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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR 

 PACKAGED TERMINAL AIR CONDITIONERS 

 AND HEAT PUMPS 

 + + + + + 

 PUBLIC MEETING 

 + + + + + 

 MONDAY 

 MARCH 18, 2013 

 + + + + + 

 The Public Meeting convened in the 

Forrestal Building, Room 8E-089, 1000 

Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, DC, at 

9:00 a.m, Doug Brookman, Facilitator, 

presiding. 

PRESENT 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator, Pacific 

Solutions, 

 Inc. 

JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy 

RONALD MAJETTE, Department of Energy 

JENNIFER TIEDEMAN, Department of Energy 
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ALSO PRESENT 

KARIM AMRANE, AHRI 

DONALD BRUNDAGE, Southern Company 

JON LEMMOND, AHRI 

JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness 

 Project 

DAVID RANSOM, McDermott Will & Emery 

GREG ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

KNUTE SVENSON, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 

RUSTY THARP, Goodman Manufacturers 

DETLEF WESTPHALEN, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 

YOLANDA WILLIAMS, General Electric Appliances 

 and Lighting 

BINGYI YU, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS 

Welcome and Introductions, Opening Remarks, 

 Doug Brookman 4 

Introduction and Rulemaking Process Overview, 

 Ron Majette 9 

Text Procedure Issues, Knute Svenson 11 

Market and Technology Assessment and 

 Screening Analysis, Knute Svenson 38 

Engineering Analysis, Knute Svenson 45 

Markup Analysis, Energy Use Analysis, 

 Bingyi Yu 65 

Life-Cycle Costs and Payback Period 

 Analysis, Bingyi Yu 75 

Shipments Analysis and National Impact 

 Analysis, Bingyi Yu 86 

NOPR Analyses, Bingyi Yu and 

 Knute Svenson 93 

Other Issues and Closing Remarks, 

 Ron Majette 107 

Adjourn 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:02 a.m. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning 

4 everyone. Welcome. This is the U.S. 

5 Department of Energy's Public Meeting on 

6 Energy Conservation Standards for Packaged 

7 Terminal Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps. 

8 Today is Monday, March 18, 2013 here in the 

9 Forrestal Building at the Department of 

10 Energy. I'm so glad you could join us this 

11 morning. 

12 My name is Doug Brookman, Public 

13 Solutions in Baltimore. We typically start 

14 off by doing introductions. 

15 Actually, I made a mistake 

16 already. We're going to have welcoming 

17 remarks from Ron Majette. 

18 MR. MAJETTE: I just wanted to say 

19 good morning to everyone and I hope everybody 

20 had a safe flight in and you got through our 

21 snow storm without any problems. That's 

22 about it. I expect this to go nice and 
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1 smooth and friendly and I'm going to turn it 

2 back over to Doug. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 Introductions then. Your name, organization, 

5 affiliation. Looks like you know what to do 

6 with the microphone. 

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yolanda Williams 

8 from G.E. Appliances. 

9 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

10 Goodman Manufacturing. 

11 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, 

12 Appliance Standards Awareness Project. 

13 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, Air14 Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration 

15 Institute. 

16 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond, AHRI. 

17 MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, 

18 Southern Company. 

19 MS. TIEDEMAN: Jennifer Tiedeman, 

20 DOE General Counsel. 

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, 

22 DOE. 
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef 

2 Westphalen, Navigant Consulting. 

3 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, 

4 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. 

5 MR. YU: Bingyi Yu, Lawrence 

6 Berkeley National Laboratory. 

7 MR. SVENSON: Knute Svenson, 

8 Navigant Consulting. 

9 MS. EDWARDS: Brenda Edwards, 

10 Department of Energy. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you care to 

12 introduce yourself? 

13 MR. RANSOM: Dave Ransom from 

14 McDermott Will & Emery. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. So glad 

16 you could make it here this morning and the 

17 snow started late rather than early, so not 

18 many people got tangled in bad weather. 

19 I'm going to do a very brief 

20 agenda review. Following this agenda review, 

21 there's an opportunity for anybody that 

22 wishes to do so to make brief summary 
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1 statements about issues that matter to them 

2 here at the outset. And then moving from 

3 there on there will be an introduction and 

4 rulemaking process overview. And as 

5 reflected in the agenda from there, test 

6 procedure issues and then market technology 

7 assessment and screening analysis, then 

8 engineering analysis. 

9 Somewhere, mid-morning, 11 o'clock 

10 or so, we'll take a break. And following the 

11 break, markup analysis, energy use analysis, 

12 life-cycle costs and payment period analysis, 

13 shipments analysis, and national impact 

14 analysis, and then NOPR analyses. 

15 Round about 12:30 or so whenever 

16 we get there, other issues and then 

17 opportunity for individuals to raise one more 

18 time anything that you think we haven't 

19 covered sufficiently during the course of the 

20 meeting today. And then we'll have closing 

21 remarks. 

22 So that's the plan for today. We 
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1 anticipate that we'll be working through the 

2 morning. We will probably pause, we'll 

3 probably end before lunch today, even though 

4 it may be 1 o'clock or so. We'll see. 

5 I'd ask for your consideration. 

6 If you would, please, speak one at a time. 

7 Please say your name for the record each time 

8 you speak. Keep the focus here if you would. 

9 Cell phones on silent. Side bars limited, 

10 please. You're already used to turning the 

11 microphones on and off. Please be concise. 

12 Share the air time. I'll be queuing 

13 individuals by name as best I can to speak. 

14 I also wish to encourage follow-on comments. 

15 Sometimes the back and forth is very useful 

16 for the Department as it reviews this. 

17 Did I say there will be a complete 

18 transcript of this meeting available? And 

19 that will be available in the span of a week 

20 or so. 

21 Webinar participants, welcome. 

22 Glad you could join us. There are many of 
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1 you online. Glad to have you with us. 

2 Please keep your telephones on mute and if 

3 you would raise your hand if you wish to 

4 participate or join the conversation, that's 

5 been working most of the time. So we'll see 

6 if we can get you into the conversation here. 

7 So questions and comments before 

8 we begin? Okay, so let's begin. Do you want 

9 to start us off with some introduction and 

10 overview? 

11 MR. MAJETTE: All right, good 

12 morning once again. What I want to do today 

13 is just make sure that we have all of our 

14 boundaries and processes and procedures in 

15 place. 

16 The Department of Energy Appliance 

17 and Commercial Equipment Standards Program 

18 within the Office of Energy Efficiency and 

19 Renewable Energy's Building Technologies 

20 Program develops and promulgates test 

21 procedures and energy conservation standards 

22 for certain consumer appliances and consumer 
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1 equipment. The process for developing 

2 standards involves analysis, public notice, 

3 and comment and a consultation with 

4 interested parties. That would be you guys. 

5 Interested parties includes 

6 manufacturers, purchasers, energy 

7 conservation and environmental advocates, 

8 state and federal agencies, and any groups or 

9 individuals with an interest in these 

10 standards and test procedures. 

11 The purpose of today's document, 

12 the framework document for packaged terminal 

13 air conditioners and packaged terminal heat 

14 pumps, is to determine whether the energy 

15 conservation standards and the procedures and 

16 analytical approaches we're thinking about 

17 using are fair, valid, questionable, whatever 

18 the case may be. 

19 So we're using this time here for 

20 this public meeting to engage the 

21 stakeholders, get your comments, and for DOE 

22 to listen and learn as much as possible. 
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1 Thank you. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So I guess we'll 

3 proceed with the presented material. First, 

4 we're going to hear from Knute Svenson. 

5 MR. SVENSON: Okay, I guess we'll 

6 start here at regulatory history. First off, 

7 DOE gets its authority from the Energy Policy 

8 Act of 1992 which established energy 

9 conservation standards for PTACs and PTHPs 

10 and corresponding to levels in ASHRAE 

11 standard 90.1, 1992. 

12 EPCA, as amended, requires that if 

13 ASHRAE modifies their standard levels, DOE 

14 must either adopt these levels or determine 

15 that a more stringent standard is warranted, 

16 resulting in significant energy savings, 

17 whether the level is technologically feasible 

18 or economically justified. 

19 DOE last published a final rule 

20 for PTACs on October 7, 2008, adopting more 

21 stringent standards for the equipment class 

22 in response to 1999 levels. 
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1 So DOE set standards for PTACs in 

2 terms of the energy efficiency ratio, EER, 

3 for cooling efficiency for PTACs and PTHPs 

4 and COP, or coefficient of performance, for 

5 heating efficiency. 

6 The Energy Independence and 

7 Security Act of 2007 amended EPCA to mandate 

8 that no later than six years after the 

9 issuance of any final rule amending 

10 efficiency standards, DOE must publish a 

11 notice of determination that either higher 

12 standards are not needed -- or notice of 

13 determination that higher standards are not 

14 needed or a NOPR proposing amended standards. 

15 Because of this requirement, DOE is required 

16 to publish its determination or a NOPR no 

17 later than October 7, 2014, six years after 

18 the publication of the 2008 final rule. 

19 This is a proposed timeline for 

20 the rulemaking. The framework document will 

21 be published in February 2013. And so 

22 projected we have a preliminary analysis 
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1 coming out November 2013 with a NOPR in 

2 October 2014. And then a final rule about a 

3 year later and the compliance date is three 

4 years after that. 

5 Here are the seven factors that 

6 DOE will consider in amending any standards. 

7 It's our usual seven factors you see in a 

8 lot of these rulemakings: economic impact on 

9 consumers and manufacturers; lifetime 

10 operating cost savings compared to increased 

11 cost for the product; total projected energy 

12 savings; impact on utility or performance; 

13 impact of any lessening of competition; need 

14 for national energy conservation; and other 

15 factors the Secretary may considers relevant. 

16 And on the right hand is all the typical 

17 analyses that we'll use to cover these 

18 factors. 

19 These are the definitions for the 

20 equipment that we're dealing with today. 

21 Packaged terminal air conditioner is a "wall 

22 sleeve and a separate unencased combination 
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1 of heating and cooling assemblies specified 

2 by the builder and intended for mounting 

3 through the wall. It includes a prime source 

4 of refrigeration, separable outdoor louvers, 

5 forced ventilation, and heating availability 

6 by builder's choice of hot water, steam, or 

7 electricity." 

8 And packaged terminal heat pump is 

9 a "packaged terminal air conditioner that 

10 utilizes reverse cycle refrigeration as its 

11 prime heat source and should have 

12 supplementary heat source available to 

13 builders with the choice of hot water, steam, 

14 or electric resistant heat." 

15 These equipment classes divide 

16 into standard and non-standard size. So 

17 standard size of a wall opening of greater 

18 than 16 inches, have a height greater than 16 

19 inches or a width greater than 42 inches and 

20 a cross sectional area of over 670 square 

21 inches. And non-standard size will be less 

22 than that. 
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1 So I think the first thing we'll 

2 talk about will be test procedures. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage. 

4 MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, 

5 Southern Company. Just a question on the 

6 schedule you showed a minute ago. Would 

7 whether or not the Department accepts or 

8 rejects the ASHRAE efficiency levels have any 

9 impact on that schedule, or would they just 

10 go through with the same schedule and accept 

11 the ASHRAE? 

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: The schedule will 

13 be the same regardless. 

14 MR. BRUNDAGE: Thank you. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky. 

16 Thank you. Back to Knute. 

17 MR. SVENSON: So we'll start off 

18 with test procedures used. DOE will also be 

19 conducting a test procedure while making a 

20 concurrence with the standards rulemaking. 

21 So we're going to cover a few of these issues 

22 right now. 
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1 The current DOE test procedure for 

2 PTACs and PTHPs is AHRI 310/380-2004, 

3 omitting Section 5.6. This is a recent 

4 addition with the 2012 final rule. Section 

5 5.6 deals with the AHRI tolerances within 

6 that test procedure. 

7 And then under the umbrella of 

8 that test procedure, the cooling mode ratings 

9 are determined with ASHRAE Standard 16 and 

10 ASHRAE Standard 37 and heating mode ratings 

11 are determined in accordance with ASHRAE 

12 Standard 58. 

13 So a few regulations with regards 

14 to test procedure. EPCA requires that DOE 

15 conducts an evaluation of test procedures 

16 every seven years, and to either prescribe 

17 amended test procedures or publish a notice 

18 of determination in the Federal Register to 

19 not amend the test procedure. 

20 DOE last evaluated its test 

21 procedures in accordance with this 

22 requirement in 2006, and so will do so in 
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1 parallel with the energy conservation 

2 standards rulemaking. 

3 So DOE identified five potential 

4 issues regarding the PTAC/PTHP test procedure 

5 and those are break-in time, sealing between 

6 wall sleeve and dividing wall, water in 

7 condensate pan, barometric pressure 

8 adjustment, ASHRAE Standard 16 versus ASHRAE 

9 Standard 37. And we'll get into more details 

10 in the next slides and opportunities for 

11 comment. 

12 So the first issue I'd like to 

13 talk about is the break-in time. Break-in 

14 refers to the operation of equipment prior to 

15 testing to cause preliminary wear on the 

16 compressor and its components to improve 

17 measured performance. 

18 DOE currently does not have a 

19 standard break-in time for PTACs and PTHPs. 

20 Adequate break-in time through its retest 

21 studies may depend on time and the ambient 

22 temperature. So breaking in equipment at 
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1 room temperature at 75 degrees may take 

2 longer than breaking in equipment at elevated 

3 temperatures, say around 95 degrees. 

4 That brings us to our first 

5 comment. DOE requests detailed test data 

6 supporting the selection of specific break-in 

7 time necessary for this equipment to achieve 

8 a steady state performance level. How much 

9 improvement in efficiency can typically be 

10 expected using a full break-in period versus 

11 no break-in period. How the break-in period 

12 varies with break-in conditions such as 

13 temperature. 

14 And DOE also requests information 

15 regarding the test burden associated with a 

16 given break-in period and approaches that may 

17 accelerate break-in using elevated ambient 

18 room temperatures. DOE also requests comment 

19 on whether a break-in period should be 

20 optional or required, and whether break-in 

21 parameters such as the minimum and/or maximum 

22 break-in times and/or temperatures should be 
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1 specified. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So that comment 

3 box, a lot of content there. I hope we can 

4 get quite a bit of information at this point. 

5 Rusty, you look like you're ready. 

6 MR. THARP: I don't have anything 

7 specific on this. Most of my experience is 

8 in residential product and I know with scroll 

9 compressors, a 72-hour break-in period is 

10 pretty common. I'm not positive since most 

11 of this product typically uses rotary 

12 compressors. I'm not sure what the break-in 

13 period for rotary compressors is. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 

15 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

16 I guess I have a more fundamental question. 

17 What's the purpose of the break-in period for 

18 this proceeding, for this rulemaking? 

19 MR. SVENSON: Well, I guess 

20 there's been a question on NOPR commercial 

21 equipment. DOE made optional 20-hour break22 in period and I guess it goes in line with 
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1 the way those things are tested. That you run 

2 the equipment for a certain time before you 

3 start the official test procedure in order to 

4 achieve some kind of maximum efficiency 

5 level. 

6 MR. AMRANE: So my understanding, 

7 it's tested with enforcement. It has nothing 

8 to do with this rulemaking, right? I mean 

9 when DOE wants to do an enforcement testing, 

10 DOE will have to test according to -- we'll 

11 have to use this break-in period? Is this 

12 what it is? I mean it is not something that 

13 manufacturers will be required to do anyway, 

14 right? I just want to understand. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky. 

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: We're just taking 

17 comment on whether or not this break-in 

18 period is something the industry feels is 

19 reasonable or not for the test procedure in 

20 general. Once it's in the test procedure, it 

21 gets used for every purpose, not just 

22 enforcement. Just taking comment on the 
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1 break-in period. Feel free -- if you have a 

2 comment, that would be great. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't get your 

4 name as you were introduced previously. Say 

5 your name, please? 

6 MR. RANSOM: David Ransom, 

7 McDermott, Will & Emery. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have a 

9 comment? 

10 MR. RANSOM: I have no comment. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So no 

12 comments on whether break-in time is 

13 necessary, nor how much improvement the 

14 break-in period might afford. 

15 Yes, Karim. 

16 MR. AMRANE: If I may, yes, a 

17 break-in time is probably necessary. I mean 

18 I think this is typically used, you know, a 

19 certification program when we test product. 

20 And we'll get back to DOE with a specific 

21 recommendation on time. I just wanted to 

22 understand why are we asking the question and 
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1 why the break-in period is part of the test 

2 procedure. My opinion, it's something that 

3 should be outside of the test procedure. But 

4 that's fine. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. As you can 

6 see, typically we would receive some comments 

7 surrounding the test burden per unit 

8 associated with an approach like this. Any 

9 comments on testing burden? No additional 

10 comments on this comment box. Okay. 

11 MR. SVENSON: So I'll talk about 

12 the second and third issues. The second 

13 issue is the sealing between the wall sleeve 

14 of the PTAC and the test facility dividing 

15 wall. This sealing will prevent air/heat 

16 leakage from the outdoor test chamber into 

17 the indoor test chamber external to the PTAC 

18 wall sleeve. Test labs don't usually build 

19 PTAC wall sleeves into the dividing wall. 

20 However, in the field, PTACs are usually 

21 installed like in hotels and motels with the 

22 sealant around the wall sleeve. 
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1 The third issue is adding water to 

2 the condensate drain pan. PTAC, some PTACs 

3 will transfer the condensate water from the 

4 evaporator side to the condenser side to help 

5 cool the condenser and prevent heat transfer. 

6 Adding water into that condensate drain pan 

7 may improve or may reduce the time, the 

8 stabilization time for testing. 

9 DOE requests comment about the 

10 type of water that could have an effect on 

11 the heat performance of the unit, whether the 

12 water is distilled water or just regular city 

13 water that might have dissolved solids in it. 

14 That brings us to our second of 

15 two comments. I'll just talk about the first 

16 comment for now. DOE requests comment 

17 regarding the potential requirements for 

18 sealing leakage gaps between the PTAC wall 

19 sleeve and the test facility partition during 

20 testing. DOE also requests comment regarding 

21 whether any additional set-up requirements 

22 should be included in the test procedure to 
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1 assure accurate and repeatable testing. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. 

3 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

4 Goodman. Goodman Manufacturing would always 

5 been a proponent of doing anything in the 

6 test procedure to minimize variability and 

7 anything we can add to reduce the variability 

8 from laboratory to laboratory would be very 

9 beneficial. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Does that mean 

11 you're endorsing sealing the potential 

12 leakage gap? 

13 MR. THARP: Yes, we would be a 

14 proponent of sealing any leakages. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And what 

16 about additional set-up time requirements 

17 since I've got you on the hook here? 

18 MR. THARP: I don't think it would 

19 be a significant amount of additional time 

20 relative to the total testing that has to be 

21 done. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 MR. THARP: To take the time to 

2 seal the leakage. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 Appreciate it. You can see the comment box 

5 1.4. 

6 Knute? 

7 MR. SVENSON: Next comment, DOE 

8 requests any available test data that would 

9 indicate whether use of city water to prefill 

10 the condensate pans would affect capacity or 

11 efficiency measurements as compared with no 

12 prefilling or with the use of distilled 

13 water. DOE requests comment regarding the 

14 amount of time and labor hours saved during 

15 testing by prefilling the condensate pan. 

16 Finally, DOE requests comment on whether 

17 prefilling of the condensate pan should be 

18 allowed and/or required, and whether there is 

19 any need to require certification reports to 

20 indicate whether this step was taken. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. Jon. 

22 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond, AHRI. 
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1 During AHRI testing, manufacturers would 

2 prefer to pre-fill the condensate pan. And 

3 I've heard preferences for using distilled 

4 water for that. We're working on collecting 

5 data to see how much added time or how that 

6 would change performance, but we don't have 

7 that information yet. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

9 Additional comments on these two sets of 

10 issues? 

11 MR. SVENSON: So the fourth and 

12 fifth. The fourth one is the barometric 

13 pressure correction. And Section 6.1.3 of 

14 ASHRAE 16-1999, manufacturers can increase 

15 their cooling capacity by .8 percent for each 

16 inch of mercury below standard atmospheric 

17 pressure. DOE currently has no test data to 

18 verify that the barometric pressure has a 

19 significant impact on the measured efficiency 

20 of PTACs and PTHPs. 

21 And the fifth issue is the 

22 difference between Standard 16 and Standard 
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1 37. Both of these test procedures are 

2 allowed for measuring cooling capacity 

3 performance according to AHRI 310/380. 

4 We have a table here that kind of 

5 shows the main differences between Standard 

6 16 and Standard 37. For instance, Standard 

7 16 has its barometric pressure adjustment we 

8 just talked about, but Standard 37 doesn't. 

9 Standard 16, the main way that they measure 

10 the cooling capacity is by measuring the heat 

11 input into the test chamber to counteract the 

12 cooling power of the unit. Whereas, Standard 

13 37 basically measures the enthalpy difference 

14 that goes through the evaporator coil. 

15 ASHRAE Standard 16 doesn't eliminate air 

16 recirculation because it's not a ducted unit. 

17 However, ASHRAE Standard 37 would 

18 eliminate this air recirculation. And 

19 there's also a difference in the tolerances 

20 for the electric power measurement. 

21 So that brings us to the next two 

22 comments. DOE requests detailed test data 
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1 that would show the relationship between 

2 barometric pressure and cooling capacity or 

3 efficiency measurements for PTACs and PTHPs 

4 tested using Standard 16. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just pause 

6 there. Karim? 

7 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

8 It is true that AHRI 310 references two 

9 ASHRAE tests 16 and 37. However, when we 

10 look at what we do in our certification 

11 program to which standard we test to, we test 

12 to ASHRAE 16, not ASHRAE 37. So again, we 

13 understand there are two referenced test 

14 procedures, but we intend to revise AHRI 

15 310/380 to remove the reference to ASHRAE 37 

16 and leave only ASHRAE 16 which is really what 

17 we are using today. So our preference would 

18 be to use -- to stick with ASHRAE 16. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Joanna. 

20 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Karim, 

21 do you know whether ASHRAE is considering 

22 revising Standard 16 or is in the process of? 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. 

2 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

3 Goodman Manufacturing. One of the comments I 

4 was going to make is right now ASHRAE is 

5 presently in the process of revising both 

6 Standard 16 and Standard 58. They are in the 

7 process of actually combining those two 

8 standards into one and actually, I believe 

9 they will actually allow both the indoor air 

10 enthalpy method or the calorimeter method and 

11 those meetings are actually typically hosted 

12 by General Electric. But they are happening 

13 every two weeks on Wednesday. And it would 

14 be great if we could get the Department of 

15 Energy and others to participate in those 

16 revisions. And that is something that I 

17 would be a proponent of is everybody working 

18 together to get these ASHRAE standards 

19 updated and then any new standard 

20 efficiencies and DOE test procedures be based 

21 off the newest and latest and greatest ASHRAE 

22 standards. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And just for those 

2 of us that don't know, what does 58 cover? 

3 MR. THARP: Heat pumps. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Heat pumps, okay; 

5 16 and 58, you say. Okay. 

6 Other comments here? Joanna. 

7 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Rusty, 

8 thanks very much for that information. Do 

9 you know whether the ASHRAE Committee is 

10 considering this correction factor in the 

11 revision to -- 

12 MR. THARP: Yes, ASHRAE is 

13 planning on continuing with the barometric 

14 pressure adjustment for the calorimeter 

15 method in 16 and 58. And I also do know that 

16 other AHRI standards do have a barometric 

17 adjustment and in the unitary small product 

18 that I've dealt mostly with over the years, 

19 we're internally discussing what type of 

20 barometric adjustment should be included, but 

21 we feel there should be some sort of 

22 adjustment for barometric pressure. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Since Slide 21 

2 references Standard 37, can you say what's 

3 going on with Standard 37? Is that also -- 

4 MR. THARP: Yes, I can. ASHRAE 37 

5 is also being revised as is 116 and the first 

6 meetings of those happened at the Dallas 

7 meetings in January. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: What is the 

9 duration of this kind of a proceeding 

10 typically? 

11 MR. THARP: Actually, 16 and 58 

12 have been in revision process for a couple of 

13 years. And I think that I believe they 

14 expect to have the completion some time later 

15 this year for ASHRAE 16 and 58. And 37 just 

16 started, so it's probably a couple of years 

17 before that will be completed. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: That's most 

19 helpful. Thank you. 

20 MR. THARP: You're welcome. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you queue 

22 up 16, Knute? 
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1 MR. SVENSON: DOE would also 

2 request any data that would show whether 

3 Standard 16 as compared with Standard 37 

4 results in any significant differences in 

5 measured cooling capacity or efficiency. 

6 Also, test burden associated with each of 

7 these test methods including labor hours, 

8 total test time, and the cost of the required 

9 test facilities. DOE also requests 

10 information on whether manufacturers 

11 generally rate their equipment to Standard 16 

12 or 37. I think we got the answer for that. 

13 And finally, DOE requests comment 

14 on whether one of these test procedures 

15 should be selected as a test procedure 

16 applicable to the equipment. So we choose 

17 one or the other. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I believe we 

19 answered that one as well. So having slogged 

20 through that comment box, are there any 

21 additional comments? 

22 MR. WESTPHALEN: I guess there was 
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1 some discussion about AHRI moving to Standard 

2 16, but there was also a mention that the 

3 combined 16 and 58 will allow both 

4 calorimetric and psychometric, so in the 

5 psychometric version of that is certainly 

6 very similar to 37, so I think the question 

7 is still valid. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Do you 

9 want to pose a specific question, Detlef? 

10 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, in terms of 

11 the test burden differences between the 

12 calorimetric and the psychometric measurement 

13 and the accuracy differences, etcetera. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Rusty. 

15 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from 

16 Goodman Manufacturing. That would be the 

17 case if it does go through with allowing a 

18 psychometric method in ASHRAE 16. There 

19 would still be differences obviously in the 

20 set-up time. As far as what they are, I 

21 can't speak to that. I don't have enough 

22 experience in this realm to know what exactly 
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1 what the differences are for that type of 

2 product. But it would be something that 

3 would need to be addressed. I think to my 

4 understanding most, as Karim mentioned 

5 already, most in the AHRI realm, I believe, 

6 and most that I've dealt with, the minor 

7 dealings I've had with it, typically use the 

8 calorimeter method. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And Rusty, since 

10 you've been so helpful here, we should 

11 probably clarify what your role in these 

12 ASHRAE updates. Are you in a leadership role 

13 or are you just a participant or what? 

14 MR. THARP: I am a participant, a 

15 nonvoting participant in ASHRAE 16 and 58. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

17 MR. THARP: As well as 37. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Do you 

19 have any other specific questions on this, 

20 Knute? No. 

21 Joanna. 

22 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just 
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1 wanted to raise a higher level test procedure 

2 issue which is that the metric for this 

3 equipment for measuring cooling efficiency 

4 EER doesn't capture part-load efficiency. 

5 And I would imagine that this equipment is 

6 operating at part-load the majority of the 

7 time. And there may be technology such as 

8 variable speed compressors that could achieve 

9 significant energy savings in the field and 

10 yet, the benefits of those technologies won't 

11 be captured or won't be fully captured using 

12 the current test procedure. So we would 

13 encourage DOE to consider a new metric for 

14 this equipment that would capture part-load 

15 performance. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Rusty, I don't 

17 want to put you or anybody else on the spot. 

18 Is part-load efficiency something that could 

19 be considered in the context of these 

20 existing ASHRAE standards? 

21 Karim? 

22 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 
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1 Anything can be considered, but you have to 

2 understand how ASHRAE works as well. This is 

3 going to take years for ASHRAE. ASHRAE has to 

4 restart and look at part-loads. I don't 

5 think it's going to happen for this time. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That's not slated 

7 to begin. 

8 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: At this moment. 

10 MR. AMRANE: As far as part-load, 

11 I do not know if manufacturers can talk 

12 better on the product, but it is not really -

13 - it's not like a roof-top unit or even like 

14 a residential A/C. I think those PTACS run 

15 most of the time, I believe at full load. 

16 They don't run at part load. So yes, maybe 

17 you can come up with some designs to reach 

18 its capacity, but again, I don't think it's 

19 current practice in the industry. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Don, do you have a 

21 comment? Don Brundage? 

22 MR. BRUNDAGE: Well, I think if 
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1 you start talking about part-load efficiency, 

2 you deal with issues that come up with a lot 

3 of other HVAC things which is climate. If 

4 you start to talk about anything outside of 

5 the coupled temperature rating conditions, 

6 then you really -- any sort of seasonal or 

7 actual efficiency factor, you start to bring 

8 in climate. 

9 We pushed for -- we're trying to 

10 get some sort of regional efficiency 

11 standards over on residential standards and 

12 PTACs are basically, they're hotel-type 

13 units. They would also be subject to local 

14 climate. But it's a more complex issue than 

15 just doing a part-load efficiency I think. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

17 MR. SVENSON: So that deals with 

18 the test procedures used. So now we'll go 

19 into the analysis that will be done for the 

20 energy conservation standards rulemaking. 

21 So first we'll talk about the 

22 market and technology screening analysis. 
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1 You can see on the diagram it's the first 

2 analysis that we've done for the energy 

3 conservation. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Slow down just a 

5 tad, okay? 

6 MR. SVENSON: The first analysis. 

7 So the purpose of the market and technology 

8 assessment is to characterize the structure 

9 of the equipment industry to determine 

10 equipment classes, efficiencies, 

11 manufacturers, and shipments and to identify 

12 technology options to improve efficiency. 

13 In the screening analysis, we will 

14 screen out technology options that DOE will 

15 not consider in the engineering analysis 

16 based on technological feasibility, 

17 practicability to manufacture, install, and 

18 service; adverse impacts on utility to 

19 consumers or availability; and adverse 

20 impacts on health or safety. 

21 So here's the list of stakeholders 

22 that DOE preliminarily put together. You can 
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1 read through it. DOE seeks comment 

2 concerning any entities that should be added 

3 to this list or even removed from this list. 

4 In particular, additional manufacturers, 

5 small business manufacturers, purchasers, and 

6 energy conservation and environmental 

7 advocates. 

8 I don't know if you want to use 

9 the time to look through the list. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty? 

11 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

12 Goodman. The only thing, in other 

13 rulemakings I've been associated with is 

14 typically users. I don't know what type of 

15 users would be -- I don't see anybody in the 

16 user arena. That would probably be good to 

17 get added to the list. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 

19 thoughts on entities to be added, gaps in the 

20 list? Okay. 

21 MR. SVENSON: So next we'll talk 

22 about equipment classes. DOE typically 
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1 divides covered equipment into classes by the 

2 type of energy used; the capacity of the 

3 product, or other performance-related 

4 features to justify different standard levels 

5 such as features affecting consumer utility. 

6 DOE establishes separate energy 

7 conservation standards for each equipment 

8 class. And in the most recent rulemaking, 

9 DOE established 12 equipment classes for 

10 PTACs and PTHPs. DOE tentatively expects to 

11 maintain these same equipment classes for 

12 this rulemaking. 

13 And here's a table showing the 

14 current equipment classes for this equipment, 

15 basically dividing air conditioners, heap 

16 pump, standard, non-standard size and three 

17 different capacity sizes. So DOE requests 

18 feedback on the equipment classes shown here 

19 covered under this rulemaking. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So the purpose 

21 here, in part at least, would be to -- for 

22 these classes to reflect standard practice, 
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1 right? 

2 Comments on these proposed 

3 classes? Karim? 

4 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

5 I think that they've worked pretty well in 

6 the past. I don't see a need to change that 

7 at the moment. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

9 Rusty? 

10 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

11 Goodman. Just echoing AHRI comment. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

13 MR. SVENSON: So next is 

14 technology assessment. This centers on 

15 understanding how equipment uses energy and 

16 what measures can be taken to reduce energy 

17 consumption of PTACs and PTHPs. 

18 Measures that could improve the 

19 energy efficiency of PTACs and PTHPs are 

20 called technology options, which are based on 

21 technologies used in existing products and/or 

22 working prototypes. 
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1 DOE studies these technology 

2 options by reviewing manufacturer catalogs, 

3 trade publications, technical journals, and 

4 patent filings. 

5 DOE identified 14 technologies for 

6 improving the efficiency of PTACs and PTHPs. 

7 These are generally the same list that we 

8 used in the previous PTAC rulemaking as shown 

9 here. You can read through the list. 

10 What technologies or designs, if 

11 any, should be added to the above list? If 

12 certain changes to the list are not 

13 applicable to all equipment classes, what 

14 equipment classes are affected? 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Technology options. 

16 Joanna? 

17 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I 

18 believe that in the past rulemaking DOE may 

19 have evaluated micro-groove heat exchangers 

20 in addition to micro-channel heat exchangers. 

21 Are micro-groove heat exchangers being 

22 considered as potential technology? 
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1 MR. SVENSON: I'm not sure what 

2 happened in the past, but we certainly add 

3 that to the list for this rulemaking. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. 

5 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

6 Goodman. The micro-groove, that's internally 

7 to being an enhancement. That's typically 

8 used in product today. So that would be more 

9 baseline efficiency. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Quite a few items 

11 there listed, 14 different technology 

12 options. Comments on these and particularly 

13 what might be missing? Nothing additional. 

14 Okay. 

15 MR. SVENSON: Next is screening 

16 analysis. DOE will consider each technology 

17 in light of the four screening criteria as we 

18 mentioned before: technological feasibility; 

19 practicability to manufacture, install, and 

20 service; adverse effects on product utility 

21 or availability; and adverse effects on 

22 health and safety. 
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1 The technology options that pass 

2 through the four screening criteria are 

3 called design options. These options will be 

4 considered in the engineering analysis as 

5 ways to improve the energy efficiency. 

6 So DOE welcomes comments on the 

7 above four criteria. In addition, DOE 

8 requests comment on which technology options 

9 should be screened out, and which screening 

10 criteria would be the basis of the screening. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here. 

12 Okay. 

13 MR. SVENSON: Next comes the 

14 engineering analysis. The engineering 

15 analysis is about five steps. I'll go 

16 through them a little quickly and cover them 

17 in more detail a little bit later. The first 

18 step, DOE will choose equipment classes to be 

19 analyzed and their representative capacity 

20 size. Then next, DOE will identify baseline 

21 efficiency levels for each representative 

22 equipment class that will serve as a 
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1 reference point to assess changes due to more 

2 stringent standards. 

3 Then DOE will identify higher 

4 efficiency levels of replacement based on 

5 design options. Next, DOE will develop 

6 candidate standard levels based on the higher 

7 efficiency levels identified ranging from the 

8 baseline technology to the maximum 

9 technologically feasible level. And next DOE 

10 will come up with a cost efficiency curve 

11 with the results of the engineering analysis 

12 that we passed on to the downstream analysis. 

13 So the first two steps, DOE choose 

14 representative equipment size to concentrate 

15 its analytical efforts. DOE selects 

16 representative equipment size based on high 

17 market volumes or unique performance 

18 characteristics. DOE tentatively selected 

19 four equipment sizes as representative which 

20 we'll show on the next slide. DOE also will 

21 select a baseline efficiency level for each 

22 of those representative capacity sizes. 
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1 Typically what's done, DOE will choose the 

2 minimum federal efficiency level as the 

3 baseline level which we have done in this 

4 rulemaking as well. 

5 So here's a table showing in the 

6 second column the representative cooling 

7 capacity for each of the four equipment 

8 classes we'll be analyzing directly and the 

9 baseline efficiency level. 

10 DOE requests feedback on the 

11 suggested representative cooling capacities 

12 for PTACs and PTHPs for direct analysis. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. 

14 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

15 Goodman. Just typically for each product 

16 type the largest size is quite often the 

17 hardest to achieve the efficiency 

18 requirements. I think it might be a good 

19 idea to include the largest size possible to 

20 sort of get the max efficiency for that size. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

22 MR. SVENSON: That would be like 
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1 12,000 BTUs or even higher? 

2 MR. THARP: I think there's a lot 

3 of 15,000 BTU product available and that's 

4 where the line maxes out. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

6 Additional comments on the representative 

7 cooling capacities? No additional comments. 

8 Okay. 

9 MR. SVENSON: DOE plans to use the 

10 efficiency-level approach in combination with 

11 a cost-assessment approach. The efficiency12 level approach establishes the relationship 

13 between a manufacturer cost and increased 

14 efficiency at predetermined efficiency levels 

15 above the baseline. In the cost-assessment 

16 approach, DOE will disassemble physical units 

17 and reverse-engineer to determine a "bottoms18 up" cost estimate. 

19 In identifying more efficient 

20 PTACs and PTHPs, DOE will use the AHRI 

21 Database of Certified Product Performance and 

22 manufacturers' websites to get the efficiency 
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1 information. The max-tech efficiency level 

2 will be that of the most efficient available 

3 model from these sources. 

4 DOE requests feedback on the use 

5 of a combined analysis approach that uses 

6 multiple information sources to determine the 

7 relationship between manufacturing selling 

8 price and energy consumption of PTACs and 

9 PTHPs. 

10 Any comments on where we get our 

11 efficiency information? 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here. 

13 Okay. 

14 MR. SVENSON: The current federal 

15 energy conservation standard for this 

16 equipment are a set of equations that define 

17 the EER or COP as a function of the 

18 equipment's cooling capacity. Shown here is 

19 a table of those equations for the equipment 

20 sizes. 

21 So DOE is planning to evaluate the 

22 same efficiency levels for PTHPs as for 
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1 PTACs. For standard size PTACs and PTHPs, 

2 DOE is planning on setting efficiency levels 

3 at 4 percent EER increments above the 

4 existing baseline standard for PTACs. 

5 In the fourth bullet, for non6 standard size PTACs and PTHPs, DOE is using 

7 the same method except we're using 8 percent 

8 increments. And then for PTHPs for heat 

9 pumps, DOE is planning to select COP levels 

10 that correspond to each EER level by 

11 calculating the median COP level for each EER 

12 level that's analyzed. 

13 As shown here is a preliminary 

14 graph based on the models that we found on 

15 the market now. We plotted them on the EER 

16 versus cooling capacity curve to give an 

17 idea, more visual idea of what we're doing. 

18 So the bottom two lines are the current 

19 baseline efficiency standards for PTACs and 

20 PTHPs and then each line above that is a 4 

21 percent increment and standard. You can see 

22 where all the products currently fall and are 
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1 now on the market. So this is for standard 

2 size PTACs and PTHPs. And this is for non3 standard size PTACs and PTHPs. 

4 First bullet, DOE requests 

5 feedback on DOE's method of correlating COP 

6 with EER levels. Specifically, DOE requests 

7 data on possible correlations between COP and 

8 EER. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Jon. 

10 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond, AHRI. 

11 AHRI has said if the PTAC efficient EER 

12 levels are raised, they should be to that of 

13 the level for PTHPs. Is that clear? So if 

14 the PTAC levels, EER levels are raised, they 

15 should meet the PTHP levels. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

17 Additional comments on 5.9 before we move to 

18 5.10? 

19 MR. SVENSON: Detlef has a 

20 comment. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please, 

22 Detlef. 
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1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Hi, Detlef 

2 Westphalen, Navigant Consulting. I wonder if 

3 you could go back to the standard size plot 

4 there. And I want to go back to Rusty's 

5 comment about the 15,000 being a good 

6 representative being at the high end. If I 

7 look at this plot in light of the slope of 

8 the EER line versus capacity, it would seem 

9 that the smaller sizes have a harder time 

10 meeting the standard efficiency levels or the 

11 suggested levels. So I just want to perhaps 

12 get some comment on whether you would 

13 reconsider the 15,000 in light of the data 

14 that we see there? 

15 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

16 Goodman Manufacturing. Typically, because 

17 the PTACs typically all have the same face 

18 area, the same physical size, you can't get 

19 the same heat transfer square feet area per 

20 ton in a 15,000 BTU as you do a 7,000 BTU. 

21 So that was the primary reason for my 

22 comment. The physical size of the unit is 
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1 basically set and that's the biggest unit is 

2 the one that's going to be hardest to get the 

3 highest efficiency for that particular size, 

4 if that makes sense. Just because if you 

5 look at the general trend is a decrease as 

6 you get bigger, so if you're given a 

7 particular size, if you're trying to go 4 

8 percent across the board, you may be able to 

9 get 4 percent increase on smaller sizes, but 

10 you probably can't get the same percentage 

11 increase on the biggest size. So that's why 

12 I was suggesting also evaluating the biggest 

13 size. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim. 

15 MR. AMRANE: Yes, Karim, AHRI. I 

16 have a question about the graph here. All 

17 the points below the curves are really PTACs 

18 below the federal minimum standards is what 

19 you say? 

20 MR. SVENSON: I said predominantly 

21 those are information I got from the 

22 manufacturing websites and I think they're 
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1 typically, I guess, built to order PTACs that 

2 aren't necessarily the standard size PTAC. 

3 It can actually be larger than the 16 and 42. 

4 MR. AMRANE: Standard size you 

5 said, right? 

6 MR. SVENSON: It's the standard 

7 size. 

8 MR. AMRANE: So it should be the 

9 16 by 42. 

10 MR. SVENSON: These are larger 

11 than 16. 

12 MR. AMRANE: So they're larger 

13 than 16. Okay. All right. 

14 MR. SVENSON: I'll have to go back 

15 and check exactly what models they were. 

16 MR. AMRANE: Okay. I think we 

17 have a problem here if that's the case. 

18 MR. WESTPHALEN: We'll look into 

19 that. 

20 MR. AMRANE: I'm sure you will. 

21 (Laughter.) 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Did we queue 
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1 up 5-10 and 5-11? 

2 MR. SVENSON: DOE requests 

3 feedback on the method of selecting EER 

4 levels for analysis for PTACs and PTHPs. 

5 Specifically, DOE requests feedback on the 

6 use of the AHRI database, rating information 

7 and manufacturers' websites as the source for 

8 this analysis. If this is not an appropriate 

9 source or any of these are not an appropriate 

10 source, DOE requests suggestions of 

11 alternative sources of efficiency 

12 information. Also, DOE requests comments on 

13 the use of the same efficiency levels for 

14 PTACs and PTHPs. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Yolanda. 

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, Yolanda 

17 Williams with G.E. Just a point of 

18 clarification. What was the timing on when 

19 you pulled the data from manufacturers' 

20 websites, etcetera, to construct the plots? 

21 MR. SVENSON: It would have 

22 probably been at least more than like three 
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1 months ago, three or four months ago. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Karim. 

3 MR. AMRANE: Yes, we should keep 

4 in mind the standard became effective October 

5 of last year? 

6 MR. SVENSON: Yes, I think it was 

7 right around that time that I pulled this 

8 data. 

9 MR. AMRANE: So that's probably 

10 why you have those dots below the -- 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So you presume that 

12 some of those dots -- 

13 MR. SVENSON: They may have fallen 

14 off. So I'll need to update the database 

15 which is something I regularly do. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's a 

17 good clarification. Additional comments on 

18 5-10 and 5-11, particularly about the 

19 database AHRI database and other potential 

20 sources? 

21 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim, again, 

22 from AHRI. You can use AHRI database. I 
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1 think it's data certified by AHRI. It has 

2 not everybody, but it has most everybody on 

3 it. So it's a good sourse of information. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

5 MR. SVENSON: More specifically, 

6 for the manufacturers who aren't members of 

7 AHRI, we're using data from their websites. 

8 Is that generally a good source? 

9 MR. AMRANE: I think so, too. And 

10 again, those listed in the AHRI directory are 

11 not necessarily members of AHRI either. The 

12 certification program is open to members of 

13 AHRI and non-members as well. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

15 Joanna. 

16 MS. MAUER: Joanna Maurer. I just 

17 note that on the graph that shows the 

18 potential efficiency levels, the levels seem 

19 to capture the range of efficiency levels 

20 that are currently available on the market, 

21 but I would imagine that for this equipment, 

22 the units with the maximum efficiency levels 
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1 don't represent a true max tech level. So we 

2 would expect that DOE would also evaluate at 

3 least one level of efficiency beyond the 

4 efficiency levels of products currently 

5 available on the market. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage. 

7 MR. BRUNDAGE: Just a quick 

8 question for Karim. On your database, if a 

9 piece of equipment is discontinued, are there 

10 procedures to remove that from the database 

11 promptly or could that be part of the problem 

12 here, that it's old stuff that would not 

13 actually be ordered? 

14 MR. AMRANE: Typically, I think we 

15 have six months, so we keep those six months 

16 in the directory from the time they are 

17 discontinued by the manufacturers and then 

18 they are removed. 

19 MR. SVENSON: Then lastly, we will 

20 get into determining the cost efficiency 

21 curve which is a result of the engineering 

22 analysis. So equipment at each efficiency 
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1 level for analysis will be either physically 

2 or virtually torn down to derive the 

3 manufacturing costs or MPC for each equipment 

4 class. Using these MPCs, DOE will calculate 

5 the manufacturer selling price, MSP, by 

6 multiplying the MPC by a manufacturing markup 

7 and adding a shipping cost. The result of 

8 the engineering analysis will be a set of 

9 price-efficiency curves, MSP versus EER, for 

10 each of the representative equipment classes 

11 that will be analyzed. 

12 So lastly, we have the comments 

13 from the framework for discussion. DOE seeks 

14 comment on the best ways to collect 

15 information for the engineering analysis such 

16 as costs to achieve energy use reductions, 

17 shipments disaggregated by equipment class 

18 and efficiency level, etcetera. 

19 Any comments on that? 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 

21 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

22 To the extent that we can provide you 
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1 aggregated information we will, so we are 

2 talking to the manufacturers to try to get 

3 that to you. So we will give you something. 

4 MR. SVENSON: Okay. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

6 MR. SVENSON: The second, DOE 

7 requests input on appropriate categories and 

8 questions to be included on such requests for 

9 information. 

10 Third bullet, DOE seeks 

11 recommendations regarding the potential data 

12 collection efforts made by industry 

13 participants in support of this rulemaking. 

14 Something Karim - 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

16 MR. SVENSON: Last, DOE is also 

17 interested in receiving equipment test data, 

18 test procedure used, rating conditions, 

19 voltage, etcetera. Test data representative 

20 of the baseline model in each equipment class 

21 is particularly important. So any test data 

22 you have from currently tested PTACs. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim. 

2 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

3 We have test data to the extent the 

4 manufacturers are willing to share the 

5 information we will share it with you. So we 

6 will ask manufacturers if they are willing to 

7 allow AHRI to provide you that information. 

8 MR. SVENSON: DOE seeks comment on 

9 which information sources may be the best for 

10 developing estimates of manufacturing selling 

11 prices. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here? 

13 MR. SVENSON: Next, are there any 

14 proprietary designs that DOE should consider 

15 in its analysis for any of the equipment 

16 under consideration? If so, how should DOE 

17 acquire the cost data necessary for 

18 evaluating these designs? Conversely, are 

19 there proprietary designs that should not be 

20 considered and which equipment uses these 

21 designs? 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 
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1 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

2 Again, I'm not comfortable with the term of 

3 proprietary designs because if they are 

4 proprietary it means that they cannot be used 

5 by others. So if we establish a minimum 

6 efficiency standard based on those designs to 

7 only -- the proprietary of one manufacturer, 

8 I don't think it will be helpful. So I'm not 

9 sure if we need to use proprietary design to 

10 establish the efficiency standard. That's my 

11 personal opinion. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking at the 

13 question again to see if it's -- if that 

14 answers it. Despite the fact that you've 

15 answered it in your own way. 

16 Don Brundage. 

17 MR. BRUNDAGE: I think it might be 

18 legitimate if you're looking for some sort of 

19 max tech design, but we've gone through this 

20 and many other standards rulemakings, that if 

21 it's proprietary or patented, it really can't 

22 be considered for an actual efficiency level. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 

2 comments here? Of course, the Department, as 

3 you all know, welcomes your lengthy and 

4 detailed written comments on issues such as 

5 these and others. 

6 MR. SVENSON: The last bullet is 

7 are there any outside regulatory issues that 

8 DOE should consider in its engineering 

9 analysis for this equipment class? 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Regulatory issues? 

11 Okay. Karim. 

12 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

13 Industry continues to be faced with 

14 refrigerant issues, okay. We just phased out 

15 ozone-depleting refrigerants, HCFCs in 2010. 

16 And industry moved away from using HCFCs 

17 today which is fine, but again, there is 

18 discussion today on climate change, 

19 discussion that are indicating that maybe 

20 those refrigerants will be phased down in the 

21 future. 

22 So again, I know there is no 
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1 regulation in place today. There is nothing 

2 in place, but this is something we believe 

3 the Department should study as well. Because 

4 the refrigerants that we're looking at, the 

5 new refrigerants with low global warming 

6 potential, are not as efficient as the old 

7 ones. So we need to keep that in mind. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

9 MR. SVENSON: So I'll pass it over 

10 to Bingyi for energy use analysis and mark-up 

11 analysis. 

12 MR. YU: Good morning. My name is 

13 Bingyi Yu from Lawrence Berkeley National 

14 Lab. I'll be discussing some of the 

15 downstream analyses starting off with the 

16 energy use analysis. 

17 The purpose here in this analysis 

18 is to understand the energy use 

19 characteristics of PTACs and PTHPs. And some 

20 of the issues that are involved with this 

21 analysis is from the 2008 rulemakings, whole 

22 building PTAC and PTHP energy use 
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1 simulations. It utilizes an old version of 

2 CBECS and we'll use that as an launching 

3 point for the analysis for this current 

4 rulemaking. 

5 So some of the issues involve -- 

6 it's the second bullet, cannot update the 

7 simulations because CBECS 2008 was not 

8 released and that there are characteristics 

9 of a building that we cannot implement into 

10 the simulations. So as well as there are 

11 some adjustments for whether equivalent 

12 efficiency in population from data sources 

13 that were released recently versus what was 

14 previously available. 

15 So in that sense, we'll use the 

16 outputs of the 2008 rulemakings, the whole 

17 building energy simulations, and adjust those 

18 outputs with the sub-bullet, Typical 

19 Meteorological Year 3, TMY3 data versus TMY2 

20 data. We'll consider the efficiency levels 

21 for this rulemaking versus the prior ones, as 

22 well as 2010 Census population data versus 
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1 the 2000 Census population data for this 

2 analysis. 

3 Now we'll go into more detail on 

4 these three points. First one is for the 

5 unit average energy use. I want to 

6 investigate the existence and extent of the 

7 change in monthly maximum temperatures, T_max 

8 and/or monthly cooling degree days, CDD. And 

9 we'll do this by comparing the weather data 

10 from the TMY3 as well as the TMY2 weather 

11 databases. Do that comparison, see if there 

12 are any trends, any correlations between 

13 T_max and CDD, to energy use. 

14 And utilize those correlations to adjust 

15 energy use based on the new weather data set. 

16 And lastly, we'll calculate the 

17 unit average energy use over the 239 U.S. 

18 weather stations and we'll again weight by 

19 the 2010 Census population data. 

20 The second issue is to determine 

21 the energy use for the current rulemaking's 

22 efficiency levels. And technique here is to 
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1 utilize extrapolation or interpolation 

2 actually of how efficiency or how capacity 

3 changes with efficiency. This is from a 

4 graph from the previous rulemaking. As you 

5 can see, the trend is relatively linear. So 

6 we extrapolate that to higher efficiencies 

7 that might give a good indication of the 

8 capacity for high-efficiency levels that 

9 could be considered in this rulemaking. 

10 Now the final issue in the energy 

11 use analysis is to determine the national 

12 energy use. And we do that by multiplying 

13 the unit average energy use which we just 

14 determined. For the baseline, the higher 

15 efficiency levels, and again we scale that 

16 with the 2010 Census population data to 

17 obtain a national energy use. 

18 We have one issue for discussion 

19 here. DOE seeks comment on whether the 

20 existing inputs, software, methodology and 

21 outputs to estimate unit average and national 

22 energy for PTACs and PTHPs are adequate and 
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1 appropriate for the current rulemaking. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna. 

3 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Sorry, 

4 could you just explain again what you were 

5 showing on the graph on the previous slide? 

6 MR. YU: Yes. So here we have the 

7 capacity versus the different efficiency 

8 levels. And the thought here is if you are 

9 able to extrapolate the capacity, because 

10 it's currently a linear trend, if you're able 

11 to extrapolate that past the efficiency 

12 levels used in the previous analysis, in the 

13 previous rulemaking, you can see how -- what 

14 the numbers would be for the efficiency 

15 levels in this analysis, for this rulemaking. 

16 MS. MAUER: The capacity of the 

17 unit? 

18 MR. YU: Right, so the capacity 

19 will be related to the energy consumption and 

20 then that would be used for the energy use 

21 analysis. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: What is the 
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1 assumption you're making? 

2 MR. BRUNDAGE: I think you've got 

3 a graph mislabeled. I think it's COP on the 

4 Y axis and you've got BTU/H. 

5 MR. YU: Right, BTUs per hour. 

6 MR. BRUNDAGE: Is that supposed to 

7 be COP on that axis? 

8 MR. YU: I don't believe it's 

9 supposed to be COP, but we have to go back 

10 and double check some of the numbers in this 

11 chart. 

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: I think that's 

13 supposed to be kWH. So it was just a 

14 mislabeled axis. It's showing the energy use 

15 going down with the efficiency level. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Greg 

17 Rosenquist. Thank you. 

18 MR. YU: Yes. 

19 MR. AMRANE: Just a question here. 

20 How is your methodology compared to what 

21 ASHRAE 90.1 does when it estimates the energy 

22 savings of equipment efficiency? Are you 
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1 talking to PNL? Are you -- 

2 MR. YU: We have -- there are many 

3 people available in the public that we will 

4 definitely network with and also try to 

5 understand their techniques to calculate the 

6 energy use for this equipment. But the 

7 technique here is to understand how it was 

8 previously done and see if there's any trends 

9 that are available that can be extrapolated. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 

11 MR. AMRANE: I guess I understand 

12 it was previously done, but at the same time 

13 I think there is a methodology used by the 

14 ASHRAE 90.1 Committee to estimate energy 

15 savings. There are modeling tools. And I 

16 urge you to consult with the folks -- I 

17 assume they work for PNNL. It's just the 

18 standard way of doing it. We don't want -- I 

19 think we're satisfied with that, so I think 

20 you should look at this, too. 

21 MR. YU: Understood, thank you. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So you already 
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1 queued up this comment box. Additional 

2 comments on item 6.1? Okay. 

3 MR. YU: Next, we'll jump into the 

4 markups analysis. The purpose of the markups 

5 analysis is to understand the distribution 

6 channels for PTACs and PTHPs as well as 

7 understand the markups for each of those 

8 distribution channels. 

9 The method here is to utilize the 

10 distribution channels from the previous 

11 rulemaking, estimate the markups for each 

12 step from the manufacturer to each of the 

13 purchasers. And estimate markups for the 

14 baseline and higher-efficiency equipment 

15 based on some of the fixed and variable costs 

16 associated with the equipment. 

17 In this case, there are four 

18 distribution channels to be analyzed. One is 

19 a national account where equipment is 

20 delivered from the manufacturer directly to 

21 the purchaser. Equipment is also delivered 

22 from the manufacturer to the wholesaler, 
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1 which is delivered to the purchaser. 

2 Wholesaler can deliver it to the mechanical 

3 contractor, which has been sold, or deliver 

4 it to a general contractor and sold. Now 

5 with these four distribution channels there 

6 are two types of markups associated. One is 

7 the baseline markup and one is the 

8 incremental markup. The baseline markups are 

9 multipliers that directly convert 

10 manufacturer and selling price to a purchaser 

11 price. And data for these markups can be 

12 obtained from intermediary distributors and 

13 contractors from industry as well as trade 

14 association literature and data. 

15 Some of the examples here are the 

16 HARDI Profit Planning Report for wholesalers; 

17 the ACCA literature, as well as U.S. Census 

18 Bureau data that can be used for the baseline 

19 markups. 

20 Also, for the incremental markups, 

21 these are the multipliers for the incremental 

22 cost change of the manufacturer's selling 
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1 price for higher-efficiency equipment. And 

2 the data for these incremental markups are 

3 obtained from similar sources. 

4 The one issue for discussion here5 - DOE seeks input on whether the methodology 

6 to calculate markups for PTAC and PTHP 

7 equipment is adequate and appropriate for the 

8 current rulemaking. 

9 MR. CYMBALSKY: I have a question 

10 for the manufacturers. Do you at all sell 

11 directly to the large hotel chains or do you 

12 mostly go through a distributor? 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty? 

14 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

15 Goodman. At this point I honestly don't know 

16 the sell side. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yolanda, do you 

18 know? 

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yolanda with G.E. 

20 That's something I can review with our sales 

21 team and then we can provide some specific 

22 information on all distribution channels. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank 

2 you, Rusty. 

3 MR. YU: Thank you. Next we'll 

4 jump into the life-cycle costs and payback 

5 period analysis. The purpose here for these 

6 two analyses is to understand the net 

7 economic impact on purchasers. And the 

8 impact would be based on the PTACs, PTHPs at 

9 the considered efficiency levels. 

10 The method here, so we have two 

11 analyses. We have the life-cycle cost and 

12 the payback period analysis. The life-cycle 

13 cost is based on installed cost, operating 

14 cost, the discounting of the operating cost 

15 over the equipment lifetime. And the payback 

16 period is just based on the first year's 

17 operating cost savings. 

18 Now because we have in this 

19 analysis point values, as well as probability 

20 distribution of some of the inputs, we take 

21 both of those into account in a Monte Carlo 

22 analysis. And that's implemented in 
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1 Microsoft Excel with Crystal Ball. 

2 So for these two analyses, there 

3 are four inputs as we mentioned. For each 

4 input, there are two considerations. In the 

5 installed cost which is the first one, 

6 there's purchase price and installation 

7 costs. Purchase price is derived from the 

8 baseline and higher efficiency equipment and 

9 some of that -- the outputs from the market 

10 analysis is used here, so we consider the 

11 manufacturer's selling price, the markups, as 

12 well as the sales tax. 

13 The installation costs we gather 

14 from RS Means Cost Works and those costs are 

15 related to nonmaterial costs as well as 

16 labor. 

17 For operating costs, we consider 

18 energy costs as well as repair and 

19 maintenance. Energy costs are developed off 

20 marginal energy prices based on utility 

21 tariffs and the prices that are projected 

22 into the future are based from sources such 
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1 as the Annual Energy Outlook. 

2 Repair and maintenance. DOE plans 

3 to use the same costs for all considered 

4 efficiency levels. 

5 Equipment lifetime is the third 

6 input. DOE will use information from various 

7 sources such as manufacturer literature, 

8 other literature sources, as well as input 

9 from manufacturers and interested parties. 

10 Based on the prior rulemaking, DOE 

11 expects lifetime to be represented by Weibull 

12 distribution with an average of 10 years and 

13 a maximum of 20 years. 

14 Lastly, for the discount rates, 

15 these discount rates, DOE derived a 

16 distribution of those rates for businesses 

17 that frequently employ PTACs PTHPs such as 

18 lodging, lodging end uses. These rates are 

19 based on two primary rates. One is equity 

20 financing rate and one is a debt financing 

21 rate. These two sources of data for the 

22 equity and debt financing are based on the 
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1 Damodaron Online database as well as 

2 information from the yield on long term 

3 corporate bonds. Lastly again, these are 

4 weighted based on the -- each company's value 

5 and its share of equity and debt financing. 

6 We have one issue for discussion 

7 here. DOE seeks comment on whether the 

8 methodology to calculate life-cycle costs and 

9 payback periods for PTAC and PTHP equipment 

10 is adequate and appropriate for the current 

11 rulemaking. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here? 

13 Karim? Rusty, first. 

14 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

15 Goodman. Just a general comment. I think it 

16 would generally apply to not only this 

17 rulemaking, but several others that quite 

18 often the repair and maintenance costs as was 

19 commented are kept the same regardless of the 

20 efficiency level and we would comment that 

21 typically with the higher efficiency product 

22 that the repair costs and maintenance costs 
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1 are higher with the more efficient products. 

2 So that's something -- we think that should 

3 be used, reconsider that decision. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you quantify 

5 that? 

6 MR. THARP: It depends on the 

7 specific type of technology that would be 

8 used. I guess the one that stands out to me 

9 more recently is the furnace fan rulemaking 

10 is that the fan motors, the BPM type fan 

11 motors typically have a significantly higher 

12 warranty rate, two to three times as much. 

13 So that would be a typical value to use for 

14 those. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim? 

16 MR. YU: Sorry, I just have a 

17 quick followup. Do you know if some of that 

18 data is publicly available or can you provide 

19 it? 

20 MR. THARP: It's probably not 

21 publicly available. We can provide some 

22 information from what we have as we have with 
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1 the furnace fan rulemaking. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

3 MR. YU: Thank you. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. Karim. 

5 MR. AMRANE: Yes, I guess I would 

6 like to have some more information about the 

7 average lifetime, the ten years. What basis 

8 was this selected? I mean is it based on 

9 information from manufacturers, from -- 

10 MR. YU: Right, we have to go back 

11 and look at the previous rulemaking's 

12 assumptions that was made in that rulemaking. 

13 It was acceptable in the previous rulemaking 

14 and I believe that it's still usable in this 

15 rulemaking. 

16 MR. AMRANE: We can provide you 

17 probably more information, but we need to 

18 look as well what ASHRAE uses for equipment 

19 lifetime for this type of product. I think 

20 ASHRAE has some information on this. So I 

21 think you need to look at that and we'll get 

22 you some more information. 
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1 I have a general question about 

2 payback, in general. I mean we are doing 

3 this analysis. I have no issue with the 

4 analysis. So I guess I would like to have 

5 some discussion about the usefulness of the 

6 analysis itself. If I recall, because I've 

7 been around for a long time, if I recall the 

8 last rulemaking, the payback period for PTAC, 

9 the efficiency standard by DOE was over ten 

10 years, so it was over the average lifetime of 

11 the product. 

12 MR. YU: It was 11. 

13 MR. AMRANE: It was 11 years. So 

14 and then yet DOE went ahead and adopted those 

15 efficiency standards. I guess for me the 

16 question is how can we go ahead with an 

17 efficiency standard which has a payback 

18 longer than the life of the product itself? 

19 And that's why I'm asking the question. 

20 Yes, we are doing this, but at the 

21 end of the day again it's one of the factors 

22 that DOE, I guess, uses to justify the 
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1 standard. And at least last time it was 

2 completely disregarded. So I guess I would 

3 like to have some discussion about why are we 

4 doing all this? If we find a payback of 15 

5 years, is DOE going to -- what's the 

6 usefulness of the analysis itself? 

7 MR. YU: As you mentioned, one 

8 thing that I did want to point out is 

9 understood that the payback analysis in this 

10 case could be 10 or 11 years. But in this 

11 case, we don't expect -- we expect an average 

12 -- the average lifetime to be 10 years, but 

13 there could be maximum lifetime of 20 years. 

14 So in that case, it could be -- certain 

15 units could be still functioning, still have 

16 a lifetime that's still operating and be 

17 within its payback period. 

18 I'd like to open this up for any 

19 other thoughts. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage. 

21 MR. BRUNDAGE: I've got a couple 

22 of comments on this. One is this is not -- 
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1 to have a PTAC out there and the tail end of 

2 the distribution may last 20 years, you need 

3 to think about where these are actually being 

4 used. Mass installations in places like 

5 hotels, they're not going to ring the last 

6 bit of life out of the tail end of that 

7 distribution. If they start hitting the 

8 point where they're going to have a lot of 

9 failures, they're going to replace the whole 

10 lot and the whole wing of the hotel gets new 

11 equipment. 

12 So you really can't go very far 

13 out that distribution, I don't think, before 

14 you start having mass replacements because 

15 it's not an individual investment decision 

16 for each PTAC. If it gets to the point that 

17 it's not going to be as reliable, the whole 

18 bunch is going to get replaced. 

19 I had another more minor comment, 

20 just back on your discount rates for 

21 businesses, is to remember that these 

22 businesses -- you don't just go to the 
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1 Marriotts and the Hiltons, the actual hotels 

2 a lot of times are owned by franchises who 

3 are less well capitalized. So make sure 

4 you're covering who actually is purchasing 

5 the equipment and not just the name on the 

6 marquee. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky. 

8 MR. CYMBALSKY: I actually have 

9 some first-hand knowledge with this because 

10 my wife works for Marriott and does this for 

11 a living. So when they do these rehabs, they 

12 actually have like the packages actually 

13 thrust upon the franchisees. They're putting 

14 up the money, but Marriott actually designs 

15 what goes in there. 

16 So that led me to another question 

17 for the manufacturers. I know at least a 

18 couple of these big hotel firms have been 

19 pushing LEED certified in their rehabs and 

20 their new construction. Have you seen an 

21 uptick in higher efficiency PTACs because of 

22 this or has it just been efficiency wise 
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1 pretty flat in the last -- particularly the 

2 last five years? 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty? 

4 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

5 Goodman. I'm not close enough to really give 

6 you a good accurate answer, but just from 

7 where I sit I think it's fairly flat. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments 

9 here? 

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: An additional 

11 comment I'll throw in, as Don says, this 

12 would be a good point to get input from the 

13 users besides just this one company as far as 

14 what they're actually doing. 

15 And my second question is when 

16 they spec these out, does the noise of these 

17 units come into play with what the end user 

18 is actually demanding? It seems to me that 

19 for these hotel chains that the sound is 

20 probably of more concern to them than the 

21 efficiency. 

22 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 
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1 Goodman. We would confirm that the sound is 

2 probably a bigger issue than efficiency for 

3 the end users from my perspective. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

5 MR. YU: Next, we come to the 

6 shipments analysis and the national impact 

7 analysis. The shipments analysis, the 

8 purpose is to understand shipments of new and 

9 replacement PTACs and PTHPs. We've got them 

10 broken down into segments. One is the new 

11 equipment, the ones --replacement equipment. 

12 New equipment, we'll try to 

13 characterize the shipments based on the 

14 multiplication of two variables. One is the 

15 saturation, which is the equipment per square 

16 foot of floor space, as well as your 

17 projected increases in that floor space. It 

18 could be hotel/motel, healthcare and other 

19 small office floor space that frequently 

20 PTACs and PTHPs. 

21 For replacement equipment, we 

22 project the annual shipments of replacement 
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1 equipment based on a rate of failure for the 

2 existing stock. 

3 Lastly, DOE is not aware of any 

4 evidence that shipments would be affected by 

5 increased price of higher efficiency 

6 equipment. 

7 We have a few issues for 

8 discussion here. DOE requests historical 

9 shipments data for each of the considered 

10 equipment classes. And I guess we can hit 

11 each of these points one at a time. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim. 

13 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

14 As I said, I think we'll give you some 

15 historical shipment data. 

16 MR. YU: Thank you. 

17 MR. AMRANE: On the product class. 

18 But to your statement, that shipment did not 

19 increase with equipment efficiency. I think 

20 probably you will see that there probably 

21 will be a decrease in shipment of the PTACs. 

22 MR. YU: Thank you. 
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1 MR. AMRANE: And also the fact 

2 that many manufacturers who used to be making 

3 the product in the U.S. are not making the 

4 product any more in the U.S. because of those 

5 high efficiency standards, too. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim, do you know 

7 if there's a big export market for these or 

8 is this mostly U.S.? 

9 MR. AMRANE: I don't know. I 

10 think it's mostly U.S. but you'll have to ask 

11 the manufacturers. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. 

13 MR. THARP: Yolanda's here, too, 

14 you know. I'm on the sales side, I can't 

15 give you much detail, but I do think that 

16 most of our product is shipped domestically. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yolanda. 

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yolanda Williams. 

19 Again, I think as a followup we can kind of 

20 summarize what that shipment information is 

21 and give you feedback. 

22 MR. YU: Second item, DOE seeks 
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1 information on the proportions of PTAC and 

2 PTHP equipment that is shipped annually that 

3 replaces the existing equipment 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that really 

5 available, Karim? 

6 MR. AMRANE: From AHRI, no. It's 

7 not. We'll get you shipments when it is 

8 shipped. It's going to be new construction 

9 as well as replacement. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

11 MR. YU: Any data is good data. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. 

13 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with 

14 Goodman. I don't know that we as a 

15 manufacturer would be able to tell. We could 

16 give you our guesstimate in which we'll 

17 provide you with the written comments. But I 

18 don't think there's really good, hard data 

19 that we can provide. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

21 MR. AMRANE: However, this is 

22 Karim again, however, I mean you can have a 
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1 pretty good idea of the construction of new 

2 hotels and motels in the U.S. So that would 

3 be basically new construction, so you would 

4 be able to deduct the replacements. So I 

5 don't think it's going to be difficult for 

6 you to estimate that. 

7 MR. YU: Okay, third item is DOE 

8 welcomes comment on the proposed shipments 

9 forecast methodology and input regarding 

10 market forces that might impact shipments. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Market forces you 

12 anticipate, should you be so bold. Okay. 

13 MR. YU: DOE welcomes comment on 

14 how amended standards for PTAC and PTHP 

15 equipment might impact shipments of the 

16 equipment. And I believe Karim addressed 

17 that with the sending of the data. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

19 MR. YU: Lastly is the -- not 

20 lastly, lastly in this preliminary analysis 

21 is the national impact analysis. There's two 

22 sub-analyses here. One is the national 
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1 energy savings and one is to determine the 

2 net present value of total purchaser benefits 

3 for each considered efficiency level. 

4 For NES, national energy savings 

5 analysis, the method here is to develop 

6 annual series of national energy and economic 

7 impacts over the lifetime of products shipped 

8 in the forecast period. And this utilizes 

9 the outputs from many of the priorly 

10 discussed analyses. One is the shipments 

11 model to estimate equipment stock. The LCC 

12 analysis for energy savings and incremental 

13 costs, and also DOE plans to project a trend 

14 in average efficiency in the base case and 

15 standards case and report the final energy 

16 savings in primary, as well as full-fuel17 cycle energy savings. 

18 For the net present value, 

19 estimate the present value of those costs and 

20 savings using OMB 3 percent and 7 percent 

21 discount rates. 

22 Two issues for discussion here. 
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1 DOE seeks comment -- and we can discuss the 

2 first one. DOE seeks comment on whether the 

3 existing methodology to estimate national 

4 impact of amended energy efficiency standards 

5 is adequate and appropriate to evaluate for 

6 the current analysis. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here. 

8 MR. YU: DOE seeks comment on the 

9 likely long-term trend in average efficiency 

10 of PTAC and PTHP equipment in the absence of 

11 amended standards. 

12 For the NOPR analysis, I'll 

13 quickly go over the purchaser subgroup 

14 analysis and have Knute come up and talk 

15 about the manufacturer impact analysis. And 

16 we'll tag team again. 

17 The purchaser subgroup analysis, 

18 the purpose here is to understand the 

19 economic impacts of amended standards on 

20 subgroups who may be disproportionately 

21 impacted. And the method here is simply just 

22 extend the LCC analysis to certain subgroups 
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1 as determined that may be disproportionately 

2 impacted. 

3 One item for discussion, if 

4 there's any comments, DOE welcomes comment on 

5 what, if any, user subgroups are appropriate 

6 in considering amended standards for PTACs 

7 and PTHPs. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here? 

9 Okay. 

10 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with 

11 AHRI. I guess it was mentioned before that 

12 maybe you should be talking to the hotels, 

13 motels, other users of those products. I 

14 think they have been missing in the 

15 discussion and in previous rulemaking as 

16 well. So I support that that group be 

17 consulted. 

18 MR. YU: Understood. Thank you. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And now we're going 

20 to hear from Knute. 

21 MR. SVENSON: I'm going to talk 

22 briefly about the manufacturing impact 
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1 analysis. The purpose of the manufacturing 

2 impact analysis is to assess the impacts of 

3 amended standards on manufacturers; to 

4 identify and estimate impacts on manufacturer 

5 subgroups that may be more severely impacted 

6 than the industry as a whole; and to examine 

7 the impact of cumulative regulatory burden on 

8 the industry. 

9 The method that we'll use is we'll 

10 analyze industry cash flow and net present 

11 value through the use of the Government 

12 Regulatory Impact Model or the GRIM. And 

13 we'll also interview manufacturers to refine 

14 inputs to the GRIM, develop subgroup 

15 analyses, and address qualitative issues. 

16 We have three comments. First 

17 one, DOE seeks comment on appropriate 

18 subgroups for PTACs and PTHPs, if any, that 

19 DOE should consider in a manufacturer 

20 subgroup analysis. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Subgroups? No. 

22 MR. SVENSON: Second one, DOE 
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1 welcomes comment on regulations or pending 

2 regulations should DOE consider in its 

3 analysis of cumulative regulatory burden. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim. 

5 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. Well, 

6 there are certain manufacturers who are 

7 making other products than just PTACs and I 

8 think are impacted by other rulemakings, 

9 central A/C, room A/C, I mean you name it, 

10 household refrigerators, if you take the case 

11 of G.E. and others. So I think there are 

12 several rulemakings and at least those 

13 manufacturers, the impact of those 

14 rulemakings on these manufacturers should be 

15 looked at. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

17 MR. SVENSON: Last comment. DOE 

18 welcomes industry feedback on the number and 

19 names of small businesses that manufacture 

20 PTACs and PTHPs. I think small business is 

21 defined as a company having 750 employees or 

22 fewer. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim. 

2 MR. AMRANE: Well, there are a few 

3 manufacturers who make nonstandard size PTACs 

4 and I think those are small manufacturers and 

5 I think you should be looking at them. And I 

6 think some of the names were listed in the 

7 previous slides. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty. 

9 MR. THARP: Actually, going back 

10 to item 12-2, just reiterating also the 

11 comments that Karim made earlier about 

12 refrigerants and the impact that that -- 

13 potential impact that has on manufacturers as 

14 well as users in total energy consumption 

15 which may be mindful of what's come down the 

16 pike in terms of refrigerants. 

17 MR. SVENSON: I'll pass it over to 

18 Bingyi. 

19 MR. CYMBALSKY: Rusty, do you guys 

20 have test data that could be available using 

21 different refrigerants or is that something 

22 you don't want to -- 
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1 MR. THARP: We have very limited 

2 additional alternate refrigerants from what 

3 we've seen. Again, if you look at AHRI's 

4 AREP program, has some additional information 

5 that would be useful also in this area. 

6 MR. AMRANE: Yes, I would like to 

7 add that we do have a program. It's called 

8 the Low-GWP Alternative Refrigerants 

9 Evaluation Program that was started about a 

10 year and a half ago. And the data that's 

11 coming out of this program is publicly 

12 available. It's on our website and you're 

13 going to see more and more reports on our 

14 website. But yes, we do have data. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

16 MR. YU: Here we'll come into the 

17 emissions analysis and monetization. The 

18 purpose here is to understand the impact of 

19 amended standards on emissions, FFC 

20 emissions. And there are six of them. I 

21 won't go into the detail. But DOE will use 

22 the marginal emission factors from the AEO as 
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1 well as any other data sources that are 

2 available. And this analysis includes 

3 emissions from power plants and from some of 

4 the upstream processing of primary fuels. 

5 Now certain emissions can be 

6 monetized and DOE plans to use the most 

7 current social cost of carbon values 

8 developed by U.S. government interagency 

9 working groups for the monetization of GHG 

10 emissions and also to the second bullet, some 

11 CO2 emissions can be monetized in the range 

12 of values from $6.2 to $79.1 per metric ton 

13 removed. So there is data for that. And 

14 lastly, DOE also estimates the monetary 

15 benefit of NOX emissions. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage. 

17 MR. BRUNDAGE: Back on emissions 

18 analysis, the power plant emissions is an 

19 area that is changing very rapidly and I've 

20 had discussions before with you. And I think 

21 you're being diligent in trying to keep up 

22 with the latest information, but there have 
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1 been major announcements by utilities, us and 

2 -- Southern Company and others of major 

3 changes in future generation and power plant 

4 emissions projects. So just be diligent to 

5 include all of that data that you can as up 

6 to date as possible, because this is an area 

7 that's changing very rapidly. 

8 MR. YU: Thank you. We'll keep 

9 that in mind. 

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: Don, do you report 

11 that to EIA as well in terms of what your 

12 plans are so that they can model it in the 

13 national energy modeling system, which would 

14 then get picked up in the AEO? 

15 MR. BRUNDAGE: No, but when I 

16 talked to your consultants about a year ago, 

17 they were looking at supplemental data and 

18 more recent utility announcements. And 

19 keeping up, making adjustments for those 

20 sorts of things. I was satisfied they were 

21 doing a good job on that, but just keep it up 

22 because it is changing very rapidly and 
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1 what's being reported in the EIA model is 

2 probably a little out of date. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

4 Additional thoughts on analysis and this 

5 monetization. 

6 MR. YU: So we have two items for 

7 discussion and DOE seeks input on its 

8 proposed approach to analyze emissions 

9 impacts of amended standards on PTACs and 

10 PTHPs. I think we covered a good amount of 

11 ground on both of these issues. 

12 Are there any other comments for 

13 these? 

14 Utility impact analysis. The 

15 purpose here is to understand how amended 

16 standards would have an impact on utility 

17 capacity as well as generation. And DOE 

18 plans to use factors derived from NEMS-BT to 

19 do that analysis and some of the data sources 

20 from AEO. 

21 One issue here, DOE welcomes any 

22 input from stakeholders on its proposed 
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1 approach to conducting the utility impact 

2 analysis. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage. 

4 MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, 

5 Southern Company. It's not really any -- 

6 there's nothing anything unique about this 

7 rulemaking compared to others as far as 

8 utility impacts. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

10 MR. YU: We'll jump into the 

11 employment impact analysis. The purpose here 

12 is to understand how amended standards would 

13 have an impact on employment. And mostly for 

14 the indirect employment, both through 

15 substitution effect as well as the income 

16 effect. DOE intends to use the ImSET model 

17 to understand how the amended standards would 

18 impact employment. 

19 One comment, DOE welcomes any 

20 thoughts on its proposed approach to 

21 assessing national employment impacts. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments. 
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1 MR. YU: Lastly, the regulatory 

2 impact analysis. The purpose here is to 

3 understand how national effects of non4 regulatory alternatives compared with the 

5 mandatory energy conservation standards. Some 

6 non-regulatory alternatives may consist of 

7 early replacement, manufacturer tax credits, 

8 as you can see in the six points here. 

9 And the methodology used in this 

10 analysis is to modify the NES spreadsheet 

11 model to consider some of these non12 regulatory scenarios. And some of the 

13 analysis is done based on using the outputs 

14 from the NES as well as the NPV. 

15 One issue, any comment regarding 

16 programs, any alternative programs that 

17 should be examined as non-regulatory 

18 approaches. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, nothing here. 

20 MR. YU: This seems like we'll 

21 turn it back to Ron. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: This final slide -- 
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1 before I turn it back to Ron, as we had said 

2 at the outset, an opportunity now for final 

3 comments, any issues that haven't been 

4 covered sufficiently, and also I would remind 

5 you that there's an evaluation form attached 

6 at the back of your packet here, the final 

7 page. 

8 Karim? 

9 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 

10 Just one comment and I should have made it 

11 when we were reviewing the engineering 

12 analysis. You should be aware that ASHRAE 

13 90.1 did demand the standard for PTAC as part 

14 of the 2013 version of 90.1. So there is an 

15 addendum. It was already approved for 

16 publication, public review. It was approved 

17 and it's going to be part of the 2013 version 

18 on 90.1. So that should be a level that you 

19 should be analyzing in your analysis. Thank 

20 you. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

22 Yes, Joanna. 
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1 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just 

2 wanted to ask one question. I'm curious 

3 about whether DOE or manufacturers have 

4 information on the prevalence of new units 

5 with control interfaces such that they can be 

6 integrated into building energy management 

7 systems, be remotely controlled and also any 

8 information about kind of how those units 

9 with the capability are being utilized in the 

10 field. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have any 

12 thoughts on that? Karim. 

13 MR. AMRANE: I can't really 

14 directly answer this question. However, 

15 there is one thing that needs to be accounted 

16 for in this analysis. ASHRAE 90.1 now has 

17 required, for example, that those units be 

18 controlled by thermostat which they were not 

19 in the past. So I think that functionality 

20 should be accounted for in the analysis as 

21 well because the intent is to really turn off 

22 those units when there's nobody in the room, 
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1 for example, so things like that. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 

3 thoughts? Yes, Rusty. 

4 MR. THARP: To answer the 

5 question, we do offer controls that as Karim 

6 indicated when there's nobody in the room it 

7 turns it off and hotel operators can disable 

8 air conditioners for rooms that are not 

9 occupied, so those controls are available. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage. 

11 MR. BRUNDAGE: Just a general 

12 comment on controls and it goes across any of 

13 the commercial rulemakings. The big emphasis 

14 the last couple of years at ASHRAE has been 

15 towards controls, motion sensors, and office 

16 environments. They're even requiring them on 

17 escalators now that they cut off in the 2013 

18 standard if they haven't been used in a while 

19 and there's no one nearby. So across all the 

20 commercial rulemakings, I think you need to 

21 consider that the energy used in utilization 

22 may be dropping compared to what's in the 
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1 past with some of the controls that are 

2 included within the 90.1 standard. 

3 Other comment I have here is this 

4 is a comment -- and this is really something 

5 that probably Karim and the manufacturers -- 

6 there's a lot of followup items here and this 

7 comment period closes in a week. 

8 MR. AMRANE: I do want to ask, 

9 again, I know the deadline is next week for 

10 comments. I think in my opinion we have 

11 plenty of time to complete this rulemaking, 

12 until 2014--the end of 2014 or so, so again, 

13 I mean we're going to try to get you the 

14 comments by next week, but I hope that DOE 

15 will be flexible enough to accept comments if 

16 they are a little bit -- if they come a 

17 little bit later than the 25th. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Majette. 

19 MR. MAJETTE: Only if they're from 

20 AHRI. Anybody else, no. 

21 (Laughter.) 

22 That's just a joke. We can be a 
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1 little flexible. We understand there are 

2 some issues on the table here that we really 

3 need responses to, so try your best to meet 

4 the 25th. And if you find yourself running a 

5 little bit late, just keep in mind it's 

6 better for us to have the comments in our 

7 possession as opposed to shelving them, not 

8 knowing what you have in mind. 

9 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna Mauer. 

10 I would like to formally request an 

11 extension of the comment deadline. 

12 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, we'll work 

13 on that. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: The Department says 

15 they'll work on it for the record. 

16 Yes, Joanna. 

17 MS. MAUER: Just a follow-up, 

18 because it's only a week away if there's any 

19 way you could give us an indication that it 

20 will be extended as soon as possible that 

21 would be very much appreciated. 

22 MR. MAJETTE: We'll have a chat. 
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1 We'll consider it. We're going to consider 

2 it. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Jon. 

4 MR. LEMMOND: This is Jon at AHRI. 

5 Just to add on to that. I have some 

6 requests out to testing labs, to 

7 manufacturers to collect data. I am still 

8 working on getting things back, so it's quite 

9 possible that I won't get anything back next 

10 week. We shouldn't have a problem putting 

11 comments together quickly as soon as we get 

12 data, but the longer, more time we have and 

13 more time I have to push for data requests, 

14 the more we'll be able to provide. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So thanks 

16 for that request. 

17 Now as I had said previously, 

18 final comments as we move toward closure? 

19 For my part, thanks to all of you 

20 and I'll turn it back to Ron Majette. Thank 

21 you. Fill out the evaluation form, please. 

22 MR. MAJETTE: All right, great job 
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1 from all of our presenters. And great job of 

2 our audience who collectively ganged up on us 

3 and made us push the date back. That's fine. 

4 It looks like right now we do have 

5 March 25th, so we will probably extend it by 

6 30 days, so we'll get a blast out soon to 

7 make that official. 

8 I just wanted to go over the fine9 tuned comments or fine-tuned pieces here. 

10 Make sure any comments that you respond back 

11 to us make sure it has the PTAC/PTHP 

12 rulemaking labeled on it so we know which 

13 comments it goes to. 

14 We also want to make sure you 

15 refer to the provided docket number and the 

16 regulatory identification number to make sure 

17 we are correct in applying the comments to 

18 the right rulemakings. We've listed the 

19 email address, and of course, you have our 

20 mailing address and all the other good stuff. 

21 If you have any direct questions or concerns 

22 you can always give me a call, but of course, 
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1 I have to stay with the script, so you're not 

2 going to get any different information from 

3 me than you received here today. 

4 Again, one time, did anybody have 

5 any last questions or comments that they 

6 wanted to give us? If not, thank you very 

7 much. Appreciate your coming. 

8 (Whereupon, at 10:45 a.m., the 

9 public meeting was concluded.) 

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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A

able 52:8 67:9,10

87:15 88:4 106:14

absence 90:10

ACCA 71:17

accelerate 18:17

accept 15:10

104:15

acceptable 78:13

accepts 15:7

account 70:19

73:21

accounted 102:15

102:20

accuracy 33:13

accurate 24:1 83:6

achieve 18:7 20:4

35:8 46:17 58:16

acquire 60:17

Act 11:8 12:7

actual 37:7 61:22

82:1

add 24:7 43:2 95:7

106:5

added 26:5 39:2,17

39:19 42:11

addendum 101:15

adding 23:1,6 58:7

addition 16:4 42:20

44:7

additional 22:9

23:21 24:16,19

26:9 32:21 39:4

39:18 43:13 47:6

47:7 50:17 55:17

62:1 70:1 83:8,10

95:2,4 98:4 103:2

address 92:15

107:19,20

addressed 34:3

88:16

adequate 17:20

66:22 72:7 76:10

90:5

Adjourn 3:16

adjust 64:17 65:14

adjustment 17:8

27:7 30:14,17,20

30:22

adjustments 64:11

97:19

adopt 11:14

adopted 79:14

adopting 11:20

adverse 38:18,19

43:20,21

advocates 10:7

39:7

AEO 95:22 97:14

98:20

affect 25:10

affiliation 5:5

afford 21:14

agencies 10:8

agenda 6:20,20 7:5

aggregated 59:1

ago 15:6 55:1,1

95:10 97:16

ahead 79:14,16

AHRI 2:2,3 5:16

16:2,5 19:15

25:22 26:1 27:3

28:7,8,14 30:16

33:1 34:5 35:22

41:4,11 47:20

50:10,11 52:15

54:6 55:19,22,22

56:1,7,10,11,13

58:21 60:2,7 61:1

62:12 85:13 87:6

91:11 101:9

104:20 106:4

AHRI's 95:3

air 1:3 4:7 5:13

8:12 10:13 13:21

14:9 27:15,18

29:9 40:15 103:8

air/heat 22:15

allow 29:9 33:3

60:7

allowed 25:18 27:2

allowing 33:17

alternate 95:2

alternative 54:11

95:8 100:16

alternatives 100:4

100:6

ambient 17:21

18:17

amend 16:19

amended 11:12

12:7,14 16:17

88:14 90:4,11,19

91:6 92:3 95:19

98:9,15 99:12,17

amending 12:9

13:6

amount 24:19

25:14 98:10

Amrane 2:2 5:13

5:13 19:15,15

20:6 21:16 28:7,7

35:22,22 36:8,10

41:4,4 52:15 53:4

53:8,12,16,20

55:3,9,21 56:9

57:14 58:21,21

60:2,2 61:1,1

62:12,12 68:19

69:11 78:5,16

79:13 85:13,13,17

86:1,9 87:6,21

91:10 93:5,5 94:2

95:6 101:9,9

102:13 104:8

analyses 3:13 7:14

13:17 63:15 73:6

73:11 74:2 89:10

92:15

analysis 3:6,7,8,8

3:10,11,12 7:7,8

7:11,11,12,13,14

10:2 12:22 37:19

37:22 38:2,6,13

38:15 43:16 44:4

44:14,15 45:11,12

46:12 48:5 54:4,8

57:22 58:1,8,15

60:15 62:9 63:10

63:11,16,17,21

64:3 65:2 66:11

67:12,15,21 70:4

70:5 73:5,12,19

73:22 74:10 79:3

79:4,6 80:6,9 84:6

84:7,7 88:20,21

89:5,12 90:6,12

90:14,15,17,22

92:1,2,20 93:3

95:17 96:2,18

98:4,14,19 99:2

99:11 100:2,10,13

101:12,19 102:16

102:20

analytical 10:16

45:15

analyze 92:10 98:8

analyzed 44:19

49:12 58:11 70:18

analyzing 46:8

101:19

and/or 18:21,22

25:18 41:21 65:8

announcements

97:1,18

annual 75:1 84:22

89:6

annually 87:2

answer 32:12 83:6

102:14 103:4

answered 32:19

61:15

answers 61:14

anticipate 8:1

88:12

anybody 6:21

35:17 39:15

104:20 108:4

anyway 20:13

Appliance 2:3 5:12

9:16

appliances 2:7 5:8

9:22

applicable 32:16

42:13

apply 76:16

applying 107:17

Appreciate 25:4

108:7

appreciated 105:21

approach 22:8

47:10,11,12,16

48:5 98:8 99:1,20

approaches 10:16

18:16 100:18

appropriate 54:8,9

59:7 67:1 72:7

76:10 90:5 91:5

92:17

approved 101:15

101:16

area 14:20 51:18

51:19 95:5 96:19

97:6

arena 39:16

AREP 95:4

ASHRAE 11:10,13

15:8,11 16:9,10

16:11 17:8,8

26:14 27:15,17

28:9,12,12,15,16

28:18,21 29:4,18

29:21 30:9,12

31:4,15 33:18

34:12,15 35:20

36:2,3,3 68:21

69:14 78:18,20

101:12 102:16

103:14

asking 21:22 79:19

assemblies 14:1

assess 45:1 92:2

assessing 99:21

assessment 3:6 7:7

38:8 41:14

associated 18:15

22:8 32:6 39:13

70:16 71:6

association 71:14

assume 69:17

assumption 68:1

assumptions 78:12

assure 24:1

atmospheric 26:16

attached 101:5
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audience 107:2

authority 11:7

availability 14:5

38:19 43:21

available 8:18,19

14:12 25:8 47:3

48:2 56:20 57:5

64:14 69:3,9

77:18,21 87:5

94:20 95:12 96:2

103:9

Avenue 1:11

average 65:5,17

66:13,21 75:12

78:7 79:10 80:11

80:12 89:14 90:9

aware 85:3 101:12

Awareness 2:3 5:12

axis 68:4,7,14

a.m 1:12 4:2 108:8

A/C 36:14 93:9,9

B

back 5:2 8:15 15:16

21:20 51:3,4

53:14 68:9 78:10

81:20 94:9 96:17

100:21 101:1,6

106:8,9,20 107:3

107:10

bad 6:18

Ball 74:1

Baltimore 4:13

barometric 17:7

26:12,18 27:7

28:2 30:13,16,20

30:22

bars 8:9

base 89:14

based 29:20 38:16

41:20 45:4,6,16

49:14 61:6 65:15

70:15 73:8,13,16

74:20,22 75:10,19

75:22 76:4 78:8

84:13 85:1 100:13

baseline 43:9 44:20

45:8,21 46:3,9

47:15 49:4,19

59:20 66:14 70:14

71:7,8,18 74:8

basically 27:13

37:12 40:15 52:1

88:3

basis 44:10 78:7

believe 29:8 31:13

32:18 34:5 36:15

42:18 63:2 68:8

78:14 88:16

beneficial 24:9

benefit 96:15

benefits 35:10 89:2

Berkeley 2:5,8 6:4

6:6 63:13

best 8:13 58:14

60:9 105:3

better 36:12 105:6

beyond 57:3

big 82:18 86:7

103:13

bigger 52:6 84:2

biggest 52:1,11,12

Bingyi 2:8 3:9,10

3:12,13 6:5 63:10

63:13 94:18

bit 19:4 44:17 81:6

104:16,17 105:5

blast 107:6

board 52:8

bold 88:12

bonds 76:3

bottom 49:18

bottoms 47:17

boundaries 9:14

box 19:3 22:10 25:4

32:20 70:1

BPM 77:10

break 7:10,11

19:21

breaking 17:22

18:2

break-in 17:5,13

17:13,19,20 18:6

18:10,11,11,12,16

18:17,19,20,22

19:9,12,17 20:11

20:17 21:1,12,14

21:17 22:1

Brenda 6:9

brief 6:19,22

briefly 91:22

bring 37:7

brings 18:4 23:14

27:21

broken 84:10

Brookman 1:12,14

3:2 4:3,12 5:3

6:11,15 11:2 15:3

15:15 19:2,14

20:15 21:3,8,11

22:5 24:2,10,15

24:22 25:3,21

26:8 28:5,19 29:1

30:1,4 31:1,8,18

31:21 32:18 33:8

33:14 34:9,16,18

35:16 36:6,9,20

37:16 38:4 39:10

39:18 40:20 41:8

41:12 42:15 43:4

43:10 44:11 46:13

46:21 47:5 48:12

50:9,16,21 52:14

53:22 54:15 55:2

55:11,16 56:4,14

57:6 58:20 59:5

59:15 60:1,12,22

61:12 62:1,10

63:8 67:2,22

68:16 69:10,22

72:13,17 73:1

76:12 77:4,15

78:2,4 80:20 82:7

83:3,8 84:4 85:12

86:6,12,17 87:4

87:10,12,20 88:11

88:18 90:7 91:8

91:19 92:21 93:4

93:16 94:1,8

95:15 96:16 98:3

99:3,9,22 100:19

100:22 101:21

102:11 103:2,10

104:18 105:14

106:3,15

Brundage 2:2 5:17

5:17 15:3,4,4,14

36:21,22 57:6,7

61:16,17 68:2,6

80:20,21 96:16,17

97:15 99:3,4,4

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51:1,2 53:18

we'll 7:10,20 8:1,2

8:4 9:5 11:2,5

13:17 15:1,17

17:9 20:10 21:20

37:18,21 39:21

45:20 46:8 53:18

64:2,15,20 65:3,9

65:16,18 70:3

73:3 78:21 84:12

85:14 87:7,16

90:16 92:9,9,13

95:16 97:8 99:10

100:20 105:12,22

106:1,14 107:6

we're 4:16 10:16,19

11:4 13:20 15:21

20:16 26:4 30:19

37:9 49:7,17 56:7

63:4 69:19 91:19

104:13 106:1

we've 38:2 61:19

84:9 95:3 107:18

wholesaler 70:22

71:2

wholesalers 71:16

width 14:19

wife 82:10

Williams 2:7 5:7,7

54:16,17 72:19

86:18,18

willing 60:4,6

wing 81:10

wise 82:22

wish 8:14 9:3

wishes 6:22

wonder 51:2

work 69:17 105:12

105:15

worked 41:5

working 8:1 9:5

26:4 29:17 41:22

96:9 106:8

works 36:2 74:14

82:10
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 123

written 62:4 87:17 Y Y 68:4

year 13:3 31:15

55:5 64:19 95:10

97:16

years 12:8,17 13:4

16:16 30:18 31:13

31:16 36:3 75:12

75:13 78:7 79:10

79:13 80:5,10,12

80:13 81:2 83:2

103:14

year's 73:16

yield 76:2

Yolanda 2:7 5:7

54:15,16 72:17,19

86:17,18

Yolanda's 86:13

Yu 2:8 3:9,10,12,13

6:5,5 63:12,13

67:6,18 68:5,8,18

69:2,21 70:3 73:3

77:16 78:3,10

79:12 80:7 84:5

85:16,22 86:22

87:11 88:7,13,19

90:8 91:18 95:16

97:8 98:6 99:10

100:1,20$

$6.2 96:12

$79.1 96:121 1 8:4

1.4 25:5

10 75:12 80:10,12

10:45 108:8

1000 1:11

107 3:15

11 3:5 7:9 79:12,13

80:10

116 31:5

12 40:9

12,000 47:1

12-2 94:10

12:30 7:15

14 42:5 43:11

15 80:4

15,000 47:3 51:5,13

51:20

16 14:18,18 16:9

17:8 26:22 27:6,7

27:9,15 28:4,9,12

28:16,18,22 29:6

30:5,15 31:11,15

31:22 32:3,11

33:2,3,18 34:15

53:3,9,11,13

16-1999 26:14

18 1:8 4:8

1992 11:8,11

1999 11:222

20 75:13 80:13 81:2

20-hour 19:21

2000 65:1

2006 16:22

2007 12:7

2008 11:20 12:18

63:21 64:7,16

2010 62:15 64:22

65:19 66:16

2012 16:4

2013 1:8 4:8 12:21

13:1 101:14,17

103:17

2014 12:17 13:2

104:12,12

21 31:1

239 65:17

25th 104:17 105:4

107:5

3

3 64:19 89:20

30 107:6

310 28:8

310/380 27:3 28:15

310/380-2004 16:2

37 16:10 17:9 27:1

27:6,8,13,17 28:9

28:12,15 31:2,3,4

31:15 32:3,12

33:6 34:17

38 3:6

4

4 3:2 49:3,20 52:7,9

42 14:19 53:3,9

45 3:7

5

5-10 54:1 55:18

5-11 54:1 55:18

5.10 50:18

5.6 16:3,5

5.9 50:17

58 16:12 29:6 30:2

30:5,15 31:11,15

33:3 34:15 6

6.1 70:2

6.1.3 26:13

65 3:9

670 14:207 7 11:20 12:17 89:20

7,000 51:20

72-hour 19:9

75 3:10 18:1

750 93:218 8 26:15 49:7

8E-089 1:11

86 3:12

9

9 3:4

9:00 1:12

9:02 4:2

90.1 11:11 68:21

69:14 101:13,14

101:18 102:16

104:2

93 3:13

95 18:3
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

124

Packaged Terminal A/Cs

US DOE

03-08-13

Washington, DC