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1 Environmental Protection Agency

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6 Clean Power Plan 

7 Supplemental Proposal Hearing 

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13 9:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.

14 Wednesday, November 19, 2014

15

16 Phoenix Convention Center 

17 100 North Third Street

18 Phoenix, AZ 85004

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2 EPA Panel:

3 GREG GREEN

4 MELANIE KING

5 LAURA MCKELLY

6 WILL NIEBLING

7 ANITA LEE

8 AMY ZIMFER

9 LAURA FERRIS

10 COLLEN MCCONN

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1

2 C O N T E N T S

3 PAGE

4 LOUIE HENA - Citizen 12

5 DONNA HOUSE - Navajo Nation Citizen 13

6 CHRISTIAN STUMPF - American Lung Association 17

7 DAVID CRABTREE - Deseret Power 22

8 LUKE JOHNSON - Ft. Mojave Tribe 28

9 MARY KEE - Navajo Tribe 32

10 GLORIA BABBIT - Citizen 34

11 SID ABMA - Sidel Systems 36

12 BRAD CHARLES - Navajo Nation 42

13 ELOISE BROWN - Doda Desert Rock Organization 43

14 CINDY POWERS - Citzen 48

15 MARIE PEARTHREE - CAWCD 52

16 LT. GOVERNOR STEVEN LEWIS - Citizen 56

17 PERCY DEAL - Navajo Reservation 60

18 ANDY BESSLER - NTA 66

19 STEPHEN BRITTLE - Don’t Waste Arizona 71

20 COLLEN COOLEY - Navajo Nation 77

21 HANSON ASHLEY - Citizen 82

22 JACEY BROWN - Citizen 83

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1 THURMAN THOMAS - Citizen 84

2 C O N T E N T S (continued)

3 MARSHAL JOHNSON - Citizen 86

4 RAINA SILVER - Citizen 90

5 WAHLEAH JOHNS - Citizen 94

6 NADINE PADILLA - Navajo Nation 100

7 GRAHAM BEYALE - Citizen 103

8 KRIS BARNEY - Citizen 106

9 JIHAN GEARON - Black Mesa Water Coalition 111

10 MOLLY HOGUE - Citizen 116

11 JOVAN BEGAY - Citizen 119

12 EVELYN BEGAY - Citizen 119

13 HOPE MCDONALD LONETREE - Citizen 123

14 MARY BABBITT-MALONEY - Citizen 127

15 ZACHARIA BEN - Citizen 130

16 LAWRENCE GOODE - Citizen 133

17 GLEN MANYGOATS - Citizen 133

18 TEROLD CHARLEY - Citizen 138

19 VINCENT YAZZIE - Citizen 147

20 JOANNE CHISSIE - Citizen 150

21 LIZA HOGUE - Citizen 156

22 ANDREW BEDONEY - Citizen 157

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1 CHARLIE MITCHELL III - Citizen 160

2 C O N T E N T S (continued)

3 URVIN YAZZIE - Citizen 165

4 SARADA JAMES - Citizen 167

5 RAYMOND BEGAY - Citizen 167

6 ELSA JOHNSON - Citizen 168

7 KLEE BENALLY - Clean up the Mines 171

8 SUPAI WATERS - Medicine Man 177

9 SARAH JANE WHITE - Citizen 184

10 VICTORIA GUTIERREZ - Citizen 190

11 KELLY BARR - Salt River Project 194

12 ARLENE RIVERA - Citizen 197

13 MARK LEWIS - Director, Maricopa County 199

14 STEVEN ETSITTY - Navajo Nation EPA 203

15 NANCY NESKY - Arizona Public Service Co. 209

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1

2 P R O C E E D I N G S

3 MR. GREEN: Good morning, everyone. I'm 

4 going to go ahead and open up the public hearing. 

5 My name is Greg Green and I am one of the chairs 

6 of today's public hearing, and I'd like to thank 

7 you all for coming today. 

8 Joining me on the panel this morning are 

9 Melanie King, to my left, Amy Zempher, and Laura 

10 McKelly on the end. We're here today to listen 

11 to your comments on the Clean Power Plan 

12 Supplemental Proposal for Power plants in Indian 

13 Country and U.S. Territories. EPA announced this 

14 proposed rule on October 28th, 2014 and published 

15 it in the Federal Register on November 4th, 2014. 

16 Power plants are the largest source of 

17 carbon pollution in the United States, accounting 

18 for roughly one third of all domestic greenhouse 

19 gas emissions. Like the Clean Power Plan 

20 Proposal for States, this supplemental proposal 

21 sets area specific goals for areas of Indian 

22 country and U.S. territories with affected power 

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1 plants and provides options for meeting those 

2 goals in a flexible manner that accommodates a 

3 diverse range of approaches.

4 EPA is following through on its 

5 commitment in the June 2014 Clean Power Plan 

6 Proposal to issue a supplemental proposal to 

7 address these sources. 

8 This supplemental proposal relies on the 

9 approach used in the June 2014 Clean Power Plan 

10 proposal and is based on new information and data 

11 provided through additional outreach to covered 

12 facilities in trial and territorial governments.

13 The supplemental proposal has two main 

14 elements. One, emission rate based goals 

15 specific to each area of Indian country and U.S. 

16 territories that are affected by electric 

17 generation units and two guidelines for the 

18 development, submission, and implementation of 

19 plans to achieve these goals. The goal is a 

20 target for areas to meet by 2030 while starting 

21 to make meaningful progress towards reductions by 

22 2020. EPA is proposing a two-part goal 

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1 structure, an interim goal for an area to meet on 

2 average over the 10 year period from 2020 to 

3 2030, and a final goal for an area to meet at the 

4 end of that period in 2030 and thereafter.

5 EPA is not prescribing a specific set of 

6 measures for an area to put in a plan and a tribe 

7 with jurisdiction over an affected power plant in 

8 this area has the opportunity but not the 

9 obligation to establish a plan for its area of 

10 Indian country. 

11 For Indian country EPA is proposing goals 

12 for affected power plants within the Navajo 

13 Nation, the Ute Tribe of the Uenta and Uray 

14 Reservation and a Fort Mojave tribe. 

15 For territories EPA is proposing goals 

16 for Puerto Rico and Guam only. The EPA is not 

17 proposing goals for American Samoa, Northern 

18 Marana Islands, or the U.S. Virgin Islands.

19 I'd like to thank you for taking time out 

20 today to join us and share your comments. Before 

21 we get started I'd like to go through a few 

22 housekeeping items and ground rules that will 

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1 help make today's hearing run smoothly.

2 First, please be sure you have checked in 

3 at the registration desk, even if you are not 

4 planning to speak today. And if you've signed up 

5 to speak online or by phone but haven't told us 

6 that you're here, please step out to the 

7 registration desk and let EPA staff know that 

8 you've arrived.

9 Here is how today's hearing will work. I 

10 will call speakers up in pairs. When your name 

11 is called please come to the table in front of 

12 the room. When I call on you to speak please 

13 state your name and spell it for the court 

14 reporter. Your comments will be transcribed and 

15 included in the record of comments on the 

16 proposed rule. 

17 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

18 give comments. We have a light to help you know 

19 how much time you have left to speak. When the 

20 light turns from green to yellow that means you 

21 have one minute remaining. When the light turns 

22 red that's the signal to wrap up your testimony. 

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1 The light will flash when you have spoken for 

2 five minutes and it's time to stop. 

3 When you are finished speaking please 

4 remain at the table until the person next to you 

5 has completed his or her testimony. We are here 

6 to listen to you today, however, a panel member 

7 may ask questions to clarify your comments. 

8 I will then call up the next pair of 

9 speakers and so on, throughout the day. 

10 If you have brought a written copy of 

11 your testimony please give that to the staff at 

12 the registration desk before you leave today. If 

13 you have additional comments you would like to 

14 make you can submit them in writing. Information 

15 about how to submit comments to the docket is 

16 available at the registration desk. You can also 

17 submit written comments at the registration desk 

18 itself.

19 Comments must be received by December 

20 19th, 2014. We will put any written comments 

21 submitted today in the official docket for the 

22 proposed rule. Instructions for submitting 

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1 written comments in other ways are available at 

2 the material table near the registration desk. 

3 We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

4 tonight and we'll take lunch and dinner breaks so 

5 everyone can get something to eat. 

6 Right now the lunch break is scheduled 

7 for noon and the dinner break is scheduled for 

8 5:00. We may take occasional short breaks 

9 throughout the day as needed. We'll keep you 

10 posted as the day goes on.

11 If you have any questions during the day 

12 please see the staff at the registration desk and 

13 someone will try to help you. 

14 Finally I'd like to ask each of you to 

15 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

16 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

17 views in the audience and we want to hear from 

18 all of you. So that we can do that and be fair 

19 to everyone, we ask that everyone listen quietly. 

20 Even applause can slow things down and we want to 

21 hear from everyone who has signed up to speak.

22 Thank you again for taking the time today 

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1 to share your comments on EPA's proposed rule and 

2 we're now ready to get started. The first two 

3 speakers we'd like to have come up are Louie Hena 

4 and Donna House.

5 And we'd like to ask Mr. Hena to speak 

6 first and please remember to spell your last name 

7 for the court reporter.

8 MR. HENA: Good morning. Louie Hena, H9 E-N-A. 

10 MR. GREEN: Yes. Go ahead. Thank you.

11 MR. HENA: I am in favor of the plan. 

12 You are the Environmental Protection Agency. You 

13 are here to protect Earth Mom and I would like to 

14 recommend that agencies that are cuffing your 

15 hands behind your back to stop. I come from an 

16 area where yesterday I was walking in Aspens and 

17 snow and conifer trees at an elevation of 10,500 

18 feet. The models for my future in that area, 

19 it's going to look like Phoenix, no trees, no 

20 snow.

21 I would like my grandchildren's 

22 grandchildren to experience what I've experienced 

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1 in my lifetime, there in my locale. We have no 

2 generating stations in my locale. However, I get 

3 acid rain. I see the trees, the poplar trees are 

4 going away. My daughters are child-bearing age 

5 now. They cannot eat the fish because of the 

6 mercury content in the fish. And that's here in 

7 the Southwest.

8 And so, yes, please do your jobs, protect 

9 Earth Mom. And I would also recommend looking at 

10 alternative solar energy. Look at all the sun 

11 that you have here in Phoenix. I haven't seen 

12 any solar arrays out there. And so I say again, 

13 you are the Environmental Protection Agency. 

14 Please protect Earth Mom. Thank you.

15 MR. GREEN: Thank you, Mr. Hena. Ms.

16 Summers. Ms. House.

17 MS. HOUSE: (Speaking in native 

18 language.)

19 Donna House, a citizen of the Navajo 

20 Nation and right now I do think that EPA's 

21 proposal, the two options that you have for 

22 Navajo Nation, and also the other tribes, are 

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1 absolutely extremely, ridiculously low. They are 

2 way lower than what's required of the states. 

3 I think using tribal authority rule to 

4 reduce it to this point where it's totally 

5 insignificant from my point of view as far as 

6 looking at the State of Arizona that is required 

7 to reduce their Co2 emission to 52 percent and 

8 the Navajo's is right now looking up to 6 percent 

9 reduction. I mean, that is extremely low.

10 Same with New Mexico. New Mexico is 

11 required down to 34 percent, and again, up to 6 

12 percent. So I do believe that you are not 

13 looking at this as a clear piece as far as the 

14 protection of Native people that have been there 

15 for centuries and centuries.

16 You know, by looking at the difference in 

17 the different options that you've presented, this 

18 is an environmental injustice. The Navajo 

19 generating station and the Four Corner Power 

20 plants are among the largest sources of carbon 

21 pollution in Indian country. And until now they 

22 have been allowed to pump unlimited carbon 

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1 pollution. 

2 At each hearing I see that we are 

3 constantly cutting the requirements of tribal 

4 lands. Especially the Navajo when it comes to 

5 power plants generating pollution, looking at the 

6 hearings before. 

7 The tribal communities are in the front 

8 line of climate disruption, threatening the 

9 health and eco systems that land-based people 

10 depend upon. The tribal community deserves an 

11 equal and strong carbon power plan that protects 

12 the health and our communities.

13 I have looked at the building blocks, and 

14 I have details as far as like what I recommend as 

15 far as looking at the Building Block 1, Building 

16 Block 2, Building Block 3, and Building Block 4. 

17 And it's quite detailed so what I'm going to do 

18 is submit that into comments later on. But I 

19 will give you an example of like Building Block 

20 4, EPA should be more -- should use more recent 

21 accurate cost data and should eliminate any 

22 cross-state discounting of efficiency resources 

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1 to ensure efficiency is fully considered as a 

2 resource for all power plants, whether or not 

3 they are exporting across jurisdictional lines.

4 But I have details addressing concerns 

5 and recommendations for each of the building 

6 blocks.

7 In closing I believe EPA is not doing 

8 their job. You are not protecting the health of 

9 the Deni people the Hopi people and the 

10 ecosystems that they depend on. You know, when 

11 you're looking at climate change the impact is 

12 going to be on the frontline communities, and 

13 those are the people that live right there.

14 I see a lot of studies coming out looking 

15 at the cost benefits, but not looking at the 

16 health of the communities and the eco systems. I 

17 am a botanist. I have done work on the Navajo 

18 and have seen the decline of pollinators. 

19 I see the yellow light coming. 

20 And I see the decline of species. I 

21 don't believe that EPA is looking out in the best 

22 interest of our people and looking at the future 

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1 as far as impacts of climate change. Thank you.

2 MS. MCKELLY: Thank you.

3 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much, and you 

4 can leave your comments at the registration desk 

5 if you'd like for us to submit those.

6 If we could, if we could hold the talking 

7 down just a little bit in the back, that would be 

8 helpful to the speakers. 

9 Our next speakers are Christian Stumpf 

10 and David Crabtree. Mr. Stump will go first.

11 MR. STUMPF: Thank you and good morning. 

12 My name is Christian Stump, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N S13 T-U-M-P-F. And I'm the regional director of 

14 public policy for the American Lung Association 

15 of the Southwest, and I appreciate the 

16 opportunity to speak today on the importance of 

17 reducing carbon pollution throughout the United 

18 States, as well as in the area of the Indian 

19 country and U.S. territories where fossil fuel 

20 plants are located. 

21 I'm going to talk a little bit about 

22 health impacts of climate change. The American 

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1 Lung Association is committed to fighting carbon 

2 pollution because doing so helps save lives and 

3 improves lung health. Even with the steps that 

4 are in place to reduce air pollution evidence 

5 warns that higher temperatures due to carbon 

6 pollution and climate change will increase the 

7 risk of unhealthy air in large parts of the 

8 United States because heat enhances conditions 

9 for ozone formation and particular matter.

10 For those who live with chronic lung 

11 disease ozone and particulate matter can cause 

12 difficulty breathing, asthma attacks, and 

13 premature death, and have been linked to low 

14 birth weight in newborns. 

15 Children are vulnerable because their 

16 airways are still developing. Even healthy 

17 children who grow up where ozone levels are high 

18 may be at greater risk for lung disease later in 

19 life. Particulate matter is linked to heart 

20 attacks and strokes.

21 In addition to worsened air quality the 

22 recent National Climate Assessment highlights 

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1 other critical health impacts from climate change 

2 that are being felt across the nation, including 

3 heat waves, wild fires, drought, and excessive 

4 parcipitation, flooding, dust storms, and more. 

5 All of these events have very serious public 

6 health consequences that we must not ignore. 

7 Reducing carbon pollution from all power plants 

8 is an important step in the right direction.

9 Some of the co-benefits of reducing 

10 carbon pollution, cleaning up carbon pollution 

11 will help public health immediately. Steps to 

12 reduce carbon pollution will cut emissions of 

13 other toxic air pollutants including nitrogen 

14 oxide, sulfur dioxide, and mercury.

15 Nitrogen oxide irritates the lungs, 

16 triggers asthma, and increases the risk of 

17 infections. Sulfur dioxide triggers asthma 

18 attacks and increases the risk of hospitalization 

19 and emergency room visits. These pollutants are 

20 also known as precursors to ozone and particulate 

21 matter as I have previously discussed.

22 It is vital that the EPA both calculate 

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1 and inform the public of these important life 

2 saving co-benefits of reducing carbon pollution 

3 from power plants. A separate study confirms 

4 that co-benefits from reducing carbon pollution 

5 are real, but that doing too little may prove 

6 harmful. Strong limits on carbon pollution from 

7 existing power plants could improve air quality 

8 an prevent an estimated 3,500 premature deaths in 

9 2020, along with other significant benefits to 

10 human health according to an analysis released in 

11 September by researchers from Harvard University, 

12 Syracuse University, and Boston University.

13 The study compared business as usual 

14 conditions with three alternatives for limiting 

15 carbon pollution from power plants. Results show 

16 that a strong, enforceable, and flexible approach 

17 to reducing carbon pollution would reduce 

18 emissions of other harmful pollutants and sulfur 

19 dioxide, and that nitrogen oxides by about 

20 775,000 tons each year.

21 In addition to reducing premature deaths, 

22 the strongest options avoided 530 to 1,500 

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1 hospital admissions for cardiovascular and 

2 respiratory diseases in 2020. As a result of 

3 lower emissions all of the lower 48 states would 

4 experience cleaner air. These are suggested 

5 improvements.

6 The American Lung Association will submit 

7 detailed technical comments separately to EPA, 

8 however let me close with these key points. EPA 

9 must ensure that the plan adopted recognizes that 

10 the reduction in carbon and in these additional 

11 pollutants will provide critical relief to people 

12 who live near power plants and who have suffered 

13 from these pollutants for decades. Across the 

14 nation those communities are often high 

15 population and lower income, and with existing 

16 lung diseases and other chronic diseases. 

17 The American Lung Association does not 

18 support biomass combustion for electricity 

19 production, a category that includes wood, wood 

20 products, agricultural residue, or forest waste, 

21 and potentially highly toxic feed stock such as 

22 construction and demolition waste. If biomass is 

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1 combusted state of the art pollution controls 

2 must be required.

3 We appreciate EPA's commitment to 

4 quantifiable, non-duplicative, permanent, 

5 verifiable, and enforceable plans. EPA must be 

6 clear that the final standards must be 

7 enforceable, not just by EPA but by citizens and 

8 citizens group. We urge EPA to clearly spell out 

9 the timing and process to enforce a federal plan 

10 for areas that failed to meet the requirement. 

11 Thank you.

12 MR. GREEN: All right. Thank you very 

13 much. Mr. Crabtree?

14 MR. CRABTREE: Thank you. I appreciate 

15 the opportunity to speak to you this morning. My 

16 name is David Crabtree, C-R-A-B-T-R-E-E. I work 

17 for Deseret Power. Deseret Power is a member 

18 owned cooperative with electric generation 

19 transmission system located in the State of Utah.

20 Deseret serves six rural distribution 

21 systems and is the sole all requirement source 

22 for electric power and energy to these systems. 

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1 Those systems provide all of the electric power 

2 and the projected needs for future development in 

3 some of the economically at-risk areas, the rural 

4 communities and tribal lands in parts of Nevada, 

5 Utah, Arizona, Colorado, and Wyoming.

6 Deseret has one principle generating 

7 resource that it owns and operates, the Bonanza 

8 Plant, a single-unit coal plant. The communities 

9 served by Deseret's member system are sparsely 

10 populated with electric customer densities often 

11 measured in miles per meter rather than meters 

12 per mile. Most of the communalities lie within 

13 counties that are economically at risk, include 

14 specially sensitive tribal communities, as well 

15 as challenged communities located in rugged 

16 geographical areas surrounded by federally 

17 protected lands.

18 Following the enactment of the power 

19 plants and industrial fuel use act of 1978, these 

20 communities banded together to invest in a 50-

21 plus-year investment for base load generating 

22 resource, which became the Bonanza unit. The 

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1 federal statute at that time required that the 

2 base load generating unit must be constructed to 

3 use coal. It was not an option to use 

4 alternative fuels under that law.

5 For a better part of two decades the 

6 consumers in these small communities and tribal 

7 areas paid premiums for their power from this 

8 newer base load resource. As one of the newest 

9 such plants to be constructed it received no 

10 grandfathered status under the Clean Air Act, it 

11 was required to meet the highest standards of 

12 best available control technology from day one.

13 The families of these rural and tribal 

14 communities played by all the rules. They paid 

15 higher prices for electricity at the beginning, 

16 knowing that eventually their long-term 

17 investment would pay dividends in stable rates 

18 and ample energy supply, which was badly needed 

19 to attract business development in their areas.

20 Now the rules are about to be changed 

21 significantly. These communities are especially 

22 vulnerable to fluctuations in electricity rates, 

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1 with sensitivities for already marginal economic 

2 development, business development, and 

3 relocation, particularly at risk to price 

4 sensitivities. 

5 Small systems, such as Deseret, have no 

6 large investor base to draw from. We are 

7 customer owned and cooperatively operated. 

8 Deseret has no large urban customer base across 

9 which to spread increased operating expenses. 

10 Much of the power and energy generated by 

11 Deseret's generation systems was long ago 

12 committed under long-term power sales, agreements 

13 to third-party utilities, and Deseret has only 

14 limited ability to pass through increases in cost 

15 to those long-term purchasers. 

16 As a result the increased cost of 

17 compliance will fall disproportionately on the 

18 rural and tribal customers who depend on Deseret 

19 as sole source all requirement supplier. 

20 In considering the proposed supplemental 

21 rule, discretion should be exercised in 

22 implementing it to take into account the 

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1 disproportionate cost impacts the proposed rule 

2 will have on small utilities, especially those 

3 like Desert.

4 These small utilities have significantly 

5 fewer resources at their disposal to comply with 

6 the proposed rule. There are no alternative 

7 electric suppliers to serve these small utilities 

8 customers.

9 Deseret's rural member systems in 

10 particular could be adversely impacted by the 

11 disproportionate facts of the proposed rule. EPA 

12 states in the proposed Rule 111D rulemaking for 

13 state jurisdictional entities that, and I quote, 

14 "The unique circumstances of each individual 

15 state," end quote, should be considered.

16 Deseret feels strongly that EPA should 

17 likewise take account of the unique circumstances 

18 of the Bonanza Plant as the sole affected source 

19 within the designated Uenta Uray Reservation. It 

20 is not logical, nor fair, in the estimation of 

21 Deseret, to require carbon reductions on this 

22 newer unit at the same rate, on the same 

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1 schedule, as units that were constructed and have 

2 operated unhindered of carbon constraints for 10, 

3 15, 20, or more years longer than our plant.

4 Finally, as noted above, the Uenta Uray 

5 affected resource, the Bonanza unit is a single6 unit resource. The year 2012, on which the 

7 standard is based and was developed, in that year 

8 Bonanza experienced prolonged and unusual outages 

9 due to plant maintenance outages that are usually 

10 only scheduled once every few years. 2012 is not 

11 a representative year on which to base Bonanza's 

12 carbon standard.

13 Finally I'd like to just speak one word 

14 about the dedicated Union Mine Forest at the 

15 Deserato Coal Mine. That coal mine is in Western 

16 Colorado, is the largest employer in the county 

17 and that part of the state. That community 

18 relies on that coal plant, on that coalmine. The 

19 only market for the coal from that mine is the 

20 Bonanza Plant. Reductions in output at the 

21 Bonanza Plant mean reductions at the coalmine. 

22 No way around it. We care about those miners and 

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1 we care about their community. Those miners and 

2 their family have invested in years of mortgages 

3 for their homes. They need careers that will 

4 last. 

5 We'll supplement our comments further and 

6 expand on what we've said. Thank you for your 

7 time.

8 MR. GREEN: Thank you, Mr. Crabtree. Our 

9 next speakers are Luke Johnson and Mary Rose Key.

10 Ms. Kee. 

11 Mr. Johnson, you'll speak first. Please 

12 spell your last name for the court reporter.

13 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, thank you. My name is 

14 Luke Johnson, L-U-K-E, Johnson, J-O-H-N-S-O-N. 

15 I'm from the Fort Mojave Tribe, which is 

16 in the tri-state are of Nevada, California, and 

17 Arizona. 

18 I appreciate listening to my fellow 

19 tribal people from across the country, hearing 

20 their comments about Mother Earth and keeping it 

21 clean. We all have that same concept of keeping 

22 Mother Earth clean. She brought us here and gave 

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1 us energy types over the years. And in our study 

2 of energy it's an ever changing paradigm that's 

3 just going to change from this generation to the 

4 next generation. 

5 Right now we're seeing a huge 

6 environmental impact by coal-generated power 

7 plants. When we began our study of putting a

8 power plant on our reservation, we took a look at 

9 a different paradigm of natural gas. There was a 

10 coal-fired power plant in our area, not on our 

11 land but in our area, that was emitting huge 

12 amounts of unwanted clean air. In fact I think 

13 people used to call it the dirtiest coal plant in 

14 all of America. But it's gone. 

15 So what remains in the Mojave Valley now 

16 is a natural gas fired power plant. Other types 

17 of energy that we look at from Mother Earth and 

18 the great sprit that he gave us, is renewable 

19 energy. We look at the sun. The sun has been 

20 there for billions of years. What a source of 

21 energy we can capture the idea of how that works. 

22 So we are presently confronted with coal 

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1 and the big imprint it makes. And we are very 

2 fortunate that we took the opportunity we had 

3 with Calpine to have natural gas fired plant on 

4 our reservation, which creates a smaller 

5 footprint. And we are looking at renewable 

6 energy which will even be a less footprint upon 

7 Mother Earth.

8 So that's the idea. We have to take a 

9 look at these energy sources and the paradigm 

10 that is attached to it and we will always be 

11 changed to something, to a better and better 

12 system. So that's the way I really encourage my 

13 tribal people to go.

14 So yesterday at ITCA, Calpine and myself, 

15 we were able to sit and talk with you folks about 

16 the proposed plan that you're having for clean 

17 power in the Southwest of America. And 

18 interesting, there's four tribes, Navajo, the Ute 

19 Tribe, and also the Fort Mojave tribe. And out 

20 of those tribes we are the one that has the 

21 natural gas fired plant capability, and that’s 

22 how we operate. We're operating at a 520 

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1 megawatt natural gas fired power plant. So 

2 that's where we're at.

3 And also interestingly, I think when I 

4 came to the meeting yesterday I was more in my 

5 mind thinking that maybe EPA was having some hard 

6 fast rules that were going to be coming down upon 

7 the tribal people with power plants, but not so. 

8 It is a proposal. You're asking for ideas, 

9 you're asking for comment as to how our footprint 

10 would impact the Southwest, and I'm grateful for 

11 that. So it's going to allow us to go back home, 

12 take a look at the natural power plant system 

13 that we have, and see how we can develop a plan 

14 to better that. 

15 Among all people that have power plants, 

16 the objective is to generate as much electricity 

17 as we can and so forth. And so from your 

18 viewpoint, it's to preserve the footprint of 

19 carbon upon the land. So we have to put the two 

20 plants together. And we can do that, so that's 

21 our intended purpose, is to go back home, take a 

22 look at these building blocks, take a look at the 

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1 proposal as it is, and submit comment as to how 

2 we can improve our plan to you folks. Thank you.

3 MR. GREEN: Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Ms. 

4 Key.

5 MS. KEE: My name is Mary Kee. I come 

6 from the Tun Lee, Arizona, north of Flagstaff, 

7 close to Page, we live there, and we need clean 

8 air for our people, our elders and young people 

9 and small kids. And we have a problem with those 

10 things and then our -- then the grass won't grow 

11 back because the air is not clean. That's why it 

12 gets all the things that the grass is gone, no 

13 rain, and then our sheep and our sheep, they eat 

14 grass, but there is none and we, Navajo people, 

15 we use some those traditional grasses are gone. 

16 Now we only can depend on the hospital 

17 but I don't know what they use. Those pills, we 

18 tell them what comes from that. Take these 

19 pills, they said, but we never get well on that 

20 pill and we just go down down. I don't know what 

21 it is. So there is -- we need air clean up, 

22 everything that these -- right there for us. And 

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1 the water too.

2 A lot of things are just not in -- it's 

3 not working right, and they don't listen to us or 

4 we complain about those things. They don't 

5 listen to us. So that's how hard up people are 

6 up there. That's about it.

7 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much, Ms. Kee. 

8 (Pause.) 

9 MR. GREEN: Okay. Our next speakers are 

10 Gloria Babbit and Sid Abma. 

11 MR. ABMA: That's me.

12 MR. GREEN: All right. You're on next. 

13 You are Gloria Babbit? 

14 (No audible response.) 

15 MR. GREEN: MR. Abma.

16 MR. ABMA: Oh, okay.

17 MR. GREEN: Do we have a Gloria Babbit? 

18 Front table, please.

19 Gloria Babbit?

20 THE INTERPRETER: She's coming.

21 MR. GREEN: Okay. She's coming. Ms. 

22 Babbit will go first, so we'll --

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1 MR. ABMA: Oh, okay. That's fine.

2 MR. GREEN: -- wait for her.

3 MS. BABBIT: Hello.

4 MR. ABMA: Hello, there. How are you 

5 today? 

6 MS. BABBIT: (Speaking in native 

7 language.)

8 MR. GREEN: We have a translator here 

9 that may be able to help us out. Ms. Babbit is 

10 first.

11 (Testimony through a translator.)

12 THE INTERPRETER: Can I use that one or 

13 not? That's not wired? 

14 MR. ABMA: It's up to these folks.

15 MR. GREEN: We prefer you --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Oh, okay. All right. 

17 MR. GREEN: Yeah. Go ahead. All right. 

18 Go ahead, please. Ms. Babbit has five minutes.

19 MS. BABBIT: You that are seated there, 

20 hello to all of you. I'm going to talk to you 

21 now.

22 I'm concerned about the bad air that's 

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1 surrounded us near Page. We don't like it. All 

2 the people that live out there, the people that I 

3 live with, do not like it. And so that's why I'm 

4 addressing you now. We want that to stop. 

5 There's many of us who say the same thing. Those 

6 that I live with, there are a lot of people out 

7 there, elderlies, men, young men, kids, some of 

8 them have sheep, horses, cattle, dogs and it's 

9 not good for them, this bad air. It's not good 

10 for them.

11 And so I say, I oppose this. It is 

12 dangerous, this smoke that's emitted is 

13 dangerous. Yes. That's why people have lost 

14 their lives. My son was working there and for no 

15 reason he died. I blame that, and that's why I'm 

16 opposing the bad air. That's what I wanted to 

17 tell you now, those that are seated there. Are 

18 you listening to me? So you can hear me. 

19 That's it, my son. 

20 MS. MCKELLY: Thank you.

21 MR. GREEN: Thank you, Ms. Babbit. Yes, 

22 we heard you. 

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1 For the court reporter, her last name is 

2 spelled, B-A-B-B-I-T. Thank you very much.

3 Mr. Abma. 

4 MR. ABMA: Thank you, EPA for this 

5 opportunity. This is an important issue. It 

6 starts with American and our need for electrical 

7 energy. 

8 As with any issue there are always two 

9 sides to the coin. On the one side is the energy 

10 that is required to produce this electricity. We 

11 have a choice between natural gas and coal, 

12 fossil fuels, to provide electricity 24/7, and we 

13 have renewables that produce during the right 

14 conditions.

15 On the other side of the coin are the 

16 environmental aspects, and we all know there is 

17 no way we want to have an air environment 

18 anywhere similar to China or India. Thank you, 

19 EPA.

20 America is blessed to have an abundance 

21 of coal and natural gas and I believe we have to 

22 continue to use both of these energy sources. 

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1 Today natural gas is considered to be the clean 

2 energy source, and the new emissions regulations 

3 being worked on by the EPA are based on their 

4 numbers. In order for the coal industry to 

5 comply they basically have to have the 

6 technologies provided to them to aid them into 

7 compliance. Carbon capture sequestration is one 

8 such very expensive technology. When it is used 

9 near the power plant site to aide in the 

10 production of producing oil or natural gas, the 

11 sequestration then has a purpose.

12 Our company, Sidel Systems, believes in 

13 an efficient America. We believe that coal can 

14 be combusted in compliance with these new EPA 

15 regulations. In fact we believe that we can 

16 assist the coal industry to combust this coal in 

17 a way that will be much cleaner than natural gas.

18 The Sidel CCU System starts at ash 

19 particulate removal. Currently coal power plants 

20 are applying a number of different technologies 

21 to remove the particulate as best as possible and 

22 to deal with what is not captured is to install 

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1 large blower fans to hopefully blow the 

2 particulate into a higher air stream in order to 

3 disburse this left over particulate over a larger 

4 area. 

5 Sidel Systems has developed an ash 

6 recovery system that was developed for another 

7 industry that will also work for coal at 

8 approximately 25 percent of the operating cost of 

9 these existing technologies. And it will work 

10 effectively during all environmental conditions 

11 and particulate size.

12 Sidel Systems has been applying the 

13 technology of condensing through gas heat 

14 recovery for increased natural gas energy 

15 efficiency for over 30 years. Recovering the 

16 heat energy is a fairly straightforward 

17 technology. Transfer the heat and the combusted 

18 exhaust into water, then utilize that recovered 

19 heat. 

20 Sidel Systems has redesigned our Asser U 

21 Series Flue Gas Condensers so that we are now 

22 capable to do heat recovery on coal exhaust. 

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1 Coal exhaust is different than natural gas 

2 exhaust, but the goal is the same. Instead of 

3 hot exhaust, cool exhaust will be vented into the 

4 atmosphere. This is done to help reduce global 

5 warming.

6 On the other side of the coin the biggest 

7 environmental issue facing the coal power plants 

8 is their Co2 emissions. Sidel Systems has 

9 developed a carbon capture utilization system 

10 that regenerates the Co2 in this combusted coal 

11 exhaust into byproducts that are salable or into 

12 a product that will help reduce the amount of 

13 coal required for combustion.

14 Our technology for Co2 removal utilizes a 

15 combination of a mean scrubbing and quick lime 

16 absorption to maximize carbon capture. We will 

17 capture more Co2 pound for pound than any other 

18 absorbent currently being utilized. Our process 

19 will create revenue generating byproducts, 

20 including calcium carbonate, raw stock bio-fuel, 

21 and will aid in the production of algae and other 

22 food producing crops.

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1 Our carbon capture utilization process 

2 offers multiple benefits to communities where the 

3 coal fired power plants are located. Including 

4 removal of the generated Co2 byproducts, and 

5 potential job creation and hydroponic agriculture 

6 producing food products, bio-fuel development, or 

7 algae production. 

8 Our goal in developing this technology 

9 was to do so with the lowest capital cost 

10 compared to other current systems to have a low 

11 operating cost and to reduce the utilities energy 

12 penalty and mitigation costs. 

13 Our process has received preliminary 

14 review from the Department of Energy, and we are 

15 waiting to receive a date to proceed with testing 

16 at the National Carbon Capture Center. Once 

17 America's coal industry is operating cleaner than 

18 natural gas, we will then have to help the 

19 natural gas power plants reduce their waste heat 

20 and Co2 emissions. They may be considered the 

21 clean fossil fuel energy, but they still vent Co2 

22 and heat energy into the atmosphere, and this Co2 

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1 and waste heat energy also needs to be utilized 

2 efficiently. 

3 The goal of our newly formed company, S & 

4 G Environmental, is to help provide America with 

5 cleaner air, with the economic benefits of job 

6 creation and food production, and the ability to 

7 continue operating America's coal fired power 

8 plants and their attached industries, and exceed 

9 these new EPA regulations. Our goal is for a 

10 win/win situation for building owners and 

11 industry and the environment.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. GREEN: All right. Thank you very 

14 much. Could you state your name and spell your 

15 last name for the court reporter?

16 MR. ABMA: My name is Sid Abma, A-B-M-A. 

17 S-I-D A-B-M-A. 

18 MR. GREEN: All right. Thank you very 

19 much, both of you.

20 Okay. Our next speakers are Brad Charles 

21 and Eloise Brown. Mr. Charles would go first, 

22 and both of you, before you speak, if we could 

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1 get you to state your name and spell your last 

2 name for the court reporter, that would be great. 

3 Thank you.

4 MR. CHARLES: My name is Brad Charles. 

5 C-H-A-R-L-E-S. 

6 I came to speak on behalf of the youth 

7 and the elders of the Navajo nation. When I was 

8 small growing up it was beautiful outside. I 

9 would walk outside and see crystal blue skies. 

10 When I walk out now and I look outside, all I see 

11 is yellow. Yellow everywhere. Yellow within our 

12 sacred boundaries and it's eating up everything.

13 We try to stop the coal power plants that 

14 were within our area, but they somehow seem to 

15 keep going through. I'm tired of it. I'm tired 

16 of seeing yellow everywhere. I'm tired of not 

17 breathing right and wondering why the -- whether 

18 in our -- more secret sites are, it's 

19 deteriorating. A lot of times you can't breathe 

20 because the air is so bad. It's like we're in 

21 LA, but we're not in LA, we're on a reservation 

22 where it should be nice and clean and away from 

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1 all this kind of stuff. But you see it every 

2 day; every day you see it, and it's horrible.

3 There's water sources that are around 

4 there that are being infected now, also by the 

5 coal and the electricity that it's making. And 

6 there's a place called Morgan Lake, which is 

7 called -- where they think a lot of the animals 

8 are being -- sort of like a Galapagos thing, 

9 where they are transforming into something else, 

10 getting third leg or something like that because 

11 the air is so bad in that area. 

12 And then a lot of the elders don't like 

13 the stuff that's going on also. We don't -- the 

14 new youth that's coming out, we don't like what's 

15 going on so we came here to talk about it. So, 

16 thank you.

17 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much, Mr. 

18 Charles. Ms. Brown.

19 MS. BROWN: Good morning, everybody, my 

20 name is Eloise Brown, B-R-O-W-N, and I'm with a 

21 group called Doda Desert Rock Organization. Doda 

22 means absolutely no, absolutely not. And there 

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1 was a third coal burning power plant that was 

2 being proposed back in 2006, and we put a stop to 

3 it in two and a half years and the proposal 

4 failed. We had to fight against our own Navajo 

5 Nation leaders, which was former President, Joe 

6 Shirly (phonetic). Chris Deschitney (phonetic) 

7 who was the attorney for EPA and so forth and so 

8 forth.

9 And including the current president, Ben 

10 Shelly, who were proposing this power plant 

11 called Desert Rock. And we went through a lot. 

12 Our own leaders put us through a lot due to us 

13 grassroots saying no to power plants, no to 

14 pollution. 

15 Just like Brad said, we have a lot of 

16 people who are on oxygen. They carry oxygen, 

17 including my mother. And she used to speak on, 

18 you know, behalf of our nation also. She used to 

19 travel with us, and my dad used to travel with 

20 us, but we lost my dad a year ago. And my mom is 

21 on oxygen to where she can't sit very long and 

22 she can't handle this long trip.

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1 And so, you know, we have elders like 

2 that back home. We have a lot of people that 

3 have oxygen, that use oxygen and so it's really 

4 sad to see on a Navajo Nation and the surrounding 

5 areas of the Arizona Public Service and San Juan 

6 generating stations, they're both coal burning 

7 power plants, where people are you know, dying 

8 from cancer. Pretty much when you hear about a 

9 funeral it's always like, you know, what 

10 happened? And they're like well, he is deceased 

11 or she is deceased because she or he had cancer. 

12 And also lung fibrosis, pneumoconiosis, and all 

13 that -- you know, all those kind of ailments that 

14 they've caught or had. Or that's the reason why 

15 they're, you know, passing away at an early age 

16 where before people, you know, used to grow into 

17 like, 110 years old or whatever. I think it's 

18 very rare now that we see elders that are like 

19 102 and 105. 

20 And so I know it has a lot to do with 

21 this pollution, and we're saying to the U.S. EPA, 

22 please, you know, we don't want that to continue 

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1 and you know, whatever you can do to help 

2 eliminate the pollution as much as possible, we 

3 would really appreciate it. And I'm speaking on 

4 behalf of the Navajo Nation grass roots and I 

5 sent e-mails to our president, Shirly -- or 

6 Shelly. President Shelly, but he didn't respond. 

7 I was hoping that he would be here with me, with 

8 us to talk about this. 

9 And so we're really standing strong on 

10 saying no to pollution. We want clean air 

11 because when, you know -- there's people that are 

12 saying that we want power plants, we want coal 

13 burning power plants because it provides jobs, it 

14 provides revenue for the Navajo Nation. But that 

15 may be so, but why would you -- how in the world 

16 would you be working when you have health 

17 ailments? When you have cancer why would you 

18 want to even, you know, get a job and try to, you 

19 know, move forward. 

20 I just went through a lot with a lot of

21 elders. I do a lot of volunteer work so I know 

22 what elders go through. So to me I'm saying that 

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1 money is not important. Yeah, of course you'll 

2 buy a lot of things with money, but jobs are not 

3 that important compared to your health. So what 

4 I'm trying to say is that if your loved one 

5 passes away from cancer or lung fibrosis or you 

6 know, any kind of lung problems, you can't go to 

7 work at a power plant and buy that person back. 

8 He'll never come back. She'll never come back 

9 because that's what happened to my dad. And I 

10 know my mom is going through a lot. And we have 

11 elders that we've brought.

12 And as long as I live, as long as I'm on 

13 this Earth I'll speak on behalf of the Navajo 

14 Nation, the elders, because I really do care 

15 about their health. I care about the future 

16 generation. I don't want to hear somewhere down 

17 the road, you know, I don't know what happens 

18 after you die, but I don't want -- if I should be 

19 able to listen to the younger generation I don't 

20 want them to ever say, what happened to my 

21 grandma. What happened to my auntie? When they 

22 were alive they should have protected Mother 

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1 Earth. They should have protected our air. You 

2 know, I don't know what happens, but that's just 

3 the thoughts that go through my little brain. 

4 And so that's the reason why I'm here. 

5 And I don't want dirty air. I want clean 

6 air for the people. Not only the people, but all 

7 living species, including Mother Earth, the 

8 trees, everything. Thank you very much.

9 MR. GREEN: Okay. Thank you, both.

10 Next we have Cindy Powers and Marie 

11 Pearthree. 

12 Ms. Powers will go first, and please 

13 restate your name and spell your last name for 

14 us, please.

15 MS. POWERS: Cindy Powers, P-O-W-E-R-S. 

16 Good morning U.S. EPA.

17 MS. MCKELLY: Could I ask you to pull the 

18 microphone a little closer so we can hear you 

19 better?

20 MS. POWERS: Can you hear me now?

21 MS. MCKELLY: Yeah. Thank you.

22 MS. POWERS: Good morning. Well, let's 

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1 see. I am new to this whole clean air. I have 

2 lived in Northern California for nearly 20 years 

3 and I've been pretty fortunate. I feel like I've 

4 been blessed. But the one thing I can say is 

5 that I've been raised, also, in Northern Arizona 

6 near Lake Powell, where there is an SRP station, 

7 and that's a coal burning facility. And I have 

8 family members who work there too, and the one 

9 thing is -- the one thing I think about often is, 

10 like anymore as I am -- because I'm a mother of 

11 three. So I think about my children and my 

12 grandchildren, and the people who are going to 

13 follow -- follow my footsteps. And the one cause 

14 I feel like is very important to understand is 

15 that we cannot live without air. And the one 

16 thing also is that clean air is vital to our 

17 society. Not just for the Navajo Nation, but for 

18 everyone globally at large.

19 And the one thing I also am thinking is 

20 that would be very helpful is to see -- and my 

21 wish list is that we could somehow have zero or 

22 low carbon source of electricity, or even just do 

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1 away with the coal burning factories and do 

2 alternative methods that are much more beneficial 

3 to us as a society and not only that, to the 

4 animals and just everything to the whole 

5 ecosystem.

6 And, why not? We are very -- this is the 

7 21st Century. Who is to say like the -- why 

8 can't we look into 22nd Century, 23rd Century and 

9 think about how we can say hey, this is the day 

10 that we took a stand, 21st Century, 19 -- or 

11 what's today? November 2014. And to say that we 

12 were a part of this and that we were a part of 

13 making changes that project like people living 

14 longer and not having to be dependent on machines 

15 that is really, it's a foreign object. And why 

16 can't we just have like -- why can't we just 

17 breath without having to resort to machines and 

18 relying on different medications and the 

19 implications that go with it is depression and 

20 all the other things that -- just even suicide. 

21 And it becomes like, I think to me, like 

22 families talk about well, so-and-so died of 

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1 cancer, this type of cancer. And my aunt died of 

2 this. And it becomes a generational curse. And 

3 we can break that curse, I believe, by stepping 

4 up and saying let's be empowered by using what is 

5 much more beneficial to our health right now. 

6 And to know that it isn't too late. 

7 And coal, for instance, and where it 

8 comes from and how it's used, it really is, it's 

9 outdated and how long have we been dependent on 

10 it? Like nearly 100 years. And look at where we 

11 are now. And we're not faring very well as a 

12 society. 

13 So I hope to have my -- I hope to see my 

14 great-grandchildren, and that's my other wish is 

15 to see them without having me be on some sort of 

16 oxygen as I get in my older years. And that I 

17 will be able to be a citizen who is still giving 

18 back in a big way. Thank you.

19 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much. Ms. 

20 Pearthree.

21 MS. PEARTHREE: Yes. Do I need to spell 

22 my name?

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1 MR. GREEN: Yes, please.

2 MS. PEARTHREE: Okay. It's P as in Paul, 

3 E-A-R-T-H-R-E-E. Okay? 

4 MR. GREEN: Go ahead.

5 MS. PEARTHREE: Okay. Thank you. Good 

6 morning. My name is Marie Pearthree and I am 

7 Deputy General Manager at the Central Arizona 

8 Water Conservation District. 

9 CAWCD appreciates the opportunity to 

10 comment and wishes to express its general 

11 concurrence with the EPA's determination in the 

12 supplemental proposal to the Clean Power Plan 

13 that Indian Country, specifically Navajo 

14 Generating Station, or NGS for short, will meet 

15 the proposed carbon standards of the Clean Power 

16 Plan through compliance with the NGS best 

17 available retrofit technology or BART provisions 

18 of the Clean Air Act and the regional Haze Rule. 

19 The NGS BART rule drew an extraordinary 

20 balance between NGS constituents and the EPA to 

21 find a mutually acceptable solution for the 

22 continued operation of NGS, and we are 

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1 appreciative of the efforts being made to 

2 continue that balance.

3 Our interest in the Clean Power Plan 

4 stems from the critical role that NGS plays in 

5 the operation of the Central Arizona Project, CAP 

6 for short, which is overseen by CAWCD. 

7 The CAP is a massive water delivery 

8 project constructed by the U.S. Bureau of 

9 Reclamation to enable Arizona to make full use of 

10 its Colorado River entitlement. And greater than 

11 90 percent of the power needed to deliver, about 

12 1.6 million acre feet of Colorado River water to 

13 municipal and industrial users, agricultural 

14 irrigation districts, and Indian communities in 

15 Central and Southern Arizona, over 90 percent of 

16 the power needed to do that comes from NGS.

17 In addition, affordable CAP water has 

18 been a crucial component in the successful 

19 negotiation of multiple Native American water 

20 right settlements in Arizona. And today 47 

21 percent of CAP water is dedicated to Indian use 

22 with nine tribes holding contacts for that water. 

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1 NGS is also of extreme importance as 

2 power from the federal share of NGS that exceeds 

3 the pumping needs of the CAP is sold as Navajo 

4 surplus, and those proceeds are used to repay the 

5 federal government for construction of the CAP 

6 system, and to help fund Native American water 

7 right settlements.

8 The EPA states, in the supplemental 

9 proposal, that it does not expect any additional 

10 emission reductions from areas of Indian Country 

11 with affected electrical generating units, 

12 including the Navajo Nations area of Indian 

13 Country due to compliance with other regulations. 

14 CAWCD strongly encourages the EPA to 

15 maintain this determination in the final rule. 

16 The possible imposition of additional 

17 requirements to control carbon emissions beyond 

18 those achieved through the NGS BART rule, and 

19 resulting costs would have a devastating impact 

20 on water use in the state, including jeopardizing 

21 existing and future Indian water right 

22 settlements, loss of agriculture in Central and 

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1 Southern Arizona, and negative impacts to 

2 municipal and industrial customers. 

3 So in conclusion CAWCD's mission to 

4 provide affordable Colorado River water supplies 

5 to 80 percent of the state's population is a 

6 multifaceted and highly collaborative effort with 

7 Indian Country and specifically NGS at its 

8 center.

9 The supplemental proposal recognizes the 

10 balance struck between NGS constituents and the 

11 EPA to develop mutually acceptable solutions for 

12 the continued operation of NGS for the useful 

13 life of a plant. 

14 The EPA's conclusion that NGS will meet 

15 the proposed carbon standards of the Clean Power 

16 Plan through compliance with the BART provisions 

17 of the Clean Air Act, and the regional Haze 

18 Rules, further evidence of the agency's 

19 commitment to achieve air quality standards and 

20 ensure the continued vitality of NGS and the CAP, 

21 both of which are critical to Arizona's economy 

22 and all it's people. And thank you very much. I 

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1 appreciate the opportunity.

2 MR. GREEN: Thank you. Next we have 

3 Lieutenant Governor Steven Lewis and Percy Deal. 

4 Lieutenant Governor Lewis will speak first.

5 MR. LEWIS: Thank you, and it's good 

6 thoughts. My name is Steven Rel Lewis, and I am 

7 the Lieutenant Governor and the Governor elect of 

8 the Hue (Phonetic) Indian community. The 

9 community is an Indian nation located south of 

10 Phoenix, Arizona, with lands encompassing 

11 approximately 372,000 acres. 

12 And again, I want to thank the EPA for 

13 the opportunity to testify on behalf of my 

14 people, the Okomahotham (phonetic) and Peposh 

15 (phonetic) peoples on the Agency's Clean Power 

16 Plan Supplemental Proposal. 

17 Today my testimony will focus on how 

18 EPA's proposed rule will affect operations at the 

19 Navajo Generating Station. NGS supplies 

20 approximately 95 percent of the power delivered 

21 through the Central Arizona Project water to the 

22 community and other CAP customers. Our federally 

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1 guaranteed CAP water, which is a trust resource, 

2 is vital for my people's agricultural production 

3 and economy and the health and spiritual 

4 wellbeing of all of my community members. 

5 The most important issue is that the EPA 

6 has a trust obligation to ensure that delivery of 

7 this CAP water continues and remains affordable 

8 under our Water Settlement Act. 

9 EPA has proposed an emissions goal for 

10 the Navajo Territory that EPA expects will be met 

11 at NGS through compliance with the EPA's best 

12 available retrofit technology final rule, and 

13 therefore will not cause tribes to incur any 

14 additional cost. If EPA's proposed goal can be 

15 satisfied through existing commitments at NGS the 

16 community supports this goal and urges the EPA to 

17 adopt it in its final rule. 

18 While the community appreciates that the 

19 proposed rule will not impose additional costs at 

20 NGS it is important for EPA to recognize that the 

21 BART rulemaking process and the implementation of 

22 the BART final rule has and will continue to have 

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1 significant cost implications for my community. 

2 The community support for the proposed 

3 rule does not mean, though, that we are 

4 completely satisfied with the EPA's actions at 

5 NGS. The BART final rule was the best possible

6 compromise to an extremely complex and unique set 

7 of challenges at NGS, and therefore is a strong 

8 and viable first step in a series of steps that 

9 will redress the community's harms stemming from 

10 EPA's actions at NGS.

11 There are two additional issues that the 

12 community urges the EPA to address in its final 

13 rule. First, the EPA should ensure that carbon 

14 off-set credits are allocated among NGS's owners 

15 in a way that avoids any increase in the cost of 

16 NGS power. 

17 The second issue involves the pending 

18 lawsuit challenging the BART final rule. We 

19 believe, strongly believe that the EPA must allow 

20 adequate flexibility in the final rule to address 

21 the possibility that the Court overturns EPA's 

22 BART rule. 

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1 Finally, the community appreciates EPA's 

2 recognition that compliance with the clean power 

3 plan rule at NGS, unlike at the other power 

4 plants in Indian Country affects not only the 

5 tribe where the plant is located, but many other 

6 tribes, such as the community that rely on the 

7 NGS for federally guaranteed water delivery. 

8 For this reason EPA must continue to 

9 consult with the tribes, like the Hue Indian 

10 community, my community, as this rulemaking 

11 proceeds. 

12 Once again, thank you for the opportunity 

13 to address EPA on this vitally important issue. 

14 The community looks forward to continued 

15 government to government consultation with the 

16 EPA on the proposed rule and other issues at NGS. 

17 (Speaking in native language.)

18 MR. GREEN: Lieutenant Governor Lewis I 

19 have just one question. I just want to be clear 

20 that your recommendation was that the carbon 

21 credits would go to the owners of the NGS and not 

22 to the community itself?

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1 MR. LEWIS: That's correct. And also, 

2 you know, we're concerned about any increase in 

3 costs as well.

4 MR. GREEN: All right. Thank you very 

5 much. Mr. Deal.

6 MR. DEAL: Greetings. Good morning. My 

7 name is Percy Deal, I'm 65 years old. I live in 

8 the Black Mesa Region on the Navajo Reservation 

9 about 15 miles south of Peabody Coal Mine. 

10 I'm here again, today, before EPA panel 

11 to express my support for the President's Climate 

12 Action Plan for the country and expressing my 

13 concern for the EPA's plan to accept an 

14 alternative to the Navajo Nation, which is a 

15 deviation from the rest of the country's for 

16 clean air. 

17 I'm also resubmitting my statement that I 

18 made in Denver in July of this year. It's 

19 attached to it. 

20 My concern are as follows. Number one, 

21 the Navajo Nation president, Ben Shelly, in his 

22 clean or rather the -- his carbon team plan have 

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1 not shared with the general Navajo public, 

2 including myself, their plan. There has been no 

3 public hearing conducted on the Navajo land. I 

4 do not even know if the Navajo Nation Council had 

5 their input into this plan.

6 My understanding, number two, is 

7 President Shelly's plan will change only by five 

8 to six percent from what it has been the past 40 

9 years. This percentage is extremely small 

10 compared to EPA's recommendation at 24. Arizona, 

11 at 52 percent, New Mexico and Colorado at 34 

12 percent. This plan certainly does not address 

13 the climate change in the Southwest United 

14 States.

15 Number four. Or, number three. Under 

16 the current percentage operation will continue at 

17 the same rate for the life of the power plants 

18 and the coal mine. This translates to continued 

19 use of water at the same rate, either from the 

20 River or the in aquifers. Furthermore, Peabody 

21 is pumping pristine water from Black Mesa. This 

22 water is not used by Navajo residents, 

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1 businesses, schools, or hospital.

2 Number four, power plants, NGS, and the 

3 Four Corners Power Plant, and the coal mine, 

4 Peabody and Navajo Mine, has been in existent on 

5 the Navajo Reservation for over 50 years. These 

6 industries are among the worst in the country. 

7 Arguments are made by the outside interests such 

8 as APS, SRP, politician, now the federal 

9 government by reducing that -- that by reducing 

10 pollutant on the Navajo Reservation will hurt the 

11 economy such as job and revenue.

12 True, these industry brought jobs. But 

13 over the years the number of jobs have declined. 

14 Number five, there has been absolutely no 

15 new job or revenue multipliers on the Navajo 

16 Reservation as a result of these industries. 

17 Yes, there are many businesses and job created 

18 off the reservation in border towns such as 

19 Farmington, Page, Flagstaff, and even here in 

20 Phoenix. 

21 A study recently done by Arizona State 

22 University could not verify any job or revenue 

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1 multiplier on the Navajo Reservation. The people 

2 not living on Navajo land in Arizona, California, 

3 and Nevada will continue to enjoy cheap power and 

4 water at the expense of Navajo people's health. 

5 This proposed plan will prolong the social and 

6 environmental injustice for the Navajo people.

7 I understand the industries are 

8 conducting environment impact statement. But 

9 these studies do not include impact on the health 

10 of the people or the impact on the water. 

11 President Shelly's plan proposes a small change 

12 towards reducing hazardous pollutant. The 

13 continued operation in the next decade will cause 

14 further harm to the health of the people and the 

15 health of the water. There has been no health 

16 impact study on the Navajo -- on Navajo land. 

17 A recent survey by the Navajo Nation 

18 conducted, states that asthma and respiratory 

19 illness on the Navajo land is almost at the same 

20 rate as the United States. With the high rate of 

21 respiratory illness on Navajo land, many are in 

22 poor health already with little resources to 

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1 address the rising health costs. Why add to it?

2 The emission from these power plant or 

3 coal plant, coal power plant, must also include 

4 other pollutant, not just carbon. Coal plant add 

5 millions of tons of pollutant to the air that we 

6 breath every day and we deserve nothing less than 

7 the same eco-protection that's being granted to 

8 every American across the Country.

9 Could I add just a couple of other 

10 comment to it?

11 MR. GREEN: Sure.

12 MR. DEAL: I wanted to also say that 

13 please do not -- please do something about our 

14 concern. The president and his carbon team did 

15 not consult with us as a population of the Navajo 

16 Reservation. Don't just take our statement and 

17 say that you have consulted with us. My mom and 

18 dad live in the area all their lives. My dad 

19 expired at a hundred years and seven months. My 

20 mom expired at 93. They talked about plenty of 

21 clean water and clean air. They both died of 

22 natural causes.

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1 I want to live in the world that they 

2 lived in; the clean air that they spoke of, the 

3 clean water that they spoke of. That's what I 

4 want. It's in your hand to do something about 

5 that and help me live that. Remember I said, I'm 

6 65 years old so there's not much time to help me 

7 live that world that they lived in. 

8 Native American has always been 

9 mistreated since the arrival of Columbus. I see 

10 your plan as adding to the history. Please don't 

11 add to the history. Give it --

12 MR. GREEN: I do need you to wrap it up, 

13 Mr. Deal. Thank you. Go ahead and finish.

14 MR. DEAL: Thank you.

15 MR. GREEN: All right. Thank you very 

16 much. If you would, would you be sure and leave 

17 a statement up at the registration desk so we can 

18 get a copy of your statement on the docket too? 

19 MR. DEAL: Thank you.

20 MR. GREEN: Thank you. Next we have Andy 

21 Bessler and Stephen Brittle. Mr. Bessler will go 

22 first. 

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1 MR. BESSLER: Thank you. My name is Andy 

2 Bessler. I'm the project director for the 

3 National Travel Air Association. NTA is an 

4 autonomous organization with 85 principle member 

5 tribes. The organization's mission is to advance 

6 air quality management policies and programs 

7 consistent with the needs, interest, and unique 

8 legal status of Indian tribes. 

9 As such the NTA uses its resources to 

10 support the efforts of all federally recognized 

11 tribes and protecting and improving the air 

12 quality within their respective jurisdictions.

13 Although the Organization always seeks to 

14 represent consensus perspectives on any given 

15 issue, it is important to note that the views 

16 expressed by the NTA may not be agreed upon by 

17 all tribes. Further, it is also important that 

18 EPA understands interactions with NTA do not 

19 substitute for government to government 

20 consultations which can only be achieved through 

21 direct communication between the federal 

22 government and Indian tribes. 

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1 The NTA approves of the framework of the 

2 Clean Power Plan and in general supports EPA's 

3 efforts to develop and enforce regulations which 

4 reduce greenhouse gas emissions. These standards 

5 will help reduce carbon dioxide emissions from 

6 existing electrical generation units that have 

7 gone uncontrolled for a very long time, as well 

8 as co-pollutants, including air toxics like 

9 mercury which pose serious health concerns to 

10 great environment quality and threaten bio11 diversity in the national environment. 

12 The NTA has provided comments and 

13 recommendations to the EPA on the Clean Power 

14 Plan's four building blocks, multi-state plans, 

15 cap and trade programs, environmental justice, 

16 and tribal consultations. These comments 

17 submitted on October 15th of 2014 are included by 

18 reference for the supplemental plan being 

19 discussed here today, and more detailed comments 

20 on the Clean Power Plan's supplemental rule for 

21 Indian Country will be provided by NTA in the 

22 coming weeks.

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1 Although this supplemental rule relates 

2 to only four power plants, greenhouse gas 

3 emissions from these four power plants 

4 cumulatively contribute to the greenhouse gas 

5 emissions warming our planet and changing our 

6 climate. To help understand and adapt to this 

7 growing problem NTA produced the 2014 Status of 

8 Tribal Air Report, that in part recorded specific 

9 impacts that a changing climate brings to Indian 

10 tribes and traditional life ways.

11 Indian tribes are affected much 

12 differently than the rest of the nation because 

13 their cultures are integrated into the ecosystems 

14 of North America. And many tribal subsistence 

15 diets and economies are heavily dependent on the 

16 use of fish, wildlife, and native plants which 

17 are directly threatened by climate change. 

18 Even more, tribal economies are 

19 integrated into the national economy. Tribal 

20 cultural identities continue to be deeply rooted 

21 in the natural environment. As climate change 

22 disrupts biological communities, the survival of 

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1 some tribes' distinct cultures may be at risk. 

2 The loss of traditional cultural practices due to 

3 climate driven die-off or rain shifts of 

4 culturally significant plant and animal species 

5 may prove to be too much for some tribal cultures 

6 to withstand on top of other external pressures 

7 they face.

8 Climate driven destruction of biological 

9 communities is also having considerable affect on 

10 the treaty rights of Indian tribes. Many such 

11 treaties preserve hunting, fishing, and gathering 

12 rights for tribes on the lands in their usual and 

13 accustom areas. Some tribes are finding that 

14 animals and plants on which they depend for their 

15 cultural practices and identity have either 

16 migrated to lands not under their control or have 

17 disappeared all together. 

18 How does one begin to value this type of 

19 loss for a tribe? Here in the southwest 

20 increased aridity threatens vegetation that is 

21 critical for stabilizing sediments. The loss of 

22 the stabilizing vegetation can lead to more 

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1 severe and frequent dust storms and dune 

2 mobilization. Higher temperatures and increased 

3 droughts will lead to more intense forest fires 

4 and reduce grazing potential.

5 NTA encourages EPA to consult with tribes 

6 to fully understand the impacts of climate change 

7 in Indian Country, and to find the best solutions 

8 to achieve affective carbon dioxide emission 

9 reduction. 

10 NTA further encourages the use of multi11 state and multi-jurisdictional plans in which 

12 states and tribes work together to create plans 

13 to both reduce Co2 and co-pollutant emissions, 

14 and increase the deployment of clean renewable 

15 energy.

16 Indian tribes can be treated as states 

17 under Section 301(d) of the Clean Air Act. As 

18 such EPA is obliged to involve them in meetings 

19 with states concerning multi-state and multi20 jurisdictional planning efforts. 

21 The Clean Power Plan indicates that for 

22 many states the renewable portfolio standards 

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1 allow energy generated by qualifying renewable 

2 energy sources in other states to count toward 

3 meeting such renewable portfolio standards. NTA 

4 finds that this same opportunity should apply to 

5 Indian tribes that could sell renewable energy 

6 generated on their lands to help neighboring 

7 states meet their carbon dioxide emission 

8 reduction requirements. 

9 This mutually beneficial solution would 

10 offer tribes the opportunity to reinvest revenues 

11 for sustainable energy development into their own 

12 economies. NTA recommends that EPA engage tribes 

13 in a discussion about this opportunity and how it 

14 might fit within this supplemental rule.

15 Thank you for the opportunity to provide 

16 comments on behalf of the National Tribal Air 

17 Association. 

18 MR. GREEN: Thank you, MR. Bessler. Mr. 

19 Brittle, please state your name and spell your 

20 last name for us, please.

21 MR. BRITTLE: My name is Stephen Brittle, 

22 B-R-I-T-T-L-E, like peanut brittle. I'm the 

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1 President of Don't Waste Arizona, a nonprofit 

2 501(c)(3) organization based in Phoenix. 

3 Don't Waste Arizona has had member 

4 organizations as part of its family of grassroots 

5 organizations that are concerned about the 

6 environment and environmental justice. We were 

7 fiscal sponsor for a group called the Dine Lands, 

8 which was concerned about the coal mining and the 

9 forced relocation of traditional Dine to make way 

10 for the Peabody Coal Mine, and helped get the 

11 first superfund investigation on the Navajo 

12 Nation due to the coal mining effects. 

13 Don't Waste Arizona is also a fiscal 

14 sponsor for the Hopi traditionalists in Hota 

15 Villa. Native American lands are routinely 

16 targeted for polluting industries and 

17 exploitation. I noted, when I first went to 

18 visit our member organizations, I wondered why 

19 the sky was getting dark, and it was because of 

20 all the air pollution. When I return there I 

21 still see the same problem. It's appalling.

22 And I know because of what I know that we 

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1 have hydrogen fluoride. We have persistent 

2 biological toxins. We have hydrogen fluoride and 

3 mercury. These are things that no one should 

4 have to live with.

5 In Arizona we have seen a propaganda 

6 campaign against the EPA, demonizing it and our 

7 president for finally implementing the 1990 Clean 

8 Air Act amendments, where we're doing what we're 

9 doing today. This is certainly long overdue. 

10 This was passed under George H. W. Bush.

11 But there's always been some excuse for 

12 not implementing this law, good economy or bad 

13 economy, there's always some excuse. The profits 

14 of energy corporations and entities that are 

15 entirely non-native, are really are what is at 

16 stake here, hence the latest propaganda and hate 

17 speech. 

18 This is an environmental justice issue, 

19 where a disproportionate amount of pollution and 

20 risk are foisted upon the local people of color 

21 who do not get any economic benefit, even though 

22 they're directly affected. No matter what the 

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1 ethnic composition of an EGA issue, there are 

2 those who would profit at the expense of a few, 

3 and these interests have their own minions to run 

4 interference for them no matter what the 

5 organization or ethnicity.

6 There's certainly a disconnect between 

7 the Navajo Nation leadership and the people who 

8 are directly affected. We also recognize the 

9 economic realities of the Navajo Nation, which 

10 depends on coal mining royalties for its budget. 

11 But we pointed out to them 20 years ago, and 

12 they've been successful now in making the BIA go 

13 after -- get class action lawsuit to get more of 

14 the royalty money that they should have gotten 

15 all along through Peabody Coal. They've recently 

16 reached settlement with that, finally. 

17 But the whole thing has been stacked 

18 against the Navajos. And we would like to see 

19 them break through the pendency on just coal 

20 royalties. 

21 The opportunity we have here is an 

22 enormous economic expansion opportunity. There 

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1 can be diversification energy generation on the 

2 Navajo Nation. There's already an energy 

3 transmission corridor and infrastructure, plenty 

4 of open land and potential, particularly for 

5 solar, and to some extent for wind on the Navajo 

6 Nation. This is an enormous economic opportunity 

7 for sustainable jobs in an industry that would 

8 help with the economy and the chronic 

9 unemployment on the Navajo Nation, as well as the 

10 environmental benefits of less air pollution and 

11 coal ash ways. 

12 Solar energy employs more people per 

13 kilowatt-hour generated than coal fired energy. 

14 This also opens the door for other tribes and 

15 states to site solar energy facilities on the 

16 Navajo Nation to help their carbon balances and 

17 impacts. And this would be widespread across all 

18 Native American lands. Long overdue and welcome 

19 now.

20 We are citizens of a planet that is 

21 threatened by global warming and ocean 

22 acidification from coal being burned. We must 

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1 now do our part. And again, this is a great 

2 economic opportunity. It would be racist and 

3 discrimination to not require the same rules as 

4 to have been promulgated for non-native lands, to 

5 not be required on Native American lands.

6 And in a final note, I've been watching 

7 and involved in this whole discussion about the 

8 CAP. And it is operating under the illusion and 

9 the fiction that there will even be water for the 

10 CAP by the year 2044, when the $500 million a 

11 year payment finally expires. Long before 2044. 

12 There will not be water running in the CAP 

13 because the Colorado River is diminishing.

14 By the end of this decade we won't even 

15 see power being generated at Hoover Dam. So all 

16 of this is a big ploy that's going to fail 

17 because of the coal fired electricity that's 

18 causing a global warming disaster and crisis. 

19 Thank you.

20 MR. GREEN: Thank you, Mr. Brittle. Next 

21 up we have Colleen Cooley and Hanson Ashley. 

22 Colleen Cooley will go first. I'll both have you 

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1 please repeat your names and spell your last 

2 name. Thank you.

3 MR. ASHLEY: My name is Hanson Ashley. 

4 Last name, A-S-H-L-E-Y.

5 MS. COOLEY: Did you say I'm first? 

6 Okay.

7 MR. GREEN: Yes.

8 MS. COOLEY: My name is Colleen Cooley. 

9 Last name is C-O-O-L-E-Y. My name is Colleen 

10 Cooley and I am from the community of Shonto, 

11 Arizona. For 15 years of my life I have lived 

12 within 70 miles of two of the worst power plants 

13 in the country, the Navajo Generating Station and 

14 the Four Corners Power Plant. 

15 Both of these power plants are located on 

16 the Navajo Nation. The distance may not seem 

17 relevant but it was enough to spark my interest 

18 in high school and in college to research and 

19 understand the complexities of how these power 

20 plants have affected the land, the air, the 

21 water, and the health of our people for the past 

22 50 years. 

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1 I know these power plants have provided 

2 jobs and revenue for the Navajo Nation, but I 

3 also know these power plants are old and they do 

4 not directly provide electricity for the people 

5 residing on the Navajo Nation. The power is 

6 owned by non-Navajo utility companies and is 

7 delivered to Southern Arizona and Southern New 

8 Mexico. And from there our Navajo tribal utility 

9 authority purchases the power back from these 

10 companies, and in order to provide electricity to 

11 its Navajo customers residing on the Navajo 

12 Nation.

13 In addition the Navajo Nation has zero 

14 percent ownership of these plants. Billions of 

15 gallons of water has been pumped from Lake Powell 

16 and the San Juan River to cool the units down, 

17 and the emissions from these power plants have 

18 affected the environment and the people, both on 

19 and off the reservation. Emissions from these 

20 power plants do not stay on the Navajo Nation. 

21 They travel to nearby towns, national parks, and 

22 waterways. 

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1 So it doesn't make sense that the power 

2 plants on Indian Country were exempt from this 

3 strong Clean Power Plan proposed by the rest of 

4 the country, and now a weak supplemental proposal 

5 has been issued by EPA. I do want to thank EPA 

6 for proposing the Clean Power Plan and its 

7 supplemental proposal to help curb the number one 

8 source of carbon pollution on a national level 

9 and within Indian Country.

10 However, the supplemental proposal only 

11 reduces emissions by at least four percent for 

12 both power plants by 2030, which does not provide 

13 equal protections as proposed for the rest of 

14 Arizona and New Mexico. How will our communities 

15 and future generations benefit from just a four

16 percent reduction? Why should our communities 

17 continue to suffer from the climate disruption 

18 that we have already faced for many years? We 

19 deserve the same treatment as the rest of the 

20 country.

21 Yes, I know that NGS and the Four Corners 

22 Power Plant have shut down at least one of their 

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1 units to reduce their emissions, but that should 

2 not excuse them from reducing even more emissions 

3 for the next 15 years. Not only should both 

4 power plants continue to reduce their carbon 

5 emissions, they should transition at least 30 

6 percent of their plants to cleaner energy by 

7 2030. 

8 The Navajo Nation has the potential and 

9 resources to start this transition now in order 

10 to provide a place to live for future 

11 generations. I am a young Dine woman and I 

12 obtained a master's degree, but one does not need 

13 to have a college degree to understand that the 

14 climate is rapidly changing. The whole world 

15 knows it and there are many taking action now to 

16 put a stop to the fossil fuel industry that has 

17 profited billions of dollars off our resources. 

18 I am one of many here today to speak up 

19 for the protection of Mother Earth and for those 

20 who may not have the courage to speak up, and for 

21 those who are not able to attend this hearing. 

22 Many are worried that climate change will 

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1 cause more damage to the environment, so it is 

2 very important that we transition to clean energy 

3 sources such as wind and solar. No more excuses, 

4 no more delays, no more emissions. The Danau 

5 people and other tribes deserve an equally strong 

6 plan as the rest of the country, to protect our 

7 life ways, the health of our people, and the 

8 health of the land, water, and air. 

9 We are not fortunate enough to just 

10 relocate from our communities if they get 

11 destroyed by catastrophic events such as 

12 wildfires and flash floods. We have suffered the 

13 burden of climate injustices for far too long and 

14 it needs to stop now. 

15 I strongly urge the EPA and Navajo Nation 

16 to consider my testimony and make the necessary 

17 changes to the supplemental proposal to be 

18 inclusive and fair to all living things. We are 

19 all equal and we all deserve clean air and clean 

20 water. Thank you.

21 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much. Mr. 

22 Ashley.

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1 MR. ASHLEY: All right. Hello. Hello. 

2 (Speaking in native language.) I am from 

3 Southeast Utah, which is overrun a lot by 

4 fracking, which I guess provides a lot of jobs 

5 but it also causes a lot of carbon monoxide to 

6 leak into the air, which often at least, more 

7 than once a week I go outside and I smell the 

8 carbon monoxide. 

9 And, I don't know, I notice the proposals 

10 for comments on issues related to those 

11 territories and I thought it would be good to 

12 come here and voice some opinion on that. 

13 With that said, although the jobs provide 

14 many an opportunity, it also leaves to question 

15 what happens to our moral character as Native

16 American people and our value systems, and how 

17 much they're changing so much into very 

18 materialistic conventions. 

19 So I really applaud that these proposals 

20 are coming through, but I'm afraid that they 

21 might be going a little too slowly. And in order 

22 to make some differences it would be really great 

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1 if we could get more -- get this information more 

2 publicly pushed to our people instead of hiding 

3 behind all this jargon and technical jargon that 

4 really confuses people, our people, who are also 

5 trying to have, you know -- use their second 

6 language and also maybe aren't aware of these 

7 terms and stuff. So, thank you very much.

8 MR. GREEN: Thank you, Mr. Ashley. Thank 

9 you, both.

10 Our next speakers will be, and I hope I 

11 pronounce this correctly, Jacey Brown and Thurman 

12 Thomas.

13 Please repeat your name and spell your 

14 last name for the court reporter. Thank you. 

15 Mr. Brown will go first.

16 MR. BROWN: Jacey Brown, B-R-O-W-N. 

17 MS. MCKELLY: Can you move the microphone 

18 down a little bit? Thank you.

19 MR. BROWN: Jacey.

20 MS. MCKELLY: Got you. 

21 MR. BROWN: B-R-O-W-N.

22 MS. MCKELLY: Thank you. 

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1 MR. GREEN: Great. Go ahead, Mr. Brown.

2 MR. BROWN: Good morning, this is -- kind 

3 of afraid to speak. 

4 MS. MCKELLY: You're doing well.

5 MR. GREEN: That's all right. We are too 

6 when we speak, so don't worry about it.

7 MR. BROWN: One day me and my dad, we 

8 went on a trip to Morgan Lake and people kept 

9 telling us that fish had like three eyes, two 

10 heads, and I don't like it. And the power plants 

11 are causing that and I just want clean air, not 

12 pollution. And I please need your help and thank 

13 you.

14 MS. MCKELLY: Thank you. Thank you.

15 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much. Good 

16 job.

17 MR. BROWN: You're welcome.

18 MR. GREEN: Mr. Thomas.

19 MR. THOMAS: Hi. My name is Thurman 

20 Thomas, T-H-O-M-A-S. Hello, everybody.

21 MR. GREEN: Go ahead.

22 MR. THOMAS: All right. I'm sorry. I'm 

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1 very emotional. 

2 (Crying.)

3 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry. It takes a lot 

4 to put me down. It's just that I have a newborn 

5 daughter and I care so much about her and we live 

6 close to the power plant around where we live. 

7 And I just worry so much about her. I just want 

8 clean air for her. She's everything for me. I 

9 just think about her. I don't want her growing 

10 up to the air is dirty like this. It just hurts 

11 me so much. It's just all I worry about is her. 

12 So, that's all I want is clean air so she 

13 can grow up healthy and happy. I don't want to 

14 deal with all this. Thank you.

15 MS. MCKELLY: Thank you.

16 MR. GREEN: Thank you. And your daughter 

17 is lucky to have you as a father.

18 All right. Why don't we take a 10-minute 

19 break now, give everybody an opportunity to 

20 stretch their legs. And we'll start again at 

21 10:50. Thank you very much.

22 (Recess from 10:39 a.m. until 10:51 a.m.)

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1 MR. GREEN: All right. We are going to 

2 go ahead and reconvene. We have Marshal Johnson 

3 and Raina Silver up here with us. Mr. Johnson 

4 will speak first. I'd like to ask both of you 

5 before you speak to repeat your name and spell 

6 your last name for the court reporter, please. 

7 MR. JOHNSON: My name is Marshal Johnson, 

8 last name J-O-H-N-S-O-N. 

9 (Speaking in native language.) 

10 MR. GREEN: Mr. Johnson, I assume you're 

11 going to translate what you're saying for us, or 

12 would you like for us to get the translator up 

13 here?

14 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. I just identified 

15 myself of the clans I -- and my mother's clan, my 

16 father's clan, and then my maternal father's 

17 clan, my maternal father's clan. So that was my 

18 identity and I just wanted -- I thanked EPA for 

19 allowing us to present to you today, so I hope 

20 that you take this to your peace of mind and 

21 heart, what we have to share. That's what I 

22 said.

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1 My name is Marshal Johnson. I am a 

2 member of Arizona grassroots organization based 

3 on Black Mesa, Northeast Arizona and the Navajo 

4 Dine Reservation. I believe EPA should be able 

5 to protect public health and safety.

6 The emissions from the coal fire power 

7 plant are harming human health, Navajo Generating 

8 Station and Four Corners. This is something the 

9 Navajo Nation knows far too well. Emissions from 

10 Navajo Generating Station and five other coal11 fired power plants in the region is harming 

12 tribal health. 

13 A host of respiratory illness plagued 

14 those living on Black Mesa with bronchitis and 

15 black lung disease and asthma. But it is not 

16 just a coal fire -- it is not coal pollution air 

17 we breathe that is making us sick. Many people 

18 know that Peabody Coal mines coal on Black Mesa. 

19 But Peabody Coal is mining water to supply it's 

20 power plant and mining activities. The Navajo 

21 Sandstone aquifer, which underlies Black Mesa is 

22 the sole source of drinking water for Black Mesa, 

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1 and the Western Navajo Nation. Not only is our 

2 water depleted and desecrated, our water, our 

3 air, and the land is contaminated with all phases 

4 of coal use from mining to so-called disposable 

5 coal ash. 

6 All this is to supply the so-called low7 cost energy for the low-cost energy and water for 

8 the State of Arizona. 

9 For this rule to be effective EPA should 

10 look at all stages and impacts of coal and fossil 

11 fuel and gas, natural nuclear power plant. For 

12 this all rolls into what comes from the smoke 

13 stack and blows into the water and winds up in 

14 the bodies of humans and of all divine creation. 

15 What is taking place today was identified 

16 by EPA and Department of Interior, 1970. Before 

17 Navajo Generating Station was built there was a 

18 big power plant in the planning. Due to the 

19 emissions that could affect the Four Corners that 

20 was -- that didn't go through. But this is 

21 knowledge that you already know, EPA, that there 

22 is going to be emissions problems, issues, today. 

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1 So, we are having -- we are downwind from 

2 Navajo Generating Station and Four Corners Power 

3 Plant. And the only feedback we get from the 

4 Department of Interior as our trust responsible 

5 party is that they hold trust responsibility for 

6 10 tribes in Southern Arizona, which is supplied 

7 with Central Arizona Project water. 

8 The only way Center Arizona Project water 

9 can be in their faucet is with our Navajo 

10 Sandstone Aquifer supplying for mining activities 

11 on Black Mesa, which has depleted our aquifers 

12 and our springs for our livelihood anymore. And 

13 the energy that is produced at Navajo Generating 

14 Station, only you identified, EPA, 320 megawatts 

15 is needed to push the water from Lake Havasu to 

16 Tucson. 

17 So if you look at that there's 2,250 

18 megawatts being produced. The rest of it is all 

19 for profit. This is just a profit issue. This 

20 is not a health issue. So you need to change the 

21 stance and look from our perspective. Our 

22 livelihood has been impacted. Our way of life, 

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1 our way of worship, has been impacted. We should 

2 be providing hers to these springs which don't 

3 produce anymore. You have violated our way of 

4 worship, freedom of religion. Thank you.

5 MS. MCKELLY: Thank you.

6 MR. GREEN: Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Ms. 

7 Silver. 

8 MS. SILVER: Hello. Good morning. My 

9 name is Raina Silver. That's S-I-L-V-E-R. And 

10 this morning I will be speaking on behalf of 

11 Nichole Horse herder, a co-founder of (speaking 

12 in native language) which is an indigenous 

13 environmental group working to protect the Navajo 

14 environmental heritage. And that directly 

15 translates to beautiful spring speaks, and the 

16 voice -- Navajo Voice for Clean Air.

17 President Obama and his Environmental 

18 Protection Agency are pushing to clean up the 

19 oldest and dirtiest power plants all across our 

20 nation. Unfortunately for Dine Navajo people 

21 this will be a long road. Navajo Generating 

22 Station, the nation's only coal power plant where 

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1 the United States Government is an operator, 

2 would have been a good place to start. Instead 

3 the people of the Navajo nation will be left 

4 breathing poisons for another three decades.

5 Located on the northwestern side of the 

6 Navajo Nation's 27,000 square miles, near the 

7 city of Page, Arizona, NGS is the largest coal 

8 fire power plant on the Colorado Plateau, and one 

9 of the 10 biggest polluters in this country.

10 Now, after years of delay, rather than 

11 holding the federal owners to the requirements of 

12 the Clean Air Act, EPA administrators, Dena 

13 McCarthy caved. In a July 28th editorial this 

14 newspapers allotted McCarthy's decision for 

15 striking a balance between cleaner air and 

16 economic good sense. But compromising the health 

17 and cultural integrity of people whose homelands 

18 surrounds the power plants for the sake of coal 

19 jobs and cheap power to pump the Colorado River -

20 - Colorado River, water is not just a balance. 

21 My people still eat the sheep and cattle 

22 they raise, as well as the corn and squash they 

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1 grow. Our animals and crops are directly 

2 impacted by the pollution emitted from this 40 

3 year-old generating station. My people are not 

4 only breathing in the pollution but are also 

5 ingesting the toxins that fall upon the 

6 vegetation, crops, and animals. 

7 EPA was supposed to clean up NGS's 

8 emissions within five years. Administrator 

9 McCarthy should have acquired the federal 

10 operator, the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, to cut 

11 smog forming nitrogen oxide currently spewing 

12 from the stacks by 85 percent by 2020. 

13 Those improvements would have ended 

14 generations of disappropriate health impacts to 

15 my people from the plant's pollution, and clear 

16 up hazy vistas in the Grand Canyon National Park.

17 Ending the United States' Government's 

18 interest in this dirty coal plant would have also 

19 spurred needed investment in renewable energy on 

20 tribal lands and keep water flowing to every 

21 thirsty metropolitan areas, benefiting the 

22 Arizonians and my community.

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1 Instead, NGS is located on an Indian 

2 reservation. EPA watered down the Clean Air Act 

3 requirements and adopted a plan to let the power 

4 plants to keep polluting until 2044, continuing a 

5 legacy of asthma, bronchitis, and choking haze. 

6 Fifty years ago the Department of 

7 Interior, promising jobs and as steady flow of 

8 income, persuaded the Navajo Nation and the Hopi 

9 to waive substantial water rights and allow NGS 

10 construction. Some of those jobs remain, but 

11 most of the revenue has flowed out along with the 

12 electricity. While soot, smog, mercury, and 

13 toxic coal combustion waste remain. 

14 The White House and the EPA should have 

15 started their dirty power plants' clean up, and 

16 the dirty fuel energy system they directly 

17 control. Instead they decided to make families 

18 living in the shadows of these smoke stacks wait 

19 for the longest for clean air and a healthful 

20 environment. Thank you.

21 MR. GREEN: All right. Thank you, both. 

22 We're going to check for the next speakers. All 

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1 right. Thank you. I hope I pronounce this 

2 right. Wahleah Johns and Nadine Padilla. And 

3 just as a reminder, if there's anybody else that 

4 wants to speak that hasn't registered, if you go 

5 out to the registration desk, they'll sign you up 

6 to speak. 

7 All right. Ms. Johns will go first. 

8 Please repeat your name and spell your last name 

9 for the court reporter, please.

10 MS. JOHNS: Wahleah Johns, W-A-H-L-E-A-H, 

11 and last name is Johns, J-O-H-N-S. 

12 Greetings. Thank you for coming to 

13 Arizona. I wanted to bring this map for 

14 everybody from our home in Navajo area, and the 

15 blue is where the Navajo Nation is if you're not 

16 familiar. I take it you're not from here in the 

17 Southwest, are you?

18 MR. GREEN: No.

19 MS. JOHNS: No. Okay. So this shows how 

20 big our reservation is and it goes into Utah, New 

21 Mexico, and Arizona. And we have about five coal 

22 plants, five to seven that are in the region. 

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1 And these are big coal plants. The Navajo 

2 Generating Station, San Juan Power Plant, and the 

3 Four Corners Power Plant, Escalante, Cholla and 

4 Coronado. 

5 And the reason why we wanted to show this 

6 is just, we understand how the electricity is 

7 being generated using the coal from -- I'm from 

8 Black Mesa Region, a place called Tonajona 

9 (phonetic) which is right here in this area. And 

10 that's just north of Hopi Tribe, and we've been 

11 seeing the impacts for over 40 years of coal 

12 mining and health impacts. And yes, it's 

13 provided jobs, and it's provided living for our 

14 people and our nation and economy, but also the 

15 assessment of the health impacts is lacking. The 

16 assessment for evaluating the fossil fuel driven 

17 economy that the U.S. policies, and the energy 

18 policies have created, the federal agencies that 

19 have created the dependency for Indian tribes 

20 like ours, to extract our natural resources for 

21 50 years to be able to generate a really 

22 unsustainable and healthy colonies. So there's 

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1 energy colonies on our homelands, on our 

2 reservation, and there's energy -- and it's 

3 supported other colonies throughout Indian 

4 Country, throughout North America, throughout the 

5 world. 

6 And I say this because there is a deep 

7 connection to how colonies were formed here in 

8 the United States, and we have to look back at 

9 that. This, you know, trauma that has occurred 

10 against the indigenous peoples, indigenous 

11 people's rights. Rights of Mother Earth is not 

12 being discussed around these policies as they're 

13 being developed. 

14 I sat on the committee for the EPA to 

15 give recommendations to the EPA on the 

16 environmental justice and the impacts of 

17 indigenous peoples. In there, if you read it, I 

18 don't know if you're familiar with it, but it 

19 describes even forums like this to be culturally 

20 sensitive to communities like ours. We have 

21 elders here that speak Navajo. We want Navajo 

22 translators. You know, those service provided. 

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1 We want you to come to our community so we can 

2 have more people participate. 

3 These are the, you know, simple asks and 

4 requests that we put in that policy and I really 

5 want to recommend that to you in your future 

6 plans for developing a clean power plan because 

7 not only does this affect our communities up here 

8 in this region, but throughout Indian Country. 

9 And on the consultation there was a consultation 

10 with three tribes in the region. Navajo Nation 

11 was one of them. I ask you to also consult 

12 Navajo tribal members, and local leaders. We 

13 have 110 communities.

14 And so when you meet with one or two 

15 people from the Navajo Administration, you're not 

16 meeting with the people. And so we have people 

17 that come long ways just to give their input 

18 because the perspective is quite different. It's 

19 about health, it's about the wellbeing and our 

20 connection to Mother Earth. And it's about jobs, 

21 it's about trying to transition off fossil fuels. 

22 And the four building blocks that you have, 

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1 they're in a good direction. 

2 But for our tribe, you know, to hold our 

3 tribe accountable to make a decision on, you 

4 know, transitioning to, whether it's natural gas 

5 or renewable energy, we want to have input on 

6 that because we know its going to occur on our 

7 lands and that transition needs to be from the 

8 ground up.

9 And the other comment I wanted to make 

10 was I wanted to make, that natural gas isn't the 

11 best way to go as far as transition; that there 

12 really needs to be 100 percent renewable energy 

13 and solar/wind efforts, that you are just 

14 creating another little colony somewhere else, 

15 and dependency on somebody's water, somebody's 

16 you know, quality of air, and somebody's families 

17 that have to breath these toxins.

18 And there's 20 million tons of Co2 that 

19 comes out of Navajo Generating Station. They get 

20 their coal from the Black Mesa Mine here. And 

21 this provides energy to all of Arizona, like I 

22 said, and that moves water up hill for Phoenix 

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1 and Tucson. 

2 And like many people have said, at the 

3 burden of our families and the way of life that 

4 we want to sustain as indigenous peoples. And we 

5 have every right to talk about that. And you all 

6 have the responsibility to listen to these 

7 comments that we're making, and to respond and 

8 work with us as tribal communities for 

9 environmental justice because it's within your 

10 own policy that you created as well, to make a 

11 priority of environmental justice and stop 

12 environmental racism, and protect the rights of 

13 indigenous peoples. Not only here, but 

14 throughout the world.

15 So I just wanted to say thank you again 

16 for -- I'll be submitting some more comments, but 

17 for now we just want stronger policies. We want 

18 to make sure that the owners of these power 

19 plants are not Navajo. These owners are APS, 

20 SRP, you know, Tucson Electric, they are Nevada 

21 Power, LA Department of Water and Power, you 

22 know, Bureau of Reclamation, and they need to 

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1 work with our tribal communities about that 

2 transition. They're the ones that need to be 

3 making the polluters pay.

4 MR. GREEN: You need to wrap it up, 

5 please.

6 MS. JOHNS: Okay. Thank you.

7 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much. 

8 MS. PADILLA: Oh, no. It's okay. 

9 MR. GREEN: Are you Nadine Padilla? 

10 MS. PADILLA: Thank you Wahleah, and 

11 thank you. My name is Nadine Padilla. Padilla, 

12 P-A-D-I-L-L-A. 

13 And I am a member of the Navajo Nation. 

14 The EPA's Clean Power Plan for tribal nations is 

15 inadequate. Indian Country deserves no less than 

16 the same strong protections against carbon 

17 pollution in our communities as all other U.S. 

18 Communities. 

19 We are disproportionately impacted by 

20 dirty and dangerous energy projects. It is our 

21 air, land, water, and health that are most 

22 devastatingly impacted. Not only are our 

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1 communities under attack from coal fire power 

2 plants, but also proposed are uranium mine 

3 projects and fracking.

4 I ask you to take into account the

5 cumulative impacts from all of these sources as 

6 you make a decision. Our communities are done 

7 being a dumping ground for toxic waste and air 

8 pollution. We are done being a sacrifice zone so 

9 that the rest of the country can benefit. 

10 I ask you to listen to those of us who 

11 are most directly impacted and to use standards 

12 on Indian lands that are equal to the rest of the 

13 country. Our air, land, water, health, 

14 livelihood and spiritual health are all at stake 

15 if the EPA does not provide strong safeguards for

16 our tribal communities.

17 These dirty power plants need to be a 

18 thing of the past and we need to move forward to 

19 clean and renewable energy plants that honors our 

20 livelihood. Our communities deserve nothing 

21 less. Thank you.

22 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much. All 

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1 right. Next we have Graham Beyale. I hope I 

2 pronounced that right. And Kris Barney. And 

3 just as a reminder to everyone, we do have a 

4 translator, so if there is anyone that needs 

5 translation for their testimony we're happy to 

6 provide that as well. 

7 So Graham Beyale and Kris Barney. Just 

8 one second and we'll see if the other person 

9 shows up. Okay. Sir, what's your name?

10 MR. BEYALE: Graham.

11 MR. GREEN: Graham?

12 MR. BEYALE: Yeah.

13 MR. GREEN: Okay. So we still need Kris 

14 Barney. 

15 MS. MCKELLY: They're calling him. 

16 MR. GREEN: All right. All right. 

17 Graham you will go first. And just as a 

18 reminder, if the two of you could repeat your 

19 name and spell your last name for the court 

20 reporter that would be great.

21 MR. BEYALE: All right. Graham Beyale,

22 B-E-Y-A-L-E. (Speaking in native language.) 

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1 Hello, my name is Graham Beyal. I am of 

2 the many Hobans (phonetic) Clan, born from the 

3 Red Bottom People. My maternal grandfather is of 

4 the Red Running into Water people and my maternal 

5 grandfather is of the Water's Edge people from 

6 Shiprock, New Mexico, which is about 20 miles 

7 from the two power plants, Navajo Generating 

8 Station and Four Corners Power Plant, and I've 

9 lived in Shiprock my entire life. I was born in 

10 Shiprock, went to school in Shiprock, and anyway. 

11 Alright.

12 So I would agree with many of the 

13 speakers that have come before you in saying that 

14 the regulations for the -- the proposed 

15 regulations for the emissions reduction that EPA 

16 has proposed for the Navajo Nation are far, far, 

17 far too low at six percent, where as New Mexico 

18 is 34 percent and Arizona at 52 percent. 

19 And what I have to say is kind of short 

20 but let's see, it's frustrating. It's 

21 frustrating to know that I'm a sacrifice. That I 

22 am considered a sacrifice because of where I 

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1 live. Okay. We're the ones that have to deal 

2 with the emissions that create the energy to 

3 supply some of the major cities in the Four 

4 Corner states, including Phoenix. The energy to 

5 supply these lights, these speakers, this 

6 controlled climate most likely came from those 

7 power plants, and I'm the one that has to deal 

8 with the suffering of those emissions directly. 

9 It's not statistics or whatever. I have to deal 

10 with it. I have to drink that water. I have to 

11 breathe that air. 

12 I deal with bronchitis on a pretty 

13 regular basis. I also have asthma and so that's 

14 something that I have to, just saying I guess, 

15 deal with.

16 Anyway, I've grown up with a mindset that 

17 this is how it -- this is just how it is. 

18 There's kind of not much that I can do about it. 

19 This is my land, my home, and that will continue 

20 to be hurt and continue to die as I go on through 

21 life. I may not know the statistics on how much 

22 we have lost, but I can see it. 

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1 It no longer snows much in Shiprock and 

2 it rarely rains and with the rain there's always 

3 that threat of acid rain, and I grew up on a farm 

4 and I'm a farmer myself, and so that's a huge 

5 issue with the produce and what we grow. 

6 I'm being told, and also I'm being told 

7 year after year that it's also best to stay away 

8 from the San Juan River because of all the 

9 pollution and mercury and whatnot that is put 

10 into the river that -- because we're downstream 

11 from those power plants. 

12 I see crops not as plentiful. This past 

13 year we had corn that, oh my gosh, there was like 

14 not even -- it was only a few like four feet, 

15 five feet in. It was crazy. When I was small I 

16 remember those being huge, just huge plants and 

17 the corn being so big and it's not like that 

18 anymore. And again, I have become used to it. 

19 Yeah, I just, I've become used to it and that's 

20 like the sad part about it. 

21 And I see the haze that constantly 

22 lingers and surrounds me. You go outside and you 

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1 just see that line of haze that just completely 

2 surrounds me, surrounds our community, and it's 

3 not good. 

4 I see the increase of our people having 

5 to deal with respiratory problems such as asthma. 

6 And again, including myself.

7 I see these problems continue to be 

8 unsolved problems. You are the EPA. It says in 

9 your mission statement that it is your purpose to 

10 ensure that all Americans are protected from 

11 significant risks to human health and the 

12 environment where they live, learn, and work. I 

13 am human, I am an American, I wish to be treated 

14 equally. You have that duty to protect this 

15 Earth, and we only have one. So take that 

16 position seriously and thank you for listening to 

17 me.

18 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much, Mr. 

19 Beyale. Mr. Barney.

20 MR. BARNEY: Yes, my name is Kristopher 

21 Barney, B-A-R-N-E-Y. And I come before you now 

22 without a prepared statement, prepared statement. 

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1 But my main motivation in this life has always 

2 been to live life as a human being and respectful 

3 to the natural elements. As Dine people, as 

4 indigenous people we're taught in various ways to 

5 regard our Mother Earth and Father Sky, and 

6 everything that makes up within those boundaries, 

7 or within those realms, and the rule with respect 

8 and to regard where we're coming from. 

9 And I, myself, am a farmer, along with 

10 this young gentleman who has spoken. And we --

11 all throughout my life I've seen the degradation 

12 of the environment within my -- around my 

13 family's land and the surrounding homeland in 

14 regards to the contamination of our water, the 

15 lowering of our springs.

16 I'm from a community called Rough Rock 

17 and Black Mesa, Arizona. And in several areas 

18 where we had springs and several areas where we 

19 have a lower watershed, that affects us 

20 dramatically with regards to our subsistence 

21 agriculture needs with lifestyle and with growing 

22 our food, and with other activities. 

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1 And so what I want to comment on is the 

2 fact that we have this distractive industry here 

3 that has really put a burden and it's very 

4 detrimental to our health (speaking in native 

5 language) and surrounding tribes and to our 

6 aquifers, to our mountains, and to places that we 

7 hold sacred, which is the whole land in it's 

8 entirety and integrity of the land. And if that 

9 is continued to be compromised by the 

10 continuation of all these power plants and 

11 further extractive industries, you know, what do 

12 we have? We don't have anything. It's almost as 

13 if our humanity is devalued. It's almost as if 

14 the things that we speak for, what we have always 

15 stepped good for through our history as stewards 

16 of the land, as caretakers, is almost -- will be 

17 forgotten, and it's being trampled upon now by 

18 your own people who have elective, who side with 

19 corporations. And the industry itself and coming 

20 in and proposing these -- or the divide and 

21 conquer relationships that have transpired 

22 between the federal government corporations and 

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1 our own tribal government. And this I think is 

2 in opposition to our traditional law and to -- is 

3 opposition to how we perceive life and the 

4 sacredness of life, the sacredness of water, the 

5 sacredness of soil and air. 

6 And so speaking for myself and for others 

7 who are not here, my family and other things that 

8 I care for, my animals and my corn field, things 

9 that I as a young man has expressed, you know, 

10 it's just it's really -- it takes a different --

11 it takes a toll. All of this takes a toll on us 

12 and we have people here who have been struggling, 

13 who have been fighting these battles on a 

14 national/international scale. They tried to 

15 bring attention to something as simple as just 

16 reducing the amount of emissions coming out, Co2 

17 that's coming out of the NGS Power Plant, Four 

18 Corners Power Plant, San Juan Power Plant, and

19 all these other power plants that are burning 

20 coal on our homelands. And I hope that you have 

21 the jurisdiction or some authority to work out in 

22 a diplomatic way with the tribes and energy 

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1 interests to reach a reasonable resolution when 

2 it comes to looking at how we can not only 

3 reduce, but possibly as some folks have 

4 suggested, transition to a more sane sustainable 

5 and healthy energy infrastructure. 

6 And so I just want to say these things, 

7 hopefully it is considered. Hopefully this is 

8 not just talk. Hopefully there is something 

9 decided from all this. Hopefully they have the 

10 wisdom and foresight to actually implement 

11 something that will actually see resolution 

12 within our lifetime or within the short-term 

13 future. 

14 So that's what I want to say here and I 

15 thank you for listening to me and taking my 

16 testimony. (Speaking in native language.)

17 Thank you.

18 MS. KING: Thank you.

19 MS. MCKELLY: Thank you.

20 MR. GREEN: All right. Thank you both. 

21 All right. Next we have, and I'm sure I'll get 

22 this wrong, Jihan Gearon and Molly Hogue. Jihan 

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1 Gearon is spelled, G-E-A-R-O-N. And Molly Hogue. 

2 And once again, we do have a translator if 

3 necessary. Ms. Gearon will go first.

4 MS. GEARON: Okay. Jihan Gearon. Last 

5 name G-E-A-R-O-N. 

6 (Speaking in native language.) 

7 So I introduce myself for all of the 

8 Navajos that came out here, to know who I am. My 

9 name is Jihan. I come from a community on the 

10 Navajo Reservation called Sawmill, Arizona, and I 

11 live in Flagstaff now and I'm the Executive 

12 Director of the Black Mesa Water Coalition. 

13 So thank you for, you know, the time to 

14 speak here and also thank you to all the Dine 

15 people who came from all over the place to come 

16 here too, easily five hours or more to get here, 

17 and who are impacted by these power plants that 

18 we're talking about. It really shows how 

19 important this issue is to people there. And it 

20 also brings up a good point of why there is no 

21 hearing or hearings in the regions where these 

22 power plants actually exist and the communities 

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1 who are actually impacted by those power plants. 

2 That's something that needs to happen.

3 I guess my overall point was that the 

4 proposed reductions for our tribe and these power 

5 plants is simply not enough. Not enough to 

6 address the impacts of climate change that many 

7 people have, you know, shown how they are being 

8 impacted. And also not enough to reduce the 

9 other pollution that comes from these power 

10 plants outside of carbon dioxide, like methane 

11 and sulfur dioxides and nitrous oxides, which 

12 impact people's health and also impacts the water 

13 that are used to keep these operations going, and 

14 also impacts our Navajo Nation economy.

15 I'm not from Black Mesa. I'm not from 

16 around Navajo Generating Station or the Four 

17 Corners Power Plant or San Juan Generating 

18 Station, but as a Navajo, a young Navajo person, 

19 I am affected by the fossil fuel industry on the 

20 Navajo nation.

21 Our organization, Black Mesa Water 

22 Coalition, is really trying to find alternative 

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1 economic development that works for our people, 

2 that builds off a traditional economy, and is 

3 more sustainable and in line with our traditional 

4 values and teachings. These are things like how 

5 to improve the wool industry, how to build our 

6 food -- traditional food economy backup to 

7 provide for our people, and how to promote 

8 renewable energy in these areas. 

9 And the truth is that the fossil fuel 

10 industry holds us back from that. It keeps us 

11 from going into these other forms of economic 

12 development. 

13 For example, you know, why is it that a 

14 wool washing facility in Hard Rock is considered 

15 unfeasible because there's not enough water 

16 resources, yet 15 miles away Peabody Coal Company 

17 is able to use as much water as it wants for 

18 free? You know, we live in a desert, we live in 

19 a high desert and there are precious resources 

20 that we need to use for other things besides 

21 fossil fuel, power plants, and coalmines.

22 We are in a position where we are 

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1 economic hostages. The Navajo Nation are 

2 economic hostages to the fossil fuel industry and 

3 it's been set up this way. This supplemental 

4 proposal is another example of that because it's 

5 believe off of this false dichotomy between 

6 environmental protection, protections of human 

7 health, and jobs and economy. This is the 

8 position that we're always putting as the Navajo 

9 Nation and as tribal people, is that these two 

10 things can't go hand in hand. We have to choose 

11 one or the other. And that's where our tribal 

12 leaders operate from, that mindset. 

13 And it is a form of environmental racism. 

14 Environmental racism is alive and strong today on 

15 the Navajo Nation. And that's why most Navajo 

16 communities continue to bear the brunt and all 

17 the negative impacts of this industry while down 

18 here, you know, it's, you know, cheap 

19 electricity, cheap water, economic prosperity, 

20 housing going up all over the place, all over the 

21 city. How is that possible in the middle of a 

22 desert? That means they're obviously not living 

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1 within their means here in this area, and that's 

2 because we are doing all this work for them, 

3 coming up from the Four Corners and the Navajo 

4 Nation.

5 So why do we have to continue to bear 

6 these negative impacts? Why do we miss out on 

7 this very rare moment in which the EPA is 

8 actually able to mandate and enforce, you know, 

9 these lives. Who knows when we're going to like, 

10 have this chance again, and why are we missing 

11 out on it. As communities we continue to be the 

12 most impacted. 

13 And when do the actual polluters pay for 

14 what they're doing? Why is it on us? Why isn't 

15 it on them to pay for this and to ensure that 

16 people are healthy, to ensure that there's a just 

17 transition for us out of this.

18 EPA, the laws that you are enforcing now 

19 are a very important way for us to break out of 

20 this position that we're in. And while you have 

21 consulted with our tribal leaders you're hearing 

22 that we often fight against our own tribal 

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1 government to protect ourselves. You know, they 

2 don't necessarily represent us. And again, it's 

3 because they're operating from this economic 

4 hostage mentality in which their focus is on 

5 providing more than the 1,000 jobs that these 

6 coal industries provide.

7 And it's your obligation to not only 

8 consult with the tribes, tribal governments, but 

9 also with our own people, so I ask that you 

10 support a transition away from fossil fuels, 

11 support a transition out of the situation they 

12 were in, and enforce these regulations, the same 

13 on the Navajo Nation as every other place in the 

14 United States. Thank you. 

15 MR. GREEN: Thank you. Ms. Hogue. Ms. 

16 Hogue.

17 (Testimony through an interpreter.)

18 MS. HOGUE: Hello, all of you. Hello, 

19 all of you here. I want to say a single point 

20 here, and that's why I'm sitting here. The coal 

21 mining surrounding the community from Burnam, the 

22 coalmines are advancing into our area and it's 

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1 not good and we don't like it. 

2 Our sheep, our cattle, have changed their 

3 forage, their grazing areas and we are mindful of 

4 that and we're concerned about that. And that's 

5 what I want to mention here. 

6 The smoke and the pollution is really 

7 encroaching on our land. We live close to the 

8 area and the smoke is always coming on to our 

9 area. There's a lot of dust that comes with this 

10 development and we don't like it. It's not good. 

11 My husband, Charles Hogue, he died. His 

12 life was taken. His heart was impacted. The 

13 doctors couldn't save him. His life was taken. 

14 He is a veteran and went to the battles and he 

15 defended the land, and yet the smoke and the 

16 pollution took his life and I'm worried about 

17 that. I think about that. 

18 I was alone and left with the kids, so 

19 this thing really impacts life and health. And 

20 people say that the is rain with it as well. And 

21 we don't like that, and this business about 

22 digging our lands over us and we don't like that, 

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1 and that's what I want to talk to you about. 

2 They have no empathy for us, the people 

3 that live there. So I'm not the only one that is 

4 concerned about this. Many of us are being --

5 our lands are being taken away by the digging of 

6 coal. And that's what I wanted to address here, 

7 to talk about.

8 There's many things I can say or should 

9 say, but we need to start talking. And talking 

10 is not -- loses something, and that's what I want 

11 to say now. Careful planning may help to 

12 overcome this negative effects of coal mining 

13 production, and that's why we're here today, 

14 several of us. And that's what I want to say 

15 here. And thank you for giving me this time. 

16 That's all I want to say now. Thank you.

17 MR. GREEN: All right. Thank you very 

18 much, both of you.

19 Next we have Jovan Begay and Evelyn 

20 Begay. Jovan Begay will go first, please.

21 MS. J. BEGAY: My name is Jovan Begay, 

22 and my last name is B-E-G-A-Y. 

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1 I just wanted to come and tell, you know, 

2 about my niece. He's got a -- he has to use a 

3 air for his -- to breath. So he can't breath on 

4 his own because of the pollution in the air. And 

5 to this day he's had it for I don't know how 

6 long. I know he's got air to use for his lungs 

7 and he can't breath on his own. And that he 

8 can't breathe on his own and stuff like that, so.

9 That's all I have to say.

10 MR. GREEN: I'm sorry, who was that you 

11 were speaking of?

12 MS. J. BEGAY: My nephew.

13 MR. GREEN: Your nephew. All right. 

14 Thank you very much. Ms. Begay.

15 MS. E. BEGAY: Good afternoon. My name 

16 is Evelyn H. Begay. I'm from Tuba City, Arizona. 

17 And my main concern is like everybody said, the 

18 air pollution, the mine, the uranium that we live 

19 nearby, I lost a brother because of that, of the 

20 coal mine, about a month ago, to cancer. And I 

21 lost my mom because of his lung -- her lung, 

22 asthma. That is my main concern. And I lost my 

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1 husband a year ago. He's from Black Mesa where 

2 the mines are being all that pollution, where 

3 they have all the livestock and all the grass. 

4 A week ago I went back up there and I saw 

5 all that pollution out there, all the dust that 

6 they breathe in, and their lifestyle. It's not 

7 like it used to be. How they graze out there, 

8 most of them are just in the corral. They buy 

9 hay from other places to feed their animals and 

10 their main concern was that pollution, that the 

11 water, and some of the relatives, they lost their 

12 livestock because of that. All 40 livestock, 

13 sheep. They drink water and they're all gone. 

14 They die of that. They didn't even know it was 

15 from the mine, but I don't know what the water is 

16 in there that killed all the livestock.

17 And around our area it's the same too. 

18 We don't have that much rain. We don't have like 

19 when I was a young child it used to be real 

20 pretty land. The trees were green, the flowers 

21 were pretty, and you could breathe in fresh air 

22 and there were -- our relative, my parents, my 

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1 grandma, my grandpas, and they have a lot of 

2 livestock, animals, cows, horses. They used to 

3 be this beautiful -- they would grow, and it used 

4 to rain every Friday where we used to graze. 

5 There used to be beautiful flowers everywhere.

6 Now I see dead trees, dead flowers. All 

7 I see is dust in the air and that makes our 

8 children breath in that dust. It causes asthma, 

9 sickness, and all different kind of health. 

10 When you go to PHS or Indian Hospital all 

11 they give you is medication which has a lot of 

12 side effects that they don't know, that are given 

13 to them, that they take. Take this, take it 

14 home, and that will cure you. That's not it. 

15 Because of that my husband -- I lost my husband. 

16 It does have a lot of side effects.

17 That's my main concern. What about our 

18 future, our grandkids, our great grandkids? 

19 I hope somehow they get a good education 

20 and they can speak for their -- for us Navajo 

21 people are in the land. I see some of these 

22 young ladies. They can really speak good English 

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1 and they've written it down, they know what to 

2 say. I love that. I wish in the future some 

3 day, I look forward for them to be a leader some 

4 day so they can speak for their people. That's 

5 my main concern. And thank you for your patient 

6 and your listening to me. 

7 I hope you take that into consideration 

8 for our elders, what they said. And it was really 

9 emotional. When you lose a person that you love, 

10 cancer, that's what -- that's how I feel right 

11 now. I'm very emotional because I love my 

12 brother that I lost. We can't cure him. The 

13 doctors can't cure him. That's how we lost him. 

14 He used to work in the Peabody Coal Mine. So

15 work is not all that. Money is not all that. We 

16 cannot bring him back.

17 So hopefully I'm very thankful that you 

18 guys are listening to us. I hope what people 

19 said here, you take it back and somehow get it to 

20 where you can help these people out here, Navajo 

21 Nation and other tribes. And thank you for 

22 listening to me.

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1 MR. GREEN: Thank you both very much. 

2 All right. Next we have Hope Lonetree and Mary 

3 Babbitt-Maloney. Are you Ms. Maloney? All 

4 right. We're still looking for Hope Lonetree. 

5 She's coming.

6 All right. We'll ask Hope Lonetree to go 

7 first and if both of you can repeat your names 

8 and spell your last names, that will be helpful. 

9 Thank you.

10 MS. LONETREE: Thank you for giving us 

11 this opportunity and certainly myself, to speak 

12 to this issue or issues that have been mentioned 

13 earlier.

14 First I want to introduce myself again. 

15 My name is Hope MacDonald Lonetree, and I am from 

16 Tuba City, Arizona, within the Navajo Nation. I 

17 am also a former legislator on the Navajo Nation 

18 Council, and I represented the second largest 

19 community within the Navajo Nation.

20 I'm here today to ask you to please 

21 listen with great concern to the people that have 

22 spoken earlier about the proposed rule that you 

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1 have made, but also their concern for the 

2 environment and the area that they live on. 

3 You have heard through the morning that 

4 the Navajo people depend greatly on the land, and 

5 that is something that you may not find -- or you 

6 will not find in a municipality. And so when you 

7 listen to these people please understand the 

8 environment that they live in and why it's so 

9 important to them. And to us, I should say. And 

10 although I'm not directly in the communities that 

11 have these power plants I am greatly concerned 

12 about my environment and I drive through Navajo 

13 land on a regular basis and it really is hurtful 

14 to see the pollution in this beautiful area. And 

15 I'm sure that many of you have seen pictures of 

16 Navajo land. It is vast and it's the most 

17 gorgeous land that you could ever imagine. 

18 And so to see the pollution that hovers 

19 over our land is very hurtful to many people. 

20 But even more so, to have it impact health is 

21 even greater importance and priority for our 

22 people. So I ask that you continue to listen to 

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1 the comments that come in from Navajo, from the 

2 concerns that they have, the request of you to 

3 continue to strengthen these regulations, but 

4 also to be able to find ways to enforce that.

5 Thirdly I'd also ask you to help our 

6 tribal governments to find ways, whether it's 

7 through technical assistants or through grants, 

8 any kind of funding to really start developing a 

9 green economy so that they have alternatives. 

10 Our people should never feel that they have to 

11 make a choice between jobs and their health. And 

12 I really feel very strongly about that and I ask 

13 that you go back to the powers that be and ask 

14 that that kind of resources be provided to our 

15 tribal government so that they can start working 

16 towards that because right now our tribal leaders 

17 feel that they have to preserve a limited amount 

18 of jobs as opposed to looking after the welfare 

19 and the health and the environment of our land. 

20 And so that's one of the primary reasons 

21 that I wanted to be here, to ask you to help us 

22 look for that, to listen to the powerful and very 

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1 moving comments and words that were given earlier 

2 about the concern for our land and our 

3 environment. It's pristine out there and that's 

4 how we've always lived, in a very pristine land, 

5 and we'd like to keep it that way. 

6 So we look to you because often times 

7 these companies, energy companies have many more 

8 resources than the people who have come here by 

9 bus or their own vehicle jus to tell you their 

10 story and why this is so important to them. So 

11 we ask you to listen to the voices here because 

12 they don't have the resources that the energy 

13 companies do.

14 And so with that I want thank you again 

15 for this opportunity. I'm sure that we will have 

16 other people that will be able to provide 

17 comments on the record. If I can be available to 

18 be of any assistance as far as working with our 

19 tribal government, I would like to do that 

20 because as a former legislator on the Navajo 

21 Nation I know the decisions that they have to 

22 make. But also I know the concern that our 

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1 people have for our environment and the health 

2 problems that they have because of the industry.

3 So thank you and (speaking in native 

4 language).

5 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much. Ms. 

6 Maloney.

7 MS. MALONEY: (Speaking in native 

8 language.) My clan is Red House and I’m a 

9 Mexican clan, and I'm here to be heard, and I'm 

10 here for my Navajo people, and also the Hopi 

11 people too. They're all living on the 

12 reservation, so. 

13 AS I was driving back from Flagstaff one 

14 day, and then I saw the black gray pollution, you 

15 know, floating right across from Page to Black 

16 Mesa, that's when I noticed that the pollution 

17 was on the Navajo Reservation. 

18 And right now I'm concerned about that. 

19 I'm concerned about my people. And also they're 

20 concerned about their land too, their animals, 

21 their gardening. You know, we plant our food on 

22 the ground and then also the sky, that is our 

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1 father. Yeah. 

2 I can't say that. And then also the 

3 Mother Earth. That's our mother. We think of 

4 them as that. We plant from our Mother Earth, 

5 that our Mother Earth is the one that's feeding 

6 us, you know, for our food is grown, and also the 

7 sky that's where the rain is coming from. And 

8 all that pollution is right in the middle of 

9 that, is you know, going down into the ground. 

10 And that's not good. Not good for the people. 

11 Not good for everybody.

12 People are driving, you know, going 

13 through, back and forth, you know, on the 

14 reservation. None Indian people, they're also 

15 affecting. So we need good air and also my 

16 brother was working at the generating station in 

17 Page, Arizona. He died from lung disease, so 

18 that's telling us something to, you know, our 

19 people are dying from lung disease, maybe heart 

20 disease, and any kind of disease, you know, that 

21 can cost from pollution. Even our water has been 

22 polluted, and the food that we eat. 

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1 So that's just what it going on, you 

2 know, that we are all concerned about and I'm 

3 also a health provider. I'm a massage therapist 

4 and I see a lot of people that are coming in are 

5 also complaining about their health and it's sad. 

6 It's very sad. And some of them say that the 

7 hospital can't do nothing about it because of 

8 their lung, you know, it's affecting in many, you 

9 know, in many ways and it's affecting our 

10 physical, you know, life. And it's really hard.

11 So, thank you for listening and I hope 

12 you will do something about it and spread our 

13 word and they will listen. And I just think why 

14 on the Navajo Reservation the generating station 

15 has been, you know, built on it. Why? I just 

16 always ask myself question that, why? Why is 

17 that happening? 

18 So, thank you for listening and thank you 

19 for the opportunity to -- for me to talk here and 

20 say what I have to say. Thank you very much.

21 MR. GREEN: Thank you.

22 MS. MALONEY: Appreciate.

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1 MR. GREEN: Thank you, both.

2 Okay. Next up we have Zachariah Ben and 

3 Lawrence Goode. Please repeat your name and 

4 spell your last name for the court reporter. Mr. 

5 Ben, you go first.

6 MR. BEN: Hello. (Speaking in native 

7 language.) My name is Zachariah Ben, B-E-N. I'm 

8 from Ship Rock, New Mexico, northwest corner of 

9 New Mexico on the Navajo Nation. I have three 

10 younger siblings and two sisters and a brother. 

11 I have a mother and father. I have lived there 

12 my whole life next to two coal-powered plants. I 

13 am currently apprenticing to become a Navajo 

14 medicine man, an herbal spiritual practitioner 

15 using the natural elements of the Earth to heal 

16 people with major or severe ailments.

17 I know, feel, and experience first-hand 

18 on what our people are going through within the 

19 Navajo Reservation, from lung cancer, tumors, 

20 skin conditions, and heart problems. 

21 My mother has suffered and dealt with 

22 asthma her whole life. I have feared for her as 

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1 I might wake up one day and she is no longer 

2 breathing. Now my younger brother has to suffer 

3 along with my brother. 

4 I, myself, was fortunate to be healthy, 

5 to not have these ailments and with this ability 

6 and this health I go out to heal and help my 

7 family and local communities. 

8 These ailments come from these power 

9 plants. I have seen these ailments increase over 

10 my lifetime as our elders and the youth have come 

11 to us for healing and cleansing throughout my 10 

12 years of apprenticeship. I have also seen our 

13 environment become increasingly brown and plain. 

14 For example, through my years of herb 

15 collecting I have seen a number of indigenous 

16 plants and herbs become increasingly rare and 

17 extinct because of the acid rain that comes down 

18 and leaves two inches to half a foot of residue 

19 that soaks into the soil that makes it impossible 

20 for our plants and herbs to even see the sunlight 

21 to grow. 

22 I have also seen this within our farming 

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1 communities as I am a farmer. As the watermelons 

2 and corn become smaller and smaller each year, 

3 using the San Juan River water that gets chemical 

4 runoff from these power plants, and knowing that 

5 the smoke stacks that continue to put high levels 

6 of pollution 24/7 into our environment and 

7 atmosphere, knowing these facts we need that 

8 increase and emission control for our environment 

9 and people today, and our future of tomorrow.

10 I have become scared and worried, but not 

11 hopeless, for a future generation knowing the EPA 

12 organizations, groups, and the people in general 

13 are fighting to keep our Earth clean for the 

14 future of our young and becoming generation. So, 

15 that is it and that is all I have to say for 

16 today. Thank you.

17 MR. GREEN: Thank you, Mr. Ben. And I 

18 notice that you had your comments electronically. 

19 If you could print those out or stop at the 

20 registration desk, they can tell you how to make 

21 sure that you get those into the docket if you 

22 want to submit those.

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1 MR. BEN: Yes.

2 MR. GREEN: Mr. Goode. 

3 MR. GOODE: Yes, sir. My name is 

4 Lawrence Goode. Last name spelled G-O-O-D-E. 

5 I'm originally from here, Phoenix, Arizona. I 

6 have three brothers, two sisters, and what I 

7 think is, you know, the pollution, you know, the 

8 environment going around, you know, we need a 

9 change and new scenery to everything, you know.

10 That's all I have. I'm not like familiar 

11 but I understand, you know, and there's something 

12 that we need a change every day.

13 MR. GREEN: All right. Thank you very 

14 much.

15 MR. GOODE: Yes, sir.

16 MR. GREEN: Thank you, both. All right, 

17 we're going to do two more and then we're going 

18 to break for lunch. We have Glen Manygoats and 

19 Terold Charley. 

20 Okay, Mr. Manygoats, you're first. 

21 MR. MANYGOATS: Okay. Good morning. My 

22 name is Glen Manygoats. My last name is spelled 

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1 M-A-N-Y-G-O-A-T-S. Good morning and thank you 

2 for the opportunity of speaking for speaking and 

3 submitting a written comment submitted 

4 electronically.

5 I am a member of the Navajo Nation and I 

6 would like to make two references to a couple of 

7 documents that have been released recently. One 

8 is the IPCC documents. It's just, it's a summary 

9 of approved for policy makers. And it's dated 

10 2014 of November.

11 And the other one is the Union of 

12 Concerned Scientists, and it's dated October of 

13 2014, it's a policy brief, and it's titled 

14 strengthening the EPA's Clean Power Plan.

15 Getting back to the IPC's new report, the 

16 climate change 2014 synthesis report, it provides 

17 a helpful summary of the panel's previous three 

18 big reports on climate change or global warming, 

19 which dealt with the physical science of climate 

20 change, how bad it could get, and how to stop it.

21 But really what it contains is seven key 

22 points from the report are -- I'm just going to 

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1 mention the first three and leave the other four 

2 out. Right now the world is failing badly on its 

3 climate change goals. The climate change goals 

4 is trying to stick below the 10 degree C above 

5 preindustrial levels. 

6 Number two, hitting those goals will 

7 require sharp emission cuts, and soon. And there 

8 is uncertainty there. Somewhere around 41 to 72 

9 percent below 2010 levels by mid-century to stay 

10 below 2 degrees C. 

11 The third one, cutting emissions will 

12 require a massive technological push. The world 

13 would have to triple or even quadruple the share 

14 of clean energy that it uses by 2050 and keep 

15 scaling it up thereafter. And the second 

16 reference that I made of the Union of Concerned 

17 Scientist's proposal, okay, it basically says the 

18 EPA's renewable energy target, which is building 

19 block 3, is conservative and pessimistic and 

20 could easily be doubled. The EPA could go much 

21 further when it comes to the current Clean Power 

22 Plan renewable energy targets, and that states 

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1 can cost effectively produce nearly twice as much 

2 renewable electricity as the EPA calculated.

3 The EPA's draft rule requires existing 

4 power plants to cut carbon dioxide by 30 percent 

5 from 2005 levels by 2030. The UCS study states 

6 that while 30 percent cuts may seem like a lot, 

7 emissions are already 15 percent below 2005 

8 levels in 2013. So the rule cuts only another 15 

9 percent over the next 15 years, an unambitious 

10 goal, and one far lower than climate sciences 

11 have determined is needed to prevent the most 

12 catastrophic impacts of climate change.

13 The UCS study found that the plan, the 

14 CPP could increase total emissions reductions 

15 from 30 percent below 2005 levels by 2030, to 

16 approximately 40 percent by updating the 

17 renewable energy targets.

18 Now, by instituting a larger role for 

19 renewable energy in the CPP tribes may benefit 

20 from the additional wrap up and renewable energy. 

21 Investor owned utilities cooperative utilities, 

22 public power agencies and independent power 

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1 producers would now look at native lands serious 

2 for additional opportunities to meet these 

3 updated targets.

4 Now, the Navajo nation is primarily a 

5 coal based resource tribe today. But the Navajo 

6 Nation did not have much of a choice at the start 

7 of late 1950s and '60s. During that time of 

8 negotiations for the Four Corners Power Plant and 

9 NGS, the federal government needs to set up an 

10 environment where the Navajo Nation can 

11 transition away from coal, encourage development 

12 of cleaner sources of energy.

13 Now I'll make a quick comment on Navajo 

14 Generating Station specifically. Since the 

15 federal government is a part owner of that power 

16 plant, it would be a good place to start. The 

17 federal government can send a message that is 

18 serious about emissions by transitioning their 

19 ownership share of NGS before 2025 to a mix of 

20 either building block 2 and 3. Okay. You know, 

21 it doesn't have to be 100 percent renewable. It 

22 certainly doesn't have to be 100 percent gas, but 

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1 it could be a mix.

2 MR. GREEN: Mr. Manygoats, one minute, 

3 please.

4 MR. MANYGOATS: Well, I'm just about done 

5 so anyways, you know, there is a lot to be done. 

6 The basic plan needs updating is what I'm trying 

7 to say. I'm trying to tell you that renewable 

8 could play a bigger role, okay? That's not out 

9 of the question. I think it's just too lax, it's 

10 too unambitious. You need to wrap it up.

11 Unfortunately nature has the final call 

12 on this and I wish that you would listen to the 

13 scientists. This is what they're telling you.

14 And I think my time is up so thank you 

15 very much.

16 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much. Mr. 

17 Charley.

18 MR. CHARLEY: Terold Charley, C-H-A-R-L19 E-Y. 

20 (Speaking in native language.)

21 I will speak a little in Navajo and 

22 translate.

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1 (Speaking in native language.)

2 MR. GREEN: I assume you're going to 

3 translate for us.

4 MR. CHARLEY: Yes, hold on.

5 MR. GREEN: Okay. Thank you.

6 MR. CHARLEY: (Speaking in native 

7 language.)

8 Clean water, we need that back. This is 

9 -- we want to talk about that. Okay. Now, I'll 

10 go back and to switch to English.

11 What I just said was, from the beginning 

12 in Navajo tradition, what they call (in Navajo) 

13 from the beginning, we were put here on Mother 

14 Earth to protect her, take care of her, as she 

15 will do the same for us from the plants, the 

16 animals, to the insects, to the water. 

17 And you four right there are sitting 

18 there to help us as people to protect Mother 

19 Earth. And as far as the power plants I do not -

20 - I'm not all for it and I wish that we could 

21 find a better way to keep Mother Earth healthy, 

22 and the plants and all the clean water that our 

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1 animals and ourselves depend on, we want them to 

2 be clean and have a healthful life, and to get 

3 back to where we were from the beginning.

4 It might not be the same, but it would 

5 really help a lot if the U.S. EPA could find a 

6 better way to find jobs for everyone else in the 

7 United States and live a healthy life. 

8 And that's all I have to say for now. 

9 Thank you.

10 MR. GREEN: Thank you very much, Mr. 

11 Charley. 

12 All right. We're going to break for 

13 lunch now. I'd like to ask everyone to be back 

14 by 1:00. Thank you all very much.

15 (Luncheon recess from 12:11 p.m. until 

16 1:10 p.m.) 

17 MR. NEIBLING: Good afternoon, the 

18 meeting will come to order. My name is William 

19 Neibling and I am one of the chairs of today's 

20 public hearing. Thank you for coming today.

21 Joining me on the panel this afternoon 

22 are Anita Lee, Amy Zimfer, and Laura Ferris. We 

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1 are here today to listen to your comments on the 

2 Clean Power Plan supplemental proposal for power 

3 plants in Indian Country and U.S. territories. 

4 EPA announced this proposed rule on 

5 October 28th, 2014, and published it in the 

6 Federal Register on November 4th, 2014. Power 

7 plants are the largest source of carbon pollution 

8 in the United States, accounting for roughly one 

9 third of all domestic greenhouse gas emissions. 

10 Like the Clean Power Plan proposal for 

11 states, this supplemental proposal sets area 

12 specific goals for areas of Indian Country and 

13 U.S. territories with affected power plants, and 

14 provides options for meeting those goals in a 

15 flexible manner that accommodates a diverse range 

16 of approaches. EPA's following through on its 

17 commitment in the June 2014 Clean Power Plan 

18 proposal to issue a supplemental proposal to 

19 address these sources.

20 This supplemental proposal relies on the 

21 approach used in the June 2014 Clean Power Plan 

22 proposal as based on new information and data 

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1 provided through additional outreach to covered 

2 facilities and tribal and territorial 

3 governments.

4 The supplemental proposal has two main 

5 elements. Emission rate based goals specific to 

6 each area of Indian Country in each U.S. 

7 territory that has affected electric generating 

8 units, and two, guidelines for the development, 

9 submission, and implementation of plans to 

10 achieve those goals. 

11 The goal is a target for areas to meet by 

12 2030 while starting to make meaningful progress 

13 toward reductions by 2020. EPA is proposing a 

14 two-part goal structure. An interim goal for an 

15 area to meet on an average over the 10-year 

16 period from 2020 to 2029, and a final goal for an 

17 area to meet at the end of that period in 2030 

18 and thereafter. 

19 EPA is not prescribing a specific set of 

20 measures for an area to put into its compliance 

21 plan and a tribe with jurisdiction over an 

22 affected power plant in its area has the 

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1 opportunity but not the obligation to establish a 

2 plan for its area of Indian Country.

3 For Indian Country EPA is proposing rules 

4 for affected power plants within the Navajo 

5 Nation, the Ute Tribe of the Uenta and Uray 

6 Reservation, and the Fort Mojave Tribe. For 

7 territories EPA is proposing goals for Puerto 

8 Rico and Guam only. The EPA is not proposing 

9 goals for American Samoa, the Northern Marianna 

10 Islands, or the U.S. Virgin Islands.

11 I'd like to thank you all for taking time 

12 out of your day to join us and share your 

13 comments or listen to other people's comments. 

14 Before we get started I have a few housekeeping 

15 items and ground rules that will help make 

16 today's hearing run as smoothly as this morning.

17 First, please be sure that you've checked 

18 in at the registration desk, even if you're not 

19 planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 

20 speak online or by phone but haven't yet told us 

21 that you're here, please step out to the 

22 registration desk and let the EPA staff there 

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1 know that you've arrived.

2 So here is how the hearing will work. 

3 I'll call speakers up in pairs and when your name 

4 is called, please come to the table at the front 

5 of the room. When I call on you to speak please 

6 state your name and spell it for the court 

7 reporter. Your comments will be transcribed and 

8 included in the record of comments on the 

9 proposed rule. 

10 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

11 give comments. We have a light here to help you 

12 know how much time you have left to speak. When 

13 it turns from green to yellow that means you have 

14 one minute remaining. When it turns red that's a 

15 signal that it's time to wrap up your testimony.

16 When you are finished speaking please 

17 remain at the table until the person next to you 

18 has completed his or her testimony. We are here 

19 to listen to you today, however a panel member 

20 may ask you questions to clarify your comments. 

21 After the pair of speakers testifies I 

22 will then call up the next pair of speakers and 

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1 so on and so forth. If you've brought a written 

2 copy of your testimony please give that to the 

3 staff at the registration desk before you leave 

4 today. If you have additional comments you would 

5 like to make you can submit them in writing and 

6 information about how to submit comments to the 

7 docket is available at the registration desk. 

8 You can also submit written comments directly at 

9 the registration desk.

10 Comments for the supplemental proposal 

11 must be received by December 19th, 2014. We will 

12 put any written comments submitted today in the 

13 official docket for the proposed rule. 

14 Instructions for submitting comments in other 

15 ways are available at the materials table near 

16 the registration desk.

17 We're scheduled to go until 8:00 p.m. 

18 tonight, but will take a dinner break at around 

19 5:00 p.m. so everyone can get something to eat. 

20 In addition we may take an occasional short break 

21 throughout this afternoon as needed and will keep 

22 you posted as the day goes on.

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1 If you have any questions please see the 

2 staff at the registration desk and somebody will 

3 try to help you. Finally I would like to ask 

4 each of you to please be respectful of everyone 

5 who speaks today. We have people with a wide 

6 variety of views in the audience and we want to 

7 hear from each of you. So we can do that and to 

8 be fair to everyone we ask that everyone listen 

9 quietly. Even applause can slow things down and 

10 we want to hear from everyone who is signed up to 

11 speak.

12 Thank you again for taking the time today 

13 to share your comments on the supplemental 

14 proposal. I think we should get started. 

15 So the first pair of speakers are Vincent 

16 Harris Yazzie, who is here, and Joanne Chisey. 

17 Is Joanne here from the audience? If she is not 

18 here we'll see if she shows up in a moment. Is 

19 Liza Hogue present? Okay. Joanne is coming.

20 MS. CHISEY: Thank you.

21 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. Ms. Chisey. 

22 Ms. Chisey, could you please join Mr. Yazzie at 

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1 the table when you're ready? 

2 Mr. Yazzie, please begin whenever you're 

3 ready.

4 MR. YAZZIE: Hi. My name is Vincent 

5 Yazzie. I noticed the carbon final goal for 

6 Navajo Nation is pretty much based after TWIG, 

7 which is interrupt, just shut down one unit and 

8 assume that will take care of all the problems. 

9 Mainly dropping the carbon emissions by 30, or at 

10 least a third.

11 But there happen to be some problems with 

12 that number and that the TWIG decision is now 

13 under petition for review. I'd be happy to meet 

14 with all the lawyers in that case. 

15 As far as TAR and cooperation with the 

16 EPA and the Navajo Nation, TAR is only for 

17 eligible tribes. As part of the lease agreement 

18 with NGS and SRP, the Navajo Nation waived a lot 

19 of regulations on the operation of NGS so that 

20 formation of TWIG is actually a form of 

21 regulation derived from TAR, Tribal Authority 

22 Rule. 

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1 And there is amendment of Navajo Nation 

2 council for the Navajo Nation to cooperate with 

3 SRP and environmental and emission controls. But 

4 that amendment says this amendment does not take 

5 affect until it's signed off by the Secretary of 

6 Interior a little later. So that amendment is 

7 really no good. So TWIG is actually an illegal.

8 So, you may have to go back to the 

9 drawing boards and find a way to get around the 

10 323 grant and lease agreement with SRP and the 

11 tribe so that the Navajo Nation can be TAR 

12 eligible. 

13 So it will also be good to have some 

14 people from Guam here too. I noticed that 

15 affects those people too, so. 

16 But carbon emissions, last year I went 

17 hunting. It was degrees 20 Fahrenheit when I set 

18 up my camp, got ready for the hunt the next 

19 morning, but that night the temperatures dropped 

20 tremendously. It was 20 degrees fahrenheit. 

21 Next morning it was like minus maybe -- it was 

22 very cold; extremely cold. It damaged my 

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1 emission system, it actually cracked the plastic. 

2 I couldn't start the vehicle. It had trouble. I 

3 had to take it back home and bring out another 

4 vehicle.

5 And the cold -- I was not prepared for 

6 it. The cold was so great it went through 

7 whatever. I wasn't prepared for that arctic dry 

8 air that came that night.

9 And I woke up many times in the night, 

10 screaming from the pain from the cramps, 

11 wondering if you could freeze up. So, you have 

12 to bring these current emissions -- carbon 

13 dioxide captures heat in the tropics and it 

14 pushes it north to the Arctic. Cool air and hot 

15 air do not mix, so that cold air just comes 

16 moving down like an express. That same express 

17 came here a few days ago. You can feel the 

18 lingering effects out there.

19 But this time we're sort of prepared. 

20 Upgrade the insulation in the house. I use 

21 isocronolate insulation, not that bar pink stuff 

22 anymore because that's not really adequate now. 

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1 R13 is no longer adequate for this cold arctic 

2 air. You need R30. So the house is set, 

3 prepared the walls with thick enough with R25. 

4 So people are really not ready for this 

5 cold dry arctic air that comes down. So the 

6 carbon emissions need to be brought down right 

7 away, if not it’s too late, it's like prepare to 

8 bundle up. 

9 Okay. I'm done.

10 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. Ms. Chisey?

11 MS. CHISSIE: Hi. My name is Joanne 

12 Chissie. Good afternoon, I should say. 

13 (Speaking in native language.)

14 I would just like to say that I've had 

15 many good opportunities in the past couple of 

16 years to work with the Navajo Nation Council and 

17 the committees to rewrite the energy policy, 

18 which they just implemented in October of 2013. 

19 And I understand that our leaders do not 

20 understand climate change and that's the whole 

21 issue here. They're more -- the prospect of 

22 development, economic development, is really what 

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1 they have and they're with good intentions but 

2 sometimes they have to step on toes in order to 

3 get what they want. And a lot of the sacrifice

4 falls on the people.

5 And it's really a basic understanding of 

6 the scientific method and how we can prove that 

7 climate change and pollution, pollution, carbon 

8 pollution actually in the air, is creating this 

9 climate change. So we went back and I wanted to 

10 say, first of all, the establishment of this coal 

11 mine has created hardship for 40 years. And it 

12 started out with a war over land, and it was 

13 something like 10,000 families to 1,000 Hopi 

14 families that had to exchange land, move around 

15 and they finally established Peabody Coal 

16 Company, which is a state-of-the-art facility, 

17 and we've made them millions and millions of 

18 dollars.

19 But you look back and you look at the 

20 people. There's no prosperity. There's no 

21 change. They're still driving around on dirt 

22 roads, they're still poor. Nobody is able to go 

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1 to this coal, you know, this coal mine and get 

2 coal. It's not for us. 

3 The extracted coal, they mine it, they 

4 make electricity out of it, and then this 

5 electricity goes everywhere else but to the 

6 Navajo people. And it doesn't even stay within 

7 the boundaries of Arizona. It goes everywhere 

8 north.

9 And on top of that the NGS SRP and BHP 

10 mines, they're not owned by the Navajo Nation. 

11 So we're not actually making a profit. We're 

12 just making a whole lot of electricity and a 

13 whole lot of people rich. They extract this 

14 coal, they send it off in these water slurries, 

15 and they sell it for more. 

16 So when we look back, when we look at the 

17 scientific method, we have to understand that 

18 there's two entities here. There's the United 

19 States EPA and then there is the Navajo Nation 

20 EPA. And the jurisdiction falls under the Navajo 

21 Nation EPA. 

22 So no matter what we say, no matter how 

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1 we contend bring whatever, you know, it's going 

2 to fall -- the responsibility basically falls 

3 back on the Navajo Nation. And it would be great 

4 to see the EPA oversee some changes to make a 

5 difference for climate change. 

6 So we have to go back to the scientific 

7 methods. And the problem would be carbon 

8 pollution. The hypothesis, if we set limitations 

9 for carbon pollution in our ecosystem, number 

10 one, will it provide enough protection to our 

11 environment to limit climate change? Will it 

12 provide better quality of air to offer a better 

13 quality of life to our Navajo people? Will it 

14 limit the changes and affects of the weather, 

15 which is dramatically changing the ecosystem? 

16 Will it offer a rejuvenating affect to the health 

17 of our people by eliminating the physical 

18 ailments which cause disease and even death? 

19 Will it offer our environmental protection 

20 through environmental justice by limiting the 

21 extraction of the elements such as coal and 

22 uranium from the land? Will it promote a healthy 

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1 atmosphere in our ecosystem to offer a better 

2 quality of life by not contaminating the 

3 resources, our water, the land, our air, and all 

4 the animals that dwell? Will it prolong life for 

5 the Navajo people? 

6 I think if we ask ourselves all these 

7 questions we can answer yes. So, actually 

8 observing and experimenting, if we set realistic 

9 goals through a plan, we sit, we set a plan of 

10 action to oversee the -- or the U.S. EPA oversees 

11 the Navajo Nation EPA to make these changes, 

12 everybody will be happy. Everybody will live 

13 longer lives. You know, they'll be -- eliminate 

14 the coal fire plants and make them make the 

15 changes. Make them reduce the emissions, or 

16 develop a plan, a realistic plan, you know, 

17 through setting goals. That's something that the 

18 Navajo Nation really doesn't do. They don't 

19 plan, they don't set goals, and they don't look 

20 to see what the problem is and address the 

21 problem by actually implementing these plans. 

22 So that's one thing that can really make 

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1 a difference. So --

2 MR. NEIBLING: Ms. Chisey, Ms. Chisey, 

3 your time is expired so I would ask you to 

4 conclude your remarks, if you would, please.

5 MS. CHISEY: Okay. Well, I just wanted 

6 to say that a lot of our people are really 

7 natural people. They're really down to Earth 

8 people and they don't know about science. They 

9 don’t know what these emissions are. They don't 

10 know they're breathing in this air. They have no 

11 idea. And it's not fair to them that all of this 

12 happens, other people are making money off of it 

13 and benefiting from it. But the sad reality is, 

14 it's killing us.

15 So I just hope you all consider what I'm 

16 saying and really listen to the people that are 

17 speaking here, and I just appreciate the time.

18 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. And if you 

19 have further remarks, please feel free to submit 

20 them in writing.

21 MS. CHISEY: Okay.

22 MR. NEIBLING: Next we'd like to invite 

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1 up Liza Hogue and Andrew Bedoney, please. Good 

2 afternoon. Whenever you're ready. Liza.

3 MS. HOGUE: Okay. My name is Liza Hogue, 

4 H-O-G-U-E. And I would just like to say about 

5 the power plant for me, from my understanding is 

6 that I don't think the power plant is good for 

7 the Navajo Nation. The reason why is that 

8 there's a lot of people on the reservation are 

9 suffering from the pollution and going through 

10 what they want to be like, you know, they want to 

11 get fair air. 

12 So there's a lot of people out there that 

13 they're having a lot of difficulty through their 

14 situation about their body inside and they have a 

15 lot of cancer and lung cancer and kidney problems 

16 and everything. So for my understanding is that 

17 I don't think that's the right way for the Navajo 

18 Nation to put that power plant in that place, so 

19 that's the way I think about it. So I think it's 

20 not good for the Navajo Nation. That's all I can 

21 say.

22 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. Andrew.

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1 MR. BEDONEY: Hello. My name is Andrew 

2 Bedoney. So just give me a minute. I am really 

3 talking to the nation and say -- and the Navajo 

4 words or something like that would talk like that 

5 so you will understand me. (indiscernible).

6 MR. NEIBLING: I'm sorry to interrupt 

7 you, but we have a Navajo translator available if 

8 you would like that.

9 MR. BEDONEY: Yeah. 

10 (Testimony through an interpreter.)

11 MR. NEIBLING: So we will resume again 

12 and while we have the five minute clock we 

13 understand that we'll take some additional time. 

14 So please don't feel too much pressure.

15 MR. BEDONEY: For me this pollution 

16 that's on this Earth is something else. I don't 

17 agree with the many adverse effects. People are 

18 affected, they can't -- illnesses. I want my 

19 children --

20 MR. NEIBLING: I'm sorry to keep 

21 interrupting. Could we ask you to do that 

22 sequentially so the court reporter is able to 

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1 record you clearly?

2 MS. FERRIS: If the translator could 

3 have the mic pointed at his mouth while he's 

4 listening, we'd be able to understand.

5 MR. NEIBLING: So if you could ask him to 

6 give a statement and then pause so that you could 

7 translate it, that would be best if you please.

8 MS. FERRIS: It worked okay this morning. 

9 You know, probably the best thing is just for the 

10 translator to speak into the mic. But we want to 

11 hear Mr. Bedoney. So Mr. Bedoney you go ahead 

12 and then the translator, you can do it 

13 simultaneous if that works okay. It's just we've 

14 got to make sure the comments actually get 

15 recorded. Thank you. 

16 MR. BEDONEY: And so that's how this, we 

17 on the Earth suffers. Our grandparents and our 

18 children will live on this Earth. I don't agree 

19 with pollution. It causes cancer and it affects 

20 people's hearts and we would like to live on this 

21 Earth in health. We have sheep, we have horses, 

22 and they all suffer adversely from the pollution, 

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1 even our last dog, the dogs, animals are affected 

2 by this pollution. Causes cancer and the 

3 pollution from the plants, power plants. 

4 We are placed here on the sense of the 

5 Earth and we want our children to be living on 

6 this Earth in good health and this pollution is 

7 something that's not good for us. We are all 

8 suffering adversely from pollution. It still 

9 affects persons, some like we have headaches and 

10 remorse. We live in remorse because of some of 

11 these adverse effects.

12 And we would like to live here in good 

13 health. We would like our children to be living 

14 in good health as well so they can have strong 

15 hearts and I don't like this pollution that's 

16 affecting us. And those who live on the surface 

17 of the areas are not in good health. Our 

18 livestock, our sheep, they want them to be in 

19 good health as well.

20 We have plants, we grow plants, corn, et 

21 cetera, and meanwhile the water is sick, and so 

22 when the animals drink this water, it's not good 

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1 for them. No one could help the water. 

2 What I want for life is to be healthy and 

3 safe, safety. I want our animals to be healthy 

4 as well. I don't like this pollution and I want 

5 able to be in good health. So this is what I 

6 want to say to you. I'd like you to do some good 

7 things from what has been presented here. I want 

8 things to be good here. 

9 That's what I wanted to present to you, 

10 and that concludes my remarks. 

11 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you very much.

12 Next we would like to invite up Urvin 

13 Yazzie and Charlie Mitchell III.

14 MR. MITCHELL: (Speaking in native 

15 language.) 

16 My name is Charlie Mitchell, M-I-T-C-H-E17 L-L, and that's the Third. And we come forward 

18 to you today and travel a far distance to meet 

19 with you, and thank you for your time in hearing 

20 everybody's story today. 

21 And I know all of us have shared 

22 statistical numbers with you and also the fact of 

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1 the damages that are caused to the human body 

2 with each and every one of us.

3 Now I'm from Blue Gap, Arizona. In my 

4 area we face abandoned uranium mines. And from 

5 my understanding we've been trying to work with 

6 the local chapter houses and also with Navajo 

7 Nation to get these areas cleaned up and from 

8 what I've seen it does affect natural springs, 

9 the aquifers, and also the land. 

10 And my concern is the exposure from these 

11 abandoned uranium mines. Also from the power 

12 plants. It affects not only Dine people but also

13 everyone around the world. And the way I view it 

14 is we're killing Mother Earth, Father Sky, the 

15 ozone layer is opening up. And honestly the way 

16 I think about it is, we as humans, do we even 

17 think about the future.

18 You guys specialize in helping us human

19 beings in living a further life. And a lot of 

20 young ones are standing up and are realizing 

21 this. I can remember as a child running around 

22 outside in an open area where the grass had grew 

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1 green and livestock was in high numbers. 

2 Everybody pretty much was living a healthy life.

3 Now I see a lot of elderly people, a lot 

4 of young ones, facing so much disabilities, the 

5 breakdown of their bodies, you know, facing 

6 different types of illnesses.

7 We as Navajos are known as gatherers, and 

8 we collect herbs for traditional ceremonies and 

9 purposes to better ourselves. We live off the 

10 land, what Mother Nature has blessed us with, and 

11 also what Father Sky has given us as far as 

12 elements go. 

13 And as a young individual I continue to 

14 stand behind my brothers and sisters and I often 

15 wonder does the world even think about their next 

16 generation. You have heard young people pleading 

17 and crying, worried about their children. You 

18 know, you have elders here that are worrying 

19 about their future generation, their young ones, 

20 how is the world going to turn out. You know, 

21 how much more do we have to stand here and watch 

22 Mother Earth die? 

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1 And Dine ways and teachings we don't see 

2 that. We beautify ourselves. We protect the 

3 land. That's the reason why we traveled here to 

4 you to bring out our words and our concerns and I 

5 just want to say thank you for listening to each 

6 and every one of us who are coming up here and 

7 discussing this and bringing these issues forward 

8 to you. 

9 And for myself, I just wonder how can we 

10 work together? How are we going to fight this? 

11 You know, we have different -- the government is 

12 different from the United States Government from 

13 Dine, Navajo Nation. We bring these issues up to 

14 the Navajo Nation and now we're here today to 

15 speak with you. You know, to have our voices 

16 heard. 

17 Each and every one of us, we do our own 

18 research, we live this every day, we see these 

19 destructions every day. I wish a lot of 

20 individuals will take the time to come out and 

21 see how we live, what we see, what we experience, 

22 the desecration of the land of Mother Earth and 

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1 how much the weather is changing in our areas. 

2 Like I had mentioned earlier, the 

3 elements when I was a young child was different 

4 from today. Now we just see dry lands, a lot of 

5 plantations are dying. You know, how much more 

6 are we going to have to live and see desecration? 

7 Especially for our young ones. We think about 

8 our young ones. We think about ourselves. We 

9 even think about our elderlies. 

10 And it is painful. And today as I sat 

11 out there hearing everybody's stories, it really 

12 hurts me deep inside. And I don't just look at 

13 it as our Dine people. I'm looking at it as a 

14 whole general human life. Every single one of us 

15 that live here on Earth. When are we all going 

16 to stand for this purpose and fight this purpose? 

17 You know, it hurts deep inside and I wonder about 

18 the younger generation. I see my elders cry and 

19 plead and try to teach us young ones to keep our 

20 traditions alive and to keep going. And I just 

21 want to thank all the young ones out there for 

22 expressing your viewpoints and making your voices 

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1 heard and standing along with our elders. 

2 And thank you for your time to hear us 

3 out.

4 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. And we 

5 appreciate how far you traveled and how far so 

6 many people traveled to share your response with 

7 us today, and we're grateful for that. 

8 Urvin. 

9 MR. YAZZIE: (Speaking in native 

10 language.)

11 I just wanted to say, I've been following 

12 my grandpa with his traditional lifestyles for a 

13 few years before he passed, and a lot of these 

14 medicines that we use to help heal our people are 

15 starting to stink. And it's hard to find any of 

16 these plants nowadays because of the pollution 

17 and the droughts and, and also I've been 

18 traveling throughout the reservation listening to 

19 some of these people's stories and just spreading 

20 their words. Just listening to them talk about 

21 what's going on in their suffering and so on. 

22 It's kind of hard to -- it's kind of hard for me 

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1 to just sit back and do nothing for them.

2 So, we'd really like to help these people 

3 to live a health lifestyle. And also I work with 

4 some of these families throughout the reservation 

5 and it's sad when you see them in pain, 

6 especially with cancer and -- cancer, birth 

7 defects, and even my nephew and nieces, they're 

8 going through some health issues. We live not 

9 far from abandoned uranium mines and Peabody Coal 

10 Mine is not far from where we live too. So it's 

11 kind of affecting all of us in that area. All 

12 that dust particles we breathe in, all that --

13 our livestock is eating the contaminated plants 

14 and we digest it. It's causing us cancer and so, 

15 yeah, it's pretty intense. It's kind of hard and 

16 sad to see to see our people live that way. 

17 So hopefully you guys can do something 

18 about it. And hopefully you guys listen to our 

19 plea, our cries, and hopefully things will go 

20 back the way it was before. Or cut down on the 

21 pollution. So yeah, that's all I want to say. 

22 Thank you.

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1 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. Next we would 

2 like to invite up Sarada James and Raymond Begay.

3 MS. JAMES: Hi. My name is Sarada James, 

4 S-A-R-A-D-A, James. And this is my first time to 

5 one of these things hearing, you know, the 

6 stories and just came to support my friends and 

7 the families on the reservation. And hearing all 

8 these stories it is really sad and I don't know 

9 what to say what, you know, everybody else said 

10 already. It's just, it's really sad and I just 

11 really hope that something does get done really 

12 soon. Something needs to be done. That's all I 

13 wanted to say.

14 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you very much. 

15 Raymond.

16 MR. BEGAY: Raymond Begay, B-E-G-A-Y. I 

17 come off the strip with my sister, Eloise Brown, 

18 from Desert Rock. I've been working around the 

19 Four Corners area power plant for most of my life 

20 and I had a brother-in-law from the Four Corners 

21 area, and he died of cancer, but he told me one 

22 time he says, you want to live a long life, you 

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1 need to move out of here and go work somewhere 

2 else. So then I end up in North Dakota, so and I 

3 just came back two days ago. Came back on a 

4 plane. So --

5 And I see people out in the Four Corners 

6 area with the respiratory problem. They're 

7 carrying their oxygen bottles around. See that a 

8 lot around the Four Corners area. So I'd sure 

9 like to see something get done for my people who 

10 live out in that area. So, that's all I have to 

11 say.

12 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. Next we would 

13 like to invite up Elsa Johnson and Klee Benally. 

14 MS. JOHNSON: My name is Elsa Johnson, E15 L-S-A, Johnson. And I'm from Black Mesa, and a 

16 few miles from Peabody Coal Company, that's my 

17 original ancestral land. 

18 I just wanted to say that the proposed 

19 emissions reduction of four percent for both 

20 power plants is severely insufficient. And 

21 that's until 2030. And I consider that a racial 

22 -- you know, that's an injustice. That's a 

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1 social environmental injustice. And also that is 

2 discrimination.

3 And EPA knows that Native Americans 

4 suffer the worst pollution everywhere in the U.S. 

5 And so I'm very, I guess, perplexed at the agency 

6 not doing better and as many people have voiced 

7 their concerns here today, we do not benefit. We

8 don't. And ASU did an economic study and they 

9 failed to account for the fact that the plant 

10 workers and the coal mine workers, most of them 

11 live off reservation. So that money they earn 

12 does not come back to our nation at all. 

13 And so, and that also means that those 

14 jobs, 2,000 jobs, and we are 330,000, and those 

15 jobs, 400 at Peabody, 500 at NGS, with the same 

16 over at the New Mexico power plants, total 2,000. 

17 That does not help us economically.

18 And like I said, all of that money, 

19 payroll, is spent off reservation. Nothing is 

20 ever -- hardly ever purchased on the reservation. 

21 So you cannot -- they have to stop saying that 

22 because that is very erroneous. 

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1 And then you also have to remember, I 

2 wish the EPA and all the plant owners and APS, 

3 SRP, BOR would take into consideration the cost, 

4 the high cost of health that this imposes on my 

5 people, on me. And so the government is always 

6 talking about how it has to cut back. And that, 

7 you know, funding these Native American tribes 

8 are, you know, too high. 

9 And we experience the first cuts any time 

10 that there's federal cutbacks. And, you know, 

11 you guys could save a lot of money by cleaning up 

12 these power plants the right way and on time, 

13 rather than waiting 30 years. I'm going to be 

14 gone and this power plant is still going to be 

15 haunting my people and future generations. And 

16 I'm not just talking about the power plants. I'm 

17 talking about the coal mine too. And it's taking 

18 and abusing contaminating our precious water 

19 supplies. 

20 And to think that, you know, these plants 

21 and these mines can come and just operate and use 

22 as much water as they please, that's just wrong. 

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1 That's inhumane. And you come down here and 

2 people have -- Maricopa County has the highest 

3 number of golf courses. And here we are on 

4 Navajo still hauling water in 55 gallon barrels. 

5 That's a severe injustice there.

6 And so we work very hard and you know, 

7 people, you know we have illnesses that -- and 

8 people have -- my relatives here have talked 

9 about how many loved ones they've lost, and I 

10 really think that this is just ridiculous, that 4 

11 percent for both power plants by 2030. And it 

12 does not -- it's protecting the owners. It's 

13 protecting their pocketbooks. It doesn't protect 

14 us at all.

15 So I'd like to end with that. Thank you.

16 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you.

17 MR. BENALLY: (Speaking in native 

18 language.)

19 My name is Klee Benally, originally from 

20 Black Mesa, registered with the Forsake Chapter 

21 House from the Dine or Navajo Nation. That's K22 L-E-E, Benally, B-E-N-A-L-L-Y. Hopefully after 

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1 today you know how to spell it. 

2 I'm here as a volunteer representative 

3 with Clean up the Mines, an organization that is 

4 working to clean up the more than 10,000 

5 abandoned uranium mines throughout the U.S., 521 

6 which are located on Dine -- or the Navajo 

7 Nation. 

8 I want to speak to two things. One 

9 first, personally where I come from, or my family 

10 comes from is about 13 miles from this impacted 

11 area where people are talking about with Peabody 

12 Coal Companies, a harmful energy or extractive 

13 activities which are fueled by this energy 

14 economy.

15 And so we suffer those impacts and there 

16 needs to be more due diligence and to ensure that 

17 in a meaningful way more voices are included and 

18 not just meetings that are located here in 

19 Phoenix, or technical documents, 130 pages or so 

20 that are dense that are not translated and 

21 provided for the community in a meaningful level. 

22 So for the community consultation impacted areas 

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1 it's essential.

2 But I want to shift the focus to my 

3 concerns with the so-called Clean Power Plan. 

4 Specifically how my concerns are that it leaves 

5 the door open for nuclear energy. Nuclear power 

6 generation is not a solution to climate crisis. 

7 Nuclear is not zero emission when you look at the 

8 front end or impacted communities. And coming 

9 from Dine Akaya (Phonetic) we know something 

10 about this. 

11 This plan declares nuclear power, 

12 essentially, as a core element of the U.S. 

13 Climate Policy, which is very dangerous, you 

14 know, and this is exemplified by subsidizing 

15 existing reactors and other moves. So we have a 

16 disproportionate impact that we will continue to 

17 suffer if this plan is to move forward with 

18 nuclear as a so-called renewable option in the 

19 plan. 

20 So our existence, our cultural survival, 

21 our health and our communities and our sacred 

22 lands is not compatible with this furthering of 

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1 the toxic legacy of nuclear power. There are 

2 more than 10,000 abandoned uranium mines located 

3 throughout the U.S. We estimate that there are 

4 about 10 million people who live within 50 miles 

5 of an abandoned uranium mine. There are 521 on 

6 the Navajo Nation alone. The EPA, as hopefully 

7 you know, has closed more than 22 wells or 

8 roughly 22 wells due to high levels of 

9 radioactivity. And this, we're talking a 60 year 

10 plus legacy, and nothing has been done to clean 

11 this up. 

12 So if you're leaving the door open for 

13 nuclear power, what assurances do we have that 

14 this will not be exacerbated and we will not 

15 disproportionately continue to pay the price that 

16 is a deep impact of nuclear power. So we can't -

17 - you can talk about it potentially being zero 

18 emission, but you have to look at the front end. 

19 For every seven pounds of uranium that's 

20 used to generate nuclear power, there's more than 

21 a ton of waste. And our communities, the waste 

22 continues to pile up and our bodies continue to 

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1 pile up, and there has been no accountability, no 

2 responsibility taken on behalf of the United 

3 States Government, aside from the EPA's five-year 

4 plan. And some of the cleanup essentially 

5 amounts to toxic landscaping. There's no 

6 responsibility and we cannot move forward with 

7 this kind of plan so long as nuclear power is 

8 part of that, and our communities will continue 

9 to incur these disproportionate impacts.

10 In closing I would just like to add that 

11 global warming is a consequence of a war against 

12 Mother Earth, and we continue to face this and we 

13 continue to see how Mother Earth is viewed only 

14 as a commodity and it will continue to be 

15 desecrated. Our sacred sites such as the San 

16 Francisco Peace, or Mount Taylor, or Redview, or 

17 the many other sacred places, will continue to be 

18 preyed upon so long as we have this value system.

19 And so it's important, I urge you most 

20 importantly to omit nuclear energy as an option 

21 in this clean energy plan because it's not clean 

22 at all. We pay the price. 

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1 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. At this point 

2 we've been asked to take a brief, about a five3 minute break. So we will adjourn temporarily and 

4 reconvene at approximately 2:05.

5 (Recess from 1:59 p.m. until 2:11 p.m.)

6 MR. NEIBLING: Okay. We will reconvene. 

7 Thank you for your patience during that break. 

8 We had a little bit of a change in the panel 

9 makeup during the break, and so I will 

10 reintroduce us. My name is William Neibling. 

11 I'm a senior advisor at the Office of Air and 

12 Radiation at the U.S. EPA and I'm joined by Laura 

13 McKelly, Colleen McConn (phonetic) and Laura 

14 Ferris. 

15 At this point we have one person signed 

16 up to speak, Supai Water, so I will invite you up 

17 and as we get more names we will continue to 

18 invite testimony from more people.

19 MR. WATERS: Good afternoon. My name is 

20 Supai Waters, W-A-T-E-R-S. 

21 I'm here in regards of the holy way, the 

22 sacred way. I'm a relative to these people. I 

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1 am also a healer. The last of my people who is 

2 known to speak to beings, who is connected to the 

3 Star People. 

4 My relatives are the winged people. The 

5 White Winged People. It is very disrespectful to 

6 bring back the surface changers. The rights of 

7 the Mother Earth we're chartered to protect the 

8 land, the water, the air, the Earth way, natural 

9 way. But people like us, resident people, are 

10 not protected. We're chartered to be protected; 

11 guaranteed to be protected. 

12 But we will continue to practice our 

13 sacred way. I will continue to protect my 

14 relatives, the Dine, the holy people, Star 

15 People, reticent way people, Horse Nation, 

16 Mountain Lion Nation, our brother, the coyote. 

17 It was told to us that the waterway and the air 

18 that we breathe comes from the heart of the 

19 Earth, heart of the creator. 

20 My people have been in this region since 

21 the world began. The Supai tribe just released a 

22 book that supports who these people were that 

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1 came from these lands. The Hopi people are not 

2 our relatives anymore. These aren't my brothers 

3 anymore. The Dine, the Zuni were here before 

4 these people. The Hopi people are foreigners. 

5 They come with their witchcraft. They're Black 

6 Wing, they're Dark Wing. And I will defend these 

7 people. I will defend their rights and their 

8 holy way. 

9 My people are the Blue/Green Water 

10 People. We were put there to protect the salt, 

11 the water, and the springs inside the Grand 

12 Canyon. These rivers, these waters that come 

13 through the canyon that is a God-given right to 

14 protect these holy ways, to protect these 

15 mountains. 

16 Reason is that these mountains hold 

17 healing songs for us to practice. Every white 

18 man that you bury under the Earth, you think that 

19 it's going to fertilize to make the resources 

20 that you extract. You see it differently and I 

21 see it differently. And I'm asking you to 

22 respect the land, respect their hearts, respect 

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1 their mind, which protects their heart. 

2 Back before, back about four years ago I 

3 submitted a statement in District 9, EPA 

4 conference in Colorado. Again, defending and 

5 protecting their sacred way. My grandfather has 

6 a lineage to these people. A little boy was 

7 taken from us long ago, and he became the Chief 

8 Navajo of our people. He knew the spider songs, 

9 their lightning way, the lightning horse songs, 

10 blue fire woman flame, send us good horses so we 

11 can go into battle, come back home with a 

12 victory. 

13 Again, I submitted a statement to the 

14 United Nations asking their constituents for an 

15 intervention, to protect the Dine territories, 

16 and protect he Supai territories, to protect the 

17 Zuni Pueblo territories. And we were answered.

18 And now we are here facing another 

19 dilemma. Yes, we are angry but we will be 

20 patient. We know that when the world becomes a 

21 world where we will build another foundation with 

22 love and not dollars. If you take away the water 

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1 from my heart, if you take away the air from my 

2 heart, this world will not be the same anymore. 

3 That's why we were given these songs to protect 

4 it. That's why we were given these songs to 

5 defend the universe, the creation. All that you 

6 see are reticent people. 

7 I want to pray in my language for these 

8 people. (Speaking in native language.)

9 They are bleeding from their hearts. 

10 Especially for the women, especially for their 

11 children, the elders. They are pleading for you 

12 to find a solution. 

13 EPA can mean Ending Pollution Alliance. 

14 I would like to see a triumphant effort from 

15 these people. I want their way to be set free. 

16 These people are not a sacrifice for you to 

17 extend your demonic aprilitations (phonetic). We 

18 will not allow it. We will defend them, we will 

19 be in solidarity with them 100 percent. 

20 I do believe that we can make this an 

21 effort with the hearts and from you hearts I see 

22 nothing. Nothing at all. But with their hearts 

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1 being justified here, there can be a way to find 

2 another Earth. That's why we are so dangerous 

3 because we know of another way to live. That’s 

4 why we defend it in the best way we can.

5 I'm honored and grateful to be here and 

6 to defend our way and to protect our holy way as 

7 the Medicine Man. These are my people and I 

8 believe that we can change the course of history. 

9 If you can only love the Earth the way I love the 

10 Earth, and if you can only love our elders the 

11 way we love our elders and respect them in an 

12 honorable way, love the acronym, is Liberty or 

13 standing Victory Eternally. PEACE is the acronym 

14 for People for Environmental Awareness and 

15 Cultural Exchange. 

16 The statements that have been given will 

17 be considered that I ask the creator to send the 

18 White Wing people to touch their hearts, to touch 

19 their Earth, to heal their lands, to heal their 

20 hearts. First you, the EPA constituents, with 

21 still your own bodies first, and we can have 

22 respect.

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1 What's going on in this world is not our 

2 doing. It's very demonic and we will not let it 

3 continue. And that's why I'm here on behalf of 

4 my people, the (speaking in Native language). We 

5 have not experienced any detrimental toxins or 

6 any contamination in our homes yet, but we don't 

7 want to see it happen again. 

8 Thank you, Grandfather. Thank you, 

9 Grandmothers, for coming here, standing up, 

10 standing up strong because we know that in their 

11 hearts they are wrong. And so thank you, Eloise

12 Brown, for letting me come up here and defending 

13 your way, your life way.

14 If I may I'd like to sing a repeat song 

15 for their people and their way of life.

16 (Singing.)

17 No more disrespect and destructions to 

18 these people and their way of life. (Speaking in 

19 native language.)

20 Thank you. 

21 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. Thank you. At 

22 this moment we are checking to see if there are 

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1 other people registered to testify.

2 (Pause.) 

3 MR. NEIBLING: At the moment we have 

4 nobody registered to testify. 

5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Sir, I'm on at 

6 2:30. I'm registered for 2:30. Sarah White, 

7 she's registered too.

8 MS. FERRIS: Okay. Let me go check.

9 (Pause.)

10 MR. NEIBLING: Okay. We have resolved 

11 our uncertainty and it seems that you are 

12 correct, Sarah White and Victoria Gutierrez, 

13 please. Thank you for your patience.

14 MS. GUTIERREZ: Can you videotape this 

15 for me? Okay. 

16 MR. NEIBLING: Just before you begin, if 

17 there is anyone in the audience who is hoping to 

18 testify and hasn't checked in with the desk, 

19 please feel free to do so since we apparently 

20 have some available spots.

21 MS. GUTIERREZ: You don't mind if my son 

22 sits with us, right?

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1 MS. FERRIS: Of course not. 

2 MS. GUTIERREZ: This is actually for him. 

3 MR. NEIBLING: Whichever order you 

4 prefer.

5 MS. GUTIERREZ: I'm sorry. 

6 (Pause.) 

7 MS. WHITE: Hello. My name is Sarah 

8 White, Sarah Jane White, and I am going to make a 

9 comment. How many minutes do I have? Five?

10 MR. NEIBLING: Five.

11 MS. WHITE: Okay. I am a community 

12 member at Senosti Chapter. My address is 

13 Shiprock, New Mexico.

14 I've been talking about pollutions in the 

15 Four Corners for over a decade. The Clean Power 

16 Plans came up, the Clean Power Plan should 

17 address carbon pollutions from effected power 

18 plants. And I listed three of them. And Co2 

19 emissions from fossil-fired power plants and best 

20 systems of emissions reductions. 

21 According to the studies from coal 

22 fired power plants and the emissions, pollutions 

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1 affect us every day. Everything, animals, 

2 plants, and animal feeds and the environment, not 

3 only in the Indian countries but the pollution 

4 goes around the world. It sends the pollution 

5 airborne, it goes around the world so it affects 

6 everybody. It does not just specifically stay in 

7 the Navajo Nations. 

8 Of all the power plants that we have on 

9 the reservations, goes outside the boundary of 

10 the reservations. And so this affects everybody, 

11 and it's everybody, becomes everybody's problems. 

12 The health damage does not only happen to the 

13 Native Americans, but it also affects everybody 

14 across the world.

15 People in the Four Corners have a lot of 

16 health problems. The health problems from 

17 asthma, respiratory disease, heart disease, 

18 kidneys, and it's expanding of diabetes. 

19 Where does this come from? Okay, we have 

20 power plants, coal-fired power plants that's 

21 emitting so much gas into the air, and the 

22 climate change is also a big problems on the 

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1 Navajo Nations. It hit home for us. We used to 

2 hear about this climate change like out in 

3 Florida, overseas, somewhere else. Maybe east 

4 coast, south coast, wherever. But now it hit 

5 home.

6 And the weather has been very abnormal. 

7 We have four seasons. Our summers are very very 

8 severely hot and our summers are long. And our 

9 winters are short, and it's very, very severely 

10 cold. Cold, cold, more than I have ever known. 

11 You don't have to be a scientist to know these 

12 issues, to know the change in our lands, on our 

13 lands. 

14 And what does the pollution affects? It 

15 affects everything. It affects humans, it 

16 affects animals, it affects the birds, it affects 

17 the plant, it's the whole environment damage. 

18 The climate change, it goes hand in hand 

19 with health problems. The climate change is so 

20 severe in the last few years that I have known. 

21 In the springtime it's nothing but wind. We have 

22 sand dunes, we have droughts, and because of that 

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1 there's less water. The animals are affected. 

2 The wild species, like animals, anything, 

3 anything that's living on the Earth is affected, 

4 as well as humans. 

5 And it's from this people can get sick 

6 with so much wind. Nothing but sand storms and 

7 dust storms. 

8 So I ask the EPA to tighten up their 

9 regulations on their carbons from coal and Co2 

10 emission from the coal burning power plants. I 

11 personally don't think that those old grandfather 

12 coal power plants should be measured to make them 

13 efficient or lower their emission. They should 

14 be shut down, because there was a report of the 

15 Four Corners are the most polluting. It's APS 

16 and our air quality is very poor. 

17 And it's all this is from the coal-fired 

18 power plants. We had two, one on the reservation 

19 and one on the outside. It's the Four Corners, 

20 San Juan Generating Stations, and the APS are in 

21 the Four Corners. 

22 And on the reservation, the one that I 

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1 know of is NGS. They need to be replaced with 

2 solar and wind turbines. We need clean air, just 

3 like California did. We don't need to just 

4 upgrade them and keep patching them, and patching 

5 them up. We need to do away with it so we can 

6 have clean air. We deserve clean air on the 

7 reservations. We deserve rain and snow. 

8 Right now we don't get snow in the 

9 wintertime. We don't get rains in the summer 

10 time. But we have rains in the fall, which it 

11 dries at the springtime when the wind comes in. 

12 So we have a lot of health problems. That's my 

13 main concern because I'm one of them. I have 

14 asthma, I have respiratory problems, I've been on 

15 some severe medications for over 10 years and 

16 I've seen a lot of my loved ones and my relatives 

17 and family and friends that are suffering from 

18 respiratory disease, and heart disease. And this 

19 is the reason why I talk about clean air.

20 We deserve equal protections and it's 

21 unfair that the rest of the country gets to 

22 breathe cleaner air while we, with two most 

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1 polluting power plants on our lands are left to 

2 endure more pollutions with protection insides. 

3 There are four power plants in the Western U.S. 

4 that are over 2,000 megawatt, and two are on our 

5 lands, and the biggest carbon contributors. Yet, 

6 we don't get the electricity in our homes, but we 

7 do suffer the health impacts.

8 And I ask the EPA to please not just to 

9 clean these -- not just to upgrade these old 

10 grandfather power plants. They are dangerous to 

11 our health. They are dangerous to the animals, 

12 our sacred sites, and our water, our food, 

13 everything. And it's not only on the 

14 reservation, but across the whole world. Just

15 like if China is burning power plants, if they're 

16 wearing masks over there, we, if we don't take 

17 care of it, we'll be wearing masks too. If 

18 they're wearing masks over there, we breathe in 

19 some of their pollutions too. What are we going 

20 to do? We need to clean them up and we need to 

21 do away with them. Thank you.

22 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. Victoria.

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1 MS. GUTIERREZ: Okay. Can you hear me? 

2 Can everybody hear me in the room? All right. 

3 My name is Victoria Gutierrez and I am 

4 Dine, born and raised on the Navajo Reservation, 

5 the Four Corners area. I currently, and for the 

6 past 30 years, have been living in the middle of 

7 two major power plants. I live in the middle of 

8 San Juan Power Plant and the Four Corners Power 

9 Plant, right smack in the middle.

10 I was very disturbed to hear the EPA was 

11 considering leaving the Four Corners Power Plant 

12 out of the Clean Power Plan. And even more so 

13 after hearing about the supplemental ruling for 

14 the Dine land based power plants. The utterly 

15 low four to six percent suggested level for the 

16 Four Corners Power Plant is not enough to ensure 

17 healing, nor will it create an impact on any 

18 level. 

19 If you consider the top carbon polluters 

20 out of 6,000 coal-based plants, our plant sharer 

21 in Juliet, Georgia, emitting 21 metric tons. But 

22 compare that to the Four Corners Power Plant 

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1 ranking number 15, and emitting 13.8 metric tons, 

2 and the San Juan Power Plant ranking number 33 on 

3 that list while emitting 11.5 metric tons. Mind 

4 you, both are 15 miles apart from one another. 

5 A river and an invisible boundary lines 

6 of state land and reservation land separate the 

7 two. We have two major power plants, and both 

8 are on the major polluters in the country. And 

9 the only thing that separates this is, you know, 

10 an invisible boundary of reservation and a river. 

11 Pretty much it's 10 miles, 10 to 15 miles apart 

12 from one another, and that's where I live. Which 

13 means the Four Corners area that I live in holds 

14 the highest carbon pollution in the entire 

15 country with those two power plants 15 minutes 

16 apart from one another, they both emit a carbon 

17 factor of 25.3 metric tons of carbon pollution in 

18 the Four Corners area. And the Four Corners 

19 power plant is one of the oldest and dirtiest 

20 power plants in the entire country.

21 It would be an injustice not to implement 

22 stronger measures for the Four Corners Power 

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1 Plant, just as our stateside neighbors at the San 

2 Juan Power Plant are going to have implemented on 

3 them. 

4 To curb the carbon pollution on one and 

5 not the other makes no logical sense. This will 

6 ensure the Navajo Reservation will look deeper 

7 into renewable energy and start investing in it. 

8 For the way it is now the Navajo Nation is 

9 investing more into fossil fuel energy while 

10 everyone else is looking to solar and wind and 

11 other avenues. We need stricter guidelines, not 

12 only for our health but for humanity at large. 

13 Climate change in my area is very evident, 

14 increased winds and no moisture.

15 The same goes where I live, the rain 

16 stops where the power plants start. The crops 

17 are smaller, the seasons seem to be forgetting 

18 what month they come on. Winter is starting in 

19 September/October and extending into mid June. 

20 And this is very abnormal from when I was a 

21 child. But lately it is the new normal and we 

22 need to look to helping and educating people to 

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1 make homes more energy efficient, because on the 

2 Navajo Nation there is a lot of debilitating 

3 homes. 

4 And that's one thing the Navajo Nation 

5 needs start working on, helping families upgrade 

6 their homes to make them more energy efficient, 

7 and look in to ways on helping people do that.

8 And also I have a lot of family and 

9 friends that are suffering from various illnesses 

10 in my area. My son is one of them, under this 

11 table. But I mean, ever since he was born he 

12 suffered from respiratory illness. It was one 

13 after the other. Constantly at the hospital, 

14 constantly at the ER. It's disgusting where I 

15 live. It's bad.

16 And to put, on the supplemental ruling, 

17 to put such low levels is, it's like 

18 environmental genocide, is what it is. 

19 So, I am asking the EPA to help the Four 

20 Corners area, the Navajo people, or not only the 

21 Navajo people, but all of the San Juan basic 

22 community, implement stronger enforcement for the 

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1 Navajo Nation to go by. 

2 And if anything, as Sarah White stated 

3 here, shut them down. You know, so that's what 

4 I've got to say. 

5 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you very much. Next 

6 we would like to invite up Kelly Barr and Arlene 

7 Rivera, please. 

8 MS. BARR: Good afternoon. My name is 

9 Kelly Barr and I'm a Senior Director of 

10 Environmental Management and the Deputy Legal 

11 Executive of the Salt River Project Agricultural 

12 Improvement and Power District. 

13 As the operator of the Navajo Generating 

14 Station as well as a participant in both NGS and 

15 the Four Corners Power Plant, SRP welcomes this 

16 opportunity to provide comments on EPA's 

17 supplemental proposal to the carbon pollution 

18 emission guidelines for existing stationary 

19 sources.

20 I would like to open by first expressing 

21 my gratitude for EPA's incredible public outreach 

22 effort on the 111D rule. We sincerely appreciate 

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1 EPA's effort to gather public input on this 

2 really important rule. 

3 SRP supports the general approach that 

4 EPA used to develop carbon dioxide emission 

5 standards for existing fossil fuel fire power 

6 plants located on tribal land. We agree with 

7 EPA's decision to maintain the same analytical 

8 framework that was first used in the June 2014 

9 proposal, and apply the four building blocks in a 

10 manner that's consistent with the proposed state 

11 emission goals. 

12 In addition we are pleased that the 

13 participants in NGS and Four Corners will not be 

14 required to take any additional measures to meet 

15 the prescribed emission goals. We appreciate 

16 EPA's recognition that substantial carbon dioxide 

17 emission reductions have been or will be achieved 

18 at Four Corners and NGS through actions taken to 

19 comply with the regional Haze Rules. We 

20 appreciate that EPA has structured the proposal 

21 to provide credit for those carbon dioxide 

22 reductions.

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1 Although SRP is generally supportive of 

2 the supplemental proposal there are a few areas 

3 that warrant additional consideration. SRP 

4 respectfully requests that EPA reconsider the 

5 application of building blocks 1 and 4. National 

6 studies form the basis for these building blocks. 

7 These assumptions should be corrected to take 

8 into account unit-specific characteristics at NGS 

9 and Four Corners, and the unique considerations 

10 of the Navajo Nation. 

11 Also, SRP encourages EPA to consider a 

12 baseline year other than 2012. 2012 was not a 

13 representative year for the operation of NGS or 

14 Four Corners and the operators are currently 

15 reviewing plant emissions data and will provide 

16 recommendations to EPA in our written comments.

17 Lastly, SRP encourages EPA to clarify who 

18 will receive credit for renewable resources on 

19 tribal lands. SRP believes that the credit for 

20 renewable resource should be a sign to the entity 

21 that is purchasing the output of that resource, 

22 unless an alternative arrangement is specified 

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1 through contract. 

2 The entity could then use the credit 

3 towards the compliance obligations as needed. 

4 Once again, we would like to thank EPA 

5 for its thoughtful consideration of the unique 

6 situation of the Navajo Nation and the generating 

7 facilities on tribal land. SRP appreciates this 

8 opportunity to comment on the supplemental 

9 proposal and will provide written comments that 

10 address these issues in further detail. Thank 

11 you. 

12 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. Arlene.

13 MS. RIVERA: Good afternoon. I'm not 

14 much of a speaker and it took a lot of guts for 

15 me to come out here. I was just sitting back 

16 there listening to all the stories that people 

17 are talking about, and I just cannot sit back and 

18 just listen. I had to say something.

19 One, we were put on Earth to take care of 

20 the land and we're -- the animals are limited in 

21 that they're intellectual, so we have to speak 

22 for the animals as well. And we are above the 

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1 animals. We're not animals.

2 I mean, I was looking at that map that 

3 they put out here and our reservation is -- I was 

4 looking at it and it looks like it's in the shape 

5 of a pig. And I once worked as a security guard 

6 over at both power plants, and when we go like 

7 this to the -- we were constantly dusty. And we 

8 see the silica, no matter how much we dust it. 

9 And that was one of the reasons why I quit my job 

10 because I don't want to inhale it. It's not even 

11 worth it. And we did not come down here to waste 

12 our trip and our time, and I just want to say to 

13 those people that are like in support of the 

14 power plant, what kind of seeds are they sewing? 

15 Are they sewing seeds and the thorns where 

16 they're being choked out?

17 We're being choked out. We're the good 

18 seeds. And that's all I have to say. Those are 

19 just my comments.

20 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you very much. Next 

21 we would like to invite up Mark Lewis and Steven 

22 Etsitty, please. 

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1 MR. LEWIS: May we begin?

2 MR. NEIBLING: Please, Mark.

3 MR. LEWIS: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, 

4 for the record my name is Mark Lewis, and I'm the 

5 elected director representing Maricopa County. 

6 Welcome to my district. I'm one of a number of 

7 elected board members that owns part of the 

8 Navajo Generating Station and we supply water to 

9 4 million people here in Maricopa County. And I 

10 just want to express my gratitude to the tribal 

11 members that are here. Ten percent of the 

12 lighting that's in this room comes from Navajo 

13 coal and the Navajo Generating Station. And if 

14 you took a shower this morning you helped support 

15 the Navajo Generating Station and the Central 

16 Arizona Project, who delivers water to the people 

17 in the farms of Central Arizona. 

18 We're very grateful to be here and to 

19 speak on these rules. I don't have really any 

20 prepared statements and I'll just highlight some 

21 of the issues that I've read through the rules. 

22 One of the main points of contention that I've 

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1 heard with the rules from our advisors is the 

2 timing of all of this. Essentially the interim 

3 goal of 2020 and the final goal of 2030 is just 

4 not attainable. I mean, it's just not realistic.

5 And since I'm the guy that has to write 

6 the check and raise the taxes and raise the water 

7 rates, you need to be concerned about the way 

8 this is going to because we just don't have the 

9 capacity to comply with the challenges that are 

10 in front of us in the next 72 months. That's 

11 just not going to happen. And since I'm the guy 

12 that has to pay the bill you need to be thinking 

13 about that, because the Central Arizona Project 

14 owes the United States 1.6 billion. And we make 

15 a $50 million a year payment to the trust fund 

16 that distributes all these funds for water right 

17 settlements throughout the state.

18 And the original deal we had with the 

19 United States when we created the Central Arizona 

20 Project, was that we were going to be able to 

21 operate the Navajo Generating Station under the 

22 Regional Haze Rules that were originally created 

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1 until 2066. We borrowed money, we made 

2 commitments, we signed long-term contracts with 

3 most of the cities in Central Arizona and the 10 

4 tribes that we serve. 

5 And now that timeline has gotten 

6 shortened in the TWIG agreement and this new set 

7 of rules brings us into compliance in 2030 and 

8 mostly in 2020. And I can just tell you, that is 

9 not going to happen. And we feel slighted that 

10 the United States through their various agencies 

11 has not lived up to the original bargain that we 

12 did. We're grateful for the improvements that 

13 these regulations bring to the tribe and to our 

14 community and we're happy to pay it.

15 It raised water rates on everybody's 

16 houses in this room, in this county, by 11 

17 percent at our June board meeting to pay for the 

18 $1 billion in upgrades to the Navajo 

19 environmental constraints, the coal leases, and 

20 the transmission lines that contain the 

21 components for the Navajo Generating Station that 

22 serves the Central Arizona Project.

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1 We don't have the ability to just switch 

2 fuel sources and go to natural gas. That's not 

3 the deal. The original deal with the United 

4 States is 97 percent of our energy was to come 

5 from the Navajo Generating Station and it was to 

6 be used for the farms and the commitments that we 

7 made to the people of Central Arizona and the 

8 tribal settlements that the United States made 

9 under their fiduciary duty. 

10 And we take that commitment very 

11 seriously. And to have these timing issues 

12 constrain us from what I view -- I'm the most 

13 senior board member. I've been elected and 

14 represent Maricopa County for the past 13 years. 

15 And from my term in office I've seen, it's gone 

16 from 2066 to 2020. And I don't have the 

17 capacity, the bonding capacity, or the rate18 making capacity to write a check for $350 million 

19 in the next 72 months. It's just not going to 

20 happen. 

21 And so those are the constraints that I 

22 take very seriously and the challenges that the 

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1 rate payers and the folks that I represent are 

2 expressing to me. I am grateful for and 

3 appreciative of the EPA's acknowledgement that 

4 there's a special commitment to the tribe and 

5 that you have a fiduciary duty to treat them on a 

6 nation to nation basis, and I support that. And 

7 we have done a lot of outreach on that area, and 

8 we're very grateful to continue that process. 

9 And we have a number of initiatives between the 

10 State of Arizona and the tribe that we're going 

11 to pursue. 

12 And it's been very motivating to have 

13 this vigorous discussion. We're grateful for 

14 your consideration of some of the challenges that 

15 we face as a state with a lot of tribal and 

16 federal interests, and we're grateful for the 

17 time that you have spent here today. Thank you.

18 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. 

19 MR. ETSITTY: (Speaking in native 

20 language.)

21 My name is Steven Etsitty. I'm the 

22 Executive Director of the Navajo Nation 

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1 Environmental Protection Agency. I am here to 

2 present some of the concerns and interests of the 

3 Navajo Nation in my capacity as Executive 

4 Director for the Navajo EPA.

5 Concerning the proposed supplemental 

6 rule, the authority that provides for me to sit 

7 in this chair and speak in this capacity comes 

8 from the Navajo Nation Clean Air Act, which was 

9 enacted in 1995 and amended in 2004, provides the 

10 Executive Director with a set of 

11 responsibilities, including weighing in on issues 

12 that are under the umbrella of the Clean Air Act 

13 and Clean Air Act programs.

14 I want to thank the United States 

15 Environmental Protection Agency for this proposed 

16 supplemental rule and the opportunity to comment 

17 today. We want to say that additional written 

18 comments will be submitted by the Navajo Nation 

19 to U.S. EPA by the December 19th deadline. 

20 Historically environmental rulemaking has 

21 been oriented to the interests of the states and 

22 industry. Environmental regulatory perspectives 

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1 from Indian Country, from the Navajo Nation, are 

2 routinely overlooked. EPA celebrating a 30th 

3 year of having an Indian policy. The 1984 Indian 

4 policy and the 1990 amendments to the Federal 

5 Clean Air Act should prevent perspectives from 

6 Indian Country from being overlooked. 

7 However, U.S. EPA today still faces 

8 challenges to develop rules that work for Indian 

9 Country, including the Navajo Nation. 

10 Regarding the work that we do at Navajo 

11 EPA, I've been in my position for 11 years now. 

12 We've been working extremely hard with U.S. EPA 

13 under a framework of partnership. But it's been 

14 a very tough row convincing EPA that when you go 

15 into rulemaking and development of these 

16 regulations, that you do a good job providing for 

17 the perspectives from the Navajo Nation 

18 Government and the Navajo people. 

19 I want to commend you today for this 

20 public hearing again. It's very welcomed and 

21 it's my hope and my agency's home, and the Navajo 

22 Nation Government's hope that these types of 

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1 forums, either from EPA or other parts of the 

2 federal government, continue as the federal 

3 agencies continue to develop rules and finalize 

4 all kinds of regulations that impact our 

5 homelands and we look forward to inform you of 

6 our perspectives so that these rules eventually 

7 make sense for our homelands and our communities.

8 The proposed supplemental rule is a good 

9 proposal, and we thank you for that. But the 

10 Navajo Nation recommends the following. A 

11 reexamination of the building block approach. 

12 And we appreciate an appropriate application of 

13 building blocks, but only with much better 

14 understanding of the conditions on the Navajo 

15 Nation. We will supply those descriptions in our 

16 written comments.

17 The proposed best system of emissions 

18 reduction, or BSER, is not flexible enough. And 

19 when you combine it with a reexamination of the 

20 building block analysis, our hope is that EPA 

21 would be open to considering the use of other 

22 baseline years, other than 2012 in its analysis 

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1 and eventual revising of the BSER for the Navajo 

2 Nation. 

3 We welcome the opportunity to continue to 

4 speak directly to the U.S. EPA rule makers and 

5 our partners in the U.S. EPA in San Francisco, 

6 Region 9, and the Office of Air and Radiation in 

7 the U.S. EPA Headquarters Offices in Washington, 

8 D.C.

9 We have had communications with you 

10 earlier this year. We submitted a letter on 

11 September 18th in response to the proposed rule 

12 and prior to the issuance of this proposed 

13 supplemental rule. 

14 In that letter we highlighted an issue, 

15 and I'd just like to remind you that we are 

16 requesting, within the proposed rule, that there 

17 be a clarification for the part of that rule that 

18 has created an obstacle for renewable energy 

19 development on the Navajo Nation. Page 34922 of 

20 the proposed rule, not the proposed supplemental 

21 rule, the proposed rule, opens up for comment 

22 whether renewable energy generated on the Navajo 

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1 Nation can be used to meet the goals of the state 

2 111(d) plan. And we think that that needs to be 

3 clarified because right now our experience has 

4 been since this proposed rule was issued this 

5 past June it has stifled renewable energy 

6 development on the Navajo Nation, and we hope 

7 that this can be fixed immediately within this 

8 process. 

9 Thank you very much.

10 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. At this moment 

11 we do not have any more registered speakers of 

12 which I'm aware, so we'll take a brief recess and 

13 come back in session when we have some people 

14 ready to speak. Thank you.

15 (Recess from 3:02 p.m. until 3:20 p.m.)

16 MR. NEIBLING: Good afternoon again, 

17 ladies and gentlemen. We have somebody who is 

18 looking to speak and so to keep her from waiting 

19 too much longer, we'll reconvene.

20 A couple of housekeeping items. We found 

21 a cell phone and a sandwich that are sitting at 

22 the registration desk if you want to talk to 

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1 anyone or if you feel hungry please go try to 

2 claim them. And we still have some open slots so 

3 if you are here and would like to speak and 

4 haven't yet had the chance to, please check in at 

5 the desk and we will accommodate you.

6 With that I would like to invite up Nancy 

7 Nesky. 

8 MS. NESKY: Can you hear me okay?

9 MR. NEIBLING: I think so.

10 MS. NESKY: My name is Nancy Nesky, it's 

11 N-E-S-K-Y. 

12 Arizona Public Service Company, APS, 

13 appreciates the U.S. Environmental Protection 

14 Agency holding a public hearing in Phoenix, 

15 Arizona to allow APS the opportunity to provide 

16 comments on the proposed supplemental rule, 

17 establishing carbon pollution emission guidelines 

18 for existing electric generating units, or EGUs

19 in Indian Country.

20 As one of the Southwest's largest in 

21 electric utilities, APS operates in a manner that 

22 is protective of the environment and is committed 

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1 to environmental stewardship and sustainable 

2 operations. 

3 APS operates a generation fleet 

4 consisting of coal fired, gas fired, and nuclear 

5 units to serve the needs of over 1 million APS 

6 customers. APS also has an increasing portfolio 

7 of renewable energy and manages a robust behind 

8 the meter energy efficiency program. 

9 APS owns and operates the Four Corners 

10 Power Plant and owns a portion of the Navajo 

11 Generating Station, both of which are located on 

12 the Navajo Nation and subject to the proposed 

13 supplemental rule.

14 APS further appreciates EPA's extensive 

15 public outreach since issuing the supplemental 

16 proposal, which included meeting with and seeking 

17 input from the affected utilities and the Navajo 

18 Nation. 

19 In addition to meeting with EPA regarding 

20 the proposed supplemental rule, APS met with 

21 representatives from Navajo Nation and the Salt 

22 River Project, operator of the Navajo Generating 

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1 Station, the only other power plant located on 

2 the Navajo Nation, in a cooperative effort to 

3 identify issues and seek a compliant solution 

4 that will mutually benefit all parties.

5 Based on all these discussions and 

6 analysis APS offers the following comments to EPA 

7 regarding the proposed supplemental rule.

8 EPA's proposed supplemental rule contains 

9 several elements that are critical to the 

10 successful reduction of carbon emissions. 

11 Accordingly these elements should remain in the 

12 final rule. Specifically APS supports EPA's 

13 recognition that APS's closure of three units at 

14 the Four Corners Power Plant and SRP's expected 

15 shutdown and curtailment of generation at the 

16 Navajo Generating Station by 2019 represent 

17 approximately a 30 percent reduction of total 

18 2012 carbon emissions on the Navajo Nation. 

19 APS further supports the ability to 

20 convert the Navajo Nation rate based goal to a 

21 mass based goal in the ability of the Navajo 

22 Nation to establish a multi-jurisdictional 

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1 agreement with states to allow trading of 

2 emission credits.

3 APS believes that these elements are 

4 vital to successful compliance with the final 

5 rule, and will allow Navajo Nation the 

6 flexibility it is seeking.

7 In setting the carbon emission rate goals 

8 for the Navajo Nation EPA used the same four 

9 building block methodology it used to set the 

10 state-specific goals. This methodology used 2012 

11 as the emissions baseline year and in which to 

12 apply specific criteria. However APS does not 

13 support using 2012 as the baseline year for 

14 studying the future emission rate goals for the 

15 Navajo Nation because 2012 was not representative 

16 of future unit operations at the Four Corners 

17 facility. In general, 2012 is a poor choice to 

18 use as a baseline year for coal fired power 

19 plants, including Four Corners because the 

20 depressed price of natural gas during 2012 caused 

21 lower than normal dispatch of many coal fired 

22 units. 

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1 Conversely, as natural gas prices have 

2 subsequently risen utilities have increased the 

3 dispatch of coal-fired units. Additionally, 

4 forced outages, which were 30 percent higher at 

5 Four Corners in 2012 than the average value at 

6 Four Corners since 2005, are out of control of 

7 unit operators and should be considered when 

8 establishing a representative baseline year.

9 APS recommends that EPA not use 2012 as 

10 the baseline year and allow a much longer look 

11 back period to at least 2005 in order to 

12 establish a more representative baseline year. 

13 APS supports the use of heat rate efficiency 

14 improvement projects at existing coal fired EGUs 

15 as a means of reducing carbon emission rates. 

16 Heat rate efficiency improvement projects 

17 will achieve lower carbon emission rates and are 

18 often cost justified. In fact such actions are 

19 business as usual for electric utilities, as 

20 utilities have been implementing unit efficiency 

21 improvement projects for decades. 

22 APS agrees with EPA that incorporation of 

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1 best operational and maintenance practices may 

2 achieve efficiency improvement at some coal fired 

3 EGUs, however the Four Corners Power Plant 

4 already employs the industry's best operating and 

5 maintenance practices, and therefore there is 

6 little to no room for additional efficiency gains 

7 in this area. There is no certainty that even 

8 the 2 percent gain proposed by EPA can be 

9 achieved. 

10 APS determined that many of the equipment 

11 upgrades proposed by EPA in the proposed 

12 supplemental rule have already been implemented 

13 at Four Corners. Although APS did identify some 

14 equipment upgrades that could be implemented on 

15 the Four Corners units to achieve an improved 

16 heat rate, these minor improvements must be 

17 considered in light of the degradation in 

18 efficiency that will result from the parasitic 

19 load of pollution control projects required to 

20 comply with the Regional Haze Rule, such as lack 

21 of catalytic reduction controls and a stack 

22 liner. This parasitic load will negatively 

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1 impact unit heat rate and result in a maximum 

2 potential efficiency improvement between 0.7 

3 percent and 1.6 percent. 

4 Heat rate degradation due to future 

5 compliance requirements must be accounted for in

6 addition to any heat rate improvement 

7 achievements. Accordingly each coal-fired unit 

8 should be assessed considering the actual heat 

9 rate improvement projects that can be completed. 

10 In the proposed supplemental rule EPA 

11 correctly concluded that building block 2 is not 

12 applicable on the Navajo Nation because there are 

13 no natural gas complying cycle units on the 

14 Navajo Nation for redispatch to occur. However, 

15 EPA has discussed additional approaches to 

16 building block 2 in the October 30th, 2014 notice 

17 of data availability. One such approach includes 

18 the adoption of the minimum level of generation 

19 shift concept.

20 This concept presents numerous 

21 achievability standards if applied to the Navajo 

22 Nation. EPA should not expand the type of 

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1 natural gas facilities in its determination of 

2 the best system of emission reduction to include 

3 coal firing with natural gas. APS opposes the 

4 inclusion of coal firing natural gas at existing 

5 coal fire plants as part of building block 2 

6 because of the technical obstacles and cost

7 considerations that coal firing would present at 

8 the Four Corners Power Plant.

9 The Four Corners units are currently 

10 equipped with the ability to combust a small 

11 amount of natural gas for start-up operations and 

12 early flame stabilization. However, the amount 

13 of heat input from natural gas combustion is 

14 limited to a small fraction of the total heat 

15 input to the units. An enormous capital 

16 investment to modify the boilers and increase the 

17 natural gas supply infrastructure which would 

18 also take numerous years to complete, would be 

19 necessary to achieve a material reduction in 

20 carbon emissions from coal firing natural gas.

21 Such actions simply cannot be 

22 rationalized or cost justified. Once again APS 

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1 would like to thank EPA for the opportunity to 

2 provide comments on the important regulatory 

3 action and for EPA's consideration of the 

4 comments presented by APS. Thank you.

5 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you.

6 MS. NESKY: And a copy of the comments 

7 will be provided to the front desk.

8 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. We appreciate 

9 that. 

10 At this time I believe we once again have 

11 nobody waiting to speak so we will take another 

12 recess until such time as we have speakers ready. 

13 Thank you.

14 (Recess from 3:29 p.m. until 4:59 p.m.)

15 MR. NEIBLING: Thank you. At this point, 

16 having no other speakers, we will adjourn the 

17 afternoon session. This hearing will resume at 

18 6:00 p.m. local time in this same room, so please 

19 enjoy some dinner and we'll see you in a little 

20 bit. Thank you.

21 (Dinner recess from 4:59 p.m. until 6:04 

22 p.m.)

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1 MR. GREEN: This is Greg Green. I just 

2 wanted to open the hearing back up after the 

3 dinner break. There's nobody here to testify so 

4 we're going to put it into recess and then if 

5 somebody else shows up we'll open it back up 

6 again. Good enough? 

7 (Recess from 6:04 p.m. until 7:59 p.m.)

8 MR. GREEN: This is Greg Green. I'm the 

9 director of the Outreach and Information 

10 Division. The hearing has been in recess. I'm 

11 going to open it back up. It's 8:00 and we have 

12 no one here to testify so this hearing is 

13 formally closed. Thank you.

14 (Whereupon, at 7:59 p.m., the hearing 

15 concluded.) 

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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