Note: The output shown below is from the 

Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) 

system used in the subcommittee meeting and is 

unedited. The CART system was used to provide an 

accommodation to persons with hearing loss and 

persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time 

and available to the public on the internet during the 

meeting. 

U.S. Access Board

Thursday, April 10, 2014

Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee

Communications Subcommittee Meeting

>> Terry Pacheco: Can you come back to the table so 

we can get done in a little while? Okay. Is everybody 

ready to get into our what I believe is our last session of 

the day? First thing I would like to do, actually first piece 

of housekeeping that's very important. Anyone who does 

asking for the floor please identify yourself. Our 

captioner would extremely be appreciative -- would be 

extremely appreciative if we do that. And okay so this is 

the sub-- the communications subcommittee meeting. 

We are hoping to make this pretty brief. But we do want 

to give you an update on what we have been doing. And 
a little bit more of -- of where we are hope to go go over 

the next -- my goal is to set us a -- agenda for at least 

part of our agenda for the next roughly three months. I, 

unfortunately, was not able to make last week's meeting. 

But Jim did so in just a minute I am going to ask him to 

give us a brief report and anybody else that was on the call 

is more than welcome to add into it. One of the things 

that I would like to first of all do is I would like to thank 

the Access Board staff -- you know, my mother said never 

start thanking peep in public you are going to forget 

someone. If I do I apologize I am particularly -- this 

committee has had an awful lot of -- received a bought lot 

of benefit from Jim Pecht, Paul Beatty and Marsha Mazz. I

would like to thank them and I would like to thank 

everyone who worked on this committee, Blair Slaughter, 

and Frank Maldari has done yeoman's work getting us 

accessible photos of different types of cars, of different 

types of signage a few other people have done similar 

things. And I just want to extend our appreciation as a 

committee to everyone who has done something for us. 

We have learned a lot from one another. We have had a 

learning experiences that I don't think quite honestly we 

would have had in any other type of environment. I want 

to thank you for -- thank you all for that. With that I will 
pass it over to Jim he is going to give us an update of 

where we are coming from.

>> JIM PECHT: Thank you Terry this is Jim Pecht. I

know there is some folks in here that hasn't participated in 

the previously known as signage committee and the 

communications committee let me sort of give you a 

general overview. The committee has looked at and 

discussed briefly some of the requirements in the building 

side as far as signage is concerned. We went out and did 

homework and came back with a whole list of different 

signs that were in the environment and there was a huge 

list that we sort of compiled and put together within sort 

of took that list and tried to categorize the different types 

of signs out there into categories and have since been 

working on try to go get the categories and say for this 

category, what type of requirement should apply. Should 

the sign be both tactile and visual? Should it be visual 

only? Should it be an audible sign? If audible sign does 

it need to have visibles to go with it obviously.

And there was discussion about when you do do 

audible stuff it has to be unduck shun loop applied to it. 

And we talked in terms of started briefly to talk about 

certain signs that may or may not be required to be in 

message signs that would apply to having the audible 
come into it in effect. And we have been working towards 

that goal. Last committee meeting we sort of got a 

couple of the categories knocked out we decided 

employee only signs wouldn't have -- be required to have 

any requirement. And we talked about menus and 

directories on rail vehicles. And what should apply to 

them. We sort of came up with sort of a just pre-idea of 

at least one menu in whatever car that menus are provided 

had to be within the visual sign requirement if they were 

provided in signs. There was discussion about could they 

make could the subcommittee make recommendations 

outside of our purview to DOT with regards to applies you 

know doing things library web-based menus or Braille 

menus that were paper menus and handed out. Certainly 

that is within the committee's per view to make those 

recommendations as far as the guidelines are concerned it 

wouldn't be something that we could do those are 

movable furniture and equipment not covered by the 

guidelines. There was a discussion that started and 

continue it in one of our next meetings about well this 

whole tying visual signs provided moveable should there 

be audible with it when audible is provided should visual 

signs go with it. We will be continuing that I am sure. 

So, with that I am going to turn it back over to Terry and 
how she wants to proceed with her the agenda.

>> Terry: Does anyone else have anything they want 

to add in of something else anything that we haven't 

covered that we dealt with in the past anybody else?

>> JIM PECHT: One more thing from my point Paul said 

the next meeting of this subcommittee is Thursday May 1 

from 1 to 3 so --

>> It's going to be the May day meeting. Hopefully 

not that kind of may day. I was thinking more of pole and 

flowers.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Hold on a second.

>> This is Andrew. I would like interactive visual 

signs to the agenda. I would like to discuss that o that 

for deaf and hard of hearing people who ride the rail?

>> Terry: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. What did you 

say something about the agenda. Hold on a second I 

need --

Interactive visual signs. Interesting idea. Let me 

think through the difference between moving and 

interactive. But that's -- that is a very interesting idea. 

Let me write a note because I will forget it if I don't.

>> Terry there is Marsha Mazz could I ask Andrew to 

further explain what you means by interactive visual signs 
as opposed to variable message signs which are moving

>> This is Andrew. I mean signs that do not change 

and make emergency alerts and explain what the 

announcement is saying or the stop signs that change.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Okay. That's essentially the same 

thing as a variable message sign.

>> Andrew: Okay.

>> Terry: It is a variable message sign I was thinking 

along the lines of something that maybe not be available 

or may not be widely available today but something that 

may be more interactive as well. I think you have hit a 

very good -- like a touch pad type signage. 

Something -- I am not sure but I think it's something well 

worth looking into. I am going to bring up an issue I 

mentioned it to a couple of people today. And I would 

like to get people's feedback on it. And that is that I think 

what is incredibly important for this committee is for us to 

be making some very well informed and well educated 

decisions. I think that we all bring our own levels of 

expertise our own areas of expertise to the table. But I 

don't think there is anyone in this room who would 

disagree with me in the fact that none of us know 

everything about every issue. So, what I am thinking is 

over the next two to three months, what if we did a little 
bit of a change of our agenda. And put in some 

presentations on issues that we have not really dealt with 

in these committee -- in these meetings of the committee 

of the whole. If we did some, for instance, on topics -- I 

have talked to two different people here today who have 

gotten different answers on types of loops. I know that 

there, as one topic. I know that there is a lot more data 

and a lot more information available as far as low vision, 

low vision and blindness are concerned, when it comes to 

signage. Then there was available back at the time of the 

ADA or the ADAAG. There is just a lot more information 

that a lot of us would like to share. And that a lot of us 

would like to learn about. I am thinking that we could do 

one or two limited to 30-minute presentation and focus 

on that topic for that meeting. For the next couple of 

months. Or at least for major portion of that meeting. I

am thinking somebody a couple of months ago, for 

instance, had brought up the idea of talking signs. How 

many people actually know what different kinds of signage 

are available? Somebody called me last week asked me 

what I know about laserren graving additions to laser 

engraving machines that will do Braille I said I haven't got 

a clue in the world. But these are all topics that I don't 

think any of us are true -- know enough about to be 
making really good informed decisions. So I am thinking 

of trying to get some real topics put together for us to do 

over the next few months sore maybe 30 minutes of each 

of our conference calls. Is anybody have 

any -- aidly -- I'd like to hear what you think about that 

idea. So we know what kind of things are really out there 

when we are trying to come up with decisions here.

>> Hi, this is Janice Schacter Lintz, I was actually, to 

expand on what you are saying, I would love to do a 

presentation on induction loops in Braille around the world 

and legislation that I am aware of. I also explain what 

induction loops are, the difference in sound, and how they 

are used. Maybe with a quickie presentation on how they 

are used in other areas outside of the rail so people can 

see this is not just a rail issue. Because I think the way 

that I am learning about trains and quickly learning about 

all of the different trains and understanding the systems I 

think there are a lot of people in the room that who do not 

have the same expertise on hearing loss. And I would like 

to share my expertise on hearing loss with people who are 

more experts in the rail system. So, I don't know if that's 

within our scope or a Paul Beatty issue or Chris issue I 

offer my services.

>> Terry: Thank you, thank you we will absolutely 
add it to the list. I am thinking something like this, 

something like what you are suggesting perhaps a 

company coming in about loops that they sell something 

on that idea. That we could we could at least learn more 

about them so we are on the same page on making these 

the very difficult decisions that we are coming up with 

absolutely Dennis?

>> Dennis Cannon: Yes, one of the -- this is a rail 

vehicle access advisory committee. So we are writing 

ultimately we are making recommendations for all kinds of 

rail vehicles we have been concentrating on inter-city 

Amtrak which is a different breed than something like a 

Metrorail. Back when we were riding -- writing the 

guidelines from people who were familiar with inductive 

loops, they -- we were told that they would not work on a 

rapid rail car. And the reason had to do with the fact that 

the engines are right -- the electric motors essentially are 

right under the floor and that they would simply disrupt 

any kind of inductive loop. So, if you give a presentation 

could you address that specific issue?

>> Janice: I agree with Terry. I think the 

presentation should be divided by two. I can do the 

access part of it, and show you around the world I am not 

an engineer would never pretend to be there should be 
someone who is from induction loop company I could 

ascertain who is the best person doing rail whether they 

come to the United States, because they are international. 

I think if I do the overview and what is going on around 

the world. And then they can do the parted on the actual 

installation. You do not want me doing the installation

part just trust me based on my questions on rails you got 

the idea.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Yes. Down at the end.

>> This is David. I lost my train of thought with 

everybody going back and forth I appreciate someone 

recognizing now I have my turn that's all I can say, thank 

you.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> I lost my train of thought.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Terry: That's what happens when you have a blind 

person trying to recognize a hard-of-hearing person.

>> Oh, right right right. Excuse me, that is --

>> I'm sorry, I didn't see you down there.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> I am here waving my hand down here everyone 

should be responsible as well.
>> This is Frank. I want to follow up with what Dennis 

was saying with interference with hearing loops we had 

done investigation there is a concern with hearing loops 

over AC traction motors EMI. It's -- it's not really easy to 

understand what is going on but there is electromagnetic 

fields around the motors it creates a problem for the 

hearing loops. They are really, if you look around in this 

country the only place that's actually trying to use hearing 

loops is Barth. Originally they to my knowledge they were 

going to put them in every car have 100% coverage they 

came back with a bunch of problems they are trying to 

work through them 

To my understanding that has not been fully addressed 

yet. It's something at least at Barth they are working on 

there is not really a solution. My understanding, also, 

with respect to hearing loops there is two different kinds 

active and passive. The Barth system they are trying to 

incorporate is active that works directly -- of the PA. 

There is also alternatives to that. There is a passive 

system which picks up noise from the environment around 

the receiver not just what is enunciated on the PA. That 

system is a little less fraught with EMI concerns it's a little 

bit more localized. And potentially could work better in a 

rail environment. So, that's, you know two options, one 
of them with the active system with known problems. 

And another one with the passive system with -- which 

may be better suited for this environment.

>> This is Janice Schacter to respond to what he is 

saying.

>> Bob remembered his.

>> Yes, I do remember what I was going to say earlier. 

I am interested in the meetings because of the work that I 

do. Global -- sorry globe. They are producing a new 

project I forgot the Globe Transit we are trying to keep 

track of the U.S. system and now they are planning to 

include rail, light rail, and what I mean by that is where the 

trains are run with the PS -- I'm sorry, sorry, interpreter 

error.

Global was using our GPS. Google using GPS. We can 

put it into the train on the, on to the train so we can figure 

out where we are. And we can get ready with with ready 

within an app. You could put it on a website. And 

maybe that could be something in the future like a 

monitor that could be used within a monitor we could have 

that on a train so we can know where we are on a train. 

So, I would like that to be added to the agenda. So that 

maybe we can use more information with Google.

>> Thank you, David.
>> We are talking about putting --

>> This is Lise. I asked if he meant it was a mobile 

app or could it be a sign in the car itself. David was 

saying basically it could be both either or whatever you 

wanted to design that's interesting too.

>> ED HOFF: Ed Hoff. If we are still talking about 

inductive loops or branching off to other ways to get 

information out there I think we should close the pardon 

the pun loop on inductive loops say we should entertain a 

presentation both on the access and engineering issues 

perhaps potential issues with inductive loops. Because we 

should talk about all of the different types of inputs that 

we want to provide information on. So I think Terry you 

asked at the beginning what type of presentations we 

might want to entertain one would be inductive loops one 

David raised now is with smartphone apps or other types 

of devices with different types of apps perhaps somebody 

could give a presentation on that. It's important we find 

alternative means to provide information. Different 

outputs, we know we have audible announcements we 

know we are going to require textural announcements we 

should look to find other ways to provide signs that are 

very wordy. There is not going to be very many way toss 

provide the static signs with a lot of words and make them 
large enough to be visually understandable unless we have 

some other means of providing that information either 

audibly or by some other means. I think we should close 

the loop on that thank you.

>> Terry: I think you make an excellent point to that 

end

>> Janice: One more thing before you close on that 

topic Terry when you have a chance, sorry, I knew you 

couldn't see me. It sounded like you were ending the 

conversation on it.

>> No.

>> Sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt.

>> Go ahead.

>> I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just want to make 

sure that there is an understanding that loops are installed 

on trains in Australia, in Ireland, in England it's mandated 

by law in Spain. And this is nothing personal against 

Frank the chairman of the MTA made it clear he does not 

want to do it he is only doing it when it's regulated when 

the MTA's position is it isn't be done sus suspect they 

don't want to have it imposed nothing personal against 

Frank, he wasn't part of the meeting Tom Pendergast was, 

clearly he will only do it if it was regulated. He told me 

it's not regulated. We need to have discussion like 
Edward said, one is access, what is being done around the 

world, second engineering this is the first I have heard 

about active and passive. I have been doing this 13 years 

I never heard the term but like I sedentary I don't know 

everything but I think I would definitely heard this 

somewhere in 13 years.

>> Terry: Well, that's kind of where I was just going. 

And that is as far as all of this is concerned you know how 

we are doing homework assignments. What I would very, 

very much like to see happen and appreciate from any of 

you that have any ideas, would you please E-mail me with 

the name or contact information or your willingness to set 

up something, anything specific, of who might be a good 

person to get in touch with from XYZ company for a 

presentation. So that we can put a -- you know, I don't 

wanted to say a database, I would like to have that many 

responses. But so that we can put something together 

and we can put it out to everyone for their opinion. 

Would you please send any thought -- any ideas that you 

may have on this or any contacts on it to me personally 

and I will put a list together for -- to go on -- to come to 

the Access Board and for us to get in touch with. Anyone 

that hasn't heard this at least 5 times from me already my 

E-mail address is: TERRYPACH @ VERIZON.NET. I would 
like to started getting us some presenters for the May, 

June, July meetings at least. By that point, we really need 

to start absolutely getting into the far more technical 

issues we have we have other issues we haven't talked 

about like guide dog relief areas. We have an awful lot to 

do we have got to get some really good information under 

our belts so we can make some very good informed 

decisions. Anyone that can come up with someone they 

would like us to hear from please E-mail it to me again 

TERRYPACH @ Verison.NET

>> I will ask Jim to work as sergeant in arms because 

he can see better than I anyone have anything anything 

else they want to bring up. Hut hut hi this is more of a 

question of an issue. It came up in other committees. In 

rural areas where you have stops that mainly consist only 

of slab of concrete or you know something else, without 

any particular service available, there is very often a lack of 

communication for a user or the passenger to know, for 

instance, if when the train is arriving if there is a delay. 

Any kind of communication that is certainly not available 

in the what we usually get in the train station or are we 

assuming that everybody has a computer gets web access 

or has the mobile phone. Or is this an issue that 

somebody has come across here as well. 
>> This is Jim. First of all, that's a station side issue not 

within our purview. >> Uwe 

Rutenberg: Okay.

>> JIM PECHT: I think if we are going to talk about 

those things talk about the station shop announcements 

and route destination announcements within the trains 

that's what we are going to talk about. As far as I know, 

you have got spit of concrete and a parking lot and that's 

it. And there is nothing out there that's not something we 

are going to be able to address with this committee.

>> Terry, this is Marsha Mazz. Uwe makes a good 

point. In rural areas there may not be the ability to get a 

signal if you are going to consider anything that depends 

on use of the web for example or other kinds of 

technology cell technology where you have to have a 

signal. So, you are not going to get a signal beneath the 

City of Baltimore. You are not going to get a signal out in 

the desert. There is a lot of places you are not going to 

get a signal.

>> Terry: Good point.

>> Mr. Slaughter.

>> This is Blair Slaughter, from Amtrak. For audible 

themes, the good old fashioned telephone works at least 

for Amtrak to call even our automated folks to find out 
what the status is of the train. But if you are arriving at a 

station, and there is visual issues then, yeah, that's 

obviously a much different situation right there at the 

station. I have seen places where we have had the next 

station down the line that was occupied live station 

actually called, made announcements for the next station 

unstaffed as if there was someone in the building. But 

they, and they knew the train left them so they would 

make that announcement the train would be there in 10 

minutes. And I think that you could actually call that 

station as well. But, yeah, there are those places where 

there is nothing out there.

>> JIM PECHT: I agree. I ride the Metro. And my 

phone works at the station not in the tunnel. At the 

station not in the tunnel. It's kind of hard to have a 

conversation when you are only in the station for like you 

know a minute.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Fast call.

>> Terry: The other issue about those as well. Is 

that there are many, many stations where there is a sign 

that says, like with the Metro, like on the what's that one 

down in South Florida the rail where there is no staff, but 

it may say the train is coming in 22 minutes. And if you 
can't see that sign you have no idea. And you know, 

unless you do use a telephone type situation and like 

Marsha and Jim like we have all just said it's oftentimes it's 

not available that way.

>> ED HOFF: This is Ed Hoff too. Dennis' earlier point 

regarding when we -- our discussions primarily about 

inner-city rail we should obviously consider light rail on 

this committee with communications and light rail is 

required to make station announcements when it's in the 

station. If there is -- I use the term I forget the 

regulatory terms let's say if the train pulling into the 

station if it's not the same train every time. If you have an 

express train that goes through there perhaps.

>> Destination (inaudible)

>> ED HOFF: I didn't catch the last word.

>> Destination announcements.

>> ED HOFF: If every train that pulls into the station 

the same train you don't need to make an announcement 

if they go some place different go to different stops you 

need to identify the train. Light rail vehicles if they don't 

have station-borne announcements telling you that in 

New Jersey Transit we have external speakers on the light 

rail vehicles that make the announcements a lot of our 

facilities we don't have a PA system. So, I don't know if it 
would translate necessarily on to commuter rail or to 

inner-city rail. In those situations, as Uwe was saying in 

rural areas where there is no PA systems it would be 

beneficial, I don't know if necessarily fits to inner-city rail 

but if the inner city rail itself which has a crew and make 

announcements when they hit the platform at least then 

you are able to identify what train it is. I don't know if we 

need more in commuter rail or other places.

>> CLIFF PEREZ: I mentioned this before I have to keep 

reiterating this, by the way in terms of the speaker on the 

outside, I don't really understand why it couldn't work on 

any train maybe maybe that was the issue with buses there 

was no speaker on the outside if you are blind, standing 

out waiting for a bus you had no idea what bus it was. I

don't know why this could be done with every single train. 

Takes care where they don't have somebody whatever the 

issue may be. The other issue I raised the issue last time 

about knowing where the heck you were -- you were on 

the -- when you are on the train and where you are going. 

The person from New York City I haven't hidden the 

subway in a long time claims there are announcements are 

clear I can say riding the Metro which I did that is not clear 

whatsoever. I believe that we need to work in an 

automated system people themselves are extremely 
unreliable. And can't be trusted to be making the 

announcements that would seem so simple to do. They 

can't -- they don't know how to use a microphone it's too 

close or too far and all kinds of issues that needs to be 

automated and everyone needs to have that every train 

everything that moves so people know where the heck, 

they are going so I don't have to keep asking people all of 

the time what station are we at.

>> ED HOFF: Ed Hoff again. Wholeheartedly agree, it's 

been recognized on bus the proposed regs to be adopted 

for bus requires automated announcements on buses for 

the very many reasons that cliff recited. And whether it's 

required for not, I think a lot of commuter railroads 

recognize that fact and are already moving toward 

automated announcements it's easier to do on the railroad 

fewer stops they don't change too often so not too much 

of a recording. But so it should be easier to do. The 

only difference being what I mentioned before the external 

speakers may not be necessary given the way commuter 

rail and inner-city rail operate given they have crews that 

announce when they step off it's not a bad addition I don't 

know it's necessary when compared to light rail or bus 

where you -- you rely heavy on the announcement to 

know what bus it is light rail where it's going to assure you 
get on the right vehicle.

>> Frank Maldari: Following what Ed said automated 

announcement it's a technology that does exist we use it 

on the new equipment even though not regulated on 

Long Island. It's the smart thing to do if you can 

depending on your situation. Part of the reason is just I 

forgot what the guy said just before me not everybody 

knows how to use a mic as I can attest here.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Frank Maldari: Not everybody speaks clear, 

perfect English so having a recorded announcement for 

automate particular -- automatic stakes make sense it can 

be done reliably. I know when I am waiting for a train and 

it's busy I like to see the sign and I like to hear it. One of 

the side effects of the system that we have now which has 

external speakers external signs that show the same 

information so that everybody can understand where the 

train is going, is that going through neighborhoods in 

some areas at 2 o'clock in the morning we started to get a 

lot of complaints about the noise coming from the cars 

announcingsing the next station in the stations. So, you 

have to recognize that in some certain instances, requiring 

external speakers to be activated could be a little bit 

problematic in some of the areas.
>> JIM PECHT: Down at the end of the table Bob, 

David.

>> This is David. Again, I had a question for you, Ed. 

You are working with the Long Island Railroad.

>> New Jersey Transit.

>> Okay. Fine. I'm sorry. Oh, okay. I am sorry. I

have a comment for both of you then. My mistake.

I am curious about the train status, how reliable is your 

train status for arrival for each station? Do you use GPS? 

Do you use some kind of computer that's based on some 

other signal? Or what do you guys use in your system.

>> Frank Maldari: The on board question uses GPS 

and dead reckoning. Where you don't have GPS coverage 

it counts the distance to make sure you get to Penn Station 

it knows you have there -- you are there. On the trains 

it's reliable I know we have information signs on the 

platforms that are keying off of certain points along the 

right of way waiting to see when the train goes by. You 

can't tell when the train stops in between two points of 

interest but when it's passing each point you know it's 

pasted the point whether it's 5 minutes late or early it 

knows that distinction. The information is fairly reliable. 

It does -- you do count on the train operator putting in 

the right station assignments, and the right station stops 
to know when the next one is. He has to actually turn on 

the system so you know there is some operator 

involvement and the potential for some systems to not 

work in addition to mechanical breakdowns. But overall 

it's fairly reliable.

>> ED HOFF: I don't want to say normally but it's pretty 

easy to give status when things are on the schedule. We 

are pretty liberal with the term. It's only -- it's only when 

things go wrong that we have difficulty getting the 

information and determining how long the delay will be. 

For that I will redirect the question to Blair because the 

reason why we are delayed is something happened in 

northeast corridor.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> ED HOFF: They threw us off kilter. We have to 

recover some how.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Okay. Follow-up question on that then. I do -- I 

will confirm with the northeast corridor problem we 

experience that too.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> David: But my problem is really is that we have 

information in the system -- we have passenger 

information that displays in the station for the status for 
the people who are waiting for a train to arrive. And that 

displays if it's on time or if it's delayed. If it's going to be 

late for 10 minutes or what not. But sometimes I am 

looking at that display and it says that it's coming but it's 

already arrived really. So, our system is really not just on 

GPS and that's one of the struggles that we experience. 

We are trying to figure out how to solve that problem with 

the new display or with new technology. And it's not 

really just the deaf community, it's really everyone because 

everyone wants to -- everyone wants to know when the 

train is going to arrive and when it's going to leave. If it's 

going to be an 8-hour delay people want to know. It's 

happened. Trust me, it's happened. My point that I am 

trying to ask from you, if you have anything that's based 

GPS or not based with GPS.

>> ED HOFF: This is Ed Hoff again. I think I am Frank 

and I are similar how our systems operate that there are 

struggles with the systems that we have. That there are 

block spots where there is no communication but based 

upon speed of train and less communication you have an 

idea where the train is and what is going on. It's only 

when -- our delays are not significant until something 

significant happens. So, when that happens, we don't 

usually -- our immediate information is usually not that 
reliable. If we have an hour delay we don't know we have 

an hour delay so we determine how long the train 

stopped, how long it's going to get fixed or another train 

to get by it. The 5-minute delay is not an issue, it's the 

long delay that's an issue that we really struggle with. Is 

that true, Frank?

>> Frank Maldari: Yes. I ride the train too, and I 

want to know if I am going to be sitting there for an hour 

or 5 minutes just like everybody else. The reality of it is 

you just don't know. You try to give out as much 

information as you can, and you -- you know, you almost 

err to the point you give out too much information it's 

misinformation and people get more mad. So, you have 

to walk a fine line between giving out the most accurate 

up to date information that you can and it's not always 

that accurate because you don't know how bad it is. We 

have incidents at gate crossings it could take an hour or 

five hours you have no idea how long it's going to steak 

for that situation to be resolved and the trains resumed. I

share the same anxiety knowing when my train is going to 

leave. You try to give out the best information you can. 

The automated identification systems that we are using 

now overall I think are really good. They address a lot of 

the issues. Where am I going. What station is this. 
They do it fairly reliably. Using the same GPS to help 

indicate when the trains are coming into the station at the 

stations they know a little bit better when the next train is 

coming. But as far as this group goes, sounds like to me 

automate particular station identification system is kind of 

what we are working towards requiring. In other words, 

you want an automated announcement of the station and 

the next station and that sort of thing is possible. It's 

done, it costs some amount of money. But it's not 

something that hasn't been used in service. We use it it 

works fairly reliably. I think that's something that we can 

add to the list of requirements that we want to put on.

>> This is Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. You know, 

the Amtrak system is sometimes fortunately sometimes 

not mixes into a little bit into the commuter world and into 

the long distance world. Communications with fixed 

messages station stops and things like that are one thing 

but where we run over night trains as an example, we may 

be coming

>> A station and we have a prohibition on making 

audible announcements after a certain amount of time in 

those trains that are attendants to know they keep a list of 

where everyone is going to go get the people and make 

sure they get off the train in the right place. We are not 
waking up everyone in the sleeping hours. On the other 

hand, we have trains that operate day trains they are not 

that far away from Long Island or Jersey Transit and those 

kinds of messages make a lot of sense. One of the things 

that I remember from studying mass transportation years 

ago was that one of the things that deters people from 

mass transportation is fear of the unknown or not being 

able to get information or not being able once they are in 

the system to get where they want to go and end up 

somewhere they don't want to go and not be able to get 

back. So, it makes a lot of sense from not only a right 

thing to do but even from a business standpoint if we can 

present our systems so that people are less afraid of them, 

we get more people out of their cars on on to mass transit 

where it's better anyway.

>> ED HOFF: This is Ed Hoff again. I wholeheartedly 

agree with Blair. We have three light rail systems Camden 

to Trenton, one from Bayonne through Jersey City into 

Hoboken and one in almost wholly contained within the 

City of Newark. We have requirements to blow horns 

when crossing at gray crossings these are requirements 

not something you choose to turn off in some cases. 

Some things you can choose to turn off these you cannot. 

These are safety related. But to Blair's point, you don't 
want somebody getting on the wrong train so you have to 

make an accommodation in some manner. There are also 

a lot of speaker systems out there are self limiting in that 

they recognize ambient noise they are volume adjusting. 

I don't know that the technology is perfect. But if it's not 

you perhaps could make an accommodation where the 

announcement would be louder during the day and not so 

loud at certain other times. Of course we have a habitual 

complainer in one area of Jersey City he works night shift 

tries to sleep 2 o'clock in the afternoon make an 

announcement Essex street he has his window open. We 

can't help that. You have to make the announcement 

botch the ambient note, nobody told you to build the 

condominium close to the railroad we were there first. 

So, you know, these are defensible in certain areas as long 

as you take -- you are reasonable if your approach, and 

you understand the need in the case of blowing the horn 

at rail crossings it's safety related concern and secondly 

you have a requirement to make announcement when 

trains go different places.

>> JIM PECHT: I know Mr. Weisman has a question. 

We are about at 5 to 5, we are scheduled to quit at 5. We 

have the flexibility to go a little longer, if you want to 

unless I have asked. We have the capability to -- wait, we 
don't.

>> This is David. The interpreters can't stay past 

5 o'clock.

>> JIM PECHT: All right. That answers that question. 

Mr. Weisman, quick.

>> JIM WEISMAN: I will forgo my question.

>> There you go Jim, you are the man.

>> JIM PECHT: I want to make a recommendation as far 

as presentations are concerned. If we can find somebody 

with expertise to do it, I know one of the big things that 

we have been talking about is when you do visible you do 

audible when you do audible you do visible. You get into 

two different types of announcements you have static 

announcements we have been talking about here with a 

station Metro center, easy. Doable. What's more difficult 

is dynamic announcements where you have something 

that is not canned, it's done instantaneously spur of the 

moment how can that be or is it possible -- I know it's 

doable but doable with difficulty to translate that into 

visual when you are doing -- again, I don't know -- if 

there is somebody out there to recommend somebody to 

talk to us about that I think that would be a good subject.

>> Frank Maldari: It's a good question Jim, the CART 

system, you have somebody doing error correction. 
Outside of that, because I guess the technical difficulty has 

to do with recognizing someone's speech because it's 

inconsistent when they get on do emergency 

announcements it's hard to do. I think from my 

understanding of where the industry is, your best bet is 

probably to have a couple of canned announcements of 

standard types of delays that you could put on the visual 

messaging system. We do -- you do have opportunity to 

send a signal out to a specific car believe it or not it's 

relatively hard to make it sure -- make sure you get it to 

the right car not the wrong car. So, in the transit 

industry, you don't want to do something unless you can 

do it reliably. If you can't do it reliably you are better off 

not doing it at all because you create more confusion that 

way. From the perspective of where we are going in that 

regard I think the best thing that we can do is give some 

flexibility in emergency announcements such that you 

know, you could have canned announcements but the

exact detail I don't think should be required to be the 

same it's a 10-minute delay is it delay because of grade 

crossing incident or equipment malfunction. I don't know 

that that really matters that much. I think what is 

important is you let everybody know on the train there is a 

10-minute delay.
>> JIM PECHT: You want to Dennis wants to, yes.

>> Dennis Cannon: Yes, if Metro announces that we 

are stuck outside of the station because of the train, that 

may be a standard announcement but some of these 

oddball ones you are not going to have the train operator 

typing on a keyboard to give a verbal message of 

something he has probably got other things to do. I want 

to remind people of something that keeps coming up 

periodically. ADA is a nondiscrimination statute. What it 

means is if information is being provided to the general 

public it has to be provided in such a way that people with 

disabilities can get it. It does not mean that information 

has to be provided to people with disabilities that is not 

provided to the general public. So, that's true of all of the 

provisions. Occasionally people start thinking we need to 

do this and add this and add this. There is lots of 

instances where the general public doesn't know what is 

going on either. There is no obligation the disabled 

people have to know what is going on when the general 

public doesn't.

>> ED HOFF: Terry, Ed Hoff, I have a couple of places 

on the system where I think I can get somebody to speak 

how we do it in the newer station sick caucus transfer. 

Trains are routinely being switched to other tracks last 
minute. There are traditionally Frank was alluding to 

primarily redone audibly someone says train is going to be 

delayed on blah, blah, blah. This particular station all of 

the announcements are typing into a keyboard first and 

transferred into voice. So, you already got the text 

message and the voice message. And nobody -- I don't 

think we could require that everywhere we have existing 

systems but I can probably get in one of our 

subcommittee telephone calls a -- somebody to speak to 

the issue about speech to text, Text-to-Speech and we 

can a lot of the messages after it happens we can it. We 

have a searchable database this is my rudimentary 

understanding of the system. And so, that they don't 

have to retype it every time. They search for the message 

very quickly hit a key stroke that message came up they 

might have made 6 months ago was the last time and it 

automatically goes out. There are systems out there, I 

don't know enough about them but perhaps at one of our 

conference calls I can hook it up. 

>> Just to corroborate that, it's the same thing we do, 

it may be the same software package. But it's all at 

central control.

>> Terry: Thank you. If I would --

>> I will.
>> Let me know, so we don't cross schedules that 

would be great.

>> You have two seconds.

>> Terry: 15 seconds left.

>> Quick question for Jim as far as RVAAC is 

concerned and then the notice of rulemaking and then at 

some point final rule all of that what is the timeframe we 

are looking at before this is printed in the Federal Register 

when we can --

>> If you can answer that I will treat you. Don't even 

try.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> JIM PECHT: I will give you spring I won't say what 

year.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> I am used to that.

>> JIM PECHT: Spring is a good time. I don't know it's 

a long process.

>> Blair Slaughter: I depends how conscientious 

some of the things we recommend going forward are. 

The reason I asked we are seeing technology, some things 

are slowing down some things keep running so far out in 

front of us that it could well be by the time we are at point 

of rulemaking that some of these things have caught up. 
I mean they should only get better some may not 

especially when it comes to language recognition.

>> JIM PECHT: One quick thing I want to remind the 

committee we are talking not only talking about the 

vehicle but talking about the physical things of the vehicle. 

We are not talking about operational things. So, I know 

Metro does a good job of -- the driver has -- he projects 

into the station this is the orange line train to Balston, 

some of them do it while the train is still moving you get 

(inaudible). They don't wait to stop to sort of do the thing 

but that's an operational issue we can't do -- require 

somebody inside reg to do. We can say this is how the 

system has to work DOT has to go with

>> (inaudible)

>> That they have to use automated.

>> JIM PECHT: You still haven't told them when they 

have to make the automated announcement that was my 

only point. I think unless

>> Terry: I would love to keep going with this 

indeference to our interpreters who have done an 

incredible job.

 (APPLAUSE)

>> Really, everybody deserves a round of applause. 

We have got to call it a night.
 (LAUGHTER)

>> JIM PECHT: So ordered.

>> Terry: Do I hear a motion to adjourn?

>> Second.

(End of meeting.)