### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR PACKAGED TERMINAL AIR CONDITIONERS**  **AND HEAT PUMPS + + + + +**  **PUBLIC MEETING + + + + +**  **MONDAY MARCH 18, 2013** 

**+ + + + + The Public Meeting convened in the**  **Forrestal Building, Room 8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, DC, at**  **9:00 a.m, Doug Brookman, Facilitator, presiding.** 

**PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Facilitator, Pacific**  **Solutions, Inc.**  **JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy RONALD MAJETTE, Department of Energy**  **JENNIFER TIEDEMAN, Department of Energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **ALSO PRESENT KARIM AMRANE, AHRI**  **DONALD BRUNDAGE, Southern Company JON LEMMOND, AHRI**  **JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness Project**  **DAVID RANSOM, McDermott Will & Emery GREG ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory KNUTE SVENSON, Navigant Consulting, Inc.**  **RUSTY THARP, Goodman Manufacturers DETLEF WESTPHALEN, Navigant Consulting, Inc.**  **YOLANDA WILLIAMS, General Electric Appliances and Lighting**  **BINGYI YU, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **TABLE OF CONTENTS Welcome and Introductions, Opening Remarks,**  **Doug Brookman 4 Introduction and Rulemaking Process Overview,**  **Ron Majette 9 Text Procedure Issues, Knute Svenson 11**  **Market and Technology Assessment and Screening Analysis, Knute Svenson 38**  **Engineering Analysis, Knute Svenson 45 Markup Analysis, Energy Use Analysis,**  **Bingyi Yu 65 Life-Cycle Costs and Payback Period**  **Analysis, Bingyi Yu 75 Shipments Analysis and National Impact**  **Analysis, Bingyi Yu 86 NOPR Analyses, Bingyi Yu and**  **Knute Svenson 93 Other Issues and Closing Remarks,**  **Ron Majette 107 Adjourn** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **9:02 a.m.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning** 

### 4 **everyone. Welcome. This is the U.S.** 

### 5 **Department of Energy's Public Meeting on** 

### 6 **Energy Conservation Standards for Packaged** 

### 7 **Terminal Air Conditioners and Heat Pumps.** 

### 8 **Today is Monday, March 18, 2013 here in the** 

### 9 **Forrestal Building at the Department of** 

### 10 **Energy. I'm so glad you could join us this** 

### 11 **morning.** 

### 12 **My name is Doug Brookman, Public** 

### 13 **Solutions in Baltimore. We typically start** 

### 14 **off by doing introductions.** 

### 15 **Actually, I made a mistake** 

### 16 **already. We're going to have welcoming** 

### 17 **remarks from Ron Majette.** 

### 18 **MR. MAJETTE: I just wanted to say** 

### 19 **good morning to everyone and I hope everybody** 

### 20 **had a safe flight in and you got through our** 

### 21 **snow storm without any problems. That's** 

### 22 **about it. I expect this to go nice and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 smooth and friendly and I'm going to turn it**  

### 2 **back over to Doug.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 4 **Introductions then. Your name, organization,** 

### 5 **affiliation. Looks like you know what to do** 

### 6 **with the microphone.** 

### 7 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yolanda Williams** 

### 8 **from G.E. Appliances.** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 10 **Goodman Manufacturing.** 

### 11 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer,** 

### 12 **Appliance Standards Awareness Project.** 

### 13 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, Air** 

### 14 **Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration** 

### 15 **Institute.** 

### 16 **MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond, AHRI.** 

### 17 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage,** 

### 18 **Southern Company.** 

### 19 **MS. TIEDEMAN: Jennifer Tiedeman,** 

### 20 **DOE General Counsel.** 

### 21 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 22 **DOE.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef**  

### 2 **Westphalen, Navigant Consulting.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist,** 

### 4 **Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 5 **MR. YU: Bingyi Yu, Lawrence** 

### 6 **Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 7 **MR. SVENSON: Knute Svenson,** 

### 8 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 9 **MS. EDWARDS: Brenda Edwards,** 

### 10 **Department of Energy.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Would you care to** 

### 12 **introduce yourself?** 

### 13 **MR. RANSOM: Dave Ransom from** 

### 14 **McDermott Will & Emery.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. So glad** 

### 16 **you could make it here this morning and the** 

### 17 **snow started late rather than early, so not** 

### 18 **many people got tangled in bad weather.** 

### 19 **I'm going to do a very brief** 

### 20 **agenda review. Following this agenda review,** 

### 21 **there's an opportunity for anybody that** 

### 22 **wishes to do so to make brief summary**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 statements about issues that matter to them**  

### 2 **here at the outset. And then moving from** 

### 3 **there on there will be an introduction and** 

### 4 **rulemaking process overview. And as** 

### 5 **reflected in the agenda from there, test** 

### 6 **procedure issues and then market technology** 

### 7 **assessment and screening analysis, then** 

### 8 **engineering analysis.** 

### 9 **Somewhere, mid-morning, 11 o'clock** 

### 10 **or so, we'll take a break. And following the** 

### 11 **break, markup analysis, energy use analysis,** 

### 12 **life-cycle costs and payment period analysis,** 

### 13 **shipments analysis, and national impact** 

### 14 **analysis, and then NOPR analyses.** 

### 15 **Round about 12:30 or so whenever** 

### 16 **we get there, other issues and then** 

### 17 **opportunity for individuals to raise one more** 

### 18 **time anything that you think we haven't** 

### 19 **covered sufficiently during the course of the** 

### 20 **meeting today. And then we'll have closing** 

### 21 **remarks.** 

### 22 **So that's the plan for today. We**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 anticipate that we'll be working through the**  

### 2 **morning. We will probably pause, we'll** 

### 3 **probably end before lunch today, even though** 

### 4 **it may be 1 o'clock or so. We'll see.** 

### 5 **I'd ask for your consideration.** 

### 6 **If you would, please, speak one at a time.** 

### 7 **Please say your name for the record each time** 

### 8 **you speak. Keep the focus here if you would.** 

### 9 **Cell phones on silent. Side bars limited,** 

### 10 **please. You're already used to turning the** 

### 11 **microphones on and off. Please be concise.** 

### 12 **Share the air time. I'll be queuing** 

### 13 **individuals by name as best I can to speak.** 

### 14 **I also wish to encourage follow-on comments.** 

### 15 **Sometimes the back and forth is very useful** 

### 16 **for the Department as it reviews this.** 

### 17 **Did I say there will be a complete** 

### 18 **transcript of this meeting available? And** 

### 19 **that will be available in the span of a week** 

### 20 **or so.** 

### 21 **Webinar participants, welcome.** 

### 22 **Glad you could join us. There are many of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 you online. Glad to have you with us.**  

### 2 **Please keep your telephones on mute and if** 

### 3 **you would raise your hand if you wish to** 

### 4 **participate or join the conversation, that's** 

### 5 **been working most of the time. So we'll see** 

### 6 **if we can get you into the conversation here.** 

### 7 **So questions and comments before** 

### 8 **we begin? Okay, so let's begin. Do you want** 

### 9 **to start us off with some introduction and** 

### 10 **overview?** 

### 11 **MR. MAJETTE: All right, good** 

### 12 **morning once again. What I want to do today** 

### 13 **is just make sure that we have all of our** 

### 14 **boundaries and processes and procedures in** 

### 15 **place.** 

### 16 **The Department of Energy Appliance** 

### 17 **and Commercial Equipment Standards Program** 

### 18 **within the Office of Energy Efficiency and** 

### 19 **Renewable Energy's Building Technologies** 

### 20 **Program develops and promulgates test** 

### 21 **procedures and energy conservation standards** 

### 22 **for certain consumer appliances and consumer**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 equipment. The process for developing**  

### 2 **standards involves analysis, public notice,** 

### 3 **and comment and a consultation with** 

### 4 **interested parties. That would be you guys.** 

### 5 **Interested parties includes** 

### 6 **manufacturers, purchasers, energy** 

### 7 **conservation and environmental advocates,** 

### 8 **state and federal agencies, and any groups or** 

### 9 **individuals with an interest in these** 

### 10 **standards and test procedures.** 

### 11 **The purpose of today's document,** 

### 12 **the framework document for packaged terminal** 

### 13 **air conditioners and packaged terminal heat** 

### 14 **pumps, is to determine whether the energy** 

### 15 **conservation standards and the procedures and** 

### 16 **analytical approaches we're thinking about** 

### 17 **using are fair, valid, questionable, whatever** 

### 18 **the case may be.** 

### 19 **So we're using this time here for** 

### 20 **this public meeting to engage the** 

### 21 **stakeholders, get your comments, and for DOE** 

### 22 **to listen and learn as much as possible.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: So I guess we'll** 

### 3 **proceed with the presented material. First,** 

### 4 **we're going to hear from Knute Svenson.** 

### 5 **MR. SVENSON: Okay, I guess we'll** 

### 6 **start here at regulatory history. First off,** 

### 7 **DOE gets its authority from the Energy Policy** 

### 8 **Act of 1992 which established energy** 

### 9 **conservation standards for PTACs and PTHPs** 

### 10 **and corresponding to levels in ASHRAE** 

### 11 **standard 90.1, 1992.** 

### 12 **EPCA, as amended, requires that if** 

### 13 **ASHRAE modifies their standard levels, DOE** 

### 14 **must either adopt these levels or determine** 

### 15 **that a more stringent standard is warranted,** 

### 16 **resulting in significant energy savings,** 

### 17 **whether the level is technologically feasible** 

### 18 **or economically justified.** 

### 19 **DOE last published a final rule** 

### 20 **for PTACs on October 7, 2008, adopting more** 

### 21 **stringent standards for the equipment class** 

### 22 **in response to 1999 levels.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 So DOE set standards for PTACs in**  

### 2 **terms of the energy efficiency ratio, EER,** 

### 3 **for cooling efficiency for PTACs and PTHPs** 

### 4 **and COP, or coefficient of performance, for** 

### 5 **heating efficiency.** 

### 6 **The Energy Independence and** 

### 7 **Security Act of 2007 amended EPCA to mandate** 

### 8 **that no later than six years after the** 

### 9 **issuance of any final rule amending** 

### 10 **efficiency standards, DOE must publish a** 

### 11 **notice of determination that either higher** 

### 12 **standards are not needed -- or notice of** 

### 13 **determination that higher standards are not** 

### 14 **needed or a NOPR proposing amended standards.** 

### 15 **Because of this requirement, DOE is required** 

### 16 **to publish its determination or a NOPR no** 

### 17 **later than October 7, 2014, six years after** 

### 18 **the publication of the 2008 final rule.** 

### 19 **This is a proposed timeline for** 

### 20 **the rulemaking. The framework document will** 

### 21 **be published in February 2013. And so** 

### 22 **projected we have a preliminary analysis**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 coming out November 2013 with a NOPR in**  

### 2 **October 2014. And then a final rule about a** 

### 3 **year later and the compliance date is three** 

### 4 **years after that.** 

### 5 **Here are the seven factors that** 

### 6 **DOE will consider in amending any standards.** 

### 7 **It's our usual seven factors you see in a** 

### 8 **lot of these rulemakings: economic impact on** 

### 9 **consumers and manufacturers; lifetime** 

### 10 **operating cost savings compared to increased** 

### 11 **cost for the product; total projected energy** 

### 12 **savings; impact on utility or performance;** 

### 13 **impact of any lessening of competition; need** 

### 14 **for national energy conservation; and other** 

### 15 **factors the Secretary may considers relevant.** 

### 16 **And on the right hand is all the typical** 

### 17 **analyses that we'll use to cover these** 

### 18 **factors.** 

### 19 **These are the definitions for the** 

### 20 **equipment that we're dealing with today.** 

### 21 **Packaged terminal air conditioner is a "wall** 

### 22 **sleeve and a separate unencased combination**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 of heating and cooling assemblies specified**  

### 2 **by the builder and intended for mounting** 

### 3 **through the wall. It includes a prime source** 

### 4 **of refrigeration, separable outdoor louvers,** 

### 5 **forced ventilation, and heating availability** 

### 6 **by builder's choice of hot water, steam, or** 

### 7 **electricity."** 

### 8 **And packaged terminal heat pump is** 

### 9 **a "packaged terminal air conditioner that** 

### 10 **utilizes reverse cycle refrigeration as its** 

### 11 **prime heat source and should have** 

### 12 **supplementary heat source available to** 

### 13 **builders with the choice of hot water, steam,** 

### 14 **or electric resistant heat."** 

### 15 **These equipment classes divide** 

### 16 **into standard and non-standard size. So** 

### 17 **standard size of a wall opening of greater** 

### 18 **than 16 inches, have a height greater than 16** 

### 19 **inches or a width greater than 42 inches and** 

### 20 **a cross sectional area of over 670 square** 

### 21 **inches. And non-standard size will be less** 

### 22 **than that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 So I think the first thing we'll**  

### 2 **talk about will be test procedures.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage.** 

### 4 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage,** 

### 5 **Southern Company. Just a question on the** 

### 6 **schedule you showed a minute ago. Would** 

### 7 **whether or not the Department accepts or** 

### 8 **rejects the ASHRAE efficiency levels have any** 

### 9 **impact on that schedule, or would they just** 

### 10 **go through with the same schedule and accept** 

### 11 **the ASHRAE?** 

### 12 **MR. CYMBALSKY: The schedule will** 

### 13 **be the same regardless.** 

### 14 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Thank you.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky.** 

### 16 **Thank you. Back to Knute.** 

### 17 **MR. SVENSON: So we'll start off** 

### 18 **with test procedures used. DOE will also be** 

### 19 **conducting a test procedure while making a** 

### 20 **concurrence with the standards rulemaking.** 

### 21 **So we're going to cover a few of these issues** 

### 22 **right now.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 The current DOE test procedure for**  

### 2 **PTACs and PTHPs is AHRI 310/380-2004,** 

### 3 **omitting Section 5.6. This is a recent** 

### 4 **addition with the 2012 final rule. Section** 

### 5 **5.6 deals with the AHRI tolerances within** 

### 6 **that test procedure.** 

### 7 **And then under the umbrella of** 

### 8 **that test procedure, the cooling mode ratings** 

### 9 **are determined with ASHRAE Standard 16 and** 

### 10 **ASHRAE Standard 37 and heating mode ratings** 

### 11 **are determined in accordance with ASHRAE** 

### 12 **Standard 58.** 

### 13 **So a few regulations with regards** 

### 14 **to test procedure. EPCA requires that DOE** 

### 15 **conducts an evaluation of test procedures** 

### 16 **every seven years, and to either prescribe** 

### 17 **amended test procedures or publish a notice** 

### 18 **of determination in the Federal Register to** 

### 19 **not amend the test procedure.** 

### 20 **DOE last evaluated its test** 

### 21 **procedures in accordance with this** 

### 22 **requirement in 2006, and so will do so in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 parallel with the energy conservation**  

### 2 **standards rulemaking.** 

### 3 **So DOE identified five potential** 

### 4 **issues regarding the PTAC/PTHP test procedure** 

### 5 **and those are break-in time, sealing between** 

### 6 **wall sleeve and dividing wall, water in** 

### 7 **condensate pan, barometric pressure** 

### 8 **adjustment, ASHRAE Standard 16 versus ASHRAE** 

### 9 **Standard 37. And we'll get into more details** 

### 10 **in the next slides and opportunities for** 

### 11 **comment.** 

### 12 **So the first issue I'd like to** 

### 13 **talk about is the break-in time. Break-in** 

### 14 **refers to the operation of equipment prior to** 

### 15 **testing to cause preliminary wear on the** 

### 16 **compressor and its components to improve** 

### 17 **measured performance.** 

### 18 **DOE currently does not have a** 

### 19 **standard break-in time for PTACs and PTHPs.** 

### 20 **Adequate break-in time through its retest** 

### 21 **studies may depend on time and the ambient** 

### 22 **temperature. So breaking in equipment at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 room temperature at 75 degrees may take**  

### 2 **longer than breaking in equipment at elevated** 

### 3 **temperatures, say around 95 degrees.** 

### 4 **That brings us to our first** 

### 5 **comment. DOE requests detailed test data** 

### 6 **supporting the selection of specific break-in** 

### 7 **time necessary for this equipment to achieve** 

### 8 **a steady state performance level. How much** 

### 9 **improvement in efficiency can typically be** 

### 10 **expected using a full break-in period versus** 

### 11 **no break-in period. How the break-in period** 

### 12 **varies with break-in conditions such as** 

### 13 **temperature.** 

### 14 **And DOE also requests information** 

### 15 **regarding the test burden associated with a** 

### 16 **given break-in period and approaches that may** 

### 17 **accelerate break-in using elevated ambient** 

### 18 **room temperatures. DOE also requests comment** 

### 19 **on whether a break-in period should be** 

### 20 **optional or required, and whether break-in** 

### 21 **parameters such as the minimum and/or maximum** 

### 22 **break-in times and/or temperatures should be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 specified.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: So that comment** 

### 3 **box, a lot of content there. I hope we can** 

### 4 **get quite a bit of information at this point.** 

### 5 **Rusty, you look like you're ready.** 

### 6 **MR. THARP: I don't have anything** 

### 7 **specific on this. Most of my experience is** 

### 8 **in residential product and I know with scroll** 

### 9 **compressors, a 72-hour break-in period is** 

### 10 **pretty common. I'm not positive since most** 

### 11 **of this product typically uses rotary** 

### 12 **compressors. I'm not sure what the break-in** 

### 13 **period for rotary compressors is.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Karim?** 

### 15 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.** 

### 16 **I guess I have a more fundamental question.** 

### 17 **What's the purpose of the break-in period for** 

### 18 **this proceeding, for this rulemaking?** 

### 19 **MR. SVENSON: Well, I guess** 

### 20 **there's been a question on NOPR commercial** 

### 21 **equipment. DOE made optional 20-hour break** 

### 22 **in period and I guess it goes in line with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 the way those things are tested. That you run**  

### 2 **the equipment for a certain time before you** 

### 3 **start the official test procedure in order to** 

### 4 **achieve some kind of maximum efficiency** 

### 5 **level.** 

### 6 **MR. AMRANE: So my understanding,** 

### 7 **it's tested with enforcement. It has nothing** 

### 8 **to do with this rulemaking, right? I mean** 

### 9 **when DOE wants to do an enforcement testing,** 

### 10 **DOE will have to test according to -- we'll** 

### 11 **have to use this break-in period? Is this** 

### 12 **what it is? I mean it is not something that** 

### 13 **manufacturers will be required to do anyway,** 

### 14 **right? I just want to understand.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky.** 

### 16 **MR. CYMBALSKY: We're just taking** 

### 17 **comment on whether or not this break-in** 

### 18 **period is something the industry feels is** 

### 19 **reasonable or not for the test procedure in** 

### 20 **general. Once it's in the test procedure, it** 

### 21 **gets used for every purpose, not just** 

### 22 **enforcement. Just taking comment on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 break-in period. Feel free -- if you have a**  

### 2 **comment, that would be great.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't get your** 

### 4 **name as you were introduced previously. Say** 

### 5 **your name, please?** 

### 6 **MR. RANSOM: David Ransom,** 

### 7 **McDermott, Will & Emery.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have a** 

### 9 **comment?** 

### 10 **MR. RANSOM: I have no comment.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So no** 

### 12 **comments on whether break-in time is** 

### 13 **necessary, nor how much improvement the** 

### 14 **break-in period might afford.** 

### 15 **Yes, Karim.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: If I may, yes, a** 

### 17 **break-in time is probably necessary. I mean** 

### 18 **I think this is typically used, you know, a** 

### 19 **certification program when we test product.** 

### 20 **And we'll get back to DOE with a specific** 

### 21 **recommendation on time. I just wanted to** 

### 22 **understand why are we asking the question and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 why the break-in period is part of the test**  

### 2 **procedure. My opinion, it's something that** 

### 3 **should be outside of the test procedure. But** 

### 4 **that's fine.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. As you can** 

### 6 **see, typically we would receive some comments** 

### 7 **surrounding the test burden per unit** 

### 8 **associated with an approach like this. Any** 

### 9 **comments on testing burden? No additional** 

### 10 **comments on this comment box. Okay.** 

### 11 **MR. SVENSON: So I'll talk about** 

### 12 **the second and third issues. The second** 

### 13 **issue is the sealing between the wall sleeve** 

### 14 **of the PTAC and the test facility dividing** 

### 15 **wall. This sealing will prevent air/heat** 

### 16 **leakage from the outdoor test chamber into** 

### 17 **the indoor test chamber external to the PTAC** 

### 18 **wall sleeve. Test labs don't usually build** 

### 19 **PTAC wall sleeves into the dividing wall.** 

### 20 **However, in the field, PTACs are usually** 

### 21 **installed like in hotels and motels with the** 

### 22 **sealant around the wall sleeve.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 The third issue is adding water to**  

### 2 **the condensate drain pan. PTAC, some PTACs** 

### 3 **will transfer the condensate water from the** 

### 4 **evaporator side to the condenser side to help** 

### 5 **cool the condenser and prevent heat transfer.** 

### 6 **Adding water into that condensate drain pan** 

### 7 **may improve or may reduce the time, the** 

### 8 **stabilization time for testing.** 

### 9 **DOE requests comment about the** 

### 10 **type of water that could have an effect on** 

### 11 **the heat performance of the unit, whether the** 

### 12 **water is distilled water or just regular city** 

### 13 **water that might have dissolved solids in it.** 

### 14 **That brings us to our second of** 

### 15 **two comments. I'll just talk about the first** 

### 16 **comment for now. DOE requests comment** 

### 17 **regarding the potential requirements for** 

### 18 **sealing leakage gaps between the PTAC wall** 

### 19 **sleeve and the test facility partition during** 

### 20 **testing. DOE also requests comment regarding** 

### 21 **whether any additional set-up requirements** 

### 22 **should be included in the test procedure to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 assure accurate and repeatable testing.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty.** 

### 3 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 4 **Goodman. Goodman Manufacturing would always** 

### 5 **been a proponent of doing anything in the** 

### 6 **test procedure to minimize variability and** 

### 7 **anything we can add to reduce the variability** 

### 8 **from laboratory to laboratory would be very** 

### 9 **beneficial.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Does that mean** 

### 11 **you're endorsing sealing the potential** 

### 12 **leakage gap?** 

### 13 **MR. THARP: Yes, we would be a** 

### 14 **proponent of sealing any leakages.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And what** 

### 16 **about additional set-up time requirements** 

### 17 **since I've got you on the hook here?** 

### 18 **MR. THARP: I don't think it would** 

### 19 **be a significant amount of additional time** 

### 20 **relative to the total testing that has to be** 

### 21 **done.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 MR. THARP: To take the time to**  

### 2 **seal the leakage.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 4 **Appreciate it. You can see the comment box** 

### 5 **1.4.** 

### 6 **Knute?** 

### 7 **MR. SVENSON: Next comment, DOE** 

### 8 **requests any available test data that would** 

### 9 **indicate whether use of city water to prefill** 

### 10 **the condensate pans would affect capacity or** 

### 11 **efficiency measurements as compared with no** 

### 12 **prefilling or with the use of distilled** 

### 13 **water. DOE requests comment regarding the** 

### 14 **amount of time and labor hours saved during** 

### 15 **testing by prefilling the condensate pan.** 

### 16 **Finally, DOE requests comment on whether** 

### 17 **prefilling of the condensate pan should be** 

### 18 **allowed and/or required, and whether there is** 

### 19 **any need to require certification reports to** 

### 20 **indicate whether this step was taken.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please. Jon.** 

### 22 **MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond, AHRI.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 During AHRI testing, manufacturers would**  

### 2 **prefer to pre-fill the condensate pan. And** 

### 3 **I've heard preferences for using distilled** 

### 4 **water for that. We're working on collecting** 

### 5 **data to see how much added time or how that** 

### 6 **would change performance, but we don't have** 

### 7 **that information yet.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 9 **Additional comments on these two sets of** 

### 10 **issues?** 

### 11 **MR. SVENSON: So the fourth and** 

### 12 **fifth. The fourth one is the barometric** 

### 13 **pressure correction. And Section 6.1.3 of** 

### 14 **ASHRAE 16-1999, manufacturers can increase** 

### 15 **their cooling capacity by .8 percent for each** 

### 16 **inch of mercury below standard atmospheric** 

### 17 **pressure. DOE currently has no test data to** 

### 18 **verify that the barometric pressure has a** 

### 19 **significant impact on the measured efficiency** 

### 20 **of PTACs and PTHPs.** 

### 21 **And the fifth issue is the** 

### 22 **difference between Standard 16 and Standard**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 37. Both of these test procedures are**  

### 2 **allowed for measuring cooling capacity** 

### 3 **performance according to AHRI 310/380.** 

### 4 **We have a table here that kind of** 

### 5 **shows the main differences between Standard** 

### 6 **16 and Standard 37. For instance, Standard** 

### 7 **16 has its barometric pressure adjustment we** 

### 8 **just talked about, but Standard 37 doesn't.** 

### 9 **Standard 16, the main way that they measure** 

### 10 **the cooling capacity is by measuring the heat** 

### 11 **input into the test chamber to counteract the** 

### 12 **cooling power of the unit. Whereas, Standard** 

### 13 **37 basically measures the enthalpy difference** 

### 14 **that goes through the evaporator coil.** 

### 15 **ASHRAE Standard 16 doesn't eliminate air** 

### 16 **recirculation because it's not a ducted unit.** 

### 17 **However, ASHRAE Standard 37 would** 

### 18 **eliminate this air recirculation. And** 

### 19 **there's also a difference in the tolerances** 

### 20 **for the electric power measurement.** 

### 21 **So that brings us to the next two** 

### 22 **comments. DOE requests detailed test data**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 that would show the relationship between**  

### 2 **barometric pressure and cooling capacity or** 

### 3 **efficiency measurements for PTACs and PTHPs** 

### 4 **tested using Standard 16.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just pause** 

### 6 **there. Karim?** 

### 7 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.** 

### 8 **It is true that AHRI 310 references two** 

### 9 **ASHRAE tests 16 and 37. However, when we** 

### 10 **look at what we do in our certification** 

### 11 **program to which standard we test to, we test** 

### 12 **to ASHRAE 16, not ASHRAE 37. So again, we** 

### 13 **understand there are two referenced test** 

### 14 **procedures, but we intend to revise AHRI** 

### 15 **310/380 to remove the reference to ASHRAE 37** 

### 16 **and leave only ASHRAE 16 which is really what** 

### 17 **we are using today. So our preference would** 

### 18 **be to use -- to stick with ASHRAE 16.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Joanna.** 

### 20 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Karim,** 

### 21 **do you know whether ASHRAE is considering** 

### 22 **revising Standard 16 or is in the process of?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty.**  

### 2 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 3 **Goodman Manufacturing. One of the comments I** 

### 4 **was going to make is right now ASHRAE is** 

### 5 **presently in the process of revising both** 

### 6 **Standard 16 and Standard 58. They are in the** 

### 7 **process of actually combining those two** 

### 8 **standards into one and actually, I believe** 

### 9 **they will actually allow both the indoor air** 

### 10 **enthalpy method or the calorimeter method and** 

### 11 **those meetings are actually typically hosted** 

### 12 **by General Electric. But they are happening** 

### 13 **every two weeks on Wednesday. And it would** 

### 14 **be great if we could get the Department of** 

### 15 **Energy and others to participate in those** 

### 16 **revisions. And that is something that I** 

### 17 **would be a proponent of is everybody working** 

### 18 **together to get these ASHRAE standards** 

### 19 **updated and then any new standard** 

### 20 **efficiencies and DOE test procedures be based** 

### 21 **off the newest and latest and greatest ASHRAE** 

### 22 **standards.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: And just for those**  

### 2 **of us that don't know, what does 58 cover?** 

### 3 **MR. THARP: Heat pumps.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Heat pumps, okay;** 

### 5 **16 and 58, you say. Okay.** 

### 6 **Other comments here? Joanna.** 

### 7 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Rusty,** 

### 8 **thanks very much for that information. Do** 

### 9 **you know whether the ASHRAE Committee is** 

### 10 **considering this correction factor in the** 

### 11 **revision to --** 

### 12 **MR. THARP: Yes, ASHRAE is** 

### 13 **planning on continuing with the barometric** 

### 14 **pressure adjustment for the calorimeter** 

### 15 **method in 16 and 58. And I also do know that** 

### 16 **other AHRI standards do have a barometric** 

### 17 **adjustment and in the unitary small product** 

### 18 **that I've dealt mostly with over the years,** 

### 19 **we're internally discussing what type of** 

### 20 **barometric adjustment should be included, but** 

### 21 **we feel there should be some sort of** 

### 22 **adjustment for barometric pressure.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Since Slide 21**  

### 2 **references Standard 37, can you say what's** 

### 3 **going on with Standard 37? Is that also --** 

### 4 **MR. THARP: Yes, I can. ASHRAE 37** 

### 5 **is also being revised as is 116 and the first** 

### 6 **meetings of those happened at the Dallas** 

### 7 **meetings in January.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: What is the** 

### 9 **duration of this kind of a proceeding** 

### 10 **typically?** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: Actually, 16 and 58** 

### 12 **have been in revision process for a couple of** 

### 13 **years. And I think that I believe they** 

### 14 **expect to have the completion some time later** 

### 15 **this year for ASHRAE 16 and 58. And 37 just** 

### 16 **started, so it's probably a couple of years** 

### 17 **before that will be completed.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: That's most** 

### 19 **helpful. Thank you.** 

### 20 **MR. THARP: You're welcome.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you queue** 

### 22 **up 16, Knute?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 MR. SVENSON: DOE would also**  

### 2 **request any data that would show whether** 

### 3 **Standard 16 as compared with Standard 37** 

### 4 **results in any significant differences in** 

### 5 **measured cooling capacity or efficiency.** 

### 6 **Also, test burden associated with each of** 

### 7 **these test methods including labor hours,** 

### 8 **total test time, and the cost of the required** 

### 9 **test facilities. DOE also requests** 

### 10 **information on whether manufacturers** 

### 11 **generally rate their equipment to Standard 16** 

### 12 **or 37. I think we got the answer for that.** 

### 13 **And finally, DOE requests comment** 

### 14 **on whether one of these test procedures** 

### 15 **should be selected as a test procedure** 

### 16 **applicable to the equipment. So we choose** 

### 17 **one or the other.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: I believe we** 

### 19 **answered that one as well. So having slogged** 

### 20 **through that comment box, are there any** 

### 21 **additional comments?** 

### 22 **MR. WESTPHALEN: I guess there was**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 some discussion about AHRI moving to Standard**  

### 2 **16, but there was also a mention that the** 

### 3 **combined 16 and 58 will allow both** 

### 4 **calorimetric and psychometric, so in the** 

### 5 **psychometric version of that is certainly** 

### 6 **very similar to 37, so I think the question** 

### 7 **is still valid.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Do you** 

### 9 **want to pose a specific question, Detlef?** 

### 10 **MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, in terms of** 

### 11 **the test burden differences between the** 

### 12 **calorimetric and the psychometric measurement** 

### 13 **and the accuracy differences, etcetera.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Rusty.** 

### 15 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from** 

### 16 **Goodman Manufacturing. That would be the** 

### 17 **case if it does go through with allowing a** 

### 18 **psychometric method in ASHRAE 16. There** 

### 19 **would still be differences obviously in the** 

### 20 **set-up time. As far as what they are, I** 

### 21 **can't speak to that. I don't have enough** 

### 22 **experience in this realm to know what exactly**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 what the differences are for that type of**  

### 2 **product. But it would be something that** 

### 3 **would need to be addressed. I think to my** 

### 4 **understanding most, as Karim mentioned** 

### 5 **already, most in the AHRI realm, I believe,** 

### 6 **and most that I've dealt with, the minor** 

### 7 **dealings I've had with it, typically use the** 

### 8 **calorimeter method.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: And Rusty, since** 

### 10 **you've been so helpful here, we should** 

### 11 **probably clarify what your role in these** 

### 12 **ASHRAE updates. Are you in a leadership role** 

### 13 **or are you just a participant or what?** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: I am a participant, a** 

### 15 **nonvoting participant in ASHRAE 16 and 58.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 17 **MR. THARP: As well as 37.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Do you** 

### 19 **have any other specific questions on this,** 

### 20 **Knute? No.** 

### 21 **Joanna.** 

### 22 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 wanted to raise a higher level test procedure**  

### 2 **issue which is that the metric for this** 

### 3 **equipment for measuring cooling efficiency** 

### 4 **EER doesn't capture part-load efficiency.** 

### 5 **And I would imagine that this equipment is** 

### 6 **operating at part-load the majority of the** 

### 7 **time. And there may be technology such as** 

### 8 **variable speed compressors that could achieve** 

### 9 **significant energy savings in the field and** 

### 10 **yet, the benefits of those technologies won't** 

### 11 **be captured or won't be fully captured using** 

### 12 **the current test procedure. So we would** 

### 13 **encourage DOE to consider a new metric for** 

### 14 **this equipment that would capture part-load** 

### 15 **performance.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, Rusty, I don't** 

### 17 **want to put you or anybody else on the spot.** 

### 18 **Is part-load efficiency something that could** 

### 19 **be considered in the context of these** 

### 20 **existing ASHRAE standards?** 

### 21 **Karim?** 

### 22 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 Anything can be considered, but you have to**  

### 2 **understand how ASHRAE works as well. This is** 

### 3 **going to take years for ASHRAE. ASHRAE has to** 

### 4 **restart and look at part-loads. I don't** 

### 5 **think it's going to happen for this time.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: That's not slated** 

### 7 **to begin.** 

### 8 **MR. AMRANE: Exactly.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: At this moment.** 

### 10 **MR. AMRANE: As far as part-load,** 

### 11 **I do not know if manufacturers can talk** 

### 12 **better on the product, but it is not really -** 

### 13 **- it's not like a roof-top unit or even like** 

### 14 **a residential A/C. I think those PTACS run** 

### 15 **most of the time, I believe at full load.** 

### 16 **They don't run at part load. So yes, maybe** 

### 17 **you can come up with some designs to reach** 

### 18 **its capacity, but again, I don't think it's** 

### 19 **current practice in the industry.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Don, do you have a** 

### 21 **comment? Don Brundage?** 

### 22 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Well, I think if**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 you start talking about part-load efficiency,**  

### 2 **you deal with issues that come up with a lot** 

### 3 **of other HVAC things which is climate. If** 

### 4 **you start to talk about anything outside of** 

### 5 **the coupled temperature rating conditions,** 

### 6 **then you really -- any sort of seasonal or** 

### 7 **actual efficiency factor, you start to bring** 

### 8 **in climate.** 

### 9 **We pushed for -- we're trying to** 

### 10 **get some sort of regional efficiency** 

### 11 **standards over on residential standards and** 

### 12 **PTACs are basically, they're hotel-type** 

### 13 **units. They would also be subject to local** 

### 14 **climate. But it's a more complex issue than** 

### 15 **just doing a part-load efficiency I think.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 17 **MR. SVENSON: So that deals with** 

### 18 **the test procedures used. So now we'll go** 

### 19 **into the analysis that will be done for the** 

### 20 **energy conservation standards rulemaking.** 

### 21 **So first we'll talk about the** 

### 22 **market and technology screening analysis.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 You can see on the diagram it's the first**  

### 2 **analysis that we've done for the energy** 

### 3 **conservation.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Slow down just a** 

### 5 **tad, okay?** 

### 6 **MR. SVENSON: The first analysis.** 

### 7 **So the purpose of the market and technology** 

### 8 **assessment is to characterize the structure** 

### 9 **of the equipment industry to determine** 

### 10 **equipment classes, efficiencies,** 

### 11 **manufacturers, and shipments and to identify** 

### 12 **technology options to improve efficiency.** 

### 13 **In the screening analysis, we will** 

### 14 **screen out technology options that DOE will** 

### 15 **not consider in the engineering analysis** 

### 16 **based on technological feasibility,** 

### 17 **practicability to manufacture, install, and** 

### 18 **service; adverse impacts on utility to** 

### 19 **consumers or availability; and adverse** 

### 20 **impacts on health or safety.** 

### 21 **So here's the list of stakeholders** 

### 22 **that DOE preliminarily put together. You can**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 read through it. DOE seeks comment**  

### 2 **concerning any entities that should be added** 

### 3 **to this list or even removed from this list.** 

### 4 **In particular, additional manufacturers,** 

### 5 **small business manufacturers, purchasers, and** 

### 6 **energy conservation and environmental** 

### 7 **advocates.** 

### 8 **I don't know if you want to use** 

### 9 **the time to look through the list.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty?** 

### 11 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 12 **Goodman. The only thing, in other** 

### 13 **rulemakings I've been associated with is** 

### 14 **typically users. I don't know what type of** 

### 15 **users would be -- I don't see anybody in the** 

### 16 **user arena. That would probably be good to** 

### 17 **get added to the list.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional** 

### 19 **thoughts on entities to be added, gaps in the** 

### 20 **list? Okay.** 

### 21 **MR. SVENSON: So next we'll talk** 

### 22 **about equipment classes. DOE typically**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 divides covered equipment into classes by the**  

### 2 **type of energy used; the capacity of the** 

### 3 **product, or other performance-related** 

### 4 **features to justify different standard levels** 

### 5 **such as features affecting consumer utility.** 

### 6 **DOE establishes separate energy** 

### 7 **conservation standards for each equipment** 

### 8 **class. And in the most recent rulemaking,** 

### 9 **DOE established 12 equipment classes for** 

### 10 **PTACs and PTHPs. DOE tentatively expects to** 

### 11 **maintain these same equipment classes for** 

### 12 **this rulemaking.** 

### 13 **And here's a table showing the** 

### 14 **current equipment classes for this equipment,** 

### 15 **basically dividing air conditioners, heap** 

### 16 **pump, standard, non-standard size and three** 

### 17 **different capacity sizes. So DOE requests** 

### 18 **feedback on the equipment classes shown here** 

### 19 **covered under this rulemaking.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: So the purpose** 

### 21 **here, in part at least, would be to -- for** 

### 22 **these classes to reflect standard practice,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 right?**  

### 2 **Comments on these proposed** 

### 3 **classes? Karim?** 

### 4 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.** 

### 5 **I think that they've worked pretty well in** 

### 6 **the past. I don't see a need to change that** 

### 7 **at the moment.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 9 **Rusty?** 

### 10 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 11 **Goodman. Just echoing AHRI comment.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 13 **MR. SVENSON: So next is** 

### 14 **technology assessment. This centers on** 

### 15 **understanding how equipment uses energy and** 

### 16 **what measures can be taken to reduce energy** 

### 17 **consumption of PTACs and PTHPs.** 

### 18 **Measures that could improve the** 

### 19 **energy efficiency of PTACs and PTHPs are** 

### 20 **called technology options, which are based on** 

### 21 **technologies used in existing products and/or** 

### 22 **working prototypes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 DOE studies these technology**  

### 2 **options by reviewing manufacturer catalogs,** 

### 3 **trade publications, technical journals, and** 

### 4 **patent filings.** 

### 5 **DOE identified 14 technologies for** 

### 6 **improving the efficiency of PTACs and PTHPs.** 

### 7 **These are generally the same list that we** 

### 8 **used in the previous PTAC rulemaking as shown** 

### 9 **here. You can read through the list.** 

### 10 **What technologies or designs, if** 

### 11 **any, should be added to the above list? If** 

### 12 **certain changes to the list are not** 

### 13 **applicable to all equipment classes, what** 

### 14 **equipment classes are affected?** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Technology options.** 

### 16 **Joanna?** 

### 17 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I** 

### 18 **believe that in the past rulemaking DOE may** 

### 19 **have evaluated micro-groove heat exchangers** 

### 20 **in addition to micro-channel heat exchangers.** 

### 21 **Are micro-groove heat exchangers being** 

### 22 **considered as potential technology?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 MR. SVENSON: I'm not sure what**  

### 2 **happened in the past, but we certainly add** 

### 3 **that to the list for this rulemaking.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty.** 

### 5 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 6 **Goodman. The micro-groove, that's internally** 

### 7 **to being an enhancement. That's typically** 

### 8 **used in product today. So that would be more** 

### 9 **baseline efficiency.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Quite a few items** 

### 11 **there listed, 14 different technology** 

### 12 **options. Comments on these and particularly** 

### 13 **what might be missing? Nothing additional.** 

### 14 **Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. SVENSON: Next is screening** 

### 16 **analysis. DOE will consider each technology** 

### 17 **in light of the four screening criteria as we** 

### 18 **mentioned before: technological feasibility;** 

### 19 **practicability to manufacture, install, and** 

### 20 **service; adverse effects on product utility** 

### 21 **or availability; and adverse effects on** 

### 22 **health and safety.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 The technology options that pass**  

### 2 **through the four screening criteria are** 

### 3 **called design options. These options will be** 

### 4 **considered in the engineering analysis as** 

### 5 **ways to improve the energy efficiency.** 

### 6 **So DOE welcomes comments on the** 

### 7 **above four criteria. In addition, DOE** 

### 8 **requests comment on which technology options** 

### 9 **should be screened out, and which screening** 

### 10 **criteria would be the basis of the screening.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here.** 

### 12 **Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. SVENSON: Next comes the** 

### 14 **engineering analysis. The engineering** 

### 15 **analysis is about five steps. I'll go** 

### 16 **through them a little quickly and cover them** 

### 17 **in more detail a little bit later. The first** 

### 18 **step, DOE will choose equipment classes to be** 

### 19 **analyzed and their representative capacity** 

### 20 **size. Then next, DOE will identify baseline** 

### 21 **efficiency levels for each representative** 

### 22 **equipment class that will serve as a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 reference point to assess changes due to more**  

### 2 **stringent standards.** 

### 3 **Then DOE will identify higher** 

### 4 **efficiency levels of replacement based on** 

### 5 **design options. Next, DOE will develop** 

### 6 **candidate standard levels based on the higher** 

### 7 **efficiency levels identified ranging from the** 

### 8 **baseline technology to the maximum** 

### 9 **technologically feasible level. And next DOE** 

### 10 **will come up with a cost efficiency curve** 

### 11 **with the results of the engineering analysis** 

### 12 **that we passed on to the downstream analysis.** 

### 13 **So the first two steps, DOE choose** 

### 14 **representative equipment size to concentrate** 

### 15 **its analytical efforts. DOE selects** 

### 16 **representative equipment size based on high** 

### 17 **market volumes or unique performance** 

### 18 **characteristics. DOE tentatively selected** 

### 19 **four equipment sizes as representative which** 

### 20 **we'll show on the next slide. DOE also will** 

### 21 **select a baseline efficiency level for each** 

### 22 **of those representative capacity sizes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 Typically what's done, DOE will choose the**  

### 2 **minimum federal efficiency level as the** 

### 3 **baseline level which we have done in this** 

### 4 **rulemaking as well.** 

### 5 **So here's a table showing in the** 

### 6 **second column the representative cooling** 

### 7 **capacity for each of the four equipment** 

### 8 **classes we'll be analyzing directly and the** 

### 9 **baseline efficiency level.** 

### 10 **DOE requests feedback on the** 

### 11 **suggested representative cooling capacities** 

### 12 **for PTACs and PTHPs for direct analysis.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty.** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 15 **Goodman. Just typically for each product** 

### 16 **type the largest size is quite often the** 

### 17 **hardest to achieve the efficiency** 

### 18 **requirements. I think it might be a good** 

### 19 **idea to include the largest size possible to** 

### 20 **sort of get the max efficiency for that size.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 22 **MR. SVENSON: That would be like**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 12,000 BTUs or even higher?**  

### 2 **MR. THARP: I think there's a lot** 

### 3 **of 15,000 BTU product available and that's** 

### 4 **where the line maxes out.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 6 **Additional comments on the representative** 

### 7 **cooling capacities? No additional comments.** 

### 8 **Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. SVENSON: DOE plans to use the** 

### 10 **efficiency-level approach in combination with** 

### 11 **a cost-assessment approach. The efficiency** 

### 12 **level approach establishes the relationship** 

### 13 **between a manufacturer cost and increased** 

### 14 **efficiency at predetermined efficiency levels** 

### 15 **above the baseline. In the cost-assessment** 

### 16 **approach, DOE will disassemble physical units** 

### 17 **and reverse-engineer to determine a "bottoms** 

### 18 **up" cost estimate.** 

### 19 **In identifying more efficient** 

### 20 **PTACs and PTHPs, DOE will use the AHRI** 

### 21 **Database of Certified Product Performance and** 

### 22 **manufacturers' websites to get the efficiency**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 information. The max-tech efficiency level**  

### 2 **will be that of the most efficient available** 

### 3 **model from these sources.** 

### 4 **DOE requests feedback on the use** 

### 5 **of a combined analysis approach that uses** 

### 6 **multiple information sources to determine the** 

### 7 **relationship between manufacturing selling** 

### 8 **price and energy consumption of PTACs and** 

### 9 **PTHPs.** 

### 10 **Any comments on where we get our** 

### 11 **efficiency information?** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here.** 

### 13 **Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. SVENSON: The current federal** 

### 15 **energy conservation standard for this** 

### 16 **equipment are a set of equations that define** 

### 17 **the EER or COP as a function of the** 

### 18 **equipment's cooling capacity. Shown here is** 

### 19 **a table of those equations for the equipment** 

### 20 **sizes.** 

### 21 **So DOE is planning to evaluate the** 

### 22 **same efficiency levels for PTHPs as for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 PTACs. For standard size PTACs and PTHPs,**  

### 2 **DOE is planning on setting efficiency levels** 

### 3 **at 4 percent EER increments above the** 

### 4 **existing baseline standard for PTACs.** 

### 5 **In the fourth bullet, for non** 

### 6 **standard size PTACs and PTHPs, DOE is using** 

### 7 **the same method except we're using 8 percent** 

### 8 **increments. And then for PTHPs for heat** 

### 9 **pumps, DOE is planning to select COP levels** 

### 10 **that correspond to each EER level by** 

### 11 **calculating the median COP level for each EER** 

### 12 **level that's analyzed.** 

### 13 **As shown here is a preliminary** 

### 14 **graph based on the models that we found on** 

### 15 **the market now. We plotted them on the EER** 

### 16 **versus cooling capacity curve to give an** 

### 17 **idea, more visual idea of what we're doing.** 

### 18 **So the bottom two lines are the current** 

### 19 **baseline efficiency standards for PTACs and** 

### 20 **PTHPs and then each line above that is a 4** 

### 21 **percent increment and standard. You can see** 

### 22 **where all the products currently fall and are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 now on the market. So this is for standard**  

### 2 **size PTACs and PTHPs. And this is for non** 

### 3 **standard size PTACs and PTHPs.** 

### 4 **First bullet, DOE requests** 

### 5 **feedback on DOE's method of correlating COP** 

### 6 **with EER levels. Specifically, DOE requests** 

### 7 **data on possible correlations between COP and** 

### 8 **EER.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 10 **MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond, AHRI.** 

### 11 **AHRI has said if the PTAC efficient EER** 

### 12 **levels are raised, they should be to that of** 

### 13 **the level for PTHPs. Is that clear? So if** 

### 14 **the PTAC levels, EER levels are raised, they** 

### 15 **should meet the PTHP levels.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 17 **Additional comments on 5.9 before we move to** 

### 18 **5.10?** 

### 19 **MR. SVENSON: Detlef has a** 

### 20 **comment.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please,** 

### 22 **Detlef.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 MR. WESTPHALEN: Hi, Detlef**  

### 2 **Westphalen, Navigant Consulting. I wonder if** 

### 3 **you could go back to the standard size plot** 

### 4 **there. And I want to go back to Rusty's** 

### 5 **comment about the 15,000 being a good** 

### 6 **representative being at the high end. If I** 

### 7 **look at this plot in light of the slope of** 

### 8 **the EER line versus capacity, it would seem** 

### 9 **that the smaller sizes have a harder time** 

### 10 **meeting the standard efficiency levels or the** 

### 11 **suggested levels. So I just want to perhaps** 

### 12 **get some comment on whether you would** 

### 13 **reconsider the 15,000 in light of the data** 

### 14 **that we see there?** 

### 15 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 16 **Goodman Manufacturing. Typically, because** 

### 17 **the PTACs typically all have the same face** 

### 18 **area, the same physical size, you can't get** 

### 19 **the same heat transfer square feet area per** 

### 20 **ton in a 15,000 BTU as you do a 7,000 BTU.** 

### 21 **So that was the primary reason for my** 

### 22 **comment. The physical size of the unit is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 basically set and that's the biggest unit is**  

### 2 **the one that's going to be hardest to get the** 

### 3 **highest efficiency for that particular size,** 

### 4 **if that makes sense. Just because if you** 

### 5 **look at the general trend is a decrease as** 

### 6 **you get bigger, so if you're given a** 

### 7 **particular size, if you're trying to go 4** 

### 8 **percent across the board, you may be able to** 

### 9 **get 4 percent increase on smaller sizes, but** 

### 10 **you probably can't get the same percentage** 

### 11 **increase on the biggest size. So that's why** 

### 12 **I was suggesting also evaluating the biggest** 

### 13 **size.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Karim.** 

### 15 **MR. AMRANE: Yes, Karim, AHRI. I** 

### 16 **have a question about the graph here. All** 

### 17 **the points below the curves are really PTACs** 

### 18 **below the federal minimum standards is what** 

### 19 **you say?** 

### 20 **MR. SVENSON: I said predominantly** 

### 21 **those are information I got from the** 

### 22 **manufacturing websites and I think they're**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 typically, I guess, built to order PTACs that**  

### 2 **aren't necessarily the standard size PTAC.** 

### 3 **It can actually be larger than the 16 and 42.** 

### 4 **MR. AMRANE: Standard size you** 

### 5 **said, right?** 

### 6 **MR. SVENSON: It's the standard** 

### 7 **size.** 

### 8 **MR. AMRANE: So it should be the** 

### 9 **16 by 42.** 

### 10 **MR. SVENSON: These are larger** 

### 11 **than 16.** 

### 12 **MR. AMRANE: So they're larger** 

### 13 **than 16. Okay. All right.** 

### 14 **MR. SVENSON: I'll have to go back** 

### 15 **and check exactly what models they were.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: Okay. I think we** 

### 17 **have a problem here if that's the case.** 

### 18 **MR. WESTPHALEN: We'll look into** 

### 19 **that.** 

### 20 **MR. AMRANE: I'm sure you will.** 

### 21 **(Laughter.)** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Did we queue**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 up 5-10 and 5-11?**  

### 2 **MR. SVENSON: DOE requests** 

### 3 **feedback on the method of selecting EER** 

### 4 **levels for analysis for PTACs and PTHPs.** 

### 5 **Specifically, DOE requests feedback on the** 

### 6 **use of the AHRI database, rating information** 

### 7 **and manufacturers' websites as the source for** 

### 8 **this analysis. If this is not an appropriate** 

### 9 **source or any of these are not an appropriate** 

### 10 **source, DOE requests suggestions of** 

### 11 **alternative sources of efficiency** 

### 12 **information. Also, DOE requests comments on** 

### 13 **the use of the same efficiency levels for** 

### 14 **PTACs and PTHPs.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Yolanda.** 

### 16 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, Yolanda** 

### 17 **Williams with G.E. Just a point of** 

### 18 **clarification. What was the timing on when** 

### 19 **you pulled the data from manufacturers'** 

### 20 **websites, etcetera, to construct the plots?** 

### 21 **MR. SVENSON: It would have** 

### 22 **probably been at least more than like three**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 months ago, three or four months ago.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Karim.** 

### 3 **MR. AMRANE: Yes, we should keep** 

### 4 **in mind the standard became effective October** 

### 5 **of last year?** 

### 6 **MR. SVENSON: Yes, I think it was** 

### 7 **right around that time that I pulled this** 

### 8 **data.** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: So that's probably** 

### 10 **why you have those dots below the --** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: So you presume that** 

### 12 **some of those dots --** 

### 13 **MR. SVENSON: They may have fallen** 

### 14 **off. So I'll need to update the database** 

### 15 **which is something I regularly do.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That's a** 

### 17 **good clarification. Additional comments on** 

### 18 **5-10 and 5-11, particularly about the** 

### 19 **database AHRI database and other potential** 

### 20 **sources?** 

### 21 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim, again,** 

### 22 **from AHRI. You can use AHRI database. I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 think it's data certified by AHRI. It has**  

### 2 **not everybody, but it has most everybody on** 

### 3 **it. So it's a good sourse of information.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 5 **MR. SVENSON: More specifically,** 

### 6 **for the manufacturers who aren't members of** 

### 7 **AHRI, we're using data from their websites.** 

### 8 **Is that generally a good source?** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: I think so, too. And** 

### 10 **again, those listed in the AHRI directory are** 

### 11 **not necessarily members of AHRI either. The** 

### 12 **certification program is open to members of** 

### 13 **AHRI and non-members as well.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 15 **Joanna.** 

### 16 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Maurer. I just** 

### 17 **note that on the graph that shows the** 

### 18 **potential efficiency levels, the levels seem** 

### 19 **to capture the range of efficiency levels** 

### 20 **that are currently available on the market,** 

### 21 **but I would imagine that for this equipment,** 

### 22 **the units with the maximum efficiency levels**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 don't represent a true max tech level. So we**  

### 2 **would expect that DOE would also evaluate at** 

### 3 **least one level of efficiency beyond the** 

### 4 **efficiency levels of products currently** 

### 5 **available on the market.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage.** 

### 7 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Just a quick** 

### 8 **question for Karim. On your database, if a** 

### 9 **piece of equipment is discontinued, are there** 

### 10 **procedures to remove that from the database** 

### 11 **promptly or could that be part of the problem** 

### 12 **here, that it's old stuff that would not** 

### 13 **actually be ordered?** 

### 14 **MR. AMRANE: Typically, I think we** 

### 15 **have six months, so we keep those six months** 

### 16 **in the directory from the time they are** 

### 17 **discontinued by the manufacturers and then** 

### 18 **they are removed.** 

### 19 **MR. SVENSON: Then lastly, we will** 

### 20 **get into determining the cost efficiency** 

### 21 **curve which is a result of the engineering** 

### 22 **analysis. So equipment at each efficiency**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 level for analysis will be either physically**  

### 2 **or virtually torn down to derive the** 

### 3 **manufacturing costs or MPC for each equipment** 

### 4 **class. Using these MPCs, DOE will calculate** 

### 5 **the manufacturer selling price, MSP, by** 

### 6 **multiplying the MPC by a manufacturing markup** 

### 7 **and adding a shipping cost. The result of** 

### 8 **the engineering analysis will be a set of** 

### 9 **price-efficiency curves, MSP versus EER, for** 

### 10 **each of the representative equipment classes** 

### 11 **that will be analyzed.** 

### 12 **So lastly, we have the comments** 

### 13 **from the framework for discussion. DOE seeks** 

### 14 **comment on the best ways to collect** 

### 15 **information for the engineering analysis such** 

### 16 **as costs to achieve energy use reductions,** 

### 17 **shipments disaggregated by equipment class** 

### 18 **and efficiency level, etcetera.** 

### 19 **Any comments on that?** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Karim?** 

### 21 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.** 

### 22 **To the extent that we can provide you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 aggregated information we will, so we are**  

### 2 **talking to the manufacturers to try to get** 

### 3 **that to you. So we will give you something.** 

### 4 **MR. SVENSON: Okay.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 6 **MR. SVENSON: The second, DOE** 

### 7 **requests input on appropriate categories and** 

### 8 **questions to be included on such requests for** 

### 9 **information.** 

### 10 **Third bullet, DOE seeks** 

### 11 **recommendations regarding the potential data** 

### 12 **collection efforts made by industry** 

### 13 **participants in support of this rulemaking.** 

### 14 **Something Karim -** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. SVENSON: Last, DOE is also** 

### 17 **interested in receiving equipment test data,** 

### 18 **test procedure used, rating conditions,** 

### 19 **voltage, etcetera. Test data representative** 

### 20 **of the baseline model in each equipment class** 

### 21 **is particularly important. So any test data** 

### 22 **you have from currently tested PTACs.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim.**  

### 2 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.** 

### 3 **We have test data to the extent the** 

### 4 **manufacturers are willing to share the** 

### 5 **information we will share it with you. So we** 

### 6 **will ask manufacturers if they are willing to** 

### 7 **allow AHRI to provide you that information.** 

### 8 **MR. SVENSON: DOE seeks comment on** 

### 9 **which information sources may be the best for** 

### 10 **developing estimates of manufacturing selling** 

### 11 **prices.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here?** 

### 13 **MR. SVENSON: Next, are there any** 

### 14 **proprietary designs that DOE should consider** 

### 15 **in its analysis for any of the equipment** 

### 16 **under consideration? If so, how should DOE** 

### 17 **acquire the cost data necessary for** 

### 18 **evaluating these designs? Conversely, are** 

### 19 **there proprietary designs that should not be** 

### 20 **considered and which equipment uses these** 

### 21 **designs?** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Karim?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.**  

### 2 **Again, I'm not comfortable with the term of** 

### 3 **proprietary designs because if they are** 

### 4 **proprietary it means that they cannot be used** 

### 5 **by others. So if we establish a minimum** 

### 6 **efficiency standard based on those designs to** 

### 7 **only -- the proprietary of one manufacturer,** 

### 8 **I don't think it will be helpful. So I'm not** 

### 9 **sure if we need to use proprietary design to** 

### 10 **establish the efficiency standard. That's my** 

### 11 **personal opinion.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking at the** 

### 13 **question again to see if it's -- if that** 

### 14 **answers it. Despite the fact that you've** 

### 15 **answered it in your own way.** 

### 16 **Don Brundage.** 

### 17 **MR. BRUNDAGE: I think it might be** 

### 18 **legitimate if you're looking for some sort of** 

### 19 **max tech design, but we've gone through this** 

### 20 **and many other standards rulemakings, that if** 

### 21 **it's proprietary or patented, it really can't** 

### 22 **be considered for an actual efficiency level.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional**  

### 2 **comments here? Of course, the Department, as** 

### 3 **you all know, welcomes your lengthy and** 

### 4 **detailed written comments on issues such as** 

### 5 **these and others.** 

### 6 **MR. SVENSON: The last bullet is** 

### 7 **are there any outside regulatory issues that** 

### 8 **DOE should consider in its engineering** 

### 9 **analysis for this equipment class?** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Regulatory issues?** 

### 11 **Okay. Karim.** 

### 12 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.** 

### 13 **Industry continues to be faced with** 

### 14 **refrigerant issues, okay. We just phased out** 

### 15 **ozone-depleting refrigerants, HCFCs in 2010.** 

### 16 **And industry moved away from using HCFCs** 

### 17 **today which is fine, but again, there is** 

### 18 **discussion today on climate change,** 

### 19 **discussion that are indicating that maybe** 

### 20 **those refrigerants will be phased down in the** 

### 21 **future.** 

### 22 **So again, I know there is no**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 regulation in place today. There is nothing**  

### 2 **in place, but this is something we believe** 

### 3 **the Department should study as well. Because** 

### 4 **the refrigerants that we're looking at, the** 

### 5 **new refrigerants with low global warming** 

### 6 **potential, are not as efficient as the old** 

### 7 **ones. So we need to keep that in mind.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 9 **MR. SVENSON: So I'll pass it over** 

### 10 **to Bingyi for energy use analysis and mark-up** 

### 11 **analysis.** 

### 12 **MR. YU: Good morning. My name is** 

### 13 **Bingyi Yu from Lawrence Berkeley National** 

### 14 **Lab. I'll be discussing some of the** 

### 15 **downstream analyses starting off with the** 

### 16 **energy use analysis.** 

### 17 **The purpose here in this analysis** 

### 18 **is to understand the energy use** 

### 19 **characteristics of PTACs and PTHPs. And some** 

### 20 **of the issues that are involved with this** 

### 21 **analysis is from the 2008 rulemakings, whole** 

### 22 **building PTAC and PTHP energy use**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 simulations. It utilizes an old version of**  

### 2 **CBECS and we'll use that as an launching** 

### 3 **point for the analysis for this current** 

### 4 **rulemaking.** 

### 5 **So some of the issues involve --** 

### 6 **it's the second bullet, cannot update the** 

### 7 **simulations because CBECS 2008 was not** 

### 8 **released and that there are characteristics** 

### 9 **of a building that we cannot implement into** 

### 10 **the simulations. So as well as there are** 

### 11 **some adjustments for whether equivalent** 

### 12 **efficiency in population from data sources** 

### 13 **that were released recently versus what was** 

### 14 **previously available.** 

### 15 **So in that sense, we'll use the** 

### 16 **outputs of the 2008 rulemakings, the whole** 

### 17 **building energy simulations, and adjust those** 

### 18 **outputs with the sub-bullet, Typical** 

### 19 **Meteorological Year 3, TMY3 data versus TMY2** 

### 20 **data. We'll consider the efficiency levels** 

### 21 **for this rulemaking versus the prior ones, as** 

### 22 **well as 2010 Census population data versus**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 the 2000 Census population data for this**  

### 2 **analysis.** 

### 3 **Now we'll go into more detail on** 

### 4 **these three points. First one is for the** 

### 5 **unit average energy use. I want to** 

### 6 **investigate the existence and extent of the** 

### 7 **change in monthly maximum temperatures, T_max** 

### 8 **and/or monthly cooling degree days, CDD. And** 

### 9 **we'll do this by comparing the weather data** 

### 10 **from the TMY3 as well as the TMY2 weather** 

### 11 **databases. Do that comparison, see if there** 

### 12 **are any trends, any correlations between** 

### 13 **T_max and CDD, to energy use.** 

### 14 **And utilize those correlations to adjust** 

### 15 **energy use based on the new weather data set.** 

### 16 **And lastly, we'll calculate the** 

### 17 **unit average energy use over the 239 U.S.** 

### 18 **weather stations and we'll again weight by** 

### 19 **the 2010 Census population data.** 

### 20 **The second issue is to determine** 

### 21 **the energy use for the current rulemaking's** 

### 22 **efficiency levels. And technique here is to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 utilize extrapolation or interpolation**  

### 2 **actually of how efficiency or how capacity** 

### 3 **changes with efficiency. This is from a** 

### 4 **graph from the previous rulemaking. As you** 

### 5 **can see, the trend is relatively linear. So** 

### 6 **we extrapolate that to higher efficiencies** 

### 7 **that might give a good indication of the** 

### 8 **capacity for high-efficiency levels that** 

### 9 **could be considered in this rulemaking.** 

### 10 **Now the final issue in the energy** 

### 11 **use analysis is to determine the national** 

### 12 **energy use. And we do that by multiplying** 

### 13 **the unit average energy use which we just** 

### 14 **determined. For the baseline, the higher** 

### 15 **efficiency levels, and again we scale that** 

### 16 **with the 2010 Census population data to** 

### 17 **obtain a national energy use.** 

### 18 **We have one issue for discussion** 

### 19 **here. DOE seeks comment on whether the** 

### 20 **existing inputs, software, methodology and** 

### 21 **outputs to estimate unit average and national** 

### 22 **energy for PTACs and PTHPs are adequate and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 appropriate for the current rulemaking.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.** 

### 3 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Sorry,** 

### 4 **could you just explain again what you were** 

### 5 **showing on the graph on the previous slide?** 

### 6 **MR. YU: Yes. So here we have the** 

### 7 **capacity versus the different efficiency** 

### 8 **levels. And the thought here is if you are** 

### 9 **able to extrapolate the capacity, because** 

### 10 **it's currently a linear trend, if you're able** 

### 11 **to extrapolate that past the efficiency** 

### 12 **levels used in the previous analysis, in the** 

### 13 **previous rulemaking, you can see how -- what** 

### 14 **the numbers would be for the efficiency** 

### 15 **levels in this analysis, for this rulemaking.** 

### 16 **MS. MAUER: The capacity of the** 

### 17 **unit?** 

### 18 **MR. YU: Right, so the capacity** 

### 19 **will be related to the energy consumption and** 

### 20 **then that would be used for the energy use** 

### 21 **analysis.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: What is the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 assumption you're making?**  

### 2 **MR. BRUNDAGE: I think you've got** 

### 3 **a graph mislabeled. I think it's COP on the** 

### 4 **Y axis and you've got BTU/H.** 

### 5 **MR. YU: Right, BTUs per hour.** 

### 6 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Is that supposed to** 

### 7 **be COP on that axis?** 

### 8 **MR. YU: I don't believe it's** 

### 9 **supposed to be COP, but we have to go back** 

### 10 **and double check some of the numbers in this** 

### 11 **chart.** 

### 12 **MR. ROSENQUIST: I think that's** 

### 13 **supposed to be kWH. So it was just a** 

### 14 **mislabeled axis. It's showing the energy use** 

### 15 **going down with the efficiency level.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Greg** 

### 17 **Rosenquist. Thank you.** 

### 18 **MR. YU: Yes.** 

### 19 **MR. AMRANE: Just a question here.** 

### 20 **How is your methodology compared to what** 

### 21 **ASHRAE 90.1 does when it estimates the energy** 

### 22 **savings of equipment efficiency? Are you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 talking to PNL? Are you --**  

### 2 **MR. YU: We have -- there are many** 

### 3 **people available in the public that we will** 

### 4 **definitely network with and also try to** 

### 5 **understand their techniques to calculate the** 

### 6 **energy use for this equipment. But the** 

### 7 **technique here is to understand how it was** 

### 8 **previously done and see if there's any trends** 

### 9 **that are available that can be extrapolated.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Karim?** 

### 11 **MR. AMRANE: I guess I understand** 

### 12 **it was previously done, but at the same time** 

### 13 **I think there is a methodology used by the** 

### 14 **ASHRAE 90.1 Committee to estimate energy** 

### 15 **savings. There are modeling tools. And I** 

### 16 **urge you to consult with the folks -- I** 

### 17 **assume they work for PNNL. It's just the** 

### 18 **standard way of doing it. We don't want -- I** 

### 19 **think we're satisfied with that, so I think** 

### 20 **you should look at this, too.** 

### 21 **MR. YU: Understood, thank you.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: So you already**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 queued up this comment box. Additional**  

### 2 **comments on item 6.1? Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. YU: Next, we'll jump into the** 

### 4 **markups analysis. The purpose of the markups** 

### 5 **analysis is to understand the distribution** 

### 6 **channels for PTACs and PTHPs as well as** 

### 7 **understand the markups for each of those** 

### 8 **distribution channels.** 

### 9 **The method here is to utilize the** 

### 10 **distribution channels from the previous** 

### 11 **rulemaking, estimate the markups for each** 

### 12 **step from the manufacturer to each of the** 

### 13 **purchasers. And estimate markups for the** 

### 14 **baseline and higher-efficiency equipment** 

### 15 **based on some of the fixed and variable costs** 

### 16 **associated with the equipment.** 

### 17 **In this case, there are four** 

### 18 **distribution channels to be analyzed. One is** 

### 19 **a national account where equipment is** 

### 20 **delivered from the manufacturer directly to** 

### 21 **the purchaser. Equipment is also delivered** 

### 22 **from the manufacturer to the wholesaler,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 which is delivered to the purchaser.**  

### 2 **Wholesaler can deliver it to the mechanical** 

### 3 **contractor, which has been sold, or deliver** 

### 4 **it to a general contractor and sold. Now** 

### 5 **with these four distribution channels there** 

### 6 **are two types of markups associated. One is** 

### 7 **the baseline markup and one is the** 

### 8 **incremental markup. The baseline markups are** 

### 9 **multipliers that directly convert** 

### 10 **manufacturer and selling price to a purchaser** 

### 11 **price. And data for these markups can be** 

### 12 **obtained from intermediary distributors and** 

### 13 **contractors from industry as well as trade** 

### 14 **association literature and data.** 

### 15 **Some of the examples here are the** 

### 16 **HARDI Profit Planning Report for wholesalers;** 

### 17 **the ACCA literature, as well as U.S. Census** 

### 18 **Bureau data that can be used for the baseline** 

### 19 **markups.** 

### 20 **Also, for the incremental markups,** 

### 21 **these are the multipliers for the incremental** 

### 22 **cost change of the manufacturer's selling**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 price for higher-efficiency equipment. And**  

### 2 **the data for these incremental markups are** 

### 3 **obtained from similar sources.** 

### 4 **The one issue for discussion here** 

### 5 **- DOE seeks input on whether the methodology** 

### 6 **to calculate markups for PTAC and PTHP** 

### 7 **equipment is adequate and appropriate for the** 

### 8 **current rulemaking.** 

### 9 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I have a question** 

### 10 **for the manufacturers. Do you at all sell** 

### 11 **directly to the large hotel chains or do you** 

### 12 **mostly go through a distributor?** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty?** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 15 **Goodman. At this point I honestly don't know** 

### 16 **the sell side.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yolanda, do you** 

### 18 **know?** 

### 19 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yolanda with G.E.** 

### 20 **That's something I can review with our sales** 

### 21 **team and then we can provide some specific** 

### 22 **information on all distribution channels.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank**  

### 2 **you, Rusty.** 

### 3 **MR. YU: Thank you. Next we'll** 

### 4 **jump into the life-cycle costs and payback** 

### 5 **period analysis. The purpose here for these** 

### 6 **two analyses is to understand the net** 

### 7 **economic impact on purchasers. And the** 

### 8 **impact would be based on the PTACs, PTHPs at** 

### 9 **the considered efficiency levels.** 

### 10 **The method here, so we have two** 

### 11 **analyses. We have the life-cycle cost and** 

### 12 **the payback period analysis. The life-cycle** 

### 13 **cost is based on installed cost, operating** 

### 14 **cost, the discounting of the operating cost** 

### 15 **over the equipment lifetime. And the payback** 

### 16 **period is just based on the first year's** 

### 17 **operating cost savings.** 

### 18 **Now because we have in this** 

### 19 **analysis point values, as well as probability** 

### 20 **distribution of some of the inputs, we take** 

### 21 **both of those into account in a Monte Carlo** 

### 22 **analysis. And that's implemented in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 Microsoft Excel with Crystal Ball.**  

### 2 **So for these two analyses, there** 

### 3 **are four inputs as we mentioned. For each** 

### 4 **input, there are two considerations. In the** 

### 5 **installed cost which is the first one,** 

### 6 **there's purchase price and installation** 

### 7 **costs. Purchase price is derived from the** 

### 8 **baseline and higher efficiency equipment and** 

### 9 **some of that -- the outputs from the market** 

### 10 **analysis is used here, so we consider the** 

### 11 **manufacturer's selling price, the markups, as** 

### 12 **well as the sales tax.** 

### 13 **The installation costs we gather** 

### 14 **from RS Means Cost Works and those costs are** 

### 15 **related to nonmaterial costs as well as** 

### 16 **labor.** 

### 17 **For operating costs, we consider** 

### 18 **energy costs as well as repair and** 

### 19 **maintenance. Energy costs are developed off** 

### 20 **marginal energy prices based on utility** 

### 21 **tariffs and the prices that are projected** 

### 22 **into the future are based from sources such**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 as the Annual Energy Outlook.**  

### 2 **Repair and maintenance. DOE plans** 

### 3 **to use the same costs for all considered** 

### 4 **efficiency levels.** 

### 5 **Equipment lifetime is the third** 

### 6 **input. DOE will use information from various** 

### 7 **sources such as manufacturer literature,** 

### 8 **other literature sources, as well as input** 

### 9 **from manufacturers and interested parties.** 

### 10 **Based on the prior rulemaking, DOE** 

### 11 **expects lifetime to be represented by Weibull** 

### 12 **distribution with an average of 10 years and** 

### 13 **a maximum of 20 years.** 

### 14 **Lastly, for the discount rates,** 

### 15 **these discount rates, DOE derived a** 

### 16 **distribution of those rates for businesses** 

### 17 **that frequently employ PTACs PTHPs such as** 

### 18 **lodging, lodging end uses. These rates are** 

### 19 **based on two primary rates. One is equity** 

### 20 **financing rate and one is a debt financing** 

### 21 **rate. These two sources of data for the** 

### 22 **equity and debt financing are based on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 Damodaron Online database as well as**  

### 2 **information from the yield on long term** 

### 3 **corporate bonds. Lastly again, these are** 

### 4 **weighted based on the -- each company's value** 

### 5 **and its share of equity and debt financing.** 

### 6 **We have one issue for discussion** 

### 7 **here. DOE seeks comment on whether the** 

### 8 **methodology to calculate life-cycle costs and** 

### 9 **payback periods for PTAC and PTHP equipment** 

### 10 **is adequate and appropriate for the current** 

### 11 **rulemaking.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here?** 

### 13 **Karim? Rusty, first.** 

### 14 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 15 **Goodman. Just a general comment. I think it** 

### 16 **would generally apply to not only this** 

### 17 **rulemaking, but several others that quite** 

### 18 **often the repair and maintenance costs as was** 

### 19 **commented are kept the same regardless of the** 

### 20 **efficiency level and we would comment that** 

### 21 **typically with the higher efficiency product** 

### 22 **that the repair costs and maintenance costs**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 are higher with the more efficient products.**  

### 2 **So that's something -- we think that should** 

### 3 **be used, reconsider that decision.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Can you quantify** 

### 5 **that?** 

### 6 **MR. THARP: It depends on the** 

### 7 **specific type of technology that would be** 

### 8 **used. I guess the one that stands out to me** 

### 9 **more recently is the furnace fan rulemaking** 

### 10 **is that the fan motors, the BPM type fan** 

### 11 **motors typically have a significantly higher** 

### 12 **warranty rate, two to three times as much.** 

### 13 **So that would be a typical value to use for** 

### 14 **those.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Karim?** 

### 16 **MR. YU: Sorry, I just have a** 

### 17 **quick followup. Do you know if some of that** 

### 18 **data is publicly available or can you provide** 

### 19 **it?** 

### 20 **MR. THARP: It's probably not** 

### 21 **publicly available. We can provide some** 

### 22 **information from what we have as we have with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 the furnace fan rulemaking.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. YU: Thank you.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. Karim.** 

### 5 **MR. AMRANE: Yes, I guess I would** 

### 6 **like to have some more information about the** 

### 7 **average lifetime, the ten years. What basis** 

### 8 **was this selected? I mean is it based on** 

### 9 **information from manufacturers, from --** 

### 10 **MR. YU: Right, we have to go back** 

### 11 **and look at the previous rulemaking's** 

### 12 **assumptions that was made in that rulemaking.** 

### 13 **It was acceptable in the previous rulemaking** 

### 14 **and I believe that it's still usable in this** 

### 15 **rulemaking.** 

### 16 **MR. AMRANE: We can provide you** 

### 17 **probably more information, but we need to** 

### 18 **look as well what ASHRAE uses for equipment** 

### 19 **lifetime for this type of product. I think** 

### 20 **ASHRAE has some information on this. So I** 

### 21 **think you need to look at that and we'll get** 

### 22 **you some more information.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 I have a general question about**  

### 2 **payback, in general. I mean we are doing** 

### 3 **this analysis. I have no issue with the** 

### 4 **analysis. So I guess I would like to have** 

### 5 **some discussion about the usefulness of the** 

### 6 **analysis itself. If I recall, because I've** 

### 7 **been around for a long time, if I recall the** 

### 8 **last rulemaking, the payback period for PTAC,** 

### 9 **the efficiency standard by DOE was over ten** 

### 10 **years, so it was over the average lifetime of** 

### 11 **the product.** 

### 12 **MR. YU: It was 11.** 

### 13 **MR. AMRANE: It was 11 years. So** 

### 14 **and then yet DOE went ahead and adopted those** 

### 15 **efficiency standards. I guess for me the** 

### 16 **question is how can we go ahead with an** 

### 17 **efficiency standard which has a payback** 

### 18 **longer than the life of the product itself?** 

### 19 **And that's why I'm asking the question.** 

### 20 **Yes, we are doing this, but at the** 

### 21 **end of the day again it's one of the factors** 

### 22 **that DOE, I guess, uses to justify the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 standard. And at least last time it was**  

### 2 **completely disregarded. So I guess I would** 

### 3 **like to have some discussion about why are we** 

### 4 **doing all this? If we find a payback of 15** 

### 5 **years, is DOE going to -- what's the** 

### 6 **usefulness of the analysis itself?** 

### 7 **MR. YU: As you mentioned, one** 

### 8 **thing that I did want to point out is** 

### 9 **understood that the payback analysis in this** 

### 10 **case could be 10 or 11 years. But in this** 

### 11 **case, we don't expect -- we expect an average** 

### 12 **-- the average lifetime to be 10 years, but** 

### 13 **there could be maximum lifetime of 20 years.** 

### 14 **So in that case, it could be -- certain** 

### 15 **units could be still functioning, still have** 

### 16 **a lifetime that's still operating and be** 

### 17 **within its payback period.** 

### 18 **I'd like to open this up for any** 

### 19 **other thoughts.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage.** 

### 21 **MR. BRUNDAGE: I've got a couple** 

### 22 **of comments on this. One is this is not --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 to have a PTAC out there and the tail end of**  

### 2 **the distribution may last 20 years, you need** 

### 3 **to think about where these are actually being** 

### 4 **used. Mass installations in places like** 

### 5 **hotels, they're not going to ring the last** 

### 6 **bit of life out of the tail end of that** 

### 7 **distribution. If they start hitting the** 

### 8 **point where they're going to have a lot of** 

### 9 **failures, they're going to replace the whole** 

### 10 **lot and the whole wing of the hotel gets new** 

### 11 **equipment.** 

### 12 **So you really can't go very far** 

### 13 **out that distribution, I don't think, before** 

### 14 **you start having mass replacements because** 

### 15 **it's not an individual investment decision** 

### 16 **for each PTAC. If it gets to the point that** 

### 17 **it's not going to be as reliable, the whole** 

### 18 **bunch is going to get replaced.** 

### 19 **I had another more minor comment,** 

### 20 **just back on your discount rates for** 

### 21 **businesses, is to remember that these** 

### 22 **businesses -- you don't just go to the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 Marriotts and the Hiltons, the actual hotels**  

### 2 **a lot of times are owned by franchises who** 

### 3 **are less well capitalized. So make sure** 

### 4 **you're covering who actually is purchasing** 

### 5 **the equipment and not just the name on the** 

### 6 **marquee.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky.** 

### 8 **MR. CYMBALSKY: I actually have** 

### 9 **some first-hand knowledge with this because** 

### 10 **my wife works for Marriott and does this for** 

### 11 **a living. So when they do these rehabs, they** 

### 12 **actually have like the packages actually** 

### 13 **thrust upon the franchisees. They're putting** 

### 14 **up the money, but Marriott actually designs** 

### 15 **what goes in there.** 

### 16 **So that led me to another question** 

### 17 **for the manufacturers. I know at least a** 

### 18 **couple of these big hotel firms have been** 

### 19 **pushing LEED certified in their rehabs and** 

### 20 **their new construction. Have you seen an** 

### 21 **uptick in higher efficiency PTACs because of** 

### 22 **this or has it just been efficiency wise**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 pretty flat in the last -- particularly the**  

### 2 **last five years?** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty?** 

### 4 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 5 **Goodman. I'm not close enough to really give** 

### 6 **you a good accurate answer, but just from** 

### 7 **where I sit I think it's fairly flat.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments** 

### 9 **here?** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: An additional** 

### 11 **comment I'll throw in, as Don says, this** 

### 12 **would be a good point to get input from the** 

### 13 **users besides just this one company as far as** 

### 14 **what they're actually doing.** 

### 15 **And my second question is when** 

### 16 **they spec these out, does the noise of these** 

### 17 **units come into play with what the end user** 

### 18 **is actually demanding? It seems to me that** 

### 19 **for these hotel chains that the sound is** 

### 20 **probably of more concern to them than the** 

### 21 **efficiency.** 

### 22 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 Goodman. We would confirm that the sound is**  

### 2 **probably a bigger issue than efficiency for** 

### 3 **the end users from my perspective.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 5 **MR. YU: Next, we come to the** 

### 6 **shipments analysis and the national impact** 

### 7 **analysis. The shipments analysis, the** 

### 8 **purpose is to understand shipments of new and** 

### 9 **replacement PTACs and PTHPs. We've got them** 

### 10 **broken down into segments. One is the new** 

### 11 **equipment, the ones --replacement equipment.** 

### 12 **New equipment, we'll try to** 

### 13 **characterize the shipments based on the** 

### 14 **multiplication of two variables. One is the** 

### 15 **saturation, which is the equipment per square** 

### 16 **foot of floor space, as well as your** 

### 17 **projected increases in that floor space. It** 

### 18 **could be hotel/motel, healthcare and other** 

### 19 **small office floor space that frequently** 

### 20 **PTACs and PTHPs.** 

### 21 **For replacement equipment, we** 

### 22 **project the annual shipments of replacement**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 equipment based on a rate of failure for the**  

### 2 **existing stock.** 

### 3 **Lastly, DOE is not aware of any** 

### 4 **evidence that shipments would be affected by** 

### 5 **increased price of higher efficiency** 

### 6 **equipment.** 

### 7 **We have a few issues for** 

### 8 **discussion here. DOE requests historical** 

### 9 **shipments data for each of the considered** 

### 10 **equipment classes. And I guess we can hit** 

### 11 **each of these points one at a time.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Karim.** 

### 13 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.** 

### 14 **As I said, I think we'll give you some** 

### 15 **historical shipment data.** 

### 16 **MR. YU: Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. AMRANE: On the product class.** 

### 18 **But to your statement, that shipment did not** 

### 19 **increase with equipment efficiency. I think** 

### 20 **probably you will see that there probably** 

### 21 **will be a decrease in shipment of the PTACs.** 

### 22 **MR. YU: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 MR. AMRANE: And also the fact**  

### 2 **that many manufacturers who used to be making** 

### 3 **the product in the U.S. are not making the** 

### 4 **product any more in the U.S. because of those** 

### 5 **high efficiency standards, too.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Karim, do you know** 

### 7 **if there's a big export market for these or** 

### 8 **is this mostly U.S.?** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: I don't know. I** 

### 10 **think it's mostly U.S. but you'll have to ask** 

### 11 **the manufacturers.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty.** 

### 13 **MR. THARP: Yolanda's here, too,** 

### 14 **you know. I'm on the sales side, I can't** 

### 15 **give you much detail, but I do think that** 

### 16 **most of our product is shipped domestically.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yolanda.** 

### 18 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yolanda Williams.** 

### 19 **Again, I think as a followup we can kind of** 

### 20 **summarize what that shipment information is** 

### 21 **and give you feedback.** 

### 22 **MR. YU: Second item, DOE seeks**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 information on the proportions of PTAC and**  

### 2 **PTHP equipment that is shipped annually that** 

### 3 **replaces the existing equipment** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is that really** 

### 5 **available, Karim?** 

### 6 **MR. AMRANE: From AHRI, no. It's** 

### 7 **not. We'll get you shipments when it is** 

### 8 **shipped. It's going to be new construction** 

### 9 **as well as replacement.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 11 **MR. YU: Any data is good data.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty.** 

### 13 **MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with** 

### 14 **Goodman. I don't know that we as a** 

### 15 **manufacturer would be able to tell. We could** 

### 16 **give you our guesstimate in which we'll** 

### 17 **provide you with the written comments. But I** 

### 18 **don't think there's really good, hard data** 

### 19 **that we can provide.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. AMRANE: However, this is** 

### 22 **Karim again, however, I mean you can have a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 pretty good idea of the construction of new**  

### 2 **hotels and motels in the U.S. So that would** 

### 3 **be basically new construction, so you would** 

### 4 **be able to deduct the replacements. So I** 

### 5 **don't think it's going to be difficult for** 

### 6 **you to estimate that.** 

### 7 **MR. YU: Okay, third item is DOE** 

### 8 **welcomes comment on the proposed shipments** 

### 9 **forecast methodology and input regarding** 

### 10 **market forces that might impact shipments.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Market forces you** 

### 12 **anticipate, should you be so bold. Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. YU: DOE welcomes comment on** 

### 14 **how amended standards for PTAC and PTHP** 

### 15 **equipment might impact shipments of the** 

### 16 **equipment. And I believe Karim addressed** 

### 17 **that with the sending of the data.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. YU: Lastly is the -- not** 

### 20 **lastly, lastly in this preliminary analysis** 

### 21 **is the national impact analysis. There's two** 

### 22 **sub-analyses here. One is the national**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 energy savings and one is to determine the**  

### 2 **net present value of total purchaser benefits** 

### 3 **for each considered efficiency level.** 

### 4 **For NES, national energy savings** 

### 5 **analysis, the method here is to develop** 

### 6 **annual series of national energy and economic** 

### 7 **impacts over the lifetime of products shipped** 

### 8 **in the forecast period. And this utilizes** 

### 9 **the outputs from many of the priorly** 

### 10 **discussed analyses. One is the shipments** 

### 11 **model to estimate equipment stock. The LCC** 

### 12 **analysis for energy savings and incremental** 

### 13 **costs, and also DOE plans to project a trend** 

### 14 **in average efficiency in the base case and** 

### 15 **standards case and report the final energy** 

### 16 **savings in primary, as well as full-fuel** 

### 17 **cycle energy savings.** 

### 18 **For the net present value,** 

### 19 **estimate the present value of those costs and** 

### 20 **savings using OMB 3 percent and 7 percent** 

### 21 **discount rates.** 

### 22 **Two issues for discussion here.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 DOE seeks comment -- and we can discuss the**  

### 2 **first one. DOE seeks comment on whether the** 

### 3 **existing methodology to estimate national** 

### 4 **impact of amended energy efficiency standards** 

### 5 **is adequate and appropriate to evaluate for** 

### 6 **the current analysis.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here.** 

### 8 **MR. YU: DOE seeks comment on the** 

### 9 **likely long-term trend in average efficiency** 

### 10 **of PTAC and PTHP equipment in the absence of** 

### 11 **amended standards.** 

### 12 **For the NOPR analysis, I'll** 

### 13 **quickly go over the purchaser subgroup** 

### 14 **analysis and have Knute come up and talk** 

### 15 **about the manufacturer impact analysis. And** 

### 16 **we'll tag team again.** 

### 17 **The purchaser subgroup analysis,** 

### 18 **the purpose here is to understand the** 

### 19 **economic impacts of amended standards on** 

### 20 **subgroups who may be disproportionately** 

### 21 **impacted. And the method here is simply just** 

### 22 **extend the LCC analysis to certain subgroups**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 as determined that may be disproportionately**  

### 2 **impacted.** 

### 3 **One item for discussion, if** 

### 4 **there's any comments, DOE welcomes comment on** 

### 5 **what, if any, user subgroups are appropriate** 

### 6 **in considering amended standards for PTACs** 

### 7 **and PTHPs.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comments here?** 

### 9 **Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with** 

### 11 **AHRI. I guess it was mentioned before that** 

### 12 **maybe you should be talking to the hotels,** 

### 13 **motels, other users of those products. I** 

### 14 **think they have been missing in the** 

### 15 **discussion and in previous rulemaking as** 

### 16 **well. So I support that that group be** 

### 17 **consulted.** 

### 18 **MR. YU: Understood. Thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: And now we're going** 

### 20 **to hear from Knute.** 

### 21 **MR. SVENSON: I'm going to talk** 

### 22 **briefly about the manufacturing impact**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 analysis. The purpose of the manufacturing**  

### 2 **impact analysis is to assess the impacts of** 

### 3 **amended standards on manufacturers; to** 

### 4 **identify and estimate impacts on manufacturer** 

### 5 **subgroups that may be more severely impacted** 

### 6 **than the industry as a whole; and to examine** 

### 7 **the impact of cumulative regulatory burden on** 

### 8 **the industry.** 

### 9 **The method that we'll use is we'll** 

### 10 **analyze industry cash flow and net present** 

### 11 **value through the use of the Government** 

### 12 **Regulatory Impact Model or the GRIM. And** 

### 13 **we'll also interview manufacturers to refine** 

### 14 **inputs to the GRIM, develop subgroup** 

### 15 **analyses, and address qualitative issues.** 

### 16 **We have three comments. First** 

### 17 **one, DOE seeks comment on appropriate** 

### 18 **subgroups for PTACs and PTHPs, if any, that** 

### 19 **DOE should consider in a manufacturer** 

### 20 **subgroup analysis.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Subgroups? No.** 

### 22 **MR. SVENSON: Second one, DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 welcomes comment on regulations or pending**  

### 2 **regulations should DOE consider in its** 

### 3 **analysis of cumulative regulatory burden.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Karim.** 

### 5 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane. Well,** 

### 6 **there are certain manufacturers who are** 

### 7 **making other products than just PTACs and I** 

### 8 **think are impacted by other rulemakings,** 

### 9 **central A/C, room A/C, I mean you name it,** 

### 10 **household refrigerators, if you take the case** 

### 11 **of G.E. and others. So I think there are** 

### 12 **several rulemakings and at least those** 

### 13 **manufacturers, the impact of those** 

### 14 **rulemakings on these manufacturers should be** 

### 15 **looked at.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. SVENSON: Last comment. DOE** 

### 18 **welcomes industry feedback on the number and** 

### 19 **names of small businesses that manufacture** 

### 20 **PTACs and PTHPs. I think small business is** 

### 21 **defined as a company having 750 employees or** 

### 22 **fewer.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Karim.**  

### 2 **MR. AMRANE: Well, there are a few** 

### 3 **manufacturers who make nonstandard size PTACs** 

### 4 **and I think those are small manufacturers and** 

### 5 **I think you should be looking at them. And I** 

### 6 **think some of the names were listed in the** 

### 7 **previous slides.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rusty.** 

### 9 **MR. THARP: Actually, going back** 

### 10 **to item 12-2, just reiterating also the** 

### 11 **comments that Karim made earlier about** 

### 12 **refrigerants and the impact that that --** 

### 13 **potential impact that has on manufacturers as** 

### 14 **well as users in total energy consumption** 

### 15 **which may be mindful of what's come down the** 

### 16 **pike in terms of refrigerants.** 

### 17 **MR. SVENSON: I'll pass it over to** 

### 18 **Bingyi.** 

### 19 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Rusty, do you guys** 

### 20 **have test data that could be available using** 

### 21 **different refrigerants or is that something** 

### 22 **you don't want to --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 MR. THARP: We have very limited**  

### 2 **additional alternate refrigerants from what** 

### 3 **we've seen. Again, if you look at AHRI's** 

### 4 **AREP program, has some additional information** 

### 5 **that would be useful also in this area.** 

### 6 **MR. AMRANE: Yes, I would like to** 

### 7 **add that we do have a program. It's called** 

### 8 **the Low-GWP Alternative Refrigerants** 

### 9 **Evaluation Program that was started about a** 

### 10 **year and a half ago. And the data that's** 

### 11 **coming out of this program is publicly** 

### 12 **available. It's on our website and you're** 

### 13 **going to see more and more reports on our** 

### 14 **website. But yes, we do have data.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 16 **MR. YU: Here we'll come into the** 

### 17 **emissions analysis and monetization. The** 

### 18 **purpose here is to understand the impact of** 

### 19 **amended standards on emissions, FFC** 

### 20 **emissions. And there are six of them. I** 

### 21 **won't go into the detail. But DOE will use** 

### 22 **the marginal emission factors from the AEO as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 well as any other data sources that are**  

### 2 **available. And this analysis includes** 

### 3 **emissions from power plants and from some of** 

### 4 **the upstream processing of primary fuels.** 

### 5 **Now certain emissions can be** 

### 6 **monetized and DOE plans to use the most** 

### 7 **current social cost of carbon values** 

### 8 **developed by U.S. government interagency** 

### 9 **working groups for the monetization of GHG** 

### 10 **emissions and also to the second bullet, some** 

### 11 **CO2 emissions can be monetized in the range** 

### 12 **of values from $6.2 to $79.1 per metric ton** 

### 13 **removed. So there is data for that. And** 

### 14 **lastly, DOE also estimates the monetary** 

### 15 **benefit of NOX emissions.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage.** 

### 17 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Back on emissions** 

### 18 **analysis, the power plant emissions is an** 

### 19 **area that is changing very rapidly and I've** 

### 20 **had discussions before with you. And I think** 

### 21 **you're being diligent in trying to keep up** 

### 22 **with the latest information, but there have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 been major announcements by utilities, us and**  

### 2 **-- Southern Company and others of major** 

### 3 **changes in future generation and power plant** 

### 4 **emissions projects. So just be diligent to** 

### 5 **include all of that data that you can as up** 

### 6 **to date as possible, because this is an area** 

### 7 **that's changing very rapidly.** 

### 8 **MR. YU: Thank you. We'll keep** 

### 9 **that in mind.** 

### 10 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Don, do you report** 

### 11 **that to EIA as well in terms of what your** 

### 12 **plans are so that they can model it in the** 

### 13 **national energy modeling system, which would** 

### 14 **then get picked up in the AEO?** 

### 15 **MR. BRUNDAGE: No, but when I** 

### 16 **talked to your consultants about a year ago,** 

### 17 **they were looking at supplemental data and** 

### 18 **more recent utility announcements. And** 

### 19 **keeping up, making adjustments for those** 

### 20 **sorts of things. I was satisfied they were** 

### 21 **doing a good job on that, but just keep it up** 

### 22 **because it is changing very rapidly and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 what's being reported in the EIA model is**  

### 2 **probably a little out of date.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 4 **Additional thoughts on analysis and this** 

### 5 **monetization.** 

### 6 **MR. YU: So we have two items for** 

### 7 **discussion and DOE seeks input on its** 

### 8 **proposed approach to analyze emissions** 

### 9 **impacts of amended standards on PTACs and** 

### 10 **PTHPs. I think we covered a good amount of** 

### 11 **ground on both of these issues.** 

### 12 **Are there any other comments for** 

### 13 **these?** 

### 14 **Utility impact analysis. The** 

### 15 **purpose here is to understand how amended** 

### 16 **standards would have an impact on utility** 

### 17 **capacity as well as generation. And DOE** 

### 18 **plans to use factors derived from NEMS-BT to** 

### 19 **do that analysis and some of the data sources** 

### 20 **from AEO.** 

### 21 **One issue here, DOE welcomes any** 

### 22 **input from stakeholders on its proposed**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 approach to conducting the utility impact**  

### 2 **analysis.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage.** 

### 4 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage,** 

### 5 **Southern Company. It's not really any --** 

### 6 **there's nothing anything unique about this** 

### 7 **rulemaking compared to others as far as** 

### 8 **utility impacts.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. YU: We'll jump into the** 

### 11 **employment impact analysis. The purpose here** 

### 12 **is to understand how amended standards would** 

### 13 **have an impact on employment. And mostly for** 

### 14 **the indirect employment, both through** 

### 15 **substitution effect as well as the income** 

### 16 **effect. DOE intends to use the ImSET model** 

### 17 **to understand how the amended standards would** 

### 18 **impact employment.** 

### 19 **One comment, DOE welcomes any** 

### 20 **thoughts on its proposed approach to** 

### 21 **assessing national employment impacts.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comments.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 MR. YU: Lastly, the regulatory**  

### 2 **impact analysis. The purpose here is to** 

### 3 **understand how national effects of non** 

### 4 **regulatory alternatives compared with the** 

### 5 **mandatory energy conservation standards. Some** 

### 6 **non-regulatory alternatives may consist of** 

### 7 **early replacement, manufacturer tax credits,** 

### 8 **as you can see in the six points here.** 

### 9 **And the methodology used in this** 

### 10 **analysis is to modify the NES spreadsheet** 

### 11 **model to consider some of these non** 

### 12 **regulatory scenarios. And some of the** 

### 13 **analysis is done based on using the outputs** 

### 14 **from the NES as well as the NPV.** 

### 15 **One issue, any comment regarding** 

### 16 **programs, any alternative programs that** 

### 17 **should be examined as non-regulatory** 

### 18 **approaches.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, nothing here.** 

### 20 **MR. YU: This seems like we'll** 

### 21 **turn it back to Ron.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: This final slide --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 before I turn it back to Ron, as we had said**  

### 2 **at the outset, an opportunity now for final** 

### 3 **comments, any issues that haven't been** 

### 4 **covered sufficiently, and also I would remind** 

### 5 **you that there's an evaluation form attached** 

### 6 **at the back of your packet here, the final** 

### 7 **page.** 

### 8 **Karim?** 

### 9 **MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI.** 

### 10 **Just one comment and I should have made it** 

### 11 **when we were reviewing the engineering** 

### 12 **analysis. You should be aware that ASHRAE** 

### 13 **90.1 did demand the standard for PTAC as part** 

### 14 **of the 2013 version of 90.1. So there is an** 

### 15 **addendum. It was already approved for** 

### 16 **publication, public review. It was approved** 

### 17 **and it's going to be part of the 2013 version** 

### 18 **on 90.1. So that should be a level that you** 

### 19 **should be analyzing in your analysis. Thank** 

### 20 **you.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 22 **Yes, Joanna.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I just**  

### 2 **wanted to ask one question. I'm curious** 

### 3 **about whether DOE or manufacturers have** 

### 4 **information on the prevalence of new units** 

### 5 **with control interfaces such that they can be** 

### 6 **integrated into building energy management** 

### 7 **systems, be remotely controlled and also any** 

### 8 **information about kind of how those units** 

### 9 **with the capability are being utilized in the** 

### 10 **field.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have any** 

### 12 **thoughts on that? Karim.** 

### 13 **MR. AMRANE: I can't really** 

### 14 **directly answer this question. However,** 

### 15 **there is one thing that needs to be accounted** 

### 16 **for in this analysis. ASHRAE 90.1 now has** 

### 17 **required, for example, that those units be** 

### 18 **controlled by thermostat which they were not** 

### 19 **in the past. So I think that functionality** 

### 20 **should be accounted for in the analysis as** 

### 21 **well because the intent is to really turn off** 

### 22 **those units when there's nobody in the room,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 for example, so things like that.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional** 

### 3 **thoughts? Yes, Rusty.** 

### 4 **MR. THARP: To answer the** 

### 5 **question, we do offer controls that as Karim** 

### 6 **indicated when there's nobody in the room it** 

### 7 **turns it off and hotel operators can disable** 

### 8 **air conditioners for rooms that are not** 

### 9 **occupied, so those controls are available.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage.** 

### 11 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Just a general** 

### 12 **comment on controls and it goes across any of** 

### 13 **the commercial rulemakings. The big emphasis** 

### 14 **the last couple of years at ASHRAE has been** 

### 15 **towards controls, motion sensors, and office** 

### 16 **environments. They're even requiring them on** 

### 17 **escalators now that they cut off in the 2013** 

### 18 **standard if they haven't been used in a while** 

### 19 **and there's no one nearby. So across all the** 

### 20 **commercial rulemakings, I think you need to** 

### 21 **consider that the energy used in utilization** 

### 22 **may be dropping compared to what's in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 past with some of the controls that are**  

### 2 **included within the 90.1 standard.** 

### 3 **Other comment I have here is this** 

### 4 **is a comment -- and this is really something** 

### 5 **that probably Karim and the manufacturers --** 

### 6 **there's a lot of followup items here and this** 

### 7 **comment period closes in a week.** 

### 8 **MR. AMRANE: I do want to ask,** 

### 9 **again, I know the deadline is next week for** 

### 10 **comments. I think in my opinion we have** 

### 11 **plenty of time to complete this rulemaking,** 

### 12 **until 2014--the end of 2014 or so, so again,** 

### 13 **I mean we're going to try to get you the** 

### 14 **comments by next week, but I hope that DOE** 

### 15 **will be flexible enough to accept comments if** 

### 16 **they are a little bit -- if they come a** 

### 17 **little bit later than the 25th.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ron Majette.** 

### 19 **MR. MAJETTE: Only if they're from** 

### 20 **AHRI. Anybody else, no.** 

### 21 **(Laughter.)** 

### 22 **That's just a joke. We can be a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 little flexible. We understand there are**  

### 2 **some issues on the table here that we really** 

### 3 **need responses to, so try your best to meet** 

### 4 **the 25th. And if you find yourself running a** 

### 5 **little bit late, just keep in mind it's** 

### 6 **better for us to have the comments in our** 

### 7 **possession as opposed to shelving them, not** 

### 8 **knowing what you have in mind.** 

### 9 **MS. MAUER: This is Joanna Mauer.** 

### 10 **I would like to formally request an** 

### 11 **extension of the comment deadline.** 

### 12 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay, we'll work** 

### 13 **on that.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: The Department says** 

### 15 **they'll work on it for the record.** 

### 16 **Yes, Joanna.** 

### 17 **MS. MAUER: Just a follow-up,** 

### 18 **because it's only a week away if there's any** 

### 19 **way you could give us an indication that it** 

### 20 **will be extended as soon as possible that** 

### 21 **would be very much appreciated.** 

### 22 **MR. MAJETTE: We'll have a chat.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 We'll consider it. We're going to consider**  

### 2 **it.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Jon.** 

### 4 **MR. LEMMOND: This is Jon at AHRI.** 

### 5 **Just to add on to that. I have some** 

### 6 **requests out to testing labs, to** 

### 7 **manufacturers to collect data. I am still** 

### 8 **working on getting things back, so it's quite** 

### 9 **possible that I won't get anything back next** 

### 10 **week. We shouldn't have a problem putting** 

### 11 **comments together quickly as soon as we get** 

### 12 **data, but the longer, more time we have and** 

### 13 **more time I have to push for data requests,** 

### 14 **the more we'll be able to provide.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So thanks** 

### 16 **for that request.** 

### 17 **Now as I had said previously,** 

### 18 **final comments as we move toward closure?** 

### 19 **For my part, thanks to all of you** 

### 20 **and I'll turn it back to Ron Majette. Thank** 

### 21 **you. Fill out the evaluation form, please.** 

### 22 **MR. MAJETTE: All right, great job**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 from all of our presenters. And great job of**  

### 2 **our audience who collectively ganged up on us** 

### 3 **and made us push the date back. That's fine.** 

### 4 **It looks like right now we do have** 

### 5 **March 25th, so we will probably extend it by** 

### 6 **30 days, so we'll get a blast out soon to** 

### 7 **make that official.** 

### 8 **I just wanted to go over the fine** 

### 9 **tuned comments or fine-tuned pieces here.** 

### 10 **Make sure any comments that you respond back** 

### 11 **to us make sure it has the PTAC/PTHP** 

### 12 **rulemaking labeled on it so we know which** 

### 13 **comments it goes to.** 

### 14 **We also want to make sure you** 

### 15 **refer to the provided docket number and the** 

### 16 **regulatory identification number to make sure** 

### 17 **we are correct in applying the comments to** 

### 18 **the right rulemakings. We've listed the** 

### 19 **email address, and of course, you have our** 

### 20 **mailing address and all the other good stuff.** 

### 21 **If you have any direct questions or concerns** 

### 22 **you can always give me a call, but of course,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 I have to stay with the script, so you're not**  

### 2 **going to get any different information from** 

### 3 **me than you received here today.** 

### 4 **Again, one time, did anybody have** 

### 5 **any last questions or comments that they** 

### 6 **wanted to give us? If not, thank you very** 

### 7 **much. Appreciate your coming.** 

### 8 **(Whereupon, at 10:45 a.m., the** 

### 9 **public meeting was concluded.)** 

### 10 **11 12**  **13 14**  **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 

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### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123 written 62:4 87:17 Y Y 68:4 year 13:3 31:15

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69:14 101:13,14 101:18 102:16 104:2 93 3:13 95 18:3NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

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03-08-13

Washington, DC