the analysis 8 setting, and the manufacturer doesn't have to 9 disclose proprietary information. 10 Any comments, thoughts, on 11 anything discussed so far? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne. 13 MR. MORRIS: I know you sort of 14 ducked it very well, but I do want to come 15 back if I could, Michael, to the candidate 16 standard levels for battery chargers. And I 17 apologize for having to ask this. I won't ask 18 you certainly where the candidate levels are 19 going to be. I'm not going to do that and put 20 you on the spot. But I am concerned about how 21 we are going to arrive at the zero or baseline 22 for battery chargers, particularly those that

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 321 1 are the non-class A and the battery charger 2 type of using a wall adapter. 3 Is it the department's view or 4 Navigant's view that we would use the wall 5 adapter portion of that that would be in 6 compliance with the tier two California levels 7 from CDC, or are we going to start with 8 something other than that? 9 MR. VLADIMER: So you actually 10 raise a great question, and the next slide

11 addresses it.

12 MR. MORRIS: Perfect lead in. 13 MR. VLADIMER: Perfect lead in, 14 using a plant in the audience. So a great 15 question: how are you going to -- okay? 16 MR. ANDERSON: Wayne Anderson 17 here. You have a scalable concept here, and 18 you say you scale on output power and voltage. 19 I just wondered if you included your classes 20 from -- you had a slide earlier where you had 21 less than 3 volts, then 3 to 9 volt, and you 22 had greater than 9 volt.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 322 1 I'm just -- you know if you are 2 scaling, if you have like a 2 volt and you 3 scale it to 3 volt so they are all 3 volt, 4 it's fine. But if you pulse into another 5 region I'm wondering if you are scaling across 6 regions, do you see what I'm saying? 7 MR. VLADIMER: Yes, I definitely 8 see what you are saying. Just to make sure 9 everyone is on the same page, what you are 10 talking about is scaling results between 11 product classes. Because what we showed 12 before, the 9 volt line for the battery 13 chargers, and the 3 volt line for the battery 14 chargers, those were divisions of product

15 classes. 16 I think that the key idea here 17 with scaling data is that we are scaling when 18 products are very, very similar. So if they 19 are close enough so that we think we can do 20 this reliably, yes, we want to scale them. If 21 they are in different product classes I think 22 it's going to be a lot harder to scale

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 323 1 specific data points. Later we do want to 2 scale between product classes, but in this 3 case we are just talking about increasing our 4 dataset for the representative unit. 5 Does that answer your question?

6 MR. ANDERSON: Yes.

7 MR. VLADIMER: Great. Unless 8 anyone has anything else I will go to answer 9 Wayne's question. 10 So Wayne was asking, how do you 11 come up with CSL-0? How do you find out where 12 the lowest point in the market is? 13 There are a couple of different 14 considerations. One is any current standard. 15 So for Class A external power supplies there

16 is a standard. I'll defer to the members from

17 DOE here as to whether or not that would be 18 CSL-0, but I think that there is definitely 19 movement toward using the EISA level of CSL-0 20 for Class A external power supplies. I think 21 it would be difficult perhaps to make a case 22 for using something lower.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 324 1 But as far as battery chargers2 that don't have a standard; as far as non3 Class A external power supplies that don't 4 have a standard; the idea really is to do 5 test-and-tear-downs. Go out into the market, 6 find the lowest efficiency products, the 7 biggest energy consumers, and use those as a 8 way to define the bottom of the market. 9 The testing and tear downs will 10 help in setting the CSLs and it's also going 11 to be our key input in coming up with the 12 cost-efficiency relationship.

13 So before I showed a theoretical 14 cost-efficiency curve, it looks really nice, 15 very easy to follow, very smooth. In practice 16 it's going to be a lot more choppy, because we 17 are going to be dealing with discrete points, 18 discrete data points. And you'll see that the 19 CSLs are going to -- sometimes they'll be set 20 right at a data point, and in other cases you 21 might have a data point that is between CSLs, 22 and we'll have to lump that in.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 325 1 So that is one thing to consider. 2 As far as the tear-down side, I do want to 3 mention that DOE is looking at having a 4 company called iSuppli do tear-downs. iSuppli

5 is known for manufacturer -- for tear-downs 6 that are of different products, and we think 7 that they do a pretty good job of estimating 8 what the manufacturer actually pays for the 9 product at production volumes. That's really 10 been a big challenge for us is anyone can find 11 out how much a capacitor costs if you buy one 12 or two of them, but when you are talking about 13 10 million for a certain product line that's 14 where the real challenge comes in, and we 15 think they are doing a pretty good job. But 16 if anyone has any other ideas as to how DOE 17 can come up with the costs of these tear-downs 18 and pricing those components, we are more than 19 open to suggestions. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne, do you have 21 any follow-ons there? No? Okay.

22 MR. VLADIMER: Then the last

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3261 thing, the other method of getting this cost2 efficiency relationship, of getting these data 3 points along the curve, is manufacturer 4 interviews. I really want to stress that they 5 are very important to the department; the 6 department greatly appreciates any 7 manufacturer interviews. Any manufacturers 8 that come forward for interviews, again, if 9 there are any proprietary issues that you want 10 to discuss, you can have a nondisclosure 11 agreement with Navigant Consulting so that 12 information remains proprietary and only 13 public information is passed on to DOE.

14 So once we have our cost15 efficiency curves, which is the key output of 16 the engineering analysis, the next step is to

17 scale those results. So there are two main 18 points of scaling. First, as you can see on 19 the left, we have representative units, and we 20 scale all across the representative product

21 class. 22 And then on the right you can see

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 327 1 how we take a representative product class and

2 scale the results of that all across the other 3 product classes.

4 And at the end of this we will

5 have a number of candidate standard level of 6 efficiency, for every single product class. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Questions? 8 Comments on that methodology. 9 Go ahead, Rick. 10 MR. HABBEN: So once you have 11 this data, the cost versus efficiency, is 12 there a formula out there that says if it's 13 this much cost to gain this much efficiency 14 it's not worth it, versus it is worth it?

15 MR. VLADIMER: That's an 16 excellent question. Again, you're alluding 17 right into the next analysis. 18 So the way the DOE goes about 19 that, there are two specific analyses, there's 20 the lifecycle cost analysis, and then there is 21 the national impacts analysis. And those two 22 analyses, the LCC, the lifecycle cost

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 328 1 analysis, addresses that question but for --

2 but on a consumer level. So as a consumer if 3 I go to the store, and I buy a more efficient 4 product, am I going to realize savings? And 5 will this standard help me or make me pay more 6 money in the end? 7 And then the national impacts, 8 instead of just looking at the consumer it 9 looks at the entire country. So what will 10 America pay as a result, or save, hopefully,

11 as a result of the standard? 12 If there are any other questions? 13 Great. So as promised, here is one example, 14 a cost-efficiency curve. This is what it 15 looks like in reality. This cost-efficiency 16 curve is for a non-Class A external power 17 supply, specifically for a medical power 18 supply. It's a draft curve. I don't want 19 anyone to think it's a final result. But just 20 to show, as Vic mentioned, DOE is also21 developing a determination analysis for non22 Class A EPSs. This is one of the interim

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 329 1 results that we thought would help 2 stakeholders understand what the output of the 3 engineering analysis is. 4 And here what we are looking at -- 5 we have two things going on, we have the curve

6 itself -- that's the blue line -- and then we 7 have the data points that DOE used to assess

8 the curve. So in this case the -- we have 9 four candidate standard levels of efficiency. 10 CSL-0 is based on a test unit. DOE, to find 11 the bottom of the market, for medical power 12 supplies, measured a unit around 65 percent 13 efficient, and that's the basis of CSL-0. So 14 Wayne, that's how we would do it, at least for 15 this non-Class A external power supply.

16 The next two levels are based on 17 the International Protocol of Efficiency for 18 external power supplies, the level IV and 19 level V. And then the highest level is from 20 manufacturer data, CSL-3. And in that case 21 manufacturers spoke with Navigant Consulting 22 under a nondisclosure agreement and indicated

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 330 1 how they might be able to achieve a higher 2 efficiency and what the resultant cost would

3 be. 4 So this is the key output that you 5 can expect going forward. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So I have a 8 question. You show CSL-0 being derived from a 9 medical power supply. Are those not exempt? 10 MR. VLADIMER: As I mentioned, 11 this graph comes from the non-class A 12 determination analysis for medical power 13 supplies. Medical power supplies are exempt

14 from Class A standards. So the Class A 15 standard for this type of product would be 16 CSL-1 if medical power supplies were subject 17 to EISA standards, but they are exempt.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: I understand. 19 MR. VLADIMER: Great, so unless 20 there are any questions I'm happy to move on. 21 So I guess we were scheduled for a break but 22 we will continue and you will let us know the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 331 1 next time to take a break. 2 Oh, we have one question. 3 MR. MORRIS: Sorry, I thought you 4 were going to get there, and I was sort of 5 waiting. Wayne Morris, sorry. I still don't 6 know that I got quite an answer on how you are 7 going to set the baseline CSL-0 for battery 8 chargers. I'm sorry to have to ask again, but 9 is there a way you can tell me a little more

10 about that?

11 MR. VLADIMER: No worries at all. 12 I'm very happy to explain. So the 13 preliminary analysis is forthcoming; it's 14 ongoing. So I can't tell you what's going to 15 be in it, because the department is still 16 doing the work. 17 But to help answer your question I 18 think I can refer you to the example that I am 19 showing here in Slide 165 for medical power 20 supplies. So in this case the department is 21 considering tying CSL-0, the lowest level of 22 the market, the baseline of the market, to a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 332 1 unit that it found in the market. And I would 2 expect that a similar methodology could be 3 used for battery chargers. 4 So what that means in practice is, 5 go out there, buy a lot of battery chargers, 6 test their efficiency. As my colleague, Matt 7 Malinowski mentioned earlier, there are a lot 8 of different test procedures out there. And 9 you highlighted a concern, which is that if 10 the test procedure changes from the current 11 DOE test procedure that we are going to have 12 to be testing for all these different types of 13 battery charger test procedures. So I would 14 expect that it will probably be more than just 15 the DOE test procedure. 16 But either way, ultimately DOE is 17 going to go buy the products, send them to the 18 test lab. The test lab is going to measure 19 them. We will have a certain efficiency, or a 20 certain power consumption. And then just plot 21 that, and whatever unit is the lowest that

22 could -- that to me would be the baseline

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 333 1 unit. 2 I just want to add on that note, 3 and I'll get into it in a little bit in the 4 lifecycle cost analysis, when we talk about 5 improving efficiency, that we do look at the

6 distribution of efficiencies in the market. 7 This is certainly an area that DOE would love

8 stakeholder comments on. Is most of the

9 market at CSL-0? Is most of the market at 10 CSL-1? Where, if DOE were to set that 11 standard, maybe it would only be affecting 12 just a few products, and that's definitely 13 something that comes into effect in the LCC. 14 But I don't want to get too far 15 ahead of myself. Okay, Wayne? 16 MR. MORRIS: Not a question but a 17 comment then. I guess based on that, and I 18 appreciate that, it sounds very thorough and 19 complete, I guess based on that I would 20 encourage you all to look at battery chargers 21 not as a unified whole but rather as having 22 different if you will classes or subclasses

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 334 1 that may be involved in them. 2 So you already showed for instance 3 earlier the slow versus fast, which we have 4 already talked about. But induction charging5 being another one, Rick brought up cord6 cordless which is a different case entirely 7 from that type of situation.

8 I think that there are some of 9 those utility situations which may require a 10 slightly different look at the battery 11 charging field. It's not a universal whole

12 out there. 13 I might even suggest that if you 14 are extending the possibility beyond those 15 non-Class A units that fall within the battery 16 charging, and broadening it out to some of the 17 large scale type of battery chargers, 18 forklifts, you know, golf carts, and those 19 kind of situations, that those would have 20 separate cost-efficiency calculation curves 21 based on them, because their situation may 22 have no relationship whatsoever to a cordless

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 335 1 vacuum cleaner charger, to a golf cart 2 charger. And when you are doing your 3 analysis, and I'm going to ask you if you 4 would to make sure you place them into 5 separate fields. I figured you probably 6 would, but I just wanted to state it. 7 MR. VLADIMER: Just to follow up 8 on that, everything that you are saying is 9 exactly the information that DOE is looking 10 for. If you want to put it into a written

11 comment that would be even better. 12 But just to take what Wayne just 13 said and put it into DOE jargon, Wayne, what 14 you are asking for is for DOE to have 15 different -- up here, the representative prior 16 classes, you are asking for different 17 representative prior classes for slow 18 chargers, for fast chargers, because you 19 believe that they have different utilities and

20 therefore DOE should consider each of them 21 separately in terms of product classes. 22 And so if you have -- if you want

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 336 1 to in your written comments on the framework 2 document, if you want to specify different 3 product classes, or representative product 4 classes that DOE should focus on, and if you 5 have, building off this on the next slide, if 6 you have representative units that you think

7 DOE should focus on within those. So it would 8 be great to hear about fast chargers, but 9 which type of fast charger? What battery 10 capacity? And the more you can specify what 11 you think DOE should look at and why, the

12 easier it is for us to take that information 13 and to consider it as we go forward in the 14 analysis. 15 Okay, so moving on, I'm going to 16 hand off now to my colleague, Scott 17 Worthington. Scott is going to discuss the 18 manufacturer impact analysis. And then I'll 19 come back and return to wrap up my 20 presentations with the LCC. 21 MR. WORTHINGTON: Thanks,

22 Michael.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 337 1 My name is Scott Worthington. I'm 2 with Navigant Consulting. And I'll be speaking 3 about the preliminary manufacturer's impact 4 analysis. 5 Sorry, no break. 6 As you can see the pre-MIA is 7 fairly early among the other preliminary 8 analyses, and it's coordinated in conjunction 9 with engineering analysis. 10 A lot of the other analyses have 11 focused today on consumer impact. The pre-MIA 12 of course focuses on the manufacturers, on the

13 cost to the manufacturers. 14 As part of this process, Michael 15 touched on this a moment ago, we will be 16 conducting interviews, and we would like to 17 conduct interviews with as many manufacturers 18 as possible to obtain more information.19 So what's the purpose of the pre20 MIA? It's really to discuss the potential 21 impacts, both financial and other, that the 22 rulemaking will have on manufacturers.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 338 1 We want to understand key issues 2 for manufacturers, and to understand some 3 other -- any information that we should 4 consider when establishing those CSLs. 5 It's also another good chance for 6 us to verify some other information that we 7 gather about the market.

8 So this slide here shows the 9 entire methodology of the MIA generally. I’d 10 like to point out that at these six stages, 11 and three phases, that four of those stages 12 are actually in the NOPR stage. So while 13 they're something to keep in mind, the focus 14 right now is on the first two stages which is 15 the industry profile and the pre-MIA

16 interviews.

17 And those of course are the data 18 gathering phases that we are talking about. 19 The industry profile is more on our own using 20 public information and other industry reports, 21 whereas the pre-MIA interviews of course are 22 in conjunction with the engineering analysis

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 339 1 where we will come and discuss the concerns

2 and comments of manufacturers. 3 But just to give you a sense of 4 where we are going later, we will develop the 5 straw man GRIM which I believe was actually 6 referenced earlier this morning. The GRIM is 7 the Government Regulatory Impact Model, and

8 that's the cash flow model that we use to 9 evaluate the financial impacts of potential

10 standards. 11 After developing that framework, 12 we will then develop an interview guide, and

13 then conduct a second round of interviews. 14 And then we will be able to perform our 15 analysis based off of that second round of

16 interviews. 17 Some additional pieces of

18 information that we will look at after that 19 next round: we will be looking at any other 20 subgroups or niches within the market, 21 including small businesses, employment levels, 22 competition, and any other cumulative

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 340 1 regulatory burdens. So are there any other 2 regulations that are impacting industry that 3 may also impact this rulemaking? 4 But again to get more specific to 5 phase one and just the pre-MIA which is where 6 we are today, we want to focus on the industry 7 profile, and on the pre-MIA interviews. 8 The industry profile is publicly 9 available data that we gather which serves as 10 a place where we can identify critical issues 11 that require any other special consideration. 12 Again these are niches in the market, 13 different product types, market shares, 14 profitability, and shipment projections from

15 individual manufacturers. 16 We're then going to use that data 17 as a jumping off point for the pre-MIA

18 interviews. And what we will do is we will 19 use that public data that we gathered to

20 measure as the baseline. And we are 21 interested in confirming or getting new 22 numbers from manufacturers. So we are really

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 341 1 interested in that quantitative data if you 2 have it. And that's everything from again 3 shipment projections, product mixes, 4 profitability, market shares.

5 We’re also interested in

6 conversion costs. What would the costs of 7 plant modifications be if any at different 8 CSLs. And also stranded assets, would any 9 current equipment no longer be able to be used 10 under a new production method.

11 We are also interested in the 12 qualitative information too, so any comments 13 or concerns about the proposed standards we 14 are interested in hearing about, and the 15 impacts on the manufacturers.

16 We’re also interested in 17 inflection points. As we move up the CSLs, is 18 there a certain point when the proposed 19 standards, you think may be especially 20 difficult or especially costly to implement? 21 We're interested in knowing where that 22 inflection point may be if there is one. And

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 342 1 that's something that we will of course take

2 into consideration. 3 And lastly as Michael referenced 4 earlier, we do have confidentiality 5 agreements. We have nondisclosure agreements, 6 and then of course any data that you give, 7 whether it's cost data or other, will only be 8 disclosed in the aggregate form, unless 9 otherwise specified. 10 Again, the pre-MIA is a data 11 gathering stage, and we are looking for as 12 much information as possible so we can plug in 13 better assumptions and inputs into our

14 financial cash flow model. 15 Are there any questions? 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please,

17 Jennifer. 18 MS. AMANN: Yes, Jennifer Amann. 19 Just one comment. I know the legislation 20 currently in Congress includes a number of 21 provisions to help manufacturers offset 22 conversion costs for producing more efficient

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 343 1 equipment or new energy-efficient product 2 lines. So I think that is something that 3 should certainly be taken into account, the 4 potential impact of that legislation if it 5 passes in the MIA. 6 MR. WORTHINGTON: Thank you. Of 7 course we can't predict whether it's going to 8 pass or not, but of course we will take that

9 into consideration. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So11 additional comments, final comments on pre12 MIA? Okay, let's move to lifecycle costs, and 13 payback period analysis. 14 MR. VLADIMER: I'm going to stand 15 to the side so you can see me. 16 Great, so again, I'm Michael 17 Vladimer. I'm going to round out the 18 afternoon with the LCC, life-cycle cost 19 analysis. Then I will hand off to my 20 colleagues at D&R, who are going to present 21 the national impact analysis, and pretty soon 22 we will get to hear your closing remarks.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 344 1 So the LCC, so Rick again great 2 question, how do we figure out, now that we 3 have this cost-efficiency relationship from 4 the engineering analysis, after we've marked 5 up those costs with consumers. 6 I just want to mention that we are 7 dealing with a lot of economics in this, and 8 Vic earlier presented a slide that listed the 9 seven statutory criteria. Economic impact on 10 the consumers is one of the considerations, 11 and Scott just mentioned impact on 12 manufacturers, which is another. 13 So how does the LCC work? Well, 14 the goal of the LCC is to identify these costs 15 to consumers over the lifetime of the product. 16 To do that we are going to look at the 17 economics from the perspective of the 18 consumer. In particular we are going to look 19 at the difference between CSL-0, that baseline 20 level that Wayne was concerned about, and any 21 other levels, so the idea being, consumers are 22 going to be purchasing a product. That

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 345 1 product is going to have a battery charger, a 2 power supply, and no matter what they have to 3 pay something if they want that product. That 4 is CSL-0; they are going to pay no matter

5 what. 6 The question is if DOE would have 7 set that regulation, if they were to move that 8 bar higher in 2011, how much money would that 9 consumer save? That is the goal here of the

10 LCC. 11 So there is a number -- yes, please? 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Rick. 13 MR. HABBEN: And that number, 14 when you guys take that into account, is that 15 not taking away any features or any benefits. 16 That's like product to like product, correct? 17 MR. VLADIMER: Exactly. Any 18 difference in features and benefits, that is 19 supposed to be addressed through product 20 classes, such that we are only doing 21 comparisons of products that are similar. 22 So the LCC, because it is more of

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 346 1 a downstream analysis, it has a lot of inputs 2 from some of those upstream previous analyses 3 that we discussed throughout the day. 4 From the engineering analysis we 5 are going to look at the MSP, or the BOM cost 6 for the -- that CSL-0, the baseline, as well 7 as the cost for those higher CSLs. From the 8 product price determination we will have 9 marked up the MSP to what the consumers are 10 going to pay. That means the retailer markup, 11 the sales tax the consumer has to pay, from 12 energy use and end use, that we will be 13 looking at unit energy consumption. Unit 14 energy consumption at CSL-0, and any higher 15 candidate standard levels of efficiency.

16 And then from the market 17 assessment we will be considering the

18 lifetime. We need to know how much time do we

19 have to amortize this increased first cost 20 that sometimes happens for a more efficient 21 product. 22 There are a few different inputs

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 347 1 that are unique to the LCC that we haven't 2 seen yet. They are, the electricity prices 3 and electricity price trends, as well as the 4 discount rate. So how much is electricity 5 going to cost, and what is the value of money

6 to the consumer. 7 One thing we should mention, this 8 is actually a pretty interesting challenge 9 that we welcome stakeholder comments on, DOE 10 at this point intends to focus the analysis on

11 the residential sector. What this means 12 practically is that some of these products are 13 used in the commercial sector; some of these 14 products are used in the industrial sector. 15 Power tools, for instance, laptops, these are

16 sold across different sectors. But at this 17 point DOE thinks that because the majority of 18 products are sold and used in the residential

19 sector that it makes sense to focus on that

20 sector alone. 21 What this means in usage profiles, 22 we are going to look at how a residential

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 348 1 consumer uses the product, and not necessarily

2 an industrial or commercial consumer. 3 Same with electricity prices, the 4 price of electricity in your house is not the 5 same that your company pays to keep the lights

6 on. So we want to make sure that when we are 7 looking from the consumers' perspective that 8 it is always the residential consumer.

9 I think this is -- it's an 10 assumption but I think it's a really important 11 assumption because of the diversity of 12 products. Earlier D&R passed out a handout 13 that showed 70 different products. There are 14 a lot of different products here, and to try 15 to get across these different sectors would be 16 a challenge. That's not to say that DOE 17 wouldn't be able to do it, but it definitely 18 helps to simplify that challenge. 19 Any thoughts on this decision or

20 this intention?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Your name? 22 MR. GEORGE: My name is Santhosh

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 349 1 George. Just out of curiosity, last week in

2 the Wall Street Journal there was an article 3 that basically said that almost 60 percent of 4 your general people who has a cell phone or a 5 laptop or an iPod and most people actually 6 gets charged not in the house but in an 7 office. Did you know that?

8 MR. VLADIMER: I would love to 9 see that article, if you could submit that. 10 MR. GEORGE: They said people who 11 come with cell phones during work, they put it 12 there and they charge it. Laptops, also. 13 Thank you.

14 MR. VLADIMER: That is the kind 15 of input that we are looking for. So to me

16 that is more of a market trend issue how 17 people use their products. But I think that 18 my colleagues at D&R who focus on the market 19 side would really appreciate that kind of 20 input. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne. 22 MR. ANDERSON: Wayne Anderson.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 350 1 Yes, we have another division of Motorola that 2 sells to police and fire and all that, and 3 their usage is different for residential as 4 you might imagine. They are more interested 5 in very reliable, so they are tending to have 6 these things on all the time. It's just a 7 whole different pattern.

8 And I'm not real familiar with 9 what their designs are, but they are more 10 industrial definitely than ours on our side, 11 but they are in the same voltage and power 12 ranges -- actually a little big higher power, 13 but anyway. So I would have a little heart 14 burn I guess with just kind of ignoring that. 15 MR. VLADIMER: Well, you raise a 16 good point, and I think that I should have 17 stressed this. It's on the slide. The scope 18 of the rulemaking is on consumer products. 19 MR. ANDERSON: Okay, so you are 20 saying they are probably exempt -- I'm not 21 going to pin you down -- but industrial like 22 first responders would not be covered?

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 351 1 MR. VLADIMER: That would be my 2 expectation. We think that it is safe to

3 focus on the residential sector because most 4 policemen are policemen not consumers. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Gary.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So I understand 7 that we are looking at consumer products, but 8 many consumer products get used in residences

9 and small commercial businesses or commercial 10 premises. So I generally support the idea of 11 looking at residential rates and the 12 residential application. However I think you 13 might want to consider some sort of pro ration 14 where you estimate that some percentage of 15 this equipment goes into small businesses and 16 consider the financial impact of that as well. 17 MR. VLADIMER: Excellent, so I 18 would follow that up with any information that 19 people have that they submit as written 20 comments on the divide, across the 70 21 products, across any particular products, is 22 more than welcome to try and address that

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 352 1 concern. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Wayne first. 3 MR. MORRIS: Then I assume, Gary, 4 by your comment then that if they are 5 businesses they are paying a business 6 electrical rate which will probably be lower,

7 so that needs to be factored in as well. 8 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, that was the 9 exact point that I was getting to.

10 MR. MORRIS: If we can establish 11 some percentage around that situation and have 12 some hard numbers, I think that is okay. But 13 I do think that we have to be very cautious, 14 because under NAECA it does say consumer, 15 residential, these products -- I think if I 16 remember right we were sitting around this 17 table when Francine was reading us the section 18 that described what the requirements were 19 about residential consumer products. So as 20 long as we don't get too far away, or Francine 21 is going to come back down here and capture us 22 again.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 353 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Toby. 2 MR. SWOPE: Just to jump in I 3 think we are jumping ahead actually in the 4 presentation. Since I am stepping ahead, the 5 National Impact Assessment does take into 6 account the fact that there are these products 7 that are used in commercial settings. So we 8 are looking for that split, because we know 9 laptops especially would be a great example 10 that a lot of them are actually used in office 11 settings. So we do need to factor in that 12 usage as well as the price of electricity, the

13 difference between the commercial and 14 residential segments. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks for 16 that insight. 17 Then are we at -- the last thing 18 on the table here was this key assumption. 19 Any additional thoughts on residential as 20 being the focus? 21 Okay. 22 MR. VLADIMER: Great, so in

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 354 1 addition to looking at the divide between 2 commercial and residential, if you are going 3 to pursue that route then we will be

4 interested in discount rates. So at this 5 point for the LCC DOE is intending to look at 6 the discount rate, the value of money to

7 residential consumers. 8 The discount rate, this is how 9 much is money worth to someone. So you look 10 at credit card rates, interest rates, all the 11 differing values of money to the consumer, to 12 come up with the weighted average cost of 13 capital to buy your BC or EPS. 14 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I 15 have a question about that. I think interest 16 rates are generally low now because of the 17 state of the economy. But money is precious; 18 that is, more of us have less of it to spend. 19 So how do you account for that? 20 MR. VLADIMER: I'd say it's a 21 good concern that we can pursue in the 22 preliminary analysis. We'll try and get an

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 355 1 answer to that question. I don't know if I

2 have one now.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: I am not an 4 economist, but there must be some method of 5 dealing with that particular issue.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: You're not 7 suggesting we pass the hat or anything like

8 that? 9 (Laughter) 10 Okay. 11 MR. VLADIMER: Okay, so then the 12 last input that I was talking about was energy 13 prices. So the Energy Information 14 Administration, part of DOE, comes up with an 15 annual energy outlook. The outlook describes 16 what energy costs today, to residential 17 consumers, and I think they do industrial and 18 commercial as well, and they also look at what 19 it's going to be like in the future. 20 So when we try to figure out what 21 the cost to consumers is going to be over time 22 in terms of how much energy they use, and how

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 356 1 much they have to pay for it, this is the key 2 source to price that energy consumption. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom 4 again. So I have several questions about the 5 annual energy price study or input into this 6 process. 7 Are average or marginal costs used?

8 MR. VLADIMER: I'm not sure about

9 that. 10 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, well, I 11 would strongly recommend that marginal costs 12 be used, because the presence or absence of 13 efficiency gain in this particular product 14 line, or any for that matter, marginally

15 affects the residential users' bills. It 16 doesn't do so on an average price; it does so 17 on the margins, so savings are marginal 18 savings. 19 Do you know how current the EIA

20 information is that is used as the basis of

21 the estimate? 22 MR. VLADIMER: Yes, we always try

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 357 1 to use the -- I think it's updated almost 2 every year, and we just go and get the latest 3 information. So when we present the 4 preliminary analysis, then whatever the latest

5 data is that's what we use.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Is the cost 7 nationally weighted by population, or is it 8 simply averaged?

9 MR. VLADIMER: I'm not sure about

10 that. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Toby?

12 MR. SWOPE: We can do both. It's 13 nationally weighted by population, and that's 14 what we use normally, in the preliminary 15 analysis that is what we will be doing. If we 16 need to do regional sensitivity analyses later 17 on, we do have it by state. 18 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, let me make 19 a specific point about California. If you 20 were to ask me what PG&E's average residential 21 rate is, I don't know exactly at the moment 22 but I'd guess it's around 16 cents. The

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 358 1 reality is that California has a tiered rate 2 structure, and many customers are paying 28 3 and 30 cents because they are in single-family 4 homes where these products tend to show up. 5 So I think it's important we use 6 marginal rates, and I think it's important we 7 take a look not at the average but at what a 8 more typical effect would be on homeowners.

9 Have we considered environmental 10 effects, or will we consider environmental 11 effects on rate structure, such as cap and

12 trade emissions limitations and so on?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Ari?

14 MR. REEVES: Ari Reeves at D&R. 15 On your question about marginal rates, I've 16 looked at trying to use marginal rates in the 17 past for the same reason that you suggested we 18 use them. But it's been very hard to pin 19 down. Besides, as you said yourself, many 20 customers are paying different marginal rates, 21 so it's much easier just to see what the total 22 revenues were, and divide by the amount of

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 359 1 kilowatt hours of electricity sold. 2 If you have suggestions for where 3 to find marginal rate data, that we could use 4 for the whole country in the preliminary 5 analysis, that would be welcome.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: I would think the

7 EIA would want to look into that. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Do they supply

9 that data? 10 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't know, but 11 I would suggest that average rates give a 12 false indication of what we are really looking

13 for here. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Marginal rates, 15 Toby? 16 MR. SWOPE: I don't have anything 17 for marginal rates, but in terms of impacts of 18 a possible greenhouse gas directive, the EIA 19 releases its forecasts annually, and they tend 20 to update them if a major piece of legislation 21 passes. 22 So when EISA passed in '07, a few

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 360 1 -- a couple of months later EIA released new 2 estimates for their projections. 3 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, thank you. 4 California is moving toward critical peak 5 pricing. And I think other parts of the 6 country with their demand response programs, 7 load management programs, one way or another, 8 are looking at the time of use effect on the 9 cost of electricity production and

10 distribution. 11 So are these prices going to be 12 time-dependent? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Toby? 14 MR. SWOPE: Not that I know of, 15 because one of the aspects that comes into 16 calculating that usage profile, the complexity 17 of trying to figure out when a product is 18 used, and applying the rate that maybe 19 available. I mean if we had input on that we 20 might be able to incorporate that into our 21 calculation, but we don't have that level of 22 detail right now.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 361 1 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, I'd suggest 2 that is no more easy or difficult than trying 3 to develop usage profiles for these products

4 itself. 5 Last, interviews are conducted 6 with manufacturers to try and get information 7 about cost structure and so on. Is there any 8 plan to do interviews with utilities to try 9 and get information about future rate

10 increases?

11 MR. VLADIMER: This is Michael 12 Vladimer. It's a good idea; it's worth 13 pursuing. I don't know if we can commit to 14 anything at this time, but it's definitely a 15 good idea.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Rick? 17 MR. HABBEN: I guess for some of 18 us, maybe, that aren't familiar with the whole 19 utility scheme, could someone give us a clear 20 definition of what average and marginal rates 21 are, and how they are determined and defined? 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Since Gary raised

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 362 1 it, go ahead. 2 MR. FERNSTROM: Sure, the way you 3 get average rates is you take the cost of your 4 bill and you divide by the number of kilowatt 5 hours and you get cents per kilowatt hour. 6 Many utilities don't have a linear 7 rate structure, so you find that for the first 8 block of kilowatt hours it's one price for the 9 second tier, it's a higher price for the third 10 tier; it's a higher price still --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Based on total 12 consumption? 13 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes, based on the 14 accumulating consumption. So energy, 15 additional energy use or energy savings occur 16 on the margin in the highest tier, not at the 17 average. So for example I am in the second 18 tier, which is 20-some cents, so if I 19 eliminate one kilowatt hour of usage from my 20 home it saves me 20 cents, not the average

21 which is 16 or so. 22 MR. HABBEN: So Gary, just a

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 363 1 question, so if you are at 20, some people are 2 maybe at 27, and other people are at 16, so 3 when you want it for the whole population of 4 people wouldn't you want to use the average 5 because that's what it's going to average out 6 to be the total savings for the country? 7 MR. FERNSTROM: If these products 8 were uniformly absolutely uniformly 9 distributed across the population that would 10 probably be true. But I don't think they are. 11 I suspect that larger electric users have a 12 greater preponderance of these types of 13 appliances, and therefore the savings would be 14 greater. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: I was wondering if 16 California or somebody has that data.

17 MR. REEVES: Ari Reeves. 18 Actually I think it's just the opposite. If 19 they were uniformly distributed across the 20 population then everybody's marginal -- and 21 everybody had the same utility bill, 22 everybody's marginal rate would be 20 cents,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 364 1 and the average would still be 16. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: In your comments 3 it would be great if you include this. Go

4 ahead.

5 DR. BENDT: Just for statistics 6 the average of the marginal rates is not the 7 same as the average of the rates. So what 8 makes sense is the national average of each 9 individual marginal rate. 10 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you, Paul. 11 MR. ALBERT: Question for Gary: 12 How do the marginal rates and the time of use 13 rates work with each other? Do they interact? 14 (Laughter) 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe we could

16 have a tutorial at the bar at 9:30. Go ahead. 17 MR. FERNSTROM: Suffice to say 18 it's really complicated. For those customers 19 on time-of-use rates now, and those who are 20 moving towards that, there is a baseline and21 tier structure for the off-peak and the on22 peak period. So you have in effect a marginal

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 365 1 position with your off-peak energy use as well 2 as with your on peak energy use. 3 I don't mean to complicate this 4 with California's complicated rate structure. 5 I'm just trying to suggest that we try and 6 get as realistic an estimate of cost to

7 consumers as we can.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So now we have 9 described analyzing prices, and received some

10 comment on that. 11 MR. VLADIMER: Excellent, thank 12 you so much for all those helpful comments. 13 And now I will hand it off to Toby Swope. 14 MR. SWOPE: Okay, so last time I 15 came up here and gave a presentation we ended 16 up having to take a stretch break. So I am 17 going to hopefully not achieve that same 18 result with this presentation, even though it 19 is the last one of the day. 20 So I'm talking about the shipments 21 analysis and the national impact analysis. 22 And this is the end stage analyses that are

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 366 1 involved. 2 The purpose of the shipments 3 analysis is really to look at the national 4 inventory, so that is all the battery chargers 5 and external power supplies that would be 6 shipped and affected by a possible standard. 7 And we do this over an analysis period, so

8 this is where it differs a little bit from the 9 LCC in that we look at multiple years of 10 shipments to calculate an aggregate energy 11 savings. 12 So the shipments analysis really 13 comes from the inputs of the market 14 assessment. So we have the annual equipment 15 shipments, market growth, lifetime. And then 16 we talked a little bit about this assumption 17 just a few minutes ago. But in the LCC they 18 tend to focus on the impacts on a consumer; in 19 the National Impact Assessment we look at the 20 impacts on the nation. 21 So while we are looking primarily 22 on the residential sector we are looking at

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 367 1 all shipments, especially as I just mentioned 2 products like laptop computers, the impact of 3 a standard will affect those laptops that are 4 used in commercial settings. So we do want to 5 account for those that are shipped. 6 And then the purpose of the 7 National Impact Analysis is to forecast both 8 the national energy savings that would result 9 from a standard, and then compare that to the 10 costs that would be associated with improving 11 the efficiency of those battery chargers and 12 external power supplies. 13 And ultimately our purpose is to 14 identify the candidate standard level that 15 would provide the maximum energy savings. And 16 I will add that we want those savings to be 17 cost effective, so our purpose is not to set a 18 standard way out there, but to have something

19 that is cost effective. 20 And so most of the inputs as you 21 can see are coming from other analyses. Many

22 of them are the same that we would use for the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 368 1 LCC. Electricity prices are also from the EIA. 2 And then the last one, the 3 discount rate, unlike the LCC, for the 4 National Impact Assessment we’re limited to 5 using, or we’re required to use a 3 percent to 6 7 percent discount rate.

7 And so some of our initial 8 assumptions would be that the standard would 9 take effect in 2013; there would be 20 years 10 of shipments; and the way we calculate our 11 national energy savings and the net present 12 value is, we look at all the years until those 13 shipped units for those first 20 years, we 14 look at them until they have all been retired, 15 so removed from the system. 16 Again, using a 3 percent to 7 17 percent discount rate. We are using national 18 average prices for now. We could do some 19 sensitivity analyses later. And then we are 20 not considering any installation, repair or 21 maintenance costs, and no rebound or take-back

22 effect.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 369 1 So this is the layout and the flow 2 of analyses toward the two outputs, and I'm 3 going to go through each of the stages in 4 sections. It looks complicated right now, but 5 hopefully it will make sense after a few more

6 slides.

7 So the first is the calculation of 8 the national energy savings, and what we are 9 doing here is really taking the average energy 10 unit savings, and this is something that comes 11 out of the energy and end use load

12 characterization. It is used in the LCC. But 13 then we are multiplying it against a national 14 inventory, as I just discussed. 15 So the first calculation, that 16 average in energy savings, what we are looking

17 for is the distribution of efficiencies for 18 the shipments, both in the base case and in 19 the standards case, and the unit energy 20 consumption at each CSL, and we will get what 21 we call the average unit energy consumption, 22 and we do that again for the base case, the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 370 1 standards case. The difference would be the 2 average unit energy savings. 3 We then multiply that against the 4 national inventory, and that gives us our 5 national energy savings. 6 And then the next stage is 7 calculating the net present value, and what we 8 are doing here is converting those national 9 energy savings that we just calculated into 10 dollar savings by multiplying against the 11 electricity price, and then comparing that to 12 the national consumer economic impact, and 13 that is the cost of improving efficiency for 14 an average unit multiplied against the 15 national inventory. 16 We then take those two values, 17 combine them and discount them to the present 18 day value. So the first stage is calculation 19 of the national energy cost savings. The 20 second is a similar process to calculating the 21 average unit energy savings is the average 22 unit -- average unit improvement costs,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 371 1 multiplied against the national inventory, 2 which gives us our national consumer economic 3 impact. 4 And then the final stage is 5 combining them with the discount rate to get 6 our national net present value.

7 And that concludes the national 8 impact assessment analysis. Are there any 9 questions?

10 MR. HABBEN: This is Rick. When 11 you have average unit energy savings is that 12 per product class that you guys are going to 13 define such as laptops or cell phones or 14 shavers or whatever, each one of those would 15 have their own formula, right? You don't 16 aggregate all the products together into one

17 deal? 18 MR. SWOPE: Well, our hope is to 19 be able to do it for each individual product 20 application. We may have to group similar 21 products together. It depends on the level of 22 detail we have as far as our input data.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 372 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 2 questions? Paul. 3 DR. BENDT: Yes, does the 4 national impact analysis include anything

5 other than dollars? Does it include for 6 example an environmental assessment that says

7 we also reduce the amount of SO2 in the 8 atmosphere when we consume less electricity? 9 Are there other impacts evaluated other than 10 just a dollar net present value?

11 MR. SWOPE: I believe those are 12 calculated in -- I'm trying to remember the 13 name, maybe Vic or Michael Kido can -- but we 14 do calculate the emissions impacts.

15 MR. VLADIMER: Michael Vladimer. 16 Yes, there is a few -- flip back if you are 17 interested on slide #29, all the way in the 18 beginning, there are a number of different

19 additional assessments. And one of those is 20 just as you named it, the environmental

21 assessment. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Other questions?

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 373 1 Gary?

2 MR. FERNSTROM: I realize this is 3 out of order. I have a couple of quick 4 comments that go back to electric rates. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, we are going 6 to provide an opportunity once we finish this 7 segment for anybody to make final and 8 supplemental remarks they wish to make in 9 closing. 10 Any other comments or thoughts 11 related to national impact analysis? 12 Okay, so now as I said there is an 13 opportunity for people to raise other issues 14 they wish to raise at this point, and so we 15 will start with Gary. 16 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay, two quick 17 things going back to rates. I suggested that 18 interviews with utilities might want to be 19 conducted. Utilities are typically state 20 regulated. California has a requirement that 21 a large portion of new electric resources come 22 from renewables, and that is undoubtedly going

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 374 1 to have a rate impact and because that is not 2 a federal requirement that might have not be 3 captured in the EIA forecast, so I think there 4 might be things going on at the state level 5 that would give a better picture of impending 6 rate impacts than what the EIA would 7 necessarily get. 8 The other thing goes back to the 9 question about wouldn't everybody's marginal 10 rate in effect be the average rate. And I 11 want to be really clear about this. Paul had 12 mentioned that the average of the marginal 13 rates is not the same as the average. So to 14 take my house for example, I said I would 15 probably be saving energy at the rate of 16 around 22 cents a kilowatt hour as opposed to 17 the average of 16. Well, everybody that falls 18 into my circumstance would similarly be seeing 19 an average of the marginal rates that would be 20 higher than the average rate. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Any other remarks, 22 issues, final comments that people wish to

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 375 1 raise here now that we are closing this 2 meeting? Please?

3 MR. GEORGE: This is Santhosh 4 George. And just a final comment. And once 5 again I don't know if many of you know 6 actually in the last two or three months there 7 was actually a paradigm shift in the toy 8 industry, the leather industry and in the 9 textile industry. There were a lot of 10 regulations; there were a lot of compliances 11 that the government put forth. And exactly, I 12 just look at this, and this is what happened a 13 year and a half or two years back with them. 14 There was new legislation. They wanted to 15 influence it. And they way they brought it 16 about, they tried first, they had a lot of 17 hiccups. They went back, got their acts 18 together, tried again, and today it is very

19 successful. 20 Once again the point I'm trying to 21 bring forth is, what they realized is, there 22 should not be any gray areas; it should be

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 376 1 black and white. Because what happens when 2 it's gray there is a lot of misinterpretations 3 and things fall through the cracks, and people 4 take upon themselves to interpret things 5 differently, and that actually adds to 6 obfuscation and big confusion. 7 They also, what they tried to do 8 is they tried the two to three tier approach. 9 Obviously, if I am manufacturing, I don't 10 sell it on the street. I go down to the 11 largest retailers in America and at the end of 12 the day they sell it to the consumers. 13 So they made a point. They 14 actually got champions for their causes. 15 That's why they went ahead with it, the way 16 they implemented it. They said, listen, we 17 understand that we come up with the rules. We 18 are very technical, but it doesn't mean that 19 the manufacturer is a technical person. And 20 he obviously is then the end person who is 21 actually buying it from I don't know if it's a 22 manufacturer in China, Taiwan or in the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 377 1 Midwest. 2 So what they tried to do is, they 3 tried to educate all the large retailers. 4 They got Wal-Mart, Radio Shack, Sears, the 5 whole big 10, 20, 30 guys who actually are the 6 largest retailers in America who can have much 7 leverage with their suppliers, they told them, 8 this is what we are actually planning to 9 implement. This is the guideline we are 10 trying to do. It's not tomorrow; it's not

11 next week. 12 Actually that's what happened. 13 First the ex-president -- prior president, 14 George Bush, actually signed the law. It was 15 supposed to go into effect in two months and 16 nobody knew about it. And then they said, oh, 17 the law is going to pass in two months and you 18 are supposed to be compliant. And everybody 19 said, wait a second, nobody can do that. Then 20 they said, okay, fine, we understand, we are 21 going to do this one more year from now, and 22 they got a temporary injunction.

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 378 1 Similarly what we are asking -- 2 that's step A they did. Step B is every 3 testing company in America, and obviously they 4 have branches in Taiwan, in Bangkok, in China, 5 so at the end of the day any electronic 6 product I don't test it, the lab tests for me, 7 and they were educated by the government. 8 They told them these are what our rules are. 9 When somebody is coming to you and asking for 10 toy complying to lead and thalites for example 11 I'm giving you. For here it can be for an 12 EPS. When somebody says, is this EPS 13 compliant, or this a BC compliant for the 14 American standards, that's all I need to do. 15 I don't need to be technical in trying to tell 16 them, listen, that means this is -- this has 17 to be this product and this thing, and if it 18 passes this then this is compliant, or else it 19 is not. I don't have to make the judgment

20 call. 21 The people who are actually 22 implementing, the people who are technical,

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 379 1 and that is what they are paid for, and that 2 is the main reason they are there, we pay them 3 so that they can test it, and they have to

4 know when -- and with lead -- with textiles

5 and with the electronics that is what is 6 exactly happening. It's less confusion. 7 Some of us, we are intimidated in 8 trying to talk to the government agency in 9 trying to find answers. Oh yes you do have 10 FAQ, nice things to read about sometimes. 11 It's more item specific; it's not a very 12 generic question. It's not a very general 13 question. It's item specific. 14 But if I have a question I know 15 who to turn to. Obviously I do ask the CPSC, 16 CPSC.gov. They have the website up. But even 17 if I have to ask my account manager in the 18 lab, they know the answers. Or if I ask the 19 person -- and they, the same translation, the 20 same rubric, the same language, they actually 21 -- the manufacturers in China, manufacturers 22 in Taiwan, manufacturers in Thailand, know

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 380 1 exactly what U.S. laws or what European laws 2 are as far as with European it's CE, and the 3 regulations. They know exactly what it is, 4 and we don't have to teach anybody, and we can 5 actually get that. 6 So I guess education is primary. 7 One of the things that I hope at the end of 8 the day if it comes down to. 9 Number two is obviously the 10 language. If I can say so, not to offend 11 anybody, but as a simple stupid person's 12 language, not a lawyer's language. 13 This is what has to be done. They 14 brought up the toys, they did exactly that. 15 They made it very confusing. They said 16 anything any child could get hold of is 17 considered a child item. So somebody said, 18 listen, a child can actually walk into Toys 19 'R' Us and pick up a can of Coke or Pepsi. 20 Pepsi doesn't become a toy. 21 So then they came back trying to 22 put some common sense into the language. And

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 381 1 they said we don't need one paragraph to 2 define something. Tell us in one line what 3 you want. Tell us what you want and we will 4 try to make it happen. 5 So I really request everybody, I 6 mean you are all very knowledgeable, and you 7 know what you guys have to do. So kindly make 8 it simple, and make sure that you present it 9 in a way that we will likely succeed, because 10 that is the whole idea why we are here for,

11 not to confuse even further and further. So I 12 really request that. Thank you very much. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very

14 much. 15 Wayne. 16 MR. MORRIS: Thanks, Doug. 17 I'd like to thank the department 18 for the amount of time that they have 19 obviously put into a lot of material for us, 20 and to the consultants and to Navigant and D&R 21 for I think a very thorough presentation; a 22 very complicated subject; a lot of material in

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 382 1 the framework directive, and in the technical 2 support documents. 3 And I really appreciate the fact 4 that they were placed up on the web 5 sufficiently to allow us time to go through

6 them. I think that is wonderful. 7 The only other thing I would say 8 or request is, I know the very difficult 9 schedule that you are under, I really do. But 10 as Rick indicated before, I think the 11 opportunity to try and get comments in next 12 week is going to be extremely difficult for us 13 to do. And although we might be able to get 14 some preliminary type comments in to you, I 15 think that any type of more technical data and 16 information is really going to take us some 17 time around mid-August to get information to 18 you. 19 So I beg your indulgence while we 20 try and gather up people that are in travel 21 and working on other things and trying to stay 22 alive with their companies and to deal around

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 383 1 summer holidays and other things. It really 2 is a struggle to try and get comments in in a 3 week's time, so thank you. 4 MR. FERNSTROM: Following up on 5 Wayne's comments, I think this has been a 6 really productive framework meeting. And I'd 7 like to thank Vic and the Department of Energy

8 and all of the consultants and our 9 facilitator, Doug, and all of the 10 contributors, especially for the opportunity 11 to present what PG&E has done with the 12 California Energy Commission, appreciate 13 everybody's work today, thanks. 14 MR. ALBERT: Although both Gary 15 and Wayne already beat me to it, I'd also want

16 to be able -- and I don't think it could hurt 17 to repeat these same sentiments -- I think the 18 Department and the consultants did an 19 excellent job, an extremely thorough and 20 detailed analysis of the issue. 21 I recognize how complicated it is, 22 particularly with the legislative constraints

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 384 1 that the department is under. 2 I am particularly grateful for the 3 fact that there is a great emphasis to 4 concentrate on real energy savings of these 5 battery charging systems specifically in EPSs 6 as it relates to what the consumer impact is. 7 Recognizing also at the same time

8 that there is two other constraints that are 9 sort of not really talked about very much, and

10 the fact is that we are concerned as 11 manufacturers in having as harmonized 12 requirements across jurisdictions, because as 13 global manufacturers it becomes extremely

14 difficult for us to fulfill two sets of 15 disparate requirements, or multiple sets of 16 disparate requirements. 17 So that is going to be I think one

18 of the considerations we would have in terms 19 of asking the department to consider one 20 approach or another is also how it's going to 21 -- how interleaved with other jurisdictions.

22 And in addition the effect of the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 385 1 preexisting regulations, particularly when it 2 comes to the coverage of EPSs in California, 3 that covers a broader scope that it does 4 currently under the DOE requirements. 5 So anyway those are two additional

6 considerations that I think need to be baked 7 in, and they may in fact run contrary to the 8 overall objective of coming up with the most 9 accurate assessment of energy usage and energy 10 savings. 11 So thanks again for everything you 12 guys have done. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Rick.

14 MR. HABBEN: I also want to thank 15 you guys. You did an excellent job laying all 16 this out with the graphs and the flowcharts. 17 It definitely made a big difference in 18 understanding it. 19 One comment, or I guess one 20 question I do have is going back to the 21 payback period analysis, on slide 176, I guess 22 I still am -- and maybe you guys can't give

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 386 1 the detail -- but what constitutes this is a 2 payback and what constitutes this doesn't 3 payback. If the product lifecycle is let's 4 say an average of five years for this product 5 and then it goes in the dumpster, and the cost 6 of making it efficient is more than you are 7 going to save in energy in that five years, is 8 it -- does it get thrown out? What are the 9 parameters around this? 10 MR. VLADIMER: Sure, great 11 question. Very simple answer: everything is a 12 comparison against the baselines. So you look 13 at how much you would pay in baseline case, 14 CSL-0. You'd look at how much you'd pay at a 15 higher level that costs $5 between the 16 purchase price and the energy for CSL-0, and 17 it only cost $4 at a higher level, including 18 purchase price and energy, then you'd save a 19 dollar. That's the payback that we focus on. 20 And if you have any other questions, I'm 21 happy to talk afterwards. 22 MR. HABBEN: Okay, just so I'm

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 387 1 clear let me give an example. So if it costs 2 $4 to increase the efficiency of this 3 particular appliance, and I'm going to save $3 4 worth of electricity over the lifecycle of the 5 product, then the determination would be that 6 it would not be feasible to do this particular 7 thing. Am I correct in that assumption, or 8 are there other factors that come into play 9 that says, well, for the benefit of the whole 10 thing we'd still pursue it?

11 MR. VLADIMER: Economic 12 justification -- this is Michael Vladimer -- 13 economic justification is one of the criteria; 14 it's not everything. But in the example you 15 gave it was a $4 increase for a $3 return, the 16 savings would be negative, and you would be

17 hard to make an economic case in that

18 situation.

19 MR. PETROLATI: You would be hard 20 pressed to give examples where we have gone 21 beyond that economic decision and said, no, we

22 still want to set a standard even if it's not

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 388 1 economically feasible. So that's a very rare

2 instance. 3 MR. HABBEN: Okay, that's what I 4 was looking for. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Mr. 6 Petrolati. And so from my perspective I want 7 to thank all of you for being here for your 8 good humor and your intelligence and your 9 endurance, all three. And I'm going to turn 10 it back to Vic for closing remarks.

11 Please fill out the evaluation 12 form. It's a part of your packet. It only 13 takes a few seconds to do. The department 14 reads them carefully. To Vic Petrolati. 15 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, first of 16 all I just want to thank everybody for their 17 comments today. It has been extremely 18 helpful. This has been a very long day I'm 19 sure for all of us. I really appreciate you 20 guys sticking in there for the whole period. 21 And thank you very much for all of your 22 comments concerning our presentations and the

### (202) 234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 389 1 amount of work. We really appreciate it on 2 our end as well, and we certainly hope we can 3 continue to work with you in this process. 4 And we are certainly expecting to get results 5 that we basically have achieved through all of

6 the stakeholder comments that we have

7 received. 8 So again thank you for sticking 9 with us today. Thank you. 10 (Whereupon at 5:07 p.m. the proceeding in the

11 above-entitled matter was 12 adjourned)

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166:17 187:8 195:7 247:12 259:16 278:8 consumer2:6 7:9

43:8,10,14 58:5 66:21 67:1,3,20 103:17 104:6,8 107:17 110:15 113:22 114:18 128:13 131:22 179:15 195:3,19 201:5,6 212:6 216:8 220:18,18 220:22 221:2,8,14 223:5 224:12 225:5,15 233:8 235:4 237:11 238:18 241:1 243:2,9,20,20,21 250:12 253:2 260:21 270:22 285:7,18 286:22 289:1,6,14 305:7 309:20,22 311:14 312:9,10 328:2,2 328:8 337:11 344:18 345:9 346:11 347:6 348:1,2,8 350:18 351:7,8 352:14,19 354:11 366:18 370:12 371:2 384:6 consumers 54:5

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101:3 converge 91:16 conversation 12:1 conversations

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108:10 128:16 308:6 341:6 342:22 convert 66:19 68:9

107:15 converting 370:8 convinced 37:8

48:18 cooled 269:1 coordinated 337:8 coordinates 213:8 coordination

175:18 cord 334:5 cordless 201:11

334:6,22 cord-cordless

291:13 core 297:16,17 cores 297:12 corner 56:22 corporate 115:2 Corporation 2:5

7:16 corporations

223:14 correct25:18 27:20

28:7 85:17 120:5 142:21 147:4 167:1 184:1 248:4 252:13,14 266:21 299:10 301:10 345:16 387:7 correctly28:17

84:5 113:11 145:21 238:14 275:18 303:16 correlate 187:21 correlated 184:21 correlating 188:2 corresponding

31:9 corrosion 124:10 cost 3:19 10:16

33:10 167:19 183:22 210:5 220:13 232:20 234:11 236:13 237:2,10 238:12 243:14 244:6,19 289:7 302:22 303:5 309:3 310:21 311:10,12 312:4,6 313:9 314:15 315:3,10 326:1,14 327:11 327:13,20,22 330:2 333:4 337:13 342:7 343:18 346:5,7,19 347:5 354:12 355:21 357:6 360:9 361:7 362:3 365:6 367:17,19 370:13,19 386:5 386:17 costed 281:20 costless 285:22 costly 341:20 costs 173:1 220:18

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286:13 311:18 315:11 324:12,14 328:14,15 334:20 344:3 Council 1:17 Counsel 8:2 count4:6 236:20

236:21 258:12 country 328:9

359:4 360:6 363:6 couple 25:14 38:20

39:16 42:8 48:7 55:12 82:4 139:6 169:7,20 172:16 191:4 208:20 213:12 222:18 233:15 299:6 303:10 323:13 360:1 373:3 coupling 125:21 courier 15:14 course 33:21 35:19

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34:20 55:19 199:1 199:13 279:16 294:17 coverage 20:20

173:11 385:2 covered 198:2

199:1 279:21 295:16 350:22 covering 16:21

30:12 covers 87:1 151:18

385:3 Covington 2:10 CPSC 379:15 CPSC.gov 379:16 cracks 376:3 cradle 103:16

107:9 117:2 250:18,20 cradles 117:5

128:13 162:17 261:4 crazy 303:5 create 91:6 302:5 created 27:11 49:5

86:22 creates 314:22 creating 291:1 credit294:6 354:10 creditable 159:13 181:6 200:20 criteria 31:11 40:4

71:7 108:15 110:2 119:22 120:8,14 122:7,13 140:2,7 285:5 291:3 292:2 304:15,16,18,19 306:2,6,13 317:9 344:9 387:13 criterion 140:9

141:2 284:1 critical40:9 251:10

252:3 340:10 360:4 cross 179:22 crowded4:21 crunch 45:9 CSL 369:20 CSLs 316:13,14,18

317:3 319:8 324:10,19,21 338:4 341:8,17 346:7 CSL-0 316:16

323:11,18,19 329:10,13 330:8 331:7,21 333:9 344:19 345:4 346:6,14 386:14 386:16 CSL-1 330:16

333:10 CSL-3 329:20 cued47:13 cuing 11:8 cumulative 339:22 curiosity 349:1 current 18:8 22:18

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166:2,18 174:12 174:15 183:19,22 189:5 247:1 253:18 254:7 255:19,20,22 256:16 257:6 D D 137:22 292:15 Dan 8:3 DANIEL 2:10 dare 277:1 Darnell214:19 dashed 129:6 data 32:2,13 54:19

90:8,15 100:21 101:15 120:9,19 152:1 156:13,15 156:17 159:12,19 178:18 179:8,11 182:1,4,5 188:20 207:5,11 208:17 209:4,14,19 210:2 210:4,9,12,17,20 211:4,5,19 212:5 213:1 214:8,16,22 215:11 218:7,14 218:15,20,21 222:3 223:14 224:2 229:11 257:18,19,20,22 273:19 314:14 316:22 317:3,13 322:17 323:1 324:18,20,21 326:2 327:11 329:7,20 338:17 340:9,16,19 341:1 342:6,7,10 357:5 359:3,9 363:16 371:22 382:15 databases 259:4,8 dataset 320:6 323:4 date 15:15 16:5

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357:7,13 363:3,9 363:20 portability216:8 portable 255:17 portion 50:6 141:11 191:2 321:5 373:21 portions 161:3

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