Note: The output shown below is from the

Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the subcommittee meeting and is unedited. T he CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real

- time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting. U.S. Access Board Thursday, April 1 0 , 2014 Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee Communications Subcommittee Meeting

>> Terry Pacheco: C an you come back to the table so we can get done in a little while? O kay. I s everybody ready to get into our what I believe is our last session of the day? F irst thing I would like to do, actually first piece of housekeeping that's very important. A nyone who does asking for the floor please identify yourself. O ur captioner would extremely be appreciative

-- would be extremely appreciative if we do that. A nd okay so this is the sub

-- the communications subcommittee meeting. We are hoping to make this pretty brief. B ut we do want to give you an update on what we have been doing. A nda little bit more of

-- of where we are hope to go go over

the next

-- my goal is to set us a

-- agenda for at least part of our agenda for the next ro ughly three months. I , unfortunately, was not able to make last week's meeting. But Jim did so in just a minute I am going to ask him to give us a brief report and anybody else that was on the call is more than welcome to add into it. O ne of the things that I would like to first of all do is I would like to thank the Access Board staff

-- you know, my mother said never start thanking peep in public you are going to forget
someone. I f I do I apologize I am particularly

-- this committee has had an awful lot of

-- received a bought lot of benefit from Jim Pecht, Paul Beatty and Marsha Mazz. I would like to thank them and I would like to thank everyone who worked on this committee, Blair Slaughter, and Frank Maldari has done yeoman's work getting us
access ible photos of different types of cars, of different types of signage a few other people have done similar things. A nd I just want to extend our appreciation as a committee to everyone who has done something for us. We have learned a lot from one another

. We have had a learning experiences that I don't think quite honestly we would have had in any other type of environment. I want to thank you for

-- thank you all for that. W ith that I willpass it over to Jim he is going to give us an update of

where we are coming from. >> JIM PECHT: Thank you Terry this is Jim Pecht. I know there is some folks in here that hasn't participated in the previously known as signage committee and the communications committee let me sort of give you a general overview. T he committee has looked at and discussed briefly some of the requirements in the building side as far as signage is concerned. We went out and did homework and came back with a whole list of different signs that were in the environment and there was a huge list that we sort of compiled and put together within sort of took that list and tried to categorize the different types of signs out there into categories and have since been working on try to go get the categories and say for this category, what type of requirement should apply. S hould the sign be both tactile and visual? S hould it be visual only? S hould it be an audible sign? I f audible sign does it need to have visibles to go with it obviously. And there was discussion about when you do do audible s tuff it has to be unduck shun loop applied to it. And we talked in terms of started briefly to talk about certain signs that may or may not be required to be in message signs that would apply to having the audiblecome into it in effect. A nd we have been working towards

that goal. Last committee meeting we sort of got a couple of the categories knocked out we decided employee only signs wouldn't have

-- be required to have any requirement. A nd we talked about menus and directories on rail vehicles. A nd what should apply to them. We sort of came up with sort of a just pre

- idea of at least one menu in whatever car that menus are provided had to be within the visual sign requirement if they were provided in signs. T here was discussion about could they
ma ke could the subcommittee make recommendations outside of our purview to DOT with regards to applies you know doing things library web

- based menus or Braille menus that were paper menus and handed out. C ertainly that is within the committee's per view to make those recommendations as far as the guidelines are concerned it wouldn't be something that we could do those are movable furniture and equipment not covered by the guidelines. T here was a discussion that started and continue it in one of our next mee tings about well this whole tying visual signs provided moveable should there be audible with it when audible is provided should visual signs go with it. We will be continuing that I am sure. So, with that I am going to turn it back over to Terry andhow she wants to proceed with her the agenda. >> Terry: D oes anyone else have anything they want to add in of something else anything that we haven't covered that we dealt with in the past anybody else? >> JIM PECHT: One more thing from my point Paul said th e next meeting of this subcommittee is Thursday May 1 from 1 to 3 so

-- >> It's going to be the May day meeting. H opefully not that kind of may day. I was thinking more of pole and flowers. (LAUGHTER) >> Hold on a second. >> This is Andrew. I would like interactive visual signs to the agenda. I would like to discuss that o that for deaf and hard of hearing people who ride the rail? >> Terry: I 'm sorry, I didn't hear you. W hat did you say something about the agenda. H old on a second I need

-- Inte ractive visual signs. I nteresting idea. Let me think through the difference between moving and interactive. B ut that's

-- that is a very interesting idea. Let me write a note because I will forget it if I don't.
>> Terry there is Marsha Mazz could I as k Andrew to further explain what you means by interactive visual signsas opposed to variable message signs which are moving >> This is Andrew. I mean signs that do not change and make emergency alerts and explain what the announcement is saying or the st op signs that change. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Okay. T hat's essentially the same thing as a variable message sign. >> Andrew: O kay.
>> Terry: I t is a variable message sign I was thinking along the lines of something that maybe not be available or may not be wide ly available today but something that may be more interactive as well. I think you have hit a very good

-- like a touch pad type signage. Something

-- I am not sure but I think it's something well worth looking into. I am going to bring up an issue I
me ntioned it to a couple of people today. A nd I would like to get people's feedback on it. A nd that is that I think what is incredibly important for this committee is for us to be making some very well informed and well educated decisions. I think that we all bring our own levels of expertise our own areas of expertise to the table. B ut I don't think there is anyone in this room who would disagree with me in the fact that none of us know everything about every issue. S o, what I am thinking is over the ne xt two to three months, what if we did a littlebit of a change of our agenda. A nd put in some

presentations on issues that we have not really dealt with in these committee

-- in these meetings of the committee of the whole. I f we did some, for instance, on topics

-- I have talked to two different people here today who have gotten different answers on types of loops. I know that there, as one topic. I know that there is a lot more data and a lot more information available as far as low vision, low visio n and blindness are concerned, when it comes to signage. T hen there was available back at the time of the ADA or the ADAAG. T here is just a lot more information that a lot of us would like to share. A nd that a lot of us would like to learn about. I am thinking that we could do one or two limited to 30

- minute presentation and focus on that topic for that meeting. F or the next couple of months. O r at least for major portion of that meeting. I am thinking somebody a couple of months ago, for instance, h ad brought up the idea of talking signs. H ow many people actually know what different kinds of signage are available? S omebody called me last week asked me what I know about laserren graving additions to laser engraving machines that will do Braille I sa id I haven't got a clue in the world. B ut these are all topics that I don't think any of us are true

-- know enough about to bemaking really good informed decisions. S o I am thinking

of trying to get some real topics put together for us to do over the n ext few months sore maybe 30 minutes of each of our conference calls. I s anybody have any
-- aidly

-- I'd like to hear what you think about that idea. S o we know what kind of things are really out there when we are trying to come up with decisions here.
>> Hi, this is Janice Schacter Lintz, I was actually, to expand on what you are saying, I would love to do a presentation on induction loops in Braille around the world and legislation that I am aware of. I also explain what induction loops are, the diffe rence in sound, and how they are used. M aybe with a quickie presentation on how they are used in other areas outside of the rail so people can see this is not just a rail issue. B ecause I think the way that I am learning about trains and quickly learning about all of the different trains and understanding the systems I think there are a lot of people in the room that who do not have the same expertise on hearing loss. A nd I would like to share my expertise on hearing loss with people who are more experts in the rail system. S o, I don't know if that's within our scope or a Paul Beatty issue or Chris issue I offer my services. >> Terry: T hank you, thank you we will absolutelyadd it to the list. I am thinking something like this,

something like what you are suggesting perhaps a company coming in about loops that they sell something on that idea. T hat we could we could at least learn more about them so we are on the same page on making these the very difficult decisions that we are coming up with absolute ly Dennis? >> Dennis Cannon: Yes, one of the

-- this is a rail vehicle access advisory committee. S o we are writing ultimately we are making recommendations for all kinds of rail vehicles we have been concentrating on inter

- city Amtrak which is a differe nt breed than something like a Metrorail. B ack when we were riding

-- writing the guidelines from people who were familiar with inductive loops, they

-- we were told that they would not work on a rapid rail car. A nd the reason had to do with the fact that the engines are right

-- the electric motors essentially are right under the floor and that they would simply disrupt any kind of inductive loop. S o, if you give a presentation could you address that specific issue? >> Janice: I agree with Terry. I th ink the presentation should be divided by two. I can do the access part of it, and show you around the world I am not an engineer would never pretend to be there should besomeone who is from induction loop company I could

ascertain who is the best person doing rail whether they come to the United States, because they are international. I think if I do the overview and what is going on around the world. A nd then they can do the parted on the actual installation. Y ou do not want me doing the installation part just trust me based on my questions on rails you got the idea. (LAUGHTER) >> Yes. D own at the end. >> This is David. I lost my train of thought with everybody going back and forth I appreciate someone recognizing now I have my turn that's all I can say, thank you. (LAUGHTER) >> I lost my train of thought. (LAUGHTER) >> Terry: T hat's what happens when you have a blind person trying to recognize a hard

- of

- hearing person.
>> Oh, right right right. E xcuse me, that is

-- >> I'm sorry, I did n't see you down there. (LAUGHTER) >> I am here waving my hand down here everyone should be responsible as well.>> This is Frank. I want to follow up with what Dennis

was saying with interference with hearing loops we had done investigation there is a concern with hearing loops over AC traction motors EMI. I t's

-- it's not really easy to understand what is going on but there is electromagnetic fields around the motors it creates a problem for the hearing loops. T hey are really, if you look around in this country the only place that's actually trying to use hearing loops is Barth. O riginally they to my knowledge they were going to put them in every car have 100% coverage they came back with a bunch of problems they are trying to work through them To my understanding that has not been fully addressed yet. I t's something at least at Barth they are working on there is not really a solution. M y understanding, also, with respect to hearing loops there is two different kinds active and passive. T he Bart h system they are trying to incorporate is active that works directly

-- of the PA. There is also alternatives to that. T here is a passive system which picks up noise from the environment around the receiver not just what is enunciated on the PA. T hat
s ystem is a little less fraught with EMI concerns it's a little bit more localized. A nd potentially could work better in a rail environment. S o, that's, you know two options, oneof them with the active system with known problems.

And another one with th e passive system with

-- which may be better suited for this environment.
>> This is Janice Schacter to respond to what he is saying. >> Bob remembered his.
>> Yes, I do remember what I was going to say earlier. I am interested in the meetings because of the work that I do. G lobal

-- sorry globe. T hey are producing a new project I forgot the Globe Transit we are trying to keep track of the U.S. system and now they are planning to include rail, light rail, and what I mean by that is where the trains are r un with the PS

-- I'm sorry, sorry, interpreter
error. Global was using our GPS. G oogle using GPS. We can put it into the train on the, on to the train so we can figure out where we are. A nd we can get ready with with ready within an app. You could put it on a website. A nd maybe that could be something in the future like a monitor that could be used within a monitor we could have that on a train so we can know where we are on a train. So, I would like that to be added to the agenda. S o that maybe we can use more information with Google. >> Thank you, David.>> We are talking about putting

-- >> This is Lise. I asked if he meant it was a mobile app or could it be a sign in the car itself. D avid was saying basically it could be both either or whatever you wanted to design that's interesting too. >> ED HOFF: Ed Hoff. I f we are still talking about inductive loops or branching off to other ways to get information out there I think we should close the pardon the pun loop on inductive loops say we should e ntertain a presentation both on the access and engineering issues perhaps potential issues with inductive loops. B ecause we should talk about all of the different types of inputs that we want to provide information on. S o I think Terry you asked at the b eginning what type of presentations we might want to entertain one would be inductive loops one David raised now is with smartphone apps or other types of devices with different types of apps perhaps somebody could give a presentation on that. I t's import ant we find alternative means to provide information. D ifferent outputs, we know we have audible announcements we know we are going to require textural announcements we should look to find other ways to provide signs that are very wordy. T here is not goi ng to be very many way toss provide the static signs with a lot of words and make themlarge enough to be visually understandable unless we have

some other means of providing that information either audibly or by some other means. I think we should close the loop on that thank you.
>> Terry: I think you make an excellent point to that end>> Janice: O ne more thing before you close on that topic Terry when you have a chance, sorry, I knew you couldn't see me. I t sounded like you were ending the conversat ion on it.
>> No.
>> Sorry. D idn't mean to interrupt. >> Go ahead. >> I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just want to make sure that there is an understanding that loops are installed on trains in Australia, in Ireland, in England it's mandated by law in Spain. A nd this is nothing personal against Frank the chairman of the MTA made it clear he does not want to do it he is only doing it when it's regulated when the MTA's position is it isn't be done sus suspect they don't want to have it imposed nothing pe rsonal against Frank, he wasn't part of the meeting Tom Pendergast was, clearly he will only do it if it was regulated. H e told me it's not regulated. We need to have discussion likeEdward said, one is access, what is being done around the

world, second engineering this is the first I have heard about active and passive. I have been doing this 13 years I never heard the term but like I sedentary I don't know everything but I think I would definitely heard this somewhere in 13 years. >> Terry: Well, that's kind of where I was just going. And that is as far as all of this is concerned you know how we are doing homework assignments. W hat I would very, very much like to see happen and appreciate from any of you that have any ideas, would you please E

- mail me with the name or contact information or your willingness to set up something, anything specific, of who might be a good person to get in touch with from XYZ company for a presentation. S o that we can put a

-- you know, I don't wanted to say a database , I would like to have that many responses. B ut so that we can put something together and we can put it out to everyone for their opinion. Would you please send any thought

-- any ideas that you may have on this or any contacts on it to me personally and I will put a list together for

-- to go on

-- to come to the Access Board and for us to get in touch with. A nyone that hasn't heard this at least 5 times from me already my E

- mail address is: T ERRYPACH @ VERIZON.NET. I wouldlike to started getting us some presenters for the May,

June, July meetings at least. By that point, we really need to start absolutely getting into the far more technical issues we have we have other issues we haven't talked about like guide dog relief areas. We have an awful lot to do we have got to get some really good information under our belts so we can make some very good informed decisions. A nyone that can come up with someone they would like us to hear from please E

- mail it to me again TERRYPACH @ Verison.NET >> I will as k Jim to work as sergeant in arms because he can see better than I anyone have anything anything else they want to bring up. H ut hut hi this is more of a question of an issue. I t came up in other committees. I n rural areas where you have stops that main ly consist only of slab of concrete or you know something else, without any particular service available, there is very often a lack of communication for a user or the passenger to know, for instance, if when the train is arriving if there is a delay. Any kind of communication that is certainly not available in the what we usually get in the train station or are we assuming that everybody has a computer gets web access or has the mobile phone. O r is this an issue that somebody has come across here as well

.>> This is Jim. F irst of all, that's a station side issue not

within our purview. > > Uwe Rutenberg: O kay. >> JIM PECHT: I think if we are going to talk about those things talk about the station shop announcements and route destination announcements within the trains that's what we are going to talk about. A s far as I know, you have got spit of concrete and a parking lot and that's it. A nd there is nothing out there that's not something we are going to be able to address with this committee. >> Terry, this is Marsha Mazz. U we makes a good point. I n rural areas there may not be the ability to get a signal if you are going to consider anything that depends on use of the web for example o r other kinds of technology cell technology where you have to have a signal. S o, you are not going to get a signal beneath the City of Baltimore. You are not going to get a signal out in the desert. T here is a lot of places you are not going to get a si gnal. >> Terry: G ood point. >> Mr. Slaughter. >> This is Blair Slaughter, from Amtrak. F or audible themes, the good old fashioned telephone works at least for Amtrak to call even our automated folks to find outwhat the status is of the train. B ut if yo u are arriving at a

station, and there is visual issues then, yeah, that's obviously a much different situation right there at the station. I have seen places where we have had the next station down the line that was occupied live station actually called, made announcements for the next station unstaffed as if there was someone in the building. B ut they, and they knew the train left them so they would make that announcement the train would be there in 10 minutes. A nd I think that you could actually call that station as well. B ut, yeah, there are those places where there is nothing out there. >> JIM PECHT: I agree. I ride the Metro. A nd my phone works at the station not in the tunnel. At the station not in the tunnel. I t's kind of hard to have a
conve rsation when you are only in the station for like you know a minute. (LAUGHTER) >> Fast call. >> Terry: T he other issue about those as well. I s that there are many, many stations where there is a sign that says, like with the Metro, like on the what' s that one down in South Florida the rail where there is no staff, but it may say the train is coming in 22 minutes. A nd if youcan't see that sign you have no idea. A nd you know,

unless you do use a telephone type situation and like Marsha and Jim like we have all just said it's oftentimes it's not available that way. >> ED HOFF: This is Ed Hoff too. D ennis' earlier point regarding when we

-- our discussions primarily about inner

- city rail we should obviously consider light rail on this committee with c ommunications and light rail is required to make station announcements when it's in the station. I f there is

-- I use the term I forget the regulatory terms let's say if the train pulling into the station if it's not the same train every time. I f you have an express train that goes through there perhaps.
>> Destination (inaudible) >> ED HOFF: I didn't catch the last word. >> Destination announcements. >> ED HOFF: If every train that pulls into the station the same train you don't need to make an announcem ent if they go some place different go to different stops you need to identify the train. L ight rail vehicles if they don't have station

- borne announcements telling you that in New Jersey Transit we have external speakers on the light rail vehicles that m ake the announcements a lot of our facilities we don't have a PA system. S o, I don't know if itwould translate necessarily on to commuter rail or to

inner

- city rail. I n those situations, as Uwe was saying in rural areas where there is no PA systems it would be beneficial, I don't know if necessarily fits to inner

- city rail but if the inner city rail itself which has a crew and make announcements when they hit the platform at least then you are able to identify what train it is. I don't know if we need m ore in commuter rail or other places. >> CLIFF PEREZ: I mentioned this before I have to keep reiterating this, by the way in terms of the speaker on the outside, I don't really understand why it couldn't work on any train maybe maybe that was the issue wit h buses there was no speaker on the outside if you are blind, standing out waiting for a bus you had no idea what bus it was. I don't know why this could be done with every single train. Takes care where they don't have somebody whatever the issue may be

. T he other issue I raised the issue last time about knowing where the heck you were

-- you were on the

-- when you are on the train and where you are going. The person from New York City I haven't hidden the subway in a long time claims there are announ cements are clear I can say riding the Metro which I did that is not clear whatsoever. I believe that we need to work in an automated system people themselves are extremelyunreliable. A nd can't be trusted to be making the

announcements that would seem s o simple to do. T hey can't

-- they don't know how to use a microphone it's too close or too far and all kinds of issues that needs to be automated and everyone needs to have that every train everything that moves so people know where the heck, they are go ing so I don't have to keep asking people all of the time what station are we at. >> ED HOFF: Ed Hoff again. W holeheartedly agree, it's been recognized on bus the proposed regs to be adopted for bus requires automated announcements on buses for the very m any reasons that cliff recited. A nd whether it's required for not, I think a lot of commuter railroads recognize that fact and are already moving toward automated announcements it's easier to do on the railroad fewer stops they don't change too often so n ot too much of a recording. B ut so it should be easier to do. T he only difference being what I mentioned before the external speakers may not be necessary given the way commuter rail and inner

- city rail operate given they have crews that announce when th ey step off it's not a bad addition I don't know it's necessary when compared to light rail or bus where you

-- you rely heavy on the announcement to know what bus it is light rail where it's going to assure youget on the right vehicle. >> Frank Maldari: Following what Ed said automated announcement it's a technology that does exist we use it on the new equipment even though not regulated on Long Island. I t's the smart thing to do if you can depending on your situation. Part of the reason is just I forg ot what the guy said just before me not everybody knows how to use a mic as I can attest here. (LAUGHTER) >> Frank Maldari: N ot everybody speaks clear, perfect English so having a recorded announcement for automate particular

-- automatic stakes make sense it can be done reliably. I know when I am waiting for a train and it's busy I like to see the sign and I like to hear it. O ne of the side effects of the system that we have now which has external speakers external signs that show the same informati on so that everybody can understand where the train is going, is that going through neighborhoods in some areas at 2 o'clock in the morning we started to get a lot of complaints about the noise coming from the cars announcingsing the next station in the st ations. S o, you have to recognize that in some certain instances, requiring external speakers to be activated could be a little bit problematic in some of the areas.>> JIM PECHT: Down at the end of the table Bob,

David. >> This is David. Again, I had a question for you, Ed. You are working with the Long Island Railroad. >> New Jersey Transit. >> Okay. F ine. I 'm sorry. O h, okay. I am sorry. I have a comment for both of you then. M y mistake. I am curious about the train status, how reliable is your train status for arrival for each station? D o you use GPS? Do you use some kind of computer that's based on some other signal? O r what do you guys use in your system.
>> Frank Maldari: T he on board question uses GPS and dead reckoning. W here you don't have GPS coverage it counts the distance to make sure you get to Penn Station it knows you have there

-- you are there. O n the trains it's reliable I know we have information signs on the platforms that are keying off of certain points along the right of way waiting to see when the train goes by. You can't tell when the train stops in between two points of interest but when it's passing each point you know it's pasted the point whether it's 5 minutes late or early it knows that distinction. T he informat ion is fairly reliable. It does

-- you do count on the train operator putting in the right station assignments, and the right station stopsto know when the next one is. H e has to actually turn on

the system so you know there is some operator involvement and the potential for some systems to not work in addition to mechanical breakdowns. B ut overall it's fairly reliable. >> ED HOFF: I don't want to say normally but it's pretty easy to give status when things are on the schedule. We are pretty liberal wi th the term. I t's only

-- it's only when things go wrong that we have difficulty getting the information and determining how long the delay will be. For that I will redirect the question to Blair because the reason why we are delayed is something happene d in northeast corridor. (LAUGHTER) >> ED HOFF: They threw us off kilter. We have to recover some how. (LAUGHTER) >> Okay. F ollow

- up question on that then. I do

-- I will confirm with the northeast corridor problem we experience that too. (LAUGHTER) >> David: B ut my problem is really is that we have information in the system

-- we have passenger information that displays in the station for the status forthe people who are waiting for a train to arrive. A nd that

displays if it's on ti me or if it's delayed. I f it's going to be late for 10 minutes or what not. B ut sometimes I am looking at that display and it says that it's coming but it's already arrived really. S o, our system is really not just on GPS and that's one of the struggles that we experience. We are trying to figure out how to solve that problem with the new display or with new technology. A nd it's not really just the deaf community, it's really everyone because everyone wants to

-- everyone wants to know when the train i s going to arrive and when it's going to leave. I f it's going to be an 8

- hour delay people want to know. I t's happened. T rust me, it's happened. M y point that I am trying to ask from you, if you have anything that's based GPS or not based with GPS.
>> ED HOFF: This is Ed Hoff again. I think I am Frank and I are similar how our systems operate that there are struggles with the systems that we have. T hat there are block spots where there is no communication but based upon speed of train and less communi cation you have an idea where the train is and what is going on. I t's only when

-- our delays are not significant until something significant happens. S o, when that happens, we don't usually

-- our immediate information is usually not thatreliable. I f we have an hour delay we don't know we have

an hour delay so we determine how long the train stopped, how long it's going to get fixed or another train to get by it. T he 5

- minute delay is not an issue, it's the long delay that's an issue that we really st ruggle with. I s that true, Frank? >> Frank Maldari: Yes. I ride the train too, and I want to know if I am going to be sitting there for an hour or 5 minutes just like everybody else. T he reality of it is you just don't know. Y ou try to give out as muc h information as you can, and you

-- you know, you almost err to the point you give out too much information it's misinformation and people get more mad. S o, you have to walk a fine line between giving out the most accurate up to date information that you can and it's not always that accurate because you don't know how bad it is. We have incidents at gate crossings it could take an hour or five hours you have no idea how long it's going to steak for that situation to be resolved and the trains resumed. I share the same anxiety knowing when my train is going to leave. You try to give out the best information you can. The automated identification systems that we are using now overall I think are really good. T hey address a lot of the issues. W here am I going. W hat station is this.They do it fairly reliably. U sing the same GPS to help

indicate when the trains are coming into the station at the stations they know a little bit better when the next train is coming. B ut as far as this group goes, sounds like to me automate particular station identification system is kind of what we are working towards requiring. I n other words, you want an automated announcement of the station and the next station and that sort of thing is possible. I t's done, it costs some amount of money. B ut it's not something that hasn't been used in service. We use it it works fairly reliably. I think that's something that we can add to the list of requirements that we want to put on. >> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. Y ou know, the Amtrak system is sometimes fortunately sometimes not mixes into a little bit into the commuter world and into the long distance world. C ommunications with fixed messages station stops and things like that are one thing but where we run over nigh t trains as an example, we may be coming >> A station and we have a prohibition on making audible announcements after a certain amount of time in those trains that are attendants to know they keep a list of where everyone is going to go get the people and make sure they get off the train in the right place. We are notwaking up everyone in the sleeping hours. O n the other

hand, we have trains that operate day trains they are not that far away from Long Island or Jersey Transit and those kinds of messages make a lot of sense. O ne of the things that I remember from studying mass transportation years ago was that one of the things that deters people from mass transportation is fear of the unknown or not being able to get information or not being able once th ey are in the system to get where they want to go and end up somewhere they don't want to go and not be able to get back. S o, it makes a lot of sense from not only a right thing to do but even from a business standpoint if we can present our systems so th at people are less afraid of them, we get more people out of their cars on on to mass transit where it's better anyway. >> ED HOFF: This is Ed Hoff again. I wholeheartedly agree with Blair. We have three light rail systems Camden to Trenton, one from Bayonne through Jersey City into Hoboken and one in almost wholly contained within the City of Newark. We have requirements to blow horns when crossing at gray crossings these are requirements not something you choose to turn off in some cases. Some things you can choose to turn off these you cannot. These are safety related. B ut to Blair's point, you don'twant somebody getting on the wrong train so you have to

make an accommodation in some manner. T here are also a lot of speaker systems out there are se lf limiting in that they recognize ambient noise they are volume adjusting. I don't know that the technology is perfect. B ut if it's not you perhaps could make an accommodation where the announcement would be louder during the day and not so loud at cert ain other times. O f course we have a habitual complainer in one area of Jersey City he works night shift tries to sleep 2 o'clock in the afternoon make an announcement Essex street he has his window open. We can't help that. Y ou have to make the announc ement botch the ambient note, nobody told you to build the condominium close to the railroad we were there first. So, you know, these are defensible in certain areas as long as you take

-- you are reasonable if your approach, and you understand the need i n the case of blowing the horn at rail crossings it's safety related concern and secondly you have a requirement to make announcement when trains go different places. >> JIM PECHT: I know Mr. Weisman has a question. We are about at 5 to 5, we are schedule d to quit at 5. We have the flexibility to go a little longer, if you want to unless I have asked. We have the capability to

-- wait, wedon't. >> This is David. T he interpreters can't stay past 5 o'clock. >> JIM PECHT: All right. T hat answers that que stion. Mr. Weisman, quick. >> JIM WEISMAN: I will forgo my question.
>> There you go Jim, you are the man. >> JIM PECHT: I want to make a recommendation as far as presentations are concerned. I f we can find somebody with expertise to do it, I know one of the big things that we have been talking about is when you do visible you do audible when you do audible you do visible. You get into two different types of announcements you have static announcements we have been talking about here with a station Metro center, easy. D oable. W hat's more difficult is dynamic announcements where you have something that is not canned, it's done instantaneously spur of the moment how can that be or is it possible

-- I know it's doable but doable with difficulty to translate that into visual when you are doing

-- again, I don't know

-- if there is somebody out there to recommend somebody to talk to us about that I think that would be a good subject. >> Frank Maldari: I t's a good question Jim, the CART system, you have somebo dy doing error correction.Outside of that, because I guess the technical difficulty has

to do with recognizing someone's speech because it's inconsistent when they get on do emergency announcements it's hard to do. I think from my understanding of where the industry is, your best bet is probably to have a couple of canned announcements of standard types of delays that you could put on the visual messaging system. We do

-- you do have opportunity to send a signal out to a specific car believe it or not i t's relatively hard to make it sure

-- make sure you get it to the right car not the wrong car. S o, in the transit industry, you don't want to do something unless you can do it reliably. I f you can't do it reliably you are better off not doing it at all because you create more confusion that way. F rom the perspective of where we are going in that regard I think the best thing that we can do is give some flexibility in emergency announcements such that you know, you could have canned announcements but the exact detail I don't think should be required to be the same it's a 10

- minute delay is it delay because of grade crossing incident or equipment malfunction. I don't know that that really matters that much. I think what is important is you let everybody know on the train there is a 10

- minute delay.>> JIM PECHT: You want to Dennis wants to, yes.
>> Dennis Cannon: Yes, if Metro announces that we are stuck outside of the station because of the train, that may be a standard announcement but some of these od dball ones you are not going to have the train operator typing on a keyboard to give a verbal message of something he has probably got other things to do. I want to remind people of something that keeps coming up periodically. A DA is a nondiscrimination statute. W hat it means is if information is being provided to the general public it has to be provided in such a way that people with disabilities can get it. I t does not mean that information has to be provided to people with disabilities that is not provided to the general public. S o, that's true of all of the provisions. O ccasionally people start thinking we need to do this and add this and add this. T here is lots of instances where the general public doesn't know what is going on either. T here is no obligation the disabled people have to know what is going on when the general public doesn't. >> ED HOFF: Terry, Ed Hoff, I have a couple of places on the system where I think I can get somebody to speak how we do it in the newer station sick caucus tra nsfer. Trains are routinely being switched to other tracks lastminute. T here are traditionally Frank was alluding to

primarily redone audibly someone says train is going to be delayed on blah, blah, blah. T his particular station all of the announcement s are typing into a keyboard first and transferred into voice. S o, you already got the text message and the voice message. A nd nobody

-- I don't think we could require that everywhere we have existing systems but I can probably get in one of our subcommi ttee telephone calls a

-- somebody to speak to the issue about speech to text, Text

- to

- Speech and we can a lot of the messages after it happens we can it. We have a searchable database this is my rudimentary understanding of the system. A nd so, that they don't have to retype it every time. T hey search for the message very quickly hit a key stroke that message came up they might have made 6 months ago was the last time and it automatically goes out. T here are systems out there, I don't know enough about them but perhaps at one of our conference calls I can hook it up. >> Just to corroborate that, it's the same thing we do, it may be the same software package. B ut it's all at central control.
>> Terry: T hank you. I f I would

-- >> I will.>> Let me kn ow, so we don't cross schedules that

would be great. >> You have two seconds. >> Terry: 1 5 seconds left.
>> Quick question for Jim as far as RVAAC is concerned and then the notice of rulemaking and then at some point final rule all of that what is the tim eframe we are looking at before this is printed in the Federal Register when we can

-- >> If you can answer that I will treat you. D on't even try. (LAUGHTER) >> JIM PECHT: I will give you spring I won't say what year. (LAUGHTER) >> I am used to that. >> JIM PECHT: Spring is a good time. I don't know it's a long process. >> Blair Slaughter: I depends how conscientious some of the things we recommend going forward are. The reason I asked we are seeing technology, some things
are slowing down some things keep running so far out in front of us that it could well be by the time we are at point of rulemaking that some of these things have caught up.I mean they should only get better some may not

especially when it comes to language recognition. >> JIM PECHT: One quick thing I want to remind the committee we are talking not only talking about the vehicle but talking about the physical things of the vehicle. We are not talking about operational things. S o, I know Metro does a good jo b of

-- the driver has

-- he projects into the station this is the orange line train to Balston, some of them do it while the train is still moving you get (inaudible). T hey don't wait to stop to sort of do the thing but that's an operational issue we can 't do

-- require somebody inside reg to do. We can say this is how the system has to work DOT has to go with >> (inaudible) >> That they have to use automated. >> JIM PECHT: You still haven't told them when they have to make the automated announcement that was my only point. I think unless >> Terry: I would love to keep going with this indeference to our interpreters who have done an incredible job. (APPLAUSE) >> Really, everybody deserves a round of applause. We have got to call it a night.(LA UGHTER) >> JIM PECHT: So ordered. >> Terry: D o I hear a motion to adjourn? >> Second. (End of meeting.)