## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. 

# CHICAGO PUBLIC HEARING EPA PROPOSAL FEDERAL IMPLEMENTATION PLANS TO REDUCE INTERSTATE TRANSPORT OF FINE PARTICULATE MATTER AND OZONE

CHICAGO, ILLINOIS AUGUST 19, 2010

Reported by:

Cynthia J. Conforti, CSR, RPR, CRR

License No. 084-003064

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## TRANSCRIPT OF THE CHICAGO PUBLIC HEARING, EPA 2 

## PROPOSAL, FEDERAL IMPLEMENTATION PLANS TO REDUCE 3 

## INTERSTATE TRANSPORT OF FINE PARTICULATE MATTER 4 

## AND OZONE HEARING, held at the Wyndham Hotel, 5 

## 633 North St. Clair Street, Chicago, Illinois, 6 

## commencing at 8:59 a.m. on Thursday, August 19, 7 

## 2010, heard before a Panel of the EPA, reported 8 

## by Cynthia J. Conforti, Certified Shorthand 9 

## Reporter, License No. 084-003064, for the State 10 

## of Illinois. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

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# EPA PANEL MEMBERS 2 3 

# Jeff Clark 4 

# Doug Aburano 5 

# Sam Napolitano 6 

# Sonja Rodman 7 

# Tim Smith 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

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## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Good morning, 2 

## everyone, and thank you for attending this 3 

## public hearing on EPA's proposed Transport Rule. 4 

## My name is Jeff Clark. I'm with 5 

## the EPA's Office of Air Quality Planning and 6 

## Standards. I'm associate director there. 7 

## We're located in Research Triangle 8 

## Park in North Carolina. 9 

## Before I start, I just want to go 10 

## ahead and introduce the Panel here. 11 

## On the far right here is Doug Aburano. 12 

## Doug is from EPA's regional office here in 13 

## Chicago. 14 

## This is Sam Napolitano. Sam is the 15 

## Director of Clean Air Markets Division for EPA 16 

## in Washington, D.C. 17 

## This is Sonja Rodman. Sonja is a 18 

## lawyer with the Office of General Counsel in 19 

## Washington, and then Tim Smith is with my 20 

## office, Office of Air Quality Planning and 21 

## Standards also in Research Triangle Park. 22 

## I'm chairing today's hearing. We are 23 

## going to go through a series of witnesses. 24 

## We're interested in listening to your comments

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## on this rule. 2 

## The proposal would require 31 states 3 

## and the District of Columbia to significantly 4 

## improve air quality by reducing power plant 5 

## emissions. 6 

## Specifically, the proposal would 7 

## require significant reductions in sulfur dioxide 8 

## and nitrogen oxide that cross state lines and 9 

## contribute to downwind nonattainment problems. 10 

## These pollutants react in the 11 

## atmosphere, form fine particles and ground-level 12 

## ozone and are transported long distances, making 13 

## it difficult for other areas, states, to achieve 14 

## national standards. 15 

## Fine particles and ozone cause a 16 

## series of human health effects and environmental 17 

## damages including premature mortality, chronic 18 

## and acute bronchitis, heart attacks, 19 

## hospitalization, emergency room visits, asthma 20 

## attacks, acid deposition, damage to sensitive 21 

## forests and coastal waters and impaired 22 

## visibility in national parks and wilderness 23 

## areas. 24 

## Emissions reductions under this

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## proposed rule would begin to take effect very 2 

## quickly in 2012, within one year of the Rule 3 

## being finalized. 4 

## By 2014, the Rule and other state and 5 

## EPA actions would reduce power plant emissions 6 

## by 71 percent over 2005 levels. 7 

## Power plant NOx emissions would drop by 8 

## 52 percent over that level as well. 9 

## We estimate that by 2014 this proposed 10 

## rule, if promulgated, would prevent 14,000 to 11 

## 36,000 premature deaths annually, as well as 12 

## provide many health and environmental benefits. 13 

## The portion of the benefits that can 14 

## be quantified is more than 120 to 290 billion 15 

## annually in 2014, and the benefits exceed the 16 

## cost substantially. The costs we project to be 17 

## $2.8 billion. 18 

## The Transport Rule would help all but 19 

## a very few areas in the eastern part of the 20 

## country meet the 1997 Fine Particle and Ozone 21 

## standards and the National Ambient Air Quality 22 

## standards. 23 

## In addition, the Rule would make major 24 

## strides in helping states towards meeting the

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## 2006 24-hour PM standard the EPA established. 2 

## The EPA is proposing one approach for 3 

## reducing SO2 and nitrogen oxide emissions in 4 

## states covered by this rule and is taking 5 

## comment on two other alternatives. 6 

## Our preferred approach in the 7 

## proposal, EPA is to set a pollution limit (or a 8 

## budget) for each of the 31 states and the 9 

## District of Columbia. 10 

## This approach would allow interstate 11 

## trading among power plants but assures that each 12 

## state will meet its pollution control 13 

## obligations. 14 

## In one of the alternatives, EPA is 15 

## proposing to set a pollution limit or budget for 16 

## each state. This option would allow trading 17 

## only among power plants within a state. 18 

## And, in a second alternative, EPA is 19 

## proposing to set a pollution limit for each 20 

## state and to specify the allowable emission 21 

## limit for each power plant and allow some 22 

## averaging. 23 

## This proposed rule is designed to 24 

## replace EPA's 2005 Clean Air Interstate Rule or

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## CAIR, and in December 2008 a court decision kept 2 

## the requirements of the CAIR rule in place 3 

## temporarily but directed us, EPA, to issue a new 4 

## rule to implement the Clean Air Act requirements 5 

## concerning the transport of pollution across 6 

## state boundaries, and this action is a response 7 

## to the Court's concerns. 8 

## We are accepting oral comments today 9 

## on our proposal and certainly will take any 10 

## written statement that people have as well any 11 

## written materials. 12 

## We are going to hold this hearing 13 

## today. We have got one next week in 14 

## Philadelphia and the following week in Atlanta. 15 

## Transcripts of all three of these 16 

## hearings will be available as part of the 17 

## official record for the Rule, and we will 18 

## consider all of these comments as we look 19 

## forward to completing the final rule. 20 

## We have a court reporter here today 21 

## who will be transcribing everything that is 22 

## said, and that transcript will be put into the 23 

## docket. 24 

## There is a handout in the registration

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## area that details information for submitting 2 

## written comments if anybody would like to do 3 

## that beyond their oral comments here today. 4 

## With that, I'd like to go ahead and 5 

## just talk about how we are going to run the 6 

## hearing. 7 

## We are going to call the speakers up. 8 

## We'll call you up in pairs, two at a time. 9 

## I think we are going to be okay 10 

## time-wise on this. Just what we see from 11 

## sign-ups, I think we are not going to be overly 12 

## jammed, but it will be somewhat busy this 13 

## morning, so we will call you up two at a time, 14 

## and ask when I call the names for you to come up 15 

## and have a seat, and then, in order to be fair 16 

## to everyone, we're going to hold you to 17 

## 5 minutes. 18 

## I'm going to not be real, real tight 19 

## on this because, again, we have a little bit of 20 

## give time here, but when you're through 21 

## speaking, if you could stay up there, if you're 22 

## the first speaker, if both of you could stay up 23 

## there until the two speakers have presented, 24 

## that would be great.

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## Then we're going to ask possibly some 2 

## clarifying questions of you, we may or may not, 3 

## and then we'll call up the next pair and go 4 

## through in that way. 5 

## We have a timekeeping system here 6 

## that will show up -- there's a light where you 7 

## are that will be green for four minutes. 8 

## When the yellow light comes on, that 9 

## means you've got a minute to go until the 10 

## 5 minutes is up. 11 

## When the red light comes on, if you 12 

## could sum up at that point, we'd appreciate that 13 

## very much. 14 

## As I said, we're not going to -- 15 

## because we're not overwhelmed here, I don't want 16 

## to just cut you off at 5 minutes, so we'll give 17 

## you a little bit flexibility, but please do not 18 

## abuse that just to be fair to everyone, 19 

## especially people that have other business this 20 

## morning that they want to get to. 21 

## We will be here through lunch. We 22 

## will be here up to a lunch period which I 23 

## believe is what time, 11:30; is that right. 24 

## We are here until noon. We'll take a

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## lunch break. We'll pick up again at 1:30, go 2 

## until 5, we'll have a dinner break, and then 3 

## pick up again I believe at 6, and we'll stay 4 

## here until 8 o'clock at night, so if anyone 5 

## needs to have people that are coming or could 6 

## potentially come at that point, we'll be here 7 

## through then. 8 

## And, essentially, if we're backed up 9 

## with speakers, we'll go beyond 8 if we need to. 10 

## We very much appreciate you being 11 

## here, and we're looking forward to your 12 

## comments. 13 

## And with that, unless anyone else has 14 

## anything to add... 15 

## I do want to say that the most 16 

## important person in this room by far is Cynthia, 17 

## who is the court reporter. At times, if we use 18 

## acronyms she may not understand, we may try to 19 

## get a clarification. 20 

## Also, if your name is somewhat 21 

## difficult, if you could spell it when you come 22 

## up, that would be great. That would be very 23 

## helpful to her as well. 24 

## With that, I would like to go ahead

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## and call up the first two speakers, Angela Tin 2 

## and Ashley Collins, please. 3 

## Angela, you are welcome to go first if 4 

## you'd like. 5 

## MS. ANGELA TIN: Good morning. 6 

## My name is Angela Tin, and I am the 7 

## Vice President of Environmental Health for the 8 

## American Lung Association of the Upper Midwest. 9 

## I am responsible for the environmental 10 

## concern in the seven states of the midwest 11 

## region, four of which will be directly impacted 12 

## by the Interstate Transport Rule. 13 

## The ALAUM is responsible for the 14 

## states of Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Minnesota, 15 

## North and South Dakota and Wisconsin. 16 

## In these seven states there are 40 17 

## counties that are in some degree of 18 

## nonattainment for the criteria pollutants. 19 

## Thank you for allowing me to provide 20 

## comments today. 21 

## My environmental career includes over 22 

## 20 years of experience with the Illinois 23 

## Environmental Protection Agency, and, more 24 

## directly, as compliance manager in the Bureau of

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## Air. 2 

## During that tenure, my job included 3 

## bridging the gap between engineers' inspection 4 

## reports and determining if there were violations 5 

## of state law and the Clean Air Act. 6 

## If violations were noted, we then 7 

## worked closely with facilities to correct the 8 

## violations, or in the alternative, take the 9 

## appropriate corrective action through the 10 

## enforcement, by working with our legal staff, 11 

## the Illinois Attorney General's Office or 12 

## through referral to U.S. EPA. 13 

## Most times though there were no 14 

## emission violations because the discharges were 15 

## within the point-source permitted limits. 16 

## My background is presented to 17 

## illustrate the numerous hours, time and effort 18 

## taken by the Illinois EPA to achieve the 19 

## necessary air quality standards which meet state 20 

## and federal law, and yet we are here today 21 

## making comments on a proposed federal rule 22 

## because we continue to have noncompliance for 23 

## these 40 counties with deadlines rapidly 24 

## approaching.

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## Currently, in Illinois there are 13 2 

## areas that are designated nonattainment. 3 

## The proposed rule puts everyone on a 4 

## common footing. Regardless of where they live, 5 

## they will be equally protected. 6 

## I would like to respond directly to 7 

## two items in the proposed rule. 8 

## I have had some experience with a 9 

## market-based system by helping to develop the 10 

## first VOM emissions trading program in Illinois. 11 

## I would recommended U.S. EPA's 12 

## preferred approach of setting a pollution budget 13 

## for each of the states, which allows for limited 14 

## interstate trading, but assures that each state 15 

## meet its pollution control technology. 16 

## Secondly, we have some concern that 17 

## the City of Chicago will not meet the fine 18 

## particulate standards by 2014, even with the 19 

## implementation of this proposed rule. 20 

## If the U.S. EPA's aware of this 21 

## situation, and if expectations prove to be true, 22 

## we urge U.S. EPA to take the proactive steps 23 

## right now to address the air quality concerns 24 

## rather than wait for 2014.

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## The American Lung Association of the 2 

## Upper Midwest recommends that U.S. EPA works 3 

## towards cleaner air by promulgating the 4 

## Interstate Transport Rule. 5 

## As I said, it's a very complex rule 6 

## and hard to read, over 1300 pages of regulatory 7 

## text, which I have read. 8 

## U.S. EPA did a lot of work to get 9 

## here, and we applaud your innovation and 10 

## leadership. Thank you. 11 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much. 12 

## Ms. Collins. 13 

## MS. ASHLEY COLLINS: My name is Ashley 14 

## Collins, and I'm the Environmental Health 15 

## Manager at the Respiratory Health Association of 16 

## Metropolitan Chicago. 17 

## Respiratory Health Association is a 18 

## 104-year old non-for-profit lung health 19 

## organization based in Chicago dedicated to 20 

## promoting healthy lungs and fighting lung 21 

## disease through research, advocacy and 22 

## education. 23 

## To that end, RHA serves an estimated 1 24 

## million Cook County residents living with

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## asthma, lung cancer, chronic obstructive 2 

## pulmonary disease, emphysema and other lung 3 

## diseases. 4 

## On behalf of our organization, we 5 

## wanted to thank the U.S. EPA for the opportunity 6 

## to comment on the Agency's proposed Clean Air 7 

## Transport Rule. 8 

## As an organization that represents 9 

## people who have lung disease, we came here today 10 

## to applaud EPA for their work and strongly 11 

## encourage the agency to do more to clean up 12 

## power plant pollution. 13 

## To us, EPA's pollution rule isn't 14 

## about scenic vistas and pretty skylines. To us, 15 

## it's a matter of public health. 16 

## Coal-fired power plant emission is 17 

## deadly and responsible for triggering tens of 18 

## thousands of asthma attacks, heart attacks, 19 

## strokes and missed school and workdays each 20 

## year. 21 

## EPA's proposal is a long and overdue 22 

## step for clean air. 23 

## For decades, polluters have refused to 24 

## invest in modern pollution controls. As a

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## result, coal-fired power plants continue to be 2 

## the single largest sources of air pollution in 3 

## the midwest, Illinois and Chicago. 4 

## On Chicago's west side, the Fisk and 5 

## Crawford power plants spew 5 million metric tons 6 

## of air pollution each year, causing asthma 7 

## attacks, heart attacks, and early deaths 8 

## throughout the city and state. 9 

## A dozen more coal-fired power plants 10 

## ring the city of Chicago within the tri-state 11 

## region and pollute our air. 12 

## It's time for our government to stop 13 

## putting profits ahead of people. We have the 14 

## technology to clean up these plants. It's time 15 

## to tell polluters to use it. 16 

## To this end, while EPA's proposed 17 

## Transport Rule is a significant step for clean 18 

## air, we strongly urge the Agency to tighten its 19 

## rule. 20 

## First of all, we urge the EPA to 21 

## support steeper cuts in sulfur dioxide and 22 

## nitrogen oxide which form fine particulate and 23 

## ground-level ozone pollution. 24 

## New science has shown fine particulate

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## and ozone pollution to be more harmful than 2 

## previously thought, so it's imperative that the 3 

## EPA takes further action to eliminate the 4 

## formation of these deadly pollutants. 5 

## Moreover, stronger cuts in sulfur 6 

## dioxide and nitrogen oxides will be vital in 7 

## helping the states meet tougher particulate 8 

## matter and ozone rules your agency is currently 9 

## seeking to revise. 10 

## Second, we urge the EPA to require 11 

## modern pollution controls at all coal plants. 12 

## Under the proposed Transport Rule, 13 

## there is no guarantee that individual plants 14 

## will install pollution controls. 15 

## Allowing older plants in some 16 

## communities to evade pollution controls is 17 

## unacceptable and does nothing for the people who 18 

## live near the plant. 19 

## Moreover, allowing some plants off the 20 

## hook brings up serious environmental justice 21 

## concerns which seems at odds with EPA's new 22 

## initiative to address environmental justice 23 

## disparities. 24 

## We applaud EPA for its work to reduce

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## emissions through dirty coal plants, but more 2 

## needs to be done to reduce emissions from power 3 

## plants. 4 

## For people who suffer from lung 5 

## disease, clean air is not a luxury. It's a 6 

## requirement. 7 

## Therefore, we urge U.S. EPA to tighten 8 

## the proposed Clean Air Transport Rule to ensure 9 

## all people are protected. 10 

## Thank you for your consideration. 11 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you both very 12 

## much. 13 

## Let me just ask, any questions or 14 

## comments. 15 

## MS. RODMAN: I do have one question, 16 

## Ashley. 17 

## I was wondering whether there were 18 

## specific areas of EPA concerns that were of 19 

## particular interest to your organization. 20 

## MS. ASHLEY COLLINS: Illinois EPA is 21 

## still modeling how this will impact 22 

## Illinois-specific plants, so we don't exactly 23 

## know right now, but we're hoping once we're done 24 

## with that analysis, we'll develop more thorough

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## written comments in particular. 2 

## MS. RODMAN: Okay. Thank you very 3 

## much. 4 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Any other questions? 5 

## (No response.) 6 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: I would just comment 7 

## I'm impressed that you read the Rule. You look 8 

## like a well-rested individual. 9 

## Thank you both very much. 10 

## MS. ANGELA TIN: Thank you. 11 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Next two speakers, 12 

## please, Jan Gehrig and Daniel Chartier. 13 

## MS. JAN GEHRIG: Good morning. 14 

## Thank you for this opportunity. 15 

## My name is Jan Gehrig. I live at 733 16 

## Holland Lane in Romeoville, Illinois. 17 

## I am a mental health therapist by 18 

## profession retired after 15 years from the Will 19 

## County Health Department. 20 

## In addition, I have over 20 years 21 

## experience with grassroots movements regarding 22 

## social justice issues. 23 

## Today I am here as president and 24 

## representative of Cool Joliet, a recently formed

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## coalition of citizens and environmental groups 2 

## in the greater Joliet area. 3 

## Cool Joliet is concerned about the 4 

## water we drink, the food grown from our soil, 5 

## but, most especially, about the air we breathe. 6 

## I have two little grandsons, both of 7 

## whom suffer from asthma. I have a daughter who 8 

## suffers from asthma. Breathing treatments, 9 

## medication, inhalers are constant companions of 10 

## all three. 11 

## Even very small children learn to keep 12 

## the inhaler handy lest they have an attack. 13 

## Air becomes a hazard to these children 14 

## largely due to the pollutants in our air. 15 

## Now, if there was no possible 16 

## solution, we would be forced to tolerate the 17 

## situation. 18 

## Midwest Generation is choosing to 19 

## address the problem in some of its plants as 20 

## evidenced by tentative plans to install 21 

## scrubbers on plants in Joliet west of the river. 22 

## As Joliet residents, we are grateful 23 

## that Midwest Generation will be cleaning up some 24 

## of its coal power plants because of power plant

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## rules adopted by the state of Illinois. 2 

## But don't we all deserve clean air? 3 

## Midwest Generation is choosing to slip by, 4 

## suggesting they're actually addressing the 5 

## problems which they alone have created. 6 

## Midwest Generation has the ability to 7 

## install pollution controls in all of their 8 

## plants. 9 

## The question is do they have the will 10 

## to do the right thing. 11 

## There is no question this is a mandate 12 

## to act. These coal-powered plants can be 13 

## converted to natural gas, pollution-control 14 

## devices installed or the plant should be closed. 15 

## To continue as planned is not an option. 16 

## It's really shameful that we live in a 17 

## country with all the technology, all the wealth, 18 

## but sometimes without the will to do what is 19 

## right. 20 

## We will not stand aside. We call on 21 

## Midwest Generation to address the pollution in 22 

## all of its plants now. 23 

## Anything less is a vote for increased 24 

## deaths related to polluted air.

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## We also call on the U.S. EPA as part 2 

## of the Transport Rule to not allow for cap and 3 

## trade of these deadly pollutants. 4 

## All plants should be required to 5 

## install pollution controls. Polluters shouldn't 6 

## be allowed to pick what plants they clean up 7 

## when the plants are a threat to public health. 8 

## Thank you for your attention to these 9 

## concerns of our Joliet citizens. 10 

## MR. DAN CHARTIER: Good morning. 11 

## My name is Dan Chartier. I'm the 12 

## director of Environmental Markets and Air 13 

## Quality Programs at the Edison Electric 14 

## Institute in Washington, DC. 15 

## EEI is the association of U.S. 16 

## shareholder-owned electric companies. Our 17 

## members serve 95 percent of the ultimate 18 

## customers in the shareholder-owned segment in 19 

## the industry, and we represent approximately 20 

## 70 percent of the U.S. electric power industry. 21 

## Let me begin by saying that EEI shares 22 

## a commitment with the Environmental Protection 23 

## Agency to reduce emissions for power-generating 24 

## facilities and is generally supportive of the

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## policy objectives underlying EPA's proposed 2 

## Transport Rule. 3 

## In fact, the electric power industry 4 

## has already made significant progress in 5 

## reducing emissions in sulfur dioxide, nitrogen 6 

## oxide, even while the nation has consumed more 7 

## energy and the economy has grown. 8 

## In particular, national SO2 emissions 9 

## from power plants in 2009 were 64 percent lower 10 

## than in 1990, and national power plant NOx 11 

## emissions declined 70 percent over the same 12 

## period. 13 

## Further, power generation of NOx 14 

## emissions during the ozone season in the 15 

## 20-state region covered by the NOx Budget 16 

## Trading Program of Eastern U.S. have declined 17 

## 81 percent since 1990. 18 

## In order to continue to effectively 19 

## produce electricity and reduce emissions in the 20 

## electric sector, we need clear, coordinated and 21 

## flexible regulations that provide certainty for 22 

## power companies to plan multibillion-dollar 23 

## investments, many of which must serve decades 24 

## into the future.

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## Only through carefully crafted 2 

## regulations can EEI members continue to minimize 3 

## costs to consumers and impacts on shareholders, 4 

## avoid straining natural gas supply and prices, 5 

## and continue efficient and reliable electric 6 

## generation using diverse domestic energy 7 

## resources. 8 

## While some of our member companies 9 

## have stated that they are able to meet the 10 

## requirements of the proposed rule due to some 11 

## combination of individual company approaches to 12 

## addressing environmental issues, state 13 

## requirements, settlement agreements, fuel mix or 14 

## other factors, other EI members have concerns 15 

## regarding the proposed Transport Rule. 16 

## One concern is the proposed Transport 17 

## Rule establishes new reduction requirements that 18 

## must be met only 6 and 30 months after the final 19 

## Transport Rule is issued. 20 

## Some of our member companies have 21 

## expressed concern that EPA's assumptions 22 

## regarding their current control technology 23 

## projects may be inaccurate and that they will 24 

## have difficulty in achieving the initial 2012

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## compliance deadlines. 2 

## There is also concern by some 3 

## companies that simultaneously adding controls at 4 

## many units can stress labor, materials and state 5 

## and local regulatory agencies, and that 6 

## completing simultaneous control installations by 7 

## the end of 2013 to meet 2014's compliance 8 

## deadline is unrealistic. 9 

## This may be especially true in nine 10 

## states where EGUs would need to reduce their SO2 11 

## emissions by at least 50 percent from 2009 to 12 

## 2014. 13 

## It is important to recognize that some 14 

## EEI member companies believe that the full 15 

## schedule from conceptualization to regulatory 16 

## approval by financial regulators and air quality 17 

## permitting agencies through the construction and 18 

## operation of an SO2 scrubber can take up to 60 19 

## months. 20 

## This assumption stands in stark 21 

## contrast to EPA's estimate that a new scrubber 22 

## can be installed in 27 months. 23 

## EEI believes that it is imperative 24 

## that EPA, the Federal Regulatory Commission, the

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## Department of Energy and states work together to 2 

## utilize all tools available to meet compliance 3 

## targets while maintaining electric system 4 

## reliability. 5 

## EEI has misgivings regarding the 6 

## proposed Transport Rule providing little long 7 

## term certainty because its requirements will be 8 

## superceded in the very near future. 9 

## EPA mentions in the proposal that it 10 

## is likely to alter this proposal to address 11 

## wintertime emissions related to attaining the 24 12 

## hour PM2.5 standard. 13 

## EPA will also issue a separate 14 

## proposal regarding NOx emissions related to the 15 

## 1997 ozone standard. 16 

## EPA has also indicated that it will 17 

## issue a Transport Rule II related to a tightened 18 

## ozone standard, and it is almost certain that 19 

## EPA will propose an additional major Transport 20 

## Rule by 2013 to address more stringent late 2011 21 

## National Ambient Air Quality Standard for 22 

## particulate matter. 23 

## These rules are all in addition to the 24 

## power generator MACT rule, which will not be

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## finalized until late 2011, about six months 2 

## after the final Transport Rule and which will 3 

## greatly influence company decision regarding SO2 4 

## control equipment. 5 

## Apart from our concerns, EEI supports 6 

## several aspects of the flexibility provisions 7 

## EPA has proposed. 8 

## EEI supports, among EPA's stated 9 

## options, the Agency's preferred approach that 10 

## would allow limited interstate trading. 11 

## The alternative approach discussed by 12 

## EPA in rulemaking would provide much less 13 

## flexibility and unnecessarily increase costs of 14 

## emission reductions. 15 

## EEI supports EPA's proposal not to use 16 

## the variability limit approach during 2012 and 17 

## 2013, and to allow banking of surplus emission 18 

## reductions. 19 

## However, even with EPA's preferred 20 

## approach for limiting emissions trading, EEI is 21 

## concerned that some of the companies may choose 22 

## to avoid emissions trading because they would 23 

## seek to avoid the risk that EPA's after-the-fact 24 

## variability analysis brings to the compliance

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## demonstration process. 2 

## EEI is also concerned that trading 3 

## restrictions between Group 1 and Group 2 4 

## facilities can pose a problem for some of our 5 

## other members with service territories that 6 

## cross state lines but where facilities lie 7 

## within the same air shed. 8 

## This concludes my final remarks. 9 

## EEI will be supplementing these oral 10 

## remarks with additional written comments. 11 

## Thank you for the opportunity to 12 

## provide these comments today. 13 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Sure. Anybody have 14 

## any questions? 15 

## (No response.) 16 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: I have just one, Dan. 17 

## You were just talking about some of 18 

## the member companies being concerned about some 19 

## of the assumptions that EPA was maybe being 20 

## inaccurate. 21 

## I assume you're going to provide 22 

## written comments that will expand on that. 23 

## MR. DAN CHARTIER: Absolutely. 24 

## The member companies will specifically

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## address their concerns. We may also take the 2 

## opportunity to summarize some of those concerns 3 

## in EEI's comments for all of its members that 4 

## we'll be submitting. 5 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. Great. Thank 6 

## you both very much. 7 

## Next please, Ryan Howell and Michael 8 

## Johnson. 9 

## Mr. Howell, if you would like to 10 

## begin. 11 

## MR. RYAN HOWELL: Sure. 12 

## I'm the city coordinator for 13 

## Greenpeace Chicago for the front-line program. 14 

## A lot of Pilsen residents I know 15 

## describe a noticeable film on the backs of their 16 

## cars, a gray haze against an otherwise clear sky 17 

## and forces them to keep their windows shut. 18 

## While many have not made the 19 

## connection just yet, they're actually describing 20 

## the fly ash deposited across the neighborhood by 21 

## the Fisk power plant. 22 

## A lot of these residents can feel 23 

## helpless from time to time. Some struggle to 24 

## afford school supplies or any other necessity.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 31 1 

## These families are often left unaware 2 

## of what's actually behind their children's 3 

## ailments or are simply too disenfranchised to 4 

## fight a real fight. 5 

## Although when these residents are 6 

## confronted with the facts, their eyes widen with 7 

## just knowing how to flip the switch on all of 8 

## this. 9 

## They see the possibility of a very 10 

## different future, one without filmy window panes 11 

## and breathing treatments. 12 

## Today we show our solidarity with 13 

## these communities in voicing our support for the 14 

## Transport Rule as an initial step in the right 15 

## direction. 16 

## Many of those living in the shadows of 17 

## coal plants do not have the luxury of choosing 18 

## where they live and see industrial pollution 19 

## loom as an irrefutable fact of life. 20 

## For years residents from Chicago to 21 

## Milwaukee and Detroit to Cleveland and to Toledo 22 

## have been forced to pay a healthcare price, the 23 

## healthcare price of so-called clean, cheap 24 

## energy.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 32 1 

## As Greenpeace's total cost of coal 2 

## demonstrates, when factoring in public health 3 

## and environmental cost of power generation, coal 4 

## ceases to be cheap energy. 5 

## For that reason coal executives will 6 

## undoubtedly argue that clean air is too 7 

## expensive and not the responsibility as a means 8 

## of deflecting attention from the fact that coal 9 

## will soon cease to be a profitable viable energy 10 

## source. 11 

## The American people have generously 12 

## subsidized plant pollution with their 13 

## hard-earned healthcare dollars. 14 

## The Transport Rule helps put the 15 

## burden back on the polluters for the damage they 16 

## cause and places responsibility squarely where 17 

## it belongs, not on the very people being 18 

## victimized by big coal's corporate greed. 19 

## To add insult to injury, many of the 20 

## worst offending plants, like Fisk and Crawford, 21 

## do not serve the communities they pollute and 22 

## rely on utility ratepayers to survive through 23 

## opaque revenue streams like capacity markets. 24 

## By ending public health subsidies and

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 33 1 

## a free lunch for filthy plants, we can ensure 2 

## that energy efficiency and renewable energy also 3 

## have a place at the table when discussing 4 

## compliance with the Transport Rule. Thank you. 5 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much. 6 

## Mr. Johnson. 7 

## MR. MICHAEL JOHNSON: Thank you very 8 

## much. It's a pleasure to be here back in my 9 

## hometown. 10 

## I am Greenpeace's Global Warming 11 

## Senior Analyst in Washington, D.C., and it's a 12 

## pleasure to be here to provide comments today on 13 

## the Transport Rule. 14 

## It's a bittersweet occasion that we're 15 

## here. 16 

## Obviously, there's a great opportunity 17 

## to make strides in reducing significant amounts 18 

## of pollution and providing relief for millions 19 

## of residents across the midwest and across the 20 

## country from coal plant pollution, but, at the 21 

## same time, we're faced with a lot of the facts 22 

## that as many as 36,000 people and $290 billion a 23 

## year are being victimized unnecessarily because 24 

## of coal plant pollution.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 34 1 

## So, really, the 71 percent reduction 2 

## in SO2 and the 52 percent reduction in NOx is a 3 

## great step in the right direction as my 4 

## colleague Ryan Howell mentioned, but here in 5 

## Chicago, obviously, the Fisk and Crawford power 6 

## plants loom large in the landscape. 7 

## More than 300,000 people live within 8 

## 3 miles of each plant, and according to a 9 

## Harvard University study, just these two plants 10 

## alone cause 41 premature deaths, 550 hospital 11 

## admissions and 2800 asthma attacks annually. 12 

## Clearly, as a society, we can and must 13 

## do better than this and tell these utilities to 14 

## either clean up or shut down. 15 

## Greenpeace firmly believes that no one 16 

## should have to die to keep the lights on, so on 17 

## behalf of families who suffer from coal-plant 18 

## pollution day in and day out and thousands of 19 

## our supporters across the midwest and U.S., 20 

## Greenpeace expresses its support of the 21 

## Transport Rule as a means to clean air across 31 22 

## states and the District of Columbia. 23 

## With a cost-to-benefit ratio of more 24 

## than 100 to 1 even industry leaders from Exelon,

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 35 1 

## PSEG and Constellation Energy can see that the 2 

## Transport Rule provides cost-effective 3 

## common-sense protection of public health. 4 

## Based on the Clean Air Act's 42-fold 5 

## return on investment, it stands to reason that 6 

## the Transport Rule promises to deliver many 7 

## similar air quality and cost-of-protection 8 

## benefits of care, and, indeed, go further as it 9 

## should. 10 

## Given the history of backdoor deals, 11 

## especially here in Illinois, with Fisk and 12 

## Crawford, that allow polluters to pick and 13 

## choose which plants to clean up, the Transport 14 

## Rule and EPA should require statewide emissions 15 

## and plant-specific reductions to minimize the 16 

## influence of emissions trading and the fact that 17 

## many of these people in communities from Joliet 18 

## to Chicago are being left behind. 19 

## Not only will the Rule help clear the 20 

## air in the midwest, but, obviously, downstream 21 

## in the northeast as well. 22 

## So the stakes are large, especially 23 

## given the fact that air quality has worsened 24 

## sharply this summer in the northeast due to a

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 36 1 

## warming climate and a record hot year. 2 

## The proposed Transport Rule can also 3 

## help promote energy efficiency as a 4 

## cost-effective alternative to lifelines for 5 

## filthy plants by raising the bar for pollution 6 

## control technology. 7 

## So across these 31 states and District 8 

## of Columbia come 2012, residents will hopefully 9 

## be able to breathe a little easier thanks to 10 

## serious cost-effective reduction of sulfur 11 

## dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions thanks to 12 

## sound rule-making in the public's interest. 13 

## Thank you. 14 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you, guys. 15 

## Any questions. 16 

## MS. RODMAN: I have a couple. 17 

## Mr. Howell, you had environmental 18 

## justice concern. 19 

## Like I mentioned to Ashley, if there 20 

## are specific communities that you're aware of 21 

## that would like to bring to our attention 22 

## environmental concerns related to this rule, I 23 

## would encourage you to do so, either now or in 24 

## written comments you subsequently submit.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 37 1 

## That is indeed a topic we're very 2 

## interested in. Thank you for your remarks in 3 

## that regard. 4 

## Also, this is more of a comment than a 5 

## question again. 6 

## We do in the Rule request comment on 7 

## the relationship between energy efficiency and 8 

## this rule and ways in which this rule could be 9 

## used to promote energy efficiency, and that's 10 

## another topic we're very interested in and, you 11 

## know, we appreciate your comments on that as 12 

## well. 13 

## MR. RYAN HOWELL: Some of the 14 

## communities that at least I'm familiar with 15 

## personally would be the Pilsen community and the 16 

## Little Village community here in Chicago. 17 

## MR. MICHAEL JOHNSON: I would also add 18 

## that there are a variety of plants, especially 19 

## in the midwest in Region 5, especially Lake 20 

## Shore and Bay Shore and Cleveland and Toledo, 21 

## there's River Rouge in Michigan and Valley Plant 22 

## and South Oak Creek Plant in Milwaukee, all of 23 

## these plants have a large number of people 24 

## living within a 3-mile radius, and many of them

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 38 1 

## also have high levels of poverty and EJ 2 

## communities within those areas. 3 

## With respect to energy efficiency, I 4 

## think one of the key issues here is the issue of 5 

## capacity markets and what's being done to 6 

## address a lot of these plants, especially 7 

## merchant plants who are really operating on the 8 

## open market. They're not serving utility 9 

## territories. 10 

## And, as such, they're a little more 11 

## slippery than your traditional plants that serve 12 

## utility territories. 13 

## So I think working with the ISOs is 14 

## going to be key in determining how -- I think 15 

## ISO in New England has been fairly successful in 16 

## using efficiency to bid into some of these 17 

## capacity markets, whether it's demand-side 18 

## response, demand-side management, efficiency 19 

## mechanisms even, even air conditioning side 20 

## cleaning. 21 

## So I think some of those things can 22 

## help to, for one, reduce the capacity prices 23 

## that some of these utilities are receiving as 24 

## subsidies from the rate trade and help to put

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 39 1 

## some of that money back into the pockets of 2 

## people as they're trying to meet their energy 3 

## needs in an affordable way that also reduces 4 

## emissions. 5 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. Great. Thank 6 

## you guys very much. 7 

## Next speakers, please, are Joshua 8 

## Berman and Jerry Mead-Lucero. 9 

## MR. JOSHUA BERMAN: Thank you for the 10 

## opportunity -- 11 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Just want to be sure. 12 

## You're Joshua Berman. 13 

## MR. JOSHUA BERMAN: Yes, that would be 14 

## correct. 15 

## I'm Joshua Berman. I'm an attorney at 16 

## the midwest office of National Resources Defense 17 

## Council, NRDC here in Chicago. 18 

## I just wanted to thank you for the 19 

## opportunity to submit testimony on the U.S. 20 

## EPA's proposed Transport Rule. 21 

## NRDC is a national non-profit public 22 

## interest organization that is dedicated to 23 

## protecting human health in the environment. 24 

## NRDC's decision to open an office in

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 40 1 

## the midwest in 2007 was motivated in part by the 2 

## organization's recognition of the importance of 3 

## air quality and climate change issues in this 4 

## part of the country. 5 

## NRDC currently has over 1.3 million 6 

## members and on-line activists nationwide, 7 

## including nearly 20,000 members in Illinois and 8 

## nearly 7,000 members in Cook County. 9 

## I am here today both to commend the 10 

## EPA on its proposal to significantly reduce 11 

## emissions of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide 12 

## for coal-fired power plants and also to 13 

## encourage the EPA to go even further in reducing 14 

## emissions in its final rule. 15 

## U.S. EPA's proposed regulations are 16 

## both necessary and timely and should be 17 

## strengthened in order to realize the enormous 18 

## potential health benefits that will accrue from 19 

## ensuring the nation's ambient air quality 20 

## standards are achieved throughout the country. 21 

## First, EPA's Transport Rule is 22 

## necessary because air quality in coal plant 23 

## emissions contributes to tens of thousands of 24 

## premature deaths each year, and states such as

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 41 1 

## Illinois cannot accomplish the needed 2 

## improvements in air quality acting alone. 3 

## Pollution emitted from coal-fired 4 

## power plants, including sulfur dioxide and 5 

## nitrogen oxide contributes to a wide range of 6 

## human health impacts, including respiratory 7 

## illness, bronchitis, heart attacks, asthma 8 

## attacks and premature death. 9 

## Based on the number of studies EPA has 10 

## projected that the proposed Transport Rule will 11 

## reduce premature mortality annually by 14,000 to 12 

## 36,000, as well as preventing approximately 13 

## 26,000 hospital admissions and emergency room 14 

## visits and 240,000 asthma attacks each year. 15 

## Moreover, states cannot achieve much 16 

## needed improvements in air quality acting on 17 

## their own. 18 

## The air quality in Cook County, for 19 

## example, is adversely impacted by emissions from 20 

## ten nearby states and other nonattaining areas 21 

## throughout the midwest by interstate pollution. 22 

## Even if federal and state regulations 23 

## were fully enforced in each individual state in 24 

## the midwest, it would be necessary to address

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 42 1 

## such interstate transport and air pollution in 2 

## order for Illinois and other midwestern states 3 

## to fully achieve ambient air quality standards. 4 

## Second, EPA's regulation of coal-fired 5 

## power plant is timely because reductions from 6 

## these highly-polluting facilities are long 7 

## overdue. 8 

## The vast majority of sulfur dioxide 9 

## and nitrogen oxide pollution emitted by 10 

## coal-fired power plants comes from the 11 

## 50 percent of facilities that lack basic 12 

## emission controls for these pollutants. 13 

## These plants are, for the most part, 14 

## decades old and were initially grandfathered 15 

## when the Clean Air Act was passed, and 16 

## improperly continue to operate today much as 17 

## they did when they were built in the 1950s and 18 

## 60s. 19 

## The means to achieve lower emissions 20 

## of SO2 and NOx have long been available. 21 

## Between fuel switching and readily 22 

## implemented control technologies for reducing 23 

## emissions of these pollutants, there is no 24 

## question that EPA's proposed emission reduction

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 43 1 

## and be quickly and affordably achieved. 2 

## Coal plants have been allowed to 3 

## operate inexpensively only by externalizing 4 

## billions of dollars in health costs on citizens 5 

## nationwide. 6 

## It is high time for these plants to 7 

## begin to internalize some of the costs they have 8 

## long foisted on the public. 9 

## Finally, on behalf of NRDC's hundreds 10 

## of thousands of members living in areas 11 

## adversely affected by out-of-state air 12 

## pollution, I urge U.S. EPA to go further in the 13 

## final version of the Transport Rule by requiring 14 

## additional reductions in pollution from 15 

## coal-fired power plants. 16 

## Given the thousands of lives at stake, 17 

## the millions of lives that are currently 18 

## impacted by poor air quality, and the coal 19 

## industry's long-running failure to install 20 

## modern pollution controls on aging, dirty coal 21 

## plants, EPA must not shy away from its duty to 22 

## give full effect to the Clean Air Act's stated 23 

## goal of protecting and enhancing the quality of 24 

## the nation's air resources and promoting the

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 44 1 

## public health and welfare and the productive 2 

## capacity of its population. 3 

## I should also just note that these are 4 

## general comments. NRDC will be submitting much 5 

## more detailed written comments at a later date. 6 

## Thank you. 7 

## MR. CLARK: Thank you very much. 8 

## Jerry, when you start, if you could 9 

## spell your name for the court reporter. 10 

## MR. JERRY MEAD-LUCERO: Sure. My name 11 

## is Jerry Mead, M-e-a-d, hyphen, Lucero, 12 

## L-u-c-e-r-o, and I'm with the Pilsen 13 

## Environmental Rights and Reform Organization. 14 

## PERRO is our acronym, and we are here 15 

## to support the Transport Rule as a first step in 16 

## hopefully what will be a much more evolved 17 

## process of reducing power plant pollution. 18 

## You asked earlier about EJ communities 19 

## in the areas around these power plants. I'm 20 

## from one of them, so I can tell you about it. 21 

## I'm from the Pilsen community. Pilsen 22 

## is a low income or working class Latino, 23 

## primarily Latino community in Chicago here on 24 

## the southwest side.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 45 1 

## We have located right in our 2 

## neighborhood the Fisk power plant, literally 3 

## across the street from a park, down the street 4 

## from three schools, across the street from 5 

## numerous apartment buildings. 6 

## There's also the Crawford plant in 7 

## Little Village, which is a neighboring 8 

## neighborhood to ours. It's very similar to 9 

## ours, Latino population, primarily low income. 10 

## I think for Pilsen the last I checked 11 

## the median income was about 26,000 a year, so 12 

## we're definitely one of the lower-income 13 

## communities in Chicago, and all the communities 14 

## that surround us that are within half mile, 15 

## mile, mile and a half from both Fisk and 16 

## Crawford would be similar communities, either 17 

## Latino or mostly Latino, African-American, 18 

## mostly low income. 19 

## So when you talk about communities, 20 

## you're talking communities that I live and I 21 

## come from. 22 

## We here in Chicago have been working 23 

## for quite a few years, almost going on a decade 24 

## now, trying to reduce the pollution from the

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 46 1 

## Fisk and Crawford power plants. 2 

## We are in the midst of a major effort 3 

## right now to try to pass an ordinance in Chicago 4 

## that would try to clean up these plants. 5 

## What's disturbing to us is that we 6 

## know for these two plants alone there's about 40 7 

## premature deaths a year and about 2,800 asthma 8 

## attacks a year from just Fisk and Crawford. 9 

## So it's disturbing to hear that even 10 

## if we were successful in passing an ordinance 11 

## locally here in Chicago to reduce those health 12 

## effects that we'd still be getting pollution 13 

## from nearby states, and that you're talking tens 14 

## of thousands when you add in all those other 15 

## plants. 16 

## I wasn't even aware until this 17 

## testimony of the scale of the problem. 18 

## If you think about it, tens of 19 

## thousands, I mean, you know, we talk about 20 

## tragedies like 9/11 or even the most recent 21 

## tragedy in Pakistan where they're taking deaths 22 

## in the thousands, we're talking about tens of 23 

## thousands from these power plants. 24 

## Obviously, unfortunately, the problem

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 47 1 

## we deal with in our communities is trying to 2 

## explain to people that because this is a 3 

## cumulative effect over time, it's hard for 4 

## people to get a grasp of how dangerous these 5 

## places are. 6 

## We know that we're talking about tens 7 

## of thousands deaths. That's a huge tragedy 8 

## that's occurring in our country. We need to get 9 

## a handle on that. 10 

## So it's interesting, too, a few years 11 

## ago when we started working on this issue of 12 

## trying to clean up the Fisk and Crawford power 13 

## plants, we actually had a visitor here from 14 

## Canada, from a radio program in Canada that was 15 

## concerned about the power plant emissions from 16 

## our locations to them. 17 

## That was the first time I became aware 18 

## of the impact over a wide area that these 19 

## polluters can have. 20 

## So, obviously, this Transport Rule is 21 

## a good step in the overall process of dealing 22 

## with these pollution sources. 23 

## We are hoping to deal with them here 24 

## more locally. The state of Illinois is passing

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 48 1 

## regulations over -- over which the time period 2 

## is much shorter on these, but we're, you know, 3 

## glad to see this is going to be tackled at the 4 

## interstate level as well. 5 

## So I appreciate you giving us the 6 

## opportunity to talk on this. 7 

## Unfortunately, communities like Pilsen 8 

## and Little Village rarely get their voices heard 9 

## on these matters. 10 

## Pilsen is a place that's impacted by 11 

## multiple pollution sources so, you know, dealing 12 

## with a problem like this, our number one 13 

## pollution problem, would be a huge step forward 14 

## in terms of improving the health of our 15 

## communities. 16 

## We work very closely with the Allejo 17 

## Medical Center which is a medical center in our 18 

## neighborhood which has told us that they have 19 

## incredibly high rates of asthma compared to 20 

## other parts of the state, other parts of the 21 

## city, so this is obviously a very big concern to 22 

## us. 23 

## Thank you for giving us an opportunity 24 

## to have our voices heard on this matter.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 49 1 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you, guys, very 2 

## much. 3 

## Anybody any questions. 4 

## (No response.) 5 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: I think we're okay. 6 

## Yes, appreciate it very much. 7 

## Thank you. 8 

## Next two speakers, please, Mr. John 9 

## Ailey and Byron, Mr. Byron Burrows, please. 10 

## Mr. Ailey, you are welcome to start, 11 

## and if you would spell your name also, that 12 

## would be great. 13 

## MR. JOHN AILEY: Good morning. 14 

## My name is John Ailey, A-i-l-e-y. 15 

## Also use Jack. 16 

## I'm a resident of the Little Village 17 

## neighborhood in Chicago. It's the southwest 18 

## side section of Chicago. 19 

## It's a section of Chicago, as my 20 

## colleague from Pilsen Environmental Rights and 21 

## Reform Organization mentioned, primarily Latino 22 

## community. 23 

## We have been working for a very long 24 

## time on the issue of two coal-fired power plants

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 50 1 

## in the City of Chicago. 2 

## I should also mention that besides 3 

## working with PERRO, I'm an activist with Green 4 

## Party. 5 

## Of course, my remarks should just be 6 

## imputed to me, if I say something that somebody 7 

## else may disagree with, but I believe this is 8 

## the consensus that the basic point is we do 9 

## indeed support that these rules should be 10 

## passed. 11 

## The second point that I would like to 12 

## emphasize is looking at your alternatives for 13 

## enforcing this, to me it appears that the second 14 

## alternative that you are proposing would be the 15 

## best one in terms of the environmental justice 16 

## standpoint. 17 

## Part of the issue is that in 18 

## particular we are very familiar with these two 19 

## plants. There's a huge population density in 20 

## the surrounding area. It's also a relatively 21 

## low income area. 22 

## If plants are allowed to trade, we're 23 

## afraid that what's going to happen is that these 24 

## two plants, which are relatively expensive to

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 51 1 

## retrofit, and relatively small, the companies 2 

## will avoid or postpone the retrofits that are 3 

## needed and that our communities will continue to 4 

## suffer the bad effect from these plants. 5 

## And so, therefore, we feel that a fair 6 

## approach, better approach would be to look at 7 

## what is the population density around the 8 

## various plants, try to set limits prioritizing, 9 

## shall I say, those plants that are closest to 10 

## large population densities. I feel that would 11 

## be a fair way to do it. 12 

## As an electrician, well, a retired 13 

## electrician, I certainly realize the need for 14 

## electricity, and I'm not trying to say that we 15 

## don't need -- we need a reliable electric supply 16 

## in the country. 17 

## I feel that we need to move very 18 

## rapidly away from using coal. There are all 19 

## kinds of bad effects of coal besides the SO2 and 20 

## the NOx and so forth. 21 

## Certainly climate change is a huge 22 

## issue, and EPA does have the ability to regulate 23 

## that also, and we hope that they will take this 24 

## up also, but, in any case, to reiterate, yes,

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 52 1 

## this rule is a good step which needs to be done. 2 

## I support that second alternative. I 3 

## think that would be the fairest way of 4 

## determining environmental justice to implement 5 

## the Rule. 6 

## Thank you for your attention. 7 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Absolutely. Thank 8 

## you very much. Mr. Burrows. 9 

## MR. BYRON BURROWS: Thank you. 10 

## I'm Byron Burrows, and I'm Manager of 11 

## Air Programs with Tampa Electric Company in 12 

## Florida. 13 

## Appreciate the opportunity to comment 14 

## on the proposed Transport Rule. 15 

## Tampa Electric is a midsized utility 16 

## that has been proactive in making emission 17 

## reductions, and we have a balanced fuel 18 

## portfolio about half coal and half natural gas. 19 

## We just completed a 10-year 20 

## $1.2 billion pollution reduction initiative, and 21 

## Tampa Electric generally supports EPA's 22 

## proposal. 23 

## We do have concerns with the proposed 24 

## method of allocation.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 53 1 

## We do support EPA's preferred 2 

## approach, which allows limited interstate 3 

## trading among power plants but assures that each 4 

## state will meet its pollution control 5 

## obligations. 6 

## We believe this is a reasonable 7 

## approach to meeting reduction goals and 8 

## minimizing cost increase for power unless the 9 

## allocations are too restrictive. 10 

## The first alternative, 11 

## intrastate trading only, is unfavorable for our 12 

## customers because it unnecessarily limits the 13 

## trading market and the ability to achieve the 14 

## lowest cost reductions, and would cause 15 

## unnecessary increases in the cost of electricity 16 

## at a time when we can least afford it. 17 

## The second alternative could be even 18 

## more detrimental because it further reduces 19 

## compliance, flexibility and ignores the highly 20 

## successful market-based system of emission 21 

## reduction. 22 

## This option intuitively results in 23 

## higher overall compliance costs without 24 

## guaranteeing any additional environmental

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 54 1 

## benefit. 2 

## The proposed allocation method, 3 

## however, penalizes companies like Tampa Electric 4 

## that made early reductions to reduce emissions. 5 

## As I said, TEC has been a leader in 6 

## making emission reductions. We've made a 90 7 

## percent system-wide reduction in SO2 and 8 

## nitrogen oxides over '98 levels, yet the 9 

## proposal doesn't provide Tampa Electric with 10 

## sufficient sulfur dioxide allowances to even 11 

## operate within our current permit limits. 12 

## So I believe it's important for EPA to 13 

## avoid penalizing this type of early action. 14 

## We will propose options, some of which 15 

## were mentioned in EPA's preamble or EPA's 16 

## proposal to accomplish this in our written 17 

## comments. 18 

## Good faith efforts like Tampa 19 

## Electric's to reduce emissions beyond 20 

## requirements have been ignored by EPA in the 21 

## default proposal, setting a troubling precedent. 22 

## I've also noted some apparent errors 23 

## in input data used in the model, and, as 24 

## mentioned before, will provide comments.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 55 1 

## Given the short period of time to 2 

## evaluate, that's been a recurring theme I guess 3 

## in talking with our other -- our peers, 4 

## colleagues. 5 

## If we could have -- I know I've gotten 6 

## a lot of information on the website, 7 

## spreadsheets with maybe formulas and links. 8 

## It's just data in there. 9 

## Sometimes it's difficult and 10 

## time-consuming to decipher how we got those, so 11 

## that would be helpful, and then maybe we can get 12 

## with the specific people, some specific people 13 

## on that. 14 

## But we request EPA give strong 15 

## consideration to employing allocation methods 16 

## that avoid disenfranchising early action in the 17 

## future. Thank you. 18 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you both. 19 

## MR. NAPOLITANO: I just have one 20 

## comment. 21 

## Depending on when you actually checked 22 

## our website, we have put up something that is I 23 

## think along the lines of what you're interested 24 

## in, more details on how the application actually

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 56 1 

## works, so if you've not checked in the last two 2 

## weeks, there is additional information up there. 3 

## MR. BYRON BURROWS: Thank you. 4 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Anybody else? 5 

## (No response.) 6 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you, guys, both 7 

## very much. 8 

## I'll call the next two speakers here 9 

## in a second. 10 

## Let me just remind anyone here that's 11 

## interested in speaking, feel free to sign up at 12 

## the desk outside. 13 

## The next two speakers will be Janice 14 

## Nolen and Art Cerullo. Please. 15 

## MR. ARTHUR CERULLO: Good morning. 16 

## I'm Arthur Cerullo. I think I'm going 17 

## to go before Janice this morning if I may. 18 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Absolutely. 19 

## MR. ARTHUR CERULLO: I'm a member of 20 

## the board of directors of the American Lung 21 

## Association. 22 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Art, can you spell 23 

## you name. 24 

## MR. ARTHUR CERULLO: C-e-r-u-l-l-o.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 57 1 

## First name is Arthur, A-r-t-h-u-r. 2 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thanks. 3 

## MR. ARTHUR CERULLO: I'm a member of 4 

## the board of directors of the American Lung 5 

## Association and the immediate past Speaker of 6 

## Our National Nationwide Assembly. 7 

## I'm a senior partner at Drummond & 8 

## Drummond in Portland, Maine, and I often commute 9 

## to and from work on my bicycle. 10 

## I have been a volunteer for the Lung 11 

## Association for more than 22 years, and I want 12 

## to thank you for the opportunity to share the 13 

## position of the American Lung Association on 14 

## EPA's proposed Clean Air Transport Rule. 15 

## The American Lung Association saves 16 

## lives through the prevention of lung disease and 17 

## the promotion of lung health. 18 

## Fighting for clean air, healthy air, 19 

## is central to our mission. 20 

## Key to that fight has been our work to 21 

## support stronger measures to clean up nature 22 

## sources of pollution, especially coal-fired 23 

## power plants. 24 

## We are pleased that the U.S.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 58 1 

## Environmental Protection Agency has moved ahead 2 

## to help states like Illinois fight for healthy 3 

## air by requiring the cleanup of pollution that 4 

## blows into these states from outside. 5 

## States can't do this on their own. 6 

## States need the Transport Rule to stop that 7 

## pollution at the state line. 8 

## The American Lung Association calls on 9 

## the EPA to not only adopt the framework of the 10 

## Clean Air Transport Rule but to strengthen the 11 

## limits on the emissions nationwide. 12 

## EPA needs to take the steps to provide 13 

## even greater protection for public health. 14 

## Air pollution is coming into Cook 15 

## today from ten different states, not just the 16 

## neighboring states of Indiana, Wisconsin and 17 

## Michigan, but states as far as away as Iowa, 18 

## Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio and even 19 

## Pennsylvania and West Virginia send ozone and 20 

## particles into Cook County. 21 

## This rule would require that plants in 22 

## 31 states, including Illinois, cut the pollution 23 

## they send across state lines. That pollution is 24 

## toxic.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 59 1 

## Coal-fired power plants emit millions 2 

## of tons of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide. 3 

## These two gasses are so dangerous that 4 

## on their own EPA recently strengthened the 5 

## limits on how much of each is safe. 6 

## More importantly, sulfur dioxide and 7 

## nitrogen dioxide are also the raw ingredients 8 

## that help form other, even deadlier pollutants 9 

## which are ozone and fine particles. 10 

## Nitrogen dioxide is a key component of 11 

## ozone smog. Ozone burns our lungs and airways 12 

## causing them to become inflamed and swollen. 13 

## Breathing ozone can cause chest pain 14 

## and cough, aggravate asthma and increase 15 

## emergency room visits and hospital admissions 16 

## for respiratory problems. Breathing ozone can 17 

## kill. 18 

## Sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide 19 

## both react to form fine particulate matter, 20 

## microscopic aerosols that we inhale deep into 21 

## our lungs. 22 

## Those particles can cause asthma 23 

## attacks, heart attacks, strokes and early death. 24 

## Children and teens, seniors, people

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 60 1 

## with chronic lung diseases like asthma, people 2 

## with cardiovascular disease and diabetics face 3 

## greater risk from these pollutants. 4 

## Healthy adults who work or exercise 5 

## outdoors, including bicyclists like me, can 6 

## suffer from breathing this pollution. 7 

## In 2014, the Rule as proposed will 8 

## decrease sulfur dioxide pollution by 72 percent 9 

## and nitrogen oxide pollution by 52 percent. 10 

## Here are just a few of the ways those 11 

## reductions will benefit public health: 12 

## 14,000 to 36,000 lives saved each 13 

## year. 23,000 heart attacks avoided each year. 14 

## 26,000 visits or admissions to the emergency 15 

## room avoided each year. And children will have 16 

## 230,000 fewer asthma attacks each year. 17 

## Let me emphasize. I say each year. 18 

## These benefits repeat over and over 19 

## again year after year. 20 

## Just taking the proposed rule as is, 21 

## the benefits far outweigh the costs, as EPA 22 

## estimates for both show. 23 

## By 2014, the benefits of the lives 24 

## saved as well as the benefits of the medical

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 61 1 

## care avoided, days not missed at work and 2 

## school, total between 120 and $290 billion a 3 

## year. 4 

## By contrast, annual costs in 2014 will 5 

## be many times less. Estimated to be 6 

## $2.8 billion per year. 7 

## That makes the benefits more than 40 8 

## to over 100 times greater than the cost. 9 

## In fact, with benefit-cost ratios like 10 

## that, EPA can and should require even more 11 

## reductions. 12 

## EPA should set a much tighter national 13 

## limit on sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide 14 

## emissions. 15 

## We call on EPA to set a nationwide 16 

## limit on sulfur dioxide equivalent to 17 

## 1.75 million tons by 2014. 18 

## Nitrogen oxide limits need to be 19 

## lowered to 900,000 tons by 2014. 20 

## The control technology is widely 21 

## available and effective. The investment in 22 

## cleaning up even more means that we would see 23 

## greater benefits including more lives saved each 24 

## year.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 62 1 

## We fully expect to hear dire 2 

## predictions about the economic impact of this 3 

## rule on the nation. 4 

## Those come up every time we try to 5 

## clean up pollution. They come up despite 6 

## 40 years evidence to the contrary. 7 

## The Clean Air Act has been in place 8 

## since 1970, and we have cut pollution and yet 9 

## grown our population and our economy since then. 10 

## Too often, however, the critics fail 11 

## to mention that pollution kills people, that 12 

## tens of thousands of lives are lost each year, 13 

## year after year. 14 

## We at the American Lung Association 15 

## call on the EPA to take this opportunity to do 16 

## more to protect the air we breath and the lives 17 

## of our families and friends. 18 

## Thank you for your attention. 19 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you. 20 

## MS. JANICE NOLEN: Good morning. Nice 21 

## to see you all. 22 

## My name is Janice Nolen. That's 23 

## J-a-n-i-c-e, N-o-l-e-n, and I'm Assistant Vice 24 

## President for National Policy and Advocacy with

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 63 1 

## the American Lung Association. 2 

## Thank you for the opportunity to 3 

## comment this morning. 4 

## One of our dedicated volunteers, Art 5 

## Cerullo, has presented an overview on the key 6 

## issues on behalf of our board. 7 

## The American Lung Association will be 8 

## providing extensive comment on the Rule in 9 

## writing, so today I'm going to just emphasize a 10 

## few points. 11 

## First, we are pleased with EPA's 12 

## decision to create a framework for setting 13 

## emissions reductions under the "good neighbor" 14 

## provisions of the Clean Air Act. 15 

## Such a framework allows EPA to follow 16 

## a strong logical pathway forward. 17 

## Under this framework, EPA assesses in 18 

## detail the contribution from sources in each 19 

## upwind state to the pollution levels in downwind 20 

## states. 21 

## Such a careful analysis provides 22 

## strong evidence of pollution from these 31 23 

## states and the District of Columbia burdens 24 

## people living in these nonattainment and

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 64 1 

## maintenance areas. 2 

## Like many others, I was surprised by 3 

## how far these plumes flow. 4 

## We often think that winds only move 5 

## west to east, so the information that pollution 6 

## from my home state of Tennessee adds to the 7 

## burden here in Illinois is compelling evidence 8 

## that we're all in this together. 9 

## EPA recognized that the national air 10 

## quality standards evolve, changing as our 11 

## scientific knowledge grows. 12 

## Growing research teaches us more 13 

## specifics about the kinds of pollutants, their 14 

## levels and the exposure patterns that can harm 15 

## us. 16 

## We need to be able to put that new 17 

## information into a real-world setting as soon as 18 

## possible, without having to carry out extended 19 

## delays sorting through our national toolbox to 20 

## figure out the best ways to fix the exhaust 21 

## pipe. 22 

## EPA will need to move this framework 23 

## forward soon. The standards that form the basis 24 

## for these calculations are sadly out of date.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 65 1 

## In particular, the 1997 standard that 2 

## EPA used is now 13 years old, and was superceded 3 

## by a tighter standard than 75 parts per billion. 4 

## Now that 75 parts per billion 5 

## standard, also widely recognized as inadequate, 6 

## is being reconsidered and should be replaced by 7 

## the standard that will be coming out August 8 

## 31st. 9 

## The 75-parts-per-billion standard 10 

## which -- the 2006 PM 2.5 standards, which 11 

## includes the ancient and woefully inadequate 12 

## 15-parts-per-million standard for particles are 13 

## also under review with proposals scheduled to 14 

## come out soon. 15 

## So why not use, for example, the 16 

## 75-parts-per-billion level for ozone in your 17 

## calculation. 18 

## I suspect the simple answer is that 19 

## there are no nonattainment areas or maintenance 20 

## areas for that 75-parts-per-billion standard 21 

## established. 22 

## However, the areas still in 23 

## nonattainment for the 84 parts-per-billion 24 

## standard are certainly in nonattainment for that

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 66 1 

## 75-parts-per-billion level, and many areas in 2 

## maintenance for 84 parts per billion also 3 

## violate the 75 parts per billion. 4 

## We know adverse health effects occur 5 

## at levels below 75 parts per billion. 6 

## Should EPA at least not include that 7 

## level in the assessment for a federal 8 

## implementation plan. 9 

## In fact, EPA has design values and 10 

## monitoring data for all counties with ozone 11 

## monitors. 12 

## You can readily tell which counties 13 

## failed to meet the 75-parts-per-billion level 14 

## using that data. 15 

## EPA could assess the burden upwind 16 

## states are placing on these downwind states just 17 

## using the counties with monitors as reference 18 

## points. 19 

## As it is, the Clean Air Transport Rule 20 

## becomes weaker than is needed to address the 21 

## significant interstate transport of ozone based 22 

## on the 75-parts-per-billion standard. 23 

## Yet this rule is critical to helping 24 

## states to protect public health.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 67 1 

## We urge you today therefore to set 2 

## stronger caps. 3 

## We urge that the limits should be 4 

## 900,000 tons of nitrogen dioxide and 5 

## 1.75 million tons of sulfur dioxide by 2014. 6 

## This tool, the Clean Air Transport 7 

## Rule, cuts some of the most widespread and 8 

## dangerous pollutants in our nation. 9 

## As proposed this rule will save 10 

## between 14,000 and 36,000 lives a year. 11 

## This Transport Rule truly helps us to 12 

## become better neighbors, but we still need to 13 

## work hard to become good neighbors. 14 

## Thank you. 15 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you both very 16 

## much. Any questions? 17 

## (No response.) 18 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Appreciate it very 19 

## much. 20 

## We have one more speaker that is here 21 

## as I understand, Mr. Richard Stuckey. 22 

## Can we just ask is there anyone else 23 

## in the room that is interested in speaking that 24 

## hasn't signed up.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 68 1 

## MR. RICHARD STUCKEY: Good morning. 2 

## My name is Richard Stuckey. That's 3 

## S-t-u-c-k-e-y. 4 

## Than you for letting me address you 5 

## this morning. 6 

## I'd like to thank the Administration 7 

## and commend the EPA for taking action to tackle 8 

## the serious impacts of transportation pollution 9 

## from coal-fired power plant that have been 10 

## largely ignored for decades and cannot be dealt 11 

## with by local regulations. 12 

## Just for the record I'm a resident of 13 

## Chicago and have two daughters, both whom suffer 14 

## to some extent from respiratory problems, which 15 

## we largely attribute to pollution from the 16 

## coal-fired power plants in Chicago. 17 

## I'm a member of the Sierra Club, 18 

## Greenpeace, NRDC and various other environmental 19 

## organizations who will be addressing you today, 20 

## and I thoroughly support the presentation you'll 21 

## hear from the organizations and their members 22 

## who are speaking individually. 23 

## I am speaking as a private citizen 24 

## today.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 69 1 

## I'd like to thank you for the 2 

## excellent research that's been done into the 3 

## costs and the benefits for implementing the 4 

## proposed changes, particularly the power plant 5 

## presentation that you made available to us was 6 

## excellent in outlining the very real dangers 7 

## resulting to the health of the nation from 8 

## unchecked pollution that travels across 9 

## boundaries, and the fact of the benefits from 10 

## reducing the pollution or the cost of doing so, 11 

## and today you heard from many organizations who 12 

## said you have missed many of the benefits, and 13 

## the benefits in fact are significantly larger. 14 

## This alone should make it obvious that 15 

## the changes proposed should be implemented 16 

## vigorously in as short a possible timeframe as 17 

## you can provide. 18 

## I encourage you to implement the 19 

## tightest rules that you possibly can. 20 

## We have heard from a number of people 21 

## who believe the rules that are proposed aren't 22 

## as tight as they should be. 23 

## And, also, the most aggressive 24 

## schedule, which I think you've already heard,

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 70 1 

## attempts to procrastinate and to delay the 2 

## schedule. I think that is the wrong thing to 3 

## do. We need to do this as fast as possible 4 

## because the benefits are so huge and the 5 

## population is growing older and much more 6 

## susceptible to the dangers of pollution than it 7 

## has been in the past. 8 

## The costs are going up every day we 9 

## delay and procrastinate in implementing these 10 

## rules. And, unfortunately, the power industry, 11 

## with maybe some exceptions you heard today, has 12 

## a long track record of procrastination and 13 

## avoiding implementation of these Clean Air laws. 14 

## I think it's particularly important in 15 

## writing your rules that we deal with the worst 16 

## offenders. 17 

## We have a couple of those things in 18 

## the Fisk and Crawford power plants here, truly 19 

## terrible polluters, and they have avoided their 20 

## responsibilities for years to clean up their 21 

## act, and we should make sure that the rules do 22 

## not allow them to evade their responsibilities 23 

## and to continue to pollute by buying rights 24 

## elsewhere. This is not the right solution to

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 71 1 

## addressing the problems of the local residents 2 

## as you've heard. 3 

## Implementation of the proposals you 4 

## have made have a major benefit that is not 5 

## mentioned. 6 

## The argument that the power industry 7 

## has benefitted greatly from the ability -- to 8 

## exploiting the ability under existing law to 9 

## shift the responsibility, the cost of getting 10 

## power to people who don't use that power. 11 

## There's a whole model in 12 

## transportation of pollution which proves that 13 

## many people are paying the costs of power but 14 

## not getting the benefits from it. 15 

## The charts show that, and so we would 16 

## like to make sure that people who benefit from 17 

## the power pay for the full costs, the full cost 18 

## of procuring that power, not shift them on to 19 

## populations. 20 

## You might argue for just a little 21 

## cooperation they're paying for their power one 22 

## way or another, but it's very clear the costs 23 

## are being shifted to people who have no benefit 24 

## from the power.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 72 1 

## So if we were able to do this, the 2 

## cost of electricity would undoubtedly go up 3 

## slightly, it is only slightly, but this would 4 

## give a better chance to alternative sources of 5 

## power. 6 

## We radically need to improve renewable 7 

## sources of power. We have a better chance of 8 

## competing if the current producers who are using 9 

## dirty technology are paying the full costs of 10 

## what they're doing. 11 

## Even with the cuts proposed in 12 

## pollution, there will still be a large amount of 13 

## pollution going on, and so we encourage you to 14 

## make the rules as tight as you possibly can. 15 

## I think that's enough for today. 16 

## Thank you very much. 17 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. Thank you very 18 

## much, Mr. Stuckey. 19 

## Any questions. 20 

## (No response.) 21 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: I guess not. Thanks 22 

## very much. 23 

## MR. RICHARD STUCKEY: Thank you. 24 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: As I am signalled, we

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 73 1 

## have no more speakers for right now, so what I'm 2 

## going to do is suspend the hearing for a few 3 

## minutes until other speakers arrive. 4 

## We will stay here, and we will stay, 5 

## like I said, until 8 o'clock or beyond if we 6 

## need to, but, in the meantime, the hearing will 7 

## be suspended for now. Thank you. 8 

## (WHEREUPON, a recess was had 9 

## from 10:10 a.m. to 10 

## 10:21 a.m.) 11 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: We have a 5-minute 12 

## limit, but we are being flexible needless to 13 

## say. 14 

## The next two speakers will be Laura 15 

## Knezevic and Sarah Wochos. 16 

## MS. LAURA KNEZEVIC: My last name is 17 

## spelled K-n-e-z-e-v-i-c, Knezevic. 18 

## I'm from the Illinois Student 19 

## Environmental Coalition, and we represent 20 

## students on over 40 college campuses across the 21 

## state. 22 

## I'm basically here to represent their 23 

## concerns about the environment. 24 

## Air pollution, air quality is one of

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 74 1 

## their major concerns, especially pollution from 2 

## our power plants. 3 

## This rule is an extremely important 4 

## step in not only reducing the pollution from our 5 

## power generation, but, really, taking 6 

## significant steps to solve some of the things 7 

## that contribute to health problems from these 8 

## pollutants. 9 

## Our students that we work with, our 10 

## members know that this is a national problem, 11 

## that power generated in one state, the pollution 12 

## doesn't just stay there, it moves to other 13 

## states, and our students are concerned about 14 

## that pollution moving and affecting the areas 15 

## that don't generate this power. 16 

## They are also extremely concerned 17 

## about the lifelong health effects. These are 18 

## students that are working towards a generation 19 

## of lowering air pollution, and they're very 20 

## serious about taking steps to reduce that. 21 

## They also want to see economic 22 

## benefits from this rule. The information that 23 

## has been provided by this rule shows very clear 24 

## economic benefit, that whatever costs that would

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 75 1 

## have to be incurred to put in these pollution 2 

## controls are far outweighed by the benefits. 3 

## We'd also like to ask the EPA take the 4 

## most stringent steps in reducing air pollution, 5 

## and this isn't really a time for us sort of 6 

## half-hearted measures. That is a long overdue 7 

## step to reduce air pollution. Thank you. 8 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you. 9 

## MS. SARAH WOCHOS: Sarah Wochos. Last 10 

## name is spelled W-o-c-h-o-s. 11 

## I am from the Environmental Law & 12 

## Policy Center, and I probably am largely going 13 

## to reiterate what other people have already 14 

## said. 15 

## The LPC is supportive of the concept 16 

## of the Clean Air Interstate Rule, and we support 17 

## making it even stronger. 18 

## Therefore, we support the EPA in its 19 

## rule-making and encourage EPA to go even 20 

## further. 21 

## The LPC works in the midwest states to 22 

## help protect the environment. The various 23 

## states this rule intends to help are those that 24 

## we are working hard to protect.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 76 1 

## But our concern for the health and 2 

## welfare of our country does not end at the Ohio 3 

## state border. 4 

## Though the sources may be stationary, 5 

## we have long known that the emissions from these 6 

## sources are not. 7 

## The power transfer in the midwest 8 

## adversely affects other midwestern states and 9 

## states further east, and it is our moral 10 

## obligation to mitigate that impact as much as 11 

## humanly possible. 12 

## We've made admirable pollution 13 

## reductions since the Clean Air Act was first 14 

## passed in 1970, but we have a long way to go, 15 

## and this rule is an important first step. 16 

## Targeting power plants is the right 17 

## way to go. 18 

## In 2008, as we know, power plants were 19 

## responsible for 66 percent of sulfur dioxide 20 

## emissions and 19 percent of nitrogen oxide 21 

## emissions. 22 

## The benefits of implementation of this 23 

## rule are astounding for 9 million children in 24 

## the United States who suffer from asthma.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 77 1 

## In Chicago the incidence of asthma is 2 

## twice that in other areas. 3 

## The quality-of-life increase in 4 

## avoiding these hospitalizations should be enough 5 

## to convince us, but if that is not enough, the 6 

## economic benefits certainly will. 7 

## With the implementation of this rule, 8 

## we will avoid thousands of premature deaths and 9 

## thousands of hospitalizations. 10 

## The number of missed workdays and 11 

## schooldays will decrease, and, as a result, 12 

## collectively our society will save billions of 13 

## dollars in avoided healthcare costs, and we will 14 

## gain billions of dollars in increased 15 

## productivity. 16 

## So this rule is an important first 17 

## step. 18 

## It includes states that were not 19 

## originally subject to the Clean Air State Rule, 20 

## and it will overall increase the use of 21 

## emission-control technologies. 22 

## We recognize EPA's struggle to 23 

## maintain some sort of market-based approach to 24 

## emission reduction and yet still guarantee

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 78 1 

## overall reductions. 2 

## How about we support alternative 3 

## options too, which would place specific limits 4 

## at each plant, therefore guaranteeing state 5 

## emission reductions. 6 

## We also urge EPA to go even further. 7 

## The Rule seems to lessen the pollution-control 8 

## obligations of several states in the midwest as 9 

## compared CAIR. 10 

## Iowa, Missouri and Wisconsin will have 11 

## sulfur dioxide and annual nitrogen oxide 12 

## reductions, not seasonal reductions, and this 13 

## seems counterintuitive. 14 

## On a personal note, I grew up in 15 

## Milwaukee, and I now live in Chicago. 16 

## By EPA's own analysis, both Milwaukee 17 

## and Cook County will be required to have air 18 

## quality standards in 2014 even with this rule in 19 

## place. 20 

## We don't know if that will come to 21 

## fruition, but I want us to do everything in our 22 

## power to ensure that it doesn't reduce pollution 23 

## limits. Thanks. 24 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. Thank you,

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 79 1 

## both very much. 2 

## Any questions. 3 

## (No response.) 4 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: I have actually one 5 

## question for Laura, which is the organization 6 

## you represent, the Illinois Junior Environmental 7 

## Coalition -- 8 

## MS. LAURA KNEZEVIC: Illinois Students 9 

## Environmental Coalition. 10 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Sorry. My mistake. 11 

## Could you just talk a little bit about 12 

## that group, about the organization. 13 

## MS. LAURA KNEZEVIC: Yes. 14 

## We work with students on college 15 

## campuses on anything environmentally based, and 16 

## we bring them together to work on larger 17 

## environmental issues. 18 

## We take sort of an issue per semester 19 

## and organize initiatives around it, and they 20 

## range from anything like global warming to 21 

## reducing our usage of Styrofoam, and upcoming we 22 

## are going to be talking about clean water and 23 

## promoting bicycle usage. 24 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. Great. Thank

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 80 1 

## you very much. Thank you both. 2 

## Next two speakers, please, Verena Owen 3 

## and Rose Gomez, please. 4 

## MS. VERENA OWEN: Good morning. 5 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Spell your name for 6 

## the court reporter. 7 

## MS. VERENA OWEN: I will. 8 

## My name is Verena Owen. That's 9 

## V-e-r-e-n-a, and Owen, O-w-e-n. 10 

## First of all, thank you for holding 11 

## this hearing. 12 

## I am a volunteer leader in the Sierra 13 

## Club. 14 

## Sierra Club is the largest and oldest 15 

## environmental organization in the United States. 16 

## We have 1.3 million members and supporters. 17 

## I chair the Sierra Club's National 18 

## Campaign. The campaign is designed to 19 

## drastically reduce carbon dioxide emissions and 20 

## other pollutants from coal-fired power plants. 21 

## The campaign aims to move our economy 22 

## towards a clean future by stopping new 23 

## coal-fired power plants, phasing out existing 24 

## plants, and keeping the massive U.S. coal

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 81 1 

## reserves in the ground and out of our 2 

## international markets. 3 

## Over the last several years, I've had 4 

## the privilege to work with a great number of 5 

## Sierra activists all over the United States. 6 

## I've heard many compelling personal 7 

## stories about what made them coal activists in 8 

## the first place and what keeps them going and 9 

## what makes them submit yet another comment on 10 

## the Rule and show up at a hearing. 11 

## I wish I could share all those stories 12 

## with you because they paint a very, very 13 

## compelling picture, but I can't, so I'll share 14 

## my story very briefly with you today. It is not 15 

## that unusual. 16 

## I live in Winthrop Harbor, Illinois. 17 

## I forgive you if you don't know where that is. 18 

## That is the northeast corner of the state. 19 

## There are three large coal-fired power 20 

## plants within a 25-mile radius, Waukegan, 21 

## Illinois, Pleasant Prairie and Oak Creek in 22 

## Wisconsin. 23 

## It is an area with bad air quality 24 

## which my husband and I didn't know when we and

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 82 1 

## our children moved into the area in the 80s, not 2 

## that we really had a chance to move anywhere 3 

## else. Due to the jobs we didn't have a choice 4 

## in that. 5 

## When I moved there, I knew nobody. I 6 

## met my first new friend in the back row of an 7 

## aerobics class. That was the last aerobics 8 

## class either us ever took, but we spent a lot of 9 

## good times together in lots of other places. 10 

## At first glance, we probably didn't 11 

## seem look likely friends. She was a 12 

## sophisticated professional African-American 13 

## woman, and I was that wild-eyed German tree 14 

## hugger, but we were truly soul sisters. 15 

## Our kids grew up the same age, and we 16 

## had eight little boys amongst us, and you can 17 

## imagine what those days were like. 18 

## Shortly after her last baby was born, 19 

## she was diagnosed with a serious lung ailment. 20 

## Suddenly air quality became 21 

## overwhelmingly important for me. I spent a lot 22 

## of time on the phone with her, and I could 23 

## always tell when the air was bad. 24 

## She couldn't finish a sentence, she

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 83 1 

## couldn't breathe. She could hardly talk and 2 

## went to the hospital, and I was very worried. 3 

## She didn't live long enough to see her 4 

## oldest son graduate from high school. 5 

## EPA projects that without this "good 6 

## neighbor" rule air pollution from power plants 7 

## would result in 14 to 36,000 additional deaths. 8 

## We don't need to know any more. My 9 

## friend was one of those who suffered with the 10 

## hospital admissions, the emergency room visits, 11 

## and premature death static. 12 

## This has to end now. 13 

## Savings in health costs are estimated 14 

## to be between 100 to $250 billion. 15 

## The cost for implementing is a mere 16 

## fraction of the savings. Every dollar that is 17 

## spent on cleaning up, retiring, repowering or 18 

## replacing coal plants has a direct benefit for 19 

## human health. 20 

## Coal plants emit millions of tons of 21 

## air pollutants each year that cause serious 22 

## health problems. 23 

## The pollution does not stop at the 24 

## state line. This is a national problem that

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 84 1 

## needs national attention. 2 

## It is time that coal plants in 31 3 

## states clean up their act. It is the right 4 

## thing to do. It is the necessary thing to do. 5 

## It will protect the health and welfare of 6 

## millions of people, and there's a cost-effective 7 

## way to achieve true pollution reduction. 8 

## As I see it, that's 9 

## win-win-win-win-win. 10 

## I am grateful that the EPA is working 11 

## on enforcing clean air designed to end 12 

## regulatory enforcement too long exploited by big 13 

## coal. 14 

## After eight years of Bush 15 

## administration backsliding in action, the 16 

## safeguards seem to put public welfare back on 17 

## top of the priority list. Bravo. 18 

## The Clear Air Transport Rule is one of 19 

## those safeguards. I am very much in support of 20 

## it. 21 

## Sierra Club will submit formal 22 

## comments, and I'm sure that many, many, many of 23 

## my fellow activists, like Rose here, will also 24 

## submit comments in support of this rule, and I

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 85 1 

## think for your time. 2 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much 3 

## for your comments. Ms. Gomez. 4 

## MS. ROSE GOMEZ: Yes, hello. My name 5 

## is Rose. The last name is Gomez, G-o-m-e-z, and 6 

## I'm here because first and foremost I am a 7 

## mother, and I have an investment in the future 8 

## which is represented by my son, which my son is 9 

## going to either benefit or going to pay a very 10 

## high cost for the actions that we take or do not 11 

## take today. 12 

## And we are held accountable for what 13 

## we will do or won't do because we have the 14 

## knowledge to act today. Not years from now. 15 

## There are so many benefits that we 16 

## would gain as a result of moving forward with 17 

## the correct steps that are available for us to 18 

## do, and they include cleaning up the air that we 19 

## breath every day, not only myself, everybody in 20 

## this room, your children and your children's 21 

## children also breathe. 22 

## And that is why I'm here. It's 23 

## because my son is what drives me because I think 24 

## about his future.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 86 1 

## I think about what I did during my 2 

## lifetime, whether I did anything or I sat on the 3 

## sidelines and did nothing as far as speaking up 4 

## or acted as far as making the changes that 5 

## were possible to be taken to date. 6 

## And there is the technology for us, 7 

## like I said, to move forward. 8 

## The future, the jobs that are 9 

## available, there are so many opportunities for 10 

## better jobs, for jobs that represent the future 11 

## for our children, and not jobs that are going to 12 

## continue to dirty the air that we will breathe 13 

## and pay the high consequences for. 14 

## This is of course something that needs 15 

## to happen as quickly as possible, and 2012, in 16 

## no means, is very quickly by any standard as far 17 

## as I'm concerned, and as far as 2014, when 18 

## emissions would be reduced by 71 percent, that's 19 

## fine. The more the better. 20 

## Why couldn't it be higher? The amount 21 

## of benefits, like I said, far outweigh the 22 

## costs. 23 

## For example, 14,000 to 36,000 24 

## premature deaths, 21,000 cases of bronchitis.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 87 1 

## And we can go on, 23,000 nonfatal 2 

## heart attacks, 26,000 hospital and emergency 3 

## room visits. 4 

## Besides the benefits that we would 5 

## incur, it's the right thing to do, and there is 6 

## no cost that could make up the possibility of 7 

## not worrying about having to breathe dirty air. 8 

## There is nothing that surpasses the 9 

## benefits of being able to breathe clean air. 10 

## I would give all my possessions if I 11 

## knew that my son would have a future to breathe 12 

## cleaner air. I would give up everything, the 13 

## car I drive, all my wealth, anything, because 14 

## there's no amount of money that equals having to 15 

## worry about whether the quality of air is good 16 

## enough for my son or your children or your 17 

## children's children and so on. 18 

## So the time to act is today, not 19 

## tomorrow. 20 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you both very 21 

## much. Anyone have any questions? 22 

## (No response.) 23 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: I guess not. Thank 24 

## you both. Appreciate it.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 88 1 

## Okay. It looks like we are going to 2 

## suspend the hearing here for a bit more until 3 

## additional witnesses come, so we will stay here 4 

## and take a break. In the meantime we're 5 

## suspended. 6 

## (WHEREUPON, a recess was 7 

## had from 10:39 a.m. to 8 

## 11:03 a.m.) 9 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: We have a speaker, 10 

## Mr. Daniel DiMeo. 11 

## Is there anyone else in the room 12 

## interested in speaking? 13 

## (No response.) 14 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Go ahead and bring 15 

## Dan up. 16 

## Dan, if you could spell your name for 17 

## the court reporter, that would be great. 18 

## MR. DANIEL DiMEO: Sure. Daniel 19 

## DiMeo, D-i-M-e-o. 20 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Great. Thanks. 21 

## MR. DANIEL DiMEO: Thank you. My name 22 

## is Dan DiMeo. 23 

## I'm a student currently enrolled in 24 

## college at Roosevelt University, graduate of

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 89 1 

## Knox College. 2 

## I believe you've all read the EPA 3 

## reports, as I have, that show ensuring that 4 

## states need clean air pollution limits is almost 5 

## -- the cost is almost insignificant relative to 6 

## the expected benefits. 7 

## Even in financial calculations it's 50 8 

## times benefits over the cost. 9 

## And I found it interesting to note 10 

## that even the expected gains in visibility in 11 

## national parks and wilderness areas alone is 12 

## expected to be greater than the cost to power 13 

## plants to cap SO2 and nitrogen oxide pollution, 14 

## so even if just for the view if you wanted to 15 

## clean the air, it would be financially 16 

## beneficial to do so. 17 

## And as far as EPA's preferred approach 18 

## to the trading of pollution limits, it's my 19 

## vision that the more trading that's allowed 20 

## generally the less pollution control you can 21 

## expect, and when the costs are, again, shown to 22 

## be so significantly less than the benefits 23 

## overall, I believe that the best option, like 24 

## the EPA's second or third alternative,

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 90 1 

## especially in terms of eliminating interstate 2 

## trade, it's very easy for companies to see those 3 

## pollution limits as more allowances that they 4 

## have, and that it's a budget that they must 5 

## spend as much of as possible in order to cut 6 

## down the cost. 7 

## And so we need to make sure that those 8 

## budgets are as low as possible for the sake of 9 

## the rest of us as it were. 10 

## Again, we know that their costs are 11 

## significantly less than public health benefits, 12 

## and even, again, even benefits in terms of being 13 

## able to see, so that is -- I made the point. 14 

## Again, I would like to say that I 15 

## believe it's a great step towards achieving the 16 

## goal of the Clean Air Act, and I hope it is one 17 

## of many steps in this direction. 18 

## Thank you very much. 19 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much. 20 

## Thanks for taking the time. We appreciate it. 21 

## With that, I guess we will suspend 22 

## again until more speakers arrive. Thank you. 23 

## (WHEREUPON, a recess was had 24 

## from 11:07 a.m. to

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 91 1 

## 11:09 a.m.) 2 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. We have 3 

## another speaker, Mr. Richard Trzupek. 4 

## Richard, if you could spell your name 5 

## for the court reporter, that would be great. 6 

## MR. RICHARD TRZUPEK: The name is 7 

## spelled T, as in Tom, R, Z as in zebra, U, P as 8 

## in Peter, E, K. 9 

## I'm a consultant on the industry side 10 

## for a company called Mostardi Platt 11 

## Environmental. 12 

## We do quite a bit of work in the power 13 

## industry, and it includes a lot of the biomass 14 

## projects that are going on today. 15 

## I have not read the Rule yet. I'm 16 

## going to be, but going back to the original CAIR 17 

## rule, in the applicability section there was 18 

## something I think the Agency did not intend, to 19 

## bring a lot of new biomass projects coming on 20 

## line into the CAIR rule, but it unintentionally 21 

## did, because of the fossil fuel provision that 22 

## said if you ever use any fossil fuel... 23 

## A lot of these biomass projects do use 24 

## natural gas for startup, and startup alone for

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 92 1 

## load balancing, but it's a very small percentage 2 

## of the actual heat input into the biomass 3 

## projects. 4 

## If that same language is contained in 5 

## the new Transport Rule, it might be beneficial 6 

## to encourage biomass to take a look at that 7 

## language and maybe come up with some de minimis 8 

## fossil fuel use, if used for startup and load 9 

## balancing only, and that will certainly help 10 

## encourage the biomass industry without I think 11 

## sacrificing air quality. 12 

## So that was my only comment. I know 13 

## that was troubling to a lot of biomass people 14 

## originally, and perhaps we're looking at it 15 

## through the Agency. 16 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. Great. Thank 17 

## you. 18 

## MR. NAPOLITANO: Thank you. 19 

## The original actually CAIR provision, 20 

## which was later corrected, we carried forward 21 

## actually here, so I think we have taken care of 22 

## the problem, but please do look at the preamble 23 

## and offer us comments if we haven't sufficiently 24 

## addressed it.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 93 1 

## MR. RICHARD TRZUPEK: Okay. That's 2 

## great. 3 

## MR. SMITH: I think too at the very 4 

## beginning of the preamble I think we have -- 5 

## because there's so much regulatory language. 6 

## You can see in the very beginning of 7 

## the preamble we talk about the sections which 8 

## describe applicability. 9 

## I think there's a citation early in 10 

## the preamble, so, hopefully, you can find that 11 

## easily. 12 

## MR. RICHARD TRZUPEK: Okay. That 13 

## would be great and that will be my reading for 14 

## the weekend. 15 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Or the week. 16 

## Thank you. And it looks like we're 17 

## going to suspend again for a few minutes. 18 

## Thanks. 19 

## (WHEREUPON, a recess was 20 

## had from 11:12 a.m. to 21 

## 12:17 p.m.) 22 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Mr. Schraufnagel, can 23 

## you spell you name. 24 

## PROFESSOR DEAN SCHRAUFNAGEL: My name

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 94 1 

## is Dean Schraufnagel, S-c-h-r-a-u-f-n-a-g-e-l. 2 

## I am a professor of medicine and 3 

## pathology at the University of Illinois. I've 4 

## been on the board of directors of the National 5 

## American Lung Association until 2006. 6 

## I am currently the president of the 7 

## American Thoracic Society, and I'm the Vice 8 

## President of the International Union Against 9 

## Tuberculosis, which is the international 10 

## equivalent of the lung association. 11 

## I have edited a book, which has just 12 

## come out a few days ago, and I have a copy for 13 

## you. It's called "Breathing in America," and it 14 

## discusses about common diseases and what we need 15 

## to overcome them. 16 

## I'm a pulmonologist physician. I 17 

## specialize in respiratory disease. I see 18 

## patients regularly. 19 

## And though officially I'm speaking on 20 

## behalf of the American Lung Association of 21 

## Illinois, in reality I'm speaking on behalf of 22 

## my patients, and the ones who have difficulty 23 

## breathing. 24 

## I've testified before an EPA Panel on

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 95 1 

## the ozone, and I'm very pleased that those 2 

## stricter rules were adopted. 3 

## I actually was fortunate enough to 4 

## talk to the EPA administrator through the 5 

## Thoracic Society when we met in Washington maybe 6 

## about a month ago. 7 

## I do think though that we need more -- 8 

## I'm very happy with the ozone. I think we would 9 

## need more to reduce fine particulates, and the 10 

## oxides of nitrogen in the air. 11 

## I could talk about my patients. In 12 

## fact, that's what the Lung Association said, 13 

## "Well, just tell him about how your patients 14 

## have difficult days." 15 

## And I said, "Well, that's not 16 

## difficult," because many of them have bad days 17 

## where they can't breathe, and they say, "Well, I 18 

## think it's the humidity" or "I think it's the 19 

## --" sometimes the temperature. 20 

## Sometimes it's too cold, and sometimes 21 

## it's too hot. Sometimes it doesn't really seem 22 

## to matter, but it's really usually the fine 23 

## particulates, but it's the air pollution. 24 

## And I could talk about emergency room

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 96 1 

## visits, lung disease, several other diseases, 2 

## and death that tracks air pollution, 3 

## particularly the fine particulates, and, as you 4 

## know, there's a lot of new data coming out, how 5 

## these fine particles are absorbed through the 6 

## blood and affects cardiac disease, even fetal 7 

## health. 8 

## I could explain some of these 9 

## pathophysiology mechanisms, but how the lung 10 

## defends itself against the lung, how mucus traps 11 

## noxious particles, how immuno cells seek to 12 

## destroy them, but for most of the time and for 13 

## most of us the defense systems works well, at 14 

## least for now, but fine particles can slip 15 

## through this membrane to cause disease in other 16 

## organs. 17 

## I can say how this silent stalker even 18 

## affects the unborn, but today we are here to 19 

## address the Clean Air Transport Rule, polluted 20 

## air going from one place to the other. 21 

## If we recall our basic physics, two 22 

## solid objects placed on a table stay put, but 23 

## when we put milk into our tea, it takes only a 24 

## little while for the two liquids to mix, and, if

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 97 1 

## we stir that, even less. 2 

## Gas mixes many times faster and more 3 

## completely than liquids, and its molecules are 4 

## constantly moving at high speeds, making it 5 

## super-stirred, if you will. 6 

## Air is a mixture of gasses, and yet 7 

## the atmosphere contains precisely 20.9 percent 8 

## oxygen everywhere, even at Mount Everest. 9 

## Even though we can separate oxygen 10 

## from nitrogen relatively easy as we do with our 11 

## air concentrators we use for patients, when we 12 

## advocated to outlaw smoking in public places, we 13 

## argued that allowing smoking in one part of an 14 

## airplane or a restaurant and not allowing it in 15 

## another part is like having one part of a public 16 

## swimming pool the urinating part and the other 17 

## the nonurinating part. 18 

## Now, as bizarre as that sounds, it's 19 

## actually even more ridiculous to think of clean 20 

## air, a clean air standard in one state and 21 

## allowing an adjacent state to pollute. Because 22 

## we all breathe the same air. 23 

## That is why the American Lung 24 

## Association urges the Environmental Protection

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 98 1 

## Agency to adopt the Clean Air Transport Rule. 2 

## We want the air coming across our 3 

## state line not to add to the burden of 4 

## pollutants that we already have here in 5 

## Illinois. 6 

## We urge EPA to quickly move to adopt 7 

## and put in place this important tool for our 8 

## air. 9 

## Controlling air pollution at its 10 

## source will promote lung health now and in the 11 

## future. 12 

## I rely on EPA to protect my patients 13 

## to improve their lives and even to save them. 14 

## Thank you. 15 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much. 16 

## Anyone have any questions? 17 

## (No response.) 18 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: We very much 19 

## appreciate your testimony. Thank you. 20 

## PROFESSOR DEAN SCHRAUFNAGEL: Are you 21 

## interested in one of these? 22 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Absolutely. Thank 23 

## you. 24 

## (Copies of "Breathing in

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 99 1 

## America: Diseases, Progress, 2 

## and Hope, edited by Dean E. 3 

## Schraufnagel, MD, and 4 

## distributed by the American 5 

## Thoracic Society was 6 

## tendered to the Panel.) 7 

## (WHEREUPON, a recess was had 8 

## from 12:23 p.m. to 9 

## 2:08 p.m.) 10 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. If we could go 11 

## ahead and reconvene here. 12 

## For this afternoon we have a 13 

## relatively small group, so I won't go through my 14 

## entire opening statement, but we are here to 15 

## take your public comments on our Transport Rule, 16 

## proposed rule that focuses on getting reductions 17 

## of air pollutants, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen 18 

## oxide across 31 states and the northeastern 19 

## United States. 20 

## And this is the first of three 21 

## hearings that we are holding. We have a hearing 22 

## next week on the 26th in Philadelphia and one on 23 

## September the 1st in Atlanta, and we are very 24 

## much interested in your comments, really very

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 100 1 

## much appreciate all of you coming and taking 2 

## your time out of your schedules, and sounds like 3 

## all of you have had some fairly lengthy drives 4 

## to get here, so thank you very much for taking 5 

## the time. 6 

## This rule, as you may know, will 7 

## achieve some significant reductions of air 8 

## pollutants, and they will be achieved very 9 

## quickly in regulatory terms, by 2012. 10 

## Then one year after the Rule is 11 

## finalized a set of emission reductions will be 12 

## locked in. 13 

## By 2014, this rule and other state and 14 

## EPA actions will reduce power plant emissions of 15 

## sulfur dioxide by 71 percent over 2005 levels 16 

## and nitrogen oxide levels by 52 percent. 17 

## Our statement is available outside. 18 

## You can see the details, but the benefits of the 19 

## Rule greatly exceed the cost, and by a fairly 20 

## large order. 21 

## The Rule will help all but a very few 22 

## areas in the eastern part of the country meet 23 

## the 1997 ozone standards and fine particle 24 

## standards.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 101 1 

## We're proposing an approach for 2 

## reducing sulfur and nitrogen in states that are 3 

## covered by this rule. 4 

## Our preferred approach is to set 5 

## limits or budget for each of the 31 states and 6 

## the District of Columbia, and this approach 7 

## would allow limited interstate trading among 8 

## power plants to be sure that each one of the 9 

## states meets its pollution control obligations. 10 

## We have two alternatives, and the 11 

## first of the two alternatives to be proposed, 12 

## one would set a pollution limit or budget for 13 

## each state, and that option would allow trading, 14 

## but only among power plants within a state. 15 

## And the second alternative is 16 

## proposing to set a pollution limit for each 17 

## state and specify the allowable emission limits 18 

## for each power plant. It would allow some 19 

## averaging. 20 

## This proposed rule would replace the 21 

## EPA's 2005 Clean Air Interstate Rule or CAIR as 22 

## we sometimes call it. 23 

## We lost that ultimately in a 24 

## December 2008 court decision which kept the

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 102 1 

## requirements of that rule in place temporarily 2 

## but directed us to issue a new rule to implement 3 

## the Clean Air Act requirements that deal with 4 

## this long-range transport of pollution across 5 

## state boundaries, so this action is to respond 6 

## to the Court's concerns. 7 

## The way we're running this is those of 8 

## you that are here, I'm going to bring you up two 9 

## at a time, and there's a timer that will be set. 10 

## We're not holding people very tightly 11 

## to this because we really don't have as many 12 

## people, we are not jammed here, but basically 13 

## the lights are on. You'll have a green light 14 

## that will be on for 4 minutes. Then after 15 

## 4 minutes a yellow light comes which lets you 16 

## know you're getting close to the 5-minute limit. 17 

## At 5 minutes a red light flashes. If 18 

## you could start concluding at that point, that 19 

## would be useful. 20 

## Again, I hope we are not going to cut 21 

## anybody off at this point or anything like that 22 

## essentially, but we'd appreciate it if you could 23 

## start concluding at that point. 24 

## Let's see if there's anything I wanted

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 103 1 

## to mention. 2 

## As I said this morning, the most 3 

## important person in the room is Cynthia, who is 4 

## the court reporter. 5 

## She does the transcript that's being 6 

## taken of all the comments here, and we will 7 

## consider all of your comments in making our 8 

## final decision on this rule. 9 

## If someone has a written statement, 10 

## comments that you'd like to leave with us, feel 11 

## free to do that. 12 

## There's also where you can submit 13 

## written comments beyond anything that you say 14 

## orally today, and there's some information out 15 

## front to submit those written comments beyond 16 

## that. 17 

## I will quickly introduce our Panel 18 

## here so you know who you're talking to. 19 

## My name is Jeff Clark. I'm an 20 

## associate director from EPA's Office of Air 21 

## Quality Planning and Standards in Research 22 

## Triangle Park, North Carolina. 23 

## Doug Aburano is from our Chicago 24 

## regional office. He's one of our senior

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 104 1 

## managers in the Air program. 2 

## This is Sam Napolitano. Sam is the 3 

## head of Clean Air Markets Division for EPA in 4 

## Washington, D.C. 5 

## This is Sonja Rodman, who is one of 6 

## our top attorneys from Washington as well, and 7 

## then Tim Smith, who is one of the senior authors 8 

## of this Rule, this proposed rule as well. He's 9 

## also in my office in Research Triangle Park, 10 

## Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards. 11 

## So that's who we are, and we could 12 

## just go ahead and start up. 13 

## I'll call up Jim Hodina and Joyce 14 

## Harant. 15 

## And what I'd like you guys to do, if 16 

## you don't mind, is if you could stay up there 17 

## until both of you have finished your statements, 18 

## and then we may have a question or two or 19 

## comment, and then we'll go into additional 20 

## speakers. 21 

## So with that, Jim, if you'd like to 22 

## start. 23 

## MR. JAMES HODINA: Thank you. Good 24 

## afternoon.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 105 1 

## My name is James Hodina, and I am the 2 

## Air Pollution Control Officer for Linn County, 3 

## Iowa, as well as the Emissions and Modeling 4 

## Community Co-Chair and Board Member of NACAA, 5 

## the National Association of Clean Air Agencies. 6 

## Thank you for the opportunity to 7 

## testify today on EPA's Transport Rule proposal. 8 

## I'm here to present the views of 9 

## NACAA, which is the Association of Air Pollution 10 

## Control Agencies in 52 states and territories 11 

## and over 165 major metropolitan areas across the 12 

## country. 13 

## Nitrogen oxide and sulfur dioxide 14 

## emissions contribute to fine particulate matter 15 

## and ozone pollution which cause significant 16 

## public health problems, including premature 17 

## deaths, infant mortality, nonfatal heart 18 

## attacks, hospital admissions for respiratory and 19 

## cardiovascular issues and emergency room visits 20 

## for asthma. 21 

## Like the power plants, the sources 22 

## proposed to be controlled under the Transport 23 

## Rule are significant contributors to ozone and 24 

## PM2.5 pollution.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 106 1 

## Controlling these sources is highly 2 

## cost effective. EPA's own analysis shows a 40 3 

## to 1 and up to a 100 to 1 benefit-to-cost ratio 4 

## for the power plant controls in the Transport 5 

## Rule. 6 

## NACAA has undertaken a preliminary 7 

## assessment of EPA's currently proposed Transport 8 

## Rule, and I'd like to first share with you 9 

## several positive features of the proposed rule 10 

## that we have identified. 11 

## We applaud EPA for thoughtfully 12 

## considering how to remedy the fatal flaws 13 

## identified in court decisions striking down the 14 

## CAIR rule. 15 

## For example, we are encouraged by 16 

## EPA's provisions limiting interstate trading. 17 

## These will ensure that a substantial portion of 18 

## a state's assigned emissions reduction occur in 19 

## that state. 20 

## We are also pleased that EPA has 21 

## attempted to align the Rule's compliance 22 

## deadlines with attainment deadlines for the 23 

## ozone and PM2.5 air quality standards. 24 

## NACAA also supports the Agency's use

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 107 1 

## of air quality factors and a health benefits 2 

## assessment calculating states' emissions 3 

## budgets, rather than basing the budget solely on 4 

## the availability of cost-effective controls. 5 

## We are also pleased that EPA's 6 

## committed to quickly finalizing a second 7 

## transport rule, Transport Rule II, in 8 

## recognition that much tighter NOx caps will be 9 

## needed to address the pending revision to the 10 

## 8-hour ozone standard. 11 

## NACAA strongly supports EPA's pledge 12 

## to review whether a new or revised Transport 13 

## Rule is needed each time it revises an air 14 

## quality standard. 15 

## I would now like to turn to several 16 

## important areas of the Rule that NACAA believes 17 

## need to be strengthened. 18 

## NACAA believes the NOx emission caps in 19 

## the proposed Transport Rule are not stringent 20 

## enough. 21 

## While EPA proposes to lower the SO2 cap 22 

## in 2014, the Agency makes no such adjustment for 23 

## NOx. 24 

## Instead, EPA proposes to keep the same

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 108 1 

## overly generous NOx cap for 2014 that is 2 

## proposed for 2012, which still leaves several 3 

## areas vulnerable to interstate transport 4 

## problem. 5 

## Although EPA says it will address the 6 

## NOx reductions needed to meet the soon-to-be 7 

## promulgated revised ozone standard in Transport 8 

## Rule II, it is imperative that the Agency 9 

## include in this Transport Rule a second, tighter 10 

## NOx cap in 2014 to assist states in attaining 11 

## the current ozone standard. 12 

## Then, as EPA plans, the Agency should 13 

## turn to the forthcoming ozone standard and 14 

## promulgate a far more stringent NOx cap for 15 

## Transport Rule II that achieves the maximum 16 

## emission reductions that are technologically 17 

## feasible and cost effective to ameliorate the 18 

## entire transport problem associated with the 19 

## revised ozone standard. 20 

## In addition, the Transport Rule fails 21 

## to include all sources that contribute 22 

## significantly to transport such as industrial, 23 

## commercial and institutional boilers and cement 24 

## kilns.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 109 1 

## These additional source categories 2 

## represent a significant percentage of the 3 

## states' NOx and SO2 emissions inventories and 4 

## also contribute to interstate transport 5 

## problems. 6 

## EPA must address these source 7 

## categories as well when it proposes its 8 

## Transport Rule II. 9 

## Furthermore, EPA's analysis in the 10 

## Transport Rule is not complete. There are 11 

## dozens of states that will need to do more in 12 

## order to satisfy their Clean Air Act obligation 13 

## to address transport. 14 

## We are disappointed that after 15 

## spending a year and a half to analyze interstate 16 

## transport, EPA still presents us with an 17 

## incomplete solution. 18 

## Finally, and very critically, NACAA 19 

## urges EPA to finalize Transport Rule II quickly. 20 

## EPA must promulgate a second Transport 21 

## Rule no later than 2012 if the Agency is indeed 22 

## serious about helping state and local air 23 

## pollution control agencies to address interstate 24 

## transport, meet their statutory obligations

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 110 1 

## under the Clean Air Act and to ultimately attain 2 

## the health-based standards. 3 

## We look forward to working with the 4 

## Agency to accomplish this important rule. 5 

## Thank you for the opportunity to 6 

## comment, and I will be happy to take any 7 

## questions. 8 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Great. Thank you 9 

## very much. If you don't mind hanging there for 10 

## a minute. 11 

## Ms. Harant. And you might also spell 12 

## your name if you don't mind. 13 

## MS. JOYCE HARANT: I'd be happy to. 14 

## Name is Joyce Harant, H-a-r-a-n-t, and 15 

## I'm from Peoria, here in Illinois, and I was 16 

## originally the driver, but I am now testifying 17 

## also. 18 

## I'm part of a group called Peoria 19 

## Families Against Toxic Waste that was formed in 20 

## 2005 to oppose hazardous waste landfill 21 

## expansion. 22 

## And so we are concerned about toxic, 23 

## so, in general, about those that come from the 24 

## air.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 111 1 

## And I am in favor, strongly in favor 2 

## of this rule but think it needs to be stronger. 3 

## Your second alternative which sets a 4 

## pollution limit for each state and specifies 5 

## limits for each power plant I believe is the way 6 

## to go, and I say that -- I live in Illinois, and 7 

## I know that if there's a way to wheel and deal 8 

## and put something off, it will happen in 9 

## Illinois, and we'll be here 5 years from now, 10 

## and Illinois won't be any further along, so I 11 

## encourage that you do the strictest possible way 12 

## to -- so that everybody knows what's happening 13 

## in the state, what's going to happen for each 14 

## power plant, not only in Illinois but all around 15 

## us, because the other part of my thinking is 16 

## that -- and I believe Mr. Aburano was gracious 17 

## to be at an ozone forum in Peoria. 18 

## And we have a problem in Peoria, and 19 

## there's always the circle. The pollution's 20 

## coming from someplace else. It's always a way 21 

## out on these things. 22 

## And we also have a tremendous problem 23 

## in air around our schools. There was a study 24 

## about school air pollution, and we are very

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 112 1 

## offended about school air pollution. 2 

## And we have a lot of lead pollution 3 

## problems mainly from housing in Peoria, but 4 

## anything that comes from the air on to the 5 

## ground is going to only make that problem worse. 6 

## But everybody else says the problem is 7 

## from someplace else, "It's not here," and so 8 

## having stronger rules for everybody where it's 9 

## known that this is what you have to meet in this 10 

## state and in other states will help that. 11 

## I think that's basically what I would 12 

## like to say. 13 

## I guess the other thing would be for 14 

## the ozone standard that you are going to be 15 

## adopting, I hope that you will make it be the 16 

## strongest as possible. 17 

## And I thank you again for this 18 

## opportunity in holding these hearings here. 19 

## Thank you. 20 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much: 21 

## I just have one question. 22 

## Could you just talk a little bit more 23 

## about the Peoria Families Against Toxic Waste? 24 

## Is it citizens?

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 113 1 

## MS. HARANT: It's grassroots. We're 2 

## not incorporated. We have no money or very 3 

## little money. 4 

## We have taken a local company to 5 

## court. We've appealed to the state Supreme 6 

## Court on issues of expansion. 7 

## We've been focusing on landfills and 8 

## what's going into the ground, but we are also 9 

## very concerned about what's in the air because 10 

## we are concerned about all sorts of pollutants. 11 

## And we see the connection to long term 12 

## for public health. What we consume, what we 13 

## breathe, what we drink is all related, and what 14 

## would we classify ourselves as? 15 

## We are tenacious, but we are trying 16 

## not to be unreasonable, and we try to work with 17 

## the groups, the groups that we have been in 18 

## opposition with or the providers, we try to find 19 

## some common ground so that we can find some 20 

## reasonable solutions. 21 

## And if you'd like more information, we 22 

## can perhaps this week -- I can be a contact. 23 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. Great. Thank 24 

## you very much.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 114 1 

## We also are tenacious and try not to 2 

## be unreasonable, so... 3 

## MS. HARANT: We have a lot in common 4 

## then. 5 

## MR. SMITH: I'm always happy to see 6 

## people from downstate Illinois, having grown up 7 

## in a little town maybe about 50 miles south of 8 

## there and having spent a summer in college 9 

## working for a certain large company that makes a 10 

## lot of bright yellow, but I wanted to ask 11 

## Mr. Hodina, one place we're looking for input in 12 

## our comments is on these wintertime short terms. 13 

## Seems like it's in the northern tier 14 

## states. There's a lot of issues related to sort 15 

## of what was happening with wintertime NOx. 16 

## You could help us on that particular 17 

## issue. 18 

## MR. JAMES HODINA: When you say "short 19 

## term," are you talking 24-hour? 20 

## MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. The 24-hour PM 21 

## contributions in the winter. That was one of 22 

## the pieces of unfinished business we discussed 23 

## in the preamble. 24 

## MR. JAMES HODINA: I'd like to take

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 115 1 

## that back, but we'll just make additional 2 

## comments I'm sure. 3 

## MS. RODMAN: I also had just a 4 

## clarifying question. 5 

## MR. JAMES HODINA: Sure. 6 

## MS. RODMAN: You talked about the need 7 

## for a stricter NOx cap. 8 

## MR. JAMES HODINA: Correct. 9 

## MS. RODMAN: And then talked primarily 10 

## about ozone. 11 

## Are you also suggesting that the 12 

## annual NOx cap should be tightened? 13 

## MR. JAMES HODINA: Well, obviously, 14 

## modeling is a strong tool there to help us 15 

## analyze that, and we did ask questions about the 16 

## budgets, and even yesterday with our own calls 17 

## tried to get a better understanding how the two 18 

## models work together to set up the overall 19 

## benefits versus the allocations and so forth. 20 

## So we're still trying to understand, 21 

## quite honestly, how it's coming together, but I 22 

## think our general observations were that the NOx 23 

## life seemed more lenient than what we needed to 24 

## achieve.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 116 1 

## Eastern coast especially, ozone is a 2 

## primary concern indefinitely. Would be their 3 

## emphasis, maybe some of the more northern 4 

## states, PM2.5 might not be, but certainly take 5 

## this back to our committees and see what kind of 6 

## specific, more specific input we can provide. 7 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. Thank you both 8 

## very much. Appreciate it. Next two speakers, 9 

## please. 10 

## Joyce Blumenshine and Tracy Meints 11 

## Fox, and you might also spell your names for the 12 

## court reporter too. That would be useful. 13 

## MS. JOYCE BLUMENSHINE: I'm Joyce 14 

## Blumenshine, B-l-u-m-e-n-s-h-i-n-e. 15 

## I am here as a volunteer and also 16 

## Conservation Chair for Heart of Illinois Group 17 

## Sierra Club. 18 

## I live in Peoria, 150 miles south of 19 

## here in the beautiful Illinois River Valley with 20 

## our oak timber bluffs and wonderful scenery and 21 

## topography which is nice in Illinois. 22 

## I did ride up with Joyce Harant. 23 

## There was three of us, and we made the 24 

## determination that we had to be here and wanted

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 117 1 

## to be here today because we sincerely thank each 2 

## of you on this Panel for coming to Illinois. 3 

## It is so important to us in Peoria 4 

## that these more strict standards are adopted. 5 

## We are in support of EPA and 6 

## appreciate your leadership in moving forward for 7 

## better air quality. 8 

## Peoria is impacted from southwest 9 

## prevailing winds most often, and we have four 10 

## coal-fired old power plants within our region. 11 

## There's one immediately to the south 12 

## edge of Peoria, E.D. Edwards (Ameran), Duck 13 

## Creek plant is in an adjacent county, Fulton 14 

## County. 15 

## We have the Havana power plant just 16 

## down river, which when the south winds come, 17 

## those particulate comes from -- that area also 18 

## from the Powerton plant in Pekin. 19 

## Those are four immediate to us, and if 20 

## the wind shifts, unfortunately, from the north, 21 

## we have Hennepin power plant to the north of us. 22 

## So we in many ways feel that we are 23 

## besieged in our beautiful River Valley by these 24 

## old coal-fired power plants.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 118 1 

## Personally, I can relate because I 2 

## have a co-worker for 9 years who suffered from 3 

## asthma, and I remember her calls into work 4 

## saying she would be late, she had to pull her 5 

## car over. 6 

## The air was so bad she had to stop 7 

## because she was in a panic because she was 8 

## having asthma attacks. 9 

## When you hear an individual for whom 10 

## you care about have those types of things on a 11 

## regular basis over 9 years, I became personally 12 

## acutely aware, although very thankful that I 13 

## didn't have that situation, I became acutely 14 

## aware of the impacts of air quality on 15 

## individuals' lives and their ability to perform 16 

## work and carry out their daily usefulness as a 17 

## citizen in this country where they should have 18 

## the right to quality of air and clean air. 19 

## And she was a single mother of two 20 

## children, and her health situation was a real 21 

## toll on her family, so what you are doing as 22 

## leadership for this country with your proposed 23 

## regulations, and, we hope, even stronger 24 

## regulations are essential.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 119 1 

## The time is now to move forward with 2 

## stronger regulations, and this Transport Rule is 3 

## an essential step. 4 

## In my role as a volunteer leader with 5 

## our local Sierra Club and our dedicated crew of 6 

## over 700 members, we have tried to work on air 7 

## quality issues in Peoria. 8 

## When we go to the score card 9 

## tabulation of air quality index, Peoria has 10 

## nitrogen oxide emissions in the 90th percentile, 11 

## the worst rating. 12 

## And it's the same for sulfur dioxide 13 

## emissions, and we are concerned about 14 

## particulates in our area. 15 

## We have tried to talk to our regional 16 

## planning commissions about concerns for ozone. 17 

## We currently are in attainment. 18 

## We have been very close at times to 19 

## being concerned that Peoria would not be in 20 

## attainment. 21 

## So currently although not one of the 22 

## red or yellow dots on the maps and materials, 23 

## we're close, and we do not want to enter into 24 

## that category.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 120 1 

## We look to your rulings as a way to 2 

## help our community be careful not to get out of 3 

## attainment I should say, and, also, that we can 4 

## improve air for us. 5 

## And also the responsibilities that we 6 

## have in our central Illinois area, so that the 7 

## pollution from the four immediate coal-fired 8 

## power plants around us and the fifth one to the 9 

## north don't continue to impact areas outside of 10 

## our state. 11 

## I think as individuals we should all 12 

## be keenly aware of that, and what you're doing 13 

## with proposing more stringent rulings is part of 14 

## what we should be document nationwide to care 15 

## for each other in other communities. 16 

## And the impacts long term on our 17 

## forest resources, our water resources and the 18 

## environment on which we all depend. 19 

## So I thank you again very much for 20 

## this opportunity to speak and encourage every 21 

## effort for the strongest regulations. 22 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much. 23 

## Ms. Meints Fox. 24 

## MS. TRACY MEINTS FOX: My name is

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 121 1 

## Tracy Meints, M-e-i-n-t-s, Fox, F-o-x. 2 

## I'm here today as a community activist 3 

## who works on a variety of pollution issues in 4 

## central Illinois. 5 

## I'm pleased to work with Joyce 6 

## Blumenshine and to volunteer with Joyce Harant 7 

## and Peoria Families Against Toxic Waste. 8 

## I'm also active with a third 9 

## environmental group, Central Illinois Global 10 

## Warming Solutions Group. 11 

## We're a small group of activists who 12 

## pester the county board and local government to 13 

## pave the way for renewable energy to improve 14 

## energy efficiency and to take the steps to 15 

## protect air, land and water resources in central 16 

## Illinois. 17 

## I'm here today in full support of the 18 

## EPA's actions and the Surface Transport Rule. 19 

## I believe that it embodies three 20 

## principles which need to be broad-based and 21 

## underlay regulation of all pollutants in our 22 

## society. 23 

## I believe it's a step forward and a 24 

## move to a better energy future because it helps

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 122 1 

## to place the true cost of using coal and fueling 2 

## our nation on coal back on to the coal plants. 3 

## I'm very happy to see that the public 4 

## health impacts will no longer be absorbed by the 5 

## public at large, but the cost of the pollution 6 

## control technologies will be put on the plant so 7 

## that the cost of coal reflects its true cost 8 

## rather than allowing all of these socialized 9 

## costs to go out to the general public and the 10 

## benefits to remain privatized to the power 11 

## generators. 12 

## I think that's an important principle, 13 

## and I would hope that as the EPA moves forward 14 

## on things like coal ash and regulations of other 15 

## pollutants that the true cost, the true expense 16 

## to society of dirty fossil fuels would become 17 

## clear, and eventually they would go out of the 18 

## market. 19 

## Secondly, I think that this Surface 20 

## Transport Rule does a great job in that it 21 

## doesn't allow grandfathering. 22 

## As someone who has spent years 23 

## fighting hazardous waste landfills, it's very 24 

## frustrating to be told, "Well, it was," quote,

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 123 1 

## 'grandfathered' in at the time that the 2 

## regulations went into effect." 3 

## I'm pleased to see that the EPA has 4 

## not chosen to grandfather anything in. Even 5 

## 60-plus-year-old coal plants will remain 6 

## unexempt from this regulation. 7 

## And I urge the EPA to stand strong and 8 

## to adopt similar tough stances as other 9 

## pollutants are regulated in the next cycle of 10 

## looking everything over. 11 

## Thirdly, I'm happy to see that this 12 

## regulation embodies the "good neighbor" policy. 13 

## As someone who goes to a lot of small 14 

## meetings, the excuse for not stopping sewers 15 

## from emitting into the river, the excuse for not 16 

## going after industrial polluters, the excuse for 17 

## not working on staying out of ozone attainment 18 

## is always that there are bigger polluters 19 

## elsewhere, and their position is somehow getting 20 

## across the borders into Peoria County, and, 21 

## therefore, it would be futile to act. 22 

## It is difficult for me as a community 23 

## activist to emphasize enough what a huge barrier 24 

## this is to action at the local levels,

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 124 1 

## especially and financially strapped small and 2 

## midsized towns. 3 

## We think, "Well, it's all Chicago. It 4 

## couldn't be anything happening here." 5 

## As the EPA begins to roll out 6 

## policies, and they put this "good neighbor" into 7 

## effect, and which they know everyone is being 8 

## regulated, and they're being regulated not just 9 

## for their effect in the immediate area, but for 10 

## their contributions to other areas. 11 

## It removes that barrier, and I think 12 

## it's important to move forward in that way. 13 

## My only comments would be that I would 14 

## hope that as the EPA goes forward that this will 15 

## be part of a larger effort that will take a more 16 

## holistic approach to pollution. 17 

## That is the only fault I can find with 18 

## the Rule. I think that you really need to 19 

## factor in not just criteria, but all pollutants 20 

## that are affecting the area to have an 21 

## understanding in the modeling of the overall 22 

## burden on communities. 23 

## I also think that the Rule needs to 24 

## look at all industries, not just power

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 125 1 

## generation, and I hope that in future versions 2 

## it can be expanded to do so. 3 

## I come from a very old city. We've 4 

## celebrated our tricentennial. We have many 5 

## polluting legacy industries in the Illinois 6 

## River Valley, and those have served us well. 7 

## Sometimes they come grandfathered in 8 

## with some permits that really are not helpful to 9 

## the cause of clean air, land and water. 10 

## And we hope that this EPA will move us 11 

## into the 21st century in terms of pollution 12 

## control. 13 

## Thank you for the opportunity for 14 

## people to come and speak locally. 15 

## I belong to small groups with limited 16 

## or no budgets, so it's wonderful to be able to 17 

## travel here and give my voice because there are 18 

## no lobbyists that speak for me, and I can't do a 19 

## national campaign to contact people. 20 

## So your efforts to come to people are 21 

## much appreciated. Thank you. 22 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you both very 23 

## much. If anyone has any questions or comments? 24 

## MR. NAPOLITANO: Thank you very much.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 126 1 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. I understand 2 

## we have no more speakers that are assigned right 3 

## now. 4 

## If there is anyone here that would 5 

## like to come up and speak, feel free. 6 

## We are going to be open here until 5 7 

## o'clock today, and we think we've got additional 8 

## speakers that are coming along. 9 

## So we'll stay here, we'll suspend, and 10 

## then in the event that no one does come, but if 11 

## there is anyone here that would like to testify, 12 

## you're more than welcome to come up. 13 

## Or if you decide later to do so, 14 

## that's fine as well. 15 

## In the meantime we will go ahead and 16 

## suspend for a few minutes until we have more 17 

## speakers, thank you. 18 

## (WHEREUPON, a recess was 19 

## had from 2:38 p.m. to 20 

## 2:59 p.m.) 21 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: We will reconvene the 22 

## hearing then, and we have a speaker. 23 

## Ms. Ringle. 24 

## MS. WEEKS RINGLE: My name is Weeks

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 127 1 

## Ringle, W-e-e-k-s, R-i-n-g-l-e. 2 

## I am 48 years old. I'm a mom, a 3 

## designer and a writer and a business owner. 4 

## I'm also a lifelong asthmatic. 5 

## All my life I've wanted to speak to 6 

## some of the people who decide how clean our air 7 

## will be and to ask, or, more truthfully, to beg 8 

## for the cleanest air possible, so I am truly 9 

## grateful to have this chance to speak with you. 10 

## In front of me are the medications and 11 

## equipment I need to be able to breathe. 12 

## In addition, later today, I will 13 

## receive at my doctor's office, three 14 

## immunizations I get each week as part of my 15 

## asthma care. 16 

## I spend hundreds of dollars each month 17 

## on medications, doctor visits and immunizations. 18 

## When I am healthy, I can, with these 19 

## medications, work out for an hour each day to 20 

## keep my body as strong as possible. 21 

## On a good day, I'm able to ride a 22 

## hundred miles on my bike. On a bad day I have 23 

## difficulty getting enough breath to finish a 24 

## sentence.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 128 1 

## Sometimes the medications just stop 2 

## working or I develop infections. 3 

## In the past year I've had six 4 

## respiratory infections each lasting from 10 days 5 

## to 3 weeks. 6 

## Last year I was hospitalized and 7 

## confined to bed for three consecutive months and 8 

## had to ask our publisher to delay our book 9 

## release because I couldn't breathe enough to 10 

## work. 11 

## Were it not for my heroic husband, who 12 

## does both my job and his when I'm ill, I would 13 

## have to apply for disability because no employer 14 

## would tolerate that kind of absenteeism. 15 

## Asthma dominates my life, and although 16 

## I work hard to be a compliant patient, and to 17 

## take excellent care of myself, much of my effort 18 

## to keep my asthma in control is undermined by 19 

## poor air quality. 20 

## I thank you for the measures you are 21 

## considering and ask that you continue to push 22 

## for the cleanest air possible. 23 

## I am certain that some will tell you 24 

## it is too costly to adapt clean air measures.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 129 1 

## I am also certain that none of those 2 

## people has ever struggled to breathe as much as 3 

## I have. 4 

## I ask you to think of breathing clean 5 

## air as a human right. Part of being a great 6 

## country is having clean air. Thank you. 7 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much. 8 

## Thank you. 9 

## MS. WEEKS RINGLE: You're quite 10 

## welcome. Thank you. 11 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you. 12 

## We will suspend then. Thank you. 13 

## (WHEREUPON, a recess was 14 

## had from 3:04 p.m. to 15 

## 3:37 p.m.) 16 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: We have Casey 17 

## Gifford. 18 

## MS. CASEY GIFFORD: My name is Casey 19 

## Gifford. 20 

## I'm originally from Oregon, and that's 21 

## where I go to school. I'm a runner, and Oregon 22 

## is a great place to run, and there are plenty of 23 

## trails and I come here and I travel, and I 24 

## travel in the east, and I go running wherever I

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 130 1 

## go, and my goal is to run a marathon in every 2 

## state, but I don't know that I want to run, you 3 

## know, out here, because it's harder to run. 4 

## Feels like I'm running at elevation, 5 

## and for people that have asthma, I can't even 6 

## imagine how it is to breathe, and I don't want 7 

## to have to walk in a shopping mall when I travel 8 

## to get my exercise. 9 

## So I encourage the EPA to pass this 10 

## rule. Thank you. 11 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much. 12 

## When you said you your goal was to run 13 

## a marathon, I thought you were going to stop the 14 

## sentence right there. 15 

## You said in every state. That's a 16 

## little intimidating. 17 

## Anyway, thank you very much for your 18 

## comments. 19 

## We will suspend. 20 

## (WHEREUPON, a recess was 21 

## had from 3:39 p.m. to 22 

## 7:14 p.m.) 23 

## MR. TONY FULLER: My name is Tony 24 

## Fuller. I'm a volunteer with the Sierra Club,

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 131 1 

## and mostly I've been volunteering around air and 2 

## energy issues in the Chicago area. 3 

## Mostly I've been concerned about 4 

## global warming, but because of my concerns about 5 

## global warming I've also learned about other 6 

## pollutant issues that are caused by burning at 7 

## coal-powered plants, and one of the things I've 8 

## learned from going around and talking to people 9 

## around the city is just really how much of a 10 

## health issue the bad air basically causes for 11 

## people in this city, and, you know, I've been 12 

## lucky that myself, I personally have not been as 13 

## affected as much, but I've talked to a number of 14 

## people that moved in from out of state or from 15 

## other locations and have really felt the impact. 16 

## They love the city. They love the 17 

## environment, but one of the drawbacks is the bad 18 

## air, and I've also heard about children that are 19 

## impacted, and, you know, I just really -- I just 20 

## find it heartbreaking to hear, you know, that 21 

## kids can't just go out there and really enjoy 22 

## themselves outside, and so basically I see the 23 

## need for this rule basically just to really help 24 

## bring the cost -- I mean a lot of times what I'm

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 132 1 

## seeing is that the costs are just hard to 2 

## quantify so they're completely ignored, and the 3 

## human health damages and, you know, premature 4 

## deaths, which, you know, how do you even value 5 

## that? 6 

## It's just really overlooked, you know, 7 

## I mean because it doesn't have a number figure, 8 

## it does not get the attention that I really 9 

## think it deserves. 10 

## So I'm not a scientist, but I just 11 

## wanted to say there are a lot of people out 12 

## there suffering because of this, and I just 13 

## wanted to come in and say that I support this 14 

## effort to make strong reductions in these 15 

## pollutants, and I believe that the costs 16 

## involved are negligible compared to the benefits 17 

## that it's going to make for people in the city, 18 

## and, of course, around the country as well. I 19 

## guess that's it. 20 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Okay. Well, no, 21 

## that's great. We appreciate it very much. 22 

## Any questions? 23 

## (No response.) 24 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you for your

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 133 1 

## time. We really appreciate you taking the time 2 

## to come by. 3 

## MR. TONY FULLER: All right. Thank 4 

## you. 5 

## (WHEREUPON, a recess was had 6 

## from 7:17 p.m. to 7:32 p.m.) 7 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: We have been taking 8 

## testimony all day from folks, so feel free to go 9 

## in whatever order you would like, and if you 10 

## wouldn't mind, just when you say your name, if 11 

## you could maybe spell the last name too for the 12 

## court reporter. 13 

## MR. VINCENT HEADINGTON: All right. 14 

## I'm Vince Headington, 15 

## H-e-a-d-i-n-g-t-o-n. 16 

## My profession is that of a healthcare 17 

## attorney, and I welcome the opportunity to 18 

## testify in this hearing. 19 

## And I do appreciate the hearing 20 

## officers taking the time to hear the testimony. 21 

## I know it may have been a long day for 22 

## you, but, anyway, we came in from the western 23 

## suburbs. 24 

## I live in Burr Ridge, Illinois, in the

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 134 1 

## western suburbs, and the subject of air 2 

## pollution is something that I feel very strongly 3 

## about. 4 

## I'm here to support the proposed rule. 5 

## In very simple terms, for too long 6 

## coal-fired power plants have shifted the cost of 7 

## the consequences of their air pollution to the 8 

## general population both in terms of healthcare 9 

## and to small employers such as myself, who have 10 

## to bear the cost of the days off work. 11 

## And all of this has a cost. There's 12 

## no such thing as being able to pollute without 13 

## cost. 14 

## So my main reason for supporting the 15 

## rule is that I believe that it would, A, reduce 16 

## healthcare costs and also save costs for small 17 

## employers. Thank you. 18 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much. 19 

## MRS. MAUREEN HEADINGTON: My name is 20 

## Maureen Headington, H-e-a-d-i-n-g-t-o-n, and 21 

## since our move to the western suburbs -- I was 22 

## born and raised in Chicago, but we saved and 23 

## saved for the dream home and put in a wonderful 24 

## English garden, and then I discovered about a

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 135 1 

## year into living there that a toxic waste 2 

## incinerator was being cited 3 miles from us. 3 

## As a former teacher, I taught in the 4 

## inner city for 20 years here in Chicago, it led 5 

## me down an entirely different path, and now the 6 

## public is my classroom. 7 

## I've had to educate myself on toxic 8 

## waste burners, hospital incinerators, coal-fired 9 

## power plants, most recently on the transport of 10 

## nuclear waste. 11 

## We elected to stay in our community. 12 

## I quit the job I had at the time in order to do 13 

## what was necessary to inform my neighbors, my 14 

## municipality of what was coming, because the 15 

## toxic burner was well on its way to -- in terms 16 

## of collecting all of the permits it would have 17 

## needed, and it would have been a humdinger 18 

## bringing in railroad ties and utility poles 19 

## soaked in creosote from all over the country to 20 

## burn 24/7, on Illinois Retail Rate Lock, a 21 

## wonderful convoluted law where we, the citizens, 22 

## would be paying for our own poison because it 23 

## has enormous tax credits. 24 

## I'm have concerns about tax credits.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 136 1 

## I'm not going to get into that on your time now, 2 

## but it seems to me in the energy sector the 3 

## public is having to bear so very much, and 4 

## there's a tipping point. 5 

## And I have given now 15 years of my 6 

## life to this, and, quite frankly, I never 7 

## finished unpacking. There's still boxes. 8 

## Because this is a passion. 9 

## And even though I have a job now, I 10 

## probably give this 40 to 50 hours a week because 11 

## it's so important. For whatever reason it's on 12 

## me. 13 

## So I'm glad you're here today because 14 

## it was worth the drive in from Burr Ridge to be 15 

## able to be here and represent the communities 16 

## that I have worked with over the last 10 years. 17 

## If you want to know anything about my 18 

## other projects, feel free to ask me after this 19 

## testimony, but I have a real concern. 20 

## I didn't know about this hearing 21 

## except that someone from one of the lung 22 

## associations two days ago sent me something, and 23 

## "Oh, oh. I have to do this." This is so 24 

## important.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 137 1 

## I wish these things would be broadcast 2 

## on every radio station, on every television 3 

## station because metro Chicago, it is just 4 

## unfathomable what we've had to endure. 5 

## As a teacher I can tell you firsthand 6 

## that the absenteeism which results in lots of 7 

## funding for the schools, the numbers of children 8 

## from when I first started teaching to when I 9 

## left that are out because of asthma or 10 

## bronchial-type situations, so that in and of 11 

## itself, a different vantage point as a teacher 12 

## than, you know, perhaps my husband, when, you 13 

## know, employees can't come to work. 14 

## It seems what when famous people die 15 

## or become disabled, it makes all the news, and 16 

## it calls attention to underlying problems, but 17 

## when unknown people die or become afflicted, the 18 

## loss to family and friends is felt just as 19 

## deeply but without public attention and without 20 

## public outcry. 21 

## Pollution, whether from cigarettes or 22 

## cars, from buses or old coal-powered plants 23 

## contribute to the toxic stew that has become our 24 

## air.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 138 1 

## Metro Chicago's air quality suffers, 2 

## and so does its population. 3 

## Technology is available to eliminate 4 

## or greatly diminish emissions, but it is 5 

## contrary to the polluters' bottom line. 6 

## You are the standard bearers and the 7 

## department charged with protecting the 8 

## environment, and can help us and can help to 9 

## determine whether you dole out life or dole out 10 

## death. 11 

## Unfortunately, when someone dies due 12 

## to heart disease, as my father did six months 13 

## ago, my mother seven weeks after him, also a 14 

## heart-related issue, it's never "He died of 15 

## pollution." 16 

## But I know unequivocally from the work 17 

## that I've done that it's a major contributor to 18 

## premature deaths. 19 

## Pollution trading credits deem some 20 

## communities unfortunate by receiving the lion's 21 

## share of the pollutants and the toxins. 22 

## These games do little to benefit the 23 

## whole of society, and I find it appalling. 24 

## Communities like mine, our current

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 139 1 

## one, our dream home, have been downwind of a 2 

## hospital incinerator and caught between four old 3 

## coal-fired power plants, both east and west of 4 

## us, and I never knew I had sinuses until we 5 

## moved there, and I can count on at least four or 6 

## five sinus infections a year. 7 

## And I found out that that's very 8 

## widespread among our neighbors, "Oh, I get 9 

## antibiotics." Who wants to live their life on 10 

## antibiotics? 11 

## Many of the pollutants fall most 12 

## heavily within a 30- to 50-mile radius. 13 

## Here in Illinois, we have the 14 

## misfortune of an incredibly unlevel playing 15 

## field when it comes to environmental protection. 16 

## Yes, we have our do-gooder 17 

## organizations like Sierra Club, American Lung, 18 

## as well as activists such as myself, but how can 19 

## we speak with a state that allows its former 20 

## head of Illinois EPA to leave their posts only 21 

## to go to work as lobbyists and lawyers for the 22 

## very polluters that are posing the risks to us? 23 

## This has happened to former 24 

## administrators in recent years. The benefits of

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 140 1 

## membership seem limitless when it comes to 2 

## industries, and former players to their 3 

## advantage, and to the disadvantage of every 4 

## Illinois resident. 5 

## Then, again, that has been known to 6 

## happen I know on the federal level as well, but 7 

## I find that what we have most control over is 8 

## what happens locally. 9 

## I can't seem to affect what happens in 10 

## Washington, and I'm just grateful for the 11 

## opportunity to be able to address you. 12 

## The onus of proof should be on the 13 

## polluters to prove that their emissions are safe 14 

## for the public, but it seems that it's reversed. 15 

## And we're here. We're trying to 16 

## prevent death and disease. We know how costly 17 

## -- and I was aghast to see, you know, from your 18 

## figures, just based on that alone as a society, 19 

## how can we afford not to go ahead and require 20 

## that? 21 

## That the pollution controls, whether 22 

## it's the scrubbers or whatever you deem 23 

## necessary for these polluters, be taken into 24 

## account.

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 141 1 

## To me that's just most critical. 2 

## During the past nine years, I've been 3 

## attending city council, village hall, county 4 

## board meetings with a campaign that I initiated 5 

## called "Stand Up/Save Lives Campaign." 6 

## At that time, because I was one of the 7 

## -- successful in killing the incinerator 8 

## project, Monley Association asked me to help 9 

## them with something with the Federal Clean Air 10 

## standards, and then I found myself as a director 11 

## on the Illinois Environmental Council, you know, 12 

## where I served as director for seven years. The 13 

## last two as their vice president. 14 

## I initiated that campaign while with 15 

## IEC, but since leaving them, thank goodness, he 16 

## buys stamps, because I use his stamps and all 17 

## his office equipment, and I'm in business. 18 

## What I've done is tried to collect 19 

## evidence for you, and I didn't bring you a set 20 

## of all of the resolutions, but I thought what 21 

## better way to impress somebody because I 22 

## understand you have maybe 20 to 30 people coming 23 

## to testify. 24 

## This is evidence of all the documents

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 142 1 

## that I've done presentations in front of who 2 

## adopted resolutions representing, however many 3 

## thousand constituents are in that jurisdiction 4 

## and this was specific to the exemptions of old 5 

## coal-fired power plants from the strictest 6 

## standard of Federal Clean Air Act, and I don't 7 

## know if any of you are from Illinois. Or you 8 

## are. 9 

## Oh, God, well, you'll recognize these, 10 

## and I can do this in 2 minutes, but I give you 11 

## -- he's timing me on it. Because sometimes you 12 

## only get 3 minutes to speak. 13 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: You're okay tonight. 14 

## MRS. MAUREEN HEADINGTON: Thank you. 15 

## I've received resolutions from 102 governing 16 

## bodies representing over 8 million Illinois 17 

## residents who adopted resolutions seeking to end 18 

## the exemptions of old coal-fired power plants 19 

## from modern emission standards of the Federal 20 

## Clean Air Act, for all the reasons that, and 21 

## more, that I've laid out before you. 22 

## The Village of Addison, Village of 23 

## Antioch, City of Aurora, Village of Barrington, 24 

## Bloomingdale, Bridgeview, Brookfield, Burbank,

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 143 1 

## Burr Ridge. That was my first. That's where I 2 

## live. 3 

## Carpentersville, Cary, Chicago 4 

## Heights, Chicago Ridge, the town of Cicero, 5 

## Clarendon Hills, City of Countryside, City of 6 

## Darien, Deerfield, Des Plaines, Downers Grove, 7 

## Elmhurst, Elmwood Park, Evanston, Evergreen 8 

## Park, Flossmoor, Forest Park, Glen Ellyn, 9 

## Glendale Heights, Glenview, Grayslake, Village 10 

## of Hanover Park, City of Harvey, Harwood 11 

## Heights, Hawthorne Woods, City of Hickory Hills, 12 

## Highland Park, Hinsdale, Hometown, Homewood, 13 

## Indian Head Park, Justice, LaGrange, LaGrange 14 

## Park, Lake in the Hills, Lemont, Libertyville, 15 

## Lincolnshire, Lincolnwood, Lindenhurst, Lisle, 16 

## Lockport, Lyons, City of McHenry, City of 17 

## Markham, Maywood, Village of Melrose Park, 18 

## Mokena, Morton Grove, Naperville, Niles, 19 

## Norridge, North Barrington, Northbrook, 20 

## Northlake, Oak Park, Oak Brook Terrace, Orland 21 

## Park, Oswego, Palos Park, Park Forest, Park 22 

## Ridge, Phoenix, Posen, City of Prospect Heights, 23 

## villages of Riverdale, Riverside, Roselle, 24 

## Schaumburg, Skokie, Summit, Tinley Park, Vernon

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 144 1 

## Hills, Villa Park, Warrenville, Waukegan, 2 

## Western Springs, Westmont, City of Wheaton, 3 

## Willow Springs, Willowbrook, Wood Dale, the City 4 

## of Zion, and when I -- after getting the numbers 5 

## of cities and villages, I went to the 6 

## conferences that are representative to these 7 

## communities and received separate resolutions 8 

## from the West Central Municipal Conference, the 9 

## DuPage Mayors and Managers Conference, the 10 

## DuPage County Board, the Lake County Board, the 11 

## Will County Board, the Kane County Board, the 12 

## Cook County Board, Lyons Township, Bremen 13 

## Township and Rich Township, which is why I have 14 

## not had a vacation to 10 years. 15 

## Some of these resolutions happened -- 16 

## were initiated quickly where the need was 17 

## obviously seen, and they were able to do it. 18 

## Others took a period of sometimes up 19 

## to six months and even a year to go through 20 

## various subcommittees that they had to go 21 

## through in their jurisdiction. 22 

## And I will submit to you this 23 

## represents thousands of hours of work, and, 24 

## also, more importantly, what 8 million people in

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 145 1 

## metropolitan Chicago wanted, are deserving of I 2 

## feel. Thank you. 3 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Thank you very much. 4 

## You can just about add Washington, 5 

## D.C. to your list now I think. 6 

## Actually, we would like that list I 7 

## think. 8 

## "102 Governments Representing Over 9 

## 8,000,000 Illinois Residents." 10 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: We will keep it up 11 

## here. 12 

## Thank you so much. 13 

## Let me ask if anyone has any 14 

## questions. 15 

## The "Stand Up/Save Lives 16 

## Campaign," is it sort of an ongoing effort then? 17 

## MRS. MAUREEN HEADINGTON: Actually, 18 

## right now I had to put it on a back burner 19 

## because metro Chicago was slated -- about 20 

## 3 years ago we got a letter from the Union of 21 

## Concerned Scientists. 22 

## It was a public hearing in Joliet 23 

## involving the transport of high-level nuclear 24 

## waste for potential reprocessing here as part of

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 146 1 

## the Global Nuclear Energy Partnership Project, 2 

## and I went to that public hearing. 3 

## I was the only person from Cook County 4 

## there. It was not advertised as it should have 5 

## been. 6 

## I let local press know about it, and I 7 

## did the only thing I know how to do. 8 

## I started getting resolutions, and I 9 

## did get the Cook County Board to give me one 10 

## representing the 5 million people in metro 11 

## Chicago and Cook County. 12 

## Interestingly, every single County 13 

## Board Commissioner, whether a Dem or a 14 

## Republican, asked for a co-sponsor on this. 15 

## The county where this is slated to go 16 

## would not do it. 17 

## In fact, they had me pulled off the 18 

## agenda for their Public Health and Safety 19 

## Committee Meeting, which I had been asked to 20 

## speak at along with a nuclear scientist. 21 

## So, you know, I have been very focused 22 

## on that because of what's been happening in 23 

## Washington, and the fact that even though GNUP 24 

## is no longer in name, it is in theory, and talk

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 147 1 

## about subsidies, I think it pales to some of the 2 

## ones to the coal plants in terms of nuclear. 3 

## So to the extent I can do these things 4 

## together, I never call something over. 5 

## If I am in a position or can meet a 6 

## public official, I will approach them about an 7 

## opportunity to appear before them, but right now 8 

## my main focus has been, and we have been 9 

## successful in keeping the GNUP from our 10 

## community. We got many, many people to respond 11 

## and many communities to respond, and, hopefully, 12 

## I don't know. Sometimes things are just too 13 

## big. 14 

## The Davids win one every now and then. 15 

## We did with the toxic waste 16 

## incinerators, and it was such a lesson to me 17 

## that when we think our one voice doesn't matter, 18 

## of course it was my voice and other voices 19 

## similar, but I also resent that I had to leave 20 

## my job, that I had to pay $1,500 for postage to 21 

## let every home in my community know what was 22 

## coming, and to pay for radio station ads that I 23 

## had to learn to write and myself, my husband 24 

## with his running stopwatch, and I spent $15,000

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 148 1 

## keeping -- to try to kill something that never 2 

## should have been part of Illinois law. 3 

## And I think we have got a really good 4 

## governor now, but there are so many issues here, 5 

## and I'm afraid corruption is something that, 6 

## especially in the energy sector, and, you know, 7 

## so I mean you're front burner in terms of -- no 8 

## pun intended -- dealing with it in the best way 9 

## for the public because industry has more 10 

## advocates than it ever needs, and the numbers of 11 

## lobbyists, and I don't call myself a lobbyist. 12 

## I'm just a voice. And others are 13 

## trying to doing what I'm trying to do, and I'm 14 

## just grateful for this opportunity, and it was 15 

## worth the drive in to see you. 16 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: Well, thank you. 17 

## We very much appreciate you coming. 18 

## Thank you both very much. 19 

## MR. VINCENT HEADINGTON: Thank you. 20 

## MRS. MAUREEN HEADINGTON: Thank you. 21 

## CHAIRMAN CLARK: The hearing is 22 

## officially closed. Thank you. 23 24

## 312-421-3377 Thompson Court Reporters, Inc. Page 149 1 

## STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS: 2 

## COUNTY OF C O O K ) 3 4 

## CYNTHIA J. CONFORTI, being first 5 

## duly sworn on oath says that she is a court 6 

## reporter doing business in the City of Chicago; 7 

## that she reported in shorthand the proceedings 8 

## given at the taking of said hearing and that the 9 

## foregoing is a true and correct transcript of 10 

## her shorthand notes so taken as aforesaid and 11 

## contains all the proceedings given at said 12 

## hearing. 13 14 15



## _ Cynthia J. Conforti, C. S. R. 16 

## License No. 084-003064 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

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