### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

Department of Energy 950 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W. Washington, D.C.

Wednesday, August 7, 2013 10:10 a.m.

Reported by: Christine Allen, Capital Reporting Company

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 F ACILITATOR: 3 N eil Eisner, Navigant Consulting 4 5 P ARTICIPANTS: 6 K arim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 7 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) 8 A shley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy 9 T imothy Ballo, EarthJustice 10 L aura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy 11 J eff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning 12 J ohn Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy 13 M ary Dane, Traulsen 14 L aura Degitsz, Navigant Consulting 15 P aul L. Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc. 16 M ark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products 17 J ohn Gorman, CSA Group 18 C harles Hon, True Manufacturing 19 J ill Hootman, Trane 20 M arshall Hunt, Pacific Gas and Electric Company 21 J ohn Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc. 22 T om Johnson, Daikin McQuay

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 P ARTICIPANTS: 2 J eff Kleiss, Lochinvar 3 M ichael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC 4 A ris Marantan, Ph.D., U.S. Department of Energy 5 K aren Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 6 P eter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development 7 F rank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc. 8 M ichael Rivest, Navigant Consulting 9 H arvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient 10 Economy 11 R onald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation 12 J udd Smith, CSA Group 13 F rank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 14 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI) 15 M ike Stem, Intertek 16 P hillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products 17 R usty Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing 18 B ill Tritsis, AHRI 19 C ollin Weber, Navigant Consulting 20 R obert J. Whitwell, Carrier Corporation 21 W es Wostal, ClimateMaster 22

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we had a few 3 r emaining issues from last week. One of them was the 4 m otors. Has everyone had a chance to go back and think 5 a bout it, look at their products, figure out what the 6 i mpact would be? 7 MR. THARP: This is Rusty with Goodman. What 8 w e found out -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Just a second. 10 MR. EISNER: Whoever is on the phone, mute 11 y our phone, unless you're talking to us. Okay, Rusty. 12 MR. THARP: Had a discussion with Regal 13 B eloit on the issue, and, again, industry likes the 14 g eneral concept, but we do need to dig into some more 15 d etails because most of our products, the motors that 16 a re used in our products are air-over motors, which are 17 n ot subject to the regulation, to my understanding. 18 And the motors that we use, also, there is 19 n ot a specified test procedure on how to determine the 20 e fficiency of the motors. So one motor manufacturer 21 m ay test with very minimal air running over the motor 22 a s you're doing their dyno test to determine

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 e fficiency. And another motor manufacturer may run 2 h igher. And the more air you put over it, the more 3 e fficient it is. 4 And also, what isn't defined yet clearly is, 5 a t what point do you rate efficiency of the motor? Do 6 y ou take the efficiency at the operating condition of 7 t he test as applied, or do you rate it -- main plate 8 e fficiency? 9 Those are discussions that we need to have to 10 m ake sure that we are all on a level playing field and 11 t hat we all do things the same way. Maybe what the 12 c onversation is that -- what would probably be a good 13 i dea is to have a telephone conference with some of the 14 m otor manufacturers, potentially next week if possible, 15 s o that we can -- 16 (Missing audio.) 17 MR. THARP: This may be adequate for minimum 18 c ertification, but we are seeing -- as the equipment 19 b ecomes more proficient, we are seeing the differences 20 i n part load efficiency, for example, between PSCs and 21 P CMs. 22 If we proceed along the lines DOE is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 s uggesting, it's an -- through the issue of minimum 2 s tandards - 3 (Missing audio.) 4 MR. EISNER: Does DOE want to speak to that, 5 o r do you want to talk first? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no. Go ahead. 7 MR. RIVEST: I have a question on these air8 o ver motors. This applies to a special environment or 9

- - 10 MR. THARP: This is Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 11 N o, it's most -- they indicated that most of their 12 c ustomers, the typical motor carrier, there are 13 a pplications in our products where you may use a motor 14 t hat's not rated for air-over. So there is a mix. 15 A nd, you know, one of the things that would need to be 16 d iscussed is, what happens if the base motor is an air17 o ver motor, if the higher horsepower motors are not 18 a ir- over. Is this really -- you know, what is the 19 p roper comparison for that situation? 20 Also, he indicated that the rulemaking for 21 t he 10 CFR 441-446 with fractional horsepower motors 22 d oes not include PSC, which pretty much everything the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 m anufacturers have less than five tons, the base motor 2 w ould be a PSC motor. So there's -- I'm a mechanical, 3 n ot an electrical, engineer. I know there's different 4 t ypes of motors. I know there's other types of motors 5 t hat are included in 446, not the PSC. 6 There are some issues that -- between the 7 t est process, the rating process. For example, a 8 m anufacturer that's name-plated on the motor, the 9 m anufacturer can request a motor -- an equipment 10 m anufacturer can request the motor manufacturer to put 11 a specific rating on the motor. 12 You can go off of the horsepower nameplate, 13 y ou can go off of horsepower. The manufacturer could 14 t ry to get around the system by using a lower 15 h orsepower rating on the base motor, and you put your 16 n ameplate rating on the higher motors. So you want to 17 m ake sure, you know, you've taken care of -- we want to 18 m ake sure we're on the same playing field, level 19 p laying field. But those are issues that need to be 20 a ddressed. 21 Again, we like the overall concept, because 22 i t gets us to where we would like to be. But there are

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 j ust some issues that need to be worked out. And 2 t hat's basically what -- in the three business days 3 w e've had since the end of our last meeting, that's 4 b asically what we found out. 5 MR. WHITWELL: I think the issue that you're 6 r eferring to, though, is mostly on the -- tends to be 7 o n the smaller range of commercial packaged equipment. 8 A t a certain size, you get into using the general 9 p urpose motor, which usually they have a proper 10 p rocedure and they do have a nameplate. 11 They of course are on -- the issues on the 46 12 a nd 58 frame motors, they are smaller -- 13 MR. THARP: It would probably be -- well, 14 i t's definitely less than 55,000 definitely had the 15 i ssue. And probably a small commercial probably does. 16 A large commercial may, and the very large does not. 17 W hen you get -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: A very large commercial is 19 w hat? 20 MR. THARP: Large commercial is I think 21 g reater than 10 or 20. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. So --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 MR. THARP: Ten to 20 range. Some may, some 2 m ay not. If you get bigger than 20, almost everything 3 i s per the NEMA tables. 4 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. And in 5 p articular where this occurs is fans -- 6 MR. THARP: Yes. 7 MR. FLY: -- in the smaller products. At 8 l east that's where a lot of the base motors and other 9 t hings are being applied as alternate designs. So, I 10 m ean, it is a small issue, but it is an issue because 11 t hat whole part of the industry is evolving very 12 q uickly. 13 MR. SACHS: Mark, this is Harvey. Mark and 14 R usty and others, it has been my impression that the 15 s ize ranges in which ECMs are market competitive is -- 16 I mean, price competitive keeps moving up into the 17 h orsepower range. 18 MR. THARP: The conversation we had with 19 R egal Beloit was that they -- some of the competition 20 r ate goes up to five horsepower, whereas, you know, one 21 h orse is sort of -- in for some time, as you indicated 22 i t's got that flat horse. Basically, it's a European -

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1

- 2 (Simultaneous discussion.) 3 MR. EISNER: Other comments? Reactions? 4 MR. WHITWELL: Just one other comment. I 5 a gree with Rusty. We definitely need to identify how 6 w e are going to establish the efficiency level on this. 7 W e just need a process for that. I think that's the 8 t hing we need to resolve. The process looks good, or 9 t he proposal on how to do it looks good. We understand 10 i t. 11 I've had some discussion with my -- with the 12 o ther engineers back in the office, and we understand 13 i t. Now we've got to identify how we're going to 14 e stablish those efficiency levels. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, we can do this a 16 c ouple of different ways. One is you guys can 17 i ndividually talk to your manufacturers and see if you 18 w ant to come up with a solution. DOE can independently 19 t ry to come up with a solution. And probably the best 20 w ay is us to all get in a room, invite the motor 21 m anufacturers to have a side meeting -- we can do it by 22 p hone or whatever, or in person, however, and talk

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 t hrough this -- about where there are holes, where we 2 n eed to address it, what we're trying to do, and see if 3 w e can come up with a common methodology we can all 4 a gree on, so that we can put this to vote before the 5 e nd of the month. 6 MR. WHITWELL: That might be a quicker way, 7 r ight? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, I agree that 9 w ould be quick. As long as everyone is okay with that, 10 w e can proceed with, you know, Jeramy can send out a 11 D oodle poll that includes the motor manufacturers and 12 j ust say, "This is what we're trying to do." 13 Let's have a side bar, and that way we can 14 o fficially -- you know, before the end of August, so 15 t his can officially get voted one way or the other. 16 A re we okay with that? All right. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Next slide. 18 It doesn't matter too much which one. So we 19 t alked about a lot of different issues last week. I 20 t hink everybody wanted to go back and think about how 21 t hey might want to group products. People were still 22 t hinking about how much testing would be appropriate,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 h ow we might determine how much testing to do as part 2 o f the verification program. 3 We did get two emails. Yeah, if you can pull 4 t hat up. 5 Geoff Halley sent an email saying that "I 6 a lso believe that an ongoing program of verification 7 t esting makes no sense whatsoever, other than to 8 p rovide a stream of work to the testing agencies. If 9 n o changes affecting energy efficiency are made, then 10 i t follows that the energy efficiency will remain the 11 s ame, certainly in size class of boilers that we 12 r epresent." 13 At the time he sent this, he said, "I will 14 v ote no on the topic of continue/repeat verification 15 t esting." "On the subject of testing labs in ISO 17025, 16 I am currently conducting a survey of ABMA member 17 c ompanies about their testing capabilities. To date, 18 t he responses indicate that they have the capability to 19 t est the size range of boilers that they produce in 20 t erms of available utility. 21 "A few have product development labs, but 22 t his is the exception rather than the rule. The

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 m ajority have their testing capability in the so-called 2 f ire test area, which is essentially the end of the 3 f actory production line. This part of the facility, in 4 m y opinion, would be unable to meet ISO 17025 5 s tandards. 6 "It seems to me that the major criteria for 7 a dequate testing are an agreed-upon test procedure, 8 c ompetent test personnel, adequate utilities, properly 9 c alibrated instrumentation at the required accuracy, 10 a nd the ability to process the required data. This 11 d oes not require ISO 17025 compliance. Therefore, I 12 w ill vote no to all references to ISO 17025. 13 "On the topic of the manufacturer covering 14 t he expenses of ongoing certification testing" -- and I 15 t hink he meant verification testing there, but I'm not 16 c ertain -- "while this may not be a problem for the 17 s mall capacity boilers, such as those represented by 18 A HRI, it will certainly be a major concern for 19 m anufacturers of larger capacity boilers, such as those 20 i n the ABMA membership. 21 "It is unfortunate that DOE appears to have 22 r elied so heavily on input from the small capacity

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 s egment of the marketplace while leaving the boiler 2 c apacity uncapped. Thus, I will vote no to 3 m anufacturers covering the expense of ongoing 4 c ertification testing." 5 And Peter Molvie said, "At last week's 6 m eeting, I was participating via telephone in the 7 l isten-only mode. As I am not going to be 8 p articipating in this week's meeting, I want to raise 9 m y concerns about the subject of ongoing verification 10 t esting. 11 "I am very concerned about the discussion 12 t hat occurred regarding ongoing verification testing 13 l ast week. It seems to me that such testing is a total 14 w aste of time, money, and resources. Once the 15 e fficiency of a commercial boiler has been established, 16 t here is no reason to continually retest unless 17 s omething changes in the design of the boiler. 18 "The laws of physics and heat transfer 19 c ertainly do not change. And if nothing changes in the 20 d esign of the boiler, there is no reason to continually 21 r etest. If a vote is taken in this week's meeting for 22 a pproval of any form of ongoing verification testing, I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 w ish my vote to be recorded as no. 2 "I further object to the requirement that 3 t esting labs be certified to ISO 17025. This type of 4 q uality assurance could be a sort of overkill for a 5 p rocess as simple as efficiency testing. Most boiler 6 m anufacturers do not have ISO-certified testing labs, 7 a nd requiring such will force manufacturers to join a 8 v oluntary industry certification program at 9 c onsiderable additional expense. I vote no on any 10 p roposal that requires ISO 17025 certified labs. 11 "Lastly, I object to ongoing certification 12 t esting being done at the manufacturer's expense. We 13 i ncur the costs of testing our products when we develop 14 t hem. I do not see why we should have to pay for it 15 a gain on an ongoing basis. I vote no on any proposal 16 t hat requires the manufacturer to pay for verification 17 o r enforcement testing, beyond the testing that was 18 p erformed when the product was developed. 19 And my understanding is that John Sexton is 20 h ere representing Peter Molvie, and that he does have 21 t he ability to negotiate. So -- 22 MR. EISNER: I got an email from Geoff in

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1 r esponse to what I sent back to him asking him whether 2 h e had any options to offer or alternatives to offer. 3 A nd I also asked him whether anybody would be 4 r epresenting him. 5 I got an email stating, "I do not have an 6 a lternate, but I am going to attempt to follow the 7 m eeting as best as I can. As regards the ISO 17025 8 p roblem, I have no objection to it being a requirement 9 f or pure testing labs, but would like to see something 10 t o the effect that when testing is conducted in a large 11 m anufacturer's facility, ISO 17025 does not apply." 12 Geoff, are you on the line now? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't look like it. 14 MR. SEXTON: This is John Sexton from 15 C leaver- Brooks. I am on the line. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So we can still reach an 17 a greement on verification testing, and then we can come 18 u p with some solution, so that we don't have this 19 d erailed right at the start. 20 So keeping in mind the concern of the large 21 b oiler manufacturers, I would like to go ahead and talk 22 a bout the different issues and see what we can come up

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 w ith and see if we can't find some way to address some 2 o f the concerns. 3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I have a 4 p rocess question about this, which is simply that one 5 w ay to look at this is that we have a set of six or 6 s even simultaneous negotiations. Right? And it may 7 w ell be that for this semi-custom large boiler work, a 8 d ifferent verification process is appropriate. 9 So is what you meant that we will set aside 10 t he large boiler issues and negotiate on the rest of 11 t he world for now? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is an option. 13 MS. BARHYDT: We can do that, particularly 14 s ince Geoff doesn't have anyone able to -- 15 MR. SACHS: I would like to make that 16 r epresentation. 17 MS. BARHYDT: -- represent him. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I have 19 c oncerns for the small manufacturers. We will have 20 m ost of the same issues. There aren't very many small 21 m anufacturers that have 17025 certification in their 22 l abs. It would be quite an ordeal to obtain it just

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 b ecause of the documentation requirements. 2 MS. BARHYDT: How does the cost of doing 3 1 7025 compare to the cost of third party testing? 4 MS. DANE: This is Mary Dane from Traulsen. 5 Y ou can have the manufacturer test it, but to be part 6 o f a client test data program or a satellite lab, those 7 c osts can run like $10,000 just to have that 8 c ertification on your lab to be able to perform -- I'm 9 s ure -- you know, I'm not sure how that fits across the 10 t hing. I can only tell you my own personal experience, 11 a nd that's a lot for a big manufacturer -- or a small 12 m anufacturer to come up with. 13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I'm a 14 s mall manufacturer of build-to-order equipment, and I 15 d o have 17025. I'm involved with an independent third 16 p arty 17025 lab, and we are a satellite facility of 17 t heirs. Our cost to enter that program, in just pure 18 d ollars, a check to the laboratory, is $25,000 per 19 y ear. 20 In addition to that, we have -- as Phillip 21 m entioned, there is a substantial amount of 22 r ecordkeeping documentation, certification program back

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 l oops that have to be documented, and an annual 2 i nspection that is included as a part of that $25,000. 3 F or our company, it has been a benefit because that 4 s ame approval we use as part of our safety 5 c ertification program when we are introducing new 6 p roducts. 7 We would expect to use that program, 8 a dditionally, for the efficiency verification in the 9 s ame 17025 lab. So for us it is no additional expense. 10 B ut if you don't have one, and you can't benefit from 11 t he certification assistance that that gives you, then 12 t hose are -- $10,000 is one number that has been used, 13 a nd for our lab the more different test standards you 14 t est to, the more expensive the certification. That 15 m ay explain the difference, because we have multiple 16 t est standards under which we are authorized to serve 17 a s a satellite facility for that 17025 test. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have to have 17025 19 a ccredited labs for one of the accredited test labs to 20 c ome witness tests and certify the results? 21 MR. WHITWELL: No. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So they will still come

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 o ut and they will say, "Yes, the test was done right; 2 y es, these are the right results; yes, their equipment 3 w as calibrated; yes" -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: They're safety tests. Is it 5 t he same for performance? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, the same for performance. 7 I think the last time I -- this is Jill Hootman from 8 T rane. I think the last time I gave the example of a 9 v ery large -- one million btu exchanger that we had to 10 t est in our lab. And we are 17025 certified to do all 11 t he procedures, but we don't pay the money. We don't 12 g o as far as paying the money. 13 So, you know, what they did is ETL gave us a 14 l ist ahead of time of the things that they were going 15 t o, you know, certify and look at. And we showed them 16 a ll the calibrations and all of that kind of stuff 17 b efore they -- you know, when they came and they 18 w itnessed the test. 19 So, yes, it can be done, and it doesn't 20 r equire that 17025 was paid for and accredited every 21 s ingle time. In that particular lab, we run the 22 p rocedures but we don't pay the money.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. also, 2 w ithin AHRI, some product sections allow witnessed 3 t esting at the manufacturer's facility. Some do not. 4 S ome require testing at the third party labs. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: How does the cost compare for 6 t he witnessed testing where you're not accredited 7 v ersus accreditation? Is it -- I mean, is it at a 8 p rice -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: I'm trying to figure out does 10 t hat help reduce the burden, or is it just kind of a 11 c hoice that they are both fairly comfortable? 12 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I'm 13 n ot 100 percent familiar with the actual cost of it. 14 B ut the way UL works it is there is a witness program 15 a nd where the actual client does their own testing, 16 w hich that's what Mary and Frank were talking about. 17 So when it's a witnessed test, it is at a 18 l ower cost. I'm not sure how much lower it is, but for 19 t he witnessing a person goes out to the lab that the 20 t est will be performed at, and they oversee the testing 21 a nd they check all the calibration and they check the 22 s etup and they witness the test to make sure that it's

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 d one properly, instead of forcing that lab or that 2 m anufacturer to go through all the documentation 3 p rocesses, you know, just like -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 5 MR. KOJAK: -- we would, you know, but we 6 j ust go there and check up to make sure everything is 7 d one properly. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MR. SACHS: Mike, do you also offer -- this 10 i s Harvey. Do you also offer a witness protection 11 p rogram? 12 MR. KOJAK: For the right amount of money, 13 I 'm sure they would. 14 MR. SMITH: This is Judd Smith with CSA. In 15 o ur program, we have a 17025 checklist that we go 16 m anufacturer's labs. We do a process where we accredit 17 t he lab internally to conduct the test according to 18 1 7025 testing. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So for the products other than 20 t he large boilers -- 21 MS. MEYERS: What are you calling "large 22 b oilers"?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 MS. BARHYDT: I don't really know. 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I'm 3 c oncerned when we just talk about large boilers. What 4 h appens to be boiler manufacturers speaking, it is 5 r eally the built- to-order industry, those of us that 6 d on't stock anything and have to build to order just 7 f or the test. And in many cases that thing you build 8 h as no value unless it is sold to a customer. There is 9 n o value to it, so it can be extremely expensive. 10 I use the example we could have, depending on 11 w hat product is selected, the cost of products ranging 12 a nywhere from $10,000 for a small unit, like our 13 p roducts, to $200,000 plus, just depending on which 14 m odel you select. 15 At the end of that testing, if it doesn't 16 h ave a customer to go to, it is worthless. It will be 17 d umped. So it's not just boilers; it is build-to-order 18 m anufacturers. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that raises a 20 d ifferent point, though, than was brought out in the 21 e mails, which had to do with laboratory accreditation 22 a nd the verification testing. That's not that it's not

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 a n important point; it's just a different point. 2 MS. BARHYDT: That sounds like the selection 3 i ssue. 4 So it sounds to me like if the -- well, there 5 a re several options. One is to just require 17025 6 a ccreditation for whatever lab is performing the 7 t esting. Another option would be to require witness 8 t esting if it's done in the manufacturer's lab. 9 A nother option would be to require witness testing and 10 l ab accreditation. I mean, but it sounds to me like 11 t here are a variety of different options here, so I'd 12 b e interested in hearing -- 13 MR. EISNER: Do you want to put them up on 14 t he board so it's clear what we're talking about, and 15 t hen we can ask for discussion and comment? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Whether or not a lab has to be 17 a ccredited to do a verification testing, and this -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are we going to need 19 v erification for -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. Everything. I mean, 21 t hat's what we were talking about last week, so that's 22 w hat I was considering. So last week we were talking

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 a bout a set of standards for a verification program, 2 r egardless of whether it was a DOE program, a DOE 3 a pproved program run by another party, and so that's 4 w hat I'm contemplating. 5 MR. EISNER: Do you want to keep the -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Another option is ISO 17025, 7 t hird party oversight at manufacturer's facility. 8 MS. BARHYDT: And the other one would be the 9 c ombination of both, third party oversight and required 10 b y the manufacturer's lab to have accreditation. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I want another option, 12 o bviously. 13 MR. EISNER: Do we want to put a note up 14 t here that it doesn't matter, it could either be a DOE 15 p rogram -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: Sure. 17 MR. EISNER: So it's clear on that. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this would be a DOE 19 v erification or a DOE-approved, which the DOE-approved 20 c ould be, you know, any entity, although it would be a 21 c ertification body or a manufacturer, if they want to 22 r un their own verification program.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 MR. EISNER: I'm sure we have those two 2 t hings, too, as examples. So we could see if people 3 w ant to add others to that list. 4 MR. SACHS: Ashley, this is -- I'm not sure, 5 b ut this is saying the ICPs are third parties or will 6 b e excluded from doing the verification programs. I 7 d on't have a problem with it, but I just want to know 8 w hich we are trying to say. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're using a different term. 10 W e're using Department-approved verification program in 11 o ur wording. But I think third party oversight I see 12 a s a lab, a testing facility. So third party oversight 13 w ould be a third party lab is overseeing testing at a 14 m anufacturer's facility, mediating the need for any 15 t ype of accreditation by the manufacturer facilities 16 t hemselves. 17 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss. Can I 18 s uggest that we add -- make that third party NRTL, 19 n ationally recognized testing laboratory? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We like acronyms in the 21 g overnment. 22 MR. WHITWELL: So do we.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 MR. SACHS: As opposed to NETL. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, we don't ever want to 3 t alk about them. 4 (Simultaneous discussion.) 5 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss again. If we have 6 t he third party lab oversight of the tests, what other 7 f unction would DOE like to see on -- or what other 8 f eature would give DOE confidence in the results, 9 b eyond that? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think DOE has -- at 11 t his point, it's all up for discussion. I don't think 12 w e have an opinion at this point. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have something in mind 14 t hat you think we should? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think the question 16 g oes both ways. I mean, if we were testing at a third 17 p arty lab, you guys -- or at a lab, any lab, let's say 18 n ot at the -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: If you -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- we're testing at a lab, 21 w hat confidence would you need in the results? If I'm 22 n ot testing at your lab, but I'm testing at a different

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 l ab, I can test at any lab, what would you like to see 2 o f that lab? I mean, it goes both ways, right? So 3 i t's not just what DOE would want to see, but it's also 4 w hat you would want to see of a lab that DOE may 5 c hoose, if it's not your own facility, if it's not, you 6 k now, one of the three we have. 7 Right. I mean, I understand the smiles 8 a round the room, but that's really what we're talking 9 a bout here. If I was to pick a lab and there is this 10 n ew lab that entered the market, and they said, "Hey, 11 D OE, where is there a testing lab, we can test, we have 12 n o accreditation," is that okay? Should we give it a 13 s hot? 14 (Simultaneous discussion.) 15 MR. MYERS: Well, I mean, I know what the 16 a cronym stands for, but what are the -- but doesn't it 17 h ave to have 17025 accreditation to be a nationally 18 r ecognized testing -- 19 MR. STEPHENS: I hate to say it, because I 20 k now we've already had the conversation, but my 21 r esponse to this question, Ashley, is it depends on if 22 w e get to send our engineers there to do the setup or

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 n ot. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's assume you don't. What 3 d o you want to see? 4 MR. STEPHENS: Then we have to have some way 5 o f having confidence. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what does that -- I mean, 7 i t goes both ways, right? What if I don't send my 8 e ngineers? 9 MR. STEPHENS: The way we have built 10 c onfidence is by doing the test in their lab, doing the 11 t est at their lab, and making sure that we have 12 r easonably similar results. 17025 doesn't say they are 13 g oing to have good results. It says they say what 14 t hey're going to do and they do what they say they're 15 g oing to do. That's all. It doesn't say they are good 16 a t what they do. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, what you're 18 a rticulating is more of participation in a round robin 19 t esting program. I mean, that's pretty much what 20 y ou're saying. 21 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's pretty much

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 w hat you just described, that my results are the same 2 a s theirs. The only way to do that is a -- 3 MR. KOJAK: Well, at least that is part of 4 t he 17025 environment, to do a round robin 5 d ocumentation of the tests that you perform in the 6 d ifferent facilities, and that is part of the audit 7 t hat an ISO 17025 lab goes through every year is they 8 w ant to see that documentation. 9 It's part of the process is you have to have 10 r ound robin testing, unless you call it in your 11 f acilities, get other people to prove that your labs 12 a re accurate and what you're doing is a representation 13 o f what is really -- the unit is actually doing. 14 T hat's part the ISO 17025 requirement. 15 MR. STEPHENS: The water heater industry 16 t ried this several -- I believe it was 10 or 12 years 17 a go, with horrible results because of shipping damage, 18 p redominantly because of shipping damage. They 19 t ransferred the product from one lab to another, and 20 t hat -- I don't know of any examples where it has 21 r eally worked out well for a true round robin 22 d iscussion.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 2 N ational. I guess when we're talking about kind of the 3 o ther options, and if we talk about whether it's 4 a nother third party or whether it's the manufacturer 5 w hen you certify the lab, I mean, I think you are quite 6

- - you want a company that has displayed competency in 7 b eing able to deal with that, so -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. 9 MR. BAUMAN: -- the way they do it now with 10 t heir witness test programs is basically you -- in its 11 s implest form, at least once a year you have to test 12 t he product in your facility, send that exact same 13 p roduct with your test results to the lab, and that is 14

- - and also, along with your documentation package 15 w ith, you know, information about who your lab techs 16 a re and your equipment, things like that, and then, you 17 k now, then they test it and certify that you are within 18 t olerance on matching what their results were. 19 So you display that competency to be able to 20 d o that test. And, you know, whether that's something 21 t hat DOE would manage separately from a third party 22 w ould make it simpler or less costly, I would assume

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 b ecause obviously as we've talked that it's an 2 e xpensive program to be in, you know, to be able to -- 3 y ou know, maybe when a lab applies to DOE to be able to 4 b e a DOE-certified testing facility that maybe that 5 f irst step is you have to certify to it that the test 6 l ab -- you know, certify competency and then provide 7 y our equipment list, and things like that, to DOE. 8 MR. STEPHENS: There is a Six Sigma tool to 9 v erify accuracy of a measurement. Three parts, do the 10 t est three times with three different people running 11 t he test. And it's well documented, if you have such 12 a nd such repeatability, and it's a technical -- for us, 13 t hat would be difficult, but -- at least it is for 14 d ifferent manufacturers -- to do that sort of thing. 15 MS. MEYERS: Doesn't the issue really come in 16 w ith these really large boilers? I mean, if you're 17 b uilding a 10 million btu boiler, you're not going to 18 b e able to do round robin. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think -- 20 MS. MEYERS: The issue that we need to be 21 f ocusing on to me are the boilers, which I think we 22 n eed to define what's a large boiler.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think there's going to be 2 e xceptions. I mean, it sounds to me like we are going 3 t o come up -- we hopefully are going to come up with 4 r equirements for what we would call a verification 5 p rogram, whether that be a DOE verification program, an 6 i ndustry-run verification program, or a manufacturer 7 r unning their own verification program for their own 8 p roducts. But to me the latter two were approved by 9 D OE, met a certain product -- the idea would be to 10 n egotiate that amount. 11 Yes, your answer is there are going to be 12 e xceptions to the rule. There always -- there is going 13 t o have to be for us to be able to negotiate the 14 r equirements. I would say negotiate the body of the 15 r equirements first and then we will talk about the 16 e xceptions, what needs to be exceptions later, such 17 t hat we can get to a yes. Because otherwise we are 18 g oing to get so confused with the different 19 r equirements that we are never going to get anywhere. 20 A t least that is my suggestion. 21 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. One 22 o f the things that could possibly happen if, you know,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 t here was this DOE-approved VICP third party lab, and a 2 m anufacturer was shopping to see which VICP they wanted 3 t o join. Part of the requirements or the -- from the 4 m anufacturer would be for there to be an internal round 5 r obin between the different VICP organizations and 6 t hemselves to verify that that lab is actually 7 p erforming the test and getting the same results that 8 t hey do internally, to coordinate between themselves. 9 And once that's done and they have the 10 c onfidence in the third party VICP, then, you know, 11 t hey can join that VICP because they know that they are 12 g etting the same results. 13 MS. DANE: This is Mary Dane from Traulsen. 14 T here doesn't exist -- well, there exists one VICP 15 p rogram for commercial refrigeration. And most people 16 w ho don't belong to it don't -- it isn't because they 17 d on't like them, it's just that it's expensive to be a 18 p art of and to join them. 19 We already have verification programs in 20 p lace that we use for EnergyStar and that we use for 21 s afety testing and things, you know, along those lines. 22 W e don't want to have to join the VICP to satisfy DOE,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 b ecause the VICP uses UL and uses ETL and uses all of 2 t he same labs that we would use ourselves. 3 So why would we go out and pay extra to 4 b elong to a program that's not required in our 5 i ndustry? And there will be a lot of pushback from CRE 6 i f that becomes a requirement, that we can't use a 7 t hird party certification lab to be able to do our 8 t esting. 9 Now, I would ask that if it's a third party 10 N RTL, and they have to have 17025 to do it, that they 11 a lso be -- that they also be able to recognize our 12 e quipment. I think I brought this up in an earlier 13 m eeting. We don't want you spending -- you know, we 14 d on't want to verify through a lab that only does VCRs 15 o r, you know, DVDs, or whatever the technology is. We 16 w ant to go to a lab that has tested. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: How do we ensure that? 18 MS. DANE: Because it will be in their 19 r egistration. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: They will be approved to run 21 t hose tests. 22 MR. GORMAN: This is John Gorman from CSA.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 T here is an accreditation program that all third 2 p arties go through. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 4 MR. GORMAN: And if you get accreditation to 5 d o these tests, you are accredited by a -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 7 MR. GORMAN: -- to do that. ILAC is the body 8 t hat actually -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's in their scope, right? 10 MR. GORMAN: There is the ability for a third 11 p arty laboratory to conduct programs and safety -- you 12 k now, EnergyStar and things of that nature. And every 13 o ne of those programs is built around 17025, every 14 s ingle one of them, that's a precursor to using the 15 p rogram. You must be compliant with that. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 17 MR. GORMAN: So every test that they run for 18 s afety and other things always starts off with the 19 l aboratory being verified by us as compliant with 20 1 7025. 21 MS. DANE: We do not want to add another 22 l ayer of people handling our tests. We have already

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 g ot existing programs that have been proven to be good. 2 W e want to keep working the same way we do with our 3 o ther verification testing, not do something different. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: How does this look? You have 5 o ne or the other, and you must have the DOE test 6 p rocedure and their scope. 7 MS. DANE: I would say that would be 8 r easonable, but they would have to have the DOE test 9 p rocedure and the scope. 10 MR. BAUMAN: Jeff Bauman from National. So 11 h ere we are taking out the option of a manufacturer 12 d irectly having their lab approved, unless their 13 m anufacturer's lab is ISO 17025. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or the manufacturer -- the 15 s econd part of that, right, I mean, or he comes and 16 d oes testing, oversees testing in your facility. 17 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. But the third option -- 18 t he other option that was brought up that I thought was 19 b eing put on the table also was the manufacturer would 20 s omehow through DOE certify their lab as DOE approved, 21 s howing competency, and providing the documentation to 22 p ay for the third party -- the costs of the third

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 p arty. I mean, again, you know, a lot of us already 2 p ay that third party cost when they command the annual 3 f ees. 4 If we're trying to make this as reliable but 5 l ess expensive on manufacturers to -- you know, do we 6 w ant to have -- should there be an option that the 7 m anufacturer can directly -- I don't know the answer to 8 t hat. I'm just -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're asking DOE to become 10 a n accreditation body. A different story. 11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. 12 MR. BAUMAN: I thought you said that already, 13 t hat we -- 14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I just 15 j otted down a list of what are the possibilities so 16 t hat we are looking at everything at one time. In 17 d escending order of, I'll call it certainty, the first 18 w ould be testing in a 17025 laboratory within its 19 s cope, whatever is there, testing in a 17025 laboratory 20 w ithin its scope. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Third party laboratory you're 22 t alking about.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 MR. MYERS: If it's 17025, by definition it 2 h as to be third party, so yes. But I just didn't add 3 t hose words in because that's inherent in 17025. They 4 d on't allow self-certification. You have to get an 5 i ndependent third party to be a 17025 lab. 6 The second is testing in a manufacturer's lab 7 b y 17025 personnel within its scope. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: This isn't something a third 9 p arty lab or an NRTL -- 10 MR. MYERS: NRTL and 17025 are part of the 11 s ame thing. If you're 17025, you're going to be a -- 12 y ou're not going to do it if you're not nationally 13 r ecognized. 14 The second was testing in the manufacturer's 15 l ab by the 17025 personnel, again, within its scope. 16 The third is testing in a manufacturer's lab 17 u nder a 17025 satellite program within its scope, so 18 t hat the personnel running the test are covered under 19 t he 17025 lab's controls. 20 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman. I thought 21 t hat DOE becoming -- for commercial refrigeration and 22 o ther products, California does that. You register

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 d irectly with California -- your lab facility. 2 MR. MYERS: I'll get to that one here, too. 3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. If they can do it, you 4 c an do it, Ashley. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 6 MR. MYERS: She is typing it up. She is 7 t yping them up. So I'll just be quiet for a moment 8 w hile she types them up. 9 MR. STEPHENS: Ashley, this is Phillip 10 S tephens, HTP. What is important to the Department? 11 I s it to have a lab accredited or certified? Or to 12 h ave confidence in the test, or both? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Confidence in the test report 14 a nd results. And to some extent, I mean, this is -- I 15 d on't know, it's really -- that's for both sides, for 16 y ou to be confident and for us to be confident. So how 17 d o we get here? It may not be 17025. It may be -- I 18 m ean, right now we have in our regs that we will only 19 t est in a 17025 facility for enforcement, because 20 t hat's some of the comments we got in previously. So 21 t hat was important to people. 22 But we are trying to say, okay, what are the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1 e xpectations around the table to give us that 2 c onfidence in the results? What should the 3 r equirements be? And then we can talk about -- I mean, 4 t hen it becomes, okay, how do I show those 5 r equirements? Because in order to gain approval from 6 D OE, to the Department-approved verification program, 7 w hether it be a manufacturer or a third party, you 8 w ould have to show that you meet those requirements 9 s omehow, for whatever requirements. 10 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. I guess we all have 11 d ifferent opinions about this. I mean, it is 12 g oing to be difficult to have us agree. Couldn't we 13 j ust leave it that that's what the Department wants, 14 a nd then each manufacturer has to justify -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. Because -- well, how do 16 y ou justify it? How do we say yes or no? Because 17 y ou're going to come in with an application saying, 18 " This is what we think will give you confidence in our 19 r esults." And then you can -- I mean, you can leave it 20 o pen-ended for the Department to judge, but typically 21 p eople don't like to do that. 22 MS. BARHYDT: People usually have fairly set

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 e xpectations. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, usually people don't 3 l ike to say, "We'll leave it to the Department's 4 d iscretion." 5 MR. SACHS: I know. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know what I'm talking 7 a bout, Harvey? Come on. 8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. She has 9 t hem up on the screen now. And, again, just to 10 c larify, the 17025 includes third party nationally 11 r ecognized testing laboratory. I include that as a 12 p art of 17025. So add that in to each one of those, if 13 y ou want to. 14 The second is in the manufacturer's lab 17025 15 N RTL personnel actually run -- they are actually there 16 w itnessing the test in the manufacturer's facility. 17 The third is that it is tested in the 18 m anufacturer's lab under the 17025 satellite program. 19 A nd the satellite program is where you have to become - 20

- you are investigated and you have to set up programs, 21 a nnual verification, annual rechecks of that, in order 22 t o qualify to run those tests as a satellite of the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 1 7025 facility. So their personnel don't have to be 2 t here, but you have to go through all kinds of hoops to 3 g et that -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Third party for -- 5 MR. MYERS: -- accredited lab. If it's close 6 t o 17025 as the manufacturer who is not a third party, 7 t hen it can be. 8 The next one is testing at the manufacturer's 9 l ab, DOE authorization of the lab. This is similar to 10 w hat is done -- I can only speak to water heaters and 11 b oilers for California Energy Commission. But you can 12 t est and send in your data to put on their registry, 13 y our water heater efficiency and standby loss, if you 14 h ave conducted a pretest. Send in the data. They 15 r eview it and say yes, you're an acceptable laboratory. 16 The third is what CEC does for boilers. That 17 i s, you have to make the request, but you don't have to 18 s end in any data. So you make the request, tell them 19 y ou're capable and you agree that you will not cheat, 20 a nd all of that sort of thing, in writing. But then 21 y ou can run the test. They don't require you send any 22 d ata in.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1 And then the last one, and the least 2 c onstraining, is just the testing by the manufacturer 3 u sing manufacturer personnel, and you don't check out 4 a nything. Obviously, that's the least certain to give 5 y ou good results. 6 So I tried to list those down from tightest 7 t o - - I wasn't trying to select a particular level. 8 I 'd like to see us at least go to the 17025 satellite 9 p rogram, but I suspect there will be other participants 10 w ho would want to go at least down to the DOE 11 a uthorization, much like CEC does. Or perhaps accept 12 C EC certification. 13 MS. DANE: Right. That was going to be my 14 s uggestion was if you are already following a number of 15 t hese programs, like involved in EnergyStar, and, you 16 k now, California Energy, it should be enough that we 17 h ave already leaped through all of those organizations' 18 h oops. And somebody has seen -- we still had to submit 19 d ata. Somebody knows what we're doing, the fact that we 20 a re in the back room scribbling it out and sending it 21 o n in, so -- 22 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 N ational. Just keep in mind, too, that the new version, 2 a t least for commercial refrigeration, the proposed 3 v ersion of the draft, the new version drafts of the 4 r equirements, the test procedure is whatever DOE says 5 b asically. I mean, they've culled it out, that it's -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I wrote that. 7 MR. BAUMAN: How crazy is that? We thank you 8 f or that, Ashley. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I wrote that last night. 10 MR. BAUMAN: So hopefully we'll take that off 11 t he table, and we won't have to do different -- 12 MS. DANE: Right. We don't want to run two 13 p rograms. 14 MR. BAUMAN: Probably taking -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No comment. 16 MR. TRITSIS: This is Bill Tritsis with AHRI. 17 L et me speak a little bit to what AHRI is doing, which 18 i s primarily covered in what you are writing here, with 19 t he exception of what is in your first bullet point 20 h ere, third party CB water condition to NRTL to cover 21 w hat AHRI is doing, which is also providing -- and 22 m aybe for the manufacturer to -- for us to come in and

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 a udit their laboratory, the checklist that we have. 2 And over and above that, specifically for the 3 p articular program, there is a checklist as to what -- 4 h ow the setup should be at the laboratory. That, of 5 c ourse, reflects what kind of level of confidence would 6 y ou like to have at the end of the day, receiving test 7 r eports from that laboratory. So -- 8 MR. RIVEST: Which of these bullet points -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's a new one. 10 MR. TRITSIS: Right. Well, you can have it 11 h ere, third party CB water and NRTL oversight. 12 MR. SACHS: C and P? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: CB. So CB is very different 14 t han a lab oversight in my mind. 15 MR. TRITSIS: You want it covered in the -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm saying manufacturer with 17 t he oversight -- I'll use the term even though -- 18 MR. TRITSIS: Oversight of the laboratory -- 19 MS. DANE: Michael, aren't you a CB also? 20 O kay. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: But he would fall into one of 22 t he other buckets anyway.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 MS. DANE: Right. He would fall under both, 2 a s long as we're allowed to select sites, because in my 3 m ind NRTL and CB are the same, because they all get 4 c hecked out by ILAC and stuff like that. So I don't 5 w ant to go down a path where it sounds like only the 6 V ICP would be the certified body, because that still -- 7 y ou know, that is still one more -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I actually see them as quite 9 d ifferent. I see it different only -- the reason is 10 b ecause I see one oversight being a third party lab 11 t hat is running the tests themselves as well. 12 MS. DANE: Right. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Versus someone that is -- a 14 p rogram that is not running the tests, but may have 15 e xpertise in running the tests and providing oversight. 16 MS. DANE: Does AHRI run the tests, or do 17 t hey go to a CB to run the tests for them? So it's 18 s till -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Third party lab runs it. 20 MS. DANE: So another level of -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 22 MR. TRITSIS: Actually, if you ever compare

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 i t, it's actually cheaper. It's much -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. We're not talking 3 a bout that. 4 MR. HON: I'd like to say something. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 6 MR. HON: Unfortunately, there are several 7 m entions in here about California Energy Commission. 8 C alifornia Energy Commission's only requirement to be a 9 c ertified lab under the California energy standard is 10 t hat you have run a test on that product category in 11 t he previous year and sent them the data. It doesn't 12 m ean you sent them data. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I was under the 14 i mpression that California did not have any auditing 15 r equirements or anything like that. 16 MR. HON: They have never talked about doing 17 t wo audits, but they have -- 18 (Simultaneous discussion.) 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. I mean, we have just 20 g otten questions before and that was my impression of 21 t he program. 22 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 N ational. I'll say, too, because I brought it up, I'm 2 n ot saying that their program is sufficient for what 3 D OE would want, but I'm saying that type of thing has 4 b een -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: The question is, do we have 6 t he -- I mean, of the one, two, three, four, five, six, 7 s even -- forget the top people. Of the seven listed 8 t owards the bottom there, is that the realm of 9 p ossibilities we're talking about? Is that realm the 10 r ealm of possibilities in terms of -- I'm not saying 11 t hat they all -- I mean, we can whittle down the realm 12 o f possibilities based on what our opinions are after 13 w e make sure we get the realm of possibilities. 14 MR. FLY: Draw a line. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to be drawing a 16 l ine somewhere. 17 MR. FLY: That last one was like no testing 18 a t all; right? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then we just go to our regs; 20 r ight? 21 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss. 22 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. I think this

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 c haracterizes the range of possibilities. There may be 2 o ther variations that one could have, but I do think it 3 c haracterizes the range. 4 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I 5 w ould recommend removing both of them that talks about 6 t he CEC. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, we are going to 8 d raw a line, right? But at the same time, that is a 9 p ossibility now. I mean, I get what you're saying. 10 L et's put it that way. 11 MR. SACHS: Let me just be more explicit. I 12 g rew up in Georgia, and I may have left a half-century 13 a go, but if you allow California, you have to allow 14 G eorgia, Kansas -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Harvey, your line is 16 w ell above the CEC certification. We get it. 17 MR. SACHS: I didn't say it's well above. 18 B ut with all due respect to my friends, bureaucrats in 19 C alifornia -- 20 MR. WHITWELL: Can I just -- I'd like to get 21 a clarification on the second bullet there. So it says 22 t esting and manufacture lab with 17025 personnel within

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 i ts scope. I assume that that means it is tested and 2 t he manufacturer lab using manufacturer's technicians 3 b ut witness with the 17025 personnel, right? As 4 o pposed -- it is not using the lab personnel to run the 5 t est. 6 MR. MYERS: That was -- when I put that up, 7 t hat's what I intended. When I add the word "witnessed 8 b y" -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Just for clarification, 10 b ecause I wasn't clear on which that was. 11 MR. FLY: No lab personnel is going to be 12 a ble to walk into somebody's data -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: I don't want them touching my 14 e quipment. I'm responsible for what they do, safety15 w ise. 16 MR. EISNER: So does anybody have anything 17 t hey want to add to the list? 18 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. One of 19 t he things that happens with the third party testing is 20 t hat in addition to conducting the test, they are also 21 r eviewing the data that is taken for the results. 22 So when you get to the bullet of DOE

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 a uthorization of lab, there is no feedback loop there. 2 W ould it be -- and to possibly address that, would it 3 b e possible to add to that, possibly having it for each 4 d ifferent product class or the standardized test form, 5 a nd a review option or a review by DOE of the test 6 r esults. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let me just make sure I 8 u nderstand what you're asking. You want to have the 9 a bility to test in your own lab, submit your test data 10 t o DOE, have DOE review and approve your test data, 11 b efore you can certify and before you can -- I mean, is 12 t hat where we're going here? 13 MS. DANE: No. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or subsequent, just for 15 v erification. 16 MR. KLEISS: Why are we talking about 17 v erification? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just asking. 19 (Simultaneous discussion.) 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And no witnessing. So test 21 i n their own facility, their own personnel submitting 22 d ata.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 MR. BAUMAN: That's correct. 2 (Simultaneous speaking.) 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: That seems to be what he's 4 s uggesting. 5 MR. BAUMAN: That would give DOE the 6 o pportunity to verify calibration of equipment and 7 v erify our review results. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So let's talk 9 a bout one we can all agree to take off the table. 10 L et's start there. 11 MR. BAUMAN: Start from the bottom? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the bottom one, we can all 13 a gree to take off the table. 14 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Red is bad; green is 16 g oing to be good. 17 MR. WHITWELL: How original. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. That requires multiple 19 c licks, though. 20 (Simultaneous discussion.) 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So the next one 22 a bove that would be testing at a manufacturer's lab but

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 w ith certification body oversight. So when we're 2 t alking certification -- but I'm not talking about 3 t hird party labs. This is an entity that does not do 4 t heir own testing. 5 MS. MEYERS: So my remark that they would, it 6 w ould depend upon the product class. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it would depend on what 8 y our -- what is the requirements of the certification 9 b ody to be called a certification body. There's -- 10 MS. DANE: It's already the same as an NRTL, 11 t o my understanding, unless somebody can explain -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not. It's different. 13 MR. GORMAN: Yeah. The certification body, 14 t he CB status is really not in the 17025 or NRTL. It's 15 1 7065, which is what is -- it's an ISO guide that you 16 c an get accredited by whoever credits these things to 17 b e called a CB. 18 And a CB would be a situation where you would 19 s ubmit a data from one of these permits to the CB. The 20 C B would then turn around and submit it to DOE, the 21 o verseer of the program. So it's not like -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: More like a data reviewer.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 S o, in other words, instead of -- the way I look at 2 t his is instead of testing at a manufacturer's lab, it 3 i s testing by the manufacturer's lab personnel. And 4 t ell me if I have this wrong. But instead of DOE 5 r eviewing and approving the data, a different entity 6 w ould be reviewing and approving the data. Not a test 7 l ab. 8 MR. GORMAN: Right. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's this different entity. 10 A nd then they would submit it to DOE. So it's almost 11 l ike, in DOE's regs, a third party submitter. 12 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Just a 13 c orollary, you know, I'm just going to throw this out 14 t here. Like AMCA certifies laboratories. They happen 15 t o do their own testing. I don't have any idea what 16 t esting is covered. I just know that they do that. Is 17 t hat the kind of organization you are talking about? I 18 m ean, there may not be anybody that exists today, but I 19 d on't know if you want to lock out this -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm just generally -- so 21 m aybe a better way to do this, and get rid of the term 22 " certification body," because that's not -- this is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 m anufacturer testing, manufacturer personnel, no one 2 o nsite, and then someone reviewing the data, a second 3 e ntity, a third party reviewing the data. 4 MALE SPEAKER: Crediting the lab or crediting 5 t he data? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just the data. 7 MALE SPEAKER: Just the data. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: No lab. 9 MALE SPEAKER: No lab. I don't -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the way I look at 11 t hat. 12 MALE SPEAKER: I vote no on that one. 13 MR. GORMAN: I don't know anyone that would 14 b uy an arrangement without some way to validate that 15 t he lab -- the manufacturer's lab is qualified, has 16 e quipment and personnel to perform the work. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So do we all agree we can 18 r emove that one? 19 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. 20 MR. SACHS: Mr. Halley's report -- it's not 21 i ncluded in the discussion. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to get to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 e xclusions, and something tells me that they are going 2 t o be right on that exclusions list by the time we get 3 t here. Yeah. 4 MR. SACHS: You might be right on this one, 5 A shley. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Wow, Harvey, you're 7 g enerous today. 8 MR. SACHS: It's in my DNA. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the next one is where DOE 10 r eviews stuff. So, well, I guess it's not the first -- 11 s o testing at a manufacturer's lab, I don't really see 12 t he difference between this one and the last one, by 13 t he way. If you're not required to do it, send DOE 14 d ata. 15 MR. MYERS: As you've described it, that's -- 16 a s you described the last one, that's correct. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So get rid of that 18 o ne, because we have already X'ed that one out. 19 The next one -- 20 MR. BAUMAN: Excuse me, Ashley. This is Jeff 21 B auman from National. If we get rid of that, is there 22

- - and I'm reading backwards up, is there one where

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 t est and manufacture -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yours is up there. 3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Sorry. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the next two are 5 t he same. I just translated the CEC requirements into 6 w hat DOE would do. But it's testing in a 7 m anufacturer's lab, manufacturer's personnel, submit 8 d ata to DOE for approval, but no witnessing. Ability 9 a udit, I guess, if we wanted to. 10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 11 N ational. I think the thought is to possibly leave that 12 o ne there but take out the "or accept the CEC 13 c ertification." 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll pull it out. It's the 15 o ne above it. Read the one above it and see if that 16 w orks for you. 17 MR. BAUMAN: Which? Sending the data in? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yep. 19 MR. HUNT: Hi. This is Marshall Hunt from 20 C alifornia PG&E. I'm not an expert at what CEC lab is 21 d oing, and I'm checking with them now to verify what 22 t hey do and don't do. But let's leave it struck as is,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 a nd I'll get back to you. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good. Thanks, Marshall. 3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Without any 4 a spersions at the Department of Energy, with no 5 r eservations about the legislative process in this 6 c ountry, I am uncomfortable with the data submission to 7 D OE. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am as well. 9 MR. SACHS: Then I'll change my mind. 10 No. I'm comfortable because there may be 11 i ncredible resource limitations on an administration 12 t hat is very unhelpful and -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 14 MR. SACHS: All right. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or one that's really helpful. 16 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. How 17 c an we be so concerned about DOE's staffing abilities 18 b ut not be concerned about small manufacturers -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we are equally 20 c oncerned. I just think we are looking for a workable 21 s olution. And to me, this isn't necessarily a workable 22 s olution for the Department. So help me come up with a

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 w orkable solution for the small manufacturers. 2 MR. BAUMAN: Are we including in the one we 3 s till have left on the board, as you go through with 4 t he red pencil there, Ashley, I would add, if we're 5 s till carrying that one, which I think we should, add 6 t he line below "after DOE authorization of the lab." 7 So, I mean, it seems to me if DOE came up 8 w ith some requirements that maybe when you first do 9 y our lab you have to go to a third party and, yeah, the 10 m anufacturer has to pay that, prove that competency 11 t hrough testing or, you know, that DOE could just come 12 u p with some basic standards, and then how is it going 13 t o be possible for DOE to manage something like that 14 w ith -- again, the manufacturer might have an initial 15 c ost to it, but they can make that decision whether 16 t hat's -- you know, they'd be better off going directly 17 t o a third party or going through a certification for 18 t heir lab through DOE, and then maintaining that 19 c ertification. 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. One 21 t hing to keep in mind as we are talking about 22 p ossibilities here, one thing that CEC does,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 p articularly with their water heater program where you 2 a nnually send in a set of data showing, yes, I have run 3 t his test, and I'm capable of running this test, and 4 h ere's the data. 5 When you submit information after that, once 6 y ou have your lab approved for the year, you send the 7 d ata straight in to their listing sheet, in their Excel 8 s heet that goes up online. But CEC does do annual 9 a uditing, kind of the DOE spot check kind of thing. 10 A nd if you are found to be out of compliance, then all 11 o f those documents that you signed saying, "I swear I'm 12 g oing to do it right, I know how to do it," the 13 c onsequences of that kick in. 14 And they do have a -- not a huge budget, but 15 a small budget where they do spot checks. And if you 16 d on't comply, then obviously you come under very high 17 s crutiny and there's lots of bad, very costly things 18 t hat happen if you don't. So that helps keep everyone 19 s ubmitting good data, because the consequences are 20 t here for them to do the spot check. 21 And then years ago, probably 20 years ago, a 22 c ompany that I worked with was actually subject to one

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 o f those spot checks, and we did have a defective 2 p roduct and had to go through additional testing to 3 v erify that a part had been left off by the 4 m anufacturer. 5 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 6 N ational. I'll say also that -- and maybe part of that, 7 a gain, we want to add some more detail to that is, in 8 t hat case the lab -- manufacturer's lab would have to 9 r ecertify once a year or whatever, and, you know, pay 10 f or that cost of -- to do a witness or a correlation 11 t est at a lab and send that to DOE. 12 I don't think you'll have work on DOE's part, 13 a nd it -- the manufacturer could decide whether that's 14 a suitable option. But that would give you an annual 15 a ssurance. 16 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Are 17 y ou proposing a -- like a NRTL 17025, some form of that 18 t est that would be once a year in order to certify your 19 l ab? 20 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. I'm just trying to also 21 g et at -- I mean, I know -- and I know I think a lot of 22 u s had concern not to talk down to the lab and stuff,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 b ut with the backlog they have on doing testing, and 2 t hings like that, it gives a lot of manufacturers 3 c hallenges on trying to do multiple tests every year, 4 a nd just trying to find a way where, you know, the 5 m anufacturer could possibly have the option to work 6 d irectly with DOE. But, yeah, have somebody, you know, 7 a third party to be able to -- you'd pay to run a desk 8 a nd do that correlation to try to keep that -- it's 9 v ery costly. 10 MR. MYERS: That would also be a way to keep 11 D OE's costs down. They're not having to do the same 12 l evel of verification because once a year they get a 13 1 7025 lab test report saying this company knows how to 14 r un -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We get a lot of those. 16 MR. STEPHENS: This is Phillip Stephens, HTP. 17 I 'm not so sure once a year is going to be workable for 18 t his case. I mean, the small businesses, that could be 19 q uite a challenge. 20 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. I 21 j ust want to understand what that bullet is. So it 22 w ould be - - the OEMs would do their own testing for

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 s elf- certification for the DOE, and then they would be 2 a lso doing their own verification testing without every 3 y ear - - with Jeff sending the data to the DOE that, 4 y es, they have verified they have the exact 5 c ertification rating that they did themselves also. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: When we talk about data, let 7 m e just be clear, I mean, for this one it should be 8 f ull of data sets, not a summary test report, not a 9 o ne-pager with a number on it. 10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 11 N ational. Understood. And the down side for some 12 m anufacturers is the concern about the possibility that 13 t hat could get -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 15 MR. BAUMAN: -- pulled out by somebody and 16 t hey'd want to look at it. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I mean, this is full 18 o f data, everything. 19 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. I would agree with that, 20 a nd that's, again, a balance you have to make. And 21 t hat -- when it gets costly, then you are going to 22 p otentially spread it to somebody from the outside

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 k nowing about the -- 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. If you have 3 a 17025 lab running the test, then why does DOE need to 4 r un the data? 5 MR. BAUMAN: They are only running one test 6 f or your lab certification. You have all your data for 7 e verything you've submitted, all of your tests would go 8 t o DOE. And after running the data, we'd go to DOE. 9 Y ou haven't given it to anybody else. 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I wouldn't 11 b e in favor of that. However, what California does I 12 w ould be in favor of, and that is the manufacturer has 13 t o maintain that testing for five years. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: You already have to do that. 15 MR. MYERS: And it has to be available to CEC 16 s o it can be available to DOE. Then, that detailed 17 t esting that is going in the hands of your competitors 18 c ouldn't be gotten to because it's in -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, then you'll have -- 20 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 21 N ational. I agree with that, Frank. That would make it 22 l ess -- you guys don't have to get all that data every

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 y ear. But if you ever go back and ask for it, you have 2 t o get it. I don't know how that would work with, you 3 k now, if somebody asked you if you have -- you don't 4 t ypically have it, but you have access to it, and you 5 h ave to -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that part is good. 7 W e are going to -- I mean, this is part of the option, 8 r ight? If you're going to submit the DOE data, which 9 a re -- I've done the verification testing in my own 10 l ab, with my own personnel, with the units I've chosen. 11 Y ou know, at some point, I'm also going to send you a 12 p iece of paper with a number on it. That's not going 13 t o fly, right, I mean, with the Department. 14 The Department is saying, "We want the full 15 t est data report." And if the full test data report is 16 s omething you are not willing to give, then you pick 17 a nother option where you don't have to send the full 18 t est data report to the Department. 19 MS. DANE: But in that option, don't you say 20 f rom the manufacturer lab to the third party lab test? 21 S o, okay, we've got a witness who comes in and, you 22 k now, tells us, "These two units we want you to check,"

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 w hy can't we just leave all -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's once a year. That's 3 n ot going to meet your full -- I'm going to guess 4 t hat's whenever we get to a percentage. It's not going 5 t o meet your quota. 6 MS. DANE: I know, and if they pick the 7 u nits, they come in twice a year and do one and one or 8 w hatever their selection is from the program that wants 9 t o see it, they do the third party test, they review 10 t he results. They send you a summary. They still are 11 n ot sending you all of our data so that somebody on a 12 F OIA can work -- 13 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly from AAON. You 14 k now, I think we are walking around a separate lab 15 a ccreditation test that is not a full 17025 satellite 16 p rogram. It's something less. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 18 MR. FLY: And what we're discussing right now 19 i s DOE basically providing that certification. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 21 MR. FLY: Could a 17025 independent lab do 22 t hat?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It's -- 2 MR. FLY: Something short of a full satellite 3 p rogram, so nothing about 17025, so I may be talking -- 4 b ut, you know, if it costs 25,000, or under 10,000 to 5 d o that, for the independent labs to set up something 6 t hat may be less costly. Why wouldn't they do the same 7 t hing that you would do -- review the data and make 8 s ure that it was, that way we wouldn't have to send all 9 t he data to DOE. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm less worried about a 11 p aperwork exercise I guess on the Department. But, I 12 m ean, just to get data, to look at data, yes, I can see 13 w hen something is out of tolerance. I can see when -- 14 b ut I can't really see how the test was run. I mean, 15 s ame things you guys are saying, right, about why you 16 w ant to be onsite for a test. You can't see how 17 s omething was set up, can't see if something went 18 w rong. If it passed, there is no question, right? No 19 q uestions are asked; everyone is happy. 20 But if there's not, there's, you know, some 21 t ype of issue there, I don't know. I mean, the issue 22 t o me isn't so much check -- looking at the piece of

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 p aper, at the data. It is more about, how do we answer 2

- - going back to the whole purpose of this, how do we 3 a nswer, both from your perspective and from ours, that 4 t he test was run correctly on the unit and the results 5 a re valid. 6 MS. DANE: Isn't that annual involvement of a 7 t hird party lab your guarantee? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. That's what 9 I 'm asking. Is that my guarantee? Does that give me 10 m y guarantee? Does that give you your guarantee? If I 11 w anted to test your product at a lab, any lab that I 12 w anted to, it says it has the test procedure in its 13 s cope or whatever. Maybe that's not required here; we 14 d on't really have that on the slide. 15 But does that give you -- I mean, I give you 16 a paper with the results saying something about -- does 17 t hat give you the assurance that the test was done 18 c orrectly and it's okay? 19 MS. DANE: I would have to defer to someone 20 w ho is -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I guarantee they're going to 22 s ay no. That's the answer, right? I mean, I set you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 u p. 2 MR. BAUMAN: I would say, Ashley, though that 3

- - and, again, we wouldn't select this -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 5 MR. BAUMAN: I'm just trying to get another 6 o ption for some of the people with -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, 8 m aybe -- 9 MR. BAUMAN: I would say, given all of that, 10 a nd then test data was public, that if somebody wanted 11 i t, hey, yeah, I'd be worried about, you know, maybe if 12 I 'm trying to, you know, run a small operation or 13 w hatever, and I'm trying to really keep my costs low, I 14 k now, hey, somebody else could go in and look at my 15 i nformation. 16 But that would give me, if I was concerned 17 a bout that company, another manufacturer, I could go in 18 a nd look at their test data. And I bet that would give 19 m e enough assurance that, you know, if I see something 20 i n there that's not right, then I could pick up the 21 p hone and call you guys and say, "Hey, you know, look 22 a t these people."

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So -- 2 MR. BAUMAN: I think the only concern I would 3 h ave with this would be the once a year. 4 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 5 g uess my only concern with this would be I would 6 p ropose something every third year, every other year. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's do this. You know, can 8 w e take a 15-minute break and -- 9 MR. EISNER: Take a 15-minute break and talk 10 a bout -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- come up with an idea that 12 w ould work for you to put in a bullet. That you think 13 w ould work for all of us as well. 14 MR. STEPHENS: The second part is the hard 15 p art. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. 17 (Whereupon, a brief recess taken.) 18 MR. EISNER: All right. Back to work. 19 A nything else we want to talk about taking off the 20 l ist? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Any other ideas? 22 MR. STEPHENS: I believe I have a rabbit I

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 n eed to pull out of my hat. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Yes. 3 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. My 4 f irst question is the two bullet items we're talking 5 a bout, that one and the one below it, are those the 6 s ame, or are those different items? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are the same as the sub8 b ullet. 9 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So our proposal would 10 b e that -- so we would acknowledge that DOE has the 11 a bility to audit as needed. So what I would propose 12 f or this one is that if there was an audit failure, 13 t hen we would be submitted to watch the verification 14 t esting the following year, so that would really put 15 t he onus on the manufacturer and could really literally 16 d ouble their cost of testing for the following year. 17 MS. BARHYDT: How about "If you fail an 18 a udit, you have to use a 17025 lab"? 19 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. 20 MR. EISNER: Everybody else okay with that? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: For the next year's worth or 22 f or what?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. We'd have to think about 2 t hat. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: For the next year's worth of 4 v erification? 5 MR. STEPHENS: I would say that's an 6 a cceptable compromise. 7 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. So 8 w hat is the audit that's in that particular bullet? 9 W hat is -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Fail a verification test. 11 MALE SPEAKER: But you're doing the 12 v erification test. 13 MR. STANONIK: So there's no specific, let's 14 s ay, process that's an audit. 15 MR. STEPHENS: The audit and the assessment 16 t esting might be -- obviously, if you're going with 17 b asically the self-verification testing for the smaller 18 m anufacturers, the Department is going to be much more 19 f ocused on those manufacturers to make sure they're 20 b eing honest. So naturally they would audit those at a 21 h igher -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Tim has a comment down there.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 MR. EISNER: Can we do -- move the ones at 2 t he bottom that we've crossed off to another page and 3 e nlarge the remaining ones? 4 MR. STANONIK: So you're telling me the audit 5 i s really just another verification test. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: With a witness, right? With 7 a witness? I think that's what that means. 8 MR. STANONIK: Okay. I guess -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. I don't know. 10 MR. STANONIK: I'm trying to sort it out. 11 B ut if that's the case, why don't we just say to make 12 t hat option there will be another verification test 13 c onducted by a third party. There will be at least one 14 o f those or conducted by DOE. 15 I'm looking at it, and I see "audit." That's 16 a different word than "verification," and yet what you 17 h ave just told me, this won't affect the audit. It is 18 j ust -- we are going to do one more verification. It's 19 a n advertising kind of thing. That's what it is. 20 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. I guess I have a 21 c oncern that what the audit is supposed to get at is 22 t he accuracy of the testing or the effectiveness of the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 t esting. And if what happens is just that DOE is going 2 t o do an assessment test, yeah, that tells you that 3 p roduct didn't pass, but it doesn't tell you anything 4 a bout the test procedures that you are running at your 5 l ab. 6 MR. STEPHENS: Well, what would happen is -- 7 w hat I was foreseeing with this was that if you do -- 8 i f you select this option, then the Department would be 9 d oing more assessment testing. And if you had a 10 f ailure there, then the manufacturer would be penalized 11 m ore severely, because we need some way to hold these - 12

- we need to give these manufacturers this type of 13 o ption, but we need to make sure that they understand 14 t he consequences of not living up to the standard. 15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim Amrane with AHRI. 16 F rom AHRI's standpoint, I believe that we need to have 17 s ome sort of a third party overview of all of this. So 18 f or me only the two options are acceptable; the rest 19 s hould be deleted, because then the rest it is up to 20 t he manufacturers. There is no supervision. There is 21 n othing, basically, for accepting the data from the 22 m anufacturer as something that you know at face value.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I will 2 s econd that. And I guess I would suggest that maybe 3 w hat we ought to do to move this -- help move this 4 a long is discuss these options by product category, 5 w hich is really Bob Whitwell's idea. 6 But for commercial HVAC, the majority of the 7 p roduct, I will personally not agree to anything 8 b esides options one and two. And option two would only 9 b e allowed if option one is not possible for commercial 10 H VAC product and some other product categories -- for 11 e xample, size limitations or whatever. 12 If it can't be tested, I guess my going-in 13 p osition is the first bullet is the only option, and is 14 t he primary option, unless it is a physical 15 i mpossibility, and then you accept the second bullet. 16 T hat's my going-in position, and I would rather us 17 d iscuss it by product category, so that-- 18 MR. EISNER: Does anybody disagree with the 19 i dea that we now start trying to do it by category? 20 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I strongly 21 e ndorse that because I think the culture of the 22 d ifferent product categories and the expectations

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 r eally hit the load at this point. And I might well 2 a gree with Rusty on commercial, but I'm hearing 3 c oncerns about that for some of the more limited 4 p roduction, commercial refrigeration, for example -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, let's talk about the 6 o ne that has been not the easiest. Do you think it's 7 t he easiest for this one, this discussion, commercial 8 H VAC? 9 MS. DANE: Up until now, we haven't really -- 10 MR. EISNER: It's commercial HVAC. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And this encompasses -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: This encompasses commercial 13 H VAC and -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: PTACs. 15 MR. SACHS: What about commercial water 16 h eaters? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Water source heat pumps. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 19 MR. EISNER: Okay. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we're going to try to 21 m ove commercial water heaters to -- 22 MALE SPEAKER: SBVUs.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: CRACs. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Commercial HVAC. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Air-cooled/water-cooled. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, we have some issues on 5 w ater-cooled. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we need to expand the 7 l ist, or we're still -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: And evaporative-cooled is not - 9

- none of the labs can do it. None of the nationally 10 r ecognized labs can do it. 11 MR. EISNER: Well, it shouldn't be in this 12 c ategory. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: None of the labs have budgets 14 t o -- 15 MR. EISNER: So all of those in the first 16 b ullet -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we think fundamentally the 18 r equirements should be -- I mean, in theory they should 19 b e the same. Practically speaking -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. It gets back to old 21 t est procedures. 22 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. Just a

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 q uestion. Are there any small manufacturers 2 r epresented in any of these other product categories? 3 MR. HON: Yes. 4 MR. SACHS: Mark. Yes. 5 MR. FLY: Yes. I'm going to get up and speak 6 f or people that I used to work for. 7 There are small HVAC manufacturers, typically 8 u nitary, very large mostly, that are not represented 9 h ere, that build one-offs. And I don't know that we 10 a dequately covered how we are going to address a 11 c ompletely custom sheet of paper on every unit. But I 12 d on't see where it's excluded. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: There are no exclusions yet. 14 I do expect that we will need some type of way to deal 15 w ith completely custom one-off equipment, period. 16 A cross the board, period. So I would say that 17 s houldn't -- I mean, the Department acknowledges that 18 w e are going to have to deal with it. There is going 19 t o have to be -- obviously you can't say, you know, X 20 p ercent helps you verify and -- 21 MR. FLY: I mean, that's the big issue on 22 d oing this because how do you -- you know, every unit

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 y ou build is a brand-new basic model, and it adds to 2 D OE -- 3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. Could we just up 4 t here under commercial HVAC "except one-offs," just at 5 t he top, so somebody -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 7 MR. EISNER: As I understand it, that's 8 p robably going to be on every slide. 9 MR. SACHS: It may well be, but I think in 10 t erms of third parties who aren't here reading this -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: We're going to have to deal 12 w ith them separately. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it may just be that for 14 t hose DOE has the discussion to -- talk to the 15 m anufacturer and deal with it as it needs to at that 16 p oint, because putting a requirement on them, plus 17 p utting a requirement on us -- putting a requirement on 18

- - 19 MR. FLY: A lot of that stuff will not fit in 20

- - 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Exactly. That's what I'm 22 s aying. It may not be reasonable.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 MR. FLY: If you're building equipment for 2 F ord Motor Company engine plants -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just put "one-off." 4 MR. FLY: Even though it might be 63 -- 5 (Simultaneous discussion.) 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rusty, do you want to -- 7 s orry. I wasn't speaking for you, but do you want the 8 s tep one, step two? 9 MR. THARP: Yes. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you must pass the 17025 11 l abs, which the DOE has the procedure within its scope. 12 A nd if you can't, then you can do a second one if it's 13 n ot available. 14 MR. THARP: And I would actually throw in 15 t hat it should be a lab in North America. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think I can do that. 17 MR. EISNER: Are you saying it should be a 18 l ab in North America, or do you want to restrict it to 19 t he United States? I just -- 20 MS. MEYERS: Does 17025 cover -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 22 MR. THARP: Because there are labs, ISO

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 1 7025, internationally -- and I would think if you're 2 d istributing products and selling products in the 3 U nited States, that you should have verification 4 t esting done here. 5 MR. HON: It's a legal issue as well. 6 MR. WHITWELL: I guess another way maybe that 7 w e could get around -- Bob Whitwell from Carrier. And 8 m aybe we are going to talk about this, but what is the 9 p rocess for a lab to get say qualified or to be able to 10 r un this verification testing? Because I think the 11 c oncern is that there might be a lab that has some, you 12 k now, 17025, but may not have experience running tests 13 o n certain types of equipment. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: These are the laboratory 15 r equirements. What else would need to be listed to 16 p rove that? 17 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I think 18 B ill has already talked about it. There is -- at AHRI 19 w e have a list of requirements. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: What are they? 21 MR. AMRANE: Well, maybe he can speak on 22 t hat.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: What is the list? 2 MR. TRITSIS: We will share it with you. We 3 h ave no problem. For particular products, we have a 4 l ist of setup requirements and qualifying laboratory 5 r equirements that we use to qualify laboratories. 6 T hat, of course, is 17025. 7 The other point that Bob made regarding 8 i nternational labs that are 17025, you might want to 9 c ontinue -- if a product is coming from those labs, you 10 h ave some sort of random testing here in the U.S. for 11 t hose products. 12 MR. WOSTAL: Wes Wostal with ClimateMaster. 13 C an you guys hear me? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 15 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. Thank you. I have a 16 c ouple of questions and comments. First off, with the 17 f irst bullet, is that 17025 accredited? Or, you know, 18 I noticed that we took the satellite program off, and I 19 t hink that was Rusty that suggested that. I'm not 20 c ertain, you know, why you are suggesting that. 21 But in the smaller companies, and I'm 22 s pecifically speaking of a water source, that's the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 i ndustry that we're in, but I don't think very many 2 c ompanies are going to have 17025 accredited. Most 3 e verybody is going to most likely be a satellite 4 p rogram through, you know, a body such as maybe ETLs or 5 s omething like that. And I think that is going to 6 r eally, you know, potentially put quite a burden on 7 s ome of the smaller manufacturers. 8 And the other thing I was going to say is in 9 r egards to something that was just brought up with what 10 m akes a laboratory approved, a third party laboratory 11 a pproved, the water source heat pumps section right now 12 i s going through the approval process to approve 13 a nother third party testing laboratory for AHRI annual 14 t esting. 15 And basically in the testing that we have had 16 d one -- and this other third party that we are doing 17 t he testing with, they meet all of the requirements. 18 B ut when they did the first testing on our products, 19 t hey would have failed, or they did fail. We did 20 b asically a round robin. We had the test laboratories 21 t hat everybody is using today do testing on a product, 22 a nd then it was sent to the other lab that is being --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 w e are trying to approve. And the test data came back 2 a nd the product would have failed. 3 And once we started digging into everything, 4 w e found out that it boiled down to a pressure drop 5 r eading that was not being taken correctly. So I do 6 h ave concerns about just any laboratory that carries 7 t he credentials being selected and being approved for 8 D OE to send out product and have it tested at. 9 So the other thing is I would like to have 10 t he satellite program put back on because I think most 11 s mall manufacturers -- I would go as far as to say that 12 w ithin the water source industry there may be a lot of 13 m anufacturers that their labs aren't even 17025 14 s atellite, which I think is a good thing. I think it 15 i mproves the credibility, and it gives good processes 16 f or your lab. I think it's a good thing, but I think 17 t hat should be a minimum requirement here, because 18 o therwise probably almost the entire water source 19 i ndustry is going to have to have 17025 lab personnel 20 b rought in to witness their testing, and that gets 21 e xpensive. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: No, Wes. This is Jill Hootman

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 f rom Trane. Wes, what we're saying is you would have 2 y our stuff tested through AHRI at the labs that AHRI is 3 d oing. That's what the first one says. That's what 4 t he first bullet says. 5 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: And then, only then, if you did 7 n ot have -- if you had a unit that somehow couldn't fit 8 i n that test lab for configuration reasons or whatever, 9 t hen -- only then would you have it tested at your own 10 l ab with an independent lab personnel who they have 11 a ccredited to 17025 witnessing it. 12 So you would not have to bring your lab up 13 a nd get accreditation to the satellite program. 14 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: You would not have to do that. 16 Y ou could still follow the procedures, but you didn't 17 h ave to go and spend the money to get that. 18 MR. WOSTAL: Okay. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: So actually, you know, it has 20 t aken you -- it has taken that pressure off of the 21 s mall manufacturer of not having to pay for that 22 s atellite accreditation.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 MR. WOSTAL: So this would be done through 2 t he AHRI program. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It does not have to be. 5 MR. WOSTAL: Or equivalent. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: It needs to be done through a 7 p rogram. The manufacturer could contract with 17025 8 t hird party laws themselves, period. 9 MR. THARP: And also, one thing we need to -- 10 R usty Tharp with Goodman. One thing we need to 11 r emember is the quantity of product being tested also 12 g oes into how much burden there is and -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not there yet. 14 MR. THARP: They haven't gotten there yet. 15 B ut based on -- it's not -- I guess my assumption is 16 i t's going to be significantly less than what I've got 17 t oday. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I've 19 g ot to ask, Harvey, what is this going to do to 20 i nnovation? The small companies on the technology 21 c orridor in Boston that have a great idea for something 22 t hat is really going to be a big, tremendous advantage

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 t o the country overall, they are not going to be able 2 t o get in the door. 3 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. I'm sensitive to 4 t his. I think we're doing everything possible at the 5 f ront end to reduce the barriers to invasion, 6 p articularly by greatly expanding the ability to use 7 s imulation to show the compliance with small volume 8 p roducts. 9 At some point, verification is a cost of 10 b usiness, like safety testing. I don't mean this in a 11 l ecturing sense. As much as I trust you, I'm not sure 12 e ither one of us trusts the other guy, the magic 13 s olution like I get coming over my door once a week. 14 And at some point we need to have the minimal 15 c redible deterrence defined, and we've -- and I think 16 w hat we're negotiating now is what that is. And I 17 d on't find myself convinced yet that this is -- that 18 t his, at the back end of verification, without even 19 n egotiating how many, is going to be the innovation 20 k iller. 21 MR. THARP: I'll throw in for Ashley that, if 22 t here is a significant technology difference, there is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 a lso the waiver process. Correct? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is a waiver process for 3 t he test procedure, not for -- I mean, not for testing. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Not for testing. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's a procedure used for 6 t esting. 7 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. 8 A nd, again, we've kind of lost the sequence here. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the product is being 10 d istributed in commerce for sale. I mean, this is not 11 a prototype. This is not something that is being 12 d eveloped. This is not in a laboratory. This is "I am 13 s elling this product to consumers." We are at that 14 s tage. 15 MR. STANONIK: The hindrance to innovation, 16 i f there is one, would be if the test procedure didn't 17

- - okay. You came up with some wonderful thing that 18 i mproved energy efficiency, and it wasn't captured by 19 t he test procedure. Those are a hindrance to 20 i nnovation because you don't have a means to convey to 21 w hoever that in fact you have made a more efficient 22 p roduct.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 And, A, you have to have somebody doing those 2 t ests. You can't just do it out on paper. At some 3 p oint you've got to run the test. And you have to 4 f igure out what kind of waiver you would need to 5 c apture the benefit of the innovation. 6 But we're talking about the point -- you're 7 a ll past that. You're manufacturing, you're spitting 8 o ur units or making custom units, or whatever, and 9 y ou're distributing. This is -- at this point of 10 v erification testing, those issues should have been 11 r esolved or you don't have a product. 12 MR. BALLO: To the issue of the small 13 m anufacturer -- this is Tim Ballo -- to me it seems 14 m ore valuable to have those manufacturers who face a 15 s pecial burden conducting less testing but have that 16 t esting be really good than to have them conducting a 17 l ot of their own testing that, you know, is tying up 18 t heir resources and is providing test results that I 19 d on't necessarily have the highest degree of confidence 20 i n, because it happens -- it is not meeting the same 21 s tandards as the other test. 22 So I would rather reduce the number of tests

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1 r ather than the, you know, stringency of the testing. 2 MALE SPEAKER: Do either. 3 MR. BALLO: Yes. 4 MR. STEPHENS: I have reached my end of rant, 5 a s Harvey says. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're rubbing off on people. 7 MR. STEPHENS: I think everybody understands 8 m y position, and I don't think it's worth sidetracking 9 o r derailing this process. So -- 10 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman with 11 N ational. We build some SPDUs, so I guess we have a 12 s mall dog in the fight, but I'm trying to understand 13 w hy the second thing under "Satellite Program," if you 14 r un a satellite program, it would seem to be a benefit 15 t o be able to have a witness test for -- to test SPDUs, 16 i f not the other products, because, again, there is 17 o bviously a cost to doing that, but it helps limit in 18 s ome ways to the -- you know, they're coming in, 19 t hey're picking the unit, they're doing the test. A 20 t hird party lab is coming in and overseeing the whole 21 p rocess. In addition, in fact, they have pre-certified 22 y our lab in their satellite program.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 2 I don't know if any of the products within these 3 d ifferent classes would fall into this, but I am 4 c oncerned about the one-off manufacturer that builds to 5 o rder and has a customer waiting for equipment. That 6 e quipment is selected to be tested, and now I'm going 7 t o have to tell my customer I have to ship this one-off 8 p roduct that has been selected to testing to another 9 l ab. It is going to be put in the queue, be tested, 10 a nd then you've got to wait for delivery of your 11 p roduct until they're done with that process. 12 MS. BARHYDT: It says excluding one-offs. 13 MR. KLEISS: Oh, it does? I'm sorry. 14 MS. BARHYDT: You're at the far end of the 15 t able. 16 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs. I thank DOE for 17 p utting both of the two small monitors at the same end 18 o f the room. 19 End of rant. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to do security 21 p rocedures after lunch, Harvey? 22 MS. BARHYDT: So I think DOE would want to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 m ake explicit that we could show the mean time duration 2 o f the certification testing and the witness as well. 3 MR. MYERS: Sure. 4 MR. KOJAK: How do -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: What you can't see on the phone 6 i s we're all nodding. 7 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. That will 8 r equire notification. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You will have to tell us what 10 y ou're testing, when you're testing, and where you're 11 t esting. That is going to be part of, how do I get 12 a pproval, right? 13 MS. BARHYDT: None of these labs are in sunny 14 H awaii, so you're not going to get -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: I have one in Florida, so -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else for HVAC? Are we 17 g ood? 18 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Baumann. We 19 s kipped over my -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, sorry. 21 MR. BAUMAN: -- the second item in the first 22 p art that I just pulled up. Next one down.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 MS. HOOTMAN: So why wouldn't it -- my 2 q uestion would be, why wouldn't a satellite -- I don't 3 w ant to be forced into having the satellite. 4 MR. BAUMAN: You can do what you're doing now 5 u nder 17025 and send it for them to do tests. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: But there are cases where they 7 p hysically can't fit into the rooms in the labs. 8 MR. BAUMAN: In that case, you could do 9 m anufacturer witness test. 10 MR. FLY: 17025 lab witness test. 11 MR. BAUMAN: Correct. So what I'm saying is, 12 w hy is that option only available if you can't do the 13 f irst one? 14 MR. EISNER: I think that's because people 15 s uggested you have to do the first one. 16 MR. BAUMAN: Right. I'm asking -- the 17 r everse of that is, why wouldn't you offer that for 18 o ther products to keep -- again, the experience with 19 t he labs was they are very tied up, and they are, you 20 k now, trying to help also the process. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'd rather it would be the 22 f irst --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 MR. BAUMAN: You're saying there is other 2 c onstraints besides size. It could be capacity of the 3 l ab and the scheduling and things like that. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's -- 5 MR. BAUMAN: And you have -- I'd say also 6 t hat you could be -- you would be certified in the 7 s atellite program and decide, okay, I'm going to send 8 t his for a witness test instead. You'd have to be 9 r egistered in a satellite program, one that is -- 10 n umber one means you can't be in a satellite, you can 11 f or a commercial -- 12 MR. STANONIK: I've got a corollary to that 13 q uestion, maybe as a clarification. The way that seems 14 t o read it says, "If the laboratory has the capacity, 15 y ou have to have it tested there." 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Have the capability to test 17 i t. 18 MR. STANONIK: Okay. But shouldn't the other 19 f actor be -- shouldn't a factor be the cost of 20 t ransporting the equipment? I mean, there are some 21 s ituations, maybe not as -- well, I know in other 22 p rograms, but they might have the capacity to become

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 t ruly cost prohibitive, to ship the problem all the way 2 a cross wherever. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, that's why -- kind of 4 w hat Rusty was getting at about North America. I don't 5 w ant to take my unit that is 55-foot long, 12-foot 6 t all, 14- foot wide and ship it to India for some test. 7 T hat's a significant cost. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: That's why we were trying to 10 p ut the "North America," because if it's made in North 11 A merica it needs to be tested in North America. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But if we leave it 13 o pen option -- like I can understand Rusty may always 14 c hoose to do the 17025 lab, you know, for his products. 15 B ut if we leave the option open-ended, I mean, really 16 t his is about, you know, whoever is running that 17 v erification program gets the choice. 18 And if it's the manufacturer that's running 19 t he verification program, you get the choice for your 20 p roduct. And if your preference is to always use one 21 o ver the other, you would do it. You would know the 22 c ost of shipping. You would know which lab you want to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 u se. You would know -- so I guess I don't see the harm 2 i n leaving a choice. 3 MS. DANE: I think it's the word "must." You 4 k now, to me when I read that -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. If you take that off, 6 t hen you have to test it. I mean, that is an option. 7 MS. DANE: But the satellite program may have 8 t hem coming to our facility to test. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's reflected in the 10 n umber two option. When you've tested your facility 11 w ith the 17025, people will come to you. 12 (Simultaneous discussion.) 13 MR. KOJAK: This is basically saying they're 14 g oing to use the DOE testing, same to AHRI 15 c ertification. 16 MS. DANE: Or you might want to -- I'm just 17 s aying that the -- if the language is right by the time 18 y ou get to me, then I'll -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is what the language 20 w ould be. 21 MR. KOJAK: It's just basically saying that 22 w hen -- if they're part of the AHRI program and they're

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 d oing their certification testing, they can use that 2 d ata to prove that it's DOE-verified. 3 MS. BARHYDT: What? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't understand the 5 q uestion. Let's just say an entity, let's just say a 6 m anufacturer - - I am Ashley's manufacturing facility, 7 a nd I want DOE to acknowledge my program. I want to 8 v erify -- you know, DOE to acknowledge my own 9 v erification. 10 I have two options for testing. I test in a 11 1 7025 lab for all my products that I need to have 12 v erified. We're only talking about laboratory 13 r equirements at this point. Or I test in my own lab 14 w ith my own people, but I bring in someone to watch me 15 d o the verification test 17025 accredited, period. 16 MR. KOJAK: So later you are going to come up 17 w ith some rules of how products get selected that -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So we'll talk about how 19 p roducts get selected, where from, when DOE has to be 20 n otified, what DOE has to be notified about, all that 21 k ind of stuff. This is just the laboratory 22 r equirements; where am I testing?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 MR. EISNER: I think it has to be reworded, 2 t hat you do your test, either in the first bullet or 3 t he second bullet. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. I mean, we can 5 w ordsmith the language, but, yes -- 6 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. I think we 7 n eed to go just beyond the 17025 requirements. I think 8 t here are additional requirements that must be put in 9 p lace, because 17025 doesn't tell you -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's why I can -- 11 MR. AMRANE: -- if you really can -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- is it possible for AHRI to 13 p resent those after -- 14 MR. AMRANE: We can present that tomorrow. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we not get it during 16 l unch? 17 MR. AMRANE: I don't know if we can -- 18 MR. TRITSIS: I have email, but, you know, 19 o bviously it's -- 20 MR. BAUMAN: I'll say, too, Ashley, as far as 21 t he commercial, when we get to it, what may have some 22 v alue here is also the -- all of the work EnergyStar

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 a nd EPA have done with the basis for certification 2 b odies. So their program may be similar because they 3 c all out the specific certifications and things in 4 t heir information that they provided and -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: While we're talking about 6 t his, I was under the impression that -- and, pardon 7 m e, because I'm just not as familiar with this as some 8 o ther people in the room. But for those that have the 9 a ccreditations or know a lot about 17025, do you know 10 i f 17025 requires third party? What is -- 11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. 17025 12 i s for third party labs only. You have to be -- 17025, 13 p art of its -- 14 MR. THARP: That is incorrect. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is not my understanding. 16 MR. GORMAN: John Gorman, CSA. Frank, I 17 d on't think that's correct. Typically, it is used by 18 t hird party folks who want to get accreditation from a 19 f ull member, signatory, or whatever. But an 20 i ndependent lab - - your lab and your manufacturing 21 s ite can be accredited by -- through an ILAC member to 22 b e a 17025 lab.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, the first option 2 h ere, there are supposed to also be third parties. So 3 w hat is the word that encompasses that? Is it 4 n ationally NRDLE (ph) or -- 5 MR. GORMAN: NRDLE is the designation 6 p rovided by OSHA. So, I mean, you'd better be careful 7 a bout that, NRDLE as you -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, how about third party? 9 T hird party 17025? Are we okay with that for now? 10 (Simultaneous discussion.) 11 MR. GORMAN: 17025 lab has got accreditation 12 t o test whatever procedures come up. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 14 MR. GORMAN: But I understand what 17025 15 m eans is it sets up a process, and it sets rules in 16 p lace for management and structure and all of those 17 s orts of things. You know, it doesn't automatically 18 g uarantee that a laboratory is proficient and running. 19 S o you've got to make sure you tie all of that 20 t ogether. 21 What we do, we get accreditation from the 22 f olks that accredit us at CSA, we can go out and pose

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 v ery much the same rules on laboratories that we then 2 w ill go witness test data or accept data from in one of 3 o ur many programs. 4 So for safety certification, I don't know 5 w hat you mean by "satellite" either. What does 6 " satellite" mean? That keeps kicking around. Is that 7 a n official thing, or is that just -- 8 MR. MYERS: That's one laboratory -- one 9 1 7025 laboratory's definition of their approval 10 p rocess. 11 MR. GORMAN: Okay. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 13 (Simultaneous discussion.) 14 MR. GORMAN: So what we do is we're 15 a ccredited by highlighted gold member bodies under 16 1 7025 to be in the program. We then will go to 17 m anufacturers' labs and accredit those labs using very 18 m uch the same set of rules. That allows that 19 l aboratory, which is typically affiliated with a 20 m anufacturer -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 22 MR. GORMAN: -- to submit data to us -- that

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 d ata as part of safety certification or energy, Energy 2 S tar, or whatever it might be. So that's what we do 3 a ll the time in our business. If that's what this is 4 g etting at, then -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would fall under bullet 6 t wo. 7 MR. GORMAN: You've got to be careful now. 8 Y ou have a third party. I think that makes more sense 9 t o me when you put those words in -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. That's what I was 11 t rying to distinguish. 12 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I went 13 o ut last week and looked at the standard, and I pulled 14 a couple of sentences. I think I sent them to Laura. 15 S o taking it from that and rewording it a little bit to 16 f it our purposes, how about "Manufacturer shall submit 17 a ccredited verification test results using ISO/IEC 18 1 7025 as the basis for their test program." That's not 19 e xactly what you said, but it gets to the point about 20 o nly want to use accredited labs or you want to have 21 c onfidence in the data. 22 MS. MEYERS: I would like to use proficient

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 l abs. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Newer. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. It's accredited labs, 4 b ut it's also labs that have can test -- 5 MS. MEYERS: It's accredited labs. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think this is the best 7 t hat we're going to do for now. To the extent there 8 a re additional characteristics or requirements of labs 9 t hat we can think of during lunch or whatever, or that 10 y ou guys have that you're willing to share, we can add 11 t o the list that would ensure proficiency, or help 12 e nsure that, you know, you are welcome to -- these seem 13 l ike a reasonable, good first step for lab 14 r equirements. 15 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes at ClimateMaster. I 16 j ust want to throw one thing in. I have heard a lot of 17 p eople saying "accredited." Would it make sense to say 18 1 7025 accredited lab in these bullets, or is that just 19 u nderstood? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We can add that word. 21 I think it was understood, but -- 22 MR. EISNER: Everybody all right with where

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 w e are on this? Should be start a new slide for more 2 e quipment? 3 MR. GORMAN: This is John Gorman, CSA again. 4 I would shy away from the word "accredited." A third 5 p arty such as CSA, we would probably recognize the 6 l aboratory's capability to perform tests. That's our 7 r ecognition of accredited, and it gets back into the 8 s eparate entity of what you mean. Obviously, it has to 9 b e done by a recognized lab, by a third party. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I guess that's the 11 q uestion. To be a third party 17, whatever, I mean, to 12 r eally meet that definition, aren't you being 13 a ccredited by? 14 MR. GORMAN: As an agency, I am accredited by 15 a recognized entity that does this as a living. The 16 h igh standards of my programs will then go out to a 17 l aboratory and recognize their ability to -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: See, we're not -- that's not 19 a bullet on ours. Ours is -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Only the first situation. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: The second bullet is, yes, 22 y ou can test in a lab at a manufacturer's site with the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 m anufacturer's personnel, but you have to be present. 2 Y our accreditations come with you. You have to be 3 p resent. The accreditation is not on the 4 m anufacturer's ability, though. That is the 5 d ifference. 6 MR. GORMAN: That's okay. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's a different 8 b ullet, right? That's the third bullet is the 9 s atellite witness program. 10 MR. GORMAN: I recognize that the proper 11 e quipment -- 12 (Simultaneous discussion.) 13 MR. GORMAN: The laboratory must have -- in 14 m y opinion, I recognize their ability to run the test, 15 w ith the proper calibrating for all of -- 16 (Simultaneous discussion.) 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's a valid point. 18 I just don't know if -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. That very same thing 20 h appened. You know, the lab sent us or the company 21 s ent us what had to be done before we could do that 22 t est. So we had to send them our calibrations and do

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 a ll of that kind of stuff. So, yeah, there is some 2 c hecklist of "I'll come witness it," but, you know, I'm 3 c oming to witness it to these things, these procedures. 4 MR. BAUMAN: I don't mean to talk nicely 5 a bout EPA with the DOE people in the room. 6 They call it manufacturers' recognized 7 w itness test lab or witness test lab that -- different 8 a cronyms, but my feeling was this would be -- that 9 w ould be part of this is that the lab would be the 10 s atellite or manufacturer recognized test lab, and then 11 t hey would be able to have witnessed testing. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we can make the 13 r equirement that the manufacturers' labs also have to 14 h ave some kind of recognition from a third party 17025- 15 a ccredited lab. But that doesn't absolve them from 16 h aving to have someone from the third party lab onsite. 17 I was under the impression that people did 18 n ot want to add the additional. So you do want to add 19 t he additional, you know, requirement for the 20 m anufacturers' facility. The second bullet, as I read 21 i t, doesn't have any requirements other than maybe 22 s omething to run the DOE test or whatever.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 The burden is placed on the third party, you 2 k now, lab that is witnessing the testing to say either 3 y es or no; yes, they're running the test correctly; 4 y es, they're following the procedures; or no, they're 5 n ot and notify DOE. I mean, you are going there as an 6 e xtension of DOE, basically. 7 MS. BARHYDT: So the way I would see this is 8 t hat one test lab may have certain policies of what 9 t hey want to see to be willing to sign off on the test, 10 a nd another lab may have a different set of criteria 11 f or what they want to see to sign off on the test. 12 What matters to us is that there is an 13 i ndependent third party who is accredited to 17025 and 14 i s proficient, who is willing to sign off on the test. 15 A nd it's up to them to figure out what they want their 16 s tandard to be, and it sounds like CSA isn't going to 17 d o that unless you are already a recognized lab, by 18 y ou, whereas I vaguely recall from the last meeting 19 t hat somebody was saying that they thought that their 20 c ompany would actually go out and just show up and look 21 a t all of the paperwork and be willing to sign off on 22 i t.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 So I would prefer to not put additional 2 r equirements in here and let the third party labs 3 f igure out what they want to see to be willing to stand 4 b ehind it. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Signing off on those - 6

- on that -- 7 MR. BAUMAN: But that's not on the bullets. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is. 9 MR. BAUMAN: Which one? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: The second one. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Well, third one. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Third one down, sorry. 13 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank Stanonik. And, 14 J ohn, the fact that the third party agency is 17025- 15 a ccredited, in fact doesn't that establish some minimum 16 c riteria by which they can do that second bullet? I 17 m ean -- 18 MR. BAUMAN: It absolutely does, yes. 19 MR. STANONIK: Right. Okay. Yeah. 20 MR. BAUMAN: So it goes to the lowest one. 21 T here is some consistent requirements of the 17025 that 22 j ust how the lab operates, it would address how that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 l ab would validate the witness test facility. 2 MR. KOJAK: They would set up their own 3 r equirements. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would. You all would. 5 A nd it -- 6 MR. KOJAK: You have to do these things to -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely. For you to 8 a pprove that verification with -- 9 MR. STANONIK: But they still would have to 10 m eet what you have to do to be 17025 -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So you're extending 12 y our, you know, third party expertise to that test, 13 p eriod. 14 MR. BAUMAN: Energy Star has a list of -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's very different than 16 t his. 17 MR. BAUMAN: They're a certification program. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is very different. 19 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. It 20 s eems that the essential thing in the third bullet that 21 y ou must test in manufacturer's lab -- is that it is 22 w itnessed, someone is onsite --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: An independent person. 2 MR. MYERS: -- personnel employed by the 3 t hird party lab. That is the essential element here. 4 T he one that some would like to have on there -- and 5 w hen we get the other product type this necessarily has 6 t o be on there -- is what we've been calling the 7 s atellite program where the manufacturer's lab and 8 p ersonnel have to go under review, and they are under 9 t he auspices of the 17025 lab, but a person employed by 10 t he third party lab does not have to be onsite for 11 e very test. They can be, but they are not required to 12 b e. That's the next level that is not on this list. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Read the line above 14 t hat. 15 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And what's 16 i mportant to me -- and I want to just make sure I'm 17 u nderstanding it correctly -- is that this third party 18 l ab is manufacturer-selected rather than DOE-selected. 19 S o the manufacturer is never going to be in the 20 p osition, unless he chooses to, of having to train the 21 l ab on how to test the product. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Nope. Nope. They get to --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 I assume they are going to pick whichever lab they -- 2 MR. SACHS: So we can start and race to the 3 b ottom. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can start. There's not a 5 w hole lot of options out there. 6 MR. SACHS: I'm comfortable. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What product wants to go 9 n ext? 10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So is there anything 12 d ifferent here? I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jeff. 13 MR. KLEISS: Based on the way that this is 14 w orded, I would be comfortable with adding "commercial 15 w ater heaters and water boilers" to this same 16 p rocedure. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. We were supposed to 18 a dd "furnaces" to this already; right? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. "Furnaces" should have 20 b een up on the -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Sorry. 22 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Without the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 113 1 a ddition of the third bullet where you can have what 2 I 've been calling the satellite program, where you can 3 b e authorized and reviewed, but that a third party 4 e mployee does not have to be there, I would have to add 5 t hat before I could add "water heaters and boilers." 6 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I 7 u nderstand the Department's concern that some 8 m anufacturers have been trying to get away with things. 9 I mean, after all, moving to Boston, I am very familiar 10 w ith the fact that the country was started by people 11 t hat didn't want to pay taxes. 12 But the program we are setting up here is 13 p enalizing everyone before anybody messes up, going 14 a fter the manufacturers that do try to get away with 15 s omething. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Your ask is for DOE not to 17 t est your products. 18 MR. STEPHENS: No. My request is that if we 19 m ess up, let us know and deal with us. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: How are they going to know that 21 y ou messed up? 22 MR. STANONIK: How are you going to know you

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 114 1 m essed up? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Without doing their 3 v erification testing? 4 MR. STEPHENS: Well, I'm not saying don't do 5 t he verification testing. I'm not saying that at all. 6 MR. GORMAN: John Gorman again from CSA. To 7 F rank's point, we have several programs where we 8 a ccredit what's called a satellite lab after probably 9 y ears of working with them to perform the testing 10 i ndependent of us doing the witness test. We allow 11 t hat for safety certification for a lot of products, so 12 I don't know why we wouldn't necessarily want to allow 13 t hat for industry verification as well. 14 So there are programs that we have that are 15 p ermitted through our accreditation, permitted through 16 I SO 17025, and those that accredit to that, that allow 17 t his to happen. So what it requires is that we do 18 m anual audit of that facility and go over the records 19 a nd perhaps flag them all for test and at the same time 20 r eview them. But we don't necessarily require that we 21 h ave to witness every test done by that manufacturer. 22 We don't allow everyone to do this; only the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115 1 h igh-level companies that we have worked with for years 2 a nd have confidence in their people and their equipment 3 a nd their process to be able to do that. So we do this 4 q uite often for manufacturers I think that support what 5 w e're talking about. 6 So, not saying DOE has to do that, but I'm 7 s aying we allow that in many of our programs today for 8 s ome of the -- for the safety approvals that we do do. 9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I know 10 t hat same situation exists for other laboratories in 11 t he country that run these kinds of tests. That it is 12 l imited to those that have the expertise, the depth of 13 k nowledge. 14 Having worked with them long enough to 15 u nderstand that they know all of those ins and outs, 16 t he same as the employee in the third party lab, there 17 i s confidence to put their good name, the laboratory's 18 g ood name, on the work that -- 19 MR. GORMAN: The third party takes 20 r esponsibility for all of that, so the work done by the 21 s atellite lab or the manufacturer's lab in this high 22 l evel program, you know, we are still taking

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 116 1 r esponsibility for and liability, if you want to put it 2 t o that level, for the work that they do. So it's not 3 l ike we're just saying, "Go do it, have a good time, 4 s ubmit data when you get around to it." This is very 5 c ontrolled and very high level program, and that's -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. So we have two 7 c onflicting viewpoints here. Do we have a third 8 v iewpoint? 9 I would like someone to break the -- 10 MS. MEYERS: Well, I think it's a good point. 11 I think, you know, what we have on this slide -- it 12 s eems like what we need to be focusing on are the lab 13 r equirements, the DOE verification program. It's kind 14 o f a real nuance that perhaps I think we need to -- we 15 g et it from that viewpoint. 16 So DOE requires manufacturers' products to 17 m eet certain requirements. And if a lab is running a 18 v erification program for DOE energy efficiency program, 19 t hen they need to have certain requirements. I think 20 i f we look at it from that viewpoint, we might twist 21 t hese bullets around a little bit. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Frank.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117 1 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Another 2 i ssue on this last point Frank Myers was talking about, 3 f irst of all, in that situation -- and I realize this 4 i s to be discussed -- how do you make a random 5 s election? I mean, the manufacturer is making the 6 s election. So -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's nothing on there that 8 s ays that. 9 MR. STANONIK: Pardon? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's nothing on there that 11 s ays that. 12 MR. STANONIK: I know. I know. But the 13 o ther point and the question to Frank is, is this more 14 a situation that is relatable to one-off or custom-made 15 p roducts? Because if it is, again, we are excluding 16 t hose. 17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I didn't 18 m ean to have it excluded. It does facilitate some 19 m anufacturers of one-off products to be able to run the 20 t est, but it is really a recognition that, as John 21 s aid, John Gorman said, that there are manufacturers 22 w ho have the experience and expertise that the third

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 118 1 p arty laboratory is willing to put their good name 2 a gainst that manufacturer running the test. I'd like 3 t o be able to do that. It's a substantial cost 4 s avings. 5 MR. KOJAK: Yeah. This is Mike Kojak with 6 U L. I agree with Frank, too, that that should be an 7 o ption on there because there are certain manufacturers 8 t hat are already at that level, and they are trusted 9 a nd have gone through their yearly audits, that they 10 a re capable of running those tests. And I think that 11 s hould be an option on there for manufacturers that are 12 a lready in those types of programs to be able to 13 u tilize that. 14 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. I'll 15 a gree. 16 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. But did 17 I hear that there is an annual audit? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was the -- 19 MR. STANONIK: So, in fact, that bullet could 20 b e third party personnel doesn't have to be at the 21 f acility for testing, but lab is annually -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It was. Lab was annually

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 119 1 a udited, and the full test reports go to DOE. 2 MR. STANONIK: But potentially it could say 3 t hat the lab is annually certified by a 17025 lab, and 4 a t least one test is conducted under -- with personnel 5 p resent. Is that redundant? 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I know in 7 o ur case the annual certification is open to that. On 8 o ccasion, over the years, we have actually conducted 9 t ests. Other times, they have focused in other areas 10 t hey thought were more important. So I would hate to 11 h ave that as a new requirement for what I'm calling a 12 s atellite lab. Just the annual verification of our 13 c apabilities is, I think, adequate. 14 MR. MYERS: I don't think there was general 15 a greement to the witness test. That was just something 16 t hat 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think there was 18 g eneral agreement to the fourth bullet. 19 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman, National. 20 T here is an elephant that's out there, too. Should the 21 l ab be 17065, that's -- I mean, 17025 is just 22 c ompetency to run a test. You know, 17065 is we're

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120 1 c ertifying the product. So that's a harder -- I 2 b elieve it's a harder standard to meet. 3 MR. TRITSIS: That's a very good point. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean by 5 " certifying products," though? 6 MR. BAUMAN: Basically, that they are -- 7 1 7065 - - and you guys from the labs can talk to it 8 b etter than I can -- that they -- that's the 9 r equirement that they must meet to be able to certify 10 t heir products to a standard, I believe. And they have 11 l ike -- and the manufacturer's lab can't be 065, 12 b ecause the first part of that is being completely 13 i ndependent of the manufacturer, that there is no 14 i nfluence there. 15 So if you're talking about a strict third 16 p arty, I think 17065 is a higher standard to hold to 17 t hat's applicable. I think most of the labs that are 18 a lready doing this are -- they have that level of 19 c ertification. 20 (Simultaneous discussion.) 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It might be both. I don't 22 k now. I mean, what we're trying to do is saying, what

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121 1 a re the necessary accreditations for a competent test? 2 S o running the test, reviewing the results, and saying 3 t his is accurate through -- in accordance with the test 4 p rocedure, et cetera, et cetera. 5 MS. BARHYDT: And even beyond that 6 i ndependent -- I mean, the manufacturers test in their 7 l abs all the time for their certification. The idea is 8 t hat this is a check to make sure that what they do 9 e very day is actually accurate. And so I'm having a 10 l ittle bit of difficulty seeing how, if I test in my 11 l ab all the time, how this is any different from that. 12 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 13 N ational. I think the difference there is, again, we 14 a re talking about just the third party lab would 15 o bviously have that. But the fact that the person is 16 d oing that over at certain manufacturers' labs is -- 17 h as independence and then moves over to the 17065 18 g uarantee, that the person either doing the third party 19 t ests or overseeing the witness test and having 20 c ertified that lab as part of their 17065 or -- has 21 t hat extra higher level. 22 The 17065 definitely is -- to perform

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 122 1 r equirements for certifying products, processes, and 2 s ervices, I would think that was very applicable to 3 w hat we're talking about here, and you would want that 4 l evel versus just that -- again, I think we are -- I 5 t hink -- and you guys can talk about it more is, you 6 k now, how many other people do you want to get in the 7 g ame of -- going down the street and, you know, Mike's 8 t hird party lab company coming and saying, "I have 9 c ompetency to run a test, so now I should be able to 10 c ertify somebody else's product." I don't think that's 11 t he level we would want. But I -- 12 MR. GORMAN: This is John Gorman again from 13 C SA. I tend to agree with that. I don't know if it's a 14 h igher level, but agencies, third party agencies such 15 a s mine, can go for either one of these 16 c lassifications. We can get a test lab with TL status 17 w ith 17025. Or in some of our programs we can go out 18 a nd 17065, QE status. 19 The Energy Star, for instance, a test lab I 20 d on't think can submit directly for Energy Star. They 21 h ave to submit to a CB, and then the CB then carries it 22 f orward. So --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not going for that. I 2 c an tell you that. 3 MR. GORMAN: But that's not why I want to 4 c arry it. This is -- 5 MR. BAUMAN: I don't know if it's a 6 r equirement. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not what we're going 8 f or. 9 MR. BAUMAN: Not for listing purposes. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not for the purposes of -- we 11 a re talking about verification, what are the lab 12 r equirements. And, you know, right now our third party 13 a uthorizations allow anyone to submit. I mean, that's 14 a different issue, who can submit the paperwork, but we 15 a re going for -- this is a laboratory test. And it may 16 b e that it should be -- I do think that 17025 is 17 i mportant for the lab, but it may be that it should be 18 1 7025 and 17065. I don't know. 19 MR. TRITSIS: It should be both. This is 20 B ill Tritsis. It should be both, because 17065, as 21 J ohn said, does provide -- if you are talking about 22 r equirements like the verification program, you know,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 124 1 1 7065 avoids that subject completely. 2 MR. BAUMAN: Is 17025 part of 65? I think 3 t here is -- 4 MR. TRITSIS: No, they are different. 5 MR. BAUMAN: I thought they were referencing 6 t he -- 7 MR. TRITSIS: 17025 applies specific to the 8 l aboratory configuration and verification. 17065 is 9 t he conflict, avoiding the conflict of a laboratory 10 d oing both the testing and the reporting and running 11 t he programs themselves. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I move for lunch. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Something for -- 14 MR. EISNER: Does anybody object? 15 (No response.) 16 MR. STEPHENS: Second. 17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Why don't we get back at 18 a bout five to 2:00 or 2:00. 19 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.) 20 MR. EISNER: Is that a new slide? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I don't think we were done 22 w ith this one yet.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125 1 MALE SPEAKER: We didn't finish the other 2 o ne, but you can start a new one if you want to. 3 MR. EISNER: Who wants to start? 4 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers of PVI. I 5 d efinitely don't agree with "and." If there can be an 6 " or," I would be okay with that. 7 MR. THARP: But do we understand the 8 d ifference here? I think, you know, having a 17065, 9 y ou know, for the data that you are currently using, it 10 a ssures you, it provides you better assurance. It 11 d oesn't take anything away from it. 12 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at PVI. I 13 b elieve -- someone could disabuse me of this 14 u nderstanding, but I believe one of the tenants of 15 1 7065 is that the testing laboratory cannot submit the 16 d ata directly; it has to go through a certified body. 17 A nd that's the part that I am most concerned about. 18 MR. THARP: Not true at all. 19 MR. AMRANE: Yeah, I was going to say, I read 20 a little bit during lunch, and what I read just -- and 21 b y no means is this exhaustive, but what I read was 22 t hat 17065 is more about the paperwork and certifying

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126 1 t he results and that kind of things that would 2 a pplicable more to a certification body. But it 3 d oesn't require the use of a certification body. 4 In other words, it's more of it requires 5 i mpartialness; it requires that kind of stuff, which I 6 t hink the impartial part is really important here. I 7 d on't think it should be in lieu of 17025 in terms of 8 t esting competence. But if 17065 does require 9 c ertification, I agree with you; that's not the path 10 w e're taking here. That's not on the table for 11 d iscussion, at least at this point. 12 MR. MYERS: It's my understanding that's the 13 c ase. In between these meetings, I'll go home and read 14

- - 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anybody know? 16 MR. MYERS: -- 17065 in detail. And by the 17 w ay, is that a standard today? I thought Guide 65 18 t oday. Is 17065 already -- has that already been 19 a pproved? 20 MR. GORMAN: Excuse me, John Gorman again. 21 I t's been approved, but my understanding is it's not 22 e ffective. It won't be effective in my agency until, I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 127 1 t hink, the middle of next year. That's my 2 u nderstanding how CSA is treating the enforcement of 3 1 7065. 4 MR. AMRANE: This is an ISO document 5 a pproved, an approved ISO document. How the auditors, 6 y our auditors at CSA, UL, Intertek, or HRI are 7 i mplementing the transition from ISO 65 to ISO 17065 is 8 u p to, you know, what you can -- 9 MR. EISNER: What are you saying? Is it 10 p ossible; would everybody agree to adopt 17065 as an 11 a nd if the provision was except for the requirement at 12 s ubmission? 13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at PVI. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're not doing that. 15 MR. MYERS: I would suggest strongly that the 16 f olks don't pass it so you can read it. 17 MS. DANE: Right. 18 MR. MYERS: Read it before we pass it and 19 m ake sure that that's what we want. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, there might be aspects 21 o f 65 that we could just pick up, instead of doing it 22 a ll together. I don't think it replaces 17025. At

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 128 1 l east, I think we're more focused on the testing 2 c ompetency rather than the paperwork at this point. 3 B ut there might be aspects of it that would add value 4 t o this list. I don't know. 5 MR. MYERS: Sure. 6 MR. EISNER: Again, all -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 8 MR. EISNER: Exclude all. 9 MR. MYERS: So I would be in agreement to 10 l ooking at the balance of this holding that particular 11 p art at bay until we've had a chance to look at it and 12 s ee whether it should be adopted in whole or in part. 13 MR. EISNER: Is that something we could get 14 b ack to tomorrow, or is it going to take more time 15 t hen? 16 MR. MYERS: I don't know if there's enough 17 t ime. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll put it the next meeting, 19 t he next group of meetings. 20 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this slide? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, do you want to -- 22 MR. MYERS: Yeah, there --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 129 1 MS. BARHYDT: This is HBC. 2 MR. MYERS: Oh, we're back to HBC, okay. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so water heaters. 4 MR. EISNER: So everybody agrees with 5 a ccommodations HVAC? 6 MS. BARHYDT: Well, there are two points 7 t here, yeah. 8 MR. EISNER: Except those points, okay. 9 MALE SPEAKER: Are we going to vote on this 10 o r what? 11 MR. EISNER: Well, I don't think we can vote, 12 b ecause there are too many variables right now. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I was going to say also 14

- - so Bill sent me AHRI's checklist for facilities. 15 A nd at some point, I want to get that on the slide for 16 s ome discussion. So give me a little bit. 17 So maybe we can talk about water heaters 18 w hile I figure out how to load it. And we'll go from 19 t here. 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. One other 21 p oint on the water heater verification slide: depending 22 o n what comes out with 17065, 17025 does not require a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 130 1 w itness test, per se, certainly not an annual witness 2 t ests. It does require that you exhibit competence. 3 I n our case, we did in fact run witness test, but that 4 w as a one-time thing that they may do. In fact, we've 5 d one it since then, but not every year. That may or 6 m ay not be required if we bring in elements of 17065 7 m ay be covered by that. 8 MR. EISNER: Any questions, other thoughts? 9 Is everybody -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: I guess I'm still not clear on 11 w hat the fourth bullet point provides in terms of 12 a dditional verification, beyond what that same 13 m anufacturer would be doing for certification testing. 14 T o me, that looks like a manufacturer who's doing in15 h ouse testing and has those accreditations and is doing 16 t heir own certification testing. There's no difference 17 w hen they do a verification test. I mean, we may have 18 c ontrols on selection or something like that. But to 19 m e, it looks like the testing is exactly the same. 20 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers at PVI. If I 21 c ould explain the difference. The principal difference 22 i s that testing is under the auspices of the third

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 131 1 p arty laboratory. They have verified our ability to 2 r un the test, and they're able to come in at any time 3 i f they choose to. They can question our data. They 4 r eview our ability to run that test. So it's not like 5 a ny other manufacturer would do if you're not in that 6 p rogram. 7 MS. BARHYDT: No. I'm saying that if you do 8 y our own testing for certification and you do your own 9 t esting for verification, what's the difference? 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI again. 11 I might have a different group of people running the 12 t est for the initial certification. I'm limited under 13 t his program to people -- to the specific names have to 14 b e included as to who has the experience to be able to 15 r un the test to satisfy our third party's approval. So 16 t his is a much tighter tolerance on our capabilities. 17 O nly certain people can run this test that have been 18 a pproved by the third party. They're not just 19 a pproving; in our case, PVI, they're approving four 20 p eople at PVI to be able to run this test. And those 21 p eople, and there's a training program and that sort of 22 t hing, where if they don't run a test within a certain

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132 1 p eriod of time they have to be retrained. So it is a 2 m uch higher level form to have this accreditation. 3 MR. GORMAN: John Gorman again. I think for 4 o ur purposes at our agency at CSA, the safety 5 c ertification is really on a prototype model prior to 6 p roduction. This energy verification program typically 7

- - I would think we at the agency would want to have 8 s omeone go in there and hand pick out at some point in 9 t ime that one in your production line we want you to 10 t est that. So it's a difference between taking a 11 p rototype model to a safety test and a production 12 m odel, if there is one in your case. Everything's kind 13 o f unique. You don't have them like sitting around in 14 s torage. But the idea that they would take just a 15 n ormal production type model out and run the energy 16 v erification test. So we identify the serial number, 17 t he date of production and all that stuff in that 18 p rogram where the safety certification is really a 19 p rototype based on what they've built up prior to going 20 i nto production. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Would you physically go and 22 p ick the one out from the manufacturer, or would you

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 133 1 j ust tell them you want this model and let them do it? 2 MR. GORMAN: I guess some of that might be up 3 t o what DOE and perhaps folks in this room want to have 4 d one. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that. But I'm just 6 t rying to understand; I mean, if that is -- 7 MS. DANE: We need a letter, because we want 8 t o see the testing data from these units. And then 9 t hey come and witness the testing. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you would fall in the 11 b ucket, too, because they would be there to witness the 12 t est. 13 MR. HON: This is Charlie Hon. I have one 14 q uestion about that. The one thing I do not see in 15 t here that makes it different from the bullet above it 16 i s the fact that the third party verifier doesn't seem 17 t o be involved. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, it's not on site. 19 MR. HON: You're using the third party 20 v erifier as a witness to say the competence of the lab. 21 T here's no third party of the materials. Am I reading 22 t his correctly?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 134 1 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 2 MR. MYERS: Except on an annual basis, they 3 c ome in and do those things, including they can 4 r equest, and sometimes do an actual test to be able to 5 c onfirm that you're able to run the -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, you have (inaudible). 7 MR. MYERS: This program actually requires 8 t he manufacturer to go so deep as to when you send your 9 e quipment off for calibration, you have to request a 10 p re- calibration sheet to show what was the calibration 11 a s received. And if the as-received calibration was 12 n ot within the tolerance of the instrument, then we 13 h ave a written procedure we have to follow to go back 14 a nd look at every test that that piece of equipment was 15 u sed on, and then determine does that change the test. 16 A nd if it changes the test, we have to go back to our 17 t hird party body, tell them what's happened, and work 18 o ut a plan mutually with them to address whatever's in 19 t he field. So this is not just, "Oh, well, go run some 20 t ests." This is a very comprehensive approval that the 21 l aboratories provide. Because it's putting their good 22 n ame on this, so they want to make sure that it's a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135 1 v ery tight and competent program. 2 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And Frank, I'm 3 v ery impressed. What I'm not so sure of is to what 4 e xtent this deep quality assurance program you're doing 5 i s kind of how you go to market, and how much we should 6 b e requiring that same level of everybody. I'm 7 l ooking, I guess, what's the least we can do to make 8 s ure we don't have systematic cheating? 9 MR. MYERS: Harvey, what this is is to 10 s ubstitute for the person being there, the third party 11 p erson being there. 12 MR. SACHS: Okay. 13 MR. MYERS: So we're having to do more in 14 t hat regard. 15 MR. SACHS: Okay. 16 MR. MYERS: Because we don't have the actual 17 e yes on of a witness person employed by the company. 18 MR. SACHS: So that's why, and you're 19 c omfortable with both. 20 MR. MYERS: Yes. 21 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 22 MR. TRISTSIS: This is Bill Tristsis with

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 136 1 A HRI. 2 On the last point by Frank here, we think 3 t his is the most significant flaw of this bullet here: 4 n ot having a person overseeing the test each and every 5 t ime. There are, in terms of stringency -- you know, I 6 c an tell you what we do, which is way above more 7 s tringent monetary penalties and such. But this is not 8 t he point. The point here is that this fourth bullet 9 h as the inherent flaw of not having anybody present. 10 MR. MYERS: Certainly it is -- this is Frank 11 M yers again. That is a different point. But one 12 r eason that this is very important to manufacturers of 13 e quipment that is built to order, even if we were a 14 h igh volume build, to order our type of equipment is so 15 e xpensive that if we have to build it and ship it to 16 s omebody, or build it and wait for someone to come 17 d own, our customers are not happy. And the only way we 18 c an afford to build this equipment is to sell it. And 19 t hen we'll put in a day or two for the testing. The 20 o nly people that can be there on that short of notice 21 i s us. Because we now have a part, you know, maybe air 22 s hipping a part in from Europe. And the day it's done,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 137 1 t hen it goes into the lab for testing. We can't wait 2 f or a third party to come in. So it's vital for us. 3 A nd we can't build that equipment, it's just simply too 4 e xpensive. 5 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 6 MR. THARP: But we're talking about -- we're 7 e xcluding one one-offs right now, right. Can we limit 8 t he conversation to more production volume stuff? 9 MR. AMRANE: I mean, Frank, for one, I think 10 t hat's going to be -- this is Karim Amrane with AHRI. 11 T hat's going to be addressed I guess separately. I 12 t hink we have that on the agenda. But as far as the 13 b uilt to order, I mean, it's happening today with other 14 p roducts, too. I mean, those who make those very large 15 H VAC products, this is the same thing. I mean, it's 16 b uilt to order, too, but it's going through some 17 t esting as well. So I think if it's a one-off issue, I 18 t hink that we'll address that eventually. But we're 19 o nly talking about the one-off right now. 20 MR. MYERS: Well, I'm actually talking about 21 b uilt-to-order. Our company builds to order. 22 MR. AMRANE: Other people are in the same

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 138 1 s ituation. 2 MR. MYERS: I don't think anybody is the 3 e xact situation that we are. Because we have to 4 f abricate an incredibly expensive pressure vessel. 5 O ther people can throw some iron together and put some 6 p arts on and send it off. Our customers -- I don't 7 k now about other people's customers, but our customers 8 n eed that equipment; they want it quicker than we can 9 d eliver it. And to add in extra time would be a 10 t remendous financial burden for us. And we can't sell 11 t he equipment somewhere else if we just -- 12 MR. WOSTAL: This is Wes Wostal with 13 C limateMaster. We have a similar situation in that we 14 a re also a satellite program and we are approved by 15 1 7025 accredited lab. I'm just curious what exactly is 16 t he difference between the commercial HVAC versus 17 c ommercial water heater that we would say for 18 c ommercial HVAC this is not allowed, but in water 19 h eating, it is allowed. Because this would be something 20 t hat, you know, I would probably as a manufacturer use 21 A HRI, but this would just be an additional option that 22 c ould be used.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139 1 MR. HON: I have a question of that. 2 L aboratories, the 17025 labs, would you allow your 3 1 7025 listing to carry over without your input into the 4 m aterials? Because you're accrediting our laboratories 5 a nd then we're using without seeing the data. Is that 6 a cceptable to you? 7 MR. KOJAK: Yeah, I don't understand the 8 q uestion. 9 MR. HON: Okay, if this were done, we could 10 t est a product because we are a satellite lab. You 11 w ould not know that product was tested; you have no 12 i nput to that test information; you would not see that 13 t est information likewise. You wouldn't have charges 14 f or that service. Is that the way you're running your 15 s ystem? Or do you want to verify your system so that 16 y ou have third party review of data? 17 MR. KOJAK: I'm not sure how our company 18 w ould want to handle this. I mean, this is something 19 n ew, so I mean, I can't tell you right now exactly how 20 i t'd be structured. 21 MR. HON: That's why I'm asking that, because 22

- -

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140 1 MR. KOJAK: I would assume that our company 2 w ould want to look at the data and verify everything is 3 c orrect. Because just because you did it, we'd 4 p robably still want to verify it's done right. 5 MR. HON: Well, for us, that's not a problem, 6 b ecause we don't have to have every unit witness 7 t ested. They could come down on some units, others they 8 r eview the data separately (inaudible). But this one 9 l ooks like there's a difference in the system. 10 MR. KOJAK: Well, it's, you know, they keep 11 t alking about the satellite. 12 MR. HON: We're creating a possible system, 13 b ut we're not having anyone say they're willing to do 14 t his system. 15 MR. KOJAK: Well, with the program we have is 16 t he client test data program. The data from these labs 17 t hat we have accredited to be able to do those tests, 18 t he data is submitted to us. Instead of us being there 19 w atching them collect the data, the data is still 20 s ubmitted to us to review before we do anything with 21 i t. So it's the difference is just -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: (Inaudible) test?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141 1 MR. KOJAK: Yeah. Instead of just us being 2 t here watching you guys collect the data, you're 3 c ollecting the data, but we still see the data either 4 w ay. It's just the difference is either we're there 5 w itnessing it, that's a witness test data program, or 6 t he client test data program, which you keep saying is 7 t he satellite. And we trust you're able to collect the 8 d ata properly, because of all these other requirements 9 w e give on you in the audit. But we still see the 10 d ata. 11 MR. HON: Right. But that's not what this 12 p rogram is. 13 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. Then 14 w e need to add that into this program. Because I've 15 a lways expected when we're a client that has approval, 16 t hat's what I was saying, have been saying for quite a 17 w hile. We can't get 17025 directly, we get it through 18 t he laboratory. The same thing for the data, we're not 19 s ubmitting data to DOE, we would be submitting data to 20 o ur third party 17025 lab. And that report that they 21 c reate, now, we may put it in the mail and send it 22 s traight to --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142 1 MR. HON: But that's not what we asked 2 e arlier. Because earlier, we said they would not see 3 i t. And that was part of the explanation I was asking 4 a bout. 5 MR. MYERS: The same product. 6 MR. HON: Not the product. There's two 7 d ifferent programs you can get where they don't see the 8 p roduct. But what was spelled out originally on the 9 s lide was that because they were able to obtain 17025 10 s tatus as a satellite facility, therefore they could 11 s end in data to DOE directly by themselves. 12 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers again. That 13 w asn't my intent when I proposed this. This would be 14 c ompletely the responsibility of the 17025 lab. But 15 w e'd be able to do this client data or satellite 16 d epending on what each call it. 17 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. So 18 w ith this process we could only use something, use a 19 c ertified lab that has this product within the scope of 20 t heir certification, combined appliances. There's no - 21

- 22 MS. BARHYDT: I was wondering about that.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 143 1 MR. STEPHENS: -- agency that has anything 2 f or combined appliances in their skill test. 3 MR. STANONIK: There's no official test 4 p rocedure. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. You can get a waiver for 6 t he test procedure. 7 MR. STANONIK: No, you can't; not for 8 c ombined appliances. 9 MR. STEPHENS: New product category, right. 10 MR. STANONIK: No. 11 MR. STEPHENS: We're requiring ourselves. 12 MR. STANONIK: No, you need to write -- if 13 t he industry -- Frank's (inaudible). If it needs a 14 t est procedure, then you need to write a test 15 p rocedure. 16 MR. EISNER: Mike on the phone, go ahead. 17 MR. STEM: Yeah, I was going to go ahead and 18 t ry to answer Charlie's question. It cut in and out, 19 s o I'm not sure if I got all of it. But basically, you 20 w ere asking about the requirement of what we would 21 r equire for the types of testing, whether they be 22 w itnessed or non- witnessed. And basically, to the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144 1 e ffect what we discussed last week on the different 2 l evels, I think each of the independent labs have a 3 s imilar program where we have different levels that are 4 o btained through a confidence building period. 5 Obviously, the least intensive program would 6 b e we show up with our instrumentation that's 7 c alibrated, it's in our scope of accreditations, and 8 p erform the testing ourselves on your equipment at your 9 f acility. Commonly used for compliance and conformity 10 a ssessment type testing. Second level would be a 11 w itness testing with your equipment, which is what Joe 12 a nd I spoke about last week, which is probably more in 13 l ine with what we're talking about here. Because we 14 d on't need to bring in no transducers and (inaudible), 15 y ou have that. As long as it's calibrated, that's 16 a cceptable. 17 Level three would be more in line with a non18 s upervised test. So you obtain that after-confidence 19 b uilding and some proficiency testing through 20 c orrelation where we show adequate results between the 21 t wo labs. And then the final step would be 22 u nsupervised testing with your data being reviewed by

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145 1 y our internal reviewers that we have qualified. And 2 t hen we have a final sign off from our qualified 3 r eviewer. But it's less data that we would actually go 4 t hrough. 5 So we're talking about that third level, I 6 t hink that's kind of where last week we talked about 7 d rawing the line. We would need full test data 8 p ackages that had all of the supplementary data, the 9 p hotographs of the setup, calibration information, 10 e verything included on that, a full compliance report, 11 b asically. So that would be the only way that we would 12 b e able to accept data, is if we could have enough 13 s ubmitted to us to ensure that it was ran properly, the 14 p rocedures were followed from setup procedure to 15 t esting timelines and all the tolerances were 16 m aintained. 17 So is that pretty much the gist of your 18 q uestion, Charlie? 19 MR. HON: That is exactly what I was asking. 20 B ut there was also the caveat of would the third party 21 a ccept without seeing, would they allow their 22 i nformation, as far as certification of a lab, to be

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146 1 c arried over in the review product information? 2 MR. STEM: And keep in mind that these 3 s atellite programs were developed mainly with 4 c onformity assessment in mind. So the testing for 5 t hat, you know, you're looking at the safety type 6 t esting for the electrical inputs and lock rotors and 7 t hings like that. So there's a little less to it. A 8 w hole lot less instrumentation, bigger tolerances. So 9 y ou have five degree windows that you can maintain 10 t emperatures in, instead of tents. 11 So, you know, that's not what -- when we talk 12 a bout the current structure of satellite, that's what 13 i t was developed around. If we needed to develop -- 14 a nd I don't want to speak for anybody else, you know, 15 A RHI or anybody about -- but I think, you know, we have 16 t hat opportunity to develop the procedures that fit, 17 f it. Right, I mean, we've worked well together in the 18 p ast to customize those types of programs. 19 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff Bauman from 20 N ational. Mike, can you just clarify? The way I was 21 u nderstanding, even under all I'll say (inaudible) the 22 l ab or the third party would still review, at least at

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 147 1 m inimum review the data. That goes back to Charlie's 2 q uestion. You wouldn't submit it without ever having 3 t o look at it. Even under your fourth scenario, I 4 b elieve you said that you still get the data and review 5 i t for approval before it would go to anybody. 6 MR. STEM: Yeah, absolutely. I don't see any 7 w ay around that. 8 MR. BAUMAN: I agree. 9 MR. STEM: I expect everyone to take the 10 r esponsibility. For the integrity of that data, we 11 w ould definitely want somebody in our organization to 12 s ign off on that report and have that level of 13 r esponsibility. 14 MR. BAUMAN: So you're almost saying -- 15 MR. STEM: And also -- go ahead. 16 MR. BAUMAN: You're almost saying without 17 s aying, as we talked about before, I think pretty much 18 u nder -- the fellows here from UL and CSA can talk to 19 i t. I mean, the satellite programs, you wouldn't -- 20 l ike as I mentioned earlier, you wouldn't have a 21 s atellite program that doesn't have you review the data 22 b efore it goes in. So whether we call that, whether

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 148 1 t hat's implicit in the fact you're in the satellite 2 p rogram, or when they call that out specifically in 3 t his area where the data would be reviewed by the third 4 p arty before submittal. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm still very -- 6 MR. STEM: Yeah. 7 MS. BARHYDT: What was that, Mike? 8 MR. STEM: Oh, I was just agreeing. And I 9 t hink somebody else had one other question with regards 10 t o umbrellaing standards into the accreditation scope. 11 S o the way it works currently is the specific third 12 p arty scope has to encompass those standards. We can't 13

- - we wouldn't be able to umbrella a lab into, you 14 k now, I couldn't go out and witness a test, or have 15 s omebody submit data to me if I wasn't competent in 16 t hat specific test standard. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm still extremely 18 u ncomfortable with that bullet point. But we also had 19 s ome discussion about 17065, and maybe some of that 20 p ulling in some independence. And that might make me 21 f eel a little bit better about it. So I suggest that 22 w e leave it there for now. I'm not going to vote right

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 149 1 n ow. And give us a chance to look at it and see if we 2 c an come up something that would make us a little more 3 c omfortable with it. But right now, I'm still just not 4 c omfortable. 5 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss. Related to that 6 b ullet point with the satellite program, a question to 7 o ther manufacturers. Is that needed only for one-offs 8 a nd built-to-order? 9 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, before you answer 10 t hat. What's the difference between one-off and built11 t o-order? Just to make sure we're all talking about the 12 s ame thing. 13 MR. KLEISS: I break those two out, just 14 b ecause it seems like we -- with the exclusion of a 15 o ne-off that Frank has been referring to as built-to16 o rder, so maybe that definition needs to be made clear 17 t oo. 18 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I don't 19 d isagree with you at all. If we're going to use that 20 a s a part of our discussion, we don't need to talk 21 a bout this, or that'll be done later. For our company, 22 t here's not a lot of difference between one-off and

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 150 1 b uilt-to- order. Every product that we get an order 2 f or is a unique product. To try and call it a one-off 3 i s -- okay, well, it's a one-off, unless we get an 4 o rder for another one. How complex that product is, it 5 w ould be almost impossible to say this complex built6 t o-order is what you would call a one-off. Because for 7 u s, it's all like that. So I don't find a lot of 8 d ifference between the two. But as I've heard it used 9 a round the table, I'm pretty sure some people think 10 t here's a lot of difference between built-to-order and 11 o ne-off. 12 MR. WHITWELL: So this is Bob Whitwell from 13 C arrier. Maybe I could throw something out as a 14 p ossible difference. We have, I would say, three 15 d ifferent types of products. We have built-to-stock, 16 w e have built-to- order, we have engineered-to-order. 17 S o a built-to-order product would be one that a 18 c ustomer could go into our selling tools and they could 19 c onfigure that product. We might build one a year; we 20 m ight not build any a year. We might build three or 21 f our; it depends on what the orders, how the orders 22 c ome in. So that would be a built-to-order, and it's

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151 1 b uilt only when we get an order for that product from 2 t he customer. 3 Then the third type, engineered-to-order, is 4 s omething that's not in our selling tools. It's 5 s omething where a customer asks for something 6 d ifferent. It could be just taking an option that's 7 a vailable on a different model line and putting into a 8 d ifferent product. Or it could be coming up with 9 s omething that's completely different that we have to 10 d o a significant amount of engineering work to develop. 11 S o that's the way we would look at it. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. This is Jill from Trane. 13 I would totally agree on the engineer to order. It is 14 t hen quoted to them engineering time, design time. The 15 c ustomer pays for all of that. Yeah, appropriate 16 t esting if it has to. And I would agree with Bob, it 17 c ould be as simple as putting special lights inside of 18 a unit. But also could be as special as -- 19 MR. WHITWELL: And they have unique model 20 n umbers that don't match our normal model numbering 21 s ystems. But we do track -- we keep track of what the 22 b uilding material is for that particular product by

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 152 1 c ustomer. But it's very different than a built-to2 o rder. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah, the built-to-order has 4 t he common selling tools, the common catalogs, the 5 c ommon information that is public and out. And you're 6 r ight; there's millions of combinations in there, so 7 s ome of them don't get settled every year, you know, 8 a ll the time, and some do a lot. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: It just depends on the 11 c ombinations. 12 MR. WHITWELL: A lot of them don't get sold. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. A whole heck of a lot of 14 t hem don't get sold. 15 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. And I would 16 a gree with my colleagues here that, you know, I think 17 t he engineer to order is much clearer definition of a 18 o ne-off than what we've been throwing around. And the 19 b uilt-to- order is pre-engineered. We have gone 20 t hrough product development, we have gone through 21 p rototype testing. We may not have put this widget 22 w ith that widget in the same box. But we have gone to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153 1 t he point where we know that we can put this widget and 2 t hat widget in one box. And if they don't affect each 3 o ther through some testing, then it hasn't been tested. 4 B ut it may be completely unrelated, so it doesn't need 5 t o be. So the one-off definition, I think that would 6 b e a much better definition to put in the document. 7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I know for 8 o ur company that lines is nowhere near as tightly 9 d efined as what you folks have mentioned. We have 10 p roducts that are in our catalog that we have to 11 c omplete. You may be able to order it, you contact our 12 f acility and say, "I want catalog number so and so," 13 a nd they'll contact engineering and say, "Engineering, 14 w e've got a customer asking for so and so." And then 15 w e'll do the necessary engineering to say, "Yes, you 16 c an actually sell that catalog product." So we have 17 o ther products who are in the catalogs, and if you just 18 w ant to move a fitting from one location to another, it 19 d oesn't affect anything on performance. That goes 20 t hrough our custom engineering crews and there's no 21 n eed for it to be considered anymore a one-off than 22 a nything else.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 154 1 So the line is very blurred for us. The big 2 t hing is whether it's a one-off for us, whether it's a 3 o ne-off or a built-to-order product, putting one of 4 t hose things out for testing at a different point than 5 a nother, we still -- they come through, we have delays 6 o n them; we don't necessarily have all the parts in. 7 Y ou order just for that unit, and then if something 8 h appens, you're delayed, so you can't preschedule 9 t esting. You can't schedule testing until you're done 10 w ith the unit. And usually, you've got to ship that 11 u nit because of a customer demand closing in the 12 b uilding with cranes kind of thing. So we have this 13 l ittle tiny window that we can expand that last little 14 b it out after we've got it built, whether it's built15 t o-order or engineer to order; that tiny window is 16 e xactly the same. And that's the part where we can't 17 f it in having a third party lab physically come down 18 a nd do it. We need this to be able to test those 19 u nits. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: And I would agree with you on 21 t he manufacturing part of it. On both built-to-order 22 a nd engineered-to-order, most material is not bought

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 155 1 u ntil that order is placed. So there aren't 2 c ompressors sitting around, and there's none of that 3 c omponents. All those components are ordered once that 4 u nit is put into the sales system. So you're right; 5 t he components aren't sitting around. But guess what; 6 f or AHRI, I build up a unit, send it to them, test it, 7 a nd scrap it. And, yes, it is in the six figures. 8 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. I 9 k now from a small manufacturer's point of view, those 10 c osts would be a ticket to not being in production. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: It's not easy being a big 12 m anufacturer. 13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim Ballo. Rather than 14 l eaving it up to the manufacturer of individual 15 d efinition of what's built-to-order, I think we need 16 s ome objective criteria. So what I was thinking was if 17 y ou didn't build it in the last year, it's built-to18 o rder. You get -- at the beginning of the year, you get 19 y our list of products you need to certify. And if you 20 d on't build it in that year, it's a built-to-order 21 p roduct; the next time you build it, you test it. I 22 m ean, does that --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 156 1 MS. BARHYDT: I think I would have defined it 2 a s if it's in your catalog, it's built-to-order, and if 3 i t's not in your catalog and they have to make 4 s omething up from scratch, it's engineered-to-order. 5 MR. JOHNSON: I would agree with that. 6 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff with Lochinvar. 7 A nd maybe I'm overreaching, but I think that most of 8 t he people at the table are comfortable with built-to9 o rder and engineered-to-order as being fairly good, 10 d escriptive terms. If that's so, I'd like to suggest 11 t hat we -- on the other side that we were working on, 12 t hat we add the exclusion for built-to-order and 13 e ngineered-to-order. Remove the bullet with the 14 s atellite and see if that passes muster. 15 MS. BARHYDT: And then come and revisit 16 b uilt- to-order and engineered-to-order? 17 MR. KLEISS: Yes. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Well -- 19 MR. KLEISS: And I would suggest that's 20 p robably true for both the whole HVAC group, as well as 21 ( inaudible). 22 MS. MEYERS: This Karen Myers with Rheem.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 157 1 A nd there's also built-to-stock. And you kind of have 2 t o treat built-to-stock a little bit differently than 3 b uilt- to-order as well. Because that's often very 4 u nique components, quantities of one a year, et cetera. 5 S o I think, you know, built-to-stock easy to do. 6 B uilt-to- order is a little bit different, engineered7 t o-order is even more different. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, so just make sure we're 9 a ll on the same page. What we're talking about on the 10 s lides that we've done are built-to-stock, which is -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or in stock. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Or in stock. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 14 MS. BARHYDT: And we're going to table built15 t o- order and engineered-to-order and talk about those 16 s eparately. Does that work? 17 MR. AMRANE: What Jeff was suggesting in the 18 r oom here. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Yeah. 20 MR. MYERS: If you're going to remove that 21 f rom this one, I'd sure like to get it somewhere where 22 I can get a copy of what we've worked on thus far.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just do a red line. Just do 2 i t right there, that way it's saved. 3 MS. BARHYDT: No. But we're not using one4 o ff anymore. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So where it says testing the 6 m anufacturer (inaudible) right there? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Strike through that whole 8 b ullet. 9 MR. MYERS: Yeah, if we could strike it out 10 o r something rather than delete it. 11 MS. BARHYDT: And then go to the commercial 12 H VAC slide. And change that to instead of excluding 13 o ne-offs, excluding built-to-order and engineered-to14 o rder. 15 MR. WHITWELL: I would suggest, and I'd like 16 o thers to speak up, but in this case, I think this is 17 e xcluding engineered-to-order, but includes built-to18 o rder. 19 MS. BARHYDT: It includes built-to-order. 20 MALE SPEAKER: That's what we're doing today. 21 MR. WHITWELL: That's what we do today, 22 r ight.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 159 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MR. WHITWELL: And exclude built-to-order, 3 b ut it's not going to change. 4 MALE SPEAKER: It would reduce the range of 5 p roducts. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Significantly. 7 MS. MEYERS: Well, this is Karen with Rheem. 8 I don't know that I completely agree with that. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: (Inaudible) tell you 10 p ersonally, Karen, all my products 3 through 62 are 11 b uilt to order. 12 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, I'm not sure we should be 13 e xcluding (inaudible) for anything, period. 14 MR. FLY: I could go home and -- 15 MS. BARHYDT: Well, if we're going to revisit 16 i t. 17 MS. MEYERS: I don't want to exclude it. 18 MS. BARHYDT: It's not that we're not going 19 t o -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I could see engineered-to21 o rder. 22 MS. MEYERS: I'm not trying to exclude it.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 160 1 I 'm just saying they might need different verification 2 p rocedures. 3 COURT REPORTER: One at a time, please. 4 MS. MEYERS: Maybe it's not a big deal in 5 H VAC. It's going to be a bigger deal when we get to 6 b oilers. So I could probably live with it on commercial 7 H VAC. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think fundamentally 9 t he lab requirements are different. I guess that's the 10 p oint we're talking about here, right. 11 MR. BAUMAN: Right. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I could see where the 13 s election process is different, the lead times might be 14 d ifferent. You know, timing stuff is different, that 15 k ind of thing. But fundamentally, the types of labs and 16 t he requirements of those labs, that's really what 17 w e're talking about. And it's not different here. And 18 I don't think for built-to-order it is. 19 MS. MEYERS: Not on commercial HVAC. 20 MR. BAUMAN: The question is whether a lab is 21 t esting an engineering order -- 22 MS. MEYERS: Large boilers, I might disagree.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161 1 MR. BAUMAN: -- differently. That's one 2 t hing. Stepping back, again, what are we talking about 3 h ere, are we talking about whatever, whether you select 4 o ne a year or ten percent of your whatever? 5 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. 6 MR. BAUMAN: Okay, how did the test get 7 p erformed? That's the discussion we're having here. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 9 MR. BAUMAN: And is there a difference in how 10 a test would be conducted for an engineered-to-order 11 p roduct versus a built-to-order? I don't know that 12 t here's any difference of what the lab would have to 13 b e. 14 MS. MEYERS: I think there would be a 15 d ifference in selection. 16 MR. BAUMAN: Yeah. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 18 MS. MEYERS: Not necessarily the test. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah, Karen, my comment was 20 o nly related to the products on the top of this page. 21 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. I think I was kind of 22 j umping ahead. I think I agree with you for commercial

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162 1 H VAC. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think in the no exclusion 3 o rder, and I think it should be the same for water 4 h eaters. I think it should be engineered-to-order only 5 f or the lab requirements. And I do think there's going 6 t o be a lot of things about engineered-to-order, 7 w hether -- just generally that are special. 8 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, and I'm okay on the water 9 h eater side. The boilers, though, when we get to that, 10 a re you going to make a separate slide for those large 11 b oilers to kind of address how we kicked off this 12 m eeting? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm really sure how we 14 r econcile those issues without having a separate 15 m eeting with them here. So I'm not sure we want to 16 e mbark on that today. 17 MS. MEYERS: Well, let me know when you have 18 t hat meeting, because I'd like to have some of my 19 b oiler folks. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, absolutely. 21 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. As a 22 m anufacturer of both boilers and water heaters, I don't

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 1 s ee a difference. I don't understand why there's a 2 d ifference between those two. There's high volume 3 b uilt- to-stock in boilers, just like there is in water 4 h eaters. And there's slightly larger commercial 5 e quipment that's built-to-stock, you know, build them 6 b y the thousands. And then there's both engineer to 7 o rder and built-to- order where you're in the onesy, 8 t wosy of any one given thing. 9 And where the timeline -- it doesn't matter 10 i f later we say you have to check one a year or a fifty 11 a year, the timeline is the issue of being able to sell 12 a product. You just simply, as a small manufacturer, 13 y ou can't afford to build these products and then throw 14 t hem away. And that's what we would have to do, unless 15 w e can fit in the testing within a few days of our 16 n ormal structure; the customer simply won't buy it by 17 t aking a product, one of their products they bought and 18 p aid for, and having somebody else come in whenever 19 t hey can get in and then you run the test and then you 20 c an ship it. We have to be able to move quickly. And 21 t hat's the reason that I've been -- 22 MS. MEYERS: But it's not certification,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 164 1 F rank, it's verification. 2 MR. MYERS: Exactly. Verification, that's 3 e xact -- I have not been talking about certification. 4 E very word I've uttered about this has been about 5 v erification. You have a unit you need to get a 6 v erification on. Whatever the quantities are that we'll 7 t alk about later, you must verify that unit. When I 8 s ell one of those units, I'm able to verify it. I 9 c an't build one just for verification, because it can't 10 g o in the stock. It's engineered-to-order or built-to11 o rder. 12 MR. THARP: Frank, you know, I think we 13 m entioned that we're doing this large scale and we 14 n ever had a problem. Okay, for equipment much bigger 15 t han what you can produce. So from our perspective it 16 c an be done. 17 MR. MYERS: And from a manufacturer who 18 p articipates in every way that a non-certification 19 p rogram AHRI, who would like to be in that program, I 20 h ave not been able to find a way for a company like 21 o urs to participate. 22 MR. THARP: Well, that's the difference

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 165 1 b etween what you participate in and what AHRI provides 2 t o a different level. 3 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochivar. As I'm 4 t hinking through this, I'm considering, even though we 5 h aven't covered boilers yet, I'm thinking about the 6 b oilers and the words that we heard from Cleaver7 B rooks, from ABMA. And I've seen the facilities 8 s imilar to Cleaver-Brooks, and I know the challenges 9 t hat they're dealing with as far as moving through very 10 l arge product. It sits there and everything else halts; 11 y ou cannot move something else through. And there is 12 n o third party lab they're going to be able to ship 13 t hat to to test, because they can't handle the capacity 14 f or it. And exceptions or different allowances for 15 t hem, if it passes muster for one part of the industry, 16 t hen it should pass muster for another part of the 17 i ndustry. 18 Also we're not trying to create DOE 19 a bsolutely equal to the AHRI program. We need to come 20 u p with a method that is adequately reliable for DOE, 21 b ut the idea that, "Oh, we do this for AHRI already, 22 t herefore this is how the DOE program needs to go," I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166 1 d on't think it's necessarily -- we shouldn't set that 2 p aradigm. We did already create a hierarchy of what we 3 f elt like, as far as the reliability of the data that 4 w e would get out of three different options. There's 5 d efinitely some lack of certitude with this satellite 6 p rogram that it's not a favored preferred method. But 7 f or these built-to-order, engineered-to-order products, 8 i t seems to me that that is a reasonable balance, and 9 i t's a reasonable balance for any of the industry. 10 So I just threw a bunch of stuff out there, 11 b ut you all can throw darts at it now. End of rant. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So I'm going to suggest that we 13

- - I mean, we have a lot of ideas here for water 14 h eaters. We've talked about HVAC. I think we have a 15 p retty good agreement on HVAC. Why don't we start 16 t alking about another product, and I think we're going 17 t o end up revisiting everything in order to take a 18 v ote? So let's see what we can get for several 19 p roducts. 20 Yes. 21 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. I'm 22 s till concerned. We need at least one option for

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 167 1 t hings that are not 17025. Because if it's not in the 2 s cope, third party labs can't cover it. We have 3 p roducts that AHRI doesn't recognize. I know other 4 m anufacturers have products that AHRI doesn't 5 r ecognize. It's going to happen eventually. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Are they covered products? 7 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, they're covered by the 8 D OE. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Are you sure? 10 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: I think I've a conversation 12 w ith you on a couple. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't want to talk about 14 t hat. 15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik. That's right. 16 MR. STEPHENS: See that's the issue. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't to talk about that 18 o ne either. 19 MR. STANONIK: There are not any DOE-covered 20 p roducts we do not recognize within the scope of 21 p roducts (inaudible). 22 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So there's a discussion

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 168 1 a bout the word "recognize." 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. I mean, if you're 3 t alking about combination products, it gets sticky. 4 T here are some products that may meet the definitions 5 o f DOE-regulated products, but we may not have existing 6 t est procedures or standards for them. 7 I'm not talking about those products here, 8 b ecause we don't have existing test procedures or 9 s tandards for them. But they are covered, and DOE does 10 h ave the authority in the event it wanted to pick them 11 u p sometime in the future. There are other products 12 t hat don't meet our definitions at all, and they're 13 j ust not regulated. So I don't know without -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: None of this would apply to 15 s omething that doesn't have testing and standards. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 17 MR. EISNER: And are those the products 18 y ou're talking about? 19 MR. STEPHENS: I have one product that's 20 b eginning on BUS, it's a heating product or it's a 21 w ater heating product. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And you had a lot of

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 169 1 t hose questions. 2 MR. SACHS: We're doing our best to bring 3 m ore. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I'm aware. And I 5 a ppreciate the innovation, I think it's great. But our 6 s tatute -- 7 MR. SACHS: Not my problem. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: My lawyers give me some 9 ( inaudible). 10 MS. BARHYDT: That's a different part. 11 MR. STEPHENS: So we make -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's difficult. And without 13 k nowing the attributes, I'm not going to say 14 d efinitively how your product is characterized under 15 D OE regards. The realization is a product that 16 p erforms multiple functions of two different covered 17 p roducts are just that, two different covered products. 18 A water heater and heating appliance. And in some 19 c ases, you may need to test as a water heater and a 20 h eating appliance. That's right now the way our regs - 21

- I mean, if something is a refrigerator and a 22 m icrowave, it must be tested as a refrigerator and a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 170 1 m icrowave. And certified as such, et cetera, etc 2 e tera. 3 MR. SACHS: I'm glad you're going to regulate 4 ( inaudible). 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have had all these 6 e xamples. I wanted to make light of it. 7 And it's complicated, so I can't answer for 8 y our product specifically. But for some of the ones 9 t hat we've gotten about whether I make a product 10 t hat's, you know, it's really no different than when 11 J ill talks about her package systems that have a 12 f urnace in it. Well, that's an air conditioner and a 13 f urnace. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yep. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And they have to be tested 16 a nd certified to separate things. I mean, the ones 17 t hat combine two different appliances -- so it's not 18 t hat simple. But if it's subject to our, you know, if 19 M ary wants to make a commercial refrigerator that on 20 t he back side is also -- 21 MS. MEYERS: An icemaker. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: An icemaker, exactly. She

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171 1 h as a commercial refrigerator and an automatic 2 c ommercial icemaker. 3 MS. MEYERS: And on our package units, we 4 h ave two different energy guide labels. Because it's a 5 h eating appliance and it's an air conditioning 6 a ppliance. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I don't know if that 8 h elps alleviate your concerns or causes more concerns, 9 b ut -- 10 MR. STEPHENS: Two specific instances. When 11 t ankless water heaters came into the US market, there 12 w asn't a standard for it. When the Combi boilers came 13 i nto the boiler market -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are we talking "standard" 15 m eaning "test procedure," or are we talking "standard" 16 m eaning you want to be regulated with a number? 17 MR. STEPHENS: Both. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Typically, no one comes to us 19 a nd says, "We want to be regulated with a number." 20 MR. STEPHENS: I want them to be regulated 21 w ith a number. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Fair enough.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 172 1 MR. STEPHENS: Right. But the Combi boiler 2 s ituation, it's the same thing. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. There are some 4 i ssues. 5 MR. STEPHENS: So if we do this with the 6 1 7025 requirement, we're corning ourselves. We need 7 t he ability to innovate and to do things -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think this is 9 p reventing you necessarily from innovating. That being 10 s aid, you know, most of what you're talking about is 11 t esting issues, period. Whether it be a procedural 12 i ssue -- I mean, most of them are test procedure 13 i ssues, which is a whole -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: So I have a question about the 15 1 7025. And my understanding is that within the scope, 16 i t's not like it's going to say the scope is DOE test 17 p rocedure A, B, C. It's going to say that you can test 18 a commercial air conditioner, or something like that, 19 n o? 20 MR. KOJAK: No, it's called an actual 21 ( inaudible). 22 MS. BARHYDT: The DOE reg?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 173 1 MR. KOJAK: Um-hmm. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So if a manufacturer has 4 a test procedure waiver, will a 17025 be able to use 5 t hat test procedure waiver, or do we have an issue 6 t here? Because as far as DOE's concerned, that product 7 s hould be tested under the conditions of the waiver. 8 B ecause that's what the test procedure that applies to 9 t hat product is once we've issued that decision in an 10 o rder. 11 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. 17025 has 12 n othing to do with the test procedure. I mean, it's 13 j ust the process by which you go about to make sure -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: But so what we're saying is 15 w ithin the scope. 16 Does the scope encompass whether it's the DOE 17 t est procedure, or whether it's a DOE test procedure as 18 m odified by a waiver, or does that not matter? 19 MR. AMRANE: 17025 doesn't care about that. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, I just wanted to check. 21 MR. STEPHENS: But we said in this document 22 p reviously that it had to be identified in the scope.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 174 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The DOE test procedure. 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. 3 A nd I know in our 17025 -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the DOE test procedure; 5 r ight? 6 MR. MYERS: -- satellite approval, we have 7 l isted in our 17025 documentation. We are only 8 a uthorized to serve as a satellite facility, whatever 9 1 7025 laboratory for those test procedures. That's all 10 w e're authorized to serve as their eyes for. 11 MR. EISNER: So the procedure is -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the procedure -- 13 MR. MYERS: So it is in fact in -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- it should be for the DOE 15 t est procedure, and for any waivers that a lab may want 16 t o be running. 17 MR. GORMAN: This is John Gorman, CSA. The 18 w ay it works is the 17025 is like a compliance 19 g uideline document, if you will. When I as an agency 20 a pply to have my program recognized by the overseeing 21 b odies that do this for a living, I say I want to be 22 r ecognized to DOE procedure X, Y, Z, if you will, or

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 175 1 C FR 430 part whatever, if you will. Or whatever the 2 s tandard happens to be. And then I'll get a certificate 3 f rom that agency that says, "CSA is good to go," 17025 4 f or these documents. So the scope is really -- the 5 s cope that you have, that's your accrediting body for 6 w hat you're being capable of doing. So it's not 17025 7 b y itself. That just sort of rules that an agency uses 8 t o get accreditation for a particular scope. 9 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. 10 I t's really more the scope of the lab. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, exactly. 12 MR. STANONIK: I mean, theoretically, you go 13 t o a 17025 lab that samples blood; right. I mean -- 14 MR. GORMAN: Sure. Well, yeah, I mean, 15 e xactly. Yeah. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I mean, it should be like 17 w hen I go out to do testing, I make sure a given test 18 p rocedure is in that lab's scope. I say, "What is your 19 s cope?" And I said, you know, I make sure it should be 20 w ithin the scope to be the DOE test procedure and/or 21 a ny waivers that they may need to run. Period. 22 MR. GORMAN: Correct. And you can verify

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 176 1 t hat by looking online at the accrediting bodies. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 3 MR. GORMAN: And you'll see the certificate 4 t here. You'll see exactly what an agency or a 5 l aboratory has been accredited to do, it's scope. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So when we issue a waiver, 7 i t's an alternative method of test. So we'll say you 8 d on't have to run what's in the CEFR. You're allowed 9 t o run this alternative method of test. 10 MR. KOJAK: So can the DOE give all the 11 d ifferent alternative waivers to the third party test 12 l abs that can be (inaudible)? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're online 14 MS. BARHYDT: They're online. 15 MR. KOJAK: Okay. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: There's a long list of them. 17 MR. KOJAK: Okay. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it's increasing by the 19 d ay. 20 MALE SPEAKER: So (inaudible) not company21 s pecific. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are. They're company-

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 177 1 s pecific and basic model-specific. So you have to 2 k now; the manufacturer should be, yeah, telling you. 3 MR. STEPHENS: So what happens when we 4 d evelop standard X that address a combination heating 5 a nd cooling appliance that there is no existing 6 s tandard for? How do we achieve 17025 on that? Is it 7 s imply because you have experience in the heating field 8 d oing those tests and cooling and those tests? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's why I asked you, 10 r ight. I mean, how do you experience -- 11 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I 12 m ean, 17025 doesn't apply to specific product group. 13 I t applies to the lab and to how the lab is 14 f unctioning. 17025 doesn't -- it's not product-specific 15 a t all. It just deals with how you operate your lab, 16 h ow you do calibration, how you train your personnel 17 a nd those kinds of things, that's all it does. To get 18 a waiver, I've been through several waivers with DOE 19 f or our VRF products, and in actuality, the first one, 20 w e didn't have an alternative test procedure. That 21 c ame maybe on the second one. But we had an 22 a lternative test procedure that we had to follow. But

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 178 1 w e did our own testing and then we kept a list of the 2 r esults that we had from that testing. 3 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. You've 4 l ost your way again. Every issue that Phillip is 5 r aising has to be resolved before he can certify the 6 p roduct. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. 8 MR. STANONIK: So we're talking about 9 v erification. So every issue, by the time we get to 10 v erification, it would've been resolved; otherwise, he 11 d oesn't have a certified product. And I hate to be 12 t hat blunt, but you're wasting your time on this issue 13 r ight now. 14 MR. KOJAK: If you test the product with a 15 w aiver for certification, and then that product needs 16 t o be verified, the third party test lab that's going 17 t o, in order to verify it, has to have that waiver in 18 t heir scope as well. 19 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, ARHI. The 20 m anufacturer got the waiver because he needed the 21 w aiver. And when you're going to test it for 22 v erification he doesn't tell you and give you the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 179 1 w aiver. It's like he or she's not paying attention. 2 MR. KOJAK: But that has to be added into the 3 s cope of the ISO (inaudible) lab. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hang on. Hang on, hang on, 5 h ang on. 6 MR. STANONIK: It's inherent. 7 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. 8 G enerally -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I may not agree with that, 10 F rank. So I would agree; so there's simple waivers, 11 r ight. Just give me one second. There's simple 12 w aivers that say, you know, test that X temperature 13 i nstead of Y. The method's identical, except instead of 14 f ive, you're testing at ten. 15 Now, that's within your scope. You're 16 r unning the same test; you're just using a different 17 t emperature, right. I mean, that's like a no-brainer. 18 T here's other ones that say you don't have to use this 19 p rocedure at all. It's not applicable. Like when 20 P aul's products first came out and said you use this 21 c ompletely different procedure. That one, I would 22 a rgue is not necessarily within someone's scope

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180 1 a tomically. 2 MALE SPEAKER: Like VRF. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Like VRF is a good example. 4 S o someone that can run a CAC test procedure doesn't 5 n ecessarily isn't necessarily able to run a VRF. 6 MR. AMRANE: Do you think that the actual 7 1 7025 will give you that? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no, no. I was 9 t hinking it should be in the scope. Now, I mean that 10 I 'm not arguing necessarily this point. I'm just 11 s aying some of them I think may need to be separately 12 w ithin the scope. Others, just like as a temperature 13 t hing are simple just changes to a test procedure to 14 a ccommodate a given product's design. 15 MR. EISNER: The new one that you would have 16 t o add to the scope of the testing laboratory, when 17 w ould that be out? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So before a manufacturer can 19 u se it to come up with a rating, it has to be approved 20 b y DOE. It's put on the photo register; it's put on 21 o ur website. They then can use it for their 22 c ertification testing, coming up with their ratings.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 181 1 T hey have to certify it with DOE. They have to say 2 t hey used a waiver. They have to say which basic 3 m odels they applied it to. It has to all match all the 4 p aperwork, et cetera, et cetera. So -- and the lab 5 w ould know. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. So if I'm a manufacturer 7 a nd I'm participating in a DOE-approved program, I 8 w ould think that when the manufacturer gets the waiver 9 t hey would notify whoever is running their DOE approved 10 p rogram that, hey, I just got this waiver. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or they take option two where 12 t hey want to test in their own lab and they make sure 13 i t's within their scope. And by default, they agree to 14 h ave someone there on site, because it's within their 15 s cope. And that's the end of that. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Bob Whitwell from Carrier. 17 T here's another approach, too, and that is -- I mean, 18 D OE is making selections on what's tested. So DOE 19 c ould say -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: We haven't talked about who's 21 g oing to select it. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that's a --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 182 1 MR. WHITWELL: But it could be, and DOE could 2 s ay look at this product, it doesn't have a standard 3 t est procedure, it's a waiver. And they maybe say it 4 c ould be some discussion with the manufacturer. Okay, 5 w e're going to select a different product. Right. I 6 m ean, you don't have to test products that have this 7 s ort of an issue. Over time, they're going to get 8 s orted out. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And in theory, you know, we 10 j ust go away with test procedure rules. 11 MR. AMRANE: Well, technically, a waiver is 12 j ust a temporary thing. I mean, eventually there will 13 b e a test procedure. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, that's what I was 15 t rying to say. In theory, it's supposed to be a 16 t emporary thing; correct? 17 MR. WHITWELL: So it can be handled. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. 19 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. If we do this 20 c arefully and people pay attention to the detail, all 21 w e'd have to do is then write our scopes differently, 22 n ot say test the ASHRE standard 72. Instead, say test

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 183 1 t he CFR 10430, which would include the waivers. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not in the waiver. 3 MS. BARHYDT: It's not in the CFR at all. 4 MR. HON: The specification test procedures? 5 MS. BARHYDT: Not for the waivers. It's an 6 o rder issued by the department. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, if you put -- I have 8 a ll of 431 in my scope, then okay. But if somebody 9 a ctually says okay to that, that's a little -- I mean, 10 t hat's not okay. Because that's like I'm good at 11 e verything, I'm okay at everything, I can run 12 e verything, but not -- 13 MR. HON: Well, 431 commercial refrigeration. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would not encompass your 15 w aiver. 16 MR. HON: Okay, that's what I'm asking. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. 18 MR. FLY: Mark Fly, with AAON. Now, I heard 19 e arlier about we were talking about accrediting bodies. 20 I s that how you determine whether a test is in the 21 s cope is by looking at the accreditation from an 22 a ccrediting body, or the lab --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 184 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not going to work, 2 r ight, for a manufacturer's log. 3 MR. FLY: Well, if you were being on a 4 s atellite underneath the -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would. 6 MR. FLY: -- 17025 that was accredited by an 7 a ccrediting body, then I assume that would filter down. 8 I f it's, you know, is there some other path to become a 9 r ecognized laboratory if you're a manufacturer? I 10 h aven't seen us talk about that, doing it through a 11 s atellite-type program. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 13 MR. FLY: So really, the accrediting bodies 14 a re the ones that are telling you what the scope is on 15 e ach one. Now, I assume they're going to accredit you 16 t o 430, you know, one of your DOE test procedures and 17 n ot necessarily the waiver thereof, but the waiver we'd 18 g et, DOE would recognize it if you wrote a waiver on 19 t hat test procedure that that would be acceptable. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. We've never 21 v entured down this pathway before. But like the 22 e xample I gave, I mean, some of them are very simple;

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 185 1 s ome of them are just a simple different operating 2 t emperature, or range or something. Different 3 l ocation, you know. Other ones are a completely 4 d ifferent method of test. 5 MR. FLY: But I could see pushback from an 6 a ccrediting authority to add something to the scope of 7 t he standard that's not a standard. 8 MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak with UL. 9 B ecause when we get audited yearly by our accreditors, 10 i f they specially pick a project that has a waiver and 11 t hen that is not in their scope of accreditation, there 12 w ill be an issue with that. You know, 'cause they'll 13 g o on, you know, because everything has to be traceable 14 a nd documented, and everything is carefully followed. 15 S o if we're conducting tests that are not in our scope 16

- - 17 MR. EISNER: Are you making the point that 18 b ecause it's not in the CFR, you can't put it in your 19 s cope, or are you saying something else? 20 MR. KOJAK: I'm saying that just because have 21 l ike a 430 subpart B, let's say in there, but we run a 22 w aiver of a product like that, that's not exactly

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 186 1 s ubpart B, they're going to have an issue with -- 2 MR. EISNER: Which waiver is it? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. 4 MR. KOJAK: Is it something different than 5 w hat part B says? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. No, I understand. 7 MR. KOJAK: I mean, we do -- I mean, that 8 k ind of goes into effect with, you know, we do a lot of 9 R ND testing in our lab as well. So a lot of the 10 t esting that we're doing is driven by the 11 m anufacturers, and it's not per the actual standard. 12 W hich is kind of a big ordeal every time they come and 13 a udit us for us to explain, just because let's say it's 14 A RHI 34360 test and they look at what we actually did; 15 i t might not have the exact same test conditions or the 16 t ests aren't exactly the same, because we're being told 17 b y our customer exactly how they want us to run it. 18 B ut the setup and the calculations and everything are 19 e xactly the same as 346360. 20 But I mean, I guess it might fall under the 21 s ame kind of thing, now that I'm thinking about it. 22 B ecause it's the exact same, you know, the main meat

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 187 1 a nd potatoes of the regulation. But just something 2 s lightly has changed. But as long as there's some kind 3 o f documentation, I think, from the DOE about that, 4 t hen our accreditors would be okay with it. 5 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel with Mitsubishi. I 6 t hink we're getting off track again with this 7 d iscussion on waivers. Because if a product is covered 8 u nder a waiver, then it's not covered by this 9 v erification program yet; right? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 11 MS. BARHYDT: No. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's covered. 13 MR. WHITWELL: You mean it's not, or not, 14 i t's -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is covered. Why wouldn't 16 i t be? 17 MS. BARHYDT: It's a basic model that's been 18 c ertified. 19 MR. WHITWELL: So a waiver (inaudible). 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not a waiver. 21 MR. DOPPEL: No, no, no. VRF systems had not 22 b een incorporated into --

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 188 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are now though; right? 2 S o once you start certifying -- 3 MR. DOPPEL: Right. But this whole 4 d iscussion about, you know, if we have a waiver on a 5 p roduct, that's what I'm saying. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Well, you got the 7 w aiver prior to a lot of things. Sometimes waivers are 8 n ot actually obtained until two years after 9 d istribution and commerce. This is not really how the 10 p rocess is supposed to go. 11 MR. DOPPEL: Well, that's because the waiver 12 t ook two and a half years, you know. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no, no, that's not -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: No, it's not. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: They don't any more. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Not any more. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anyhow, I agree. The waiver, 18 p roducts that -- it really comes down to certification. 19 I f you've certified a product, period, it's subject to 20 v erification at this point. 21 MR. DOPPEL: Right. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Because that means it's

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 189 1 s ubject to standards; it's supposed to be tested; you 2 a re making representations and you are distributing it 3 i n commerce. Regardless of whether it's a DOE test 4 p rocedure or waiver. 5 MS. MEYERS: But wouldn't the verification be 6 d one for the waiver? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. It's whatever 8 t he applicable DOE test procedure is, which includes a 9 w aiver. 10 MS. MEYERS: So I fail to see what the issue 11 i s. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Well, the issue is that it's a 13 w ording issue. Because right now it says that it has 14 t o be within the scope. And the labs don't have 15 w aivers within their scope right now. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Explicitly. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Explicitly. And so it's a 18 q uestion of whether or not that would be within the 19 s cope of their (inaudible). 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll just have to work out 21 t he details. 22 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 190 1 MR. HON: Let's propose this: DOE has the 2 r ight to accept data from a non-17025 waiver that is 3 d one by the agency and the test agency, which are 4 c ompetent for the main testing. Until that waiver is 5 n o longer valid. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 7 MR. HON: Thereby, we could work it out 8 b etween us. He doesn't violate his 17025 listing by 9 s aying this is not part of the scope of it. But he's 10 s till a 17025 for 430. Does that work? 11 MS. BARHYDT: I think it probably would. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll have to think about the 13 w ords, but yeah. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 15 MR. HON: Yeah, but you get the gist of what 16 I 'm saying. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah. 18 MR. HON: Because they're a competent body at 19 t he main test; therefore, they're not going to apply 20 f or competency as a part of that waiver for their cost, 21 a nd for our cost and for everybody else's cost. But 22 t hey're able to be a third party verifier.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 191 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just make a note for us to 2 l ook back at -- 3 MR. MYERS: So this is something like DOE 4 w ill accept data -- 5 COURT REPORTER: Can you speak louder, 6 p lease, sir? Because they were speaking over you. 7 MR. MYERS: Oh, I'm sorry. This is Frank 8 M yers, PVI. 9 I was thinking that it would need to say 10 s omething like that DOE will accept data from a -- and 11 t hen describe the laboratory like you did. That way 12 t he laboratory would be able to show this why I'm able 13 t o run this test, that DOE says they'll accept data 14 l ike this for waivers. 15 MR. WHITWELL: And what does that say? 16 MS. BARHYDT: It says we need to develop some 17 l anguage to address accepting test data from labs where 18 t he product is subject to DOE test procedure waiver. 19 I t's mainly just a bookmark for us to figure out. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. 21 MS. BARHYDT: And say something about it. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, not to get off of the

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 192 1 w aiver discussion, but is there anything on the slide 2 t hat should be different for CRE? Can we just add CRE 3 t o this one? 4 MR. HON: I have no problem. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: For testing requirements. 6 MR. EISNER: Does anybody have a problem? 7 A nybody want to abstain on it in terms of the 8 i nformality we're going through here with approving 9 t hese things? Everybody's okay with it? Good. 10 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron Shebik (inaudible). 11 It's the only question I have. I know it 12 c ame up in earlier discussions. But why for CRE, and I 13 t hink Mary brought this up as well, what about the 14 t esting program where UL or Intertek or somebody would 15 o versee it, but not exactly witness it? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That option is not accounted 17 f or here. 18 MS. DANE: Like our Energy Star programs we 19 t alked about. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. This requires a 21 w itness. 22 MR. HON: Or a third party verification.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 193 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or a third party. 2 MR. EISNER: Did you hear that? 3 MR. BAUMAN: We have third party -- and I'm 4 t rying to give clarification to Ron. So you either 5 h ave testing by a third party, testing in a 6 m anufacturing lab with witness testing. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's it. 8 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Do we want to put on 9 t heir CRE full satellite program. Is that your 10 q uestion, Ron? 11 MR. SHEBIK: Well, just because, I mean look 12 a t the stuff for a lot of CRE companies, I mean, we're 13 u nder the satellite (inaudible), the UL client test 14 d ata program. And again, that's dismissed the purpose 15 o f DOE and our energy conservation. But I mean, we're 16 d oing these type programs for safety and food product 17 s afety. So why would we not do it for performance in 18 e nergy? Why would we have to have the extra stuff of 19 h aving a witness there on site, as opposed to be able 20 t o perform our own tasks and submit the data to the 21 a gency? 22 MR. BAUMAN: I would agree with that. Even

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 194 1 a t level four where you've been certified to be able to 2 t he submit the data, the ANC still has to review it, 3 b ut you would not need a witness test. 4 MR. SHEBIK: Right. That's under satellite 5 f or units under UL client test data program. I mean, 6 i f that's sufficient for the safety of the end user, 7 a nd as well as food product safety, then why would it 8 n ot be sufficient for something like this? 9 MR. HON: It's also acceptable for Energy 10 S tar and Canon. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You said you weren't going to 12 d o that to me. 13 MR. SHEBIK: Bringing a witness is a burden. 14 MS. DANE: Would it be helpful to bring you 15 s ome of the information to see how those programs are 16 s et up? I mean, these aren't easy things for us to 17 q ualify for and to do. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It wouldn't hurt to circulate 19 i t before the next meeting, just so that everyone is 20 u nder the same page in terms of -- 21 MS. DANE: We can do that. So you'd 22 u nderstand the difference between the level three and a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 195 1 l evel (inaudible). 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. That'd be helpful, 3 t hank you. 4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And out of my 5 u sual ignorance, my sense is that NSF and perhaps 6 o thers have formal programs for assuring the safety and 7 t he food product safety. So my question is really sort 8 o f an inverse. Is it feasible that NSF would want to 9 t ake the energy performance under their ages as well, 10 s o that you have a uniform set of requirements that 11 w ould look like a VICP to DOE? 12 MR. THARP: Well, this is Rusty with Goodman. 13 I 'm going to interject something here. We keep 14 r eferencing the satellite program that is used for 15 s afety testing. Well, one thing, another portion of 16 t hose safety testings is quarterly audits where the 17 s afety certification company, UL, Intertek, whoever, 18 c omes into your facility on a random basis, unannounced 19 t ypically and audits products as they're going down the 20 p roduction line. So I might suggest that if this is a 21 w ay we want to do for performance, then just the same 22 t hing would happen for energy audits. If you want to

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 196 1 u se that procedure. 2 MR. SHEBIK: (Inaudible). I would agree that 3 i t should parallel with the existing programs for 4 s afety and food (inaudible). 5 Jeff, Charlie, do you guys have a problem 6 w ith that? 7 MR. BAUMAN: This is Jeff. You know, if the 8 p roduct is NSF-certified, you know, certified NSF and 9 c ertified to UL, then that's certifying the components 10 t hat are in there. So I don't know that we need to 11 p hysically call out as part of the DOE requirements you 12 h ave to be NS- or UL-certified. I know EPS or Energy 13 S tar does that. But you're not going to be selling 14 t hat product if it's not per your safety and 15 s anitation. 16 MS. DANE: NSF is the certifying body for 17 E nergy Star, are they not? Aren't they one of the ones 18 t hat can be picked? 19 MR. BAUMAN: They're one of the certification 20 b odies that are -- but it's a different program, it's 21 f or energy testing versus -- so it's a completely 22 d ifferent (inaudible).

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 197 1 MS. DANE: Right. But he's saying about 2 c ombining them so they could come in and do it, too. 3 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. There's a difference 4 h ere, because part of the testing process for Energy 5 S tar and for CSA is ongoing third party verification 6 s ystems. Where they call up and tell us what models, 7 e ach six months we have to go through retesting and 8 r everification process. It's not like we're just - 9 t hey're often never looking at us. They're coming in, 10 w itnessing those every six months witness test along 11 w ith what data we would submit in between times. It is 12 a n ongoing witness and data certification. It is not 13 o ne or the other, it is both. 14 MS. BARHYDT: So they are doing witness 15 t esting. 16 MR. HON: Yes. 17 MR. SHEBIK: Right, and they do a spot check 18 e very six months, I believe. 19 MR. HON: We have to produce a certain number 20 o f units, which is directly proportional with the 21 n umber of units we have listed. 22 MS. DANE: The percentage is different than

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198 1 y our percentage. 2 MS. BARHYDT: We don't know what our 3 p ercentage is. 4 MS. DANE: Well, we've been talking about 20 5 p ercent. Theirs is lower. 6 MR. SHEBIK: This is Ron with Hussmann again. 7 I n addition to the agency coming in every six months 8 a nd doing their witness test, you would also have the 9 a bility to do your own testing in-house and some of the 10 d ata without having a witness present every time you do 11 y our own in-house testing. So there are spot checks 12 t wice a year. But that is twice a year. Any 13 a dditional testing would not require witnessing. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 15 MR. SHEBIK: So that's the difference between 16 h aving a witness for every single test. 17 MR. HON: We would love to parallel the 18 w itness testing from that and we could do it all at one 19 t ime. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Who's "them"? 21 MS. DANE: EPA. 22 MR. HON: They're doing EPA Energy Star

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 199 1 t esting for us. 2 MS. DANE: And they're going to use your 3 s tandard, you're saying? It's a shame to duplicate all 4 t hat programs. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's accurate. 6 MR. HON: That is a very cost-effective 7 m ethod, because we can set up multiple units at the 8 s ame time and run them all at the same time. 9 MR. SACHS: Am I getting the assurance I 10 n eed? That's my only question. (Inaudible) parallels. 11 MR. HON: This system we're talking about has 12 t hird party witness testing at least ten percent of the 13 s ystem every year. 14 MS. DANE: And we don't pick the units, they 15 d o. They send us a note and say here's what we want to 16 s ee, be ready. 17 MR. BAUMAN: Harvey, is your (inaudible) 18 b etter than DOE? 19 And your question is regarding the safety of 20 t he equipment for holding temperature, or are you just 21 t alking about for -- I'm trying to understand the 22 q uestion better.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 200 1 MR. SACHS: Yeah, I'm sorry, Jeff. 2 As a consumer, I'm very much interested in my 3 i ce cream being hard and my yogurt being safe. As a 4 s takeholder here, if you can do it with less energy, I 5 l ike it. But I mostly have to be relatively sure that 6 y our product's not using more energy than the law would 7 a llow. So I'm looking for that level of assurance, 8 j ust as I'm looking at that from any other VICP or 9 i ndependent method. That's all I care about. 10 MS. DANE: I believe we have that assurance. 11 B ecause I -- when they come in, their eyes are looking 12 a t different things. The follow-up service comes in, 13 a nd they're looking at certain products to certain 14 s tandards. So if they were -- 15 MR. SACHS: But my understanding the sort of 16 l evel three, level four, the level that my units 17 c apable of -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think I suggested a 19 l ittle bit earlier, and Mary offered that they'd 20 c irculate the documents and describe that, we'll think 21 a bout it. 22 MR. SACHS: Maybe the execute summary.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 201 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. And touch back on it 2 n ext time. 3 MS. DANE: Right, okay. 4 MR. BAUMAN: I think the other thing, Harvey, 5 w hen you talk about that stuff and what concerns us 6 a lso, is that you get into a little bit of discussion 7 w hat the test standard is. You know, you're testing 8 f or 75 degrees for energy and different. Although, 9 t here's been some changes to that to bring closer to 10 t he NSF. But again, you get into commercial kitchens, 11 w hat's the temperature they're operating in versus 12 w here you -- because if you're designing for energy 13 t hat doesn't mean it's going to hold your food safely 14 a t 100 degrees or 90 degrees that a kitchen's at, 15 v ersus 75 degrees test. So -- 16 MR. SACHS: We would welcome the opportunity 17 t o take those discussions to any test procedure with 18 r eality. 19 MR. BAUMAN: I will get with you on that. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We semi addressed that in the 21 l ast CRE rule. 22 MR. BAUMAN: Well, as I said, you're getting

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 202 1 c loser. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Some acknowledgement, right. 3 MR. SACHS: And at this rate, we'll converge 4 b y 2015. 5 MR. AMRANE: I'll take what I can get. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, I'm going to suggest 7 s ince there are two major boiler players not here, that 8 w e deal with boilers separately. Because we know we 9 h ave issues, we'll deal with them when they can be 10 a vailable to talk about it and have ideas. If that's 11 o kay with everyone. 12 MS. MEYERS: That's fine. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Do you want to talk about how 15 m any units? 16 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. I 17 m ean, right now, we have vanilla and chocolate. We 18 h ave the program for the criteria for HVAC, and then we 19 h ave this. Do you think we're going to have strawberry 20 f or boilers? I mean, it's going to be one or the 21 o ther, right? Isn't that likely? Couldn't you at 22 l east --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 203 1 MALE SPEAKER: We like Neapolitan, too. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: The answer is I don't know. 3 B ased on those emails, it doesn't seem like -- 4 MR. STANONIK: Okay, all right. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: It may take us a while to get 6 t o vanilla, chocolate, or strawberry. 7 MR. EISNER: I'm holding out for peanut 8 b utter. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll take that one, too. 10 MS. BARHYDT: The people who wrote the email 11 ( inaudible), too. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't want anything to do 13 w ith strawberry. 14 MS. BARHYDT: We do have one of them as -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, I think it's going to 16 r equire a little more. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yeah, and some of this we want 18 t o go back and look at some of this ourselves. So I 19 t hink it would just be more productive to have the 20 b oiler discussion later. 21 MR. SACHS: Frank, we just haven't had our 22 ( inaudible) yet.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 204 1 MS. BARHYDT: So in terms of how many units 2 t o test, let's split it out again between built-to3 o rder to engineer to order and built-to-stock. 4 MR. STEPHENS: And small manufacturers? 5 MS. BARHYDT: What if you're a small 6 m anufacturer who makes an enormous volume? 7 MR. STEPHENS: You wouldn't have the 8 c lassification of small manufacturer for long. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah, you would. Because 10 u nder our regs -- so it depends -- under our regs, 11 s mall manufacturer can just be number of employees, 12 t hat simple. Not necessarily revenue. So it could be 13 t hat you're really -- I mean, you don't employ a lot, 14 o r you just bring in products and label them. I mean, 15 t hat's a manufacturer as well under our regs. And so -- 16 MR. EISNER: Is there any reason to consider 17 u sing a definitive definition just for this rule? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. That's an 19 i dea. I mean, it's where we have SBA's classifications 20 a nd sometimes they use expenditures, and sometimes they 21 u se number of employees. It's really depending on 22 N AICS, NACIS, whatever it is. When you look up those

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 205 1 r eally long tables and find the industry. So we just 2 d epartmentize. 3 MR. EISNER: I believe you have the authority 4 t o use your own definition in particular situations. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know in our test procedures 6 a nd standards rules and other aspects of it, we use 7 t hat. So I don't know if we want to use a separate 8 d efinition just for this aspect of the program. But 9 t hat's not including us. 10 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. Might you 11 b e able to use volume of product shipped, a particular, 12 e ven down to a product family how many of that product 13 f amily shipped? 14 MR. EISNER: What are we talking about? 15 MS. DANE: I'm not getting the volumes. 16 D on't go down there. 17 MR. EISNER: What are we talking about is the 18 p roblem that you see the small entities facing here? 19 MR. MYERS: The number of tests you have to 20 d o for -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're just certifications. 22 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 206 1 t hink before we talked about -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Would that work? 3 MR. AMRANE: -- incentives with models being 4 t ested. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Some more things. 6 MR. AMRANE: I think we need to define. We 7 w ere talking last time about the product family from 8 t he basic model group. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can use another term. 10 M ultiple terms can be confusing. We have done a lot of 11 w ork in defining basic models. I don't know if there 12 i s a way we could translate a percentage into basic 13 m odels terms so we keep a singular term, but the impact 14 i s such on a percentage-wise that would be something 15 t hat everyone is okay with. So, I mean, if you use 16 b asic model groups now and it is ten percent and when 17 t ranslated to basic models it's five percent, then 18 m aybe your number is five percent or maybe it goes the 19 o ther way. It's 10 percent now and it goes 20 percent. 20 I don't know. And I could be wrong, but introducing 21 a nother term for the purposes of this may be confusing. 22 I don't know what people -- I see shaking your heads

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 207 1 a nd no-ing of heads. 2 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly With AAON. One of 3 m y concerns is that some of the smaller companies, and 4 " smaller" to be defined, I consider myself a smaller 5 c ompany, compared to some of the people sitting in this 6 r oom certainly, but we have an awful lot of SKUs. You 7 k now, we have a lot. We were going to have a lot of 8 b asic models -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You are. 10 MR. FLY: -- just because of what we build. 11 A nd so when you defined a percentage of basic models, I 12 a m going to be doing a lot of testing compared to 13 s omebody who may be, you know, a three trillion-dollar 14 c ompany that is not doing very much because they only 15 m ake a whole lot of one or two items. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So are there a couple of 17 c haracteristics that we could say, you know, percentage 18 o f model -- 19 MR. FLY: I don't want an answer, by the way. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I know. That's no 21 p roblem. 22 -- number of models certified or employee

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 208 1 n umber buckets or something that would get at, you 2 k now, "I am small, but I have a large product 3 o ffering." I mean, you could also be a small 4 m anufacturer and make 5 products and make 100,000 of 5 e ach of the 5. And in that case, you know -- 6 MR. FLY: Not many people in this -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. Right? 8 MR. FLY: -- are going to do this. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. I was making more 10 o f an egregious example just to get that point across. 11 MR. FLY: If you're making light bulbs, 12 y ou're right. Yes. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, in that case, it's 14 n ot the same as a small manufacturer like you who is 15 g oing to make or, you know -- 16 MR. FLY: But I have more than 500 employees. 17 I 'm not going to be a small manufacturer. 18 MR. AMRANE: I think the basic concept has 19 w orked at least within AHRI for smaller and larger 20 m anufacturers at the same time. 21 MR. FLY: And what that has kind of done -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: How do you make your

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 209 1 s elections? I mean, how is it that -- right now is it 2 j ust the thought-out requirement of ten percent? I was 3 t rying to read through some of this. I apologize I 4 d idn't get through all of the manuals you sent out. 5 MR. AMRANE: AHRI is about 20 percent of the 6 b asic model groups, which has probably found the -- in 7 g eneral, that's programs which have different rules. 8 MR. FLY: From my standpoint for my company - 9

- this is Mark Fly again -- what that has done is I 10 d on't have to test any less than Jill, but I test the 11 s ame as Jill probably because we probably had about the 12 s ame basic model family. So, you know, at least I am 13 n ot testing more, but I suspect I am going to have more 14 b asic models the way DOE has defined than Jill might 15 h ave. I don't know that for a fact. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, I guess -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: There are other that have if 18 y ou don't. 19 MR. FLY: Yes. So in a class of product. 20 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we could do a two-part 21 t est where it is some percentage of basic models, but 22 i t is capped based on how many units you ship each year

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 210 1 s o that if you ship -- I don't even know what a 2 r easonable number is -- 3 MR. FLY: Yes. The problem is -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: -- 10,000 units, it won't go 5 o ver some number and if it's under -- 6 MR. FLY: Well, they do want -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I was going to say -- 8 MR. FLY: -- because of -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, not even like -- 10 MR. FLY: -- proprietary information. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Buckets, not even like large 12 b uckets. 13 MR. FLY: If I gave you large buckets, I 14 w ould be -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, technically -- 16 MR. EISNER: There could be another measure 17 t hat would work. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 19 MS. DANE: At the beginning, didn't we define 20 f amilies of CRE? I mean, I assumed that was -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Substantiation classes. 22 MS. DANE: Okay. So wouldn't those same

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 211 1 s ubstantiation classes at least work for CRE that we 2 c ould work on that, you know, work from that point 3 b ecause, like everybody else, we're going to have lots 4 o f basic models, too? So we would like to find a way 5 t o take the basic models and be able to group them into 6 l arger groups and make the selection from there. And, 7 l ike I said, as we explain the programs we now belong 8 t o, you know, where the selection is random, you would 9 s till get your verification testing that you would be 10 c omfortable with because still everything is open to 11 y ou picking. It's just the number of things you feel 12 y ou have to pick because of the program we are in. 13 MR. FLY: One thing we can look at, though, 14 t hat you will have is how many basic models do we have 15 l isted with you within a product class. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, I mean, those are 17 t he two terms in our regs; right? 18 MR. FLY: Right. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: You hit it right on the head: 20 the product class and -- 21 MR. FLY: Class -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- then basic model.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 212 1 MR. FLY: -- which is the ASRAE division 2 b asically at 90 points more or less. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right now at least, yes. 4 MR. FLY: Right. 5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik with AHRI. Let 6 m e suggest an alternative approach. You have I think 7 t hree critical factors. The first one is how many 8 A EDMs you have, you know, how many AEDMs you have, how 9 m any basic models you have, and what's in the AEDMs. 10 T hey're going to cover the model families and make over 11 a ll your model families. They may cover two in one 12 A EDM. They might cover two in another AEDM, whatever. 13 A nd then maybe the last question is, okay. So 14 m anufacturers won't give you their shipment 15 i nformation, but it seems to me, let's say, the average 16 a nnual business of that particular product is a factor. 17 As an example -- and this is going to be 18 a bsurd. Okay. Let's say we were talking about 19 c ommercial water heaters. And let's say that DOE was 20 a ware that there were 20 manufacturers in the 21 c ommercial water heater business. Okay? And the 22 a nnual sales of commercial water heaters was 20,000.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 213 1 O kay? That becomes to me part of the factor because it 2 s uggests nobody is making a lot of commercial water 3 h eaters, not if you have 20 people in the business. 4 A nd, again, you know, I'm not sure if everybody would 5 b e -- you know, whether that is reasonable or not, but 6 s ome indication of, let's call it, the annual level of 7 b usiness of the product to me becomes a factor in how 8 m any you need to test. 9 I mean, you know, again, if the whole 10 i ndustry is only making 20,000 and, let's say, that 11 e ncompasses 2,000 models, well, how many of those do 12 y ou really need to test? I mean, those things need to 13 b e considered, as opposed to the case let's say you had 14 a business that was pumping out 2 million and you had 15 t he same 2,000 basic models. Now that is a whole 16 d ifferent situation. 17 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly again. I think we 18 o ught to consider some kind of limitations for a number 19 o f classes per product and lab, one way that you can 20 g et to part of that, you know. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 22 MR. FLY: You know, product class is a bigger

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214 1 g roup than the basic model group, quite a bit bigger 2 g roup than a basic model group, but it's not as big as 3 t he basic model, which could be -- depending on whether 4 I want to offer two evaporator coils in my five-ton or 5 t hree evaporator coils in my five-ton, all of a sudden, 6 I have refreeze it. Every time I offer another 7 e vaporator coil, I double the number of tests I have to 8 d o if you're doing it on basic models. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, but you're saying so 10 l ike we have a product class right now that is 65 to 11 1 35 for us, for commercial HVAC. 12 MR. FLY: They may not have something to -- 13 MS. HOOTMAN: So you're saying that there's 14 l ike a cap. You have X amount or percentage, but then 15 t here's a cap for that particular product class. 16 MR. FLY: Class. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: That might be without going 18 i nto -- and I understand what you're getting at, Frank, 19 w ith market size, but I am just -- who are they going 20 t o use for the market statistics? And where are they 21 g oing to get them? 22 MR. FLY: Well, in your example, if you had

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 215 1 2 0 people making them and 20,000 water heaters, one guy 2 c ould be making 18,000 of them. 3 MR. EISNER: Is this something we should put 4 u p on the screen to look at? 5 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I'd like to 6 t ake a different -- make a suggestion of an alternative 7 a pproach. I hate giving any credit at all to AHRI, and 8 t hey know it. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: But we'll note it. 10 MR. SACHS: But, on the other hand, what I am 11 h earing is echoes of what I think I would have heard 12 f or 40 years as their various sections had fought among 13 e ach other and between each other about are you guys 14 b eing too lax relative to the standards we have set for 15 o ur sides as we compete? And it seems to me that our 16 n ull hypothesis might be that they have about the right 17 n umber and we ought to figure out where it is wrong or 18 t hey have about the right numbers. If we can't figure 19 o ut what is wrong, why don't we just use theirs for 20 v erification? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think anyone is 22 o pposed to necessarily using that balance. It's that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 216 1 w e have agreed to a different term. 2 MR. SACHS: In terms of basic model. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So how do you translate the 4 n umber, the appropriate number, to the term? And it 5 c ould be that there is not a one-to-one translation 6 b ecause it is different for every manufacturer. In 7 o ther words, we're getting -- and maybe we need another 8 t erm. I don't know the answer. It may be that we need 9

- - but how do you define that term such that we know 10 t hat percentage is being met? 11 MR. SACHS: Okay. I may have gotten ahead of 12 m yself for praising AHRI. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I don't think anyone is 14 n ecessarily saying we need to do more or less or what 15 t hey're doing isn't working. We're just trying to 16 u nderstand what it is that you do. And given all of 17 t he progress we have made, how does that then apply in 18 o ur regs? 19 MR. SACHS: I will climb back into my cave. 20 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with Rheem. I 21 t hink you bring up a good point. And I think AHRI has 22 s ome information on how the different sections define

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 217 1 b asic model group, which is that we're trying to get 2 f rom basic model to some other term to make sure the 3 p rogram - - maybe it's certification group, for lack of 4 a better term. Maybe we invent a new term here. But 5 w e have definitions for basic model group. And they 6 a re different between sections on how those -- because 7 t he products are different. And so I don't know if we 8 c an share that. 9 (Simultaneous discussion.) 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: He did. 11 MS. MEYERS: All right. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: He sent it around. And 13 t hat's what we looked at. I mean, and I'm not opposed 14 t o it necessarily, but, remember, when we went through 15 b asic models, especially for HVAC, part of this like 16 g uidance and stuff like that was to incorporate a lot 17 o f what you guys are using for basic model group into 18 o ur regs. So I am wondering, is it necessary? Do we 19 n eed another term? Does it cause more confusion? 20 B ecause, remember, we already have substantiation class 21 a nd equipment class and basic model. Do we need just 22 f or the percentage? I don't know the answer. I'm just

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 218 1 s aying I want to be careful with the number of terms 2 b ecause I know in the past, that has been a lot of 3 w here the confusion has -- 4 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. There 5 i s no question if we compare the basic model definition 6 t hat we have agreed to here -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 8 MR. AMRANE: -- versus the basic model group 9 d efinition, that you are going to end up with many more 10 b asic models than you have basic model groups. So at 11 l east, you know, if you use basic model as a way to 12 t est product, then you will have to test, not test at 13 2 0 percent because we do it today within AHRI, but what 14 t hat number is going to be, we don't know. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what we're trying to 16 r econcile; right? 17 MR. AMRANE: I mean, they're going to be -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it's like if somebody 19 s ays -- say I'm a manufacturer and DOE says, "Hey, 20 A shley Manufacturing Facility, I want to know that you 21 t ested or someone has raised a question as to whether 22 y ou are really testing your five percent or not. Show

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 219 1 m e your data." Well, how does DOE or anyone else, for 2 t hat matter, have a way to say, you know, that's how 3 t hey should have added up to their five percent and 4 t hey did or they did not? That's where we're going 5 h ere. 6 MS. MEYERS: I think for some product 7 c lasses, you are going to need a new term. In other 8 p ro duct classes, you are not going to need a new term. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And maybe the point of this 10 i s we break off in our little groups and come back next 11 t ime or this afternoon or tomorrow or whatever with a 12 p roposal after we think about it. 13 MS. MEYERS: Yes. I think that's what you 14 n eed to do because for HVAC, it's going to be a lot 15 m ore complicated than commercial water heaters. 16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. The 17 i ssue here is going to be that we have new definitions 18 n ow for basic model. 19 MS. MEYERS: I know. 20 MR. AMRANE: Manufacturers don't know now how 21 t his is going to work out, I mean, how many of those 22 b asic models they are going to have. So if we are

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 220 1 t alking about addressing those issues in two meetings 2 o r one or I don't know how many meetings we have, three 3 m ore meetings -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: Not a lot. 5 MR. AMRANE: Not a lot. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a problem. 7 MR. AMRANE: It's going to be very difficult. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know. 9 MR. AMRANE: So I don't know, then. It has 10 t o weigh. And maybe a better way would be to separate 11 t his issue from the rest and discuss in a different 12 v enue. I don't know. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We can table it. I 14 m ean, if you guys want to talk among yourselves and see 15 i f we can come up with something. We just need a way 16 t o say, you know, if you're not a member of AHRI, if 17 y ou are, you know, this is how you should be grouping 18 y our models, period. And to qualify for this program, 19 y ou need to test X number of models. I don't know at 20 t his point if DOE has an opinion on the grouping is, 21 w hat it should be called, or what the right number is. 22 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. Is DOE

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 221 1 i n general satisfied with the amount of testing that 2 A HRI is moving in products? 3 MS. BARHYDT: I have no sense of how much. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was about to say I don't 5 t hink we know what that is. 6 MR. FLY: Okay. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: You know, Karim circulated -- 8 a nd it's not to say that it's a lot or a little, but I 9 t hink Karim circulated the definitions. And that's 10 g reat, but what does that equate to in real terms? 11 MR. FLY: Right. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Like what does that mean for 13 y our products? So what does that mean for her 14 p roducts? What does that mean annually? 15 MR. FLY: And that's the reason I kind of 16 w anted to tie things back to the product classes 17 b ecause most of us have an "N/A" product family. I 18 h ate to throw that term out from a marketing term in a 19 p roduct family. We have a five-ton. We have a seven20 t on. We have a ten- ton, you know. And those are the 21 b asic model groups today. And for somebody that is 22 b uilding fairly simple units, they might have three

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 222 1 u nits in that product class. For somebody that builds 2 s omething with a lot of options and a lot of variety, 3 t hey might have 20 units in that class. And that 4 d oesn't mean that they're selling 20 times more than or 5 7 times more than the other guy. It's not. It's just 6 t hat we're serving a little different market. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So is this one maybe 8 w e should table and see if you guys can talk? 9 MS. BARHYDT: Or do you all want to use some 10 t ime this afternoon to break up into groups? What 11 w ould work best? 12 MR. EISNER: It's about time for a break. Go 13 a head, Wes. 14 MR. WOSTAL: Along the lines of -- and I 15 m issed last week's meeting. So forgive me if I say 16 s omething that was discussed or ask a question about 17 s omething that I should know. But along the lines of 18 w hat Karim was saying just a few minutes ago, it is 19 g oing to be difficult for everybody to really know 20 u ntil we have to put together, you know, almost entered 21 a ll of our models into this system. 22 And I think, as I understood, there was some

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 223 1 d iscussion about that AHRI was asking for an 18-month 2 e xtension after this final -- after the working group 3 i s finished here. And at one point, there was a 4 c ompromise thrown out that if we were to say, instead 5 o f going to 18 months, we went with 18, but that 12 6 m onths would be the time period that everybody would 7 h ave to get all of their data submitted to DOE and then 8 t he final 6 months would be -- after 6 months passed, 9 a fter the first 12 was when DOE would start enforcing 10 a nd testing. If we want to go down that path after the 11 1 2 months, when everybody had all of their products 12 e ntered into DOE, we would have a much better 13 u nderstanding of how many basic models there are and 14 j ust where we stand and would it be good to then 15 e valuate what percentage should be tested or is that 16 j ust a bad suggestion? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that's kind of up to you 18 g uys around the room. You wanted to address 19 v erification programs and the Department approved a 20 v erification program for a long time. If you want to 21 p ut it on hold for a year or two, that's up to you. 22 But in the interim --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 224 1 MR. FLY: You are going to do an assessment 2 t est. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a current assumption. 4 MR. FLY: So you are going to do more 5 a ssessment testing than you would in another program 6 m aybe or not. 7 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I 8 g uess what I am saying is that we would need time to 9 c ome up with a right number. I don't think in two 10 h ours or whatever, it is going to do it. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 12 MR. AMRANE: Okay? So, you know, I don't 13 w ant to rush something if at the end of the day it is 14 n ot going to be fair or it's not going to be -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 16 MR. AMRANE: So I don't know. If we can do 17 i t, great, but, again, the time frame here is getting 18 s horter and shorter and I am not sure. 19 MR. EISNER: And we're putting a lot off. 20 Y ou've got three more days of meetings -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes. 22 MR. EISNER: -- three more meetings.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 225 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I knew you were going to get 2

- - 3 MR. EISNER: Let's take a 10 or 15-minute 4 b reak. You know, you have gotten so close. Think about 5 w hether we have to think about an extension, a brief 6 e xtension. Think about whether we can get this 7 r easonably done in three days, three meeting days, and 8 d o it right. And let's talk about it a little bit more 9 w hen we get back from the break. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. One other thing before 11 w e break. This is Bob Whitwell. So, you know, even 12 b efore we can figure out how many basic models we have, 13 w e still have the motor issue to resolve; right, 14 b ecause if we can go ahead with the approach we talked 15 a bout and we come to a simple solution for how the 16 w orst power is determined on the small motors, maybe we 17 k now we can figure out now what the number of basic 18 m odels are. But until we have that finalized, I'm not 19 s ure we can say for sure how that is going to impact 20 u s, unfortunately. Okay. 21 MR. SACHS: Neil, if I could ask you a 22 q uestion? Let's assume that we don't resolve this

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 226 1 q uestion and we agree that we don't resolve it now in 2 t his process. That would mean I am really asking 3 A shley and Laura this. It would mean that there would 4 b e a rulemaking on the issue of numbers of products and 5 v erification testing at some later time. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Can we split it? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: There could be. There 8 d oesn't have -- 9 MR. SACHS: And what are the alternatives? 10 MR. EISNER: The alternatives are that they 11 c an write their own rule on this issue outside of this 12 m eeting group or we can extend the time and probably 13 w ork it out in this group or they can just ask for 14 c omments and we ought to be done, which would just 15 d elay the implementation. 16 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. This is a very 17 i mportant issue. So I want this issue to be discussed, 18 b ut I am saying that maybe the three meetings that we 19 h ave will not be enough. And maybe we should move 20 t hat. Maybe it will mean that we handle this issue 21 o utside and have more time for it. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it might be that one

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 227 1 s uggestion would be as we get closer to the end, all 2 t he stuff we have packaged and voted on and agreed on 3 w e pass to ASRAC, get the cert stuff squared away, get 4 t he basic model stuff squared away, get the enforcement 5 g uidance stuff squared away, get the test procedure 6 g uidance stuff squared away, get the date issue squared 7 a way that's looming, and then you ask ASRAC to extend 8 t he working group's meeting time for verification 9 p rograms. 10 MR. EISNER: Based on my experience, I think 11 y ou are going forward with a very good message. You're 12 s aying we've got whatever it is, 80 percent or 90 13 p ercent, of it done. Ashley will start writing it. We 14 w ill meet sometime in September or whenever and resolve 15 t he remaining issues that can then be added to the 16 d ocument. Ashley will have it all done and ready. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we start in September. 18 MR. EISNER: Everybody take 10 minutes, 12 19 m inutes. Let's come back. 20 (Whereupon, there was a brief recess.) 21 MR. EISNER: Can everybody take their seat? 22 W hy don't we take some time, whatever it takes, to talk

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 228 1 a bout scheduling and timing in terms of getting all of 2 t his done? It looks like from talking to some of you, 3 t here is agreement that we cannot get it done by the 4 e nd of August, but that we can get a significant amount 5 o f it done, send that forward, and ask for an extension 6 o f the Committee to look at the other stuff. And 7 d epending on the success with the remaining issues, DOE 8 a t least can start drafting, if not issue, a rule on 9 e verything but verification, for example. Do people 10 h ave any thoughts on this, what they would like to do, 11 w hat they think is reasonable, how long we might have 12 t o seek an extension, whether we should start setting 13 s ome meetings up for September, in addition to the one 14 m eeting we have scheduled? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: My question is, what is exactly 16 l eft yet to do? 17 MR. EISNER: Well, I know one big issue we 18 d iscussed last time was the scheduling -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 20 MR. EISNER: -- and all put together with 6, 21 1 2, et cetera, months. We have to talk about that 22 b ecause everybody wanted to think about that. We have

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 229 1 m otors to talk about and trying to -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. I meant like new 3 e nforcements out there, what else says enforcement? 4 MS. BARHYDT: So with respect to 5 v erification, it seems to me like we have a lot of 6 i ssues still to talk about, I mean, if you look at the 7 s lides and all the different questions. And we need to 8 a ddress all of those. And I don't think any of them 9 a re going to be particularly easy, fast issues. And so 10 m y feeling is that we want to do this right, and it is 11 g oing to take some time to do it right. 12 MR. EISNER: Again, my sense as a neutral in 13 t his is that I would feel very comfortable in reporting 14 t o the ASHRAE that we had made significant progress, we 15 h ad significant consensus, one that people thought was 16 g oing to be attainable by this time or easily 17 a ttainable by this time. So I would think that they 18 w ould grant an extension, considering the success, 19 e specially because in the worst scenario, they would 20 i ssue a separate rule with everything but verification 21 a nd that they would have made significant progress and 22 t hat could move ahead while we continue to work on

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 230 1 v erification. 2 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. And 3 t hat is fine. Just to clarify, I was not asking that 4 t his issue be removed from the scope of this working 5 g roup. I think that this working group should 6 r econvene and continue to work and deliver it, whatever 7 y ou have, by the end of the month, but then this issue 8 h as to be discussed. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. We're not -- 10 MS. MEYERS: So is that a given that this 11 w orking group would be extended or is that still up to 12 A SHRAC or would a new working group be formed? 13 MR. EISNER: It's up to ASRAC. 14 MS. BARHYDT: It's up to ASRAC. 15 MR. EISNER: And let me stress to Karim and 16 o thers that we have already talked about how we might 17 b e able to at least expedite the process a little. He, 18 f or example, would like to make available to his 19 m embers, members of his group, all of the information 20 t hat is here or at least enough information so they 21 k now what we're talking about, they don't have to see 22 e very note and every little thing but that the stuff we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 231 1 h ave agreed on, make it available. We could talk about 2 t hat. And you and I talked a little bit. You don't 3 s ee a problem in making them publicly available. That 4 m ight help you to communicate with others if you need 5 t o communicate. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: In a way, it has already been 7 p ublic through these things. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Right, exactly. 9 MR. AMRANE: Right, but still the documents 10 t oday, there are only four members of this committee. 11 A t least the access to the SharePoint is only four 12 m embers of this Committee. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 14 MR. AMRANE: So if it is public, then it 15 s hould be public. And everybody should have access to 16 t he documents as we have access to them, too. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 18 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts? Other comments? 19 MR. KOJAK: Yes. I got an email cancelling 20 t he next meeting. Did anybody else get that? 21 MS. BARHYDT: That's the 21st meeting. We 22 t alked about that at several meetings, that there's no

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 232 1 2 1st meeting. 2 MR. EISNER: You are not invited. There 3 n ever was a meeting. 4 MR. KOJAK: Actually, I booked a vacation 5 d uring that time anyway. So I can't be here. 6 MR. EISNER: You wouldn't be going to Alaska, 7 w ould you? 8 MR. KOJAK: No. Mexico. 9 MR. MYERS: The meeting following -- 10 MR. EISNER: Yes, the very end of August. 11 A nd there is one scheduled for the 26th and 27th of 12 S eptember. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Well, the 26th. We only 14 r eserved one day there. 15 MR. EISNER: Right. So, you know, one of the 16 q uestions is whether ASRAC will be happy with this, but 17 w hat we can do is if we agree we want to proceed this 18 w ay, we could start talking about a draft report to 19 A SRAC on our status. I wouldn't suggest submitting it 20 u ntil we have had our next, tomorrow's, meeting at 21 l east. And if we want to wait until the one at the end 22 o f August to see how much progress we have made, at

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 233 1 l east we will have a draft report ready to go. 2 MR. STEPHENS: I think it is really important 3 f or us to go back through what we have so far. There 4 h ave been a lot of issues that we have said we need to 5 r evisit that pending future decisions we are going to 6 m ake. 7 Now we have met the majority of those. So we 8 r eally need to go back and scrub this before it goes to 9 A SRAC. 10 MR. EISNER: Yes. And, as I recall, one of 11 t he discussions consistently throughout the agreements 12 w as the implementation schedule is very important to 13 o ur agreement on all of these slides. You guys had a 14 g ood presentation that you made at the last day of the 15 l ast meeting. So we need to continue that discussion, 16 I think. 17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I did 18 w ant to say just by acclimation that I think this group 19 s hould -- we have worked well together. We certainly 20 h ave our differences. But we work well together. And 21 I think this group should be negotiating the 22 v erification process, not a separate group. So to the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 234 1 d egree that that has any impact on ASRAC's 2 d etermination, I think there is a commitment from this 3 g roup to get it done. And they're looking out for the 4 i ndustry's interests. And I'd like to see this group 5 n egotiate that part of the rulemaking. 6 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. I'll 7 j ust echo what Frank said. If it is not this group, 8 t hen I would not want a new group to come in and start 9 n egotiating that point who hasn't had the history. So 10 i f that is a possibility, then I would disagree with 11 t he path that we just outlined, doing a report and 12 a sking for an extension. I would rather us, you know, 13 d o 18-hour days to get through it; if it is a 14 p ossibility that it would not be this group, you know, 15 d oing that part of the negotiation. So that is a key 16 p oint, so much happening there, but, you know, I do 17 t hink it is an important point. 18 MR. EISNER: You know, it may be easier for 19 m e as a neutral who has been through a number of 20 n egotiated rulemakings than for Laura and the other DOE 21 p eople who address this directly. I would be shocked 22 i f the full Advisory Committee said no to any of this.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 235 1 I think they would agree based on the progress that we 2 s hould continue to negotiate that we should be the ones 3 t o negotiate all of the subjects. I can't guarantee 4 t hat, just as she can't, but I would be shocked if they 5 w ould disagree with your decisions. We should get this 6 d one and get it done right. They would probably be 7 v ery happy to hear that you all want to stay in the 8 r oom together with everybody else and do this. 9 MR. MYERS: That's a different question. 10 We want to get it done. 11 MR. EISNER: Okay. Well, then why don't we 12 g o ahead and start? We'll start thinking about the 13 d etails. The one thing I think we might want to talk 14 a bout now is meeting dates in September. We have got 15 o ne for the 26th, as I said. Maybe we should talk 16 a bout extending that to the 27th. No. We can't do it 17 u ntil the 27th? 18 MR. STEPHENS: It's not showing yet on the 19 T eamspace. 20 MR. EISNER: No. It was never put on there, 21 b ut it was something we agreed. All right. Let's just 22 r eopen it a different way. Laura can check. We have

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 236 1 g ot to make sure rooms are available. Let Laura and 2 o thers check overnight. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Actually, I have the rooms. 4 H old on. 5 MR. EISNER: Okay. 6 MR. STEPHENS: The week of the 23rd through 7 2 6th is the CSA Standards week in Cleveland. 8 MS. BARHYDT: What were the dates? 9 MR. STEPHENS: The 23rd through the 26th. So 10

- - 11 MALE SPEAKER: Of September? 12 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 13 MR. THARP: Yes. We had already booked 14 S eptember 26th. Is that right? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 16 MR. THARP: Actually, I would mark that the 17 2 5th and the 26th. 18 MS. MEYERS: No. The 25th is -- 19 MALE SPEAKER: Government Affairs Committee. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Government Affairs. I had the 21 2 6th marked. 22 MR. AMRANE: The 26th is on the calendar.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 237 1 MR. EISNER: What dates do you have that we 2 m ight be able to do? 3 MS. BARHYDT: So the nice room over in 4 F orrestal is available the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 16th, 5 a nd 20th. 6 MR. EISNER: The 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 16th, 7 a nd 20th? And what day of the week is the third? 8 MR. HON: The 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th is a holiday 9 w eek. 10 MALE SPEAKER: The 3rd is a Tuesday. 11 MS. MEYERS: Tuesday. Thursday after Labor 12 D ay. 13 MR. EISNER: Would that week be out 14 c ompletely or would the 5th and the 6th, Thursday and 15 F riday? 16 MR. THARP: I think the 3rd and 4th there is 17 g oing to be a potential AHRI 210/240 rewrite. That's 18 t he tentative date for that. 19 MR. MYERS: Could that be adjusted to make 20 r oom for this group? 21 MS. MEYERS: Since most people have the 26th 22 o n their calendars, can we have it at an alternate

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 238 1 l ocation? 2 MS. BARHYDT: On the 25th? 3 MS. MEYERS: On the 26th. 4 MS. BARHYDT: We have the room reserved on 5 t he 26th. 6 MS. MEYERS: Oh. Okay. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. That was already booked 8 t o us. This is -- 9 MR. EISNER: But not on the 25th or the 27th. 10 MS. BARHYDT: The 27th will be a Friday. 11 MS. MEYERS: The 27th I will not be here. 12 MS. BARHYDT: The 25th if we got another, a 13 d ifferent room. I only have the availability of that 14 r oom. 15 MR. EISNER: Let me ask this again. Maybe we 16 s hould give ourselves until tomorrow to finalize this. 17 M aybe some of the people who have Washington 18 h eadquarters can look at whether they have got a room 19 t hat is available. 20 MR. THARP: Can AHRI do a link and everybody 21 r eply tonight? 22 MR. AMRANE: They can do a link.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 239 1 MS. BARHYDT: Wait. So the 25th won't work? 2 O kay. 3 MS. MEYERS: We've got the 26th. 4 MALE SPEAKER: What about the 27th? 5 MS. MEYERS: But Laura can't get the 27th. 6 (Simultaneous discussion.) 7 MS. MEYERS: I could -- 8 MR. EISNER: Can everybody do the 25th and 9 2 6th or did I hear somebody had a problem with -- 10 MR. AMRANE: That will not work for AHRI 11 f olks. 12 MR. EISNER: What about earlier dates in 13 S eptember? Is there a week? Like Labor Day week is 14 n ot good. What about the second week? What is the 15 M onday on the second week? 16 MS. DANE: The 9th. 17 MR. EISNER: All right. The 9th through the 18 e nd of the week? 19 MS. BARHYDT: Can anybody do the 9th through 20 t he 11th? 21 MR. EISNER: Okay. The 9th through the 11th? 22 MS. BARHYDT: We will try and find a room.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 240 1 A nd if not, we will probably ask for -- 2 MS. MEYERS: Yes. The 10th several of us are 3

- - 4 MS. BARHYDT: -- assistance in helping find 5 r ooms. 6 MR. STANONIK: The 10th is the URC. 7 MS. MEYERS: Yes. So several of us are busy 8 o n the 10th but the 11th. So the 11th would be -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: The 11th, 12th, 13th. 10 MS. MEYERS: The 13th would be awesome. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Not the 13th. 12 MR. EISNER: Because it is so hard to find 13 d ates in September, if we could do three days, would 14 t hat be okay? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. We'll figure something 16 o ut. 17 MR. EISNER: All right. Let's work on it 18 o vernight and see what we can do tomorrow. Pardon? 19 MR. MYERS: The week of the 16th. 20 MS. MEYERS: That's -- 21 MR. MYERS: The 17th, 18th, and 19th is a CEE 22

- -

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 241 1 MS. MEYERS: -- CEE conference in Atlanta. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Where is that? 3 MS. MEYERS: Atlanta. 4 MS. BARHYDT: So I think I will mention that 5 A HRI was going to be meeting possibly the 3rd and 4th. 6 MR. AMRANE: That was just Rusty. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Just Rusty. 8 MR. THARP: Ashley Armstrong is coming to 9 t hat, though. 10 MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say the 5th and 11 6 th and save you a trip. 12 MR. MYERS: Did I hear 4, 5, and 6? I think 13 w e were here. 14 MR. EISNER: What about more days the end of 15 A ugust also if we're already going to be here -- what 16 i s it? -- the 25th and 26th? 17 MS. MEYERS: We have the 26th. All right? 18 A re we talking about -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: He's talking about August. 20 MR. EISNER: August. I mean, could we meet 21 m ore days? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh. Can you add more to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 242 1 t hat? 2 MR. EISNER: Can we add another day to that? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: What are we expecting? 4 MR. EISNER: Well, we were expecting you to 5 h ave a draft of the rule for everybody to look at 6 e ither the end of August or very early September. 7 MS. BARHYDT: What were the dates? The -- 8 MR. EISNER: I forget. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: August 26th and 27th. 10 MALE SPEAKER: Sometime the week of the 29th. 11 MR. EISNER: Of August? 12 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. 13 MS. MEYERS: Yes, but you had a problem -- 14 MR. EISNER: I'm out. I'm out from a week 15 f rom this Thursday. I'm out for a week, whatever dates 16 t hose are. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So August is available and the 18 4 th all around. Are the 19th, 20th, 23rd, 29th, and 19 3 0th? 20 MS. MEYERS: Nineteenth, 20th? 21 MS. BARHYDT: Nineteen, 20, 23, 29, and 30. 22 MR. EISNER: You will probably get a lot of

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 243 1 r ooms on the Hill. Nobody is going to be there. 2 MR. SACHS: Neil is out. Several of the rest 3 o f us are out for vacations the week of the 19th 4 t hrough 23rd. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Exactly. 6 MS. MEYERS: So is the proposal to meet the 7 2 6th, the 27th, and then the 29th? 8 MR. EISNER: What day of the week is the 9 2 6th? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Monday, Monday-Tuesday. Then 11 s kip Wednesday. Then do the 29th. 12 MR. SACHS: I'd rather do 27, 29, and 30. 13 MS. BARHYDT: What's wrong with the 28th? 14 MS. MEYERS: You said you didn't have a room. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Oh. Well, we can try. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, worst case scenario, 17 w e can always do this. 18 MS. MEYERS: That's fine with me. The 28th 19 i s great. 20 (Simultaneous discussion.) 21 MR. EISNER: All right. So spend some time 22 o vernight seeing what is available.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 244 1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 2 MR. EISNER: All right. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So it sounds like no dates work 4 a ll the way around the table. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: When is ASRAC? 6 MS. MEYERS: What happened to the September 7 1 1th? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Why can't we do the first week 9 i n September? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Labor Day. 11 MR. MYERS: Labor Day is Monday. 12 (Simultaneous discussion.) 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to do a poll and 14 w e'll just go from there? 15 (Chorus of "Yes.") 16 MS. MEYERS: Was the 11th a problem for some 17 p eople? 18 MR. EISNER: The 11th of September? 19 MS. BARHYDT: I have no idea. 20 MR. EISNER: No? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we need two days? Do we 22 n eed like more regular multiple --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 245 1 MS. BARHYDT: I hate to do three days. 2 MR. HURST: If we did the whole week of the 3 2 6th, it would force us to operate. 4 (Simultaneous discussion.) 5 MR. EISNER: We can go from 8:00 in the 6 m orning until 6:00 at night? 7 MS. BARHYDT: There you go. 8 MS. MEYERS: What is your suggestion? 9 MR. HURST: The week of the 26th through the 10 3 0th. 11 FEMALE SPEAKER: Five days? We really like 12 w orking together. 13 FEMALE SPEAKER: Do you like working on 14 S aturday and Sunday? 15 MR. HURST: No. I'm talking August. 16 MR. EISNER: What week? 17 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, in August. Okay. 18 MR. HURST: August 26th through 28th. We're 19 a lready here. Just extend it and get it done unless 20 y ou all just love being -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: The outstanding issues, 22 r eally, can you guys answer them by then?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 246 1 MS. DANE: There is a phone call arranged on, 2 I want to say, the 21st. So, I mean, CRE will be 3 t alking. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 5 MS. DANE: I can't speak for the other 6 g roups. 7 MR. MYERS: Karim had indicated earlier it 8 m ight take more than a month to get -- 9 MR. AMRANE: I mean, it is simple. If you 10 a ccept the AHRI definition, we can do it right away. 11 MR. AMRANE: But you don't like the AHRI 12 d efinition. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think what we're telling 14 y ou is we have no necessarily issues with it to the 15 e xtent we understand what it is. 16 MR. TRITSIS: It won't take much time for us 17 t o explain to you. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: What does it mean? Sorry. 19 L ike numbers-wise, what does it mean? How many 20 n umbers? 21 MR. TRITSIS: I'll give you over -- for the 22 r egulated commercial products, that's over 650 tests --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 247 1 o kay? -- right now that -- probably more. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, I think that's 3 w hat we're asking, though. If you guys want to at the 4 n ext meeting present this is the AHRI -- this is what 5 t hese definitions translate to in terms of products, 6 n umber of manufacturers or number of -- different 7 t hings that we have been talking about -- 8 MR. HURST: Can I see it? Isn't there just 9 k ind of an educational meeting where you guys 10 u nderstand what it is they do today? I mean -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We need to be able to write a 12 d efinition in regs that cover it across the board 13 r egardless. 14 MR. HURST: Right. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, even if we say, "The 16 A HRI program is great," what does that mean, though? 17 MR. HURST: You have to understand. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 19 MR. HURST: So an educational session where 20 y ou understand kind of the metrics around the program 21

- - 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 248 1 MR. HURST: -- what is involved in it. I 2 d on't think that's a 30-person meeting or if it's a -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's up to you 4 g uys. I guarantee there are probably people in the room 5 t hat want to hear it. And you can elect to come in 6 p erson or not. But I think that's where we're -- I 7 m ean, if that is what you want us to do, if that is the 8 n ext step, then 9

- - 10 MR. AMRANE: That's fine. We can prepare 11 s omething like that. But at the same time, if DOE is 12 t hinking of one definition for everything -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, no. It can be product14 s pecific. I don't think we have said that; right? I 15 t hink we are open. It's just, what does that mean by 16 " product-safe"? I mean, what does it mean for CRE? 17 W hat does it mean for -- and how do we translate that 18 t o a small manufacturer or someone that doesn't 19 p articipate in AHRI but might want to and somebody -- 20 y ou see? I mean, that's where we're looking. We have 21 t o be straight across the board. They may be product22 s pecific definitions or case-specific, but it has to be

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 249 1 a pplicable to all. In other words, we have to be able 2 t o draw a line in the sand and say, "They have met it. 3 T hey have not," one way or the other. 4 MR. AMRANE: Yes. It will be done. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we see just trying to -- I 6 m ean, we see the percentage, and we see what is in your 7 m anuals. And we appreciate you sending all of that 8 s tuff out, but what does that mean in real terms? 9 MR. HON: Does Neil have to be at this one? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's up to Neil. 11 MR. EISNER: It's more up to the group. 12 MS. BARHYDT: It's up to you guys. 13 MR. HON: Yes. If not, we can go on the week 14 o f the 21st, the 19th through the 23rd. 15 MS. MEYERS: Of August? 16 MR. HON: Yes. 17 MS. MEYERS: That's going to be a really 18 e xpensive ticket. 19 MALE SPEAKER: I would a lot rather do it the 20 2 6th. 21 MR. EISNER: I think some other people said 22 t hey were out that week also.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 250 1 MR. SACHS: I'm out that week. 2 MALE SPEAKER: Me, too. 3 MS. MEYERS: The week of the 26th? 4 MR. EISNER: Then it's unanimous. 5 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we could add the 28th. 6 MALE SPEAKER: August? 7 MS. MEYERS: Of August or September? 8 MS. BARHYDT: August. Sorry. Let's do that 9 a nd make 9/11 a fallback date. 10 MR. EISNER: We could start later that day or 11 I could probably be here by 11:30 or 12:00. 12 MR. MYERS: Should we add the 29th as well? 13 MR. EISNER: I can do the whole rest of the 14 w eek. I can do the whole week except for that morning. 15 MS. BARHYDT: So do you want to put September 16 1 1th possibility on the schedule as well? 17 FEMALE SPEAKER: I think we should. That 18 w ould be good. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Just one day? Do you want to 20 f ly in for one day? 21 FEMALE SPEAKER: I'll already be here. 22 (Simultaneous discussion.)

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 251 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So 26th through 29th, 11th 2 t hrough 13th? 3 MR. WHITWELL: I can probably -- 4 MS. MEYERS: I can't do the 13th. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can your other half come? 6 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. 7 MS. MEYERS: I can do 11th, 12th, but not the 8 1 3th. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Let's ask him. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: He has got a meeting on the 11 1 0th, too. He has to be out. 12 MS. MEYERS: He's got a meeting on the 10th, 13 t oo. 14 MR. WHITWELL: He has a meeting on the 12th? 15 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So we should probably 18 w ait until -- well, you can be here. I have to be at 19 t he other -- 20 MS. MEYERS: But you're saying we should 21 a void -- 22 MALE SPEAKER: We can come up with one day,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 252 1 t hough. 2 MS. MEYERS: So on the 12th, the full ASRAC 3 m eeting that is happening, is it an all-day meeting? 4 A nd would it be something where the second half of the 5 d ay we could give them a committee? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. You are ASRAC. 7 MS. BARHYDT: We are the reason for the 8 m eeting, I think. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 10 MS. BARHYDT: No? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. You're not the only 12 r eason. You are part of the reason. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: You are on the agenda. It is 15 n ot an all-day thing. It is going to be half-day, 1:00 16 t o 5:00. There is a variety of issues. And 17 t echnically your ASRAC members are supposed to brief 18 t he ASRAC committee. Well, you are his -- 19 MR. WHITWELL: I have been talking to him. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So Manny (ph) is the one who 21 i s supposed to brief the ASRAC committee. 22 MS. MEYERS: So if we did the 11th and then -

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 253 1

- 2 MS. BARHYDT: The morning of the 12th? 3 MS. MEYERS: -- 8:00 to 12:00 on the 12th. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And for those who wanted to 5 s tay and participate in the briefing to the full ASRAC 6 c ommittee, you could stay and join them at 1:00. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Now, that being said, 8 t ypically we would have provided the materials that 9 t his Committee has voted out to ASRAC prior to the 10 1 1th. That is not to stop progress, but that is so 11 t hat ASRAC can vote on the 12th for DOE to go ahead and 12 t ake action. So I would recommend the 26th, the 27th, 13 a nd whatever other days. Push as much through as you 14 c an, recognizing that there are outstanding issues, you 15 a re making great progress. Keep it going but vote out 16 a s much as possible at that point so that some of what 17 y ou need, especially the dates and the certs and the 18 b asic models and the guidance issues and anything we 19 h ave can go ahead and get reviewed by ASRAC and voted 20 o n at that meeting, instead of having to set up another 21 A SRAC meeting afterwards. 22 MR. BAUMAN: Are you talking about the 9th-

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 254 1 1 0th of September? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Typically, we send materials 3 a bout a week in advance. That is not to say they have 4 t o be sent a week in advance, although I'm sure they 5 w ould appreciate them depending on how detailed, you 6 k now, the package is going to be. 7 MR. EISNER: So what are we talking about 8 n ow? This is the 10th and 11th? The 9th and 10th? 9 T hree days? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So let's talk about the 26th11 2 7th is a definite. Are we doing the 28th? 12 MR. EISNER: If everybody wants to do the 13 2 8th and they want to do the whole week, I will see if 14 I can change that meeting, but right now I have a 15 p roblem in the morning changing the appointment. I can 16 c all, but that is going to be very hard unless there 17 a re some openings. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we will do the 28th. And 19 i f you can make it, Neil, great, but if you can't, 20 t hat's okay, too. 21 MR. MYERS: Earlier I heard -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: Does everybody agree with that?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 255 1 MR. MYERS: -- the acclimation around the 2 t able was the 29th. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: I am trying to think flight4 w ise here. What are we saying? We would do it -- 5 FEMALE SPEAKER: Well, we had also talked 6 a bout potentially the 29th. How many days -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: All four days? 8 MR. EISNER: Yes. 9 MALE SPEAKER: Way too much. 10 MR. HON: I'm tired of being in airports. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't like you guys that 12 m uch. 13 (Simultaneous discussion.) 14 MALE SPEAKER: Some of us are flying halfway 15 a cross the country. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Exactly. 17 MR. EISNER: How many people object to doing 18 f our days? Let's take a vote. 19 MR. DOPPEL: If you object, raise your hand. 20 MR. EISNER: To doing four days? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Four? I'll do three. 22 MR. EISNER: Three is -- are you the third

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 256 1 o ne saying no? Okay. We've got three saying no. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Three saying no to four days? 3 MR. EISNER: Three saying no to four days. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think we ever have 5 t his for days. 6 MR. FLY: Simple majority? 7 MR. EISNER: I think we're getting to the 8 p oint where people want to be here. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 10 MR. EISNER: They feel strongly about it. 11 MR. DOPPEL: We have a fourth one on that. 12 MR. EISNER: Oh, we have a fourth. Okay. So 13 t he 26th through the 29th of September. 14 MR. DOPPEL: Twenty-eighth. 15 MR. EISNER: Twenty-sixth through 28th. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I would say we keep the 17 2 9th only because if Neil can come the 29th, then you 18 c an vote out any issues on the 28th. If those that 19 w ant to go home on the 28th go home on the 28th, then 20 c all in or whatever -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: The issue is spending four 22 d ays on this because, I mean, my company is in the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 257 1 m iddle of our planning process. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I know. So it's more up to 4 y ou. Do you want to come back in September? 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 6 MR. AMRANE: We will be done by -- 7 MR. EISNER: So what dates are we -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or is it just incentive to 9 g et done by the 28th? 10 MR. HURST: September we had the 11th; right? 11 S o no. I'm sorry. Yes. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. September we have the 13 1 1th and the morning of the 12th. 14 MR. WHITWELL: So I could call in the -- I 15 h ave an appointment first thing on Monday, or on the 16 1 1th. I have to be out. I could call in the rest of 17 t he day. The 12th I have something just before noon. 18 S o I would have to call in those two days and miss some 19 o f it, then. 20 MR. STANONIK: You could send John. 21 MR. WHITWELL: John will be here, I guess; 22 r ight? He'll be here on the --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 258 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: He's supposed to be here on 2 t he 12th. 3 MR. WHITWELL: On the 12th, yes. 4 MS. MEYERS: He's supposed to be here on the 5 1 0th. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, this is good for him. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, it's good for John. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Somebody just let him know 9 h is schedule, please. 10 MR. HURST: All in favor of -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: Aye. 12 MR. SACHS: Be careful what you ask for. 13 MR. WHITWELL: I hope he's not on the phone. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Whether he will or not. 15 (Simultaneous discussion.) 16 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank. Given that -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I think that, too. 18 MR. EISNER: Do we have agreement on -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Twenty-sixth, 27th, 28th. 20 MR. EISNER: -- on September -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Tenth, 11th, 12th? 22 MR. EISNER: No. I thought people said --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 259 1 MR. STANONIK: Eleventh, 12th. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Eleventh, 12th. Okay. 3 MR. STANONIK: Eleventh, morning of the 12th. 4 MALE SPEAKER: I can't make the 11th. 5 MR. SACHS: Well, that makes it easier. 6 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. What is it 7 t hat we're trying to accomplish with the 11th? It's 8 t he day before ASRAC. We will have wrung out three 9 m ore days. If we're going to use the AHRI definitions 10 a nd grab something around that, then maybe we can 11 f inish. But if we're not able to use, we find that 12 w e're not able to use, the AHRI, there needs to be more 13 t ime to get more information from AHRI members before 14 w e pile back into this. I am just wondering, is there 15 r eally a need for the day before ASRAC to be the next 16 m eeting after the 28th. 17 MS. BARHYDT: It was the day that people were 18 a vailable. And there are still a lot of issues to 19 d iscuss. 20 MR. HON: I think we will fill them. 21 MS. BARHYDT: I do, too. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, even if we don't do,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 260 1 y ou know, percentage of models, we need to talk about 2 h ow you choose models, what type of information -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Exactly. There's still a lot. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- when you send information, 5 w hen DOE gets notified, what happens. There's a lot of 6 i ssues outside of just the percentage that we need to 7 c ycle through. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: What happens with these models 9 i n -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: We might all agree and blow 11 t hrough it in an hour, but something tells me that just 12 h asn't happened yet. We will eventually agree, though. 13 MR. MYERS: If we're going to make another 14 t rip to D.C. from all points, didn't we want to try and 15 g et at least two days in: the 10th and the 11th? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's what we said; 17 r ight? 18 MS. BARHYDT: No. The 11th and 12th. People 19 s aid they couldn't do 10. 20 MR. MYERS: So a day and a half since the -- 21 (Simultaneous discussion.) 22 MR. EISNER: As I understand it, people have

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 261 1 s erious problems with the 10th and they have problems 2 w ith the 13th. So it can only be 11 and a half a day 3 o n the 12th. Is that true? I mean, there is another 4 m eeting on the 10th. I am not sure what the problem is 5 w ith the 13th. 6 (Simultaneous discussion.) 7 MR. HURST: Could we do a full day on the 8 1 2th? 9 MR. EISNER: Why a half a day on the 12th? 10 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe John can be here. 11 MR. EISNER: All right. All right. 12 E verybody is getting unruly. I'm going to have to 13 s tart fining people. 14 MR. WHITWELL: I'll tell John he's got to be 15 h ere. 16 MS. MEYERS: What I thought was that some of 17 u s may want to attend the ASRAC meeting, where they're 18 g oing to be talking so if they had a question we could 19 a nswer. 20 MR. WHITWELL: So we would really be here for 21 t wo days. We just wouldn't be in this -- 22 MS. MEYERS: That was the thought process.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 262 1 N ow, I don't know whether -- 2 MS. BARHYDT: We don't have to go. We could 3 m eet all day. 4 MR. HURST: Who out of this group would have 5 t o be at the other meeting, would have to be? 6 FEMALE SPEAKER: Ashley. 7 MR. HURST: Ashley? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I do. 9 MS. MEYERS: Me. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Me and Manny have to be 11 t here. 12 MR. EISNER: But how long is the ASRAC 13 m eeting for? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Four hours, but this is -- 15 MR. EISNER: It's just in the afternoon? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is only a small portion 17 o f the agenda. 18 MS. MEYERS: So that's a good point. Maybe 19 w e could move this to the first of their agenda. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what we did last time. 21 MS. MEYERS: And then if we had other issues 22 t o work on, then we could then leave and go work on

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 263 1 t hem. And plan on being here until 5:00 that day. 2 MR. HURST: Maybe 1:00 or 2:00 and then we're 3 b ack finishing up whatever. 4 MR. EISNER: Yes. We could take lunch from 5 1 :00 to 2:00. You guys just do without lunch. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I've got to be there, no 7 m atter what. So whatever you guys want to do. 8 MR. MYERS: Have we lost too many to do the 9 1 0th as well? 10 MR. HURST: Yes. 11 MS. MEYERS: Yes. 12 MR. HURST: Who won't be here on the 10th? 13 (Hands raised.) 14 MR. HURST: I won't. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I won't. Rheem won't. John 16 w on't. 17 MR. HURST: Rusty. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Rusty won't. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's the HRI guys. 20 MR. EISNER: All right. So go with the 11th 21 a nd a full day on the 12th of September? 22 MR. HURST: Yes.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 264 1 MR. HON: How long do we -- when do we 2 a djourn? 3 MS. BARHYDT: The 11th will be 6:00 o'clock. 4 T he 12th will be 3:00 unless you guys want to go a full 5 d ay. You will want to go a full day. I mean, people 6 a re talking about a full day, but -- 7 MR. HON: I just need to know for flights. 8 MS. BARHYDT: I understand that. 9 MS. MEYERS: Could we start earlier on the 10 1 1th or does that really mess up a lot of people? 11 MS. BARHYDT: 8:00? 12 MR. EISNER: A lot of people said they were 13 c oming in on one day and going home early on the other 14 d ay. 15 MR. HURST: Is the logic starting at 10:00 so 16 p eople can fly in that day? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 18 MR. EISNER: That was the understanding. 19 MR. HURST: Some of us, that doesn't really - 20

- I mean, I come here and I sit in the hotel until 21 9 :30. 22 MS. MEYERS: This is the last meeting. We

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 265 1 c an make an exception and start at 8:00 that day, I 2 g uess. 3 MR. HURST: I could because I'm here anyway. 4 Y ou can't get from the middle of the country here for 5

- - 6 MR. EISNER: Do we want to go 8:00 to 6:00 7 b oth days. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not the only one. Bob and 9 J eff. 10 MR. WHITWELL: I can't make it. I won't be 11 h ere the 11th in the morning anyway. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, man. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So 8:00 to 6:00 both days? 14 MR. EISNER: Is that okay? 15 MS. MEYERS: Yes. 16 MR. EISNER: Anybody object to that? 17 MR. WHITWELL: So we're talking the 11th and 18 1 2th? 19 MR. EISNER: Eleventh to 12th, 8:00 -- 20 (Simultaneous discussion.) 21 MR. WHITWELL: 8:00 to 6:00? 22 MR. MYERS: 8:00 to 5:00 will still allow --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 266 1 (Simultaneous discussion.) 2 MR. STANONIK: You won't miss much the last 3 h our. 4 MS. MEYERS: Exactly. 5 MR. EISNER: Okay. Are we all in agreement? 6 W e got a few more days out of this? Maybe it will be 7 e nough to get through all of it because we get into -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: We have four more days. 9 MR. EISNER: Four more days. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Because we added the 28th and 11 2 9th and the 11th and 12th. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We added the 29th? 13 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, I thought we did. 14 MR. BALLO: What hours are we meeting in 15 A ugust, that three-day stretch? Is it 8:00 to 6:00 or 16

- - 17 MS. BARHYDT: At least on the middle days. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: When you say, "middle days," 19 w hat do you mean? 20 MR. EISNER: Well, do you want to fly in late 21 o n the 26th, start at 10:00 on the 26th, and go until 22 6 :00 every day of the week, start 8:00, and make the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 267 1 o thers 8:00 to 6:00 also, 10:00 to 6:00 the first day? 2 MR. KOJAK: What dates are -- 3 MR. EISNER: August the 26th to the 28th. Do 4 w e want to go from 8:00 to 6:00 each day that we're 5 h ere in August, the end of August, or do we want to 6 m ake it 10:00 to 6:00 the first day? 7 MR. WHITWELL: 10:00 to 6:00 the first day 8 MR. HURST: 10:00 to 6:00. 9 MR. WHITWELL: 10:00 to 6:00 the first day, 10 y es. 11 MR. HURST: And then 8:30 to 6:00. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: 8:30? 13 MR. EISNER: 8:30. 14 (Simultaneous discussion.) 15 MR. EISNER: All right. So September also 16 m ake it 8:30 to 6:00? 17 MALE SPEAKER: 8:00 to 6:00. 18 MS. MEYERS: See, now that messes up -- 19 MR. EISNER: And then dinner at John's house? 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Only one. I'm eating out. 21 MR. EISNER: All right. So here's what I've 22 g ot: August the 26th to the 28th, first day 10:00 to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 268 1 6 :00, the next two days 8:30 to 6:00; September 11th 2 t hrough the 12th, both days will be 8:30 to 6:00. 3 MS. BARHYDT: And are we meeting the 29th or 4 n ot? 5 MALE SPEAKER: No. 6 MS. BARHYDT: No? 7 MR. EISNER: No. They didn't want to do four 8 d ays. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, that's right. 10 MALE SPEAKER: The 11th is 8:00 to 6:00? 11 MS. MEYERS: So we'll go out and correct our 12 c alendars and all that kind of stuff. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Pretty please? 14 MS. MEYERS: Please? If you would just get 15 u s the Outlook calendar update, that will -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: And keep in mind that also 17 t he HVAC manufacturers will see a Doodle poll for a 18 m otors meeting. 19 MS. MEYERS: Okay. And a boiler meeting. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: A boiler webinar. We need to 21 t alk through some issues for boilers before they -- 22 MS. MEYERS: I'm a little --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 269 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. A boiler webinar? 2 O kay. 3 MS. MEYERS: I'm a little sketchy on that 4 o ne. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Like an hour or so? It won't 6 t ake long. Well, I have hope. 7 (Simultaneous discussion.) 8 MR. EISNER: Here's my suggestion. Some 9 p eople are questioning whether they can get flights out 10 o f here the night when we go to 6:00. So why don't we 11 l eave it at 6:00. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: There's a lot of us who can't 13 g et out of here. 14 MR. EISNER: Check flights. See what is the 15 l atest flight you can get on? We can always adjust and 16 t hen divide or something like that if we have to. 17 MR. WHITWELL: I have a 6:40 or a 10:40. 18 MR. EISNER: So we can go with 9:00. We just 19 k eep -- 20 MR. HURST: Suck it up. 21 MR. WHITWELL: The last time on my 6:40 22 f light, I went to Philadelphia. Then they sent me back

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 270 1 h ere to Washington to fly from here to Syracuse on the 2 1 0:40 that left at 12:00 o'clock midnight. 3 MR. HURST: We're going to start handing out 4 A SRAC ribbons. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 6 MR. EISNER: All right. Frank? 7 MR. MYERS: Did you end up adding a day to 8 t he 26th? 9 MR. WHITWELL: I got a couple of exercise -- 10 MR. EISNER: August 26th, '7th, and 28th. 11 MR. MYERS: You're talking about September 12 t he 26th? 13 MS. MEYERS: No. 14 MR. EISNER: No. 15 MS. MEYERS: We did not. 16 MR. EISNER: Because we couldn't do the day 17 b efore and we couldn't do the day after. All we could 18 d o was one day at the end of September. 19 MR. MYERS: I would certainly love to take a 20 l ook at perhaps the first week of October or something 21 w here we can get in more than one day. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just cancelled the 26th for

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 271 1 n ow. And if we need to pick up an October date we will 2 a t next time's meeting. 3 MS. BARHYDT: It's on the calendar. It's 4 b een on the calendar. I mean, you can always call us. 5 MR. MYERS: It's just that it's one day. 6 (Simultaneous discussion.) 7 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any more on time and 8 d ates and everything? 9 MR. KOJAK: So between the 12th and the 26th, 10 w e have no meeting? 11 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 12 MR. EISNER: So that one-day meeting on the 13 2 6th of September we're going to leave open for at 14 l east a one-day meeting? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I propose not to, but -- 16 MR. HON: It's after ASRAC. So what's the 17 d ifference? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I was going to say I would 19 p ick a date where you -- if the status is there are 20 s till a lot of issues, I would pick a different date 21 w here you can come for multiple days, even if it moves 22 t o October. I mean, at that point, ASRAC has already

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 272 1 m et. You are going to get the extension to keep 2 m oving. You might as well 3 MR. EISNER: And we're talking about, 4 r emember, also next week trying to set up a meeting 5 w ith the motor manufacturers. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I've got that. We'll 7 s end out the dutiful -- 8 MR. FLY: So you said we're not meeting in -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. The 26th is -- 10 MR. FLY: The 26th of September. 11 MS. MEYERS: That's the tentative date that 12 w e voted that we -- 13 MR. BALLO: Jeremiah, I hope you've got this 14 a ll straight. 15 MR. EISNER: Even if he doesn't, we have to 16 l ive with whatever he sends out. 17 MR. BALLO: We need an email tonight. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Don't worry. The transcript 19 h as it. 20 MR. BALLO: When is that coming out? 21 MR. EISNER: All right. Back to substance. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 273 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I thought we were done. 2 MR. WHITWELL: I'm ready to go until 9:00 3 o 'clock. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: You and Laura can go until 5 9 :00 o'clock. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Get this done. 7 MALE SPEAKER: You've got a flight at 10:40. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, 10:40, maybe midnight. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we're going to hold 10 o ff on how much testing. Let's talk about how units 11 a re actually selected for testing. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, this is -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: And if you look at -- actually, 14 g o to the next slide down, that one, yes. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it's different 16 c oncepts, though. 17 MS. BARHYDT: I know they are, but I think 18 t his one makes a lot more sense to discuss first. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Go ahead. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So where should the units be 21 o btained for testing? Again, we're talking about built 22 t o stock or in stock.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 274 1 MR. EISNER: Just to be clear, we're talking 2 a bout verification. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Verification testing. 4 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. If 5 w e're talking verification testing, it seems to me the 6 f irst choice should be from the manufacturer, whether 7 i t's from their stock or what they just built two hours 8 a go or whatever, but everything else is just an 9 u nnecessary complication, including cost. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So there could be a 11 h ierarchy; right? I mean, it could be that, you know, 12 t his is your first priority. You should get it from 13 h ere. If you can't get it from here, you get it from 14 h ere. If you can't get it from there, you get it from 15 t here. 16 MR. BALLO: What does it mean "if you can't 17 g et it"? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not available. 19 MR. THARP: That's basically the way the 20 p rogram works. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. So let me describe 22 s omething that might happen. An HRI program when we

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 275 1 h ave a built- to-order, I mean, a product for stock, we 2 h ave it in various stocking locations. We might 3 l iterally have it in the discontinued and it's no 4 l onger made it to manufacture but it's out there in 5 i nventory. So it could be selected. 6 So she's right. You go to the manufacturer. 7 A nd we're not making it anymore, but we'll tell you 8 t hat we have it in XYZ warehouse in wherever that is. 9 S o you'd have to go out and get it from the warehouse 10 i f it's still available, you know, in that case or 11 d iscontinues. 12 Some of those warehouses are company-owned. 13 S ome are independent distribution in my case. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. One of 15 t he things that I think we need to resolve is how we 16 d efine discontinued product versus obsolete products 17 b ecause we can no longer be in manufacturing, 18 m anufacturing the products, but they're still somewhere 19 i n our supply chain. So we need to have a good 20 u nderstanding of that. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: It's a good point. 22 MR. THARP: And that's a good point because

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 276 1 i n AHRI, as long as the manufacturer still considers 2 i t's in their inventory, then it's subject to 3 v erification. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: It's still subject to 5 v erification. 6 MR. THARP: Right. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: It's considered a discontinued. 8 MR. THARP: Right. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: We discontinued the product 10 l ine, but we still have stuff out in inventory. 11 MR. THARP: And there is a default of once 12 y ou tell HRI you're no longer producing it, it's 13 a vailable for 12 months. And then the rating goes away 14

- - 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 16 MR. THARP: -- unless you tell me -- 17 MALE SPEAKER: How about the ratings? 18 MR. THARP: The rating will always be 19 a vailable, but it won't be verified. You cannot get an 20 A HRI certificate on a product that has been removed 21 f rom the directory. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So DOE's definition of

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 277 1 d iscontinued is that he manufacturer is no longer 2 m aking it and it is no longer in stock with the 3 m anufacturer or the private labeler. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: In their possession. 5 MS. BARHYDT: In their possession. So there 6 m ay be stuff, plenty of stuff, out in the marketplace, 7 a lthough I don't know how much that would happen with 8 t hese products, but it's no longer under the control of 9 t he manufacturer, basically. So if you no longer have 10 a ny units and you are no longer making it, as far as 11 D OE is concerned, it is discontinued. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: And I would say that's an 13 o bsolete -- 14 MR. KLEISS: That is terminology. That is 15 n ot 100 percent true that -- in discontinuing a product 16 l ine, sometimes we still have some residual inventory 17 i n stock. 18 MS. BARHYDT: And if you are offering it for 19 s ale, it is not discontinued under DOE's definition. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 21 MR. AMRANE: Same as HRI. 22 MS. BARHYDT: My understanding is that it is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 278 1 n ot the same as HRI. 2 MR. STANONIK: It is not. Discontinued just 3 m eans you won't make it. 4 MR. AMRANE: You won't make any more. 5 MR. STANONIK: Right. You may have some, but 6 t hat -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We have different 8 d efinitions here. We know we have different 9 d efinitions. 10 MR. STEPHENS: Could we include your 11 d efinition in this just so that -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: So people can see it? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Put it on the board so that 15 e veryone has that. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do the definition. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Manufacturer or private 18 l abeling. Just include it. 19 MR. STEPHENS: So how do you define no longer 20 i n manufacture or private labeler stock? Because 21 s everal manufacturers have warehouses across the 22 c ountry. If it's --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 279 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is it your warehouse? Is it 2 y our own to your facility? 3 MR. STEPHENS: Some manufacturers, yes; some 4 m anufacturers, no. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that answer is different 6 d epending on yes or no. 7 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. So if there is one left 8 a nd it's in southern California and the manufacturer's 9 l ocation is in northern Minn., do we still have to ship 10 i t back? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you own the distribution 12 l ocation? 13 MR. HON: Do you still own product? 14 MS. BARHYDT: So the definition is the 15 m anufacturer is no longer making it and it is no longer 16 b eing offered for sale by the manufacturer or private 17 l abeler. 18 MS. MEYERS: So how does DOE consider a 19 p roduct that the manufacturer is no longer making but 20 t hey still have it in stock. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Are you offering it for sale? 22 MR. FLY: Yes.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 280 1 MS. BARHYDT: It is not discontinued. 2 MR. FLY: And that unit has an economizer on 3 i t. 4 MR. SACHS: And it is painted baby blue. 5 MALE SPEAKER: And a coated coil. 6 MR. FLY: And a coated coil. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's okay. With Rusty's 8 n ew position on coated coils, you know -- 9 MR. BALLO: Just to be clear, though, if DOE 10 o r somebody is sort of going through the list of 11 p roducts that are on the list to be verified and if 12 i t's known that the manufacturer has stopped production 13 o f that model -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We wouldn't know. 15 MR. BALLO: -- you wouldn't identify that one 16 a s a priority for verification testing. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the real answer is we 18 h ave the term "discontinued." We don't necessarily 19 k now when production has stopped. So we could add 20 t hat. We could add another code and say, "Production 21 h as stopped but not discontinued." And so we would 22 t hen know the differentiation. And odds are, you know,

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 281 1 I don't know what we would target. We don't have, you 2 k now -- 3 MS. MEYERS: I mean, we have some like old 4 i nventory in stock. You know, we may not have built 5 o ne of these units for years. 6 MR. HURST: We welcome you to buy it and test 7 i t. 8 MS. MEYERS: We would love for you to buy it 9 a nd test it, but it is really discontinued. But, you 10 k now, we have old inventory. It's a bigger deal on the 11 r esidential side, of course, but, you know, you may 12 f ind something with a date code in our inventory of 13 f our years old. 14 MR. FLY: Mark Fly with AAON. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the real answer is -- 16 MR. FLY: Are we talking verification or 17 a ssessment testing? 18 MR. EISNER: Verification. 19 MR. FLY: Verification; right? So they 20 w ouldn't -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're spot checking, period. 22 S omeone is spot-checking it. At the moment, we're not

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 282 1 d ifferentiating it. 2 MR. FLY: Also we were talking about before 3 s ome sampling. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 5 MS. MEYERS: So I think we need a new code or 6 a new definition for -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Could be. 8 MR. FLY: We're talking about your -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're talking about a 10 v erification program, period, whether it's DOE, whether 11 i t's done by somebody else, whether it's your own that 12 y ou're doing that's been approved by DOE. The concept 13 s hould be the same. 14 MR. SACHS: Ashley, this is Harvey. And my 15 c oncern would be that some rogue, certainly not present 16 h ere, decides on getting some complaints from wherever 17 i n the market to discontinue a product. You guys want 18 t o check it for its efficiency. I would like for you 19 t o be able to reach out and grab that product if it is 20 s till in commerce. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So this does -- well, what do 22 y ou mean by -- I was going to say this doesn't --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 283 1 MR. SACHS: This isn't -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- carry over to -- I mean, 3 i f we need to enforce against something, Laura is going 4 t o knock on her door. 5 MR. SACHS: So there is a differentiation 6 b etween verification and enforcement that I -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's random verification. 8 MR. SACHS: Okay. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what if you don't have a 10 c omplaint or what if we do? 11 MR. SACHS: Boy, that's two strikeouts today. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So one thing we could do is 13 r ight now in our certification reports, we have a D for 14 d iscontinued. We could do -- I don't know -- S for 15 s tocked or whatever. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: O for out of production. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yes. 19 MS. BARHYDT: O, out of production. I like 20 t hat. Okay. So we can put an O code in and we could 21 s ay in the verification program that anything that is O 22 i s not subject to the verification program. And, to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 284 1 a ddress your concern, we could say that anything that 2 i s not in a verification program is still subject to 3 a ssessment testing. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Assessment testing. 5 MS. BARHYDT: And then the Department could 6 j ust go get a unit and test it if it's something -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we needed to. 8 MS. BARHYDT: -- if we needed to. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes because you could get in 10 t heory -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: A complaint or whatever. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. And you could get in 13 t heory somebody who puts them out there and then two 14 m onths later says they're all out and keep kind of 15 d oing that kind of pattern. And then you would be 16 c onstantly stuck in not getting there. 17 MS. MEYERS: So to address my issue of old 18 i nventory -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be an O for you. So 20 t hey wouldn't be subject to verification, but DOE could 21 a sk you for one if we wanted to, helping you with -- 22 MS. MEYERS: But the issue is like some of

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 285 1 t hose, so it's an O for me, but you might still ask for 2 i t. Well, what if there had been a standard change or 3 a test procedure change or something from when that 4 u nit was built to today? So you're going to have to 5 k eep track. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So the standard that applies is 7 t he standard on date of manufacture. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 9 MR. SACHS: Except that there's this odd 10 s ituation that she's got old stock that she might be 11 a ble to export that she couldn't -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Better have a label on it. 13 MR. SACHS: -- commerce and it's past the 14 d ate. 15 MS. MEYERS: What do you mean I'd better have 16 a label on it? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Export only. 18 MS. MEYERS: But it may have become an export 19 o nly because we had an efficiency check. 20 MR. EISNER: Yes. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, with this new 22 p roduction, if it was built before the efficiency --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 286 1 MS. BARHYDT: You can still sell it. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. 3 MR. SACHS: You sell it until you sell it. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. You can sell -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: Sure. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- the inventory. 7 MR. EISNER: Right. Do it before the 8 s tandard change. 9 MS. MEYERS: It's regional standards. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't talk about that. 11 MR. WHITWELL: We don't have those in 12 c ommercial -- 13 MR. EISNER: That's in commercial. 14 MR. WHITWELL: -- ever. 15 MR. EISNER: It's a good idea. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Does that make sense to 17 e veryone? 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes as long as everyone -- if 19 s omeone is -- all of their product is not out of 20 p roduction. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. That's what I was trying 22 t o get, that description of somebody comes in for two

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 287 1 m onths, then turns into O's. And they're constantly 2 k ind of ending up with -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: They have to declare it on 4 t heir cert report. So if we see a manufacturer with 5 a ll O's, what do you think we're going to do? I'm 6 p retty sure we're going to ask them for a live unit and 7

- - 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, probably. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Come down hard on them. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right? So I think that is 11 g oing to be something that is going to be like "Hmmm." 12 MR. STEPHENS: So on the private branding of 13 u nits, do you go after the brander or the OEM? 14 MR. WHITWELL: It depends on who certified 15 i t. 16 MALE SPEAKER: It's whoever certifies; right? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: It depends on what happens. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. If it's noncompliant, the 19 p rivate labeler and the manufacturer technically -- 20 MS. MEYERS: What if you were the one who 21 c ertified it but the private labeler has it in 22 i nventory but you have stopped production on it?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 288 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it's not compliant? 2 MS. BARHYDT: You're saying which code do you 3 u se: a D or an O? 4 MS. MEYERS: Yes. So let's say I am private 5 b randing for someone but it has been discontinued but 6 t hey still have it in inventory. 7 MALE SPEAKER: It's in theirs? 8 MS. MEYERS: It's in their inventory but 9 w e're the one who certified it. So we don't have it in 10 i nventory. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're certifying it. 12 MS. MEYERS: Do you see what I'm saying? 13 MS. BARHYDT: No. I do. 14 MS. MEYERS: So how would that work? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think our expectation is 16 t hat you have a relationship with your private labeler 17 a nd you should know whether or not they are still 18 s elling it or not. 19 MALE SPEAKER: Work out commercially. 20 MS. MEYERS: I would have no idea, though. I 21 h ave not have any idea if they had an inventory. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Well, if they're still

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 289 1 o perating it for sale. So if the private labeler has 2 s ome in inventory but they are making plans to export 3 i t or get rid of it or whatever, it's not an issue. 4 I t's if they're offering it for sale. 5 MR. HURST: Same thing. If you have a 6 p roduct integrity issue where there was a safety issue, 7 y ou would inform your private labeler that you have a 8 s afety issue. If he didn't certify, he didn't pass the 9 e fficiency standard, you would notify that company that 10 y ou're not in compliance, I would think. 11 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. I think 12 i t's a little different in that, as Karen was 13 d escribing it, she had just received a request for that 14 u nit. And she doesn't have any, but the private 15 l abeler may. But she doesn't know what inventory the 16 p rivate labeler has. 17 MR. HURST: Right. 18 MR. MYERS: It may be compliant or not 19 c ompliant. They just wanted to test. And I know those 20 c ompanies we private label with, we sell them the 21 u nits. They're -- 22 MS. MEYERS: I would want them to have --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 290 1 MR. MYERS: We don't know anything about 2 t hat. 3 MS. MEYERS: I don't whether it's still in 4 i nventory. 5 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. There 6 i s a little difference here because at some point, 7 t here is going to be this DOE certification database. 8 A nd the regulations, if you don't remember, are going 9 t o require an annual report to DOE; right? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 11 MR. STANONIK: And so if that private labeler 12 i s still interested in making the world known that they 13 s till have the models, they're going to ask the 14 c ertifier to continue to list it. So every year, every 15 y ear, we're going to have to tell DOE whether the model 16 i z still on the market or whether it's been 17 d iscontinued or out, whatever. 18 So if the private labeler wants to continue 19 t o market the product or at least make the world aware 20 t hat it is marketing the product, there's going to have 21 t o be some communication between the private labeler 22 a nd the certifier who was the OEM as to what is the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 291 1 s tatus of that product for this year. Otherwise -- 2 MS. MEYERS: That's not how we do it today. 3 S o that could be a significant change. I'll have to 4 c heck with my sales department on that one because that 5 c ould be -- because I don't know if they would want to 6 e ven give me that information. 7 MR. STANONIK: Karen, I wasn't suggesting 8 t hat is how you do it today. I'm suggesting things are 9 c hanging. 10 MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar. 11 MS. MEYERS: And I would want to put that on 12 m y report assuming that the information they were 13 g iving me -- they might say, "Well, we don't have any 14 i nventory." And then I would have to be certifying that 15 w ith DOE because of what they gave me. And I would 16 h ave no way to check that. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can make them certify 18 t hemselves. 19 MS. MEYERS: Well, that is usually part of 20 t he whole -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, it goes to 22 a uthorities; right?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 292 1 MS. MEYERS: Yes. They may not be able to. 2 MR. WHITWELL: You're a customer. How are 3 t hey going to certify it unless you give them all of 4 t he data to "This is how we qualified it"? 5 MR. STEPHENS: I've just got to throw it out 6 t here because there might not be a 17-025 lab. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: You have to be certified to 9 b e at a third party facility. And you would be at 10 t heir -- 11 MS. MEYERS: They wouldn't have the test data 12 t o certify it themselves. So we would be certifying 13 i t. But sometime during the course of the year, the 14 u nit went out of production. But they may still have 15 i t in inventory, whether they would tell me that or not 16 b ecause it's not my inventory. So they're going to 17 h ave to report their numbers back to me so that I can 18 c ertify to 19 D OE -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Once a year. 21 MS. MEYERS: I'm uncomfortable having to 22 c ertify that number based upon their --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 293 1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I understand. 2 MS. MEYERS: You know, maybe they don't know. 3 I f it's a private labeler, they may have warehouses all 4 o ver the place. 5 MR. WHITWELL: So as the manufacturer, you 6 w ould put the O on your certification report. If DOE 7 w as still interested in testing that unit, that would 8 g o to the private labeler, which is part of the 9 c ertification. 10 MS. MEYERS: How would I ever know when you 11 c hange that O to a D? 12 MR. WHITWELL: I see your point. 13 MS. MEYERS: I would never know when they 14 c hanged it. I mean, think of a retail -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 16 MS. MEYERS: -- operation. I know this is 17 c ommercial -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: But retail -- 19 MS. MEYERS: -- but there are still some of 20 t hese units sold in that -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes. 22 MS. MEYERS: And you're talking something in

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 294 1 e very city. So I would never know when to do that. 2 MR. MYERS: This is Frank. If you put an O 3 o n it, they can still sell it. It just means it's out 4 o f production. It doesn't mean they can -- 5 MS. MEYERS: When do I change that to a D? 6 H ow would I ever know when to change that to a D? 7 MS. BARHYDT: So how about if we took out "or 8 p rivate labeler"? 9 MS. MEYERS: Period. 10 MR. MYERS: Works. If you're talking 11 i nventory control of the manufacturer, then the 12 m anufacturers can take full responsibility. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So then the manufacturer also 14 t akes full responsibility for certifying, which it 15 s ounds like you already do anyway, all labeled 16 p roducts, period. And then other requirements are based 17 o n what you know yourself. 18 MR. MYERS: And if not, then the private 19 l abeler would do it. 20 MR. WHITWELL: So that would mean that the 21 m anufacturer of the product must do the certification? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: We would amend the regs to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 295 1 g et rid of private labelers. I mean, private labeler - 2

- yes. 3 MS. BARHYDT: The regs already say the 4 m anufacturer bears the responsibility for 5 c ertification. 6 MR. STANONIK: I get them confused, but don't 7 t he regs also say that if you actually have the 8 c ircumstance where the private labeler was in the U.S. 9 market acting like the OEM because he had 10 a rranged for importation from some place? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: The manufacturer. 12 MR. STANONIK: That he's the manufacturer; 13 r ight. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, or they're modifying your 15 p roduct and they're reselling it to become a 16 m anufacturer. So it all comes back to manufacturing. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So then it is only you. You 18 w ould use your O. 19 MS. MEYERS: So the private labeler can no 20 l onger be the certifier. 21 MR. MYERS: Well, if they are, they're a 22 m anufacturer.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 296 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The manufacturer, period, is 2 r equired to certify. 3 MS. BARHYDT: So by making that change, it 4 b ecomes you are certifying as to whether you are 5 p roducing and you are certifying as to whether you are 6 s elling and you're not worried about what the private 7 l abeler is or is not doing. 8 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So just let me switch 9 h ats. Now I'm the private labeler. I'm also a 10 m anufacturer, but I'm a private labeler. And I want to 11 c ontrol. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 13 MS. MEYERS: So do other companies around the 14 t able agree, then, that a private labeler can never be 15 t he certifier of the equipment? That's what I'm 16 s truggling with. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: They can be if -- well, right 18 n ow under our regs, they're not -- they could be a 19 t hird party. Anybody can. 20 MS. BARHYDT: But they don't certify. A 21 t hird party is not a certifier. They're just a 22 s ubmitter.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 297 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. I agree. They 2 w ould be a submitter. 3 MR. THARP: Ashley, do you feature roles on 4 m anufacturer of import versus export? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: What was that? 6 MR. THARP: What if the company that produces 7 t he product on product only is an export, nondomestic 8 c ompany and who sells it, the private labeler, is a 9 d omestic company? Who is the manufacturer? 10 MS. BARHYDT: So a foreign OEM and a domestic 11 p rivate labeler. 12 MR. THARP: Right. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Who is the importer of record? 14 O ne of you is filing paperwork with Customs. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the person. 16 MS. BARHYDT: That's the person responsible. 17 A nd if it's like this third party person, guess what. 18 MR. WHITWELL: So where is that in the -- 19 MS. BARHYDT: It's all in the definition of 20 m anufacturer. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Four thirty-one. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, 431.2.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 298 1 MR. BALLO: It sounded like what you're 2 s aying is it's sometimes hard to identify who the 3 m anufacturer is. Is that -- 4 MALE SPEAKER: You've got to wake up. 5 MS. BARHYDT: We have our ways. 6 MR. KLEISS: I want to make sure that I 7 u nderstand what is going to be required of the 8 m anufacturer. On a simpler, not private label, 9 s ituation, we have a product family: Dixie. And we 10 d ecide to stop producing that product family. And we 11 h ave an inventory of, say, five different models within 12 t hat family. And gradually we are going to sell down 13 t hose models. So it is my -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: Family or basic model? 15 MR. KLEISS: Family is basic model. 16 MS. BARHYDT: I just want to make sure I 17 u nderstand what you're talking about. You have five 18 b asic models in the line? 19 MR. KLEISS: For the sake -- 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 21 MR. KLEISS: Well, do we even have to 22 d etermine individual model? Let's just for a second

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 299 1 s ay that it's about five basic models within this 2 p roduct family and we are going to be discontinuing or 3 w e have stopped producing that whole group of products. 4 A nd then gradually we are going to be depleting our 5 i nventory. Now, it is my responsibility as soon as we 6 s top production to -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Once a year on your report, -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: On your annual report. 9 MS. BARHYDT: -- on your annual report, you 10 r eport the status of that date as of that date. 11 MR. KLEISS: And that needs to be, the 12 p roduct selection that is made for verification testing 13 n eeds to be, done the day after that date? 14 MALE SPEAKER: Why? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We haven't discussed that. 16 MS. BARHYDT: We haven't discussed when the 17 s election would happen. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: In theory, it could be done 19 a ny day of the year. 20 MS. BARHYDT: So the responsibility, the 21 o bligation to mark things as I guess now O or D would 22 b e a once-a-year obligation. You are required to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 300 1 c ertify any new basic model prior to distribution in 2 c ommerce. So you may be adding things through the year, 3 b ut you only take stuff off once a year or you are only 4 r equired to. I mean, you can do it as often as you 5 w ant. 6 MR. KLEISS: But to select products that I 7 d on't have -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could tell us that. 9 MS. BARHYDT: You can tell us. 10 MR. KLEISS: After you select them, I can 11 t ell you I don't have them? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: If there's ever a case where 13

- - you could say it's O; right, "I'm no longer 14 m anufacturing it, but I'm still offering it for sale" 15 i f you're doing that. Right? And then it's just not 16 s ubject to a DOE- approved verification program, but 17 i t's still subject to DOE assessment testing if we 18 w anted to. 19 MR. EISNER: But if they tell you once a year 20 a nd they discontinued it on the 3rd of January and they 21 d on't tell you until next January, you don't know that 22 t hey discontinued it.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 301 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then they'll just say 2 i t's discontinued. And we'll say, "Okay. Here's the 3 n ext one." 4 MR. KLEISS: There's a problem with that, 5 t hough. If I don't want you to test a certain product, 6 I can just tell you, "Oh, we're not making that 7 a nymore." 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: And if you still are making 9 t hat product, then you'll get a different notice from 10 L aura, which is not a welcomed one. 11 MR. KLEISS: Yes. 12 MR. EISNER: Do you have an audit trail? 13 T hey go in and enter the information. They check the 14 b ox that it -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We do. 16 MS. BARHYDT: We can tell. 17 MR. EISNER: Do you have an audit trail -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 19 MR. EISNER: -- so you can see if they change 20 b ack and forth? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay. You guys are in trouble.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 302 1 MR. KLEISS: No. My concern is more of 2 r ecordkeeping and communication to you and controlling 3 t hat system on my end to make sure that I don't create 4 a problem. But then that system can also be abused. 5 O kay. It sounds like you all are comfortable with that 6 a nd the system will not be abused because you all are 7 g oing to handle that. I'm okay. 8 MR. EISNER: When they report to you, on 9 J anuary 1st, they report, January 2nd, they report to 10 y ou, and they intend to discontinue production on 11 F ebruary 1st. They don't tell you that. They just tell 12 y ou it's not discontinued. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They don't have to. 14 MR. EISNER: It's still manufactured -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: They can. 16 MR. EISNER: They could tell you? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: They don't have to. 18 MR. THARP: The manufacturer has the option 19 o n February 2nd, then, of changing it. 20 MR. EISNER: If they want. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 22 MR. EISNER: So they can go in any time they

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 303 1 w ant and change it? 2 MR. THARP: Go in anytime. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Twenty-four hours a day -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: They can change it any time 5 t hey want. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- every day of the year. 7 MALE SPEAKER: Unless the system is down for 8 m aintenance. 9 FEMALE SPEAKER: I don't think that's ever 10 h appened. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It has, but it -- 12 MALE SPEAKER: Which is where? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you are estimating your 14 C CMS report on Saturday night at 9:00 p.m. in the fall, 15 I 'm going to wonder what's, you know -- 16 MR. EISNER: Does your system go down more 17 t han the product goes down for maintenance? 18 MS. MEYERS: So I have one more example. So 19 l et's say I have a small manufacturer that has 20 d eveloped a specialized product for me but their lab 21 c apabilities to certify it is they want to use it, my 22 l ab, because I am the bigger guy, but I am the private

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 304 1 l abeler. 2 MR. STANONIK: So what's the question? 3 MS. MEYERS: So who is certifying the 4 p roduct? I mean, they are not using their -- 5 MR. STANONIK: Are they the OEM? Are they 6 t he OEM? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 8 MS. MEYERS: They are the OEM, but they don't 9 h ave a lab. So they're using my lab. 10 MS. BARHYDT: That's no different than paying 11 s omebody else to do the testing. 12 MS. MEYERS: Okay. 13 MR. STANONIK: DOE regulations -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's no different than you 15 d oing testing at -- 16 MR. STANONIK: Right. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- at his lab. 18 MR. STANONIK: Right. They're still 19 r esponsible. 20 MS. MEYERS: Got it. Okay. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we have no 22 r equirements as far as certification goes as to where

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 305 1 s omebody can test. 2 MR. WHITWELL: So explain to me again what 3 y ou said about imports. So in imports, it's not 4 n ecessarily the manufacturer. It's whoever gets the 5 i mport license? 6 MS. BARHYDT: By law, it is the manufacturer. 7 I t's just not manufacturer in the normal sense of the 8 w ord. It's the person who imports it. 9 MS. MEYERS: So the importer has to be the 10 m anufacturer responsible for the certification. 11 MR. HURST: So if you have a product you 12 b ring into the country that a manufacturer oversees by 13 h alf and you're going to bring in, you would be 14 t echnically the manufacturer. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Unless -- it depends. It 16 p robably depends on when it changes, when it legally 17 c hanges hands; right, I guess? It could be the -- 18 MS. MEYERS: Then they have you in under 19 t heir license and then sell it to us -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Then they have to certify it. 21 MS. MEYERS: The n they have to certify it. 22 MR. STEPHENS: What about preexisting

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 306 1 a greements that don't respond? 2 MS. BARHYDT: Such as? 3 MR. STEPHENS: Such as company A has an 4 a greement with company B from wherever else in the 5 w orld. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So B is somewhere else. 7 MR. STEPHENS: B is somewhere else. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MR. STEPHENS: That has an agreement already 10 e stablished so that it doesn't change hands until it is 11

- - company B imports it, brings it to the U.S., and it 12 c hanges hands after it arrives in the U.S. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Company A has done the 15 c ertification, provides the efficiencies. 16 MS. BARHYDT: So when you certify it, you are 17 a ctually going to certify it in a different way. They 18 n eed to provide DOE with a copy of a form that says, "I 19 a m authorizing company A to act on my behalf, to submit 20 m y certification." And you would fill out the form. 21 A nd you would fill out the certification report, and 22 y ou would submit it. But you would submit it as a

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 307 1 t hird party certifier on behalf -- third party 2 s ubmitter on behalf of company B. B is still the 3 m anufacturer. And they are responsible for that 4 c ertification. You just are filling out the paperwork 5 f or them. 6 MR. STEPHENS: Even if company A has done all 7 o f the testing? 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 9 MR. STEPHENS: Same as if you send it -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: And is marketing it and is 11 w arrantying it in the United States and if there was a 12 p roblem with consumer products and it had a fire, that 13 c ompany A is still the one responsible. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean it's different 15 i f it's not compliant. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. That is what I am saying. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Because private labelers are 18 r esponsible for the compliance as well as the 19 m anufacturer. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So both of you would be, but 21 w e're just talking about who files the paperwork unless 22 i t's --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 308 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 2 MS. BARHYDT: In every scenario, we will be 3 a ble to point to one person who was responsible for 4 f iling the paperwork. That was a big change, actually, 5 f rom the old certification requirements to the newer 6 c ertification requirements. It used to be the 7 m anufacturers and private labelers were both required 8 t o certify. And that caused so much duplication. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And confusion. 10 MS. BARHYDT: And confusion because everybody 11 t hought everyone else was doing it, and it was a real 12 m ess because you had multiple certifications for one 13 p roduct. 14 MS. MEYERS: Yes. I hear what you're saying. 15 I t makes sense. I think there are tax issues involved, 16 t hough, now because importer and manufacturer. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Because when the ownership of 18 i t happens and when import duties get -- 19 MS. MEYERS: Yes. 20 MS. BARHYDT: But we're not -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Like his example of the 22 a greement --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 309 1 MS. BARHYDT: -- suggesting that you should 2 t ake any particular -- 3 MR. HOOTMAN: -- of landed U.S. -- 4 MS. BARHYDT: -- approach. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We should see signs of 6 p aperwork. 7 MS. MEYERS: But I'm thinking the way we view 8 i t now may need to be revised. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And our contracts with 10 t hose suppliers need to be revised because it doesn't 11 s how that they're responsible for doing this. So there 12 a re lots of contracts I can think of that need to be 13 r evised. If it doesn't show it, his example -- 14 MR. EISNER: You mean changing the rule. 15 T hey're not changing the rule. This is by statute, I 16 t hink he said. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Well, not the certification 18 r equirement. It's not by statute. But the definition 19 o f who is the manufacturer is by statute. I mean, that 20 i s a legal requirement. And it's not a contractual 21 i ssue. I mean, EPCA makes the manufacturer the 22 i mporter. And that is one of the parties who is

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 310 1 r esponsible for the compliance of the product along 2 w ith the private labeler. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would say that a lot of 4 p eople don't know about our regs -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: A lot of people don't. We -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- generally. 7 THE REPORTER: One at a time, please. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: The contracts are not set up 9 t hat way. 10 MS. BARHYDT: We spend a huge amount of time 11 a nswering questions and working and trying to get -- 12 a nd working on outreach, but I would agree. I think 13 t here are a lot of foreign manufacturers who don't 14 r ealize or a lot of importers who don't realize. And 15 w e're working on that. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. So then I think you 17 g ave the example before something is made overseas but 18 b rought in and we do some modification to it here. 19 D oes that -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Then you become the 21 m anufacturer. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Then the U.S. person becomes

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 311 1 t he manufacturer of it. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: What do you consider 4 s ubstantially doing something to it? 5 MS. BARHYDT: If it is a modification that 6 i mpacts the energy performance. 7 MR. EISNER: Economizer? 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. If you slide in an 9 e conomizer. 10 (Simultaneous discussion.) 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, if you spray those 12 c oils. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: So slapping that name tag on it 14 i s not going to do it? 15 MR. WHITWELL: Or it could be hydraulic coil 16 i f you -- 17 MR. EISNER: I'm learning so much. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know what we were 19 t alking -- where were we? 20 MS. BARHYDT: I don't know how we -- 21 MR. EISNER: Do we have a definition here we 22 w ant to vote on to go into the rule?

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 312 1 MS. BARHYDT: Do you want to vote today or do 2 y ou want to just work through material or -- 3 MR. EISNER: I mean, is this something 4 e verybody agrees to and we can say it unanimous on the 5 b ottom? 6 MR. WHITWELL: Well, we need to see the rest 7 o f the definitions first. 8 MS. DANE: I would like to see all of the 9 d efinitions. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 11 MR. EISNER: How many more are there like 12 t his? 13 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: What definition are you 15 l ooking for? 16 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. I mean, we 17 s tarted to list the definitions. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good for you. 19 MR. WHITWELL: I am waiting to see if there 20 a re more. 21 MR. EISNER: We ought to tag this in some way 22 s o we --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 313 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: This came about because we 2 w ere talking about should there be a hierarchy to 3 o btaining products. In other words, if something is 4 o ffered at a retail location, which is not common for 5 t his but does happen, should there be retail first, 6 t hen distributor, then this? I don't know what the 7 a nswer is. I am just making up things. And then 8 e ventually if it has to be built to order, you know, 9 w hat does that mean or if it's coming off the 10 p roduction line, you know, I think that's where we're 11 g oing for this. 12 And then we decided that the O, we need to 13 k now when it's no longer in production. So we added 14 t he O and a definition of that. So getting that to it, 15 i t's that - - or should it just be -- go back to where 16 y ou were. No. Go left. Go left. 17 MS. DANE: Wouldn't the answer to that 18 q uestion, that definition, come to whether we're 19 a llowed to use our third party test house programs that 20 w e have already spoken so highly of? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Well, I think that's 22 i t. I mean, if we say a DOE-approved verification

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 314 1 p rogram, whether it be a third party program you're 2 a lready using, your own program that you decide to 3 d esign and apply for, whatever this DOE-approved 4 p rogram is, you know, would have -- and maybe it's just 5 t hat they need to write down what their selection 6 p rocess is. But should there be certain guidelines for 7 i t or requirements such that people are doing it the 8 s ame way? I guess that is the question. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe this isn't the time 10 t o bring it up, but one of those you have got listed 11 t here is "Supplied by distributor." And so these are 12 f or verification, which means that the manufacturer is 13 s upplying the product or paying for the product. So if 14 y ou go to a distributor, it is going to cost us more 15 t han if we just supply it from our stock. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: You've got to buy it back. 17 MR. WHITWELL: We've got to buy it back. 18 I t's going to be a markup. So I would say I would not 19 b e in favor of that. 20 MR. EISNER: Why do you need that in there? 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Why do you need it, I 22 m ean, if you can get it from the manufacturer or from

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 315 1 t he manufacturer in -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's out of your possession. 3 MR. STEPHENS: If you're talking your spot 4 c heck, then -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes. 6 MR. STEPHENS: If we're talking -- 7 MR. WHITWELL: If we're talking verification, 8 t hen I would take "Supplied by distributor" out. 9 MR. STEPHENS: And "Retail off the shelf" 10 a lso. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: In both cases, you would be 12 b uying it back. 13 MR. WHITWELL: "Retail off the shelf" as 14 w ell, right. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: What if it was a distributor 17 o wned by you? 18 MR. WHITWELL: There is still a markup. 19 T here is still a markup because it's another step in 20 t he chain. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 316 1 MR. WHITWELL: And they've got to cover their 2 c osts. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, you couldn't just 4 s upply them with another unit; in other words, change 5 i t up? 6 MR. WHITWELL: So it's supplied by the 7 m anufacturer. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's supplied by -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: It's supplied by the 10 m anufacturer then. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's coming from the 12 d istributor site, but you are resupplying them with 13 t heir inventory. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: But can that be our choice? 15 MR. EISNER: But probably charge the 16 r estocking cost. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. It's totally 18 f or discussion. I have no -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: We wouldn't do it if -- 20 MR. STANONIK: If you went that direction, 21 w hy don't you just go back to manufacturer-provided? 22 I f you're going to make the manufacturer make one to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 317 1 s ubstitute for the one you pulled out of the 2 d istributor, why not just go to the source? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is a difference there; 4 r ight? 5 MR. STANONIK: If we were to figure out those 6 r ules, have them make the necessary pool; right? Frank 7 S tanonik, AHRI. I would suggest -- and, again, it is 8 v ery difficult to see the whole picture here, but I 9 w ould suggest, okay, the hierarchy is that if the 10 m anufacturer provides it, if they don't have that 11 m odel, you test another model that came from the same 12 A EDM -- 13 MR. WHITWELL: Or we would build a different 14

- - we would maybe propose a different model that we 15 m ight have in inventory -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. This is -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: -- or we would have to build 18 a nother one. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Like for HVAC when you guys 20 h ave agreed to either test at a third party lab or a 21 p erson being on site where if a third -- an independent 22 p erson if they are on site and they could say, "I want

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 318 1 t his. This is what I want" and if you say, "I don't 2 h ave that one, but this is what I have" or "Here is 3 w hat I have" and they randomly pick one but you're 4 a sking DOE to also consider a lab requirement where no 5 o ne is on site but you have just been approved as a 6 m anufacturer witness lab, so how do selections work? 7 A nd there is no independent person there to select per 8 s e. Maybe there doesn't need to be. I don't know. 9 T his is just more a discussion exercise. 10 MR. STANONIK: That's actually a different 11 q uestion. Okay. Let's say they're all manufacturer12 p rovided. Let's say you would agree to that. Okay? 13 B ut then you have the sub-issue that, okay, if the 14 m anufacturer is using the satellite program so that, in 15 f act, the manufacturer is the selector and the tester 16 a nd everything else. I mean, if that's the -- you 17 k now, then maybe we need to address that sub-issue of 18 u nder that circumstance how does the satellite 19 m anufacturer select samples. But that's -- to me, you 20 k now, that shouldn't color how you addressed everything 21 e lse -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 319 1 MR. STANONIK: -- because that's in all the 2 o ther cases. Again, I think if you really look at 3 t his, the only answers, all the stuff should be 4 m anufacturer- provided, however you work that out. 5 A nything else is a huge complication, I mean, for all 6 t he commercial products. 7 MR. THARP: And that's why it's best to do 8 t his commercial HVAC option for where you test it. 9 T hen you don't have to worry -- 10 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. This whole 11 s cenario is one of the reasons why HVAC, commercial 12 H VAC, suggested just the two top options for where you 13 t est because then you don't have to worry as much about 14 t he selection process. It makes things a lot easier. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: As a manufacturer is running 16 t he test, the manufacturer is picking the unit, the 17 m anufacturer is -- you know, there is no one there. 18 T he manufacturer is providing the test results. Yes, 19 t here is some oversight at some point in time during 20 t he year from a third party but not at the same -- you 21 k now, maybe if you want us to consider that option, we 22 s ay you have to supply from a distributor or you have

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 320 1 t o supply from inventory, I mean, something that -- 2 MR. WHITWELL: So I think Frank's suggestion 3 w as a good one. Let's talk about that majority and 4 t hen come back and talk about this specific issue. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6 MS. DANE: Right, because I don't think that 7 w hat we meant to say even when the manufacturers do 8 t heir own testing and things was not to presume that we 9 w ould do the selection of the unit that you would 10 v erify. If we talk about how we test and what the 11 p ercentage numbers and all of those numbers that go 12 i nto that, then we could talk about DOE picking them 13 b ecause you would have more flexibility and we wouldn't 14 b e able to make our special units up ahead of time. 15 Y ou would still get a clean test. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. And no one -- 17 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. We might be 18 a ble to even do that through the -- if we were taking 19 t hat third option, what we have been calling the 20 s atellite option, maybe we inform the third party 21 l aboratory of what we have in stock. They pick, and we 22 g o pull it.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 321 1 MS. DANE: That's what we do for NSF. And I 2 r ecently had an ENERGY STAR test. And they asked for a 3 c ertain model. And the only difference between the one 4 t hey asked for and the one I had was the doors were 5 h inged on the opposite site, but it changed the part 6 n umber. And I had to ask permission to get it done. 7 Y ou know, I mean, I still had to provide the reason why 8 I couldn't supply what they asked for. And once they 9 r ealized it was only door hinges, they were fine. But, 10 I mean, that's not an uncommon thing. But NSF will ask 11 y ou what you have got in your inventory at that time 12 w hen they come in to do an inspection. And then, you 13 k now, a lot of times we have got to go over to the 14 s torehouse and get it and bring it over, uncrate it, 15 a nd have them look at it. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: But they're there. They're 17 o n site. That is the difference. 18 MS. DANE: Well, that is part of their 19 v erification program. But it could be the same thing 20 w ith ENERGY STAR. They're not here when they send me a 21 l etter and ENERGY STAR says, "We want to see these 22 u nits." So whether you do it, whether you are standing

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 322 1 i n my office or you do it, through the mail, they're 2 s till choosing what -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 4 MS. DANE: -- you're going to verify. And I 5 d on't think that's an argument. 6 MR. KOJAK: You guys could still accept the 7 u nits or you could have the -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I mean, we retain the 9 r ight to show up at any time; right? So that's like a 10 y ear. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, if we decided to show 13 u p and we wanted to say, "What's in your inventory 14 t oday? Let's go play in the test room" -- 15 MR. KOJAK: Well, if they're not part of the 16 A HRI program, you could leave it up to the third party, 17 t he other VICP group that they're involved -- you could 18 l eave it up to them to come up with their own selection 19 p rocess that they work with you guys to say it's okay. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is one option; right, 21 t hat the selection process has to be documented and the 22 m anual they submit to DOE to get approval; right, to

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 323 1 g et some type of recognized approval? And should there 2 b e any minimum set of requirements such that all of 3 t hose types of things are equitable? And maybe the 4 a nswer is no, that everyone should be able to have the 5 f lexibility to, you know, submit their ideas. And if 6 D OE is not comfortable, we can say no. 7 MR. RIVEST: You could have principles 8 w ithout having criteria. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, that's the 10 i dea. Is there some guiding principle? Is there some 11 m inimum level that is a deal breaker for DOE just so 12 y ou know at the outset -- 13 MR. KOJAK: Well, because that could be kind 14 o f customized for the smaller manufacturers, -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure. 16 MR. KOJAK: -- you know, that you will be 17 o kay with their selection process being very non18 c omplicated, but some of the larger manufacturers, you 19 c an want it to be more diversified and it can be kind 20 o f a custom -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: I don't understand. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't understand either.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 324 1 MR. WHITWELL: I didn't understand that. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: I didn't understand, and I 3 c an't hear some of it. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 5 MR. KOJAK: I was just talking about if 6 t hey're not part of the AHRI program and to give the 7 a bility to whoever they are going to use, a third party 8 t est lab verification program, leave it up to them to 9 d ecide who or what units to test, and that would be 10 w orked out with that third party VICP with the DOE. 11 A nd that could be customized pretty much to the size of 12 t he customers that are in that program for, let's say, 13 a smaller manufacturer. The selection process can be a 14 l ittle bit more custom to what they make and how much 15 o f it they make than it is to a larger manufacturer, 16 w here it would be a lot easier to pick test units in a 17 b roader scope because of their production and what they 18 o ffer. So it doesn't have to a one thing fits 19 e verybody. It could be customized to the individual 20 c ompanies that are involved with those, the third party 21 V ICPs. 22 MR. WHITWELL: But whether it is a smaller or

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 325 1 l arge company, let's say they're offering the same 2 p roduct range. Why wouldn't the selection process be 3 s omewhat similar? 4 MR. KOJAK: Well, I would think it would, but 5 m aybe the volume would be different because you might 6 o ffer more, but if you are making 10,000 of each kind 7 a nd they're only making 2 of each kind, I mean, I would 8 t hink that -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. But you're talking 10 a bout numbers of units, as opposed to what the 11 s election process -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think you get my point. 13 D oes there need to be some minimum level of guiding 14 p rinciples so that the selection process is less 15 c omplicated or should it be left to each verification 16 p rogram individually? I don't have the answer, but 17 t hat is pretty much what I was asking. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, there is some 19 c riteria for AHRI; right? I mean, one is to try to get 20 a ll of the basic model groups over a certain period of 21 t ime. Also, it's some percentage that is picked based 22 o n high efficiency equipment. Right? There's a few --

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 326 1 MR. AMRANE: It's random. I mean, it's not - 2

- 3 MR. WHITWELL: And there are some that are 4 j ust random, right. 5 MR. AMRANE: But it's subject to the staff 6 w ho is handling the program who takes, you know, the -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: What is that process? 8 MR. KOJAK: That was part of it before. AHRI 9 h as a higher level of oversight than this will be. So, 10 y ou know, if AHRI wants to cover all of these products 11 o ver a certain amount of years, the DOE verification 12 p rogram might not have to meet that same requirement of 13 l ooking at everything within that same point of time 14 b ecause that was something we mentioned. This is 15 s omething completely different than AHRI. So this 16 d oesn't have to, you know, cover everything as fast. 17 I t could be, you know, not as intense. 18 MR. WHITWELL: So are you suggesting that 19 A HRI might not have to provide all of the data from 20 t heir verification program, certification program to 21 D OE but only a subset of that? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 327 1 MR. WHITWELL: I'm not quite sure what the 2 p oint is there. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I don't think we have 4 t alked about data needs to be provided to the 5 D epartment yet -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yet. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- and when it needs to be 8 p rovided and how often it needs to be provided and how 9 q uickly it needs to be provided. And since it's almost 10 6 :00 o'clock, I'm going to say I know she has to leave 11 r ight at 6:00. And we're not going to embark on that 12 t erritory, but why don't we leave it right now as 13 m anufacturer-provided/off the production line? And 14 L aura is going to sleep on it. And she'll bring it up 15 t omorrow morning. There are additional discussion 16 p oints. 17 MR. STANONIK: But keep in mind this is the 18 h eading "Built to stock," "In stock." So these are 19 t hat subgrouping of the commercial market that are, 20 l et's say, frequently manufactured. And "frequently" 21 i s, admittedly, undefined right here. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Well, with built to stock, the

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 328 1 i mplication is that quite often you are going to be 2 a ble to get it out of inventory; right? 3 MR. STANONIK: Right. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Not only -- 5 MR. STANONIK: That is the implication, 6 r ight. Yes. We are only talking about that subset 7 b ecause -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So we will pick up here 9 t omorrow 8:00 a.m. 10 (Whereupon, at 5:51 p.m., the Appliance 11 S tandards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory 12 C ommittee was adjourned.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 221**~ERTIFICATE** OF COURT REPORTER 2 I, CHRISTINE ALLEN, the Court Reporter before 3 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 4 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 5 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 6 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 7 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 8 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 9 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 10 interest in this proceeding. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Digital Court Reporter



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### 2013

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013 Page 1

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 $ $10,000 18:7 19:12 23:12 $200,000 23:13 $25,000 18:18 19:2 0 065 120:11 1 1:00 252:15 253:6 263:2,5 10 6:21 8:21 30:16 32:17 206:19 225:3 227:18 260:19 10,000 68:4 210:4 325:6 10:00 264:15 266:21 267:1,6,7,8,9,22 10:10 1:11 10:40 269:17 270:2 273:7,8 100 21:13 201:14 277:15 100,000 208:4 10430 183:1 10th 240:2,6,8 251:11,12 254:1,8 258:5 260:15 261:1,4 263:9,12 11 261:2 11:30 250:11 11th 239:20,21 240:8,9 244:7,16,18 250:16 251:1,7 252:22 253:10 254:8 257:10,13,16 258:21 259:4,7 260:15,18 263:20 264:3,10 265:11,17 266:11 268:1,10 12 30:16 223:5,9,11 227:18 228:21 276:13 12:00 250:11 253:3 270:2 12-foot 96:5 12th 240:9 251:7,14 252:2 253:2,3,11 257:13,17 258:2,3,21 259:1,2,3 260:18 261:3,8,9 263:21 264:4 265:18,19 266:11 268:2 271:9 135 214:11 13th 240:9,10,11 251:2,4,8 261:2,5 14 96:6 15-minute 71:8,9 225:3 16th 237:4,6 240:19 17 105:11 17025 12:15 13:4,11,12 15:3,10 16:7,11 17:21 18:3,15,16 19:9,17,18 20:10,20 22:15,18 24:5 25:6 28:17 29:12 30:4,7,14 35:10 36:13,20 37:13 38:18,19 39:1,3,5,7,10,11, 15,17,19 40:17,19 42:10,12,14,18 43:1,6 44:8 50:22 51:3 54:14 62:17 63:13 65:3 67:15,21 68:3 72:18 81:10,20 82:1,12 83:6,8,17 84:2 85:13,19 86:11 87:7 94:5,10 96:14 97:11 98:11,15 99:7,9 100:9,10,11,12,2 2 101:9,11,14 102:9,16 103:18 104:18 107:14 108:13 109:14,21 110:10 111:9 114:16 119:3,21 122:17 123:16,18 124:2,7 126:7 127:22 129:22 138:15 139:2,3 141:17,20 142:9,14 167:1 172:6,15 173:4,11,19 174:3,7,9,18 175:3,6,13 177:6,12,14 180:7 184:6 190:8,10 17-025 292:6 17065 54:15 119:21,22 120:7,16 121:17,20,22 122:18 123:18,20 124:1,8 125:8,15,22 126:8,16,18 127:3,7,10 129:22 130:6 148:19 17th 240:21 18 223:5 18,000 215:2 18-hour 234:13 18-month 223:1 18th 240:21 19th 240:21 242:18 243:3 249:14 1st 302:9,11 2 2 213:14 325:7 2,000 213:11,15 2:00 124:18 263:2,5 20 8:21 9:1,2 61:21 198:4 206:19 209:5 212:20 213:3 215:1 218:13 222:3,4 242:21 20,000 212:22 213:10 215:1 2013 1:10 2015 202:4 20th 237:5,7 242:18,20

### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 210/240 237:17 21st 231:21 232:1 246:2 249:14 23 242:21 23rd 236:6,9 242:18 243:4 249:14 25,000 68:4 25th 236:17,18 238:2,9,12 239:1,8 241:16 26th 232:11,13 235:15 236:7,9,14,17,21 ,22 237:21 238:3,5 239:3,9 241:16,17 242:9 243:7,9 245:3,9,18 249:20 250:3 251:1 253:12 254:10 256:13 266:21 267:3,22 270:8,10,12,22 271:9,13 272:9,10 27 243:12 27th 232:11 235:16,17 238:9,10,11 239:4,5 242:9 243:7 253:12 254:11 258:19 28th 243:13,18 245:18 250:5 254:11,13,18 256:15,18,19 257:9 258:19 259:16 266:10 267:3,22 270:10 29 242:21 243:12 29th 242:10,18 243:7,11 250:12 251:1 255:2,6 256:13,17 266:11,12 268:3 2nd 302:9,19 3 3 159:10 3:00 264:4 30 242:21 243:12 30-person 248:2 30th 242:19 245:10 34360 186:14 346360 186:19 3rd 237:4,6,8,10,16 241:5 300:20 4 4 241:12 40 215:12 430 175:1 184:16 185:21 190:10 431 183:8,13 431.2 297:22 441-446 6:21 446 7:5 46 8:11 4th 237:4,6,8,16 241:5 242:18 5 5 208:4,5 241:12 5:00 252:16 263:1 265:22 5:51 328:10

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### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013 Page 3

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115:3 117:19 118:3,12 120:9 122:9 131:2,14,20 134:4,5 140:17 141:7 142:9,15 145:12 148:13 153:11 154:18 163:11,20 164:8,20 165:12 173:4 180:5 190:22 191:12 193:19 194:1 205:11 211:5 230:17 237:2 247:11 249:1 259:11,12 282:19 285:11 292:1 308:3 320:14,18 323:4 328:2 ABMA 12:16 13:20 165:7 absolutely 70:7 109:18 110:7 128:7 147:6 161:8 162:20 165:19 176:2 189:7 208:7 247:22 301:18 302:21 absolve 107:15 abstain 192:7 absurd 212:18 abused 302:4,6 accept 44:11 58:12 76:15 102:2 145:12,21 190:2 191:4,10,13 246:10 322:6 acceptable 43:15 73:6 75:18 139:6 144:16 184:19 194:9 accepting 75:21 191:17 access 66:4 231:11,15,16 acclimation 233:18 255:1 accommodate 180:14 accommodations 129:5 accomplish 259:7 accordance 121:3 according 22:17 accounted 192:16 accredit 22:16 101:22 102:17 114:8,16 184:15 accreditation 21:7 23:21 24:6,10 25:10 26:15 28:12,17 36:1,4 38:10 67:15 86:13,22 100:18 101:11,21 106:3 114:15 132:2 148:10 175:8 183:21 185:11 accreditations 100:9 106:2 121:1 130:15 144:7 accredited 19:19 20:20 21:6 24:17 36:5 40:11 43:5 54:16 83:17 84:2 86:11 98:15 100:21 102:15 103:17,20 104:3,5,17,18 105:4,7,13,14 107:15 108:13 109:15 138:15 140:17 176:5 184:6 accrediting 139:4 175:5 176:1 183:19,22 184:7,13 185:6 accreditors 185:9 187:4 accuracy 13:9 32:9 74:22 accurate 30:12 121:3,9 199:5 329:7 achieve 177:6 acknowledge 72:10 98:7,8 acknowledgement 202:2 acknowledges 79:17 acronym 28:16 acronyms 26:20 107:8 across 18:9 79:16 96:2 208:10 247:12 248:21 255:15 278:21 act 306:19 acting 295:9 action 253:12 actual 21:13,15 134:4 135:16 172:20 180:6 186:11 actuality 177:19 actually 30:13 34:6 36:8 42:15 47:8,22 48:1 61:22 81:14 86:19 108:20 119:8 121:9 134:7 137:20 145:3 149:9 153:16 183:9 186:14 188:8 232:4 236:3,16 273:11,13 295:7 306:17 308:4 318:10 add 26:3,18 36:21 39:2 42:12 51:7,17 52:3 60:4,5 62:7 104:10,20 107:18 112:18 113:4,5 128:3 138:9 141:14 156:12 180:16 185:6 192:2 241:22 242:2 250:5,12 280:19,20 added 179:2 219:3 227:15 266:10,12 313:13 adding 112:14 270:7 300:2 addition 18:20 51:20 91:21 113:1 198:7 228:13 additional 15:9 19:9 62:2 99:8 104:8 107:18,19 109:1 130:12 138:21 198:13 327:15

### Capita l Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013 Page 4

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 additionally 19:8 address 11:2 17:1 52:2 79:10 109:22 134:18 137:18 162:11 177:4 191:17 223:18 229:8 234:21 284:1,17 318:17 addressed 7:20 137:11 201:20 318:20 addressing 220:1 adds 80:1 adequate 5:17 13:7,8 119:13 144:20 adequately 79:10 165:20 adjourn 264:2 adjourned 328:12 adjust 269:15 adjusted 237:19 administration 59:11 admittedly 327:21 adopt 127:10 adopted 128:12 advance 254:3,4 advantage 87:22 advertising 74:19 Advisory 1:4 234:22 328:11 AEDM 212:12 317:12 AEDMs 212:8,9 Affairs 236:19,20 affect 74:17 153:2,19 affecting 12:9 affiliated 102:19 afford 136:18 163:13 after-confidence 144:18 afternoon 219:11 222:10 262:15 afterwards 253:21 against 118:2 283:3 agencies 12:8 122:14 agency 105:14 109:14 126:22 132:4,7 143:1 174:19 175:3,7 176:4 190:3 193:21 198:7 agenda 137:12 252:14 262:17,19 ages 195:9 ago 30:17 50:13 61:21 222:18 274:8 agreed 216:1 218:6 227:2 231:1 235:21 317:20 agreed-upon 13:7 agreeing 148:8 agreement

16:17 119:15,18 128:9 166:15 228:3 233:13 258:18 266:5 306:4,9 308:22

agreements 233:11 306:1 ahead 6:6 16:21 20:14 112:12 143:16,17 147:15 161:22 216:11 222:13 225:14 229:22 235:12 253:11,19 273:19 320:14 AHRI 2:7 3:14,18 13:18 21:2 45:16,17,21 47:16 73:7 75:15 82:17,18 84:13 86:2 87:2 89:7 97:14,22 99:6,12 117:1 118:16 136:1 137:5,10 138:21 155:6 164:19 165:1,19,21 167:3,4 173:11 175:9 178:3 202:16 205:22 208:19 209:5 212:5 215:7 216:12,21 218:4,13 219:16 220:16 221:2 223:1 224:7 226:16 230:2 237:17 238:20 239:10 241:5 246:10,11 247:4,16 248:19 259:9,12,13 274:4 276:1,20 290:5 317:7 322:16 324:6 325:19 326:8,10,15,19

AHRI's 75:16 129:14 air 4:21 5:2 6:7,16,18 136:21 170:12 171:5 172:18 Air-Conditioning 2:6,11 3:13Air-cooled/watercooled 78:3 air-over 4:16 6:14 airports 255:10 Alaska 232:6 all-day 252:3,15 Allen 1:16 329:2,15 alleviate 171:8 allow 21:2 39:4 50:13 114:10,12,16,22 115:7 123:13 139:2 145:21 200:7 265:22 allowances 165:14 allowed 47:2 76:9 138:18,19 176:8 313:19 allows 102:18 already 28:20 34:19 36:22 38:1,12 44:14,17 54:10 57:18 65:14 82:18 108:17 112:18 118:8,12 120:18 126:18 165:21 166:2 217:20 230:16 231:6

### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 236:13 238:7 241:15 245:19 250:21 271:22 294:15 295:3 306:9 313:20 314:2 alternate 9:9 16:6 237:22 alternative 176:7,9,11 177:20,22 212:6 215:6 alternatives 16:2 226:9,10 am 12:16 14:7,11 16:6,15 59:6,8 89:12 92:3 98:6,22 105:14 113:9 125:17 133:21 199:9 207:12 208:2 209:12,13 214:19 215:10 217:18 224:8,18 226:2,18 255:3 259:14 261:4 288:4 303:22 306:19 307:16 312:19 313:7 329:7 AMCA 55:14 amend 294:22 America 81:15,18 96:4,10,11 American 3:9 among 215:12 220:14 amount 18:21 22:12 33:10 151:10 214:14 221:1 228:4 310:10 326:11

Amrane 2:6 75:15 82:17,21 99:6,11,14,17 125:19 127:4 137:5,9,10,22 157:17 173:11,19 180:6 182:11 202:5 205:22 206:3,6 208:18 209:5 218:4,8,17 219:16,20 220:5,7,9 224:7,12,16 226:16 230:2 231:9,14 236:22 238:22 239:10 241:6 246:9,11 248:10 249:4 257:6 277:21 278:4 326:1,5 ANC 194:2 and/or 175:20 annual 19:1 38:2 42:21 61:8 62:14 69:6 84:13 118:17 119:7,12 130:1 134:2 212:16,22 213:6 290:9 299:8,9 annually 61:2 118:21,22 119:3 221:14 answer 33:11 38:7 69:1,3,22 143:18 149:9 170:7 203:2 207:19 216:8 217:22 245:22 261:19 279:5 280:17 281:15 313:7,17 323:4 325:16

answering 310:11 answers 319:3 anybody 16:3 51:16 55:18 65:9 76:18 113:13 124:14 126:15 136:9 138:2 146:14,15 147:5 192:6,7 231:20 239:19 265:16 296:19 Anyhow 188:17 anymore 153:21 158:4 275:7 301:7 anyone 17:14 56:13 123:13 140:13 215:21 216:13 219:1 anything 23:6 44:4 48:15 51:16 71:19 75:3 76:7 93:16 112:11 125:11 128:20 140:20 143:1 153:19,22 159:13 192:1 203:12 253:18 283:21 284:1 290:1 319:5 anytime 303:2 anyway 46:22 232:5 265:3,11 294:15 anywhere 23:12 33:19 apologize 209:3 appears 13:21 appliance 1:3 169:18,20 171:5,6 177:5 328:10 appliances 142:20 143:2,8 170:17 applicable 120:17 122:2 126:2 179:19 189:8 249:1 application 41:17 applications 6:13 applied 5:7 9:9 181:3 applies 6:8 32:3 124:7 173:8 177:13 285:6 apply 16:11 168:14 174:20 177:12 190:19 216:17 314:3 appointment 254:15 257:15 appreciate 169:5 249:7 254:5 approach 181:17 212:6 215:7 225:14 309:4 appropriate 11:22 17:8 151:15 216:4 approval 14:22 19:4 41:5 58:8 84:12 93:12 102:9 131:15 134:20 141:15 147:5 174:6 322:22 323:1 approvals 115:8 approve 52:10

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 08-07-2013 Page 6

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84:12 85:1 110:8 approved 25:3 33:8 35:20 37:12,20 61:6 84:10,11 85:7 126:19,21 127:5 131:18 138:14 180:19 181:9 223:19 282:12 300:16 318:5 approving 55:5,6 131:19 192:8 area 13:2 148:3 areas 119:9 aren't 17:20 46:19 80:10 85:13 105:12 155:1,5 186:16 194:16 196:17 argue 179:22 arguing 180:10 argument 322:5 ARHI 146:15 178:19 186:14 Aris 3:4 Armstrong 2:8 6:6 10:15 11:8 16:13 17:12 23:19 24:18 25:6,11,18 26:9,20 27:2,10,15,20 29:2,6,17,22 31:8 32:19 33:1 35:17,20 36:3,6,9,16 37:4,14 38:9 39:8 40:5,13 41:15 42:2,6 43:4 45:6,9,15 46:9,13,16,21 47:8,13,19,21 48:2,5,13,19 49:5,15,19 50:7,15 52:7,14,18,20 53:3,8,12,15,21 54:7,12,22 55:9,20 56:6,8,10,17,22 57:6,9,17 58:2,4,14,18 59:2,8,13,15,19 63:15 64:6,14,17 65:14,19 66:6 67:2,17,20 68:1,10 69:8,21 70:4,7 71:1,7,11,16 72:2,7,21 73:3,10,22 74:6,9 77:5,11,14,18,20 78:1,3,6,13,17 79:13 80:6,13,21 81:3,6,10,16 82:14,20 83:1,14 87:4,6,13 89:2,5,9 91:6 92:20 93:9 94:21 95:4,16 96:8,12 97:5,9,19 98:4,18 99:4,10,12,15 100:5,15 101:1,8,13 102:12,21 103:5,10 104:2,6,20 105:10,18,21 106:7,17 107:12 109:5,8,10,12 110:4,7,11,15,18 111:1,13,22 112:4,7,11,17,21 113:16 116:6,22 117:7,10 118:18,22 119:17 120:4,21 123:1,7,10 124:13 126:15 127:14,20 128:7,18 129:13 132:21 133:5,10,18 134:6 157:11,13 158:1,5 159:20 160:8,12 161:8,17 162:2,13,20 167:13,17 168:2,16,22 169:4,8,12 170:5,15,22 171:7,14,18,22 172:3,8 173:2 174:1,4,12,14 175:11,16 176:2,6,13,16,18 ,22 177:9 178:7 179:4,9 180:3,8,18 181:11,22 182:9,14,18 183:2,7,14,17 184:1,5,12,20 186:3,6 187:10,12,15,20 188:1,6,13,15,17 ,22 189:7,16,20 190:6,12 191:1,22 192:5,16,20 193:1,7 194:11,18 195:2 198:14,20 199:5 200:18 201:1,20 202:2,6,13 203:2,5,9,12,15 204:9,18 205:5,21 206:2,5,9 207:9,16,20

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 282:4,9,21 283:2,7,9,16,18 284:4,7,11,19 285:8,12,17 286:2,4,6,10 287:3,10,17 288:1,11,15 291:17,21 292:8 294:13,22 295:11,17 296:1,17 297:1,5,15,21 299:15,18 300:8,12 301:1,8,15,18,21 302:13,15,17,21 303:3,6,11,13 304:14,17,21 307:14,20 308:9 309:5 310:3,6 311:11,18 312:14,18 313:1,21 315:2,16,21 316:3,8,11,17 317:3,16,19 318:22 319:15 320:5,16 321:16 322:3,8,12,20 323:9,15 325:12 326:7,22 327:3,7 arranged 246:1 295:10 arrangement 56:14 arrives 306:12 articulating 29:18 Ashley 2:8 26:4 28:21 40:4,9 45:8 57:5,20 60:4 70:2 88:21 99:20 218:20 226:3 227:13,16 241:8 262:6,7 282:14 297:3 Ashley's 98:6 ASHRAC 230:12 ASHRAE 229:14 ASHRE 182:22 aside 17:9 aspect 205:8 aspects 127:20 128:3 205:6 aspersions 59:4 ASRAC 227:3,7 230:13,14 232:16,19 233:9 244:5 252:2,6,17,18,21 253:5,9,11,19,21 259:8,15 261:17 262:12 270:4 271:16,22 ASRAC's 234:1 ASRAE 212:1 as-received 134:11 assessment 73:15 75:2,9 144:10 146:4 224:1,5 281:17 284:3,4 300:17 assistance 19:11 240:4 assume 29:2 31:22 51:1 112:1 140:1 184:7,15 225:22 assumed 210:20 assuming 291:12 assumption 87:15 224:3 assurance 15:4 62:15 69:17 70:19 125:10 135:4 199:9 200:7,10 assures 125:10 assuring 195:6 Atlanta 241:1,3 atomically 180:1 attainable 229:16,17 attempt 16:6 attend 261:17 attention 179:1 182:20 attributes 169:13 audio 5:16 6:3 audit 30:6 46:1 58:9 72:11,12,18 73:8,14,15,20 74:4,15,17,21 114:18 118:17 141:9 186:13 301:12,17 audited 119:1 185:9 auditing 48:14 61:9 auditors 127:5,6 audits 48:17 118:9 195:16,19,22 August 1:10 11:14 228:4 232:10,22 241:15,19,20 242:6,9,11,17 245:15,17,18 249:15 250:6,7,8 266:15 267:3,5,22 270:10 auspices 111:9 130:22 authorities 291:22 authority 168:10 185:6 205:3 authorization 43:9 44:11 52:1 60:6 authorizations 123:13 authorized 19:16 113:3 174:8,10 authorizing 306:19 automatic 171:1 automatically 101:17 availability 238:13 available 12:20 65:15,16 81:13 94:12 151:7 202:10 230:18 231:1,3 236:1 237:4 238:19 242:17 243:22 259:18 274:18 275:10 276:13,19 average 212:15 avoid 251:21 avoiding 124:9 avoids 124:1 aware 169:4 212:20 290:19 away 105:4 113:8,14 125:11 163:14 182:10 227:3,4,5,6,7 246:10 276:13

### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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certainty 38:17 certificate 175:2 176:3 276:20 329:1 certification 5:18 13:14 14:4 15:8,11 17:21 18:8,22 19:5,11,14 25:21 35:7 44:12 50:16 54:1,2,8,9,13 55:22 58:13 60:17,19 64:1,5 65:6 67:19 93:2 97:15 98:1 100:1 102:4 103:1 110:17 114:11 119:7 120:19 121:7 126:2,3,9 130:13,16 131:8,12 132:5,18 142:20 145:22 163:22 164:3 178:15 180:22 188:18 195:17 196:19 197:12 217:3 283:13 290:7 293:6,9 294:21 295:5 304:22 305:10 306:15,20,21 307:4 308:5,6 309:17 326:20 certifications 100:3 205:21 308:12 certified 15:3,10 20:10 40:11 47:6 48:9 95:6 119:3 121:20 125:16 142:19 170:1,16 178:11 187:18 188:19 194:1 196:8,9 207:22 287:14,21 288:9 292:8 certifier 290:14,22 295:20 296:15,21 307:1 certifies 55:14 287:16 certify 19:20 20:15 31:5,17 32:5,6 37:20 52:11 62:18 120:9 122:10 155:19 178:5 181:1 289:8 291:17 292:3,12,18,22 296:2,20 300:1 303:21 305:20,21 306:16,17 308:8 329:4 certifying 120:1,5 122:1 125:22 188:2 196:9,16 288:11 291:14 292:12 294:14 296:4,5 304:3 certitude 166:5 certs 253:17 cetera 121:4 157:4 170:1 181:4 228:21 CFR 6:21 175:1 183:1,3 185:18 chain 275:19 315:20 challenge 63:19 challenges 63:3 165:8

chance 4:4 128:11 149:1 change 14:19 59:9 134:15 158:12 159:3 254:14 285:2,3 286:8 291:3 293:11 294:5,6 296:3 301:19 303:1,4 306:10 308:4 316:4 changed 187:2 293:14 321:5 changes 12:9 14:17,19 134:16 180:13 201:9 305:16,17 306:12 changing 254:15 291:9 302:19 309:14,15 characteristics 104:8 207:17 characterized 169:14 characterizes 50:1,3 charge 316:15 charges 139:13 Charles 2:18 Charlie 133:13 145:18 182:19 196:5 197:3 Charlie's 143:18 147:1 cheaper 48:1 cheat 43:19 cheating 135:8

### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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cost 18:2,3,17 21:5,13,18 23:11 38:2 60:15 62:10 72:16 88:9 91:17 95:19 96:1,7,22 118:3 190:20,21 274:9 314:14 316:16 cost-effective 199:6 costly 31:22 61:17 63:9 64:21 68:6 costs 15:13 18:7 37:22 63:11 68:4 70:13 155:10 316:2 Council 3:9 country 59:6 88:1 113:10 115:11 255:15 265:4 278:22 305:12 couple 10:16 83:16 103:14 167:12 207:16 270:9 course 8:11 46:5 83:6 281:11 292:13 Court 160:3 191:5 329:1,2,15 cover 45:20 81:20 167:2 212:10,11,12 247:12 316:1 326:10,16 covered 39:18 45:18 46:15 55:16 79:10 130:7 165:5 167:6,7 168:9 169:16,17 187:7,8,12,15

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 184:16,18 187:3 189:3,8 190:1 191:3,10,13,18 193:15 195:11 196:11 199:18 209:14 212:19 218:19 219:1 220:20,22 223:7,9,12 228:7 234:20 248:11 253:11 260:5 277:11 279:18 280:9 282:10,12 284:20 290:7,9,15 291:15 292:19 293:6 300:16,17 304:13 306:18 318:4 320:12 322:22 323:6,11 324:10 326:11,21 DOE-approved 25:19 34:1 181:7 313:22 314:3 DOE-certified 32:4 DOE-covered 167:19 DOE-regulated 168:5 DOE's 55:11 59:17 62:12 63:11 173:6 276:22 277:19 DOE-selected 111:18 DOE-verified 98:2 dog 91:12 dollars 18:18 domestic 297:9,10 done 15:12 20:1,19 22:1,7 24:8 34:9 43:10 66:9 69:17 82:4 84:16 87:1,6 92:11 100:1 105:9 106:21 114:21 115:20 124:21 130:5 133:4 136:22 139:9 140:4 149:21 154:9 157:10 164:16 189:6 190:3 206:10 208:21 209:9 225:7 226:14 227:13,16 228:2,3,5 234:3 235:6,10 245:19 249:4 257:6,9 273:1,6 282:11 299:13,18 306:14 307:6 321:6 Doodle 11:11 268:17 door 88:2,13 283:4 321:9 doors 321:4 Doppel 2:15 177:11 179:7 187:5,21 188:3,11,21 255:19 256:11,14 double 72:16 214:7 draft 45:3 232:18 233:1 242:5 drafting 228:8 drafts 45:3 draw 49:14 50:8 249:2 drawing 49:15 145:7 driven 186:10 drop 85:4 duct 219:8 due 50:18 dumped 23:17 duplicate 199:3 duplication 308:8 duration 93:1 during 99:15 104:9 125:20 232:5 292:13 319:19 duties 308:18 dutiful 272:7 DVDs 35:15 dyno 4:22 E earlier 35:12 142:2 147:20 183:19 192:12 200:19 239:12 246:7 254:21 264:9 early 242:6 264:13 EarthJustice 2:9 easier 234:18 259:5 319:14 324:16 easiest 77:6,7 easily 229:16 easy 155:11 157:5 194:16 229:9 eating 267:20

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 filing 297:14 308:4 fill 259:20 306:20,21 filling 307:4 filter 184:7 final 144:21 145:2 223:2,8 finalize 238:16 finalized 225:18 financial 138:10 329:9 fine 202:12 230:3 243:18 248:10 321:9 fining 261:13 finish 125:1 259:11 finished 223:3 finishing 263:3 fire 13:2 307:12 first 6:5 32:5 33:15 38:17 45:19 57:10 60:8 72:4 76:13 78:15 83:16,17 84:18 86:3,4 93:21 94:13,15,22 99:2 101:1 104:13 105:20 117:3 120:12 177:19 179:20 212:7 223:9 244:8 257:15 262:19 267:1,6,7,9,22 270:20 273:18 274:6,12 312:7 313:5 fit 80:19 86:7 94:7 103:16 146:16,17 154:17 163:15 fits 18:9 324:18 fitting 153:18 five 7:1 9:20 49:6 65:13 124:18 146:9 179:14 206:17,18 218:22 219:3 245:11 298:11,17 299:1 five-ton 214:4,5 221:19 flag 114:19 flat 9:22 flaw 136:3,9 flexibility 320:13 323:5 flight 255:3 269:15,22 273:7 flights 264:7 269:9,14 Florida 93:15 fly 2:16 9:4,7 49:14,17 51:11 55:12 66:13 67:13,18,21 68:2 79:5,21 80:19 81:1,4 93:7 94:10 152:15 159:14 183:18 184:3,6,13 185:5 207:2,10,19 208:6,8,11,16,21 209:8,9,19 210:3,6,8,10,13 211:13,18,21 212:1,4 213:17,22 214:12,16,22 220:22 221:6,11,15 224:1,4 250:20 256:6 264:16 266:20 270:1 272:8,10 279:22 280:2,6 281:14,16,19 282:2,8 flying 255:14 focused 73:19 119:9 128:1 focusing 32:21 116:12 FOIA 67:12 folks 100:18 101:22 127:16 133:3 153:9 162:19 239:11 follow-up 200:12 food 193:16 194:7 195:7 196:4 201:13 foot 96:6 force 15:7 245:3 forced 94:3 forcing 22:1 Ford 81:2 foregoing 329:3 foreign 297:10 310:13 foreseeing 75:7 forget 49:7 242:8 forgive 222:15 form 14:22 31:11 52:4 62:17 132:2 306:18,20 formal 195:6 formed 230:12

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 maintaining 60:18 maintenance 303:8,17 major 13:6,18 202:7 majority 13:1 76:6 233:7 256:6 320:3 MALE 56:4,7,9,12,19 73:11 77:22 91:2 125:1 129:9 158:20 159:4 176:20 180:2 203:1 236:11,19 237:10 239:4 242:10,12 249:19 250:2,6 251:15,22 255:9,14 259:4 267:17 268:5,10 273:7 276:17 280:5 287:16 288:7,19 298:4 299:14 303:7,12 man 265:12 manage 31:21 60:13 management 101:16 Manny 252:20 262:10 manual 114:18 322:22 manuals 209:4 249:7 manufacture 50:22 58:1 275:4 278:20 285:7 manufactured 302:14 327:20 manufacturer 4:20 5:1 7:8,9,10,13 13:13 15:16 18:5,11,12,14 22:2 25:21 26:15 31:4 33:6 34:2,4 37:11,14,19 38:7 41:7,14 43:6 44:2,3 45:22 46:16 51:2 56:1 60:10,14 62:4,13 63:5 65:12 66:20 70:17 72:15 75:10,22 80:15 86:21 87:7 90:13 92:4 94:9 96:18 98:6 102:20 103:16 107:10 111:19 114:21 117:5 118:2 120:13 130:13,14 131:5 132:22 134:8 138:20 155:12,14 158:6 162:22 163:12 164:17 173:3 177:2 178:20 180:18 181:6,8 182:4 184:9 204:6,8,11,15 208:4,14,17 216:6 218:19 248:18 274:6 275:6 276:1 277:1,3,9 278:17 279:15,16,19 280:12 287:4,19 293:5 294:11,13,21 295:4,11,12,16,2 2 296:1,10 297:4,9,20 298:3,8 302:18 303:19 305:4,6,7,10,12, 14 307:3,19 308:16 309:19,21 310:21 311:1 314:12,22 315:1 316:7,10,22 317:10 318:6,11,14,15,1 9 319:4,15,16,17,1 8 324:13,15manufacturerprovided 316:21manufacturerprovided/off 327:13 manufacturers 5:14 7:1 10:17,21 11:11 13:19 14:3 15:6,7 16:21 17:19,21 23:4,18 32:14 38:5 59:18 60:1 63:2 64:12 73:18,19 75:12,20 79:1,7 84:7 85:11,13 90:14 102:17 107:6,13,20 113:8,14 115:4 116:16 117:19,21 118:7,11 121:6,16 136:12 149:7 167:4 186:11 204:4 208:20 212:14,20 247:6 268:17 272:5 278:21 279:3,4 294:12 308:7 310:13 320:7 323:14,18 manufacturer's 15:12 16:11 21:3 22:16 24:8 25:7,10 26:14 37:13 39:6,14,16 42:14,16,18 43:8 51:2 53:22 55:2,3 56:15 57:11 58:7 62:8 105:22 106:1,4 110:21 111:7 115:21 120:11 155:9 184:2 279:8 Manufacturers 219:20manufacturerselected 111:18 manufacturing 2:18 3:5,17 90:7 98:6 100:20 154:21 193:6 218:20 275:17,18 295:16 300:14 Marantan 3:4 mark 2:16 9:4,13 55:12 67:13 79:4 93:7 152:15 183:18 207:2 209:9 213:17 220:22 236:16 281:14 299:21 marked 236:21 market 9:15 28:10 135:5 171:11,13 214:19,20 222:6 282:17 290:16,19 295:9

### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 327:19 marketing 221:18 290:20 307:10 marketplace 14:1 277:6 markup 314:18 315:18,19 Marshall 2:20 58:19 59:2 Mary 2:13 18:4 21:16 34:13 170:19 192:13 200:19 match 151:20 181:3 matching 31:18 material 151:22 154:22 312:2 materials 133:21 139:4 253:8 254:2 matter 11:18 25:14 163:9 173:18 219:2 263:7 matters 108:12 may 4:21 5:1,17 6:13 8:16 9:1,2 13:16 17:6 19:15 28:4 40:17 47:14 50:1,12 55:18 59:10 68:3,6 80:9,13,22 82:12 85:12 96:13 97:7 99:21 100:2 108:8,10 123:15,17 130:4,5,6,7,17 141:21 152:21 153:4,11 168:4,5 169:19 174:15 175:21 179:9 180:11 203:5 206:21 207:13 212:11 214:12 216:8,11 234:18 248:21 261:17 277:6 278:5 281:4,11 285:18 289:15,18 292:1,14 293:3 300:2 309:8 maybe 5:11 32:3,4 45:22 55:21 60:8 62:6 69:13 70:8,11 76:2 82:6,8,21 84:4 95:13,21 107:21 129:17 136:21 148:19 149:16 150:13 156:7 160:4 177:21 182:3 200:22 206:18 212:13 216:7 217:3,4 219:9 220:10 222:7 224:6 225:16 226:18,19,20 235:15 238:15,17 259:10 261:10 262:18 263:2 266:6 273:8 293:2 314:4,9 317:14 318:8,17 319:21 320:20 323:3 325:5 McQuay 2:22 mean 9:10,16 10:15 11:8 21:7 24:10,20 27:15,16 28:2,7,15 29:6,17,19,22 31:5 32:16 33:2 37:15 38:1 40:14,18 41:3,11,19 42:2 45:5 48:12,19 49:6,11 50:7,9 52:11 55:18 60:7 62:21 63:18 64:7,17 66:7,13 68:12,14,21 69:15,22 70:7 78:18 79:17,21 88:10 89:3,9,10 93:1 95:20 96:15 97:6 99:4 101:1,6 102:5,6 105:8,10,11 106:7 107:4 108:5 109:17 113:9 117:5,18 119:21 120:4,22 121:6 123:13 130:17 133:6 137:9,13,14,15 139:18,19 146:17 147:19 155:22 166:13 168:2 169:21 170:16 172:12 173:12 175:12,13,14,16 177:10,12 179:17 180:9 181:17 182:6,12 183:9 184:22 186:7,20 187:13 193:11,12,15 194:5,16 201:13 202:17,20 204:13,14,19 206:15 208:3,13 209:1,16,20 210:9,15,20 211:16 213:9,12 217:13

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151:7,19,20 187:17 206:8,16 207:18 209:6,12 211:22 212:10,11 214:1,2,3 216:2 217:1,2,5,17,21 218:5,8,10,11 219:18 221:21 227:4 280:13 290:15 298:14,15,22 300:1 317:11,14 321:3 325:20 models 181:3 197:6 206:3,11,13,17 207:8,11,22 209:14,21 211:4,5,14 212:9 213:11,15 214:8 217:15 218:10 219:22 220:18,19 222:21 223:13 225:12,18 253:18 260:1,2,8 290:13 298:11,13,18 299:1 model-specific 177:1 modification 310:18 311:5 modified 173:18 modifying 295:14 Molvie 3:6 14:5 15:20 moment 40:7 281:22 Monday 239:15 243:10 244:11 257:15

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 310:4,5 314:7 people's 138:7 per 9:3 18:18 130:1 186:11 196:14 213:19 318:7 percent 21:13 79:20 161:4 198:5 199:12 206:16,17,18,19 209:2,5 218:13,22 219:3 227:12,13 277:15 percentage 67:4 197:22 198:1,3 206:12 207:11,17 209:21 214:14 216:10 217:22 223:15 249:6 260:1,6 320:11 325:21 percentage-wise 206:14 perform 18:8 30:5 56:16 105:6 114:9 121:22 144:8 193:20 performance 20:5,6 153:19 193:17 195:9,21 311:6 performed 15:18 21:20 161:7 performing 24:6 34:7 performs 169:16 perhaps 44:11 114:19 116:14 133:3 195:5 270:20

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 proceeding 329:3,4,5,7,9,10 process 7:7 10:7,8 13:10 15:5 17:4,8 22:16 30:9 59:5 73:14 82:9 84:12 89:1,2 91:9,21 92:11 94:20 101:15 102:10 115:3 142:18 160:13 173:13 188:10 197:4,8 226:2 230:17 233:22 257:1 261:22 314:6 319:14 322:19,21 323:17 324:13 325:2,11,14 326:7 processes 22:3 85:15 122:1 produce 12:19 164:15 197:19 produces 297:6 producing 276:12 296:5 298:10 299:3 product 3:6 12:21 15:18 21:2 23:11 30:19 31:12,13 33:9 48:10 52:4 54:6 62:2 69:11 75:3 76:4,7,10,17,22 79:2 83:9 84:21 85:2,8 87:11 89:9,13,22 90:11 92:8,11 96:20 111:5,21 112:8 120:1 122:10 139:10,11 142:5,6,8,19 143:9 146:1 150:1,2,4,17,19 151:1,8,22 152:20 153:16 154:3 155:21 161:11 163:12,17 165:10 166:16 168:19,20,21 169:14,15 170:8,9 173:6,9 177:12 178:6,11,14,15 182:2,5 185:22 187:7 188:5,19 191:18 193:16 194:7 195:7 196:8,14 205:11,12 206:7 208:2 209:19 211:15,20 212:16 213:7,19,22 214:10,15 218:12 219:6 221:16,17,19 222:1 248:13,21 275:1,16 276:9,20 277:15 279:13,19 282:17,19 286:19 289:6 290:19,20 291:1 294:21 295:15 297:7 298:9,10 299:2,12 301:5,9 303:17,20 304:4 305:11 308:13 310:1 314:13 325:2 production 13:3 77:4 132:6,9,11,15,17 ,20 137:8 155:10 195:20 280:12,19,20 283:17,19 285:22 286:20 287:22 292:14 294:4 299:6 302:10 313:10,13 324:17 327:13 productive 203:19 products 4:5,15,16 6:13 9:7 11:21 15:13 19:6 22:19 23:11,13 33:8 39:22 82:2 83:3,11 84:18 88:8 91:16 92:2 94:18 96:14 98:11,17,19 113:17 114:11 116:16 117:15,19 120:5,10 122:1 137:14,15 150:15 153:10,17 155:19 159:5,10 161:20 163:13,17 166:7,19 167:3,4,6,20,21 168:3,4,5,7,11,1 7 169:17 177:19 179:20 182:6 188:18 195:19 200:13 204:14 208:4 217:7 221:2,13,14 223:11 226:4 246:22 247:5 275:16,18 277:8 280:11 294:16 299:3 300:6 307:12 313:3 319:6 326:10 product's 180:14 200:6 Products 2:16 3:16 product-safe 248:16 product-specific 177:14 proficiency 104:11 144:19 proficient 5:19 101:18 103:22 108:14 program 12:2,6 15:8 18:6,17,22 19:5,7 21:14 22:11,15 25:1,2,3,15,22 26:10 29:19 32:2 33:5,6,7 34:15 35:4 36:1,15 39:17 41:6 42:18,19 44:9 46:3 47:14 48:21 49:2 54:21 61:1 67:8,16 68:3 83:18 84:4 85:10 86:13 87:2,7 91:13,14,22 95:7,9 96:17,19 97:7,22 98:7 100:2 102:16 103:18 106:9 110:17 111:7 113:2,12 115:22 116:5,13,18 123:22 131:6,13,21 132:6,18 134:7 135:1,4 138:14

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140:15,16 141:5,6,12,14 144:3,5 147:21 148:2 149:6 164:19 165:19,22 166:6 174:20 181:7,10 184:11 187:9 192:14 193:9,14 194:5 195:14 196:20 202:18 205:8 211:12 217:3 220:18 223:20 224:5 247:16,20 274:20,22 282:10 283:21,22 284:2 300:16 314:1,2,4 318:14 321:19 322:16 324:6,8,12 325:16 326:6,12,20 programs 26:6 31:10 34:19 36:11,13 37:1 42:20 44:15 45:13 95:22 102:3 105:16 114:7,14 115:7 118:12 122:17 124:11 142:7 146:3,18 147:19 192:18 193:16 194:15 195:6 196:3 199:4 209:7 211:7 223:19 227:9 313:19 progress 216:17 229:14,21 232:22 235:1 253:10,15 prohibitive 96:1

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 229:7 232:16 310:11 queue 92:9 quick 11:9 quicker 11:6 138:8 quickly 9:12 163:20 327:9 quiet 40:7 quite 17:22 31:5 47:8 63:19 84:6 115:4 141:16 214:1 327:1 328:1 quota 67:5 quoted 151:14 R rabbit 71:22 race 112:2 raise 14:8 255:19 raised 218:21 263:13 raises 23:19 raising 178:5 ran 145:13 random 83:10 117:4 195:18 211:8 283:7 326:1,4 randomly 318:3 range 8:7 9:1,17 12:19 50:1,3 159:4 185:2 325:2 ranges 9:15 ranging 23:11 rant 91:4 92:19 166:11 rate 5:5,7 9:20 202:3 rated 6:14 rather 12:22 76:16 90:22 91:1 94:21 111:18 128:2 155:13 158:10 234:12 243:12 249:19 rating 7:7,11,15,16 64:5 180:19 276:13,18 ratings 180:22 276:17 reach 16:16 282:19 reached 91:4 Reactions 10:3 reading 57:22 80:10 85:5 133:21 ready 199:16 227:16 233:1 273:2 real 116:14 221:10 249:8 280:17 281:15 308:11 reality 201:18 realization 169:15 realize 117:3 310:14 realized 321:9 really 6:18 23:1,5 28:8 30:13,21 32:15,16 40:15 54:14 57:11 59:15 68:14 69:14 70:13

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 referencing 124:5 195:14 referring 8:6 149:15 reflected 97:9 reflects 46:5 refreeze 214:6 refrigeration 2:7,11 3:14 34:15 39:21 45:2 77:4 183:13 refrigerator 169:21,22 170:19 171:1 reg 172:22 Regal 4:12 9:19 regard 135:14 regarding 14:12 83:7 199:19 regardless 25:2 189:3 247:13 regards 16:7 84:9 148:9 169:15 regional 286:9 register 39:22 180:20 registered 95:9 registration 35:19 registry 43:12 regs 40:18 49:19 55:11 169:20 204:10,15 211:17 216:18 217:18 247:12 294:22 295:3,7 296:18 310:4 regular 244:22 regulate 170:3 regulated 168:13 171:16,19,20 246:22 regulation 4:17 187:1 regulations 290:8 304:13 relatable 117:14 related 149:5 161:20 329:8 relationship 288:16 relative 215:14 relatively 200:5 reliability 166:3 reliable 38:4 165:20 relied 13:22 remain 12:10 remaining 4:3 74:3 227:15 228:7 remark 54:5 remember 87:11 217:14,20 272:4 290:8 remove 56:18 156:13 157:20 removed 230:4 276:20 removing 50:5 reopen 235:22 repeatability 32:12 replaces 127:22 reply 238:21 report 40:13 56:20 63:13 64:8 66:15,18 141:20 145:10 147:12 232:18 233:1 234:11 287:4 290:9 291:12 292:17 293:6 299:7,8,9,10 302:8,9 303:14 306:21 Reported 1:16 Reporter 160:3 191:5 310:7 329:1,2,15 reporting 1:17 124:10 229:13 reports 46:7 119:1 283:13 represent 12:12 17:17 representation 17:16 30:12 representations 189:2 represented 13:17 79:2,8 representing 15:20 16:4 request 7:9,10 43:17,18 113:18 134:4,9 289:13 require 13:11 20:20 21:4 24:5,7,9 43:21 93:8 114:20 126:3,8 129:22 130:2 143:21 198:13 203:16 290:9 required 13:9,10

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82:12 96:16,18 101:18 108:3 116:17 118:2,10 121:2 124:10 131:11 139:14 174:16 179:16 181:9 319:15 runs 47:19 rush 224:13 Rusty 3:17 4:7,11 6:10 9:14 10:5 76:1 77:2 81:6 83:19 87:10 96:4,13 195:12 241:6,7 263:17,18 319:10 Rusty's 280:7 S S.W 1:7 Sachs 3:9 9:13 17:3,15 22:9 26:4 27:1 42:5 46:12 50:11,17 56:20 57:4,8 59:3,9,14 76:20 77:15 79:4 80:3,9 88:3 92:16 111:15 112:2,6 135:2,12,15,18,2 1 169:2,7 170:3 195:4 199:9 200:1,15,22 201:16 202:3 203:21 215:5,10 216:2,11,19 225:21 226:9 243:2,12 250:1 258:12 259:5 280:4 282:14 283:1,5,8,11 285:9,13 286:3

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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### Capita l Reporting Company

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